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Buckland Wood is no ordinary wood. This is magical temperate rainforest, a rare habitat not just in the UK but in the world. Cloaked in lush lichens and mosses, dotted with stone walls and bridges and with a beautiful river rambling through, it already looks and feels like a special place. But the Trust has big plans for its future. Join us to explore with rainforest guru Sam, who tells us about the bid to restore this globally important site and its huge potential to connect people with nature, store carbon and boost biodiversity. Hear why temperate rainforests are so special, along with pine marten reintroductions, backpacks on beetles and much more! Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.  Adam: For today's woodland walk, we are heading into the rainforest, but I am not going very far. Well, I'm going quite far, but not to the Amazon, or South America. I'm going to to the temperate rainforest, which isn't as well known, but is actually even rarer than the tropical rainforest. It's also known as Atlantic or Celtic rainforest. And as I said, exceptionally rare. You do find it on the West Coast of Scotland, North and West Wales, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, parts of Northern Ireland, which sounds like a long list, but it really isn't. And what's wonderful actually is that Britain is really the place in the world to find these things. We have a very high proportion of the global area of temperate rainforest. I'm heading to Devon to see some temperate rainforests. Anyway, enough from me. Let's go talk to an expert about Devon's temperate and exciting rainforest.  Sam: So I'm Sam Manning. I'm the project officer for the Woodland Trust Rainforest Recovery Project. We are here in Buckland Wood, which is a new Woodland Trust acquisition on Dartmoor in the Dart Valley.  Adam: Fantastic. And it's it's super new because the place we came down didn't seem to have a sign on it or anything. So when did the Trust acquire this?  Sam: So we've literally just acquired this this month and it's an extension really of two other sites that we own in the Dart Valley, Ausewell Wood, which we bought about five years ago and Grey Park Wood, which we've owned for a couple of decades.  Adam: Right. And and what are we gonna do? Where are you taking me today?  Sam: So we're going to have a walk around the wood and I'm going to show you some of the aspects of the restoration work that we have planned here, we're going to go down to the Dart River, which is a really special river. It's 26 miles long. Very, very ecologically biodiverse, very important for, in terms of temperate rainforest, and look at how we can restore that through various different natural flood management methods.  Adam: Right. Lead on, Sir. So you already mentioned the keyword temperate rainforest. Is that what this is?  Sam: Yeah. So this is sort of prime what we call hyper-oceanic temperate rainforest.  Adam: You just have to say that slowly. Hypo what?  Sam: Hyper-oceanic.   Adam: Hyper-oceanic, OK.  Sam: Yes. So there's there's two different kinds of temperate rainforest broadly. There's southern oceanic, which is any rainforest woodland that receives over 1.5 metres of rainfall a year.  Adam: Right.  Sam: Or hyper-oceanic and that is 1.8 metres of rainfall and above, so slightly techy and scientific. But what it means is is that you get two distinctly different communities of lichens or lower plants, which is what makes these woodlands particularly special.  Adam: Sorry, I've already forgotten. Are we in the rain type of temperate rainforest that gets more rain or less rain?  Sam: More rain.  Adam: More rain.   Sam: Yeah it rains a lot here.   Adam: So that's the the non-oceanic one gets more rain.  Sam: The hyper-oceanic gets a lot of rain, yeah.  Adam: Hyper-oceanic. OK, so you can see I'm a poor student. OK. So, but luckily extraordinary, I mean, it's a bit there's a chill, but it's it has been lovely weather and it's definitely dry today.  Sam: Hmm yeah, this is this is quite strange for Dartmoor really, I think this is sort of the driest March in 60 years or something. So we are we are beginning to experience much, much drier springs and summers, but one of the functions of these rainforests is they are very, very good at producing their own rain and and in 2020, during the COVID lockdown, there was a real blue sky dry sort of drought level day in that March-April period. And I remember walking through this valley in the middle of the day and there was a thunderstorm and that was occurring nowhere else even in Devon or the wider country. And that's because they're effectively these sponges that accumulate a lot of rain in winter, store them, and then produce them more in summer.  Adam: Wow. And and I mean also we we think of rainforests as basically Brazil I suppose. But but we have temperate rainforests in the UK and my understanding is, I mean, they're extraordinarily rare on a, not just the UK, a global level. Just give us a sense of how special and unusual these environments are.  Sam: Yeah, that's right. So they're they're found only on 1% of the earth's land surface. So they are rarer by area than tropical rainforest.  Adam: Right. Do you happen to know? Sorry, are we going down there?   Sam: Down there yeah.   Adam: OK, so 1% temperate rainforests. Do you know what tropical rainforests are to give us a sense of proportion?  Sam: I actually don't know that, but I suspect it's probably around somewhere between 10-15%.  Adam: OK, well, I'm not gonna hold you to that *both laugh* but but that gives us a sort of sense of just how rare these are and tropical rainforests are fairly rare anyway, but OK. So these are very, very unusual environments. And what are you trying to do here then?  Sam: Well, a lot of these temperate rainforests are ancient woodlands, but they are plantations on ancient woodlands, so they are woodlands that have existed in perpetuity for as long as records go back. But a lot of them, as you can see here, have been coniferised, so they would have been cleared of their native tree species like oak, to be replaced by non-native timber crops from places like the Pacific Northwest, which which that's also ironically a temperate rainforest landscape, but those species are not co-adapted to the species we have here. So you you get these plantations that are very, very unbiodiverse, very dark, very shading and really don't work in tandem with a lot of the light-demanding rainforest species that we have, like rowans, hawthorns, oaks, that kind of thing. Of those sites I've talked about, almost half of it is conifer.  Adam: So your your first job, ironically, is to take trees out?  Sam: Well there'll be a sort of two-pronged approach really of using natural processes to diversify the forest, make it more structured, diverse. But we will need to intervene at certain times, particularly if we have really, really rare species. So in Ausewell for example, there's a species of lichen called bacidia subturgidula, so it's got a mad Latin name,   Adam: Wow, OK I'm definitely not saying that *laughs*  Sam: *laughs* But that species, for example, we have a quarter of the entire world's population of that species of lichen in Ausewell.  Adam: Right in Ausewell, which is quite a small place.  Sam: Yeah, exactly. That's about 100 hectares, so...  Adam: And that's a quarter of the global population of this lichen is in that...  Sam: Of that species, yeah. So when it comes to that, it's really about almost surgically intervening.  Adam: That's interesting. Let's let's carry on, you you better lead on, I've no idea where I'm going. So but that's interesting because I I can see planting trees, I've never heard of people actually planting like them, I didn't think that was even possible.  Sam: Yeah. So we call it translocation and and that's really only a last a last sort of nuclear option really when it comes to lichen conservation, if we have a tree where they have a really, really rare form of, a rare population of a species, then moving that to another tree may be the difference between that going extinct or not. But here now we've had this happen, what we're going to be doing is seeding it with those rainforest tree species to start to get that regeneration and there's loads over here.  Adam: What I'm still not clear about is why is the rainforest so special? It might be, oh it gets a lot of rain, who cares? A place gets a lot of rain, so does Wales, so does a lot of bits of London. It's clearly something special, it's not the trees, so what, why is having a temperate rainforest actually a good thing, what makes it special?  Sam: Well, there's there's there's a few different things. One of them is, and this is the real key one we focus on, is the biodiversity value. So the real bad, Britain in general is quite a wildlife poor place. We have quite a low species diversity, but these rainforests are absolute wells of biodiversity globally. The key ones are these epiphytes, so we're talking about lichens, bryophytes, so those are the mosses, liverworts and hornworts. Britain has over 2,000 species of lichen, it's one of the most biodiverse places on Earth in terms of lichen species, so we're really punching above our weight in terms of biodiversity in that sense, and they're only really found in these temperate rainforest habitats.  Adam: And lichen, I love lichen, and it's a real sign of air purity and everything, they're beautiful. How much do they support, like wildlife? I'm not aware of animals feeding off lichen very much, I don't think it has much nutrients in it?  Sam: Not too much at a macro level, but if you were to delve into that microscopic world, they are absolute keystone species in terms of forming the bedrock for so many invertebrates for so much sort of microbes. But they're also functionally, and this is something I'm I'm really passionate about, is looking at these forests in terms of what they can give to us functionally and the environment functionally, they are really good at fixing nitrogen. They're very, very good at fixing carbon, but but so in terms, that's what that's what makes temperate rainforest really good in terms of climate change mitigation is they hold that water, but they also are incredible carbon stores far more carbon is stored in these forests than traditional forests in the UK.  Adam: And that's lichens playing a big role in this?  Sam: A huge part, yeah, because of the pure, like the biomass of those lichens and mosses.  Adam: Ohh interesting. OK, so where are we going?  Sam: So I would quite like to go down to that river.  Adam: I'd love to go down to the river! Can I just ask, we're not going that way, are we??  Sam: No, I think we're gonna, that's one we may drive down, I think.  Adam: Drive down there?? No no we're not going to drive down there, that's not possible! *both laugh*  Sam: Yeah, we might have to go to a scenic detour around.   Adam: OK, well, there let's go down to the river. You have to lead. You look like...  Sam: So I think if we head up back to the car, shoot down, yeah.  Adam: OK. Ohh I see. OK, OK. But we're not driving down this this hill.  Sam: No, no, I think let's go down to the main Dart actually and then you can...  Adam: OK. And then get and get back, OK. Brilliant. We have come down to the river, remind me what the river is called?   Sam: This is the Webburn.   Adam: The Webburn, which leads into the Dart. We are on proper Hobbit territory now. A moss-covered stone bridge over the Webburn. We passed a little a beautiful little cottage, actually there's a number of beautiful cottages here. So explain a bit about where we are.  Sam: So we're stood on the Webburn, the Webburn watercourse and just behind us is the confluence of where it enters the Dart River and this kind of where it feeds into our aspirations for the restoration of the site. It's what many people would consider to be quite a natural looking river or natural looking watercourse. But this really as you can see it's very straight, it's very cut down into into the ground. So we call that incision and that's a product of centuries of draining and of artificial domestication of this watercourse to allow the land around it to be drier, which makes it more kind of productive for forestry.  Adam: So that's not natural?   Sam: No.  Adam: Are you gonna do anything about that? I feel like a teacher, ‘are you going to do anything about that?'!  Sam: *laughs* That that is the plan.  Adam: How how do you change, I mean, the river has cut, therefore quite a a deep edge into the land. What would you be able to do to to change that then?  Sam: Yeah. So a couple of years ago I went out to the Pacific Northwest, Canada, Vancouver Island to see their temperate rainforest and have a look at how old growth sort of ancient temperate rainforests function, but also how they restore them. And they, I asked them to take me to a river that was their best example of a really healthy rainforest river with really good salmon populations with great biodiversity that would have been unaffected by humans. And they took me to a place called Lost Shoe Creek. And and from the bottom of the watercourse where it entered the sea to the head waters, it was, you couldn't see the water. It was absolutely covered in wood, so huge trees that had fallen in, trees bank to bank, pinned against the bank. And what that does is it creates a much more dynamic river system that doesn't go in a straight line, but also holds back a lot of the gravel with the sediment and the silt that in this kind of river is making its way to the ocean. And causing a lot of damage.  Adam: So it's allowing or maybe placing actual dead trees into into the water and we can see one tree's already there, presumably that just naturally fell in.  Sam: That's right. Yeah. So if we left this for 1,000 years, it would fill, it would be effectively be a giant log jam, and we'd start to get a lot of that naturalised process happening. And then you get much more biodiversity because there's more invertebrates in the river, there's more shelter for fish and birds, there's more habitat. But what we're effectively planning on doing is is doing something what people call stage zero restoration, so taking,  accelerating that that thousand-year process and taking it back to a more naturalised river.  Adam: It's such a a spot. I think it's time for a bit of social media video, so I'll film that and you can see that on the Woodland Trust and my sites, and then we'll crack on. Sorry, I know this is really important, but this is an amazing fallen tree over a drystone wall covered in moss, I mean, I just had to stop for a moment. Look, you talked about lichen. I know, I ask you a question then stop you answering it *both laugh*. I love this lichen, it's all on this tree. It is really, really beautiful.  Sam: So this is called seastorm lichen which is one of the few lichens that has actually a romantic sort of English name that isn't Latin.  Adam: Wow. Well, very cool. Whilst you're talking, I'm gonna take a photo. OK. Yeah, go on, seastorm lichen.   Sam: Yeah, and and so a lot of the lichens will, as you can see, grow on the branches where the light is greater. So there's almost a canopy world of biodiversity up there, and what we're doing by increasing the light levels is, is drawing these lichens down to the forest floor by increasing the light levels. But this is a really, really good example of the kind of levels of deadwood we actually want to aspire to. So in, as you can see, in most of the forest, it's completely denuded of deadwood. So we'd be lucky if we get sort of 5 cubic metres of wood per hectare. In the forest of, the temperate rainforests of Canada, they have sort of 600 cubic metres a hectare of deadwood. So you you could barely even move through their forest.  Adam: And that's super, because often people want the deadwood cleared cause you go, ‘oh well it's untidy', but that's a sort of oasis of of biodiversity.  Sam: That's right. It's a whole layer of ecology that we're missing from our forests. And we recently did a study on something called the blue ground beetle, which is a an endemic rare species to temperate rainforests. We didn't know where they went in the day, so we didn't really know anything about them, they're very elusive. They come out at night, walk up the trees, and they reflect the moon off of their blue, kind of shiny carapace. They're our biggest beetle. So we did a study with Exeter University where we put GPS tracking backpacks on them.  Adam: On a beetle?  Sam: On a beetle, to find out where they went. And lo and behold, we found that they were going into these deadwood habitats and so it just it just shone a light on how important increasing deadwood in these forests is for all of those species.  Adam: Amazing. All right. I I do encourage you to follow the Woodland Trust's social media, Insta and all the rest of them and my Bluesky and Twitter or X or whatever it is you wanna do. And I'm now gonna take a photo which hopefully you'll see on any of that social media. So do follow them all. And we're going to take a pause as I pose *laughs*. Right, I'm back from my photographic expedition. Right. So you can answer the question again now about this public debate about access and and what have you. Go on, you lead on whilst we're talking.  Sam: So yeah, Dartmoor is really kind of the centre of gravity for a wider story around public, an increasing demand from the public to access land for wellbeing, recreation, connection to nature, that has been kind of growing here, particularly in this area.  Adam: Right.  Sam: There are, I think we actually sorry, we do need to go that way, I think they've blocked the path.  Adam: OK fair enough.  Sam: We're not having to scramble.  Adam: And I think we're going back to where we came from. Alright. Although that path there looks blocked.   Sam: This one looks good. Yeah.  Adam: Oh OK.  Sam: Go through this end.   Adam: Through the little stone wall. OK. Ruby's following doing social media. Ohh OK. Yeah, sorry, carry on.  Sam: So, I suppose the concern of some people might be that increasing footfall, public access to these really important fragments of temperate rainforest, it could have a damaging effect on the biodiversity here. But the reality is that in order for people to connect with, understand and care about nature, they need to have access to it. And so we need to bring people into these habitats in a sensitive and considered way to educate people about them, but the other key thing is we need to expand these habitats. So we're part of something called the South West Rainforest Alliance. And our goal collectively is to increase the amount of temperate rainforest in Devon and Cornwall, to triple it by 2050.  Adam: OK. I mean that's worth pausing on that for a moment. That's an extraordinary task. I mean it sounds a bit, I have to say I'm a bit sceptical about that, it sounds like you plucked that out the air. How on earth would you get to tripling the cover you've got?  Sam: Well, we think we can do that mostly through buffering existing temporate rainforest, so planting around them which can then make those bigger, better, more connected, but also just by introducing trees into farmed landscapes but not in a way that damages the farming. So agroforestry. But also the inclusion of hedgerows that connect up those fragments and there's been a lot of work that's being done currently in partnership with Plymouth University to model how we would do that effectively.  Adam: And the other thing that strikes me when we talk about ancient woodland, we're talking about, well, we can't create ancient woodlands, the clue's in the name, it's got to be ancient. It is different for temperate rainforests, isn't it? These things which I've heard about are achievable in a relatively short period of time. Is that right?  Sam: That's right. So we think we can create new temperate rainforest within our lifetime. So within a kind of 40-50 year woodland establishment phase and as part of the Rainforest Recovery Project, we have a strand of work that we're calling the temperate rainforest creation trials and that includes long term scientific research to tell us how best we can create rainforest the quickest. So is it doing closed canopy woodlands like this or is it individual trees in farmland? Or is it open space woodlands or maybe even natural regeneration?  Adam: Amazing. We're by the river. Let's move on with our tales from the riverbank. One thing I I wanted to ask you, I arrived here last night. And I met well, an old friend of mine called Chris Salisbury, who runs a local sort of adventure, an ecological company, taking people for adventures in the woods and telling stories and all sorts of really interesting things, and he was telling me two things that he's noted. One is the reintroduction of pine martens which I think is talked about, but also he's seen wild boar in these woods and I've never heard of that. Are those, have have you come across those stories?  Sam: Yes, so we were actually involved in the reintroduction of pine martens last year and that was a partnership between us and Devon Wildlife Trust and various other charities. And and that was a sort of very controlled planned, strategic reintroduction of a species that's been really successful. We've brought the public along with us, and they're now part of that increasingly biodiverse and resilient temperate rainforest landscape.  Adam: Right before we move on to wild boar, just educate me, what is a pine marten? Not sure, not entirely sure I know what one is.  Sam: A pine marten is a mustelid, so it's in the same family as sort of the badger, the stoat, the weasel.   Adam: Right, what's it look like?  Sam: It's it's sort of the size of a small cat, it's brown with a white bib and it looks quite a lot like a weasel, but it's larger, but they're very much arboreal mammals, so they spend most of their time in the trees.  Adam: And were they native to this land?   Sam: Yes they were.  Adam: Hunted out were they?  Sam: Hunted to extinction for their pelts and and things like that. Yeah.  Adam: So you're reintroducing them. How successful has that been?  Sam: That's been really successful. So we've reintroduced 15 animals to Dartmoor last year and we think that that will be enough of a seed population for them to start spreading naturally now.  Adam: OK. And I've heard about what, the reintroduction in other parts of the country of pine martens. Wild boar. A a harder issue I would have thought ‘cause these are quite big beasts?   Sam: Yes.  Adam: Did, did any, presumably the Trust didn't introduce them? No.  Sam: No. So they haven't been, in the same way as pine martens were, formally introduced. There's been more of a sort of natural creep, or in some cases, so there's a term that people use now called ‘beaver bombing', which which people use completely straight faced in a lot of circles now. And that is effectively guerilla reintroduction of species.  Adam: Right. OK. So these are just people who feel that they should be rewilded and just did it without any any authority or talking to the local community they just brought them in?  Sam: Exactly without going through that sort of more defined process.  Adam: And and look, clearly this is not a Woodland Trust policy, so I'm not asking you to defend it, but but the effect of that, I mean, have you noticed anything?  Sam: I think, I mean, it's a huge subject, but I think in general, if you don't bring communities along with you by educating them, by mitigating the effect of a species, it it can damage the movement in in the longer term. The other thing I'd say about boar and those larger sort of herbivores, which would have been a really important part of our ecosystem for diversifying them and keeping that process going, they will really struggle unless we have bigger, better, more connected woodlands that are more natural anyway.  Adam: Right. I understand. So we're just going through talking about this being the rainforest, but it has been amazingly dry in the spring and now you can hear that in the crunchy undergrowth of very dry leaves. You're gonna, I'm I'm an idiot anyway, but I'm concentrating on too many things so I've forgotten the name of the river for the third time *laughs*.  Sam: It's the Webburn.  Adam: The Webburn, why can't I remember the Webburn? All right. We've come down to the Webburn, to the riverbank side. It's beautifully clear this water, isn't it? There I mean it, it's it's wonderful clear. I so want to stand in that and then I'll have wet feet for the rest of the day and the journey back to London. So I'm not going to do that. How much of a threat is this sort of environment under?  Sam: So temperate rainforest once covered about 20% of the UK and they would have clothed our western seaboard which receives that amazing sort of oceanic rainfall and temperature we've been talking about. That's been reduced now to about 2% in the UK.   Adam: OK, from 20 to 2%?  Sam: From 20 to 2, so 90% loss.   Adam: Over what sort of period?  Sam: So we're talking about millennia really. So this is they would have been at their zenith about 5,000, 6,000 years ago during the Bronze Age and that progressive multi-generation story of increasing farming, of draining, of forestry, has led to the fragmentation that we see today. In Devon and Cornwall, we think it would have covered about 75%. That's now been reduced to about 8%. So a similar 90% loss both regionally and nationally.  Adam: And are you optimistic that that's about to change? Are we now seeing a different story?  Sam: I feel really optimistic, but mostly that's because I think we're facing a lot of these holistic problems at the moment around the biodiversity crisis, around climate change, and I think rainforests are an actually incredibly cheap, scalable way of restoring nature, which will help us with the biodiversity crisis, but also protect communities from climate change. By doing some of this rewetting work, by increasing increasing tree cover, we can massively reduce flooding and massively mitigate the effect of drought on our farming and on our communities as it gets worse. We are hoping to raise £2.8 million to help us achieve the goals we have here and and the site will be open once we've achieved that goal towards the end of the year. And people can go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest to find more about that appeal.  Adam: So just repeat that website again so if people want, if they, if you've got your pen or your computer keyboard ready, here is the website to go to.  Sam: Thats woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest  Adam: And they can learn learn more about it, but also contribute there can they?  Sam: That's right. Yeah. And if they want to learn more about the Rainforest Recovery Project, we are launching a website this week called rainforestrecovery.org.uk.  Adam: So by the time you hear this podcast, all of that will be available to you at the moment I can edit it all together. It is an amazing, amazing site. I am really privileged to be here. What a wonderful place. Sam, thank you very much indeed.  Sam: You're welcome.  Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you. 

00:00–15:00 | Technical Glitches & Time Loops Show opens with a classic audio loop error — endless doomscrolling echo chamber. Sam checks his stream while both hosts riff on how great they sound… repeatedly. Quick intro to the show's vibe: “All the facts, all the absurdity, none of the fluff.” Sam shares tour updates (Comedy Store, Tacoma with Eddie Bravo). Banter about recent stand-up in a barn during a tornado — classic Tripoli chaos. 15:00–30:00 | Ant Skull Warfare & Divine Evolution Wheel of Doom lands on a wild story: Florida ants using skulls for protection. Field ants decapitate trap-jaw ants, decorating their nest to scare off raiders. Discussion of how this behavior counters slave-ant colonies. Existential thoughts: Sam: “You worried about AI? How about skull ants?” Deep reflection on evolution and divine intelligence. 30:00–45:00 | Poop-Tok & Attractive Constipation Talk Sam and Mike react to a viral hot girl explaining poop types. Play-by-play of various stool shapes and what they mean health-wise. Hilarious male perspective: “We'll tolerate poop talk if she's hot enough.” Debate over whether women poop, followed by a comedy store bathroom scent analysis. 45:00–60:00 | Molossia: America's Mini Nation They dive into the micronation of Molossia in Nevada. Run by a self-declared dictator, uses cookie dough-backed currency. Still at war with East Germany — even though it doesn't exist. Thoughts on secession: States like Texas, California, Oregon brought up. Mike and Sam oppose balkanization — “Together we're stronger.” 60:00–75:00 | Gladiator Rats & Feral Cats Story: a Birmingham cat forcing captured rats to fight to the death. Winner lives, loser gets eaten. Sam talks about living with a dominating cat that terrifies everyone. Mike references cat mysticism and their reincarnation lore. 75:00–90:00 | Indian Death Rides, Empires & Stephen King Killed Lennon?! Insane carnival ride footage from India sparks a reincarnation joke fest. “India is not for beginners” — hilarious back-and-forth on danger rides. Conspiracy spotlight: A guy claims Stephen King killed John Lennon. Sam & Mike consider doing a deep dive on that theory. “If you don't care about that, you deserve an asteroid strike.”   Watch Full Episodes on Sam's channels: - YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SamTripoli - Rumble: https://rumble.com/c/SamTripoli Sam Tripoli: Tin Foil Hat Podcast Website: SamTripoli.com Twitter: https://x.com/samtripoli Midnight Mike: The OBDM Podcast Website: https://ourbigdumbmouth.com/ Twitter: https://x.com/obdmpod Doom Scrollin' Telegram: https://t.me/+La3v2IUctLlhYWUx Naked Gardener Tea: https://www.thenakedgardener.us/store

As property managers, you know how important communication is. Building solid relationships and creating trust is crucial in the industry, especially when trying to bring on new clients and doors. In this episode of the Property Management Growth Show, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Sam Wakefield from Close it Now to talk about how you can level up your sales game to close more deals at a higher price point. You'll Learn [00:54] Vendor and Property Manager Relationships [09:43] Why You Attract Cheapo Clients [15:33] Building Trust in Sales [21:14] Shifting Perception: It's Not A, It's B [27:43] Learning to Improve Your Sales at DoorGrow Live 2025 Quotables “Truly all that sells is just communication.” “The second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are.” “If we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner.” “As business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive Transcript [00:00:00] Sam: A lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:00:07] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and it's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:00:14] Jason: All right. I am trying a new platform today. This is Jason Hull and I am a property management growth expert. If you're not familiar with me, I help grow and scale property management companies and I am really good at that. And so our company's DoorGrow and we are the world leaders of growing and scaling property management businesses. [00:00:35] Jason: I've helped thousands of property managers do that. And today my guest is Sam Wakefield. Hanging out here with Sam. Sam, welcome to the show.  [00:00:44] Sam: Thanks for having me on, man. I'm glad to be here.  [00:00:46] Jason: Hey, good to have you. So, I'm really excited to get into this. We had some really nice dialogue back and forth. You coach. [00:00:54] Jason: Well, I'll let you tell. What group, category of people do you coach and you help with them with sales and closing more deals, so.  [00:01:01] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we do sales training and basically sales systems, whole operation systems within companies, but mostly sales focused for home services. So everything from HVAC, plumbing, electrical, and then even outside of that. Garage doors, or you name it. If someone improves a home, then we help the communication side of all of those companies.  [00:01:27] Jason: Got it. So in my industry, property management people would call those vendors. That's usually what they call them. They're like, "these are the vendors." And so we thought it was fun. I went on your podcast, we had this really fun dialogue. [00:01:39] Jason: I highly recommend you go check out Sam's episode with Jason Hull and go check that out. We were going back and forth because we had done a survey each to our audiences, like what's frustrating about HVAC companies and what's frustrating about property management companies. Right. And just seeing the disconnect that existed there. [00:01:56] Jason: Which was interesting. So, before we get into this, I want to read a quick message from our sponsor. This episode's sponsored by KRS SmartBooks. Do you have properties manage, and zero time for bookkeeping headaches? KRS SmartBooks is your secret weapon. They specialize in finances for busy property managers like you, with 15 plus years of real estate knowhow and skills in AppFolio, Yardi, and more imagine monthly reports magically appearing, and zero accounting stress. Sound good? Head to krsbooks.com to book your free discovery call, integrity, quality, and a dash of bookkeeping brilliance, that's KRS SmartBooks, and that's K as in Kansas, R as in Rogers, S as in Sam. Sam. All right, so cool. Now let's get into this. [00:02:45] Jason: So we're going to talk about closing deals, but why don't you give us my audience a little bit of background. How did you get into sales and then starting your own company, helping people with sales, and like, how'd you how did Close it Now come to be?  [00:03:00] Sam: Yeah, for sure. Thanks for that question. So, I've spent almost 20 years now in home services. [00:03:05] Sam: Most of my time has been in HVAC. I've done solar. I've done a lot of different trades over the years and, you know, so I launched the Close it Now company in 2019 because I really just recognized a place where there was not a lot of modern training because truly all that sells is just communication. [00:03:26] Sam: You know, it's how do we communicate clearer and in a way where we can educate so somebody can understand, one, what we're talking about, and two, why they should care and how it's going to make a difference in their life. So at the essence of that, so I was looking for some more modern training for my people at my company that I had at the time, and I didn't find anything out there. [00:03:48] Sam: So I just said, well, now we have a space for, you know, I have communication skills. I can train people. So that's when I launched the company in 2019 and so much of my career built up to that point of, and specifically how it affects here and why I'm here today. You know, I've worked with so many property management companies and individuals across 20 years of doing this. Yeah. So I've definitely learned a lot of best practices and a lot of the things not to do, you know? Got it. I all own my mistakes as well as, you know, coming across maybe property managers that I wouldn't work with again. Right. Yeah. So from all of that experience, you know, I started the training company, so I work with those home service companies to communicate better. [00:04:33] Sam: You know, a lot of it is, you know, of course, working directly with homeowners. But also there's a huge portion of all of those companies that, you know, rely on it and need property management companies to, you know, really help them stay in business and in turn they can turn around and, you know, help those property management companies to efficiently take care of properties. [00:04:58] Sam: But there's always seems to be this kind of struggle of, you know, that back and forth. So that's obviously why we're here today is a big part of that. But that's some of my history. I've been doing it 20 years. I started Close it Now six years or in, coming up on... yeah, April this year, next month is six years anniversary. [00:05:16] Sam: Nice. Of the company. And it's been a fun ride and we've definitely helped lots and lots of organizations to you know, to grow in a way.  [00:05:24] Jason: You're helping them close it now. All right. Yeah. Got it. All right. So you're just, you're helping these vendors close more deals, right? [00:05:31] Jason: So, property managers, I think would love to hear. You're on the other side of this relationship between property managers and vendors. What have you seen and what's the general feedback that you're noticing of the property management industry? What's kind of the vendor's perspective? [00:05:46] Jason: Because I know property managers, they get frustrated with vendors, right? They're like, "oh, the vendors like say you need something when you don't and like they don't like, it's difficult to reach them or this or whatever." Right. What are some of the complaints and gripes about property management companies? [00:06:03] Sam: Yeah. Complaints and gripes about property management companies. One of the big ones is, a lot of it is kind of the same thing is lack of communication. Okay. That's always one of the biggest complaints that comes up is, you know, we will get, you know, say someone, a property manager will call in for us to go evaluate a property. [00:06:21] Sam: We'll take an air conditioning issue or something like that, so we'll show up and then we're trying to call ahead. There's no clear information was given on who to call ahead to. Then we show up to the appointment, maybe the tenant's there, maybe not. A lot of times they're not there. [00:06:36] Sam: Okay. Then we can get ahold of the property manager to even get in the place. So now we're like dancing around in the circle of, okay, who do we contact? You get frustrated, move on to the next call, then the property manager calls and "Well, why'd you leave? Somebody was there." [00:06:50] Sam: Well, nobody was there. And so all of this just seems to happen very often. [00:06:55] Sam: Too often. Yeah. So it creates a stereotype. When the stereotype is created, that means of course there's a reason for it. Yeah. And so this is one of the big ones is the lack of communication. And I know that I've heard that the other direction as well. But so that's one of the things I hear the most. [00:07:11] Jason: Yeah. Got it. Yeah, so I'm sure when a vendor finds a property manager that does communicate effectively that there's clarity in that communication happening, and they've got good systems in place. The tenant's there, the tenant understands what's going on. Everybody's informed. Then those can be really great relationships to have. [00:07:34] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. Those are, you know, the last the last organization I was at, I was with them, I was a sales manager and trainer for six years there. And I went through about 18 different property management companies to find two to three that were worth working with. Wow. And that was, you know, just sadly. We were always open to when a property management company came to us and we're like, "Hey, we, you know, we need you to do some work. We're looking for a new vendor." We're like, "sure. Absolutely. We'll try you out as well as you're trying us out." Right. But sadly, you know, the two or three that we did find great relationships with. They were fantastic relationships because yeah, we, you know, part of my ethics is our team was like, we will show up on time no matter what. [00:08:19] Sam: Right? We always do what we say. We will never, you know, recommend something that's not verifiable from our, you know, from our testing. We're not going to just guess at this because we're not guessing with anybody's, you know? Yeah. Investment. And at the same time when we, you know, say we're going to do the work, we do the work, and we show up to do the work, we say we're going to. [00:08:43] Sam: So that was my ethics statement I always led with. And then basically I would ask the property management company, can I expect the same thing from you guys? Right? And sure enough, the second that we met in the middle and said, yes, this is how we want to do business, those relationships were always the very best ones because sure, were we a few more dollars than the other contractor down the street? Sure. Yes. But we showed up when we said we were going to and we did the right work right the first time. And so, right. That's a big part of that disconnect, I think, is it seems like so many you know, a lot of times property management companies think all the companies are the same, so they're looking for maybe cheaper, whoever's cheapest, a cheaper price. [00:09:22] Sam: But then what they get is a company that doesn't communicate and doesn't show up when they say they're going to, and. It's really the old adage, you get what you pay for.  [00:09:30] Jason: You know, property managers have the same sort of problem is that a lot of people that are looking for a property manager are just looking for the cheapest price. [00:09:38] Jason: And they hate that. They're like, "we're not all the same." Right. So I, yeah, I think it's really important. I think this is dictated by the morals, the ethics, and the values of the business owner. It's always a top down thing. And so if the business owner is a cheapo, they attract cheapo clients and they deal with vendors through this cheapo lens, and this is where there's going to be a lot of mess and a lot of communication issues, and a lot of times the business owner, and this goes for any business and any industry, has a blind spot to the fact that they're cheap. But they're, you know, you're a cheapo if you're the person that's always looking for the stupid coupon code every time you buy everything online, you're always like hunting for that like. I don't have time to do that. [00:10:21] Jason: Like that's a massive waste of my time to go find, save 10% on some stupid a hundred dollars thing online, right? Right. Like, Ooh, I'm searching around. Right. Oh, I saved $10 even though I could have made a hundred thousand dollars. Like if I just like built something awesome, right? So I think there's a mindset issue is that these property managers or vendor business owners are not valuing their time enough. [00:10:45] Jason: If you value your time, you value other people's time. You then show up on time. You then like try to make sure, like your schedule is tight, you want to make sure your schedule is full. Like you, because you value your time and you feel that it's important. And if you really value your time enough as a person, you get things like assistance. [00:11:03] Jason: You get team members, like you get support because your time is so valuable that you want to go buy other people's time because it's less valuable than your time. Right, and this is how we scale our businesses over time is we are buying other people's time that are like they're willing to trade and give up their life chunks of their life for money. [00:11:24] Jason: And as business owners, we want to not give up big chunks of our life for just money. We want to be able to have something scalable. And so I think there's a mindset thing that we have to not be cheap. We have to operate with integrity, and then our team members need to have these values instilled in them, and if we don't build the right culture, it's on us as a business owner. [00:11:45] Jason: And if we don't build the right culture, we then don't have longevity in our business. We don't get return business, we don't get return clients. We don't get to have that really good vendor to continue to work with. We don't get to have that property owner continue to want to work with us, right? [00:12:00] Jason: Because we have showcased that we are not on top of things, or that we don't have the right values or that we don't have healthy mindset. And so I feel like. At the foundation of everything. It always comes back to mindset. A lot of times  [00:12:13] Sam: I a hundred percent agree with that. It, you know, it's funny that you're kind of started this conversation going down this path. [00:12:19] Sam: This is something that's been a very basically a soapbox for me, a big hot button. Yeah. You know, when I'm coaching... [00:12:26] Sam: jump on that soapbox, Sam. Let's go.  [00:12:27] Sam: Yeah. When I'm coaching and training people lately, especially at this last week especially... yeah. You know, I'm training people with sales and that type of focus, and they, of course, people always come to me, "Hey, how do I overcome these sales objections?" [00:12:43] Sam: You know, somebody says, "I want to get three bids, or somebody says, your price is too high, I want to shop around, or I need to think about it." Yeah. And instead of just going straight to, "well, here's the word track and how to handle these objections." Yeah. We always start with: anytime that you find a trend in your life, [00:13:00] Sam: so if you're getting the same consistent objection, say somebody's getting every single time they get to the end of their appointment and the homeowner or whoever they're talking to says, "I want to think about it." It's like the second you start to develop a trend in your life, look internally because you are attracting exactly who you are. [00:13:17] Sam: I would be willing to bet that person does the same thing when they shop. So then no wonder you're getting every single one of your clients is telling you, "I want to think about it." Or if when you shop, do you ask for say, "oh, I've got to get some three bids on this thing. I got to look around." Yeah. Well, no wonder the people you're selling to always have to get three bids because we attract who we are. Yeah. And it starts right here in the mind. And it's incredible how that works.  [00:13:43] Jason: Yeah. because if we're anxious, if we have that energetic sort of anxiety of that, like things are, it's expensive, and we go into that trying to sell it to somebody. Then they can feel that and we present it differently. And so we're like, "here's the price." And like, yeah, and it's worth it. And they can just, there's so many little subtle clues they pick up on that, Hey, this seems a little high. And because sometimes like if you're presenting to somebody and they're not what I call a cheapo, there's three types of buyers, cheapos, normals, and premiums I call them. [00:14:16] Jason: And normals are like, you typically like 60%. They're like the majority, 61%. The smallest group are usually the premium buyers, supposedly. But the idea is this: if you're a premium buyer and I present a price and I'm not even going to like flinch telling you about it, I'm like, "yeah, we've got this and this is what it costs and this," and they're going to go, "oh, this person feels really confident." [00:14:36] Jason: And it's just energetically how we present it. There's no like, "Hey, I'm trying to prep you for this price, you know, reveal because it's going to hurt a little bit." Right. Or if they just have the confidence and they know they're expensive, they might even just say, "Hey, we're one of the most expensive, but we're also one of the best. Let me tell you about your options." Right? So maybe they start with a pre-frame like that, but either way, they have this confidence that they know they have value and that it's worth it, and then they present it like that, then people would go, oh, okay, but if you have that anxiety deep down related to price and you know, you're this person if you're always looking for the coupon code or the discount code or you're trying to find the cheapest way to do something, then you've got a bit of that going on. [00:15:21] Jason: Because that's your identity. And so I've noticed this. Like in order to get people to be better salespeople, I can't just give them tactics. I have to give them identity. And so, and this is why my greatest sales hack, I call the Golden Bridge Formula. It's like it's the most authentic way to sell, which is your personal why connected to the business why connected to the prospect's why. Because we always trust motives. And the default assumption in sales, if I don't know your motive and you're trying to sell to me, is you want my money. [00:15:54] Sam: Right.  [00:15:54] Jason: And if I think that's your only motive is you want my money and you're willing to do whatever it takes to get that, then you're probably maybe even willing to be unethical in order to get that might be the assumption. [00:16:05] Jason: Right? So that's kind of the default assumption in sales. And so to correct that, if I tell somebody, "Hey. I'm Jason Hull. My personal why is to inspire others to love true principles. And so what that means is I love sharing what works and learning what works and teaching to others. I would do that for free, for fun, and so I created DoorGrow and our why at DoorGrow is to transform property management business owners and their businesses. [00:16:27] Jason: And so if our whole belief system is around helping people transform their businesses. So that allows me to basically feed my addiction to learning, coaches, masterminds, books, whatever, and turn around and be able to share what's working with others. And that's just fun for me. So I have a business that basically fulfills my lifestyle and allows me to have fun and do what I want to do. [00:16:51] Jason: And you, Mr. Property management, business owner, who I'm maybe selling to, want to grow your business. And so our interests are in alignment. My business is the bridge that connects your why to my why. We both get what we want. It's the ultimate win-win, right? Everybody wins. And so I've been able to take really terrible salespeople that are really bad at selling, and I just get them clear on their own identity. [00:17:14] Jason: Mm-hmm. Who they are, why they do what they do, and have them relate that to people and then people trust them. And sales and deals happened at the speed of trust.  [00:17:22] Sam: Oh my gosh, I love this so much. It's insanely powerful too when I'm teaching people how to do just introductions, you know? A super quick formula too for the property managers out there that are listening to that, even if you're property manager, you have to get good at sales. [00:17:38] Sam: Yeah, you have to be good at communication to be able to bring more doors into your portfolio. And so the way you know, a really easy formula for those homeowners when you're having that conversation, first of all, they've got to know who they're talking to. Yeah. You know, this belief, identity, you know, matrix that I actually I love to call, I just did a keynote. [00:17:59] Sam: It's funny for everybody listening. It's almost like Jason and I have read each other's notes, but we haven't. Just did a keynote, well that's maybe a month ago in Minnesota, that the entire talk was your thoughts, create your belief about yourself, your totally belief about yourself creates your identity, and then your identity creates your outcomes. [00:18:16] Sam: Yeah. And, but we have to go back and start with those thoughts. And so, but a simple, easy formula for property managers out there having this conversation is first of all, start asking permission for things. Yes. We can't just tell, right? If we can ask it as a question, ask it as a question. [00:18:36] Sam: So ask permission, like, "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I take a quick minute and just introduce you to our company and myself."  [00:18:44] Sam: yeah.  [00:18:45] Sam: And so first of all, anytime a conversation starts, there's always this period of icebreaking, right? Yeah. Anytime anything new is introduced in anyone's environment, there's always stiffness until that moment of rapport happens and we relax a little bit. [00:19:00] Sam: Yeah. So taking a couple of minutes to just. "Hey, before we get started, do you mind if I introduce the company and a little bit about myself? Would that be all right?" Yes. So permission to it and then just take a few minutes because I mean, so many times we'll go through this crazy presentation and then we're asking somebody to buy from us and they don't even know who we are. [00:19:21] Sam: We never took the time to even introduce ourselves. Right.  [00:19:24] Jason: Yeah.  [00:19:24] Sam: Or they don't know thing about the company.  [00:19:25] Jason: Trying to immediately shove the product or service down their throat.  [00:19:28] Sam: Yeah. No wonder they need to think about it. They don't even know who you are. And so we introduce that first. [00:19:34] Sam: It's huge. And to just getting into the things. So that's the flow. It's like, okay, now that you know a little bit about us, tell us a little bit about you. What are you looking for? Right. So then you start that discovery process, and I'm sure you trained this but the discovery process is everything. [00:19:51] Sam: We have to understand the motive behind why they want to do things. Somebody just says, "Hey, I'm looking for a property manager." Okay, great. That's one thing. "Why do you would need a property manager? What are you trying to solve? What do we want to accomplish by having a property manager for your property?" [00:20:09] Sam: So we find out, what are the pain points? What are the issues that they're wanting to overcome? And then from there, we can create a, you know, craft a conversation around it. But until we know that, we're just stabbing in the dark and just guessing it. Yeah. Well, hopefully this will work.  [00:20:23] Jason: Right. Yeah. If we just jump right to offering solutions when we don't even ask what they need it's not very effective. [00:20:30] Jason: And then they're going to have a ton of objections.  [00:20:32] Sam: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But yeah, that's the some of the complaints we have are the communication and the other one is just not responding once we find solutions, then give them to the property manager. [00:20:45] Sam: And then it's like ghosting for who knows how long until finally somebody gets back. And so that's the other side of the communication is not getting resolution once we actually, you know, we can do this work, but we're not going to sit around here all day to wait to get it approved. We have other appointments. [00:21:02] Sam: So do we want to reschedule?  [00:21:03] Jason: It's treating the vendor like they're high value, they're going to treat you like you're high value and they're going to prioritize you. And so it really is a mutual respect relationship that needs to be built. So, Sam, I also want to bring up to our audience, you are going to be coming [00:21:19] Jason: to speak at DoorGrow Live. Yeah. And you're going to be teaching some really cool stuff. Could you just touch on real quick what you're going to be sharing at this because I wanted to come bring you to expose my clients and my audience to what you're going to be sharing and maybe you can get some people pumped up for DoorGrow Live, so. [00:21:38] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you for the invite as well. I'm super excited to be speaking for DoorGorw Live. It's my passion, in fact to be able to help people in their daily lives, especially in conversations like this, to make it easy. I am such a firm believer that sales should be easy. If it's not easy, we're overcomplicating it. And so what we're going to be talking about at the event is I'm going to give some really simple keys to better communication so people actually not only listen, but they understand what you're saying and, more importantly, why should they care? [00:22:18] Sam: So we're going to talk about something called, the benefit lens. We're going to talk about some easy word substitutions. We're not going to be learning scripts or anything. We're going to be, we're going to show any really easy ways to get immediate buy-in to what our conversation is. Nice. And how to recruit people to be raving fans and be on board. [00:22:38] Sam: And how to ask and get referrals because that's huge in...  [00:22:44] Sam: absolutely.  [00:22:44] Sam: ...something like a property management. If every third door you added also added another one from a referral, what would that do to your business? Yeah, absolutely. So not just asking for referrals, but actually asking in a way where actually get them. [00:22:57] Jason: Right. Yeah. If you're getting enough referrals, one, because you have a good reputation, you're doing a good job, but also because you have an intention and you're asking appropriately, you create this kind of virus of growth in your business where it's multiplying. [00:23:13] Jason: Every client becomes more clients.  [00:23:16] Sam: Yep. Absolutely. In fact, we can do a quick little as an example of some of the things we're going to cover. Are you open to doing a quick little role play with me on...  [00:23:24] Sam: all right. Let's do it.  [00:23:25] Sam: Some of the conversation here. Yeah. I love role play.  [00:23:28] Sam: Let's have fun.  [00:23:29] Sam: Yeah, for sure. [00:23:30] Sam: So I'm property manager. So before we do, give me a quick little context of what is a premium price property manager and what is like a middle range property manager. And so I'll know what I'm working with here. [00:23:44] Jason: Oh yeah. Usually our clients have three different price points for that reason. So, perfect. But let's say like, real typical in the marketplace is 10% is pretty normal. Okay? And this is not what we recommend. because our clients close more deals more easily at a higher price point. [00:23:59] Jason: So we have some special pricing models, but let's say 10%. Premium, maybe 12%, and the lower would maybe be like 8%.  [00:24:08] Sam: Got it. Got it. Perfect. Alright, so I'm the project manager. So I'm going to be a premium 12%. Yeah. So what we're going to do in this conversation, I'm going to ask for the business and you're going to give me a little bit of a price flinch with, "well, the other guy was only 10%." [00:24:23] Sam: Okay. And so we'll show a quick, easy way to handle that. All right. In a way that will make sense for everybody. So, alright, Jason, so, sounds like everything that you've talked about, can you see how all the things we do will take care of the concerns that you have? [00:24:38] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Sounds great.  [00:24:40] Sam: Awesome. Perfect. So the next steps to get moving is you know, so we're just 12% of the monthly as for us to be able to take care of all of that. And this will just need a quick authorization on this form here and we can get started right away.  [00:24:55] Jason: Ooh, okay. Well, I was expecting, you know, I talked to a company down the street, they were like 10%, which seems to be a bit more normal. [00:25:04] Jason: I don't know.  [00:25:04] Sam: More normal?  [00:25:07] Jason: I've talked to a couple companies and a lot of them all do it at 10%. Could, like, is it possible you could do it at 10%?  [00:25:13] Sam: Oh, gotcha. So listen, I mean, so we were just 12%, but listen, we're not 2% higher or 2% more expensive. We're 2% better. Can I explain to you why that is? [00:25:25] Jason: Sure.  [00:25:26] Sam: Absolutely.  [00:25:27] Sam: So at that point, as a great company, you're going to have a hit list of all of the reasons why you're better than everybody else, and what makes you that premium company. I like it. So the minute we get that permission question in of, "Hey, we're not 2% more expensive, we're 2% higher, we're 2% better." [00:25:43] Sam: Then the permission question is, "can I show you why, or can I show you how?" And they say "Yes." Then we're going to, "okay, so what we do, it's..." never talk bad about the competition. Sure. But it's always with that perspective. "So what we do is this, and what we do is this, and what we do is this. We're always going to have the availability to be in contact, you know, 24/7 or you know, whatever all of the benefits is. [00:26:10] Sam: We're going through this huge benefit list. Yeah. And then when, once we, and it works like magic, once you get to about 10 or 12 things, especially when you know, those first 10 or 12 things are things the other companies don't do. Yeah. So many times that person will go, "you know what? You're right. You know what? You're right. Let's just go ahead and do it." Yeah.  [00:26:31] Jason: I mean, you go through those things you say, "so does that make sense why maybe we're 2% better?" And they're going to be like, "yeah."  [00:26:38] Jason: You've got agreement.  [00:26:39] Sam: Cool. Absolutely. And the other thing to do in this conversation, and this is really powerful too, so, you know, we'll take you know, what's a, what's the average rent that we'd be taking that percentage off of? [00:26:50] Jason: Let's say 2000 bucks.  [00:26:51] Sam: So 2000 bucks. That's what I was going to use. "So we're talking about 2% difference. So we're looking at $40 a month or $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for $10 a week to potentially fight the headache of, you know, your property management company not responding when you need them to respond, your tenants being really unhappy, the tenants turning over and over, for, I mean, $10 a week. Is it worth it to you for that?"  [00:27:22] Jason: Yeah.  [00:27:23] Sam: So if, I mean, if you're willing to roll the dice and take that chance, then of course you could do what you want. But if you want it done right and done once, so you're headache free and you're not going to have to, because the reason you hire a property manager is to be hands off. [00:27:35] Sam: Right? Yeah. Perfect. That's why what, that's what sets us apart. Next to any of the other companies around.  [00:27:43] Jason: Got it. So hypothetical property manager, Sam here, like believes. You can tell by listening to him, he believes in what he is selling. He believes he's worth that 12%. He believes he's worth that value, and I love that reframe. [00:27:58] Jason: One of the NLP hacks I teach clients is, it's not a, it's b, and he's like, "it's not that we're expensive or higher price, it's that we're 2% better." And so you're saying this is how you are looking at it. Here's how I want you to look at it. And that's a really cool correction. I love that right there. [00:28:16] Jason: Very powerful.  [00:28:17] Sam: The other part of that too is when you take, we're not talking about the total monthly, you know, we're talking about what's 12% or 10%? We're talking about 2% difference. Yeah. Is it worth it to you for a 2% difference to take the chance on having to deal with this, having to manage your own projects, having the headache, having the you know, the angry tenants or we don't have that problem. [00:28:42] Sam: And here's proof: review, testimony. Other people in the area, for people that use us just like you guys.  [00:28:49] Jason: Yeah. Awesome. Perfect. And you're going to share some really cool stuff I know at DoorGrow Live. I'm excited, man. Me too.  [00:28:56] Sam: Let's just tip of the iceberg. [00:28:57] Jason: For a salesman to be able to like build a coaching business, teaching sales like these are the best in the world at sales, and so I'm really excited to have you come. I've sold millions and millions of dollars of stuff. I love, I'm always learning more about sales, like this is something you can always continually learn more, so I love that little reframe. [00:29:17] Jason: That's a good one. I'm excited to hear what else you have to share. This is going to be really awesome. And if you're interested, go to doorgrowlive.com and get your tickets. Get your tickets. Our theme this year is innovating the future of property management, and we are bringing future ideas. [00:29:32] Jason: I'm going to be going over hybrid pricing, a new pricing model for property managers. This is the future. We're going to be sharing our DoorGrow hiring system. This is the future of how you're going to need to do hiring, so you're not making mistakes with hires, we're helping a lot of people replace their entire team. [00:29:48] Jason: So anyway, DoorGrow Live is going to be really freaking cool. So, yeah, and it's a holistic conference as well. We're bringing people from outside the industry, people that are related to different things. I've got a biohacking expert. We've got different things just to optimize your life as an entrepreneur and to make you better at what you do. [00:30:05] Jason: So this is going to be really cool. So, well, Sam anything else we should touch on?  [00:30:10] Sam: You know, there's so much we could cover.  [00:30:12] Jason: There's a lot. We'll save it for DoorGrow Live. How can people that, if they're listening, they're like, I'm a vendor, or I've got this, or I could really use Sam's help. [00:30:21] Jason: How can they get ahold of you?  [00:30:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. They can go to, of course the website is closeitnow.net. That's NET so closeitnow.net. They can email me directly, sam@closeitnow.net. On an Instagram at @therealcloseitnow. Okay. Or basically search Close it Now anywhere and I pop up all over the place. [00:30:44] Sam: All right. I'm kind of everywhere on social media and on the Googles at this point. All right.  [00:30:50] Jason: All right, well we're going to close this show now, so appreciate you coming on, Sam. It's been great having you. And for those that are watching, listening, if you could use some help from DoorGrow reach out to us. [00:31:00] Jason: You can check us out at doorgrow.com. We are the world leaders at coaching and scaling property management companies. And so if you are dealing with operational challenges, team challenges, hiring challenges, or you just don't know the right strategies for adding doors or business development, we can help you with all of that. [00:31:18] Jason: So reach out to us, check us out at doorgrow.com and until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. 

