Podcasts about which i'm

Zach welcomes Dr. Janice Gassam, Ph.D. back to the podcast to talk about the concept of centering Black experiences. She and Zach discuss the tremendous impact of enduring continuous emotional labor and implore any and all aspiring allies and/or white executives to compensate Black people when they're asked to speak about their feelings, and Dr. Gassam also shares a bit about both her podcast and new book, both titled "Dirty Diversity" - check the show notes if you'd like to find out more!Learn more about (and buy!) Dr. Gassam's book "Dirty Diversity" on Amazon or Audible.Interested in the Dirty Diversity podcast? Check it out on her website.Read Dr. Gassam's "Dear Companies: Your BLM Posts Are Cute But We Want To See Policy Change" piece on Forbes.Connect with Dr. Gassam on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.Visit our website.TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and look, you know, you know what we do. We have real talk in a corporate world, and we do that by centering marginalized voices so that we can actually amplify and center marginalized experiences at work, right? And so we're having these conversations with thought leaders, with educators, with writers, with executives, with entrepreneurs and social influencers and activists and elected officials - anybody, really - all around, again, centering and amplifying the most marginalized voices in the workplace, and so today we have a returning guest - frankly, a friend of the show, you know what I mean? Dr. Janice Gassam. Dr. Janice Gassam is an educator, public speaker, a consultant, and a senior contributor with Forbes. Dr. Gassam, how's it going?Dr. Gassam: It is going well. Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate you amplifying my voice and consistently amplifying my work. I love that we, like, you know, have built this support system, and I think that's so important, that we are, as quote-unquote marginalized people, we're supporting each other.Zach: Well, I mean, it's not--you make it very easy. You do great work, and your work really is what needs to be centered and focused on right now. I'm really curious, you know, as white folks are apparently learning what racism is for the first time, how have your--what does it look like in your field? Like, are you getting more requests right now? I know last time you were on the podcast we talked about the fact that a lot of folks would ask you not to talk about race. You know, what does it look like when you have clients reach out to you with requests?Dr. Gassam: Wow, that's a great question, and things have blown up and have exploded as far as I've been getting so many requests for racial equity workshops, and that's--you know, I'm partial to those workshops. Those are my favorite, but it's just so ironic because even, you know, less than a year or so ago I would have these discovery calls with clients, you know, who want me to come in and do a workshop or a training, and they have specifically said, "Do not talk about white privilege. Do not talk about race." They preferred me talking about the safe subjects like emotional intelligence, which I'm fine with talking about that, but I think that it's limiting in that if you're not willing to engage in the conversation nothing is going to change. So I'm very--I'm cautiously optimistic, and I hope that the momentum is still here after the summer is over. And I try to impress upon these leaders that, like, one workshop is not gonna change anything. Whether it's me or somebody else, you need to be bringing people in to facilitate to these continuous conversations. I think that that is really important, and people seem like they're starting to get it, so, you know, I'm just excited about this moment in time right now. I've never been busy like this before since my career started. So I think it's an exciting moment, and I'm trying to take advantage of it.Zach: And so let's talk about that. So, like, you know, again, in the past people would say, "Don't talk about white privilege, don't talk about Black experiences, Black female experiences. Talk about gender, but don't intersect that at all with ethnicity (or) race." What does it look like now when people hit you up? Like, what are they actually saying?Dr. Gassam: So, you know, I get emails primarily, and they're like, "Hey, my company wants to--" And what's funny, Zach, is that, like, there's such a sense of urgency now, you know? These same companies that--I'm gonna be [?]. I'm gonna keep it 100,000% real. Some of the same companies that didn't have money once COVID hit magically found the budget. You know, I had things lined up. And I get it, you know? They came back to me in March and April and said, "We don't have the budget." Cool. So now in June y'all found the budget, I guess. You know? Which I'm like, "Obviously you're realizing diversity, equity and inclusion is a priority." So it's usually--you know, the requests come in the form of an email. I appreciate that people have really been sharing my content on social media. So people often find me either through LinkedIn or through Instagram and they say, "Hey, I saw you talk about race, and we need this at our company. So when can you find a time to speak? How much do you charge for a workshop? What do your workshops entail?" So that's pretty much what it seems like, but with some of these requests it seems like there's such a sense of urgency, and that worries me a little bit because I think that it's not, like, a quick Band-Aid. You know, I'm happy to do the workshop. I've been doing these workshops. I've done many workshops, and I already know the structure and everything. However, I think that you have to have long-term objectives, and I don't know if a lot of these organizations have long-term objectives. It just seems like they want to do something so it looks like they're not doing nothing.Zach: Right, right. What is concerning about that, anxiety-inducing for me transparently, right, is it's very reactionary, and it reminds me of Martin Luther King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail. Like, that portion where he talks about the white moderate and, like, how they're more concerned about false peace [than] with an absence of justice. And so even now in this moment I'm like, "Okay, are y'all just trying to mobilize something really quick just to say that y'all did something so that you don't have uprisings within your companies, or are you really looking to create equitable and inclusive working environments, not just for the next couple of days but for, like, the foreseeable future as your company moves forward in this new normal?" Like, that to me continues to be, like, my ongoing question. I mean, I've had people reach out talking about, "Can you come in and do some unconscious bias?" No.Dr. Gassam: And that is the worst. I don't think unconscious bias trainings are trash by any means. I think that most companies are not doing them effectively. That's, like, a nice way to say it, 'cause I think unconscious bias training doesn't do a lot. "Hey, I go through this training and I find out I have a bias against Black people." You might take an [?] association test and see, "Hey, I have a bias toward or against women, so what do I do now?" It's like, "Cool, now I recognize my biases," but if there's systems in the organization that allow bias to persist, it doesn't matter that now I know how to not say micro-aggressive statements, because there's, like, bias entrenched and baked into the fabric of the company. Like, in the way that they hire employees, that they're using a referral--many of these consulting companies, it's all referrals, it's all Jim knows Bob who knows John, and that's how you get jobs. It's primarily who you know and not what you know, and I think that there is benefits to referral hiring programs and systems, but I think that the way they're currently being done is just, like, creating this echo chamber of the same types of people. So I always encourage organizations to look at their systems and say, like, "Are Black people being promoted at the same rates as other people?" Because it's cool for you to say, "Look, no, no, no, we have a lot of Black people," but they're all in lower-level positions in the organization, but are they in senior-level positions, and if they are, how long are they staying? Because a lot of these tech companies, I love that they're being transparent and putting out these diversity reports, but they're not telling us how many of those Black people or those Latinx people or those women are staying in those roles, 'cause they're like, "Look, 13% of our population is Black [?]. Yay! That went up 1% from last year. Yay!" Like, but it's like, are those the same Black people, or did you just hire a bunch of new ones, and then those same ones with quit next--you know? So I think, like, looking at why there's this revolving door, particularly of Black people, you know, like, in the tech industry and all of these industries. The fact of the matter is that, like, Black people, a lot of us are not staying in companies, and part of the reason--a large part I would say--is because of the hostile work environments that we're working in. Zach: 100%. I mean, so Living Corporate, we've put out a couple of whitepapers, but, like, there's a few different reports, but they're, like, very rare, that talk about, like, turnover percentages. So I've yet to see anything that explicitly says "The turnover for this group is this." I've seen, and we've cited, sources that'll talk about the fact that Black and brown turnover is, like, two or three times higher than their white counterparts, but you're right. Like, there's no annual reporting that shows, "Hey, you know, our Black employees are four times more likely to leave within their first two years than their white counterparts." Like, that's not anything--those rates are never discussed. But you're absolutely right.Dr. Gassam: I think it's important, I mean, because these companies tout that they're so diverse, and I think that that's something important, that not just--we focus so much on the diversity piece. That is important to say, "Hey, look, we actually have diverse representation," but also, like, are they staying? Because if you're using stock images with Black people that look diverse that make your company look diverse but then I get there and I'm like, "Hm." I'm, like, the only Black person. That's, like, false advertising, and there's a lot of that going around, you know? I know the new buzzword is, like, performative allyship, and there's a lot of that going around with a lot of different companies that shall rename nameless, but yeah, I'm glad to see people are really calling them out, these companies out, and saying, "You posted Black Lives Matter, but you asked us not to wear Black Lives Matter stuff." Or "You have no Black people in senior positions," or "You have a hostile work environment where Black people don't feel comfortable." So, like, it's cute to--I wrote an article, like, "It's cute to post Black Lives Matter, but we want to see, like, policy changes." That's nice and fine and dandy, and I appreciate your statement because, you know, that's better than your silence, but I want to see more, and I'm glad that people are demanding more of their company.Zach: I wonder... I still don't think that organizations--and your piece was incredible, and we're gonna make sure that we link it in the show notes for those who didn't see it, but what I don't think organizations understand is that, like, if they come out here really loud externally about all these things they're gonna do to combat racism and inequity and things of that nature, but then, like, internally their policies and their cultures, their practices, their behaviors don't change, like, that's going to create more resistance, higher turnover, higher disengagement, than they had in the first place.Dr. Gassam: Mm-hmm, and as an employee, if I worked in that company, I would just be looking like, "Okay, y'all are, like, not really about that life." And I'm not about, like, exposing the company that I work for unless I feel like I've been completely mistreated--and I've definitely felt like that in workplaces, but my industry is very small, so I just silently exit a company, and I might speak of it but not give specifics and names and things like that. But I think that you're opening your company up to that type of negative publicity from employees if you're not, like, authentic in the things that you do, and I mentioned this before in a few speaking engagements I've done, but I have a friend that works at a very well-known consulting firm. She's been there for four years, and she said that--she belongs to a marginalized group. She's considered brown, and she said that since--her company has a diverse referral program, but she said since she's been working at the company for the last four years, they've never hired anyone from that diverse referral program. But it's just, like--I call it cosmetic diversity, where you have something in place just to look like you're doing something, look like you're actually about that life that a lot of these companies are not about [that life]. So I think that that's just not a good look. If you're gonna like the talk, you have to also be doing things that show that you're actually putting your words and your intentions into action.Zach: I agree. And to your point around, like, negative press or attention, it's--I think also, and all of this generational, because even I--you know, as someone... I'm 30, right? So, like, I'm not young-young, but I'm not older. I'm not old. So I think I probably still don't fully appreciate how easy it is--like, for something to go viral, especially as something negative, but it's, like, really, really easy. Like, there's so many avenues and mechanisms to, like, share your voice now, and I just don't know if organizations appreciate that AND the fact that, you know, doing that today, like, airing things out, putting people on blast, is not an automatic career ender like it might have been, like, five or six years ago. Like, if you put somebody on blast now, like, that doesn't mean that your career is over. It means you just--like, you may be actually heralded as a hero depending on how you do it, right? Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and just like a lot of these racists who say and do things after a year or so and the public forgets and they're able to go and get jobs, the same I think could be said for employees that put their companies on blast, because so many things are happening in our lives that we forget. Like, I don't remember all of these people's names. Are we still gonna remember Amy Cooper? Well, I guess there's a law now with her name, but are we gonna remember all of the Barbecue Beckys? Like, what their actual names are? Probably not. So I do think that you're absolutely right in that companies I don't think quite appreciate and understand how easy it is for people to get information out and just share their story and just share, "This company has a crappy environment." And you actually shared with me last year that internal memo, that Medium article, that those Facebook, those Black--I believe they were all Black, or some were Latinx--Facebook employees wrote about the toxic work culture and, you know, there's so many avenues to write anonymous memos and things like that about your company, and so that's not the type of press and reputation that you want. So I'm really happy that people are like, "We need to change. We are really--" Like, I've been getting requests, Zach, from, like, the most fascinating, like, industries that I never even expected, like, this person is reaching out and that person is reaching out. A fitness company reached out to me and said that they wanted me to do a webinar. A jewelry company reached out to me, and I was just like, "Wow." So, like, it's every industry. It's industry-wide. So, you know, I think that has really been interesting to me, that everyone is waking up and saying, "Whatever industry we're in, this is a problem that is, like, not specific to our industry. Everyone is having these issues and needs to figure out how we create an environment that is inclusive to Black people specifically," because I think that a lot of times the conversation gets watered down and we talk about other groups but we don't focus specifically on Black people and Black liberation and things like that, and I think that that's a huge part of the reason we're here, that we have more ease with talking about LGBTQ+ issues or gender issues than we do racial issues.Zach: You're absolutely right, and I think a large reason for that is because white people can be women and white people can be gay, but white people can't be Black. So it's like what does it look like to really shift and, like, have authentic conversations that center marginalized people? And it's interesting. I was talking to some colleagues a little while ago and was talking about the concept of, like, decentering whiteness, and they were like, "What do you mean?" And I was like, "A large way that we center whiteness is just in our language, right?" Like, a lot of the terms and things that we've created, we create those terms to avoid Blackness and to avoid the reality of harm. So it's like, we'll have these conversations and we'll talk about--you know, we'll say bias when it's like--and bias is, it fits technically, but what you're also talking about is, like, white supremacy or just racism, right? Like, we're not talking about--this isn't, like--like, bias softens it sometimes. In certain ways, bias softens it in the same way that, like, you know, it's not like I have a bias towards Coca-Cola versus RC Cola. Like, no, I genuinely think this person is less than me and, by relation, because of that, I treat this person differently. Like, that's different. And, you know, even--yeah, so anyway, not to go on a rant. So I do think this segues well though into your podcast, Dirty Diversity.Dr. Gassam: Yes. Yeah, so I actually started the podcast during Black History Month, and it was important for me to not only start it during Black History Month, but, like, the first episode was ironically, like, why your Black employees are leaving, because I don't think that we're talking about these things, and I think that we conflate people [of color?] with Black people, and we lump everyone together, I think for the sake of, like, conversation, it's easier to just say "Black and brown people," and it is, because a lot of these--your closeness to Blackness will impact your experiences, you know? And there's Latinx people who are stopped as much as us when they're driving, who experience racism just like us and things like that. So, you know, I think it's easy to say that, but I think it's important to put a particular focus on the unique experiences of Black people, and I don't think we do that enough, and when I'm asked to do these trainings there isn't a focus on--when that is the problem, Zach, it's that you're not able to retain Black employees. They're leaving, but you want me to come in and do inclusion training. Your problem is not inclusion. The problem is you're not creating an environment where Black people feel like they're valued and they matter, so we need to focus on that specific problem, and I think that watering it down is what we've been doing for so long, and that hasn't produced positive results or changes, so we have to just be bold and call it out for what it is. And I'm so excited, because I feel like I have been censoring myself--I censor myself on social media a lot because my colleagues follow me, so I can't be like, "White supremacy--" I can't be using that language a lot because, you know, my colleagues [?] me and all of these things, and I know in my field that's gonna get you--that sort of thing is not gonna sit well with... but now I feel like I can say what I really want to say, especially in the workshops, and I think that that's gonna make people [uncomfortable,] but for me, my goal isn't to make people feel happy. My goal is to help you change and help you create better organizations, and the way to do that is I'm gonna have to say things that are uncomfortable and you're gonna have to evaluate your role and how you've contributed to inequitable systems and oppression and things like that. And for a lot of people this is the first time that they've ever taken a look in the mirror, and just with speaking with different white women, they've said--and they're millennials, you know? Like, they're young, and they're like, "This is the first time I've really taken an honest look at myself, and even though I have Black friends and, you know, I dated a Black guy, you know, maybe I have white supremacist views," and it's like, "Yes, you do." Every white person who's born and raised in the U.S. have internalized white supremacist views, and a lot of it is just baked into our American fabric, so it's, like, recognizing that and using your privilege and your power to impact change.Zach: And, you know, I think that really leads us well into the book that you recently--I think by the time this airs it'll be published, so, like, let's talk about the book.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, and thank you again for the opportunity to just share my work with your audience. You know, I was--it was important to create the book, but now I'm already [thinking about] book #2 and how it needs to focus specifically on race. So I wrote "Dirty Diversity" as, like, a very simple, practical guide [for] implementable ways that you can create more inclusion and equity into your workplace. The thing that I've learned in the years that I've been--I've been in consulting now for, like, two years or so, and I've learned so much. When I started doing these diversity workshops, I knew nothing. I didn't know anyone personally that was close to me that did any sort of--I didn't know consultants like that, you know? Just people I went to school with who work at large consulting firms, but I didn't know independent consultants, so I had to figure a lot of things out on my own. I had to bump my head multiple times. So the book is written in three different sections, and the first section is for managers, and it's things that are so simple and easy to implement into your workplace you might say, "Why didn't we think about this?" Or "Why haven't we been doing this?" But it's simple ways to create more inclusion in your workplace. The next section is for people who do diversity, equity and inclusion consulting and things that I've learned from creating workshops and ways that you can improve the effectiveness of the workshops, but one of the things that I emphasize is that one workshop or one training is not gonna make a change. You have to encourage the organizational leaders to do multiple trainings and multiple workshops. And then the third section is written for employees and just, like, simple ways and simple things you can include in your workplace to create more inclusion as an employee, 'cause I get that question a lot where people say, "How do I get my manager to care about diversity? And how do I get my manager to--" And I think that it's not just get managers to care and to--it's understanding the value of what this can bring into your workplace, but there are things that you can do yourself. Like, you know, I talk about an employee book club, and that's something, like, super easy, and maybe petitioning your employee to sponsor an Audible membership--because everybody doesn't read. For me, most of my books I consume them now on Audible. So, like, if you have an Audible membership, you don't have an excuse now to say, "Oh, I didn't have time to read." You could, like, take a [?] minute walk and listen to a chapter of a book. It's very easy now to me to, like--for things as an employee that you can implement into your workplace. So I felt like this book was really necessary, and I didn't--I had no idea all of these events would be transpiring right now, so I feel like it's even more relevant. And there's so many--in the book I talk about some really simple things, low cost or no cost things, that you can implement to create more inclusion, and I think that there's a perception that you have to spend a lot of money--which I do think you should be adequately compensating your consultants that come in, and a lot of times people ask me to come in and they expect it to be free, so I think that is part of the problem, but there are things you can do, like having a panel in your workplace. That's something that is a really simple way to create inclusion that you probably didn't think about. Inviting someone like you, Zach, to come in to speak with employees on a panel just about equity and inclusion and different things like that is just, like, an event your company can host, and often times on panels people are donating time or, you know, giving up their time for free. So, like, there's so many simple ways. It doesn't have to be this, like, extravagant sort of, like, training program that could help you to create equity and inclusion. So that's pretty much, like, the goal. It's a simple read. It's, like, a little over 100 pages, and I think it's just filled with things that you can do and can easily implement into your workplace to create more equity and inclusion. I mean, I'm excited to--I've already got a copy, okay? So we're gonna--Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach.Zach: No, no, thank you, and so we're gonna make sure we put a link in the show notes for everybody to get a copy as well. And the book's title though--is the book's title "Dirty Diversity?"Dr. Gassam: Yes. So same title as the podcast. The reason I titled is "Dirty Diversity" is because diversity has definitely become a dirty word. People are not into having diversity trainings. There's a misconception about what diversity is, what it brings to an organization. There's still diversity resistance and pushback. So when you say, "We're gonna have a diversity training," people in their minds have an idea of what that is. There's a lot of research that indicates diversity trainings are not effective. So I really was kind of focused on, like, what are some things, in addition to workshops and trainings, that you can--what are some ways you can create more inclusion? Because I kind of resent the fact that--I've seen this meme going around, and I disagree--I think it's cute and it's funny, but it's like, "The revolution will not be in diversity and inclusion training," and I disagree with that. [both laugh] Have you seen that meme before? Zach: I have. I don't--I hear you though.Dr. Gassam: I was like--I don't agree fully. I think when done effectively workshops--if you're having workshops every month in addition to a multitude of other things like mentorship programs, I think they can be effective.Zach: I think authentic, intentional workshops paired with other systemic solutions are effective. I think most people when they think about these workshops, they're not talking about the type of work that you do or the type of work that, like, Dr. Erin Thomas at Upwork, that she does, thinking more about the--you know, the very white comfort-centered diversity of thought -type workshops. Those are not gonna lead us to no revolution, but I agree with you about, you know, intentional, intelligent, competent workshops along with other things are very effective.Dr. Gassam: Yeah, yeah, and that's--you know, that was my thought. You know, everybody's kind of--you know, and I try not to curse, but everyone's kind of, like, crapping on diversity and inclusion trainings, and I do think that in itself one training is not gonna change anything, but the problem is those companies don't even have ongoing trainings or workshops. They have one once a year if that. A lot of them have never had any sort of training, yet every year they have sexual harassment training, which I find to be interesting, you know? Zach: Well, it's typically to check a box, right, from, like, a legal perspective. Like, that's typically what they're doing so they can at least say, "Well, we do this, and we do it regularly," you know? It's not really about any type of behavioral change.Dr. Gassam: Exactly. Yeah, so it's like to check a box. So really, like, how to overcome this idea that diversity has become a dirty word. What are some really simple things? And I'm telling you, it's such a practical, simple--I'm not using any, like, jargon that you wouldn't be able to understand. It's very, like, a simple guide. You open it, you read it and say, "Oh, this is something, like, so simple. Why aren't we already doing this in our company?" But you'd be surprised. To me, like, something, like, a blind resume system. When people tell me they can't find Black candidates, can't find Black engineers, I'm like, "Do you have a blind resume system?" And they're like, "No, what's that?" And that to me is something that I think is so simple but a lot of people just don't know. So that's really, like, what the purpose of me writing this book was. Like, simple things that you think a lot of people know but they might not, and it's just, like, so simple to implement into your workplace. It's not complicated at all outside of just workshops that you can do to create more inclusion.Zach: Man, this has been super dope. What else do we need to talk about, Dr. Gassam? 'Cause I want to make sure I give you your space. So we talked about--Dr. Gassam: So much! Thank you. [both laugh] You know, there's so much. All of the performative allyship, all of the--Zach: Oh, yeah. Let's go in on that real quick actually. Yeah, no, this is good. So side note, y'all, for those who are kind of behind the scenes. Typically I send out, like, these very detailed questions before each podcast, but, you know, for people that like--you know, we kick it or, like, we kind of get each other's style or energy, we kind of freestyle. So this is actually a freestyle, y'all. That's why we're, like, actively trying to think about what we talk about next. We have a little bit more time. Dr. Gassam: And I really appreciate that, and we'll talk about how to support each other after we get into the performative allyship.Zach: Yo, let's do that. Okay, so this performative allyship stuff is crazy, right? Like, I'm so tired of these people--and you know what's really wild? It's like--what we don't talk about is, like, just... we don't talk about this enough I think just, like, culturally, the importance of authenticity, right? So, like, I've had people who have harmed me with their racist behaviors hit me up now talking about, "Hey, just thinking about you." Like, what are you talking about? Why are you talking to me, and why would the first thing when you reach out to me not about the harm that you caused, that you KNOW you caused? These are, like, [?], right? Like, these are things that, like, you gravely harmed me personally and professionally, right? It's not like you walked by, you touched my hair and said, "Oh, this is like my little pet lamb's hair back in my Meemaw's house." Like, no. This is "You harmed me." And so it's wild, like, that we have--how members of the majority... go ahead.Dr. Gassam: I know. It's just like--I'm getting a lot of people hitting me up, like, that are--you know those people that are in the periphery of your life? They're not in your life, but they're just, like, there watching from the--I get a lot of those, and there are people who have actively done things to prevent me from being successful, and they reach out to me, or on the other end people are asking of me, and I won't get into too many details, just, you know, to protect myself, but there are people who are actively asking things of me without consideration of the events that transpired. You're asking for projects from me and things like that, and I'm like, "Well, I'm not in a mental state--" And I've had to send emails like that where I'm like, "I'm not in the mental state to produce what you're asking me to produce because there are Black people being killed and slaughtered, videos," you know? And I just--and it's "Oh, my gosh! You're so right! I didn't even realize it! Oh, my gosh. Like, it's all because of Trump. This would have never happened if Obama was president!" [Zach sighs] And it's like... I mean, it did happen when Obama was president.Zach: It happened a lot [?] though.Dr. Gassam: I was just like... "Okay, but thanks." So I get those, where people are completely, like, oblivious to what's going on and what's happening and how maybe the Black [people] you know are impacted by this, so maybe I shouldn't be asking for X, Y and Z, and I've had to let people know, but I've also seen, yeah, like you said, people who have actively caused harm to you, "Hey, how are you?" Without any acknowledgement of what was done, what was said, your role in how you contributed. Lots of snakes in the grass.Zach: A lot of snakes in the grass! I think also just, like, the psychological--and, like, I don't even think, like, even just considering the additional mental and emotional toll you put on that other person when you do that. So, like, now, as the person who's receiving your random message after a year or after six months or however long, now I have to do the mental calculus if I'm gonna even gonna respond and then make a decision if I respond, "How vulnerable do I want to make myself in responding to you?" Knowing that if I respond to you and you get upset it could harm me even more. So it's just so... so that alone is, like, ugh, such a rant. Such a rant-worthy topic. I do think that it's, like, when we talk about allyship and--I just wonder, are people--I'm not curious about it. This is my belief. I don't believe that members of the majority have the capacity to, like, really deal with being explicitly anti-racist for more than, like... like, for a sustained amount of time, right? Like, you're already seeing on Twitter, people are getting burnt out. Like, "Ugh, I know that you guys are probably tired, but here are some tips that you can--" [Dr. Gassam laughs] "Make sure you drink your [?] tea."Dr. Gassam: You're absolutely right, and it's exhausting in that--and I know a lot of white people are confused, because in one breath we say, "You should be checking on your Black friends," but in another breath it's like we're getting binged and pinged and all of this, like, left and right, and then you have to keep having to revisit the conversation of, like, you know, "Why aren't you answering my text messages? I hit you up to check on you." 'Cause I don't want to keep talking about the same--like, I appreciate that you reached out. I don't--I'm not in the mental state. I want to go on a bike ride and just have the sun on my face and just not think about Black people being killed. I just want to listen to a podcast while riding a bike. Sometimes you just don't want to keep talking about, keep talking about it, and what I've found is that--it's interesting, companies want to give us space to talk about without asking us if this is something we want to take part in. A close friend of mine worked in a healthcare system, and she said her company was like, "Hey, can you be on this panel? It's all Black people talking about their families," and it's like, "I don't want--like, why do I gotta--you don't even--" Like, it's really like, "Hey, we want you to be part of this panel." "No, I don't want to." I had another friend who was asked to talk about white privilege, and she was like, "This isn't even my scope or my domain. I'm in PR. Why are you asking me to talk about white privilege? This isn't even, like--what, just because I'm a Black woman you want, "Oh, yeah, have her talk about--"" She was like, "What?" And I had to send out an email to somebody that asked me to a part of a panel, and I didn't want to be mean, but I was like, "When you're asking me to regurgitate and keep repeating why I feel bad as a Black person living in America, like, you should be paying me," you know what I'm saying? And I know that sounds like--it's not a matter of being all about the money, but it's a matter of, like, this is emotional labor, and this takes an emotional toll on me to be on 80 million eleven panels talking about why, what I feel as a Black person and all of this, and it's just like--the idea of paying a Black person doesn't often cross these people's minds who are organizing these events, and I'm just like--at this point, like, my mind [?] so busy with these workshops--and also I teach as well, so it's like with teaching and doing the workshops and promoting the book, like, I'm not gonna just be on a panel talking about how sad I am and my experiences as a Black person. There's so many thinkpieces online with people giving this information to you already. You don't need me on a panel to talk about what it feels like to be Black. And I hope I'm not being too raw, but it's just that's how I've been feeling lately.Zach: No, you're not being too raw at all. I see where you're going and I will meet you there. So look, folks who are asking--please stop asking us to talk about our feelings for free. I need y'all to stop. Many of you listen to the podcast, right? And, like, when I say you I mean aspiring allies and white executives. Stop. Now, look, especially--like, not to be classist, but especially don't be asking a bunch of degreed people to be doing it. Like, that's crazy. You have people out here who have whole doctorates in sociology and psychology and you're asking them to come on these panels for free. It's like, "No." Like, "I have the Western colonized expertise from an actual [?] institution, and couple that with the expertise of my lived experience, when you ask me for my time, I need you to pay me. Don't even ask." I've had people ask me for my time to do things and I'm like, "First of all, do you understand how much--" Like, I'm gonna feel drained after this, because I'm gonna talk about all these things and no one's gonna come back to me with, like, any tangible resources or support. It's just gonna be me, like, giving out.Dr. Gassam: And it's like--you have a podcast where you talk about all these things. You invite people to talk. You have--and then it's, like, on top of that you write about these things, on top of that you work full-time, on top of that you're a father and you have a wife. It's just, like, y'all gotta think about all of these things. It's like, "Hey, can you explain to me, like--" No, I can't. I'm sorry.Zach: No, I can't. And shameless plug, like, Living Corporate, it's not like we're just, like, a random podcast. Like, you can go on our website and type in anything and a bunch of stuff will pop up. Like, we have a whole database, so you can educate yourself, and, like, there's other free resources. I think it's so inappropriate during this time, like, going back to what you said earlier about organizations and, like, predominantly white leadership who have, like, either intentionally or unintentionally been the cause for people to exit their places of work are now, like, sending out these emails with a bunch of different options to have quote-unquote "real talk sessions," and, like, who made you a luminary on the subject one, but then two, like, why do you just presume that I even want to do this? But the challenge, Dr. Gassam, is, like, there's also the reality--which we don't talk about enough, and, like, shout-out to Brittany J. Harris of The Winters Group. I see you. She talked about it, like, explicitly--this was some months ago--about the fact that, like, power is, like, the silent "P" in DE&I, right? It's like--we don't talk about the fact that, like, yo, if a senior executive sends out something to talk, have one of these conversations, there's gonna be a certain percentage of marginalized people who feel pressured to join it simply because the person who sent out the invite is in power, right? Like, there's a power dynamic that we don't want to address, and also when you ask people to do things--like, nine times out of ten the Black and brown folks you ask to do this type of work or, like, to randomly jump in this and it's not even their expertise, they're gonna feel pressured to say yes because you're in charge, and then when they show up to do whatever you want them to talk about, white privilege, their own lived experience, whatever, they're going to be pressured to not be as honest as they would even like to be because they know that they might get fired or they may be opportunities withheld from them if they say the wrong thing.Dr. Gassam: Exactly, exactly, and I'm actually doing a workshop tomorrow, and the two individuals who reached out to me to do the workshop, they had told me they don't want to be part of the facilitation because there are--there's 500 people who are a part of this workshop, and they're worried because in their industry it's, of course, not what you know it's who you know, and I sympathized with them 100,000% because I'm still--you know, I work in an institution, and I can't fully say--I can't go out and jump on a limb and say everything that I would want to say because of that power piece and because I know that there's still many people who are uncomfortable when you're speaking the truth and when you're trying to--so it's like you can only say but so much, and unfortunately it's like--we need the raw, and we need it to the point, and I'm glad people are more open to that right now, but it's still, like, a concern for us and for people who do this work and, you know, even you as a--not only as an employee but as someone in the podcast space, I'm sure there's topics that you can venture into but not too, too much because you don't--Zach: Oh, Dr. Gassam. Ooooh, bay-bay. [laughs]Dr. Gassam: You know? 'Cause it's like, "I know my audience." You know, there's stuff--I'm sure there's a lot of stuff you want to say but you just--one day [I'ma?] have a tell-all.Zach: Listen, one day--no, I literally tweeted this the other day, I said, "One day I'ma let these @s fly." Like, I'ma really talk to y'all. But no, you're absolutely right, the power dynamic, it dictates, like, literally everything. So, like, you know, I talk differently now because I work--I have a 9-to-5 job. Like, the day that I do Living Corporate full-time, I'm still not gonna be able to talk as free because I'm gonna have clients, and my clients need to know and respect the fact that, you know, I won't air them out one day, you know what I mean? So, like, the only time that I think you ever really hear, like, Black people speak the truth, like, unabashed truth is when they have a lot of money, right? So you think about--you know, you think about, like, the Will Smiths and Kevin Harts and Dave Chappelles and Eddie Murphys of the world, the people who just--or people who just don't care at all, and those voices are needed, but it's just, like, I can't shame people for not being 100,000% raw all of the time when, like, our survival is predicated on some degree of white comfort. It just is. We can't just say--we can't speak the truth like we want to. Like, I believe I speak the truth pretty consistently, don't get me wrong, but there are certainly--like, I'm halfway joking, but there are things that I would like to be much more explicit about, but I can't, you know? Especially [because] I have a daughter, you know what I mean? You have to be careful. So let's talk about this. Let's talk about supporting each other during this time. So we're talking about, like, the emotional labor that we sometimes get pressured into performing or just the increased emotional labor during this time, but also just the general amount of labor just in being Black and brown in majority white spaces. When you asked or when you kind of suggested talking about supporting one another, like, what comes to mind for you?Dr. Gassam: So many things. You know, I think that besides the Candice Owens and some of these people out here that maybe don't [?]--Zach: Oh, my gosh. Please don't ever say her name again. Nope.Dr. Gassam: [laughing] I'm sorry. Some of these people, you know, these people, I think for the most part we got us, and the community that we're building and that we've built and the support that I feel from my fellow Black people just makes me really proud to be Black, and I have to say that in a lot of the--in April I was offering these complimentary workshops because I was transitioning from in-person trainings and workshops to online and I was acclimating and getting myself used to Zoom. So I was like, "You know, if your company wants a complimentary workshop just reach out." And let me tell you, I did 7 complementary workshops that month, and all of the people that reached out to me were Black women. I love that Black women are always, always at the forefront of putting other--we're always... I feel like we have such big hearts and we're always trying to, like, save the world, and people need to listen to us more, but I just think that in a moment like this, the support and the camaraderie that I'm seeing among Black people but particularly among Black women is just what, like, warms my heart and reminds me why, despite all of the B.S. and what we're going through, I'm so proud to be a Black person and to be a Black woman. So I think that just supporting each other, supporting Black businesses and things like that, just reaching out to your Black friends, I think--one of the many things that I love about us is, like, we're gonna have fun and find entertainment in anything, and I've been like--we've been crying a lot, but I just find that we just make anything into, like, something funny, into a joke. Like, after the Verzuz of Beenie Man and Bounty Killer, I was just, like, so entertained by the memes and the gifs, and I was just like, "I love us." Like, we are just so funny, and we're just like--so that's, I think, like, the fact that us coming together and just laughing and doing things that bring us joy and just, you know, the community I think right now is we're building that and we're creating these groups, and so I think that we should all be doing one thing that makes us feel joy, and whether that's, like, meeting up with a friend, grabbing some ice cream, riding a bike, I've been trying to do that more and more. And just, like, [supporting] each other. I have friends that reach out to me and say, "Hey, I want to bring you into my company," and it's like, just that support of, like, "I see you, I see the work that you're doing and I'm trying to put you on," is I think what we need more of and what I've been seeing a lot, and I just love that.Zach: Man, I love it too, and, you know, with that being said, if you haven't yet, make sure that you get a copy of "Dirty Diversity," Dr. Gassam's--it's your first published book, right?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. Yes, my very first published book, so I'm awaiting--it is gonna be available Juneteenth, on June 19th, and both the e-book and the paperback will be available on Amazon, but I'm also awaiting Audible approval because I recorded the audiobook, so I'm just waiting on that process now. Hopefully it'll all be good by June 19th, but I think by the time this episode drops it'll be available via Audible as well.Zach: Well, that's dope, and yeah, we'll make sure that we signal boost any of the promotions and advertising for it on Juneteenth, and then we'll also make sure that y'all check out Dr. Gassam's Dirty Diversity podcast. So Dr. Gassam, you know what I'm saying, she's way more fancy than me, so her guests--I mean, we have great guests, don't get me wrong. We have amazing guests, so let me not play, but I'm just saying, like, she's--Dr. Gassam: Yeah, you guys have amazing, amazing guests.Zach: We have dope guests, but I'm saying your guests are nothing to sniff at, you know what I'm saying? So make sure y'all check out Dr. Gassam, you know?Dr. Gassam: Thank you so much, Zach. I really appreciate it. Thank you for amplifying our voices and trying to use our platform to put more of us on. I think that that's an inspiration to me, and that's what I think we should all be doing, using our platforms and our power to put other people on, you know, other, our people on. But thank you so much, Zach, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your weekend.Zach: Yo, same to you. Listen, y'all, this has been Zach with Living Corporate. You know what we do. We're having these conversations weekly. So again, this might be your first time listening to Living Corporate, so as a reminder or as an FYI, we have Real Talk Tuesdays--that's when we have these, like, you know, 1-on-1 conversations. We then have Tristan's Tips on Thursdays, and then we have The Link Up with Latesha or See It to Be It with Amy C. Waninger on Saturdays. Like, those kind of interchange, and so we have essentially three different series a week, so make sure you reach out. We're all over Beyonce's internet, you know? Just type in Living Corporate, we're gonna pop up. And then yeah, you've been listening to Dr. Janice Gassam, public speaker, entrepreneur, educator, consultant, podcaster, and writer of "Dirty Diversity." That's also the podcast. Make sure y'all check out all the links in the show notes. 'Til next time. Peace.

Dr. Ginger Campbell is the host of Brain Science, a very large neuroscience podcast, and one of the earliest neuroscience podcasts created. In this episode, she discusses the podcast itself, why and how she started it up, as well as what it takes to run a neuroscience podcast. Top three takeaways: If you want to make a scientific podcast, you must understand the workload that comes with it. It takes a lot to generate accurate scientific content for your listeners. When doing a scientific podcast, it is critical to think about your audience. It can be very helpful to try to reach those outside your field, especially in science, as there is a need for this communication. When picking a topic for your podcast, pick something that you are passionate about, and something that you can talk about easily. [0:00] Ladan introduces the episode and the guest, Ginger Campbell [3:30] Campbell explains why she chose neuroscience as the topic for her podcast [6:45] The subject that Campbell is most interested in right now is the intrinsic activity of the brain [10:15] One author suggests that we should do away with the idea of the mind, and focus more on how the brain as an organ interacts with the world around it [12:45] To make a scientific podcast, one must realize that there is a tremendous workload involved. Creating accurate scientific content for a podcast is much different than making a podcast talking about your favorite TV show or sports team. [16:30] Authors enjoy coming onto the podcast for the publicity, as obtaining publicity can be very difficult, and being a guest on a popular podcast can be very beneficial [19:00] When doing a science podcast, you need to deeply think about the audience you are trying to reach. Communicating with those outside your field about what your field does is very beneficial in building a good audience, as there is a need for this type of communication. [22:15] Be careful of goofing off at the beginning of shows and going off on irrelevant tangents early in the episode, or it may prompt some audience members to stop listening [26:00] Campbell started the podcast because she has an interest and a knack for explaining science, the same way she explains medicine to her patients [29:30] Due to the current economic crisis happening, podcasters depending on advertising will likely suffer within the near future [31:00] For those wanting to do a podcast, it is important to pick a subject that you are passionate about. Talk about what you know and what interests you. [34:30] It is easier to make a podcast about neuroscience than about quantum mechanics, because everyone has a brain, whereas quantum mechanics do not affect people’s lives [37:00] Listener feedback is what will really keep you going when it gets tough [39:00] Ladan gives further thoughts on the discussion and discusses the services of Neural Implant Media   TRANSCRIPT (Auto-generated): Welcome to the neural implant podcast where we talk with the people behind the current events and breakthroughs in brain implants and understandable way, helping bring together various fields involved in Euro prosthetics. Here is your host, Latin Yara. Check. Hello everyone, and welcome to the neural implant podcast. Today we have a special guest. It's ginger Campbell of the brain science. Podcast, and I'm really happy to have her on the show. She is an O, G original gangster of the neuroscience podcasting space. She's been doing this since 2006 and the really one of the pioneers of podcasting, she says podcasting started in 2004 so she's not completely. The first person to do this, but that was like 1415 years ago, so you know, we can call it pretty much like that. So really interesting stuff. She's had over 10 million downloads on her show and really an honor to talk to. One of the people that started out Pluralsight is podcasting ginger Campbell. Pleasure to have you on the show. You are the host of the brain science podcast, which is a huge neuroscience podcast, and I'm really excited to have you on. We've actually been talking about this for awhile and do you want to introduce the podcast a little bit? Yeah, thanks. First I want to mention that the name of the podcast is. Brain science podcast is not part of the name anymore. Just in case you happen to be searching in your podcasting app. I think I took the name, I think I took podcasts I will name about five years ago. Actually, I don't remember exactly when I did it. I decided that putting podcasts in your title had become sort of redundant. Back when I started in 2006 it was really common for podcasts to be part of the title, but you know, now it's not so much. So anyway, just plain old brain science, neuroscience for everyone. Now you're making me rethink the name of my podcast. And so basically the idea of the show is to explore how recent discoveries in neuroscience are helping unravel the mystery of how our brains make us human. And my tagline is. The show for everyone who has a brain, because I want to communicate. The show doesn't require a scientific background. However, the listeners are very diverse, ranging from people who haven't gone to college. I've got a house painter and a plumber, and then actual neuroscientists, so that makes for a challenge when I'm creating my show. Interesting. And you said you started back way back in 2006 I think that's pretty much when a podcasting started. How was that? Well, podcasting officially started in 2004 and then it appeared in iTunes in the summer of 2005 which is when many of us early people became aware of it because before that you had to be able to. Code your own RSS feed and stuff like that. So I wasn't that much of a pioneer. And then it took me about a year to figure out what I wanted to make my show about. So, so I think I started about two years in which now that I'm on my 14th year, I guess, represents almost a pioneer. Yeah. I think for those looking back nowadays, they would, they would see very much as to see very little of a distinction. It's like, Oh, when did you, you know, when did you come to America? 1492 or 1512 or something. Like I said that at some point it's kind of like, ah, it's kind of, you know, splitting hairs, but so why did you choose neuroscience. Well because it just happened to be what I was reading at the time that I decided to start a show. I didn't want to show about my job, which I'm a physician, so I wanted to show that was about what I was just interested in, and at the time, neuroscience hadn't been quite become quite so popular, but I would be listening to people say things that weren't quite right because mainstream media. Coverage of science and neuroscience is, you know, pretty bad, and I wanted to share the things I was reading. I figured lots of people weren't going to read the books. I wanted to share the stuff I was learning with others. That was really my motivation and I wanted to make a show that was accurate, that told people what the science really shows. That was my, that was my driver. So you're working as a physician, but not necessarily in the field of neuroscience. It was just kind of an interest of yours then, right? Yeah. I actually came through it through philosophy of mind. I was reading Western philosophy for the first time in my life. I had been through Eastern philosophy, which is actually very mind oriented, but not exactly science oriented. And then I decided to explore Western philosophy. I discovered there's this whole subset of philosophy called philosophy of mind, and that's when I discovered that neuroscience had come a long way since I had last. Got it. Which was like right before I started medical school in 1980 that was in the days of huge glass electrodes and, and so I got really fascinated with neuroscience because like I said, it, it, it's, it helps us understand who we are. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, but that's still pretty interesting. I mean, there was a, to keep something up for 15 years or to, to maintain, you know, as somewhat expensive habits and a very, very time consuming habit of podcasting, you know, really is, is more than just a passing interest. I would have to argue that there was something bigger driving you, like how you were thinking, why you were thinking and the science. So maybe what were your favorites. Episodes or favorite subjects like this philosophy of mine. Specific topics, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Early on, I was really interested in the question of consciousness. That would be a major theme that still carries through on the show. My favorite early episode was one about exercise and the brain. With John Rady, unfortunately, as a horrible sound quality, but, but that was my favorite early episode because that was something people could use. He explained why exercising is good for your brain, and since the people who tend to listen to my show oftentimes care about their brain health, that one was one that had a personal impact for people. So it stands out out for me. Really? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And then of course, learning about brain plasticity. That was something that was new at the beginning of the show. Now it's kind of old hat everybody knows about brain plasticity, but the subject that really, the subject that I'm really fascinated by right now actually has to do with the intrinsic activity of the brain. And this actually might be relevant to your listeners who are interested in neural implants, because I've been reading a couple of books about the idea of the intrinsic activity of the brain. One is called the brain from the inside out by URI Misaki, which is, he's the guy who's very well known as a pioneer in brain rhythms. And I have another one. I can't think of the name of it right the second, I think it's called the spontaneous brain, but they're both on the same idea that we need to start looking at the brain from the inside out. It's intrinsic activity is really a key feature, and the reason why I think this might be relevant to people interested in neural implants is that I think it may explain how something like say the cochlear implant. Is why it's so successful. I don't know if you're aware of this, but when the cochlear implant was first invented, people didn't really think it would work because the amount of information in the signal is very poor relative to normal hearing. And what they found was that people learned to make sense out of what they were hearing from the cochlear implant. You start out making sense, but eventually their brain just kind of decoded it. And so. Bruce hockey's idea is that the brain is going along, making signals, making it, throwing signals out, throwing signals out. And then when we're lippy as a part of life, we associate through the timing of brain rhythms. A spontaneous signal was something else in the world, and we make a match. So if that's really true, then that means our brain can be more flexible for, you know, learning, you know, new ways to interact with the world. For example, a brain machine interface. You know, we could learn to, to generate a different brain pattern, to do a thing, say with the computer. And that seems to be what people are actually experiencing, right? When they're trying to create these interfaces. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. Boost hockey has a boost hockey, uh, array the Tetro and everything like this, and, and some of my colleagues have worked with them, but yeah, it's, it's definitely, you know, the amount of plasticity that's in the brain. And you, you might remember this actually, you might've been around like when this was, people were saying like, Oh, there's no, you know, change in the brain. There's no neurons being created after, after childhood. Right. And essentially that everything's kind of set in stone, but you know, that that basically negates all of learning. And, you know, people like kind of, kind of like with the cochlear implant, like, you know, people can learn crazy, crazy stuff like Morse code. I mean, people learn beeps and boops, you know, and, and translate that into, you know, speech almost. And, and like, I think I heard, I was hearing about like, people that are really good at Morse code, like they almost here. Writing or speech in that, you know? So yeah, it's crazy stuff. All this, all this about plasticity and how dynamic the brain actually is. And this other guy that I'm reading, and I'm, I can't pronounce his name, so I'm love to say it, but the name of his book is the spontaneous brain. He actually argues that maybe we should even do away with the idea of the mind and just talk about the world brain problem. That is, how does the brain. Interact with the world. And in, in his book, he, he talks about the empirical evidence. It's very similar to be sockies because they both talk about the evidence that faster rhythms are nested into slower rhythms. And also the fact that when you look at the brain's response to an external signal, it's. Influenced by whatever the brain is already doing. They're not additive. There's an interaction. So I think that idea, the idea of just doing away with the idea of the mind, he calls it a Copernican revolution because he's saying instead of having this, you know, like sort of mind centered view of the world, which gives us this, this, you know, mind body problem, which we can't seem to solve that. If we just shift our viewpoint from. To the interaction between the brain and the world. We can just do away with the whole mind body problem. It's just kind of an interesting thought. Yeah, definitely. I think, I think there definitely is a fallacy that lies there. But I want to talk about the podcast. So, you know, you have written here that you've passed 10 million downloads and are very influential. You've been ranked number one on iTunes and Libsyn, which is a big, you know, podcast, hosting a site. They're also have you as one of the proud, you know, like, Hey, look, who goes with us? You know, look who we have, you know, is one of our customers. But what has been your experience with hosting? One of the biggest. Well, unfortunately, science podcasts are not, you know, the most popular in terms of big numbers. I mean, my numbers are very good for science, but because of the way advertising works, you need really big numbers to, to make money. To give you an example, I don't know if you've heard of the person who does grammar girl. She's. Made a business out of her podcast, a Minoan Fogarty. She actually started as a science podcast and back in 2007 she told me she gave up science podcasting cause it was too much work. And, and that really is a reality. I mean, if you're going to, I know you would like to encourage more people to do science podcasts and so would I. But I think that it is important to be realistic about the work. Load involved. You know, if you make a fan cast about your favorite TV show and you just get together with your buddies and talk about it, you know, every week it's not, I mean, it's time consuming, but it's not the same kind of work as trying to create accurate science content. I think it's a level of challenge that the people that the average podcast or doesn't appreciate. That's funny that there's more money in grammar than there is in science. Yeah. Well, everybody needs grammar, and a lot of people don't think they need science. Yeah. No, it's very helpful actually. So what has been some of your, I don't know, responses or what? What kind of feedback have you gotten over? Geez, almost a decade and a half that you've been doing this, huh? Well, the two most surprising things. One is feedback from students. I never. Expected the feedback from students. I thought of my show as being a show that would be sort of the NPR adult kind of person who, who was curious about about neuroscience, but I have students of all ages, and I actually have one listener. Who is now in his first year of residency, who's been listening to the show as a psychiatry resident who's been listening to the shows for eight years since he was in high school. So that's pretty amazing. And I've had people write to me and say, I'm going to go into neuroscience because of listening to the show, so that. That was a total surprise. I did not expect that. And the other surprising thing is when people with with neurological or mental health challenges write to me and tell me that. That might show helps them to cope with their challenges. I had a listener once who said he was listening to the show with his father who was dying from Alzheimer's, and I recently actually had a patient, sorry, excuse me, habit, a listener, right? Saying that he had recently been diagnosed with early onset dementia, and he was still listening to the show that he felt that was helpful to him. So. It's as a physician, I have to say that the most amazing thing is realizing the show has impacted so many people, so many more people than I'll ever reach as a physician. Yeah, that's pretty amazing stuff. I mean, and that's something I, I, you know, talk about on my show as well. Like, you know, a good scientific paper might get, you know, a hundred views and like five citations or something like this. And that's, you know, you can be proud of that. But with our shows, you can get hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of downloads and that reach, although maybe not as deep and, and like, you know, in the specific subset it breaches, it goes much further. And I think that really. Gives your research and your message much more value as well. Yeah. I don't have any trouble getting guests. Uh, even though I do focus on scientists who write books, I occasionally interview people who are involved in basic science, especially people that are, uh, extremely good at communicating like Seth grant, for example. But the reason that I focus on books is that it gives my listeners a place to go if they want to learn more. The average person doesn't have access to the literature. You know, they don't have access to an academic library. All these, lots of these papers are still behind paywalls. But by talking to somebody who's taken the time to put a bunch of research together in a book, if a person you know, wants to go to the next level, their first choice is just go and read the book and people actually do that. So authors are very happy to come on my show cause they, most of them really do understand that. Yeah. They, they want as much, you know, public publicity as I can get. Cause it really can be hard to sometimes break above the noise. And yeah. I mean there is something special about like having somebody who's worked in the field and you know, potentially. Simplify things and, and, you know, get it from behind the paywall because that's actually, that's the reason I started this show as well, was, you know, trying to get to the research. I was outside of the paywall at the time, but I wanted to learn what everybody was doing and who the big people in the field were. So, uh, I figured I might as well help other people with this as well. So, yeah. That, that's really interesting. You, you're very much into books. You have a different, you have another podcast about books actually as well, right? Yeah, so it's called, it's called books and ideas. It has a pretty small audience because it's not niche enough. You know, in podcasting, it seems to be an advantage to be, to have a niche. And even though books and ideas clearly describes what the show really is, it, it's not quite, I mean, it's really the place I put everything that doesn't fit. So I might talk to a science fiction writer, or I might talk to a scientist. I might talk to, I, I've interviewed. Astronomers physicists, a woman who's written video game novels. So I mean, it's very, very, very diverse, which I enjoy, but makes finding its audience difficult. So it's truly my passion project. Yeah, for sure. That's a, that's interesting. So what do you think, I mean, do you think, uh, the world would be better if there was more podcasts if more people were doing this kind of stuff, or would it be crowded or what's, what's your kind of opinion on science communication? We definitely need more good science podcasts. I mean, many years ago, I actually tried to start a website. It was called, this was back in 2008 I started a website called science pod-casters dot org and I tried to recruit Joe's to come and basically share their. Show notes all in one place so people may be, would find them. And I closed it down in 2010 because the national science foundation started their site, which I think is called. Science three 60 I'm not sure. Anyway, it's a very good clearinghouse for good science podcasts, and there was a way I could compete with that, but I do think that if you're going to do a science podcast, you really do need to think about what is the audience you actually want to reach. If you want your show to be, you know, the inside baseball, you know, really highly technical. Fine, but realize your chances of getting an audience is going to be, you know. You could, it's okay to have a small audience, but you need to know that that's what's going to happen if you want. If your passion is you want people outside your field to understand what your field is about, I think that's really, really valuable, especially these days because science journalism, you know, the newspapers aren't paying for science journalists, the television networks. Obviously aren't paying for good science journalists, so there's a huge need for somebody to go out there and communicate to people what science is really about. To give you an example of another great Lipson podcast that I'm promoting right now, for obvious reasons, is this weekend virology. I mean, if you want to hear a great show, that's really the science of coronavirus. This week in virology, which is a Lipson show and Vincent ranch and Ella used to be a part of my science podcast or.org organization. This week in virology launched in 2008 so it's not a, you know, Hey, let's jump on the bandwagon. You know, I had to get that in there cause I really think this is an important show for people to listen to. I just think that, I think it's really valuable. We need, I'd like to see some good physics shows that, you know, tried to explain things to regular people like me. You know, I guess maybe Sean Carroll does a little on his, but he, his show is, I don't think it's. It's really focused on physics, even though he's a physicist. Yeah, but if you're going to do it, I would the run recommendation if I had anything to do different, I don't know if you're planning to ask me that question. If I was going to do something different, I would want to have a cohost. I mean, you know someone to carry the load so that you know it's not all on you. If you can find a cohost, you'll probably have a better chance of, of lasting and not pod fading. And plus listeners enjoy, you know, hearing the relationship between the cohost. And that's something that, that, that I, I've never had the opportunity to do. Yeah, definitely. I agree. Like I've, I've had, I've also co-hosted some, some other podcasts, you know, with some colleagues, and that does get go much better because you get a different perspective. I mean, obviously, you know, the questions that you ask, you know your way of thinking, but then the cohost might ask a question and that's just like, Oh wow. That is actually very interesting. I'm very curious what the answer is. I think that's a very good piece of advice. But beware of the excess chitter chatter. I can't tell you how many podcasts I have turned off at the beginning because everybody's talking about. You know, it doesn't matter what TV show they watched or whatever. Most of us can't pull that off. I mean, if you're like a celebrity, maybe somebody wants to know what you did last night, but otherwise they probably don't and they're probably going to turn off your show before you even get to your interview. If you make it a habit. Of doing too much goofing around at the beginning. And that's, that's just my opinion. But I've heard other podcast listeners say the same thing when talking about what shows they turn off. Most of us aren't as funny as we think we are and know, get to the point. For sure. I completely agree. It has to be substantive. So, okay, so what's, what's your plans with the future of brain science and what kind of goals are you hoping to accomplish with it? Well, you know, this year it's hard to know what's going to happen. I was really hoping to take the show to another level this year. I actually experimented with going back to twice a month, which I, um, did the first two years of the show. But I've decided to go back to once a month, which has worked well for over 10 years. I'm trying, I was planning to release the second edition of my book. Are you sure? The unconscious. Origins of certainty next week, but that's been held up just in the layout. Um, stage, just because of uncertainties with, with the pen dynamic, and I'm not sure how people are going to get books. Amazon's society books are very low priority. If you order a book right now from Amazon, it'll come whenever. So it's probably not a re the best possible time to be releasing a book. And I really want to write that book. Are you sure is really just based on several older episodes of the show. And what I really want to do is to write a truly original book because I mean, I got almost 15 years worth of material. I got lots of material. I want to write an original book, mainly because let's face it, there's still a lot of people who don't listen to podcasts. And. The reality is books are still, you know, the gold standard. So I want to write a really good, but it's called, it's going to be called why neuroscience matters, because really my, my whole premise is that understanding how neuroscience works should be a basic scientific literacy skill for the 21st century. For example, if you understand what cognitive dissonance is. Politics make a lot more sense, but at any rate, so that's really my focus for this year is to get those books out. And then I w I hope they will help grow the show, but the main thing is to reach new people. Okay. Yeah. Just kind of educate the world on, on everything that's going on, how we think, why we think, I think that's a really good idea. But I would, I would argue that, you know, books are, you know, obviously they reach different type of peer person than, than podcasting. And maybe more, maybe less, I don't know. But I would say that even better. Methods of teaching. And a big part of that is actually video is, you know, lot more people. For example, watch YouTube, then read books. Yeah. And I'm not going to argue with that. I don't see myself as a video person. If somebody came to me and said, Hey, do you want to be part of a video project? I'd say, cool, but I'm not, you know, I'm not gonna. Take that on as a solo project. Audio podcasting is enough of a challenge as a solo project. I appreciate the fact that that a lot of people still, you know, now learn by video. I happened to be a person who learns by reading and believe that there are still those of us out there. We learn by reading and I'm willing to accept the fact that. Someone else may be reaching those video people. Yeah. And if somebody wants to come to me and say, Hey, here's your great book. How can we put parts of it into a video? You know, I'll be, I'll be up for that too, but I know what my strength is. Yeah. I mean, I got into podcasting because I realized almost immediately that it was just something that, that, um, really excited me and I felt like I was good at it. Explaining science is a lot more like my day job in which I explained medicine to my patients. So it kind of, you know, trying to translate things into English is something that sort of comes naturally, or at least I've been doing it so long. It feels natural. Yeah, definitely. Kind of, I mean, essentially you're translating from Latin into English. Well, it's not quite that bad, but close enough. Yeah. I did want to talk about one other thing that was related to the book, and that was, I had. I've had half a listener who's been just sort of hounding me about making an audio version of, are you sure? Which I'm not planning to do, partly because of expense and partly because of the content is already available mostly in audio. Format, but when I do my big book project, I definitely do consider making an audio version of it to be essential for the exact reason that you just mentioned that the format of audio is so good for reaching people. And the thing I love about audio versus video is that a person can be. They can be driving their car. They have been going for a walk. They can be cleaning their house. They can, I don't know how you would mow the lawn because I don't think you'd be able to hear it, but you can do a lot of stuff while you're listening to audio as opposed to, you know, video, which if you're actually really paying attention, you know, you kind of have to. Look at it. So that's why I'm comfortable with not doing video, although I appreciate the fact that, that it's, it's a very powerful tool. I mean, I'm the person who, when I go to the website, I don't watch the videos. I say I look for the, where did they put the written instructions? In fact, I have a coach who has all these videos and she's learned that she's just going to send me the PDFs because I don't want to watch the video. So it may be a generational thing, but. You know, I'm a baby boomer. There's plenty of people in my boom's still left. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think also like audio is kind of the sweet spot where it's easily accessible and you also, like you said, you can do it while doing other things, driving, transporting, you know, basically all the stuff that I've stopped doing. So actually I've had my podcast kind of pile up because I've stopped commuting to work and I stopped, you know, doing all this stuff that where I, where I used to listen to podcasts. It's been a, it's been pretty bad. I'm going to have quite a backlog once I get back to everything. Right. And that's, you know, that's why it's hard to know what's going to happen. Rob Walch from, from Lipson, he, he's been talking on the feed about how the last slump in, in podcast advertising happened in 2008 with the, with the financial crisis in 2008 and I remember that because I had one. Really great advertising campaign with the Navy, and then the rates just went through the bottom. I mean, they just, they went way down. So people, podcasts, which you rely on, on advertising, are really going to be, you know, hurting in the next, you know, foreseeable future. And then the people who are making their living off of production, you know, audio editing and things like that are probably also gonna, you know, struggle a little for me. My show's established and I can survive on a plateau for a while, but if I was somebody just starting out, I'm not saying you shouldn't start now. But this might be a good time to be in the planning phases, right. And, and really get everything aligned up. Maybe if, I think if I was starting a new show at this point, what I might consider doing is getting a large number of interviews in the can, right. And then launching in the fall, maybe when people are hopefully going to be back on a more regular schedule and then you won't have that time pressure of trying to put out a show every week. So we can make the best of it. Yeah, definitely. Don't have this be dead time. Have it be useful, actually. Yeah. So what is, what are some, what is some advice that you have for people in the neuroscience field? Neurotechnology in general, like through your experience in the field and, and having talked to so many people. Well, I always, I always ask my guests to give advice to students because I have so many student listeners, and one of the things that, that many of my guests say, which I think applies to us whether or not we're students or not, is to choose something that, that you're really passionate about. In other words, if you were going to do a podcast. Unless you are intentionally planning a very short run series that's gonna like say go 12 episodes in and, but if you want to do it for a prolonged period of time, you've got to pick something that you're really passionate about. I picked neuroscience because I felt like I wasn't going to run out of material, which has certainly proven to be true every time. I think that I've kind of gotten. You know, into a stuck point. I turn around and I've got a bunch of new books in my mailbox and I'm like, and I get enthused again. So if the subject doesn't light you up, you're not going to last. I think the, the old writing advice, you know, to re, you know, which is write what you know, probably applies to podcasting too. Yeah, definitely. I would completely agree. I mean, you know, even even in the field of, even in the sub field of neural implants, you know, especially the guests that I have a little bit more familiarity with, it's much easier for me versus something like, you know, computational stuff or you know, programming or whatever, and they're just like, Oh shoot, this is a bit outside of what I know and what I can intelligently speak about. But also, I guess not. What I'm interested in. I am interested in it, but maybe not to the extent to the other stuff. So I completely agree, and I think you've shown this very well. It's, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon, you know? And then when you're, when you're planning your interviews, I think they're, the most obvious rule is read ahead of time. You know, you know, if you listen to interviews in the mainstream media, you can lots of times tell that they haven't read anything by the person that they're interviewing, right? So even if you're interviewing somebody who's only who's written a paper or whatever, you want to have read their work. And then when you're thinking about your interview, I recommend making your questions. Ask yourself, well, what is the one thing about this person's work that I want my listeners to understand? And then gear all your questions to that. And most scientists don't mind if you say to them, can you back up for a minute and explain what you meant by XYZ? If you're making a show for nonspecialists, they don't have to understand everything, but they need to be able to understand the big picture and they don't like being talked down to. I mean, the show I do basically goes against all the, all the dogma about how to do science. Broadcasting. You know, if you look at mainstream media, everything is so watered down. There's this assumption that people won't understand it or that you need a bunch of special effects, which of course obviously don't have and neither one. I think neither one of those things are true, but you do have to be able to make it clear. Why should I, the guy off the street care about this? I mean, you're doing a show about neural implants. I think probably, you know that. That's not as hard as it might be for some other show. I always like to joke that it's a lot easier to make a podcast about neuroscience because everybody does have a brain, and neuroscience really does affect us as individuals, whereas like most of us are not affected by quantum mechanics, so it doesn't matter whether we understand it or not. Yeah, I mean, I know we are affected by quantum mechanics on some level, but you know what I mean? We're not making day to day decisions based on her understanding of quantum mechanics. Yeah, exactly. Kind of make it relevant. Bring it, bring it all home. Right. And I'm not mean telling them what to think. I am also a big believer in trusting that the science can speak for itself. You know, decide what the key idea is. Help your guest to share that key idea. And then you have to trust your listeners. Yeah, for sure. This is really interesting stuff. I love it. Um, you know, especially coming from, you know, like I said, one of the biggest science podcasters, you know, of our time and, and somebody who's been doing it all, I'll say pretty much from the beginning. Yeah. There's a couple of science podcasts out there. They've been around longer than mine, but not many. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I'd have a hard time believing it honestly. Like, unless it was like radio program before, I was just like, Oh, we might as well do podcasting in addition to this, like science Friday. That's kinda what I'm thinking. Right. I don't care that I don't count those because those are repurposed radio shows. So you're right. One of the oldest ones is probably a repurposed radio show, but there is a show called the astronomy cast, which is Pam Hamlin. Gay's done over 300 episodes of that show. I think she launched in three 2005 while she's in the podcasting hall of fame, the only science podcast in the podcasting hall of fame, like actual hall of fame. Well, it's called the Academy of podcasters, and now it's been bought out, so it's probably going to become the Hollywood podcasting hall of fame, but the people that are currently in it are true pioneers. Just Google Academy of podcasters hall of fame. She got a star on the Hollywood walk of fame. No. But yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's a lot of work creating a science podcast, but I think it's, it's, it's a great way to share pot. I think it's a great way to share science. It just, it's just a lot of work. You have to, the thing that will keep you going if you decide to do it, and I don't know if this is your experience, but for me, it's listener feedback. Every time I think I'm going to quit. I get an email from somebody who said, tells me, you know how it's made a difference to them. And, and that, that keeps me going. Yeah, definitely. Like the, the feedback is, is great. And the really, it's amazing kind of the connections that you create for others and then you create for yourself as well. But another thing for me too is because I can go to conferences and I have gone to conferences kind of helping out on the meta side of things with some things, I, I'm basically in the room of, you know, a few hundred people that, you know. Portion of them who know who I am and listen to the show and everything like that. So that's kind of an amazing thing because I have a, I have a travel podcast as well actually, and it's, it's bigger than the Nerland pop podcast, but you know, it's just diffuse, like it's all over the world. So I would never in the wild run into one of my listeners, but at one of the conferences, it really, it does happen and people are, you know, people like it, you know? And so that, that also kind of motivates me a little bit further, cause it's just like, it's not just numbers on a screen, it's actual. People and it's actual, you know, it's, it's has real life consequences I guess. So, Dr. Campbell, this has been excellent. Thank you so much for coming on. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you wanted to mention? Yeah. And, and I have a free newsletter on my website, so if somebody says, well, I'd like to know when that book is really happening. Who's got a brain science podcast.com and sign up for the newsletter. You get. Show notes automatically and know when the book is finally a reality. Excellent. I'm looking forward to it and especially looking forward to the audience guys. Hopefully you enjoyed that. Yeah, it was interesting. Afterwards we talked about, you know, how hard it is to make money podcasting and how little it is, and you know, she's like, Oh, you can put some of your episodes behind a pay wall, or, you know, do a Patrion and have people donate to you. But with how niche this show is, I don't think I'd be making too much. And I don't think, I don't want to do that to you guys. Like, and only earn 20 bucks a month, you know, sell out my soul for 20 bucks a month, or you know, 30 or whatever. I might end up earning from that. But I do this for the love of the topic and the. The people that are in it and just reaching out and everything like this. I think it's really good, but I mean, please do remember that I do offer other services, and so if you're interested in either advertising on a podcast or making your own podcast, or filming a promotional video for example, or a conference, or you know, a panel or whatever, I'm doing three D animations, then I'm available for this as well. The email is. Latin@neuralimplant.media and so yeah, I can do all your media needs. Even things like making some figures in, in some journal articles. I've seen some really, really ugly figures, really ugly photos, and I can make that a little bit better. Just that much better. To, to make it more attractive. And you know, it's a small thing, but it's a is, it's a very real thing. And I've seen people close and I've seen people just stop reading. If they saw like an especially hideous graphic, then yeah, let me know. Let me know and I'll see if I can help you out. Hope you enjoyed the show and were able to learn something new, bringing together different fields in novel ways. Until next time on the neural implant podcast.

