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$8.00 for a 2x4x8 and that is the contractors price? Really? Yeah it is true. With our lumber shortage Fortune Magazine is reporting a 134% price increase over last year in lumber and that effects all projects including remodeling. Lets talk about that plus what is coming up in this weekends Around the House with Eric G Thanks for listening to Around the house if you want to hear more please subscribe so you get notified of the latest episode as it posts at https://around-the-house-with-e.captivate.fm/listen . We love comments to we would love reviews on how this information has helped you on your house! Thanks for listening! For more information about the show head to https://aroundthehouseonline.com/ See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

On this episode of the podcast, we had a chance to chat with the founder of the CBR Gals, Rae Knopik. For those who don’t know, the CBR Gals is a not-for-profit organisation that focuses on helping females in Canberra connect and support one another through networking events. As Rae says in the episode, she started this initiative simply because she wanted it to exist. Being an American transplant, our guest knew all too well about how hard it is to find ways to connect with like-minded individuals in a way that isn’t forced or time-consuming. Despite realising this dream, however, our guest now faces a new set of challenges due to COVID-19. Thus Rae spends a great deal of the show discussing how she has adapted to running CBR Gals in this ‘new normal’, as well as the process behind running large scale events more generally. In this discussion, Rae highlights that authenticity, collaboration, and careful planning are the cornerstones of any successful event. Following this, the show then concludes (ironically we might add) with a discussion about how men being more closed off emotionally would make it difficult to create a group similar to the CBR Gals for males.  What we talk aboutThe CBR Gals and what networks like it can offerThe logistics of organising large scale eventsWhat does being a not-for-profit mean? Links from this episodehttps://cbrgals.com/ (CBR Gals Website)https://www.facebook.com/cbrgals (CBR Gals of Facebook)https://www.instagram.com/cbrgals/(CBR Gals on Instagram)https://twitter.com/cbrgals (CBR Gals on Twitter)Find us elsewherehttps://futuretri.be/ (Future Tribe Website)https://www.instagram.com/futuretri.be/ (Future Tribe on Instagram)https://www.linkedin.com/in/germainemuller/ (Germaine on LinkedIn)https://www.instagram.com/germa_ne/ (Germaine on Instagram)https://futuretheory.com.au/ (Futuretheory Website) Transcript Disclaimer: This transcript was generated automatically and as such, may contain various spelling and syntax errors[00:00:00] Rae: [00:00:00] But we did not get the grant and we're about two weeks out. And $20,000 down,[00:00:10] Intro: [00:00:10] welcome to the Future Tribe podcast, where we're all about taking your future to the next level, whether it is interviewing guests or unpacking strategies, you know, we will be talking about getting things done and backing you a fellow optimistic, go get up. And now as always, here's your host, the formidable fortunate and highly favoured [00:00:31] Germaine Muller.[00:00:34] Germaine: [00:00:34] Hello, future tribe. Welcome to another episode of the podcast on this week's episode, I've got Rae Knopik from CBR, gals or Canberra gals. Um, how are you today? Right. [00:00:44] Rae: [00:00:44] Great. Thanks for having me. [00:00:45] Germaine: [00:00:45] No worries. It's really good to have you. One of our first guests was Georgie from the women's collective. Um, and when I saw your name pop up and, and what you guys do, I sort of thought, ah, there's, there's some synergies [00:01:00] there.[00:01:00] I'm sure between. What the women's collective do or, or used to do. And then, um, what you guys do, um, tell me a bit, bit more about what you aim to do. [00:01:09] Rae: [00:01:09] Great. Thank you. Um, the Cambra gals network is a feminist not-for-profit organization that focuses on enabling every Canberran woman to be more in her personal and professional capacities and to connect to the greater act area through inclusive events.[00:01:27] So long story, short events based, not for profit for women. [00:01:30] Right. Okay. So, so very like completely events based or just majority events based or, um, [00:01:37] we like to create events through social media and through, um, like in person face to face meetings. [00:01:43] Germaine: [00:01:43] Right, right. How are you tackling COVID-19 and, um, everything that we're sort of facing at the moment there, [00:01:51] Rae: [00:01:51] it's a great question.[00:01:52] And when lockdown started happening in Cambra, um, anyone who's in events, we kind of say, Oh gosh, you know, what are we going to do? [00:02:00] How are we going to survive? But this was a really meaningful time for us to be there for our network. And what that meant was. Creating creative, online events where people could still meet and connect in a meaningful way.[00:02:14] Um, but it got a bit tricky, right? Because zoom exhaustion and going to a happy hour is really different than having a glass of wine or a bevy with 40 other little tiles. So we decided to get creative with it. And every half hour that we've had virtually, we actually deliver a goodie bag full of local kind of nibbles and drinks from local women run great brands to their doors.[00:02:41] So we're all kind of eating the same things and drinking the same bubbles, um, to kind of create that atmosphere. [00:02:48] Germaine: [00:02:48] Nice. Nice. So it's really been a time to experiment and innovate. One could say in how you deliver events now, are you sort of thinking when things go back to normal, I'm sure you can't replace like [00:03:00] in-person connections, especially when it comes to networking, but do you think there'll be an element of.[00:03:04] Virtual connections for, let's say Canberrans, who've gone overseas on a posting for three years. Or have you thought about that or is it still early days in terms of working out how you deliver in a postcode sort of scenario? [00:03:17] Rae: [00:03:17] Well, I think here we're gals network, we really try to turn all feedback into quantitative metrics.[00:03:24] So, um, what our metrics have been finding from these events is that. People love the virtual events. And there are women in Canberra, you know, we're neighbors who wouldn't necessarily go to person happy hour, but are perfectly happy meeting online. So because of that reason that these virtual events actually add a level of inclusivity that we didn't.[00:03:48] Have previously, so they're here today, for sure. [00:03:51] Germaine: [00:03:51] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, you raise a good point because if you're a mother or, you know, had a pet or had some reason why you didn't, [00:04:00] you couldn't get out of the house, this, or just didn't have a car, let's say, um, this sort of breaks down those barriers because you can sort of hop on and I guess it also removes.[00:04:11] An aspect or an element of in our, how am I going to present myself? Do I have really nice clothes and jewelry, but you, you sort of remove that to an extent don't you, when you sort of have to meet virtually, because it's almost in the control of, I mean, right now you could just turn off your screen and.[00:04:27] That's it like there's, there's nothing that I can do here. So it almost gives the power back to the people attending rather than, rather than having those social pressures that might, might be felt. [00:04:37] Rae: [00:04:37] And that's absolutely right. Jermaine. And in addition to that, we learned very recently that a lot of our, the people involved with this network don't drink.[00:04:45] And so a happy hour wouldn't necessarily early be something that's super interesting to them of interest. So in those kinds of goodie bags actually offer non alcoholic beverages and they feel like this is the best event for some people, they [00:05:00] feel this is great because it removes that kind of extra barrier as well.[00:05:04] So virtual events definitely here to stay. We're excited to get back into 'em face to face as well. [00:05:10] Germaine: [00:05:10] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, that's not a very good point. Like I found myself especially coming right out of school where a lot of people enjoyed the drinking. Um, I didn't enjoy it so March and that left me a little bit isolated.[00:05:25] And then, you know, not in like a that they obviously don't mean it in that way, but if you don't partake in those activities, You know, to the, to the full extent that, how does my it, um, then, then it does isolate you in some way, shape or form whether it's intentional or not. So, um, yeah, it sounds like it's been an interesting time for you guys and you've sort of almost found a different offering, um, that can sit.[00:05:48] Sit alongside what you are used to do and what you'll do hopefully, um, moving forward. So when did you start this whole endeavor? [00:05:57] Rae: [00:05:57] We'll be two in November of this [00:06:00] year. [00:06:00] Germaine: [00:06:00] Okay. So about a year and a half, or get getting close to two years now, you don't have. And Australian accent. Um, don't mean to, I don't mean to single you out, but, but give me an idea of, um, how old you are now.[00:06:13] How old are you, how old you were when you, I mean, did you come to Canberra or did you just grow up in Cambra with an sort of an American sounding accent? I might be wrong. Tell me a little bit about yourself. [00:06:25] Rae: [00:06:25] Thanks Jermaine. I am a Floridian, born and bred. After uni, I moved to Italy for two years, Florence to be specific.[00:06:34] I met my partner there and he's from Canberra. When he returned back to Canberra, he invited me to come and see where he lives and I did, and I never left. So that was two years ago in 2018. I had just turned 23, 25 now. And I've been here ever since. [00:06:52] Germaine: [00:06:52] Yeah. Wow. Okay. So what made you start this whole thing?[00:06:57] Like being. Was it, was it sort of a [00:07:00] being new to Canberra? I need something like this. Why don't I start it myself sort of thing. Or [00:07:06] Rae: [00:07:06] as you know, um, I always tell people that I never wanted to found this organization. I just wanted it to exist. And when I came here and if you've been in Canberra for a while, um, you'll see the changes that have happened to the city.[00:07:20] And it's amazing, remarkable. Even in the past two years, the social and infrastructure changes that are happening. It's amazing. Two years ago, though, there was no group for women that was a casual meeting place for people just to make connections. There was always some sort of activity that you had to partake in, whether it be bowling or.[00:07:43] Running around the Lake or things like that. And as a busy person, I found that I couldn't make those meetings. And also, I don't know if you've noticed this, but if you've ever moved to a new place and you find that it's hard to make connections, it becomes actually harder because you're not in your most confident [00:08:00] self.[00:08:00] And so it's not like a situation where you can say, Oh, I'm just going to go to a bar and meet people. If you're not in that mindset, it's very difficult. So after awhile, um, I. Was looking around trying to find this organization. And I just couldn't. So I decided, okay, I'm going to just make an Instagram page and see what happens and that's how it all started.[00:08:22] Germaine: [00:08:22] Wow. Okay. So about two years ago, you start an Instagram page. You call it CB or gals, I assume at the time as well. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And then give us an idea of sort of, what, what are the steps now the, my intention around asking this question is just trying to understand how you you've brought it to where it is now.[00:08:41] Like what were the early days? Like, because if there's someone who's listening who wants to start a community and, you know, especially nowadays I think with COVID, it's becoming even, even more. Essential, but like Facebook groups, forums, community groups, whether it's online, virtual staff or whether it's in person.[00:08:58] Um, I think [00:09:00] there's this huge, huge, I mean, even, even places like Reddit and discord, what they are to an extent is a community, right. Of people with ms with a common sort of goal or understanding. So for anyone who's listening, who wants to. Stop that, that journey down that path, give us an idea of what it was like at the start, what you did and how you were able to sort of grow so that we can learn from what you've been able to do.[00:09:26] Rae: [00:09:26] So I think that if you're listening to this and you're thinking about starting some sort of community of some kind, it's important to think about what it is you want to do and what the right thing is to do. And the more lineup you have, the more successful you will be because, um, goodness is recognized by everyone mostly.[00:09:49] And then what you want to do, if it's also what you want to do, you will pour yourself into that. And it won't matter if you're making money. It won't matter if there's millions of people following it, because it'll [00:10:00] be your baby. And it'll be exactly what it is that you want to do. And that was the camera gals for me.[00:10:06] And still is, and it holds it off. Sorry with this idea that it didn't matter who you were. Where you were from what you did, every gal of every age profession and in every season of life partake in this community, in whatever capacity you wanted. Um, and we would connect to just based on the idea that we are women and women together are so powerful, especially when they support each other women, when they support each other.[00:10:36] Magic happens. [00:10:38] Germaine: [00:10:38] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think they're like, I don't know if you watch the bachelor and this is people are going to judge me about this, but I was watching it yesterday and I just felt sad. Last night's episode was all like, everyone was just fighting, arguing, crying, and, and I just felt like it was a step back for [00:11:00] modern, like for society, just to, because it just.[00:11:03] It just set this wrong tone. Like I think I get it, they competing for a guy. Um, which just sounds weird to say. Um, but, but yeah, you know, you, you, you speak about the, the collective power that you have. Right. Which is, which is so true, because I think if you take up any, any sort of demographic and you.[00:11:21] Bring them as a collective group, they can really thrive in those situations. Right? Like I used to travel a lot when I was younger. I'm like move a lot. And we'd, we'd always been born in Sri Lanka. We'd always find the Sri Lankan community in the, in the new contract we go to, um, not intentionally, you just bump into like genuinely, we found the Sri Lankan community in Canberra because we went to church and there was a guy that was like, he looks really good going to go say hi, and that was it.[00:11:47] Like that was it. It wasn't like, yeah, it wasn't, you know, I'm going to go on Google, I'm going to on Facebook, try and find the Sri Lankan group. But, but all that's to say is that, you know, when you, when you come into a group, whether it's women or whether it's [00:12:00] Sri Lankans, or whether it's people with black hair, whatever the group it is, you can really create this.[00:12:06] This environment where everyone's comfortable and everyone can really thrive. But yeah, I don't know why I mentioned the bachelor, but I think it was because I'm just still disappointed about sort of how everything was portrayed yesterday and last night, sorry. That was just a lot of crying anyway. Um, but yeah, not losing track of what we're talking about.[00:12:26] So you started the Instagram page, you see, you started connecting with people I would assume. And then did you find that. People were messaging you or what was that next stage? And when did you have your first event or, or why did you like, was events going to be the ultimate goal when you started Instagram page in the first place?[00:12:43] Or how did that happen? [00:12:44] Rae: [00:12:44] You know, I had a feeling that it would be, um, I, there, I always start projects with the goal in mind or. The end in mind, that's really the goal. And I always imagined women getting together in this kind of way, like just to let's meet, you know, let's [00:13:00] just have a good time. And so I imagined it would be that way, but actually Jermaine, it took me so long.[00:13:08] And by so long, I mean about three or four months to gain the courage to actually put that first event out there because, um, I didn't tell anyone that I was doing this, not my friends that I had made here, um, about my partner knew of course, cause he was the one cheering me on. But, um, I didn't tell anyone because I was so afraid that somebody would turn to me and say, How could you start a page called the Canberra gals?[00:13:33] You're not even kidding from camera. You're not even Australian. Right. And when you're starting something new, you just want to keep going. You just want the momentum, right? You don't want anyone to tell you, you can't do this because. Everything's so scary and everything's so big that you feel like you might crumble under that.[00:13:52] And that's how I felt. So it took until February of 2019, a few months after I started the page for me to [00:14:00] actually get the gods. Put it on meetup, put it on a Facebook event, make it a free, happy hour, just come buy a drink, like not going to argue anything. And we're just going to get together. And I had no idea how many people were going to show up people RSVP, but with free event, you can just decide you're not [00:14:17] Germaine: [00:14:17] going to exactly which I used to be involved with.[00:14:22] Um, Um, events and sort of marketing for a, for a big business, I guess you would call it. And, you know, it's very true, like having a free event. I think there were times that we, we were getting like a 10% turn up rate. So, because it's so easy to click, you know, and, and you know, so we're still talking like 300 people said that come and we prepped for like 80 and we'd get 40.[00:14:45] So it wasn't, it wasn't sort of too crazy. Cause I think 300 people, I don't think the venues would have even. 300 people, but it is a good point that you raised, like, you can just hit, okay, I'm going to go and events take a [00:15:00] lot of organizing, but as it sounds like, what you did was you lowered your well, everyone else's barrier to entry, which makes it much easier.[00:15:09] And then you low lowered sort of what you were attempting to do with the first one. So that it's almost like a proof of concept rather than, you know, This amazing conference over three days and you had to organize every single moving part. Um, so is, is that sort of a tip there that you just want to, you know, just test the waters initially?[00:15:29] Rae: [00:15:29] I think that that's a really good tip, um, for sure to just test the water, see interests, see who might want to do this. Um, but also. Be very clear with your marketing, what you're doing. And we had 12 people come to the first event. And for me, I created the page because I wanted to change one person's life.[00:15:49] Other than my own, I would already change mine. I knew that, but if I had just changed, made a difference for one person, it would have been worth it. But for all 12 people to RSVP and then come, [00:16:00] I was thinking to myself, okay, like this is needed and I can do free events. Like this is not a big deal. It's bringing.[00:16:07] People into a venue that may have not had people on a Tuesday night. Um, you know, people are out spending money, which is great for the economy and we're connecting on something that's bigger than ourselves. Something that will have a legacy later on. So I would say if you're thinking about doing events of some kind, be very clear about what the event is and what people can expect, and then just.[00:16:29] Let the rest happen. [00:16:30] Germaine: [00:16:30] Yeah. And if it's a proof of concept, you know, all you've got to deliver as an event organizer. Um, well, all that is within your control. So, you know, if you say, um, all it is going to be is you turn up, I've booked a table and you buy yourself a drink and you sit down and we talk.[00:16:46] That's pretty easy to deliver,[00:16:52] Rae: [00:16:52] deliver. [00:16:53] Germaine: [00:16:53] Exactly. And then set the bar as, as, as low as possible that it's still something, but [00:17:00] it's so, you know, it's higher than what, what someone would be able to just do by themselves. And what you then do is really facilitate the coming together of. People. Um, now that can, as, as you've found now with the virtual stuff, it might also then evolve to, to facilitate the delivery of goodies and nibbles.[00:17:18] It might, it might be booking, booking an event. I know that, uh, a lot of them people nowadays, one they're busy, but two. Probably because they're busy and maybe because they're lazy, they're just the last thing they want to do is organize things for themselves. Like, I don't want to, I want to catch up with friends, but I'm not going to organize past sort of messaging one person being like, Hey, do you want to catch up for lunch?[00:17:40] And that, that would be it. And, and so what you've been able to do at the core is to bring and facilitate those, those groups of people. Now, as you sort of. Started to get momentum. What, what sort of business structures or did you, did you, I think you mentioned that are not for profit. Is, are you like a registered?[00:17:58] Not for profit, not for [00:18:00] profit or. [00:18:01] Rae: [00:18:01] Yeah, so in, um, Oh gosh, it was a, about a year ago now. Um, we had just hosted our first panel and the reason why this is important is because before we were hosting happy hours, we were hosting events called clothing swaps, which I'll get into later. Um, and we were hosting mostly fun, very what I would classify as feminine things, um, just to do for fun and [00:18:26] Germaine: [00:18:26] like social events.[00:18:27] Really? Yeah. [00:18:28] Rae: [00:18:28] Absolutely. But we would do like very photo graphic picnics up at Mount Strom, low with gorgeous grazing boards and photo shoots and things like that, [00:18:39] Germaine: [00:18:39] of that nature.  just, just sort of re you know, really, I mean, it's not, I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just, it's what people, that's what your target group wants to do.[00:18:49] And that's, that's awesome. And it probably helps being in the dark target group as well, because you sort of finger Oh, I want to do that. Well, I'm sure everyone else wants to do it. [00:19:00] Let's do it. So sorry. I got you off. Keep going. [00:19:04] Rae: [00:19:04] We decided to host this panel and it was called the moment of yes. And it was, the idea was when five powerful Canberran women had found their calling that moment of yes, I did it and I was at the time working alone and I basically cold called anyone.[00:19:24] I knew. Uh, I didn't know anyone. I had no contacts that I came here except for my partner. Um, and I called everyone that I knew of and was just like, we're doing this panel. It's going to happen in a month. Would you be interested? Um, this is kind of the idea and. I reached for people like Julia Gillard, like people that I knew, I probably wouldn't be able to get a hold of.[00:19:48] And I reached for local people like Trish Bergin, who at the time was the first assistant secretary for the office of women who I also knew because she lived nearby me. So I thought that we might have that connection. [00:20:00] So there was a range of people, right? I had an okay chance of maybe getting, and then probably not.[00:20:06] I will tell you Jermaine over the coming months, although not everyone responded right away, every single person responded and said, this is something that I would love to do. [00:20:18] Germaine: [00:20:18] Wow. [00:20:19] Rae: [00:20:19] And so that for me was a big wake up call. Cause I was thinking to myself, you know, it's not just me, I'm not in this echo chamber of this is awesome.[00:20:26] You know, this was a moment for me of yes. When I realized that this is something that's very important, this is something that much is much bigger than me. It's something that's much bigger than just the people that were on that panel. What do we do with it? What do we do? Um, and this was also the first event that people paid for.[00:20:45] Every other event up until that point was completely free to attend. Um, so we had to decide what we were going to do with finances, um, and how we were going to be responsible to keep the integrity of what we had. And that [00:21:00] was when, um, I collaboration with my partner decided that we would move into the not-for-profit field and.[00:21:07] We had no idea what we were doing. You got a lot of advice. Um, we tossed up whether to be a social equity startup or a not-for-profit and we ultimately ended up deciding that. The integrity of what we had built was a not-for-profit. So we took about two months to fill all of the paperwork became incorporated and then started building our board of people.[00:21:33] Now, what was interesting is that the board pretty much assembled based on interests. So who was there? Um, at the time and Shannon Beckwith who had been at every event, she had helped me, um, really from. Early early days. I think I had just hosted the first event. And then she came on and wanted to help with everything.[00:21:52] We had no experience between the two of us, but we were ready to learn and we were ready to build this thing that was going to be bigger than us. So she [00:22:00] became my vice president and still is of the board. And then the team assembled from that. And since that day we've been in, not-for-profit made of a completely volunteer board.[00:22:08] Um, with the president, secretary treasurer and vice president. [00:22:13] Germaine: [00:22:13] Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, um, is, has that been about 12 months? Did you say. [00:22:18] Rae: [00:22:18] Yes. [00:22:19] Germaine: [00:22:19] Has that, has that allowed you to, has that changed sort of how you can, um, how you do what you do to an extent by having, having that, um, that structure around you, do you think that's added anything or do you think it was more just nice to get that sort of legal standing, um, and legal establishment?[00:22:38] What, what what's sort of changed since then? Do you think. [00:22:42] Rae: [00:22:42] Well, what's been so amazing is that we're really particular about who would come onto the board. And the reason for that was because I had read. So many horror stories of, gosh, what is it called? It's it's, there's a word for this in, not for profit [00:23:00] world where you build your board yeah.[00:23:01] Around friends and family, and that your board gets lazy because they don't feel like they have to contribute anything. Um, so I decided to build the board based on the best people available. And what that is created is an amazing, an amazing network. Sorry, my phone keeps going off. Sorry about that. An amazing network of, of individuals who bring so much to the table.[00:23:26] So for example, you have me, you have Shannon. Shannon is to lay in Australian and brings a wealth of experience from living all over the planet. Declan Nori, who is my partner, is the treasurer of the board. He's also the most qualified person for numbers that I could imagine. And he brings a male perspective, which is very interesting and so valid because.[00:23:47] Um, as a male feminist for change, um, he brings up perspective of how can we still be inclusive for everyone? While still effecting change in Canberra. And then finally we have Ruth [00:24:00] Asher. Who's the secretary of the board who grew up in the UK. So she brings another rich international experience to this and also a, an element of.[00:24:11] I understand what it's like to be on the outside of things. Um, what it's like to be an announcer or, and how do we create a more inclusive environment for everyone? So it's been wonderful to have this team working on this with me because they bring such a wealth of different experiences. Yes, we're all young, but we're also ready to see real changes in Canberra and the world.[00:24:31] Germaine: [00:24:31] Yeah, that's amazing. And like you said, bringing that, what I loved hearing when you were mentioning that there are, um, I mean, part of your board is a person who's not even a female. And then there there's, um, people who are from overseas or everyone's from overseas that will grow, grew up in Australia for a little bit, perhaps.[00:24:50] But what they already know is what it is like to be, you know, be a bit of an outsider. Feel not quiet, like you fit in because it's easy to fit in when everyone has the same acts, [00:25:00] everyone has the same hair color or whatever it may be, or the same upbringing. So what you, what you can then do, obviously with this team is create scenarios and situations where everyone feels accepted because you go in without any sort of prejudice around things.[00:25:14] Now you mentioned your partner who is involved with, with what you guys do. I've got a bit of a interesting question for you and, um, you probably get this, but I find that there aren't many groups like this for men. Um, has he ever felt that, have you ever had this conversation with him? Why do you think there isn't aren't groups like this for men?[00:25:38] Um, or, or perhaps there are, and I've never heard of them. [00:25:42] Rae: [00:25:42] That's a good question. And it's actually something that we've discussed since the beginning of the Cambra gals at the very first camper gal is happy hour. I love to tell this story. He. Came to the bar with a couple of his guy, friends to make sure that people showed up and if they didn't be there.[00:25:58] Um, and [00:26:00] he would always joke to say, we're going to start the Canberra guys network that has not happened yet, but I would love to see that happen one day, because I think that there's so many, there are groups that form our own sport, but you run into the same exact problems that. Women toxic women groups can have, um, you can have them in male groups as well.[00:26:20] And one group that I would love to see happen for Canberra for men would be around like an actual. Friendship based group that, how do I say this? Um, doesn't contribute to the lack of emotional connections. Cause I feel like it is met. Male relationships are so different because there's so many stigmas around sharing how you're feeling.[00:26:45] And what is actually going on in your life that I would love to see like real connections form and real change happen within male culture, which would be a really difficult group to host. But I hope to see it happen one day. [00:26:57] Germaine: [00:26:57] Yeah. I mean, I've, I've gone down [00:27:00] this road myself. Um, when I was at the university of Canberra, um, I was sort of part of the initial group that founded the entrepreneurship society at UC and.[00:27:11] That experience alone, let alone everything else that I've, that I've sort of experienced, um, has shown me how difficult it can be to create groups like this, but then you take for better or worse sort of the, the mindset around a lot of men. Um, and you know, you get in, you get scenarios where when you group bringing them to groups, it can sometimes bring out, bring out the toxic.[00:27:35] Um, it happens in, in all sorts of groups, you know, I can even think of even talking about, say, A group of Sri Lankans. I can see how, you know, they all get together. They all get together all the time suddenly. Cause they says, share something in common that might be toxic from the outside, but for them it isn't because it's this, it's what they've grown up with.[00:27:54] Um, and like inevitably you end up with. Something that's toxic, but, [00:28:00] but only it's not really toxic. It's just because it's exaggerated supported and then encouraged within that group because it is accepted within that group. Um, yeah. And so bringing, bringing sort of men into this sort of equation and conversation, there are a number of things that I can see that can, um, For worse, really get exaggerated.[00:28:21] And then, and then, you know, you talked about real connection, I, for some reason, um, and, and, you know, I would love to be part of some group that changes this, but I don't see, you know, the, the group. Getting really around exaggerated, like fear. It's probably going to be around. Yeah. Like, it'd be awesome, but it's probably going to be around cars and street racing or drinking or, or gambling and, you know, And this is not to say that that's what all guys do, but there is always that risk.[00:28:53] And like you mentioned, it's, it's gotta, it's gotta be very carefully managed because, um, guys for better or worse thing can [00:29:00] sometimes get a little bit carried away with something and, you know, go take that one step too far, like do 140 Ks an hour in a, in an 80 straight, you know, when you're going for a cruise with your mates, cause you think it will be the coolest thing to do.[00:29:13] So. It does bring that sort of dimension of difficulty, but like, like you I'd love to see something like that happen, I think is it could [00:29:20] Rae: [00:29:20] be those activities as well that contribute to it. But what I'm thinking more of is I'd love to see men can be so guarded, um, and women aren't. Really like this in, they can be, of course, but if you get women together and you talk about a specific part, they're more willing.[00:29:37] I find in my experience to share their, their personal experiences and for men, that's much harder to do because we have these societal culture of. I'm not really, I'm going to tell you something, but I'm not going to actually share. I'm going to hold back a bit. This is good for men. Um, because the emotions then that they bring [00:30:00] into later in life, when they have more confidence, they bring to their partners, they bring to their kids, um, and it kind of just all comes out at once.[00:30:07] Well, you know, this comes later in life, but how can we kind of prevent that from happening? Can we create stronger connections with men without a stigma of, I can't talk about things that are going on. Do you find that that's something that has happened? Yeah, [00:30:20] Germaine: [00:30:20] completely. I mean, what it brings this brings out in me is so I, I think I'm an introvert.[00:30:26] Most people would disagree with that, but I also like to have genuine conversations and now it's nothing forced. It's just something that, you know, I like to get into the actual nitty gritty stuff. Um, and it's never going to be me saying, you know, tell me, you know, I like all the, all the bad things happening in your life and on rebel to me, it's just more, let's have an actual conversation.[00:30:47] And funny enough, having that approach, I hear it from, I've heard it from partners. I've heard it from friends. Um, the response to that tends to be, wow. You know, you, first of all, you like to [00:31:00] talk a lot, but second, you also like. Talk about like, you really get, get in there sort of. And I, and, and, and it's almost like there's a way, like, it's almost traded as like, this is peculiar.[00:31:12] Like, um, we, we moved recently about, I was in February and I know both neighbors really well, and you know, my partner is, so it is a little bit like. Like I don't, I think she's spoken to one of them maybe, but like, I know what they do for work. How many kids they have, you know, what their partners do. Like I know everything, but it is seen as, sorry.[00:31:36] Rae: [00:31:36] That's lovely. [00:31:37] Germaine: [00:31:37] Oh, it's awesome. And I, and I enjoy it, but I think it is definitely seen as a little bit of like, I don't want to say weird, but you know, not, not what people expect [00:31:47] Rae: [00:31:47] out of a guy. [00:31:49] Germaine: [00:31:49] And that's what I don't understand. Yeah. Like why can't we, why can't guys have this conversation that like, I think you would probably, is it fair to say that you'd be surprised if a guy came up to [00:32:00] you and had a conversation to you in a similar style that you would have with one of your, um, sort of female friends?[00:32:07] Um, is that, is that fair to say [00:32:08] Rae: [00:32:08] most women would assume they're being hit on, which is terrible, right. Puts men in this box of what they can and cannot share. And that's not good for men. It's not good for women either. [00:32:19] Germaine: [00:32:19] It's not good for anyone. It's really not good for anyone. Exactly. Cause what we're talking about is compartmentalizing and then just not sort of really reflecting your, your true self, um, which.[00:32:31] Which you just end up, you know, um, either putting away and then forgetting that like you're, uh, yeah, you're a guy you're also a human being or, you know, it just gets worse and worse and worse. And then one day you just have a, have a meltdown or, um, have a midlife crisis and, and there's a normalized aren't they?[00:32:52] And it's just a sad thing, but, you know, perhaps, um, Perhaps something that I can, I can get involved in and try and try and [00:33:00] change now, um, let's get into, we've talked about the awesome stuff that you've been able to do. Do any mistakes come to mind or things that things that you've done that, you know, next time around you'll, you'll, it'll just be easier to avoid than to do again, [00:33:14] Rae: [00:33:14] you know, I.[00:33:16] I have a hard time talking about mistakes because I learn from them and the camera gals would not be what it is without those mistakes. So I wouldn't change them, but I will talk about a huge error that I, um, that I personally was responsible for. Uh, last month when we were creating the connect up gala, and this was a, an in person gala that was.[00:33:40] For 100 people at hotel realm. Now we initially there was a grant created by a governor body here in Canberra for event makers like us to create events, um, for Canberrans. So we applied to this grant and. Jermaine, we assumed we would get it. Like [00:34:00] it was, it was one of those situations where we made it made a gala that would cost $20,000 to create, um, for a hundred people.[00:34:09] And it would have all of these beautiful things. It would bring in all of these vendors, local vendors at hotel realm, people get fucked up. There's a photo wall, there's live music, there's giveaways and action items. And all of [00:34:21] Germaine: [00:34:21] that. [00:34:23] Rae: [00:34:23] For real event, you know? Right. Yeah. And so we submitted that grant application mid June, I think.[00:34:32] And they would let us know mid July, but the event was going to be on for, um, the 25th of July. And so that meant we had to get started before we knew. Right. And I think that you're going to be able to tell how the story goes, but we did not get the grant and we're about two weeks out and $20,000 down.[00:34:59] We'd already [00:35:00] sold 50% of our tickets way below the price of what it would cost to actually attend the event. The like cost per head is about $150 and people were paying a hundred dollars or less. Um, so we found ourselves in this position of if you're a not for profit board. Um, nobody owns the company.[00:35:22] It's not like a standard for profit company where you can go into debt and foreclose. If the not-for-profit own owes money, the board is responsible. Right? [00:35:35] Germaine: [00:35:35] Wow. Personally, [00:35:37] Rae: [00:35:37] personally liable. And if we were to. The bite off more than we can choose. Say for 20 something year olds with no money, I have to pay $20,000.[00:35:48] The company would go under. Um, and we would never be able to legally, I don't remember the legal term, I guess it's not really that relevant, but we would never be able to. Open a company in our names in Australia, [00:36:00] again, if that happened. Wow. [00:36:01] Germaine: [00:36:01] Yeah. So you basically like get blacklisted. [00:36:06] Rae: [00:36:06] So, um, we didn't get the grant and, you know, we thought that we would at least get something.[00:36:10] Even if we didn't get the full 20, we thought we'd at least get something. We didn't get anything. Um, and so we had already started moving forward. We already had 10 panelists. Who were pretty high color Canberrans, um, that we really respected and we wanted them to respect us who had never heard of us before.[00:36:29] Um, and it, it was, again, one of these situations of, I really believe in what you're doing, let's do it. And my mistake there was selling tickets. With the sure. Surefire thought that we had that grant and not having a backup plan. So then basically the story does end well. Um, we scrambled, we had to adjust ticket prices.[00:36:52] We went to every sponsor that we could possibly think of and offered them amazing deals on advertising [00:37:00] and we made it work. Um, wow. [00:37:03] Germaine: [00:37:03] That's amazing. [00:37:04] Rae: [00:37:04] Um, and we actually didn't go into debt. None of those terrible things happen, we were able to move forward. But yeah, that mistake of not creating a backup budget was that I lost a lot of sleep over that.[00:37:18] Let's just say, [00:37:19] Germaine: [00:37:19] yeah, that would have been insane. And I think the big takeaway to me is that in life, nothing's a sure fire thing. So don't, don't do things, make decisions and act, act, and plan as is. Everything's just going to happen and it's going to be like, it's good to have. I think that possibly positivity, like, don't get me wrong because you know, in, in my business every day we do stuff that we're not like no one goes into something saying I'm going to work hard at this and it's going to fail.[00:37:49] No one, no one goes into it with that, that sort of approach. But you've got to always temper it with a, with a. Bit of, you know, just being realistic about it and sort of going, you know, there's [00:38:00] actual money involved yet. There's people who actually have to cough up money. We actually have to pay all these different entities and just never losing sight of the fact that it is real life.[00:38:11] There are real implications and they're real, real things that need to happen and real things that don't happen. So, um, yeah, that's a, that's a massive takeaway, but it's impressive that you were able to get out of that. Um, That hole that you dug yourself? [00:38:26] Rae: [00:38:26] I think that part of it too, is my team. The three Rohit, Shannon and Declan are all very logical, realistic people.[00:38:34] So when I went to them and told them this, they basically said, if you don't come because I was in charge of the budget, um, for sponsors, if you don't come up with. This much money in sponsors by this week, this time, um, we're cutting the cord. You're no longer allowed to do this. So they were the kind of there.[00:38:54] But I think the reason in a way with that in mind, so you have that, [00:39:00] but I think another reason why we were so successful is because I saw it happening, like. It was one of those moments where I was like, I see this it's going to happen. I don't know how, I don't know why. Um, but I even like one very sleepless tonight woke up and like scribbled on a piece of paper.[00:39:18] I think the exact words were, I'm excited to see the connect up gala succeed have more sponsors than we need and be a total hit. And so it was. So I think that if you, you know, if you're scared, you know, a lot's at stake, but if you have that real vision and it's really there and you see it, um, the red sea will part so to speak and it will happen well and, [00:39:40] Germaine: [00:39:40] and envision what the final product looks like.[00:39:43] So you know where you want to go. And then it's much easier to reverse engineer. You know, if someone told you, build me a car, That's that's very difficult, but if you, someone said he a car, you can actually take it apart and look at it. You want, and then put it back together. Okay. It's going to be harder, but it's [00:40:00] not impossible.[00:40:00] It was, you know? Um, so by doing that by envisioning, okay, this is what it's going to be. I'm sure you have to reverse engineer. Like sounds like they did the numbers, for example, very simple, but they did the numbers and they went. Okay. We are $10,000 short. You need to find, you know, whether it's 10 different sponsors at a thousand dollars each, or, you know, whatever it may be, we need to get to this Mark.[00:40:22] And by doing that, you just really map out a blueprint of how you get, get, where you want to go. Um, and you just got a temporary or with realism, you know, Yeah. Yeah, that's it. That's it. And just, just work for it. So that's awesome. What do you, what do you guys hope to do moving forward in the next six to 12 months?[00:40:40] Rae: [00:40:40] This is always such a beautiful question. Um, when people ask, but the goal of Canberra gals is what it's doing. It's currently functioning exactly the way that it's supposed to. So I think that the most important thing that we do is manage the growth because over the past, Six months alone, we've doubled in size.[00:41:00] [00:41:00] And so knowing how to manage that growth and still connect to people on that, like very small 10 people happy hour one-on-one level, even if [00:41:09] Germaine: [00:41:09] there's intimate. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. [00:41:13] Rae: [00:41:13] You really important. So what I think that means is more advisors to the board. You know, we always need to be learning about this growing entity that we've created and also having more spokespeople for the Canberra gals so that you can go around the room.[00:41:29] You can have. More board members basically go around the room and say, how are you going? How's the event for you? Make sure everyone feels welcomed because at the end of the day, like Kimbra gals was created for Canberra, not the board, not me, no one else. So we need to make sure that we're managing the individuals that are involved with this network, um, and making them feel welcome and included.[00:41:52] Germaine: [00:41:52] Yeah. I mean, that's, it's really exciting to be being the position that you are. Um, and, and it's really smart that you're thinking [00:42:00] about how, how to manage growth and, and do those things that I think sometimes you can forget in the excitement of it all, because managing growth, isn't very fun because it's much, much more fun to be like, Hey guys, we're doubling every month, whatever it is.[00:42:12] And, and just, you know, sit in, sit in that success as people, you know, Comments comment, congratulations, and give you all the likes and all that stuff. It's very easy to get lost in that, that it's, um, it's much harder to sort of think about the real things that you've got to go to, got to work on and navigate, and really, really finesse as you, as you grow and change while still maintaining what it is that, especially in what you do, like you mentioned, maintaining the same level of intimacy and connectedness and conversation in a 50 people group is much.[00:42:46] Much more difficult and different to doing that in a 10 person group. So, um, you've got to, yeah, you've got some exciting things ed for you now, where can people find out more about what you guys do? [00:42:56] Rae: [00:42:56] We're on every social media as CBR gals, [00:43:00] or you can check out our website, CBR, gals.com. [00:43:03] Germaine: [00:43:03] Awesome. Okay. Um, Are you ready for the top 12?[00:43:07] Rae: [00:43:07] I'm ready. [00:43:09] Germaine: [00:43:09] Okay. Let's roll into it. So top three books or podcasts that you recommend. [00:43:13] Rae: [00:43:13] So I'm on a mission to read 52 books a year. I started this last year and met my goal and this year and there again, so I'm a big fan of books. Um, my favorite two books that I've read in the past decade have been the four hour work week by Tim Ferris because Tim Ferris.[00:43:32] Taught me so much about creating your own dreams. And I read his book for the first time when I was probably 17. So it was really fun, foundational, and like, just following your notes. And then I love Don Norman's classic design, the design of everyday thing. Um, and his whole notion is that people don't see bad design or people don't see.[00:43:54] Good design, good design is invisible because. You live in this world where everything works. People [00:44:00] only see bad design. So I love to create events and to create programs around that idea that. If nobody says anything, it means it's been a total hit. People will tell you if it's bad. [00:44:11] Germaine: [00:44:11] Yeah, definitely. [00:44:13] Rae: [00:44:13] And then my favorite podcast is probably a drink with James by four.[00:44:17] Um, and this is a podcast all about social media, specifically Instagram and James Ford founded this, not for profit company in New York city called for co that helps people become influencers on social media, but it really talks about. All of the changes in social media, and it gets really down into the dirty, meaty gritty of how these social platforms work.[00:44:39] So listening to him and meeting him in person when I visited New York city was so, um, it helped me learn so much because you know, when I started this page, I didn't know what I was doing. [00:44:51] Germaine: [00:44:51] Love it, love it. Those are really solid recommendations. Um, top three software tools that you can't live without. [00:44:58] Rae: [00:44:58] Oh, gosh, Google [00:45:00] analytics, tick Canva tick.[00:45:03] And then, Oh, third one. I think the Elementor I couldn't live without. It's a, um, it's a, yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:45:13] Germaine: [00:45:13] Yeah. Um, how do you, how do you take it, your events? Do you use, uh, event ticketing platform, like event bright? [00:45:19] Rae: [00:45:19] No, I, we did for a long time. I, um, I ended up getting a little bit frustrated with all of the ticketing platforms out there, because even if you're a, not for profit, they still take.[00:45:31] Money from, um, the gross sale. And so I was thinking to myself, I'm just going to build one. So we use one through Cambra, gals.com. [00:45:38] Germaine: [00:45:38] Okay. Nice, nice. That's um, that's awesome. Um, top three mantras. You try to live. [00:45:45] Rae: [00:45:45] Gosh. Um, my first one is just follow your nose. Like you don't need to have this plan of what your life of what you want your life to look like, because things are very fluid, especially in 2020.[00:45:56] So follow what you love is number one. [00:46:00] The second one is, I think I mentioned this earlier. If what if you're trying to figure out what you want to do with your life, if you figure out what it is you want, and then what is the best thing for everyone else, you will be successful. And then finally, I don't know, third mantra.[00:46:17] It's hard. It's very hard. Follow your gut. Gut feelings are real fearful feelings. [00:46:22] Germaine: [00:46:22] Yep. Love it. Love it. Awesome. And then top three people you follow or study and why. [00:46:30] Rae: [00:46:30] You know, I knew that this was going to be us. There's so many people that I know Meyer this life. Um, recently I met Kim Rubinstein here in Canberra and she's the co-director for the 50 50 foundation at the university of Canberra.[00:46:49] And she was one of the first people that I met, who embodied leadership in like. Her own feminine sense. And [00:47:00] I was so impressed by that because leadership has been a masculine thing since time started, but Kim is her own kind of warm leader that makes you actually like she's a transformational leader.[00:47:14] So she makes you want to do that, that thing that she does because she's so in it herself. Um, so I definitely follow Kim Rubinstein. Um, People, one of my, my mom, probably Andrea shady got out in Florida. And then finally, who shall I pick last, at least for today, I have to pick Tim Ferriss. I'll probably be embarrassed by this later.[00:47:40] I love Tim Ferris. I always have, there's a couple of things that we don't always agree on, but I think he's unapologetically himself and I'd like to be a bit more like that too. [00:47:50] Germaine: [00:47:50] That's true. He likes to experiment with like, um, different, weird herbs and stuff like that. Doesn't he is that is that I always mix up.[00:47:59] There's this [00:48:00] sort of group of people who do awesome stuff, but then, um, do borderline stuff that I don't necessarily agree with that I lumping as, as one group. Cause yeah. They like to experiment on their body and do stuff that I just, I don't have the luxury of doing so [00:48:16] Rae: [00:48:16] nice. [00:48:18] Germaine: [00:48:18] Exactly. Just watching. Just go cool.[00:48:20] That's happening to them? Not to me. I'm I'm okay with that. Awesome. Um, once again, Ray, thank you for your time. Um, and um, yeah, all the best with, uh, Canberra gals, [00:48:32] Rae: [00:48:32] Thanks Germaine, this was super fun. [00:48:35] Outro: [00:48:35] Thank you for listening to the future tribe podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review on your podcast app.

Dr. Ginger Campbell is the host of Brain Science, a very large neuroscience podcast, and one of the earliest neuroscience podcasts created. In this episode, she discusses the podcast itself, why and how she started it up, as well as what it takes to run a neuroscience podcast. Top three takeaways: If you want to make a scientific podcast, you must understand the workload that comes with it. It takes a lot to generate accurate scientific content for your listeners. When doing a scientific podcast, it is critical to think about your audience. It can be very helpful to try to reach those outside your field, especially in science, as there is a need for this communication. When picking a topic for your podcast, pick something that you are passionate about, and something that you can talk about easily. [0:00] Ladan introduces the episode and the guest, Ginger Campbell [3:30] Campbell explains why she chose neuroscience as the topic for her podcast [6:45] The subject that Campbell is most interested in right now is the intrinsic activity of the brain [10:15] One author suggests that we should do away with the idea of the mind, and focus more on how the brain as an organ interacts with the world around it [12:45] To make a scientific podcast, one must realize that there is a tremendous workload involved. Creating accurate scientific content for a podcast is much different than making a podcast talking about your favorite TV show or sports team. [16:30] Authors enjoy coming onto the podcast for the publicity, as obtaining publicity can be very difficult, and being a guest on a popular podcast can be very beneficial [19:00] When doing a science podcast, you need to deeply think about the audience you are trying to reach. Communicating with those outside your field about what your field does is very beneficial in building a good audience, as there is a need for this type of communication. [22:15] Be careful of goofing off at the beginning of shows and going off on irrelevant tangents early in the episode, or it may prompt some audience members to stop listening [26:00] Campbell started the podcast because she has an interest and a knack for explaining science, the same way she explains medicine to her patients [29:30] Due to the current economic crisis happening, podcasters depending on advertising will likely suffer within the near future [31:00] For those wanting to do a podcast, it is important to pick a subject that you are passionate about. Talk about what you know and what interests you. [34:30] It is easier to make a podcast about neuroscience than about quantum mechanics, because everyone has a brain, whereas quantum mechanics do not affect people’s lives [37:00] Listener feedback is what will really keep you going when it gets tough [39:00] Ladan gives further thoughts on the discussion and discusses the services of Neural Implant Media   TRANSCRIPT (Auto-generated): Welcome to the neural implant podcast where we talk with the people behind the current events and breakthroughs in brain implants and understandable way, helping bring together various fields involved in Euro prosthetics. Here is your host, Latin Yara. Check. Hello everyone, and welcome to the neural implant podcast. Today we have a special guest. It's ginger Campbell of the brain science. Podcast, and I'm really happy to have her on the show. She is an O, G original gangster of the neuroscience podcasting space. She's been doing this since 2006 and the really one of the pioneers of podcasting, she says podcasting started in 2004 so she's not completely. The first person to do this, but that was like 1415 years ago, so you know, we can call it pretty much like that. So really interesting stuff. She's had over 10 million downloads on her show and really an honor to talk to. One of the people that started out Pluralsight is podcasting ginger Campbell. Pleasure to have you on the show. You are the host of the brain science podcast, which is a huge neuroscience podcast, and I'm really excited to have you on. We've actually been talking about this for awhile and do you want to introduce the podcast a little bit? Yeah, thanks. First I want to mention that the name of the podcast is. Brain science podcast is not part of the name anymore. Just in case you happen to be searching in your podcasting app. I think I took the name, I think I took podcasts I will name about five years ago. Actually, I don't remember exactly when I did it. I decided that putting podcasts in your title had become sort of redundant. Back when I started in 2006 it was really common for podcasts to be part of the title, but you know, now it's not so much. So anyway, just plain old brain science, neuroscience for everyone. Now you're making me rethink the name of my podcast. And so basically the idea of the show is to explore how recent discoveries in neuroscience are helping unravel the mystery of how our brains make us human. And my tagline is. The show for everyone who has a brain, because I want to communicate. The show doesn't require a scientific background. However, the listeners are very diverse, ranging from people who haven't gone to college. I've got a house painter and a plumber, and then actual neuroscientists, so that makes for a challenge when I'm creating my show. Interesting. And you said you started back way back in 2006 I think that's pretty much when a podcasting started. How was that? Well, podcasting officially started in 2004 and then it appeared in iTunes in the summer of 2005 which is when many of us early people became aware of it because before that you had to be able to. Code your own RSS feed and stuff like that. So I wasn't that much of a pioneer. And then it took me about a year to figure out what I wanted to make my show about. So, so I think I started about two years in which now that I'm on my 14th year, I guess, represents almost a pioneer. Yeah. I think for those looking back nowadays, they would, they would see very much as to see very little of a distinction. It's like, Oh, when did you, you know, when did you come to America? 1492 or 1512 or something. Like I said that at some point it's kind of like, ah, it's kind of, you know, splitting hairs, but so why did you choose neuroscience. Well because it just happened to be what I was reading at the time that I decided to start a show. I didn't want to show about my job, which I'm a physician, so I wanted to show that was about what I was just interested in, and at the time, neuroscience hadn't been quite become quite so popular, but I would be listening to people say things that weren't quite right because mainstream media. Coverage of science and neuroscience is, you know, pretty bad, and I wanted to share the things I was reading. I figured lots of people weren't going to read the books. I wanted to share the stuff I was learning with others. That was really my motivation and I wanted to make a show that was accurate, that told people what the science really shows. That was my, that was my driver. So you're working as a physician, but not necessarily in the field of neuroscience. It was just kind of an interest of yours then, right? Yeah. I actually came through it through philosophy of mind. I was reading Western philosophy for the first time in my life. I had been through Eastern philosophy, which is actually very mind oriented, but not exactly science oriented. And then I decided to explore Western philosophy. I discovered there's this whole subset of philosophy called philosophy of mind, and that's when I discovered that neuroscience had come a long way since I had last. Got it. Which was like right before I started medical school in 1980 that was in the days of huge glass electrodes and, and so I got really fascinated with neuroscience because like I said, it, it, it's, it helps us understand who we are. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, but that's still pretty interesting. I mean, there was a, to keep something up for 15 years or to, to maintain, you know, as somewhat expensive habits and a very, very time consuming habit of podcasting, you know, really is, is more than just a passing interest. I would have to argue that there was something bigger driving you, like how you were thinking, why you were thinking and the science. So maybe what were your favorites. Episodes or favorite subjects like this philosophy of mine. Specific topics, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Early on, I was really interested in the question of consciousness. That would be a major theme that still carries through on the show. My favorite early episode was one about exercise and the brain. With John Rady, unfortunately, as a horrible sound quality, but, but that was my favorite early episode because that was something people could use. He explained why exercising is good for your brain, and since the people who tend to listen to my show oftentimes care about their brain health, that one was one that had a personal impact for people. So it stands out out for me. Really? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then of course, learning about brain plasticity. That was something that was new at the beginning of the show. Now it's kind of old hat everybody knows about brain plasticity, but the subject that really, the subject that I'm really fascinated by right now actually has to do with the intrinsic activity of the brain. And this actually might be relevant to your listeners who are interested in neural implants, because I've been reading a couple of books about the idea of the intrinsic activity of the brain. One is called the brain from the inside out by URI Misaki, which is, he's the guy who's very well known as a pioneer in brain rhythms. And I have another one. I can't think of the name of it right the second, I think it's called the spontaneous brain, but they're both on the same idea that we need to start looking at the brain from the inside out. It's intrinsic activity is really a key feature, and the reason why I think this might be relevant to people interested in neural implants is that I think it may explain how something like say the cochlear implant. Is why it's so successful. I don't know if you're aware of this, but when the cochlear implant was first invented, people didn't really think it would work because the amount of information in the signal is very poor relative to normal hearing. And what they found was that people learned to make sense out of what they were hearing from the cochlear implant. You start out making sense, but eventually their brain just kind of decoded it. And so. Bruce hockey's idea is that the brain is going along, making signals, making it, throwing signals out, throwing signals out. And then when we're lippy as a part of life, we associate through the timing of brain rhythms. A spontaneous signal was something else in the world, and we make a match. So if that's really true, then that means our brain can be more flexible for, you know, learning, you know, new ways to interact with the world. For example, a brain machine interface. You know, we could learn to, to generate a different brain pattern, to do a thing, say with the computer. And that seems to be what people are actually experiencing, right? When they're trying to create these interfaces. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. Boost hockey has a boost hockey, uh, array the Tetro and everything like this, and, and some of my colleagues have worked with them, but yeah, it's, it's definitely, you know, the amount of plasticity that's in the brain. And you, you might remember this actually, you might've been around like when this was, people were saying like, Oh, there's no, you know, change in the brain. There's no neurons being created after, after childhood. Right. And essentially that everything's kind of set in stone, but you know, that that basically negates all of learning. And, you know, people like kind of, kind of like with the cochlear implant, like, you know, people can learn crazy, crazy stuff like Morse code. I mean, people learn beeps and boops, you know, and, and translate that into, you know, speech almost. And, and like, I think I heard, I was hearing about like, people that are really good at Morse code, like they almost here. Writing or speech in that, you know? So yeah, it's crazy stuff. All this, all this about plasticity and how dynamic the brain actually is. And this other guy that I'm reading, and I'm, I can't pronounce his name, so I'm love to say it, but the name of his book is the spontaneous brain. He actually argues that maybe we should even do away with the idea of the mind and just talk about the world brain problem. That is, how does the brain. Interact with the world. And in, in his book, he, he talks about the empirical evidence. It's very similar to be sockies because they both talk about the evidence that faster rhythms are nested into slower rhythms. And also the fact that when you look at the brain's response to an external signal, it's. Influenced by whatever the brain is already doing. They're not additive. There's an interaction. So I think that idea, the idea of just doing away with the idea of the mind, he calls it a Copernican revolution because he's saying instead of having this, you know, like sort of mind centered view of the world, which gives us this, this, you know, mind body problem, which we can't seem to solve that. If we just shift our viewpoint from. To the interaction between the brain and the world. We can just do away with the whole mind body problem. It's just kind of an interesting thought. Yeah, definitely. I think, I think there definitely is a fallacy that lies there. But I want to talk about the podcast. So, you know, you have written here that you've passed 10 million downloads and are very influential. You've been ranked number one on iTunes and Libsyn, which is a big, you know, podcast, hosting a site. They're also have you as one of the proud, you know, like, Hey, look, who goes with us? You know, look who we have, you know, is one of our customers. But what has been your experience with hosting? One of the biggest. Well, unfortunately, science podcasts are not, you know, the most popular in terms of big numbers. I mean, my numbers are very good for science, but because of the way advertising works, you need really big numbers to, to make money. To give you an example, I don't know if you've heard of the person who does grammar girl. She's. Made a business out of her podcast, a Minoan Fogarty. She actually started as a science podcast and back in 2007 she told me she gave up science podcasting cause it was too much work. And, and that really is a reality. I mean, if you're going to, I know you would like to encourage more people to do science podcasts and so would I. But I think that it is important to be realistic about the work. Load involved. You know, if you make a fan cast about your favorite TV show and you just get together with your buddies and talk about it, you know, every week it's not, I mean, it's time consuming, but it's not the same kind of work as trying to create accurate science content. I think it's a level of challenge that the people that the average podcast or doesn't appreciate. That's funny that there's more money in grammar than there is in science. Yeah. Well, everybody needs grammar, and a lot of people don't think they need science. Yeah. No, it's very helpful actually. So what has been some of your, I don't know, responses or what? What kind of feedback have you gotten over? Geez, almost a decade and a half that you've been doing this, huh? Well, the two most surprising things. One is feedback from students. I never. Expected the feedback from students. I thought of my show as being a show that would be sort of the NPR adult kind of person who, who was curious about about neuroscience, but I have students of all ages, and I actually have one listener. Who is now in his first year of residency, who's been listening to the show as a psychiatry resident who's been listening to the shows for eight years since he was in high school. So that's pretty amazing. And I've had people write to me and say, I'm going to go into neuroscience because of listening to the show, so that. That was a total surprise. I did not expect that. And the other surprising thing is when people with with neurological or mental health challenges write to me and tell me that. That might show helps them to cope with their challenges. I had a listener once who said he was listening to the show with his father who was dying from Alzheimer's, and I recently actually had a patient, sorry, excuse me, habit, a listener, right? Saying that he had recently been diagnosed with early onset dementia, and he was still listening to the show that he felt that was helpful to him. So. It's as a physician, I have to say that the most amazing thing is realizing the show has impacted so many people, so many more people than I'll ever reach as a physician. Yeah, that's pretty amazing stuff. I mean, and that's something I, I, you know, talk about on my show as well. Like, you know, a good scientific paper might get, you know, a hundred views and like five citations or something like this. And that's, you know, you can be proud of that. But with our shows, you can get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of downloads and that reach, although maybe not as deep and, and like, you know, in the specific subset it breaches, it goes much further. And I think that really. Gives your research and your message much more value as well. Yeah. I don't have any trouble getting guests. Uh, even though I do focus on scientists who write books, I occasionally interview people who are involved in basic science, especially people that are, uh, extremely good at communicating like Seth grant, for example. But the reason that I focus on books is that it gives my listeners a place to go if they want to learn more. The average person doesn't have access to the literature. You know, they don't have access to an academic library. All these, lots of these papers are still behind paywalls. But by talking to somebody who's taken the time to put a bunch of research together in a book, if a person you know, wants to go to the next level, their first choice is just go and read the book and people actually do that. So authors are very happy to come on my show cause they, most of them really do understand that. Yeah. They, they want as much, you know, public publicity as I can get. Cause it really can be hard to sometimes break above the noise. And yeah. I mean there is something special about like having somebody who's worked in the field and you know, potentially. Simplify things and, and, you know, get it from behind the paywall because that's actually, that's the reason I started this show as well, was, you know, trying to get to the research. I was outside of the paywall at the time, but I wanted to learn what everybody was doing and who the big people in the field were. So, uh, I figured I might as well help other people with this as well. So, yeah. That, that's really interesting. You, you're very much into books. You have a different, you have another podcast about books actually as well, right? Yeah, so it's called, it's called books and ideas. It has a pretty small audience because it's not niche enough. You know, in podcasting, it seems to be an advantage to be, to have a niche. And even though books and ideas clearly describes what the show really is, it, it's not quite, I mean, it's really the place I put everything that doesn't fit. So I might talk to a science fiction writer, or I might talk to a scientist. I might talk to, I, I've interviewed. Astronomers physicists, a woman who's written video game novels. So I mean, it's very, very, very diverse, which I enjoy, but makes finding its audience difficult. So it's truly my passion project. Yeah, for sure. That's a, that's interesting. So what do you think, I mean, do you think, uh, the world would be better if there was more podcasts if more people were doing this kind of stuff, or would it be crowded or what's, what's your kind of opinion on science communication? We definitely need more good science podcasts. I mean, many years ago, I actually tried to start a website. It was called, this was back in 2008 I started a website called science pod-casters dot org and I tried to recruit Joe's to come and basically share their. Show notes all in one place so people may be, would find them. And I closed it down in 2010 because the national science foundation started their site, which I think is called. Science three 60 I'm not sure. Anyway, it's a very good clearinghouse for good science podcasts, and there was a way I could compete with that, but I do think that if you're going to do a science podcast, you really do need to think about what is the audience you actually want to reach. If you want your show to be, you know, the inside baseball, you know, really highly technical. Fine, but realize your chances of getting an audience is going to be, you know. You could, it's okay to have a small audience, but you need to know that that's what's going to happen if you want. If your passion is you want people outside your field to understand what your field is about, I think that's really, really valuable, especially these days because science journalism, you know, the newspapers aren't paying for science journalists, the television networks. Obviously aren't paying for good science journalists, so there's a huge need for somebody to go out there and communicate to people what science is really about. To give you an example of another great Lipson podcast that I'm promoting right now, for obvious reasons, is this weekend virology. I mean, if you want to hear a great show, that's really the science of coronavirus. This week in virology, which is a Lipson show and Vincent ranch and Ella used to be a part of my science podcast or.org organization. This week in virology launched in 2008 so it's not a, you know, Hey, let's jump on the bandwagon. You know, I had to get that in there cause I really think this is an important show for people to listen to. I just think that, I think it's really valuable. We need, I'd like to see some good physics shows that, you know, tried to explain things to regular people like me. You know, I guess maybe Sean Carroll does a little on his, but he, his show is, I don't think it's. It's really focused on physics, even though he's a physicist. Yeah, but if you're going to do it, I would the run recommendation if I had anything to do different, I don't know if you're planning to ask me that question. If I was going to do something different, I would want to have a cohost. I mean, you know someone to carry the load so that you know it's not all on you. If you can find a cohost, you'll probably have a better chance of, of lasting and not pod fading. And plus listeners enjoy, you know, hearing the relationship between the cohost. And that's something that, that, that I, I've never had the opportunity to do. Yeah, definitely. I agree. Like I've, I've had, I've also co-hosted some, some other podcasts, you know, with some colleagues, and that does get go much better because you get a different perspective. I mean, obviously, you know, the questions that you ask, you know your way of thinking, but then the cohost might ask a question and that's just like, Oh wow. That is actually very interesting. I'm very curious what the answer is. I think that's a very good piece of advice. But beware of the excess chitter chatter. I can't tell you how many podcasts I have turned off at the beginning because everybody's talking about. You know, it doesn't matter what TV show they watched or whatever. Most of us can't pull that off. I mean, if you're like a celebrity, maybe somebody wants to know what you did last night, but otherwise they probably don't and they're probably going to turn off your show before you even get to your interview. If you make it a habit. Of doing too much goofing around at the beginning. And that's, that's just my opinion. But I've heard other podcast listeners say the same thing when talking about what shows they turn off. Most of us aren't as funny as we think we are and know, get to the point. For sure. I completely agree. It has to be substantive. So, okay, so what's, what's your plans with the future of brain science and what kind of goals are you hoping to accomplish with it? Well, you know, this year it's hard to know what's going to happen. I was really hoping to take the show to another level this year. I actually experimented with going back to twice a month, which I, um, did the first two years of the show. But I've decided to go back to once a month, which has worked well for over 10 years. I'm trying, I was planning to release the second edition of my book. Are you sure? The unconscious. Origins of certainty next week, but that's been held up just in the layout. Um, stage, just because of uncertainties with, with the pen dynamic, and I'm not sure how people are going to get books. Amazon's society books are very low priority. If you order a book right now from Amazon, it'll come whenever. So it's probably not a re the best possible time to be releasing a book. And I really want to write that book. Are you sure is really just based on several older episodes of the show. And what I really want to do is to write a truly original book because I mean, I got almost 15 years worth of material. I got lots of material. I want to write an original book, mainly because let's face it, there's still a lot of people who don't listen to podcasts. And. The reality is books are still, you know, the gold standard. So I want to write a really good, but it's called, it's going to be called why neuroscience matters, because really my, my whole premise is that understanding how neuroscience works should be a basic scientific literacy skill for the 21st century. For example, if you understand what cognitive dissonance is. Politics make a lot more sense, but at any rate, so that's really my focus for this year is to get those books out. And then I w I hope they will help grow the show, but the main thing is to reach new people. Okay. Yeah. Just kind of educate the world on, on everything that's going on, how we think, why we think, I think that's a really good idea. But I would, I would argue that, you know, books are, you know, obviously they reach different type of peer person than, than podcasting. And maybe more, maybe less, I don't know. But I would say that even better. Methods of teaching. And a big part of that is actually video is, you know, lot more people. For example, watch YouTube, then read books. Yeah. And I'm not going to argue with that. I don't see myself as a video person. If somebody came to me and said, Hey, do you want to be part of a video project? I'd say, cool, but I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna. Take that on as a solo project. Audio podcasting is enough of a challenge as a solo project. I appreciate the fact that that a lot of people still, you know, now learn by video. I happened to be a person who learns by reading and believe that there are still those of us out there. We learn by reading and I'm willing to accept the fact that. Someone else may be reaching those video people. Yeah. And if somebody wants to come to me and say, Hey, here's your great book. How can we put parts of it into a video? You know, I'll be, I'll be up for that too, but I know what my strength is. Yeah. I mean, I got into podcasting because I realized almost immediately that it was just something that, that, um, really excited me and I felt like I was good at it. Explaining science is a lot more like my day job in which I explained medicine to my patients. So it kind of, you know, trying to translate things into English is something that sort of comes naturally, or at least I've been doing it so long. It feels natural. Yeah, definitely. Kind of, I mean, essentially you're translating from Latin into English. Well, it's not quite that bad, but close enough. Yeah. I did want to talk about one other thing that was related to the book, and that was, I had. I've had half a listener who's been just sort of hounding me about making an audio version of, are you sure? Which I'm not planning to do, partly because of expense and partly because of the content is already available mostly in audio. Format, but when I do my big book project, I definitely do consider making an audio version of it to be essential for the exact reason that you just mentioned that the format of audio is so good for reaching people. And the thing I love about audio versus video is that a person can be. They can be driving their car. They have been going for a walk. They can be cleaning their house. They can, I don't know how you would mow the lawn because I don't think you'd be able to hear it, but you can do a lot of stuff while you're listening to audio as opposed to, you know, video, which if you're actually really paying attention, you know, you kind of have to. Look at it. So that's why I'm comfortable with not doing video, although I appreciate the fact that, that it's, it's a very powerful tool. I mean, I'm the person who, when I go to the website, I don't watch the videos. I say I look for the, where did they put the written instructions? In fact, I have a coach who has all these videos and she's learned that she's just going to send me the PDFs because I don't want to watch the video. So it may be a generational thing, but. You know, I'm a baby boomer. There's plenty of people in my boom's still left. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think also like audio is kind of the sweet spot where it's easily accessible and you also, like you said, you can do it while doing other things, driving, transporting, you know, basically all the stuff that I've stopped doing. So actually I've had my podcast kind of pile up because I've stopped commuting to work and I stopped, you know, doing all this stuff that where I, where I used to listen to podcasts. It's been a, it's been pretty bad. I'm going to have quite a backlog once I get back to everything. Right. And that's, you know, that's why it's hard to know what's going to happen. Rob Walch from, from Lipson, he, he's been talking on the feed about how the last slump in, in podcast advertising happened in 2008 with the, with the financial crisis in 2008 and I remember that because I had one. Really great advertising campaign with the Navy, and then the rates just went through the bottom. I mean, they just, they went way down. So people, podcasts, which you rely on, on advertising, are really going to be, you know, hurting in the next, you know, foreseeable future. And then the people who are making their living off of production, you know, audio editing and things like that are probably also gonna, you know, struggle a little for me. My show's established and I can survive on a plateau for a while, but if I was somebody just starting out, I'm not saying you shouldn't start now. But this might be a good time to be in the planning phases, right. And, and really get everything aligned up. Maybe if, I think if I was starting a new show at this point, what I might consider doing is getting a large number of interviews in the can, right. And then launching in the fall, maybe when people are hopefully going to be back on a more regular schedule and then you won't have that time pressure of trying to put out a show every week. So we can make the best of it. Yeah, definitely. Don't have this be dead time. Have it be useful, actually. Yeah. So what is, what are some, what is some advice that you have for people in the neuroscience field? Neurotechnology in general, like through your experience in the field and, and having talked to so many people. Well, I always, I always ask my guests to give advice to students because I have so many student listeners, and one of the things that, that many of my guests say, which I think applies to us whether or not we're students or not, is to choose something that, that you're really passionate about. In other words, if you were going to do a podcast. Unless you are intentionally planning a very short run series that's gonna like say go 12 episodes in and, but if you want to do it for a prolonged period of time, you've got to pick something that you're really passionate about. I picked neuroscience because I felt like I wasn't going to run out of material, which has certainly proven to be true every time. I think that I've kind of gotten. You know, into a stuck point. I turn around and I've got a bunch of new books in my mailbox and I'm like, and I get enthused again. So if the subject doesn't light you up, you're not going to last. I think the, the old writing advice, you know, to re, you know, which is write what you know, probably applies to podcasting too. Yeah, definitely. I would completely agree. I mean, you know, even even in the field of, even in the sub field of neural implants, you know, especially the guests that I have a little bit more familiarity with, it's much easier for me versus something like, you know, computational stuff or you know, programming or whatever, and they're just like, Oh shoot, this is a bit outside of what I know and what I can intelligently speak about. But also, I guess not. What I'm interested in. I am interested in it, but maybe not to the extent to the other stuff. So I completely agree, and I think you've shown this very well. It's, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, you know? And then when you're, when you're planning your interviews, I think they're, the most obvious rule is read ahead of time. You know, you know, if you listen to interviews in the mainstream media, you can lots of times tell that they haven't read anything by the person that they're interviewing, right? So even if you're interviewing somebody who's only who's written a paper or whatever, you want to have read their work. And then when you're thinking about your interview, I recommend making your questions. Ask yourself, well, what is the one thing about this person's work that I want my listeners to understand? And then gear all your questions to that. And most scientists don't mind if you say to them, can you back up for a minute and explain what you meant by XYZ? If you're making a show for nonspecialists, they don't have to understand everything, but they need to be able to understand the big picture and they don't like being talked down to. I mean, the show I do basically goes against all the, all the dogma about how to do science. Broadcasting. You know, if you look at mainstream media, everything is so watered down. There's this assumption that people won't understand it or that you need a bunch of special effects, which of course obviously don't have and neither one. I think neither one of those things are true, but you do have to be able to make it clear. Why should I, the guy off the street care about this? I mean, you're doing a show about neural implants. I think probably, you know that. That's not as hard as it might be for some other show. I always like to joke that it's a lot easier to make a podcast about neuroscience because everybody does have a brain, and neuroscience really does affect us as individuals, whereas like most of us are not affected by quantum mechanics, so it doesn't matter whether we understand it or not. Yeah, I mean, I know we are affected by quantum mechanics on some level, but you know what I mean? We're not making day to day decisions based on her understanding of quantum mechanics. Yeah, exactly. Kind of make it relevant. Bring it, bring it all home. Right. And I'm not mean telling them what to think. I am also a big believer in trusting that the science can speak for itself. You know, decide what the key idea is. Help your guest to share that key idea. And then you have to trust your listeners. Yeah, for sure. This is really interesting stuff. I love it. Um, you know, especially coming from, you know, like I said, one of the biggest science podcasters, you know, of our time and, and somebody who's been doing it all, I'll say pretty much from the beginning. Yeah. There's a couple of science podcasts out there. They've been around longer than mine, but not many. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'd have a hard time believing it honestly. Like, unless it was like radio program before, I was just like, Oh, we might as well do podcasting in addition to this, like science Friday. That's kinda what I'm thinking. Right. I don't care that I don't count those because those are repurposed radio shows. So you're right. One of the oldest ones is probably a repurposed radio show, but there is a show called the astronomy cast, which is Pam Hamlin. Gay's done over 300 episodes of that show. I think she launched in three 2005 while she's in the podcasting hall of fame, the only science podcast in the podcasting hall of fame, like actual hall of fame. Well, it's called the Academy of podcasters, and now it's been bought out, so it's probably going to become the Hollywood podcasting hall of fame, but the people that are currently in it are true pioneers. Just Google Academy of podcasters hall of fame. She got a star on the Hollywood walk of fame. No. But yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of work creating a science podcast, but I think it's, it's, it's a great way to share pot. I think it's a great way to share science. It just, it's just a lot of work. You have to, the thing that will keep you going if you decide to do it, and I don't know if this is your experience, but for me, it's listener feedback. Every time I think I'm going to quit. I get an email from somebody who said, tells me, you know how it's made a difference to them. And, and that, that keeps me going. Yeah, definitely. Like the, the feedback is, is great. And the really, it's amazing kind of the connections that you create for others and then you create for yourself as well. But another thing for me too is because I can go to conferences and I have gone to conferences kind of helping out on the meta side of things with some things, I, I'm basically in the room of, you know, a few hundred people that, you know. Portion of them who know who I am and listen to the show and everything like that. So that's kind of an amazing thing because I have a, I have a travel podcast as well actually, and it's, it's bigger than the Nerland pop podcast, but you know, it's just diffuse, like it's all over the world. So I would never in the wild run into one of my listeners, but at one of the conferences, it really, it does happen and people are, you know, people like it, you know? And so that, that also kind of motivates me a little bit further, cause it's just like, it's not just numbers on a screen, it's actual. People and it's actual, you know, it's, it's has real life consequences I guess. So, Dr. Campbell, this has been excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to mention? Yeah. And, and I have a free newsletter on my website, so if somebody says, well, I'd like to know when that book is really happening. Who's got a brain science podcast.com and sign up for the newsletter. You get. Show notes automatically and know when the book is finally a reality. Excellent. I'm looking forward to it and especially looking forward to the audience guys. Hopefully you enjoyed that. Yeah, it was interesting. Afterwards we talked about, you know, how hard it is to make money podcasting and how little it is, and you know, she's like, Oh, you can put some of your episodes behind a pay wall, or, you know, do a Patrion and have people donate to you. But with how niche this show is, I don't think I'd be making too much. And I don't think, I don't want to do that to you guys. Like, and only earn 20 bucks a month, you know, sell out my soul for 20 bucks a month, or you know, 30 or whatever. I might end up earning from that. But I do this for the love of the topic and the. The people that are in it and just reaching out and everything like this. I think it's really good, but I mean, please do remember that I do offer other services, and so if you're interested in either advertising on a podcast or making your own podcast, or filming a promotional video for example, or a conference, or you know, a panel or whatever, I'm doing three D animations, then I'm available for this as well. The email is. Latin@neuralimplant.media and so yeah, I can do all your media needs. Even things like making some figures in, in some journal articles. I've seen some really, really ugly figures, really ugly photos, and I can make that a little bit better. Just that much better. To, to make it more attractive. And you know, it's a small thing, but it's a is, it's a very real thing. And I've seen people close and I've seen people just stop reading. If they saw like an especially hideous graphic, then yeah, let me know. Let me know and I'll see if I can help you out. Hope you enjoyed the show and were able to learn something new, bringing together different fields in novel ways. Until next time on the neural implant podcast.