After working with property management business owners for over a decade, I've realized that the problems they are experiencing tend to be deeper than issues in the business… In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Sam Womack to discuss entrepreneurship, health, and how the two intertwine. You'll Learn [01:57] How stress affects your health [13:48] The impact of oxygen and proper relaxation [17:40] The importance of being able to calm your nervous system [26:10] More health expert insights   Tweetables “Everybody's doing the best they can with their current limited access to knowledge and resources.” “Don't beat yourself up for when you feel stressed out. Just make sure that before you continue that stress rollercoaster, like find some space to find some peace.” “You don't have to like beat all your competitors in a lot of instances, you just need to outlive them. You just need to outlast them.” “High performance isn't just how hard you push. It's about how well you recover and regulate.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sam: If you don't find time to balance your nervous system or don't work on implementing tools to balance your nervous system, then you are limiting yourself to lower performance in the short term and decreasing performance in the long term.  [00:00:15] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the Property Management Growth Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:37] Jason: So DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:21] Jason: Now let's get into the show. Cool.  [00:01:24] Jason: And I'm hanging out here with sam Womack. Sam, welcome to the show.  [00:01:29] Sam: Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to be here.  [00:01:31] Jason: Cool. So Sam we met at a local mastermind here in the Austin area, which is really cool. And for those that know that I run a mastermind for property managers, I also eat my own dog food and believe in getting coaching and learning and growth and everything else. [00:01:52] Jason: And wanted to connect with some people locally and make some friends as well. So, Sam's one of those friends. So, Sam, welcome to the show. And why don't you give people a little bit of background on yourself and what you do and how you kind of. Got into running businesses and doing cool stuff. [00:02:10] Sam: Yeah, no, thank you. First off, I don't do anything near as difficult as you guys. Managing property and tenants, I think is a feat to be held. And so props to all you guys out there crushing it in real estate. I cut my teeth in entrepreneurship starting at a young age. I was charging like 30 bucks an hour to teach old people how to use their computers, you know, tell their life story. [00:02:29] Sam: They'd pay me 30 bucks an hour while they sat there and henpecked. It was pretty ingenious. Fast forward into later on in life when the pandemic hit the business that I was launching just disappeared overnight. The retail died, everything that I've been working on, all the investors pulled out. [00:02:44] Sam: I was left with a few grand in my name and a baby on the way, living in a studio apartment with my wife. Had to figure something out, went into supply distribution, and a couple years later, fast forward, I did about 20 million in revenue as a solopreneur distributing gloves, masks, COVID test kits, etc. [00:03:01] Sam: But throughout that time, I dealt with like a really serious health issue. Stress had kind of overwhelmed me and I ended up with an autoimmune condition in my brain and through the journey of healing that autoimmune condition that was presenting as like early onset Alzheimer's, it was kind of a mystery. [00:03:16] Sam: They didn't know what was happening. I developed a deep passion for finding the root of health and the root of optimization and root of performance. A lot of that came through working with my mom, who's a preeminent physician focusing on anti aging and regenerative science here in Austin. [00:03:31] Sam: And so I typed her handwritten notes for a couple years and followed the patient journeys of the elite because she has a concierge practice for the elite here in Austin. And as I saw what drove change in their lives, I learned a lot about the human psyche and I learned a lot about how each of our individual unique biologies are very different when it comes to what we choose to do to find optimization or find optimal health. And so now I have a passion for bringing that to the masses. And as the pandemic waned, and as I healed, I became passionate about different physics based modalities and the different systems in the body and how to reach optimal performance. [00:04:07] Sam: And now I have a wellness center here in Austin that focuses on performance optimization, as well as maximizing human potential and transitioning the human experience as well as a research Institute called Human Beaming Research Institute, where we present the stories of the truth about health and where we help bring true health science to light so that people understand what's actually true, not truth that's manufactured by special interests, but truth that's founded in science. [00:04:36] Jason: Got it. Yeah. I mean, there's kind of a battle right now, right? We're like seeing it all play out live real time. Oh yeah. Got this whole make America healthy movement. We've got RFK, Bobby like and it seems like there's some major disruptions that are kind of happening right now and there's a battle and we're waking up. [00:04:58] Jason: A lot of people are waking up that hey, you know, big food, big pharma, you know, big government are not in favor of us being healthy for some reason, which is kind of scary. So yes, yeah kind of waking up to this and I don't know, maybe we're all biohackers now. I don't know.  [00:05:17] Sam: Yeah. No, I you're absolutely right I think that humanity as a whole is kind of done drinking the Kool Aid when it comes to what we've been told is the truth. [00:05:27] Sam: And, you know — [00:05:29] Jason: Yeah. Cause the Kool Aid has like glyphosate in it and like, also like molds and mycotoxins, like it's got bad stuff all over it. And I'm not saying actual Kool Aid. This is metaphorical people. Metaphorically.  [00:05:42] Sam: Yes. And when you look at like where, you know, just briefly to when you follow the money and you see that, like, from a business standpoint, one of the largest mergers and acquisitions in history, if you bring it to current dollar value was when big tobacco bought the food industry and you look at when that transition happened and you see what happened to our food supply and you know, we're fish in a barrel that they're just taking their pick of right now when it comes to what we have that's societally acceptable to put in our bodies and societally acceptable to engage in, in terms of social interaction, et cetera. [00:06:15] Sam: And it, yeah. Kind of funnels us down this path of high stress, which kind of takes us to today's topic with the nervous system. But yeah, I don't don't know if you have anything else you want to discuss before we dive in.  [00:06:25] Jason: Well, I want to point out. So Sam really sharp guy, as you can tell already, Sam's going to be a speaker at our DoorGrow Live conference. [00:06:35] Jason: And he's going to talk about some really cool stuff that we're very holistic at DoorGrow. And so I know that in coaching entrepreneurs and having talked to thousands of property management business owners and coaching hundreds of clients that it's never really the business or that they're spending too little time in their business that's keeping them from succeeding in business. It's everything else, especially health, especially their relationships, especially their marriage. Like these things create a lot of friction for entrepreneurs And they've got a lot going on. You're not really talking about property management when you come to DoorGrow Live, but I do believe it will be a game changer for them to be able to perform more, be able to get more out of their business, be able to get more out of life, which is the goal of having a business, right? [00:07:20] Jason: That's more freedom and more fulfillment. So, yeah. So if you have not yet gone to doorgrowlive.Com and gotten your tickets. Go do that right now. Go get your tickets and make sure you're at that event. Come hang out with us in North Austin at round rock at the Kalahari resort. It's going to be awesome. [00:07:36] Jason: All right. Shameless plug completed. Now, Sam, let's get into talking about the topic at hand.  [00:07:43] Sam: Yeah, I know. And thank you. And I'm really excited to get on stage and speak and I'm going to save some nuggets for the stage. Won't give it all the way here. So I'm really excited about that and helping you guys understand what the true root of your full potential actually is and not from some woo woo space, but actually understanding like the fundamental simple science beneath high performance and beneath fulfillment in life because it really does break down to a very simple equation. One of the key factors is a molecule, and that molecule is actually oxygen. [00:08:13] Sam: And when your brain is in a high stress state you would think that your body would give it more oxygen under high stress, right? But under high stress, you actually have vasoconstriction. Your blood pressure rises, blood gets pumped to your extremities, you got to get away from that proverbial bear, right? [00:08:29] Sam: But for y'all, that bear is the constant wave of tenant complaints, the constant wave of, you know, economic factors interest rate shifting stuff like that And so you have this like constant bear chasing you and if you're always in that state of fight or flight your brain is patterned to operate on survival mechanisms and a lower amount of oxygen and so And then we get this like male, sometimes male and female, but we get this, like this almost masculine energy of like, let's go conquer and do this high stress, high action push, push, push coffee, stimulant. [00:09:03] Sam: And we're really performing with our hands tied behind our back at that point, because our brain has less oxygen in it. And when you look at the other side of the nervous system, which is our parasympathetic nervous system you have this increase of oxygen in the brain. which actually raises serotonin instead of relying on that dopamine cortisol roller coaster, right? [00:09:24] Sam: And so, at the base of this is oxygen, which is bringing us life, which is creating ATP, cellular energy. And, to put it simply, If you don't find time to balance your nervous system or don't work on implementing tools to balance your nervous system, then you are limiting yourself to lower performance in the short term and decreasing performance in the long term. [00:09:48] Sam: Higher relying on stimulants, higher amounts of of just stress and cortisol and dopamine reliance in the long term, which takes away from your ability to connect with others, to find community, to find that real fulfillment that comes in life.  [00:10:02] Jason: And so what you're saying is we shouldn't just overdose on coffee that here in the U. S. probably has mold in it and makes you not feel good and have to pee way too much. And then not, you know, take care of ourselves in breathing effectively and getting too little sleep, too much hustle, too much stress.  [00:10:23] Sam: Yeah.  [00:10:24] Jason: Okay.  [00:10:24] Sam: Yeah, we can get addicted to that pattern because stress actually can feel really good. [00:10:30] Sam: When you have dopamine augmenting that cortisol, right? Without dopamine, cortisol feels really crappy. You know, you look at high anxiety. You look at that restlessness feeling where you don't feel good. You're on edge. That's when your cortisol's high and your dopamine is kind of low because you've been exhausting the dopamine stores by just pushing it. [00:10:50] Sam: Dopamine is supposed to be a short term reward to get us out of the stress back into a parasympathetic state. Dopamine was never meant to be the consistent ongoing reward. Because, like, think about it for survival, right? If you're, you know, trying to get away from the bear, and you're running, that needs to somewhat feel good, in order to get you through that stress. [00:11:11] Sam: So dopamine kicks in when oxygen lowers in the brain. And then, when you get out of the stress, you find that parasympathetic state again, you calm down, oxygen rises in the brain, serotonin rises, which is that more deeper, long term fulfilling chemical, that actually leads to creativity as well. But our society tells us that love is dopamine. It tells us that success is dopamine. It tells us achievement is dopamine. It gives us these dopamine triggers for all of the cultural hierarchy and the cultural validation, that external validation when you do something to succeed and you show it off, that's a dopamine trigger. Social media is a trigger. So all of these things, society is structured in a way that says, "dopamine's the reward. Now go buy shit, right?" Like almost all the financial economy is driven surrounding dopamine, which is a ultimate losing game because you guys all know that it doesn't really provide that end fulfillment, but since it feels good, we're kind of stuck in that loop. And so. What I want to help illuminate is where true fulfillment can be found and help with some kind of practical tools and a practical understanding of this foundational science so that when you're looking to perform at your best, you can give yourself a break and allow yourself to relax. [00:12:22] Sam: You know, before you have that next cup of coffee to keep yourself going, take some deep breaths, find some space to relax. Don't worry that your brain doesn't feel a hundred percent on. And give yourself some space to allow that peace in knowing that you're raising oxygen in the brain. You're opening oxygenation to areas that are going to drive creativity, that are going to allow for connection, that are going to allow for more presence in your body. [00:12:44] Sam: You'll be a different person in the home. You'll be a different person towards yourself. And so these are critical components of understanding the power of the nervous system when it relates to performance. Because high performance isn't just how hard you push. It's about how well you recover and regulate, and it's about how you create that balance that pushes for longevity and pushes for long term endurance and strength. [00:13:09] Sam: Because if you want to succeed and grow your business 5x, 10x, 100x, you need endurance. Sympathetic, nervous system tone, high stress does not create endurance. It's short term bursts, you crash out or you keep hitting the stimulants. And it keeps you in this narrow window of potential. You find that parasympathetic, you find that relaxation, you get creativity going in your brain, you get higher oxygenation in your brain, you're shifting gene expression towards longevity. [00:13:33] Sam: So it's a pretty powerful tool. And most people think, "oh, I don't want to meditate, you know, or I don't want to relax", or they don't feel safe when they're calm. And it's something to just work on shifting your perspective on because there's true power in that state of peace.  [00:13:48] Jason: A while back, I read this book. [00:13:50] Jason: I don't know if you heard of this. It's called the Oxygen Advantage. It's by a guy named Patrick Mckeown and it's got a forward by Dr. Joseph Mercola, but it's interesting because basically the book is about how he trains athletes to breathe through their nose while working out instead of their mouth, which like exercises the lungs and increases lung capacity. [00:14:15] Jason: But if they're, if we're constantly operating with our mouth open and working with our mouth open, we actually decrease our lung capacity. And so, athletes are just burning out really quickly and they don't have the ability or the capacity to, you know, absorb as much oxygen. So like working out those muscles, like breathing through your nose, you know, is something that talks about, but that's interesting that when we're not calm, we're not getting enough oxygen that we're not recovering, we're not regulating our stress, our body probably starts to eat itself a little bit and, you know, and then we get addicted to dopamine and you know, in business, most businesses fail and really you don't have to like beat all your competitors in a lot of instances, you just need to outlive them. You just need to outlast them. And that, that endurance aspect. And so I think, you know, I think we're going to go through some financial turmoil in the marketplace. Things are probably going to get worse before it gets better as we're cleaning up all this mess financially that is going on in the government. [00:15:18] Jason: And the U S dollar is like, I think it's been going down from its original value down and down as they've been stripping value out of it through inflation and giving that money to who knows who. And so. I think there's going to be a big transition. It's going to get really stressful. [00:15:33] Jason: And I think the businesses that are just able to last through this transition and endure and they're focused on the long game are the ones that are going to win.  [00:15:43] Sam: Absolutely.  [00:15:44] Jason: And there's going to be a lot just eaten up.  [00:15:46] Sam: Yeah. And if you don't allow that perspective of what you just explained about business to apply to your own self and your health, you know, what got you here won't get you there. [00:15:54] Sam: And if you want to sustain and succeed through the turmoil, then you need to adapt. And when you have a high stress state, you actually lose BDNF expression in the brain brain neurotropic factor and brain derived neurotropic factor. And that is our adaptability aspect and factor in our brain. And it literally decreases its efficiency, the higher, the more chronically stressed we are. [00:16:18] Sam: And so it's super important. You guys can look up BDNF and understand its role with oxygenation in the brain. And so fundamentally, you know, the more oxygenated your brain is, the greater your access to intuition, memory, and high level thinking. And those are key components to succeeding in business. [00:16:33] Sam: And when you are in a state of constant survival mode, constant reactivity, constant push, hustle, you lose that space to develop creative longterm solutions. You lose that space to be able to get that spark of inspiration on how to pivot around the corner and see around that corner or do something a little differently than what other people are doing. [00:16:55] Sam: And that's why even you look at like Thomas Edison, Benjamin Franklin, like they would love to access that like state estate, the theta state just akin to sleep. They would put like a lead ball in their hand over a metal plate. And then as they were falling asleep. It would drop and the ball would hit the metal plate wake them up and they'd have their pen and their quill and ink on the table with a candle and then they'd have their formula or problems they were trying to solve and then they'd go to solving it because that was deep parasympathetic state where that creativity was opened up brain oxygenation was opened up. And me, just like so many of y'all out there, like, I'm like, man, I do not like meditating, I do not like calming down, like slowing down.  [00:17:31] Jason: I mean, especially if we're addicted to dopamine and adrenaline, like slowing down feels like a waste of time.  [00:17:39] Sam: Oh yeah, it does. And so you, most of you have heard of dopamine, serotonin, and adrenaline slash norepinephrine, right? That's only 20 percent of our neurotransmitters. [00:17:51] Sam: Okay. What's the other 80 percent glutamate and GABA, right? Glutamate is the exitory neurotransmitter. So that's what animates our body. Think glutamate animate, but then GABA is what balances that. So GABA helps slow things down, shut things down. And it's kind of interesting that popular culture slash society, like you don't hear much about GABA. [00:18:13] Sam: And the reason why is because they're selling us GABA in the form of alcohol. Alcohol is a huge GABA receptor connector, so it just hits the GABA and you feel kind of calm and relaxed. And so people love alcohol to be social because you want to be in a slight more parasympathetic state to be social, right? [00:18:30] Sam: Because high stress doesn't lead to—  [00:18:32] Jason: What about scrolling on social media?  [00:18:33] Sam: Social media is going to be hitting dopamine, not so much the GABA. But scrolling social media is going to be giving dopamine, new information. Ooh, new information. I learned something new, like boom, like that constant external input stimulus. [00:18:45] Sam: But when you look at the importance of GABA and you understand that a lot of us aren't making it on our own, which is why we're staying in such a high stress state all day. Yeah. And then we take a GABAergic, like GABA or a benzo or some weed or something that, that can hit that, that GABA receptor instead of making our own endogenous GABA. [00:19:02] Sam: And that's what happens when you're in a parasympathetic state is your body is creating its own GABA to balance out the brain. And that's what drove me to developing a suite of tools called Peace on Demand that I have at my wellness center that are physics based modalities that drop you into that parasympathetic state without sitting there fighting against your brain and trying to force yourself to meditate. [00:19:21] Sam: And then also with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, that's another tool that induces a parasympathetic state over the course of the treatment. And so I found tools because my brain, I had a hard time controlling with the autoimmune disease that I had and how stressed and on fire my brain was, I had a lot of difficulty finding that space, but without those tools, you can still utilize things like breath work, even if it's just longer exhale than the time you're inhaling or like four seconds in, you know, hold for a little bit and then eight seconds out or seven seconds out. [00:19:48] Sam: That, that's just like the simplest form of breath work to kind of activate the vagus nerve and slow down that that nervous system and get you into a more parasympathetic state but it's really interesting when you see that some of the most creative people and the most successful people, they're not super high strung. At a certain point, you'll see a lot of successful people that are high strung. Push, push hustle. [00:20:10] Sam: But then you go to that next level. You look at like the Elon's of the world, or, you know, so these people are on that next level. You watch them speak. They're calm. They have this, you know, they go hype on at times to like reach certain goal. But then they also have that balance. So the key is balance. [00:20:26] Sam: Don't beat yourself up for when you feel stressed out. Just make sure that before you continue that stress rollercoaster, like find some space to find some peace, do some breathing, take a pause, give yourself that chance to take a break. That'll start developing some resiliency in your nervous system so that you don't burn out. [00:20:42] Jason: Yeah, it does seem like really high performers are highly adaptable to, you know, situations. So they move and adapt quickly. It seems like they are able to maintain some calm, but they also are really quick thinkers, like their thinking seems to be faster than normal. I notice for me, I get really frustrated with team members when they're not— [00:21:05] Jason: I'm like, "come on, this is super quick. Like, look how fast I can do this." And I'm like, "keep up." And so that becomes a little bit of a frustration. I'm like, why is everybody slow? I saw this really interesting thing. My son sent me this and he's really into football. And I guess there's some quarterbacks that are now training with VR. [00:21:23] Jason: Playing the game in VR and but they're doing it at 1. 5 speed. And so they're getting used to everything being fast and they've adapted to that. So then when they go and play, it feels like everything's in slow motion. And I was like, wait a sec. I listen to telegram messages at two speed. I listened to audio books at two, between 1.8 to two speed. Like, so my brain is probably more adapted to speed.  [00:21:49] Sam: Yes.  [00:21:50] Jason: And and so I'm able to process, I was just hanging out with somebody who has a lot more money than me, who runs, who's the CEO of Real, Sharran Srivatsaa. And he talks really fast and he thinks really fast. Like this guy is sharp. [00:22:03] Jason: And I'm like, how does he move so fast? You know? But also and he doesn't seem like stressed out or anything. One of the things I've noticed, maybe like sparks this GABA sort of thing is just for me, reading? Just reading, actually reading not like high speed audiobooks, but sitting down with a book and processing information, my body's in a calm state. I feel a really deep calm where I'm in a flow sort of state reading and absorbing and processing information. So I found that can be a really good tool for me. [00:22:34] Jason: Sarah and I go do your peace on demand thing, which is just awesome. And a game changer. It's really been helpful for Sarah. It's kind of, I compare it to doing a float session, having a really good float session which doesn't happen every time you do a float session, but it happens every time you do Peace on Demand and you don't have to get wet and naked, and nothing gets in your eyes or ears on accident sometimes and stings. [00:22:54] Jason: So that's nice. The other thing I've noticed is just walking. So I went and did EMDR therapy for a while, for like a year with a therapist, bilateral stimulation, both sides of the brain is the concept. And then I noticed like, well, walking is bilateral stimulation. And so that's like a free, very cheap version of EMDR therapy is just to go on walks. [00:23:14] Jason: And rather than running, which is like, Hey, stress response. I found walking is very calming, especially if I'm really stressed. If I go for a walk, it kind of signals to my body, "Hey, you're okay. You're not being chased by a saber tooth tiger right now." So your fight or flight, calm down. So those are the things that work for me. [00:23:32] Jason: I don't know, but those are great tools. I don't know.  [00:23:35] Sam: Yeah. So what those are doing are like, you mentioned a keyword there and that's safe, right? And so you're creating these environments. One, you're reading a book, gaining new knowledge, and you're not cramming the book in a stressed out state to try to memorize it for a test, right? Which so much of us get programmed in school at an early age, that like reading means like, focus hard and stress out over what you're reading. [00:23:56] Sam: But if you allow yourself to relax into that flow state, and you mentioned flow state as well, flow doesn't happen when you're in super high stress state. Some people We'll try to say, "Oh yeah, I'm in flow" because they've got like dopamine coursing and cortisol coursing and  [00:24:10] Jason: they're like manic and going crazy.  [00:24:12] Sam: Yeah, exactly. [00:24:13] Jason: They're busy, but they're not productive.  [00:24:15] Sam: Yeah. And when you get productive and when you feel like you're going fast and your team isn't responding fast enough, like you have that adaptability, you have that BDNF that's really efficient in your brain because you practice going in and out of these states and you spend a lot of time in this flow and in this GABA balanced state Where you're not hyper stressed out and one one thing that also on a biochemistry level explains some of this is: in a sympathetic nervous system response, your body is trying to find as much glucose as possible to burn glucose for fast quick energy, which creates oxidative stress on the body, which creates inflammation. And then your body has to like go clear out all the junk but it doesn't care that it's creating a bunch of junk to clear out, because it's trying to help you survive short term. [00:24:59] Sam: When you're in a parasympathetic state, you're looking at a—  [00:25:02] Jason: Does it make you crave sugar then?  [00:25:03] Sam: Yeah, so high stress makes you crave sugar. Whereas parasympathetic state, you're on a more fat burning metabolism. You're not creating as much oxidative stress. You're like expressing longevity genes. You're expressing anti inflammatory genes. [00:25:16] Sam: Your body literally shifts into almost a different state, not just mentally, but biophysically and biochemistry wise all throughout your body. You adapt based on the nervous system state that you allow. And that's where it does come down to personal responsibility to make the choice to start practicing finding this state that will empower so much more potential for your life than that narrow band of, you know, survival programming and high stress thinking. [00:25:46] Sam: And then it's better for your health longterm too, because you're not just compounding oxidative stress nonstop and then needing those negative inflammatory inputs to make your dopamine stay high. And you can just find that peace. And then you'll find a much higher level of performance and that flow state will start just happening naturally constantly, which is what's been happening for Jason as he's been practicing these things as well. [00:26:08] Jason: Got it. Okay. Very cool. So little teaser, what are you going to talk about a little bit at DoorGrow Live that will be revelatory or helpful for people that might be a little bit stressed in their business or are wanting to take their performance to the next level? And I just, I want to point out, the difference I've noticed just in clients doing time studies and things like this. [00:26:32] Jason: Some of my clients will, we can see in their time study that they, it takes them in the latter half of the day, like the afternoon, an hour to do stuff that takes them 10 minutes in the morning. They're just, they're running out of brain chemicals. They're running out of like, what are neurotransmitter chemicals that they produce while sleeping? [00:26:51] Jason: They're now no longer productive and efficient, even though they're working really hard and they're really busy. And so, so yeah, maybe you could tease a little bit. What could we talk about there that might optimize their productivity so that they could actually feel superhuman and get two to three times the amount of output with the same amount of work or stress or effort? [00:27:14] Sam: Yeah, so we're going to go into a little bit more detail on some other aspects of the foundations of performance. So today we focused on nervous system, which is key. But. Controlling our nervous system isn't just as easy as thinking about it. There's some environmental factors. There's some lifestyle choices we can make. Often, we have a really hard time making those changes due to the, those well worn grooves, like, you know, skis on a slope that are really hard to get out of. And so I'm going to help with some simple truths that you'll understand and make it a lot easier to start making small shifts that will create massive change and that don't have to be stressful or induce anxiety or feel hard. It'll actually feel easy. So I'm going to help you understand some fundamental truths about your biology and That will unlock unlimited potential.  [00:28:03] Jason: Yeah, because I think every entrepreneur listening, myself included, I'm sure you as well, have been in those time periods where you feel like you're working so hard and you're investing so much time and energy, and you're going nowhere like it feels like you're just treading water and you're burning yourself out and you're like, "why am I not adding hundreds of doors? Why am I not growing my business? Why am I not getting ahead? Why am I seeing idiots get further along than me?" You know, like, " why is this not working for me?" And and I think that all plays into that like that. Everything you're talking about plays into that.  [00:28:41] Sam: You'll find yourself having permission to make some changes and the permission is a key aspect of that courage and that bravery to choose something different to focus on something different. [00:28:56] Sam: I mean, we all hear where you, where your attention goes, your focus grows, you know, and what you focus on is what you create, you know, all these things. What does that fundamentally and literally mean when it comes to the way we choose our life experience? And what can we create when our choices change and how can we be empowered to make those choices? [00:29:16] Sam: Those are some of the more intricate topics that we'll discuss.  [00:29:19] Jason: Got it. Almost like shifting from feeling like, "Hey, I'm giving up something or sacrificing in some way that in actuality, you're getting more."  [00:29:30] Sam: Oh, so much more. Exactly. So much more. Yeah. Cool.  [00:29:34] Jason: So. Those of you listening, I'm guessing you're growth oriented, growth minded. [00:29:39] Jason: You want to get more. Come to DoorGrow Live. Come hear Sam talk. So cool. Sam, appreciate you coming here on the #DoorGrowShow. If people are hanging out in Austin or curious about what you're up to, how can they find you? Peace on Demand. Tell them about your stuff and how people might be able to follow you or get in touch. [00:29:58] Sam: Yeah. So we have a small wellness center here. It's a private, you know, high touch concierge space, very comfortable here in Austin. And it's open for business by appointment only but just go to beamhyperbarics.Com and you can book an appointment. If you want to reach out to me I am Sam Womack. [00:30:15] Sam: On Instagram or you can send a message through the website. Easier website to remember is beam.do B E A M dot D O. And yeah, just reach out, come hang out. You don't even have to buy something to come in. Just hit me up. We'll make sure that I'm around and we can sit on the couch in the back and talk life. [00:30:34] Jason: All right. Awesome, Sam. Appreciate you coming on and excited to have you at DoorGrow Live.  [00:30:40] Sam: Yeah. I'm excited as well. Looking forward to it. I love what you're doing. And I think the steps that you're taking to help empower people beyond just showing them tactics and strategies, but helping them live a more fulfilled and empowered life. [00:30:50] Sam: That's what it's all about. So thank you for that work you're doing.  [00:30:53] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. We've just noticed like we can give them all the right tactics and strategies, but if they don't incorporate the other things, it's kind of like you're trying to run a race up the mountain with rocks in your backpack, like boulders, you know, it's just, it's so much more efficient if we get everything else in alignment and usually it's never the business piece that's really what's holding them back. It's not the tactics it's mindset. It's their mental health. It's like everything else, their family. Yeah. So we're excited to bring you and some others that are going to just unlock a lot of things for our clients and for non clients that are coming to DoorGrow Live. [00:31:32] Jason: So appreciate you.  [00:31:34] Sam: Yeah, you bet. Thank you. And just one last thing is you guys are all doing such a great job too. Like, don't think of this as any type of a criticism or, "Oh, you're not doing good enough." Like you're doing such an excellent job with the tools that you were programmed with the upbringings you had with the environment you're in. [00:31:48] Sam: So like, just look at it as a chance to learn something new and be empowered by it. But you guys are all doing such a great job. And so keep it up.  [00:31:56] Jason: Yeah, everybody's doing the best they can with their current limited access to knowledge and resources that they put out. Whatever. All right, cool. Awesome, Sam. I'll let you go. All right. So, if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're wanting to add doors or increase your profit or lower your stress, reach out to us at DoorGrow we would love to help you grow and scale your business. You can check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you're wanting to join our free community, get a little bit more info about us, hang out with some other property managers, go to DoorGrow club. com to join our free community and connect with other property managers and get some cool free stuff. And until next time to our mutual growth, everybody. Hope you all crush it. Bye everyone. [00:32:38] Jason: You just listened to the DoorGrowShow We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com Listen everyone is doing the same stuff SEO PPC pay-per-lead content social direct mail and they still struggle to grow at DoorGrow We solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business Find out more at doorgrow.com Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe until next time take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

I speak with Khe Hy, who spent 15 years on Wall Street and became one of the youngest Managing Directors at BlackRock at just 31. He earned up to $2 million a year—then he quit! His journey mirrors mine in many ways, though he earned significantly more. I thought it would be fascinating to understand why he chose to walk away from such wealth. Could you give up $1-2 million a year in your mid-to-late 30s? I don't think I could. But then again, I sometimes forget just how miserable and unhealthy I felt working on Wall Street. He now spends time with his family, writing his Radreads newsletter and recording The Examined Life podcast. → The RadReads email newsletter and blog http://radreads.co/join → The Examined Life Podcast https://pod.link/1692585605 If you enjoyed this conservationed, I'd love a share and a positive review. Every review counts! Special Promo: Get A Free Financial Checkup For those with over $250,000 in investable assets who want a free financial checkup, you can schedule an appointment with an Empower financial advisor here (https://www.financialsamurai.com/advisor). If you complete your two video calls with the advisor before October 31, 2024, you'll receive a free $100 Visa gift card. With stock market volatility returning and a potential recession on the horizon, it's wise to get a second opinion from a professional. Illuminate financial blindspots you don't know you have and better optimize your finances. The last thing you want is to be misallocated relative to your financial goals and risk tolerance. When you lose money, you ultimately lose precious time.  Again, you can schedule your free financial consultation here. If you do not see a link copy and paste this URL in your browser: https://www.financialsamurai.com/advisor The statement is provided to you by Financial Samurai (“Promoter”) who has entered into a written referral agreement with Empower Advisory Group, LLC (“EAG”). Click here to learn more. Regards, Sam You can join 60,000+ others and subscribe to the free Financial Samurai newsletter here. Financial Samurai began in 2009 with the goal of helping readers achieve financial freedom sooner, rather than later. 

I catch up with Andre Nader, ex-Facebook employee about what he's been up to one year after leaving his day job.  We talk about being a stay-at-home dad, the temptation of going back to work, buying property in San Francisco, and his FAANG FIRE newsletter he publishes twice a month. It is the only newsletter I've read that helps tech workers achieve financial independence.  If you enjoy this episode please rate and review! It helps us grow. Please also share the episode to those who you think would find it useful.  Regards, Sam You can join 60,000+ others and sign up for my free weekly newsletter here. 

Welcome to episode 71. If you're juggling a million different tasks and haven't got a system for managing them, then there's every chance you're feeling overwhelmed and pretty stressed out. It's time to take control and get sh*t done! Today we talk about the importance of writing everything down. From those quick distractions to long-term plans, keeping track of it all is essential for balancing our lives and keeping on-track with our goals. Tune in for practical ways you can manage your list and keep the headspace you need free for joy, freedom and happiness. Let's dive in! In this episode: ·         Heads are for doing not remembering – how we can free up headspace to keep ourselves productive. ·         Apps, tech and tools to help you manage your to-do list and your life. ·         There is no ‘right' way to create your list. Everyone is different so do what's right for you.   Today's episode was brought to you in association with Sam Brown Made Simple by Sam You can follow her here: Instagram @made_simple_by_sam LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/sambrownmadesimplebysam/   Remember to hit SUBSCRIBE or FOLLOW so you don't miss any new episodes; subscribe to my mailing list and connect with me over on Instagram @clearyourday If you would like to know more about how coaching works or to work with me 1-2-1, please visit https://www.clear-day.co.uk/coaching/ For more tips and to be part of the community, sign up to The No Bullshit Guide To A Happier Life Facebook Group now! Have you got a copy of the The No Bullsh*t Guide to a Happier Life book? Follow this link to purchase yours now!

Hello hello! Today I've got for you another between-season bonus episode. This time we're breaking format to talk about i know the end, a module I published earlier this year about going back home after a long time away and all the horrors that entails. Because if you can't occasionally publish something self-indulgent in your podcast feed, what's even the point of having one?My cohost for this is my friend Nico MacDougall, the current organizer of The Awards, who edited i know the end and had almost as much to say about it as I did.For maximum understanding of this episode, you can pick up a free copy of the module here and follow along (or skim it in advance).Further reading:The original i know the end cover artThe “oops all PBTA moves” version of i know the endThree of my short filmsMy previous written designer commentaries on Space Train Space Heist and CouriersJohn Harper talking with Andrew Gillis about the origins of Blades in the DarkThe official designer commentary podcasts for Spire and HeartAaron Lim's An Altogether Different River, which comes with a designer commentary versionCamera Lucida by Roland Barthes, a photography theory book that we talked about during recording but which I later cut because I remembered most of the details about it incorrectlyWhat Is Risograph Printing, another topic cut from the final recording because I got basically everything about it wrong while recording (the background texture of the module is a risograph printed texture)Before Sunrise by Richard LinklaterQuestionable Content by Jeph JacquesSocials:Nico's carrd page, which includes links to their socials, editing rates, and The Awards.Sam on Bluesky, Twitter, dice.camp, and itch.The Dice Exploder logo was designed by sporgory, and our theme song is Sunset Bridge by Purely Grey.Join the Dice Exploder Discord to talk about the show!Transcript:Sam: Hello and welcome to Dice Exploder. Normally each week we take a tabletop RPG mechanic, bait our lines with it, and cast them out to see, to see what we can catch. But you hear that different intro music? That means this episode I'm doing something much more self indulgent, a designer commentary on a module I released earlier this year called I Know the End.And just a heads up here at the top, to get the most out of this, you probably want to have at least read through the module in question before, or as, you're listening. I threw a bunch of free copies up on itch for exactly this purpose, so feel free to go run and grab one. I'll wait.Anyway, I love designer commentaries. You can find a few of my old written ones, as well as links to a few of my favorites from other people, in the show notes. But I wanted to try releasing one as a podcast, because one, that sounds fun, and two, what's the point of having a podcast feed if you can't be ridiculously self indulgent in it on occasion?And I picked I Know The End to talk about because it is... weird. I don't know. It's weird. I describe it on itch as a short scenario about returning home and all the horrors that entails. But you'll hear us take issue with, I don't know, maybe every word in that sentence over the course of this commentary. It was a strange experience to make this thing, and I figured that might be interesting to hear about.It was also the first time I ever worked with an editor Nico MacDougall my friend and the organizer behind The Awards since 2023. Nico was excellent to work with and you can find their rates and such in the show notes and they are with me today to talk through this thing in excruciating detail as you probably noticed from the runtime we had a lot to say. Definitely contracted two guys on a podcast disease. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this. But regardless, I'd love to hear what you think of it. Should I do more? Never again? Want to organize the Dice Exploder Game Jam we mused about doing at the end of this? Hit me up! I'd love to hear from you. And now, here is myself, I guess, and Nico MacDougall, with a full designer's commentary on I Know The End.Nico: Well, Sam, thanks for being here on your podcast to discuss your... adventure.Sam: You're welcome.Nico: Yes.Sam: for having me.Nico: Very first question is adventure: is that really, like, the right term for this?Sam: Are we really starting here? Like, I, I don't know. I, I feel like I got, I really went into this thing with true intentions to write a proper module, you know? Like I was thinking about OSR style play for like the first time in my life, and like, we were both coming out of the awards 2022 judging, and a lot of the submissions for 2022 the Awards were modules. I thought that was great but it really was sort of like opening the floodgates of this style of play that I knew basically nothing about. And, at the same time that we were reading through all 200 submissions for the awards, I was also reading Marcia B's list of 100 OSR blog posts of some influence.And so I was really drinking from the fire hose of this style of play, and also, I wasn't playing any of it. Like, I was experimenting with Trophy Gold a little bit, which is this story game that is designed to try to play OSR modules and dungeons as, like, a story game kind of experience. And I was kind of figuring out how it works and like how I wanted to run it and how to make it go And Joe DeSimone, who was running the awards at the time was just encouraging everyone to make weirder shit and like, that was his ethos and those were the people that he got to submit to the awards. Like, it was just the weirdest stuff that I had ever read in the RPG space and... That's probably a lie. There's some weird stuff out there.It was just like so much weird stuff. It was like stuff on the bleeding edge of a whole side of the hobby that I didn't participate in in the first place. My intro to this part of the hobby was the bleeding edge of it. And I was like, alright, I, I just wanna make something there, I wanna try playing around there and see what happens.And Joe tweeted out the tweet was like, Now we're all making modules based on songs that make us cry. And I was listening to the Phoebe Bridgers album Punisher on loop at the time to inspire a screenplay I was working on. And the last track is called I Know the End, and just ends with this, primal scream.And it was, it was a hard fall for me, at the time. And the primal scream felt really cathartic. And I was spending a lot of time in the, small town where I grew up. And, this horror monster idea of a town that is, itself, an entity and like is a whole monster, and like, what does that mean exactly? I don't know, but intuitively, I like, understand it, and we're just gonna kind of drive... towards my intuitive understanding of what this thing is supposed to be. I just decided to do that and see what happened. And did that give us an adventure in the end? I don't know. Did that give us a 32 page long bestiary entry in the form of a module? Like, that sounds closer to right to me, but also, taxonomies are a lie and foolish anyways.I don't know, I made a weird thing, here it is. Nico: Yeah. So I was scrolling back in our, in our conversation to where you first shared this with me, and I... I would like to share with the audience the text that accompanied it. It was the Google Doc, and then it said, This might be completely unplayable, it might actually be a short story, or, like, a movie, but I'm gonna publish it anyway, and, you know... If that isn't exactly it, like...Sam: Yeah I like that stuff. I don't know, another thing I've been thinking about a lot this fall is writing by stream of consciousness. Like, I realized that I don't have a lot of confidence in any of my work that I feel like I created quickly. Like, the RPG thing I'm most well known for, I think, is Doskvol Breathes, which I just pumped out in an afternoon. It was just a thought that I had on a whim about how you might play blades in the dark maybe. And I finished it and then I released it and people were like, this is amazing. And I still get complimented on it all the time. I'm still really proud of it, but it, I don't have any confidence in it because it came so quickly.And, like, I know that this is something I need to, like, talk about in therapy, you know, about, like, It's not real art unless I worked on it for six months straight, like, really worked my ass off. But this process, I sort of looked back over my career as a screenwriter, as a short filmmaker, as a game designer, and started realizing just how many of my favorite things that I've made came from exactly that process of the whole idea kind of coming together all at once in like one sitting. And even if it then took like a bunch of months of like refining like it's wild to me How much of my favorite work was created by following my intuition, and then just leaving it be afterwards.Nico: Yeah, I actually did want to ask about the similarity between your, like, process for TTRPG design versus screenwriting, cause... While I have read, you know, edited this, but also, like, read your your game design work and know relatively well your thoughts on, like, you know, just game design sort of theory and stuff in general, I have never read any, like, screenwriting stuff that you've done. Although, lord knows I hope to see it someday. Sam: Well, listen, if anyone listening to this wants to read my screenplays, I'm on Discord. You can find me and I'll happily share them all. My old short films are largely available on the internet, too. You know, maybe I'll link a couple in the show notes.Nico: oh yeah,Sam: But I I think of my process for screenwriting as really, really structural.Like, I, I'm a person who really came out of needing a plot and needing to know what happens in a story, and to really especially need to know the ending of a story so I know kind of what I'm going towards as I'm writing the thing. I outline like really extensively before I write feature or a pilot, like there's so much planning you have to do, I think it is really, really hard to write any kind of screenplay and not have to revise it over and over and over again, or at least like plan really carefully ahead of time and like really think about all the details, revise a lot, run it by a lot of people for feedback over and over. But especially for me that, that having an ending, like a target in mind when I'm writing is so important. I just don't know how to do it without that.Except occasionally when I get some sort of idea like this one where I have a feeling of vibe and I just start writing that thing and then eventually it's done. And I, I've never had that happen for a feature film screenplay or like a TV pilot kind of screenplay.But I have had a couple of short films come together that way where I don't know what the thing is, I just know what I am writing right now, and then it's done, and then I go make it. And I I don't know why that happens sometimes. Nico: Yeah, I mean I would imagine length plays a factor in it, right? Like a short film, or, I mean, gosh, how many pages did I know the end, end, end up being? Sam: 36. Nico: But I find that really fascinating that, too, that you say that when you're screenwriting, you have to have it really structural, really outlined, an end specifically in mind, when, to me, that almost feels like, well, not the outlining part, but having an end in mind feels almost antithetical to even the idea of, like, game design, or, I guess, TTRPG design, right?Even the most sort of relatively pre structured, Eat the Reich, Yazeeba's Bed and Breakfast, like, Lady Blackbird games, where the characters are pretty well defined before any human player starts interacting with them, you can never know how it's going to end. And it's kind of almost against the idea of the game or the, the sort of art form as a whole to really know that.Even games that are play to lose, like, there are many games now where it's like, you will die at the end. And it's like, okay, but like, that's not really the actual end. Like, sure, it's technically the end, but it's like, we have no idea what's gonna be the moment right before that, or the moment before that. As opposed to screenwriting Sam: yeah, it's a, it's a really different medium. I still think my need to have a target in mind is something that is really true about my game design process too.Like the other game that I'm well known for, well known for being relative here, but is Space Train Space Heist, where I was like, I have a very clear goal, I want to run a Blades in the Dark as a one shot at Games on Demand in a two hour slot. And Blades in the Dark is not a game that is built to do that well, so I want to make a game that is built to do that well, but like, captures everything about the one shot Blades in the Dark experience that I think is good and fun .And that may not be a sort of thematic statement kind of ending, like that's what I'm kind of looking for when I'm writing a screenplay, but that is a clear goal for a design of a game.Nico: Yeah. even In the context of I know the end, and to start talking a little bit about my role in this as well, as, as the editor, I think the point of view, the vibe, the, like, desired sort of aesthetic end point Was very clear from the start, from the jump. And I think that in many ways sort of substitutes for knowing the end of the story in your screenwriting process.So that really helped when I was editing it by focusing on like, okay, here's the pitch. How can I help sort of whittle it down or enhance it or change stuff in order to help realize that goal.And sometimes it kind of surprises me even, like, how much my games shift and change as they reach that goal. Like, sometimes you can, like, look back at old versions of it, and you're like, wow, so little of this is still present. But, like, you can see the throughline, very sort of Ship of Theseus, right? Like, you're like, wow, everything has been replaced, and yet, it's, like, still the thing that I wanted to end up at.Sam: Yeah, another thing that is, I think, more true of my screenwriting process than my game design process is how very common that in the middle of the process I will have to step back and take stock of what was I trying to do again? Like, what was my original goal? I've gotten all these notes from a lot of different people and, like, I've done a lot of work and I've found stuff that I like.And what was I trying to do? Like, I have, all this material on the table now, I have, like, clay on the wheel, and, like, I just gotta step back and take a break and refocus on, like, what are we trying to do. I Think it's really important to be able to do that in any creative process.To Tie together a couple of threads that we've talked about here, talked at the beginning of this about how much this felt like a stream of consciousness project for me, that I really just like, dumped this out and then like, let it rip.But also, I mean, this was my first time working with an editor, and I think you did a lot of work on this to make it way better, like really polish it up and make those edges the kind of pointy that they wanted to be, that this game really called for. And that makes this, in some ways, both a really unstructured process for me, and then a really structured process, and... I don't know what to make of that. I think there's something cool about having both of those components involved in a process. Nico: Yeah, it is. I I very much agree that like, yeah, most of my sort of design stuff have, has proceeded very much the same way of just kind of like sporadically working on it, changing stuff, like revamping it, whatever. And it's like, it's sort of, yeah, in a constant state of fluxx up until the moment where I'm like, okay, I guess it's done now.What I was gonna say, I was gonna jump back just a point or two which is you mentioned Clayton Notestein's Explorer's Design Jam. And I was curious, like, what was your experience, like, using that design template? Sam: Yeah I really enjoyed it, I really had a good time with it. I had already gotten really comfortable with InDesign just teaching myself during lockdown. Like, that's what I did for 2020, was I, like, laid out a bunch of games myself and they all looked like shit, but they all taught me how to use InDesign as a program.And I think templates are really, really valuable. Like it's so much easier to reconfigure the guts of another template than it is to create something from scratch.And I like Clayton's template. I think it's nice and clean. I think you can see in all the publications that have come out using Clayton's template, how recognizable it is. How little most people stray from the bones of it, and on the one hand, I think it's amazing that you can just use the template and go really quickly and like, get something out.And also I just want to push on it a little bit more. I want something, like the template is designed to be a template. It is not a suit tailored to whatever your particular project is. But also, I think if I had tried to lay this out without a template, it would look substantially worse, and there are a few notable breaks here and there that I, you know, I enjoyed experimenting with. I like the use of the comments column for little artwork. I think that was a nice little innovation that I added.And, you know, I didn't write this originally to have that sort of commentary column as a part of it. Like, all of the text was just in the main body of it. And I like the way it turned out to have that sort of, like, director's commentary thing hanging out in the wings. lot of people have talked about how much they like that in Clayton's template. so I, I don't know, like I, think that on the one hand a template really opens up a lot of possibilities for a lot of people and really opened up a lot of possibilities for me, and on the other hand I do still look at it and I see the template And I'm like, I hope this doesn't look too much like every other person whoNico: Right, right. I mean, that is definitely the difficulty of providing those kinds of tools, because like, it makes it very easy to make things especially if you're sort of just getting started, or if you don't have a lot of confidence or familiarity with it inDesign or anything like that. But ultimately, I feel like Clayton himself would say that the Explorer's Design Template is not intended to be, like, the final template, right? It's intended to be, like, a tool that you can use to varying effects, right?Yeah, I was thinking about it when I was going through this earlier, and I was like, Oh, yeah, like, you only use the comments, column a few times, and then I literally only realized maybe five minutes before you said it, I was like, oh, wait, all the little artwork is also in that little column thing, like you just said, and I was like, oh, that's like, that's actually a really cool way to use the template, because that space is already provided if you include that column, but just because you have the column that's, you know, quote unquote, intended for commentary, doesn't mean you have to use it for commentary, doesn't mean you have to put text in there.Sam: Yeah, you definitely like learn a lot of stuff about the guts of the thing as you start playing with it.Nico: Yeah. is probably getting on the level of, like, pretty pointless, sort of what ifs, but I'm curious... If Clayton hadn't done the Explorer's Design Template Jam, or if you had, for whatever reason, like, not been inspired to use that as the impetus to, like, make this and get it edited and laid out and published or whatever, like, Do you think you still would have tried to use that template, or would you have just tried to lay it out yourself, like you've done in the past?Sam: Honestly, I think without the jam this wouldn't exist. I have like a long to do list of things at any given time, like creative projects I wanna on, youNico: Oh, yeah,Sam: know? And the thing that brought this to the top of that to do list was just wanting to have something to submit into that jam. You know, I wanted to work with you as an editor. I Always want to clear something off the to do list. I always want to have some kind of creative project. And, I wanted to submit something to that jam, but I think if you took any one of those away, I might not have put the thing out at all. Nico: Yeah, that's really interesting. But I guess that's also, again, kind of what a good template or layout or just tool in general can help is actually get these things made. Sam: That's what a good jam can do, too, right? I mean, there's a reason the Golden Cobra contest is something that I love. It's like 40 new LARPs every year and they only exist because the Golden Cobra is throwing down the gauntlet.Nico: That's very true. Well, maybe it's time to move along to more practical concerns Sam: Maybe it's time to do the actual commentary part of this episodeWe've done the waxing philosophical part, butNico: we, yeah, checked off that Dice Exploder box. Now it's time to do the actual game talk.Sam: your bingo cards Nico: Yeah, Sam: Yeah, so let's start with the cover.Nico: Yes, the cover, which I only realized it was a teeth, that it was a mouth with teeth open when you said in the outline, ah yes, it's a mouth with teeth. And I looked at it and I was like... Oh my god, it is. Like,Sam: I did my job so well. I wanted it to be subtle, but I always like looked at it and was like it's so obviously teeth, I'm never gonna get this subtle enough. But I'm I'm glad to hear that I succeeded.Nico: I truly don't know what I thought it was before, but it definitely wasn't teeth.Sam: Yeah. Well, it started as I'll share this in the show notes. It started as this image. It was like a 6x9 layout, and, the teeth were still there, and it was like, all black, and the teeth were this much wider, gaping maw, like, inhuman, unhinged jaw kind of situation. And then, in the middle of it, was a, like, live laugh love kind of Airbnb sign with I Know The End on it. It was like the mouth, like, eating the sign.And I liked that. I felt like, the problem with that was that... As much as creepy, live, laugh, love sign is kind of the like, vibe of this, I didn't really want to bring in the like, kitsch of that at all, like, I felt like that kitschiness would hang over the whole thing if I made it the cover, and I mean, this whole thing is just about my own personal emotional repression, right? And my feelings about my small town that I'm from, andabout like, my ambition, and, exactly, yeah.But I, I write a lot, and I make a lot of art about emotional repression , and I think the particular vibe of this game's repression doesn't have space for irony, or satire, or like, Do you wanna live, laugh, love? Like, I don't know how else to put it. Like, it just felt really wrong.It was like, if you put that into the space at all, it's gonna curdle the whole feeling. Nico: it's about the framing of it. I, know that Spencer Campbell of Gila RPGs has written something about this on his blog. I don't remember specifically what the context is, but he's a psychologist by training and is talking about how, like, the way that you frame something matters a lot to how people respond to it, right?So you like, if you're framing it as like, oh, you have, twelve things and I take away six from you, versus like, oh, you have nothing and then you are given six things. It's like, both scenarios, you like, end up with six but Sam: One feels like a letdown and one feels great. Yeah,Nico: yeah, and so I think in his article he was talking about in the, yeah, you know, tying that into the game design context, obviously.And I think it matches here where like, sort of runs the risk of like, priming people to expect kitsch, and I don't think that that's really present in the rest of the game. And that kind of mismatched expectations could really, like, lead to some problems when people are trying to, like, play the game.Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean this cover is just kind of like, oh. Like, it doesn't it doesn't really tell you much other than just like there's something back there that's maybe vaguely menacing, and that's kind of it. That's kind of Nico: Yeah.Sam: Alright, speaking of which can we, can we talk about my favorite interaction between the two of us as we were working on this?Nico: Oh, yeah, I was not sure how to bring that up. yes, please do. Now that we're moving on to... For everyone following along at home, we are proceeding to the credits page.Sam: The comment I got from you while you were editing this was, IDK if it would look different in print, but having the text so close to the edge of the page is activating my fight or flight response. And I just replied, working as intended.Nico: It yeah, I had the feeling, I think, even when I sent that, I was like, this, this is not like an accident. Like, like, like no one makes this like no one does this by accident. But, yes, truly, I hope that you are following along at home because I believe that Sam generously gave a whole bunch of community copies of this game, or made them available. Sam: I believe it was 42, 069 I'm usually doing some number like that. This game, I might have done a different number, but that's, the other games that I've done.Nico: So, but the text on this, for credits page specifically, it's truly, like, at the edge of the page. Like, it looks like it could be cut off. It's like, in print, it would be like, cut off by the process of actually like, making it. In fact, feels like if you try to send it to a printer, they could almost send it back and be like, you've gotta give us some space there. Like, you simply can't do that. There needs to be a gutter, or bleed, or whatever the term is. Like, Sam: I love it. maybe one day I will print this. Honestly, like if I become a super famous game designer or something, like, this is one of the ones that I Nico: screen, slash screenwriter.Sam: yeah, yeah. This is one of the ones I'd like to go back and hold in my hand, but I also I don't know, I just love it. I, I love designing for digital as, like, a primary thing, because I just feel like most people who play the thing are gonna play it out of digital.And I don't know if that's, like, the primary audience for a lot of modules. Like, I think there are a ton of people out there who just, like, buy the zine and hold the zine in their hand and probably never get around to playing it. But I, I love the digital. I've always loved the digital. I don't know, I just like making for it.Nico: Well I mean I was even thinking about it in the context of like, you know, how you talked about how you changed the aspect ratio, I was like thinking about that and I was like, I mean, it's not like that would be impossible to print, but like, most standard commercial printers operate in like, one of the more standard like, page sizes. Even the risograph you said is what it's called, right?Sam: The, the RISO. Yeah, I don't know if it's Rizzo or RISO, but I'm gonna sayNico: The RISO background also makes the, again, just from like a fully practical point of view, it's like you're adding color to the whole thing,Like there are many potential barriers to this as like a physical product that would, that are simply not there when you're designing for digital, so like, it is nice to have that sort of freedom, like, when you're thinking about how to lay this out or, or put stuff on here, it's like, you're freed from a lot of those practical considerations.Sam: There's a few other details I want to talk about on this page just kind of like references I'm making that are not obvious.So the first is that the header font and title font of I Know The End is a font that I ripped from Lilancholy, which is this amazing book by Snow, which is ostensibly a game, but but also a reflection on childhood and personal relationship to emotions and trauma.And I love the look of the font, but I also intentionally wanted to reference that game while I was making something that felt really personal in a similar vein. And another another reference here is that the color of the whole game, like this red, is pulled from the cover art for the Phoebe Bridgers album Punisher that I know the end is off of. I, I just found the, like, most saturated red pixel that I could on the album and was like, that's the color! I love hiding little references in every little detail that I can. Nico: Yeah, it's so interesting because I did not know any of that, you know, prior to this conversation or seeing that stuff on the outline. What did you sort of hope to achieve with those references, right? Because I can't imagine that you're plan was like, for someone to look at it and be like, oh my god, that's the Lilancholy font, and that's the Phoebe Bridgers album Sam: that's one pixel from that album cover.Yeah.What am I trying to achieve? I don't know, like there's, so the Paul Thomas Anderson movie Phantom Thread Is an amazing movie, and it's about Daniel Day Lewis being incredibly serious, scary Daniel Day Lewis, making dresses, being a tailor, and an element of the movie is that he hides his initials inside the dresses, like, when he's making them, he, like, sews his initials in.And that's a real thing that, that people did, and maybe it's just for him. It's also kind of an arrogant thing to do, you know, that all these, like, women are gonna be walking around wearing these dresses with, like, his initials kind of, like, carved, it's like this power thing. But my favorite part of it is that Phantom Thread is PT, also known as Paul Thomas Anderson.Nico: Ha Sam: And, like, like, I, I just feel like when you're doing that kind of thing, it's just, what an act, it's just so beautiful and arrogant and satisfying. Like I think doing that kind of little reference and joke for myself brings me into the mindset of what I am trying to convey with the game.Like, if I'm thinking in the detail of the font selection, what do I want to reference? What do I want to bring to this game? Then, I'm gonna be I'm gonna be thinking about that in every other choice I'm making for the game, too. And even if half of those choices end up being just for me, I will have been in the headspace to make the other half that are for everyone else, too.Nico: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. like, You could almost even call these, like, Easter eggs, right?But it also made me think about, I had to look this up actually as you were talking, because I was like, about that, the CalArts classroom number that like all of the animators that studied there fit into like Pixar movies and stuff, like, A113, A113. And I think that's also sort of a good example of it in some ways, because it's like now, with the advent of the internet, and you know, and a certain way of engaging with media, like, everyone knows what that, what that means now, or they could if they just looked it up, or they just see some BuzzFeed, you know, article that's like, you know, 50 easter eggs that you missed in the latest Pixar movie.But yeah, it's like, it's very interesting because it kind of asks who is the movie for? What's the intended or imagined audience for all of these things? And it sort of shows that, like, you can have multiple audiences or multiple levels of engagement with the same audience, like, at the same time. Maybe, I would say, it's very unlikely that any random person would just like, look at the cover of I Know The End and be like, oh, that's the Lilancholy font, but,Sam: I have had someone say that to me, though. Yeah.Nico: but, so, what I was just gonna say is like, but I don't think it's hard to imagine that like, the type of person who would, who would buy, who would be interested in I Know The End or Lilancholy, I think there's a pretty decent chance that they would be interested in the other if they're interested in one of them, right?And so it is interesting as well, where it's like, I am often surprised by like the ability of people to sort of interpret or decipher things that far outweighs my sort of expectations of their ability to do so.If only just because I have the arrogance to be like, well no one could ever have a mind like mine. Like, no one could ever think in the specific bizarre way that I do. Then it's like actually a surprising number of people think in a very similar way. Sam: Another thing I think about with making these really, really tiny references, easter eggs, it's the, not making a decision is making a decision, right? CentrismNico: Oh,Sam: Like, if you have literally anything that you have not made a choice about with intention, that is a missed opportunity, I think.And... I have so much respect for people who will just pump something out, like, write a page of a game and, like, upload as a DocX to itch. Like, Aaron King is a genius, and I know a lot of games that are put out that way, and I love that stuff. But for me, like, the kind of art creation process that I enjoy and like doing is so based on finding meaning in every crevice, finding a way to express yourself in every detail. just love doing it.Nico: you are the English teacher that the, the curtains are blue meme is referencing, in fact.Sam: Yes.Nico: The curtains are blue in I Know The End because,Sam: Well, and I know the end they are red, but Nico: yes.Imagine that being the new version of the meme: the curtains in this are red because there's a Phoebe Bridgers album that has a single pixel that is that color.Sam: Yeah, I don't know. It's true, though.Nico: Exactly. it is in fact true. But so would, in some ways, any other interpretation of...Sam: Yeah.Nico: of the red color, right? It's like you picked it because of the association with the album cover. Someone else could be like, Oh, it means this otherthing. And like that interpretation is correct. Sam: Yeah, I mean, I also picked it because of its association with blood, you know, like I, I wanted to kind of evoke that feeling too, so.Shall we do the table of contents? HehNico: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the most interesting thing to talk about, and I want to know when this entered the sort of the design process, is the blacked out Table of Contents entry which corresponds to an almost entirely blacked out, or in this case, redded out,Sam: Yeah, Nico: messily redacted,part of, the book,Sam: Yeah, I think this was always there, I think I started writing a list of locations very early on, and on that list of locations was, like, I work in Google Docs to begin with for most of my stuff, and it was a bullet pointed numbered list, and the last list item was struck through, and it was your mom's house.And I just thought that was a funny little joke. It's like really dark? Another, just like a little detail, I have such a great relationship with my parents. Like really just a better relationship with my parents than anyone I know. And, so much of my art ends up with these like, really bad, fucked up relationships with parents, and I don't know what that's about.But, there's, there's something about, there's a piece of your hometown that is like so traumatic that you can't bring yourself to look at it. There's a piece of yourself, or your childhood, or like, where you came up, there's something from your origin story that you can't bear to face is a lot of what this is about. And even as the climax of this thing is I think in a lot of ways turning to face everything that you left behind.I mean the whole module is about that but I think fact that even when you are doing that, there's one piece of it that you can't bear to look at is really tragic and a mood to me. You know, it really felt right. Nico: it's sort of like, yeah, I'm finally gonna stand my ground and face my fear, or whatever, except for that thing. That thing, that part over there, for whatever reason, because I'm actually just very afraid of it. It really, as always, is sort of like the exceptions to the rule make the rule, or emphasize the rule. You're kind of carving out the negative space around it. And it makes it clearer in so. so Well, Yeah, so like, then the first thing of the game text itself, so to speak, is like the front and back of a postcard. And where's the picture from? It looks kind of old timey in a sort of non specific way.Sam: It's from Wikimedia Commons, I believe. I was looking for pictures of old postcards, and I wanted a small town, and, this is what I found.The postcard image is actually like a hell of a photo bash too. The stamp on it is from a real postcard I received from my cousin. The handwriting was me on just like a piece of paper that I scanned, and then the postcard is another like open source postcard image.Nico: Yeah. I am, once again, sort of showing, showing a lot of my bias here. I am often kind of against a lot of little, like, accessories, or sort of, like, physical things that are often part of crowdfunding, like, stretch goals, you know, like, it's, I don't know. I don't think it's, like, ontologically evil or anything like that, it's just, I understand, it's part of the reality of crowdfunding, and, like, attracting attention, and yada yada yada, I just personally don't love that reality. Which, of course, is easy to criticize when you're not part of a project is trying to do that, but that aside, I think it would actually genuinely be very cool to have, like, this postcard as, like, a physical object like, if the game were to be printed.Sam: You gonna make me like, handwrite every one of the postcards too? Cause that isNico: I did not say that. Oh, is that really? Well, but then, then you have it already, you can just print it off, like, or you make that the, like, I don't know, the hundred dollar stretch goal, you know, they back it at that level and then the postcard just appears inside their mailbox. Like,Sam: That wa that is creepy. I will tell you that,Nico: You say that as though it's happened to you before. You're like, well, let meSam: well, I'm not, I, I revealing nothing. How autobiographical is this? Nico: Yeah. so I guess, yeah, so getting, So this is the introduction page, the background, the introduction, giving the context to what this module, extended bestiary, what have you, what it is. My question here from a sort of meta perspective is like, how much are you trying to sort of give away at the start of this? How do you pitch this to , like to someone you know?Sam: that's a great question. I'm pretty proud of the execution here. I think I do a good job of, like, leaving some juicy hints here as to what might be going on without giving anything away. Like, the fact that I advertise this as maybe closer to a bestiary entry than a module, like, uh, what? Like, like you, you have an idea of what that means, but also like, where's the monster, what is the thing that I'm looking like, that is kind of planted in your mind in a way that I think is intriguing and sets expectations without giving the whole thing away.And, also, this is just me, like, trying to figure out how to describe this thing in real time as I'm writing. It really came from intuition. Nico: yeah. I know that, you know you're on, very much on record talking about how, you know, like, taxonomy is fake and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Sam: As much as I love it.Nico: right, right, exactly, I mean, I feel the same way, but I, I am curious as to like if you were trying to sell someone on the idea of even just playing this game, like, how effective do you think it is of like communicating whatever this is, you know, like, is it effective to say it's kind of this, or it's not this, or maybe it's this, like, Sam: I think this is going to be really good at reaching the kind of person who will love this, and really bad at selling this to like a mass audience, you know? But luckily, I'm not trying to sell this to a mass audience. I'm like trying to make Joe Dissimone proud, you know? Like I'm trying to make like something as weird as fucking possible.and I think there's a kind of person who really appreciates that and this struggle to define what this is using existing terminology, I think is going to really appeal to the people who like this.Nico: yeah, I agree, I think it signposts well hey, you, there, like, look at this thing. Isn't that interesting. And if they're like, If they're like, no, that's confusing and I don't know what to do with it, and they go somewhere else, in some ways, it could be argued that that is like, working as intended, right, likeSam: I kind of find it interesting in the sidebar here to watch me sort of like struggle with how you're supposed to play this game, like what rule system are you supposed to use?I do think with some distance from this, the best way to experience this is as a solo game. Like to just read the thing but pause and journal about your character's experience as you sort of walk through it. I have started playing more solo games since I wrote this in preparation for a Season 3 episode of the show, and I think this would serve that experience really well.I considered even, like, rewriting this to be more of explicitly a solo experience, but I, ultimately was really happy leaving it in its sort of nebulous, provocative, what if, is this, what is this sort of state. Nico: Yeah. I would genuinely be interested to have like, the two of us play the game, like this game, like one running it, one as the player, because I don't necessarily disagree with what you said, might be better suited as a solo game, but I really do think that there is something that can be gained about, like being in a room with, like, one other person, or, you know, being on a call with one other person, or whatever and going through this,Sam: Yeah, yeah, I can feel the intensity of that as you describe it. And it sounds harrowing and... Amazing. I do, I do have this dream of like running a Mork Borg dungeon, like over the course of like three sessions, and then like taking one of the players who survives and being like, I've got another module that I think we should play with the same character. Nico: yeah. Anyways, you go home and you think you're safe, but actually, like, Sam: I do think that this as a response to OSR play is really an interesting way to try to play the game, like to Nico: just sort of experienceSam: Yeah, to try to take the kind of character that you would have coming out of that and the experience you would have coming out of that and then like get tossed into this, like that disorientation I think would serve this really well and would do something that I found I really like to do with the OSR kind of play of like finding ways to bring in more character stuff, to just have people to reflect on their person, rather than on the logistical problem solving.Nico: Mm hmm. Which, of course, in some ways also is like, I don't want to say direct contradiction, but like, moving perpendicular to a lot of the sort of OSR principles, rightSam: But yeah, I mean, fuck em. Nico: exactly, I mean, I'm not, saying that to discourage you from doing it, I'm just saying, like, I just think it's an interesting for those to come into sort of, conflict or, or whatever in, in that specific way.Sam: I mean, that's what the bleeding edge of something is all about, right? It's like, what are our principles? What if we throw them out? What does thatNico: Right, right. What if we smash things together that, like, should sort of repel each other like magnets? Like,Sam: Yeah.Nico: Let's move on to the town?Sam: Yeah. So this is the, like, GM spoiler page.Nico: Right.Sam: I don't know that I have a lot to say about this particular page. It's, it's the town. There are, like, two suggestions in the first chunk of this book that came from you that I think are really valuable to this. Like, the first is that the town is always capitalized throughout. Which I like sort of was doing, but you really emphasized, and I think was a great decision.And, the second is that there aren't any contractions in this book except for possessives. And, that was another suggestion that came from you, to have this sort of stilted, formal, slightly off kind of language of not having contractions, that I think serves it really well and is just really cool.Nico: Yeah, I have to give credit for that, to the Questionable Content webcomic, which is a webcomic that has been running forSam: God, is it still going?Nico: oh, it very much is still going, I, it updates Monday to Friday, and I, am reading, I am seated and reading,Sam: stopped reading that like a decade ago.Nico: It is officially 20 years old. It started in 2003.but so one of the characters in that she initially never uses contractions. It is always, it is, it is never, it's. Do not, not, don't, you know, is not, not, isn't and over time, as the character sort of gets more comfortable and starts to open up about her kind of mysterious past, and they'll deal with a lot of the sort of like, serious emotional turmoil that is present in the character, she like, starts to use contractions.And so, it's a specific device that is very weirdly ingrained in my head at this point, because I remember, like, realizing that when it was called out the first time, and then I will fess up and say I have re read the webcomic from the beginning several times. I have a lot of time on my hands sometimes. And it is always kind of a delight to go back to the beginning and see this character and to really notice that device because you know where she ends up and how much more comfortable she is and so to see that difference in the beginning makes it very effective on a reread in a way that is sort of present in the maybe subconscious the first time on the way through.Thank you. And I feel like it's similar here, not quite the same because I don't know if you would ever necessarily actively realize, like, oh, there are no sort of contractions here.Sam: and the town is never gonna stop being a entity of repression.Nico: Yeah, exactly. And so it's giving this like underlying anxiety kind of like,like, you're just like, Ooh, this is Sam: Yeah. It's like, what is going on? What's wrong with the language here?Nico: Yeah. And you might not even really be able to, articulate it because it's sort of hard to articulate the absence of somethingSam: And like, that's the feeling of the whole module. yeah, It's, it's just, it's a great decision. Nico: Yeah. And then of course, capitalizing town, you know, are you even really a game designer if you're not capitalizing some random words in Sam: yeah. gotta have one at least, come on.Sam: I will say I really enjoy the fact that I give no origin story for the town. I think that's also really powerful, of leaving a hole that people can fill in if they want.The mom repression stuff is kinda like that too, the like, the blacking out sharpie. Of like, that's a hole you could fill in in play if you wanted to, but I, I'm not going to. I'm gonna intentionally leave that hole there.Nico: It also is the kind of thing, right, of like, oh gosh, Nova was saying this in the Dice Exploder Discord recently, where like, part of the reason the OSR can be so sort of rules light and stripped down is because like, it is relying a lot on the sort of cultural script of like, what is a fantasy role playing game, or even just like a fantasy story in general, you know? What your knowledge of an OSR game is.And this, in a similar way, is sort of like, you know what a hometown is. Like, you know, I don't need to tell you what the backstory of this is, because you know what it's like to be from somewhere. Cause it's also worth saying, like, this game does not give any character creation instructions, right? I mean, actually, I guess that's not entirely true, because underneath the postcard, you know, it just says, A decade or more gone since you fled the small backwater town that spawned you.And it's like, yeah, that's basically all the sort of character creation information you need, like,Sam: yeah, yeah, like wait, gonna play yourself and you're gonna be sad about this, like uh, Nico: Right, or, like, or if you're not playing yourself, you are playing a person who's sad about it, like, you know, it's like, it's kind of all you really need, Sam: you have internalized the tone of this thing, like, your character is in ways the negative space of the voice of the text. Nico: Like, a weird relationship with your small hometown, we just don't need to spend very much, time covering that broad background. It's much better spent covering the specific, like, locations and people in this town that also sort of help to convey that, feeling, that information.Sam: Temptations and terrors?Nico: Yes, probably The closest thing to a system that is in here, inasmuch as it's taken roughly verbatim from Trophy Dark Sam: yeah, I do think it is notable that when I wrote this I had not played Trophy Dark, and Trophy Dark is the one where you definitely die,Nico: Right. Right. Sam: My intention was not that you would definitely die in this. I really want escape to be a big possibility at the end and so it's interesting that I went with Trophy Dark as, like, the obvious system.Yeah, I like these lists. This is just a lot of tone setting, basically, right? I don't have a lot to say about the details here. The first terror, a children's toy, damp in a gutter, is a reference to another song that makes me cry. The Rebecca Sugar song for Adventure Time, Everything Stays.But most of the rest of this is just, vibes. Here's some vibes. I don't know, I re read these lists and I was like, yeah, they're fine, great, next page. But I don't know, is there anything that stands out to you here?Nico: I mean, I think the most important thing about these lists, these kinds of things, you could maybe even sort of broaden this to like pick lists in general, is that, they kinda need to do two things, like they need to both give you a good solid list of things to pick from, if you're like, at a loss, or if you just are like, looking through it, and you're like, this is good, I want to use this.Or, the other purpose of using it is to have it sort of identify the space that you're playing in to the point where you can come up with your own thing that like, could just be the next entry on that list, right? For me at least, the whole point of like, buying a game is like, I want something that I like, can't essentially come up with by myself, you know? Because I like to be surprised, I like to be sort of challenged, I like to be inspired, and so I think a really good game is one that you sort of like, read it, and you're like, okay, like, there's great things to use in here that I'm excited to use. I also, after having read this, am coming up with my own ideas. Like, equally long, if not longer, list of things that like, fit into this perfectlySam: Bring the vibes of your small town. Nico: Yeah, exactly, that I could also use. It's like, and so it's like, it's kind of funny that like, for me at least, the mark of a good game is like oh yeah, you both want to use everything that's contained in it, and also you immediately get way more of your own ideas than you could ever use when you're running the game.Sam: Yeah. Next?Nico: Yes. Act 1. Sam: I love this little guy, I love Wes he's just kind of a pathetic little dude, and I feel sad for him.Nico: It's so funny, too, because this particular little guy, like, doesn't look very pathetic to me. Like, he looks like he's kind of doing okay. Sam: I definitely like drew, like all the art in the book I drew, and I did it by just drawing a lot of little heads, and then assigning them to people. Like, there were a couple where they were defining details about how the people looked, that I knew I needed to draw specifically. But in general, I just drew a bunch of heads and then doled them out, and like, this is the one that ended up on Wes. And, I think that the contrast between, like, in my mind, Wes is this skinny, lanky, little kid, you know, he's like early 20s, finally making it on his own, and he has no idea what the hell's going on with the world, and he always looked up to you, and he's finally getting out of town. And then he's, he's like overcompensating with the beard for the fact that he's like balding really early, and like, you know, he's, I don't know, like, I think the contrast is just fun.Nico: I love this whole life that you have for this, this little, this little guy, like, which is, I can't stress this enough, mostly not contained in the text,Sam: Yeah. yeah. I think a good NPC is like that. I think it's really hard to transcribe the characters we get in our heads.Nico: yeah, Sam: I really like the, the pun in the Town Crier, I mean like the Town Crier feels like a horror movie trope, like the old man who's gonna be like, You got don't go up to the cabin! But it's also, like I wrote that down first and then just started describing this Wes guy and then I was like I'm gonna just like make a pun out of this.This is something I did all the time while writing this, was I had, like, a little oracle going, actually, at a certain point, like, in the same way that you would in a solo game with an oracle. Like, if I was stuck for an idea, I would just roll on the oracle table and then, like, fill in a detail that was somehow related to the oracle. Nico: Mhm. Sam: That, that didn't happen here, but the idea of, Oh, I want a little bit more description for this guy, like, what should I do? I, like, pulled the word crier, and then was like, Oh, that's really interesting, like, when would this guy have cried? Like, oh, that's a great question, let's just, like, put that to the player. I'm always, like, a thing in screenwriting that is really hard to do, and that I'm always looking for is, like, really good, pithy character descriptions.Like, a friend of mine loves the one like, this is a woman who always orders fajitas at a Mexican restaurant because she loves the attention that she gets when the fajitas come out.She hates fajitas. And that description just says Nico: That's Sam: much. It's so good, right? And that one's even a little bit long for like a screenplay, but it'd be great for like an RPG thing, right?And something about like Here's a little bit about this guy. You remember when he was crying once, like a baby? What was the deal with that? Like, it's such a, like, defines everything else about him. Like, I, I, I'm really proud that.Nico: Yeah. No, that's, that's how I felt a little bit with I ran Vampire Cruise at Big Bad Con this year. And that game has some of, like, the best random NPC generating tables that I've, like, ever seen and played with.I remember one specifically, it was, like, I was like, rolling to generate a passenger, and I think it was like, the secrets part of the table, or something like that, and what I rolled was like, regrets that she never got to see the dinosaurs, and it's like, what does that mean?Like, like, Sam: She had a traumatic experience at a science museum as a kid, or maybe she's like 10 million years old, like, I don't...Nico: or, yeah, or she's just like a weirdo who like really loves dinosaurs? It's like, it's, Like, it really gives you sort of what you need to just sort of like, spin a world out of that specific detail. Sam: It's weird because I like completely agree with you, and you know, I was tooting my own horn about like this question about Wes sobbing and also like, in every single spread of this thing, I'm taking like two full pages to talk about like one or two NPCs, which is a terrible way to do the thing that we are talking about doing. Like,Nico: That is true, that is, it must be said,Sam: it makes it feel so much more like a short story, or maybe like a solo game, right? It's like, eh, spend two pages, like, getting to know this guy. Nico: who won't come up again, spoiler alert, Sam: Yeah, it feels like the right call for this thing where like, I mean it's like the text is forcing you to sit with the memory of this guy, it's like forcing you to come in and like spend more time than you would like to like back at home with these people.And there's some like location context built into all these descriptions too, and we like learn about the bakery thing here and like old stories and stuff. And like, already it's like, do we need that shit to run this game? Like, absolutely not, like, get, get out of the way, like, but also, I don't know, it feels right?And it's one of the things that makes all this weird and, you know, unrunnable.Nico: Which is of course the goal, we don't want people to run this. Yeah, no, that's something that I've thought about in my own games as well, is, is, and just sort of like, my life, I guess, is sort of like, what makes a place that place, you know, like, what makes a town a town, what makes a city a city, like, is it the people who live there? Is it the places? Like, again, kind of back to the sort of Ship of Theseus metaphor, it's like, if everyone you know leaves, and a lot of the stores turnover, like, is that still your hometown? Like... Does your relationship to it change?And so I, in defense of, of what we're doing here, it makes a lot of sense to spend so much time thinking about the people and the places that are here because that also basically is the game, right?Like, like, this is not a dungeon crawl, right? Like, this is not a hack and slash thing, It's not a dungeon crawl, like, Sam: it's a person crawl. Nico: Yeah, exactly, you're yeah, the point of you coming home is you're trying to find Sidra, the person who sent you this postcard, asking you to come home, and yeah, you're basically doing a point crawl, trying to find this person.And then there are various conditions that need to be in place for you to actually find them = And yeah, so it's like, using more words than a sort of your standard OSR like dungeon crawl or point crawl or whatever, or hex crawl, but like, it's kind of the same way where it's like, yeah, but like, that's the game, that's the adventure, like, Sam: yeah, yeah. Another detail here I'm really proud of is the like, offhand remark about how Wes and Sidra aren't talking for what are probably romantic reasons. Because the implication, there's like a strong implication that you, player, have some sort of romantic history with Sidra, like, whether it was ever consummated or not. And I love the just sort of, like, offhand, Wes and Sidra had a thing that didn't work out, because it both... leaves open your potential romantic relationship with Sidra, but also like complicates it and like darkens it from whatever sort of nostalgic quote unquote pure like memory of it you had.And I love that it just sort of brings a little complexity into what happens when you leave for 15 years. And then like what it feels like when you like, hear, oh yeah, your ex has been like, dating someone for a couple years. What were we talking about? Like just that, like sometimes like a bolt of like, information about like, someone from your past that like, you care a lot about will just hit you and you'll be like, oh, wait, what? And we're just I'm supposed to just like, take that and move on? Like, yeah, yeah, Nico: It's also a very small town, right, where it's a sort of like, oh yeah, passing reference to this because everyone knows this already, right? Like, this is old news as well as, like, in a small town, it's like, there's a small pool of people your age that you're interested in, so, not like you're gonna get with all of them inevitably, but it's like, yeah, there's a pretty high chance that you might.Last thing I did wanna say on this, do you wanna share what Wes's name was in the first draft of this that I received?Sam: What was it? I don't rememberNico: It was Glup Shitto. It was, it was one of the first comments I left! It was one of the first comments I left! I was like, Sam, you've gotta know this can't be the final thing, right?Sam: knew it couldn't be the final name. But there was something really funny to me about like the one person who like doesn't fit into town, like this little fucking Star Wars fanboy like schmuck kid is just Glup Shitto. And he's leaving town cuz like when you got that name, it doesn't fit anymore. You gotta get the fuck out of there.No wonder the town couldn't absorb him. His name was Glup Shitto.Nico: I want to say, like, I might have, like, made my first round of comments because I was, like, yeah, feeling the same way of, like, okay, obviously this is not the finalSam: yeah, yeah, I just didn't change it and you were likebruh Nico: and then, yeah, and then you, like, made changes based on the comments that I left, and I went back to it, and I'm like, it's still Glup Shitto. Like, it simply can't be this! It's not allowed! It's, it's not legal! Like, Sam: there ought to be a law.Nico: yeah.Sam: Alright, let's do Act 2 gosh.Yeah, so I made this little map. I like the little map. This is just my hometown, incidentally. Like, there's so much in this that is just, like, pulling details directly from my hometown. That oracle that I mentioned earlier, like, Northfield, Minnesota was, like, one of the things on the oracle. And you can see that here in like, the riverwalk and this little bridge over it was very Northfield. the Rube, which we're getting to next, these two bars, the kind of cowboy themed bar thing was a thing.Nico: Again, it's a very small town of just like, no sort of reasonable business person would have these specific Sam: yeah, but they, they exist here for some reason Nico: it almost feels like the kind of thing where it's like, like they can exist in a really small town, because it's sort of like, well they're the only things here, and they can exist in like New York City Sam: yeah. Nico: everything's in New York city, and like every kind of place is there, but like anywhere in between, people would just be like, I don't understand, and then it goes out of business,Sam: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, doctors always also a big portion of my childhood and my past always coming up in my stuff just because I spent so much time in hospitals as a kid. So the, inclusion of a doctor here is also very much something coming out of my hometown.I like the little mechanic here of, like, rolling and you, like, add one every, every time. I think that's a nice sort of way to handle trying to find Sidra. Nico: as like a classic Nico mechanic 'cause I simply haven't made and published that many things. But in my mind, my narcissistic fantasy, it is a classic me mechanic.Sam: I believe that came from you.Nico: I fucking love a table that like evolves over time.And it's not like I invented it, but like, I think my more standard thing is sort of like you have a table of like 12 things, and then you change which die you roll on it, you know, it's like, oh you can do like a d4 through d12 or whatever and that's like, I really like the ability to sort of go back to a table and, like, use it multiple times as opposed to, like, Okay, we have one table for this, we have a different table for that, you know.Sam: Additional persons. I really like this format for sort of generic NPCs, like, I'm not gonna tell you anything about this person, but I am gonna tell you what you think about them and your relationship to them.I think it's a really cool way of doing... Oh, do you just need to, like, bring someone in? You, like, met someone on the street or whatever? In a lot of other settings, you would just have, like, a random person, and it would be, like, the Vampire Cruise thing. If you give them an interesting detail in here, it'd be a cool thing.But I think, especially in, like, a small town format, the, like, here's your relationship to this person, because everyone knows everyone, and, every character that comes in, like, is gonna have to inspire some kind of feeling and past in you. I think this works really cool, reallyNico: It also feels very sort of true to life in terms of, at least, how I often GM things. Someone will be like, hey, can I, like, ask just, like, the next person I see on the street what they know about this thing? And I'm like, I mean, I fuckin I guess, like, it'll shock you to learn I don't have a name for that person, but, you know, I just have to, like, come up with, like, here's a weird voice, and like, a random thing they know, and like here's a name, Sam: This is a great way to turn that experience back on the player.Nico: exactly, yeah, there's this random person, you're like, alright, this is someone who owes you an apology, why is that?Like, Sam: yeah, Nico: I also wanna say that I feel like this was actually a relatively late addition to theSam: Yeah, it was. I always intended to write these, but it was like the last thing that I wrote.Nico: Yeah.Sam: Yeah.Nico: There was definitely some time when I sort of came back and looked at it, and all of a sudden there was this relatively large additional persons section in here, and I was like, huh, interesting.Sam: Yeah. I'm happy with how it came out. I think these are my best little guys. Nico: Oh yeah, Sam: I really like the unfinishedness of these little guys that you can project a little bit of yourself onto them while there's still some, like, major details there. This someone you seek vengeance upon looks a lot like a penis, and I don't know how I feel about that one, butNico: I was gonna say, I find that one fascinating as the ide