Headed on down to South Park gonna have myself a time....oh damn! It's the South Park Guys. Carman and everyone. They are here and they are ready to equal opportunity offend. But First! Nearly 90 minutes of two sad guys in their houses going "Uhh". On today's show we've got stupid snack innovations, more coffee trash from the coffee trash heap, some virus cash-ins, and a few things Mike pretends to actually like for some reason. So, again, get through all that and we will have you back with Kenny and The Gang in no time, finding out how he died, assuming they still do that thing. Which I'm pretty sure they do, unless the guy who does the voice for him became a Scientologist. Alright. Enjoy the (South Park) show. Music for YKS is courtesy of the Hell Yeah Babies, Craig Dickman, Howell Dawdy, and Mark Brendle. Additional research by Zeke Golvin. YKS is edited by Producer Dan. Hey for more YKS check out YKS Premium on Patreon. Not gonna twist your arm about it but you might like it. I don't know. What other kind of stuff do you like? See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Hello everyone and welcome to Episode 16 - How to Craft a Rolling Social Media / Digital Marketing Internship Program for your Company.  In this episode you’ll hear this amazing guest, Jennifer Osbon! She is a Full-time professor at University of GA leading the Digital Marketing Area of Emphasis in the Terry College of Business and she teaches Social Media Marketing Strategy and Digital Marketing Analytics to both undergraduates and MBA students. We discuss the needs on both sides – the students and the corporations which sets the table as to why you should consider an internship at all. Where you should start?  She gives a great framework and ideas for the steps and considerations so you don’t make the mistake of “winging it” and she even reveals common pitfalls you can avoid!  You want to develop a reputation where students talk about how great the experience was with your firm as opposed to them saying things like, “they didn’t let me do hardly anything and I was bored to death!” She explains What is and how can you structure a “rolling internship program?” and paid or unpaid – if paid – how much?!! Did you know that universities have Internship resources – career services as well as the specific college or department with people who you can develop relationships with in order to recruit Interns? Listen in and thank you for listening! Carey (00:01): Hello and welcome to Carey Sperry, all social ya'll podcast. I'm your host, Carey Sperry. We discuss how to employ social to become truly customer centric. We identify how social is a fuel for business growth and we talk with some of the best and brightest business leaders, entrepreneurs and digital marketers. Our guests share inspiring stories and effective tactics to discover, interact, and emotionally connect with customers where they are on social platforms. Hello everyone and welcome to episode 16 how to craft a rolling social media digital marketing internship program for your company. Thank you so much for being here. I am delighted to introduce you to an amazing guest, Jennifer Osbon. She is a full time professor at university of Georgia - go Bulldogs! She leads the digital marketing area of emphasis in the Terry College of Business. She is faculty supervisor for the UGA collegiate chapter of American Marketing Association and teaches social media marketing strategy and digital marketing analytics to both undergraduates and MBA students. The courses are based on curriculum that she developed mixing strong digital marketing principles with sociology, economics and analytics. She also sits on the marketing executive board for UGA, ensuring that the curriculum taught in the classroom, provides the students with an employable skill set upon graduation. Jennifer, thank you so much for being here with us today. Jennifer Osbon (01:58): Oh, I'm so excited. Thank you for having me. Carey (02:01): Sure. So we met through LinkedIn how appropriate haha I feel fortunate and lucky to have met you. Really. Um, and when we met we had an immediate rapport, which I loved and maybe because we share both our passion for digital marketing but also teaching, I'm no college professor, but your story and how your career has evolved into playing a super important role for both students and our business world. Can you, can we start off by you briefly sharing that journey with us and kind of how you ended up becoming a full time professor of digital marketing at UGA? Jennifer Osbon (02:40): Yeah. So, well it's a little bit of lightning struck. I was at the right place at the right time. Um, but, but it is kind of an interesting story I guess. Um, I was guest lecturing in a masters of internet technology class and the PR, I basically was doing a, a capabilities presentation Jennifer Osbon (03:00): for my company. I used to own a full service digital marketing agency, and was talking about here's kind of how we see the world and where we think it's going and that kind of thing. And he said to me, you've got a lot of content here. And I said, yeah! I said, but it's really difficult to hire students to come into this world because while they're digital natives, what, they're not...., They're not really good at using these technologies as marketers. They're really good at using these technologies as users. And so that led to a conversation, um, with the marketing department chair at Terry college of business here at UGA. And I went in and I met with Charlotte Mason and sat down with her and said, she said, what's on your mind? Jennifer Osbon (03:55): And I said, well, I can't hire your students. ...Not just me. I mean, industry-wide, these kids, ...they're coming out great users, but not coming out as great marketers. And so, you know, she said, well, what would you teach them? And I kinda said, well, some sociology, some economic principles like momentum and how we develop those things online, the tectonic shift and how we spend our money in marketing these days. And, and all kinds of things- that is not tips and tricks, it's more strategies. And so she said to me, why don't you write what you just said - write it down in this particular format? And I went to a meeting with a teacher and I came away with homework. So that's kind of a what I would have expected. So I did my homework, I turned it in and she called me six weeks later and said, "I got your course approved. " And I didn't realize I had written a course, but what she had put in front of me was curriculum. Jennifer Osbon (04:56): Yeah. And so, you know, as a small business owner, I thought to myself, well, this is perfect. I'm going to have academic credentials that's going to help me with business development. I can hire the best students right off the top. The rest of them can go to work for my competitors. And, and I've done some good in the world and you know, but at the end of the day, I was thinking all about me, me, me, what am I going to get from this? And, um, I wound up, -so my deal was I was going to teach only Tuesday and Thursday mornings and be done by noon. And so I thought, all right, this is good. I'll keep my business and do this part time and it was going to be great. And I got here and I absolutely fell in love with the students. Jennifer Osbon (05:40): I fell in love with the energy that you get from being around young people. And what I learned very quickly from the students is that, you know, they've got this aptitude and if you just shift their lens, so they look at it from a business instead of a consumer perspective, their light bulbs go on. And it is amazing what they can do if it's just framed right and they're just like, Oh....I get this. And they know exactly what they're doing. Well, three year story condensed, down to 30 seconds, I wound up shutting down my business. I wound up coming to teach full time and I literally have done a complete career pivot to where now I am a full time professor and absolutely loving the ability to grow and build the digital marketing area of emphasis and breaking down what that means. The emphasis is basically students who are business students in the Terry College of Business, where they have, declared marketing as their major. Jennifer Osbon (06:45): And then what they do next is they have a choice to go deep in either professional selling or in digital marketing. And I lead that, that emphasis. And within that the school has been very, very accommodating where they say, you know what, my job description is, teach these students what they need to know. S it's not about - you need to use this particular textbook. I don't even use textbooks. Right? This industry moves so quickly. That's not that where we need to be spending our time, effort, and money. Anyway, it's turned into an absolute amazing situation. And now we're graduating students who have digital area of emphasis on their diploma from the college and they're moving straight into the workforce. Carey (07:35): Wow. What a gift to both the university, the students and the business world. I mean, you're like, what if there weren't that sequence of events? ...if it wasn't for you, I wonder how long it would have taken? Which I'm sure they would've figured it out, but it's just awesome. With that, and that you love what you do and you love being around the young student body. Jennifer Osbon (07:54): Absolutely. What was interesting about the way that it came about is that they look at curriculum every few years and they realize what's missing and then they try to go fill in those gaps. And I happen to have been the right place at the right time that made that work. Carey (08:10): Yes. Awesome. So we're going to get into a way to craft a rolling internship program for our listeners. But I just wanted to kind of mention, you know, hearing that you guide your students who are preparing for the workplace to apply their social media learnings and other digital marketing strategies and tactics to what are mostly strategies, like you said, to what's needed in the current business landscape. And this requires you and university to, like you said, continually assess the needs of corporate America. Right? So let's start with the backdrop of the needs on both sides, the needs of the students and then the corporations, which will kind of set the table as to why, - why, you know, businesses should consider an internship program at all. Jennifer Osbon (08:56): Okay, sure, sure, sure. So, well, there's lots and lots of different flavors of internships. There's part time and full time there's paid or unpaid and, and in general, what I feel like that we should talk about today is really paid full time internships where students have set duties or planned rotation where they can get a real comprehensive look at a role or a function within a company. When you think about it, students want to do internships to gain experience in their desired field. It's hard to get a job without experience. And honestly, the easiest way to know if you like a job is to actually do it. So internships really offer students that hands on opportunity where they can connect what they're learning in the classroom to the real world. And in theory, that internship experience makes them stronger candidates for jobs after graduation, right from the company being active. Jennifer Osbon (09:56): Obviously, if you hire for entry level roles, internships give you that option to try it before you buy it. College students can intern in the summer between their junior and senior years and then join full time after they graduate. And, and that usually works for large companies who have like an ongoing new associate program. But for small middle-sized businesses, you know, the predictability of, of head count increases is maybe a little bit more fluid. I mean, you don't know what your life's gonna look like six months a year down the road. But that doesn't mean to consider interns. You know, you don't have to have the carrot of a potential job in order to get students interested in interning for you. Students are building their network and they're interested in gaining experience in the industry. They're looking to line their pockets with a little bit of cash. So you can actually help students. What you become is a really good reference for when they are finding their full time job. Right? So, so internships don't have to always lead to that full time job. If the internship is crafted properly, students can add real value to your business and they can save you a little bit of money over what you would have to pay a full time person to do the same work. Right? Jennifer Osbon (11:28): People often ask, do I have to pay interns? And you know, like with most things in life, you get what you pay for. If you pay interns, it makes them feel appreciated. It makes them work harder. It also allows you to grow greater diversity when it comes to your hiring. Because if you're not paying interns, you're only gonna hire the rich kids whose parents can financially support them while they're not earning money. Right. So people ask sometimes, you know, what should you pay a digital marketing intern? Their wages can be between, you know, 12 and $20 an hour, which is way less than that 50 grand you would be paying a full time person, right? That 12 to 20 an hour would be something like 24 to $40,000 a year - just cash outlay as opposed to a $50,000 for a full time person. Carey (12:26): Well I just having a daughter in the college world right now, she's a senior at Georgia state between her friends and just random interactions that I have with college students. Like I had one in an Uber, um, not too long ago who says to me, we have to have an internship and it seems like there's a shortage. I don't know if that's accurate. That's just from there, kind of like, not desperation, but I see all the time how eager they are to find an internship and how they're saying that you have to have one to get a good job. Is there, is there a shortage? Do you know? Jennifer Osbon (13:08): Well, it's not that there's necessarily a shortage. Students know that they really do need to have an internship. Think about graduating from college and all you've got on your resume is I have this fancy shiny college degree and I scooped ice cream at the local ice cream shop and I was a lifeguard. You know, they really need something that says I got this degree and I actually know what I'm getting into. So that internship is the thing that really drives credibility for students. And so, you know, some of them will actually tell you they would rather have an internship than a study abroad. And the option to travel the world and learn how to do that is not a very attractive thing to too many college students. And they're saying, no, no, no. What's more important to me is I'd rather have a good solid internship because that gives me something to talk about in interviews. That's how I said that how they plan to launch their professional career is really, really your job. If you have absolutely no experience at all in, in whatever your field is,- it is and can be daunting and scary. Carey (14:21): Um, so wow, that's super helpful. That really kinda sets, like I said, sets the table and as to why and on both sides. So now as a business owner might say or an or a management high up management, I think this sounds like a great idea. I might want to hire an intern. So a lot of business owners and leaders might just be tempted to like slap a job ad out there without a plan. A great plan always, of course, sets up the chances for the best success. We all know, but it's not always done in practice. So like where should we start? Maybe can you kind of break out some of the steps and considerations? Jennifer Osbon (14:59): Yeah, yeah! The first thing I feel like you really need to do is set your goal and come up with what you want that intern to do and it needs to be an actual, you know, they don't just show up knowing what to do or how to add value in your business. They need well-defined responsibilities, they need deliverables. You need to set expectations just like you would for a full time employee, right? Honestly, the less time you plan, the less time you spend planning your internship roles and responsibilities, the more you can expect that they're going to get on your nerves or be a burden. These are people that are going to show up to your office every single day and they can only bring you coffee once or twice. So they need to have something to do and, and if you don't plan it out and you don't really design that experience, then you just feel like, oh, this person's always here. Just remember that's your fault. It's not theirs. Right? You're bringing them in for a reason. The first one really, really lay out what you want that person to accomplish. Oftentimes the way that you can do that is you can say, okay, here's a specific role. Maybe if it's a social media coordinator role, then they will have responsibility for creating certain posts or managing your editorial calendar or they have goals for what kind of engagement you're trying to accomplish, to see that driven up over some period of time. You can kind of set your goals based on what you're trying to accomplish, but if you lay it out, it's really clear for both you and them as to what success looks like. Right? Another thing that's really to do with interns is to let them rotate through your business. So you know, if your social component is part of a larger marketing effort and you've got some event marketing or you've got some traditional marketing or should the have different kinds of things going on, let them rotate through and see how what they do fits into the overall wheel of what you're doing doing. Then it's always a good idea to say, Hey, come with me to this meeting. And literally just put them in there and say, don't say anything, but sit here, just listen and see what's going on. It's always a good idea to do things like that with them. Sometimes an internship program, we'll have a capstone project where they tell the student, okay, here's what you'll be doing on the day to day, but also longterm you're going to be working on an over, you know, I want you to present at the end of the semester or however long the internship program is. I want you to present this. And they'll give you, you know, the students a case study or they'll say, make a case study out of what you're doing and give us feedback at the end. So the student has a longer term thing as opposed to just daily tasks and those, yeah, those all make really, really good internships. Another thing that I always advise is to get to, so it's a sediment intern program coordinator or make sure every intern that you have has an assigned buddy. Um, because again, they're not going to speak up like a full time employee would, if there's a problem, sometimes they're a little shy about bringing problems forward. So, or they're confused and they might not feel like maybe asking a question. They need it. They need that person that they can go to that they feel comfortable with asking whatever they need to ask or getting whatever answer or maybe they're getting push back in some area of the organization and they don't feel like they can, you know, take that on head on. They need to have that person that they can go to. So really having that program coordinator or a buddy or whoever is super important. And then, just making, making their development one of your priorities right? Making their development as a, you know, they're going from student to professional. Anything you can do to help life coach them in to where they need to eventually wind up is, is always is always good. Carey (19:07): Oh, those are fantastic tips and giving people bullets and things so that as they're writing out their plan, they can build those components in there. Jennifer Osbon (19:17): We also have pitfalls to avoid. One thing to remember with interns is they really are young. So if it's part of your company culture to go out and grab a drink after work, just realize they may not be 21. And what you don't want to do, put them in a position where they could feel pressured to drink. I mean, it just, it gets awkward for everybody. So if that's part of your culture, make sure that you let the student understand, we want you to come, we'd love you to be a part of this, but don't feel pressured to partake if that's not your thing. Because again, they're still very impressionable young people. Carey (20:01): Yeah, great point. I wouldn't have even gone there, but my husband and I were going by this road that leads to the Greenway here. It's for him to run on. And we noticed this brewery tucked away in a in a business community and we're like, we didn't even know that was there. And there are people inside. Um, I don't know if they serve anything besides beer, but maybe don't go there haha Jennifer Osbon (20:26): Exactly. The fact that they're young and, and speaking up for things like this can be awkward because they want to please so badly. That's their thing is that they want this to be a great experience for you and they're trying as hard as they can. So you just want to respect and maybe not put them in difficult situations. Carey (20:46): Yes. Very respectful. So looking ahead as we plan, should companies think and expect to hire one intern and then sort of see how it works out? Or what are some like alternative plans to what you referenced as like that rolling internship program? Jennifer Osbon (21:06): So, so one thing that you can do, I think you definitely need to start with with one cycle and see how it goes and see how it fits within your company. But, but let's say that you've done that and you you've had a good experience and you're like, you know what? I really could see having interns as a part of how we grow and how we deliver the work that we do for our business. A rolling internship simply means that you're continuously rotating interns each semester. So it's not just a summer long program, but every single semester. So there are students that would say, I'm going to take fall off - just work and do an internship. So that's their thing is they would not go to class, they would go to work for you, in the fall, or some would choose to do it in the spring, when spring term starts, you know, January, right after the New Year. Then some would do it in Summer. If you do a rolling one each semester you're planning to bring in new interns and say goodbye to the old. Ideally you would want to have some sort of a two week overlap so that you're not spending all of your time training and retraining people. But yet part of that is that you can actually assign permanent duties to these interns. And it's a way of having interns fill a role as opposed to hiring a full time person. Yeah. I mean it's been proven that that turnover is expensive. Jennifer Osbon (22:38): And in this situation, you're literally planning turnover, right? You're planning to have three people per year, but it may be worth it if you're doing your part to help students launch their career and you've got a really good business function that they're actually able to deliver for you. Then it could be very much a win win situation if that's how you wanted to approach it. You just tell students, you're like, okay, here is going to be a fall internship, but I need you to be around the first two weeks to make sure that we've trained in the new person or be available for questions and have kind of a little bit of an overlap or to spring internship. But I need you to start before this semester so that we can, you know make sure those overlaps happen. But that means that you're always in a cycle of reviewing resumes, interviewing and bringing in new people. But at the same time, every once in a while you find a real, a real diamond in there that you want to hire full time. Carey (23:42): Yeah. Wow. That's inspiring and you'd get real pretty good at it, you know, and comfortable with that process and meeting a lot of different people and maybe one intern would recommend another. So, then that also allows for the transparency in the expectations with the timeline. I think that's really helpful to everyone and that'll be fine. Moving on. So what, what are some ways that you see companies recruiting interns? How are they finding people or how should business leaders think about where to go to find Intern candidates? Speaker 2 (24:13): Well, finding them is actually not that hard. Finding students is not that hard. You look to your local university, right? Whichever university of choice that you would like to, to, to recruit from. Every single one of them will have a career services department. You also can reach not just university-wide but to the college. So you could go to the journalism school or the business school. You go directly to the college, or Terry college of business. Even directly to the department, the marketing department or a professor who teaches a class that's designed to build the exact skills you're looking for in your internship, whether that be sales or digital marketing or, or anything else, finding the students isn't that hard. You just look to the school from which you want to recruit, design a really, really good internship experience for the students and then build a relationship with the school and you'll have an endless supply of interns to help you grow your business. And it becomes repetitive and it just becomes- it actually becomes an enjoyable experience for sure. Carey (25:21): Yeah, very rewarding. I didn't even know that. Is there, is there like boards, digital boards that they're posted on or anything like that? Or is it more just kind of like them knowing the opportunity of the contact at the university and then them knowing the students and kind of putting them together? Like matchmakers? Jennifer Osbon (25:38): Every university will have a career services department at the university with a website specifically where you can post internships within that year. You are able to go in and upload a job description and you say, is it paid or unpaid? Spell out what kind of skills are you looking for? All of that kind of thing. And students search those pretty regularly. Also, you know, specifically in our department, I get hit up all the time, right? So I spend a lot of time with the business community trying to make sure that what I'm teaching in the classroom translates to the skills they need in the workforce. And so they'll call me directly. And they'll say, Hey, I'm looking for this and for that. And we have, we literally will send an email every single week. We also have opportunities at the college level for employer of the day. And so you're welcome to come up and stand and kind of our student area for the business school. And you can kind of, literally do speed interviews, collect resumes and that kind of thing. So, really building a relationship with the college who can then funnel the students to you is the one thing. Um, and then just be aware of this: students definitely talk about their internship experience and you wind up building a reputation as a good or bad intern opportunity. The spiral happens and the best students are competing for them and the bad ones are spiraling down and no one wants to work for those companies. Carey (27:23): Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're texting each other too! Jennifer Osbon (27:33): I guess the worst thing is when a student says, I was there for three months and they never let me do anything. So definitely right now, form an internship experience, you know, if you design a holistic and valuable experience, I promise that'll pay off for both you and for the intern. Carey (28:16): Yes. Well that's a great note to end on. I learned so much. I hope you all did too. Jennifer - Pofessor Osbon, thank you so much for being with us. This is just amazing. Jennifer Osbon (28:16): Thank you so much for having me. Carey (28:16): Okay. Have a great day, everybody! Thanks for listening to the all social ya'll podcast. For free resources and materials, head over to all social, y'all dot com that's all social Y a L L.com. Also, we'd love to hear from you, what subject areas would you like to hear about in future episodes? You can share that with us by dropping me a comment on our website or in Instagram at all. Social, y'all.  

AfterBirth, A Fourth and More Trimester Support Group: 2/18/20 MORE SEX TALK!!! With gritty deets and whats up. Yikes, I sound like I'm repping a hotline. Which I'm not. But have no issue with. Oh, and body issues, sensitivities, the cycle of yes no yes while being pregnant and postpartum. Links mentioned in today's show are: Pussy Massage Video! w/Adina Rivers BEST EPISODE EVER! The Pleasure is Ours, Episode 3 on GoopLab Netflix with Betty Dodson And MamaD mentioned a steamer on IG https://www.instagram.com/my.yoniverse/, https://www.instagram.com/steamychick/ are a couple of cool ones. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Katelin recorded a new intro for us, you can hear that theatre background in her clear work, and she reminds us about the PSI warmline, Call the PSI HelpLine at 1-800-944-4773(4PPD) Text Support: send a message to their Helpline at 503-894-9453 Dr.B gives us some stats and additional resources. https://drblythetwosisters.com/online-resources/ Finding this podcast helpful? Share the love if you can and become a show supporter, 50 peeps at 99 cents will help us tremendously https://anchor.fm/pcbc/support Have a question? Send us a note from the Preggers.rocks website or use the Anchor feature to ask us. https://anchor.fm/pcbc/message Join us in our FB group~ https://www.facebook.com/groups/PCBCAfterBirth/ Our YouTube channel, How to Become a Midwife https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLo83nMq3sS9NQUKqQjVBblZ1HfkSHOcbB Text reminders so you can join us LIVE, alternating Tuesdays at 11 am central right here https://tapit.us/jdoa5 As always, you can find us at www.Preggers.rocks in Houston Texas. Alert ~ Be wary, we are a little sweary. Get your earbuds if you are concerned about tender ears and sensibilities. #postartumdepression #houston #love #preggerscanbechoosers #houston #parenting #thisiswhathealinglookslike #AfterBirth #4thtrimester #postpartum #doula #love #pregnancy #childbirtheducation #polyamory #lovelanguages #sextoys #midwife #SEX #DTF #sexworkisrealwork --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/pcbc/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/pcbc/support

Hi everyone, and thank you for tuning in to another episode of the We Make Books Podcast - A podcast about writing, publishing, and everything in between! This week we’re talking about awesome and sometimes scary world of social media.  Here’s the thing: Rekka is a pro and Kaelyn is terrified of it, so you, kind listener get to hear it from both sides.  Social media can be a very important tool in your publishing arsenal but it’s also a really intimidating place, especially if you’re new.  This week, we’re talking about ups and down of social media, what to keep an eye out for, how to be a good online citizen, and how to manage both your expectations and stress. We Make Books is hosted by Rekka Jay and Kaelyn Considine; Rekka is a published author and Kaelyn is an editor and together they are going to take you through what goes into getting a book out of your head, on to paper, in to the hands of a publisher, and finally on to book store shelves. We Make Books is a podcast for writers and publishers, by writers and publishers and we want to hear from our listeners! Hit us up on our social media, linked below, and send us your questions, comments, concerns, and the best story you have about cover copy that resulted in reading a very different book from what you thought you were getting.. We hope you enjoy We Make Books! Twitter: @WMBCast  |  @KindofKaelyn  |  @BittyBittyZap Instagram: @WMBCast  Patreon.com/WMBCast     Kaelyn (00:07): Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the, We Make Books podcast, a show about writing, publishing and everything in between. I'm Kaelyn Considine and I am the acquisitions editor for Parvus Press. Rekka (00:16): And I'm Rekka, I write science fiction and fantasy as RJ Theodore. Kaelyn (00:20): And this is a stressful episode for me. Rekka (00:22): We have Kaelyn tucked comfortably under a blanket. We've got to heat her on her. She's wearing comfy clothes. We gave her stuffed animals and hot tea just to try and entice her to even have this conversation. New Speaker (00:36): So we're talking about social media today. Rekka (00:39): Um, we do focus a lot on Twitter because it's probably the place where social media finds you getting yourself most into trouble. And so we had a lot of discussions on pitfalls, warnings, how to be a good citizen of the internet and so on and so forth. And so most of this episode does focus on Twitter, but we touch on a few things that I think are true across all of the social media platform. Kaelyn (01:03): Yeah. And we're kind of on opposite sides of this here because, um, I, I do not enjoy social media. Um, it's a pretty significant source of anxiety for me. I just, it's, you'll hear more about it in the episode. I'm, I'm just not, not a big fan. So, uh, that said, I do recognize the importance of it and you know, the tricks and tools to navigating it. So we talk a lot about that as well in here. Rekka (01:29): So, and I use social media fairly frequently. I don't necessarily tweet every day or put something on Instagram every day. I definitely do not add stuff to Facebook. But yeah, I use Twitter probably the most. I use Instagram second most. Twitter is the easiest one to sort of fall into a habit of just interacting with because even if I don't have anything to say, I can probably find something from a friend that I can retweet. So I am generally active on Twitter. And so while it doesn't necessarily cause me anxiety unless we're having a particularly bad news cycle, which lately, um, but I do find myself opening it as a matter of habit for the dopamine hit of seeing new stuff. Kaelyn (02:11): Yeah. And see, I don't get the dopamine hit. I get the anxiety spike. Rekka (02:15): The cortisol spike. Kaelyn (02:16): I get the cortisol spike. Rekka (02:17): Yeah. So if you get nothing but cortisol spikes, you've got some advice for you and if you are more willing to dive into it, we've just got some general advice and how not to put your foot in it on Twitter. Kaelyn (02:29): Yeah, it's um, look, you know, it's not for everyone and you know, we, we talk about this in this episode and um, but it is an important tool for interacting with communities and Hey, speaking of interacting with communities, Rekka (02:43): yes, we have feedback from someone who left us and left us a really nice review review. Kaelyn (02:50): Uh, lelalime. Rekka (02:51): We're going to assume that's how it's pronounced. Kaelyn (02:54): Lelalime, I like it. Okay. Um, high quality content for those looking to publish. So glad I found this podcast. The distribution episodes are amazing. Thank you. Thank you, Lelalime. Rekka (03:03): And how many stars did we get? New Speaker (03:04): Five stars! Rekka (03:05): Tell me again. I love it. All right, so if you have been enjoying this podcast or if at the end of this episode, perhaps as your first episode, you find that you did enjoy this podcast. We would super appreciate a rating and review because it helps new people find us when they are browsing podcasts in these podcasts. You know, browsers as it turns out. So, um, if you don't think that you're, if you've already left a review, you can still help new people find us by sharing the episode with a friend. If you think it would be something they're interested in - Kaelyn (03:36): On Twitter. Rekka (03:36): On Twitter, maybe. Perhaps. Kaelyn (03:39): So, anyway, speaking of, let's, uh, let's, let's, let's - Rekka (03:43): Let's get this over with for Kaelyn Kaelyn (03:44): Let's just do it. Enjoy everyone. Rekka (03:57): So I've got to tell you, Kaelyn did not want to have this conversation. Kaelyn (04:01): I didn't. Rekka (04:01): She still doesn't. She's only here because it's snowing and she can't go home. Kaelyn (04:07): That's not, okay, first of all, I love snow. So that is like, if we could sit outside and record this in the snow, I'd feel a lot better. Rekka (04:15): Maybe if it were 60 degrees and snowing outside. It's not quite that. Kaelyn (04:19): I see. I don't, I don't know. I don't mind. It's not, it's not terrible. Rekka (04:22): Something about snow feels like it softens the cold a little bit. Kaelyn (04:26): Yeah. Rekka (04:26): But when we're walking through parking lots with it blowing in my face, I was not feeling like it was comfortable. Kaelyn (04:30): Because the thing is that the snow ups the humidity level immediately. So I know that doesn't sound like it's a good thing, but it does actually make it a little bit warmer. Rekka (04:41): Which is weird because cold foggy days feel colder. Kaelyn (04:44): Yes, yes. You know what? That's freezing fog. I'm not one of these fancy weather scientists Rekka, okay? Rekka (04:54): Or weather magicians even. Kaelyn (04:55): Definitely not one of those. Rekka (04:58): But yeah, we're talking about social media today and um, I will, although Kaelyn already tried to get us to talk about snow for an hour instead, Kaelyn (05:05): I look, I had a whole bullet point list of interesting points, fun facts, uh, reasons we should all enjoy snow. It's, I was told no, we're going to talk about Twitter instead. Um, so I will just say a upfront, I, I am not that into social media. Um, those of you who listen to the show regularly who follow us will probably notice I don't interact on Twitter that much. Rekka (05:28): Um, no matter how many times I tag her. Kaelyn (05:30): Social media to be blunt, gives me a lot of anxiety. Um, I just, part of it is my personality. I'm a very private person. Um, I don't put a lot of my personal stuff out into the world. I just don't really do it. Um, also I had a very traumatic experience when I first joined Twitter. Um, so I had avoided Twitter for a very long time and when I came on at they were kind of like, Oh, okay, what's your Twitter handle for your business cards? And I said, I don't have Twitter. And they were like, Kaelyn, you need to get Twitter. I know, I don't, it's fine. No, Kaelyn, you have to have Twitter. Okay, fine. So I created a Twitter - Rekka (06:09): So your Twitter account is not consensual. Kaelyn (06:13): So I created a Twitter account. I went online, I followed my coworkers, a few of our authors at parvus. And then the first one person, person, quote unquote, I found that I wanted to individually follow was uh, the first cat of the newly elected prime minister of New Zealand. And this cat's name was paddles. And paddles was like, poly dactyl had like, you know, says she had like these giant feet and they called her paddles cause it looked like, you know, she had paddles on and I was like, Aw, this is adorable. And tweeting about all these cute little animal things, two days later Paddles died. Rekka (06:49): Rip. Kaelyn (06:49): Paddles got hit by a car and - Rekka (06:53): Keep your cats inside folks. Kaelyn (06:55): That to me was the signal from the universe of Kaelyn, you do not belong on Twitter. Rekka (07:03): If you friend and follow people on Twitter, you will destroy their lives. Kaelyn (07:07): Oh God. You say that. But like I'm genuinely concerned that's going to happen. Anyway. So the whole point is that um, you're actually gonna get some interesting perspective in this episode because Rekka is a prolific social media user and very good at it. I avoid it, only interact when absolutely necessary and even then still sometimes try to avoid that. Rekka (07:30): Yup. Um, so if you feel like Kaelyn about social media, no, but like this is really one of the points that I was going to bring up in this episode. You do not have to be on social media. You really don't. Everyone's going to tell you that you do. Kaelyn (07:47): We've told you a few times that you do. Rekka (07:50): Yeah. But if you're not going to use it, if it causes you mental grief and anxiety, yeah. If it's not an effective tool for you and you don't enjoy interacting on it or it distracts you from your actual work, it's not a tool for you. Delegate it to someone else. If you feel like you must have a Twitter presence and if you say, well, I'm not a big enough author yet to do that, just reserve the username come back later. Kaelyn (08:24): So we keep saying Twitter. Um, Twitter is of course not the only social media out there, but you know, let's not sugarcoat that. It's the most commonly used, especially in writing, Rekka (08:33): I would say in the author sphere. Twitter is big. Um, indie author sphere actually Facebook is pretty fricking big. Kaelyn (08:39): Okay. Rekka (08:39): Um, there are a lot of authors, especially those who came from a background of fanfic that use Tumblr. I would say if you've never seen Tumblr before, like don't even, don't even go there. I go to Tumblr, I'm like, I don't even know what I'm looking like when did this post become other people's replies? Like I don't like it's just, using it - Kaelyn (08:59): Every now and then, I've tried to look on Tumblr and I just don't understand what I'm seeing. Rekka (09:04): Every now and then. I, yeah, I follow a link that someone else's referenced. Um, you know, a friend of the podcast, Alexander Roland, um, has a couple of articles and they live on Tumblr and I've read the articles, but like, as soon as I figure out that I'm no longer reading the article and suddenly I'm reading comments somehow, like I, I just leave because that's not why I'm there. So, um, Tumblr is a whole sphere of like social media biome on its own. And I would not say it's a huge one unless you already exist there as a real person with a background of interacting with people, I don't think you're going to set up a new tumbler as an emerging author and really find footing there. Kaelyn (09:42): It does seem to be an, I would be curious to, there's gotta be statistics on this somewhere, the new users on Tumblr because it seems like there is a large group that got in when it was first a thing and everyone else is like us where we've looked at and go, Nope, Nope. You know what, I'm good. Rekka (10:15): Yeah. I do not need to participate in this. I'm, I don't know why I don't get tumbler because in terms of layout, it reminds me a lot of live journal, which I spent years on, but there's some disconnect in my brain between, and maybe it's because it's too close to live journal. Um, but there's some disconnect in my brain where I just, I look at it and I'm so confused. Um, LiveJournal by the way, not a social media platform you really have to worry about right now. Um, the other one being Facebook and which we touched on real quick and Instagram, Instagram and Instagram is becoming more and more of a medium that people use to communicate. Kaelyn (10:34): But I feel like it doesn't hold conversations as much as Twitter. Rekka (10:36): It does not hold conversations well. Um, without a certain prestige level and paid ads, you can't really provide links so you have to make that one link that you can put in your user profile, really do its work, which we'll get into that too. Um, or actually I'm afraid we won't get into that because I'm afraid we're going to talk mostly about Twitter and I think that's fair guess I, so I'm just going to say, um, for your Instagram, um, any social media profile where you only have one spot to put a link, look into the service link tree for, um, making that link go all the different places you might want it to go. Kaelyn (11:11): Yeah. Um, we are in this going to talk mostly about Twitter for the reasons we just gave. Um, some of these will, some of the things we're going to say of course will apply across the board, but for purposes here, it is really gonna mostly be Twitter. Rekka (11:25): And the reason it's not more Facebook because there's plenty of an audience on Facebook and I think we're all pretty familiar with how it works is because Facebook is very, very intentionally squashing anything but personal pages on people's walls. So in order you're not going to go onto Facebook and find an organic audience that is a thing of the past. You are going to pay for your audience and you're also going to have to pay to make your posts, reach the people who already chose to follow you. So it's really, I mean, Facebook is winning. The house always wins on Facebook and um, so unless you are prepared to spend marketing bucks, like I wouldn't worry about Facebook as a social media platform. Kaelyn (12:08): Yeah. So focus is primarily Twitter here. So let's talk about all the reasons it scares the hell out of me. Rekka (12:15): Yeah. Why don't we start with you. How does this make you feel Kaelyn? Kaelyn (12:20): Not great. Um, you know, as I had said, I, a lot of my reluctance to use Twitter is I don't like putting a lot of my life out there in the world. Rekka (12:33): Okay. So that's one bullet point that I did want to address. Um, you need to be authentic. That doesn't mean you need to bare your whole ass on social media. You can react to things the way that is natural to you as a human being. Like you might in-person or you might interact with someone at a book reading. You still want to, you know, convey your personality in your tweets, but that does not mean you need to tweet about like personal details or your family's health situation or your finances. You do not have to share anything with somebody that you aren't comfortable making part of your public portfolio because that's what you are doing. Kaelyn (13:14): Yeah. And look, I mean people do it definitely. Um, - Rekka (13:18): We are not recommending it. Kaelyn (13:20): Yeah. It's, you know, look, if you know, there's something on your mind that you want to get out there and you have, you know, people online that you've talked to about this stuff, Rekka (13:28): But again, that's that you want to get out there. I'm saying, you know, as an author profile, don't feel that you need to be posting 24 times a day, which means once per hour, which means some pretty great finding fine grain stuff about your life that is either not interesting, not relevant or not anyone's business. And then if you put all that stuff out there about yourself, then there are people who may become obsessed with you and then all that information is in their hands to do with us. They will. And they may not become obsessed with you for good reasons. Misery or worse. Kaelyn (14:04): Yeah. And it's, you have to remember that anything you put out there, anyone can see, unless you have some very locked down sort of account things. Rekka (14:16): There are twitter profiles where the profile itself is locked. But then that's not doing the social media thing. Kaelyn (14:20): Yeah, exactly. So then you're kind of defeating the purpose of what you had meant to do to begin with. Rekka (14:27): On Facebook, you can choose whether a post is global or just your friends or private or just a group of friends that you've set up. But Twitter, it's account level locked down or not now. Kaelyn (14:37): So on that note, I will say that another thing I found very intimidating that Twitter is, I barely knew how it worked. I understood the premise of it. Do you know how long it took me to figure out how to reply to a tweet rather than retweet it? It was embarrassing. Rekka (14:53): You know, it's funny is, um, there's a movie called Chef starring John Favreau, and if you haven't seen the movie, I do recommend it. And the premise of the movie is kicked off by him starting an accidental Twitter war with a food critic, restaurant critic, because he did not understand that he was not sending him direct messages and he, speaking of being bare ass on the internet, showed his whole ass to the internet and, um, became infamous rather than famous. And eventually it all worked out for him because it's Hollywood. But, um, you know, that's, that's not really a good look. So be sure that you understand as can suggest how to use the technology so that you're not inadvertently doing things that you don't realize you are. Kaelyn (15:50): That's the thing is that I, I've never been a very online person. Um, I, when Facebook became a thing when I was in college and this was, you know, if there's any of our younger listeners out there, you used to need an email address that ended in.edu to sign up for Facebook. What they were doing was they were adding certain colleges and universities at a time. It was just their way to onboard everyone, so it wasn't like a deluge of users. So when my university got Facebook, it still took me over a year and a half to sign up for it. I just was not interested in it. I have never been someone who really lives and exists online. And to that end, I don't know a lot of the lingo and the terms and etiquette even, and it's very scary because I know they exist. I just don't know what they are. And the last thing I want to do is go online and put my foot in my mouth. Rekka (16:44): Right. And if that is something that you feel like is more likely to happen than not, maybe just as I said, reserve the username. Maybe you're already using a username for your domain name or on Instagram. I mean like if there is social media that you do use and you are comfortable with, just grab the same name so that you can keep your branding consistent. Um, cause it's a lot easier to say we're WMBcast on Instagram and Twitter than it is to say I'm WMBcast on Twitter and WMBcast147 on Instagram because somebody's got to the name before you bothered to get around and register it. You don't have to use it. They're not going to close the account if you don't use it. Just make sure that you update your email if you change it and your contact information. So later in life when you decide, I do need to be using Twitter as a platform. You can hire a virtual assistant to handle your Twitter, you know, content for you with a, um, with the caveat that that means you are not going to be very authentic on Twitter because someone else will be posting for you, which means you've planned out your posts in advance, which means that's really more of a marketing campaign then you being on Twitter. Kaelyn (17:50): Yeah. And that's um, I think that's another good point to talk about is what you're using Twitter for. Um, you know, I know a lot of people that like that's how they talk to a lot of their friends most of the time, you know, everyone just kinda hangs out - Rekka (18:05): Like big public chat room. Kaelyn (18:06): Yeah. Everyone just kinda hangs out on Twitter. Um, for some people it is more of a marketing type thing, um, or it's just sort of a like, Hey, I'm out there, here's some stuff that's going on. But it's not really a Twitter about them. It's about their work. Rekka (18:21): Which is fine and that's the way you use it. And if someone follows you, seeing that content and they are comfortable following, you know, they don't unfollow you because they realize like, like you're not describing your Disney vacation to them, then that's fine. And you can even set it up so that you don't have to post that content yourself. Like if you send out a newsletter through your mailing list, you can have, um, usually the mailing list service will cross-post for you to social media. So if you attach it to a Facebook page and you've set it up to attach to a Twitter account, it will automatically send that out to the list and it'll use whatever image you used as the main graphic in the email. And then content goes up on Twitter without you having to think about it. Um, you know, just turn on your notifications so you know, if you get a mention cause somebody replied to it or something. Um, the other thing is that if you post a blog post, say you're comfortable using your WordPress website to add blog content, you can also cross post that content and have it published to Twitter or Facebook when the post publishes. And then you are adding content to Twitter without ever having to engage in the Twitter sphere of community. Kaelyn (19:30): Now let's say you do really want to engage in the Twitter sphere of community. Maybe you're like in a few writing groups and everyone's like, yeah, you know, there's this ongoing thread, or there's this great group of people you should interact with them. You know, just introduce yourself. How do you, how do you recommend kind of dipping your toe in that water? Rekka (19:47): Well, okay, so say you've already set up your account, we're just going to assume that you're starting with an account that you don't use much, but someone's like invited you over. Well that's great because now you have a friend that you can follow and that friend will follow you back. And if you say like, Hey, I'm new to Twitter, but you know, I realize there are a lot of great people here, so I'm looking for writers and artists or whoever, you know, whatever type of people, readers to follow and follow me back. Then maybe that friend who invited you will retweet that and then their entire list is exposed to that. And then maybe you get a whole bunch of automatic, not automatic as in automated, but like people who see that and are like, yeah, fine, I'll follow you. If so-and-so likes you, I'll follow you. So that's one way to start building your audience. Um, you, when you set up Twitter, it starts asking you questions about yourself and what your interests are and I think it starts suggesting you to other people with similar interests. Kaelyn (20:41): So yeah, if you go to, actually this is a fun statistic about me. Um, if you look at the people that I follow there's a couple hundred of them, a 4% of them are Muppets. I counted. Rekka (20:52): I was going to say, you did the numbers on this. I'm not sure it not a Twitter feed. You know, it's not how many - Kaelyn (20:56): No, I counted 4% of the people I follow on Twitter and Muppets. Rekka (21:01): Okay. So just to be clear, Muppets are good to follow and interact with on Twitter. Kaelyn (21:05): Muppets are great to follow. Rekka (21:06): Sockpuppets or not. Kaelyn (21:08): We don't want sock puppets. Rekka (21:10): Which is to say people who are, um, tweeting on behalf of someone else's agenda. Yes. And we don't want bots, which sadly this is not the future in which we'd be friend the robots. Um, you can usually tell them because they have like a very clearly, sure, I'll take that username sort of username. Um, and you know, then there are real people, real human beings who go on Twitter and behave badly and you're going to want to watch out for them. So everyone who responds to your tweets is not worth giving them a response back. Um, some people are going to very quickly exemplify why the mute and block buttons exist on Twitter. Um, speaking of which, if you are overwhelmed by some of the content that is on Twitter all the time, the mute and block buttons can help you avoid stuff that's either going to upset you or distract you or make you engage in a way that is not what you intended Twitter for. Rekka (22:09): So, um, there are accounts that you can follow that will have links that you can activate that will tie into your Twitter account and block like a whole mess of people for you. So if there's a group you don't like, say trans exclusive radical feminists, you can find an account that will block anybody who's known to behave in accordance with that sort of person. And then you don't even have to think about it later. I mean you might have to block the occasional person you catch on your own, but it if they block someone, like you'll automatically have blocked them. So like groups like that, it's easy to avoid basically. I mean you might eventually, depending on how you tweet, come under there like the tensions. Kaelyn (22:53): But the thing is, anytime you go out into the world, whether it be on your phone, at your desk or actually step out into the world, there is a chance you are going to run into less than pleasant people. Yeah. Um, which is why I don't do any of those things. Rekka (23:15): And Twitter has a lot of them congregating in one spot looking for trouble. Yeah. I'm using search terms. You'll see a lot of folks, uh, who tweet and then a specific word in their tweet will have asterisks in it, in place of some of the letters, which is specifically so that someone searching for that word can't find them and just come in and start raising a ruckus for the sheer joy of making your life miserable. Kaelyn (23:29): Yeah. And see this is, this is another aspect of social media freaking me out. Part of it is that like, I am not afraid of these people. It's not, you know, that I'm, it's more that I don't want to deal with this and I don't understand people that behave this way. And to be frank, I just, I don't have time for it. That said, one of the big anxieties that I have about Twitter is people taking things I say the wrong way. Um, I know me personally that I'm never going to be tweeting anything that I think would offend someone because one, I just don't talk and act that way. And two I tried to make sure that something I'm putting out into the world, especially as a representative of my publishing company, I want to make sure is well received by everyone. I am always very worried that I'm accidentally going to say something that I don't know is going to offend somebody. I'm going to offend someone. Rekka (24:30): The thing to do, to avoid, honestly not offending somebody is probably just to avoid re-tweeting things. Um, you, and this has happened to plenty of celebrities where they have retweeted a message that on the surface sounded pretty good and then they found out that it was very much coated by a political group for and against very specific people. So, um, if you are not fully aware of the context of the subject matter, it might be safer for you to not retweet or do you educate yourself or make sure you read the whole thread and maybe read the comments and see what kind of, I mean it's kind of like there's a phrase which is good, good advice, never read the comments, never read the comments here. But if you are considering re tweeting at, you might want to be aware of how inflammatory it is and in which directions you're going to see people you know, inflamed in both directions on a specifically troublesome tweet. And this is one of those things where you do have to decide and it's, it has a lot to do with how you want to present yourself to the world. Do you want to be an activist and tweet things that have messages that mean a lot to you or um, support causes that you care about? Or do you want to frankly play it safe and maybe not ever retweet anything except you know, a new book launch announcement from a of author friend or from your publishing house of a, you know, a sibling from your publishing house. Kaelyn (25:57): I'm going to jump in here real quick and say that if you don't want to do the first one, you don't have to and don't let anyone make you feel like you do. Rekka (26:06): Right. Kaelyn (26:07): There, you will absolutely run into people that say, well, you support this. Why don't you get more involved in the conversation? And if the answer is I don't want to or I don't have the energy to or mentally, it's not good for me, that is a completely legitimate reason. And you will find a lot of very die hard people on Twitter for a cause that they care about or - Rekka (26:31): They're passionate. Kaelyn (26:31): A passionate and argument that they're passionate about. That's great that they can do that. It is soul draining for some people. Rekka (26:40): And for people who work multiple plus their writing and have families or other responsibilities that may really just tap them out. So if you choose to be an activist on social media, absolutely that's your call, but be understanding of someone else chooses not to be., Kaelyn (26:58): Never feel pressured to participate in something you don't have to. Rekka (27:03): However, one thing that you can do to make more friends on Twitter, especially in the writing industry or the writing sphere, is to support your friends and fellows that you know and love. That's a great thing. Um, so if they're announcing a new book or they announced that they've just signed for a book sale, a, if they announce a, you know, a a book event where they're going to be at a bookstore or something like that, absolutely. Feel free to retweet that. They'll appreciate it and they might retweet your next announcement. Um, and that's just being a good citizen, you know, that's, you know, not doing it so that someday they do it for you, but you know, do it because you're part of the community. And that's what people who are in communities do is lift each other up. Kaelyn (27:45): Yeah, exactly. Just, you know, that when somebody's got something, they're trying to get out into the world, the more people that help them get it out there, the more people will see it. Rekka (27:52): Yeah. Kaelyn (27:52): Um, you know, it's just as you said, being a good being a Twitter citizen. Rekka (28:17): Yeah. Um, something else about being a good Twitter citizen is when you see somebody posting about a health issue, it is not your job to give them medical advice on Twitter. And I see that so often and um, it really, it's upsetting to the person who was letting you know that, you know, they were in a bad place and it doesn't put them in a better place. Chances are they've heard that advice before and they've already weighed and measured it. There's a lot of, I think people putting personal things out there that aren't looking to you to solve it for them, but everyone's got the problem solved in their head and they feel the need to comment and say, you should do this. Kaelyn (28:35): You know, they're looking for a friendly, Hey, hang tough. We love you. Rekka (29:06): You know, you'll get through this. I'm thinking of, let me know if there's anything I can do for you. Sending all our love, stuff like that. Like that's, that's the kind of support that you give on on Twitter. You don't give medical advice, send Twitter, your lawyer would not appreciate that. Um, so yeah, I mean that's one of the spaces where like it's, it's OK to engage but don't try to, I don't want to say manipulate, but don't try to guide that person to do anything as a result. Like they're sharing it with you. Hey, I'm having a rough time because of X, Y and Z medical condition or X, Y and Z financial situation or something like that. Um, but there are times when you really do not want to engage for reasons that would terrify Kaelyn and I'm talking about, um, mostly own voices conversations because if that own voice is not your own voice, that's not a place for you to talk. Now, it might be a great place for you to learn by just following along and being aware of what people are talking about. If it's, especially if it's something that you're interested in, especially if representation matters to you and your stories and you want to represent people who aren't always of your exact personality background, et cetera. Um, but don't engage, you know, there's, there have been conversations recently from specific marginalized groups where other people are stepping in and telling those marginalized people how they should be feeling right now. And that's not good. And that's a great way to get yourself blacklisted from several of these, um, these social circles. Kaelyn (30:17): Yeah. I mean, without going into too many specific examples, um, one thing, and this is, this results in me being underactive on Twitter, but I think it's better that way, is be conscious of who you're talking to and who you're engaging with. Um, you are going to come across groups of people that you would not normally find in groups if you were just at a party because everyone can kind of join together and be in the same place. So knowing that we're not here necessarily to talk to you just because this has happening on a public forum. Rekka (30:50): Just because you can see the post doesn't mean I'm talking like making eye contact with you. Kaelyn (30:54): Exactly. Yeah. Um, and being conscious and being mindful of that I think is very important. Rekka (31:00): And no, you know, whether you, if you're watching a conversation, you're like, Oh, well it's public, so I guess I can engage. I can add my 2 cents. Maybe if you think about it, - Kaelyn (31:09): Like, I mean, yes you can, but should you? Rekka (31:12): Yeah. You're, you're going to find yourself slapped back pretty fast if you try to engage in a conversation that is clearly not about or for you. Kaelyn (31:26): So now let's say you make a faux pas. Let's say youput your foot in your mouth, you stick your nose into a conversation that you really did not have much of a place taking part in. Rekka (31:35): As soon as you realize that - Kaelyn (31:36): Things happen. New Speaker (31:37): Yup. Kaelyn (31:37): Yup. Rekka (31:38): Um, as soon as you realize it, you let it, especially if someone comments to you and says, um, you know, for whatever reason, we don't appreciate you sticking your nose in. I'm sure it won't be phrased quite like that. Um, you can recognize that, you know, you overstepped your bounds by replying and saying, I, you know, apologize, that was none of my business and I didn't understand the full, I mean, if you didn't, but basically I, you recognize it and you admit it, but you don't make the whole conversation about you and how will you been called out and how you feel bad about it. Like just apologize and back the hell away. Kaelyn (32:19): Yeah. Now and that said. Um, if someone comes back at you and is, I'll, I'll even say if they're rude or they're unnecessarily nasty about it, um, sucks. Just deal with it. Rekka (32:31): Yeah. Kaelyn (32:31): Because you know, what, if the - Rekka (32:32): Don't keep engaging with them, the only thing you can do is let it go. And you know, there may be very full throttle and - ramifications of you making one tiny mistake or you know, just being overbearing in a conversation that you didn't belong in any way that may just kind of haunt you for awhile, but just deal with it. You know, if you agree that you were wrong in doing it and maybe even if you don't, especially if it's, you know, other people who are marginalized telling you that you've stuck your foot in it, um, just accept that that's, that's how it went and be more careful next time. Kaelyn (33:07): Yeah. It's um, don't it, it's not about you at that point. Um, the other thing that I will say is that there is, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that happen now that people involved with or circulating around that group be it, you know, sports writing, um, movies, culture, whatever your interest are. People feel the need to comment on it to say, I am appalled by this or I stand up for this thing. You don't have to have a statement on everything that happens from, I've read things on Twitter where people are going, I know it took me a week to acknowledge the controversy surrounding such and such an I just need to state that I am firmly opposed to what that person said. I do not in any way support anything they believe. Rekka (34:04): Like you never provided evidence that you would, no one thought you would need to say that. Kaelyn (34:06): Yeah, no one ever would think that you would. And also it's not like, you know, if it's a celebrity - Rekka (34:11): And in a week, everyone's forgotten. Kaelyn (34:11): It's not like you know this person. It's not like they're a friend of yours that you kind of feel like you are like, Oh God, I hope they don't think that about me too. You don't need to comment on everything. Um, if you're worried about where people might think that you stand on something, then may - you probably need better friends Rekka (34:34): Or you need to be more clear about where you stand. If it's important for people to know that the example I gave earlier of someone of celebrity re-tweeting something that they didn't fully understand the context of. Um, the solution was a couple of hours later or as soon as they were, it was pointed out to them. I don't really, I saw it after the fact so I didn't really see how long it took, but they said, I apologize for my last retweet. I did not realize that that was about that and I should have been more careful about re-tweeting the message on the surface. It seemed like something I agreed with having learned what it really meant. I do not agree with that and done you and I saw that person as it celebrity celebrated for correcting their mistake and moving on. You be careful about it and you moved, they were not defensive. They did not make excuses for themselves. They apologize directly and they were clear about what their actual stance was. Kaelyn (35:24): Now that said, you don't need to, you know, wear a hair shirt and whip yourself in, you know, the middle of the town. That's, Rekka (35:33): But that's, that's exactly it. Punishing yourself publicly is, is making it about you. Kaelyn (35:39): That's exactly what I'm saying. So like if you're not, apologizing and moving on is one thing, publicly flogging yourself is not helpful to anyone. Rekka (35:50): And making a show of your suffering and your repentance is, is making it about you when you hurt someone else. And this should be about you apologizing to them and letting them heal. Not constantly shoving it under their nose. Kaelyn (36:03): Yeah. So, you know, it's, and like I said, I, you know, I just get very freaked out by this. I'm not a big social media user. Um, I also, you know, just in my manners speaking and things like, I'm worried that things that I say could be misconstrued. I'm also worried there are people out there who will look to misconstrue them and here's the thing, there are. Rekka (36:26): And you can't beat them. Kaelyn (36:27): Yeah. Rekka (36:27): They, if they want to apply context to it, that you didn't put it in there and they can convince other people it's there. There's not much you can do about it. You can, if it really starts to blow up, you know, not respond to them, not retweet their thing, just say like look posts to clarification posts to clarification and try to not engage with everybody who, who's coming at you because that one person sent their, you know, their crowd after you. So okay. I, to be fair to the people who were just considering signing up for Twitter and now they've listened to all this and they're like, Whoa. Kaelyn (37:02): They're like, Kaelyn's right, stay the hell away. Rekka (37:05): What is going on Twitter? Um, I just wanted to market some books. So let's get back to like using Twitter as a book marketing plan. Kaelyn (37:13): There are a lot of wonderful, supportive kind people on Twitter and they can help you with your books. Rekka (37:22): However, if your Twitter account is clearly just you reposting or even using a third party like posting tool to just post, buy my books, buy my books, buy my books, then you are going to come off just as much as a used car salesman as you might worry, you will. That's why we say be authentic on Twitter. Just a couple conversational things in between, you know, Hey, I have a book coming out. Don't post three times a day that you have a book coming out. I mean, on the day of, if you are normally a active, an active Twitter user and you normally engage in conversation, chances are you're going to have friends re-tweeting your first book announcement posts throughout the day and you don't need to post it three times. When you post to Twitter, that post goes to the people who follow you. If you promote it at my go to more people, but don't do that. It doesn't, there's no reason. Um, a lot of, uh, independent authors have experimented with Twitter ads and they have found that there's no advantage to spending money to promote your tweets. Kaelyn (38:23): I actually go out of my way to avoid things that. Rekka (38:25): Any time an ad, a promoted tweet comes up on my feet, I block the user. So like that's my behavior as a, as a user of Twitter, not as somebody like trying to, you know, teach them a lesson or anything like that. And just like, I don't want to see that ad loads every time I open Twitter. So your Twitter list, the people who have been kind enough to follow you or follow you back will see your post. Now if they don't check Twitter frequently throughout the day and they also don't scroll all the way back or view their Twitter feed in the right order as opposed to like Twitter's decision on how it, what order it should be displayed in, which is a thing. Rekka (39:03): And you know, you just have to look into that. Um, so someone might miss it if they're on your list. So in your mind you're saying like, well, if I post a three times a day, then I should catch everyone on my list, whether they check in the morning at lunch or in the afternoon. But the fact is, I think people take about five minutes to scroll back through Twitter as far as they feel they need to go. And then we'll check back in at random times during the day. It's not like someone checks before breakfast checks at lunch or checks at dinner. Like Twitter's sort of like a thing that keeps showing up on your screen. Like I didn't even remember opening that. And here I am scrolling through Twitter again. Kaelyn (39:33): Yeah. Rekka (39:33): Those are for regular users who are your audience if you're trying to use Twitter to market your books. So those users are going to see your posts all three times and they're going to start getting irritated about it, especially if that's all your content. Um, I have seen in the past, people recommend using the third party apps I mentioned earlier, like HootSweet there's a couple like that, um, to set up content that rotates through and like you tell it, Oh, post four times a day from this list of posts and then when you get to the end, repeat it back, guess what? You can smell those. It's very obvious and I don't like them. I end up muting or blocking the people who use them because they're not engaging in any other real meaningful way. They're just trained to use it to make it look like they are so that when their book promotion posts come up, you don't feel like they're abusing the system. Do the thing where like your real new stuff comes out. Like from your mailing list or your website blog posts, those can go to Twitter. Kaelyn (40:31): Yup. Rekka (40:32): But if you are going to get in a cycle where you're repeating your content because you feel like that's the way to expose your content, like your, you're not thinking about Twitter, the way people that you're trying to reach on Twitter are using Twitter. Kaelyn (40:43): Yeah. So to kind of, you know, in, in summary, in conclusion, um, I kind of at the beginning of every year sort of make a little resolution myself that I'm going to be better at Twitter. So if you want to try and interact with me on Twitter, I promise I will try to be, Rekka (40:58): See this is like Kaelyn saying I'm going to try to be better at the violin, but Kaelyn doesn't own a violin or take violin lessons. Kaelyn (41:05): Actually that's not true. I do own a violin and I took violin. Rekka (41:07): Well, she has a Twitter account but she's not using it. She's not practicing and she doesn't do her scales. Kaelyn (41:15): Yeah. Um, no, but you know, it is something that I kind of know that I need to be better at this. Um, it's, I don't want to call it an unpleasant reality of my job because I don't think of it that way, but it is more of something I should do rather than something I enjoy doing. And maybe eventually I will just expose myself enough that I get more comfortable doing it. And I think that's what has to happen a lot of times if you're a little nervous. So if you ever - Rekka (41:34): My advice to Kaelyn. Kaelyn (41:48): try to interact with me on Twitter, I promise I will try to interact and it'll be, it'll be therapy for me. Exposure therapy. Rekka (41:57): So my, my advice to Kaelyn and I'll tell it to her here so that you can hear it, is just avoid sarcasm. Kaelyn (42:05): Which I'm not good at. Rekka (42:07): I know, I know that. So that is primary advice, number one, you are writing flat text into a flat machine. Even the best choice of emojis to pair with your words so that people know it's sarcasm. You will still find people who misconstrue words. And since that is what Kaelyn is trying to avoid. Kaelyn (42:24): I've just solved it. I'm only going to tweet an emojis from now on and then everyone can make of them what they want. Rekka (42:26): Um, and be aware of context. So like that the celebrity who happened to retweet something that was actually for um, in supportive group, he did not support and his fan base called them out on it. Like just maybe be more aware of what you're re tweeting and it's, it's troublesome because in this case they did sound like good words on the surface. Kaelyn (42:52): Here's my Twitter advice. Stick with pictures of cute animals. Rekka (42:56): There are lots of accounts out there that you can fill your Twitter feed with such goodness. Kaelyn (43:02): One of my favorite ones I follow is just called In Otter News and you know what it is? It's otters. Rekka (43:08): I think there's an account called hourly wolves, something like that. New Speaker (43:10): Yeah, Fox Fox one. Yeah. So, I mean really most of the people that I follow on Twitter are Muppets and animals. Rekka (43:17): Which is your safety net because if you mute everyone but them, Kaelyn (43:24): Then Twitter is a beautiful place. Rekka (43:25): Twitter is not upsetting. Kaelyn (43:27): So yeah, if you just want to be tweeting things and you're not really, you're like, Oh I don't know. Just like if you've got a pet, just take pictures of your pet and put them online. I love looking at people's pets. Rekka (43:35): Just watch out for if you're posting photos for reflective surfaces and what they show cause you know, that's the whole thing. Um, especially for Instagram since we are talking about all the social media, but I know we focused on Twitter, but Instagram, um, the content you choose is needs to be interesting but also friendly and not look all staged all the time. Um, which is the best advice I can give you the best Instagram account that I was going to send you to for somebody who seems to have a really engaged following and everything like that I realized is Victoria Schwab. And she has a really engaged following, cause she already has a huge following anyway and they're going to follow her wherever she goes. Rekka (44:10): So the, the choice of Instagram account wasn't necessarily, um, you know, better or worse than also being on Twitter. But, um, I do like the photos she posts in so far as like author slice of life content. She doesn't get personal, but they're always semi book related, but not specific to her book launches, although some of them are because got lots of stuff to promote all the time because everything's happening for her right now. So, um, but yeah, be aware of the context. Be aware if, you know, if you are sharing pet photos, if you are sharing, um, you know, little bits of your life, just make sure that you're comfortable with them being out there in the public. I think count to 10 before you post anything critical. Kaelyn (44:53): Yep. Rekka (44:53): Um, watch your jokes. You know, you might think something's funny, but it's actually based on, you know, a long history of, you know, putting other people down. Um, don't punch down, punch up and you know, if any of this makes you uncomfortable and you didn't really want to go on Twitter in the first place, like here's your permission slip. You don't have to. Kaelyn (45:16): Um, you know, I know we talk about social media a lot and being important and by the way, not wanting to go on Twitter is not the same as not wanting to have a website. Rekka (45:22): Right, you should have a website but freaking website, no excuses. You don't need to, it doesn't need to be big or beautiful or have exclusive content. You just need to have a presence where someone can go find you. Kaelyn (45:34): Here is one thing I, this will be my parting thought when in life, but especially online. Remember and understand that you do not owe anyone your time or attention. So if people are tagging you in things, DM-ing, you, um, you know, trying to - Rekka (45:56): The nice thing is you can lock down your DMs and not accept any. Kaelyn (45:58): You can also lock down that people cannot tag you in things if you really don't like, but - Rekka (46:05): Or just turn off your notifications, let them tag you, but not have to have it ping in your ear. Kaelyn (46:11): Yeah. But even if you don't do that, you don't owe anyone your time and attention. So if it's getting stressful for you or if you just don't want to talk to that particular person, you don't even need to reply to them and say, Hey, I don't want to talk to you. So yeah. Rekka (46:27): And so you're going to meet people in your life who will tell you, you must have a Twitter account and we're not going to publish your book unless you have 500,000 Twitter followers. Those two statements are just not realistic and they're not fair. And they're putting a lot of onus on you as an author to go beyond the role of being the one who writes the books and become part of the marketing team. You will be part of the marketing team even if you don't go on Twitter. Kaelyn (46:51): Yeah. So you know, just be happy and be safe out there. It's parts of it can be scary, but for the most part you're going to find, you know, good people that can be helpful and kind and - Rekka (47:05): Yeah, you just be the same. Kaelyn (47:07): Yup. So we'll, we'll leave that there and if you want to interact with us on Twitter - Rekka (47:11): If you're already on Twitter. Once you sign up, make your first friend on Twitter @WMBcast and we will happily be your friend on Twitter. Um, and you know, we're there. Ask us questions, uh, leave us comments there. Uh, do a rating and review on Apple podcasts or Apple iTunes. Um, we've had a couple of new ones lately and we really appreciate it. Everyone's really enjoying the podcast and it makes us feel so good that this is helpful. Hopefully this episode was helpful and not 100% terrifying, although Kaelyn looks like she's going to cry, so we better wrap this up so I can get her a tissue. Kaelyn (47:48): Some more tea. Rekka (47:50): So we are also at WMBcast.com and patreon.com/WMBcast and we will talk to you in two weeks.        

