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Buckland Wood is no ordinary wood. This is magical temperate rainforest, a rare habitat not just in the UK but in the world. Cloaked in lush lichens and mosses, dotted with stone walls and bridges and with a beautiful river rambling through, it already looks and feels like a special place. But the Trust has big plans for its future. Join us to explore with rainforest guru Sam, who tells us about the bid to restore this globally important site and its huge potential to connect people with nature, store carbon and boost biodiversity. Hear why temperate rainforests are so special, along with pine marten reintroductions, backpacks on beetles and much more! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: For today's woodland walk, we are heading into the rainforest, but I am not going very far. Well, I'm going quite far, but not to the Amazon, or South America. I'm going to to the temperate rainforest, which isn't as well known, but is actually even rarer than the tropical rainforest. It's also known as Atlantic or Celtic rainforest. And as I said, exceptionally rare. You do find it on the West Coast of Scotland, North and West Wales, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, parts of Northern Ireland, which sounds like a long list, but it really isn't. And what's wonderful actually is that Britain is really the place in the world to find these things. We have a very high proportion of the global area of temperate rainforest. I'm heading to Devon to see some temperate rainforests. Anyway, enough from me. Let's go talk to an expert about Devon's temperate and exciting rainforest.  Sam: So I'm Sam Manning. I'm the project officer for the Woodland Trust Rainforest Recovery Project. We are here in Buckland Wood, which is a new Woodland Trust acquisition on Dartmoor in the Dart Valley.  Adam: Fantastic. And it's it's super new because the place we came down didn't seem to have a sign on it or anything. So when did the Trust acquire this?  Sam: So we've literally just acquired this this month and it's an extension really of two other sites that we own in the Dart Valley, Ausewell Wood, which we bought about five years ago and Grey Park Wood, which we've owned for a couple of decades.  Adam: Right. And and what are we gonna do? Where are you taking me today?  Sam: So we're going to have a walk around the wood and I'm going to show you some of the aspects of the restoration work that we have planned here, we're going to go down to the Dart River, which is a really special river. It's 26 miles long. Very, very ecologically biodiverse, very important for, in terms of temperate rainforest, and look at how we can restore that through various different natural flood management methods.  Adam: Right. Lead on, Sir. So you already mentioned the keyword temperate rainforest. Is that what this is?  Sam: Yeah. So this is sort of prime what we call hyper-oceanic temperate rainforest.  Adam: You just have to say that slowly. Hypo what?  Sam: Hyper-oceanic.   Adam: Hyper-oceanic, OK.  Sam: Yes. So there's there's two different kinds of temperate rainforest broadly. There's southern oceanic, which is any rainforest woodland that receives over 1.5 metres of rainfall a year.  Adam: Right.  Sam: Or hyper-oceanic and that is 1.8 metres of rainfall and above, so slightly techy and scientific. But what it means is is that you get two distinctly different communities of lichens or lower plants, which is what makes these woodlands particularly special.  Adam: Sorry, I've already forgotten. Are we in the rain type of temperate rainforest that gets more rain or less rain?  Sam: More rain.  Adam: More rain.   Sam: Yeah it rains a lot here.   Adam: So that's the the non-oceanic one gets more rain.  Sam: The hyper-oceanic gets a lot of rain, yeah.  Adam: Hyper-oceanic. OK, so you can see I'm a poor student. OK. So, but luckily extraordinary, I mean, it's a bit there's a chill, but it's it has been lovely weather and it's definitely dry today.  Sam: Hmm yeah, this is this is quite strange for Dartmoor really, I think this is sort of the driest March in 60 years or something. So we are we are beginning to experience much, much drier springs and summers, but one of the functions of these rainforests is they are very, very good at producing their own rain and and in 2020, during the COVID lockdown, there was a real blue sky dry sort of drought level day in that March-April period. And I remember walking through this valley in the middle of the day and there was a thunderstorm and that was occurring nowhere else even in Devon or the wider country. And that's because they're effectively these sponges that accumulate a lot of rain in winter, store them, and then produce them more in summer.  Adam: Wow. And and I mean also we we think of rainforests as basically Brazil I suppose. But but we have temperate rainforests in the UK and my understanding is, I mean, they're extraordinarily rare on a, not just the UK, a global level. Just give us a sense of how special and unusual these environments are.  Sam: Yeah, that's right. So they're they're found only on 1% of the earth's land surface. So they are rarer by area than tropical rainforest.  Adam: Right. Do you happen to know? Sorry, are we going down there?   Sam: Down there yeah.   Adam: OK, so 1% temperate rainforests. Do you know what tropical rainforests are to give us a sense of proportion?  Sam: I actually don't know that, but I suspect it's probably around somewhere between 10-15%.  Adam: OK, well, I'm not gonna hold you to that *both laugh* but but that gives us a sort of sense of just how rare these are and tropical rainforests are fairly rare anyway, but OK. So these are very, very unusual environments. And what are you trying to do here then?  Sam: Well, a lot of these temperate rainforests are ancient woodlands, but they are plantations on ancient woodlands, so they are woodlands that have existed in perpetuity for as long as records go back. But a lot of them, as you can see here, have been coniferised, so they would have been cleared of their native tree species like oak, to be replaced by non-native timber crops from places like the Pacific Northwest, which which that's also ironically a temperate rainforest landscape, but those species are not co-adapted to the species we have here. So you you get these plantations that are very, very unbiodiverse, very dark, very shading and really don't work in tandem with a lot of the light-demanding rainforest species that we have, like rowans, hawthorns, oaks, that kind of thing. Of those sites I've talked about, almost half of it is conifer.  Adam: So your your first job, ironically, is to take trees out?  Sam: Well there'll be a sort of two-pronged approach really of using natural processes to diversify the forest, make it more structured, diverse. But we will need to intervene at certain times, particularly if we have really, really rare species. So in Ausewell for example, there's a species of lichen called bacidia subturgidula, so it's got a mad Latin name,   Adam: Wow, OK I'm definitely not saying that *laughs*  Sam: *laughs* But that species, for example, we have a quarter of the entire world's population of that species of lichen in Ausewell.  Adam: Right in Ausewell, which is quite a small place.  Sam: Yeah, exactly. That's about 100 hectares, so...  Adam: And that's a quarter of the global population of this lichen is in that...  Sam: Of that species, yeah. So when it comes to that, it's really about almost surgically intervening.  Adam: That's interesting. Let's let's carry on, you you better lead on, I've no idea where I'm going. So but that's interesting because I I can see planting trees, I've never heard of people actually planting like them, I didn't think that was even possible.  Sam: Yeah. So we call it translocation and and that's really only a last a last sort of nuclear option really when it comes to lichen conservation, if we have a tree where they have a really, really rare form of, a rare population of a species, then moving that to another tree may be the difference between that going extinct or not. But here now we've had this happen, what we're going to be doing is seeding it with those rainforest tree species to start to get that regeneration and there's loads over here.  Adam: What I'm still not clear about is why is the rainforest so special? It might be, oh it gets a lot of rain, who cares? A place gets a lot of rain, so does Wales, so does a lot of bits of London. It's clearly something special, it's not the trees, so what, why is having a temperate rainforest actually a good thing, what makes it special?  Sam: Well, there's there's there's a few different things. One of them is, and this is the real key one we focus on, is the biodiversity value. So the real bad, Britain in general is quite a wildlife poor place. We have quite a low species diversity, but these rainforests are absolute wells of biodiversity globally. The key ones are these epiphytes, so we're talking about lichens, bryophytes, so those are the mosses, liverworts and hornworts. Britain has over 2,000 species of lichen, it's one of the most biodiverse places on Earth in terms of lichen species, so we're really punching above our weight in terms of biodiversity in that sense, and they're only really found in these temperate rainforest habitats.  Adam: And lichen, I love lichen, and it's a real sign of air purity and everything, they're beautiful. How much do they support, like wildlife? I'm not aware of animals feeding off lichen very much, I don't think it has much nutrients in it?  Sam: Not too much at a macro level, but if you were to delve into that microscopic world, they are absolute keystone species in terms of forming the bedrock for so many invertebrates for so much sort of microbes. But they're also functionally, and this is something I'm I'm really passionate about, is looking at these forests in terms of what they can give to us functionally and the environment functionally, they are really good at fixing nitrogen. They're very, very good at fixing carbon, but but so in terms, that's what that's what makes temperate rainforest really good in terms of climate change mitigation is they hold that water, but they also are incredible carbon stores far more carbon is stored in these forests than traditional forests in the UK.  Adam: And that's lichens playing a big role in this?  Sam: A huge part, yeah, because of the pure, like the biomass of those lichens and mosses.  Adam: Ohh interesting. OK, so where are we going?  Sam: So I would quite like to go down to that river.  Adam: I'd love to go down to the river! Can I just ask, we're not going that way, are we??  Sam: No, I think we're gonna, that's one we may drive down, I think.  Adam: Drive down there?? No no we're not going to drive down there, that's not possible! *both laugh*  Sam: Yeah, we might have to go to a scenic detour around.   Adam: OK, well, there let's go down to the river. You have to lead. You look like...  Sam: So I think if we head up back to the car, shoot down, yeah.  Adam: OK. Ohh I see. OK, OK. But we're not driving down this this hill.  Sam: No, no, I think let's go down to the main Dart actually and then you can...  Adam: OK. And then get and get back, OK. Brilliant. We have come down to the river, remind me what the river is called?   Sam: This is the Webburn.   Adam: The Webburn, which leads into the Dart. We are on proper Hobbit territory now. A moss-covered stone bridge over the Webburn. We passed a little a beautiful little cottage, actually there's a number of beautiful cottages here. So explain a bit about where we are.  Sam: So we're stood on the Webburn, the Webburn watercourse and just behind us is the confluence of where it enters the Dart River and this kind of where it feeds into our aspirations for the restoration of the site. It's what many people would consider to be quite a natural looking river or natural looking watercourse. But this really as you can see it's very straight, it's very cut down into into the ground. So we call that incision and that's a product of centuries of draining and of artificial domestication of this watercourse to allow the land around it to be drier, which makes it more kind of productive for forestry.  Adam: So that's not natural?   Sam: No.  Adam: Are you gonna do anything about that? I feel like a teacher, ‘are you going to do anything about that?'!  Sam: *laughs* That that is the plan.  Adam: How how do you change, I mean, the river has cut, therefore quite a a deep edge into the land. What would you be able to do to to change that then?  Sam: Yeah. So a couple of years ago I went out to the Pacific Northwest, Canada, Vancouver Island to see their temperate rainforest and have a look at how old growth sort of ancient temperate rainforests function, but also how they restore them. And they, I asked them to take me to a river that was their best example of a really healthy rainforest river with really good salmon populations with great biodiversity that would have been unaffected by humans. And they took me to a place called Lost Shoe Creek. And and from the bottom of the watercourse where it entered the sea to the head waters, it was, you couldn't see the water. It was absolutely covered in wood, so huge trees that had fallen in, trees bank to bank, pinned against the bank. And what that does is it creates a much more dynamic river system that doesn't go in a straight line, but also holds back a lot of the gravel with the sediment and the silt that in this kind of river is making its way to the ocean. And causing a lot of damage.  Adam: So it's allowing or maybe placing actual dead trees into into the water and we can see one tree's already there, presumably that just naturally fell in.  Sam: That's right. Yeah. So if we left this for 1,000 years, it would fill, it would be effectively be a giant log jam, and we'd start to get a lot of that naturalised process happening. And then you get much more biodiversity because there's more invertebrates in the river, there's more shelter for fish and birds, there's more habitat. But what we're effectively planning on doing is is doing something what people call stage zero restoration, so taking,  accelerating that that thousand-year process and taking it back to a more naturalised river.  Adam: It's such a a spot. I think it's time for a bit of social media video, so I'll film that and you can see that on the Woodland Trust and my sites, and then we'll crack on. Sorry, I know this is really important, but this is an amazing fallen tree over a drystone wall covered in moss, I mean, I just had to stop for a moment. Look, you talked about lichen. I know, I ask you a question then stop you answering it *both laugh*. I love this lichen, it's all on this tree. It is really, really beautiful.  Sam: So this is called seastorm lichen which is one of the few lichens that has actually a romantic sort of English name that isn't Latin.  Adam: Wow. Well, very cool. Whilst you're talking, I'm gonna take a photo. OK. Yeah, go on, seastorm lichen.   Sam: Yeah, and and so a lot of the lichens will, as you can see, grow on the branches where the light is greater. So there's almost a canopy world of biodiversity up there, and what we're doing by increasing the light levels is, is drawing these lichens down to the forest floor by increasing the light levels. But this is a really, really good example of the kind of levels of deadwood we actually want to aspire to. So in, as you can see, in most of the forest, it's completely denuded of deadwood. So we'd be lucky if we get sort of 5 cubic metres of wood per hectare. In the forest of, the temperate rainforests of Canada, they have sort of 600 cubic metres a hectare of deadwood. So you you could barely even move through their forest.  Adam: And that's super, because often people want the deadwood cleared cause you go, ‘oh well it's untidy', but that's a sort of oasis of of biodiversity.  Sam: That's right. It's a whole layer of ecology that we're missing from our forests. And we recently did a study on something called the blue ground beetle, which is a an endemic rare species to temperate rainforests. We didn't know where they went in the day, so we didn't really know anything about them, they're very elusive. They come out at night, walk up the trees, and they reflect the moon off of their blue, kind of shiny carapace. They're our biggest beetle. So we did a study with Exeter University where we put GPS tracking backpacks on them.  Adam: On a beetle?  Sam: On a beetle, to find out where they went. And lo and behold, we found that they were going into these deadwood habitats and so it just it just shone a light on how important increasing deadwood in these forests is for all of those species.  Adam: Amazing. All right. I I do encourage you to follow the Woodland Trust's social media, Insta and all the rest of them and my Bluesky and Twitter or X or whatever it is you wanna do. And I'm now gonna take a photo which hopefully you'll see on any of that social media. So do follow them all. And we're going to take a pause as I pose *laughs*. Right, I'm back from my photographic expedition. Right. So you can answer the question again now about this public debate about access and and what have you. Go on, you lead on whilst we're talking.  Sam: So yeah, Dartmoor is really kind of the centre of gravity for a wider story around public, an increasing demand from the public to access land for wellbeing, recreation, connection to nature, that has been kind of growing here, particularly in this area.  Adam: Right.  Sam: There are, I think we actually sorry, we do need to go that way, I think they've blocked the path.  Adam: OK fair enough.  Sam: We're not having to scramble.  Adam: And I think we're going back to where we came from. Alright. Although that path there looks blocked.   Sam: This one looks good. Yeah.  Adam: Oh OK.  Sam: Go through this end.   Adam: Through the little stone wall. OK. Ruby's following doing social media. Ohh OK. Yeah, sorry, carry on.  Sam: So, I suppose the concern of some people might be that increasing footfall, public access to these really important fragments of temperate rainforest, it could have a damaging effect on the biodiversity here. But the reality is that in order for people to connect with, understand and care about nature, they need to have access to it. And so we need to bring people into these habitats in a sensitive and considered way to educate people about them, but the other key thing is we need to expand these habitats. So we're part of something called the South West Rainforest Alliance. And our goal collectively is to increase the amount of temperate rainforest in Devon and Cornwall, to triple it by 2050.  Adam: OK. I mean that's worth pausing on that for a moment. That's an extraordinary task. I mean it sounds a bit, I have to say I'm a bit sceptical about that, it sounds like you plucked that out the air. How on earth would you get to tripling the cover you've got?  Sam: Well, we think we can do that mostly through buffering existing temporate rainforest, so planting around them which can then make those bigger, better, more connected, but also just by introducing trees into farmed landscapes but not in a way that damages the farming. So agroforestry. But also the inclusion of hedgerows that connect up those fragments and there's been a lot of work that's being done currently in partnership with Plymouth University to model how we would do that effectively.  Adam: And the other thing that strikes me when we talk about ancient woodland, we're talking about, well, we can't create ancient woodlands, the clue's in the name, it's got to be ancient. It is different for temperate rainforests, isn't it? These things which I've heard about are achievable in a relatively short period of time. Is that right?  Sam: That's right. So we think we can create new temperate rainforest within our lifetime. So within a kind of 40-50 year woodland establishment phase and as part of the Rainforest Recovery Project, we have a strand of work that we're calling the temperate rainforest creation trials and that includes long term scientific research to tell us how best we can create rainforest the quickest. So is it doing closed canopy woodlands like this or is it individual trees in farmland? Or is it open space woodlands or maybe even natural regeneration?  Adam: Amazing. We're by the river. Let's move on with our tales from the riverbank. One thing I I wanted to ask you, I arrived here last night. And I met well, an old friend of mine called Chris Salisbury, who runs a local sort of adventure, an ecological company, taking people for adventures in the woods and telling stories and all sorts of really interesting things, and he was telling me two things that he's noted. One is the reintroduction of pine martens which I think is talked about, but also he's seen wild boar in these woods and I've never heard of that. Are those, have have you come across those stories?  Sam: Yes, so we were actually involved in the reintroduction of pine martens last year and that was a partnership between us and Devon Wildlife Trust and various other charities. And and that was a sort of very controlled planned, strategic reintroduction of a species that's been really successful. We've brought the public along with us, and they're now part of that increasingly biodiverse and resilient temperate rainforest landscape.  Adam: Right before we move on to wild boar, just educate me, what is a pine marten? Not sure, not entirely sure I know what one is.  Sam: A pine marten is a mustelid, so it's in the same family as sort of the badger, the stoat, the weasel.   Adam: Right, what's it look like?  Sam: It's it's sort of the size of a small cat, it's brown with a white bib and it looks quite a lot like a weasel, but it's larger, but they're very much arboreal mammals, so they spend most of their time in the trees.  Adam: And were they native to this land?   Sam: Yes they were.  Adam: Hunted out were they?  Sam: Hunted to extinction for their pelts and and things like that. Yeah.  Adam: So you're reintroducing them. How successful has that been?  Sam: That's been really successful. So we've reintroduced 15 animals to Dartmoor last year and we think that that will be enough of a seed population for them to start spreading naturally now.  Adam: OK. And I've heard about what, the reintroduction in other parts of the country of pine martens. Wild boar. A a harder issue I would have thought ‘cause these are quite big beasts?   Sam: Yes.  Adam: Did, did any, presumably the Trust didn't introduce them? No.  Sam: No. So they haven't been, in the same way as pine martens were, formally introduced. There's been more of a sort of natural creep, or in some cases, so there's a term that people use now called ‘beaver bombing', which which people use completely straight faced in a lot of circles now. And that is effectively guerilla reintroduction of species.  Adam: Right. OK. So these are just people who feel that they should be rewilded and just did it without any any authority or talking to the local community they just brought them in?  Sam: Exactly without going through that sort of more defined process.  Adam: And and look, clearly this is not a Woodland Trust policy, so I'm not asking you to defend it, but but the effect of that, I mean, have you noticed anything?  Sam: I think, I mean, it's a huge subject, but I think in general, if you don't bring communities along with you by educating them, by mitigating the effect of a species, it it can damage the movement in in the longer term. The other thing I'd say about boar and those larger sort of herbivores, which would have been a really important part of our ecosystem for diversifying them and keeping that process going, they will really struggle unless we have bigger, better, more connected woodlands that are more natural anyway.  Adam: Right. I understand. So we're just going through talking about this being the rainforest, but it has been amazingly dry in the spring and now you can hear that in the crunchy undergrowth of very dry leaves. You're gonna, I'm I'm an idiot anyway, but I'm concentrating on too many things so I've forgotten the name of the river for the third time *laughs*.  Sam: It's the Webburn.  Adam: The Webburn, why can't I remember the Webburn? All right. We've come down to the Webburn, to the riverbank side. It's beautifully clear this water, isn't it? There I mean it, it's it's wonderful clear. I so want to stand in that and then I'll have wet feet for the rest of the day and the journey back to London. So I'm not going to do that. How much of a threat is this sort of environment under?  Sam: So temperate rainforest once covered about 20% of the UK and they would have clothed our western seaboard which receives that amazing sort of oceanic rainfall and temperature we've been talking about. That's been reduced now to about 2% in the UK.   Adam: OK, from 20 to 2%?  Sam: From 20 to 2, so 90% loss.   Adam: Over what sort of period?  Sam: So we're talking about millennia really. So this is they would have been at their zenith about 5,000, 6,000 years ago during the Bronze Age and that progressive multi-generation story of increasing farming, of draining, of forestry, has led to the fragmentation that we see today. In Devon and Cornwall, we think it would have covered about 75%. That's now been reduced to about 8%. So a similar 90% loss both regionally and nationally.  Adam: And are you optimistic that that's about to change? Are we now seeing a different story?  Sam: I feel really optimistic, but mostly that's because I think we're facing a lot of these holistic problems at the moment around the biodiversity crisis, around climate change, and I think rainforests are an actually incredibly cheap, scalable way of restoring nature, which will help us with the biodiversity crisis, but also protect communities from climate change. By doing some of this rewetting work, by increasing increasing tree cover, we can massively reduce flooding and massively mitigate the effect of drought on our farming and on our communities as it gets worse. We are hoping to raise £2.8 million to help us achieve the goals we have here and and the site will be open once we've achieved that goal towards the end of the year. And people can go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest to find more about that appeal.  Adam: So just repeat that website again so if people want, if they, if you've got your pen or your computer keyboard ready, here is the website to go to.  Sam: Thats woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest  Adam: And they can learn learn more about it, but also contribute there can they?  Sam: That's right. Yeah. And if they want to learn more about the Rainforest Recovery Project, we are launching a website this week called rainforestrecovery.org.uk.  Adam: So by the time you hear this podcast, all of that will be available to you at the moment I can edit it all together. It is an amazing, amazing site. I am really privileged to be here. What a wonderful place. Sam, thank you very much indeed.  Sam: You're welcome.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

As property managers, you know how important communication is. Building solid relationships and creating trust is crucial in the industry, especially when trying to bring on new clients and doors. In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Sam Wakefield from Close it Now to talk about how you can level up your sales game to close more deals at a higher price point. You'll Learn [00:54] Vendor and Property Manager Relationships [09:43] Why You Attract Cheapo Clients [15:33] Building Trust in Sales [21:14] Shifting Perception: It's Not A, It's B [27:43] Learning to Improve Your Sales at DoorGrow Live 2025 Quotables “Truly all that sells is just communication.” “The second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are.” “If we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner.” “As business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sam: A lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:00:07] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and it's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:00:14] Jason: All right. I am trying a new platform today. This is Jason Hull and I am a property management growth expert. If you're not familiar with me, I help grow and scale property management companies and I am really good at that. And so our company's DoorGrow and we are the world leaders of growing and scaling property management businesses. [00:00:35] Jason: I've helped thousands of property managers do that. And today my guest is Sam Wakefield. Hanging out here with Sam. Sam, welcome to the show.  [00:00:44] Sam: Thanks for having me on, man. I'm glad to be here.  [00:00:46] Jason: Hey, good to have you. So, I'm really excited to get into this. We had some really nice dialogue back and forth. You coach. [00:00:54] Jason: Well, I'll let you tell. What group, category of people do you coach and you help with them with sales and closing more deals, so.  [00:01:01] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we do sales training and basically sales systems, whole operation systems within companies, but mostly sales focused for home services. So everything from HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and then even outside of that. Garage doors, or you name it. If someone improves a home, then we help the communication side of all of those companies.  [00:01:27] Jason: Got it. So in my industry, property management people would call those vendors. That's usually what they call them. They're like, "these are the vendors." And so we thought it was fun. I went on your podcast, we had this really fun dialogue. [00:01:39] Jason: I highly recommend you go check out Sam's episode with Jason Hull and go check that out. We were going back and forth because we had done a survey each to our audiences, like what's frustrating about HVAC companies and what's frustrating about property management companies. Right. And just seeing the disconnect that existed there. [00:01:56] Jason: Which was interesting. So, before we get into this, I want to read a quick message from our sponsor. This episode's sponsored by KRS SmartBooks. Do you have properties manage, and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you, with 15 plus years of real estate knowhow and skills in AppFolio, Yardi, and more imagine monthly reports magically appearing, and zero accounting stress. Sound good? Head to krsbooks.com to book your free discovery call, integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance, that's KRS SmartBooks, and that's K as in Kansas, R as in Rogers, S as in Sam. Sam. All right, so cool. Now let's get into this. [00:02:45] Jason: So we're going to talk about closing deals, but why don't you give us my audience a little bit of background. How did you get into sales and then starting your own company, helping people with sales, and like, how'd you how did Close it Now come to be?  [00:03:00] Sam: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for that question. So, I've spent almost 20 years now in home services. [00:03:05] Sam: Most of my time has been in HVAC. I've done solar. I've done a lot of different trades over the years and, you know, so I launched the Close it Now company in 2019 because I really just recognized a place where there was not a lot of modern training because truly all that sells is just communication. [00:03:26] Sam: You know, it's how do we communicate clearer and in a way where we can educate so somebody can understand, one, what we're talking about, and two, why they should care and how it's going to make a difference in their life. So at the essence of that, so I was looking for some more modern training for my people at my company that I had at the time, and I didn't find anything out there. [00:03:48] Sam: So I just said, well, now we have a space for, you know, I have communication skills. I can train people. So that's when I launched the company in 2019 and so much of my career built up to that point of, and specifically how it affects here and why I'm here today. You know, I've worked with so many property management companies and individuals across 20 years of doing this. Yeah. So I've definitely learned a lot of best practices and a lot of the things not to do, you know? Got it. I all own my mistakes as well as, you know, coming across maybe property managers that I wouldn't work with again. Right. Yeah. So from all of that experience, you know, I started the training company, so I work with those home service companies to communicate better. [00:04:33] Sam: You know, a lot of it is, you know, of course, working directly with homeowners. But also there's a huge portion of all of those companies that, you know, rely on it and need property management companies to, you know, really help them stay in business and in turn they can turn around and, you know, help those property management companies to efficiently take care of properties. [00:04:58] Sam: But there's always seems to be this kind of struggle of, you know, that back and forth. So that's obviously why we're here today is a big part of that. But that's some of my history. I've been doing it 20 years. I started Close it Now six years or in, coming up on... yeah, April this year, next month is six years anniversary. [00:05:16] Sam: Nice. Of the company. And it's been a fun ride and we've definitely helped lots and lots of organizations to you know, to grow in a way.  [00:05:24] Jason: You're helping them close it now. All right. Yeah. Got it. All right. So you're just, you're helping these vendors close more deals, right? [00:05:31] Jason: So, property managers, I think would love to hear. You're on the other side of this relationship between property managers and vendors. What have you seen and what's the general feedback that you're noticing of the property management industry? What's kind of the vendor's perspective? [00:05:46] Jason: Because I know property managers, they get frustrated with vendors, right? They're like, "oh, the vendors like say you need something when you don't and like they don't like, it's difficult to reach them or this or whatever." Right. What are some of the complaints and gripes about property management companies? [00:06:03] Sam: Yeah. Complaints and gripes about property management companies. One of the big ones is, a lot of it is kind of the same thing is lack of communication. Okay. That's always one of the biggest complaints that comes up is, you know, we will get, you know, say someone, a property manager will call in for us to go evaluate a property. [00:06:21] Sam: We'll take an air conditioning issue or something like that, so we'll show up and then we're trying to call ahead. There's no clear information was given on who to call ahead to. Then we show up to the appointment, maybe the tenant's there, maybe not. A lot of times they're not there. [00:06:36] Sam: Okay. Then we can get ahold of the property manager to even get in the place. So now we're like dancing around in the circle of, okay, who do we contact? You get frustrated, move on to the next call, then the property manager calls and "Well, why'd you leave? Somebody was there." [00:06:50] Sam: Well, nobody was there. And so all of this just seems to happen very often. [00:06:55] Sam: Too often. Yeah. So it creates a stereotype. When the stereotype is created, that means of course there's a reason for it. Yeah. And so this is one of the big ones is the lack of communication. And I know that I've heard that the other direction as well. But so that's one of the things I hear the most. [00:07:11] Jason: Yeah. Got it. Yeah, so I'm sure when a vendor finds a property manager that does communicate effectively that there's clarity in that communication happening, and they've got good systems in place. The tenant's there, the tenant understands what's going on. Everybody's informed. Then those can be really great relationships to have. [00:07:34] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. Those are, you know, the last the last organization I was at, I was with them, I was a sales manager and trainer for six years there. And I went through about 18 different property management companies to find two to three that were worth working with. Wow. And that was, you know, just sadly. We were always open to when a property management company came to us and we're like, "Hey, we, you know, we need you to do some work. We're looking for a new vendor." We're like, "sure. Absolutely. We'll try you out as well as you're trying us out." Right. But sadly, you know, the two or three that we did find great relationships with. They were fantastic relationships because yeah, we, you know, part of my ethics is our team was like, we will show up on time no matter what. [00:08:19] Sam: Right? We always do what we say. We will never, you know, recommend something that's not verifiable from our, you know, from our testing. We're not going to just guess at this because we're not guessing with anybody's, you know? Yeah. Investment. And at the same time when we, you know, say we're going to do the work, we do the work, and we show up to do the work, we say we're going to. [00:08:43] Sam: So that was my ethics statement I always led with. And then basically I would ask the property management company, can I expect the same thing from you guys? Right? And sure enough, the second that we met in the middle and said, yes, this is how we want to do business, those relationships were always the very best ones because sure, were we a few more dollars than the other contractor down the street? Sure. Yes. But we showed up when we said we were going to and we did the right work right the first time. And so, right. That's a big part of that disconnect, I think, is it seems like so many you know, a lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:09:22] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and. It's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:09:30] Jason: You know, property managers have the same sort of problem is that a lot of people that are looking for a property manager are just looking for the cheapest price. [00:09:38] Jason: And they hate that. They're like, "we're not all the same." Right. So I, yeah, I think it's really important. I think this is dictated by the morals, the ethics, and the values of the business owner. It's always a top down thing. And so if the business owner is a cheapo, they attract cheapo clients and they deal with vendors through this cheapo lens, and this is where there's going to be a lot of mess and a lot of communication issues, and a lot of times the business owner, and this goes for any business and any industry, has a blind spot to the fact that they're cheap. But they're, you know, you're a cheapo if you're the person that's always looking for the stupid coupon code every time you buy everything online, you're always like hunting for that like. I don't have time to do that. [00:10:21] Jason: Like that's a massive waste of my time to go find, save 10% on some stupid a hundred dollars thing online, right? Right. Like, Ooh, I'm searching around. Right. Oh, I saved $10 even though I could have made a hundred thousand dollars. Like if I just like built something awesome, right? So I think there's a mindset issue is that these property managers or vendor business owners are not valuing their time enough. [00:10:45] Jason: If you value your time, you value other people's time. You then show up on time. You then like try to make sure, like your schedule is tight, you want to make sure your schedule is full. Like you, because you value your time and you feel that it's important. And if you really value your time enough as a person, you get things like assistance. [00:11:03] Jason: You get team members, like you get support because your time is so valuable that you want to go buy other people's time because it's less valuable than your time. Right, and this is how we scale our businesses over time is we are buying other people's time that are like they're willing to trade and give up their life chunks of their life for money. [00:11:24] Jason: And as business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable. And so I think there's a mindset thing that we have to not be cheap. We have to operate with integrity, and then our team members need to have these values instilled in them, and if we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner. [00:11:45] Jason: And if we don't build the right culture, we then don't have longevity in our business. We don't get return business, we don't get return clients. We don't get to have that really good vendor to continue to work with. We don't get to have that property owner continue to want to work with us, right? [00:12:00] Jason: Because we have showcased that we are not on top of things, or that we don't have the right values or that we don't have healthy mindset. And so I feel like. At the foundation of everything. It always comes back to mindset. A lot of times  [00:12:13] Sam: I a hundred percent agree with that. It, you know, it's funny that you're kind of started this conversation going down this path. [00:12:19] Sam: This is something that's been a very basically a soapbox for me, a big hot button. Yeah. You know, when I'm coaching... [00:12:26] Sam: jump on that soapbox, Sam. Let's go.  [00:12:27] Sam: Yeah. When I'm coaching and training people lately, especially at this last week especially... yeah. You know, I'm training people with sales and that type of focus, and they, of course, people always come to me, "Hey, how do I overcome these sales objections?" [00:12:43] Sam: You know, somebody says, "I want to get three bids, or somebody says, your price is too high, I want to shop around, or I need to think about it." Yeah. And instead of just going straight to, "well, here's the word track and how to handle these objections." Yeah. We always start with: anytime that you find a trend in your life, [00:13:00] Sam: so if you're getting the same consistent objection, say somebody's getting every single time they get to the end of their appointment and the homeowner or whoever they're talking to says, "I want to think about it." It's like the second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are. [00:13:17] Sam: I would be willing to bet that person does the same thing when they shop. So then no wonder you're getting every single one of your clients is telling you, "I want to think about it." Or if when you shop, do you ask for say, "oh, I've got to get some three bids on this thing. I got to look around." Yeah. Well, no wonder the people you're selling to always have to get three bids because we attract who we are. Yeah. And it starts right here in the mind. And it's incredible how that works.  [00:13:43] Jason: Yeah. because if we're anxious, if we have that energetic sort of anxiety of that, like things are, it's expensive, and we go into that trying to sell it to somebody. Then they can feel that and we present it differently. And so we're like, "here's the price." And like, yeah, and it's worth it. And they can just, there's so many little subtle clues they pick up on that, Hey, this seems a little high. And because sometimes like if you're presenting to somebody and they're not what I call a cheapo, there's three types of buyers, cheapos, normals, and premiums I call them. [00:14:16] Jason: And normals are like, you typically like 60%. They're like the majority, 61%. The smallest group are usually the premium buyers, supposedly. But the idea is this: if you're a premium buyer and I present a price and I'm not even going to like flinch telling you about it, I'm like, "yeah, we've got this and this is what it costs and this," and they're going to go, "oh, this person feels really confident." [00:14:36] Jason: And it's just energetically how we present it. There's no like, "Hey, I'm trying to prep you for this price, you know, reveal because it's going to hurt a little bit." Right. Or if they just have the confidence and they know they're expensive, they might even just say, "Hey, we're one of the most expensive, but we're also one of the best. Let me tell you about your options." Right? So maybe they start with a pre-frame like that, but either way, they have this confidence that they know they have value and that it's worth it, and then they present it like that, then people would go, oh, okay, but if you have that anxiety deep down related to price and you know, you're this person if you're always looking for the coupon code or the discount code or you're trying to find the cheapest way to do something, then you've got a bit of that going on. [00:15:21] Jason: Because that's your identity. And so I've noticed this. Like in order to get people to be better salespeople, I can't just give them tactics. I have to give them identity. And so, and this is why my greatest sales hack, I call the Golden Bridge Formula. It's like it's the most authentic way to sell, which is your personal why connected to the business why connected to the prospect's why. Because we always trust motives. And the default assumption in sales, if I don't know your motive and you're trying to sell to me, is you want my money. [00:15:54] Sam: Right.  [00:15:54] Jason: And if I think that's your only motive is you want my money and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get that, then you're probably maybe even willing to be unethical in order to get that might be the assumption. [00:16:05] Jason: Right? So that's kind of the default assumption in sales. And so to correct that, if I tell somebody, "Hey. I'm Jason Hull. My personal why is to inspire others to love true principles. And so what that means is I love sharing what works and learning what works and teaching to others. I would do that for free, for fun, and so I created DoorGrow and our why at DoorGrow is to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:16:27] Jason: And so if our whole belief system is around helping people transform their businesses. So that allows me to basically feed my addiction to learning, coaches, masterminds, books, whatever, and turn around and be able to share what's working with others. And that's just fun for me. So I have a business that basically fulfills my lifestyle and allows me to have fun and do what I want to do. [00:16:51] Jason: And you, Mr. Property management, business owner, who I'm maybe selling to, want to grow your business. And so our interests are in alignment. My business is the bridge that connects your why to my why. We both get what we want. It's the ultimate win-win, right? Everybody wins. And so I've been able to take really terrible salespeople that are really bad at selling, and I just get them clear on their own identity. [00:17:14] Jason: Mm-hmm. Who they are, why they do what they do, and have them relate that to people and then people trust them. And sales and deals happened at the speed of trust.  [00:17:22] Sam: Oh my gosh, I love this so much. It's insanely powerful too when I'm teaching people how to do just introductions, you know? A super quick formula too for the property managers out there that are listening to that, even if you're property manager, you have to get good at sales. [00:17:38] Sam: Yeah, you have to be good at communication to be able to bring more doors into your portfolio. And so the way you know, a really easy formula for those homeowners when you're having that conversation, first of all, they've got to know who they're talking to. Yeah. You know, this belief, identity, you know, matrix that I actually I love to call, I just did a keynote. [00:17:59] Sam: It's funny for everybody listening. It's almost like Jason and I have read each other's notes, but we haven't. Just did a keynote, well that's maybe a month ago in Minnesota, that the entire talk was your thoughts, create your belief about yourself, your totally belief about yourself creates your identity, and then your identity creates your outcomes. [00:18:16] Sam: Yeah. And, but we have to go back and start with those thoughts. And so, but a simple, easy formula for property managers out there having this conversation is first of all, start asking permission for things. Yes. We can't just tell, right? If we can ask it as a question, ask it as a question. [00:18:36] Sam: So ask permission, like, "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I take a quick minute and just introduce you to our company and myself."  [00:18:44] Sam: yeah.  [00:18:45] Sam: And so first of all, anytime a conversation starts, there's always this period of icebreaking, right? Yeah. Anytime anything new is introduced in anyone's environment, there's always stiffness until that moment of rapport happens and we relax a little bit. [00:19:00] Sam: Yeah. So taking a couple of minutes to just. "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I introduce the company and a little bit about myself? Would that be all right?" Yes. So permission to it and then just take a few minutes because I mean, so many times we'll go through this crazy presentation and then we're asking somebody to buy from us and they don't even know who we are. [00:19:21] Sam: We never took the time to even introduce ourselves. Right.  [00:19:24] Jason: Yeah.  [00:19:24] Sam: Or they don't know thing about the company.  [00:19:25] Jason: Trying to immediately shove the product or service down their throat.  [00:19:28] Sam: Yeah. No wonder they need to think about it. They don't even know who you are. And so we introduce that first. [00:19:34] Sam: It's huge. And to just getting into the things. So that's the flow. It's like, okay, now that you know a little bit about us, tell us a little bit about you. What are you looking for? Right. So then you start that discovery process, and I'm sure you trained this but the discovery process is everything. [00:19:51] Sam: We have to understand the motive behind why they want to do things. Somebody just says, "Hey, I'm looking for a property manager." Okay, great. That's one thing. "Why do you would need a property manager? What are you trying to solve? What do we want to accomplish by having a property manager for your property?" [00:20:09] Sam: So we find out, what are the pain points? What are the issues that they're wanting to overcome? And then from there, we can create a, you know, craft a conversation around it. But until we know that, we're just stabbing in the dark and just guessing it. Yeah. Well, hopefully this will work.  [00:20:23] Jason: Right. Yeah. If we just jump right to offering solutions when we don't even ask what they need it's not very effective. [00:20:30] Jason: And then they're going to have a ton of objections.  [00:20:32] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But yeah, that's the some of the complaints we have are the communication and the other one is just not responding once we find solutions, then give them to the property manager. [00:20:45] Sam: And then it's like ghosting for who knows how long until finally somebody gets back. And so that's the other side of the communication is not getting resolution once we actually, you know, we can do this work, but we're not going to sit around here all day to wait to get it approved. We have other appointments. [00:21:02] Sam: So do we want to reschedule?  [00:21:03] Jason: It's treating the vendor like they're high value, they're going to treat you like you're high value and they're going to prioritize you. And so it really is a mutual respect relationship that needs to be built. So, Sam, I also want to bring up to our audience, you are going to be coming [00:21:19] Jason: to speak at DoorGrow Live. Yeah. And you're going to be teaching some really cool stuff. Could you just touch on real quick what you're going to be sharing at this because I wanted to come bring you to expose my clients and my audience to what you're going to be sharing and maybe you can get some people pumped up for DoorGrow Live, so. [00:21:38] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you for the invite as well. I'm super excited to be speaking for DoorGorw Live. It's my passion, in fact to be able to help people in their daily lives, especially in conversations like this, to make it easy. I am such a firm believer that sales should be easy. If it's not easy, we're overcomplicating it. And so what we're going to be talking about at the event is I'm going to give some really simple keys to better communication so people actually not only listen, but they understand what you're saying and, more importantly, why should they care? [00:22:18] Sam: So we're going to talk about something called, the benefit lens. We're going to talk about some easy word substitutions. We're not going to be learning scripts or anything. We're going to be, we're going to show any really easy ways to get immediate buy-in to what our conversation is. Nice. And how to recruit people to be raving fans and be on board. [00:22:38] Sam: And how to ask and get referrals because that's huge in...  [00:22:44] Sam: absolutely.  [00:22:44] Sam: ...something like a property management. If every third door you added also added another one from a referral, what would that do to your business? Yeah, absolutely. So not just asking for referrals, but actually asking in a way where actually get them. [00:22:57] Jason: Right. Yeah. If you're getting enough referrals, one, because you have a good reputation, you're doing a good job, but also because you have an intention and you're asking appropriately, you create this kind of virus of growth in your business where it's multiplying. [00:23:13] Jason: Every client becomes more clients.  [00:23:16] Sam: Yep. Absolutely. In fact, we can do a quick little as an example of some of the things we're going to cover. Are you open to doing a quick little role play with me on...  [00:23:24] Sam: all right. Let's do it.  [00:23:25] Sam: Some of the conversation here. Yeah. I love role play.  [00:23:28] Sam: Let's have fun.  [00:23:29] Sam: Yeah, for sure. [00:23:30] Sam: So I'm property manager. So before we do, give me a quick little context of what is a premium price property manager and what is like a middle range property manager. And so I'll know what I'm working with here. [00:23:44] Jason: Oh yeah. Usually our clients have three different price points for that reason. So, perfect. But let's say like, real typical in the marketplace is 10% is pretty normal. Okay? And this is not what we recommend. because our clients close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:23:59] Jason: So we have some special pricing models, but let's say 10%. Premium, maybe 12%, and the lower would maybe be like 8%.  [00:24:08] Sam: Got it. Got it. Perfect. Alright, so I'm the project manager. So I'm going to be a premium 12%. Yeah. So what we're going to do in this conversation, I'm going to ask for the business and you're going to give me a little bit of a price flinch with, "well, the other guy was only 10%." [00:24:23] Sam: Okay. And so we'll show a quick, easy way to handle that. All right. In a way that will make sense for everybody. So, alright, Jason, so, sounds like everything that you've talked about, can you see how all the things we do will take care of the concerns that you have? [00:24:38] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Sounds great.  [00:24:40] Sam: Awesome. Perfect. So the next steps to get moving is you know, so we're just 12% of the monthly as for us to be able to take care of all of that. And this will just need a quick authorization on this form here and we can get started right away.  [00:24:55] Jason: Ooh, okay. Well, I was expecting, you know, I talked to a company down the street, they were like 10%, which seems to be a bit more normal. [00:25:04] Jason: I don't know.  [00:25:04] Sam: More normal?  [00:25:07] Jason: I've talked to a couple companies and a lot of them all do it at 10%. Could, like, is it possible you could do it at 10%?  [00:25:13] Sam: Oh, gotcha. So listen, I mean, so we were just 12%, but listen, we're not 2% higher or 2% more expensive. We're 2% better. Can I explain to you why that is? [00:25:25] Jason: Sure.  [00:25:26] Sam: Absolutely.  [00:25:27] Sam: So at that point, as a great company, you're going to have a hit list of all of the reasons why you're better than everybody else, and what makes you that premium company. I like it. So the minute we get that permission question in of, "Hey, we're not 2% more expensive, we're 2% higher, we're 2% better." [00:25:43] Sam: Then the permission question is, "can I show you why, or can I show you how?" And they say "Yes." Then we're going to, "okay, so what we do, it's..." never talk bad about the competition. Sure. But it's always with that perspective. "So what we do is this, and what we do is this, and what we do is this. We're always going to have the availability to be in contact, you know, 24/7 or you know, whatever all of the benefits is. [00:26:10] Sam: We're going through this huge benefit list. Yeah. And then when, once we, and it works like magic, once you get to about 10 or 12 things, especially when you know, those first 10 or 12 things are things the other companies don't do. Yeah. So many times that person will go, "you know what? You're right. You know what? You're right. Let's just go ahead and do it." Yeah.  [00:26:31] Jason: I mean, you go through those things you say, "so does that make sense why maybe we're 2% better?" And they're going to be like, "yeah."  [00:26:38] Jason: You've got agreement.  [00:26:39] Sam: Cool. Absolutely. And the other thing to do in this conversation, and this is really powerful too, so, you know, we'll take you know, what's a, what's the average rent that we'd be taking that percentage off of? [00:26:50] Jason: Let's say 2000 bucks.  [00:26:51] Sam: So 2000 bucks. That's what I was going to use. "So we're talking about 2% difference. So we're looking at $40 a month or $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for $10 a week to potentially fight the headache of, you know, your property management company not responding when you need them to respond, your tenants being really unhappy, the tenants turning over and over, for, I mean, $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for that?"  [00:27:22] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:23] Sam: So if, I mean, if you're willing to roll the dice and take that chance, then of course you could do what you want. But if you want it done right and done once, so you're headache free and you're not going to have to, because the reason you hire a property manager is to be hands off. [00:27:35] Sam: Right? Yeah. Perfect. That's why what, that's what sets us apart. Next to any of the other companies around.  [00:27:43] Jason: Got it. So hypothetical property manager, Sam here, like believes. You can tell by listening to him, he believes in what he is selling. He believes he's worth that 12%. He believes he's worth that value, and I love that reframe. [00:27:58] Jason: One of the NLP hacks I teach clients is, it's not a, it's b, and he's like, "it's not that we're expensive or higher price, it's that we're 2% better." And so you're saying this is how you are looking at it. Here's how I want you to look at it. And that's a really cool correction. I love that right there. [00:28:16] Jason: Very powerful.  [00:28:17] Sam: The other part of that too is when you take, we're not talking about the total monthly, you know, we're talking about what's 12% or 10%? We're talking about 2% difference. Yeah. Is it worth it to you for a 2% difference to take the chance on having to deal with this, having to manage your own projects, having the headache, having the you know, the angry tenants or we don't have that problem. [00:28:42] Sam: And here's proof: review, testimony. Other people in the area, for people that use us just like you guys.  [00:28:49] Jason: Yeah. Awesome. Perfect. And you're going to share some really cool stuff I know at DoorGrow Live. I'm excited, man. Me too.  [00:28:56] Sam: Let's just tip of the iceberg. [00:28:57] Jason: For a salesman to be able to like build a coaching business, teaching sales like these are the best in the world at sales, and so I'm really excited to have you come. I've sold millions and millions of dollars of stuff. I love, I'm always learning more about sales, like this is something you can always continually learn more, so I love that little reframe. [00:29:17] Jason: That's a good one. I'm excited to hear what else you have to share. This is going to be really awesome. And if you're interested, go to doorgrowlive.com and get your tickets. Get your tickets. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management, and we are bringing future ideas. [00:29:32] Jason: I'm going to be going over hybrid pricing, a new pricing model for property managers. This is the future. We're going to be sharing our DoorGrow hiring system. This is the future of how you're going to need to do hiring, so you're not making mistakes with hires, we're helping a lot of people replace their entire team. [00:29:48] Jason: So anyway, DoorGrow Live is going to be really freaking cool. So, yeah, and it's a holistic conference as well. We're bringing people from outside the industry, people that are related to different things. I've got a biohacking expert. We've got different things just to optimize your life as an entrepreneur and to make you better at what you do. [00:30:05] Jason: So this is going to be really cool. So, well, Sam anything else we should touch on?  [00:30:10] Sam: You know, there's so much we could cover.  [00:30:12] Jason: There's a lot. We'll save it for DoorGrow Live. How can people that, if they're listening, they're like, I'm a vendor, or I've got this, or I could really use Sam's help. [00:30:21] Jason: How can they get ahold of you?  [00:30:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. They can go to, of course the website is closeitnow.net. That's NET so closeitnow.net. They can email me directly, sam@closeitnow.net. On an Instagram at @therealcloseitnow. Okay. Or basically search Close it Now anywhere and I pop up all over the place. [00:30:44] Sam: All right. I'm kind of everywhere on social media and on the Googles at this point. All right.  [00:30:50] Jason: All right, well we're going to close this show now, so appreciate you coming on, Sam. It's been great having you. And for those that are watching, listening, if you could use some help from DoorGrow reach out to us. [00:31:00] Jason: You can check us out at doorgrow.com. We are the world leaders at coaching and scaling property management companies. And so if you are dealing with operational challenges, team challenges, hiring challenges, or you just don't know the right strategies for adding doors or business development, we can help you with all of that. [00:31:18] Jason: So reach out to us, check us out at doorgrow.com and until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

