Podcast appearances and mentions of peter yes

Join us for the latest episode of the Manager Minute podcast, where host Carol Pankow sits down with the incredible Serina Gilbert, Cheryl Carver, and Peter Pike from Colorado's Pathways to Partnership DIF Grant! In this episode, they dive into their groundbreaking Pathways to Partnership project, a collaborative initiative designed to enhance outcomes for children and youth with disabilities. Discover how they're embedding VR counselors in schools, launching the innovative “Map My Transition” app, and partnering with Centers for Independent Living to create a brighter future. Tune in as the team shares valuable insights, learning experiences they've faced, and what's on the horizon for the grant's second year. Don't miss this inspiring conversation about transforming lives through partnership and innovation! Listen Here   Full Transcript:   {Music} Serina: To support the families that are surrounding these young adults with disabilities, as well, to help them gain the skills to be able to help those students move into competitive, integrated employment.   Peter: The centers for Independent Living are required to deliver core services in one core service is supporting young adults transitioning into high school.   Cheryl: We will actually incorporate those components of the six core skill sets and the age ranges, along with all of those local partners into map my transition.   Serina: Gosh, there's so many things we're doing.   Intro Voice: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today are the Tri-Force from Colorado, Serina Gilbert, Cheryl Carver, and Peter Pike, Co-project, directors for Colorado Partnerships for Partnership DIF Grant. So how are things going for you, Serina?   Serina: I'm doing fantastic. I like that word Tri-Force. It feels really, really fancy. It's October here and it's like almost 80 degrees, so I'm happy.   Carol:  Ahh, good for you. You know what? In fact, I had to use a little ChatGPT because I said, well, how could I describe a fearsome threesome? And they gave me all these different things. And I went, I'm going to go Tri-Force. I really liked it.   Serina: So don't tell people your AI secrets. You came up with that all on your own. you did it.   Carol: I know, I know, how about you, Cheryl? You are old hat at this. I got to talk to you a couple years ago, which was super fun. So Cheryl's like the podcast queen now. She's on this twice.   Cheryl: I'm with Serina, though. I liked that word too. I thought it was empowering. I think this is awesome. We're going to have to use that again. Things are going well. Always busy though, you know, and the DIF grant has added to that, but in an awesome way in terms of growing, expanding and learning. So we're excited to be here today.   Carol: Awesome. And Peter, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited you are on. How are you doing?   Peter: Well, I got to tell you, I'm a little nervous. This is my first time joining a podcast, so I'm not sure how it's going to go, but I appreciate the opportunity. And I'm coming off of two big meetings today, one with the Centers for Independent Living, where we get to get caught up on priority topics, and of course, our Disability Innovation team meeting. We meet on a regular basis. So the timing is great.   Carol: Good. Well, you're all bringing the energy. So that's great. So I just want to do a little quick refresher for our listeners so they understand what the earth we're talking about. So I have been doing different series on the Disability Innovation Fund grants. And this particular grant has to do with the Pathways to Partnership grant that was funded by RSA, and it supports projects aimed at fostering deeper collaboration between agencies. Turning these collaborations into true partnerships, and the projects aim to enhance service delivery by piloting cohesive models that better manage resources, while coordinating efforts to improve outcomes for children and youth with disabilities and their support systems, ultimately facilitating smoother transitions. And Colorado is wrapping up the first year of the grants. So let's dive in and see how things are progressing. All right. So let's get into it Serina, I'm going to kick off with you first. Could you just start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you got involved in VR?   Serina: Sure. So you already know my name is Serina Gilbert, and I'm currently a program manager under our youth services team with the Division of Voc Rehab here in Colorado. I actually got involved with VR because I was a recipient of VR services way back when, when I was in college, and while I was receiving services, I kind of flipped the script around, I was like, well, what do you do? This looks fun. Like, I want to learn this. So I got my master's and a few years later, here I am. So I've always enjoyed working with youth. That's always been my passion and I'm super excited to even be in this role.   Carol: Awesome. So, Peter, what's your journey to get to VR? Tell us a little bit about you.   Peter: Well, that's a great question. My name is Peter Pike and I work for what's called the Colorado Office of Independent Living Services, which is part of the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation. And I got to tell you, for a couple decades, I actually worked outside of the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation as a vendor and as like a community partner on different grants. And a few years back, Colorado established this Office of Independent Living Services, dedicated to working with nonprofits called the Centers for Independent Living. That's how I got involved with the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, and I'm also a person with a Non-visible disability. And so this fits very nicely in terms of my philosophy and being part of the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation.   Carol: I love that because you bring a whole other perspective. Having come from that vendor field. So you've got some things going on that can contribute greatly to the agency and this project for sure. And Cheryl, last but not least, you know, it's been two years, but let's tell our listeners again a little bit about you and your journey into VR.   Cheryl: Well, mine is not as direct as Peter's or Serina. Again, my name is Cheryl Carver. I am the second program manager we have here in the state of Colorado under Voc Rehab for our youth services and transition programming. So Serina and I work very closely together. I kind of fell into this by accident, but I have always been in healthcare related fields. I've worked for the independent living centers. I've also worked in assisted living and I worked as a vendor as well with DVR in the mental health sector. After that, I really lucked out and was able to apply for a position. That was 24 years ago and I joined the youth services team 20 years ago, so it's been an indirect path, but once I found my niche, I have loved growing in this position with youth services at the administrative level.   Carol: I love it, you know, no matter which way, if you come in a direct way or lots of people, it's kind of a long and winding road to get into VR. Whatever way you get here, we love the energy you all are bringing, and we think it's great because people are bringing all kinds of different perspectives to the work now. I was super excited about your project when I was reading through RSA's website and looking at the little synopsis, and I'm like, oh, I got to grab the Colorado people first. You're the first in my group on this particular topic, and I understand that your project has multiple components. Can you give our listeners a little overview of the project and what you aim to accomplish? And I think, Serina, you were going to kind of give us the big picture to start out with.   Serina: Yes, it's a very big picture. So I'm sorry. We dreamed really big when we saw this grant posting last spring. We saw a lot of opportunity in our state to maybe help build some capacity and some connectedness throughout the state. So one piece of it is we started out by deciding to build what we're calling interdisciplinary teams. And what that is, is traditionally in Colorado, we don't usually have DVR counselors housed specifically in the school districts. We do have counselors that liaison with the district, but they are not like actually full time there. So we actually just did some hiring, and we'll have a couple of counselors starting in the next few weeks that will be housed directly in the local school districts and embedded with the school transition teams to make sure that services are able to be delivered to the students with disabilities within those districts. Another super exciting part that coincides with that is that there'll be services provided by the Centers for Independent Living, which Peter will talk a little bit more about as well, to make sure that there's a dedicated service provider to be able to help support those teams. And one really big, huge thing that we're really excited about is what's going to be called Map My Transition. And we jokingly call this the You are Here Website. So it's going to be a website and iOS app and an Android app designed for students, their families, educators and service providers and other community agencies within the state of Colorado. And the way that it'll work is we'll start from the student perspective, as the student will create an account on the site, they'll be asked a few questions about where they reside and what their long and short term goals are, and then they'll be presented with customized resources and videos that are specific to what their needs are, and specifically, how to get connected with the agencies that can support them. The super exciting part about that is that that also allows kind of that turnover resistant piece of things, because The educators and the service providers can also see that same list of community providers that are specific to their geographic region. So if somebody leaves a position, the next person can come into that position and get connected on this website and instantly know who their community partners are within their geographic area to connect with.   Carol: I love that app idea though.   Serina: I'm so excited about it.   Carol: Well, you know, when you talk about kids like students, man, they're not. Don't email them. They're not out looking on the internet.   serina: No.   Carol: like their phone is their life. Like they need everything to be direct connect that way. That's how they're going to, you're very smart to go that route.   Serina: Yeah. So we're super excited. Also gosh, there's so many things we're doing also to support the students. We are partnering with our family led organizations to support the families that are surrounding these young adults with disabilities, as well, to help them gain the skills to be able to help those students move into competitive, integrated employment. But then that's not all, I feel like a game show host.   Carol: Do tell more.   Serina: I know, I know. I'll have Cheryl talk a little bit about our interagency transition building as well, because that Map My Transition is also going to support that aspect of what we're doing here in Colorado.   Carol: I think that's cue to you, Cheryl.   Cheryl: I was just going to say, is that my cue? so five years ago, Colorado began an initiative through the National Assistance Center on Transition Coalition, and we began looking around the state to identify where our own gaps and weaknesses were as it pertains to interagency coordination teams. What we discovered were several of the components that Serina has mentioned that we hope to build into Map My Transition. Things like we were having trouble sustaining interagency transition teams, and that was due in large part because of turnover and staff. When interagency transition teams were coming together locally, they placed those responsibilities with an individual instead of their position. And as a result of that, once that person left, there was nobody to continue on with the work. And these interagency transition teams just eventually dissolved. Additionally, they really didn't have any goals that kept them together and gave them a reason for continuing to come together. So we wanted to help the local partners rediscover their interagency transition teams, identify tools that would help bring them together and give them an actual purpose. As a result of that work, what we created was a workbook for all partners that come to the table locally in these interagency transition team efforts, every partner at that table is required to identify within six core skill set areas that we've put together an age range, what services they actually provide. That way, when education is working on developing an IEP, an Individualized Education Program, or other entities sitting around the table like the division of Voc Rehab, developing their individualized plans for employment, we can look and see what areas does this student need to grow in, depending upon their age and their skill gap. With that, then we can pick and choose and strategically work together towards the same goals with that student. So we actually have coordinated student outcomes. We are not duplicating services. The challenge we faced was that the workbook, because we didn't have any backing to help us complete this, is overwhelming and it's difficult to use. And as a result of that, again, this is where Map My Transition comes in. We will actually incorporate those components of the six core skill sets and the age ranges, along with all of those local partners into Map My Transition so it will be easier for all users, whether it is the youth themselves or a family member, or any one of the number of entities that sit around an interagency transition table to be able to go in and see, we know what the students ultimate goals are, and these are the areas we are working on. So let's take a look at and consider what are the choices for the service providers. So I am also extremely excited about Map My Transition, because I think it is going to be fabulous in terms of what we are envisioning to create, as well as to help interagency transition teams accomplish that coordinated student outcome.   Carol: I think that is going to be super replicable across the country, like the work you guys are putting into that, because I know that's one of the things with the DIF grant, they're hoping that some of the things you all create are going to help other states out there. And that particular piece, I think that's fascinating. I think that sounds really cool.   Cheryl: I agree. So with that, we'll take it to the next level, if you will, and continue to enhance, we hope at least. What else would do you want me to kick it back to you, Serina, for apprenticeships or family member training?   Serina: I forgot about our apprenticeship piece because we're just doing so many things. We shot for the moon, right?   Carol: Yes, yes you did. There's like, 20 moving parts on this thing. I'm like, wow.   Serina: Cheryl is correct. One other aspect was to make sure that we're connecting young adults with apprenticeship and pre-apprenticeship opportunities. So we are partnering with our apprenticeship representatives here in Colorado within the Department of Labor and Employment, called Apprenticeship Colorado, and they will be helping the counselors and the interagency teams learn about how to connect with employers for apprenticeships and actually be developing apprenticeships in the areas that we're serving. And then they're also going to create training for us to put on Map My Transition for future reference, but also train our staff on it. I did talk a little bit about the family led organizations in the training, but what we didn't talk a lot about was the Centers for Independent Living Partnerships, and I'd love for Peter to be able to cover that a little bit for us.   Carol: Peter, I know you're passionate about those CILs for sure.   Peter: Yeah, I always love the opportunity to talk about the Centers for Independent Living. And maybe a starting point is to just briefly talk about what is the Center for Independent Living, right? These are nonprofit organizations that actually exist in every state of the Union. And so in Colorado, we have nine centers for independent living that are focused on helping people with disabilities of all ages, any disability type, living as independently as they can. And I want to be clear, that doesn't mean they are residential facilities. These non-profits are not residential facilities. They are non-profits that we have contracts with to support people living independently in the community, and they are a key partner. One of the great things about this grant is there was a requirement that Centers for Independent Living be part of this grant. And so with that, it really accentuates some of the strengths that they have. There are two things that come to mind. Number one is the Centers for Independent Living provide peer support services. What that means is that these organizations have over 50% people with disabilities from the board of directors, all the way down to their entry level staff. And that is key because an emphasis of this program is peer support services. So in their work for this grant, that's what they're going to be doing, is working with young adults in high school, transitioning out of high school to Address and navigate some of the adult issues that come up, whether that be employment, post-secondary education and otherwise. So that's an important strength. The second strength that I believe the Centers for Independent Living offer is that this service system you don't age out of just because you turn 18 doesn't mean, oh no, now there's another program I need to join. As I said earlier, Centers for Independent Living serve all ages of all disability types. So that provides a key continuity of services as folks transition out of high school into what's next. So in addition to that, the Centers for Independent Living will have contracts with the centers for Independent Living, serving on the interagency teams and some of the expectations in terms of the services they're going to be providing are things like benefits, planning services, things like financial literacy. They'll be focused on supporting and educating people on accessing what are called ABLE accounts. Able stands for achieving a Better Life Experience, but it's an opportunity for these young adults to actually increase their assets and resources. In addition to that, they will also be serving as vendors for the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation. And so those are key elements that they'll play in working alongside the interagency transition teams with the school districts, with the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation. So it is a great opportunity for those organizations to really illustrate their strengths and the difference they make in the lives of people with disabilities.   Carol: I love that you are leveraging the Centers for Independent Living, because I think sometimes people I don't know, they're there, but you sort of forget about them as being a resource for more than maybe folks are thinking about. Oh, somebody needs a ramp to get into their house. Let's call the CILs, you know, type of thing. But they have a lot more going for them. And they're strategically positioned throughout your state and in every state. You know, they're all throughout all the geographic areas. So they're excellent partner to leverage. When you're looking at an endeavor like this I think that's smart.   Peter: You know Carol, it also fills one more gap. Like the Centers for Independent Living are required to deliver core services, and one core service is supporting young adults transitioning into high school. So with this particular project, they're actually working with youth in the schools. That's not necessarily part of their core services. So it really complements the opportunity to start the work earlier and support it ongoing even when they're out of high school.   Carol: Yeah, I really like that, Peter, I think that is so great. So I know you guys are you know, you're at the end of year one and you made it. You made it through year one. What kind of learning experiences. And I love it because I'm not going to say what sort of challenges did you have? What learning experiences have you had so far? Cheryl, I think I'm kicking that to you.   Cheryl: You are. So while this is a multi-pronged approach that we are taking, if you will, with several different outcomes for each one, we have encountered challenges that we have had to overcome or lessons we have had to learn along the entire way, starting from the very beginning with communication. Even between this Tri-Force. And I don't think it's a terrible thing to mention. That was one of the things that the grant reviewers brought up how, as three managers, are you going to do this job together? And we were like, we can manage this, we can handle this. We did. We had to learn how to communicate well together. We had to understand one another's styles and figure out what worked best for each of us in order to come together, agree upon things and respect when somebody didn't, and hear them out, even if that was not the direction we were going to go in. Inclusion has been another one. While we put above everything equity and diversity and inclusion. Just because we are the division of Voc Rehab, it's still easy to overlook or forget to give certain audiences the opportunity to have a say in things, especially something this large. And when you're moving forward and you've got deadlines and timelines, having to take a step back and say, wait a minute, did we check with everyone is really, really hard. So fortunately, again, because there's three of us, we always have that one that raises their hand and says, wait a minute, did we do that? So it's good to have that piece there. When we're working with our planning and advisory team or other partners around the table, we are also learning all about marketing and how to go about getting the marketing. We need to message things correctly and deliver that message out there to the communities about things as simple as trainings that we hope to offer to family members in partnership with our parental consortium here in Colorado. We are maintaining, I think maintaining is a good word, maintaining a huge, massive budget and having to be willing to be flexible within that budget. We are given certain parameters to operate within, and we have to go about getting changes approved periodically. But every time we turn around, there's been another new need or a new requirement or oh, wait a minute, we calculated that wrong. So we've got to go back and recalculate it. It has absolutely been, I think, a learning process for all of us. Another area that we have worked very diligently in is just as a state government, where we have had to learn different processes and procedures. Things have taken longer than we expected, having to write reports in certain manners or fill out certain forms. That in and of itself has been a hurdle that we have had to overcome together in regards to learning things.   Carol: You guys are not unique. I mean, I do ask this question of everybody when I'm talking about the DIF grants, just because the learning opportunities you've had this first year, it is really common because there are so many systems and practices and processes within each state. Everybody's got their own little nuances and things. And when it isn't your everyday job to navigate those and you now are co-directing, you know, this Tri-Force and this lovely DIF grant, and you're getting exposed to all these other processes that you didn't know about. It is quite a learning curve just to get through all of that. And once you get it figured out, then you fundamentally go, okay, you know, year two gets easier. It's like, all right, now we figured out all the pieces of the process and it gets better as you go along. So that is common. Everybody, I don't think I've talked to anybody across the country that hasn't had that as well. So I think you guys stated that really nicely. Now I know you all when I got to visit with you a little earlier, you had mentioned that you had this really important realization about your service model and that maybe it doesn't work like you thought it was going to work. When you are conceptualizing something and then you're going to put it into practice. So I don't know. Peter, can you talk a little bit more about that?   Peter: Yes, thanks. I'd be happy to. So as we've been talking, we talk about establishing three pilot sites or three interagency teams. And so we went through a process with our planning and advisory team, came up with a matrix, and we were able to identify three sites. And so we have this vision in this model about how those sites are going to be implemented and moving forward, including the Centers for Independent Living. And so one of the communities where we are working to establish a pilot site is in northwestern Colorado. And the school district that's involved is based out of a rural community, but it's also a mountainous resort community. And so what that means is the cost of living in that particular area actually is pretty high. And there's been articles on it within the city and across the state talking about challenges, just filling some government positions in that community. And so as we were having conversations with that interagency team, particularly the Center for Independent Living, that serves not just that community, but a five county area, they talked about the challenges. If we're going to have a contract with and bringing on a staff because the wage and the affordability for someone to live in the community that they're serving don't align very well. And so we've had to sort of pause and talk with our local partners about, man, what does this need to look like in order to meet the needs of the students and families in that school district, and at the same time, navigate some of these real issues around the cost of living. And so we're taking some extra steps in working with the Center for Independent Living and the school district to identify maybe where do we need to bring in new partners or other partners, or what are alternative ways to deliver the services that are necessary to meet the needs of the youth and families, right? Just because you're living in a resort area doesn't mean everybody is of the same economic class. And so our aim with this project is to make sure we're serving underrepresented communities. And sometimes socioeconomic status is kind of an important factor in that way. And so we have to take more time and understand how best to meet the needs of that community and how it might look different than the other two communities where we're continuing to move forward with all the parts.   Carol: That's a really excellent observation. I know VR has been facing this ever since the pandemic, kind of across the country, especially as people moved, you know, we had like floods of people moving to Florida, people moved into Idaho and different communities. And I know the directors have said, boy, it's impacted the program in different ways because now you have whole communities where they've had this big population move in and all the prices have gone up. And so it's tough even to get counselors and different staff working in these different regions and even to get vendors in those regions because the cost of living is so expensive. So you've got people there who've been there for many years, but yet new people are coming in and you've just got this kind of mire of crazy economic conditions that make it really difficult to navigate all of that for the consumers that are in those areas. So that is a really good realization you had. Now, I know we're on year two like you're three days into year two. You guys, what are your plans for year two? Miss Serina.   Serina: Sound like I'm in trouble.   Carol: Oh, no.   Serina: No, no. We have a lot like we talked about it a little bit earlier where we're hiring the school based rehabilitation counselors. We're well into that. And making sure that they have the training and support that they need to get started with everything. We're super excited because we're in the early stages of planning their kickoff meetings, where we'll be on site with each of the teams and help them, A, get on the same page and like kind of level set everything like so everyone has all the same information. And then one of the bigger pieces is that they all walk away with a tangible plan for how they're going to initially start collaborating and coordinating services with one another. So we're super excited about that. Another thing that I'm really personally excited about, because I'm kind of a marketing and social media dork in a way, is we're going to be coming up with some branding and a way to refer to this grant that resonates with the people that we're serving with students, families, educators, and, you know, the service providers that are working with us. Saying DIF grant, unfortunately, doesn't mean much to the average person. And there's a lot of DIF grants now. I believe they just funded the fifth or sixth round of them. So.   Carol: Oh yeah, and there's like 28 of those or something.   Serina: Yeah.   Carol: so there's a bunch   Serina: There's a lot. So we're super, super excited to get some branding and social media going and things like that to get people excited about what we're doing. Um, what else are we doing? Team what am I missing? Those are some really big things that we're doing.   Carol: Do you have anything cool that you're doing with the branding? Like can you share if there's something little or is it all top secret right now.   Serina: No, we just, thanks to our grant manager, Lauren Riley, and our program assistant, Amy Smith, they found us a marketing agency, and we're going to be meeting with them in the next couple of weeks so that they can talk through kind of what our needs are and things like that, and then they're going to have some focus groups with stakeholders to get their input and see what resonates. So I'm super excited.   Carol: Very cool. Very cool.   Peter: You know, Serina, thanks, sort of opened up an opportunity to talk about family and youth engagement. And one of the opportunities we have with this project is we actually can pay honorariums to young adults and families to participate, particularly on the planning and advisory team. And so we definitely want to hear the voice of the people we're serving and bring them to the table so that as we bring this to life, we have their input from the beginning.   Carol: Yeah, I love that, that's great, you guys, the energy of the three of you, it is super funny. I can feel it like our listeners can't see it. But coming off the zoom screen. Like it is so fun. I think you three complement each other very nicely. Now, I know for our listeners, you know, sometimes people want to reach out to you. I know you're in your initial stages, but sometimes folks just have questions or they're super interested, like Map My Transition, they're gonna be like, when's that going to be ready? Because we want to borrow it like we want all of that. Do you have an email or something you can share with our folks on a way to contact you?   Cheryl: We'd like to direct those questions to our actual grant manager, who is Lauren Riley, and her email address is l a u r e n dot R i l e y at state dot co dot US.   Carol: Excellent. Now that's helpful because otherwise the stuff goes kind of all over. And I do end up hearing back from the different folks we've had podcasts with. They're like, oh, we had some people reach out. So I'm hoping folks will do that. Are you three going to be at the CSVAR conference?   Cheryl: Not the upcoming one.   Carol: Possibly in the spring?   Cheryl: Maybe.   Carol: Yeah, because then people can track you down there as well.   Peter: I'd like to. Next time you talk to Kristen, say, hey, Kristen. Sending Peter to the CSVAR conference?   Carol: I'll put in a plug for you, Peter. That's awesome. Well, you three have been an absolute delight and I really appreciate your time. And I'm hoping I get to check in with you down the road to see how things are going. And I wish you the very best with this project. Have a great day.   Cheryl: Thank you, Carol.   Serina: Thanks so much, Carol.   Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Picture this: Three successful Amazon sellers from each corner of the globe sat down in a quaint Italian café, their journeys colliding over a shared passion for selling on Amazon. In this episode, we're chatting with Peter and Franco, our guests who symbolize the true essence of a global Amazon seller. Born in the US, raised in Australia, and operating out of Asia, Peter's journey through the world of Amazon selling is a fascinating tale. Then we have Franco, an Italian native who transitioned from a traditional upbringing to become a leading e-commerce entrepreneur. We listen to their stories, not just the triumphs but also the trials, like the time Franco's competitor created fake test reports to tarnish his reputation. Venture with us as Franco shares his extraordinary journey as an Amazon seller. From hitting his peak year of gross sales to navigating the fiercely competitive medical device field category, his story truly is a rollercoaster ride. Then we turn to Peter, who climbed to the number one spot in the health and personal care category within a mere three weeks. His dedication to producing reliable products and setting the right price point made him a standout entrepreneur. His unwavering commitment to his product and the pursuit of excellence are lessons for every budding e-commerce entrepreneur. As we bid our Italian farewell, we delve into Franco and Peter's strategies for success, from image testing to understanding European selling regulations and leveraging social media. Get a peek into Franco's vision of reaching nine figures and perhaps even owning a football team in Italy. We draw the final curtain discussing the potential of the Italian Amazon community and the role Amazon plays in shaping the European market. Join us for this riveting conversation brimming with success stories, challenges, and unique experiences in the world of Amazon selling. We promise it's worth the listen! In episode 509 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Franco, and Peter discuss: 00:00 - From Italy to Amazon 01:55 - Discovering Cultural Diversity in a Podcast 04:01 - From Australia to Italy 11:21 - Launching Products in Global Markets 14:58 - Challenges and Successes on Amazon 16:29 - Medical Device Field Competition and Tactics 24:32 - Strategies for Amazon Success 27:54 - Challenges With Listing Product on Amazon  32:35 - European Market Testing and Selling Strategies 36:21 - Discussion on Translations for International Marketplaces  39:25 - Italian Farewell and Appreciation for Italy ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got sellers in the show that I originally met in Italy and now they're selling millions of dollars on Amazon. We're going to hear their story, which includes a case where one of their competitors even sent fake reports to the media about their product safety in order to get them kicked off of Amazon. How crazy is that? Pretty crazy, I think. What was your gross sales yesterday, last week, last year? More importantly, what are your profits after all, your cost of selling on Amazon? Did you pay any storage charges to Amazon? How much did you spend on PPC? Find out these key metrics and more by using the Helium 10 tool Profits. For more information, go to h10.me forward slash profits. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers podcast by Helium 10. I am your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show. That's a completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed, organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. And today we are doing what I think is a first we are having a three continent podcast at the same time. We're not recording this separately. I'm here in North America, we've got Peter, who, I believe, is in the Asian continent, and we've got Franco, who is in Europe. So welcome to the show. And the funny thing is, I met all of them in person, at least in Italy, which is why I'm wearing my Mona Lisa shirt, my Mona Lisa shirt, here. So anyways, welcome to the show, guys, and good afternoon and good morning to Franco, and it's good evening here. Peter: Thanks for having us. Bradley Sutton: Now I, as I said, I met these gentlemen at a conference in Milan, Italy, recently and you know, just talking to them a little bit and I was like man, all right, I don't want to know too much more because this sounds interesting and I just love to find out about the rest of you know your stories. You know, along with everybody else, the podcast. Now, that was like a couple months ago. So the cool thing is, you know, with my terrible memory, the little that they did tell me I've already forgotten. So, guys, I am going to be learning everything you know, right, right with you, with all the listeners today. So let's, first of all, you know the first thing that that that blew me away was, here's Peter, and you guys can't see him. You know he, he is, he's in Asia right now and he is of Asian descent. You know like he looks. I'm half Asian. I don't look Asian. Peter looks Asian and here he is sitting with me in this Italian restaurant and ordering in perfect Italian, like, what? Like? Do I really have jet lag? What is going on right here? Let's start with your backstory, were you? Uh, oh, yeah. And, by the way, the way he speaks English was also a little bit different, so were you. Were you born and raised in Australia, or were you born and raised? Peter: Yes, sir, I grew up in Australia, but actually I was, I was. I was born in the States. I don't know if I mentioned that in the state. Bradley Sutton: That makes it even more interesting I love it when we're about here in the States, in Minneapolis, minneapolis Okay, man, that's, that's. That's still the coldest I've ever been. Uh, not sure I want to go back there in winter, but all right. So you were in Minneapolis, and how? I mean? You know, the Minneapolis Australia connection is not very common, so how did that happen? Peter: Yeah, so if I take it back a step further, as you said, um, I'm, I'm Asian. My parents were born in China. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Peter: And they. They met in the US, so that's why I was born there, okay. And then, after um, they finished their studies, they decided they wanted to move to Australia. So when I was a baby, still be immigrated to Australia. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. And then now, growing up in Australia, what do you think you're going to be when you grow? Peter: Yeah, I didn't have any, you know, any special, different aspirations. I was like all the other kids. Bradley Sutton: Fine. Franco: Anything like that. Peter: Yeah. Bradley Sutton: Okay. Peter: I didn't think of being an entrepreneur or a commerce guy or anything like that. Bradley Sutton: Did you go to university in Australia? Peter: Yes, I did. I studied engineering Engineering. I had a very traditional upbringing? Bradley Sutton: Yeah, okay. And then, upon graduation, did you start working in that field? Peter: Yes, I did I um. So as I had no real exposure to my Asian roots, I wanted to do one year in Asia. So I ended up working in Hong Kong. So I worked in uh in Hong Kong for a little while with uh in the engineering field related to engineering. Bradley Sutton: Did you speak Chinese? Peter: I did not. That was one of the reasons why I wanted to go to Asia, because, growing up in Australia, yeah. At that time, I was the only Asian kid in school. Um, there was no real interaction with other families or anything, so, um, I just spoke English. Bradley Sutton: Okay, Now you know USA to Australia, to Hong Kong, how do you end up speaking Italian? Peter: So when I was in Hong Kong, um, I got headhunted for a job in Italy. So, yeah, I took the opportunity and went over there and um lived there for a few years and worked there for a few years. Bradley Sutton: Okay, that's cool that you learn the language. You know some people, uh, you know, go to other countries and you know years and they don't are not able to learn the language. That's a, that's a cool, uh cool skill there and and all right. So so that brings us to. I mean, obviously you're not in Italy anymore, so how long did you stay in Italy? Peter: Right, uh, I think it was about five years. About five years, about five years in a minute. Okay. Bradley Sutton: All right, and it was it during your your run in Italy there that you learned that you started on Amazon. Or how did you go from engineering to e-commerce? Peter: No. So, um, while I was in Italy, I also got headhunted for another job and I was moved to Shanghai. And while I was in Shanghai, I met a one of my friends who I did sport with, was very much into Amazon, and he always kept talking about it. And then, finally, uh, one day I said this sounds really interesting. Why don't you show me what you're doing? And I offered to invest in what he he was his business, because it sounded like it was really good. And he said no, why don't you just try yourself? So I did it as a um, as a hobby, for a while, and then eventually it became became a full time thing. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. All right. Now we're caught up to to kind of like the e-commerce list. Let's go ahead and take the journey with with Franco. Now for you it's a lot easier backstory Were you born and raised in Italy and lived there your whole life? Or or do you live in 17 million countries like, uh, peter? Franco: No, I was born and raised in Italy. I passed a couple of years in China, but it means that I was there like uh, every month of April and every month of October since 2003. So it's not was not like living permanently there. I was living in a hotel. So basically, I've been living my life in Italy. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Now. What about you? Uh, what did you go to university for? Franco: I did pure maths and when I was starting at the university, I thought that I would be doing academia after that. Okay, and then it changed my mind. Bradley Sutton: Okay, what so? Upon graduation then, what did you enter into if you didn't want to go ahead and take that route that you thought you were going to take? Franco: Yeah, I did. When I graduated I didn't really know what to do because I changed my mind. I didn't want to be a university professor of math, so I was going into my other side of me, that was, being an entrepreneur. So I did an MBA and after that MBA I worked for a couple of years as a marketing assistant in a company and during that time I founded two companies, two different ones, with friends of mine. And then I resigned and from that point I always been an entrepreneur. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. So what year did you go full-on into e-commerce? Then what did you say? Franco: I went into e-commerce probably more than 10 years ago. Bradley Sutton: Dot com or other marketplaces, or what Now? Franco: in Europe, we're selling. Bradley Sutton: At that time, what I meant was yeah, the dot com is on Europe, but what I meant was like online sales or was it like a marketplace that you were on? Franco: No, it was our own e-commerce, our own website, and I was selling on with my company. I was selling rubber trucks that are the equivalent of tire for excavators and accessories for construction equipment, so something that probably even today you cannot sell on Amazon because like super huge and super heavy. Bradley Sutton: So you exited that company and then you said you became like a full-time entrepreneur. What was that endeavor like Full-time into? Like what was your? Was it just still online sales, or now you got into Amazon, or what happened there? Franco: Okay, so well, now most of my time is well, 100% of my time is on Amazon. But yeah, the other company, the one that's now, is doing Amazon as a long story, because it started in 1999. And we've been doing so many different stuff because we started from scratch with nothing. So we started doing multimedia content, then we went into doing CD and DVD duplication that means producing physical discs, then USB flash drives, accessories for smartphones, electronics in general, and then medical devices. When we went into medical devices, we went quite big on our e-commerce. That was not something that we were doing in this company. We're doing business to business mainly. And then from that, we went into Amazon. Not that we even had tried to do Amazon before, because we opened the Amazon account in 2014. But it was just a sort of let's see what's happening there, not really investing in that. So we were becoming big on Amazon since 2020. Bradley Sutton: All right, now we're kind of caught up in a similar timeline here. Let's go back to Peter then. Are you still selling your first product today, peter? Peter: Yes, I think I started with two or three, and all of those three products I'm still selling. How? Long has that been? Bradley Sutton: I started in 2017. Peter: Wow. Bradley Sutton: The same product. How many reviews do you have now approximately on that one? Peter: Maybe 3,000 or something like that. Reviews and ratings. Bradley Sutton: All right, so you're still selling the same stuff that you got into. How did you find that first product? Did you just take some course that a lot of people did and then just use the criteria to find the product and just struck gold in your first one? Or how in the world did you hit a home run with your very first product? Peter: So my friend had done the ASM course and so he suggested I did it as well. He told me the beginnings that I was doing the normal thing everyone was doing Just looking for a product that had an opportunity, that seemed like a good, not too competitive, good price, etc. Etc. And I was just lucky, I picked something that could last well. Bradley Sutton: Now, during this time you said you were back in China or were you in Italy? Peter: No, I was already in Shanghai at that point. Bradley Sutton: Ready in China? Okay, and then. So what marketplace did you launch this product on? Usa or Europe? Peter: Yeah, so I started in the USA. But I think within the first year I knew I wanted to be in Europe. So I immediately started in the European marketplace. I applied for VAT and everything. So yeah, pretty soon after the US Europe, I was into Europe. Bradley Sutton: Now? Was it any more easy than another person because you had lived in Italy before, or that meant nothing? Were you an American citizen, since you were born in America? Peter: Technically I have dual citizenship, but I always traveled on Australian passport. But, answering your question. So when I started Europe, I wanted to try the UK and Italy first before going into all the other countries. So, yes, there would have been a small advantage, starting with the Italian market, because I didn't have to worry too much about translations and more understanding what things were going. So small advantage, I would say, but not huge advantage. Bradley Sutton: Okay, All right Now. In the first couple of years of selling on Amazon, what was your peak of sales for like a year? Gross sales. Peter: I think it was about the second or the third year I reached seven figures. So I was going at seven figures for a while, but in the last two years I decided to focus more on profitability than revenue. So it's now in six figures, but making more profit overall. Now at what? Bradley Sutton: point did, like you said, it become your full-time job. At what level did you have to get to for it, to replace your engineering jobs that you've been doing for most of your adult? Peter: life. Yeah, I was able to replace it. I think it was maybe three or four years into the business, maybe four years. Bradley Sutton: You say you sell in multiple marketplaces. Do you aim for the same profit across the board, or is there a marketplace that's giving you better profit over another? Peter: For sure, Europe is way more profitable than the US, for products Is it? The shipping? Is it the? Bradley Sutton: PPC or what's you know, you're able to charge a higher price. What's the difference? Peter: It's the sellers in Europe. There's less of them, in my category at least, and the sellers are less sophisticated so they're not as good at branding PPC and just the basic stuff. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right, let's go back to Franco then. So when you started on, amazon sounds like you started doing different things, but was there a point where you were only doing the medical devices, as you said, or did you start with only medical devices and that's all you've been doing this whole time? Franco: When I started in 2014,. We started with electronic, with accessories for smartphones, but I mean, we were making money with other stuff, so we were, we didn't really take it care of a lot about that and we were a little bit inexperienced. So we also did a couple of mistakes, like in the quality of the products. So we just like got a lot of bad reviews and we say, okay, we are making other stuff, we don't care about this, and we just kept the account open but we didn't use it. When, in 2020, we started doing medical devices, we went big almost immediately on Amazon. But before that, as I said, we were doing pretty well, like six or seven months before, on our e-commerce. That was the same e-commerce that was selling the electronics. That was like that website that we changed it and were you? Bradley Sutton: and were you only selling in Amazon Europe? Franco: Yes, because I'm proud to do not have the certification for selling in the US. They are very highly restricted and certified, so the regulatory stuff in US is completely different. Bradley Sutton: Now, what's been your peak year of gross sales? Approximately how much? 10 million, 10 million only in Europe in one year in medical devices. Yes, wow, is it safe to say that now Amazon is the main, as opposed to your? Franco: website. Are you still even? Bradley Sutton: doing anything on the websites or just all Amazon. Franco: We still have it. But I think it's very important because one of the reasons why we were successful on Amazon is because we know so well our customer. We know so well what they want from the product and when we launch a product we can tell to our customer. There is also this new product. You can also find this in Amazon, so it gives a lot of help. But because of the growth that we had on Amazon, we have a little bit of neglected our website. So as soon as we have more banned, we should keep making the website better and grow the website as well. Bradley Sutton: Now, as Peter was saying, europe is very profitable for him, partly in fact due to low competition. I would imagine being in the medical device field makes it even less competition. Would that be a fair assessment that it's very few competitors you have, or has it gotten a little bit more tough to? Franco: So I would say there are not so many, but the ones that are there are very aggressive, okay. Bradley Sutton: Aggressive as in they might do some black hat strategies and things like that, or what do you mean by aggressive? Franco: Yes, also Because on medical, it's very like you can get suspended for any kind of claim. So yeah, it's quite an aggressive field. Bradley Sutton: What's the craziest thing that has happened to you. I would assume that you've maybe had your account shut down or at least products suspended or what's been some crazy experiences you've had. Franco: The craziest things that happened to me was a competitor that wanted to get rid of all the big seller of the same product, so it creates some fake test report. It passed those tests to the media and from media they went on national TV and that was insane At the same time. Hold on, hold on. Bradley Sutton: So he made some fake report about like that your product is like unsafe, or something gave it to like a TV station and it got in TV. Franco: The first thing to give it to the media, to a newspaper To a newspaper and it made the biggest newspaper. From the newspaper, bump it to the national TV. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, and then and then. So what was the result? Like, did Amazon see that and then shut you down, or did you start getting bad reviews, or what? Franco: happened At the same. We were waiting experience on all the way to do stuff properly on Amazon. I mean, we didn't even have the brand registry at that time, so they were also able to hijack. At the same time, they hijacked our product and they left all our picture, the branding of our product, but we could not access our listing anymore. It's insane. I know it's insane. Bradley Sutton: Wow. Franco: Up to now I haven't heard of anyone that has an attack like that. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, it's intense. Franco: Yeah, and after like so the listing was destroyed because one month to get back the ownership of the listing and when it happened it was not possible to. I mean, it was like flu. That was probably more than a thousand of bad reviews, one thousand of, like one star reviews. Bradley Sutton: Now did the newspapers and media and stuff? Did they ever submit like retraction or correction? Franco: Oh well, yes, the newspaper, they we submitted like a press release, the newspaper, the newspaper added our press release to our today news. But customers don't really care. I mean, amazon business is a quick business, it's very quick. So we went, we look into that with, probably I think that the best lawyer we could find we usually have very good lawyers and there was no other way to have it fixed as soon as we wanted or to have like an economical compensation because of the way it was structured. Okay, the attack. Bradley Sutton: All right Now, peter, you know like it's safe to say that you've never had that level of attack, or you know? Peter: I don't think anybody has had that level of attack. So but I'm sure you have had my things on national television. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, I'm sure you've had some crazy things happen. Anything like anything that's happened to you. That would you say. You would call it. You know, your, your, your your kind of like worse experience on Amazon or craziest experience. Peter: I haven't had anything really horrible. I've had a lot of the standard like minor attacks from competitors, but probably the scariest one I had was Just I think it was three weeks before Christmas a big competitor in our space did an IP complaint against me and had my products suspended, but luckily I was able to get it back within a week. That could have easily dragged on for months, but I was very lucky. I got it back in a week. That was obviously very scary. How did you get it back? Just submitted appeals I used. I have a lawyer which I use all the time and even they said that's way faster than we normally see. You were really lucky. So I was just super lucky. Bradley Sutton: Okay, now you know let's not just scare everybody with all these bad stories. Peter, you know, sticking with you what's the best thing that's happened You're the craziest in a good way or biggest surprise, or biggest win you've had over the years on Amazon. Peter: I think the first one, which was really a happy experience for me. I've heard other guests on your podcast. I think they're similar. I had a product, one of my standard products, and in the UK suddenly I was having 10 times sales that I normally have. So and this was quite early on, so I still didn't know about being attacked, so I wasn't worried like I would be now, and in those days you could still write to the customers quite easily. So I was writing to a few of them and I got a response back that a celebrity. I've seen the products used by a celebrity on their you know, on their social media. So yeah, that was fantastic and yeah, I knew that celebrity. So it was pretty cool. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. Now you know you've sold in multiple marketplaces, but you know you're probably an expert, I would say on the Italian one. Is what you do on Amazon Italy, 100% the same strategy across the board? Like, I mean, obviously the language is different, but is your PPC strategy the same? Is your branding strategy the same? Is your keyword research strategy the same, or is there something different that you're doing in Italy? You know due to your experience there. Peter: No, I would say everything's particularly the same. As I mentioned before, it was a small advantage, and even now it's practically no advantage with the translation software that's available. So I'm just doing the same thing in all the marketplaces. Bradley Sutton: That's good to know, because you know some sellers out there. You know they start in a marketplace, whether it's Italy, whether it's Germany, whether it's USA, and they're like kind of scared sometimes to branch out because they're like oh man, I'm gonna have to learn a whole bunch of new strategies to go to this new marketplace. But no, it's across the board. I mean sure. You know every now, and you know there's VAT, you know, and then in Japan you might have to do a little something different. You know, but for the most part the strategy is the same. Now, what's going on these days with you know? You mentioned you sell in UK and Italy. What changed after the Brexit? Like, now do you have to send inventory to UK and then send inventory to Italy separately, and it's completely separated and segregated, or what was the difference after Brexit? Peter: Yeah, so you've probably heard of Pan-European and probably you'll. Listeners who have some experience know about Pan-European. Maybe I can explain that really quickly. Go ahead, please. It's like the US when you send a shipment to, it goes to one location and then Amazon will spread it out all over the US, right? Bradley Sutton: Yeah, we call that. North American remote fulfillment is what it's called over here. Peter: Right, so they have the same thing in Europe. If you're VAT, you registered in their core countries, which was UK, Germany, France, Italy, Spain I think that's all of them. It was the same thing. You'd send it to one country and then they would spread it out amongst all the countries as if it was one country. So that was very convenient. When Brexit happened, the UK became its own separate country, so all the work that you do logistically, which you used to do for Europe, then you had to repeat it for the UK. So it's a bit of a hassle, time-wise. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Now, switching back to Franco, you had the worst thing that somebody could possibly imagine happening. Now the same question that I gave Peter what was the best thing that's happening? I mean, other than the fact that you're not even selling the USA and you can still gross 10 million a year? I mean that by itself is pretty amazing, but what else other than that is a cool thing. That's happened to kind of like pump up people's spirits after feeling so sorry for you. Franco: Yeah, well, I think that if I put on my hand the bad thing and the other thing, the good things, the good thing outweigh the bad thing. And the best one was the velocity to which we could reach the number one in health and personal care category with our products like in three weeks. Bradley Sutton: So number one, as in BSR, one in the whole health category. Franco: Yes, yes, Wow, that's pretty impressive. Yeah, that was between 2020 and 2021,. We reached that position in like three weeks with our product. Bradley Sutton: that's why we got a time Three weeks from the time you launched yes, Wow, okay, well, okay, well, then tell me, I gotta pause you there. Then how in the world did that happen? Like, did you have some crazy campaign? Was it all organic? Franco: How would you go from zero to number one so fast? No, they were proud of the COVID. Bradley Sutton: Ah, okay, okay, that's the reason. Now, did you was this after COVID you started? Or did you just get lucky, like it was something you were starting and you had no idea COVID was happening and the timing was just right? Or how in the world did you manage that? Franco: Well, we have been manufacturing in China since, I told you, since 2003,. We have a very strong presence in China, and so when COVID hit in China in January 2020, I knew it was coming to Italy or to Europe. I was pretty sure. I also wrote article about that, and so when that happened, I was a sort of reference for many people to say, hey, can you help in something? Because you know, italy was the first country in the Western world to be hit very hard, and so we started doing those like masks, those kind of product for COVID, and at the beginning, we were just doing that for hospitals, like for what was really needed. Franco: And then after that, we went to doing this on our e-commerce and the reason was that we ran out of money because the request was so insane Because we look into that so deeply that we were 100% legit. Our problem was like, probably the safest you can buy at the right price. We didn't want to speculate. We really want to have the country, and so we had a good product at the right price and we have an insane amount of demand for all those state-owned stuff, like the police even the finance police was buying from us. And so when we ran out of money. We opened the e-commerce because we need some very short money cycles and you know, on e-commerce you get the money like right away. And so after that, six months later, and also we got a lot of. Our e-commerce was an instant success as well, because we were supplying all the hospitals and so our product with our brand was in every hand, everyone hands and so our e-commerce was an instant success. Franco: And then we asked it like in April 2020, to our product to be listed on Amazon, and Amazon didn't accept it. And you have to consider that at that time on Amazon, it was fluted with product that were not legit, like all the things you were finding on Amazon related to the kind of product was like not compliant. We submitted our product. We were rejected. We said, okay, I don't care, I have other stuff to do. And then in October, I tried to resubmit the product. It was rejected again, okay, but in November, for I don't know what I receive, like Without asking again to to be listed, the I so the listing the listing was there but was not like, not active. The list he became active. Franco: From that point, I think that because we have so much, I'd say, brand recognition, yeah. Trust from the customer. As soon as we told the customer we are on Amazon was like that. I mean, we could have been number one, probably in a week. The only problem was the, the velocity, and that we need to have the product on their warehouse. Yeah, and so it was like giving three days out of stock. One day, then three, because of the space that Amazon was giving us, because when you are number one, you have to send a truck every day, or even more and and so, yeah, that's the story, that's cool. Bradley Sutton: Now, you know, for the last part of this, you know let's just go back and forth with some, some strategies, you know, and I don't mean, oh, you know, keep your a cost down and and and have a nice logo, or you know it's just standard stuff. But you know each of you to be at the position you are, you know which is, you know Amazon is your full-time business and you've reached six, seven, even eight figures. You know you've got to have some, some unique strategies and some, some things that are that you feel are the difference of why you've been so successful. So we'll start, you know, franco, with you. What is something that you know? So you know, it could be a PPC strategy, it could be a launch strategy, could be branding strategy. Uh, what? What's your first strategy of the day? Franco: I think that's still uh, the obsession with the product is a key. So like, uh, having the best product you can have for your customers, and so listening to all the advice and Now you can use AI and do all your research. But, uh, do the extra, the extra mile. Don't only use AI, because AI is very good to finding, um, like patterns, like to put in together Something that is saying a different way, but it's not good to find out liars, and many times in the outliers there are some very good gold nuggets, so talk with as many as you can, even even call them and Understand what are they paying, what are they, what they really want. Franco: When you have the best possible product, then you need to apply all the techniques that amazon Required. Like I have the best possible page. Uh, add those pains and uh, emotion of the customer reflected in your stack image At the best possible main image ever. Like, do a lot of testing, an insane amount of testing, until you know you will be the number one choice and never Let the customer down. Whatever they have a problem, solve it, solve it. Solve it, because then you have To, you have to reach the position, then you have to stick to in the position. Yeah, it's an ever-ending story. Bradley Sutton: All right, switching back to peter. Uh, what's your um first strategy you'd like to share? Peter: Uh, I'd give a general one and then maybe an amazon specific one. Very general. Uh, I think there's a lot of listeners on your podcast that are maybe just starting out, so I would suggest just to keep things simple. I've seen some people they they try and go to advanced from the beginning and it's uh, they get in over their head. They don't understand what's happening. So I would just keep it simple, even though I've been doing it for a long time. I I also Follow the same principle. I don't have any, I don't have any full-time staff. I I just try and keep things as simple as possible. And then, specifically for amazon, as I mentioned before, I think if you're, especially if you're getting started, you really need to think about products or a product that you can brand. And if you, if you can't brand a product for example, if you're doing I don't know stationary or Cleaning accessories or something, it's very difficult to build a brand around that, to build User excitement. So that's something you probably need to consider as well. Bradley Sutton: Okay, Going back to Franco, you know like you can give us another strategy, but before you do that, I wanted to kind of like double down on what you were talking about. You know you were saying hey, you know, have the best listening, have the best images and and do a lot of testing. How are you doing this testing and how are you making sure that? You have you know the best. Franco: Well, I'm using all the Software as a service, as a this are available. So I like take my few four competitors and I test my main image against their, I mean against the main image of my competitors. Then I got all the advice from the pollers, like we choose this because of this, we don't like this because of that. We run AI on that. But we don't only run AI. Franco: I read all the response one by one and I try to see how can make it. I can make it better. And then I write like Something that, what, what need to be done. I pass this to my and I try to be very, very Pacific. Like many times, I take a piece of paper and make driving by myself, like this is how I want this to be, and then I pass to my designer and then the designer make a new Couple of variation and it test again and sometimes I go very deeply on that. Like I am not happy until, like I get that out of five possible choice of main image, my main image gets 60% of the clicks and the other four share the 40%. Bradley Sutton: So it's not just a matter of all right, hey, I won with 30%, another one has 28, another one has 26. That's even though you won. That's a failure to you until you can get to the 60%. Franco: Yeah, I won like 60% and 40% spread between the other four, then I know that I'll stand out, and this is the first step. Then I need to like the page has to be consistent. And then I need to maintain my promise to the customer. Bradley Sutton: Are you selling? You're still with Franco here. Are you selling in all European marketplaces, like including the newer ones like Poland, netherlands, or are you focused only on the bigger ones? Franco: So my sellers, I sell both on one P vendor center and three P seller central and I have all the accounts. I mean all the nine accounts in Europe, but the only one that really matters are the big five UK, Italy, Germany, Spain and France. And for the most of my product I cannot use the Pan European, as Pita does, because there are specific regulations for each. So there is on top there is the EU regulation, but then there are specific regulation on a country level. So, amazon, do not allow us to do the Pan AU. We need to stop the product on each country. Peter: Okay, that's a lot of work and increases your workload to manage your logistics in each country like that. Franco: Yeah. Bradley Sutton: All right, going back to Peter, you have any more strategies for us. But before you get to that, what about you? You mentioned UK and Italy. Are you also selling in all nine marketplaces, or are you only keeping your listings active in the big ones? Peter: Yeah, it was only UK and Italy when I first started in Europe to get an idea of how it worked. Bradley Sutton: And almost immediately. Peter: I think I only did UK and Italy for three months and then straight away I went into the Pan European. Bradley Sutton: So for the last few years. Peter: I've been, yeah, outside of the big five. Bradley Sutton: If you have to pick one of the newer ones, are they all doing equal or is there one that you feel? Hey, down the road, this could become the sixth one, that's a good question. Peter: Now I haven't really focused on any of the new ones. I think whether you're Belgium, sweden, I can't remember, but Poland's Check for public. But from what I've seen they're all very minimal. I haven't really put an effort into them. I wouldn't say there's one that particularly stands out. Bradley Sutton: And then for all of those, are you just using what Amazon does for the auto translation, or did you, did you commission official translation with a service or something? Obviously, you did the Italian one yourself, but what about for these other languages? Peter: Actually, I didn't do the Italian one myself. I used Yana's service, ylt shout out to Yana. But for the other marketplaces, no, I haven't specifically worked on those. I've just left it with Amazon doing their own translations, and then they have a similar system to NAF. So, for like for Canada and Mexico, then for the other countries that we just mentioned, they'll take the product from Germany or France or wherever, and then send it over. It's a similar system. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Any more specific strategies for us that you'd like to? Peter: share. I do a lot on social media. I don't know if you've seen that's been a huge part of improving profitability in the last two years. So the PPC costs were going up incredibly Like for us. It was getting. Tacos was getting up to 30%, maybe even 40% for some products and now, with some strong, a lot of work on the social media side and managed to bring that down to less than 5%, which I think is quite rare in the industry for the TACOS Less than 5% TACOS. Wow, that's very impressive and most of the TACOS is brand defense on the product page. So, yeah, that's been huge for us to make that change. Bradley Sutton: All right. What does the future hold for you, Franco? Like you, just hey, let's just keep going. Or are you looking to exit your business and retire? You looking to start any more brands, or what's your you looking one year down the road, five years down the road? Buying a lower division Italians football team, or like what's gonna, what's gonna. Franco: Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe Now. Well, my dream would be to. I have my figure. My company reached nine figures. That's a very, very difficult endeavor, and at that level. Bradley Sutton: I think you might be ready for Inter Milan or AC Milan. Franco: Forget the lower division, you'll be ready. Bradley Sutton: Let's buy one of those. Franco: What else. And that could be through acquisitions of other brands or through expanding our product range. We have been looking to many, many things, okay what about you, Peter? Bradley Sutton: What's the future hold for you? Peter: Yeah, I'm just happy doing what I'm doing. I don't have any new term plans to sell the business. Enjoy what I do and just gonna keep going. Bradley Sutton: All right, excellent. Now why don't we just go ahead and close this out with a one or two sentence words of farewell in Italiano here. Start with Franco. Say something for the Italian community out there. Franco: The Italian community of the Amazon vendors has to grow to a great potential. Amazon has become one of the most important markets in Europe. So, guys, we're gonna win Amazon. Bradley Sutton: All right, and, peter, where were your Italian words of wisdom? Peter: Italian. If someone in Italy hears this, I'll pass their Shanghai. So they're content with the Vedetti. Bradley Sutton: All right. Peter: I have no idea. Bradley Sutton: This host of the podcast is a crazy guy. Peter: Shoot a sexy host of this podcast is what I said. Bradley Sutton: All right, there we go. That's good, I'll believe that. All right. Well, guys, thank you so much. It was great to have you on. It was great to meet you and hang out in Italy. We found that little nice restaurant that I was not expecting much, but I was really, really delicious food. My whole time in Italy was good food, but I look forward to seeing you at a future conference, whether it be in Asia, north America or Europe. So thanks for coming on. Peter: Thank you. Franco: Thank you.