For All Abilities – The Podcast Interview with Allie Mason: A Diagnosis of Autism While in Graduate School    In this episode, I interview Allie Mason. We discuss the challenge of her diagnosis of autism while she was working on a graduate degree. We also talk about how she has navigated school and work with the diagnosis. To connect with Allie,  please follow her on LinkedIn (Allie Mason), on Instagram at whensouthmetnorth and on Facebook at Where Allie Writes.  Please subscribe to For All Abilities – The Podcast! Please follow me on Instagram @forallabilities, LinkedIn (Betsy Furler) and on Facebook (For All Abilities). Go to our website www.forallabilities.com for information on our software that enables employers to support their employees with ADHD, Dyslexia, Learning Differences and Autism. Thanks for listening!  Betsy     Thanks for listening to For All Abilities today!    Share the podcast with your friends, they’ll thank you for it!   Get our newsletter and stay up to date! The newsletter link is on our website www.forallabilities.com   Follow me   Twitter: @betsyfurler   Instagram: @forallabilities   Facebook: @forallabilites   LinkedIn: @BetsyFurler   Website: www.forallabilities.com     Full Transcript from Otter.ai    Betsy Furler  0:03   Hi, everybody, welcome back to for all abilities, the podcast. I am so excited to be here to bring another guest for you to learn about what she's doing in the world. This podcast is all about showing the world the amazing things that people who are near neuro diverse are doing, and why our differences are so important to all of our strengths and our world community. So please welcome Allie Mason. Hey, Allie, thank you for being on the by.   Allie Mason  0:38   No problem. I'm really happy to be here.   Betsy Furler  0:40   Yeah, so why don't you introduce yourself to my my listeners.   Allie Mason  0:47   So yeah, I'm Ali. I'm from England as you'll be able to tell from the accent, and I was recently within the last couple of months diagnosed as autistic whilst I'm studying for a postgraduate To great university.   Betsy Furler  1:02   That's amazing. It's so incredible how many people are now being diagnosed as adults, I think it really points to the fact that we're probably missing a lot of kids who we could be giving more support to when they were younger. So, yeah, so I'd love to hear about what you were like as a little girl.   Allie Mason  1:23   So, I would say that I was academically gifted, but socially challenged as a child.   And I think that's really common for a lot of people who are either diagnosed as autistic as a child or who grow up and end up diagnosed as adults because we have certain subjects or interests that we can really focus on and excel in, and then it will come to talking to the people around you making friends and that kind of stuff. And that's why things get difficult for us.   Betsy Furler  1:58   What were some of your friends favorite things to do when you were a little girl? Like what were your kind of high interest areas.   Allie Mason  2:07   I really, really loved to read. I can remember that the only time I would get in trouble at school is when I was caught reading behind my textbooks. Really? Yeah, it's a really cute but kind of sad way of getting in trouble at school. But yeah, I read so much. I was out of the we had a little school library in my in my primary school. So when I was there up to the age of 11, and I read through that by the time I was halfway through school, so then I was moved on to out of books and started reading books from the adult library in town. So reading was a huge, huge part of my childhood for me.   Betsy Furler  2:49   What kind of what genre do you like?   Allie Mason  2:52   At the time, I really loved fantasy, so I was reading a lot of things like Harry Potter and vampire Knight And anything that had an adventure and a hero or heroine in it, though they would be my go to books.   Betsy Furler  3:08   So what do you like as an adult? Are you still a reader?   Allie Mason  3:11   I'm an avid reader, I really love to read. I've got more into nonfiction as I've got older. So I really like to read about   people who've done amazing things in their lives and just get inspiration from that.   Betsy Furler  3:26   Oh, yeah, I love that too. I'm really I really love mysteries. And I love mysteries as a little girl and continue to love mysteries as an adult. But I've gotten also more and more into the nonfiction and I'm really fascinated by people and how people work in the world. And so yeah, I like I like that too. And so after So, I, you did well in school, and it sounds like you had no behavioral problems. You know, you were just reading so sounds like if that's what you're in trouble for. You probably were pretty well behaved. And did your friend Emily think did they have any concerns about you? Or did they just think you were quirky and, and more, you're cared more about books than you cared about friends?   Allie Mason  4:10   I would definitely say they just thought I was a bit quirky. It's really interesting, actually, because my mom has always worked as a special needs teaching assistant for most of her career. So she was surrounded by young people who had various additional needs all day long, and yet she'd come home and she didn't notice that in me, which, looking back with hindsight, I find really interesting. But they were definitely concerned that I didn't go out to play as much with the other children. And I'd say no, no, I'm gonna stay in my room. I'm gonna finish my book. So that they're grateful that I'm not as bad at that anymore.   Betsy Furler  4:51   Do you have siblings?   Allie Mason  4:53   Yeah, I have a younger brother. His name is Josh and he was always the sports athletic, popular guy at school people were always shocked when they found out we were related.   Betsy Furler  5:06   Oh, that's funny. Totally different personality is a   Allie Mason  5:10   complete opposite.   Betsy Furler  5:13   So after you finished in grade school in high school, did you go on to university?   Allie Mason  5:21   Yes. So I went straight off to college to university to study theology. And I think I heard in a different podcast that you did religion as well.   Betsy Furler  5:31   Yes, my, at my college we were not allowed to declare a minor but my minor would have been religion. I had enough. I had enough credits. I almost had enough credits actually to have a third major in religion. Yeah, I loved it. Those were some of my favorite classes.   Allie Mason  5:48   Absolutely. I loved the three years that I spent studying theology, so I specialized in studying Christianity whilst I was there and I just adored that and then Something that I'd really like to get more into again.   Betsy Furler  6:05   What was your goal for your degree? Were you planning to go on to seminary after that? Or did you or it or was it just your interest?   Allie Mason  6:16   At the time, it was just my interest. It was a case where I finished my college. So my a levels, and I had so many things that I could officiate. So I was really interested in English and history and languages, and I just kind of felt a bit overwhelmed. And I wanted to try something a bit different because I hadn't done Religious Studies at college. I missed it a bit from when I was younger, and I thought, well, I've got too many options. So I'll make it easy for myself and I'll just do this one and it totally paid off. Mm hmm.   Betsy Furler  6:54   So then, when you graduated, with that first degree, so is that Considered is that called a Bachelor's? And yes, yeah, glad. Okay. So it's like it has her. And where did you What did you do after that?   Allie Mason  7:08   So after I graduated, I made a really risky decision to go into teaching. And I say that was a risky decision because with the knowledge that I have now, I would not have made the same, made the same choice, but I went to be a religious studies teacher. So I was teaching for four months in an inner city school, and I come from the rural countryside in England, so I was not prepared for that change of environment. And I really loved working with the kids and I really loved helping them to learn new things, not just about religion, but about themselves as well. That being autistic. There were a lot of things that I struggled with that that didn't match up and that ultimately led me to leave   Betsy Furler  8:00   Oh, okay, interesting. But at the time you didn't you, you were not thinking you had autism at the time, correct?   Allie Mason  8:08   That's correct. Yeah.   Betsy Furler  8:10   Okay. So So what made you decide to go back and go to university? Again?   Allie Mason  8:17   I think I, after I struggled so much teaching and as you say, I didn't know I was autistic at the time, but I could recognize the the problems that I was having. And I thought, well, where in my life have I succeeded before where I didn't encounter these problems. And my thoughts immediately went to the university setting in academia, which is something I have always thankfully done while in and so I thought, well, rather than teach children, I can help them behind the scenes, so to speak, if I go into educational research, so that's the degree that I'm doing at the moment is Educational Research at the University of Oxford, huh?   Betsy Furler  9:00   That's, um, you know that I know here in the United States, it's changed the, the education environment is just rapidly changing because of COVID-19. And so it'll be interesting to see what happens in that field in the very near future. As you know, we have to kind of rethink the way our schools are set up. And so are you going to pursue that? Or are you going to pursue something different?   Allie Mason  9:27   I think I'm going to pursue something different. I think I've learned a lot from my time doing this master's degree and exploring research methods and things like that. And I want to take that and apply it more to writing because another thing that I did as a child, as well as read was write my own stories and my own poems, and that's something that stayed with me throughout my childhood up until now is I'm a big writer, and I think that those research skills are actually really, really helpful when it comes to crafting a good piece of writing.   Betsy Furler  10:06   Right, right. So right now I had read on your LinkedIn and we talked a little bit about it earlier that you're in a screenwriting program. So tell us a little bit about applying for that and what you're doing with that.   Allie Mason  10:21   Yeah, so one of the things that I've really focused on during the lockdown is my writing but also pursuing opportunities to publicize my writing that I necessarily hadn't done before then, and I came across this chance to be part of a screenwriting program. It's a 10 week course with a playwright dawn King. And she leads us in our sessions and she gives us guidance and advice, and we work on our own manual manuscripts as well. And I have to just submit an idea that had for a play, which I did. My idea is centered around an autistic protagonist, funnily enough.   Betsy Furler  11:10   But yeah, I'm excited   Allie Mason  11:11   to see where that goes.   Betsy Furler  11:13   Yeah, that's so exciting. I am really passionate about the accurate just portrayal of all sorts of differences and disabilities and film. And so when I saw that I was like, Oh, that's so cool. I mean, what, what better person for it to come from than someone who actually is autistic, too? Yeah. Write something that is an accurate and respectful portrayal and, and does show the world and the strengths, the strengths and the differences and the struggles and the triumphs. So that's really exciting. I'm so excited for you getting to do that.   Allie Mason  11:55   Thank you. I think you're absolutely right. One of the things that I've found when I've been Exploring autistic representation is that so many of the stories that are written about us are written by people who aren't autistic. And as much as I appreciate that, many of these authors will have done a lot of research before producing these stories, as you say, Who better for it to come from than those of us who are autistic and who think this way and have to live with this experience every single day?   Betsy Furler  12:31   Right? Right. And it's very interesting to me. Like you and some of my previous guests have had so much insight into themselves and and how they feel and move through the world. And how I mean, I think that probably led to your diagnosis as an adult, it was your ability to see insight, you know, what's going on inside yourself, which so many people don't have like, that's really a remarkable skill. And to have that ability and then also to be able to write and get that information out there. I think that's a very, very unique and special skill strength that you have. So I can't wait to hear I can I can't wait to keep in touch and hear what, what that all leads to   Allie Mason  13:19   an absolutely.   Betsy Furler  13:21   So I'm sure people are going to want to connect with you How is the best way for them to do that?   Allie Mason  13:28   So I've recently set up my own Facebook page so you can find me, I'm called where Ali writes on Facebook, and that's where I'm posting links to all of my articles that I'm writing at the moment and I'll post a link to this podcast once it goes up. And I'm also on Instagram and my handle is when South met north.   Betsy Furler  13:54   Okay, so where Ali writes and then when South met North Perfect. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I know people are gonna want to find out more about you. And I am really looking forward to following your writing career. I think that it sounds like you, you were able to move in the direction of your strengths. And even though your graduate degree is not exactly what you're doing in your life, it sounds like it was very, very helpful and, and probably also gave you that time in an environment where you felt comfortable in order to really figure out what the next step should be.   Allie Mason  14:37   Yeah, that is so right. I think that even though I'm not necessarily subject wise, following where I am with my degree at the moment, it's been such a formative experience for me. I've met so many incredible people. And I've also received such great support from the department I'm in at the university which has really given me the confidence to speak out about my support needs and not to be ashamed of them.   Betsy Furler  15:03   Yes. Oh, absolutely. I'm so glad you brought that up. Because that is something else I'm so passionate about is that people deserve the you know, whether you call them accommodations or support or both whether someone's diagnosed or not diagnosed with anything. we all we all work better, we're more productive, more efficient, and the world moves more smoothly if we get the support that we need it need. So we're really glad to hear that your university has provided that and also that you've been able to, to, you'll be able to take that out into the workplace if you if you do end up working for somebody else at some point.   Allie Mason  15:46   Exactly. Yeah. I just feel really fortunate because as I said, I was only diagnosed recently so I was diagnosed two months ago. I was going through this experience whilst I was at university, and nevertheless from the beginning explained what my difficulties were and why I thought that they were that way. And I've just had so much support. And I think that's what I want to give back to our community is not to be afraid to speak up and to explore. If you are maybe neurodivergent. And there may be something out there that can help you.   Betsy Furler  16:19   Yes, yes. Because it's not a it's not a weakness. It's a it's a difference a difference. And I think we're all stronger when we recognize our differences. Absolutely. Well, it has been a pleasure talking to you today and I will in my show notes. I will put a link to your Facebook group. We're alley right. And then your Instagram when? When South Tell me tell me Instagram again. Yeah. When South north south oil, yes, just a little reference to the fact but I'm from the north of England, but I'm currently living in the south and exploring my opportunities there. Awesome. So I'll put a link both to the Facebook page and to your Instagram so people can connect with you. So yes, thank you and listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in today. And please rate reviews, subscribe to the podcast on whatever podcast platform you are listening on. And please share this podcast with your friends. I really want the world to realize what wonderful people we have out there who may think or work differently than the imaginary norm, but who is who are just bringing so much good to our world. So thanks for listening and I will talk to you all soon.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Religion has a lot to say about modesty - from clothing to behavior to even thoughts. Much of it is misunderstood from the outside perspective. The concept central to the idea of "modesty" is one of boundaries. In tech, we also have to set boundaries: from who has access to certain types of data to what "work hours" mean to which deliverables are in or out of scope to the tasks are considered part of our regular job.  In this episode, we'll hear from an entirely new set of voices: Alex Navarro, Faria Akram, and Yum Darling - who will explore the nature of those limitations and how our religious/moral/ethical POV can inform our tech life - and vice versa. Listen or read the transcript below. Leon (00:32):welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We're not here to preach or teach you our religion. We're here to explore ways we make our careers it professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious.Alex (00:53):Religion has a lot to say about modesty from clothing to behavior to even thoughts. Much of it is misunderstood from the outside perspective. The concept central to the idea of modesty is one of boundaries. In tech, we also have to set boundaries; from who has access to certain types of data, to what work hours mean, to which deliverables are in or out of scope to the tasks are considered part of our regular job. In this episode we'll explore the nature of those limitations and how our religious, moral, ethical point of view can inform our tech life and vice versa. I'm Alex Navarro and the other voices you're going to hear on this episode are my guests. Faria Akram.Faria (01:38):Hi,Alex (01:39):and Yum Darling.Yum (01:40):Hello.Alex (01:41):Thank you ladies.Alex (01:43):All right. So if you are new to the podcast, we start each episode with a moment for everyone to be able to introduce themselves, have a shameless plug, or basically engage with you in some other form. Uh, so Faria why don't you go first?Faria (01:57):Hi, I'm Faria. I'm a mental health advocate, storyteller, dancer, and cohost of a podcast called vulnerable views. You can keep up with what I'm doing in all those areas on my instagram @followingfaria and my website followingfaria.com in terms of religion, I was raised as a Muslim and still identify as such.Alex (02:15):and Yum.Yum (02:16):Okay. Uh, my name is Yum Darling. I am a community manager by day and by night, which is very long. I am a mom to two children. Um, which is why I'm hiding today at my parents' house so that you don't have to hear it. My dog, my cats, my children, and my husband yelled at me all at the same time. I don't really do as much on social media, so don't bother following me. I was born in Israel. So culturally I'm Jewish and I have gone to Jewish schools pretty much my entire life. So that is where the bulk of my, um, religious education is. But, um, spiritually and religiously, you know, I just like learning about religions. So I have a little bit of Buddhist knowledge, which isn't really religion if you're but whatever. And Judaism paganism. So ask why I will be happy to, you know, answer your questions.Alex (03:06):And just to round out today's podcast, my name is Alex Nevaro. Again, I am the founder of a creative agency called running their production house. You can find us on Instagram at that same handle. You can also find us on our website, which is that same name or any of your production house.com. And I was actually raised as a Catholic by a Catholic mother and a father who was a Jehovah's witness at the time. I didn't stay that way. We'll probably get into that later on in podcasts, but now I identify as a nondenominational Christian. So if you were not able to keep up with those amazingly, uh, short introductions, relax. It's okay. We're going to have everything posted in the show notes for you so you can just sit back and enjoy the conversation and let the amazing ideas flow over you. So, moving on to our first topic of discussion, when you hear the word modesty, what ideas or reactions does that conjure up for you in a religious context?Faria (04:08):So when I heard the word modesty, one thing that comes to mind in a religious context is a story of the prophet Muhammad. Peace be upon him. Um, and to those who know the story better than I do, I might mess up some details, I apologize. Uh, but there's a story that he was traveling with another man and they saw a woman who was quote unquote immodestly dressed in some sort of way, right? Um, but the prophet, instead of telling the woman, you know, Oh, you shouldn't be wearing that, or you need to change or whatever. Um, because his friend was just staring at the woman, he, I think took his hand and like moved his friend's face or covered his eyes, um, or averted his gaze in some sort of way. And that's always struck me as really powerful. Cause I think a lot of times when I hear the word modesty, even absent from religion, it's talked a lot about women and what they should or should not be doing. Um, so that story when I heard it as a kid always really, uh, struck a chord with me because it just reminded me that it's modesty is so much more than clothing, right? Which I think we'll talk about as well, but it's also on men to be modest and to do their part on all people.Yum (05:16):It's pretty much the same in Judaism. Um, modesty is, uh, how, how did an old friend put it? Uh, it's about women being a team player. And the whole, the whole interaction between men and women and modesty is that modesty equals privacy. Snoot or modesty and Hebrew is about how much you respect herself and how private you would like to be. So it really is the woman, the woman's decision. Now, of course, there are guidelines, if you will, if you would like to, how you could, you could dress modestly. Um, and everyone will have a different opinion on that. I'm sure we'll get into that later. But um, yes, pretty much, pretty much the same story there as Faria. You know, we, we tell our our men, if you don't want to pray in front of this woman who is distracting you, um, go somewhere else.Alex (06:10):Well, it's, it's interesting that when we hear the word modesty, it seems like the first thing that comes to mind is, is how we dress or how others are dressed. And that's definitely something that was drilled into my mentality when I was growing up as a Catholic because there are definitely certain rules that you had to abide by when you were entering into the house of God. And so that I feel like what people can relate to whether they were brought up in that religion or not. But um, it's an interesting concept also when we're talking about the workplace because we're talking about modesty. A lot of people sometimes associate that with not being braggadocious. But if you're a woman in the workplace, particularly in the tech industry and the workplace, could it sometimes be a disadvantage for you because you are quote unquote being too modest and you're not speaking up for yourself. Whether it be something like a good idea that you have in a large group meeting or speaking up about a great accomplishment that you've done for the organization.Yum (07:12):Sometimes modesty is um, equated with humility and submission and women that are um, more covered up or more modest or even just more quiet are seen as more submissive at home in the workplace, in their religion. And yeah, it can definitely work against you. Women that are that way sometimes get put in that bucket at work, whether people don't listen to them as much or don't take their voices seriously or um, don't give them the opportunity to say something. Sometimes you have to pause and let someone who might not be as loud as you are, come forth and say something meaningful from their perspective. And a lot of time we tend to take people who are more modest, a step next to us and just put them in that bucket of silence and submission and oppression and, and their views kind of go away. And that's sad in religion and in life and in the workplace,Alex (08:10):I think it's really easy for people to get an impression of you before you open your mouth. Right? So what are they going to go off of? They're going to go off of how we look and a lot of times for women, how we're dressed, how much we're covered up, how much makeup we have on, you know, if we decided to do our hair that day or night. I mean there's just, there's so many ways for people to sort of misinterpret who we are as a person. And I feel like if we're not mindful of how quote unquote modest we are in the workplace, then are we sort of doing that to ourselves. And then I also think there's a very fine line of that level of modesty because very easily, like you mentioned, young, if we're just naturally loud and we naturally just have this sort of emphatic tone, all too often it can be misinterpreted in a negative way. And I feel like that is something that is very specific to women. So what do we do? Do we need to be less modest?Faria (09:20):Heck no.Yum (09:23):Um, I do think there's this, there's a place for women to stand up for other women in this context. Um, I definitely think men allies are awesome, but sometimes that permission from a man to speak is just really patronizing. Um, so what, what I would say is if you work with a woman who is more modest or even a woman who is on the opposite and is loud and vivacious and does not dress modestly, um, perhaps bringing their voice into a conversation or just pausing and letting them speak. Um, and as a woman, of course, definitely inviting those women to the conversation and into outside life as well, especially in the tech industry. I find you make really close friendships and you, you do things outside of work and sometimes the women who are seen as more religious, I am doing air quotes, uh, are, aren't invited because they're seen as, they would not enjoy this simply because of the way they dress and what we think their religion is.Alex (10:22):That's a very good point. I completely agree with that and I feel like that's something that probably both men and women are, are guilty of. Take the time, I guess take the time to get to know someone instead of sort of making an assumption based on how they look or how they appear. So. Okay. Do you, do either of you kind of find yourselves being mindful of this in your own workplace? You know, especially when we're talking about, you know, in the world of it, is there a balance that you try to find for yourself that you're trying to create when it comes to being modest, whether it's, you know, how you're dressed or just, you know, how you are being interpreted by others in the workplace.Faria (10:59):I don't think I really take that into consideration to be honest. Yes. I had a great conversation this week where someone told me I should enter every room with the confidence of a white man. And so that's something I'm working on that thing.Alex (11:16):Oh my g... that is gold. that needs to be on bumper stickers. I want a tshirt that says that.Faria (11:31):Yeah, no, it was very eyeopening. Right. And I think, and we can have probably a whole nother podcast episode on just confidence in itself. Um, you know, right. But I think it relates to modesty, to your point of how you carry yourself. Right. Um, and going back to actually Yum when you were talking about, you know, someone who's loud and vivacious and who, uh, dresses less modesty though modestly, that was interesting to, because I think I know a lot in a lot of loud and vivacious people. So I come, I come from a more conservative Muslim background. My family is pretty conservative Muslims. And I was raised in a small town in a small Muslim community that was pretty conservative. Uh, but I know a lot of loud, vivacious Muslim women who are like that with their personality. But then in terms of dress, they wear the hijab, which is the head covering or the niqab, which covers everything but your eyes. So it's funny cause it's like there. What would you be defining Montessori as, right. So as someone who is more of a voracious, who is more loud and more outgoing, I try to be more quiet and listen to other people I'm working on not interrupting others has been something I've been really trying, actively trying to work on. Because by nature I love talking and I will talk over other people. Um, which is not the right thing to do. So giving others a space to converse and also active listening. So not, I'll admit it, I did the listening where it's like, okay, I'm listening to you because I'm waiting for you to finish. So I can say what I have to say. Cause I have three thoughts in my head right now, but active listening, of holding a space for this person to communicate with my full attention because that is what they deserve.Alex (13:07):So, okay. What about,you know, this kind of is making me thinking about just kind of how I was supposed to or not supposed to, I guess maybe how it was expected to behave when I was, you know, at Sunday school or when I was at mass or you know, when I was even, let's say around a certain group of people that maybe only interacted with me when we were at, you know, church gatherings. Um, I feel like for me personally, it was a certain Alex that people interacted with when I was at Catholic functions and at Catholic mass and so on and so forth versus the openness I guess that I found when I started going to Bible groups and Bible studies and, um, functions for the nondenominational church, which for me, that journey started happening when I was in college. And I don't know if you know, that is a Testament to those two religions or if it was just my experience personally, but I definitely would say that I felt like I had to be a certain level of modest when I was being brought up in the Catholic faith versus when I switched over to being nondenominational. Christian. Did either of you have some kind of experience similar to that?Faria (14:28):I feel like I kind of did. Um, so yeah, I grew up coming from a more conservative Muslim background I think. And I know not only am I less modest when it comes to talking a lot, but also in, um, kind of my habits of dress. So I was the first woman in my immediate family who did not wear the hijab, the head covering, um, every, almost everyone I knew more for at least some period of time. Some took it off. Um, so from just the very get go, um, it wasn't something I wanted to partake in. And I'm more the type of person who it's hot outside, like I'm gonna wear short sleeves instead of committing to something like that. Um, that's not saying anything about me as a person, good or bad. That's not saying anything about people who choose to dress that way. It's just, I noticed very early on I was different in a sense. So yeah, the Faria that went to the mosque, uh, obviously I wore a hijab there. I covered my hair cause it was a place of God. Uh, I interacted a little differently because, uh, it, it was, it just was a little bit more of a conservative setting and toned down my mannerisms. You know, a lot of it was for Sunday school, so you can't get all my monks just there. I mean you can, but that's how you get Sunday school detention. Your parents aren't happy. Um, so yeah, it was in college actually because I was in the same town for the first 18 years of my life, which I didn't. I thought that was everyone's normal. And then I realized it wasn't, I went to a bigger university with more people and um, not just more people and more Muslims, but a more diverse group of Muslims too. So my family is Pakistani. Um, so I met Muslims from all different kinds of countries and who, you know, different, um, sects too. My family is Sunni Muslim. Um, and I didn't even know about some of the sex cause there wasn't that, uh, open-mindedness I feel like taught to me and my faith journey growing up. And that's where I really kind of started to see how there are so many different levels and how you can be modest in so many different ways. And that's something I started gravitating to. I started to lean more towards, I don't have to cover every inch of my skin to be modest. And that became my personal choice.Yum (16:34):Confession time, baby. I'm only went to shool slash synagogue, slash tempo, whatever you wanna call it. Um, for school purposes. My parents lived and I obviously, um, our family lived on a little Hilltop in Israel, in the North of Israel, just South of Lebanon, surrounded by other little Hilltop villages, um, surrounded by, um, hilltops of Arab villages. And I went to school with, um, most of the people in the surrounding areas. And the schools in Israel are Jewish. It's a Jewish state. And we do, you know, celebrate every, every, uh, Friday. I almost said Yoshi, but that would not make sense to most of your listeners. So every Friday we would have a couple of Shabbat at school where you would welcome a Shabbat. We welcome, um, the day of rest Saturday for Jews. Um, and that was my normal at school, at home. Never ever, ever. My mom, I don't, I love my mom dearly and if you're listening, I'm sorry, but she, um, she doesn't cook much or at all. She is a grandma now, but not your stereotypical Jewish grandma because I make all the chicken soup. So we, I had a very different upbringing, what you would call a religious Jew. I would, I was more of a, of a secular Jew with a lot of Jewish history. But my understanding of modesty, um, came so much later, like way into college. You guys like were into college. I went to NC state, go Wolfpack and um, we had this NC state is made up of red bricks. They signed this, I don't know if actually this is a rumor, maybe someone out there can validate, but uh, apparently they signed a contract and got a lot of their bricks for super cheap because they bought so friggin many. Um, so the entire campus is RedBrick including the well known brick yard, which is, you know, made a brick and very slippery in the winter or when it's raining, which is, you know, full time in North Carolina and you can't walk without slipping. So you have to be real careful what you wear because when you slip on brick, it's not just going down, you're going down, legs up. And we had the lovely Brickyard preacher who used to stand on his little, I don't know what it's called, a box. Um, I'm sure there's another name for it. It was, it's, it's just a little, it's a cute little box with a little, um, podium. And he used to yell at people walking by about, um, the, how much they are sitting and where he thinks they should go and isn't it lovely? Great. I feel like I feel like they're pretty universal. And I was walking by wearing my normal young clothes, um, which at the time was probably like gym shorts and a tee shirt on my way to biology class, thinking about what I'm going to dissect today. And he like yells at me when I walked past whore and I'm just like, I'm 18, I don't know what you're talking about. Oh no, you guys, that was, it was hurtful. I don't, I w you know, totally not what I was expecting. Of course it was raining that day and I slipped and fell legs up right in front of him. Luckily there were, there were some very burly, um, football players that were walking right behind me who like pulled me up and started walking me away. And there's two things you should probably know about me. One is I can control my temper and two is I have no filter. So, um, something like this could be really bad for all parties. So thank you. Burly football man that I never met again for, um, you know, probably rescuing me from being arrested. Um, but yeah, Brickyard preacher dude taught me about modesty and taught me about how modesty sometimes is in the eye of the beholder and sometimes it's in the eye of the be the bearer, if you will. Yeah. So, so that was really an eye opener for me.Alex (20:40):That's really interesting. I think maybe you bring up about, you know, when, when we're talking about modesty in terms of our appearance and more specifically what we're wearing or not wearing. You know, that's an interesting question is it's the person's responsibility who is wearing the clothing or is it the person's responsibility? Who is Ewing the clothing? And then, you know, to take that a step further, if we're going back to the story that Aria shared earlier about, you know, sort of averting your eyes, if you will. Um, and I'm going to attempt to say this correctly, so young helped me if I, if I bought this, but when it comes to the ha ha that says, thank you that says don't pray in front of an in, modestly dressed woman and we have to divine define those terms. Right? So is it, are those terms in the IBD holder or the terms in, you know, the person who's wearing the clothing and then to take that even further, maybe go cry somewhere else?Faria (21:38):Um, yeah, so I think I'll go, I don't know too much about Judaism, so not speaking to these specific rules or trying to offend anyone. But when you say that Alex actually reminds me of my favorite Bollywood movie or one of my favorite Bollywood movies, there's a line where, um, the, the lead actress or whatever is talking to her sister and she's like, why did you wear that to the tumble? Everyone at the temple was staring at you and her sister's like, well, if everybody in the temple was staring at me instead of God, that's their problem, not mine. Um, and I was just like, yes, cause I love that scene. Um, and I recognize that not everybody has an opinion. Uh, but I do, I, you know, with that, I think it opened up that I lean more towards, it's, uh, on the responsibility of not the person who is dressing her appearing that way. But the other, because I think yes, modesty is, is very, can be very physical, right, in terms of dress, in terms of makeup, things like that. But my take is you don't know that person's intention behind it. Right? Like I, my mother, I think the first time Yama was really bonding with your story because, um, I mean, I love my mother a lot more than I'm sure you'd like that preacher, but she called me like a whore once I was 16 and I wore red lipstick for the first time and she said, uh, she said I looked like a streetwalker. Uh, but she said it in ODU, so to add some color to this podcast, her exact words were [inaudible], which means you look like a woman of the night, which meant hooker. And I was like, thanks mom. I'm 16 and you and dad said I could wear this and now that I've worn it, you're mad. I'm so sorry.Alex (23:09):Insult.Faria (23:10):Yeah, I know. Yeah. She was like, why do you look at woman on the street? I was like, I didn't even know what meant like hooker. Like that part came later. By the way, I was like, I am a woman and we're about to start one of the night. Yeah. I was like, I am a woman and it's night and we are about to go somewhere. Like it didn't click till later bless my baby Faria heart. Um, cause I was like, where are you mad? Yeah, man. I'm just like, it's fine. It's fine. I was like, wait, but she seems upset. So I lean more to the side. That is, it's the responsibility of the person who is seeing or witnessing any other type of dress or the person who is dressing quote unquote modestly or modestly. Because I think intention plays a big role in that. And we don't know people's intentions, right? We don't know what's going on in their head, but what we do know is ours, our thoughts and feelings and what we can control is our actions and how we choose to react or handle a situation that we feel is in modest or too modest or however you'd put it.Yum (24:05):I'm just going to say that once I was the, the on the side of the be-wearer, it is in the eye of the bearer. What he or she thinks is modest. Um, but I think I've switched to the camp of both.Alex (24:18):Oh, interesting.Yum (24:19):Yes. And it's been a very recent switch you guys because of this very last 2020 Superbowl that I have switched.Alex (24:29):Are you referencing J-Lo and Shakira?Yum (24:32):I am. In fact, yes. First of all, let me preface this by saying that I have a huge amount of respect for them and for Adam Levine who was, you know, the year before shirtless, the energy that my Facebook stream had that night and probably for a week afterwards commenting on what they were wearing, how they were dancing, what they were doing, what they were saying really kind of struck me as, you know, it doesn't really matter what they were thinking they were wearing. Everybody else is hating on them except for not because those women are in their forties and fifties and they look better than I do right now. So really I wasn't hitting on you, Shakira and J-Lo. I love you and just going to share a little tidbit with you. Part of my fitness routine is pole fitness. So seeing J-Lo up on that pole is like my life's goal. Really? Yeah. Do you see her in hustlers? I did. In fact here in hustlers, I've done one of my classes before. It is not easy girl. It is what got me in shape after two babies. Um, the core strength that it takes and the arm strength and the back strength don't even get me started. This is way, way, way, not what we were talking about before this podcast. I asked, um, my mom's group who are very varied in their beliefs and in their personalities and I respect all of them a whole lot. What they thought about modesty in general because we did have a thread talking about whether we covered our children's eyes during the halftime show and kind of what we landed on was, you know, what was really to blame was camera angles. And I'm going to bet that the person behind the camera who's deciding where the camera's going to go and what it's going to look like was not a woman. So at the end of the day, at the end of the day when they're saying, well she shouldn't have jello, shouldn't have done that. Like widespread slide. Excuse me, how are you going to slide without whites, without like widespread legs? People who have never tried to slide are saying this, but people who are saying that because, Oh my gosh, the camera was right there. Who put the camera right there? Ladies and gentlemen, not the ladies. So I think, I think there is a something to be said for the people who are watching to bring it back to Israel. There was a situation in the military where um, Israel wanted religious men to serve in the military and Israel. Everyone at 18 serves and religious men often get exempt to go study. And Israel said, nah, actually you're going to go in and be part of part of the military. You're going to serve as well for your three years. And they said, we can't serve or we can't. So they have their, they have, um, the more religious men have their own little, um, segment in the Israeli military. So we do try to accommodate. But they said they couldn't come to a, uh, event because there was a choir at the beginning and that had women in it who were wearing skirts that did not reach their knees and that would, that would give them inappropriate thoughts and they therefore they could not go and then they wanted to get out of the military altogether. Pretty much what I'm saying here is I do think that it, I think sometimes it gets mangled, but it is both who is wearing it and what we feel about it and whether we feel modest in what we're wearing versus what, um, Faria you can look at me when, you know, when we're together in a room and be like, Holy crap, that shirt is a low cut and that's, you know, your prerogative and I can't stop you from thinking that. And it's fine if you think that I'm still gonna wear the shirt.Alex (27:51):So taking, taking this concept back into the workplace, if we're talking about let's say the it version of modesty, is that really just boundary setting and then, you know, is it, are we sort of setting these boundaries to sort of protect people from themselves, whether that be, you know, security risks or whether it be potentially preventing you from getting eyed for a promotion because your direct supervisor is getting the wrong impression from either your low cut shirt or maybe the fact that you wear ripped up tee shirts and jeans to work every day. When is it okay to have boundaries setting in the workplace when it comes to modesty?Yum (28:35):So I think IT is a really interesting, um, subsection of people. Uh, especially. So I come from a, um, small business SaaS background and the people I worked with came to work in leggings and ripped up jeans. And, um, every time the company wanted to give us a gift, it was a hoodie. Like this is the kind of people that I worked with. And they were, they were expecting the same for me. There was never an expectation that I get very, very dressed up to come to work. In fact, some of the women who did come to work more dressed up, and I'm not talking like more modestly because those t-shirts come up to your neck. So it's not, it's not that kind of a problem. I'm just talking about like, you know, sharper. I'm more sharply dressed. They were seen as the ones that were trying too hard. Yes, they were most of the time busy, uh, sales women and they needed to feel the part in order to speak the part. You know, nobody sees them, um, where we do most of our sales by phone, but it was important for them to feel that way. And I do think that more and more we are coming to a place, work and life are intersecting in a way that it hasn't before. And I think boundary setting is probably one of the most important things that we can do for ourselves. Um, I don't know about you too, but I'm a millennial and what we, what we kind of grew up on was a work life balance. But I heard on a radio talk show that gen Z is actually talking about work life blending where they want, um, they want businesses to be more okay with their life and their work really being one thing. If you expect me to answer an email at 7:00 PM, it's okay for me to go to the doctor at 10:00 AM and for you not to know about it. See what I'm saying? Like it's, it's more of a blending than it is a separation, which is what, which is what we were taught to want. Right. They were like, you're going to find a nine to five and then you're going to leave your work at work and go home and do your thing. Um, as a community manager, that's impossible. I answer emails all the time. I answer emails on PTO. Not that I should, but I do. Am I inviting people to treat me a certain way? Probably and I should probably stop. That's kind of, it's kind of expected of me at this point. At what point do I say I have this amount of self-respect, which is related to modesty, because modesty is having enough self-respect to dress in a way that shows that you are not trying to be overtly sexual or overtly whatever, or maybe you are good for you.Alex (30:58):So is it maybe because your boundaries are, have become less modest that now this is sort of what's expected of you because this is the impression that you've given to people and that's what they've perceived in terms of your availability, in terms of, you know, your work life blend or balance or lack thereof. You know, is it sort of we're setting these boundaries by determining how modest we are with our time, with our words, with our actions, with our dress. So kind of like what you were saying earlier, I think that it does fall back on us a little bit, but it's still also in the eye of the beholder. So I would agree actually. I think it's bothYum (31:49):Welcome to my "both" camp. Population 2: you and me.Alex (31:52):but when it comes to it, you know, there are definitely certain scenarios where being more modest is without a doubt. A plus. Right? Like if we're talking about security measures, if we're talking about, um, just really kind of helping people to protect them from themselves, cause you may not be a malicious user, but you may just be a user who's too busy and trying to do too many things at one time and then you become a security risk to the organization and you should have been a little bit more modest about your passwords.Yum (32:21):Yeah, I think you're right Alex. I think, um, companies need to be very modest with the access they're giving their users. And I think users need to be, um, respectful of the boundaries that they're setting and the boundaries that their work is setting. I know a lot of times we get, um, for laptops from the companies that we, that we work for. Um, and perhaps, um, being respectful to yourself and being respectful to the company and not using that laptop as your personal machine and inviting in, um, security risks that way. Or even just, you know, at the end of the day it can go in and take a look, see and see everything you've Googled for the past. You know, however long you've been working for the company and do you really want that? Cause I don't,Alex (33:05):right, right. In case in case anyone was unaware that that is going on at their workplace, it's definitely happening. And you should, uh, adjust accordingly.Faria (33:16):Okay. I'm going to be honest, I have a lot of Buzzfeed articles, the ones that are like incentivizing you to buy this thing under $15 because you need it in your life and it's because they pop up and I'm like, bookmark, save, go look and buy all the things later. So yes, sorry. Office peopleYum (33:32):Faria that is, that is the least of their worries. Um, as a, as a side gig, I am a writer slash, editor and um, my biggest issue is I'm Googling how to murder people, but we can talk about this some other day.Alex (33:47):So would you say that, just to kind of bring this back and kind of round it out, is there something from your faith or your religion that maybe I think IT could learn from or maybe even that you've taken that principle or that idea and it's carried over into your professional life?Faria (34:11):Yeah, I would, I would say don't be afraid to be open-minded and challenge what you've been taught because I feel like this is like, you know, take a dog or take a drink every time she says she came from a conservative background. But yeah, like I didn't question things for 18 years. Right. Um, and just kind of accepted what I heard and believed, which was all great and wonderful. Uh, then maybe not the best fit for me. Right. So I think also as someone in her early career, um, I'm at just my second company right now out of college. So, uh, being new, kind of in that early career stage, there was a lot of, uh, maybe X, Y, Z is exactly what I need to do to advance or to meet the goals or to do the things. And I get afraid to challenge or to speak my mind or to say something different because that's not the way it's always been done. Um, and so yeah, just kind of learning to be open and to trust myself I think is something that resonates with me in modesty or in faith. And also in the workplace.Yum (35:13):I'm actually going to draw from my, um, educational experience about theology in general. Um, and, and across many, um, the many religions that I've learned about both pretty in depth and just surface level, almost every single religion way of life. Um, anything, whatever you want to call it, spirituality has, um, some sort of need either privacy or or sneeze or modesty or whatever you can call it. And I think, um, companies can learn from that as well, especially in it. Every company should have their proper use of computer bylaws and rules of engagement within their company and an understanding that people come from different backgrounds and it's not always easy and it's not always comfortable. Um, and sometimes it gets real awkward if you meet, for example, uh, a Jewish man who will not high five or will not shake hands or a Jewish woman who won't, um, give you a hug, which is apparently, you know, accepted or expected of, of women. Nowadays, I think that's, that's this generation's you should smile more. But I do think that, uh, every company should understand modesty, understand self-respect, understand boundaries. Um, we'll see when we get there.Destiny (36:33):Thanks for making time for us this week to hear more of technically religious visit our website, technicallyreligious.com where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect to us on social media.  