Tom welcomes to the show a successful student of his, Sam Glavin, who shares what inspired him to venture out into entrepreneurial real estate, what drew him to Tom's program, and how he's dealt with massive rejection. Today, Sam joins the show to talk through his marketing strategies, recent rehab deals he's completed, what ‘wholetailing' entails, and his future investment goals.Key Takeaways00:59 – Tom introduces today's guest, Sam Glavin, who joins the show to discuss what inspired him to pursue entrepreneurial real estate 07:21 – Why Sam chose Tom's program and Sam's biggest deal to date 13:23 – A numbers game 16:54 – Dealing with rejection (42 times to be exact) 20:38 – The tedium of marketing and making things conversational 27:32 – Sam's big rehab deal 30:54 – ‘Wholetailing' explained 35:32 – Hiring employees & building a business 39:24 – Advice Sam would give to anyone hesitating to get involved in real estate investment 43:29 – Tom thanks Sam for joining the show and sharing his storyTweetable Quotes“I say the first deal is around the corner, because it is. I worked four months to get my first deal and then it happened. And then literally two days before I sold that one, I got my next one under contract.” (10:46) (Sam)“It feels almost too good to be true to even keep it up. It's one thing to get a deal every couple of months, but to actually keep it up and start turning it into a business, I do see that mental shift you're talking about. It's hard to see.” (12:46) (Sam)“It is a low response rate for most types of marketing. I think the biggest thing is testing stuff and testing everything.” (21:29) (Sam)“I used to be very, very shy. You would have never, ever had me doing any networking events. It would be unheard of for me to do anything like that. Once I realized that you're just talking to people who have a house issue, it's just made it more streamlined. I'm not asking question after question. I'm just having a conversation with them, understanding what they need and what they want with their house.” (23:15) (Sam)“You are paid in proportion to the problems that you solve. Solving a housing issue that is some people's biggest purchase is incredible. We get paid very well for solving that issue.” (24:58) (Sam)“I will never stop having leads come in. That's the death of your business really.” (30:04) (Sam)“I want to turn this into an actual business and get into long term, tax benefit type real estate.” (38:05) (Sam)Guest ResourcesTom's LinkedInTom's Training Website Tom's TOTAL TRACTION program DealMachine Special Bonus OfferThis podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis: Chartable - https://chartable.com/privacy

Things Discussed: Brian's serve game. Michigan seems like they can hit another gear. Outside zone: Michigan thinks they can get away playing 2 DTs + 1 LB vs 4 blockers and an RB because the DTs are that good. Maybe they're right and #75 for Minnesota is just good at run blocking. Sam: You can't play your NT at 2i like that. But Michigan is going to play those games inside because they are going to have their edges outside. JJ: So cool. Loved the re-Mike on the Loveland TD. Sam: he got Loveland a touchdown because he almost got him killed earlier. Mason OMG Graham. We do the Chris Farley thing for awhile. Pick Six: Johnson and Moore sold Cover 3—Sam notes they were in Quarters coverage. The one TD: Sam agrees it was –1 for Sainristil and –1 for Sabb. But note the only catch when Minnesota was on offense after that was Sabb's. Hoosiers: Have some players on defense, have a terrible quarterback but we like scatback Jaylin Lucas and go-get-it WR Cam Camper. Hockey talk: banged up on defense and it's showing in 5-on-4 (and 6-on-5). Goalies are mid. Why can't we fix these schedules so the football games don't undermine fandom. Playing Ohio State at home during the MSU football game is ridiculous. Move it to 4:30. 

 Welcome to episode 59. Trust can be the biggest factor holding us back from doing the things we really want to do. Do you trust your own judgements on what's ‘allowed'? Who makes those rules? Where do they come from? In today's episode I'm encouraging you to give yourself permission to be who you really are and explore all the opportunities life has to offer once you give yourself full, unrestricted permission. What would you do differently? In this episode: All actions are choices. A fresh perspective on the relationship between risks, rewards and your values. How overcoming limiting mindsets can help you break free from old restrictions and embrace your power to live a fulfilling life. Owning your decisions – why you need to trust yourself, ignore judgements and live life on your own terms The importance of modelling confidence in our choices to our children. Today's episode was brought to you in association with Made Simple by Sam You can follow her here: Instagram @made_simple_by_sam LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/sambrownmadesimplebysam/   Remember to hit SUBSCRIBE or FOLLOW so you don't miss any new episodes; subscribe to my mailing list and connect with me over on Instagram @clearyourday If you would like to know more about how coaching works or to work with me 1-2-1, please visit https://www.clear-day.co.uk/coaching/ For more tips and to be part of the community, sign up to The No Bullshit Guide To A Happier Life Facebook Group now!

We Assess the Current State of the Six Largest US Airlines...on today's Milenomics² (No Annual Fee Edition) Podcast 0:24 Premise of the Discussion Everyone's situation is different. Different hometown airport(s), different common destinations, different enthusiasm for taking on points & miles complexity to defray airfare costs, etc. That being the case, there's are no one-size-fits-all solutions in this game That said, there are tendencies and trends that are worth being familiar with as it's useful in informing moves you might make to prepare for future travel In this spirit, we think it's a good time to take a look at the biggest domestic carriers. We'll analyze them both for using their miles to fly their metal, the overall state of their frequent flyer program, their co-branded credit cards, their bank point relationships, how difficult they are to earn, and their overall position in the market. 04:21 American Could be the last remaining legacy carrier where close-in you can still find saver level awards for expensive cash fares, will have to see how this plays out with a supposed move to “fully dynamic” British Airways Avios (and other OneWorld partner awards) can still be a good play, but AA doesn't seem to release much partner award space A good program to generate miles in, but if their utility becomes mostly for partner awards it significantly diminishes the value proposition for me With no bank point transfer partners, it can be tough to generate AA miles. Bilt transfers are possible. Unique in that they partner with both Citi and Barclays, though churnability has become difficult Bottom Line: Still a lot of great partners, favorable partner award charts, and flexible change and cancellation terms. The value proposition with AA increasingly hinges on partner awards. 14:15 Delta Booking with Delta miles provides decent everyday value with flexible cancellation terms. Not a lot of clever angles here when cash prices are high. Issues with cancellations not actually happening. Need to follow up. Wide variety of co-branded Amex cards with probably the best churnability of any carrier due to targeted offers and lenient approval standards 15% discount on award travel if holding one of their Amex Delta cards. 1:1 transfer partner from Membership Rewards which have been one of the easier bank point currencies to generate the past 5 years Booking with 35% Amex Business Platinum rebate even more valuable than transferring (but beware Amex Travel hassles and harder to cancel) SkyClub membership for everyone who carries an Amex Platinum card is a nice perk when flying, though because of this they can be crowded Bottom Line: Weak SkyTeam alliance and expensive international awards make Delta a straightforward value proposition for domestic flights. 23:54 Southwest A wide variety of fun (if complicated) instruments for booking flights. Fun? I think that when things are going well they can be more 'fun' than other airlines to fly with. “Too good to be true” Companion Pass is perhaps the longest running and evidently effective campaigns in the space. In general, connections with Southwest stress their system and make for longer travel than necessary with other carriers Not low cost. Low fee. Antique seating policy makes for trouble for families with children older than their cutoff of 6. 1:1 transfer partner from Chase Ultimate Rewards Wide variety of Chase co-branded cards (but 5/24 constraints can be limiting) Bottom Line: A carrier worth paying attention to if your hometown airport is dominated by Southwest, a carrier rarely flown otherwise 30:15 United Not a lot of angles for booking flights on United metal with United miles. Award chart for domestic flights seems truly dynamic - tied fully to cash price. Don't see a lot saver level space release here either, so angles like booking with Star Alliance carriers are rare Travel Bank has favorable terms, making it one to consider for Amex incidentals. Flexible booking and cancellations with most fares. Bonus points for clearly labeling refundable fares vs. cancellable fares. Bonus points removed for not refunding without tons of interaction. 1:1 transfer partner from Chase Ultimate Rewards Typical assortment of co-branded Chase cards, but 5/24 can be limiting Bottom Line: Star Alliance tie-in (mostly for awards to Europe) keep me interested in earning United miles, but the partner chart has become a bit pricey 39:01 Alaska Award chart domestically for flying Alaska metal with Alaska miles rarely provides outsized value. Welcome bonuses of co-branded credit cards issued by Bank of America (personal and business) have become increasingly generous Still some good values to be had with premium partner awards No 1:1 bank point transfer partner “World Famous” companion pass requires spending more to get more value out of it, and not even half off at the end of the day Bottom Line: Unless you live near an airport well-served by Alaska, it's an airline that's still mostly one to accrue miles rather than fly. But with partner awards no longer offering differentiated value it could be an airline worth mostly ignoring. 47:18 JetBlue Usually just book with bank points or travel bank Has been a good candidate for use of Amex incidentals, but tone deaf tightened expiry of travel bank is industry worst. Partners come and go (Emirates/Etihad for example) and redemptions are so quirky it's as if they don't even know they exist Some opportunities with alliance with AA Nice that they allow family pooling of points, but they haven't yet figured out how to configure a valuable loyalty program Mint is their single trick. Partner awards on Hawiian (need T, Z, or L fare bucket space) Co-branded cards issued by Barclays Quirky 250:200 Amex Membership Rewards transfer ratio Bottom Line: An airline to ignore if they don't serve your airport. An airline that can't be ignored if you live in Boston or near JFK 54:13 Bottom Line Discuss: How can we be rational? Are airline miles dead? Have airlines gone too far in diminishing their outsized value to the point where bank points are better? What's your overall takeaway for yourself, and for family and friends looking for advice? Robert: “Thanks for joining us for this week. For a more in-depth discussion about points miles visit us at patreon.com/milenomics. There you'll get a special link to listen to additional content, right in your mobile podcast app or on your computer, where we speak more freely about topics like these. Sam: You can reach us on Twitter @Milenomics and @RobertDwyer - we'd love to hear from you. Until then we'll see you on the site...” Special Thanks to Morgan Housel for his excellent book and new Podcast.

“A lot of people have a movie-like version of the real world,” says Sam, who returns for another episode of Raw and Uncut, “and it doesn't work like that.” People are hungry for performative politics because President Biden's scandal-free tenure doesn't fill the void of entertainment left by Trump. People see the Chinese balloon flying over the Midwest and expect it to be shot down as if life were an action movie, not thinking of the implications of that actually happening. Taking the balloon down did cost nearly a million dollars in military spending, which satisfies the same people who would then turn around and complain that their taxes are being spent on projects like public housing, Covid relief extension and tunnels that would help alleviate traffic.  They want to see empty gestures that even the politicians providing them don't actually believe. They assume President Biden has done nothing about the train derailment in Ohio because Fox News says so. This is why Fox News invites guests on whom they know are lying because the network knows what its viewers want to hear, and knows they come to Fox to get their fix. Politicians will also create problems where they don't exist, such as children being forced to confront trans rights issues, people being forced to use the term ‘LatinX,' and meanwhile real, worthwhile problems like infrastructure, healthcare and tax codes and the squeezing of the middle class are ignored.  The two discuss what the example of George Santos says about the hypocrisy of the Republican Party. Sam gives his thoughts on Nikki Haley and why he is done underestimating Trump. Michael closes the episode discussing the influence of the 1949 Fairness Doctrine–and its absence–on the way that politics are presented in the media today. Quotes “The train derailment in Ohio, the Right makes it seem like the federal government is absent. Meanwhile, the federal government, the President in particular, said to the governor, ‘Whatever you need, I'm going to give it to you. And Governor Mike DeWine, who isn't a raging Maga Republican basically said, ‘If we need you, we'll let you know. But if you watch Fox News, you'll hear, ‘Look, this train was derailed by the federal government…This shouldn't be a surprise.” (17:13-18:01 | Sam) “You have to understand that one of the flaws of politicians is they become addicted to power and to staying in power. One of the ways you stay in power is to get people to vote for you. And so their way of getting people to vote for them is to consistently push and amplify these sorts of issues.” (26:26-26:52 | Sam)  “A lot of people have a very movie version of the real world. And it doesn't work like that. You don't send Bruce Willis up there with some fighter jets to take this thing down and there's no collateral damage.” (38:46-39:00 | Sam) “If we were to peel behind the curtain, we'd see not only the country's progression, but that we as Americans have more in common than what the false narratives depicted by Right Wing media…Each of us must filter what we take in as news and keep an open mind. It's okay to formulate an opinion while respecting those that do not share similar beliefs.” (1:02:20-1:02:32 | Michael)  Links cuckoo4politics.com https://www.instagram.com/cuckoo_4_politics/ https://www.facebook.com/Cuckoo-4-Politics-104093938102793 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

About SamSam Nicholls: Veeam's Director of Public Cloud Product Marketing, with 10+ years of sales, alliance management and product marketing experience in IT. Sam has evolved from his on-premises storage days and is now laser-focused on spreading the word about cloud-native backup and recovery, packing in thousands of viewers on his webinars, blogs and webpages.Links Referenced: Veeam AWS Backup: https://www.veeam.com/aws-backup.html Veeam: https://veeam.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Chronosphere. Tired of observability costs going up every year without getting additional value? Or being locked in to a vendor due to proprietary data collection, querying and visualization? Modern day, containerized environments require a new kind of observability technology that accounts for the massive increase in scale and attendant cost of data. With Chronosphere, choose where and how your data is routed and stored, query it easily, and get better context and control. 100% open source compatibility means that no matter what your setup is, they can help. Learn how Chronosphere provides complete and real-time insight into ECS, EKS, and your microservices, whereever they may be at snark.cloud/chronosphere That's snark.cloud/chronosphere Corey: This episode is brought to us by our friends at Pinecone. They believe that all anyone really wants is to be understood, and that includes your users. AI models combined with the Pinecone vector database let your applications understand and act on what your users want… without making them spell it out. Make your search application find results by meaning instead of just keywords, your personalization system make picks based on relevance instead of just tags, and your security applications match threats by resemblance instead of just regular expressions. Pinecone provides the cloud infrastructure that makes this easy, fast, and scalable. Thanks to my friends at Pinecone for sponsoring this episode. Visit Pinecone.io to understand more.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode is brought to us by and sponsored by our friends over at Veeam. And as a part of that, they have thrown one of their own to the proverbial lion. My guest today is Sam Nicholls, Director of Public Cloud over at Veeam. Sam, thank you for joining me.Sam: Hey. Thanks for having me, Corey, and thanks for everyone joining and listening in. I do know that I've been thrown into the lion's den, and I am [laugh] hopefully well-prepared to answer anything and everything that Corey throws my way. Fingers crossed. [laugh].Corey: I don't think there's too much room for criticizing here, to be direct. I mean, Veeam is a company that is solidly and thoroughly built around a problem that absolutely no one cares about. I mean, what could possibly be wrong with that? You do backups; which no one ever cares about. Restores, on the other hand, people care very much about restores. And that's when they learn, “Oh, I really should have cared about backups at any point prior to 20 minutes ago.”Sam: Yeah, it's a great point. It's kind of like taxes and insurance. It's almost like, you know, something that you have to do that you don't necessarily want to do, but when push comes to shove, and something's burning down, a file has been deleted, someone's made their way into your account and, you know, running a right mess within there, that's when you really, kind of, care about what you mentioned, which is the recovery piece, the speed of recovery, the reliability of recovery.Corey: It's been over a decade, and I'm still sore about losing my email archives from 2006 to 2009. There's no way to get it back. I ran my own mail server; it was an iPhone setting that said, “Oh, yeah, automatically delete everything in your trash folder—or archive folder—after 30 days.” It was just a weird default setting back in that era. I didn't realize it was doing that. Yeah, painful stuff.And we learned the hard way in some of these cases. Not that I really have much need for email from that era of my life, but every once in a while it still bugs me. Which gets speaks to the point that the people who are the most fanatical about backing things up are the people who have been burned by not having a backup. And I'm fortunate in that it wasn't someone else's data with which I had been entrusted that really cemented that lesson for me.Sam: Yeah, yeah. It's a good point. I could remember a few years ago, my wife migrated a very aging, polycarbonate white Mac to one of the shiny new aluminum ones and thought everything was good—Corey: As the white polycarbonate Mac becomes yellow, then yeah, all right, you know, it's time to replace it. Yeah. So yeah, so she wiped the drive, and what happened?Sam: That was her moment where she learned the value and importance of backup unless she backs everything up now. I fortunately have never gone through it. But I'm employed by a backup vendor and that's why I care about it. But it's incredibly important to have, of course.Corey: Oh, yes. My spouse has many wonderful qualities, but one that drives me slightly nuts is she's something of a digital packrat where her hard drives on her laptop will periodically fill up. And I used to take the approach of oh, you can be more efficient and do the rest. And I realized no, telling other people they're doing it wrong is generally poor practice, whereas just buying bigger drives is way easier. Let's go ahead and do that. It's small price to pay for domestic tranquility.And there's a lesson in that. We can map that almost perfectly to the corporate world where you folks tend to operate in. You're not doing home backup, last time I checked; you are doing public cloud backup. Actually, I should ask that. Where do you folks start and where do you stop?Sam: Yeah, no, it's a great question. You know, we started over 15 years ago when virtualization, specifically VMware vSphere, was really the up-and-coming thing, and, you know, a lot of folks were there trying to utilize agents to protect their vSphere instances, just like they were doing with physical Windows and Linux boxes. And, you know, it kind of got the job done, but was it the best way of doing it? No. And that's kind of why Veeam was pioneered; it was this agentless backup, image-based backup for vSphere.And, of course, you know, in the last 15 years, we've seen lots of transitions, of course, we're here at Screaming in the Cloud, with you, Corey, so AWS, as well as a number of other public cloud vendors we can help protect as well, as a number of SaaS applications like Microsoft 365, metadata and data within Salesforce. So, Veeam's really kind of come a long way from just virtual machines to really taking a global look at the entirety of modern environments, and how can we best protect each and every single one of those without trying to take a square peg and fit it in a round hole?Corey: It's a good question and a common one. We wind up with an awful lot of folks who are confused by the proliferation of data. And I'm one of them, let's be very clear here. It comes down to a problem where backups are a multifaceted, deep problem, and I don't think that people necessarily think of it that way. But I take a look at all of the different, even AWS services that I use for my various nonsense, and which ones can be used to store data?Well, all of them. Some of them, you have to hold it in a particularly wrong sort of way, but they all store data. And in various contexts, a lot of that data becomes very important. So, what service am I using, in which account am I using, and in what region am I using it, and you wind up with data sprawl, where it's a tremendous amount of data that you can generally only track down by looking at your bills at the end of the month. Okay, so what am I being charged, and for what service?That seems like a good place to start, but where is it getting backed up? How do you think about that? So, some people, I think, tend to ignore the problem, which we're seeing less and less, but other folks tend to go to the opposite extreme and we're just going to backup absolutely everything, and we're going to keep that data for the rest of our natural lives. It feels to me that there's probably an answer that is more appropriate somewhere nestled between those two extremes.Sam: Yeah, snapshot sprawl is a real thing, and it gets very, very expensive very, very quickly. You know, your snapshots of EC2 instances are stored on those attached EBS volumes. Five cents per gig per month doesn't sound like a lot, but when you're dealing with thousands of snapshots for thousands machines, it gets out of hand very, very quickly. And you don't know when to delete them. Like you say, folks are just retaining them forever and dealing with this unfortunate bill shock.So, you know, where to start is automating the lifecycle of a snapshot, right, from its creation—how often do we want to be creating them—from the retention—how long do we want to keep these for—and where do we want to keep them because there are other storage services outside of just EBS volumes. And then, of course, the ultimate: deletion. And that's important even from a compliance perspective as well, right? You've got to retain data for a specific number of years, I think healthcare is like seven years, but then you've—Corey: And then not a day more.Sam: Yeah, and then not a day more because that puts you out of compliance, too. So, policy-based automation is your friend and we see a number of folks building these policies out: gold, silver, bronze tiers based on criticality of data compliance and really just kind of letting the machine do the rest. And you can focus on not babysitting backup.Corey: What was it that led to the rise of snapshots? Because back in my very early days, there was no such thing. We wound up using a bunch of servers stuffed in a rack somewhere and virtualization was not really in play, so we had file systems on physical disks. And how do you back that up? Well, you have an agent of some sort that basically looks at all the files and according to some ruleset that it has, it copies them off somewhere else.It was slow, it was fraught, it had a whole bunch of logic that was pushed out to the very edge, and forget about restoring that data in a timely fashion or even validating a lot of those backups worked other than via checksum. And God help you if you had data that was constantly in the state of flux, where anything changing during the backup run would leave your backups in an inconsistent state. That on some level seems to have largely been solved by snapshots. But what's your take on it? You're a lot closer to this part of the world than I am.Sam: Yeah, snapshots, I think folks have turned to snapshots for the speed, the lack of impact that they have on production performance, and again, just the ease of accessibility. We have access to all different kinds of snapshots for EC2, RDS, EFS throughout the entirety of our AWS environment. So, I think the snapshots are kind of like the default go-to for folks. They can help deliver those very, very quick RPOs, especially in, for example, databases, like you were saying, that change very, very quickly and we all of a sudden are stranded with a crash-consistent backup or snapshot versus an application-consistent snapshot. And then they're also very, very quick to recover from.So, snapshots are very, very appealing, but they absolutely do have their limitations. And I think, you know, it's not a one or the other; it's that they've got to go hand-in-hand with something else. And typically, that is an image-based backup that is stored in a separate location to the snapshot because that snapshot is not independent of the disk that it is protecting.Corey: One of the challenges with snapshots is most of them are created in a copy-on-write sense. It takes basically an instant frozen point in time back—once upon a time when we ran MySQL databases on top of the NetApp Filer—which works surprisingly well—we would have a script that would automatically quiesce the database so that it would be in a consistent state, snapshot the file and then un-quiesce it, which took less than a second, start to finish. And that was awesome, but then you had this snapshot type of thing. It wasn't super portable, it needed to reference a previous snapshot in some cases, and AWS takes the same approach where the first snapshot it captures every block, then subsequent snapshots wind up only taking up as much size as there have been changes since the first snapshots. So, large quantities of data that generally don't get access to a whole lot have remarkably small, subsequent snapshot sizes.But that's not at all obvious from the outside, and looking at these things. They're not the most portable thing in the world. But it's definitely the direction that the industry has trended in. So, rather than having a cron job fire off an AWS API call to take snapshots of my volumes as a sort of the baseline approach that we all started with, what is the value proposition that you folks bring? And please don't say it's, “Well, cron jobs are hard and we have a friendlier interface for that.”Sam: [laugh]. I think it's really starting to look at the proliferation of those snapshots, understanding what they're good at, and what they are good for within your environment—as previously mentioned, low RPOs, low RTOs, how quickly can I take a backup, how frequently can I take a backup, and more importantly, how quickly can I restore—but then looking at their limitations. So, I mentioned that they were not independent of that disk, so that certainly does introduce a single point of failure as well as being not so secure. We've kind of touched on the cost component of that as well. So, what Veeam can come in and do is then take an image-based backup of those snapshots, right—so you've got your initial snapshot and then your incremental ones—we'll take the backup from that snapshot, and then we'll start to store that elsewhere.And that is likely going to be in a different account. We can look at the Well-Architected Framework, AWS deeming accounts as a security boundary, so having that cross-account function is critically important so you don't have that single point of failure. Locking down with IAM roles is also incredibly important so we haven't just got a big wide open door between the two. But that data is then stored in a separate account—potentially in a separate region, maybe in the same region—Amazon S3 storage. And S3 has the wonderful benefit of being still relatively performant, so we can have quick recoveries, but it is much, much cheaper. You're dealing with 2.3 cents per gig per month, instead of—Corey: To start, and it goes down from there with sizeable volumes.Sam: Absolutely, yeah. You can go down to S3 Glacier, where you're looking at, I forget how many points and zeros and nines it is, but it's fractions of a cent per gig per month, but it's going to take you a couple of days to recover that da—Corey: Even infrequent access cuts that in half.Sam: Oh yeah.Corey: And let's be clear, these are snapshot backups; you probably should not be accessing them on a consistent, sustained basis.Sam: Well, exactly. And this is where it's kind of almost like having your cake and eating it as well. Compliance or regulatory mandates or corporate mandates are saying you must keep this data for this length of time. Keeping that—you know, let's just say it's three years' worth of snapshots in an EBS volume is going to be incredibly expensive. What's the likelihood of you needing to recover something from two years—actually, even two months ago? It's very, very small.So, the performance part of S3 is, you don't need to take it as much into consideration. Can you recover? Yes. Is it going to take a little bit longer? Absolutely. But it's going to help you meet those retention requirements while keeping your backup bill low, avoiding that bill shock, right, spending tens and tens of thousands every single month on snapshots. This is what I mean by kind of having your cake and eating it.Corey: I somewhat recently have had a client where EBS snapshots are one of the driving costs behind their bill. It is one of their largest single line items. And I want to be very clear here because if one of those people who listen to this and thinking, “Well, hang on. Wait, they're telling stories about us, even though they're not naming us by name?” Yeah, there were three of you in the last quarter.So, at that point, it becomes clear it is not about something that one individual company has done and more about an overall driving trend. I am personalizing it a little bit by referring to as one company when there were three of you. This is a narrative device, not me breaking confidentiality. Disclaimer over. Now, when you talk to people about, “So, tell me why you've got 80 times more snapshots than you do EBS volumes?” The answer is as, “Well, we wanted to back things up and we needed to get hourly backups to a point, then daily backups, then monthly, and so on and so forth. And when this was set up, there wasn't a great way to do this natively and we don't always necessarily know what we need versus what we don't. And the cost of us backing this up, well, you can see it on the bill. The cost of us deleting too much and needing it as soon as we do? Well, that cost is almost incalculable. So, this is the safe way to go.” And they're not wrong in anything that they're saying. But the world has definitely evolved since then.Sam: Yeah, yeah. It's a really great point. Again, it just folds back into my whole having your cake and eating it conversation. Yes, you need to retain data; it gives you that kind of nice, warm, cozy feeling, it's a nice blanket on a winter's day that that data, irrespective of what happens, you're going to have something to recover from. But the question is does that need to be living on an EBS volume as a snapshot? Why can't it be living on much, much more cost-effective storage that's going to give you the warm and fuzzies, but is going to make your finance team much, much happier [laugh].Corey: One of the inherent challenges I think people have is that snapshots by themselves are almost worthless, in that I have an EBS snapshot, it is sitting there now, it's costing me an undetermined amount of money because it's not exactly clear on a per snapshot basis exactly how large it is, and okay, great. Well, I'm looking for a file that was not modified since X date, as it was on this time. Well, great, you're going to have to take that snapshot, restore it to a volume and then go exploring by hand. Oh, it was the wrong one. Great. Try it again, with a different one.And after, like, the fifth or six in a row, you start doing a binary search approach on this thing. But it's expensive, it's time-consuming, it takes forever, and it's not a fun user experience at all. Part of the problem is it seems that historically, backup systems have no context or no contextual awareness whatsoever around what is actually contained within that backup.Sam: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you kind of highlighted two of the steps. It's more like a ten-step process to do, you know, granular file or folder-level recovery from a snapshot, right? You've got to, like you say, you've got to determine the point in time when that, you know, you knew the last time that it was around, then you're going to have to determine the volume size, the region, the OS, you're going to have to create an EBS volume of the same size, region, from that snapshot, create the EC2 instance with the same OS, connect the two together, boot the EC2 instance, mount the volume search for the files to restore, download them manually, at which point you have your file back. It's not back in the machine where it was, it's now been downloaded locally to whatever machine you're accessing that from. And then you got to tear it all down.And that is again, like you say, predicated on the fact that you knew exactly that that was the right time. It might not be and then you have to start from scratch from a different point in time. So, backup tooling from backup vendors that have been doing this for many, many years, knew about this problem long, long ago, and really seek to not only automate the entirety of that process but make the whole e-discovery, the search, the location of those files, much, much easier. I don't necessarily want to do a vendor pitch, but I will say with Veeam, we have explorer-like functionality, whereby it's just a simple web browser. Once that machine is all spun up again, automatic process, you can just search for your individual file, folder, locate it, you can download it locally, you can inject it back into the instance where it was through Amazon Kinesis or AWS Kinesis—I forget the right terminology for it; some of its AWS, some of its Amazon.But by-the-by, the whole recovery process, especially from a file or folder level, is much more pain-free, but also much faster. And that's ultimately what people care about how reliable is my backup? How quickly can I get stuff online? Because the time that I'm down is costing me an indescribable amount of time or money.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or if you are looking to go beyond just caching and unlocking your data's full potential, these folks have you covered. Redis Enterprise is the go-to managed Redis service that allows you to reimagine how your geo-distributed applications process, deliver, and store data. To learn more from the experts in Redis how to be real-time, right now, from anywhere, visit redis.com/duckbill. That's R - E - D - I - S dot com slash duckbill.Corey: Right, the idea of RPO versus RTO: recovery point objective and recovery time objective. With an RPO, it's great, disaster strikes right now, how long is acceptable to it have been since the last time we backed up data to a restorable point? Sometimes it's measured in minutes, sometimes it's measured in fractions of a second. It really depends on what we're talking about. Payments databases, that needs to be—the RPO is basically an asymptotically approaches zero.The RTO is okay, how long is acceptable before we have that data restored and are back up and running? And that is almost always a longer time, but not always. And there's a different series of trade-offs that go into that. But both of those also presuppose that you've already dealt with the existential question of is it possible for us to recover this data. And that's where I know that you are obviously—you have a position on this that is informed by where you work, but I don't, and I will call this out as what I see in the industry: AWS backup is compelling to me except for one fatal flaw that it has, and that is it starts and stops with AWS.I am not a proponent of multi-cloud. Lord knows I've gotten flack for that position a bunch of times, but the one area where it makes absolute sense to me is backups. Have your data in a rehydrate-the-business level state backed up somewhere that is not your primary cloud provider because you're otherwise single point of failure-ing through a company, through the payment instrument you have on file with that company, in the blast radius of someone who can successfully impersonate you to that vendor. There has to be a gap of some sort for the truly business-critical data. Yes, egress to other providers is expensive, but you know what also is expensive? Irrevocably losing the data that powers your business. Is it likely? No, but I would much rather do it than have to justify why I'm not doing it.Sam: Yeah. Wasn't likely that I was going to win that 2 billion or 2.1 billion on the Powerball, but [laugh] I still play [laugh]. But I understand your standpoint on multi-cloud and I read your newsletters and understand where you're coming from, but I think the reality is that we do live in at least a hybrid cloud world, if not multi-cloud. The number of organizations that are sole-sourced on a single cloud and nothing else is relatively small, single-digit percentage. It's around 80-some percent that are hybrid, and the remainder of them are your favorite: multi-cloud.But again, having something that is one hundred percent sole-source on a single platform or a single vendor does expose you to a certain degree of risk. So, having the ability to do cross-platform backups, recoveries, migrations, for whatever reason, right, because it might not just be a disaster like you'd mentioned, it might also just be… I don't know, the company has been taken over and all of a sudden, the preference is now towards another cloud provider and I want you to refactor and re-architect everything for this other cloud provider. If all that data is locked into one platform, that's going to make your job very, very difficult. So, we mentioned at the beginning of the call, Veeam is capable of protecting a vast number of heterogeneous workloads on different platforms, in different environments, on-premises, in multiple different clouds, but the other key piece is that we always use the same backup file format. And why that's key is because it enables portability.If I have backups of EC2 instances that are stored in S3, I could copy those onto on-premises disk, I could copy those into Azure, I could do the same with my Azure VMs and store those on S3, or again, on-premises disk, and any other endless combination that goes with that. And it's really kind of centered around, like control and ownership of your data. We are not prescriptive by any means. Like, you do what is best for your organization. We just want to provide you with the toolset that enables you to do that without steering you one direction or the other with fee structures, disparate feature sets, whatever it might be.Corey: One of the big challenges that I keep seeing across the board is just a lack of awareness of what the data that matters is, where you see people backing up endless fleets of web server instances that are auto-scaled into existence and then removed, but you can create those things at will; why do you care about the actual data that's on these things? It winds up almost at the library management problem, on some level. And in that scenario, snapshots are almost certainly the wrong answer. One thing that I saw previously that really changed my way of thinking about this was back many years ago when I was working at a startup that had just started using GitHub and they were paying for a third-party service that wound up backing up Git repos. Today, that makes a lot more sense because you have a bunch of other stuff on GitHub that goes well beyond the stuff contained within Git, but at the time, it was silly. It was, why do that? Every Git clone is a full copy of the entire repository history. Just grab it off some developer's laptop somewhere.It's like, “Really? You want to bet the company, slash your job, slash everyone else's job on that being feasible and doable or do you want to spend the 39 bucks a month or whatever it was to wind up getting that out the door now so we don't have to think about it, and they validate that it works?” And that was really a shift in my way of thinking because, yeah, backing up things can get expensive when you have multiple copies of the data living in different places, but what's really expensive is not having a company anymore.Sam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We can tie it back to my insurance dynamic earlier where, you know, it's something that you know that you have to have, but you don't necessarily want to pay for it. Well, you know, just like with insurances, there's multiple different ways to go about recovering your data and it's only in crunch time, do you really care about what it is that you've been paying for, right, when it comes to backup?Could you get your backup through a git clone? Absolutely. Could you get your data back—how long is that going to take you? How painful is that going to be? What's going to be the impact to the business where you're trying to figure that out versus, like you say, the 39 bucks a month, a year, or whatever it might be to have something purpose-built for that, that is going to make the recovery process as quick and painless as possible and just get things back up online.Corey: I am not a big fan of the fear, uncertainty, and doubt approach, but I do practice what I preach here in that yeah, there is a real fear against data loss. It's not, “People are coming to get you, so you absolutely have to buy whatever it is I'm selling,” but it is something you absolutely have to think about. My core consulting proposition is that I optimize the AWS bill. And sometimes that means spending more. Okay, that one S3 bucket is extremely important to you and you say you can't sustain the loss of it ever so one zone is not an option. Where is it being backed up? Oh, it's not? Yeah, I suggest you spend more money and back that thing up if it's as irreplaceable as you say. It's about doing the right thing.Sam: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting, and it's going to be hard for you to prove the value of doing that when you are driving their bill up when you're trying to bring it down. But again, you have to look at something that's not itemized on that bill, which is going to be the impact of downtime. I'm not going to pretend to try and recall the exact figures because it also varies depending on your business, your industry, the size, but the impact of downtime is massive financially. Tens of thousands of dollars for small organizations per hour, millions and millions of dollars per hour for much larger organizations. The backup component of that is relatively small in comparison, so having something that is purpose-built, and is going to protect your data and help mitigate that impact of downtime.Because that's ultimately what you're trying to protect against. It is the recovery piece that you're buying is the most important piece. And like you, I would say, at least be cognizant of it and evaluate your options and what can you live with and what can you live without.Corey: That's the big burning question that I think a lot of people do not have a good answer to. And when you don't have an answer, you either backup everything or nothing. And I'm not a big fan of doing either of those things blindly.Sam: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is why we see varying different backup options as well, you know? You're not going to try and apply the same data protection policies each and every single workload within your environment because they've all got different types of workload criticality. And like you say, some of them might not even need to be backed up at all, just because they don't have data that needs to be protected. So, you need something that is going to be able to be flexible enough to apply across the entirety of your environment, protect it with the right policy, in terms of how frequently do you protect it, where do you store it, how often, or when are you eventually going to delete that and apply that on a workload by workload basis. And this is where the joy of things like tags come into play as well.Corey: One last thing I want to bring up is that I'm a big fan of watching for companies saying the quiet part out loud. And one area in which they do this—because they're forced to by brevity—is in the title tag of their website. I pull up veeam.com and I hover over the tab in my browser, and it says, “Veeam Software: Modern Data Protection.”And I want to call that out because you're not framing it as explicitly backup. So, the last topic I want to get into is the idea of security. Because I think it is not fully appreciated on a lived-experience basis—although people will of course agree to this when they're having ivory tower whiteboard discussions—that every place your data lives is a potential for a security breach to happen. So, you want to have your data living in a bunch of places ideally, for backup and resiliency purposes. But you also want it to be completely unworkable or illegible to anyone who is not authorized to have access to it.How do you balance those trade-offs yourself given that what you're fundamentally saying is, “Trust us with your Holy of Holies when it comes to things that power your entire business?” I mean, I can barely get some companies to agree to show me their AWS bill, let alone this is the data that contains all of this stuff to destroy our company.Sam: Yeah. Yeah, it's a great question. Before I explicitly answer that piece, I will just go to say that modern data protection does absolutely have a security component to it, and I think that backup absolutely needs to be a—I'm going to say this an air quotes—a “first class citizen” of any security strategy. I think when people think about security, their mind goes to the preventative, like how do we keep these bad people out?This is going to be a bit of the FUD that you love, but ultimately, the bad guys on the outside have an infinite number of attempts to get into your environment and only have to be right once to get in and start wreaking havoc. You on the other hand, as the good guy with your cape and whatnot, you have got to be right each and every single one of those times. And we as humans are fallible, right? None of us are perfect, and it's incredibly difficult to defend against these ever-evolving, more complex attacks. So backup, if someone does get in, having a clean, verifiable, recoverable backup, is really going to be the only thing that is going to save your organization, should that actually happen.And what's key to a secure backup? I would say separation, isolation of backup data from the production data, I would say utilizing things like immutability, so in AWS, we've got Amazon S3 object lock, so it's that write once, read many state for whatever retention period that you put on it. So, the data that they're seeking to encrypt, whether it's in production or in their backup, they cannot encrypt it. And then the other piece that I think is becoming more and more into play, and it's almost table stakes is encryption, right? And we can utilize things like AWS KMS for that encryption.But that's there to help defend against the exfiltration attempts. Because these bad guys are realizing, “Hey, people aren't paying me my ransom because they're just recovering from a clean backup, so now I'm going to take that backup data, I'm going to leak the personally identifiable information, trade secrets, or whatever on the internet, and that's going to put them in breach compliance and give them a hefty fine that way unless they pay me my ransom.” So encryption, so they can't read that data. So, not only can they not change it, but they can't read it is equally important. So, I would say those are the three big things for me on what's needed for backup to make sure it is clean and recoverable.Corey: I think that is one of those areas where people need to put additional levels of thought in. I think that if you have access to the production environment and have full administrative rights throughout it, you should definitionally not—at least with that account and ideally not you at all personally—have access to alter the backups. Full stop. I would say, on some level, there should not be the ability to alter backups for some particular workloads, the idea being that if you get hit with a ransomware infection, it's pretty bad, let's be clear, but if you can get all of your data back, it's more of an annoyance than it is, again, the existential business crisis that becomes something that redefines you as a company if you still are a company.Sam: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we can turn to a number of organizations. Code Spaces always springs to mind for me, I love Code Spaces. It was kind of one of those precursors to—Corey: It's amazing.Sam: Yeah, but they were running on AWS and they had everything, production and backups, all stored in one account. Got into the account. “We're going to delete your data if you don't pay us this ransom.” They were like, “Well, we're not paying you the ransoms. We got backups.” Well, they deleted those, too. And, you know, unfortunately, Code Spaces isn't around anymore. But it really kind of goes to show just the importance of at least logically separating your data across different accounts and not having that god-like access to absolutely everything.Corey: Yeah, when you talked about Code Spaces, I was in [unintelligible 00:32:29] talking about GitHub Codespaces specifically, where they have their developer workstations in the cloud. They're still very much around, at least last time I saw unless you know something I don't.Sam: Precursor to that. I can send you the link—Corey: Oh oh—Sam: You can share it with the listeners.Corey: Oh, yes, please do. I'd love to see that.Sam: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.Corey: And it's been a long and strange time in this industry. Speaking of links for the show notes, I appreciate you're spending so much time with me. Where can people go to learn more?Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I think veeam.com is kind of the first place that people gravitate towards. Me personally, I'm kind of like a hands-on learning kind of guy, so we always make free product available.And then you can find that on the AWS Marketplace. Simply search ‘Veeam' through there. A number of free products; we don't put time limits on it, we don't put feature limitations. You can backup ten instances, including your VPCs, which we actually didn't talk about today, but I do think is important. But I won't waste any more time on that.Corey: Oh, configuration of these things is critically important. If you don't know how everything was structured and built out, you're basically trying to re-architect from first principles based upon archaeology.Sam: Yeah [laugh], that's a real pain. So, we can help protect those VPCs and we actually don't put any limitations on the number of VPCs that you can protect; it's always free. So, if you're going to use it for anything, use it for that. But hands-on, marketplace, if you want more documentation, want to learn more, want to speak to someone veeam.com is the place to go.Corey: And we will, of course, include that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking so much time to speak with me today. It's appreciated.Sam: Thank you, Corey, and thanks for all the listeners tuning in today.Corey: Sam Nicholls, Director of Public Cloud at Veeam. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry insulting comment that takes you two hours to type out but then you lose it because you forgot to back it up.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Sam Strasser founded Treasure Financial, a cash management platform that helps businesses transform idle cash into revenue. Many companies, even famous, large companies, make up to 80% of their revenue not from selling products or services but from taking money out of their treasury and investing it. Still other companies, though, don't have enough money for a month's worth of runway. Sam explains how small companies can use what cash they have the way big businesses do. Risk, Sam explains, is part of any monetary transaction, and the key is embracing it, or at least mitigating the risks. Here Sam discusses what those myriad risks are.  Join Brendan and Sam to hear the greatest lesson Sam says he learned thus far, the most fun thing about building any company, and why he wishes he'd opened his business in the UK. Quotes: “The treasury department itself is really responsible for managing risk, and managing the broad scale for the financial resources for the company.” (2:37-2:44 | Sam) “GE was notorious for a lot of the things they've done.” (6:23-6:26 | Sam) “Every company should be able to maintain at least three months of their runway in a cash reserve of some kind. During the pandemic close to 600,000 companies went out of business and the majority of those had one month of runway.”(9:36-9:56 | Sam) “You really want to understand how much risk you can accrue before it starts affecting certain possibilities.” (15:35-15:42 | Sam) “You're never really spending money when you're swiping cards. You're swiping for debt. It's just a series of obligations and risks in a giant chain.” (17:43-17:53 | Sam) “I have no idea why anybody glorifies becoming a founder, it's one of the most difficult and painstaking things you can do.” (39:48-39:56 | Sam) Connect with Brendan Dell: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brendandell/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendanDell Instagram: @thebrendandellTikTok: @brendandell39 Buy a copy of Brendan's Book, The 12 Immutable Laws of High-Impact Messaging: https://www.indiebound.org/book/9780578210926  Connect with Sam Strasser:Treasure Website: https://treasure.tech/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/treasure-ai/ Check out Sam Strasser's recommended books: Keeping At It: The Quest for Sound Money and Good Government by Paul A. Volcker https://www.indiebound.org/search/book?keys=Keeping+at+it   No Rules Rule: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention by Reed Hastings and Erin Meyer https://www.indiebound.org/search/book?keys=The+No+Rules+Rule   Nudge by Richard A. Thaler and Cass R. Sunstein https://www.indiebound.org/search/book?keys=Nudge Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Billion Dollar Tech on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! Use code Brendan30 for 30% off your annual membership with RiverSide.fm  Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