We are thrilled to announce the third session of our new Incubator Program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply to our eight-week program. We'll help you validate your market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence toward an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. We look forward to seeing your application in our inbox! Peter Voss is the CEO and Chief Scientist of Aigo.ai, a groundbreaking alternative to conventional chatbots and generative models like ChatGPT. Aigo's chatbot is powered by Artificial General Intelligence (AGI), enabling it to think, learn, and reason much like a human being. It boasts short-term and long-term memory, setting it apart in terms of personalized service and context-awareness. Along with host Chad Pytel, Peter talks about how most chatbots and AI systems today are basic. They can answer questions but can't understand or remember the context. Aigo.ai is different because it's built to think and learn more like humans. It can adapt and get better the more you use it. He also highlights the challenges Aigo.ai faces in securing venture capital, given that its innovative approach doesn't align with current investment models heavily focused on generative or deep learning AI. Peter and Chad agree that while generative AI serves certain functions well, the quest for a system that can think, learn, and reason like a human demands a fundamentally different approach. Aigo.ai (https://aigo.ai/) Follow Aigo.ai on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/aigo-ai/) or YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl3XKNOL5rEit0txjVA07Ew). Follow Peter Voss on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vosspeter/). Visit his website: optimal.org/voss.html (http://optimal.org/voss.html) Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Peter Voss, CEO and Chief Scientist at Aigo.ai. Peter, thanks so much for joining me. PETER: Yes, thank you. CHAD: So, tell us a little bit about what Aigo.ai does. You've been working in AI for a long time. And it seems like Aigo is sort of the current culmination of a lot of your 15 years of work, so... PETER: Yes, exactly. So, the quick way to describe our current product is a chatbot with a brain, and the important part is the brain. That basically, for the last 15-plus years, I've been working on the core technology for what's called AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, a system that can think, learn, reason similar to the way humans do. Now, we're not yet at human level with this technology. But it's a lot smarter and a lot more usable than traditional chatbots that don't have a brain. CHAD: I want to dig into this idea a little bit. I think, like a lot of people, I've used just traditional chatbots, particularly like ChatGPT is the latest. I've built some things on top of it. What is the brain that makes it different? Especially if you've used one, what is using Aigo going to be different? PETER: Right. I can give a concrete example of one of our customers then I can talk about the technology. So, one of our big customers is the 1-800-Flowers group of companies, which is Harry & David Popcorn Factory and several others. And wanted to provide a hyper-personalized concierge service for their customers where, you know, the system learns who you buy gifts for, for what occasions, you know, what your relationship is to them, and to basically remember who you are and what you want for each of their 20 million customers. And they tried different technologies out there, you know, all the top brands and so on, and they just couldn't get it off the ground. And the reason is because they really don't learn. And we now have 89% self-service on the things that we've implemented, which is pretty much unheard of for complex conversations. So, why can we do that? The reason is that our system has deep understanding. So, we have deep pausing, deep understanding, but more importantly, that the system remembers. It has short-term memory. It has long-term memory. And it uses that as context. So, you know, when you call back a second time, it'll remember what your previous call was, you know, what your preferences are, and so on. And it can basically use that information, the short and long-term memory, and reason about it. And that is really a step forward. Now, until ChatGPT, which is really very different technology from chatbot technology, I mean, chatbot technology, you're assuming...the kind of thing we're talking about is really augmenting call center, you know, automatic call center calls. There, you need deep integration into the customers' back-end system. You obviously need to know what the latest product availability is, what the customers' outstanding orders are, you know, all sorts of things like, you know, delivery schedules. And we probably have, like, two dozen APIs that connect our system to their various corporate databases and so on. Now, traditional chatbots obviously can do that. You hook up the APIs and do things, and it's, you know, it's a lot of work. But traditional chatbot technology really hasn't really changed much in 30 years. You basically have a categorizer; how can I help you? Basically, try to...what is the intent, intent categorizer? And then once your intent has been identified, you basically have a flowchart-type program that, you know, forces you down a flowchart. And that's what makes them so horrible because it doesn't use context. It doesn't have short-term memory. CHAD: And I just wanted to clarify the product and where you mentioned call center. So, this isn't just...or only text-based chat. This is voice. PETER: Yes. We started off with chat, and we now also have voice, so omnichannel. And the beauty of the system having the brain as well is you can jump from text messaging to a chat on the website to Apple ABC to voice, you know. So, you can basically move from one channel to another seamlessly. You know, so that's against traditional chatbot technology, which is really what everybody is still using. Now, ChatGPT, of course, the fact that it's called ChatGPT sort of makes it a bit confusing. And, I mean, it's phenomenal. The technology is absolutely phenomenal in terms of what it can do, you know, write poems and give you ideas. And the amount of information it's amazing. However, it's really not suited for commercial-grade applications because it hallucinates and it doesn't have memory. CHAD: You can give it some context, but it's basically faking it. You're providing it information every time you start to use it. PETER: Correct. The next time you connect, that memory is gone, you know [crosstalk 05:58] CHAD: Unless you build an application that saves it and then feeds it in again. PETER: Right. Then you basically run out of context we know very quickly. In fact, I just published a white paper about how we can get to human-level AI. And one of the things we did and go over in the paper is we did a benchmark our technology where we fed the system about 300 or 400 facts, simple facts. You know, it might be my sister likes chocolate or, you know, it could be other things like I don't park my car in the garage or [chuckles], you know. It could be just simple facts, a few hundred of those. And then we asked questions about that. Now, ChatGPT scored less than 1% on that because, you know, with an 8K window, it basically just couldn't remember any of this stuff. So, we use -- CHAD: It also doesn't, in my experience...it's basically answering the way it thinks the answer should sound or look. And so, it doesn't actually understand the facts that you give it. PETER: Exactly. CHAD: And so, if you feed it a bunch of things which are similar, it gets really confused because it doesn't actually understand the things. It might answer correctly, but it will, in my experience, just as likely answer incorrectly. PETER: Yeah. So, it's extremely powerful technology for helping search as well if a company has all the documents and they...but the human always has to be in the loop. It just makes way too many mistakes. But it's very useful if it gives you information 8 out of 10 times and saves you a lot of time. And it's relatively easy to detect the other two times where it gives you wrong information. Now, I know in programming, sometimes, it's given me wrong information and ended up taking longer to debug the misinformation it gave me than it would have taken me. But overall, it's still a very, very powerful tool. But it really isn't suitable for, you know, serious chatbot applications that are integrated into back-end system because these need to be signed off by...legal department needs to be happy that it's not going to get the company into trouble. Marketing department needs to sign off on it and customer experience, you know. And a generative system like that, you really can't rely on what it's going to say, and that's apart from security concerns and, you know, the lack of memory and deep understanding. CHAD: Yeah. So, you mentioned generative AI, which is sort of one of the underlying pieces of ChatGPT. In your solutions, are you using any generative solutions? PETER: No, not at all. Well, I can give one example. You know, what 1-800-Flowers do is they have an option to write a poem for your mother's birthday or Mother's Day or something like it. And for that, we will use ChatGPT, or they use ChatGPT for that because that's what it's good at. But, you know, that's really just any other app that you might call up to do something for you, you know, like calling up FedEx to find out where your goods are. Apart from that, our technology...it's a good question you ask because, you know, statistical systems and generative AI now have really dominated the AI scene for the last about 12 years, really sort of since DeepMind started. Because it's been incredibly successful to take masses amounts of data and masses amounts of computing power and, you know, number crunch them and then be able to categorize and identify images and, you know, do all sorts of magical things. But, the approach we use is cognitive AI as opposed to generative. It's a relatively unknown approach, but that's what we've been working on for 15 years. And it starts with the question of what does intelligence require to build a system so that it doesn't use masses amounts of data? It's not the quantity of data that counts. It's the quality of data. And it's important that it can learn incrementally as you go along like humans do and that it can validate what it learns. It can reason about, you know, new information. Does this make sense? Do I need to ask a follow-up question? You know, that kind of thing. So, it's cognitive AI. That's the approach we're using. CHAD: And, obviously, you have a product, and you've productized it. But you said, you know, we've been working on this, or you've been working on this model for a long time. How has it progressed? PETER: Yes, we are now on, depending on how you count, but on the third major version of it that we've started. And really, the progress has been determined by resources really than any technology. You know, it's not that we sort of have a big R&D requirement. It's really more development. But we are a relatively small company. And because we're using such different technology, it's actually been pretty hard to raise VC money. You know, they look at it and, you know, ask you, "What's your training data? How big is your model?" You know, and that kind of thing. CHAD: Oh, so the questions investors or people know to ask aren't relevant. PETER: Correct. And, you know, they bring in the AI experts, and then they say, "Well, what kind of deep learning, machine learning, or generative, or what transformer model are using?" And we say, "Well, we don't." And typically, that's kind of, "Oh okay, well, then it can't possibly work, you know, we don't understand it." So, we just recently launched. You know, with all the excitement of generative AI now recently, with so much money flowing into it, we actually launched a major development effort. Now we want to hire an additional a hundred people to basically crank up the IQ. So, over the years, you know, we're working on two aspects of it: one is to continually crank up the IQ of the system, that it can understand more and more complex situations; it can reason better and be able to handle bigger amounts of data. So, that's sort of the technical part that we've been working on. But then the other side, of course, running a business, a lot of our effort over the last 15 years has gone into making it industrial strength, you know, security, scalability, robustness of the system. Our current technology, our first version, was actually a SaaS model that we deployed behind a customer's firewall. CHAD: Yeah, I noticed that you're targeting more enterprise deployments. PETER: Yeah, that's at the moment because, financially, it makes more sense for us to kind of get off the ground to work with, you know, larger companies where we supply the technology, and it's deployed usually in the cloud but in their own cloud behind their firewall. So, they're very happy with that. You know, they have complete control over their data and reliability, and so on. But we provide the technology and then just licensing it. CHAD: Now, a lot of people are familiar with generative AI, you know, it runs on GPUs and that kind of thing. Does the hardware profile for where you're hosting it look the same as that, or is it different? PETER: No, no, no, it requires much less horsepower. So, I mean, we can run an agent on a five-year-old laptop, you know, and it doesn't...instead of it costing $100 million to train the model, it's like pennies [laughter] to train the model. I mean, we train it during our regression testing, and that we train it several times a day. Mid-Roll Ad: When starting a new project, we understand that you want to make the right choices in technology, features, and investment but that you don't have all year to do extended research. In just a few weeks, thoughtbot's Discovery Sprints deliver a user-centered product journey, a clickable prototype or Proof of Concept, and key market insights from focused user research. We'll help you to identify the primary user flow, decide which framework should be used to bring it to life, and set a firm estimate on future development efforts. Maximize impact and minimize risk with a validated roadmap for your new product. Get started at: tbot.io/sprint. CHAD: So, you mentioned ramping up the IQ is a goal of yours. With a cognitive model, does that mean just teaching it more things? What does it entail? PETER: Yes, there's a little bit of tension between commercial requirements and what you ultimately want for intelligence because a truly intelligent system, you want it to be very autonomous and adaptive and have a wide range of knowledge. Now, for current commercial applications we're doing, you actually don't want the system to learn things by itself or to make up stuff, you know, you want it to be predictable. So, they develop and to ultimately get to full human-level or AGI capability requires a system to be more adaptive–be able to learn things more. So, the one big change we are making to the system right now is natural language understanding or English understanding. And our current commercial version was actually developed through our—we call them AI psychologists, our linguists, and cognitive psychologists—by basically teaching it the rules of English grammar. And we've always known that that's suboptimal. So, with the current version, we are now actually teaching it English from the ground up the way a child might learn a language, so the language itself. So, it can learn any language. So, for commercial applications, that wasn't really a need. But to ultimately get to human level, it needs to be more adaptive, more autonomous, and have a wider range of knowledge than the commercial version. That's basically where our focus is. And, you know, we know what needs to be done, but, you know, it's quite a bit of work. That's why we need to hire about 100 people to deal with all of the different training things. It's largely training the system, you know, but there are also some architectural improvements we need to make on performance and the way the system reasons. CHAD: Well, you used the term Artificial General Intelligence. I understand you're one of the people who coined that term [chuckles] or the person. PETER: Yes. In 2002, I got together with two other people who felt that the time was ripe to get back to the original dream of AI, you know, from 60 years ago, to build thinking machines basically. So, we decided to write a book on the topic to put our ideas out there. And we were looking for a title for the book, and three of us—myself, Ben Goertzel, and Shane Legg, who's actually one of the founders of DeepMind; he was working for me at the time. And we were brainstorming it, and that's what we came up with was AGI, Artificial General Intelligence. CHAD: So, for people who aren't familiar, it's what you were sort of alluding to. You're basically trying to replicate the human brain, the way humans learn, right? That's the basic idea is -- PETER: Yeah, the human cognition really, yeah, human mind, human cognition. That's exactly right. I mean, we want an AI that can think, learn, and reason the way humans do, you know, that it can hit the box and learn a new topic, you know, you can have any kind of conversation. And we really believe we have the technology to do that. We've built quite a number of different prototypes that already show this kind of capability where it can, you know, read Wikipedia, integrate that with existing knowledge, and then have a conversation about it. And if it's not sure about something, it'll ask for clarification and things like that. We really just need to scale it up. And, of course, it's a huge deal for us to eventually get to human-level AI. CHAD: Yeah. How much sort of studying of the brain or cognition do you do in your work, where, you know, sort of going back and saying, "Okay, we want to tackle this thing"? Do you do research into cognition? PETER: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. It really gets to the heart of why I think we haven't made more progress in developing AGI. In fact, another white paper I published recently is "Why Don't We Have AGI Yet?" And, you know, one of the big problems is that statistical AI has been so incredibly successful over the last decade or so that it sucked all of the oxygen out of the air. But to your question, before I started on this project, I actually took off five years to study intelligence because, to me, that's really what cognitive AI approach is all about is you start off by saying, what is intelligence? What does it require? And I studied it from the perspective of philosophy, epistemology, theory of knowledge. You know, what's reality? How do we know anything? CHAD: [laughs] PETER: How can we be sure? You know, really those most fundamental questions. Then how do children learn? What do IQ tests measure? How does our intelligence differ to animal intelligence? What is that magic difference between, you know, evolution? Suddenly, we have this high-level cognition. And the short answer of that is being able to form abstract concepts or concept formation is sort of key, and to have metacognition, to be able to think about your own thinking. So, those are kind of the things I discovered during the five years of study. Obviously, I also looked at what had already been done in the field of AI, as in good old-fashioned AI, and neural networks, and so on. So, this is what brought me together. So, absolutely, as a starting point to say, what is intelligence? Or what are the aspects of intelligence that are really important and core? Now, as far as studying the brain is concerned, I certainly looked at that, but I pretty quickly decided that that wasn't that relevant. It's, you know, you certainly get some ideas. I mean, neural networks, ours is kind of a neural network or knowledge graph, so there's some similarity with that. But the analogy one often gives, which I think is not bad, is, you know, we've had flying machines for 100 years. We are still nowhere near reverse engineering a bird. CHAD: Right. PETER: So, you know, evolution and biology are just very different from designing things and using the materials that we need to use in computers. So, definitely, understanding intelligence, I think, is key to being able to build it. CHAD: Well, in some ways, that is part of the reason why statistical AI has gotten so much attention with that sort of airplane analogy because it's like, maybe we need to not try to replicate human cognition [chuckles]. Maybe we need to just embrace what computers are good at and try to find a different way. PETER: Right, right. But that argument really falls down when you say you are ignoring intelligence, you know, or you're ignoring the kind of intelligence. And we can see how ridiculous the sort of the current...well, I mean, first of all, let me say Sam Altman, and everybody says...well, they say two things: one, we have no idea how these things work, which is not a good thing if you're [chuckles] trying to build something and improve it. And the second thing they say...Demis Hassabis and, you know, everybody says it, "This is not going to get us to human-level AI, to human-level intelligence." They realize that this is the wrong approach. But they also haven't come up with what the right approach is because they are stuck within the statistical big data approach, you know, we need another 100 billion dollars to build even bigger computers with bigger models, you know, but that's really -- CHAD: Right. It might be creating a tool, which has some uses, but it is not actual; I mean, it's not really even actual artificial intelligence -- PETER: Correct. And, I mean, you can sort of see this very easily if...imagine you hired a personal assistant for yourself, a human. And, you know, they come to you, and they know how to use Excel and do QuickBooks or whatever, and a lot of things, so great. They start working with you. But, you know, every now and again, they say something that's completely wrong with full confidence, so that's a problem. Then the second thing is you tell them, "Well, we've just introduced a new product. We shut down this branch here. And, you know, I've got a new partner in the business and a new board member." And the next day, they come in, and they remember nothing of that, you know, [chuckles] that's not very intelligent. CHAD: Right. No, no, it's not. It's possible that there's a way for these two things to use each other, like generating intelligent-sounding, understanding what someone is saying and finding like things to it, and being able to generate meaningful, intelligent language might be useful in a cognitive model. PETER: We obviously thought long and hard about this, especially when, you know, generative AI became so powerful. I mean, it does some amazing things. So, can we combine the technology? And the answer is quite simply no. As I mentioned earlier, we can use generative AI kind of as an API or as a tool or something. You know, so if our system needs to write a poem or something, then yes, you know, these systems can do a good job of it. But the reason you can't really just combine them and kind of build a Frankensteinian kind of [laughs] thing is you really need to have context that you currently have fully integrated. So you can't have two brains, you know, the one brain, which is a read-only brain, and then our brain, our cognitive brain, which basically constantly adapts and uses the context of what it's heard using short-term memory, long-term memory, reasoning, and so on. So, all of those mental mechanisms of deep understanding of context, short-term and long-term memory, reasoning, language generation–they all have to be tightly integrated and work together. And that's basically the approach that we have. Now, like a human to...if you write, you know, "Generate an essay," and you want to have it come up with maybe some ideas, changing the style, for example, you know, it would make sense for our system to use a generative AI system like a tool because humans are good tool users. You know, I wouldn't expect our system to be the world chess champion or Go champion. It can use a chess-playing AI or a Go-playing AI to do that job. CHAD: That's really cool. You mentioned the short-term, long-term memory. If I am using or working on a deployment for Aigo, is that something that I specify, like, oh, this thing where we've collected goes in short term versus long term, or does the system actually do that automatically? PETER: That's the beauty of the system that: it automatically has short and long-term memory. So, really, the only thing that needs to be sort of externally specified is things you don't want to keep in long-term memory, you know, that for some reason, security reasons, or a company gives you a password or whatever. So, then, they need to be tagged. So, we have, like, an ontology that describes all of the different kinds of knowledge that you have. And in the ontology, you can tag certain branches of the ontology or certain nodes in the ontology to say, this should not be remembered, or this should be encrypted or, you know, whatever. But by default, everything that comes into short-term memory is remembered. So, you know, a computer can have photographic memory. CHAD: You know, that is part of why...someone critical of what they've heard might say, "Well, you're just replicating a human brain. How is this going to be better?" And I think that that's where you're just...what you said, like, when we do artificial general intelligence with computers, they all have photographic memory. PETER: Right. Well, in my presentations, when I give talks on this, I have the one slide that actually talks about how AI is superior to humans in as far as getting work done in cognition, and there's actually quite a number of things. So, let me first kind of give one example here. So, imagine you train up one AI to be a PhD-level cancer researcher, you know, it goes through whatever training, and reading, and coaching, and so on. So, you now have this PhD-level cancer researcher. You now make a million copies of that, and you have a million PhD-level cancer researchers chipping away at the problem. Now, I'm sure we would make a lot more progress, and you can now replicate that idea, that same thinking, you know, in energy, pollution, poverty, whatever, I mean, any disease, that kind of approach. So, I mean, that already is one major difference that you make copies of an AI, which you can't of humans. But there are other things. First of all, they are significantly less expensive than humans. Humans are very expensive. So much lower cost. They work 24/7 without breaks, without getting tired. I don't know the best human on how many hours they can concentrate without needing a break, maybe a few hours a day, or six, maybe four hours a day. So, 24/7. Then, they can communicate with each other much better than humans do because they could share information sort of by transferring blocks of data across from one to the other without the ego getting in the way. I mean, you take humans, not very good at sharing information and discoveries. Then they don't have certain distractions that we have like romantic things and kids in schools and, you know. CHAD: Although if you actually do get a full [laughs] AGI, then it might start to have those things [laughs]. PETER: Well, yeah, that's a whole nother topic. But our AIs, we basically build them not to want to have children [laughs] so, you know. And then, of course, things we spoke about, photographic memory. It has instantaneous access to all the information in the world, all the databases, you know, much better than we have, like, if we had a direct connection to the internet and brain, you know, but at a much higher bandwidth than we could ever achieve with our wetware. And then, lastly, they are much better at reasoning than humans are. I mean, our ability to reason is what I call an evolutionary afterthought. We are not actually that good at logical thinking, and AIs can be, you know. CHAD: We like to think we are, though. PETER: [chuckles] Well, you know, compared to animals, yes, definitely. We are significantly better. But realistically, humans are not that good at rational, logical thinking. CHAD: You know, I read something that a lot of decisions are made at a different level than the logical part. And then, the logical part justifies the decision. PETER: Yeah, absolutely. And, in fact, this is why smart people are actually worse at that because they're really good at rationalizations. You know, they can rationalize their weird beliefs and/or their weird behavior or something. That's true. CHAD: You mentioned that your primary customers are enterprises. Who makes up your ideal customer? And if someone was listening who matched that profile and wanted to get in touch with you, what would they look like? PETER: The simplest and most obvious way is if they have call centers of 100 people or more—hundreds, or thousands, tens of thousands even. But the economics from about 100 people in the call center, where we might be able to save them 50% of that, you know, depending on the kind of business. CHAD: And are your solutions typically employed before the actual people, and then they fall back to people in certain circumstances? PETER: Correct. That's exactly right. And, you know, the advantage there is, whatever Aigo already gathers, we then summarize it and pop that to the human operator so that, you know, that the customer -- CHAD: That's great because that's super annoying. PETER: It is. CHAD: [laughs] PETER: It is super annoying and -- CHAD: When you finally get to a person, and it's like, I just spent five minutes providing all this information that you apparently don't have. PETER: Right. Yeah, no, absolutely, that's kind of one of the key things that the AI has that information. It can summarize it and provide it to the live operator. So that would be, you know, the sort of the most obvious use case. But we also have use cases on the go with student assistant, for example, where it's sort of more on an individual basis. You know, imagine your kid just starts at university. It's just overwhelming. It can have a personal personal assistant, you know, that knows all about you in particular. But then also knows about the university, knows its way around, where you get your books, your meals, and, you know, different societies and curriculum and so on. Or diabetes coach, you know, where it can help people with diabetes manage their meals and activities, where it can learn whether you love broccoli, or you're vegetarian, or whatever, and help guide you through that. Internal help desks are another application, of course. CHAD: Yeah. I was going to say even the same thing as at a university when people join a big company, you know, there's an onboarding process. PETER: Exactly. Yeah. CHAD: And there could be things that you're not aware of or don't know where to find. PETER: Internal HR and IT, absolutely, as you say, on onboarding. Those are other applications where our technology is well-suited. And one other category is what we call a co-pilot. So, think of it as Clippy on steroids, you know, where basically you have complex software like, you know, SAP, or Salesforce, or something like that. And you can basically just have Aigo as a front end to it, and you can just talk to it. And it will know where to navigate, what to get, and basically do things, complex things in the software. And software vendors like that idea because people utilize more features of the software than they would otherwise, you know. It can accelerate your learning curve and make it much easier to use the product. So, you know, really, the technology that we have is industry and application-agnostic to a large extent. We're just currently not yet at human level. CHAD: Right. I hope you get there eventually. It'll be certainly exciting when you do. PETER: Yes. Well, we do expect to get there. We just, you know, as I said, we've just launched a project now to raise the additional money we need to hire the people that we need. And we actually believe we are only a few years away from full human-level intelligence or AGI. CHAD: Wow, that's exciting. So, if the solution that you currently have and people want to go along for the journey with you, how can they get in touch with Aigo? PETER: They could contact me directly: peter@aigo.ai. I'm also active on Twitter, LinkedIn. CHAD: Cool. We'll include all of those links in the show notes, which people can find at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions for me, email me at hosts@giantrobots.fm. Find me on Mastodon @cpytel@thoughtbot.social. You can find a complete transcript for this episode as well at giantrobots.fm. Peter, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it and all of the wisdom that you've shared with us today. PETER: Well, thank you. They were good questions. Thank you. CHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Peter Voss.