In-depth with a teenager who lives with type 1.  Stacey interviews her son Benny, who was diagnosed just before he turned two. They talk about Control IQ, explaining what diabetes is to people who don't know and what he does these days for sports and other activities. Check out Stacey's new book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Benny answers listener questions and looks back on 13 years of T1D. Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! In TMSG – graduation good news, two popular diabetes books get an update and more This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Sign up for our newsletter here The "Pink Panther" Book update Think Like A Pancreas update ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android   Episode transcription:  Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop created for people with diabetes by people who have diabetes. By Real Good Foods real food you feel good about eating and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom.   Announcer  0:20 This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms   Stacey Simms  0:26 this week in depth with a teenager who lives with type one, okay, it's my son Benny. We covered a lot of ground here answering your questions including sports, what he tell his teammates when they travel for sports and stay overnight.   Benny  0:41 I tell them that nasal spray thing - Baqsimi if I don't wake up or if I pass out, do that and then go get coach.   Stacey Simms  0:47 We talked about feeling self conscious about diabetes gear, what he remembers about being a little kid with type one and his feelings about the new Control IQ system. I think this interview was a good idea? Tell me something good graduation news two popular diabetes books get updates and more. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of Diabetes Connections. I am so glad to have you along we aim to educate and inspire about type 1 diabetes by sharing stories of connection. If you are new Welcome, my name is Stacey Simms. I am your host, my son Benny, who you will hear this week was diagnosed right before he turned two. He is now 15. My husband lives with type two diabetes. I don't have diabetes at all. But I have a background in broadcasting and local radio and television and that is how you get the podcast. Before we get to Benny and oh my goodness. Like I've already said I'm hoping this was a good idea. I think he has good information to share. It's a little odd to interview your own son. But before we get to him, I have some great news of my own to share the world. First diabetes mom, my book that's been out for a couple of weeks now won an award, my publisher sent me an email. And by now I've probably shared it over social media, as you're listening to this spark publications announces that the world's worst diabetes mom has won an award of distinction as part of the 2020 communicator awards. This is part of the Academy of Interactive and visual arts. I'm really excited about this. Of course, it's not just about the writing, but about the design of the book. And we work really carefully on that the cover alone, we went back and forth quite a bit, but then inside to make it really easy to read. And a nice experience. I mean, oh, my goodness, I was who knew so much went into things like this. I mean, when you think about it for more than a minute you get it. But Wow. If you've ever been involved in any kind of book publishing, there's a lot of steps to it. So it's very exciting to see all of our hard work rewarded with this award. So thanks for indulging me and letting me talk about it a little bit. The book has really been an incredible excuse. For me, and I hope if you've read it, you've enjoyed it. I hope if you haven't read it, you'll consider giving it a chance. You can always learn more, of course at the website Diabetes connections.com. But the book is for sale on Amazon paperback ebook, you know, Kindle and audiobook which I married. And if you're listening to this episode as it first airs on Tuesday, the 26th of May, then tomorrow night I'm actually doing a world worse diabetes mom event with jdrf a couple of the southeast chapters got together we're doing a zoom presentation all about it, sharing our mistakes and mishaps what we learned from them and why they're just the best way to go right? You got to make all the mistakes when it comes to diabetes or parenting in general. And I'll put more information about that in the Facebook group and on social media. I'd love to have you join us. All right, my conversation with Benny in just a moment but first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by One Drop.  Getting diabetes supplies is a pain. Not only the ordering and the picking up but also the arguing with insurance about what they say you need and what you really need. Make it easy With One Drop, they offer personalized test strip plans plus you get a Bluetooth glucose meter test strips lancets and your very own certified diabetes coach. Subscribe today to get test strips for less than $20 a month delivered right to your door. No prescriptions or co pays required. One less thing to worry about not that surprising when you learn that the founder of One Drop leaves with type one, they get it One Drop gorgeous gear supplies delivered to your door 24 seven access to your certified diabetes coach learn more, go to Diabetes- connections.com and click on the One Drop logo.   My guest this week was pretty easy to book because I know his schedule. He lives in my house. He is my 15 year old son. And if you've listened to the show for a long time, you know I really try to balance how much I share about Benny's experience with type one. It's a balance of, you know not oversharing to compromise his privacy, but also sharing them To help people, he's always been a really good sport about it. And we've really weighed and measured over his entire life because he was diagnosed at 23 months, how much to talk about him. I mean, even really before that, because I was on the radio when he was born. I mean, both of my kids, I was a local TV reporter when I was pregnant with Lea, my daughter, and I was in radio, I was at WBT where I worked for a decade doing the morning show there. I think I was there for a year before I got pregnant with Benny. And so my listeners went through that process with me. You know, they saw me out at events and it was a whole big deal about, you know, how much are we going to talk about how much are we going to share, and when he was diagnosed with type one, and my listeners wanted to learn more, we had to go through it all over again. So I err on the side of sharing less, which may strike you as bananas because I just talked to my book where we talk about all our stories and our family stuff. But I really do I mean, if you look at a lot of the mom bloggers out there, and especially the Instagram people, you know, I really don't share our day to day. I don't think that's fair to him. I'm saying all this I'm sorry for the big lead up. Because it's hard for me to interview Benny, it's hard for me to kind of push and probe for more. He's funny, as always, he gives great information, I think, of course, he is 15 years old. A couple of quick notes to that. 15 years old, and really goofing around on the microphone. There's probably more editing than usual in this episode. So please forgive us if parts of it sound a little choppy, although I'm sure my editor john, you can smooth most of that out. But really, there were times where I really I just, we were goofing around so much, I had to cut it out. And there's a little bit at the end to give you a taste of that. And I mean, the very end of the show, I included it's not really a blooper, but it's just oh my god, what he was doing with the microphone. Also, he does say this is the only correction I'll make. We talked about Control IQ and he says he's in range 80% of the time. I wish. It's still excellent. It's closer to 70% of the time, which is wonderful and it's certainly a lot less work. We talk about that a little bit too. But I have to correct that he is not in range 80% of the time. And the only other thing is listening back to this. I don't want anybody to misunderstand. We are mean to each other. I mean, I call him a couple of mean names. It's just our relationship. I mean, it's kind of the way we pick on each other. If you don't know us, too well, I'm just a little worried that you might think we're really mean to each other. I think you can hear that. It's all in good fun. We are so fortunate to have a great relationship. But it's been a while since I had him on the show. And you all had a bunch of questions for him. So I asked, he answered. Here's my conversation with Benny. Stacey So how are you holding up? I'm good. All right. Well, we got lots of questions for you. From listeners and the Facebook group, you started on Control IQ at the end of January. And we were well past three months now. Use any perspective Any comments? What do you think Vinnie? You'd   Benny  7:55 No, it's much better than it was before cuz I'm in range. Like 80% of the day?   Unknown Speaker  8:02 Yeah, it's wild. What have you noticed in terms of me?   Benny  8:06 I'm curious if you're much more now you like, Is it working? Is it working? Is it working? No, I'm not.   Stacey Simms  8:15 Any tips or tricks? You don't bolus when you're on the higher side, right? Because we found that that kind of   Benny  8:21 plummets you. Yeah. Don't do to see but in Control IQ, it won't bring you up from lows.   Stacey Simms  8:27 But you still do to receive and Control IQ   Benny  8:29 because I like juice.   Stacey Simms  8:31 Cuz you like juice? Yeah. You're an idiot. What?   Alright, so you use Control IQ, and you still take a daily shot after Seba, even though your insulin needs have gone way down. Why do you continue doing that your Seba?   Benny  8:47 I don't know.   Stacey Simms  8:48 Well, you know your mother mentioned you might want to stop and you said no, I thought you had a reason less insulin usage. You mean like in the pump, you don't use the cartridge. You should try it. You're not really using balance. Well, now we have to talk to the endo again and okay. Would you think of the telehealth visit that we did by the way? That was rough.   Benny  9:08 It was rough about it. You guys couldn't find any. Oh, yeah, we had probably his first one.   Stacey Simms  9:14 And he didn't have clarity and he didn't have to connect up even though the office said that they did. So it was a little weird, but were you okay with just talking to him that way? Well, yeah, I mean,   Benny  9:22 it's better in person. Because that our interests are pretty cool guy. Let's get to the questions   Stacey Simms  9:29 in the Facebook group, Rodney Miller. Hi, Rodney, who runs bolus and barbells he said Why am I Benny's favorite? strong man diabetic.   Benny  9:38 My favorite strong man diabetic actually for your information? Cuz I'm the best Oh, you're those favorite strong man. Oh, all right. Well, we'll see you guys in competition. Maybe I can guide when armwrestling contest. I don't know man. my biceps are massive friends for   Stacey Simms  9:52 life. 2021 showdown. Rod me and Betty. Okay. Ronnie says does he feel does Betty feel like having Such a strong advocate for a mom has provided him unique opportunities to connect to the diabetic community.   Benny  10:06 Yes, would have never met Rodney. Ernie almost got the chance to meet the rock was very close to that. Brick bassinger those people are pretty cool friends for life is a lot of fun. Justin Thomas, Jeffrey, those guys are pretty cool, too. I don't think I would have really met them without mom. You know, no one's putting us in trials. So you know, is that   Stacey Simms  10:30 isn't that funny that we can't get you into a clinical trial?   Benny  10:33 I think they it's obvious that they know we're just too cool. They don't they don't want to risk something not working on people that are just so awesome.   Stacey Simms  10:41 But we'll keep trying. All right. Shelby wanted to know, when you were younger, what did you say when other kids asked about your pump or CGM? How did you handle the curiosity of other kids   Benny  10:52 said I'm a robot. I still say I'm a robot and then I actually explained it. I remember one time a gorgeous went What's this and ripped up my pump? Wow, that was Fine. I don't really remember anything. Besides that.   Stacey Simms  11:02 I remember when you were, and this might be the same story when you were in preschool. They told me that you were all kind of like lining up to go to the bathroom or something. And the kid behind you said, Hey, what's that and started to pull on it, and you turned around, and you were like, three? And you're like, that's my diabetes. And you were very straightforward. Like, don't mess around with that. Don't touch that. That's mine. Or I guess, like, touch my diabetes. You're like, but you were always we're very lucky because you were always very straightforward about it very open about it. And you never have seemed to minded   Benny  11:36 Well, yeah, no, I don't care. Like if you don't like me, because I have diabetes go away. You suck by God, what am I gonna say? Like, Oh, no, darn.   Stacey Simms  11:45 Well, you know, you're not self conscious about it, which I think is, is wonderful and made it easier for us. But I don't know how you teach that to somebody, right? You just have always been that way.   Benny  11:55 I just kind of like I need it. Don't touch it.   Stacey Simms  11:58 So I guess the answer is you've been very straightforward about it little humor, but mostly not hiding it and saying here it is.   Benny  12:03 Sometimes I trick my friends into thinking they're giving me insulin, I disconnect my pump and I give them the pump and they still think it's connecting. They go, can I kill you? I say yes. And then I let them give me like six units, and they think that I'm gonna die. And it's really funny. Why would you tell me that? Because it's funny.   Stacey Simms  12:20 Why that is terrible that your pumps all messed up, especially with Control IQ. We think I don't   Benny  12:25 do that much anymore. Okay. So like, once, once, once every other month. This is more like a fifth grade thing. Yeah. Please tell me you don't do that anymore. I do it like once. Maybe I did it once with Jackson.   Stacey Simms  12:37 I'm gonna kill you. Okay. Let's see. Dee writes as a teen athlete. What are your best tips to manage on your own during a sports event or overnight sports trips. We have a lot of those this year.   Benny  12:49 We have but I wasn't   Stacey Simms  12:50 competing. I know which is why I wasn't which is why it was very easy for me   Benny  12:55 to let you go. I don't think it's very smart to be on your own with anything. ports, you should have at least one person with you that knows what's going on. Just you know, just in case but like, if you are alone, which is again, not smart,   Stacey Simms  13:08 she means on your own without your mom or dad, because you're on a trip is not going to be like the coach is going to be there. The team is going to be there. So why don't you talk a little bit about what you told the kids when   Benny  13:18 I first joined the team coach made us all sit down and made me tell everyone what was up. Basically all I told them was I have diabetes. It sucks. If I faint there's a thing in the in the pouch that you stick up my nose or you go to coach or the athletic trainer. Don't let me die.   Stacey Simms  13:39 Well and when you go on overnights you're not alone in the room, but there's not an adult anymore. Yeah. So what do you tell the kids that are with you?   Benny  13:48 I tell them the thing like the the nasal spray thing. So like see me if I don't wake up or if I pass out, do that and then go get coach.   Stacey Simms  13:57 What do they say? Are they like okay, yeah, they don't Nobody seems freaked out in there.   Benny  14:02 I mean, a bunch of them are scared of needles and it's fun to mess around with them but   Stacey Simms  14:07 and I do send you you know you have a kit, we make sure that there's lots of food and drinks and all that stuff. And you have your snacks and your your Welch's fruit snacks. That's one thing that made it easier in a way last year you weren't competing because you had your knee injury. So I wasn't too worried about the ups and downs this coming year, assuming all goes well and you wrestle again. I'm not exactly sure what I'm going to do for those first couple of overnights. Well, you said it like I was gonna ask you what to do. I'm not I'm either going to come near and stay nearby. Oh, no, dad,   Benny  14:43 if anyone's coming is that   Stacey Simms  14:44 that's a great idea your father can go. I don't think I would like I'm not gonna make you stay in the hotel room with me. You can still say with your friends, but especially with wrestling until we kind of figure out what your body's doing. I think it's really important to get a baseline and then get some protocols and figured out out from there, but I don't I don't intend to sit on You don't worry. I like this one. Kristen says, Is it true that Benny has the best mom ever?   Benny  15:08 No. Oh, you're off the show. No one has the best mom ever. It's literally not possible. There's like a couple billion moms. You know, Mother's Day is just passed.   Stacey Simms  15:20 But that was a missed opportunity, my friend.   Unknown Speaker  15:22 Um,   Benny  15:26 I mean, she's pretty good, but   not the best missed opportunity.   Stacey Simms  15:31 Best you ever had. Okay.   Right back to our conversation. And the next question is going to be advice. What would Benny tell his younger self? We'll get to that in just a minute. First, diabetes Connections is brought to you by Real Good Foods. And on their website. They have real reviews from real people, which makes sense because you know, this is all about real food. You feel real good about eating. And what's nice is with the record As you can see, it's not just people who eat super low carb or who eat keto. There are people who have celiac who can't eat grain. There are people who just love the way the food tastes right? There are people who talk about the airfryer, which is a great way to make so much of their food. It is delicious. We are big fans of their they can put this in the airfryer we're big fans of their new ice cream. And we really love the cauliflower crust pizzas as well, which do really well. In the airfryer find out more, just go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Real Good Foods logo. Now back to my talk with Benny asking him your questions.   Mary says what advice would he tell a younger version of himself about being a teenager with diabetes? So I guess she means what would you say to yourself back   Benny  16:52 then? Keep doing what you're doing. You'll be fine.   Stacey Simms  16:56 I think that's an excellent advice.   Benny  16:57 Yeah, I was a pretty good child. Questions like, Oh, I wish I had depression. No, I was the best.   Stacey Simms  17:04 I think the only advice that you should give your younger self is, if you take your pump off to play football in the neighborhood. You might want to put it someplace smart like a mailbox, just because I lost it a couple of times worse,   Benny  17:17 just because I lost it a couple times. It doesn't mean you have to bring it up again. We always found it. Yeah, I'm pretty good. You're pretty good. Yeah. Your mother had to go your mother. Who is that? Oh,   Laura says does he have any good one liners when people ask about his tech? I'm a cyborg. You have so bad. And people believe me and it's really funny.   Stacey Simms  17:39 Okay, so here's an example. We'll go to someplace brand new and you make friends everywhere you go, which is   Benny  17:43 amazing. I'm kind of jealous of that. So we'll go to the beach where a smile. Yeah, we're just I just wear a smile, where it doesn't have to be real. Where I   Stacey Simms  17:52 smile. We'll go to the beach. And you will, you'll make friends but you have your shirt off your decks calm with the beginning. Put thing on, you know, either on your arm or your stomach. Do people ask about that? And they want to   Benny  18:04 tell him I'm a cyborg.   Stacey Simms  18:06 I'm so serious. And then do you kind of go into any more detail? Not if they don't ask. They just leave it at that. Most of them most of the time. They just leave it at that. That's funny. Okay, so this the next couple of questions came from a different Facebook groups. So while I know a lot of people in the podcast group, these came from a different on a group of moms with elementary school aged children, you know, saying this just as much for the listeners as I am for you. smart alec. has been he ever been bullied over having diabetes. So   Benny  18:36 let's talk about that. Then. No. Okay, unless I don't remember.   Stacey Simms  18:40 No, no. Let's talk about why you think you haven't been bullied about diabetes or picked on? I think part of that is because you were always a bigger kid. Right? So nobody was mad. No. As you listen, I've been trying to edit out that I'm saying And he keeps saying it so now we just have to leave it but but you were you were a bigger kid and you were a nice and fun kid. So nobody ever picked on you for much of anything. Right? I mean, I think the only time that we were in a quote bullying situation was when you were in like fifth grade and a little kid was so trying to pick on you. And you he was like it was like poking the bear with a stick. Luckily, you didn't you didn't take the bait. But I think one of the reasons why nobody picked on you is because nobody picked on you anyway. But also, you were so upfront about it. Yeah, that there was what are they gonna pick on you about   Benny  19:38 how your pancreas doesn't work? What if What a nerd   Unknown Speaker  19:42 but you were always there first to tell people about it and to explain and I was also like, the most popular kid in my elementary school. So   Benny  19:52 there's that too modest to ah, am I wrong?   No, I remember explaining At least there was a time where we were in the gym, and I was running around giving everybody high fives. And they were all chanting my name.   Stacey Simms  20:08 Well, that was I don't want to burst your bubble. There's fifth grade. Well, yeah, but it was also like a jdrf event.   Unknown Speaker  20:13 Oh, that was that school?   Stacey Simms  20:15 Oh, really? Yes. It was gonna be like one of the beam team. No, that that was   Benny  20:19 that was beam team at school.   Unknown Speaker  20:20 frayed right. I'm saying it was a purpose. Yeah, but I'm okay.   Stacey Simms  20:25 But that's a perfect example of how a diabetes thing made you feel great. Yes. And it's hard because I think some kids don't embrace it naturally, which I understand everybody's personality is different. I don't understand it. Well, you will when you grow up. But like, you know, your sister has a completely different personality. She's very introverted. She would not have enjoyed that. And I think she wouldn't have had the same experience you did. So as I'm talking as you're listening, I'm not talking to Betty right now as you're listening. I think it's harder for kids who are Shire, and I don't have that kind of advice so much because Benny's not that way.   Unknown Speaker  20:57 Some of the best. Well, you think you're the   Stacey Simms  20:58 best and as I said, And modest rude, but I think it's okay if your kid isn't out there saying I'm a cyborg and yeah, diabetes and get well not you never said da da da da let's rephrase, yay, beam team and jdrf and all that kind of good stuff when you were younger. I think it's okay if that doesn't happen. But I think that can also the more you keep it into yourself, the harder it can be when other people ask about it, and I think that can kind of lend itself to some difficult situations. Let's put it that way.   Benny  21:27 The lesson from all this tell everyone you have diabetes so you can't get bullied.   Stacey Simms  21:31 Well, I think it helps to be upfront about it. But you know, it's it's not my lessons. Your lessons better also be a big dude. always have a smile on your face. And I hate that you're thinking I'm talking about when you were like six or seven years I was still chunky.   Benny  21:47 I was cute though.   Stacey Simms  21:49 Hey, let's talk for a second because you're bringing it up. Let's talk about your   Benny  21:54 weight loss lost 50 pounds since the summer 50   Stacey Simms  21:56 pounds which is bananas.   Benny  22:00 Turn on, keep going.   Stacey Simms  22:01 Okay, that's fine. But can you talk about how you've done it a little bit only because as your mother, I was really worried when you start it, our dog is going crazy. I was really worried when you started because between diabetes and just body image and eating disorders and all this stuff, I was really concerned, but you seem to have done it in a really great way.   Benny  22:19 I'm gonna be so honest, I've absolutely no idea like how to describe what I did. I ate when I was hungry, but just enough, and then I drink a lot of water and Gatorade.   Stacey Simms  22:27 I can also chime in on just a little bit of what I observed. Because I was, you know, you know, I was making sure you were eating, you know, I was worried.   Benny  22:33 Yeah,   Stacey Simms  22:34 um, you seem to really just cut out empty calorie stacking. We never had a lot of junk food in the house, but you know, no crackers or you know, or things like that. And you stopped eating dessert. Not, not all the time, right. You do have dessert sometimes. But you really stopped eating when you're on the computer. Yeah. Because I think our house helped to now we didn't move until the beginning of March so you were already losing weight. The reason I bring up the new house is because In the old house, the playroom where you had your computer and stuff is right next to the kitchen. Yeah. So obviously it's really easy to snack. Yeah, but you get a lot of willpower and you stop that. But then we moved here. You have been away. The playroom is upstairs and the farthest corner of the house which is, which is great, because we have to hear you screaming. So do I know. But when you play Xbox, you're so loud and I don't really hear you until the hall has this quiet, dude, just don't scream. No, you   Benny  23:26 don't understand. Screaming it's part of the enjoyment.   Stacey Simms  23:28 But the point is, you've you've been able to have a lot of willpower. And also it's helped that you are farther away, but you eat dinner. You know, you eat breakfast, you eat food. It's really been amazing to see I would never have said you had 50 pounds to lose. So, you know, to me, you look you look really thin. Are you okay? I mean,   Benny  23:48 he's kilo. 15 pounds to lose.   Stacey Simms  23:49 Yeah, well, we're gonna talk about that off the year. With wrestling. We'll see   Benny  23:53 17 actually. All right.   Stacey Simms  23:54 The idea here is to be safe and be smart and get where you want to go without the interoceptive Okay, all right, you know, I'm right. We're gonna talk about that off the air. But, you know, the other things that comes with weight loss is you know, you're using a lot less insulin to, which has been really interesting to say, but you're doing great. Okay, and you need some new clothes.   Benny  24:13 Just an entire new wardrobe. I mean, we can't go shopping because of the quarantine stuff. So it's been wild.   Stacey Simms  24:20 I'm not taking you shopping. Okay, this is an interesting question. Elaine says, When did he start total self care, and then separately waking to CGM alarm. I don't wake up to CGM alarms.   Benny  24:32 Okay, I woke up to my blood sugar.   Stacey Simms  24:33 Oh, I was gonna say I know that. I was gonna say it wasn't true because I know you treat overnight and stuff so you feel that you wake up to your body. Yeah, I   Benny  24:39 never once woke up to an alarm. I'm a deep sleeper. When   Stacey Simms  24:45 I don't know because I'm not in your face all the time. But it seems to me that I've seen you go low and I know you treat and then you go back up. So you're waiting on wake up to alarm you're waking up because your body is alright. I've never woken up to an alarm. I will as the mom We'll let you say that I'm going to slightly disagree all   Benny  25:04 tell me about what happens if you wake up and you're filled up. And I'm sweaty. And I'm like this does not feel right. And then I stumble out of bed and if there's low stuff in my room, I take it and if not, I go downstairs and get juice and sit down there until my blood sugar goes back up.   When the dog comes, visits me, Oh, that's nice. When the dog comes as it comes visits,   Stacey Simms  25:25 that's nice when the dog comes to visit. I said I said, to answer the question here, too, we still use Dexcom. Share. We got the Dexcom when you were nine. We started share two years later when it came out. But we spent the first seven years of diabetes with no CGM.   Benny  25:41 That was scary. wasn't scary how we did it.   Stacey Simms  25:44 Well, you really you think that was scary?   Unknown Speaker  25:46 No, you don't remember it? Yeah.   Stacey Simms  25:48 How did we do it? We did it and it was a lot of blood sugar checks. We'll do a show on that sometime. Or at least a discussion of like the olden days, but I'll tell you what, I never really remember being scared. Well, that's not true. There was one time when you were low and you would not come up. That's when I was scared. But I knew you were low. Oh, well, it happened at home and then you threw up and you were fine. You just need to throw up and then retreated. And you were great. I don't know what that was all about. Well, you're gonna say,   Benny  26:15 so I had a counselor at a CCT diabetes camp. Yeah, name, Chris. And the entire week his blood sugar was just like 60 I remember that. He was not like a big dude. Like he was a tiny scrawny little dude. And he ate so much food. And his blood sugar just didn't go up.   Stacey Simms  26:35 Now. I remember he telling me about that. It's crazy. Maybe he needed to throw up   Benny  26:40 there, but it was the entire week. It's crazy. Like I had never seen a person eat so much food. And his blood sugar just didn't go up.   Stacey Simms  26:48 But it didn't go down. Right? It just   Benny  26:50 it was just 60 it was like 60 to 65 the entire week.   Stacey Simms  26:55 Well, the thing I was getting to with CGM is that I used to check You overnight when you were very little. And then as you got a little older, we would only check you overnight if we'd had a weird day, like we just knew something was going on, or you know you were very active. But I also went to work at 330 in the morning, so I would check you at 3am. When I got up, it was kind of easy. That was I wouldn't in my head. That wasn't an overnight check, because I was getting up to go to work. But obviously it was an overnight check. So when you got to CGM, and now that we have share, you might not wake up to the alarms, but I do so I mean, with Control IQ. And with our living situation with you upstairs here. I think I've treated one overnight low. And it was a compression though, right? You were laying on your CGM and I came upstairs and just enrolled you over and went from there. But to answer Elaine's question for real is he hasn't started total self care. No, no. Well, I don't think it's appropriate. You're 15 years old, and you're wonderful, you're independent. I could send you away for a week with anybody and you'd be fine. But in terms of real true self care, we're saving that minute do that it can you do that? A Ken Coleman right. But we're saving self care really here at home until your senior year of high school to give you a year at least maybe. Well, that isn't always talking about that's nice that he thinks that was that really threw dead under the bus. Yeah, well, that's what I do. I were thinking senior year, you're only a freshman. You're finishing your freshman year here. So we're we're still working on it. But I think senior year is good. And yeah, you do total self care when you go to camp Coleman, which is your regular month long camp.   Benny  28:30 The stories I could tell about the nurses. Well, some interesting ones. There's   Stacey Simms  28:35 a medical staff there but not a diabetes staff. So   Benny  28:38 there's a couple that are very good, though. Yes, that's a story for another But no, she only has to stay for two weeks.   Stacey Simms  28:43 We love Karen. Okay, so the best   Benny  28:45 she's the only Karen I like   Stacey Simms  28:46 no that's me. Like how can my best friend grant was a Karen weird name. All right. What were the most helpful accommodations for us school asks Heidi, I'm going to be very interested in what you say here. Repeat. What were the most helpful accommodate for you at school,   Benny  29:01 What was her name Miss? Oh, Miss Hyman Simon?   Stacey Simms  29:05 Yeah. Okay, so Miss Iman was absolutely. I guess the school called her a floater. She was a teaching assistant, who in kindergarten would come in and help you know, she was like the our elementary school always had a teacher and a teacher's assistant for kindergarten, but in first grade they did not have that. Your first grade teacher though, who was a take charge and take care of business lady. Oh, Harrigan, Miss Harrigan? Yeah, she was like, we are not fooling around with this. We need more help. So she got permission to have this time and float in and out and do and help you with your blood sugar checks. And then by the end of first grade, there was another kid by the beginning of second grade, there were four kids in elementary school and Miss Hyman was like the diabetes lady. And she would just help. That's so nice that you remember that?   Benny  29:51 I remember. Like I was with her all the way to like third grade.   Stacey Simms  29:55 Yeah, well, she left the school it was in   Benny  29:57 first grade to third grade.   Stacey Simms  29:58 Yeah. And then you Didn't you really didn't need any of the diabetic nurse? Oh, Julie, who has diabetes? Yeah, she was on the islet cell thing, right? Yes. She had an islet cell transplant. She's been on the show before. So as you listen, yeah, she told all about her islet cell transplant. And yeah, she's a really interesting story. So we'll, I'll link that up in the show notes. You can go back and listen to that past episode. Like Kumbaya,   Unknown Speaker  30:21 like if I Oh, yeah.   Benny  30:24 Um, do you have merge? conflict? The merge?   Stacey Simms  30:26 I don't have any marks. Yeah, one of these days I have my book. The thing that's nice about my book,   Benny  30:31 Lincoln bio,   Stacey Simms  30:33 Instagram, it's audio.   Um, but I would say for accommodations, we had a very, very light 504 plan. And our 504 plan revolved almost all about testing. Because in our school district, unlike many school districts, we actually had a written out diabetes management plan, and every child with diabetes whether you're on a pump or shots or whatever you would Have a de m MP diabetes medical management plan. And you had to fill that out. So that was kind of like your 504.   Benny  31:06 I have a question. Yes, of course, if like, let's say my 504 says I have to have my phone with me, right? Yes. And a teacher takes my phone.   Stacey Simms  31:13 Yes. What do you do? That's a great question. If you felt that your health is at immediate risk, I would excuse yourself and go to the administration office and call me. If you felt your test was at risk. I would take the test. And then upon completion, I would like does that teacher get in trouble? Like what happens? Oh, it depends on the school district. If it was a mistake, it depends on the parent. Okay, so let's say that happened to you. And you were like, I took the test anyway. Okay, and you got a 95 on the test. Okay. I would go into school. And I would say or call the school and I would say, Hey, I understand there's a misunderstanding. Let's talk about it. Let's talk through it. And I would escalate if she was like, if she was great and said, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that's one thing. She says. That's outrageous. You couldn't possibly then I escalate, right? We go to the next person, we go to the next person and this person, let's say you take the test, you get to 65. I would lobby for that score to be thrown out. And you could retake the test. We've never had to do that. Because everybody's good. Yeah, everybody's been very cooperative and accommodating. But I'm all for fighting for you. But I wouldn't start out with a fight. Yeah, I would start out with a Hey, what happened? and go from there. But I don't think it's fair to make you totally advocate for yourself.   Benny  32:29 I would hope you would. I mean, oh, yeah. No, if I knew something was wrong, I would leave the class I'd be like, ministration something's wrong.   Unknown Speaker  32:37 Right. me right.   Stacey Simms  32:38 Like if your blood sugar was high, and they wouldn't let you see the nerve. Here's a really good example. And let's not name the teacher. You used to have migraines. Oh my God, when you were growing up.   Unknown Speaker  32:50 Your teacher didn't believe you.   Benny  32:52 Even after I threw up right in front of her.   Stacey Simms  32:53 Well, I think that was that was the action I was gonna say. What do you think you did that made her listen a little throw up right in front of her threw up in the classroom. I'm right in front of her all over the books. Now, if you were not in the what was that fourth grade? Okay, so let's say you were a freshman in high school, you probably would have left a classroom and vomited in the bathroom and then gone to the nurse. But because you were in fourth grade, and you were probably really nervous to leave, or, you know, there's all these things going on. It's really unfortunate that had to happen. But, you know, it's good to talk about, but back to accommodations, because we have the diabetes medical management plan, which spells out how diabetes was treated, and also said things like, you know, you have to leave the classroom to the bathroom, you're not limited to water, how much water you can drink, all that kind of stuff that was laid out our school district, which is a huge one in the Charlotte area is wonderful about that. So our 504 was all about how he's going to take tests. And we started it in. I had a 504 plan, but we never really used it because of the testing situations. Don't ever use it. Well. Yes, you do. It didn't come into play until third grade finals, right into grade. So in third grade, we started kind of testing at different ways. Big to take tests, the beginning of grade tests. So we decided for For Benny, he wouldn't do anything differently except he's allowed to have his phone with him. He doesn't need his phone right now, really, because your pump has everything on it. But you still take it in, I assume you lay it on the desk at the front of the classroom, sometimes you'll keep it your pocket. Well, so   Benny  34:13 normal testing, like not finals and stuff. It's just in my pocket. But teachers are like, just don't cheat, but during and agree, like finals and stuff when like they like go and collect your phone. I just like, it depends on who's there. Sometimes it's just don't cheat, or sometimes I'll keep it at the front of the class. And if it buzzes, I'll tell you.   Stacey Simms  34:31 Yeah, I think for us, we're gonna find out this year about accommodations for the AC T and the SA T, and things like that. And that'll be an interesting thing to go through as well. If your child is diagnosed younger, this is really easy. Because you you figure it out as they get older. Right. And by the time they're in middle school, I think High School is when testing really starts counting. But I mean, it counts in middle school too. But by the time they're old enough to take these tests that really matter. Yeah, you're understanding what they need because some kids need a lot more money. than you do, your blood sugar doesn't skyrocket because of test stress. We have friends who they walk into their final exam and their blood sugar goes to 300. Really? Yeah. But I think right in terms of most important accommodation, I would say it's actually on the parents side. And that is being able to work with the school as a team, being able to go into those meetings and say, I want to be I want to work as a team. I want to see how this goes like let's work together, which sounds very Kumbaya and woowoo. But it really helps it helps me rather than going in and saying, I'm gonna fight for my kids rights. Like there are a lot of situations, unfortunately, where you do have to fight. But you know, going in without guns blazing is very dark principles.   Benny  35:37 Cool.   Stacey Simms  35:38 Well, your elementary school principal was he loved you.   Benny  35:41 I was his favorite. I don't know he was he didn't name favorites, but I was   Stacey Simms  35:44 he was fascinated with diabetes. He was really interesting. I mean, he wasn't he wasn't fascinated, in a weird way. But he just he admired the kids with type one. He really did. I was his favorite. Well.   Benny  35:55 He didn't say   Stacey Simms  35:56 he really admired what you guys were doing. It was interesting. School. Yes, your school counselor was great. He was a good guy. He and he did our 504 plans, we would meet with him to go to the fiber floors and he was he was very nice.   Benny  36:09 He was the guy that like if you got to go into his office, you were one of the cool kids.   Stacey Simms  36:15 We were very lucky to have a great Elementary School. Okay, and has been principal   Benny  36:19 had a lifted red Jeep. Like how much cooler does it get than that? I guess cool was an elementary school. Principal is the eye of the beholder.   Stacey Simms  36:29 has been he had burnout. If So when did he have it? How long did it last? And how did he deal with it?   Benny  36:33 Yes, yes.   Stacey Simms  36:34 Yes. Ever? Yes. So explain.   Benny  36:37 I don't want to do diabetes. Too much work.   Unknown Speaker  36:39 You get that often.   Benny  36:41 Yes. But how do you deal with it? video games?   Unknown Speaker  36:44 Do you just change the subject? Yeah.   Benny  36:46 I find that most of the time I just go Oh, well. It is what it is.   Stacey Simms  36:50 Well, I find it interesting cuz I wouldn't have said you've reached a lot of burnout.   Benny  36:53 Like I have my own opinions about that. I have been able to shoulder shrug a lot of things   Stacey Simms  36:59 like kind of compartmentalize. I don't know what that means, like, put it in the back of your brain and move on with your life. Yeah. So what helps you should play video games? Is that also like, just you're with your friends? Yeah. Do you ever talk to people from Camp or no? Well, you mentioned Justin and Jeffrey early on, is it? Like knowing that they're there? You'd have to call them?   Benny  37:18 I mean, I guess but like, I've never been the kid that's like, and life is terrible. I gotta just like, yeah, it is what it is.   Stacey Simms  37:27 All right, I have two examples that I want to bring up and see how you react. And we don't have to share these two examples. The first is when you were about 10. And you want them to take a pump break. Do you remember that at all? Yeah. What was going on? Like, can you share anything about that?   Benny  37:41 I remember talking to Michael. And like, the pens just seemed a lot easier. But then I was like, wait, there's too much math.   Stacey Simms  37:49 Well, your pump requested about three days, but that's when you started because   Benny  37:51 I was like, wait, there's too much math.   Stacey Simms  37:52 Yeah. And that's when you started giving yourself your own injections. Because you had only used us we don't use syringes. Remember before that, I don't   Benny  37:59 ya Yeah, I remember when I was like four.   Stacey Simms  38:04 And so to switch to an insulin pen seems really scary to you, but you did it, which was awesome. And it's helped us a lot since then there's too much math. Yeah. And there's also too many shots because you'd eat breakfast, then you'd get in the car and want an apple. You'd be like, what I do another shot. But then the other time, I wouldn't call it burnout. But we had I actually wrote about this in the in the book, you had a really bad night, you had a night where everything hurt, your inset hurt your Dexcom hurt. I think you had to do the same night. You're doing both and it was tough. You were really upset about it. And those things happen. I think it's important to acknowledge even for a happy kid like us, that was a terrible night.   Benny  38:40 But tomorrow morning, I was fine. The next morning, tomorrow. Ya know why?   Stacey Simms  38:47 But really can do mine. You don't have to share about it. But can you talk a little bit about?   Benny  38:51 I remember one time, like my incident didn't work like three times and then my Dexcom didn't work like twice. I gave up and I was like, I'll do it. The morning   Stacey Simms  39:02 that was the week that you actually met Rodney, the pan guy who we already mentioned him he was the first question dangling. I love Rodney and, and Colt Scott, the American Ninja Warrior dude. So we met them a couple nights later because we were out to dinner and you didn't talk about the night that you were so upset. But I think don't   Benny  39:20 remember what we talked about. I remember is Ronnie eating a lot. And I was. It was really fun.   Didn't barbecue there too.   Yeah. It was a fun night.   Stacey Simms  39:29 Yeah, but I think that just helps to kind of breathe the same air as other people with diabetes. Even though you've had a crummy night, it helps to be with your people because your mommy is helpful, but only to a certain extent. All right, I don't know that you can answer this question, but this is one of the last ones. Okay. How did you realize like, when did you realize you had diabetes? And how did you feel about it? You know, I can't answer that. I just I've just always had it. This mom says I keep wondering for those who are diagnosed early like my daughter with the healthiest way of thinking about it is and how I can help with that.   Benny  39:58 It's life. What are you going to do?   Stacey Simms  40:00 Well, I think a non 15 year old person answering that question a parent might say, I think that there are ways of explaining it that change, because there's different age appropriate ways of talking about it. When Ben he was teeny tiny right after he was diagnosed, my parents got him a Curious George doll, who we'd love Curious George, and he's just not better. Right. And we thought that he would do like imaginative play, right demo demonstrative play right here. I'm gonna give he did not do that with the curious church, but he did. Oh, yeah. And so Elmo got shots. Elmo had juice boxes, Mo got insets   Benny  40:34 mo love juice boxes,   Stacey Simms  40:35 right Elmo love juice boxes. And that's something that helps kids process that they have diabetes when they're very young. And as he got older, we would read stories, we would tell other people, we did a presentation for your class every year that changed as you got older. And then we started talking about age appropriate stuff. So when you're talking about like independence, what has to be done? When you're talking about driving what has to be done right Later, we'll talk about about when you're living by yourself, right? Well think about it as a parent, how much?   Benny  41:04 It's fine. You guys have no responsibilities,   Stacey Simms  41:08 I'm going to touch on driving just a little, because somebody did ask about that. You're doing really well with driving. But you   Benny  41:14 want to talk about what you have to do before you drive. I checked my Dexcom.   Stacey Simms  41:18 And right, that's it, you check your blood sugar. If you're below 80, you can't drive. That's our simple rule. And we have to make sure there's stuff in the car. And I'll be honest with you, I'm going to make sure that you have low stuff in your car for the first year or two because it's just like anything else. You have to learn. You have to get used to it, they'll be independent. So with driving that's, that's I'm terrified, but not really because of diabetes, but you're pretty good driver,   Benny  41:39 the best   Stacey Simms  41:40 and modest to I am honest,   Benny  41:43 like I'm really modest. All right, and then   Stacey Simms  41:44 do you do any diabetes goals in the next couple of years like are there certain now   Unknown Speaker  42:00 You're listening to diabetes connections with Stacey Sims.   Stacey Simms  42:05 See, Why weren't you about how we are to each other, I can't believe I said, I hate you there at the end. Oh, although I gotta say, Oh my goodness, I am going to play a little bit more at the end of the show the very end so you can understand what I was putting up with for a lot of that interview and some of the stuff that we had to take out, but I hope some of that helped you. I'm also going to link up a few of our previous interviews with Benny, I've talked to him a couple of times on the show. And it's interesting. Not only is his voice changed a lot as you can imagine, but just to hear how things have changed. I'll do that at the episode homepage. There is always a transcription. I have no idea what this transcriptions gonna look like the first time I run it through the computer. That's gonna be fun, but we'll put that there as well. And update. Interestingly, after this interview, he really did agree to stop taking the true Seba. So for the first time in almost two years, we started the trustee but in August of 2018, he is not taking long acting With his pump it because his insulin needs have gone down so much, obviously with the weight loss, but also with puberty. He loves what I talked about that, and I'll keep you posted on how that's going. I'll tell you what, so far what he's not eating. It is amazingly steady just like it has him with Control IQ. It's maybe on average, 10 to 15 points lower. So if he was running at like 110, he's now running at 85, that sort of thing, because just that little bit more control of the algorithm is really helping, at least in the short run. But for the last two days, I swear that kid has forgotten to bolus for every single meal, everything he eats. I don't know what's going on. But I'm trying not to make a big deal about it. We're just gonna move on. We're just gonna remind we're not gonna nag. I'm sure he would say something different. All right. Well, anyway, I'll keep you posted on that, but he really is doing great. And I like that he comes on and talks about diabetes, even if it may not be what I want to hear or I want you to hear something. Tell me something good in just a moment, but first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom when Benny was very little, and in the bathtub or at the pool, I always noticed his fingertips. I mean, you know exactly what I mean, right? When you've got diabetes and you're checking and checking and checking and poking and poking, when your fingertips get wet, somebody in the community called it Franken fingers. They were just full of little pinprick holes that you could really, really see. And you know, he is 15 I don't see his hands too much. Although I did peek when he was looking at the microphone and hanging out in the studio here, studio. Well, it is a studio, it's my office. I noticed and his endo looks at them every single time we go in that they are just normal. They are not those Franken fingers anymore. I mean, we've been using Dexcom for almost six and a half years now. And with every new iteration, we've done fewer and fewer finger sticks. The G six eliminates finger sticks for calibration and diabetes treatment decisions. Just thinking about doing 10 finger sticks a day, which is what we did in the past. I mean that was pretty every day makes me so glad that the Dexcom has helped us come so far. It's An incredible tool. If your glucose alerts and readings from the G six do not match symptoms or expectations, use a blood glucose meter to make diabetes treatment decisions, learn more, go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo.   And tell me something good this week, a quick book update, not my book, but some other terrific books in the diabetes community. And these are books that have been out for a while that are highly recommended. And we all pass them around to each other, but they're getting updates. And I think it's really important because Gosh, think about how much has changed just in the last couple of years. So the first one I want to tell you about is understanding diabetes. This is better known as The Pink Panther book. I still have no idea why the Pink Panther is involved in this. And it's the actual Pink Panther. I mean, they had to have gotten a trademark but if you've seen this book, you know what I'm thinking. This was the first thing I thought when they handed it to me in the hospital. Why is the Pink Panther affiliated here, but that's a mystery for another time, I suppose. Anyway, they're on the 13th edition which you Come get us a discount because the 14th edition is coming out this summer. This is put on by the children's diabetes foundation. I will link this up in the show notes so that you can order a new book, let your endo know as well, if they're interested and it does come in Spanish. It is also available in an ebook form in a Kindle, so you can get them in lots of different ways. The Pink Panther books, the mystery continues though as to why that character How do they get the trademark anyway? All right, the next book is think like a pancreas, which is a must have, in my opinion, A Practical Guide to managing diabetes with insulin. Gary doesn't need my seal of approval here he is already the number one new release in nutrition and medical health sciences on Amazon. But I think this is really important because I recommend this book all the time. And this is the newest update for it. It's a paperback and an E textbook. And as the description says the all in one comprehensive resource for the millions of people living with diabetes who use insulin. The updates here include, as you would expect new medications, new technologies, injection devices, dietary recommendations. We've had Gary on the show many times he describes himself as a human guinea pig, because he lives with type one and he tries all of these devices, but he also talks about the science behind them in ways that I think is really clear. If you've listened to my interviews with Gary, you know, I generally feel kind of like a goofball. When I talk to him, he's very calming as well. If you haven't gotten this book before, highly recommended. If you have and you're looking for the update, probably the textbook is your best bet and I will link that up in the show notes as well. And finally, and tell me something good, lots of graduations to celebrate. Of course they're not the usual graduations people got very creative with how to celebrate their kids this year, but I know a lot of you were hoping for bigger ceremonies and more tradition. I want to take a moment to highlight just one of the many valedictorians that were spotlighted in some of these Facebook groups that I saw Jeremy bright was valedictorian and thank you so much to his parents for letting me share his story. Jeremy was diagnosed with type one at age 14 and he has a scholarship to Florida Polytechnic University to study computer science this fall. And once Jeremy's parents posted about him in this Facebook group, several other people chimed in with my tea Wendy is a valedictorian as well and you know, they kind of went and listed a few other kids didn't get permission to share their names and or their stories and and that's okay, but I think it's great that so many kids are at least getting the credit that they're due for working so hard through high school I don't know about you guys but it seems sometimes that for these kids I know the workload on my daughter High School was almost worse than college maybe it's just the pressure of you know, they have to do so well and I tried to eat that off for my daughter, but man it is hard when all the high schools are telling them you know, take this class get this college credit all these tests AC t sad. Oh, all right, just a little bit of editorial on my part and we shall see Right with all the wackiness that's happening this year with some colleges not you know, counting the standardized tests, we'll see what happens going forward. But anyway, congratulations to these great kids. If you have a Tell me something good story, please let me know you can reach out Stacy at Diabetes connections.com post in the Facebook group, you know, send a carrier pigeon, whatever it takes. I would love to feature your child or you in our Tell me something good segment.   Before I let you go, it's worth noting that we are right at the five year anniversary of the podcast I had Episode 300. A couple weeks ago, I made a bigger deal about that. The five year milestone is something I'm sure I'll mark on social media and talk about a little bit but I'm bringing it up here because well first of all, I can't believe it's been five years. I can't believe that I'm still doing this. I didn't have a timeline in mind when I started the podcast but I don't think I thought five years later I'd still be doing it and loving it as much as I do and it would still be growing but I bring it up because If you're listening to this point in the show, then you are a true listener. And I appreciate that. And I would urge you to please join the Facebook group Diabetes Connections, the group, I'm going to be doing some polling in the next couple of weeks. I'm not sure what we're going to do with the podcast in 2021. And I know it's a little bit early to start thinking about it. But I plan for the next year. I mean, in terms of sponsors, let's be frank, I usually have all that sewn up by August or September. And I don't want to be in a situation where I decide to make some changes. And then I'm scrambling at the end of the year. So I'm going to be asking questions like you know, frequency length, what do you want to hear? I think after five years, it's time to take a tough look at this like a hard look at it and decide what do we really want to do? Where are we going with this right? And if it stays the same, fantastic. I love doing it. But if there's something that you would prefer to hear, you know, maybe it's all technology news, maybe we go once every two weeks, but we only do news updates, that sort of thing. Maybe you really like the personal stories and we stay with that we do a mix. Maybe we make up Longer show a shorter show, you know, there's lots of options. But I want to hear from you. So please watch for surveys over the next couple of weeks. But you got to be in that group. I'm not going to make these public. I don't want people who don't listen weighing in. I mean, come on. And I really can't thank you enough, five years later, to have as much fun as I'm having and to keep doing this and hearing from people who enjoy it. That's the best. Thank you as always, to my editor john Buchanan's from audio editing solutions for making sense of this week's interview and everything else that he does. And thank you so much for listening. I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here next week. Until then, be kind to yourself.   Unknown Speaker  51:41 Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Sims media. All rights reserved. All rounds avenged   Stacey Simms  52:04 You can you can take that to your room when we are done.   Unknown Speaker  52:09 Disgusting.   Unknown Speaker  52:11 No, take it with you Why? And I   Stacey Simms  52:13 have a place to put it or leave it over there because I'm going to throw it away. If I well why would I keep it I take that two places with me like here. Let me interview with a man with a microphone that's been inside my son's mouth. I think you would love it especially in this day and age.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Working 2050 is a speculative oral history about workers of the future. "It's nice to make boxes. But... it's a niche, not my passion." Thanks to Molly Pease for providing the voiceover. Show Notes and Transcript: NK Guin lives in a cooperative outside of Oak Lawn. She’s lived in the short term dormitory for 4 years: “I guess I just like bunk beds.” We met in the dorm’s kitchen: “I don’t really know why I became an artist. When I was 10 my dad put my art capstone for 4th grade on all of his social channels. It was an artisan project: a really big deal for me, I’d spent months working on it, but nothing special, a 3D printed reclaimed mahogany box inlaid with silver. Special for a kid artist, not special for an artist artist. I was a cute kid and the box was pretty nice, so I viraled for a minute, like anything with a cute kid with an out of the ordinary talent does. I was reaching 2, maybe 3 million people at one point -- so my dad helped me set up my own channel -- an editorial calendar, microniches, keywords, a shop with sales items. There was a high demand for more wooden boxes like the type I made for my project, it didn’t matter to the buyers if they were 3D printer or not. So I started mass producing those, managing my own channel, taking art and marketing courses, and… here I am today. What is your typical day like? It’s pretty much the same every day. Wake up, read through all the comments on my channels from the night before. Answer all the shopping and community comments. Schedule some posts for the next few days. Make some videos, answer some questions about the boxes on live video. Make boxes. Go to bed. What do you like to do for fun? Every now and then I’ll have some free hours, I’ll walk around outside. Be in nature. I like to write poetry, when I have time for that. Do you ever think about switching over to that? Making more nature or poetry oriented work? It’s not really my niche, you know? A lot of other producers are doing that, it’s a pretty competitive track. It would be hard to shift gears. [Awkward silence]. I mean, I made a box with a tree on it a couple of months ago. Check it out. [he projected an image of the box onto their projected home screen]. I mean… it’s cool, right? It’s a beech tree. For a while they weren’t sure if they were going to be any of these left in Illinois. Really? Yeah! Why? Oh… That’s all I know about it. Is the box made of beech? Oh… no. It’s way cheaper to buy red pine. And people don’t care what kind of wood the box is made out of, as long as it’s wood. Do you like what you do all day? I mean… who does? I’m not trying to save the world or anything. It’s not my passion -- it’s my niche. We all have different niches. My niche isn’t about teaching people how to build better sanitation systems, or stopping pandemics. My niche is that I build boxes. “ Reading/Resources: The Passion Economy, Instructables.com,