A new assignment for George and Schumacher. Charlotte and Gen. Adams are ready to close the deal. Will Gov. Lewin help Samantha? Gen. Wilkes updates the Consul. Henry Hobbes and Dr. Schnieder begin to execute their plan. Cast: Scene 1 Capt. Roberts : Pete Lutz Mayor Schumacher : Scott Slagle Lt. Ramsay : Van Riker George Cooper : J Dean Garcia Soldier : Daniel French Scene 2 Charlotte Knox : Ilana Labourene Marie Knox : Katelin Curtis Sen. Harper : Rosanna Jimeno General Adams : Rich Green Sen. Michaels : Anne Ghrist Assistant : Daniel French Scene 3 Samantha Cooper : Victoria Fancki Susan Cooper : Nina Bricko Gov. Lewin : M A Doerfler Sheriff Dietz : Daniel French Nick Hobbes: Joe Brillion Scene 4 Consul Nathaniel : Blake Benlan Vice-Consol Calhoun : Katelin Curtis Benjamin Danton : Spencer J Fredrick Gen. Wilkes : Van Riker Dr. Meighan : Rosanna Jimeno Lars : Daniel French Scene 5 Henry Hobbes : Pete Lutz Dr. Schneider : Spencer J Fredrick Jailer : Nina Bricko   Production, Music, Foley, and Sound Design by Daniel French at Fishbonius Sound Design     Transcipt Generation Zombie Season 2, Chapter 2 “Unknown Expiration Date” by Steven Chisholm   NARRATOR: DZ-6, Porterville Town Hall ROBERTS: You certainly have exquisite taste in furniture, Schumacher. Is this desk of yours mahogany?  SCHUMACHER: Nothing so lavish, I'm afraid. It's cherry wood. ROBERTS: Nevertheless, a fine piece… Lieutenant Ramsay, you have the battle plans for Embalmersfield on hand? RAMSAY: Yes, sir. SOUND: UNRAVELING OF MAP. ROBERTS: Place it on the desk, if you will. SOUND: SMOOTHING OUT MAP ON DESKTOP. Wonderful. SCHUMACHER: You really do have this raid all planned out. ROBERTS: Yes, but there's been a slight change in plans. SCHUMACHER: Change in plans? SOUND: APPROACHING FOOTSTEPS. SOLDIER: Pardon the interruption, sir. ROBERTS: What is it, Private? SOLDIER: Corporal Cooper is here to see you. ROBERTS: Let him in. SOUND: SOLDIER DEPARTS ROOM. GEORGE ENTERS. George, how can I help you? GEORGE: It's done.  ROBERTS: Yes, I can smell the smoke on your uniform. You did a fine job, Corporal. GEORGE: (TIMID) Thank you, sir. Proud to serve the Life Guard. ROBERTS: I hope you understand why I had you do that. GEORGE: To prove my loyalty to the ULZ… And to preserve the sanctity of the living. ROBERTS: Yes, but you must understand what lead Leanne to such… unfortunate circumstances. Carelessness, sure. But we wouldn't be discussing her premature departure if not for the actions of your sister. It was not I that forced your hand, nor was it your own free will. Samantha, your own blood, was the one that set the blaze. It was treason that reduced Leanne to ashes. Do you understand, Corporal? GEORGE: I understand that she must pay for her crimes. ROBERTS: Good. Now that I'm assured of your allegiance, I must say, you've arrived at the perfect time. GEORGE: You have an assignment for me, sir? ROBERTS: Oh, yes. One that involves Mr. Schumacher, here. SCHUMACHER: Me? ROBERTS: You see this beautiful desk, Corporal? Cherry wood, I've been told by Schumacher. Where once this material was a great tree, producing oxygen for us living folk, now it is mere lifeless timber. But despite being felled, it still serves a purpose. Not nearly as noble a purpose as when it was living, but nonetheless, it functions as a desk on which to plan our annexation of Embalmersfield. Schumacher is much like this tree. He once lived a nobler life but had that privilege stripped away by undeath. Despite his breathless existence, he's still here to serve a purpose, and it's up to you, George, to see that he fulfills his obligation to the living.  SCHUMACHER: I gave you Porterville. What more can I do? SOUND: UNRAVELING PAPER. RAMSAY: Captain, here are the plans you asked for. ROBERTS: Thank you, Lieutenant… Corporal, would you kindly take a look at these? SOUND: ROBERTS HANDING PAPER TO GEORGE. GEORGE: It's… If you don't mind my asking, what am I looking at, Captain? RAMSAY: Allow me to explain, George. This line here, this is you and Schumacher. GEORGE: You have us… You have us heading to Embalmersfield? Alone?  ROBERTS: Correct. SCHUMACHER: As devoted as I am to your cause, you can't expect me to go on this suicide mission. RAMSAY: This isn't a preliminary attack. At least, not in the way you two are envisioning. George, here, is simply to escort you to the outer perimeter of Embalmersfield. A chaperone of sorts to ensure that you're not beset upon by any free-roaming Life Guards. SCHUMACHER: Am I some offering to the enemy? RAMSAY: You're a refugee. SCHUMACHER: I don't understand. ROBERTS: Schumacher… You're going to seek sanctuary in the city of Embalmersfield. You're going to be the mayor who braved the battle and escaped. And when they welcome you with warm blankets and hot cocoa – or whatever it is your kind do for comfort – you're going to cozy up to Governor Lewin. She's no doubt caught wind of the annexation of Porterville, and who better to trust with their defense plans than someone who's faced the might of the ULZ themselves? Schumacher, I'm once again asking you to be our man on the inside.  SCHUMACHER: I… ROBERTS: I'm confident your faith in the ULZ has not wavered. SCHUMACHER: No. No, it has not. ROBERTS: Thank you. And you, Corporal. I know I can trust you with delivering the mayor to his destination. GEORGE: Yes, sir. ROBERTS: Excellent. Ramsay has been kind enough to outline your route. Follow that path closely, and you shouldn't run into trouble. Do you have any questions? GEORGE: Yes, Captain. When do we start? ROBERTS: Meet Ramsay at sunset by the northwest entrance to Porterville. He'll get you both situated. GEORGE: Will do, sir. ROBERTS: You're dismissed, Corporal. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. SCHUMACHER: And me? ROBERTS: You're free to leave, too, Schumacher. SCHUMACHER: Okay. I'll see you in Embalmersfield, Roberts. ROBERTS: Look forward to it. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. ROBERTS: Oh, one more thing, Mayor. SCHUMACHER: What's that? SOUND: GUNSHOT. SCHUMACHER: What the–What the hell did you do that for?! ROBERTS: You can't expect them to think you got out of Porterville completely unscathed, can you?    NARRATOR: DZ-1, a crisis room in the White House MARIE: (YAWN) Tired. CHARLOTTE: You're tired? You can take a nap right here. MARIE: I want my bed. CHARLOTTE: You can have your bed after I'm through talking with my friends, here. HARPER: Mrs. Knox, pardon my manners, but is it necessary that your child be privy to our conversations? MARIE: Privy! CHARLOTTE: If only there was someone I could trust to watch her. HARPER: Someone you can trust? Madam, is everything okay? MICHAELS: What about her usual caretaker, Margaret?  MARIE: Bad Margaret! SOUND: DOOR OPENING. ADAMS: I apologize for my tardiness, Mrs. Knox. CHARLOTTE: Apology not necessary. But, before you come in, can I have a quick word with you outside? ADAMS: Of course. CHARLOTTE: Excuse me, please. Come on, Marie. SOUND: FOOTSTEPS, AS CHARLOTTE MOVES TOWARD CRISIS ROOM ENTRANCE. DOOR CLOSING. CHARLOTTE: Has she said anything, yet? ADAMS: She's remaining tight-lipped, Madam, but I'm confident she's withholding something from us. We've just begun a search of her quarters. If something comes up, you'll be the first to know. CHARLOTTE: How long can we reasonably hold Margaret? MARIE: (UNCOMFORTABLE GROAN) ADAMS: We're certainly running out of time. Legally, she can remain detained for another twelve or so hours. CHARLOTTE: Then let's hope we can get something out of her by then… Come on, let's get back in there. SOUND: DOOR OPENING. FOOTSTEPS TO SEATS AT TABLE. Mrs. Speaker. Senator. You both have my sincerest apologies for the delay. ADAMS: Speaker Harper. Senator Michaels. Always a pleasure. HARPER: Welcome, General. MICHAELS: Yes, hello. MARIE: Hi! CHARLOTTE: I called this meeting to discuss any further intelligence you all may have gathered. As you're all well aware, the Vice President remains on a diplomatic mission in the Zombie's Republic of China. With her absence extending until the eve of the centenary, it's fallen on us to determine our next steps. HARPER: I'll reiterate what I said during our last meeting, as I'm sure the Senate Majority Leader will agree, I believe appropriate action is to quell this rogue Life Guard unit and seek reparations after. As Danton said, there's no need to declare war. MICHAELS: Even if you wanted to, Madam, you do not have the votes in Congress to pass a formal declaration of war. HARPER: But speaking of Danton, I've yet to establish any communication with him since touching down in the ULZ. Though, with President Knox's recent correspondence, it appears negotiations are still underway, despite this misstep from LZ-4. ADAMS: Misstep? With all due respect, Mrs. Speaker, it was a god-damned genocide.  HARPER: And you're seeing to it that it doesn't happen again. Am I correct? ADAMS: The 40th infantry will touch down in Embalmersfield within the hour. But further lives are at stake. If the Consul is unable to gain control over this rogue regiment, there is sure to be bloodshed. MICHAELS: Congress is not yet prepared to declare war, General. ADAMS: Did you hear any utterance of that word leave my lips, Senator? MICHAELS: No, I did not, but we've received reassurance from President Knox himself that the ULZ has this situation under control. Let us not also forget that Embalmerfield is also receiving the help of LZ-11. ADAMS: And if evidence points to the contrary? MICHAELS: Then you will have the full support of Congress to do as you please. Just know that the commander-in-chief also has a say. I've communicated our response to LZ-1, and they are aware of our accompanying reinforcements in Embalmersfield. Both regiments have received orders not to engage with one another and to instead address the threat from LZ-4. ADAMS: Pardon me if I take less credence in their reassurances. A division of their army has lain waste to a town full of innocents, after all. HARPER: The time for drastic steps is not now. I think we all agree, our top priority is stamping out this band of saboteurs. CHARLOTTE: Our top priority is getting my husband back. MARIE: I miss dad. CHARLOTTE: I know, dear. Me, too. MICHAELS: Nevertheless, the president is still engaging in negotiations with the Consul, and until he's– SOUND: KNOCKING ON DOOR. CHARLOTTE: (SIGH) Can someone see who that is? SOUND: DOOR OPENING. ASSISTANT: Excuse the interruption, Madam. We've just received further correspondence from the president. CHARLOTTE: Another recording? So soon? ASSISTANT: Yes, Mrs. Knox. CHARLOTTE: Well, if you could all pardon me while I listen to this, I'd be greatly appreciative. I will send for you when we can resume this meeting. SOUND: ADAMS, MICHAELS, AND HARPER GET UP AND BEGIN LEAVING THE ROOM. MARIE: Bye-bye! CHARLOTTE: General, if you wouldn't mind sticking around for this. ADAMS: Oh, of course, Mrs. Knox. SOUND: ADAMS RESUMES SITTING AT HIS CHAIR. DOOR CLOSES AS MICHAELS AND HARPER DEPART. CHARLOTTE: It's great to hear my husband's voice, General, but I can't shake the feeling that something's off. ADAMS: I don't think you need me to tell you my position on the matter.  CHARLOTTE: I mean, I always knew communication with the ULZ was shoddy, but how is it I'm not able to speak directly to him? ADAMS: I agree with your suspicions. Something isn't adding up, which is why I took the liberty of tacking on some extra reinforcements to Embalmersfield.  CHARLOTTE: Extra reinforcements? What do you mean? ADAMS: I've directed the 75th Ranger Regiment to defend Embalmersfield. CHARLOTTE: Jesus, General! You don't think that's a little overkill? ADAMS: With two ULZ regiments converging on the city – friend or foe – we can't be too careful. CHARLOTTE: (SIGH) Let's hope our suspicions are false, then. MARIE: Bed now? CHARLOTTE: Soon. Very soon.   NARRATOR: DZ 6, the Governor's Office in Zonal Capitol, Embalmersfield SAM: … And that's when Sheriff Dietz helped us escape. We were pursued by the Life Guard but were fortunate enough to shake them before arriving here. LEWIN: I'm… speechless. And you're sure of what you saw? NICK: Yep, homicidal soldiers-in-training. Zombies in cages. DIETZ: And I can attest to everything following their arrival in Porterville. LEWIN: If what you say is true. We must get word to the president. DIETZ: Good luck with that. From what I hear, he's so entrenched in those peace negotiations in the Consulate, hardly anyone can get a hold of him.  LEWIN: I'll make some calls. The public must be made aware of these zombie traffickers. Who knows how many ULZ loyalists reside within our borders? And what could they be doing with those poor kidnapped folk? NICK: Target practice, for one. Immolations. Who knows what else? They'd run out of matches if they were to execute every captured zombie. SAM: Nick's right. My brother talked about Life Guard members being ordered to transport “cargo” to LZ-1. Conveniently, those missions were around the time a whole batch of zombies would suddenly go missing from our cells.  SAM'S MOM: Oh, George… I wonder how wrapped up in this mess he is.  LEWIN: (STRESSED SIGH) Well let's hope we can rely on those troops coming from LZ-11.  DIETZ: Come again? NICK: LZ-11 troops? LEWIN: That's right, you've probably been a bit preoccupied, but the Consul has offered the help of LZ-11's Life Guard to defend Embalmersfield against the rogue Life Guard units. Fortunately, we've received word that the 40th infantry will be touching down any minute, so in the event that LZ-11 is a Trojan horse, our troops should handily stamp that out. SAM: A Life Guard regiment ordered to protect zombies? I never thought I'd hear anything like that. Life Guard soldiers – at least where I'm from – are taught to despise the undead. Taught to kill them at any and every opportunity. SAM'S MOM: Governor, they're called “Life Guard” for a reason. They would never raise a hand to their own. LEWIN: Do you expect me to just call off their reinforcements? I'm afraid it's a bit late for that. NICK: What's that supposed to mean? LEWIN: The LZ-11 troops are set to arrive by tomorrow morning. SAM: Can you order them to camp just beyond the border? Or at least intercept LZ-4's force south of here? Allowing Life Guard within the city is a recipe for disaster. LEWIN: For Christ's sake, I'm not a tactician. But they're landing in the airfield on the outskirts of the city. I've been in communication with General Adams, and he assured me that we have the full support of the federal government. My heart goes out to the people of Porterville, truly. It was unforgivable what those LZ soldiers did, but we have something they didn't have. Time and a whole lot of guns coming our way. SAM: Then use this time wisely and find a way to keep those soldiers out of your city.  LEWIN: Okay, but right now, those reporters are tearing at each other's flesh to find out about you lot. I need to give the people answers. Once this press conference is over, I'll consider negotiating LZ-11's defensive position. SAM: By then, it could be too late. LEWIN: Listen, I know you all have been through hell, but there's nothing to worry about here in Embalmersfield. Sam, you and your mother have known nothing but the LZ your whole life, but we here in the DZ are well-versed in the might of our military. If you think even two LZ regiments can stand against one of ours, you're sorely mistaken. DIETZ: This girl ain't been wrong yet. I urge you to at least consider what she's said. LEWIN: Like I said, it's been taken into consideration. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to address the people. SAM: You're making a mistake taking this so lightly. LEWIN: Help yourselves to whatever you need. SOUND: DEPARTING FOOTSTEPS. DOOR OPENS AND CLOSES. DIETZ: And this is why I always say, you can never rely on a politician.   NARRATOR: LZ-1, a crisis room in the Consular Palace. CONSUL: I'm starving. This meeting was supposed to start half an hour ago. LARS: The catering is on its way, your Consulship.  CONSUL: This shouldn't be taking so damn long. CALHOUN: Not at all. The script wasn't nearly as comprehensive as the previous one. SOUND: DOOR OPENING AND CLOSING. DANTON: I apologize for my tardiness. The president was not very cooperative. CONSUL: If he wants to continue playing games, he can see just how serious we were about our threat. DANTON: Believe me, I kept reminding him about his daughter, but the man's at the end of his rope. Can't blame him really. Being outsmarted by someone working right under your nose must be a significant blow to your ego. CALHOUN: (SIGH) As long as he continues to do our bidding, we won't have to take any unnecessary steps. CONSUL: Leave it to the UDZ to elect such a stubborn, impertinent leader. Nevertheless, Danton, you can take a seat now… General Wilkes, I trust LZ-11 is still en route to Embalmersfield? WILKES: Landing tomorrow, as scheduled. From the airfield, they will march into Embalmersfield and set up a loose – albeit staged – perimeter within the southern border of the city. Fortunately, we were able to reroute more gas canisters to their regiment from LZ-7, so they're well equipped to take Embalmersfield. Of course, the remaining variable is when Captain Roberts intends to launch an invasion on Embalmersfield.  CALHOUN: Has no one communicated the plans to him? CONSUL: No, he will not know anything of this until the day of his attack. An LZ-11 messenger will relay the plan to him on the day, but Captain Roberts is too much of a liability to wantonly relinquish such information. WILKES: Yes, and I've been assured by Doctor Meighan that the canisters LZ-11 have on hand should be enough to cover Embalmersfield and the surrounding districts. The canisters will remain on the C-130s stationed in the airfields after arrival. Just before LZ-4's attack, they'll take off with a skeleton crew to loose the canisters over the city's defenses and most populous neighborhoods. There's likely to be creases in coverage, but our forces should be able to eliminate any surviving targets. DANTON: Is there a plan to hold the city? WILKES: According to the wind predictions, the gas should make the region uninhabitable to the undead for at least a full 24 hours, and the canisters should cause minimal damage to the city's infrastructure. We have LZ-10 on standby. When given the order, they will reinforce Embalmersfield and man the defenses abandoned by the UDZ's troops. CONSUL: Their armaments will make a lovely addition to our military. WILKES: Precisely, your consulship. Despite this change in pace, our invasion should go off without a hitch. And Doctor Meighan's shipments continue to remain on schedule. It won't be much longer until every one of our regiments has enough gas to extinguish an entire city. CONSUL: Ah, and may the living prosper once more. SOUND: KNOCKING ON DOOR. LARS: I'll get it SOUND: DOOR OPENING. Lars : Oh, my apologies. It seems lunch isn't quite ready. CONSUL: Well, then who's at the door? MEIGHAN: Greetings, Consul. CONSUL: Ah, yes. Doctor. Please come in. MEIGHAN: I'm afraid I have some… unfortunate news. CONSUL: (PERTURBED) Go on. MEIGHAN: It's the White House, sir. We've lost communication with our woman on the inside, Margaret. She never filed yesterday's vaccination report for Marie. CONSUL: Could it be that she simply forgot. MEIGHAN: She's a very capable professional, sir. She's not one to forgo something so important as this. DANTON: Wait, you're saying that Marie hasn't received her latest vaccination? MEIGHAN: And without you there, Danton, we have no one else to administer it. CALHOUN: What will happen to the girl if she doesn't receive the vaccine? Will she simply re-zombify? MEIGHAN: The vaccine triggers a response in the patient's bone marrow. Think of it as jump-starting a car. Every injection stimulates the body's stem cells, which in turn produce white blood cells. At some point, her body may retain the ability to produce its own white blood cells, but for now, the vaccine is the only thing setting this production in motion. Over time, her immune system will become weaker as these cells die off, and given her apparent immunity to zombification, the common cold, alone, could be enough to kill her. CONSUL: Thereby giving up our leverage over Knox. MEIGHAN: Precisely. DANTON: That is, of course, worrying, but more concerning still is Margaret. CONSUL: How do you mean, Danton? DANTON: I've noticed she was growing a subtle affinity for the child. Assuming she's been detained, I'm not so sure how long she can keep her lips sealed when it's Marie's life on the line. CONSUL: She'd betray the ULZ for one of them? DANTON: With all due respect, your Consulship. Not one of them. She is indeed one of the living now. Though, for how long, I don't know.   NARRATOR: LZ-1, the cellblock beneath the Consular Palace. HOBBES: Guards! Someone! Anyone! Something's wrong with this man! SCHNEIDER: (SPUTTER, COUGH, and GROAN) HOBBES: I think this man's sick! Anyone?! JAILER: (ANNOYED) I'm coming. I'm coming. HOBBES: He just started gripping his stomach. Rolling around on the ground. Moaning and such. SCHNEIDER: Ugh… (WEAK) Please… JAILER: Christ, man. You look paler than this lumbering stiff next door. HOBBES: Never mind that, this man clearly needs help. SCHNEIDER: (WHEEZE) I can't… (WHEEZE) I can't… breathe. JAILER: Let… Uh, let me go get a doctor. HOBBES: This guy is a doctor. SCHNEIDER: Chest… (WHEEZE) Chest compressions… Please. JAILER: CPR? I ain't done anything like that since I was a greenhorn in the Life Guard. Don't suppose they teach you any first aid in the UDZ, huh? HOBBES: What? Of course not. Just do as he tells you. Look, he's miming it now. JAILER: How do I know he's not faking it? HOBBES: I don't think it's normal for your kind to be that color. Besides, he's half your size. SCHNEIDER: (WHEEZE and COUGH) JAILER: Aw, hell! SOUND: JAILER FIDGETS WITH RING OF KEYS. JAILER: I can't have another prisoner die on my watch. It'll be off to LZ-5 for me. SOUND: PRISONER DOOR OPENS AND JAILER APPROACHES SCHNEIDER. HOBBES: Hurry! JAILER: Okay, so… Lay still, why don't you?! Okay, I just place my hands here and… Oof! What the hell?! SCHNEIDER: (SOUNDS OF STRUGGLING) JAILER: Hey, let go of my rifle! (GRUNT) I said stop! Let go! SOUND: GUNSHOT. SCHNEIDER: (DYING BREATH) JAILER: No… No, no, no. This can't… You saw it, right? You saw it all. He was trying to take my rifle from me. It was… It was self-defense, yeah? HOBBES: Dr. Schneider, no… You… You killed him. JAILER: I didn't kill nobody.  SOUND: FOOTSTEPS TOWARD THE BARS. JAILER TAPS HIS GUN AGAINST THE BARS. And you're going to corroborate that story or else I'll make sure you're first in line at our next barbeque. You understand? HOBBES: You already took my son from me. Your worst can't beat that. JAILER: Look, I'm just asking you to tell the truth of it, got it– SOUND: SCHNEIDER HITS THE JAILER IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD. (PAINED GRUNT) SOUND: JAILER FALLS TO THE GROUND.  HOBBES: (HUSHED) You did it! Great job! SCHNEIDER: You were right; your kind really can't feel a thing.  HOBBES: I–I'm sorry you got shot. That wasn't part of the plan. Do you know if that life-restoring vaccine you guys got will work with a hole in your chest? SCHNEIDER: (SIGH) Tempt fate by saying I have almost nothing to lose, and then this happens. I, unfortunately, know little of what the vaccine does outside a brief explanation from that homicidal maniac, Dr. Meighan. If they intend to use it on the UDZ, especially with the states of decay of most citizens, then I presume it'll work on me. Besides, the bullet narrowly missed my heart. HOBBES: Well, here's hoping it works. Either way, I appreciate your sacrifice. SCHNEIDER: I really underestimated how quickly the virus would take hold. HOBBES: Right, but let's get a move on. I'm sure all this commotion will eventually garner some attention. Not to mention, that jailer seemed like he had a thick skull, so he could be up at any moment. SCHNEIDER: Okay… SOUND: JINGLING KEYS. Why is it prison guards always have such heavy sets of keys? HOBBES: Oh, and don't forget the rifle. SCHNEIDER: Rifle? You know how to use this thing? HOBBES: You don't think I'd pass up on the chance to fire guns at my armor prototypes, did you? SCHNEIDER: Makes sense. HOBBES: Now, get me out of here, and let's go find Nick.   End of episode.

In this episode, we cover: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:02:23 - Iwata is the best, rest in peace 00:06:45 - Sam sneaks some SNES emulators/Engineer prep 00:08:20 - AWS, incidents, and China 00:16:40 - Understanding the big picture and moving from project to product 00:19:18 - Sam's time at Snacphat 00:26:40 - Sam's work at Gremlin, and culture changes 00:34:15 - Pokémon Go and Outro TranscriptSam: It's like anything else: You can have good people and bad people. But I wouldn't advocate for no people.Julie: [laugh].Sam: You kind of need humans involved.Julie: Welcome to the Break Things on Purpose podcast, a show about people, culture, and reliability. In this episode, we talk with Sam Rossoff, principal software engineer at Gremlin, about legendary programmers, data center disasters at AWS, going from 15 to 3000 engineers at Snapchat, and of course, Pokémon.Julie: Welcome to Break Things on Purpose. Today, Jason Yee and I are joined by Sam Rossoff, principal software engineer at Gremlin, and max level 100. Pokémon trainer. So Sam, why don't you tell us real quick who you are.Sam: So, I'm Sam Rossoff. I'm an engineer here at Gremlin. I've been in engineering here for two years. It's a good time. I certainly enjoyed it. And before that, I was at Snapchat for six years, and prior to that at Amazon for four years. And actually, before I was at Amazon, I was at Nokia Research Center in Palo Alto, and prior to that, I was at Activision. This was before they merged with Blizzard, all the way back in 2002. I worked in QA.Julie: And do you have any of those Nokia phones that are holding up your desk, or computer, or anything?Sam: I think I've been N95 around here somewhere. It's, like, a phone circa 2009. Probably. I remember, it was like a really nice, expensive phone at the time and they just gave it to us. And I was like, “ oh, this is really nice.”And then the iPhone came out. And I was like [laugh], “I don't know why I have this.” Also, I need to find a new job. That was my primary—I remember I was sitting in a meeting—this was lunch. It wasn't a meeting.I was sitting at lunch with some other engineers at Nokia Research, and they were telling me the story about this app—because the App Store was brand new in those days—it was called iRich, and it was $10,000. It didn't do anything. It was, like, a glowing—it was, like, NFTs, before NFTs—and it was just, like, a glowing thing on your phone. And you just, like, bought it to show you could waste $10,000 an app. And that was the moment where I was like, “I need to get out of this company. I need a new job.” It's depressing at the time, I guess.Julie: So. Sam, you're the best.Sam: No. False. Let me tell you story. There's a guy, his name is Iwata, right? He's a software developer. He works at a company called HAL Laboratories. You may recall, he built a game called Kirby. Very famous game; very popular.HAL Laboratories gets acquired by Nintendo. And Nintendo is like, “Hey, can you”—but Iwata, by the way, is the president of HAL Laboratories. Which is like, you know, ten people, so not—and they're like, “Hey, can you, like, send someone over? We're having trouble with this game we're making.” Right, the game question, at the time they called it Pokémon 2, now we call it Gold and Silver, and Iwata just goes over himself because he's a programmer in addition to be president of HAL Laboratories.And so he goes over there and he's like, “How can I help?” And they're like, “We're over time. We're over budget. We can't fit all the data on the cart. We're just, like, cutting features left and right.” He's like, “Don't worry. I got this.”And he comes up with this crazy compression algorithm, so they have so much space left, they put a second game inside of the game. They add back in features that weren't there originally. And they released on time. And they called this guy the legendary programmer. As a kid, he was my hero.Also famous for building Super Smash Brothers, becoming the president of all of Nintendo later on in his life. And he died a couple years ago, of cancer, if I recall correctly. But he did this motion when he was president of Nintendo. So, you ever see somebody in Nintendo go like this, that's a reference to Iwata, the legendary programmer.Jason: And since this is a podcast, Sam is two hands up, or just search YouTube for—Sam: Iwata.Jason: That's the lesson. [laugh].Sam: [laugh]. His big console design after he became President of Nintendo was the Nintendo Wii, as you may recall, with the nunchucks and everything. Yeah. That's Iwata. Crazy.Julie: We were actually just playing the Nintendo Wii the other day. It is still a high-quality game.Sam: Yeah.Jason: The original Wii? Not like the… whatever?Julie: Yeah. Like, the original Wii.Jason: Since you brought up the Wii, the Wii was the first console I ever owned because I grew up with parents that made it important to do schoolwork, and their entire argument was, if you get a Nintendo, you'll stop doing your homework and school stuff, and your grades will suffer, and just play it all the time. And so they refuse to let me get a Nintendo. Until at one point I, like, hounded them enough-I was probably, like, eight or nine years old, and I'm like, “Can I borrow a friend's Nintendo?” And they were like, sure you can borrow it for the weekend. So, of course, I borrowed it and I played it the whole weekend because, like, limited time. And then they used that as the proof of like, “See? All you did this weekend was play Nintendo. This is why we won't get you one.” [laugh].Sam: So, I had the exact same problem growing up. My parents are also very strict. And firm believers in corporal punishment. And so no video games was very clear. And especially, you know, after Columbine, which was when I was in high school.That was like a hard line they held. But I had friends. I would go to their houses, I would play at their houses. And so I didn't have any of those consoles growing up, but I did eventually get, like, my dad's old hand-me-down computer for, like, schoolwork and stuff, and I remember—first of all, figuring out how to program, but also figuring out how to run SNES emulators on [laugh] on those machines. And, like, a lot of my experience playing video games was waking up at 2 a.m. in the morning, getting on emulators, playing that until about, you know, five, then turning it off and pretending to go back to bed.Julie: So see, you were just preparing to be an engineer who would get woken up at 2 a.m. with a page. I feel like you were just training yourself for incidents.Sam: What I did learn—which has been very useful—is I learned how to fall asleep very quickly. I can fall asleep anywhere, anytime, on, like, a moment's notice. And that's a fantastic skill to have, let me tell you. Especially when [crosstalk 00:07:53]—Julie: That's a magic skill.Sam: Yeah.Julie: That is a magic skill. I'm so jealous of people that can just fall asleep when they want to. For me, it's probably some Benadryl, maybe add in some melatonin. So, I'm very jealous of you. Now I—Jason: There's probably a reason that I'm drinking all this cheap scotch right now.Sam: [laugh].Julie: We should point out that it's one o'clock in the morning for Jason because he's in Estonia right now. So, thank you, A, for doing this for us, and we did promise that you would get to talk about Pokémon. So—Sam: [laugh].Julie: [laugh].Sam: I don't know if you noticed, immediately, that's what I went to. I got a story about Pokémon.Julie: So, have you heard any of our episodes?Sam: I have. I have listened to some. They're mostly Jason, sort of, interviewing various people about their experience. I feel like they come, like, way more well-prepared than I am because they have, like, stuff they want to talk about, usually.Julie: They also generally have more than an hour or two's notice. So.Sam: Well, that's fair. Yeah. That probably [laugh] that probably helps. Whereas, like, I, like, refreshed one story about Iwata, and that's, like, my level of preparation here. So… don't expect too much.Julie: I have no expectations. Jason already had what you should talk about lined up anyway. Something about AWS incidents in China.Sam: Oh, my God. The first question is, which one?Jason: [laugh].Sam: So, I don't know how much you're familiar with the business situation in China, but American businesses are not allowed to operate in China. What happens is you create a Chinese subsidiary that's two-thirds owned by Chinese nationals in some sort of way, you work through other companies directly, and you form, like, these partnerships. And I know you know, very famously, Blizzard did this many years ago, and then, like, when they pulled out China, that company, all the people worked at are like, “Well, we're just going to take your assets and make our own version of World of Warcraft and just, like, run that instead.” But Amazon did, and it was always this long game of telephone, where people from Amazon usually, like, VP, C-level people were asking for various things. And there were people whose responsibility it was to, like, go and make those things happen.And maybe they did or, like, maybe they just said they did, right? And, like, it was never clear how much of it was lost in translation, or they're just, like, dealing with unreasonable requirements, and they're just, like, trying to get something done. But one story is one of my favorites because I was on this call. Amazon required all of their data centers to be multiple zones, right? So, now they talk about availability zones in a region. Internally at Amazon, that's not how we referred to things; it'd be like, there's the data center in Virginia, and there's, like, the first one, the second one, the third one, right? They're just, like, numbered; we knew what they were.And you had to have three of them, and then all services had to be redundant such they could handle a single data center failure. In the earlier days of Amazon, they would actually go turn off data centers to, like, make you prove this as the case. It's was, like, a very early version of chaos engineering. Because it's just, like, unreliable. And unfortunately, AWS kind of put the kibosh on that because it turns out people purchasing VMs on AWS don't like it when you turn off their VMs without warning. Which, like, I'm sympathetic, uh… I don't know.As a side note, if you are data center redundant, that means you're running excess capacity. So, if I'm about to lose a data center, I need to be able to maintain traffic without a real loss in error rates, that means I've got to be running, like, 50% excess capacity if I've only got three data centers, or 33% if you're four data centers. And so capacity of course was always the hard problem when you're dealing with data centers. So, when we were running the Chinese website— z.cn or amazon.cn—there was a data center in China, as you might imagine, as required by the complex business regulations and whatnot.And it had, you know, three availability zones, for lack of a better term. Or we thought it had three availability zones, which of course, this is what happened. One day, I got paged into this call, and they were dealing with a website outage, and we were trying to get people on the ground in China on the call, which as I recall, actually is a real hard problem to get. It was the middle of the night there; there was a very bad rainstorm; people were not near internet connectivity. If you're unfamiliar with the Chinese landscape—well, it's more complex today, but in those days, there were just basically two ISPs in China, and, like, Amazon only paired with one of them.And so if you were on the other one, it was very difficult to get back into Amazon systems. And so they'd have places they could go to so they could connect them when they—and so it was pair to. And so it was a very difficult situation. It took us a while to get people on the phone, but basically, we lost two data centers at the same time, which was very surprising. And later we find out what happened is one of the data centers had flooded, which is bad, bunch of electrical machines flooding for a rainstorm that's got whatever else going on.It turns out the other data center was physically inside of the first [laugh] data center. Which is not the sort of isolation you want between two regions. It's not really clear where in the conversation, you know, things got lost, such that this is what got implemented. But we had three data centers and in theory, and in practice, we had two data centers, since one was inside the other. And when the first one flooded, the, like, floor gave away, and the servers crashed down on top of the other one. [laugh].And so they were literally inside of each other after that point. They took down the Chinese website for Amazon. It was an experience. It was also one of those calls where there's not a lot I could do to help, which is always frustrating for a lot of reasons.Julie: So, how did you handle that call? Out of curiosity, I mean, what do you say?Sam: Well, I'll be honest with you, it took us a long time to get that information, to get save the world. Most of the call actually was trying to get ahold of people try to get information, get translators—because almost everybody on the line did not speak either Cantonese or Mandarin, which is what the engineers were working with—and so by the time we got an understanding—I was in Seattle at the time—Seattle got an understanding of what was happening in—I think it was Beijing. I don't recall off the top of my head—the people on the ground had done a lot of work to isolate and get things up and running, and the remainder of the work was reallocating capacity in the remaining data center so that we wouldn't be running data center redundant, but at the very least, we would be able to serve something. It was, as I recall, it was a very long outage we had to take. Although in those days, the Amazon cn website was not really a profit center.The business was—the Amazon business—was willing to sell things at steep discounts in China to establish themselves in that market, and so, there was always sort of a question of whether or not the outage was saving the company money. Which is, like, sort of a—Julie: [laugh].Sam: —it's like a weird place to be in as an engineer, right? Because you're, like, “You're supposed to be adding business value.” I'm like, “I feel like doing nothing might be adding business out here.” It's not true, obviously because the business value was to be in the Chinese market and to build an Amazon presence for some eventual world. Which I don't know if they ever—they got to. I don't work at Amazon, and haven't in almost a decade now.But it was definitely—it's the kind of thing that wears our morale, right? If you know the business is doing something that is sort of questionable in these ways. And look, in the sales, you know, when you're selling physical goods, industry loss leaders are a perfectly normal part of the industry. And you understand. Like, you sell certain items or loss to get people in the door, totally.But as engineering lacked a real strong view of the cohesive situation on the ground, the business inputs, that's hard on engineering, right, where they're sort of not clear what the right thing is, right? And anytime you take the engineers very far away from the product, they're going to make a bunch of decisions that are fundamentally in a vacuum. And if you don't have a good feel for what the business incentives are, or how the product is interacting with customers, then you're making decisions in a vacuum because there's some technical implementation you have to commit in some way, you're going to make a lot of the wrong decisions. And that was definitely a tough situation for us in those days. I hear it's significantly better today. I can't speak to it personally because I don't work there, but I do hear they have a much better situation today.Julie: Well, I'll tell you, just on the data center thing, I did just complete my Amazon Certified Cloud Practitioner. And during the Amazon training, they drilled it into you that the availability zones were tens of miles apart—the data centers were tens of miles apart—and now I understand why because they're just making sure that we know that there's no data centers inside data centers. [laugh].Sam: It was a real concern.Julie: [laugh]. But kind of going back though, to the business outcomes, quite a while ago, I used to give a talk called, “You Can't Buy DevOps,” and a lot of the things in that talk were based off of some of the reading that I did, in the book, Accelerate by Dr. Nicole Forsgren, Gene Kim, and Jez Humble. And one of the things they talked about is high-performing teams understanding the business goals. And kind of going back to that, making those decisions in a vacuum—and then I think, also, when you're making those decisions in a vacuum, do you have the focus on the customer? Do you understand the direction of the organization, and why are you making these decisions?Jason: I mean, I think that's also—just to dovetail on to that, that's sort of been the larger—if we look at the larger trend in technology, I think that's been the goal, right? We've moved from project management to product management, and that's been a change. And in our field, in SRE and things, we've moved from just thinking of metrics, and there were all these monitoring frameworks like USE (Utilization, Saturation, Errors) and RED (Rate, Errors, Duration) and monitoring for errors, and we've moved to this idea of SLOs, right? And SLOs are often supposed to be based on what's my customer experience? And so I think, overall, aside from Accelerate and DevOps, DevOps I feel like, has just been one part of this longer journey of getting engineers to understand where they fit within the grander scheme of things.Sam: Yeah. I would say, in general, anytime you have some sort of metric, which you're working towards, in some sort of reasonable way, it's easy to over-optimize for the metric. And if you think of the metric instead as sort of like the needle on a compass, it's like vaguely pointing north, right, but keep in mind, the reason we're heading north is because X, Y, Z, right? It's a lot easier for, like, individuals making the decisions that they have to on a day-to-day basis to make the right ones, right? And if you just optimize for the metric—I'm not saying metrics aren't helpful; they're extremely important. I would rather be lost with a compass than without one, but I also would like to know where I'm going and not just be wandering to northwards with the compass, right?Julie: Absolutely. And then—Jason: I mean, you don't want to get measured on lines of code that you commit.Sam: Listen. I will commit 70 lines of code. Get ready.Julie: Well, and metrics can be gamed, right? If people don't understand why those metrics are important—the overall vision; you've just got to understand the vision. Speaking of vision, you also worked at Snap.Sam: I did. I did. That was a really fun place to work. I joined Snapchat; there were 30 people at the company and 14 engineers. Very small company. And a lot of users, you know, 20-plus million users by that point, but very small company.And all the engineers, we used to sit in one room together, and so when you wanted to deploy the production back end, you, like, raised your hand. You're like, “Hey, I'm going to ship out the code. Does anyone have changes that are going out, or is everyone else already doing it?” And one of my coworkers actually wrote something into our deploy script so the speakers on your computer would, like, say, “Deploying production” just so, like, people could hear when it went out the door. Because, like, when you're all in one room, that's, like, a totally credible deployment strategy.We did build automation around that on CircleCI, which in those days was—I think this was 2014—much less big than it is today. And the company did eventually scale to at least 3000 engineers by the time I left, maybe more. It was hard for me to keep track because the company just grown in all these different dimensions. But it was really interesting to live through that.Julie: So, tell me about that. You went from, what, you said, 30 engineers to 3000 in the time that you were there.Sam: Fifteen engineers, I was the fifteenth.Julie: Fifteen. Fifteen engineers. What were some of the pain points that you experienced? And actually maybe even some advice for folks going through big company growth spurts?Sam: Yeah, that hypergrowth? I think it's easier for me to think about the areas that Snap did things wrong, but those were, like, explicit decisions we made, right? It might not be the case that you have these problems at your company. Like, one of the problems Snap had for a long time, we did not hire frontline managers or TPMs, and what that did is it create a lot of situations where you have director-levels with, like, 50-plus direct reports who struggled to make sure that—I don't know, there's no way you're going to manage 50-plus direct reports as engineers, right? Like, and it took the company a while to rectify that because we had such a strong hiring pipeline for engineers and not a strong hiring pipeline for managers.I know there's, like, a lot of people saying companies like, “Oh, man, these middle managers and TPM's all they do is, like, create work for, like, real people.” No. They—I get to see the world without them. Absolutely they had enormous value. [laugh]. They are worth their weight in gold; there's a reason they're there.And it's not to say you can't have bad ones who add negative value, but that's also true for engineers, right? I've worked with engineers, too, who also have added negative value, and I had to spend a lot of my time cleaning up their code, right? It's like anything else: You can have good people and bad people. But I wouldn't advocate for no people.Julie: [laugh].Sam: You kind of need humans involved. The thing that was nice about Snap is Snap was a very product-led company, and so we always had an idea of what the product is that we were trying to build. And that was, like, really helpful. I don't know that we had, like, a grand vision for, like, how to make the internet better like Google does, but we definitely had an idea of what we're building and the direction we're moving it in. And it was very much read by Evan Spiegel, who I got to know personally, who spent a lot of time coming down talking to us about the design of the product and working through the details.Or at least, you know, early on, that was the case. Later on, you know, he was busy with other stuff. I guess he's, like, a CEO or something, now.Julie: [laugh].Sam: But yeah, that was very nice. The flip side meant that we under-invested in areas around things like QA and build tools and these other sorts of pieces. And, like, DevOps stuff, absolutely. Snapchat was on an early version of Google Cloud Platform. Actually an early version of something called App Engine.Now, App Engine still exist as a product. It is not the product today that it was back in 2014. I lived through them revving that product, and multiple deprecations and the product I used in 2014 was a disaster and huge pain, and the product they have today is actually semi-reasonable and something I've would use again. And so props to Google Cloud for actually making something nice out of what they had. And I got to know some of their engineers quite well over the—[laugh] my tenure, as Snap was the biggest customer by far.But we offboarded, like, a lot of the DevOps works onto Google-and paid them handsomely for it—and what we found is you kind of get whatever Google feels like level of support, which is not in your control. And when you have 15 engineers, that's totally reasonable, right? Like, if I need to run, like, a million servers and I have 15 engineers, it's great to pay Google SREs to, like, keep track of my million servers. When you have, you know, 1000 engineers though, and Google wants half a billion dollars a year, and you're like, “I can't even get you guys to get my, like, Java version revved, right? I'm still stuck on Java 7, and this Java 8 migration has been going on for two years, right?”Like, it's not a great situation to be in. And Snap, to their credit, eventually did recognize this and invested heavily in a multi-cloud solution, built around Kubernetes—maybe not a surprise to anyone here—and they're still migrating to that, to the best of my knowledge. I don't know. I haven't worked in that company for two years now. But we didn't have those things, and so we had to sort of rebuild at a very, sort of, large scale.And there was a lot of stuff we infrastructure we set up in the early days in, like, 2014, when, like, ah, that's good enough, this, like, janky python script because that's what we had time for, right? Like, I had an intern write a janky Python script that handled a merge queue so that we could get changes in, and that worked really great when there was like, a dozen engineers just, like, throwing changes at it. When there was, like, 500 engineers, that thing resulted in three-day build times, right? And I remember, uh, what was this… this was 2016… it was the winter of either 2016 to 2017 or 2017 to 2018 where, like, they're like, “Sam, we need to, like, rebuild the system because, like, 72 hours is not an acceptable time to merge code that's already been approved.” And we got down to 14 minutes.So, we were able to do it, right, but you need to be willing to invest the time. And when you're strapped for resources, it's very easy to overlook things like dev tools and DevOps because they're things that you only notice when they're not working, right? But the flip side is, they're also the areas where you can invest and get ten times the output of your investment, right? Because if I put five people on this, like, build system problem, right, all of a sudden, I've got, like, 100x build performance across my, like, 500 engineers. That's an enormous value proposition for your money.And in general, I think, you know, if you're a company that's going through a lot of growth, you have to make sure you are investing there, even if it looks like you don't need it just yet. Because first of all, you do, you're just not seeing it, but second of all, you're going to need it, right? Like, that's what the growth means: You are going to need it. And at Snap I think the policy was 10% of engineering resources were on security—which is maybe reasonable or not; I don't know. I didn't work on security—but it might also be the case that you want maybe 5 to 10% of the engineering resources working on your internal tooling.Because that is something that, first of all, great value for your money, but second of all, it's one of those things where all of a sudden, you're going to find yourself staring at a $500 million bill from Google Cloud or AWS, and be like, “How did we do this to ourselves?” Right? Like, that's really expensive for the amount of money we're making. I don't know what the actual bill number is, but you know, it's something crazy like that. And then you have to be like, “Okay, how do we get everything off of Google Cloud and onto AWS because it's cheaper.” And that was a—[laugh] that was one heck of a migration, I'll tell you.Julie: So, you've walked us through AWS and through Snap, and so far, we've learned important things such as no data centers within data centers—Sam: [laugh].Julie: —people are important, and you should focus on your tooling, your internal tooling. So, as you mentioned before, you know, now you're at Gremlin. What are you excited about?Sam: Yeah. I think there's, like, a lot of value that Gremlin provides to our customers. I don't know, one of the things I liked working at Snapchat is, like, I don't particularly like Facebook. I have not liked Facebook since, like, 2007, or something. And there's, like, a real, like, almost, like, parasitic aspect to it.In my work at Snap, I felt a lot better. It's easy to say something pithy, like, “Oh, you're just sending disappearing photos.” Like, yeah, but, like, it's a way people stay connected that's not terrible the way that Facebook is, right? I felt better about my contribution.And so similarly, like, I think Gremlin was another area where, like, I feel a lot be—like, I'm actually helping my customers. I'm not just, like, helping them down a poor path. There's some, like, maybe ongoing conversation around if you worked in Amazon, like, what happens in FCs and stuff? I didn't work in that part of the company, but like, I think if I had to go back and work there, that's also something that might, you know, weigh on me to some degree. And so one of the—I think one of the nice things about working at Gremlin is, like, I feel good about my work if that makes sense.And I didn't expect it. I mean, that's not why I picked the job, but I do like that. That is something that makes me feel good. I don't know how much I can talk about upcoming product stuff. Obviously, I'm very excited about upcoming product stuff that we're building because, like, that's where I spend all my time. I'm, like, “Oh, there's, like, this thing and this thing, and that's going to let people do this. And then you can do this other thing.”I will tell you, like, I do—like, when I conceptualize product changes, I spend a lot of time thinking, how is this going to impact individual engineers? How is this going to impact their management chain, and their, like, senior leadership director, VP, C-suite level? And, like, how do we empower engineers to, like, show that senior leadership that work is getting done? Because I do think it's hard—this is true across DevOps and it's not unique to Chaos Engineering—I do think it's hard sometimes to show that you're making progress in, like, the outages you avoided, right? And, like, that is where I spend, like, a lot of my thought time, like, how do I like help doing that?And, like, if you're someone who's, like, a champion, you're, you're like, “Come on, everyone, we should be doing Chaos Engineering.” Like, how do I get people invested? You care, you're at this company, you've convinced them to purchase Gremlin, like, how do I get other engineers excited about Chaos Engineering? I think, like, giving you tools to help with that is something that, I would hope, I mean, I don't know what's actually implemented just yet, but I'd hope is somewhere on our roadmap. Because that's the thing like, that I personally think a lot about.I'll tell you another story. This was also when I was at Amazon. I had this buddy, we'll call him Zach because that's his name, and he was really big on testing. And he had all this stuff about, like, testing pyramid, if you're familiar with, like, programming unit testing, integration testing, it's all that stuff. And he worked as a team—a sister team to mine—and a lot engineers did not care heavily about testing. [laugh].And he used to try to, like, get people to, like, do things and talk about it and stuff. They just, like, didn't care, even slightly. And I also kind of didn't care, so I wasn't any better, but something I did one day on my team is I was like, “You know, somebody else at Amazon”—because Amazon invested very heavily in developer tools—had built some way that was very easy to publish metrics into our primary metrics thing about code coverage. And so I just tossed in all the products for my team, and that published a bunch of metrics. And then I made a bunch of graphs on a wiki somewhere that pulled live data, and we could see code coverage.And then I, like, showed it in, like, a team meeting one week, and everyone was like, “Oh, that's kind of interesting.” And then people were like, “Oh, I'm surprised that's so low.” And they found, like, some low-hanging fruit and they started moving it up. And then, like, the next year bi-weekly with our skip-level, like, they showed the progress, he's like, “Oh, this it's really good.” You made, like, a lot of progress in the code coverage.And then, like, all of a sudden, like, when they're inviting new changes, they start adding testing, or, like, all sudden, like, code coverage, just seemed ratchet up. Or some [unintelligible 00:30:51] would be like, “Hey, I have this thing so that our builds would fail now if code coverage went down.” Right? Like, all of a sudden, it became, sort of like, part of the culture to do this, to add coverage. I remember—and they, like, sort of pollinated to the sister teams.I remember Zach coming by my desk one day. He's like, “I'm so angry. I've been trying for six months to get people to care. And you do some dumb graphs and our wiki.” And I'm like, “I mean, I don't know. I was just, like, an idea I had.” Right? Like, it wasn't, like, a conscious, like, “I'm going to change the culture moment,” it was very much, like, “I don't know, just thought this was interesting.”And I don't know if you know who [John Rauser](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL2WDcNu_3A) is, but he's got this great talk at Velocity back in 2010, maybe 2011, where he talks about culture change and he talks about how humans do change culture readily—and, you know, Velocity is very much about availability and latency—and what we need to do in the world of DevOps and reliability in general is actually we have to change the culture of the companies we're at. Because you're never going to succeed, just, like, here emoting adding chaos engineering into your environment. I mean because one day, you're going to leave that company, or you're going to give up and there'll be some inertia that'll carry things forward, but eventually, people will stop doing it and the pendulum will swing back the other way, and the systems will become unreliable again. But if you can build a culture, if you can make people care—of course, it's the hardest thing to do in engineering, like, make other engineers care about something—but if you can do it, then it will become sort of self-perpetuating, right, and it becomes, like, a sort of like a stand-alone complex. And then it doesn't matter if it's just you anymore.And as an engineer, I'm always looking for ways to, like, remove myself as a critical dependency, right? Like, if I could work myself out of a job, thank you, because, like, [laugh] yeah, I can go work on something else now, right? Like, I can be done, right? Because, like, as we all know, you're never done with software, right? There's always a next version; there's always, like, another piece; you're always, like, migrating to a new version, right? It never really ends, but if you can build something that's more than just yourself—I feel like this is, like, a line from Batman or something. “Mr. Wayne, if you can become a legend”—right? Like, you'd be something more yourself? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not a great delivery like Liam Neeson. But yeah.Jason: I like what you said, though. You talked about, like, culture change, but I think a big thing of what you did is exposing what you're measuring or starting to measure this thing, right? Because there's always a statement of, “You can't improve until you measure it,” right? And so I think simply because we're engineers, exposing that metric and understanding where we're at is a huge motivator, and can be—and obviously, in your case—enough to change that culture is just, like, knowing about this and seeing that metric. And part of the whole DevOps philosophy is the idea that people want to do the best job that they can, and so exposing that data of, “Look, we're not doing very well on this,” is often enough. Just knowing that you're not doing well, is often enough to motivate you to do better.Sam: Yeah, one of the things we used to say at Amazon is, “If you can't measure it, it didn't happen.” And like, it was very true, right? I mean, that was a large organization that moves slowly, but, like, it was very true that if you couldn't show a bunch of graphs or reports somewhere, oftentimes people would just pretend like it never happened.Julie: So, I do you want to bring it back just a little bit, in the last couple of minutes that we have, to Pokémon. So, you play Pokémon Go?Sam: I do. I do play Pokémon Go.Julie: And then how do people find you on Pokémon Go?Sam: My trainer—Jason: Also, I'm going to say, Sam, you need to open my gifts. I'm in Estonia.Sam: [laugh]. It's true. I don't open gifts. Here's the problem. I have no space because I have, like, all these items from all the, like, quests and stuff they've done recently.They're like, “Oh, you got to, like, make enough space, or you could pay us $2 and we'll give you more space.” I'm like, “I'm not paying $2,” right? Like—Jason: [laugh].Sam: And so, I just, like, I have to go in every now and then and, like, just, like, delete a bunch of, like, Poké Balls or something. Like maybe I don't need 500 Poké Balls. That's fair.Jason: I mean, I'm sitting on 628 Ultra Balls right now. [laugh].Sam: Yeah. Well, maybe you don't need—Jason: It's community day on Sunday.Sam: I know, I know. I'm excited for it. I have a trainer code. If you need my trainer to find me on Pokémon Go, it's 1172-0487-4013. And you can add me, and I'll add you back because, like, I don't care; I love playing Pokémon, and I'd play every day. [laugh].Julie: And I feel it would be really rude to leave Jason out of this since he plays Pokémon a lot. Jason, do you want to share your…Jason: I'm not sharing my trainer code because at this point, I'm nearing the limit, and I have all of these Best Friends that I'm actually Lucky Friends with, and I have no idea how to contact them to actually make Lucky trades. And I know that some of them are, like, halfway around the world, so if you are in the Canary Islands and you are a friend of mine on Pokémon Go, please reach out to me on Twitter. I'm @gitbisect on Twitter. Message me so that we can actually, like, figure out who you are. Because at some point, I will go to the Canary Islands because they are beautiful.Sam: Also, you can get those, like, sweet Estonia gifts, what will give you those eggs from Estonia, and then when you trade them you get huge mileage on the trades. I don't know if this is a thing you [unintelligible 00:36:13], Jason, but, like, my wife and I both compete for who can get the most mileage on the trip. And of course, we traded each other but that's, like, a zero-sum game, right? And so the total mileage on trades is a big thing in my house.Jason: Well, the next time we get together, I've got stuff from New Zealand, so we can definitely get some mileage there.Sam: Excellent.Julie: Well, this is excellent. I feel like we have learned so much on this episode of Break Things on Purpose, from obviously the most important information out there—Pokémon—but back to some of the history of Nintendo and Amazon and Snap and all of it. And so Sam, I just want to thank you for being on with us today. And folks again, if you want to be Sam's friend on Pokémon Go—I'm sorry, I don't really know how it works. I don't even know if that's the right term—Sam: It's fine.Julie: You've got his code. [laugh]. And thanks again for being on our podcast.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called, “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