Scripture Reading: John 21:9-25 9 When they got out on the beach, they saw a charcoal fire ready with a fish placed on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said, “Bring some of the fish you have just now caught.” 11 So Simon Peter went aboard and pulled the net to shore. It was full of large fish, 153, but although there were so many, the net was not torn. 12 “Come, have breakfast,” Jesus said. But none of the disciples dared to ask him, “Who are you?” because they knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14 This was now the third time Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.15 Then when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these do?” He replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love you.” Jesus told him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 Jesus said a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He replied, “Yes, Lord, you know I love you.” Jesus told him, “Shepherd my sheep.” 17 Jesus said a third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that Jesus asked him a third time, “Do you love me?” and said, “Lord, you know everything. You know that I love you.” Jesus replied, “Feed my sheep. 18 I tell you the solemn truth, when you were young, you tied your clothes around you and went wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and others will tie you up and bring you where you do not want to go.” 19 (Now Jesus said this to indicate clearly by what kind of death Peter was going to glorify God.) After he said this, Jesus told Peter, “Follow me.”20 Peter turned around and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them. (This was the disciple who had leaned back against Jesus' chest at the meal and asked, “Lord, who is the one who is going to betray you?”) 21 So when Peter saw him, he asked Jesus, “Lord, what about him?” 22 Jesus replied, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours? You follow me!” 23 So the saying circulated among the brothers and sisters that this disciple was not going to die. But Jesus did not say to him that he was not going to die, but rather, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours?”24 This is the disciple who testifies about these things and has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true. 25 There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.Main ThemesJesus at the ShoreJesus Already Has Fire, Fish, and BreadWhen Peter finally arrives to meet Jesus, Jesus has a fire ready, fish is cooking, and there is bread to go with it. It paints a picture of a self-sufficient Jesus. Jesus does not need anything from the disciples. Instead, Jesus makes an invitation: “Bring some of the fish you have just now caught”—the fish Jesus effectively gave to them—and “come, have breakfast.”As a quick historical sidenote, the apostles were probably very much looking forward to having breakfast (aristēsate, the morning meal). Wealthy Romans would eat three meals a day. Most everyone else ate two meals a day. Some ate the morning meal at dawn and some closer to midday. After a long night of work, the apostles were surely ready to eat and rest.The Abundant Catch, the Stronger NetWhen Jesus invites Peter to bring some of the catch, we are given two important details. The net was full (including some large fish), yet the net was not torn. There is a double image of abundance. The fish are many. If the fish symbolize people, then multitudes will come to Jesus. But even more beautifully, not a single fish is one too many. The net can hold all of them without problem. The Kingdom of God is sufficiently vast—it can handle the abundance of all who will come.Now this is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day. (John 6:39)153The number of fish caught amounted to 153. As you are probably familiar, there are few things that will cause more wild speculation than numbers in the Bible. This is no exception. Many people have applied the hermeneutical technique known as gematria to assign meaning to this number. Gematria is “the practice of assigning a numerical value to a name, word or phrase according to an alphanumerical cipher.” (Forgive me, this is one of the few times I have quoted Wikipedia.) For example, some suggest that the numerical value of the Hebrew expression for “children of God” is 153. Others use gematria to assign the numerical value to the fishing villages in Ezekiel 47:10. Others suggest even more remote possibilities like “Nathaniel gamma” or “alpha Mary.”Would John expect his readers to decipher the secret code behind the number 153? Obviously not. There is probably no secret code to be deciphered. It is the number of fish—a very large number that stresses the abundance of the fish and the historicity of the account. It also emphasizes the nearly miraculous fact that the net did not tear.Peter the ServantNotice that Peter was eager to reach and serve Jesus. As we discussed last time, he jumps from the boat and swims to shore, getting his clothes soaking wet. Then, when Jesus tells Peter to bring some of the catch, Peter immediately runs back to the boat and “pull[s] the net to shore.” (Not that this is the point of the passage, but Peter's ability to pull a full net to land suggests considerable physical strength.)The Third AppearanceJohn tells us this was the third appearance of Jesus to the disciples. One cannot be confident regarding exactly how John is counting, since Jesus appears to different disciples (particularly if the women are counted) more than three times. The context of chapter 20 suggests that John may be accounting for the appearance to the apostles when Thomas was not present, the appearance to the apostles when Thomas was present, and then this one.Jesus Feeds Them Bread and FishJesus gives the disciples bread and fish. This is reminiscent of Jesus' most public miracle, the feeding of the 5,000.Jesus said, “Have the people sit down.” (Now there was a lot of grass in that place.) So the men sat down, about 5,000 in number. Then Jesus took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed the bread to those who were seated. He then did the same with the fish, as much as they wanted. When they were all satisfied, Jesus said to his disciples, “Gather up the broken pieces that are left over, so that nothing is wasted.” So they gathered them up and filled 12 baskets with broken pieces from the five barley loaves left over by the people who had eaten. (John 6:10-13)Notice that the miracle in chapter 6 has the same motif of abundance discussed above. In chapter 21, the net does not break despite the large number of fish. In chapter 6, the food does not run out despite the large number of people fed. There's even ample leftovers. There is no competition in the message of the gospel. One man getting in does not push another one out. There is plenty for all.No One DaredIn my opinion, the most curios part of this scene is the apostles' fear to ask, “Who are you?” The text explains they were hesitant to ask “because they knew it was the Lord.”An online commentary has a potential explanation:The disciples lack of questions about Jesus' identity can be taken in several ways. One possibility is John emphasizing the lack of doubt, as if saying, "there's no need to ask, since it's clear."The other option is that the men believe this is Jesus, but they're tempted to ask, just to be sure. This would be like someone asking a close friend, "is it really you?" Or, as when seeing someone wearing new clothes with a new hair style, Jesus' resurrected form might have been subtly different (Luke 24:13–16, 31; John 20:14). This would cast John's remark as reassurance: even though Jesus' appearance was not exactly as it had been, there was no valid reason to think it was someone else.I lean towards the second explanation. Recall the first appearance to the apostles:Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (John 20:19b-20, emphasis added)Jesus had to prove his identity during their first encounter. Then recall the second appearance to the apostles:Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and examine my hands. Extend your hand and put it into my side. Do not continue in your unbelief, but believe.” Thomas replied to him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:26b-28, emphasis added)Jesus had to prove his identity during their second encounter as well.Should Jesus have to prove his identity a third time? Perhaps the apostles thought that to ask for identity verification a third time would be tantamount to denial.The CallDo You Love Me More Than “These” Do?Peter receives a special call (i.e., vocation) from Jesus. The conversation begins with a pointed question, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these do?” Before we move on to Peter's answer, we must ask: who are “these”? The text does not provide an antecedent for the pronoun, so we must use context to understand to whom or what it refers. As translator's note 30 in the NET explains (emphasis added):To whom (or what) does “these” (τούτων, toutōn) refer? Three possibilities are suggested: (1) τούτων should be understood as neuter, “these things,” referring to the boats, nets, and fishing gear nearby. In light of Peter's statement in 21:3, “I am going fishing,” some have understood Peter to have renounced his commission in light of his denials of Jesus. Jesus, as he restores Peter and forgives him for his denials, is asking Peter if he really loves his previous vocation more than he loves Jesus. Three things may be said in evaluation of this view: (a) it is not at all necessary to understand Peter's statement in 21:3 as a renouncement of his discipleship, as this view of the meaning of τούτων would imply; (b) it would probably be more likely that the verb would be repeated in such a construction (see 7:31 for an example where the verb is repeated); and (c) as R. E. Brown has observed (John [AB], 2:1103) by Johannine standards the choice being offered to Peter between material things and the risen Jesus would seem rather ridiculous, especially after the disciples had realized whom it was they were dealing with (the Lord, see v. 12). (2) τούτων refers to the other disciples, meaning “Do you love me more than you love these other disciples?” The same objection mentioned as (c) under (1) would apply here: Could the author, in light of the realization of who Jesus is which has come to the disciples after the resurrection, and which he has just mentioned in 21:12, seriously present Peter as being offered a choice between the other disciples and the risen Jesus? This leaves option (3), that τούτων refers to the other disciples, meaning “Do you love me more than these other disciples do?” It seems likely that there is some irony here: Peter had boasted in 13:37, “I will lay down my life for you,” and the synoptics present Peter as boasting even more explicitly of his loyalty to Jesus (“Even if they all fall away, I will not,” Matt 26:33; Mark 14:29). Thus the semantic force of what Jesus asks Peter here amounts to something like “Now, after you have denied me three times, as I told you you would, can you still affirm that you love me more than these other disciples do?” The addition of the auxiliary verb “do” in the translation is used to suggest to the English reader the third interpretation, which is the preferred one.I favor the emphasized, third interpretation. As the translator's note explains, Peter had promised to die for Jesus, and that he loved Jesus more than all the other disciples.Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow me now, but you will follow later.” Peter said to him, “Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you!” (John 13:36-37)Peter said to him, “If they all fall away because of you, I will never fall away!” Jesus said to him, “I tell you the truth, on this night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” (Matthew 26:33-34)But Peter denied and deserted Jesus just like all the others. Now that Jesus has died and resurrected, what will Peter do? Will Peter look at his failures and lose all self-confidence? Maybe a downtrodden Peter is unwilling to try again, unwilling to commit to a lofty cause. Or will a foolish Peter learn nothing from his mistakes and arrogantly make the same promises again? If “these” refers to the other disciples, Jesus is putting Peter to the test and asking, (I paraphrase) “Do you stand by your prior statements?”Slightly paraphrased, Peter responds saying, “You know the answer. I love you.” Peter is speaking earnestly, since he is counting on Jesus' divine ability to see into Peter's heart and mind. But Peter also seems to have learned some humility. The answer is not, “Yes, I love you more that them.” It is simply, “Yes, I love you.” Maybe Peter realizes he is neither as good as he thought nor are the other disciples as bad as he thought. This newfound humility, however, does not change the fact that Peter is hurt by Jesus' repeated questions, which begin to sound accusatory. The word translated as “distressed” is the same word used to describe the sorrow the disciples felt for the death of Jesus (John 16:20).Agape vs PhileoA detail that we must discuss is the different Greek words translated as “love” in Jesus' three questions and Peter's three responses. Jesus' first question uses agapas, and Peter's first response uses philo. The second question again uses agapas, and Peter once again responds with philo. The third time, however, Jesus uses the word phileis, and Peter again responds with philo.In the Greek language, both agape and phileo mean love. Nevertheless, their semantic ranges are different. Agape is normally associated with a “higher” love that involves wishing well, taking pleasure in, esteem, and in the Christian context, self-sacrifice. Phileo often means to be friends (of a person or object), such as what brothers or close friends may feel for one another.Because of these different semantic ranges and the fact that English only has one word for love, Christians often use the Greek terms to explain and distinguish the kinds of love God has for us and that we should have for God and one another. Broadly speaking, Christians say that agape love is the higher type of love that God has for us and that we should have for him. Christians may even say we need to strive to have this agape love towards one another. Although that may very well be true, we must be careful to understand the Greek words and how they are used in the Bible. Sometimes agape is being used intentionally and distinctly from other words for love such as phileo—precisely to emphasize its higher, self-sacrificial nature. But not always. Sometimes the terms are used interchangeably.In the Gospel of John, and particularly during this closing scene between Jesus and Peter, agape and phileo are clearly used interchangeably. The story makes little sense if we ready it like this:Jesus: Peter, do you have high love for me? Peter: Yes, I have low love for you. Jesus: Peter, do you have high love for me? Peter: Yes, I have low love for you. Jesus: Peter, do you have low love for me? Peter: Yes, I have low love for you. Jesus: Great! Take care of my people.The moral of the story is, let's use linguistics wisely.The TaskTo each affirmation of Peter's love, Jesus gives a response and a task. First, “Feed my lambs.” Second, “Shepherd my sheep.” Finally, “Feed my sheep.” Then Jesus makes a somber prophecy:I tell you the solemn truth, when you were young, you tied your clothes around you and went wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and others will tie you up and bring you where you do not want to go. (John 21:18)Jesus concludes his instructions to Peter with the simplest command, “Follow me.”Although the setting of the conversation includes fishing, fishermen, and fish, already an analogy for the ministry, the apostles, and believers, Jesus uses different imagery to deliver his message—shepherding. Jesus says “feed my lambs” and “feed my sheep.” These are effectively identical statements with lambs acting as a synonym for sheep. Jesus also says, “shepherd my sheep,” which in a literal sense includes all the duties of the shepherd, not only feeding. The three successive statements are a command to Peter—be like a shepherd to my people.Then, Jesus' prophecy clarifies the extent of the call. Shall Peter abandon the sheep if trouble comes? No. Notice Jesus does not command, “care for my sheep with your life,” he goes much further and predicts that outcome. Peter will die caring for believers. Jesus' foretelling is sobering. When Peter is old he will “stretch out [his] hands” that someone may bind them—which usually preceded execution. Early Christian tradition is that Peter died by crucifixion, probably upside down. So, early Christian texts interpreted the phrase “stretch out your hands” to mean crucifixion.The prediction of Peter's death for the sheep is incredibly powerful in light of an earlier use of the shepherd analogy. Recall the following passage:“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand, who is not a shepherd and does not own sheep, sees the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and runs away. So the wolf attacks the sheep and scatters them. Because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep, he runs away. (John 10:11-13)Jesus calls Peter to be like the good shepherd, not like the hireling. But that call only makes sense if Peter is in fact not a hireling anymore. The whole point of the analogy in chapter 10 is that the hireling is not part of the household. The sheep belong to someone else, so he has no incentive to die for them. The call to Peter in chapter 21 implies that Peter is now part of the household. As I have been saying throughout this study, it means Peter is now a son of God—one with inheritance rights. At least in either the filial or fraternal sense, the sheep are now his.What About Him?Peter must have understood Jesus' prophecy—that he was to be executed—because when Peter noticed John (“the disciple whom Jesus loved”), he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus responds harshly, “What concern is that of yours?” (Some translations put it more bluntly, “What is that to you?”) Jesus makes clear that even if he chose to have John “live until [Jesus] comes back” that is no business of Peter.Two important points must be noted. First, such is the call of God—completely up to him. I can hardly express this point better than the Wesley Covenant Prayer:I am no longer my own, but yours. Put me to what you will, place me with whom you will. Put me to doing, put me to suffering. Let me be put to work for you or set aside for you, Praised for you or criticized for you. Let me be full, let me be empty. Let me have all things, let me have nothing. I freely and fully surrender all things to your glory and service. And now, O wonderful and holy God, Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer, you are mine, and I am yours. So be it. And the covenant which I have made on earth, Let it also be made in heaven. Amen. (This version uses modern language. The original prayer can be found here.)Our duty is to heed the call, not to decide what the call is. This is the true Christian egalitarianism. Some may be called to rule nations, some to intense and unappreciated physical labor. Some may be called to preach, some to sing, some to write, some to remain silent. Some may be called to be great adventurers and some to be homebound. But what is that to you and me? Nothing at all. Your call is yours and mine is mine, and in that sense we are the same.The second point to be made is that even Jesus' early disciples misinterpreted him! Notice that Jesus uses hyperbole to respond to Peter, “If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours?” Jesus will come back in the eschaton—at the end times. We could paraphrase Jesus' response as, “If I want John to live forever, what is that to you?” The point is that Peter's comparison with John is inappropriate. Yet, as the text tells us, early Christians misunderstood Jesus' hyperbole and believed John “was not going to die.” Notice that as John writes the gospel late in his life, he attempts to set the record straight, “But Jesus did not say to him that he was not going to die, but rather, ‘If I want him to live until I come back, what concern is that of yours?'” We should be careful to interpret Jesus properly as well.The ClosingJohn closes his gospel with two statements. First, in verse 24, he emphasizes that his gospel is his testimony. The implication is he saw and lived the things he wrote down, and therefore the gospel is reliable. This statement is also in keeping with ancient Mediterranean documents, which typically listed witnesses at the end of the document.Finally, verse 25 is a throwback to verse 20:30, “Now Jesus performed many other miraculous signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not recorded in this book.” Like we discussed last time, ancient biographies sometimes ended with this kind of summary praise. But as we also discussed, whereas other documents may have meant it solely as hyperbolic praise, we have good reason to believe John meant it more literally.My SuggestionWe have come to the end of John. Believe it or not, we covered almost the entire commentary on John by Craig Keener—a two-volume, 1200-page text! My blog alone is approximately 130,000 words! That's roughly the length of Tolkien's The Return of the King. The point I am trying to make is that regardless of what you think of me, we learned. I dare say there is not a seminary course out there that covers John in as much detail as we have.But if Christianity is true, then there is more to it than propositional knowledge. There is more than just learning. So I end the Gospel of John with a simple suggestion: experience it. Go meet with believers and see for yourself. I say this with trepidation. I fear you may allow a bad Christian (or a group of bad Christians) to disprove the gospel. Although that would not be proper logic, I must concede that if the gospel is true, then it must have an effect. There must be some group somewhere that is different because of it. It is in that spirit that I encourage you: try it out. Go to church.But what if the church you visit or have already been attending is a bad one? How would you even know that it is a bad one? Here are some further suggestions. Consider the following:(1) Does the church believe the Bible? An easy way to figure this out is by observing the church's response to the controversial topics, such as homosexuality. I am not saying that homosexuality is some primary theme of scripture. It is a sin as many others. Nevertheless, it is one of those behaviors that is clearly considered sinful in the Old Testament and the New Testament, several times over. When a church condones homosexual behavior, you might consider a different church not because of their take on homosexuality per se, but because that church does not believe that the Bible is authoritative. That's the real problem.(2) Does the church believe the core Christian doctrines? I will make it simple. Could they honestly recite the Apostles' Creed?I believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary,suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended to the dead.On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy catholic Church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting. Amen. (3) Does the church practice fellowship? You don't go to church just to learn. You can do that through an odd Saturday-night bible study taught by some stranger. You go to church to be a part of a family. Again, I will put it simply: are you treated like a new friend? I mean a real friend. If not, you might reconsider your church choice.(4) Can you bear with all the other details? This last suggestion may seem surprising, but it is eminently practical. If the style of worship is so modern you feel silly and embarrassed to participate, I doubt you will go back. If the style is too old and stuffy, you might be looking at your watch more than you focus on worship. Do you have nothing in common with the people there? Is the drive to church too far? Is the service too early? To be honest, I would drive a long way, to a service that is too early, to sing songs I don't like, with people with which I have nothing in common, if the people at the church were godly and the message was true. But it's not always an either/or matter. If you can find a church in which you fit better (after taking into account the first three considerations above), do it.If you have a hard time finding a church, or if you are wondering whether some church has sound doctrine, email me. I will be glad to help you research that church. It can be difficult sometimes. A common trend for modern churches is to have vague names that sound inviting, but those names are hardly helpful in determining what they believe or to what denomination they belong. If you want to know what you are stepping into, visit the church's website for a statement of beliefs or watch some of their sermons available on YouTube, if any. Of course, if you know their denomination, you already know their “official” beliefs. I put “official” in quotation marks because individual congregations often depart from what the larger denomination believes. There are “good” and “bad” churches of most denominations. Again, if you are struggling, send me an email. I will be happy to help.May God bless you forever and ever.