It's rare that I find someone else whose advice on freelancing I really trust. But that's not the case for my guest today. Because it's very easy to take and trust her advice. My guest today is Abbi Perets. She wants moms to know you don’t have to choose between kids and career. She's the coach and mentor moms turn to when they're looking to break into freelance writing and earn great money from home on their own terms. She combines nearly 20 years of experience freelancing for some of the world's biggest companies with first hand knowledge, having five kids of her own, including one with special needs. She understands the unique challenges moms face every day and has created programs specifically tailored to meet those challenges and empower moms all over the world to have it all. And importantly, we talk in this episode all about how to send great pitches, some of the mistakes that people make when pitching, and how you can avoid those mistakes. Welcome back, everyone to another episode of the Advanced Freelancing Podcast. My guest today is one of the few people that I would trust with giving you freelance advice. The list of people I do not trust is way longer. But I am so excited to have Abbi here on the show because she really knows what she's doing. She gives authentic advice. And she's helped a lot of other freelancers, specifically writers, grow their business. I often feel like people ask me, “Oh, have you worked with so and so? What do you think about this person's courses?” And I feel like all too often I'm saying run away. It's so nice to have a couple of people that I actually do trust. So if somebody asked me advice, I'm happy to be like, “Oh, yeah, you need to go learn email sequences from this person.” It's so awesome to be able to have you on the show. We have a lot in common. We think the same with a lot about business stuff, but I'd love for you to give us a brief introduction, who you are, and what you do right now. All About Abbi She runs Successful Freelance Mom. And she is a mom of five kids, including one with special needs. She has worked as a freelance writer for 20 plus years. And today, she still does freelance writing work. And that's something that's really important to her. She still does the work with clients. So she’s not talking about theory that she learned in that work 20 years ago. Today, she teaches moms how to get started in freelance writing. And she has a couple of courses that are very general on how to get started in freelance writing. Then some of that are very specific and geared towards doing a specific offering a specific service, email sequences to course creators, and she loves it. She loves every second of it. Abbi hit on something that's one of my pet peeves too.  And that is somebody who freelanced once 10 years ago or sold one project on Upwork. It's not that they don't have valuable information to share. But I do question whether that's relevant.  We could like just make this like 30 minutes on what we don't like about other people. But I hate to seem that negative, but it's true.  Because what happens is, and Abbi probably sees this with a lot of her core students, by the time someone comes to you, they might have already looked at or purchased something from someone else and been disappointed and it they’re jaded. It crushes me because they're very concerned about working with anyone else again. They have these beliefs or ideas about how things should be or have to be because they heard it from somebody else.  And then it didn't work for them. So there's such a mindset thing, especially when you start about all the confidence that it takes and fake it till you make it and being damaged by one person. My advice...keep looking. I guess my advice on that would just be that you purchased a product a software worked with somebody, bought their course, bought their ebook, and didn't love it, so keep looking. That person is not the only authority. I would even say that if you bought something of mine and it didn't resonate with you, go find somebody else who teaches that might be able to help you. I just think it's so important that listeners know that because that's always been one of my big things, too. I don't feel like I can authentically talk about what it means to freelance today, if I'm not at least doing that. I have several clients, right. It's so cool that Abbi has it set up the same way. And I definitely want to talk about email sequences. But what we're hoping to focus on in this episode is pitching. I'm sure Abbi has seen it. I've seen it. Our clients have seen it. So many pitches are terrible and awful. The sad thing is you can avoid almost all of this. So I asked Abbi to talk about a top two or three things that she sees people doing over and over again that are just wrong. We’re talking wrong on the level of, “Yeah, don't even send the pitch. If you're doing this, just wait until you've got it refined.” “Hi. I’m a freelance writer.” Abbi thinks that a thing that someone teaches on the internet that is wrong, is do not start your pitch with “Hi, I'm Abbi and I'm a freelance writer.”  Because guess what, we know who you are. Because it's 2020, she has email, and it says your name right up there! And you probably say in your subject line something about whatever it is that they're looking for in a writer. You don't need to waste anyone’s time.  She thinks that a lot of people don't realize how much email some of these editors get in an hour, forget about a day. Literally hundreds of emails. They don't have that eight seconds that you've stolen it from them. And in pure resentment, they're just going to click “Delete”. That's it. Exactly. And especially if you're pitching on a platform like Upwork, where the client is soliciting a writer or a graphic designer, it's obvious that if you're replying to the post, you do that thing. So you don't need to recap it. “I’m really good at it.” The other one that drives me crazy is when people say, “I'm a good freelance writer. I'm really good at it.”   I would hope so. Because you shouldn't be in business if you're mediocre or bad. People still put it in there. You should only say things like, “I've been doing this for five years.” if there's some specific reason that the five years really matters.  Because it's not enough! Abbi is right about people having such a limited attention span. And if you put the good stuff about you at the bottom of the email, they’re never gonna get there. They're just going to delete it right away and you lost your chance with that editor or with that potential client. So that's definitely a good one. I totally agree with that. Track your email. Then this is a little admin thing surrounding the pitching, but Abbi always tells her students to track the email that they're sending. And she does this. She did this with everything. First of all, if she’s sending an email to her husband, she wants to know that he opened it and read it so that he can't tell her late, “Oh, I know I was supposed to do that.” Yeah, you did. Because you read the email, cookie. So I saw you open it six times at work. Track everything you sent. Because if you see that people are opening your email and you're never getting response, something about your pitch is not resonating with them. They're not giving you a chance. On the other hand, if you see that it's being opened multiple times, and especially in different locations, then you can tell a pitch is being forwarded around the office, being discussed, maybe in working meetings, that kind of thing. That's a great time to follow up and say, “Are there any Additional questions I can answer for you?” So just an admin thing around emails. It gives you a sense of how your pitch is being received. And if it's being opened at all, if it's being open and never read again, or if it's being open multiple times. Track your email. Getting flagged as spam. That's so good!  Because there's so much information you can get from that. And you don't want to wait until you've sent 40 or 50 pitches and aren't getting any responses. Because I've even seen freelancers who are sending pitches, and for whatever reason, there's something about their email address that's getting them flagged as spam. So it's not that the pitch is bad, but seeing that in the tracking that no one is even opening it. That tells you that there's something wrong there. Maybe your email address doesn't seem professional enough, or it's reading like a solicitation and the spam filter is catching it. So there's a chance to fix some stuff there. Email Tracking Software I know that HubSpot allows you to track up to 200 notifications. So I think that's every time someone opens an email per month for free. I know about mail track as another tracking tool. What do you recommend that freelancers use for tracking? Abbi has been using Streak which is a free Google Chrome extension. It works with Gmail. And so Streak has a paid version. You don't need the paid version. The paid version is for really a team of people who are doing multiple project management type tasks. The free version is unlimited in how many emails you can track per month and whatever. And it is robust! So for Abbi, it works exceptionally well.  She uses it herself. And she recommends it to her students.  She loves it.  And there's nothing like Mailtrack. She thinks it puts those little track my mail check at the bottom of every message. So Streak has nothing like that. It's not infallible, but nothing is and it's really, really good for what you need. I can't think of any use case for a freelance writer where  this wouldn't be a good fit. That makes a lot of sense because I agree. I installed Mailtrack to try it and it drove me crazy. I felt like it was buggy and it put at the bottom of every email that it was being tracked.  Sometimes you don't necessarily want your prospective clients or current clients knowing that you're tracking your email or their email. It's nice to have that as a secret tool in your arsenal to be like, “Hey, John Smith opened my email 21 times. This is the perfect time for me to write a custom follow up because obviously, there's something about it that got his attention.” But you don't really want to show all your cards with that. So I love that idea. It's so simple to do. It probably does not add any more than a handful of minutes to your pitching process. A basic misconception. I think another misconception that people have and we'll talk about this later is that it's as simple as sending a pitch and a client opens your email, reads it, writes back, and goes, “Sure send me the contract. Let's do thousands of dollars of work together.” A lot of the business is in the follow up.  You're setting yourself up for success with that. Follow up from day one by tracking it just makes it so much easier for you. I see people have these complicated spreadsheets that show when they contacted people. You don't need all that. Use the free version of Streak, get all the benefits of it, and don't add more stuff on your plate. So that's great. Abbi would also say, if you're not using Gmail, there's so many great tools built right in. They've even got this new, little nudge feature. If you sent an email a couple of days ago, and you haven't had a reply, it'll pop it back into your inbox and say, “Hey, you didn't get a reply to this. Do you want to do anything with that?” So I wouldn't necessarily take Google's advice every single time and immediately send a follow up three days later, but I do love the snooze feature, for example. So she will often snooze that and say, “Hey, remind me again 10 days from now.” Because that's the point where she does want to follow up and she does want to take a look. Is your email address unprofessional? So again, on the admin side, we talked about your email address might be coming off as unprofessional or getting flagged as spam. If it's an AOL.com address, It's definitely getting flagged as spam. If it's a hotmail.com address, it's 100% getting flagged as spam. It is 2020, get your own domain name and get a personal email address. It's not that expensive. I feel like Google charges $6 a month for that. I know I just put one of my websites on the year long plan with Squarespace. And it was one of the bonuses that came with that. A year of professional email. So at the bare minimum, you should be using something @gmail. com, you can probably get away with that if you don't want to deal with the hassle yet or not ready to invest. But it's such a small and easy thing to do to get that yourname@yourname.com or yourname@yourbusiness.com. Even if you don't have the full website setup yet, you can still leverage that email address.  It comes across a lot more professional because we've all received those annoying emails. Usually it's from SEO services. At least that's who targets me. And it's so obvious that it's a poorly written pitch. I mean, it starts with Dear Sir every time. Which I'm just like, “No, that's not accurate.” But you don't want to come across like those people. You don't want to be the fly by night, template pitch that has no rationalization to it. So try to stand out! Little things like your email address can make a big difference. They really, really can. And that's going to bring Abbi to her next point.  I mentioned these things that feel like templated pitches. So she’s all in favor of templates and systems and processes that save you time. But they shouldn't ever feel like templates and processes and systems that you created to make your life easier and to not really care about your clients. So she has a couple of  rules for business or rules for life or just things that she lives by core values. Don't lie. Don't send an email you'd be embarrassed to show people in your real life. These are basic things to Abbi, but a lot of people don't bother to follow them. So if you are a person who follows them, you will stand out. One of the things that she thinks about a lot and that she talks about a lot is that you should genuinely care about your clients and the people who you work with. You should really care about them. And you should think of them in a sense, as your friends. Yes, you want to have a professional relationship with them, but you should think of them as people whose well being you care about, whose time you want to protect. So don't send them crap that you'd be embarrassed to show people in your real life when you're emailing someone.  Put some effort into it. Even if it's a pitch, and even if you are using a template, put some effort and thought into it. She uses, for example, a tool called a TextExpander tool. There are different versions of this. The one that she uses is literally a $4.99 one time fee app. And it makes her life so much better because she can say of all of these templated responses that she can call up with just a keystroke or two, but then she always goes in and personalizes them. So the part that doesn't change is the service that she offers. Every single client who she works with gets the same offer, because that's the service that she offers. So it's an email sequence, it costs this much, and if you want a sales page, it's this much. But what she’s pitching to them, why she’s reaching out to this particular client, that's going to be the part where she’s going to put in that personalization. Be honest. And she finds that it's most effective, again, if you're honest. If you actually looked at their website, and there was something about it that spoke to you and made you say, “Wow, I want to work with this person.” Or if you're on Upwork, or a site like that, and you see a posting, what made you apply to that posting? And please don't tell me it's that they're offering a lot of money. That's not a good reason. There should be something beyond that that is pushing you to reach out to this specific client and not that one. So talk about that. And don't be afraid to let some of that passion come through. She thinks it makes pitching much more enjoyable for you as the person who's writing the pitch. And it certainly makes the person who opens it and reads it feel much more engaged with you if you're starting off by saying, “Wow, I looked at your website and your involvement with this organization, or the way you're approaching this, or the people you're serving…” Whatever it is, talk about the pizza thing that jumped out at you and got you excited. Absolutely. There's way too much generalization in some pitches. And it always surprises me, especially when I see that in responses to an Upwork gig. Because you're competing against other people there. If you're cold pitching somebody, they might have other freelancers that are cold pitching them, but most likely not at the same time as you sent your message on LinkedIn or your email. Use personalization. But when you're on Upwork, it's essential to have some level of personalization and a lot of times people will say, “Well, how do I know what that is? I can't see the client’s name. They didn't include their link or Upwork won’t allow them to do it.” Look for the clues that the client has left you in the job description if they are hiring a virtual assistant and it says, “I'm looking for someone who's super organized and a great communicator.” That's the personalization you put into the pitch. Not saying, “I'm a great virtual assistant.” Lead with, what it is about your communication.  Is it a feedback comment from a previous client that said you were the best communicator they'd ever interacted with? Is it the fact that your organization spills over into your personal life and your friends are envious of your closet? Share things that speak to that level of personalization even when you don't have a ton of information. I think it is an important sticking point that comes up a lot with beginners as well. It's easy for more experienced freelancers to pitch. They've got all of this background, past clients, testimonials, and referrals. If I knew, what the heck do I say in my pitch so that it's honest, like you mentioned, but not making promises that aren't true or not giving away necessarily, “Hey, you might be the first client I'm ever going to work with. How do you get a that in a pitch? Confidence is key. Abbi is definitely a huge fan of honesty. So she would never say you should claim to have experience that you don't have. But she also doesn’t think that you need to open with, “I've never done this before.” So you want to strike a balance.  One of the sentences that she loves, and she wants to give credit where it's due, her friend Lauren Golden uses this sentence and teaches this sentence, and that's, “I'm confident that I can do this for you. I'm confident that I can do this thing that you need for you.” Tell them the process. If you make your pitch about the outcome, that you're going to deliver the results that you're going to give your client, then you're driving that conversation. So it's not going to be about samples, clips, and experience. It's going to be about what you are going to do for them. Sometimes it can be very helpful to talk about the process you're going to follow to get the work done. You might say something like: “Hey, if we work together, we're going to start off with a kickoff call. That'll be about 45 minutes. Here's what I'm going to ask you on that call. Here's the information, I'm going to need to see from you. After that, it'll be about a 10 day turnaround time for me to do the work. During that time, I'll update you every other day by email, or I'll work in a shared google doc.” Whatever it is, talk about your process that makes you sound like you know what you're talking about. You have a process, you're laying it out for them, and you're making it really easy for them. Your clients don't necessarily know how this project is going to run. Because just like it might be the first time you're doing it, it might also be the first time they're outsourcing like this. So if you step up, and you say, “Hey, this is how this will work.” You take a lot of pressure off them. Think about it like this. If you're going to renovate your kitchen and you hire a contractor to come and renovate your kitchen, you’ve probably never renovated the kitchen before. So hopefully you hire a contractor who's perhaps done this once or twice, but every contractor has to start somewhere. So maybe this is that. But if he tells you, “Hey, okay, on Tuesday, we're going to come and we're going to demo. You're not going to have cabinets or counters or whatever. It's going to take two weeks after we measure for the things to be built and made. Two weeks later, you're going to have wood boxes in your kitchen. And then I'm going to come three days after that and do the countertop.” At least you have some sense of what's happening. Even if he's never done this before, and it's his first time and it's your first time, you feel a little bit more confidence in the process. Abbi thinks it's also okay to say to a client, again she wouldn't open with this, but she thinks it's okay to in your discussion, say, “Hey, I'm still nailing down my process on this, which is why I'm going to slightly discount this project or, which is why I'm doing this for x amount of money, when in the future, I plan to charge this much.” I think that that's an okay thing to say, when you're starting out if you really want the work, you really want this particular client, and you feel like this is your end. Telling the client the process adds accountability. I love all of those ideas. And I especially like explaining what the process is going to be like for the client. Because the other thing that's great about that, if you're just starting out, you've kind of set up your own loose accountability there by saying, “”Okay, we're going to start with the kickoff call.” So if I get this project, I need to be organized for that kickoff call. How am I going to block my schedule for that 10 day delivery period to make sure that I meet the deadline and the process that I've already presented to the client? I think clarity helps a lot. And clients want to be thinking about that end process of where you can take them. I love the idea of saying that I'm confident I can do this. Talk about your experience. Another one that I recommend is saying, especially if you have past experience, even if not freelance related, “I rely on my blah, blah, blah degree in web design to help my freelance clients.” or “I rely on my five years of experience working as a nonprofit to now serve in a consultant role.” So that's absolutely true. If it's accurate for you because you are relying on that experience. That's the passion and the interest in the background that potentially brought you to the type of freelance work you're doing today. So I completely agree. Do not lie. Do not say these are the kinds of results I get for my clients if you don't have any results yet. You don't need to say things like that. Of course, when you get to the more experienced freelancer point, you absolutely want to start adding those things into your pitches. Great comments and feedback from clients, amazing results, big name clients you've worked with. But please don't feel as a beginner like you have no chance if those things are missing from your pitch. Because I think you're just relying on a little bit different approach. But that doesn't mean it's not valid. And you have to think about the fact every freelancer started with no experience. So many people have found a way to break in and they are just a couple of steps ahead of you. That's really important to keep in mind. So two things... One is you might be new to freelancing, but you have a lot of other experience. Abbi said she can't tell you how many students she’s had who come to her and say, “I have two doctorates, and I've been the president of Uganda for seven years. Do you think I'm qualified?” She said she’s like, “Yeah, I feel like you can probably handle writing. Yes, I feel like you will be okay.” So don't discount the 10 years of corporate experience that you have in any writing work or freelance work that you've done.   Anything that you've done in your past that relates to what you're trying to do now, counts.  It matters. It's real experience. Every Freelancer starts somewhere right? Everybody has a first project. She loves to tell her students it's not only does every freelancer have a first project, every brain surgeon in the entire world has to at some point, picked up a scalpel and sliced into someone's brain for the first time. And she feels like not to belittle what we do by any means. But she feels like brain surgery is just a little more complex than most freelance writing projects. My goodness, Abbi just gave me a flashback. In my husband's third or fourth year of medical school, he rotated with a surgeon.  And the guy was more than ready to throw him into gastric surgeries with no experience.   My husband was like, “Yes, I've been trained to do this. I understand the theory of it. I know what that process should be. “ But he's like that first time that he goes, “Okay, you tie this up.  You close this out and you do the sutures.”  Everybody gets over that hurdle, no matter what your line of business or your passion is.  So keep that in mind.  Continuing to push yourself and get over those hurdles, especially as you expand your business too.   Me and Abbi have both had the first time we coaced somebody, the first course we created, which by the way, mine sucked.   So it’s going to be okay. However, if the first thing you create, the first thing you do, the first pitch you write, is maybe not a home run, that's okay. Because sometimes I think it's about that confidence of sending it out. Sometimes I hear especially from freelance writers that they're like, ”I'm going to take the next five to six months to write.“ And I'm like, “No, you're good. Like you don't need to spend six months workshopping this.” Sometimes it's just about maybe you don't send that first pitch to your dream client. But getting over that hurdle is so, so important. Following up. So let's talk about following up because this is really where your pitch can go from an email that happened to get read to now we're talking about potentially closing a deal. A lot of freelancers often ask me and I give them the answer that they hate, which is it depends if there is a specific formula for following up. I think there are loose guidelines around when and how you follow up.  So I was curious about Abbi’s thoughts on “you've sent the pitch, we tracked it, we see it's being opened, it's possibly being forwarded around” what now?  Abbi says follow up is so critically important. She follows Ilise Benun of Marketing Mentor. got it. And she did a podcast episode or an email or something about how somebody was trying to get on her podcast. Abbi had emailed her multiple times. And she said, “I feel like she probably thinks she's bothering me, but I happen to know I'm really busy and every time she emails I'm like, Yes, I meant to go and look up her stuff and I haven't had time yet. If she keeps following up, she's going to get booked in that slot.” So we write all these stories in our heads about how they must have hated it or they would have replied, but the reality is people are busy. They're spending far less time thinking about you than you think they are. No one cares about you very much. So the act of following up is really important in and of itself. How and when do you follow up? So how and when Abbi typically advises to follow up is if after two weeks if you've seen that that email has been opened multiple times, it's a good time to follow up. But how do you follow up? Abbi doesn’t forward the old email. Don't do that. To her, that's weird. She would do a new email with a new subject.  You can even say following up, put a dsah, and then your original subject line. And that's something that she likes to do personally. And then, “Hey, I wanted to follow up with you. I'm sure you're busy. Here's how I can help you…” Hit the high points. Here's how I can help you be less busy. And here's how I can take some of this load off of you. I want you to think for a second about the one behind the one. There's the thing that business owners say like, “I need social media management, right”. But what they mean is “I need more clients. I need more money.” That's what they actually want. So speak to that want behind what they actually want to get from this relationship. I can help you grow your business, I can help you whatever it is that you're offering to do for them. Hit the high points and make it super easy for them to get back to you. It's not, “Hey, you can call me at this number.” Nobody wants to pick up the phone anymore. Put a calendar link right in there and make it super easy for them, click here, book a time with me, I will be happy to take care of everything for you and give you all the answers you need. Take this project off your hands, get it done, and get it delivered. You can even say something like, “I'm currently booking work for whatever next week, two months from now…” Whatever it is that you're trying to project in your business that can sometimes push people into that response. If your email hasn’t even been opened. Abbi thinks that if you've seen that an email hasn't even been opened and it's been two weeks, then she would definitely send it with a completely different subject line because it wasn't ever opened. So ignore that first subject line.  It either wasn't interesting enough to them or it never made it to the inbox or they have a lot of email and things get lost. Whatever. forget about it. Come up with a new subject line, something that you feel might hook them in and get them to open your email. You can use the same text of the email if you want to, although I would read it over to make sure that there's nothing in there that's getting it filtered into spam. Just give it a once over. And if you see that something was opened once and then never opened again, it still could be worth a single follow up. In that case, I would kind of make a note to yourself that this is the last chance for this guy because you feel like he's not interested.  And it’s fine that not everybody is going to be interested in you. And that's okay, too. Make the follow up different than your original email. I love all of that. And one of the things that I really want to hone in on, which is what you talked about, is this idea of making the follow up be a little bit different than your original email.  Not forwarding the same email and not saying, “Hey, again, here's my website with my samples.”  Remember, these people are busy. If they didn't look at your samples from the first time around, or even if they did, they don't want to see that again. So you're getting into the psychology of it all right? Who is this person?  They're busy, but obviously there's a need and a want here because they opened my email five times. So how can I hit home with that?  Another place where people get stuck a lot is the multiple follow ups. And I think that's important to do. Because sometimes you will hear from clients that you haven't heard from in weeks, months, sometimes even years.  And they will appear out of nowhere. Even if you've never worked with them. There was someone that I wrote a proposal for, that they didn't accept, but they forwarded my name to somebody else who contacted me out of the blue. Because I had kept following up on the proposal that they never signed and went for. So I like to think of it as you're opening all these doors, then leave them open for as long as it makes sense. Don't do the follow up of like, “Hey, just following up on this.” That's appropriate if they have a proposal or a contract that is pending a signature. Then you can be that directive, like, “Hey, I just want to make sure my invoice gets paid, that you saw this contract and scope before you agree with it.”  But make it more personal. When you're still at the pitch level or you're trying to get them on a call or something like that. I think a lot of people kind of miss that. Creeper status. Now, after the first couple outreach efforts, I get a little bit of creeper status going so I will start googling the company and the person I'm emailing. I will look for articles or new studies that came out that were relevant to their business. And I will say something like, “Hey, I came across this article on email marketing, and how the ROI on it is, blah, blah, blah, dollars for every blah, blah, blah dollar you spend. I instantly thought of you because I know I've sent you previous information about email marketing and I really feel like for your audience segment. It could be key.” If the CEO was recently received an award or was featured in an article, use that as your follow up like, “Hey, I saw this. This is super cool. It's part of why I'm so pumped to potentially work with you.” So make it a little more personal. I think that every client and potential client hates when people say, “Hey, following up.” or  “Hey, checking in on this.” over and over and over again.  Because you're making it all too easy for them to just say, “No, not right now.” There's no incentive for them to take any action based on those kinds of statements. So you want to prompt them. This is what you're missing if you don't work with me, “Hey, I'm really passionate about your company or you or your industry.” Something that's personal that makes them go, “Man, if we are gonna outsource it, it's gonna be to this freelancer because their follow up game is solid.” Abbi shared that if you want to go an extra step, send a video pitch.  This is something a lot of people are going to hear this and be like, “I'm not doing that.” But Abbi encourages you to think about it. She has students who have had an enormous amount of success with video pitches. They will literally use Loom, again free Google Chrome extension that’s super easy to use. Even if you've never used it, you can be up and running in 45 seconds, because you're a human with a brain. You go to their website and you can talk about them and like, “Oh, my gosh, I love this stuff about you.” Or you could take that article and say, “I'm reading this article, and I'm just thinking about you. This line in particular really speaks to me and reminds me of your company, because XYZ.” Number one, not everybody is sending video pitches. Number two, it is clear that you made this effort specifically for that client. It catches their attention.  And Loom loads things so nicely with this preview right in the email. People are like, “Huh, what's that?” And they click and you don't want to go on for 17 minutes. But if you do like a two- three minute video, that's something that has a real impact. And you get a notification when they've watched it. So another nice tool for “Oh, hey, they watch this.” You know you are going to stand out in their mind. We're writers, because we're introverts and whatever. Get over it. They're not looking at it to judge your makeup or whatever. They care much more about themselves. So take the time, make this little video pitch because it makes such a difference. I can't even tell you how many clients I've landed, or at least opened the lines of communication, because I sent a one or two second video.  It's really your chance to show that you're a human too. You're not just a taskmaster who does projects and turns them in. You're a human being. And you have a personality. You care about their business. I also worked with an online business manager for about two years. And it was from an Upwork pitch. But she went one step beyond to Google my name and made me the two minute video that says, “Hey, I went and looked at your website and as your OBM here, the three things that I would change that I don't think are working as well as they could.” No one else even spent the five minutes today to check out who I was and where I probably needed the most help. And so that led to a two year contract for her. Make it personal. So anytime I can do something that's a little bit personal like the video, going that little one step beyond the follow up.  Another one of my favorite follow ups is pitch the person then connect with them on LinkedIn. I did this yesterday.  And I was pitching a speaking gig. I wrote the custom pitch to the conference organizer. Five minutes after sending it, I sent a connection request on LinkedIn. And said, I like to add a note section connecting I said, “Hi there, I'd love to connect with you because blah, blah, blah.” But then I put at the end, “Also, I just sent you an email on 2029 friends. Looking forward to connecting.” And because people still tend to check their LinkedIn, which might not always be 100% true on email, that's another great way to follow up or keep that conversation going or ground somebody whose email inbox is bogged down to go searching for your name. Add a note to connection requests. Abbi loves that I sent a personal message with my LinkedIn request. Because sometimes you can get dozens if not hundreds a day. And when they don't have a personal message, she’s not necessarily going to bother to approve them. Because she doesn’t know who you are. She doesn't know anything about you. And she doesn’t know if you're a good connection for her.  She’s very selective with her LinkedIn connections. Because when she puts out content on LinkedIn, she wants it to be showing to people who actually may engage with that content. So if it's somebody who has taken the time to write her something personal, she will almost always accept them even if they're outside of that immediate market. She thinks, “Okay, this person made the effort and told me why they wanted to connect with me. Sure.” But if you don't bother to do that, then you are missing out on a chance to connect with people. I leave my connections for the longest time in purgatory on LinkedIn if I can't figure out who they are and what they do.  This is especially true if you don't send the note. Also, your tagline on LinkedIn is extremely big.  Someone the other day tried to connect with me and their tagline was “Making dreams come true.” And I thought, what does that mean?  And what industry are you in? Some of the people that I connect with, not just connects with, but gets right back to them immediately, are those who are like, “Hey, I saw your TEDx talk.  I loved Episode 90 of your podcast.” It's like, “Oh, yeah, this person actually knows who I am. They're not just randomly clicking people you might know and adding connections for whatever reason.” So if we think like that, I guarantee you marketing managers and busy entrepreneurs think like that, too. So it doesn't even have to be related to the service that you pitch. It may be you saw them deliver an amazing keynote and you comment on like, “Hey, you really killed it on that stage. You did an amazing job.” You're much more likely to open that line of conversation and communication. So I think that's so important and underutilized. Abbi has also had students of her who will sign up for her free email course, they'll like her Facebook page, they'll join her group, and then on LinkedIn, the message will be something like, “I swear, I'm not a stalker.” So you know, it took five seconds to write that. It made her laugh. And she gets it. She knows you want to follow her in these spaces. That's totally cool with her. She is there for it. She’ll even reply to something like that like, “Haha, I don't think you're a stalker. It's awesome. So glad to connect.  Let me know if you're finding everything you need.” And now we have a conversation going so. So there are definitely ways that you can do that and it's such an easy way to stand out from the crowd. Just give them a nudge. So to close things out, because I feel like we could talk for hours, say you're in the process of following up, you've suggested the call, and they haven't taken it. Do you have any tips for how to nudge that person into getting them on the phone? Because I feel like that's where so much business is done. How do you nudge that person without being annoying? How could it be most effective at sort of prompting them into that action step of the phone call? Abbi would definitely start with her calendar link. And if that hasn't been clicked on, if that hasn't resulted in the follow up, then she might, in her next follow up, propose two times. She would say, “Hey, I'd love to get this on the calendar. Would Tuesday at 3:00 or Wednesday at 10:00 be better for you?” Then if one of those works, then she'll send that calendar invite. There is no foolproof system. It is a little bit tricky there. She doesn’t have a great foolproof system. And she doesn’t think there is a foolproof system for every situation. For example, her calendar link is linked to a zoom call. Which is a great little setup, but some people may be intimidated by the calendar link in general and by the idea of Zoom. So maybe make it a little bit easier. “Would it be easier for you if I called you at 10am on Wednesday?” Think about the person.  If you're speaking to someone of a certain age, they may be less comfortable with some of the technology. And if you're speaking to someone who's not in a technology field, they may not be comfortable. Another thing that she ran into was some corporate clients can't access some of those zoom things on a corporate network. So be cognizant of that and say, “How can I do this? How can I make this easier for you?” I love that and giving them a reason to take the phone call, even if it doesn't end up going further with business. Maybe there's a question they have around content marketing, or maybe you have a couple of recommendations that aren't giving away the farm, but allow you to get some of your insight in there, and really get them to see you as an expert. So when people are busy, there has to be a reason for the phone call. Your link cannot be a 45 minute thing that you're scheduling. Keep it to 15 to 20 minutes if they're definitely interested. And they've written back saying, “Yeah, we really need someone to help with XYZ service.” You can expand it to 30 minutes. But you want to watch your time too so that you're not giving away too much and it's not leading to business. But definitely give them a reason for that phone call to make sense. Get them thinking. Right now we're in q1, a lot of companies have met and decided their budgets for the year. That might be a good opportunity to be like, “Hey, I'd love to hear about your content marketing and traffic goals or email newsletter goals to close out quarter one and kickoff q2 strong.” That gets them thinking about it. And If you've hit the right employee or that's on their list of things to achieve, there's more of a chance that they're at least willing to talk to you, especially if it makes them look good if you're going to give them a tip or if you're going to propose an easy solution. You may say, “Hey, your email newsletter is not converting, I know because I'm a customer and these were the problems I encountered with it.” They're much more likely to hire you. And you also can make that employee look good when they go to their boss and say, “Hey, I've got some excellent feedback on how we can improve this. And I found the professional who can help us to accomplish that and knock it out and start seeing better numbers.”  More Abbi later. I love it. This is not the last Abbi will hear of me because I have so many things to pick her brain about. We're definitely going to try to have her come to a live training in my facebook group specifically about email sequences.  Iit is kind of in the freelance writing world like writing emails for other people. Abbi’s Facebook Group is amazing.  Another one of my pet peeves with the online world is Facebook groups where, especially writers, love to pile on each other or critique other people's rates or be negative or write comments like “You'll never achieve your dreams.” Abbi’s Facebook group is not like that. I also strive for that to not be my Facebook either. But I would if you're a writer, even if you're experienced, I would strongly recommend joining her facebook group because it's a very supportive community and people write actionable tips in response to questions.  They don’t write supervague, like, “Hey, I can offer you a phone call.” You're going to get good answers to your questions. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the advanced freelancing podcast. For more freelance advice, get a copy of my book Start Your Own Freelance Writing Business—available now! Buy it from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Apple Books, and more. Connect with Abbi: Website: com Instagram: @AbbiPerets Facebook: Successful Freelance Writing Moms

Howdy friends and welcome back to Sunnydale! We even brought Faith with us to help manage the impending apocalypse. Which I'm sure we will get around to, right after we wrap up all this in-fighting. Another huge shout out to Julia for representing her chaotic energy. Buffy finally makes a stand here and chooses her moment to test the strength of our militia. Not against The First, but, against a mini-boss named Caleb. Sure hope that works out. Thanks for listening!

The Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past. A game that has changed the world of gaming for many fans over the decades. Let's hear how it influenced the game world for the Press B crew! Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:00 Episode 11 links to past today on path.Jake 0:25 Welcome. Thank you for listening to presby to cancel I'm your host this week sick Jake. Today we're going to talk about my favorite Zelda game well, well maybe second favorite Zelda game. Anyway, I'm not here by myself. I'm joined by my fellow friends and co hosts starting with Polish polish. How are you today?Palsh 0:42 Dude, this is a start to sound like your last time you had this, like I was word for word or using the same intro.Jake 0:48 I like mad hockey. Honestly, to be honest with you, I kind of slacked off on the research. I just didn't last 30 minutes. So cross my fingersPalsh 0:59 do you want to keep In the episode I kind of do sureJake 1:03 whatever there is research, research,Palsh 1:05 research. Okay. Hi, I'm Paul swana nine.Wulff 1:08 Great to see who needs research when you know what you doJake 1:12 not know we're doing I'm also joined by werewolf How you doing? What? Wait that was unintentional burn shit.Wulff 1:20 What? What?Wulff 1:23 Howdy, I'm werewolf.Jake 1:25 Sorry, we'reJake 1:27 What are we doing and to bring us back to sanity for the therapy coach GP How you doing?GP 1:33 I'm doing fine. Thank you.Jake 1:34 It's good to be here. That was more normal than I was expecting. That's great. Okay.Palsh 1:39 Yeah, kind of disappointed.GP 1:44 I had some really good dick and fart jokes, but I decided to try to bring us back to sanity.Jake 1:49 Mission accomplished. All right. We're going to talk about Legend of Zelda Link to the Past. But before we kind of dive into it, I do want to kind of hear for everybody what you're expecting. ends with a Zelda as a franchise just briefly because we could talk for hours about this. Just your favorite movie favorite game for the series and what you like about the series or if you you're like me and you disagree with everything everybody says you hate it, that's cool too. Well, if you want to startWulff 2:14 Yeah, I Gosh, I would have to say that I used to split my favorites up between 2d and 3d entries. Whereas, you know, my favorite 2d game was linked to the past. And my favorite 3d game was windwaker for a very long time up until I played Breath of the Wild and then that one kind of supplanted it and I think it's safe to say now that overall experience like for a proper Zelda experience I think Breath of the Wild is my favorite but Link to the Past is still much more playableJake 2:54 Yeah, I think Breath of the Wild was great for the innovation right, taking the series A drastically new direction and I really I love it too. I'm almost thinking now that for me in the future, assuming they keep making games like breath wild, I have to split up into three, like classic 2d Zelda is your old school 3d Zelda, and then whatever the hell they're doing with Breath of the Wild now going forward, because I find that game so drastically different from the rest of the series.Wulff 3:18 Everybody says that, but to me, it just seems like it took the 3d gameplay and shoved the format into it, you know, the original Zelda just have at the world. Good luck.Jake 3:31 Actually, that's true. It does have that quote that elements and there's just not for me, it's the lack of items, I think is what kind of made it different for me. And just the gameplay being so rely on the physics. It's a great game. I love that one.Wulff 3:42 Yeah, it was a very different entry. It was a lot more limited. There wasn't 40 different items to obtain in the game. It was simpler, in a lot of ways, but also a lot more complexJake 3:56 overall. Yeah, definitely solid title. Alright, GP How about yourself? What's your exposure to zelda?GP 4:04 I personally I love Zelda to The Adventure of Link, not pluralized it's The Adventure of Link. AndUnknown Speaker 4:12 was he not allowed more than one?GP 4:14 No, it was just a single solitary adventure.Palsh 4:17 One is all you need, sometimes.Wulff 4:20 So you think most people refer to that as Adventures of blank.GP 4:23 But now I grew up playing, trying to figure out the first Zelda couldn't do it. And then the internet happened before everybody had a computer in their home. I live next door to the library. And so I would walk over to the library, spend an hour downloading maps for Zelda two, and fell in love with that game at that point in my life. So that one's got a very special place in my heart. I appreciate the newer ones Breath of the Wild is gorgeous. But it is one of those rare games where I prefer to watch other people play it, as opposed to playing it myself, but I love it. Also, aka RenaJake 4:58 Ashley. That's interesting. Make up your mind just so many zealots. I love how you mentioned Zelda two is your favorite though because that's also kind of a How do you say outlier from the series? Right? And we talked before about sequels being so different from the originals, but that side scrolling link game is just quite a bit different than the rest of franchise. That's pretty interesting.GP 5:20 Yeah, I love it. But and one of my favorite things that real quick about the franchise as a whole is the music and how really the music is one of the most cohesive things to tie together all of the entries. I'm sure we'll get to that later on. But you asked about what our experiences and that's that's my two cents.Unknown Speaker 5:39 Paul shovel you What's your what's your fascination with zelda?Palsh 5:42 My favorite I'm not a big like Zelda fan. You monster. Like I'm a freak. I'm a freak. Yeah. And just to prove it. My favorite game is actually in the series in the whole franchise is actually trulyJake 6:00 Yes thePalsh 6:03 Zelda to The Adventure of LinkGP 6:06 we are now almost the majority Good job Paul thank youPalsh 6:09 yeah and I and I'm not doing it just to make this cheeky against Jake but no that's it's literally literally my favorite Zelda game like the rest of them don't compare it to me I know and I understand why people often like rant and say they don't like it but I've never actually heard someone flat out say they don't like it except for a couple of friends that I make fun of for their choices anyway so doesn't matter everybody that whenever I was like playing it or something on stream or you know talking and another stream basically because this you know how I connected with people over games like this. It was always do this my favorite Zelda I'm like, holy crap, me too. So it's it's weird how it's the least favorite but at the same time, everybody I know it seems to be one of their favoritesGP 6:55 is this it's kind of it's that song that comes on the radio, where nobody wants to be like oh, The song so you all just sit there and listen to it and silently jam out. Nobody will change the radio station. Because you would think for a wild, widely, not like game. Everybody shows up when you stream it. Yeah,Palsh 7:13 yeah, that's true.Wulff 7:15 See, I don't know. I think it was a really solid game. People give it a lot of crap as a Zelda title based on the other side of Zelda titles. Yeah, it's a little weird. But as a game, it's really solid. And I think the only issues I have with it personally, are probably due to translation problems. There mirror. Well, no, not not even as simple as that. Like, there's a point where you have to like duck and stab at a table to get into a basement and one of the houses. That's how it's done in real life. Nobody in the game tells you that. And I'm sure in the Japanese version, there was probably dialogue somewhere that gave you the clue.Palsh 7:53 Yeah, the closest you get is like, look under the table or someone says something but table that has no indication on you know which table which were the you know, duck and duck and smack it.Wulff 8:06 Yeah, so it's it's really vague and cryptic about the few issues I have about it because it doesn't teach you these things. It barely even tells you about those things. And that's a problem but otherwise it's a really really good game. And I think that's just a translation issue, not a gameplay issue.Jake 8:23 Well, I mean, if you look at if I were to be locked in a room,GP 8:26 what do you think?Jake 8:28 Thanks to up as you guys were gushing about this, you know, Zelda to being so fantastic. I was gonna just say that I know it gets a lot of hate wolves right. And you know, if I was locked in a room with Mega Man one and Castlevania another hot garbage along with Zelda two I'd probably play Zelda two as well.Palsh 8:45 Take it back.Jake 8:47 I'm only joking it's not a bad game. I actually I actually do like it a lot. For me personally with Zelda I've been a fan for every every game. The only games I haven't played are the crap ones on CBI like a lot of people But I mean, I played the original original NES Zelda on a black and white TV. Like we used to visit my cousin. That was a TV in his room. We used to play Zelda for hours. I love the hell of that game. And it wasn't till I was a teenager when I got a stats I got late. And my dad when he says my dad, he said Zelda and just, he'd want to go play catch outside. He want to go to the movies. me. No, no, I'm not talking you dead. You're not cool. I'm just here to play Zelda. I don't love you. I just love Zelda. I love things of the past. It's, I mean, we're talking about this and we're talking about Zelda and like the past for this episode, but it's funny as we're recording this Link's Awakening remake came out, I think last week or so. And it's playing that, again is reminding me that links awaken is probably my favorite this series, which is funny, but it's, it's mostly because it's a spin off of linked to the past. Like it's very much in that same vein just expanded and better. Right. And but it's the same idea, just something about linked to the past the story The items and helicarrier links awakening both fantastic. I love Breath of the Wild too. But as I said earlier, I almost, I almost think of it as a separate game. It's definitely Zelda. But I don't think it's like the 3d was like our Marina and Majoris mask personally.Wulff 10:15 Well links awakening was very much a passion project, at least for a while it was developed after hours by people who were just screwing around with the Gameboy tech to see what they could make. And I I don't quote me on this because I don't remember who it was. But I want to say it was agio enuma, who actually started it all by himself just messing with it. Either that or he was like one of the first two people I'm pretty sure that jumped in on it. And then that guy was joined by someone else like what are you doing? I'm messing with this trying to make a Zelda game I'm trying to recreate Link to the Past on Gameboy. And they were into it. So they started doing this and it just eventually flow just Didn't do its own thing that pulled in elements from Zelda two and straight away from Link to the Past a little bit because one of the driving ideas behind the development was the ability to have two different like to change both buttons, you didn't always have to have a sword equipped. That was really the driving idea behind it initially. And it just blew up. But eventually it was like a dozen people working on it after hours before they finally took it upstairs and said we want to make this an actual thing. And then they got the Go ahead.Jake 11:35 And see that's actually really cool. Because when I was looking into Link to the Past development, there's actually some parallels there. So I mean, I guess we'll just get right into it then. So then it's super nintendo. I mean, it was unveiled internally, Nintendo in 1989. Right. I mean, obviously the Nintendo was a massive success. Stats had to be better. And there's two game franchises they knew they had to launch very quickly with the system or close to it. And that was very world and then linked to the past. So they actually had development start on both games at the same time or approximately the same time. But from what I've been reading with an interview that mimoto did number years ago, he kind of explained that Nintendo doesn't like to throw whole teams at a game development early, rather just a few people to start with. And then they do what you just described for links awakening, they kind of just tinkering around play with it threw around some ideas. In this case, they're also evaluating the hardware, how far could they push the hardware and see what they could do with it. And after they kind of nail down some concepts of what they thought would be good for a new Zelda game, that's when they started adding in more staff, eventually flushing out staff and then releasing the final game. So that experimentation is kind of like a Nintendo's mo I think for back then.Unknown Speaker 12:46 Raw speechless. That's all good. Okay.Jake 12:51 I'm checking my notes. Hold on one sec, nerd. Okay. Yes, I'm totally a nerd. Okay. So, development link. The past was two names that are being very familiar to people who listened to us before and one of my favorite, it's headed by Shigeru Miyamoto producing and then test tech Ashi Tezuka. I will never say his name right now I'll try I feel bad. I feel likeGP 13:16 he was never say right desicaJake 13:20 It's okay. I'm going to wake up the middle of night and Tesla will be over my bed for the copy of last levels. And he demand they played or I die. Like saw but Nintendo edition. Anyway, it says the cut Did you get for mispronouncing my name? forgiveness please, Jessica. I know he's the one who did last levels. He also had mario maker and that's why I know his name so late much lately as I love mirror maker. He's great director and both him yamoto are the heads of linked to the past. And so when it came to this game, I mean, they already knew that the original Zelda Nintendo was well received, but they want to have to do they have to kind of step it up, do something greater for the news. system, especially if this is going to be like a console seller or an early launch title. I mean, this game came out, I think was just after a year, the console launched. 91 is when Zelda came out was released. So they had to kind of do something new. The original Zelda was well known for its open world. The ability to purchase items from stores was pretty novel for the Nintendo, Nintendo. And the various usable items and you collect it through all these maze like dungeons. So they had to take on that expand it. So they looked in, kind of went back and said, Well, what could we do on Nintendo, that we can now with the stats, so it kind of that's when they kind of looked into things that could do like, more story and more plot better music, right? The idea of having two separate worlds the light world, The Dark World world is stuff that was not possible on the original Nintendo. So there's things like that they were looking at doing. One of the cool things I was reading about was they want to use more water right as an environmental effect. How would you say or gameplay affect the original Zelda there? One dungeon I think it was seven where you can get into the dungeon by basically drain the water on pond but it's Nintendo right there's only so much you can do so it just changed the color of the ground texture so from water to grounds and that's how they did it wasn't very good so when they saw that they want to expand on that link to the past and water and look to the past is all over the place right it's it's a theme in one that one or two dungeons at the very least pluses probably overwhelmed like the idea of swimming I don't think link pass a diving but the idea of swimming changing water lowering water all that's a major facet of like the the past so something to kind of want expand on.Wulff 15:37 As I say I didn't have diving I think it just had ducking to hide under the water from projectilesJake 15:42 Was it because I don't just still pretty close awakening has diving moves the same ideas. Yeah, can I confuse the two so much.Wulff 15:49 So linked to the past just had Ducky talking, but it was it was still a really cool idea of dodging projectile projectiles since you don't have your shield out. You can't just get out of the way so quick The water movement is a little bitUnknown Speaker 16:03 sluggish.Wulff 16:05 sluggish, sluggish. That's a good word for plusJake 16:07 they also they put the Zora monsters the mermaid monsters in the water and they're constantly popping up shooting fireballs at you and their pain on the ground nevermind we're in the water so it's glad there's some kind of defense against that. So I mean there's other things are looking at adding as well. One of them was the idea of fire the original game had the candle which you could burn Bush's right later I think you light up rooms with as well dark rooms that stuff they brought in to Link to the Past. They want to do bit more with it though originally the plan and developing it so that if you set a bush on fire, it would actually spread out to neighboring bushes and just fill the screen of fire wasn't able to do that on the Super Nintendo. They were even trying to just get it down one of the two that the big trees you could burn the big trees down, but they just couldn't get squeezed in there. In interviews memo to set up at six more months at DEF time, they probably could have figured it out. But it's kind of neat because that's the kind of mechanic that later came into Zelda for song. Which I'm not sure if you guys ever played Zelda for swords before anybodyWulff 17:05 I love for swords.Palsh 17:07 Yeah, me and my brother both had it but it was that Christmas time we both got it I think I got a copy of for him he got one for me I think he's have a work we are we we both agreed on getting one for each other and then we tried playing it and then he was gone the next day so I never actually got to experience it properly.Wulff 17:24 Okay, so I'll say that I got to play the whole thing on gameboy advance it was in the Link to the Past initially for Gameboy Advance and that was a really cool adventure. I think it was I got to play it three player. But then there's also the the actual Four Swords adventure on gamecube which was such a cool idea. I loved it, it was think Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles if it were Zelda instead, but then you could also screw with the Players, which often resulted in a lot of salt, and not very long gameplay sessions, so you didn't really get a whole lot of the game done that way. Unfortunately, you just described Bomber Man I'm super nintendo for me. There was too much. There was too much competitive aspect to a game that was supposed to be so heavily cooperative. And I think that was the game's downfall. But I still love the concept. And I I want to beat that game so bad and I don't know if I'll ever get the chance.Jake 18:30 There's gotta be a way we can do it online has to be because I played that as well with friends. I don't know if ever finished it though. But it's one of the reasons why I love couch Co Op games these days like you know, overcooked and, and whatnot because just that same feeling for me right for people on screen, messing with each other. You're supposed to be doing a co op game, but it never goes that way.Unknown Speaker 18:51 But while we're on topic, actually real quick. So the game coke GameCube Four Swords is that different from the 3ds one I thought they were the same thing.Wulff 19:00 3ds What are you talking about?Jake 19:03 Man? Sorry?Wulff 19:05 Oh no, they're very different games the game, the gamecube game is a fully fledged full fleshed out. It's its own adventure. You play it, if you're playing multiplayer, you got to play it with GB, right? That's what I had to do. And it was so cool because every time somebody goes into underground or something, you gotta switch and look at your GPA and play there. And then you go back to the overworld. And then everybody's on the same map again, and it it did a lot of really cool stuff that was way ahead of its time. And I would love to see a Zelda game do that sort of thing. Again, it's just maybe with more accessible control scheme.Jake 19:47 Yeah, well, I mean, that's the thing, right? Nintendo loves. They just love their hardware, right? They're always trying to find new interesting ways to do the hardware. They'll cost a lot of money. That goes back to like the Wii as well right the Wii and the multiple remotes and Just power glad for the or the or the I saw somebody using the force cut months ago that was another trip just so many control options that are bad but it's a lot of fun though I what I played it was really great. I would love to play it again actually okay so I guess I just want to talk a little bit about Link to the Past itself right i mean this is topic the episode and like it's hard for me cuz I do love everything about this game right? I love how there's actually a story to it. I love how it's you know, the tale of evil wizard who is trying to break a seal to another dimension and bring it back Ganon right stealing sages and maidens I think it's fantastic story. I love the music. I love the graphics. So I love everything with this game. So it's kind of hard for me to like narrow it down. So I'm gonna let relined you guys tell me something about the game that you love. And a couple kind of go with it. GPG actually wants start because we're talking about music earlier.GP 20:55 Well, yeah, I think the music is fantastic. Um, one of the things because For context, I just did my very first playthrough of this actually was more of a blind run earlier this year and like February of 2019. So I was brand new to the experience. And so many people have hyped up linked to the past I, I really felt bad for not loving it more until the end, I didn't realize how much I enjoyed it until you know, the credits for scrolling. And I'm like, Oh shit, there's no more I'm not ready to be done with it. But immediately the things that stood out to me, you know, the the more crystal clear, you know, expanded musical tones that they carried over from the older games, but also the clarity of the graphics and the smoothness more than anything. I think smoothness of gameplay is not something that you really associate with the original tues elders. And really see it kind of, I don't want to say perfected but you know, taken to a whole new level. It's such a smooth game and just beautiful There were a couple of things I still take issue with on that game. But on the whole what a What a fun experience. And I My only regret was that I waited 35 years to play it.Jake 22:12 Yeah, it's such a great game. The music is just iconic. For me. It's like there's a handful of composers I think are just great for video games as a whole and Koji Kondo is one of them. He's the one who did like the past, but he's also well known for the merio series as well.GP 22:27 Well, no, I just had his pissed off because the beeping will not stop I suck at the game so I heard I heard more than I heard music.Jake 22:36 Yeah, yeah, that beeping sucks. And that's like an all of them too.Wulff 22:41 Yeah, that's that's a sound that needs to start getting an option. Yeah,Jake 22:46 well, so we'll get to it in a little bit. But the the idea of Zelda randomizers actually have that option. But anyway, before we go into that, the music Koji Kondo Are you kidding me?Palsh 22:55 What? What?Palsh 22:56 Yeah. Oh, why didn't you tell me the lab to play all You know, you have to play Yeah.Palsh 23:02 Now we got to start over. I that is worth starting over for me. Okay, I'm just saying I'm that with the rent. Actually, no, I can't say anything. Yeah, the randomizer I was playing it as research for this. And actually, no, I shouldn't complain about it because the seed that I got for the randomizer I had, like, all but four hearts. I only ended up beating like one dungeon, I think it was.Jake 23:27 Yeah, so it actually has an option to make the beep like quarter beep so it's less frequent. I think you can change it even less than that, or you just turned off entirely. But if you're used to playing the games, and you use that boop, boop, boop, and you're gonna die. When you turn it off, and you're playing with three hearts and you're fighting a boss. You don't even notice you're at one half health or whatever, and you die very easily.Palsh 23:49 If that happens to me, IGP 23:50 very easily no matter what.Jake 23:53 Yeah, yeah, early on in Zelda games is always rough, right until you find that you know, the first few hard pieces to kind of even things out the beginnings are actually very tough. Do hard pieces give you more life. That's how bad the game I don't even know if you want to watch a stream or do a three heart run of any of this all the games, I've seen a few people do that actually. And it just I thought I was good at some of these but now these people are masters at it's insane.Wulff 24:18 I think that would just make me sad.Palsh 24:21 Just be like, no.Jake 24:23 So I wasWulff 24:24 never played Zelda again.GP 24:27 I don't know. I The reason I people say that they're like, I don't like watching masters of games, because it makes me sad. And I think I'll watch ice skating, but I don't kick myself in the astronaut being a master ice skater. Well, you're doing it wrong. Come on. Well, it's mostly an issue with the costumes. I don't look that good in dresses. ButPalsh 24:46 yeah, this is true. I've seen you in dresses. SoWulff 24:50 back to the can bring it back around. Jake's question from earlier. I guess I'll take the answer next. My favorite aspect of this was the fact that it had to overworldJake 25:01 Yes,Wulff 25:01 darker light when I first played it back in, I think, did it come out in 9191? Yeah, I probably paid it in 92 because I don't think I had a Super Nintendo that first year, man that second overworld all of a sudden, just there's a whole nother world in the game. It just blew my mind. I was like, What is this? This is amazing. I was one of those kids who did spend most of his time indoors playing games. I had a TV in my bedroom. I had all sorts of stuff. So when it was that, like, that's not to say I didn't go out and ride my bike all the time and stuff like that, because I did that too. But it was cold or I didn't want to go outside. I could game my friends could come over and hang out with me and we could just play in my room. And this is a game I spent hours on I played the crap out of it. I beat it once I beat it twice. I probably beat it six or seven times in the first two years of owning it. And it was so much fun. This is a game that friends and I would sit Watch each other play and we're doing we're doing the twitch thing well before twitch was a twinkle in someone's eyeJake 26:08 you're watching me through a window andGP 26:11 would have been much better to be able to band people back then to get out of my out Larry go change your name and come back laterWulff 26:20 go home john john. You're pissingGP 26:21 me off you know john.Wulff 26:25 I knew a few of them. I knew a few John's I knew a few Jimmy's. We all hung out. It was weird. And that's not a joke.GP 26:36 Before I forget, I have to ask you werewolf. I have to ask you a question about everything you were just saying that you loved. Because earlier when you were talking all that mess on Zelda to Adventure of Link about the No one told you to look under a table. That was my main issue with Link to the Past. There's so many things that there is no indication that you should look under there or move that Like the bubble walls are the closest thing you get to hince other than that, you know, move this tombstone pick up this tree. Like how are you supposed to know that stuff? So I feel like your thing about that was Zelda two is a good point. But I want you to address how is that okay for Link to the Past? Because that's where all of myself that game came from.Wulff 27:22 See, I don't know I just kind of knew that certain things could be moved, you know, you can move blocks, you start messing with stuff. I do think Sahasrara law might have had a lot of clues hidden on the walls and dungeons and around yes and whatnot. That might have explained it. I don't know. I it's been so long since I played the game proper. I can't guarantee that Sarah Sally said everything.Jake 27:49 Sarasota was a sage or in some respect, please.Wulff 27:55 Oh, I'm sorry sir Sarah Sally.Palsh 28:00 So, I mean, there was also some stuff listed into the mag manual too, soWulff 28:07 that's true. And then if you really got stuck there was that little hint guide that came with the game too. I still Oh yeah.Palsh 28:15 A little was like fold out the black and white folded.Wulff 28:18 Yeah, little two by three fold out pamphlet.GP 28:21 Yeah. Okay, well, that's fair. I guess. If you grew up with the game, and you had a tablet or something like that telling you what to do. That makes more sense. Thank you.Wulff 28:31 That little booklet though. It was sealed when you got it and it made sure to let you know, you know, only open if you get really stuck.Palsh 28:38 Yeah. And you opened it like the first or second dungeon because you didn't know what was going on. You know, you never forget it. ButGP 28:47 let's just like the table. Yeah. Now, you know, look under the table, right?Jake 28:51 Yeah. That's like a Zelda Zelda is all about rewarding exploration. Right. And the idea bottle walls almost didn't make it into the game. So than the original Zelda, you could, you know, bomb walls but they weren't distinguished, I think then we could tell them the original was with the sound of the note that it made when you hit your sword against the wall. I think that's the thing. And they have that and Link to the Past. But Miyamoto experimented with, you know, having the ability to bomb walls because he found that was very rewarding to players if they actually took the time to explore dungeon and four secrets. But then he realized what the original, you know, the problem is, is too easy to miss, you know, some of the rooms that could be there. So if you didn't know to look for the rooms, you'd be kind of missing out on some of the content. So that's why he kind of stuck with the idea bominable cracked walls, so it makes a little more visible to what you're doing. But there's some stuff that like both mentioned, sometimes you just know you need to do something in a room. Like when you're playing a Zelda game and there's like five blocks standing on their own. You just know you're going to push one of them. It's just one of those things that kind of ingrained on you early on with the gameplay.Wulff 29:50 Yeah, or if there's a key door in a room and there's just a bunch of enemies and nothing to do probably kill all the enemies in the Drop a key something like thatJake 30:02 but like it's definitely a game it doesn't actually hold your hands or when your hands that's the thing anyway but you definitely a game where you have to explore I guess to kind of get the most out of it there's items you can miss I think in that game as well. You don't necessarily need all the items to finish the game which I think is amazing. Paul shovel you Yeah, well, yeah, there's the invisible cape is one of the item Oh, yeah,Wulff 30:24 there's the cane the cane.Jake 30:27 Okay, at least a few.Palsh 30:28 Yeah, I found the magic cape. By mistake. I remember that. And I was really proud of myself because neither of my brothers did it. So you know when there's a 10 year gap between you and your older brothers, and you do something they did? It's bragging timeWulff 30:42 I got a little that from my little brother from time to time wasPalsh 30:47 asking them do that still. No, I remember loving the game because Zelda to was probably one of my favorite games because it was one of the few I had like I remember When Super Nintendo came out we had probably half a dozen actual games we rented most of the games. So if I got a game is usually for birthday or Christmas gift and that was it and I mean, Christmas gift we're talking Sears wish book you know there's a lot of stuff besides video games you had to get your hands on so so there's a lot of rentals I got and so when I actually owned Zelda two on NAS I think I got it at a yard sale with a bunch of others like Simon's quest, pro wrestling and something else and it was it was instantly because I owned it is my favorite. And then I played it extra and I was like this is better than I remembered. You know there's only like two years that's probably like 11 years old or something. But because of that I was like instantly a fan of linked to the past and when I played it, this is good. This is good. This gets better. We're getting stuck and getting last and ripping open that cheat sheet. You know, that cheat sheet. Never basically fold it up again because it was always left out. There's no way to You stopped it. You needed it every time. And you wished it was like pages and pages longer. But it was just really fun because it felt like a Zelda game for some reason, even though the only one I actually had experience with was Zelda two never played the first one at this point, and then this one came out I played I was like, okay, cool, played links awakening and not long after it came out, just like, this is great. And I remember buying it for $25 because it was like, not a greatest hits version. It wasn't quite they didn't have the greatest hits kind of thing or the game of the year, whatever. They called it back then. But it was probably around. I'd say 9796 something like that. And I found a copy for could have been earlier than that actually. But I remember finding copy of Walmart for $25 and just begging my dad Can I can I can. I managed to get it and so then I fell in love with it again. So it was just held a fun place. My heart I don't care for it as much now, but back then it it just blew me away because it was just such a good game.Jake 33:08 Yeah for me i think it's it's the influence its had on the rest of series is what I think draws me to liking it still even today like to go back to the music for a minute. Oh good.Palsh 33:18 Oh no, I was going to agree. I mean that's that's I think what makes me feel so good about is how much of an influence it is on games in the future because there's not a lot of game like it's not in my top 10 anymore, which is saying something because this is still a damn good game. The influence of head on future gaming I think it's, it's crazy, like direct or indirect. It's there,Jake 33:42 like the idea of the music even alone. I mean some of the themes that are famous throughout the franchise, things like Zelda lullaby or Gandalf theme, or Hyrule Castle, you hear bits and pieces of those themes in every Zelda game up to the Breath of the Wild even. So like that Music from this game is pretty much through through the entire series. And I mean the idea of the spin slash and then you know, various items and stuff. There's there's a boomerang, there's a hookshot and various sequels to the franchise. They're all kind of used in slightly different ways, especially in the 3d Zelda. But it all kind of comes back to like, the past has been the origin of a lot of that stuff. I mean, the original intent of Zelda. I like it's great. But I think it really just kind of cement the idea of an open world exploration and dungeons. But as links to the past that broke out into the idea of all these very unique items and Collectibles that really excited and exploring things. Right when we talk about Metro veiny is, I think, the past kind of belongs as part of the what we call the makeup or history of that kind of genre is part of like the past as well. It's very much like Metroid, right?Palsh 34:50 Yeah, it's it's like more of a kind of top down version of it as opposed to just like straight up platform, right? But it has the same elements to it, which I think That's probably what appeals to me still is because it has that that certain path you have to take and there's shortcuts you can do their stuff. You can go for extras, but you know, there's a there's a set path and there's a reason behind it.Jake 35:13 Well, and so like, I mean, it's not your top 10 for me, it's probably my top three. If you asked me what my top three favorite games are, it changes every month to be fair, but linked to the past like the past is always on top three. I really love that game quite a bit specially for the Super Nintendo. Again, I'm played as many of this NES games other people have but this one is great. I love this but I think mario world it's like an eight for me Link to the Past is like a two or three if not higher, it'sPalsh 35:42 great. And considering how much you like the Mario games that's that'sJake 35:45 my boy loves me my merioGP 35:50 think I'm culturally and in the history of gaming. The impact of Link to the Past is pretty undeniable. To the point that even if you don't like the game, You have to be able to say well yeah this is this is culturally significant in the gamer universe, right? SoWulff 36:09 you know what that's that's actually I think my brother's position on the franchise is most Zelda games he's not into. But he he like understands why people are into him but they're not for him. Granted right now he's going through the new links awakening and loving it so I don't know maybe that'll rekindle something in him. But yeah, he's he's not been a Zelda fan for most of hisJake 36:30 life. If he loves links awakening, then he'll he should like Link to the Past. I mean, I think links awakening is probably a better game is that remake is pretty good too. But links to the passes permission, same thing. But it's also for me, it's a it's a game I think is very timeless. We've mentioned before that's NES games or 16 bit era era for me will always look great, right? As nice as 3d graphics are, I can still sit down and play an old school 60 big game and love it. Sometimes Nintendo has that but For me, it's always been 16 bit. And Zelda game I still play today I play it quite often. But once you've kind of found all the secrets and you've, you know, you've mastered the route through the dungeons linked to the past, you know, it's not so fun to play anymore, at least in its current state. So, let's go back a couple years ago. I don't know if you guys fell for it. There's this huge fad of roguelike games. You know, raise your hand if you played it. roguelike right. Rogue Legacy was Oh, absolutely. Everybody's playing theWulff 37:30 legacy Binding of Isaac it The list goes onJake 37:33 bunny Isaac is very clearly influenced by Zelda, right? It's like smash TV by Zelda.Palsh 37:37 Oh, yeah.Jake 37:38 So read the idea of procedural games. It's really popular. And then the idea of ROM hacking or modding of old games has been around for a decade or more, right. And there's a lot of people who do amazing stuff with ROMs there's a few notable ROM hacks for like the past even there's one called parallel worlds. It might as well be the unofficial sequel to Link to the Past. It's It's a fantastic run. Mac, it's practically a brand new game. It's amazing. But what's really got me about a year and a half ago now is a group of folks had put together basically a randomizer. What they've done is they found a way to take the ROMs code and scramble various things to randomize it. I guess that's the name of why they call it randomizers. But they would take all the items in the game, and they would spread them around, right? So you wouldn't necessarily get a sword from your uncle and the first part of the, you know, castle dungeon, maybe you'll get a boomerang. Maybe you'll get you know, fuckton get five rupees, right, it was completely random. But the way that was ingenious about it is they would scramble the items. But they would put in logic to prevent you from getting screwed when you go into the dungeons because links to the past requires certain items in certain parts of the game. So they kind of adjusted the game's code and logic to account for that. So Link to the Past, and randomizers it's been a huge thing for me, last year and a half. It's one of my favorite things to do when I have free time is to play round of Zelda randomizer it's at the point now where I can use Beat one in under four hours, which I'm pretty proud of. Because it can be linked to the past fidella in usually two and a half if I'm feeling good. So the randomizer to me just brings this fresh of air to a game that I used to love as a kid. And now I love it even more now because I also love roguelikes I think they're great. The idea of procedural content in games has always been fascinating to me. Like I'm a big fan of Minecraft, but my issue with Minecraft was not of Zelda like influences in it right? You had sorts in Minecraft but you didn't have dungeons Really? I mean, you had kind of dungeons. You didn't really have fun combat but you had this great exploration element. I always wish that it had Zelda like elements. Zelda randomizer manaphy Minecraft but it has anything I want. So the rammers is great. So the recent additions actually they recently changed a bit so now you have boss shuffling so the bosses even change sometimes they can duplicate sums they won't I mean they added in power changes to the dungeons can look different now that have various characters appear to be as as a cosmetic thing. Probably important to polish they got rid of the heart beating Right. There's a lot of options built on the randomizer website that's just fantastic to check out. I asked you guys for the podcast and maybe just do a round or two of the round of the randomizer to see how it is. Pulse you want to start because I know you started a randomizer probably before I did actually,Palsh 40:14 I was probably spending just as much time trying to get the ROM hacked work because I'm tech inept. But once I got it going, I was like, okay, you know, I'm gonna give this a shot. I've seen a lot of friends playing it before and I was like, Okay, cool. The games. Kind of getting old for me. I'm just kind of sick of it. I called it the Mega Man to center my first because it's just like, everybody was playing a randomizer I never sounded like the first time I played the game on stream. People were like, Oh, it's nice to see someone actually playing the vanilla version. I was like, cool. Okay, right now, welcome. But the only time I've ever seen people playing randomizers up until now was watching people race each other or, you know, do PBS and stuff like those speed runners basically and ones that were that knew the game inside and Which is amazing, but it's just not for me. So I just I guess because of that I kind of had this automatic bias towards and I'm like, okay, I don't don't like it. You know, it's not for me. But when I tried it, I mean, I like the original game. It's nothing wrong with it as it's a great game, but just trying and the excitement of actually trying to think your way through it because oh, I don't have a sword. I didn't have a sword for the first like, 4550 minutes. And I was like, I'm in trouble. And everybody in chat was watching me play it and they were like, Oh my God. Oh, you got a hammer. Thank God, you know, like so there was this kind of tension that that wasn't there since I first played the game. And that was kind of cool, because it was like playing the game. You had similar feelings of playing the game for the first time, but still being familiar enough with it that it? You know, it hit the nostalgia button for you. So I gotta say I was very, very impressed with how much fun it actually was when I finally dreadJake 41:58 it. Yeah, like the highs and lows. are fantastic man playing that like you have 200 rupees you know you need to go to Kings or to get the flippers but in a randomizer you don't know what you're going to get. And I think every time I've played one I almost never get something useful from Zora it's almost always something stupid like arrows five rupees a cane something I don't want and it always curses name like every single time.Palsh 42:21 Yeah, I looked it up because I get the flippers It was like one of the first three things I've gotten. And then so I was running around trying to kill things with pots. Yeah, because pots pots and bushes because I couldn't actually swing at them with anything and then I ran out of bombs. So I had bombs and something else I'm still in the same game. I'm still trying to get the damn lantern so I'm kind of stuck. So I think right now I have to just find my way in the dark and I'm kind of scared to.Jake 42:47 I think wolf when I watched you play a little bit. I think you were stuck with the lamp as well trying to find one.Wulff 42:51 Okay, so I played two randomizers this week. The first one was Just the Link to the Past randomizer and right up front it was given me awesome item after awesome item like I had the Master Sword before I even made it into a dungeon. It was that crazy. I had the hammer I had, I had all sorts of stuff. What I what the game just would not give me was that lantern. So it kept it keeps cutting me off from various paths within dungeons. So I can only do so much because I can't do anything without the lantern. I have no book I have no lantern. I'm hosed as far as getting into donePalsh 43:44 it's just thinking of which he's not the Canadian one in here butWulff 43:47 but it's a pretty much off the table for me with that stuff. So today I decided to try for the first time the Super Metroid is linked to the past randomizer because both games I'm very familiar with It's been a long time for both of them, but I, I've played the crap out of them numerous times. Explain how they actually what they actually do. Like the randomizer for that. Yeah, so it puts items from both games in either game. And there are points within both the Zelda world and the Metroid world, where passing through a doorway will take you from one game to the other. You know, samas can find upgrades for Sammis or she can find upgrades for link or items for link or whatever. Same with link out in Hyrule, you can find items for Sammis and so it's, it can be frustrating, especially since with my experience, let's let's This one was less kind to me. Let's Let's start with that. I was super excited right off the bat. You know, it starts you in Metroid. It starts to in Super Metroid. So I jump into the game. Run around on Zabbix for about, I don't know, five minutes you can do anything. And then you just zPalsh 45:10 was it z? No, I No, no no I just call it jeebs cuz was Elvis doesn't sound right to me stillWulff 45:15 number one told us I want to say it was Eric. Someone told us how to pronounce it properly because of other pronounced it.Palsh 45:22 Yeah. And I forget what it is.Wulff 45:25 Yeah it was I went to go through a door and all of a sudden boom I walk out of a house in High Rollers link and I'm like, Okay, cool. So I'll start exploring all sorts of stuff here. I know this world I know there's a ton of treasure chests I can get even with nothing because you have no sword. You have no nothing when you start the game. I start running around. It probably took me about shut up Google. It took me about it probably took me about two hours. To even find the Morph Ball after getting to link so I was reaching for straws trying to look everywhere I could and I think I probably found the last chest I could obtain with the items I had that was finally they Morph Ball and then I could run over into play as Sam us again. Got to do a whole bunch of stuff there. ended up getting my way to norfair struggling my way to norfair let's be honest, because I didn't have a whole lot of help with her. I got no health upgrades for samas finally get to norfair went through a door boom I'm back in high role on Death Mountain. I was like yes, okay, I can do more stuff. And again, I'm still linked running around without a sword. I'm killing things with the hookshot or bombs. That's all I've got to kill things. And most things don't die from the hookshot they just get stuck so I it was a mess. After three and a half hours of gameplay, I finally found a sword for linkPalsh 47:00 Three Okay, I don't feel bad about my 15 minutes now.Wulff 47:04 No, it was and then I had to call it for the day. But that was I will be going back to that one. Because now it's now it's like I have to it's a challenge that has been accepted.Jake 47:19 yet. The first time I did that I've only been at like twice and it usually takes me around 1516 hours. It's, but I've also I love Super Metroid, but I don't know where all the hidden stuff is. Whereas Zelda I know very well. But the few things I'm probably missing in Zelda and Super Nintendo or Super Metroid is probably what screws me through those randomizers but it's really fun.Wulff 47:40 But that randomizer playing it is really what has settled it in my mind that Yeah, Metroid and Zelda are a lot more alike than I think people realize.Jake 47:51 So same with the metro videos as a genre, like the two games are very, very similar in that regard. It's great.Palsh 47:58 Yeah, I never realized until Till recently actually have similar those games actually are so, but first I'm like What the hell are you getting on with you know, combining those two games that couldn't be more different now I'm like, okay, I dig it. I'm scared to play it. But I did.Jake 48:15 I do love wolf how you got screwed but the two hardest to deal breaker game items in those games is the Morph Ball and the lamp. If you don't have those, those games become very difficult to get through.Wulff 48:26 Speaking of which, I still have no lamp in that Super Metroid Zelda randomizer.Jake 48:32 So they do let you do a few. I don't have a speed round tricks. There's a few glitches you can do to get through certain parts or even just tricks like for like the past. There are people who memorized the layers of the dark rooms so you can get through them. I'm not one of them. The game's coded so you don't need to do that. There's left somewhere. But I've seen people just skip it by going to the dark rooms. And then for Super Metroid. Lava diving is probably the big one, right? Because there's you The fire the various various suit virus suit where we say that the presses against that a lot of damage. Yeah, so that's you do need it in Super Metroid. But there's a couple of rooms where if you have enough health, you can still dip in the lava proceed and get what you want and come back out. And that can actually give you a bit of a shortcut and certain certain circumstances. Again the code it's you don't need to do that. But it's helpful if you kind of do those contracts.Wulff 49:24 However, I feel like this can be a very dangerous slippery slope for me I think I'm going to start probably spending more time playing these randomizers and now I'm interestedJake 49:35 Well, I made the mistake See howWulff 49:36 I feel after I beat one but right now I'm I'm totally enticed by the the ideaJake 49:45 of doing a randomizer race and the two other guys I was racing against kicked my ass because they were doing the dark room dark rooms with lamp because they knew the layout because they're that good. And it was hilarious. But he also watched a few Zelda races randomly racers What do you think?GP 50:01 Well, I, I watched them wanting to kind of do the homework as we say, or do the research before playing a randomizer because I know everybody else has played him this week to do the research. But again, having only played each game Link to the Past and Super Metroid once and earlier this year, I quickly realized I'm not going to be playing those randomizers because I don't really know either of the games well enough to be able to formulate strategy. So the first video that I watch, and that was the dual game randomizer. At first, I'm like, this is going to suck because the guys who were racing actually as a race, first thing they found were or God or Silver Arrows, so not being familiar with the game, or randomizer something. Oh, this is just a new way to cheese, these games, but it was almost like the commentator was directly talking to me and my psyche, because it goes that's a great item, but it's not worth shit if you don't have the bow and arrow and you can't do anything the sword or the morphable and I'm like oh my god I've completely underestimated what this is. And so I was between minutes five and six so I think in time I may try to go and learn the vanilla versions so that I could do a randomizer but I'm I feel like I'm still so far off because the guys playing you know as they're getting items in their mind you can just tell Okay, what can I go do now what can I cannot you know, what can't I go do now and the commentators as well are saying I think they're gonna go to lower norfair and I'm like, I don't even know which game that's from know your shit. I don't think I'm sitting here thinking is there a Mario randomizer is there you know is there a randomizer I can try first. So I'm there is dipping my toes into the shallow end of the randomizer pool I can tell you the one thing I wish they had already fast forward button Don't Don't get me started Don't get me started horrible joke and I don't mean that but like I said I completely underestimated how much I thought I would like it. It did give me an appreciation for how little I know about these games. But that did not make the experience of watching the races any less fun.Jake 52:29 Yeah, a good color commentary makes all the difference for watching a speed runner race especially with the randomizers because if they know the ins and outs and explain things It's like watching a basketball game or for me a football game. I know jack about football. But if they commentator can explain what's going on in a click away it's it's all the difference.GP 52:46 Oh yeah, if the if the video was on mute, I wouldn't have lasted 20 minutes but being pulled in and and watching how the two different guys because they're playing the same randomizer like all the locations are the same thing for each racer. But the way in which they strategize in their head ensures that they just route it differently even though they have, you know, I don't know where steps that but it was incredibly enthralling and entertaining. And like I said, I wish I'd had more experience with both those games. So I, you know, I would be able to do them,Wulff 53:22 but we'll get there in time. I want to say it was summer of 2018 that I, when I was doing laundry, cleaning the house, whatever I would put on those selda races because they had a huge tournament that lasted a couple weeks. Oh, man, those were so cool to watch to just check in on them while I was doing stuff around the house, folding laundry, whatever. And, you know, I'm folding three different people's laundry while sorting them and all that so it's given me something to do while I'm just folding clothes, hanging them up, whatever. It is so cool to just see how they play so differently. I watched so many races, it's ridiculous. And these people were like, you'd hear the commentator like, well, this guy's made the choice to go here. And this guy's made the choice to go there. And that's a big gamble. But if it pays off, it'll be huge. And you know, you see him take that chance and all of a sudden, boom, he's way ahead of the first guy because he took that gamble. It's ridiculous just to see these strategies play out.Jake 54:19 Yeah, it's almost like a competitive Sudoku. Right? It's or competitive crossword it's like a logic puzzle that people are figuring out as quickly as possible. But far more exciting, right?Palsh 54:30 Yeah to terrible math to even do a regular Sudoku thing.Jake 54:35 But you know, I was bad at randomizers and and being into it took me forever to beat my first plane Zelda one and the Zelda Metroid crossover one, I still struggle with half the time. But up you're saying that you didn't want to try the randomizers because, you know, you've only played each game once you don't know where everything is. On the one hand, though, that can be fun as well because that comes back to the thing that makes the series great which is exploration right. Playing the Zelda Metroid one especially, it's a whole double world out there of just exploring, right? Is he finished it or not, maybe. But it's fun just playing it, and trying to explore the various nooks and crannies for the items and see how they work together. I think it's great, even if you're not familiar with the base games, butWulff 55:16 there's also the different tiers, you can set the randomizer to where it's not throwing all the rupees around and everything. If it just swaps the items, you know, or something like that. You can you can make it lessGP 55:28 crazy. See, that's the thing I don't want to I don't want to go training wheels and I know that's 100% 100% ego warplessUnknown Speaker 55:37 Right. Yeah.GP 55:39 But I do like that's the thing is by the time I attempted I want to be knowledgeable and I get what you're saying subject and maybe maybe that's enough to change my mind and just dive in. Instead of like I said, Wade in the shallow waters, but pretty pretty much my only my only confidence with that that set of two games is that I could properly Identify, which I didn't goes in which world. And beyond that I really, it just seems like such a massive undertaking.Jake 56:08 It's still, I still want my most favorite things in recent years. I've always loved retro games even, even now in the current next gen systems. I still like going back to the 16 bit era, but to see people so passionately about randomizers and like ROM hacking and just bring a new life to these games, I think is just fantastic. Well,GP 56:24 and you kind of said something like that earlier, which is what gives me the field goods. And lets me know that retro will always be around and that is people are coming up with new ways to play the old games. And so long as we have things like that, I mean, retro. There's no reason for it to die out.Unknown Speaker 56:44 That's a good final thought. Yes. All right. Well, I think we're hitting our timeGP 56:49 and like I said, I just, I picked and picked on air. T moPalsh 56:56 again. Do you wash your hands this time? Nope.Unknown Speaker 57:01 I see no reason it's good time to endWulff 57:03 with a sentimentGP 57:05 in fatik Nope. Why would I start now? I mean come on.Jake 57:09 Alright folks. Well JP we'll start with you. Where can folks find you?GP 57:13 Yeah, I'm right here other than presby to cancel I had to go from the peak of my my prowess with my thoughts to the lowest of the trough. So there we go. No other than press me to cancel you can find me on the retro therapy which is on Twitch Twitter. We got YouTube we got Instagram all the classics.Palsh 57:36 Yeah, the retro therapy. And Paul shovel you Where can folks find you? On GP so my answer because I was seriously but saying you can find me right here. Now. Now I have nothing witty to say. So you can find me here and sometimes on Twitch.GP 57:52 You can you can answer first it'll be fine.Palsh 57:55 Now that's too much trouble now.Jake 57:57 filming this episode need a lot editing. Sorry. Okay,GP 58:01 mostly just because the discord I think discordsJake 58:05 Yes, we'll just we'll just blame it all on Discord. We're will help people find you.Wulff 58:12 I can be found again here. And on Twitter and Twitch at werewolf w ar e w ULFFPalsh 58:22 sounds like a radio station who carryWulff 58:28 cartridge with a wolf like as a wolfJake 58:33 and we're commanded to live here on Radio presby to cancel you listening to us right here and my name is sick Jake you can find me on Twitter or sometimes on Twitch like polish. And you've been listening to presby to cancel. Special thanks for music go to Arthur the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last nation on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby kancil.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple, iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has been an ad again.Special thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Hey friends, we've changed names. Welcome to the Podcast Coaching Podcast.  I know it's been a few months, but there's been some crazy stuff going on behind the scenes. (Which I'm happy to tell you all about in upcoming episodes).  For those who are new here, this podcast is a resource for podcasters looking to level up their podcast with TV broadcasting strategies, storytelling skills and, interviews with podcast industry insiders.  Thanks for being here. I'd love to know what you think and how what topics you'd like me to cover. Shoot me an email at hello@podcastcoachingpod.com Or, find me on social @thechristineod.  Let's do this!   

Remember that one game that despite how terrible it looked was one of your all time favs? How bout those games as beautiful as can be, yet somehow flaming trash heaps in gameplay. This episode we give our personal picks for best of the worst, and the worst of the best. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:01 Episode 10 the good, the bad, and the ugly Today onWulff 0:07 peskiGP 0:28 Hello and welcome everyone to press B to cancel. My name is Guy friend. And with me today we have our usual days of rapscallions to my left is where we'll say hello werewolf. Hello werewolfGP 0:44 aptGP 0:47 also with me today sick JakeJake 0:49 here buddy glad to be hereGP 0:52 and of course, Polish 109Palsh 0:56 Whatever happened to polish runaway nevermindWulff 1:00 Yeah, we had to let him go.Palsh 1:03 Yeah, aGP 1:05 lot of turnover in the police departments, there can be only one. There can be only at pulse post is the equivalent title to Highlander if you're Canadian.Jake 1:16 Alright, so that's a worldwide sensation. I'm sorry, everybody in every country loves Highlander.GP 1:22 That's true. That's true. Okay. Alright, so today, we're going to be discussing kind of a variety. It's a little bit of a different show tonight. Typically, we just take one game or one series, and we discuss our experiences, our likes or dislikes. Tonight, we're going a little bit different. The title of the episode tentatively was called the good, the bad and the ugly. If you don't know what fugly means, have one of your ugly friends explain it to you. So essentially, the idea of this episode is that we can all acknowledge the great Games, they look good, they play good, the sound is great. And we can all acknowledge the crap games, they look horrible. They sound horrible. There are no redeeming qualities. So tonight we're discussing the ones the games in between games that either look gorgeous, but are otherwise devoid of anything meaningful. We will call those Travolta's or the ugly games that have a lot of heart. We're going to call those quasi motos. Okay, so those are the two categories today. I'm going to start us off and then we'll discuss and you know, go around the table as we always do, but we're going to start off with the ugly but great or quasi modo category. And I tell you what, guys, let's just go through different video game systems. We'll start with the eight minute video games. For me it's any s, which is going to be Bionic Commando. Okay, so I love this game. I played it on stream recently, and I'm always reminded about how much I love it but truly Fully the color palette is obnoxious. There's not the greatest animations between your character or the bad guys that you're trying to kill. And it's repetitive as hell. So that's kind of the idea here. Let's talk about Bionic Commando. And if you guys agree, let me know if you disagree. Let's have that conversation. werewolf. What do you think?Wulff 3:20 You know, I've actually not played a lot of Bionic Commando. I think the last time I played it was, gosh, I was seven years old. So almost 30 years ago. Good grief. So I can't say much to it. But I can say that from what I've seen people play on Twitter recently. It's not a pretty game. But I do see a lot of people playing it on Twitter recently. So that must be some somewhat test some testament to its quality.GP 3:51 Sure, yeah. Okay, so it's a popular enough game. It's not always the best to look. So if you're going to watch Bionic CommandoUnknown Speaker 4:00 A beer to firstGP 4:02 beer or do you first gotJake 4:04 Yep. enhancerGP 4:07 Okay, sick Jake. Paul What do you guys think about Bionic Commando?Palsh 4:12 We go I'm sick regoing sick Paul shirt Jake 109 Who's going first?Unknown Speaker 4:18 we merge together we are oneGP 4:21 yeah give us that sexy fusion voice yeahWulff 4:23 that trunks fusion voiceGP 4:31 Alright, so I guess we'll go with Jake first.Jake 4:34 What do you think about Bionic Commando supplying commando? I played this quite a bit as a kid. I'm just trying to struggle how much variety was there in the enemy'sGP 4:45 will as far as the enemy sprite goes? All of your entry level guys are pretty much the same. They were maybe one or two like older throwers or you know rocket launcher guys, but otherwise Yeah, all the same.Jake 4:56 Yeah, like none of them stand out to me. In hindsight when I kind of Going back to that game, I don't remember anything notable graphic wise, I remember that. I remember the back color palette like you mentioned, for sure. It's poor choice. They're all they really remember but graphics is the main character. As a kid, I thought he's got a doc rip off with that weird mechanical arm. That's all I got from the game graphic wise. Nothing memorable at all. I didn't care for Gameplay wise, it was actually quite fun. I mean, mechanics were solid.GP 5:27 Right? Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. I think the biggest mechanic or the biggest saving grace of this game would be the mechanics, no jumping, just extendo arm. And also I to me, I love the sound. This is for me one of the rare games where the not just the soundtrack. But the the, the noises of the game. Were so perfect. And for me they invoke such a strong nostalgia, but I mean yeah, that's I think that's exactly kind of the heart of what the category is. So post, what do you think about commandoPalsh 6:01 I, it's pretty much the same as Jake is like, I don't remember a lot. But the things I do remember that kind of stuck in my brain like I remember not being able to jump and always wanting to swing like Spider Man basically, ever since now I was like, Yeah, I want to do this I remember playing the game and I think this is so cool. But I never thought it was amazingly good luck and I just thought that was the coolest idea. So I think sure yet looks was no, but you know, gameplay was I thought it was fun. So I agree with you.GP 6:36 It's got that heart that addictive quality that after you leave the game, like if you haven't beaten it, you know you're wanting to go back and continue or you know, just pick up where you left off. Yeah. Now I'll say this. I don't have this for every category, but the eight bit ugly but great category. I have an alternate or an honorable mention. And I'll say this real quick, Final Fantasy the riginal a bit Final Fantasy not a pretty game, but damn it was amazing. I no no no you guys know I love Final Fantasy. And it was great for what it was and what it sparked. But going back it is it is dated.Wulff 7:16 Yeah those those tiny backgrounds and battle with just four characters in a box and a little background and then the rest of its blackGP 7:27 it's it's a sexy older sister, I guess technically the sexy younger sister of Oregon Trail,Jake 7:34 which,Wulff 7:35 I mean, the game was based on d&d, so it was leaps and bounds from pen and paper numbers, but they still hadn't found their visual groove yet by any means.Jake 7:51 Of course, but the enemy sprites and the boss sprites that game were extremely detailed and there's a lot of variety and the monsters you face because I thought about This game is well for my list. I didn't do it because of the variety of monsters on the graphics, the sprites.GP 8:05 Yeah. Okay. See, I could definitely concede to that. But you know, to the point of it was inspired by or trying to invoke d&d as a great point because d&d requires a lot of good imagination to fill in the gaps visually and I think that is the point to Final Fantasy that I'm trying to make is there's some cool ideas there. But with the limited motion and animation you really have to use your you know, theater of the mind as it were to to fill in those those gaps.Palsh 8:37 That's pixel or a nutshell for me, so I agree. But you can get some effing cool pixel art that said, Okay,GP 8:45 I don't know No, no, that's good. Actually polish. Let's go to your what's your quasi modo game, the uglyPalsh 8:52 but great game, this one stuck out to me and just because it I was felt like it looked like an entire game to me. Kind of That meant that made it with an any s game and it still had kind of elements of mostly Atari boys blob, because the graphics were really great. But the whole premise this game was hard, I still won't touch it because I'm just I don't have the fear of failure. But the fact that you could, you know, give them like 40 different jellybeans and have all these different things like you could turn your blog into a trampoline or a ladder or a friggin rocket you know, it's it's really cool but the graphics didn't keep up but I thought considering how ugly it was it still was pretty fun. And so that's that's just what stuck out for me.GP 9:44 Yeah, I I own a boy and his blog and I have started a boy this blob but I think the graphics and I hate to say it this way because it makes me sound so shallow. But I think the graphics is prevented me from really getting into it. So I think that It's a bit of a home run for choice there. But I can't speak to the greatness of the game just to the just to the ugliness as far as the sprite quality. And you know the image quality in general. Yeah, everything isWulff 10:15 the design choices as far as the characters, they're very ugly. Yeah, there's not a lot of detail. However, they're really smoothly animated for how ugly they are, which I always found kind of odd.Palsh 10:28 Yeah, and I think that's part of it, too, because they ended up it was so simplistic. I think they ended up getting a little bit more leeway when it came to animating them.Wulff 10:37 Yeah, but yeah, that that game is definitely a favorite of mine. I had that growing up. I don't know what happened to my copy. I don't remember getting rid of it. But I don't know if it got lost in a movie or I did eventually trade it in or something. That is a game I put far too many hours into as a child. Oh my goodness. Like, I can probably still remember What most of the jelly beans do. That's how much I played it. Catch up a catch a pole.Palsh 11:07 Yes.Wulff 11:09 That is licorice ladder root beer rocket.GP 11:13 I had a root beer rocket oneJake 11:17 I think I agree with GP on the terms of the graphics is what probably turned me off in the game as well. I didn't really finish it. I spent I made it to the offworld section and that was interesting. But you spend majority of your time on the ground and there's such a limited palette of colors down there. It's all brown and black. I found it extremely dull.Wulff 11:36 Yeah, they're their color choices definitely reflected what they went back to in the early 2000s just with less bloom. Right? Yeah.GP 11:44 Well, Jake, what What game do you have for us? Ugly but lovable for the eight bit?Jake 11:52 I mean, I mean, some guys know me. If I'm not complaining about a game on I don't like it. And they'll go on game I complain about all the time is our type for the master system this game is brutally hard for me. It took me forever to beat it and I had to use a continue code to do it. It's great The gameplay is classic to me the bosses are awesome. There's also mechanic where if you don't be the boss is fast enough to take away from you. There's you know, upgrades. It's a great game, poured it on literally everything. But the matches is the one is the one I played the most. But the thing that makes it ugly is there slow down constantly, there's flickering every other level. There's one level I want to say it's the third one where the background is this organic, pulsing like red color. But that's fine, but the enemy shots are also red. So because of the poor choice and colors of the background, the enemy bullets, you can't see where the bullets are half the time in addition to all the flickering. So like the graphics are just terrible, terrible. I've seen this game in arcades and it looks 10 times better. It's a shame because it's a fantastic game gameplay. It's plays well for me in any system. I know of the Master System and I love it there but the graphics on that system just can't keep up.GP 13:06 Gotcha. Okay, so I hear you saying that you've only beaten it with the continue code. So what you mean is you've never beaten it. Little bit of shady games each otherGP 13:30 sick burger.GP 13:33 Wolf, what do you got for us for ugly URL now? I'm sorry. Let's not do that yet. A portion where what do you guys think about our day?Wulff 13:40 Um, I've never been a fan of shoot 'em ups and bullet hills. So our type was one I didn't really get into. TheyPalsh 13:49 kind of blend together for me. Not that I'm saying it was a bad game or anything, but I can't tell the difference between archetype and Gradius. And anybody who's a shoot 'em up fan right? I was probably wanting to strangle me so I apologize but either way, honestly, you're not wrong. There are very few shooters that pull me in.GP 14:09 Yeah, I'm with you. I think the only one that really stood out for me was like life force. And that's that's really the only one I paid attention to. I'm kinda like you guys with that so I will have to take sick Jake's word on this one. Yeah, but I believe especially I mean, yeah, I've never heard of anything like that where the bullets are the same color as the background. Obviously that is a horrible designWulff 14:35 that's that's a controllers are are right there.GP 14:38 Yeah.Palsh 14:39 It ends up being any s heard.Jake 14:42 It belongs in any as hard but different system.Palsh 14:44 Yeah. Gotcha. Master Cisco. doesn't have the same ring to it.GP 14:49 doesn't roll off the tongue as much. Yeah.Wulff 14:53 Alright, so what do you got for us on your quasi game, the game that everybody is familiar with. The Ninja for Master System but this game, the gameplay is an absolute blast. You're running around you're throwing jerkins at people you get upgrades to your stuff like movement upgrades, weapon upgrades, special attacks, all sorts of crap the enemies there's all sorts of enemy types they have different a eyes the levels get mixed up summer like a lot of them are just you know, go from the bottom scroll upward. Occasionally it's like scroll from right to left but they've got like the river level where you're trying to move from log to log and kill enemies before they get you stuff like that. They did a lot of creative things with the game, but boy did it not look good at all. There were a lot of sprites and they were a lot of ugly pixels. That the colors like they use really bright colors, their eye catching colors. But there's so much of one color that covers the screen at a time that it just it fries your eyeballs a little bit. That that bright neon green grass.Palsh 16:11 Yeah, everything looks green afterwards. It's like you're wearing you must be wearing like some like tinted sunglasses afterwardsWulff 16:19 Yeah, there's there's almost there's really very little detail on any of the locations in the game. You got to use your imagination a lot. But that game is so much fun. And it's it's a hard one. So it's one of those ones that's like punishing and you want to go back.Palsh 16:38 I didn't even know that was for Master System. The first time I actually played was on like a bootleg 31 and one NAS card and I had no idea that this is bootleg up until like, a few years ago so I was like, This is amazing. Oh, nevermind.Jake 16:53 Spiders in that you also picked a Master System game. Do you think it's something to do with that system and that just couldn't put out The solid graphic power to handle those games because there's a few other games that are also not that great graphic wasWulff 17:05 no because there are some actually really pretty Master System games to the the Master System graphically had superior capabilities to the ns but you have to remember they were a lot more companies pumping games out on the IDS it's like it's it was the platform that was supported versus the platform that wasn't it doesn't matter how much power it has if people don't know how to make use of it.Jake 17:30 Like I'm just thinking of the Sonic games, and some of them are really terrible. The slowdown is ridiculous lots of flickering like it is. It's disappointing because there aren't great games on the system is one of my favorite systems.Wulff 17:41 Well the Master System. The Master System is just a Game Gear. It's it's a Game Gear Fit to TV resolution, or rather, at the Game Gear is a Master System fit to a smaller resolution. They're they're the exact same architecture. That's why all the emulators run both of them.Jake 18:00 Interesting. Okay,GP 18:01 okay, so that's our that's our time for a bit games. Let's move on to 16 bit if you guys are ready for that, is that good? Sure. Holy cow. Is that that claw?Palsh 18:14 Yeah, we'll call theWulff 18:17 next bitGP 18:22 is one of those rare occasions where I wish I had worn pants now? Well, I'll tell you what wolf blitzer with you 16 bit ugly but great. What do you think and start race effects?Palsh 18:34 Yeah.Wulff 18:36 Not absolutely good. It had a lot of character in the graphics, but it was not pretty at all. The, for whatever reason, I'm pretty sure those What is that? gas. That gas station with the chevron? Pretty sure those Ever on cars were inspired by this game.GP 19:03 Or vice versa. But it's a goodWulff 19:06 Yeah, I've I you know what, they dropped it on the switch this week. And I went back and played it. And I had so much fun with it. Oh my goodness. It was a lot of fun. And I used to play it a lot to player which I mean, you can play two player races against the AI as well. Which is pretty taxing on a Super Nintendo. Which I'm pretty sure that killed the frame rate big time, so it made it even uglier. It was still somehow playable. And it was a lot of fun. I really really enjoyed that one.Jake 19:41 Yeah, I was gonna say the only time I saw framerate that bad post mariokart the switch was after watching stunt racer x like, it's like three FPS. It'sGP 19:52 you know, that brings up I mean, we'll have to see how the rest of the show plays out but I've had in the back of my mind like that. This big question mark of the two categories today, how many sports games or how many racing games ultimately are going to be referenced? So we're going to chuck that down as you know, the first one I suppose for, for racing, but that's, that's interesting to me. I think that's a good pic. Absolutely. But I'm glad you chose that because, well, that was on my short list of like five games. I was so hesitant to pull out as a racing game or a sport themed game. Because those really didn't hit their stride until you know much later. But I like that one pulse. What do you got for usPalsh 20:34 on 16 bit mine is pretty much the 16 bit argument all over again from from a pit I've got a game that was hard that I loved, but the same kind of problem lemmings and I hate saying it because let me look terrible Lamine, but they're, you know, like they're like six pixels each. So you can't really complain too much, but the idea behind it again, was so cool like you could make one guy stop everybody else Another one would start digging and other woman started digging upwards and whatever. So game itself was just great. The music is probably one of the top five for like Super Nintendo for me for for soundtracks. But I just remember and it never bothered me about the graphics I'm just saying it's just that they don't look great.GP 21:26 I tell you what I appreciate here is Forgive me for saying it this way. This shame in your voice when you said lemmings? It's almost like you know, it's 3am I've had a few drinks I'm lonely. I'm going to call lemmings and not tell anybody about it the next day, so I love that See, that's why I love this. This idea for the for the episode. You sneak that Kelly? Yeah, you got me good. No, I love that. I think that's a great choice. And I think we've all done that with either lemmings or a game like lemmings were like ah I just want to want to save my appetite but I'm not proud of it let's let's play lemmingsWulff 22:05 yeah that's good. What do what do you guys think about lemmings? That's actually another game where despite the ugliness of the palette, and you know, the little tiny characters that you can barely make out, they were really smoothly animated and they can eat a lot of information with what 15 pixels.Palsh 22:22 Yeah, that here but what they were doingUnknown Speaker 22:26 that's pretty impressive.Palsh 22:28 Yeah. So they, they definitely went for function over form. And they I think they succeeded. So I mean, that's that's saying, Oh,GP 22:38 yeah, it's, it's a great game. It's that argument again, it's got a great personality.Jake 22:45 Okay, all right. The backgrounds, okay, granted, not all the backgrounds are your hot redhead, okay? But a lot of them look fine to me. There's one I played on the Genesis so 16 bit and the one level or there's couple levels with the forest theme. I thought that looked amazing. And the fact that you could dig through the leaves of the tree and everything looks great to me.Palsh 23:08 Yeah, I can see your point there.Jake 23:10 Plus the intro was funny. I thought the intro was well animated.Palsh 23:13 Yes, true.Jake 23:14 I like six pixels. What are you going to do, right? There's only so much you can do with six weeks one character.Palsh 23:19 And now you see why I feel guilty even saying it because it's like, there's so much charm to this game. And considering what they've done with it. SoGP 23:27 I think it's a great game that conveys exactly what it needed to but you're right. There's not much frill to it outside of like visually, it's not arresting in a positive way.Wulff 23:39 Yeah, it's not something that ever made me stop and look when I saw it on a screen anywhere. But playing it I could not put it down.GP 23:48 Yeah, it's a game you play in your own home. Like if you had gone to Walmart and got on the display, you'd be like not here lemmings. We can know each other but nobody can know I'm going to sound like a jerkPalsh 24:04 Just you wait I'll get you backGP 24:07 okay all right so polished one or nine with lemmings subject. What do you got for us? 16 bitJake 24:14 16 bit So you mentioned earlier about racing games and this is technically a racing game. It's unit racers for the snice Oh man, IPalsh 24:21 forgot about that.Jake 24:22 So I don't know if you guys have played this game before. cyclesPalsh 24:26 Yeah, I was like yeah, just cycles without right.GP 24:29 Yeah, I rememberJake 24:29 Yeah. It's the weirdest concept for a video game I've seen in a while. But I love the hell this game I got it at a US store for like 10 bucks. Graphic wise. Literally you do you guys said it. You're just a unicycle no writer. And the tracks are basically this candy stripe. You know line that loops around and goes left to right. There's not much going on graphic wise but Gameplay wise the tricks system in it. There's like a dozen different tricks you can do with your your bike. You know flips and cartwheels, all kinds of crazy stuff. And you need to do those tricks in order to build speed and momentum. And you kind of get tied up in the different modes. Like some of the modes are focused on doing the stunts, and the ones are about speed. Some are just like, you know, marathon and length. There's a lot of variety, and tracks in the game. The game plays outstanding. The only problem is, it's a lot of them with the same precursor to Tony Hawk'sPalsh 25:23 Pro Skater. And a lot of waysWulff 25:26 Yeah. Now that you mentioned it, yeah, that game did a ton of stuff for being a 2d side on racing game.GP 25:34 Yeah, but I think when you can make the argument that if Marble Madness makes you look like a chump, then Okay, you know, yeah. Well, they might be but you can't tell because there's there's just no way no, no, I think that's a good and you're right, like, that's that's their kind of racing thing as well. So that's, that's interesting. I remember the game I don't remember much of playing it though, but I can see it in my mind. And yeah, I agree. I think that's a good good entry. WhatWulff 26:06 do you guys think? I would agree that that game was not a whole lot to look at, like it was cleanly animated. But there was a is literally, you know, the track is just a candy striped bar on the ground that moves around. And then you're a unicycle no character on the unicycle. You're just a unicycle doing stunts and tricks and jumps and bouncing around and zooming along. So it was it was a limited presentation type of game. I wouldn't sayGP 26:38 yeah, but werewolf the way that you just described it, like the you're a unicycle going around doing tricks and bumps and jumps. I if you said that to me, I would actually I would want to pick that up the way you just presented that actually had me interested. I'm like, Oh shit, maybe I should play this again. It was an absolute blast. It really was. I played the crap out of it. Good. I mean, that's, that's the heart and soul of this, this category, so that's good. I'll jump in now with my 16. But I was torn between two. So I'm going to pick the little, the one that's a little bit more controversial, just because it'll be a better discussion, but I was thinking about doing Starfox but I think we can all agree it did not age well it was not great, but it's a fun game. I know. Jake loves it. But what I'm gonna I'm gonna, what I'm what I'm gonna officially state is the original Mortal Kombat. Now I love most Mortal Kombat. It's, you know, in the series, but if you look at the first Mortal Kombat, and when I first played that I played it around the same time as Street Fighter two. So comparatively Street Fighter two, crisper cleaner, brighter, smoother. And to me Mortal Kombat, though I enjoy it. The first one was very clunky you hear how stressingPalsh 27:56 though I enjoyed, you know, he's he Doing this rightGP 28:00 because I Well, there's there's points coming in later polish. Their Mortal Kombat will make other entries in the future. I you know, starting with Mortal Kombat two, great franchise. And if you look at this disparity between how poorly the first foot looks and plays, compared to MK two, that's kind of the crux of my argument for Mortal Kombat. If they ended the Mortal Kombat series with the first one, it wouldn't have made the list but out of all of it, yes, MK one. Not that great, in my opinion, fun to play, but just pretty ugly.Palsh 28:38 You know, I can get beyond that. I thought it was really cool to see Street Fighter two, and had all the way smoother animations and stuff but I mean, they weren't taking, you know, real life models and trying to digitize them. So the the motions and the animations were so much more fluid because you're working with the cartoon versus real life. So it was fun. Don't get me wrong, but, you know, I thought it looked pretty bad.GP 29:05 Yeah, it's the video game equivalent to spawn the live action movie. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't necessarily look that great. Also, some of the acting was hit or miss. But in the end, there's something about it that I still love. But yeah, well what do you think about that Mortal Kombat? Ugly but great or just a game? What do you think? I thinkWulff 29:25 it's just a game. I was never drawn into Mortal Kombat. Like all my friends were a I mean, I was in the initial rush of it. Yeah, it was like, Oh my gosh, they're just brutally bashing each other's skulls in and there's blood and Oh, man. But at the end of the day, I was still kind of like well, street fighters more fun and prettier. Pen over this. I granted my experience with it was a neighborhood full of kids who had the Genesis so it was even more limited than the Super Nintendo one. So I'm kind of colored by that memory. Everybody I knew had it for Genesis, because of course more blood.GP 30:04 Right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Jake, how about you?Jake 30:09 I've been I hate disagreeing with you guys on every game. It's not that but Okay, look, you're right Street Fighter is definitely notPalsh 30:16 garbage say it's a game.Jake 30:18 It's not it's not lukewarm garbage at best. Okay? You microwave me onWulff 30:25 the garbage?GP 30:27 If your argument against me here's it's not that bad. OkayUnknown Speaker 30:33 then it's kind of that bad.Jake 30:34 All right. The color palette is a bit limited, I give you that. But the digitized actors was revolutionary and they look pretty good. In fact, I wonder if you compare the frames of animation in Mortal Kombat vs. Street Fighter? I bet you they have the same frames. The only difference is not as colorful. And like you're right when you mentioned later entries, the series that kind of expand on that. Moral Kombat three is one of my favorite fighting games and the color Pelletier is amazing, but just watching Keno. That rapscallion thrusting his fist in somebody's chest and pulling out their beating heart. That looked great. I thought that was hilarious as it was good looking to me at the time. I like to look at the game I also love subzero team some zero I will be for life. I thought the sprites and the characters were well done. all agree Street Fighter looks better, but I think brutal combat is not as bad as you think it is. It's no clay fighter but that way. Okay,Palsh 31:30 basically, Jake feels like Cora when he got punched in the nuts in the first movie.Unknown Speaker 31:36 That's true.GP 31:38 And the rest of us feel like Johnny K. Yeah.Palsh 31:41 hundred dollar glasses, glasses. SoJake 31:45 last all this before or after the discectomy I'm leaving that one.GP 31:50 Yeah, glass, all for the wind. Okay, I like that. Okay, so um, next is going to be the 32 bit category. Let's start with Paul. Tell me Whoa, and let's, let's, let's clarify this. This tier is 3264 bit because we'reWulff 32:05 Yeah, it's the same generationPalsh 32:08 so we can switch it up. Okay. So I'm going to name a game. And I'm going to tell you guys what the game and I want you to tell me if you think that I think it's ugly but amazing, or if I think it's terrible, but beautiful.Palsh 32:22 Okay. Okay.Palsh 32:25 Castlevania Symphony of the Night.Jake 32:31 Okay, if you don't think that's a pretty game, there's something wrong with you.Palsh 32:33 Yeah, that was just trolling. I was hoping. For more.Wulff 32:38 See, I was in on that one. Otherwise, I probably would have laid into pause What the fuck is wrong with you?Palsh 32:46 Know, that one I can't say anything bad about so. That's the joke. So anyways, continue forward.GP 32:54 No, now you have to give us a real game. Yeah, I believe a beautiful 32 or 64 Doom 64 Okay, okay, tell us about that. Why why why do you hate that game so much?Palsh 33:06 It would look great. I remember seeing magazine ads, I remember playing it or not playing it wanting to play it. And then finally I went out on vacation, came back and had a copy of it my hand I was like it was this or Duke Nukem. 64 I was already playing Duke Nukem 64 I was like, okay, so I need something new for me, my friends. So we can just lay into this game. And I tried it. I was like, This looks so cool. And then I realized this, like, this game is crap. I was so disappointed with it. It moved well, like the graphics look great. But it other than that, it just felt like a little bit better version of doom to me like, and I can't play the original Doom anymore or give it headaches just from the motion. So it looked better. But I was disappointed because I thought it was, you know, the 64 and it just meant it was for 64 and I thought it was going to be the actual Doom with better ground. Fix. Now it was completely different. Like they made their own game and I was just I wasn't ready for that disappointment. You've you've given me a bit of a revelation here and agree or disagree but let me know. Would you say no?GP 34:16 Okay, moving on. No. Would you say that video game commercials and box art and descriptions? Were the back in the day preteen equivalent to Tinder profiles.Palsh 34:32 Never thought about it now.GP 34:33 Yeah, they show up and you're so excited because their profile and then they show up and you realize this is not what I thought it was going to bePalsh 34:40 at all. Man, sir.Jake 34:43 Well, you are thirsty and hell.GP 34:46 Oh, God, thirsty for that video game. Yeah.Palsh 34:51 I didn't care about girls back then. I just cared about more video games. Just thinking about that power ofGP 34:57 the power of what was your favorite position back then? 64 cut that out.Jake 35:05 Nope. Three hands on the stick.Palsh 35:08 That's my joke on you need three hands to play an M 64 controller.GP 35:13 Yeah, we saw that name then way nowhere. Okay, so Doom 64. werewolf. What do you what do you think? agree disagree?Wulff 35:22 That's one I don't know much about unfortunately. I thought it was just gonna be Doom for in 64 so I didn't bother with it.Palsh 35:34 PC Okay, shut up.Wulff 35:36 No literally like I thought it was Doom like because I played it on. I think I played it at a friend's house on PC and then I had played it on Super Nintendo. So I was like, well, I played it on a couple of platforms. I don't want to play it again. So I didn't play it for in 64Palsh 35:53 Yeah, well that's that's exactly why I bought it because they'll say Oh, man, like it's a better version. No.GP 35:58 Wrong That's brilliant wrong. Was that Charlie Murphy? Wrong?Wulff 36:05 Or the tigers in Wow, wrong? Yeah.GP 36:10 Okay, but see like how great of a pic was that pulse bought the game because of two words. Doom 64 did not buy that game because of two words. Doom 64 I swipe left soWulff 36:26 hard.Palsh 36:30 Man. I practically hit super like all right.GP 36:35 I don't get that reference. I don't know super late.Palsh 36:38 I'm very single. We'll put it that way.GP 36:44 Okay, so, Jake, what do you do? I'm 64Jake 36:49 I'm actually not a fan of doom. I actually don't like the series at all. Although the recent PC ones that came with the reboots, those are okay but the classic do my never really cared for and there's a series of games on the 60 That kind of tried to bring over to the PC stuff. There's Duke Nukem and hexen. And I think XM XM hex n. That's a word was the better of those type of games that 2d sprites in a 3d world? I didn't care for Doom 64 at all. I did rent it. I played a little bit. I couldn't care for it at all. It is ugly. I'll give you that. I just also think it's a bad game.GP 37:23 Yeah, and I think Doom 64 was one of those games, where I watched my cousins play it. And I loved watching them like I could keep up with it. If I was watching somebody else, but the first time I tried playing it, it was like I completely forgotten what it was like to look at the game and could no longer keep up with it. So I played maybe 30 minutes of it and realize this is not for me to play. But it was entertaining to watch other people run and gun and blow up stuff. So I like it and the visuals are okay so long as I am not guiding the visuals. But that's that's just me say Take what do you ever is for this category? Ugly but great 32 or 64 bit? Okay.Jake 38:07 Hear me you Final Fantasy seven. I love this game.GP 38:11 I think that's a great choice Yeah,Jake 38:13 everybody loves family seven or at least people who were in that generation love probably seven. Today it doesn't hold up for sure I mean the pre rendered backgrounds and in the CGI very pixelated very under rez for today's time but even back in high school I played this game originally, the sprites and the overworld and the exploration areas like cloud looks like some kind of peanuts character mutated into 3d polygon. And there's no textures anywhere to be found any of the enemies practically It is one of the ugliest first gen 3d games I've ever seen. Like I'm talking marrow 64 Meg's father's sevens cloud look like fucking the Mona Lisa. This game is the only reason people like this game. is because of the FMV The video is very cool. And I love that story. I love the music, and the gameplay is fun. But it's ugly as hell.GP 39:09 No, I think I think that's, that may be one of the best because that's exactly right. And I think part of the reason Personally, I was so let down by the graphics is because the commercials that came out back in 97 for the games pretty much only showed the FMV it's the one so your hype for this and you're like, Oh my god, considering the last Final Fantasy with six leaps and bounds and you play it and you're like you said you're just playing to get to the next video. But somewhere somewhere in there you fall in love with it. That's probably like the earliest version of you know, people getting mad because of, you know, not showing gameplay, you know, because that wasn't the practice back then. You know, everybody just played the game because there weren't cutscenes like that. And now it's like the cutscenes look awesome, but let's see what the gameplay looks like you know, so you have gameplay trailers besides you Know the actual trailer? Well yeah, it's the video you ever been catfished by a video game? That's the idea right? The whole dating thing around again? Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I think that's a great observation and that is the cultural and historical significance of the Final Fantasy seven commercials. But if you go back and still because I did this recently if you YouTube the original Final Fantasy seven TV commercials I still get the same feelsJake 40:28 Oh yeah, the atmosphere is amazing and and said jump from snez to PlayStation you just so hyped that the game is going to look amazing and that we all love family six I think of this podcast and just yeah the sprite work and there's great the bosses look I'm awesome. It's graph as graphics are amazing because 2d, so you just really hoping that for the jump to 3d would be something amazing. And what they show you the commercials. Looks great. But that's maybe about 10 minutes of FMV the entire game.Palsh 40:56 YeahWulff 40:58 that's true. Wolfie what do you what do you think? Final Fantasy seven okay I'm probably in the minority here to where I'm not a huge fan of Final Fantasy seven that's not to say I wasn't when it came out I played 200 hours probably in that first go through where I did just about everything I think except killing Ruby weapon I even made a second Knights of the Round soGP 41:25 so I'm hearing you say you never beat Final Fantasy I'm playing I'm playing I'm playingWulff 41:33 now I I even made like I I enjoyed that game so much that time that I even made a friggin anime music video and I am V out of it back in the day with VHS like that was time consuming first I was dedication.GP 41:49 Yeah,Wulff 41:51 I still that's the only one I did. Oh no, that's not true. I did one with Resident Evil as well, but I really enjoyed that game the first time and then every time I've tried to play since I can't put more than like three hours into it before I'm just bored and walk away the game. Like even when I tried to play it a second time back then I was just like, man, I can't. So, to me the game, it hits some notes the first time other than that, I can't agree with that. It's an amazing game. I feel like it's just been overhyped so much. And I think it's also the fact that it wasn't my first Final Fantasy, a lot of people who love it, it was their first Final Fantasy, and that's often the case, but I will agree the game didn't look quite as good as I was hoping. But then I had spent all summer plans so he could n and Wild Arms and compared to Wild Arms. It was damn gorgeous.Palsh 42:47 Wait, you mean it's not pronounced suikodenWulff 42:49 crap? No. But yeah,GP 42:53 it's pronounced Wild Arms thatWulff 42:57 that jump from sprites. It makes It with those backgrounds and everything it even though they weren't pretty polygons by any means for the characters, it was still an exciting change of presentation that let them tell the story in a different way.GP 43:12 And I feel like with Final Fantasy seven they overcorrected the ship when they came out with Final Fantasy eight, with seven, the backgrounds looked more lush and detailed than the characters. And then they came out with eight. And the background was kind of put on the backburner, so they could focus on the sprites and the overworld for the main characters. So at least they paid attention and corrected a lot of people's biggest complaints. But yeah, I think that was a good good entry there. Were all four do you have for us in this category? 32 to 64 bit ugly but lovable Bushido blade? Yeah, we couldn't Bushido blade.Wulff 43:53 I'm not gonna lie. I was kind of a square fanboy back in the PlayStation era. So I was getting all their stuff. Like it I had bought total number one nobody got total number one, but I got Bushido blade and it's it's not what I expected it to be and I had so much fun with it. And my friends and I we would just sit there and play Bushido blade for hours just because the combat it was so intricate for as limited as it was, I mean you injure your opponent, but if you got a killing stab that was it that that match was over with. There was no health bars, it was injury or death. And you can even mess up your opponent by like throwing sand in their fat face like a dirty rapscallion and then taking advantage of it. It it was it was so much fun and even just unlocking it. The the I think it had a couple of hidden characters. It was totally worth it. Just there was a lot of nuance to the game. Play that you don't see in a lot of fighting games.GP 45:03 I'm sitting here I'm trying to remember exactly which one Bushido blade was. So it was it was a fighting game.Wulff 45:09 Yeah, to a degree. It was a weapons fighting game. And I think you actually got to choose between a few weapons to if I remember correctly. Yeah, you're right. What the cover looks like I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember this one is black and white with I think a big big red splatter on it is like a black and white pencil drawing or ink drawing of somebody and then a big red blood splatter bladeGP 45:39 I'm also Yeah, I google image that endure. Yeah, I do remember now. I'm sorry. Thank you.Wulff 45:44 But yeah, the the character models were not pretty that the locations are not very pretty. They weren't even very detailed. It was like one of them was a big courtyard of cherry blossom trees. And it looked like they just copy pasted the same square aware of the arena over and over and over and over the lawn from one end to the other until they got to the opposite wall.Jake 46:05 There was a wonky camera and that came for sure used to zoom way out or like really get really closeWulff 46:11 yeah cuz it let you run away from the your opponent pretty far right? Which of course just made the characters even more unreadable?GP 46:21 Yeah, yeah more obscure. But yeah, I'll be honest that sounds like a piece of crap well done that's not a good entry sick Jake, what do you think about that one?Jake 46:33 I love the game to me. We talked about this before the podcast procedure plays one of my favorite games of the PlayStation because it's not that many I played on that. The combat that one on one combat. I just love how most weapons strikes will like outright kill your opponent if they connect but there's all about the Perry system. And that's pretty unique for its time and there's not many games these days that have that same you know, do or die combat system. But I just love it when you thank you Nick's amazed leg that dropped to the ground. But they weren't dead. They still kept fighting while they're on the floor. I thought was hilarious. I loveWulff 47:07 Yeah, they'll they'll like drag one leg while like trying to walk with the other leg with this horrible limp and it's great.Jake 47:15 It's like Black Knight fight, right? Yeah,Wulff 47:18 you break their arm and it just falls limp. They should have made theGP 47:23 Black Knight like an unlockable character.Jake 47:26 I'll know your polygons off. It's great. I love it.Jake 47:31 The backgrounds I agree are bad. But there was a style to it though. Like the bamboo forest, the cherry blossoms it kind of felt like that martial arts, you know trope that's set up in a deserted field. A courtyard has been cleared away to warriors that battle. It had the style, but yeah, you're right. It did not have the graphic power and the textures to back it out.GP 47:54 And then in the background, you see just the opening scene from Ninja Gaiden taking place.Palsh 48:00 As long as that music from ninja guidance playing I'm down for it. I love that game.GP 48:07 Okay, so Polish What was your? No You got us at the beginning. Sorry I got Castlevania joke. Yes. And the wolf goddess with Bushido blade. Jake What do you got?Jake 48:21 We went seven manGP 48:24 that's right that's how forgettable of a game that is.Wulff 48:28 Bomb.GP 48:30 I know I'm just I'm drinking drinking my haterade tonight No, I The reason I'm selling is because I've got so many honorable mentions for this category for 32 to 64 ultimately, I've settled on one but Metal Gear Solid has not aged well. This is not my These are my my honorable mentions. Such a great game, full of story and a lot of amazing twists and turns, but even playing that way came out. The graphics took me out of it. Mortal Kombat mythology sub zero. The fighting in that I don't know if you guys ever played that the graphics were bad. The fighting style was decent, but the platforming was abysmal, but it was still oddly charming because it's sub zero in an open world type setting. But ultimately, I think I have to settle for ugly but with a lot of heart, Nintendo 60 fours, GoldenEye. It was going to be that or Superman 64. And ultimately, I just don't care enough about Superman 64 so GoldenEye because I love that game. I don't know how much of the actual game or campaign I ever played through. I know I've watched it wire to wire with my older brother, but the four person you know, challenge mode was my entire experience pretty much with the 64 like that and Mario 64 and not much else. But he did great Yeah well but I mean even if you guys ever played like the giant head hack or you know code for golden it came on game was so yes DK mode so incredibly ugly but so much fun and it for me it was one of the first multiplayer you know games like that What do you guys think about golden I polished let's start with you know you summed it upPalsh 50:23 I really can't add to it because it's just I want to say I loved it when it first came out but at the same like for graphics was but I think it was more just how you could shoot people in the crotch and they grab their crops and then fall over dead you know or it would tell you like give you the tally of headshots arm shots leg shots torso other you know other was always the crotch shot so right yeah, but I mean the graphics as much as I want to admit I thought they were amazing. I think it was more the gameplay itself soGP 50:59 no slough Rizzoli. I'm still still playing that from an unfinished game that we started back then. That's impossible. Well, what do you think about GoldenEye? Ah,Wulff 51:11 yeah, a, it didn't have a whole lot of texturing I think the majority of the the texture quality went to the characters faces, but not their models. So the game itself though, was an absolute blast. It wasn't a whole lot to look at, which is probably for the best because it I think it helped it run a little smoother. There were a lot and 64 first person games that made me gave me headaches or made me dizzy, something like that. Man, I spent so many hours in that game with friends after school. We just go to somebody's house and play for like two three hours that day and then do it all over again. The next day. It was crazy.GP 51:54 Well, and it was just good enough of a game to make you want to hate your friends. Oh yeah, only for a short for short amount of time because like you said the next day, you're fine. Or if you were mad at somebody, you were only mad until you shot them in the crotch and then you were squareWulff 52:10 that that Mario Kart 64 games that end your friendship for the day. Yep. And but it's fine tomorrow.Palsh 52:18 Yeah. And then you started all over again with the next match.GP 52:20 Yeah, we should we should set up a multi person. tournament or like cast of if we can figure out a way to do that either like Mario Kart orGP 52:30 golden I think would be a blast. There's a PC version. I think actually, if GoldenEyeWulff 52:34 And isn't it awful?Jake 52:37 Okay, just likeGP 52:42 Okay, cool. So Jacob, what's your take on GoldenEyeJake 52:45 wolf said I pretty much nail on the head with the low character Polly's or low Polly's link character models, the triangle shaped heads, it reminds me of that music video Dire Straits money for nothing. We're just Bismillahi low polygon models and it's just terrible plusses against 64. And hey, I love the system. I love Nintendo but they had the fog problem like the jungle level and the Russian level it just the design to get around the graphic failures. They brought in more fog, just more fog. And they do that all these games and it's just does not work for the game at all. But it's a fun game. I used to play multiplayer like everybody else. Proximity mines is my favorite weapon. I love that. Yeah, I love the game and I love playing it but you're right. It's it's ugly as dirt.GP 53:31 Yeah. Do you know who I killed more with proximity mines than anybody else yourself? Yes, me. I find my short term memory man. I try.Palsh 53:40 I tried to lure people into it without setting it off myself. And was very unsuccessful.GP 53:46 Shit went to the to the point of the fog. And to kind of again, put this all in the same packaging as the Tinder and the dating things. They do the same thing in nightclubs. You know dim the lights a little bit and put into more fog, it'd be fine. So we've all fallen victim to that it's okay. Alright, so on to the other side of that coin. Let's now examine the beautiful games that are completely without any other merits. Next time, well maybe not next time but in the upcoming episodes on presby to cancel. Let's go around and restate our names a group of rapscallions and tell everybody where they can find us. Jake, you want to start us off?Jake 54:33 Sure I'm sick Jake, you can find me on Twitch and Twitter. And I guess hereGP 54:39 Wonderful. Thank youPalsh 54:41 push. You can find me here most of all, and I also stream very sparingly on Twitch as well under pulse 109 pls h 109.Wulff 54:52 Okay, very good. And well. You can find me streaming on Twitch or here or occasionally posting on Twitter. werewolf w ar EWLFFGP 55:04 awesome and I am guy prime. You can find me here on Twitch under the retro therapy or on YouTube, Instagram or Twitter as the retro therapy, everybody until next time, thank you so much for joining us.Jake 55:21 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last ancient on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 55:42 a do againSpecial thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Quick! It's 11/11! Make a wish! Yes, that's right, it's one of the twelve days of the year that the way Americans write the date and the way the rest of the world writes the date match up! And this day is extra special for some reason because 11:11 is the time you make a wish! (Which I'm realizing now I don't know the origin of. I've never thought to look it up. Is it just a cute middle school thing? Who knows. Okay back to third person.) Anyway, this episode is about Ocean's 11 and NOT wishing. Ocean's 11 is a good movie and we actually talk about it in relation to Star Wars which is wild?? Mike debuts a fantastic new game called Eleven Degrees of SepEleven and Josiah finds his true calling in life. Its really quite something, you just have to listen to it to experience the full grandeur of the game. If you have any comments or suggestions, you can email us at agoodpodcast@gmail.com. Or hit us up on Instagram and Twitter @howstarwarsisit. You can also follow Mike @MikeGospel and Josiah @TheJosiahMan. And don't forget to rate and review on iTunes, or wherever you get your podcasts! And if you REALLY like the show, feel free to check out the link below to support us in a monetary way! We love those dollars and cents baby. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