After working with property management business owners for over a decade, I've realized that the problems they are experiencing tend to be deeper than issues in the business… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Sam Womack to discuss entrepreneurship, health, and how the two intertwine. You'll Learn [01:57] How stress affects your health [13:48] The impact of oxygen and proper relaxation [17:40] The importance of being able to calm your nervous system [26:10] More health expert insights   Tweetables “Everybody's doing the best they can with their current limited access to knowledge and resources.” “Don't beat yourself up for when you feel stressed out. Just make sure that before you continue that stress rollercoaster, like find some space to find some peace.” “You don't have to like beat all your competitors in a lot of instances, you just need to outlive them. You just need to outlast them.” “High performance isn't just how hard you push. It's about how well you recover and regulate.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sam: If you don't find time to balance your nervous system or don't work on implementing tools to balance your nervous system, then you are limiting yourself to lower performance in the short term and decreasing performance in the long term.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:37] Jason: So DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:21] Jason: Now let's get into the show. Cool.  [00:01:24] Jason: And I'm hanging out here with sam Womack. Sam, welcome to the show.  [00:01:29] Sam: Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here.  [00:01:31] Jason: Cool. So Sam we met at a local mastermind here in the Austin area, which is really cool. And for those that know that I run a mastermind for property managers, I also eat my own dog food and believe in getting coaching and learning and growth and everything else. [00:01:52] Jason: And wanted to connect with some people locally and make some friends as well. So, Sam's one of those friends. So, Sam, welcome to the show. And why don't you give people a little bit of background on yourself and what you do and how you kind of. Got into running businesses and doing cool stuff. [00:02:10] Sam: Yeah, no, thank you. First off, I don't do anything near as difficult as you guys. Managing property and tenants, I think is a feat to be held. And so props to all you guys out there crushing it in real estate. I cut my teeth in entrepreneurship starting at a young age. I was charging like 30 bucks an hour to teach old people how to use their computers, you know, tell their life story. [00:02:29] Sam: They'd pay me 30 bucks an hour while they sat there and henpecked. It was pretty ingenious. Fast forward into later on in life when the pandemic hit the business that I was launching just disappeared overnight. The retail died, everything that I've been working on, all the investors pulled out. [00:02:44] Sam: I was left with a few grand in my name and a baby on the way, living in a studio apartment with my wife. Had to figure something out, went into supply distribution, and a couple years later, fast forward, I did about 20 million in revenue as a solopreneur distributing gloves, masks, COVID test kits, etc. [00:03:01] Sam: But throughout that time, I dealt with like a really serious health issue. Stress had kind of overwhelmed me and I ended up with an autoimmune condition in my brain and through the journey of healing that autoimmune condition that was presenting as like early onset Alzheimer's, it was kind of a mystery. [00:03:16] Sam: They didn't know what was happening. I developed a deep passion for finding the root of health and the root of optimization and root of performance. A lot of that came through working with my mom, who's a preeminent physician focusing on anti aging and regenerative science here in Austin. [00:03:31] Sam: And so I typed her handwritten notes for a couple years and followed the patient journeys of the elite because she has a concierge practice for the elite here in Austin. And as I saw what drove change in their lives, I learned a lot about the human psyche and I learned a lot about how each of our individual unique biologies are very different when it comes to what we choose to do to find optimization or find optimal health. And so now I have a passion for bringing that to the masses. And as the pandemic waned, and as I healed, I became passionate about different physics based modalities and the different systems in the body and how to reach optimal performance. [00:04:07] Sam: And now I have a wellness center here in Austin that focuses on performance optimization, as well as maximizing human potential and transitioning the human experience as well as a research Institute called Human Beaming Research Institute, where we present the stories of the truth about health and where we help bring true health science to light so that people understand what's actually true, not truth that's manufactured by special interests, but truth that's founded in science. [00:04:36] Jason: Got it. Yeah. I mean, there's kind of a battle right now, right? We're like seeing it all play out live real time. Oh yeah. Got this whole make America healthy movement. We've got RFK, Bobby like and it seems like there's some major disruptions that are kind of happening right now and there's a battle and we're waking up. [00:04:58] Jason: A lot of people are waking up that hey, you know, big food, big pharma, you know, big government are not in favor of us being healthy for some reason, which is kind of scary. So yes, yeah kind of waking up to this and I don't know, maybe we're all biohackers now. I don't know.  [00:05:17] Sam: Yeah. No, I you're absolutely right I think that humanity as a whole is kind of done drinking the Kool Aid when it comes to what we've been told is the truth. [00:05:27] Sam: And, you know — [00:05:29] Jason: Yeah. Cause the Kool Aid has like glyphosate in it and like, also like molds and mycotoxins, like it's got bad stuff all over it. And I'm not saying actual Kool Aid. This is metaphorical people. Metaphorically.  [00:05:42] Sam: Yes. And when you look at like where, you know, just briefly to when you follow the money and you see that, like, from a business standpoint, one of the largest mergers and acquisitions in history, if you bring it to current dollar value was when big tobacco bought the food industry and you look at when that transition happened and you see what happened to our food supply and you know, we're fish in a barrel that they're just taking their pick of right now when it comes to what we have that's societally acceptable to put in our bodies and societally acceptable to engage in, in terms of social interaction, et cetera. [00:06:15] Sam: And it, yeah. Kind of funnels us down this path of high stress, which kind of takes us to today's topic with the nervous system. But yeah, I don't don't know if you have anything else you want to discuss before we dive in.  [00:06:25] Jason: Well, I want to point out. So Sam really sharp guy, as you can tell already, Sam's going to be a speaker at our DoorGrow Live conference. [00:06:35] Jason: And he's going to talk about some really cool stuff that we're very holistic at DoorGrow. And so I know that in coaching entrepreneurs and having talked to thousands of property management business owners and coaching hundreds of clients that it's never really the business or that they're spending too little time in their business that's keeping them from succeeding in business. It's everything else, especially health, especially their relationships, especially their marriage. Like these things create a lot of friction for entrepreneurs And they've got a lot going on. You're not really talking about property management when you come to DoorGrow Live, but I do believe it will be a game changer for them to be able to perform more, be able to get more out of their business, be able to get more out of life, which is the goal of having a business, right? [00:07:20] Jason: That's more freedom and more fulfillment. So, yeah. So if you have not yet gone to doorgrowlive.Com and gotten your tickets. Go do that right now. Go get your tickets and make sure you're at that event. Come hang out with us in North Austin at round rock at the Kalahari resort. It's going to be awesome. [00:07:36] Jason: All right. Shameless plug completed. Now, Sam, let's get into talking about the topic at hand.  [00:07:43] Sam: Yeah, I know. And thank you. And I'm really excited to get on stage and speak and I'm going to save some nuggets for the stage. Won't give it all the way here. So I'm really excited about that and helping you guys understand what the true root of your full potential actually is and not from some woo woo space, but actually understanding like the fundamental simple science beneath high performance and beneath fulfillment in life because it really does break down to a very simple equation. One of the key factors is a molecule, and that molecule is actually oxygen. [00:08:13] Sam: And when your brain is in a high stress state you would think that your body would give it more oxygen under high stress, right? But under high stress, you actually have vasoconstriction. Your blood pressure rises, blood gets pumped to your extremities, you got to get away from that proverbial bear, right? [00:08:29] Sam: But for y'all, that bear is the constant wave of tenant complaints, the constant wave of, you know, economic factors interest rate shifting stuff like that And so you have this like constant bear chasing you and if you're always in that state of fight or flight your brain is patterned to operate on survival mechanisms and a lower amount of oxygen and so And then we get this like male, sometimes male and female, but we get this, like this almost masculine energy of like, let's go conquer and do this high stress, high action push, push, push coffee, stimulant. [00:09:03] Sam: And we're really performing with our hands tied behind our back at that point, because our brain has less oxygen in it. And when you look at the other side of the nervous system, which is our parasympathetic nervous system you have this increase of oxygen in the brain. which actually raises serotonin instead of relying on that dopamine cortisol roller coaster, right? [00:09:24] Sam: And so, at the base of this is oxygen, which is bringing us life, which is creating ATP, cellular energy. And, to put it simply, If you don't find time to balance your nervous system or don't work on implementing tools to balance your nervous system, then you are limiting yourself to lower performance in the short term and decreasing performance in the long term. [00:09:48] Sam: Higher relying on stimulants, higher amounts of of just stress and cortisol and dopamine reliance in the long term, which takes away from your ability to connect with others, to find community, to find that real fulfillment that comes in life.  [00:10:02] Jason: And so what you're saying is we shouldn't just overdose on coffee that here in the U. S. probably has mold in it and makes you not feel good and have to pee way too much. And then not, you know, take care of ourselves in breathing effectively and getting too little sleep, too much hustle, too much stress.  [00:10:23] Sam: Yeah.  [00:10:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:10:24] Sam: Yeah, we can get addicted to that pattern because stress actually can feel really good. [00:10:30] Sam: When you have dopamine augmenting that cortisol, right? Without dopamine, cortisol feels really crappy. You know, you look at high anxiety. You look at that restlessness feeling where you don't feel good. You're on edge. That's when your cortisol's high and your dopamine is kind of low because you've been exhausting the dopamine stores by just pushing it. [00:10:50] Sam: Dopamine is supposed to be a short term reward to get us out of the stress back into a parasympathetic state. Dopamine was never meant to be the consistent ongoing reward. Because, like, think about it for survival, right? If you're, you know, trying to get away from the bear, and you're running, that needs to somewhat feel good, in order to get you through that stress. [00:11:11] Sam: So dopamine kicks in when oxygen lowers in the brain. And then, when you get out of the stress, you find that parasympathetic state again, you calm down, oxygen rises in the brain, serotonin rises, which is that more deeper, long term fulfilling chemical, that actually leads to creativity as well. But our society tells us that love is dopamine. It tells us that success is dopamine. It tells us achievement is dopamine. It gives us these dopamine triggers for all of the cultural hierarchy and the cultural validation, that external validation when you do something to succeed and you show it off, that's a dopamine trigger. Social media is a trigger. So all of these things, society is structured in a way that says, "dopamine's the reward. Now go buy shit, right?" Like almost all the financial economy is driven surrounding dopamine, which is a ultimate losing game because you guys all know that it doesn't really provide that end fulfillment, but since it feels good, we're kind of stuck in that loop. And so. What I want to help illuminate is where true fulfillment can be found and help with some kind of practical tools and a practical understanding of this foundational science so that when you're looking to perform at your best, you can give yourself a break and allow yourself to relax. [00:12:22] Sam: You know, before you have that next cup of coffee to keep yourself going, take some deep breaths, find some space to relax. Don't worry that your brain doesn't feel a hundred percent on. And give yourself some space to allow that peace in knowing that you're raising oxygen in the brain. You're opening oxygenation to areas that are going to drive creativity, that are going to allow for connection, that are going to allow for more presence in your body. [00:12:44] Sam: You'll be a different person in the home. You'll be a different person towards yourself. And so these are critical components of understanding the power of the nervous system when it relates to performance. Because high performance isn't just how hard you push. It's about how well you recover and regulate, and it's about how you create that balance that pushes for longevity and pushes for long term endurance and strength. [00:13:09] Sam: Because if you want to succeed and grow your business 5x, 10x, 100x, you need endurance. Sympathetic, nervous system tone, high stress does not create endurance. It's short term bursts, you crash out or you keep hitting the stimulants. And it keeps you in this narrow window of potential. You find that parasympathetic, you find that relaxation, you get creativity going in your brain, you get higher oxygenation in your brain, you're shifting gene expression towards longevity. [00:13:33] Sam: So it's a pretty powerful tool. And most people think, "oh, I don't want to meditate, you know, or I don't want to relax", or they don't feel safe when they're calm. And it's something to just work on shifting your perspective on because there's true power in that state of peace.  [00:13:48] Jason: A while back, I read this book. [00:13:50] Jason: I don't know if you heard of this. It's called the Oxygen Advantage. It's by a guy named Patrick Mckeown and it's got a forward by Dr. Joseph Mercola, but it's interesting because basically the book is about how he trains athletes to breathe through their nose while working out instead of their mouth, which like exercises the lungs and increases lung capacity. [00:14:15] Jason: But if they're, if we're constantly operating with our mouth open and working with our mouth open, we actually decrease our lung capacity. And so, athletes are just burning out really quickly and they don't have the ability or the capacity to, you know, absorb as much oxygen. So like working out those muscles, like breathing through your nose, you know, is something that talks about, but that's interesting that when we're not calm, we're not getting enough oxygen that we're not recovering, we're not regulating our stress, our body probably starts to eat itself a little bit and, you know, and then we get addicted to dopamine and you know, in business, most businesses fail and really you don't have to like beat all your competitors in a lot of instances, you just need to outlive them. You just need to outlast them. And that, that endurance aspect. And so I think, you know, I think we're going to go through some financial turmoil in the marketplace. Things are probably going to get worse before it gets better as we're cleaning up all this mess financially that is going on in the government. [00:15:18] Jason: And the U S dollar is like, I think it's been going down from its original value down and down as they've been stripping value out of it through inflation and giving that money to who knows who. And so. I think there's going to be a big transition. It's going to get really stressful. [00:15:33] Jason: And I think the businesses that are just able to last through this transition and endure and they're focused on the long game are the ones that are going to win.  [00:15:43] Sam: Absolutely.  [00:15:44] Jason: And there's going to be a lot just eaten up.  [00:15:46] Sam: Yeah. And if you don't allow that perspective of what you just explained about business to apply to your own self and your health, you know, what got you here won't get you there. [00:15:54] Sam: And if you want to sustain and succeed through the turmoil, then you need to adapt. And when you have a high stress state, you actually lose BDNF expression in the brain brain neurotropic factor and brain derived neurotropic factor. And that is our adaptability aspect and factor in our brain. And it literally decreases its efficiency, the higher, the more chronically stressed we are. [00:16:18] Sam: And so it's super important. You guys can look up BDNF and understand its role with oxygenation in the brain. And so fundamentally, you know, the more oxygenated your brain is, the greater your access to intuition, memory, and high level thinking. And those are key components to succeeding in business. [00:16:33] Sam: And when you are in a state of constant survival mode, constant reactivity, constant push, hustle, you lose that space to develop creative longterm solutions. You lose that space to be able to get that spark of inspiration on how to pivot around the corner and see around that corner or do something a little differently than what other people are doing. [00:16:55] Sam: And that's why even you look at like Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, like they would love to access that like state estate, the theta state just akin to sleep. They would put like a lead ball in their hand over a metal plate. And then as they were falling asleep. It would drop and the ball would hit the metal plate wake them up and they'd have their pen and their quill and ink on the table with a candle and then they'd have their formula or problems they were trying to solve and then they'd go to solving it because that was deep parasympathetic state where that creativity was opened up brain oxygenation was opened up. And me, just like so many of y'all out there, like, I'm like, man, I do not like meditating, I do not like calming down, like slowing down.  [00:17:31] Jason: I mean, especially if we're addicted to dopamine and adrenaline, like slowing down feels like a waste of time.  [00:17:39] Sam: Oh yeah, it does. And so you, most of you have heard of dopamine, serotonin, and adrenaline slash norepinephrine, right? That's only 20 percent of our neurotransmitters. [00:17:51] Sam: Okay. What's the other 80 percent glutamate and GABA, right? Glutamate is the exitory neurotransmitter. So that's what animates our body. Think glutamate animate, but then GABA is what balances that. So GABA helps slow things down, shut things down. And it's kind of interesting that popular culture slash society, like you don't hear much about GABA. [00:18:13] Sam: And the reason why is because they're selling us GABA in the form of alcohol. Alcohol is a huge GABA receptor connector, so it just hits the GABA and you feel kind of calm and relaxed. And so people love alcohol to be social because you want to be in a slight more parasympathetic state to be social, right? [00:18:30] Sam: Because high stress doesn't lead to—  [00:18:32] Jason: What about scrolling on social media?  [00:18:33] Sam: Social media is going to be hitting dopamine, not so much the GABA. But scrolling social media is going to be giving dopamine, new information. Ooh, new information. I learned something new, like boom, like that constant external input stimulus. [00:18:45] Sam: But when you look at the importance of GABA and you understand that a lot of us aren't making it on our own, which is why we're staying in such a high stress state all day. Yeah. And then we take a GABAergic, like GABA or a benzo or some weed or something that, that can hit that, that GABA receptor instead of making our own endogenous GABA. [00:19:02] Sam: And that's what happens when you're in a parasympathetic state is your body is creating its own GABA to balance out the brain. And that's what drove me to developing a suite of tools called Peace on Demand that I have at my wellness center that are physics based modalities that drop you into that parasympathetic state without sitting there fighting against your brain and trying to force yourself to meditate. [00:19:21] Sam: And then also with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, that's another tool that induces a parasympathetic state over the course of the treatment. And so I found tools because my brain, I had a hard time controlling with the autoimmune disease that I had and how stressed and on fire my brain was, I had a lot of difficulty finding that space, but without those tools, you can still utilize things like breath work, even if it's just longer exhale than the time you're inhaling or like four seconds in, you know, hold for a little bit and then eight seconds out or seven seconds out. [00:19:48] Sam: That, that's just like the simplest form of breath work to kind of activate the vagus nerve and slow down that that nervous system and get you into a more parasympathetic state but it's really interesting when you see that some of the most creative people and the most successful people, they're not super high strung. At a certain point, you'll see a lot of successful people that are high strung. Push, push hustle. [00:20:10] Sam: But then you go to that next level. You look at like the Elon's of the world, or, you know, so these people are on that next level. You watch them speak. They're calm. They have this, you know, they go hype on at times to like reach certain goal. But then they also have that balance. So the key is balance. [00:20:26] Sam: Don't beat yourself up for when you feel stressed out. Just make sure that before you continue that stress rollercoaster, like find some space to find some peace, do some breathing, take a pause, give yourself that chance to take a break. That'll start developing some resiliency in your nervous system so that you don't burn out. [00:20:42] Jason: Yeah, it does seem like really high performers are highly adaptable to, you know, situations. So they move and adapt quickly. It seems like they are able to maintain some calm, but they also are really quick thinkers, like their thinking seems to be faster than normal. I notice for me, I get really frustrated with team members when they're not— [00:21:05] Jason: I'm like, "come on, this is super quick. Like, look how fast I can do this." And I'm like, "keep up." And so that becomes a little bit of a frustration. I'm like, why is everybody slow? I saw this really interesting thing. My son sent me this and he's really into football. And I guess there's some quarterbacks that are now training with VR. [00:21:23] Jason: Playing the game in VR and but they're doing it at 1. 5 speed. And so they're getting used to everything being fast and they've adapted to that. So then when they go and play, it feels like everything's in slow motion. And I was like, wait a sec. I listen to telegram messages at two speed. I listened to audio books at two, between 1.8 to two speed. Like, so my brain is probably more adapted to speed.  [00:21:49] Sam: Yes.  [00:21:50] Jason: And and so I'm able to process, I was just hanging out with somebody who has a lot more money than me, who runs, who's the CEO of Real, Sharran Srivatsaa. And he talks really fast and he thinks really fast. Like this guy is sharp. [00:22:03] Jason: And I'm like, how does he move so fast? You know? But also and he doesn't seem like stressed out or anything. One of the things I've noticed, maybe like sparks this GABA sort of thing is just for me, reading? Just reading, actually reading not like high speed audiobooks, but sitting down with a book and processing information, my body's in a calm state. I feel a really deep calm where I'm in a flow sort of state reading and absorbing and processing information. So I found that can be a really good tool for me. [00:22:34] Jason: Sarah and I go do your peace on demand thing, which is just awesome. And a game changer. It's really been helpful for Sarah. It's kind of, I compare it to doing a float session, having a really good float session which doesn't happen every time you do a float session, but it happens every time you do Peace on Demand and you don't have to get wet and naked, and nothing gets in your eyes or ears on accident sometimes and stings. [00:22:54] Jason: So that's nice. The other thing I've noticed is just walking. So I went and did EMDR therapy for a while, for like a year with a therapist, bilateral stimulation, both sides of the brain is the concept. And then I noticed like, well, walking is bilateral stimulation. And so that's like a free, very cheap version of EMDR therapy is just to go on walks. [00:23:14] Jason: And rather than running, which is like, Hey, stress response. I found walking is very calming, especially if I'm really stressed. If I go for a walk, it kind of signals to my body, "Hey, you're okay. You're not being chased by a saber tooth tiger right now." So your fight or flight, calm down. So those are the things that work for me. [00:23:32] Jason: I don't know, but those are great tools. I don't know.  [00:23:35] Sam: Yeah. So what those are doing are like, you mentioned a keyword there and that's safe, right? And so you're creating these environments. One, you're reading a book, gaining new knowledge, and you're not cramming the book in a stressed out state to try to memorize it for a test, right? Which so much of us get programmed in school at an early age, that like reading means like, focus hard and stress out over what you're reading. [00:23:56] Sam: But if you allow yourself to relax into that flow state, and you mentioned flow state as well, flow doesn't happen when you're in super high stress state. Some people We'll try to say, "Oh yeah, I'm in flow" because they've got like dopamine coursing and cortisol coursing and  [00:24:10] Jason: they're like manic and going crazy.  [00:24:12] Sam: Yeah, exactly. [00:24:13] Jason: They're busy, but they're not productive.  [00:24:15] Sam: Yeah. And when you get productive and when you feel like you're going fast and your team isn't responding fast enough, like you have that adaptability, you have that BDNF that's really efficient in your brain because you practice going in and out of these states and you spend a lot of time in this flow and in this GABA balanced state Where you're not hyper stressed out and one one thing that also on a biochemistry level explains some of this is: in a sympathetic nervous system response, your body is trying to find as much glucose as possible to burn glucose for fast quick energy, which creates oxidative stress on the body, which creates inflammation. And then your body has to like go clear out all the junk but it doesn't care that it's creating a bunch of junk to clear out, because it's trying to help you survive short term. [00:24:59] Sam: When you're in a parasympathetic state, you're looking at a—  [00:25:02] Jason: Does it make you crave sugar then?  [00:25:03] Sam: Yeah, so high stress makes you crave sugar. Whereas parasympathetic state, you're on a more fat burning metabolism. You're not creating as much oxidative stress. You're like expressing longevity genes. You're expressing anti inflammatory genes. [00:25:16] Sam: Your body literally shifts into almost a different state, not just mentally, but biophysically and biochemistry wise all throughout your body. You adapt based on the nervous system state that you allow. And that's where it does come down to personal responsibility to make the choice to start practicing finding this state that will empower so much more potential for your life than that narrow band of, you know, survival programming and high stress thinking. [00:25:46] Sam: And then it's better for your health longterm too, because you're not just compounding oxidative stress nonstop and then needing those negative inflammatory inputs to make your dopamine stay high. And you can just find that peace. And then you'll find a much higher level of performance and that flow state will start just happening naturally constantly, which is what's been happening for Jason as he's been practicing these things as well. [00:26:08] Jason: Got it. Okay. Very cool. So little teaser, what are you going to talk about a little bit at DoorGrow Live that will be revelatory or helpful for people that might be a little bit stressed in their business or are wanting to take their performance to the next level? And I just, I want to point out, the difference I've noticed just in clients doing time studies and things like this. [00:26:32] Jason: Some of my clients will, we can see in their time study that they, it takes them in the latter half of the day, like the afternoon, an hour to do stuff that takes them 10 minutes in the morning. They're just, they're running out of brain chemicals. They're running out of like, what are neurotransmitter chemicals that they produce while sleeping? [00:26:51] Jason: They're now no longer productive and efficient, even though they're working really hard and they're really busy. And so, so yeah, maybe you could tease a little bit. What could we talk about there that might optimize their productivity so that they could actually feel superhuman and get two to three times the amount of output with the same amount of work or stress or effort? [00:27:14] Sam: Yeah, so we're going to go into a little bit more detail on some other aspects of the foundations of performance. So today we focused on nervous system, which is key. But. Controlling our nervous system isn't just as easy as thinking about it. There's some environmental factors. There's some lifestyle choices we can make. Often, we have a really hard time making those changes due to the, those well worn grooves, like, you know, skis on a slope that are really hard to get out of. And so I'm going to help with some simple truths that you'll understand and make it a lot easier to start making small shifts that will create massive change and that don't have to be stressful or induce anxiety or feel hard. It'll actually feel easy. So I'm going to help you understand some fundamental truths about your biology and That will unlock unlimited potential.  [00:28:03] Jason: Yeah, because I think every entrepreneur listening, myself included, I'm sure you as well, have been in those time periods where you feel like you're working so hard and you're investing so much time and energy, and you're going nowhere like it feels like you're just treading water and you're burning yourself out and you're like, "why am I not adding hundreds of doors? Why am I not growing my business? Why am I not getting ahead? Why am I seeing idiots get further along than me?" You know, like, " why is this not working for me?" And and I think that all plays into that like that. Everything you're talking about plays into that.  [00:28:41] Sam: You'll find yourself having permission to make some changes and the permission is a key aspect of that courage and that bravery to choose something different to focus on something different. [00:28:56] Sam: I mean, we all hear where you, where your attention goes, your focus grows, you know, and what you focus on is what you create, you know, all these things. What does that fundamentally and literally mean when it comes to the way we choose our life experience? And what can we create when our choices change and how can we be empowered to make those choices? [00:29:16] Sam: Those are some of the more intricate topics that we'll discuss.  [00:29:19] Jason: Got it. Almost like shifting from feeling like, "Hey, I'm giving up something or sacrificing in some way that in actuality, you're getting more."  [00:29:30] Sam: Oh, so much more. Exactly. So much more. Yeah. Cool.  [00:29:34] Jason: So. Those of you listening, I'm guessing you're growth oriented, growth minded. [00:29:39] Jason: You want to get more. Come to DoorGrow Live. Come hear Sam talk. So cool. Sam, appreciate you coming here on the #DoorGrowShow. If people are hanging out in Austin or curious about what you're up to, how can they find you? Peace on Demand. Tell them about your stuff and how people might be able to follow you or get in touch. [00:29:58] Sam: Yeah. So we have a small wellness center here. It's a private, you know, high touch concierge space, very comfortable here in Austin. And it's open for business by appointment only but just go to beamhyperbarics.Com and you can book an appointment. If you want to reach out to me I am Sam Womack. [00:30:15] Sam: On Instagram or you can send a message through the website. Easier website to remember is beam.do B E A M dot D O. And yeah, just reach out, come hang out. You don't even have to buy something to come in. Just hit me up. We'll make sure that I'm around and we can sit on the couch in the back and talk life. [00:30:34] Jason: All right. Awesome, Sam. Appreciate you coming on and excited to have you at DoorGrow Live.  [00:30:40] Sam: Yeah. I'm excited as well. Looking forward to it. I love what you're doing. And I think the steps that you're taking to help empower people beyond just showing them tactics and strategies, but helping them live a more fulfilled and empowered life. [00:30:50] Sam: That's what it's all about. So thank you for that work you're doing.  [00:30:53] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. We've just noticed like we can give them all the right tactics and strategies, but if they don't incorporate the other things, it's kind of like you're trying to run a race up the mountain with rocks in your backpack, like boulders, you know, it's just, it's so much more efficient if we get everything else in alignment and usually it's never the business piece that's really what's holding them back. It's not the tactics it's mindset. It's their mental health. It's like everything else, their family. Yeah. So we're excited to bring you and some others that are going to just unlock a lot of things for our clients and for non clients that are coming to DoorGrow Live. [00:31:32] Jason: So appreciate you.  [00:31:34] Sam: Yeah, you bet. Thank you. And just one last thing is you guys are all doing such a great job too. Like, don't think of this as any type of a criticism or, "Oh, you're not doing good enough." Like you're doing such an excellent job with the tools that you were programmed with the upbringings you had with the environment you're in. [00:31:48] Sam: So like, just look at it as a chance to learn something new and be empowered by it. But you guys are all doing such a great job. And so keep it up.  [00:31:56] Jason: Yeah, everybody's doing the best they can with their current limited access to knowledge and resources that they put out. Whatever. All right, cool. Awesome, Sam. I'll let you go. All right. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to add doors or increase your profit or lower your stress, reach out to us at DoorGrow we would love to help you grow and scale your business. You can check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you're wanting to join our free community, get a little bit more info about us, hang out with some other property managers, go to DoorGrow club. com to join our free community and connect with other property managers and get some cool free stuff. And until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Hope you all crush it. Bye everyone. [00:32:38] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

They say the best businesses are built on the foundations of friendship, and that's exactly what Samuel Loo and Singchuen Chiam, childhood pals, prove with their journey from elementary school to dominating the matcha scene on Amazon. Their tale is not just about the green goodness of matcha but a story of two friends who took divergent paths—law and business—only to converge into a powerhouse duo. With Sam's sharp legal acumen and Sing's Alibaba experience finesse, they've brewed up Naoki Matcha, a brand that resonates with quality and customer delight, nurturing it from a side hustle to a multi-million dollar success. Our conversation steers through the meticulous craft of standing out in a saturated market, with Sam and Sing revealing their three-year grind to perfecting their matcha blend. They share the trials of juggling full-time jobs while planting the seeds for Naoki Matcha, a testament to their enduring patience and entrepreneurial spirit. Their business acumen shines as they discuss the potency of Amazon PPC in propelling their revenue growth, and the strategic decision to maintain a premium on their product—ensuring Naoki Matcha is not just another tea on the shelf, but a premium experience for the discerning consumer. As we wrap up, the future of Naoki Matcha gleams with potential, from its lean operational approach to its plans for product diversification and international expansion. Their story isn't just an inspiration for Amazon FBA sellers and matcha aficionados but to anyone with entrepreneurial dreams, demonstrating that with the right blend of passion and strategy, even the smallest idea can grow into a thriving E-commerce empire. Join us as we toast to the success of Sam and Sing, and keep an eye on your social media feeds—you might just catch the upcoming viral sensation of Bradley Sutton's matcha flan!   In episode 542 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Samuel, and Singchuen discuss: 00:00 - Childhood Friends Start Successful Matcha Business 08:35 - Exploring Opportunities With Macha Tea  11:33 - Journey to Success 14:50 - Product Growth From Gradual to Significant 20:46 - Brand Growth Through Market Analysis 21:26 - Strategic Growth of Naoki Matcha Brand 24:37 - Matcha Market Segmentation and Competition 28:56 - Success in their Amazon Business 30:15 - Amazon PPC Advertising Strategy Effectiveness 33:37 - Matcha Success Story and Plans For Future Growth ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today, we've got two childhood best friends from elementary school who linked up as adults and started a matcha Amazon business that now does millions of dollars a year. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think.   Bradley Sutton: Black Box by Helium 10 houses the largest database of Amazon products and keywords in the world. Outside of Amazon itself, we have over 2 billion products and many millions more keywords from different Amazon marketplaces, from USA to Australia to Germany and more. Use our powerful filters to search through this database for pockets of opportunity that you might want to get into with your first or next product to sell on Amazon. For more information, go to h10.me/blackbox. Don't forget you can save 10% off for life on Helium 10 by using our special code SSP10.   Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that's completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies or serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. And we are going to the opposite side of the world today, to I believe they're in Singapore, and it's funny because the way they were introduced to me by Crystal and somebody else from Amazon she was like oh yeah, I want you to meet the Macha Bros, but I don't think that's their official name, so I'll let you guys go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience. This is the first time we'll be on the show   Sam: Sure. So my name is Sam and this is my business partner, Singchuen. We're not actually brothers, but we work together quite closely on a business that we started together. Our business is called Naoki matcha and, as the name suggests, we sell matcha green tea powder in the United States, in the United Kingdom and in Singapore.   Bradley Sutton: You know what I've known you, of you or about you? I literally thought you guys were blood brothers entire time, not just because of that name, and so I've already learned something new. I literally thought, you guys were.   Sam: No, no. We get that a lot. We get that a lot.   Bradley Sutton: Brothers from other mothers.   Sam: Yes, I think we can go with that, yeah.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right, hold on now. Let's you know like I already learned something new, so let's just take it. Take it way back, both of you born and raised in Singapore.   Sam and Singchuen: Yep.   Bradley Sutton: How did you guys meet? Did you meet like some story, like you met in university, or how did you guys meet each other?   Singchuen: Sam and I met oh, this is Singchuen, by the way, so I'm the business partner. Sam and I met in primary school, so we have known each other for quite a long time.   Bradley Sutton: So that is a good story, all right. And then you just went to that. You went to the same one, or? Or you just met in the neighborhood, or what?   Sam: We went to the same one and we actually were in the same school so like 10 years, and then our paths kind of diverged for a little while. But we reconnected in university because we were both interested in like business and entrepreneurship and I think that's how it kind of like reconnected and we started exploring different things and that's how we started working together again.   Bradley Sutton: What did both of you major in in university?   Singchuen: I studied business and Sam, he was actually a lawyer.   Sam: Yeah, I studied law at university.   Bradley Sutton: Upon graduation, did both of you guys go into that field that you had studied law and business?   Singchuen: I guess in a sense that because we started a business, business would be quite relevant. But in that in another, in another complete sense, it wasn't really that relevant because the things that you studied in school were geared to get you a role in a company, so it wasn't very practical. But the concepts, they were useful.   Sam: Yeah, so after graduation I did practice law for like a couple of years and then, while doing this business, and then at the end of the two years, I realized that, like you know there was I had two opportunities and like this one kind of showed itself to be a bit more, have more potential, so I left the law and I went into e-commerce.   Bradley Sutton: Who discovered e-commerce first? Was it you, Sam?   Sam: Yeah. So I think I really found out about this opportunity on Amazon and FBA the ability to like sell in another country that is not yours. I think back in like 2015-2016 this is like early days, right but at that point in time I was still like a university student at Seoul 6th year, so we really didn't have like the kind of resources that we needed to really tackle this, this, this opportunity, right. So we spent some time like learning about how to approach it and we only really launched it like late 2016 and from then we went on our careers. We kind of like grew it slowly along the way and then after a few years, we realized that okay, the time is right, this is a good time to go all in.   Bradley Sutton: Okay. So in 2016 you guys had reconnecting, like, hey, let's do something together while still having day jobs at that time.   Singchuen: Yeah, exactly, Sam was a lawyer. I actually worked in e-commerce as well. I worked in Alibaba for quite a number of years, so it helped that I could bring a certain kind of context to how the Amazon platform worked, and so we decided to start this sort of like to see where this would be going, because it was exciting, it was an opportunity and we always wanted to have our own business. So that was sort of like the paradigm in which we started off on.   Bradley Sutton: And so at the time in 2016, when you first just started dabbling in e-commerce, it sounds like you weren't all in. Was it matcha that you got into? Was that your first thing, or was it other things?   Sam: Yeah, so when we first started, we started, as most people do, with like a search query on Alibaba.com. The first products we actually sold were like these glass teapots, so we realized that they were not too bad to sell. Actually, we reached like five figures in multi-revenue by like within a year, but we met the same problems that I think a lot of people encounter, which is that after a while, people see that you're somewhat successful and then they'll try to launch a complicated product and therefore, when we found that happened to us and we found it very difficult to grow, so we really were like scratching our heads to think about like what other types of products or categories that we could do, and that's why we landed on matcha.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, so when you landed on matcha, were you still working your day jobs, or by that time you were all in on Amazon already?   Sam: No, we were still working out day jobs because for matcha category and the grocery category we found that, like you know, it's not so much of like a quick win kind of situation. You need to invest the time and energy and you need to have quite a lot of patience before your results actually bear fruit, and for us that took actually a number of years because you need to kind of like build your credibility and gain experience in what you're selling as well.   Bradley Sutton: Are we still talking 2016? Are we already now in 2017 in the timeline, or where are we at when you guys decided matcha?   Sam: Right. So in 2016, we dabbled in matcha and then we spent the next two years essentially trying to improve the product and better understand the category and the product market fit as it is in the US, and we took like a couple of years to do that properly, and I think it was only about 2020, you know, right after COVID hit, when we realized that, okay, the product is good, we have a good product that can stand up against the other competitors in the space, and you're going to go all in and grow this thing.   Singchuen: On the side of this, because our matcha green tea is from Japan and there was a requirement I want to say it's a hard requirement, but there is an understanding that in order to get the good product in Japan, especially from suppliers, you kind of need to cultivate the relationship a little bit and take some time for them to trust you. And so it's not as though, as we didn't want the best product right in 2016. Number one it's not. It's a learning process, right, especially when what the market is telling you of a certain kind of taste that they prefer. But it's also bringing back those requirements to the suppliers and the factories to let them know this is the taste that we want and, barring communication barriers, there's still that they need to feel, feel each other out to exactly ascertain what we're looking for. And that took quite a bit more time than what you would be doing on Alibaba.   Bradley Sutton: That's what has been curious. This is not something you would just like find on Alibaba. So where did the like, how did you guys land on matcha? Was it something you guys just liked? Was it because you were doing tea cups and you just like it was a side thing? Like how in the world? Or did you find it in Helium 10? Or how in the world did you say you know what? I think there's opportunity in matcha. Let's go ahead and examine this further.   Singchuen: In Singapore, generally we are exposed to Japanese culture quite a little bit already, but more closely, I guess it's also because I liked green tea. So at the point of time I didn't drink a lot of matcha, but I knew about it. So we explored that as a potential item to try to sell and in a sense it checked all the other boxes as well right. Whether it is for the economics, the logistics, the business, fit, branding, pricing. And that's how we started off on like taking the first step.   Sam: I think also at that point in time this is like 2015, 2016, right, I think matcha was just beginning to get popular in the US. So, yeah, that's when I think the craze started, right. So I think we were also at like the right time in the right place and we realized that, you know, we could marry like our interests and the market opportunity in front of us, and that's how we really landed on matcha.   Bradley Sutton: I don't have any matcha shirts or anything, but you mentioned like Japanese culture. So I got my Astro Boy jacket here. I got my old school Japanese Tokyo Giants hat here. You know, I used to live in Japan when I was younger and and that was why you know, like matcha is not exactly a natural thing for an American person to like, but I kind of liked it. Before it was cool and now, now, like you said, it's just like booming. Everybody's like, hey, matcha, you know you can go to Starbucks and get matcha, this and you can get matcha, and you know non Asian markets, which before it was different. So that was, you know, a little bit of foresight. Now, when you first started with the matcha, you know you had said, until then you were doing dabbling in other things, were you profitable on the Amazon side? Or, up to that point, you still hadn't made profit in the first year or so of your Amazon business.   Singchuen: We tended to search for products that were more profitable on the first sale. So in that sense, the first products that we went to more like glass cups, g-ports, things like that they were already profitable. So it's not as though, as we were dabbling in things that were really difficult to do, low priced or otherwise.   Bradley Sutton: Your first matcha product that you launched? Was that the one that was successful, or did it take a couple of tries before things really started taking off?   Sam: Well, I think it is still the first product that we launched, but what we had to do was tweak the formulation over the years several times and each time we're trying to improve it and fine tune it to better suit, like the feedback that we were getting. So it is the same product, it looks the same, but they're always like tweaks over the years and this kind of like helps build that, I guess, average review score. That goes up because, like you know, you're getting closer to what people like with each iteration.   Bradley Sutton: To find that like perfect blend and everything. You kind of mentioned it and I know this about your history. So can you talk a little bit about, like we just said, this wasn't something. Oh, let me find something in Alibaba, let me just put my sticker on it. How did you look for I don't even want to call it factories, but producers of matcha in Japan like we said, it's not on Alibaba and then talk about the long process of? Actually, I believe you would fly to Japan and meet different places and try things. Talk about that long process how long did it take and what were the steps involved in that.   Singchuen: At the start, we asked for samples from willing factories and once we tasted them and we realized that this was something that could be in a ball pack of what's considered as good tasting to the market, we would ask the supplier whether they are willing to sell us a certain volume of matcha. So there are several factories in Japan that do just green tea, and their idea was sort of branch out to selling matcha as well, because there was where the growing market was, and these were the factories that were more suitable for us to go into, and once we spoke to them their experience with matcha may not be the best at the point of time, mind you, but they were willing to work with us and over a period of time, once we let them know exactly what we're looking for and they were willing to tweak to our preferences, that's when we got a good fit and from then, as our volume started going up, more and more, various factories started.   Bradley Sutton: Until that part, though. How long was that? Were we talking a month? Were we talking multiple months?   Singchuen: No, that actually took quite a long time. I think about three years at least so around 2016 to 2019,. On the marketing side, Sam was trying to define a market fit, but on the supply side, we were just trying to make sure that factories produce what we needed and the trust and formulation. That takes a while.   Bradley Sutton: How can somebody have that kind of patience? That's very rare, not just in matcha industry, but just Amazon or business industry to have that kind of patience to you know to like, hey, I'm spending two or three years to get this right. Like, is that just in your nature or what's going on there?   Singchuen: To be fair, I think we were not so much in a hurry, just to share a little bit. Personally, it's a little bit more of we always wanted to get a business eventually, but the timeline wasn't so important. We weren't in a rush. Sam, as Sam has mentioned just now, both of us had decent careers, so we were optimizing on that front as well and we're happy to wait.   Bradley Sutton: Like you said, you still had your day jobs, you know, for a time. So it wasn't like you know, like you were about to go out of business and I think that's important. You know, like people sometimes just like, all right, I'm going to quit my job before they even have like a viable business and that's what you know. That's not going to allow somebody to have the patience. That's interesting. Now, at what point in this three years did you finally have like a product just start taking off? And was it just random, like it was just one day that it started going viral and never looked back? Or was this something where it was like, all right, you know, over a few months you were selling 10 units a day, then 15 units, then 20, was it a gradual thing? Or when did what? Was that moment where it's like, oh shoot, we got this right and this is going to take off.   Sam: Yeah, I think it was really like a gradual process. But that point for us, I think, when the old shoot moment, I think, was when we realized that, like the monthly sales for this Macha product alone was quite significant and this was enough to basically sustain ourselves, number one and number two provide a good base and recurring cash flow to kind of grow the business from there. Yeah, and this was really about, like you know, as I said, 2020, mid 2020, early to mid 2020, after COVID started, where we realized that, hey, this thing has snowballed into something quite significant. So it was really a gradual process.   Bradley Sutton: If you can recall either of you, what was your sales the year before, in 2019, when you were still just dabbling in Macha and maybe still had some of the other products?   Sam: I would say that it was like maybe like six figures a year, low six figures a year, and then, okay, yeah, we was at that point in time. We were, we were often optimistic about, about close to doubling each year. So that was, that was where we were at.   Bradley Sutton: And then. So at that point, obviously still working full time jobs. And then it was at 2020, when it took off, and then you quit in 2020, your jobs or you still, even though it started taking off, you still were working your full time.   Sam: I wouldn't say it took off right. It was just at that point in time with, like, the good momentum that like we know that there's some something to stand on. So that was when we decided, okay, time to go all in. And then we know that the product was ready. And then we started doubling down on marketing in order to kind of know that, you know, this optimized product is available to everyone. And then that's how we kind of grew from there.   Bradley Sutton: What kind of marketing? I mean, obviously Amazon PPC is part of it. Was that it or other things as well?   Sam: So we did try a bunch of things at first, but by the late by late 2020, we realized that Amazon advertising PPC mainly is that engine that's going to give us the growth for the next few years, because we realized that, like on a cost acquisition basis, like you just can't beat it.   Bradley Sutton: You said 2019, low six figures. What about 2020, that your first really good year. What did you end approximately with?   Sam: I think we were just under seven.   Bradley Sutton: And then how about 2021?   Sam: Yes, somewhere, seven.   Bradley Sutton: All right. So now it's like you guys knew you had something. It wasn't just a fluke, you know. You had some consistency. Do you mind if I show your product on screen right now? For those watching this on YouTube?   Sam: Oh yeah, go ahead.   Bradley Sutton: So let me pull it up here. Was this variation family here of the superior ceremonial blend it says here, was this like your first product that you got into?   Sam: Yes, it was.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, now I'm looking. Now it's like you know, according to Amazon, according to Helium 10, you are selling throughout this variation family here, thousands of units, multiple six figures per month, just with this, with this fam variation family. So this is the one that is your, your big seller. So I mean, if I'm looking at these numbers correctly, unless this is just a very nice month here, you're like what in the you know mid seven figures now, or higher?   Sam: I think that's fantastic yeah.   Bradley Sutton: Okay and explain this product. You know there's a lot I like matcha. I understand it, but there's a lot of people who might like think like what? Like? Do you just like dump this in tea or do you actually use it to cook something? Like what? Like? How in the world are you selling almost 10,000 units of this a month? Like, what are the people buying this to use?   Sam: Right, I think the way to look at this product is that it's a form of tea and in Japan it's enjoyed as a form of tea. Now in America it's usually enjoyed in a, in a form of a latte. So imagine you have a tea and then I think in some parts of the US, like milk tea is popular, right. So in the same way you can add milk to matcha and then you get a Matcha Latte. So because people find that coffee is not working for them for various reasons whether like they feel, like you know, nervous or anxiety after that they try to find something else, right. So matcha kind of ticks all the boxes because it's got a little bit of caffeine, so you don't feel that like that anxiety that you get with coffee sometimes, and also there are like amino acids inside that help you stay alert for a longer time. So that was kind of like the health food appeal of matcha. But that's, I think, why it got popular and that's why people drink it. So we also wanted to kind of share a bit of that Japanese heritage of matcha in our product, which is why it looks the way it does, because in Japan actually the traditional way of preparing it is to take like a teaspoon of the powder, add some water and then whisk it up with this bamboo whisk until it becomes like nice and froth.   Bradley Sutton: I see that here in your A plus, your premium A plus content, so I can see a little bit of that here. You're telling that story. Really great branding here, I like that.   Sam: So they whip it up into like this frothy little mixture and I guess if you could kind of relate it back to coffee culture, I would say like it's like a Matcha Americano. That's the way that they would drink it and that's the main way it's consumed in Japan.   Bradley Sutton: Okay, now you've got just a beautiful listing here. You know, looks like premium A plus content. You're educating people here. You have a frequently asked questions, and then obviously you've got some great pictures here where you've got infographics. You've got, you know, like kind of like a history lesson of matcha. You have pictures of it. I mean what else? Like you even show the origin. I think I saw somewhere there's like different cities where this comes from. Where is that here, here? It is here Like you're like oh hey, this one is from Kyoto, this one's from Fukuoka. You have the city. So like I'm assuming that I mean, did you start this from like day one such in depth like information here, or is this just gradually how you were able to kind of hone your branding?   Sam: I think we didn't know that it would take this form at the very start. We knew that, like you know, instinctively this is the branding angle that we want to work with. But as we grew with time we know we were reacting to what's happening in the market right and how we need to kind of distinguish our brand and our product from other people and to make sure that, even though, like, they like the product but they need to have like some visual reference to kind of like make that association, to know that like, oh okay, this is now Kimatcha and I like now Kimatcha.   Bradley Sutton: You know what I'm going to check something. Hold on, let me see, I'm actually gonna run Cerebro on one of your products. I'm curious, you know you mentioned, hey, people are actually searching for Naoki Matcha. I'm just curious, like, what kind of brand recognition you have. So I'm just running Cerebro on here on our YouTube and podcast version. We'll speed this up. Let's see here, because I have a feeling, you know you've been selling for a while now and you're doing so well that there are literally people who just search for your brand name. So let's take a look at how many people are searching for your brand name here. Hold on, all right, here in Cerebro I'm gonna put phrases containing Naoki and let's apply that filter and wow, there's 45 different keywords that have Naoki in it and with thousands of search volume a month. So people like know your brand. You know just Naoki Matcha by itself has 1200 search volume and there's 45 other versions that people are actually searching for. So I mean that's kind of like what the goal is. When you're selling on Amazon, hey, sure you want people to buy you on the generic searches, like you know, Matcha Tea or Matcha Powder or something. But you know you've kind of made it when there's actually search volume for your brand.   Bradley Sutton: You guys are getting, you know, using expensive you know matcha directly from the source in Japan. You know I'm sure there maybe are some competitors going like a cheaper route. Or maybe you know, like I'm just looking here in the search for Matcha Tea and I even see you know listings that are like $9, you know $9.95. And you guys are at like $40, $39. I see some that are, well, that's a different product, but like $7, you know $15. How can you guys stay at around the top? Like I'm looking at the BSR, you're like one of the top three in the whole Matcha category. Like some people think, oh, I have to. You know, like if cheaper sources come on, I'm just going to have to try and price match and then you know race to the bottom and I like to tell people no, no, no, there's ways to still succeed even at a higher price point. What's your guys secret where you can stay at this $40 price point and still make a lot of sales despite these cheaper alternatives coming into the market?   Sam: Well, I think it's all about getting people to try it once. And once the person tries it once, right, and then they compare it to like the cheaper one that they bought before they realize, like you know, the difference is like night and day, right. So what we want to do is to make sure that they realize that they're getting like a good price for this level of quality, and once that kind of barrier is unlocked and then they realize that, hey, actually, if I pay $25 for one ounce, right, I'm getting a lot more value if I'm paying $40 for like 3.5 ounces, so the $40 one actually becomes like a good idea, even though, like it's like four times whatever is available on. You know the results when you search for matcha.   Singchuen: Just to add on to that, the cheaper matcha products are by nature of how it's grown and how it's produced. It tastes incredibly different from how matcha products of a certain price level are like because of how much more expensive it is to produce. So matcha is actually in quite a bit of a supply crunch and so there is actually not that much matcha supply to go around at the higher quality price range. In that sense, because it's so expensive, it's not possible to match the quality level if you're to go below the price. So the market kind of like segmented itself in a way. So we, as Sam has just mentioned just now, as long as we are sort of value for the price that we are offering, it's good enough for us and that's how we managed to stay above the competition. If you notice that there are other competitors that are also doing well with high BSR and they are similarly high priced. But once you do the math you realize that in addition to our better tasting product our price per gram, if you want to put it that way it's still much better than our competitors.   Sam: It's pretty competitive still.   Bradley Sutton: What's the future hold? Now you actually have Naoki Matcha in the brand name. So if you just stay with this brand, you're kind of I don't want to say limited, but it's not like you can start selling something completely off the wall under this brand, like do you have are there still enough new kinds of variations and blends that you can come up with to keep this brand going? Or have you considered, like maybe we should start something completely different, like I start a new brand? Or what's your goal for growing the business?   Sam: Right. I think for this brand there's still some room for growth, because actually so far we haven't touched the whole products that deal with, like matcha accessories. We're just starting that this year and also there are different grades of matcha right. So honestly, we are really at like that middle to high kind of grade, but we haven't really touched the other grade so far. So those are kind of like the growth opportunities that are available to us, yeah, but of course, once we hit there's a ceiling for category, once we hit that, yeah, I think you do have to choose another brand.   Bradley Sutton: Obviously, Amazon USA is your main market. Are you selling on other Amazon marketplaces? If so, which? And then also other marketplaces at all, like Walmart, Shopify or other websites?   Singchuen: We are in the UK. We're selling the exact same brand in the UK as well. It's sort of like an offshoot. We started it because some fans who have tasted it in America have gone back to the UK and so they are wondering why aren't you in the UK? So we decided to launch it over there as well, and so far the growth is okay, but not as high as in America, obviously, and in Singapore. We are on e-commerce platforms as well, and I'm not too sure we can confidently say this, but we are in the top few brands on those platforms selling decently well too.   Bradley Sutton: You know, talk about some specific strategies that you guys think have helped you get to where you are, because it's not just like I mean somebody could spend 10 years and develop like the most perfect, pure form of matcha known to mankind in history and it's meaningless, you know, without the strategy that is going to get it in front of people. So what are some of the things that set you apart from maybe the 10 other matcha people who maybe have started and gone out of business, you know, because they didn't have your strategy? What do you think set you apart from others?   Sam: Well, I think a handful of things. The first one is okay, so I think you can use. You can rely on Amazon PPC. You can look at your search term impression share reports. You can look at your keyword ranking and all that kind of stuff and that will help you in the short run. But honestly, the thing that really helped us the most was patience and making sure that your product is on a sensory level it's actually good and people like it. Once you have those two things covered, then you know you just need to get people to try to get them to tell their friends, and then, like people, their friends who are interested in matcha will buy, and then they are buying again and then this whole thing kind of grows by itself. Your PPC and all of these other tools that you have are really just like fuel that you add to this engine   Singchuen: And on the other side of things is obviously you kind of need to make sure that you treat your supplier well as well. Make sure that they understand what you're going through and make sure that you try to understand what they're going through. If language is a barrier, hire an interpreter, right, it's not too difficult. Decency goes both ways. So you may be pressed, but you got to recognize that the factories themselves, they, are pressed as well. So working together for compromise, understanding each other and not drawing too much, just to be a little bit more understanding towards each other, goes a long way. I think what tends to happen is that if you're not patient, as Sam has mentioned, you may cut off communications with factories that may help you in the future, and you don't want to do that.   Bradley Sutton: Now I'm looking, speaking of PPC, I'm looking at just what I see on Amazon and I see everything. I see sponsored product ASIN targeting campaigns right here on this one page I see you're targeting your own ASIN and sponsored display ad. I see sponsored brand ads in the search for Matcha tea. I saw sponsored brand video, regular sponsored products. So you guys are just like going all out with all the different kinds of PPC that Amazon provides. Any one of those, like you think, has performed better for you or gives you the best ROI, or is it kind of just kind of even across the board?   Sam: Well, I think at the start sponsored products perform very well, but as you get more and more ad types and different you know SV, SD, SP you mix that in. You have some DSP thrown in. The attribution for which ad actually did the sale for you gets a bit more tricky.   Bradley Sutton: That's true. That's true, yeah, because you know. But the good thing about that is you're just your top of mind because you're advertising everywhere you can. You know, like sure, maybe you don't know exactly what got the attribution, but the point is you have such a big share of voice you know, potentially, maybe compared to your competitors, that you're your top of mind for your, for your customers. Okay, so PPC is important for what's on Amazon. I'm sure you use Amazon data points as well. What about Helium 10? What's your favorite tool in Helium 10 and how has it helped you?   Sam: I think, honestly, the keyword coverage and Cerebro is still like my favorite tool. I've been using it since like 2017, when it first launched.   Singchuen: As you use, you search on Amazon and you search on other platforms take a look at how Helium 10's are like compared to others. You always use that. There's a certain sense that Helium 10's information is letting you after it. It's more of a sense. I can't really explain it, and then that really goes a long way, I think.   Bradley Sutton: Now for either of you. If there was something on your wish list for Helium 10, like, like something, maybe we don't do right now, you're like, wow, it would be so cool if Helium 10 could do this. Here's your chance to tell me what is on the matcha bros top wish list, for what Helium 10 can help now give matcha with?   Sam: Right. So I think my number one wish list would be cohort analytics. So if, for example, I can see in January how many new customers are acquired and how much, and how much of that repeat over the next 12, 24, 36 months, that would be awesome. I don't think there's none of the big analytics platforms do this. There are some specialized ones that do it that we subscribe to, but they're expensive and I'm pretty sure that you guys can do a better job.   Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. Now my last question is just, you know, you guys have reached this level of success, selling millions of dollars. Obviously you two are working together. How many people total does it take to run the Naoki Matcha machine? You know like, are you guys doing 100% of the work? Do you have virtual assistants? Do you have, you know, in Singapore staff? How many people does it take to run your business?   Singchuen: Right now we are actually quite an entity, Sam, as I'm sure you can tell from this conversation. Sam does most of the marketing and I do more of the supply side operations kind of activities. So in total we have about five people running the entire business.   Bradley Sutton: Well, this has been very enlightening. I've you know, despite knowing about you guys, almost 95% of this I think was completely new information to me and obviously new to our audience. It's great to see this success story. I love matcha, so I'm going to have to purchase your, your product, and make some. I'll be your influencer. Make some matcha, some kind of matcha. Let's see I'm going to. I wanted to make a matcha flan flan like a. I don't know if you guys know what that is. That's like a Mexican dish. So that's, I'm going to make something and then it's going to go viral on TikTok and make you guys another few million dollars just for me.   Singchuen: Thank you for your support.   Bradley Sutton: You could take me out to dinner   Sam: Yeah. Thank you and looking forward to that.   Bradley Sutton: Thank you so much for coming on, and let's have you guys back on the podcast in 2025 and let's see how you guys have grown at that time.  