About SamA 25-year veteran of the Silicon Valley and Seattle technology scenes, Sam Ramji led Kubernetes and DevOps product management for Google Cloud, founded the Cloud Foundry foundation, has helped build two multi-billion dollar markets (API Management at Apigee and Enterprise Service Bus at BEA Systems) and redefined Microsoft's open source and Linux strategy from “extinguish” to “embrace”.He is nerdy about open source, platform economics, middleware, and cloud computing with emphasis on developer experience and enterprise software. He is an advisor to multiple companies including Dell Technologies, Accenture, Observable, Fletch, Orbit, OSS Capital, and the Linux Foundation.Sam received his B.S. in Cognitive Science from UC San Diego, the home of transdisciplinary innovation, in 1994 and is still excited about artificial intelligence, neuroscience, and cognitive psychology.Links: DataStax: https://www.datastax.com Sam Ramji Twitter: https://twitter.com/sramji Open||Source||Data: https://www.datastax.com/resources/podcast/open-source-data Screaming in the Cloud Episode 243 with Craig McLuckie: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/innovating-in-the-cloud-with-craig-mcluckie/ Screaming in the Cloud Episode 261 with Jason Warner: https://www.lastweekinaws.com/podcast/screaming-in-the-cloud/what-github-can-give-to-microsoft-with-jason-warner/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Redis, the company behind the incredibly popular open source database that is not the bind DNS server. If you're tired of managing open source Redis on your own, or you're using one of the vanilla cloud caching services, these folks have you covered with the go to manage Redis service for global caching and primary database capabilities; Redis Enterprise. Set up a meeting with a Redis expert during re:Invent, and you'll not only learn how you can become a Redis hero, but also have a chance to win some fun and exciting prizes. To learn more and deploy not only a cache but a single operational data platform for one Redis experience, visit redis.com/hero. Thats r-e-d-i-s.com/hero. And my thanks to my friends at Redis for sponsoring my ridiculous non-sense.  Corey: Are you building cloud applications with a distributed team? Check out Teleport, an open source identity-aware access proxy for cloud resources. Teleport provides secure access to anything running somewhere behind NAT: SSH servers, Kubernetes clusters, internal web apps and databases. Teleport gives engineers superpowers! Get access to everything via single sign-on with multi-factor. List and see all SSH servers, kubernetes clusters or databases available to you. Get instant access to them all using tools you already have. Teleport ensures best security practices like role-based access, preventing data exfiltration, providing visibility and ensuring compliance. And best of all, Teleport is open source and a pleasure to use.Download Teleport at https://goteleport.com. That's goteleport.com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and recurring effort that this show goes to is to showcase people in their best light. Today's guest has done an awful lot: he led Kubernetes and DevOps Product Management for Google Cloud; he founded the Cloud Foundry Foundation; he set open-source strategy for Microsoft in the naughts; he advises companies including Dell, Accenture, the Linux Foundation; and tying all of that together, it's hard to present a lot of that in a great light because given my own proclivities, that sounds an awful lot like a personal attack. Sam Ramji is the Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax. Sam, thank you for joining me, and it's weird when your resume starts to read like, “Oh, I hate all of these things.”Sam: [laugh]. It's weird, but it's true. And it's the only life I could have lived apparently because here I am. Corey, it's a thrill to meet you. I've been an admirer of your public speaking, and public tweeting, and your writing for a long time.Corey: Well, thank you. The hard part is getting over the voice saying don't do it because it turns out that there's no real other side of public shutting up, which is something that I was never good at anyway, so I figured I'd lean into it. And again, I mean, that the sense of where you have been historically in terms of your career not, “Look what you've done,” which is a subtext that I could be accused of throwing in sometimes.Sam: I used to hear that a lot from my parents, actually.Corey: Oh, yeah. That was my name growing up. But you've done a lot of things, and you've transitioned from notable company making significant impact on the industry, to the next one, to the next one. And you've been in high-flying roles, doing lots of really interesting stuff. What's the common thread between all those things?Sam: I'm an intensely curious person, and the thing that I'm most curious about is distributed cognition. And that might not be obvious from what you see is kind of the… Lego blocks of my career, but I studied cognitive science in college when that was not really something that was super well known. So, I graduated from UC San Diego in '94 doing neuroscience, artificial intelligence, and psychology. And because I just couldn't stop thinking about thinking; I was just fascinated with how it worked.So, then I wanted to build software systems that would help people learn. And then I wanted to build distributed software systems. And then I wanted to learn how to work with people who were thinking about building the distributed software systems. So, you end up kind of going up this curve of, like, complexity about how do we think? How do we think alone? How do we learn to think? How do we think together?And that's the directed path through my software engineering career, into management, into middleware at BEA, into open-source at Microsoft because that's an amazing demonstration of distributed cognition, how, you know, at the time in 2007, I think, Sourceforge had 100,000 open-source projects, which was, like, mind boggling. Some of them even worked together, but all of them represented these groups of people, flung around the world, collaborating on something that was just fundamentally useful, that they were curious about. Kind of did the same thing into APIs because APIs are an even better way to reuse for some cases than having the source code—at Apigee. And kept growing up through that into, how are we building larger-scale thinking systems like Cloud Foundry, which took me into Google and Kubernetes, and then some applications of that in Autodesk and now DataStax. So, I love building companies. I love helping people build companies because I think business is distributed cognition. So, those businesses that build distributed systems, for me, are the most fascinating.Corey: You were basically handed a heck of a challenge as far as, “Well, help set open-source strategy,” back at Microsoft, in the days where that was a punchline. And credit where due, I have to look at Microsoft of today, and it's not a joke, you can have your arguments about them, but again in those days, a lot of us built our entire personality on hating Microsoft. Some folks never quite evolved beyond that, but it's a new ballgame and it's very clear that the Microsoft of yesteryear and the Microsoft of today are not completely congruent. What was it like at that point understanding that as you're working with open-source communities, you're doing that from a place of employment with a company that was widely reviled in the space.Sam: It was not lost on me. The irony, of course, was that—Corey: Well, thank God because otherwise the question where you would have been, “What do you mean they didn't like us?”Sam: [laugh].Corey: Which, on some levels, like, yeah, that's about the level of awareness I would have expected in that era, but contrary to popular opinion, execs at these companies are not generally oblivious.Sam: Yeah, well, if I'd been clever as a creative humorist, I would have given you that answer instead of my serious answer, but for some reason, my role in life is always to be the straight guy. I used to have Slashdot as my homepage, right? I love when I'd see some conspiracy theory about, you know, Bill Gates dressed up as the Borg, taking over the world. My first startup, actually in '97, was crushed by Microsoft. They copied our product, copied the marketing, and bundled it into Office, so I had lots of reasons to dislike Microsoft.But in 2004, I was recruited into their venture capital team, which I couldn't believe. It was really a place that they were like, “Hey, we could do better at helping startups succeed, so we're going to evangelize their success—if they're building with Microsoft technologies—to VCs, to enterprises, we'll help you get your first big enterprise deal.” I was like, “Man, if I had this a few years ago, I might not be working.” So, let's go try to pay it forward.I ended up in open-source by accident. I started going to these conferences on Software as a Service. This is back in 2005 when people were just starting to light up, like, Silicon Valley Forum with, you know, the CEO of Demandware would talk, right? We'd hear all these different ways of building a new business, and they all kept talking about their tech stack was Linux, Apache, MySQL, and PHP. I went to one eight-hour conference, and Microsoft technologies were mentioned for about 12 seconds in two separate chunks. So, six seconds, he was like, “Oh, and also we really like Microsoft SQL Server for our data layer.”Corey: Oh, Microsoft SQL Server was fantastic. And I know that's a weird thing for people to hear me say, just because I've been renowned recently for using Route 53 as the primary data store for everything that I can. But there was nothing quite like that as far as having multiple write nodes, being able to handle sharding effectively. It was expensive, and you would take a bath on the price come audit time, but people were not rolling it out unaware of those things. This was a trade off that they were making.Oracle has a similar story with databases. It's yeah, people love to talk smack about Oracle and its business practices for a variety of excellent reasons, at least in the database space that hasn't quite made it to cloud yet—knock on wood—but people weren't deploying it because they thought Oracle was warm and cuddly as a vendor; they did it because they can tolerate the rest of it because their stuff works.Sam: That's so well said, and people don't give them the credit that's due. Like, when they built hypergrowth in their business, like… they had a great product; it really worked. They made it expensive, and they made a lot of money on it, and I think that was why you saw MySQL so successful and why, if you were looking for a spec that worked, that you could talk through through an open driver like ODBC or JDBC or whatever, you could swap to Microsoft SQL Server. But I walked out of that and came back to the VC team and said, “Microsoft has a huge problem. This is a massive market wave that's coming. We're not doing anything in it. They use a little bit of SQL Server, but there's nothing else in your tech stack that they want, or like, or can afford because they don't know if their businesses are going to succeed or not. And they're going to go out of business trying to figure out how much licensing costs they would pay to you in order to consider using your software. They can't even start there. They have to start with open-source. So, if you're going to deal with SaaS, you're going to have to have open-source, and get it right.”So, I worked with some folks in the industry, wrote a ten-page paper, sent it up to Bill Gates for Think Week. Didn't hear much back. Bought a new strategy to the head of developer platform evangelism, Sanjay Parthasarathy who suggested that the idea of discounting software to zero for startups, with the hope that they would end up doing really well with it in the future as a Software as a Service company; it was dead on arrival. Dumb idea; bring it back; that actually became BizSpark, the most popular program in Microsoft partner history.And then about three months later, I got a call from this guy, Bill Hilf. And he said, “Hey, this is Bill Hilf. I do open-source at Microsoft. I work with Bill Gates. He sent me your paper. I really like it. Would you consider coming up and having conversation with me because I want you to think about running open-source technology strategy for the company.” And at this time I'm, like, 33 or 34. And I'm like, “Who me? You've got to be joking.” And he goes, “Oh, and also, you'll be responsible for doing quarterly deep technical briefings with Bill… Gates.” I was like, “You must be kidding.” And so of course I had to check it out. One thing led to another and all of a sudden, with not a lot of history in the open-source community but coming in it with a strategist's eye and with a technologist's eye, saying, “This is a problem we got to solve. How do we get after this pragmatically?” And the rest is history, as they say.Corey: I have to say that you are the Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax, and I pull up your website quickly here and a lot of what I tell earlier stage companies is effectively more or less what you have already done. You haven't named yourself after the open-source project that underlies the bones of what you have built so you're not going to wind up in the same glorious challenges that, for example, Elastic or MongoDB have in some ways. You have a pricing page that speaks both to the reality of, “It's two in the morning. I'm trying to get something up and running and I want you the hell out of my way. Just give me something that I can work with a reasonable free tier and don't make me talk to a salesperson.” But also, your enterprise tier is, “Click here to talk to a human being,” which is speaking enterprise slash procurement slash, oh, there will be contract negotiation on these things.It's being able to serve different ends of your market depending upon who it is that encounters you without being off-putting to any of those. And it's deceptively challenging for companies to pull off or get right. So clearly, you've learned lessons by doing this. That was the big problem with Microsoft for the longest time. It's, if I want to use some Microsoft stuff, once you were able to download things from the internet, it changed slightly, but even then it was one of those, “What exactly am I committing to here as far as signing up for this? And am I giving them audit rights into my environment? Is the BSA about to come out of nowhere and hit me with a surprise audit and find out that various folks throughout the company have installed this somewhere and now I owe more than the company's worth?” That was always the haunting fear that companies had back then.These days, I like the approach that companies are taking with the SaaS offering: you pay for usage. On some level, I'd prefer it slightly differently in a pay-per-seat model because at least then you can predict the pricing, but no one is getting surprise submarined with this type of thing on an audit basis, and then they owe damages and payment in arrears and someone has them over a barrel. It's just, “Oh. The bill this month was higher than we expected.” I like that model I think the industry does, too.Sam: I think that's super well said. As I used to joke at BEA Systems, nothing says ‘I love you' to a customer like an audit, right? That's kind of a one-time use strategy. If you're going to go audit licenses to get your revenue in place, you might be inducing some churn there. It's a huge fix for the structural problem in pricing that I think package software had, right?When we looked at Microsoft software versus open-source software, and particularly Windows versus Linux, you would have a structure where sales reps were really compensated to sell as much as possible upfront so they could get the best possible commission on what might be used perpetually. But then if you think about it, like, the boxes in a curve, right, if you do that calculus approximation of a smooth curve, a perpetual software license is a huge box and there's an enormous amount of waste in there. And customers figured out so as soon as you can go to a pay-per-use or pay-as-you-go, you start to smooth that curve, and now what you get is what you deserve, right, as opposed to getting filled with way more cost than you expect. So, I think this model is really super well understood now. Kind of the long run the high point of open-source meets, cloud, meets Software as a Service, you look at what companies like MongoDB, and Confluent, and Elastic, and Databricks are doing. And they've really established a very good path through the jungle of how to succeed as a software company. So, it's still difficult to implement, but there are really world-class guides right now.Corey: Moving beyond where Microsoft was back in the naughts, you were then hired as a VP over at Google. And in that era, the fact that you were hired as a VP at Google is fascinating. They preferred to grow those internally, generally from engineering. So, first question, when you were being hired as a VP in the product org, did they make you solve algorithms on a whiteboard to get there?Sam: [laugh]. They did not. I did have somewhat of an advantage [because they 00:13:36] could see me working pretty closely as the CEO of the Cloud Foundry Foundation. I'd worked closely with Craig McLuckie who notably brought Kubernetes to the world along with Joe Beda, and with Eric Brewer, and a number of others.And he was my champion at Google. He was like, “Look, you know, we need him doing Kubernetes. Let's bring Sam in to do that.” So, that was helpful. I also wrote a [laugh] 2000-word strategy document, just to get some thoughts out of my head. And I said, “Hey, if you like this, great. If you don't throw it away.” So, the interviews were actually very much not solving problems in a whiteboard. There were super collaborative, really excellent conversations. It was slow—Corey: Let's be clear, Craig McLuckie's most notable achievement was being a guest on this podcast back in Episode 243. But I'll say that this is a close second.Sam: [laugh]. You're not wrong. And of course now with Heptio and their acquisition by VMware.Corey: Ehh, they're making money beyond the wildest dreams of avarice, that's all well and good, but an invite to this podcast, that's where it's at.Sam: Well, he should really come on again, he can double down and beat everybody. That can be his landmark achievement, a two-timer on Screaming in [the] Cloud.Corey: You were at Google; you were at Microsoft. These are the big titans of their era, in some respect—not to imply that there has beens; they're bigger than ever—but it's also a more crowded field in some ways. I guess completing the trifecta would be Amazon, but you've had the good judgment never to work there, directly of course. Now they're clearly in your market. You're at DataStax, which is among other things, built on Apache Cassandra, and they launched their own Cassandra service named Keyspaces because no one really knows why or how they name things.And of course, looking under the hood at the pricing model, it's pretty clear that it really is just DynamoDB wearing some Groucho Marx classes with a slight upcharge for API level compatibility. Great. So, I don't see it a lot in the real world and that's fine, but I'm curious as to your take on looking at all three of those companies at different eras. There was always the threat in the open-source world that they are going to come in and crush you. You said earlier that Microsoft crushed your first startup.Google is an interesting competitor in some respects; people don't really have that concern about them. And your job as a Chief Strategy Officer at Amazon is taken over by a Post-it Note that simply says ‘yes' on it because there's nothing they're not going to do, or try, and experiment with. So, from your perspective, if you look at the titans, who is it that you see as the largest competitive threat these days, if that's even a thing?Sam: If you think about Sun Tzu and the Art of War, right—a lot of strategy comes from what we've learned from military environments—fighting a symmetric war, right, using the same weapons and the same army against a symmetric opponent, but having 1/100th of the personnel and 1/100th of the money is not a good plan.Corey: “We're going to lose money, going to be outcompeted; we'll make it up in volume. Oh, by the way, we're also slower than they are.”Sam: [laugh]. So, you know, trying to come after AWS, or Microsoft, or Google as an independent software company, pound-for-pound, face-to-face, right, full-frontal assault is psychotic. What you have to do, I think, at this point is to understand that these are each companies that are much like we thought about Linux, and you know, Macintosh, and Windows as operating systems. They're now the operating systems of the planet. So, that creates some economies of scale, some efficiencies for them. And for us. Look at how cheap object storage is now, right? So, there's never been a better time in human history to create a database company because we can take the storage out of the database and hand it over to Amazon, or Google, or Microsoft to handle it with 13 nines of durability on a constantly falling cost basis.So, that's super interesting. So, you have to prosecute the structure of the world as it is, based on where the giants are and where they'll be in the future. Then you have to turn around and say, like, “What can they never sell?”So, Amazon can never sell something that is standalone, right? They're a parts factory and if you buy into the Amazon-first strategy of cloud computing—which we did at Autodesk when I was VP of cloud platform there—everything is a primitive that works inside Amazon, but they're not going to build things that don't work outside of the Amazon primitives. So, your company has to be built on the idea that there's a set of people who value something that is purpose-built for a particular use case that you can start to broaden out, it's really helpful if they would like it to be something that can help them escape a really valuable asset away from the center of gravity that is a cloud. And that's why data is super interesting. Nobody wakes up in the morning and says, “Boy, I had such a great conversation with Oracle over the last 20 years beating me up on licensing. Let me go find a cloud vendor and dump all of my data in that so they can beat me up for the next 20 years.” Nobody says that.Corey: It's the idea of data portability that drives decision-making, which makes people, of course, feel better about not actually moving in anywhere. But the fact that they're not locked in strategically, in a way that requires a full software re-architecture and data model rewrite is compelling. I'm a big believer in convincing people to make decisions that look a lot like that.Sam: Right. And so that's the key, right? So, when I was at Autodesk, we went from our 100 million dollar, you know, committed spend with 19% discount on the big three services to, like—we started realize when we're going to burn through that, we were spending $60 million or so a year on 20% annual growth as the cloud part of the business grew. Thought, “Okay, let's renegotiate. Let's go and do a $250 million deal. I'm sure they'll give us a much better discount than 19%.” Short story is they came back and said, “You know, we're going to take you from an already generous 19% to an outstanding 22%.” We thought, “Wait a minute, we already talked to Intuit. They're getting a 40% discount on a $400 million spend.”So, you know, math is hard, but, like, 40% minus 22% is 18% times $250 million is a lot of money. So, we thought, “What is going on here?” And we realized we just had no credible threat of leaving, and Intuit did because they had built a cross-cloud capable architecture. And we had not. So, now stepping back into the kind of the world that we're living in 2021, if you're an independent software company, especially if you have the unreasonable advantage of being an open-source software company, you have got to be doing your customers good by giving them cross-cloud capability. It could be simply like the Amdahl coffee cup that Amdahl reps used to put as landmines for the IBM reps, later—I can tell you that story if you want—even if it's only a way to save money for your customer by using your software, when it gets up to tens and hundreds of million dollars, that's a really big deal.But they also know that data is super important, so the option value of being able to move if they have to, that they have to be able to pull that stick, instead of saying, “Nice doggy,” we have to be on their side, right? So, there's almost a detente that we have to create now, as cloud vendors, working in a world that's invented and operated by the giants.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service. Although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLTP and OLAP, don't ask me to ever say those acronyms again, workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora, and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: When we look across the, I guess, the ecosystem as it's currently unfolding, a recurring challenge that I have to the existing incumbent cloud providers is they're great at offering the bricks that you can use to build things, but if I'm starting a company today, I'm not going to look at building it myself out of, “Ooh, I'm going to take a bunch of EC2 instances, or Lambda functions, or popsicles and string and turn it into this thing.” I'm going to want to tie together things that are way higher level. In my own case, now I wind up paying for Retool, which is, effectively, yeah, it runs on some containers somewhere, presumably, I think in Azure, but don't quote me on that. And that's great. Could I build my own thing like that?Absolutely not. I would rather pay someone to tie it together. Same story. Instead of building my own CRM by running some open-source software on an EC2 instance, I wind up paying for Salesforce or Pipedrive or something in that space. And so on, and so forth.And a lot of these companies that I'm doing business with aren't themselves running on top of AWS. But for web hosting, for example; if I look at the reference architecture for a WordPress site, AWS's diagram looks like a punchline. It is incredibly overcomplicated. And I say this as someone who ran large WordPress installations at Media Temple many years ago. Now, I have the good sense to pay WP Engine. And on a monthly basis, I give them money and they make the website work.Sure, under the hood, it's running on top of GCP or AWS somewhere. But I don't have to think about it; I don't have to build this stuff together and think about the backups and the failover strategy and the rest. The website just works. And that is increasingly the direction that business is going; things commoditize over time. And AWS in particular has done a terrible job, in my experience, of differentiating what it is they're doing in the language that their customers speak.They're great at selling things to existing infrastructure engineers, but folks who are building something from scratch aren't usually in that cohort. It's a longer story with time and, “Well, we're great at being able to sell EC2 instances by the gallon.” Great. Are you capable of going to a small doctor's office somewhere in the American Midwest and offering them an end-to-end solution for managing patient data? Of course not. You can offer them a bunch of things they can tie together to something that will suffice if they all happen to be software engineers, but that's not the opportunity.So instead, other companies are building those solutions on top of AWS, capturing the margin. And if there's one thing guaranteed to keep Amazon execs awake at night, it's the idea of someone who isn't them making money somehow somewhere, so I know that's got to rankle them, but they do not speak that language. At all. Longer-term, I only see that as a more and more significant crutch. A long enough timeframe here, we're talking about them becoming the Centurylinks of the world, the tier one backbone provider that everyone uses, but no one really thinks about because they're not a household name.Sam: That is a really thoughtful perspective. I think the diseconomies of scale that you're pointing to start to creep in, right? Because when you have to sell compute units by the gallon, right, you can't care if it's a gallon of milk, [laugh] or a gallon of oil, or you know, a gallon of poison. You just have to keep moving it through. So, the shift that I think they're going to end up having to make pragmatically, and you start to see some signs of it, like, you know, they hired but could not retain Matt [Acey 00:23:48]. He did an amazing job of bringing them to some pragmatic realization that they need to partner with open-source, but more broadly, when I think about Microsoft in the 2000s as they were starting to learn their open-source lessons, we were also being able to pull on Microsoft's deep competency and partners. So, most people didn't do the math on this. I was part of the field governance council so I understood exactly how the Microsoft business worked to the level that I was capable. When they had $65 billion in revenue, they produced $24 billion in profit through an ecosystem that generated $450 billion in revenue. So, for every dollar Microsoft made, it was $8 to partners. It was a fundamentally platform-shaped business, and that was how they're able to get into doctors offices in the Midwest, and kind of fit the curve that you're describing of all of those longtail opportunities that require so much care and that are complex to prosecute. These solved for their diseconomies of scale by having 1.2 million partner companies. So, will Amazon figure that out and will they hire, right, enough people who've done this before from Microsoft to become world-class in partnering, that's kind of an exercise left to the [laugh] reader, right? Where will that go over time? But I don't see another better mathematical model for dealing with the diseconomies of scale you have when you're one of the very largest providers on the planet.Corey: The hardest problem as I look at this is, at some point, you hit a point of scale where smaller things look a lot less interesting. I get that all the time when people say, “Oh, you fix AWS bills, aren't you missing out by not targeting Google bills and Azure bills as well?” And it's, yeah. I'm not VC-backed. It turns out that if I limit the customer base that I can effectively service to only AWS customers, yeah turns out, I'm not going to starve anytime soon. Who knew? I don't need to conquer the world and that feels increasingly antiquated, at least going by the stories everyone loves to tell.Sam: Yeah, it's interesting to see how cloud makes strange bedfellows, right? We started seeing this in, like, 2014, 2015, weird partnerships that you're like, “There's no way this would happen.” But the cloud economics which go back to utilization, rather than what it used to be, which was software lock-in, just changed who people were willing to hang out with. And now you see companies like Databricks going, you know, we do an amazing amount of business, effectively competing with Amazon, selling Spark services on top of predominantly Amazon infrastructure, and everybody seems happy with it. So, there's some hint of a new sensibility of what the future of partnering will be. We used to call it coopetition a long time ago, which is kind of a terrible word, but at least it shows that there's some nuance in you can't compete with everybody because it's just too hard.Corey: I wish there were better ways of articulating these things because it seems from the all the outside world, you have companies like Amazon and Microsoft and Google who go and build out partner networks because they need that external accessibility into various customer profiles that they can't speak to super well themselves, but they're also coming out with things that wind up competing directly or indirectly, with all of those partners at the same time. And I don't get it. I wish that there were smarter ways to do it.Sam: It is hard to even talk about it, right? One of the things that I think we've learned from philosophy is if we don't have a word for it, we can't be intelligent about it. So, there's a missing semantics here for being able to describe the complexity of where are you partnering? Where are you competing? Where are you differentiating? In an ecosystem, which is moving and changing.I tend to look at the tools of game theory for this, which is to look at things as either, you know, nonzero-sum games or zero-sum games. And if it's a nonzero-sum game, which I think are the most interesting ones, can you make it a positive sum game? And who can you play positive-sum games with? An organization as big as Amazon, or as big as Microsoft, or even as big as Google isn't ever completely coherent with itself. So, thinking about this as an independent software company, it doesn't matter if part of one of these hyperscalers has a part of their business that competes with your entire business because your business probably drives utilization of a completely different resource in their company that you can partner within them against them, effectively. Right?For example, Cassandra is an amazingly powerful but demanding workload on Kubernetes. So, there's a lot of Cassandra on EKS. You grow a lot of workload, and EKS business does super well. Does that prevent us from working with Amazon because they have Dynamo or because they have Keyspaces? Absolutely not, right?So, this is when those companies get so big that they are almost their own forest, right, of complexity, you can kind of get in, hang out, do well, and pretty much never see the competitive product, unless you're explicitly looking for it, which I think is a huge danger for us as independent software companies. And I would say this to anybody doing strategy for an organization like this, which is, don't obsess over the tiny part of their business that competes with yours, and do not pay attention to any of the marketing that they put out that looks competitive with what you have. Because if you can't figure out how to make a better product and sell it better to your customers as a single purpose corporation, you have bigger problems.Corey: I want to change gears slightly to something that's probably a fair bit more insulting, but that's okay. We're going to roll with it. That seems to be the theme of this episode. You have been, in effect, a CIO a number of times at different companies. And if we take a look at the typical CIO tenure, industry-wide, it's not long; it approaches the territory from an executive perspective of, “Be sure not to buy green bananas. You might not be here by the time they ripen.” And I'm wondering what it is that drives that and how you make a mark in a relatively short time frame when you're providing inputs and deciding on strategy, and those decisions may not bear fruit for years.Sam: CIO used to—we used say it stood for ‘Career Is Over' because the tenure is so short. I think there's a couple of reasons why it's so short. And I think there's a way I believe you can have impact in a short amount of time. I think the reason that it's been short is because people aren't sure what they want the CIO role to be.Do they want it to be a glorified finance person who's got a lot of data processing experience, but now really has got, you know, maybe even an MBA in finance, but is not focusing on value creation? Do they want it to be somebody who's all-singing, all-dancing Chief Data Officer with a CTO background who did something amazing and solved a really hard problem? The definition of success is difficult. Often CIOs now also have security under them, which is literally a job I would never ever want to have. Do security for a public corporation? Good Lord, that's a way to lose most of your life. You're the only executive other than the CEO that the board wants to hear from. Every sing—Corey: You don't sleep; you wait, in those scenarios. And oh, yeah, people joke about ablative CSOs in those scenarios. Yeah, after SolarWinds, you try and get an ablative intern instead, but those don't work as well. It's a matter of waiting for an inevitability. One of the things I think is misunderstood about management broadly, is that you are delegating work, but not the responsibility. The responsibility rests with you.So, when companies have these statements blaming some third-party contractor, it's no, no, no. I'm dealing with you. You were the one that gave my data to some sketchy randos. It is your responsibility that data has now been compromised. And people don't want to hear that, but it's true.Sam: I think that's absolutely right. So, you have this high risk, medium reward, very fungible job definition, right? If you ask all of the CIO's peers what their job is, they'll probably all tell you something different that represents their wish list. The thing that I learned at Autodesk, I was only there for 15 months, but we established a fundamental transformation of the work of how cloud platform is done at the company that's still in place a couple years later.You have to realize that you're a change agent, right? You're actually being hired to bring in the bulk of all the different biases and experiences you have to solve a problem that is not working, right? So, when I got to Autodesk, they didn't even know what their uptime was. It took three months to teach the team how to measure the uptime. Turned out the uptime was 97.7% for the cloud, for the world's largest engineering software company.That is 200 hours a year of unplanned downtime, right? That is not good. So, a complete overhaul [laugh] was needed. Understanding that as a change agent, your half-life is 12 to 18 months, you have to measure success not on tenure, but on your ability to take good care of the patient, right? It's going to be a lot of pain, you're going to work super hard, you're going to have to build trust with everyone, and then people are still going to hate you at the end. That is something you just have to kind of take on.As a friend of mine, Jason Warner joined Redpoint Ventures recently, he said this when he was the CTO of GitHub: “No one is a villain in their own story.” So, you realize, going into a big organization, people are going to make you a villain, but you still have to do incredibly thoughtful, careful work, that's going to take care of them for a long time to come. And those are the kinds of CIOs that I can relate to very well.Corey: Jason is great. You're name-dropping all the guests we've had. My God, keep going. It's a hard thing to rationalize and wrap heads around. It's one of those areas where you will not be measured during your tenure in the role, in some respects. And, of course, that leads to the cynical perspective as well, where well, someone's not going to be here long and if they say, “Yeah, we're just going to keep being stewards of the change that's already underway,” well, that doesn't look great, so quick, time to do a cloud migration, or a cloud repatriation, or time to roll something else out. A bit of a different story.Sam: One of the biggest challenges is how do you get the hearts and the minds of the people who are in the organization when they are no fools, and their expectation is like, “Hey, this company's been around for decades, and we go through cloud leaders or CIOs, like Wendy's goes through hamburgers.” They could just cloud-wash, right, or change-wash all their language. They could use the new language to describe the old thing because all they have to do is get through the performance review and outwait you. So, there's always going to be a level of defection because it's hard to change; it's hard to think about new things.So, the most important thing is how do you get into people's hearts and minds and enable them to believe that the best thing they could do for their career is to come along with the change? And I think that was what we ended up getting right in the Autodesk cloud transformation. And that requires endless optimism, and there's no room for cynicism because the cynicism is going to creep in around the edges. So, what I found on the job is, you just have to get up every morning and believe everything is possible and transmit that belief to everybody.So, if it seems naive or ingenuous, I think that doesn't matter as long as you can move people's hearts in each conversation towards, like, “Oh, this person cares about me. They care about a good outcome from me. I should listen a little bit more and maybe make a 1% change in what I'm doing.” Because 1% compounded daily for a year, you can actually get something done in the lifetime of a CIO.Corey: And I think that's probably a great place to leave it. If people want to learn more about what you're up to, how you think about these things, how you view the world, where can they find you?Sam: You can find me on Twitter, I'm @sramji, S-R-A-M-J-I, and I have a podcast that I host called Open||Source||Datawhere I invite innovators, data nerds, computational networking nerds to hang out and explain to me, a software programmer, what is the big world of open-source data all about, what's happening with machine learning, and what would it be like if you could put data in a container, just like you could put code in a container, and how might the world change? So, that's Open||Source||Data podcast.Corey: And we'll of course include links to that in the [show notes 00:35:58]. Thanks so much for your time. I appreciate it.Sam: Corey, it's been a privilege. Thank you so much for having me.Corey: Likewise. Sam Ramji, Chief Strategy Officer at DataStax. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me exactly which item in Sam's background that I made fun of is the place that you work at.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Aah, Hunted. The truth of John's final order to Dean finally comes out, and this episode goes to prove exactly why it took him so long to tell Sam. Their behaviors and actions in this episode, now that I'm really thinking about it, kind of set the groundwork for my tag sam sympathizes and Dean empathizes, even if the first post in that tag is my rant about 9.14... (i just reread that post and it goes a long way to explaining my thoughts about these two morons and their disgustingly unhealthy codependency, so it's worth a read if for nothing else than to understand the pov from which i talk about them and the show). Gordon Walker returns to again be humiliatingly bested by Sam and Dean, and we learn Jo has chosen to go out hunting on her own. So it's not all just miscommunication and tantrums. :'D Things referenced in this week's episode: The Superwiki page for this episode My tag for this episode specifically this post and this one Casting sides for Ava Wilson And while we're here, the ONE significant bit in this script that didn't make it into the episode (the show and this podcast both lol...) is a little bit that would seem to provide motivation for Ava to ditch out on her fiancée and dive headfirst into the demon army hunger games, thus giving her disappearance at the end of this episode a more powerful ambiguous possible meaning. As aired, the episode leaves us with the assumption that Ava was content to return to her old life, eager to get back to her little bubble of personal happiness, but this one tiny bit of the casting sides script sheds just the tiniest bit of doubt that that was actually the case. This is right after they steal Scott's psych files. The scene as aired cuts right after Ava says, “I'm awesome!” Which is where this bit of the script picks up: [Sam looks up at Ava. She's giddy, grinning from ear to ear. SAM: You're serious? AVA: Oh my god, I felt like I was in “The Sting.” That was the most fun I've had in my LIFE! Sam raises an eyebrow. SAM: Huh. AVA: What? SAM: Nothing. It's just... you're getting married in two months, and THIS is the most fun you've ever had? Ava's smile fades. Oh shit, he's right.] Kinda makes her look like she's about to seriously reevaluate her entire life, giving credence to the read that maybe she was in a bit of a spiral, making her even more vulnerable to taking Azazel up on the whole Demon Powers thing we discover about her at the end of the season. But it was cut... Alrighty then! A final apology for just how long this episode ran (my goal is always to keep them under 100 minutes, and I squeaked this one in under the wire, even after cutting about 40 minutes from it >.>) --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/spngeorg/support

Sam Heath and I worked together at McKinsey many many years ago. He is now responsible for marketing Tim Horton's in Canada (where it is by far the largest quick service restaurant chain), and Timmie's fledging business of selling its product in grocery stores. Last year, out of nowhere, Sam's heart stopped and he “died”. We explore how that event affected him and his overall career in this episode. Next week we dive into Tim Horton's - both the stores and the CPG products - and how he is growing the two inter-related businesses. You can also listen to these interviews in your podcast player of choice: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed (for premium episodes).Sponsor MessageGet paid for your feedback, join Wynter's research panelWant to give back to the community while having a low-key side hustle to fund your habit? Provide feedback on product messaging for industry-leading B2B companies, be compensated every time you do it ($15-$50 per survey). Takes ~10-15 min to take one survey, low-key time commitment.Transcript:Edward: My guest today is Sam Heath, head of retail for Restaurant Brands International. That's the CPG group for Tim Hortons. Today, we cover Sam's path to overseeing the restaurant chains, the entire CPG business—Brown, McKinsey, OLG, Burger King, and Tim Hortons. I worked with Sam when we were both at McKinsey Canada. I'm excited to chat with him today. Sam, in 2015, you were the Senior Director of Innovation for Burger King, but then you left that to run all of marketing for Tim Hortons Canada. You've never had a marketing title before. How exactly did you get that role? How did you jump from running innovation to running marketing? Sam: At the time, Burger King was a little bit crazy in a way that I describe match my type of crazy. They took people that had done well in whatever roles that they'd had and gave them more stuff to go do. I'd look at marketing. I've done analytics. I've done other things like that, but I'd never done the actual direct-to-consumer go get impressions, sell the product, sell the brand marketing. It was a really pretty big jump. It was taken by the people I work for on faith that I could do a good job at it. Edward:At that time, Burger King owned Tim Hortons. It was one organization.Sam: When I joined, it was just Burger King, but when they moved me up, it was about a year after the merger had happened. Edward: You had delivered for them around innovation. They said, hey, we trust you to run innovations. Now, we're going to trust you to run marketing. Sam: For the most iconic brand in all of Canada, yes. Go from this team of six people that are sampling hamburgers in the test kitchen. Why don't you take over this team of 70 with a $300 million marketing budget up in Canada?Edward: Why did they think you were capable of doing that? I know you're capable of doing that, but why did they think you were capable of pulling that off? That seems like a big risk. Sam: It is a big risk, but it was taken by people who had taken risks like that at Burger King and seen them paid off. They also were willing to replace me if it didn't look like it was working.Edward: You said they took risks like that before with you, or are they just risk-takers in general?Sam: Just risk-taking in general. It was very much the culture of the organization. This was a bunch of people who looked at Burger King and said, this is a good brand—it's just clearly not doing well back in 2011—bought it and said, we need to change everything to turn this around. They went from a 300-person organization in 2011 when they acquired Burger King, I think about 20 of those people were left when I had joined 2½ years later.Edward: When that opportunity came up, did you put yourself forward for it, or did they come to you and say, hey, we have these gaps. Sam, can you step into it?Sam: It was very much the second. They said, we have this gap. The semi-annual upside is what's happening. I got invited there under the pretense of making a presentation on something else. When I met with the President, Tim Horton, he said, congratulations, we've got a new role for you. It was a jump of a couple of levels, at least, and an order of magnitude more responsibility.Edward: What do you think when you do that? Did you think you had the marketing skills to do this? Did you think you're going to figure it out as you go along? What was going through your mind?Sam: I've always been interested with everything that's going on around me. It's not like I was ignoring the media advice and the creative that was happening while I was designing hamburgers or working on pricing. I just liked to see how things plug together and organize, and I trusted myself to learn the pieces that I didn't know. Also, as you get more senior, you trust yourself not to need all the details and build a team that's capable of filling in for your own gaps. Edward: What skills did you think you were missing going in? What did you think that, hey, these are the things I need to figure out fast if I'm going to be successful on this job?Sam: Honestly, all the pieces that people traditionally think about as marketing—creative review, creative design, how do you translate what the brand stands for into what you're actually saying in the advertising, going from overall marketing strategy down to campaign, sliding down to briefs, down to approvals of the creative that's going out on television, digital, and other places.Edward: Now you think you know what you don't know. How do you go about getting those skills? What did you actually do to be ready?Sam: The previous CMO did a great job of setting me up for that. I had his team to rely on. Clearly, Tim Hortons was a brand that had had a positive store sale count for over 20 years. They had a team that knew how to do this. Just being gentle and being careful. Just being given a job doesn't mean you need to change anything. Often, you're a caretaker for what came before. It's a mistake marketers make to say that, well, I'm here now. I need to change everything. Rule number one should be first, do no harm.Edward: It's interesting. Oftentimes, when things are going well, that's not when they replace the head of marketing. Here's a place where they replaced the head of marketing. They brought you in but things were already going really well. It feels like that's a time when you hire someone who is a caretaker marketer, but you're in a place where they brought in somebody who wasn't even a marketer at all. That almost feels like they want to shake things up, but in this case, they didn't want that. Sam: There was, again, that culture piece from Burger King of risk-takers, people who want to be bold and change things up. They wanted to put that culture in place at Tim Hortons. They wanted to maintain the results but still move over to what is now the RBI culture of being a bit more bold and taking a few more risks. Ultimately, if you look at the performance of Tim Hortons in the few years after that happened, there was a bit of a stumble. It was a bit of a mismatch for the brand. We can talk about strategically, whether that was the right choice, but that's the position that I was placed in.Edward: That's interesting. I'm thinking about you, particularly, rather than the company. How do you think about changing things up and making things better when you don't have a lot of expertise? You're reliant on the team because they're the experts on this, but at the same time, they hired you on to change things. How do you make those changes without messing things up?Sam: If you have learned how to do a new job enough times, you start to get an idea of what it feels like to learn a new job. You know that there is a structure that you're trying to understand, a set of processes, a set of routines, and things that are done for particular reasons. You have an idea of what that wheel looks like once you do understand it as you're trying to figure out. Taking that meta approach to learning a new job while trying not to disturb things, what I try to bring to that was I like to measure everything. I like to have a bottom-up roadmap or scorecard of how things fit together so that we can see whether things are going well or not. Often, that type of high-level organization, that connective tissue that plugs together all the little bits and pieces that marketers are doing every day, every week, every month, that I found is where I can usually add value and help people see what they're doing better.Edward: I want to go back and talk a little bit about the path that got you there. What were you passionate about when you were 12–14 years old?Sam: I was passionate about Space Lego and role-playing games, whether computer games or specifically, Dungeons & Dragons. Edward: Do you think diving into Lego, diving into D&D affect your later life at all? Did you develop skills there that play out today or was it a one-off and it didn't really matter? Sam: I'm not sure that I developed skills during Lego and D&D that changed me. I think it's more that I chose the things then that I liked doing and I honed skills that I may have already had. Lego is a lot of organization, seeing how things get put together, and being patient as you meticulously follow these rules to achieve a great product. D&D is just a really interesting game. It lets you explore everything from how rules create conduct in the world to all sorts of other things that are useful for managing around the management table. Edward: Let's go forward a little bit and talk about your first job. In your first job, you were a bike courier? Sam: Pretty much, yes.Edward: Talk to me a little bit of what you learned as a bike courier and how that affected things later. Sam: First, just to set the stage, in the 90s, there were a lot more bike couriers hopping around than there are now. You've probably seen a few in cities but they have largely been replaced by Adobe Acrobat, esigning, and things. There were hundreds in Vancouver. Edward: This was not a food delivery. You aren't Postmates of the 1990s?Sam: No. I was doing bank deposits, getting documents signed, dropping off documents to be signed, everything else. At one point, I showed up at the bank and realized I've been riding around with $40,000 cash in my backpack for the previous 1½ hours. People would hand you deposits. It was interesting, which was for some reason really motivating and inspiring for me. It felt like I was the grease that was helping the wheels of commerce keep turning. I was helping real estate deals get signed, seeing big contracts get closed, seeing how and why people were soothing each other for different things because these were the documents I was carrying around. Edward: You became aware of that stuff or was it a matter of, hey, Sam, take this piece of paper and get it across the street? It was like you've learned what the pieces of paper were for and the impact of your decisions were.Sam: You do because people don't call a bike courier when a document needs to get there eventually. I would show up at offices seven minutes before a bank six blocks away was going to close and something you needed to get to the back before close. They wanted me to know how important it was. There were times I was delivering legal depositions or summons and I couldn't deliver it. I would go back and give a statement that would get taken down and taken to court.People would talk to me. People like talking to people. I was friendly and personable. I learned a lot more of how these businesses were running and people would think I would. Edward: It's almost like those stories of the guy working in the mailroom who learns how the CEO operates and then moves up to the ranks. Sam: The secret of my success. Edward: You got your PhD in Computer Science. What were you planning to do with that before you actually left the world of academia?Sam: I planned to leave the world of academia since I realized that I was in the world of academia pretty much. I thought that getting a PhD in Computer Science would be a good way of getting a good-paying job as a teacher. I like teaching people. I like helping other people understand problems and dive their way through things. Once I realized that all I had to do was research and that was what I've built myself a path to, I got out as fast as I could. Edward: You went to McKinsey. Why did you end up in McKinsey?Sam: I ended up at McKinsey because they dropped off a stack of brochures in the mailroom of the computer science department where I was at. A friend of mine said that one of his high school friends went there. They were smart, liked it, and so would I. It was no more strategic than that. Edward: On that note, I want to jump ahead a little bit. In 2013, you joined Burger King to develop their pricing strategy. After spending a bunch of time doing strategy at McKinsey's, strategy at OLG, you're doing more strategy at Burger King, but then you left a year later to run product innovation. That seems a pretty big switch for someone who had been spending their career doing strategy. How did that happen?Sam: One thing, you may have guessed from why I decided to leave academia, every time I've tried to make a strategic choice or plan out who I want to be in five years, I've been spectacularly wrong in my career. A decent explanation of what strategy works is the questions that clients don't know even where the question fits. It's not even that they have a question they don't know how to solve. They don't even know where it fits. They go, oh, it's not operations or it's not marketing. It's a strategy. Let's call in somebody.Edward: It's the other.Sam: It is really the other bucket. After a career literally of answering the random questions that nobody could figure out how to answer, I got pretty comfortable with just jumping into, this topic looks interesting. I'll go do that now.The opportunity came up in Miami to go do pricing for a year. I did that. Because I correctly guessed that Burger King was a company with a culture that was pretty well-attuned to how thought, after a year of doing pricing, they said, hey, why don't you move to the test kitchen and figure out what sauces we should put on our original chicken sandwich and extra-long cheeseburger? You seem like you might be good at that. I'm like, okay.Edward: It is interesting the way you describe it because it feels like coming from a career in strategy, people think of strategy as, hey, what's the five-year plan? What's the 10-year plan? But for your own career, you're saying that strategy is the last thing on your mind.Sam: It could sound like that, but in my experience, strategy isn't a bottom-up, let's think about what we should be doing in five years. It's more a matter of, we're doing a bunch of stuff and we don't know how it fits altogether or we don't know that it all makes sense. Can you come in and take a look at all the things we're doing and make sure that there is a connection to our underlying core of who we are as a company?I think of strategy not as a bottom-up, high-level thinking but more of an organization, seeing how things that a company is already doing fit together. I think that's similar to how I've thought about my own career. We can figure out how it fits together afterwards. It's more a matter of making sure that the individual ideas make sense at the time.Strategy is looking across things going on and plugging them together. Career decisions are doing things and figuring out how they fit together afterwards. You've probably got a pretty good intuitive idea of what you want to do next.Edward: It almost sounds like strategy is story-telling.Sam: I think that's very, very much the case. You need to help senior executives figure out how to tell the story of who they become as a company.Edward: Your career is almost the same idea. You do the things. You take opportunistic chances. Then, after the fact, you can go back and tell a story about how it all fits together.Sam: Which interestingly, if you go back to when I was 13 years old and running a Dungeons & Dragons game, sometimes, your players just do stuff. You go, yeah, that makes sense. I can fit that together into the story I'm telling. It's not that it was pre-planned. You're just working with what exists.Edward: Sam, what were the biggest failure points in your career? Where did things not go as expected?Sam: I think if you look at any of the times I've switched companies or switched careers, that's when I realized that the current plan that I was on wasn't working anymore. I [...] those things as failures. I spent five years getting a PhD that I realized four years in I did not want. At one point, I realized that I didn't want to be a consultant anymore.There haven't been any spectacular failures where people have come to me and said, you've really disappointed us and we're going to fire you now. Instead, I'm more a matter of the thing that I thought was interesting. It evolves or changes in a way that I no longer like or I evolve and change in a way that I'm no longer interested in. That happens every 3–5 years. We just change.Edward: Sam, you're now a head of the retail of Restaurant Brands International. I want to cover more of that in part two, but I want to touch on an experience you had last summer, if you're comfortable talking about it. Tell me, about 40 minutes last summer, you died and they managed to bring you back to life. In a movie, that would cause you to reevaluate everything in your life and change who you are and what you think about. Did it do anything like that for you? How did you change after that event if at all?Sam: That's a really good question. For anybody thinking about business was spectacular, it would be like a scene from the most over-the-top hospital drama you've seen. The first defibrillator did not work on me. They had to go find an antique one that happened to put out more power. That's what eventually restarted my heart back to life.I thought about this and I still think about whether I should be reevaluating my life, but my approach of, am I happy with what am I doing right now and if not, then I'll go find something else to do has served me pretty well. I haven't spent 10 years chasing a goal that's 10 years down the road in the hopes that once I achieve it, I'll be happy. I try to make sure that I've enjoyed what I'm doing along the way.I came out of that. Actually, the first thing I did was send a selfie while I was still intubated to my Microsoft Teams group at work saying, don't think I'll be in at work today. I was back on the job within 8 weeks of meeting 39 minutes of CPR with a very talented team at the Toronto General Hospital.My reevaluation of my life ended up not really being one. I'm still pretty comfortable with the choices I've been making.Edward: Sam, what are your productivity tricks? What do you do to be productive that most people don't do?Sam: You're either doing things or you're not doing things. If you're doing things, it's less of a worrying about focusing on staying on one task or focusing on the highest priority item, than continuing to work on it until you lose momentum, you lose steam.I would rather finish 60% of one task, get distracted, go to 50% of another task, go back to the first one, and then force myself to finish something after I lose interest. As long as I am being productive, I don't really worry necessarily whether it's my top priority item or third or fourth in my priority list. I just enjoy the fact that I'm getting things done.Edward: There's something about that. Like prioritization is overrated in that you're much better just be getting something done than spending a lot of time trying to optimize for the right thing to do.Sam: Things are either important or they're not. If they're not, they shouldn't be on your list. If they're important and they're on your list, as long as you're doing anything, you're doing well.Edward: I read somewhere—I can't even remember who it was—their model of as long as your distractions are also something you want to get done, then you're fine. If you stop doing what you want to do because you go and spend time on Facebook, that's not so good. But if you're stopping doing project A because you're distracted to do project B and then you get distracted and start working on project C, you're probably going to be in a good place by the end of the month.Sam: Yeah. That's exactly right.Edward: Sam, this has been fantastic. We're going to pick this up next week under my new publishing model. We'll pick up with part two. We're going to dive into Tim Hortons' business.Sam: Right. Thanks, Ed. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

In this episode I interview Breathwork Facilitator and Co-Founder of "The Quantum Questions" - Sam Pilbeam. Sam has had an amazing life journey. Not only did she start meditating at the age of five but she has also completed the "Mundan" Ceremony, where the participants have their head shaved. Sam You are a beautiful soul and a wonderful new friend to boot. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Don't forget to check out the links below!! xx   https://youtu.be/pQ0qBjbdB0k (Video Podcast Available On YouTube)   https://www.thequantumquestions.com/ https://www.stcatherinesretreats.com/   https://www.facebook.com/thequantumquestions https://www.facebook.com/stcatherinesretreats   https://www.instagram.com/the_quantum_questions/ https://www.instagram.com/stcatherinesretreats/   https://midnightmcbride.com/ https://www.facebook.com/MidnightMcBrideOfficial http://bit.ly/FPTP-AMAZON http://www.salfordcityradio.org/shows.php?id=2036 (The Audio Podcast is available on Podbean, Spotify, iTunes, Google and many others)

Stories in this episode: Brothers Charlie and Sam start a trek up Mt. Kilimanjaro only to find that the steepest trail ahead lies in their conversations along the way; An important spiritual lesson on-stage leads Broadway performer Sandra to the surprising truth about her most challenging role off-stage. Show Notes:  To see pictures and links for this episode, go to LDSLiving.com/thisisthegospel Transcript:  KaRyn  0:03  Welcome to “This Is the Gospel” an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith everyday. I'm your host KaRyn Lay. Our theme today comes from an oft-repeated phrase, "What ere thou art, act well thy part," which has made its way into Latter-day Saint cultural consciousness in really interesting ways over the years, like its cousin, "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it," this phrase is often misattributed. Sometimes it's attributed to the scriptures, sometimes to Shakespeare, and sometimes to the Prophet David O McKay. But it's none of these things really. Nobody really knows where it came from. It was the life motto of President McKay, but that's because he first spotted the saying engraved on a stone in Scotland, where he was a discouraged missionary. The saying brought him comfort, and it helped him to buck up and jump back into the work of gathering Israel with his whole heart. And since then, he has shared it with all of us. And it has come to mean a lot of things to a lot of people in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.   In fact, many years later, it became a touchstone for Sister Elaine Dalton's ministry, as the General President of the Young Women's organization. And if you are old enough to listen to conference in 2013, you might actually remember her very last talk before she was released. She talked about how this phrase sustained her during a time of deep discouragement. But why? What is it about acting well our part that captures our imagination and buoys us up in the face of disruption or challenge? Well, in today's episode, we have two stories from three people who found out what Shakespeare, or Shakespeare's brothers cousin, or whoever it was, who wrote that, what they already knew, when they carved that phrase into the rock. Our first story comes from two brothers who faced a steep mountain both literally and figuratively, and came down the other side with a clear sense of their part in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We'll start with Charlie, and then you'll hear from Sam as the story develops. Here's Charlie and Sam.   Charlie Bird  2:08  So the first thing I remember thinking was, "Is this real life?" Because I'm looking at this mountain above me. And honestly, I couldn't really see much. It was just like a jungle with trees and vines, and it was just going higher and higher. And then it was just lost in the clouds. And I couldn't believe that I was actually at the base of Mount Kilimanjaro. If you know anything about my family, it's that we're kind of extreme and we love physical challenges. I'm there with my dad and my little brother, Sam, and my sister, Hannah. What we decided to do for this Kilimanjaro summit was try to do an unassisted hike. So most of the time, when you're hiking the mountain, you have like porters to carry your food and your water. But we wanted to go unassisted, which means we had everything with us just on our own backs. So I hoist this bag onto my shoulders, and I was like, "Oh my gosh." This is like the first moment that it's actually hitting me that I have to take this bag to the top of the tallest freestanding mountain in the world.   We go to weigh it in, and I can't remember exactly how many kilograms it was, but I did – it was like 30 kilograms, which is roughly 65 pounds. And I'm looking at my brother Sam, and we're like, "Are we cool? . . . Or are we crazy?" And looking back, I think it was a little bit of both. And honestly, all the park rangers there thought we were definitely crazy. For about two years before that I'd become a really avid hiker around Utah. And so I would do Timpanogos on the weekends with friends just for like fun and Angels Landing was a breeze and I was hiking all over the Wasatch Front and all over southern Utah. And I felt pretty good. But about 20 minutes into this hike – Kilimanjaro with 65 pounds on my back – I realized this was not going to be like any hike I'd ever done before.   One of the most incredible things that I noticed immediately was the environment, my surroundings. I've never seen so much foliage and animals, there was monkeys jumping through the trees, the landscape was just so beautiful. And there was these mossy vines that were hanging over this dirt path, the light was coming in, in like filtered scattered bursts illuminating the floor and there were flowers on the jungle floor. This is, this is the kind of trip that you know, everyone wants to go on but I was actually living it. I was like, "I cannot believe I'm doing this." And even better, with some of the people who I loved the most.   A couple hours into the start of our hike, we're just climbing. Elevation is steep and me and my little brother Sam are just moving out. For some reason. We were just feeling good. I think we were just excited to be there. We kind of got ahead of the rest of the pack. And for a while it was just me and Sam on the trail. And it was so interesting to look over at him. And notice that, you know, he'd always been my little brother. He's five and a half years younger. It was always kind of like – he was just little, you know? But now I'm looking at him and he's the same height as me and our strides are matching and I was like, "Dang, my little brother's like – a man." You know, I'm protective of him. I've always been like a caretaker of sorts to him, but now he was an equal and that that was kind of the moment I realized that he was an equal as we're moving out on this trail.   Sam Bird  5:18  Charlie and I had always been close. He had always been my best friend, my older brother, five years older than me. So I've always looked up to him, really in everything. Just the way he's been able to interact with people. He – we always said that Charlie is so skilled and talented in so many different fields that, that he could literally do anything. And I wanted to be like that. And he coached me through a lot of things and taught me a lot of things. And I was just happy to be with him.   Charlie Bird  5:46  You know, sometimes I wish there was a word that conveyed something stronger than brother, because that's how I've always felt with Sam. Growing up, we shared a room, and we basically shared everything. We played basketball – he's a basketball star – I honestly can't remember a single time I've ever lost a pickup game at the Rec Center, when Sam's on your team, like you want Sam on your team. And we just loved adventure. And we would explore and we would sing together and try to cook together and stay up late every night talking just about our lives and what we wanted to do and our big dreams. And then now as adults, we share the same clothes and we bought the same type of car. And just everything we did, we were we were essentially like twins.   And so sometimes using the word "Brother" to describe Sam doesn't seem like it's full enough – that it's meaningful enough, because our relationship was just, was just so deep. But there was one really important part of me that Sam didn't know anything about. And as we're walking up this mountain, and I realize that he's no longer just a little brother, that he's my equal, I'm realizing that I was hiding something really important from him. The fact that I'm gay.   At this point in time, I was putting so much emotional and mental and spiritual energy into trying to figure myself out and figure out how to reconcile my faith with my orientation. And so much of my life was devoted to that. And he didn't know anything about that. And I felt that  – it almost felt like a physical barrier to our relationship. I get asked quite often, "Why do you have to come out? Like, straight people don't have to come out." And in a way, I think that's kind of the point, like, the assumption is that everyone is straight. And so everyone – at this point in time – was assuming that I was straight. And to be completely honest, for a little bit, I liked that. Because for a long time, I wanted to be straight, so bad, I really wanted to fit in. And so when people assumed I was straight, I felt like I didn't have to work so hard to prove my worth. And the paranoia of someone thinking that I was gay, would go away.   But as I became more accepting of myself, and as I started praying about the nature of my orientation, and feeling like I needed to accept it and stop trying to change, everyone else thinking I was straight got really awkward. Because – because I'm gay. And people were like, either always trying to set me up on dates with girls, or talking about my future wife and my future family. And I just felt so weird about it. And especially with Sam. I mean, we're brothers. So like, we talk about girls. And like, that was a big part of our relationship. And it was a part that I had faked my entire life. I just felt so insincere and, and awkward hiding this part of me. So there I am, on what I consider to be like one of the most exciting, beautiful, like vacation, trip, adventures of my life, and now we're three hours into the hike and I'm having this existential crisis. Because I'm like, "Sam doesn't know I'm gay. And no one knows I'm gay." Well, actually, at that point, my sisters and my cousin knew and that was it. And I was like, "I'm living a lie."   And I was trying – really what I was trying to do was just like, be mindful and be in the moment. So instead of like focusing on all of this, like anxiousness and worry, I just start thinking about the trees. Like, "I'm going to focus so much on the beauty of this landscape, that it's just going to push this out, and I can shelf it until I can figure out what to do with it." And so I'm looking at the trees and, and I'm, I'm an artistic soul, and I have a real soft spot for nature and for beauty and for beautiful things. So I'm just trying to focus all of that energy into that side of my personality so I can forget about that I can't tell Sam I'm gay.   And the reason I felt like I couldn't tell him is because I cared about him so much. And I was so, so terrified of any potential rejection. I mean, this is, this is my brother, like, he's an extension of me and, and his role in my life is paramount. And the thought of changing that relationship, or making it weird or divisive, or polarizing or just even different, filled me with such incredible fear. It was crippling. And, you know, on top of that, I'd always kind of been his mentor, you know. I, I was the older brother, he would come to me for advice and with questions, especially spiritual questions. And I – this recurring thought I keep having was, "Is he still gonna trust me if he knows I'm gay? And how am I supposed to teach him anything about life or religion or faith? When I myself am incredibly confused? like, how is he going to trust me?" The weight of that potential rejection was so heavy, and it weighed so heavy on my soul, like it was heavier than my backpack, which by the way, was incredibly heavy, if I can remind everyone it was 65 pounds. I just, I didn't know what to do.   As we're walking, we're sweating. We're breathing heavy. And it's been probably 35 – 45 minutes, where I'm just focusing on the trees, you know? And he's like, "What are you thinking about?" And I was like, "Uh oh, he caught me off guard. I wasn't expecting it." So I just kind of went along with what I was trying to do, which looking back, it was silly, but I was like, "Oh, you know, just like the trees." And so I start describing what I was trying to see in the trees. And, and you know, which is true, like, my goodness, they were beautiful. But I'm trying too hard.   Sam Bird  11:59  Everything was normal. And then all of a sudden, Charlie started talking about the trees, but like, in a really weird way. I know, Charlie, and I know he loves trees, right? And I know Charlie always loves to talk about like, the elements and everything working in sync, and blah, blah, blah. But at this point, I'm like, "Alright, Bro, I get it. The trees are nice." It's like, this is 45 minutes of us talking about trees right now. So I'm done. I'm like, "Okay, what is actually going on?"   Charlie Bird  12:29  And he's like, "Dude, like, why are you being weird? What's actually up? Because I can tell there's something up." And I got the coming out feeling. So, it's funny, people ask me a lot like, "What does it feel like to come out?" And I think coming out is one of the most courageous things anyone can do. Because it's scary, you know, like that potential rejection is a really hard thing to face, especially with someone you care about. And I compare the coming out feeling to the way someone might feel if they had to speak unprepared in front of a group of like, 100,000 people. Or, in fact, the closest thing I've ever got to it is the feeling of when the spirits telling you that you need to bear your testimony on a fast Sunday, but magnified by like, some exponential amount, because it's just so – like, it's like this release that has to happen, and you know, you have to do it. But no part of you wants to stand up and walk to the pulpit. And you're not sure that your legs will support you or you don't know if you're going to pass out or throw up.   So here I am taking that walk to the pulpit, as I'm about to speak and tell my brother that I'm gay. And I started hyperventilating. Which, it's so funny because like, I'm an athlete, and I am a gymnast, and I'm always so in control of my body and my body's reactions to things. And I started breathing so heavy and I was like, like verging on a panic attack hyperventilating, I was so nervous to tell him. And he – I remember he made this joke, he was like, "Well, for being the world's greatest mascot, you're sure not in very good shape." And he's like, taunting me because he's like, "Haha, I'm in better shape than you." And then I was like, I actually couldn't breathe. And so I got it out, I muttered out, "It's not the mountain," Between like – honestly it was like "It's . . . not. . . the. . .mountain." And I remember his face changed, like his, his brows knit together, and he got really concerned and he was like, "Oh, like, are you okay?" And he's like, afraid I'm actually going to pass out because I probably was about to. And he was like, "Hey, there's a fallen log right over there. Give me your bag, I'll take it over there and we can rest for a while and get get some food. I have a Snickers bar, you should eat it." And I'm watching my brother just have so much love for me. I was like I have to tell him. He says "If it's not the mountain, what is it?" I said "Sam," and I waited for a while. I said, "I'm gay. He said, " . . . what?"  And I said, "I'm not attracted to girls." Like I kind of defined it for him. I wanted him to understand what I was saying. I said, "I'm gay, Sam. I'm attracted to guys."   Sam Bird  15:23  At first, I thought it might have been a joke. Because I was confused. I thought Charlie was straight, totally 100% straight. So I was kind of trying to figure out how he could be gay. Because in my mind, it wasn't an option. My mind directed to just, "Okay, then what about this girlfriend? Or what about whenever you told me this or that?"   Charlie Bird  15:47  And honestly, at this point, I still wasn't sure how this conversation was going. I was like, "Is this a successful coming out or not? Because we haven't really gotten anywhere." And he was just confused.   Sam Bird  15:58  And I started asking him questions, and I asked him, I was like, "Isn't it a choice to be gay? Like, why'd you choose this?" I remember him telling me "Why would I choose this? You don't think – " and he went off on like a rant, and it was emotional. He said, "You don't think I want to get married in the temples Sam? You don't think I want all these things – that we all want?" The blow that hit me the hardest was whenever he said that he went on a mission – he served a mission, hoping that if he served well, and if he served perfectly as he said, God would take his "gayness" away from him. And that's when it really clicked for me, that he didn't choose it. Being gay is not a choice. There's so much more than what meets the eye.   And I felt horrible. I felt horrible, because I had said a lot of things very, like derogatory things about gay people. So I apologized for all the things I told him, all the things I'd said, just all my misconceptions. It was tough. I still didn't really know what to do. So I said, "But what are you gonna do? Cause I don't know what to do so like, what are you gonna do?" And when I asked him what he was gonna do, I meant it in a way of like – a futuristic way, as in like, "Okay, what are you gonna do with your life and with everything that we've been taught, and everything that we know, inside the church, even outside the church, like social norms?" So the question I asked was probably kind of a tough question to answer. And it was, and he just said, "I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna do." And whenever someone you love, so much, doesn't know what to do. I think in any circumstance, it's hard. And so I just told him like, "Bro, I don't care what you do. Like, I'm gonna be here for you, I love you. You're my older brother. We're tight. We're, we're cut from the same cloth, nothing will change. Nothing will change between our relationship." It was an emotional moment, like we embraced. We started crying.   Charlie Bird  18:07  He explained to me that, like he had so much faith and love for me. And that whatever I chose, he knew would be the right thing for me, and that he would support me no matter what. And at this point, I'm speechless. Because I don't think there could have been possibly a better reaction. I'm coming to him with this this huge, weight. Something I was so nervous to tell him. And he said, "I love you. And I trust you." And those were my two biggest fears – that his love for me would change, and that he wouldn't trust me. And I know he was inspired to say that.   Sam Bird  18:49  So we sat on this log, we shared a Snickers bar and we just talked. And I told him I'm sorry. That's mostly what happened – was me just apologizing. Maybe for 30 minutes. I just told him I was sorry. He, you know, he forgave me really quickly said, "It's okay. You didn't know, you didn't know." But I still felt bad. I'm like, "Yeah, but . . . " The worst part was that he couldn't trust me to tell me before, when it was harder. And that's important. I'm glad he came out to me whenever he felt like he was comfortable to, but I wished I could have done something before to make him feel comfortable.   Charlie Bird  19:27  So about 20 minutes later, we're sitting on that same mossy log, and my dad and my little sister and the trail guide came up and caught up to us. Honestly, they were kind of mad. They were like, "Where have you been?" And we're like, lost in Africa, you know? And we're like, "Oh, we were just feeling it." And it was just so funny to know that me and Sam were the only ones who knew that we just had this incredible spiritual bonding experience. And my dad and my sister Hannah are like, "You're so annoying. You think like, what are you trying to prove?" And we were joking with them and we're like, "Dad, you're just, you're just mad because we're so much faster than you, you old man." And you know, Sam's words were still ringing in my head when he said, "This doesn't change anything." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, nothing changed. This feels normal." But at the same time, everything changed, because now all this weight that I was carrying up this mountain emotionally, is gone. And now we can just focus on the physical weight. How great is that? Like, that's the reason I'm here in the first place. I love a physical challenge.   And the rest of the mountain, we just hiked it with this vibrance, and this tenacity. We descended through these beautiful valleys and we walked through these fields of broken obsidian. And I was just feeling so good. And I'm kind of a peacock, and I like to show off. And so a couple of times, we'd catch up to hikers that had been doing it for days. And we – we'd you know been, we'd been skipping campsites because we just felt so good. All four of us. And I would take off my bag and I'd be like, "Hey, Dad, take a picture of me doing a backflip." Just so all the hikers could watch me do a backflip on this ledge. This I mean, like ledges that look over the earth, the whole world just fields of endless clouds.   And at night, it was so cold, the sun would go down, it was just freezing. And me and Sam were sharing a little two person tent. So we would just like get as close as possible and try to sleep. But we didn't have mattress pads or anything because it was so minimalist. You know, we took only like bare necessities. And so these rocks are cutting into our ribs and we can't sleep. So we just talked. And I was honest with him. And I noticed that as I was vulnerable and opened up, he was sharing things with me, too. Things that he'd been struggling with or dealing with or trying to figure out that he'd never really felt able to, to bring to the surface. And the love we had for each other was like gilded in a way. Because we just got so much closer.   On the morning of the fourth day – maybe it was the third day – it wasn't very many days, that's all I know, it's kind of all a blur. But we woke up at two in the morning. And after we'd been at base camp and we took the the final summit to the top of the mountain, the four of us together and it was cold and it was windy and like probably 1000 times I wanted to stop and turn back because it was just so cold. But there was no way we were going to risk missing sunrise at the top of this mountain after we worked so hard to get there. And we're waiting up there, it's it was negative three degrees Celsius. I'm not sure the conversion for that, I'm only good at kilograms. But uh, we're waiting up there shivering next to each other. And we watched the sunrise from the summit of the tallest freestanding mountain in the world. And it illuminated the glaciers and it casts beautiful pink and blue hues. And it was one of the – if not the most magical moment of my life. And I got to share it with the people I love the most.   This Kilimanjaro trip, we talk about it so much for so many reasons. You know, we got up and down in four and a half days, which was unprecedented. Honestly, we got down so fast, because we ran out of food and we were just starving. So from the summit, we just went all the way back down and just did like, I don't know, like 16 to 20 hours of like straight hiking on the way down. And in this trip for Sam and, Hannah and my dad and me, it's become like, almost a legend, you know, some sort of fable that we just love to recount and tell stories. And, "Remember when we did this . . . " and it just, we just really loved this trip. But out of everything that happened for me, and I think for Sam too, the most beautiful thing was that moment where where I came out to him. And he met me in such a wonderful, perfect way for the situation.   Sam Bird  24:03  I never really knew how important the Kilimanjaro trip was to Charlie until he published the book, until he published Without the Mask. And I'm just happy that we're so much closer now. Like now I can tell Charlie anything. And he'd love me anyway. And vice versa. He could tell me anything, and I'd love him anyway. And so we know that. And that trust that we've developed in large part because he came out to me has absolutely strengthened our relationship.   Charlie Bird  24:37  For a really long time I was acting a part that was never my part to act. It was a role. It was it was fake. But when he saw me for who I am, it helped me connect with who I am. And it solidified all the real parts of our relationship. And it kind of made all of that fakeness and that triviality – was gone. It just felt so much more real.   Sam Bird  25:03  He was made for this. I think, I think that he was made to be a leader in this, like this movement of just equality and seeing everyone as Christ would see them. So even a hater who DM's him on Instagram, he tries to see them as Christ would see them, Because that's what he hopes from them, which I've, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do it. I would want to throw hands, I would want to find somebody, I would want to say, "Don't you call my brother that! I'll. . . Ahh!!" But he just responds every time, "Sam, I will not fight hate with hate." The perspective shifts that has been that he has instilled in me has been monumental just for my ability to see people the way God sees them, and the way I should see them. And the way someone should treat someone.   To act well my part, I first need to know my part. And I think that if each person did that we could create change within our families, our communities. And that's why I'm so proud of Charlie, because within our family and our community, it has happened. And the difference has meant everything – I know it's meant everything to him, and because it has meant everything to him, it means everything to me.   Charlie Bird  26:22  When I think about the way that Sam interacted with me, in that moment, one of my most vulnerable, courageous moments, I can't help but think that that's exactly how the Savior would have acted. I believe that he would have shown love, and that he would have shown trust, and that he would have been able to do that same thing and read who I am and what I needed. And it was so beautiful to see the Savior – my Savior – Jesus Christ, emulated in my brother. And I feel like I've learned a lot about how to be Christlike, and how to actually love a human, because of the way that Sam was able to act well his part.   KaRyn  27:17  That was Sam and Charlie Bird. You may recognize Charlie's name from the years that he was celebrated as the BYU mascot Cosmo. And as Sam mentioned, Charlie wrote a book about his time as Cosmo and what it was like to come out to the world in such a public way, and why it was so important to his faith that he do it. The book is called Without the Mask: Coming out and coming into God's light. And that's where we first found the story. But like any good story, there was so much more to it. And we were really happy to be able to share both Charlie and Sam's experiences, I can feel the love that they have for one another, and even more than that I can feel the love that they have for Christ. And that love is what fuels their desire to follow him in whatever role they are asked to play.   In this story, in this moment in time, playing their part will looked different for each of them. For Charlie, stepping into his role meant bringing honesty and vulnerability and a willingness to trust his spiritual promptings to the stage. But for Sam playing it well looked like listening, offering generosity of heart and apologizing. Their roles, their part in the play of life will most likely be reversed at some point. I mean, that's true for all of us. We never step into the same stream twice. But if like Sam and Charlie, we lean into the attributes of Christ that we are so desperately trying to take on ourselves, we'll be able to show up for whatever role is next in our life with confidence. And our final story comes from Sandra, whose time on a big fancy stage prepared her well for a season of life with very little to no fanfare. Here's Sandra.   Sandra Turley  28:59  Our youngest daughter is absolute sweet and sour. She is sickeningly sweet, sometimes, actually, most of the time she's sickeningly sweet, where I feel like there's nobody more angelic than she. There just is not. The cuddles and the loves and the squeezes and the love notes are overwhelmingly loving and gorgeous. And then she comes out with these shockingly sour moments where she's just screaming because she's the youngest of four, and we have trained her to think she's the queen of the world, and that she should get everything that she wants at the moment she wants it.   So a few weeks ago, I was asking her for the millionth time – okay, fine, to be fair, probably the 14th time – to sit down and just finish her lunch. Just finish the lunch. It's been sitting there for an hour, please just finish her lunch. I leave the room I come back in, she's nowhere to be found. In fact, she's outside jumping on the trampoline. So I go outside, try to stay calm, bring her inside, and she knows what's gonna happen, because this is not a one time occurrence. We come inside and I put away her lunch and I take her upstairs and I say, "I'm sorry, you missed lunchtime, time to go take a break." And she starts kicking and screaming that she's starving, and what am I doing to her? If I don't let her eat lunch, she's probably gonna die. She's telling as she's screaming this. And so while she's screaming, I start screaming, "I can't do this anymore! You never listen to me. You really, you have to stop screaming. Right now!" Is what I'm yelling to her. "Please stop screaming" is what I'm yelling, ah. And here is the moment that I find I'm in constantly.   This is a repeat performance for the two of us. And I see a pattern that I am desperately trying to break. The pattern is, I get triggered by a single moment, then I have one initial thought from that moment. And shortly it turns into an avalanche of self loathing, where I completely closed myself off to everything else and figure that I'm the worst person in the world. Meaning in this instance, my first thought, as I shut the door and left her screaming in her room was, "You, Sandra, are so horrible for yelling at her." And then that one thought avalanches into all of these horrible thoughts that I'm a horrible mom, I need to control my temper, "Why can't you just let her be seven? She's going to be scarred for life. You haven't taught her right, it's your fault, not hers, you're never going to get better at this." And then the worst thought of that avalanche becomes, "This is because of your voice." My voice that God gave me, that I have used as a singer and a performer on stage. I've used it to actually bless thousands of people's lives in ways that I could share somewhat of His spirit, is also the same voice that I just used to crush my little daughter's heart.   So in 2003, I was performing on Broadway in Les Miserables. I was performing the role of Cosette, the daughter of Jean Valjean, the main character.  And the whole story is just gorgeous. The whole story is about this man, Jean Valjean his redemption in life and each night, as I was performing in the show, adding my voice to the voices of all the other characters on stage, I was not amiss to the fact that we were sharing the concepts of mercy, and justice and sacrifice and charity. And I heard at the end of every single show, as my character Cosette was down at the very front of the stage, I could hear the sound that was my favorite to hear, which was the passing of the tissue packages from audience member to audience member and the sniffles. Because to me that small little sound meant that lives were being changed. hearts were being touched. Maybe they were thinking, "I should have more mercy or for that person in my life, or maybe for myself." So there's no doubt in my mind that God was in the work that I was doing on stage. No doubt at all. God's spirit was there. Whatever anybody else wanted to call it. I called it the Spirit, the Holy Ghost. That's what I was feeling every night.   I also felt that just as much offstage as I did onstage with maybe a touch more nerves offstage than on because offstage, God was with me as all of my friends, all the cast members and crew members were every single day barraging me with questions about my faith. And that brought probably more nerves than singing a pretty little song in front of 1600 people up on the big stage. Questions just came at me mostly about how young I was. I was just 22 - 23 years old when I was performing. And every day it was like, "Why are you married already? That's weird. How could you have chosen somebody to be with already?" "Why don't you come out with us to party and drink?" "What's the big deal about your underwear?" "Tell me about Joseph Smith." "I want to know about temples." "Can you please explain this polygamy thing?" And, "Are you even Christian?" That was always the one that just that was a gut punch to me. If I hadn't acted in a way that people knew, without a doubt that I was Christian, then I was going to answer that one as clearly as could be.   My whole hope, in these conversations and friendships backstage, was to love the way that Christ has asked me to love. That everyone would somehow know that I would never judge them. And that rather I loved each of them so fiercely. There wasn't a day that I wondered whether I was doing this thing, right or not. This whole Christian thing, and trying to love all the people around me.   But one night, in particular, I was on stage, it was the very end of the show. And there was a man who was playing the role of Jean Valjean. And it happened to be his last night performing that role before he was going to move on to another show. And as I sat at his feet, as his character was dying at the end of the show, and I was his daughter, weeping, literally at his feet. And I couldn't help but think about my relationship with this man, not the character, but with this man. Who was a friend of mine, and who I loved, and who had had so many questions. Who had wondered, honestly, about my faith. And I wept at his feet – not as the character – but as Sandra, wondering, have I done enough? Did I say enough? Did I say the right words at the right time? Did I answer correctly? Did I speak your truth, God? Even regardless of all that, did I love this man enough? And as I wept, I just felt the words, "Well done." I felt them deeply and truly in my heart, and then I wept some more. And it's a dang good thing that my character was supposed to be crying right at that moment. Because I did, I just cried, and I felt God saying, "You're doing it. You're doing it just, just right, Sandra. Good job."   So as I come back, and try to apply a moment like that, to the life that I'm in now, about 17 years later, I'm home, I've got four kids that are not applauding me every day. Like the applause that I receive when I'm onstage. I've got an awesome husband, who shockingly, doesn't ask for my autograph at the end of every day that I perform. And I don't even take a bow after I fold a load of laundry.   But here's the deal. As I'm home with these great kids during this wild pandemic, and virtually homeschooling four kids, and I've got this hard working husband in the makeshift basement office, I think I'm starting to figure out how to break this pattern of having one thought of my own in between my own two ears, that triggers and turns into an avalanche of self-loathing thoughts. Maybe the past six years of my life has been a journey to find some self-healing. From some, you know, mental heartache. I don't know if that's even a term "mental heartache." That's two different organs in the body. But it kind of goes together.   I think that as I've been trying to study all the different ways that I can find more mental balance from depression, anxiety, and keep my body as healthy as possible. I feel like right now, I'm trying to put all of the pieces together that I've studied. And now maybe, just finally, even though God has been a part of that whole process, maybe just now I'm actually really engaging him and saying, "I've done all this work. You've guided me to all of these thoughts in this work to heal myself. And maybe I've left you out of the biggest part, which is to turn to you immediately. The second, something happens that causes me to doubt myself." This is, this is this is the real stuff, because this is this is where I'm living right now. This is that space of, "Dang it, I did it again. Here I go. Here's that first thought.” And I know if I let my brain run free right now, and don't engage with the heavens and don't call God to be with me right now, then I'm going to be in the dumps for the next few days. I am going to fuel my mind with such negative talk about myself. And that's going to be harder to get out of that side.   So what I'm trying to do is try to stop it right at that first thought, and say, "Okay, you've had your time, first thought, you can tell yourself, Sandra that 'You're being ridiculous and naughty, and you shouldn't have done that.' And that's fine. And now let's move forward. Let's invite God into these thoughts in your mind, let's invite the heavens to be part of this process, instead of trying to do this on your own."   What have I finally learned . . . I still yell at my kids. But just last week, I was sitting at our dining room table. It was at the end of a really, really long day of virtual learning gone wrong. It was a day where every child took their turn at a massive breakdown. And all of us wondering, "How on earth is this gonna work? How are we, as a family unit, going to make this pandemic work to our benefit?" And not, maybe not to our benefit, just kind of survive it on a day to day basis. How are we going to deal with the technological problems and the learning problems and teachers over Zoom, and four kids sitting around one table with headphones on, and each of them yelling at each other to be quiet when somebody does something that disrupts their, their thinking.   But at nine o'clock at night, at the end of a long day like that, it was amazing to take a breath for a second, and I looked up, got out of my own brain for a moment. And I saw my oldest daughter, helping our son with his math homework, which he desperately needed help with. I saw our third child walk in with a huge smile on her face, because she had just voluntarily folded the laundry that I had left for probably a week. I heard my husband upstairs telling a bedtime story to our sweet and sour seven year old to try to get her to go to sleep. And as I paused and I soaked in everything that I could see and hear in that moment, I felt again, a really, really soft and quiet. "Well done." We were gonna be able to do this together. And "Well done" at that moment wasn't, "Well done, you've shared the light of Christ with someone who may otherwise not have had it," it was, "Well done. You're living in the light of Christ, in your home with your husband and children who know Christ and love him and are learning more of him. And you're doing it right. You're doing this well." And that's all he ever asks of me, was just to give my best effort.   KaRyn  43:17  That was Sandra Turley. I have been blessed to love and adore Sandra for years now. And one of the things I admire most about her is her unexpected realness. And I say unexpected on purpose, because she knows how to be polished. She knows how to walk on a stage and show the world something beautiful, but her desire to walk on that same stage and show the world real beauty – her testimony of the healing gifts of a God who values progress over performance? That is a true act of discipleship. And what about that laundry, and those kids who refuse to applaud when the mountain on the couch is conquered? Like Sandra knows all too well. There are so many tough roles that will play in our lives that will go absolutely unnoticed by mere mortals. And while we're waiting in the wings for a chance to be seen, we can stop and take the breath and look around and listen. And we'll discover that those moments are not lost to Him who sees all.   The first time I heard the phrase "Act well, the part" was at my very first Youth Conference in Redding, Pennsylvania. The entire conference was centered around a stage play that we were writing and acting during the long-ish weekend, and I was in heaven. Not only because my youth group leader was a very cute 17 year old boy, but also because acting felt like my life's calling at 14. I walked away from that conference with a serious crush on said youth group leader and a basic understanding that to act well one's part, one had to commit fully to the gospel of Jesus Christ in word and in deed. And that stuck with me, although my understanding of it has evolved over the years. At first, as someone obsessed with theater I saw acting well as an outward expression. It was being seen doing the right things at the right time or not doing things so that others would know that I was a good member of the Church. Acting well was a performance directed towards other people. And then as I grew in my desire to be more connected to Christ, acting well became a pursuit, it was still a kind of outward performance, but it was now directed at a different audience.   I wanted the Savior to see my good works, and give me his approval. And I don't think either of these efforts were bad, they led me forward. In most cases. I'll admit that sometimes the approval seeking part of my performance got in the way of actual connection to Christ and His gospel, especially when it faded into perfectionism. But overall, they were both really important phases in my spiritual growth. However, these days, I find myself more drawn to the first part of that phrase, than the last part. "What ere thou art, act well thy part." "What ere thou art –"  what are you? Figure that out first, commit to that. Commit to our role as a beloved child of Heavenly Parents, a follower of Jesus Christ, and a disciple in the work of gathering. Then the acting well comes easily because now it's an act of integrity. It's a deeper promise to be who you are supposed to be, regardless of external influence. It's an inward devotion, a quiet reconciliation with your divinity that leads to a powerful outward expression of God's love for all his children. And it's no longer simply performative.   It's now authentic discipleship. And it expresses itself in the moments that we breathe in, and let God tell us that we've loved enough. Or when we step back from our own biases to meet our brother exactly where he is on his upward hike, or when we finally decide to take off the mask we've relied on for so long, and allow others to be a witness to our deepest vulnerability. I think that's why this phrase is so compelling to us, as disciples of Christ. Why it's stuck around for so many years since President McKay brought it on the scene, because it's an invitation for us to learn what we are, and to understand who's we are, who we belong to, so that we'll know what we do, and why we do it. That acting out of integrity, that changes everything. It makes doing it well or acting our part well the result and not the goal. And that's something that will give us strength and power in the most challenging times.   That's it for this episode of This Is the Gospel. Thank you to our storytellers, Sandra, Sam, and Charlie for sharing their stories and their true selves with us. We'll have a link to Charlie's book Without the Mask as well as links to both Sister Dalton's talk, which I re-read and love, and a cool little write up of President McKay's discovery of and love for this saying in our show notes at LDSliving.com/thisisthegospel. You can also get more good stuff by following us on Instagram or Facebook at This Is the Gospel_podcast.   All of the stories on this episode are true and accurate, as affirmed by our storytellers. And of course, if you have a story to share about living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, please call our pitch line and leave us a story pitch. The best pitches will be short and sweet. But they'll also have a clear sense of the focus of your story call 515-519-6179 to leave us a message.   If today's stories have touched you or made you think about your discipleship a little bit more deeply. Please share that with us. You can leave a review of the podcast on Apple, Stitcher, or whatever platform you listen on. And if you can't figure out how to leave us a review, which I totally get. They don't call me “Grandma KaRyn” for nothing. Check out our highlight on our Instagram page for some tips. Every review helps the podcast show up for more people who are looking for something to help them stay close to the source of all good things during the week. This episode was produced by me KaRyn Lay with editing and story production help from Erika free. It was scored, mixed and mastered by Mix at Six studios, and our executive producer is Erin Hallstrom. You can find past episodes of this podcast and other LDS Living podcasts at LDS living.com/podcasts.     Show Notes + Transcripts: http://ldsliving.com/thisisthegospel See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We are happy to see you again on another episode of the Startup Junkies Podcast! This week, Caleb Talley, Jeff Amerine, and Matthew Ward have an exciting chat with Sam Parr, founder and CEO of the world's largest newsletter: The Hustle. During this episode, you will get to hear about Sam's career progression in various entrepreneurial pursuits, the research arm of Hustle Con Media called Trends.co, and valuable insights into how to attract consumers. Tune in to this value-filled episode! Our Favorite Quote: Jeff - "Where do you draw the line on fake news, free speech, and all of that since you are a media guy?" Sam - "You have to let people do their thing... You must take the bad with the good." The Hustle Trends Sam Parr