In this episode I review over my embarrassing week 7 NFL pick results. AND I DIVE INTO HOW GIANCARLO MANAGED TO GET 11 OUT OF 14 PICKS CORRECT. Which I'm definitely not bitter about. And we dive into week 8 NFL betting picks. My money pics were down last week and lost me five bucks but I plan to strike back with a vengeance for this week. READ MORE AT sportsexchange.us

In this week's episode Ken and Mo discuss how essential it is to LIKE and LOVE your partner. In today's world it seems every one is chasing LOVE and skipping right over TRULY LIKING the essence of who they are dealing with. Which I'm turn could lead to an early demise of something that could have cultivated into a great and everlasting LOVE! So sit back relax and enjoy the discussion PEACE & POSITIVE VIBES.

Shownotes: Have you ever wanted to do something but failed to do so because of the excuses you’ve had for yourself? You might have said you don’t have enough time, or that something else needs your attention. This is something that you can easily resolve through an online marathon. The whole idea is to help you get into a healthy habit that will make you productive and will make you so much better in general.   Hello and welcome to The Traveling Introvert. Today I am going to talk about how I'm doing a marathon, but not a regular learning sort of a marathon. I'm doing an online marathon and I want to talk through the experiences that I've had because I've done this twice now. So the idea behind this online marathon is that you have five key areas that you concentrate on. You have sleep, fitness, nutrition, most important, work. You know what? I've forgotten my last one, so let me look it up. Planning, and do you work with a team online and you get points for planning your day, hitting your fitness girls, hitting your nutrition goals, hitting your sleep goals, and then doing your most important work. So the thing behind the most important work is we get so caught up in our day to day lives of just doing life, that sometimes things that are really important to us get left behind. So one of the times I did this marathon, my most important work was continuing to write my book. I have a couple of books that have been on the back burner for about nine months. I've been doing a little bit here and there but I haven't been consistent. So the whole point behind the marathon and is that you do at least 10 minutes on your most important work per day because that 10 minutes per day ends up being a lot of time, it ends up being over an hour per week and if you do up to 100 minutes worth of your important most important work per day, it leads up to a lot of time. I ended up writing half of a book basically the last time that I did this particular style of marathon, so the most important work. So what I learned is that for the sleep patterns, I don't regularly go to bed at the same time for various reasons. It could be for travel, it could be I'm attending an event, but I put in plans that I know I could achieve, you want wins, quick wins that you can get. For nutrition, it was eat a piece of fruit per day and to help me make sure that I would get to that, I made sure that my fridge was stock to the Sunday before the marathon started, with fruit that was easy to eat that I liked. It could be strawberries, it could be cherries, it could be an apple a day. I just put a piece of fruit because if I put, eat an apple a day, it seems more of a chore but if I just put fruit, that gives me a variety of things to choose from that then I can say, "Well I had a handful of grapes that was eating fruit for the day." For fitness, you try and sort of look at a wide range of things that you could do. So it could be, I will either run, or do cardio, or go for a walk in the park, or go to the gym, or I will cycle at least 10 minutes per day and that can be your fitness goal, even stretching, yoga, whatever it might be, it counts towards your fitness goal. So one thing that we've learned as a team is that some people like to get their most important work done straight away. First thing in the morning they'll go, they'll get it done, get it knocked out because then they find they don't have as much control over the rest of their day and things happen, fires happen, clients happen and then they never get back to their most important work. What I have found is that happens, but I'm not the best in the morning, so me trying to do my most important work in the morning is a no win for anybody but I've, because of this, have realized when I'm most productive, when it's good for me to do things. I've started to get into a habit of one thing. I discovered a really cool app to go to the gym called Zombies, Run! Which I'm a little in love with, I haven't yet coughed up for the paid version, but we'll see. The thing with this marathon is it's supposed to get you into habits and because you then fall into a habit, you're using less glucose to make decisions. The less decisions you have to make in your day, the more things that you can do. So the whole idea behind this is to get into a rhythm, get into a habit that makes you feel good and it's better and it gets your most important work done. Your most important work can change from day to day, from week to week but at least you have that feeling of accomplishment that hey, I did a hundred minutes of coloring today. I did a hundred minutes of self-care, I did a hundred minutes of gardening. There's one person who's done a hundred minutes of setting up his new home. He just bought a new place with his partner and he's setting it up because moving is one of those things where, because life is happening at the same time you are moving, I definitely know people who have boxes that haven't been opened in six months since they moved because they just haven't gotten round to it. So this is the things that people use for their marathon. The marathon is done with a company called Ultraworking, who I love and I love working with them. They do many other things, but I just wanted to talk about setting habits and how sometimes your most important work can get left behind just because of life. So my challenge to you moving forward is think of what your most important work it is and what can you do for 10 minutes per day towards that most important work and what a difference that can make in your life. Thank you for listening. This is Janice from the careerintrovert.com, helping you launch your podcast or your book as an introvert.

First thing's first, I'd like to apologize about the sudden jump in audio around the 50 minute mark, I fucked up and had the wrong settings on the recorder. Which I'm real bummed out about because I've been looking forward to this episode for almost 10 months now. On this episode I sit down with Raniel of Wednesday. He was actually the first person I met when I first got here. This meeting was the catalyst to this whole series actually. For this episode we talk about Wednesday, the importance of upcycling, social issues regarding the environment and what we can do as individuals to change in the world. One important topic I'd like to highlight is where we discuss the role, responsibilities, and obligations streetwear brands have, if any, toward the general public when it comes to pressing matters. These are my favorite types of episodes because we get to highlight the opinions creatives have and the issues that matter to them most. It's informative, educational and worth a listen. Thanks! Again, I'm sorry about the audio issue. I really wanted this to be good because I feel like Raniel is a key figure within the community and his opinions on these topics are important and worth hearing. Wednesday in itself, I feel is very inlined with the Art School Taught Me's ideologies of pursuing truth, a better future, and providing a platform for issues worthy of discourse. — Raniel would like to thank: Vince and Mil of DBTK Bryan Sochayseng, Paulo Reyes, and Lex Celera of Monday Off Cleo Colon, Aaron Lim, Argie Alcantara and Jap Regala of Wednesday Marvin Conanan and Sara Martinez of PURVEYR George Balobalo of Bawal Clan Kieran and Kirsten Francisco Dustin Calde Jeg Nealega, Lean Torres, Robert Pabiling, Joshy Pascual, Pusangkalat, Vector Tears, Angelo Alpasan, Joshua Villanueva, Heaven, and Boris Garcia of Season Pass.