Summary: On this episode, you will learn about the Secure Act and how it affects your retirement plan and your future. You will also this get this month's real estate market updates. simplepassivecashflow.com/investorletter simplepassivecashflow.com/green10 simplepassivecashflow.com/alf simplepassivecashflow.com/lendmistakes simplepassivecashflow.com/dentist simplepassivecashflow.com/2020-launchWebsite link: https://reialoha.com/videos-articles/Start learning about real estate investing - SimplePassiveCashflow.com/startSubscribe to the Top-50 Investing Free Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/simple-passive-cashflow/id1118795347_________________________Top SimplePassiveCashflow Posts:This website has been going through daily improvements everyday since 2016. I admit things are a bit all over the place as I learn about these investments and wealth tactics. 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But anyway, as usual, we're going to start off with our first month of 2020 median single family home prices didn't do much in terms of changing at $770,000. But on the condo prices, we did see an uptick of almost 8% $229,000. That's like slightly under $400. From prior year, January. So that's a pretty big jump. That's for1:17 the year, right? Not month over month. No,1:19 this is actually month over month. Huge man. Yeah, that is that is and year every year to there was an uptick also, especially in volume for 2019 versus 20. At night, that would have been a good thing to talk about too. But um, there was a 2019 was actually a very robust year for a wahoo investors or real estate owners. Yeah, so very healthy real estate economy. Really good. You think that seven and a half percent on Oh, that's kind of a big deal. Yeah.1:49 Just like who knows, right?1:51 Yeah, I mean, we could we could chalk it up to the building, you know, Kakaako stuff, but like you said, it could be just like a hit. up, it's very generalizer because we're talking all of all. So that's the challenge in terms of trying to pinpoint it on one single thing. Yeah, but I'm close sales, we see a very big upswing on both sides both went up almost 8%, or single family at 265, close sales for the month and then 16% increase it 379 close sales for condos. The interesting side of this is that the last rule the third rule, where it's kind of contrary to the first two stats were median days on market for both single family and condos got slower at slower to 35 days for single family and 60 slore to 33 days market for condos. Now we're going over the one month mark, I guess you could see us that's kind of big. So I'm very interested to see what's going to happen next month because I look at the median days on market is more like the leading indicator versus the other stats. Like I did the last few months I've been trying to simplify it because he talked about the numbers, yada yada yada so picking a winner for January 20. 20 sellers or buyers and the winner are the few sellers3:06 dramatics I all right3:08 so I mean yeah overall with the prices going up like you said lean with that on the condo side jumping up so high overall we gotta go with the price increases the main reason for and the volume for that matter for sellers being the winner for January changing over to some new information so on Oahu for the high central multiple listing service, we started something new and it's this coming soon status that's now available instead of you have active we have in escrow showing in escrow not showing and sold. So now we have this new status called coming soon. That started just January this past January 2020. So what it allows listeners and agents to do is to almost like to pre list your place for sale and you can do it up to 30 days before you actually go live within active listening is relatively new. So what we're seeing is ism. You can use it if you know your network. Ready to go live yet maybe a tenant is checking out or you know, not transitioning out or you're still trying to do some repairs to get it ready or you haven't gotten it staged or whatnot. So while you're in transition high central is now allowing us to pre listed with this coming soon status. And I can see potential benefits in using this status for both my sellers as well as my buyers. And I say potential because I think it's not really being used because it's relatively new. So as of last night, I think there are only 24 coming soon listings on all of wahoo. So I think once people start using it the way it was intended to I think there's potential The way I see it, and again, this new but it would be like pocket listings, where you might be able to be in contract before you even list the property. So it could potentially saving money for sellers. You know, you don't want to put in the new carpet because this potential buyer reached out and negotiate something with the price. That's how I see it. And I've been trying that with my others now and we'll see how it goes. So if you guys are in anyone's interested in how this could help you guys hit me up you guys know how to reach me you know other cool stuff5:06 try nothing better nothing better to do right then5:09 we're trying to you know I'm trying to be progressive right and training for Harvard can't help my clients save money so I'm not sure 40 hour week day job part time real estate agent on the side anymore.5:21 You know that you know that like the coming soon like you would think like you put it on there you just gonna have a lot of bottom feeders just throwing you junk offers right so you get the free list price. So you're desperate. Yeah. Are5:34 they seeing if the sellers does?5:36 Okay, I could see that as a potential but I also see it as say you have a potential buyer looking in complex that they really want to buy in so they have an auto mailer that will send them any active or coming soon inventory that pops up so they get it now you have this information and the buyer really wants it and you know, the CO we discuss it's been it's been a strong seller's market for so long that buyers in certain areas. I mean in certain price points they're losing out because some multiple offer situation and so it could potentially have buyers being able to not necessarily sneak in but get a jump on a potential listing and potentially talk to the other side and see if he can strike up a deal and save money on both sides because like I said, maybe the seller is prepping it all we're going to change the cabinets or we have to redo the flooring because it's totally messed up but you could have a potential buyer who's like, Hey, you know what, I'll take it as is because I know the bones in this building are going to be good and it'll cost me at most five grand to do the flooring or something and I'm fine with that because I lost our last few times on my offers on this building and I can't wait any longer so it could not necessarily I mean like you said there's potential for like low ballers go bother investors or whatever. But then if that's the case, you just wait till it gets listed right? So it gives sellers more options. If anything,6:51 I can feel it could hurt you like if you're listening my condo in here, right? And we're going to market we're on market for like a few weeks already. At the Soccer comes on coming through and right. And then he blows our this thing out of the water. It just makes more competition7:06 for selling right, potentially. Right. I mean, that's but then again, he's listing it coming soon for a reason he's not ready to go live. So yeah, like you said it gives way to more competition from the standpoint of your no sooner before it comes on. And so it's just more of a transparent market, I guess. Yeah.7:23 Yeah. I wonder and whenever they have something new like this, there's all kinds of loopholes, right. And people always trying to gain the system. I wonder if you can put something on coming soon. Take it off, put it back on 45 days, take it off, put it on and find out right. Yeah, right. You're gonna try that one? Yeah. The7:42 husband chose getting smart today change certain rules to get around the loopholes to like Nicole, you said if someone didn't want to show the cumulative diesel market because they temporarily pulled it off and on. So it's a dynamic process. And I think,7:55 yeah, you're not trying to cheat. You're not playing by the rules, not for your client. Right. Right. Right. Hey baseball, fields zine business8:03 when you borrow money,8:04 so that transition to our next topic, which is associations in the news. So I think last month, we talked about how our association dues maintenance fees, it's not that they're totally sunk costs, we're getting value for what paying right in terms of deferred maintenance, saving the funds in reserve to do capital improvements, like roofing, elevators, things like that. So I was trying to talk about the good side of association fees. And so last week, in the news, there was kikki johannah. tower that came out maybe eight months ago, like last year, and this is reserved housing majority of it was reserved housing. But just recently, I think in the last week, they announced that they're going to increase their maintenance fees as much as 50%. And that's mainly because the common area operating costs like electricity in the common area and labor to maintain the grounds were under estimated when the first set the fees. So now of course rate, if euro by the body months, I'd be up in arms too. So now they're trying to figure out how they can try to reduce these costs and therefore not increase the fees. So much. So, and this is on the flip side of the association fees, it can kind of hurt you, right? So, and again, this was reserved housing. So like a two bedroom condo was was going for, like 500,000. So they're getting very reasonable deal. And of course, you know, they have to qualify for it. And this is in the heart of Kakaako. So it's prime urban sprawl prime living so lucky for them, I mean, the prices unlucky for them is Association fee hikes and feel for9:36 them, but what you can do right, so I just wanted to talk about that a little bit in terms of the good bad and the ugly of association fees. And most people like think condos are cheaper, right pricing there is but then you got this implied fixed costs going on and potentially variable costs in the future.9:52 Yeah. And the thing too, is that one had mixed use,9:54 you know, down below was on the lobby was9:58 CVS, right. So you think that would offset some of the coming era costs but friendly not so. Oh anyway next I wanted to give another update on corage development again this is a neighborhood that's coming up in between is pro city and Mililani and YPO jenji so I spoke to my contacts of our castle and cookin basically, sales were pushed back to q2 of this year. I think initially the last time I had spoken to them it was beginning of this year sales are q1 sales are supposed to start and with the first delivery or people moving in the end of this year, so there's no change to that and if you live in the area, you'll see that they are starting a lot of work and it's evident along the fringes along the the South Side especially as driving by Kamehameha Highway st able to take some pictures. So I just want to show you some of the update if you're familiar with the Kamehameha Highway and public storage here by the industrial area on the right hand side of the poster just do now in cultural center. So you can see their masquerading they're opening up this is actually going to be I think One of the south entrance and my understanding is they're starting construction of the houses on this is south entrance I'm serious might have a few more pictures on it to show how they're making it nice and pretty with shining gruesome grass along this grading here I used to make all the neighbors happy right? So here this red I was pointing to exactly where I took those pictures. So if you see that's the southern portion. Here's a Google Maps picture to give you an idea of what it looks like now again, it's all farm area. So all those plots of farmland are going to be houses and all along the h2 freeway. So at the top, they're supposed to be one big on ramp, I think if you So yeah, I just want to give an update on corage. If anybody wants more information or wants me to keep them in the loop on what's going on, feel free to reach out to me11:43 no pricing on that stuff.11:44 They won't say it's all going to be market priced. When11:48 is it like nicer than Makkah, or nicer the couple,11:52 I have to think it's going to be above Malka in terms of the rate. That's it. I mean, it's Don't get me wrong. They're gonna have all different types of gear. They're gonna have Tom houses they're going to have their industrial this was to be elementary school there's gonna be retail but the housing I'm sure it's going to be like how they develop you know anytime in the middle any market rate or the start building at the bottom and then as they go up especially like the Millennium aka those perimeter lots closer to the top and the edges are all the high end more more custom type homes. So if I had to guess it would be like a similar strategy right12:23 because when Kapil a and all the other villages came out it was lower than milania stuff. Right?12:28 Right, right. I mean, you can also think about geographically they're a lot further out west and hopefully this year is going to be cooler like milania Why Why is12:38 higher median income demographic wise?12:41 Yeah. And it's in theory, you know, it's it's closer to town, but further from capoeira, the second city.12:50 Where do you live out here?12:54 And that's partly why I took pictures too is I'm curious to see how this is going to pan out because I live Milani town right? Yeah. And the order set of Mililani13:03 yeah pumping that medium income up for everybody. taxes so you guys mainland investing check out my podcast simple passive cash flow and the local group Aria Aloha. Join our meetup there and the Facebook page but I'm gonna run through a bunch of headlines this one that people from Hawaii really like this Las Vegas news. You know where that is, if you look at that picture, Dean, I'm no I don't know if you've been to Vegas a dozen times but yeah, so this little sliver that you probably bought by your drive by is getting sold. So that'll be changing hands here soon, but some real notice here. So in case you guys didn't realize, but the US government stole a whole bunch of money from you guys this past month, the secure act you probably never heard of it. But it's pretty big deal with this came about if you recall, like the government shut down and this was governance that was put into act to make sure that that the economy can Going by the government kept working. And it's a way of they've harvested funds from taxpayers, essentially, they got rid of the stretch IRA, here are some other changes that are a little less taxing on people, they increase the age for minimum required minimum distributions, the 72, or we call rmds. But here's the biggest thing that not a lot of people realize you're like a stretch IRA Dean, before if your parents died, and they had an IRA, you could inherit it, and you could withdraw it or take it as taxable income pretty much for a long time. But now they said, All right, we got rid of those, you only have 10 years to do it. So essentially, if you your accounting guy or numbers guide, the government just slid a whole bunch of money up in the next 10 years that they can get their hands on,14:47 because they want their income taxes on it.14:48 Yeah, and this is why I don't like retirement accounts because they always do this stuff to us. I mean, not not me anymore. I don't have any of this stuff. There's exemptions for this. So like if you pass away and you're serving You have a surviving spouse, children under the age of 10. disabled or chronically ill this doesn't apply to you but for 99.99% of people out there, you got to pay up you got to take it as income and pay the government your taxes because they want it. And, you know, this is just an example of what happens when you have certain people in office right? It changes like if you call when Clinton was in presidency, it was pretty nasty. You had to the inheritance tax if you had a state bigger than $600,000 you got a tax and anything more than that now it's like 4,000,005 million. It's pretty I know, we never know if the surviving spouse exemption is going to go away stuff changes. So yeah, you know, you guys votes matter leave it at that. I caught multifamily markets in 2020 they're saying small metros are and suburbs are where to look for rent control makes a comeback as housing crisis grows. Late last year, we saw three states passing new laws in 2019 limiting or rent increases. Yo if you Buying and blue states this is what happens. They're talking about that over here too. I like to follow the U haul trends it kind of follows the workforce blue collar workers it's what I personally invest in. So these are where the top growth cities in 2019 a lot of North Carolina a lot in Florida, Texas, Idaho, there's a Manhattan than there and much Alabama's and there's sin there's Anderson Nevada, I put this on here then I realized maybe the city's isn't the best way I'd rather see it marma state level or MSA level director indicator and then you know, I like the U haul because this is where the people like I said blue collar I mean I used to use u haul but Van Lines is a similar report that is more for white collar workers. You know when they get moved their company usually relocates them16:46 immigration trends of your potential tenants. Right right.16:49 Man conservation easements we talked about this last time what it is, but if you didn't catch that one, what this is is for guys making over $350,000 A year when you get above that threshold, you're going to get killed on taxes. So what a lot of credit investors would like to do is they'll donate money in the form of land conservation easement to get a taxable deduction. But unlike when you donate $500 to the self initiative harmony when you donate $1 To a land conservation easement, you get $5 around their donation or taxable deduction.17:25 And this is also one that's buyer beware too, though, right?17:28 Yeah. So it's getting a lot of unpopular attention and Congress as it should, because it's a head scratcher, right?17:34 Until you just the one that my CPA had told me that IRS are kind of cracking down on the industry and the shady ones, at least.17:41 Yeah, yeah. So like what a lot of developers would like to do like golf courses will designate an area as land conservation easement and then sell it to investors and then they'll donate the land essentially, but the head scratching part is like how they increase the value of the property about five times as they're donated value. You know, some of these guys are calling it 510 20 times more and that's when you're kind of getting a little greedy but we're in a holding pattern right now. You need to do it talk to your professionals but a lot of my clients are kind of in a holding pattern doing this stuff, at least waiting till the Department of Justice and the Congress battled this out markets with the largest rent growth and largest rent decrease. So on the top there, we showed this last time, but Midland Odessa, Honolulu had the was ranked number two across the nation as a decrease in percent change in rents. That's not a good thing. Well, I guess depends what side of the table you are right? Right. You know, I'm a renter. That's true. What do you think like if I came the landlord and I was like, Well, here's this data. Can I get like a 1% or 2% decrease in my rent? I wonder what happened? I doubt it. Scranton, Lafayette Lake Charles rounds up the top five of the bad boy list. Decreasing rents but where's it hot? It's Pensacola Phoenix Huntsville, Las Vegas and Portland, Maine. There you are Victor ideon and Las Vegas19:09 and used to enhance story19:10 Yeah, we'll see what happens in a recession who's19:15 got my my19:17 Amazon created this 1.4 million square foot Florida project around Huntsville. But I put in this here it's a little bit of fake news because it's only 500 new full time positions in this fulfillment center usually you're looking for you know, in especially in a tertiary market of like 100,000 population 500 jobs isn't that big of a deal I'll be when you get to a range of one to 2000 that's a little bit more newsworthy in my opinion19:44 would also depend on like the current trend in their economy Nick if we talking about like Detroit or something or they're depressed and in something like this comes about it's bomb to jack it up a whole bunch radiances and taking it is comes with a grain of salt from that standpoint, too.19:59 Yeah. just seemed like the these newspapers just need to make headlines right and yeah, Amazon is a big name. Oh yeah, of course realtor.com and they came out with this 2020 housing forecasts, they said that the mortgage rates will go up by the end of the year to 3.88%. I would argue itself pretty steady anyway. Yeah, average median home price will go up by 2%. existing home sales or volume will go down 1.8% and single family housing starts will go up 6% but I'm, as we'll talk later, it will be much less than the growth rate. There's still a housing shortage, Millennials will make up 46% of the mortgage origination up from 43% last year you working with any millennials? I am Are they the old kind? Or is it like no, no kind of young? Yeah, sometimes you can have a 40 year old millennial to Oh yeah, I got Jason some of this data they, they love, they love like weird ages sometimes. And so They21:00 said You mean mindset? Oh, yeah that too.21:05 We can talk a little bit more about that. We got a slide on that later. Okay. Us monthly volume and pricing trends by sector it for years. You guys listening on the podcast and by the way we have a podcast now Hey, watch this while doing chores for your spouse, and you give massages while you're listening to podcasts. You can listen in 2.0 speed touring. Yeah, a lot faster. Or you can just watch this on the YouTube and just watch the words that we're going to read. But we have some graphs on here on the office, industrial retail and apartment trends. Howard Hughes spends half a billion dollars in Houston on the are narco petroleum and conical Philips old headquarters down there in Seattle, their office employment is going way up. And it makes sense because that workforce space is very tech21:54 oriented. Your old stomping grounds.21:57 Yeah, they don't work out there in the field. Like their offices, largest employer by state, so I have a picture of all the states out there and their biggest employer, Hawaii is alterus Industrial you ever heard what is that?22:11 That's, um, that's outsourcing work. That's labor outsourcing. So that's super interesting. I think,22:17 what is that? Like? What do they do22:19 they outsource work, like, if you need, like a secretary or temp secretary or you need admin clerics like that, then you hire them. I think if that's all just that I thinking of my old employer, we went through them to hire a admin assistant22:32 temporarily. Do they pick from the local workforce? Are they like hiring people out in the mainland?22:37 It was local. Yeah.22:39 I don't know if that's a good thing or not.22:43 No, that's interesting. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's cheaper to go through a third party and you're just paying them an hourly set fee and you have to worry about HR and HR and retirement and medical benefits and stuff. Yeah. So I mean, that's just it's not like outsourcing to India or anything, but if that's True. That's convention that's super interesting23:02 little Nevada where Las Vegas is their highest employer is MGM resorts and everywhere in the south Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, I think that's Virginia and everything we're in the middle is Walmart.23:22 It's even more interesting. I didn't23:23 know that Montana and Wyoming are Walmart to say oh, I work for Walmart you're part of the union or tribe. So I buy mostly BNC class apartments but I kind of look over the fence that the a class stuff from time to time and some of the new amenities you're seeing in a class apartments luxury stuff or like the Hilton bikes peloton. Yeah, you own I love I did not I did not have one in this next year.23:49 It seems really cool. I like it's funny because I was talking to my wife about you know, I really want to I like the rubric just sizes because I like the energy and then he sometimes any Somebody to push me so this is I guess the next best thing right? Because you're at home you have screen either you're watching a pre recorded video or you're live with people yeah, suddenly it's the next best thing then then being at 24 Fitness or24:12 you should check out the the the mirror is in that thing. No, it's like a mirror. That's a mirror but it's also a screen so you can see yourself and watch the person to imitate them. And you can you24:24 Oh, that's actually kind of powerful for like, yeah, dancing so I can see a very applicable24:30 Yeah, but maybe it's just motivating or unwilling to see yourself.24:35 Well, unless it's like makes you look thinner or something then maybe you can bend the outs, words, insights that makes you look thinner.24:41 Yeah, I said I'm thinking or, you know, on the smartphones, yeah, makes your complexion look24:47 nicer, make you work harder. You got a larger gap to fill. I have a graph of this isn't the stock market. This is the US market divided by GDP. So we are right at the 2000 Level year 2000 Oh Macy's my wife loves Macy's Don't worry guys they're not closing they're closing 30 stores across the nation by our beloved one in forage and all the water is here to stay25:17 but the question is for how long range yeah25:19 and across the nation other stores here one are closing down and bows that makes our Bose headphones that allow us to drown out the rest of humanity is going out of business and crying babies on the plane. Yeah. Do you know what Five Below is there to know? What's that? Well, if you go out to the middle of nowhere America, there's these five below. They're like discount retailers. It's like 99 cent store but $5 and below Okay, okay. Yeah, I didn't know either. I walked into one because I thought it was a frozen yogurt place when I was like visiting some properties. Okay, like, Oh, this isn't for you here. Maybe25:55 stuck. You want to watch in a downward economy?25:58 Yeah, in the other session. Yeah, the dollar to Family Dollar went did real good. I remember that26:04 $750 million Ponzi scheme from the income store. So I did a podcast with another gentleman who buys websites. And what they do is they fix it up virtually right? they'll create content, they'll increase SEO, and they'll increase the net operating income essentially and then sell it but I guess what the income the income store I don't really know if I know what it did. You guys can look it up on your own. But it was a place where you can buy and sell these websites, but they turned out to be a scam. Was he telling me about26:35 the income start? No, no.26:38 No, yeah. This is why he did like this, right. They26:42 can work from wherever. Yeah, no, I said you mean you help these guys out and he's accomplished.26:48 But this was a big I think a lot of people went to this website. All right, let's beat up on the millennials now or this case, medium age of homebuyers is now 47 years old. Can you believe that used to be in the 1980 era, medium age of homebuyers in the United States was 31 years old. And in the last 40 years, it's gone up to 47 millennial share of the US housing market is small and shrinking. So the little graph of where the baby boomers were at and then the Generation X people, yeah, Gen X or Yeah,27:26 Mm hmm. Well, what I was curious about is the last stat is like, I'm assuming that that's all owner occupied. So like, what about guys like you are renting but using your money to invest you fall on as a non buyer, Daniel?27:38 Yeah. Or it's like other statistics on unemployment, where they like phone people, but how do you measure all the people who are pissed off and they don't want to answer that too, because they're out of work?27:49 Yeah. Well, yeah. And the dare say that the unemployment rate is is very skewed to because it's excludes the unemployed who have totally stopped for a long time now.27:58 Yeah. People get up, right? Yeah, right.28:01 It's good also that the statistics are skewed in that sense, and including the ones that are continuing to try to apply for jobs legitimately or illegitimate. Right?28:11 collect unemployment rate. So there's ways to not be in that number. So that's deceiving, I think when you guys are looking for houses to sell, but there's a recent trend in CO showering and multi generational houses, and I read this one article, and it kind of showed all these things and that's what I picked out. I don't know if it's literally people are coming together to save money, but I do know like a property that was built in the 1980 or 1990s. So not too old. Well, what we're going to do on that is we're going to get rid of the tubs and put in a new column luxury shower, but you know, it's not that expensive. People would rather have a shower than a tub will get a $50 rent increase for that.28:52 I know of people who get a single family and chop it up two rooms or even like little cubicles, and it's almost Like not a youth hostel per se but they're renting out the room and then they have shared kitchen and bath and they're all individual usually singles in a maid military or doctor or residence or something and then they don't mind this need a place to sleep and they don't mind sharing kitchens and the bathroom with other people they don't know and then they end up getting to know them so it's almost like a long term Airbnb, I guess. I don't know how else to explain it. But in that sense, yeah, the landlords happy because you're you're collecting way more than you would if you're just renting to one single family long term and we can see he totally handle your vacancies very because if one person leaves and it's like one out of five or one out of seven, so29:35 I went through I said it on a pitch for this guy. He was doing an app and it's like crowd surfer but he was like exactly what you said the long term renters but they just want a room. He was telling me all these nightmares that would have initially right when they first started out they had to make it was the same sex or because obviously you know the issues with that with it and I think they gave the people free Netflix. subscription because they found out if they're just on their phones all the time or watching Netflix that there's little interaction and that's where the problems of the company is when tenants interact. So if you keep them at their problem,30:15 that's their reality, right? They're watching the Netflix and that's where their world is at. So, right the outside world is there in their matrix.30:23 Another trend Hilton is launching a new lifestyle brand called Temple by Hilton. It is designed to appeal to ambitious modern traveler I needed glasses I thought that said women travelers for strategy strategies for 2020 success in the classroom multi speaks to the first one was new markets so getting out of places that everybody has been talking about for the last half a decade Dallas, Texas since everybody's looking there and everybody knows it's a good market tech so they said like old tri news be I'm not gonna say her name a LEX a because things will start to happened if I say that word here or other forms of technology in the apartments, treat your employees? Well, a lot of these places, the employees, the office staff and the handyman workers are on salary as opposed to paying your tenants or you're paying your property manager certain percentage primarily. And then different regulations. As we said, you know, the rent control Diem, did you know that in 2025, there will be more people turning 65 than babies being born.31:27 I did not know that. They are doing the assisted living. But yeah.31:32 That's like everybody talks about that thing. And it's man, are you looking for something super hard and difficult where you haven't owned a property31:40 for high liability? Yeah, well, I mean, if you talk about trend, I mean, that makes it spot on right, that hits that heartstring right there in terms of telling me where to look. So maybe it's not that maybe it's things that he's 65 year olds are going to be using31:55 that type of market my buddy he does venture m&a is like the cool way of saying it but merger acquisitions. But you have all these older people who have built businesses and obviously haven't really employed the best technology and systems and practices but just created with hard work, right? Good old fashioned business sense, but they're unable to sell the business. So mergers and acquisitions is a good way to play that I think is you take a business like a restaurant or an insurance practice, or like a dentist franchise, and you buy it. I think that's a better way to play it.32:28 That makes sense. I've seen that too. Like in the accounting world on the CPA world, a lot of CPAC start off the work for the big four are being backed into the big six and then you know, they find out they want to be entrepreneurial, or do you want you don't want to be partner here. They want to work on their own. So they open up their own practice. And then by nature, it grows because they get more and more clients and then they call you said they're hiring employees who are good at doing the work. But when it comes time to succession planning to hand it on, even their children don't want to take it over. So what do you do now? Right, so I've heard great stories of operatives. Ladies like that, I guess you could say for the small practices that don't have a plan, it is great. I mean seems to be like a win win. Because usually, if the agreement works out, the employees are retained and the management company gets company to take over with more volume and more actually adds a different niche to the larger companies that might have had larger clients.33:21 Yeah, it's definitely interesting, right? The phrase that's always said is who is the person that has the keys here, right, if that CPA leaves or retires business is going to fall apart? Yeah, that's why you don't want to buy that business. But there's always a way to keeping that person on retainer and making their buyout contingent on X amount of clients thing.33:40 And a lot of times you know, it's not to say that the partners are irreplaceable and they are facing the challenges like you said, you need a smooth transition because of course you're gonna have attrition rate. So the plan is you just make sure in your that m&a deal when you're pricing it out, which is usually based on digicash rules is that you're you're taking to account if you're on the buying side that the attrition you follow34:00 You want to do is retire and play pickleball three four times a week then why get into all that stuff?34:06 Yeah. Where do you play pickup on case people want to hang out with you?34:11 I started off playing in Mililani town there's a we have a recreation rec center three and so there's eight dedicated courts so if you're not come by hit me up. I'll go all over the island though you guys want to play? I love Ilene honestly, it's a great sport. It's one of the fastest growing and young guys are getting into too. I think a 21 year old professional came down from the mainland he stopped by and we got to experience some pro to corporate flying artists Honestly, I do enjoy it. I laugh about it initially. This is an old fox game and it's kind of dorky and stuff but I'm enjoying it a lot.34:45 I well, while you're doing that, I would say hundreds of thousands or millions of employees are trying to race for the spiky thing in corporate America. Somebody right now is working his 14th or 16th hour needs to go home and sleep for four hours. Before coming back35:01 Super Bowl commercials on it right to rice and anything35:04 yeah another statistic I was at this family office meeting and they're talking about how in that slide to the right is how energy storage is has changed and will change before it was a power plants to the houses and then now we got all the solar panels and maybe the solar panels might feed outwards eventually but the other statistic was in 2026 the cars will they'll be more electric cars than gas cars35:31 I thought by then don't be hundred percent. I mean, a lot of manufacturers are saying bye. I thought it was a 10 years they're gonna be out of production for Dynamo fields are gonna be easy. I thought there are shifting you have people already off the grid with some battery storage.35:46 I think I'm going to buy that Tesla truck. Really? Yeah, that's gonna be a couple years I still gotta drive my car. So next headline here housing market following short by nearly 4 million houses as demand grows. So as much as you see housing prices going up, the demand is going up much faster vacancy rates have been going down over the past decade and home ownership vacancy has gone down slightly also. And I think that's at the end here. I do my little book report to you, Dean. I've been reading this book willpower doesn't work by Ben Hardy. Did you36:21 tell me about that? I bought it from the library. You read it? I think I skimmed it, but I had to return it by the time go talk about it. I need to hear what you get to36:29 see. Well, that's exactly why willpower doesn't work. You don't need the damn book.36:33 Oh, it's because I didn't take the distractions out right? Because isn't that what it is in the whole premises because we'll Park doesn't work you need to take all the distractions out of your life so that you can focus in on the things you gotta do. You know, these36:44 books are just kind of space fillers, right? Half of it is you're a human being you're not a machine, right? And I already kind of know that. But then the other half of the book are things like you said, and then creating systems to set yourself up for success which you36:59 are The master of lean and let's say you can't make any37:02 systematic changes this past month I can steal37:07 no nothing earth shattering I still gotta keep on looking back at my vision board and for me it's the passion is still the real estate sales but one thing that I've had to refocus on his power talking about like he said to be able to play pickleball as they still want to increase my investment portfolio my real estate my buy and hold real estate portfolio so that means I need to increase my deal flow from that standpoint so that I haven't been I've been working more on the real estate sales side and helping others out so you got to step back and help yourself on to me the real estate sales part is the fun part and I enjoy that and passionate about that but I need to also step back and own a build my deal flow because I also have my own personal investing goals set for the year on my vision board. So I got to relook at that I guess yeah,37:53 buy another cup of health if you can play four times a week. That's a part of it right rewards setting rewards for yourself. Yeah, I think that's what they talked on this book too.38:03 Okay, yeah, we're gonna travel the world with you to link one of these days.38:07 Have some fun. This is the part where we talk about the legal disclaimer and you're not giving any legal tax or investment advice relationship advice, advice that's it and hope you guys liked it check out the YouTube channel and join ariella Hall comm check us out there and anything else for the folks there, Dean. Oh, just keep on keepin on. All right. Take it easy, everybody. Bye. Bye.38:37 Three real estate investing you check out our e i aloha.com.Transcribed by https://otter.ai See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Dr. Hayes interviews Dr. DeVita about his role as Director of NCI and his time with CHOP and MOPP.   TRANSCRIPT [MUSIC PLAYING] The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. [MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the role of cancer care. You can find all of the shows, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. Welcome to Cancer Stories. I'm Dr. Daniel Hayes. I'm a medical oncologist and a translational researcher at the University of Michigan Rogel Cancer Center. And I'm the past president of ASCO. I'm really privileged to be your host for a series of podcast interviews with the founders of our field. In this series of podcasts, I hope to bring appreciation of the courage and the vision and most importantly the scientific background among the leaders who founded our field of clinical cancer care over the last 70 years. I hope by understanding the background of how we got to what we now considered normal in oncology, we can all work together towards a better future for our patients and their families during and after cancer treatment. Today, my guest on this podcast is Dr. Vincent T. DeVita, best known as Vince. Dr. DeVita is generally considered one of the so-called Gang of Five, including Doctors Canellos, Young, Chabner, and Schein, who I've been trying to get on for this podcast in the future, all at the NCI, and who brought many of the concepts we now accept as standard into the clinic in the 1960s and '70s. Dr. DeVita is currently a Professor of Medicine and Epidemiology and Public Health at the Yale School of Medicine. I think it's also fair to say, Dr. DeVita was instrumental in the passage of the 1971 National Cancer Act. And I want to hear more about that as we get into this. He was director of the NCI and the National Cancer Program from 1980 to 1988 and then moved to Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center as Physician in Chief and subsequently became the Director of the Yale Cancer Center in 1993. Among his many honors-- and I don't have time to go through them all-- but he has served as President of the American Cancer Society. And I think most dear to me, he was President of ASCO in 1977 and 1978. Dr. DeVita, welcome to our program. Nice to be here, Dan. I've done a little background. I know you grew up in the Bronx. And I know you went to William and Mary for undergrad and George Washington Medical School. And I also read what I didn't know, which is that you did your internship and residency at the University of Michigan. We're recording this just before the NCAA basketball tourney. And I have to say, go blue. We're all excited here in Ann Arbor about our basketball team. [LAUGHTER] What I'm really interested in is, were your parents physicians? Or what made you choose medicine out of the Bronx? Well, no, my father was a banker. And my mother was an interior decorator. So it was kind of a funny mix. But I think it's kind of peculiar. I was growing up, and my mother-- I tell this story in my book. My mother was kind of frightened by the fact that I really, as a seven- or eight-year-old kid, really thought the guy who delivered the ice-- in those days, we had ice boxes-- was terrific. And I wanted to be like Nunzi the iceman. And she panicked and said, no, no. You're going to be a doctor. And every time someone asked me what I was going to be, I just said I was going to be a doctor. And when I went to school, I decided I'd be a doctor. It was sort of Mama driving me in that direction. So you had a choice of being an iceman or a doctor [LAUGHS]. Right. I like-- I mean, biology was always a favorite subject of mine. So it was a good fit. And tell me about how you ended up going to the NIH and choosing oncology. Was that serendipitous? I talked to Bob Young the other day. And he said, fundamentally, he hadn't planned to be an oncologist and got to the NIH and liked it. Was that your role, or did you know you wanted to do cancer from the start? No, I was going to be a cardiologist. In fact, when I was a first-year resident, I did cardiac catheterizations and was a co-author on a paper that for a long time was well-cited in the field. So I applied to both the Heart and Lung Institute and the Cancer Institute. And those are very competitive positions. And I had an interview with Robert Berliner, which didn't go well [LAUGHS]. So I didn't get invited to the Heart Institute. And I went to the Cancer Institute. And when I walked in, Dr. David Rall was the chief of the pharmacology branch. And I asked him if I could work on the pharmacology of digoxin. And he, wise person that he was, said, sure. Go ahead if that's what you want to do. And I was surrounded by people who were working on anti-cancer drugs. And I actually became fascinated with them. And it was only a few months, because I was also on the wards at the time, that I said, oncology is the way to go. It was an exciting new field. It was kind of a funny field in those days. But I found it exciting, so I switched. So just to give you a plug here, I think many of us know that you wrote a book, The Death of Cancer, published a couple of years ago, co-written with your daughter Elizabeth by the way. But in it, you described a number of things. And one of those that I loved were your stories about Gordon Zubrod. And I trained with Dr. Frei at the Dana-Farber. He always had great things to say about Dr. Zubrod. And I wonder if you could tell the folks listening in who he was-- I think most people don't even know that-- and the impact he had on our field. Yeah, I used to call him the great umbrella. The field was very controversial at the time. And so the people who were doing things like saying, I'm going to try to cure this cancer-- leukemia in Frei's case and Hodgkin's in our case-- were considered just a little bit this side of insane. He was somebody who was distinguished. Now, Frei had-- Zubrod had been at St. Louis as a professor and also at Johns Hopkins. And he was a very distinguished-looking man and a very polite, careful man. And so he used to provide sort of the umbrella for all of us, so that [INAUDIBLE] he'd take the heat. And we could go on and do our work. So he was-- he did enormous number of things. I mean, the whole clinical trial structure was established by Gordon Zubrod. The phase I, II, III trials was all done in a paper by Gordon Zubrod in the late 1950s. So I think he was just a guy who had foresight and was a great leader. I ultimately took his job. He got tired of bucking the bureaucracy and retired and went to Florida as the director of their cancer center there. So I got to know him pretty well. And like Frei, I have great admiration with him. I mean, it's interesting how we take phase I, II, and III for granted. And when he came in, and not too long before you came in, those things weren't-- nobody really knew how to do this stuff. Doctors Frei and Freireich were already at the NCI when you got there, correct? Yes, indeed. Yeah, they were. Yeah. And so they must have been inspirational. They were, and especially Freireich. Freireich was always on the wards. And Tom didn't come over to the wards very much. He was sort of the direct-- he was chief of medicine. And Freireich was the chief of the leukemia service. So we saw Freireich all the time. Tom came over once in a while. And Jay was a super doctor. And it was very hard to stay ahead of him. You'd get an x-ray on a patient. And he'd call you up 20 minutes later and tell you what it was. He was already down looking at it. So you had to stay on your toes with Jay. And of course he was, as everybody knows-- Jay-- he was a bold guy, who-- I mean, he looked like he could walk through a wall. So he frightened a lot of people. But he was an inspiration. So I'm always grateful for what Jay Freireich taught me. There's a great story in your book, that Dr. Frei has told me as well, about the first platelet transfusion at the NCI. Can you elaborate on that? I think most folks don't know about that story. Platelet transfusion was, again, one of those radical departures. But Freireich reasoned that we were losing more people from bleeding than we were from leukemia. So he worked out a way of plasma pheresing people and collecting platelets. And we didn't have a lot of the expertise we have now. And they came in quart bags. I mean, they were plasma bags that were huge. And we were treating little kids. So they were-- throwing them into heart failure was a problem. So it was pretty radical. And he was told to stop doing it by the clinical director at that time. And in fact, he was told that if he didn't stop doing it, he was going to be fired. And he told me-- he said, I went back to my office, sat down, and thought about it. And I decided I didn't want to work at a place where I couldn't do that. So I just kept on doing it. And the person who said he was going to fire him never did. But that was Jay Freireich. [LAUGHS] He believed so strongly in it. And when I went to Yale right after I left the Cancer Institute-- I finished my residency up there. And I told them-- when I saw leukemia patients who were bleeding-- and I said, what you should do is platelet transfusions. And they said, they don't work. And I said, I used them. And I saw them work. So I think we're losing patients unnecessarily. It was just very controversial. So eventually I left the program. I was going to take a residency and then a fellowship in hematology there. And I decided to go back to the Cancer Institute where these adventurous things were going on. Times are different now, of course. Dr. Frei once told me a story that he-- you may have been with him-- that he was making rounds in the clinical center. And in those days, apparently, the adults and the kids were in the same ward. And there was a child with essentially no white cells, who'd been induced for leukemia, and a man next to him with CML. And so-- and actually, when Dr. Frei told me this, I kind of said, I don't think I want to hear this story, because he said, well, you know, the kid didn't have any white cells. And the guy next to him had way too many white cells. So [LAUGHS] I said, tell me you didn't do this. He said, yeah, we took platelets out from the guy and gave them to the kid. And the kid got better for a while. It was really exciting. I thought, boy, you don't see that anymore. Yeah, I mean, it was a very reasonable thing to do, because the white cells in a chronic myelogenous leukemia patient work very well in terms of fighting infection. Yeah. So there was no reason. And the kids, otherwise, wouldn't survive. And so, yeah, I was there when we got these-- we gave these. I mean, they weren't easy to give, because they stuck in the lungs. And we didn't have HLA matching at the time. So they were-- a lot of them were mismatched. But for a while, they were effective. And then we went to collecting white cells from normal people. But the white cells had not worked as well as platelets had worked. Platelets have been a lifesaver. Now it's a couple of hundred million dollar business each year now. So it's routinely done, as many things that Jay started are routinely done now. Of the many things for which you are credited, I think it's the use of combination chemotherapy for Hodgkin's and then subsequently non-Hodgkin's that is one of your lasting legacies. There must have been a lot of drama around doing that. I mean, I think we all just assume you're going to start protocol. You write the protocol. You get funding for it. And you go forward. But can you give us some stories about sitting around at night and thinking about how to do this? Or how did you choose those drugs and why and how to give them and the obstacles that were involved? Yeah, actually, it was a very complicated process. And we didn't have the information we have now. What we had was-- I was doing this with Jack Moxley, who left active medicine and became a dean after he left the Cancer Institute. But we're still in touch. And Jack was working with [? Sy ?] [? Perry ?] using the new isotope, tritiated thymidine, looking at the bone marrow of CML patients and also of mice. And I was doing the same thing with the leukemia 1210, which was a model that we used for chemotherapy all the time. And what we were trying to do was figure out the kinetics of human versus mouse marrow, so we could develop schedules that humans would survive. We quickly found out that you can't use the mouse as a model, because their blood cells went through a kinetic phase about half the length of humans. So you had to schedule in a different way. So we worked that out. And then we looked at very simple-- something that people really ignored is that when you give a chemotherapy agent that is toxic to the marrow, you don't get abnormal blood counts right away. For a week, you'll have a normal white cell. And then on day seven or eight, it begins to fall, because the storage compartment in the marrow works well for about a week. And then there's no replenishment. And the white count falls. So between the two, looking at the marrow and looking at the white cells in the periphery, we came up with a schedule for MOPP. And then the other things were simple. We just decided that you'd have to have three or four drugs that worked by themselves. There had been people doing combination chemotherapy before-- Tom Hall in Boston and [? Alan ?] [INAUDIBLE] at Yale. And their rationale was they're looking at a sequential biochemical blockade. But they ignored whether the drugs actually worked against the tumor, assuming that if you gave them together, that the biochemical blockade would dominate. And it didn't work. In fact, it was very discouraging. But we decided the way to do it was take drugs that had some activity in the disease and use them together and use them in full doses in the schedules that we worked out because of the prior work I was telling you about. So it took a while to put that together. And then Jack Moxley and I used to do this at a bar in Georgetown called the Lehigh Grill, where we used to-- my cardiology desire-- I used to go to Georgetown where there was a wonderful cardiologist Proctor Harvey, who used to hold Thursday night sessions. You had an auditorium that was wired. So you could hear heart sounds. And after that, we'd go to the Lehigh Grill. And we sort of put together the protocol. When we presented it to Tom, he thought it was a good idea. But the other people around him thought it was insane and really tried to stop it. Tom Frei? Yeah. Tom Frei, yeah, yeah. Well, Tom was supportive. Yeah, Emil Frei was his real name. But everybody called him Tom. Yeah, he was supportive. But the people around him and my immediate boss was very much against it, because he thought it would interfere with the protocol that they were doing and so forth. So Tom worked out a solution worthy of Solomon. He said, OK, we could do-- the magic number for phase I trials in those days was 14. If you got nothing in 14 patients, then you didn't go any further. So we could do 14 patients with the first protocol, which was called MOMP-- M-O-M-P. And we had to do the workups ourselves. We couldn't use other colleagues to work up the patients. And we had to go get the patients ourselves. So Jack Moxley and I did all those things. And the results were very encouraging. And then Jack left. And I sat down and decided that we'd put procarbazine. I was working on procarbazine. It was then called [INAUDIBLE]. And I was working on it and doing the pharmacology in the phase I study with it in Hodgkin's disease. It was a promising candidate. So we put it in. And that became MOPP. Also in those days, six weeks of therapy was it. They didn't get more than six weeks. We reasoned that the marrow problems would be acute. But you'd have to give it probably for a long period of time to affect the tumor. So we gave it for at least six months or to a complete remission plus two months. And we assumed that there were cells left after we couldn't see them. So it was a lot of good thinking that went into it that turned out to be correct, because most of the-- since then, a lot of protocols follow the same sort of routine. And it really works for a lot of cancers. But it was controversial. I went to the AACR meeting. This was before ASCO. And I presented it as an abstract. And David Karnofsky, who was sort of a god at that time at Memorial Sloan Kettering, just tore me apart. And what was I doing using the term complete remission for a solid tumor. He said, that was a term that was used in leukemia. Now, I didn't say it. But I'm thinking, the reason you use them is you can get complete remission. So we had complete remissions. And I was kind of shaking with the microphone in my hand at the time. So it was a scary but it was a good experience. I have to say-- So it just gives you an idea that people were not receptive [INAUDIBLE]. Those of us who are junior to you can't imagine that you were intimidated by somebody else [LAUGHS]. Well, I was a youngster, then. I was-- Jack Moxley and I, I would say, thinking back, we were cocky. But the big guys in the field could scare me. And Zubrod was a-- I mean, Karnofsky was a big guy in the field. Yeah. He just had a hard time getting out of the leukemia mind frame. And so of course, we've used complete remission since then in any kind of solid tumor where you can get one. In your book, you have a great quote that you presented somewhere. And Dr. Frei was there. And Wayne Rundles was there. Wayne, of course, has been at Duke for 100 years. And he said, do your patients speak with you after you're done? Well, Wayne Rundles-- when he first saw the MOPP protocol, Wayne Rundles said, that's nonsense. He said, I get the same thing with nitrogen mustard by myself. Well, nobody had ever got that with nitrogen mustard. So we actually had to set up a controlled trial and do it and prove that MOPP was better. So when I presented it when we were first starting it-- at a meeting. Tom had arranged this meeting with all the bigwigs in the field. And when I presented it at that, everybody was sort of quiet. And then Wayne Rundles raised his hand. He looked pale. He raised his hand and said to me, Dr. DeVita, do your patients speak to you after you do this? [LAUGHS] So he-- a few years later when we were obviously getting good results, he invited me to grand rounds. And by then, we were good friends. And I was up on the podium. And after I gave the talk, he was sitting down below smiling at me. And I said, Dr. Rundles, if you remember, you asked me if your patients speak to you when you do this. And I can tell you that they do for a lot longer. So it was fun. But it was fun. He was a good friend by then. And I had great respect for him. Actually, he was a very nice man. He was. When did you start thinking that you had a success? Was it during those first 13 patients or 14 patients that you treated? I mean, was it obvious right away, or did you start [INAUDIBLE]-- Well, it was obvious-- --you were in the wrong place? We put-- no. We thought it pretty early, because we were worried. We put patients in reverse isolation. Nobody knew whether you were going to kill them if you gave them all these drugs together. And it turned out the first surprise was, yeah, they had the usual toxicity. But it really wasn't that bad. So it was doable. And the second was-- we had a small number. But we had-- something like 80% of the patients went into a complete remission. And I think nobody had seen that. Now, the question was, how long were they going to last? So we were optimistic. And when we put patients on it, there was no cure for them at that time. And we said, we're optimistic that this is going to be something that will last. But we don't know. And then by three years, it looked pretty good. And I think I presented the first abstract four years after we started. And by that time, we had relapse-free survival curves. And again, nobody before that time had presented relapse-free survival curves in any of the lymphomas. So by then, by four years, I think we felt we had probably cured some patients with the disease. I asked Bob Young this same question. Did you feel a sense of history at the time, that this was really historical? Or did that come later when you looked backwards? I think what people don't realize about those days is neither Freireich nor ourselves were treating leukemia and Hodgkin's disease. In other words, we weren't out to develop a treatment for those diseases. We were out to prove you could cure cancer with drugs, because nobody believed it. If you said that, they really thought you had gone balmy. So we were out to look-- so we knew if we could do it, it would be historic. So we were excited when we looked like maybe it was going to happen. By that time, when we had first reported it, the VAMP program that Freireich did, which was an historic program-- he only had 17 patients. And they actually never published a paper on VAMP. And I asked Jay why they never did that. And he said because he didn't think they would accept it anywhere. So but by that time, they were getting about a 50% complete remission rate going four or five years. And they were thinking they're curing leukemia. And we were getting 80% complete remission rates. So I think everybody felt that we were going to prove that you could cure cancer with the drugs. And we did. So yes, in a sense, we set out to do something that would be historic. And so when it happened, I think, it is. It was a sort of a door opener for medical oncology in Hodgkin's disease. I'd like to turn now for just a minute to your role in politics. You were pretty instrumental, I think, when the National Cancer Act was signed in 1971. And that also sounds like a TV drama to me. It sounds like-- and I know this anyway, but in reading your book, it was not clear that was going to get through. Can you give us some of the playground behind that and Mary Lasker's role and how that happened? Well, Mary Lasker played a big role. The MOPP program actually played a big role, because Mary Lasker was sort of working in the background. Cancer was always a cause for her. But when we did the MOPP program, there was a guy named Luke Quinn, who she had hired to be a lobbyist, who was sort of hidden in the American Cancer Society so they wouldn't realize it was Mary Laskers' lobbyist. And he was referred to me by Sidney Farber. And I didn't want to take him at first, because he was diagnosed as having gall bladder cancer. And I said to them, you know-- I said to Sidney Farber, I don't really treat patients with gall bladder cancer. And there was silence on the phone. And he said, (SOMBER, COMMANDING VOICE) you will take this patient. [LAUGHS] So I took the patient. And when I examined him, when he came down and I examined him, he had adenopathy in both axillae. And gall bladder cancer just doesn't do that. So I had to do another biopsy. He was not a pleasant guy. So it was not easy to do these things. I had to get another biopsy. And it turned out that my pathologist at the time, Costan Berard, when he compared the biopsy, he said, it's a lymphoma, clearly. It was a diffuse, large cell lymphoma. What they had done is, because Claude Welch did the surgery-- a very famous abdominal surgeon-- and he said it was gall bladder cancer, that the pathologist sort of assumed it was. And it was a compression artifact. Long story short, he went into remission. And Mary Lasker went gaga. Wait a minute. We got something here. And that was what pushed her to get her friend, Senator Ralph Yarborough, to put up a committee on cancer to come up with the Cancer Act. And-- So it must have been quite a day when President Nixon signed that. Yeah, well, it was-- I wasn't at the signing. I wasn't high enough up in the chain to be invited to the signing. But yeah, I have all the photos of him signing it. And later when I met him-- I have a picture in the book of he and I shaking hands and him looking like he's having a roaring laugh. People ask me what I said that was funny. And I have no idea. But when I asked him, I said what is your greatest achievement as a president? He said two-- opening up China and signing the Cancer Act. So he was-- Really? Yeah, so I think he was proud that he did that. That's a great story. Actually, the other story I had not heard, but read in your book-- I'd like you to tell me about your lunch with Mr. Featherstone. [LAUGHS] Featherstone Reid, his name was. Well, this was a very-- this was a regular occurrence. Mary Lasker, when she came to town, would stay with Deeda Blair, Mrs. William McCormick Blair, who was a Washington socialite and had a lovely house on Foxhall Road. And they would have lunches and dinners. And they always arranged it so that people-- the scientists sat next to somebody with influence. And this is how they influenced the Congress to put more money into the cancer program. So one time, I got a call in the morning from Deeda Blair, saying, I'm having a lunch. We'd like to have you there. And I said, gee, I-- it's too short notice. I can't do it. And she said, well, Mary really wants you to be there. Mary was hard to say no to. So I rearranged my schedule, drove down to Deeda's house. And there was a big black limo sitting in the front of the house. I went in, and they introduced me to Featherstone Reid. I had no idea who he was. And every time Mary would say, we want more money for research with leukemias and lymphomas. Vince, tell him about what's going on. And I would tell him about. At the end of the lunch, he left. And Mary and I sat down on the couch to have a cup of coffee. And I said, Mary, who is Featherstone Reid? And she said, he's Warren Magnuson's driver. And when she saw the shock on my face-- Senator Warren Magnuson was the chairman of the appropriations committee of the Senate. When she saw the shock on my face, she said, wait a minute. When Mrs. Maggie-- he takes Mrs. Maggie shopping during the day. And Mrs. Maggie-- he fills her with all this information we're giving him. And then Mrs. Maggie is the last person to put her head down on the pillow next to Warren Magnuson. This is the way she worked. She would take someone like Magnuson, who was a good friend, but she would surround him with extraneous people who would say the same thing. So it was sort of like subliminal stimulation for him. He was always hearing these positive things. And then he supported the program. She was a piece of work. I never got to meet her. But it sounds like she was a force of nature. She was. And of course, the Lasker Award is now named for her and her husband and sort of the American Nobel Prize. She's had such [INAUDIBLE]. Yeah, and our crew won it in 1972-- Frei, Freireich, myself, and other people for other things. So I'm very fond of Mary Lasker, obviously. It's just a wonderful story. And I got to know her pretty well, so. I have one other question. And I'm not sure you'll want-- if you don't want to go off on it, we can edit it out. But in your book, you talked about Howard Skipper and Frank Schabel. And Dr. Frei used to talk about them all the time. And I think it's worthwhile to bring them into the history of what we do. Did you actually work with them or collaborate with them, or just base some of your ideas on what they had in mind? When I was starting at the Cancer Institute, I thought Schabel worked at the Cancer Institute-- I mean, Skipper worked at the Cancer Institute, because I would be working in the lab. I was doing the tritiated thymidine studies on L1210 mice. And he would be looking over my shoulder. He was doing the similar studies, but he was just doing it with cell counts in the abdomen of the mice. And he thought that was good enough. And he was there at a weekly meeting we had, which George Canellos named the Society of Jabbering Idiots. It was a great, great meeting, actually. [LAUGHS] And he was there all the time. And my view and Tom's view differ a little bit on Skipper. I think he was a real driving force, that he did the studies in mice that we were doing in the clinic with people. And he actually-- in 1964, he wrote a paper showing that you could cure L1210 leukemia. It was the first example of curing a mouse with leukemia. And I think-- so it was sort of a feedback mechanism between the Cancer Institute and the Southern Research Institute. So and he did-- he used to do these booklets. And I think he published hundreds of these booklets. Some of them, we convinced him to actually publish as papers. But I have the collection. There may be 100 booklets he wrote. And he would take a concept that we were working on and then work through it in mice. It was very, very important. And he was a wonderful person. His only problem was he smoked like a chimney. But he was-- I liked Frank and Howard. Yeah, Dr. Frei had the entire set of monographs on his bookshelf in his office and would encourage us to come in and borrow them and read them and come back. And frankly, he basically predicted what you've done with combination therapy. He predicted adjuvant therapy working. There were just a number of things he saw in these mice that we've gone on to apply in the clinic. It's pretty remarkable, I think, so. Yeah, I mean, it's not only he predicted it. But he actually showed the concept worked in mice. So as we know, mice and human are very different [INAUDIBLE]. There was a guy in Boston, Stuart Schlossman, a very fine scientist. And he didn't like mouse models. And when asked what he would do when he saw a tumor-bearing mouse, he would say, I would step on it, because he didn't believe mouse models. And but Frank and Howard did experiments and made allowances for the difference between humans and mice. So it was always good to know. I mean, I have the summary he wrote on Hodgkin's disease after he saw the MOPP program. So I think they're very instructive booklets. So I kept them. Like Tom, I think that we sort of live by them. Well, thanks for discussing them. I think our listeners need to remember these two guys. They were great. We're running out of time. I've really just touched the surface of what you've done and contributed to the field. And the people you've trained is sort of a who's who of oncology, frankly. But at the end of the day, what's your-- I'll ask you the same question you asked President Nixon. And that is, what is your legacy? What do you want people to remember that Vince DeVita did? I get asked that question a lot. And I don't have one thing that I can say. I mean, I've been lucky in my career that I've had a chance to do many things. Being the Director of the Cancer Institute was wonderful. You could sit on top of the whole field and just sort of scan it and see what's going on. And it was very important, because you've become the spokesman of practicing physicians at the same time. MOPP, of course, was important. Putting out the first comprehensive textbook in the field and watching it-- we just came out with the 11th edition-- is also very exciting. So there-- we were the first to successfully treat Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia. And we reported it in a paper in the New England Journal. I mean, there were a lot of things. I'm best known, I think, for MOPP, probably, and the principles of MOP, which I'm very proud of. But there's so many that I have a hard time. I like opera. And people ask me, what's my favorite opera? And I usually say, it's the one I just saw. It's very hard for me to pick one opera. There's so many that I like. So I'm not dodging it. But I just never can say, well, it's this. That's very fair. Frankly, I think, without your contributions, I probably wouldn't be sitting here doing what I do. And I think there are thousands of us who would say that. So we're-- Well, that's very flattering. Well, not only are we appreciative, more importantly, there are a lot of people who are alive who wouldn't have been without what you and your colleagues did at the NCI that so many years ago, so-- [INTERPOSING VOICES] I was involved in the training of 93 medical oncologist. At one time, something like 40% of all the [INAUDIBLE] directors were our graduates. So they have gotten around. And that was good for the field. They went out with the same principles we were developing at the Cancer Institute, so that's very gratifying. Have you kept in touch with any of the patients that you're treated back at the NCI? I talked to Saul Rosenberg. And he told me he still sees people that he treated 30 or 40 years ago when he first moved to Stanford. We're writing a paper on the 45-year follow-up of the first 188 patients. Again, nobody has 45-year follow-ups. And we called every one of the survivors. And there's something like 60% or so of the complete remissions are alive. So I talked to some of them. But we had a nurse talk to a lot of them. And I got messages from them after the call. And some of them still contact me, after sort of an anniversary of their treatment. So yeah, I've kept up with them. The gratifying thing is most of them are suffering from the same illness as most people who are getting into their 70s or some of them 80s. They have hip problems and so on and prostate cancer. But there doesn't seem to be any really major increase in anything in these long survivors. Now, mind you, these were patients who got MOPP as their only treatment. And so when you see second tumors in these kinds of patients, it's usually patients who got radiation therapy plus MOPP. So these patients who are 45 years had just got MOPP. And they seem to be perfectly fine. That's remarkable. I love your comment that they are getting the same illness as the rest of us get as they get older. That's great. Yeah, we don't cure bad hips and bad knees and-- Yeah, we can't cure old age. When I was at the Dana-Farber, I had a patient who had been one of Sydney Farbor's original patients from the early '50s. And by this time he was obviously an adult. He was older than I was. And he was fine, as you've said. Although he said Dr. Farber kept treating him and treating him and treating him. And then finally, when Dr. Farber passed away, someone else picked up his chair. And they said, why are you still getting this? And they stopped it. Yeah. So he got a lot of treatment. I had one of Freireich's VAMP patients. She was a girl in her early teens. And she was a wildcat. But she had had something else, and it failed. And she was one of the first patients on VAMP. And she went into remission. And she stayed in remission. And I followed her for many years. She went to college. She got married. She had children. She brought her children in to see me. And last time I had any follow-up with her, she was in her 60s. And she was one of the really first long survivors of that particular program. So it's really neat to see these patients. And it's not rare for me to go to a meeting and have people walk up to me and say they got MOPP 25 years ago. Someone else gave it to them. And they're alive and well. So that's one of the great gifts of having a chance to do this kind of work. What a privilege. Well, I think we need to end. Again, I want to thank you for being on with us today and filling us in with some of these stories. Had really good feedback for my podcast series. And it's because of the people I've had on it. So thank you very much for all you've done. It's really good talking to you. And I look forward to listening to all your podcasts. [MUSIC PLAYING] Until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcast or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO's Cancer Stories, The Art of Oncology podcast is just one of ASCO's many podcasts. You can find all the shows at podcast.asco.org. [MUSIC PLAYING]

Hi honey, I'm home! 嗨，亲爱的，我回来了！ How was the farmers' market? 农贸市场怎么样？ It was great! I bought a bunch of organic produce, berries and some artisanal cheese. 很不错！我买了好多有机农产品，还买了莓子和手工奶酪。 Was it like shopping in vegetable markets back in China? 跟国内的菜市场像吗？ Totally different! For one, the vendors were actual farmers. 完全不同！比如，农贸市场摆摊儿的人都是自产自销、实际的种植者。 Really? 是吗？ Yeah, my friend told me that they're pretty strict about everything being farm-to-table. 对，我朋友说，市场要求所有食材都要严格遵循从农场直接到餐桌的原则。 What was the atmosphere like? Noisy? ...

  Author of the book We're All Ears and expert in the topic of influence, Valerie Morris, is in today's episode as Nate and she talk about the advantages of YouTube, which has become a huge and still growing industry over the years.   Welcome back. Today we're talking about the advantages of YouTube. If you've watched any video on my channel, you know I love YouTube and there's 2 main advantages that I love to talk about. Valerie Morris here. She's got some good questions. She wrote the book on influence. So check it out on Amazon. "We're All Ears". You had some really good questions about the advantages of YouTube and that's we're going to talk about today. -So, tell me a little bit about the lifespan of a YouTube video. Because when people are making videos on social media, sometimes the lifespan of that post is really short or could be really long. And I think in YouTube, it's a little bit longer. Is that correct? -Absolutely. That's a huge, huge advantage to YouTube. So, I found this image that totally represents what typically happens to video. And here's what happens. We put our heart and soul into creating a video. It's really valuable content. We post it on Facebook. And it gets view and get seen. You know, our tribe gets nurtured by that video. But then a week later, it's not getting any more views. Especially a month later. -Yes. -Ends up on the pile. -And then we create another one. We have to work again we create a brand new video. And it just ends up on that pile. That garbage pile of videos. On YouTube, that doesn't happen. Wow. Because YouTube has a search engine. And I can talk more about that. But videos are now searchable. Think about if you're on YouTube and you want to find a video. I mean, I just tell you, "Yeah, there is this dog he's wearing a pink sweater." I don't remember the name of it. You could find it. You just type in dog with pink sweater and that video is going to come up. Their search engine is so good. -Really? -If you're on Facebook and you saw even just a month ago. You saw a video that you love and you want it to show it to me? -It's really hard. -Yeah. -It's really hard. -You have to dig back through your history or if you if you even try and user searched and it's impossible. But like the best way I know to find it is just going back through my history and like digging, digging, digging, digging. Yeah, it's really lame. So stuff just gets buried on most social media platforms. But YouTube, your videos, if you follow the search strategy that I teach which if you're new to this channel, watch this video right here t00, it's my tree analogy. You'll really understand how the strategy works. If you follow that strategy. your videos will actually get more and more views over time. So several years down the road, it's still bringing in new people who've never heard of you before. It is a marketing machine. -So, it really has the potential to give you views years later? -Totally. Instead of just days? -Yeah. -Wow. -Videos that I've created 3 or 5 years ago, that's when it started you know really actively on YouTube. Or still getting searched and found on YouTube now. -That's great. -Yeah. -So, it's it really helps you build momentum. The snowball effect totally applies to YouTube because every new video I create is just increasing. Kind of this army or machine. These machines that are just getting more and more views. Another example. A lady that was following my strategy filmed 5 episodes a week for a full year. And then had some questions about the direction of her business. So that's why she stopped on YouTube. So, even though she's thought posted to YouTube, her channels continue to grow in subscribers and grow in views. It's getting more views now than when she stopped about 6 months ago. -Really? -Yeah. Because we followed this same strategy. But the videos are just getting more and more valuable over time. -That's great. -Yeah. -Wow. Is she... Did she go back to that... -Oh, she wants to. And we've consulted. And I just really encouraged her to iron out what she needs to do on her business first. And then... And then yeah, YouTube's a good option when she does that. -Wow. -That's great. So, okay. YouTube is owned by Google. And obviously Google is the biggest search engine out there. Is there a correlation between how well a video ranks on YouTube to how it's going to help drive traffic to a website? Can it help do that? -It can. And that's... I haven't interesting answer. Because the reason that I discovered my strategy on YouTube was because I used to offer search in an optimization as a service. -Okay. -For websites. So, let me just describe how that works. Let's say this this is a web page. -Yeah. -I knew how to create a web page that would get ranked on the front of Google right at the top. The top few spots. -Sure. -And what I would do is I would create a video that answered a how-to question. I put that video on the page. I would transcribe the video and put the text below it. I make it look pretty. I'd put some... I have my team designed some infographics. -Okay. -We would then write articles. And do article marketing that linked back to this webpage. And we do other types of link building to... You know, we do the keywords and everything for this page and it worked. This page ranked on Google. Then I noticed something. I noticed that the YouTube video itself on YouTube was getting 50 times more views than this page was ranking on Google. -Really? -50 times. -Wow. -And I looked at the amount of work it took to do all this compared to just that one piece. And I thought, "You know what? I'm just going to focus on that one piece." -Yeah. -So, I closed down my website company. Over time, eventually. Phased out and I phased out my SEO service. -Okay. -Just because YouTube videos on YouTube we're getting so much more results or be bringing leads. So, it's not that a website, it's not important. -Yeah. -But I don't do website SEO anymore. I don't... Not even for my own website. Now for my website... I use don't know let me like company using WordPress and all sorts of great design tools. Now, we use clickfunnels. -Okay. -I use clickfunnelsbecause I just use it to take my leads through a process. The front page is not really a sales funnel but it's designer click funnels. The goal is to use YouTube to pull in the traffic and then they go from YouTube into my sales funnel. -Wow. -That makes sense? -That makes sense. -It's a little bit of twist that the actual answer your question is yes, a YouTube video does put SEO strength onto the website. But in my experience, I longer even focus on the website anymore for SEO. I just do that all on YouTube. -One of the big questions that I always get from people and now that video is so popular on social media and people are starting to make more video, in which one should you focus on? Which one is better? YouTube versus Facebook? I feel like they're in this constant battle. Am I imagining that? -Well, YouTube obviously dominates for video. And they have for many years. -Right. Facebook really wants to compete. And so they put a lot of resources that created more features. And Facebook does have an advantage in some ways. Because Facebook is the most dominant social platform in many ways. The videos can actually go viral on Facebook where videos don't go viral by themselves on YouTube. For a video to really go viral on YouTube, it has to be shared somewhere else. Or YouTube has to promote it for you. -Right. -Which they do a lot. But on Facebook, something truly can go viral. And it's... If I have a video that's kind of viral quality like... This one might go viral. I'm more likely to post that one on Facebook because people will share it within Facebook and it will start to spread and go into different places and we'll get lots of views. I mean I think of a video that I filmed, there was a group of 12 of us at a conference in Dallas, I believe. And I thought, let's do one of those mannequin challenge videos. So you know, we all froze. I was the one filming so I wasn't frozen. But I told everyone to freeze. And I went around with my glide cam, my steady cam and filmed it in faster frames like doing slow motion. So, it's just kind of a cool video. It's not really something that people are going to be searching for on YouTube. -Right. I posted that one to Facebook and it got... Got like 6,000 views. -Yeah. -Which for me that's a lot. On Facebook that's a lot of views. So, that's the real strength of Facebook. Also, Facebook live seems to be doing better than YouTube. YouTube is kind of stepping up there their game with live. But so far, I think Facebook has the advantage. The advantage to YouTube is for long term content. -Okay. -Searchable content. And especially if you want your content to be put out to people who have never heard of you before. So we're not talking just about viral content like a cute kitten video. But if you're making educational content that you want to promote it out there without having you to pay for it, YouTube is actually the best place for that. -It's a great place to get discovered, it sounds like. -Yeah. -So, I'm curious. -Obviously, I'm real biased towards YouTube. How are you feeling now? Did I convince you or you still... Is there still a question in your mind about Facebook versus the YouTube video? -No, I think... I think YouTube definitely has some major advantages. I think like you're saying, there's... You have to take your goals into consideration with that video. Some videos may not necessarily be that educational, discoverable type of content. But it might do better on Facebook. So, I think it's really taking a look at what your video actually is and really catering to the platform. -Yeah. Totally right. I have a friend that she makes one minute recipe videos. And they work so well on Facebook. -Yeah. -She puts out one new one every day. She's got a 7-figure business. It's doing very well. It's a complete different strategy. And there's a reason she does what she does. And she has a YouTube strategy but it's not doing as well as her Facebook strategy for. So, it's specific to really what your goals are, what your platform is. But in the case of most of our audience on this channel are engaged like coaches speakers authors mentors where Facebook comes in strong is for nurturing your tribe. Where YouTube comes in strong, you can also nurture there but it's even more important for growing and building your tribe to a massive level. We're talking millions of millions of views a month on YouTube. -Wow. -Every time I talk about YouTube and talk about keyword research, people ask me a lot of questions. So, I created a guide called the keyword research guide. And I give that away for free. So, if you want to know how to do keyword research to get your videos to rank on the front page of YouTube on day one,  just click the link below and get access to that. Of course, subscribe. They watched this far, they probably liked it. So subscribing to get more of this every single day.

  So you want to earn money using YouTube but you're not sure how to get it viral? In this episode, Nate Woodbury and Valerie Morris will talk about some things to remember when making videos and how to get YouTube to notice your videos so they get the view count that you wanted.   Welcome back. So you've got an amazing idea for a video and you want to know how to make it go viral. We're going to talk about that. My best videos got over 5 million views. I'm going to tell you exactly how I did that. I'm here at Valerie Morris. We're talking about having a video go viral. I know you've got some questions about that and I think you're gonna be surprised by my answers. So, first of all, where did this question come from? What... What's your your intent behind going viral? -That's the golden question, right? Everyone wants to know if I'm going to put all this effort into making a video, what's going to make me get the best exposure and and do it perform the best. How do I make a video go viral? But people ask me that all the time in terms of social media. And I want to ask you in terms of YouTube, what makes a YouTube video go viral. What... What is... -So surprising answer. Yeah, the surprising answer is videos cannot go viral on YouTube. -Really? -Yeah. Now, I'll explain and I do know how to help you... The first part of what you said is to get a lot of views and get a lot of exposure. -Sure. -The reason I'm saying a video can't go viral on YouTube is YouTube is not a social platform. Right? -You can't... You can't share a video with your friend on YouTube. Right? If I wanted to share a video with you have to share a link to text or to face... Or I have to email it to you. And so, when it when a YouTube video goes viral, it's not actually going viral on the YouTube platform. It's being featured on somebody else's website or as... That makes sense? -Yeah. -So, how then does a video get a huge spike on YouTube? It's actually because YouTube is promoting your video. -Oh, okay. -The closest thing to viral on YouTube is called trending. -Okay. -I've actually never had a video go trending. I have some friends that have. King Of Random, Grant Thompson. He's had videos in the trending column. And so, if a video seems to be popular, YouTube will promote it. And then the most, most popular videos that are trending, those are kind of viral but YouTube is behind it. YouTube's algorithm will choose which ones go viral. And I'll just clarify the difference. When something goes viral say on Facebook, I can share something that's hilarious. I talk about the cute kitten videos deserving likes cute kittens. There's something that's just hilarious. Maybe, I don't know why these ones are so fun but somebody will get in an accident or they'll slip and fall. And people just love to watch this. So, they'll share it. Or you know. Well then that person watches in they share. And so that's really what we mean by viral. Like a virus spreads from person to person to person. -Yes. -You just can't do that on YouTube. But I love YouTube so much because YouTube actually does a whole lot of promotion. The way that YouTube makes their money is through advertisers paying YouTube. And all I have to do is make a video that goes well with good advertisements. So, I want ad revenue. I want the ads turned on even if these videos are for my business. And I think "Well, I don't want competitors put in front of my videos." Well, here's the thing: If ad shows up before your video and that ad performs well, YouTube will promote your video more and put that ad next to it because it'll make YouTube money. Now, the cool thing is is YouTube pays half that ad revenue to me or to you. They pay out half that ad revenue, 55%. -Wow. -And what's even bigger, way bigger than that. So, while YouTube is promoting that video so it can make ad revenue, I'm generating tons of leads. And I'll just I'll just give you an example to show how big of an impact that is. My... In the intro, I mentioned a video that's got over 5 million views. Now that... That video has literally made me about $150,000 on ad revenue. -Wow. -Okay. A derivative that means YouTube's made about that same amount as well. But that video has brought in my client Kris leads and it's bright... It's made him millions of dollars and that's the amount of time. -Wow. -Many millions of dollars just from that one video because YouTube has promoted it. So, how does he make money from that video? -A good question. -Beside ads maybe? -Yeah. So, in that case, I'm actually a partner on that channel and I get the ad revenue so that's why I say I got that. But he sells products teaching people how to invest in real estate. So all of his videos are educational. They're not commercials. But at the very end of the video, he'll then say, "Hey, if you found value in this video, you probably would like my book. I want to give you my book for free. Click on the link below." When they click on that link, that's on clickfunnels. Have you heard... -Yeah. -Okay. So.. -Great. -So, there's a sales funnel built in there and people can buy a thousand-dollar course. There's an upsell, there's a down sell. And he has a phone team that will call those leads and make follow-ups as well. And so that's... He's bringing about over $600,000 a month right now. -Wow. -That's amazing. -Yeah. Just from organic YouTube leads. -So, is there a sweet spot timewise to get those spikes? Do you want to have those happen right away? Can those happen later on? How does that happen? -And in all my experience, we have spikes all the time. They're mostly unpredictable. -Really? -The... I'll tell you about the ones that I know how to predict. Okay? So, if... If you're going daily on YouTube and for me that's 5 episodes or more per week. -Okay. -If you're going daily after 4 months, you can expect a spike. -Okay. -I can't control it but from my experience, I've seen that over and over again. And I'll tell you a story. Last Christmas with one of my clients. We were approaching that four-month mark. And they asked me, "Okay, are we supposed to be having a spike now? You said about the 4 month mark." I'm getting nervous because like... Because I don't control it. -Sure. -But I said, "You know what? It's Christmastime. Views right now we're kind of dipping. I noticed that all across YouTube. Let's wait till after the holidays and and we'll see we should get a spike." Well, it was like 2 days after I believe Christmas was on a weekend. And by the Tuesday or Wednesday of that next week they had their first spike. So, for some reason, there's something in the algorithm that is kind of predictable at that 4-month mark. I don't know which video it will be but YouTube will just pick one and they'll just pair it with an ad and start promoting it. And what that does for the channel is pretty amazing. It... I mean let's say you're averaging a hundred views per day on your channel. -Yeah. -And then a video spikes, you're getting thousands of views in a day. Even when the spike settles down, you come back at a much higher average. We call it a new baseline. You might be averaging now 500 views per day just because of that baseline. And obviously through that spike, you brought in a lot more subscribers. So, in that in the case of that specific channel, when I started with them, they had already built 3,000 subscribers on their channel. So over the years, they had grown up to 3,000. And then in the first 4-months, we added 1 more thousand. So, we went from 3,000 to 4,000. It's good. But I'd say not very exciting. -Yeah. -It's been 4 months since then. So when we're filming this video, it's right at the early part of May. So we've had January, February, March and April. We're now up to 13,000 subscribers. -Wow. -Yeah. -Do you think there's some piece of Google as realizing... Google/YouTube is realizing, "Hey, if they're willing to do this for 4 months consistently, they must be serious about this." Do you think there's some piece of that? -That's... That's my assumption as to why that works. They love consistency. When you look at the YouTube algorithm, when you log into the YouTube analytics, the things that you see first kind of tell me what what YouTube likes and is looking for. YouTube really likes watch time. And so... And then they like consistency I've just noticed that from experience. And so, by going daily with videos that are good like they retain people's attention, that's really the 2 ingredients that I found that will get that. Because I have... I have seen channels where they have gone daily like that and they have shown the consistency but when you look at you know, how long are people watching it, they've got an average watch time of like 15% or 20% and they didn't get a spike. And that's that's kind of the differentiator of the what I've seen. But if you're if you're seeing like at least a 45% retention rate on your videos, I've seen a spike every single time. -Wow. That's amazing. So, are there any other tips that you can give outside of the 4-month mark that really can help you spike and well on YouTube. -Yeah. So, this is really cool. You... You have to build up a track record first. So typically, that first 4 months are laying that foundation. And then when you have your first spike, look back at what video or videos is YouTube now promoting. And when I say promoting, they put your videos as suggested videos or they put you on the home screen or something like that. And you can it will show you exactly what user coming from. So, if a video is getting way more views, YouTube is suggesting our video. What I recommend doing is create another version of that same video. Make it a little bit longer. Make it better. I mean, if originally you put 20 minutes into the thought and the filming of this video, you know, put an hour, a couple hours into creating another one that's, "Okay, how can I make this even better? More engaging. Make it a little bit longer? How can I design a better thumbnail?" I'll show you a story of how I did that so the video that I showed that's got 5 million views. We created it intentionally. Which is so exciting. Like, I wanted this to happen and now it's worked. So, we had I'll just tell you that the name of the video. It's How To Invest In Your 20's. -Okay. -We had a version of that video that was about 5 or 6 minutes long and it had been performing pretty well. So, I told Kris, "Alright, we're going to redo this video. Same topic. You can tell, share the same story. But I want you to do some additional things. I want you to show your car." And he was real hesitant because he has a BMW i8. The wing doors come up and everything. He was real hesitant back then. This is a year ago. And I said, "Just pull your car up. Have the door open and all I'll follow you. And that's how we'll start the video." So, he was sharing the same story but we just put a lot more time. I followed him with the glidecam. So, it's real steady going into his house. And instead of just standing in one. The original video he was sitting on his pool table had like red felt. And it looked cool. But this time, I filmed him walking and he went to the kitchen he got a drink of water. And then he went down to the pool table and then we went over... We just... We ended up making it a 20-minute episode. We weren't planning on being that long. But because he was inviting people into his home, kind of felt really personal, it kept people engaged the whole time. So, we launched this video like, "Okay, here's a topic that we know does well on our channel. YouTube likes it." And the first 3 weeks, it didn't perform well. It didn't spike yet. But like, "Yeah, this is a good video. YouTube likes it. Good job." But then... Then it took off. -Really. -And from on June first, we had 80,000 subscribers on the channel. By a week into July, we're up to 160,000. -Wow. -So, in 5 weeks we doubled the size of our channel. And that that one video is the the one that's really driven the channel. The most we've created other ones that have done well and spiked but and that one's our best. -That's amazing. What a fun story. -So, the moral of the story is look back at videos that have performed well and recreate them. Now, you can use this. We call that the sequel technique. You can use that sequel technique on other channels. It's not always a guaranteed success but if you find another channel that has a similar audience and you can then think... You know, kind of study, "Why did this video perform so well?" I'm going to try and create my own version that's maybe a little bit longer, more compelling thumbnail, better engaging content and you can... I mean, that's something that you can do. Obviously, YouTube likes the video on that other channel. And you can see if you can get the same results on your channel. We've had some successes. Mostly failures. I'll just admit. I'd probably say 75% of the videos that we create with that strategy just get normal results. -Okay. -But.. But I'd say 25% of them do get the the spikes with it. -Wow. Very cool. -So, can a video go viral on YouTube, no. But kind of get millions of views? Yes. And hopefully this video is helpful. Be sure to subscribe. I'll see you tomorrow.