Happy new year! Expect fewer posts this year. I will keep going with this podcast, but I am shifting my time commitment to (1) get the book over the line. No more excuses; and (2) Work on developing “business comedy”. I will write more about #2 at some point, but for now enjoy the podcast, and be happy if you weren't flying Southwest the last few weeks!Full TranscriptEdward: Peter, how were the holidays?Peter: Wow. It seems like a million years ago, doesn't it? It's amazing. We had that kind of one day after New Year's adjusting and then boom. But it was great. I went down to Antarctica and it was amazing. Super fun, super interesting. What about yourself?Edward: We tortured ourselves by taking our four little children to Guatemala and Belize.Peter: Wow, that's bold. That's bold.Edward: But I think the nice thing is both of us missed the travel meltdown that happened. I think we both got out before everything started falling apart across America.Peter: It was amazing actually being down in Antarctica. where it's kind of warmer and more pleasant than it was in most parts of the us. What a mess that wasEdward: Go to Antarctica for the heat .Peter: Well, it was summer and, I think unfortunately the repercussions of that are still rippling through and it's gonna be a while before that all settles down.Edward: It's interesting. We were flying on Alaska and there's now a direct flight between Seattle and Belize City. and there were three flights before ours, and they're a limited number of flights now that go back and forth. Like they're only every couple of days. And the three flights before ours were all canceled, so we're on the edge of our seats and whether we were gonna get back on time.Peter: And between all the cancellations that were happening earlier in the summer for different kinds of reasons, staffing, and now all of the kind of Southwest mess, which is more kind of operational issues, we have a very different feeling in the stomach when we pull up to the airport these days.Edward: One of the news this week, southwest Airlines had a big, big mess up where every, all the airlines kind of had trouble, but I think Southwest had the most at one point, I think they'd canceled half their flights. It was like a huge, huge, huge.Peter: Yeah. And I guess, if you read, some of the, articles and blogs about it, it seems like it was, it was inevitable, right? That they've been on a bit of a downward spiral in recent years and letting go of some of the operational aspects that would've never happened back in the old days. But, it's a shame it had to hit. Abruptly, and it's such an inconvenient time.Edward: Well, that's what's gonna happen, right? When you run really lean, if everything's going well, it's not a problem. It's when things start to go wrong, all of a sudden they can go really, really wrong because that's when things break.Peter: Exactly. And of course, the lessons to be learned are, How not to let them break, but also how to, how to recover from it. And I still think there's a lot of lingering questions about that.Edward: I think the Wall Street Journal was just publishing earlier this week about how Southwest is now saying, sorry. They're admitting their failures. They're offering, they said 25,000 frequent flyer points so that passengers hit by the travel meltdown. What do you think of that? Like, what is the value. The passengers who are getting that treatment to get them to come back? Or is it the signaling to non passengers that, Hey, we really.Peter: It's very interesting. My, initial reactions be really, really fun to, to talk through, was not a positive one. About that move. Couple of reasons. Number one, devalues the point. It's like, we're just gonna throw some stuff at you. You spent all this time trying to get people to value points and earn and get status and all the great things you can do. But just to use it as a way just throwing stuff at you, it kind of makes you wonder about the value of that currency and what it really means to Southwest. So there's one reaction. What, do you think about that?Edward: I think they claimed in that same article they said, those 25,000 points is worth $300, which would, which you put each point at worth more than a penny, maybe it's $300 if you do it absolutely perfectly in how you use it. But I think most people value these points at less than a penny. But you're saying that the fact they're giving points at all rather than giving people the $300, in either future travel or $300 in cash, the fact they're doing it in points, what degrades the value of the point .Peter: I think it does, maybe less from a fungibility standpoint, but from a psychological one, we try to associate these points with good things and aspirations and bonuses and like, wow, look at all things we can do with it. But here we're framing it or they're framing it as, this is a way that we're covering our ass and, and making up for a problem. And, I think it taints the idea of, of what these points are all about.Edward: I'm just thinking, when I was traveling, I stayed at,, back before Marriott bought them. I was staying at Starwood Hotels and they offered points for all sorts of things, but that was their go-to for both good things for, Hey, do these things we want you to do and we'll give you bonus points., get our credit card, we'll give you bonus points, stay in our hotels, get more points. But they would also use them for when things went wrong. And I remember times where like, Hey, they messed up my hotel room. Or there was really loud noise at night. Or they had, the pool wasn't working. And in those cases when you said, Hey, you guys made a mistake, their go-to thing was, well, here's some points. And I don't think I felt bad about that. I felt, I think I felt good about that.Peter: = I think it's different. I think it's a very different situation because, I've of course been in many of those situations myself, but, when it happens on an ad hoc basis like that, it's like, look at me, you know, I was a good negotiator. Look at what I got out of them. So at that point, it seems like a bonus. , I got something that other people might not have gotten. Whereas in this case it's a blanket offer, so it's not so no one's gonna feel like that they got something that they earned it, they're being treated all the same, and it's just sort of being thrown at them. It's not the outcome of some kind of, negotiation or something like that. So I think it's the points are framed very differently.Edward: Should they have done it below the line? . So instead of announcing that the Wall Street Journal they were doing it, should they have just approached each individual independently and said, Hey, we felt really bad. What happened to you specifically? Here's 25,000 points to make up for.Peter: And maybe vary the amount of points based on what people paid for the ticket or just how much inconvenience they were. Something like that. I think if they tried to make it a little bit more personal instead of just, again, sweeping it under the rug. Here you go, people, here's your points. Now shut up and let's keep going. I think that it might have just felt a little different.Edward: Who's to say they're not doing that? Maybe, they led out with the top line saying, Hey, it's 25,000 points to everybody. Here's the Wall Street Journal article. But maybe below the line they're saying, Hey, we're giving 25,000 points to everybody. But for you, We're gonna give you 30 or we're gonna give you 40 because of what happened to you and we wanna make so special.Peter: Or maybe it opens up that negotiation where people will go back to 'em and say, 25 isn't enough. I deserve more. In which case they would feel a little better about those incremental points that they were able to negotiate for. One of the other things that I find interesting about it, and this just kinda shows our age over here a little bit, is that Southwest, unlike the other airlines, hasn't been as, Has dependent on the loyalty program. They haven't called attention to it quite as much, and for years and years and years, they actively resisted having one. They always said that, look, we're just giving you a good deal. We're gonna treat you really well. We don't need to sweeten it in the way that some of these other big evil and personal airlines do. I kind of admired that about them, but then eventually they caved in. Everyone has to have it, butEdward: now they're so much money and a credit card.Peter: They have to do it, and that's fine. It's inevitable they would, but now they're calling even more attention to the program. And again, they're doing it in a way that has nothing to do with loyalty, that has nothing to do with that good feeling. It's just another currency. And it, takes, something special out of it and makes you start thinking about Southwest in a slightly more, I don't know, commoditized way .Edward: Have you looked at cohorts like this? So, like either an airline or something similar where something really bad happens. The people who experience that really bad thing, do you see what happens to their lifetime value? Does it drop significantly?Peter: I love that. I I love that. I can't believe that you raised that before I did. We do that all the time. In fact, the most obvious example being covid. But plenty of others, you know, we'll, we'll find cases where there's some kind of either competitive entry or the company engaging in some kind of other big strategic change. Not so much the first thing to do, but maybe the most telling thing to do is to say, , what's the nature of those customers, of the customers acquired during that time and how do they compare, you know, better or worse to, to others? I think that's a really great analysis to do and ends up being, I think, much more telling about the impact of that intervention than just a lot of the kind of day-to-day moment to moment. Nonsense on social media. So it's a great analysis. Now let's press pause on that and pick it up, a year from now and it would be great if Southwest would divulge some of that data.Edward: To me there's, three effects. There's one which is Southwest did this big mess up. It's in the news. How is that gonna affect my future travel with Southwest? Like how many times was I going to travel with Southwest? I wasn't affected by it, but I heard about it. Is that gonna drive down my future likelihood to fly Southwest then? Then number two is the people who were actually affected by it. They were traveling on Southwest, they released somewhat loyal to Southwest and that they bought one ticket. How is that going to affect their future travel with Southwest and is it gonna be more so than how my, I'm affected? You can even break that down even further by. People who, people who that was their first flight with Southwest. That's their only experiences with those Southwest. Versus a frequent traveler. And then number three is what effect did the intervention have? And I think the problem with this is that, Number two and number three, we can't separate because they're giving it to everybody. Now, if they've done it below the line, they could have just given it to like 90% of the people and 10%, 10% get nothing. You're screwed, buddy. Just so they can measure the effect of whether their intervention paid out.Peter: I love that. I love that. Or at least to communicate it differently to different people. Some people it could be a more positive message like, Hey, you get a free vacation on us. Or with other people it might be a, oops, we screwed up. You know, we feel bad. So that there still could be ways that they could try to get some insight from it. I suspect they're not, I suspect they're gonna try to make it as blanket and generic and, just get it out there and forget about this thing, which of course raises another problem which is they, giving points away isn't addressing the problem. all the operational issues that have been creeping up on them. The last thing they want is to throw a bunch of points at people and to see issues like this keep recurring, even if it's not quite as severe and public as what happened a couple of weeks ago. They're gonna still have operational concerns. And this whole points thing, the fact that weren't even talking about it, might call even more attention to future problems they have.Edward: Have you seen any examples like that? Like what should Southwest expect? What should it do to propensity to fly for people like me that weren't, didn't experience it? What should it do to the propensity to fly to the, for the people who got hit?Peter: Maybe The Thing to do, you gotta give some points or money or do something. But maybe it should be more communications around here's what we're doing to fix the problems. You know, here are the new people we're gonna hire and the new systems we're gonna integrate, and the new processes that we're gonna have to try to keep people alert. Again, I haven't stayed that close attention to this, but, I'd rather hear about the issues and how they're addressing them, rather than trying to just, throw points at people and pretend it's all better.Edward: I imagine this what the investors would care about more than anything else.Peter: Sure. And ultimately that might be what matters most, cuz there's no doubt they took a big hit here and I think people are gonna be looking at 'em skeptically for a while now. They need to earn people's trust back and again, it's not clear that 25 k points, closes the chapter here.Edward: They need a new, what's their tagline? Like, flying the Friendly Skies. Is that Southwest?Peter: No, that's, United.Edward: Oh my gosh. What's Southwest tagline?Peter: Oh, geez. , we should know our airlines better here. You're look, looking it up.Edward: Lofas. Nothing to hides. That's transparency. That's their, oh my gosh. That's terrible. .Peter: Yes, exactly. And, and here they're, they're trying to hide a lot, . And again, it's not very evil. It's not a conspiracy, but they're not being transparent. They're not addressing the issues. At least through this one tactic,Edward: they can do the new tagline. We will try harder. We'll do better.Peter: and we'll throw some points at you if it doesn't work. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

Peter Koerte is the Chief Technology Officer and Chief Strategy Officer at Siemens. Contact Peter: Web: http://siemens.com/xcelerator LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterkoerte/ Twitter: @PeterKoerte Contact Avrohom: Web: https://asktheceo.biz Facebook: AvrohomGottheil Twitter: @avrohomg Instagram: @avrohomg INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS: Avrohom: So, we're here live at Xcelerator where, Peter, you just announced something really exciting about this new exciting thing that Siemens has launched called Xcelerator. Can you share with us a little bit about what's behind all this? Peter: Yeah, sure. So, Siemens Xcelerator is all about making digital transformation for our customers insanely easy. To make it fast, easy, and at scale. And the B2B environment, that's really tricky. Because you have to ensure that data silos are being broken down and that data is flowing seamlessly. So, the heart of Siemens Xcelerator is being open, so that it brings different solutions from different vendors together, and then make it interoperable so that these things do work together. These are the two magics that we do with Siemens Xcelerator for our customers. Avrohom: I love what you said about breaking down the data silos, because in the legacy world, that's what we have. We have people that only focus on their vertical, their products, and nothing else, and we need to interoperate with one another. Which brings up the next point. So, I come from the Telecom world, and we had this term called vendor lock-out, where you buy all your hardware and equipment from this one vendor, and they kind of hold you. You have to buy their network, you have to buy their equipment, and you can't buy anything else. So, how does Siemens address this vendor lock-out? Peter: Yes, it's a big topic also for us, and for our customers. So, if we talked today with CIO's, they would say, “I don't want to be locked-in on your very specific solution.” And right they are! And we don't want to either. So, all the CIO's are going to tell you, “I don't want to buy yet another platform.” So, it's always a question of the value that you bring. And they are very capable of opening up and also sharing data with us, providing that the solution you provide is really adding return on their part. And so for example in buildings, if you can demonstrate that the solution that you're implementing is: (a) is flexible enough that is does work in their environment, and that (b) that they really get potential savings, for example, out of energy efficiency, then they are perfectly fine and they're happy to do that. But it's always the value that you have to bring to the customers. That's the way we think about it. Avrohom: So now, talking about another value, everyone is talking about sustainability as being the next big thing. Be it climate change, or just government initiatives, and things like that. Does Siemens have any criteria for selecting their partners or suppliers when it comes to clean energy and sustainability? Peter: Yes, so at Siemens, we've given ourselves a target that we want to be carbon neutral in our own operations by 2030, and then also with all of our supplier base by 2050. So, therefore, we are heavily engaged with our partners and suppliers, as you said, in order to drive that down. So today, when you interact as a supplier with us, we have very stringent requirements. And it also comes down to the sharing. For example, if you want to know the product carbon footprint of our solutions that we brought to our customers, we need to know from OUR suppliers in order to make that work. So, that's just an example. So, yes, there are many criteria in order to get there. Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/OZ5lr22UoJo

 Audio recordingSermon manuscript:Our Gospel reading today is most of the last chapter of John's Gospel. We are picking up today where the Gospel reading from last week left off. Last week we heard how Jesus appeared to the disciples on Easter evening. Then he appeared to Thomas a week later. So the events that we heard about this morning would have had to have happened sometime between this week after Easter and Jesus ascension, which is forty days after Easter. According to last week's reading the disciples were in Jerusalem. Now they have left Jerusalem. They have gone back to Galilee, to the Sea of Galilee. You heard Peter say, “I'm going fishing.” This does not seem to be a leisurely fishing expedition. Peter and at least a few other of the apostles fished for a living before Jesus called them to be apostles. The text mentions that they were out fishing all night long. Kids might gladly stay up all night long to catch fish for fun, but these grown-ups probably had other plans. They wanted to sell the fish they caught. Their plans, however, came to nothing. They were empty handed come dawn. Then their fortunes turned. A fellow was there on the shore in the gray misty morning. He's about 100 yards away. He asks them if they have any fish. No? “Well, then, throw your nets on the right side of the boat and you will find some.” Lo and behold, that's exactly what happened. Not only did they find some fish, they caught a whole bunch of them. They had so many fish that they couldn't lift the net into the boat. This almost certainly would have brought to these men's mind another bonanza that happened a few years before this. Perhaps almost like a flashback. A few year before this Peter and his associates still fished for a living. There was another night when they hadn't caught anything. The next day they were on the shore working on their nets when Jesus showed up with a large crowd of people. In order that Jesus should be heard by them all Jesus got into Peter's boat and went out from shore a ways. As he spoke from the boat his voice reflected off the water and all the people could hear. When Jesus was done speaking he told Peter to go out where it was deep and let down his nets for a catch. That didn't seem like a good idea to Peter, but since Jesus told him to, he agreed. As soon as the nets plopped into the water so many fish came into his nets that they started to strain and pop under the weight. His boat and James' and John's boat quickly filled up so that they were starting to sink. Then Peter fell on his knees before Jesus and said, “Depart from me Lord, for I am a sinful man.”  Jesus said, “Do not be afraid. From now on you will be catching men.” Then, when they got to shore, they left everything behind and began to follow Jesus. This was the way that Peter was called to be an apostle. As you can see, something similar happened again on this early morning after Jesus rose from the dead. The seven apostles had caught nothing all night. Then, at Jesus's word, the net was filled completely. When Peter and the rest get to shore Jesus already has breakfast prepared for them. There's already a fire that has been burning so that it is now hot coals. Fish has already been prepared as well as bread. Jesus, though, tells Peter to also take from the fish that he had caught. So Peter goes and hauls in the huge catch of fish that you would think would make the net burst. It is not said whether or how this fish was added to the meal. The next thing that Jesus says is, “Come and have breakfast.” Then we have something, again, that might cause a flashback: Jesus took bread and gave it to them as well as the fish. This might have brought to the disciples' minds yet another thing from the past. There were at least two prior occasions when Jesus fed a great multitude with a few loaves of bread and a few fish. I'm referring to the feeding of the 4,000 and the 5,000. It seems to me that by this breakfast Jesus is communicating something to these disciples. It's true: Things had radically changed for them. Their day-to-day activities were different than from before Jesus was crucified. It looks like Peter and the rest were thinking about going back to their old livelihoods. But Jesus is showing them that while they worked hard all night and caught nothing, he has a meal already prepared. Jesus, who can feed multitudes, can also feed them. Then Jesus asks Peter if he loves him more than these, and by “these,” he presumably is referring to the other disciples. Does Peter love Jesus more than the other disciples? There are several things to point out about this exchange, but let's begin by noting how this also brings up something from the past—the very recent past, in fact. On the night when Jesus was betrayed a couple things happened. The thing you can probably easily remember is that Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper. There was also on that night a discussion among the disciples over which of them was the greatest. When Jesus put his 2 cents in, he threw them altogether in the same pot. He said that they were all going to forsake him as the Scriptures foretold. Peter disagreed with Jesus. He didn't know about the other disciples, but as for him, he would never forsake Jesus. Even if he had to die he wouldn't leave Jesus. He loved Jesus more than all the rest of them. Perhaps you recall Jesus's response: “Before the rooster crows, you, Peter, will betray me three times.” And so it came to pass. While Jesus was being interrogated and abused in the chief priest's house Peter was outside by a charcoal fire. He was asked three times whether he was one of Jesus's disciples. All three times he said he wasn't. The last time he said it even with cursing and swearing. Then the rooster crowed. So when Jesus asked Peter at this shore-side breakfast whether he loved him more than the others I have to believe that this painful and embarrassing episode was brought to Peter's mind. Now there's no bombast. You can see that Peter is humbled. Peter no longer believed in himself and in the power of his own faith like he did on the night Jesus was betrayed. He had learned by experience how weak he was, how he failed to watch and pray, and how susceptible to temptation he was. Jesus asks three times whether Peter loves him, and there is no bragging on Peter's part. Let me say something about the different words that Jesus and Peter use in these questions and responses. Perhaps you noticed how the translation had Jesus say, “Peter, do you love me?” and Peter responded, “Yes, Lord, you know I care for you.” Most translations do not do it this way because this sounds kind of harsh in English. Most translations have Jesus say, “Peter, do you love me?” and Peter responds, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” In English, when one says, “love,” and the other responds, “Yes, I care for you.” This sounds like a much bigger difference than how it sounds with the Greek. The advantage, however, of the way our translation did this is that it points out that there are two different words that are being used. Jesus asks if Peter has agape love for him. Peter responds that he has filial love for him. The difference between agape love and filial love is not so huge. They can almost be used interchangeably. But notice how Jesus changes the word he uses. Jesus asks Peter, “Do you have agape love for me?” Peter says, “Yes, I have filial love for you.” This happens two times. Then, after Peter has said that he has filial love for Jesus two times, Jesus changes his word to the word that Peter has been using: “Do you have filial love for me?” Peter is hurt. He has said he cares for Jesus two times. Then Jesus asks him, “Do you care for me?” There's one more part of this exchange that we need to consider. After Jesus asks and Peter responds Jesus follows that up with three very similar sayings. Jesus: “Do you love me?” Peter: “Yes, Lord.” Jesus: “Feed my lambs.” Again, “Do you love me?” “Yes, Lord.” “Be a shepherd for my sheep.” Finally, “Do you care for me?” “You know all things. You know that I care about you.” Jesus says, “Feed my sheep.” So if we put all these together Jesus says, “Feed my lambs,” “Be a shepherd for my sheep,” and “Feed my sheep.” The lambs or sheep that Jesus is referring to is those who would believe the apostles' testimony about Jesus. The way that these lambs or sheep are fed is with the Word of God. Jesus is telling Peter to care for the Jesus's sheep by feeding them Jesus's word. As you know, this is what Peter would go on to do. Beginning at Pentecost Peter would preach fearlessly and with great boldness that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, even to those who put Jesus to death and had the authority to do the same to Peter too. So what are we to make of this whole exchange? Let me just say that I do not think I understand everything going on here as well as I'd like. There are other details that we haven't even gotten into. But I'd like to point out one thing: Note how different this morning has been compared to the night when Jesus was betrayed. Peter is low here whereas before he was very confident. Peter, it seems, is thinking about going back to his old profession. Jesus encourages him with friendly reminders of Jesus's faithfulness. When Jesus asks him if he loves him, Peter doesn't charge ahead with great boldness like he did on the night when Jesus was betrayed. He doesn't say that even if he needs to die for Jesus that he will always be faithful and true. How could he? Peter has been humbled; his responses are humble. Nevertheless, note where Jesus directs his attention: “Feed my lambs, shepherd my sheep, feed my sheep.” Peter is to go about doing what Jesus has always intended for him to do. Peter will preach and teach Jesus to the salvation of those who will believe. The way that this will be carried out, however, is not how Peter was thinking previously. It will be carried out humbly and with great weakness. On the night Jesus was betrayed Peter felt great. He had never felt more powerful spiritually. He felt that he could take on a whole army single-handedly with his trusty sword. This was a false faith. What ended up happening is that he was afraid of even a little servant girl. Peter does not feel nearly so good about himself on this early morning sometime after Easter but before Christ's ascension. It never feels good to anyone to be humbled. But throughout Peter's faith is being directed to things that will not let him down. Jesus gently encouraged him by bringing to mind Jesus's faithfulness. Jesus sets him on his way. He will feed the sheep of the Good Shepherd. However, it won't be with bravado and harshness. One sinner will be telling another sinner where they can have forgiveness, life, and peace—in Jesus. This will turn out much better than what Peter was thinking previously. The Gospel and the Sacraments are Jesus's Gospel and Sacraments. It is his ministry. Whenever any Christian starts to rely upon his or her own gifts like Peter did, then he or she is getting ready to fall. The Christian who relies on his or her own gifts isn't very effective either. Such a one looks out at the world and wonders why everyone else can't be as spectacular as he or she is. Christians are not in the business of making other people to be just like them. Christians are in the business of urging others to believe in the same Jesus that the one speaking believes in. That is the true and saving message. One last thing from our reading: Jesus tells Peter that one day what he so feared on the night when Jesus was betrayed is actually going to happen. Peter had been afraid to suffer and die for Jesus. That's why he denied him. Another opportunity to confess Jesus's name was going to come, but this time Peter wasn't going to fail. Peter wasn't going to deny his Lord. He would be faithful unto death and receive the crown of glory. We are cut from the same cloth as Peter. We need to learn the same lessons. We also have the same Jesus upon whom we can learn to rely.

What you'll learn in this episode: The process Atelier Zobel uses to fuse different metals together in innovative and beautiful ways How Peter has maintained Michael Zobel's legacy while modernizing and refining the Atelier's designs Why Peter is attracted to imperfect gems, and how he designs jewelry that highlights the beauty of imperfection Why passion and a willingness to push boundaries are necessary for aspiring jewelry designers About Peter Schmid Peter Schmid owns Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Original owner Michael Zobel was a master craftsman who honed his skills and talent to create pieces that are arresting in their visual impact and remarkable in their goldsmithing and soldering technique. He combined metals in new, sensual, even erotic ways. The effect was electrifying. Working at his side was protégé Peter Schmid.  Like Zobel before him, Peter is both artist and craftsman, and he brings that special blend to every piece he creates. His chief inspiration is character: the character of place, the character of material, even the character of intent. Mountains and rivers inspire him. Precious stones inspire him. And the idea of what he is making inspires him, whether it's a ring or a brooch or a bracelet, or one that transforms into another. For Peter, every piece is about the interaction of visual elements with invisible inspiration. His work is revered worldwide for its attention to detail, its fusion of gold and silver, his gemstone settings, and the fluid movement all his pieces seem to share. Additional Resources: Website Instagram Photos: Jewelry from Peter Schmid:   Transcript: Peter Schmid might have become a corporate manager if he never walked past the window of Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Peter was instantly mesmerized by the jewelry on display, and he made it his goal to leave business school and become an apprentice for Michael Zobel. After a few years of jewelry design school, that dream came true, and today Peter is the head of Atelier Zobel. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share what advice he would give young jewelry designers who want to follow his path, why he loves using stones with imperfections, and how he has refined Atelier Zobel's designs and process. Read the episode transcript below. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Peter Schmid, head of the well-known firm Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Although he didn't set out to become a metalsmith and jewelry designer, his work is shown all over the world. Today we'll hear all about his jewelry journey. Peter, welcome to the program. Peter: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Sharon: Glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. They're all interesting, but this sounds like a very interesting one. Peter: Yeah, I don't know. When I started, I was basically thinking about what I was going to be in my professional career. I was thinking, “Well, I'll be an accountant or manager of something,” so I went to school. After that, I found out it's not actually exactly what I wanted to be, because I was always painting and interested in sculpting things and making things, but I never knew what to make; I just wanted to make something. So, a friend of my dad was like, “Well, why don't you become a goldsmith?” and I was like, “I don't know.” I looked at the jewelry of my mom and it didn't appeal so much. It's not what I wanted to do, the jewelry she had.  Then another friend was telling me about Konstanz, the town I'm now in, that there are so many goldsmiths here. It's a big tradition in Germany and in Konstanz especially. Then, I walked up to the window of Michael Zobel—this was in 1995—and I saw the window. It was amazing, with crazy decoration and big pieces in there. This is how jewelry should look like. It's an expression. It's an artful piece. It's a piece you wear for yourself and not for anybody else. It's a personal thing, and I think that got me more into this experience, what is jewelry and what to make out of it. Sharon: Were you always creative, or were you always painting and doing other things? Up to this point, were you doing things with your hands? Peter: Yes, I was always painting, but the paintings I did, I was playing with colors. It was a lot of just paint on the canvas and melting colors into each other. I was always fascinated by that. I didn't like my paintings that much, I have to say. I had an exhibition once here in Konstanz because people were pushing me into that, but I didn't feel like I was a painter. I didn't feel like this was my career or I was good enough for that, the play of color. Sharon: I'm jumping around now, but today do you feel like you're a jeweler? You didn't feel like you were a painter. Do you feel like you're a designer, a jeweler?  Peter: The designing for me is the pleasure of being free with my thoughts. I don't know if I'm a designer in the sense of designing. It's hard to say. Maybe I'm more an artist. But in the first place, that's the tradition here in Germany. How I learned metalsmithing and goldsmithing was basically traditional. It's more about the techniques and refining those techniques. It's also what our atelier still does. We're really working on the bench with the metal, melting them together and fusing them together. We basically use the metal as a paint as well as the stones and the color of the stones. I use this as a color palette, but with the skills of a goldsmith. It's nice to be able to do that and to use those traditions as well. Sharon: So, you combined everything, in a sense.  Peter: Yes. Sharon: So, you looked in the Michael Zobel window. Tell us why you saw this jewelry and said, “Oh my god, this is it.” What did you do from there? You became an apprentice, but how did that happen? Peter: I became an apprentice. I was very convinced that this was it. It never occurred to me that there is something else. What happened was I had a résumé made, and I walked into the shop and met Michael Zobel. I'm like, “I want to be your apprentice,” and he was like, “Well, you first have to go to school and learn the basic techniques of sewing and filing and soldering and all of this. This is what I need of somebody who comes to us. They need to know how to work with the tools.” I'm like, “O.K., sounds good to me.” So, I walked out again and applied to a school which offered a design course that was just a year longer than the regular school.  After that, I graduated as a jewelry designer as well as a theoretical goldsmith from that school. In Germany, you have to do both; you have to do school and learn with a master goldsmith. I did everything theoretically in school, learning how to file and do all the basics. I came back to him and said, “I'm done with my school and I want to apprentice with you.” He was like, “Well, I have an apprentice already.” For me, it was so clear that I was going to practice there. I never looked for anything else. I never thought of anything else, because that's the jewelry I wanted to make. Somehow I think he felt that I was really passionate about that, and he was like, “Well, I think this is the first and only year we're going to have two apprentices.” That was it, and he took me in as an apprentice. It was so interesting to learn, and yeah, it's different. You're on the lowest level when you start as an apprentice. You have to clean the workshop and supply basically all the other goldsmiths with whatever they need. If they need coffee, you have to go and run out for coffee. Sharon: Go get Starbucks, yes. Peter: Exactly, that's how it works. Sharon: So, you already had a career in a sense. You were on a different career path before you did this, right? Peter: Yes, I was in business school. I didn't really know what to do, but I felt like, “Well, business is always good. It sounds perfect.” My dad was also an entrepreneur and I felt like it was a good path, and I knew a lot about it already and how it is to work for yourself. Then in school, the whole time it was, “You're going to be manager of Zieman's and you're going to be manager of this and that company,” and I was like, “I don't want to be a manager of any company.” Sharon: When you decided to switch, did you meet resistance from family and friends? Like, “How are you going to make a living?” Peter: No, actually, everybody knew already. Sharon: They were happy you found something that made you happy. Peter: They were happy I finally realized that. Sharon: Wow, that's great! What is it about jewelry that attracted you when you saw it? They sound like statement pieces. Peter: There was a fusing of the work back then. Gold was not as expensive as it is today. There was a big cuff which was about, I don't know, like a Wonder Woman cuff, but all in gold with platinum on top of it. I looked at it and I was like, “This is so strong and mesmerizing,” because I didn't know how it was made, that the platinum on top was fused and it's all done by heat only. I could not believe how to make a piece like that. It was unbelievable. Sharon: I love that word, mesmerizing. That is really great word. I don't hear it too often, but it just drew you in. I'm not a maker—I've done some soldering and stuff, but when we look at your pieces with the gold on top of the—I don't even know what the other metal is. Peter: It's sterling silver. Sharon: Is it just heat that makes it stick together? Peter: Yeah, and magic I guess, but basically it's just heat. It's a heating process. We heat it up. It's like a granulation, which is also just heat to heat, and you granulate it. It's gold on top of sterling silver, and then we do gold with platinum on top or gold with gold on top. That works as well. Then there's sterling with palladium or sterling with platinum all together also. Sharon: That would be mesmerizing. Is this a technique that you learned outside of your schooling?  Peter: It is a tradition we have here in the studio and at Michael Zobel. When I came here as an apprentice, we already did a lot of the sterling with gold on top. I think Michael started that in the 80s, the first pieces, when I look back in our archive. Then, there were a lot of tryouts with different material on top, like copper and bronze. There was already a lot of trying of these things, and some worked out really well and some didn't so much. When I started working here, I learned all of these techniques to make jewelry in that way, with the fusing and basically painting on the piece.  At the beginning, I was just executing designs for Michael Zobel. Later I graduated as a goldsmith in the studio, and I worked here for a while as a goldsmith and in the shop, so I was in contact with the clients. I always liked to travel, and at one point we started traveling more in the U.S., building out more contacts there and doing shows in Baltimore. I think it was the late 90s when we were in Baltimore. It was fun, and I met Todd Reed. I met all these people. It was super fun. I had a great time, and for me, as a goldsmith, it was amazing to see all that. Michael liked to have somebody to travel with, so we built up that market together and it was nice.  At one point I took over the business, because I think he saw that I'm very passionate about it. I started to design my own pieces and work from there. It was very interesting to step forward into designing and making. I wasn't hired as a designer; I was hired as a goldsmith, but it was kind of a liquid transition to it. It's a flow. It went on. It's like a master and an apprentice, and then the apprentice becomes a master. It's quite an interesting way of moving on, with an atelier like that. Sharon: So, you were transitioning from being one of the hands-on people to translating your ideas, your vision into something that somebody else was making. Peter: Right. I became the head of the atelier later because Michael retired. I did my own work, and we moved on with a lot of the designs and the process. The fusing became more refined. I don't know how to describe it, but it became more textured on the surface. In the early days, we only had strong graphic designs. Now, they've become a bit more poetic because we do flowers and paisley, stuff like that. That wasn't possible before. It was interesting to work in the studio with the goldsmiths and push them into going forward in the making process and discovering new techniques in how we work. It was really cool.  That happened when I saw an exhibition of Japanese kimonos. Parts of them are stitched. There's stitching and printing on the kimonos, and they have these beautiful patterns. I thought, “It's amazing. I want to do something like that. I want to bring a pattern onto the surface of our jewelry.” We actually have been able to do that, to put a real pattern on it. The first pattern we figured out looked a bit like a koi pond. It's sterling silver as a base, and then we figured out how to print koi onto the figure in gold. We had golden koi printed on top. Sharon: It sounds beautiful. Peter: It was a beautiful piece with aquamarine, beautifully carved. There were aquamarine slices carved from the back on the surface, which was the water of the pond, and then the koi, which was a little reminiscent of the kimonos. Sharon: Wow, that sounds beautiful! You mentioned aquamarine. I know you have a real interest in gems. How did you develop that? Did you just start incorporating it, or was it already part of the atelier? Peter: It's interesting because now I love gems, but when I was in school—I don't blame the school, but when you learn about gems and have class about gemology, you look at these tiny little stones and they all look alike. I mean, one is blue and the other is red. O.K., this is tourmaline red and this is ruby red, but they all look alike. You have to use a microscope and all of that. I couldn't really grasp them as a piece of jewelry.  Now what I love about stones is the imperfection. I love a stone which is completely perfect; that's amazing, but I actually do like the imperfection in the stone. I feel like it's more personal. It's a unique stone and I'm always drawn to that one. I'm like, “This is off. The color is off,” and I want that. I want to have something that is not expected to be that color. Now I love stones and I use them as my color palette, but it was not so easy to get into gems. Sharon: Do your clients embrace the fact that you like the imperfections? Do they see it in the same way you do, that it gives the work personality, or are they like, “Oh, that's not a perfect stone”? Peter: No, I think they see what I do with it. For me, when I see this beautiful stone, it's not that it's sitting there as a flaw. It comes into a composition with the piece itself. I want to put it on a pedestal and show off that it's beautiful and that it has this imperfection. Sometimes, when there is an inclusion in the stone, for example, I repeat this inclusion onto the metal as an echo of the inclusion, so you really see the inclusion. I don't want to hide the inclusion; I want to show the inclusion. The cool part is the inclusion because that makes it real. A perfect stone could be synthetic, but nature is amazing, how that inclusion is in there. Hydroquartz or inner quartz is amazing, I think. They do great work with that. Sharon: You're probably surrounded by fabulous stones, both perfect and imperfect ones. Peter: Yes. Sharon: Tell us about your clientele. Is there a demographic of women of a certain age? Is it younger people? Is it men?  Peter: I don't know. Most clients, I think they like the jewelry because it is a personal piece. It's something you wear for yourself, and you don't have to show off with it. I mean, you show off; you get attraction with it. It's not something that hides. If you wear a piece of my work, you can definitely see it, and I think the clients appreciate it. They also like that people don't understand what it really is. It's an interesting piece.  I have one client, she never wore jewelry and then she came and was so in love. We had this exhibition on lucky charms. Lucky charms are usually these tiny things you wear around your wrist or your neck, but we made big ones. I made a really big brooch with a Buddha inside. There was an ancient Buddha about two or three hundred years ago inside, then rays of gold going away from that, and then rough diamonds as a frame, almost like a picture frame. It was a round brooch, and on top was a tourmaline cat's eye just to have this magical light, because the Buddha was in a triangle, sitting there in a niche. It's quite a big brooch, about 12 centimeters in diameter. The client came and she was like, “This is an amazing piece of art.” She didn't wear jewelry at all, but she bought the piece and she wears it all the time. When she doesn't wear it, she has it in a frame at home. I see her often in the city wearing it. Just like that, they go to a beer garden and she's wearing that piece around her neck, and it makes her feel good and lucky. It's amazing. Sharon: A different kind of lucky charm. If it makes her feel like she's lucky, that's half the battle. Do you do custom work? Do you do jewelry for men?  Peter: Yes, I do custom work. I love to do that. I love to explore special pieces with people when they tell me a story for what it is. We talk a little bit, and usually I get a sense of this person, if they like a big piece or a smaller piece. I'm not only making gigantic pieces. It has to fit to the person. The person has to be comfortable to wear it. It shouldn't be something which is wearing you; you should wear it. You should own it. That's what it should be, so I love to make custom pieces for people. Men are also super fun. I have a collection of Ashanti gold weights. They're from a tribe in Africa. Nowadays, I think it's in Ghana. The tribe of the Ashanti, they used to have these gold weights for trade back then. It was a different time, so they traded the gold with these little pronged weights. I think they're super interesting. Each one is different. I make a lot of men's jewelry with that, like a ring or a pendant, adding some rough diamonds to it and giving it an edge. Men tend to like the story around that. Also meteorite jewelry is often used for men. Sharon: I'm sorry, what kind of jewelry is used for men? Peter: Meteorite. Sharon: Oh, meteorite. Yes, that would be interesting. There's a masculine element to that.  Peter: Yeah, or opal. I love opals for men as well. Sharon: Who doesn't like opals? For those people just starting out, for the next person who knocks on your window and says, “This is really cool. I really want to do this,” what advice would you give them, besides make sure you know how to saw and all of that? That's important. Peter: It is important. Sharon: Oh, my gosh! It takes a lot of patience and you have to be very detail-oriented. You grew up with an entrepreneur as a father and you're an entrepreneur. What advice what you give somebody, besides that they have to have the foundational skills? What advice what you give somebody starting out? Peter: The first that comes to my mind is you have to be passionate about what you do. You must follow the passion in what you do and be true to that. I also think curiosity is important, to push it always a little bit. I think that's important to just push a little bit. I have a little story about pushing, because I have that in mind. When I was in school, we had pottery class and we had to make a flowerpot. You just have a flower in there. I started off making that flowerpot and I was like, “This is so boring. I can't even tell you how boring it is to make a tubular flowerpot out of clay.” Clay felt amazing for me, and so I started drifting off into clay. I ended up with—how do you call it, for watering flowers? Sharon: Like a watering can? Peter: Yeah, like a watering can out of clay. It was really amazing, and my teacher loved it because it was well-done and beautifully made. She had to take one point away from me because it was supposed to be a flowerpot, but it's always pushing a little bit, pushing the boundaries. I don't know; I love that. I think it's hard to stay within the parameters. I think passion is a good thing. Sharon: It's so important. It's clear that's what has driven you and continued the firm's success and made your jewelry so well-known. Peter, thank you so much for being with us today. Peter: My pleasure. That was fun. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.  