What happens when you get master distillers from two largest rivaling brands together? Actually, some pretty good jokes. Fred Noe, Master Distiller at Jim Beam, and Jeff Arnett, Master Distiller at Jack Daniel’s, take the stage at Bourbon and Beyond to field questions asked by Fred Minnick. They talk about BBQ, celebrities, mash bills, the Lincoln County Process, and if Jack Daniels is actually a bourbon. Bourbon and Beyond 2019 will take place September 20th through the 22nd so if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today’s podcast, go get yours at BourbonandBeyond.com. Show Partners: The University of Louisville now has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at business.louisville.edu/onlinespirits.  In 2013, Joe Beatrice launched Barrell Craft Spirits without a distillery or defied conventional wisdom. To this day, his team sources and blends exceptional barrels from established producers and bottles at cask strength. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Check out Bourbon on the Banks in Frankfort, KY on August 24th. Visit BourbonontheBanks.org. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about drinking in moderation. What kind of music have your brands been part of? What is your BBQ connection? What is the history of your distillery? What is your mash bill? What is your proof point off the still? What do you think of the Lincoln County process? How do you train your tour guides? Tell us about Gentleman Jack. Tell us about Jim Beam. Is Jack Daniels a bourbon? Do you ever feel competitive against each other? What does your average day look like? What was it like to hang out with Mila Kunis? What celebrities are connected to Jack Daniels? How often do you introduce new products? 0:00 Hey everybody. If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is an online program that can be completed in as little as 15 weeks and will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry. It's offered by the AA CSP accredited college of business. And this certificate was developed in partnership with industry experts to be one of a kind and it's going to prepare you for your next adventure. Learn more about this online program at business.louisville.edu/online 0:36 spirits Why is that? Why your barbecue sauce the Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. America's Got Jim Beam in it that's why 0:47 you made for it. And have you had the jab he had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do. Um, no. I mean, if you had a VDD like Tyson Yeah. 1:00 add Whiskey and anything it's good for 1:16 everybody welcome back. This is Episode 214 of bourbon pursuit. I'm one of your host Kenny and buckle in strap up whatever it is because we've got a lot of news to roll through. Kentucky al has announced the release of batch number three rye this Kentucky out Kentucky straight rye whiskey carries a 10 year age statement and will be bottled at 114 proof in the press release Dixon dead man who's been on the show previously and episodes 27 and 160 has assumed the title of Kentucky Al's master blender, but he commented, there is a lot of older juice and right number three, but it's the 10 year old stocks that really give it that richer, thicker, syrupy mouthful and bring the blend forward. And as you know by listening to this 2:00 That the youngest whiskey in a blend is the one has to be shown in the label. So this will be making its way out to major markets across the US this month with a suggested retail price of wait for it $199 and 99 cents. Last week I had the opportunity of joining the fine folks over a liquor barn here in Louisville to select the very first of not just any barrels, but the very first barrels from a newly launched single barrel program. From bullet bourbon. We had the opportunity to tour the grounds and do some blending for fun. And during that blending process. There was one that just blew me away. I picked it up and I just knows that and I couldn't set it down. I just kept smelling this bourbon and I kept tasting and I told the master Blender whatever is going on here with sample number six. Just give me this single barrel and call it a day. Come to find out. They gave us samples of 20 plus year stencil well a stock that they had sitting around to just have some fun with blending. But you better believe I took no part in 3:00 lending that in savored every last drop. It was a tease, but a special treat nonetheless to have that experience with those folks there. Then we headed down to the barrel tasting room where we had different barrels and different bottles with different mash bills and different strains to come away with a total of three different barrels. And these will be available at liquor barn locations across the state of Kentucky in a few months, and I'll be sure to let you know when they do drop. Last week we had the opportunity to head over to Bardstown, Kentucky, where we were in a very unique opportunity to select two barrels of Elijah Craig from six that were rolled out. For anyone that has been on a quick pic before you know that three is usually the standard. We are fortunate that the heaven Hill team pulled some strings and got us a six barrel lot. We came away with an 11 and a 12 year old bourbon and both were just killer at barrel proof. But we also proved it down to us bottling proof of 94 just to make sure it's still held up and of course it did look forward to these going on sale to our 4:00 Patreon community in the upcoming few months, and a special shout out to keg and bottle in Southern California for making this all happen. Find out more about our barrel pics and what we have going on@patreon.com slash bourbon pursuit and you can find out more and get bourbon delivered to your door from keg and bottle go to keg the letter in bottle.com. And speaking of barrel pics, we had one go on sale this week, our riff you like a hurricane from new roof is going to be available to purchase to our Patreon community. Now you've heard it on the podcast already but we will be in Frankfurt at bourbon on the banks next week, August 24. Go get your tickets. We hope to see you there because we're going to have our own booth will be talking about bourbon pursuit. However, we will also be sampling our pursuit series for all those who haven't gotten the memo yet. And speaking of pursuit series, it's now official. We will be bottling our first Kentucky bourbon next month that will go on sale sometime in the October timeframe. And we're ecstatic to be the first time 5:00 let you know that we have partnered with Will it distillery to bring this experience to you? I know it's still surreal to even hear myself say that we're partnering with Will it and we purchased two barrels of their high rye bourbon recipe that will be bottled as pursuit series. Cats drink non chill filtered the works, you know how it is in this high recipe. It's not even available to liquor stores or distributors that are selecting their own bullet family private state pics right now. So we feel super excited and super lucky to be able to bring this as a one off offering of what we're able to do. And we selected not just one but two of these barrels two months ago and they just landed our bottling facility this week. We're going to be the first independent bottle of Willett distillate and who knows how many years and we've got more news to announce with this but we're gonna have to make you wait just a little bit longer until we cross our T's and dot our I's. Now today's podcast it was recorded last year at bourbon and beyond in 2018. 6:00 Since we were there, sort of in a passive capacity, we had one session, but we didn't have the ability to kind of record. We got this after the fact and that means we don't have any video. So if you're watching this on YouTube or Facebook, I'm sorry. It's like we're going back one and a half years before we started doing video. But if you're on the road or you're running or you're just listening to audio as usual, then just continue as normal. But as you know, verb and beyond is just around the corner. It's taking place next month in Louisville, Kentucky from September 20 through the 22nd. The festival has expanded from two to three days and you will get the chance to see a lot of familiar faces there. Ryan and I will both be moderating panels. And you've also got the entire roundtable making a presence. Jordan from breaking bourbon, Brian from sipping corn and Blake from bourbon are all leading their own panels and workshops. Of course, you're gonna have Fred Minnick there too. It's an opportunity to drink some bourbon, listen to some bands, go listen to a bourbon workshop or seminar then go back out there and rock out was the headliners. 7:00 This is covered in a single ticket price. So if you want to be there in person to hear sessions like today's podcast, go get yours now at bourbon and beyond.com. We'll see you in Louisville. Also, let's toast a bourbon to the weather gods and hope for no rain and clear skies this year. Now, let's see what Joe from barrel bourbon has for us today. And then you've got Fred Minnick with above the char. 7:25 Hey everyone, Joe here again. In 2013. I launched barrell craft spirits without a distillery and defied conventional wisdom. To this day, my team and I sourcing blend exceptional barrels from established producers and bottle a cast strength. You can find it on the shelves at your nearest retail store. 7:41 I'm Fred making this is above the charm. This past week in the Philippines, a lawmaker put forth a bill to ban the sale serving and consumption of alcohol and alcohol beverages and streets, pathways, plazas, alleys, sidewalks, parks and parking areas. They're building 8:00 leaf is is that this will be a proactive response in the growing problems of alcoholism in the Philippine. And this is a quote directly from a doctor, their alcoholism and violence have clearly become key public health issues that require urgent attention. Hence, it is imperative for the country to initiate a national policy to curb alcohol consumption in public places in quote. So here's the thing Philippines, this has been done before. And it didn't work, prohibition in the United States basically open the world to the mafia. And it also showed that it didn't really curb drinking at all. What it did do was it increased the sale of bad liquor, and people would die from drinking the equivalent of ethanol or gasohol. And today when we see areas where there are dry counties, you have moonshiners, so people will find a way to drink 9:00 And I'll also say this, that the efforts to ban alcohol or alcohol advertising, they're growing. And they're growing because we have never really been able to figure out as a society, how to drink responsibly. So, when you're getting your fellas together your girlfriends together, think about this for a moment, you could be an example used of drinking responsibly. What does that mean? Well, Google drinking in moderation, you definitely don't want to get behind the wheel. To me, a big part of drinking in moderation comes down to the taste. I like to sip and savor and analyze every single molecule that's hitting my palate. And that's been a big reason why I've been able to develop my palate using mindfulness techniques. I also believe that there's a project out there called the mocktail project that would be great to include in your parties that would help push the drinking in moderation and someone sober, doesn't want to have a drink. They can have a 10:00 mocktail that's basically a folk cocktail. That's just as tasty as the cocktail would. And of course, the culture. We live in a society that does not want to educate young people why they cannot drink until they're 21. I have a five year old and he can tell you exactly why he is not able to consume the same bourbon that his father and mother do. Now, I'm not saying that parenting is easy, but I do think it's important that we educate our children that alcohol is not the devil. It is not some evil thing that demons cast upon you and the only way to not be caught up in its evil spell is to avoid it. And all honesty, if we just teach our children that drinking is bad for your body until you reach a certain age and your body is able to handle it. To me that is a more appropriate and honest and truthful way to bring someone up in this world. But 11:00 It's just easier to band stuff. Just ask the Philippines. And that's this week's above the char. Hey, if you have an idea for above the char hit me up on Twitter or Instagram at Fred Minnick, that's at Fred Minnick until next week. Cheers 11:18 gentlemen please take your seats to my left here is Jeff our debt master distiller for jack daniels. 11:28 And to my other left, Fred noe master distiller for Jim Beam. 11:37 Gentlemen, it is such a privilege and honor to MC what is an absolutely historic seminar, jack and Jim, what's the difference? The two world best selling American whiskeys. This is awesome. Now, both of you all have had a lot 12:00 of musical connections. Tell us let's see what the difference is starting there. From the music perspective. What kind of music has Jim been been a part of? Well, I guess the first one was my dad met Hank Williams Jr. So it got a little name that's a little name drop right there. And you know we've played with McGovern Gentry for a long time country. And then we're trying to ease into the rock a little bit with Nickelback. And in our latest buddy was a kid rock. So we've, we've kind of hit different john years of music so you like people who like to drink? mostly people like to drink Jim Beam. All right. 12:46 All right, Jeff. Now, I think there's a musician that's pretty well connected the jack daniels. What's the history there? Well, if you go back in our history, it goes all the way to our founder who was pretty world traveled considering he was born. 13:00 In a small town in Lynchburg, Tennessee, so he purchased some instruments he created a group called the silver cornet band had them play on the square in Lynchburg because he learned that music and whiskey and kind of go together. They're both very social. So he's kind of solved the connection. So it began very early for us, but I think the game changer and jack daniels history was back in the 1950s when Frank Sinatra first held up jack daniels on stage, he called it the nectar of the gods. Our sales doubled from 1955 to 1956. But he was a lifelong jack daniels drinker. It was after that as you started to see jack daniels not just don't rock stages and music stages, but also in a lot of movies. But Frank was loyal to death. He literally was buried with a bottle of jack daniels in his casket. So we were honored to come out with a whiskey that that honored his love of the brand a few years ago. Now there's also some photos of like Jimmy Page, drinking. jack daniels backstage, the Rolling Stones. 14:00 Lemmy from Motorhead slash from Guns and Roses. These are people that are pretty iconic, you know in the rock world. And definitely love jack daniels and we have we're very fortunate we've got a lot of people in music who love jack daniels. And once we find that out, we don't feel like they should have to buy jack daniels t shirt, so I write a lot of letters and send out a lot of T shirts to people to thank them for their love. Now, Fred, jack daniels used to employ a guy who made sure that Frank Sinatra always had jack daniels. Has Jim Beam ever done anything like that? What do you mean my chili Goblin like? So there was a gentleman from our buddies right? Frank Sinatra. Never he always had a case of jack daniels nearby. So they employed someone who basically from what I understand, just basically drove around with him made sure he was always with jack daniels are we when people are on tour, whatever market they're in, our sales force shows up and breezes them pretty well. So your 15:01 I haven't heard any of them complain about not getting plenty of Jim Beam. Alright, so that's, that's just a little touch on the music about what's the difference between YouTube. You're also both really big into barbecue. really big into barbecue. Now Jeff, I was a judge with you last year at the big jack daniels BBQ. Tell us about your big barbecue connection is jack daniels. Yes, we the fourth Saturday in October. in Lynchburg. We sponsor what we consider to be the Super Bowl of barbecue. It comes very late in the season for the Kansas City barbecue society circuit. But it's the top 80 teams typically 20 of those have come from outside the US. So they're representing countries like Switzerland, Estonia, Canada, Australia, England, but usually it's about 50 or 60 of the best us teams who show up there to win the jack daniels international Invitational barbecue is a great time. I know and I have served as a judge on 16:00 The shade tree only where I judged the major meat categories, but I could hardly walk. When I got up on the table that day. I did not pace myself very well, but 42 samples in about three hours and you better know what you're doing. So I know we've got some judges out here in the audience today who were looking on who can attest to that. 16:18 Now, Fred, you are a great barbecue pit man. You're also a great ham maker. You've got a personal connection to barbecue and why is that? Why your barbecue sauce? The Jim Beam barbecue sauce tastes so good. Because God ZM Amen. And that's why 16:40 you made for it. And have you had the jab. He had the jack daniels barbecue sauce. I'm sure they do know I mean, if you had ever 16:49 seen it, do you like their Tyson? 16:53 whiskey and anything? It's good Jeffrey, what's wrong with you? 16:58 Does anyone 16:59 know 17:00 Go customer for was over. Yeah, well, I had a plus or minus, you know, I should have said we should have a cuss word counter out there with you. You know, are you sorry, I'm a potty mouth. We can trust Jeff to be a gentleman but Fred boy, he can get go. I'm not a scholar, so don't even go there. 17:18 Now both come from very historic distilleries. Very, very historic. Tell us about how jack Daniel got started. Well, for those who don't know jack daniels life story. He was orphaned at a very young age, so he found himself without either his biological parents when he was a young teenager. 17:38 He was one of 13 children born to his father, one of 10 born to his mother, but he ended up moving away to work for his room and board on a neighbor's farm. That neighbor was a Lutheran minister and a farmer. More importantly, he owned the general store that still stands on the square in Lynchburg today, and of course back in the 1850s and 60s, small town general stores had to serve a lot of functions. 18:00 And that community had to be a small scale department store had to swear you picked up telegrams, but also would be the pharmacy of the community. So jack started out making medicinal whiskey for a Lutheran minister that was sold to the townspeople of Lynchburg at the general store. So from very, very modest beginnings, he was out there for at least a decade perfecting the craft and ultimately bought the distilling equipment and moved it to where we are today and that happened in the 1870s. So you know, in jack daniels history, other than prohibition every drop of jack daniels has been made from a cave spring in Lynchburg, Tennessee. It's one of the things I think that makes us really special. It's one of the reasons why we're is I think, consistent as we are. It's a great water source and and the townspeople of Lynchburg have made it their passion to carry on the mission of jack daniels in his absence since he he passed in 1911. And since since we've been able to become the number one selling American whiskey today. So Fred, you guys also 19:00 Have a lot of your connection to your family's history is also connected to the water. Tell us about that. Yeah, our, I guess my great great great, great grandfather Jacob been migrated into Kentucky a little place called harden Creek. And they were given away land to get people to come this way from the northeast. That's how bad things were back then they were given land away, just to come in here and grow corn. Yeah. And what is now the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Jacob came down, got his parcel of land. He was a Miller of grain. Then he found out making whiskey was a good way to preserve preserve the grain. In fact, come to find out is whiskey making skills were better and more profitable than the milling of grain. So our family started making whiskey. Oh jacobin. And then as time went on, and railroad came through, his son moved it to Bardstown. Then prohibition came along shut off 20:00 is down 20:02 and along with a lot of other folks here in Kentucky, and after prohibition, Jim Beam started the old Murphy barber distillery backup spot right down here in Clermont, where he had been milling are grinding stone, limestone rock, there was a big spring there and a distillery. And so that's where we got moved from Harding Creek to Bardstown to Claremont, where we are today, and eight generations later, we're still there. So we're looking at both water sources. They're both limestone filter, they both very come from really strong natural areas of limestone, filtered x, you know, great access to the water. So we have a lot of similarities here. You know, from a cultural perspective, they're both very involved with music. They're both very involved in barbecuing, you've got some cool barbecue competitions as well. You both got barbecue sauces, and there's a lot of connections there. And then the water is pretty much 21:00 The same. Now let's talk about the recipes a little bit. Now, Jeff, I love you. You'll tell me exactly what your recipe is your mash bill, Fred, what's the Jim Beam? mash bill? How many years you've been trying to get that out of me for it. 21:14 I figured this would be the moment you would open up and share it. Not when I put me in that coffin, they might give it to you. I'm not going to give it to you because I know you want it so damn bad. It's true. It is I do want to bend the thing is Fred. If I gave you numbers, they ended up to 100 would you know if I was telling the truth? 21:34 I would make you put your hand on my book and swear it's the truth. So it's the book of bourbon. It would have to be the truth. wouldn't have to be shit. 21:46 fishes out for you. It has been a long time. It has been a long time. So let's just say that jack daniels is very sharing with their recipes. With now they share it and you guys been very protective of it for me for years. 22:00 But we can say that you're at least 75% corn. 22:06 You're more than 51% corn. Now we're more bitty 1% or then 51% corn. I'm not giving anything. Okay, because pretty soon as at how much raw, oh, you'll be able to figure it out but give you with this with the gentleman from Tennessee tell us from the mash mill recipe for jack daniels. I will you know, with the exception of the raw whiskey that we've just introduced, that's a 70% raw 18% corn and 12% malted barley pretty much everything that you've ever had from jack daniels shares what we call the old number seven rest, right? It's 80% corn is 12% malted barley and 8%. Raw. And I know Fred doesn't want to talk about it. But I would just say in general, jack daniels is about a half to a third of the typical raw content of a Kentucky bourbon. So when you start to contrast and maybe some of the differences, obviously whiskey and Kentucky bourbon that it begins at the grain, there was a deliberate choice to maybe go a little bit less on this 23:00 Ice that would be associated with Ryan going a little bit higher and corn and make it a little bit sweeter. So jack tends to push out into that sweet range a little bit. I think it's fair to say, I think I know your grain bill, but I won't tell anybody 23:12 with a brother, Jeff, you can say it here. No one's listening. No one's watching right now. They used to talk about it. 23:20 Actually, Chuck Cowdery had a good story about your dad and the issue of bourbon plus over there, you gotta go check that out. But sorry, so are our mash bills. The recipes are pretty close, you know, so they're pretty close to being the same them. And then let's look at the distillation perspective. You guys are both using column stills both using column stills. What are you coming off the still at what's your what's your proof point office Still, we we actually all of our stills are made out of copper. So there are columns still each is equipped with a blur, so it'll be a single pass but a double distillation process. We target 140 points. 24:00 roof and with the still design that we have, we can maintain that plus or minus one proof point. So we have a really tight range around our target. So 131 to 139 would be the range 140 is the target. What is your office still proof? Jim Beam? Yeah, that's where we'll change our taste is with distillation strength. But we go off the first distillation 125 second distillation 135. OK, so again, both very similar in distillation technique. And now med one med 132 to 140. And by law, they cannot go any higher than 160 proof. So that's actually telling you right there that they are deliberately going lower, so you can get some more of the characteristic from the grain in there. So they're both doing very unique things. And now 24:57 we get to that point where we start saying 25:00 A difference. Now, Fred, you you guys go and get Maple charcoal and filter your whiskey right before it right? No, wait, no, that's not Jim Beam. That's jack daniels. 25:13 Did you do any damn research before you? 25:20 Sometimes I apologize for my buddy here, you know, what do you think of the Lincoln County process? I mean, yeah, it's tradition. That's what I do. It's good. That's what makes them special. Well, do you like it? I enjoy what they do what they make. 25:38 So tell us about the Lincoln County process. And by the way, I didn't know I was trying to set 25:43 it up there a little bit. You know, even though Today we're in the second smallest county in the state of Tennessee, both by population and geography. You'll hear this charcoal Melling process often referred to as the Lincoln County process. So we're in Moore County, but don't get confused back in the 1860s lunch. 26:00 was in a larger county called Lincoln County. More county wasn't formed until the 1870s. But this was a regional variant of bourbon. It was just something that that popped up among local distillers and back in Jack's day, even though we're the only one you'll find there today. Back in Jack's day, there were dozens of different distilleries littered throughout the hills around Lynchburg taking advantage of the limestone water that we have in abundance there. But they began to charcoal filter 26:29 right after they would distill the whiskey and before they would put it in a barrel they would filter it through hard sugar maple charcoal became the variety of wood that was most preferred. People have asked me before the jack us any other different types of wood other than hard sugar maple and I wish I could answer that question. I think if he were here today, that's probably one of my top questions that I would have is what all did you experiment with before you settled there, but I will tell you this about hard sugar maple it's an indigenous word. It's all throughout the hills around Lynchburg. So it's it's a 27:00 easy to find, even after 150 years that we've been out cutting it and burning it for charcoal. The key advantage that I see from it is that it's a very low ash wood. And we're going Of course, we're going to take our whiskey through that. So we don't want a lot of ash coming out of the charcoal getting into the whiskey and going into the barrel. Today with modern technology, we could process that away if we needed to. But what I noticed is that there's really not much in the way of ash that comes off of it. So oak actually has quite a bit of ash. Maple does not so jack was not just known to use hard sugar maple in the charcoal mellowing process, but he felt that it was very important to change it frequently because he recognized that it was like a sponge and eventually a sponge will get full and get saturated. And so you need to do more than just pass through charcoal, the charcoal needs to be fresh enough to make a difference. So we're tasting our events every week, changing it out on the frequency necessary to make sure that it's making the difference removing the fatty acids cleans up 28:00 The grainy knows it comes off much lighter, sweeter on the foot, both on the palate and also on the nose. 28:07 Fred, I don't know about you, but I heard I listened to the process and I've seen it before a million times. And it just sounds like so much more work. 28:18 I mean, do you think that's why in Kentucky that they stopped using that process? We're just a little lazier probably 28:26 wouldn't have gotten around or in the 1700s. I mean, look at them. Oh, but I'm not really. But now. I mean, that's just that's what Jeff and them do. And I've always done it. So we use it. We used to do it in Kentucky. You know, the the bill distillers actually used to do a similar process in the 1800s. It just did not. It was not very popular here. And so it went away. We did some charcoal filtering after aging. Yeah, to kind of smooth out some of the whiskies back in the old days, but now we've done some different different techniques and filtering now 29:00 Your tour guides Jeff. They like the lumps and mortar rounds toward Kentucky. And they just say this makes us better. Kentucky bourbon. Yeah. Now I gotta say as a Kentucky and although I tried to be neutral and is my skin crawls a little bit when your tour guide start making fun of Kentucky now what do you trade? What he traded him over there? Well, of course I think it's friendly competition. I think it forces us both to be the very best at our game. And I think people when when we feel like we need to step up our game and mind our P's and Q's to make a better product. You know, I know that we've had people who've come and taking the tour jack daniels who've recently taken the Kentucky bourbon trail and some of them have come up and tell me that I asked the tour guide. They wouldn't say which distillery it was. But you know, why isn't that y'all don't charcoal mellow like jack daniels does. And the standard response you'll get is that all hail that's, that is nothing but a shortcut. And of course, I looked up shortcut. I looked up the definition of IO and it's amazing guy 30:00 was Fred know, well supposed to say shortcuts are supposed to save you time or money or both. And it's something that we invest days in that we spend over a million dollars buying wood and burning it and replacing it. So it's it's something we're pretty passionate about. But it's to Fred's point, it's one of those things that makes a Tennessee whiskey unique. It makes it worth exploring. The same way I think, you know, no, to Kentucky barbers are pretty much going to taste the same. This was something that was a regional choice to make Tennessee whiskey is different. And it's something that we feel like we perfected over the years and that we're pretty proud that we still do today. All right, let's go through our tasting here. The one on your lap if I'm correct, is jack daniels. My right so we can be? Yeah, the one on your left is jack daniels. For us up on stage is the one that's closest to you. Are you going to be You got it? 30:49 I got so we're serving here is a gentleman jack. Can you tell us a little bit about gentleman jack? Yeah, of course as a Tennessee whiskey, we charcoal mellow and we were talking 31:00 about that process being somewhat different than what they do in Kentucky to make a bourbon but that's right after we distill whiskey and right before we put it in a barrel, it slowly passes through 10 feet of hard sugar maple charcoal. So that's this is the distinct step that we do that makes jack daniels at Tennessee whiskey with gentleman jack. This was our first new whiskey since prohibition we introduced it in 1988. It was the only whiskey that we've ever done. We had charcoal melt it twice so it gets one pass of charcoal before it goes in the barrel it gets another one after it's been fully matured in the barrel and before it's bottle. So this is the double mellowed version of jack daniels. And what you'll notice about it is that it has a very distinct absence of oak finish. For people who a lot of times if people struggle with bourbon or with whiskies in general it will do it will have to do with the aftertaste of oak, some people find it pleasant, that's what makes them like bourbon for other people. It's a block. It's a reason why they can enjoy it. So gentlemen, jack was literally meant to be an approachable form of whiskey. 32:00 Using charcoal all natural this is. This is all water grains, barrel and charcoal. So there's nothing artificial added in here. But this kind of displays the art of mellowing by doing it twice. All right, Fred, what do you think? I'm Dyson idea. What do you been doing the whole time? I've been smelling that I All right. Yeah, that's fine. 32:21 I think I drank the whole damn thing. 32:25 That's bullshit. Yeah, when it comes when it comes to this one in particular, I often describe it as being very, very clean, 32:33 uncomplicated, but it has almost a citrus banana nose on it has an absence of the earthy wood notes in it. Very clean and light. The great Lincoln Henderson actually had a big hand in the development of gentleman jack he did Lincoln work for brown Coleman for 40 years. So between the people of Lynchburg and all the the whiskey making expertise we have at Brown Forman, which of course includes some great bourbon brands and now also scotch whiskey and a new Irish whiskey. 33:00 Brand we we cover the whiskey world pretty well today except with the exception of Japanese whiskey. We even have Canadian. So we're a whiskey company at our core. So Lincoln Henderson is the founding master distiller for both angel's envy and Woodford Reserve. He's in the bourbon Hall of Fame he passed away in 2013. great man. So there's a little bit of a bourbon iconic figure connected to that whiskey now let's taste a little bit of Jim Beam here. This is the this is the one we see Mila Kunis talking about all the time. 33:33 This mask about you know the person this is the world's best whiskey their words not ours, according to see. Yeah. So what let's look at the Mila Kunis and a little bit but tell us about what we're drinking here with the Jim Beam black champion. Black is our gym being Nashville. Which I'm not going to tell you Fred. I know. 33:57 You're not one. But we do. We aged long. 34:00 RGM been white label stays in the barrel for years. This is a six year taste profile. So we're putting barrels that are older than six, some that are six, and some are a little younger than six. That way we keep the product on the shelf with a domain curve. All right, I got it. I got interrupted here. I gotta interrupt you. Okay, there wasn't once upon a time it had an eight year old age statement on there. If you go back farther, it had 101 months. 34:29 History he was ready for me damn right. 34:32 Fred you remember we've done this ship before? Yeah. 34:36 You ain't sent me out man. I might. 34:39 I might look dumb, but it's just a disguise. 34:43 I still you know, the thing is, it took me a while to get over by still buy it. I'm glad to see it. But the big thing on this ad it's 86 proof. So it's got more age, higher strength. So gets a little bit more of what and I think bourbon is all about no more word. 35:00 Which I did notice gentlemen jack doesn't have that much wood on the nose and finish. But I mean if you want a little more the if you like the oak, then you know the Jim Beam black is more than the GMBYI Let's take a taste. You didn't do that good talking to you in the jack daniels Did you? Yes sir. Oh you did I miss that. You want to watch it? Should you always try to set me up? I'm not trying to set you up. So now here I am trying to set you up. You're setting me up. Here we go. No, I'll give you the my spiel is a drink thing. I'm drunk enough to give me that loaded. Sorry. 35:34 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 35:39 Hey, it's Kenny here. And I want to tell you about an event that's happening on Saturday, August 24. Because I want to see you in historic downtown Frankfort, Kentucky at bourbon on the banks. It's the Commonwealth premier bourbon tasting and awards festival. There's live music and over 100 vendors of food, beer, wine, and of course, bourbon. But 36:00 Guess what even will be there in the bourbon pursuit booth. You can check out all the events including tastings with the master distillers that you've heard on the show before and the People's Choice Award for the Best bourbon out there. You can get your all inclusive ticket for $65. Plus, you can join on the free Friday night event. Go and check it out. bourbon on the banks.org there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now more than ever before. 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Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 37:24 Is jack daniels a bourbon? 37:26 Well, no, I mean, let's look on the label. You see the word BOURBON on her anywhere. It's in the North American Free Trade Agreement. 37:36 I political Oh, man. 37:40 Come on. JACK. Is jack daniels a bourbon? You know, according to NAFTA? Yes, it is. Oh, there we go. Thank you so much for coming. If you want to trust if you want to trust the view of our government, you know, you'd have to say that it is if you want to make your own decision about that. That's fine too. But if you look at everything in the federal 38:00 codes that define what a bourbon whiskey is. There are no exceptions when it comes to what jack daniels is our grain bill in the fact that were made in America, our grain bill, our distillation proved the fact that we only use new barrels or even make barrels for ourselves as a whiskey company. The only way to do that there's nothing that would disqualify us. But there's always been this argument that well, if you go to charcoal mellowing, it does distinctly change the spirit. Yeah, it changes the nose. It changes the mouth feel of it. And the actually it was the US government. Back in 1941. Who petition jack daniels This was after prohibition it ended. They wanted us to change our label from jack daniels, Tennessee whiskey to bourbon, they were trying to kind of go around and clean up who's operations and what they were being labeled as and they said, we've looked at your process. There's no exceptions. The what defined is bourbon, so why not just re label yourself so they submitted samples before and after charcoal mellowing, my salespeople actually offer those educationally today. 39:00 And they tasted it. This was the alcohol Bureau in Washington DC there actually was such a thing back then they tasted the product. 39:08 Government, they wrote us a letter, and 1941 that basically says we've tasted your product. And we have to agree that you don't have the character that's typical of bourbon whiskey. Therefore, if you want to label yourself a Tennessee whiskey, we won't contest it any longer. And of course, the US government has a way of changing their minds. So we can we've kept a copy of that letter just as evidence that we don't want to revisit that. We feel like the arguments been one. But we all we also say that it gives us hope, because it's the one evidence that we have in the last 75 years that our US government got any decision right. So we take that one 39:44 political angle. 39:46 You don't get me in trouble jail. Fred, I know is going to get me in trouble. So Jeff, 39:54 do you ever get tired of people asking you that question? Is jack daniels a bourbon? No, no, no. 40:00 Really I think as long as people are curious, that's part of the battle. You know, for the longest time whiskey from the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s whiskeys were all the rage. You know, the whiskey cocktails were what people ordered. But then we saw some pretty lean years as whiskey brands, the 70s, or the 80s 90s and 2000s. Were not necessarily so kind. So I think just having people to be bourbon curious. 40:26 Whiskey curious. 40:29 As part of the battle, you know, I always say if we can make whiskey interesting, collectively, but the rising tide will raise all ships. So I feel like jack daniels success doesn't necessarily have to come at the expense of Jim beam's. And I think probably Fred would say the same. That we can both have extremely successful brands because we we do have unique flavors, we have unique brands. And that's going to appeal more or less to different individuals. But I think just having people be curious about whiskey is the biggest part of the battle if they're open to trying it. I think they're 41:00 Something in the whiskey category that are going to like, all right, Do you guys ever feel competitive against each other, like you want to own the well over the other? 41:10 You know, the thing that, you know, the guys in production, were buddies, sales guys on the street. That's another damn store. 41:21 I mean, I'd have to agree. You know, Fred. Now, this is very rare that we would be on the same stage together. But we met about eight or nine years ago, in Berlin. It was amazing, because I think that was Fred's first comments. That means like, we're a state apart, and we had to come all the way to Germany to even meet. So we, we were at the Berlin bartenders convention and had a chance to actually we were representing American whiskey versus the other categories of global whiskey. So we decided against the devil Yeah, instead of having the fence between us. We were actually on the same side of the fence there. So we were we were in violent agreement I remember about the importance of limestone water and mixing up grains and using new 42:00 barrels, making it all natural not using colorings or flavorings and things of that nature. So, you know, there's so many things that are common about Jim Beam and jack daniels, of course, the one variant being charcoal mellowing, and people can decide if that's right for them. But I think as long as they're willing to to order a whiskey, there's a good chance that they're going to like something there. There we were, essentially, Jeff and me against the world. I don't think we did pretty damn good. 42:28 Well, we were lucky, because it was in Germany, and Jim Beam is pretty strong in Germany. And so all our sales people were kind of on one side and they were probably a little drunk. I think. 42:41 I think there's one thing we could agree to I actually have some friends who are what I call Doomsday errs, you know, who created fallout shelters who got Mr. ease and, you know, bottled water stacked up to the ceiling. And a lot of them have basically told me that I'm not I'm not hoarding cash. I'm basically putting bottles of jack daniels. 43:00 Whiskey and stuff like that because if the currency fails, they're absolutely certain that a bottle of whiskey is always going to be worth something regardless of what happens. 43:11 But but but Baka would not be. Yeah, I think if we go back to bartering, it's gonna be good to be in the whiskey business. What do you say? 43:19 Bam, right? You get more with a bottle of whiskey and you can handle the money. I guarantee it. 43:27 Well, gentlemen, it's been a real pleasure here. This is such a rare opportunity to have these two on the stage. I would actually like to take some questions from the audience how bad it would you like some light shirt from folks like that some questions? 43:42 Anybody have any questions out there? 43:45 What is a regular day for Fred? No. And Jeff Barnett. 43:51 I get up about 630 here down the August 1 thing, look at emails is like every other person. So do 44:00 Deal with meetings conference calls. And then I get to have fun and go down to the distillery. taste a little white dog right off the steel and then usually hit by the lab and taste some as liquor and then hang out at our visitor center, shake hands, take pictures, sand bottles, and then hit home but then the day they send me to 44:25 your liquor stores and bars, all days signing bottles, taking pictures, doing presentations, I'm sure Jeff's when he's on the west side. I'm usually on the east. 44:37 That same place. 44:39 You can see who's been ahead of you when you go into a liquor store. You see bottles on the shelf that have been signed by Jeff Arnett or Jimmy Russell or whoever is it well shit, I'm definitely behind him. You know, don't put dates on them so you don't know. Or maybe x coming. I'm not going to store and see bottles son from the last visit. And I think what shipping 45:00 Selling enough 45:04 one too many 45:06 I got out they don't let you get away. You know I think the the one word in that question that that puzzles me the most is regular I don't know that I've ever had a regular day as a master distiller because every day is it's different to me I feel absolutely blessed to work for jack daniels you know I'm a native Tennessee and argue that is probably the best known product from our state so have to have any hand in working at jack daniels to me was a dream job. But 80% of my time is spent in Lynchburg. The one thing that I'm most fortunate about is that I don't have to travel between facilities we make every drop in one spot using a water source which allows me to keep everything as consistent as I feel like it needs to be. It allows us to leverage you know, employees who have you know, several generations of experience making whiskey I think that I'm not the strength of jack daniels it is the people of Lynchburg who've committed over the years since prohibition to 46:00 Keep the brand going and growing. But I do spend about 50 to 60 days a year out on the road. So, you know, you become a little bit of a 46:09 celebrity in the world of whiskey. You know, it's amazing what passes that celebrity, you know. But you know, to to a whiskey fan, they want to meet you, they want to get a photo, they want to get a signature. And that's it's always an honor to do that. But we are sold in 170 countries today in 10 years. I've actually by the end of this year, I'll have visited 39 countries so cover a lot of the ground in a few days of the year. So let's talk about celebrities for a second. Let's go to what's it like spending time with Mila Kunis? My one man 46:41 I mean, it could have been worse, you know? Now Mila she she came here to Kentucky a couple times and we hit it off right off the bat. You're gonna love this story. I might as well go on and tell it. Surely I won't get any trouble since I've already cursed a little bit going on with Mila first came. They wanted to make sure that our first 47:00 meeting was on film. They didn't want us to get to know each other. And so she came to our home there in Bardstown. She was in the house. They were getting her hair and makeup wardrobe. You know, I pretty much do all that stuff myself. I don't I don't have hairdressers that go with me, kind of no reason to me anyway. My wife went into the house and was talking to me over there and she had her dog when Mila and her boyfriend at that time, Ashton Kutcher had to put her dog sleeping on Neil or something. So she got pretty emotional was holding Sandy's dog. And she said, I'm a little nervous to work with your husband. And Sandy said, Why? She's a walk curse a lot. 47:45 And my wife said, You're good. 47:48 She's a no you don't understand. I say fuck a lot. 47:53 She said, You're still good. 47:58 Sandy came out 48:00 And she came on was laughing I said, What's the funny? So Amelia is nervous to work with you. I said Why? She was he causes a lot, so it's no big deal. I know what she's worried about saying fuck around you. So we did our little meeting. It was on film, everything was cool. Cut, take a break. I got her ear and I said fuck it. 48:22 We're gonna get along just fine, big boat. 48:25 That's how I was. I was tell someone that after having met Fred I realized he was truly a master of the English language because he can take the F bomb and use it as every form of the English language in one sentence. 48:40 Yeah, all right, Jeff, as I play bartender here on stage, why don't you tell us one of your celebrity stories? Oh, goodness. Um, you know, we're very fortunate. Like I said, we've had a lot of people especially in the music industry. We were fans of jack daniels. So especially in country music, a lot of people and they think of, of Tennessee. If they don't 49:00 Think of jack daniels when they think of Tennessee I think they largely think of country music so I've had a chance to spend time him he 49:08 music table we even work, you know had a chance to hang out with with Zac Brown and 49:14 and his wife and his children and also now with Eric church, and to find out that his wife literally grew up about 30 minutes from my hometown, and what real and really good people that they are. I think that I think that's the most surprising thing that I find is that celebrities are not a lot different than we are, you know, some of them maybe are but the ones that I've had the privilege of meeting I've been always really surprised at just how humble and what good people they are. And of course if they love jack daniels even better, we got plenty to talk about if they do. I know you. You are partial to the ones that favor Jim Beam and I definitely have a I feel like a big fan base out there both in Hollywood and all over the music industry, jack daniels as well represented there. All right, everybody. Let's have another question. Who's got a 50:00 Question out here. Yes, ma'am. Right here in the back. coming to you with the microphone. 50:06 How often do you introduce new products? And when will your next one be introduced? 50:12 I'll answer for jack daniels. You know, how often do we come up with new products? You know, for the longest time we didn't, we had one brand that carried us for over 100 years. We introduced gentleman jack in 1988. We introduced single barrel in 1997. We didn't introduce any new products from jack daniels for about 14 years. And that wasn't necessarily due to our lack of interest of offering new products. It was really more about is the market even wanting a new product from us? Are they happy with what they have, but as as whiskey has taken off again, I think that's what we're seeing has changed the most is that people do want to try a lot of different things, including the loyal jack daniels people and that includes, you know, our newest grain bill that's come out is raw. So we have two different versions of it to me that's that's our new product and for this year, that's what we're going to continue to focus on. 51:00 Because to me, I think it's very different for people who maybe have never been a fan of jack daniels before. Maybe one of the reasons is the fact that we're very low and raw. And if you do like a high raw whiskey, we now offer that, you know, jack daniels, you know, like I said, we're very fortunate we have just a rabid fan base. And I think besides Harley Davidson, we just recently got named the brand that's most likely to be tattooed on someone. So, you know, people have asked me why, why did you come out with a rye whiskey? And it's like, well, my fear was that there's going to be this big burly guy with a tattoo that says jack daniels on his arm, and he's gonna taste rye whiskey this out. He really likes that. So we need to give him a jack daniels option. That way, he's not going to have to go and get his tattoo taken off. So but you know, to answer that question, we've come out with one new product a year for the last seven years. So we've gone from three to 10 in a really short period. So we're just kind of trying to maybe decompress a little bit from doing that and focus on what we've got out there. We feel like we've got a really strong profile. 52:00 There's something in there that out of those 10 that I think everyone's gonna like. 52:05 Now you were about to dispute the tattooed thing for No, no, no, no, I asked him. I was going to ask Jeff for his was, oh, I couldn't show you on stage. I'm sorry. 52:17 Between me and my wife, you're lucky, you're lucky. 52:21 Now, we do a lot of innovations. 52:26 My son actually, Freddie, he's he's got a project who just had a baby, by the way, or his wife had a baby. Right? Congratulations, grandpa. 52:36 Paul, I was holding Booker last time. 52:39 It was kind of cool. But Freddie's got a brand called Little Book, which so my father called him from the time he was a baby. So every year, he's going to make a straight whiskey or straight spirit blend. And so every year it's going to be another chapter into chapter one was 52:59 either 53:00 No easy. The second one's no easy task. First one was the big easy, but he's taking spirit streams from within the beam Suntory portfolio around the world, which he's got a pretty unlimited canvas. When you look at all the whiskies we have which, with this year, he did a 40 year old Canadian 16 year old Canadian rap, an eight year old, Kentucky straight raw, 53:24 all cash strength, just like his grandfather. And so we're doing innovations, probably one or two a year. And then we'll within our play knob Creek will go we've done single barrel rise, single barrel Bourbons, can strength. We do different things, all limited releases, because folks like Jeff said, they want different stuff. They don't want the same thing over and over and over. If we see something that really hits hard, like we did a base right and dark raw, which was, oh, I've got an idea that we could maybe execute for next 54:00 years festival Why don't we do a blend of jack daniels and Jim Beam for bourbon and beyond 2019 54:09 I go say won't ever 54:12 talk somebody 54:15 and they'll tell you what how drunk were you to when you agreed to 54:23 have your people talk to my 54:26 so you get this ball rolling Fred 54:29 should we have it for next year? 54:34 I would say this so I think it when you're looking at Tennessee and Kentucky you're definitely looking at some of the world's best spirits when it comes to whiskeys and you can't go wrong if you will explore around I think you're going to find there's something they're just gonna like. Oh yeah, for sure. So what you're saying it's better than Canada. 54:50 Well, it's different than Canada we have different rules. We have Canadian whiskey brand is 54:56 people like and more power to them. We got scotch whiskey brands. 55:00 get us in trouble. Yeah, we got Canadian. You know, I've recently become a fan of shared scotches oh you know students don't smoke repeat but I'm open to trying new things. 55:11 Well gentlemen, if you all if anyone in the audience has anything lab, I know you to do. I just poured you like four fingers there. Grab what you have a lap. Let's toast it to, to Fred know and Jeff Barnett chairs and now you all 55:28 chairs Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this episode, we bring our favorite bad lyrics from 1990 - 1999. One song from a group who don’t quite understand the meaning of bizarre.  And another from an artist who likes to rattle off a lot of ladies names in no particular order.   Episode2 What the Lyric – the 90s   [Start 00:00:00]   Becky Morrette and Matthew Seymour   [Music]   [Becky Morrette]: Welcome to what the lyric, the podcast that confirms, yeah, that actually made it to radio.   [Music]   [Becky Morrette]: Welcome to episode two of what the lyric where we dub into the really bad lyrics of the 90s. The 90s for me, that's when I graduated high school and went to college in San Francisco. So, let's see how much of the 90s I remember. How about you Matt?   [Matthew Seymour]: You know, I also don't remember much of the 90s, admittedly, for different reasons.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymour]: Particularly since I was born in 1990.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, Jesus.   [Matthew Seymour]: [Laugh] So I remember from about 95 on, and music was definitely not on my radar.   [Becky Morrette]: That's about when I remember it because I had stopped with the weed and the alcohol by then.   [Matthew Seymour]: You stopped? Once I found it. I never stopped.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my God. That's another story. Off mic in case my parents are listening. Yeah. My mother, side note, my mother, by the way, one time we were, she's going to love that I'm telling this. We were leaving a mall when I'd come home from school. And I looked over and I swear to God, the people in the car next to me were smoking a bowl. And my mom goes, I said, Dad, “are they smoking a bowl?” My father, being a high school teacher, knew the slang and my mom was like ´´smoking a bowl? How do you smoke out of a bowl? It's a bowl, I don't understand how you smoke out of this´´. And my father, very quietly said ´´You brought it up, you explain it´´. [Matthew Seymour]: [Laughs]    [Becky Morrette]: I didn't. I didn't at all.   [Matthew Seymour]: God bless your parents.    [Becky Morrette]: A bowl? What? I don't understand how you smoke out of a bowl.   [Matthew Seymour]: How do you do something like that.   [Becky Morrette]: That is Ridiculous. What do mean? you can't. there is now to smoke it get something in a bowl. So, yeah, so that's enough about my mom.   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: she's going to kill me. Yeah.   [00:02:12] inaudible   [Matthew Seymore]: What do you remember of the 90s music scene?   [Becky Morrette]: So at that point we, I, we I remember, Oh, this is a good one. I remember seeing I think it was house of pain and biohazard and somebody else on the same bill and that that was a big I don't know. That was early on in the night in the in the 90s. I remember like Smashing Pumpkins. I remember Nirvana, all that all that stuff. Plus, I also remember In synch, the Backstreet Boys, the Brittany's. Oh, my God.   [00:02:53] inaudible   [Matthew Seymore]: Now you are talking my language.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh yeah. Oh, it's bad. It's just bad.   [Matthew Seymore]: Who loves the 90s? We love.   [Becky Morrette]: I totally love the 90s and the 80s. There were a few in there that I was like, wow. I when doing the research for this, I was like, whoa, I forgot ice ice baby with ninety-one.   [Matthew Seymore]: Wow.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: I did not realize this.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. I mean. Hello. Talk about awful.   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: But yet everybody knows it. And when that shit comes on everybody's up there dancing along.   [Matthew Seymore]: I’m already dancing.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. You can’t not. You see you see the hair also M.C. Hammer.     [Matthew Seymore]: What? What?    [Becky Morrette]: Yes. Can't touch this.   [Matthew Seymore]: As in Yeah. Which was why in I’m.   [Becky Morrette]: 90? I think. Right on there.     [Matthew Seymore]: Wow!   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yep. 90. I also saw him in San Francisco because he's an Oakland guy. It was right when he was kind of switching over to try and become hardcore. And then people were yelling. I felt so bad for the man. People were yelling stuff like You ain't shit. Ice-T is better. Like, whoever it was at the time, I can remember. And I was like, come on, man.     [Matthew Seymore]: It's M.C. Hammer, give him give him a break.   [Becky Morrette]: You had those hammer pants? We all had hammer pants.   [Matthew Seymore]: We all had photos of it.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, my God. I still remember mine purple. Love those freaking pants.   [Matthew Seymore]: They looked comfortable.    [Becky Morrette]: They were. I totally want some more now.I'm not going to lie because those things are great for Lounging. The Hammer, I'm trying to think who else was there? There was a bunch, but yeah those I was like, for real?   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh yeah. The number one song when I was born was Sinead O'Connor’s,  Nothing compares to you.   [Becky Morrette]: Let me just say, but that's Prince.   [Matthew Seymore]:Yeah but this was Sinead O'Connor's cover.   [Becky Morrette]: I now I know. It's Prince though. I love Prince. I can't help it.   [Matthew Seymore]: You are not feeling the Sinead O'Connor?   [Becky Morrette]: I do. You know, I have that album. She had a couple other good songs on that.   [Matthew Seymore]: Didn’t realize it.   [Becky Morrette]: But I cannot remember. Yeah, I said album I actually have a CD. Album/Cd it's all the same to me.   [Matthew Seymore]: [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: So which way did you skip? Did you go like metalish, like nirvanai? Or did you go pop?   [Matthew Seymore]: So here is how things shake out for me. I basically grew up Amish, not actually, but very little musical knowledge.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, my God. Please tell me you did some like sort of. Biblical church song.   [Matthew Seymore]: I knew a lot of, oh my gosh, I could tell you so many Christian single, like Pop singles.   [Becky Morrette]: Strippers.   [Matthew Seymore]: Savage Gardens.   [Becky Morrette]: Which I believe I saw in concert. I'm not sure, though, that's been a while.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh, I'm going to have to think it's Stacy. Oh, I need to think of. There were there are a lot of people who crossed over.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, they were.   [Matthew Seymore]: from Christian Pop to   [Becky Morrette]: Oh yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: just General pop.   [Becky Morrette]: Creed.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yes! There we go.   [Becky Morrette]: I don’t think there was a crossover at all.   [Matthew Seymore]: It was just.    [Becky Morrette]: I think that guy was a horn dog working every angle to become a pop guy.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, Katy Perry did the same.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, my God. I didn't know that.   [Matthew Seymore]: But that was not in the 90s.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my god.   [Matthew Seymore]: So my musical knowledge basically spanned from the Beatles to   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [00:06:16] inaudible   [Matthew Seymore]: Clearwater Revival. Those were my parents   [Becky Morrette]: classic years.   [Matthew Seymore]: the entire Gap of 80s and 90s up until my sister started driving, and that was when I got the taste of  In Synch, Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Savage Garden, 98 degrees.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh! yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: That grouping. She left.   [Becky Morrette]:Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]:Like graduated left town. Another gap, I started driving, and that was 2007 onwards, so.     [laughing]   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my God that's awesome.     [Matthew Seymore]: I had to do some research for this and I did choose one that like, was something I definitely encountered on the radio quite a bit,   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my god.     [Matthew Seymore]: Everyone encountered on the radio.   [Becky Morrette]: I can't wait because I wonder if I'll get it because there's you know, some blacked out moments in that decade for me.   [Matthew Seymore]: I Fully expect that within the first three lines you will know exactly what song this is.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh. Okay. You may get mine.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh, I hope so.   [Becky Morrette]: You may. I have two but, the one is really easy. And that was ninety-one. And I had to look back at my yearbook and I thought I think this was our song, like the song that we chose, which would have been frightening if it was, but it wasn't. It was just as bad, but it was not.   [Matthew Seymore]: Wait, the song you chose for graduation?   [Becky Morrette]: No. For like you have like for our yearbook. And oddly enough, there is a yearbook back there. It's not my graduation year, but it's one. It's  hilarious, I think it's eighty nine, So it doesn't play well into the 90s. But you the senior class got to pick like favourite car, favourite colour, best song, their favourite song. And the one that I think we chose was I want your sex.   [Matthew Seymore]: Amazing.   [Becky Morrette]: Why not? Why not? Why wouldn't a bunch of horny 17 & 18 year olds pick I Want Your Sex by George Michael, who at that point no one thought was gay, which is another, I don't know how we missed that one as well.   [00:08:24] inaudible   [Becky Morrette]: White kids in upstate New York. No one gay. What?   [Matthew Seymore]: This was a New York City for crisis sake.   [Becky Morrette]: No. No. We all thought RuPaul was a woman.   [laughter]   Some people did.   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: So, Yeah. So, I don’t think I’m going to do that one. I think I'm going to do the other one.   [Matthew Seymore]: What’s the year?   [Becky Morrette]:This one's ninety five.   [Matthew Seymore]: Ok.   [Becky Morrette]: Maybe. Maybe.   [Matthew Seymore]: ok I was aware.   [Becky Morrette]: You might. Ok.   [Matthew Seymore]: I think I'm ready whenever you are.   [Becky Morrette]: There is a video. This might give it away, but I’m going to say it anyways. The singer looked a lot like The Rock with more hair. All right brother Palaye in the back. Sweet Xena in the front. Cruising down the freeway in the hot, hot sun. Suddenly red, blue lights, flash us from behind, loud voice booming. Please step out onto the line. Palaye preaches words of comfort. Xena just hides her eyes. Policeman taps his shades. Is that the Chevy 69? How bizarre? how bizarre? how bizarre? Which is the name of the song? By the way.   [Matthew Seymore]: Wait, I have not heard this song,   [Becky Morrette]: OK,   [Matthew Seymore]: Ever.   [Becky Morrette]: Just go ahead and look up the, Just look up, it's OMC, is the name of the band. How bizarre, is the name of the song? And you will know when I say he looks like The Rock, like he's related to The Rock, and he might be, Same eyebrows,   [Becky Morrette]: [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: Same build almost like, like The Rock with more hair. There is no way.   [Matthew Seymore]: This is unbelievable.   [Becky Morrette]: [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: I, Yeah. Look it up.   [Becky Morrette]: It's The Rock.   [Matthew Seymore]: This is exactly The rock with more hair.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: New Zealand musical group.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yeah. I think they, I thought it said they got to like number 20 or number 11 on the Billboard chart, I can't remember.   [Matthew Seymore]: WOW!   [Becky Morrette]: Just for the record, the other song I picked was from ninety-one, I want to sex you up, colour me bad, with two Ds because they were that bad.   [Matthew Seymore]: [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: That one is a is a dateline episode waiting to happen.   [Matthew Seymore]: I'm beginning to sense the theme of   [00:10:55] inaudible   [Matthew Seymore]: movements in your songs.   [Becky Morrette]: I haven't even, I didn't even realize it. This one not so much. This is just bizarre. Like in the title. OK, so we've got a brother Palaye in the back. Sweet Xena, Zena, I can't remember.   [Matthew Seymore]: It's New Zealand     [Becky Morrette]: It’s in the front. Yeah. Cruising down the freeway in the hot, hot sun. Now we're starting off pretty good. It was a summer song. I think it was released in the summer.   [Matthew Seymore]: Although I will happily say that I thought he was describing his haircut when he said that it’s like, what was it, Zena in the front,   [Becky Morrette]: [Laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: [Becky Morrette]: Brother Palaye in the back.   [Becky Morrette]: So, I'm still curious. Is brother like a biological brother? or are we talking like a Christian brother?   [00:11:34] inaudible   [Becky Morrette]: Like a priest kind of, you know,   [Matthew Seymore]: Very buttoned up.   [Becky Morrette]: Franciscan monk kind of situation.   [Matthew Seymore]: I’m still going with haircut.   [Becky Morrette]: It could be. Then suddenly red, blue lights, flash us from behind, so now they're getting pulled over.   [00:11:49] inaudible   [Becky Morrette]: Not so much a great summer song. And then they told them to step out of the car. Palaye preaches words of comfort, so he might be a priest or some sort of religious man. This is the one that gets me, Policeman taps his shades. How many police officers pull you over and go Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick? Right on their aviators. I don't know a whole lot.   [Matthew Seymore]: I just bought them today. Please compliment.   [Becky Morrette]: These babies cost a lot. And that's why I'm pulling you over, because I still need to get paid. How many then? Then the policeman ask us “Is that a Chevy 69’’?  And then the, the whole chorus is how bizarre? How bizarre? It's not really bizarre at all. If you were driving, doing something illegal or quite honestly in this day and age driving while black.   [Matthew Seymore]: I feel like, [laughs] I feel like this is their use of how bizarre is really akin to   [00:12:50] inaudible   [Becky Morrette]:Oh,   [Matthew Seymore]: [Becky Morrette]: isn't that ironic?   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: But you are like No, this really isn't it bizarre.   [Becky Morrette]: It’s not Ironic at all or bizarre.   [Matthew Seymore]: Once again or coincidental?   [Becky Morrette]:Oh, it gets bizarre, though. I will say. So, yes. So how bizarre they've gotten pulled over. Now the cop asked him. “That's a 69 Chevy’’?   [Matthew Seymore]: All right.   [Becky Morrette]: Seems like a reasonable   [Matthew Seymore]: Question   [Becky Morrette]: Question while being pulled over, followed by “Can I see your license and registration”? And also maybe is using the word bizarre wrong. But they're from New Zealand, they still speak English, so that's the same word in either.   [Matthew Seymore]: They should know by now.   [Becky Morrette]: Their country. Yeah. The next part is destination unknown as we pull in for some gas. Hey, back on track for a good summer song. Freshly pasted poster reveals a smile from the past. Ok.   [Matthew Seymore]: Wait. What?   [Becky Morrette]: Still kind of nice.   [Matthew Seymore]: Where is the poster?   [Becky Morrette]: I don't know. Gas station. Which seems a little weird because that could be a wanted poster.   [Matthew Seymore]: So we left the cop behind.   [Becky Morrette]: We've already dealt with the ticket or whatever it was.   [Matthew Seymore]: I see.   [Becky Morrette]: The pat down, I don’t know. We’re past that. We're moving on. We're getting some gas at this point. Maybe that's why he was pulled over the cop thought you guys are getting low on gas pull on over there. So now we get a freshly pasted poster, reveals a smile from the past. Okay. Here's where it gets bizarre. Elephants and acrobats, Lions, snakes, monkeys. What?   [Matthew Seymore]: Wait.   [Becky Morrette]: That's , the bizarre part for me. You have just now all of a sudden that, that's what's making you smile. Now, are we nostalgic because we went to the circus when we were a kid with our parents and oh, isn't that lovely? Or were we a circus performer?   [Matthew Seymore]: I'm inclined to believe circus performer.   [Becky Morrette]: So am I. Paylaye speaks righteous, sister Zena says funky. What?   [Matthew Seymore]: Righteous? Oh, my gosh. So he is, he's probably a priest.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Funky. I don't know if I'd say funky.   [Matthew Seymore]: Funky.   [Becky Morrette]: Funky. When thinking about elephants, acrobats, lions, snakes. And it's not even plural monkeys. It's just monkey. Yeah. Now we're back to the. How bizarre. Which is just starting to worry me a bit and I'm slightly starting to get a little creeped out.   [Matthew Seymore]: Someone's on a trip.   [Becky Morrette]: I'm starting to think this is like American Horror Story the circus version. Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: We could do another podcast series on.   [Becky Morrette]: We could on that creepiness. And then it goes, oh, baby, oh, baby. It's making me crazy. It's making me crazy. It's not just you. It's making , i'm crazy with this. What the hell is this song about? And then he goes there every time I look around. Every time I look around. Every time I look around, it's in my face. What is in your face? What I don't understand. What's in your face? Is it a bug? Is it? [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: Sunburn?   [Matthew Seymour]: I'm sensing an acid trip.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymour]: Like the cop saw some drugs, pulled him over. It was too late. They ingested all of the drugs on the car, pulled them over, and they were like “we should probably pull over, take care of some things”. And now he's like, “oh, my God, I'm going to die because im so fucking high”.   [Becky Morrette]:  Wasn’t that super Troopers? [laughs]   [Matthew Seymour]: “Because I’m so fucking high”.   [Becky Morrette]: Didn’t he do that in super Troopers? [Laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: With a funnier outcome. This? Not so much. Nobody's down. And things of maple syrup and this. There's just elephants and shit.   [Matthew Seymour]: Just a shit ton of LSD.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. And then it goes to so, ok It's in his face. My face says confusion. Ringmaster steps out and says the elephants left town, people jump and jive, but the clowns have stuck around TV news and cameras. There is choppers in the sky. Marines, police, reporters ask where, for and why. Palaye yells, We're out of here. Zena yells, Right on. We're making moves in start and grooves. Before they knew we were gone. Jumping into this Chevy headed for big lights. Okay. Now, where are the elephants? Is that the Ringmasters way? Polite, kind of calm way of saying the elephants are loose and they're stampeding through your village and town. What? What the fuck happened in here?   [Matthew Seymour]: See here again. I am going back to my drug theory and say that the Ringmaster is actually the poor gas station attendant who's like, “Sir, your card has been declined”. And the guys are Like, “Who are you”? Why are the elephants not here”?   [Becky Morrette]: Why is that pink elephant running around in a tutu? And what are those camera people doing? Okay, that's probably the best thing. Here is the last line before it goes back into how bizarre, how bizarre. It's making me crazy. Every time I look around, it's in my face. I'm crazy. The last line. Want to know the rest? Hey, buy the rights. Why? Why would I buy the rights to this pile of shit? This isn't even a good like treatment for a movie. I don't even know what. This isn't even a good poem. [Laughs]   [Matthew Seymour]: It barely qualifies as a song.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yeah. And you didn't get a second hit. So clearly, really no one wanted the first one, although we all listened to in numbers and be like “how bizarre”?   [Matthew Seymore]: How bizarre?     [Becky Morrette]: How bizarre? Doo doo doo doo doo, I think is how the bizarre? How bizarre? All right. Yeah, I know. And it's like I need to look it up. It might be The Rock.   [Matthew Seymore]: I feel like I have to love the shameless plug there at the end, because I mean, you know, like it takes it takes true artists. No. No amendment.   [Becky Morrette]: [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: It takes an artist to write good lyrics and put it to good music.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: It takes a true artist to just make any music and then say “Buy the rights”.   [Becky Morrette]: Here's the thing now. “By the rights”, I've had to listen to this song for free for years. It's just on the radio. Why would I buy the rights?   [Matthew Seymore]: So what I'm hearing is it hasn't worked yet.   [Becky Morrette]: No.   [Matthew Seymore]: Well, tell them to replay it.   [Becky Morrette]: And then one of my favorite lines that kind of relates to this is Dennis Miller. He used to say when he's talking about things or buy one, get one free and he said  “two of  shit is still shit. If they really want to screw you, they give you a three”. That's what I feel like this song is right there. They've just given us three for free and it's still shit.   [Matthew Seymore]: That is the highest level of praise   [Becky Morrette]: [Laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]:that we can give to OMC’s is how bizarre.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yeah, so that's my that's my 90s.Awful lyrics.   [Matthew Seymore]:I love it.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean I will say this is one of those cases where it's like I can project things upon it. So like on the yikes scale, I am giving it like a two.   [Becky Morrette]: It's like a choose your own adventure song.   [Matthew Seymore]: Exactly.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: I now, if there really are elephants am a little more disappointed, I just desperately want to see the music video in which he just high as fuck, walking in a gas station and then everyone else around him is like   [Becky Morrette]: I got to, oh man, I feel like the music videos I'm just driving around in a convertible. Well, that's boring. Yeah. Well, 90s videos. I yeah. I can't remember. I do, I do have a flash of The rock. It's The Rock's cousin. I don't know who he is, but I'm just going to continue to call him The Rock’s cousin.   [Matthew Seymore]: I cannot reiterate to look at that it   [Becky Morrette]: [laughs] it really does.   [Matthew Seymore]: because there's no other description for it.   [Becky Morrette]: I will put it up on the blog, but like a picture of The Rock and the lead singer on these side by side. Back in the heyday. And you will see that they are either separated at birth or really closely related. [Matthew Seymore]: Also this would be a great time to plug the blog.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh the blog? Yes, that would be at whatthelyric.com all spelled out and not. We'll go ahead and say that again at the end of the episode.   [Matthew Seymore]: That sounds lovely.   [Becky Morrette]: I'm so good at that. I forget to plug things. Yeah. So OMD, how bizarre. I've lived with it for well over 20 years now and it's still I still sing it in the car when it comes on.   [Matthew Seymore]: You still hear it?   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, yeah, yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: OMC, I sit OMD. I keep doing that.   [Matthew Seymore]: I don't.   [Becky Morrette]: OMD is another band, Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark is what that one stood for. Also, like 80s band, I think late 80s or early 90s.   [Matthew Seymore]: Come on.   [Becky Morrette]: But, Yeah. OMC, as in crap.   [Matthew Seymore]:  OMG for OMC. Oh my crap.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my crap I think is what it stood for. I don't know. 1995 yeah. Over 20 years I listen to this song and now I hear it come on I go “how bizarre”?    [Matthew Seymore]: how bizarre?   [Becky Morrette]: How bizarre? And then that’s it.    [Matthew Seymore]: So low on the yikes, but high on the bizarre.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: That is where I am feeling it.   [Becky Morrette]: I think you're right on that one. It's just weird. [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: It is. It is weird. I need to listen to this.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: And watch it.   [Becky Morrette]: You're going to go home and then you're going to be like is that How bizarre part gets stuck in your head with the little like hook that they have the doo doo doo doo doo doo, whatever it is. I can't I can't remember. But that will get in your head and it will burrow deep and will hop out at many different times. Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: I’ll be calling you tomorrow to be like fuck you introducing this song   [Becky Morrette]: [Laughs] how dare you and I never want to speak to you again. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.   [Matthew Seymore]: Amazing. Well, this is actually an excellent Segway.   [Becky Morrette]: Yes   [Matthew Seymore]: Into my pick, because it's also an Earworm.   [Becky Morrette]: OK, I'm ready.   [Matthew Seymore]: And just a wild hit across the board. So in the US, the song reached number 3 on the Billboard Hot 100.   [Becky Morrette]: Ok   [Matthew Seymore]: It’s from 1999, specifically April 1999.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh   [Matthew Seymore]: Not that that I'll give you much context, but what I found most interesting was that it topped almost every chart in continental Europe, and set a record by staying at number 1 in France for 20 weeks, longer than any stay at the top spot ever on the US or UK charts.   [Becky Morrette]: Ok. If the French liked it, I am worried it has got to be cheesy.   [Matthew Seymore]: Well, then I feel like we need to we need to get started to this because I really do think that you're going to get this at a moment’s botice.   [Becky Morrette]: Ok, I’m ready.   [Matthew Seymore]: I'm omitting the first line only because it says the name of the song.   [Becky Morrette]: Yes. No, it's all right. That's fair play.   [Matthew Seymore]:One, two, three, four, five. Everybody in the car. So come on, let's ride.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, my God. Is this Coolio?     [Matthew Seymore]:No.   [Becky Morrette]: Wait   [Matthew Seymore]: But to the liquor store around the corner, the boys say they want some gin and juice, but I really don't want a beer bus like I had last week. I must stay deep because talk is cheap.   [Becky Morrette]: Is it gin and juice?   [Matthew Seymore]: No. I like Angela, Pamela, Sandra in Reno.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, Oh, Mambo number five.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yes.   [Becky Morrette]: [Matthew Seymore]: [Laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: I can't believe I confuse that for Gin and Juice is the only because you said Gin and Juice. Oh, sweet Jesus. I'm so sorry. Oh.   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, Oh my God. Well, of course the French would like it.   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs] Again the highest praise that we can give to Mambo number 5.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh,   [Matthew Seymore]: Of course, is the French liked it.   [Becky Morrette]: what is that guy's name?   [Matthew Seymore]:Oh, do you want me to tell you?   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah    [Matthew Seymore]: It is Lou Bega.   [Becky Morrette]: That's right. Talk about a one hit Wonder.   [Matthew Seymore]: who is German apparently sold himself as   [00:24:39] inaudible   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah    [Matthew Seymore]: But 100% German.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, I believe he had like a zoot suit on in that   [Matthew Seymore]: He absolutely did.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh   [Matthew Seymore]: The entire thing.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, I wonder if he had worn wearing it for the seagulls in San Francisco that's no longer the store fronts.  It’s no longer there. WOW!   [Matthew Seymore]: This is just a hit for everyone. I mean, I've heard it played at weddings. [Laughs]Yeah.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. You can't not move to it.   [Matthew Seymore]: Exactly.   [Becky Morrette]: You hate it, but you're still going to swivel. Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: Everyone Loves the song. It's terrible. None of the lyrics make sense. Actually, let's look. Let's go back.   [Becky Morrette]: Let's dub into it. Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: So first, proving that he is at least able to count to 5.   [Becky Morrette]: Yep. That's good. In English, and he is German.   [Matthew Seymore]: It's not like he is Cuban.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: Everybody in the car, so come on, let's ride. That sounds fine.   [Becky Morrette]: Still fun summer song.   [Matthew Seymore]: To the liquor store around the corner. I'm like, so you got into your car.   [Becky Morrette]: Listen, in his defense, when I was in high school, we lived not that far from the high school. Like I should have walked. Did I? When I got a car? No, I did not. I would shovel the car out because I grew up in upstate New York. Shovel the shit off my car and drive to school.   [Matthew Seymore]: How many blocks?   [Becky Morrette]: Five. Five or six. Maybe. I mean, they're not like city blocks because it was upstate New York, but still maybe a half a mile at best.   [Matthew Seymore]: Follow up question.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah?   [Matthew Seymore]: Would it have taken you longer to walk to school?   [Becky Morrette]: No.   [Matthew Seymore]: Versus shovelling?   [Becky Morrette]: Not at all. Side note, I never dry my hair because I have crazy ass curly hair and so my hair would freeze if I walked to school.   [Becky Morrette]: [Matthew Seymore]: [ Laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: That is a good way to keep it in place.   [Becky Morrette]: And surprising, I never really got sick, but yeah, I don't know why. You know, if you had a car in high school, you were a bad ass. Mine was a 1980 Mustang, which was not a bad ass car. But, you know,   [Matthew Seymore]: you had it.   [Becky Morrette]: and I had it. So I drove. So in his defense, I get it.   [Matthew Seymore]: We’ll allow.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: This next part just baffles me. The boys say they want some gin and juice. Okay. You're going to a liquor store. That makes sense.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: But I really don't want to slash next line beer bust like I had last week.   [Becky Morrette]: Well, you're not, you're going gin and juice.   [Matthew Seymore]: But I'm like, I suppose but am like then are you just saying I'm not really feeling beer guys.   [Becky Morrette]: Maybe he's just the driver. He's the designated driver. He's the D.D. of this situation.   [Matthew Seymore]: But then he even goes on to say, I must stay deep because talk is cheap. Where does that fit in? Also, the hearing, hearing little Lou Bega say “I must stay deep” when he's about to lift a tremendous number of women.   [Becky Morrette]: I was about to question with the stay deep in reference to his buddies or like he's got to stay deep with his homies. He's got to get in.   [Matthew Seymore]: Earn the trust.   [Becky Morrette]: You know, he's gotta be right there with him. Or is he talking about the ladies he's about to rattle off?   [Matthew Seymore]: [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: I'm inclined to think the latter. So this is my Hashtag   [Becky Morrette]: [Matthew Seymore]: Me too Moment. [Laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: He likes apparently, Angela, Pamela, Sandra and Rita, which I will fully say those are not 90s names.   [Becky Morrette]: Angela is. I had a friend whose name is Angela. I have a couple I used to know a couple of Angela's.   [Matthew Seymore]: I feel like there needed to be more Ashley and Britneys .   [Becky Morrette]: Angela. What was the other one? Rita.   [Matthew Seymore]: Rita.   [Becky Morrette]: Rita, I don't know who the hell, Rita. Now he's trying to take a spin on the Hispanic.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah.   [Becky Morrette]: I'm Cuban.   [Matthew Seymore]: Trust me yall.    [Becky Morrette]: German\Cuban.   [Matthew Seymore]: Pamela and Sandra?   [Becky Morrette]: No, I didn't, no that was a smith.  No, I don't know the other two. [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah   [Becky Morrette]: I just had an Angela. That didn't sound right. I just knew an Angela.   [Matthew Seymore]: Was she on your soccer team?   [Becky Morrette]: She was not. Not at all. I don't think. Oh, my God. I don't remember everybody on the soccer team that's really bad.   [Matthew Seymore]: And as I continue, you know, they're getting sweeter. In what capacity? gross.   [Becky Morrette]: I'm hoping he means in like personality, but I'm willing to doubt that. I'm willing.   [Matthew Seymore]: He is staying deep.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, I'm willing to say the deep is in reference to the ladies. And eweh.   [Matthew Seymore]: so, what can I do? I really beg you, my lord.   [Becky Morrette]: Whoa, whoa.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah.   [Becky Morrette]: Whoa.   [Matthew Seymore]: Again, I think that's a call out to the Cuban community. I'm Catholic.   [Becky Morrette]: [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: Maybe   [Becky Morrette]: We could bring Brother Palaye back. [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: Hold on, so now we're bringing in the Lord   [Matthew Seymore]: As the lady.   [Becky Morrette]: The lord as one of our priests used to say.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, you have to bring him in because he wants to give the ladies enough time to sleep.   [Becky Morrette]: So, okay. Is he questioning like. Is he not gone for yet? Is he not done all these gone deep with all these ladies and he's like, please, lord, help me to remain the good man that I am and not take advantage of these ladies. [laughs]. I can't remember the rest of these lyrics.   [Matthew Seymore]: Or is the Lord basically being like, I want you to bang as many of these dudes.   [Becky Morrette]: I’m out.   [Matthew Seymore]:  Well I guess they are not dudes they are ladies   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: because I don’t think Lou bega is swining that way.   [Becky Morrette]: I don't think, I mean, his 90s. That was on the cusp of when you were kind of like do we come out? I can't even. so, ok So he's not really into the beer   [Matthew Seymore]: Busts   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: No beer butst, No.   [Becky Morrette]: No.   [Matthew Seymore]: But apparently other busts   [Becky Morrette]: yeah    [Matthew Seymore]: He’s very interested in.   [Becky Morrette]: And then he maybe that's his transition. And we just didn't get it quick enough.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah, I still don’t get it.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yeah, I don't. Okay.   [Matthew Seymore]: It's been 20. No. Oh my God, it has been. Yeah, It's been 20 years. It has been 20 years since the song came out.   [Becky Morrette]: [laughs] And it's still on the radio from time to time.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah   [Becky Morrette]: Okay. So we're not into the beer busts. we   [Matthew Seymore]: We are very into the ladies and staying deep in some capacity.   [Becky Morrette]: staying deep with the friends possibly, or the ladies maybe the friends are the ladies. That's why he's going.   [Matthew Seymore]: Ohh   [Becky Morrette]: This could be all about the ladies.   [Matthew Seymore]: But he does say that the boys say they want some Gin and Juice.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, well. So I had friends in college that I, it was a bunch of guys and my one friend would always call me bro because I had just become    [Matthew Seymore]: A bro.   [Becky Morrette]: A bro to them at that point because I didn’t have boobs or anything they did, they looked at me as like one of them.   [Matthew Seymore]: One of them.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. I don't know.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, it's totally fair. So he's brought in the Lord.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: Either to remain celibate or to gain graces so that he can bang as many of these ladies as possible.   [Becky Morrette]: Does the lord work that way? I mean, would you pray and go, “you know what? God, I need your help getting some”.   [Matthew Seymore]:  And then the priest says, do 10 nail marys.   [Becky Morrette]: [laughs] I'm not going to lie. There is a priest we go up to camp, there was this cabin that my grandfather built. He had a really thick accent and he would he would say male Mary, full of grace or the Lord be with you. And of course, as kids, we'd all get laughing.  So, yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, that's hilarious. So I think he’s also,   [Becky Morrette]: You know, I think he's I don't think he meant it this way, though.   [Matthew Seymore]: I think he's intending 10 Hail Marys in this. To me, so back to the lyrics.   [Becky Morrette]: yeah   [Matthew Seymore]: To me, it’s flirting, to me it’s flirting.   [Becky Morrette]: Ok   [Matthew Seymore]: So there is an adverb there   [Becky Morrette]: That’s where the English goes.   [Matthew Seymore]: It is just like sport, anything fly.   [Becky Morrette]: No. There is rules in sports.   [Matthew Seymore]: Not when he's about to nail a bunch of ladies.   [Becky Morrette]: there's rules in sports. I mean, there is like red flags and yellow flags in all almost like football, in soccer.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, this is a giant red flag.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: To me it’s flirting.   [Becky Morrette]: Well, again, English isn't his first language. Probably also why the French liked it so much. [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]:  I apologize to like any other French people who listen to this song to learn English.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh my God, that is not. Yeah,   [Matthew Seymore]: It's all , It's all good. Let me dump it, please set in the trumpet, not send in the trumpet. Set. Please set in the trumpet.   [Becky Morrette]: So they left him a like a note for the mixers of this this song like hey, when you guys are mixing this down, set a trumpet in here.   [Matthew Seymore]:  Set it in the trumpet. Which for me I was like, let me dump it. Which I'm like, oh. Curious choice of words don't like that. Please set it on the trumpet. It sounds like he's also fucking the trumpet.   [Becky Morrette]: Actually, what I get from that, if you go back to the beer bust [laughs]is that  it's all in his stomach now.[laughs]  so he's literally, dumping it. And then the slang term for like the Cuban\Germans slang for toilet is trumpet. Maybe that's what I'm thinking.   [Matthew Seymore]: He as had too much gin and juice. He didn’t want a repeat on the beer busts.   [Becky Morrette]: Yes.   [Matthew Seymore]: But now he is just puking away.   [Becky Morrette]: The beer bust has hit and he's got to find a bathroom Toot suite.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh, for a French   [Becky Morrette]: French.   [Matthew Seymore]: So maybe all the women are just the nurses [laughs]   [Becky Morrette]: could be   [Matthew Seymore]: who are caring for him.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: So I'll do the quiz.   [Becky Morrette]: Ok   [Matthew Seymore]: Do you do you remember who comes first?   [Becky Morrette]: It was Angela, Pamela. I can't remember the other Angela, Pamela. There was an S in there   [Matthew Seymore]: Think,   [Becky Morrette]: And then Rita.   [Matthew Seymore]: Speed and Miss Congeniality.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, Sandra.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yes.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Okay.   [Matthew Seymore]: Now, funnily enough, in the actual chorus, only two of those ladies make it to the list of things he likes a little bit of.   [Becky Morrette]: Here's a thought. Could he be a pimp? [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: [gasps] That would make sense. He's driving the boys around being like, please survey the good.   [Becky Morrette]: Here's my ladies. [laughs]   [Matthew Seymore]: You know, that does kind of fit. And then it's like if they don't, you know, it's all good. He let me dump it and then he's like bye.   [Becky Morrette]: and then kick him out, they go with the lady.   [Matthew Seymore]: That's Angela. Angela did not make the cut.   [Becky Morrette]: She might have been off with one of his boys.   [Matthew Seymore]: And that showed, well, neither did Pamela. So apparently, Angela and Pamela are very popular.   [Becky Morrette]: They're either big winners or,   [Matthew Seymore]: or just they're off the payroll.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: So if the first one is a little bit of Monica.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh, that's right. He switches them again.   [Matthew Seymore]: A little bit of Erica. Where? By my side, a little bit of Rita is all he needs a little bit of Tina is what I see, which I find very interesting because he's seen so many women up to this point.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah    [Matthew Seymore]: So Rita must be the big breadwinner.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh, yeah. She's raking it in.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. Monica, maybe they just changed their names to Monica and whatever the other one was because the other two names weren't really all that great.   [Matthew Seymore]: Angela and Pamela.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: No offense to any Angela and Pamela.   [Becky Morrette]: But at that, you know, they're not like big moneymaking names probably.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh no.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, No.   [Matthew Seymore]: Now I'm thinking, you know who I really want to get with tonight?   [Becky Morrette]: Although,   [Matthew Seymore]: Pamela.   [Becky Morrette]: Pamela Anderson.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh shit, okay, fine.   [Becky Morrette]: Sorry. Pam.   [Matthew Seymore]: We will allow it. A little bit of Sandra in the sign. So she is only she is out of commission for the rest of the year.   [Becky Morrette]: Either that or she's just the billboard to bring them in.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah. She is the pen out. [Becky Morrette]: Yep.   [Matthew Seymore]: A little bit of Mary all night long. So has gotten the nail marries.   [Becky Morrette]: Here is where I am offended. That is my mom's name. How dare you?   [Matthew Seymore]: Little a little bit of Mary all night long.   [Becky Morrette]: How dare you?   [Matthew Seymore]: Even grosser. Because, like, why are you having all of Mary all night long?   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, well, I have known men that cannot really handle all night long. You know, I am just saying.   [Matthew Seymore]: So maybe they should just go to be just in the sun.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: Small, small time period.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: Let it be a little bit of Jessica. Here I am. Which is weirder because that definitely feels like a sex.   [Becky Morrette]:  He just shows up. Hey Jessica. Here I am. That stalker.   [Matthew Seymore]: Stalker Lubanga.   [Becky Morrette]:  Yeah, right.   [Matthew Seymore]: A little bit of you makes me your man.   [Becky Morrette]:  Now, this is problematic because you don't know who's listening to this on yet. Male. Female. I could have my cat listening.   [Matthew Seymore]: And he is bestiality. What we are learning from this song is that Lubanga will fucking anything with a pulse.   [Becky Morrette]:  It is what it sounds like, yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: And then and then it says mambo number five. And I think there is that. Yeah. With all the bap bap   [Becky Morrette]:  But he missed it with the trumpets because that is where the trumpets go.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yeah, I now. But then he was like I'm going to plug momma number five. Very interesting fact. The sampling from the actual mambo number five gets played in the song and the person who actually wrote the original Motown number five was a co-writer of the song. Co-author. Yes. Songwriters, it was Damaso Perez Prado.   [Becky Morrette]:  That is probably Lou.   [Matthew Seymore]: I know, and then Lou Bega, they are two separate entities.   [Becky Morrette]: Are they?   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean, we can't prove it.   [Becky Morrette]: Are they now?   [Matthew Seymore]:  And then we go, back to you, John. Well, no, rather jump up and down and move it all around. So we're trying to dance. Shake your head to the sound. Put your hand on the ground. Take one step left and one step right. We are playing Twister.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, I know.   [Matthew Seymore]: One to the front and one to the side. Clap your hand once and clap your hands twice, wow! I remind you, one hand out on the ground.   [Becky Morrette]: One hand out on the ground, and we have now answered the question. What's the sound of one hand clapping?   [Both Speakers]: It is mambo number 5.   [Matthew Seymore]: And I desperately wanna watch the video, because then the lyric says, and if it looks like this, then you're doing it right. Which means at some point in the video…   [Becky Morrette]: I don’t think he is doing anything. If I remember correctly, it is him. It's a white background and a whole bunch of ladies dancing around. I don't think there's a specific dance that they're doing, but I could be wrong.   [Matthew Seymore]: Then Lou Bega has really fucked it up.   [Becky Morrette]: Well, I mean, clearly.   [Matthew Seymore]: So then. And speaking of fucking things, he goes back to going through. Monica. Erica. Rita, Tina, Sandra's, Mary, Jessica and a little bit of you makes me your man. Trumpet the trumpet, Mambo number five. Again, another instrumental break. And then he's like a little bit of Monica, Erica, Rita, Tina, Santa, Mary, Jessica, a little bit of you makes me your man. And lastly, but certainly not least, I do all to fall in love with a girl like you because you can't run and you can't hide. You and me going to touch the sky, Mambo number 5.   [Becky Morrette]: Okay, here is what I am sensing. We've only done two episodes. Very clearly. There is a me too movement situation that is happening in almost every shitty song that is popular.   [Matthew Seymore]:  Yeah. And I'll be honest. Like I knew this was skeezy going into it.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]:  But I have never once heard the lyrics cause you can't run and you can't hide. You and me are gonna touch the sky. Sounds like a murder suicide… No, it sounds like a stalker then a murder suicide.   [Becky Morrette]: Dateline. All of these songs like Colour Me Balance is a Dateline episode waiting to happen. How bazaar is just bizarre. These are all.   [Matthew Seymore]: So far you have had the only one that was not a hashtag me too moment.   [Becky Morrette]: Wait until next episode.   [Both Speakers]: Oh, that will be good one.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah. No, I can't even… Like they are all me too movement. I have not heard like the songs that I have found that I really like. These lyrics are shitty are typically because they're like borderline dateline.   [Matthew Seymore]: Oh yeah. I'd like to catch a private.   [Becky Morrette]: Oh God. Yes. Yes.   [Matthew Seymore]: Across the board.   [Becky Morrette]: Now we are on the on the yuck scale of things in the yikes scale.   [Matthew Seymore]: Yuck would also work.   [Becky Morrette]: Yuck / yikes on this one.   [Matthew Seymore]: The problem is like it is an earworm.   [Becky Morrette]: It is, and everybody will at a wedding be like one,   [Both Speakers]: two, three, four, five. [Becky Morrette]:  Mom’s up there dancing. Grandma is up there, shimmy and shaken. And no one is really paying attention to how awful   [Matthew Seymore]: These lyrics are   [Becky Morrette]:  Yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]: Which is very interesting because it is a crowd favourite yet no one is paying attention to this dude is literally just naming any women he wants to have sex with   [Becky Morrette]: Now that makes me think that I would like to write a pop song and just start rattling off men's names.   [Matthew Seymore]: Done.   [Becky Morrette]: I am going to work on that. That will be my next, you know,   [Matthew Seymore]: Next project.   [Becky Morrette]: Next project   [Matthew Seymore]:] join us for the next series.   [Becky Morrette]: Next podcast   [Matthew Seymore]: In which we collectively list the names of men you would like to have sex with.   [Becky Morrette]: Where we just start writing our own shitty lyrics.   [Matthew Seymore]: It cant be that hard.   [Becky Morrette]: Clearly not. Lee Croix I am looking at you post Malone. Sue, I'm going to say this is probably like a 3 for me.   [Matthew Seymore]: I will say the only thing that tone that down from being a 4 is dance ability. Like not giving a pass on the grossness of it, but I will say have a dance to this. Yes, will continue to dance to it? Yeah. But the lyrics are just bad.   [Becky Morrette]: Well yeah. It's like the Robin Thicke one. The Blurred Lines. It's the same feel. Not as rapey but the same feeling.   [Matthew Seymore]: So again tagline for momma number five, Blurred Lines but less rapey.   [Becky Morrette]: The 90s version of Blurred Lines, which is a little less, rapey.   [Matthew Seymore]: Have you wanted to listen to Blurred Lines but wanted to be less rapey? Have you tried Lou Bega.   [Becky Morrette]: But you did not want the over rapeyness of it.   [Matthew Seymore]: Check out Lou Bega mambo number 5.   [Becky Morrette]: He is into Blurred Lines with mambo number 5, and then work your way up to, yeah.   [Matthew Seymore]:  I am inclined to agree. This is a middle of the road. Yikes.   [Becky Morrette]: Yeah, this was absolutely a total. Oh yeah. 3. Oh yeah. Oh, it is making my stomach a little queasy now, I am going to have to use trumpet for toilet, from now on. It is just gonna happen.   [Matthew Seymore]:  I have gotta go to the trumpet.   [Becky Morrette]: Kids going to the trumpet. I'll be right back. I am going to play a little solo. This is just going downward from here.   [Matthew Seymore]: Quality material.   [Becky Morrette]: And on that note, thank you for listening to Episode 2. Please stay tuned. We will have Episode 3, which will be musicals. We're going to go deep into musicals. That was the wrong word to use there. After mambo number five.   [Matthew Seymore]: I mean how do we solve that problem like Maria.   [Becky Morrette]:  Although Oh, God, never see Matt and I am not going to, But I still know all the words. Yes, we are going to look at musicals and it is going to be epic. So thanks for joining us and we will see you soon.   [End 00:44:37]

Think BIGGER Real Estate Show is Facebook Live event where Justin Stoddart shares ideas and methods for real estate professionals to help them build, grow and scale their brand and business. Justin is real estate and marketing entrepreneur.  He started in real estate as a custom home builder.  Since then he realized his passion was building people rather than buildings.  Today he works with real estate agents as a representative at Old Republic Title in Lake Oswego, OR.  So many real estate professionals are caught up in the daily grind that must be performed to get the work done, that they have no time to think about, let alone execute, creating a brand and growing beyond the transaction mode.  There are multiple opportunities to spend money on different tech platforms to advertise and get leads.  But at the end of the day, is a client you work with from Zillow your client or Zillow’s client? Zillow is working to become the Amazon for residential real estate.  They draw the attention of the prospective buyers, agents pay to be seen on Zillow, and it works.  But will the client remember you, the agent when they are ready to buy again? Unless the agent has distinguished themself as something special, the customer will likely go back to Zillow, not the agent. In order for an agent to avoid being displaced by tech platforms like Zillow, they need to create value and position themselves as a brand.  If the consumer sees no value in the service provided by an agent, why would the customer look past a tech platform? Think BIGGER Real Estate Justin recognized that real estate agents need help to grow their business and their brand.  To help his clients, real estate agents, he created theThink BIGGER Real Estate Show. It is both a resource and an example for his agent clients on how they can bring value, and stay relevant in the eyes of their clients and prospects. The Future of Real Estate The future of real estate is certain to change.  Real estate investors and home owners will continue to buy properties.  Presumably, as technology advances and AI is more fully adopted, the division between Fiduciary & Functionary tasks will become more defined.  Fiduciary tasks: Decisions made by the real estate agent on behalf of the client that put the clients interest ahead of the agent.  Functionary task: The many task which are necessary to complete a real estate transaction such as filling out a form. Over time, these lower level task will be transferred to tech platforms.   Ideally, by transferring the lower level Functionary Tasks to a tech platform the real estate agent will be able to work more on the Fiduciary Tasks, to better serve their clients.   Time previously spent doing the functionary task, will give the agent time to spend educating oneself on where the market is going, engaging the client.   This higher level will not be for all of your clients, but you will be able to provide this for a small group of your clients & prospects.  When you ask better questions you get better answers. The more you listen and learn your clients wants and needs, the better you are able to serve them.  Ultimately, this better experience will provide a happier client who is likely to refer more clients to the professional agent.   BIGGEST RISK  Each week I ask my guest, “What is the Biggest Risk Real Estate Investors face?”   BIGGEST RISK: I think actually interviewed a gal yesterday and she said. I asked her the question which is kind of my signature question get on my shows which is, "what do you do to intentionally think bigger? And I 'think it's a great response actually for your question. She said I work too. I work really hard to avoid complacency. And I think the biggest risk that all of us face in a world that's rapidly innovating and rapidly moving forward is to get complacent with our own personal growth in our own personal network. And I'm going to put up a plug for you. You didn't ask for this but to have somebody who's whose business is insurance. But goes about adding value to their clients really modeling media. Modeling marketing at its highest form. I think it's it's brilliant on your part because you're becoming a much more, even if nobody listens to this. I know that's not ture, we had this conversation before. You've got a great audience. That just affect the person that you're becoming by having these conversations. Just makes you when you show up with a customer you're so much more valuable to them than had you just been going about as a typical insurance agent. And so I would encourage anybody who's listening that the biggest risk that you have is to not surround yourself with partners like Darrin and knowledge that's helping you grow and your business grow. Because we can't really complain and say, "Oh I've had such and such for so many years and you know they're you know they've done fine". Which I'm all about loyalty, don't get me wrong. Like I'm not. But what I am saying is all of us need to be aggressively seeking out how to grow ourselves and grow the value to our customers. And sometimes that entails actually taking a look at our partnerships instead of these people becoming somebody that can lead me? Are these people the growing network that can be a value to me and my customers as the competition stiffens. So not growing and being complacent I think is the biggest risk.  For more go to: www.ThinkBigger.Realestate

BIGGEST RISK: I think actually interviewed a gal yesterday and she said. I asked her the question which is kind of my signature question get on my shows which is, "what do you do to intentionally think bigger? And I 'think it's a great response actually for your question. She said I work too. I work really hard to avoid complacency. And I think the biggest risk that all of us face in a world that's rapidly innovating and rapidly moving forward is to get complacent with our own personal growth in our own personal network. And I'm going to put up a plug for you. You didn't ask for this but to have somebody who's whose business is insurance. But goes about adding value to their clients really modeling media. Modeling marketing at its highest form. I think it's it's brilliant on your part because you're becoming a much more, even if nobody listens to this. I know that's not ture, we had this conversation before. You've got a great audience. That just affect the person that you're becoming by having these conversations. Just makes you when you show up with a customer you're so much more valuable to them than had you just been going about as a typical insurance agent. And so I would encourage anybody who's listening that the biggest risk that you have is to not surround yourself with partners like Darrin and knowledge that's helping you grow and your business grow. Because we can't really complain and say, "Oh I've had such and such for so many years and you know they're you know they've done fine". Which I'm all about loyalty, don't get me wrong. Like I'm not. But what I am saying is all of us need to be aggressively seeking out how to grow ourselves and grow the value to our customers. And sometimes that entails actually taking a look at our partnerships instead of these people becoming somebody that can lead me? Are these people the growing network that can be a value to me and my customers as the competition stiffens. So not growing and being complacent I think is the biggest risk.