Chuck Clough  0:00  Hello, this is Chuck from Above the Basement Boston music and conversation. Hey, we have missed you all so much and hope to get back on a regular schedule. We are still working out some new projects and we will tell you about those very soon. But one thing we can tell you about something we are honored and excited to announce we have been nominated for a Boston Music Award for the 2019 Podcast of the Year and since I have personally never won a thing in my life, never mind a cool trophy. We would love for you to vote for us, or honestly whatever podcast you like and support as well as for you to vote for one of the many talented Boston artists nominated in their categories. Go to Boston Music Awards. com forward slash vote to make your choices. And thank you as always for supporting the Boston music community. This time around we finally got a chance to talk with singer songwriter and Boston native Matt York. Matt has been in the Boston music scene for quite a while now after stepping away from music to become aSecret Agent and family man Matt jumped back into music and has been quite prolific hitting the road often to perform and also released a few critically acclaimed albums, including Boston, Texas Between The Bars and just this month, his latest album Bruisable Heart. Right before we got a chance to see him play at lizard lounge and Cambridge with his talented wife on base for his CD release, we sat with him at Adelita's, his restaurant in West Concord, Massachusetts for a chat while the commuter rail would occasionally scream by us. We talked about his new album, his influences, the Boston music scene, and the dangers of mosquitoes. So here is our conversation with Matt York, recorded at Adelitas in West Concord, Massachusetts. They made bottled water illegal in Concord. It was like a big deal they have Matt York  1:55  Is Concord the town where they were talking about repealing it after they do cuz everybody saw like what a pain in the ass it was? Chuck Clough  2:02  I don't know maybe Matt York  2:03  it was a town do that I was just reading about in the Globe those that's trying to undo what they did because I Chuck Clough  2:09  look I'm all for not using plastic bottle but you can't make it illegal to use something a total legal product way they should have done is done a PSA to get people to get the stores to use give them the incentive to use this instead of making it illegal. . And you can have plastic bottles for Coke and Pepsi Yeah, it's just water bottled water. But you know, I mean, you know, we got over the hump and it's not really that big a deal anymore. And Matt York  2:39  I'll try to stop talking about this. But I'm not there yet.  what is it what is a what is a box of water cost? Chuck Clough  2:47  This was like $1 75 or something. Matt York  2:50  So my town they just got rid of plastic bags at the supermarket. And if I had a memory if I had the ability to remember to bring the ones that I have in the back of my car every time like The reusable ones. Yeah, it would be fine. But I just end up buying more and more and more reusable. That's what Chuck Clough  3:06  I was leaving the car and then Matt York  3:10  I'm all for the idea of it. Chuck Clough  3:11  So am I. But now I mean now that look it's it's, it's Ronnie  3:15  it looks like milk. Chuck Clough  3:18  Here comes a train. Box, a water box water is better. Ronnie  3:21  So, take it. You're from a town that doesn't care about box water. Matt York  3:27  I live in Pembroke Massachusetts. Yes. So Pembroke is the land locked town next to Duxbury and Marshfield on the South Shore? Ronnie  3:34  Really? You ever run into Steven Tyler when you go through there and I Matt York  3:37  No but I saw the drummer at breakfast maybe a year or two ago and he has like a Lamborghini or Ferrari or whatever. And we're like we're eating in Marshfield. And I like sound like they can only be a couple of guys in Marshfield that own that car. Chuck Clough  3:50  Well, you know it's also moving out there is Ari Hest you know already he's a great singer songwriter you interviewed him over the winter we have to wait fort the train to go by. His wife's family's out there and he's I guess he's moving out there now. He's fantastic. Ronnie  4:10  And Steve Carell was there too. Matt York  4:12  Yep. I actually he was he just came to visit. He owns a general store there. Yeah. And so he like once a year, he does this little thing where you can meet and meet him and he just raises money for something. Chuck Clough  4:24  We try to get him on the show. I was all right, just for the hell of it. And you never get back to me. There was Ronnie  4:30  Oh, you emailed him. I didn't know that. Chuck Clough  4:31  I emailed his sister. Yeah. Who runs the general store. Ronnie  4:38  He's from Acton. I know. His dad lives in Acton. We could go to his house .  We did that with Gary Pihl So Gary peel. He is a guitarist for Boston. The band Boston. So he was a guitarist for them since 85. He lives in my neighborhood, And so I drove I sat in his driveway, He was drive because I was going out to, you know, to the front door to knock on his door. I go in the car and he he pulls in slowly next to me he was out doing something.  I rolled down the window. And I'm like, you're probably wondering why I'm here. And you know, it was a little awkward. He humored us and came on. He came on one of our first like, first guest, I think, yeah, Chuck Clough  5:22  well, no, ever first, but he was in the first 50. I think he's very nice guy. Matt York  5:28  When did you start doing this? 2016? Chuck Clough  5:30  Yes, very good. Okay. Can you reached out to us pretty close to when we started Matt York  5:34  After after the globe article? When I saw the article on the globe, and then I started listening to it, Chuck  5:39  to be honest, you you're one of the first people to actually reach out to us to come on. . And so you've been on our list for forever. Yeah. And it's been like, I've been like, kind of putting, like all the people that we've been meaning that you have on there, like starred. You've been starred forever. So I'm so glad we finally got you, especially since we had booked Couple weeks ago and then I had some stuff to deal with and yeah so we did we can so I'm glad we it wasn't like another year so so it's happening right the sites have it's happening you've been started by Chuck more than once you were started here I am Here you are and we don't have enough you know white male singer songwriter zones yeah no that's that's a real major problem for us But but thank you for coming on and thank you for taking the trip I you know, I didn't realize you were from Pembroke that's a long Matt York  6:32  Yeah, no, I do a lot of driving my friends so let's Chuck Clough  6:35  I guess you used to it Ronnie  6:36  Want some bug spray stuff. I might put it right on your neck Chuck Clough  6:39  you guys getting a bit you get your hates that no, so far. I'm good. I'm not I saw a song right there but it's not gonna bite. Yeah, yeah, they're friendly around here. These are Concord mosquitoes. Unknown Speaker  6:50  The Sudbury mosquitoes only have to worry about with or with a AAA. Ronnie  6:55  AAA is bad.Have you ever heard of AAA? Chuck Clough  6:59  You can get sick from them but they're also change your tire. Matt York  7:02  So in our town like it all the other towns around us, they're all like banning swipe. Yeah, it's a sport like our town. It's like that hasn't reached that level. So they're still allowing it. Chuck Clough  7:13  Yeah, I think this is this is rock and roll right here. We are here. We're live surrounded by deadly mosquitoes. Okay, so let's actually talk about you. So well first of all you have your beautiful heart. Yeah, just came out. Yep. And you have a CD release coming up at the end of this month. Right? Correct. 28thof the lizard lounge. Right? Yeah, my favorite places to go. Matt York  7:40  Yeah, me too. It is. Yeah, I'm excited about it. My my wife and I actually met there 18 years ago. She wasn't musician and she's playing bass with me on the 28th Chuck Clough  7:50  what is what is her name? Her name is Beth. Her last name is York as well She's playing bass with me that night. We 18 years ago. We played a show together in a club in Worcester. I saw her and I was like, She's cute. I should invite her to open up for us at the lizard lounge. She came and did so. And we met that night. And, like, literally that weekend is the 18th anniversary of our first date. Ronnie  8:17  And what does she play other than she's now playing bass to play guitar before she blows us out? Matt York  8:22  Yes, she played bass years ago and, and she hadn't played in forever and I play probably 95% more than that of my shows just solo. I joke that it's too expensive to have her play bass because we have to get a babysitter every time. You know. Chuck Clough  8:40  It's it's sadly it's cheaper to get a bass player than it is to get a babysitter. Matt York  8:44  That's Amen. So do that every day. Yeah. So it'll be a rich Chuck Clough  8:49  it's a sad state of affairs. Yep. But at least you have a cute bass player that Matt York  8:52  that part is huge and and we get along Chuck Clough  8:55  How long you been playing in the Boston area for now. Matt York  8:57  So Chuck, this might be an interesting story. So I, I don't know if you know a guy named by the name of Rick Berlin who has been around forever. He was in a band called Berlin airlift. And yeah, I know that. I know the name of that. But yeah, so you had a hand in here recently many, many hands studio. Yeah. So I did an album with Dave and he did a bunch of Rick's albums and kind of back then in the 80s, late 80s and stuff Rick and Dave were in a lot of this that same circle. Rick wasn't really a punk though. He was more like talking heads. Lou Reed type world. Yeah. So I met him when I was in high school, and I started playing the clubs when I was a young kid, really young kid like 15. That's what many handed us playing when he was like, 15-16. Yep. So like places like the rat in the channel and been rowdies right when they were closing down. Yeah, I was like, the high school kid play in those places and played in a band called White Iris that was a popular indie punk band in the late 90s. For five or six years, we had a pretty good run. We played all over the East Coast, andAnd then I stopped forever. I stopped for 12 years. Yeah. And oh, and then I started back up four years ago. And I really didn't plan on doing much of anything more than just kind of recording and plan a couple songs in the studio. And this has been the third album now in four years. And I think I've played something like 13 states this year. So yeah, it's definitely not what I intended on doing. Yeah. But it kind of just took off. And really, when I was really young, my dad was just a huge, like, Lou Reed Bowie guy. And so I started off with that when I was like, seven, eight years old. And, you know, when I was a teenage kid, he was the one driving me to these clubs and, you know, unloaded my amp and stuff. And so he turned 70 a few years ago, and, you know, I think he was always a little bit bummed that I stopped doing music and so I really went in there to kind of record a couple songs for his birthday, and it just kind of happens, you know? Ronnie  11:00  It's very heartfelt to hear. And you could tell that that's important to you. And it's rare. My parents when it came to music were they're always supportive of music. But I think that getting back into it would have been tough, a tough sell. That's pretty noble that he feels that he wants you to be involved in that. Matt York  11:19  Yeah. And I think I mean, I, you know, I kind of went, I got away from music and was able to kind of, I have a regular job and I have a wife and kids and I have a mortgage and you know, I mean, I'm able to kind of balance the two things by not sleeping a hell of a lot, I guess. Chuck Clough  11:35  But what do you do for Matt York  11:36  it's a complicated job Chuck, but I worked for sprint.I worked for sprint, but I work I work in a fraud investigator. So I will stay companies that sell our product and try to defraud us and try to identify that and take action. Chuck Clough  11:53  That's pretty cool Matt York  11:55  Yeah, and I work from home so I'm able to kind of sit on my couch and do that and Chuck  12:00  Do undercover stuff and like, you know, it's more finance driven and kind of it's more spreadsheets and Chuck Clough  12:09  you know, I have a friend I went I grew up with actually he works for the FBI. Is that right? Yeah. Matt York  12:15  A few years ago, I was a licensed private investigator, but I let it lapse. So really, yeah, like somehow if you had been an investigator as long as I've been you qualified, and I went, and it was like so lame. I thought it was gonna be like a badge and they gave me like this Xerox piece of paper. Yeah, it was like faded and Chuck Clough  12:31  did you ever get into the the Spencer for hire books or ever be part? Matt York  12:34  Yeah, so I grew up like I loved Hawk. Chuck Clough  12:36  Yeah. And those are my books. I love I read every single one of those books. Yep. You read those books? No, Robert be Parker. Spencer for hire him a TV show. Ronnie  12:46  That's all I remember. Chuck  12:47  Based upon those books. Yeah, but the books were better. Yes. Ronnie  12:51  Maybe they can sponsor this podcast. This is this is Matt York  12:55  Yeah, we're merging with T Mobile. So Amanda, where are you? Really? Yeah. Chuck Clough  12:59  Is that Is that inside information? No, no, that's like, really? Matt York  13:06  I'm not smart enough to know, Ronnie  13:08  what type of fraud we talking about. Chuck Clough  13:09  And have you written a song about this? Ronnie  13:11  Let me answer the first question first. So yeah, is there a song about it? No, Chuck  13:16  my question was much better about it, right? Yes. But that my question was much better than your question. What would I say? You asked him. I like him about what he does for Ronnie  13:25  Well, I think it's interesting. I mean, like, I've never met anybody that does it. But your songs are a little deeper than that. They are. They're not just about iPhone fraud. No, you know, what i what i was taken by was some of the recent stuff you did the addiction song. It's not called that and you're going to tell me in a second what that is. But there's a few on the album, but I lost my baby to the needle to the needle, right? Yep. you put a couple stats on there that are very sobering not to give upon, but that 72,000 people died in 2017. Yeah, we had actually talked about that on an episode we did write music and recovery Matt York  14:32  somebody I think, in fact, I think that's how we reconnected because I forget who it was that you had on was the Maureen Cavenaugh, Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. The woman that's in the video for the last Yeah. She's very close with Maureen and really very responsible for Ronnie  14:46  because they're real people. Matt York  14:47  Yeah, so the people in the video are in both in recovery and they both run sober homes and there are a couple themselves now to me. Ronnie  14:55  That's amazing, because I think I saw it in Jed's article or was it Jed Gottlieb or something? Nobody wrote an article on you. Yep, that was really interesting. Because, you know, you can have these messages that are like really poignant. Yeah, about something as powerful as opiates and addiction, but at the same time, like you always think they're actors. And yeah, these people are like, a real real going through this real start how therapeutic it might, it must have been. I don't know. It was in the middle of that. Matt York  15:22  So a couple things is it was really funny because we literally met them in front of an Nantasket , the beach there. It was, like November. It's freezing cold in the morning. We met them in a parking lot. We spent maybe an hour and a half with them, and we've never seen them again. But we suddenly kind of created this thing together and that's evergreen. Yeah, totally. And you know, I sent them the song I actually just like put like a Craigslist I sent it a couple different spots trying to find people. And she the girl in the videos sent me the email saying listen, this I'm the person to do this. She had no acting experience. Right and I don't drink but my dad joined a when I was about eight, nine years old and, and he would take me to a meetings. So when I was like eight or nine I'd be hearing these people get up and tell these stories that I was like holy shit like Drinking crazy, right. And so I was kind of always aware of it. And, you know, I drank a little bit when I was in my 20s. But I was never a big drinker and ever, but I was, you know, if you do music long enough, you see this stuff, you know, you see addiction in all different forms. So the album that I put out before this was really about alcoholism, and just kind of having been away from the clubs for so long. And then going back in like, Oh, my God, like, I forgot how crazy this? Yes, yeah, every day, we recorded probably seven or eight songs that are really about addiction in that world. It's not a happy album by any stretch. But Chuck Clough  16:48  no, but I mean, you know, the thing is when you write when you go out to write songs about such a powerful topic, it can sometimes be contrived.You know, it's like the trying too hard to be, you know, to make this story into this song. I make one. Matt York  17:07  Just say one thing you said about how contrived. So I spent a lot of years away from music and literally years where I didn't pick up a guitar at all. Yeah. And my wife and kids and I were at the finish line during the marathon bombing. Yeah, we were able to kind of get out of there. And our kids were young, and whatever. That was six, six years ago.Again, and I remember, like, I went home, and like, within two or three days, I had a song about it like it all of a sudden, it just came out, you know, and it was such an interesting thing. And I had been away from music and Randy, who runs at woods and used to run TT to bears years ago. She was running Johnny DS at the time, and I was like, Listen, Randy, I don't do music anymore. I see you're doing a benefit. And I'd love to just come and play a couple. I want to play this song. So she was awesome. And let me do it. You know, it's kind of like the one time I started that I kind of came out and played in it. You know, I've never released it or recorded it or anything, butWas it made me realize I could still do it if I wanted to? Yeah. And Ronnie  18:05  so that was the trigger actually that part of it rushed back into music. Yep. Well, that's a powerful terrible thing that you know, it's always amazing to hear some of the little the silver lining come out of some of these awful things. Yeah, you know what I like about Matt's music is also the the harmonies that are double in some of the doubling that you do in the production of it. But I love the effect. I've always loved the effect in rock and and pop and others, similar genres. You connect the same melody and unison. Yeah. And the effect that that gives is really, it could be haunting, but it could also just be very cerebral and is very soothing. Is that something that you experimented with one day and said You liked it? Or have you always come from? Matt York  18:52  Well, it's funny because when I was younger, and I had a noisier band, we were just a three piece. There was no one else in my band that could sing So there really weren't harmonies in it. And then when I came back and started doing this, I didn't have anybody else to sing them. You know, like I was in the studio there was nobody else with me I was pretty much doing all the instruments. So I just kind of experimented with doing it myself and I would have preferred honestly to have had someone else do it. The album I did before this one I did with Dave Brophy, who's will Bailey's drummer and the Ruby Rose Fox album and he's done a bunch of stuff and so he and I have worked together on some of the harmonies I think, I can't remember he may have sang some of them actually, I love doing it and this is double though to you don't just do harmonies? Yeah, it's double vocal us in a lot of times. I'll split the harmony in parts. Yeah, yeah. No. And then it comes back to a unison Yeah, right. And then it's funny when I do them live because when I just have the one voice like it's, it's almost like you have two different melodies to choose from. Chuck Clough  19:49  So depending on how strong your voices at night, you can choose the lower one. Matt York  19:51  Yeah, exactly. I'm on the fourth night in a row then I'm going love the feeling. Chuck Clough  19:56  Yeah, you know, I always love to do this, but the whole Oh you sound like so and so. But and especially with I need my can reduce my readers. Ronnie  20:08  Those new again. Chuck Clough  20:09  Do you like them? Ronnie  20:10  You get new glasses every week? Chuck  20:11  Oh no cause I lose them. That's why I lose them and I Ronnie  20:15  just lost the $80 pair that you paid last night Chuck Clough  20:17  I lost these exact pair. Ronnie  20:19  No, they were tortoise shell type. Chuck Clough  20:21  That's what I have. I have those still. Ronnie  20:24  Those are great. Those last ones. Yeah. Glad you didn't lose those. Chuck Clough  20:27  I have those. Ronnie  20:28  But I really liked those and you look good in them. Chuck Clough  20:30  You don't like these? Ronnie  20:31  No. Chuck Clough  20:31  Why not? Ronnie  20:32  I don't like it as much as the other ones. Those are okay. Chuck Clough  20:35  Well, this is my Clark Kent. What do you think, Joe? No. Matt, what do you think? Matt York  20:40  I thought they looked fun. I'm not gonna lie. Ronnie  20:43  I think you're fine too. But the other ones he's he looks great. Like, yeah, Chuck Clough  20:47  so the Ronnie  20:49  know who he sounds like. Chuck Clough  20:51  Steve Earle, man, you've got that, especially especially that song a Permanent Crush. I really heard Steve It's almost sounds like a first take of whatever song you saying. It's just very natural True, which is what I reminds me of Steve. Oh, it's very raw that Matt York  22:03  Yeah, so I had never listened to him when I was younger. And then I found him maybe 20 years ago. And I was like, wait, well, how did I miss? Yeah, I know I missed on. I didn't get into late recently to like that I missed him. Chuck  22:15  But it's not even. It's not even just the voice which you know, you can kind of get that low register voice too. But it's also the guitar playing it's the entire song. And not only that, there was also the other side actually in a previous album on my own. Yeah. Was it was it Boston, Texas. Is that the one or no? No. Between the Bars between the bar Yeah, yep. That was like a little little Elliott Smith in there, too. I don't know if you know Elliott Smith. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, between the bars.Between the bars, Michael, I wonder if you did a cover. Matt York  22:44  I thought it was so clever. And then Chuck Clough  22:47  afterwards, but no, no, you know, Elliott Smith. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not well, he's a song calledbetween the bars, I guess you would say so I thought there was a reference to that bus. Different reference. Matt York  22:58  Yeah, it was just coincidence though, that I stole it by accident. Chuck Clough  23:01  He was such an influence on me. Yeah, he died. He was such a frickin talent. Yeah. Such a talent. Ronnie  23:13  So what is the story with Boston, Texas? So I'm just curious if it's not a town in Texas, right? Yeah, there is. Matt York  23:19  There is a tiny little town called Austin, Texas. But so when I was a kid, when I was about 10, we moved to Texas. We've grown up in Boston, and we moved to Texas as a family for about a year when I was down there briefly, I kind of got hints of, you know, back then there was no rock'n'roll music down there. And there was no country music back here. So, you know, I would start to hear like Willie and Waylon and people who I was, I was too young to know, but I just kind of would hear these influences. And then so as I got older and started writing, I kind of found that Boston music was was what I love the most. But I kept coming back to these kind of texts, influences kept kind of pulling on my songwriting like Steve Earle. And you know Townes, Van Zandt. People like that Billy Joe shaver so the songs that on that first album that Boston tech Selma really just kind of a mishmash. Yeah, Boston and Texas in Ronnie  24:08  that town is kind of very indicative of like that your whole experience with this song. September, Matt York  24:15  September is coming soon. Yep. Ronnie  25:00  It's one it's my it's my favorite month it's a tough month is some deaths in our in our my friends and family. But there's also some birthdays and some amazing celebrations too. Yep. So September is the start of school and just something about the, like just coming to America. Yeah. And actually I'm Jewish. So it's like, you know, Russia, China is the new year of September in October. Yep. And you celebrate the new year for that. Matt York  25:23  I feel like I'm a pretty normal person. Like I'm not a depressed person. I'm not an alcoholic. I don't have any of these types of issues. But I write about those things September's coming soon to me, just always many people are affected by the summer ending, especially here in New England, where you just prepare for kind of shutting down, you know, being stuck in the indoors for a few months. And Ronnie  25:45  I think it's a rebirth. Yeah, I like the weather too. Yep. I don't think his summer is that great. I mean, I think it's sometimes too hot. You know, like Chuck, don't you like like that make it start making that fire. Chuck  25:55  If I go on vacation in the summer, even if it's like for three days, like June I'm done. I'm done. I'm ready for fall so yeah falls in lov e the smell of like, yeah the smell the wood burning and and you wrote a song about that bring on the winter I did Yes, yes. Ronnie  26:13  he went past September and he wrote a song about bringing on the winter so you want Chuck Clough  26:17  I mean, I liked the winter but that was just really kind of I was looking for something that rhymed with splinter. I don't know. Ronnie  26:26  Sorry to Bring up the weather. But you know, I just like that freakin song. Chuck Clough  26:29  When you got back into playing music Did you get back into playing solo and doing acoustic guitar not getting back into a band? for a specific reason? Was it literally just now it's just gonna be easier to play by me. That's what I did. I mean, it was easier for me to play by myself. Pick up an acoustic guitar and try and get a band back together with two small kids, right? Matt York  26:46  Yeah, almost all of them I play solo. And if I had a bunch of guys that I was friends with that could just at the drop of a hat, play for next to nothing and just show up and be awesome. I would do that. I just don't you know, and so I mean, I Live on the south shore, my drummer lives in Manchester, New Hampshire, you know, so it's like, we're lucky to have a rehearsal before we play a gig. And I like to travel and obviously traveling on the road when you know, you're probably gonna lose money anyway. Yeah, to bring a band just ensures that you're not only going to lose money, but you're going to be very uncomfortable probably on the road, Chuck Clough  27:21  getting back into, or even starting for the first time being a solo artist. Yep. What was the most challenging thing for you? Because I started doing it myself. It was a learning experience trying to figure out where my strengths were. Yep. What did you do improve on, and plus my voice. And playing has changed since I was a kid, and especially my voice. Matt York  27:39  I don't have the higher range that I have when I was younger. But I was a big smoker when I was younger, and I don't smoke. So like I was just down in Nashville last week, and I did like four nights in a row. But that fourth night, I feel a little pull on my voice. But I feel like almost every time now I can go out and I'm going to give the same level of performance every time. So control to Ronnie  28:00  I've always been a piano player mostly and it's like I'm not going to lug around a piano and do a solo thing but I've always envied someone with it, you know a good command of their guitar and then they match their vocal to the chord the rhythm they're reading off the audience and Matt York  28:16  that's the biggest thing showing up in playing gigs and not knowing exactly what the audience is going to be especially like I opened up for a lot of national Acts where I joke all the time when I do that that I'm like there to just be like a good appetizer right you know like I'm if I'm a quality like clam chowder a buffalo wings to them then great right they're not there to see me they're there to have steak sometimes I'll come out and just based on the audience I can feel like you know I can do the kind of the listening room tender sad songs thing or they want more of an upbeat warm up and yeah, warm up the evening the ability to kind of just be solo and change on like, I don't write setlist I just will go out there and transition if I yeah. Ronnie  28:56  Well, do you find that like there's a part of you thatfeels that if someone's getting filled up on their clam chowder, they're going to taste it. It's going to be good. But if they if they find that they're like they don't need as much steak, because they filled up on the clam chowder, that's a goal of yours. Chuck Clough  29:13  This is right up Ron's alley. This whole food analogy. Yeah, he does this. Yes. With the ingredients. And the recipe. You're all you do all that. Ronnie  29:22  I think the fact that Matt came up with that analogy, Chuck Clough  29:25  I'm just saying it's right up your alley. You dont have to get defensive Ronnie  29:28  No, no, I'm not am I? Matt York  30:16  Well, you had Carissa Johnson on here at one point. We did yeah, rocks, man. She's insane. So we did the rumble together a few years ago and we played a few gigs together. That was when she won a couple years ago. I was in my band was in it that year. So I did the rumble in 2000. I did it in 2017. And oh, wow, really crazy. And Jed Gottlieb actually wrote this article with me and two or three others that had had this giant gap. Yeah, and yeah, what was crazy to me is when I think back, I was probably 20, early 20s. When I did it back then, the entire club was not only packed but it was packed with people in their early 20s. Oh, yeah. When I played it two years ago. Chuck Clough  30:57  These with you? Yeah. Matt York  31:00  like none you know and and even Krista who is that age? Yeah her fans Aren't you know i mean the show but they're telling that's it yeah they're people that love that Boston punk music that CO yeah she she's doing what we love, but it's not like you know a club full of 22 year olds You know, Chuck Clough  31:18  you're excited about your CD release I am and this came out just what August 4, right? It's just released. Matt York  31:24  Yeah. Yeah went up on Spotify. I think right around the time I wasn't sure what I was going to do for an actual release and that kind of fell in place to do the lizard Okay. Oh, Chuck  31:33  who's opening for you? Matt York  31:34  So we're actually starting the night because all of my friends are so old that I was like put us on early because Okay, the band old jack does they do a residency the last Saturday of every month so you opening for them? So they Yeah, they're playing in the middle slot and in a band called The I want your headline? The I want you I like those guys. Yeah, so that's good. That's cool. That's great. I ain't going to be my high school. 30th Reunion. Chuck Clough  31:56  Are you allowed back Ronnie  31:58  What's it? Yes, I am loud. Butyou're gonna have your CDs out. And like an actual CD release physical artifact, I will give you a physical CD. And then do you do you have like downloads and stuff like that or how does that work? Yeah, so usually Chuck Clough  32:13  you new to this music business right now Ronnie  32:15  I'm wondering what Matt is, Matt York  32:17  what I usually do is, uh, you know, I sell t shirts and then I'll give a download code or I'll give a CD and I'm gonna download card with it. So I sell more t shirts Chuck Clough  32:26  Do you ever do  vinyl. Matt York  32:27  I just don't have enough people I care about the make it I can't justify the upfront costs, Chuck Clough  32:34  you know, we have an album that we're waiting to get out for dead. And I want even if I do like, hundred pressing Yeah. So you thinking you want to do vinyl? Well, just like 100 friends you're having to be expensive, but it'll just be something to have. I'm never going to put an album out like IL So why don't we do that? We should. Ronnie  32:52  Alright, so back to Matt. So Matt York  32:53  So can I just get one final thing? Yeah, so I was not this last time but one of the times I was down in Nashville, I went into jack White's thing. Unknown Speaker  33:00  Man, he's got that that that little like phone booth where you can record in and then it automatically produces a vinyl. Right? Neil Young made an album that way and stuff. little teeny vinyl. Within like an hour. Like no was like within five minutes like what just makes it it presses i Chuck  33:16  is it? 33 and a half 33 1/3? Matt York  33:18  No, it's like it's like a 4045 not a Ronnie  33:21  45 but the Chuck Clough  33:21  78? Matt York  33:23  I don't even know what it is. Ronnie  33:24  It's a 62 Chuck  33:26  Well, it's got to be either 4578 or 33. Matt York  33:28  So I will send you I will text Ronnie  33:31  because you got to play it in your variable, but it's actually it's just it's a record. Yeah, Chuck  33:35  but you want to be able to listen to it so that Matt York  33:37  so I haven't been able to figure out how to listen to it on my record player, but I have friends. That is funny. No one can listen. No, Chuck Clough  33:43  but that's it's got to be one of those three. He wouldn't just make up. Yeah, Matt York  33:47  I'm sure it is. I just don't remember but well, we actually do young jack white went on I think Jimmy Fallon or Kimball and they brought the machine on the Ronnie  34:00  Fallon that's a Fallon thing. Matt York  34:01  Yeah, I'll send you the link to it. I have watched it but you have like two minutes and 20 seconds and then the machine shuts off. Like Chuck Clough  34:09  there's only one side to it. Yep. Unknown Speaker  34:11  That's so cool, man. Thank you for doing this. Chuck Clough  34:15  With us, and you play us a couple songs would be happening right. Cool. Hold on a second for a second. Yeah Unknown Speaker  40:07  We would like to thank Matt for his support of ATB over the years and for sitting with us you can check out Matt's music and get his latest album at Matt York music. com You should also check out the great food at Adelaide is in West Concord, Massachusetts Adelina is an organic and authentic Mexican restaurant brought to you from the team behind Woods Hill table much like their sister restaurant Adelina is pastured a plate serving only grass fed and organic meats from their own farm, the farm at Woods Hill for more information and for reservations, go to Adelaide a conquered.com. And one last plug for you to vote for a TB podcast of the year at the Boston Music Awards. Please go to Boston Music Awards. com forward slash vote and make your voice heard. Thank you very much. Finally, please go to above the basement calm where you can sign up for our newsletter. Listen and subscribe to our podcast later.our Facebook page, follow us on Twitter and look at all the nice pictures we post on Instagram. We are everywhere. On behalf of Ronnie and myself. Thanks for listening. Tell your friends and remember Boston music like its history is unique. Transcribed by https://otter.ai 

3xO, The Triple Option Podcast, 2019 College Football Season, Law Smith, Chad Sweeting, Steve Fantetti Sponsors: Grasshopper TryGrasshopper.com/Sweat Freshbooks GoFreshBooks.com/Sweat Warby Parker Glasses and Sunglasses WarbyParkerTrial.com/Sweat Transcribed by Otter AI https://otter.ai/referrals/AVPIT85N Left Unedited by Law Smith Law Smith 0:01 One we're live on our Facebook page three XO We are the triple option Podcast. I am your host Law Smith, and I'm trying to produce in host and that beautiful guy over there on camera number two or white girth camera. That's Chad sweet, sweet things. Let's do some plugs real quick Sweeting, not sweet things. No, no poor lives, right? Correct. Let's do some sponsors real quick, grasshopper, try grasshopper.com forward slash, like get $50 off a phone line. scalable phone line. You can have an app on your phone that has your business line. Don't have Google Voice. Don't be a job. Roni tried grasshopper.com slash sweat like key sweat. Get in there. You get $50 off and it hooks us up with that's how you that's how you can help the show. You help the show? Maybe we get better guests on maybe get coach Brown. You know, and other sponsors go fresh books.com forward slash let you run your own business. You got your own side hustle. Drop QuickBooks drop zero go fresh books.com forward slash sweat. That'll give you the hook up have a direct deposit next business day. That's what the other two don't do. You know that? Sir. Go sir. I talking to me. Yeah. Did you know that? no direct deposit. Unknown Speaker 1:24 I'm forward slash way. You go there. We get a hook. Unknown Speaker 1:30 Oprah and then Warby Parker Warby Parker. trial.com, forward slash sweat. Don't get ripped off by the big, big, big eyeglass where where you're paying 300 $500 for glasses. Law Smith 1:48 They'll send you five pairs you pick it out if I can find some for my horse head. Unknown Speaker 1:56 forward slash sweat. And then you know we are in the sweat lodge studio sweat lodge Unknown Speaker 2:02 dot studio. Unknown Speaker 2:06 That is my digital agency if you need any nerd help, and if you need any business consulting help from a legal perspective, Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:13 Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:18 crushing it out in the Unknown Speaker 2:19 field. But fantastic illegal your business are fine. Unknown Speaker 2:22 That's fantastic legal com Unknown Speaker 2:26 now on goodness. Let's Unknown Speaker 2:33 I'm feeling it. I'm feeling good. As I'm trying to find our intro. Unknown Speaker 3:01 Ah, God Almighty. This is triple option. We're back. Weird week because we got to do it kind of. We got to figure out when to do this podcast. Unknown Speaker 3:20 Everybody's kind of messed up. I apologize. Unknown Speaker 3:26 That we said we redo it Monday at one and I pick that one up. I blame it on being sick or working too much burnout. Whatever it is. Chad How you feeling? I'm feeling great man. Unknown Speaker 3:39 feel great. Ready to talk some football? Unknown Speaker 3:44 Saying I think it gives context to the listeners. Sure. Well, I mean, I like to go like crazy. You don't to go by minute by minute but Unknown Speaker 3:51 well, okay, so I should put away my this is my log I was doing this. Unknown Speaker 3:55 entire week. You are an attorney. This isn't an eight hour long podcast, right? Unknown Speaker 3:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chad Sweeting 4:01 Give me all your minutes. Yes. So so no. So as you know, you know, Florida was off this weekend. The big game was Auburn Oregon, which we'll get into a little bit later. your alma mater, Auburn. Unknown Speaker 4:13 So actually Unknown Speaker 4:18 you're busy with your kids and whatnot. But to my Unknown Speaker 4:21 dad, I wanted to. Unknown Speaker 4:23 It's tough if you're places and kids. Unknown Speaker 4:28 And then my former co host of this podcast, Brandon T. Gleason. He's comedian friend, but he's my best friend too. He's in town tells me Thursday. I am coming in town from LA. My wife and I will be in the area where this we recorded this. I'll be there for the FSU game and you're like, Oh, cool. Thanks for the heads up now. I can't get a babysitter. Now. I can't go over to your place. Unknown Speaker 4:50 Yeah, not clear the air but football's about you know making plans and friends. Unknown Speaker 4:58 live here downtown Tampa and we have a pool and see came over in the clubhouse has a pool table and we sat there and watched Florida State Boise was you know got moved to noon for those who don't know it was originally scheduled for South Unknown Speaker 5:16 Korea and it got moved to noon. And Unknown Speaker 5:22 that game was on a seven and then Unknown Speaker 5:28 yeah, and there wasn't a good Unknown Speaker 5:34 Florida State game was a good game. I thought well, it's a force they came out of the gate. Unknown Speaker 5:42 got off turnovers it seemed like they're scoring off at every Unknown Speaker 5:48 job they were scoring on every single play so I kind of Unknown Speaker 5:54 was the score to the very end of the half and it was like 30 Unknown Speaker 6:00 the favored in Boise State Unknown Speaker 6:04 they were seemed like every time they ran the ball Unknown Speaker 6:10 if they had not turned it over Unknown Speaker 6:16 I'm sorry Boise State came back and won. And I am happy about that because in our pixelized all both took I did yeah you take one team I root for him to have right here. The evidence is right here. You took Florida the when I got the W for that one. Really? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 6:42 Second half, and Unknown Speaker 6:48 side like it's like just a methodical kind of EO Yep, six Unknown Speaker 6:56 bye for now Have you heard this story? Unknown Speaker 7:02 DP said that the the problem Unknown Speaker 7:10 getting tired Unknown Speaker 7:14 yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:19 was to say that the one that Unknown Speaker 7:24 commented it today or yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:30 but what scarless it's a shit show there in Florida State That doesn't even make sense as like a way to save yourself from being Unknown Speaker 7:42 no no I was talking about Unknown Speaker 7:46 Yeah, I think Unknown Speaker 7:50 the charger that needs to be fired you know and I feel bad for Steve Unknown Speaker 7:56 well it's been the year Unknown Speaker 8:08 Southern grandma says you know bless your little heart It's kind of like Unknown Speaker 8:14 bless your heart means yes it Unknown Speaker 8:20 but yeah so that that was a good game. Where did you see the Unknown Speaker 8:26 of that boy Unknown Speaker 8:30 Florida State players that Unknown Speaker 8:34 they're all about five yards away Unknown Speaker 8:40 at this ball you haven't seen it Unknown Speaker 8:44 pretty funny I'm not a huge Unknown Speaker 8:48 visual medium and we got Unknown Speaker 8:52 this podcast but I was like Unknown Speaker 8:56 dropped the ball was Unknown Speaker 9:00 I think so I think it was towards Unknown Speaker 9:08 there's one called brass tap down here to franchise Unknown Speaker 9:14 but it was like it doesn't matter if it's a sport Unknown Speaker 9:20 I'm you know everybody's already there Unknown Speaker 9:26 my All right, I think Unknown Speaker 9:32 they're like drunk like little drunk people basically Unknown Speaker 9:39 don't cry really easily Unknown Speaker 9:44 college all over again the freshman year Unknown Speaker 9:50 it was good but if you walk in and say oh everybody's sitting in a pub table eating the IK Unknown Speaker 9:58 so I had to like sit next Unknown Speaker 10:04 fine but it was one of those things where Unknown Speaker 10:08 he unless Unknown Speaker 10:13 I gotta go let me let me Unknown Speaker 10:18 yeah good to catch up I mean that's really Unknown Speaker 10:24 is that kind of reason to beat up? And so I think even if Unknown Speaker 10:32 like you just go Unknown Speaker 10:36 exactly you know otherwise Unknown Speaker 10:42 go to New Orleans you know if I Unknown Speaker 10:46 can put out this pitch from Tuesday all the Unknown Speaker 10:52 way um what else what other Unknown Speaker 10:58 Oregon and Auburn pulls out the win yet Unknown Speaker 11:06 giddy for Unknown Speaker 11:10 now I think when you have kids you decide man Unknown Speaker 11:16 you're watching them I know best. Unknown Speaker 11:21 But it Unknown Speaker 11:26 has Is it coming in with the hype of other years Unknown Speaker 11:34 out there where you're just like I just Unknown Speaker 11:40 been what I I've been telling you Unknown Speaker 11:46 know who this guy is. Chad could do Unknown Speaker 11:52 crush it you murder Unknown Speaker 11:54 rate actually lock me up. pedophile Unknown Speaker 12:00 but the actor Unknown Speaker 12:08 was fine. He just got caught jerking it. I think people think he Unknown Speaker 12:14 but he he just was that adult theatre. Unknown Speaker 12:20 Jared Fogle area Yeah, anyway. Unknown Speaker 12:30 But all Brynn game so a bonus looks like a Unknown Speaker 12:38 like donuts? Yeah, like it's medicine. Unknown Speaker 12:41 Okay, like it's oxy 10 Unknown Speaker 12:42 may cause constipation I'm Unknown Speaker 12:44 just going to get these needs to short it needs Unknown Speaker 12:50 like one word Okay, I like it I like yeah Unknown Speaker 12:56 that are super excited that I'm I get a boner at the gym. Unknown Speaker 13:04 Your mom motorcycle for some reason. Unknown Speaker 13:10 That cool. Unknown Speaker 13:15 Man, he looked like it Unknown Speaker 13:21 by the fourth quarter. really calm down to like Cliff Kingsbury just very chill the high the eyelids are a little bit Unknown Speaker 13:36 nicer kind of thing like that's Unknown Speaker 13:39 he called so much down now. Unknown Speaker 13:45 And I Unknown Speaker 13:50 think in the second half just just Unknown Speaker 13:57 I think it 27 the first half or something like that. Alright, sorry about that. So first off though he's 110 total it was something that was so offset as a fan to watch or a casual fan because it's like you know he's pumping out Unknown Speaker 14:16 they're not like long gains they're just Unknown Speaker 14:20 they're like the but Unknown Speaker 14:24 I think and then Unknown Speaker 14:28 credit for stepping up Unknown Speaker 14:32 but now I'm going to say it like that forever. Unknown Speaker 14:36 Williams the Bruce Unknown Speaker 14:40 brown ball he came back to it adjusted Unknown Speaker 14:47 with five seconds later adjusted on the fly Unknown Speaker 14:52 ball got it Unknown Speaker 14:57 did a great job i Unknown Speaker 15:02 for i think we were Unknown Speaker 15:08 good marketing tactic Unknown Speaker 15:12 or I don't think Unknown Speaker 15:16 extra any better Unknown Speaker 15:20 you know regardless of whether they deserve either yeah but yeah yeah I mean to your point and we always Unknown Speaker 15:28 before those last two touchdown drives Unknown Speaker 15:34 his final stats even with those last I mean I'll give them a lot of credit like for a freshman a true friend Unknown Speaker 15:42 look composed like you said Unknown Speaker 15:46 77 Unknown Speaker 15:51 stats but that fourth quarter that's all Unknown Speaker 15:57 doing like brett farr second year in the second year in green far we like thread the needle run sideways and like throw it into quadruple coverage Unknown Speaker 16:13 like on the left side for him Unknown Speaker 16:18 going on this is gonna be a lot because that I realized Unknown Speaker 16:25 how your year is going to go Unknown Speaker 16:29 the emotional wager that's going to Unknown Speaker 16:33 play a big team or your the marquee Unknown Speaker 16:38 does this throughout this game Unknown Speaker 16:45 this could be a shitty season Unknown Speaker 16:49 this like Unknown Speaker 16:53 that shows a lot of Unknown Speaker 16:57 as a college quarterback and then Oregon Unknown Speaker 17:01 did they play Unknown Speaker 17:05 is it crazy? Unknown Speaker 17:09 I always forget Unknown Speaker 17:13 like a defensive line Unknown Speaker 17:17 guy that's like Unknown Speaker 17:21 McClendon like Unknown Speaker 17:29 Robert Herbert Unknown Speaker 17:33 game that Bob turned up like Unknown Speaker 17:45 this but Unknown Speaker 17:53 you know ESPN does the wind probability and Unknown Speaker 17:59 being on Unknown Speaker 18:03 boys this Auburn did not Unknown Speaker 18:07 so they were Unknown Speaker 18:11 first quarter Unknown Speaker 18:15 for a Unknown Speaker 18:19 little bit because Unknown Speaker 18:23 he is and he's a Unknown Speaker 18:30 break Unknown Speaker 18:35 point be Unknown Speaker 18:39 like 50 Unknown Speaker 18:43 died yeah so Unknown Speaker 18:49 we pick oh and let me know Unknown Speaker 18:53 wasn't that great? Unknown Speaker 18:57 It was kind of sad Unknown Speaker 19:01 we're going to zoom to one more Unknown Speaker 19:09 little bit more this week Unknown Speaker 19:13 when that exciting Unknown Speaker 19:17 bomb but Unknown Speaker 19:21 by three and a half I'm good Unknown Speaker 19:25 yes Stephen Unknown Speaker 19:29 Law picked Oregon Unknown Speaker 19:33 it's not my fan of God Unknown Speaker 19:38 Tim Cook's Unknown Speaker 19:41 three times Unknown Speaker 19:45 so you still lost yeah Unknown Speaker 19:49 brought it up Unknown Speaker 19:57 like it Unknown Speaker 20:05 he's not like Unknown Speaker 20:09 anyway okay Unknown Speaker 20:13 get on next week Unknown Speaker 20:17 USA Unknown Speaker 20:25 to me up very well in Unknown Speaker 20:33 both confirmation Unknown Speaker 20:41 Wisconsin so Unknown Speaker 20:47 Sterling 01 well on the Unknown Speaker 20:59 Jonathan Taylor crushed it really Unknown Speaker 21:07 easily our number one tech and the unfortunate Unknown Speaker 21:21 number one of us Steve USF Unknown Speaker 21:33 I don't want him Unknown Speaker 21:37 big some kind of case Unknown Speaker 21:41 49 to zero Unknown Speaker 21:45 hundred 32 receiving okay Unknown Speaker 21:57 that's a Lamborghini Unknown Speaker 22:01 Not too shabby Unknown Speaker 22:05 think Charlie strong Unknown Speaker 22:09 they got Unknown Speaker 22:13 their calendar right Unknown Speaker 22:21 you're still Unknown Speaker 22:25 like up and coming coach Unknown Speaker 22:31 do this and Unknown Speaker 22:35 this is the first round Unknown Speaker 22:39 you can't get over Unknown Speaker 22:43 project but Unknown Speaker 22:47 all the Pisces Unknown Speaker 22:51 too excited any anything overall Unknown Speaker 22:55 25th in the rankings Unknown Speaker 23:05 mixed teams because they're Unknown Speaker 23:13 the guys that alright Unknown Speaker 23:33 another interesting Unknown Speaker 23:37 in the ranking after oh Unknown Speaker 23:41 that's not feel great. Unknown Speaker 23:45 Now three spots I think Unknown Speaker 23:53 I chose them as Unknown Speaker 23:57 the most David season Unknown Speaker 24:05 here pretty soon Unknown Speaker 24:09 I think the Unknown Speaker 24:13 thing else Unknown Speaker 24:17 game maybe LLC Unknown Speaker 24:21 yeah Unknown Speaker 24:25 john was awesome what Unknown Speaker 24:33 17 Unknown Speaker 24:37 go in Unknown Speaker 24:42 I don't know if they're going Unknown Speaker 24:45 to do the half that's Unknown Speaker 24:49 not look great. Unknown Speaker 24:53 Casual Unknown Speaker 24:57 Yeah, I'm killing mom Unknown Speaker 25:01 like last week Unknown Speaker 25:06 because I picked up Unknown Speaker 25:09 on these two Unknown Speaker 25:13 trying to do that while you were talking Unknown Speaker 25:17 extend to Unknown Speaker 25:21 will text them later Yeah. Unknown Speaker 25:25 So let's go Unknown Speaker 25:30 as you said cleanses Unknown Speaker 25:33 MM I just I Unknown Speaker 25:41 not Unknown Speaker 25:46 know and believe me Unknown Speaker 25:51 that's a good motivator motive Unknown Speaker 25:59 why man I saw with Unknown Speaker 26:03 some shade Unknown Speaker 26:07 at least like Unknown Speaker 26:15 had these guys come in like Unknown Speaker 26:23 surviving the SEC whatever best Unknown Speaker 26:31 than any other program guy Unknown Speaker 26:43 college football Unknown Speaker 26:47 Seattle you know Unknown Speaker 26:55 dad they pay for the rights Unknown Speaker 27:01 there's Unknown Speaker 27:05 Florida State was Unknown Speaker 27:13 gonna say Clemson is gonna win head to head or straight up Unknown Speaker 27:19 tomorrow score game Unknown Speaker 27:23 go to Texas a&m here Unknown Speaker 27:27 no information Unknown Speaker 27:31 ever was going on with Unknown Speaker 27:35 a headphone ears Unknown Speaker 27:39 settled down a bit Unknown Speaker 27:43 football news you know Unknown Speaker 27:51 your mental might as a coach Unknown Speaker 27:55 type to me there's Unknown Speaker 28:00 he's not brought up in the new Unknown Speaker 28:03 you gotta look at what Unknown Speaker 28:08 kind of thing Unknown Speaker 28:11 Michael Lewis Perkins Unknown Speaker 28:15 and the Houston Rockets a Unknown Speaker 28:23 new story Unknown Speaker 28:27 but knows though so Unknown Speaker 28:31 let's go with LSU number six Ellis Unknown Speaker 28:37 star start Unknown Speaker 28:41 six and a half Unknown Speaker 28:49 talking through Unknown Speaker 28:53 if I were a betting man I would Unknown Speaker 28:57 because I think this Unknown Speaker 29:01 that LLC will probably win Unknown Speaker 29:05 not points but it's Unknown Speaker 29:09 I think Joe Unknown Speaker 29:13 YFTD Unknown Speaker 29:18 up until I mean last year up until the Florida game he Unknown Speaker 29:23 does have a great arm like Unknown Speaker 29:31 I talked about stuff in the Unknown Speaker 29:35 site the Unknown Speaker 29:39 I don't see that it's Unknown Speaker 29:44 I guess it's forecasting oh I see it Unknown Speaker 29:49 yeah be hot. I mean LC was no stranger to heat Unknown Speaker 29:55 little bit drier Unknown Speaker 30:00 go ahead and say Unknown Speaker 30:08 I just think that like me to defensive job so Unknown Speaker 30:23 the number nine Unknown Speaker 30:27 you to me Unknown Speaker 30:32 how are they YRY Yeah. In that Unknown Speaker 30:47 and everybody else is a mystery as well. There you go. Unknown Speaker 30:57 Very good. Unknown Speaker 31:02 Ah, let's let's Unknown Speaker 31:09 get that Unknown Speaker 31:13 it's kind of like Unknown Speaker 31:22 the Bearcats Unknown Speaker 31:26 UCLA that is oh yeah boss Unknown Speaker 31:41 just on interested Unknown Speaker 31:45 damn Unknown Speaker 31:50 in the book to Cincinnati's credit they look they look Unknown Speaker 31:56 warning Unknown Speaker 32:00 I'm but Unknown Speaker 32:07 there's another Unknown Speaker 32:11 bad go with Unknown Speaker 32:15 good as I just Brian day Unknown Speaker 32:24 I'm gonna go Unknown Speaker 32:27 points on Unknown Speaker 32:31 it just to be a little Unknown Speaker 32:35 16 points Unknown Speaker 32:40 it's Midwestern Unknown Speaker 32:43 very low scoring it's a 12 Unknown Speaker 32:51 games at 12 that Unknown Speaker 32:55 11am Unknown Speaker 33:00 that goes with Unknown Speaker 33:07 when I was looking at Unknown Speaker 33:16 from my league Unknown Speaker 33:20 in the skill position Unknown Speaker 33:24 yeah so just for fun I'd Unknown Speaker 33:27 be remiss if you didn't want the Unknown Speaker 33:35 next this year I think the last Unknown Speaker 33:39 seller just gotten Unknown Speaker 33:44 like a four week Unknown Speaker 33:48 help and I think Unknown Speaker 33:52 teams on the downside that have been Unknown Speaker 34:00 divided Unknown Speaker 34:04 UT Martin FCS Unknown Speaker 34:08 and Steve's Unknown Speaker 34:12 although it Unknown Speaker 34:16 Don't you think he's going to claim it Unknown Speaker 34:20 though he has no time Unknown Speaker 34:24 and he's like like Unknown Speaker 34:28 know anyone from there if Unknown Speaker 34:35 it's like grown up into Unknown Speaker 34:40 just be a magic Unknown Speaker 34:44 do Orlando and then Unknown Speaker 34:51 that's your origin story. Unknown Speaker 34:58 So Unknown Speaker 35:02 Steve's gonna rip to the see Unknown Speaker 35:06 that part Unknown Speaker 35:18 Yeah, it was Unknown Speaker 35:22 and they're just Unknown Speaker 35:26 going anywhere. Unknown Speaker 35:30 To be one of our biggest rivals until we Unknown Speaker 35:34 fight game though. Unknown Speaker 35:38 I have a dilemma. Unknown Speaker 35:42 Talk to my pops Unknown Speaker 35:46 work it Unknown Speaker 35:50 well I thought Unknown Speaker 36:06 college football game and it's Unknown Speaker 36:14 been too Unknown Speaker 36:18 and then I just missed Unknown Speaker 36:22 all that stuff. Also your Unknown Speaker 36:26 efforts he went to us Unknown Speaker 36:34 listening watching tell us Unknown Speaker 36:40 probably answer him. If you got Unknown Speaker 36:46 previewing week three Unknown Speaker 36:50 will get Unknown Speaker 36:54 all that stuff. Unknown Speaker 36:58 of the Unknown Speaker 37:02 I'm dead on the inside. You got Unknown Speaker 37:10 we Unknown Speaker 37:14 drink too much. Don't

3xO, The Triple Option Podcast, 2019 College Football Season, Law Smith, Chad Sweeting, Steve Fantetti Sponsors: Grasshopper TryGrasshopper.com/Sweat Freshbooks GoFreshBooks.com/Sweat Warby Parker Glasses and Sunglasses WarbyParkerTrial.com/Sweat Transcribed by Otter AI https://otter.ai/referrals/AVPIT85N Left Unedited by Law Smith Law Smith 0:01 One we're live on our Facebook page three XO We are the triple option Podcast. I am your host Law Smith, and I'm trying to produce in host and that beautiful guy over there on camera number two or white girth camera. That's Chad sweet, sweet things. Let's do some plugs real quick Sweeting, not sweet things. No, no poor lives, right? Correct. Let's do some sponsors real quick, grasshopper, try grasshopper.com forward slash, like get $50 off a phone line. scalable phone line. You can have an app on your phone that has your business line. Don't have Google Voice. Don't be a job. Roni tried grasshopper.com slash sweat like key sweat. Get in there. You get $50 off and it hooks us up with that's how you that's how you can help the show. You help the show? Maybe we get better guests on maybe get coach Brown. You know, and other sponsors go fresh books.com forward slash let you run your own business. You got your own side hustle. Drop QuickBooks drop zero go fresh books.com forward slash sweat. That'll give you the hook up have a direct deposit next business day. That's what the other two don't do. You know that? Sir. Go sir. I talking to me. Yeah. Did you know that? no direct deposit. Unknown Speaker 1:24 I'm forward slash way. You go there. We get a hook. Unknown Speaker 1:30 Oprah and then Warby Parker Warby Parker. trial.com, forward slash sweat. Don't get ripped off by the big, big, big eyeglass where where you're paying 300 $500 for glasses. Law Smith 1:48 They'll send you five pairs you pick it out if I can find some for my horse head. Unknown Speaker 1:56 forward slash sweat. And then you know we are in the sweat lodge studio sweat lodge Unknown Speaker 2:02 dot studio. Unknown Speaker 2:06 That is my digital agency if you need any nerd help, and if you need any business consulting help from a legal perspective, Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:13 Fantastic. Unknown Speaker 2:18 crushing it out in the Unknown Speaker 2:19 field. But fantastic illegal your business are fine. Unknown Speaker 2:22 That's fantastic legal com Unknown Speaker 2:26 now on goodness. Let's Unknown Speaker 2:33 I'm feeling it. I'm feeling good. As I'm trying to find our intro. Unknown Speaker 3:01 Ah, God Almighty. This is triple option. We're back. Weird week because we got to do it kind of. We got to figure out when to do this podcast. Unknown Speaker 3:20 Everybody's kind of messed up. I apologize. Unknown Speaker 3:26 That we said we redo it Monday at one and I pick that one up. I blame it on being sick or working too much burnout. Whatever it is. Chad How you feeling? I'm feeling great man. Unknown Speaker 3:39 feel great. Ready to talk some football? Unknown Speaker 3:44 Saying I think it gives context to the listeners. Sure. Well, I mean, I like to go like crazy. You don't to go by minute by minute but Unknown Speaker 3:51 well, okay, so I should put away my this is my log I was doing this. Unknown Speaker 3:55 entire week. You are an attorney. This isn't an eight hour long podcast, right? Unknown Speaker 3:59 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Chad Sweeting 4:01 Give me all your minutes. Yes. So so no. So as you know, you know, Florida was off this weekend. The big game was Auburn Oregon, which we'll get into a little bit later. your alma mater, Auburn. Unknown Speaker 4:13 So actually Unknown Speaker 4:18 you're busy with your kids and whatnot. But to my Unknown Speaker 4:21 dad, I wanted to. Unknown Speaker 4:23 It's tough if you're places and kids. Unknown Speaker 4:28 And then my former co host of this podcast, Brandon T. Gleason. He's comedian friend, but he's my best friend too. He's in town tells me Thursday. I am coming in town from LA. My wife and I will be in the area where this we recorded this. I'll be there for the FSU game and you're like, Oh, cool. Thanks for the heads up now. I can't get a babysitter. Now. I can't go over to your place. Unknown Speaker 4:50 Yeah, not clear the air but football's about you know making plans and friends. Unknown Speaker 4:58 live here downtown Tampa and we have a pool and see came over in the clubhouse has a pool table and we sat there and watched Florida State Boise was you know got moved to noon for those who don't know it was originally scheduled for South Unknown Speaker 5:16 Korea and it got moved to noon. And Unknown Speaker 5:22 that game was on a seven and then Unknown Speaker 5:28 yeah, and there wasn't a good Unknown Speaker 5:34 Florida State game was a good game. I thought well, it's a force they came out of the gate. Unknown Speaker 5:42 got off turnovers it seemed like they're scoring off at every Unknown Speaker 5:48 job they were scoring on every single play so I kind of Unknown Speaker 5:54 was the score to the very end of the half and it was like 30 Unknown Speaker 6:00 the favored in Boise State Unknown Speaker 6:04 they were seemed like every time they ran the ball Unknown Speaker 6:10 if they had not turned it over Unknown Speaker 6:16 I'm sorry Boise State came back and won. And I am happy about that because in our pixelized all both took I did yeah you take one team I root for him to have right here. The evidence is right here. You took Florida the when I got the W for that one. Really? Yeah. Unknown Speaker 6:42 Second half, and Unknown Speaker 6:48 side like it's like just a methodical kind of EO Yep, six Unknown Speaker 6:56 bye for now Have you heard this story? Unknown Speaker 7:02 DP said that the the problem Unknown Speaker 7:10 getting tired Unknown Speaker 7:14 yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:19 was to say that the one that Unknown Speaker 7:24 commented it today or yesterday Unknown Speaker 7:30 but what scarless it's a shit show there in Florida State That doesn't even make sense as like a way to save yourself from being Unknown Speaker 7:42 no no I was talking about Unknown Speaker 7:46 Yeah, I think Unknown Speaker 7:50 the charger that needs to be fired you know and I feel bad for Steve Unknown Speaker 7:56 well it's been the year Unknown Speaker 8:08 Southern grandma says you know bless your little heart It's kind of like Unknown Speaker 8:14 bless your heart means yes it Unknown Speaker 8:20 but yeah so that that was a good game. Where did you see the Unknown Speaker 8:26 of that boy Unknown Speaker 8:30 Florida State players that Unknown Speaker 8:34 they're all about five yards away Unknown Speaker 8:40 at this ball you haven't seen it Unknown Speaker 8:44 pretty funny I'm not a huge Unknown Speaker 8:48 visual medium and we got Unknown Speaker 8:52 this podcast but I was like Unknown Speaker 8:56 dropped the ball was Unknown Speaker 9:00 I think so I think it was towards Unknown Speaker 9:08 there's one called brass tap down here to franchise Unknown Speaker 9:14 but it was like it doesn't matter if it's a sport Unknown Speaker 9:20 I'm you know everybody's already there Unknown Speaker 9:26 my All right, I think Unknown Speaker 9:32 they're like drunk like little drunk people basically Unknown Speaker 9:39 don't cry really easily Unknown Speaker 9:44 college all over again the freshman year Unknown Speaker 9:50 it was good but if you walk in and say oh everybody's sitting in a pub table eating the IK Unknown Speaker 9:58 so I had to like sit next Unknown Speaker 10:04 fine but it was one of those things where Unknown Speaker 10:08 he unless Unknown Speaker 10:13 I gotta go let me let me Unknown Speaker 10:18 yeah good to catch up I mean that's really Unknown Speaker 10:24 is that kind of reason to beat up? And so I think even if Unknown Speaker 10:32 like you just go Unknown Speaker 10:36 exactly you know otherwise Unknown Speaker 10:42 go to New Orleans you know if I Unknown Speaker 10:46 can put out this pitch from Tuesday all the Unknown Speaker 10:52 way um what else what other Unknown Speaker 10:58 Oregon and Auburn pulls out the win yet Unknown Speaker 11:06 giddy for Unknown Speaker 11:10 now I think when you have kids you decide man Unknown Speaker 11:16 you're watching them I know best. Unknown Speaker 11:21 But it Unknown Speaker 11:26 has Is it coming in with the hype of other years Unknown Speaker 11:34 out there where you're just like I just Unknown Speaker 11:40 been what I I've been telling you Unknown Speaker 11:46 know who this guy is. Chad could do Unknown Speaker 11:52 crush it you murder Unknown Speaker 11:54 rate actually lock me up. pedophile Unknown Speaker 12:00 but the actor Unknown Speaker 12:08 was fine. He just got caught jerking it. I think people think he Unknown Speaker 12:14 but he he just was that adult theatre. Unknown Speaker 12:20 Jared Fogle area Yeah, anyway. Unknown Speaker 12:30 But all Brynn game so a bonus looks like a Unknown Speaker 12:38 like donuts? Yeah, like it's medicine. Unknown Speaker 12:41 Okay, like it's oxy 10 Unknown Speaker 12:42 may cause constipation I'm Unknown Speaker 12:44 just going to get these needs to short it needs Unknown Speaker 12:50 like one word Okay, I like it I like yeah Unknown Speaker 12:56 that are super excited that I'm I get a boner at the gym. Unknown Speaker 13:04 Your mom motorcycle for some reason. Unknown Speaker 13:10 That cool. Unknown Speaker 13:15 Man, he looked like it Unknown Speaker 13:21 by the fourth quarter. really calm down to like Cliff Kingsbury just very chill the high the eyelids are a little bit Unknown Speaker 13:36 nicer kind of thing like that's Unknown Speaker 13:39 he called so much down now. Unknown Speaker 13:45 And I Unknown Speaker 13:50 think in the second half just just Unknown Speaker 13:57 I think it 27 the first half or something like that. Alright, sorry about that. So first off though he's 110 total it was something that was so offset as a fan to watch or a casual fan because it's like you know he's pumping out Unknown Speaker 14:16 they're not like long gains they're just Unknown Speaker 14:20 they're like the but Unknown Speaker 14:24 I think and then Unknown Speaker 14:28 credit for stepping up Unknown Speaker 14:32 but now I'm going to say it like that forever. Unknown Speaker 14:36 Williams the Bruce Unknown Speaker 14:40 brown ball he came back to it adjusted Unknown Speaker 14:47 with five seconds later adjusted on the fly Unknown Speaker 14:52 ball got it Unknown Speaker 14:57 did a great job i Unknown Speaker 15:02 for i think we were Unknown Speaker 15:08 good marketing tactic Unknown Speaker 15:12 or I don't think Unknown Speaker 15:16 extra any better Unknown Speaker 15:20 you know regardless of whether they deserve either yeah but yeah yeah I mean to your point and we always Unknown Speaker 15:28 before those last two touchdown drives Unknown Speaker 15:34 his final stats even with those last I mean I'll give them a lot of credit like for a freshman a true friend Unknown Speaker 15:42 look composed like you said Unknown Speaker 15:46 77 Unknown Speaker 15:51 stats but that fourth quarter that's all Unknown Speaker 15:57 doing like brett farr second year in the second year in green far we like thread the needle run sideways and like throw it into quadruple coverage Unknown Speaker 16:13 like on the left side for him Unknown Speaker 16:18 going on this is gonna be a lot because that I realized Unknown Speaker 16:25 how your year is going to go Unknown Speaker 16:29 the emotional wager that's going to Unknown Speaker 16:33 play a big team or your the marquee Unknown Speaker 16:38 does this throughout this game Unknown Speaker 16:45 this could be a shitty season Unknown Speaker 16:49 this like Unknown Speaker 16:53 that shows a lot of Unknown Speaker 16:57 as a college quarterback and then Oregon Unknown Speaker 17:01 did they play Unknown Speaker 17:05 is it crazy? Unknown Speaker 17:09 I always forget Unknown Speaker 17:13 like a defensive line Unknown Speaker 17:17 guy that's like Unknown Speaker 17:21 McClendon like Unknown Speaker 17:29 Robert Herbert Unknown Speaker 17:33 game that Bob turned up like Unknown Speaker 17:45 this but Unknown Speaker 17:53 you know ESPN does the wind probability and Unknown Speaker 17:59 being on Unknown Speaker 18:03 boys this Auburn did not Unknown Speaker 18:07 so they were Unknown Speaker 18:11 first quarter Unknown Speaker 18:15 for a Unknown Speaker 18:19 little bit because Unknown Speaker 18:23 he is and he's a Unknown Speaker 18:30 break Unknown Speaker 18:35 point be Unknown Speaker 18:39 like 50 Unknown Speaker 18:43 died yeah so Unknown Speaker 18:49 we pick oh and let me know Unknown Speaker 18:53 wasn't that great? Unknown Speaker 18:57 It was kind of sad Unknown Speaker 19:01 we're going to zoom to one more Unknown Speaker 19:09 little bit more this week Unknown Speaker 19:13 when that exciting Unknown Speaker 19:17 bomb but Unknown Speaker 19:21 by three and a half I'm good Unknown Speaker 19:25 yes Stephen Unknown Speaker 19:29 Law picked Oregon Unknown Speaker 19:33 it's not my fan of God Unknown Speaker 19:38 Tim Cook's Unknown Speaker 19:41 three times Unknown Speaker 19:45 so you still lost yeah Unknown Speaker 19:49 brought it up Unknown Speaker 19:57 like it Unknown Speaker 20:05 he's not like Unknown Speaker 20:09 anyway okay Unknown Speaker 20:13 get on next week Unknown Speaker 20:17 USA Unknown Speaker 20:25 to me up very well in Unknown Speaker 20:33 both confirmation Unknown Speaker 20:41 Wisconsin so Unknown Speaker 20:47 Sterling 01 well on the Unknown Speaker 20:59 Jonathan Taylor crushed it really Unknown Speaker 21:07 easily our number one tech and the unfortunate Unknown Speaker 21:21 number one of us Steve USF Unknown Speaker 21:33 I don't want him Unknown Speaker 21:37 big some kind of case Unknown Speaker 21:41 49 to zero Unknown Speaker 21:45 hundred 32 receiving okay Unknown Speaker 21:57 that's a Lamborghini Unknown Speaker 22:01 Not too shabby Unknown Speaker 22:05 think Charlie strong Unknown Speaker 22:09 they got Unknown Speaker 22:13 their calendar right Unknown Speaker 22:21 you're still Unknown Speaker 22:25 like up and coming coach Unknown Speaker 22:31 do this and Unknown Speaker 22:35 this is the first round Unknown Speaker 22:39 you can't get over Unknown Speaker 22:43 project but Unknown Speaker 22:47 all the Pisces Unknown Speaker 22:51 too excited any anything overall Unknown Speaker 22:55 25th in the rankings Unknown Speaker 23:05 mixed teams because they're Unknown Speaker 23:13 the guys that alright Unknown Speaker 23:33 another interesting Unknown Speaker 23:37 in the ranking after oh Unknown Speaker 23:41 that's not feel great. Unknown Speaker 23:45 Now three spots I think Unknown Speaker 23:53 I chose them as Unknown Speaker 23:57 the most David season Unknown Speaker 24:05 here pretty soon Unknown Speaker 24:09 I think the Unknown Speaker 24:13 thing else Unknown Speaker 24:17 game maybe LLC Unknown Speaker 24:21 yeah Unknown Speaker 24:25 john was awesome what Unknown Speaker 24:33 17 Unknown Speaker 24:37 go in Unknown Speaker 24:42 I don't know if they're going Unknown Speaker 24:45 to do the half that's Unknown Speaker 24:49 not look great. Unknown Speaker 24:53 Casual Unknown Speaker 24:57 Yeah, I'm killing mom Unknown Speaker 25:01 like last week Unknown Speaker 25:06 because I picked up Unknown Speaker 25:09 on these two Unknown Speaker 25:13 trying to do that while you were talking Unknown Speaker 25:17 extend to Unknown Speaker 25:21 will text them later Yeah. Unknown Speaker 25:25 So let's go Unknown Speaker 25:30 as you said cleanses Unknown Speaker 25:33 MM I just I Unknown Speaker 25:41 not Unknown Speaker 25:46 know and believe me Unknown Speaker 25:51 that's a good motivator motive Unknown Speaker 25:59 why man I saw with Unknown Speaker 26:03 some shade Unknown Speaker 26:07 at least like Unknown Speaker 26:15 had these guys come in like Unknown Speaker 26:23 surviving the SEC whatever best Unknown Speaker 26:31 than any other program guy Unknown Speaker 26:43 college football Unknown Speaker 26:47 Seattle you know Unknown Speaker 26:55 dad they pay for the rights Unknown Speaker 27:01 there's Unknown Speaker 27:05 Florida State was Unknown Speaker 27:13 gonna say Clemson is gonna win head to head or straight up Unknown Speaker 27:19 tomorrow score game Unknown Speaker 27:23 go to Texas a&m here Unknown Speaker 27:27 no information Unknown Speaker 27:31 ever was going on with Unknown Speaker 27:35 a headphone ears Unknown Speaker 27:39 settled down a bit Unknown Speaker 27:43 football news you know Unknown Speaker 27:51 your mental might as a coach Unknown Speaker 27:55 type to me there's Unknown Speaker 28:00 he's not brought up in the new Unknown Speaker 28:03 you gotta look at what Unknown Speaker 28:08 kind of thing Unknown Speaker 28:11 Michael Lewis Perkins Unknown Speaker 28:15 and the Houston Rockets a Unknown Speaker 28:23 new story Unknown Speaker 28:27 but knows though so Unknown Speaker 28:31 let's go with LSU number six Ellis Unknown Speaker 28:37 star start Unknown Speaker 28:41 six and a half Unknown Speaker 28:49 talking through Unknown Speaker 28:53 if I were a betting man I would Unknown Speaker 28:57 because I think this Unknown Speaker 29:01 that LLC will probably win Unknown Speaker 29:05 not points but it's Unknown Speaker 29:09 I think Joe Unknown Speaker 29:13 YFTD Unknown Speaker 29:18 up until I mean last year up until the Florida game he Unknown Speaker 29:23 does have a great arm like Unknown Speaker 29:31 I talked about stuff in the Unknown Speaker 29:35 site the Unknown Speaker 29:39 I don't see that it's Unknown Speaker 29:44 I guess it's forecasting oh I see it Unknown Speaker 29:49 yeah be hot. I mean LC was no stranger to heat Unknown Speaker 29:55 little bit drier Unknown Speaker 30:00 go ahead and say Unknown Speaker 30:08 I just think that like me to defensive job so Unknown Speaker 30:23 the number nine Unknown Speaker 30:27 you to me Unknown Speaker 30:32 how are they YRY Yeah. In that Unknown Speaker 30:47 and everybody else is a mystery as well. There you go. Unknown Speaker 30:57 Very good. Unknown Speaker 31:02 Ah, let's let's Unknown Speaker 31:09 get that Unknown Speaker 31:13 it's kind of like Unknown Speaker 31:22 the Bearcats Unknown Speaker 31:26 UCLA that is oh yeah boss Unknown Speaker 31:41 just on interested Unknown Speaker 31:45 damn Unknown Speaker 31:50 in the book to Cincinnati's credit they look they look Unknown Speaker 31:56 warning Unknown Speaker 32:00 I'm but Unknown Speaker 32:07 there's another Unknown Speaker 32:11 bad go with Unknown Speaker 32:15 good as I just Brian day Unknown Speaker 32:24 I'm gonna go Unknown Speaker 32:27 points on Unknown Speaker 32:31 it just to be a little Unknown Speaker 32:35 16 points Unknown Speaker 32:40 it's Midwestern Unknown Speaker 32:43 very low scoring it's a 12 Unknown Speaker 32:51 games at 12 that Unknown Speaker 32:55 11am Unknown Speaker 33:00 that goes with Unknown Speaker 33:07 when I was looking at Unknown Speaker 33:16 from my league Unknown Speaker 33:20 in the skill position Unknown Speaker 33:24 yeah so just for fun I'd Unknown Speaker 33:27 be remiss if you didn't want the Unknown Speaker 33:35 next this year I think the last Unknown Speaker 33:39 seller just gotten Unknown Speaker 33:44 like a four week Unknown Speaker 33:48 help and I think Unknown Speaker 33:52 teams on the downside that have been Unknown Speaker 34:00 divided Unknown Speaker 34:04 UT Martin FCS Unknown Speaker 34:08 and Steve's Unknown Speaker 34:12 although it Unknown Speaker 34:16 Don't you think he's going to claim it Unknown Speaker 34:20 though he has no time Unknown Speaker 34:24 and he's like like Unknown Speaker 34:28 know anyone from there if Unknown Speaker 34:35 it's like grown up into Unknown Speaker 34:40 just be a magic Unknown Speaker 34:44 do Orlando and then Unknown Speaker 34:51 that's your origin story. Unknown Speaker 34:58 So Unknown Speaker 35:02 Steve's gonna rip to the see Unknown Speaker 35:06 that part Unknown Speaker 35:18 Yeah, it was Unknown Speaker 35:22 and they're just Unknown Speaker 35:26 going anywhere. Unknown Speaker 35:30 To be one of our biggest rivals until we Unknown Speaker 35:34 fight game though. Unknown Speaker 35:38 I have a dilemma. Unknown Speaker 35:42 Talk to my pops Unknown Speaker 35:46 work it Unknown Speaker 35:50 well I thought Unknown Speaker 36:06 college football game and it's Unknown Speaker 36:14 been too Unknown Speaker 36:18 and then I just missed Unknown Speaker 36:22 all that stuff. Also your Unknown Speaker 36:26 efforts he went to us Unknown Speaker 36:34 listening watching tell us Unknown Speaker 36:40 probably answer him. If you got Unknown Speaker 36:46 previewing week three Unknown Speaker 36:50 will get Unknown Speaker 36:54 all that stuff. Unknown Speaker 36:58 of the Unknown Speaker 37:02 I'm dead on the inside. You got Unknown Speaker 37:10 we Unknown Speaker 37:14 drink too much. Don't