Hello hello! Today I've got for you another between-season bonus episode. This time we're breaking format to talk about i know the end, a module I published earlier this year about going back home after a long time away and all the horrors that entails. Because if you can't occasionally publish something self-indulgent in your podcast feed, what's even the point of having one?My cohost for this is my friend Nico MacDougall, the current organizer of The Awards, who edited i know the end and had almost as much to say about it as I did.For maximum understanding of this episode, you can pick up a free copy of the module here and follow along (or skim it in advance).Further reading:The original i know the end cover artThe “oops all PBTA moves” version of i know the endThree of my short filmsMy previous written designer commentaries on Space Train Space Heist and CouriersJohn Harper talking with Andrew Gillis about the origins of Blades in the DarkThe official designer commentary podcasts for Spire and HeartAaron Lim's An Altogether Different River, which comes with a designer commentary versionCamera Lucida by Roland Barthes, a photography theory book that we talked about during recording but which I later cut because I remembered most of the details about it incorrectlyWhat Is Risograph Printing, another topic cut from the final recording because I got basically everything about it wrong while recording (the background texture of the module is a risograph printed texture)Before Sunrise by Richard LinklaterQuestionable Content by Jeph JacquesSocials:Nico's carrd page, which includes links to their socials, editing rates, and The Awards.Sam on Bluesky, Twitter, dice.camp, and itch.The Dice Exploder logo was designed by sporgory, and our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Grey.Join the Dice Exploder Discord to talk about the show!Transcript:Sam: Hello and welcome to Dice Exploder. Normally each week we take a tabletop RPG mechanic, bait our lines with it, and cast them out to see, to see what we can catch. But you hear that different intro music? That means this episode I'm doing something much more self indulgent, a designer commentary on a module I released earlier this year called I Know the End.And just a heads up here at the top, to get the most out of this, you probably want to have at least read through the module in question before, or as, you're listening. I threw a bunch of free copies up on itch for exactly this purpose, so feel free to go run and grab one. I'll wait.Anyway, I love designer commentaries. You can find a few of my old written ones, as well as links to a few of my favorites from other people, in the show notes. But I wanted to try releasing one as a podcast, because one, that sounds fun, and two, what's the point of having a podcast feed if you can't be ridiculously self indulgent in it on occasion?And I picked I Know The End to talk about because it is... weird. I don't know. It's weird. I describe it on itch as a short scenario about returning home and all the horrors that entails. But you'll hear us take issue with, I don't know, maybe every word in that sentence over the course of this commentary. It was a strange experience to make this thing, and I figured that might be interesting to hear about.It was also the first time I ever worked with an editor Nico MacDougall my friend and the organizer behind The Awards since 2023. Nico was excellent to work with and you can find their rates and such in the show notes and they are with me today to talk through this thing in excruciating detail as you probably noticed from the runtime we had a lot to say. Definitely contracted two guys on a podcast disease. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this. But regardless, I'd love to hear what you think of it. Should I do more? Never again? Want to organize the Dice Exploder Game Jam we mused about doing at the end of this? Hit me up! I'd love to hear from you. And now, here is myself, I guess, and Nico MacDougall, with a full designer's commentary on I Know The End.Nico: Well, Sam, thanks for being here on your podcast to discuss your... adventure.Sam: You're welcome.Nico: Yes.Sam: for having me.Nico: Very first question is adventure: is that really, like, the right term for this?Sam: Are we really starting here? Like, I, I don't know. I, I feel like I got, I really went into this thing with true intentions to write a proper module, you know? Like I was thinking about OSR style play for like the first time in my life, and like, we were both coming out of the awards 2022 judging, and a lot of the submissions for 2022 the Awards were modules. I thought that was great but it really was sort of like opening the floodgates of this style of play that I knew basically nothing about. And, at the same time that we were reading through all 200 submissions for the awards, I was also reading Marcia B's list of 100 OSR blog posts of some influence.And so I was really drinking from the fire hose of this style of play, and also, I wasn't playing any of it. Like, I was experimenting with Trophy Gold a little bit, which is this story game that is designed to try to play OSR modules and dungeons as, like, a story game kind of experience. And I was kind of figuring out how it works and like how I wanted to run it and how to make it go And Joe DeSimone, who was running the awards at the time was just encouraging everyone to make weirder shit and like, that was his ethos and those were the people that he got to submit to the awards. Like, it was just the weirdest stuff that I had ever read in the RPG space and... That's probably a lie. There's some weird stuff out there.It was just like so much weird stuff. It was like stuff on the bleeding edge of a whole side of the hobby that I didn't participate in in the first place. My intro to this part of the hobby was the bleeding edge of it. And I was like, alright, I, I just wanna make something there, I wanna try playing around there and see what happens.And Joe tweeted out the tweet was like, Now we're all making modules based on songs that make us cry. And I was listening to the Phoebe Bridgers album Punisher on loop at the time to inspire a screenplay I was working on. And the last track is called I Know the End, and just ends with this, primal scream.And it was, it was a hard fall for me, at the time. And the primal scream felt really cathartic. And I was spending a lot of time in the, small town where I grew up. And, this horror monster idea of a town that is, itself, an entity and like is a whole monster, and like, what does that mean exactly? I don't know, but intuitively, I like, understand it, and we're just gonna kind of drive... towards my intuitive understanding of what this thing is supposed to be. I just decided to do that and see what happened. And did that give us an adventure in the end? I don't know. Did that give us a 32 page long bestiary entry in the form of a module? Like, that sounds closer to right to me, but also, taxonomies are a lie and foolish anyways.I don't know, I made a weird thing, here it is. Nico: Yeah. So I was scrolling back in our, in our conversation to where you first shared this with me, and I... I would like to share with the audience the text that accompanied it. It was the Google Doc, and then it said, This might be completely unplayable, it might actually be a short story, or, like, a movie, but I'm gonna publish it anyway, and, you know... If that isn't exactly it, like...Sam: Yeah I like that stuff. I don't know, another thing I've been thinking about a lot this fall is writing by stream of consciousness. Like, I realized that I don't have a lot of confidence in any of my work that I feel like I created quickly. Like, the RPG thing I'm most well known for, I think, is Doskvol Breathes, which I just pumped out in an afternoon. It was just a thought that I had on a whim about how you might play blades in the dark maybe. And I finished it and then I released it and people were like, this is amazing. And I still get complimented on it all the time. I'm still really proud of it, but it, I don't have any confidence in it because it came so quickly.And, like, I know that this is something I need to, like, talk about in therapy, you know, about, like, It's not real art unless I worked on it for six months straight, like, really worked my ass off. But this process, I sort of looked back over my career as a screenwriter, as a short filmmaker, as a game designer, and started realizing just how many of my favorite things that I've made came from exactly that process of the whole idea kind of coming together all at once in like one sitting. And even if it then took like a bunch of months of like refining like it's wild to me How much of my favorite work was created by following my intuition, and then just leaving it be afterwards.Nico: Yeah, I actually did want to ask about the similarity between your, like, process for TTRPG design versus screenwriting, cause... While I have read, you know, edited this, but also, like, read your your game design work and know relatively well your thoughts on, like, you know, just game design sort of theory and stuff in general, I have never read any, like, screenwriting stuff that you've done. Although, lord knows I hope to see it someday. Sam: Well, listen, if anyone listening to this wants to read my screenplays, I'm on Discord. You can find me and I'll happily share them all. My old short films are largely available on the internet, too. You know, maybe I'll link a couple in the show notes.Nico: oh yeah,Sam: But I I think of my process for screenwriting as really, really structural.Like, I, I'm a person who really came out of needing a plot and needing to know what happens in a story, and to really especially need to know the ending of a story so I know kind of what I'm going towards as I'm writing the thing. I outline like really extensively before I write feature or a pilot, like there's so much planning you have to do, I think it is really, really hard to write any kind of screenplay and not have to revise it over and over and over again, or at least like plan really carefully ahead of time and like really think about all the details, revise a lot, run it by a lot of people for feedback over and over. But especially for me that, that having an ending, like a target in mind when I'm writing is so important. I just don't know how to do it without that.Except occasionally when I get some sort of idea like this one where I have a feeling of vibe and I just start writing that thing and then eventually it's done. And I, I've never had that happen for a feature film screenplay or like a TV pilot kind of screenplay.But I have had a couple of short films come together that way where I don't know what the thing is, I just know what I am writing right now, and then it's done, and then I go make it. And I I don't know why that happens sometimes. Nico: Yeah, I mean I would imagine length plays a factor in it, right? Like a short film, or, I mean, gosh, how many pages did I know the end, end, end up being? Sam: 36. Nico: But I find that really fascinating that, too, that you say that when you're screenwriting, you have to have it really structural, really outlined, an end specifically in mind, when, to me, that almost feels like, well, not the outlining part, but having an end in mind feels almost antithetical to even the idea of, like, game design, or, I guess, TTRPG design, right?Even the most sort of relatively pre structured, Eat the Reich, Yazeeba's Bed and Breakfast, like, Lady Blackbird games, where the characters are pretty well defined before any human player starts interacting with them, you can never know how it's going to end. And it's kind of almost against the idea of the game or the, the sort of art form as a whole to really know that.Even games that are play to lose, like, there are many games now where it's like, you will die at the end. And it's like, okay, but like, that's not really the actual end. Like, sure, it's technically the end, but it's like, we have no idea what's gonna be the moment right before that, or the moment before that. As opposed to screenwriting Sam: yeah, it's a, it's a really different medium. I still think my need to have a target in mind is something that is really true about my game design process too.Like the other game that I'm well known for, well known for being relative here, but is Space Train Space Heist, where I was like, I have a very clear goal, I want to run a Blades in the Dark as a one shot at Games on Demand in a two hour slot. And Blades in the Dark is not a game that is built to do that well, so I want to make a game that is built to do that well, but like, captures everything about the one shot Blades in the Dark experience that I think is good and fun .And that may not be a sort of thematic statement kind of ending, like that's what I'm kind of looking for when I'm writing a screenplay, but that is a clear goal for a design of a game.Nico: Yeah. even In the context of I know the end, and to start talking a little bit about my role in this as well, as, as the editor, I think the point of view, the vibe, the, like, desired sort of aesthetic end point Was very clear from the start, from the jump. And I think that in many ways sort of substitutes for knowing the end of the story in your screenwriting process.So that really helped when I was editing it by focusing on like, okay, here's the pitch. How can I help sort of whittle it down or enhance it or change stuff in order to help realize that goal.And sometimes it kind of surprises me even, like, how much my games shift and change as they reach that goal. Like, sometimes you can, like, look back at old versions of it, and you're like, wow, so little of this is still present. But, like, you can see the throughline, very sort of Ship of Theseus, right? Like, you're like, wow, everything has been replaced, and yet, it's, like, still the thing that I wanted to end up at.Sam: Yeah, another thing that is, I think, more true of my screenwriting process than my game design process is how very common that in the middle of the process I will have to step back and take stock of what was I trying to do again? Like, what was my original goal? I've gotten all these notes from a lot of different people and, like, I've done a lot of work and I've found stuff that I like.And what was I trying to do? Like, I have, all this material on the table now, I have, like, clay on the wheel, and, like, I just gotta step back and take a break and refocus on, like, what are we trying to do. I Think it's really important to be able to do that in any creative process.To Tie together a couple of threads that we've talked about here, talked at the beginning of this about how much this felt like a stream of consciousness project for me, that I really just like, dumped this out and then like, let it rip.But also, I mean, this was my first time working with an editor, and I think you did a lot of work on this to make it way better, like really polish it up and make those edges the kind of pointy that they wanted to be, that this game really called for. And that makes this, in some ways, both a really unstructured process for me, and then a really structured process, and... I don't know what to make of that. I think there's something cool about having both of those components involved in a process. Nico: Yeah, it is. I I very much agree that like, yeah, most of my sort of design stuff have, has proceeded very much the same way of just kind of like sporadically working on it, changing stuff, like revamping it, whatever. And it's like, it's sort of, yeah, in a constant state of fluxx up until the moment where I'm like, okay, I guess it's done now.What I was gonna say, I was gonna jump back just a point or two which is you mentioned Clayton Notestein's Explorer's Design Jam. And I was curious, like, what was your experience, like, using that design template? Sam: Yeah I really enjoyed it, I really had a good time with it. I had already gotten really comfortable with InDesign just teaching myself during lockdown. Like, that's what I did for 2020, was I, like, laid out a bunch of games myself and they all looked like shit, but they all taught me how to use InDesign as a program.And I think templates are really, really valuable. Like it's so much easier to reconfigure the guts of another template than it is to create something from scratch.And I like Clayton's template. I think it's nice and clean. I think you can see in all the publications that have come out using Clayton's template, how recognizable it is. How little most people stray from the bones of it, and on the one hand, I think it's amazing that you can just use the template and go really quickly and like, get something out.And also I just want to push on it a little bit more. I want something, like the template is designed to be a template. It is not a suit tailored to whatever your particular project is. But also, I think if I had tried to lay this out without a template, it would look substantially worse, and there are a few notable breaks here and there that I, you know, I enjoyed experimenting with. I like the use of the comments column for little artwork. I think that was a nice little innovation that I added.And, you know, I didn't write this originally to have that sort of commentary column as a part of it. Like, all of the text was just in the main body of it. And I like the way it turned out to have that sort of, like, director's commentary thing hanging out in the wings. lot of people have talked about how much they like that in Clayton's template. so I, I don't know, like I, think that on the one hand a template really opens up a lot of possibilities for a lot of people and really opened up a lot of possibilities for me, and on the other hand I do still look at it and I see the template And I'm like, I hope this doesn't look too much like every other person whoNico: Right, right. I mean, that is definitely the difficulty of providing those kinds of tools, because like, it makes it very easy to make things especially if you're sort of just getting started, or if you don't have a lot of confidence or familiarity with it inDesign or anything like that. But ultimately, I feel like Clayton himself would say that the Explorer's Design Template is not intended to be, like, the final template, right? It's intended to be, like, a tool that you can use to varying effects, right?Yeah, I was thinking about it when I was going through this earlier, and I was like, Oh, yeah, like, you only use the comments, column a few times, and then I literally only realized maybe five minutes before you said it, I was like, oh, wait, all the little artwork is also in that little column thing, like you just said, and I was like, oh, that's like, that's actually a really cool way to use the template, because that space is already provided if you include that column, but just because you have the column that's, you know, quote unquote, intended for commentary, doesn't mean you have to use it for commentary, doesn't mean you have to put text in there.Sam: Yeah, you definitely like learn a lot of stuff about the guts of the thing as you start playing with it.Nico: Yeah. is probably getting on the level of, like, pretty pointless, sort of what ifs, but I'm curious... If Clayton hadn't done the Explorer's Design Template Jam, or if you had, for whatever reason, like, not been inspired to use that as the impetus to, like, make this and get it edited and laid out and published or whatever, like, Do you think you still would have tried to use that template, or would you have just tried to lay it out yourself, like you've done in the past?Sam: Honestly, I think without the jam this wouldn't exist. I have like a long to do list of things at any given time, like creative projects I wanna on, youNico: Oh, yeah,Sam: know? And the thing that brought this to the top of that to do list was just wanting to have something to submit into that jam. You know, I wanted to work with you as an editor. I Always want to clear something off the to do list. I always want to have some kind of creative project. And, I wanted to submit something to that jam, but I think if you took any one of those away, I might not have put the thing out at all. Nico: Yeah, that's really interesting. But I guess that's also, again, kind of what a good template or layout or just tool in general can help is actually get these things made. Sam: That's what a good jam can do, too, right? I mean, there's a reason the Golden Cobra contest is something that I love. It's like 40 new LARPs every year and they only exist because the Golden Cobra is throwing down the gauntlet.Nico: That's very true. Well, maybe it's time to move along to more practical concerns Sam: Maybe it's time to do the actual commentary part of this episodeWe've done the waxing philosophical part, butNico: we, yeah, checked off that Dice Exploder box. Now it's time to do the actual game talk.Sam: your bingo cards Nico: Yeah, Sam: Yeah, so let's start with the cover.Nico: Yes, the cover, which I only realized it was a teeth, that it was a mouth with teeth open when you said in the outline, ah yes, it's a mouth with teeth. And I looked at it and I was like... Oh my god, it is. Like,Sam: I did my job so well. I wanted it to be subtle, but I always like looked at it and was like it's so obviously teeth, I'm never gonna get this subtle enough. But I'm I'm glad to hear that I succeeded.Nico: I truly don't know what I thought it was before, but it definitely wasn't teeth.Sam: Yeah. Well, it started as I'll share this in the show notes. It started as this image. It was like a 6x9 layout, and, the teeth were still there, and it was like, all black, and the teeth were this much wider, gaping maw, like, inhuman, unhinged jaw kind of situation. And then, in the middle of it, was a, like, live laugh love kind of Airbnb sign with I Know The End on it. It was like the mouth, like, eating the sign.And I liked that. I felt like, the problem with that was that... As much as creepy, live, laugh, love sign is kind of the like, vibe of this, I didn't really want to bring in the like, kitsch of that at all, like, I felt like that kitschiness would hang over the whole thing if I made it the cover, and I mean, this whole thing is just about my own personal emotional repression, right? And my feelings about my small town that I'm from, andabout like, my ambition, and, exactly, yeah.But I, I write a lot, and I make a lot of art about emotional repression , and I think the particular vibe of this game's repression doesn't have space for irony, or satire, or like, Do you wanna live, laugh, love? Like, I don't know how else to put it. Like, it just felt really wrong.It was like, if you put that into the space at all, it's gonna curdle the whole feeling. Nico: it's about the framing of it. I, know that Spencer Campbell of Gila RPGs has written something about this on his blog. I don't remember specifically what the context is, but he's a psychologist by training and is talking about how, like, the way that you frame something matters a lot to how people respond to it, right?So you like, if you're framing it as like, oh, you have, twelve things and I take away six from you, versus like, oh, you have nothing and then you are given six things. It's like, both scenarios, you like, end up with six but Sam: One feels like a letdown and one feels great. Yeah,Nico: yeah, and so I think in his article he was talking about in the, yeah, you know, tying that into the game design context, obviously.And I think it matches here where like, sort of runs the risk of like, priming people to expect kitsch, and I don't think that that's really present in the rest of the game. And that kind of mismatched expectations could really, like, lead to some problems when people are trying to, like, play the game.Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean this cover is just kind of like, oh. Like, it doesn't it doesn't really tell you much other than just like there's something back there that's maybe vaguely menacing, and that's kind of it. That's kind of Nico: Yeah.Sam: Alright, speaking of which can we, can we talk about my favorite interaction between the two of us as we were working on this?Nico: Oh, yeah, I was not sure how to bring that up. yes, please do. Now that we're moving on to... For everyone following along at home, we are proceeding to the credits page.Sam: The comment I got from you while you were editing this was, IDK if it would look different in print, but having the text so close to the edge of the page is activating my fight or flight response. And I just replied, working as intended.Nico: It yeah, I had the feeling, I think, even when I sent that, I was like, this, this is not like an accident. Like, like, like no one makes this like no one does this by accident. But, yes, truly, I hope that you are following along at home because I believe that Sam generously gave a whole bunch of community copies of this game, or made them available. Sam: I believe it was 42, 069 I'm usually doing some number like that. This game, I might have done a different number, but that's, the other games that I've done.Nico: So, but the text on this, for credits page specifically, it's truly, like, at the edge of the page. Like, it looks like it could be cut off. It's like, in print, it would be like, cut off by the process of actually like, making it. In fact, feels like if you try to send it to a printer, they could almost send it back and be like, you've gotta give us some space there. Like, you simply can't do that. There needs to be a gutter, or bleed, or whatever the term is. Like, Sam: I love it. maybe one day I will print this. Honestly, like if I become a super famous game designer or something, like, this is one of the ones that I Nico: screen, slash screenwriter.Sam: yeah, yeah. This is one of the ones I'd like to go back and hold in my hand, but I also I don't know, I just love it. I, I love designing for digital as, like, a primary thing, because I just feel like most people who play the thing are gonna play it out of digital.And I don't know if that's, like, the primary audience for a lot of modules. Like, I think there are a ton of people out there who just, like, buy the zine and hold the zine in their hand and probably never get around to playing it. But I, I love the digital. I've always loved the digital. I don't know, I just like making for it.Nico: Well I mean I was even thinking about it in the context of like, you know, how you talked about how you changed the aspect ratio, I was like thinking about that and I was like, I mean, it's not like that would be impossible to print, but like, most standard commercial printers operate in like, one of the more standard like, page sizes. Even the risograph you said is what it's called, right?Sam: The, the RISO. Yeah, I don't know if it's Rizzo or RISO, but I'm gonna sayNico: The RISO background also makes the, again, just from like a fully practical point of view, it's like you're adding color to the whole thing,Like there are many potential barriers to this as like a physical product that would, that are simply not there when you're designing for digital, so like, it is nice to have that sort of freedom, like, when you're thinking about how to lay this out or, or put stuff on here, it's like, you're freed from a lot of those practical considerations.Sam: There's a few other details I want to talk about on this page just kind of like references I'm making that are not obvious.So the first is that the header font and title font of I Know The End is a font that I ripped from Lilancholy, which is this amazing book by Snow, which is ostensibly a game, but but also a reflection on childhood and personal relationship to emotions and trauma.And I love the look of the font, but I also intentionally wanted to reference that game while I was making something that felt really personal in a similar vein. And another another reference here is that the color of the whole game, like this red, is pulled from the cover art for the Phoebe Bridgers album Punisher that I know the end is off of. I, I just found the, like, most saturated red pixel that I could on the album and was like, that's the color! I love hiding little references in every little detail that I can. Nico: Yeah, it's so interesting because I did not know any of that, you know, prior to this conversation or seeing that stuff on the outline. What did you sort of hope to achieve with those references, right? Because I can't imagine that you're plan was like, for someone to look at it and be like, oh my god, that's the Lilancholy font, and that's the Phoebe Bridgers album Sam: that's one pixel from that album cover.Yeah.What am I trying to achieve? I don't know, like there's, so the Paul Thomas Anderson movie Phantom Thread Is an amazing movie, and it's about Daniel Day Lewis being incredibly serious, scary Daniel Day Lewis, making dresses, being a tailor, and an element of the movie is that he hides his initials inside the dresses, like, when he's making them, he, like, sews his initials in.And that's a real thing that, that people did, and maybe it's just for him. It's also kind of an arrogant thing to do, you know, that all these, like, women are gonna be walking around wearing these dresses with, like, his initials kind of, like, carved, it's like this power thing. But my favorite part of it is that Phantom Thread is PT, also known as Paul Thomas Anderson.Nico: Ha Sam: And, like, like, I, I just feel like when you're doing that kind of thing, it's just, what an act, it's just so beautiful and arrogant and satisfying. Like I think doing that kind of little reference and joke for myself brings me into the mindset of what I am trying to convey with the game.Like, if I'm thinking in the detail of the font selection, what do I want to reference? What do I want to bring to this game? Then, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be thinking about that in every other choice I'm making for the game, too. And even if half of those choices end up being just for me, I will have been in the headspace to make the other half that are for everyone else, too.Nico: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. like, You could almost even call these, like, Easter eggs, right?But it also made me think about, I had to look this up actually as you were talking, because I was like, about that, the CalArts classroom number that like all of the animators that studied there fit into like Pixar movies and stuff, like, A113, A113. And I think that's also sort of a good example of it in some ways, because it's like now, with the advent of the internet, and you know, and a certain way of engaging with media, like, everyone knows what that, what that means now, or they could if they just looked it up, or they just see some BuzzFeed, you know, article that's like, you know, 50 easter eggs that you missed in the latest Pixar movie.But yeah, it's like, it's very interesting because it kind of asks who is the movie for? What's the intended or imagined audience for all of these things? And it sort of shows that, like, you can have multiple audiences or multiple levels of engagement with the same audience, like, at the same time. Maybe, I would say, it's very unlikely that any random person would just like, look at the cover of I Know The End and be like, oh, that's the Lilancholy font, but,Sam: I have had someone say that to me, though. Yeah.Nico: but, so, what I was just gonna say is like, but I don't think it's hard to imagine that like, the type of person who would, who would buy, who would be interested in I Know The End or Lilancholy, I think there's a pretty decent chance that they would be interested in the other if they're interested in one of them, right?And so it is interesting as well, where it's like, I am often surprised by like the ability of people to sort of interpret or decipher things that far outweighs my sort of expectations of their ability to do so.If only just because I have the arrogance to be like, well no one could ever have a mind like mine. Like, no one could ever think in the specific bizarre way that I do. Then it's like actually a surprising number of people think in a very similar way. Sam: Another thing I think about with making these really, really tiny references, easter eggs, it's the, not making a decision is making a decision, right? CentrismNico: Oh,Sam: Like, if you have literally anything that you have not made a choice about with intention, that is a missed opportunity, I think.And... I have so much respect for people who will just pump something out, like, write a page of a game and, like, upload as a DocX to itch. Like, Aaron King is a genius, and I know a lot of games that are put out that way, and I love that stuff. But for me, like, the kind of art creation process that I enjoy and like doing is so based on finding meaning in every crevice, finding a way to express yourself in every detail. just love doing it.Nico: you are the English teacher that the, the curtains are blue meme is referencing, in fact.Sam: Yes.Nico: The curtains are blue in I Know The End because,Sam: Well, and I know the end they are red, but Nico: yes.Imagine that being the new version of the meme: the curtains in this are red because there's a Phoebe Bridgers album that has a single pixel that is that color.Sam: Yeah, I don't know. It's true, though.Nico: Exactly. it is in fact true. But so would, in some ways, any other interpretation of...Sam: Yeah.Nico: of the red color, right? It's like you picked it because of the association with the album cover. Someone else could be like, Oh, it means this otherthing. And like that interpretation is correct. Sam: Yeah, I mean, I also picked it because of its association with blood, you know, like I, I wanted to kind of evoke that feeling too, so.Shall we do the table of contents? HehNico: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the most interesting thing to talk about, and I want to know when this entered the sort of the design process, is the blacked out Table of Contents entry which corresponds to an almost entirely blacked out, or in this case, redded out,Sam: Yeah, Nico: messily redacted,part of, the book,Sam: Yeah, I think this was always there, I think I started writing a list of locations very early on, and on that list of locations was, like, I work in Google Docs to begin with for most of my stuff, and it was a bullet pointed numbered list, and the last list item was struck through, and it was your mom's house.And I just thought that was a funny little joke. It's like really dark? Another, just like a little detail, I have such a great relationship with my parents. Like really just a better relationship with my parents than anyone I know. And, so much of my art ends up with these like, really bad, fucked up relationships with parents, and I don't know what that's about.But, there's, there's something about, there's a piece of your hometown that is like so traumatic that you can't bring yourself to look at it. There's a piece of yourself, or your childhood, or like, where you came up, there's something from your origin story that you can't bear to face is a lot of what this is about. And even as the climax of this thing is I think in a lot of ways turning to face everything that you left behind.I mean the whole module is about that but I think fact that even when you are doing that, there's one piece of it that you can't bear to look at is really tragic and a mood to me. You know, it really felt right. Nico: it's sort of like, yeah, I'm finally gonna stand my ground and face my fear, or whatever, except for that thing. That thing, that part over there, for whatever reason, because I'm actually just very afraid of it. It really, as always, is sort of like the exceptions to the rule make the rule, or emphasize the rule. You're kind of carving out the negative space around it. And it makes it clearer in so. so Well, Yeah, so like, then the first thing of the game text itself, so to speak, is like the front and back of a postcard. And where's the picture from? It looks kind of old timey in a sort of non specific way.Sam: It's from Wikimedia Commons, I believe. I was looking for pictures of old postcards, and I wanted a small town, and, this is what I found.The postcard image is actually like a hell of a photo bash too. The stamp on it is from a real postcard I received from my cousin. The handwriting was me on just like a piece of paper that I scanned, and then the postcard is another like open source postcard image.Nico: Yeah. I am, once again, sort of showing, showing a lot of my bias here. I am often kind of against a lot of little, like, accessories, or sort of, like, physical things that are often part of crowdfunding, like, stretch goals, you know, like, it's, I don't know. I don't think it's, like, ontologically evil or anything like that, it's just, I understand, it's part of the reality of crowdfunding, and, like, attracting attention, and yada yada yada, I just personally don't love that reality. Which, of course, is easy to criticize when you're not part of a project is trying to do that, but that aside, I think it would actually genuinely be very cool to have, like, this postcard as, like, a physical object like, if the game were to be printed.Sam: You gonna make me like, handwrite every one of the postcards too? Cause that isNico: I did not say that. Oh, is that really? Well, but then, then you have it already, you can just print it off, like, or you make that the, like, I don't know, the hundred dollar stretch goal, you know, they back it at that level and then the postcard just appears inside their mailbox. Like,Sam: That wa that is creepy. I will tell you that,Nico: You say that as though it's happened to you before. You're like, well, let meSam: well, I'm not, I, I revealing nothing. How autobiographical is this? Nico: Yeah. so I guess, yeah, so getting, So this is the introduction page, the background, the introduction, giving the context to what this module, extended bestiary, what have you, what it is. My question here from a sort of meta perspective is like, how much are you trying to sort of give away at the start of this? How do you pitch this to , like to someone you know?Sam: that's a great question. I'm pretty proud of the execution here. I think I do a good job of, like, leaving some juicy hints here as to what might be going on without giving anything away. Like, the fact that I advertise this as maybe closer to a bestiary entry than a module, like, uh, what? Like, like you, you have an idea of what that means, but also like, where's the monster, what is the thing that I'm looking like, that is kind of planted in your mind in a way that I think is intriguing and sets expectations without giving the whole thing away.And, also, this is just me, like, trying to figure out how to describe this thing in real time as I'm writing. It really came from intuition. Nico: yeah. I know that, you know you're on, very much on record talking about how, you know, like, taxonomy is fake and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Sam: As much as I love it.Nico: right, right, exactly, I mean, I feel the same way, but I, I am curious as to like if you were trying to sell someone on the idea of even just playing this game, like, how effective do you think it is of like communicating whatever this is, you know, like, is it effective to say it's kind of this, or it's not this, or maybe it's this, like, Sam: I think this is going to be really good at reaching the kind of person who will love this, and really bad at selling this to like a mass audience, you know? But luckily, I'm not trying to sell this to a mass audience. I'm like trying to make Joe Dissimone proud, you know? Like I'm trying to make like something as weird as fucking possible.and I think there's a kind of person who really appreciates that and this struggle to define what this is using existing terminology, I think is going to really appeal to the people who like this.Nico: yeah, I agree, I think it signposts well hey, you, there, like, look at this thing. Isn't that interesting. And if they're like, If they're like, no, that's confusing and I don't know what to do with it, and they go somewhere else, in some ways, it could be argued that that is like, working as intended, right, likeSam: I kind of find it interesting in the sidebar here to watch me sort of like struggle with how you're supposed to play this game, like what rule system are you supposed to use?I do think with some distance from this, the best way to experience this is as a solo game. Like to just read the thing but pause and journal about your character's experience as you sort of walk through it. I have started playing more solo games since I wrote this in preparation for a Season 3 episode of the show, and I think this would serve that experience really well.I considered even, like, rewriting this to be more of explicitly a solo experience, but I, ultimately was really happy leaving it in its sort of nebulous, provocative, what if, is this, what is this sort of state. Nico: Yeah. I would genuinely be interested to have like, the two of us play the game, like this game, like one running it, one as the player, because I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, might be better suited as a solo game, but I really do think that there is something that can be gained about, like being in a room with, like, one other person, or, you know, being on a call with one other person, or whatever and going through this,Sam: Yeah, yeah, I can feel the intensity of that as you describe it. And it sounds harrowing and... Amazing. I do, I do have this dream of like running a Mork Borg dungeon, like over the course of like three sessions, and then like taking one of the players who survives and being like, I've got another module that I think we should play with the same character. Nico: yeah. Anyways, you go home and you think you're safe, but actually, like, Sam: I do think that this as a response to OSR play is really an interesting way to try to play the game, like to Nico: just sort of experienceSam: Yeah, to try to take the kind of character that you would have coming out of that and the experience you would have coming out of that and then like get tossed into this, like that disorientation I think would serve this really well and would do something that I found I really like to do with the OSR kind of play of like finding ways to bring in more character stuff, to just have people to reflect on their person, rather than on the logistical problem solving.Nico: Mm hmm. Which, of course, in some ways also is like, I don't want to say direct contradiction, but like, moving perpendicular to a lot of the sort of OSR principles, rightSam: But yeah, I mean, fuck em. Nico: exactly, I mean, I'm not, saying that to discourage you from doing it, I'm just saying, like, I just think it's an interesting for those to come into sort of, conflict or, or whatever in, in that specific way.Sam: I mean, that's what the bleeding edge of something is all about, right? It's like, what are our principles? What if we throw them out? What does thatNico: Right, right. What if we smash things together that, like, should sort of repel each other like magnets? Like,Sam: Yeah.Nico: Let's move on to the town?Sam: Yeah. So this is the, like, GM spoiler page.Nico: Right.Sam: I don't know that I have a lot to say about this particular page. It's, it's the town. There are, like, two suggestions in the first chunk of this book that came from you that I think are really valuable to this. Like, the first is that the town is always capitalized throughout. Which I like sort of was doing, but you really emphasized, and I think was a great decision.And, the second is that there aren't any contractions in this book except for possessives. And, that was another suggestion that came from you, to have this sort of stilted, formal, slightly off kind of language of not having contractions, that I think serves it really well and is just really cool.Nico: Yeah, I have to give credit for that, to the Questionable Content webcomic, which is a webcomic that has been running forSam: God, is it still going?Nico: oh, it very much is still going, I, it updates Monday to Friday, and I, am reading, I am seated and reading,Sam: stopped reading that like a decade ago.Nico: It is officially 20 years old. It started in 2003.but so one of the characters in that she initially never uses contractions. It is always, it is, it is never, it's. Do not, not, don't, you know, is not, not, isn't and over time, as the character sort of gets more comfortable and starts to open up about her kind of mysterious past, and they'll deal with a lot of the sort of like, serious emotional turmoil that is present in the character, she like, starts to use contractions.And so, it's a specific device that is very weirdly ingrained in my head at this point, because I remember, like, realizing that when it was called out the first time, and then I will fess up and say I have re read the webcomic from the beginning several times. I have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. And it is always kind of a delight to go back to the beginning and see this character and to really notice that device because you know where she ends up and how much more comfortable she is and so to see that difference in the beginning makes it very effective on a reread in a way that is sort of present in the maybe subconscious the first time on the way through.Thank you. And I feel like it's similar here, not quite the same because I don't know if you would ever necessarily actively realize, like, oh, there are no sort of contractions here.Sam: and the town is never gonna stop being a entity of repression.Nico: Yeah, exactly. And so it's giving this like underlying anxiety kind of like,like, you're just like, Ooh, this is Sam: Yeah. It's like, what is going on? What's wrong with the language here?Nico: Yeah. And you might not even really be able to, articulate it because it's sort of hard to articulate the absence of somethingSam: And like, that's the feeling of the whole module. yeah, It's, it's just, it's a great decision. Nico: Yeah. And then of course, capitalizing town, you know, are you even really a game designer if you're not capitalizing some random words in Sam: yeah. gotta have one at least, come on.Sam: I will say I really enjoy the fact that I give no origin story for the town. I think that's also really powerful, of leaving a hole that people can fill in if they want.The mom repression stuff is kinda like that too, the like, the blacking out sharpie. Of like, that's a hole you could fill in in play if you wanted to, but I, I'm not going to. I'm gonna intentionally leave that hole there.Nico: It also is the kind of thing, right, of like, oh gosh, Nova was saying this in the Dice Exploder Discord recently, where like, part of the reason the OSR can be so sort of rules light and stripped down is because like, it is relying a lot on the sort of cultural script of like, what is a fantasy role playing game, or even just like a fantasy story in general, you know? What your knowledge of an OSR game is.And this, in a similar way, is sort of like, you know what a hometown is. Like, you know, I don't need to tell you what the backstory of this is, because you know what it's like to be from somewhere. Cause it's also worth saying, like, this game does not give any character creation instructions, right? I mean, actually, I guess that's not entirely true, because underneath the postcard, you know, it just says, A decade or more gone since you fled the small backwater town that spawned you.And it's like, yeah, that's basically all the sort of character creation information you need, like,Sam: yeah, yeah, like wait, gonna play yourself and you're gonna be sad about this, like uh, Nico: Right, or, like, or if you're not playing yourself, you are playing a person who's sad about it, like, you know, it's like, it's kind of all you really need, Sam: you have internalized the tone of this thing, like, your character is in ways the negative space of the voice of the text. Nico: Like, a weird relationship with your small hometown, we just don't need to spend very much, time covering that broad background. It's much better spent covering the specific, like, locations and people in this town that also sort of help to convey that, feeling, that information.Sam: Temptations and terrors?Nico: Yes, probably The closest thing to a system that is in here, inasmuch as it's taken roughly verbatim from Trophy Dark Sam: yeah, I do think it is notable that when I wrote this I had not played Trophy Dark, and Trophy Dark is the one where you definitely die,Nico: Right. Right. Sam: My intention was not that you would definitely die in this. I really want escape to be a big possibility at the end and so it's interesting that I went with Trophy Dark as, like, the obvious system.Yeah, I like these lists. This is just a lot of tone setting, basically, right? I don't have a lot to say about the details here. The first terror, a children's toy, damp in a gutter, is a reference to another song that makes me cry. The Rebecca Sugar song for Adventure Time, Everything Stays.But most of the rest of this is just, vibes. Here's some vibes. I don't know, I re read these lists and I was like, yeah, they're fine, great, next page. But I don't know, is there anything that stands out to you here?Nico: I mean, I think the most important thing about these lists, these kinds of things, you could maybe even sort of broaden this to like pick lists in general, is that, they kinda need to do two things, like they need to both give you a good solid list of things to pick from, if you're like, at a loss, or if you just are like, looking through it, and you're like, this is good, I want to use this.Or, the other purpose of using it is to have it sort of identify the space that you're playing in to the point where you can come up with your own thing that like, could just be the next entry on that list, right? For me at least, the whole point of like, buying a game is like, I want something that I like, can't essentially come up with by myself, you know? Because I like to be surprised, I like to be sort of challenged, I like to be inspired, and so I think a really good game is one that you sort of like, read it, and you're like, okay, like, there's great things to use in here that I'm excited to use. I also, after having read this, am coming up with my own ideas. Like, equally long, if not longer, list of things that like, fit into this perfectlySam: Bring the vibes of your small town. Nico: Yeah, exactly, that I could also use. It's like, and so it's like, it's kind of funny that like, for me at least, the mark of a good game is like oh yeah, you both want to use everything that's contained in it, and also you immediately get way more of your own ideas than you could ever use when you're running the game.Sam: Yeah. Next?Nico: Yes. Act 1. Sam: I love this little guy, I love Wes he's just kind of a pathetic little dude, and I feel sad for him.Nico: It's so funny, too, because this particular little guy, like, doesn't look very pathetic to me. Like, he looks like he's kind of doing okay. Sam: I definitely like drew, like all the art in the book I drew, and I did it by just drawing a lot of little heads, and then assigning them to people. Like, there were a couple where they were defining details about how the people looked, that I knew I needed to draw specifically. But in general, I just drew a bunch of heads and then doled them out, and like, this is the one that ended up on Wes. And, I think that the contrast between, like, in my mind, Wes is this skinny, lanky, little kid, you know, he's like early 20s, finally making it on his own, and he has no idea what the hell's going on with the world, and he always looked up to you, and he's finally getting out of town. And then he's, he's like overcompensating with the beard for the fact that he's like balding really early, and like, you know, he's, I don't know, like, I think the contrast is just fun.Nico: I love this whole life that you have for this, this little, this little guy, like, which is, I can't stress this enough, mostly not contained in the text,Sam: Yeah. yeah. I think a good NPC is like that. I think it's really hard to transcribe the characters we get in our heads.Nico: yeah, Sam: I really like the, the pun in the Town Crier, I mean like the Town Crier feels like a horror movie trope, like the old man who's gonna be like, You got don't go up to the cabin! But it's also, like I wrote that down first and then just started describing this Wes guy and then I was like I'm gonna just like make a pun out of this.This is something I did all the time while writing this, was I had, like, a little oracle going, actually, at a certain point, like, in the same way that you would in a solo game with an oracle. Like, if I was stuck for an idea, I would just roll on the oracle table and then, like, fill in a detail that was somehow related to the oracle. Nico: Mhm. Sam: That, that didn't happen here, but the idea of, Oh, I want a little bit more description for this guy, like, what should I do? I, like, pulled the word crier, and then was like, Oh, that's really interesting, like, when would this guy have cried? Like, oh, that's a great question, let's just, like, put that to the player. I'm always, like, a thing in screenwriting that is really hard to do, and that I'm always looking for is, like, really good, pithy character descriptions.Like, a friend of mine loves the one like, this is a woman who always orders fajitas at a Mexican restaurant because she loves the attention that she gets when the fajitas come out.She hates fajitas. And that description just says Nico: That's Sam: much. It's so good, right? And that one's even a little bit long for like a screenplay, but it'd be great for like an RPG thing, right?And something about like Here's a little bit about this guy. You remember when he was crying once, like a baby? What was the deal with that? Like, it's such a, like, defines everything else about him. Like, I, I, I'm really proud that.Nico: Yeah. No, that's, that's how I felt a little bit with I ran Vampire Cruise at Big Bad Con this year. And that game has some of, like, the best random NPC generating tables that I've, like, ever seen and played with.I remember one specifically, it was, like, I was like, rolling to generate a passenger, and I think it was like, the secrets part of the table, or something like that, and what I rolled was like, regrets that she never got to see the dinosaurs, and it's like, what does that mean?Like, like, Sam: She had a traumatic experience at a science museum as a kid, or maybe she's like 10 million years old, like, I don't...Nico: or, yeah, or she's just like a weirdo who like really loves dinosaurs? It's like, it's, Like, it really gives you sort of what you need to just sort of like, spin a world out of that specific detail. Sam: It's weird because I like completely agree with you, and you know, I was tooting my own horn about like this question about Wes sobbing and also like, in every single spread of this thing, I'm taking like two full pages to talk about like one or two NPCs, which is a terrible way to do the thing that we are talking about doing. Like,Nico: That is true, that is, it must be said,Sam: it makes it feel so much more like a short story, or maybe like a solo game, right? It's like, eh, spend two pages, like, getting to know this guy. Nico: who won't come up again, spoiler alert, Sam: Yeah, it feels like the right call for this thing where like, I mean it's like the text is forcing you to sit with the memory of this guy, it's like forcing you to come in and like spend more time than you would like to like back at home with these people.And there's some like location context built into all these descriptions too, and we like learn about the bakery thing here and like old stories and stuff. And like, already it's like, do we need that shit to run this game? Like, absolutely not, like, get, get out of the way, like, but also, I don't know, it feels right?And it's one of the things that makes all this weird and, you know, unrunnable.Nico: Which is of course the goal, we don't want people to run this. Yeah, no, that's something that I've thought about in my own games as well, is, is, and just sort of like, my life, I guess, is sort of like, what makes a place that place, you know, like, what makes a town a town, what makes a city a city, like, is it the people who live there? Is it the places? Like, again, kind of back to the sort of Ship of Theseus metaphor, it's like, if everyone you know leaves, and a lot of the stores turnover, like, is that still your hometown? Like... Does your relationship to it change?And so I, in defense of, of what we're doing here, it makes a lot of sense to spend so much time thinking about the people and the places that are here because that also basically is the game, right?Like, like, this is not a dungeon crawl, right? Like, this is not a hack and slash thing, It's not a dungeon crawl, like, Sam: it's a person crawl. Nico: Yeah, exactly, you're yeah, the point of you coming home is you're trying to find Sidra, the person who sent you this postcard, asking you to come home, and yeah, you're basically doing a point crawl, trying to find this person.And then there are various conditions that need to be in place for you to actually find them = And yeah, so it's like, using more words than a sort of your standard OSR like dungeon crawl or point crawl or whatever, or hex crawl, but like, it's kind of the same way where it's like, yeah, but like, that's the game, that's the adventure, like, Sam: yeah, yeah. Another detail here I'm really proud of is the like, offhand remark about how Wes and Sidra aren't talking for what are probably romantic reasons. Because the implication, there's like a strong implication that you, player, have some sort of romantic history with Sidra, like, whether it was ever consummated or not. And I love the just sort of, like, offhand, Wes and Sidra had a thing that didn't work out, because it both... leaves open your potential romantic relationship with Sidra, but also like complicates it and like darkens it from whatever sort of nostalgic quote unquote pure like memory of it you had.And I love that it just sort of brings a little complexity into what happens when you leave for 15 years. And then like what it feels like when you like, hear, oh yeah, your ex has been like, dating someone for a couple years. What were we talking about? Like just that, like sometimes like a bolt of like, information about like, someone from your past that like, you care a lot about will just hit you and you'll be like, oh, wait, what? And we're just I'm supposed to just like, take that and move on? Like, yeah, yeah, Nico: It's also a very small town, right, where it's a sort of like, oh yeah, passing reference to this because everyone knows this already, right? Like, this is old news as well as, like, in a small town, it's like, there's a small pool of people your age that you're interested in, so, not like you're gonna get with all of them inevitably, but it's like, yeah, there's a pretty high chance that you might.Last thing I did wanna say on this, do you wanna share what Wes's name was in the first draft of this that I received?Sam: What was it? I don't rememberNico: It was Glup Shitto. It was, it was one of the first comments I left! It was one of the first comments I left! I was like, Sam, you've gotta know this can't be the final thing, right?Sam: knew it couldn't be the final name. But there was something really funny to me about like the one person who like doesn't fit into town, like this little fucking Star Wars fanboy like schmuck kid is just Glup Shitto. And he's leaving town cuz like when you got that name, it doesn't fit anymore. You gotta get the fuck out of there.No wonder the town couldn't absorb him. His name was Glup Shitto.Nico: I want to say, like, I might have, like, made my first round of comments because I was, like, yeah, feeling the same way of, like, okay, obviously this is not the finalSam: yeah, yeah, I just didn't change it and you were likebruh Nico: and then, yeah, and then you, like, made changes based on the comments that I left, and I went back to it, and I'm like, it's still Glup Shitto. Like, it simply can't be this! It's not allowed! It's, it's not legal! Like, Sam: there ought to be a law.Nico: yeah.Sam: Alright, let's do Act 2 gosh.Yeah, so I made this little map. I like the little map. This is just my hometown, incidentally. Like, there's so much in this that is just, like, pulling details directly from my hometown. That oracle that I mentioned earlier, like, Northfield, Minnesota was, like, one of the things on the oracle. And you can see that here in like, the riverwalk and this little bridge over it was very Northfield. the Rube, which we're getting to next, these two bars, the kind of cowboy themed bar thing was a thing.Nico: Again, it's a very small town of just like, no sort of reasonable business person would have these specific Sam: yeah, but they, they exist here for some reason Nico: it almost feels like the kind of thing where it's like, like they can exist in a really small town, because it's sort of like, well they're the only things here, and they can exist in like New York City Sam: yeah. Nico: everything's in New York city, and like every kind of place is there, but like anywhere in between, people would just be like, I don't understand, and then it goes out of business,Sam: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, doctors always also a big portion of my childhood and my past always coming up in my stuff just because I spent so much time in hospitals as a kid. So the, inclusion of a doctor here is also very much something coming out of my hometown.I like the little mechanic here of, like, rolling and you, like, add one every, every time. I think that's a nice sort of way to handle trying to find Sidra. Nico: as like a classic Nico mechanic 'cause I simply haven't made and published that many things. But in my mind, my narcissistic fantasy, it is a classic me mechanic.Sam: I believe that came from you.Nico: I fucking love a table that like evolves over time.And it's not like I invented it, but like, I think my more standard thing is sort of like you have a table of like 12 things, and then you change which die you roll on it, you know, it's like, oh you can do like a d4 through d12 or whatever and that's like, I really like the ability to sort of go back to a table and, like, use it multiple times as opposed to, like, Okay, we have one table for this, we have a different table for that, you know.Sam: Additional persons. I really like this format for sort of generic NPCs, like, I'm not gonna tell you anything about this person, but I am gonna tell you what you think about them and your relationship to them.I think it's a really cool way of doing... Oh, do you just need to, like, bring someone in? You, like, met someone on the street or whatever? In a lot of other settings, you would just have, like, a random person, and it would be, like, the Vampire Cruise thing. If you give them an interesting detail in here, it'd be a cool thing.But I think, especially in, like, a small town format, the, like, here's your relationship to this person, because everyone knows everyone, and, every character that comes in, like, is gonna have to inspire some kind of feeling and past in you. I think this works really cool, reallyNico: It also feels very sort of true to life in terms of, at least, how I often GM things. Someone will be like, hey, can I, like, ask just, like, the next person I see on the street what they know about this thing? And I'm like, I mean, I fuckin I guess, like, it'll shock you to learn I don't have a name for that person, but, you know, I just have to, like, come up with, like, here's a weird voice, and like, a random thing they know, and like here's a name, Sam: This is a great way to turn that experience back on the player.Nico: exactly, yeah, there's this random person, you're like, alright, this is someone who owes you an apology, why is that?Like, Sam: yeah, Nico: I also wanna say that I feel like this was actually a relatively late addition to theSam: Yeah, it was. I always intended to write these, but it was like the last thing that I wrote.Nico: Yeah.Sam: Yeah.Nico: There was definitely some time when I sort of came back and looked at it, and all of a sudden there was this relatively large additional persons section in here, and I was like, huh, interesting.Sam: Yeah. I'm happy with how it came out. I think these are my best little guys. Nico: Oh yeah, Sam: I really like the unfinishedness of these little guys that you can project a little bit of yourself onto them while there's still some, like, major details there. This someone you seek vengeance upon looks a lot like a penis, and I don't know how I feel about that one, butNico: I was gonna say, I find that one fascinating as the ide