I'm so excited (and a bit nervous!) to share with you that I'm writing a book. UPDATE: You can buy the book here: https://lovefrommim.com/book Hey, this is Mim Jenkinson and you're listening to the Busy Mum Balance Life Podcast. I've gone back and forward on whether to share this for a good few weeks now, and I spoke to someone today who was like, "Nope, share it. It's good news, and it's something to talk about." So I thought, "I will." But, basically, I wanted to bring you in on the secret that I'm writing a book. Which I'm like so excited about. Seriously, you go on to social media and every other post is someone saying, "I'm writing a book," these days. And, I mean, personally, I love to read, so I get super excited when I see those. I know for other people it's like, "Yawn. You as well." So I guess I'll tell you more about what the book is about before you, hopefully, shut this down. As most of you will know, though, I've shared quite a lot in the past few months about my issue and addiction to alcohol. And one of the most common themes, kind of in the questions that I've had, because I've had hundreds, probably 1,000 or more now, messages and emails, particularly, asking me about my experience, about ... Mainly the common theme is that people didn't understand that I had a problem. And the question is coming out of concern for both me and for themselves a lot of the time. Like they don't understand how ... Do I have a problem? Am I sure I've got a problem? Is it not just that I need to cut back a bit? How have they missed the fact that I've had a problem, if it's been a friend or family member? And then for them if I've got this issue with alcohol, does that mean that they have, too? And I've shared quite a lot about the reasons I was drinking alcohol too much, how I was abusing it, the results of that, but I haven't gone too in depth. It's obviously highly personal, and it's really embarrassing as well. Like it's not ... Whilst I feel very proud of the fact that I've overcome this issue, I've been incredibly embarrassed about the fact I had it in the first place. However, I did find that the more I shared, the more it helped me, and I really started to feel like I was helping other people as well. And I don't mean by that helping make the world a better place by everyone quitting booze. Like I really don't think that everyone has to go out and be as drastic, if you like, because I have done. But I have had so many messages to say that me sharing has helped them. It's helped them acknowledge that maybe they've got an issue or it's made them feel better that they don't, or it's given them ideas of what they can do if they do want to cut back a little bit and kind of, I don't know, take a minute to think about their own life and recognize ... You might be one of these people, perhaps, recognize is it something that was spiraling a little bit for you, too? Anyway, back to the book. So I basically started writing. I wrote about my experience, what led up to this, some really, really personal and very embarrassing stories throughout my whole life about the kind of things that happened when I've abused alcohol, very significant things, some of them, and how it's kind of led me to where I am, or where I was a few months ago. And yet part of the reason for writing this book is because it is cathartic to share and for me to get everything down on paper. I'm a writer by trade, so it helps me to do that. It's just always been great therapy. When I was going through my experience of breast cancer, writing like an online diary, I mean, nobody may have read that, but just being able to write that down and get the thoughts out of my head and onto paper, on my blog, I just found that as such therapy. And this has been the same. But then to have so many people tell me that my words have resonated with them and it's helped them, that, to me, is something I did not expect. I didn't expect for a moment that by sharing my story I might help someone else in any way. It wasn't something that I intended to do when I started sharing. I was interested to see whether anyone else was going through the same thing, but I didn't have this purpose of, "I'm going to help someone." However, the more I write, the more that I am told that I am helping. Absolutely, It's driven me to continue to share and to continue to try and just lift the lid a little bit on the fact that this connection between motherhood and alcohol exists. And I've been doing some research. You may have already completed the survey. I'm going to keep that open just for a few more days and I'll link the survey below. If you're a mother anywhere in the world you can complete it. But, wow, that's really put into perspective for me some of the misconceptions between alcohol and motherhood and how it's portrayed on social media. And like I said earlier, I'm not ... Like I don't judge people who drink now. I'm not kind of on a soap box of telling the world and telling mothers that they shouldn't drink. That's absolutely not me whatsoever, and I'm not out to do that at all, but the more I've thought about this, the more now I want to continue to help. And I do believe that the book will help somebody else. And that's now my intention to continue to share what's happened with me, but hopefully to help others and to make other women, other mums, feel that ... You know, is this something that they might want to change when it comes to consumption of alcohol? Do they just want to have a good old read and cringe at my sad story? I don't know. That might help someone feel a lot better about themselves, perhaps. That that's helpful still, isn't it? Anyway, I was going to keep this a secret because when people say, "I'm writing a book," you kind of think, "Oh, what a nob." Not all the time, but you know, I mean, when so many people share that they're writing a book, it's like, "Got on the book of bandwagon." And so many of my peers in the blogging field have written some amazing books and I'm so inspired by them, but I don't have an inclination to write about blogging. This is something though that's really, wow, it's like pulled out a passion in me that I didn't actually realize that I had. And, yeah, this is kind of where I'm at. So I only started writing very recently, so it's kind of early on in the game, but the words are kind of flowing so far. I'm about 30,000 words in. It might be complete trash. It might never ever be released from my PC. Like it might ... Nobody might want to publish it. Nobody might want to read it. It might turn into absolutely nothing, but I feel like it won't. Like I'm feeling really positive, and it just feels like the right to do. I'm really sharing my heart now. Please don't laugh and judge me. I'm sure you won't, but I just wanted to share this because I would love you to be on this little journey with me of writing a book. I've never written a proper adult-sized book before. I've written a lot. I'm a copywriter. If you've read much of the things that I do write, the pieces I write in the articles, it's the way that I speak, like I don't try and be somebody else. This book is not for the fanciful highbrow reader. This is going to be ... It's very much an online diary. It's very much my opinion and my thoughts and my experiences, and that's about fancy as it gets. So not very fancy at all. But I would love you to encourage me and keep on checking with me to see that I'm hitting deadlines because I actually have given myself a deadline to have finished my, I think that Brene Brown calls it the "Shitty First Draft", by the end of the month, which is this week. So it doesn't give me very long. It might take a little bit longer, but that's the deadline that I set myself anyway, because I really want to get cracking with this. I don't want this to stop flowing. Like I want to keep on going with all the enthusiasm that I've currently got. Anyway, this has been going on a lot longer. I did just intend to come online and say, "Hey, I'm writing a book. That's exciting." And then put the phone down. But I've now waffles on for eight minutes and eight seconds, so I'm going to stop. Wow. If you've got this far, I love you so much, and thank you very much. And, yay! I'll let you know what happens next. Hooray!

Wanting to communicate with Spirit? (Whether that be your Spirit Guides or Past Loved Ones...) Sometimes it can feel a bit confusing, like you've got to de-code the insights! Over my time of working with Spirit, I've worked out a few of their common signs & signals! Which I'm sharing with you now for this week's Spirit Girls Episode... Listen now & Subscribe for more guidance on strengthening your intuitive abilities

The Bible tells us that the crucible is meant to refine, and God will allow us to go through things in our lives that will act as crucibles to bring us to a place where the dross of our character can come to the surface. Consider supporting this podcast by buying one of our marriage books today. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna talk about asking God to search our hearts. ♪ Whoo ♪ ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one full of life-- [Aaron] Love-- [Jennifer] And power-- [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God-- [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. ♪ Hey, hey, hey ♪ [Aaron] Welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. [Jennifer] The most amazing podcast you've ever been listening to. [Aaron] Yeah, if you're married for sure. Actually, I think we have people that are not married listening to us. [Jennifer] Hey, that's good. Yeah. It's awesome. [Aaron] Which is awesome. As usual, we wanna invite you to leave us a quick review. A star rating is the easiest way to do it. All you have to do is scroll to the bottom of the podcast app and hit the star. But if you have a little bit of extra time, you can leave us a text review also, and that helps lots of people see the episodes, see the podcast, because it comes up in the rankings the more reviews they have. So that'd be awesome if you can do that. If you've been blessed by the show, we just invite you to do that. [Jennifer] And thank you to everyone who has already left a review and star rating. We really appreciate that. [Aaron] Yeah, there's tons of 'em. We have over 600 star ratings, and like 70 or 80 text reviews, which is amazing. [Jennifer] And so encouraging to us. [Aaron] Yeah, I go through and I read 'em, and I send 'em. I'll text pictures of 'em to my wife so she could see what they say. They're really encouraging. So we wanted to also invite you to check out our online store, shop.marriageaftergod.com, where my wife and I have written a 30-day devotional bundle for husbands and wives. We've also written a prayer book bundle for husbands and wives. And it's also where we're gonna be launching our new book next year, Marriage After God, which this podcast was started because of, and that comes out next year. So if you wanna support our podcast, if you love the content, just go to shop.marriageaftergod.com. [Jennifer] For those listening who, like you said, maybe aren't married yet, we also have a book bundle for them. Oh, yeah. And it's prayers for your future husband and wife, so you can check that out as well. [Aaron] Thank you for that reminder. So that's how we get support for our podcast. If you love it, if you wanna support the podcast and the content, check out our store, and pick up one of our books. That'd be awesome. So before we get into the topic, I'd love to do an icebreaker. And this is something we're gonna try doing. It's a new part of our show. And so it actually reminds me of when we used to lead a marriage table back at our old church, babe. Do you remember how we do icebreakers in the beginning of all of the sessions? [Jennifer] Yeah, it was super fun. I think it was just a way for people to get to know each other on a real quick, kind of surface-level basis. And so I think it'll be fun. I think it'll give our listeners just a little bit more insight into us. [Aaron] Yeah, and sometimes it'll be fun. There might be like a little game or something. I don't know yet. [Aaron] So here's the icebreaker. What is your favorite candy? [Jennifer] Mm, that's a good one. I have lots of favorite candies. I tend to lean more towards the chocolate, which when I think of candy, I think of hard, sour tart things. So I don't know how other people would answer this, but I would just say like a good Snickers bar, good chocolate bar. [Aaron] Do you like the nougaty center? What's in a Snickers bar, peanuts? I don't even know. Yeah, there's like caramel, nuts, the nugget, all of it. [Aaron] Mm. [Jennifer] Or is it nigget? I don't know. Nigget? [Jennifer] I don't know what it's called. [Aaron] I think it's nougat. Noo-jit. Okay, so now you ask me an icebreaker question. [Jennifer] All right, so you're drinking a cup of coffee right now. Yes. What do you like in your coffee? How do you take it? Let everyone know. [Aaron] Black, nothing. I don't put anything in my coffee. ♪ Boring ♪ Just kidding. I like it that way. Just espresso and water. Hot water, of course. So that's... I don't know if anyone knew that about me. I just like black coffee. Yeah, it is boring. I don't put any sugar, no cream. I don't even like eggnog in my coffee even though I love eggnog. [Jennifer] I've never even heard of someone putting eggnog in coffee. Why would you even say that? [Aaron] Like an eggnog latte. [Jennifer] Oh. I'm not really a coffee drinker, so I don't know what's available. I don't know what's out there. [Aaron] Yeah. It's the season for eggnog, that's why I brought it up. I'd rather just have a cup of eggnog with a cup of coffee next to it. Okay, so icebreaker done. But another thing we're gonna add toour podcast is I'm reading a book right now, and I'm gonna read a quote from it. And so I think what we're gonna try and do is just take little quotes as we're reading through books and materials that we are checking out and going through. And the one I'm currently reading is Letters to the Church by Francis Chan. And the quote is on page 78. And it's this. Scripture is clear. There is a real connection between our unity and the believability of our message. If we are serious about winning the lost, we must be serious about pursuing unity. And I just love that, because we've been talking a lot about unity in our church lately. A theme in our life lately over the last few years has been unity, just learning to fall in love with the body of Christ and fall in love with other believers in the way the Bible has called us to. So that just really spoke to me last night when I read it. [Jennifer] So I love that quote, and I think it's pertinent to what we're gonna be talking about today, specifically just introducing what we wanna talk about today 'cause it kind of started out with a little messiness in a relationship that contributed to what we're gonna share today. Do you wanna-- Yeah. Share a little bit more about that? So in our, in our small home church, we have a handful of families. And when you walk so closely with people, there's just going to be some messiness sometimes. There's gonna be stickiness. There's gonna be hard things. It's why the Bible talks a lot about our relationships with each other. The majority of the Bible is not just our relationship with God, but how he desires us to walk with one another. [Jennifer] Right, which I really appreciate that about the Bible. I think that it gives us all the tools, and encouragement, and guidance on navigating the messy parts of relationships. [Aaron] Yeah, and-- [Jennifer] For the purpose of unity, which is what you just shared on. [Aaron] Exactly. And we're not gonna talk about the specific situation. We're not gonna talk about the specific people. [Jennifer] Well, here's the thing, is everybody listening right now can relate to this. No matter what relationship that you're a part of, there's gonna be messiness. [Aaron] So what all of our listeners can do is as they hear what we're talking about, they can superimpose their own experiences to fill in the blank, because we don't need to give those details. Because what we wanna talk about is what happened-- [Jennifer] After. [Aaron] Because-- Yeah. Of that situation. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] So maybe you can give a little bit of synopsis of what happened over the last few days, and maybe what led up to this. And we can talk about our conversation we had. [Jennifer] Okay, so there was this relational messiness that was going on. And you were sharing with me late Saturday night that on your way home God had used that situation to prompt your own heart to kinda confront some things. [Aaron] Yeah. I took what was going on, and in the midst of what was going on immediately began to internalize and look inward and say, okay, who am I in this scenario? Who am I at home? And I felt like God started just really pointing out in me things, and calling out in me things, which is I believe is what we should be doing. Whenever we confront hard things, whenever we walk in trials with our brothers and sisters, I feel like the fleshly response is to look outward and say, oh, look at this, look who's at fault. This happened, they did this. But the spiritual response should be to look internally, and say, who am I? [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] What does God wanna do in me? How does God wanna use this situation to change me, transform me, make me more like him? [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. Yeah, so we were sitting on the couch that night after the kids went to bed, and you started sharing this with me, kinda like as if this situation pulled up a mirror to your own life. And what was the specific thing that God revealed to you? [Aaron] He revealed to me a few things. He revealed to me, specifically, my harshness at times with my children. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Although I've been growing a lot, and we're trying really hard to disciple our children well, and be consistent with them, and discipline them well, and train them well, and raise them well, and love them well, I have some areas of my heart and areas of my character that need to be changed. And he used this hard situation in other relationships in our fellowship to show me this. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. So what you didn't know going into this conversation with me was that I had also been wrestling with some similar thoughts just about the way that I sometimes react or respond to the kids. And earlier that day was just a struggle for me. And I just was short with the kids, a little negative in my responses toward them, and I felt really bad about that. And we sat there for about an hour and 1/2 weeping over these types of responses, because our kids don't deserve that. Our kids don't deserve us to be short-tempered, or quick in our responses, or what are some of the other things? [Aaron] Harsh stares, the way we look at them. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The words we choose to use. The way we word our messages to them. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. And it's not that we're like this all the time, but there are specific situations or circumstances that happen that we respond to in this way. Fleshly, yeah. Fleshly. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. [Aaron] And what's funny about this in how God works is our conversation on the couch that night started out as a debrief of what we've been dealing with outside of this conversation. This wasn't even a conversation we were having. And then it just mutated very quickly into a very internally focused, intrinsically-focused conversation about our own, we should call it sin. Mm-hmm, yeah. 'Cause that's what it is. Us not walking rightly, and us walking in the flesh is sin. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] The first thing I think of is the fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience. Us not being peaceful with our children, us not being patient with our children, us not being kind or gentle, it's sin. 'Cause right before that statement about the fruits of the Spirit is the fruit of the flesh. Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And although we were going through something very hard, and what I think happened is we were already spiritually sensitive because of the things we were going through in the other relationships. [Jennifer] Well, and we were kind of talking, the conversation started out with the different perspectives of that situation and kind of going to God and saying, what's going on, what's happening, and what needs to happen for reconciliation or unity within the body, within these other relationships? And then, like you said, it kind of just internalized. And I feel like what happened sitting on the couch with you that night is it was almost like God had a bucket going down into a well and he was drawing it up. And it was like the bucket was pouring over. That's a good illustration, yeah. [Jennifer] And I felt like he was pulling it out of me, all these things that I wasn't really struggling with in that moment until all of sudden, the light shined on my heart. [Aaron] I think I said one phrase and it just triggered this whole conversation, and softening of our hearts, and a revealing of our sin, and a conversation that led us to just dive in of who we are, what we do, are these things gonna remain, or are we gonna change them and remove them? [Jennifer] Well, I remember, too, a few days before this was happening, I remember driving down the street, and I had the same conviction about my role and relationship with my kids. And I brushed it off with the justification of, well, I'm not as bad as some people, or I don't do it that often. And I had these justifications that made me just kind of push it aside. And we should never push aside convictions like that. And I was realizing that-- But it's so easy to. [Jennifer] I know. -Sometimes. I know, it really is. [Aaron] 'Cause confronting those things makes us feel ugly. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And that's not fun. [Jennifer] Yeah, so all a sudden, my flesh goes, well, you're not that terrible, you know? Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] When really, the things that I was doing, I should definitely stop and recognize. And so, man, that was a good conversation sitting with you on the couch that night. [Aaron] It was a necessary one. And so why are we bringing this up to our audience? Are we talking about parenting right now? No. [Aaron] No. [Jennifer] No, it actually has nothing to do with parenting. [Aaron] No. In our case, it had to do with parenting. It also had to do with we had some conversations about our marital relationship. [Jennifer] Yup, and how we treat each other in certain circumstances. Yeah, the words we use. Are we walking in the roles God's called us to? Or are we going outside those? Are we fighting against them? Because we've grown so much in those areas, but at the same time, we can't forget that we aren't perfect yet. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] That God's still sanctifying us, and he's changing us, and he does it in specific ways. And so I just wanted to bring up a scripture that illustrates just really well. It's Proverbs 17:3, and it says the crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the Lord tests hearts. And Proverbs uses this illustration several times. And a crucible is a big, ole hot pot that you would throw metal into, and it melts it down. And you melt it, and melt it, and melt it, especially with precious metals like silver and gold. And what happens is the more you heat it up, the more you boil it, the dross, the impurities, float to the top, and then you can scrape it off the top. And then you keep heating it, and then more impurities come up to the top, and you scrape it. That's what a crucible on a furnace is for, for gold and silver. And I believe God was using this situation in our church with some of these relationship that we were having that we were navigating issues with as a crucible for our hearts. It was a spiritually-sensitive situation. We're being required to be in the spirit, and being praying and asking for the Lord's will, and seeking after his answer for what's going on. Which then brought to the surface in our hearts some thingsthat he wanted to scrape away from us. [Jennifer] Yeah. That's definitely what it felt like sitting on the couch with you that night. I just felt like he was-- It was kinda painful. Like drawing it up, yeah. But it was good. [Aaron] Mm-hmm. [Jennifer] And I remember at the end of it, you said, "Well, we need to change." And then I cried some more, and said, "It's so hard, I don't know how to." And you're like-- Yeah, you're like, "What do I do? "I feel like I wanna change, "and what?" And you weren't saying just you. It's us. Us. Yeah. [Aaron] But you're like, "I feel like I want to, "but I don't know how to." [Jennifer] And you said, "We just do. "God's already given us the Holy Spirit that empowers us, "and we just need to." [Aaron] Yeah. And for those that are listening, I'm sure they can think, remember we talked about the filling in the blanks? They can think of a situation or something in their life where they're like, I just don't know how to change. Like what do I do? And what's amazing is, and it sounds too easy, and I'm not trying to downplay the difficulty and the struggle that our spirit and flesh have with each other at times, but we can just change because we are empowered by the Holy Spirit. Do you remember the illustration I gave Eliott this morning during Bible time? We were talking about the Holy Spirit empowering us, and I used his-- [Jennifer] Oh, yeah, Tony Stark. Yeah. [Jennifer] Our son's obsessed a little bit with Iron Man. He thinks he's the coolest guy ever. [Aaron] Yeah, so I was reading in Galatians, and it was talking about being empowered. And I told Eliott, I said, "Eliott, do you think Tony Stark "would be powerful without his suit?" And he's like, "Well, no, he's just a man." And I said, "Well, but his suit gives him power. "He can fly, and shoot blasters." And I was giving all these little illustrations. And I said, "That's what the Holy Spirit is." [Jennifer] You could see kind of a light bulb go on in his head like, oh, yeah. [Aaron] I said, "Without the Holy Spirit, "we can't do anything." Which the Bible tells us, we can do nothing to please God without the Spirit of God. We can't do anything apart from the Spirit. But with the Spirit of God, we can do everything. Everything that God wills for our lives, we could actually accomplish through the power of the Holy Spirit. And yeah, his eyes did light up, because I equated the Holy Spirit to Iron Man's suit. It's much more powerful than Iron Man's suit. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] We have the living God inside of us. We have the power that resurrected Christ from the dead in us. Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And so on the couch, I was like, "I'm not trying to be harsh, "but I think we just have to change today. "We cannot continue in what we were walking in. "We cannot continue to give ourselves excuses. "We cannot continue operating the way we've been operating." I said, "We just have to change." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. And then you also said, you said, "We need to ask God to search our hearts, "and in humility, confront the things that he brings up." [Aaron] Yeah, like the dross. Mm-hmm. And deal with it. [Aaron] Allow him to search us. And that actually came, so right at the end of the night, I made a phone call to a friend, and I told that friend. I said, "Let God search your heart." [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And I get off the phone, and immediately this conversation broke out with us. And it's like, not to be a hypocrite, I must take my own advice. Yeah, yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And I was like, well, am I allowing God to search my heart? So I just said, "We need to let God search our hearts, "search within us, "and show us the things he wants to cut out of us, "he wants to change in us." And I wanna read all of Psalm 139. It's Psalm of David, a man after God's own heart. The Bible calls him that. God calls him a man after his heart. And as I brought up on Sunday when I was talking about this topic and what God was doing in us, I asked everyone, I said, "Do you want to be, "do you wanna be people that are after God's heart?" And everyone raised their hands. Yes. And said, "Yes," yeah. [Aaron] And said, "Yes." And I was like, "Well, we have a template for that. "We know someone who when they sinned against God "and were confronted by God with it, "confessed, and repented, and turned that moment." There was still consequences in life, but he was a man that showed us like, oh, when we walk this way, we can turn and walk the other way, and we can please God with our life. And so Psalm 139 says this. Oh, Lord, you have searched me and know me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up. You discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, oh Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in behind before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high, I cannot attain it. Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to Heaven, you are there. If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, surely the darkness shall cover me and the light about me be night, even the darkness is not dark to you. The night is bright as day, for darkness is as light with you. For you formed my inward parts. You knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works, my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was being made in secret intricately woven in the debts of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed substance. In your book were written every one of them the days that were formed for me when as yet there was none of them. How precious to me are your thoughts, oh God. How vast is the sum of them. If I would count them, they are more than the sand. I awake and I am still with you. Oh, that you would slay the wicked, oh God. Oh men of blood, depart from me. They speak against you with malicious intent. Your enemies take your name in vain. Do I not hate those who hate you, oh Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you? I hate them with complete hatred. I count them my enemies. Search me, oh God, and know my heart. Try me and know my thoughts, and see if there be any grievous way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. And what's so powerful about this scripture, first of all, it's beautiful. Mm-hmm. Just David's ability to write poetry and song. He's very talented. But also his ability to show us the vastness of God's knowledge of us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] That he knows us better than we know ourselves, better than anyone knows us. He was there before we were formed, had thoughts about us before we were formed, knew the days of our lives before they existed. And yet at the very end of this, he still asks this all-knowing God that knows everything about him to search him, and to know him, and to know his thoughts, and for the purpose of finding any grievous way in him. And I just think if David did that, as people with the Holy Spirit in us who searches our hearts would sit down and say, Lord, is there anything in me you want out of me? I think it's important for us as believers to do that. [Jennifer] Yeah, I know. It's just so beautiful. And I love how you brought up that God already knows us inside and out, every which way before we were even born. He's the one that knit us together. He is the one who made us in the secret place. And I think that that helps us trust him when we cry out to him and say, search me, oh Lord. We can trust God. Right. [Jennifer] Because he's the one that created us, and he already knows us. [Aaron] Yeah, and he desires us of our own will to invite him to search us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] Because we can be oblivious. [Jennifer] Yeah, we can. [Aaron] It's not an excuse, but often we use it, the ignorance and obliviousness, as an excuse of like, well, I didn't know, or well, how am I supposed to, I'm not perfect. We use all these words, like you said, "Well, I'm not that bad." [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And I've done the same thing. When I come to these thoughts that the Holy Spirit's prompting my heart, I say, well, I've changed a lot, and I used to be much worse, and therefore, I'll get better eventually, and it's not that bad. [Jennifer] Well, we can't be blindsided if we are growing in spiritual maturity to think that we've ever reached the pivotal place at the top where we're just like perfect. Yeah, we're there. [Jennifer] We're not there yet. We'll never be there until we're in the presence of God, and we have to stand before him. [Aaron] It's a great point is we're not there yet. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And so, A, can we humble ourselves enough to recognize that we're not there yet? [Jennifer] Well, we have to. -Yeah. We need to. [Aaron] Yeah, the Bible tells us that if we don't humble ourselves, we're gonna fall. And I don't wanna fall. I don't wanna, in our scenario, lose our kids. I don't wanna just continue in these every once in a while or every so often things that we deal with, and then embitter our kids to us. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. Or set the example so that when they're parents, they respond in this way. Let's just end it. Let's stop that, and show 'em the right way. [Aaron] And ask God on our knees, change us. Make us better. Show us how you want us to be the way everlasting, right? Yeah, 'cause who benefits from when we cry out and say, search me, oh God, of course we benefit from that if we walk out and pursue what he has for us in purifying our hearts and purifying our lives, but who else benefits? [Aaron] The body, others, our children, our spouse, our neighbors. It increases unity in the body of Christ with other Christians. Other people benefit from us inviting God to search us, and change us, and draw things out of us. And what's awesome is the Holy Spirit's already doing this. His desire is to sanctify us and transform us from the inside out. But there's something powerful about acknowledging and recognizing that he wants to do that. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And then it's almost like opening the curtains or taking the glasses off, you're like, oh, like yes. I'm gonna look for the things you wanna show me, so when you show me, I'm not gonna slough 'em off. I'm not gonna justify them away. I'm gonna say, that's something you're showing me. Okay, I'm gonna change it. I'm gonna walk in your spirit you're giving me, good Lord, to help me change it. We woke up that next morning, how did you feel? [Jennifer] Lighter and braver. [Aaron] Braver? Brave's a good word. [Jennifer] Yeah, I just felt like we could do this. And the coolest part is that we're doing it together. You could've had that revelation from the Lord and just continued on and maybe ask God to search your heart without ever having that conversation with me. But because you entered into that conversation with me, we're able to not just have had an awesome conversation where intimacy took place in that moment, especially-- I was just thinking the word intimacy, yeah. Over our children. That was so beautiful to me. But that we get to keep each other accountable and walk through it together. Day-to-day, we're asking each other, "Hey, how've you been? "How've you been with your attitude? "How you've been with your responses?" That is what marriage is, that's a part of what marriage is for, why God created two becoming one. [Aaron] Yeah, to help sanctify us, to transform us. Yeah, so it's not just your journey with God, although, that's important. It's our journey together, and how God can move through our marriage. [Aaron] Yeah, and the next day, man, it did feel lighter. It did feel like we can accomplish anything with God. It also empowered us. It made us ready for what God had next for us. And I don't know, I just wanna encourage everyone listening to consider the things we're saying. I asked everyone on Sunday. I said, "Go this weekend, ask God to search you." And it is scary, and I'm pretty sure there are people that haven't done it yet, because they're like, okay, am I ready for this? Am I, you know? [Jennifer] What's God gonna show me, even though you probably already know. [Aaron] Yeah. What's funny is just me even mentioning it, I bet you anything, things just immediately came to people's hearts. Well, what did I keep saying on the couch that night when I was crying? Do you remember? [Aaron] Um, we said a lot of things. You kept saying you can't, or-- I kept saying, "Why did you even say anything?" [Aaron] Oh, yeah. [Jennifer] Like three different times, I'm like-- And oh, yeah. "Why did you even say anything, why did you bring this up?" [Aaron] Yeah, "I don't even like that you brought it up." [Jennifer]But I didn't mean it. It was just my flesh-- No, it was out of your heart, yeah. Yep. Not wanting to confront certain things, but I know it needed to happen. And I'm so thankful. And I remember telling you, "I didn't bring it up. "God brought it up." Yeah, the Lord did. Which I'm grateful for, I really am. [Aaron] Well, yeah, and-- [Jennifer] And don't you feel unified in our marriage that we know that we're trying to tackle hard things with parenting? Together, yeah. [Jennifer] Together, yeah, I just love that. [Aaron] And what's funny is the more you're with someone, the more you're one with someone, the more your issues are the same. I think when we-- [Jennifer] We start copying each other. [Aaron] When we first got married, I had my issues, you had your issues, and we've slowly worked through a lot of them. Mm-hmm. Right? And now we're on the couch crying about the same thing. The same thing. [Aaron]Like our horrible parenting, or our horrible attitude. I might be exaggerating a little bit, but I feel like I'm not. Like that God wants us better in these areas. Well, here's the thing. I don't think it matters what level. I think that if it needs to change, he's gonna prick your heart about it. Yeah. And it's our job to have the courage to face it and allow God to transform us. That's the point. It doesn't matter what the level of harshness is if there's any harshness. God wants it. You know what I mean? [Aaron] Yeah, well, level is a good word. 'Cause you actually mentioned a while, you've talked about how if something you were walking in a sin wasn't to the same level of something I was walking in-- [Jennifer] I disregarded it. [Aaron] You would be like, well, it's not that. [Jennifer] It's not as bad as that guy. Yeah, at least I'm not like my husband, and the things he's walking in. [Jennifer] Stop justifying, Jen. [Aaron] We can actually, we do that. [Jennifer] I know. [Aaron] There's things that God might wanna change in us, and what we do is we say, well, it's not one of the major sins, so it's not that big of a deal. And God's like, wait, no, I'm not okay with any of it. The Bible tells us to be holy as he is holy. What that means is that we're pursuing the holiness, which means we're practicing it. In 1 John, it tells us, it says, he who practices righteousness is righteous. [Jennifer] Mm-hmm. [Aaron] And that's what God wants. He wants us to practice it, and he teaches us these things. And so-- [Jennifer] What's the challenge for them? [Aaron] The challenge for them, the challenge for them is to sit down with their spouse, and ask God to search them. As David said, search me, oh Lord. Know my thoughts. See if there be any grievous ways in me. [Jennifer] And if there are grievous ways and he reveals them to you, which he will, he's faithful, and he wants this for us to have the courage to change. [Aaron] Yeah, and to realize that you can change, and be transformed in those areas because the same Holy Spirit that just revealed those things to you lives in you empowering you to be different, to be a new kind of human. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] As The Bible Project always says. A new kind of human that we can actually be godly people. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And it's a journey. Yeah. And so that was our encouragement for everyone today is to do what we just did. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] And then to do it often. We're gonna do it more often. We're gonna be kind of a constant prayer of like, okay, Lord, is there anything in me? Change me, make us new. [Jennifer] Yeah. Well, speaking of prayer, we ended the last episode on spiritual stamina with a time of prayer together, which I really enjoyed. That was really awesome. And we just loved that so much that we believe that there's a necessity to be praying with you guys. So at the end of every Marriage After God episode from here on out, we're gonna end with prayer. So you can look forward to ending each episode with us, and we just invite you to join us in prayer wherever you're listening. [Aaron] All right, I'm gonna pray. Dear Lord, thank you for your holy word that guides us and challenges us to be transformed. We desire to be mature. We desire to be who you create us to be. We lay our hearts down before you. Please search our hearts, Lord, and see if there be any grievous way in us. Prune our hearts. Cut out what is sinful and unfruitful. Strip away the bad and replace it with your good. Reveal to us the areas of our lives that need to be repented of, that need to be changed, that need to be transformed. If there is anything we have been hiding, anything we have been avoiding, anything we have been unaware of, please open our eyes to it all and give us the courage to confront it. Lord, help us to deny our flesh and embrace the righteousness through your Holy Spirit living in us. May we never be prideful. May we never be convinced that we don't have room to grow. Search our hearts, oh Lord. In Jesus' name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Aaron] So I hope that blessed everyone. Prayer is important. God calls us to pray without ceasing. And so have this conversation with your spouse, get in prayer, and see what the Lord reveals. So we thank you for joining us this week. And we hope it blessed you. We hope God's working in your lives. That's our constant prayer for you all. And we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

A while ago I had a chat with a Bird on a Bike, Sarah-Ann Lucas, who grilled me on some off script questions which included a game, the 7 what's and the 1 who, which threw me, sometimes the way in which someone probes someone for answers is just as fascinating as the answer itself. Which I'm actually now writing a chapter of her book because of this. We also discuss the future, the present, the past, and a whole host of interesting topics, enjoy.

Listen to Wendy talk with Joanna from USA about her successful journey on Heal Endometriosis Naturally, 12 Week Online Foundation Membership Program with Wendy K Laidlaw. Discover more about how this may help you and download your FREE Top 5 Jump Start Tips at Https://HealEndometriosisNaturally.com Get FREE Paperback book worth £14.99 (just pay shipping £7.95) at Https://HealEndometriosisNaturallyBook.com Apply to work with Wendy at Https://HealEndometriosisNaturallyCourse.com   Read the full transcript below:- "Wendy: Hi, this is Wendy Laidlaw here from Heal Endometriosis Naturally. I am joined today with Joanna, which is very exciting. Hi, Joanna. Joanna: Hi, Wendy. Wendy: How are you today? Joanna: I am doing really well. Wendy: Well, thank you so much for agreeing to be interviewed with me today. I know everyone that first comes on to be interviewed -- it's a bit nerve-wracking. It's kind of like "What questions is she going to ask me?" but I was particularly excited about interviewing you today because you're coming to the end of the foundation program. You've had stage four Endometriosis. You've had cysts. You've had adhesions. You've had everything. And I think people will really be interested in your stories so I thought maybe you could just give a little bit of background. I know you've read my book and that lead you to the foundation program, but perhaps you could tell a little bit more about where did you see information about the book, what you got from the book and then we can get more information from you then. Joanna: Okay. So I didn't know that I had Endometriosis and about last year I started getting a lot of pain. I've always had painful periods. My periods started when I was 13 and I had to leave school the day it started. I was in so much pain and it's been like that forever. It's always been taking time off work and leaving a college class in the middle of a session because your pain was so intense and crying all the way home because your legs were going numb. And I always thought that was normal. I had no reason to question that that was not normal to feel like that during a period, more so because my sister was like that, my cousins were like that. It ran in the family. I don't tend to talk about other girls about how do you feel when you have your period, so I based it on the people around me and just went on with life and it actually started getting worse as I got older but more so last year. The week before my period my insides would start to feel like they were on fire and very sore like somebody kicked me or punched me in the gut. Then I would get my period and it would last 8 days and be horrifically heavy and you'd be so sick and then the whole week after, up to two weeks after sometimes, I would be, again, with this super sore gut. And that was completely new, as a whole new phase for me and I would get maybe four good days and then the next period would start. So it became pretty cumbersome to deal with that. It started affecting work and life because I would go to work and I'd start to get this sore feeling and it would always start near my ovaries but I always thought it was my appendix. That was "Something's wrong, it's got to be my appendix," because, like I said, I never thought it would be my reproductive system acting up. Joanna: So I work in the school district. I work with kids so I'm always on my feet, very active. I'm a very energetic person so I like to participate with the kids and last year, May, I started with this extra pain and I couldn't function with the kids. I would miss about three days a week from work. That would be going in and begging the principal, "Can I please go home? I can't even carry my own weight right now. I'm in pain." So eventually I had to make the call and put my notice in because I wasn't reliable anymore in my job and started doing test after test, seeing doctor after doctor, and every test was coming back "There's absolutely nothing wrong with you. Your imaging looks perfect. The ultrasound, the CRT scans, X-rays, everything is great." And I was doing two CT scans a month. You'd do it, you'd go home, the pain would intensify, you end up back at the urgent care and another CT scan. Eventually they started calling me an enigma saying, "There's nothing wrong, it's all in your head. Yeah, you're saying there's this pain but we're not seeing what you're saying." So that went up from early June last year until September I had the gynaecologist finally say, "Well, I don't even think it's gynaecological. I'm gonna send you to a GI. I think it's in your gut." And the reason was I was experiencing a ton of gut pain every time I had my period. That bruising was all in my gut. Joanna: So of course I went and the GI wants to do a colonoscopy. So, okay. I prepped for that, which is, by the way, horrible. I mean, you're already not feeling well and then they put you through this 10 day prep regiment and you go through the procedure. And that came back nothing's wrong, because internally they couldn't see anything wrong. I ended up having a very close friend of mine through church that had just gone through a hysterectomy. When she was able to come back to church everyone was kind of hearing that something's wrong with Joanna. "She's not well," "We're praying for her," but she didn't quite know what was going on, so she sat down with me and she said, "Do you mind telling me what are your symptoms? What are you really feeling?" So I started telling her about the pain, that my legs would go numb, my back would hurt, my intestines were always sore, and the ovaries and the period were horrible, and her first reaction was, "Have you ever asked about Endometriosis?" Because that's what she had. She had stage four and unfortunately did not know about things like this. She's one of the ones that ended up getting a hysterectomy from it all. But I had never thought about it. Joanna: I grew up in Canada and would go to the doctor and tell them about the period and Endometriosis never came up. It was never a word we would hear about, so I never had reason to think about it. So I said I would go to the gynaecologist again and asked to see if you could check for Endometriosis. And apparently there's no test. You have to get a surgery. Well, I had to go to three different doctors to convince them to do a surgery. It's not like everybody goes in asking, "Can you cut me open? I want you to see what's going on." And finally I kind of have to lie. It wasn't a full lie but I had to then think back about my family history and say "I don't know if it's Endometriosis but my grandmother had severe pain and my mom had this and my sister had this. And fibroids run in the family." And as soon as that came up, then he goes, "Okay, I don't think it's what you have but I'm willing to go in." So I had a [?] [00:07:46] booked a month after the colonoscopy for endometriosis diagnostic. And that was in November of 2016. And when he went in I remember coming out of the anaesthesia. You know they say you're not going to remember what we tell you. I remember everything he told me. He came and he sat down and he goes, "Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is you were right, we found Endometriosis. The bad news is by the time we've done the surgery it's so far gone that there is nothing we can do about it." He said, "I was able to burn off a bit on your ovaries but it's all over your intestines and we can't burn your intestines." Which I'm glad they didn't try to cut my intestines. Wendy: I'm glad, too. Yes. Joanna: I just remember crying. It was so overwhelming to hear that you have this. Sorry, I'm going to cry now. It's really overwhelming to hear that you have a disease that they could have done something about but they refuse to help you. That's kind of what the medical system is. But yeah, so I had these pictures and I just remember going home and staring at these pictures of my gut, black, covered with these black blood things. I can't even describe it. It looks like you're invaded with something. It wasn't just a little bit, so of course it's overwhelming. And to know coming out of it that you have to live with this pain now. That's their theory. So I didn't take very well to the surgery and I don't do well on the drugs so I was very sick from that and two weeks later he had me come back in to go over things in more detail. The first thing he wanted to push was Lupron. I have a friend who has breast cancer and she was on Lupron. I told them, "This is what you give cancer patients." He says, "Yes, it's a very strong drug, but in your case this is what you need to go on." And he started describing the side effects, and it was like if I take this you're telling me the pain might get better but I'm going to have all these other symptoms that sound terrible. I mean, it was you're going through menopause, you might throw up, you weight gain weight or lose. Just all these things, and I got scared, and I think it was really good that I got scared or else I would have taken it. I've always just done what the doctors tell me because they're doctors and they're supposed to know better and they're supposed to be there to help us. So I had told him, and kind of just based back on my friend, she was taking a very natural route so I told him that day that I wanted to hold off on the Lupron if I could and seek alternative medicine. And the moment I said that he wrote me off. He literally said if that's what you’re going to do I can't work with you anymore. That those are not doctors. They have no medical educations like we do. We do not consider them to be actual doctors. So I said okay. There was nothing I could do. I was actually shocked that that was his response. So basically, "If you don't want my drugs that's it." So I went home very upset and my husband sat down with me and said, "You know well. You want to do the alternative medicine." We hadn't found a natural path yet but I started doing research online and I just typed in "healing Endometriosis naturally" and lo and behold one of the first things that popped up was your book. And at the time I was too cheap to buy it. At the time we didn't have Kindle, so I said, "Ooh, if I get Kindle I can get a free 30 day trial and download the book." Joanna: And I, despite having been a teacher and now being a substitute teacher, I really have to be interested in a book to sit there and read a whole book." And I started reading your book and I couldn't put it down. I literally read it in like a day. It was like I was reading my own story. Everything I had found online -- there was all this do this, do this, do this, but there was nobody that really made me feel like "This is what I went through, this is what I'm feeling, and this is what worked for me." And I was skeptical because I'd never believed in taking a natural route. I've really always been a Western medicine type of person, but the book really spoke to me and just opened my eyes to the possibility that, wow, if this is true I can fix things without having to go the medical route. So we started going through and I saw you had the cookbook, so I also downloaded that. I ended up buying both. I actually read your book three or four times because I'd always go back through and highlighting things and making note of what I could do. So I decided to try to follow the book to see if I could fix myself that way. I actually had not seen that you had the foundation program yet, so it was very hard. It was not easy to follow in the beginning because you're so used to eating what you want, eating how much you want to eat. I loved bread, I loved fast food. We went out and ate all the time. So for me to see no dairy, no soy, no sugar, it was like "WHAT?" Joanna: Luckily I have a very loving husband who said, "Okay, if we're going to do it, I'll do it with you." So we started slow and the first thing we took out was the gluten, and it took about a month to finally get past that you're always feeling hungry and you're always wanting something fatty and sugary. But by the end of the month we were actually able to take away all four of those things, and within 8 weeks of starting, on my own, following what I was trying my best to on your book, I started getting a lot of relief. And the biggest thing that excited me was the [?] [00:15:03]. That was the first thing that kind of popped out to me. I did my own research on it and I said it seems like it's okay to take. So I started with 40,00 for like a week. And I believe I had emailed you. I did not expect you to email me back. You emailed back and you had told me you started with 40 and went up to 80, so I did that. I was reading in the book about how it can break the adhesions down. One of the things that had come out of the surgery in November was that we were infertile because Endometriosis had completely sealed my tubes shut and the surgeon had come in and said that if you ever want a chance at having kids, you would have to try IBF and even that would probably not be successful. Like, that's how bad your tubes are. That was really hard because what I failed to mention was that what initially put me into the doctor was we were starting to consider having children and I had this pain and they said before we look at fertility, we ought to check this pain out. And that's how it progressed towards what it is now. Joanna: So it was very emotionally really hard. We're in our 30's now, and to hear that there's maybe no chance. Part of looking up the Serrapeptase, I came upon a lot of women saying that they had taken it and they had done a test. It's called an HSG test where they put a dye in and they check your tubes with this dye. It's like an ultrasound. Most of them, I was reading, they were saying, "My tubes are open." I was super skeptical and I said I'm going to try -- Wendy's book says 12 weeks on Serrapeptase and good things can happen. So twelve weeks later. I started January, the Serrapeptase, and then late February, early March -- I want to say it was the first week of March -- I made an appointment to do an HSG test. And here you have to go to reproductive clinic. It's a whole little process, but knowing my history the doctors there were pretty skeptical that what they're gonna see is maybe it's a little better but it's probably the same situation. So I was going with the same idea, and I remember doing the test which was, for me, actually pretty painful. I don't know why it hurt. Some women say it doesn't hurt, but other women it does. It feels like you have this burning liquid going up, because they take a balloon and expand your uterus. It's not a comfortable test to put yourself through, but it was worth it if it came back positive. The doctor was in there and I'm like clenching trying to get through it, and she stopped and she goes, "It looks perfectly fine. Your flow is so good." So the dye flows through the tube and she goes, "Everything is passing through. So your tubes are good." She goes, "There's a little bit of residue from scar damage, but it's not blocking anything.” I just remember being so happy. That was one of the best news we'd received since all of this had happened. It was just really good to know that, wow, now we have a chance to have kids. This Endometriosis can be stopped and things can get better. So after that was when I had, somehow, online, I had just happened to be going through stuff online. Your book popped up again and below it said Foundation Program. And I don't know how I didn't notice it before and I clicked on it and realised I could work one on one with you. And at that point your book had helped me so much, I was really excited to be able to have the opportunity to work with you because I knew I could get more than from just the book. And so yeah, I started working with you -- I don't even remember if it was May or June. Wendy: Beginning of June, I think it was. Joanna: Okay. And I probably wouldn't have done it if things had continued to go well, but after the HSG, about a month after or so, at the end of April, I remember emailing you saying something's wrong. My pain is coming back and I'm not quite sure I'm following everything that I'm on, but it's like everything's reversing. I'm going backwards rather than forwards and I was seeing a natural path at the same time because I figured I've gone away from believing in doctors but now I'm listening to everything the natural path is telling me because how can natural stuff hurt? Unfortunately, the natural path -- So I had done a blood test that tested everything, all my vitamins, all my hormones, and it came back that my DHEA levels, which is a hormone that you produce naturally in your body, were low. So she decided to prescribe me DHEA, which I actually in the office asked her, "Does this have any side effects?" And her response was, "No. If you take too much your liver's just going to detox it and out it goes," and whatever. Actually, I was on DHEA way before that, in January. It was about four months I was taking it for, but the effects did not hit me until April. And it was you that mentioned after starting the program, when you looked at what the natural path had me on, you said, "Oh my goodness! You're on DHEA what?" and I had never -- even though I questioned what the medical doctors were trying to put me on, I never questioned the supplement. Joanna: And in the beginning of June when we started you told me, "You need to stop right away." And I did not. So you said you need to look it up and when I looked it up I was shocked to find out that DHEA increases your estrogen levels immensely. It is considered a steroid so for men it basically takes estrogen and it converts to testosterone and they use it as a replacement for steroids. But for women it basically doubles up your estrogen level. And when you have Endometriosis you don't want to be doing that. And I had come across that article I shared with Wendy that there was experiments done on mice and it showed that they were on DHEA for 16 days. They were put on 16 milligrams, which is a lot for a mouse -- for 15 days I was on 10 to 20 milligrams a day for four months -- and they all had massive cysts in their ovaries. And that just hit me, and the reason I'm saying that is about mid june the pain got so bad that I ended up having to go to the ER and they found cysts on my ovaries. Again, I thought it was my appendix going, but no. I had a cyst on my right side. One had ruptured and one had not and it was causing immense pain. I couldn't walk. I couldn't do anything. Function. And I remember you telling me, "Even though you stopped the DHEA it's still gonna be in your system. Joanna: So the fact of me seeing this research article and now here I am. I've been on this stuff. It's only been four months and I have cysts. I believe that it is what helped to cause that. The gynaecologist disagrees, of course. So that happened and then it went from "you have a cyst" to "you have a twisted ovary." And then it went from "you have a twisted ovary" to "it could be something else." "It could be your [Indiscernible] [00:24:09] Endometriosis. So we were back on the Endometriosis bandwagon again and again the emotions hit because I was doing so good. I was back to work, back to normal life. I would do my photography. Everything was good and then I got hit and life just went down. It was really hard. I don't think I've ever cried so much as I've cried in the last two months. Joanna: So I ended up -- because the theory was the ovary was twisting, it was laparoscopic was the answer I guess, to untwist it in case the ovary was dying. So I did not want to do laparoscopic. I started doing the [Indiscernible] [00:25:00] massage for a bit ,and it would help but it wouldn't take all the pain away, and so I finally agreed to do the laparoscopic. Of course they go in -- and this was just recently, two and a half, three weeks ago on the 20th of July -- I went in for laparoscopic and I came out and the doctor said, "So there's no Endometriosis that we can see." She said there was one thing on your uterus and one thing on your bladder, and their tiny. They're like peas, tiny little things. And she goes, "There's nothing on your intestines at all." And it was mind blowing to hear that. What do you mean there's nothing? They said there's nothing that can be done. I've been doing this thing with Wendy but there's got to be something! She said, "No, there wasn't," and I think that was one of the best news that we had gotten. Joanna: It’s still shocking to know that here you were told only a few months back in November that once it hit your guts like that, that's it, you've got to be on these heavy drugs and there's nothing we can do. The likelihood it can spread, get into your lungs -- they really scare you. And now to hear it's basically in remission state, it's going away, was just amazing to hear. So it really just proved -- and in a short while, January to July, everything cleared up. But I'll show you the pictures. I don't know if you'll be able to see them well. That was my ovary in November. Completely white, marbleized, and the black dots on it, the stuff he burnt off. I mean, even to see your ovaries scalded like that is not [Indiscernible] [00:27:13] to look at. And then it's really hard to tell, but that's part of my gut and it's really black. It looks like it's black and blue. And I have a couple of other pictures I couldn't find, but basically a lot of my gut looked like that, just purpley black growth. Joanna: So when I went in and I got my new pictures -- so let me find it. This is in the exact same area. That's my ovary now. It's got a little bit of white, but it is not a marble. It's pink and fleshy and squishy like it should be. And my gut, the same area of my gut, is up here and it's completely normal. It was really amazing to see. I can't put it into words. It's just really exciting. i can't even find the one now. Oh, here we go. So this is not bad. It might look bad, but that was black before it looked white and the reason it's white is the Endometriosis left and it kind of left a little shadow of itself. So that is scarring but I know if we continue with the program that can all go away because obviously it's gone away on the other parts. So yeah, it's just been really good. I still battle with the end result of adhesions. It's left behind a lot of adhesions but with the myio-fascial massage and all that, I know it can be fixed. And I'm still taking my serapeptase. So I'm on this road now to being so close to back to where it was, which is super exciting. Wendy: Well, it's fantastic to hear your story and I'm so pleased that you're sharing this story because I know it's been an emotional rollercoaster for you, where you've been where doctors tell you there's only one route and it just feels quite hard to follow with the surgery and drugs and there's no way out. And then you take a way out and you speak to a natural path and you think you're doing the right thing and they don't understand them to be choices[?] [00:29:53] so they're giving you something that's feeding Endometriosis. Because not a lot -- natural paths promote, it's fantastic, but unless they understand Endometriosis and how expensive it is to [Indiscernible] [00:30:05] estrogens or any other traditional estrogens that you can blame it so quickly, and of course that's what happened with your insides, is they [Indiscernible] [00:30:13] but equally as well, I do remember you telling me when you went in that your cysts had gone as well. Joanna: Yeah, they were. So basically my reproductive area looked really good. No cysts, my appendix looked great. My appendix in November was marbleized. It had been attacked at one point and he didn't remove it because he said he didn't see any growths, but it was all white as well. But she said my appendix looked, great, my ovaries looked good except for the two little things they found. They did burn them off or whatever they do. And the gut looked great, so yeah, it was good. She mentioned the adhesion. That she could see, which I kind of expected that that would be there, but that's a small part of everything else. Wendy: Absolutely. And I know that you were reticent about going for the surgery, but you were in so much pain because the DHEA had inflamed your insides [Indiscernible] [00:31:18], which as we've found out is now partial bowel obstruction as part of the adhesions. You were always frightened and scared into having the surgery, weren't you, which you were reticent. You didn't really want to do. But we've joked about it afterward saying I'm so glad you did because I have had women say, "Have you got surgical proof that your program works?" and I'm going, "Well, normally the proof is the reduction and elimination of pain and symptoms." That's proof enough, women coming out of bed, having normal periods. And it's being normal, like a day and a half period or very light. No clots, not bloating no period pain. That whole shebang. And then as I say you've gone in and -- so how does that feel to kind of see those photographs? Joanna: Yeah it's good. It's weird to be looking at a photograph like that, but  it was actually one of the prettiest pictures I've seen in awhile. It was really good, and I've actually even never seen my husband that excited since we got married. Because really the doctor didn't even talk to me first. She went to them because I was still coming out of anaesthesia and when he came to see me, my husband, he just had this big smile. I was crying partially because of that but also because we did find there was a little bit of a bowel obstruction because the adhesions had twisted my bowels a bit. But we are working on that. But he goes, "I know you're overwhelmed that there's still this pain in your side a little bit from the bowels, but this is so exciting." He was so happy to see that. And I think that's a big part of what this program has really helped, too, is it's really hard to deal with Endometriosis. It's not a disease that people consider a disease unless they have it. It's something that I have even battled to talk to women about because I've had a lot of women come to me and say, "I have Endometriosis and it's not that big of a deal. Why are you making it such a big deal? It does not hurt the way that you're saying." Joanna:So I think even as women, the education is not there, to know that there are different stages and it really can debilitate a person. Because it completely knocked me -- I was bedridden for weeks. It really does affect you. So that was hard. You feel very alone, which what I really loved about the program is not only having you, but you do these conferences and we get to see these other women we're talking to face to face and it's just so nice. It's really refreshing to have that, but it's also given me the confidence to build a better relationship with my husband because now we understand what are we really dealing with. It's not just, "Oh, she's whining again. Her period. Okay, whatever." And for him to even notice things like, "Hey, you remember last year you were having eight day long periods and it's like three days now and you're fine?" After surgery I was scared because two weeks after I was getting my next period. I hadn't had one in between and I actually called the doctor and said, "I don't want to do this. I'm on this natural path, but I think I need you to give me some painkillers because when my period comes it's going to be bad." Because I had to stop all my supplements I was on because they had me on a lot of things. And my period came and it was fine. I mean, it hurt a little because I had surgery pain and stuff, but the cramping was an hour, maybe two hours -- gone. And the period was generally really good. It lasted three or four days and that was it. And I was expecting to be in excruciating pain, so it just goes to show it just changes you so much overall. So it's been so amazing. It's been a really amazing journey. Wendy: Well now remember when you said that you were expecting your periods and the cause of all the drugs morphine and anaesthetics and stuff you really thought like, "Brace myself. I'm going to be in a big thunderbolt of pain." And that in itself is very interesting isn't it, because how does that differ from the periods you used to have before? Joanna: Oh, they were excruciating. Like I said before, I remember even in high school having to call my dad to leave work and come and pick me up and you are using every ounce of your strength to walk out the door because you cannot feel your legs. And you're getting this wave of pain and it was intense. And it was always like that. And to go from -- Wendy: I remember your shock when you're like, "And my periods came and no pain and I think that's really wonderful. Full credit to you for following the program, following the suggestions and being consistent and persistent with it because even in spite of the surgeon frightening you into having this surgery, which I knew you didn't want to have, so much good has come from it, really, in your case because you've seen your insides. You have physical proof of your insides healing. Isn't it interesting even with everything that's going on, your periods have improved because you've got such great healing in there and you've been removing systematically the inflammatory factors and swapping them out with things that re soothing and healing so the body's healing naturally. How does it feel? Do you think that that doctor six months ago, who pretty much wrote you off -- if you could speak to him now -- Joanna: Well, I don't know. If he sees this. [laughter] No, but you almost want to go and wave the pictures in their face and say look, I did this all naturally. But you know what, I still feel like with how stubborn some of the medical system can be that they could still say, "That doesn't prove anything. It wasn't as bad as you think it was anyway." Wendy: You're right, they would dismiss it, because I did the same when I got better. I went back to my doctor and back to my surgeon and said, "You need to share this with other women." And they dismissed me with the back of their hands. I think you'd got referred to as an enigma, and what I got referred to too. But I think when  you understand the body's always wanting to heal itself and if it's not healing there's something stopping it. And then you're looking for what's stopping my body from healing. And that, to me, was my first -- when I was lying in my bedroom for three years in a gross, dreadful state with all but giving up home of carrying on and I got a cut on my finger and I noticed it was healing. And then I started to think, if that's healing, why are my insides not better[?] [00:38:46]? And then understand, as you said earlier, it's an estrogen-dominant condition. It's a hormone imbalance, there's lots of inflammation, so if you systematically -- and of course, as you say, people do normally need support because you're in pain, you're struggling just to get through the day, and that's where the foundation program came about because people were emailing me saying, "I read your book. It's great. It's starting to help but I've hit a wall," or, "I need more help," or whatever. So what particular aspects do you like? Is there a lot of emotional support, would you say, in the foundation program that you felt had been beneficial? Joanna: I think it's everything. I feel like you're a combination of a nutritionist, health coach, life coach. Yeah, it's really helped with my emotions to -- I mean, you pushed me to start meditation, which I hated doing and now I really appreciated it. The journaling was horrific, but now it really helped me to get my brain wrapped around things. It helps me to have a method of venting, because as a woman fighting a disease like this it can be overwhelming on those around you and you can get whiney and you can get complaining and sometimes you can need a break. And I saw that, that it was getting a lot for my husband and my family to handle, and having the journal kind of gives you that break too where you're not complaining out loud. It gave me an outlet to put my thoughts down and I was starting to even figure more stuff out about how I was feeling and my symptoms and connections between, "Hey," I wrote, "I had a really stressful day and my pain level was like a 9." And it kind of helps you become that investigator that you spoke about. Joanna: And then on the other hand, just the nutrition side, I know that I can come to you and say, "This got recommended to me. What do you think about it?" and just having tht person to go back and forth with really makes a difference. You can do research online, but it does make a difference to have a person to speak to. So yeah, I loved it for all aspects of what it's done. The friendships it's created -- I feel like Susan, who's in the program right now, even though I've never met her, it's really enjoyable to be able to sit and talk with her every two weeks with her. So you kind of create a community. Wendy: Yes. And as you said that's so important. You've said it a couple of times and I know I felt that you feel so alone in this disease. I think someone has cancer, everybody seems to understand what cancer is and there's a degree of sympathy that people get with that condition, whereas Endometriosis, I know you had people saying it's an enigma, you've got such a small cyst, why is it causing you so much pain -- you're always being pulled into questioning. You have ot fight to be believed. For people to come together who are going through that -- that's why I start these programs every couple of months with people coming together, starting at the same point and going through it together so you don't feel alone, you feel that you're all in this together and it makes you feel like you can do this. Especially on the bad days, especially on the weeks you're just like "I can't be bothered" and "I really want to give up," because it is a twelve week program and you need to keep going through the program to get through. Joanna: And it's not easy. There's a lot in the book about you. Like, Wendy's telling me to keep doing this and I just want to stop. Wendy: Of course. But that's where I come in. I see myself as your coach, your champion, running along beside you saying, "Come on, you can do this," because I know how hard it was because I've been there and that's why I've created the program with the different levels of support, to say you can do this. And I never said it was going to be easy but it's absolutely worth it to get the results. Joanna: It is. As soon as you get that -- it could take four or five weeks, but it just takes a little change in your pain to realize something's changing, or to be able to come off painkillers. That's a huge thing, because they really don't make you feel great, and you don't realize that until you stop taking them. But yeah, I mean, I'd encourage any woman who, if you just even have periods that just don't feel right, to question it and get it looked at and question everything now. I learned after the natural path thing to even question the supplements and I even find every time I google a recipe or supplement or something, I always put Endometriosis at the end of my search to see does it clear up estrogen. What does it do? Is it a phyto-estrogen? Is it a xeno-estrogen? Wendy: And do you find now because you've got the education, education webinars through the program on the membership site, do you find that you feel more confident now with what's going in your body and you understand it's effect? Joanna: I definitely do. I actually feel like I go in with more knowledge when I go in to see -- so I'm seeing a new natural path now and everything she suggests I say we need to look up how that affects estrogen. She says, "Why?" Because I have an estrogen-dominant illness and I know there are a lot of things that we might not think -- for example, turmeric. They say take turmeric and turmeric is a phyto-oestrogen. So just little things that we eat or put in our bodies. So it's actually been kind of fun to go in and say, "Hey, I actually know this about my disease. This is the type of blood work I need you to test." I didn't mention that the reason she did the DHEA is my bloodwork did not come out that I had extremely high estrogen. She did not look at all of the different parts, I guess, which is what we get from your program and there's no actual estrogen. There's three actual components that make it up and if we had done that then we would have seen. So later down the road, the next blood work, yes, it showed it, but initially it didn't which was why the DHEA was prescribed because "you don't have an estrogen problem." Wendy: Well, that said I think, again, medical profession are trained in a certain way. They're not trained in nutrition. Natural paths don't understand, again, the hormonal perimetar of women with Endometriosis and don't tend to -- what the program does is look at the whole of you, not a one result or a one symptom. It looks at all of the different aspects together and then forms a picture, and that's where, when you and I are working together, we're working together as detectives, Sherlock Holmes going, "Right, let's look at this a bit closer," because there's always a reason why you're getting a symptom or something while you're going through the program. And I think what I've really noticed with you since the beginning of the program is your confidence. Perhaps you could share with people how you felt about coming on just 10 weeks ago? Joanna: I mean, I did not want to show my face. I think we were doing a conference call or something. Yes, I work with children. I can be super outgoing with kids, but when it comes to something like this -- I mean, I'm still nervous right now. Don't get me wrong. You're exposing yourself. You are. And I know this is going to be public, so you're vulnerable, but I feel more happy to share it because you do get that confidence and the excitement gives you that confidence and the knowledge gives it to you. So I want to help other women because, like, I said, I thought I was doing great and it literally hit me. I went one day fine and the next day suddenly -- Wendy: But you were really unlucky because you were doing great and it was just an unfortunate thing that your natural path didn't understand Endometriosis. Joanna: Yeah, but this is even before your book. So last year, it went from super active to Endometriosis hit me hard. That can happen to anybody and you don't realize it. I think it's important as soon as you start feeling symptoms you really start to look into it and what is causing it, what's going on. It's worth the effort on your part as a person to look out for yourself. Wendy: And what would you say to women who are considering the foundation program now? Joanna: I would definitely recommend it. It is worth it. It's worth, if anything, having that support network. I mean, I know you have the advanced program, so I know there's a possibility you're not going to be 100% fixed at the end of the 12 weeks, but what it did for me -- I think we're on week 11 now. We're almost done -- what it did for me, it gave me the tools that I didn't now to have. I wouldn't have even thought to take -- I had never heard of Serapeptase. I had never heard of the protein powders and never considered them. Wendy: I think that's it I think that's what my aim was with the programs, everything in the book. But the program was to give you a toolbag. A toolbag can be the support network, give you multi-learning at different levels. You have the webinars, audios, handouts, downloads, Facebook group, group Q&A calls every fortnight, the one on ones with me. So there was that level of support, because normally people stop off really well with great enthusiasm and they hit a wall or life gets in the way and that's where they need that additional support. Joanna: Yeah, and I think that's kind of hitting the nail on the head. If I have to encourage anyone with the program, it would be you will have moments where you hit a wall and you will feel like it's not working or you're going backwards. It's almost that saying of it's going to get worse before it gets better, and you do go through that within the first couple weeks. Wendy: I'd like to call that being tested. You're being tested as if to say "do you really want to get well?" because this program works if you work it. Joanna: Yeah, and you have to push through. Wendy: But sometimes that's where the support comes in and it's normally six to eight weeks before people start to see the benefits, but it's that combination of factors with one had coming down through the layers of the onion and looking for the core of the information, and on the other hand putting great seeds in to get great roots of nutrition and amino acids and vitamins and minerals. So you're feeding your body with everything it needs to heal itself whilst removing and swapping out what's causing the symptoms. Joanna: And you feel better. Like, food wise, I told you I love food. I love fast food. I love everything, but now we eat so much better and we call it fancy food because you're having really good quality things that you would go to a restaurant and pay $50 or whatever a plate for and it's by no means that much when you make it at home. But you do start eating really well and it can be really fun. It is a really fun journey once you can get past -- stop focusing on your pain and your Endometriosis and start focusing on you getting better. Wendy: Absolutely. I think you told me a funny story about your husband as well. It was a bit funny about the food to start with and then he went out and had some horrible food and then came back and -- Joanna: Yeah. We had been going gluten free and dairy free. I'd cook him his huge meal and 20 minutes later he'd be starving. That's something we learned. Our body is just taking in everything, so for the first little while like 20 minutes in you're like, "Man, I just had dinner and I'm hungry again." But he hated that feeling and he goes, "I need my sugar. I need my gluten. That's what made me feel good!" I said "Okay, there's nothing physically wrong with you. You can go back on sugar and gluten. I don't care. Thank you for being there for me, but I'm good now. You can go back." He went out for a burger or something and he goes, "Ugh, I feel terrible. I'm never eating gluten again!" So he's actually away on a work trip and he's eating all gluten free, dairy free, soy free, because he says he feels so much better. And he's not the one that has an illness. So I think it's good for everybody. Wendy: Well that's it. I think the program does have rippling effects. I know families and partners get involved as well to help support the necessary lifestyle change that needs to be made. It has rippling effects out to everybody, which is fantastic. Joanna: Yeah, and I think when it comes to doctors, the hard thing is you have the foundation but you still have the doctor on the side. And I wouldn't say get rid of your doctor, but I think it's important -- like, what I had to do is I had to really search out a doctor that would listen, and I am blessed now that I am working with the surgeon that did this recent surgery. She's so supportive of me taking the natural route and she knows that my goal is to be as natural as possible. So yes, she would love me to take the medical medications if I agreed to, but she's okay. She goes, "I want you to try everything for you that you feel will work for you and I'll be here if -- " let's say, Wendy's program never worked, then they're there but it works. I can't say it doesn't work. So you need to seek out people that will hear you. Wendy: And I think that's what the aim of the program is, too, to widen your community of support on the other side as well and make sure that you have your voice, know that it's okay to say know, know that it's okay to ask questions because, again, our culture encourages people to be a good girl and a yes girl and kind of "Yes, Doctor. Whatever, Doctor." Too frightened to question and ask. And obviously when you're making that transition away from the conventional medical field and looking at natural routes, it can be a bit daunting, be a bit scary. Kind of take that responsibility. But that's where, again, I encourage women and if they are having to interact with their doctors in any capacity, even if it's just from a reassurance perspective to go "You're still there in the sidelines, aren’t you? Right. I'm going to teach you what is working for my body." And it's wonderful when you get doctors and surgeons -- I had a doctor who started using the same protocols and principals with people in his surgery, in his clinic, and he was emailing me going, "Wendy, this works!" and I'm going, "I know. I've been telling you this for months." It's wonderful when they start to listen, and if they're a good doctor or surgeon they'll be excited for you because the whole ethos of a doctor is to do no harm. That's their motto. Clearly their aim is to heal you, to help you to get better, not to make you worse, so if you are getting better I would hope a good surgeon or doctor who's supportive of your choice to take this route is happy that you're getting better, because surely that's the aim, not to keep you pumped full of drugs and painkillers. Joanna: Yeah, and you will find the ones that are like that, but there are good ones out there and you just have to be willing to let go of the one you have and search out. And you can. I'm sure everywhere there is someone that you can find. Wendy: But ultimately it's all about not having that requirement with a surgeon or doctor. Joanna: Yeah, exactly. Wendy: It's all about you knowing your body better than anybody. I don't care what they're trained in or how many years they've been in the field. It does not interest me one jot because the women I work with, they know their bodies better than anybody else. They have lost that relationship with their body. Joanna: Well, prior to my downturn in June, I didn't go to the doctor for the four months, and I was going a lot before that. So, yeah. And I think one of the biggest things that you've really helped me with is learning to say no to people. Not just doctors. To just people and things in my life, because I think I shared in the beginning of the program -- I love to help. No matter how I'm feeling, I'll say yes. We had a friend move and I was feeling terrible and I went and I helped them move and I remember you saying, "What's wrong with you? Why did you do that?" I couldn't say no. And it's taken me awhile to get there, but it's really important to listen to your body and know when to rest and to know when to tell people, "Hey, I'd love to be there but I just can't right now. I need to look after myself. I'm not doing well. When I'm better, yes, I'll be there." So that's been a really big help, because for women, if you have kids -- I don't have children, but for those who have children, you feel like there's a lot of demand on you. Wendy: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think you've had an amazing journey so far. I've admired your commitment to yourself even from the beginning to implement the book, and again, just keeping moving forward, keeping being consistent and persistent, listening to your body -- you’ve had life throw obstacles in your path, but you've bounced back and you're living to tell the tale, which is fantastic. Joanna: I feel thankful to you. Wendy: Aw, well it's great working with people like yourself. You're really committed. Because the program doesn't work -- people poke it with a little stick and think it's a fad because it is a lifestyle thing. I refer to it as a new path. It is a pathway that once you're on you can't revert back to eating rubbish, you can't revert back to all the various stuff because then your symptoms will return, but you can see from the photographic evidence, which is so exciting, that if you do make the changes your body responds accordingly, and that's really exciting. Joanna: Yeah, but even without photographic evidence, you were saying like with eating, I have cheated. I've had a bite of something that's got gluten and you feel it right away. Your body starts to talk to you and that's actually pretty neat in itself. Wendy: Exactly. It's having that confidence of knowing what it's saying and what is happening, making those connections. Thank you so much for coming to chat with us today. I know that lots of women will take great hope and comfort from this and this is why I was so pleased that you were prepared to come and chat with me because I think people think, oh, well it worked for Wendy but it's not going to work for me, or it might have worked for the women on her testimonial page -- probably paid them to say that, which I didn't. Previous students as well. Just the very fact that you've had the HSG test, your cysts disappeared, your ovaries are better, your uterus is better, your intestines are better, and even your period. I mean, wow. In amongst all of that your period improved. I felt that was something people would want to hear because it's a lot of people, if they're maybe listening to this in their bed or bath going, "Oh, there's no hope," with all these drugs with terrible side effects I want to see that their is hope and here Joanna is living testament, as I am and other women, and I just want to thank you so much for taking the time out. It was a wonderful chat. Joanna: You're welcome. Thank you for having me. Wendy: No problem at all. Yeah, so thanks very much".   Want to get more support and guidance as you start on your healing journey?   Order your FREE paperback book ‘Heal Endometriosis Naturally Without Painkillers, Drugs or Surgery’ worth £14.99 at https://HealEndometriosisNaturallyBook.com (just pay shipping £7.95).   Or apply to work with Wendy on the 12 Week Online ‘Foundation Program’ at https://HealEndometriosisNaturallyCourse.com 