Let's Talk about Stress... On this week's episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry we have Dr. Michelle Clay, an empowering speaker, two-time best-selling author and holistic physician who specializes in the release and management of stress and its associated symptoms simply and naturally. Her life mission is to empower people experiencing challenging life circumstances that do not change with tools to transform their lives from stressful, unbalanced, and unhealthy to happy, harmonious, and purposeful. As we continue the theme of personal growth, self-reflection and mental clarity the Lunch and Learn community is blessed to have Dr. Michelle educate us on the subject of stress. Most importantly we tackle the problem head-on and learn some amazing tangible ways to make sure that we turn our stressors into success. On the show, we will learn just what got Dr. Michelle started in the field and how she has been able to help others break the cycle of misery that their personal stressors have caused. Also, listen out as we talk about a future even Dr. Michelle is hosting and how you can be apart of the festivities. If you haven't already check out episode 116 so you are aware of all of the slate of episodes coming this month. Remember to subscribe to the podcast and share the episode with a friend or family member. Listen on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Stitcher, Soundcloud, iHeartRadio, Spotify Sponsors: Lunch and Learn Community Online Store (code Empower10) Pierre Medical Consulting (If you are looking to expand your social reach and make your process automated then Pierre Medical Consulting is for you) Dr. Pierre's Resources – These are some of the tools I use to become successful using social media My Amazon Store – Check out all of the book recommendations you heard in the episode Links/Resources: Instagram - Instagram.com/drmichelleclay LinkedIn - Dr. Michelle Clay Website - www.freelife7le.com The R and R experience - www.releaserechargeexperience.com Book Recommendation: Conquering the Chaos by Dr. Michelle Clay Social Links: Join the lunch and learn community – https://www.drberrypierre.com/joinlunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on Facebook – http://www.facebook.com/lunchlearnpod Follow the podcast on twitter – http://www.twitter.com/lunchlearnpod – use the hashtag #LunchLearnPod if you have any questions, comments or requests for the podcast For More Episodes of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry Podcasts https://www.drberrypierre.com/lunchlearnpodcast/ If you are looking to help the show out Leave a Five Star Review on Apple Podcast because your ratings and reviews are what is going to make this show so much better Share a screenshot of the podcast episode on all of your favorite social media outlets & tag me or add the hashtag.#lunchlearnpod Download Episode 117 Transcript   Introduction Dr. Berry: And welcome to another episode of the Lunch and Learn with Dr. Berry. I'm your host, Dr. Berry Pierre, your favorite Board Certified Internist. Founder of drberrypierre.com. CEO of Pierre Medical Consulting, helping you empower yourself for better health with the number one podcast for patient advocacy here with the Lunch and Learn. This week we bring you an amazing guest. We have Dr. Michelle Clay who's an empowering speaker, two time bestselling author and holistic physician who specializes in the release and management of stress and associated symptoms simply and naturally. Her life mission is to empower people experiencing challenging life. With tools to transform their lives from stressful, unbalanced and unhealthy to happy, harmonious and purposeful. Dr. Michelle is frequently called upon to give her a refreshing perspective on ways to really stress and recharge health, enabling clients to live a free life of purpose with passion.  Through her company, FreeLife7, her work and enhances people's lives by harmonizing all dimensions of wellness through coaching programs, retreats and seminars to help burnt out and busy professionals and high stress and high strong, high performers. You guys know who you are. Create their sense of calm, clarity and confidence, a mindset for success. And guys, I’ll be honest with you, I listened to Episode 116 where we talked about the self-reflection and the importance of self-reflection. I thought it was extremely important to really talk about why a lot of people need that self-reflection, right? Because the everyday stresses of life is kicking a lot of you guys’ butt, truly and honestly. And when we talk with Dr. Michelle today, you'll hear instances where the mental stress is causing physical manifestations and we talked about how the physical stress can cause mental ramifications, right? So it's definitely a relationship that if it's not in tune, if you are not ready to not only accept stress, because stress is coming, there's no way you can avoid it. But when it does come, be able to manage it. And I think as a keyword, we don't deal with stress, we manage stress, right? So it'd be able to manage that stress and then use it for your betterment. We're going to be in trouble, right? And unfortunately I take care of a lot of patients who the stressors of life - job, work, family relationships has beat them down to the point that they're physically sick and we don't want that. So again Episode 117, we have Dr. Michelle Clay. We're going to be talking about stress all throughout this episode. I want you guys to really pay attention and really get some tips to learn how to de-stress and declutter your life for the better. So like always, if you had not had a chance, make sure you subscribe to the podcast. If you're on apple podcasts, leave with five star review and let me know what'd you think about Dr. Michelle’s episode. You guys have a great and blessed day. Main Episode Dr. Berry: Alright, Lunch and Learn community. So you just heard another amazing introduction from a guest that I've been waiting in the background to get onto the show for quite a while and I just felt this was a time this was right. And when you listen to this, you know, National Minority Mental Health Awareness Month. When did we talk about the mental health and talk about what makes it so that you can actually have good mental health, right? Like this is one of the key factors that will determine whether you have good mental health or not, right? Which is stress. But lo and behold, Dr. Michelle again, thank you for coming onto the show for the Lunch and Learn community and educating us and gracing us with your presence. Dr. Michelle Clay: Thank you Dr. Berry for having me. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so excited. This is such an honor. Dr. Berry: Dr. Michelle, I gave introduction and other intro. I do, I already know I got some people who like to skip to introduction and come right to the main story. So for the people who do that, because we know we got those people who like to skip the line, tell them something about you who they may not be able to read this off, getting off your bio, right? Who is Dr. Michelle?  Dr. Michelle Clay: So, I think since people really want to know about stress and what they can do about it, because stress is such a problem. I'll tell you something about me that people might not know what led me to talk about stress and focus on that, in mindset so much. So many people have had struggles just like I have in this new day and time. There are a lot of blended families. There are very few traditional, what we call traditional families whereas the mother, the father, and they have their kids and they live happily ever after in one house. Until death do us part with the husband and wife. But that wasn't my story. That isn't my story. So you meet someone, you fall in love, but when you fall in love with them, everything else follows that. Past relationships, unforgiveness, past hurt, past wrongs. And this is if I inherited that, which was not even mine. So the next thing I know there's a tug-of-war of back and forth with my honeybun’s child and co-parenting was nonexistent. It's still non-existent. I'm in the middle of trying to support my mate and also act as if I'm kind of like a surrogate mother for lack of better terminology. And the moms, I do not want you to fuss at me. It was a lot of struggle. There was jealousy. There was anger. There was rage. There was constant court dates. There were constant motions filed. There was the police called. It was all of that. And though I consider myself a super wonder woman, and I know some of my sister's super wonder women are listening, you just can't juggle it all. You cannot carry all that, is your responsibility as well as be supportive for somebody else. And I began to buckle - my health deteriorated.  And I'm very, very health conscious. I'm a vegetarian. I eat a lot of raw foods. I juice a lot. But even in that, I was still experiencing the symptoms of stress such as gallstones, chronic tension in my neck and in my shoulders where I could not even turn my neck all the way over, all the way to the left, rather. Lower back pain, hair thinning and falling out. And it didn't make any sense to me at all. So I really encouraged people to follow my story and really get in tune to what is going on with them. This chronic stress can lead to or worsen present medical conditions. Maybe everybody knows that and maybe they don't. I don't know. But I hadn't been diagnosed with anything and even I had uterine fibroids and they grew, (wow). Yes, I have been keeping my uterine fibroids at bay for like 14 years, doing a lot of natural therapies. But when that stress came down on me, then I could feel them growing where my acupuncturist said, “oh no, you need surgery”. Yes. And I had surgery and guess how many I had? Dr. Berry: I heard stories of women with multiple fibroids. How much? Dr. Michelle Clay: I had 20 fibroids. Dr. Berry: Wow. Wow. Okay. Okay. Dr. Michelle Clay: 20 fibroids. Yes. Dr. Berry: I don't know if people realize, especially when it comes to fibroids, it is a hormonal component associated with the growth of fibroids and obviously stress being in a situation you're in, definitely didn't help those hormones, I'm assuming. Dr. Michelle Clay: Absolutely. Chronic stress will affect your estrogen, your testosterone. It will affect the entire endocrine system to include insulin, which is a hormone. So absolutely. Dr. Berry: Now when you were going through this time period, where kind of distress was just kind of being put on top of you and day after day, week after week, did you feel a lot of these other medical conditions that kind of rolls up, kinda ashes or were they always there and stress just kind of made it worse? What would you say one way or the other? Dr. Michelle Clay: The fibroids had been there, but my fibroids, they would shrink and come back, shrink and come back. But never that large. But the gallstones I never had before, I never had that. And the muscle tension where I couldn't turn my neck all the way to the left that had never been there before. My hair thinning and falling out - I had that before, but only when I had a perm. But I have been the natural system now for, let me see for 17 years (Alright.) So wasn’t it either. But especially at the time when I developed the gallstones, I was only eating raw at that time. I wasn't even eating any cooked foods. Dr. Berry: That might precipitated those gallstones. Wow. Okay. Dr. Michelle Clay: Exactly. So you know, they say that there's an increase incidents and gallstones with the F's. If you're fat forty and female. I have the 40 and the female together. But the fat, no.  Dr. Berry: And I can tell you Lunch and Learn community, definitely, Dr. Michelle is a tall lanky, tall lanky individuals. So yeah. Dr. Michelle Clay: That's funny.  Dr. Berry: You know and what's interesting, especially in when we talk about stress and obviously we're going to get into it, seeing that the stress that unfortunately you weren't even directly responsible for. Unfortunately, was being thrust upon you, was causing a lot of undue aspects of you're just a medical and health and well-being. Is that something that you seem to be pretty common? Like a lot of times it's not even something that we're directly doing that's kind of resulting in all of the issues that stress is causing upon us? Dr. Michelle Clay: Absolutely. Because according to the American Institute of Stress, the number one cause of stress in America is job-related. And so that's definitely a place where you don't have any control, especially if you aren't the boss. But even if you are the boss and you have employees, you don't have control over what your employees do or what they don't do or how they respond to situations. So what's really important about to me about stress management, is that you manage it. You tell your mind what to think and don't allow whatever situations are going on around you to dictate how you feel and how you respond. We always have a choice. Now, trust me, I did not come to this overnight because still in my mind I would kind of position myself like the victim, like, “oh my goodness, if this weren't happening then I wouldn't feel like this.If this situation weren't present, I wouldn't feel like this.” You know, all these, what if’s. But when I eliminated the language and the perspective of the what if and looked at my hand and my head and my heart of what I did have, then that gave me the power to take control back of my emotions and my response. And so I'm going to tell you, I'm going to give you a brace report. I just went to my massage therapist on Sunday and she said, oh, Dr. Michelle, what have you been doing? Your muscles are so pliable, I can get my fingers in deep, doing my work. Dr. Berry: Yes. I love it. I love it. Dr. Michelle for the Lunch and Learn community members who, you know, obviously heard your story and I'm pretty sure a lot of them would probably like, like myself, kind of shaking my head like, yeah, she's so right. Yep. I know exactly what she's feeling. When we talk about just stress in general, right? What do you tell the person when they say, Dr. Michelle, what is stress? What does that even mean in the grand scheme of things? Dr. Michelle Clay: So let's be clear about something. Number one, a lot of us have grown up with the idea that stress is a bad thing and that is a sign of weakness. You're not strong, you can't handle things, you can't handle life. First of all, stress is a positive thing when it comes in spurts. Is not an emotional response. It is actually a physiological response that is built in for our survival. So for instance, if you have a presentation that's due, if you are driving on the road and someone suddenly slams their foot on the brakes and you have to react very quickly for your survival, then your stress response is going to be activated. And that starts in the brain. And in the brain there are many parts of the brain, but one part in particular, the hypothalamus is activated, which then activates the pituitary gland, which then sends out hormone to activate the adrenal glands to produce more of the hormone which people know as our stress hormone - Cortisol. So Cortisol will then in turn activate things where digestion won't be taking place. Because if you're trying to survive, you're trying to run away from someone robbing you. You're trying to avoid life accident, you don't have time to digest foods. And then it'll also cause more blood to flow in the larger muscles of your body, like our size and that type of thing. Getting ready to run. So when they say fight or flight, it's for our survival. But the problem becomes when that response is activated constantly on a chronic basis. So those body processes that we don't really need in the moment for our survival, guess what? Those things have decreased activity on a chronic basis and that's what causes the problems that we have. Dr. Berry: So in the short run, you know, you need to stop those breaks, you need to run away. You need to do something. It's a good thing. (Absolutely.) But unfortunately you said in the long run is where we get in trouble. Consistent aspect of like, okay, this has happened. Like, like you said, when we talk about the jobs, like every day I go to a job, every day I want to deal with the same stress over and over and over again. And that's when we kind of run into trouble. Dr. Michelle Clay: Correct. That's correct. Dr. Berry: So I guess the question is why, and I hear this all the time, I hear it was a lot of my patients, they always say, well, I could just deal with stress better. Right? Like what does that even mean? Are some people more affected by the quote unquote everyday stressors of life and can some people handle it better than the others? Or is that just been like innate within them? How does one be able to deal with stress?  Dr. Michelle Clay: So studies have shown that people who went when they were in utero, their mothers experience a lot of stress, then they have a different type of stress response. However, with that being said, that is something that you can manage and overcome. For instance, with therapy, with counseling, learning how to read, just different types of coping techniques and strategies. Now, I'm not a therapist, but I have some stress-releasing strategies on my own. But I always believe that what is necessary to do is get to the root of a problem. So while you may need some strategies for the day to day, if you know that you have come from an abusive household or that your mother experienced some kind of trauma when she was pregnant with you, then I definitely recommend therapy. Dr. Berry: Interesting. And I'm definitely that strategy kind of touched on that because I think a lot of times when we hear these people talk about, well I can deal with stress, you know better. And you know, this stress is worse than others that we do have to kind of look within. Right? It's usually some intrinsic reason why you yourself is able to deal with stress, but maybe your brother can't. Maybe your sister, like even people within the same kind of household can sometimes deal with stress on a better level than others, right? And it's weird to say deal with stress, because I'm not even sure if that's the correct way we should be saying it, but I guess you'd be better off to tell it. Is it a good thing that you can deal with stress, especially on a chronic basis? That's something that you've seen that helps people in the long run better? Dr. Michelle Clay: I wouldn't say deal. I would say manage because every day you can be triggered by something and you made a good point there, Dr. Berry, as far as people can live in the same household and maybe a sibling reacts to the same situation in a different manner. Now, that can go back to what was happening in utero. It can also lend to what is happening in the brain because chronic stress affects your brain, different areas of your brain. For instance, especially the prefrontal cortex. I really love to talk about that one right there, because that particular… Dr. Berry: Educators, that's why you're here because we need the education. So please, please go ahead. Dr. Michelle Clay: Yes. The prefrontal cortex, which is the front part of your brain, like where your forehead is. So that deals with higher cognitive functioning. So that's going to be long-term planning, perception, executive functioning, things like that. So chronic stress really affects that area of the brain, decreasing the activities. So let's say that you're in the same household, the same situations are happening, but the brother activity isn't responding in the prefrontal cortex the same way that yours. So that's something that you have to consider. But I always feel like this, that anything can be managed. I don't like to use the terminology deal because it says if you kind of just live in and they ignore it. (Right, right.) And accept what is happening to you even though it's not optimal for your wellness and well-being. So I really, words mean a lot words mean a lot because we can give life to whatever it is that we speak. So that's why I say manage and then you come up with a plan and a strategy, then you will be able to manage better and better until the next thing you know you're like, “that thing that used to set me off, I'm good. I feel calm. It doesn't affect me like that. It doesn't shift me. It doesn't shift me from my position.” When you know who you are, you know your position. Then whatever anyone else is doing, it doesn't shake you or shifts you. Dr. Berry: I love it and I know we talked about especially like with whatever that thing is, right? We talked about the job being a big contributor to a lot of people's stress, right, but the people that you've worked with and taking care of, what had been some of the common reasons that they say stress them, right? Like, you know, I got some off the top. I always, I'm thinking money, right? But what are some of the things that you run into that say, “Oh yeah, a lot of my clients usually have this issue and that issue “as far as what's the initial cause of such stress? Dr. Michelle Clay: Number one is going to be the job. They either feel like they don't make enough money. They may experience micro aggression on their job. I've known a few people where it was so severe they had to file a complaint with EEOC. (Ok.) Yes, yes, yes. It can get very serious and very deep. The other things: feeling unfulfilled. Especially most of my clients are 40+, like between the 40 and 55-year-old range. And you get to a point in your life then when you look around and you're like, “okay, am I doing what it is that I plan to do? And if I'm not, is it fulfilling me? Do I feel like I'm on the right track? Do I feel that I'm working in my purpose? Do I even know what my purpose is?” Then in that 40 to 55 range, a lot of times we're talking about divorce. So job, then money and then relationships. (Wow, ok.) Yeah. Dr. Berry: Now that age, especially very interesting that you kind of mentioned that age. Is that where the typical quote-unquote midlife crisis, if that's, and again, I don't know if, is that an actual thing? Is that where that kind of comes about when we talk about the quote-unquote midlife crisis where people are starting to evaluate their life? Dr. Michelle Clay: Yes. But in my experience, in my personal experience, I feel that men and women respond to that differently. Now I had a little moment, I'm going to own it because I think it's important. Yes. I feel it's important to be very transparent with people because often when people are going through things, they feel alone and they isolate themselves and therefore they cannot get the help and support that they need. But I did have a moment where I felt like, I feel a little bit down. I wasn't clinically depressed, but I did have somewhat of a depressed mood where I felt like I should be further along than where I am now. This is not how I envisioned my life to look when I was 25. Actually, there's nothing in my life that looks like what I envisioned. Dr. Berry: So you were batting like zero at this point and you're looking around your life. Like, “hold on, I thought this was going to be completely different. Okay. Alright.” Dr. Michelle Clay: Exactly. And especially when you come to a point when you're struggling financially or you're struggling in your relationship and you feel like it's not supposed to be like this. But what I decided to do to pull myself out of that was I created, people do vision boards all the time, but I can't carry a board around. So I got a notebook, I've got a notebook, and I put in their affirmations. I put in exactly what I wanted. I put in pictures and when I would go to my job, which was stressful, I carried my little notebook with me and I would just look inside my notebook. And then it helped me remember who I am and what my goals were. Dr. Berry: I love it. So how has and how does the stressors that we've faced with, whichever realm we face it in, how does it, and have you seen it affect people's bodies and their health or their wellness, just like as a whole? Especially when it's, again, it's not the every now and then, but now it's every week, every day. Like how have you seen that over the years affect people‘s health and wellness kind of associated along with it? Dr. Michelle Clay: Probably one of the number one things that I constantly see is high blood pressure because yes, chronic stress definitely affects your cardiovascular system. So that stress hormone, Cortisol I was speaking of, it causes vasoconstriction and vasoconstriction. Of course, I know, you know before the audience, nasal constriction is when the vessels tighten up. So the analogy I like to use is when you think about a garden hose, so if you're watering your lawn and there aren't any kinks in the hose, that water's going to flow out right. But if something gets in there or somebody bins, then the water is not going to flow so nicely. It might trickle a little bit. So that's the same kind of concept that's occurring and people's blood vessels as well as increased heart rates. So I'd say blood pressure's the number one. Muscle tension, muscle tightness. That's the number two thing that I see most commonly. Sleep disturbances will probably be the third thing that I see most commonly. Either they cannot sleep or they sleep too much or when they fall asleep they cannot stay asleep. Dr. Berry: And what I love about what you're doing is that, because I think a lot of times when people think of stress and a lot of times we do this backward, right? Where we talk about how the physical ailments that we're dealing with affects our mental. But here you are kind of really, you know, really educating Lunch and Learn community anyway. Hey, like you see these mental transgressions that you're dealing with on a day-to-day basis. This is how it shows up on the physical side, right? So it is like a two-way street. Like yeah, some physical stuff could definitely mess your mental up. But if you're mental, especially when we talk about stress, because that's the thing, this is how stress can affect you in the doctor's office, right? This is what we, I may not be able to see the macroaggressions’ that your job is doing to you, but I do see it when you come and get your checkup and your blood pressure still can be controlled. Dr. Michelle Clay: Absolutely. And mind and body go hand in hand. It's just like which came first, the chicken or the egg? So it's not like a first, is the cycle. It's a circle. So even with chronic stress you may have decreased pleasure and that can affect your relationship if you don't feel like being intimate with your partner. Okay. Even though intimacy is a great stress reliever but you don't feel like doing it. Dr. Berry: So the stress is beating you up on a day to day basis. That even though you know that, like, that's a good thing that's happening over there. I can't even get the mental fortitude to get on that area because I'm just not ready for it. Dr. Michelle Clay: Correct. And it can affect men, especially because with chronic stress it can decrease testosterone level. Dr. Berry: Okay. Alright men of Lunch and Learn community and I hope you listening. We've talked about this before on a previous podcast with a guests or we were talking about this masculinity and you know how we as men allow masculinity to really got a lot of problems in our relationships, social relationships. And again, this is where we're getting, we're this tying in to say like, hey, yes it can cause some problems if you're not ready, if you're not managing it the way you need to manage it. So this is the end results that can occur. So I’m definitely loving that. (Correct.)  So we talked about some of the kind of the physical ailments to health and wellness, but what about the, and you talked a little bit when you alluded to just the thought process and the mindset that chronicity of stress plays on people and has even played on you. What were some of the ways that you see that, you said like, wow, you know, this is, and I know one was it taking me out physically, but like I'm not even thinking straight. My mindset even there. What have been some of the ways that you've seen that come into play? Dr. Michelle Clay: People come to me and they feel stuck. That's what they feel stuck. Sometimes when they come, they don't say I'm stressed. They'll say things like, I need a change, but I don't know how to get there. Okay. They just feel stuck. They cannot move forward past unforgiveness. They cannot move to make a plan. They know they want something better and sometimes they don't even have clarity as to what. So exactly your thought process is you're not thinking clearly. It's difficult to focus. You may even have problems with your memory with chronic stress. Not to the extent of like Alzheimer's or anything like that, but you understand what I'm saying? For instance, I don't remember where I put my wallet. Okay. I even had an incident the other day in my personal home where my housemate was so stressed out, he walked out the door and didn't realize he didn't close it. So I come home in the door is wide open. Dr. Berry: Oh, I bet that conversation must, nah. I'm just mad at that conversation. If I leave the door and I come home, I'm like, oh, what the hell are you doing buddy? Dr. Michelle Clay: But see, the thing is when you use your stress release and strategies, then I'm able to manage that. First of all, I need to know is everything safe, safe to walk in the house? Do I need to call the police? Is anything missing? The only thing that was missing was the cats. And then once I find the cat, then I just have a very calm conversation. Just like this tone of voice. Just don't forget to put on the deadbolt. That's it. If I get my, if I get all hyper and I'm stressed out, well that's going to affect the rest of my day. And I have things to do. I need to focus. I need to be clear. I need to manage my time well. So there's ways to manage and see that's an example of you taking control and not allowing anything or anyone to shift you from your position. Dr. Berry: And it was interesting, especially because when you talk about just even the memory, because I'm a program director, so I got residents around me and you know, we work in a hospital setting. So you know, when we hear like rapid response or cold blue and all of a sudden, you know, those same residents who are calm and collective and they get into that emergent mode, they forget the stethoscope, they forget that white coat. They forget where they need to. Like your memory just isn't as sharp as it needs to be. And that's those only in a short instance. So I can only imagine if chronically you're dealing with something over and over and over again, what that would do over a longer span. Dr. Michelle Clay: Absolutely. I feel for the residents because I remember that time and actually there are moments in my life that I will never remember, not just because I was stressed, but also sleep deprivation. Dr. Berry: Oh yes. Oh, okay. Yeah. You bring back the, hey, so bad we don't, we forget about some of the things we went through as a resident because you're like, oh yeah. Dr. Michelle Clay: I don't mean to trigger anything, Dr. Berry. I don’t want to trigger something. Dr. Berry: I'm just thinking about it now. Oh yeah. Really? Yeah, the tough times as a resident. Tough time as a resident for sure. Talk to us about some of the ways that you've helped guide people to help manage and even release their stress. Which is a very interesting concept when we talk about the releasing of the stress, right? Like what are some of the ways that you've been able to educate and coach some of your clients to, to kind of get them over the hump, I guess, if there is a hump to get over? Dr. Michelle Clay: Well, first of all, I helped them, number one to turn off the autopilot in the racing thoughts and get some of that stuff out of your head out. And sometimes that can be as simple as journaling. Now I meet people where they are. Some people like, “Dr. Michelle, I am not going to journal.” Okay. Dr. Berry: They're honest with you. Dr. Michelle Clay: They are honest with me and I appreciate that because then I can meet you where you are and we can work together. From my perspective, my responsibility as a physician is not to heal you but to guide you and give you tools that you can activate your own healing power and heal yourself. So first of all, depending on what they are dealing with, I just write it out on paper. I'm like, okay, what's the first thing that you feel you need to conquer or you need to manage to get to your next step? And they'll tell me whatever that is. And they said, oh, but that seems so big. I said, well wait a minute, let's break it down. Let's break it down. So then, once I help them break it down piece by piece, just as if you're building a house, if you're going to build a house, well I'm not going to say a house, let's just say a shed because that can be a weekend project. People can relate to that. You're going to go to home depot or Lowe's and you're going to get the supplies that you need. You're going to map out how you're going to do this as an architect - you're going to have a blueprint and then you're going to follow that blueprint. But sometimes let's say that piece of wood that you need to have a splints are in it and the nail goes through where you're not going to wig out. What are you going to do? You go and pick up another piece of wood and put it in place. So I break it down with them like that, step by step, piece by piece. And then I also get them to commit, not a “someday” or “I'm going to try”, what is it that you're going to do? And okay, Dr. Michelle, I'm going to do this. Okay, so you're going to do this by what day? Now I'm going to call you, I'm going to check in. So if you know, especially if you have somewhat of a competitive spirit, if you know someone is looking over you, but more importantly looking out for you, think you're more apt to do that. And then I'm like you know what, I'm so glad that you told me to do that because it wasn't as hard as I thought. Dr. Berry: I love it and that's so correctly, and I'm laughing because I, you're not going to tell we known each other for about three years now. A little bit, give or take. She really does this, like this is it, just like she really would be like, no, no, no, no, no. I need like the date and time that you said this project is going to be completed so I can reach out to you on that time just to make sure we're all on the same page. So she really does this. It's not just for the show. Dr. Michelle Clay: It’s not just for the show. This is real. This is definitely real. So that's one thing. And then another powerful thing that I have them do that I do every day are affirmation. So affirmations are really about saying I am, and then whatever is after that, you're creating that in your life. So some people, I have them simply say every day I am calm, I love myself, or whatever it is. A lot of people deal with self-image issues where they feel that they're not worthy. They devalue themselves by the words they say to themselves and that creates their reality. And then they act that out in real life. And even if someone says, oh no honey, I love myself, but I'm watching what you're doing. I'm watching how you treat yourself. I'm watching what you're eating, I'm watching how you're sleeping and watching who you allow around you. If there are people who will bring you down or discourage you, or if there are people who will lift you up. So it doesn't matter what you say in that instance, it matters what you do. What I get people to do is say and then also act what they say. Dr. Berry: I love it. Do you find a lot of people will do the form of the ladder? They'll say all the stuff that I'm going to do this, I want to do that. But when it comes to actually putting, you know, the pen to the paper, taking that next step, you find l that's where a lot of people kind of falter when it comes to managing and releasing of set stress?   Dr. Michelle Clay: They do, but it's a process because just like riding a bike, when we first got on the bike, well some of us had training wheels. I had training wheels. Some people just immediately got on the bike and there were times when you fell down, but even though you fell down, you've got that up and got back on the bike and they may have put a helmet on you and some knee pads and some elbow pads just to protect you a little bit. But at the end of the day, you still got back up on the bike. Now you may have paused because you got a little nervous and said, oh well I'm afraid to try right now. I'm gonna wait until next week and try again. But the point is that you tried again and so it's a process that's the same way with my clients. Some people when I tell them things and we come up with a plan together, then they take action and full, they're good. Some people they kind of wax and wane and oh well I don't know, blah blah, blah. Oh Dr. Michelle I didn’t do what I wanna, still don't leave me though. Don't leave me Dr. Michelle. I'm like, I'm not going to leave. (I'm not going nowhere).  Dr. Berry: Do you find that, and especially because I'm thinking about the whole manage releasing stress, when clients come to you, do you find that they're holding in a lot of stuff that has to be like let out first before they can actually start like no prioritizing and you know, doing the steps and actions I need to actually be able to manage it? Do find a lot of people are holding onto stuff that they shouldn’t? Dr. Michelle Clay: Hecky yeah they are. But I'm releasing that is part of releasing the stress. A lot of times if I'm having a session with a client and they start crying, that's already started the process. So for a little science there are different types of tears. So we have some tears, for instance, where you get something in your eye and tears form because it's trying to cleanse that particle, that foreign agent out of your eyes. When you cry because you are emotional, you're experienced sadness or something like that. Then there's actually some of the stress hormones in those tears. So even with the crying to release, so like I said, it's a process. It's a process. You have to crawl before you walk and many things go hand in hand. It's not an either or. Then than this. When this, then this. Is hand in hand. (Okay). One thing that I find people are holding onto a lot is unforgiveness and anger. Dr. Berry: Is that okay when you run into these people who have this level of forgiveness for whatever reason, how do you kind of go about saying like, okay, educated and say like I know it's tough, I know it's hard but you're going to have to, you know, release this if you want to move on. Right? Like is that an easy conversation? And then part B is, and I always ask this cause I was asked, cause I feel like from a male standpoint where we always fall behind, do you find that most of your clients, women or men, do you find that men are receptive to this level of education we're in, because I feel like men have a lot of stress because they are masculine and we don't call it stress? Dr. Michelle Clay: That's correct. Okay. So let me go to a Part A of the question first. Let me go in order. So usually when I have a client and I'm talking to people, there's a wisdom that comes with age. So I have gray hair, but I cover it up there. Am I being transparent? But with that gray hair comes wisdom and wisdom is knowledge with experience and I couple that together to help people. Right? So there's just some things that you get like a sense about and you sense the type of personality that the person has and how they will receive things that you say. With some people I can just cut straight to the chase and say it, but other people have to be soft and Shinto and puts some onions and then they feel better about disclosing information. Now I'll give you an example. I had a particular client that was holding on to unforgiveness. And the person that they unforgiveness toward had already died, like years ago. This happens all the time, like years ago. So what I had her do was write a letter to this person and they expressing everything to them that they never had the courage or opportunity to say let out all the anger with that. And then if you really wanted that person to forgive you then just envisioned that once they read it they said, I'm sorry or I forgive you or please forgive me. And that really helped her release. It really, really did. So I have all kinds of tips and tricks and strategies up my sleeve. Dr. Berry: I love that. So they know they're like, oh yeah, we we're going to be ready for whatever ever problem you bring Dr. Michelle, she is ready for set problems. Dr. Michelle Clay: And if I don't have, if I'm not the right person or that's not my area of expertise, because there's some people they really need to go to a therapist. So I will refer them to a psychiatrist or therapist or somebody because anytime you're trying to heal is not a one man show or one woman show. You need a team. Now who was that that just won the championship? The Raptors. Did you see one person on the court? No, it was a whole team. And then sometimes what happens is you have to rotate. Some might has to sit on the bench and take a rest and put another player in. So that's the same concept for people who are really trying to take it to the next level with their health or wellness or reclaim the person that they used to be long ago but has been burdened down with stress and burnout and just life and health issues and this, that and the third. Now Part B of your question, most of my clients are women. That's just who I attract. I do have some man. I'm open to all because one thing that my godmother told me, she was like a natural healer was that you should have the ability from a natural standpoint. You should have the ability to help anybody but you're not supposed to help everybody. Translation, some people you are meant to connect with and some people you were not, but you still have the expertise and the skills to help anybody. Dr. Berry: I love it. Now for the men that you do have, do you find it to be harder? Do you find that your work's cut out for you? Or by the time they come to see you, whatever barriers that would have been there that made it difficult for him to open up have kind of been disintegrated, quote unquote? Dr. Michelle Clay: So it depends on the man. So for the men who already knew me, then by the time they come to me, they're ready and they're committed. For the men who didn't know me, let's say they did a Google search or something and they called and made an appointment and we started working together. Sometimes they have ulterior motives or they may be attracted to me. They don't call… bullying page. Like I have someone right now who is not my client, but I feel like he has an ulterior motive. So I just keep it professional. And if you're not serious, I'm not going to take you as a client because you a disservice. And I'm just honoring myself. Dr. Berry: I love it. I always find, it's funny because what you're saying definitely kinda hits home because there are a lot of my male patients who say that part of the reason why they can't go to, you know, women who are physicians, right? Or who are healers right, is because they feel like they can't open up, right? They're like, oh my God, I can't open up this person here. Right? The person gonna look at me different. All of a sudden, you know that meant. You know we're terrible, right? We get there. We just started questioning ourselves and saying like, Oh man, if I open up with her and this person, like the whole world's going to know, and I don't want to be quote unquote less of a man. And you know, it's definitely a struggle that even though I as a male physician, I see that. I can only imagine, what you guys go through. Dr. Michelle Clay: Well, let me speak to the men's directly. Gentlemen, please hear me. Please hear me. First of all, I want you to know that I'm gonna speak for the women regardless of what they say or do. We love you and we need you. And when you tap into your power and your strength to show your vulnerability, we actually view that as a power and a strength, not a weakness. So yes, I want to tell you that directly. Dr. Berry: I love it. I love it. Alright. We hype now. We’re ready. Go for it. We like it. Dr. Michelle, before, I didn't talk to your head off, right? But before I let you go, I always call this kind of like the period of promotion. Because I'm very fortunate enough to have, you know, guests who such amazing things that yes, they're physicians. Yes, they're in the health field, but like they do so much more. So obviously, you know, we've been talking and like, I want you to kind of tell people, what are some of the things that you do kind of outside, right? And most importantly, I want to talk about this RNR Experience, right? I want you to kind of, let's start there. And then we can talk about all of the books that you have because Lunch and Learn community, she's got plenty of products and we're going to get all of that. And trust me, depending on wherever you listen to that, I would make sure you have direct links to all of that as well. But let's talk about the RNR Experience. Let's talk about the why, what is it, how did it come to fruition? And you know, like who's it for? Dr. Michelle Clay: So the RNR Experience is a freelife because that's the name of my company. Freelife seven is a free life retreat and it occurs in the big easy New Orleans. So many people who are experiencing stress come to the big easy and be easy. And it occurs November 1st and second. So as a VIP registrants, then you will get two days as general registrant, you will only get the one day. But that one day is power packs. I'm gonna go into that in a minute. Your question, how did it come to fruition? Because people asked me for it. I'm gonna be honest with you. Putting on an event that you know will make a great impact on people and help transform their lives, not just for them, but for whoever else that they touch. So you want it to be quality, it has to be quality. You have to put forth and have the vision of being an excellence. You have to move in excellence. That's a huge undertaking. The only reason I'm doing this is because people would come up to me randomly and say, oh, Dr. Michelle, I'm going to come to your retreat.  Dr. Berry: Right like hey, I'm coming to your tree. I don't even know when it's scheduled, but I'm there. Dr. Michelle Clay: Yes. I hadn't said anything about a retreat, but they come telling me they're going to come to my retreat. And so if that's the case, then there must be a need. And so I'm giving you what you need. I'm giving you what you want. I'm giving you what you asked for. So what the RNR Experience, and it's not just a retreat, it's an experience. (Not just a retreat, it's an experience. I'll listen). Release and recharge. We've been talking about release this entire podcast about releasing stress, but once you release that, you need to recharge some things. And we are so caught up and focus on recharging our laptop, recharging our cell phone. But we do not recharge our bodies, our minds, our spirits. So we know what our purpose is and we can go forth and be brilliant. Dr. Berry: Oh, talk to them. Some of us won't leave the house if our phone wouldn’t charge. Talk to them, talk to them please.  Dr. Michelle Clay: Exactly. So for my VIP, our first day, I have a wonderful fun experience for you. And then later that evening will have culinary cures and coaching with Dr. Michelle, a private dining experience. Now the reason I call it culinary cures in coaching is because you are able to use certain food items, certain nutritional elements to help with your stress. And because I know that I have created certain herbal teas to help with that, so that's one of the products, but as a VIP we're going to have a specialty tea, T-teeny, incorporates all of that.  Then on the main day, a lot of my super friends are coming in to share with you. And we have Dr. Carol. She's going to be doing movement and meditation. She has a book Meditation in the Time of Madness. We have Dr. Sam, one of my super friends who's going to be coming in and talking to you about sleep. Remember I told you chronic stress can affect your sleep and she also, she knows some great trigger points to help with your stress and your sleep. Then we have Dr. Mia coming up who is the B3 specialist. She's going to be talking about your beauty, how you see yourself beautiful. How to maintain, achieve balance and your belief about yourself in the world around you. Then I also have a super friend who is an artist. She has her own gallery here and one of her pieces is actually in the national African American museum and she's going to be guiding us through an exercise that you can incorporate once you get home on how to use art and creativity to release the stress and recharge your creativity. Creativity is not just about art pieces, painting, drawings, sculptor, but about what you are creating in your life, the footprint that you leave on the world. Dr. Berry: Oh, that's an amazing day. Yes. Okay. You know what, this will, we're going to do. Let's do this. Let's do this for Dr. Michelle. Obviously with Lunch and Learn community and you know, amazing information as you gave today. Let's list this podcast. This podcast will sponsor a general membership or General Day, right? Whatever that general ticket is, right? I don't know how you, I'll let you decide how you want to give it away, but you give a ticket away on behalf of the Lunch and Learn community, on behalf of the Lunch and Learn podcast with Dr. Berry because I think people need to experience that, right? (Yhey!)  Because as I'm thinking, I'm trying to think the last time I left this house and didn't have my phone charged or last time I like I would skip sleep even if it was for a few seconds to make sure my phone was charged. But we're walking around on a daily basis, not recharging our mind, not recharging mental or spiritual and all of these things that really keep us going and we're not doing it. And I'd so I want to sponsor someone to, to get themselves recharged and getting themselves ready to take on, especially this last quarter of the year. Dr. Michelle Clay: Yhey! Thank you Dr. Berry. Thank you Lunch and Learn community. There is, I don't know who was going to go to, but I'm going to donate that ticket to a woman who, or man, we're going to see, because I love the men. They struggling. They really feel stuck and they do not have the means to get there on their own. That's who was going to go to. Dr. Berry: Let's do it. Let's do it. Now, so that's the RNR Experience, which is big. But honestly you've been in so much big things, even up until that, right when it comes to books and the teas and everything else, and just give them a laundry list of the stuff that you got right? Just so they know that Dr. Michelle ain't playing out here.  Dr. Michelle Clay: I am not playing in these streets. First of all. Well let me tell you this, RNR Experience. You can get your ticket at releaserechargeexperience.com and its Christmas in July. So you can get the early bird pricing in the month of July. But if you wait too long, they said you think long, you think wrong. So the price is going up.  Dr. Berry: So the price is going up. Y'all know y'all going to New Orleans anyways, right? Y'all gonna be there. It makes them get recharged. You just self-ready right and of course link we'll definitely be in the show notes to make sure you have a direct link to that. Dr. Michelle Clay: So the other things that are going on, I have my best selling book, Conquering the Chaos, The Super Wonder Woman's 12 Step Strategy for a Stress Free Life. I also have the companion journal with that, the Stress Release Journal. So in the book, in the 12 steps it goes through, we talked a little bit about it today. It goes through the 12th systems of the body, how they function, because I think that you need to empower people with information to activate their transformation. And then how stress affects that system in the body of culinary cure for that and mindset. Something for your mindset with that system, the stress Release Journal, the Companion Journal for that is a deeper dive into that. So you're reading and educating yourself in the conquering the chaos book, the now you need to get to work. Then I also have my stress free life, self-care kids. Oh my goodness. This thing right here just keeps exploding. So people, they want stuff. So in there there's a tea and this gonna be four different one per quarter. So one is going to be the release recharge box with the signature release, recharge herbal tea, which is specially formulated to give you a sense of calm and ease is how this is base. And then you also have the semi-precious stone bracelets, agate bracelets with lava beads on them and I'm mixed up a special essential oil aroma therapy oil to go on the braces. So anytime you know, you feeling some just instantly calm you down, just smell your wrist, just smell your wrist, and aroma therapy at the same time. And then I've also created the relaxation remedy, herbal bath. And you can put that, either do a full bath or just do a foot bath. I'm going to do a foot bath this evening. We also have the Free Life Candle because people love to smell things. (People love candles). Yes, the Free Life Candle.  And we also have shower steamers. These things are amazing. So have you ever heard of shower steamers? (Oh No. Wow.) Let me tell you about it. So the shower steamers, they're a little square made out of like baking soda and some other things infuse with certain essential oils so you can put it on the bottom of the tub while you're taking the shower and having aroma therapy experience. Because some people they like, girl, I haven't had time to take a bath, but you still need to have a moment for yourself. Self-care to stress less. You can have your me time create a me time moments in the shower. Dr. Berry: Oh, that's nice. Okay. I'll tell you Lunch and Learn community see doing it, that line. See, that's a problem. I love it. That's a good problem though. That's a good problem because again, we're trying to stress less, right? We're trying to find my free life like that. That's really the name of the game and that's again, that's why I love and respect everything that Dr. Michelle does because the amazing work that she puts in and the effort that she puts in shows you how much she cares. Right? And you know, we're running to, unfortunately there's, there's a lot of physicians who have infiltrated our system who don't really care as much. Right? And you know, so when you find someone who does, you try to make sure you amplify everything that they do so others can know like how amazing this person is. Dr. Michelle Clay: Thank you. Yes, this is definitely my purpose and I'm so very passionate about it because everything that I'm telling you, I've done all of that. My affirmations, every day I wear my bracelets, I'm sniffing all day, I use my shower, steamers, light my candle, meditate, pray. I do all of that. Dr. Berry: Practice what we preach, practicing what we preach. (Yes). Before I let you go, like I always ask this question like how can what you do empower others to take better control of their health? Because it's obvious, but you know, in case for some reason someone that skipped and miss all of this greatness and wanting to go towards the end, right? And this is all they listen to too, right? Like how is what you do empowering others to take medic control of their health? Dr. Michelle Clay: First about you have to know that you know that you know that you are worthy and you are deserving. It's not about being here for somebody else is about being here and showing up for you. And the goal is not to survive, but it is to thrive. Know that you are never stuck. As long as there is breath in your body, you can always decides to choose you and to do better so you'll have better and be better. So I want you to know that you're never stuck and also that you're never alone. Whether it's me, whether it's Dr. Berry, whether someone else that can help you get to the next level. If you don't have people around you that support you, honey, you can create another circle. (Yes). You can another create circle which you're never stuck. You are never stuck and you always deserve them. Dr. Berry: I love it. I can show before we let you go, but where can others find you? Again, all of these links, remember Lunch and Learn community, you know the drill. We'll have all these links in the show notes but I want to make sure that they can follow you. We lead and you know, be able to kind of just absorb this greatness that I'm able to absorb at a daily basis what I love to see. Dr. Michelle Clay: You can find me on all social media at Dr. Michelle Clay. My website is drmichelleclay.com and for the Lunch and Learn community, then I would love to offer you my special recipe for the stress free life smoothie and you can get that as stressfreesmoothie.com Dr. Berry: I love it. I love it and I appreciate it. Based on behalf of the Lunch and Learn community, we want to thank you, Dr. Michelle for just an amazing experience. Like I said, I say this like on a week to week basis, but like I'd be learning just as much as the Lunch and Learn community from my guests. Like I'm either like, if y'all can see my face, I'm glued in. Like, okay, got it. Got To lose this,, got to manage it. Cant be dealing with it, got to manage that. That's the goal. Changed the words. Words are powerful. That's the way to go. They don't wanna show you have a great, and again, like I said, remember we want to sponsor who, I don't know who you choose, who we're sponsoring. But we've got, we need to get someone to get that experience at the RNR Experience, Release and Recharge. When is it happening again? Let us know. Dr. Michelle Clay: It's November 2nd. Dr. Berry: Okay. November 2nd for the general, you want that VIP, you come in on the first, right? So if yall big ballers want to VIP, go in on the first, right? Then you get a T-teeny, is that what we called it? Yup. Dr. Michelle Clay: Yeah. Make that up. Good. T-teeny is by experience. Dr. Berry: I love it. Thank you, Dr. Michelle.   Dr. Michelle Clay: Thank you for having me. Everyone have a positive and stress-free day.     Download the MP3 Audio file, listen to the episode however you like.

Show Notes Networking for jobs comes with a number of pitfalls. Getting in the trenches with other people, setting up these meetings by introductions requires some finesse.Scott and Andrew Don't miss these Topics:What makes a good networking introduction.Best practices to improve the number of meetings scheduled with key people.What can go wrong during the introduction process.Managing the expectations of each party involved.Developing your own standards and professional etiquette Understanding the possible responses and what they mean.The value and occasional inaccuracy of LinkedIn.Resources (including affiliate links)National Business Employment Weekly: NetworkingWhat Color is Your Parachute iTunes: Rate and ReviewRaw and Unedited TranscriptView Transcript0:00 - 05:06Job seekers radio. I'm Andrew, and I'm Scott this production is meant to provide you the job seeking listener was support to find great careers faster. And that's whether you're working or not today job seekers radio were really going into the trenches by the trenches. I mean getting into the fray with networking, right? There are good and bad. Right. We we have to learn how to roll with bunches. And certainly if you've been looking for work for a long time that gets a little tougher you feel like you're pushing the boulder uphill. So we want to go over a few things just to sort of keep us on track. As we continue in these trenches know that you're not alone. There are people in the same boat or in the same trench mixing my metaphors here networking works. Even when you have those uncomfortable moments. It doesn't mean that networking isn't for you. It just means that. That specific connection may not be a good one for you, Scott. I have both been in the trenches. And we've seen the good and we've seen the bad at we're going to share with you some of the things that we've learned through a lot of uncomfortable conversations. And also a lot of good conversations. Really? Yeah. What those look like. And and really the thing that you need to focus on a job seeker is I the introductions right? And so what makes a good introduction? And when you approach this think about what are your expectations. Both in terms of how the introduction is made. And how the the person is responding, and the reason why I start with that is generally when we walk into something that with expectations. We are probably going to be disappointed at the point. I try to help people understand that whatever your expectations are be prepared to have them to be disappointed because. Not everyone is going to respond the way we would. And that's okay. We are going to get a riot of responses. And if we start looking at what might be behind that what may have caused that person's specific response. We may be able to gain a perspective that gives them the bench for the doubt. It may. Also, give us information that we want to know that would steer away from that person future. And we'll get to that. I just really think about baggage. We've all got baggage or skeletons in the closet, whatever I like to think baggage because at least minus Louis Vitton right down. What's in? It. Could be a well, we won't go with the idea being that we all have things that were going through. You know, I think about the top stressors. And there's been a lot of research done on. What of the hardest things for people to go through all the first one is death of spouse. The next one would probably be something. Divorce? Right. The third one would be something like moving apparent that's in the hospital or child in a house. Right, right. There are lots of things up there. So we don't know because we don't control that side of the question. We can only control the introduction. We may. And having an understanding an empathy when we make that introduction. If I made an introduction for you wanna find out first, what is your interest in meeting that person? So that I can then confidently make an introduction four you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Rina, where are you from?Rina: I am from Davidson, Saskatchewan, and it's a small town in Saskatchewan, about 1,000 people, and I grew up there.Todd: Now, Saskatchewan, that's a part of Canada that doesn't have a lot of people, right?Rina: There's, in the whole province, there's a million people.Todd: That's it.Rina: In all of Canada there is only 33 million, so yeah.Todd: And you only have one?Rina: One. There's 33 million.Todd: Yeah, actually, is there any major Canadian cities in Saskatchewan?Rina: Well, the capital is Regina. (Really) Yeah, if you've heard of that.Todd: NoRina: But I live in, right now my parents live in Saskatoon.Todd: Oh, OK.Rina: And that's, my town is between Regina and Saskatoon, called the midway town.Todd: What's it like growing up in a very small rural setting?Rina: It was awesome. My parents, because they immigrated from Lebanon were very strict with me so I really wasn't allowed to do very much until I was about in grade 11, when my brother was old enough to come with me, but it was, once I was able to start going out and going to dances and things like that I loved it.Todd: Oh, really, even in your small town?Rina: In my small town, yeah. Cause I had it, I was very close with a lot of, like a very small class, very very close with a lot of people there, yeah.Todd: Sounds good. So, in all of Canada, like when you go back and you settle down and you live in Canada, do you want to live in Saskatchewan?Rina: No.Todd: No.Rina: No, it's not, it's, I've developed a lot more since I was that age and it's just not the same anymore. I'd like a bigger center, preferably Vancouver, or Montreal, on one of the coasts. Yeah. So.Todd: Not Toronto?Rina: No, I'm not a big fan of Toronto.Todd: Ah, why?Rina: Because I'm a little jaded. When I was, in 94, we went to Niagara Falls, and we drove through Toronto and it was just so, it looked so busy and smoggy and just crazy, and so I never really liked it since then. I have that image in my head still of that.Todd: Yeah, well, that's how I feel about L. A.Rina: Yeah.Todd: Yeah. I don't like Los Angeles. OK, well thanks.

Speaker 1: All right, what's up all your Rad dads. This is episode eight and I've got a special interview for you guys. Speaker 2: So the big question is this, how do regular dads like us who weren't given a playbook on parenting will only have 24 hours in a day to make it all happen How do we provide for our families in a way that will allow us to raise happy, successful children and have a thriving marriage while still being a man and doing the things we love That is the question and this podcast will give you the answers. This is Rad dad secrets. All right everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I told you have a very special interview in that we do and the man that we're interviewing today happens to be a totally rad, bad and not just that Speaker 1: he happens to be the biggest hero in my life and it's my dad and I was lucky enough and blessed to have a dad that was as amazing as him that taught me everything that guided me. Married an awesome woman, took good care of her four kids. The best part. He has a huge story because he had no example and he did this completely on his own and completely I Marvel at what he has done and it's something that I think we can all glean from his wisdom and what he has done and I want to introduce to you guys. My Dad, he's a chiropractor, inspired me to be a chiropractor. Dr William Wagnon. Welcome Dad. Speaker 3: Thank you. Speaker 1: So let's jump right into this. So give us a brief history. Where. Where'd you come from What What made you decide to be a father Give us your story. Speaker 3: I'll start off fairly brief through other things will pop into my head, but I grew up without a dad. Basically. My father left when I was seven years old. Never time again until I was 39 and I didn't get a Christmas card or not a word from him and so didn't know how to be a father. Really Yeah. But I did know what not to do. Yeah. You know, and after I met your mother, I know that she was absolutely gorgeous. In fact, I could take, take you to the place where I first met her and I remember she was driving a a light blue Volvo, but I knew she was beautiful. She's kind, she's sweet. As I got to know her, I realized that she'd be at it. Fantastic wife and a fantastic mother and she could help me learn what I needed to do, but she could pick up where I was faltering, which I knew there was going to be places. Speaker 1: I've heard that story many times. I love it. I wish we can go into more detail on that, but what were you hoping. I mean, I know you, you didn't have a father to give you the example and you met my mom and she was awesome. You knew that she'd be kind of the Yin and the Yang. She'd be able to balance out in those ways, and I know you guys have worked together and I've been married 15 years now and I know it's no easy road and parenting and all that, but when you got married, what were you hoping to be able to the most as a dad and before you had kids at what Going into that What were you hoping or wanting to accomplish Speaker 3: I wanted my children to know who their dad was, what and where he was at all times. One of them I know that I love him with all my heart and as much as I could possibly love anything, Speaker 3: but I wasn't sure. I was kind of afraid, you know, I had some, some external struggles and trials to go through and it must, like everyone in first gets married. I was 23 year old and your mother turned 21 four days after three days after we got married. I struggle with a lot of things, you know, making money, how to support, going to school at the same time always held down a job. I have to pay the rent. Uncertainty of, you know, how to provide for me and my wife and the struggle of possibly bringing children in, which we knew we do sometime and so it was kind of a gamble on my part and not having that example, but the internal struggle that I had, Speaker 3:

Sex Positive Primary Care ft. David Alajajian, MD ***DISCLAIMER: KB ONLY*** This podcast is a series of interviews with medical providers, mental health professionals, community members and advocates. Each interview represents the opinions of the individual. Individuals may use different terminology than what you’re used to. The intention is to educate not discriminate, and we welcome positive and constructive feedback. Please keep in mind; this is not a replacement for medical care or advice. I am simply presenting my views along with educational information that will be both evidence based research and external networks that have an impact on LGBTQI and nonbinary health care. Consult your provider for any medical or mental health concerns. My name is Kerin “KB” Berger and welcome to Queer MEDucation! ***INTRO MUSIC*** ***INTRO TO EPISODE: KB ONLY*** Hello and welcome to our pilot episode of Queer MEDucation, a platform to educate medical professionals and the general population on LGBTQI and nonbinary health care. So many LGBTQI and nonbinary individuals are constantly asked sexual history and past medical history questions that are not applicable. Today’s episode will highlight creating a sex positive environment in a primary care setting with a physician practicing in Los Angeles, California. Thank you for joining us and I hope you enjoy this interview. ***INTERVIEW: KB AND DAVID ALAJAJIAN*** KB:                  Hey, what's up? It's KB. I'm here with a very special guest today. I'm going to allow this person to introduce themselves. DA:                  Hey. I'm David, Alajajian. I'm a primary care doctor, internal medicine and I specialize in taking care of the LGBT population. KB:                  Awesome. And where are you practicing currently? DA:                  I work at a practice called Pacific Oaks medical group. It's technically in Beverly Hills, close to West Hollywood. KB:                  How long have you been there? DA:                  Um, it's about a year and a half now. KB:                  Awesome. And tell us a little bit about Pacific Oaks and kind of how you got from your training to that particular setting. DA:                  Um, so I did internal medicine residency at, um, a residency program in Long Island, at Northwell Health, um, Hofstra Northwell School of Medicine to be exact. And I was looking to move back to Los Angeles with my partner at the time. And, um, I signed up with a recruiter and I had just told them, hey, I'm looking for a primary care practice because I'm passionate about preventative medicine. And they said, well, here, we'll set you up with a bunch of interviews. And, um, they said, you know, one day they called me and they said, well, you know, there's this practice that's been around since the 80s, and, uh, we're having problems finding the ideal person for this practice because a lot of people are uncomfortable working with gay population. Would you feel comfortable, um, interviewing with them and I just lit up and I said, you know what, um, this would maybe be a perfect match for me because not only would I feel comfortable, I feel like there's a lot of life experiences that I've had that I would find as an asset to that practice. So when I went and interviewed there, I learned that Pacific Oaks was actually, um, started in 1979 by a couple of doctors who, um, uh, felt like the needs of the gay community weren't being met by some other practices, that there was a lot of discrimination. People wouldn't handle HIV positive blood at the time. And it had, you know, uh, blossomed during the AIDS crisis and now still lives on. Um, although with some different directions. KB:                  Did you ever see yourself kind of going in that direction or even know about this particular specialty? DA:                  You know, I really didn't know that this was even a career option going through medical school and through residency because I felt that there was a paucity of experiences for me to to see lgbt medicine and then to also see mentors and role models in those roles. So it was really very life changing for me, um, to discover this. And I was kind of surprised that I'd never been exposed to it in any capacity. KB:                  Yeah. And I think that's pretty common. Um, as most of our listeners have gotten through medical profession professional training, um, that people just didn't really know that this even existed or exists in very particular settings. Um, but I think that's changing more and more now. Hence how your recruiter found you, which is amazing. DA:                  Yeah. KB:                  If you don't mind telling the listeners a little bit about your background prior to medical school, like your journey to becoming a physician. DA:                  Um, so, um, I grew up in a very sort of traditional Armenian family where it was expected that you were going to go into some form of the sciences. And so I, um, and there was a very heavy sort of emphasis on, um, going into something that has like an academic leaning towards it. And, um, I did my undergrad at UC Berkeley where I studied molecular and cell biology and I also found things like virology and immunology really, really cool. You know, how the immune system fights against different, uh, pathogens and stuff like that. And that made me want to work at a lab at UCLA for a couple of years where I did, um, immunotherapy research. And I realized that there's really cool information out there, but I didn't, uh, get that human interaction that I was really longing for working in a lab. I really wanted to be able to take all the cool scientific innovations and be able to translate that to people and see how that could change people's lives and see how that fits into people's lives. So that's what kind of, um, uh, made me want to go to med school. KB:                  And were you, um, out during your training? During medical school and residency? DA:                  Yes, I was, but, um, uh, I guess there's different sort of degrees of out and in retrospect I'm realizing that I was struggling, um, uh, through being 100% comfortable with all aspects of my life at that time. Yeah. KB:                  Meaning like separate from medicine and your training? DA:                  Yeah, I, um, so for example, um, if I were put on the spot, I would identify as gay, uh, but I'd be concerned about people's in, um, reactions, uh, while I was going through training. And so I tried to keep my personal life pretty private. KB:                  I see. Yeah. Did you ever have any negative experiences or is more just a feeling of sticking out in a negative way? DA:                  What I felt going through medical school and then going through residency was, um, um, you know, medicine is a very conservative field in general and there are certain, there are certain perspectives and viewpoints, um, that permeate the medical field, um, that aren't as sex positive as, um, uh, um, I would have liked it to have been, there weren't as many, um, lgbt mentors for me and I did hear a lot of negative comments and, um, the, some of that probably comes from lack of education. Uh, but I do think that there's a lot to be done in terms of medical education and graduate measured medical education in terms of building cultural competency. Um, I think the medical field approaches gay people in a medicalized or problemize sort of way. Um, so how does, how does, how do certain behaviors pose an STD risk? How is this a high risk population? Not how is this a community? How do they interact when they're not here? And that could be stigmatizing, that could be oppressive. And there was a lot of opportunities here to turn that around. So KB:                  Absolutely. I think like one thing that Queer MEDucation tries to do via instagram and this podcast is to try to destigmatize, um, not only the queer community but also the medical community. I mean, I think you're a 100% right. It's, you know, I've heard stories and been in clinics where you'd have a patient who is HIV positive and everybody has to know that that person is HIV positive. When reality is that the most basic OSHA training will tell you to take precautions around anybody. And as we know through our training and our, our, our experiences is that most people who are HIV positive are undetectable and not transmissible anyway, where sometimes you go into these medical settings and you're surprised that physicians and, and, and uh, nurse practitioners and dos and nps are not aware of that. It's, it's shocking, DA:                  Right, it is. And I remember being in groups of medical students or groups of residency groups and being prepared that, you know, you're about to enter the room of an HIV positive person, they're gay, um, make sure you, um, you know, make sure you censor yourself in a certain way and prepare yourself. You're about to meet people that, you know, we don't know a hundred almost. We don't a hundred percent approve their behaviors or something like that. And so the cultural competency was sort of presented in a way how to avoid a PR disaster, not how to understand and be part of other patients, which is pretty concerning. Um, uh, for the medical professional, the profession in general is just sort of the way that we distance ourselves from patients, um, can be, it's a little unfortunate. KB:                  It is unfortunate and so much of a, where that's created is from, um, ignorance but also lack of resources and you know, completely ignoring the problem in the eighties and nineties to the point where the community really stepped up. Um, and it was just immediately stigmatized in medicine and it's still continuing, which is sort of baffling being in 2018. DA:                  Right. And, and there's this perspective from the, from the viewpoint of doctors that when there's gaps, when we have to build bridges, it's the patient's gap. There's a, there's a lack of education, a lack of knowledge. They need to be taught. So for example, the lgbt community needs to be taught about std risks because they don't know enough. So doctors need to reach out and teach them that their behaviors are wrong or need to be remediated in some way. Or this resident, um, me, for example, I was pulled apart, um, um, from the group various times during my training and told that my mannerisms or my communication style or the way that I was dressing wasn't what their standards of, or their vision of what a doctor should be like. And a lot of these are very heavily influenced by heteronormative values. They're not, they don't necessarily have a scientific basis. Um, and it, if not sort of corrected, it could be discriminatory, you know? KB:                  So it sounds like, it was. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah. One of my rotations I used to wear, um, I used to wear ties and uh, when I went to my pediatrics rotation, I'd dress up really fun because they were kids and they were fun and the kids, they just loved it. And you could see the parents, some of the parents would kind of give you some interesting looks because I had pretty short hair and was more of a uh, quote masculine dresser at the time. And the kids, they would just ask very simple questions, why are you dressed like a boy? And I would say because I like to, and then we would just move on with our lives. It was such a beautiful thing. DA:                  That is beautiful. KB:                  Yeah. And I think it's really interesting what you're saying like this, just bringing it back, you know, because we're, you know, generally medical and is that, where is this standard coming from? Is it even relevant? And what is the necessity to conform to this sort of a white coat, um, standard? DA:                  Where do you doctors and other medical health professionals have to, in bridging that gap, have to educate themselves about the different communities that they're treating. You know, maybe medical students should get extra credit for going to a gay bar or something like that, just to see what the environments are like and what the situations are like. Um, uh, because a lot of it comes from a place of ignorance or lack of knowledge. And so when we do talk about that lack of knowledge, patient education, I think it's more, you know, doctor education to be honest. KB:                  For sure, for sure. No, I think you bring up a great point. I mean, I think historically, um, medical providers were just put on a pedestal and um, you know, kind of the all knowing beings and, and you know, things change so quickly. We have so much information now that it's almost hard to keep up as medical professionals. Whereas 60 years ago, you know, we didn't have half the technology, so it was a little bit easier to say, you know, I'm 100% sure the answer is this or that when we just, we have so much now. Um, so I feel like it's, it's, it's an interesting time to be a medical professional. And I know we've talked to this when we hung out last week, but this concept of shifting the mentality of we don't necessarily know everything and that's the point of all of us learning together. What has been like your, your transition to this very different sort of practice and how has that been for you? DA:                  So initially when I started working at Pacific Oaks, I realized too, that I am treating people who are in the same lifestyle demographic age as I am. And that was a very new experience to me because I was much more used to treating, uh, patients who are much older than myself and also, uh, uh, people with a lot more comorbidities. Um, I'm the a lot more disease states. Um, and suddenly I'm seeing young, healthy, um, gay, bisexual, lesbian patients who are just getting preventative medicine and are coming here for advice and those sort of standards that I was brought up in, in residency, um, standards of professionalism suddenly came into question because I would have patients go to my boss and complain and say, you know, we think this new doctor that you hired is a little bit stuck up and a little bit, um, a little bit dry, you know, um, he seems to be our age and relatable, but we can't really get into conversations with him, like real life things and sort of a switch went off in my head and I realized, you know, the way that I talk to friends and the way that I talk to family, if I just bring that into the clinic and just be real with my patients, it's going to go a lot further than me to be sterile and detached the way I'd been taught to be. And there was a complete transformation. And, um, how I, um, interacted with my patients in how I was received and people started opening up to me. People started telling me things that I never thought that they would share with anyone, very personal things. And I was actually in the position where I could research this stuff and actually give them good advice about what to do, um, in real life scenarios. So it was amazing because I suddenly felt that work is bleeding into life and, um, and I can really tap into, um, um, my passion for taking care of this community but also my interest and, um, uh, my own personal life experiences. So that was really cool. KB:                  That's awesome. And, um, since you've kind of switched, how has that been with your patient interactions? DA:                  Um, I think very, very, very positive. I think that, um, uh, people always, especially in a primary care doctor who you establish a long term relationship with you, we're looking for trust. Um, uh, I feel especially when you're in, um, the lgbt community or any marginalized community where you've had certain experiences where people haven't 100% made you feel comfortable. Um, whenever you feel comfortable in sharing some of the things that you, you know, you're not going to be judged about, um, there's more trust with your doctor. And, um, with that honesty and trust comes more information and um, um, that's where, that's where the magic really happens. KB:                  I completely agree. I mean, I think like the, you know, we all learn medicine the same way. There's standards, there's protocols. Um, but people don't, your patients don't see you because you were number one in your class or you had the highest board score. Um, they see you and continue to see you because they develop a relationship with you and, uh, uh, trust with you. That is very special. I think. So I think people forget that sometimes. Probably, you know, when you're immersed in that academic setting like you were describing, it's, you know, you're almost trained like, this is how I'm supposed to be some sort of robot. And then you get out there and patients give you feedback. Like you got it. It's like mind blowing. And, and how positive that was for you as a professionals. Sounds incredible. DA:                  Oh yeah, definitely that sense of satisfaction and that sense of, oh my gosh, you know, I was the person that, that person needed at that moment. It's huge. It really propels you. It's, it could be really addicting to people describe medicine as being an addicting, especially primary care as being, having this addicting quality to it where you never really come home from work. And I'm having the pleasure of finally experiencing that. KB:                  Yeah, that's awesome. It, it's definitely the medical dream, that's for sure. Um, so, um, tell our listeners a little bit about kind of the, uh, practice and maybe I'm kind of how you create that sex positive or just general openness at Pacific Oaks. DA:                  So what I've noticed is that, um, just given our life experiences and, um, the environments that we all grew up and, um, being part of a sexual minority was normalized only to a certain extent. So you see gay characters, lesbian characters, um, gender nonconforming characters in movies, and they typically fit into certain roles and you don't see the whole spectrum of the diversity, especially the diversity of sexual expression, Um, um, just by going through life. And so people have learned, um, and are in the process of unlearning how to censor themselves and censor themselves with their doctor. And so my strategy and trying to elicit kind of that diversity is bringing up scenarios and examples. So for example, if I think that someone is highly sexually active and um, um, has had multiple partners, I'll bring up an example, and, I'll say, you know, sometimes people go to places like white party or another sex party and they'll have sex with like 20 different people. Um, but I'll see those patients commonly and then I'll std test them the following week. Do you fall into this category? And it kind of normalizes it. I feel like it giving it breath like that, giving it life like that, um, makes the person to understand, hey, I know I'm from planet earth. I know the situations you're in, the people that, you know, they also come to me, so don't feel weird about this because people are concerned that they're going to be judged for their behaviors or that their behaviors are unusual. I want them to know that it's totally usual. It's very usual. KB:                  For sure. For sure. And it's hard to know, you know, because I work in a sexual health clinic so people come in and they know what they're comfortable talking about, of course in it, in context to the provider that they feel comfortable with. But um, you know, I think in primary care is sometimes it is a little bit more challenging to open up that conversation when you have a whole bunch of other things to get through, like all of your screenings and, and what not. Um, so I think that's really a great tactic to kind of make it, um, uh, applicable to just the regular world setting. DA:                  Yeah. I can't tell you how often I 'll get a new patient and they're here just for a regular health screening, a yearly physical. And I bring up something like, um, you know, sexual practices. And I ask them, well, do you need to be on PREP for example? And just the fact that I know about PREP that I even mentioned it so casually an entire dialogue, we'll start from that and the purpose of the visit will completely change and it'll just become a sexual health visit. And at the end of that, I'll get a comment like I never felt so comfortable sharing with my doctor. Um, all my sexual health stuff, I can't believe that you brought that up. And that's kind of unfortunate that other doctor's offices, it's not, you know, we learned so much in medical school and in training about how to elicit sexual history, but I think there's an art form to it and everyone has their own style. KB:                  Absolutely. Absolutely. So there's lots of different listeners out there. Why don't you tell them a little bit about PREP since you brought it up and you know why that would be pertinent, pertinent questioning in your particular practice. DA:                  So PREP is a medication. It's a combination. It's actually a combination of two medications in one pill that was previously, or it's still part of HIV treatment, but that one pill by itself is now used, um, as a once a day medication to help lower the risk of HIV transmission and people who are considered, uh, to be at risk. Um, so taking PREP once a day, um, uh, um, you know, over a period of time and being exposed to HIV, you know, lowers, the risk of, um, uh, actually getting HIV and um, it's a very, it's a very great sort of breakthrough in that, um, our hope is that it's going to help along with other things. Um, eliminate, eradicate lower the overall global HIV burden, which is huge. KB:                  For sure. And what patients would you kind of bring that up with or what gives you the sense that a patient might be a good candidate for PREP? DA:                  So in some of the, in some of the studies looking at PREP, um, uh, people who were prescribed PREP, um, you really saw that people were very good at, um, uh, having insight into their own sort of HIV risk. So when they looked at PREP compliance and then they looked at sexual behavior, they saw that people were very good at gauging just how much they were putting themselves at risk. And so, um, so I go by the patients, you know, own personal sexual history. And where I start to advise is when I see that there's a lot of condomless sex with partners who's HIV status is unknown. Um, uh, yeah, the multiple, multiple sexual partners with um, uh, people with unknown HIV status. And I'll add a little amendment to that is that, you know, we, we were taught in medical school to, you know, sort of advise people to, you know, ask your sexual partners about their most recent std testing. And I've found that it's not all always the most effective way for them to get good sexual histories from their partners because sometimes it's a conversation ender, you know, when you ask somebody, hey, have you been HIV tested? You might get a yes and then that's it. That's a conversation ender. There's not a lot of quality to that conversation. So I've also been advising people to, you know, ask more detailed questions. When did you get tested? Um, uh, why did you get tested? How many people have you been with since last time that you got testing? Um, which adds a little bit more contoured to that territory. I feel KB:                  Definitely. And there's so many different, uh, ways to provide your partners with, um, a std and HIV information. Now I'm like, I know there's apps out there where you can have all your testing, a lot of clinics, um, use different resources like Health Vana or other kinds of standardized, um, services so that people can actually pull up results with the date and the information. Um, so partners can kind of be on the same page. DA:                  Yeah. And there's anonymous texting services that text, uh, multiple partners telling them that they may have been exposed to an STI, um, you know, sort of prompting them to go get tested then or treatment. KB:                  And I want to commend you on, um, the way you talked about prep because I think again, when you're in your medical school or, or medical training programs, when you, generally, most of them are present Truvada in the context of your infectious disease, a lecture when you're talking about men who have sex with men. Um, and, and the reality is that anyone who's having condomless sex with multiple partners is at risk for HIV. It doesn't matter how you identify, um, uh, with your, your sexual orientation or your gender identity. Um, really the risk comes from the type of sex that you're having, how much sex you're having and the partners that you're having. Um, so, so I, I thank you for, for being very, um, uh, politically correct when talking about that because I think so many people, just, even when you read the CDC, you know, it all, it says, you know what men who have sex with men, men who have sex with men, IV drug users, sex workers, and it's like, well, 20% of new diagnoses are cisgender heterosexual women. And, um, just because, and, and I know we can, we talked about this will be hung out, but just because somebody says that they're married doesn't mean that they're monogamous. So that's a whole other conversation piece. DA:                  And also, you know, in terms of, um, you mentioned, um, new HIV diagnoses and cisgender women. Um, I also really bring up the conversation of, you know, how safe people feel in their relationships, especially when we're talking about, um, sex workers, people who are non monogamous, you know, are they being forced into these situations? Do they feel like they're, uh, how empowered do they feel in these situations? Um, in terms of, um, you know, the topic of consent, um, I think it always has to accompany the safe sex conversation. Um, uh, so, so, so that's another piece. KB:                  Definitely. What are some recommendations for some of your clients who maybe have multiple partners or maybe are having more condomless sex besides, uh, pre exposure prophylaxis? What are some other medical recommendations you would make for those people? DA:                  So, I'm so happy you asked this question because going through residency, I was taught to advice people to, um, minimize the number of partners they have as much as possible. And I always found that recommendation to be lacking a, because I don't think that it has a sex positive leading, you know, sex positivity is about encouraging different sexual experiences and trying to promote their safety at the same time, not trying to make sexual experiences heteronormative, um, necessarily monogamous necessarily for procreation, but also that sex is pleasurable and it's a vital part of people's health, wellbeing and happiness. And so there's a little bit of a conflict there. And so how do you turn that into a politically correct medical recommendation? You know, uh, this end, the spectrum is from have no sex whatsoever because there is an infinitesimal, std risk associated with any sex versus have very risky sex. Um, without being tested. So my recommendation is, um, finding good ways of having very open dialogues with new sex partners. And my firm belief is that sex is safer, um, more consensual and more pleasurable if there's a lot of dialogue and communication about, you know, the, the, you know, what's on the table, what's not on the table, you know, um, what risk is this associated with and what's your status going into it? And what do you plan to do coming out of it? So I encourage my patients to have those types of open dialogues. Um, and the way an open dialogue starts like that is by setting a good example. So I tell people, you know, volunteer your own personal information first, um, show that you care about your sex partners, health and wellbeing, you know, tell them, hey, listen, I got tested August 22nd. Um, my gonorrhea and chlamydia were negative then, but I've had one partner since then. I don't suspect that I got anything from that partner, but you never know. And now it's November. And, um, let's have, you know, we're planning on having oral sex. Um, I don't typically have anal sex, but if we do, I'm going to use a condom. Something very detailed like that. Um, uh, in order to give your partner as much information as you can and also show that you care about their wellbeing. Um, so, so, so that's my top sort of recommendation in terms of how to have the safe sex talk. KB:                  I love that. Do you find that patients are receptive or come back with, you know, positive and or negative feedback with that information? DA:                  So some patients receive that information very well. I had a very honest conversation with a patient this past week who is HIV positive and he revealed to me that he was very anxious about having the HIV positive conversation with the types of sex partners, uh, that he's having because, um, A: um, uh, HIV positive people are still unfortunately sometimes stigmatized or treated differently when they revealed their status. And B: there's very little information out there about, um, uh, not, I should rephrase that. There is information out there, but the widespread knowledge about, you know, undetectable status meaning untransmissable the level of trust you need with someone before, um, you could trust it, they're undetectable. Um, is, is, is it different sort of conversation. And so it wasn't as well received, but it opened up this whole dialogue about, um, how do I feel accepted as an HIV positive person among my sex partners? And it, it, it, it got the gears grinding a little bit so, so I found it to be very, very positive. KB:                  That's awesome. I mean, unfortunately, yes, there's still a huge stigma. Um, and that's one of the things we're trying to do through this platform is really to dissolve that as much as possible because people that work in this particular field, that have worked in this particular field know that people who are undetectable, who've been in relationships for many years with HIV negative people, um, that the HIV negative people never seroconverted. So we've, this information has been kind of known for awhile if you worked in the field, but now the CDC is finally expressed that. That expression, unfortunately, and fortunately by organizations like the CDC will help destigmatize. Definitely. Yeah. Um, so any other medical recommendations for our patients that you'd recommend? I mean, for example, I know for y'all through the CDC, for men who have sex with bed or men who have sex with that of women, um, certain vaccinations are recommended. Um, how do you go about making sort of, uh, alternative preventative recommendations with your patient population? DA:                  So a couple of, um, avenues that I feel, um, are lacking in terms of preventative care for these populations. One is, um, Gardasil or the, um, the vaccination to prevent HPV or the virus that causes genital warts, rectal and throat cancer. Um, um, seems to have really over the past 10 to 20 years, um, reached, um, the female population in terms of preventing cervical cancer. But, um, many men have missed this vaccination, especially men who are having multiple male, um, sex partners. And so I bring this conversation up because now there's a new recommendation to extend the vaccination period up to, um, the mid forties. Um, uh, I don't know if insurances are 100% following suit. Um, which is a little bit problematic, but for a patient population, I'm here in Los Angeles. I always put it in it in these terms. We live in a city where we pay $140 for a yoga class or we paid $12 for an energy drink. So if you think about your, if you think of your longterm health and how this vaccination is going to prevent cancer, I think that, um, um, even if insurance is ended up or the payers and if not not covering the expenses, you know, it might be worth the investment to be protected against, um, the ninth, the strains of HPV. Um, so that's one, uh, um, a recommendation did I kind of have a dialogue about, uh, the other one is hepatitis A vaccination, which, Uh, there was a recent outbreak in San Diego, um, about a year ago, um, and the homeless population. But, um, uh, because of its fecal oral transmission, um, actually anyone who has oral, anal intercourse, it should be vaccinated for hepatitis A. And again, um, if you're traveling to areas that are prone to hepatitis A, it might be a win win. Um, so, uh, people often traveled to South America or Southeast Asia and um, um, it's a sort of good to hit two birds with one stone. So those are a couple of things that I bring up in my conversations pretty regularly. KB:                  Yeah. Is Hepatitis A something you would get, um, or let the listeners know what, you know, is that something you would get, is that part of your regular vaccination schedule as a kid or is that something you have to seek out? DA:                  So I've found, um, that um, despite recommendations, um, many people have missed hepatitis A vaccines. They would, so you would a, you would, you would standardly not get this as a kid. You would not get it growing up as a kid, you would, no one would have said, oh, you're a five. Let's give you the hepatitis A vaccine. So no on that one. And second of all, a lot of people have not gotten the hepatitis B vaccination or gotten screened for Hepatitis C. There is a recommendation that if you were a baby boomer and to be screened for Hepatitis C, but, um, oftentimes when you go to your, um, um, std, checks you get gonorrhea, chlamydia, syphilis checked. Um, Hepatitis A, B, C, it's hit and miss depending on where you go and who you see. Yeah, KB:                  For sure. And how does, um, Hepatitis A, B and c correlate to, um, sexual health? DA:                  Um, so hepatitis A, hepatitis B and C are, um, sexually transmitted. They could also be transmitted through blood. Uh, but the way that we talk about it as we talk about their sexual transmission, and so, um, uh, bodily bodily fluids like semen can transmit these viruses, which I end up infecting your liver. And longterm, they could cause liver failure, liver, liver cancer, and longterm consequences. But found out early they could be treated. Uh, hepatitis C could be cured. Uh, but hepatitis B has a vaccine that prevents you from getting it at all. Um, there's an interesting thing with hepatitis B and PREP because PREP has this effect of if you're infected with hepatitis B at the time that you stopped taking your PREP, you're in, you're in danger. So, so that's an important thing to have tested if you haven't already and you happened to be on PREP. KB:                  Yeah. So a lot of times with the routine starting, um, labs that you'll get when you do start prep, um, not only will you get a metabolic panel and sti testing, but you also get a hepatitis panel, which will include a hepatitis B screening for infection, um, in addition to A and C as well. But, um, what, um, what David's talking about is when you are on PREP and, and, uh, so, so Truvada is also used to treat hepatitis B. If you go off of your Truvada, not knowingly having hepatitis B, you can have what's called a rebound infection and it actually can cause a death. So a very important, um, to talk to your provider when you are starting prep to make sure of the testing that you're actually getting is appropriate. So that's a really good point. Yeah. DA:                  And I've seen that situation, the rebound, um, um, and, and it's quite severe. So it's important to, to, to bear in mind where when you, especially now that prep is being offered by some online services. I'm not sure how thorough their screening and informed consent processes, but it's very important to bear that in mind. KB:                  Yeah. And also I've had patients come in who start prep, um, through the, um, some online services, which are obviously some are better than others. And there with the followup was actually lacking, meaning they had a positive result and then did not find out for a little bit. So really important to stay on top of your own health before anybody else's. DA:                  Absolutely. KB:                  Um, so, um, you know, I know we talked a lot about, um, kind of sex in general. I did want to touch a little bit about, um, maybe different communities that you're seeing that aren't necessarily discussed, you know, on the CDC or whatever his website. Um, I know that you have told me a little bit that some of the patients populations that you see as part of the poly community. And I kind of wanted to kinda hear a little more about that and tell our listeners a little more about that. DA:                  So, you know, I do see a lot of patients who, um, uh, don't fall into the sort of heteronormative sort of, um, uh, cultural norms that we're all familiar with and um, seek out a more sort of sex positive environment for their primary care and in a lot of aspects, um, uh, they share a lot of things in with the gay community. It's great that there's the, the medical term MSM or men who have sex with men because, um, although we might not see this sort of popularized in the media, there is the gay community men who have sex with men, but there's a large number of men who identify as street who have male partners occasionally. And so hence that term. Um, of course that term doesn't give justice to the LGBT community and all their struggles in history and what not. But it's important to recognize and realize that, um, there is sort of a very heterogeneous, um, population of people out there practicing many different kinds of sexualities. And so I see polyamorous couples, um, who identify as straight and they may have, um, male or female, uh, partners. Um, and, uh, in terms of std risk, std screening, std education, it's important to sort of evoke all this knowledge that we've learned from treating the gay community and extended to, um, uh, an increasing proportion of the street community. KB:                  Yeah. Again, and I think, you know, one thing that I've, uh, you know, as a patient myself, notice when I'm in, you know, and, uh, um, somebody taking a medical history on me and they'll ask, you know, are you single? Are you married? And do you know if I say, Hey, I'm married more often than not. Um, the, the conversation completely shifts assumingly, that I am monogamous, for example. Um, so, and, and so many people are not. And, um, I think, you know, especially in the primary primary care setting, you have such an opportunity to not only protect the patient in front of you but also their po, their marriage partner, especially if they're in a poly relationship. I mean, I think you have a dual duty there DA:                  Right and sometimes one of the partners is monogamous with their husband or wife, but maybe their husband or wife. Um, I had a patient and I, I kinda, I kind of find this unfortunate that, you know, the way that this information is presented to the provider is little apologetic and almost, you know, explaining once often think, you know, before our visit is over, I just wanted to let you know that my husband has a boyfriend. And I said, that's totally fine that you could share that with me. But I just wondered, I wish that we could create an environment where that information is, you know, people feel more comfortable expressing that information. And you know, I kind of internalize that experience and said, you know, I should ask a little bit more direct questions I should ask. You know, we always worry about offending and saying, you know, like, well, you're married. Does that mean you only have sex with your husband? But we need to really get over that and say, and be able to ask those questions because so many people, um, uh, live a very different spectrum of lifestyles then that we were accustomed to just growing up. And it's just the reality, KB:                  Right? And it's, you know, it's so amazing how media has such a big effect. You know, what you see on tv isn't necessarily the norm to everybody. Um, yeah. You know, depending on how you live and what your life is like. So it's, it's the same when it comes to sex and marriage and all that. Um, but I think it's so important to protect your partners, uh, especially if your ear married or in a relationship with someone else and you're open and they think it's crucial to be able to present the conversation of sexual history in a way that, um, because we're so used to getting defensive about it by nature of our expression in our experiences, but being able to, um, really presented as a, I'm asking these questions because I need to know them so we can better your health outcomes. DA:                  Yeah. And I think part of that is maybe just more normalizing the concept of sexual networks and, um, you know, just putting that out there and saying that, hey, everyone has their sexual network. Um, it's not infinitely large the way that, you know, it's been depicted in the media that the gay community has this infinitely large sexual network. The literally all have sex with each other. That's not true. Um, they're limited and they're not infinitely small where it's just a husband and a wife. The way you know, tv would like you to think, it's just, it's everything in between. KB:                  Exactly. And that's what makes medicine so exciting, um, to me at least, is that you never know what's going to come in the room. And that's part of, you know, not only do we like to take care of people, but I think we also are problem solvers at heart and, and, and in mind. So, you know, the more differences the better. Right. DA:                  Absolutely. KB:                  Yeah. Um, is there any other particular populations or groups of individuals that you see that you kind of want the listeners to know about or have more recommendations about? DA:                  Um, so, um, I think that we covered, um, you know, a few different sexual minorities. One, a group of people that, you know, I would typically not lump into sexual minority is half of our population is women and women's health is a huge, um, um, area. Um, that is, I guess for lack of a better word, lacking. Um, and you know, now that there's, you know, fears about a funding for planned parenthood, um, I'm seeing more women, um, in need for basic primary care, uh, including, you know, just pap smears, mammograms, breast exams, and, um, I think that women's health, um, is an area that I'm very unfortunately is now becoming a health disparity and, um, uh, you know, half of our population is becoming a sexual minority. Uh, just kind of bizarre, but that's a, that's a big a population that I take care of is just women for their, uh, women's health issues. Um, KB:                  When you say women, do you mean like cisgender heterosexual women or DA:                  They're heterosexual women, but also just women, women who need their annual pap smears, mammograms, um, um, std checks and, um, everything else that's, we know, women's health related. KB:                  Yeah, for sure. I think that's a really great point. Um, even in our clinic we've noticed, I think since planned parenthood as has, maybe the funding has gone down, people can't afford to go there anymore. Um, and they've been coming to see us a lot more. Um, and you're right, the resources are totally lacking. I mean, one example of, of a, I feel a disparity is in the topic of bacterial vaginosis. I mean, we've known about it forever. It's a chronic problem sometimes for, for, um, anyone who has a vagina basically. And, um, there's no research being done on how to fix this problem that is a continuously a problem. So, um, yeah, I think that's a great point. And hopefully, um, the funding, you know, unfortunately it takes a public health problems to get the funding. Um, I mean, I think we're seeing this with std rates, but unfortunately I don't think the funding's coming out of that, but yeah... DA:                  And that's what happens is, um, um, uh, groups become, you know, blamed for these outbreaks and um, above the, uh, moralistic sort of messages usually tied to it with them, which, um, and it comes down to economics. Really? Yeah. Shot costs $400. And insurance doesn't pay for it. You know, you can't turn around and say, Oh, it's your community that's causing a syphilis outbreak. It might be that, oh, we didn't prioritize it. We didn't value it as a society and we didn't take care of it. KB:                  Absolutely. While we're seeing that right now, that's for sure. I think I saw about four cases of secondary syphilis on Fridays clinic and it's just everywhere right now. DA:                  It's alarming, but, but, but what's even more alarming is, uh, you know, uh, I mean you work in a different setting than I do, but I commonly run into the problem where, um, uh, people's insurances deny, um, that the injection that's curative of um, uh, syphilis and, um, uh, people are finding that they have to pay out of pocket or try to search around for a limited resources, a free clinics and, um, um, stayed with the disease state longer than they should. So. KB:                  Right. Which is this making everything worse in terms of health outcomes for our patients. So do you have any particular advice for other primary care or internal medicine practitioners on how to create more of a sex positive environment for their practice? DA:                  Yes. So, um, I would say having done this for only about a year and a half, um, I have learned a lot, even coming from the LGBT community, I had a lot to learn and I still have a lot to learn. But having images, um, you know, even, um, non traditional couples, um, in, um, I didn't know in your lobby, in your hallways, um, having, um, thinks about resources posted on bulletin boards, uh, creates a more sex positive environment. I'm talking about sex in a very de stigmatized way in a very normalized way, creates a sex positive environment and um, uh, but you know, get close to your patients. You don't have to distance yourself. You know, it's one thing to be diplomatic and polite. It's another thing to be distant and cold and clinical, um, or sterile. So, and there's a fine line there. KB:                  For sure. For sure. Um, so just to kind of wrap things up, why do you feel like your job is important? Loaded question. DA:                  Yeah, I think that my job is important because I reach out to, um, a group of people who otherwise wouldn't get the same information, the same care delivered in the same way. Um, and at a time where there's a big need for it. Stds are on the rise. Um, the need for taking care of, um, uh, this group of people is becoming more and more and more. And um, historically, uh, um, uh, the group's been marginalized and stigmatized by the medical community and I think we owe it to them. ***END INTERVIEW*** ***CONCLUSION: KB ONLY*** For information about future episodes or to contact us, please visit us at our website www.queermeducation.com or email us at queermeducation@gmail.com ***OUTRO MUSIC*** 

Is Surtex really worth the time, MONEY, and energy that designers invest? Surtex recently moved their show to February, giving designers only 9 months to design patterns, textiles, and prints for the show when they normally prepare for an entire year. .......................................................................... Check out the Blog Post by Shannon McNab: .......................................................................... https://shannonmcnab.com/blog/2018/7/1/surtex-announces-new-dates-for-2019 ..................................................................................... FREE 2019 Trend Guide: Get the PDF download! ..................................................................................... http://bit.ly/2La8B2H ..................... INSTAGRAM @LaurenLesleyStudio ..................... Be sure to subscribe for more design LOVE! Business tips + creative strategies: ................. http://bit.ly/2LGqRNE   .......................... 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Speaker 1:                    00:04                I'm Lauren, of Lauren Lesley studio and today I want to introduce you to special guest, uh, Amanda Brady and she's here to talk to us about her very first experience showing her pattern and designs at Surtex. So we're about to dive into 11 questions and Amanda is going to honestly answer all of these questions so that moving forward, if you're thinking about showing at Surtex, you'll have a great idea and know what to expect in 2019. So before we jump into the questions, make sure to like this video, leave a comment or question below and we'll try to answer those to the best of our ability and definitely subscribe to my channel if you haven't already. All right. So Amanda is a founder of Green Hound press and I'm at her very first Surtex show she was on print and patterns blog, which is incredible. Not sure how she did it, but she's very talented and amazing. So here's just a little snapshot at her Surtex, um, with her artwork. And um, I've been uh, rubbed designer for the last seven years and I'm excited to say that some of my rugs have ended up in anthropology, so that's like any designer's dream. Um, so that's just a little bit of my background and we will jump into the questions. So Amanda, can you tell us how did you become a designer in the first place? Speaker 3:                    01:27                Um, well in high school I was on our journalism staff and discovered photoshop and I loved it and I went into college, going to be a journalism major because I didn't really know graphic design was a thing, so I was like, I'll just be a journalism major and then I can lay out the like, newspapers even how little I knew about anything. And then my cousin is a graphic designer in Maine and she flew out for a wedding and she was like, oh my gosh, I'm a graphic designer because our families aren't really super close because we live so far apart and I'm. So yeah, she showed me all of her stuff, gave me all these magazines and I like changed my major the next day. So that's how I became, that's the very beginning of how I became a designer. Okay, cool. Speaker 2:                    02:19                Okay. So what inspired you to go to Surtex in 2018? Like how did you get from deciding to be a designer to ending up at Surtex? Speaker 3:                    02:28                So back to my cousin Aaron in college, I will flow out to her house and she showed me all of these patterns she had made and it never had dawned on me like, oh, people actually make these. I mean it's just one of those things you don't think about them because they're still part of our lives and I'm so I became obsessed with making patterns in college, but I kinda just did it as a hobby, you know, I'd have files in my computer and I did that for like four or five years and my husband was always like, what are you gonna do with those? I was like, uh, put them on instagram. Some, of course I'd heard Surtex. So I, in February of 2018, I emailed Surtex to ask about the 2019 show and the woman who runs the show called me and she was like, why would you wait til 2019? Why don't you do it for 2018? I was like, I don't know because I don't know. And she's like, you're totally ready. And so I just like made kind of like an impulse decision. It was like, alright, I guess I'll sign up for the 2018 show. Speaker 2:                    03:24                Oh that's so cool. I can't believe that happened. I didn't realize it was that spontaneous and Speaker 3:                    03:29                it was. I mean I've been kind of checking in on this show, like for a year or two, but like, oh yeah, I'll give myself a year and a half to get ready for the show and myself three months basically. Speaker 2:                    03:43                I know I would feel like I needed at least a year to get ready. So when you signed up kind of last minute, did you feel ready once you were there or were you like, that's okay. Like I could have had more, but I'm, I have enough. Speaker 3:                    03:55                No, actually I am glad that I didn't have a year because I think I would have waited till close to the last minute anyways, and since I had such a short amount of time, there was no time to really stop and second guess anything. It was just like I had to go on pure instinct. Like this looks good to me. This is what I'm doing. I like this, this is what I'm doing because I didn't, I didn't have the time to debate it. Really? Yeah. So, um, especially like with the booth design and stuff, because you have to have so many weeks to get that stuff printed and shipped to you. And then I wanted a little wiggle room in case something was wrong to get a reprint. So it was just boom, boom, boom. Speaker 2:                    04:33                I kind of love that Speaker 3:                    04:36                actually for me it worked really well. Good. Okay. Well, what can you tell us about art licensing? I'm still not that much. I didn't know what to expect when it came to the actual, like selling a patterns at the show. And I brought like order form sheets and I couldn't find anywhere in anyone's blog or anyone who had talked about Surtex about the actual selling of the patterns. Oh, okay. So I came prepared if people wanted to buy them. And then I just, what I've been doing now is I got, oh great number of contacts from tags. So I started like an e-blast basically that I send out when I make a new collection and I will send it to these people first so they get, before I even put it on instagram or anything, I'll show it to them to give them an opportunity. So that's just what I've been doing since the show. But I haven't actually done any licensing deals yet. So that's why I don't, I'm, I'm still not sure how that works. And I'm really curious to see in the future how that goes. Speaker 2:                    05:47                Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that um, sort of the path that you want to go down with showing your things at Surtex or do are you wanting to do more like client work? Work? Speaker 3:                    05:57                I'm really anything I, I would definitely love to get some licensing deals, but since I'm still so new I'm not, I'm not sure if like I'm going about getting the licensing deal the right way or yeah, I'm still, that's very murky waters for me still. I understand that side of stuff. I'm like, can someone else just take care of this for me? I know I think so many artists are like that and I think that art school doesn't really prepare you well for the business side of things or there's not like. I Dunno, I mean it seems like some artists out there have a agents and work with agencies and that seems like one way to do it, but you don't really even know how to make those connections in the first place. And so my next question was going to be, are you working with an agent? Speaker 3:                    06:49                I'm like, are they trying to get you licensing deals or are you still looking for an agent or are you going down that route at all? So the first time I ever even thought about an agent was at Surtex and an agent came up to me and was like, I would love to work with you, here's my card, um, and she's like, reach out to me at such date and it was a couple months after and I don't even think I've reached out to her yet because I'm still deciding if that's what I don't want to waste her time. So I didn't want to reach out to her until I researched more like, okay, this is what I want to do. I'm an agent or um, yeah, I'm still trying to figure out just where I want to take this and where I want to go with this. And I think I've been kind of waiting to see something that naturally happens. But since I'm probably gonna have to like really, you know, start working a little harder at figuring out which direction I want to go with this, you know? And so I would not be opposed to using an agent. I just don't know if that's like, I just don't, I can't commit to that yet. I got Ya. So always. Speaker 3:                    07:57                Okay, well my next question is how did you prepare for Surtex, and I think you kind of answered this with them, you know, just talking about how last minute everything was, but are there, um, is there any advice you would maybe give to someone who is thinking about going to Surtex in 2019 and what are some, like kind of practical steps they could take to get prepared for this show? Um, well I did a lot of research and I, I tried to track down any blog, anything on pinterest I could find of people's booths. Um, you know, what they did for Promo items, just anything I could get my hands on. So, and then I spent probably a couple weeks, you know, when you get in that zone where you, you're trying to, hard things aren't flowing naturally. So I was definitely there. So once I got through that and I was like, you know, just stop thinking so much in doing what I naturally know to do. Speaker 3:                    08:53                It went a lot smoother. But I um, I definitely looked at a lot of booths and was like, okay, what's, and I was really kind of harsh thankfully, like it was just in my head, but like what's working with this booth, what's working with this booth, how can I incorporate that into my booth, you know, and then I noticed like how did people actually showcase their patterns and a lot of people had that big portfolio books are like printed large pieces of paper and I, I don't know why I just did not want to do that. So I made an actual catalog of like a magazine spread of all my patterns and I took that and I made like 100 copies and gave those out so people could take my portfolio with them. I'm not smart. It worked really well. I was in um, yeah, the magazines weren't super expensive to print because that was one of the reasons like I didn't want to like print this super expensive portfolio or even like the sheets of paper. Um, because like they'll print like these big sheets of paper. Yeah. Speaker 2:                    09:55                Where did you use to print? Um, your magazine? I've heard of like blurb and I don't know, Speaker 3:                    10:01                I used a company called overnight prints. Okay. Yeah, it's decent quality, especially for what I wanted it for and it was pretty inexpensive. Um, and so yeah, that worked out really nicely for me. So yeah, was like, well was traveling. What's the question again? Speaker 2:                    10:23                I know I kind of got you off topic, but yeah, just getting or any advice to get people. I'm kind of like a checklist of things that they might need to feel prepared for their tax going into 2019, like obviously your, you did a lot of research on your booth and kind of what that is because like you could have all your designs, but if you don't have a way to showcase them then you're not really going to be able to show at Surtex. So you know, you can go in with an ipad and be like, here's my staff. Um, Speaker 3:                    10:52                I definitely think you have to think about the whole picture. Um, when I was at Surtex one woman, I forget who it was, she was a buyer and she goes, I love your booths. Set up and she goes, I love that you even matched your booth. Like, my outfit matched my booth. I didn't plan that. That's just colors. I'm kind of gravitated towards the details. Do matter so much. Like I would have never even thought to match my clothes to my booth, but it made sense if like, you know, you have a muted color Palette that's kind of your aesthetic, but you're wearing like neon bright clothes, like you're kind of like presenting yourself as a brand almost. Yeah. I would definitely say think about the entire package from setup to what you're wearing to what your promo items are. And then I also had printed fabric samples and I had pillows made. Oh cool. Brought them down. But um, yeah, my cousin made me these cute little pillows with my patterns on them and I had them up on the behind me so people had things they can touch and hold as well. And I think adding just a little element of like, oh this is where so people could see were these patterns could live I think really helped. And I got a really positive response. Awesome. Yeah, people want to go grab them. I can like pause our recording. Yeah, I'll go grab them real fast. Hold on. Speaker 3:                    12:19                I grabbed all my stuff. Okay, cool. They're up in my kid's room so I had to go track them down. So yeah. So I made this pillow while at my cousin made this fabric I just had made at spoonflower and then I had this little pillow and so these were like setting up on a little shelf so it kind of looked like a mini store. Love it. And then I printed off some fabric samples that I had hanging off my booth so people could come up and touch it and look at it and look through the fabrics. Okay. And that was a very um, especially for it because, you know, a lot of my stuff is very childlike and sew fabric would be like a very ideal. So, um, that was like created some huge talking points. So did all of the fabric you get printed on spoonflower and is it all digitally printed? Speaker 3:                    13:21                It is all digitally printed. I um, I actually just like made squares and then made this huge file of like each square and then uploaded that one file and then to save on costs and then just cut like each fabric. Oh, that's so smart because like, it's so expensive to go. So it's like you don't want to like, you know, break the bank on all this stuff, but at the same time you want to like, you know, the details do matter. So of course my little catalog that I made for the show did some mock ups, like I found some nice photoshop ups online and like, you know, because I really wanted to show people like here's what you could do with this pattern. So. Right. Um, but yeah, this was like a big hit because people could just take it and then, you know, like a business card gets lost. But this is like, yeah, you're not going to lose that. Yeah. So, and I'm sure buyers are meeting with so many different artists at Surtex that they probably have a hard time remembering who they met with or you know, it's like even with a business card, they're like a kinder, remember, but maybe not. But with that, they, there's no way they're going to forget like your style and. Oh no, because I put everything in here that I showed. So yeah, they were. Speaker 3:                    14:44                So yeah, it was um, this was like, like I said, it was supposed to be like a cheaper decision is why I initially it and then it just ended up, I had a lot of success with it. So that's awesome. Speaker 2:                    14:58                Yeah. There's only kids pillows. Okay. Did you focus on a particular medium when you were creating your patterns for Surtex? Like did you focus on more like digital drawing or like watercolor or. Um, and tell us a little bit about your, more about your style and kind of what you focused on and if you kind of noticed what other artists were doing as well. Speaker 3:                    15:22                Um, so I am very vector art. Like that's my thing. That's what I love to do. Um, so everything I do is vector. I'm like 98 percent of my work I do as an illustrator. So that's what I know. That's what I love and that's what I stuck with at the show. I noticed every style under the sun at the show you see a lot. I saw a lot of watercolors, a lot of, a lot of digital art. Just. Yeah, there was. I'm trying to think. Speaker 2:                    15:55                Any new trends that you noticed? Like in terms of like medium, I'm like, did you see more hand drawn? Things are more like graphic or modern style. It's got clean styles. Speaker 3:                    16:08                I would say watercolor was probably the style that I saw the most that it actually stuck out in my mind. Like, oh, there's another watercolor. Oh there's another water color. But they were still so different. So I'm, I'm guessing that that was kind of trending at this show a lot, a lot, a lot of Christmas art. Speaker 2:                    16:28                Oh, okay. I bet that's a huge. Um, I know, I just feel like, yeah, the seasonal businesses is really huge. I interviewed with um, international greetings at one point and I ended up deciding not to take the job, but they were saying that they would need me to come in like every week for their Christmas season and for Valentine's Day it wasn't like that all year, but it was an app like that enough where I was like, I don't know about this. Speaker 3:                    16:58                Oh, a whole booth. That was just Christmas. Like that's all he did, that's all these women did was Christmas stuff. And I mean I knew it makes sense that the holiday market is the biggest. But one of the big agents that I talked to, um, she told me that it's like 80 percent of surface design is florals or Christmas or like. Yeah, it was like, yeah. So that was, that was eyeopening. Speaker 2:                    17:26                Yeah. So then it's like, what do you do? Because you know, if that's 80 percent of the business you want to be a part of it. But then the competition, I'm sure it was also so high that you're like, you, I should focus on something more niche. Speaker 3:                    17:38                It is. Well, I think because like buyers know that that's the stuff that sells, like florals are always going to be in florals are always going to sell, so it's like a safer by to buy a floral as opposed to like a Llama were only like a few people like llamas or you know. Speaker 2:                    17:53                Right. It's funny though, I will say that in rags and this is so nice and specific, but I'm a rug designer for those of you who may not know. And I mean they have been like anti floral for like a long time. I think just because the lattice designs and even like Persian designs more like oriental, unlike traditional designs have kind of come back into style. Um, but I think we're just now starting to like get back into florals. Even an outdoor, like I design outdoor rugs and I'm like, come on, like I think we can do some florals now. Now that you said that, it's like, oh yeah, I don't ever see floral rugs anyway. Yeah, I think it'll come back, but it's like fitness. All right, well my next question is what kind of collection did you present? Um, and I know you just kind of showed us your products, but if you want to tell us kind of what was your thought process in terms of making a collection, like were you trying to focus on kids products or some other kind of audience or niche Speaker 3:                    18:58                market? So like I talked about earlier, I really struggled the first couple of weeks and I was just overthinking it over trying and just everything I came up with was like, so forced that you could just to me it read is like forest. So I went to a couple parents, I created a year or so before that I loved and never did anything with and it was a farm theme. And so kids, um, the kids stuff is what I really love and, but I, I try not to be too babyish. Like I like kind of like the kids stuff that like you could turn it into an adult thing and it still totally work. Um, like go for anyways. So yeah, so I kind of went with this whole, like farm theme farm. Like there's like a little farm truck and a cow in some corn. This was like a coordinate to go with it. And I had this little, I had this little pig everywhere, a little pin of him. And so yeah. So, you know, when I made these patterns it was just for fun. I didn't have any shows lined up. I was like, maybe I'll put this on instagram, but it's, I, it was just for fun. And so to me they appeared more natural of my style. Speaker 2:                    20:14                Yeah, yeah. That's interesting that you were able to kind of go back into the archives and pull out, you know, things that were just you like that you did for fun and they ended up standing out a lot and getting onto the print and pattern blog, which is incredible. Speaker 3:                    20:26                I mean, I'm a doubt. I didn't even know I made it up there. I just was like, because, you know, I check that blog all the time and I submitted my stuff and I was like, man, you know, good luck. Go out into the universe and about it again until I'm scrolling by and I see this armadillo pattern that I did and I was like, yeah, Speaker 2:                    20:44                oh Speaker 3:                    20:48                yeah. That was like that. I mean, that alone makes it worth going to certain texts. Like the fact that I made it on that blog. Speaker 2:                    20:56                It was crazy. It's amazing. Yeah. Congrats. Thanks. So how much did Surtex cost in total and do you feel like it was worth the cost? Speaker 3:                    21:08                Oh, this is where it gets tricky. So by the time was between flights, hotel food and the booth and all this stuff. I bet I spent between 4,505 grand. Yeah. So it was a very huge investment so far. I would say it has not paid off financially, but that being said, I also am so new to this world that I feel like I needed to take a very crucial step like this to keep going forward and to figure out, okay, this is what I need to do to make money at this. And so since the show, I've just been doing things to keep working towards getting a licensing deal and making money at this. But um, yeah, it was, it was very expensive. Speaker 2:                    21:59                Right. So yeah. My next question was going to be, um, did you walk away with any licensing deals, which we already sort of touched on? Um, yeah. So you're, you're not doing that yet, but it sounds, I don't know, I follow you on instagram and it looks like you are working on some, you know, client work, some illustration. Speaker 3:                    22:19                I did. I have one client that came out of nowhere and I think the fact we talked about me going to Surtex and I think that gave me a level of um, the word, um, my credibility. Credibility. Thank you. And so I do think it helped me get some other gigs but not in surface assigned, but yeah, so I have been getting a lot of um, I have been in client work, um, illustration client work, which is really exciting. So um, yeah, no it was, I wouldn't say it was a waste of money, but it definitely, it was a, it was a nice chunk of it Speaker 2:                    23:02                change. Yeah, it's enough to make you maybe second guess. Are you planning on going back to Texas in 2019? Speaker 3:                    23:13                No, and I was never planning on going back unless I like knocked it out of the park. I wanted to make my money and like double it before I would commit to going back because since I was a first time showcase or you get like an intro discount and you get a really small booth which is awesome because I mean the bigger the booth more expensive it is not only in terms of like it jumps I think from 3000, I think it was 3000 for the intro booth and it jumps up to $5,000 for one of those big boost. So not only did you have the $5,000 but then the banners and stuff to fill this space is more. And so I was never, like, it wouldn't have, I would have to make so much money to commit to going to Surtex 2019 because I wouldn't be a first time show buyer or show her. Speaker 2:                    24:10                Would you have gotten the same amount of space or would you have like you're required to be bumped up to that next? The bigger booth. Speaker 3:                    24:17                I mean they might've changed it because I think they changed a lot for the 2017 show. But yeah, you just had to go up to the next size. Like you couldn't get that intro space again and get like someone like me that's just because those spaces are really for like the agents who have like multiple artists. So it's really easy to fill. I mean because the blues are like the size of a room. They're huge. So it's like little old me in this like, you know, I just, I couldn't justify that yet. So yeah, I never had plans to go back as bad as that is. I like, yeah, I made like a ton of money but I didn't. So I was like, well, Speaker 2:                    25:00                yeah, I mean, I don't know, it makes me wonder, you know, like how many times would you have to go before I did start to pay for itself? Um, because I read some blog posts by some other artists who felt like they had gotten enough gigs out of it to justify the cost. But I mean at the same time, I don't know, like I have to wonder, I don't know, like you're still like, yeah, you're maybe justifying the cost, but do you really want to give that portion of your earnings to a show like that? And would you maybe still be okay without the show? Like do you really need this show? Are People gonna forget about you. Do you have those relationships with buyers where they're still gonna come back to you year after year, um, for work or maybe is it that you go every other year or something like that? Um, I don't know. Like what was the general feeling that you got from other designers at the show? Speaker 3:                    25:56                So that was really interesting because the general vibe, everyone was like super pumped. I'm hearing from people who had gone to the show multiple times that like there was no one there, like it was really slow show your buyers know, buyers. I think the show itself have how many designers were. There was so much smaller than in past years. And um, I heard from a couple people that were also went to the blueprint show. Have you heard of that? Speaker 2:                    26:27                I heard about it from you. You had mentioned it to me before. Speaker 3:                    26:30                Blueprint was taken at the time I last year. Blueprint took place. Like it kind of overlapped with Surtex like a day or two. So it was like Blueprint's show and then right into Surtex show and there was a ton of people that showed at blueprint and Surtex and they were talking about how much better blueprint was in terms of how many buyers were there. The atmosphere was different. So I signed up for blueprint show coming in May, you did a third of the cost and everyone was talking about how much better of a show it was. So it was like, well I hate to totally give up on shows yet, but I, you know, so I wanted to try this show before I, you know, make a final decision on Speaker 2:                    27:16                these Speaker 2:                    27:18                surface design shows. Yeah, that's really interesting to hear that. It's a third of the cost. So do you feel like Surtex is, um, I dunno, I mean, do you feel like they need to come down in price? Do you feel like the price is justified? Do you feel like they just need different tiers or different options because it's like can't get the artists to the shows and the buyers aren't going to come because what's the point? The buyers aren't going to spend a week or three days or whatever it is if they don't have a good selection of artists to choose from. Like their job is to buy the best artwork possible. Right. So it's just kind of a ripple effect. Speaker 3:                    27:55                Well, once I got there, you know, and hearing all the thoughts and people talking about shows in general, it's like people go to instagram to find new artists now and they go to flower to find new artists. So it's like these companies aren't paying to send buyers out when they can just have their buyers scroll through their phones and so that totally makes sense. I still think there is something about meeting the artists and seeing their work. Um, so I think there's still a place for them, but I wouldn't be surprised if in like 10 years there isn't any of these trade shows. Speaker 2:                    28:34                That's interesting. I've heard people say that before, um, just even in the rug industry, which you would think with their rug, you would need to touch it and feel it more so than maybe with a pattern because the pattern can go on anything. But that's interesting. Yeah, it is nice to have kind of a meeting place for, um, yeah, like you said, like for the buyer to actually meet the artist and cultivate that relationship. But at the same time, at the end of the day, like there's a little bit of personal in it, but for the most part it's business and they're just going to want the best artwork. Speaker 3:                    29:06                Exactly. And what I learned from, you know, like the big fabric companies like Birch and um, cloud nine they want. This is just like some things I've heard from the show, so this isn't like factor or anything but that I heard that they want to see that you have a following before they sign you to a big fabric deal. Oh, that's interesting. That totally blew my on instagram specifically. Grant, they want you, they wanted, you know, to. I don't, I don't even know what the magic number is. But before, yeah, they want to make sure you have so many followers, you know, because then they know it's safer, you know, because they're like, oh, they have fans already. So these fans. Yeah. So that really was eye opening and it was like, man, I really need to focus on instagram. Speaker 2:                    29:56                No, I'm fine. I mean, this is kind of a tangent, but I find instagram to be so difficult to, um, I guess to gain a true audience on because there's so many people using bots and like on follows and follows and like even when people comment, it's like, you know, I love instagram for the visual aspect of it. Like I'm being an artist. Like I mean I really do love it and I love stories. I love using it, but I don't know, like I went in terms of growth they say to like focus on one platform and I really liked the SEO qualities that pinterest and youtube have because people can search and then the content that you made is evergreen, you know, like as long as you have the key words in there, like it can be found over and over again. Whereas instagram, it's only really relevant for like a day. Um, and he just is so much work. How do people do it? I don't know. Speaker 3:                    30:50                I talked to one woman, her name was Erin and she was, I'm writing an article so we had like a nice little talk about this and she was talking about how like not only do they want like instagram followers, but they want to see how many likes. So because like anyone can, like I could go by in theory a million instagram followers, I'm posting something and there's two likes that's like, oh, there's something off here. And it was just like so many things that I just never thought about like that. And then leaving the show I was like, Oh wow, you know, so. But it gave me a good thing to focus on like you said, because it is hard to like which platform do you focus on? But Speaker 2:                    31:30                yeah, I mean I definitely think instagram is a good one to focus on because it seems like that's what buyers are going to be looking at more so than like they're not going to go to your pinterest and say like, oh, how many people are following her on pinterest? Like maybe they should. Because once you actually look like there are some people that have hundreds of thousands of followers on Pinterest, but it's just not as popular, especially on your phone. Um, as instagram is, Speaker 3:                    31:53                it's so funny because I feel like I use pinterest as a tool for myself and like forget that it is another, like it is another media platform like that. Speaker 2:                    32:02                Yeah. Well, if you're trying to drive traffic to your website, it's really good too. That's what I've kind of found with it is that it's slow, but it's very steady growth. So I feel like when I first got serious about my pinterest strategy, I had about like 300 followers. It was just like my friends from when I first signed up for it, like back in South Carolina when I still lived there and we first met. Um, I mean, yeah, that cod, that was like 10 years ago. I don't know, I'm so old, but um, yeah. But then I started to implement like a more serious pinterest strategy and now I have over a thousand followers on pinterest and it's driving traffic to my website which should lead to sales. You know, so Speaker 3:                    32:49                okay. Speaker 2:                    32:50                You know, but if, if a bigger buyer seeing your stuff on instagram and you get a licensing deal that way, I mean you can go about it obviously multiple ways Speaker 3:                    32:58                but can't hurt to have. Especially because pinches, I feel like it's like you can link instagram to pinterest so you can close on instagram posts on pinterest. Same time completely given up on facebook though. I will say, yeah, well the business, I was like no things. Speaker 2:                    33:15                No, they suck with their algorithm. I think that's what scares me too is that they own instagram. So that's a little scary for me. I'm like, what if they do the same shit? They did the facebook and businesses spent so much time trying to get people to like their business page and I mean facebook owns it and they just took away the. Took it away with the algorithm. It didn't even show up in people's feed. Even if they liked your business page. Speaker 3:                    33:40                I found that and I get annoyed just with like your friends and like you know, so because they did that a couple months ago with instagram where they changed it where it wasn't in chronological anymore. It was like based on what they thought you wanted to see. Yeah. So frustrating. Like I'll make that decision as a woman. Like I will make choices of who I want to follow. Speaker 2:                    34:06                No, it's, it's messed up. I don't really don't like it. You should at least be able to toggle, you know, whether you want to see things and like recent in like chronological order or if you would rather see it based on their algorithm. Like you should be able to choose I think. Speaker 3:                    34:19                Yes. Speaker 2:                    34:23                Yeah. So, sorry for the tangent, but my next question was going to be a, do you think February will be good or bad for Surtex because they, I think they realized that they need to change something. So they've changed it to February, but do you see it as like a good or a bad thing? Speaker 3:                    34:39                I can't Surtex, or not Surtex, is national stationery show moving to February as well. I don't know about that. See, that's the part I should have researched that because certain texts is in this huge, huge convention center and there's Surtex on one side. National Stationery show was right on the other side, so it's all in one big room. And honestly most of the traffic I got was from national stationery show. They didn't realize I had so many people were like, what do you guys do? Like, what are you selling? And they were like, oh, we're part of the like, what's that, you know. So um, I'm wondering if like they're separating them if that is going to hurt them, but it definitely tells me that something is not going right to make because it's been in may forever. Right. So, um, yeah. So I just googled that. And the national stationery show is February third to sixth in 2019. So maybe that does have something. So is that, is that when Surtex is the beginning of February Speaker 2:                    35:45                and I know it's in February. Let me see when the exact dates are because that is an interesting point. Did were any of the artists talking about. Yeah, the dates are the fifth or sorry, the third through the fifth. So they are overlapping. So that's good at their key to they're keeping them together. Yeah, I definitely thought that was interesting. Speaker 3:                    36:12                Um, but I kinda just ignored it because I already knew I wasn't going back. So it was like, well good luck. Hopefully it works out better, but I know there was a, a general vibe in the air of like the artists were not particularly happy Speaker 2:                    36:27                about February, have less than a year to like make their new collections. Right. Speaker 3:                    36:33                Just that like people were like, where is everyone? Like what is this like, you know? And so it was, it was interesting for sure. There's a lot of gossip going on. It was kind of like high school but with pattern designers. Oh Gosh. But that's it [inaudible] like I hate to say I had a bad experience because I didn't cause it was so cool to get to like hang out with likeminded people, you know, how many, how many times have you like hung out with like another pattern designer? Like not very often, you know, so Speaker 2:                    37:09                I will say like my best experience was probably when I studied abroad because I was only with other artists and it was so fun. I loved it and I like grew so much just from being in that environment. Speaker 3:                    37:20                You really do. So that's why like, you know, because people have, I've had people message me on instagram asking about would you do sir again? And um, you know, I never know what to tell them because it's like, oh, financially did not pay off, but personally and like Speaker 2:                    37:36                you just point them to this video Speaker 3:                    37:40                because like typing on the ground, like I hate that. So yeah. Um, Speaker 2:                    37:47                okay. Well, okay. So the next question which we kind of touched on is if you wanted to approach a career in art licensing without attending shows, how would you do it? Speaker 3:                    37:57                Social media. And I heard from several people there, spoonflower, which surprise me because there's a lot of, um, I guess I just never thought of using. I'm sorry, my dogs whining at me. I never thought of using spoonflower as a platform. I just always used it for my personal projects or stuff like this. Um, and so that was really eye opening to me, but it totally makes sense that if you're going to do a fabric collection, you'd go to a place like spoonflower to see. Speaker 2:                    38:31                Right. And I've heard designers also complained that they don't make a lot of sales from spoonflower, but if people are using it in a different way and it's more to get found, that's an interesting point as well. But I correct me if I'm wrong, but when you upload a pattern or designed to spoonflower, they technically own it. Like you can't then go put it on creative market or another platform. Is that right? Speaker 3:                    38:54                I don't think so. I think you still own the rights to it, but if you put it up for sale, like anyone could print that fabric and do whatever they wanted with it or a paper or, you know, make, make their own stuff from it. So that kind of, you know, it was a little unsettling way because you have no control. Right. Right. But yeah, so there's definitely some flaws with it. But like, I have so many patterns that are just sitting in technique, like I also heard at the show that buyers want patterns that nobody's seen. They want to be the first, they want exclusive rights. So basically it's like you put it on Instagram, it's like you, what can you do with that pattern now? Which is so discouraging because it's also how you get found. So it's like this weird double digits. Speaker 2:                    39:44                So much work. I like what you did, but now do something just for us and you're like, okay, then I don't know if you're going to like it. Speaker 3:                    39:52                Exactly. So um, you know, so I've been struggling with that as well because like, yeah, you're trying to build an instagram following but you can't post stuff on instagram because they want exclusive rights. And so a lot of my old patterns and when I say old, I mean they've been out, people have seen them, so they're not exclusive. I had been putting on spoonflower because they're just sitting in my computer. So you know, no one I know for a fact, no one seeing them in my computer. So if I can at least try to get them out, maybe it will lead to more licensing deals. Was my thought process. Speaker 2:                    40:25                Yeah. That's a really interesting point. So is it kind of stuff that maybe you've used as like a piece of a design back in the day and you're like, well I could actually use this and put it out there and like people can see it or maybe it'll sell on spoonflower. Um, is that kind of your thought process? Speaker 3:                    40:42                Basically? Like, so these, I waited, I waited until actually, like last week I started putting on still fire. I wanted to see if I got anything from the show for these particular patterns that I showcased. If I didn't hear anything I was going to put him on spoonflower so I hadn't heard anything. Um, so now I'm starting to upload them and sell them on spoonflower just to know, try to build that following. Yeah. Have you tried, um, pattern bank, just out of curiosity? I haven't. I think you told me about that awhile ago and then I think I looked at it and then it was one of those things that I never followed up on. Speaker 2:                    41:20                Yeah, I mean it, it's hard to, to know which platform to beyond like their spoonflower, which is kind of more for fabric and then there's pattern bank and they both want exclusivity to your work. Not that they own it, but just that you're not selling it on another platform. But it's kind of hard to be like, well, I mean if you're not attracting their customers, I should be able to sell it somewhere else. No, Speaker 3:                    41:45                I actually wanted to sell my patterns on create like places like creative market though for some reason, like, especially like the vector files would make me so nervous. Like if I think if I designed something with the intent that like, okay, this is a vector file, they can do whatever they want. But um, yeah, I. because I do have small fears of being ripped off even though like I had like no followers, instagram, but it's still a legit, legitimate fear when you put artwork out there that someone's going to rip you off. Speaker 2:                    42:19                Oh, they definitely. Well, especially like when you do get big and you will. I mean it's gonna happen. Like do you listen to the honest designers podcast? No. Okay. Well it's really great and I'm. Lisa glands is one of the designers and she's huge. She's like made a really nice living on creative market and kind of inspired me, but she's talked about getting ripped off is a huge problem and I think it's just kind of inevitable. I hate to say that, but unless you want to actually get a lawyer and sue people like Orla Kiely did and she almost went bankrupt to doing that by the way. Um, and she got her point across, but like, I don't know if it's really worth it. Like you could spend all that energy creating new designs rather than like being in court Speaker 3:                    43:06                all the time. A rifle, paper company sued Walmart to Ooh know I need to follow up because that would be a huge. That'd be huge if like she won that for all artists really because it is so, such a prevalent problem in our industry. Speaker 2:                    43:21                It is, it's a huge problem. Yeah. And sometimes like, I dunno, I'm the first drug company that I worked for, they didn't even have designers for awhile so they would just buy things from vendors overseas. So they were working with Chinese vendors, Turkish vendors, Indian vendors, Egyptian vendors, Belgian vendors, like vendors from all over the world. And so if these guys, the vendors you were looking on pinterest or wherever and getting inspired by some someone like rifle paper, Co, they may totally have knocked them off and the sales guy who is just buying stuff wouldn't even necessarily know that because they're not an artist or designer. So it's, it's a problem everywhere. It's hard to control. It's hard to control. But um, anyway, well, Amanda, do you have any kind of final thoughts on Surtex or any final advice for aspiring surface designers? Speaker 3:                    44:16                So I'll tell a quick story from Surtex, um, it was kind of slow afternoon and this woman walked in front of my booth and she was looking at my booth and I could tell she was like, you know, like she's not admiring, but she was definitely like intrigued by is the right word. And I kept looking at her. I was, I know this woman wired, I know her from and it was Elizabeth Olsen and I was like, oh my God, when I realized I was like forever, blah, blah blah, and she can't even talk to me for like 10 minutes. And it was amazing and she was like, she told me, she's like, the biggest mistake new designers make is they give up too easy. And like, I don't even really remember all what we talked about, but that has really stuck with me because, um, I could definitely see how it would be like it'd be so easy to quit after my first cert tech show. Like I think get any art licensing deals. So it'd be like, well, I guess I'm not good at making patterns so I'm going to move on. But it did the exact opposite. Um, and so that would be my advice I guess is a. Speaker 2:                    45:16                I Love that advice. Did you know that um, when I was at genealogy I felt like that because Michael, I don't think it was intentional but he wanted me to just recruit artists instead of like actually work on anything creative. And so I kind of felt like what? Like do I suck, you know? Um, but yeah, I dunno, I got some freelance gigs on the side and that kind of helped boost my confidence. But it is, I mean when you're an artist you're putting your heart and soul out there and it is really easy to get your confidence crushed if you don't have some kind of reassurance. But yeah, I mean you just have to keep going, keep working and you will get better. Like the more you do it, like with anything, Speaker 3:                    45:54                it's just practice especially like on instagram or you know, if like you post something that you really love and it gets like Ken likes this is how we make money. So like, you know, it sounds superficial but like likes are important because that means like, oh, people would be interested in buying us, people would want this. So it is so easy to like Speaker 2:                    46:12                get so discouraged. And then you also think, well, I mean on a platform like instagram, you're like, well, did I just posted the wrong time of day? Is that why nobody is. No one's seeing it in the feed or you know what's happening? Speaker 3:                    46:29                Yeah. So it's been A. Yeah. So don't give up because like you said, like you get better as you go along. You learn things and prove your skills and. Speaker 2:                    46:41                But Hey guys, I'm definitely leave a comment down below and let us know if you have any further questions about Surtex or about becoming a surface pattern designer. Um, we will definitely try to answer those as best as possible. Um, and definitely subscribe to my channel like this video and click the little bell so that you get notified the next time I come out with a new video, you can find me on my website at LaurenLesley.com. Lesley's with an E-Y. And also look into description for a little Freebie pdf that I have for you guys. Amanda, will you tell everyone where they can find you on instagram and on your website? Speaker 3:                    47:23                Yes. So I am at Green Hound press on both my instagram and website. So greenhoundpress.com. And My instagram handle is @greenhoundpress. And so awesome your thing. Speaker 1:                    47:36                And I'm @LaurenLesleyStudio on Instagram. Lesley's with E-Y and um, we're also going to have a podcast version of this video so that if you want to kind of listen along to the next episode, you can subscribe on itunes or spotify and that way you can listen in your car. You don't necessarily have to meet. We also have a facebook group. And thank you guys so much for watching. Amanda, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. And thanks for sharing your experience. That's my girl. Have you have a good day? Yeah, you too.   .................................... Tags: .................................... Textile Design Textile Designer Surtex Surtex Portfolio Surtex 2019 Is Surtex Worth It in 2019? Surface Pattern Designer Surface Design Pattern Design Design Fabric Pattern Design Fabric Spoonflower Design Patterns Surface Pattern Portfolio Fabric Portfolio Textile Portfolio Textile Design Portfolio Textile Portfolio Examples Textile Portfolio Ideas Art Licensing Art Licensing Show Art Licensing Info Surface Pattern Design