Today's guest is Tom Dunkel.   Having spent his early career as an accomplished corporate finance leader with over $1.2B of middle-market M&A and financing transaction experience, and possessing a proven track record as a trusted decision-making partner to C-level executives, Tom turned his entrepreneurial energy and enthusiasm toward building a self-storage investment business.   Show Summary:    Tom shares his journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship, discussing his experiences in self-storage, short-term rentals, and distressed mortgage debt. He emphasizes the importance of utilizing technology and marketing strategies in the self-storage industry, and shares insights on market dynamics and competition.  -------------------------------------------------------------- Intro [00:00:00] Tom Dunkel's background and journey [00:01:27] Reasons for pivoting businesses [00:04:24] The importance of KPIs for mom and pop operators [00:11:13] The advantages of raising rates in self-storage [00:12:08] Factors influencing being a price leader or follower [00:13:11] Closing [00:22:36] -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Tom:  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tom.dunkel.1  https://www.facebook.com/belrosestoragegroup Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomdunkel/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/belrose-storage-group/ Web: https://belrosestoragegroup.com/   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Tom Dunkel (00:00:00) - Over the past 40 years, the US economy has been bouncing around like a really wicked roller coaster. Right? Good times, bad times, everything in between. But storage, it's like. It's like that lazy river. Sam, when you got your little cocktail, you're floating around at your resort on your little inner tube there. I mean, it's just gently meandered between about 80 and 90% for that same time period, 40 years. So we really like that, that steady predictability and the increasing demand, and that's high cash flowing business. So we're really enjoying it. Welcome to the How to scale.   Sam Wilson (00:00:33) - Commercial real estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Tom Dunkel is a former aerospace M&A guy. He's got 17 years as a full time real estate investor. If you don't know, Tom actually came back on the show September 18th of 2022, which if I'm not mistaken, that was episode number 658. If you want to go back and hear a little bit more of Tom's story, you can go back there again.   Sam Wilson (00:01:04) - Check that eight. Check that out on September 18th of 2022, Episode 658. Otherwise, Tom, welcome to the show. There are three questions that I always ask every guest who comes on. I know you got this question last time, but maybe you'll answer it differently this time. And if our listeners haven't heard that, they want to hear it again anyway. So where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there? In 90s or less?   Tom Dunkel (00:01:27) - Got it. Thanks, Sam. It's great to be with you and the listeners once again. Great show. Yeah. So as you mentioned, I started out in corporate America after business school was I was kind of the number crunching, you know, Excel spreadsheet nerd. I was putting together the projections and the pro formas for our aerospace acquisitions, doing the valuations, doing the the, the market work to see like, who are the competitors out there, What were they doing, You know, how could we position ourselves and all those kinds of things.   Tom Dunkel (00:01:59) - So I got to work with some amazing people Harvard MBAs, Wharton MBAs, Naval Academy graduates, Chicago MBAs, retired Air Force colonels, and even some astronauts. And if you catch up with me after the show, if you visit with me on my website, I'll be happy to share with you the two astronauts that I've actually had lunch with. But yeah, so from there, Sam went into a couple other jobs corporate wise, and I just knew all along that, you know, scraping and clawing up that corporate ladder just, just just wasn't for me. I knew there would be a better way. So 2006, I got my opportunity when I was fired for my corporate job. Finally gave me the kick in the pants that I needed to go out and do my own thing. So of course, 2006 was a rough time to get started in real estate. But, you know, I went in full bore and got my butt whooped pretty good those next few years. But, you know, learned a lot, got some battle scars and but persisted.   Tom Dunkel (00:03:01) - And now here, 17 years later, I've built multiple seven and one eight figure business and now we're in the self storage space, which is a ton of fun. And I'm sure we'll get more into the details there later. But in the 90s, that's the story.   Sam Wilson (00:03:19) - That's the summary. I love it. I love it. Have you always done just self storage or do you have other real estate holdings as well?   Tom Dunkel (00:03:28) - Yeah. So right now self storage is our primary business, but we do through the years, of course, being entrepreneurs, we try out different things. So we also do have a short term rental portfolio in the there's a, there's a mountain in Lake Region here north of Philadelphia called the Poconos. And so we picked up some Airbnb rentals up there, which were really hot during Covid. And then we also have a distressed mortgage debt business. And that was the business that I started after getting my butt whooped in the residential world in 2009, I started buying notes and then 2010 and etcetera.   Tom Dunkel (00:04:05) - And that business has done real well for us over the years.   Sam Wilson (00:04:08) - Considering the various businesses that you're involved in. What were some of the hallmark or hallmarks, rather, of why you pivoted from one to the next? And was there any expense in not staying with just one?   Tom Dunkel (00:04:24) - Yeah, that's a great question, Sam. So distressed mortgage debt has been great. I mean, we've generated over $53 million of revenue in that business and we're not a big company. So that's that's done real well for us. Problem is, it's extremely unpredictable and it's not like we can go up to Big Bank USA, knock on the door and say, hey, sell us some loans. So we were strictly at their behest, you know, their whim as to what loans they were going to sell, how many and when. And so for like an MBA guy like me, you know, taught how to put business plans together and KPIs and whatnot, I mean, it just became impossible to really predict the future in any way, shape or form for distressed debt.   Tom Dunkel (00:05:04) - So even though that business is still rolling today, it's strictly, you know, when when a deal comes up, we kind of shift and we jump at it. We have a team that's able to do that and then we got to shift back. But so along the way, we had been looking for an asset class where there was some predictability. You know, there was some staleness there was, you know, a way to put a plan together and put a team together and really, you know, build a business. So we actually started out looking at private lending, hard money lending, and we really liked that business. And we still do a little bit of it sort of on the side. But but we were just not able to get the traction to get that business up and running. And one of the big reasons is its super duper competitive. So that's a big takeaway I would give the folks out there is, you know, be careful about what asset class you choose because if it's super competitive, you know, you're going to have a hard time making hay.   Tom Dunkel (00:06:02) - So when that business didn't work out the first time, we thought, Hey, let's try this again. We did this so good the first time. So we failed at that business twice. And we start we got involved with the title company and because again, we thought that was going to be a lot of a lot of small transactions and predictable, but again, couldn't find really the right relationships and team to put to bear there. And then about 2017, 2018, we started hearing more and more about self storage. We were like, Hmm, okay, this is checking a lot of boxes, very fragmented industry. So it's, you know, there's a lot of moms and pops. The big names that you've heard of out there, they only control about 30% of the market, the public storage, extra space, cube, smart, etcetera, those big guys. So the vast majority of the market is just small ones, two mom and pop owners, which was very attractive. The second thing we found super attractive was just the adopt, the adaptability, the market penetration of self storage.   Tom Dunkel (00:07:03) - A few years back, only about 8% of households in the US, we're using storage. Fast forward to today, it's going on 11% and increasing and I know maybe 3% doesn't sound like a lot, Sam, but when you consider there's 120 million households in the country, every 1% move is 1.2 million new self storage customers. And they're just not building them fast enough. So we've got increasing demand, you know, supply increasing not as much, which means there's going to be upward pressure on rates, which is awesome. And then I guess the last thing I would throw out there is just that over over time, over the past 40 years, you know, the US economy has been bouncing around like a really wicked roller coaster, right? Good times, bad times, everything in between. But storage, it's like it's like that lazy river. Sam, when you got your little cocktail, you're floating around at your resort on your little inner tube there. I mean, it's just gently meandered between about 80 and 90% for that same time period, 40 years.   Tom Dunkel (00:08:06) - So we really like that, that steady predictability and the increasing demand, and that's high cash flowing business. So we're really enjoying it.   Sam Wilson (00:08:15) - No, I think that's all of those are excellent, excellent reasons to get involved. I'm I'm shocked that 30% only 30% of the self storage market is controlled by big names. That's a shocking statistic to me. The big one, I would not have guessed that today that that's still. But that's still the case. Which obviously I guess it is. I would think that that though having those big industry names behind it, like those those consolidating entities, is probably a good thing, just in the sense that it brings market awareness. It brings. I mean, it has to improve resale value of your guys facilities if you decide to resell it all, if that's even part of your strategy. Is that not a fair, fair analysis?   Tom Dunkel (00:09:07) - Yeah. So so the rights are it's kind of a double edged sword with them. So if they are in a market where we are, they I mean, they have a lot of sway, right? They've got big marketing budgets.   Tom Dunkel (00:09:19) - You know, it's usually a big shiny building right on the corner in the middle of town, you know, that kind of thing. So when they come into town, especially if they're building a new facility, what they will do is they'll really drive down the rates in the entire market just to get their facility filled up. And then they'll kind of boil the frog slowly and up, up, up the rates. And so, you know, in that situation, we have to follow them, unfortunately. So that's part of our analysis. When we are looking at acquiring a facility, we're looking to see who are the competitors. Is it, you know, is it Joe's self-storage or is it, you know, public storage? And do we So we need to be cognizant of the fact that there are there is a REIT or our REIT's in the market. And so that's just going to just make us think a little bit more about how we're going to address that. But yeah, the the thing though is if they are already established in the market, they're going to be pushing rates.   Tom Dunkel (00:10:16) - So that's the other edge of the sword is, you know, we can then ride that wave as well by. Either, you know, doing maybe a small discount off of what they're doing or if all the facilities in the in the market are full, which does happen, then we know we can really kind of push that demand curve and push those rates and just kind of see where that equilibrium is and and really be more aggressive about bumping up our rates. Yeah.   Sam Wilson (00:10:45) - That's interesting. I would have I mean, it makes sense, obviously what you said, but I would have guessed the other way around would be that your mom and pop owners would be the ones that are keeping prices artificially low because, well, you know, we've all we just had our prices here and we don't want to upset our customers. So we're going to keep it here. It's like.   Tom Dunkel (00:11:05) - No, you're spot on. That's 100% correct. Sorry if I got off on a off the rails there, but no, no, you're 100% correct.   Tom Dunkel (00:11:13) - And that's one of the things we look for when we're acquiring a facility is a mom and pop, you know, their big KPI. And we're talking about KPIs, key performance indicators before we hit record. And that's their like only KPIs seems like is are all my units full, right? That's what the mom and pop operator does. The last thing they want to do is have to have to have a fancy website or implement technology or a marketing program or, you know, God forbid, throw out some Google ads, you know, something like that. It's just not how they run their business. Right. They're just looking for that mailbox money and they know their rates are low. They know that their delinquencies are high, but they just don't want to upset the apple cart because they know they know all their customers a lot of the time. Right.   Sam Wilson (00:12:02) - That makes that makes a lot of sense. But, I mean, that's where the that's where the meat on the bone lies, right? It's like, okay.   Tom Dunkel (00:12:07) - 100%.   Sam Wilson (00:12:08) - 100%. I'm thinking about a which we're we're long in the laundry business. And I was thinking about a store we just bought and we literally raised rates 53%.   Tom Dunkel (00:12:19) - Oh, yeah, right.   Sam Wilson (00:12:21) - Because it's who knows how long it's been since they've raised rates. I mean, of course that's right. It's all the little sophisticated. I'm not going to call it sophisticated little things that you can do that drive a business in a meaningful way that you just mentioned. Like. Yeah. Oh, hello. Google ads. Okay. Pay per click campaigns. Okay, we're marketing. Okay. We have a phone line.   Tom Dunkel (00:12:40) - Right?   Sam Wilson (00:12:42) - I mean, how many of these facilities you're buying where you're like, you guys don't have a site and a phone number that there's a.   Tom Dunkel (00:12:47) - Person and we're actively surveying the market to see like who's charging what and how busy are they, Right?   Sam Wilson (00:12:54) - Yeah. And those are those are where your competitive edges lie. What's your thought? Maybe you answered this, but I'm going to ask it again anyway just to see if there's more more to this than not.   Sam Wilson (00:13:05) - What's your thought on being a price leader or a price follower?   Tom Dunkel (00:13:11) - Yeah, good question. You know, and I hate to I hate to say this, but it's going to depend on the market. So, for example, we acquired a facility in Mount Airy, North Carolina, a couple of years ago. And the entire market in our analysis, we discovered that the entire market was full. And so we knew when we acquired our facility there, Granite City Storage, we knew that if there's a customer in that market that wants a storage unit, they're going to have to pay more because if we bump up the rates even on our existing customers, where are they going to go? So we we were able to successfully play that game in that market and we increased our rates about 21% in the in the first few months. And then we were just able to bump it up kind of incrementally from there. But yeah, I mean, that's that's a big factor is what's going on at the other stores.   Tom Dunkel (00:14:06) - But like we talked about a minute ago, you know, if there's a big new development going in and there's a REIT coming in, you know, we're going to be more of a price follower in that situation. Oh, and what I meant to add on to for my first example in North Carolina, all the other competitors in that market, they followed us after they saw that we were bumping up our rates. They all, you know, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump up their rates. Right. And then, you know, we I don't remember getting like a holiday card or like a commission check that year from those guys, but we should have for sure. But yeah, on the other side with the with the big rates coming in or big developments coming in you know you're going to end up most times being a price follower in that situation.   Sam Wilson (00:14:55) - Right Yeah it's it's a it's a temporary race to the bottom.   Tom Dunkel (00:15:00) - That's right. But but honestly, which is why I'm sorry to interrupt, but which is why like, you know, people look at these really hot markets, you know, like down in Florida and, you know, millions and millions of people moving there, or at least hundreds and hundreds of thousands.   Tom Dunkel (00:15:16) - But we don't like to see that the market being too hot because we know that's going to attract the REIT's. You know, so we're looking for that Goldilocks situation where it's growing but enough to increase demand but not enough to increase, to increase or attract a lot of competition.   Sam Wilson (00:15:35) - What's one of the things that you have done from a management perspective and you're based in Wayne, Pennsylvania, so. That's right. And you're buying things in Mount Airy, North Carolina. That's more that's more than a five minute drive from your house.   Tom Dunkel (00:15:50) - That's right.   Sam Wilson (00:15:51) - So how how have you established systems and got the in and established the right people to manage these at scale from a distance?   Tom Dunkel (00:16:02) - Yeah, I mean, that's really, you know, the magic, you know, the secret sauce, although it's not very secret. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. It's. It's getting the right team together, right with the right systems. And of course, we're leveraging technology to the max. So those moms and pops that we buy from, a lot of times they don't even have a website.   Tom Dunkel (00:16:24) - And if they do, it's stale information. You know, it's rates from a few years ago and the phone numbers wrong, you know, all those kinds of things. So we implement what we call a hybrid management strategy. So each of our facilities has a human that is assigned to it. But because we leverage technology, the phone number that is at the facility, you know, if they call our facility in Douglasville, Georgia, it's going to ring on the cell phone of the human manager. But they might be out in Missouri. And so but because of technology, they're able to answer the phone. Hi, it's Douglasville Self Storage. And then, you know, nine times out of ten, they can handle whatever the customer inquiry is just right there on their smartphone. Right. And in the event that the manager is busy or maybe they are not able to pick up the phone, if the customer is at the facility, they're going to they're going to see one of these they're going to see a QR code.   Tom Dunkel (00:17:28) - And if anyone out there wants to have a little fun, you can scan this on your phone and you can run a unit from us at our Baltimore facility. But the the customer can just go up, scan that QR code, it'll take them to the website, They can fill out all their personal information load in their credit card for autopay, which is awesome. And then just sign the contract with their finger. And then once they submit all that, they get a gate code texted to them while they're right there standing outside the gate punching the gate. Code gate opens up. They go inside, they find their unit, empty out their stuff, lock it up, and they're on their way without having to interact with the human at all. So so we love doing that and it allows us to really drive down our operating expenses at our facilities, which is everyone out there, I'm sure knows because you've got a smart audience that drives up net operating income, which drives up the value of the facility, which is the whole purpose of our value add strategies that we implement.   Sam Wilson (00:18:32) - And it improves the customer experience. I mean, that's the last thing is, yes, it drives up in why. But Tom, if you gave me the option to rent from you where I can do it from my phone, plug in my information and be done in five minutes versus walking inside hand it being handed, you know, 42 pieces of paper and filling out all information.   Tom Dunkel (00:18:51) - That's right. That's right. And and you got that generational difference, too, right? I mean, you know, millennials are our biggest generation right now in the US. And that's you know, they were all born with a smartphone in their hands. Pretty much. Right. Right.   Sam Wilson (00:19:05) - For better and probably for worse. That's right. Yes. That's that's very, very true. Tom, we've got a few minutes here left, and I wanted to highlight a couple of things and just get your thoughts on them. This is, again, you know, the fact that we talked about this in the beginning. You came on September 18th or the show published September 18th of last year.   Sam Wilson (00:19:25) - Some things have changed. It's some things have changed in the financing side of things. On the sales side of things. Yeah. Tell me, how are you guys navigating the current lending environment? How has that affected deal flow? How has it affected pricing fast? Three questions and money as opposed to ask one at a time. So it's up to you now.   Tom Dunkel (00:19:45) - Sure. Yeah. I mean, things have certainly been dynamic the past nine months since we spoke last. And, you know, rates are interest rates are up, you know, 4 or 5%. I mean, which is huge, right? I mean, we were doing deals that, you know, three and three quarters or 4% debt back then. But, you know, now it's a different ballgame. And, you know, we've been able to adapt. Of course, none of this was really a surprise. I mean, we all saw, you know, all the money that had been printed and, you know, that inflation was coming and that was going to push up rates.   Tom Dunkel (00:20:17) - And so we, you know, having been around, you know, the deals and projections and all that for for many, many years, jeez, you know, Wow. Going on 30. Wow. Anyway, I'm not that old. So we knew this was coming, right, Sam So we were we were already adjusting our models, adjusting our exit Capri assumptions and our future rate assumptions and all those kinds of things. And and so we've, we've been very disciplined and about the facilities that we purchased. And for that reason, we've, we haven't purchased a whole heck of a lot. I mean, we're we just closed on our 13th facility. We've got our 14th coming up here soon. But our acquisition pace definitely slowed down because. A lot of sellers were looking back a year saying, Oh, I want that value, you know, from back then. And we're saying, Well, sorry, that's off the table now because our cost of capital is up and we have return targets that we need to hit for our investors.   Tom Dunkel (00:21:15) - So that's definitely slowed us down. But I guess the good news about that is because of the run up in pricing the last few years, there's a lot of owners out there sitting on a lot of equity and that has allowed us to to take advantage of seller financing. So we have we did a seller financing deal in the fall and we have two seller financing deals lined up here that are that will be closing here in the next month or two. And the beautiful thing about that is, well, it's really a win win, right? Because the seller, they're not getting a big tax hit right up front because if they took the whole purchase price, net purchase price and in cash, they'd have to pay a big chunk of taxes on that. So seller financing allows them to kind of push push out their tax liability there. And then for us, there's no big onerous underwriting process that you have to go through with an institutional lender. There's typically no personal guarantees, which again, on smaller deals from a credit union or a small local bank, there's going to be looking for personal guarantees, and the terms are typically pretty great.   Tom Dunkel (00:22:25) - So we're seeing interest only payments, which of course means lower lower payments, higher cash flow left over for our investors. So. So we love to see that.   Sam Wilson (00:22:36) - Absolutely. Tom, this has been enlightening. Thank you for taking the time to come on the show today and share your thoughts. You're kind of updated thoughts here with us on the market, how you guys are handling it, what you guys are doing there in the self storage space. It's a pleasure, of course, to have you come on a second time. You're an absolute wealth of knowledge. I do appreciate it. If our listeners want to get in touch with you and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Tom Dunkel (00:22:59) - Sure, Sam. It's been great. Love the questions. Great energy. Love it. So, yeah. I'm Tom Dunkel. I'm the chief investment officer here at Belrose Storage Group. You can find us at Belrose Storage Group. We also have a Facebook page. If you want to search Belrose storage group on there, you can find my past podcast interviews and other articles and value add that we put out there for our investor community.   Tom Dunkel (00:23:25) - So yeah, I'd love to love to hear from you and I'd love to schedule a call. You can do that from our website as well. But yeah, we, we're active, we're out there doing self storage deals and we're, we're doing syndications with accredited investors. So I'd love to have you come join us.   Sam Wilson (00:23:38) - Fantastic. Belrose Storage group. We'll make sure we include that there in the show notes. Tom, thank you again for your time today. Do appreciate it.   Tom Dunkel (00:23:46) - Thank you, Sam.   Sam Wilson (00:23:47) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is, you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

SEASON 4 EPISODE 138 | Strength-based learning. What is it? How does it work? Why should I care about it for my child? Join Janna on this episode of Homeschool Your Way with guest Sam Young as they discuss strength-based learning. Why Sam created the Young Scholars Academy as an avenue for students a and parents for a connection, chance at community and to fulfill the need they have to be able to create an education that elevates their student because of their strengths rather than focusing on deficits. Hear realistic ways that this could apply to your student and how you can get creative with balancing what they like with what they need. ABOUT OUR GUEST | Sam Young, MEd, is a growth-minded, two-time Fulbright Scholar and Director of Young Scholars Academy, a strength-based, talent-focused virtual enrichment center that supports twice-exceptional, neurodivergent, and gifted students and their families. Mr. Sam is a neurodivergent educator who has ADHD. As an ADHD learner, he has a tremendous understanding of, experience in, and respect for all things related to neurodiverse education. Find out more about Young Scholars Academy @young_scholars_academy LISTENER COUPON CODE ★Request your coupon code to use on any purchase at bookshark.com. QUOTABLES | Sam: So it's the dual existence of these two differences, a strength and a struggle that we call the twice exceptional as twice exceptionalities or the 2e as it's often shortened to. Janna: I would say, personally, I tend to lean towards activities and challenges that I know I'm going to be able to accomplish or do well at so that I don't have to look at those deficits in my own life. Sam: A lot of education is often deficit-based. Sam: So typically, when we talk about supporting homeschoolers and developing the strength-based approach, there's really these three main buckets Janna: I'll speak personally, as a parent, I sometimes get a very fatalistic view of the choices that my children are making Sam: Sir Ken Robinson said this in his famous TED Talk, like our schools are killing creativity. Janna: And I have to remind myself as a homeschool parent, like, I'm doing this so I can be creative. Sam: And again, it's the four elements of the content, the product, the process, and the environment, like what is something that she would care about that would feel important, or in this case, feel authentic? Thanks to show sponsor BookShark. Request a homeschool curriculum catalog or download samples at bookshark.com. If you'd like to share an aha moment, an inspirational quote, a homeschool hack, a book you're loving, or a suggested podcast topic/guest, leave a comment at bookshark.com/podcast. We'd love to feature your reflection on a future episode.

Today's guest is Farhan Abbasi.   Farhan is the Founder, CEO of Nue Holdings, a real estate private equity and management firm offering investors capital-protected capital growth and income in multifamily, single‐family, coliving, and vacation rental real estate. Join Sam and Farhan in today's episode. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lease Types [00:10:08] Future of the Industry [00:06:35] Background and Business Launch [00:01:04] Approaching new markets [00:12:30] Challenges of scaling [00:17:25] Investing in yourself [00:18:41] -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Farhan: Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/farhanabbasi/ Web:  https://staynue.com/ Email: farhan@staynue.com     Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Farhan Abbasi (00:00:00) - And so what we do is we have a three tier system where the revenues, like I said, it's typically over two x what the regular release would be, right? So the revenues first go toward the operating expenses, including the management fee. And then we have some sort of a rent hurdle, which is not a rent guarantee, but it's it's it's it's a next priority after OpEx. And then once that rent hurdle is met, then there's some sort of a profit split. Welcome to the how to scale commercial real estate show.   Sam Wilson (00:00:32) - Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big. Farhan Abbasi is the CEO and founder of Stay News.com. That's stay in. They specialize in vacation rentals. Farhan, welcome to the show.   Farhan Abbasi (00:00:52) - Thank you, Sam. Great to be here. Absolutely.   Sam Wilson (00:00:54) - The pleasure is mine. Farhan, There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Farhan Abbasi (00:01:03) - Yeah, totally.   Farhan Abbasi (00:01:04) - You know, I spent seven years at Ernst and Young as an accounting nerd, left as a manager and serving Fortune 500 asset management firms like State Street, Charles Schwab, hedge funds, etcetera. And in my final year, I actually lived out of a suitcase staying at five star hotels in New York, San Francisco, Kansas City, London. When I left the firm, I lived out of a backpack in youth hostels for a year. So I began to understand the spectrum of hospitality. And believe it or not, the most memorable times were not necessarily the ones in luxury, but in uniqueness of experience. And so that inspired me to launch Stay. Newcomb Stay. And which was my Boston trip at the time with the mission of offering shared experiences and personal choice. So the growth of that business led me to launch my investment arm, new holdings and new holdings where I partner with sponsors as code to offer investors access to multifamily, single family and of course, vacation rentals. We also dabble in early stage ventures using our own capital.   Farhan Abbasi (00:02:03) - But meanwhile, you know, Stay Nu continues to grow. We're entering new markets and we deliver higher income and lower vacancies to owners and developers.   Sam Wilson (00:02:11) - That's really cool. So let me get this right. There's two two sides to stay new. It is one is a management company, so it's where you guys go in third party manage for other short term rental owners. And then there's also you guys buy and operate your own assets.   Farhan Abbasi (00:02:27) - That's right. And on the investment side, it's typically with developers where we help in some way advisory due diligence, raising capital. On the management side, it's asset light and we offer, you know, revenue share agreements, profit share agreements. Sometimes we do master leases, but the whole idea is to offer guaranteed or incremental income to owners and with with developers, it would be to shorten the lease up process.   Sam Wilson (00:02:58) - That what what is the explain that to me, because I'm not sure I completely understand what is the missing what is the missing piece or what is the advantage that developers get by working alongside of you? And I'm going to tag on to that question as well.   Sam Wilson (00:03:13) - I'm assuming this is development specifically for a short term rental.   Farhan Abbasi (00:03:18) - It would be a multifamily asset. Typically it's mixed use. It would generally it would be a residential property. And the idea is, you know, the future of of living is not going to be one type of living. It's going to involve long term leases. It's going to involve short term leases, flexible stays and elements of hospitality and different elements. I'm not saying a hotel condo, but I'm not saying a, you know, a short term rental only building either. But I think the future involves flexibility and choice, and that's what we should all like, look for to strive for. So in other words, you know, imagine a multifamily 200 unit where perhaps ten or 5 or 20 of those units have some sort of flexible stay element where people can book for their relatives. You know, you don't necessarily always want your brother in law or a sister in law to live in your apartment. But you know what? Hey, I'll book one for you just down the hall or whatnot.   Farhan Abbasi (00:04:22) - It's that type of thing. And yeah, I mean, it's you know, I think that essentially answers it kind of delivers an unmet demand think in many neighborhoods around the world, around the country as well.   Sam Wilson (00:04:34) - Absolutely. That'd be really great. You know, I can only imagine how great that would be, especially and I'd imagine there's a certain a certain class of apartment where that would work or multifamily property where that would work, where it's, hey, my brother in law is going to the town or their family's coming to town. Let's rent one of the furnished units. They can take that one for the weekend. Right, Right. So tell me. Yeah.   Farhan Abbasi (00:04:54) - And that was just one use case, right? You have all kinds of other use cases as well. And you do have different, you know, high end, low end type of options, you know as well.   Sam Wilson (00:05:04) - That's very cool how when you when you thought through this kind of idea, you know, I guess living out of a suitcase saying to yourself, okay, people are looking for experience, people are traveling differently, staying differently.   Sam Wilson (00:05:17) - How did you synthesize this into a cohesive business?   Farhan Abbasi (00:05:22) - Right? Yeah. You know, it all it all came down to the value, to the different stakeholders, right? So with the, with, with, with the guests, they want a flexible stay experience. They want cleanliness, they want, you know, kind of a good value. So, you know, depending on the market with with owners, they they are looking for either guaranteed income or incremental income. And so you kind of just kind of put those two needs together and deliver a product that meets those needs. Of course, you know, neighborhoods want some a place that's safe, you know, and and calm and clean. So you kind of have measurements for not having parties and that sort of thing to kind of keep it clean. But yeah, I mean, you know, it's really about finding those unmet needs and putting together a service. And yeah, we have over a decade of experience, you know, doing this where top ten in Boston and we're ready to expand outside as well.   Sam Wilson (00:06:25) - That's really cool. What what would you say the future of your company is like? Where where is this Where is your company and the industry as a whole going?   Farhan Abbasi (00:06:35) - Yeah, totally. So, you know, the the the industry is generally it's growing. First of all, you know, there's a crazy statistic that I read someplace that said 70% of bookings around the world are still done offline. And what I mean by offline is that there, you know, perhaps, you know, they're done by cash or cheque or they show up and they swipe the card, but they're not booked on the website prior to arrival. And what that tells me and by the way, that number is shrinking. It's shrunk a lot in the US, but it's still I still speak to people that only take cash or maybe they get mailed cheques. Believe it or not, they still exist. So, you know, that spells an opportunity for me to like, modernize the industry and and feel like, you know, we're at the forefront of that.   Farhan Abbasi (00:07:30) - What we're looking to do is enter into tier one and two markets across the country and then the world. We have a plan to franchise. We're building that up as well. We want to offer entrepreneurs the opportunity to land and expand in their own markets anywhere in the world and along the way, we we plan to build some some tech that would support all of the different stakeholders that had mentioned. Right, creating a guest care, property care, client care for our property owners and then, you know, spin off potentially to build a service for the vacation rental of managers in the world.   Sam Wilson (00:08:13) - Right. Wow. So you think I mean, not do you think, you know, that there is just still an incredible amount of untapped potential in this in this industry? Oh, yeah.   Farhan Abbasi (00:08:23) - It's growing. And as you know, you know, asset classes around, you know, around the world or I guess in the US especially, you know, multifamily is kind of almost priced to perfection. And there's a lot of shakeup going on right now.   Farhan Abbasi (00:08:36) - But, you know, perhaps there's opportunities in office and retail, but it's it's kind of like a one of those uncertain environments. Vacation rentals, on the other hand, you know, of course, it certainly has its its impact in terms of global recession. And the pandemic was a tough one. But generally speaking, it's for yield chasers, right? If for people who are seeking yield and higher return with some capital protection, a reasonable level of it, it's a really good deal from a risk return perspective. So yeah it's it's think it's it's just compared to all the other asset classes it's think it's just a great one.   Sam Wilson (00:09:21) - Oh absolutely. Absolutely. From a from a yield standpoint it's been in the right, the right places and the right markets. And I think you mentioned that you said tier one and two markets. It's been you know, I've got some some friends in the business and I personally am not in it, but it's we're doing very well. We're doing very well doing. I think that's that's one of the cool, cool parts about it.   Sam Wilson (00:09:42) - Was going to ask you what was it We're losing my train of thought here. I don't know. Let's let's jump to this one. Here's another one I had for you. You had mentioned this early on on your kind of the different types of leases that you guys are.   Farhan Abbasi (00:09:58) - Yes.   Sam Wilson (00:09:59) - Owners. And there was there was a whole bunch of them that you mentioned there. How do you know which one is right for each particular situation? And can you explain? Yeah, man.   Farhan Abbasi (00:10:08) - Yeah, totally. Sam So, you know, leases are higher risk, higher return. They also don't have the best rep in the industry. But, you know, hotels have been doing it for the longest time. They take on master leases. So, you know, there's a term called lease arbitrage, right? You know, we typically look at leases as a almost as a way to enter a market and also opportunistically where if the deal makes sense and the owner is on is not interested in and sharing in that higher return.   Farhan Abbasi (00:10:48) - Right. They just want to fill their their units and get a guaranteed amount that will look at that as a way to, you know, and you know, typically, you know, kind of open kimono right here. You know, a good rule of thumb is if the the revenue is about two X or more of what the lease cost would be. And then, um, so anyway, if you think about that, like, you know, for the owners, we try to generate an incremental income of 10 to 30% or more by sharing them, sharing the profits with them. But again, you know, there's actually a third there's a hybrid. So we talked about a lease guarantee. We talked about a revenue share where they share in that upside. There's a third that we do. It's a bit of a private equity concept that we've incorporated into old world property management, which is waterfall. And so, you know, and you know, as an investor, you know about it. But essentially what.   Farhan Abbasi (00:11:52) - This, this this meets the need for an owner that says, hey, I want some of the upside, but also want some downside protection. And so what we do is we have a three tier system where the revenues, like I said, it's typically over two x what the regular lease would be. Right? So the revenues first go toward the operating expenses, including the management fee. And then we have some sort of a rent hurdle, which is not a rent guarantee, but it's it's it's it's a next priority after OpEx. And then once that rent hurdle is met, then there's some sort of a plot profit split.   Sam Wilson (00:12:30) - That's really, really cool. I haven't heard of people employing that method yet. I think that's. That's a lot of fun. How do you approach when you're going into a new market? Like what's the what are the steps you you are taking to scale your company in a new market?   Farhan Abbasi (00:12:46) - Yeah. You know, it's like said, we're looking at building a franchise system that'll really scale.   Farhan Abbasi (00:12:52) - Think right now we're in the expansion phase where we are looking at we're having conversations with developers that have a need to fill, you know, 100, 200 units. And we can we can probably, you know, reduce their sub timeline in half by taking over a portion of their properties that gives them generates income right away, hits the ground running. We can actually set up a unit in about 2 to 4 weeks time frame, whereas typical developments look at a 1 or 2 year time frame to fill up. So as you can imagine, you know, we can we can take over vacant units like with the snap of a finger almost. So you know that those are the kind of conversations we're having now with with building communities and also, um, also targeting individual owners that have, you know, 1 to 40 unit portfolios that also are looking for vacancy management. But perhaps they're interested in that waterfall that I mentioned where they want some upside. They also want some downside protection. They own single family homes, condos or small multis that are, you know, duplex triplex type of stuff.   Sam Wilson (00:14:15) - So let me just get this right. You go to a developer and you say, Hey, Mr. Developer, you've got a 200 unit property that you're developing. We can cut your lease up time in half. Right. And you do this by taking on how many of those? 200 units. How many of those do you take on and say, Hey, we can turn these into short?   Farhan Abbasi (00:14:34) - Yeah, that's right. The answer to that depends on the developer's appetite and the zoning, you know, in that area. Right. And by the way, this is not all short term rentals where, you know, we're talking medium term rentals one month or more. We're talking co-living units where they're annual leases but split up on a permanent basis. Um, we, we employ all of these strategies to ensure that the property gets its highest and best use and think that resonates with developers. And so when they hear that, they obviously have some questions and from from that conversation we're able to kind of bring it down to how many units make sense.   Farhan Abbasi (00:15:21) - But I would say that it typically part of the overall portfolio of a mixed use asset where first floor is retail. You know, then you have like floors 2 to 5 being long term rentals of which we could take half a floor, for example. It could be a section, it could be sprinkled around. So we're flexible on the way we enter into a building. It's really kind of a partnership, obviously, and we make sure that there's value for all parties.   Sam Wilson (00:15:47) - Got it. That's really, really interesting. How how do you go about locating or finding those developers that you want to work with? I mean, it's got to be a unique probable problem. Imagine a unique conversation and a unique developer that is, you know, willing to have these conversations with you, right?   Farhan Abbasi (00:16:05) - Yeah. So I would say that, you know, I have two advantages. One is I'm part of the Harvard network. And I you know, I did an advanced real estate program there. I made 33 very close friends from my class, all of which who are very well connected to the developer networks around the world.   Farhan Abbasi (00:16:25) - I mean, some of these guys that I'm personally hang out with are building $100 million buildings on a per building basis. And and then and then the second piece is that, you know, we you know, I involve my my new holdings my private equity arm is partnered with with syndicators. And in these type of multifamily syndications, they're not necessarily developments, but they're also syndications that perhaps have a bit of a of a they have a mandate to to to force higher income. Right. And so as a as I form these partnerships, I'm able to involve stay Newcomb as an option for as part of their business plan.   Sam Wilson (00:17:14) - Got it got it. I love that. Let's talk about this. What's one of the biggest challenges maybe you have faced in either scaling your company or that you guys are facing right now? And how do you plan on overcoming it?   Farhan Abbasi (00:17:25) - Yeah, you know, love this question. I would say it's to balance the multiple stakeholders needs, right? So we flex properties to its highest and best use.   Farhan Abbasi (00:17:34) - We have to deliver above market income to our property owner, clients and investors. We also have to provide a flexible experience to our guests and residents and then of course, our neighbors. We join them to make sure that the communities are safe, calm and clean. Um, and then finally, you know, have to offer growth opportunities to our global staff around the world. So it's like walking a tightrope to ensure value for all stakeholders, right? But when done right, the view is great.   Sam Wilson (00:18:05) - That's really, really cool. Yeah, it's funny. Who was it? Somebody came on the show a long time ago and they said. They said it's not. It's not when you scale or when you. When you grow your company, the problems go away. They just change. And so, you know, it sounds like for you, these are it's just the iterations of your company and going, okay, now we've got to take care of everyone involved in this picture. Yeah. And that's maybe something earlier on that you didn't have to deal or handle or even think about at that point.   Sam Wilson (00:18:32) - So that's very, very cool. Thanks for taking the time to share that. If somebody wanted to follow in your footsteps, what would be some of the things that you would tell them to do now?   Farhan Abbasi (00:18:41) - Yeah, totally. You know, so it I remember having two pieces of similar advice like this where one was, uh, one was someone. It was from someone that I admired but didn't like the advice. And then then the opposite is somebody who didn't like and didn't admire. But looking back, man, I love, love the advice. And and so the so, so here we go. The good advice was to invest in yourself. You know, you have 30,000 in savings. Invest in yourself. You have 40 hours a time, invest in yourself. You have a cucumber in the fridge, eat it, and then invest in yourself. You know, launch a business, you know, stay with me. Invest in yourself. Right. Um, but and then the worst advice, by the way, was to, you know, don't take risks in your 20s, be heads down, make moves in your 30s.   Farhan Abbasi (00:19:32) - But, you know, as an entrepreneur, you know, I have to disagree with that advice. Right? So so I would say long winded, Sam. Like my my advice is to don't listen to advice and just fucking do it right and question who you admire and try everything you desire. And if you have the time to make it right.   Sam Wilson (00:19:51) - Got it, man. Absolutely love it. Foreign. This has been absolutely enlightening. I love the way you guys are tackling this. It's a it's a unique, a unique approach, I think, to the space. You know, we've had lots of people come on and talk about short term rentals and they get pretty kind of streamlined into doing just that. But you found a way to scale your management company, to scale the types of assets that you're turning into short term rentals. I think that's that's one of the coolest parts about this conversation is that it's not just the single family home with six bedrooms in the Smoky Mountains. And this is what we do not there's anything wrong with that.   Sam Wilson (00:20:25) - But, you know, you've got a unique product to think that you're bringing to the market and a unique way of tackling some other people's issues. And I think that's one of the things that some people maybe if you're listening to this, like find a way to tackle somebody else's problem. I think you've done that here for the developers and made it a real win win. So that's very, very cool. If our listeners want to get in touch with you or learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Farhan Abbasi (00:20:50) - Yeah, well, you know. Well, first off, appreciate all those thoughts. Man, that was amazing, Sam, to to join our effort. You know, first of all, like, as a property owner or developer, you know. Ah, my email is Farhan FA at Newcomb. And, and, and if you're interested in any, you know, kind of we're looking for salespeople as well. If you're interested in joining our growing global workforce email talent at new holdings and holdings.   Farhan Abbasi (00:21:24) - Com and yeah like you know if you have any questions at all any clarifications to the audience I'd love to be of service You know if you're looking to start your own business keep in touch and look out for us because we're looking to find, you know, deliver ways to help as well.   Sam Wilson (00:21:39) - That's awesome. Farhan, thank you for coming on the show today. I certainly appreciate it.   Farhan Abbasi (00:21:43) - Awesome. Thank you, Sam. Cheers.   Sam Wilson (00:21:46) - Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show. It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

“Block chains are basically an attempt to do a more efficient transaction by replacing trust with proof,” explains Sam Bizri, founder and CEO of Zeconomy. Until recently, transactions were committed via a trust-based bureaucratic system where watchdogs like banks and accountants acted as witnesses, providing a system of checks and balances in case anything fails. A blockchain, instead, is a ledger. It works on proof, using data that is 99.99% incapable of being corrupted, and giving millions of witnesses copies of the transaction, making it easier, cleaner, and able to better solve potential disputes.  The problem, explains Sam, is that people are using the blockchain to make off-chain real-world transactions while still using the trust model, devaluing blockchain's efficiency of proof. Cryptocurrency answers this problem by doing on-chain business, but it has its own set of problems most notably stability, universally accepted legality, and intrinsic value.  It seems blockchain value will increase when everyday people learn to value it, and when the trust system begins to trust blockchains to work the way they're meant to. Sam discusses the many solutions being developed to allow blockchains and cryptocurrency, including blockchain natives, and commercial paper, and what this all looks like in the real world at the consumer level.  Quotes: “The idea is that if we can replace a lot of the trust mechanisms that we use in everyday commerce with proof mechanisms giving absolute proof of the data of transactions as much as we can obtain them, we can make things a lot easier to handle, a lot easier to process. (7:08-7:28 | Sam) “So now, I don't need five or six steps to do something. I can do it in one step. That's the promise of blockchains.” (8:21-8:29 | Sam)  “Block chains are basically an attempt to do a more efficient transaction by replacing trust with proof.” (13:12-13:22 | Sam) “Depending on what your investment is, I think adding speed and efficiency on small transactions makes perfect sense. Adding more proof and immutability and focusing on that on large transactions is a must.” (43:52-44:09 | Sam)  Connect with Brendan Dell: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendandell/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendanDell Instagram: @thebrendandellTikTok: @brendandell39 Buy a copy of Brendan's Book, The 12 Immutable Laws of High-Impact Messaging: https://www.indiebound.org/book/9780578210926    Connect with Sam Bizri and Zeconomy:www.zeconomy.com Check out Sam's recommended learning: Sam very much recommends people read more in the genres of economics, statistics, and current events in geopolitics and the global economy. Start with watching videos by trusted experts on Youtube as a preparation before diving in. Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Billion Dollar Tech on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! Use code Brendan30 for 30% off your annual membership with RiverSide.fm  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

This week we sit down with Jess Cerra and Sam Boardman to discuss the Last Best Ride in Montana. Held in Whitefish, MT in August, Last Best Ride boasts not only an amazing route, but also an amazing community. Episode Sponsor: The Feed Last Best Ride Website Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Last Best Ride [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the podcast. We welcome Jess, Sarah and Sam Boardman onto the show to talk about Montana's last best ride. Many of you will probably recognize justice name as a gravel cyclist, often at the front end of the pack of these gravel races. She's also the founder of Jo J bar and currently as vice president of product and community development at both Joe, Jay and salt stick. She's also a member of the Pinarello Scuderia project. And a long time envy athlete. Sam Boardman, not as well known on the gravel cycling scene, but certainly a crusher out there on the road. He's a member of the powerful Legion squad and riding very well. Having one stage three of the Joe Martin stage race. Recently. The two partners have come together to create last best ride as a showcase for the love of their home in Whitefish, Montana. I hope you enjoy learning more about this event. It certainly sounds from all accounts that it's a great community event. And a spectacular ride. Before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsored the feed. For those of you who aren't familiar with the feed, the feed is the largest online marketplace for your sports nutrition, offering brands, you know, and love from scratch labs to cliff bar, to Martine plus their athlete customized supplements called feed formulas It's those feed formulas that I wanted to talk to you about and make sure you're familiar with feed formulas are personalized supplements for athletes developed in part with Dr. Kevin Sprouse from the EDF pro cycling team. Following the same protocols, the top athletes use. These are best in class, branded supplements, never generic. You get personalized recommendations based on your needs as an athlete. They're all packaged in a convenient daily pouch. So no more messy bottles keeping organized on the counter. You just grab a single pouch and it's got your fully customized order. Right. In one place, you can go on the website@thefeed.com slash the gravel ride and save 50% off your first order today. On that website for feed formula, you can walk through what are the individual supplements that you need. They've got a base formula, then they have multiple different add on packs based on your age, whether you're recovering, whether you're peaking for something. So it's a really great way to make sure you've got all the supplements you need and in an incredible easy way to consume them each day. You're not going to forget anything in a bottle somewhere on the other shelf. Everything's in those. Personalized formula packages in their daily pouch. You can get 50% off your first order, simply visit the feed.com/the gravel ride. Would that business behind us let's jump right in to my interview with just sarah and sam boardman Hey, Jess, Sam, welcome to the show. [00:03:18] Jess and Sam: Hey, Craig. Thanks for having us, Craig. It's good to be here. [00:03:22] Craig Dalton: Where am I speaking to you at right now? [00:03:25] Jess and Sam: We're in a beautiful and snowy, Whitefish, Montana. [00:03:30] Craig Dalton: It's hard to believe. I literally just had a pool party for my son this past weekend in California. And you're still getting snow over there. [00:03:37] Jess and Sam: Yeah, we little bit embarrassing, but Rose Grant is a professional mountain biker who also lives here. And we tried to do a ride on Friday and we had to get rescued and we know what we're doing. We failed the pool parties. [00:03:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, not this time of year anyway, was the listener knows. We always like to start off the show by learning a little bit more about your background and how you came to gravel cycling. And then I'm excited to talk to both of you about last best ride and the big gravel events you've got coming up this summer. So just why don't we start off with you and just talk a little bit about your journey to cycling and how you found yourself riding off road. [00:04:16] Jess and Sam: Yeah. Well, I'm actually from Whitefish, Montana, which is something not a lot of people can say. And I growing up here. You have an affinity for the outdoors? No matter what I think most people who move here and raise families live here because they want to spend time outside. With that said cycling, wasn't a huge part of growing up here. I pretty much found cycling in grad school. I. I went to the university of Montana for my undergrad, studied exercise physiology, and then moved to San Diego to pursue my master's in the same field. And it was when I was studying elite athletes in the lab and actually bringing cyclists into our exercise physiology lab. That my curiosity was peaked and I ended up randomly doing a VO two max test on a lab bike and finding that I had the engine, I just needed a bike and all the things that go with it. So one of my professors was I'm on a mountain bike team and she helped me get started. And I started on that team and I raced Xterra off-road triathlon and mountain bikes for a long time. And then I. Professional road racing career after that. And instead of officially retiring, I say that I evolved into gravel cycling because I think gravel is that area where you, you can be a pro without having to only be competitive, you can bring value to the sport in other ways. [00:05:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, absolutely. So unpacking that, I'll just a tiny bit first off for the uninitiated. Explain exactly where Whitefish is located in, in Montana. [00:06:04] Jess and Sam: So it's up in the Northwestern corner. It's tucked by Flathead lake in glacier national park, which is a big draw to the area. We're about 30 minutes away from glacier. What like nine 90 minutes on the bike. If I'm drafting behind Sam. [00:06:20] Craig Dalton: and then it's pretty close to the Canadian border. Is that right? [00:06:24] Jess and Sam: Yeah. like an hour from the Canadian border. [00:06:27] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Amazing. And when you were growing up, were you doing other endurance athletics, like running or skiing? [00:06:33] Jess and Sam: Yeah. So we, you know, and we'll touch on this. When we talk about the mission for the last best ride I grew up in, you know, a pretty humble family, pretty low income. So access to. A lot of sports like cycling or skiing? It was a little tricky for us. There's a ton of community support here. There's actually grants for kids to participate. So I was able to do some Nordic skiing that way. We have an outdoor figure skating rink, and I did some figure skating with some of those grants. But it's funny because looking back, I was always drawn to endurance. I just didn't have an example of what endurance as a sport or as a career would be like something like professional cycling. And you think that I would, and in Montana that, that I wouldn't have that, but it just really wasn't something that was part of our daily life. You know, my parents were focused on working and I grew up with a single mom, so. That was challenging, but she did her best to get us outside. We did a lot of hiking and exploring here. But Yeah. [00:07:41] Craig Dalton: Amazing. And then, so when you went to college and you discovered the bike for the first time, as you started to become involved in. That the team aspects of road racing, was it immediately apparent that you had an engine that was better suited for the longer, more endurance stuff versus sprint site? Tough. [00:07:58] Jess and Sam: Yes. It's funny how you, you learn that. I actually was a really strong climber and I think that I began goes back to. The VO two max and lung capacity, but definitely I like to suffer for a really long time, rather than compacting that all into five seconds. So those were the systems that I trained. [00:08:22] Craig Dalton: yeah, that makes sense. And then Sam, how about you? Where, where did you grow up and what was your journey to the bike? Like. [00:08:28] Jess and Sam: Well, I'll tell you that, but first I want to add something to justice story that she did not add, which I think is the funniest part, the random aspect of her introduction to cycling. Wasn't so random. It was. Part of the protocol for her research was taking the temperatures of the athletes, who she was studying. And to do that back in the day when she was doing it, the only way to do that was through a rectal thermometer. [00:08:56] Craig Dalton: I thought that's where we're going. [00:08:57] Jess and Sam: So the people who were doing the studies, they were always super jilted because they would always come in according to way adjust all that. And they would say, well, have you done the test? And eventually she just wanted to say like, but yes, I've done the past. And that's how she actually took the test and how she was discovered by her superior supervisors as a very gifted endurance athletes. So people should know it was not so much random. Low grade bullying and yeah, [00:09:27] Craig Dalton: I love it. [00:09:28] Jess and Sam: it's I don't know. I just, I liked that because it's, it's similar to this rumor and legend. I heard about Alex House where as an endurance athlete, everyone who he talked to, who he told I'm a professional cyclist and he would tell them like ever in the tour de France and stuff like that, they'd be like, yeah. Cool, cool, cool. Have you run a marathon? He always was just saying, no, I've never run a marathon. And then apparently, and this is what legend has at one day. You just woke up and was like, gosh, darn it. I just need to run a marathon so that when people ask me that from now on, I can say, yes, we did. And he like broke all his toes or something like that. And just bloody wind speed. But point is, it's an important detail. [00:10:08] Craig Dalton: yeah. Now he's a reasonable athlete, according to the best people out there. [00:10:12] Jess and Sam: yeah. With a rectal thermometer. No, [00:10:17] Craig Dalton: Well, you never know. [00:10:19] Jess and Sam: my my introduction to the bike was a lot less invasive, I guess you could say. It w it was brought on mostly as a way to fill the void that I had in my life when I left running. And I say left running as if it was like something that I chose to retire from it wasn't, it was just my life in high school. And when I, when I discovered it freshman year, I, you know, fell in love with it. And it just was everything that I wanted to do. And when it came time to apply to college, I realized like the only schools that I wanted to go to having come from very small private school and wanting to broaden my horizons, as far as my educational experience goes, were large state schools with very, very competitive running programs where, I mean, they had these kinds of schools were pumping out national champions left and right. And if I wanted to be part of, you know, the, a squad, the division one squad, I would either have. Scrap my way onto the team so that I could just race be races or I would have to run at the club level and doing either of those didn't really fit in my competitive zeal that I accrued during my high school life and running. And I knew that it would also probably destroy the love that I had for the sport, because it would probably just Jade me to the point where I didn't want to do it anymore. So I decided to just try something new, find something. In the meantime, the summer between my senior year of high school and my freshman year of college, which having gone to UCLA who were on the quarter system and they notoriously start very late. I had five months off between when I ended my senior year and when I started college and it wasn't because I took a semester off or anything, it's just, that's how the calendar works. So I had a lot of free time to figure out what I wanted to do. In the meantime, I was working as a janitor in my high school, and my parents had gotten me a fixed gear bike to commute, to work with. And I just fell in love with scooting around in the city. And just finding the bike scene in Washington, DC, where I grew up and discovering the bike and that kind of communal aspect. And then finally come August. Of 2014. I decided I wanted to get a road bike because as is the natural progression for most people that I've talked to in cycling, you wanted to be able to go further and go faster and actually be able to change gears and not blow your knees out of their sockets. So I use the money that I've gotten working as a janitor and bought my first road bike, went to California, found the club team and just became obsessed. Race the club scene for three years when I was in college, until I got onto a domestically amateur team and then started branching out into more competitive national events. And then I signed my first pro contract in 29. [00:13:14] Craig Dalton: Amazing and shout out to rock Creek park in DC for a little road riding. [00:13:20] Jess and Sam: I grew up. Yeah. Rock Creek park. It's I mean, it's funny. It's like I go back there very frequently and I basically rediscover or discover for the first time, in some cases, parts of the cycling scene, which is super exciting to me because having grown up there. You know, you think, oh, I know everything about it, but it's actually really cool to be able to go to your hometown and find something absolutely new to it in the sphere of what you love to do. And that it's actually robbery park is one of my favorite places to ride it's right by my house. [00:13:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah, quick aside. I, I went to school at American university in Washington, DC and discovered mountain biking and amazing. So I discovered a mountain biking in DC, which is very sort of counterintuitive, right? Like where would you find green space to mountain bike in DC? But as you probably know, there's all these sort of interconnected green spaces in Washington, DC, that once you sorta tipped off to them, you sort of do a little section. They're all short of obviously. You're a little section, then you go around next to some apartment buildings you find another section to do, and you can do these neat hour long loops in the city. [00:14:25] Jess and Sam: Oh, my gosh. I mean, I. So much credit I have to give to my high school running coach to who instilled in me the kind of sense of adventure. And you could call it, I call it organic navigation, but most people know that as being bad at directions where it's basically kind of just, you know, where to go when the road looks a certain way, or you kind of just decide, you're going to feel out your route. And he was the one who introduced me to just looping together. Different routes. So, I mean, like you're saying, we would start in Tenleytown, we'd go download the Archibald trail through Georgetown we'd loop through all these little random back trails that kind of nestled themselves in the woods through spring valley and all these areas where it's just, you know, he taught me how to just have fun exploring during your training [00:15:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, absolutely. And another shout out to the CNO canal, many miles on that canal [00:15:21] Jess and Sam: many miles on the CNO canal. [00:15:24] Craig Dalton: So great. So you you've, you're racing professionally on the road. How did you find yourself in Montana? [00:15:30] Jess and Sam: So just being from here ever since we met, had always talked about wanting to go back. I mean, I think she can tell you that she never really clicked with big city living or at least like being in larger urban areas with. It never really bothered me. Having grew up in Washington, DC, moved to LA for college and then moved to San Diego. It was funny where we were living in north county, San Diego Encinitas. That was pretty sleepy beach town in my mind. And just at the time it was living in Oceanside two towns up, which again, very small town in my mind, but there's still towns of 150, 200,000 people. And it's all part of one big conglomerate to call it, you know, its own town. It's kind of ridiculous because similar to LA it's just, you know, San Diego county LA become just massive giant cities with little pockets of populations here and there. But eventually when it came time for us to leave where we were living in Encinitas, she decided she wanted to move back to wipe this. And she said, if you want to be with me, I'm going to be up there. So ball's in your court. So the decision was pretty easy. So now I'm here. But Yeah. honestly, I've, I think I've taken to it pretty amazingly. I mean, I love the writing that we have up here. I love the community that's up here and it's just a very welcoming place that. Just champions, outdoor living in every form that you can imagine. And I think what was really important to me as someone whose life has revolved around road racing for the past seven years, it was I think, a big step for me to try and find a place that I could visualize myself living, where I could have fun where the road bike wasn't the apps. Epicenter of my existence. And you know, this past winter, I learned how to ski for the first time and my knees are still intact. So that was sweet. And I learned that I loved it. And that really gave me a lot of, I mean, hope is a weird word to use, but it did where it's like, you know, there's this kind of panic that sets in sometimes when you think about, oh my gosh, what am I going to do when I leave competitive road cycling? I mean, there's just so much to try out here. There's so much to do and so much stuff to have fun with that. You know, I'm really glad that I was brought up here because now having lived here for a couple months now, it's just, it's hard to imagine being back in a big city, it really is, which is very odd. I always thought I wanted to stay in a big city. [00:18:13] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting. And for listeners who live in California, California, is this weird place, right? You can ride your bike all year round, very little interruption. In fact, it's hard to take a step back and think about having a quote unquote off season. Whereas most places elsewhere in the country, in the world, you have snow, you have real winter and you're forced to do other things. And I remember growing up on the east coast for me, that was sort of a healthy. Sort of cycle of the year, right? Because you just sort of naturally transitioned to something else, whatever it was in the winter, rather than just riding your bike hard core all year round. [00:18:50] Jess and Sam: oh yeah. I was pretty nervous even. Yeah. Being the one that pushed us to move here and what our long rides every weekend are so important to me. And to your point, I feel healthier. I feel it is so nice to just take a break from those things, because now I'm looking forward to riding more than usual, but it also is weird to not be so fit and may [00:19:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, [00:19:16] Jess and Sam: I'm used to being so, so come may. Not [00:19:21] Craig Dalton: not quite there yet this year. [00:19:23] Jess and Sam: quite there yet. It's also like your life has changed too. Yeah. And my life revolves more around work. I mean, so the thing that I discovered is. To justice credit. Like she's just, she's training differently now because she's working multiple jobs, basically with organizing the race and her own full-time job and balancing training competing. But to her credit, if she wanted to be fit and trained, she could. And that's just the thing about being in an environment that's not California, which is perfect weather all the time. He kind of just ended up getting creative. Like you, you know, during the winter, Jess was doing a bunch of. Yoga yoga sculpt doing some like gym workouts at home. She was doing endurance hit workouts at home. Yeah. You did a ski race. I mean, it's just, I honestly think that it, you know, for me and I re I reckon for justice as well. It actually was very refreshing to be in an environment where bike racing and bike riding. Wasn't the only way that you could get fit. And it actually felt good. Going into the season, having not just written my bike and myself into oblivion, because it actually got me excited for the season, whereas an excited to ride my bike more like justice thing. Whereas I found in, you know, past years, sometimes you get to the end of your base training phase, which for most Californians, I mean their base training starts in October, November, and it goes all the way until January, February, where racing starts pretty early relative to. Season or re rest of the country. And by the time you get to that first race of the season, you're just like, oh my God, I can't stand training anymore. I need to race. I need a race. Whereas this year, I mean, I took some time off and then learned how to ski. And that was like the first couple of weeks of off season activities was just learning how to do the activity and then doing those activities and actually staying fit in a relatively, you know, fun way that was new. And then by the time I got. To the point where I was supposed to raise, I was actually really excited to just like be on my bike, not just race, but like be outside in the warm weather where my knees can be exposed to the elements. [00:21:36] Craig Dalton: Being part of the Legion program. Did you find yourself, had you hit the fitness you needed to hit for some of the late the races they had you slated to. [00:21:43] Jess and Sam: I think it was in, I would say probably not the fitness that I would have wanted, but again, it was. I don't think I was actually unfit for the races. I just don't think I was fit in the way that a lot of the people who I was racing and surfing and in the sense of like racing fitness, because a lot of the riders coming from warmer climates who are doing those early season races, that the program that Legion does in California, they've been racing since January. And I literally just flown from a blizzard. And we'd seen a lot of snow during the winter. And I was mostly doing like base training work starting in December, going through February to one of my first race in Arizona was, and it's not that I felt, felt unfit to the point where I couldn't finish the races. It's just like That top end wasn't there. But now, you know, having had a bunch of races under my belt and we're going into the next block, which is like the key block, the target block of the year from. I do feel a lot fitter and I don't feel the same level of burnt out as I would normally at this time of the year where I'm just like praying hands and knees for break after the blast block. So I actually, I did feel less fit, but, you know, I felt like I was excited to raise again. [00:23:03] Craig Dalton: That makes sense. And then just for you racing gravel this year, you're part of a program. Do you want to talk about that team you're involved in and what your goals are for the year? [00:23:15] Jess and Sam: Yeah. So the scooter Rhea Pinarello program is sort of a multi-faceted program that emphasizes what I was mentioning earlier that there's unique skillsets and unique people. They deserve to have an opportunity in the cycling world. And so. The idea of our marketing director of Pinarello is Kim Rogers. And she's just an incredibly hard worker. I have a lot of respect for what she's accomplished with the program in the first year, and then leading into this year. But we're a group of athletes that range from competitors to adventure, people, to community leaders. So my role is a community leader. And basically what that means is I'm none of my partners and of my sponsors expect me to be winning races are on the podium. And that's something that I've communicated to everyone and they they've accepted, you know, I've had my time for that. Being a trained really hard and, and won races and had the injuries and then the whole deal. And now it's what I really want to focus on is helping more people get into the sport, making it a welcoming place where you know, all types of people are accepted and have opportunities and just being able to. Represent amazing brands like Pinarello at large events is, is super important. And it's like, because I don't care about a result, I'm going out there to have fun. And the pressure isn't there, you open yourself up to creating those experiences with people. Like I'm constantly on my feet in the sun before I do an event and talking and hanging out and. My, the energy bar company that I founded, Joe Davis. Is now a part of a larger suite of sports, nutrition brands, and my company kind of mirrors. We go to the events that mere my schedule with Pinarello and support. So I'm also doing that on the side. And it's just, it's super fun to. To know that we're in a place now where the emphasis isn't always on results. I mean, that's amazing. It's super cool. I still look up to the women who are crushing it right now. And I think that is great, but it's also really more relatable to a lot of people who have families and work and see like they do, they do have a place and you don't have to come to an event to. You can come to just ride your bike and meet people and you'll be accepted and you're not doing anything weird. You're probably doing what 95% of the other people around you are doing. So Yeah. it's, it's, it's a good, it's a good, a good team for me, for sure. [00:26:12] Craig Dalton: Awesome. Let's take a two minute detour and hear about your company. What can you tell us about like the judge, a bar philosophy and the types of products that you make? [00:26:21] Jess and Sam: Yeah. So this is also a concept that after grad school, I decided not to do a PhD, which was the track that I was on. Like from high school, I knew I wanted to do this path and I was really into research and I diverted to pursue cycling and I. I had met a nutritionist who I worked with and she was a private chef. And so I started helping her kind of as her assistant at first. And then I ended up taking over her clientele when she moved away. So that's kind of the piece about nutrition and being in the food world, but is important to the story. So I had this background in exercise physiology. I S I started this private chef company. I started catering events and I really focused on just fresh food healthy food that people who wanted to be active, wanting to eat. And I just took the guesswork out of it. So, at the time, this wasn't in 2008. 10 ish. There was really no good energy bars out there. We weren't in this food revolution where there's like all of this amazing all these amazing choices when you walk into whole foods or whatever. And so I thought I wanted to create something that was delicious, but tastes in homemade. My favorite things to eat are. Cookies or baked goods or stopping by the bakery before I ride. I also wanted it to make sense from a macronutrient standpoint. And so I kind of flip the script on how bars were made. They were always really carb-heavy before which we need, but I also wanted to add in more fat for. Those zones that are more endurance and I wanted it to be something that was digestible and you could eat, eat a lot of it. At the time I had a coach who had Lyme's disease and was on a gluten-free diet. And so I thought, well, I'll try making it gluten-free little. Did I know that that segment was going to blow up in the future and become so. So I created this bar and it was just kind of a rinky-dink operation out of my kitchen at first. And I actually, some of my private chef clients helped me move into my first co-packer and I was in a small co-packer down in San Diego and just grew the brand grassroots style within the cycling and trapline community. And a big, the big wind for Joe Jay was when we got into REI. And I think we were accepted at the end of 2018, and that really helped our, the brand breech our people in the outdoor space and in let's see. I think of October of 2019, I was approached by this company called elite active nutrition is the name now a L E T E, which means all athletes, not elite athletes. And they reached out to me. They had started this platform by acquiring electrolyte brand called salt stick. Really huge in the triathlon world. I'm hopefully helping it become huge in the travel world. So they reached out to me about acquiring Joe, Jay, and it was a great fit because it allowed me at this point, I was caught up in all of the logistics of running a business. And also the logistics of being the hamster in the wheel of cashflow when you own a small business. And this allowed me to step away from that. And I'll admit, I don't love entrepreneurship from that standpoint. I just am wired in a way where I want to help other people and I want to do the right thing. And I want a brand that does those things. And I really don't like the other part of it. This company enabled me to do that. They said, we're going to take all of that. We have a team in place already, and then you can create your role in the company and you will come on and you will do that role. And so it was a perfect fit. They didn't want to take the bar and change it and, you know, cut the margins and do, do all the things that sometimes larger companies want to do. So I created my role of VP, of product and community developers. Enjoying this team, we've now also acquired bonk breaker and we'll be acquiring two other brands. And yeah, so that's what I do. I work on product development. We're developing some new flavors right now. And then I also, like I mentioned, I get to be out in the community and we, I get to lead all of our brands and make sure that we. Have at our heart and soul, we are an accepting platform. We have a diverse group of athletes and ambassadors. We're inclusive. We're thinking about doing the right things for the environment in sport and all of those, you know, amazing things that I like to focus on. So, sorry, that was not two minutes. That was like five. [00:31:32] Craig Dalton: That's okay. Now I appreciate the entrepreneurial journey and that's a great outcome and amazing that the vision can now be propelled forward, you know, with the distribution that maybe you weren't going to be able to achieve this company can get it out there even further and allow you to focus on what you love. [00:31:49] Jess and Sam: Exactly. [00:31:50] Craig Dalton: fabulous and allow you more time to start things like gravel races in your hometown. [00:31:55] Jess and Sam: Yes. [00:31:56] Craig Dalton: So let's talk about that. I mean, I love talking to event organizers because I think it's such a, such an art behind creating an experience that is native to the community that you're in and showcases everything you want to showcase. I feel like it's like a love letter to your commute. When you design a gravel course, and I love designing courses here in Moran. So I'd love to hear about the inspiration for last best ride. And then let's talk about the details. Let's get the listener stoke to put it on their calendar. [00:32:25] Jess and Sam: Okay. Well, I think to back up a little bit, when we first started spending a lot of time here was in 2020 during the Panda. When we realized we weren't going to be doing any racing. And we kind of did the thing that everyone was doing. We scattered to a smaller place only. This is my home. And we also bought a piece of land at that time, which turned out to be total baller, move that we had no idea. This is going to be like the best decision of our lives, but I think. We, so to Sam's point about being adventurous, he started exploring and making these gravel routes for us, these crazy off-road routes. And he didn't even have a gravel bike yet, but he was taking me places that I had never been after growing up here. And remember the first gravel. Right. We did. You did it on your road bike, that old KTM bike and yeah. We ride this route consistently now. And we're like, how on earth did you write this on your road bike? Like we it's like when you don't know any better, when you first start exploring off road, like you might throw some wider tires on your road bike. And you're like, oh yeah, like, so we were kind of exploring and realizing that this place is prime for a gravel event. I had also. My first event, the season before was our friend, Kevin Laura King run an event in Vermont called rooted Vermont, and the little town there from Richmond reminded me of Montana and attending that. Having such an amazing time. And knowing that gravel was a place that I wanted to be, I thought that they're just nailing it. Like how that the community embraces this event. It's super low key. They make a whole weekend out of it. And I told Laura, I said, my wife is really needs an event like that. It's so incredibly beautiful here. So. I think we started exploring more and then I can pretty sure I made you ride like an old steel, gravel bike of mine. Remember that? And it was like two sizes too small for you. And then he ordered a gravel bike and we just like, I don't know how we went from. Two rides to like the next day we were at the forest service office with our masks on like knocking on the door where it's like appointments only. And we were like, hi, we would like to put on an event. They were like, why we're in the middle of a pandemic? Why would you, when you talking about, and we're like, no, it's definitely the, the pandemic won't be here next year. Like we're looking at next year. Little did we know that it was going to be an extended, extended pandemic, but luckily we picked August as our month because you're pretty much guaranteed. My dad will tell anyone that comes here, that he's seen snow here every month of the year. But if you're going to pick one month, August is a pretty safe bet. So we picked August for our race and that's Yeah. that's kind of how we started. [00:35:30] Craig Dalton: and was the community embracing of it. Like I know a lot of rural communities when they hear about the prospect of a thousand athletes coming to town and booking hotel rooms and accommodations and food and all that stuff. They're super excited to get behind it. Were you experiencing that in Whitefish? [00:35:48] Jess and Sam: Well, there's been a little bit of a shift here and Whitefish? I believe this was the fastest growing town in the country during COVID. Which is why, when I mentioned us buying this little plot of land we didn't know that was going to happen. I had a, I had a theory. I was kind of actually obsessed about real estate at the time. I had a theory that something was going to happen because I remember what happened during the last recession. And. So to your question, it's a little different here. It there's a lot of people that come here in the summer in glacier park has gotten so overrun that they now actually have a ticketed entry system. So it was sort of a balance of knowing that we already have a lot of tourism and this isn't a town that needs that tourism boost to survive. So we wanted to make sure that this event was going to be a net positive for the community and that our community was going to feel supported. And that, again, that it's a positive. And so that's one of the reasons why we wanted it to focus around our scholarship. [00:36:56] Craig Dalton: And do you want to describe what that scholarship looks like? [00:36:59] Jess and Sam: Yeah. So, as I had mentioned before, growing up here fairly low income I did not have a college fund growing up and I had a guidance counselor in high school. My sophomore year that came to our classroom talking about college. And when I found out that it costs money to go to college, I had a little meltdown. My dad actually took me to her office and we spent three years together working on scholarship applications and I won. So many local scholarships along with Pell grant and federal aid, but I didn't have any student loans for undergrad and she just had this profound impact on my life. Mostly just because she believed in me and she didn't hold my hand by any means, like she made me do the work, but I've always had this dream of creating a scholarship and. Giving that back to the community and finding young women who deserve to be uplifted and supported financially. So we figured this rate. Was a good way to accomplish that goal. We both have our careers. We felt like it'd be a perfect way to invest back into the young people and the community. And I full heartedly believe that one of the best ways to get young people into cycling is to equip them with the ability to go out and. Either learn a trade or get an education and become, you know, get themselves into a place where financially they can afford a bike and they can enjoy that and incorporate into their life. And they're empowered to do that. So it kind of like. What does the bike race have to deal with the scholarship, but it, as Sam put it, he wrote in the tech guy, like simply by attending this race, you are bettering the lives of young women in our area who are, you know, have financial need, but also have academic merit. So. [00:39:08] Craig Dalton: Yeah, what's interesting as well is I think just the sh. Participation levels in the community, people who aren't cyclists are going to notice that it's happening and they're going to see and hear that, oh, a scholarship comes out of that. So maybe it even helps some of these younger women become aware that scholarships are available and that a path towards a higher education as possible with these, you know, following the same path that you did. [00:39:31] Jess and Sam: That's so interesting that you just brought that up because I learned fairly recently that one of our recipients from last year, her friend read about the scholarship and. Her friend did not have financial need, but she, she drugged this young woman down to the counselor's office and said, you have to apply for this. And she didn't think that she even deserved or knew that she can have that opportunity. And then she ended up being our top recipient. So we were really good point. And that it's like something that I, I want these young women to know that like, you. You deserve a chance and like at least apply for it this year. We have five recipients. So, and I'm about to go to the scholarship nights at the schools and the next couple of weeks, and actually give the awards out. But we also have seven land permits. So it's pretty, it's an arduous task with the land permits. And I know that. you know, the people who are at the head of these entities, it does mean something to them that, you know, it's not just a bike race. It's for-profit [00:40:44] Craig Dalton: let's talk about the courses. It sounds like you're going through a lot of different types of properties. So what's the gravel of riding like in Whitefish. [00:40:51] Jess and Sam: Awesome. I would say it varies from. You know, depending on where you are in the valley, where we live, it can vary from champagne, gravel to straight up single track the way that we like to ride, but the courses themselves traverse through a, I would say pretty wide variety of surfaces. So. Both routes. We'll take a route that heads east out of town. And you will go up through some logging roads that are owned by a local lumber and logging company that who are wonderful. They're wonderfully supportive of the event. And that will then transition you into forest lands, which is where most of I would argue what 90% of our race takes place on 80 to 90% of our race. And once again, the forest service are wonderfully supportive of the event as well. And we appreciate everything that they've done to help us. They were actually the ones who were. One of the most ardent supporters in the beginning when we were trying to design routes that were cool and they were the ones encouraging us saying, this is exactly what we love public lands to be used for. Is this kind of recreation that is based in exploration and, you know, cyclo eco-friendly tourism. So then we'll try the routes then traverse through forest lands that. Pretty much wind your way through a bunch of the mountain roads up north of town. So Northeast of town, they will then bring the riders back to a dividing point where there will be an aid station where the short route will then take some more of those forest service road. Through some single track trails onto mountain property. So we have a local ski resort, big mountain ski resort that has also helped us immensely in providing sections of their property for our route. And that will basically direct riders up to a section of the mountain road where they can then explore some of the single track there and then head back down. Into town, the long route diverts back to where close to where we started. And then they start heading up north along what is called lake shore drive, which is a beautiful picture of. Road exactly, as it says, which borders the east side of a Whitefish lake, and you make your way north along this road, and it will pretty much on align, transition to gravel, depending on the time of year, it can be either champagne, gravel. It can be kind of rutted if it's rained or it can be straight up washboard. So you get, you don't know what you're going to get. Typically. It's fairly dry. And it seemed a lot of traffic because that is nearing the end of huckleberry picking season. So a lot of locals will go out that road to some of the secret huckleberries spots that I don't even know where they are. Cause they're so secret. But so it can typically be a little washboard, but that we'll head north all the way to a road called Warner peak. There is some. Road name and technically most of the roads around here are called forest road or forest service road, big old number. And I should know this because I designed the route, but I get confused and all the digits, but it's commonly in locally known as water peak. So you bank, you take a right and you start climbing it's about a six mile climb from the turnoff of what is upper Whitefish lake. To the top of Warner peak, and that basically deposits you onto this Ridge line that overlooks the entirety of the valley. it. truly is on a clear day, a stunning picture SVU and that surface transitions from the kind of predictable, typical valley country champagne S gravel road to pretty Rocky technical climbing. And the gradients aren't, hellaciously steep in that section, but they are steep enough where you're going to be going slow and you're going to be needing to have some technical savvy to be able to navigate around some of the bigger rocks and sections. And there are also some drainage pipes that are late. The road to help ease snow melt washing away some of the roads. So if you can practice a little like bunny hopping or lifting your front wheel and back wheel whilst climbing it's summarized. It's one of the hardest climbs. I think you'll find in a gravel race, the hardest climb you'll find in a gravel race comes shortly thereafter. You descend down the Ridge line that takes you to the backside of the be of big mountain ski resort. Now the course then takes riders to the top of big mountain, the absolute peak where the summit house is. And this is where the ski resort basically has all their chairs going to the very top to get to that. You go up what we have called the. The mountain goats scramble this big horn sheep, big horn sheep scramble. And basically we discovered this ride on, or this way up on a ride that we did early in 2020 when we were kind of just moseying our way to the backside. And we found ourselves kind of running along the Ridge line of all of the ski slopes. And we're kind of looking up and seeing all the ski runs and we finally made our way to a service. And we said, Ooh, let's turn up. That, how high can we go? And apparently you can go the highest you physically can, but to do so you have to go up. What is essentially a wall of roughly 35% average gradient for 300 meters, the longest 300 meters of your life. [00:46:40] Craig Dalton: It is an actually rideable. [00:46:42] Jess and Sam: So there are two people that we know who have written it on a bike. One of which is me. The other is one Caleb Swartz, who is a Marian university alum who wrote for the bear dev team. And recently completed. Really Stellar's a cyclocross campaign is a private two rider who lives in Missoula. He trains a lot with Howard rots and some of the local Missoula hitters. He rode his XC bike at the race and he was the only person in the race to ride up the entire scramble without take unclipping, walking his bike. [00:47:18] Craig Dalton: All right. There's a big challenge for you people out there. [00:47:20] Jess and Sam: Yeah. So you get to the summit house, there's a feed station. Then you descend down another climb. It's called Taylor Creek, which takes you back to upper Whitefish lake road. And you go back the way you came out back into town. [00:47:35] Craig Dalton: right on. So tell me the distances of the short course in the long course. [00:47:39] Jess and Sam: So the short course. is 47 miles with about. 4,500 feet of climbing in the long course is 90 miles with that 8,200 feet of climbing. We might have to make a couple tweaks. We know we have to make a couple tweaks. So the short course this year, because of some logging that's happened, but it will be. Similar within that range. So it's a good, it's a, it's a good distance. Like the pro the pro dudes last year, Ted and Howard, and a local guy named Andrew, Andrew, Frank, they, we could not believe this. They finished. And just under five hours, we, we were expecting like a five 15, but I would say on average the short course would take you. Around three and a half to four and a half hours in the long course would be close to. I don't know, six, six to seven hours if you're relatively cruising, but it can be a huge range because it's just such a, a hard course. So the benefit of the the three finishers we've mentioned in there super fast time, the road Taylor Creek, the descent that you take back down into town had just been basically flattened by logging equipment. So it wasn't really the gravel that Jess and I had previewed throughout the summer, but it actually was so packed down because of all, it was basically concrete is what it was. And I remember I previewed it actually with Ted on Thursday, before. And we were descending it. And we were looking at each other and saying like, people are going to rip this. Cause I mean, you didn't even have to worry about dodging any kind of rocks or ruts or anything. It literally was just smooth pavement made out of mud that had been flat. And it rained also, which well, we, we say our race is predicated on the views because. I don't think that as Sam went through this course, like you cannot describe these views. They are jaw dropping. When we ride here, we're riding in all the time and it never looks the same. It's just so amazing. But then it poured rain, which cleared out all of the wildfires. So that was the benefit and it was very foggy in the morning of the race and people still that it was like a, just like I said, a different kind of view, but that we, I was like calling the medical volunteers. Like we need to put someone, we need like two people going on that descent, like to medical stations, because I was so afraid that someone was going to be doing like 60 miles an hour down this gravel descent and just fly off into space, but it turned out. We had, I think one of the most advanced medical plans, the forest service actually asked us if they could keep the template of it to use as an example. And we treated a bee sting and that was it. So the other side, Yeah. When you become an event director, you're pretty much just stressed out the whole time about someone getting hurt or something going wrong. [00:50:49] Craig Dalton: a hundred percent. So it sounds like with a fairly rowdy course, you need some pretty capable tires. Is there a size that you recommend? [00:50:57] Jess and Sam: I mean, I am of the camp of you should run as, as big as you can. It's a, it's a big debate for us on our course, because we know again, given the conditions of really the back sections of the course and the climb, like. I think the debate is now whether a hard tail mountain bike is the fastest bike for our course, but there, there are a lot of sections where having a pretty rigid snappy gravel. Where you can just easily put out power very consistently would help, but tire wise, as wide as you can run. I mean, I think, and less than the 36, you will not be caught. You will not have a fun 30, 36 is the minimum that you can do to, I would say like complete the ride. You will not be comfortable. You won't necessarily be happy, but you'll be able to get through. I ride the rose and cert courses around here on my crux, my specialized crux, which is a 2019 model that clears the 38. And I'm pretty comfortable on that bike. I don't ever feel really that I'm under biked. And I went, it's fairly dry and I'm not worried about getting mud in my stays. I will, I can clear a 42 on that bike. And I would say if I could run that consistently without worry of, you know, starting to take pain off, I'd run a 42 easily. I would say that's probably most traveled bikes. We'll clear 42 minimum. But that's, that's the. [00:52:34] Craig Dalton: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I mean, I think that's one of the interesting thing about taking a survey of all the gravel events out there. It's interesting seeing what people recommend, and I'm always frankly, more attracted to the races that are saying, bring your big tires. You're not going to regret it because it means they're getting creative with course design and really pushing the limits and capabilities of both the athletes and the bikes. So to onto some just not simple. What are the event dates and where can people find out more information about the event and are there still slots available this year? [00:53:07] Jess and Sam: So our date is Sunday, August 21st, and we have a welcome happy hour and scholarship fundraising evening on Friday, August 19th, that packet pickup and some liberal community rides are Saturday, August 20. Our website is the last best ride empty as in montana.com. We have been sold out for some time. We do have a wait list. It's pretty big. So if you got on the wait list now, unfortunately, You're probably planning for 2023, which is actually good because I don't even know if you could find a hotel room or an Airbnb at this point and Whitefish. It's why we send out early communication. Like before Christmas, the year before letting people know, like here's our links to our favorite camping and hotels, and like, here's how to make your life easier to plan to come to this little area. I just want to say as an aside, because we do talk up this course as being. Hard. It was also very important to us, but it is something that you could do if you're trying your first event. And our short course is manageable for anyone trying your first event. And we even have different start waves for the event for people who have different goals. If you want to hang out and meet friends, if you wanna, you know, ride a little more steady or if you really want to. You know, go full gas. Just the introduce that like, you don't have to start in the front and like elbows. So I really want to emphasize that our long course, definitely fitness would be the biggest challenge if you're newer to gravel. But it is inclusive. [00:54:53] Craig Dalton: And then finally, what's the finish line experience? Like what have you designed there? [00:54:59] Jess and Sam: Well, that was really, that was really important to us. And again, we wanted to focus on like our local vendors. And so we have above average race food. We have a local chef named Tim. Good. He has a catering truck. He owns a restaurant here and he has a catering truck called the cuisine machine. So last year you would find Mac and cheese. You'd find corn bread, chicken Marsala pork chops with huckleberry barbecue sauce, watermelon salad. And then we had our local ice cream company out and we had huckleberry ice cream, which is specialty to Montana. We had one, they made one forest called gravel road. And then we had beer vendor, wine vendor, and a local kombucha vendor, and all participants receive two drink coupons so they could use it however they wanted. Yeah. What else? Oh, and we offer bear spray. We never even touched, touched. The wildlife area, but yeah, we also sell bear spray and highly, highly recommend that you ride with it and know how to use it. [00:56:05] Craig Dalton: Well, we'll let people do their own research. As they're thinking about 2023 for this, I love getting these types of events out on people's radar. We realize that they're not unlimited capacity, so you've gotta be able to plan ahead. And I, for one really loved traveling to new areas and experiencing gravel around the country. It just reminds you of what a special place the United States can be and how much amazing outdoor activities is right there on our own country. [00:56:30] Jess and Sam: We would love to have you up here. I mean, if You can come this year, we we'll we know the person [00:56:36] Craig Dalton: one special slot. Nice. [00:56:38] Jess and Sam: special slot for you, but if 2023 works better, we'd love to have you up here. And yeah. [00:56:44] Craig Dalton: Thank you for that. And I appreciate both of your time. It's great to get to know you. And, and again, I hope everybody checks out last, last, best ride. I'll put link in the show notes and we'll make sure everybody knows how to find you guys. [00:56:56] Jess and Sam: Thank you so much. Hope to see everyone. [00:56:59] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Sam. And just for joining us. I love the sounds of what they've created out there in Montana, and certainly hope to visit it someday and myself. I'll be sure to put appropriate links in the show notes. If you need any more information about last best ride. Huge. Thanks to our sponsor. The feed. Remember you can get 50% off the feed formula. Just visit the feed.com/the gravel ride. If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. Just visit www.theridership.com. It's a free global cycling community based in the slack channel. You can visit us and communicate with other gravel cyclists all around the world. If we're able to support the podcast, please visit buy me a coffee.com/ Solo ride. Additionally ratings and reviews are hugely helpful in my discoverability and my goal of connecting with as many gravel cyclists as possible. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels  