This time with Lars, the CEO of the advertising agency Maatwerk Online about how you should be using Chat or Messenger Bots to get more traffic and more sales on your website, or even more leads if this is what you aim for. You can find Lars on Twitter. Don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast on your favorite podcast app. Here is the transcript of the podcast: My name is Peter, and this is podcast episode number 38. If you can, go and comment, go and rate this podcast on the podcast app wherever you listen to us, and tell your friends that this is the place where they can get the best info on what is going on in marketing conferences, even if people are not able to go to the conference, every presentation in five minutes. Today, we are going to the Netherlands, where I'm very glad to welcome Lars. Lars: Hi, thank you. Thanks for having me. Peter: Lars Maat, thank you for being here. You are the rising star in PPC. At least a PPC Hero said that. You are the owner of the Maatwerk agency. What do you do in the agency, and what are your things? What's your favorite thing on the internet? Lars: To be honest, the rising star was back in 2020. It already feels like a light year ago. [laughter] Lars: Yes, that's true. PPC Hero made me a rising star in the PPC business. I think mainly because that year I spoke at PPC Hero Conf in London. I was announced best speaker of the conference. I think that gave it a boost, but, yes, my name is Lars. I'm currently owning online marketing AC. My background is really purely PPC. Google ads, Facebook ads, LinkedIn ads, Microsoft ads, stuff like that. At the moment, at the AC we are with 30 people. We are doing online marketing from A to Z. Basically, the only thing we don't do is build apps. We build websites, webshops, we do SEO and PPC, of course. I'm focusing on developing the business at the moment, try to implement new things. Innovations in our industry are a weekly thing as you might know. [chuckles] We try to keep up and then make sure that everything is set in place for our clients. Peter: You are one of those people who likes a lot of stress every day because advertising campaigns fail all the time and the algorithms change, and the number is going the wrong way. Do you enjoy that? Lars: Let's just say there's never a dull moment in an online marketing agency. Peter: [chuckles] See, this is why I like to do SEO. It's everything a bit more-- We have a couple of months to do stuff. In advertising, it's hours. Lars: To be honest, sometimes I'm really jealous of my SEO colleagues because, let's say, we are having a call with a client and a client is a little bit stressed about something, for example. We know if something goes wrong in a PPC account, you have to fix it right away. If something goes wrong on the SEO stuff, you just pick it up in one week or two weeks. It doesn't matter because you got the time. Yes, sometimes I'm a little bit jealous about the fact that I started to learn the wrong business. Peter: [chuckles] I know, but on the other hand, your business is the sexy thing in marketing, I think, for the last 10 years. SEO is somewhere not really the public favorite. Lars: Yes. I can understand. To be honest, we went to New York, we went to San Jose, California, on an invitation from Google, and my SEO colleagues are all jealous of me, so-- Peter: [chuckles] My wife is actually an advertiser. We've met in an agency where I was the SEO. She was the advertiser. It's very obvious in our personalities and things, how we see the world and everything, how we are very different. Lars, I've invited you to the podcast because you spoke at BrightonSEO. It was a bit different Brighton as we know it from the past, how did you enjoy the online version of Brighton this year? Lars: To be honest, this was my first BrightonSEO conference. I've spoken to a lot of speakers and colleagues who went to previous versions. I was invited for this one. I was really excited because, from what I've heard,Brighton is really a nice environment to be at, let's just say to go to the tops. Yes, it was an online version, of course. My presentation was about Messenger bots, so not really an SEO thing. I was really curious about how that presentation would be received by the audience, but yes, it was pretty nice, actually. It was a good first experience with BrightonSEO. Peter: Brighton, a couple of years ago, started to move away from- it still has, from my opinion, the best technical in-depth SEO presentations, but the other advertising and other tracks are also being very developed, better and better, and BrightonSEO is now a Brighton conference, not an SEO conference, but yes, departs from the pier, the best. Lars: Yes, so I've heard. [chuckles] Peter: All right. Let's not beat around the bush. Let's go and check out your five minutes with your presentation on how Messenger bots will make you more money. Lars: Yes. I'm going to try to do this in five minutes. [chuckling] The presentation in Brighton was in 20 minutes and I had to rush that as well, but let me just start with telling you how Messenger bots work, what they are, and stuff like that. Messenger bots are basically a way to automate your Facebook Messenger chats. Normally, when you are advertising on Facebook, people will see an ad. They can click on it and then a lead form will pop up, or you will be redirected to the website, to a landing page, where you can leave your telephone number and stuff like that, in order to get some information from the advertiser. With Facebook Messenger, it's possible to send people to the business page and to start chatting with those people. Of course, that's fully automated. You can use it to generate leads or you can make appointments right away in a Messenger chat, and the beauty of this is that it works really well. It's fast. People have the feeling that they are texting with somebody, or a company, but because of the fact that it's texting, it sounds like texting, people feel the need to react immediately. It's a really quick way to get in touch with your audience. The reason why I started to use Messenger is because of the fact that I think it's a really good platform, but also Facebook is really pushing Messenger. They are integrating Messenger with WhatsApp and Instagram as we speak. I really think that Messenger bots will be bigger and bigger. At the moment, they are releasing it as well on WhatsApp and Instagram. Yes, it's a pretty good thing at the moment. At BrightonSEO, I talked about small step-by-step guides for building Messenger bots. I think it's a good idea to name that here as well. The first step is, obviously, you decide what you want to accomplish with your Messenger bot. You don't need to make a bot just because I'm telling you. [chuckles] You really need a good idea or you need a problem that you think you can solve with Messenger bots. The second step is to draw your, let's say, dream conversation on a paper. We called it a flow. Let's say you have to write down, "Okay. What do I want the bot to say to the audience, and what are the answers that I need from the audience in order to get all the information that you need?" As soon you have drawn that on a paper, you can start building that flow in a Messenger bot tool. There are numerous tools you could use. I'm a fan of ManyChat. ManyChat is one of the biggest tools out there for Messenger bots. MobileMonkey, Chatfuel are also some big names. Then I think the most important step. Once you have decided what you want to use in your flow, and you've built a flow, you really need to test it. I see a lot of Messenger bots not working very well. I think mainly because people forget to test it. Testing the bot is really important. Once you've tested, you can start to promote your Messenger bot and start getting those results. Two ways in order to promote the bot. There are more ways obviously, but the two I think are the most popular. Advertise with it. Let the audience see an ad, and once they click on it, the chat will open. Another one, and this is also one of my favorites, it's keyword-based. You can put a post on your Facebook page, it could be an ad. It could be an organic post. As soon as somebody reacts to that, so with the Facebook comment, a chat will open and you can continue to conversate with those people in the chat. That's also a really good way to promote your Messenger bots. I think that is what Messenger bots are in a nutshell. Of course, I talked a lot about some rules which apply to Messenger bot, like the 24-hour messaging rule. I really advise to look into that. I gave some tips how to be successful with Messenger bots. I could name them pretty quick right now. You need to be conversational. You need to make sure to interact with the audience. You need to automate as much as possible. I really love the tool- how to pronounce it right, still not sure whether it's Zapier or Zapier or Zapier, but I think the majority of the marketing audience will note it too. It's a really nice tool to automate. Feed your CRM system. Get those telephone numbers. Get those email addresses from your target audience. Get those sales, basically. Was that in five minutes or--? Peter: Tell us a bit less, but that's great. I have questions. Can you give us an example of what is the best thing that you can set up if you have e-commerce shop? People should be able to check out where their packages, so tracking, or should that be selling, or--? Lars: It could be both. There are some possibilities in which you, let's say, do the track and trace for your package. There's also a thing called "one-time notification." For example, you visit a website and you see a product that you like, but it's out of stock at the moment. You could tell the Facebook Messenger page, "Hey, send me a notification once this product gets online again." As soon as that's the case the, the page could send a message to you saying, "Hey, Peter, as requested, the product you were looking for is back online. Do you want to purchase it right away with a call to action, to go through website and a product page right away? There are some possibilities. You could also work with abandoned carts. I know that, for example, we work with ManyChat, and I know that ManyChat has an integration with Shopify, for example. There are some numerous possibilities. The only thing that's really bugging me at the moment and a lot of Messenger bot builders are the rules on Facebook. Peter: Yes, that you are only able to send a message if, in the last 24 hours, the person gave you the okay to send messages. Lars: Yes, that's correct. Also, I think it was in December, 2020, yes, December, 2020, they announced some new rules. According to Facebook, it was about privacy rules, but it really didn't make much sense. We had to rebuild all our bots, and then, I think it was in the end of January or February 2021, they pushed back the rules, so we could rebuild, rebuilding our bots again. That's the power of the big company. Peter: When talking about selling on the Facebook Messenger, how important is it that you have your webshop connected with the Messenger bot? You already mentioned that ManyChat connects to Shopify, but if I have my own CMS, I know that's generally not the best idea, but should I look into Messenger bots if I know that I cannot able to connect my webshop with them or not? Lars: I think it's tricky. If you have your own CMS system, it's really difficult to degenerate sales in an automated way with Messenger bots. I think Messenger bots could work as well for you, but probably in a different way. Let's say, use it to get some traffic to your shop, use it to generate email addresses, which you could use for email automation, stuff like that. Otherwise, I think it's really difficult to connect a Messenger bot with your own CMS system. Peter: Okay. On the other hand, when we talk about bots, there are others next to the Facebook Messenger. For example, HubSpot is very big with pushing their own. Do you have any experience with them, and comparing them with Facebook Messenger, which one's better? Why? Lars: Yes, there are a lot of chat possibilities, of course. The big e-commerce sites are building their own chatbots as well. I think it's not new, but it's not that embraced by the audience at the moment. I think there will be a lot of developments ongoing for the next months and even years on chatbots. I haven't had some experience with the HubSpot bots, for example. The reason that we are purely focusing on Messenger bots at the moment is because of the integration with Facebook. When we are using the Messenger bots on Facebook, we could get all the name, the profile location, and stuff like that, the telephone number, email address, through the Facebook API, which basically means that, as soon as you send a message to my page, my page could reply with, "Hi, Peter. Is it true that this is your email address?" You basically just have to tap the email address that the Messenger bot is showing because it pulled it out of your Facebook profile in the Facebook API. That's really good benefit for using Facebook Messenger, but it makes sense. Let's say that the popularity of Facebook will decline even more, I could say. That would have some impact on Messenger bots, of course. Peter: We'll see that in the future what happens with that. I think that's it. We're on our 15-minute mark. Lars, where can people find you if they would like to talk about Facebook Messengers or any other marketing on the internet? Lars: I think Twitter is the best way to go forward. My Twitter [unintelligible 00:16:25] my name, Lars Maat. I think it will be also available in the comments and stuff like that on [unintelligible 00:16:33] will be shown. Peter: True. Lars, thank you very much for being on the podcast and talking about Facebook Messenger. Lars: Yes, thanks for having me. Peter: Have a great day and go enjoy- Lars: The bad weather? [laughs] Peter: -the bad weather. Thank you. Bye-bye. Lars: Thank you for your time. Bye-bye.

Another presentation from the Brighton SEO conference on a topic that is really new, but important for every website owner. Website accessibility is a hot topic because lawmakers all around the world are writing laws that require you to make your website accessible to people with different disabilities. Luckily, a lot of the things that you have to do will have a positive impact on your SEO. Lea is an SEO expert and understands the link between those two. You can find her on Linkedin, Twitter or on the company website. Here is the transcript of the recording: Hello, and welcome to the Time for Marketing podcast, the podcast that brings you the best marketing conference speakers and makes them sum up their presentation in five minutes. My name is Peter, and I'll be your podcast's host. This is episode number 37, and if this is your first time you're listening, please go back in the library and find the excellent guests that we had in the past, that I had in the past. There's some gold in there, because I try to find people who have evergreen content. There are excellent episodes back there. If you have other people that you can promote the podcast to, I'll be glad if you do that. I'm very glad that I have today's guest on the podcast. Lea, hello, and welcome to the podcast. Lea: Hi, thanks for having me. Peter: How is Lake Superior? Lea: It's gorgeous, as always, deep blue and angry. [laughs] Peter: Me and Lea, we talked before, and I'm very intrigued by the name of the lake at which she has the office. She was kind enough to show the lake view from her office. Lea, you are the SEO analyst at Aimclear in Minnesota US. What are you as a company, and what do you do there? Lea: We are a digital agency company, award-winning. We love our US search awards. We do everything from web development to paid and, of course, SEO, like I do. Then also with SEO, we roll in accessibility and work between the teams to make sure that we're checking things like contrast and all text and all the things from the ad side to the web dev side. Peter: For you personally, why SEO? Lea: SEO I fell in love with almost 20 years ago. I worked for a company that built websites for dealerships that sold power sports. I just really fell in love with the idea of helping those small business owners get found and sell product. When I figured out how to move the needle, it was really exciting. Then I started leading a team, and that's what we did. Then after that Aimclear was the next big challenge because I wanted to see what else I could do, so applied it and here I am. Peter: What do you do in Aimclear? What are the things that you do daily, and what are your favorite things to do? Lea: I do SEO. SEO. [laughs] I also work with accessibility to make sure that the stuff we put out is accessible to as many people as we can. That's what I spend most of my day doing. I really love it when we have a site that is not performing come in, and I get to take it by the reins and make it show up and help meet goals, sell stuff, find dealers, or find leads, and that sort of thing. Peter: Excellent. I invited you to the podcast because you had a presentation at Brighton SEO, probably my favorite marketing conference. The presentation was called Digital Accessibility and Compliance: Essential for Users and Good for SEO. Why accessibility? Lea: Why have I chosen to go down the accessibility route? Peter: Yes. Lea: Oh. Short story is, I had a really good friend that was diagnosed with ALS which is a neurodegenerative disorder that takes your ability to speak and use your arms and things like that. It's horrible. While we were helping her sell her house and move her mom into assisted living and then help her find a place to live, she'd stopped communicating with us. It was because things like Facebook's Messenger doesn't rotate, and things like, Twitter doesn't rotate. She couldn't communicate back and forth in the text messages the way we used to do it. I was really frustrated when I wasn't being communicated back to, and I was trying to help her with things, and then realize that it wasn't her, it was the software, or it was the phone, or whatever. For whatever reason, once it was mounted on her wheelchair and it was mounted at horizontal so that the fonts were big enough to read, literally things wouldn't rotate. That was the starting point. Then, from there, I realized how important SEO actually is to accessibility and how they are siblings. They're brother and sister, and you need one for the other, and vice versa. Peter: A lot of basics SEO stuff is actually also a lot of basic accessibility stuff, right? Lea: Yes. If you actually look at core web vitals, it's accessibility. If you go through the pieces of core web vitals and what they're asking us to do and how search console is notifying us, "Hey, this is too close together." These are accessibility elements right at their core. Google might call it something different, but that's what it is, and you can see it. Peter: Lea's presentation is going to get you to be in line with your local laws. It's going to help more people see you. It's going to help you be in line with Google. It's going to help you with web vitals and all of the updates that come. Whatever Lea says, has to be gold for you. Lea: I just want to open everybody's eyes because a lot SEOs thinks the elements aren't as important as they really, really are. Peter: With no further ado, here are your five minutes. Lea: My main goal is to change the perception so that SEOs and developers and designers and content creators start thinking that accessibility is about people, because a lot of times we get hung up on- they're not our customers, and that's not the truth, they have wallets, so they're your customers. We need to make sure that we're thinking about accessibility because if we're States side, we're talking about one in five people need accessibility when they're using the web. If you talking about the UK side, we're talking about 22%, which is a little bit more. There's one in five people need your site or need your app to be accessible, so that they can use it easily. Accessibility is really important because it bridges the gaps between physical disability like location, but also socioeconomic status, education, language, gender, and so many more things they can-- The list is endless. Accessibility, it focuses on people with disabilities or that have a disability, but it greatly benefits everybody around us, including our aging parents. It's really important that everybody thinks about accessibility as empowering users to use your stuff. Use your app, use your website. When we go through, and we talk about accessibility, and everybody's working to get their website to revolve around core web vitals and getting your site up to speed and making it fast and nimble, without considering accessibility, you're ignoring 10% to 15% of the global population, and in an age when we're all responsible for making money or hitting that bottom line, why would you just automatically cut off that many people? It doesn't make any sense. Since we're all in the process of meeting the core web vitals, and making sure that we don't miss any of those potential sales, because we're not ranking well, it's the same thing as working accessibility into your websites. There's basically five things to look at. If you haven't started a web accessibility site or information on your site, start by making yourself an accessibility statement and just owning up to the fact that you haven't gotten there. Make sure that you do some tests. Just try tabbing through your website and make sure you can do all the things on your website, like make a purchase, contact fuzz form, things like that. Whatever the main goals of your site or app are, see if you can do it with just having. Then, when you get down into that stuff, go use your site on your mobile. A lot of people test, test, test on their desktop, but they don't actually take their site outside and see if it's really easy to see during a sunny day, or make sure that everything's easy to click on and nothing's too small, or nothing like a pop-up as the X isn't off the screen. There's little things like that you can do. Probably the biggest thing is having people with disabilities at your table when you're making the plan. That is the biggest thing I need to advocate for because we as a group, SEOs, we don't know all the things that actually need to be done, and having people that need the assistive technology or need these elements put in place, having them at the table during the planning stage is imperative. Peter: That's it. Excellent. Lea: That's it. That's the big one. Those are the big things. Peter: How do we get people to our table, people that can tell us how they practically are using our website? I get the idea. You've done this a couple of times. What's the most practical way to do it? Lea: It literally depends on what your budget is. [laughs] As everything, right? You can hire within, hire people within to do testing and to work on your dev team, or work in your SEO team, you can do that. There are resources out there, there are companies out there that they have testing available, and it's beyond the computer. Anything that gives you a badge just because a computer tested it, said you're good to go, even the WAVE tool, which is created by the W3C, which is leading the charge and accessibility. Even if you have that, those badges really don't do anything if they don't have individual people testing in the background. Look into companies that offer accessibility testing with live humans that are going to go through your site. That'd be beautiful. Peter: When should we involve them? Should that be when we start thinking about new web page, when we start developing it, or graphics, wireframes? What is the best time to do that? Lea: Right at the beginning, because they're going to have tips for you to help you get started on the right foot, because you can go through the whole website and build it all out, and every website goes over timeline. It just does. There's always something like, "Oh, we forgot to tell you we needed a whole blog system," or, "Oh, we forgot this," or, "Oh, you know what? We really, really want it." We get those comments after things are already built, right? I can see you. Every SEO or dev person right now is calm faced, right? They all have had that experience. Having them at the beginning is really important because retrofitting rarely works. It gets really expensive, and at the end of the day, you most of the time end up scrapping the whole thing and starting over. Yes, start planning from the beginning and test, test, test all the way through. Peter: I feel that if I want to have a very accessible web page, I have to put aside all of the great ideas that my developer had, how we're going to have a unique website. I have to have the F structure and everything has to be squared, and colors have to be four different. How do you answer that? Lea: I'm not a dev, I'm definitely an SEO. I can read enough code to be dangerous and a lot of times be like, "It's broken somewhere right here." Our designers, they think about accessibility and color right from the beginning. When I see a design idea or the first mock-up, that's the first thing out of my mouth is, "Is it accessible, are all the contrasts?" Then I'll look at the colors and we'll test them because the math. A really good tip right off the bat is go look at your website. If you have gray font on a white background, people that have glasses have a hard time reading that on their mobile phone. Skipping gray font, gray font is font spam, and it isn't a good experience for anybody. Black is best. If you're doing a black background, white font is best. Make sure that that contrast is there so that it's very easy to read. From the beginning onward, you can still do really beautiful sites. Our designers and developers are doing really beautiful sites that are accessible, because we're starting at the beginning. Peter: Okay. Yes, probably start at the beginning is the same way. Linking accessibility to SEO. How does that work? Lea: Okay. Accessibility when you go through the W3's website. The W3C, the World Wide Web Consortium, right? They have the w3.org/wai. WAI, it stands for Web Accessibility Initiative. That part of the website takes you through everything. Accessibility is related to alt text, because if you have really great alt text that actually explains the image or the reason for the image, that also helps with search. We know that. We know that if you do alt text that images help. We know that Google is moving more and more and more towards image in the SERPs. Because we're doing more and more images in the SERPs, we need to make sure that those images are relevant to the content. You can do beautiful design elements, but then we just mark them as an alt. The things that would rank it would be make sense and ask yourself, "Are my users searching an image search for this content or for this information?" Then make sure that your alt text is relevant to what they were likely searching. That's one. Accessibility relates to SEO through headlines. A lot of people, there's a lot of websites out there, where they think that H1 is just to make big, pretty font, and so there's multiple H1s on the homepage. abc.go, the ABC News station's website, that entire homepage is nothing but H1s because it's just-- Peter: It's good for SEO. Lea: It's not. [laughs] It's not. It's really horrible for people that are going through and doing the use kit. My computer, I have set up to go headline to headline. People using their keyboard to navigate versus a mouse, because, say, they have low vision or no vision, then they will do Ctrl and H for next headline and they will pop through and listen to the headlines to get to the story they want to listen to or read. Those headlines, if they're in improper order, they're sending people all over. It doesn't make any sense and they're going to bounce off your site. Again, remember, it's one in five, need accessibility. You're really limiting the number of people to your site. Those are just a couple of the ways that it is related, but they're pretty big ways. Peter: Very important. I'm really happy when I get people talk about things that I haven't really thought about, talked about. Lea: Thought about? Yes. Peter: Yes, that word. Getting something new to the podcast is great. Lea, thank you very much for that. If people want to talk to you about accessibility or SEO, where can they find you? Lea: You can hop onto aimclear.com and reach out through the Contact Us form and they'll connect us. That's probably the easiest way. Otherwise, you can find me on Twitter, Lea Scudamore. Just no H on Lea, it's just L-E-A. Three letters, really easy. Peter: I'll add that into the show notes so people can find you there. Lea: Yes, so you can find me there, too. Peter: All right, excellent. Lea, thank you very much. Do you ever go and swim in the Lake Superior, and does that make you superior? Lea: It doesn't make me superior, but it is a great time. Peter: I'll do that once. Lea: Yes, please. Please come. Please come to Duluth and come hang out at the lake with us. Come in mid-to-late June, beginning of July, because we're still talking snow here right now. Peter: See, this is why I was yesterday at the Croatian seaside where we had 20 degrees Celsius. We were almost able to go to the sea, but in shorts and stuff. This is why we go to Croatia. Croatia is great. We're just rambling, I'm rambling. Lea, thank you very much to be in the podcast. Have a great Monday. Lea: You, too. Thank you so much. Peter: Bye-bye. Lea: Bye.