This weeks guest is Shawn Bucher. Chef Shawn has worked in almost every segment of the foodservice industry. He holds business degrees and certificates in Culinary Arts, Business, Hospitality & Tourism Management, Accounting and Professional Sales. He is Certified Executive Chef (CEC) and a Certified Culinary Educator (CCE) through The American Culinary Federation. A Certified Culinary Professional (CCP) through the International Association of Culinary Professionals. A Certified Dietary Manager (CDM) and Certified Food Protection Professional (CFPP) through the Association of Nutrition and Food service Professionals. He is the author of The First Timer’s Cookbook and The First Timer’s Bakebook. and his latest - Food People Management. His work has been awarded and recognized nationwide. He is a regular contributor to numerous food service programs, publications and outlets. He currently hosts the popular Business Chef podcast. Chef Shawn is the Director of Culinary Operations for DM&A, the largest healthcare food service consulting firm in North America and the owner of multiple food related businesses. He lives in Albuquerque, New Mexico with his wife and 3 children.Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast. Each week we expose the faulty foundational mindsets of the past and rebuild the newer, stronger foundation essential in creating your meaningful legacy. We've got a lot of work to do. So let's get started. As much as you like this podcast, I'm certain that you're going to love the book that I just released on Amazon if you will, your legacy, the nine pillars to build a meaningful legacy. I wrote this to share with you the experiences that I had while I was identifying my identity, how I began to create my meaningful legacy and how you can create yours. You're going to find this book on Kindle, Amazon and their website Sam Knickerbocker com.Welcome back to the fuel your legacy podcast and we have another fantastic guest on this is one that's a little bit out of the ordinary, definitely the first one of his kind on this show at least. And I'm going to learn so much today My mind is going to be blown super excited. So if you haven't heard of him, go check him out on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, his website, his name is Chef, Shawn boo Shay. And yeah, he has a very accomplished probably has every designation in the food industry that you could have. And you may tell me, I'm wrong, but he's got 12346 or seven of them. So he's got to be up there. More designations in his industry than I have in mind by a few. But super excited to have you here and to educate us on not just the kind of the culture and business side of being a chef and what that's like lifestyle, but also how can we follow our dreams? And regardless of what they are, how can we begin to monetize our dreams. So take it away. Let us know a little bit about you how you found your passion and how you're currently living that today.Well, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be on. I started in this business almost 25 years ago now I've been around. I started in a lot of different segments of the industry and kind of moved into others. When I was about 1415 years old, I realized that I wanted to create, I wanted to make things I wanted to be able to step back and say, Wow, I did that. And that was all I knew. And so I started kind of going down the art route where I was, I was painting I was sculpting, I was drawing, I was doing all sorts of things there. And then my high school guidance counselor came to me and he said, you know, you've got a real passion for this. You ought to take some classes of the the the Technical College just north of us, and I said, Yeah, maybe and he said, Well, you know, you'll get high school credit, college credit will pay for it. And I thought, yeah, I'll check it out. So I was looking through the course catalog and I saw it drafting an AutoCAD and all these different things, and I saw coronary arts and I was like, Oh, cool. It's an art class. And so I, I kind of stepped into it thinking that I was going to be doing watermelon sculptures and ice carvings. And the reality of it was, was that my first day there, the chef instructor was basically like, all right, food for 200 people in the next 20 minutes. And I was like, oh man, what I get myself into, but it was interesting because you know, timing. Timing plays a lot into our decisions throughout life. And timing played a lot in this decision to stay in this industry and move forward for me. So this was about 9096 or so 9697. Somewhere in there. It was the year of the first NBA lockout. And the reason that that is important to know is that that was kind of what gave me my start in this business. I had been working for a couple of years at a grocery store meat department cleaning up at nine Learning to cut me towin the NBA lockout happened. I was just starting my culinary program. And I was in Salt Lake City, Utah and that was where the Utah Jazz played. And that year of the lockout, they created this shortfall of cooks because the season was supposed to start in October and come January, they wanted to start the season and no one worked there. So it was like the next week okay, the season starts. And so the chef down there called every corner school and program out there and said, if you can breathe, I will hire you. So I showed up my first day my instructor said you had to go check this out and I thought, Oh, man, I don't even know how to get there. So I rode the bus an hour and a half each way to get there and get home. gather my first-day chefs like, Okay, why don't you come over here and mince up this duck. Why don't you and he was giving me these little menial tasks and I can tell But I was this overzealous 1617 year old kid and I thought man, I'm going to show him and so start cutting this duck breath and next thing you know I cut the tip of my finger off a few minutes later I had a knife fall on my foot. I had hot turkey juice spill down my front and back. It was just a disaster. And at the end of my third injury in about the 45-minute timeframe, my boss said, Look, man, just go home, you're not going to survive and I said no chef, I can do it. I can do it and came back the next day and ended up spending the next eight years with him. We traveled around from the arena to then into a hotel, very large hotel property, went from there into multi-unit chains. So I went from large arena field feeding to more of the multi-units in the hotel where we had a fine dining restaurant. We had buffets, we had I had a coffee shop where we were just busy all the time we had room service, we had an employee eating area that we had to provide food for. So it was just an incredible experience. And then I went into multi-unit chains and I learned how to how to manage multi-units and then from multi-units, I went into owning my restaurant, I had my restaurant for a while and then in right before my 30th birthday, I had to have back surgery because of all the years on my feet on concrete floors and the long hours and the fast pace and I had just done a lot of damage to my body. So at the ripe old age of 29, I had to have back surgery and that kind of changed things for me because all the sudden I couldn't work in operations the way that I had before I had to figure out a different way to provide a living and an income for my family and so my my direction was to go into Teaching so I started teaching coronary school and from there that was kind of a natural progression into consulting because as a consultant, you're naturally educating people and, and that's where I'm at today I continue to consult and I consult in a lot of different industries. I help people create restaurants, I work in large institutions with everything from dealing with union negotiations to designing and implementing new foodservice concepts and arenas and kitchens help transition hospitals from traditional train line service to room service so that patients can actually call down and get food that they want whenever they want it, which is a novel concept and awesome in and of itself.In going then along the way there I've written a few books and kind of tried to provide a path for others to follow also so that, you know, people can kind of avoid some of the mistakes that I made, you know this industry is synonymous with a lot of negativity long hours, very difficult, tiring, hot, demanding work, low wages, lot of addiction abuse, and you know, just different things of that nature. And so, because of my passion, my love for this industry, that's something that I want to change. And I've tried to do that through some of my books and programs that I've kind of helped to, to put out there. And most recently, I've, I've launched a podcast a couple of years ago called the business chef podcast because in my consulting career, I've discovered that you either have chefs that know food and are incredibly passionate about it and talented, but they couldn't make money to save their lives or you've got business people that really know how to make a buck, but they're Food just sucks. And so it's one of those things where we're trying to combine the two into a winning sustainable model of making food and making money. And that just happens to be the tagline of the show as well. Sohopefully, that gives you a little bit to work with.Yeah, no, I love it. One of the things that are at the beginning, so it's funny because when I was 14 years old,I had a,I'll say a similar experience, but it was the opposite, right? I had the experience of kind of that the vision of the fact that I was or could become a creator. Right. And that realization that I was meant as an individual and as a human, I was meant to create terrified me, like to the point that I went over to my friend's house and just sat there. And this friend, he was more of like a mentor for me, much older mentor of mine. He was working in his basement and I just sat there for an hour. And I'm like, I just don't want to be a creator. Like just put me somewhere. Let me just live out my life I do not want to create, because I'm scared of failure. And I'm scared of doing something bad or wrong, as the whole idea of creation. And it's interesting because I have a brother who kind of battled he's a phenomenal artist, and he battled with the same thing with his ability to draw. He when he started being good at drawing, he's like, Man I'd have I would hate to be so good and then draw something inappropriate or wrong. And it's that type of thing that learning to be a creator is a fascinating skill. If not even like a calling And it's awesome that at 14 years old that excited you rather than terrified you.Yeah, I mean, it didn't it still feels me today. I, I love to create I love to step back and see it I yeah, just it's an amazing feeling for me. And I think something that I was probably just almost always destined to do.And I agree. I'm curious what about it? Because I know that other people are in the same mentality that I was about 12 years ago, right when I was 14, thinking the same thing. I don't want to be a creator. The idea of it terrifies me. How can all this be my own doing and in life, right? In life, we're creators of our life, and to what about creation for you? And we'll call it art. I think that and I could say My life is a tapestry and I'm weaving that every day I'm creating our I'm painting my life. Every day that I have a dream, I'm going to paint that vision I'm gonna watch it come to pass. And that's my current mentality that the current state that I'm in, but what about it for you? Is so uplifting and exciting the idea of creating just so people can kind of taste the other side of the rainbow where they're like, okay, there maybe is something that I desire afterWell, it's funny because  I think part of mine came from and you know, it's funny because I don't even really remember it very well. But there's a scene in, in pretty woman with Richard Gere and Julia Roberts, where he's talking about how he doesn't want to just take over these companies he wants to, he wants to build he wants to create, he wants to, you know, see something and kind of live up to what his childhood dreams were and For some reason that always stuck with me and I was probably around that time, you know that I was, you know, 1415 years old where I was, I probably seen that movie and I had kind of somehow realized, you know that that was something that I was drawn to. And it's funny because the more I create, the more I'm inspired by it, the more I want to do it, and I think that's something for a lot of people who want to create or want to do something. It is you know, I think some people can be terrified by it and they can run from it. But I think the more you embrace it, and the more you do it, the better you get at it, you know, practice makes perfect kind of thing where I remember writing my first book and turning it over the publisher and just having to absolutely torn to shreds I mean, they, the editors, everybody just did was not a huge fan of all the content. They love the idea The premise but they didn't love how I was getting there. And they didn't see, we didn't see things a lot of the same way. In hindsight, I probably would have done things a little bit differently. But I'm also glad that I didn't because I learned a lot from how that whole process unfolded. Remember being there just being tons of revisions, and it is a very long process to kind of flush things out and get things moving, but at the end, you know, I was happy with it. But, you know, I carried a lot of those lessons into my second book, and then my third where it became much more about fulfilling this need for me this desire to, to create but also to help and that was something that I think I learned really early on was that my desire to help people and my desire to to educate and encourage and really I don't know parlay a roadmap, so to speak. of things that would work from my own experiences was important to me. And so I've, I've always, I've always kind of gravitated towards that where I've said, Man, you know, if I can make something like I just want to make something I want to, I want to stand back and that's that can be a lot of different genres because I love cooking. I love being able to set out a meal. I love being able to sculpt I love being able to draw I love being able to create music, you know, I play the guitar, the bass, the drums, like I've always kind of gravitated towards creating regardless of the medium and so it's just interesting because I think as a creator or it doesn't you might think you know what your medium is, but your medium might not always be what you think it is. You might have to go down a path and expose yourself to certain things to understand what it is because early on mine was music and when I was in my teenage years and later teenage years I was very, very much into that. Whereas, the more I started cooking, the more I started realizing that that was what I gravitated towards. And then as I got into my, my mid to late 20s it then all of a sudden it became this focus more on creating the business around the food. And then, you know, as I've gotten even older into my 30s and mid 30s and later 30s like all the sudden I'm kind of looking at Well, you know, what about these mediums of, of podcasting and TV, you know, and these different things and, you know, it's just interesting to see because as you create, it leads you down the path. And you just never really know what you're going to create or what medium you're going to use to express yourself.Yeah, I am 100% agree. And it's been interesting for me as I've progressed through my mediums of creation as well, and to see that and it's one thing that I found interesting about your story that I think it is It's common in every success story that I've seen it two things. One, the, I'm going to call it either your environment or your epiphany moment, right? We have to have something in our mind that we've seen before. We have to have been exposed to something often to have that enlightenment for you is pretty women. And that was something like, okay, maybe that's that identity of or that idea? What can I do with that idea? The next thing is a mentor. And the mentor is so so crucial for me, my mentor. When I say mentor, the person who helped me, really, how do I say this? He gave me my identity, I guess is the best way to say he helped me identify it at a very young age was my grandfather. And we were driving on a home from the dump, and in his little Ford Ranger pickup and he turned on the radio, put his hand on my knee and said, you know, Sam You have a voice that's pleasant, pleasant to listen to, you could lead people and maybe even be on the radio someday. And that was when I was like five or six. And that was the first kind of experience that I had of somebody believing in me. And fast forward. I remember that I was like, man, I would love to be a motivational speaker or somebody who can speak at that time of six as 20 years ago, the podcast didn't exist. That like, I never thought I would be on the radio. And although I'm not on the radio, podcasting is just another form of radio. It's a more current form of radio. And so it's been interesting to see how a mentor really can help you identify or guide you down a path to achieve or find and locate your identity. So that's huge. I'm curious. Well, yeah, I'm curious when you got into the cooking world, and did you have people People as you're growing up, that were naysayers, people who didn't believe in you and thought, you know, this is a bad way to go. It's not the life that you want. It's not going to be the income that you want and tried to talk you out of becoming a chef.Oh, absolutely. I've been. The funny thing was is that most of those people were in the industry. Most of those people were some of my mentors. Some of the people that I worked with, because mostly because they didn't know anything else. You know, a lot of the early mentors that I had were hotel chefs, they were they that's what they had done their whole lives. And that was what they knew. And some of them had immigrated over from Germany. And that was generational. What you did, you went through an apprenticeship at a hotel you then started a hotel, you moved up through the ranks at a hotel and then you moved on to other hotels, but like, you know, or you started you went out and started your restaurant, but most of the time they just that was what they knew and so a lot of them would ask me we know where do you want to be in five years? Where do you want to be in 10 years? Where do you want to be in your career? And you know, a lot of that very early on I just cut all because I really didn't know but but later on, the more, the more I step back and kind of processed what they were asking me or what they were looking at, or the reasons that they were asking me those things was because they wanted me to kind of move forward either faster than they did and have some of those realizations at a younger age or whatnot. And I was very grateful for that because you know, I had some mentors that said, Look, you know, being in this business is tough for you, sure. You want to do that are you sure you want to work? nights, weekends, holidays, you know, and I didn't like the They didn't want me to and I didn't and that wasn't conducive to life that I wanted. And but you know, I had to find, I had to find a way I had to find a path to do that now, I think cooking has given me a lot in life. But cooking is the easy part. You know, the craft of cooking is only part of the journey and I think when people get started in this business, they think that the better cook you are, the more money you're going to make, the more people are going to hire your whatnot. But cooking is easy to part you, you that's almost the price of admittance into this industry is you have to be able to cook and then once you can cook, you have to be able to make money. And then once you can make money you have to be able to brand yourself and once you can brand yourself you have to know what you know what your vision is for the future and how you want to brand yourself and what direction you want to move because there are so many different segments and ask specs of this industry that you could, you could go a lot of different ways. And so I think I think it's interesting because I think a lot of people that were naysayers to me, ended up through their naysaying opening, opening my eyes to a lot of things and opening the doors to some different thoughts and different ways of doing things. You know, I kind of a tangent, but I think two things are missing in schools. I think the two lifelong skills that you will always use that we don't teach in school are the ability to manage your money and know that what that means. But then also the ability to cook because we all eat and if everyone had a basic level of understanding of cooking, I think we'd be all I'll be in better hands Now with that said You know, that's the price of admittance into this businesses. Once you learn how to Cook. That's just the doorway. And then you have to learn all these other aspects of the business. It's a business at the end of the day. And I think that's where most people get tripped up. And I think that's where a lot of my mentors and people that just didn't know any other way. I think that's where some of their deficiencies were as well.Interesting thing. I mean, there's so much in this that I'm going to kind of do my best to deconstruct here. And then I'm going to give myself a little plug because I don't know how much you know about what I do outside of this podcast. But I actually, like my mission and the mission of my, my firm that I have partnered with is to teach people from all walks of life how money works, primarily middle-income America and take that role because you're exactly right. It's not being taught in public schools and it's hurting. It's time to be time private schools, a lot of times, just not being taught. period, anywhere college, high school grade school it's just not being taught. And so that's a huge area where we're focusing on and creating the ability to not only be taught it but once you are taught it has to have somebody who's a professional with licenses to assist you in making better decisions with your money. After So, that's my little plug I love what I do and I love being able to kind of help that area. But something that that you mentioned is branding yourself and understanding that's a rite of passage in my industry, it's the same way people like you, you get licensed you bear you are able to walk into an industry and now you under have a basic level understanding of financial concepts and you're able to teach somebody that's a must to get into the industry but really if you are walking in thinking you're going to work for somebody else. I don't care if you are working for a corporation w two paid our Or salary for that matter, the less I guess the more that you can start thinking about what you're doing on a daily basis as a personal business, then you, you start thinking about everything different in your life, even if you are going to go work for a corporation. If you think when you get hired, rather than him being hired as an employee, you think hey, I'm that person just employed my skill set. I'm the CEO of my life. And my objective is to add value to my life and continue to sell stock in my company. Now let's say I go work for Walmart. For me to get hired. I had to sell them into wanting to work wanting me to work with them. If you start shifting the table a little bit and start thinking about your brand. That would be awesome no matter what your career field is, that eventually, you have people wanting to head on to companies wanting to have you come work for their company. Because of the personal brand that you build up the personal reputation you've built up in any industry, but I can see how in cooking and being a cook that could even take on even more important because of theI mean, that's just such a high demand for kind of the best in the industry. Oh, absolutely. But I think you make a really good point because I that's something I've always believed is that regardless of the industry or regardless of the background of the person, everybody in this country should own a business whether it's an LLC, or an S corp, or whatever it might be, because there are just so many benefits to that and there's so many different ways of setting it up and things but those are all you know, those are kind of must in my eyes because I've had my own company for a while and I've been able to experience some of those benefits but you know, if you've never experienced that, are you You have no, any kind of perception of what that is. It's really difficult to see. See why? Because of a lot of people when I tell them that they, they kind of look at me like, Well, why? Why would I do that I'm not selling anything, I'm not doing anything. It's like, well, you're missing the point. Like, everything that we do every day. There are bits, business principles behind marketing is, you know, we're marketing ourselves, we're selling ourselves to our employers, to our future employers, whatever it might be, regardless of whether or not we have a, a widget or whatever it might be that we're trying to get on the shelf or we're trying to sell at a farmers market or whatever, whatever it might be. We are always selling ourselves especially in the world of social media now, I mean, with social media, there is such a huge opportunity to brand yourself and create opportunities for yourself that that weren't there in the past. I mean, especially in food, especially in the very competitive worlds, where people are trying to differentiate themselves, now you have this platform where you can do that. And you can be authentic and you can share your message without necessarily having a platform like your show or whatever. But if you want that, then you can create that. That's the great thing about where we're at today.Yeah, I want 100% to agree. And that's, it's just that it's a mindset shift. And it's part of education. It's part of educating people and helping them kind of see why and how and where that would be valuable. And kind of along those same lines, but it's exactly turning whatever they're happy about whatever, they find the most enjoyable about turning that into a business if for nothing else, so they aren't being taxed on their participation in their hobbies. Like if for no other reason.Amen. I agree.Yeah, no, that's so interesting. So If you were to say you had one or right, I know you have multiple but I want you to focus on one specific habit, mindset or behavior that you've used to create and your brand or your legacy.Oh, I mean, without a doubt its persistence and follow-through. I think that's the one thing that I have that I've always been good at is I have always stayed true to my word and said that I'm going to do what I say I'm going to do, and I'm going to follow it through to the end. And that's the one thing I think that really over time, I didn't think that I thought that was so common. I thought everybody did that. Like, just because I can do that doesn't separate me from the pack in any way, shape, or form. Everybody does that. But the more experience I've had and all the different segments of my industry, in all the other industries that I've participated in because you know, building a restaurant or building a food service concept is very all-encompassing your You're essentially manufacturing because you're you're creating a good or a service that you're providing you are having to deal with HR issues on a daily basis with employees because it takes employees to make that whole thing tick. All of your costs or cost of goods are pretty easily identified with your food costs and things. So there's a lot of accounting skills that have to go in plus you're having to market your business, you're having to deal with the real estate end of things and so there's, you know, these are all-encompassing kind of businesses that the just kind of go across different lines into other business industries. And, and so, you know, throughout my experience in all those, I've just realized how flaky people are and how, how fickle we are to where if it's not bright and shiny every day, we don't always follow through on it. And that's a challenge because most of the time when you're grinding it out, it's not bright and shiny, and it's not fun and it's not something that you necessarily gravitate towards or want to do. It's something that you learn how to do when you have to do it. And that's, I think, really what we struggle with nowadays is, is we want things fast, and we want things with very little effort. And society is rewarding us in a lot of ways. I mean, we have robots that make food now we have self-driving cars within the next I think within the next five years, we have you know, a lot of these real time-savers that if you look back 100 years, it's it's a totally different ballgame from the 1920s to what where we are now totally different ballgame. And, and you know, it's going to continue to be such but The basic principles and ideals that made people successful back then showing up on time working hard doing, you know, staying true to your word, those are universal, and those are timeless. And those are things that, you know, people are lacking nowadays, I can't even tell you how many interviews I've tried to conduct even for, like vice president type positions where people just don't even show up. And don't call ahead or don't dress up or don't, you know, look you in the eye when they shake your hand like, just, it amazes me at, at how these, these basic principles and these basic behaviors are being overlooked. So, I would say that the key to being successful in almost anything you do, is just knowing ahead of time that you're going to have to grind it out. You're going to have to get in the trenches, you're going to have to get dirty, it's not going to be fun all the time, but You just gotta keep at it. And the more you do, the more things will come to you.Yeah, I, I love that I'm so glad you highlighted that it hasn't been brought up in a while on this show. But I think that it is one of the best skills to have. It's my wife's biggest pet peeve is when people don't follow through, or what or when they want to just not show up, not give a text not be willing to commit to anything. And I think it's so true that that really can be the separator of whether you are, are somebody who's committed to something or not is are you willing to stick with it even when it's not pretty when it's not fun? And just grind it out because it's worth it in the end. And part of that stress that maybe people are backing away from you could say when it comes to persistence is I think and this is kind of my mission. But I think a lot of that comes down to they aren't financially prepared to grind it out there. They're not in a position financially, where they can just grind it out till they when they have to have something that pays them faster with more immediate return with the high paced world we're in. So I'm curious for you when you started building your legacy when you were going through all these different transitions. And primarily when you built when you transitioned out of the regular chef world and into the coaching and consulting world. Was that financial stress? Did you plan for it? Did you perceive it for many years in advance? So you are set up properly? Was there a little bit of instability in the transition? How did that go for you and how important is it to get set up properly when you make a transition?Well, the short answer is yes to all of those. It was a bear-man there was a lot of late nights there was a lot of early mornings there were a lot of missed soccer games and just different sacrifices that I had to make to really, really make things come through because you know, I couldn't I was not in a position to step away from a full time job in any way shape or form, you know, food services not the most lucrative business a very small margins, not you know, big payoffs potentially, but you've got to have real high volumes to do that. And to have those high volumes. It requires you to be there and so, you know, I, I did, I really struggled, getting things up off the ground, but what I realized was, you know, I was, I was never, I didn't have anything where I can just go raise a bunch of money and then just kind of coast I always had to put food on the table. But then also, to be able to get get my own thing up and going I had it had to be a side gig. So even when I was putting in 1416 hour days, again, back to that persistence, I told myself, you know, even if it was 30 minutes, whatever it was, there was going to be something that forwarded my business there was going to be something that helps progress, that aspect of what I was doing, because I knew that if I did little things every day that eventually they would, they would lead to something bigger and eventually there would be income there to replace what I was currently doing to give me opportunities for the future. And so I think that's what a lot of people aren't willing to do. They're not willing to come home and not watch Netflix, they're not willing to come home and not do things that they want to enjoy. They naturally default to like they people just don't push them. selves as much as maybe they could. But, if we want more, we have to do more. To have more, we have to create more. And that's really where it comes down to is you, you have to, you have to, you have to realize there's always going to be a sacrifice and everything you do, and that that's how it was for me. I mean, for years for four or five years. It wasn't overnight. Same thing with the podcast, when I got the podcast up and gone. I didn't know what I was doing. I had people who were kind of mentoring me and helping me through it and helping me produce it. But at the end of the day, it came down to me if I didn't record audio if I didn't go out and search for guests if I didn't, you know, put in the time to get it up and going it was never going to happen. But I knew that once I hit that tipping point that things would start rolling on their own. But yeah, I mean, we're about 100 episodes into the podcast right now. And I would say it took me 75 or 80 to figure out what I was doing and put together a system to where I was going to consistently have people on and I was going to have quality content and I was going to have it out promptly. You know, we, we promised a weekly show and we have not, not falling on that since you know, and here we are two years into it. So, you know, again, it's just it's one of those things where you've got to be persistent, you've got to be willing to sacrifice and you've got to understand that the payoff is not going to be for years down the road, but to your point. When you do make extra money, you put it away, you don't go buy new cars and new clothes and and things you sacrifice and you you put it away and you put it towards towards things that are going to increase your business and increase your your capabilities to provide and create and and the people that do that they're  they're willing to do these small things every day and which eventually lead to great results.Yeah, And that's that's really what we're chasing is the results. I love you mentioned that you have had to focus every day on something that's going to move your business to the next level. And that's for me it's a kind of a daily habit of just okay, what is one thing that I'm doing that's going to progress my business. And I guess that's how it started. Now I try and split it pretty down the middle. Honestly, I have about half the day I'm working in my business, on the income-producing activities, you could say, and then the other half the day I'm working on my business is business structures and marketing and getting my name more out there. And it's a push and pulls. Every there's a balance and it's always it's an I should say it's a balancing act. There's no real ever fixed balance. But making sure that every day you're moving the needle in the right direction is important. And that I've found that to be true. In my life and specifically with the podcast, I think you're, you're spot on with about the 80 episodes. I'm 150 hundred six, maybe I don't know, I don't know how many I'm in right now. Maybe over 200, but it's a lot. I was I'm doing three podcasts a week or did for the first year and a half. And it's a lot of recording and to have those show up every, like, at the same time, every time. And it takes a lot more foresight than you think you think, Oh, this guy just publishes a podcast whenever he feels like it. So much more goes into.So much more, a man so much more.Yeah. But it's good to have found resources though. And, and the nice thing is when people then ask, okay, well, what did you do to start a podcast? When I first got into it and a lot of my mentors, the people that I was asking that question to They were so far ahead there for five years into podcasting. They had different resources at different demands, they had enough that they were, they had everything outsourced, basically outside of just recording the podcast. And, and they were four or five months in advance, so there was no stress and get preparing. And starting on that foot, it's difficult if you're a brand new podcaster. And to get to that point, and a lot of the systems that they have in place just weren't even applicable to the were the starting point anymore because it's so far and then pass that is that's one of my objectives is to be able to create a course or something where people can know how to actually start a podcast from somebody who's still or who has recently started it rather than somebody who's way far away. Yeah, Ithink I think that'd be a great resource for people because it's, it's a growing medium and it's something that has provided a lot of value to me and And giving me a lot of encouragement help on my journey.Yeah, absolutely. So what are some of the different mediums? Let's say that somebody loves being a chef, but they just, if they could start today, like over the years of experience that you've had, and they're, they like the chef, they like being a cook, per se, but they're wondering how could I make money outside of like working at a restaurant where my hours are sucky? Because that's, I have quite a few friends who are our cooks and that's their main complaint is they love their job. They love what they're doing, but the hours are crushing them. And so well, avenues they could express their art or be a creator in their passion but still produce enough income and time for their family.Well, it's a great question and I think that you know, there's a little bit of a curve there, because your initial You may be doing something to have more time for your family, but initially, you're probably going to have less time for him. And you know, and that's a short term sacrifice. It may be a year, maybe two years, maybe five years, who knows, depending on what you're doing. But you know, for me, how it started for me was I started catering on the side. So when I wasn't working,you know, if I, if I had like a Tuesday, Wednesday night off, I would, I would do, I would cater things. So birthday parties, these women tea groups, these quinceaneras I do, geez, like every three weeks or something, it seemed like it just did a bunch of those. But you know, I found ways to create additional income initially doing what I already knew how to do. And then I realized that I was going to always have to do that if I wanted to maintain the income that I had. I was also was going to have to do that same thing. I didn't want to have to devote all those hours. So I had to figure out a way to systemize what I was doing so that I could generate some passive income and that was were writing books and teaching courses and creating online courses and you know, doing some of these other things came into play. Now, I know a lot of people that are in the same boat where they love their jobs are passionate about it, but they just wish they made more money. They wish they had better hours. But you know, I think one of the steps that you can do is you can look at what is your job if your job is working six days a week in a restaurant, you know, could you go get a different job. You know, a lot of people that I know, especially later on in their careers when benefits and paid time off and some of those things become more important. they gravitate more towards You'll be an eye or like corporate feeding places that are only operating, you know, from eight to five, Monday through Friday with holidays off, like they gravitate more towards that. hospitals and healthcare, they have great benefits, they have much better working hours. Generally, the pay is on par if not better. So you know, you could get one of those jobs, which would then allow you more, more time and more freedom to be able to create some of these things and that's, that's what I generally tell people to gravitate towards. is trying to find find a way to find a position that will give you time, time to create time to think of systems or ideas or different ways of generating income. And then from there since you have that time then you you cut that time up, you know if you are going to double At least 20 hours a week to your family, then you only have 10 devote to devote to a business-like, that's what you do, you know, but again, there's got to be sacrificed like, you know, it's I think it's fine too, to play video games and watch movies, but I don't, I think if you want more, I think you're going to have to do something more constructive. And you're going to have to sacrifice that a little bit. It doesn't mean you cut it out. But I think you have the foresight and the planning to say, you know, we've all got the same amount of time per week. And if if I'm working 40 hours a week and my commutes an additional five or six, and then I want to spend 20 hours, my family, I want to sleep eight hours a night like you just kind of cut your time up and say okay, from nine to 10pm I'm going to do this from you know, and if you're working a non traditional schedule, then it's from noon to 1 pm. I'm going to do this and, and you plan out what you're going to do And then once you're in that window, you just give it your all and you work that one hour for yourself like you would four hours for an employer. And everyone knows what I'm saying about that is that most of the time we don't always give our employers 100% of the of our effort 100% of the time, but when we're doing it for ourselves, we have much more vested interest in doing that because it is for ourselves it is for our family it is the greater good so that's what I would tell people who really want a way to kind of transition or get out is you know, look around you find a position that gives you more time and then once you have more time figure out a way to monetize that whether that's catering on the side or writing books or starting a podcast or doing consulting work as you know, but that all comes into branding to you got to brand yours. If you decide you're going to write a book you have to brand yourself as an author. And if you're gonna if you're going to write creative and you know, authority kind of things, you have to become an authority on it and you have to brand yourself like that and exude that confidence. So, you know, those are all things that I think people need to look at and they might be general, but they can apply to almost anybody in any situation in this industry.Yeah, I think in any industry, they'll apply and that's what I that's why I wanted to ask that question to make sure that people hear that and understand that it is going to come at a sacrifice and also I think time blocking and learning to control your time and let your you be in control of your time rather than your activities or whatever else is happening in life being controlled Your time is crucial. I'm curious because I know you do business coaching or at least coaching inside of the food industry. But my guess is just because I know the business. That it's applicable anywhere in any business. Where would people get ahold of you? How would they get in touch with you? Where do you most Where are you hanging out the most if they wanted to have a conversation?Well, the best way to get ahold of me is probably through the podcast. Business. chef.org is the podcast URL. We're also on social media at making food make money on either Instagram or Facebook and then you can always check me out on LinkedIn. Sh AWS, v u ch er, on the only chef with a whole bunch of letters behind my name with that name anyways, soyeah, but yeah, a lot of letters for sure.Well, you know, it's all a lot of that honestly. Just to be frank with you is I don't put as much stock in that but a lot of my clients and customers do a lot of people see those acronyms and they think man, he's got all this stuff behind his name. He knew what he's talking about. The reality is most of those I paid a fee and took a test and was willing to do that. So not to diminish that. But at the same time, you know, there there's a, there's a perception of value out there and so to brand myself and to become the individual that people want, I had to kind of figure out what they wanted and then work backward from that. And that's what they want. So yeah, business chef.org. I'm also a twitter at chef Shawn be. You can check me out there. But yeah, reach out love to touch base love to chat, love to encourage direction wherever I can.fantastic. Well, we are we're going to hit these last two questions here. Well, this last sec second last section. It's five questions called legacy on rapid-fire. It's kind of a game show version of this podcast I love It's one of my favorite parts. And so as we go through these questions, I may have you clarify some of them, but I'm looking for one word to one sentence answer to these five questions. Fair enough. Got it. I'm ready. I've been Is what is holding you back from reaching the next level of your legacy today?FearFear of what?Fear of failure or fear of success, and I've had both.Awesome. It's good that you know that. So what is the hardest thing you've ever accomplished?Probably becoming a father.Nice. And what is your greatest success at this point in your life then?Well, ironically, probably, well, I would say not just becoming a father, but being able to dedicate time to my family quality time where I'm 100% there.Yeah, I love that. What are maybe two or three books that you'd recommend to feel your legacy audience?Boo. That's a boy. That's a good one.Well, I'm going to stick with some books that have been impacted me a lot in my life. The book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell was just phenomenal life-changing for me. The book Good to Great by Jim Collins incredible insights there. Boy, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Robert Kiyosaki. I mean, I could go on and on. But those are the top three that have changed my mindset and put me on the path that I'm on today.Awesome. I love it. I'd read all three. And they're all three fantastic books, and what links to those in the show notes here, and also links where you can find him. So if you want to just scroll down and click on these, then it will take you straight to it. Otherwise, you can go search for it yourself on the various platforms. This is now my favorite question. This is why I do the whole podcast. The last question here. I'm curious, Have you listened to any of my podcasts to the very endI to the very, very end, I can't say I have,that's okay. This is a surprise that I like we're going to pretend that you're dead. Okay? And we're viewing k your great great great great grandchildren sitting around a table. So this is six generations from now. And we're viewing them sitting around a table talking about your legacy. They're talking about what you accomplish who you were the type person you were. What do you want your great-great, great, great-grandchildren to be saying about you six generations from now?Boy,I would say that I was a man of integrity, and they respected me.I love that integrity is one of my three core values along with candor and gratitude. And I love that that's one of yours. So that's fantastic. Thank you so much for taking the time. I know you're in between cities right now on your way home. And I'm just grateful for you making the time to be on this podcast and share your wonderful insight, knowledge, and credibility, to help people see how they can make a big change in their life. Iknow my absolute pleasure, thanks for the opportunity.Yeah, no problem. And we will catch you guys next time on fuel your legacy.Thanks for joining us. If what you heard today resonates with you please like comment and share on social media tag me and if you do, give me a shout out I'll give you a shout out on the next episode. Thanks to all those who love to review it helps spread the message of what it takes to build a legacy that lasts and we'll catch you next time on fuel your legacy.Links: Business Chef Website: http://www.businesschef.org LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chefshawnbucher/Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/MakeFoodMakeMoney/ Instagram Page: https://www.instagram.com/makefoodmakemoney/Connect more with your host Samuel Knickerbocker at:https://www.facebook.com/ssknickerbocker/?ref=profile_intro_cardhttps://www.instagram.com/ssknickerbocker/https://howmoneyworks.com/samuelknickerbockerIf this resonates with you and you would like to learn more please LIKE, COMMENT, & SHARE————————————————————————————————————Click The Link Bellow To Join My Legacy Builders Mastermindhttps://www.facebook.com/groups/254031831967014/Click here to check out my webinar as well! ————————————————————————————————————Want to regain your financial confidence and begin building your legacy?In this ebook you will learn:- The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy- Clarify you “why”- Create Daily Action Steps To Launch ForwardWant Sam’s FREE E-BOOK?Claim your access here! >>> Fuel Your Legacy: The 9 Pillars To Build A Legacy————————————————————————————————————

Join us for episode 4 as our gang continue their fight against snowcloaks (aka flying vaginas) in this actual play D&D campaign. Featuring Sam Went as Dungeon Master, Lachlan as Durr Thomas, Emma as Lilliput Cogglenut, George as Hijo Deunamujerenferma and Alex as the Moral Ghost/Rules Monster. Edited by Amy Larham. Story Our band of survivors continues their fight against the rays/snowcloaks/vaginas in a gritty and unrelenting battle. Will the group make it through, or will Hijo inevitably die as the snowcloaks get ready to tuck into delicious gourmet centaur meat? Tune in to find out what awaits the players in Season 2, Episode 4! Quotes Alex: They’ll savour you, don’t worry. They’ll keep you alive for the longest possible time, just nibbling. Sam: You need to age a centaur before you eat it. *** Lachlan: I like your commitment to physical comedy seeing as no one can see this George. Alex: He’s being very insensitive. George: No I’m not! Find us on social media! Facebook:@infinitedeer (https://www.facebook.com/infinitedeer/) Twitter: @infinite_deer (https://twitter.com/infinite_deer) Instagram : @infinite_deer (https://www.instagram.com/infinite_deer/) Cast and crew: Sam Went: Writer/ Dungeon Master/Producer George Hughes: Cast/Producer Lachlan Bennett: Cast/Producer Emma Gadsdon: Cast Alex Tansley: Assistant Writer/Cast/Producer Behind the scenes: Amy Larham – Editor/Producer/Technician Wildboris - Music (https://www.fiverr.com/wildboris) Hugh Ingamells - Artist (@CaptnBrowncoat) Dag Simeon-Corbett - Outro Voice And finally, thank you to our fans and listeners! If you like the Infinite Deer podcast please don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe to future episodes. Subscribe today for your chance to win an all-expenses paid trip to ephemerally sunny Al’Aheem in the midst of winter! You too can experience the sights, sounds, and food of this culturally vibrant country! (Competition only open to residents of Al’Aheem. Must enjoy cold weather and centaur meat.)