Sam Zimmerman is CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sagewell is building a banking platform for the needs of folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and income as intelligently and as well as possible. Chad talks with Sam about deciding what their first product should be and what they would be bringing to market, finding the right partners, and minimizing risk to make a business and a product that works. Sagewell Financial (https://www.sagewellfinancial.com/) Follow Sam on Twitter (https://twitter.com/Ferrum_of_omega) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-zimmerman-35152a22/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Sam Zimmerman, CEO and Co-founder of Sagewell Financial. Sam, thanks for joining me. SAM: Thanks so much for having me, Chad. CHAD: I've been following along with Sagewell Financial for a little while now, given our cross-histories and the fact that we worked with a few companies that you've worked at in the past. So I'm aware of what Sagewell Financial is, but I'm not sure that all of our audience is. So I think a good place to start would be by giving folks a little bit of an intro into what Sagewell Financial is, and then we'll touch on the founding story and go from there. SAM: Awesome. So, in a sentence, Sagewell is building the digital banking that our parents deserve. To expand on that even more, America's retirees are a really interesting and important and powerful demo in American culture at large. There are 56 million Americans on a fixed income. And last year in venture capital, nearly $100 billion went to fund financial technology companies rewriting all of finance. And of that 100 billion or a little under, less than a fraction of a percent went to America's seniors. And so we are trying to build banking from the ground up for the needs of folks who are living on a fixed income who are in their golden years and aren't thinking about that new job or making new money. We're building a bank for folks who are trying to retire and live off their savings and their income as intelligently and as well as possible. And that looks really different than the bank that a millennial or a Gen Z user might have. CHAD: So that's really interesting. Right or wrong, what are the reasons that this historically hasn't been a target demographic for investment? SAM: So the prevailing assumption among venture capitalists was (We're changing that and hopefully changing that quite quickly.) was that retirees aren't open to changing. Beyond that, they're also not technically sophisticated. These folks don't know how to use a phone or aren't open to a bank that might not have any physical branch. They are set in their ways. They're not going to move branch, or they're barely going to watch a new TV show. A lot of folks who are trying to talk...imagining a grandma or a grandpa was really what the venture capitalists are drawing on often when they're thinking about why a senior wouldn't expect to have a bank with all the new features that the millennial might. CHAD: Well, that one is certainly changing, especially as the venture capitalists get older themselves. They probably realize that that's an outdated notion in terms of the technical aptitude or familiarity of that audience, right? SAM: Exactly. And it's a fascinating moment. There are 10,000 boomers who turn 65 each day in America, about 4 million folks each year. And those folks were about 40 whenever the.com boom passed. They've been using email. They have XE and PayPal. And importantly, why we're building this company now is that COVID changed seniors' digital lives more than anyone else. ARP reports how 70% of all American retirees know how to use Zoom and video conferencing software nowadays. Across the stack of digital goods and services, seniors were actually the group that was most moved online. And so, from where we sit as entrepreneurs, we saw a massive market, an exogenous effect creating a disproportionate opportunity. And so we began designing and iterating on and understanding our user to build a product that met those needs with this massive and growing market. CHAD: Banking is a highly regulated complex space. And I imagine from day one you're looking at that and saying, "Well, we might want to do everything eventually, but doing everything is going to be difficult." So what was the process you and your co-founder and the team around you used to decide what the first product should be and what you were going to bring to market? SAM: Our founding team spent almost nine months in user interviews and user research across what one director of finance at Capital One called geriatric finance. We talked to hundreds of folks, and a lot of our assumptions about what the simplest or most low-trust or quickest to use service might be were actually totally turned on their head in a really interesting way. Another reason why venture capitalists aren't so confident you can reach this demo is a couple of companies have come before us, and a lot of them followed, in financial technology, a Mint-like model where you log in, and you share your various bank credentials. They pull your credit card transactions and bank transactions. And one of the really surprising things in our hours of user interviews was that that model was really unpalatable to this demo. They actually thought it was a lot higher trust to share bank credentials than it was to actually open an account. And so we began thinking, what's the highest engagement, most common accessible feature that our demo is familiar with? And that's already broadly online. And let's start there. And the original insight came with a woman she was from Pennsylvania, and we were talking. We built this kind of mint.com-type prototype to try to help imagine banking for her needs without this high trust checking account. And she was like, "Oh." She was aghast that we were even considering asking for her bank credentials. We heard that, and then we said, "All right, no worries, no need to do this product demo." And then she was like, "But I really love Chime, and I really love Chime's checking account." And we were like, "Wait, you have a digital bank account?" And she's like, "Yeah, I love Chime." And it was this moment where thinking about our user, what trust meant to them, what was familiar to them, and what being online meant to them opened the floodgates and helped us really understand this user and what that first product needed to be. And so our initial product is a checking account. It's got a variety of senior-specific features around and enabling it. And it's built incredibly excessively to be available to folks who use technology in all sorts of ways. But we started with the basics because that's what our members are most familiar to and most expect. CHAD: So you say in the fine print on the website that Sagewell is a financial technology company and not a bank, and your banking services are provided by a partner. What was involved in actually bringing that online, finding the right partner, implementing the features? What did that look like? SAM: Yeah, it is an incredible time to be building any sort of banking in America around the world. So to that point earlier, $100 billion was pumped into financial technology companies. And so as a result, there are so many companies and so much innovation happening in banking and fintech broadly. And so starting and figuring out what vendor to work with was actually what our strategy from a banking and regulatory perspective was. And in turn, what vendors and in-house technology we needed to build was one of the hardest initial challenges that I've ever had to face in building a company. It is still, despite what many...you'll see a lot of ads, you know, "Have a card online in minutes." It is still in today's day and age quite an achievement to build banking and get it online, and servicing your customers in a scalable and sustainable way. And so we spent a lot of time early on in the architecture and vendor selection process and product strategy process thinking about what vendors to go with; what we were going to build in-house. And before ultimately breaking ground about three months after we began, we set the product itself, which was going to be a checking account for retirees. CHAD: What were the factors that went into choosing the partner that you ultimately chose? SAM: Beyond your standard enterprise vendor selection, we wanted to make sure that it was secure, and we wanted a specific set of features. In our space, there are about six different companies that provide what's called Banking as a Service technology. And so that was one of our key vendors is the technology company that works with the bank to allow us to open checking accounts, fund accounts. And most of those companies have been around for only a few years. And so their products themselves are hardening and being built. And about $200 million I would say has been invested in those companies last year. And so we wanted one that was well-capitalized. We wanted one that had not had any IT security issues. We wanted the underlying bank to be aligned in our mission. Retirees have a variety of specific financial needs. A lot of our product development involves working very closely with the bank. And so, we needed to make sure that the bank itself that they worked with was on board. And lastly, we talked to other customers, and that was ultimately the most valuable thing in our experience and not just the customers that they refer you to but the customers who have left for one reason or another. Those were the major factors that we chose in our Banking as a Service provider. And then, beyond that, that's one piece of the puzzle. In our bank tech stack, we're looking at around 15 different partners across all parts of banking. And that's the largest and most important one. And those were the criteria we used to select. CHAD: I often say when I'm looking at building a product or service, and we look at those integration points with external vendors, it is one of the riskiest parts of building a product because you're not in control of it. So from a business perspective, it's risky. But also, from a technology perspective, that's where estimates can get out of whack. And things can work not like you're expecting or like the documentation said or just surprises crop up along the way. Or when something goes down, your product is broken. And your entire product [laughs] basically is built on those vendor relationships. So, how do you minimize that risk and work in that environment to make a business that works and a product that works? SAM: [chuckles] I suppose the answer is with a lot of prudence, thoughtfulness, and care at a high level. CHAD: [laughs] SAM: I was actually just talking with a CTO friend of mine just talking about how in a lot of startups, one of the skills that I most ask of engineers and engineering leaders early on is vendor selection and how I hadn't seen an interview process that really helped get at that. It's a core part of a lot of technologists' jobs and particularly a lot of engineering folks' jobs. The API docs looked good but did he test it or evaluate it? Was there a third-party tool you could have used instead of building in-house? Those are the sort of questions that a lot of times early-stage startups are answering all the time. And I had yet to see an interview that got at that. So it's a really shrewd point and one that I hope that as technologists and particularly early-stage startups become more about really going deep in one area and then leveraging third parties elsewhere, I hope that we start actually hiring and developing criteria to do that with the people that we assemble. I think the first part what I would say is we described a little bit about the risks. We went through a risk mitigation exercise, which smells very enterprise-y. It's kind of the sort of thing that you would expect exists in some massive waterfall with a Jira board mainframe computer but just listing like, here's this integration. If this were to happen, what would we do? If the API went down, what control do we have, or how could we minimize the impact on our customers? That exercise across some of our biggest integrations helped us select and take on the risks we wanted and avoid the ones we couldn't. So there was a lot of conversation about the sorts of failures we could put up with and how we could put up with them, and the sorts of failures we couldn't. And then really testing for the ones we couldn't to make sure that we were making as good a choice as possible. Despite that thoughtful answer, it was the best we could do. I would say that, particularly in a space that's as fast-moving as Banking as a Service, I would say that a lot of it is still that soft skill, that relational conversations with other teams and folks and whether you trust the team that you're trusting to execute and build what they said they're going to build and that hiring skill but also a good bit of luck as well. CHAD: So correct me if I'm wrong, but up until Sagewell, where you're CEO, you had been CTO of the other companies that you founded and worked at. Is that right? SAM: Yeah, that's correct. CHAD: So, what has the change to being CEO instead of CTO been like for you personally? And was that choice clear from the beginning with Sagewell? SAM: So far, it's been incredibly rewarding. I would say in between startups; I actually volunteered at an organization called PathCheck. And while my title was CTO, the scope of that included partnerships, vendor negotiations, CISO exercises, product. It was a pretty expansive CTO role. And I found myself really energized by the breadth and the ability to work with even more really talented, thoughtful experts in their own domain and empower them to do more. And so I knew in my next role, I wanted more of that breadth. There's an essay that classifies folks as foxes who can do a little bit of everything or hedgehogs who can do one thing really well. And I'm a super fox. [laughter] I love doing lots of things. And so CEO to me is just like an opportunity to...it's maximizing breadth and maximizing difference of experience. And I transitioned, I'd say, from a normal CTO role to a beefy CTO role to making CEO a pretty natural step from there. CHAD: And your co-founder is named Jeff Wright, and he's the COO. How did you meet him and get started with Sagewell? SAM: Jeff and I, it's been wonderful. I was trying to figure out how I was going to get engaged in pandemic work in April of 2020 after leaving my last startup while it was being sold to Capital One. And I was talking with a founder friend of mine, a guy named Ty Harris, who is the CEO of an Insurtech company called Openly. And he was previously the CTO at Liberty Mutual. And Ty and I had a couple of lunches and conversations, and I was talking to him about how it is getting involved in COVID stuff and how I was ultimately my species as an entrepreneur, and I was going to be building something again. And he connected me with Jeff, and Jeff and I touched base quickly in April. And it was a little bit like a frog in the pot sort of situation where it started like, yeah, maybe we could build a company. Let's riff on some ideas and see what's out there. And it was a really, really natural progression from August to a couple of evenings, maybe a Saturday call or two, to most evenings and definitely a Saturday to oh, man, when should we transition? CHAD: You were both working full time on other things at the time. You were working with PathCheck. SAM: Yep, exactly. And so he was the CPO at a company called Plymouth Rock, and I was working at PathCheck. And not to go into PathCheck's story too much, but PathCheck was largely deploying a research technology, the Google and Apple Exposure Notification protocol. And it became clear that most of the states that were going to do anything were already going to do it. And so, it was natural to start thinking about what was next in August and September. And so, as my species does, that then became the night and weekend project to figure out what's next. CHAD: So you mentioned that this is a space that is typically not strongly funded. So was that a challenge for you as you were getting started? How did you get that initial, you know, where did your initial funding come from? And I know you recently raised, at least it was announced, 5.3 million in January. So what was the transition from those early days? Where did the funding come from to ultimately getting the investment in this last round? SAM: Jeff and I worked in the fall of 2020, met our CTO, Chris Toomey, in November actually from connection through a friend. Early on, we were a team with a demo. We really knew that we cared about seniors, and our background is in financial services. We were trying to think of a new product for seniors and so a financial product for seniors. And so, around January, we sharpened our pencils on the user research side of things and the product side of things. And once we had a clearer sense of the product direction we wanted to take, ultimately building banking for retirees, we began the fundraising process. CHAD: So were you essentially self-funding at that point? SAM: Yep. So we were self-funding from January-ish till May. I find that skin in the game to be… I wish I was the sort of founder who could think about flawless ideas without a little pressure. But in my experience, it's actually been where unless I jump in, unless I can have a little bit of pressure, my ideas aren't often as refined as I'd like. And so Jeff joined it full-time in February. And then we fundraised through April, closing a 1 million pre-seed, which is pretty common in fintech. Most financial technology companies the banks won't talk to you until you have at least a million dollars in funding. And so we raised the money we needed from...and who did the money come from? It came from Point Judith Capital, who actually had invested in Ty, the guy who connected us, with his company Openly. So we had our initial conversation with David, who's been absolutely wonderful at Point Judith Capital. And also, Jeff and I knew that innovating for a vulnerable population, ultimately retirees, meant that we wanted to have folks from the beginning who represented the seniority and seriousness with which we are taking our work. And so the second investor who in between the two of them took most of that million was Crossbeam and Raj Date at Crossbeam, who's the former Deputy Director of the U.S. Consumer Protection Bureau. We really wanted folks around the table who knew what innovation looked like and fintech innovation like David, as well as folks who understood the world of government and finance like someone like Raj to innovate thoughtfully with this demo. CHAD: Was it difficult to get those funding rounds? SAM: The first one? Yeah, the first one was about two months. I thought it would have taken about a month. The second one the market is pretty crazy right now. And I would say between my first company and my second, it used to be that you'd set aside six months to fundraise, and so I'd prepared for a six-month fundraise. Started kind of in early October two weeks in, and they were like, "Wow, you've already been in the market for two weeks?" [laughter] And I was like, what? I was totally off base in terms of what was the new normal. Ultimately, that round came together in about a month and a half as well. And so we had a lot of interest. The second round that 5.3 million went from not a ton of interest to tons of interest and lots of folks around the table and having to push folks out or turn folks down pretty quickly. The first round, I would say for a pre-seed, one to two months given that the idea was hardening, sounds about right. The second one was about one to two months but was a little...a lot of people would get excited by the market; they'd get excited by the team. And then they'd say, "You can't get a senior to open up a bank account," and then they'd come back. And then we found one believer alongside David and Raj, who had been with us. And once we got the folks at 25Madison and Merrill, especially, the rest of the round came together really quickly. Mid-roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: Given that you were able to put together a round quickly, how do you decide ultimately not to take even more money? What are the factors that go into deciding how much you're trying to fundraise and how big the round is going to be? And is there pressure as you're doing that to maybe go even bigger? SAM: Yeah, we had, I would say maybe seven and a half million dollars interested. And ever since we've closed, we've had multiple firms who are interested in a new round of capital. The market is really, really quite founder-friendly right now. I think ultimately, for any founder, what you're trying to do is create as much value with as little capital as possible. That's ultimately the game that you're trying to play now. For a little baby company, it's often really hard to figure out how much money or how much value you'll be able to create over what amount of time. There's so much to figure out. There are so many bets and learnings and risks that it's often very hard for a company to say, with $5 million, I'll create $20 million in value. So ultimately, if you're a founder, you're incented to give away as little of the company as possible and create as much value from that. And so when we were doing our modeling, we actually thought that it was somewhere closer to four of what we needed to create the amount of value needed to raise our A. And we ultimately bumped it up to 5.3. And there's a good bit of advice you hear a lot among founders that raising a bit more than you think is prudent, and anyone who has managed a budget knows how that can go. So we ultimately did go up to 5.3. But taking more would have meant that we were paying a premium where we could get that million dollars maybe in a year's time, and we'd be giving away a quarter-point or a half a point of the company for that million where we might be giving away 1% or 1.5% of the company now. So it's all about creating as much value with as little money as possible. And it's easy to get lost in the big rounds and the big numbers. But ultimately, it's pretty simple math. CHAD: And correct me if I'm wrong, and this is a question as much as a statement. So to reiterate, the rounds you're talking about are seed rounds. And so traditionally, what that means is that the majority of work that you have to do is just making the product. But in the space you're in, there is a point in time where you've made the product, and you've shown the traction, so what you have becomes more valuable. And so it might be that the next round, which is maybe a Series A, a significant portion of that capital would be spent on something else like marketing or sales teams and that kind of thing. And you're growing beyond just the product development at that point. Is that how you're thinking about this, or am I wrong? SAM: So it's funny that it's really changed the names. The round size what they mean has changed more in the last two years than ever before, and I would say that, particularly in fintech, because fintech has a number of unique challenges. So I would say that that $1 million round that we raised in May that was really about building a very basic product, a very truly minimally viable acceptable product. And then the seed round in fintechs is often about getting to product-market fit or just demonstrating you can reach your end consumer or target user. In fintech, it's often not quite as much tied to a certain amount of revenue at that stage. It's often about just demonstrating that you can get to that user, and that's because, in financial technology, the cost to acquire is often quite high. And so for a company that only has raised, say, a $5 million pre-seed because of the gravity, because it often costs hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars depending upon the market to acquire a specific user, the math is such that you're just not going to have that many users, and you're not going to be able to get to a certain amount revenue. And so often in fintechs, 1 million gets you...that pre-seed gets you that initial product. The seed is about demonstrating that you can scalably get to that end user. And then the series A is really about blowing that out and starting to exploit that marketing and acquisition machine that you've been building to start creating revenue. That's a little bit industry-specific. Other industries will have similar or different terms. And depending upon what sort of branding a firm might want for the round, you also might hear $100 million pre-seed. You hear those things as well. It's a crazy time to be building a company. CHAD: So you mentioned Chris Toomey, who's the CTO of Sagewell, and he was previously at thoughtbot. As a prior CTO, what were some of the things you looked at in terms of finding Chris and deciding he was the right one to join your team as CTO? I imagine your standards were pretty high. SAM: Yeah, and Chris met them quite happily. As a CTO transitioning to CEO, I think you have to understand your strengths and weaknesses as a CTO as well as the learning curve that you might have stepping into your new role as a CEO. And I would say that one of the fortunate things is that Jeff, my co-founder and COO, we actually have a pretty unique set of skills that can span a lot of different domains. And so I would say that looking at Jeff, Chris, and myself, we really had to make sure we had our bases covered to build the financial and technology product we needed. I would encourage folks building a company early on to really think about your strengths and weaknesses, your founding team's strengths and weaknesses. And as I was getting to know Chris, kind of the initial handshake agreement starting to build and prototype various solutions, I think that I was particularly impressed and looking for someone who was willing to have a deeply experimental and MVP mindset while managing the risks of working with a vulnerable population. And so over the course of December through March or April, in dealing with and spinning up a couple of different prototypes with radically different product strategies and end products, I was able to see how Chris was able to be mature and shrewd about where he could cut corners, where he couldn't cut corners and then execute accordingly. It's funny, Chris and I were talking at our one on one a week or two ago. As a CTO, I know a little more of what's possible. I know if I come in and say, "I want the Taj Mahal," I know you'll get walked back down. Chris and I over the past year...I often come to Chris, having already teared down my Taj Mahal. And I'm like, "Well, Chris, what I really need is one little specific problem." And Chris and I actually set a goal between us that I actually kind of come to him asking for the Taj Mahal next time [laughter] or not next time but sometime in the next year. Because I think one of the things I've had to check or do in CEO is let Chris do CTO's job and not internalize all the time his voice and concerns but actually put forth a vision and not be afraid about the fact that it isn't something that we can get to market in a week or that we can't ship in three or four weeks' time, which is an interesting contract that I think we've developed and an interesting growth area. And it's my job to throw out bigger ideas, not to be the one who tears them down all the time, which is fun, and I enjoy doing that with Chris. CHAD: Yeah, that's an interesting perspective. And I often even working with clients and consulting want that because if you're only getting the small pieces all the time, you cannot be privy to the big picture of what we're aiming for. And that will often lead you to maybe not taking everything into account, either that's on the roadmap or down the road. Or realizing, oh, you're disappointed now, but that's because I didn't know that you wanted to do this. If I had known, then we could have done this in a different way or something like that. And so, getting a sense of that big picture is often important. SAM: Yeah. And it's a fun, I'd say...yeah, and growing with Chris and figuring out that he's the right person for the role as a CTO turned CEO means kicking off the ladder and actually just stepping into my role and letting him do his, which has been a fun contract to establish. CHAD: So, did you work with Chris as a contractor before committing to him as CTO? SAM: Yeah, we were in a consulting relationship. I think Chris was politely under billing. And the pretext is always that this was something that we were really aiming to build a company together, assuming everything worked out across Chris, Jeff, and I. And so, he did start in that capacity. And then I'm trying to remember the exact timelines. Sometimes the paperwork is well after the actual agreement whenever you're creating these companies. But in a few months' time, definitely by July and probably by May, we were building the company and off to the races. CHAD: Now, is that a path that you would recommend to other founding teams looking for a CTO is to not commit early to really make sure that you work well with someone, maybe through a contracting relationship first? SAM: Yeah, I think ultimately, if you're going to be going on a journey, a decade long journey, a lifetime-long journey, through highs and lows, I think the best way for everyone to know what they're getting themselves into, the excitement, and the reward, and the aches, and the pains and the sleepy [inaudible 33:31] in the morning is by working together, and I don't think there's a shortcut. In this case, it depends a lot on the situation. It depends if folks are in a position where they cannot take pay. It depends on whether nights and weekends are free or they have flexibility in their other roles. But generally speaking, I think that ultimately, you're trusting, and your founding team is going to be taking so many risks together that you want to go in as eyes wide open as possible and have removed as much founding team risk, disagreements, misaligned working styles, misaligned visions, or preferences as possible. My coach used to say that that's the number one reason why companies at the seed stage fail is management teams and founding teams. And so as you're thinking about building your company, and I can't emphasize this enough, mitigating and removing founding team risk, however possible, with consulting being one of them and navigating a tough conversation or two being another, is absolutely core to removing as much risk as possible for your startup. CHAD: That's great advice. And just like you and Jeff had a time of working together before you actually started a company together, I think it's great advice to try to find ways to do that with other early members of the team too because it's a big commitment, and you want to make sure that you get it right. SAM: Exactly. CHAD: Well, you've reached sort of the pinnacle of having now someone on your team that used to work at thoughtbot. I think I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that we have another podcast at thoughtbot; it's called The Bike Shed. And Chris started as a host on that show while he was on thoughtbot, and he continues that to this day along with Steph Viccari, who's a team lead at thoughtbot. And so if people are interested in hearing about Chris' work now at Sagewell and following along with the team and the work that he's doing there as well as the work we do at thoughtbot, people can check that out at bikeshed.fm. Sagewell is not a client of thoughtbot. But you've worked with thoughtbot before as a client twice, right? SAM: Yeah, exactly, both at my first company Freebird, which was sold to Capital One, and at PathCheck, the non-profit I worked at. CHAD: So you specifically, I assume, then made an effort to recruit from thoughtbot when you started Sagewell. [laughs] SAM: I would say I know and love the way that thoughtbot approaches building software. And I know and love the people that I've worked with from thoughtbot. And I would say that it was as much a feature of being in the same communities as it was specifying a specific group. But you guys have created a great culture. [laughs] CHAD: I'm just kidding. I didn't actually think that that was the case, but I can guess a lot of the benefits of working with someone who's worked at thoughtbot before because of the level of experience and the level of skill and communication and everything that people at thoughtbot have. But I'm curious, what if I turn that around? Is there a downside to hiring someone who worked at thoughtbot previously to your team? SAM: So one of the things that I love about, particularly early on, we have a hire that we just made recently. She worked at a senior living facility for four or five years and then worked at Wells Fargo for four or five years. And before, we had a bunch of fears, and this new employee listed five or six totally different fears than we ever would have thought of. And so now we have way more fears. And part of that can be unnerving, and part of that can be challenging. And I would say that one of the challenges of working with a team that builds software in such a clear culture is that you might not get all the fears. You might not get certain sorts of diverse perspectives or headaches because of a particular way that product and engineering are conceived. And so one risk...it's kind of the unknown-unknown sort of situation, but it's real in startups which is I think that making sure you have diverse perspectives across the domains where you need to be deeply an expert for folks who are very similar to you is a major risk. CHAD: That's great. Well, Sam, thanks for stopping by and sharing with us. I really wish you and Sagewell and the entire team all the best. SAM: Awesome. It was wonderful talking. CHAD: And if folks want to find out more about Sagewell Financial or follow along with you or get in touch with you, where are all the best places for them to do that? SAM: sagewellfinancial.com is our email. And if you or your parents are interested in what we're building as a customer or a member, you can sign up there. If you'd like to reach me, I'm mostly on Twitter following cute animals and occasionally a good tech post @Ferrumofomega. And if you'd like to contact our company, you can just go to /press and fill out the form there. CHAD: Awesome. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode along with a transcript of this episode and all past episodes of this season at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success.