This is a free two-part episode of Marketing BS. My guest today is Peter Fader, professor of marketing at the Wharton School at University of Pennsylvania. Peter was one of my early marketing mentors and I loved this interview. This is Part 2 of the interview where we dive in deeper to the ramifications of Peter's signature research around “Buy until you Die”.You can subscribe to the podcast in your player of choice here: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed (for premium episodes).TranscriptEdward: This is part two of my interview with Professor Peter Fader. Today we're going to dive into signature research Buy Till you Die. Peter, can you start by explaining what this idea is?Peter: Yeah. That sounds really weird. Buy Till you Die. What's up with that? As we discussed briefly yesterday, it's not a model that I invented. In fact, I was actually against even trying it in the first place. The idea is that if you look at the way customers behave—it's not just customers—if you look at the way that repeated decision-makers make repeated decisions over time. I'll give you a wide range of examples as we go on. There's this remarkably consistent pattern. I'll stop short of calling it universal, but it's so robust, it's so common, that we should treat it that way. Yes, we should acknowledge exceptions, but they don't happen that often.The idea is this. Here's the analogy that I could tell, think about it in the case of a customer making repeat purchases of a particular brand or product. They're basically flipping two coins. Every day, you're going to flip coin number one, the buy coin. Will I buy this thing or not today? Simple as that, but they're also flipping the die coin. When that coin comes up heads, all that means is okay, fine, I'm still alive, I could flip the buy coin. It doesn't mean I will buy but it means I can at least contemplate it. But when that bad boy comes up tails, I'm gone, and I'm gone for good.That's why we call it Buy Till you Die. There's no coming back. There's no resuscitation. You just buy things for a while, and not necessarily at a very steady regular cadence, but you do have an underlying rate and undying propensity to buy things, let's say once a month.I don't know that you going to buy it once a month, but on average, you going to buy it about 12 times a year, but then something happens. I even no longer have a need for this particular product. I move away. You're no longer tracking me. Perhaps I really do die. I don't know, and then that rate, boom, drops to zero. It sounds really artificial. It sounds harsh. It sounds unrealistic, and I don't argue with any of that. I pushed back against it myself. When you put it up against actual data, and you allow these two coins to vary, it's remarkable how well it can capture, explain, and offer useful diagnostics about repeat purchasing behavior or, again, repeat decisions of almost any sort, and we'll dive into some of those almost bizarre examples.Edward: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about, you said right at the beginning, there are some exceptions, but they're very rare. What would be an example of an exception where this doesn't apply to you?Peter: If you have some product or service where early on your customers either don't fully understand it, they can't use it as usefully as they can. Maybe some of the use cases for it don't emerge until later on, there might be some other complementary products or some changing behaviors. You might find people not just buying at the steady rate and dropping off, but there will be some cases—not just a person, but a whole cohort of people—will actually increase their purchasing for a while. That can happen, but it will level off and it will start to go down.Eventually, the Buy Till you Die will kick in, but sometimes it might take a while. If we started with that theory of going in, we might understate things is. There could be lots of other little twists there. I don't want to get too technical about it.For instance, it could be other changes in the marketplace itself, whether it's promotions that the company does, changes in competition, changes in the macroeconomy, that could make things a little bit less rigid than pure Buy Till you Die, and commercially, we can account for all of that. We have our basic core model, but then we can bring in some of these other situations and bells and whistles to make it just a bit more flexible, and sometimes it's very important to do that.Edward: Are there industries where it doesn't apply like church attendance or travel to Florida? Are there things where that radically different than just like purchasing all of Amazon or it doesn't work? What are those crazy things do?Peter: It's so funny that you mentioned church attendance because that is exactly the domain where this model was first dreamed up. I kid you not, Don Morrison who was a professor at Columbia at the time and then moved to UCLA. He's recently retired but is he just an interesting guy. He dreamed up this model literally while he was sitting in church in the Upper West Side in New York. He was looking at some empty pews and saying Mr. and Mrs. Smith, sit over there.They missed this week, but you know what, they're often sporadic about their attendance, so that's okay, but Mr. and Mrs. Jones, they usually sit over there and they never miss church. The fact that they're not here this week, gets me worried about it. I wonder if they're ever coming back. He actually dreamed up this model, and then did the math behind it in church, and then applied it to lots of other settings like that, whether it's nonprofits. Whether it's event attendance, all kinds of things, works really, really well there.Almost any setting where people are making repeated decisions to do something, whether there's a purchase involved or not. It might be watching a particular media like we've applied these models to Hulu. Whether it's visiting a website. Whether it is making a purchase. Whether it's posting social media content. It's just remarkable how well this simple model can characterize forecast behavior.Edward: Where is the resistance of the idea? You've been working on this stuff for decades, and yet I don't feel that it's like inundated the popular consciousness of business, even among experts in business and people who are the gurus of this stuff. Where's the resistance coming from?Peter: From lots of different sides, especially when we talk about marketing. Yesterday, we were talking about how I have this heightened respect for the finance people. Even though I'm a marketer, there's a lot of BS that goes on in marketing.When I bring these models forward, a lot of people will say, well, that might work well for company A, but our company is different, our practices are different, our customers are different, and besides, we're constantly being disrupted. We're constantly changing.Marketers will come up with all kinds of excuses not to have some formal, regular, predictable characterization of customer behavior. I can go to them and say, give me some data. I'll show you how well it works. I don't even, you know what, you only give me half the data. We'll hold out the other half, and we'll show you how well the forecasts work, and this is what I've been doing for decades, and they'll still push back.They'll say, okay, you know what, you can go talk to the nerds and analytics, but I have a business to run here. I need to focus on the brand. I need to focus on which celebrity we want for our Super Bowl ad, and they just don't want to be bothered with this technical stuff, but it wasn't till we commercialize it through Zodiac, which we spoke a little bit about yesterday.Especially now that we're starting to win over CFOs and other finance people who can see how well these models will help them do their job, and they are willing to trust models. They are willing to look at forecasts and not only accept, but look for regularities in the marketplace. That's been very, very, very helpful. Again, once the CFO accepts something, it makes it much easier to get the CMO on board as well, but sometimes they're still will be resistance. That's one of the reasons why I've been writing a lot besides founding the companies.One of the things that we haven't touched on is all of these kinds of books that I've been writing. All these books on customers' centricity, that are just basically a façade, a motivation, a Trojan horse, to get people to accept the models, to get people to care, to get people of want to run them, to get people to trust the outputs from them.Writing these books on customer centricity has also been very helpful, but again, sometimes companies will say, okay, okay, okay, I'm with you, how do we do this? Then we'll start to bring in the models, and then their eyes glaze over once again. It's hard. It's getting easier, but it's no guarantee.Edward: Can you give some examples of why it matters? Now I have these models, the models predict my future customer purchases far more accurately than anything before. My lifetime value of my customers could be different now. What does it actually change? Now I'm a CMO running my business, and I'm trying to figure out my next Super bowl ad. What is it going to change and what I'm actually doing on a day to day basis?Peter: Yeah. There are some enormous implications that pop right out of the models. One of them is summarized pretty well in the subtitle of my first book. The book is called Customer Centricity, which doesn't really mean anything, but the subtitle, Focus On The Right Customers For Strategic Advantage.There's really three messages there. Message number one is that not all customers are created equal, you better not talk about the customer, and you better not focus on the average customer because they're wildly different from each other. Thing number two is that the customers on the right tail of the distribution, they're not only more valuable than most of your customers, they're orders of magnitude more valuable. I mean, there's, wow, are they good? Wow, are they going to continue to be good? Thing number three is, there are ways that we can build our business around them. Let's really focus on those very, very valuable customers. Again, I'm talking about projected value. Not just historical value, although the two might line up with each other. Let's say what makes them different. How do they use and talk about our products differently from the average soso customers? What other services can we surround them with? How do we acquire more customers like them and what are we willing to pay to do so? If we can build our business around those really good customers, we can make more money in a sustainable, defendable, ethical way than just trying to play it right down the middle, saying, will our average customer find this product or message appealing? It's wildly different than the usual way that people go to market, but the models strongly support it. That's why I spent a lot of time racing, okay, you got the models fine, but let's really talk about these implications, and they really matter.It's been very gratifying to see a number of companies—I wish there were more—but a number of companies waking up smelling the lifetime value and starting to make decisions accordingly.Edward: Is that the opposite of what Byron Sharp would say? Because Byron Sharp says, I think that your loyalty is effectively a function of your market share, and the way to get more loyal customers is just to get more customers and some percentage will be loyal. As you get more market share, your loyalty increases, and your double jeopardy law applies. Do you argue against that or is it a supplement to that?Peter: It's a supplement. I'm glad you phrase it that way because pretty much everything that Byron Sharp, and of course, his original role model Andrew Ehrenberg said, 90% of that stuff is correct. Even there, it's going against the grain of conventional wisdom.I am just adding an extra layer on top of it. I agree with the notions that you just described, the double jeopardy law, the duplication of purchase law. If your listeners aren't familiar with it, and that means that they're not listening to you enough, because I know you do a good job of talking about it.Byron and company don't go quite far enough. I mean that in two ways. Number one, they assume that the models that they build, the fancy word for them would be the Dirichlet Multinomial Model. They assume that it's stationary. They assume that it's static. They assume that yes, there's the heterogeneity, but people don't change over time, and they do. They do in the way that we've been describing, Buy Till you Die, that there will be some non-stationary.There will be some worsening of customers, and it's important to capture that. When we add that extra layer in, it does not take away from double jeopardy, it just adds another light to it. Here's the other part is that, again, Byron and company acknowledge that customers are heterogeneous, but they refuse to acknowledge that some of those customers in the right tail are so, so, so, so, so good that if we put a little bit of extra attention on them, that we can do better than just trying to be everybody's best friend. All these things fit together, and I could get into lots more technical detail with it. Again, I believe everything that Byron says but he's leaving money on the table, by not allowing behavior change over time, and by not fully exploiting heterogeneity as much as I do. His points about, you still need to focus on mass marketing, and you still need to come up with products that are broadly appealing, I actually do believe all of that stuff. It's just that we want to put a disproportionate amount of attention for the care feeding and acquisition of those extra special customers.Edward: I think I've totally bought in on to the acquisition side of things. I think more acquisition is always great. My concern a little bit is about you have these customers who are really, really, really good customers for you already. To go and give them additional incentives to go and buy more, at a certain point, the really good customers are almost spending all their wallets within the category with you already. They're already super loyal. How do you shift them to become even more loyal? Am I missing the point?Peter: I got two words for you. First of all, and I never said the word incentives. That's your word, not mine. We got to find other ways to be crass about it, to squeeze more money out of them. Here are my two words, premium services. It's as simple as that.You think about something like a LinkedIn premium. At first, there was a lot of pushback about a lot of the features and functions of LinkedIn premium offered. Folks at LinkedIn were saying, well, man, most of our customers don't want that stuff. Why should we offer it?Well, the fact is, there are those right tail customers who are so good and use you so much, and use you so differently than everybody else. If we can come up with products and services that meet their fairly idiosyncratic needs and get them to pay for them, then we can make more money than just trying to sell them the same stuff over and over and over.I look at something like Twitter. I'm a big power user of Twitter. I know you are, too. There's no question that I would pay $10 a month for all kinds of features and functions that most people couldn't care less about, to edit my tweets, to have more control over my timeline, to have more visibility, and whatever. There's a whole bunch of things that power users would want to use, but companies like Twitter, Facebook, and so many others are just too chickenshit to go out there and make these premium services a priority.Jack Dorsey has made some noise about it recently but gets to it. That your heavy users want to pay more money, as long as they're getting good value for it. I think that's the key. It's not just giving them incentives. It's not giving them freebies, because you're right. They're going to buy from you anyway. It's getting to pay for more stuff that most customers wouldn't want.Edward: Is the opportunity more in a product than it is in marketing? It should be helping to product team more than the marketing team?Peter: It's a little bit of both. There's no doubt that we need to come up with products and services that are uniquely appealing to those customers will help us acquire more like them, but it is also in the messaging.Instead of just going to an ad agency and saying, hey, ad agency, come up with a fun ad. I look at what some companies doing in my favorite company on these lines would be EA, the game company, Electronic Arts. They will look at their most valuable customers every day, by the way. They're updating lifetime value for every single one of their multi-billion customers around the world. They'll look at the most valuable ones and say let's look at how they're playing a certain game. Whether it's Battlefield, Madden Football, or SimCity, and let's find out how our power users are using the game, talking about the game, what things they're doing in the game, and let's feature those kinds of aspects in our next set of ads.Let's change our messaging as well, to make other customers aware of some of these features and some of these uses because maybe they'll find that appealing, or maybe it will help us acquire new customers, who will then become power users themselves.There are ways to take some of these forward-looking metrics and models and use them in messaging as well, but you're right. It is more about either developing products and services or partnering with other firms. Maybe we won't even make any money on it, but if we can go to our best customers and say, we're going to surround you with all of these different sources of value, we're going to build a whole ecosystem for you. That's the way to lock them in and acquire more like them.Edward: Can we do most of that without your models? I imagine most marketers know who their best customers are, or they can find that out fairly simply without a great deal of math. And then once they know who their best customers are, they can then go and build products and services for them. They can go try to acquire more of those customers. At what point do they need to have a Buy Till you Die model to do that?Peter: It's an excellent point and the answer is yes. Let me elaborate. I'm so obsessed with these models, not only because of their practical value but even just because of their mathy elegance. That maybe I get into the model too much, and I used to really believe as I was writing the books and founding Zodiac that I can just give you the CLV magic wand, that money will just come raining down from the sky.You're right that the models are just a means to an end, and you can actually come up with some decent proxies for lifetime value. It might be based on historical value, it might be based on something like Net Promoter Score.There could be all kinds of proxies that aren't quite as accurate, aren't as predictive, aren't as precise as the models themselves, but they still do a pretty good job of sorting out who the good customers are from the not so good ones.The harder part is, first of all, just to look for that. It's just to say that's what we got to do is to sort our customers out. To develop the insights, the capabilities, the organization, the corporate culture, to allow us to do all the things that I was just talking about a minute ago. That's the hard part, and absolutely, you could get away with some imperfect proxies of lifetime value, as long as you have the capability to do all the other stuff that I mentioned before.You're right. You don't necessarily start with the models. You start with the mindset, you start with the tactics. You start with the organization and the messaging, and then once you're comfortable that you can do that, okay. Now let's bring the models in.Edward: To refine it and make it better. If you're a CMO, and you're looking to make initial steps to move in this direction, because, again, at any large organization, we know that trying to change radically is very difficult. What's the Trojan horse to get this thing started?Peter: Yes. I come in lots of different ways. I mentioned the books before, so let's start the sea level, and say the sky is falling, you're doomed to fail. It's going to be an utter catastrophe unless you repent and follow me. I'm overstating a little bit there, but this basically says there are fundamentally different strategies that you haven't thought about before. They're going to really celebrate the heterogeneity of your customers that can help you make more money. Let's start trying a big picture, like what are the limitations of traditional growth strategies? What are the windows to some of these new ones?There's all that and then there's the data. Again, I've glorified the models maybe too much. I'm in the process of writing my brand new book, with my partner in crime, Bruce Hardy, and yet a new partner in crime Michael Ross, interesting guys. This new book is going to be called The Customer Base Audit: The first step on the journey to customer's centricity. Before we have any models, before we have any forecasts, before we look forward at all, let's just look at our historical data, stuff that's right there at our fingertips. To understand a lot of these ideas that I've been talking about, about how customers differ from each other, about how they differ over time and about how they differ from each other and how they differ over time.Let's take a look back and just understand the basic patterns, but do so in a way that's both simple, but also very sea level motivating. Let's just get you to appreciate the goal that's in them their hills and to really motivate the strategies, the models, and all that thing.I'm coming at it every which way. Whether it's looking at historical data, whether it's writing books, whether it's focusing on finance, whether it's looking at other bizarre use cases of the models, I'm coming at it from every angle, eventually hoping that the message gets through and that the company says, you know what, let's try it out. Again, it's a long, long road ahead, but it's been working reasonably well over the last few years.Edward: When is that book going to be up here?Peter: Well, we're about halfway done with it. Actually, I just sent a revised proposal to my publisher, Wharton School Press. Sometimes, I'm going to guess, the middle of 2021, but then if any of your listeners are interested, I could probably send at least a sneak preview, a quick overview or even a sample table of contents, because we're really interested in these ideas, and the way that it really helped us build a bridge, from the big broad, almost qualitative strategies, to the technical forward-looking models to really complete the whole picture.I think is going to really make a difference, and this is, by the way, is the first place I've spoken about it. You're getting an exclusive, and I hope people find it appealing.Edward: I hope so too. Thank you so much for being on the show today, Peter. Before you go, can you talk to me about your quake book? What book really changed the way you thought about the world, and you can't use one of your own.Peter: I wish it was some mathy kind of thing, and there's no doubt that some of the books, papers, or journals that I've read as a professor have helped me out. But one book that makes me say whoa, and then I go back and read again and again and again, it's going to sound really strange, is Breakfast of Champions by Kurt Vonnegut.I'm sure that a lot of your listeners might have seen that book years ago. Go back and read that book again. It's astonishing, just the creativity, just the mind-blowing alternative worlds that Vonnegut creates. I found that so inspirational, just in how I tried to think that there are no limits, and now I think that I can be just a wild creative guy and get away with it. Besides the literal story there, there are so many lifelong metaphors that are taken from that book. I'm going to sound really strange, but I can't recommend that one enough.Edward: Thank you, Peter. This has been fantastic. I would love to have you on again.Peter: It's always a pleasure talking to you and I look forward to the next opportunity. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

This is a rare two-part set of free episodes of Marketing BS. My guest today is Peter Fader, professor of marketing at the Wharton School at University of Pennsylvania. Peter was one of my early marketing mentors and I loved this interview. In Part 1 we talk about Peter's career as a marketing academic and how he came to his signature theories around how one understands the value of a company's customer base. Tomorrow we will dive deeper into those theories.You can subscribe to the podcast in your player of choice here: Apple, Sticher, TuneIn, Overcast , Spotify. Private Feed (for premium episodes).TranscriptEdward: This is Marketing BS. My guest today is Wharton Professor, Peter Fader. I consider Peter one of my founding mentors for helping me understand how marketing really works. His most important contribution to marketing, in my opinion, is that you can model future customer purchases by assuming that your customer base is made up of a heterogeneous group of customers—each with their own intrinsic purchase rate and churn rate. And that those same models can be used in radically different businesses and industries to create extremely accurate predictions. Most importantly, because these predictions are accurate, it should influence what your actual actions are to grow your business sustainably.Today, we're going to talk about Peter's career and his intellectual path to this important idea. Tomorrow we'll dive into the idea itself and how it can be used for marketers in practice.Peter, can you start by talking a little bit about how you first started exploring the idea of Buy ‘Til You Die?Peter: Sure thing, my pleasure to do so. It's funny because that characterizes my career. That's what I'm most famous for. But (A) it's not my idea, and (B) it didn't even come to me until long after I was a full professor here at Wharton.I've been building all kinds of different models of customer behavior. How many customers will we acquire, how long will they stay, how many purchases will they make, and all that sort of thing. All the time looking at different data sets, thinking about different business settings, and saying, what would be a story? What would be a model that could capture and then project that kind of behavior?Back in 2001—again, I had been a professor here for 14 years already—I was building a model to capture a phenomenon that we see all the time. They did a customer-slow-down as they gained tenure with the company. It's pretty universal. I built a bespoke model to capture that and it was good, it was fine. I got the thing published. But along the way, one of their viewers was saying, you want to benchmark your model against this Buy ‘Til You Die model. Something that was invented back in 1987. But it was really technical, it was really obscured, so I thought it was an unfair request.I went to the editor of the journal and said, don't make me do that. Don't make me benchmarking that old obscure thing. And the editor agreed that I didn't have to. But I wasn't sure he would. I actually did benchmark the models that I was developing against these older ones and found that the old ones were much, much better.It doesn't show up in that paper. I then decided to devote the rest of my life, or at least the next 18 plus years, to exploring that other model—Buy 'Til You Die. Why it's so good, different variations of it, different applications for it, different motivations, and different managerial stories around it. That's basically all I've been doing since then. Taking someone else's model and running with it, calling attention to it, and finding some reasonable success with it.Edward: When did you realize that it was close to a fundamental law and not something that just might explain some of the data some of the time?Peter: Because I took it and started applying it to lots of other data sets. Again, this was more out of curiosity than necessity. That's just what we do as scholars which is just try things out. I wasn't only looking at the breadth of applications, I was looking at the robustness even for any one application. The idea that we don't have to have a long data set, and even if we have a shorter and shorter data set, if there is missing data, or if we don't have the same inputs that we get pretty much the same results.It started convincing me that this is more than just a cute model. It started convincing me that this is actually reality. I know that it's not—and I'm going to lose all credibility with you and your listeners here—but I'd like to make an analogy between this. Brace yourself—the theory of relativity. We all view that the theory of relativity, E=mc2, and all that stuff, we treat it as if it's true. It's not. It's just a theory. It's just a model. But the thing is it's so robust and explained so many different phenomena, even phenomena that weren't observable 100 years ago when Einstein was putting these ideas out there. But we just keep seeing it “proven” over and over and over again that we just treat it as truth.Now, I don't want to say that these BTYD models have anywhere near the implications, the importance, the cosmic explanations as relativity. But I think they're similarly robust and people would just be better off viewing them as if they were true instead of spending so much time pushing back and saying why their situation is different, why the implications don't apply, and why the world is changing. Let's just accept it as truth and our life as managers would be much easier and much more successful.Edward: But I want to go back a little bit to the path that got you here. I have a theory that things people do when they're 12-14 years old affect them for their entire lives. Where were you passionate about at that age? How did those things affect your later career?Peter: Oh my goodness. Wow, a bunch of different things, all really nerdy. The one that was most normal would have been baseball. At that time—I'm embarrassed to admit this, you're getting all this bad stuff out of me, Ed—I was a huge Yankee fan. I've repented since then. I've seen the folly of my ways. I was really, really, really into baseball statistics. Unfortunately, this was before anyone had heard of Bill James, sabermetrics, or Moneyball. All of that stuff was still years, years later. But I was almost—I don't want to say—inventing some of those kinds of things but I was thinking very much along those lines. How can we take the game of baseball and break it down into its underlying components, understand those things, and really focus on the underlying story rather than just the overall observable statistics? I was obsessed over that as I still am today. The other thing is kind of weird. I've always had an obsession with dollar bills with interesting serial numbers. Mom would come back from the grocery store and I would immediately go through her dollar bills. I would say, this one on a 0-100 scale, this one gets a 60. This one, maybe a 40. This one here, that's a 95. I'm going to keep that one. I was just always obsessed with interesting numbers, interesting serial numbers.Finally, when the whole internet thing started, I bought the domain name coolnumbers.com, and still own it today. That's all that site does is you put in any 8-digit number like a dollar bill serial number and it will tell you on a 0-100 scale how cool it is on my own quirky, arbitrary, don't even try to figure out universal coolness index. It's surprisingly popular. There's a lot of other nerdy people out there, or at least with too much time on their hands. That's the kind of stuff that I was doing. Just looking for patterns in data, but without any particular purpose or societal benefit. I'm really lucky that I finally found some meaningful purpose.Edward: I'm glad that you're working for good and not evil because I think on the website, you can enter your Social Security numbers. I'm sure people are doing that every day as well.Peter: Well, right now you can only put on 8-digit numbers. I'm waiting for some kind of undergrad or someone else. Maybe one of your listeners with too much time on their hands to help me flesh out cool numbers. You could deal with, let's say, a Social Security number, a 9-digit zip code, or whatever else. I got the algorithms all worked out. I just need someone to do all the coding.But thank goodness, I haven't wasted that much more time on it over the last 20 years. I had better things to do.Edward: You went to college for mathematics, but then you did a Ph.D. in marketing. Why did you switch?Peter: It wasn't my choice. There are very few people who say, Mommy, I want to be a marketing professor. It doesn't come up on career day when you're in middle school. It's an interesting story by itself because I indeed was just a solid math major. All I liked doing was crunching numbers, playing around with integrals, and all that sort of stuff. I didn't know what I would do for a living. I figured either end up as an actuary—calculating risks for insurance companies, I'd go to Wall Street, or maybe I'd go work for the NSA and break codes or whatever else.I was exploring all of these different options until this one professor, this marketing professor, her name is Leigh McAlister. She's still very active today at the University of Texas now, not MIT where I first met her. She came to me one day back in 1982 and said, you ought to be a marketing professor. You ought to get your Ph.D. in marketing. I looked at her and said, you ought to get your head checked because I'm a math guy, I'm not going into marketing. But she laid out this vision—again, keep in mind this was 1982, that's like 500 years ago.Edward: That's before finance was even getting into mathematics, let alone marketing.Peter: But she laid out this picture of what marketing would become. She was exactly right. That there will come a day when we'll be able to tag and track individual customers, know what they're doing, and then get some sense of which message we should send to which customer at which time. We're going to need rock-solid math underneath all that to figure it out, to make these decisions, and to evaluate those decisions. I didn't believe her, but she was very persuasive and she forced me to get a Ph.D. She literally—I'm not exaggerating—forced me to take this job offer at Wharton. I had offers from lots of other good schools, but she said, “Wharton is the place for you. It will have the people, the resources, the culture to let you pursue your quantitative passions in this domain.” And here I am. Now, this is year 34 on the faculty, calling her up every 6 months or so, saying thank you, thank you, thank you. She did change my life by pushing me in a direction that, again, I would have never imagined, and even actively resisted at that time. But boy was she right on every one of these dimensions. My whole life is just paying it forward to her in every way possible.Edward: If you hadn't met her, where do you think you would have ended up?Peter: Either a Wall Street firm or again maybe an actuarial firm. I took the first bunch of exams that actuaries take. I did an internship with an insurance company. I could see that there was some alignment there, but at the same time, it's not an industry that lends itself to creativity.I want to come up with new models, new explanations, new stories, just new methods. Whereas in insurance, even on Wall Street, and most of these other domains, it's once you have the way of doing things. It's just shut up and do it. I would have ended up doing one of those kinds of things. Maybe I would have been happy, who knows? I like to make myself happy no matter what's going on.But nothing could make me happier than the path that I followed. To have the colleagues, the resources, the incentives to come up with new stuff, and then brilliant students, including people like yourself who have taken some of those ideas and run with them, whether in academic directions or in commercial directions. I've just been super lucky to ride their coattails academically and commercially to find success both ways.Edward: Long before Buy ‘Til You Die, your first significant research was into strategies in a generalized prisoner's dilemma. What exactly did you find?Peter: Wow. That's a blast from the past. My dissertation at MIT—very few people know this because I tend to focus on all these predictive models of customer behavior and so on. But my dissertation couldn't have been more different.Indeed, I was looking at the prisoner's dilemma. I'm assuming that many of your listeners are familiar with it already. If not, they can search for it. There's so much out there on it. There's a lot of people who have been trying to “solve the prisoner's dilemma,” coming up with strategies that would be very effective in this very simple two by two game. Do I take the temptation to rat out that person, cut-price, or do the nasty action; or will I be good?The problem with the basic prisoner's dilemma, as they just implied, is that it has two players—me against you, and only have two alternatives because each of us does the aggressive tactic or the kind of nice tactic. Solving it, in that case, is fine but not very practical because in the real world, there's going to be lots of other complications, and let's just focus on two of them.Number one, there's going to be multiple players out there. There's going to be three or more firms. In fact, just moving from two to three is a giant leap forward because all of a sudden, if person number three does the nasty thing, what do I do? Do I wait for you—the nice guy, or do I respond to the nasty one? It's very, very complicated and we start getting all confused because if I react to him, then you react to me, and you get into this downward spiral.Number two, there can be multiple alternatives. Not just do you do the thing or not, but it can be shades of gray. You can be setting prices or discounts or even oil output levels if you think about OPEC. The generalized prisoner's dilemma that I put forth had a continuous range of alternatives. It was a price-setting and three players. It generalized, it built upon all the basic ideas of the textbook, two by two prisoner's dilemma. But it added all kinds of interesting complications, yet it still lent itself to some surprisingly robust strategies. Strategies that I explored in my dissertation. We've seen an interesting range of examples in business, in sports, and in life itself, where some of these strategies do tend to play out and lead to effective outcomes.Edward: In addition to your research, you've co-founded a few companies. Talk to me about Zodiac and how that happened.Peter: This goes right back to something I was saying a few minutes ago, which is riding the coattails of brilliant students both in the academic direction as well as the commercial. It's building out this Buy ‘Til You Die model, and they're really good. They worked really well. But most of the time, I was either just working on academic stuff to try to come up with new tweaks of them or just going to companies and trying to give them the academic version saying, here you ought to use this. Here, this model is good for you. Here's the code. Here's the spreadsheet. Here's the technical note. Here are some case studies. But the problem is, companies either found it a little bit too academic, or the kinds of data they were looking at was just so messy, so complex, or so large that the academic versions just weren't quite right for them. Back in late 2014, I had a conversation with one of my brilliant undergraduates. He basically had some ideas to make the models much more practical—to be able to run faster, to be able to run just much more efficiently. Brought in a couple of other folks, and we founded this company. First, we called it CLV Metrics—Customer Lifetime Value Metrics—kind of a lame name. And then we decided, you know what, we're getting such good traction on it. Let's make it real. We brought in some venture capital money. We started hiring a whole team. We changed the name to Zodiac, and it was a wonderful success.We work with a wide variety of firms. Whether it's retailers, travel and hospitality, telcos, gaming, pharmaceuticals, or lots of different B2B applications and different kinds of services. Just applying this Buy ‘Til You Die model in a wide range of scenarios and finding all kinds of success, all kinds of interesting tactical-use cases—it was really great. But of course, talking in the past tense, because in 2018 one of our clients came along and said, we want it all, and that client was Nike. We sold to Nike in March 2018, which again, was a wonderful outcome by itself, but also a tremendous validation for the usefulness, not just the academic interest in this, but the commercial usefulness of the models.Edward: We're going to go more into the usefulness of it tomorrow on our second podcast. You later, though, founded another company called Theta Equity Partners and this was different from Zodiac, correct?Peter: Yes and no. On one hand, there's the no part which is, at the very core, this very similar set of models, this Buy ‘Til You Die model. But the motivation and the main use case couldn't be more different. Back in the Zodiac days, besides working with lots of different companies that I described before, one of our clients was a private equity firm. They weren't that interested in figuring out which message to send to which customer. All they wanted to do was to say, listen, can you come up with the projected value of each and every customer, add all that stuff up, and tell us that number because we're thinking of buying that digitally native women's cosmetics company.We figured the best way to judge its valuation isn't through the usual top-down multiple approach, but it's from the bottom-up—how many customers will we acquire, how long will they stay, how much will they spend. That's what we did—the idea of customer-based corporate valuation. After we sold Zodiac to Nike along with one of my Zodiac co-founders, Dan McCarthy, we co-founded Theta Equity Partners. That's all we're doing is customer-based corporate valuation, working with private equity firms, family offices. I'm working with a lot of companies directly just to help them understand, unlock, and fully leverage all of that customer value. It's less about the marketer. It's just less about the tactics. It's more about finance, valuation, corporate governance, big strategic decisions, and again, it's been great. The models work well. It's probably an even more receptive audience—the finance people than the marketing people. Once you go over the finance people, then it becomes very easy to win over the marketing people as well.Edward: It's interesting, 38 years or so after you left finance to go into marketing, you're right back where you started with finance.Peter: I have to admit, I feel like a fish out of water because it's not really my home. It's not my core domain. I've been learning a lot over these last couple of years and I have tremendous respect for the people in finance and more and more every day. I can bring them a tool that they don't have through these models and through these perspectives. But the ways that they deploy it, some of these are very clever, smart, resourceful things they do, you could see why they are the big dog in most organizations and why people respect, maybe even fear finance much more than they do marketing. Because my objective is to bring them together and to get marketing and finance on the same level using the same models for strategic as well as tactical purposes, and we'll talk more about that.Edward: Peter,what was the biggest failure point in your career? What's the biggest mistake that you made?Peter: There's a difference between failure and mistakes. Let me talk about one of each. Maybe the saddest moment in my career—the one night I literally cried myself to sleep—was losing the Napster case. As I've said many times now, I'm interested in a broad variety of applications. I spent a lot of time in the ‘90s and early 2000s working with or maybe fighting with the music industry—there are amazingly good patterns there. It's very predictable. It's one of the better sectors if you want to apply the models, but it's a sector where they don't apply the models.Long story short, I got caught up in the Napster case, the original Napster, an original file sharing service that changed everything. I was with the good guys. Napster is trying to make the case why that file sharing service is the greatest possible thing for the music industry and making that case why it's good and why it will bring in lots of money. I wrote this whole long statement, did all this research about it back in the glorious summer of 2000, but Judge Marilyn Hall Patel, she pretty much rejected everything I said. She basically said, the idea that file-sharing could be good for the industry is preposterous and any research that would draw such a conclusion must be gravely flawed. I think those are her exact words.Edward: Your conclusion was wrong regardless of your methods.Peter: Exactly right. In the end, it didn't really matter. The reason why Napster was shut down, it had nothing to do with whether it hurt or helped the industry. But the fact is, it was against the law. The law might be stupid, that's a whole other question, so it was shut down. But I took it personally. I felt that this was a true failure on my part. I let down the revolution. It wasn't a mistake. It's just that I was betting on the wrong horse.Edward: How'd that changed things? Did you change your strategies going forward because of that event?Peter: Not really. It just made me want to fight harder. It's actually interesting. I said, look, this is just wrong. We need to show the industry that they are making a terrible mistake. In the early 2000s, I spent a lot of time banging on the door of the music industry, saying, listen, let's go after this together. Let's do the research to show the circumstances under which file-sharing helps, hurts, or is neutral. Let's really understand it. Let's understand the business implications. Let's not just stop at music. Let's talk about TV, movies, publishing, and basically all areas of media and entertainment.I set up a Research Center at Wharton for the Wharton Media & Entertainment Initiative. That went nowhere. Then we got a donation to set up the Wharton Interactive Media Initiative, and that was very successful. That then morphed into the Wharton Customer Analytics Initiative, which continues to flourish today. I spent a lot of time expanding on it. One might say pivoting from the work in the music industry to try to make a difference with models and understanding of customer data. It's just that the music industry and entertainment, in general, weren't all that receptive. It's just a matter of shopping these ideas and methods around to find a more receptive audience, which we did find a lot of success with.Edward: Tell me about the iPhone.Peter: Yeah, that was a mistake. A little bit of arrogance on my part. I was big into the BlackBerry. I mean that was a transformative device. Wow. When the iPhone came along, I staked out. I went way out on a limb staking out exactly the wrong turf saying, this device will just never catch on. Look at just how different it is. Look at all the features of a BlackBerry that it lacks. I'm never shy about my opinions. Usually, they're based more on data than just pure hunches. This case, pure hunch, wrong hunch, and I basically said that this is going to go down in history as a colossal failure. And again, I wasn't shy about it.When the iPhone celebrated its 10th anniversary of just a ginormous success a couple of years ago, people went out and found some of these—the incredibly dumb things that I said as it was being launched. I'll admit it. I'm big enough to acknowledge my mistakes. That's far from the only one. But probably the one that I got in—I don't want to say trouble, there's no trouble there—the most s**t for and entirely well-deserved. Even though I'm still not a big fan of Apple—I literally have never owned a single Apple device. Again, not that I'm against them but I just like buttons. I like to press things, whatever. I've learned better than to bet against them.Edward: This has been fantastic. We're going to come back again tomorrow to talk more about Buy ‘Til You Die. Thank you so much.Peter: Sure thing. It's always good talking to you. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit marketingbs.substack.com