Why is spread glass popular? What can you use instead of FR4? Listen and learn from industry veteran Chris Hunrath, who joins us from the San Jose Insulectro facility for a deep dive into what material sets are used in printed circuit board assembly and manufacturing. Get expert insights and learn about new materials on the market to help with your PCB design before going to fabrication and assembly.   Show Highlights: What is Insulectro? Operating for over 50 years, Insulectro provides materials for electronics, everything from laminates, prepregs, flex materials, copper foils, conductive inks, substrates, process chemistries, imaging materials and lamination materials. With 11 stocking locations, the newest in Toronto and 9 branches, Insulectro is a leader in providing electronic materials to industry. Prepregs - 175 different types to cut from in San Jose facility alone! Spread glass is becoming more popular - electrical and fabrication benefits because it is more electrically uniform. No open areas, the filaments are spread across (aka fanned out or mechanically spread) and this has signal benefits especially for differential pairs. Better from a drilling standpoint too. New materials are gaining traction - with low loss that laminate at normal temperatures Insulectro distributes for both Isola and DuPont Isola’s line-up of high-speed, low-loss material sets - Isola has a suite of laminates that are low loss, some of them with DKs close to the teflon range and they laminate at the normal temperatures which makes a composite build much simpler. Low-loss, low-Dk materials that can help with their signal integrity requirements I-Speed® - Low loss system, not as cheap as FR4 but its close and could be a good next step for people looking to upgrade material Having the right material set for a design is critical Challenges are more often in the fabrication than the design Copper is a really good moisture barrier, you have to bake the parts prior to assembly. I’ve seen people underestimate the baking and end up with scrap. Moisture is avoidable. Bonus Material: In Designer's After Hours, Chris Hunrath shares what kind of electric creatures lurk in La Jolla!!    Links and Resources: Chris Hunrath on Linkedin Insulectro DuPont Isola HDPug Research on High Frequency Flex Signal Integrity Journal Understanding Glass Fabric by Isola Group   Hi this is Judy Warner with the OnTrack podcast. Thanks again for joining us. Once again I have another amazing guest for us who is the go-to guy in PCB laminates. I am with Chris Hunrath today but before Chris and I get started I would like to please invite you to subscribe, or to favorite us on your RSS feed, or you can connect with me personally on LinkedIn. I share lots of stuff relative to engineers and PCB designers and on Altium I'm at @AltiumJudy and Altium is on Facebook Twitter and LinkedIn. So please give us a subscribe and a connection and we’d love to interact with you and hear more about what you'd like to hear on this podcast but I'm sure you're going to enjoy today's guest. Chris is the VP of technology at Insulectro and I'm gonna let Chris go ahead and tell you a little bit about Insulectro for those three people on the planet who might not know who Insulectro is. So, welcome Chris and tell us about Insulectro. Okay thanks. So yeah Insulectro has been around over 50 years. We supply materials to the circuit board industry - actually multiple industries - but mostly we've been focusing on electronic materials. Everything from laminates, prepregs, flex materials. copper foils, conductive inks. Different kinds of plastic substrates used with conductive inks, process chemistries, imaging materials, drilling materials, lamination materials. Also we have 11 stocking locations. We just opened one up in Toronto and we have nine branches. So I'm based in the San Jose branch in the Silicon Valley area so that's a little bit about Insulectro. Yeah nothing going on there in San Jose? Lots yeah, so since the San Jose facility is one of the four branches where we do fabrication on master sheets and master roles of prepreg and laminate we do cutting, tooling, vacuum packing, and will also do that on the lamination materials, the release films, and the press pads and things like that. So we do that in four branches… I'm going to ask you more about that later  because you just told me about that yesterday and I had no idea you guys did that. Actually I saw you more as a distribution channel. But before I ask you about that, why don't you give us a little bit of background on your history in the industry and how you came to this? I always say no and no one does this on purpose, unless you're an EE right? So yeah those printed circuit boards - those of us that got pulled into the industry ,, have been here a long time. So I started actually back in 1983, I was going to school for chemistry and one of the shops back east, actually in New Jersey, was looking for someone to work in plating on the night shift, and ,, the rest is history as they say. I got pulled into the business and the next thing I knew I was coming to California to to work with our sales team. So that's how I got started in this, and then I joined Insulectro in 2001 and it's been great being with this company. So many different materials we get to work with and so many different customers. I think you're a familiar name and face - being the VP of Technology but you also do trade shows and stuff. You present a lot and are really articulate explaining the technology of laminates because it's gotten a lot more complicated than it used to be back in 1983. I started in ‘84 by the way, and it used to just be, we'll get some FR4 some, prepreg and you're off to the races. Right yep, back then it was FR4 and polyimide. A little side note, actually the company I worked for made multi wire circuit boards so we also had an adhesive to embed the wires and that's a whole nother story for another time. Primarily it was FR4 and and polyimide and now there are so many different materials and then if you add the Flex materials on top. There's a lot to to work with, it's a lot of complexity but also a lot of opportunity. I mean electronics are going into everything and we're seeing that with our printed electronics products as well ,. A lot of interesting applications from wearables to medical to consumer electronics so that's been pretty cool to be a part of that as well. Yeah so tell us about what you're seeing on the front lines of current technology and marketing trends that are having an impact on laminate suppliers - ultimately since our audience here is mostly engineers and PCB designers - how that's sort of flowing down and what the impact is? Okay. Yeah so big question  sorry. Yeah that's okay, that's all right. It's become a bigger opportunity - a big part of our business - but if you look at  materials in general, everybody knows people are looking for higher speeds and high-speed digital and they're looking for lower loss in RF applications the Internet of Things also even data communications and those types of things; car electronics, radar, self-driving cars. All these things need low loss materials. One of our challenges - and again - it's an opportunity as a supplier to the industry; is having the right stuff available for customers and certainly the Bay Area. It's always been a quick turn market, but it's that the time window has shrunk and one of our challenges is supplying all these different materials to our customers, and of course with every laminate system, every resin system you have the different core thicknesses, the different copper weights and then you have the prepregs with different thicknesses, and resin contents. Add to that also spread glass. It’s becoming very popular I'm sure most of the people who watch this will be familiar with the spread glass systems. They have electrical and fabrication benefits but but again, it adds to the part numbers, the variety of materials we have to stock. So we we currently have here, just in San Jose, we have a hundred and seventy-five rolls of prepreg we cut from for customers. And ,, it always seems like our customers need something we don't have in stock. Yeah. It's the one thing they need for that application. But you know we try and up our game here and have the right things. And that comes from going to our customers and talking to the people in their design group, in their sales department and asking them; what do you see? You know, years ago we used to work on forecasts. Customers would have a very predictable usage on materials and they'd have forecasts out for some time. We would base our stock on that and we do forecasting today but it's not the same thing anymore. I mean customers may get an order and they have four days to turn it and they don't know what the build’s gonna be until the stackup’s done and and that creates those challenges. But you know, we try again, we try and improve what we stock and what we have here and get better and better at that. It's just never boring that's for sure. Yeah right, you gotta have a big crystal ball… Yeah just talk a little about spread glass. Yeah spread glass now that kind of puzzles me in context of high speed so I'm curious. Teach us about spread glass? So there's different kinds of glass, what they call standard E glass and then of course the low dielectric constant glass. I'll talk a little bit more about that in a few minutes. But the spread glass is basically that the the fibers, instead of having a crossover and a weave - like you would in a fabric for like clothing - the actual filaments and the weave are spread out, so you don't have open areas and crossover areas, or areas of higher density glass and that makes the system more electrically uniform. So when you have traces that go through the PCB they’re not either going through high resin content areas, or high glass content areas because they'll have different signal properties so you want to make it more uniform. Are they more in glass spindles - are you saying it's not woven? Well it is woven but instead of having a high concentration of glass with open areas of just pure resin, the filaments are spread across so you're filling in the open areas. Okay so they're kind of fanned out you're saying? Yes exactly there's different terminologies there’s mechanically spread, there's flat glass, but but basically what ends up happening is, the crossover areas where you would have what we call glass knuckles, they're thinner and of course, the open areas now have some glass. So again the system is more uniform it's a composite. So the composite’s more uniform and and like I said that has signal benefits, especially for differential pairs. If you had one trace and a diff pair running over mostly resin, and one running over mostly glass, they'll have different propagation velocities. So you'd have different electrical results, so the spring glass is better for that. It is better from a drilling standpoint, either laser or mechanical drilling. Because you're not going through high concentrations of glass where the crossovers are so there is a benefit there. There are some caveats though, to how it works with filling ground planes. Because the resin doesn't easily move through the glass fabric - you could have some problems filling, so we have to offer not just the spread version, we have to offer the standard versions as well because very often, designs - if they're strip line - you'll have a reference plane on either side of a signal and those reference planes could be heavy copper and they require a certain amount of fill. So you need the standard fabrics to use as well in a stack up. So you might have a mixture of those types of systems - so yeah it does add some complexity. So now we're not only doing hybrid materials now we're doing hybrid prepreg you're saying? Well there are different varieties I guess you have to do it that way anyways because if you're doing hybrid you're matching the materials to the bond ply that you're using anyways I suppose, but now you're adding in this kind of third layer almost. Right. And then we also have standard copper foil and then we have HVLP or VLP copper and low-profile coppers, so so yeah so it adds. And then of course, all the different copper weights - really everything from 5 micron through four or five/six ounces, so it's all over the place. But yeah actually going on the hybrid thing too we are seeing a lot of mixing the resin systems. In other words you would never mix B-stages in the same layer in other words you wouldn't have one kind of resin melt but you can mix cores so you could have one type of resin system as long as it's fully cured adjacent to another kind of resin system and we see that with RF, because very often what you do is, you have your low loss layer on the outside and then you would have your - whether it's high-speed digital or just DC - you would have that in the other layers and that system would be mixed and there are challenges there too even if you're not mixing the B-stages. Some materials require higher lamination temperatures and if you're not using a standard material that can withstand that, you would have issues or you would have to use a low loss material that has normal laminating  temperatures. And typically when we say normal laminating temperatures, we're talking in the 375 degrees Fahrenheit range. Whereas some of the more exotic PCB materials - the filled PTFE systems LCP FEP - they require much higher laminating temperatures more like 550 to 600 Fahrenheit. For a while I was at an RF - it really never took took flight - but I'm sure you remember not too many years ago, we got on the fusion bonding bandwagon. We thought that was going to solve all our problems but I remember being at a shop where I think we were running our lamp press at like 700 - 800 degrees Fahrenheit for 12 hours with some crazy profile. That's not very sustainable but it was homogenous DK and it had some great performance benefits but it really never took flight. So my gosh let's talk about hybrid a little bit more because I left the industry for a while to raise kids, and when I came back it was like Rumpelstiltskin waking up to all this high speed stuff and I was like wow! And what I did see was an awful lot of hybrids. So can you talk a little bit about what you think - certainly RF and microwave is an obvious one - but talk about what is driving the demand of high-speed digital RF and hybrid technology overall? Well it's - in very broad terms - it's about electronics, doing all kinds of different things from a design standpoint though it's about mixing, mixing proper material properties in composites that's what you do. You choose one material over another because of its properties and you separate those layers out to get what you need out of a design. So it's driven by cost, some of its also driven by how you would fabricate. In other words, if you had a material that was hard to laminate you could use that as a double-sided low loss layer and then bond the other layers. Conventionally that would run the DC or other signals you would have in the design. We do have some new materials, so one thing I didn't mention earlier is that we distribute for both Isola and DuPont. Okay. Isola does have a suite of laminates that are low loss, some of them even with DKs close to the Teflon range, and they laminate at normal temperatures. So making a composite build is a lot simpler. You don't have to do two separate laminations, unless you had buried micro vias. But you wouldn't do it because of the materials. You would do it because it's for the design but you can do it in one lamination cycle so that's one thing we're trying to bring to market and that's something that's been a growth item for us. Some of these new materials like Tera MT40 for example, the Astra MT77. Astra has the lower dielectric constant - a dielectric constant of just under three - that's for certain, for RF designs, whereas the I-Tera is for the mid-DK, what we call the 3.4 - 3.5 DK range but they're both low loss and they’re both laminated. Again at normal temperatures, so that seems to be getting some good traction. How do they stand up cost-wise against some of the traditional high speed laminate providers? Well as a resin system PTFE is expensive and then if you're reinforcing it with ceramic or fiberglass, that adds cost as well, so we actually stack up - no pun intended - pretty well with the PTFE-based product. It's not as well-known, many of the designers are familiar with the PTFE based laminates for RF applications so, they go with what they know very often, until they have a need and then they start looking at alternatives. And there's so many different, projects coming on with our customers, we're quite busy trying to keep that education process going. So I'm putting myself in a designer's shoes today and I was talking to Lee Ritchie yesterday and he was talking about how the speed curve has gone up near vertical in the last five years and I think you and I would both agree that we've seen that trend. I'm putting myself in a designer's shoes, so how do I get educated fast enough to keep up with all these moving pieces? Because like I said, when I left the industry and came back it was completely like a waterfall as far as onboarding all the different laminate manufacturers and then learning about matching bond, prepregs and bonding systems and cover weights. And then, let's just throw in, that we might have this on an aluminum carrier or whatever. How can we do a good job other than hosting a podcast so I get people educated? I think the IPC design councils are helpful for that. Some of our folks have presented, I presented, our other people presented. Certainly, if you're an OEM or a designer and you get boards from a board shop, reach out to the board shop and say, what are my options? The board shops have to live and breathe this stuff and certainly, folks like myself and folks at DuPont and Isola will also support the board shop in that effort. In fact that's becoming a bigger part of what I do. I travel with my customer to their customers and talk about their options and the pros and cons because you would think, in theory you would want the highest performance at the lowest cost but, it's not just single performance. It could be mechanical performance, it could be thermal performance, there are a lot of different attributes that you would need in the design and you don't know unless you talk, unless the designers were talking to the folks that have the materials background. You can't put all that together and I've seen projects where people have used the same old stuff and then they get unexpected results and so that's what we're trying to do. It's better for everybody if we hit it right the first time. So, that's what we do, we go in and we say, these are the options, this is when you use fired glass, this is when you use standard, this is when you go for the lowest loss possible, this is where you go for a better economy. We have a material called high speed that's very economical and it's pretty low loss, it's a 006 loss tangent and it's compact. It's not as cheap as FR4, but it's close to a lot of the other materials out there. So it's a nice scale of economy. Now it's not for every design but those who have been using FR4 for a long time and want to upgrade to a total low loss system, it might be a good next step. And that product has actually doing pretty well for us. The 4UIS has been growing pretty well and then the high-end products are growing pretty well. The products in between not so much, but, I think it's just a matter of what people need and the design. All right, that makes sense. Does Insulectro and/or DuPont and Isola put out resources online that designers can get a hold of? Yeah both companies, obviously all three of us actually, have websites with links to connect slash sheets, tech data sheets, and other things but I don't know if a website will ever be a good substitute for actually having a conversation with someone who's knowledgeable. Certainly that's a good place to start. The other thing too is sometimes a design will have some IPC slash sheet numbers on them, the specification sheets for different materials, and sometimes you're locked into that. So we've seen that with our customers, sometimes they're locked into a particular material set and it may not be the best. And again that goes back to having a conversation with the people involved. And sometimes they’re willing to change and sometimes not. Sometimes they have no choice. Certainly all old legacy military designs are examples where people are really stuck on very old old systems. And there's definitely a better mousetrap in those cases. But like I said, there's no substitute for having the conversation. So Insulectro for instance, we were just at IPC Apex and I'm sure Chris, you were doing presentations there. I assume that going to trade shows also, there would be opportunities to have face-to-face conversations? Yeah certainly, seek out - if you're buying boards - seek out your PCB shop. The folks at those trade shows, or sit in on some of the technical sessions, and then certainly, if Insulectro, Solar DuPont are there, great place to go get some information on materials. Great. Well I know I sound like I repeat myself often about this, but I've often said, and I used to blog on Microwave Journal to tell people, please go talk to your workshop, please go to your workshop because I think it kind of all ends and starts there and and because, like you said they have to deal with so many laminate and resin systems and all these things every day. A lot of times they could be helpful, it's just sometimes I think designers are so strapped for time. Sometimes they're doing the jobs of two people and so I'm always trying to help the designer get resources as best they can. Yeah and it's something we appreciate, and what we see happening too, is they'll pick up a data sheet and they look at differences there - sometimes there are very minor differences between resin contents and electrical performance. You don't know the dielectric constant of a loss and they'll pick the lowest on the datasheet, but that might not be the best for the fabrication and having the right material to make the board come out right, yield well, do well after assembly, do well in the field. You're not really giving up anything even if the loss is very minor, higher in loss, but yet the board performs well it's definitely a good trade. So that's part of the problem, sometimes some of the designers who are pressed for time will pick a particular material set. Yeah it might have the lowest numbers, but it may not be the best fabrication. If you can't build it, or if the board shop doesn't yield well, it doesn't do anybody any good. So I was just talking also to Kelly Dack, Chris. You would probably recognize his face. Anyways we were just talking about this and it's like what looks good on paper is... First thing, it isn’t always this linear process when it comes to design and fabricating. So, back to the hybrid designs. What would you say for someone that's designing hybrids, some of the the challenges are of those boards and some of the benefits? Obviously performance is one of the benefits. Yes performance and cost, because very often the very low loss materials, come at a premium, because of the resin systems - the cost of the resin systems - and the cost to make the materials and so on and so forth. So that is another benefit - it can be a challenge for the board shop and it really depends on the materials. The challenges are more often in fabrication than they are in the actual design part of it. Yeah, like I said before, it just varies so much, I mean one of the requirements usually for an RF design is to have a certain level of precision when it comes to forming the circuitry. When we say forming, it could be a plating and etching, it could be just print and etch, depending on the the technology used. And then you would laminate that into a standard FR4 system, and sometimes those materials aren't really compatible. So yeah, that goes back to being able to have materials that have the right CT properties, the right adhesion the right lamination properties. But you look at some of these high speed materials and sometimes they can be more fragile. I mean they might for instance - and correct me if I'm wrong here - this is second-hand knowledge here, but they might survive the fab process, and lamination cycles, or even multiple lamination cycles, because then you introduce buried and blind vias. And then there's multiple thermal excursions and then you take it to assembly and you've got through-hole and surface mount part and they have to go through another two thermal excursions. And so that it all adds up and it it's not obvious at the outset right? Yeah those are all good points, all things that have to be considered in the fabrication and use of the part and there's a lot there too. One of the things I'm seeing, is copper is a really good moisture barrier. So one of the things that we try and preach to our customers and their customers or the assemblers if it's a CM, is you have to bake the parts prior to assembly and you can't underestimate that. There was a really good paper put out around 2011 - 2012 at IPC that showed just how long it takes for the moisture to get around because if you have a strip line construction, or if you have a reference plane and RF design, that moisture has got to go around that copper plane. It can't go through it and I've seen people underestimate the baking and end up with with scrap. It's kind of a shame because if moisture is the only reason why you're doing the laminating and assembly it really is avoidable yeah sometimes it's a pain did it bake a board for two, four, six, sometimes 24 hours but, that's what it takes to yield well but it's it's still worth it and that’s something that comes up a lot. Well I know that I worked for a smaller art shop and we had the case where we were doing kind of pre-production quantities and the board was cooking along, no problem, and then one day it wasn't working. Guess what, it had rained for a week and we didn't have them in an airtight storage or whatever, so we had to completely look the way we were storing and make sure we were baking this, because in California, it doesn't rain that much and it wasn't  first and foremost on our brains and when it came down to that, it was like what? Yeah didn't see that one coming at all. I've seen that happen yeah, I've seen that it where customers or assemblers, they don't bake for years and think everything is great and they want to know what's changed and it's well material’s the same... Had a heavy winter... Yeah and it turns out it was something like that, it's always best practice to bake and it varies so much by design - ground planes are a problem. In fact there was a great study done recently with HD Paragon, I don't know if you if your listeners are familiar? Maybe not, but we’ll put that link below in the show notes. Because they're an amazing asset to our industry. So they did a great study on crosshatch ground planes on flex so there's some performance trade-offs to the crosshatch ground planes, but they do create a window. Moisture will get in more easily but it can get out more easily and when - as opposed to a solid plane - there is a frequency cut off where that is usable and one of the things the study looked at was diamond-shaped versus round openings in the ground plane. But I always like to put, or recommend putting, openings in the ground plane when you can afford it - just as a moisture egress. Hmm, that’s new to me, so neat but it completely makes sense right? if you're locking in moisture inside of the laminate because you're capping it off, you're trapping it right? Right, and a lot of the PCB processes are water based or aqueous based chemistries, even up to the surface finish. You know, Enog one of the most popular surface finishes, it sits in a hot bath for 30 minutes, actually two hot baths. The gold bath in the NIP and the nickel plating bath or high temperature what, 180 Fahrenheit - 190 Fahrenheit for 20 or 30 minutes in each bath. That's a big opportunity for the moisture uptake on the part, and if you can imagine, that's near when the part is finished. It usually gets routed and cleaned and electrical tests and a few other things. But then it goes out to the company that does the assembly some assemblers require the board shop to bake, which is okay if you put it in a moisture proof bag, but even that's not a guarantee because the workshop loses control over when it was opened and how long it stays in the atmosphere before it gets assembled and so on and so forth... -or just before it gets bagged. Yeah right. And it may already be present and you're just vacuum sealing a moisture-laden board. It’s so many moving pieces, I always say, I wish my dear friends that were printed circuit board designers or engineers that are designing boards now understood the complexity of board manufacturing because you and I've been talking this whole time about just the laminates this is not drilling, laminating buried and blind vias, filling vias. There's so many moving pieces and I think sometimes copper bond treatments? Yeah all of that and I think in this day and age, a bare board is a line item on your bomb. It's not like pulling a component off the shelf and so I think the closer board fabricators and engineers can get together the better for both actually. Because sometimes I think the board fabricators also get exasperated with designers, but the technology is being driven in a certain way. And they're gonna be the first ones to see it and can actually help enable the board manufacturers in many cases so it kind of goes both ways An experienced designer will know what the board shop needs and that's again - that comes from communication - things like minimum clearances, designed for manufacturability, those types of things, and in fact all the board fabricators I know are very good about working with their customers to try. And again it's in everyone's best interest to yield well and have a part that survives. Absolutely, and back to Kelly Dack, we had a long conversation - actually two people here at Altium, all of our AEs and FEs here - are required to take the CID course and so two guys here recently took it and for the first time I got to look through the workbook. Holy cow this thing is like this thick and a huge percentage of that is the DFM things. It's understanding, so to hopefully save time and money and headache on the end of the designer. Well Chris, I know we've only got started but we need to do this again clearly, because the other thing I want to talk with you about is flex, because flex is on the rise and I know you'll have a lot of insight there and I would love to ask you more about that. But before we go I always do this thing at the end of the podcast called ‘designers after hours’ because most people in our industry usually have some kind of interesting hobby. or a lot of us, even though we kind of act left brained, we have a pretty active right brain too actually, so sometimes we're creative or do something interesting. So do you have anything that you enjoy doing after hours, sort of unique? Yeah so actually I've been I've been diving, gosh since the late 70s… Diving? Oh scuba diving I thought you said dieting, okay! Yeah so actually I started back east when I was living in New Jersey I actually did some shore diving and some wreck diving and that was a lot of fun. Now in California, when I was living in Southern California, it was Catalina Island and the Channel Islands and so on and so forth. But here in northern Cali the best place to go is Monterey. I've done some abalone diving up in Mendocino, but that's free diving that's not scuba. But, in fact, I've taken my sister my niece there. There's divers also and we've gone down to Monterey and I've done that so that's one of things I like to do. It's something I don't get to do as often as I like of course. I know we're all so busy. Well speaking of free diving for abalone my mom and dad grew up here in San Diego - I grew up in in Orange County just about two hours north of here - but my mom, when she was a teenager used to free dive for abalone in La Jolla Cove. So about a year ago I moved down here and I'm itching to go get certified and do diving here because there's some really neat dive spots here. But we went to the area where my mom used to free dive and my daughter came up from snorkeling one day and pulled up two abalone shells, which is so rare. Yeah Well down here it's so picked over it's like there's divers out every weekend so it's really rare to find live abalone anymore. But anyway, she brought up a couple of shells. Interesting fact about La Jolla, you can find electric rays down there so Rays are capable of delivering an electric shock. Really? Yeah well check it out they're pretty cool - but don't touch them - yeah, they're pretty cool. Yes my interest in electronics and nature stops. Well thank you Chris, so much, this has been fascinating and I want to ask you 50 more questions but if you will say yes we'll do this again in a month or so and we'll talk about flex. Sounds great. Okay thanks so much Chris. Again this has been Judy Warner and Chris Hunrath with the OnTrack podcast. Thanks for joining today, we look forward to you tuning in again and until then, remember to always stay OnTrack.

This episode originally aired April 15, 2016. Proper fruit tree pruning Russ Metge from  (http://www.simplytreesut.blogspot.com/)  is here to share his journey as a business owner where he does’t just prune trees but also educates his clients on the importance of proper fruit tree pruning in Salt Lake City, UT. Russ Metge is a professional Horticulturist with a Bachelor of Science in Horticulture from Brigham Young U-Idaho. He is a husband and father of four. He owns and operates  www.simplytreesut.blogspot.com (http://www.simplytreesut.blogspot.com/) (https://www.facebook.com/simplytreesut/) I was listening to our episode (https://organicgardenerpodcast.com/?p=1462) and it’s funny cause you can hear my daughter playing in the background. It’s a great episodes (https://organicgardenerpodcast.com/?p=1462) since I first started. Tell us a little about yourself. So last time, I was father of 3 daughters expecting a fourth and now I’m a father of 4 daughters. probably the biggest change since last year. I own an operate a business in Salt Lake City where I pruned and care for people with fruit trees, mostly with a backyard orchard, a list of clients that I pruned for year after year after. I love my job! Not many people can say they love their job but I’m definitely one of them. Tell us about your first gardening experience? I don’t have a first experience. I’ve been around gardens since I was  little kid. I do remember as a child, spending a lot of time in trees, just climbing trees. I have 4 brothers, and a sister, too  both sides of me, one that’s al little bit older and brother a little bit younger, spent  a lot of time climbing trees, lots of mature apple trees as a kid, catch honey bees in jars… see how many fit in a jar… Really? Yeah, just doing the typical boy thing. Weren’t worried they’re gonna sting ya? I just heard people worrying about that the other day. I got out by our honey bees and never worry about getting stung. I got stung several times throughout the summer, running around bare foot, stepping on a dandelion in the grass that had a bee on it, getting stung by a honeybee, just part of growing up for me. We were careful, we would just turn the jar upside down and the  bees would fly upward. What’s interesting. I just remember when the trees were in bloom they were just humming with bees, every single blossom had a bee on it. We have a few apricots trees starting to bloom here in SLC, and I seldomly see a honeybee… it’s kind of sad how it’s changed over the years. Now adays with all the pesticides and everything it’s definitely affected the bee population. I have seen that and experienced it first hand! Maybe we can talk about what we can do to help the bees, you were saying that it’s raining is not a good time to prune. There’s a lot of pest control, even organic gardeners have to do, it’s just different. Good Cultural Practices for Fruit Tree Pruning Care The first and most important part of making sure your trees is making sure your tree is not susceptible to pests is to have good cultural practices: is make sure your tree has plenty of water gets plenty of sunlight remove the lawn from the base of the tree. make sure that your tree is as healthy as can be So it is make sure your tree has plenty of water, make sure your tree is planted in a location in your garden in a place where it gets plenty of sunlight, it’s important to make sure that you remove the lawn from the base of the tree. A lot of my customers plant their tree in the middle of the lawn, which is not a bad thing. Lawn mowers and string trimmers come and are damaging the bark and so there are a lot of things you can do to make sure that your tree is as healthy as can be. I actully have one customer of mine, I pruned for the very first time, that I pruned for last year and he... Support this podcast

A personal message to a friend who is struggling. On this extra long episode Russell talks to a friend from elementary school about how to go from being a technician and having a cap on his income to being a rainmaker and having an unlimited ceiling on his income. Here are some cool things you will hear on this episode: What the roles of the Entrepreneur, the technician, and the rainmakers are in the business hierarchy. Why getting really good at being a technician is not the way to have unlimited earning potential. How you can use your technician skills and apply them into being a rainmaker. So listen to Russell explain how to go from being technician to making it rain! ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to an insanely late night Marketing Secrets podcast. I am here, for those watching on tv, I’m in the car. Over there you can see Norah. It is late, insanely late. In one minute it will be midnight here and we’re about to take you guys on a very special Marketing Secrets Podcast. Alright, I hope you guys are doing amazing. Right now my little baby Norah and I are on a mission. It’s a secret mission to get her to hopefully fall asleep. We started weaning her off the bottle about a week ago before our family vacation because we thought it would be so much nicer to not have bottles on this trip. That was a good idea, huh Norah. But what we didn’t think about was the fact that she’s insane and now she won’t go to bed at all. She won’t take naps, since her naps happen when she finally passes on. We got back from the lake, we’re on a family vacation, we went to the lake and had a really good time, and then she wouldn’t fall asleep and we were driving back and forth and finally when I went to the store to buy something for dinner tonight. When we were coming back she passed out and she slept for 3 hours. She was so beat. Then she woke up and now she won’t go back to bed. So this is the second night in a row. Last night I was also out driving until about midnight, 12:30 she fell asleep last night. It’s 12:00 right now, hopefully in less than 30 minutes she will be asleep. But I am on vacation having a good time. If you listen to my last Marketing Secrets podcast it talked about how vacations can be really tough for entrepreneurs. I feel like we’re not moving, there’s no momentum. We’re stuck in a spot. That’s somewhere that I definitely feel. As much fun as vacation is it’s also hard for me, I got stuff to do, people to see, places to go. Actually, it’s interesting as I was packing the car up as I was about to leave, between hiking stuff in and out to the car and everything I was checking Facebook and it’s interesting. There was a friend who I don’t think I’ve seen him, I think the last time we talked was in elementary school. I remember 6th grade, it’s kind of a funny story. In 6th grade we were moving these big boxes and he had this big box and he dropped it. I don’t know why I remember this, but I remember him saying it was super embarrassing to drop this box of stuff and he was saying, “Someday this is going to be one of those things that people remember me by. Remember that day you dropped this huge box.” I remember thinking that was really interesting. And now, it’s 30 years later and I remember that day, it’s kind of funny. But anyway, I remember he was in junior high and high school with me but he was a basketball player and I was a wrestler so we didn’t really cross paths a lot. But I knew who he was and grew up in elementary school and I always had respect for him. When the book of faces came out, Zuckerberg, it was kind of fun because you can go back and remember high school, junior high, and elementary school friends. And people from wrestling and different aspects of your life and you start adding them on Facebook. So he was one of the names that popped up years ago, I added him and hadn’t thought much more about it. Every once in a while I saw posts from him, so I kind of knew what he was doing, but not a lot. He shifted his job or his business or career a couple of times and didn’t seem like he was having a lot of success. I remember it seems like last Christmas or something, he posted something really negative and I felt bad for him. But it’s also one of those things that when I first started my business and started learning about entrepreneurship and learning how to sell things and all this world became open to me, I remember at first I wanted to share with everybody. I tried to share with friends, family members, people at church, everyone I bumped into. I was so excited to tell this thing that I had learned. I was so excited I would share with every single person. It was so mind blowing to me that most people just “Oh, cool. Nice.” I’m like you don’t understand it’s not just nice. It was so frustrating to me. But it’s funny because that was, I always tried to change everybody and save them and help them because I thought that was what I was supposed to do. After a couple of years of that I realized that none of the people I tried to help ever did anything with it. It was really depressing me, so that’s when I shifted back and started doing the business for a long time.   I think I got into coaching because I wanted to share it, and it was cool when I started coaching. It was people who would come, people who it was their idea first and came to me to learn how to do it. Those people I could mold, help and change because they had the desire first. It’s because of that I’ve been very cautious the last decade of my life going out of my way to talk to people about this stuff unless they raised their hand first. So I saw him last December say something and I didn’t see my spot to say something, so I didn’t say anything. Then as I was leaving, I was going through Facebook, again we’re packing the cars and I’m sneaking out to do what you do with the phones. So I see this post, this long post and it was again a negative thing and he was talking about how much he was struggling and trying to make money and all these things, and I think he said that this last year he made $25,000, and that was what he made in an entire year. He was really struggling and trying to make things better for his family, life and wife and he couldn’t figure it out and was just frustrating and was just kind of venting. How you doing Norah? She’s so cute back there. I hope she falls asleep soon. Anyway, I felt for him. I was just like, do I say something or not. For whatever reason I decided to just reach out to him. I was like “Hey man, the problem..We haven’t talked in 20+ years, I don’t know if you know who I am. The problem is you’re not focusing on the right thing. I can help you but I don’t want to intrude, it’s not my business. I can help you, I know what’s wrong, it’s an easy fix. In the last year and a half, few years we’ve helped. I’ve been a coach to almost 200 people now to become a millionaire. Tens of thousands of people to make 100 thousand or more in year. I know the game, I know what it takes and what it doesn’t take.” I said something like that and my next post was, I wish I could read it right now. “I’m not trying to pitch you on some MLM. I honestly, if you want help I can help you because I know what’s wrong.” He was like, “Really? Yeah, I want to know.” So I told him a couple of things and I said, “If you do those things, I’ll record a podcast for you while I’m on my trip and kind of go into more detail.” So this last 3 days I keep thinking about that and I’m excited so that’s what I’m actually doing right now and I hope it benefits all of you guys. Because I think for most people who are stuck, it’s not something that unique to you, it’s not. A lot of times we think our situation’s unique, but it’s not. It’s a pattern that happens over and over again. The key to breaking patterns is recognizing it and realizing what the correct pattern is and replacing it. It’s not hard, it’s just hard because it’s the first time most people have gone through it personally. So that’s kind of the context. I just wanted to share this message, it’s really for him, I’m not going to go super specific, but I think it’ll be helpful for everybody. I know that typical people I talk to in this podcast are people who are entrepreneurs already and this is kind of I guess for someone who’s on that line between the job maybe and the entrepreneur. That line where it’s like, you’re not fully an entrepreneur running this way, but you’re struggling at the job thing and you’re in between. That’s what this podcast is for and I hope it kind of helps. With that said, I’m going to jump into this. So the first thing that I kind of told him in the message, the first thing is you’re focusing on the wrong thing. And he’s like, “I’ve been focusing on perfecting my craft.” And just kind of some perspective, the industry he’s going into is film. So he’s trying to do movies and videos and all that kind of stuff. So he’s like, “I’m focusing on getting better at my craft and I’m also doing a lot of networking.” So I go, “okay, yes. You are completely focusing on the wrong two things. You are focusing on things to help you get better at your thing, but you have to shift your focus to making money.” That’s a weird concept because it’s something that I remember the first time I had that epiphany. I need to learn how to make money. I was in school learning all this crap and I’m looking at this stuff and studying and I was like, I’m not actually learning how to make money. I still remember one of my biggest gripes with college is I took two semesters of accounting and two semesters of finance and they never once taught you how to do your own taxes, which is insane. School sucks. Just throwing that out there for those who are wondering my thoughts on the whole thing. But it’s crazy the fact that they don’t teach you that thing. And I realized I’m not learning how to make money here in school. And I started studying how to make money. It was interesting how different it was. It’s not what you’re learning in school. And now fast forward, I think it’s been, let’s see…it’ll be my 15th anniversary in a month from now and we got married with a year left in school. So 14 years I’ve been graduated from school. Looking back on it now from this sign. Sorry I’m waiting for a stop light, but there’s no stop light, there’s a stop sign. Little Norah’s still awake. Anyway, as I look at it now from this lens looking back, it’s interesting, a lot of times we want something. I remember growing up, you always hear your parents and people say you gotta go to school to get a good education so you can make good money. We all heard that. That’s a thing that parents say a lot. So we assume that those two things coincide. Good job, good education equals more money. But not necessarily. Now I look at again from my perspective, 14 years later, it’s interesting. I was thinking about this a lot over the last two or three days especially. If you want to look at the structure of how people make money, because there’s definitely, there’s you make money and there’s places you don’t. And most places you’re focusing on, like when he said he was focusing on getting better at his skills in networking. He’s focusing on something that’s good, but it’s not making money. So I’m going to start at the top. The top is a pure entrepreneur, so the top of a business, the hierarchy chart, so the top is the entrepreneur who starts the business. Typically, at least the entrepreneurs that I like to work with, the entrepreneurs are passionate about something, but their mostly passionate, not just about that thing, but getting that thing out to people. That’s what defines an entrepreneur. If any of you guys have read the Emyth, by Michael Gerber, he talks about what happens with a lot people is they think they’re entrepreneurs, and they get a job at the bakery shop and start baking cakes. They see the owner of a bakery shop and they’re like, “This guy is an idiot and I could do better than him.” And then what Michael Gerber says is that they have an entrepreneurial seizure. They think they’re smarter so they start their own bakery. The problem is that they’re not an actual entrepreneur, they’re a technician. They’re somebody who is in the business who is doing it. They’re making the bread, the cakes, the stuff but they look at the entrepreneur who they think is an idiot, so they have the entrepreneurial seizure and say they want be the entrepreneur and start their own business and say, “I can make bread better than anyone else. I can make cakes.” And they’re passionate about the thing and create the business and what happens to the business? It fails. It has a 90+% failure rate. Because it’s technicians, it’s people who think that the key is the thing. They think that the cake is what runs the business. It’s their passion about the cake, the creation of the cake, they don’t understand that that’s not the business. In the business the entrepreneur’s job is being passionate about getting the cake out to as many people as possible. That’s where the money’s at. That’s why most businesses fail. Because it’s not the entrepreneur running it, it’s someone who had an entrepreneurial seizure and is a technician and is trying to do that thing and thinks they should start a business because of it. My first question for everyone listening to this, are you the entrepreneur? The good news is we go deeper into this…….holy cow, a deer just crossed the path……There are ways to make money, not as an entrepreneur in a business. But it’s not where you probably think that they are. I’m just thinking for example, a doctor. Doctors make good money. How many times did you hear that you have to become a doctor to make good money, or a dentist to make good money. So those people make good money, but not there’s no limit to your income money. Because a doctor is a technician. They are just highly paid technician because a lot of school goes into it. But they’re still a technician. They’re not an entrepreneur, they have a definite cap on their income growth, always. So just depending on what technician you pick. Let’s say you’re going into a company to get a job, you’re capped by the earning potential of that role you take on. If you’re a doctor, a dentist, a baker, support person. You’re capped at whatever that thing is, which is fine, it’s just knowing that’s where you’re capped at. If you want no cap, the first spot you have to look at is entrepreneur. But to be an entrepreneur you have to understand that it’s not being passionate about the creation of the thing, it’s being passionate about the selling of the thing. There’s a big reason why I wrote the Expert Secrets book. It’s because typically Experts who are really passionate about their topic are also passionate about getting their topic out. By definition they are entrepreneur’s because they are trying to get the message out about that thing. They own the bakery, they make the cake, but they’re more excited aobut telling people about the cake. That’s what makes them successful about entrepreneurs. That’s why I love working with entrepreneurs. So there’s the top of the….let me flip the car around, I’m getting out to no man’s land now. So that’s the top of this pyramid scheme of business. I don’t know if you want to call it that. But the entrepreneurs are at the top. And that’s what most people look at. The entrepreneur is the person that makes all the money. But they’re all the person who risk everything. Entrepreneurship is a scary thing because you have no earning potential at the top, but you’re also the one with all the risk on your back. For a lot of people you can’t just go out and become an entrepreneur immediately, especially if you have a wife and kids. Because you have to have security. There’s this huge draw with people who have entrepreneurial desires, but they also have security needs between your family. So that’s a hard thing to just gamble and jump and say “I’m going to become an entrepreneur.” And I understand that. So a lot of times the entrepreneur is not the first place for people. I feel super blessed. I started my entrepreneurial journey about the time I met my wife and I was able to do a lot of things because she supported me, I was going to school and we didn’t have kids. We didn’t have this need for security at this point when I was getting started, which I’m so grateful for. I have so much respect for those that step into the entrepreneurial role when they have those things because it’s so much harder. So it’s always easier to start being an entrepreneur and risking everything when you don’t have a wife and kids and things. So that’s kind of one thing. That’s one spot. Again, there’s different places to make money in companies, so there’s the best spot, maybe not the best spot, but one spot. The entrepreneur at the top, that’s number one. Then underneath the entrepreneur inside the organization there’s gotta be technicians, doing the things, baking the cakes, cleaning the teeth, cutting people open, the technicians. This is what schooling is actually…the only reason school is actually good is because it creates technicians. If you want to be a doctor you have to go to school. If you want to be able to drill teeth, you gotta go to school. If you want to become a baker or a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, any profession. Another deer just ran by. I don’t want to hit a deer. That would be scary. But any profession, that’s what schooling is for. So when you’re going into school you are thinking about that. Any major you decide to go after, there’s a kind of associated salary range you’re going to fit into. Sometimes it’s big, like doctors make good money. But you’re always capped. A technician will always be capped, by definition of what they are. You just are. If you’re coming into a business and You’re a technician looking at this, you’re capped. Your salary is capped. So my friend who is doing video stuff, he’s looking for jobs in a business where he’s the technician. Again, he was saying in his post that he made $25,000 last year, because the need you are filling inside whatever company you are trying to plug into. That’s what they have budgeted for that. That’s what you’re able to make. You’re capped. You can’t go above that, unless you work more hours, more days. Sometimes you find another company that has a bigger budget. That’s another thing, and again there’s nothing wrong with a technician, it’s understanding that there’s a salary that’s set for that thing. There’s a budget set and that’s what happens. The goal of a business is not to make the technician rich. I had a finance teacher at Boise State, tell you what, most teachers I had at school were always like, “What’s the job of a business?” “To create jobs, stimulate the economy.” They always had this happy go lucky, tree hugging attitude about business. I had this one finance teacher that said the only goal of a business is to make the owners money. That’s it. If the entrepreneur, the owner is not making money, the board of directors, whoever is running it, if they’re not making money, the business dies. That’s the only purpose and only point of a business is to make the entrepreneur money. Everybody’s got to understand that. If you’re a technician there is no desire for anybody for you to make more money than what your set salary is. You’re going to find entrepreneurs, in my company I’m very compassionate towards people and I love what they do. I love creating things for people and having incentive plans, but for the most part, as a technician you’re in that range. You have to understand if you’re going to school, that’s the earning range you’re going to be in. Are you okay with that? If you are, cool. Go for it. That’s awesome. But don’t complain later when you come back and say I’m not making what I want. You picked a profession, you picked being a technician, you picked this piece and that’s all it’s worth. It doesn’t matter how much school you went to or how much time and effort  you put into it, that’s what that task is worth to the entrepreneur. You have to understand that, technicians are essential to a business, they need to be there. That’s what colleges, universities, programs were all created for, to create those people. Those people are important.  But again, that’s the pros and cons of that. Check it out guys, look at this. Pan over. She’s asleep. 12:19, it’s a good sign. This podcast might not be three hours long now that she’s asleep. Otherwise, it could have been a really long one. Alright, there you go. Entrepreneur, unlimited potential, tons of risk and the role, the reason why an entrepreneur’s successful is because they’re passionate about the selling of the thing. Getting the message out, not just the message. Not just passionate about making cakes, but passionate about getting the cakes in as many people’s mouths as possible because they’re obsessed with the end product. That’s the difference. There’s entrepreneurs. Number two level down in this pyramid is the technicians, who are the one’s doing the jobs to make this whole thing happen. Super essential but have huge earning caps, depending on what technician role you picked makes your earning cap. There’s one spot, and this is the spot that I want everybody to understand because this is the other spot inside of a company where you have no earning potential. Excuse me, I said it wrong. You have no earning ceiling, you have unlimited earning potential. Scratch that, that could have been really bad and messed up the whole thing. You have unlimited earning potential, literally the sky is the limit. That last piece, so we have entrepreneurs, we have technicians, and the third are the rain makers. They’re people that make it rain. They’re people that bring leads and money into the business. They’re the rain makers. Now entrepreneurs love rain makers, why? Because they make it rain. Do you guys understand that? That’s the secret sauce. Most technicians don’t understand that.  Because all they know is I went to school to learn this thing to do this task, so they do it and do it. But the person that gets rewarded the most, outside the entrepreneur of the company, are the rain makers. Typically in most, not most, but a lot of businesses that I own, that I’m involved with, the rain makers a lot of times are entrepreneurs who maybe if they would have started their entrepreneur journey ten years earlier, they would be the entrepreneur of the business. But for whatever reason they’re not. So they came, they can have, a lot of times we call them intrapreneurs. In their role in the company, they have the ability to grow and expand as much as they want. They’re rain makers. What do they do? They make it rain. They bring in customers and make money. They bring money into the company. So if you look at this from an outside perspective, if you selling this stuff in college terms. It’s marketing and sales. Marketing brings people in, sales takes their money. That’s kind of what it is. And it’s funny because, I don’t know what it was, even like most technicians, if you go to school and you tell someone you want to be a sales person, the viewpoint, or even marketing, I’m in marketing, or I’m in sales, the technicians are the ones who are always looking down on you. “oh, I’m a doctor.” They look down on the rain makers because they think it’s a sub….I don’t know. They think it’s not as good, not as dignified. What they don’t understand is that the rainmakers make the money. It is the most dignified, most important position in the entire company. Without the rain maker’s the technician has no job. Without someone bringing people into your business and then getting the money from those people, there’s nobody to be a technician to. You make as many cakes as you want, but if some dude didn’t bring those people into the store and take their money, they’re not going to buy a cake. It’s the most important role in the business, outside the entrepreneur who sets the initial risk to get it going. So even though the technicians talk down on us marketing and sales people, it happens to be the most important role in every single business. You can tell when businesses are stupid, when recessions come and they cut their marketing teams and they cut their sales teams. It’s insane to me. I had a chance in my life to live through one of the recessions, 2008. I had a bunch of friends who were in marketing jobs and they were making it rain for the company and the company started struggling so they cut the marketing. I’m like, you’re insane. Cut the technicians, they don’t do anything. Don’t cut the blood coming into your company. Marketing and sales is the blood, it is the rain. The rain makers are the key. So rain makers. They don’t have a ceiling, in most businesses now days. Especially if you become good at it and not a little bit good, but really good. You can come to a company and say, “I can bring in unlimited leads for you.” Guess what they will do? They will give you anything you want. All company need leads. The other thing they need, sales. They take those leads and turn them into cash, turn them into money. That’s how the entrepreneur gets paid, that’s how the technicians get paid. It’s by the rain makers. Bringing people in and taking their money. That’s it. We can try to be romantic about it, but that is it. You have to understand, if you want to be wealthy, and I’m not talking about making good money as a technician, because you can do that. You gotta go to school, that sucks. If you want to become wealthy, become rich, make a lot of money. You have to shift your focus from becoming good at being a technician, to understanding how to make it rain. If you can make it rain in a business, you are infinitely valuable. As a technician you are only valuable as that task is to the person, to the company. They know, they got a budget for it. There you go. So if you’re working for a company saying, I do video. Guess what? They have a budget for that. We pay video guys $3 an hour, $12 an hour, whatever that is, $20 an hour. For my friend, the company you are working for, they budget $25 grand so that’s all the money you are able to get. Because you’re a video person, you’re a commodity. That’s the other thing about technicians is they’re commodities. It’s funny, I was talking to my sister the other day here at our family vacation or whatever, and she teaches piano lessons. I love my sister, she’s honestly in my top 3 favorite people on planet earth. She’s teaches piano and she’s like, “I’m so busy, I can’t keep up with anything.” And I said, “you should double your prices.” And she’s like, “I can’t double my prices.” And I’m like, “Why not?” and she’s like, “If I double my prices I will lose half my people.” I’m like, “okay, well you lose half your people but you double the money, that means you get double the free time for the same amount of money.” And she’s like, “I can’t do that because that’s the set price for what people charge for piano lessons where I live. So if I raise my prices, they’ll just go to somebody else.” I’m like, “Because you’re a commodity. Guess how much people pay for marketing consulting advice?” She’s like, “I don’t know.” And I’m like, “Neither do I, but I don’t look what everybody else charges and charge the same thing, I charge the most I possibly can.” For example we had somebody contact our office and they wanted to do a one day consult with me and I was like, “I don’t have time for a one day consult.” And they’re like, “Well, how much would it cost?” and I told Brent to tell them it’s $100 grand and they can do 8 hours and they have to come to Boise and I’m going home at 5:00 to be with my kids. He kind of laughed because he knew they wouldn’t say yes to that. He went and pitched it to them and came back 5 minutes later. He’s like, “They said yes.” And I was like, “There you go.” Want to know why? Because I’m not a commodity. When you’re a video person you’re a commodity. When you are any kind of technician you are a commodity. When you’re a doctor, you’re still a commodity because guess why? Another doctor comes along and he’s better than you or less expensive than you, whatever. They can replace you with the other person because you are a commodity. The rain makers are not commodities. That’s what you have to understand. The rain makers are unique. They understand something that they can’t just learn in school. They know how to get, especially in school because there’s no school that I know of yet, that teaches a marketing program that is actually good. So there you go. So if you’re in school trying to become a rain maker, you should drop out today. If you want to be a technician stick to school. If you want to be a rain maker, it’s time to leave. If you’re in school, honestly if you’re trying to do a sport. That’s why I was in school. Do that. If you’re trying to find a beautiful spouse, school is agreat place to meet great looking women and probably good looking men, I have no idea. But that’s a great spot to be in school, but just til you find your spouse and then leave. It’s time to go. If you want to make it rain, it’s time to go. The rain makers are the ones that are not a commodity. There’s no cost associated, people don’t budget that out. Because they are like, I don’t know. If I came to a company and was like, “I’m going to build you guys a sales funnel and this funnel has potential to bring you unlimited leads for forever and make you unlimited amounts of money.” They’re like, “How much does that cost?” I’m like, “However much I want to charge you for it.” They can’t price shop. How are you going to price that? Russell Brunson charges 100 grand for a day. How do you price shop that? Go to somebody else? Ask Gary V. “What do you cost?” and he’ll give you his price but he’s going to teach way differently than I would. If you want what I got, I’m the only one that’s got it. You gotta pay me what I want to charge you for it. I’m not a commodity. If you’re a great sales person, you’re not a commodity. Great sales people are rare. If you’re an amazing sales person you can walk into any organization and say, “hand me your leads. I just want 20% of everything. I eat what I kill. I’m going to 20% of what I kill.” There’s no business on earth that I know of, that if you walked in and said “Look don’t pay me, just give me all your leads. I want 20% of what I kill.” Almost all of them will say yes to that. Because you’re a rain maker. You have no ceiling. Just kill a whole bunch of stuff and you get your cut. Same thing with the person who is making it rain, bringing the leads in the door. A lot of times you’re like, “Russell, I’m a video guy, I’m whatever. I don’t know how to make it rain. Right now I’m basically a technician. I’m plugged into this technician thing.” You gotta start studying, not how to become a technician, you’ve got to become good at your craft, I agree with that. You have to become obsessed with it, but you have to become good at understanding how to make money. The study of making money is the key. So how do I make money? It’s understanding if you’re a video person, doing video is a commodity. But if I can understand how to use video to bring in the leads, it changes things because now I’m not a commodity. I’ve got a friend who charges 100,000 to make you a video, plus 10% of any money that video ever makes you. Technically he’s no better than anybody else. In fact, some would argue he’s a lot worse at video than most people, but he knows how to take that video and have it turned into cash and bring in customers. He knows how to use it to make it rain. So for those of you guys who are in my world, I’ve got some tools to help you learn how to take whatever technicians skills you have and learn how to make it rain. So I told my friend, I gave him some advice, “I’ll record this podcast but you have to do some things for me first. First thing you need to do is go back to this podcast, Marketing In Your Car, first hundred episodes there’s a cheesy jingle. Next 200 episodes there’s a less cheesy jingle, still cheesy. And then recently we transformed it into the Marketing Secrets podcast, which I really like the name and the new jingle is freaking amazing.” Don’t you guys agree? So we’ve got that. I said, “Go and listen to every episode, start at episode one and go through all of them. What’s going to happen is you’re going to immerse yourself in how to become a rain maker. You’ll learn a bunch of random crap and none of it’s going to tie together, but it’s going to get your mind immersed in this mindset. And if you don’t like me or my voice, you can go find someone else. But find someone who is obsessed with marketing and sales. And he ranks the stuff that people pay unlimited money for and start immersing yourself. Listening to it all day every single day so your mind is just wrapped into the concepts. With geeking out and going deep with my podcast, your mind is going to get into it but you’re not going to have a blueprint, but you’re going to have all these thoughts going through your head  all over the place. It won’t be a path, but it will be immersion. Immersion is the key.” Tony Robins talks about this a lot and I’m a big believer in pretty much everything tony says because he’s a giant and he’s got stage presence like nobody else and he’s amazing and a billion other reasons. Tony’s the man. He taught me about immersion. If you want to learn something, don’t dabble. There’s dabblers out there all over the place, who dabble. My guess is things in your life that you struggle with are things you have dabbled in and things you excel at are things you immersed yourself in. That’s just how it works. If you want to learn how to make it rain, you’ve got to immerse yourself in the concepts of people who are making it rain. So number two what I told my friend. I said, “There’s two books you’ve got to read.” And I shipped them out to him. First book is Expert Secrets. In this business there’s two sides of the business, there’s the art and the science. The art really is the selling and messaging and positioning, all those kind of things. Storytelling and that kind of thing, that’s the art. So I said, “Read the Expert Secrets book first because that’s the art. Second read the DotCom Secrets book, because that’s the science. It’s the art and the science to making it rain.” When you read both those books, there’s two different perspectives that you’ll feel in the books. One is very much like the structure, the science, the Dotcom Secrets, the science to how the game is played and the Expert Secrets is the art. A lot of people think they have to master all of this, and you don’t. Especially if you are someone who would love to be an entrepreneur, but for whatever reason you’re not able to. You want to be an intrapreneur in a company. Go into a company and be an intrapreneur for a company. Look at that and say, “I don’t need to know all this stuff. But I gotta understand it all. I need to understand the art and science and figure out where my skill set fits into that.” So my friend that’s doing video stuff, you have a skill set that in the right hands is worth a lot of money. In the wrong hands its worth 25 grand a year. If you find a company that’s growing, the right company, the right person to plug into and come and say, “I want to make it rain for you.” Brandon Fischer who started doing video stuff for us 2 ½, 3 years ago. He came in and I met him and my brother does video stuff for me, we didn’t really need another video person, but he came to me and was like, “Hey, I want to learn what you’re doing. I’ll do video stuff for free for you.” I was like, alright and he started doing it for free. He did some amazing stuff and started capturing stories for me. He captured Liz Benney’s story of her telling her experience with Inner Circle. Basically he didn’t come to me as a video guy, he came to me as, “I can capture the story that will make your company look a million times better to make it rain.” So he captured the story of Liz Benney, so we took that video and put it on a website, started driving traffic to it. That Liz Benney video, I couldn’t track it today, but that video has probably made me at least 2 million dollars if not more. That video helped me make it rain. That video asset to me wasn’t worth 25 k a year, it was worth a heck of a lot more. Because it helped me make customers, convert those customers, and get money from those customers. But he didn’t come to me as “I’m going to be a video guy.” He came to me like, “Let me serve you first.” The best thing about rain makers, if you’re good at what you do, which is why it’s important to be really good at your craft. That is important. Become obsessed, literally become so obsessed with what you do you become the best in the world at it. Or at least the best that person’s ever met. Become obsessed with it. That’s important. The second thing is figuring out how to use your skill to make it rain and becoming obsessed with that. That’s the missing key. Because then you become an intrapraneur, you come into a company….Don’t come in and try to negotiate a huge fee, because number one if you negotiate a huge fee, the first thing you’re going to do is lock yourself in as a technician. Technicians get paid a salary. As soon as you negotiate you lock yourself in and then you’re there. If you come in the other way and say, “I’m going to work for free and make it rain and then I just want a piece of what I bring to you.” If you bring it that way and come in and help make it rain, it’s completely different. Jay Abraham, one of the great marketing, strategic minds of all time, his whole thing is he would come to a company and say, “I’m going to come and work for free I just want 20% of the increase.” He’d come to a company and add 40, 50, 60, 100 million dollars to a company and just took 20% of the increase. That’s what rain makers do. That’s what sales people do. You are creating opportunity. You’re creating money for them and taking a percentage of what you create. That’s the key you guys. That’s the key how to be an entrepreneur inside of an organization and have no limit. Guess who they don’t fire in a company? The person who makes it rain. If you go into a company and you make it rain, that’s it. You write your own paycheck from that point forward. So how do you do that? Number one, immerse yourself in this stuff, in the marketing and sales. Immerse yourself. I would recommend doing it with the podcast. Because I think I’m obsessed with podcasts. It’s the best way to have it ring through your mind all the time. Start at episode one of my podcast, click play and go until you’re done. A lot of you guys, start over. This is not for my own ego, partially for my own ego, but mostly for you guys. And again, if for some reason I talk to fast or I’m annoying or whatever, I don’t care. Plug into somebody, plug into Grant Cardone, Gary Vaynerchuk, or plug into John Lee Dumas, I don’t care. Whoever you resonate with, plug in and go. Don’t unplug. Every single day, all of your free time, you’re driving, you’re walking, your bathroom breaks, be listening to podcasts constantly. That’s going to give you the immersion, because immersion is the only way for you to get the connections. This connects to this; you’re going to start seeing the big picture. Number two is you need a strategy and a blueprint. For each of you guys, there’s two books that I’ve written. I’ve put my heart and my soul. I’ve read thousands of books, sold hundreds of millions of dollars worth of stuff, to be able to figure out what actually works and put it into a book you could read in a day. So read the Expert Secrets book, number one, and then read the Dotcom Secrets book. Expert Secrets will teach you the art, Dotcom Secrets will teach you the science. Then you’ve got to look at what your skill set is and where does that plug into the art and science. Again, you don’t have to do everything, but figure out what you are good at. What I would recommend doing, this is kind of the next step, is those who have gone through my certified partner program, we certify people to build sales funnels, the ones that are the most successful, the ones that bit, realize they’re not the best at everything. Henry Kaminski, one of my buddies was in the inner circle for last year, he talked about when he first came in, he was a graphic designer. He’s like, he didn’t say it this way, but similar. He understood the art and the science. “I’m really good at graphic design but I don’t know this other stuff.” So he started studying and learning it. He realized there’s pieces to this. If you read Dotcom Secrets and Expert Secrets you will realize there’s pieces and you become an expert in all of it or what he said he did, “I built a voltron team.” Some of you guys, if you’re and you don’t know who Voltron is you can go Google it. Or you might remember Power Rangers, might be a better one for you guys. There are different versions. But Voltron is basically, there were these five, same with Power Rangers, same story, probably the same everything. But there’s five people who had their own super power, they went out there and they were really good. But there was a big bad guy who would always come and they couldn’t defeat him individually. They had to group together and become Voltron and all five pieces came together and they’d fight and they could win. So Henry said, “I realized I was a good designer, but I’m bad at strategy so I had to find this strategy person to partner with.” So he partnered with his strategy guy, Dave Arsonal. Then he’s like, “I need someone good at selling.” So he partnered with a salesman. He partnered with three or four people and built this Voltron team and he went out there and in less than a year he made a million dollars with his little company. Because he understood, “We’re rainmakers and I’m good at this piece but I need a couple of people together and we can make it rain. We need someone who can drive traffic, someone to do sales, and I’ll do the art.” He did that. So for you guys and for my friend, after you understand the art and science, you’ve immersed yourselves, you’re learning all these kind of things, you buy the expert Secrets and Dotcom Secrets book, read both of those and understand the art and science of how to make it rain. Now you’re looking back to say, “How do I fit in this? What am I passionate about? Am I good at the story telling part, am I good at funnels?” Figure out those pieces and then you can go to companies and look at that and say, “I’m really good at this piece. I can bring this thing to you.” Or find a partner, find people and come in and say, “We can do this thing.” A good example of this you guys, I don’t normally share these kind of numbers, but I wanted to just kind of help. Some of you guys have seen the Harmon Brother’s videos, some of you guys know that we are about to launch our Harmon Brother’s video, which I’m really excited for. They did Squatty Potty, Poo-Pourri, Chatbooks, Fiber Fix, a whole bunch of great videos. They make these videos and they’re good, really good. They go viral and they’re amazing. I wanted to hire them to do a video for me so I messaged them two days after they’d actually messaged me, which is kind of funnel. They had this funnel, the Fiber Fix funnel, they said the video went viral but the funnel isn’t converting and they wanted my help.  I was like, “Funny. I just wanted to email you to see if you’d do a video for us.” We got on the phone and tried to talk through it and both of us are rain makers. Our videos make it rain, we know what they’re worth. I was like, “How much does it cost to create a video?” I was thinking maybe $50, 60 grand or whatever. With a very straight face he was like, “We charge $500 thousand up front plus 20% of ads spent.” I was like, “What?!” and he looks at me straight, he didn’t say this in so many words but, in the words of this episode he said, “We know how to make it rain, so that’s what we’re worth and that’s what we charge.” A few months later I wrote them a check and now they’re going to make it rain for us. Same thing, they came to me with the Fiber Fix funnel, “We want you to fix this funnel, how much does it cost?” I’m like, “you can hire someone fix the funnel it will be 10 grand, but for me it will be a quarter of a million bucks.” And he’s like, “Whoa, why are you so expensive?” and I was like, “Because I know how to make it rain.” So then they did their deal, because it worked. As I went with the Harmon Brothers and we did the video, it’s been the most amazing experience, I can’t wait to show you the whole behind the scenes video. There’s some on Funnel Hacker TV, you see bits here and there. But it’s amazing, it’s not 2 brothers who do this whole thing. It’s these guys who started a business and then their process is really cool. When we hired them, basically they said, “We’re going to do a writing retreat.” And they found three amzing writers to write three different scripts for us. So we go to this cabin and they have three writers come and read their script. Each script was insanely amazing, but three different comedic scripts. And these guys again, are writers that they hired, they’re sketch comedy writers. They each wrote three and came back and said, “Which of the three do you like the best?” we picked what we liked the best and then all three guys took those, in this cabin, we went back and all three of them went and took the best script and they took all the jokes, the best jokes, wrote a new script and came back and showed it to us again. It was even more funny. We went back and forth for two days until we had the script. Then after we had the script, they went and said, “Okay, for this script to happen we have to have props.” So they hired someone to build stages, and they needed videos and hired video people. They hired all these people to make this amazing thing. Last weekend we went and filmed it and hopefully we’re about a little ways away from launching it. Again, with them, it wasn’t just them. They had built a Voltron team of people that could go and execute to make it rain. You have to start understanding that. Come back to where we started, the hierarchy of business. There’s the entrepreneur. The entrepreneur is there and they are obsessed with getting the message out about their thing. Not about the thing, about getting the thing into other people’s hands. That’s why I love entrepreneurs, because they’re tied into this whole marketing thing. Good entrepreneurs are obsessed with the marketing and selling of the thing. They are the ultimate rain maker. Number two is the technician who do the thing, which are essential to the business, but again you’ve got a cap, you’re a commodity. Understand that there’s a cap and you’re a commodity, but you’re in there. You’re going to have a good, typically secure financial thing, all those kind of things. You get security but you’re not going to have unlimited income. Then you’ve got the rain makers. So for you guys looking at understanding what a rain maker does and what it is and how the process works. Figuring out how to take your skill, your super power and uncommoditize yourself and make you unique, make yourself rare. Make it so people pay you half a million dollars if you make them a 3 minute video. Is that crazy? Someone pays me a quarter of a million bucks right now to make them a funnel. For me, not that it takes me that long, I just know what order the pages need to go and what message in each page. I know how to make it rain. I’ve been obsessed with this thing for over a decade. For you guys, it’s time to become obsessed. Become obsessed in your own company. And if you’re the entrepreneur in your company listening to this, become obsessed. You’ve got to be the lead rain maker. Find the technicians, plug in the right people, and like I always say, find A players, not B players. A players are 32 times more effective than B players. Find A player technicians and pay them well. Because you don’t want to go find other technicians. Plug in the best technicians you can find, then go find rain makers. And if you try to cap rain makers, they will leave you. Understand that. You, as an entrepreneur, find rain makers and give them the ability to have unlimited ceilings in their income. Because if they do that, again, a rain maker is just an entrepreneur who for whatever reason, life circumstances isn’t able to go out on their own to do it, which is totally cool. There’s nothing wrong with that. If it weren’t for all the intrapreneurs in our business, our company is 99.9% intrapreneurs. If it was not for my intrapreneurs we would not be where we are today. I try to create our businesses in a way where people can grow and have unlimited earning potential. That’s the key. For you guys listening who, that’s you and you’re stuck in the technician role or you want more, or you’re in this thing where you want to be an entrepreneur but you can’t or whatever. This is where to focus on. Learning how to make it rain and then building a team around you. Finding people, other pieces and networking, not so much finding jobs, networking to find people to help you to be able to make it rain. As soon as you have a team, as soon as you personally or your team can do that, you can go to any business on planet earth and write your own paycheck.  Then it comes down to picking the right businesses, and that’s a whole other lecture for a whole other day. Because I’ve seen some funnel consultants who go and they get paid ten thousand dollars to build a funnel, other guys get a hundred grand, the only difference is who they are pitching to. It’s interesting, I’m privy to share the details, but the Harmon Brother campaigns, if you look at the Purple Mattress, its $1000 mattress. Because every sales makes $1000, it’s been one of their most successful campaigns. Chatbooks has been amazing, probably the most viral video they’ve had, but each sale doesn’t bring in, the value of each customer is a lot less, so it’s harder to continue to make that one rain. Same thing with all you guys, if the customer or the client that you’re working for, if they’re average customer value is $30, if you’re working for a restaurant, making $30 it’s not good. But if you’re working for a customer where each customer is worth 25 thousand dollars, it’s a lot easier to justify what you want to charge people. Stuff like that. Alright, well it’s late. It’s almost 1:00. I gotta get my 6 hours to go to the water park. I’m going to end today’s podcast, but I hope that helps you look at how business works and understanding that for you to be successful and make money, you have to understand how to make money. You gotta learn how to make money. Don’t just learn your skill because if you do that you’ll become a technician, which is fine if that’s where you’re happy. But if you really want financial freedom and wealth and no limits and no ceiling, you want to be able to grow, it comes down to studying money and understanding how it works and understanding the marketing and the sales, getting people in the door and getting their money from them. It’s the most valuable part of any business. I don’t care what the hoity-toity doctors tell you. I don’t care what all the people in school and colleges, it’s the most dignified, most important role in business. If it wasn’t for it, business would stop. The economy would stop. So it’s figuring out how to plug in your skill set into that piece of business. Because that’s where the money’s made. When you’re part of people making the money it gives you the ability to have percentage of that. So I hope that helps. So for my friend who’s listening and everyone else listening, once again, immersion. Get the blueprint. Figure out what your unique abilities and talents can plug into that blueprint to make it rain for a company. When you do that, you got what you need and a whole bunch more. So I hope that helps you guys. I hope that helps my buddy. I won’t say your name because, you know. I appreciate you and hope to hang out with you someday again. Everybody else, have a good night, talk to you guys soon. Bye everybody.

We delve into the world of film and find the forgotten gems or otherwise unappreciated masterpieces of film and talk about them. This episode we discuss one of the best films of all time "The Shaggy Dog." (2006) which features the perfectly cast Tim Allen, Robert Downey Jr., Kristin Davis, Jane Curtin, Danny Glover? In this commentary we talk about the interesting questions that are brought from watching this brilliant film and we hope that we answer some of those questions. This episode features Ryan Sliwinski, Bartek Kasprzyszak and Kate Dyer! PRESS PLAY AT 7:00! A remake of a classic better than a classic? Really? Yeah it's true and why is it better well you better listen to find out.This episode features poorer audio quality due to forgetting to turn the mic on but hey we still are willing to talk about this piece of art no matter the quality.Thanks very much, remember to like the facebook page, follow on iTunes and talk to us, please don't forget to be kind to each other. 

Today’s expression and dialog: puts a smile on my face   What puts a smile on your face? My students!         Really? Yeah! They learn so much and they use it! They’re great!   Let's see...fresh coffee. Flowers. Watching rabbits in the park. Watching my cats play. Biting into a freshly baked chocolate chip cookie. Finishing house chores. Making my super energy drink. Finishing all of my work for the day. Reading your comments. Hearing my students say "I got it!" All of those things have ONE THING IN COMMON... They ALL put a smile on my face.^^ What puts a smile on your face? Not only diamond rings and funny comedians! What about the small things? Think about it and share! Have a SUPER week and I hope you smile a lot^^     Coach Shane     Please subscribe on iTunes and get this podcast EVERY DAY! Support Coach Shane by giving $1 a month! Our sponsors: Click on JOIN CLASSES and get ALL the information! (Get a free AUDIO BOOK!) Our YouTube channel:     Today's Daily Easy English Expression PODCAST is UP and READY for YOU!! #LearnEnglish #ESL #Twinglish

Today’s expression and dialog: knock yourself out Ooh! Cookies. Knock yourself out! Really? Yeah! I’ve got more in the oven.     Please subscribe on iTunes and get this podcast EVERY DAY! Support Coach Shane by giving $1 a month! Our sponsors: Click on JOIN CLASSES and get ALL the information! (Get a free AUDIO BOOK!) Our YouTube channel:  

Golden Isles Fishing Podcast Episode 8: Sushi Fastballs, Peeled Prawns, and Warm Up Already! Sushi fastballs? Really? Yeah… it’s just a way that I have described this phenomenon to my customers in the past and it seemed to resonate with them and help improve their angling skills so I figured I would share it in this podcast. But yeah, it’s ... Read More The post GIFP: Ep. 8 | Sea Bass | Sight Fishing | Redfish Tips | Inshore Chumming appeared first on The Georgia Fishing Company.

Back to back brother episodes? Really? Yeah, really. That's how we roll at MDRT. Evan and Adam Nix are two of the finest filmmakers around. They make The Grawlix web series with your boy ACH et al, and they filmed the pilot for Those Who Can't. So if you're looking for some kick-ass guerilla filmmakers in the muthaheffin Denver mist who moonlight as a fake German electro band, look no further.

The boys are in Steeltown for the first time this season. Really? Yeah, really.