In this episode, we cover: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:23 - Iwata is the best, rest in peace 00:06:45 - Sam sneaks some SNES emulators/Engineer prep 00:08:20 - AWS, incidents, and China 00:16:40 - Understanding the big picture and moving from project to product 00:19:18 - Sam's time at Snacphat 00:26:40 - Sam's work at Gremlin, and culture changes 00:34:15 - Pokémon Go and Outro TranscriptSam: It's like anything else: You can have good people and bad people. But I wouldn't advocate for no people.Julie: [laugh].Sam: You kind of need humans involved.Julie: Welcome to the Break Things on Purpose podcast, a show about people, culture, and reliability. In this episode, we talk with Sam Rossoff, principal software engineer at Gremlin, about legendary programmers, data center disasters at AWS, going from 15 to 3000 engineers at Snapchat, and of course, Pokémon.Julie: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose. Today, Jason Yee and I are joined by Sam Rossoff, principal software engineer at Gremlin, and max level 100. Pokémon trainer. So Sam, why don't you tell us real quick who you are.Sam: So, I'm Sam Rossoff. I'm an engineer here at Gremlin. I've been in engineering here for two years. It's a good time. I certainly enjoyed it. And before that, I was at Snapchat for six years, and prior to that at Amazon for four years. And actually, before I was at Amazon, I was at Nokia Research Center in Palo Alto, and prior to that, I was at Activision. This was before they merged with Blizzard, all the way back in 2002. I worked in QA.Julie: And do you have any of those Nokia phones that are holding up your desk, or computer, or anything?Sam: I think I've been N95 around here somewhere. It's, like, a phone circa 2009. Probably. I remember, it was like a really nice, expensive phone at the time and they just gave it to us. And I was like, “ oh, this is really nice.”And then the iPhone came out. And I was like [laugh], “I don't know why I have this.” Also, I need to find a new job. That was my primary—I remember I was sitting in a meeting—this was lunch. It wasn't a meeting.I was sitting at lunch with some other engineers at Nokia Research, and they were telling me the story about this app—because the App Store was brand new in those days—it was called iRich, and it was $10,000. It didn't do anything. It was, like, a glowing—it was, like, NFTs, before NFTs—and it was just, like, a glowing thing on your phone. And you just, like, bought it to show you could waste $10,000 an app. And that was the moment where I was like, “I need to get out of this company. I need a new job.” It's depressing at the time, I guess.Julie: So. Sam, you're the best.Sam: No. False. Let me tell you story. There's a guy, his name is Iwata, right? He's a software developer. He works at a company called HAL Laboratories. You may recall, he built a game called Kirby. Very famous game; very popular.HAL Laboratories gets acquired by Nintendo. And Nintendo is like, “Hey, can you”—but Iwata, by the way, is the president of HAL Laboratories. Which is like, you know, ten people, so not—and they're like, “Hey, can you, like, send someone over? We're having trouble with this game we're making.” Right, the game question, at the time they called it Pokémon 2, now we call it Gold and Silver, and Iwata just goes over himself because he's a programmer in addition to be president of HAL Laboratories.And so he goes over there and he's like, “How can I help?” And they're like, “We're over time. We're over budget. We can't fit all the data on the cart. We're just, like, cutting features left and right.” He's like, “Don't worry. I got this.”And he comes up with this crazy compression algorithm, so they have so much space left, they put a second game inside of the game. They add back in features that weren't there originally. And they released on time. And they called this guy the legendary programmer. As a kid, he was my hero.Also famous for building Super Smash Brothers, becoming the president of all of Nintendo later on in his life. And he died a couple years ago, of cancer, if I recall correctly. But he did this motion when he was president of Nintendo. So, you ever see somebody in Nintendo go like this, that's a reference to Iwata, the legendary programmer.Jason: And since this is a podcast, Sam is two hands up, or just search YouTube for—Sam: Iwata.Jason: That's the lesson. [laugh].Sam: [laugh]. His big console design after he became President of Nintendo was the Nintendo Wii, as you may recall, with the nunchucks and everything. Yeah. That's Iwata. Crazy.Julie: We were actually just playing the Nintendo Wii the other day. It is still a high-quality game.Sam: Yeah.Jason: The original Wii? Not like the… whatever?Julie: Yeah. Like, the original Wii.Jason: Since you brought up the Wii, the Wii was the first console I ever owned because I grew up with parents that made it important to do schoolwork, and their entire argument was, if you get a Nintendo, you'll stop doing your homework and school stuff, and your grades will suffer, and just play it all the time. And so they refuse to let me get a Nintendo. Until at one point I, like, hounded them enough-I was probably, like, eight or nine years old, and I'm like, “Can I borrow a friend's Nintendo?” And they were like, sure you can borrow it for the weekend. So, of course, I borrowed it and I played it the whole weekend because, like, limited time. And then they used that as the proof of like, “See? All you did this weekend was play Nintendo. This is why we won't get you one.” [laugh].Sam: So, I had the exact same problem growing up. My parents are also very strict. And firm believers in corporal punishment. And so no video games was very clear. And especially, you know, after Columbine, which was when I was in high school.That was like a hard line they held. But I had friends. I would go to their houses, I would play at their houses. And so I didn't have any of those consoles growing up, but I did eventually get, like, my dad's old hand-me-down computer for, like, schoolwork and stuff, and I remember—first of all, figuring out how to program, but also figuring out how to run SNES emulators on [laugh] on those machines. And, like, a lot of my experience playing video games was waking up at 2 a.m. in the morning, getting on emulators, playing that until about, you know, five, then turning it off and pretending to go back to bed.Julie: So see, you were just preparing to be an engineer who would get woken up at 2 a.m. with a page. I feel like you were just training yourself for incidents.Sam: What I did learn—which has been very useful—is I learned how to fall asleep very quickly. I can fall asleep anywhere, anytime, on, like, a moment's notice. And that's a fantastic skill to have, let me tell you. Especially when [crosstalk 00:07:53]—Julie: That's a magic skill.Sam: Yeah.Julie: That is a magic skill. I'm so jealous of people that can just fall asleep when they want to. For me, it's probably some Benadryl, maybe add in some melatonin. So, I'm very jealous of you. Now I—Jason: There's probably a reason that I'm drinking all this cheap scotch right now.Sam: [laugh].Julie: We should point out that it's one o'clock in the morning for Jason because he's in Estonia right now. So, thank you, A, for doing this for us, and we did promise that you would get to talk about Pokémon. So—Sam: [laugh].Julie: [laugh].Sam: I don't know if you noticed, immediately, that's what I went to. I got a story about Pokémon.Julie: So, have you heard any of our episodes?Sam: I have. I have listened to some. They're mostly Jason, sort of, interviewing various people about their experience. I feel like they come, like, way more well-prepared than I am because they have, like, stuff they want to talk about, usually.Julie: They also generally have more than an hour or two's notice. So.Sam: Well, that's fair. Yeah. That probably [laugh] that probably helps. Whereas, like, I, like, refreshed one story about Iwata, and that's, like, my level of preparation here. So… don't expect too much.Julie: I have no expectations. Jason already had what you should talk about lined up anyway. Something about AWS incidents in China.Sam: Oh, my God. The first question is, which one?Jason: [laugh].Sam: So, I don't know how much you're familiar with the business situation in China, but American businesses are not allowed to operate in China. What happens is you create a Chinese subsidiary that's two-thirds owned by Chinese nationals in some sort of way, you work through other companies directly, and you form, like, these partnerships. And I know you know, very famously, Blizzard did this many years ago, and then, like, when they pulled out China, that company, all the people worked at are like, “Well, we're just going to take your assets and make our own version of World of Warcraft and just, like, run that instead.” But Amazon did, and it was always this long game of telephone, where people from Amazon usually, like, VP, C-level people were asking for various things. And there were people whose responsibility it was to, like, go and make those things happen.And maybe they did or, like, maybe they just said they did, right? And, like, it was never clear how much of it was lost in translation, or they're just, like, dealing with unreasonable requirements, and they're just, like, trying to get something done. But one story is one of my favorites because I was on this call. Amazon required all of their data centers to be multiple zones, right? So, now they talk about availability zones in a region. Internally at Amazon, that's not how we referred to things; it'd be like, there's the data center in Virginia, and there's, like, the first one, the second one, the third one, right? They're just, like, numbered; we knew what they were.And you had to have three of them, and then all services had to be redundant such they could handle a single data center failure. In the earlier days of Amazon, they would actually go turn off data centers to, like, make you prove this as the case. It's was, like, a very early version of chaos engineering. Because it's just, like, unreliable. And unfortunately, AWS kind of put the kibosh on that because it turns out people purchasing VMs on AWS don't like it when you turn off their VMs without warning. Which, like, I'm sympathetic, uh… I don't know.As a side note, if you are data center redundant, that means you're running excess capacity. So, if I'm about to lose a data center, I need to be able to maintain traffic without a real loss in error rates, that means I've got to be running, like, 50% excess capacity if I've only got three data centers, or 33% if you're four data centers. And so capacity of course was always the hard problem when you're dealing with data centers. So, when we were running the Chinese website— z.cn or amazon.cn—there was a data center in China, as you might imagine, as required by the complex business regulations and whatnot.And it had, you know, three availability zones, for lack of a better term. Or we thought it had three availability zones, which of course, this is what happened. One day, I got paged into this call, and they were dealing with a website outage, and we were trying to get people on the ground in China on the call, which as I recall, actually is a real hard problem to get. It was the middle of the night there; there was a very bad rainstorm; people were not near internet connectivity. If you're unfamiliar with the Chinese landscape—well, it's more complex today, but in those days, there were just basically two ISPs in China, and, like, Amazon only paired with one of them.And so if you were on the other one, it was very difficult to get back into Amazon systems. And so they'd have places they could go to so they could connect them when they—and so it was pair to. And so it was a very difficult situation. It took us a while to get people on the phone, but basically, we lost two data centers at the same time, which was very surprising. And later we find out what happened is one of the data centers had flooded, which is bad, bunch of electrical machines flooding for a rainstorm that's got whatever else going on.It turns out the other data center was physically inside of the first [laugh] data center. Which is not the sort of isolation you want between two regions. It's not really clear where in the conversation, you know, things got lost, such that this is what got implemented. But we had three data centers and in theory, and in practice, we had two data centers, since one was inside the other. And when the first one flooded, the, like, floor gave away, and the servers crashed down on top of the other one. [laugh].And so they were literally inside of each other after that point. They took down the Chinese website for Amazon. It was an experience. It was also one of those calls where there's not a lot I could do to help, which is always frustrating for a lot of reasons.Julie: So, how did you handle that call? Out of curiosity, I mean, what do you say?Sam: Well, I'll be honest with you, it took us a long time to get that information, to get save the world. Most of the call actually was trying to get ahold of people try to get information, get translators—because almost everybody on the line did not speak either Cantonese or Mandarin, which is what the engineers were working with—and so by the time we got an understanding—I was in Seattle at the time—Seattle got an understanding of what was happening in—I think it was Beijing. I don't recall off the top of my head—the people on the ground had done a lot of work to isolate and get things up and running, and the remainder of the work was reallocating capacity in the remaining data center so that we wouldn't be running data center redundant, but at the very least, we would be able to serve something. It was, as I recall, it was a very long outage we had to take. Although in those days, the Amazon cn website was not really a profit center.The business was—the Amazon business—was willing to sell things at steep discounts in China to establish themselves in that market, and so, there was always sort of a question of whether or not the outage was saving the company money. Which is, like, sort of a—Julie: [laugh].Sam: —it's like a weird place to be in as an engineer, right? Because you're, like, “You're supposed to be adding business value.” I'm like, “I feel like doing nothing might be adding business out here.” It's not true, obviously because the business value was to be in the Chinese market and to build an Amazon presence for some eventual world. Which I don't know if they ever—they got to. I don't work at Amazon, and haven't in almost a decade now.But it was definitely—it's the kind of thing that wears our morale, right? If you know the business is doing something that is sort of questionable in these ways. And look, in the sales, you know, when you're selling physical goods, industry loss leaders are a perfectly normal part of the industry. And you understand. Like, you sell certain items or loss to get people in the door, totally.But as engineering lacked a real strong view of the cohesive situation on the ground, the business inputs, that's hard on engineering, right, where they're sort of not clear what the right thing is, right? And anytime you take the engineers very far away from the product, they're going to make a bunch of decisions that are fundamentally in a vacuum. And if you don't have a good feel for what the business incentives are, or how the product is interacting with customers, then you're making decisions in a vacuum because there's some technical implementation you have to commit in some way, you're going to make a lot of the wrong decisions. And that was definitely a tough situation for us in those days. I hear it's significantly better today. I can't speak to it personally because I don't work there, but I do hear they have a much better situation today.Julie: Well, I'll tell you, just on the data center thing, I did just complete my Amazon Certified Cloud Practitioner. And during the Amazon training, they drilled it into you that the availability zones were tens of miles apart—the data centers were tens of miles apart—and now I understand why because they're just making sure that we know that there's no data centers inside data centers. [laugh].Sam: It was a real concern.Julie: [laugh]. But kind of going back though, to the business outcomes, quite a while ago, I used to give a talk called, “You Can't Buy DevOps,” and a lot of the things in that talk were based off of some of the reading that I did, in the book, Accelerate by Dr. Nicole Forsgren, Gene Kim, and Jez Humble. And one of the things they talked about is high-performing teams understanding the business goals. And kind of going back to that, making those decisions in a vacuum—and then I think, also, when you're making those decisions in a vacuum, do you have the focus on the customer? Do you understand the direction of the organization, and why are you making these decisions?Jason: I mean, I think that's also—just to dovetail on to that, that's sort of been the larger—if we look at the larger trend in technology, I think that's been the goal, right? We've moved from project management to product management, and that's been a change. And in our field, in SRE and things, we've moved from just thinking of metrics, and there were all these monitoring frameworks like USE (Utilization, Saturation, Errors) and RED (Rate, Errors, Duration) and monitoring for errors, and we've moved to this idea of SLOs, right? And SLOs are often supposed to be based on what's my customer experience? And so I think, overall, aside from Accelerate and DevOps, DevOps I feel like, has just been one part of this longer journey of getting engineers to understand where they fit within the grander scheme of things.Sam: Yeah. I would say, in general, anytime you have some sort of metric, which you're working towards, in some sort of reasonable way, it's easy to over-optimize for the metric. And if you think of the metric instead as sort of like the needle on a compass, it's like vaguely pointing north, right, but keep in mind, the reason we're heading north is because X, Y, Z, right? It's a lot easier for, like, individuals making the decisions that they have to on a day-to-day basis to make the right ones, right? And if you just optimize for the metric—I'm not saying metrics aren't helpful; they're extremely important. I would rather be lost with a compass than without one, but I also would like to know where I'm going and not just be wandering to northwards with the compass, right?Julie: Absolutely. And then—Jason: I mean, you don't want to get measured on lines of code that you commit.Sam: Listen. I will commit 70 lines of code. Get ready.Julie: Well, and metrics can be gamed, right? If people don't understand why those metrics are important—the overall vision; you've just got to understand the vision. Speaking of vision, you also worked at Snap.Sam: I did. I did. That was a really fun place to work. I joined Snapchat; there were 30 people at the company and 14 engineers. Very small company. And a lot of users, you know, 20-plus million users by that point, but very small company.And all the engineers, we used to sit in one room together, and so when you wanted to deploy the production back end, you, like, raised your hand. You're like, “Hey, I'm going to ship out the code. Does anyone have changes that are going out, or is everyone else already doing it?” And one of my coworkers actually wrote something into our deploy script so the speakers on your computer would, like, say, “Deploying production” just so, like, people could hear when it went out the door. Because, like, when you're all in one room, that's, like, a totally credible deployment strategy.We did build automation around that on CircleCI, which in those days was—I think this was 2014—much less big than it is today. And the company did eventually scale to at least 3000 engineers by the time I left, maybe more. It was hard for me to keep track because the company just grown in all these different dimensions. But it was really interesting to live through that.Julie: So, tell me about that. You went from, what, you said, 30 engineers to 3000 in the time that you were there.Sam: Fifteen engineers, I was the fifteenth.Julie: Fifteen. Fifteen engineers. What were some of the pain points that you experienced? And actually maybe even some advice for folks going through big company growth spurts?Sam: Yeah, that hypergrowth? I think it's easier for me to think about the areas that Snap did things wrong, but those were, like, explicit decisions we made, right? It might not be the case that you have these problems at your company. Like, one of the problems Snap had for a long time, we did not hire frontline managers or TPMs, and what that did is it create a lot of situations where you have director-levels with, like, 50-plus direct reports who struggled to make sure that—I don't know, there's no way you're going to manage 50-plus direct reports as engineers, right? Like, and it took the company a while to rectify that because we had such a strong hiring pipeline for engineers and not a strong hiring pipeline for managers.I know there's, like, a lot of people saying companies like, “Oh, man, these middle managers and TPM's all they do is, like, create work for, like, real people.” No. They—I get to see the world without them. Absolutely they had enormous value. [laugh]. They are worth their weight in gold; there's a reason they're there.And it's not to say you can't have bad ones who add negative value, but that's also true for engineers, right? I've worked with engineers, too, who also have added negative value, and I had to spend a lot of my time cleaning up their code, right? It's like anything else: You can have good people and bad people. But I wouldn't advocate for no people.Julie: [laugh].Sam: You kind of need humans involved. The thing that was nice about Snap is Snap was a very product-led company, and so we always had an idea of what the product is that we were trying to build. And that was, like, really helpful. I don't know that we had, like, a grand vision for, like, how to make the internet better like Google does, but we definitely had an idea of what we're building and the direction we're moving it in. And it was very much read by Evan Spiegel, who I got to know personally, who spent a lot of time coming down talking to us about the design of the product and working through the details.Or at least, you know, early on, that was the case. Later on, you know, he was busy with other stuff. I guess he's, like, a CEO or something, now.Julie: [laugh].Sam: But yeah, that was very nice. The flip side meant that we under-invested in areas around things like QA and build tools and these other sorts of pieces. And, like, DevOps stuff, absolutely. Snapchat was on an early version of Google Cloud Platform. Actually an early version of something called App Engine.Now, App Engine still exist as a product. It is not the product today that it was back in 2014. I lived through them revving that product, and multiple deprecations and the product I used in 2014 was a disaster and huge pain, and the product they have today is actually semi-reasonable and something I've would use again. And so props to Google Cloud for actually making something nice out of what they had. And I got to know some of their engineers quite well over the—[laugh] my tenure, as Snap was the biggest customer by far.But we offboarded, like, a lot of the DevOps works onto Google-and paid them handsomely for it—and what we found is you kind of get whatever Google feels like level of support, which is not in your control. And when you have 15 engineers, that's totally reasonable, right? Like, if I need to run, like, a million servers and I have 15 engineers, it's great to pay Google SREs to, like, keep track of my million servers. When you have, you know, 1000 engineers though, and Google wants half a billion dollars a year, and you're like, “I can't even get you guys to get my, like, Java version revved, right? I'm still stuck on Java 7, and this Java 8 migration has been going on for two years, right?”Like, it's not a great situation to be in. And Snap, to their credit, eventually did recognize this and invested heavily in a multi-cloud solution, built around Kubernetes—maybe not a surprise to anyone here—and they're still migrating to that, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know. I haven't worked in that company for two years now. But we didn't have those things, and so we had to sort of rebuild at a very, sort of, large scale.And there was a lot of stuff we infrastructure we set up in the early days in, like, 2014, when, like, ah, that's good enough, this, like, janky python script because that's what we had time for, right? Like, I had an intern write a janky Python script that handled a merge queue so that we could get changes in, and that worked really great when there was like, a dozen engineers just, like, throwing changes at it. When there was, like, 500 engineers, that thing resulted in three-day build times, right? And I remember, uh, what was this… this was 2016… it was the winter of either 2016 to 2017 or 2017 to 2018 where, like, they're like, “Sam, we need to, like, rebuild the system because, like, 72 hours is not an acceptable time to merge code that's already been approved.” And we got down to 14 minutes.So, we were able to do it, right, but you need to be willing to invest the time. And when you're strapped for resources, it's very easy to overlook things like dev tools and DevOps because they're things that you only notice when they're not working, right? But the flip side is, they're also the areas where you can invest and get ten times the output of your investment, right? Because if I put five people on this, like, build system problem, right, all of a sudden, I've got, like, 100x build performance across my, like, 500 engineers. That's an enormous value proposition for your money.And in general, I think, you know, if you're a company that's going through a lot of growth, you have to make sure you are investing there, even if it looks like you don't need it just yet. Because first of all, you do, you're just not seeing it, but second of all, you're going to need it, right? Like, that's what the growth means: You are going to need it. And at Snap I think the policy was 10% of engineering resources were on security—which is maybe reasonable or not; I don't know. I didn't work on security—but it might also be the case that you want maybe 5 to 10% of the engineering resources working on your internal tooling.Because that is something that, first of all, great value for your money, but second of all, it's one of those things where all of a sudden, you're going to find yourself staring at a $500 million bill from Google Cloud or AWS, and be like, “How did we do this to ourselves?” Right? Like, that's really expensive for the amount of money we're making. I don't know what the actual bill number is, but you know, it's something crazy like that. And then you have to be like, “Okay, how do we get everything off of Google Cloud and onto AWS because it's cheaper.” And that was a—[laugh] that was one heck of a migration, I'll tell you.Julie: So, you've walked us through AWS and through Snap, and so far, we've learned important things such as no data centers within data centers—Sam: [laugh].Julie: —people are important, and you should focus on your tooling, your internal tooling. So, as you mentioned before, you know, now you're at Gremlin. What are you excited about?Sam: Yeah. I think there's, like, a lot of value that Gremlin provides to our customers. I don't know, one of the things I liked working at Snapchat is, like, I don't particularly like Facebook. I have not liked Facebook since, like, 2007, or something. And there's, like, a real, like, almost, like, parasitic aspect to it.In my work at Snap, I felt a lot better. It's easy to say something pithy, like, “Oh, you're just sending disappearing photos.” Like, yeah, but, like, it's a way people stay connected that's not terrible the way that Facebook is, right? I felt better about my contribution.And so similarly, like, I think Gremlin was another area where, like, I feel a lot be—like, I'm actually helping my customers. I'm not just, like, helping them down a poor path. There's some, like, maybe ongoing conversation around if you worked in Amazon, like, what happens in FCs and stuff? I didn't work in that part of the company, but like, I think if I had to go back and work there, that's also something that might, you know, weigh on me to some degree. And so one of the—I think one of the nice things about working at Gremlin is, like, I feel good about my work if that makes sense.And I didn't expect it. I mean, that's not why I picked the job, but I do like that. That is something that makes me feel good. I don't know how much I can talk about upcoming product stuff. Obviously, I'm very excited about upcoming product stuff that we're building because, like, that's where I spend all my time. I'm, like, “Oh, there's, like, this thing and this thing, and that's going to let people do this. And then you can do this other thing.”I will tell you, like, I do—like, when I conceptualize product changes, I spend a lot of time thinking, how is this going to impact individual engineers? How is this going to impact their management chain, and their, like, senior leadership director, VP, C-suite level? And, like, how do we empower engineers to, like, show that senior leadership that work is getting done? Because I do think it's hard—this is true across DevOps and it's not unique to Chaos Engineering—I do think it's hard sometimes to show that you're making progress in, like, the outages you avoided, right? And, like, that is where I spend, like, a lot of my thought time, like, how do I like help doing that?And, like, if you're someone who's, like, a champion, you're, you're like, “Come on, everyone, we should be doing Chaos Engineering.” Like, how do I get people invested? You care, you're at this company, you've convinced them to purchase Gremlin, like, how do I get other engineers excited about Chaos Engineering? I think, like, giving you tools to help with that is something that, I would hope, I mean, I don't know what's actually implemented just yet, but I'd hope is somewhere on our roadmap. Because that's the thing like, that I personally think a lot about.I'll tell you another story. This was also when I was at Amazon. I had this buddy, we'll call him Zach because that's his name, and he was really big on testing. And he had all this stuff about, like, testing pyramid, if you're familiar with, like, programming unit testing, integration testing, it's all that stuff. And he worked as a team—a sister team to mine—and a lot engineers did not care heavily about testing. [laugh].And he used to try to, like, get people to, like, do things and talk about it and stuff. They just, like, didn't care, even slightly. And I also kind of didn't care, so I wasn't any better, but something I did one day on my team is I was like, “You know, somebody else at Amazon”—because Amazon invested very heavily in developer tools—had built some way that was very easy to publish metrics into our primary metrics thing about code coverage. And so I just tossed in all the products for my team, and that published a bunch of metrics. And then I made a bunch of graphs on a wiki somewhere that pulled live data, and we could see code coverage.And then I, like, showed it in, like, a team meeting one week, and everyone was like, “Oh, that's kind of interesting.” And then people were like, “Oh, I'm surprised that's so low.” And they found, like, some low-hanging fruit and they started moving it up. And then, like, the next year bi-weekly with our skip-level, like, they showed the progress, he's like, “Oh, this it's really good.” You made, like, a lot of progress in the code coverage.And then, like, all of a sudden, like, when they're inviting new changes, they start adding testing, or, like, all sudden, like, code coverage, just seemed ratchet up. Or some [unintelligible 00:30:51] would be like, “Hey, I have this thing so that our builds would fail now if code coverage went down.” Right? Like, all of a sudden, it became, sort of like, part of the culture to do this, to add coverage. I remember—and they, like, sort of pollinated to the sister teams.I remember Zach coming by my desk one day. He's like, “I'm so angry. I've been trying for six months to get people to care. And you do some dumb graphs and our wiki.” And I'm like, “I mean, I don't know. I was just, like, an idea I had.” Right? Like, it wasn't, like, a conscious, like, “I'm going to change the culture moment,” it was very much, like, “I don't know, just thought this was interesting.”And I don't know if you know who [John Rauser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL2WDcNu_3A) is, but he's got this great talk at Velocity back in 2010, maybe 2011, where he talks about culture change and he talks about how humans do change culture readily—and, you know, Velocity is very much about availability and latency—and what we need to do in the world of DevOps and reliability in general is actually we have to change the culture of the companies we're at. Because you're never going to succeed, just, like, here emoting adding chaos engineering into your environment. I mean because one day, you're going to leave that company, or you're going to give up and there'll be some inertia that'll carry things forward, but eventually, people will stop doing it and the pendulum will swing back the other way, and the systems will become unreliable again. But if you can build a culture, if you can make people care—of course, it's the hardest thing to do in engineering, like, make other engineers care about something—but if you can do it, then it will become sort of self-perpetuating, right, and it becomes, like, a sort of like a stand-alone complex. And then it doesn't matter if it's just you anymore.And as an engineer, I'm always looking for ways to, like, remove myself as a critical dependency, right? Like, if I could work myself out of a job, thank you, because, like, [laugh] yeah, I can go work on something else now, right? Like, I can be done, right? Because, like, as we all know, you're never done with software, right? There's always a next version; there's always, like, another piece; you're always, like, migrating to a new version, right? It never really ends, but if you can build something that's more than just yourself—I feel like this is, like, a line from Batman or something. “Mr. Wayne, if you can become a legend”—right? Like, you'd be something more yourself? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not a great delivery like Liam Neeson. But yeah.Jason: I like what you said, though. You talked about, like, culture change, but I think a big thing of what you did is exposing what you're measuring or starting to measure this thing, right? Because there's always a statement of, “You can't improve until you measure it,” right? And so I think simply because we're engineers, exposing that metric and understanding where we're at is a huge motivator, and can be—and obviously, in your case—enough to change that culture is just, like, knowing about this and seeing that metric. And part of the whole DevOps philosophy is the idea that people want to do the best job that they can, and so exposing that data of, “Look, we're not doing very well on this,” is often enough. Just knowing that you're not doing well, is often enough to motivate you to do better.Sam: Yeah, one of the things we used to say at Amazon is, “If you can't measure it, it didn't happen.” And like, it was very true, right? I mean, that was a large organization that moves slowly, but, like, it was very true that if you couldn't show a bunch of graphs or reports somewhere, oftentimes people would just pretend like it never happened.Julie: So, I do you want to bring it back just a little bit, in the last couple of minutes that we have, to Pokémon. So, you play Pokémon Go?Sam: I do. I do play Pokémon Go.Julie: And then how do people find you on Pokémon Go?Sam: My trainer—Jason: Also, I'm going to say, Sam, you need to open my gifts. I'm in Estonia.Sam: [laugh]. It's true. I don't open gifts. Here's the problem. I have no space because I have, like, all these items from all the, like, quests and stuff they've done recently.They're like, “Oh, you got to, like, make enough space, or you could pay us $2 and we'll give you more space.” I'm like, “I'm not paying $2,” right? Like—Jason: [laugh].Sam: And so, I just, like, I have to go in every now and then and, like, just, like, delete a bunch of, like, Poké Balls or something. Like maybe I don't need 500 Poké Balls. That's fair.Jason: I mean, I'm sitting on 628 Ultra Balls right now. [laugh].Sam: Yeah. Well, maybe you don't need—Jason: It's community day on Sunday.Sam: I know, I know. I'm excited for it. I have a trainer code. If you need my trainer to find me on Pokémon Go, it's 1172-0487-4013. And you can add me, and I'll add you back because, like, I don't care; I love playing Pokémon, and I'd play every day. [laugh].Julie: And I feel it would be really rude to leave Jason out of this since he plays Pokémon a lot. Jason, do you want to share your…Jason: I'm not sharing my trainer code because at this point, I'm nearing the limit, and I have all of these Best Friends that I'm actually Lucky Friends with, and I have no idea how to contact them to actually make Lucky trades. And I know that some of them are, like, halfway around the world, so if you are in the Canary Islands and you are a friend of mine on Pokémon Go, please reach out to me on Twitter. I'm @gitbisect on Twitter. Message me so that we can actually, like, figure out who you are. Because at some point, I will go to the Canary Islands because they are beautiful.Sam: Also, you can get those, like, sweet Estonia gifts, what will give you those eggs from Estonia, and then when you trade them you get huge mileage on the trades. I don't know if this is a thing you [unintelligible 00:36:13], Jason, but, like, my wife and I both compete for who can get the most mileage on the trip. And of course, we traded each other but that's, like, a zero-sum game, right? And so the total mileage on trades is a big thing in my house.Jason: Well, the next time we get together, I've got stuff from New Zealand, so we can definitely get some mileage there.Sam: Excellent.Julie: Well, this is excellent. I feel like we have learned so much on this episode of Break Things on Purpose, from obviously the most important information out there—Pokémon—but back to some of the history of Nintendo and Amazon and Snap and all of it. And so Sam, I just want to thank you for being on with us today. And folks again, if you want to be Sam's friend on Pokémon Go—I'm sorry, I don't really know how it works. I don't even know if that's the right term—Sam: It's fine.Julie: You've got his code. [laugh]. And thanks again for being on our podcast.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called, “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

I typically open up my monologue with setting some tension or to attempt to provoke how a grand idea might come together in the upcoming audio. I don't have that today. What I have is a young entrepreneur that impressed me with his story, branding, and how he's approaching the business of…college movers. I know you normally tune in for the SaaS powered wins or the WordPress unicorns, but trust me when I tell you, Sam Chason, founder of Storage Scholars, is bringing the heat. I'll admit, his story was so good, that I almost didn't believe him. I fully expected to decline the interview headed into our pre-interview. Luckily that wasn't the case, and now I'll be rooting for him from the sidelines hoping he can turn this business into a massive success. By the way, we do talk WordPress/WooCommerce and the platforms he's tried in the past — we're still getting our hands dirty here. If you enjoy the episode and want to buy me a virtual coffee in support, go to buymeacofee.com/mattreport and show your support for the show. Episode transcript [00:00:00] Sam: Storage scholars is a door to door, white glove service for college students. So basically the way that the service works it's generally for out-of-state or international studies.[00:00:09] I was from New York. I went to a school called wake forest, North Carolina, and I had two international hallmates, one from China, one from Ethiopia, and I would stereotypically see them bring over two large suitcases overseas. They'd bought the rest of the stuff that they needed at target bed bath and beyond, et cetera.[00:00:24] And there was just no way they were going to ship back their bedding or school supplies back to China. Right. So I thought, had to be a better way type deal. So the way the service works now is students receive boxes and packing supplies that we prefer finalists. They packed up their stuff. They snap a couple photos of the items.[00:00:39] They're looking at store add any extra insurance, lock up their room and go home. And then we generally have contracts with these universities. We get key access from the dorms. We use students on those campuses to do a contact us, move out about a 24 to 72 hours after campus closes, store it for the summer, however long they need to store it for and then have it ready and waiting in their new room pre delivered when they arrived back on campus.[00:01:01] So that's some storage scholars in a nutshell.[00:01:03] Matt: Yeah. When I first, before. You and I chatted. I was like, okay, moving. Like I say, moving company. And in my, in my head, I'm like, big industry makes sense. But then when we chatted and you're like, yeah, but people don't need to bring all their stuff back.[00:01:17] They're gone for whatever a month, 45 days, a half semester or whatever the thing is. Ship, all this stuff back. And I was like, wow, this is really interesting. You mentioned that there were some competitors out there kind of doing this same thing, but just kind of half asking it. Right. It was just a little bit of, one thing, a little bit of the other, not the full, the full compliment.[00:01:38] What are you doing better than the[00:01:39] Sam: current. Well, yeah, definitely shout out Nick hubris, sweaty start up. He was one of the first people I met doing this up at Cornell and that's kinda how I ended up on Twitter and probably my view as well. He, he sold a similar business up in the Northeast, so we were more so in the Southeast, we actually just recently signed a contract with a school in Pennsylvania a couple of days ago.[00:01:56] So making an expansion there watch out during removers, but a lot of it has to do with not only the university partnerships. So we're doing everything by the school's books. There's some others kind of, Companies out there that will just farm emails blast to a school and just figure they can get 30, 40, 50 customers per school and say that they operate at 80 a hundred institutions across the country.[00:02:16] We're more about building deep in Beth's in-depth relationships with those schools. And not only with the administration, but then also. Really fostering entrepreneurship on these campuses and kind of in two to three students, generally sophomores, they have some long longevity and bring these kids on board.[00:02:31] Having them shadow us, they can learn really important, like marketing operations, entrepreneurial type skills in school and ideally pay the wafers their way through college, kind of the same way that I[00:02:40] Matt: did. Yeah. So it's like, it's I don't, these are my words. You tell me paid internship. Is that how it.[00:02:47] Sam: That's funny. You say that that's actually quote unquote what I just put on our handshake profile. Some of these schools, cause it was not getting accepted before as more of like a high paying job. I figured not only is that what's more appealing to a college student nowadays. They want something for their resume, but also something they can make money on it, but it's also kind of the way we were able to get it out of these universities and getting on those job boards in the shop postings.[00:03:07] But, but it's very valid to,[00:03:08] Matt: so to my dedicated audience, so. Of what Sam just said is probably clicking to you. Why? Sam is here generally, I'm interviewing somebody who has a digital product, a digital service and agency software as a service. We're going to get to that in a moment, but I really love the, because again, people who listen to this know that I'm a huge proponent of entrepreneurship, but learning the nuts and bolts of it, rolling up the sleeves and getting to work.[00:03:33] It's a fantastic model. So I applaud you for like having this platform for people to. Really figure things out. I don't want to say the hard way, but like, you're getting them a job. They're learning all of this stuff. Have you been able to measure that? I know it's kind of early days for you, but how have you measured the success of people actually learning the business side of things, even if they're not sticking with you, for years as their end, is there anything like that, that you have a feedback loop?[00:03:59] Sam: Yeah. I mean myself. I The reason why I started this business was to pay my way through school. I did it more out of necessity. But my business partner, actually, he was a year younger than me. He's across the room over here. He's probably got his headphones in, but he was a biochemistry major coming to school, like 4.0 student, like probably could have gone to Stanford med.[00:04:16] But really got the itch, got the bug working with. And decided about halfway through his junior year to tell his whole family, Hey, I'm putting my medical career on hold. I really want to actually make, not necessarily to make a difference, be able to actually do things with my, with do things with my time, like immediately, as opposed to going to medical school residency and not be able to actually have a career until 10, 12 years after school.[00:04:36] So he was probably like the first one. And then. As we went out and started hiring these co-founders, I'm going to had kids that were sophomores, juniors, seniors, and they graduated and they all wanted to had three of them wanted to then work full-time afterwards. We ended up doing that. He ended up running like a residential, commercial moving company that we had for a little while.[00:04:52] Other ones have then worked for a little bit and then gone out and worked for companies like at JP Morgan. And truly, I think the biggest thing about this is a lot of times people will have things on the resume. And, but they don't necessarily have the ability to talk about it. Like, Hey, I worked at, I intern at UI Parthenon.[00:05:07] That's been amazing, but like, what did you actually do at Eli Parthenon? Right. And when they work at storage scholars, they have such a breadth of actually what they did. They went from they're calling the customers. They're actually meeting the customers. They're executing tons of marketing strategies are actually learning sales experience directly from us.[00:05:25] Full-scale entrepreneurship and we're taking all the tools that we've had found successful on campuses in the past, give them that playbook, but then also giving them pretty much unlimited budget to then do whatever they feel is best on their campus. And they feel really empowered. That's really where we found most of our success.[00:05:40] Matt: That's awesome stuff. A listener. You might hear some noise in the background. Sam is sitting in his common area of his apartment building, but I'm happy to report if you're watching the show on, on YouTube, YouTube, youtube.com/uh, the Matt report. Sam has a professional microphone in front of him. Thanks to thanks to me, urging him to get one, because he'll be doing a round of podcasts and you'll realize how good it is for his business and the marketing side.[00:06:02] In our pre-interview you mentioned Excel. I want to talk about the software side of it, and then we'll talk about more of like that marketing and branding stuff. Cause I think your, your branding's on point and I want to learn a little bit more. How you got to that point, why you realize that's important, but in our pre-interview you mentioned that your brother helped build some of the software.[00:06:21] Of the business. A lot of my listeners are into that and to the software side, how they're making things click. Is there a certain tech stack that you can talk about that you're using to build the inner inner workings of the business or even the public facing one? Are you using WordPress for the website?[00:06:38] Sam: Stuff like that? I guess I'll start with the part that I'm more knowledgeable, but the front end was at one point it was WooCommerce when it first, first. Went to Squarespace. And then actually I'm probably about 80% done with migrating over to a web flow. Sorry, escaped my mind for a second. So the,[00:06:58] Matt: that you for leaving woo commerce.[00:07:00] And then, then now you're kind of, okay, he's going back to Webflow. So at least it's something that's.[00:07:04] Sam: Yeah, so more so from the aesthetic design aspect, we go into web flow mean not, we were kind of reaching our capabilities a lot more of like block tacks and block images on Squarespace. And I just wasn't able to kind of take it where I want it to go in terms of the branding.[00:07:17] But then the backend is, has gone through. A ton of different iterations. A lot of it had to do with, we had one business model and then you get key access from the universities. You go to a different business model, then you have COVID and you have to start doing like shipping packages. And my five brothers listened to this.[00:07:33] He definitely was a little frustrated. His, his, his answer was always, yes. Yes, we could do that, but w I don't think we really understood exactly what yes, Matt and all the work that went into that. And we have, I think 287 custom fields for each associated account for different like yes-no formulas and stuff like that, too.[00:07:50] But it's, it's basically built mostly on PHP angler a and my SQL eight in terms of the, kind of the front end of the database, and then AWS as well. So we're actually, he's stepping in. He's coming more of like a CTO role. And we're bringing in kind of like a development team. So we have two full-time developers, as well as somebody who's kind of managing them as well.[00:08:10] And they should be coming on board in the next couple of weeks. It will be the real test of all the feedback we've gotten is that he has really clean code. And I really hope that to be true, but[00:08:18] Matt: if not, why not? Brother's not getting anything for Christmas. Coming[00:08:21] Sam: now. He's, he's, he's an incredible mind.[00:08:23] So I would assume all of that stuff is.[00:08:25] Matt: I, I want to talk about this software segment for a little bit here. When you left WooCommerce, what were your reasons? You're not in an uncommon, a lot of people listening to this too. There's a segment who are agency owners, freelancers. They talked a lot of folks who hop through different CMSs.[00:08:40] They hear a bunch of different things. You're not in an uncommon seat to be making these jokes. But what was it for you to leave WooCommerce to begin with?[00:08:47] Sam: Yeah, you have to appreciate that. I was 18 and I was better than my first ever website. And I just had my brother at the time because he was the only like technical person.[00:08:54] I knew, Hey, like what should we build the website on? He kind of helped me build the WooCommerce website to begin with. And then I had a friend that was working for kind of a different startup. It was more, it was a food and Bev startups with a little more of a prettier interface. He's like, you gotta use Squarespace.[00:09:07] You gotta start using canvas. This is mind blowing to me like, oh, I can actually just drag and drop and make this as opposed to relying on my brother to actually go in and design something where he was extremely technically sound. But aesthetically is probably is more of a secondary. So that was more so just the ability for me to do it myself.[00:09:23] But I'm sure now, five, six years later will commerce would, it would have been more of a drag and drop. It just was a little more intimidating at the time. Yeah, for[00:09:30] Matt: sure. For sure. Is the software side without revealing the secret sauce. Is that a secret sauce for you over your competition?[00:09:39] Like what technologies or how do you simplify this experience for your customers through the avenue of.[00:09:47] Sam: A hundred percent. It's definitely, there's no reason to fully reinvent the wheel. Storage and moving companies existed obviously for decades, what we do. It's, you can't buy some off the shelf software.[00:09:58] That's actually going to work for exactly what you're looking for. So we've definitely, scoured the competition. We've built our own software and then we've also kind of taken probably some of the 10, five, 10% from these other. Worked for them. And put it into our platform. Of course they can kind of like a, a Frank and business of, of storage scholars for the college Jordan's game.[00:10:17] But I think a couple of the things are you market to the college students, but the real customers are kind of the parents. So that was the biggest lesson we learned in terms of making accounts that can give both parent and student access where the student come on, they can make the account, the parent that doesn't have to like contact the student to find out their log.[00:10:34] The parent can pay. The student can edit the pick-up drop-off information. It's a whole open flow of information that in the past it would be that scenario would be that Jane Smith is a divorced mom and she made an account for her son Johnny Maxwell and. The account would say Jane Smith, but it's actually for the sun and it's like, what is going on?[00:10:54] Right. So being able to really be flawless in the flow of information and then that way we actually know exactly who we're communicating to, and we can also communicate both to the students and parents and keep everybody in the loop is it's probably the biggest differentiator.[00:11:05] Matt: Is this all website on the website or is there a mobile.[00:11:08] That everybody has instant access to.[00:11:11] Sam: Yeah, it's a mobily optimized website right now. That's actually where we're stepping into as well as making an app. I think the initial instinct was why do we need an app who wants to download a storage app and have it on their phone at all times? But at the same time, there is definitely limitations with websites and being able to upload images quickly.[00:11:27] And just more so the speed of the site is what's holding us back right now from not necessarily a customer standpoint, that's a lot simpler, but more of a managerial standpoint because customer they're uploading. Five images, total where the managers are going in, potentially looking at 600 orders in a one or two day period and just the load speed and the page speed needs to be increased.[00:11:44] So making a oh an app first for the managers where they can also integrate all the software, use it right now, like off the shelf in terms of time tracking payroll and also integrating our actual software altogether to have one harmonious unit.[00:11:58] Matt: What challenges are you finding? Kind of like you're almost in that marketplace.[00:12:04] Conundrum where you need to kind of serve two different crowds, right? So in a, in a marketplace standpoint, you need the customers to show up and you need the inventory to sell them in your case, you need the customers to show up, but you also you're like, so you're building a software for these customers to snap the photos of the stuff.[00:12:21] People need to pack up and move for them. But then you're also trying to build software for your team to use, efficiently and effectively. How is that process? Like, you get customers that give you feedback. Hey, this experience was great. This experience sucked. And then you get the same feedback from your, from your employees.[00:12:35] Or like, I can't find the stuff fast enough, or I can't see all the orders coming in. Has that been a challenge at all or fairly smooth sailing so[00:12:43] Sam: far? Yeah, definitely. Always been customer first. I think the customer experience has not been sacrificed by any means, but it's been the iterations of the business.[00:12:53] So like right now, About 80% or sorry to say it's about 50, 50, I would say at this point, because we keep changing of our business is key access schools, kids leave their stuff in their room. They go home. We do big mass move-outs in 24, 48 hours. That has, Boriso been put on the back burner because we have a little more time and autonomy.[00:13:13] We're not dealing directly with the students. Face-to-face where we can kind of sit back and wait for the website to load or just kind of go on your computer. Make that work, but then you have an entirely different way. We built it where it's like a by appointment where you meet the customers at the door, they pick up time, they're on a alive queue and then there's worklist associated with that.[00:13:30] So the by appointment has been perfected, but then now that we continue to evolve and make the business model better, it's like actually having them make two different work lists, one for like a one day, move out and one for like a 10 day move out. And with, with all the things that have obviously happened in the last 12 months, we had to.[00:13:46] Make some other things become priority, but I think, I don't think, this year is exactly what we're doing. We're actually going to make that. So they're both working and you can have a work list. You can download that. You can search by it. You can filter by dorm. You can filter by floor of the dorm, and then you're just going through and just crushing dorm by dorm, as opposed to like looking at specific dates or people are signing up for their move-outs.[00:14:05] I want to[00:14:05] Matt: move on to talk about the challenges of running the business. Aside from the software and talk about these logistic things, part of the advantage. I remember you telling me and you, I think you mentioned it before in the pre-interview is that you do go into the room, right? They, you get access to the room to grab the.[00:14:21] And your competition doesn't do that, right?[00:14:25] Sam: Yeah. So, some. Some of these schools have access to the dorms. But the thing is, is that a lot of them are, are basically more so high level marketing companies. And then they're farming out the actual, moving to local moving companies and with what's going on with COVID and stuff as well, in terms of like having, being coming vaccinated, that's one big barrier to entry at like, well, how are you going to trust us outside moving company to walk into your dorms, but who can you trust?[00:14:49] The students on your campus because they've been vaccinated. So that was kind of one way for us to get a backdoor approach to that. And then on top of that too, if you're an 18 year old girl and your father is sending you to school, does your father really want you to have, 40 old man walking into your room stereotypically, right.[00:15:03] And walking into that dorm and picking up your stuff and moving it out when you could have a kid that was in your calculus class. And we definitely do struggle with the kind of balancing that image of peer to peer, but also. Kind of perfection and, level of quality because some people are like, this is awesome.[00:15:18] You're my, your. Current, classmate at the same time, my mom doesn't mind if I can trust you with my stuff. So that's another reason kind of behind the branding and trying to make us see them a more of like the Uber black premier service. We're not a discount service, we're charging a premium price and, our level of service should be reflected in that just because we're using students, that doesn't necessarily decrease the quality.[00:15:37] It's just increasing the personalization. Yeah.[00:15:40] Matt: And, but the particular challenge getting to was is you have to make these, not only do you have to make that I guess, sale or relationship to the customer, but you also have to make it with the school because it's not like the school is just going to let you do all this stuff without, I'm assume without them knowing who the heck you are and like what's going on.[00:15:56] They start seeing all these black t-shirts rolling in the nice logos on it. Like what's happening here. I'm sure you have to try. Again, like a couple sides of the fence that the end user customer, and then the place that has the inventory, which is the school and in it, you have to build up those relationships on both sides.[00:16:14] The, and then the next challenge, which popped into my head when we were chatting earlier is just the, student, what I'll say is a paid internship. These student body employees, if you will, across the country how are you managing. Scaling that like, do you have to start having regional managers, people, once they do graduate school, they become an actual full season employee with you.[00:16:38] And now they're managers of that school. How does that ramp[00:16:41] Sam: up? Yeah. So we call those internships. We call them campus co-founders because we truly believe that they are kind of co-founding in some ways like franchising their campus, and they can either get an inflated hourly upwards, 15 to $20 an hour at a base, or they can essentially get like a percentage of revenue.[00:16:57] And then of course, they're going to see that increase the more years that they're actually operating. So when you have, like, for example, you had a kid who, a soft. Junior senior. By the time he was senior year, he made $20,000 in a single move out based on that revenue schedule. And then he wanted to continue working full time.[00:17:14] So I think you have the people that are naturally interested. But the challenge with that of course is when we were kind of under a million dollars in sales or a couple years ago, it was all right. Well, we want to bring these people on, but the beauty of this business is seasonal. And as a full-time student, it was.[00:17:28] But like now that we're graduating we're no longer in school. We have all this extra time and like, to what you alluded to, we're spending a lot more of that time actually selling universities and kind of university sales, as opposed to just, building up this marketing and then trying to do the move out and then do the move in and.[00:17:42] Taking a rest because we actually have school to do it. It's finding a job to do the rest of the year. So as we've been able to grow, I think the beauty of this is that the more people that have actually wanted to work full-time we've been able to give them full-time opportunities. So we heard a gift from Milan.[00:17:55] We hired a kid actually just from college of Charleston a couple of weeks ago. He came on full time and then we have two more in the pipeline, one from Richmond and one from Washington and Lee university that are currently seniors in. There if express interests and, and working post-graduation I think for the first time, I'm really excited that we actually will be able to give them full-time opportunities as just like you said, as regional managers and one region managing their region physically, but then also helping to then manage remote.[00:18:20] No another five or 10 that are schools under their domain.[00:18:23] Matt: Do you look at certain areas? So I'm south of Boston, there's a billion schools here. Like, do you look at areas that you want to go into that maybe you haven't found any organic interest from? Is that a thing? Or is it like, Hey, I'm just like this natural growth just works and it's way easier to manage or do you look at territories that you want to get into and, and how does.[00:18:44] Sam: A hundred percent. So I went to school in North Carolina, so natural expansion was Virginia, South Carolina. Saw a competitor that had a school in Texas at SMU. So that's how we went down to Texas rice and that's to me this past year, I just moved down to Texas to expand that. Texas and Florida. But I'm from New York, my business partners from Boston too.[00:19:01] So we definitely have our sights set on the Northeast. There's just actually a little more competition up there. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Mean being a fast follower is definitely a lot easier than trying to educate not only the school, but the customer on what a valet storage service is.[00:19:16] So I'd rather just go in where they've had a previous, service provider that's just bad. And then we can just go in and take over. But where are we? Found kind of those pockets is actually we started going to housing conferences. So conferences that have the residency, I, the operations people.[00:19:31] And that's actually where he met this one person from Pennsylvania, where by no means were we meaning to expand there. But we developed a great rapport. She loved what she heard and she was like, yeah, I'd love to sign an exclusive contract with y'all. That'll happen in the last couple of weeks, but now it's like, oh, well now that puts some eyes in Pennsylvania.[00:19:47] Maybe we need to expand there a little quicker and. Pennsylvania's got probably 20 schools that we could expand to. And once you have that kind of density, there's no reason not. Yeah.[00:19:55] Matt: I'd imagine and correct me if I'm wrong. Like I, I would imagine when you go into expand into a new territory, your biggest or potentially your biggest spend is going to be marketing and advertising.[00:20:05] Just to get the word out there. It's not like you're having to ship a bunch of product or these amazing boxes that we're going to talk about in a second. But is there any kind of like thing you have to ship in? And store your own storage stuff, something really meta, like, is there a thing you have to ship out there?[00:20:20] A box of stuff and people just have to.[00:20:23] Sam: Yeah. So yeah, I'll ship a box or two of our storage scholars boxes to the co-founders tell them to go out and buy a table, give them their corporate credit card to go do that. And that's going to have shirts, cups, stickers, banners, film backs, kind of that, that kind of marketing material.[00:20:37] But the beauty too, is that on any first year campus, whether we're talking about marketing materials or whether we're talking about. Storing kids' actual things is that, there's a really nice thing called self storage. That's usually five minutes from campus. So when we're not necessarily sure about a market, the numbers can look great, but it doesn't assign me.[00:20:54] People are going to use the service. So we'll use self storage almost exclusively for the first year. And then once you have that market proven, then you're going to go out and you're going to find an industrial warehouse lease. But that being said, it's also another challenge of the business because we might have.[00:21:06] 10 15,000 square feet from the four months of made August. But then all these kids move back in. You might have a couple of students that store longer. You might have some marketing materials, some extra boxes, but that's going to come down to a maximum, thousand square feet. Right. So then you're kind of downsizing either to self storage or coming up with a really creative lease with the landlord.[00:21:22] But that's a, that's definitely a, a tough aspect of the business too. It's finding that space.[00:21:27] Matt: Oh, when you raise a billion dollars, I hope it's not one of those. We work stories where you set out to be a coworking space, but you ended up being a real estate company. And then why the hell do you own all this property?[00:21:36] And you're like, oh, we're really a moving company. And then sheets are all imbalanced. Let's talk about, let's talk about marketing for a second. Toward the end of the show, a great marketing. I think I know the answer, but why did you focus on, how did you feel? How did you know that, that marketing's really going to work for something like this or branding and your logo and stuff is really going to work for something like this?[00:21:57] A competitive market.[00:21:59] Sam: Yeah, the way the business was started, as I printed out some flyers that I'd probably throw up out. If I looked at today, I'm there pretty embarrassing, but I went door to door. I saw all my freshmen, hallmates and freshman classmates, and they knock on the door and they say, come in.[00:22:13] I'm like, no, that's, I would knock on the door again to come in. And I'm like, no, I'm not who you think I am, but sure. I'll come in. So I, I definitely had some tough conversations at the beginning and got some raw feedback on what was what they were looking for and what they weren't looking for. But I think initially too, in terms of like a branding aspect after kind of doing that customer discovery was.[00:22:31] The best advice that I got from one of my entrepreneurship professors is there was a competitor on campus and I was like, oh, they're charging $14 a box. I'm going to charge 13. Oh, he's like, do not be the discount service, like always charge more and, but provide more too. Right. So I from, I wouldn't say day one, but from day two, it's like, okay.[00:22:49] Yes, we need to be out there. Be the premium service and service, the top level customer and give them the service that they, that they desire. And the whole black and white was really trying to be the. Premium futuristic, Uber black type experience, luxury experiences, as opposed to being, I don't know, like a green eco-friendly moving company.[00:23:07] We are. Absolutely. You can find that. I don't mean to say it like that, but I think sometimes there's, there's definitely certain colors that elicit certain emotions and I, I want it to be more of a sleek elite luxury brand.[00:23:17] Matt: Yeah. The do do when every time you're moving students, You always rocking the branded boxes or is it like one branded box on top and the rest of them are[00:23:26] Sam: brown?[00:23:27] No, absolutely. So not only does that give you the brand awareness, but actually, so we used to use obviously brown boxes, right. And we would buy these stickers and they put the sticker on top of the box. It also put the sticker on there, out of box item, their TV, their refrigerator, whatever. But in terms of like an inventory perspective, if you imagine you have a box and then you'd stack another box on top, And you have a sticker on the top.[00:23:49] Well, you can't see it. Right? So those boxes were also designed because you have their writing, their name, the order number, the item number on the top of the box. They're also writing it massively on the side of the box, actually in the storage facilities. They're lined up. Yeah. I see all their names very, very clearly.[00:24:04] So from just like an identification standpoint, that was the purpose of it. And then of course, yet when you walk around with black storage, collar shirts, white shirts, white shorts, and these big black boxes, and then you see them in the, in the dumpsters for two weeks after, and the recycling bins, after everyone leaves and comes back, it's like, it's great branding.[00:24:19] Matt: Yeah. Yeah. People wonder what the heck's going on. I want that, like, that looks easy. Speaking of looks easy. I'm looking at the. Archive a web archive.org site. And I'm looking back to August, 2018. Your tagline for the site back then was easy, effortless and economical live the scholars. How did you change that from a marketing perspective?[00:24:40] You started talking to customers, you chatted with them. They were like, no, we'll pay you a little bit more money. And you got rid of the word economical. How did that all play out? Changing that.[00:24:48] Sam: Yeah. I thought alliteration was more powerful than value at the time. So that's probably why I went with that.[00:24:53] But yeah, I it was, like I said, I, I want it to beat out the competition because also at the same time, I didn't, I wasn't confident. Like I knew it was confident in myself, but I'd never, I didn't want to over promise and under deliver. So to say, Hey, we're the best service we're better than the competition.[00:25:06] I'd never even moved to box before. It's like, that was kind of tough. So that was year one. And then once we, server. 64 students at wake forest university. I was like, all right, well, this went well. We made it happen. I touched every single box. I know exactly how this works. I shook probably half the kids hands and the parents hands that use this service.[00:25:22] All right. Now I'm confident we can go out there and start to spread what we're doing and do it in a, in a much better way and be able to charge that premium price tag, Sam,[00:25:30] Matt: this doesn't sound like it's your first rodeo. Who do you have? Have you ran a business before somebody, your dad, your parents, a great mentors.[00:25:38] You're just born with it. What is it?[00:25:40] Sam: So my parents are both public high school teachers in New York. I'm the youngest of three. My brother is a web developer, my sister's a and in fashion. So I, I didn't necessarily get it from them fully, but definitely the fiscal responsibility absolutely came from my parents, actually my grandfather mostly, and from, at a young age.[00:26:00] Kind of the quintessential story would be, and maybe two of them was that at five. I was like, Hey mom, dad, like, I want to have a lemonade stand. So great. Okay. So you're going to go out. You're going to buy the paper, the markers, the plastic cups and the, lemonade powder. And w we'll we'll lend you the money in the beginning, but you got to pass that back.[00:26:17] And to like be, $18 in debt at five years old, it's like, shit. Like I gotta make this happen. Right. So I'm standing out in the street and I'm flagging people down. And, and from that point on, even at age nine, I'm like, oh mom, like Frankie wants an Xbox for Christmas. Okay. Well, how are you going to get that for him?[00:26:33] Right. Well, it's like, I wasn't poor, but it just kind of given him. The fiscal responsibility at such a young age, what kind of drove me to, to start develop these skills very early on and start flipping ATVs cars and stuff like that in high school and selling candy out of my locker and middle school. I was always kind of hustling.[00:26:49] Matt: Are you, have you raised money? I don't think we, as we talked about this in the pre-interview raising money, organic bootstrap, I should say, or do you plan on raising money? What are the cards hold.[00:26:58] Sam: Yeah. Currently exclusively bootstrapped. Like I said, too excited for aside from a little PPP, but it, the, the business motto is structured such as, and the reason why I started this business was, Hey, I need to make money.[00:27:10] Like today. I need to pay for my school today. So how can I do that? And so kids would pay a $50 deposit, which they still do now. And that for me covered the initial cost of the boxes, the tape, the storage units, the trucks, and that's, what's been able to catapult. As far, I don't think we could grow to 150 schools next year without raising money, but that's not really the purpose or really the path right now.[00:27:33] Like I said, building deep in-depth relationships with the universities and the life cycle of a, of a university sales cycle is, is pretty it's pretty. Oh, it's more of a relationship driven business. So trying to figure that out along the way, and at this point where we've been able to bootstrap it and keep it going that way.[00:27:49] Matt: Sam chase and storage scholars, storage, scholars.com, Sam, anywhere else you want folks to go?[00:27:56] Sam: Yeah, definitely follow us on socials on on Instagram, on Facebook, LinkedIn, we are definitely trying to be a young company. So give us some rod feedback. If, if you're in that age, demographic 18 to 21, let us know what we're doing.[00:28:10] Right. Let's know what we're doing wrong. Love to hear from you, ★ Support this podcast ★

COLD OPEN WITH NYC SOUNDSCAPEFabian - NYC So what is it we are learning, what is the “there” that we're heading towards? Sam VO NARRATIONThat was Fabian and I sitting at Chelsea Piers, in New York City, where we met up about three months after Antarctica. This was us sitting and talking through memories, me digging in with more questions...Sam VO NARRATIONIt felt like a year ago, but last night was the vote, just 12 hours ago. By the time I crawled  into bed, it was really late. But it was a difficult night. The ship felt like it was in rough seas, and I spent most of the night listening to someone barf in the room next to me.[3:46] TAPE - Open frame Day after Dr. Karen Alexander bravely took the floor first.This is Purvi Gupta [7:43] TAPE - NYCOpens with an NYC soundscapeSam - Now I know I'm in complete sensory overload, much like Antarctica Fabian - Yeah, Rotheragate for me was such a defining momentYou know there plenty of people whose instinct to go with the majority rule, I didn't.My instinct, was, that if can't take all, can't take any. It was me who initiated the blind vote. It was me who goes upstairs and debates the fact that if a small number out of a whole doesn't want to go, then it is not right for women to go.And transformational change work doesn't happen with a textbook. It doesn't happen because you logically go A, B, C, D E, F, G. We dealt with the anger that flowed from that, but the next morning, I wish we had fully recorded what happened. You may be the only person who recorded what actually happened.Sam -  The Open Frame discussion?Fabian - That was transformationalSam - I've got itFabian - The poems, the poetry, the ...Sam - I've got it allFabian - See that is a transformational moment. No matter how much you didn't like it. You didn't like the anger, or the uncertainty. Guess what, that's where transformation change occurs. It doesn't happen, the clean, the tight, the controlled moments. It happens when you are forced to confront: I contributed to that, it was my anger, I didn't have to act that way….Sam - Yup Sam VO NARRATIONThe microphone was passed around the room, and I can only share a selection of everything that was said here…TAPE - SHORT SELECTSGaia  Fern [9:19] SamVO NARRATIONAt the end of the session, Dr Helen Corney read something she wrote on the ship.[12:05] Zodiac Landing through icebergs[14:06] Sam Tape - Whiskey IceSam VO NARRATIONAnd then, like the day could handle another twist, the Captain and Greg convened a meeting in the common room.  SFX - crowd room toneScene TAPE - Greg and Captain come and tell us we are going[14:52] Greg -  Eye oi oi oi. A heady 24 hours we've had.[19:15] Captain -It's a once in a lifetime. Even for us, I mean this is very unusual. Because usually the conditions down here are not favourable, let's say, the ice conditions, are always hard. [22:06] Laugh Therapy[24:50]  Rothera Landing [29:05] - New York City soundscape begins. Sam and Fabian go back to New York...Sam - So while I went in to make a 20 minute story, and it turned into a three and a hour epic. And I did this from my kitchen table, off my hard drive, with zero dollars funding, and you know, lots of good will. Fabian - But listening was never enough for you. Listening was never enough. You started the first podcast by putting yourself in the story. That's where it started. You're not a bystander. It's a myth for you. You're in boots and all.   [36:09] - Greg Um, I've left Antarctica a lot of times. And I've found in that I'll never know what I'll feel like when I take the first walk in the streets of Ushuaia. It becomes a bit of a mystery. And it changes from time to time.  [37:21] SAM  - Closing NarrationAt the end of a cinema verite documentary, there's often no obvious conclusion drawn--it was a moment in time, and that moment ended, and thus, so did the film. And while I love this for film, for a podcast, I still feel like I need to wrap, with some music...  …My instinct told me that GOING would put me inside a story that would grow and unfold, in real time. ...It's all brought me to a quiet place inside.Specifically, it brought me back to Antarctica. At a time when it felt like everything around me was breaking, I had that memory, that experience, to draw from.And at some point, after a bunch more reflection, I landed on this new, and final conclusion, that I want to share with you.What that was, and what this is, are the same, when you boil it down. It's a transformational learning experience. 