My guest today is Peter Morville. Peter is a pioneer in the discipline of information architecture. Among many other distinctions, he co-authored with Lou Rosenfeld Information Architecture for the World-Wide Web, the classic O'Reilly “polar bear” book on the subject. This is Peter's second appearance on The Informed Life podcast. I asked him back because I wanted to learn more about his recent call for practitioners to emancipate information architecture. Listen to the full conversation Download episode 47   Show notes Peter Morville on Twitter Semantic Studios Intertwingled.org Information Architecture: for the Web and Beyond, by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, and Jorge Arango The Informed Life episode 10: Peter Morville on Seductive Information Emancipating Information Architecture by Peter Morville Don't Think of an Elephant! by George Lakoff Sorting Things Out: Classification and its Consequences by Geoffrey C. Bowker and Susan Leigh Star Pema Chödrön Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commissions for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: Peter, welcome to the show. Peter: Hello, there. I'm very happy to be back. Jorge: Yeah. I usually start shows by asking guests to tell us about themselves, but you have the distinction of being the second repeat guest to The Informed Life podcast. The first was our friend Lou Rosenfeld, and I think it's appropriate that as the two co-authors of the polar bear book, you are two of the folks I most want to hear from. And part of the reason that I wanted to talk with you again is, when you were last on the show, you talked about what was next for you. I actually have the transcript up here and I'm going to quote back to you what you said. You said that… well, I'm going to paraphrase first, but you said that you had this not completely formed plan to buy some property and start an animal sanctuary to create a place that can be helpful to people and animals. And now I'm quoting, “and that comes from that deep questioning of what do I want to do with my remaining time here on planet earth. And while I get a lot of intellectual satisfaction from consulting with big organizations, I'm not sure as I look forward to the next 25 years or so, that that's going to fulfill my need for a real sense of purpose and meaning.” Peter: That sounds like me. Jorge: Yeah, it does, doesn't it? And now you've written a blog post where you update us on how that is going. And I'm looking forward to talking with you about that here on the show. Peter's blog post Peter: Yeah, the blog post was called “Emancipating Information Architecture.” Freeing information architecture from the shackles I helped to forge, so that we can use information architecture to free minds. That's the general gist. And on the personal side, since we last talked, we have moved from Michigan to Virginia, which is the place that we're planning to buy property. But we're currently renting, so hopefully 2021 will be the year that we buy the property and get some goats and chickens to get started. Jorge: So, I want to find out more about both of those, but why don't we start with this idea of emancipating information architecture. That's some pretty powerful language. What is keeping information architecture bound? Peter: So, in the article I take some credit or blame for that state of information architecture. And I think back on those early years in the 1990s, when Lou and I were working together to build our company, Argus Associates, and to evangelize this new practice of information architecture, and I was driven by fear. I had spent a year unemployed — sort of — and not really knowing what I wanted to do and feeling lost in the world. And then, ambition, because I had now gotten a taste of entrepreneurship and felt strongly that there was something here with information architecture that I can grow into a career. But you know, it was very dicey. We were paying the bills month-to-month early on. And so, there was a values-based side to my passion for information architecture. I was incredibly excited about the potential of the internet and then the worldwide web to enable us humans to share information all around the world and to become smarter and better. And so there was a techno-utopian side to my passion. But ultimately, I was trying to figure out, how am I going to be able to live in this world? How am I going to be able to pay the bills? So, there was a very strong orientation towards situating information architecture in the business context. How do we make money doing information architecture? How do we turn it into a job, into a field or discipline? And really, the community that grew up around information architecture was predominantly people who were figuring out how do I do this as part of my work in a business context. There were people from nonprofits and education, and there were folks who were more academic and were interested in the intellectual ideas. But 80% plus were folks who were figuring out, how do we do this as part of our work? That really is, I think, where information architecture has been centered. If you look at most writing, most conferences, it's been centered in business. Jorge: What I'm hearing here is that what you're looking to emancipate information architecture from is being bound to these business contexts. Is that right? Peter: Yeah, and I make the point in the article. It's not that information architecture isn't doing good in the business world and can't do more good. So, it's not an abandonment of business at all. But I think that there's so much potential for the ways that we think, the ways that we practice information architecture, particularly In the areas of language and classification — how we use language, how we define or design labels, how we structure and organize conceptual spaces — those skills are so useful beyond business, whether we talk about social or political or environmental areas, I think that part of what is holding us back as people are archaic words and structures: language and classification systems that we have inherited from the past that we're having a hard time getting beyond. What is different about Information Architecture? Jorge: There are other fields that think about this stuff as well. I'm thinking of George Lakoff's book, Don't Think of an Elephant! — I think that's the name of it — where he dives into this subject of labeling and distinctions in the realm of politics, specifically. What is special about information architecture? What is different about information architecture that would make it a good agent for change in this realm? Peter: Yeah. So, as I was working on the article, George Lakoff came to mind. He's one of the few people out there that I know has engaged in these issues in really interesting ways. There are also other books that come from outside of our discipline; Sorting Things Out: Classification and Its Consequences comes to mind as a fascinating exploration of the impact of language and classification in all sorts of contexts, for instance, in the kind of the hospital and nursing context. So, as I was writing this article, I was not under the impression or trying to portray the notion that we have a monopoly on these ways of thinking. In fact, in the article, the examples that I provide, one is focused on topics in and around LGBTQ+, gender and sexuality and all of the labels and classification systems around them that. And that work is being done by people who would never identify as information architects or don't even know our field exists. There's so much that we can learn from the work that people are doing out in the world. But I think that the folks who have spent the last 10-20 years thinking about information architecture, learning about information architecture, have a skillset and a talent that could be used beyond business. And I'm really trying to get our community to just at least question, “am I practicing in the contexts where I can make the greatest impact, given where I want to see the world go in the future?” For some people, the answer might be, “yes! I am super passionate about helping to grow this business, and this is what I want to do.” For other folks, they may say, “I need to do this work in order to pay the bills in a business context, but maybe I could volunteer some time and evenings or weekends to help folks work through issues around, how do we present ourselves? How do we label and organize our information so that we might be better understood, or so that we can make a bigger impact?” Jorge: When I hear you talk about the particular skills and talents of practicing information architects, what came to my mind is that information architects put these ideas of classification and distinction-making through language into action, right? It's one thing to think about it in the abstract, in theory, but we are very much practitioners making things in the world, right? Peter: Yes. Jorge: And as such, we are in a position to make these distinctions more palpable, perhaps or more tangible? Peter: Yeah. There's an interesting dance between the abstract and the tangible that we do. Very often, whether it's as in-house practitioners or consultants, we're hired more for the tangible stuff that we do. Most people are able to understand the tangible side of what we do. So, it's very often almost their own secret that the most important work that we do is pretty abstract and hard to explain. It's like, as a consultant, I go into an organization and I immerse myself in their world, in their language and classification system, in their domain, their area of expertise, their content, as well as all their challenges and goals and so forth. And I always go through this journey of initial excitement then feeling completely overwhelmed. Like, “oh my goodness, there's so much here. It's such a mess. How can I ever make a difference?” And with experience, I've built up the confidence to know I will get to the other side and I will start to come up with some models, hopefully some elegant models of how we can move forward. And the highest level, those models are sufficiently abstract that very few people appreciate them. It's when you take them to the next level and they start to become tangible and you can sort of see them, you've got a diagram or a wire frame or sketch, and people get it, and you start to get people behind this shared vision. So, I think you're right in the sense that we have that experience of grappling with the abstract stuff that's really hard to even talk about and then moving it into some tangible artifacts which then eventually move it into the world and it becomes the digital place. It's a website, it's a software application. Or in the physical world, right? It's how the grocery store is organized; it's how the airport is organized and the signage. Whether you talk about digital or physical places, then those end results start to shape how people think. So, that's the part that's interesting. We create environments that then shape people's perceptions, right? I mean, you go back to the Winston Churchill quote, if it was really him, “We shape our buildings and thereafter they shape us.” That's very true, whether you're talking about buildings or digital places or classification systems, and once people get used to a certain structure, it's hard to shift; it's hard to get people to think differently. And that's the challenge I think is interesting. But it's different in every domain. Is a website going to help make this shift or a book or do people need to be teaching this in elementary school? Where are the levers for effecting change in people's minds? Top-down vs. bottom-up structure Jorge: There's a distinction between molding information structures, structuring them, giving them shape, and spotting patterns in the ways people use these systems, that result in emergent structure. And I realize that sounds a little abstract, so I'll give you an example. The hashtag emerged in the use of Twitter. It's not something that was designed into Twitter from the get-go. And I am noticing in the world such structures coming into being, and I'll give you an example — and this one is related to what you wrote about in the article, and I'm hoping that we will get into this — but I've started seeing more and more people appending to their name, on social networks, a description of the pronouns that they want to be described with. You will usually see the name and then parentheses, “he/him,” right? And there's no space in that information system for you to describe your preferred pronouns. So, the users have kind of hacked the system by appending it to their last name field, or what have you. And that came to mind as I was reading your article, because you did get into the — I think you called it the “architecture of identity” — that we do seem to be living in a time where that is becoming more and more of an issue for folks. And I'm wondering what our role is as information architects, with regards to this top-down versus bottom-up spotting of these patterns and enabling their use in our systems. Peter: Yeah, I love that example. And I think, yeah, there's a couple of different directions to go there. One, I think that that notion of identifying patterns and then deciding whether or not to try to spread them, to embed them in infrastructure or to squash them, that is something that I think we should be more aware of our potential to play a role there. When we talk about information architecture, it's easy to think that we are the creators of structure, that it has to come out of our heads. But, as the Twitter hashtag idea suggests, many of the best innovations come from a user, one person who has an idea and tries it out and then other people see it and copy it and it starts to spread. And then, there's an interesting point there where in that case, the team at Twitter had to decide, “do we embrace this and embed it in infrastructure? Does the hashtag become part of Twitter?” And they decided, yes, right? And, the issues around pronouns are so tricky. They're difficult. I guess I'll make a confession that there have been times where I've been irritated by this kind of injecting pronouns into various contexts. Like, I was at a meeting a couple of years ago. The purpose of the meeting was really to focus on helping undocumented immigrants in Michigan. It was hosted at the University of Michigan. And at a certain point, we were all asked to introduce ourselves and to introduce our pronouns. And at an introductory meeting where we didn't even know if we were ever going to see any of these people again, it seemed like that was kind of forced into the conversation. And when I experienced that irritation, number one, I tried to moderate it, like, “hey, there's a plus here. We're really trying to make sure that as we're talking to one another and referring to one another, we're using the right words, right? We're using the words that people are comfortable with, as their identification.” But I also try to grow a little compassion for the people who are on the other side, right? The folks who have very little tolerance for the LGBTQ+ folks, because, the thing that's really interesting in here is I think that there's this little part of our brains that — I'm sure there's a spectrum in terms of like how active this is across the population — but there's a little part of our brains that just gets annoyed at added complexity, right? Like, “oh, now I've got to worry about whether I say you know, ‘he or she,' or ‘they or theirs'? My life's hard enough already. I'm just keeping my head above water. That just annoys me.” Right? And I think that little irritation may be the source of so much conflict, and unnecessary suffering in our society. And the flip side is — which for the most part, is how I feel — is, I love difference. I am so bored by the sameness. Living in a world where there's people of all different sort of races and sexes and genders and people who have different customs and do things differently. I love that. But I have a brain that loves learning, and I also have the privilege of a certain level of stability in my life and a certain amount of confidence that I'm sort of ready for the next thing. “Hey, I want to learn something new! Tell me more about what it means to be trans, right?” That's a new wrinkle; tell me about that, I'm interested. But I think that little kind of irritation is something that probably would be good for us all to be mindful of. We all probably feel that at different points about different issues. The need for progress and leadership Jorge: I can relate to that, Peter. And I'm also thinking again, in the spirit of — you used the word “compassion” — to try to empathize, perhaps with folks who might be irritated by this. You used the word “archaic” to refer to the traditional words and structures. And again, that's a very strong word. It might be read as “obsolete,” you know? And I imagine, and that there might be people for whom there's a counter argument there, which is, these distinctions that you label “archaic” have served us for a long time. What would you say to those folks? Peter: Yeah, that's a great point and I agree. It's a provocative word. So, to explain my perception… why I use a word like that. I am somebody who kind of lives in the future. Like, too much maybe, for my own good. I'm always thinking about what's next, where are things going? Which is helpful for being an information architect and planning ahead. But [it] has its costs. It takes me effort to live in the present a little more, right? To be aware of what's going on today. How am I feeling? To take time, to enjoy just being alive. And I don't spend much time reflecting on the past. And I think to a certain degree, I've missed out a lot on, positive emotions, like nostalgia; looking back at how things were. I think I miss out a little there. But my current mental models — my sense of trajectories and where things are going — is that human civilization is really approaching a very dangerous moment. We are in a very dangerous moment, where we are not only causing incredible destruction to other species and to the environment, but we're doing it to the extent that we're on the verge of destroying ourselves. And so, at a time where I see this crisis, like we're in it and it's getting worse, I feel that we need to be more progressive. We need to move faster. The structures that have served us well, served us well in a different world — in a past world that's not coming back. And so, I think that we need to be more open to change, to embrace change. And I say that knowing, especially just based on how you phrased that question, that that's really scary to a lot of people and very difficult for a lot of people. And I'm not sure what the answer is to that other than, to me, in order to deal with change — especially rapid or dramatic change — what's needed is great leadership. It's times like these, where we need great leaders. And at the moment, at least in this country, we don't have that. And so, we're all feeling lost. We're struggling. We're seeing parts of this crisis unfolding. We probably all see it differently, but, what's needed from great leadership is the ability to say, “hey, we have to move from A to B.” Whether that's physically moving from an island to a mainland location, whether it's moving from the use of fossil fuels to renewable energy. A great leader can get people to think in a more positive way about the challenges ahead to recognize, oh, this is going to be hard, but we can actually do something valuable and meaningful with our lives. We can be the generation that made this change, that sacrificed for future generations. And to view it less with fear and more with a sense of adventure and curiosity. I'm hopeful that at some point in the fairly near future, we will get that kind of leadership because I think that we can make tremendous progress. You and I in our careers, we have been part of the internet revolution and we know that one thing humans are good at is technology, at like being incredibly innovative and moving really fast and doing things that were previously viewed as impossible. We just need great leadership to harness that in the right direction. Jorge: For context, we are recording this before the US election. I'm saying that because we don't know what's going to happen, and people might be tuning in after the fact. But I want to call out that this brings us back full circle to where we started the conversation. You mentioned the fear you had when you were starting out at Argus and we've come full circle back to fear. And I wanted to bring things to a close by asking you about what's making you hopeful today. You are now in a different modality from the last time that we spoke. You have started your sanctuary or in the process of starting your sanctuary. And, I'm wondering, how you are, vis-a-vis how you were at the time of the founding of Argus? Peter: Yeah. I think that one difference is that, I'm sort of on the other side of my career. With Argus, I had no real savings, so, I was living month to month. You know, paying my rent with my paycheck. And so, my fear was very focused on job and career and how I made money. I didn't really have time or emotional space to think about all the other things that could go wrong. I wasn't worried about getting sick. I just… that couldn't happen! I couldn't get sick. Now that I have a little more financial security, and I'm older, I'm more aware of a much wider array of things that can go wrong. I've had had an extra 25 years of having things go wrong. And that's where for me, learning about Buddhist philosophy, listening to tapes from Pema Chödrön, really trying to be more at peace in a world and in a body where so much can go wrong — and will go wrong. Things get better and then they get worse and then they get better and then they get worse and that's life. We can't control those ups and downs all that much. So, with Sentient Sanctuary, with this vision that I have to create an animal sanctuary, it's exciting for me and fun for me to imagine it and to begin to work towards it. But I'm not attached in a kind of negative way to its fruition. I'm not…. you know, if I die tomorrow, it's okay. I've had a great life. I've been really fortunate. And, I think that there's a danger with visions, with plans, with hope, that we cling to an outcome. You know, 25 years ago, that was much more me. “I've got to make this work. It has to work!” And now I'm more comfortable with saying, “you know, I can put in my best effort.” When I trained for the Detroit marathon, that was very humbling in the sense that, you spend six months working as hard as you've ever worked for something. And every day, you know one wrong step and you twist your ankle and your dream is done. And you've got to have a bit of sense of humor about that. Otherwise it'll destroy you. And so, that's where I am today. I wouldn't say I'm incredibly hopeful for the future of human civilization. I just don't know where we're headed. I feel really fortunate, given the life that I've lived so far and where I am right now. And I have some fun, exciting things to work on for the future. I'm starting a new consulting project next week that I'm excited about and I'm actively learning about how to raise chickens and goats. So that's great stuff. Closing Jorge: Words of wisdom, Peter, thank you for sharing them with us. Where can folks follow up with you? Peter: So, my websites are semanticstudios.com and intertwingled.org. And I am Morville on Twitter. Jorge: Well, thank you so much. We look forward to hearing more from you as Sentient Sanctuary evolves, and best wishes with all that you have going on. Peter: Thank you. And thanks for having me.

SALLY:Oh, PETER, there you are.　　You've been ages. What kept you so long?　　PETER:I'm sorry I'm so late, SALLY.　　Have you been waiting long?　　SALLY:Oh, half an hour.　　But it doesn't matter.　　I've had a coffee and I've been reading this guidebook for tourists.　　Sit down. You look very hot and tired.　　What would you like to drink?　　PETER:I'd love a really chilled mineral water or something.　　Will you have another coffee?　　SALLY:Yes. I will. The waitress will be back in a moment.　　Why were you so late?　　Did something happen?　　PETER:Yes. You know I went to the bank to cash some travellers cheques?　　Well, the exchange rate was looking healthy, but when I went to the teller, they told me the computer system was temporarily down, so they couldn't do any transactions.　　They said the problem would be fixed in a few minutes, so I waited.　　And then I started talking to another guy in the bank, and I forgot the time.　　SALLY:Oh, really?　　Someone you met in the bank?　　Does he work there?　　PETER:No, he was a tourist, from New York.　　His name's Henry, and he's been here for a week, but he's moving on to Germany tomorrow.　　He's an architect, and he's spending four weeks travelling around Europe.　　SALLY:Just like us!　　PETER:Yeah, just like us.　　He told me the names of some places where we should eat.　　Great food, and not too expensive, he said.　　Oh, and he also gave me this map of the bus system.　　He said he didn't need it anymore.　　SALLY:That's useful. Pity he's moving on tomorrow.　　Ah, here's the waitress. Let's order.　　Do you want anything to eat, or shall we just have a drink?　　PETER:Well. I'm hungry, and we've got a lot of sightseeing to do, so let's just have a snack and a drink.　　SALLY:Sounds good to me.　　PETER:Well, let's decide what well see today.　　I guess the best place to start is the Cathedral, and then the Castle.　　What are the opening times for those two?　　SALLY:Well, according to this guidebook, the Cathedral is only open from nine-thirty in the morning until midday.　　No. hang on. That's the Cathedral Museum.　　The Cathedral itself is open morning and afternoon.　　The Castle is just open from one to five, so we can't go there until after lunch.　　I really want to spend some time in the Art Gallery, because they've got this wonderful painting by Rembrandt that I've always wanted to see.　　PETER:What else should we see?　　SALLY:Well, the guidebook says the Botanical Gardens are worth spending some time in, and they're open all day, from eight to six, so we can go there any time.　　I'd like to go to the Markets near the river too, but... oh ... no, wait, that's only in the mornings, too.　　PETER:As well as today and tomorrow, we can see some other places on Monday, you know.　　But I don't think the Markets will be open then: they only open on Thursdays, so we've missed them for this week.　　Maybe we should go to the Cathedral today because it's Sunday tomorrow, and even though it's open every day it might be more difficult to get in tomorrow because of the church services.　　SALLY:That's true, but the Art Gallery isn't open on Sundays at all, so we'll have to go there today.　　The Castle's open every day except Mondays, so we're OK there, and the Gardens of course only close at night.　　PETER:Are all these places free or do we have to pay to go in?　　What does the guidebook say?　　SALLY:I think there's a charge for all of them except the BotanicalGardens.　　Oh, and the Markets, of course you don't pay to go in.　　PETER:OK, well, it looks like our plan is this: we'll go to see the painting you like first, the Rembrandt, then have lunch and go on to the Castle after that, and then the Cathedral.　　SALLY:OK. It says here that the roof of the Cathedral is really beautiful.　　PETER:Is that right?　　What I really want to do at the Cathedral is climb the tower.　　The view is supposed to be spectacular.　　SALLY:OK, well, that'll be more than enough for today.　　Then, tomorrow, let's go to the Botanical Gardens and have a picnic.　　I want to sit by the river and watch the swans.　　This city's famous for them.

SALLY:Oh, PETER, there you are.　　You've been ages. What kept you so long?　　PETER:I'm sorry I'm so late, SALLY.　　Have you been waiting long?　　SALLY:Oh, half an hour.　　But it doesn't matter.　　I've had a coffee and I've been reading this guidebook for tourists.　　Sit down. You look very hot and tired.　　What would you like to drink?　　PETER:I'd love a really chilled mineral water or something.　　Will you have another coffee?　　SALLY:Yes. I will. The waitress will be back in a moment.　　Why were you so late?　　Did something happen?　　PETER:Yes. You know I went to the bank to cash some travellers cheques?　　Well, the exchange rate was looking healthy, but when I went to the teller, they told me the computer system was temporarily down, so they couldn't do any transactions.　　They said the problem would be fixed in a few minutes, so I waited.　　And then I started talking to another guy in the bank, and I forgot the time.　　SALLY:Oh, really?　　Someone you met in the bank?　　Does he work there?　　PETER:No, he was a tourist, from New York.　　His name's Henry, and he's been here for a week, but he's moving on to Germany tomorrow.　　He's an architect, and he's spending four weeks travelling around Europe.　　SALLY:Just like us!　　PETER:Yeah, just like us.　　He told me the names of some places where we should eat.　　Great food, and not too expensive, he said.　　Oh, and he also gave me this map of the bus system.　　He said he didn't need it anymore.　　SALLY:That's useful. Pity he's moving on tomorrow.　　Ah, here's the waitress. Let's order.　　Do you want anything to eat, or shall we just have a drink?　　PETER:Well. I'm hungry, and we've got a lot of sightseeing to do, so let's just have a snack and a drink.　　SALLY:Sounds good to me.　　PETER:Well, let's decide what well see today.　　I guess the best place to start is the Cathedral, and then the Castle.　　What are the opening times for those two?　　SALLY:Well, according to this guidebook, the Cathedral is only open from nine-thirty in the morning until midday.　　No. hang on. That's the Cathedral Museum.　　The Cathedral itself is open morning and afternoon.　　The Castle is just open from one to five, so we can't go there until after lunch.　　I really want to spend some time in the Art Gallery, because they've got this wonderful painting by Rembrandt that I've always wanted to see.　　PETER:What else should we see?　　SALLY:Well, the guidebook says the Botanical Gardens are worth spending some time in, and they're open all day, from eight to six, so we can go there any time.　　I'd like to go to the Markets near the river too, but... oh ... no, wait, that's only in the mornings, too.　　PETER:As well as today and tomorrow, we can see some other places on Monday, you know.　　But I don't think the Markets will be open then: they only open on Thursdays, so we've missed them for this week.　　Maybe we should go to the Cathedral today because it's Sunday tomorrow, and even though it's open every day it might be more difficult to get in tomorrow because of the church services.　　SALLY:That's true, but the Art Gallery isn't open on Sundays at all, so we'll have to go there today.　　The Castle's open every day except Mondays, so we're OK there, and the Gardens of course only close at night.　　PETER:Are all these places free or do we have to pay to go in?　　What does the guidebook say?　　SALLY:I think there's a charge for all of them except the BotanicalGardens.　　Oh, and the Markets, of course you don't pay to go in.　　PETER:OK, well, it looks like our plan is this: we'll go to see the painting you like first, the Rembrandt, then have lunch and go on to the Castle after that, and then the Cathedral.　　SALLY:OK. It says here that the roof of the Cathedral is really beautiful.　　PETER:Is that right?　　What I really want to do at the Cathedral is climb the tower.　　The view is supposed to be spectacular.　　SALLY:OK, well, that'll be more than enough for today.　　Then, tomorrow, let's go to the Botanical Gardens and have a picnic.　　I want to sit by the river and watch the swans.　　This city's famous for them.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: So, Peter, I've been asking you about hunting for treasure. Can I ask you a few more questions?Peter: Sure.Jana: So why are there so many sunken ships in South Africa?Peter: Well I guess around the southern tip of Africa because of the really bad weather. It really changes really quickly in those parts and with the ancient ships, I guess they weren't really prepared for that kind of weather, it's unexpected, so I think that's probably one reason. And I think one of the other reasons is probably piracy, people that were after them, the loot I guess if you want to put it that way, yeah.Jana: Right, and if it's so dangerous, how do people find these sunken ships nowadays?Peter: I think, obviously with technological advances it's easier to track where the, possibly where these sunken ships might be. I think they can use satellite navigation and things like that but obviously also finding out more about history and, you know, going through historical records and finding out the old shipping routes and possibly where ships got lost and finding it that way, I think, is now, is more easier than it used to be.Jana: So it sounds like an interesting combination of technology, science, history...Peter: I would guess so.Jana: Adventure.Peter: Adventure, yeah.Jana: So your friend does this as a hobby. Do you know if it's very expensive? Is it a big investment to...?Peter: As far as I remember what he told me and I think it's really expensive and they formed a little company to start off with but because it involves so much searching and basically doing historical research, also doing a lot of preparation and technological preparation and finding, first tracking, sorry first finding places where possible finds maybe and then actually preparing equipment and some of its really deep-sea diving so it involves, I think, a lot of initial capital investment to get it going. Obviously there might be a lot of return when they actually find something but I think in many cases they don't find as much as they expected so there's a potential for losing a lot of money so you'd have to have quite a bit of capital investment behind you if you start out.Jana: Right. So you need a lot of courage and a lot of money?Peter: Yes. But I think he's an adventurer so he, I think he goes where adventure leads him so it would be a nice job to do I think.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: So, Peter, I've been asking you about hunting for treasure. Can I ask you a few more questions?Peter: Sure.Jana: So why are there so many sunken ships in South Africa?Peter: Well I guess around the southern tip of Africa because of the really bad weather. It really changes really quickly in those parts and with the ancient ships, I guess they weren't really prepared for that kind of weather, it's unexpected, so I think that's probably one reason. And I think one of the other reasons is probably piracy, people that were after them, the loot I guess if you want to put it that way, yeah.Jana: Right, and if it's so dangerous, how do people find these sunken ships nowadays?Peter: I think, obviously with technological advances it's easier to track where the, possibly where these sunken ships might be. I think they can use satellite navigation and things like that but obviously also finding out more about history and, you know, going through historical records and finding out the old shipping routes and possibly where ships got lost and finding it that way, I think, is now, is more easier than it used to be.Jana: So it sounds like an interesting combination of technology, science, history...Peter: I would guess so.Jana: Adventure.Peter: Adventure, yeah.Jana: So your friend does this as a hobby. Do you know if it's very expensive? Is it a big investment to...?Peter: As far as I remember what he told me and I think it's really expensive and they formed a little company to start off with but because it involves so much searching and basically doing historical research, also doing a lot of preparation and technological preparation and finding, first tracking, sorry first finding places where possible finds maybe and then actually preparing equipment and some of its really deep-sea diving so it involves, I think, a lot of initial capital investment to get it going. Obviously there might be a lot of return when they actually find something but I think in many cases they don't find as much as they expected so there's a potential for losing a lot of money so you'd have to have quite a bit of capital investment behind you if you start out.Jana: Right. So you need a lot of courage and a lot of money?Peter: Yes. But I think he's an adventurer so he, I think he goes where adventure leads him so it would be a nice job to do I think.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: Peter, you're from South Africa, right?Peter: That's right, yeah.Jana: I heard there's a lot of beautiful mountains that are famous for hikes. Is that true?Peter: That's true, yeah. Actually, I've been hiking since I was in elementary school really because there's so much, there are so many hikes to go on. The area that I grew up is actually quite close to the Drakensberg which is a famous mountain range in South Africa and it runs almost the whole length of the country and there are so many hikes, camping spots, places that you could go to and the hikes that you can go on for like a day, or two days, a week, ten days, a month if you want to. Really so much so I used to go most, I guess most holidays, or twice or three times a year even go hiking.Jana: That sounds great. Is it safe? Are there any dangerous animals like snakes?Peter: I guess, hmm I guess I'd have to say yes to that but in all my years of hiking, I have, I have seen many snakes but I've never been bitten or even felt in danger. Like once or twice maybe but South Africa is like also famous for its many poisonous snakes and there are quite a few things that you'd rather avoid but I guess, especially in the Drakensberg, the altitude for the mountains it's quite high so not many dangerous animals live at high altitude if I can put it that way. So it's really, it's really kind of, yeah, it's not dangerous I would say. Like obviously you have to take care and, you know, go during times of the year that is less, that you are less likely to get caught in a snowstorm or get snowed in or freeze to death or something but I think if you take adequate preparation there shouldn't be any problem and it's really gorgeously beautiful.Jana: It sounds really nice. Is it easy to get to? Do you need a car to get around?Peter: Yes. Mostly you should, you should, you need a car and in some places you'd even need a...Jana: Helicopter?Peter: No. I guess you could go with a helicopter but like if you have something like a Land Rover or a Land Cruiser or a four by four vehicle of some kind then you could get even into more beautiful places and more far away distant places that I would recommend even more. There are really so many places you can go to.Jana: It sounds really great. I'll ask you again. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to visit South Africa.Peter: Yes, you should, you should go I say. Do you like hiking?Jana: I do but I hardly ever go, you know, as you get so busy with your daily life and I like the idea of hiking but I hardly ever go, do any sort of outdoor activity but yeah I guess it's a good thing to do during holidays.Peter: Hmm.Jana: Yeah, when I was a kid we often went to the mountains with my parents so we would go for walks, short hikes, that kind of thing.Peter: OK.Jana: But yeah then one just gets a bit busy with the daily life so I kind of forgot.Peter: Yeah, life really has a way to get away with one, it really goes fast.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: Peter, you're from South Africa, right?Peter: That's right, yeah.Jana: I heard there's a lot of beautiful mountains that are famous for hikes. Is that true?Peter: That's true, yeah. Actually, I've been hiking since I was in elementary school really because there's so much, there are so many hikes to go on. The area that I grew up is actually quite close to the Drakensberg which is a famous mountain range in South Africa and it runs almost the whole length of the country and there are so many hikes, camping spots, places that you could go to and the hikes that you can go on for like a day, or two days, a week, ten days, a month if you want to. Really so much so I used to go most, I guess most holidays, or twice or three times a year even go hiking.Jana: That sounds great. Is it safe? Are there any dangerous animals like snakes?Peter: I guess, hmm I guess I'd have to say yes to that but in all my years of hiking, I have, I have seen many snakes but I've never been bitten or even felt in danger. Like once or twice maybe but South Africa is like also famous for its many poisonous snakes and there are quite a few things that you'd rather avoid but I guess, especially in the Drakensberg, the altitude for the mountains it's quite high so not many dangerous animals live at high altitude if I can put it that way. So it's really, it's really kind of, yeah, it's not dangerous I would say. Like obviously you have to take care and, you know, go during times of the year that is less, that you are less likely to get caught in a snowstorm or get snowed in or freeze to death or something but I think if you take adequate preparation there shouldn't be any problem and it's really gorgeously beautiful.Jana: It sounds really nice. Is it easy to get to? Do you need a car to get around?Peter: Yes. Mostly you should, you should, you need a car and in some places you'd even need a...Jana: Helicopter?Peter: No. I guess you could go with a helicopter but like if you have something like a Land Rover or a Land Cruiser or a four by four vehicle of some kind then you could get even into more beautiful places and more far away distant places that I would recommend even more. There are really so many places you can go to.Jana: It sounds really great. I'll ask you again. Hopefully one day I will get a chance to visit South Africa.Peter: Yes, you should, you should go I say. Do you like hiking?Jana: I do but I hardly ever go, you know, as you get so busy with your daily life and I like the idea of hiking but I hardly ever go, do any sort of outdoor activity but yeah I guess it's a good thing to do during holidays.Peter: Hmm.Jana: Yeah, when I was a kid we often went to the mountains with my parents so we would go for walks, short hikes, that kind of thing.Peter: OK.Jana: But yeah then one just gets a bit busy with the daily life so I kind of forgot.Peter: Yeah, life really has a way to get away with one, it really goes fast.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: So we have homework, tests, what about attendance? Should we require students to attend classes or? Sometimes people argue at university level it shouldn't be compulsory.Peter: I think you should attend some classes at least. You're going to university, you're paying for your education so you should attend some classes but it doesn't mean if you're not attending a class that you can still get the information and study by yourself too. That's why I like internet so much because I think people can get so much information from academic institutions via the internet, they don't have to attend a physical class.Jana: That's right and on the other hand you might attend physically but you're not really paying attention.Peter:Exactly. You might as well sleep in class sometimes. It doesn't prove that you're learning if you're there. It depends on the person again I think.Jana: So maybe rather than strictly checking attendance, we should check what the students have learned?Peter: Yes, and how do you do that?Jana: That's right. Now we come back to that.Peter: Testing? I don't know. I think there are other ways of finding out if students have learned things if they, you don't have to call things tests, you can set students tasks to find out if they can do the required task without calling it a test.Jana: That's right and then it becomes maybe a bit more practical too.Peter: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so.Jana: Did you do a lot of projects when you were a student?Peter: Not so many and I think when I studied like education has quite changed in the last twenty years or so and I think people are doing more projects than they used to do when I was a student for the first time but I really like projects because I think it's putting your knowledge to work and finding out how you can apply your knowledge to make it practical and usable so I really like projects. I wish I could give my students more projects.Jana: Yeah, that's true. Maybe they'll be better than tests.Peter: I think so too, yeah. It's a better way to find out if people know things if you give them a project that involves what they've studied.Jana: And in the real life they won't be taking tests anymore. They need to be able to apply the knowledge, right?Peter: Exactly, yeah, exactly. Do you use projects a lot in your class?Jana: Not as much. As you know, we have quite a strict schedule so that we need to follow but like you I also didn't have a lot of projects in my school when I was growing up but yeah, I think it's definitely something to think about.Peter: Yeah. Kind of tricky to give a project in language, like making a language project. For example, I remember doing biology projects.Jana: Right.Peter: Then you go out and you find information and you do research so you can find stuff but for doing, how do you do that for a language? Do you have any ideas?Jana: That's a very good question. Yeah, just to use the language, right? That's the main project, isn't it?Peter: Yeah, I guess. See if you can use the language in different ways like for example.Jana: There is some homework for us to think about.Peter: I think so too. Yeah, let's think about that.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jana: So we have homework, tests, what about attendance? Should we require students to attend classes or? Sometimes people argue at university level it shouldn't be compulsory.Peter: I think you should attend some classes at least. You're going to university, you're paying for your education so you should attend some classes but it doesn't mean if you're not attending a class that you can still get the information and study by yourself too. That's why I like internet so much because I think people can get so much information from academic institutions via the internet, they don't have to attend a physical class.Jana: That's right and on the other hand you might attend physically but you're not really paying attention.Peter:Exactly. You might as well sleep in class sometimes. It doesn't prove that you're learning if you're there. It depends on the person again I think.Jana: So maybe rather than strictly checking attendance, we should check what the students have learned?Peter: Yes, and how do you do that?Jana: That's right. Now we come back to that.Peter: Testing? I don't know. I think there are other ways of finding out if students have learned things if they, you don't have to call things tests, you can set students tasks to find out if they can do the required task without calling it a test.Jana: That's right and then it becomes maybe a bit more practical too.Peter: Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think so.Jana: Did you do a lot of projects when you were a student?Peter: Not so many and I think when I studied like education has quite changed in the last twenty years or so and I think people are doing more projects than they used to do when I was a student for the first time but I really like projects because I think it's putting your knowledge to work and finding out how you can apply your knowledge to make it practical and usable so I really like projects. I wish I could give my students more projects.Jana: Yeah, that's true. Maybe they'll be better than tests.Peter: I think so too, yeah. It's a better way to find out if people know things if you give them a project that involves what they've studied.Jana: And in the real life they won't be taking tests anymore. They need to be able to apply the knowledge, right?Peter: Exactly, yeah, exactly. Do you use projects a lot in your class?Jana: Not as much. As you know, we have quite a strict schedule so that we need to follow but like you I also didn't have a lot of projects in my school when I was growing up but yeah, I think it's definitely something to think about.Peter: Yeah. Kind of tricky to give a project in language, like making a language project. For example, I remember doing biology projects.Jana: Right.Peter: Then you go out and you find information and you do research so you can find stuff but for doing, how do you do that for a language? Do you have any ideas?Jana: That's a very good question. Yeah, just to use the language, right? That's the main project, isn't it?Peter: Yeah, I guess. See if you can use the language in different ways like for example.Jana: There is some homework for us to think about.Peter: I think so too. Yeah, let's think about that.