Another Fine Podcast on the Giant Size Team Up Network Hosts: McFall * Klotz Support the show by joining our Patreon and leave us a 5-star review on iTunes! This week, Kurtstable (the Stable-est of them all) fly's solo.  One on none.  All by his lonesome.  A lone gunman. The Tom Hanks in that Castaway movie or The Mark Watney or The Robinson Crusoe of Podcasts. This week there is 100% fewer McFall and Klotz. He's alone, I tell you! Well, I guess you could count the chatroom over at Twitch.  But we don't hear them!  We have no concrete PROOF that they exist.  We have to assume that Kurtstable hasn't just made them up in his solitude-induced delirium. Kurtstable plays the game and covers a bit of breaking news while discussing a few team configs and also answering questions from the Twitch Chat. (Which I'm still not 100% convinced is real) Watch FTH Beyond: Marvel Strike Force from FTHBeyond on www.twitch.tv _________________________________________________________________________________________________ Are you joining the show LIVE in Twitch? Typing "!s 'space'" in Chat lets you suggest show titles and ask questions (and get answers) DURING the show. We love this game and community so we promise to always be honest about what we think and to be reasonable in our analysis. Catch us every week on Thursday for the recording of the podcast. You can Watch the recording of FTH Beyond live every week on Thursday at Twitch   (Watch Charles play the game live each Sunday eve and Kurtstable plays live on Monday nights) See Us At Dragon-Con! (The BEST Con!) Get in Touch! Send us your thoughts    (by Email! or Facebook! or Twitch! not in that weird telepathic way) End Credits * Hosts: Charles McFall, Kurtstable, Klotz * Publisher/Post Producer/Editor at Large: Mike Woodard * Publisher In Absentia:  Chris Wisdom FTH: Beyond is brought to you by the Giant-Size Team-Up Network --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/fthbeyond/message

Episode 40 features Alana Louise, an independent designer living in Austin, TX. She’s worked with incredible companies like Yeti, United by Blue, Austin Beerworks, and others. When Alana Louise is not designing, she’s on the river fly fishing. In this episode, she tells us how sharing her passion for fishing on Instagram helped her land her dream clients. Dan and Alana Louise also cover design systems and how they’re applied to packaging and what it’s like to be part of the local design scene in Austin. She also shares her thoughts on seeking citizenship in the US. "Because on my Instagram, I post pictures of whatever hike I did or whatever fish I caught, that attracts a certain group of followers. Then when they discover that I'm a designer, I think that's when that type of work comes in. Right now I'm working on a project with two outdoor companies that are collaborating on public land use. Which I'm a complete supporter for because the water I fish in is public and I would love it to stay that way." Alana Louise on Dribbble Alana Louise on Twitter Alana Louise on Instagram Drew Lakin Austin Beerworks Bethany Heck Alana Louise's Fishing Instagram Pedernales Falls State Park Shea McClanahan Wicked Tuna Fort Lonesome Yeti Presents: My Mom Vala Helms Workshop Bionic Brew Bridgeport Brewing Austin Beerworks La Verdad False Cast Shop Retro Supply Creative Works Conference Transcript for this episode and more at https://dribbble.com/overtime.

[Silence for 25 seconds.] Hi. Hello. Welcome to the Katrina Ruth Show. Where anything could happen and probably will [inaudible 00:00:34]. You're gonna like it. It's gonna be fun for everybody. Or maybe I'll just be super sweet and nice. I'm pretty sweet. I mean I feel like life is sweet, like sweet. But I feel like I'm pretty sweet. I feel like this morning ... I hate ... Oh my golly gosh. Oh, no it's okay. I thought I left my Nike hoodie at the gym, but I found it. Brandon Marshall? Brandon Marshall,I fucking knew it. From that first live stream. I fucking knew it. Probably everyone else did as well. I definitely did. I was like, I see exactly what's happening here. Kelly and I took a photo of ourselves this morning. And we just decided that we looked so beautiful. We were like, look at us we're so pretty. And then we were like, will you listen to the sounds of us. One of us said, I won't tell you who said what. Damn intuition. I know all the things. One of us said, "We look so pretty." And the other one said, "We should be super models." I'm not gonna tell you who said what. Why don't you just guess? But we just looked really pretty, I think. 'Cause of the pinkness and the sweetness. And because we just, we were just like two sweet pretty little girls. Like just little girls. Little girls talking about naked sensual dancing. Actually, may have been video shown of one person doing a naked dance in front of a mirror. Maybe, maybe not, maybe I'm just making shit up. Guess who that was as well if you like. So anyway, I don't think that's got anything to do with what we're here to talk about. What are we here to talk about? Oh, you just put one foot in front of the other. It's a whole story, right? I'm sort of quoting Elizabeth Taylor. She says, "I just put one foot in front of the other. I just got up everyday and put one foot in front of the other." Something like that. That's what I did. That's the only way you could ever do it. That's just how it's done. Something like that. And I really love that quote. A lot of the time I feel like it's just total flow and ease. And I'm dancing, I'm playing with life, and astro travelling, and sitting in a beautiful surrounds at the outdoor section of the shopping mall here, for example. And having the best flow day ever just live streaming into one of my client groups just now. And then there's, you know, and everything just like comes through, and you just know what to do, and where to go, and how to move. It's like being in a dance, on a dance floor, and just knowing how to move your body, right? Or maybe sex. You know in sex where you just, like it's just like super flow. And you know, you just know, like from working. And then there's other times where you're like, should I move my leg like this more, or like that more. And you're like this is stupid. Why am I even thinking about it? And then you're thinking about why you're thinking about it. And then you're like, I think I'm not good at sex. I'm probably thinking that I'm not good at sex. And then it's just like a mind fuck. And it's definitely not flow. So it's kind of like that. Life is like that. Life is like sex. Or sensual dancing, same thing. Or just normal dancing, or writing. It's all the same. Sometimes it just kind of comes out. And it's like, oh this is fucking magic, and it feels so good. And clearly everybody's having the best time ever because this is amazing. And then other times you're like, do it do it this way, or that way? Do I dot the I like this, or cross the T like that? Maybe I shouldn't do it. Maybe I shouldn't do it at all. Maybe I'm stupid at this. Maybe I'm not good enough for this. Mind fuck. So just now. I was kind of like, I'm a little bit cold actually. Been sitting here for a while and I'm a little bit cold. And then I was like, maybe I'm a bit hungry. Maybe I should go and get a quick 30 minute massage before I have to go to the dentist in 43 minutes. Which I'm so excited about. I've decided that I'm gonna have the best experience ever at the dentist. Calling it in. Why would I not? And I didn't really necessarily feel like going live. But then I was like, well really am I going to fuck around here. I'm like, but what am I gonna do? Am I gonna walk in to Sephora and buy a freaking eye liner? Or am I gonna do a livestream. Am I gonna bullshit myself that I don't have time to doing a livestream? To do a livestream before I go to the dentist. Am I gonna like tell myself the story that it's too cold to sit here? Am I gonna say, "But I don't really have a topic title anyway that's coming to me right now." I've been like, going at it hard all morning. By going at it hard I mean I spent three hours sitting having coffee with my best friend Kelly, and talking about sex, and life, and business, and money, and sensual dancing, and all the things. But I did write a blog. And I did three or four pages of journaling. And I did go to the gym. And then I did a livestream for my members. And I've answered a bunch of comments and questions. So I've done many things, about many things. And so I have been going at it hard. And so then I was like, well maybe my brain is a little bit fried, right? Maybe I should go up to grilled burger place and get a burger. Maybe I should go in to Sephora. Maybe I should go over there to jbsports.com that's over there behind me. Where I do wanna go? Maybe I should go and buy a new, you know like a hoodie to fit my big breasts that I now have. 'Cause none of my clothes now really fit me. I'm wearing the same exact Nike hoodie all the time. But it's just 'cause I love that hoodie. And I wear it obsessively everyday anyway. I have like a wardrobe that's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, but I just get around town like a semi homeless person. With a Nike backpack and the same Nike hoodie on every single fucking day. Like I don't have any clothes. So then I was like, maybe I should do that in my spare time before I go to the dentist. I don't really need to go live, you know? I'm sure I can do it later. I'm sure I'll be more inspired later. I'm sure my brain won't be fried, besides which maybe I'll have a little cool new top that I get to wear. And then I was like, you shut the fuck up Kat. You kick your own ass right now. Who cares if there's 25 people walking past you on the other side of the camera looking at you like a crazy person. You waving your hands around in the air and getting a preacher mode on for the last hour and a half, talking to your members. Man the fuck up and do what you're supposed to do. And here we are. That's roughly how it happened. It's roughly the entire story. It's roughly the entire story of how I created my whole business and life. What do you think? What say you [inaudible 00:06:29]. Or any of the, get a float. I so have to get a float. I could float anywhere with these new breasts. I would just bobble around. I could to the ocean and just bobble around. And just float everywhere. [inaudible 00:06:43] Sephora is always a great idea. Well it is right there. I get lost in there. I get into a little bit of a mild panic when I'm in there. It's very overwhelming. I already have way too much makeup that I don't wear or use anyhow. So I definitely don't need to go and buy more. But I don't need to go to a flotation tank to float. I've got these babies now. I'm just gonna float. I'm sitting in a pod. 'Cause I'm a space person. Have you seen my top? It says, "Follow your soul." It's backwards writing, but it says, "Follow your soul it knows the way." I'm reclining in a pod like an alien. I'm at the shopping mall. I'm a mall rat. At least one day a week I come and I be a mall rat. A pretty wealthy one, but still a mall rat. There's a gym right up there. I have a membership at every good gym on the gold coast. So that I never have to worry about driving to the gym and just go wherever I wanna go. So go to the gym. And then I come and sit down in my little pod. Then I was doing a livestream for my Break The Internet members. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. Where am I from? Well it's a very deep question. I'm from the place where our souls meet and collide and come together as one. I'm from the same place as the soul of my soulmate clients. Our souls were formed in the same soul bucket. Mim put the comment in. Put the comment in. I'm gonna talk about the comment. I'm from places from far and near. I'm from the places that are inside all of us. I'm from the places where we travel to in our dreams and in our prayers. I'm from your wildest fantasies but potentially your deepest nightmares. It really depends on the day of the week. Who can say? Anyway, did you see that I launched the Millionaire Mastermind? Did you see? Did you see? I believe that you have two days, minus 22 minutes left to join it. Can we all just take a moment of silence for the fact that it's 12:22 pm. If we cut off the 1, then it's 222. 1 2222, sounds pretty good. Brandon just 'cause I'm in a relationship doesn't mean I can't mingle. We're gonna need to have clarification around that I'm afraid. Gonna need to understand and clarify the terms of this agreement please. Please outline your policies below. So, did you see that in two days, minus 22 minutes, the Millionaire Mastermind closes again? Again? It only just fucking opened for the first time ever. So it will close for the first time. It's never closed before. Because it never opened before. It only opened a few days ago. Screwed the whole thing up, I forgot to launch. Then the sales page went down for most of Sunday, and nobody knew 'cause it was Sunday. And we were all off to the races, as you do on a Sunday in Australia. Having a great Sunday session. And then on Monday. What did we do on Monday? Oh, Monday we realised we didn't even write the freaking outline of the offer properly. We put it like a little after thought somewhere. And we didn't clearly explain what it even was. And it was very confusing to [inaudible 00:09:35]. So then we're like, fuck this shit. Countdown timer goes till midday on Thursday. Which is two days minus 23 minutes from now, 23. How may hours in a two day period? 43? 48. So, 47 hours and 37 minutes are left. You better get your ass over there. You could wait. You could wait to join my high vibe as fuck Millionaire Mastermind. The mindset and the strategy of how to crush it online. For driven entrepreneurs and crazy creators. I don't know many of them myself, but I feel like it's a thing. Crazy creators who just want more. More what? Stupid question. If you have to ask, well more what? You don't join the programme. If you go to the Katrina Ruth Show.com forward slash Millionaire Mastermind. Let me make sure that's correctly ... I was giving out the wrong link for a while. If you go to The Katrina Ruth Show.com forward slash Millionaire Mastermind, and then you read the tag line. And that is the right link. One hour, 23 hours, 35 minutes, and 38 seconds. That just blew my mind, 'cause I was like, no it's 47 hours. And then I'm like, 30's the same as one day 23 hours. So when you read the tag line and it says, "The mindset and strategy of crushing it online for driven entrepreneur and crazy creators who just want more." If your mind sense it, but more what? Then you leave, you leave straightaway. You take your questioning friends with you. And you do not return, alright? Just telling you. 'Cause I can't even with people that ask silly questions. And I only want the right people in there. And there's not gonna be any need for any explanations about anything. 'Cause I'm just gonna impart knowledge to your soul. That's how the whole programme works. Well not really. My team are also gonna teach you everything that we do behind and in front of the scenes at the Katrina Ruth Show. All of the marketing, all of the funnels, all of the strategy, all of the selling. Monthly fucking report on exactly what we're doing and how it's worked. You're a founding, founding, founding member. Triple founding. Triple X. A EMC squared member, why not? I think we should have black diamond members. Do you reckon? [Brandon's 00:11:43] a black diamond member [inaudible 00:11:44] as well. Not sure who else. Lisa [Mitchell 00:11:48] [Mackell 00:11:47], no I don't know how to say your name Lisa. I just feel like I've never said your surname out loud. Okay, so you can go there, you can check it out. You could wait. Like I said, you could wait. Because maybe you're one of those people who's like, yeah I know exactly what I want out of life, and I fully know what's aligned for my soul. And when I get to heaven I believe that I can have it all. But I'm just like, I'm just gonna think about it. I'm just like, I'm gonna wait. I'm gonna think about it. [Helen 00:12:12] I'm so glad you're in. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm gonna think about it. 'Cause you know, I don't do fast action taking. I don't do fast action taking. I like to think about things. I like to, you know, sit on it. And it sounds uncomfortable. And talk it over with my partner. And the dog. Then I like to look for signs. Like I like for a vestal virgin to come down from the mountain above, and to deliver me with a scroll that says, "It's time." I gotta make sure it's the right phase of the moon. So I gotta wait. I can't take fast action. I don't do fast action taking. If you're that person, you should leave. But first you should tell me all your excuses and reasons, 'cause then I can turn them into sales copy and sell more places. Please comment below with any thoughts that you have along those lines. And otherwise, just join the fucking programme. Go read the page. And it's either going to speak to your soul. Or it's not gonna speak to your soul. But if it speaks to your soul please don't be the person who's like my soul speaks to me, and then I don't take action. 'Cause that's definitely embarrassing for you. Why would you listen to your soul, and then not act on it? It's actually like really stupid when you say it out loud and think about it. Black diamond membership. We're gonna have to think about what black diamonds membership involves and includes. I feel like it should be a mix of slightly terrifying and slightly amazing. I can definitely handle that. What else? This is a membership programme. We do like a huge crazy ass discount to be a founding member. Which means you're going to pay only 16.666 devil numbers. I don't know why, that happened by accident. 16.666%, or something like that to join up for the first month, like a trial. Fish slapping. Yeah, that expression came from my dad. My dad says, "Would you like a slap in the face with a cod fish?" And I'm like, "Well who wouldn't, really?" I don't know. He never said it as a mean thing. It was just funny. But it made its way into the blog this morning. So you should get a slap in the face with a cod fish if you thought you needed to think about it. That'll wake you up for sure. Anyway Peter [Gregory 00:14:09] [inaudible 00:14:11]. Shout out to my dad the pilot. He's just flowing around the earth, slapping people in the face with a cod fish if they're not paying proper attention. Wouldn't you just hate to be his copilot? What if you weren't paying proper attention, you'd get a fish in your face. You should deserve it too. Alright, I'm trying to get to the point, I'm not sure what the point was though. Oh that's right. I am the fucking point. We all are. I'm trying to tell you about the programme, but I'm just like a little, I'm in my crazy mode obviously. It's off the hook, I can see that it's off the hook. 'Cause it says it right here in the pinned comment. But I can't read the rest of it. Definitely off the hook. It's definitely fucking amazing. It's definitely like, the most bad ass deal to be a founding member. 'Cause I wanna get you in, and then I wanna reach into your soul, and I'm gonna grab your soul. Your soul and mine are gonna become one, in a really non-creepy way. And then you'll be thrown out. I won't throw anyone out. But you'll throw yourself out. Maybe I will throw someone out, I shouldn't say that. I will if necessary. You'll either leave, because I don't know why. But you're probably not gonna leave, because your soul will know whether or not you're meant to be there. And then obviously you stay on. And it's a monthly membership programme. Where you learn all the things, all the time, from all the ninjas. Specifically my cat ninjas, who do all the things in my business. And then I, I, will just come in like a rockstar. When I feel like it. Straight up, I'm just gonna tell you. I'm gonna come when I want, how I want, and with who I want. I'm gonna do what I fucking want, in my own programme. So if you wanna know what I'm gonna bring, you're gonna, I don't know. I have no fucking idea. But it will be fucking amazing, and I will dazzle your [vagazle 00:16:25]. I hope we do get that one person here. Well that was fun. We had that moment in the [inaudible 00:15:48]. It was quite hilarious and shocking. So I will just come in, when the mood strikes me. I'll come in with some bad [inaudible 00:15:56]. I'll bring my energy. I'll bring my presence. You'll be like, wow I can't even look at it, it's too blinding. Get me away from it. But it's fascinating, what is that? And I'll be like, it's me, Katrina Ruth, hi. So you know, I'll probably be in there a lot. Just dancing and prancing. And doing whatever I wanna do. I promise nothing, at all. There's nothing I'm promising at all, nothing. But I'll deliver everything. I think I said dazzle your [vagazle 00:16:23]. You know [vagazles 00:16:25], like when you get little diamond on your vagina. It just came out. It just popped out. I don't really have an explanation. I can't excuse myself, there's nothing I can say further. Maybe that's what you get as a black diamond member. You get some [vagazle 00:16:45]. You get a little sequin that you can put on your ... Well I'm sorry [Brandon 00:16:48] you're gonna have to give it to [Rebecca 00:16:51]. Or we'll find a manly version. I'm sorry. I'm not really sorry at all. I'm having too much fun. So isn't it just the best creation ever? Aren't I a genius? Don't you just think I'm a genius? I'm selling a programme where I'm promising nothing. I'll do whatever I want. I'll turn up like a rockstar when I feel like it. It's fine, because anyone who knows me knows I over fucking deliver all the time. And really it's the energy. It is the energy. I will allow you into my soul. I don't allow everybody into my soul. I wrote about that in my blog this morning. I said, "It's a hell no with every cell in my body." I'm gonna give a shout out to [inaudible 00:17:32] because that was her line. And she let me use her line for my blog title a few weeks ago. In an audio she was telling me about it, something a story in her life. And she said, "It's just a hell no from me. With every cell in my body." And I was like, goddamn it that's the best blog title I ever heard. And I said to her, "You should use that in a blog title." She goes, "I'm not going to. You can use it if you want." I was like done and done. And I wrote it down, and I saved it on my desktop, and then I forgot. And then this morning it came back to me. It was like smack. It was like not a smack in the face with a cod fish. Okay just slapped myself with two hands whilst at the shopping mall. And I'm in the kind of designer area, like where, like [Harolds 00:18:08] is right there. Coach, don't care for Coach. Don't bring a Coach purse if you come to see me. It's not my favourite. [Ermez 00:18:16] is just around there. I'm in the designer area slapping myself. [inaudible 00:18:21] It's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be beyond next, next, next, next level. You get all my ninjas. We're actually including like tech support for you, and Facebook advertising support, and all the market, like all the things. I'm super fucking excited about it. Had some control issues. I had some control issues. It required some prayer. It required some wine. And as I put on the sales page. Oh Channel is just up there [inaudible 00:18:51]. Hang on, is it up there? Yeah. And it required a little bit of sexual healing. Before I was able to release the control issues that I had around, me not being the only rockstar of the show. Because I'm letting my team all be rockstars as well. So you know, I had to like, this is embarrassing. 'Cause I just gave a whole lot of shit to people who sit on things and don't take rapid action. Like I don't do fast action taking. Mirror, hello. Yeah, I didn't take very fast action on this. I sat on it for ages. What a flake. But now here we are. And it's fabulous. What else should we talk about? Is there anything else to even say? Don't you think it's just divinely delightful, that you can launch and amazing bad ass membership programme. Where you can bring your whole team in. And allow them to share their gifts with the world, and support your amazing bad ass clients. That's a big deal to me. It feels very special. It feels like I'm letting my little birds, they probably don't really prefer to be referred to as little birds I imagine. But it feels like I'm letting my big eagles free from the nest. Well I suppose if you had a nest full of eagles they'd probably be doing whatever the fuck they wanted anyway. And not flying free from the nest. The truth is, my team do do whatever the fuck they want a lot. But I just trust and know that they're gonna do what is aligned and profit-full. I really don't wanna know what they're doing. Like I don't want a fucking report. As if I care. I just want the outcome, right? So it is a special thing to be able to give you my team. But isn't it just divinely delightful, that I get to just give me. And I don't even have to say in advance what little piece of me you're gonna get. Like what am I gonna do? You know on the first Monday of every month you get a piece of my elbow. On the second Monday of every month, you get like a little demonstration of my soul. On the third Monday of every month, you get access to a makeup tutorial from Channel. What am I gonna do? Am I gonna pre-package all the little parts of my life and who I am? Or am I just gonna show up like a star, on the stage. And whatever needs to come out for my members will be the full power and the glory, and the exact soul flow message that was meant to be delivered that day. That feels a little more fun and interesting. My goodness. Six years ago, ten years ago, even two years ago. I would have thought, you can't sell that, you can't sell nothing. Well I guess I'm not selling nothing, there's a whole lot of fucking promises on that sales page. And we haven't even told you the half of all the plans as well. That's just a percentage of it. But, we're kind of selling nothing as far as my role. I'm selling that I'll do whatever I want. I'm pretty happy about it. And I think that I'm pretty happy, or grateful I should say, to my community to you. To have that level of trust. Even for people who've only just met me and come across me. My soul spoke, and your soul said yes, and now here we are. Or maybe you just created me. Maybe your soul created me. In which case, I gotta give you props for being such a bad ass creator of such a bad ass character in your story. I think you were very creative with this one. So maybe you just created me, and maybe right now this is you talking. Like this is you talking. I am talking to you. And it's actually you. Well done, get out of my soul. Without prior access or permission. Go read my blog from this morning. 'Cause I talk about who gets to be my soul, and who not. So you know who you are anyway. You already know. I think that's really all that I have to say. I think maybe I will go to freaking Sephora. I think I'll go to Adidas, or Adidas, or whatever it's called. I can see it over there. I think I'm gonna go up there. I'm gonna buy something that fits my large bosoms. And then I'm gonna go to the dentist. And I'm gonna have the best time ever. Because I decided to. And I'm probably gonna meet an amazing person at the dentist who's gonna change my life. And I'm gonna change their life. And then we're gonna have an argument over who created who. And then that person's gonna join the Millionaire Mastermind. And then I'm gonna be like, I told you about that already in advance on the livestream. And then after that I'm gonna talk to some of my clients. And then I'm gonna do another Muay Thai session. 'Cause who doesn't like to back up a Muay Thai session in the ring every two days, less than a week after having breast surgery? Me, that's who. Then I'm gonna have my hair done, and it's gonna look amazing. So I'll probably need to livestream again. It already looks quite amazing, just a bit sweaty. That's the whole story. If you didn't read my blog from today, I'm gonna give you that link now. 'Cause that was a must read. Here's this, everyone needs to do this now, no wining excises. You should listen to your soul, and you should do what your soul says. You should go read my blog from this morning it's called, "It's a hell no with every cell in my body." I feel quite happy with the ass [kickery 00:23:22] tone of it. My battery of my laptop is down to only 6% though. Which feels problematic and troublesome to use a word that's recently been reminded back to me. I'm going to try and share that blog for you before I go. But It doesn't wanna share. So maybe it's not divine to be. So go to my personal Katrina Ruth page and read the blog from this morning. It is gonna kick your ass. It will metaphorically and energetically fish slap the fuck out of you. Okay I just found it, don't worry I'll bring it over for you. Hello, hello hello. I will not try closing and reopening my browser window. You try closing and reopening your browser window you stupid thing. Do you think it's normal to talk to your laptop? Well we should give my dad a shout out for providing some good coffee. Alright, and then the other thing is, read the comment. Go to the comment. It's not really another thing we already talked about it. The Katrina Ruth Show.com forward slash Millionaire Mastermind. Maybe you're wondering. Maybe you're new and you're like, where is the show then I wanna watch the show. Well this is the show. It's happening right here. It will be happening at the dentist in not too long. In 22 minutes in fact. So I probably should get up and go. Alright, in one minute when this thing fucking loads for me. I'm gonna give you the link so you can go read my blog. 'Cause I like to make your life easy and fabulous. When you really could just go there and read it anyway. So I'll pop that link in for you. Have an amazing epic rest of the day. Wherever you are in the world. Thank you for playing. Thank you for allowing my silliness to come out. I wasn't expecting it. I actually said at the start of the livestream that I was gonna be giving you an ass kicking today. Actually I did give you an ass kicking. You're welcome. You're welcome. It was with pleasure. I'm just here to serve. I'm just here to serve. But I didn't think I was going down the stupid silly route. That just happened. I'm happy about it 'cause it makes me feel hyper. And now one of my favourite songs is on. Havana, I left my heart back in Havana. They play the best music here. Why would you not want to be a mall rat and work here all day. Okay this link is coming. It's coming for you right now. Don't go anywhere. Read this mornings blog. Read the pinned comment. It is going to expand your beautiful mind. Your soul will know exactly what to do. Do it. And don't forget Life is Now. Press Play.

What material do I use? Many PCB designers ask this question. This is an episode about RF and Microwave PCB Design as well as Design for Manufacturing or DFM and it will help you to understand material choices and where to get answers about high speed laminates. Join John Bushie, Director of Technology at American Standard Circuits and Altium's Judy Warner in a discussion about High Speed laminates and the exciting world of RF/Microwave PCBs.   Show Highlights: John and Anaya's new book on iConnect007 about RF/Microwave PCBs You can design something that meets IPC standards and still have problems. What kind of material do you need? That depends. There's what you simulate, and then there's physics. Physics trumps theory. PCB101, a manufacturing educational experience pioneered at ASC   Links and Resources: American Standard Circuits website The Printed Circuit Designer's Guide to Fundamentals of RF/Microwave PCBs The Printed Circuit Designer's Guide to Flex and Rigid-Flex Fundamentals John Bushie on Linkedin Hi everyone, this is Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast, welcome back. Today we have a really great guest for you. I'm really looking forward to sharing my guests with you and please, if you would follow me on LinkedIn or on my Twitter which is @AltiumJudy and if you would like to follow Altium you can go to our Facebook, Twitter or LinkedIn profiles. So let's get started. Today I have the great pleasure of being with John Bushie who is the Director of Technology for American Standard Circuits which is outside of Chicago area and ASE specializes in both RF microwave circuits and also flexible circus but today I want to talk to John about a new micro Ebook that they have published through iConnect007 and this book is near and dear to me. Some years ago I wrote a guest blog on a microwave journal because so many RF and microwave engineers and just engineers in general are being tasked with designing their own boards. And particularly in the RF and microwave space a lot of these designers, these guys are designing boards and haven't had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in a fab shop. Yeah, and they really just don't get a chance to be exposed to as much as we do being a fabricator. Since a lot of the people at our organization tend to be a little bit grayer in appearance we all have a lot of experience and the reality is is we can share this with them. One of our most important jobs is being able to educate them, and that's really how I think of myself, educating other people sharing the knowledge that I've gained over the years and just trying to help them out with their designs because ultimately we just both want to be successful. Yeah absolutely and as you know, I spent 25 years or so in the fabrication industry and when I had a stint in the RF and microwave industry and it was like culture shock, John, like it just felt like a whole different animal, it was like drinking from the fire, Were you working with the designers at that time? Yeah so it was like... and I felt completely inept at first when I started there to talk about laminates but all of a sudden we're talking about performance instead of just mechanical dimensioning and making… - sure we're just used to meeting specifications right? Right! - And those have a physical dimension to them and the route is you start getting into this realm of higher frequencies and you start to find out what's really important to these designers. Yeah, and I started to feel it, the more and more I learned the more kind of stupid I felt and the more I realized; holy cow there are so many ways that a board shop could screw up and there's literally… There’s literally thousands of different ways we could manufacture the same board and the reality is is we always have to try to manage any of the risks that the design presents and certain aspects of certain designs actually will will present problems, or they'll complicate other features that are important to the RF designer’s ultimate performance goals, and so working around those issues is what is so exciting about it. It is exciting. It's really challenging and fun and what was really stunning to me is to really get to the point where I realized; oh my gosh we could be 100% compliant to IPC standards... -and still have something that doesn't work... … and make a trash board - that's exactly correct. Because you know we’re within tolerances so we did a little of that, but you know what, if we over etched and you know that circuit had a little too much under or over etch or whatever that the performance went to heck and and they're like, no this is not what we simulated in and we're like, too bad so sad it's the IPC standards so it's a lot more complicated. So why don't you go ahead and talk about, sort of this is now? This is a book I wish I had enough brains to write so I'm glad you did. Don't give me too much credit. So why don't you tell us a little bit about it? Well first why this book? I just wanted to share the knowledge that I've gained and I've had the opportunity and the great fortune to be able to work at several world-class fabricators. Poly Circuits in my early days helped get Mega Circuits into PTFE materials and now with American Standard circuits. But in the middle there - I was also able to work for an RF circuit board laminate company at Taconic. Well I got to work very intimately with the designers in North America as well as Asia and Europe so it's the ability to be able to interface with what are some of the most brilliant people I've ever met just taught me so much and when you talk about coming into something feeling completely ignorant… well that was me a long time ago and the reality is now I I hope that I can share some of the knowledge that I've gained through all this experience. So since I know you've been it Taconic you probably told me that before, and just wasn't remembering it. But let's just pause there for a second and just talk about composition of high speed materials. Sure. Because that was kind of the first place I started and the realization of you know with Upper 4 you've got some fiberglass resin… - resin, glass, maybe fillers and there you go and you're off to the races. Now talk about high speed materials, the different compositions what, they are? What they are and… traditionally high-frequency materials were generally all PTFE based and what that meant in the early days is that there was very few flavors I think everybody knows the term Duroid. great materials fantastic from an electrical performance standpoint. But some of the mechanical properties were perhaps a little lacking and that's really the largest improvement we've seen in materials throughout the years. It’s the increase in strength and dimensional stability of these materials which makes it easier for us to fabricate because honestly if a material moves around a lot during the physical stresses that we put it through then we have tendencies to have registration issues, or it causes other issues within our manufacturing. The biggest change in the materials nowadays is the change to higher thermal conductivity materials. That's where we see the market going and respect to those types of products as the power levels go up and designs get small. Everybody's got to deal with these heat issues that they've got. And I'm sure automotive is driving a lot of that. Well automotive does too... that's an interesting… another realm that we're talking about, is these very high temperature materials and a lot of the underhood automotive application. It's something we just get a little bit of exposure to but it's also a very interesting field. Yeah just one of the things you mentioned too are... I neglected to mention to our listeners that we are here at Design Con in Santa Clara, so if you hear some voices in the background it's because we're here at a trade show and so just wanted to mention that so ASC is here with a booth and also rolling out hard copies of their book so. So the going back to the laminate side. So, I know from the RF experience I've had that each of these compositions of materials behave differently right? Mm-hmm. Like when I think of PTFE distinctly and there's a completely different system, you know? Distinctly, and when you go from the the thermoplastics to the thermoset materials both have their advantages you know. PTFE is a fantastic material in that it's largely inert. It's inert to the effects of high frequency radiation and it doesn't change and that's what yields the fairly consistent results that you get with PTFE materials. Now there's the introduction of the lower-cost thermosetting materials that also have pretty good electrical properties and that that can be a huge benefit just in the rigidity. Overall dimensional stability and the fairly low CTE values you know. At the same time, they've been filling PTFE materials for years in order to alter their properties and they've actually done a phenomenal job and bringing the CTE values very close to those of copper, which is the ideal since every board, every layer is clad with some level of coppers. Right. Yeah I mean we could devote… You know I this is an interesting subject and there's a new material that comes out virtually every couple months all right and there's just a lot of good materials out there there it really is which is really what the whole key to this. Yeah which is really actually good for industry great for designers right? Which is why when we get asked the first question that everybody asks is what's the right material for my design. That's an impossible question to answer on the face of it but the reality is, as we dig deeper and deeper into these designs, we can kind of get a sense of where their price sensitivity lies, what level of performance they need, and just just seeking to go through the process and understand what their requirements are. Before we got down that road... if I read - I had the pleasure of reviewing your book before it got published - and don't if I remember correctly. Don't you have a chart there or is it on your website that shows, like side by side, all the differences? We do, it compares all of the various laminates that we use and actually, I had had a ex-colleague from that company that I used to work for mention that.. hey I left out a few of the most recent materials particularly in Europe. I apologize Manfred, I did not know that there were materials released, but thank you for catching that and I appreciate your insights. Because you know again going back to that subject. I've been phenomenally lucky to have worked with some fantastic minds as well as fantastic people in this. Which I'm sure is an awesome asset for you at ASC. So okay so give us a quick rundown again. This is a micro book this is not a textbook? Yeah and it was never intended to be a treatise on the subject it's really to touch on some of the major - I'm gonna call them issues for lack of a better word - because if we don't deal with them at the beginning of the design they can end up taking what is otherwise a fantastic board and make it virtually non manufacturable and this is really about DFM. It really is. You know we go into all the subjects - obviously not every subject as it relates to circuit boards - but from material selection, to copper roughness, to choosing the right stack ups and balancing your constructions whenever possible. How does copper thickness play a role in the ability to be able to manufacture? To find fine lines and spaces, edge plating, cavity constructions, thermal management. It touches on that wide variety of subjects and it just kind of gives you an overview of what we deal with. What to be thinking about when you're going through this process and hopefully it'll be an aid. Yeah well,  I can imagine that this will be a great sort of starting place because I'm sure you get asked these same questions over and over again? Yes and the reality is, is we want it to start the dialogue right you know - and we want to be able to put something in your hands that can aid you right now. But also help you think about certain aspects so that we can work together right. We've dealt with some designs that deal with basically a composition of every circuit technology known to man in one board but since we've worked so in-depth with this customer for a very long period of time we've ended up balancing out the performance requirements that they need with our ability to be able to manufacture right. Because it doesn't matter whether it's the highest performing smallest assembly in the world, if we can't make it or we get 10% yields, it's it's not going to end up satisfying the customer. Yeah and that's another thing I remember feeling kind of pounding my head against a wall like you know now that I'm on the EDA side of the market right, there's such good powerful EDA tools out there and, but they won't necessarily flag you and say, no dummy you can't... Yes indeed you're right, and that's exactly what ends up happening. I mean we've gone through designs where people expect to get a certain level of performance and all the materials are there, the components are there and we find that one aspect was missed and you know, there could be copper roughness. Oh we didn't account for that right. So you know we get, hey I'm getting minus 3db down from what I expect to be getting that's a huge loss it’s almost double. Yes so there's what you model and then there’s reality. My friend used to say, there's what you simulate and then there's physics. Exactly then there's, yeah physics gets in the way right? And then John Toussaint who actually works for you guys, his favorite line used to, be physics trumps theory. Right very true. Right? So you know there's just limitations to what we can manufacture so well this is a really, really great again as I said I wish I had the ability to be the one that wrote this but I'm so delighted. I think it's truly a great service not only to your customers but just to the industry to get this information out because it's sorely needed and to my ability no one has really put this out you know... No I'll be very honest if an a hadn't worked so hard on this project it never would have been realized either so thank you for pushing on this project and driving it forward I do think it will be helpful to great many people and who knows, maybe there'll be some addition to this in the future. Yeah that would be great and I know you guys have written one actually which maybe is another Podcast series we can talk about… The rigid flax which is that is becoming more and more. We're actually seeing the two integrated in some instances. Yeah when I was referring to that one design that's exactly what we're talking about. Yeah IMS flex RF FR4, multilayer blind and buried vias and flex later. Right and the middle core I'm sorry I left that out. Oh good lord... but manufacturable - piece of cake! Can’t you give me. you know $10 off that board John? Sure exactly we're gonna deal on price, but you know, you do what you can there and you know you've got to try to make it. You've got to try to make it successfully and usually we try to make it for a cost. Of course like people, not everyone really understands. I wish I could take every designer and engineer and they would be like forced to go through board shops like five times. You're right. I mean we even created a tool for that called PCB 101 just to kind of give you a good overview. Once you start breaking it down and you think of the circuit board processing as each path is in itself a process right. Then you start to add up all the processes that the board is exposed to as it goes to the manufacturing operation. When we get to some of these complex designs it might be going through 150 - 200 different operations. Yeah, exactly right. And all of them have potential risks so absolutely... Yeah people don't really… you know, we've come to sort of take for granted printed circuit board manufacturing. I think we're all impressed with semiconductors and their performance and bla bla bla - boards are… they're dumb and they’re just boards and they just lay there or whatever.. except unless that that board is made right none of those parts work. And with high-speed digital ou have controlled impedance with RF its dielectric constant line width and loss. So I mean you've got one or the other. Yeah and now with the added dimension of thermal management, since people are becoming a much more... which is fantastic because it can offer performance levels that weren't even theoretically possible just you know five ten fifteen years ago you know. So let's talk about where people can find the book first which I think is on the iConnect007 website correct? That's correct. And and then where can people find more information about ASC John? They can go  to www.asc-i.com. Okay let me check that one more time - www dot ASC (that’s American Standard Circuits) dash-i dot com - okay very good. So is there anything else that I may have not covered or asked you relative to this awesome book you just put out? No it's just all I do, is just encourage people to give it a read, say that it's downloadable for free. Yes it doesn’t get less expensive right? It doesn't get less expensive. So you basically just put in your name and your email and download it and it’s a PDF right? So it's a digital ebook. I'm gonna look over just to get a little bit of agreement, that is in PDF form is that correct? Yes it’s in PDF form. Excellent okay PDF form and, here at Design Con you guys have brought a limited number of hard copies to give away so I'm sure those will be appreciated and and I'm sure once you start getting readers you'll probably end up printing out more of those but, well thanks so much for your time okay. So now for the fun stuff I'm going to ask you two fun questions. First what is your favorite techie gadget that you own? Wow that's difficult… Like that you can't live without... Well I mean everybody's gonna say their smartphone nowadays but besides that, yeah I'll be honest, no I always go back to home entertainment. I'm sorry okay. Well hey that is totally okay. Do you have like a pimped-out home entertainment? I have a pimped-out setup at home. Okay let's hear it let's hear the specs! It's got over a horsepower of wattage, it’s considerable it's got 13 speakers. It's a little excessive - nuts. People say I’m nuts when they go into my house but that's alright. Is it like a home theater.. little home... wait how big is your screen? It's only 60 inches I'm trying trying to talk five feet I'm trying to talk the wife into the 80 inch OLED but for some reason that thirteen thousand dollar price tag is a little steep. So we're gonna wait for the price point to go down. My second question is… I know you're not a printed circuit board designer but a lot of us techie people have kind of interesting creative hobbies and things. I'll be honest I'm the exception to that. No I shouldn't say that actually... actually I've been a bit of a computer nerd always have been, uh used to spend way too much time on computers. I think I set my first network up at home to be able to online game with, or at least network game with buddies back in 93. So you're dating yourself? Yes I am. I was there. Right but I know you can't stop getting older Judy, so... That's right. Okay I decided I'm gonna start counting backwards on my birthdays, that's how I'm solving that. Okay so anything else or shall we wrap up here? Is there anything else you wanted to share that I might have left out John? I think we pretty much covered everything Judy, appreciate the opportunity. Oh and is there anything of note that you guys, other than booths and talking to a whole bunch of people for a couple days. Is there anything else that you guys are bringing besides your book to this show that may be of interest to or listeners? I don't have any specifics that come to mind. I mean the reality is this is what we're working on right now. We're bringing this effort forward and hopefully, like I said, people will find value in that but the nice thing is there's our rigid flex expert Dave Lackey and myself so when we come here we try to bring some value to the people that might stop by Okay so while I have you recorded on it, will you promise to say... send Dave Lackey back to talk to us about rigid flex? Well we will round them up and send them in here okay? Great tie them up okay! Great well John thank you so much and thank you again for taking the time and effort to put this book out. I think it's going to be of great value to the industry for certain. Your customers and I really appreciate that laminate chart you put together - I wish I had that a long time ago. Exactly. Well thank you very much and have a great show. Thank you again this has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack Podcast please remember to subscribe and add us to your favorite RSS feeds and we look forward to talking to you next time and always stay OnTrack. 

In which our heroes age rapidly, begin to mumble, and get put in a home as we discuss Old, Getting/People. We discuss basic madness, the confusing nature of a pulse beat, and try to get a handle on androids. Jackson sheds a tear for the last Barry, Zoe reminds everyone of Pasquale Mario, the third Mario Brother, and Adam just wishes Jackson was better at describing monkeys. So smack your gums, tell the pots and pans to be quiet, and take a bath in the rejuvenating pool from the film cocoon. If we remember that film correctly. Which I'm pretty sure we don't. Want to help make Pasquale Brother a real game? Head to http://www.patreon.com/sanspantsradio and for as little as $1 a month, we can start coding his orange hat. In Sydney and want to see the Plumbing Boys live? You can purchase your tickets right here https://www.trybooking.com/MQZP. And don’t forget to purchase your copy of Plumbing the Death Star Vol. 1 right now available at https://audiobooksontape.com/shop/plumbing-death-star-bonus/. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Since episode #0 was an introduction to who I am and what I do, this quick and brief episode is meant to give you an introduction to the Life Made Simple Podcast, what it's all about, and what to expect in future episodes. While simplicity is the Life Made Simple Podcast's theme, the categories that we're going to talk about are going to be all areas of life: Home (de-cluttering all rooms of your house, including paper piles) Time (managing all your to-dos and how to schedule them) Health (diet, exercise, and even weight-loss goals) Relationships (marriage, parenting, friendships) Mind (your mood, attitudes, outlooks, values, negative vs. positive thinking and so on). The goal of this podcast is to explore the idea of finding simplicity in all areas of our life.  During future episodes, we'll be talking about and learning together how to let go of what's holding us back from being who we want to be and focus on only the things that bring us true happiness. You can expect to hear a brand new episode every Monday morning. Those episodes will cover certain topics such as how to un-clutter your house, how to build better will power, what to do about people in your life that bring you stress, the best way to manage your to-do list, how to schedule exercise into your life.  These are just a few examples of topics that we'll be covering. Every once in awhile, the Monday morning episode will be called "CarlaRae Confesses". During those episodes I'll be confessing and talking about certain areas of my own life that I need extra help in... areas of my life that I need to simplify. Every once in awhile we'll be having a special "Ask CarlaRae" episode. During those episodes I'll be answering questions that you, my listeners have for me. If you ever have a topic that you want me to cover, or a problem that you want my help solving, or if you just need some ideas to help simplify certain areas of your life, feel free to submit your questions and comments on my website. Just go to CarlaRaeArneson.com/askcarlarae. Or you can email me directly to AskCarlaRae@CarlaRaeArneson.com Down the line, we're also planning to have a few guest speakers and interviews for our Monday morning episodes. Which I'm really excited about! So stay tuned for those. In addition to the Monday morning episode that we release, the Life Made Simple Podcast will also be featuring a "3-Minute Thursday" episode. Every Thursday morning I will give you a quick and brief dose of inspiration and motivation to keep you going through the end of your week.   Links Mentioned on the Show: Website: CarlaRaeArneson.com Share this Podcast: LifeMadeSimplePodcast.com Free Guide:  "9 Ways to Simplify Your Life"   (CarlaRaeArneson.com/freeguide) Submit Questions: CarlaRaeArneson.com/AskCarlaRae Share this Episode: CarlaRaeArneson.com/episode1 Full Transcript of this Episode: CarlaRaeArneson.com/transcript1

Fujioka & Hayami are back to show the new kids how we do it old-school this spring. Igadevil is back and is so excited, he has no clue how to string together a coherent sentence. Fortunately, he has some help from Down Under.In This Episode: • Rider Break! returns for the bajillionth time, utterly failing to produce any new episodes since October 2013! There's reasons, but I don't get into those this week.• For the first time ever, the show has a guest host! Craig of the Repacked Podcast joins in to discuss the exciting news about Heisei Rider vs. Showa Rider: Kamen Rider Taisen feat. Super Sentai. Primarily this consists of me talking, and him making the episode actually interesting to listen to. Basically, I just recorded and edited down the kind of chats we have every week.• Various things are touched on, such as the current status of the classic Rider actors, the aging (or lack thereof) of cyborgs, what I like the Kamen Rider name to stand for (most of the time) and the shocking true origin of the Henshin pose! Which I'm sure I've mentioned before somewhere else!Episodes Notes:• Music used includes:"Let's Go!! Rider Kick 2006" by Hiroshi Fujioka (excerpt) Get it on amazon.co.jp"Sega Saturn, Shiro!" by MoJo (yes, that one)• As the conversation was recorded via Skype Recorder, it's a bit more muffled than the usual level of audio quality for the latest episodes (but probably better than earlier Rider Break! episodes.) This was my decision as it was just an experiment and something I thought up on the quick. I might stick with this in the future, or try the "everybody records and I edit later" approach like the pros! We'll see.• This was recorded on Saturday, January 18th, and has now gone on the site a few days later, so it was before the first real trailer hit. I had seen a variation of it in theaters, minus the Rider 1 vs. Gaim bit at the end, and I wasn't sure at the time if Haruto was in the movie or not (he is.) Also, we did indeed record that HJU Radio episode the next day!• The time-displaced Samurai movie I was trying to think of is called Ghost Warrior in the US, and SF Sword Kill in Japan.• As we mention more than a few times, check out the Repacked Podcast. I'm on it sometimes!• My deepest thanks again go to Craig for being a good sport and joining in to keep things flowing. As mentioned, this won't be the last episode to feature a guest or two (or more) though I'm not sure yet of the who's, when's, where's and why's.• That very-long-delayed Q & A episode will finally be next. Like, hopefully before-the-end-of-the-month next After that, the one I originally planned on being about the last two episodes of Wizard will happen at some point, in greatly expanded form. I'll talk a bit about other upcoming and long-overdue episodes in a future post.Timestamps:00:00 - Watch those speakers!04:17 - The actual conversation starts here!01:14:30-something - I said it would be short!• Thanks for listening!Get The EpisodeDownload hereRider Break! on iTunesOr listen here:

Movie Meltdown - Episode 66.2 Come on down to the creek!! This week's Sofa Theater  feature is BLOOD CREEK. Joel Schumacher brings us this take on a supernatural nazi zombie. But where does this movie fall on the Schumacher scale... near the top with The Lost Boys or all the way down to Batman and Robin?? Plus feedback from our supportive podcasting family and news of our upcoming Sofa Theater features. "It's actually kind of a thinking horror movie."   "Which I'm not used to." Warning:  Lots of zombie horses and spoilers!