This conversation covers: Mirage's role as an API mocking library, the value that it offers for developers, and who can benefit from using it. How Mirage empowers front end developers to create production-ready UIs as quickly as possible. How Mirage evolved into an API mocking library  How Mirage differs from JSON Server  Sam's relationship to Mirage, and how it fits in with his business. Sam also talks about open source business models, and whether Mirage could work as a SaaS offering. One interesting use case for Mirage, which involves demoing software and driving sales. Links Mirage Sam's teaching site Follow Sam on Twitter Subscribe to Sam's YouTube Channel TranscriptEmily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to the Business of Cloud Native. My name is Emily, I'm your host, and today I'm chatting with Sam Selikoff. Thank you so much for joining us, Sam.Sam: Thanks for having me.Emily: Yeah. So, today, we're going to do something a little bit different, and we're going to talk about positioning for open source projects. A lot of people talk about positioning for companies, which is also really important. And they don't always think about how positioning is important for open source. Open source maintainers often don't like to talk about marketing because you're not selling anything. But you are asking people to give you their time which, at least for some people, is actually more valuable than their money. And that means you have to make a compelling case for why it's worth it to contribute to your project, and also why they should use it, why they should care about it? So, anyway, we're going to talk with Sam, about Mirage. But first, I should let you introduce yourself. Sam, thank you so much for joining me, and can you introduce yourself a little bit?Sam: Sure. My name is Sam Selikoff. These days, I spend most of my time teaching people how to code in the form of videos on my YouTube channel, and my website, embermap.com. Most of it is front end web development focused. So, we focus on JavaScript. I have a business partner who also works with me. And then we also do custom app development, you know, some consulting throughout the year.Emily: Cool. And then tell me a little bit about Mirage.Sam: Yeah, so Mirage is the biggest open source project I've been a part of since falling into web development, I'd say about eight years ago, I got into open source pretty early on in programming, kind of what made me fall in love with web development and JavaScript. So, I was starting to help out and just get involved with existing projects and things that I was using. Eventually, I made my way to TED Talks, the conference company where I was a front end developer, and that's actually where I met my business partner, Ryan. And we were using Ember.js, which is a JavaScript framework, and we had lots of different apps at TED that were helping with various parts of publishing talks, and running conferences, and all that stuff. And we were seeing some common setup code that we were using across all these apps to help us test them, and that's where Mirage came from. There was another project called Pretender, which helped you mock out servers so that you could test your front end against different server states. And we first wrapped that with something called Pretenderify, and then it grew in complexity. So, I was working on it on my learning Wednesdays, renamed it to Mirage, and then I've been working on it basically ever since. And then, the other big step, I guess, in the history is that originally was an Ember only project, and then last year, we worked on generalizing it so that it can be used by React developers, React Native developers, Vue developers, so now it's just a general-purpose JavaScript API mocking library.Emily: So, we would say that the position is an API mocking library. And—does that sound right?Sam: Yeah. If I had to say what it is, I would say it's a mocking library that helps front end developers mock out backend API's so that they can develop and test the user interfaces without having to rely on back end services.Emily: Why does that matter?Sam: It matters because back end services can be very complicated, there can be multiple back end services that need to run in order to support a UI, and if you're a front end developer, and you just want to make a change and see what the shopping cart looks like when it's empty. What does the shopping cart look like when there's one item? What does it look like when there's 100 items, and we have to have multiple pages? All three of those states correspond to different data in some back end service, usually in a database. And so, for a front end developer, or anyone working on the user interface, really, it can be time-consuming and complex to put that actual server in that state that they need to help them develop the UI. That can involve anything from running, like, a Rails server on their computer to getting other API's that other teams manage into the state they need to develop the UI. So, Mirage lets them mock that out and basically have a fake server that they control and they can put into any state they need. So, it's like a simplified version of back end services that the front end developer can control to help them develop and test the UI.Emily: And when you first started Mirage, did you think of it as an API mocking library?Sam: Not exactly. We used it mostly because of testing. So, in a test, it's usually a best practice to not have your test rely on an actual network. You want to be able to run your test suite of your user interface anywhere, let's say on an airplane or something like that. So, if your user interface relies on live back end services, that's usually where you would bring in a mocking library. And then you would say, okay, when the user visits amazon.com/cart, normally, it would go try to fetch the items in your cart from a real server, but in the test, we're going to say, “Oh, when my app does that, let's just respond with zero items. And then in this next test, when my app does that, let's respond with three items.” So, that's the motivation originally, is in a testing environment, giving the UI developer control over that. And then what happened was that it was so useful, we started using it in development as well, just to help during normal times, just because it was faster than working with the real back end services.Emily: Do you think there are any other projects that do something similar?Sam: Yeah, for sure. I think the most popular one is called JSON Server, which is a popular open source library that lets a front end developer put some data in a file, and then you point JSON Server to it, and then it just gives you an instant mock server you can use to help develop your app.Emily: So, what's the difference between Mirage and JSON Server?Sam: The difference is that JSON Server is made—it's really optimized for giving you a development—kind of a fake server as fast as possible, but it comes with a certain format that it gives you the data in. So, what ends up happening is that it can help you get feedback and build your UI faster, but eventually, you're going to need to point your app at a real API server, whatever you planning on using in production. And so the way JSON Server works might not correspond—in fact, often doesn't correspond with your actual API. So, Mirage fills that gap because Mirage is designed to be able to faithfully reproduce any production API; there's ways to customize how the data comes back so that it matches so that as you're developing your actual user interface against Mirage, you can have confidence that it'll work once you switch over to production.Emily: Is Mirage slower than other options?Sam: Not performance-wise because they're all JavaScript code that runs in the browser, but JSON Server is really optimized for just getting started as fast as possible because it comes with all of those pre-baked conventions about how the data is going to be moving back and forth. So, with Mirage—it can be faster, it depends—but with Mirage, you need to learn a little bit more in order to understand how to faithfully reproduce your production API. But I think it's faster because in the long run, if you're writing code against a mock server that doesn't match the interface of your production API, then you're just going to be having to change that application code that you're writing.Emily: How much do you talk to other people in the Mirage community, and talk about how they're actually using it?Sam: I felt more in touch with the users when it was an Ember project only because Ember is a more niche-type community. Whereas now, there's folks using it in React and Vue, like I was saying, and Angular. And so, we get issues almost every day on the project. It's not like a mega-popular project, but it does have enough people using it that people will ask questions, or open an issue almost every single day. And so I try to stay in touch with the users through that, basically. And then when I went to conferences—you know, before 2020—I would love to talk with people about it, or people would just bring it up. That's kind of how a lot of people know me on the internet. So, I would say that I do it in kind of a passive way. I haven't actively gone out to talk to them, partly because it's an open source project so it doesn't contribute to our revenue. We have some ideas for how that might happen one day, but as of right now, we can't justify doing proper product development on it in the sense of spending time doing customer interviews and stuff because it's a free project right now.Emily: That is my next question, which is, how does it fit in with your business in the larger sense? You know, how you put food on the table? And what are your goals for the project?Sam: A good question. I mean, it's really aligned with our overall mission of, of everything that we do because me and my business partner, Ryan, we really want to just help people get better at UI development, we want it to be easier, we want to help empower more people to do it because we think it's powerful tool in the world, and it's just too hard right now; there's so many things that are hard about it. So, that goes back to our consulting and our teaching; mainly our teaching. That's our main mission. And then Mirage is really—the purpose of Mirage is to enable front end developers to do more kind of with less, so they don't have to run a Docker container or get an SQL database up just to change some CSS for a given server state. So, it fits into that mission. I've been doing open source long enough to know the pattern, and it happens over and over again, where people work on something, it gets popular enough that they start opening issues, and it becomes a maintenance burden for the maintainers, and then they try to stay up late closing issues, they get burned out, and then the project kind of rots. So, that's something that happens a lot in open source. And so, over the last five years or so of working on Mirage, I've been more involved, or sometimes step back if I need to spend more time on other things, but I'm really interested in making it sustainable, and I know some people in the open source community who have made their projects sustainable financially, other with a pro plan, or support plan, or different related services. So, if we could snap our fingers, that would be what would happen, and that's what we're working on now.Emily: Which one of those open source business models do you think is most appropriate?Sam: At this point, we basically are trying to not guess that answer because we think the way to find out which one it is, is to get a critical mass of users and listen to what they're saying. So, on our podcast, we interviewed Mike Perham from Sidekick, who runs Sidekiq and Sidekiq Pro in the Rails community for about 10 years, and he makes really good money. Sidekiq Pro came about because the enterprise customers of Sidekiq were asking for more robust job servers and all this kind of stuff, so there was a natural path for him to making a pro version that he could sell to enterprise clients. And so that's worked out really well for him, and the rest of the community gets to use the base version for free. And I love that because I do love this zero-cost to entry to open source. And then my other friend, Adam Wathan who works on Tailwind, he's made money to help Tailwind be sustainable through education and courses, and then more recently, a project called Tailwind UI, which is pre-built UI components with Tailwind. And that, again, came about from people asking for that after he was working on Tailwind. So, I think the best way to do it is to get that critical mass of users to the point where you know what they're asking for, you hear over and over again, and then it makes sense to go forward with that.Emily: There's also a third option, which is a cloud service, and I'm just curious—like a complete SaaS offering—have you ever considered that?Sam: Absolutely. There's a really cool opportunity there for Mirage because your Mirage server usually lives alongside your front end code so that when every individual front end developer pulls the project down, starts working on it locally, they're running their own Mirage server. But some of the things that people have done organically with Mirage is, create a certain configuration of a server state—let's say for a demo—so let's say they create a shopping cart, or let's say they're working on a financial piece of software, and they need to show what it looks like with three clients and four contracts, and here are the products that we sold and how much money they are. People will make up a Mirage scenario with that specific set of data that their salespeople take and use on sales calls. And that way, again, the user interface looks fully realistic, it's a fully working UI that is talking to Mirage, but now you don't have to worry about the actual back end servers going down or anything like that. And so, we've had this thought of a hosted Mirage, basically like a Mirage cloud, where even non-technical people could tweak the data there, and then again, they don't have to get involved with ops people or anything like that. And that could be really powerful. So, there's a ton of ideas there. I think our hesitation with our company, Embermap, it's worked to some extent, but it's not grown to the point where it can sustain us, and so that's partly because of the market issue, Ember being a little smaller. So, we're nervous to jump into any particular solution before we feel there's a proven market need for it. And so that's why, even though we have a lot of these fun ideas that I think could really work out, we first want to wait until we get that critical mass, the audience size that we'd feel comfortable could sustain a business.Emily: How many people is that? What is the audience size?Sam: That's a tough question. Let's say Mirage cloud was the goal. I think instead of waiting to a certain point, and then trying to build Mirage cloud, we would do a few things in the interim that would be little experiments and lower risk. So, I think the first thing would be, let's say, a Mirage course. And if we can sell a course on Mirage—or even we make a free Mirage course—that gets enough attention, that would tell us that there is enough of a need there, that the positioning resonates, that people are seeing it's a valuable thing, and that would tell us, okay, let's try the next thing. So, we've been trying to do that. I make some YouTube videos over this last year, and I've been tweeting more about it and the work we've been doing, and so all of those are little experiments that I'm trying to pay attention to what resonates. Again, we have users who really love Mirage, and it's changed their workflow, but it's not at the point where I feel like it's a slam dunk and it makes sense to go on the next phase. So, I think there's been some frictions with Mirage, as we've brought it out to the wider JavaScript community. So, we have some things we want to tweak, and then ship a 1.0, and then I think maybe a 10 video course, would be a good next step, and just see the response to that, and basically take it from there.Emily: Yeah. It's always interesting to think like, how will that you have reached the critical mass?Sam: Yeah, I mean—Emily: Hard. Sam: It's really hard. And there's other strategies. I mean, a lot of businesses just have an idea and go try it out. There's this book I read, called Nail It and Scale It, and they talked about finding a problem. And we've have had some users of Mirage who use it at big, bigger companies, and it's really a big part of their workflow. And we've thought about, “Hey, what if we were to build something for them that we could generalize?” They actually have a need for something like a Mirage cloud because every time they develop a feature, they have to sit down with their product people, and their front end developer will basically run through all these different Mirage scenarios to show them how the feature works in every case, and they would love to be able to just send a link to a hosted version where they could do that. So, we've thought about building that kind of thing. But again, it's just a big risk. And then the market risk is there. So, what I've seen, I feel like, working in the past few years with a small circle of small business people and open source that I hang out with is this audience-first approach. So, it's like, if you're delivering a lot of value in the form of open source, and education, and talks, and you build an audience that believes what you have to say, and likes your opinion on things, likes your point of view, and again, resonates with the value of your work, then it becomes more and more obvious. You have a lot of people giving you feedback, you start seeing the same thing over and over. And that's just what we do with developing Mirage itself. We know a lot of what we work on next is driven by the same issues that come up, the same problems that come up in the issues, over and over again. So, I think it is hard to know, but it's one of those lukewarm things. And basically, right now, it feels too early. You know?Emily: And do you feel like, when you say to somebody, let's say, somebody who isn't involved with Mirage at the moment, maybe you're at a developer meetup or something, and you say, “I created Mirage. It's an API mocking library.” Do you have an aha moment? Are they like, “Oh, yeah. I know what that is. I know why you would use that.”Sam: Mm-hm. Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. There is a form of position I feel like, sometimes, really resonates well with people, which is like, “Don't get blocked by your back end developers.” So, if you're a front end developer, and the API is not ready, you can still build your app, including all the dynamic parts of it which would normally require a real server to be running. So, you're the front end developer, and you're trying to wire up the interface, and what happens when you click save on a cart, and it saves it in the back end, and then you show a success message. But your API is not ready, and you're working with another team that's working on the API, so you're kind of frustrated because you're stuck and you feel like you can't do anything, well, that's where Mirage can come in because you don't have to wait on them at all. You can just build it out yourself with Mirage. It's much simpler because it abstracts away all the complexity of a real server enough that you can actually build your UI against this kind of faithful reproduction of the back end. So, people really like that. And then people really like the testing use cases as well. They get confused about the best way to test user interfaces in this new distributed world we're living in where you're maybe working on a React app, and the back end is a separate API that's also serving up iPhone clients and things like that. So, there's really multiple apps involved with running a website like amazon.com. So, the question is, how do you test the front end? And Mirage is a great answer for that as well. And that's where it originally came from, so.Emily: Yeah. I can definitely see the positioning is sort of like a way for front end developers to decrease their dependence on their back end colleagues.Sam: Yeah, exactly. It's hard because there's a lot that it helps you with. And the people who use Mirage the most and have used it the most, it's really transformed their workflow because it lets the front end developer just move so much faster. So, it's really just, like, the fastest way to build a front end. That's really what the whole point of—every change we make to the library, every decision that went into it, it's how to empower a front end developer to build a production-ready user interface as fast as possible. And that includes accounting for all these different server states that are usually a pain in the butt to get.Emily: I'm just taking notes. I mean, that that actually sounded really powerful. Like, “Mirage lets front end developers work as fast as possible,” basically. It's fairly high level, but ultimately, that is a pretty compelling value statement.Sam: Yeah. And I believe it to be true, too. And I mean, that's how—I mean, I've been working on apps recently, and I still use Mirage because it's just faster than using a real server because it's right there in your code. It's right alongside your front end code, so you don't have to switch over to another process running, or open up a browser and see it; it's all right there. If you want to switch from being an admin to being a user, it's like you just uncomment a line alongside the code that you're already writing. So, I truly believe it is the best way to build a user interface. I think the positioning question is interesting because that is high-level. Sometimes developers in open source, they just want to know what it is, so there are some people who would see, “Just tell me what it is.” “It's an API mocking library.” “Okay, got it.” And that's what they want to know. “And what makes it different from other API mocking libraries?” Okay, we can talk about that. But then there's other people I think, who could stand to benefit from it, and if they saw, “Mirage is an API mocking library,” they're going to be like, “I don't really need that.” But then they go back to their job, and they have to work on their app, and they find themselves spinning up a Docker container, going to auth0 to sign in just so they can run their app in an authenticated state, and it's like, Mirage would actually be perfect for this. You could just mock all that stuff out in Mirage once, all your front end developers could use it. And now anytime you want to just work on your app in an auth state, it's just right there in Mirage, you don't have to deal with any of the complexities of the production services.Emily: Yeah. I mean, I also like the idea of sort of the fastest way to build a front end app.Sam: Yeah.Emily: Or to build a UI. The fastest way to build a UI.Sam: Yeah. That is, that's nice. I mean, it's interesting. It's a pretty interesting thing to say, and it's pretty compelling, and it's like, if you can back it up, that's a pretty strong claim.Emily: Yeah. And I mean, one of the things that I also talk to clients about—so I work with all technical founders, usually, and we're often really focused on features, all the cool features, but—you don't have to ignore the features, but you sort of use them to prove that the thing that you're talking about, that the value you say you provide is not BS. But you still want to connect the dots. Like you were saying, sometimes even the most technical person is like, “Oh, a mocking library. But I don't need that.” They're not going to necessarily connect the dots that, like, “Oh, that's going to make my workflow way simpler.” Sam: Right.Emily: Does everybody know what a mocking library is? Like, everybody who needs one?Sam: Mm, depends. If you're a front end developer. I mean, these days, people are becoming more and more specialized, so there's some front end developers who don't even deal with the data fetching side of an app at all. They're working on a part of the app that already has the data, and they're just working on maybe styling, layout, things like that, but they're never writing code or refactoring code that actually interacts with the server. And then even if you are doing that, you might not be writing tests. So, a lot of people just do the lowest friction thing, which is, just point their local UI at whatever server they can. Maybe their company has a staging server or maybe they run one locally in development and they just build it like that. But again, that's the lowest friction, but it's slow because now you're running a Rails server. If you want to change the data, you have to know how to do it in Rails, and you have to run different commands. And then it comes to testing, it's really hard, too. So, I think most people would know, if you were to say, “Yeah, it mocks out the API.” Most people would know that. But people might have different conceptions of what that means. So, there are some approaches to mocking—or stubbing, or faking, there's some technical difference between those terms, but for the purpose of this conversation, it's just faking out that functionality—there's some people who would hear that and say, “Oh, okay, I get it. A function that my code calls when it normally goes to the server, I'm going to replace it with a different function that returns this fake data.” But Mirage works differently because it operates at the boundary of the app. So, when you mock your API with Mirage, you don't have to change anything about your application because it intercepts the network request before it goes to the server. So, that's another big benefit of Mirage, that Mirage has over other solutions for mocking out network functionality is that your application code stays exactly the same. And that's an important point because the whole goal with Mirage is to be the fastest way to build a production-ready user interface. And by production-ready, I mean an interface that can be plugged into your production API and you'll have confidence that it works. So, that boundary thing is another important point of Mirage. So, that would maybe be the one thing that people could mean different things when they say ‘mocking.' But by and large, I would say most front end developers would understand if you said ‘API mocking,' what they mean.Emily: And do you think they generally are also able to figure out what that's used for, why they should care?Sam: Yeah, that's the thing is that that's where I think the real opportunity is because I think, if you were to say ‘API mocking,' people are going to immediately go to testing because that's the kind of environment where you would want to mock the API so you have control over it. But people who haven't used Mirage or something like Mirage, don't realize how powerful it can be, to mock it just during your normal development flow. So, again, once people use it and get it, they use Mirage for everything; it's just part of their workflow. I just start up my UI, I'm running Mirage in a specific scenario, and if I need to see the UI in a different state, I just changed my Mirage scenario, or put some new data in there, or empty out the database there. And so it totally affects your whole workflow because now you're just disconnected from the back end services. So, I think a lot of people aren't doing that. They are just stuck—you know, they're just used to the hassle of getting these three services up and running just so that they can run their UI, and it's a pain in the butt. I mean, I was just talking to someone on another podcast, and he was saying it's the same thing. And it's really hard when they onboard new people because they have to get them set up with all these auth keys just so they can run the front end, even though they don't really care about the auth setup, they just want to start working on this page. So, again, the companies that have used Mirage and adopted it don't have any of those problems because the Mirage server is right there with the user interface, and they don't have to worry about it. So, I think that is a big gap that we could probably do a lot better job of closing with information on the homepage, or examples, or something like that.Emily: So, Mirage also helps new hires get up to speed a lot faster, or get productive, I should say?Sam: So, yeah. If you were hired by Facebook, and you're a front end developer, and your first task is to update the way the colors look on the home feed, to get that running on your computer so you can make changes and see how it looks in the code, at many companies—probably most companies—it's going to involve a lot of moving pieces because you have this React app on the front end, but it has to fetch data from somewhere so you can see how it works. Maybe they have a server that is just used for development that the person can point to. But again, if you have this shared hosted server, you only get what's on there; maybe you don't have an easy way to change what data it gives you. So, usually, front end developers need to see a dynamic user interface in all these different states. But if you're using a shared server, you don't get all those different states. But it's easier to set up because it's already set up. So, the alternative is to say, “All right, Sam, you're new here. Let's get you set up so that you can run a copy of Facebook locally.” So, that usually involves a ton of steps. I mean, I've seen that take, like, a week just to get all the pieces that are required to run the back end up so that you can actually power your front end. So, yeah, companies definitely, definitely have a problem with this. They have a problem with shared staging servers, I've talked to tons of people over the years who hate their staging servers, the back end teams, the ops teams hate them because everyone's always trying to change it for the salespeople to go take demo calls or for people to test. And so basically a shared server like that is just a nightmare because it's basically another production server to maintain that your internal team is trying to use and people want it to do different things. So, that's why Mirage is nice because it's just local to the code, and every front end developer can just tweak it in exactly the way they need for what they're doing at that time. So, I think that's a big opportunity as well.Emily: One of the most interesting things, I think, about this conversation is that you've touched on this idea of salespeople doing demos, and I really like that because it's so different. It's such a different use case.Sam: Yeah. We had a thought about that, actually because we were talking to a handful of companies—did interviews with them, actually, a couple years ago—and we're like, this could be a cool product. And it's like, just the easiest way to show off your software. And again, we've even done consulting for companies that have had basically another server, just for the purposes of a demo. And again, it's just a pain in the butt because it's another production server to manage, you have to reset the database after each call you do, and with Mirage is not like that; it just restarts with the app. It's just heavier, it's a real server to manage, where again if you just need to show off the UI, you can do it with Mirage. So, we thought about doing that. It's an interesting use case, for sure.Emily: I think it's a really good illustration of how you can take the same technology, and reposition it, basically, to do something totally different, have a totally different set of value proposition. The people who would be actually benefiting from its use would be totally different. I mean, you have salespeople versus front end developers.Sam: Yep. We've thought about that. What would that look like to market to those people? And maybe one way you could do it would be, you know, the salespeople get frustrated because they want to just change the numbers in this part of the app on the spreadsheet summary because they know it's going to help them communicate the value to the people that they're talking to, but now they have to go and ask some back end developer or someone on the ops team, “Hey, can you change this database column so that my demo works better?” What if they had a Mirage-powered demo and they could tweak the Mirage data, maybe in some interface themselves, without having to involve anybody. And that's pretty compelling because Mirage, again, is designed to work with any API. So, no matter what your tech stack is on the back end, Mirage works for the front end team. And so now the back end team can do all their stuff, they can be switching from Rails to Elixir, they can be switching to Go or microservice architecture, and they have all this stuff going on, so they're the only ones who really know how to actually get this number from 100 to 200 in the system. Like, it's complicated. And so that's, again, a benefit of just having Mirage because, on the sales calls, the people are just wanting to show what it looks like when the data is a certain way. So, yeah, that was definitely a use case that we didn't anticipate at all.Emily: Yeah. And even you could have five salespeople trying to do calls at the same time and—Sam: Exactly.Emily: Wanting to have different data reflected, and I'm sure that's just like—Sam: A nightmare. I mean, people have told us just, it's the worst. Basically, the shared staging server is a—yeah, it's a huge problem for a lot of teams.Emily: It's so interesting. Well, anyway, taking us back from the rabbit hole, although it—I mean, it really is interesting, and just fascinating how you could change this to be something that's targeted at that totally different market.Sam: Right.Emily: To wrap up. I mean, I was thinking about how you're saying that the fastest way to build a production-ready UI, that possibly is the most powerful thing I think you've said.Sam: Yeah. We actually—I think that's how we had it when we first did the redesign of the site. And it was like, I don't know if that stuck in the sense of, what does production-ready mean? “Oh, I'm already writing production-ready code.” But then it's like, you have to—like you said, connect the dots and explain how you're not writing production-ready code unless the way you're mocking your API is matching your production API, so we kind of switched it to what it says now, which is, “Build complete front end features, even if your API doesn't exist.” Which basically came from the mouth of someone who was using it, and when they had their aha moment that was what they were saying. I've been thinking if we get to the 1.0 launch, I think I would want to go back to something like that because I do think it's compelling. So, “It's the fastest way to develop a UI, test it, and then share a working demo of it,” because that's is really the motivation for the library. So, yeah, it might be interesting to think about doubling down on that as the unique value proposition.Emily: Yeah. I'm curious what your immediate plans are.Sam: So, we've been working on this REPL playground area of the site where people can learn Mirage and see examples, and we can share them and stuff. So, that will hopefully—you'll see a lot of that kind of thing in the JavaScript community. If you go to Svelte, which is another front end framework, you can create little sandboxes and play around with Svelte and learn it. So, it's a really good way to learn things and just see how it works quickly right in the browser without having to install anything. So, we're about wrapping that up. And then I think it'll just be a matter of carving out the time to go through some of the issues and bugs that people have found, and getting it to a point where we feel good about slapping a 1.0 on it. At which point, we can take a look at all the feature requests and all the issues that people have run into and figure out okay, where do we want to focus our time? Again, considering, like, is there a story here where we can make it sustainable, and hopefully, dedicate more of our time to it? Because that's really, again, I think it's the biggest impact work I've done in my career so far, but it's just, sustainability in open source is tough. So, it's a matter of not jumping too early on any particular idea for how to sustain it and monetize it: if it's a pro version, if it's a support plan, people have asked for all these things, but not maybe in the strongest numbers that would make me feel comfortable diving in on that. But I do believe that it can work because I believe it's a really good idea and I know a lot of companies have gotten a lot of value from it. So, that's what our short term plan is.Emily: Well, fabulous. Thanks so much for talking about Mirage. This has been really interesting.Sam: Yeah, thanks a lot for having me, and I appreciate your input. It was fun to revisit the positioning stuff. It's been a while, so it's always good to be thinking about that.Emily: All right. I have one last question for you, which is what is an engineering tool you can't live without?Sam: These days, it's got to be Tailwind. It's a styling framework. And it's just really excellent. So, I would not want to work on a site without it because it would just be painful. So, [laugh] I love Tailwind. Yeah, it's a really good library.Emily: All right, cool. Well, thank you so much. And—oh, what—the very last thing it should be, how can listeners find you, follow you, keep up with you?Sam: Yeah, best place is Twitter, at @samselikoff. And I'm also making YouTube videos more and more these days: youtube.com/samselikoff. So, those would be the places to go.Emily: Right. Excellent.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier—that's O-M-I-E-R—or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Andrew Langberg is a nature boy and farming, living on the south shore of Lake Superior. To offer your own advice, call Zak @ 844-935-BEST TRANSCRIPT: ZAK: It's not your worst nightmare. But it's a bad one. You leave the house and think to yourself. Uh oh, did I leave the oven on? Did I lock the front-door? Did I set the alarm? Did I leave my freezer open? Well today, advice hotline caller, Andrew Langberg, has a strategy for us to remember to do the things we gotta do. ANDREW: The best way to remember that you've done the thing is, every time you turn the coffee pot off or lock the door, do a little dance or a little twirl or something and that way later in the day when you're trying to remember if you locked the door, you'll remember the silly dance you did and you won't have to worry. Yup. That's it. ZAK: I want to hear your advice. Give me a call at 844-935-BEST. A few months ago, Andrew's brother called the hotline and left a piece of advice that might be the most talked about item on the show yet. SAM: So, the idea is when you load...if you have a dishwasher, when you load the silverware tray. After each meal when you're putting your silverware in, sort it in sections so the forks go one side, spoons in the center, knives on the right. That way when you're unloading the dishwasher, you can be more efficient when you're putting them away in the drawer organizer, instead of making the unloading the dishwasher chore an even longer and more arduous process. ZAK: Thank you to all the Langbergs for helping us through the delightful minutiae of everyday life.

 Discover ways on how to increase your sales through Sam's Minimal Viable Offer formula Learn how to maximize your product or service's potential by giving the right offer to your clients Recognize the mistakes in your marketing strategy and product offer and learn how to fix them Resources/Links: PreSell Your Product or Service For Profit Before Finishing The Offer With The M.V.O & M.V.F Formula To Finally Create A Profitable Coaching / Consulting Biz That Pays You Daily!​​: Check out http://www.1fb.me/samsgift Summary Have you ever felt hopeless about getting a fully booked calendar for your business? Are you struggling to get high ticket sales? Sam Bell is known as the Social Ads Engineer. He has served coaches, consultants, and service providers by helping them achieve high ticket sales and fully booked appointments in their calendars. He helps them get consistent clients through his own philosophy called the minimal viable offer formula. In this episode, Sam shares his insights on how to increase you and your service or product's potential by giving the right offer to your client's needs. Check out these episode highlights: 1:17 -- Sam's ideal client: “So, I serve coaches, consultants, and service providers who sell high ticket products and services, generally $1,000 or more. And generally, better done either through digital products or over the phone.” 01:37 -- Problem Sam helps solve: “So, the number one problem that we solve is helping them get qualified, booked appointments on their calendars, or high-ticket sales for their digital products consistently.” 02:16 -- Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Sam: “So, the biggest thing is that most clients that we work with experienced what we call rollercoaster income because they usually fall into one or two scenarios. Generally, they're out on the speaking circuit and they're depending upon referrals, or joint ventures to get clients. So, they don't have consistency in terms of income. So, it's like this one month, down one month. And that's because they don't actually have a pipeline built to acquire clients on a consistent basis. So that's like one of the number one symptoms that they experienced.” 03:33 -- Common mistakes that people make before they find Sam's solution: “So, one of the mistakes that most people make is they, a lot of times people think that they have a traffic problem. They're like, "Well, I need more traffic, you know, I need more leads," and that's actually not really the issue. The biggest issue is that they have a great product, they have a great service that they offer to the world, but they do not know or understand how to properly package that offer and that services.” 05:02 -- Sam's Valuable Free Action (VFA): “Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the things that I would highly recommend is people take time to really refine their offer. So, I have this philosophy called the minimal viable offer formula. And basically, what you want to do is put together a key offer and put it into the marketplace. And you don't want to spend a lot of time developing it, on trying to perfect it.” 06:27 -- Sam's Valuable Free Resource (VFR): PreSell Your Product or Service For Profit Before Finishing The Offer With The M.V.O & M.V.F Formula To Finally Create A Profitable Coaching / Consulting Biz That Pays You Daily!​​: Check out http://www.1fb.me/samsgift 07:18 -- Q: Why do I do this? A: And the reason that I do this is because I found is though that there are a lot of peopl...

 Discover ways on how to increase your sales through Sam’s Minimal Viable Offer formula Learn how to maximize your product or service’s potential by giving the right offer to your clients Recognize the mistakes in your marketing strategy and product offer and learn how to fix them Resources/Links: PreSell Your Product or Service For Profit Before Finishing The Offer With The M.V.O & M.V.F Formula To Finally Create A Profitable Coaching / Consulting Biz That Pays You Daily!​​: Check out http://www.1fb.me/samsgift Summary Have you ever felt hopeless about getting a fully booked calendar for your business? Are you struggling to get high ticket sales? Sam Bell is known as the Social Ads Engineer. He has served coaches, consultants, and service providers by helping them achieve high ticket sales and fully booked appointments in their calendars. He helps them get consistent clients through his own philosophy called the minimal viable offer formula. In this episode, Sam shares his insights on how to increase you and your service or product’s potential by giving the right offer to your client’s needs. Check out these episode highlights: 1:17 -- Sam’s ideal client: “So, I serve coaches, consultants, and service providers who sell high ticket products and services, generally $1,000 or more. And generally, better done either through digital products or over the phone.” 01:37 -- Problem Sam helps solve: “So, the number one problem that we solve is helping them get qualified, booked appointments on their calendars, or high-ticket sales for their digital products consistently.” 02:16 -- Typical symptoms that clients do before reaching out to Sam: “So, the biggest thing is that most clients that we work with experienced what we call rollercoaster income because they usually fall into one or two scenarios. Generally, they're out on the speaking circuit and they're depending upon referrals, or joint ventures to get clients. So, they don't have consistency in terms of income. So, it's like this one month, down one month. And that's because they don't actually have a pipeline built to acquire clients on a consistent basis. So that's like one of the number one symptoms that they experienced.” 03:33 -- Common mistakes that people make before they find Sam’s solution: “So, one of the mistakes that most people make is they, a lot of times people think that they have a traffic problem. They're like, "Well, I need more traffic, you know, I need more leads," and that's actually not really the issue. The biggest issue is that they have a great product, they have a great service that they offer to the world, but they do not know or understand how to properly package that offer and that services.” 05:02 -- Sam’s Valuable Free Action (VFA): “Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the things that I would highly recommend is people take time to really refine their offer. So, I have this philosophy called the minimal viable offer formula. And basically, what you want to do is put together a key offer and put it into the marketplace. And you don't want to spend a lot of time developing it, on trying to perfect it.” 06:27 -- Sam’s Valuable Free Resource (VFR): PreSell Your Product or Service For Profit Before Finishing The Offer With The M.V.O & M.V.F Formula To Finally Create A Profitable Coaching / Consulting Biz That Pays You Daily!​​: Check out http://www.1fb.me/samsgift 07:18 -- Q: Why do I do this? A: And the reason that I do this is because I found is though that there are a lot of people who have gifts and talents, and I look at what I do as the conduit. I'm the connector. I'm the person that connects people with their gifts and talents to the people that need their help. So, I look at myself as a conduit. And I get fulfilled from actually bridging the gap between people who have the products and service...

In this episode of The Frontside Podcast, panelists Charles Lowell, Rob DeLuca, and Sam Keathley, discuss how much the distinction between frontend, backend, and fullstack developers matter in both personal and professional senses. The differences in mindset between these categories are also discussed, for example, how does a fullstack developer solve a problem vs how a backend or frontend developer? And also, how clear (or fuzzy) is the line that separates them? What are the skills a frontend or backend developer needs to consider themselves fully fullstack? And finally, is there any sort of tribal separation between the factions? Do you have opinions on this show? Want to hear about a specific topic in the future? Reach out to us at contact@frontside.io or on Twitter at @thefrontside. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. TRANSCRIPT CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 101. My name is Charles Lowell. I'm a developer here at The Frontside and I'll be hosting today's episode. Today we're going to be talking about the different developer profiles that are out there. You might have heard mention of them on Stack Overflow, on job boards, on the Twitterverse. Things like frontend, backend, full stack, half stack, short stack. [Chuckles] Things like that. With me to talk about these are Rob and Sam. Rob is our director of open source here at Frontside and Sam is a software engineer here at Frontside. So, hey y'all. SAM: Hey. ROB: Hey yo. CHARLES: Alright. So, before we get into the meat of the topic, there are a few announcements that we wanted to make. First and foremost, this is some really exciting news. This week, Taras Mankovski officially joined the team at The Frontside. And we are really, really excited about that. [Cheers] ROB: That's exciting. CHARLES: Yeah. It's super exciting. Not only is Taras an exceptional engineer, he's got amazing code skills. He's extremely empathetic and a great person to work with. He's great working with clients and he's also fantastic at really working with developers who are climbing that ladder and helping them level up. So, he's been involved in mentorship literally since I've known him. I think that was the first time that we ever came into contact with him was through his mentorship work in the Ember community. And we've been collaborating with him for years on several open source projects. And so, we just are so excited and know that he's going to come on and do some amazing things by helping us be better developers, helping us be better community emissaries. And so, lots of good stuff coming out of that. ROB: Absolutely. CHARLES: Yeah, yeah. No, that's really exciting. So, definitely wanted to throw that out there. ROB: Too bad he didn't join a little bit earlier. We would have had a good time with him on this podcast. CHARLES: I know. Well he's actually, I think he's been on the podcast twice. ROB: [Laughs] That's true. CHARLES: But yeah, there's definitely a couple of topics where his input would have been absolutely critical. I think it would have been great to have him along when we were trying to run our own apprenticeship programs. Those would have worked out I think a lot better. Well, not to say that the outcomes haven't been stellar in some cases. But I think having his expertise would have made it a lot smoother. That said, before we jump in then, just wanted to let everyone know that as always, if you want to work with us you can get to us at contact@frontside.io or send a shout-out on Twitter @TheFrontside. Okay. Y'all, let's jump into it. Like what is even a stack? ROB: [Laughs] So, do you want to kind of set up where this came from, Charles? I think it came from you and I going back and forth on Twitter. And I was like, “You know what? We need to talk about this on the podcast.” CHARLES: Yeah. I think I was actually on vacation. ROB: [Laughs] That's right. You were trying to ski. CHARLES: [Laughs] I was on the ski lift. And I saw you tweeting and I was like, “No, no, no. I got to respond to that.” Probably because there was maybe a little bit of disagreement but also because I just needed something to do. Looking out the majestic scenery of the Rocky Mountains wasn't enough. So yeah, what's the backstory there? ROB: So, I can't remember what I was actually tweeting about. But I kind of feel like there is a distinction between a frontend developer, a backend developer, and at this point I don't know if a full stack developer truly exists. I mean, it does. But it's used more often than it really implies what they're doing. Usually when you hear of a full stack developer, it's like, “Man, I can sling some code on the backend and I can do a little bit of architecture stuff on the frontend. But CSS, keep that away from me.” And in my opinion, if you're a full stack developer, you need to sling CSS, too. CHARLES: Really? ROB: Yeah. CHARLES: No, no. I certainly agree. Because I was going to ask, is it fair to say that full stack developer is code for like, startup developer? ROB: Yeah. That's a good – like a utilitarian, like a jack of all trades but not a master of any? CHARLES: Right, exactly. ROB: I can take that. So, I guess the way we can start to dig into this one is like, how much distinction is there between a frontend, a backend, and a full stack developer? And does that matter in a professional sense? CHARLES: Right. And so, I think my take was that the skillsets that you need in both places are actually much more convergent than you think, than people might think. In other words, the skills that you utilize on the backend actually translate very well to the frontend. I think my stance is that what makes a frontend developer and a backend developer is more the problem sets that you gravitate towards naturally, the things that interest you. I actually was a backend developer. And now I consider myself to be primarily a frontend developer. But the skills that I had developed writing backend systems in Java translated shockingly well into frontend development with JavaScript. But it was working on the portion of the program that interfaced with the human was, that was the thing that fascinated me. And so, it's what I gravitated towards. And so, I guess in my [6:15 inaudible] or the way that I have been thinking about it is that what makes a frontend developer and a backend developer is more what gravitational pulls you respond to, rather than one particular skillset. But I know that you've got a perhaps more refined take on that, or a different take. ROB: Yeah. Before I do, I want to know what Sam's thoughts are on this. This would be a good one. SAM: Where I come from in the understanding of frontend, backend, and full stack is I – background on me: I did a bootcamp before working here. So, I did a development bootcamp where they were really excited to tell you at the end of it that, “Oh, you're a full stack developer because we've introduced you to everything. Like, touched on every sort of little topic. You're full stack. Tell everyone you're full stack.” And it's like, “Well, you're not really a specialist in any of the sense.” So, what makes a difference to me, I'm going to specifically talk about full stack, but it's like before you can say you're full stack, having knowledge of frontend and at backend, you need to have expertise in at least one of them first, or understanding of that mindset first. Like if I say that I like frontend work more then I need to understand frontend work more before I can say that I understand backend work, you know? ROB: Yeah. CHARLES: So, do you feel like the bootcamp was doing you a disservice? Or do you think they got… SAM: I don't think they did a disservice at all. So, they did a really good job. So, bootcamps are really for introducing you to everything. And then whatever you take from that is your own. So, they introduce you to all the little things like database working and then JavaScript, Ruby, whatever it is. And then it's your job to figure out in those introductions, what you resonate most with. So, I think they did a really good job in that. I think that they shouldn't tell you what you are, like tell you that because they touched on whatever it was, that you're full stack. CHARLES: Right. SAM: So, I don't think they did a disservice at all. I learned a lot. But I wouldn't say I'm full stack at all. CHARLES: So, if you feel as though you're not full stack, what do you feel that you are? SAM: Definitely frontend. CHARLES: Definitely frontend. SAM: I gravitate more towards frontend. ROB: Why would you feel that way? Is it because you're more pulled towards the UI of things? Or is that where you feel like you've gotten most of your experience now? SAM: Actually a little bit of both. I tend to like the UI of things a little bit more. It's interesting. Whenever I was going to the bootcamp, I thought I was going to be more backend because I thought I really like working with the behind the scenes sort of. You don't see this work but you know it's there. But I definitely like the UI of frontend a lot more. Just personal. ROB: I see that. SAM: And it's where my skillset is, because this is all frontend work that I'm doing here at The Frontside. So, it's what I know most at this point. CHARLES: Yeah. I'm curious too. Isn't it true that there's also a conception in the wider tech world that frontend is limited to CSS and HTML? ROB: Ooh. Yeah, that could be. CHARLES: Like when you see job posting for frontend developers, typically it's like, we want someone… ROB: Yeah. It's kind of morphed from – JavaScript developer is now a single-page app developer instead of frontend. Yeah. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's now, it could be considered as HTML and CSS and not JavaScript anymore. [Chuckles] CHARLES: Which is so bizarre to me. SAM: [9:42 inaudible] a lot of places when a frontend developer who is also a UX designer. Someone who has the knowledge of designing things from the ground up and then only working in things that look good, rather than logic. ROB: Yeah. This can be probably an entirely other topic. But that's like the frontend of the frontend and the backend of the frontend, is like [10:03 inaudible] call it. Because there are [10:06 inaudible] developers. And single-page apps have gotten so complex these days, between your data layer and your testing and managing state on the frontend. There is a backend, an architecture, that you need to consider when you're developing a single-page app. And I've worked on teams where there are developers that are working on the frontend but they still don't like CSS. They don't do CSS things and they don't consider layout or any design. They just take the ticket and they get the data going. Get the data from the server, request it, display it on the page. And then another person would come through and style it up to the spec or the mock. But yeah, that's interesting. So for my take on this, and where this actually really came from, is we were going through some hiring. And we were trying to figure out how we can place somebody or hire someone that can be effective in the role that we immediately needed. And all of our immediate needs were in frontend-specific things. And we can actually talk about if they're frontend-frontend or frontend of the backend. But where this kind of came from or was born was: if we're hiring somebody that needs to fill a frontend role and they're primarily a backend developer, there are gotchas and things you have to know to be an effective frontend developer. Like quirky browser things that happen or like how to set up a Babel transpilation setup. And what are the gotchas here? Kind of the history of the frontend web, because there's a lot of things that are there that can cause a lot of headache if you don't know the backstory. And I know from your perspective Charles, you think – and this is isn't wrong – but you think that if somebody has a really talented backend developer, it's really just concepts that you can apply to the frontend. And I agree with that. CHARLES: Right. But you have to want to do it. [Laughs] ROB: Yes. That is also a key. CHARLES: You have to be gripped by the problem set of the frontend. You want it to inspire you to leverage those solutions. ROB: Yeah. So, would you say there's a different mindset between a frontend, backend developer, and full stack? Does a full stack developer solve a problem that's different from how a backend developer or a frontend developer would? CHARLES: That's a subtle question and probably one that might offend people, my answer to it. So, I'll go ahead and answer it. [Chuckles] ROB: Hashtag [12:23 inaudible] CHARLES: Actually, maybe not. Just in my experience historically – I want to underline the fact historically – I think that it is people who gravitate towards the outside-in mindset, in other words the very first thing they're thinking of is, “How is this going to feel to a person who's going to use this?” If that's your first question that you ask, then you probably are going to gravitate towards the frontend. Then in terms of the backend, I'd say historically – and like I said, I want to underline that, and I'll get to that later – I think it's people who are more drawn to: I want to attack the most complex problem that exists. Like distributing state over 10,000 nodes, managing huge deployment infrastructures that drive these massive websites that happen at this mind-boggling scale. And so, there you really are thinking computer to computer and, “What's the ideal interface for doing that?” And then on the frontend you're thinking more like human to computer, because that's where the interface lies. Now the reason I say… ROB: I feel so let down. Where's the controversy? CHARLES: Well, okay. Well, because I think that basically – I think the controversy is saying like people who are more naturally empathetic. I don't know. That would be the controversy thing. But I want to say historical. ROB: Yeah. I can see that. [Laughs] CHARLES: So, I want to say historical too, because I feel like one of the things that's been magical about the last two decades of software development is the dawning realization that no software you write exists in a vacuum and that it's all interconnected. And so, I think that I for example feel very strongly while I try to think about the user experience first. And the developer, I'm also thinking about developer experience first. The way that you want a system to feel is going to inform the design of the UX workflow and that's going to affect the architecture of your frontend. And if you're interfacing with it through different media, like websites, phone, I don't know, even text messages, Slack, what have you – that's going to inform then the next level of how your APIs are shaped, your public-facing APIs. Which then inform the structure of your internal deployments. So, recognizing that the decisions you make in one end of the stack and ripple through completely and that they're not what we hold as dear these concepts of separation of concerns and complete and total isolation of layers. That really is false. But what it does is it enables us to change the individual layers to more – ironically the reason you want to have separation of the layers is so that it more easily lets you change them provide a more integrated experience. So, I think that's a long way of saying that I think frontend developers are more aware of what's going on in the backend and that they might be drawn into the backend. And the same thing goes for backend developers, realizing that the decisions they make are affected by the frontend and affect the frontend. And so, I think there's been a dawning more of a collective responsibility for design, for operations, for developer experience. And I think it's great. ROB: Yeah. And to [think back off] that. So, I was kind of wondering where the controversy was, because that's kind of my exact answer, too. Where do you gravitate towards on? The difference of mindset is like, if you've got a problem and let's say you're a full stack developer, so whatever that manes, but if you're given a task where you have to implement the frontend and the backend, where you gravitate towards first I would say is how you would attack solving a problem. For me, I would immediately go to the frontend and see how a user would immediately interact with it and then work out that way. Mostly also because I like having a tight feedback loop. And the frontend provides that nicely. I can change something and immediately see the difference there. And in the backend you can spend a little bit of time, unless you're TDD which you should be – you can spend a little bit of time piecing together things and figuring out the architecture. And then you'll have something that you could show for. It's just nice to see UI get thrown on the page. And it's real and you click a button and something happens. That's a really nice feeling. And that's kind of where I gravitate towards. And if yeah, if I had to attack the problem, I'm going there first. I get the endorphins from it. [Chuckles] CHARLES: Right. So, if we want to add controversy to the other side, because you got to always be controversial, right? So, we said the really blunt horrible oversimplification is that people who are more naturally empathetic gravitate towards the frontend. You could also say that from the other perspective, people who are more internally validated will gravitate to the backend. Because if you need to get those endorphins from working on the frontend, basically what you're saying is, “I want to put it in front of people and get the feedback from those people and know whether it's good or bad.” Whereas you could say, “Actually, I don't need validation from other people. I've got this concept of this architecture that is going to be the ideal thing. I know it. I've got this vision and I'm going to chase it, regardless of what's going on.” I think you can more readily do that on the backend because you're not as open to the feedback of a whole bunch of different users. And like I said, I think those are gross oversimplifications. ROB: Yeah. I agree. And so, as a devil's advocate towards the backend developer that is less empathetic, I think actually some of the best backend developers I've ever worked with were the most empathetic people ever. Because they know that software is for humans. And humans are going to be consuming the API that they build. And they take that into consideration. CHARLES: Absolutely. And I actually think that empathy pervades good software development just wherever you find it. Because yeah, someone's going to be using your APIs whether it's software as a service or it's a library. If it's software as a service, it's got to be easy to work with. It's got to be performant. It's got to have a nice command line. And so, you have to be thinking at all times, “What is it like to use this software? What is it like to consume it? What is it like to link it into my library? What is it like to call it from a web client?” So yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think it's actually one of the great virtues of great software developers. SAM: Yeah. So, something that I've always kind fo had a question with, especially coming from that bootcamp setting: is there any sort of tribal separation between what you would consider a frontend or a backend developer or even full stack? Like, “I'm better because I understand data layers than I understand how a button fits on a page,” that sort of thing. CHARLES: I would say absolutely yes. If you at the, just do a quick poll of the Twitterverse, it seems like people tend to hang out in little circles of similar interest. So, there's definitely a bunch of people that I follow that are always tweeting about backend stuff. ROB: Yeah. Twitter is ‘build your own echo chamber'. CHARLES: Yeah. And there are people who I follow that are tweeting nothing but mostly frontend – when I say frontend, I mean frontend of the frontend. Well basically, from CSS down to nothing deeper than React components. And then there's people who are talking primarily about the backend of the frontend. So yeah, I do think that people – there are clearly, there are different areas of the stack and I think that people do tribalize around them. So, the question is: Who are the border agents? Because always cross-border trade. Any time you have borders, there's an exchange of ideas and information and things that happen at those layers. And actually, one of the things I'm really curious about is: How does that happen? ROB: Yeah. You might have the best perspective on this because you did – you were using Java Swing back in the early 2000s building UI. And that's like backend things. And then you had a lot of experience with Rails and you've moved into the JavaScript world. And the thing that I've noticed with frontend is, we're applying a lot of concepts that existed on the backend. And we're moving all that complexity into the frontend. And that's kind of where that fuzzy line of, “Are you the frontend of the frontend? Are you the backend of the frontend?” comes from. And it's interesting that – like this is going to be another podcast. We'll end up talking about this – but we have – MVC lives on the frontend. Like in React, your C is a container component. The controller is a container component. The model is probably your Redux layer if you have it or if you're using micro-states. And the view is your components, your view layer components that you're rendering down. So, these concepts are moving from the backend to the frontend. We're just kind of renaming them and making them our own concept. But they're there. So, how does that knowledge sharing happen? Is it really just a mass exodus of backend developers interested in frontend developers now? CHARLES: I don't know. I think it goes both ways. So, I can only speak to my own experience. And that was when I first started doing frontend development was back in 2003 I think. So almost 15 years ago. We were building a touchscreen interface for an electronics vendor in the UK. And it was just so much fun, because we were getting to build these interfaces that literally looked like nothing else. And you could touch them and you had support for rudimentary gestures and there was no keyboard. And basically the only interface was your fingers and like a price scanning gun. And everything, all the entire UI had to be developed out of that. And so, it was such a novel system and it was so fun to implement that I just gravitated towards it. I think the thing that was particularly compelling was it was very interactive UI. It was high-touch, literally. This is a clerk who's sitting there using this thing as rapidly as they can to sell stuff and move people through the line. So, it was like a unique problem. But the thing that was cool about it was I realized so many – we kind of already touched on this in this conversation – so many things that I had learned on the backend applied there. And there was in order to provide that experience, there had to be a pretty complex machine behind it. And that was fascinating, that machine. And so, we were able to apply a lot of the concepts. And so, in that time on the backend I'd just come off working off a backend that had basically an event bus – we would probably call them microservices now, although we didn't call them that then – were coordinating based on all these events. And that translated over into the frontend really, really well. And I remember using a lot of the techniques for exception handling – doing it on the frontend and doing a lot of the multithreaded stuff that we were doing on the backend, trying to reconcile that with the frontend and really understanding. So, there were all these analogous concepts. And it could be – so, there was an original exodus of backend development, for me personally. And so for me, it was like I felt like I moved onto the web pretty much exclusively in 2006. And it was a good – I would say 2013 maybe is when web UI development finally caught up with Java Swing. Like it was like, that whole time I was like, “I'm using the web because it's an awesome deployment platform. And it's got all this great stuff,” but man, the developer experience is not as good as like a stateful fat GUI was back then. And now, I would say it's actually surpassed quite significantly. But now, I think there are a lot of people maybe who either – I think there's a casting back of people who are in frontend development and casting back to the web. So right now, my love affair with immutability and functional programming started by using a Clojure web framework which borrowed a lot of the ideas from Clojure. So, I guess there was an exodus there – people from Clojure wanting to develop apps, wanted to have their goodies. But then I found that and I was like, “Whoa, that's awesome.” But then that really set the hook for me. And so now, I try and go back to the well, the backend well or the shared computational well, as much as I can. So, all of that stuff of basically discovering all this functional programming stuff, this highly formalized functional programming, all came from saying, “Wow. I got a taste of that. Let me get more.” So, it's very much like trying to run through the village of the backend and ransack the stores and take as much as I can and bring it back, because I know that it's good. ROB: So earlier in the podcast, you said that you were a frontend developer. You described yourself as a frontend developer. And that's funny, because I actually consider you a full stack developer. It's because you can jump in on the backend and sling any kind of code as well as anybody could, and then you can also do the same thing on the frontend. So, the question I have here is: Do you think actually someone that truly is a full stack developer – and we can define that in a second – but do you think they're at an advantage here, because they have all that experience? You can answer yes. But why? Why do you think they have an advantage? CHARLES: I think they have an advantage in the same way that a person who's bilingual has an advantage. So, if you are living in North America, it behooves you to speak Spanish because you are now open to an entire set of markets that were previously closed to you. Well, not entirely closed but like you can trade with Mexico and you can trade with South America. You can buy and sell goods. You have access to yeah, emerging technologies that might – something special might be happening in Mexico City, or in Medellín, Colombia, and you're going to have first access to that. And so, if you don't, if you're not bilingual, then you're going to have to go through an intermediary who is. And so, there's a premium: you get to be the middle man so to speak. Or you get to be, maybe that has kind of a negative connotation, but you get to be the broker of new ideas and new technologies. If you can, if you are fluent in backend so to speak, then you can go into backend-landia and you can talk with the developers there and see what kind of cool stuff they're doing. And then you can take it across the border into frontend-land and sell it. And so, that's – I think we're very much first to the gun on – not first to the gun but we're ahead of the pack in terms of functional programming. Because we've seen that. We've seen it proved out and we've now actually started to integrate it into your day-to-day routines. And we're ahead of the pack on that, right? And so, I think that's kind of a keystone analogy for me that I think really, really captures what is the advantage in being a full stack engineer. ROB: So, well how do you define a full stack engineer or developer? What things do you have to possess to actually claim that title? In order to be a full stack developer I personally believe you have to know, you have to be comfortable with CSS. You can hate it. You can yell at it. But I think you have to be able to put together a layout if a designer gives you a comp in order to claim full stack. And in the same token, if you're a full stack developer and you mainly came from the frontend, you should be able to implement backend features. I don't actually have – so, I'm strong in the frontend, not so strong in the backend. What would be the analogous of CSS in the backend? Would it be like mocking your controller actions? [Chuckles] CHARLES: I would say you should have a familiarity with HTTP and REST, would probably be the equivalent. Kind of like a foundational technology that just every single technology is oriented around it, or most. Regardless of the protocol you're using – there are things like GraphQL which are not really RESTful, although it's a blurry line there – but they're still delivered over HTTP. And so, understanding things like CORS, understanding the things that are going to be universal to APIs. ROB: I think a lot of people try to claim full stack. I try to claim it. And I know I'm not. I can put together a pretty crummy Rails API on my own for personal projects. But I'm not going to be the one that's setting up indexes on a database to optimize a database or anything. I think that does come in time, but you have – borrowing from Brandon Haye's talks about career development – if you're a full stack developer, I think you end up having to be in the industry for a long time. Longer than what we consider a senior developer these days, I think. Because you could be a senior developer and be specialized. And we see that all the time, and that's okay. But in order to amass that knowledge and experience, I think you have to be in the industry for a long time and done those things a couple of times to really know. CHARLES: Yeah. I agree. So, can I add something there? To continue the analogy of being full stack is like being bilingual or multilingual. I go back to those analogies a lot because that's what I – linguistics is what I studied in school. But when I was studying linguistics, one of the things that was going on there was they were kind of redefining what… ROB: That makes so much more sense of your vocabulary. [Laughs] CHARLES: What it means to be bilingual. There was kind of a reorientation of that definition that was going on while I was in school. And that was being bilingual doesn't necessarily mean you're able to converse about poetry or like deep technology or give speeches in another language. It really is, it's as spectrum of… ROB: Ooh, that's quite interesting. CHARLES: The definition of bilingual is like: Do you use another language in your life? So, if you are let's say someone who is a recent immigrant to a country and let's say you've got less than 1,000 words but you're using them to buy groceries, to pay bills, to do things like that, then you are bilingual. Bilinguility is not an exclusive club. It's really, are you actually using a language? So, if… ROB: Ooh, so that actually gets my wheels turning. Does that mean that you can have a junior full stack developer? Because like, if you just merely speak the both languages, technically by that definition, I jive with that. You can speak two languages. You are bilingual. You can write in two different languages. You might be full stack. But does that mean in the software industry you are a junior full stack developer and then as you go on and get tasks that are full-stack-like, you get better on both sides? Or is it as an industry, we really have to specialize? CHARLES: To start on the first point, I think that if you – let's just restrict it to one language – if you're doing JavaScript on the frontend and using Node.js on the backend, if you're writing Node code you are I would say by definition, and certainly by the definition of bilingual that I just proffered, you would be considered full stack, a junior full stack developer like I was saying. And I think that it's just been my experience that as you go on in your career, you will cross multiple layers of the stack just because you can't keep your hands off. If you have an ownership mentality of, “Here's this thing that needs fixed,” and it's on the backend, you know what? I'm going to go ahead and learn a little bit of how to do this, because I need it to work with the thing that I'm working on. ROB: Yeah, that makes sense. CHARLES: You will just naturally be drawn over borders throughout your career just because someone's got to do it, to do the thing that… ROB: You got to solve a problem. CHARLES: Right, when you've got to solve a problem. So, I think that people become more and more full stack over the course of their careers. But that said, I do think that there are clearly areas where functional specialization is absolutely a requirement. Like if you say, “You know what? We've got this API and we need to support 600 queries per second and we've got this huge, crazy deployment…” ROB: I will not be your person to do that. CHARLES: Yeah, exactly. That's something you're very much – that is something that you're very much hiring for. And you want to be hiring for like you said, someone who has the skill and someone who, that's what they want to do. ROB: Yeah. If you need better state management and rendering performance and testability on the frontend, I'm your person. [Chuckles] If you need me to scale your API, to handle hundreds of thousands of requests a second, nope. [Laughs] So yeah, I agree with the specialization. So Sam, I want to know. Has this conversation swayed you any way? Are you more interested in being full stack or are you leaning to a side more? [Chuckles] SAM: So, I think full stack is, it's as much about skillset as it is about personality. So, like you were talking a little bit earlier on how someone who's frontend might have more empathy towards the user. And someone who's backend might have more empathy towards the computer and the developer, rather than the end user. I think someone who's full stack has to have a wider range or empathy so they can empathize with all rather than just one or the other sets. I think personality-wise, I'd be a fine full stack developer. But I think professional-wise, I do gravitate towards the frontend because that's just how I am. As a person, I like to see the visual rather than the concept. I do a lot of painting. I do a lot of drawings. So, I'm a very visual person. So, it's really helpful to me, especially for someone who's junior and who's still learning and who came from that bootcamp experience, to be able to see what I'm changing. So, I think it does kind of go a little bit into experience as well. So, I think over time when I start touching on maybe some more backend work and I see some stuff that interests me, definitely I'll gravitate towards it, just because I want to learn. But I don't know that it's like an intrinsic quality, you would want to be full stack or be backend or be frontend, you know? ROB: That's interesting. Yeah, I agree with that. CHARLES: Yeah. That is actually a really interesting point. Because I think what I heard you say there is that when you have – software is a hidden world in many ways. You talked about it in the beginning of the conversation, the areas of the site unseen. Like you know it's there but it's hidden from view. So, there's a certain amount of vision that needs to develop. So, you kind of internalize what software, like this hidden software, looks like. So what does a deployment of some load-balanced microservice clustered thing look like? Most people would not be able to answer that question. But the more time you're exposed to it, the more it becomes burned into your inner vision. ROB: Mental model? CHARLES: Yeah. You develop a mental model. Your brain literally wraps around that. It takes time. But on the frontend, especially if you're a visual person – but I would say even if you're not – I think the same would apply to someone who's using assistive technology. It's still something that you can feel with your sense and you don't have to develop a sixth sense to perceive it. So, there's literally a problem of perception there. And so, maybe frontend work is a great on-ramp for everybody, because it's so perceptual. ROB: That's exactly why I picked it. I was trying to do iOS dev before. And I could not do it for those reasons. I didn't have that nice tight feedback loop of even though it was UI, in Objective-C you had to construct your UI and buttons out of Objective-C. Unless you wanted to use Apple's Interface Builder and that was, meh. Everybody built it procedurally. And what I loved about HTML and CSS, was I could instantly throw something on the page, attach some CSS to it, and see it change immediately. And that felt so good. [Chuckles] CHARLES: Yeah, yeah, no. And it's important to get those really tight feedback loops, especially when you're starting out. ROB: So, if we had to tie this back together, did we decide that there is a distinction between frontend, backend, and full stack? And if there is, or isn't, why? SAM: I think there's like… CHARLES: I don't know if we've… go ahead. SAM: Kind of a distinction. But it's also really fuzzy, I would say. So, if I'm going to explain what the difference is between frontend and backend to someone who maybe isn't a developer, I would always go back to a video game. So, when you see your guy… ROB: Ooh, this is interesting. SAM: Yeah. [Chuckles] When you see your guy running around and you're like, “Oh, this game looks really good. I'm really into these graphics,” but do you ever think about what it takes to save the game or what is actually being saved when you go to save it? So, if you're more interested in making the guy run and making the guy and the environment look good, you might gravitate more towards frontend. But if you're really interested in saving the data, like well what is being saved when I hit ‘save to this slot' or whatever? Then you might gravitate more towards backend. ROB: Or like the network layer of the online multiplayer? SAM: Yeah, yeah. ROB: [Laughs] That's interesting. I've never used video games as an analogy. I always go like, you know, if you're a frontend developer, you know that button that you click? That's the button I create. And then the action that happens is usually what the backend developer does. I think I like the game analogy better. [Laughs] SAM: I think the game analogy is something that most people can grasp. And most people can grasp. Like I'll tell people the difference between frontend and backend if I'm talking about Facebook. Like what I do for a job is I'll show you everything that's on your Facebook page. And when somebody, or the backend is somebody who makes all of that come into play, kind of, you know? But I think video games are easier to conceptualize that abstraction of data being saved rather than trying to explain the intricacies of Facebook to somebody. ROB: [Chuckles] CHARLES: Yeah. No, I like that. I like that. So, I guess if we achieved consensus, would we say that these do exist as broad functional categories? And a full stack developer is someone who will move in between those functional categories through the course of their career. And that generally, the trend is that the longer the career goes, the more you will do that. ROB: Yeah. I can get on board with that. I'm going to use your career as like the guiding post of that. The way you just explained it, it kind of made something click for me. You describe yourself as a frontend developer. And I think in our industry with software development and the way teams work, I think you end up specializing no matter if you call yourself a full stack developer or not. Because I do think you're a full stack developer. But you've mainly been working on frontend for the past what, three years, four years? So, I think it's okay to call yourself a frontend developer. But you are a full stack developer. But as you specialize around and amass that knowledge, that's where you become that full stack developer, right? And so, at one point in your career, you were a backend developer. And then now at this point in your career, you're a frontend developer. But now you have those experiences and you can draw on both of them and apply them across the fields, right? That's super interesting to me. So, maybe it is that you have to specialize in order to achieve the full stack. And you're never truly a full stack developer in your role. But it's possible, depending on the team and the team dynamics. It's just interesting that you can be a full stack developer, also at the same time be specializing as a frontend developer at that current time, right? Yeah, that's interesting. CHARLES: Alright, so it sounds like consensus achieved. Let's all virtually hug. [Chuckles] ROB: Send the hug emoji. CHARLES: Alright everybody. That is our show for today. We are The Frontside and we build software that you can stake your future on. We would love to hear from you, especially if you have an idea for a future podcast topic. Any news that you think is something that we should discuss, even if it's not the theme of the whole episode. And we will see you next time. As always, you can give us a shout on Twitter at @TheFrontside or just drop us an email at contact@frontside.io. If you enjoyed today's podcast, it was produced by Mandy Moore, the inimitable @TheRubyRep. So thank you, Mandy. And see you all next time.