Sam joins the panelists to talk about frontend and backend team collaboration. Resources: Worse is better The Tao of Microservices by Richard Rodger Sam Joseph is a CoFounder of AgileVentures, a charity that helps groups of volunteers gather online to develop open source solutions for other charities all around the world. Sam's been mucking about with computers since the early 80s and followed the traditional education system through to a PhD in Neural Nets. Next he went all industry, researching mobile agents at Toshiba in Japan, going freelance and then swung back to academia to research peer to peer system and collaborative systems. He now spends the majority of his time trying to make AgileVentures a sustainable charity enterprise, with occasional moonlighting as a contract programmer. Check out his blog at nonprofits.agileventures.org. Please join us in these conversations! If you or someone you know would be a perfect guest, please get in touch with us at contact@frontside.io. Our goal is to get people thinking on the platform level which includes tooling, internalization, state management, routing, upgrade, and the data layer. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. TRANSCRIPT: CHARLES: Welcome to The Frontside Podcast, the place where we talk about user interfaces and everything that you need to know to build it right. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at the Frontside. With today also is TARAS: Mankovski. TARAS:: Hello, hello. CHARLES: Hey, TARAS:. Today we're going to be continuing our theme when we think about UI platforms and web platforms, continuing the theme of collaboration and with us to talk about this is Sam Joseph. Welcome, Sam. SAM: Hi, thanks for having me. CHARLES: We've already talked a great deal about how the way in which your team collaborates and the communication that happens between your team and between the different pieces of software, your system, form one of the pillars of the platform that you can't just take lightly. You need to actually be intentful about that. I was thinking we could kind of start today's discussion, kind of talking about some of those collaborations. One that we've probably all encountered, which is usually teams will be split into people who are focused on frontend, people who are focused on backend systems, kind of the services that make sure that all of the nodes that are running on our laptops and our desktops and stuff are running smoothly and error-free and obviously, those two groups of people can sometimes arrive with different sets of priorities and how do we resolve those priorities to make sure that that communication flows freely. TARAS:: What's interesting about these frontend and the backend teams is that our users are not seeing that separation. They only see one thing. They only touch one thing. They actually see as one group but there's tends of be this kind of split between the frontend and the backend. It's kind of interesting that how the user get into this. SAM: Yeah. Obviously in some teams, there's a very clear cut distinction between people at the backend and working with the components that are serving JSON over the API and there are some people who are very, very focused on the frontend and drilling CSS and a number of bits and pieces or even just staying explicitly on the design or UX design and there's a mythical full stack developer who is up and down the platform. It doesn't run exactly in parallel but there is this key thing which is almost how much sympathy or empathy can you have for another person who is not you, trying to use something that you set up. If there was a direct parallel, you'd say, "Obviously, all people who will be working on the frontend are more of that sort of person and perhaps, the people on the backend are not so much that sort of person," but actually, I think you can have people who are doing backend stuff and they're designing API is very, very thoughtfully or the kind of people that consumes those APIs and sometimes, you can have people who are very, very focused on the design and the aesthetics when not necessarily so plugged into how will someone else use this, how will it fits into their lifestyle, which might be very different from my own, so that's maybe another axis, if you know what I mean apart from this sort of pure technical [inaudible]. Does that makes any sense? TARAS:: Yeah. What's interesting is that everyone is trying to do a great job. Everyone is setting out to do something really good. What people's way of expressing good might be different, so if someone could be really focused on the quality of their code like they want to do their version of doing a really, really good job is doing the best code they could write. Sometimes that doesn't necessarily equate to the best user experience. I think everyone that I've met -- engineers who are writing code, almost everyone that I know is trying to do a really good job. If everyone is doing a good job, it doesn't necessarily always equate to the best user experience. CHARLES: I think we had a reference that everyone wants to make sure that their system is of the highest quality possible but quality in of itself is not an absolute value. It's relative. In other words, a good definition of quality is how well a system is fit to a purpose. If it fits very well to that purpose, then we say it's of high quality but if it fits very poorly to a particular purpose, then we say, "This is a system of low quality," but what constitutes something of high quality is relative to the purpose. The question is, what is the purpose of writing the frontend system? What is the purpose of writing the backend system? So it seems to me you're going to have a lot of dissonance if the purpose is divergent but if they both share the same purpose, then that is kind of standard quality on both sides. Does that make sense? SAM: That makes sense and what even more makes it tricky is that actually, purposes can evolve over time and so the thing with the frontend that needed to do with the business today is different tomorrow and the day after. The trick then is sort of the frontend and the backend, as people try to do a great their job, there's this question of how far ahead are we looking so you can talk about important things like sort of asking close modification about [inaudible] extension and there's a [inaudible] of different coding heuristics as best practice that say, you should kind of go in this direction. Sometimes, that will be the hill they want to die on. It's like, "This code needs to be this way because of this thing," and the idea is that it's sort of future-proofing them but I think the messy reality is that sometimes, the thing that you put in place to future-proof, the whole system gets canned. In two weeks, the business changes and what have you, so the extra effort that you are pushing in on one day to protect yourself against changes in the future actually gets lost and perhaps, if only you'd be able to deliver a shortcut pack, this one feature that that will got the next line of funding in, either one advocates cutting corners but... you know what I mean? Like --? CHARLES: Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to chime in and vehemently agree with you that the purpose can change radically, especially if you're in an evolved environment. What constitutes the good code or the good quality solution can vary just as radically because it needs to fit that purpose. TARAS:: When we talk about frontend and the backend, it seems there's this relationship, which is kind of positional like there's the frontend and then there's the backend. One is in sequence from front to back. It's the direction with the frontend. It's closer maybe to the user where the backend is not. But I think in practice, it's probably more like the left and the right hand where when you have to do two things together, you actually need to do two things to coordinate together. What you describe about and this is I think where taking shortcuts sometimes can actually be a good thing is that if you say, "I'm going to spend the next few weeks on a backend and doing this specific thing," and then you find out that 10 days into the iteration that it doesn't fit, the better approach to synchronize would be to stop the action and realign. But if you persevere, then you might overstep and you actually be out of sync. It makes me think that the art of creating cohesive organizations from development perspective is to create context where the two kind of work in synergy together. I think that's where a good tooling that allows its synergy to exist. I think that's a lot of the work of actually creating systems where the user experience is kind of cohesive and integrated. CHARLES: Actually, there was something that you just mentioned in there but it's actually a little nugget that I'm curious to explore and that is if you're 10 days in to like a 14-day piece of work and you realize that it isn't right and it doesn't fit with the whole, right action is to throw it away. I feel like software organizations and this might be a little bit off topic but it's something that really is interesting to me, so please indulge me. I feel like we see the product being the kind of the code output, even in Agile environments and there is an aversion to throwing away code that has been written. There's the, I would say, incentive is to go ahead and persevere because developer time is so expensive. These are days out of people lives, so they've already invested 10 days. Why not just have four more days just so you have it. When in fact, you actually have more if you just throw that work in the trash because it's an obstruction that's not needed. It's a piece of weight. It's actually something that you now are going to own and it's actually going to be cheaper in the long run and it can be more beneficial to your organization to not own it. Do you all see that happen kind of play out where people become attached to software that they've invested and will make the decision to hold on to it? Say, we'll spend two more days to complete it, even though it's the wrong thing, like identifying which things need to be thrown away? I feel like we don't actually do that very aggressively -- to say, "You know what? We need to not complete this work." SAM: I think that is a really tricky one because I think whatever people might say, when you spend time working on something, you become emotionally attached to it. I would say strongly that how logical or rational or whatever sort of a person you are, my experience is being that people working on things want to see them used. I think in a situation with version control where you can keep things on a branch, they can be useful explorations, things don't have to be thrown away in their entirety. Our charity is doing work for the National Health Service in the UK where there's a lot of employees in Europe and I've noticed the user interface that we're supplying them and I was suggesting some sort of minor tweaks and one of the developers has sort of run with the entire, big, advanced search feature that partially solves the problem but brings in a lot of other bits and pieces. He does some good work there. It's a great work but I think he kind of ran further than I was expecting down that line and I think we have now found a much simpler solution that rather than bringing an entire cabinet, it's a little shading off the side of the existing one. But I think that doesn't have to be a loss and I was reassuring him that the work was valuable and that there is interesting learnings there and potentially, we might use it in the future version of the project and now of course, the way that stuff is moving on, just how it's going to branch, it doesn't mean you can then sort of magically lose some of the work. In that case of doing this 10 days out of 14 and so on, the real question is can you get any value from switching somebody that fast? If they spent 10 days in and they realized they don't need that thing, it's like can you switch them quickly onto something else where they'll do four days or might they as well, just finish up there and leave that on a branch. That's a pull request that gets closed and it's there to go back to. That's kind of depends team by team about how quickly you can repurpose people missed rigs, if you know what I mean. CHARLES: I absolutely agree but the key thing is leaving it on a branch and not integrating it into production, like not actually deploying it because I feel like when we see a feature, it's like we've got to get this thing done and it's done and we're just going to get it in versus now that we've learned how to do this, let's put that on a branch and let's rewrite it and let's take a different approach, rather than just being married to the idea that we're going to get it right the first time or that now is the time for this feature because we understand the complexity of what it actually takes. It is a tricky question. I'm wondering if our processes don't include enough implicit experimentation. We talked a little bit about this on a prior podcast that if they don't include some incentive to not deploy features just because you have them. TARAS:: I think from a business perspective, there's not a lot of model to evaluate a certain thing. We don't have really any effective way of evaluating learning. You can measure code by the numbers of lines of code that somebody wrote and how much of code was shipped but you can't really evaluate how much was learned and how much was persisted. I think a lot of this work around supporting effective collaboration is in building a cumulative systems of knowledge like why is a good Git history useful is because it has a built in mechanism for understanding history. It gives you a way to return back to time in your project and understand the context of that specific change and I think this is something that really good teams do this really well. They will respect this because when it's necessary, it is valuable to have this. When you don't have it and you are a year into the project and something happened and then, you are using the only thing you have, which is your troubleshooting skills or you are trying to figure something, as supposed to going back and relying on that history, on that knowledge that's built into the system, what I'm trying to get to is there is an element that is inherent to our development process, which is we don't have a way to quantify it. We have no way to really evaluate it. I think this is the problem that makes it difficult to throw away work because you can measure the amount of time they'll spend but you can't measure the amount of learning that was acquired. CHARLES: Right. Thatís true. SAM: I think if you have a positive team environment, if you have your team that is stable in there -- your contacts are coming in, the money is there, everybody is there and you've got the team, you don't necessarily be able to measure the learning because the output of the team will be good. They're kind of doing that in the background but I think individual comments are not going to want to pay for learning experience. It's certainly not at the rate of software developer's cost. Although, the throwing-aways, if you're familiar with the [inaudible] book, which I think is a [inaudible] is the author, you know, build one, to throw away, you will anyway. We have a frontend mob that we run weekly doing frontend stuff and CSS and so on and we've done like it's a mockup for the client and there's this question about in my [inaudible] and so Iím saying to other developers there, "Let's not get too attached to this. We may need to throw it away and it will be a great learning to sort of restart on that." The [inaudible] to look quite nicely and the client might get attached to it. They want to ship it and I'm like, "Well, actually there's a lot of other stuff that needs to happen," and so, it's a minefield. It really, really is. TARAS:: I think some of the business relationships that we have to this kind of client consulting company relationship, that relationship might not always create the fit to purpose team for specific challenge. You can have a company that has a lot of employees but their team and their team dynamics might not be fit to purpose to the problem they're trying to solve. If you're building a platform over a long time, you want to be creating that space where that learning gets accumulated over time. It doesn't matter what necessarily the relationship is between the companies that are participating in this process. I think what matter is what are you producing as a result. If you're working together with people from different companies and they're working together and they're building this kind of an environment where you can collaboratively build things together and then people learning from the output and that knowledge is being carried over and people are being able to stack their knowledge continuously over time, if you're creating that environment and you're building a large platform for example, then you are creating a build to purpose kind of technology team to fit what you're looking to accomplish and that'll include consulting companies. I think those team, they're kind of secondary but I think it's just [inaudible] to that. It's like building a quality development organization to fit the purpose of building whatever it is that you're trying to build. If you're building something small, you might have a small team that'll able to build that effectively. If you have something big, you could have a big team that is building that effectively but building that team in a way that is appropriate to what you're trying to accomplish, I think that's the real challenge that company struggles to do. CHARLES: Yeah. In the context of these real teams, I guess what can you put in place given that you have backend teams, frontend teams and each one of these needs to be specialized. This is kind of the power of the way that people work is that we're allowed to specialize and there's power in specialization. You can have someone who can be super focused on making sure that you have these high throughput backend systems that are resilient and fault tolerant and all these wonderful things, so that they don't necessarily have to have the entire context of the system that they're working on inside their head at a given time and the same thing someone working on CSS or working on a frontend system architecture, which has grown to be a very complex problem domain in its own right. But these teams can be working in a context with a purpose is whip-lashing around and changing quite drastically and so, how do you then keep that in sync? Because we've identified purpose as being actually something that's quite a dynamic value. How do you keep these teams keyed in and focused and so, that they're kind of locked in on that similar purpose of they're going to be adapting the systems for work that they're responsible for and specialties that they're responsible for to match that? SAM: It's a good question and I have my own bias view there -- CHARLES: I would love to hear it. SAM: I can't bear working on things where I don't understand in great detail how that end user has experienced or what is the effect overall that it's trying to be achieved. You know, I've been working in boards between the industry and the charity for like 30 years and I know people are commenting like, "You were the person who wants to understand everything." I think there were some people who are maybe quite satisfied who get ticket off the general board or what have you and work on that thing and if the API specs have filled in, so that's it. Go home and they weren't losing a sleep over it. But I think if youíre going to be dealing with these changes and sympathetic that the changes is coming down the path, I think you need to have some degree of empathy with the people who are driving the changes. Do you know what I mean? CHARLES: Oh, absolutely yeah. SAM: You know, as we've mentioned already, I think people get attached to what they build and I don't think you can do anything about that. They will get attached to what they build. CHARLES: Yeah, we've all experienced it. It's so true. It's impossible to [inaudible]. SAM: Yeah. We can try and target it but it's sort of part of our nature. I think there are sort of the tools of the design sprint, of the design jam, of these sorts of things where if you can build to some level is obviously that it can't be shipped but can actually tease out the needs of the user, the designs sprint, the Google team, they have an example with kind of like this robot for hotels where it's like the whole thing is they can have robots that can deliver toothpaste to your door if you run out of toothpaste. In this design, obviously, that would be a huge undertaking to make that as a sort of our production system but they used like a remote control of a robot to simulate all of the key touch points when the client of that hotel, will actually interacts with that robot. I think the same is true when you're building these systems if you can, again going to touch back on we don't fit a code in that way that I think an ever better thing is not be building the code in the first place and to build an almost a non-code system and then, maybe some of the backend are not going to be interested in the results of what people have learned through this kind of user experience trial before they [inaudible] forever but I think it's seeing other people try to use the end system that puts you in place where you can be empathetic. I argue for the bias point of view that I think people on the backend of Netflix, trying to optimizing the streams in that or the other, they need to spend some time watching Netflix or at least watching the comedy of Netflix in order to empathize of how their work relates to the end experience and then, when those end experience needs changed, it's important for them to make change on the backend. Do you know what I mean? CHARLES: Right, exactly. They have to watch through that kind of glass window where they can actually help the person. They can't give them any information. The only levers of control they have is through their own work, making the thing changes that they need to make on the backend, so that one of those users is going to have a good user experience. This idea reminds me of something which I believe is the case at Heroku where they rotate everybody in the company through pager duty, which I think is kind of a brilliant idea where the entire team is responsible for providing technical support to the end users. When a problem arises, you get to understand what it's like to be someone who's trying to use the system. You get to exposed to the satisfaction, whether an issue was resolved or when it's working correctly or your pager is quiet for your entire shift but you can also get exposed to the frustration that you're engendering in the users if something doesn't go quite according to plan. SAM: Yeah. I'm not [inaudible]. TARAS:: There is movement in this direction because there is actually a term that has been floating around. It's like a product engineer. It's someone who thinks about the product. These kind of people tend to have the highest value in Silicon Valley as someone who thinks about the product as the outcomes supposed to their code as the outcome. Even in the Agile space, there seems to be movement in that direction because I think one of the challenges, like to do that, you have to understand how you fit into the bigger picture. I could see it being really difficult. Imagine if you're working at a bank or something and being pager duty at a bank would be impossible, simply because their organization is either too big or too sensitive. The way that their company is dealing with that is they have these group of people where you have a product manager working closely with the frontend engineer and the backend engineer so there's this exchange that is happening where people get to understand the consequences of their actions a little bit more. They understand how things fit together. There is definitely a movement happening in that direction that I think just the more, the better because one of the big differences now is the things that we make are very palatable to the users and the quality of the user experience that users are now expecting is much higher than they were in the past. I think the world is changing. CHARLES: Yeah. We mentioned this when we were talking before the show but going to the University of Michigan as I did, I was in school with a bunch of mechanical engineers. Their goal was to go work for auto companies: Chevrolet and Ford and everything like that but their mindset was very much, I think the product engineering mindset. All of them loved cars and wanted to be part of building the coolest, most comfortable, most responsive cars. For whatever definition of a good car -- there are a lot of them -- they wanted to design good cars but they were into cars and they were into the experience of driving a car, so what's the equivalent then of that product engineer in software? I think that every conversation that I had with any of the mechanical engineers who were going into the auto industry, I'm sure there are some of them that were out there but it wasn't about carburetors or whatever. They really wanted to just get into the building of cars. In some aspects, I'm sure they all integrated in some way or another but it was a group that was very focused on that outcome. SAM: In the UK, I'm hearing this term, 'service designer' a lot that's coming up. Are saying that, Charles, you get the feeling that even getting into software, I'm not so excited about using their own? Like the car, I want this amazing car and then I can drive the car and I'll experience the car --? CHARLES: Right and other people will experience the car that I've helped design. SAM: Right and in some way, in software, it's almost like the software itself there's this kind of mathematical beauty of its own and it's like always been more important than the other software heads around me like the software that I wrote. I mean, the user? At the conference and all the software guys love it, that's the key objective, isn't it? Yeah. I work with a lot of learning developers who are rightly focused on wanting to improve their skills and wanting to level up in particular tech stacks that are the ones that will lead to jobs and the future and financial stability and so on but I kind of wish I could inculcate in them this desire that the user experience was the higher goal than which bit of code does this or the other. Maybe, I'm being unfair to them when I say that. Coding is hard. There's a lot strange concepts to grasp than sort of grappling with those concepts -- how does this work or why does this work or should I use this function or should I use this method or what have you. I don't know. I think [inaudible] bit a wall when I'm sort of saying like, "Let's think about it through the user perspective, what does the user needs here." It feels like they want the safer answer of what's the correct solution here, how should this be refactored because you need a skinny controller or a fat model or whatever happens to be. I don't know if that's -- CHARLES: Right, like what's going to make my life easier, in a sense of if I'm going to be maintaining this code and it's important. It's very important. You want to be happy in your job, you want to be happy in your work and so, you want to have the skinny control or the fat model because it's going to lower the risk of pain in your future, supposedly. I definitely understand but that can't be the only incentive. I think it's what I'm hearing. The thought just occurred to me, I actually don't know that much about game development. I know the game industry is certainly has got its problems and I don't know much about the development culture inside the game industry. I do wonder what it's like because it does seem to be somewhat analogous to something like the car industry, where if you're a developer in the game industry, you're probably extremely focused on the user experience. You just have to be. It's so incredibly saturated and competitive for just eyeballs and thumb on controllers. Like I said, I don't really know anything about the game industry when it comes to development but I'm wondering if there's an analogy there. SAM: Yeah. It sounds strong to me and as much of my cousin who works in the game industry and I sort of taught game programming and work through a lot of it. The game industry has got these sort of user testing experience baked in and it kind of like repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. There's this sort of constant cycle of doing that and in the somewhat wider software industry, in a certain extent, pay lip service to that. CHARLES: The game industry, they live and die by that. The code lives and dies by how it actually plays with real users. SAM: Yes and it feels like in the general world, there's a lot more user interfaces that they just sort of struggle on whatever market dynamics people need to use, these existing vested interest, these banks, these supermarkets and what have you. I guess the market is too big, almost. It's not covered enough but do we really want our industry to be so cutthroat? I don't know. CHARLES: Yeah. We've kind of seen an example of a couple of industries: the car industry, the game industry which is kind of adjacent to where most software development happens but they have this concept of exhaustive user testing, kind of the pager duty if you will, where you get to experience that. So how do we, on our team and when I say our team, I mean anyone who happens to be listening, what's the equivalent of pager duty for the applications that we write? How can we plug ourselves into that cycle of user-ship so we can actually experience it in a real and repeatable way. SAM: In the work that we're doing with the NHS, they have a similar program. There's a lot of people who are working purely death by desk jobs but they do have a framework for us to go and observe in the hospitals and emergency rooms and so on. I guess the 'how can we achieve that outside of those clients who have those framework in place,' it seems like maybe we need a version of the cycle where a different person gets to be the product owner and tries to represent what the users are experience each week. I think almost though, it seems like we need more of that thing you mentioned, Charles which is like kind of being behind the one-way silvered mirror as some sort of framework that connects the loop between some of the individual developers are doing and their experience of how the users are seeing things. I think that's going to be difficult to introduce. Just to sort of back up a little bit with them, I see this kind of idea of Agile, which says, "Let's be using the software which is the thing that's kind of changing and evolving unless you already deployed and you are in the maintenance mode from the beginning and you're getting that thing out there so you have your one-week or two-week or three-week cycles where you keep on having touch points," and I think that's better than touching once every two years. As malleable as modern software potentially is, it's too sticky. It's like you were saying Charles before with that deploying or whatever, these are all gyros and so, you kind of need a really good mechanism for mocking out interfaces and having users experience and there's a couple of [inaudible], vision and there's something else that's sophisticated systems on the UX space where you can put together sort of a simulation of your interface relatively cheaply and you can run these things and then have sort of video capture of the users interacting with the system. I think the difficult part that we have in the software industry is we are in this thing, where there's not enough people wanting to be software developers, partly with I guess the cars and the games, is there's so many people want to be game designers that the industry can kind of set the terms but we're in this inverse situation here with software developers where software developers are so much in demand, they can kind of say, "Don't put too much pressure on me. I'll kind of like, I'll go off to different company." You know, we kind of have to like herd the cats, as they say into allowing these high powered software developers to go in the direction as they want to go in and so, it may be difficult to impose something like that, where you're getting software developers to really experience the end user's pain. I guess what one has to do is somehow, create a narrative to sell the excitement of the end user experience and the beautiful end user experience to software developers such that they're fully out of themselves and say, "Yes, I want to see how the users are using my software." Do you know what I mean? CHARLES: Yeah. TARAS:: Yeah. Because a lot of company had this process where there'll be a product manager, there'll be a designer, they'll design through mock ups and they'll just hand it over to developers to build. There could be some backend, some frontend. I think if you're doing that, there is no emotional engagement between the creators of the actual implementation and the people who are going to be using that. One way to do that is to try to add more of this actual 'however you do it.' You know, introduce more of the personal experience of the users to go along with the actual mock ups so that people understand like, there's actually be a person on the other end that are going to experience this and create some kind of emotional engagement between these two end. How you do that, I think that's a big question but I think if the organization is simply just throwing designs over to development, that's where the part of the problem is and trying to -- CHARLES: Well, actually, that's a fantastic point because ultimately, we've talked about emotional engagement and attachment to the software being a liability but the reason it exists and the reason it's intrinsic to the way we do things is that's how things get built. We get emotional attachment to it. It's the impetus. It's the driving force. It's literally the emotive force causes us to go forth and do a thing. It's why we're going to do it as a good job. Like you said TARAS:, if you just kind of throwing your tickets over the wall, there is no emotional engagement and so people will look for it wherever they can find it. In the absence of an emotional engagement, they will create their own which is good quality software that's 'clean' code because people need to find that meaning and purpose in their work. Maybe the answer is trying to really help them connect that emotional experience back to that purpose of the user experience, so that there is no vacuum to fill with kind of synthetic purpose, if you will. SAM: That's a great point. The charity in AgileVentures that I run, when we get things right, that's the thing that happens in that. We go for transparency at open source. We have these regular cycles where the charity client is using the software in a Hangout with us, with the developers who work on these things and the developers whether they're in a Hangout Live, whether they're watching the video a week later, they see the charity end user struggle with the feature that volunteer developers have been working on and they make that attachments. It's more than just 'I want to learn and level up in this thing.' It's like 'I want to make this feature work for this end user' and we're very lucky to have these charities who allow us to do that level of transparency. The difficulty often comes that I would see in our paid projects where I would love to be recording the key stakeholders using the system but for whatever political reason, you can't always get that. I think that process of actually connecting the developer with the person who using it and doing that reliably, so that they can have that empathy and then get that emotional connection. It's just tricky in the real world. CHARLES: It's very hard. One thing that we've deployed on past projects, which I think has worked fairly well is kind of putting a moratorium on product owners writing stories or writing tickets and actually having the developers collaborate with the product owners to write the tickets. In other words, instead of kind of catching a ticket that's thrown over the wall, really making sure that they understand what is the context under which this thing is being developed and then almost as in a code review sense, having the product owner saying, "Actually, the reason we're doing it is this," and having a review process where the developer is actually creating the story in support from the product owner. Because ultimately if they have that context, then coming up with the implementation is going to be much easier. It's really is about facilitating that upfront learning than being able to do the actual work. That's something but a lot of organizations are resistant to that because the product owners really want to say like, "No, I want it to go this way and I want to just hand this to a developer and I want them to do it." It's kind of wrestling in control and saying, "You've got veto power over this. You're the editor but we really want to make sure that you're on same page with the developer." In cases where we have been able to kind of have product owners make that shift where the developers are owning the story, oh sorry, or the primary authors of the story and more of the code reviewers of the story, if you will, implementation just seems to go so much more smoothly. The questions, the key points kind of come out of the front of the process and by the time you start actually working on the thing, the manager or the product owners has the confidence that the developer understands what is involved in making it work. SAM: Getting that done, what one will say something as tricky to do, I think in the ideal world, you have more of the developers involved in the design sprints or the design jams. The logistics of it are you can't really afford to have all those developers in all of those soft meetings where they are coding away. That sounds a great medium there. I think there's various organizations that do sort of their kick offs where their stories are kind of if not code designed, then there's cooperative voting on the complexities of the stories and making sure that they have folks understand the stories that they're working on and there might have some very different organization that are going to have different constraints on how much time that the organization feels, the different people can be allowed to spent on different sorts of activities. It's sort of tricky, isn't it? CHARLES: It is definitely tricky because any time that you allocate for people, that's the most expensive resource that you have, so you want to be smart about it. SAM: Which comes back to that issue then again of repurposing people. If you've got that feature that you go over 10 days, can you say to that person, "Can I switch you over onto this other thing for four days?" Maybe logically, that would be a better outcome for the sprint but maybe emotionally, that person is so attached to that. They are not fighting that front. The biggest trouble for me, I think over the last 30 years is I assumed that the logical stuff was tantamount. These things like the skinny controller and the fat model, we'd agreed on that that was correct and so, that's why I should pushed for, that's why I should fight for because it's the truth or whatever and actually, maybe I'll sling back around in another 30 years, you can choose your battles because the level of emotional pressure on people, then the whole thing just explodes and nothing gets done. You know what I mean? TARAS:: Sam, I have experienced something very similar and I think about this all the time. It's just how many perfect things are perfectly acceptable to people in using a different lens when I think about technology because the more skilled you are, I think quite often, people become more pedantic about how they approach things but in practice, the more things that you see that are not written but you realize how really imperfect they are and how in many ways, they fit the world very well, people use it. It's being used by many people in its imperfect state, so there is something like this hole between perfect implementation and the role of this perfect implementation in the world that I think that duality is really interesting. CHARLES: Yeah. There's a fantastic paper written by, I think it was Richard Garfield back in the late-90s or early 2000s called 'Less is More,' where he kind of talks about this exact tension and he calls it the MIT school of software and the Berkeley school of software and I think Garfield came from the MIT school but basically, the whole thing was saying the Berkeley School is actually right and the name of the paper is 'Worst is Better.' It's a really interesting essay but just talking about working things that are in people's hands will beat the best design every single time because those are the systems that get used and improved. There's a lot more to it than that. He talks about this exact fundamental tension and obviously, no system exists on either one of those perfect poles -- the MIT school or the Berkeley school. I think what he was trying to point out is that exact fundamental tension that we're talking about, the quest for the 'correct solution' and the quest for a solution. I'm actually have to go and re-read it. I remember it being an intriguing paper. SAM: I guess the thing that makes me think of is sort of related to philosophy value. I read recently about this, attachment to outcomes. I'm going to segue back but we've got this discussion in one of our teams about, this is sort of microservices versus monoliths and in reading this, I doubt microservices, which is actually pretty radical in some of its suggestions that they're talking about it in Greater Than Code Slack where it's sort of saying that actually, if you keep your microservices small enough, then a lot of the things like code quality become actually kind of irrelevant it sort of almost argues that a lot of the things that we like about the Agile and these things are our ceremonies that are only necessary because we trying to feed these monoliths. I'm not saying it is true. Iím just saying it's a pretty radical position that itís taking and it certainly, captures the minds of some people in our organization. Some things that I've been trying to make some simple changes just to smooth off some of the edges of the platform that we're working with and I had this respect of like, "No, we can't just make those simultaneous. We need to move to microservices." They're great and it will be perfect and they will allow expansion and so on and my immediate reaction is sort of, "I'm glad we don't have to build microservices because [inaudible]. It's all about attachment to outcomes, so am I attached trying to automate part of my week that I think will have some positive goals in the future? No one's got a crystal ball. That's only a guess on my part. If I've got some folks who are excited about doing this thing with microservices, maybe I should empower them in that and I should started a mobile microservices and we kind of playing with these set of framework and so on. It's interesting stuff as I'm working my way through the book. At the same time, while we've been doing that, I've actually delegated it to someone else to sort out this sort of thing and I've actually kind of addressed the problem what we would need the microservices for through a different mechanism but still, the microservices thing rolls on and I kind of think, "Well, is that all a complete waste?" But then actually maybe, in two years down the line, it will turn out and that will be a beautiful thing that will enable things. The further that I go on, the more I say, "I just don't know," and actually, if I can detach myself from caring too much about the outcomes one way or the other, I think it's both long and enjoy myself but it's a tricky thing when you got to pay the rent and pay the bills and so on. I don't see any resolutions to that. I love people being able to use things and get stuff done. I'm so excited about that and I guess, I will keep pushing all of the developers that I'm with towards trying to have a better empathy or understanding of their end users because I think software is more fun when you're connected to the end people who are using that. CHARLES: Absolutely. Microservices reminds me kind of the experience that we've had with the microstates library. Because we've kind of identified this one very small slice of a problem, a 'refactor,' it's basically a ground up rewrite. If you've got a library that is a couple of hundred lines of code but it presents a uniform API, then you can rewrite it internally. You can refactor it by doing a ground up rewrite and the cardinal rule or the cardinal sin is you're never supposed to do a rewrite. SAM: Yes and that's the microservices that they're saying. It's like you should rewrite everything all the time, basically. CHARLES: Exactly. You should always be rewriting it. SAM: Yeah. Should be able to throw it away because it's a microservice and it can be rewritten in a week and if you're throwing one away, it's only a week worth of work and you can keep on moving away. It is an amazing idea. CHARLES: I have to read that book. Anyhow, we're going to have you on again to explore -- SAM: Well, let's do another one on microservices. It was a great fun. Definitely, it's time to wrap up but I really appreciate you having me on the show and being able to discuss all these topics. CHARLES: Fantastic and I can't wait to talk about microservices. This might be the impetus that I need to finally actually go learn about microservices in depth. SAM: I'll recommend Richard Rodger's book, 'The Tao of Microservices.' CHARLES: All right. Fantastic. Anything we should mention, any upcoming engagements or podcast that you're going to be on? SAM: Iím always on the lookout for charities, developers, people who want to help, you can find us at AgileVentures.org. We're busy trying to help great causes. We're trying to help people learn about software development and getting involved in Agile and kind of like experience the real software in action, software development where you ideally interact with the end charity users and see how they're benefitting from the product. We love any support and help. You can get involved in that, if you want to give a little bit to open source and open development. We go for transparency. We have more mob programming sessions and scrum and meetings online/in-house every day, so just come and check out AgileVentures.org and maybe, see you [inaudible]. CHARLES: Yeah and if they wanted to say, reach out to you over email or Twitter, how would they get in touch? SAM: It's Sam@AgileVentures.org and I am at @tansakuu on Twitter. Hit me on Twitter or just at Sam@AgileVentures.org. CHARLES: All right. Well, fantastic. Thank you, Sam. Also, if you need any help with your frontend platform, you know where to get in touch with us. We're at @TheFrontside on Twitter or Info@Frontside.io. Thank you, TARAS:. Thank you, Sam and we will see everybody next time. Thank you for listening. If you or someone you know has something to say about building user interfaces that simply must be heard, please get in touch with us. We can be found on Twitter at @TheFrontside or over just plain old email at Contact@Frontside.io. Thanks and see you next time.

Guest: Saron Yitbarek: @saronyitbarek | bloggytoons | CodeNewbie | @CodeNewbies In this episode, Charles and Sam talk to Saron Yitbarek about her idea of mentorship, ideas for distributed learning for businesses to promote individual and company growth, and why it's important to take "digital sabbaths" on the regular. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. Transcript: SAM: Hey, everyone. Welcome to Episode 110 of The Frontside Podcast. My name is Sam Keathley. I'm a developer here at the Frontside and I will be your episode host. Today, we're here with Saron Yitbarek, discussing mentoring. She is the founder of CodeNewbie and the host of the CodeNewbie Podcast. Also with me as a co-host is Charles Lowell, who is also a developer at Frontside. Welcome Saron and welcome Charles. How are you guys doing? SARON: Thanks for having me. I'm doing pretty well. CHARLES: Hello. SAM: Today is going to be an interesting take on the mentoring talk. I mostly want to know first off, Saron, how do you feel about mentoring? What are your opinions on the mentor-mentee relationship or the value there? SARON: Yeah. I have lots of opinions on this topic. I think that the traditional structure of mentorship was usually looks like someone with less experience going to someone who has a lot more experience and say, "Will you be my mentor?" kind of like the children's book, 'Are You My Mother?' like 'Are you my mentor?' and then that person, that mother figure, that mentor looks after them and checks in on them and they have regular coffees and lunches and kind of steers them in the right, usually career-related direction. I don't think that's very realistic, to be honest. I think about why that might be. There's many different reasons. I think the fact that we're so, so, so networked and there's just so many different ways to get in contact with people and build relationships is a big reason but I think that that traditional mentorship model, that kind of one directional way of doing things is just not really needed and kind of overrated. I think that mentorship nowadays looks more like a mutually beneficial relationship, where I might reach out to someone who has more experience than me, for example in drawing, in art, not something I want to get to do but I know a crap-ton about podcasting, so I help you, you're my mentor in this specific area, in this specific topic but then, I get to be a mentor in this other thing that I'm really good at. I think it's those types of very focused topic-oriented, ideally two-way relationships that are more accurate and frankly, a more effective way of doing mentorship. SAM: Yeah, I actually agree with that. I am pretty new myself to development, only really been in this career for about a year now and I always kind of consider that mentoring relationship as a regression back to school days, where you have these -- SARON: Yeah, yeah. SAM: -- considered superior over you in some way, well, that's really not true in this community of developers and no matter where you are in development, it's all about working together and pairing. Working here has really showed me that value in paring, rather than like I have to look up to someone and regress back to feeling like a teenager in high school, like this person so good at this thing and they're the only one who can teach me. I definitely share that view of mentoring. I went to a boot camp one day when they were telling you like, "Oh, you got to find a mentor. You got to find a mentor," and I was like, "Well, but why? Why do [inaudible] together?" SARON: It's also a huge responsibility, a huge burden on the mentor too. Having to be, in a lot of ways, responsible for someone's career and trajectory and direction, that's a big responsibility. We don't have time for that, you know? On both ends, whether it's feeling like you're back in school or feeling like you have this huge responsibility, I think the traditional model isn't really the best model for either party. I think this idea of let's all learn together, let's be really focused on topics and problems that are very particular to what I'm doing, what I'm learning, what I'm trying to do. I think that works out. It feels healthier for both people. SAM: Absolutely. CHARLES: I wonder also too, it seems like it might be a little bit of a throwback to the days when people would spend 30 years in a single company or 30, 35 years in a single career where you have these people who are really these reservoirs of this intense tribal knowledge. It seems like people move around a lot more in their careers, not only in the company that they work for but also in the things that they're literally doing. I might be podcasting one day and producing a bunch of content and then, I might move into music or writing or other things like that. The careers seem to be broken apart a little bit more is one of the reasons why older models of advancement in those careers might not be as good a fit as they once were. SARON: Yes, absolutely. I'm obviously very biased because I'm in tech but when you think about the different roles that people have in tech, I feel like we're always wearing so many different hats. We have to, obviously code and be technical in that sense but we have to be really good communicators, a lot of us are speakers, we host podcasts, we organize conferences, we go to meetups, we're bloggers, we do so many other things, that this idea of, "I'm going to have a mentor who can help me in my role of being a developer," is just too big. You kind of meet people who are good at those individual pieces and those individual skills to get me to where I want to go. SAM: The whole idea of mentoring to me always reminded me of that whole Mr Miyagi relationship where you have this master of something and you're trying to learn from them. But in software development, I've learned that really no one is a master of anything because it's just changing so much and everything is so different. SARON: Yup, absolutely. CHARLES: The question is obviously, it seems like the idea that you're going to find one person who's going to represent the ideal confluence of every single skill set that you could hope to want, to be at some point in your career. That's looking more and more ludicrous. Is there a model where you can try and distribute those things, where you single out a large range of individuals? I guess the kind of what you were hinting at the beginning is that it is a lot more broken up, a lot more distributed but how do you pursue that, even if it is in a distributed manner? SARON: Yeah, that's a great question. One of the moments where I realize that the distributed model is really the only way that makes sense is, I think it was three years ago maybe. We thought about doing some kind of mentorship program in CodeNewbies, some type of way for people to link up and find people who can be there and guide in a way and we had people fill out this survey that basically said what do you want out of a mentor, what do you look for, what do you hope for to achieve but also asked how do you see yourself. Do you see yourself as a mentor, a mentee or both? It was really surprising that most people checked off both, which I thought was so interesting. It was so interesting to me that the same people who said, "I need help," with the same people who also said, "I also have help to give," and to me, that was such an amazing moment because I said, "Wow, it really isn't about this idea of I am the guide and I'm going to guide you." It's really about, "I have information expertise in one area and not in others." What I realize is there really isn't a mentor model. I think it's more of a culture of being helpful, which probably sounds really cheesy but it's true. I really think it's about saying, "I know how to do a thing. I'm going to go on Stack Overflow and answer questions. I'm going to go on Twitter and answer questions. I'm going to write blog post and share with the world." I think the real model, the real distributed mentoring model is us as individuals saying, "I just learned how to do a thing," or, "I just figured out how to do a thing well. Let me capture that. Let me capture it in a response, in an answer, in a forum, in a post and let me share that," and the more we do that as individuals, the more we have this huge amazing aggregate of knowledge that can serve as mentorship for all of us. SAM: I like the touch on that. That's kind of the idea behind Codeland Conference, where everybody thought they might be new to development and everyone is just sharing their knowledge. You might feel you really knew about it but you know a lot more than you think you do and you could still help. SARON: Yup, exactly and that's the whole idea, even the Twitter chats. When we first started, I don't have all the answers, I don't claim to, I don't really want that responsibility but I know there are a lot of people who do and I know a lot of people who have resources and opinions and who can help out. One thing that people do is they'll DM us and say, "I'm having a hard time with this." Sometimes, it's a very technical problems. Sometimes, it's a general 'I'm having a hard time getting a job,' which I do like high level question and I never answer them. I always say, "Tweet us and we'll retweet it and we'll get the whole community involved and we can have a rich conversation around it," and that's really been our motto, our philosophy. I see what they do with mentorship. If you have a mentor, you're not obligated, I guess to listen to them but the idea is kind of that you should. There is one person and you should listen to them because they know more than you. I think that's just not really fair and instead, I like to think that there are lots of different ways to do things and it's up to you to decide what's best for you and in order for you to decide, you have to have a lot of options. With Codeland, with the Twitter chats, no matter what skill level you're at, no matter how confident you feel in your coding abilities, you do have something to offer. Let's pull that out. Let's put it on the table and let's see who you can help today. SAM: That's a perfect way of introducing someone to the idea of helping or getting help from a community, rather than an individual because you never want to take one person's word as gospel on something you just know nothing about. SARON: Yeah, exactly. SAM: You can sound confident talking about something and it can be the total wrong answer but if you're seen as someone superior or someone who knows what they're doing -- SARON: And you can sell it. SAM: Yeah. You can be the best snake oil salesman in the world. SARON: Absolutely. For the CodeNewbie podcast, we do short questions at the end of each episode and one of the questions -- my favorite question -- is what's the worst advice you've ever received. I love that question because I started by saying, I think that people love giving advice. I think people love asking for advice and the assumption again is if I give you advice, then I probably know more and you should probably listen to me but that's not always true. I want people to be comfortable making their own decisions and deciding for themselves. "This may sound like it could work and this may sound like a good idea, generally speaking, but for me, it's probably not a good fit. It's probably not what's best for me," and to be comfortable rejecting advice and that was kind of the reason why I started that question, it's my favorite question and it's so interesting how much advice is good. It's kind of generic but it's a good advice. It's an advice like, "Don't quit. Keep going," which maybe a good idea and maybe you do need to quit, so being open to rejecting advice, I think is really important and that one of my favorite questions. SAM: In your experience, what is the best way to reject advice? Because when you're a new developer, when you're new at anything and you're seeking advice from a community or from a person, you don't want to come off as rude or maybe you're feeling... I don't know, not very confident but you think the advice that you were given is just bad advice. What would your advice be? I guess, what would your advice be on this advice? For your perspective, what would be a good advice to reject advice that you think is just wrong? SARON: Number one is when I ask people for advice, I try to think about and try to know upfront, do they have the same values that I do? Do they have the same worldview? Do they have the same goals? Because that's the thing too. Oh, my God, I got so much unsolicited advice. It's amazing. I've actually stopped just saying to people my ideas or what's on my mind because I know as soon as I say, "I'm thinking about this," I'll get a whole slew of unsolicited advice and I'm like, "I didn't ask for that." What I've learned is first to kind of figure out are we even on the same page because if my goal is to be a developer, if your goal is to be -- the only thing I could think of is a juggler, I don't know why -- a juggler and I ask you for a career advice, I'm going to go ahead and safely assume that what you have to say is probably not as applicable to me and so, number one is kind of identifying that. But number two is if they say something that just I know is not going to work or I've already tried, I'll just nod and say, "Thank you very much," and kind of go about my day. I don't think you have to declare whether or not you going to take it. I think just acknowledging and I think the people that give advice, I think they're trying to be helpful, they have good intentions, usually. Usually it's, "I'm trying to save you from making mistakes that I made and I'm trying to help you get to learn a little faster." I always appreciate it but knowing that I can say, "Thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your perspective," but know that I don't have to go off [inaudible]. SAM: That's actually very similar to my tactic. Just not like, "Thank you. Thank you so much. Don't talk to me ever again." No. SARON: And disappear, yeah. SAM: I'm like the wind. With this pressure that either new developers or seasoned veterans are feeling about the mentor relationship, because I feel like a lot of senior developers that I've spoken with or people who've been in the business for a long time, feel like they should be mentoring or they need to take on that responsibility but there's always that hint of dread in their voice when they say about like, "Oh, I should be doing this." I always feel like it's okay to not do that. I never really understood why it was so high value to have this one-on-one relationship with an individual when you're not in school because it just feels so like... Not childish but childish. SARON: Yeah, that's one of things, frankly that I love about the tech community and also do not understand about the tech community. It's such a giving knowledge sharing community, whether you do it in a tactful way or not in a tactful way but the idea of giving back and paying it forward is just so deep. It's so, so deep that even when I've been coding for only a couple of months, I still felt this, I don't want to call pressure because pressure kind of sounds a little negative but I definitely felt this expectation that I was supposed to be blogging, supposed to be sharing and shouting and helping and doing these pay it forward type things. I don't really know where that comes from. Maybe that comes from the culture of open source, maybe that's where it kind of penetrate. I'm not sure but there's this huge need, desire, idea that we're supposed to be giving back and for that, I am very, very, very grateful. But I think that acknowledging that if you're someone who wants to be a mentor that you can do it simply by being available, literally being available, the going to be hashtag is super, super active even when we're not doing our Twitter chats and people use it to ask for help, they used it to ask questions. If you're feeling particularly giving or extra helpful that day, go on Twitter and check the hashtag and see what questions people are asking. Things like that or just super helpful and don't require a huge amount of time and effort. There's a lot of small ways to help out. That may not seem like a big deal to you but for the person who's asking for help, who has been banging their head against the wall, it's hugely valuable. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. Up until I went to my first conference this year, I didn't realize how supportive and important Twitter is. You know I always kind of considered it to be like another social media platform that I don't understand because I'm 84 years old and I just don't get it. It's been so uniquely helpful and in ways like Stack Overflow or even issues in GitHub, it just aren't. You can get so many more perspectives, so many different perspectives from people. SARON: Yeah, absolutely. Twitter has been amazing exactly for that. It's just an efficient way to crowdsource opinions and crowdsource perspectives and when you get your question answered and someone else answers it, it doesn't only benefit you the way it would if you email someone but it benefits anyone else who comes across that page, so yeah, it's hugely valuable. CHARLES: I remember the first moment I had kind of like that, a light bulb went off in my head where I was working on some really weird project that was using some strange wiki for its content storage and I was getting frustrated and I just tweeted about it and then the CTO of that company just immediately answered my question and I was like, "What?" You know, it was years ago and definitely, I was like, sound of explosion, that is where my mind exploded. I was not seeking help. I was just literally being kind of a jerk and venting frustration and lo and behold, the answer for my problem descended from the Twitter clouds. It was incredible. SARON: The Twitter clouds are the best clouds, usually CHARLES: Twitter is very... What's the word? It's very split down in the middle. SARON: Noodie? Yeah, there you go. SAM: There's this live feedback, so there's no buffer of emotion there, you know? SARON: Yeah. SAM: It's like, "Oh, this thing that you said, it made me mad. I'm going to tell you about it right now." Charles, I know that you had mentioned before that you think mentoring would be a good idea for Frontside and then, after all this discussion, have your views stayed the same? What are you feeling about that? CHARLES: As kind of the person who's like the grizzled veteran in the software world, it's definitely something that I've kind of whipped myself over the back. It's like feeling like it's something that we should do but I think it comes from the idea that people come here and we want to make sure that they're getting access to the learning that they need and the ways, in which they can level themselves up that they need, that's the kind of the prime motivator there. I always perceived mentorship as some vehicle through which to achieve that. It's something that I've heard. Obviously, we don't have a mentorship program at our company. It's something I felt that we should always be investigating. I've always felt maybe a little bit bad that we didn't have it but it's also something that I really struggled with in my career because I can't really say that I've ever had a mentor, so I don't really know what that relationship would look like but I do have a lot of people that I learned a lot of critical things from. I can look at it as kind of these seminal moments in my career, where like light bulbs went off and a lot of the time, they're associated with an individual and that individual and the thing that they taught me or multiple things that they taught me, are still with me. I have those experiences, which have been phenomenal and critical to my development as a software developer, so I guess it's just part and parcel of that impulse that you're describing to pay it forward, to realize that when you walked into the building, the lights were on and the walls were standing and the air was at a comfortable climate temperature. As you live there, you realize that there are people involved in actually, doing that maintenance and providing the building for you and the space for you to become aware of your world and then, when new people walk into the building, you want to provide them the same experience that you had. I guess that's my take on. That's the kind of thing that I would want to provide, so the question is like what does mentoring or mentoring 3.0, as we're maybe talking about in this conversation, how does that fit into that? How would you implement something like this, some sort of distributed learning in a company? I don't know. Maybe, it's not worthwhile. Maybe it is. SAM: I think it focuses more on that pair programming because when you're thinking back and you have all these people, like you have names of people that taught you something, it's multiple names. It's not just this one guy taught me all of these things. Actually, within a company, that mentoring just comes from pairing with your coworkers, seeing what different hats everybody wears and then, trying them on every now and again but not necessarily taking that individual's word as gospel, you know? CHARLES: Right and hopefully, that's not something that we've advocated for. Maybe, it's how do you introduce structure around that, to make sure that the proper ferment is happening, so that you have novel pairings and make sure the ideas that are flowing are flowing around the entire company and not just through certain set channels. SARON: Yeah. The other part of that is if you create structure around what it looks like to share outside. You know, pair programming is interesting because it's kind of one-on-one and it's hopefully, I have something important or bright to say in our pairing session. Maybe, I don't. Maybe I'm having a dull day. Maybe, I'm having a bad day but this really give you the same opportunity to take a moment and say, "What do I know? What do I want to share? What do I want to put together?" It does really give you a chance to prepare and gather yourself. It's kind of in the moment. I think having another opportunity where you can gather yourself is important and so, that might look like brown bag lunches, where everyone takes a turn and has to do a little lightning talk. That's usually the opportunity to say, "I have five minutes. I'm going to share something." Everyone has a turn, which means that the company's literally saying everyone has something to say. It's only five minutes, only a few minutes, so hopefully it won't be too terrifying if you're not big on public speaking and it's your co-worker so hopefully, it won't be terrifying because it's people you know and not total strangers. You know, a format like that, where there's structure but the company is saying, "We're going to give you time to think about what you're good at and what you know and to share that is good." I think another way to do that is by setting time aside for blogging. If your company can say, "Thirty minutes out of the week, we're going to take some time to write down five things I learned, to write down one cool thing I learned, post it publicly, post it internally about this expectation that everyone should be writing, everyone should be sharing, which also says everyone has something to share." I think those are two ideas and two ways that we can create a culture of sharing and a culture of distributed mentorship, where everyone has an opportunity to find the thing that they're excited about and specific ways to share it. SAM: Yeah, that's excellent. CHARLES: I hope you're grinning as much as I am, Sam because at least in the first half, you basically described our Lunch and Learn process. It's a little bit more than five minutes but I think another thing that clicked for me there is making sure that having a variation of expectations of quality or something like that because I feel like where we do really well is in the Lunch and Learn thing. We have a process very similar to what you describe but where we're not so good is maybe with blogging. I wonder if part of that is we just hold ourselves to such a high standard of what it is. The idea that we could throw together a blog post in 30 minutes, I love that idea but it means you really have to be willing to just say, "You know what? We're going to get it out there and we're going to make it bite-sized and the expectation is that we're not going to be writing some gigantic essay that's going to shake the industry to its core every Friday at three o'clock." There are things and if we can, I shouldn't say a reduction in quality but maybe a reduction in scope so that you can say like, "We're going to carve out 30 minutes or an hour and we're going to pick a topic that scope-appropriately for that." SARON: Absolutely and I think that knowing that you only have 30 minutes or maybe it's an hour -- an hour is probably a little bit more realistic -- but knowing that you only have an hour also forces scope. You can't write a book about JavaScript in an hour. You just can't, so the fact that by the end of that hour, you have to have something to turn in is a great way to force people to focus and do something really small and really bite-sized. The other thing is I don't think that after the hour, you need to publish it publicly. It could be, you need to turn it into someone else, to edit and look over for you and give you feedback. It's not quite ready yet but it's a solid first draft and the ideas that after that first person edits it, then it's on its way to being published. I think there's different ways to manage a scope without also making this scary thing where I have to say something for the Earth to shake. There's different things that we can do around that. CHARLES: I'm wondering what other forms of sharing that we can fit into our workday. I guess, the other baseline is just making sure that you're always... What is it? ABT -- always be tweeting. It's so easy to be write-only, not even engaging conversations but just throwing ideas out into the void. SAM: I think holding a discussion with your coworkers like if you're in an environment where you can work face to face or are constantly online, if you're more of a remote worker, I think just having a conversation with anybody, rather than just putting your idea out there, putting it out there with someone who can actually provide real time feedback in a more friendly way, then I think some people on Twitter could be. Because they're your coworkers and they're not going to call you rude names, you know? CHARLES: Right and you're also going to know, hopefully the whole trust and intent and 'are we on the same page?' that question is answered even before the text is written. SAM: Right. SARON: Yeah, absolutely and with those conversations, this actually mean [inaudible] that we do. We do like a show and tell every week and the idea is that we're both always learning random things, usually related things but sometimes, totally random but still very interesting and it will take 30 minutes to just share what we've learned. Sometimes, they'll also turn it into a blog post. Sometimes, it's just a knowledge sharing opportunity. I'm not really sure but it's a good window of opportunity to say, "We are learning and we're sharing and we have something of value to bring." The great thing about something like a show and tell is that it doesn't necessarily have to come from my brain. It doesn't have to be like, "I have a great idea that I'm going to share." It could be, "I read about this cool idea." It can be, "I heard about this cool thing that we can try and we can apply," but I still kind of credit, you know? Like I get credit for being the value bringer but the burden isn't on me every week to come up with the idea. That's a nice balance, to kind of create space to share and to promote this knowledge share and if it comes from you, it's great but if not, you're still helping other people. CHARLES: I have a question that may or may not be related in here. This has just kind of occurred to me because this is definitely something that I experienced, where I get into a mode where I become overwhelmed by the ideas that people are sharing and so, what's the balance? Because usually, we're out there searching for ideas and we're searching for novel things so that we can include them in our work, in the things that we want to do and accomplish, whether be that in tech or elsewhere. What's the balance of being heads down and being like, "You know what? I'm going to be closed to new ideas right now." Because they can be distracting, right? The [inaudible], that's actually a phenomenon and so, how do you protect yourself from sharing? What's the balance? SARON: My solution was to move to San Diego. That was my solution to that. I actually moved from New Jersey and I worked in New York City... How long has it been? Was it only been a year? Oh, my goodness, and now, I'm in San Diego and it was so interesting because that ended up being a really nice side effect. I didn't move specifically for that reason but when you are commuting in New York City every single day, there's so much going on all the time. There's just so many ideas and events and meet ups and companies and people. It's just so much. I think that it was a great place to be in my early 20s when I really just wanted to soak up everyone else's ideas and I didn't really have opinions of my own at that point and it's a great way to just kind of absorb and be this awesome sponge in the big city but after a while, I kind of realized, maybe I have my own ideas and my own thoughts, so moving to San Diego, which is a much, much, much quieter place, has been a really great way to reflect and sit with my own thoughts and feelings and opinions and just kind of focus on that. I understand that everyone can move to San Diego, although I highly recommend it but I think in that way of carving out like... What do they call it? Do they call it a tech sabbath? A digital sabbath? Am I saying that right? CHARLES: Yeah. Maybe. It sounds about right. SARON: Yeah. I came across that term recently but this idea of one day out of the week, I'm not going to be on the interweb. I'll just not going to do it. Maybe, even the whole weekend, oh, my goodness and saying, "I'm just going to stay away from things. I'm just going to create a little space for me to think and reflect." I think when I don't have the whole day and what I need is just like a moment, I find that writing things down is a great way -- a really, really good way of doing it -- even if I'm taking notes or from doing a strategy session or if I'm trying to make a decision. Usually, I'll start typing and what I've started to do recently is to say, "I'm not going to type. I'm going to plot in a notebook and I'm just going to write things down," and because writing is slower than typing, it forces you to just think. It forces you to be alone with your thoughts, for better or worse and it forces you to really just to think about what you're doing or what you're saying and reflect. It's a really, really great meditative exercise that I found. You know, finding little ways to build in an escape from the noise, ideally on a regular basis, I think is a really healthy thing to do. SAM: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. My normal method of sort of closing everybody off is I just sketch out ideas because I'm an artist. I come from that sort of perspective as I can make a drawing out of feelings more so than I can write them out. If I'm feeling really overwhelmed or if I'm trying to make sense of some information that people have given me, I just sketch it out and I think that's something that doesn't really get talked about a lot in the whole community because sometimes it's always about eat, breathe, live, code, you know? We have different skills. You have other things that you're good at that's not just code. When I was at React Rally, a lot of people were in the music and then finding a way to separate yourself from the entirety of it is definitely one of the better ways to make sense of your situation. SARON: Yup, absolutely. CHARLES: Yeah. Sleep? It's a great way to take a break. SARON: Sleep is so good. SAM: On my top three things: sleep. CHARLES: Yeah. SARON: Yeah. As a kid, I never ever thought I would look forward to my bedtime ever. You know, it's my favorite part of the day. CHARLES: Yeah but like sleep, writing, drawing, I always forget. Like when I'm caught up in a problem, I always forget that engaging in some other activity -- I like to walk in the place next to my house. I like to play my ukulele. Engaging in those activities is almost on the critical path to solving the problem and I always forget it. I think we always forget it but sometimes, you can be so frustrated and you can just shut it off, be completely alone and there is some magical process that's probably going on in your brain. I don't know exactly what it is but you come back and the answer is just sitting there, waiting practically on your desk. SARON: Absolutely. One thing, we recently moved a couple of weeks ago to a new place and it's a little bit bigger and so, I had the opportunity to unpack boxes and buy furniture that we didn't really need before or just trying to make it more of a home. I've been using it as a really great opportunity to be productive and to feel productive but not be in front of a screen. Sometimes, I even like save tasks for myself like, "I'm going to wait till the evening to put together this shelf because I'm going to need a moment to just be away from my computer." I have a plan around it so it ended up being such that, I think about every day, there's one little home activity thing that I can do, whether it's cleaning or cooking or assembly or movie or something with the home, that allows me to, because I'm not really a hobby person. I don't really do hobbies because it just feels, like no judgment on people who do. I know people get really into their hobbies but it just feels like, "Why?" You know, like, "Why?" like, "For what?" But when I put a shelf together, it's like, "I'm going to use this for books." You know what I mean? Like you're very purposeful, so home activities has been my way of carving out that space away from the screen but also feeling like I'm doing something productive, I'm getting things done. SAM: Something that I would recommend to anybody who doesn't really have that, I'm going to step away from the computer and do this thing. Something that's kind of helping me was the Pomodoro Technique, which if you're not familiar with that, it's basically a time management thing where you set your timer for work like for 25 minutes, 30 minutes or whatever and then, when the timer goes off, you take an allotted break for five minutes, 10 minutes, just so you're not doing the thing that you've been doing for the last 30 minutes. SARON: Yes, absolutely. That's a great one. SAM: My advice is to implement that if you don't have a thing, that you use for your cleaner, I guess. SARON: Oh, you want to hear some really terrible but effective advice? SAM: Yes. SARON: And this is what I found out very accidentally is if you have a really, really crappy office chair that hurts -- CHARLES: Oh, man. I'm sitting in one right now. It's literally a rocking chair from the 1800s. SARON: That sounds awesome. CHARLES: Yeah, it does sounds awesome. SARON: But if you have a crappy office chair, that can be a really great way to get away from your screen because after about an hour, your thighs will hurt and your back will hurt and you will be forced to get up and walk around. It's so funny because I have a pretty crappy office chair and my back has been hurting for so long and I just thought, "That's life." That's like my [inaudible] for myself. I'm like, "That's just how life is, my backs hurt," and then it got to a point where I was like, "I need to go and talk to someone," and as soon after that, I spoke to a conference and I was basically up and down away from any type of chair for like four or five days straight and magically, my back pain went away and I was, "Oh, my God. It's that freaking chair," and ever since I realized it, I started noticing it. I would sit down and I would go, "I'm nearing the one- Oh, there are my thighs. There they go. They're in pain." There's another great cheap life hack: get a crappy chair, after about an hour, everything will hurt. You will be forced to go do some jumping jacks for about five, 10 minutes and there's your additional sabbath. There you go. SAM: In Charles' case, probably a haunted office chair. Yeah, that's an excellent advice. I never really noticed that. Now, I'm going to. CHARLES: You know what funny is, I actually didn't even notice it but I do. I never used to get up and go on walks before or spend as much of the day standing as I do and I'm actually completely and totally oblivious to it but I think, I realize like I can attribute a lot of that to the terribly, uncomfortable chair, in which I sit on every day. SARON: I have this awesome habit of sitting cross-legged, which apparently is a very, very bad idea, my physical therapist told me, so I make it worse for myself. If you don't feel like you have enough screen time, just sit cross-legged and that will accelerate the pain process. SAM: As you said that, I am currently sitting cross-legged in my desk chair. SARON: Yeah! SAM: That's just how I sit in chairs. My legs are too short to reach the floor. SARON: Me too. I just find it so comfortable. I don't know and I'm so happy to hear that you also do this because I'm like, "Am I just weird?" because I love sitting cross-legged. It's so comfortable. It makes me really happy. SAM: No, I verified 100%, that's how I sit in all chairs. SARON: Yeah, the same. CHARLES: I can do one leg. SARON: Only one? Man, you need to work on that. SAM: -- [inaudible]. That's going to be the end of our podcast. Again, thank you Saron for coming on and having this awesome conversation about mentoring. Definitely check out the website CodeNewbie.org. We are the Frontside. We build software that you can stick a future on. Hit us up if you're looking for help building your next big thing and also, hit us up on Twitter. Hit Charles, myself, Frontside and Saron on Twitter. SARON: Thank you so much for having me. This is awesome. This is fun. SAM: Also, I want to give another thanks to Mandy, our producer for producing this lovely episode and all of our episodes. If you have any questions for us, hit us up on Twitter. Any ideas for future topics, any thoughts you have on this great conversation, let us know and we'll talk to you all later.