Sam Cates: @SamCates | GE Ventures Show Notes: 02:01 - What Corporate Investing Looks Like 03:48 - Presenting Ideas For Funding 09:01 - Democratizing Venture Capital 10:17 - ICOs and Cryptocurrency 13:53 - Evaluating Companies to Fund 21:09 - Investing in Potential Competitors 24:42 - Looking For Funding as a Company 28:04 - “Mentoring” Ideas/Companies 30:07 - Monitoring/Evaluating Company Metrics 32:47 - Putting Together a Basic Business Plan 36:05 - Making Choices: Investor and Company-wise Resources: Resin.io Series A, B, C Funding Angel Investor Seed Money Initial Coin Offering (ICO) AngelList Crunchbase Fred Wilson's Blog: (AVC.com) Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 92. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and I am your podcast host-in-training kicking it off in 2018. [Inaudible] of our first episode. We've got Elrick also joining us. Hello, Elrick. ERICK: Hey. How you doing, Charles? CHARLES: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. You having a good new year so far? ERICK: Yeah, it's great. There's a snowstorm passing through today. So, I'm going to break in the New Year shoveling. CHARLES: Let us know if we need to parachute in some shovels for you. ERICK: [Laughs] CHARLES: And then with us today, we have Sam Cates on the show who is… a lot of times we have developers on the show. He's actually a venture… what would you describe yourself as? SAM: Yeah, I'd say I'm a venture investor with GE Ventures. So, on the corporate investing side. CHARLES: Okay. Now, I didn't even know that GE actually had a corporate investing side. Is that pretty common for a large company? SAM: You know, it's becoming increasingly common. I think in 2015 there was actually a peak of activity coming from corporate venture capital groups. And I've only seen the number of firms escalate since then. Although the dollars invested stays pretty consistent. But if you look at a lot of big companies, particularly in the common tech world like Cisco, Google, Intel, they have historically had large venture firms inside of themselves. And then GE and a lot of other industrials have since followed suit. We've been at it for about five years and we see it increasingly. CHARLES: And so, have you been with them since the beginning? SAM: Yeah, just about. I've actually been with GE for about nine years now. So, I was on the operating side in a number of the industrial businesses before I joined GE Digital and then GE Ventures. And so, it was just after GE Ventures got kicked off. CHARLES: Oh, that's exciting. So, what is it… now, we actually got connected to you through one of the companies that you actually invested in. It's something that we use and we're very interested in. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what your job looks like on a day-to-day basis and what companies you invest in? SAM: Sure. I really focus a lot of my time on Internet of Things companies. So, that's a really big trend that GE has been a part of and a leader in over the past few years. And so, we spend time investing in companies that are directly working with GE or playing in similar spaces to us. And so, Elrick and I actually met at a hackathon for one of those companies. And I always like to use that as an example because it's a good one, to demonstrate the kinds of investments we make. And that's Resin.io. I know you guys have done an episode or two talking with them. But that for example was a ‘Series A' investment that we made about two years ago. And then company essentially helps developers build connected products. And so, that's something that GE cares a lot about. We had people inside the company who found the product and loved it and that's actually how we met. CHARLES: When you say ‘Series A', can you give a brief overview of what the different stages of funding of a startup might be? SAM: Yeah, yeah, certainly. So, maybe if I take a step back and answer your original question on what I do on a day-to-day basis. A lot of my job is meeting with all kinds of new companies, whether they be early stage, usually things that would be seed funding – and we'll go into what some of those things mean – all the way through the late stage which would be companies that are maybe on the border of going public or are already profitable. And so, if we go into what kinds of investors there are, I think that's probably an interesting subject to talk more about. But they're a whole wide variety. When I said ‘Series A' I just meant a company that was at what we would call the ‘Series A' stage, and the letters act just like you'd expect. So, there's ‘Series A', ‘Series B', ‘Series C', and so on. And they all, they tend to look similar at those stages in terms of sizes and progress. But there is a range, and no two company is the same. ERICK: In today's world, it's very easy for people to create a startup. They can write some code and they can either come up, get a Raspberry Pi or some microcontrollers or whatever it is, and either do an IoT startup or a software startup. Now, when you get to the point where you have an idea and you kick it off initially, how do you go about then saying, “Let me get some funding.” How do you even get funding? SAM: Sure, yeah. And to your point, there's a huge range of technologies that are making it easier to start almost any kind of company. It's a great time to be an entrepreneur, whether it be 3D printing for hardware products, all the technologies that you were mentioning, AWS, all this stuff is contributing to reducing the cost to allow companies or people to create companies. And so, once people have gone out and experimented with some of these things and built what they think is a product the market wants, often if they require more money which may be for acquiring customers through things like Facebook Ads or simply doing further product development to make sure the product is somewhere that more customers could use it, often they can't finance it just through their own revenue. And so, there are typical stages and types of investors that people go approach looking for money. ERICK: Okay. What are those Series? I remember you mentioned something like a ‘Series A' investment. So, initially when you're looking for an investment, is that where you would… category you would be in as a startup looking for investment? They would consider you a ‘Series A' startup? SAM: Well, I want to caveat and just say every company is different. So, I see companies that… ERICK: Gotcha. SAM: Start out at a much later stage because they're able to bootstrap to that point. And bootstrap is the word that I use for a company that funds its own investment. They get paid by customers and they use that money to continue building the product. But if I talk about the range of types of financing a company may go for, I think the way that most people categorize this, first people often raise from friends and family or angels. And so, it's just money to get off the ground and maybe to pay the rent while you're doing some of that experimenting we were talking about. And then commonly after that is a seed round. And a seed round tends to be a little more institutional. So, it's maybe a more formal set of funds who exclusively invest in companies that are often pre-revenue but they have a product, or at least the beginnings of a product. And so, that's a really common category of investors. And then you get to ‘Series A' and the letters can escalate from there to the point where… ERICK: Gotcha. SAM: There can be some later rounds when they'd be ‘Series F' or even beyond, I guess. CHARLES: Right. So now, what are generally the terms on these? So, for my angel investments or my seed investments, I assume what distinguishes these is essentially how much ownership of the company you're getting for how much money. And those kind of, those change as the product solidifies. SAM: Yeah. CHARLES: And the potential becomes more visible. SAM: Yeah, it's a wide… and again, these are all… the venture is a world of ranges. There's a really wide difference between the two ends of any spectrum. So, I'll just talk in generalities though. So, I think the latest report that I've seen at least for an annual basis was PitchBook's 2016 report. And they were laying out some of the medians. So, for seed stage deals I believe it was something like one and a half million dollars raised was the median on a pre-money valuation of six and a half million. And that just means the company is worth, investors say the company is worth six and a half million dollars today. And we're going to give you a million and a half dollars invested at that price. CHARLES: So roughly, a sixth… they would take a sixth of the company then in return? SAM: Yeah. CHARLES: Okay. ERICK: Ah. CHARLES: Okay. ERICK: Okay. CHARLES: I see. That makes sense. So now, back to Elrick's original question. If I'm, I've got my product. Or I've got this idea. I've written some code. I've turned it into a prototype product. Maybe I'm moving through these various stages. What type of VC am I going to be looking for? How do I actually find the right type to be talking to? I guess what types are there even? SAM: Yeah. And one part… we mentioned a lot of the technologies that are making it easier to start companies. One part that also makes it easier is the proliferation of financing options, whether it be even more investors in these traditional structures we talked about like seed and A. And then there are other options that are emerging, things like you see a lot of people raising through what they call Initial Coin Offerings or ICOs. And then there are also things like AngelList which are attempting to democratize the investing process, make it more accessible. So traditionally, a lot of the seed A, B investors, they tend to be network-based, which can be a challenge for a lot of people that are maybe not in Silicon Valley or not a part of that network already. And so, one thing you can do is obviously go search databases that are on the web, things like Crunchbase. It's a free resource. It has a lot of deal history for investments that people have made. And it's a great resource for knowing, “Okay, this investor cares about these things.” And then in addition to that, there are also platforms that people can put their companies on. Like I mentioned, AngelList. And that's somewhere that you can list your company, you can meet investors, and they actually have some backend to actually support the investing process as well. CHARLES: So, there were two acronyms in there, or two specific technologies. [Chuckles] CHARLES: You talked about ICOs which I assumed that you said it was Initial Coin Offering. Not like insane clown offering. [Laughter] CHARLES: Which I would love to see. And then AngelList. So traditionally, these had been very network-based which brings to mind the capitalists of Old England or whatever where there's a bunch of people with cigars in a room and I realize it's not actually like that. What are each of these things? The AngelList and the ICOs? And how do they democratize that process? SAM: It's funny you should mention the old times. I think a good example of that is there are a lot of stories about the founding of General Electric. It's a 126-year-old company and back then it was largely, it was Thomas Edison working with I believe was JP Morgan to get it off the ground. And so, today there's still a bit of the network piece you're mentioning. But I think of AngelList as a place that you can essentially market to investors. If you think about the types of people that are on there, it's people that are looking to invest money in early stages in startups. And I'm not a big user of AngelList because I tend to be investing a little bit later. So, I really recommend anybody who's interested, just go check it out. It's I believe just Angel.co. CHARLES: And what about an ICO? SAM: So, an ICO is a more modern one. And it's kind of fraught with some concerns around regulations and transparency today. But I think since Thanksgiving there's been a massive wave of conversation about cryptocurrencies. And an ICO is essentially a way of creating your own cryptocurrency. The way I always explain to people, I love the analogy that people make around, think of it like I want to go build an amusement park. And in that amusement park, everything, rides, food, everything, is going to be denominated and payable in Sam-bucks. CHARLES: Ah, right. SAM: And… [Chuckles] And so, my options… CHARLES: [Laughs] That makes sense. SAM: Yeah. And my options are I can go to a bank and borrow money, I can go to investors and say, “Hey, give me the 10 million dollars it's going to take to build it,” or I can just go to the people in the place where I'm building it and say, “You want this amusement park to exist? Why don't you pre-buy these Sam-bucks?” And each one is going to cost a dollar today. And we create this universe of Sam-bucks and they're essentially valuable once you can use them in the park. And there are certainly exceptions. There are other versions of cryptocurrencies and other uses for them. But that's a conversation for another day. CHARLES: Ah, mm. SAM: I think that's just a good, easy way to understand it. CHARLES: Oh no, I like that. It's like, well not quite like carnival tickets. But yeah, that's something that everyone's familiar with. Same thing as the Xbox Marketplace. Very similar thing. So, the idea is you would buy a bunch of Sam-bucks… you would get them at pennies on the dollar, so to speak, today. SAM: Yeah, right. By the time it opens, maybe a hotdog would cost just one Sam-buck. CHARLES: Right. SAM: Whereas, when it's coming in, we'd have to spend five dollars to get that one Sam-buck. Right, the idea being those people who got in early will be rewarded. And you can see it's like a further extension of a Kickstarter or something else that you're allowing people to pre-buy into a network. CHARLES: Right. Right, okay. I can see that. ERICK: That's very interesting. [Laughs] CHARLES: And so, it's got a range of options too, because if you're really interested in the services you can go ahead and spend them on the services and get a lot of value that way or you can actually trade for someone who does want the services if you don't. SAM: I think that's exactly right. And it's just, the one that I think I would just caveat is there is a huge amount of concern at the moment, and maybe concern is too strong a word, but uncertainty around one, what are the value of these coins, these tokens? And two, how will governments react to something that looks potentially like a security or a currency? And so, that's something that still is being worked through. And even though they haven't figured that out there's still a massive amount of money being raised through these ICOs. CHARLES: [Laughs] So, it does beg the question. Why is a cryptocurrency necessary? Why not just use Xbox Marketplace points? Why not just say, “Here are Sam-bucks.” SAM: [Chuckles] CHARLES: And there's a row in my database. [Laughter] CHARLES: That's your balance of Sam-bucks. SAM: So, I think we're about to get way beyond the [inaudible] [Laughter] SAM: But I think the argument would be that some of these things are better decentralized. So in my example, you're right. That might just make more sense. But I think there are some examples around cryptocurrencies that are supporting a network of decentralized services where a centralized database historically was inconvenient or didn't provide the amount of transparency that people were looking for. CHARLES: Right, right. SAM: And so, that's a topic for a whole other podcast. CHARLES: Yeah, right. No, it makes sense. SAM: [Laughs] CHARLES: I think it's a matter of scale, right? If you're going to be just buying services but if you're going to have secondary markets where you're trading in this currency, I can see that. So, let's… [Chuckles] We'll reel that back in. SAM: [Chuckles] CHARLES: And ask a question that occurred to me. So now, we talked about your day-to-day. What exactly, when you're looking at a company to basically give money to, what are you looking for? What are the things you're like, “Oh man, I want to throw dollars at this company,” versus, “Mm. I'm going to keep them and give them some feedback and send them on their way.” SAM: There's always a set of factors that we evaluate. And I think the waiting is probably different for different types of investors. And then there's I'd say for me as a corporate VC being a part of GE, there's an extra lens which is, how is this relevant to GE? What does it mean for GE to be an investor? But if I think about just the kind of general industry lines it's: team is a really big one. So, who's building this company? Do I believe in their ability to reach this vision that they're laying out for me? Another one would be technology. What have they actually built? Is that hard to build? Do the things they want to build in the future, will those be hard to build? And do they have the skills and the people to do it? Then their technology, maybe an extension of that would be intellectual property. And besides intellectual property, just defensibility of a business in general. So then, you start thinking about, can somebody else just come along and to the same thing? Because if so, then maybe there's not a strong advantage in what the company has done so far. And then lastly, it's also just traction. How far along are they? How much have they proven the ability to execute on the plan that they're laying out? CHARLES: Right. ERICK: So, you're a corporate investor. So, there's other types of investor like an institutional VC? What are the differences between an institutional VC and a corporate VC and the other types of VC? Potentially what they'd be looking for, in terms of what they wanted best. SAM: Yeah. So, I think generally I categorize investors as institutional or corporate. And corporate [inaudible]… ERICK: Yeah. SAM: Corporate or strategic. And then there are people who exist on a spectrum there. But generally, an institutional means this is a group that is raising money from a set of limited partners who are the people who invest in the fund that are pension funds or wealthy individuals. They're large pools of institutional capital and their pure purpose is to earn return. And they may have a certain focus because they believe in this part of the market, or they like this kind of company or the stage of company. But essentially, their job is to return more money to the limited partners of that fund that were put in. That's their role in the world. And then on the corporate side, if we go the most extreme version of corporate VC, this is a group that is a part of a larger corporate. They're investing that company's money. So, in this case for me it's GE. I'm investing GE's money into these startups. And that means that I only have a single backer being GE. And I also maybe have a different lens, because my purpose is one, to earn financial return. I want to go out and I want to find good companies. I want to earn returns just like the other institutional venture capitalists. But I also have the goal of, and the strategic goal may differ by company, but for me it's about how can I help GE advance? How can I help GE understand a market? And how can GE be helpful to this company in achieving their goals? And so, for each company we use that lens as well, as a corporate. CHARLES: What I'm hearing is that you want to invest… I guess the thing is you can experience return that's not just cash. It's not just dollars. You'll experience return in raising the ocean of the business that GE is in, right? So… SAM: You said it much better than I did. [Laughter] CHARLES: Well, it's all… paraphrasing is actually easy. [Laughter] ERICK: Oh, yeah. SAM: An important skill. CHARLES: That makes a lot of sense. So, the question I have then is, you said you were looking for companies that kind of swim in a specific ocean. And each company is farther along. Are you usually finding this company I want to work with, like you are going out and finding them? Or they're coming to you looking for investment? Or is it really just, depends. SAM: So, we call that part of the process sourcing, sourcing investments. And they come from all over. So for us, there are a few different ways. One is we tend to be thesis-driven. Meaning we go out and we say, the world is changing in this way and therefore we're interested in this kind of company. And so, we'll proactively go out and research. We're also, I mentioned, a little later stage. So, I don't tend to do seed investments. I tend to do ‘Series A' and more often ‘Series B' and later. So, companies that have often already raised a seed round or raised a ‘Series A' round. So, I can actually search databases to say, “Okay, in the last two years who has raised a seed round or ‘Series A' round and these other things I'm looking for whether it be location or tied to investors or other things.” So, that's one way of being proactive is saying I want to go out and look for companies in this space that look like this. And that can be either like I mentioned, desktop research like searching the web, searching databases. Or it can be just going to conferences, right? So, on thing we spend a lot of time on in the IoT world is artificial intelligence and machine learning. It's been a big, big topic over the last year that a lot of people have invested in. So, we may go to different conferences that focus on that topic, meet lots of people that are working on it. Some companies, some individuals that are either investing in or advising their companies. And we'll talk to them. What companies are rising out of that space that we should be looking at? What technologies are changing in that space that we should be thinking about? And just trying to get smarter so that we can make the right investments and help the right companies find their way to work with GE and make our products better and help them advance their own enterprise. CHARLES: Are you investing with a mind that eventually GE might acquire this company and integrate it into GE itself? Or is it really just, “Hey, we're just going to take a part of it. We're going to have maybe a seat on the board to be able to steer a little bit. But we're pretty much going to let it be its own thing with its own autonomy and go where it was and just benefit through those secondary and tertiary effects.” SAM: Yeah, acquisitions from our portfolio by GE happened. But they're certainly not the explicit goal or our focus. I know we've had one, maybe two of our portfolio companies acquired by GE, one that I was directly working with called Bit Stew. So, we made the investment in the company. It was with the goal of using their data management platform for a lot of our applications. And at some point in working with GE and GE Digital, they decided, you know, this would make sense to be a part of GE. That wasn't why we made the investment. But it did end up being acquired by GE. And I know the team is doing really well. And it's been at GE for about a year now. So, it does happen. But when I said one or two, that's versus a portfolio of a hundred plus companies. CHARLES: Right. SAM: Since we started investing. And so, that's not what we're looking to do every time. Much more often it's about again, how does the company make GE more competitive and a better company, a better place to work. And then how do we help them advance their goals? Whether it be bringing them developers, or finding them other routes to market, or just being a customer. CHARLES: Right. SAM: So, that's really how we think about strategic value. There's a lot of different ways to create it. CHARLES: Yeah, I'm curious. Because it seems like also in a lot of these companies you're investing in potential competitors. Extensively you're operating if not in the exact same market, maybe very similar markets. There's a little bit of overlap. And so, you're kind of investing in potential competitors, right? So, where's the balance of here we're funding our competitors versus we're going to move into these markets ourselves. SAM: Yeah, and funding of “competitors” can happen. I think that we talk about that more in theory and say, “Oh sure, we'd be willing to fund a company that's out disrupting the space that we're playing in.” And we do that. It's rare that you see startups that are directly head-on competing with much more established companies like GE or other industrials or even other consumer companies. They don't take these companies head-on because that's not a way that startups have been successful in the past, right? We talk much more about disruption and saying, how is this company doing something that may indirectly compete with GE? So, you think about things like, for anybody that's not familiar with GE… actually, a lot of people associate us with our appliances which we actually don't manufacture anymore. That's [inaudible]. [Chuckles] SAM: We sold that business a few years ago. Almost everything we sell is like big, heavy industrial equipment. So, we sell aircraft engines, locomotives. We sell gas turbines, wind turbines. So, here and there a couple of things that do power generation. One trend that's affecting that industry is distributed generation of energy, energy storage. And those are parts of the market that are a less significant part of GE's business than say, heavy-duty gas turbines that sit in a power plant and generate a massive amount of power. And so, if you look at that and say, “Wow, GE Ventures is out funding storage companies. Does that mean they're funding competitors?” Well, it means that we're funding innovation that may disrupt the future of our business, but that's part of being a VC and that's part of the value that GE Ventures brings to GE. CHARLES: Right. SAM: We're out there looking at markets before they're large enough or in scope for GE. CHARLES: Mmhmm, right. And so, yes you're disrupting the space but then you're going to be a part of that disruption and have strong connections to those markets if you need to actually migrate your business completely over to them. That's kind of what I'm hearing. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. Better to disrupt yourself, right? CHARLES: [Chuckles] SAM: And be a part of the ecosystem in the future because I think the future happens with or without you. And it's really key that we get out in front of it and a part of that, a part of that discussion, a part of that process. CHARLES: And so now, you've been saying that this is, GE, this has been pretty explosive? There's a lot more happening through GE Ventures. There's a lot more happening in other companies globally, having these corporate ventures. Where do you think the balance is going to lie to say, “Hey,” I'm just going to throw out some numbers, just for theory here, it's like, “10% of our business is essentially this distributed network of semi-autonomous or mostly autonomous startups. And then we have our core business.” Does that stabilize at 50/50? Does it stabilize at 75% the other way with GE essentially becoming a capital management company? Or is it somewhere in the middle? SAM: So, GE Ventures will never be a meaningful part of GE's revenue, a meaningful part of its business as a percentage. The overall venture industry is full of funds that are on the order of like, bigger funds are on the order of, in the billions. The single-digit billions. And GE itself is a much, much larger company. Well over a hundred billion dollars in enterprise value. So, I think GE Ventures will always be a small part of the company financially. And the impact will be largely felt through how we help the rest of GE navigate the future. ERICK: You said that sometimes you go and look for companies, startups to invest in or sometimes startups come to you or come to a VC looking for funding. Now, I'm a developer or a startup founder. And I'm going to look for funding. What are some of the mistakes or pitfalls that you see that startup founders or people with an idea fall into when looking for funding that you can help them avoid? SAM: Yeah, and we do see companies that come to us. So, I mentioned a lot about how I go out looking for companies based on a thesis or a set of relevant factors or relevant things for GE. But we do have a number of inbound requests. People know some of the bigger VC brands. They know GE the big company. So, we do get inbound interest and we also get referrals from networks of VCs and some are employees and other things. But for the companies that are seeking us out, the ones that are going out looking for funding, there are some things that are really well-known in Silicon Valley and other places, or you could research online and find, but may not be obvious at first. And so, I think the first one is, who are you talking to? What investors are you seeking out? Depending on what stage you're at, what kind of business you're in, you have to understand what the landscape of potential investors are and which ones might be interested in a company like yours. So, I think there are tons of good mentors that can help people navigate that. Maybe less commonly outside of Silicon Valley, in Boston, New York, in the places where you have traditional venture ecosystems. But you see a ton of resources available online whether it be things like Fred Wilson's blog, AVC.com, or Crunchbase, TechCrunch. You can read and understand and from headlines tell what people care about. And I think that's fundamentally a really important first step. You don't want to waste an hour talking to somebody who will never… this is somebody that invests in really late-stage growth equity companies and I'm coming to them for my first investment. That's not going to work. So, I think finding the right people, step one. I think when you're going through the process of pitching and talking about your business, the pitfalls are all about understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your business and where you are today. And so, for every company, that's different. But I think just being open and honest versus glossing over a lot of the risks, these are all really risky companies. If they were easy, then you'd have a lot more competition. And so… [Laughter] SAM: I think that's one thing that I see, too. You have some company that comes in and say, “Look, here are the parts I've figured out and here are the parts I still have to figure out.” And that's a really good conversation to have. There are other companies where they say, “Look, we've figured the whole thing out. We just want you to give us some money.” And I don't think a lot of investors necessarily buy into that. And certainly, there are investors of every stripe. So, I may be speaking too broadly. But I think that's a really important part of the venture investment process, right? You're looking not just for money but also for counsel and for somebody that you're going to work with over the next, sometimes seven years or longer. CHARLES: Yeah. SAM: [Inaudible] going to be on your board and participating. So, it's a really important part. CHARLES: So, you're looking, you're actually looking not necessarily for all the answers but you're looking for the questions that they're asking, too. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. And demonstrating they understand the ins and outs of the business. And that they have the capacity to carry this onto that next stage and hopefully beyond. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, now you said something that caught my interest there that you work with some people sometimes seven years. You enter into these long relationships. Do you generally ever do any type of, I want to say almost like… mentoring might be too strong of a word, but in the pre-investment, in other words before you actually invest in a company, do you ever work with them to prepare them for investment to say, “Hey, I think there's potential here. Work on A, B, and C and then let's talk.” And you have this image in your mind. You go, you pitch to an investor, and it's either thumbs up or it's like thumbs down and you never talk to them again. Versus, is there some ground in between where there's a conversation that evolves that eventually ends up in an investment being made? SAM: Absolutely. I think one of the parts of this industry is even when I'm not an investor in a company, I may know a company and say, “It's not a fit for me for GE Ventures but I still think that we can provide help.” It's one of the things I love about tech and about venture in general, is that people are often willing to pitch in, even when they don't have a direct financial incentive. And so, I see that a lot whether it's helping a company where we've met them and we later see an opportunity and say, “Oh, you should go and talk to this company or that company.” And then often, we may see a company that's pitching us ahead of where we would typically invest. Maybe they're looking for a ‘Series A' but given the space that they're in or what we're doing at the moment, it may not be the right time for us. And so, we'll continue to track along and keep up and get updates. Some companies do a really good job of actually providing proactive updates and sending out monthly or quarterly reports to investors they've met with before. I think there's a wide range of ways that founders do this. But it is a really good way to keep people interested in the prize. And then when you come back and say, “Hey, now I'm out raising my ‘Series B',” that's not a surprise. I knew that you were hitting these milestones, that you were doing everything you said you were going to do. And you've demonstrated a level of credibility that really adds to the pitch that you made the first time around. ERLICK: You said something, metrics. So, a venture capitalist, after they make an investment, what are some of the expectations that they may hold this startup that they just invested in… what are those expectations that they may hold them accountable for? Or those metrics that they'll be looking at? SAM: Yeah, so I think some of the really high-level ones that are common across businesses, generally growth is a really big one. So, I almost said revenue. But I wanted to caveat… [Laughter] SAM: And say growth could mean different things. It could mean number of developers. It could mean number of downloads if you're an app. It depends on what the business is. But I think growth is a huge one. Growth is a really important, that top line, that's what's going to drive a lot of the value in the business. And then below that, demonstrating that you can hit the milestones around things like margins. So, how profitable is each unit you're selling? Or how profitable is each customer? And lastly, how are you doing managing your spend? So, that's great that you're earning the right amount of money for each customer, but are you doing it by… do you have a massive number of employees and offices and all the things that are too expensive to allow you to use your money wisely as you reach the next stage? And so, those are the big milestones. It's really just growth, margins, and operating cost or burn rate as we call it. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, that sounds like a lot of work to actually evaluate these companies. Do you do your due diligence once you've already moved in pretty solidly into the process? SAM: Yeah, these processes can move really fast. And depending on the timing, generally it's, you jump in, you learn as much as you can, as fast as you can, and you make a decision so the company can move on. I'll say there's a lot of work that goes into considering and deciding which companies to spend more time on, both for us and for them. We don't want to waste a company's time evaluating, going through more meetings, if it's not a really strong candidate for us. Because they could be spending that time better with other investors who are a better fit. And I'm not going to pretend to like the evaluation part. I have a lot of respect for the amount of not just work but of a person's energy and really, their life goes into these companies. And so, I think the hard part is building the company. And so, it's hard for me to say that evaluating is a hard part. I'm trying to understand as much as I possibly can in a month or two. I'm not going to know as much about the business as the founder does. And I'll be wrong a lot. I may miss something and not understand, whether it's because I don't see the market but it's there or because I have some underlying assumption about the way things should work that they don't meet. And I think that that's something that investors have to come to grips with. You try and get as smart as you can as fast as you can, but you're not always going to get to the right answer. ERLICK: You said that it was growth, spend, and profits were some of the metrics. That is almost all of the essential components of a business plan. I remember one time, one of our previous conversations, you emphasized how important it was for companies, or even at just a simple startup, to put together a basic business plan. Is that something that you can elaborate on a little? SAM: Yeah. So, most companies show up with a pitch deck. So, they have a set of PowerPoint slides and then they have a set of materials behind that where if you go deeper into an area they may have a white paper about their technology and they may have an Excel financial model that explains why they have these expectations about what growth and margins and all those things will look like. So, there are all of those pieces that come together into a business plan. The business plan could be written or it could be that PowerPoint. But very traditionally, it's a PowerPoint or some kind of presentation that is shared in person. There's usually a version that's sent in advance to confirm that the company and the investors should meet. And then once you clear that bar, there's a deeper presentation that often you'll give to either one or a set or a whole team of investors. And you'll go through and explain why it is you think this is a good investment opportunity for them and why you'd like to work together. And then you have a discussion about whether that's a good fit, about some of the underlying assumptions, and come to either a set of next steps for the diligence or a decision that it's not the right fit, it's not the right time to take the relationship further with more diligence and that kind of stuff. ERLICK: Yeah, because I see… well, I know a few people that have startup ideas and they kind of put the business plan on the back burner and put the actual prototype more at the forefront. They say, “Oh, we can worry about the business plan later.” [Laughs] SAM: [Chuckles] Well, I think… there's something to be said to that. There's something to be said for product and growth winning. So if you… Let's start at the early stages. If you have something that's working and that's really obvious, you may not need a… ERLICK: True. SAM: To go raise money. It all comes down to, do you have enough to get enough investors interested to raise the round that you want to raise? Because you want to have enough investors involved, enough demand, that you can be selective about who you want to work with and on what terms, right? So, what valuation and how much of the company am I giving them, and all of those things. So, if you can do all of those things with nothing but an app and one chart that shows a hockey stick of growth, that's awesome. CHARLES: You're hot. [Laughter] SAM: Often it does require much more and a much longer plan. So, even if you say, “Look, it's growing like crazy,” there's usually some set of questions behind that. So, that's great. Your free app is growing like crazy. How are you going…? [Laughter] SAM: To get paid for that? And you'll talk about that. And you'll say, “Here are the things we're planning on doing,” or here are the assumptions that we're making. And the more original, the more unique the business model is, the more discussion and explanation that may require. And that's where the business plan and a pitch deck come in handy, because it's a really good presentation aide or pre-reading to get to that answer faster. ERLICK: So, this evaluation it seems, is a two-way street. The VCs evaluating the company and also the company or the startup evaluating the VC to know whether it's going to be a good relationship. SAM: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the best companies have choice. They have a number of investors who are interested in funding them. And certainly, that might be different at different stages or at different times, depending on what's going on in the economy and in tech and in other places. But generally, VC is a very competitive industry. I'm trying to sell my money and services as an investor versus other options that you have. And so, while it's maybe not as competitive as only one of us can buy the company like in an M&A situation. There are often more than one investor. There's still a very intense set of competition around, okay, who's going to be involved in the deal? How much money will they be able to invest? So, that's something that really can come in handy for founders. ERLICK: And what was that you just said there? M&A situation? SAM: Oh, sorry. When a company is being bought. So, when a company is being bought, it can look kind of like a fundraising process, but instead of selling a part of a company, you're selling the whole thing. And so, in that case, obviously it's a competitive situation where there's only one winner. And this is a different process. Often, the rounds that we're a part of, we're not… we're buying a minority stake just like any VC. We may be buying 5% of a company, 10% of a company. And often we're being joined by other venture investors. We really actually commonly partner with the institutional firms and they'll take a board seat. We'll invest alongside them and be an observer on the board and provide counsel. And so, it is a very competitive process. And that, while M&A is a winner-take-all, there is one buyer who is ultimately going to own this company going forward, the investing process for a venture is much more collaborative. But it is still competitive, because there can only be so many investors in one company. CHARLES: And you want to choose the right one on both… the right set. Alright. Well, I think we're running up against time. This has been a fascinating conversation into an aspect of our industry that really is providing the fuel that drives so much of this forward. So, I guess I'll close by asking you, already talked about Resin. We had them on the podcast. We love them. Are there any conferences or products that you're investing in that you feel like our audience might want to know about or anything like that? SAM: Well one, you mentioned Resin. CHARLES: Yeah. SAM: I know you guys have been a good friend to them and Elrick and I met at their hackathon. I would recommend to anybody, go try it out. It's a really cool way to play with hardware products. I am not a developer and I required a lot of help from Elrick at the hackathon. [Laughter] SAM: But at the same time, it is something that almost anybody can pull out of a box and start playing with. So, I think that's a great one. The episode you did on them were fantastic. So, I really enjoyed those ones. I'd say in general, I'm always out looking to meet new companies that are going to benefit from working with GE. I spend a lot of my time not just trying to invest but also trying to find partnerships for companies that we're looking at within GE, either selling to us or working with us. And so, if somebody thinks that there's an opportunity to do that, then I encourage them to reach out. Because I think there's a ton of opportunity. It's a really big company that really has a ton of opportunity for other partners. CHARLES: Alright. If they wanted to reach out, how would they get in touch with you? SAM: Yeah, I think maybe the best way to initially make contact, I tend to be pretty active on Twitter. So, my handle is just @SamCates. S-A-M-C-A-T-E-S. And you can also learn more through our website. If you're curious about some of the businesses I mentioned, so just GEVentures.com. And it's about to go through a whole refresh. So, go check it out. CHARLES: Alright. Well, fantastic. We will definitely look for that. And for everybody else, you can get in touch with us on Twitter at @TheFrontside or send us a line at info@frontside.io. Thank you everybody for listening. Thank so, so much Sam, for being on the podcast. SAM: Yeah, of course. It was a blast. I'm a big podcast fan and I've really enjoyed catching up on your episodes. CHARLES: Ah, and thank you Elrick, always. ERICK: It was great. SAM: Elrick, when you finish building your Raspberry Pi Battleships, I want to play. CHARLES: [Laughs] ERICK: Oh, yes. Yes. It's in the works, man. It's in progress. SAM: Alright, I'm waiting. CHARLES: Alright. Well, take it easy, everybody.

SAM: It is of supreme importance -- Luke: that we get our image of Jesus -- BOTH: RIGHT! SAM: There are too many blithering idiots - LUKE: Well meaning people! SAM: Religious nuts! LUKE: Church leaders – denominational and institutional hierarchies! SAM: Conservatives & Literalists! LUKE: Bleeding Heart Liberals and Socialists SAM: Political Elitists LUKE: Wacko revolutionaries! ALL: Who are leading people ASTRAY!! SAM: So listen carefully – JESUS ALL: As we ALL know LUKE: Came from a model family -- SAM: What?! His mother was pregnant when she got married! LUKE: And lived in a secure and loving home. SAM: They were refugees – his parents had an arranged marriage! LUKE: He had a wondrous childhood… SAM: About which we know nothing! LUKE: He was mild and obedient – a holy child! SAM: He ran away when he was 12… was gone for 3 days – and didn’t feel much remorse! LUKE: He spoke with love and compassion to all. SAM: He was rude to his mother more than once – and said “You’re not my father” to his step-father. LUKE: Jesus was the model working man. SAM: Doing what? He was impoverished, never held a job that we know of. Ran around with the wrong crowd and kept company with sinners and criminals! LUKE: He was a model capitalist and encouraged entrepreneurship in others. SAM: He told Peter, Andrew, James, John and Matthew to give up their jobs and leave their families. LUKE: He kept good company SAM: I think we’ve been around this bend! LUKE: He had a good word for everybody. SAM: If you think “vipers, blind guides and “hypocrites” are compliments! LUKE: His conversation was deep and centered on the finer things in life, SAM: bread and dough, sheep, pig farming, prostitutes for dinner, tax collectors for lunch. LUKE: He never dabbled with controversy. SAM: He just claimed to be the Son of God – and urged people not to support their government or obey their parents or their religious leaders! LUKE: Jesus never upset anyone! SAM: with the simple exception of priests, Pharisees, pigeon sellers, the wealthy, the religious, the Roman government, and anyone who suggested that they might know how to live a pious life! LUKE: He was respected in religious circles SAM: Which must be why they plotted to have him arrested and killed! LUKE: Jesus was a man among men SAM: And women! LUKE: He was a man of God. SAM: He was a man who called himself the Son of Humanity! LUKE: In his majesty we see God at work SAM: In his humility we see God in person! LUKE: That’s why he was worshipped and adored! SAM: That’s why he was tortured and crucified! LUKE: Jesus isn’t here now SAM: He rose on the third day. LUKE: So we have to wait until he comes again. SAM: But he sent his example to guide us. LUKE: He will bring the Kingdom of God with him. SAM: We have to celebrate his love and acceptance! LUKE: We have to save souls and tell people where they are sinning! SAM: We need to look at our own lives and find the path to good and grace. LUKE: We need to be religious leaders! SAM: We need to be faithful followers! LUKE: We need to stand up and be counted! SAM: Humbly! LUKE: Onward – Christian soldiers! SAM: Onward – Peaceful servants! LUKE: We are a mighty army! SAM: We are the Body of Christ! LUKE: It is of supreme importance -- SAM: That we get our image of Jesus – ALL: RIGHT

特别感谢热心听友王佳云帮忙听写本篇文稿Heyang: Recently a female customer hit the jackpot worth 260 thousand Yuan, but was denied access to the money. The woman filed a lawsuit, asking the company to give her the prize, but the court dismissed her claim. Why is that?What’s going on here? Luo Yu: Well, this incident actually happened on last year but serves as a very good reminder for the upcoming 2016 Spring Festival. So around the beginning of 2015 a company launched a lottery on its website saying anyone who bought this product was over 100,000 yuan could participate in the jackpot and there are five levels of prizes and the top prize was a BMW car and the second prize was a cheque of 260,000 yuan. And Miss Wang fortunately got the second prize. However, the company refused to give her the cheque. And Wang had to file the lawsuit to local company and asking it to pay the money. However, the court turned down Wang’s claim because the raffle was invalid and illegal.Sam: Well, that was half the story. So first of all the raffle was invalid because according to law in China and we are talking of the Law of the People's Republic of China for Countering Unfair Competition Article 13 An operator shall not make any of the following kinds of sales with prizes attached if there are more than 5,000 yuan. There was also another minor detail that was addressed by the court that said that the woman’s name wasn’t on the receipt. So there is also no direct proof that she had paid for the goods that she could make the argument that she found the receipt or she fabricated it. These are all possibilities. So although it’s not the main bulk we are gonna be talking about on this story I just wanna quickly be say on a side note this is another reason that why we should be using our mobile payments. I mean I’ve been pushing quite a lot on the show recently but the fact that there was⋯Heyang: Why is this has anything to do with the mobile payments? The digital trail?Sam: The digital trail would make it a lot easier in terms of the court process information and it shows why we should be using digital payments. It’s one reason on the long list of reasons that we should be doing so. Heyang is giving me that ‘Sam, move on’ face. I just wanted to quickly mention it。Heyang: Thanks for reading my face in my mind. Even if with digital payment that woman would still be denied the access of money and the court would still rule against her because what the law says very clearly about it is⋯ Did I hear a 5000 yuan limit that Sam just talked about. Let’s say when a shop makes this promotional tactic that is you buy an item and then you are eligible for a lucky draw. And that draw, the promotional tactic, can’t be more than 5000 yuan of worth. That’ s what the law says pretty much.Luo Yu: In 1993.Sam: So the law hasn’t be amended since. Has it?Luo Yu: It hasn’t been amended at all.Sam: So that means it should still be 5000 yuan.Luo Yu: Amendment or modification is definitely required here I think. You know that the figure for 1993. Probably 5000 is a big amount of money then. But now with 5000 yuan you couldn’t even buy an iPhone 6. From 100,000 to 200,000 probably is at the right range.Sam: Twenty grand (pounds), that’s a lot of money!Heyang: But don’t you think that the biggest piece of the puzzle or of the discussion that has been missing out of this is why is there no liability of the company. Because, fine, I can understand that the woman can’t get the money because she entered a lottery or you know this promotional event that is deemed illegal and should be annulled. I can understand that part. But it isn’t the company’s fault and the company should be sued. It started a promotional event like this that is deemed illegal.Luo Yu: Yeah, I think the company should be punished. Let’s talk about the promotional tactics that the company has launched during this festival. I think a lot of people have been participated in this incident but they are not quite sure about you know which amount is legally protected by Chinese law. So the company has to make some certain compensation for the woman here.Sam: I know it’s a bad story but at the same time an example should be made as far as I am concerned. If it was me I would make them pay out the full price to the woman. And it’s OK as we promised the 260,000 yuan as far as I am concerned that’s the contract. So first of all you are going to give her that money and then we’ll talk about what we are gonna doing in terms of revoking your license or possibly fining you further. Or even implementing a prison sentence of some kind. I would make as big an example of them as humanly possible. And then all the other competitors in the industry will be like damn, Let’s not do anything illegal because it looks like they are coming down quite hard on us.Heyang: Yes, this time I kind of agree with Sam and it’ll be nice if you are the judge for this lawsuit. And also I like to talk a little bit more about you know it’s Spring Festival period a lot of people are going to be shopping after Chinese New Year’s eve. It is the promotional period for a lot of shopping malls. What should people be aware of? We are gonna see a lot of promotional things going on and make sure that people don’t be taken advantage of it. Luo Yu: First of all, almost please look at the price tag of the product if you win a lottery if the product exceeds 5000. You can never get it if you win it.Sam: Secondly I would make I would say one last time. If you are buying stuff and there is a promotion there try and pay with online mobile payment because you a better record of the fact that you’ve purchased this item and it will help you avoid such complications in the future. Last time I’m gonna suggest that.Heyang: OK, of today. And certainly get the receipt that’s always necessary I think.Luo Yu: Receipt is definitely. I mean even if you would destroy the receipt.Heyang: I’ve got it it’s gonna be the last time. OK, I think the moral out of that story was payment method that the two words I will not reiterate.

非常感谢热心听众【Maggie-吕欣欣】对本文稿的贡献The Spring Festival is around the corner. An old question that has been brought up again for many couples is whose home should they go back for Spring Festival? 春节就要到了，对于很多夫妻和情侣来说，一个老问题又摆在了眼前。春节到底应该回谁家过年呢？ Heyang: So going home for Spring Festival or the Chinese New Year, that’s the most important moment for family reunion in China. Why is it sometimes a little bit of a difficult question to take the answer for couples?Sam: For first of all, I think on this topic, me, Heyang and Luo Yu are probably the three most unqualified people to talk about it, because I’m the lonely “老外 that can’t go back to England because it’s too far and it would be too much effort for the sake of the week. And you guys are both from Beijing right, which means you don’t travel on Chinese New Eve anyway.Heyang: Oh Sam I can’t believe that you didn’t pick up that very important piece of information about Luo Yu because you guys are good friends. Luo Yu is not from Beijing.Sam: Really? Where are you from, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: I was born in Xinjiang and raised in Xinjiang as well.Heyang: [We should pretty much…talks about everything on the show.]Sam: Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region?Luo Yu: You’re joking.Sam: I’m not joking. You have a thick Beijing accent.Luo Yu: Are you my best friend, Sam?Sam: But you’ve got a thick Beijing accent when you speak.Luo Yu: No, I don’t have a thick Beijing accent. Heyang does.Heyang: It’s hardly thick, Luo Yu. Mine, well, a little bit. Yes, I was hoping that you wouldn’t highlight this fact.Sam: From Beijing [I’m actually about that?](Luo Yu: But even…)Heyang: Yes, Luo Yu, you’re gonna say?Luo Yu: But even speaking of which, I think Sam hasn’t highlighted the right thing.Heyang: I thought we were in the same camp (Luo Yu: We are.), the singleton’s camp. So stop, you know, highlighting that fact. Well, now the cat is out of the bag, let’s just talk about it then. You haven’t answered the question for me. Why is it a bit of a big deal and a hard decision for couples?Luo Yu: So well Heyang and me don’t have this current question because we are both single and fabulous【注：Single and Fabulous化用《欲望都市》S02E04 即“单身贵族” 呼应赫扬的’the singleton’s camp’】. But when you are happily involved in a lot of family affairs with your lovely spouse, you have to decide this very important issue. Is it your mother’s house or your husband’s mother’s house to visit?Heyang: For the Spring Festival.Sam: So let me give a couple of details other way here. First of all, Luo Yu, you were just on a really big TV show where you meet that special someone so we have a chat coming later on today (Heyang: Oh, dear). And secondly, am I right in saying that in china there’s a tradition here of the girls usually going back to the boy’s house as a sign of respect and if the guy doesn’t take the girl home and has to go to the girl’s house, it kind of demoralizes to a certain extent. Is that right?Heyang: Well usually I think the tradition is, especially if you’re married, then it’s usually the wife would go to the husband’s mom’s home to celebrate the Chinese New Year.Luo Yu: Yes, as the society has been evolving all the time, I think both husband and wife have become breadwinners of the family. So I think they have been quarreling about this case.Heyang: Why does earning money, been financially independent have anything to do with quarreling about who should go to whoever’s house? (Sam: Wait)Luo Yu: Because traditionally we think ‘嫁鸡随鸡 嫁狗随狗’, given that you don’t have financial independence. You are not the breadwinner. Now as the wife, you are financially independent and you can also make the right choice to visit your family first. (Sam: That’s quite bad.)Heyang: Oh my, that’s a little…What he said is going to start more wars at home and that’s exactly what we don’t want to happen.Sam: I’ve got…I have a few more questions. So let’s just say for example…You’re from Xinjiang right (Luo Yu: Right). Heyang’s from Beijing. Let’s say you two are dating (Heyang: Stop using people in this studio as example). So Heyang and Luo Yu are dating and they both work in Shanghai (Heyang: Oh dear what?) Is it a tour possible for you to get your parents to go from Xinjiang to Shanghai and you get your parents to go from Beijing to Shanghai? And they then just all meet where you guys reside and then everyone’s happy.Heyang: That’s too beautiful a picture. I don’t want to imagine. (Sam: But is that possible?)What do you want to say, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: First you have to have a very big mansion to occupy those four parents.Sam: We stay in a hotel. Everyone live in Shanghai. So it’s gonna be…Everyone…Luo Yu: That’s really a pathetic picture. You invite both of the parents coming from Xinjiang and Beijing to Shanghai, then you settle them down in a hotel?Sam: Ok I got a second option. I got a second option. Heyang and her parents, Luo Yu and his parents all buy plane tickets and they go on holidays to Thailand or Sanya. Will that work?Luo Yu: That’s…What do you say, Heyang? I agree with his idea.Heyang: I don’t agree with this idea (Luo Yu: Why?! Sam: I can see you are thinking about it Luo Yu.)Heyang: No he’s not, not like I can read his mind but no, he’s not and…(Sam: You guys are really in sync. Couple sync) And I’m in sync with you too, you know, this is Round Table. (Sam: It’s different but yeah) Okay okay, let’s get back on track. I think that is one suggestion that makes sense that these days if you have the financial means, you don’t have to have the big mansion, but you need to have a place for two set of parents to come together I think that’s really nice if you can afford that because these days a lot of us are the single child, the only child of your family. So I would hate it that one day if I get married to someone and I would have to leave my parents at home on this special day. What do you think, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: So my advice is quite simple: Earn as much money as you can and bring your four parents. You go to Maldives, go to Thailand Phuket, go to Saipan, go to all those beautiful resorts on beautiful islands.Sam: Sounds really nice. Heyang you are a lucky girl.Heyang: It has nothing to do with me. And if it was two people who go on holiday because they’re good friends, it should be Luo Yu and Sam.

Sam: So Liz, are you going to go to the doctor, or do I have to take you myself? Liz: Yes, yes, I'm planning on going. You don't have to force me; believe me, I feel terrible. Sam: Well, you look terrible. Liz: Oh thanks! That makes me feel better. Sam: You know what I mean. Look, you've had a temperature for two days, you have a sore throat, and you have no energy. If I were you, I would go immediately. Liz: Yes, I suppose you're right. It's just that.... Sam: What? Liz: I hate hospitals, and clinics, and needles, and pills.... Sam: So do I. I don't even like smell of hospitals, but what choice do you have? If you delay seeing a doctor, you might end up with an infection. And you know what that means. Liz: Yes, antibiotics. Okay, you've convinced me. I'll call and make an appointment.   Join me on my FACEBOOK page called Anna Fromacupofenglish; you're all welcome. Send your questions and comments to .  Please rate my app or buy it by clicking the link. // //   //