Sam Cates: @SamCates | GE Ventures Show Notes: 02:01 - What Corporate Investing Looks Like 03:48 - Presenting Ideas For Funding 09:01 - Democratizing Venture Capital 10:17 - ICOs and Cryptocurrency 13:53 - Evaluating Companies to Fund 21:09 - Investing in Potential Competitors 24:42 - Looking For Funding as a Company 28:04 - “Mentoring” Ideas/Companies 30:07 - Monitoring/Evaluating Company Metrics 32:47 - Putting Together a Basic Business Plan 36:05 - Making Choices: Investor and Company-wise Resources: Resin.io Series A, B, C Funding Angel Investor Seed Money Initial Coin Offering (ICO) AngelList Crunchbase Fred Wilson's Blog: (AVC.com) Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 92. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and I am your podcast host-in-training kicking it off in 2018. [Inaudible] of our first episode. We've got Elrick also joining us. Hello, Elrick. ERICK: Hey. How you doing, Charles? CHARLES: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. You having a good new year so far? ERICK: Yeah, it's great. There's a snowstorm passing through today. So, I'm going to break in the New Year shoveling. CHARLES: Let us know if we need to parachute in some shovels for you. ERICK: [Laughs] CHARLES: And then with us today, we have Sam Cates on the show who is… a lot of times we have developers on the show. He's actually a venture… what would you describe yourself as? SAM: Yeah, I'd say I'm a venture investor with GE Ventures. So, on the corporate investing side. CHARLES: Okay. Now, I didn't even know that GE actually had a corporate investing side. Is that pretty common for a large company? SAM: You know, it's becoming increasingly common. I think in 2015 there was actually a peak of activity coming from corporate venture capital groups. And I've only seen the number of firms escalate since then. Although the dollars invested stays pretty consistent. But if you look at a lot of big companies, particularly in the common tech world like Cisco, Google, Intel, they have historically had large venture firms inside of themselves. And then GE and a lot of other industrials have since followed suit. We've been at it for about five years and we see it increasingly. CHARLES: And so, have you been with them since the beginning? SAM: Yeah, just about. I've actually been with GE for about nine years now. So, I was on the operating side in a number of the industrial businesses before I joined GE Digital and then GE Ventures. And so, it was just after GE Ventures got kicked off. CHARLES: Oh, that's exciting. So, what is it… now, we actually got connected to you through one of the companies that you actually invested in. It's something that we use and we're very interested in. Why don't you tell us a little bit about what your job looks like on a day-to-day basis and what companies you invest in? SAM: Sure. I really focus a lot of my time on Internet of Things companies. So, that's a really big trend that GE has been a part of and a leader in over the past few years. And so, we spend time investing in companies that are directly working with GE or playing in similar spaces to us. And so, Elrick and I actually met at a hackathon for one of those companies. And I always like to use that as an example because it's a good one, to demonstrate the kinds of investments we make. And that's Resin.io. I know you guys have done an episode or two talking with them. But that for example was a ‘Series A' investment that we made about two years ago. And then company essentially helps developers build connected products. And so, that's something that GE cares a lot about. We had people inside the company who found the product and loved it and that's actually how we met. CHARLES: When you say ‘Series A', can you give a brief overview of what the different stages of funding of a startup might be? SAM: Yeah, yeah, certainly. So, maybe if I take a step back and answer your original question on what I do on a day-to-day basis. A lot of my job is meeting with all kinds of new companies, whether they be early stage, usually things that would be seed funding – and we'll go into what some of those things mean – all the way through the late stage which would be companies that are maybe on the border of going public or are already profitable. And so, if we go into what kinds of investors there are, I think that's probably an interesting subject to talk more about. But they're a whole wide variety. When I said ‘Series A' I just meant a company that was at what we would call the ‘Series A' stage, and the letters act just like you'd expect. So, there's ‘Series A', ‘Series B', ‘Series C', and so on. And they all, they tend to look similar at those stages in terms of sizes and progress. But there is a range, and no two company is the same. ERICK: In today's world, it's very easy for people to create a startup. They can write some code and they can either come up, get a Raspberry Pi or some microcontrollers or whatever it is, and either do an IoT startup or a software startup. Now, when you get to the point where you have an idea and you kick it off initially, how do you go about then saying, “Let me get some funding.” How do you even get funding? SAM: Sure, yeah. And to your point, there's a huge range of technologies that are making it easier to start almost any kind of company. It's a great time to be an entrepreneur, whether it be 3D printing for hardware products, all the technologies that you were mentioning, AWS, all this stuff is contributing to reducing the cost to allow companies or people to create companies. And so, once people have gone out and experimented with some of these things and built what they think is a product the market wants, often if they require more money which may be for acquiring customers through things like Facebook Ads or simply doing further product development to make sure the product is somewhere that more customers could use it, often they can't finance it just through their own revenue. And so, there are typical stages and types of investors that people go approach looking for money. ERICK: Okay. What are those Series? I remember you mentioned something like a ‘Series A' investment. So, initially when you're looking for an investment, is that where you would… category you would be in as a startup looking for investment? They would consider you a ‘Series A' startup? SAM: Well, I want to caveat and just say every company is different. So, I see companies that… ERICK: Gotcha. SAM: Start out at a much later stage because they're able to bootstrap to that point. And bootstrap is the word that I use for a company that funds its own investment. They get paid by customers and they use that money to continue building the product. But if I talk about the range of types of financing a company may go for, I think the way that most people categorize this, first people often raise from friends and family or angels. And so, it's just money to get off the ground and maybe to pay the rent while you're doing some of that experimenting we were talking about. And then commonly after that is a seed round. And a seed round tends to be a little more institutional. So, it's maybe a more formal set of funds who exclusively invest in companies that are often pre-revenue but they have a product, or at least the beginnings of a product. And so, that's a really common category of investors. And then you get to ‘Series A' and the letters can escalate from there to the point where… ERICK: Gotcha. SAM: There can be some later rounds when they'd be ‘Series F' or even beyond, I guess. CHARLES: Right. So now, what are generally the terms on these? So, for my angel investments or my seed investments, I assume what distinguishes these is essentially how much ownership of the company you're getting for how much money. And those kind of, those change as the product solidifies. SAM: Yeah. CHARLES: And the potential becomes more visible. SAM: Yeah, it's a wide… and again, these are all… the venture is a world of ranges. There's a really wide difference between the two ends of any spectrum. So, I'll just talk in generalities though. So, I think the latest report that I've seen at least for an annual basis was PitchBook's 2016 report. And they were laying out some of the medians. So, for seed stage deals I believe it was something like one and a half million dollars raised was the median on a pre-money valuation of six and a half million. And that just means the company is worth, investors say the company is worth six and a half million dollars today. And we're going to give you a million and a half dollars invested at that price. CHARLES: So roughly, a sixth… they would take a sixth of the company then in return? SAM: Yeah. CHARLES: Okay. ERICK: Ah. CHARLES: Okay. ERICK: Okay. CHARLES: I see. That makes sense. So now, back to Elrick's original question. If I'm, I've got my product. Or I've got this idea. I've written some code. I've turned it into a prototype product. Maybe I'm moving through these various stages. What type of VC am I going to be looking for? How do I actually find the right type to be talking to? I guess what types are there even? SAM: Yeah. And one part… we mentioned a lot of the technologies that are making it easier to start companies. One part that also makes it easier is the proliferation of financing options, whether it be even more investors in these traditional structures we talked about like seed and A. And then there are other options that are emerging, things like you see a lot of people raising through what they call Initial Coin Offerings or ICOs. And then there are also things like AngelList which are attempting to democratize the investing process, make it more accessible. So traditionally, a lot of the seed A, B investors, they tend to be network-based, which can be a challenge for a lot of people that are maybe not in Silicon Valley or not a part of that network already. And so, one thing you can do is obviously go search databases that are on the web, things like Crunchbase. It's a free resource. It has a lot of deal history for investments that people have made. And it's a great resource for knowing, “Okay, this investor cares about these things.” And then in addition to that, there are also platforms that people can put their companies on. Like I mentioned, AngelList. And that's somewhere that you can list your company, you can meet investors, and they actually have some backend to actually support the investing process as well. CHARLES: So, there were two acronyms in there, or two specific technologies. [Chuckles] CHARLES: You talked about ICOs which I assumed that you said it was Initial Coin Offering. Not like insane clown offering. [Laughter] CHARLES: Which I would love to see. And then AngelList. So traditionally, these had been very network-based which brings to mind the capitalists of Old England or whatever where there's a bunch of people with cigars in a room and I realize it's not actually like that. What are each of these things? The AngelList and the ICOs? And how do they democratize that process? SAM: It's funny you should mention the old times. I think a good example of that is there are a lot of stories about the founding of General Electric. It's a 126-year-old company and back then it was largely, it was Thomas Edison working with I believe was JP Morgan to get it off the ground. And so, today there's still a bit of the network piece you're mentioning. But I think of AngelList as a place that you can essentially market to investors. If you think about the types of people that are on there, it's people that are looking to invest money in early stages in startups. And I'm not a big user of AngelList because I tend to be investing a little bit later. So, I really recommend anybody who's interested, just go check it out. It's I believe just Angel.co. CHARLES: And what about an ICO? SAM: So, an ICO is a more modern one. And it's kind of fraught with some concerns around regulations and transparency today. But I think since Thanksgiving there's been a massive wave of conversation about cryptocurrencies. And an ICO is essentially a way of creating your own cryptocurrency. The way I always explain to people, I love the analogy that people make around, think of it like I want to go build an amusement park. And in that amusement park, everything, rides, food, everything, is going to be denominated and payable in Sam-bucks. CHARLES: Ah, right. SAM: And… [Chuckles] And so, my options… CHARLES: [Laughs] That makes sense. SAM: Yeah. And my options are I can go to a bank and borrow money, I can go to investors and say, “Hey, give me the 10 million dollars it's going to take to build it,” or I can just go to the people in the place where I'm building it and say, “You want this amusement park to exist? Why don't you pre-buy these Sam-bucks?” And each one is going to cost a dollar today. And we create this universe of Sam-bucks and they're essentially valuable once you can use them in the park. And there are certainly exceptions. There are other versions of cryptocurrencies and other uses for them. But that's a conversation for another day. CHARLES: Ah, mm. SAM: I think that's just a good, easy way to understand it. CHARLES: Oh no, I like that. It's like, well not quite like carnival tickets. But yeah, that's something that everyone's familiar with. Same thing as the Xbox Marketplace. Very similar thing. So, the idea is you would buy a bunch of Sam-bucks… you would get them at pennies on the dollar, so to speak, today. SAM: Yeah, right. By the time it opens, maybe a hotdog would cost just one Sam-buck. CHARLES: Right. SAM: Whereas, when it's coming in, we'd have to spend five dollars to get that one Sam-buck. Right, the idea being those people who got in early will be rewarded. And you can see it's like a further extension of a Kickstarter or something else that you're allowing people to pre-buy into a network. CHARLES: Right. Right, okay. I can see that. ERICK: That's very interesting. [Laughs] CHARLES: And so, it's got a range of options too, because if you're really interested in the services you can go ahead and spend them on the services and get a lot of value that way or you can actually trade for someone who does want the services if you don't. SAM: I think that's exactly right. And it's just, the one that I think I would just caveat is there is a huge amount of concern at the moment, and maybe concern is too strong a word, but uncertainty around one, what are the value of these coins, these tokens? And two, how will governments react to something that looks potentially like a security or a currency? And so, that's something that still is being worked through. And even though they haven't figured that out there's still a massive amount of money being raised through these ICOs. CHARLES: [Laughs] So, it does beg the question. Why is a cryptocurrency necessary? Why not just use Xbox Marketplace points? Why not just say, “Here are Sam-bucks.” SAM: [Chuckles] CHARLES: And there's a row in my database. [Laughter] CHARLES: That's your balance of Sam-bucks. SAM: So, I think we're about to get way beyond the [inaudible] [Laughter] SAM: But I think the argument would be that some of these things are better decentralized. So in my example, you're right. That might just make more sense. But I think there are some examples around cryptocurrencies that are supporting a network of decentralized services where a centralized database historically was inconvenient or didn't provide the amount of transparency that people were looking for. CHARLES: Right, right. SAM: And so, that's a topic for a whole other podcast. CHARLES: Yeah, right. No, it makes sense. SAM: [Laughs] CHARLES: I think it's a matter of scale, right? If you're going to be just buying services but if you're going to have secondary markets where you're trading in this currency, I can see that. So, let's… [Chuckles] We'll reel that back in. SAM: [Chuckles] CHARLES: And ask a question that occurred to me. So now, we talked about your day-to-day. What exactly, when you're looking at a company to basically give money to, what are you looking for? What are the things you're like, “Oh man, I want to throw dollars at this company,” versus, “Mm. I'm going to keep them and give them some feedback and send them on their way.” SAM: There's always a set of factors that we evaluate. And I think the waiting is probably different for different types of investors. And then there's I'd say for me as a corporate VC being a part of GE, there's an extra lens which is, how is this relevant to GE? What does it mean for GE to be an investor? But if I think about just the kind of general industry lines it's: team is a really big one. So, who's building this company? Do I believe in their ability to reach this vision that they're laying out for me? Another one would be technology. What have they actually built? Is that hard to build? Do the things they want to build in the future, will those be hard to build? And do they have the skills and the people to do it? Then their technology, maybe an extension of that would be intellectual property. And besides intellectual property, just defensibility of a business in general. So then, you start thinking about, can somebody else just come along and to the same thing? Because if so, then maybe there's not a strong advantage in what the company has done so far. And then lastly, it's also just traction. How far along are they? How much have they proven the ability to execute on the plan that they're laying out? CHARLES: Right. ERICK: So, you're a corporate investor. So, there's other types of investor like an institutional VC? What are the differences between an institutional VC and a corporate VC and the other types of VC? Potentially what they'd be looking for, in terms of what they wanted best. SAM: Yeah. So, I think generally I categorize investors as institutional or corporate. And corporate [inaudible]… ERICK: Yeah. SAM: Corporate or strategic. And then there are people who exist on a spectrum there. But generally, an institutional means this is a group that is raising money from a set of limited partners who are the people who invest in the fund that are pension funds or wealthy individuals. They're large pools of institutional capital and their pure purpose is to earn return. And they may have a certain focus because they believe in this part of the market, or they like this kind of company or the stage of company. But essentially, their job is to return more money to the limited partners of that fund that were put in. That's their role in the world. And then on the corporate side, if we go the most extreme version of corporate VC, this is a group that is a part of a larger corporate. They're investing that company's money. So, in this case for me it's GE. I'm investing GE's money into these startups. And that means that I only have a single backer being GE. And I also maybe have a different lens, because my purpose is one, to earn financial return. I want to go out and I want to find good companies. I want to earn returns just like the other institutional venture capitalists. But I also have the goal of, and the strategic goal may differ by company, but for me it's about how can I help GE advance? How can I help GE understand a market? And how can GE be helpful to this company in achieving their goals? And so, for each company we use that lens as well, as a corporate. CHARLES: What I'm hearing is that you want to invest… I guess the thing is you can experience return that's not just cash. It's not just dollars. You'll experience return in raising the ocean of the business that GE is in, right? So… SAM: You said it much better than I did. [Laughter] CHARLES: Well, it's all… paraphrasing is actually easy. [Laughter] ERICK: Oh, yeah. SAM: An important skill. CHARLES: That makes a lot of sense. So, the question I have then is, you said you were looking for companies that kind of swim in a specific ocean. And each company is farther along. Are you usually finding this company I want to work with, like you are going out and finding them? Or they're coming to you looking for investment? Or is it really just, depends. SAM: So, we call that part of the process sourcing, sourcing investments. And they come from all over. So for us, there are a few different ways. One is we tend to be thesis-driven. Meaning we go out and we say, the world is changing in this way and therefore we're interested in this kind of company. And so, we'll proactively go out and research. We're also, I mentioned, a little later stage. So, I don't tend to do seed investments. I tend to do ‘Series A' and more often ‘Series B' and later. So, companies that have often already raised a seed round or raised a ‘Series A' round. So, I can actually search databases to say, “Okay, in the last two years who has raised a seed round or ‘Series A' round and these other things I'm looking for whether it be location or tied to investors or other things.” So, that's one way of being proactive is saying I want to go out and look for companies in this space that look like this. And that can be either like I mentioned, desktop research like searching the web, searching databases. Or it can be just going to conferences, right? So, on thing we spend a lot of time on in the IoT world is artificial intelligence and machine learning. It's been a big, big topic over the last year that a lot of people have invested in. So, we may go to different conferences that focus on that topic, meet lots of people that are working on it. Some companies, some individuals that are either investing in or advising their companies. And we'll talk to them. What companies are rising out of that space that we should be looking at? What technologies are changing in that space that we should be thinking about? And just trying to get smarter so that we can make the right investments and help the right companies find their way to work with GE and make our products better and help them advance their own enterprise. CHARLES: Are you investing with a mind that eventually GE might acquire this company and integrate it into GE itself? Or is it really just, “Hey, we're just going to take a part of it. We're going to have maybe a seat on the board to be able to steer a little bit. But we're pretty much going to let it be its own thing with its own autonomy and go where it was and just benefit through those secondary and tertiary effects.” SAM: Yeah, acquisitions from our portfolio by GE happened. But they're certainly not the explicit goal or our focus. I know we've had one, maybe two of our portfolio companies acquired by GE, one that I was directly working with called Bit Stew. So, we made the investment in the company. It was with the goal of using their data management platform for a lot of our applications. And at some point in working with GE and GE Digital, they decided, you know, this would make sense to be a part of GE. That wasn't why we made the investment. But it did end up being acquired by GE. And I know the team is doing really well. And it's been at GE for about a year now. So, it does happen. But when I said one or two, that's versus a portfolio of a hundred plus companies. CHARLES: Right. SAM: Since we started investing. And so, that's not what we're looking to do every time. Much more often it's about again, how does the company make GE more competitive and a better company, a better place to work. And then how do we help them advance their goals? Whether it be bringing them developers, or finding them other routes to market, or just being a customer. CHARLES: Right. SAM: So, that's really how we think about strategic value. There's a lot of different ways to create it. CHARLES: Yeah, I'm curious. Because it seems like also in a lot of these companies you're investing in potential competitors. Extensively you're operating if not in the exact same market, maybe very similar markets. There's a little bit of overlap. And so, you're kind of investing in potential competitors, right? So, where's the balance of here we're funding our competitors versus we're going to move into these markets ourselves. SAM: Yeah, and funding of “competitors” can happen. I think that we talk about that more in theory and say, “Oh sure, we'd be willing to fund a company that's out disrupting the space that we're playing in.” And we do that. It's rare that you see startups that are directly head-on competing with much more established companies like GE or other industrials or even other consumer companies. They don't take these companies head-on because that's not a way that startups have been successful in the past, right? We talk much more about disruption and saying, how is this company doing something that may indirectly compete with GE? So, you think about things like, for anybody that's not familiar with GE… actually, a lot of people associate us with our appliances which we actually don't manufacture anymore. That's [inaudible]. [Chuckles] SAM: We sold that business a few years ago. Almost everything we sell is like big, heavy industrial equipment. So, we sell aircraft engines, locomotives. We sell gas turbines, wind turbines. So, here and there a couple of things that do power generation. One trend that's affecting that industry is distributed generation of energy, energy storage. And those are parts of the market that are a less significant part of GE's business than say, heavy-duty gas turbines that sit in a power plant and generate a massive amount of power. And so, if you look at that and say, “Wow, GE Ventures is out funding storage companies. Does that mean they're funding competitors?” Well, it means that we're funding innovation that may disrupt the future of our business, but that's part of being a VC and that's part of the value that GE Ventures brings to GE. CHARLES: Right. SAM: We're out there looking at markets before they're large enough or in scope for GE. CHARLES: Mmhmm, right. And so, yes you're disrupting the space but then you're going to be a part of that disruption and have strong connections to those markets if you need to actually migrate your business completely over to them. That's kind of what I'm hearing. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. Better to disrupt yourself, right? CHARLES: [Chuckles] SAM: And be a part of the ecosystem in the future because I think the future happens with or without you. And it's really key that we get out in front of it and a part of that, a part of that discussion, a part of that process. CHARLES: And so now, you've been saying that this is, GE, this has been pretty explosive? There's a lot more happening through GE Ventures. There's a lot more happening in other companies globally, having these corporate ventures. Where do you think the balance is going to lie to say, “Hey,” I'm just going to throw out some numbers, just for theory here, it's like, “10% of our business is essentially this distributed network of semi-autonomous or mostly autonomous startups. And then we have our core business.” Does that stabilize at 50/50? Does it stabilize at 75% the other way with GE essentially becoming a capital management company? Or is it somewhere in the middle? SAM: So, GE Ventures will never be a meaningful part of GE's revenue, a meaningful part of its business as a percentage. The overall venture industry is full of funds that are on the order of like, bigger funds are on the order of, in the billions. The single-digit billions. And GE itself is a much, much larger company. Well over a hundred billion dollars in enterprise value. So, I think GE Ventures will always be a small part of the company financially. And the impact will be largely felt through how we help the rest of GE navigate the future. ERICK: You said that sometimes you go and look for companies, startups to invest in or sometimes startups come to you or come to a VC looking for funding. Now, I'm a developer or a startup founder. And I'm going to look for funding. What are some of the mistakes or pitfalls that you see that startup founders or people with an idea fall into when looking for funding that you can help them avoid? SAM: Yeah, and we do see companies that come to us. So, I mentioned a lot about how I go out looking for companies based on a thesis or a set of relevant factors or relevant things for GE. But we do have a number of inbound requests. People know some of the bigger VC brands. They know GE the big company. So, we do get inbound interest and we also get referrals from networks of VCs and some are employees and other things. But for the companies that are seeking us out, the ones that are going out looking for funding, there are some things that are really well-known in Silicon Valley and other places, or you could research online and find, but may not be obvious at first. And so, I think the first one is, who are you talking to? What investors are you seeking out? Depending on what stage you're at, what kind of business you're in, you have to understand what the landscape of potential investors are and which ones might be interested in a company like yours. So, I think there are tons of good mentors that can help people navigate that. Maybe less commonly outside of Silicon Valley, in Boston, New York, in the places where you have traditional venture ecosystems. But you see a ton of resources available online whether it be things like Fred Wilson's blog, AVC.com, or Crunchbase, TechCrunch. You can read and understand and from headlines tell what people care about. And I think that's fundamentally a really important first step. You don't want to waste an hour talking to somebody who will never… this is somebody that invests in really late-stage growth equity companies and I'm coming to them for my first investment. That's not going to work. So, I think finding the right people, step one. I think when you're going through the process of pitching and talking about your business, the pitfalls are all about understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your business and where you are today. And so, for every company, that's different. But I think just being open and honest versus glossing over a lot of the risks, these are all really risky companies. If they were easy, then you'd have a lot more competition. And so… [Laughter] SAM: I think that's one thing that I see, too. You have some company that comes in and say, “Look, here are the parts I've figured out and here are the parts I still have to figure out.” And that's a really good conversation to have. There are other companies where they say, “Look, we've figured the whole thing out. We just want you to give us some money.” And I don't think a lot of investors necessarily buy into that. And certainly, there are investors of every stripe. So, I may be speaking too broadly. But I think that's a really important part of the venture investment process, right? You're looking not just for money but also for counsel and for somebody that you're going to work with over the next, sometimes seven years or longer. CHARLES: Yeah. SAM: [Inaudible] going to be on your board and participating. So, it's a really important part. CHARLES: So, you're looking, you're actually looking not necessarily for all the answers but you're looking for the questions that they're asking, too. SAM: Yeah, absolutely. And demonstrating they understand the ins and outs of the business. And that they have the capacity to carry this onto that next stage and hopefully beyond. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, now you said something that caught my interest there that you work with some people sometimes seven years. You enter into these long relationships. Do you generally ever do any type of, I want to say almost like… mentoring might be too strong of a word, but in the pre-investment, in other words before you actually invest in a company, do you ever work with them to prepare them for investment to say, “Hey, I think there's potential here. Work on A, B, and C and then let's talk.” And you have this image in your mind. You go, you pitch to an investor, and it's either thumbs up or it's like thumbs down and you never talk to them again. Versus, is there some ground in between where there's a conversation that evolves that eventually ends up in an investment being made? SAM: Absolutely. I think one of the parts of this industry is even when I'm not an investor in a company, I may know a company and say, “It's not a fit for me for GE Ventures but I still think that we can provide help.” It's one of the things I love about tech and about venture in general, is that people are often willing to pitch in, even when they don't have a direct financial incentive. And so, I see that a lot whether it's helping a company where we've met them and we later see an opportunity and say, “Oh, you should go and talk to this company or that company.” And then often, we may see a company that's pitching us ahead of where we would typically invest. Maybe they're looking for a ‘Series A' but given the space that they're in or what we're doing at the moment, it may not be the right time for us. And so, we'll continue to track along and keep up and get updates. Some companies do a really good job of actually providing proactive updates and sending out monthly or quarterly reports to investors they've met with before. I think there's a wide range of ways that founders do this. But it is a really good way to keep people interested in the prize. And then when you come back and say, “Hey, now I'm out raising my ‘Series B',” that's not a surprise. I knew that you were hitting these milestones, that you were doing everything you said you were going to do. And you've demonstrated a level of credibility that really adds to the pitch that you made the first time around. ERLICK: You said something, metrics. So, a venture capitalist, after they make an investment, what are some of the expectations that they may hold this startup that they just invested in… what are those expectations that they may hold them accountable for? Or those metrics that they'll be looking at? SAM: Yeah, so I think some of the really high-level ones that are common across businesses, generally growth is a really big one. So, I almost said revenue. But I wanted to caveat… [Laughter] SAM: And say growth could mean different things. It could mean number of developers. It could mean number of downloads if you're an app. It depends on what the business is. But I think growth is a huge one. Growth is a really important, that top line, that's what's going to drive a lot of the value in the business. And then below that, demonstrating that you can hit the milestones around things like margins. So, how profitable is each unit you're selling? Or how profitable is each customer? And lastly, how are you doing managing your spend? So, that's great that you're earning the right amount of money for each customer, but are you doing it by… do you have a massive number of employees and offices and all the things that are too expensive to allow you to use your money wisely as you reach the next stage? And so, those are the big milestones. It's really just growth, margins, and operating cost or burn rate as we call it. CHARLES: Mmhmm. So, that sounds like a lot of work to actually evaluate these companies. Do you do your due diligence once you've already moved in pretty solidly into the process? SAM: Yeah, these processes can move really fast. And depending on the timing, generally it's, you jump in, you learn as much as you can, as fast as you can, and you make a decision so the company can move on. I'll say there's a lot of work that goes into considering and deciding which companies to spend more time on, both for us and for them. We don't want to waste a company's time evaluating, going through more meetings, if it's not a really strong candidate for us. Because they could be spending that time better with other investors who are a better fit. And I'm not going to pretend to like the evaluation part. I have a lot of respect for the amount of not just work but of a person's energy and really, their life goes into these companies. And so, I think the hard part is building the company. And so, it's hard for me to say that evaluating is a hard part. I'm trying to understand as much as I possibly can in a month or two. I'm not going to know as much about the business as the founder does. And I'll be wrong a lot. I may miss something and not understand, whether it's because I don't see the market but it's there or because I have some underlying assumption about the way things should work that they don't meet. And I think that that's something that investors have to come to grips with. You try and get as smart as you can as fast as you can, but you're not always going to get to the right answer. ERLICK: You said that it was growth, spend, and profits were some of the metrics. That is almost all of the essential components of a business plan. I remember one time, one of our previous conversations, you emphasized how important it was for companies, or even at just a simple startup, to put together a basic business plan. Is that something that you can elaborate on a little? SAM: Yeah. So, most companies show up with a pitch deck. So, they have a set of PowerPoint slides and then they have a set of materials behind that where if you go deeper into an area they may have a white paper about their technology and they may have an Excel financial model that explains why they have these expectations about what growth and margins and all those things will look like. So, there are all of those pieces that come together into a business plan. The business plan could be written or it could be that PowerPoint. But very traditionally, it's a PowerPoint or some kind of presentation that is shared in person. There's usually a version that's sent in advance to confirm that the company and the investors should meet. And then once you clear that bar, there's a deeper presentation that often you'll give to either one or a set or a whole team of investors. And you'll go through and explain why it is you think this is a good investment opportunity for them and why you'd like to work together. And then you have a discussion about whether that's a good fit, about some of the underlying assumptions, and come to either a set of next steps for the diligence or a decision that it's not the right fit, it's not the right time to take the relationship further with more diligence and that kind of stuff. ERLICK: Yeah, because I see… well, I know a few people that have startup ideas and they kind of put the business plan on the back burner and put the actual prototype more at the forefront. They say, “Oh, we can worry about the business plan later.” [Laughs] SAM: [Chuckles] Well, I think… there's something to be said to that. There's something to be said for product and growth winning. So if you… Let's start at the early stages. If you have something that's working and that's really obvious, you may not need a… ERLICK: True. SAM: To go raise money. It all comes down to, do you have enough to get enough investors interested to raise the round that you want to raise? Because you want to have enough investors involved, enough demand, that you can be selective about who you want to work with and on what terms, right? So, what valuation and how much of the company am I giving them, and all of those things. So, if you can do all of those things with nothing but an app and one chart that shows a hockey stick of growth, that's awesome. CHARLES: You're hot. [Laughter] SAM: Often it does require much more and a much longer plan. So, even if you say, “Look, it's growing like crazy,” there's usually some set of questions behind that. So, that's great. Your free app is growing like crazy. How are you going…? [Laughter] SAM: To get paid for that? And you'll talk about that. And you'll say, “Here are the things we're planning on doing,” or here are the assumptions that we're making. And the more original, the more unique the business model is, the more discussion and explanation that may require. And that's where the business plan and a pitch deck come in handy, because it's a really good presentation aide or pre-reading to get to that answer faster. ERLICK: So, this evaluation it seems, is a two-way street. The VCs evaluating the company and also the company or the startup evaluating the VC to know whether it's going to be a good relationship. SAM: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, the best companies have choice. They have a number of investors who are interested in funding them. And certainly, that might be different at different stages or at different times, depending on what's going on in the economy and in tech and in other places. But generally, VC is a very competitive industry. I'm trying to sell my money and services as an investor versus other options that you have. And so, while it's maybe not as competitive as only one of us can buy the company like in an M&A situation. There are often more than one investor. There's still a very intense set of competition around, okay, who's going to be involved in the deal? How much money will they be able to invest? So, that's something that really can come in handy for founders. ERLICK: And what was that you just said there? M&A situation? SAM: Oh, sorry. When a company is being bought. So, when a company is being bought, it can look kind of like a fundraising process, but instead of selling a part of a company, you're selling the whole thing. And so, in that case, obviously it's a competitive situation where there's only one winner. And this is a different process. Often, the rounds that we're a part of, we're not… we're buying a minority stake just like any VC. We may be buying 5% of a company, 10% of a company. And often we're being joined by other venture investors. We really actually commonly partner with the institutional firms and they'll take a board seat. We'll invest alongside them and be an observer on the board and provide counsel. And so, it is a very competitive process. And that, while M&A is a winner-take-all, there is one buyer who is ultimately going to own this company going forward, the investing process for a venture is much more collaborative. But it is still competitive, because there can only be so many investors in one company. CHARLES: And you want to choose the right one on both… the right set. Alright. Well, I think we're running up against time. This has been a fascinating conversation into an aspect of our industry that really is providing the fuel that drives so much of this forward. So, I guess I'll close by asking you, already talked about Resin. We had them on the podcast. We love them. Are there any conferences or products that you're investing in that you feel like our audience might want to know about or anything like that? SAM: Well one, you mentioned Resin. CHARLES: Yeah. SAM: I know you guys have been a good friend to them and Elrick and I met at their hackathon. I would recommend to anybody, go try it out. It's a really cool way to play with hardware products. I am not a developer and I required a lot of help from Elrick at the hackathon. [Laughter] SAM: But at the same time, it is something that almost anybody can pull out of a box and start playing with. So, I think that's a great one. The episode you did on them were fantastic. So, I really enjoyed those ones. I'd say in general, I'm always out looking to meet new companies that are going to benefit from working with GE. I spend a lot of my time not just trying to invest but also trying to find partnerships for companies that we're looking at within GE, either selling to us or working with us. And so, if somebody thinks that there's an opportunity to do that, then I encourage them to reach out. Because I think there's a ton of opportunity. It's a really big company that really has a ton of opportunity for other partners. CHARLES: Alright. If they wanted to reach out, how would they get in touch with you? SAM: Yeah, I think maybe the best way to initially make contact, I tend to be pretty active on Twitter. So, my handle is just @SamCates. S-A-M-C-A-T-E-S. And you can also learn more through our website. If you're curious about some of the businesses I mentioned, so just GEVentures.com. And it's about to go through a whole refresh. So, go check it out. CHARLES: Alright. Well, fantastic. We will definitely look for that. And for everybody else, you can get in touch with us on Twitter at @TheFrontside or send us a line at info@frontside.io. Thank you everybody for listening. Thank so, so much Sam, for being on the podcast. SAM: Yeah, of course. It was a blast. I'm a big podcast fan and I've really enjoyed catching up on your episodes. CHARLES: Ah, and thank you Elrick, always. ERICK: It was great. SAM: Elrick, when you finish building your Raspberry Pi Battleships, I want to play. CHARLES: [Laughs] ERICK: Oh, yes. Yes. It's in the works, man. It's in progress. SAM: Alright, I'm waiting. CHARLES: Alright. Well, take it easy, everybody.

Dean is the CTO of Settled.co.uk, a rapidly growing tech start-up in London. They are revolutionising the way people buy and sell homes making the process far more efficient and less of a headache for everyone involved. He is also the author of 3 books and an avid triathlete which are certainly non-trivial things to complete. He shares great insights into running and growing a successful team and of course personal insights on being a human and culturing a growth mindset. SAM’S TAKE HOME TIPS: 1 — Write a Non-fiction Book A great way to focus and really understand a topic. It doesn’t last forever and can really help build credibility. (Note from Sam — You can start by just writing a blog and answering Quora questions on topics) 2 — Pay it forward Don’t expect anything for free, just approach things sensibly expecting them to cost you time or money. be nice and genuine to everyone you meet without expecting stuff back. Then anything you do get you can be extra grateful for and will likely end up getting more in the process. 3 — Understand the Role of a CTO over time In the long-term, a CTO isn’t going to be a coder and needs to have the skills as a manager if he wants to retain that title Bonus — Test your idea first before building it! DEAN’S FAVOURITE BOOKS The Hard Thing About Hard Things — Ben Horowitz The tale of starting and growing a business to a billion dollars and losing it all and getting back and then nearly losing it and then starting another billion dollar business. Basically, there is no recipe for success and it is defined by what you do when things are going wrong. Such a good read. Sam’s Review and summary (https://medium.com/@sam_harris/the-hard-thing-about-hard-things-ben-horowitz-summary-and-review-8013261e1b4c) Get the book here (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00DQ845EA/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=samharris48-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B00DQ845EA&linkId=86e7d98c4e527bce9d4429a55649a739) Get on audible free (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audible-Free-Trial-Digital-Membership/dp/B00OPA2XFG?tag=samharris48%E2%80%9321) The Lean Start Up — Eric Ries The book that started the whole lean movement. A standard for all cash-strapped entrepreneurs Buy on Amazon (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0670921602/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=samharris48-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0670921602&linkId=2deaa993ab7118ded9644d62681b13f5) Get on audible free (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audible-Free-Trial-Digital-Membership/dp/B00OPA2XFG?tag=samharris48%E2%80%9321) Design Sprints — Google Ventures The steps to design the full idea of your business model Buy the book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0593076117/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=samharris48-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0593076117&linkId=a028b3ac7d30f12d2d9562ba48415aec) Design Sprint Kit (https://designsprintkit.withgoogle.com/planning/overview) The Five Dysfunctions of a Team — Patrick Lencioni An interesting fictional story used to highlight the main issues that cause teams to become ineffective. The conversations in the book really show how to remedy a bad situation and get buy-in from others. Sam’s review and summary (https://medium.com/@sam_harris/5-dysfunctions-of-a-team-patrick-lencioni-6dbc8cb0fc70) Get the book here (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0787960756/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=samharris48-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0787960756&linkId=b016fcc68bb52c2c96f2a55138bc11a9) Get on audible free (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audible-Free-Trial-Digital-Membership/dp/B00OPA2XFG?tag=samharris48%E2%80%9321) Bernard Cornwell A fantastic fictional writer who focuses on historical-themed novels across the globe. Whenever travelling I love to read a book by Bernard Cornwell if he has written one in that country. His amazing imagery and storytelling really get you into the mindset of the character and they are always a great ride. Dean suggests starting with the Saxon series (renamed “Last Kingdom series” since TV adaption…) Get the book here (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0008139474/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=samharris48-21&camp=1634&creative=6738&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0008139474&linkId=156e57cd224217817c7294d6354dc730) Get on audible free (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Audible-Free-Trial-Digital-Membership/dp/B00OPA2XFG?tag=samharris48%E2%80%9321) READ DEAN’S BOOKS Building Great Startup Teams So many insights on hiring decisions, building the culture and getting the best out of everyone. Great read! Progressive Web Apps A useful book to get into the world of PWAs. Save time on developing native apps you don’t need when you can deliver a better experience through the web. Fast ASP.NET Websites I haven’t read this but the summary sounds good if you are a .net developer GET IN TOUCH You can chat to either of us about the topics covered in the episode or anything of interest =] Dean and Settled: DeanHume.com (http://deanhume.com/) Twitter (https://twitter.com/deanohume) Settled.co.uk (https://www.settled.co.uk/) Sam: Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/samjamsnaps/) Quora (https://www.quora.com/profile/Sam-Harris-58) Twitter (https://twitter.com/samharristweets) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharris48/) Subscribe! If you enjoyed the podcast please subscribe and rate it. And of course, share with your friends! Special Guest: Dean Hume.

非常感谢热心听众【“就是一块牛腩” 李珊】对本文稿的贡献，正确率极高！ 赠人玫瑰，手有余香。想为文稿做贡献的童鞋请微博私信联系@CRI罗煜。我们撒花欢迎你的加入！ 听写完的文稿都会由主持人们负责Check，然后发布给小伙伴们。同时，通过对比，也可以学习到很多有用的单词和短语呢！希望大家能够加入我们，让圆桌能够陪伴更多小伙伴们的成长！Heyang: “Zootopia,” the animated movie proves to be the latest Disney juggernaut, as its box office in China over the weekend has just surpassed the 1 billion Yuan benchmark, making it the bestselling animated motion picture in Chinese movie history. So it’s not surprising that Nick and Finnick, two foxes in the movie, have gained great popularity among audiences. Now, apparently, the hottest pet to have is a fox, and you can order it online. Can you please just try to tell me what is going on here? Is it that a living fox is going to be delivered to your doorstep?Sam: That’s what people are doing. I think you are not actually allowed to buy them. Did you know that the fennec fox is a native of North Africa and Arabia which means they are probably used to a very hot climate. So raising them in somewhere like Beijing would be really bad for the creature. I’m imaging. And this is all coming of the back of the really popular film ‘Zootopia’. I didn’t see it. The week it came out, I watched ‘Ip Man 3’, the new 叶问, because for me that is a better film. And I’m happy that I made the right decision. But apparently it is huge. Kids in China seem to love the ‘Zootopia’ thing. It has become a fad now.Heyang: And now it is the chance for the only parent that has a kid in this room (Ningjing: Yes, finally). What is going on here.Ningjing: I think it is not a film just for kids for adults too. You can learn a lot of things. I mean it is really thought-provoking. It involves how to treat another race, another species. There are loads and loads of issues, not to mention the allusion to some other films and figures in there. It’s a good film. Because people love the film, people kind of take a liking to the animals in it, in particular Nick and Finnick. They are the two lovely foxes and they made a lot of tricks in the movie. So some parents just found it so amazing that their daughter or their kid asks them to buy such kind of an animal as a pet. I will give you one example. A Beijing parent is trying to buy a fennec fox for her daughter because I quote what she said ‘after seeing the movie Zootopia, my daughter became crazy about the fennec foxes and demanded one for a pet. And she ended up finding that on the Internet they can be traded privately.Heyang: They can be traded privately because it is not legal. So people are keeping it under the table. But you can still get it. Is it that parents are just a bit overly doting in this way. Is it like if the daughter or son says I want the moon, are you going to get the moon for him or her? No. You tell him it can’t be done. This is a special animal. It is exotic and might come to extinct and all kinds of issues are around that. I mean it is not that kind of situation you will say yes to your kid.Ningjing: Yes, quite agree. A child’s demand is an innocent one. He or she wants it because he or she loves it, but for parent you are a reasonable person. You are an adult. You should not thinking of buying such an alive animal for your daughter just because she asks for it. She might treat it as a pet or maybe as a toy, who knows?Sam: I think it actually serves as a good opportunities to teach your kids boundaries and there is something that you just can’t have. I mean I watched Star Wars, I wanted a light saber but it didn’t mean I was getting one. They don’t exist. I checked online. But you know there are limits to what kids can have. Better compromise than an illegally buying real fox.Heyang:Or give them a smack and say no. Oh, no, I’ve just revealed the true side of me. That is “熊孩子, this is not something that I can put up with”. But Ningjing you are looking at me in such a kind way that I know you don’t agree with my parenting skills.Ningjing: Oh, I think that’s a great parenting skill.Heyang: Oh, I will not hit a kid. Maybe give them a push when their parents are not around if they are screaming and shouting. Oh, I’ve said too much again. So is it even legal?(Sam: Beating kids is not legal) I will not beat them. I will not beat anyone. But when Ningjing is not looking, but her kid is cute. ( Sam: You mean if he is ugly, you will just smack about.) No, I wouldn’t. But if the kid is screaming, then in my head I’ve done a whole bunch of things. And if the parent is not around, I might scold the kid.Sam: I think scolding is ok. I mean this is completely off topic. We are talking about foxes. But I think scolding, just saying that’s bad. I think that is acceptable.Heyang: Or a gentle poke in the back. Or something like that. Oh this is my favorite topic about the punishment of bear kids, but that is off topic. And what about the law. What does the regulation in China say about this kind situation of trading animals online?Ningjing: OK, let’s say first in China it’s illegal to sell or purchase a fennec fox online. You can’t trade them online under any circumstances in China. It’s not a Chinese native species and it is prohibited to buy or sell the animal without authorization. So you just can’t let loose this animal and let it run across the land of China. It’s a prohibited one. But for red fox, it is a protected animal in China, but it can be traded. You can’t let it go out of control. When you don’t want to have it, you just let it go and run around. It is still not OK. So in China there is one species that is forbidden from trading and there is one that you can trade.Sam: It’s not just the fact that it’s illegal. It messes up the ecology of the country that you snatch this fox from. Foxes aren’t particularly known for being nice creatures. I think if it wasn’t for this film, most people wouldn’t have an attraction to them.Ningjing: I don’t quite agree. I have a friend who lives in London and he’s got a fox-made home in his garden. They seem to be treating each other nicely.Sam: It is because fox is keeping invading his garden, so I might make a home for them.Heyang: Yes, that might be the case. And our wechat listener Bob says that that is tragic. And as soon as these foxes are discovered not to be so cute or easy to manage, there will be thousands of abandoned foxes outside on the streets. All to satisfy some spoiled brats. And bad parenting and other strong language will not be read out right now, because this is national radio. But thank you very much Bob and I like your comments very much. And yes there are limits. There are animals that we need to respect their rights too. They cannot speak to us, but animal welfare is something we should have in mind too.

非常感谢热心听众【Maggie-吕欣欣】对本文稿的贡献The Spring Festival is around the corner. An old question that has been brought up again for many couples is whose home should they go back for Spring Festival? 春节就要到了，对于很多夫妻和情侣来说，一个老问题又摆在了眼前。春节到底应该回谁家过年呢？ Heyang: So going home for Spring Festival or the Chinese New Year, that’s the most important moment for family reunion in China. Why is it sometimes a little bit of a difficult question to take the answer for couples?Sam: For first of all, I think on this topic, me, Heyang and Luo Yu are probably the three most unqualified people to talk about it, because I’m the lonely “老外 that can’t go back to England because it’s too far and it would be too much effort for the sake of the week. And you guys are both from Beijing right, which means you don’t travel on Chinese New Eve anyway.Heyang: Oh Sam I can’t believe that you didn’t pick up that very important piece of information about Luo Yu because you guys are good friends. Luo Yu is not from Beijing.Sam: Really? Where are you from, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: I was born in Xinjiang and raised in Xinjiang as well.Heyang: [We should pretty much…talks about everything on the show.]Sam: Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region?Luo Yu: You’re joking.Sam: I’m not joking. You have a thick Beijing accent.Luo Yu: Are you my best friend, Sam?Sam: But you’ve got a thick Beijing accent when you speak.Luo Yu: No, I don’t have a thick Beijing accent. Heyang does.Heyang: It’s hardly thick, Luo Yu. Mine, well, a little bit. Yes, I was hoping that you wouldn’t highlight this fact.Sam: From Beijing [I’m actually about that?](Luo Yu: But even…)Heyang: Yes, Luo Yu, you’re gonna say?Luo Yu: But even speaking of which, I think Sam hasn’t highlighted the right thing.Heyang: I thought we were in the same camp (Luo Yu: We are.), the singleton’s camp. So stop, you know, highlighting that fact. Well, now the cat is out of the bag, let’s just talk about it then. You haven’t answered the question for me. Why is it a bit of a big deal and a hard decision for couples?Luo Yu: So well Heyang and me don’t have this current question because we are both single and fabulous【注：Single and Fabulous化用《欲望都市》S02E04 即“单身贵族” 呼应赫扬的’the singleton’s camp’】. But when you are happily involved in a lot of family affairs with your lovely spouse, you have to decide this very important issue. Is it your mother’s house or your husband’s mother’s house to visit?Heyang: For the Spring Festival.Sam: So let me give a couple of details other way here. First of all, Luo Yu, you were just on a really big TV show where you meet that special someone so we have a chat coming later on today (Heyang: Oh, dear). And secondly, am I right in saying that in china there’s a tradition here of the girls usually going back to the boy’s house as a sign of respect and if the guy doesn’t take the girl home and has to go to the girl’s house, it kind of demoralizes to a certain extent. Is that right?Heyang: Well usually I think the tradition is, especially if you’re married, then it’s usually the wife would go to the husband’s mom’s home to celebrate the Chinese New Year.Luo Yu: Yes, as the society has been evolving all the time, I think both husband and wife have become breadwinners of the family. So I think they have been quarreling about this case.Heyang: Why does earning money, been financially independent have anything to do with quarreling about who should go to whoever’s house? (Sam: Wait)Luo Yu: Because traditionally we think ‘嫁鸡随鸡 嫁狗随狗’, given that you don’t have financial independence. You are not the breadwinner. Now as the wife, you are financially independent and you can also make the right choice to visit your family first. (Sam: That’s quite bad.)Heyang: Oh my, that’s a little…What he said is going to start more wars at home and that’s exactly what we don’t want to happen.Sam: I’ve got…I have a few more questions. So let’s just say for example…You’re from Xinjiang right (Luo Yu: Right). Heyang’s from Beijing. Let’s say you two are dating (Heyang: Stop using people in this studio as example). So Heyang and Luo Yu are dating and they both work in Shanghai (Heyang: Oh dear what?) Is it a tour possible for you to get your parents to go from Xinjiang to Shanghai and you get your parents to go from Beijing to Shanghai? And they then just all meet where you guys reside and then everyone’s happy.Heyang: That’s too beautiful a picture. I don’t want to imagine. (Sam: But is that possible?)What do you want to say, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: First you have to have a very big mansion to occupy those four parents.Sam: We stay in a hotel. Everyone live in Shanghai. So it’s gonna be…Everyone…Luo Yu: That’s really a pathetic picture. You invite both of the parents coming from Xinjiang and Beijing to Shanghai, then you settle them down in a hotel?Sam: Ok I got a second option. I got a second option. Heyang and her parents, Luo Yu and his parents all buy plane tickets and they go on holidays to Thailand or Sanya. Will that work?Luo Yu: That’s…What do you say, Heyang? I agree with his idea.Heyang: I don’t agree with this idea (Luo Yu: Why?! Sam: I can see you are thinking about it Luo Yu.)Heyang: No he’s not, not like I can read his mind but no, he’s not and…(Sam: You guys are really in sync. Couple sync) And I’m in sync with you too, you know, this is Round Table. (Sam: It’s different but yeah) Okay okay, let’s get back on track. I think that is one suggestion that makes sense that these days if you have the financial means, you don’t have to have the big mansion, but you need to have a place for two set of parents to come together I think that’s really nice if you can afford that because these days a lot of us are the single child, the only child of your family. So I would hate it that one day if I get married to someone and I would have to leave my parents at home on this special day. What do you think, Luo Yu?Luo Yu: So my advice is quite simple: Earn as much money as you can and bring your four parents. You go to Maldives, go to Thailand Phuket, go to Saipan, go to all those beautiful resorts on beautiful islands.Sam: Sounds really nice. Heyang you are a lucky girl.Heyang: It has nothing to do with me. And if it was two people who go on holiday because they’re good friends, it should be Luo Yu and Sam.

【特别感谢华中师范大学热心听友 黄善鋆 帮忙听写本篇文稿】HY: I used to just walk away when that happens... It’s like Oh...I’m thirsty, Oh bathroom break and it always coincides with that sensitive scene. Sam: You didn’t get that urge during 《老炮儿》？ HY: No，because I’m a grown woman, and I have a very mature relationship with my mom. And when we saw that in the cinema yesterday, I honestly wanted to cover my eyes, because I don’t want to see the buttocks of FengXiaogang, I really don’t...Aha... I wish somebody could have warned me of that. So yes... LY: But there’s no difference. Not much difference when it comes to buttocks, so even if it’s FengXiaogang’s, it makes no difference. Sam: Oh, okya, we are slightly off the topic there...Just back to the point that, there should be a rating system, something that tells you before you watch the film, that this is A, B, C in this film, so, make sure you know this before you buy a ticket and going, we all agree that rating system should be there. And I am just going to push the point one last time, guys, I think, this kind of rating is a culture, it’s something that I want to see happen in more in different industries in China, you want to see it in film, you want to see it in alcohol and tobacco sales, and there are a lot of different areas, where, I think, just guidelines, you know, for what we should be ingesting into our lives would be a warm welcome. He Yang: eah, I think that’s certainly something that we have repeatedly been talking about on this show and often it seems like the only way out. On the one hand, you want to encourage creativity, and you want different groups of society to enjoy the kind of entertainment product that they want to see, and on the other hand, you want to protect the kids, youngsters from some things that grown-ups deem vulgar. So, in order to ensure those two things going on at the same time, rating sounds like to be a good idea, but it definitely requires more study into the issue, and also, a more diversified and specified way of conducting policy. And that means the government has more work to do, alright. Luo Yu: Definitely, but, when it comes to the artistic perspective of the movie, I think some of the story lines are just not changeable, because Feng Xiaogang was very worried about some of the foul language used in this movie, and what they tried to do is they tried to replace some of the four letter words with some other four letter words, and it’s not practical and that is just not the way they speak, this is which you have mentioned, hutong vernacular. He Yang: Also I think, as a lot of older Beijing people, locals, have been saying that this is basically just trying to recreate that atmosphere of Beijing hutong hooligans , what (they) speak, so, it’s not about promoting bad language, it’s about... Luo Yu: It’s about character building. He Yang: Yes, part of character building, and also bringing you into that world that the movie is trying to create. Sam: And just to add a little bit of context here, there are a lot of great local British films, (and) the first one that comes to my mind actually is The Full Monty, where certain slightly stronger languages are used to emphasize the local Southern English characters in the film, and it’s done quite eloquently, and it dose enhance the feeling of the film. He Yang: Ok, and there is a few messages that I can only read out a couple, but I’ll try to do this eloquently. There is 李子发芽柳树开花Jerry. Hello. He says, this is what real life is, open up your eyes, guys, basically thinking that Tinghua professor that says that this is dirty, dirty, dirty, we have to protect everyone from it is an argument says that doesn’t hold any water. There is Earring saying that I think it’s OK, it’s necessary, even to have this kind of language in this movie "Lao Pao'er", and it basically contributes to the authenticity of building this characters and that is something that Luo Yu agrees with. And there is also Zhu Huiyao. Is that your name? Ooh, he or she says, anyhow, vulgar language is one essential part of this film. So, it’s sort of like spraying black pepper on your steak that is part of this dish, and without that black pepper, I guess that’s the vulgar language, so to speak, used here, then it wouldn’t be tasteful and wouldn’t be a nice dish that you would enjoy. So, yeah, wonderful analogy there.

【特别感谢热心听友曹英哲 Mobey帮忙听写本篇文稿】Heyang:《老炮儿》 or called , this movie has garnered critical acclaim as well as box office success, but what’s put it in the spotlight at the moment is the wild usage of street slang that a Tsinghua professor deemed “foul”. Is this foul language or just staying truthful to what “胡同”vernacular is. 电影《老炮儿》上映后，票房和口碑一路飙升，但是也有不少人指出，该片粗口太多、语言暴力尺度太大。据不完全统计，该片粗口累积出现高达上百次。爆粗口是角色需要还是迎合低趣味？在电影中到底该不该出现这样的粗口呢？HeYang:So...tell me more about this huge debate about ”is this language too dirty and foul?”Luo Yu: Well,let’s first focus on the movie itself. “Mr. Six” or “老炮儿” in Chinese, is a 2015 film directed by Mr. GuanHu and stars FengXiaogang, XuQing, LiYifeng and Chris Wu, WuYifan, the film centers on a once famous streetwise Hoodlum named Mr. Six, played by FengXiaogang, who lives in a lonely existence in Beijing Hutong, behind a small convenient store that he owns, diagnosed with the heart disease, he still recalls about the good old days, the film is a modern tale of Mr. Six, and he lives in a world that is bound to be destroyed by modernity, the film portrays the battle between him and a much younger drag-racing street gang leader, played by Wu Yifan. However, the foul language in the movie has sparked heated discussion. It is estimated that dirty words occurred in the film for over a hundred times.And from my point of view, I think it has to be in this way. It is staying truthful for the Hutong vernacular that you have just mentioned.HY: Yes, well, basically we are working for a prestigious national radio station so there is no way that we are gonna repeat those foul language or words on this show. But to give you an example or just a feel of what it is, I went to watch it last night with my mom, there is a whole bunch of, how should I put it, “saying Hi to your mom” and “saying Hi to your 大爷”, so...I mean it in the most polite way alright? So that’s the level of dirtiness we are talking about, if translate it into English I think there’s a lot of S-words and F-words but that’s about it. What you guys think?Sam: I would say for a film like this, it’s important to remember that this is actually part of a bigger story. When we look at cinema, we are talking about the idea of censorship against idea of rating something. So Oh Guys I’ve gotta be 100% honest here. We both know I’m from the United Kingdom so I’m gonna have a very obvious opinion of what I personally believe is right which is gonna be the system I grew up in. So I’ve never been a huge fan of censorship and I think a lot of the foreigners that come to Beijing feel the same way. It’s usually expressing our detest for the internet usage here, not being able to use facebook youtube and twitter. And this is another example of where censorship is being used instead of ratings because what the film association is saying is either the film is ok, or it’s not, if it’s ok, anyone can consume it. And it’s not the only example that you see this in China, so if you look at the alcohol industry the tobacco industry I checked this with several of our colleagues to make sure I didn’t get my information wrong this morning, and apparently there was no age limit on anyone that can buy tobacco here.HY: There is an age limit in the law but it’s not that difficult to get a packet in a very strict way. Sam: I’m not overly experienced but from my experience of having visited the night life in Beijing, I understand the pubs and bars also don’t check for identification as they do in the United Kingdom, and you don’t have an age limits system in the cinema, I’ve never seen a film where the people at the cinema have said “how old are you? Sorry you are too young for this film.” HY: Because there’s no such a system.Sam: I’m always gonna be of the mindset that we should have guidelines and tell us who this product is intended for and people are given a freedom to decide if it’s appropriate for them or not. As opposed to someone telling us it’s ok or it’s not. I think people should have that choice and this guideline should exist. And I think it’s a great opportunity here this ， as a platform to highlight this issue that maybe we should start thinking about guidelines in China.LY: I think you know, definitely many people have been calling for such rating system for film to be existent in China, however we haven’t seen the emergence of such system yet, but looking further into the future, I think definitely there has to be a rating system. Because apart from the vulgar languages or foul languages those hooligans used in this movie, there are also erotic scenes, I mean, two people having sex including FengXiaogang and XuQing, and you know... HY: Which you say with great enthusiasm. Thank you.LY: Definitely, that’s always a part of me. (oh...Excuse me...) and also we’ve seen a lot of violent scenes as well, so if you don’t rate them and put them into different categories, how can you guarantee the sanctity of children, I mean when they watch those films, they will feel a little bit puzzled, bewildered, you know what’s going on they tend to ask their parents? And literally when I watched this move in the movie theater, I heard some children asking their parents about what’s happening. And it’s very ridiculous.Sam: Heyang, you went to watch this film with your mother!HY: Yeah but I’m a grown woman! And...06:26Sam: But when we were kids, that’s was like the worst thing. Luo Yu, you must be able to relate to this. ( LY: I watched the movie alone). Did you and your parents ever watch a film at home when you were young? And there was a slightly more mature scene there. It was the most awkward moment ever when you’re sitting there with my mom. HY: I used to just walk away when that happens... It’s like Oh...I’m thirsty, Oh bathroom break and it always coincides with that sensitive scene.Sam: You didn’t get that urge during 《老炮儿》？HY: No，because I’m a grown woman, and I have a very mature relationship with my mom. And when we saw that in the cinema yesterday, I honestly wanted to cover my eyes, because I don’t want to see the buttocks of (who)FengXiaogang, I really don’t...Aha... I wish somebody could have warned me of that. So yes...LY: But there’s no difference. Not much difference when it comes to buttocks, so even if it’s FengXiaogang’s, it makes no difference.

Sam: So Liz, are you going to go to the doctor, or do I have to take you myself? Liz: Yes, yes, I'm planning on going. You don't have to force me; believe me, I feel terrible. Sam: Well, you look terrible. Liz: Oh thanks! That makes me feel better. Sam: You know what I mean. Look, you've had a temperature for two days, you have a sore throat, and you have no energy. If I were you, I would go immediately. Liz: Yes, I suppose you're right. It's just that.... Sam: What? Liz: I hate hospitals, and clinics, and needles, and pills.... Sam: So do I. I don't even like smell of hospitals, but what choice do you have? If you delay seeing a doctor, you might end up with an infection. And you know what that means. Liz: Yes, antibiotics. Okay, you've convinced me. I'll call and make an appointment.   Join me on my FACEBOOK page called Anna Fromacupofenglish; you're all welcome. Send your questions and comments to .  Please rate my app or buy it by clicking the link. // //   //  

Panel Sam Soffes (twitter github blog) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:13 - Sam Soffes Introduction Seesaw/@Seesaw 01:46 - Roon.io/@roon_app Drew Wilson Octopress 03:03 - Open Source in iOS Writing Tests Flurry TestFlight PLCrashReporter 09:00 - Open Sourcing Projects cheddar-ios Licensing 13:19 - Shared code between iOS and Mac 004 iPhreaks Show - Mac Development with Josh Abernathy Categories 17:48 - Contributions, Pull Requests & Bug Fixes 20:15 - Open Source Libraries CocoaPods 28:40 - Finding Reliable Libraries Rating Activity READMEs Cocoa Controls 32:44 - Contributing to Open Source Projects Consistency (tabs vs spaces) Testing Squashing Commits Submitting Code/Changes 38:09 - Cleaning Up Pull Requests 41:08 - Open Source at Seesaw SEEActivityIndicatorView Picks semver.org (Ben) Anker Astro3E Portable External Battery Pack (Ben) Cards Against Humanity (Ben) Travis CI (Pete) Pete Hodgson: Using Travis CI and xctool to build and test iOS apps (Pete) Reading Application Licenses (Pete) AppCoreKit (Rod) WatchESPN AppleTV App (Rod) Put Objective-C Back On The Map (Ben) David Siteman Garland: Create Awesome Online Courses (Chuck) How to Write a Nonfiction eBook in 21 Days by Steve Scott (Chuck) Amazon Prime (Chuck) Kickoff App (Sam) redcarpet (Sam) Next Week Backends Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 12 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel, we have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Buongiorno from rainy San Francisco this morning! CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: I can give you a very jet lagged hello from Houston! CHUCK: Rod Schimdt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest and that's Sam Soffes. Alright! SAM: Hello! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself real quick? SAM: Sure! I live in Kentucky right now. I work in a company called "Seesaw". I'm working on a bunch of little projects; Roon had been my main side project right now. CHUCK: Awesome. BEN: That's Roon, R-O-O-N.io, right? SAM: You got it! BEN: Yeah, I'm primed I've got the best username. All I need to do now is blog a little bit. [Laughter] BEN: So Roon is like a blogging platform. What makes it kind of compelling in comparison to some of the other things that are out there? SAM: It's a product I did with Drew Wilson. If you're not familiar with his work, he's a spectacular designer. I always wanted it that makes it really simple that we wanted to use, and hopefully other people wanted to use, too, so he just made something really simple that's really beautiful, and there's also a native iPhone app. The iPad app is like the universal, it's almost done; I'm submitting it, hopefully, this week. And we have a Mac app in the Pipeline. It's just like we wanted to make a really good writing experience that's simple and pretty and hopefully people like it. CHUCK: Awesome. BEN: Yeah,

Panel Sam Soffes (twitter github blog) Pete Hodgson (twitter github blog) Ben Scheirman (twitter github blog NSSreencast) Rod Schmidt (twitter github infiniteNIL) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:13 - Sam Soffes Introduction Seesaw/@Seesaw 01:46 - Roon.io/@roon_app Drew Wilson Octopress 03:03 - Open Source in iOS Writing Tests Flurry TestFlight PLCrashReporter 09:00 - Open Sourcing Projects cheddar-ios Licensing 13:19 - Shared code between iOS and Mac 004 iPhreaks Show - Mac Development with Josh Abernathy Categories 17:48 - Contributions, Pull Requests & Bug Fixes 20:15 - Open Source Libraries CocoaPods 28:40 - Finding Reliable Libraries Rating Activity READMEs Cocoa Controls 32:44 - Contributing to Open Source Projects Consistency (tabs vs spaces) Testing Squashing Commits Submitting Code/Changes 38:09 - Cleaning Up Pull Requests 41:08 - Open Source at Seesaw SEEActivityIndicatorView Picks semver.org (Ben) Anker Astro3E Portable External Battery Pack (Ben) Cards Against Humanity (Ben) Travis CI (Pete) Pete Hodgson: Using Travis CI and xctool to build and test iOS apps (Pete) Reading Application Licenses (Pete) AppCoreKit (Rod) WatchESPN AppleTV App (Rod) Put Objective-C Back On The Map (Ben) David Siteman Garland: Create Awesome Online Courses (Chuck) How to Write a Nonfiction eBook in 21 Days by Steve Scott (Chuck) Amazon Prime (Chuck) Kickoff App (Sam) redcarpet (Sam) Next Week Backends Transcript [This show is sponsored by The Pragmatic Studio. The Pragmatic Studio has been teaching iOS development since November of 2008. They have a 4-day hands-on course where you'll learn all the tools, APIs, and techniques to build iOS Apps with confidence and understand how all the pieces work together. They have two courses coming up: the first one is in July, from the 22nd - 25th, in Western Virginia, and you can get early registration up through June 21st; you can also sign up for their August course, and that's August 26th - 29th in Denver, Colorado, and you can get early registration through July 26th. If you want a private course for teams of 5 developers or more, you can also sign up on their website at pragmaticstudio.com.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 12 of iPhreaks! This week on our panel, we have Pete Hodgson. PETE: Buongiorno from rainy San Francisco this morning! CHUCK: Ben Scheirman. BEN: I can give you a very jet lagged hello from Houston! CHUCK: Rod Schimdt. ROD: Hello from Salt Lake City! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest and that's Sam Soffes. Alright! SAM: Hello! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself real quick? SAM: Sure! I live in Kentucky right now. I work in a company called "Seesaw". I'm working on a bunch of little projects; Roon had been my main side project right now. CHUCK: Awesome. BEN: That's Roon, R-O-O-N.io, right? SAM: You got it! BEN: Yeah, I'm primed I've got the best username. All I need to do now is blog a little bit. [Laughter] BEN: So Roon is like a blogging platform. What makes it kind of compelling in comparison to some of the other things that are out there? SAM: It's a product I did with Drew Wilson. If you're not familiar with his work, he's a spectacular designer. I always wanted it that makes it really simple that we wanted to use, and hopefully other people wanted to use, too, so he just made something really simple that's really beautiful, and there's also a native iPhone app. The iPad app is like the universal, it's almost done; I'm submitting it, hopefully, this week. And we have a Mac app in the Pipeline. It's just like we wanted to make a really good writing experience that's simple and pretty and hopefully people like it. CHUCK: Awesome. BEN: Yeah,