My guest today is Peter Merholz. Peter is one of the co-founders of the pioneering UX design consultancy Adaptive Path, now part of Capital One. After leaving Adaptive Path, he has structured and led design teams in various organizations. Peter and his co-author, Kristin Skinner, wrote Org Design for Design Orgs, the book on how to organize design teams. In this episode, we discuss how the structure of organizations influences their customer's experiences. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/the-informed-life-episode-28-peter-merholz-2.mp3   Show notes PeterMerholz.com @peterme on Twitter Adaptive Path Org Design for Design Orgs: Building and Managing In-House Design Teams by Peter Merholz and Kristin Skinner Liftoff: Practical Design Leadership to Elevate Your Team, Your Organization, and You by Chris Avore and Russ Unger The Informed Life Episode 22: Andrea Mignolo on Designerly Ways of Being IDEO Tim Brown The Double Diamond Conway's Law Organization in the Way: How Decentralization Hobbles the User Experience by Peter Merholz MacGuffin Shopify Forrester Research Kristin Skinner Read the full transcript Jorge: Welcome to the show, Peter. Peter: Thank you Jorge. Jorge: So, for folks who don't know about you and your trajectory, would you please introduce yourself. Peter: Sure. I'm Peter Merholz, I work in — ostensibly — digital design, have for over 25 years. Started in CD-ROMs, so even pre-web. But cut my teeth on the web and through web design. Probably most notably, helped start a user experience consulting firm called Adaptive Path, which I helped lead from 2001 to 2011. For the last eight years, I've been some flavor of design executive, primarily working in-house. A few years ago, co-wrote a book called Org Design for Design Orgs, which is still the only book about what it… Kind of a playbook on building in-house design teams. Though I'm happy that Russ Unger and Chris Avore's book is coming out soon, so we will no longer be the only one on that subject. And a few months ago, decided to commit myself to independence and started a company. The URL is petermerholz.com, but the company name is Humanism At Scale, and it's my one-person consultancy dedicated to helping design organizations realize their potential and helping bolster and improve design leadership practices within organizations. Jorge: What is the link between the potential of organizations, humanism, and design? Peter: I see design as the Trojan horse for humanistic thinking within companies. Design is an obvious contributor of value, particularly in digital contexts and software contexts, and so companies are building design organizations in order to create these digital experiences. What they don't know they're getting with it is that design, when practiced fully, is situated within a humanistic frame that also includes social science and subjects like user research, it includes writing, rhetoric, composition, with things like content strategy… And so I see design as this lead… It's the tip of the spear, but what's behind it is a full kind of humanistic understanding that design can help bring into these companies. And the importance of that is companies have been so mechanistic, so analytical with their either kind of business orientations, MBA orientations, spreadsheet focuses, or engineering orientations. They've been so mechanistic that design has this opportunity to bring a humanistic balance into that conversation. Jorge: I had Andrea Mignolo as a guest in the podcast last year, and she talked about this subject as well, design as a way for organizations to map out possible futures, in distinction to using things like spreadsheets. Is that kind of what you're talking about here? Peter: That's definitely part of what I'm talking about. I mean, there's the obvious benefits or contributions of design in this business context, which is making a strategy concrete. We talked about that at Adaptive Path over 10 years ago, probably closer to 15 years ago, and, and IDEO has been talking about that. Tim Brown's been talking about that, right? It's very easy for executives to have different interpretations of bullet points on a PowerPoint slide and projections and spreadsheets, but it's really difficult to have different interpretations of sketches and prototypes of futures that those PowerPoint, bullet points and spreadsheets are actually inferring, right? Design can very quickly make concrete these abstract notions. And, so I think lead to better conversations about where an organization is headed. So, I think that's part of it. But I think, again, importantly, there's a whole body of thinking, of problem solving, of looking at the world that is rooted in the humanities, that is rooted in not just design and visual expression, but in language in social science, that can inform how businesses operate in and basically encourage them to operate better at least when I think would be better. Jorge: In your book and in your presentations on the subject, you often talk about this three-legged stool, where the three legs are, business, technology, and design. Is that the context in which you're talking about design here, as in supplementing the other two? Peter: I wouldn't say supplementing, but yes, balancing the other two. And that still makes it sound like design is one against two in that equation. But essentially, business and technical approaches tend to be analytical and reductive. And that's not bad in and of itself, but it's insufficient, particularly given the complexity of the things that we're building and how those things that we're building are situated within a society. And so the opportunity that design and humanism brings is providing a more generative, qualitative, creative, big picture frame and approach to problem-solving to balance that reductive, analytical, quantitative metrics-driven approach that has been so dominant for so long. Something I hadn't actually connected it with until just now as we're talking about, when you have that metrics-driven approach, that leads to businesses so focused on the numbers, they lose sight of the, frankly, societal impact of those numbers, right? So, you know, the big issue with social media is that everything's driving towards engagement. Because that's what they're measuring. And having lost sight of the societal impact of what happens when you have two and a half billion people that you're trying to engage, and not recognizing that the product of that engagement outside of the system is massive societal unrest. Jorge: Which has become evident after the fact, right? Peter: Right. Exactly. But if you had talked to or had any social scientists actively involved in that process, and you had a more humanistic approach involved in that process, you would have likely realized those potential outcomes in the process instead of simply after the fact. Jorge: I've worked mostly as a consultant in my career. I did spend some time internally in an organization, but most of my career I've spent as an external designer who is brought into an organization to help them through some of these challenges. And in that capacity, I've had the opportunity to interact with internal design teams. And one of the things I keep seeing in many of those organizations is that designers are working making either products or services better, but often at a very kind of granular level. And I'm bringing this up because I love what I'm hearing you say about design being kind of the organ of the organization that helps them think more systemically. But sometimes that can be at odds with the way that designers are actually working in organizations. And I'm wondering if you can speak a bit to that. Peter: I agree. By and large, most design in most organizations is seen as part of production, part of delivery. This is the challenge, but the opportunity, with the Trojan horse, right? Design is being brought into these organizations because you need designers to design the interfaces, essentially, of these digital experiences. And that is seen primarily in an output mode, right? The stuff that your users are interacting with, someone needs to design that, let's hire designers. And so it gets very much… I often use the double diamond when talking about this type of work and it's very much second diamond, very much on the execution side, the implementation side. Because that is the obvious value that design brings into business. And I think in many businesses, you're right, that's pretty much the limit of the value that design is bringing. What I would argue though, is there's this potential and more and more companies are expecting that potential of design to have some contribution “upstream.” I talk to companies all the time where they want design to have that seat at the table, to be a peer to product and engineering, to contribute strategically, to the conversation. And so the challenge there though, is often — this is part of the reason why design leadership is so important to me — is that I think we have a general kind of industry-wide shortcoming among our design leaders in terms of understanding the breadth of the influence they can wield and how to wield it. My concern is that many of those design leaders have come up in organizations where design was seen primarily as a production function. And so that's how they're approaching design leadership is just to make production better. And so, there's an opportunity, I believe where design leaders, one, can learn how their practices can have a broader influence. And then two, — and this is actually, I think, an even harder challenge — help those design leaders develop the confidence to assert their perspective at that more kind of executive or strategic level. Right? Because they're often a lone voice in a wilderness, right? That wilderness is heavily analytical, heavily mechanistic. And there are some designers saying, “We've got to listen to users,” or you know, “What about ethics?”, or whatever the thing is that the designer is talking about. And they're often that lone voice. And it can be hard to be that one to stand up and be the one that is — not necessarily getting along with whatever the dominant kind of cultural paradigm is — but I believe… Frankly, I believe it's kind of our duty. I think it's, in an unconscious way, these businesses have realized there's a power to this other way of thinking. That the current models aren't working, that the mechanistic model is running its course. And so, they're seeking other ways of working. So, then they bring in design, and when design starts doing its other way, the initial reaction is going to be one of pushing back because it's weird and uncertain and different. And it's up to the design leader then to manage that transition to help the business not react, not lash out, not reject out of hand, this new way of thinking and then also for that leader to help their team recognize its power and its potential in terms of influencing the organization. And it's really hard. Like, I think design leadership is probably, at least within a product development context, the hardest kind of leadership there is right now. It's easier to be an engineering leader or a product leader, or a data science leader, than it is to be a design leader because of this kind of contradiction or conflict of we want design, but design is different so we're pushing back on design, but then when we push back on it, we're unhappy because design isn't being interesting. Resolving that is this interesting challenge design leaders have. Jorge: You're validating how I see the arc of your career. We've known each other for a long time, and we met through the information architecture community, where — to summarize it really kind of unfairly and at a very high level — it's all about the design of the underlying structures of — at least when we met, at the stage that the discipline was in — was mostly focused on digital experiences. Peter: Web experiences. Jorge: Web experiences, yeah. Peter: Not even software or mobile. Jorge: It was pre-mobile. But that's what we were focused on, right? Like the structures that underlied these experiences. And my sense of your career is that there came a point in your own development where you had this insight that the structures… That you can work on the structure of the thing, or you can work on the structure of the thing that's going to produce the thing. Right? And that's where Org Design for Design Orgs I see basically as a book about the architecture of the organizations that define these architectures. Is that fair? Peter: Sure. Yeah. It's so… Conway's law. Conway's law is an interesting concept in this context, right? Conway's law is that any organization is going to deliver… Whatever it delivers will be a reflection of how it is organized. And oftentimes Conway's law is thought of not as a law, but as a thing to be aware of that you can work around. Right? So, if your company has organized in some way, you have business units, but when you present your org, when you present the company to the world, you don't want your customers to get caught up in the business units. Right? That's often… That has been a role for design to play in the past — web design in particular — is to create this kind of skin, this presentation layer, over the mess that is the company in its presentation to the customers. I actually first was writing about this like literally in 2002 or three there was an essay on the Adaptive Path website called Organization in the Way, where I was talking about how the reason websites don't make sense is because they basically reflect a company's organizational structure. And at that time, I thought the solution was, well, you can keep that organizational structure and the role of the design team is to understand the user and how they are approaching that company and again, create this presentation layer, this interface, this interpretation, so that the user can actually engage with the company meaningfully and not worry about how that company is structured. What I have since come to realize is that Conway's law is a law. That organizations will deliver their value, deliver their services, deliver their experiences, shaped directly by how they are organized. And yes, you might be able to paper over that for some brief period of time, launch a website design that, you know, in the past we would launch these kinds of task-based website designs because customers weren't looking at an enterprise software firm and thinking about the product modules, they had tasks they wanted to solve, so let's do a task-based architecture. And that would last maybe even a year or two, but eventually it would break down because that organizational structure has such power that it would reassert itself in how the company is presented to customers, regardless of whether or not it made sense to the customers. And so, what the true implication of Conway's law is, if you want to deliver a meaningful experience — a sensible experience — to your customers, you have to reorganize your company in a way that makes sense to your customers. That is the only way you're going to solve that problem. Jorge: Yeah. As you're talking about this, I'm thinking that I've experienced that very issue as well in projects where I've been brought in to help an organization, for example, rethink the way that their products are presented on their website. And it seems on the surface to be kind of an information architecture challenge; I've been hired to fix their navigation system or whatever. And then when you start digging into the problem, it turns out that the website and its nav structures are actually a MacGuffin for these conversations that are much more strategic and more challenging that people at a very high level in the organization — for whatever reason — have not been able to articulate except in the context of having something actionable like the website to serve as their meeting ground. Peter: Yeah. What was interesting about the web from an organizational perspective 20 years ago was it was the first time an entire company was being presented in a single unitary canvas, right? Before you would just deal with whatever channel that you were a part of and you know, whether there was a sales channel, a marketing channel, et cetera, and whichever part of the business that made sense to you, and you didn't have to worry about anything else. But with the web, all of that got placed on a single point of entry. And you know, we all dealt with trying to figure out how to design websites for these big companies that now their complexity was being exposed to the users, and the company had never had to deal with that before. I do think you're starting to see some companies grapple with this in a more meaningful sense. They're starting to change how they're organized. Shopify. I'm not a customer of theirs, I don't know if this has been good or bad, right? But Shopify for the longest time was basically organized functionally. You know, product team or an engineering team and a design team and marketing teams, and they would then deliver the products. And then at some point two or three years ago, they decided to — it's not radical — organize by products. But they also identified meaningful product distinctions. Products for merchants in one fashion, products for point of sale products, or whatever it is, right? The product line changed. And so that's now how they organize. They had to reorganize in order to make their company makes sense to their customers, possibly make their company makes sense internally as well. And so, I think you're seeing, you know… I'm doing some work with a bank and they have a set of… So, banks are funny, right? Because they're highly regulated, so that actually limits how they are able to organize. One of the things I've learned in working in financial services is that when a bank offers both checking and savings services as well as credit card services, those have to be treated by the bank as two independent organizations that really shouldn't be interacting with each other for legitimately good regulatory reasons. But as a customer, if you have a checking account with a bank and a credit card with the bank, it can be odd how it's not seamless in engagement. And you're like, “It's the same bank. Why can't I just do it?” And it turns out there's regulatory reasons for that. But what I'm starting to see with in this one bank I'm working with, they have this thing called “missions” and “value streams,” and they're organizing by, basically, tasks. You have a payments team and you have within that payments team; you have a value stream for moving money or a value stream for paying bills, and they're pulling people together in these teams. I'm doing work for a journalism company, news company, I guess you would call it. They talk about journalism; they don't just talk about news. I'm working with a news company, and they also have adopted missions. They have an engagement mission, a growth mission. And these missions are the means by which these companies are pulling together cross-functional teams, but providing an organization that now can make some sense to the customer, right? A customer isn't going to want to navigate the marketing team, the sales team, the product development team, et cetera, et cetera. But a customer, you know, if you are new to this company, you are working… You are basically… Your experience is managed by the growth team as they try to bring you into the fold. If you are an active user, you are now being handed off to the engagement team that keeps you engaged, it introduces you to new experiences, et cetera, et cetera. And so, these companies are looking at ways of creating, internally, at least, some new structures that are orthogonal to the kind of functional structures that better speak to customer experiences because they recognize kind of that Conway's law thing. If what matters is the customer's experience, you have to change your organization to meaningfully deliver on that customer experience. Jorge: I'm guessing that a considerable part of the people listening to us right now are not external consultants but are actually… I don't know if to use the word “affected,” or at least their work is influenced heavily by the type of structures that you're talking about. Peter: Hmm? Yes. Jorge: And I'm wondering if there's any advice or any insights that folks working in organizations can glean from this way of thinking about the work that could help them be more effective. Peter: “Yes” is the short answer. I think particularly designers have — which I'm assuming is the large part of your audience, designers and the design-adjacent — I think are particularly well-suited to have an impact on these internal structures because, as I was suggesting these internal structures should be influenced by an understanding of customers and the journeys they are on. And it's oftentimes and design team working with researchers that are tasked with understanding those customer journeys. And the opportunity, I think, for people internally, is to understand and map these customer journeys. So, do that work. And that, that's not hard to sell. Right? That's a pretty accepted practice now. Forrester's been talking about journey mapping for well over a decade. But I don't think every company has recognized the implications that I was referring to earlier, which is that that customer journey becomes a blueprint for how you reorganize your teams. Now, it might not be their reporting organization, right? That might maintain functional organization. So, you know, your designers will still report up to a Head of Design, and you might have 50 designers reporting into it as part of a single design team. But their day to day work, those designers are spending the bulk of their time and effort in these cross-functional teams that are organized by these journeys. And I think the opportunity is to help drive that organization, drive that conversation around, “Hey, we shouldn't be organized by either function…” Sometimes you get companies organized by platform, right? You have the mobile team versus the web team, you have an iOS team versus an Android tea m. Because that's not how people are experiencing it, right? You want to organize by the nature of how people are experiencing it so that you can deliver value across the customer journey. And you're seeing that more and more. I think we're still at very early days for it. But the opportunity for people listening who are in-house is, one, to know that this shift has occurred. It's not even occurring. The shift has occurred within many companies. And if in your organization, you're not operating in this kind of model that is… In this framework that is modeled after the customer journey, that is something to propose, that is something to continue to agitate for. And the customer journeys that you and your team are creating are that architecture for thinking through this and for organizing in this way. Jorge: Well, that's a great summary, I think. And, I think that those folks should reach out to you. Why don't you tell us where they can do that? Peter: Sure. I'm easy to find. My URL is petermerholz.com. That's my professional URL. I'm on Twitter at @peterme. Those are probably the two best places to find me. You can contact me through either means, through petermerholz.com or through @peterme, my DMs are open. So yeah, that's the easiest way to find me. Jorge: Great. And I believe the book has a website as well, right? Peter: Yes. The book has a website, orgdesignfordesignorgs.com, which also has with it a blog that we update in fits and starts. So, the book came out about three and a half years ago, and we've been blogging about ideas from the book, but as we've had new insights, new thinking, we've been blogging about those ideas. Improved, levels, frameworks, improved portfolio assessment tools, definitions of team leadership. As Kristen and I both do our work, and then teach a workshop based on this, we come up with things to write about. And so, the blog has all the most recent thinking when it comes to organizing your design organization. Jorge: Well, fantastic. I hope that folks visit the site and I'm sure they'll find valuable stuff there. Thank you, Peter, for being on the show. Peter: My pleasure. Thank you, Jorge, for having me.

Shayne Brian (linkedin) is the Director of Voice at Elevate Radio & Podcasts, a company that helps other companies start, run and scale podcasts. And they are good at it :D Shayne was invited to the DMSS 2019 where he talked about how to use podcasts to elevate your message. If you are interested in to podcasting, here is the FREE offer that he talked about on the podcast, you can join the Podcast Essentials Program for FREE (valued at $197).  And, check out his presentation, a video recorded at one of his previous conferences. Here the transcription of the talk we had: Shayne: Think about some of the big podcasts isn't what they're known for. In fact, the reports just come out this week. The number one podcast for 2019 in every single country is Joe Rogan, then there's also GaryVee, and John Lee Dumas. They all have massive followings because they have shows that's consumed almost daily. Peter: Hello and welcome to the Time for Marketing podcast. The podcast that brings you the best marketing conference presentations in five minutes directly to your podcast. Every 14 days on Mondays in your-- whatever podcast that you like to use. My name is Peter, and I'll be the host for this show today, and the same way as I've done the previous 27 episodes as this is episode number 28. Of course subscribing, and viewing, and subscribing to the newsletter and everything else that you have to do so that you get the next episodes that we already have lined up. It will be very interesting. Today with me from the other part of the continent, not continent. The other part of the world, is Shayne Brian. Shayne, hello and welcome to the podcast. Shayne: Hi Peter, and thanks for having me on the podcast. Yes, I'm sitting here in the heat in Australia getting ready for another hot Christmas. Peter: I envy that so much. I love the snow that we're getting, but on the other hand, I love being able to sit on the-- I imagine you sitting on the beach drinking cocktail and [crosstalk] Shayne: I'm sitting on a beach drinking beer while I'm talking to you. Peter: All right, excellent. Shayne: No, I'm not really, but that would be lovely. [laughter] Peter: Shayne, you are the director of voice at the Elevate Radio and podcast company. Tell us a bit what you do, what your company does. Shayne: We actually help people create podcast, so we help people produce podcast, distribute podcast. I actually started out in radio of being in radio for many many years, and I just love the whole environment of radio. I love music, and that was one of the things that really attracted me to creating Elevate Radio. It originally started as a radio station called Soul Traveler Radio, and we changed the name just last year to Elevate Radio. Over the last three years, we've seen podcast just come out of the woodwork. In fact, five years ago I was trying to convince businesses that they needed a podcast and they're like, "What's a podcast? You're crazy. No one's going to listen to a podcast." And here we are talking about podcast. Peter: Yes, this is the position where I feel that in your Europe, a lot of companies still sit. I feel that podcast in the United States have blown up immensely, but in Europe it's still going why. This is why I was interested in having you to the podcast to try to talk to companies and all, and why they should do that. Shayne: Yes. I just want to say, 95% of the podcast at the moment reside in the US, so the US have really embraced it. The other countries are really picking it up Europe and Australia. Don't be surprised if you start to see the podcast really start to become bigger and bigger in Europe. Peter: If you are one of the podcast, you are one of the hundred thousands. If you're one of the vlogs, you're one of the hundred million vlogs, so the option to get there it's still much better actually, right? Shayne: It is. Yes, it is. I'll actually present some of those figures in the talk. Peter: That's good for the podcast because you had a presentation at the Digital Marketing Skillshare, of course 2019, in Bali. How was the conference? Shayne: Fantastic. Actually, one of the best conferences I've been to. It was pretty funny, because it's very much SEO social media marketing conference. I contacted the lady that organizes it, Lisa, and the gentleman that runs it, Bree, and I said, "You need a podcast, or you need to be talking about podcast at your conference." They're like, "Why? Why are we talking about podcast? It's digital marketing." Then when I actually spoke, they realized that it's very much a massive part of digital marketing these days, and it can be something that a business-- Well, it's something the business should be thinking about as part of their digital marketing strategy. The conference itself, fantastic. Met a lot of amazing people, a lot of amazing guys. Actually, met the guys from Authority Hacker who are based in Germany. Their whole business that they run is based around a podcast, because the podcast works. Peter: Yes, and for whenever who is interested in doing any SEO, the Authority Hacker podcast is one of my favorite podcast. That means a lot. Dave elevated their business well once they've started doing a weekly podcast, and really sticking to the schedule of once a week immensely. I've been trying to get them to this podcast, but wasn't really able to get through any of those two guys, but I will get them. I will. All right, your presentation was nine ways to monetize your message using the power of podcast. I think that this is the time and place where we should go to your presentation, so Shayne here are your five minutes. Shayne: Thank you. I'm actually going to not go too much into the nine ways, and I'll give you a link to the full podcast for the full presentation at the end of the podcast. What I really want to talk about is stories, and I want to talk about the reason why we love podcast so much. Pretty simply, the world love stories. Since the beginning of time, we've actually thrived on hearing stories. What started as stories told around campfires of Gods and monsters. Developed overtime, and yet even with all of the advances in technology at the start of the last century, there we were again telling stories on radio players like the famous War of the Worlds that cause mass hysteria. Stories can motivate, thrill, scare, or simply portray a snapshot of our lives. A moment in time that our message, our greatest truth hits the ears of our audience for the very first time. The moment when you can hear a pin drop, a heart beating. Out of the silence, comes our story, your story, the story that you've been dying to tell. Now, when I first started in radio. I was told that I didn't have a voice that was good enough. Then for the next 20 years, I hid my voice. I did everything in radio except go on air. It was easier for me to become invisible than to suffer the embarrassment of having a voice that wasn't good enough. Now years later, I met my wife for the very first time. During that very first coffee date, she said, "Wow, you must be an announcer because your voice is perfect for radio." It took 20 years of hiding, and in one moment everything became crystal clear to me. Something triggered in my brain, and I knew that I had to let the old story that I actually let that old story become my reality, and that I had to now let it go. Now, when I mention it to people, they can't believe that I allowed that thinking to beat me, but that's why I love doing what I do because you can never ever underestimate the power of a story, and the effect it can have on you, and on others. The question remains why podcast? Well, because it's the fastest moving media on the planet right now. Now we know that everybody loves to hear a story. We can understand that it's surpassing growth rates of social media, and that there's no chance of slowing it down. In fact, 2020 is being heralded as the golden year for podcast. In the last 12 months, podcast consumption growth rate has become so big that the Spotify CEO Daniel Ek set aside 500 million dollars at the start of 2019 to acquire a podcast start-up companies. Now, it begs the question, why would a streaming music services spend that much on podcast? Here's the truth. The average age of podcast listeners is 25 to 34 with 35 to 44 coming in next. I have to say it's actually becoming an even greater area with 45's to 54's now listening as well. Podcast ad revenue has grown as a result of the increase in the market, has grown 1,000% in five years. Now, if you just think about that for a minute, it's actually staggering. According to recent reports by iHeartMedia, their digital revenue which includes podcasting increased by 33% in the third quarter in 2019. Traditional revenue decreased by 0.6%, so what does that tell us? Advertisers are placing more faith in the emerging podcast scene. To back this up, Forrester Research has predicted that podcasting will be a 1 billion dollar market by the end of 2020. If you are incorporating podcasting into your marketing plan then that is a massive chunk of income and potential business that you're letting sit by. It's time that your business jumped on board the bandwagon. According to Statistics, musicsgoomf.com, and also the companies, Nelson and Edison. In 2019, there were 700,000 active podcasts, 29 million podcast episode and the average listener consumed seven different shows per week. To top that off, 45% of the listeners are well-educated and have a high income. Now, think about this for a minute. Not only are they smart, they're spoiled for choice and they listen to a lot of shows. You have a lot of competition and it will only increase in the next couple of years. I didn't mention these statistics to depress you, instead just to help you see that if you really plan out your podcast well it can bring in well-paying clients that are dedicated to devouring your shows every week. What does that mean? That means that podcasts become a source of trust for many people. Think about some of the big podcasters and what they're known for. In fact, the reports just came out this week. The number one podcast for 2019 in every single country is Joe Rogan. There's also Gary Vee and John Lee Dumas. They all have massive followings because their shows are consumed almost daily. They also have a call to action on their shows. Joe Rogan has special sponsor offers. John Lee Dumas has affiliated links and Gary Vee has calls to action to work with his media agency. What actually happens is, their listeners become intimately involved with the podcaster not in a creepy stalkers way but in a way that means that they will look up to you as an authority and will trust what you have to say over others. That's what's happening in the podcast arena and what we actually do is we teach you how you can as a business cash in by telling your story and actually ride the Tsunami that's actually heading our way. We will actually show you how you can leverage both your message and your story to bring in a cash flow for you and it's really important that over the next few years or actually even the next 12 months that you consider podcast as part of your marketing strategy. I think that was five minutes [laughs]. Peter: All right. That was somewhere around there. I will add the links to your presentation to these show notes but If I am a CEO or marketing director of the company and you've just convinced me, I want to do podcasting, just thinking, how do I? What is the first step that should be done? Shayne: It's really simple. There's a three-step process that we operate with. The first one is to know your story. Everybody in business knows their product really intimately and can build a story around their product, to make it sound interesting. The second thing is record. Get your phone out, buy yourself a Blue Yeti that can plug into your laptop or your computer and just record yourself speaking or record yourself chatting with somebody else about your topic then send the file to us and we edit it. We create the podcast for you and it's as simple as that. Peter: The podcasting Gimlet Media is the podcasting company that everyone speaks about because they were acquired this year. When I check out their podcast that they are doing for others, it seems that doing interviews with smart people is the solution that they are going with for other companies. Would you agree that this is probably the best way of how to do podcast? Shayne: There's a couple of different ways and it really depends on your budget. Let's be honest, if you want to do a simple podcast, the easiest way is to interview someone. Why would you interview someone to promote your business? The simple thing is this, if you have aligned yourself with someone who has a similar message to you and who can speak about what your business is about then what's actually happening is you're aligning with their audience as well. If you're doing an interview with someone, make sure it's someone that has got a lot of following, bringing some good following then they will actually share your podcast. Because they're in a similar business to you, you know that the people that are listening to them are going to be wanting to know more about you as well. That's the first thing that they do and the reason why they do interviews but the other thing that Gimlet is really big on and this is becoming a much bigger. In fact, we're actually in the middle of doing two of these podcasts at the moment. Gimlet are doing curated podcasts. What a curated podcast is as a large corporation, you could turn around to us, for example, and say we've got a budget of $100,000, we want to put together like a 26-episode podcast series. We don't know where to start. We don't even want to talk on the podcast. What can you do? What we would do is we would actually sit down with them and create a podcast, bring on a host, bring on journalists, bring on whatever it is that we want to go down, whatever path we want to go down. We're actually doing this with one of the survivors of the Waco tragedy that happened in America and he was actually there on the ground when the place got burnt to the ground and everybody died, David Koresh and his followers. We're actually curating a podcast and getting interviews and putting it together and it's called Waco: The inside story. I think this is becoming even bigger, the curated podcast than just the interviews and that's what Gimlet are really focusing on as well now. Peter: We are still at the time where it's pretty hard to measure the success of a podcast, right? Different platforms have their different metrics. Is there a modern new way of how we are better able to handle that? Shayne: I actually have a process that I follow that was taught to me by one of the big podcasters in America called Steve OSHA. I call it the thousand dollar funnel and basically what it is, is this, if you've done a podcast and it's been a successful podcast and people really love listening to you, they've actually started to trust what you have to say. After listening to you for an hour, they are going to want to know more about you so by providing them with the link for a free giveaway or a free offer, you're actually going to be making sure that the listener that has begun to trust you will connect with you. Now, at that point of that free offer, once they've clicked that button, what he actually does is he has another link that pops up and it might be a $5 offer then he'll have a third link that pops up and it might be a $45 offer. By doing that you're actually creating this flow for people to go through, this funnel for people to go through. Because they've trusted you in listening to that podcast and they've come on and they've downloaded that free ebook or whatever it is that you're offering them, the next step of them pulling out their wallet and actually doing business with you is a lot easier. That's how we can actually measure the process and the reason he calls that the thousand dollar funnel is because every time he appears on a podcast, he makes a thousand dollars. It's really simple [chuckles]. I think it changes every time but obviously it's something-- that's what he calls it but the concept is really simple and it's a really easy way to measure the success of not just people listening to the podcast but the success of what you're saying, how successful are you at conveying your message to the public. Peter: Don't use vanity metrics, use metrics that really impact. Shayne: Don't use vanity metrics. Peter: That's very good idea. Shayne: That's for sure. You want to look at the hard figures. I'm going to say that I'm actually going to give everybody that's listening to this podcast free access to one of our programs that will teach you how to prepare yourself for podcasting. It's called podcasts essential. I'm more than happy to offer that to all of your listeners. Peter: Okay. I think that's it. Shayne, where can people find you do you have any future conferences planned already? Shayne: Look I actually have quite a few things that are coming up next year. You can find me on Facebook. Just look up Shayne Brian and connect with me on Facebook, on LinkedIn. If you go to elevate podcast.com, that will take you through to our podcast power program. I'm actually going to give you a link, Peter, that you can actually share with everyone that will give people access to our special offer which is the podcast essentials. This is something that we normally sell for $97 and I'm happy to give that away to everyone that's listening here. Peter: Excellent. I'll put that to the show notes and in the show notes you'll also find the whole presentation. That means that there's a lot of value for you to open up the time for marketing.com website and find the show notes for the podcast. Shayne, it was great. Go and enjoy your beer on your Australian beach that you are enjoying. Shayne: [laughs] I will. I'll have a prawn as well. Peter: Excellent. Very good and thank you for being on a podcast and have a great day. Shayne: Thank you, Peter, it's being pleasure. Peter: All right, bye-bye.

Matthew publishes blog content and case studies on his personal website and on his company website. The case study that we talked about is published here with much more information and all the tiny details. You can also find Matthew on Linkedin or Twitter. You can also watch the whole presentation on YouTube Here is the transcript of the podcast: Matthew: One of the biggest wins we had was with the homepage where we deploy I think around 10,000 words of content. Peter: This is the time for marketing. The marketing podcast that will tell you everything you've missed when you didn't attend the marketing conference. Peter: Hello welcome to the time for marketing podcast the podcast that gives you all of the information that you have missed when you didn't attend your marketing conferences. Welcome to episode number 25 my name is Peter and I'll be your host for today before we go to our guests. I'm not going to tell you to subscribe to the podcast I'm going to tell you and ask you something else tomorrow when you go to work. Yes, I know you work with a lot of marketing people when they leave their cell phones on the table take them open their podcast app and subscribe them to my podcast, that's probably the easiest way to tell people to subscribe to the podcast thank you. All right and now let's go to the guests that we have this time hello Matthew Woodward how are you doing? Matthew: [laughs] Hey, thanks for having me on. I love your little tip there a very blackhat approach so to speak I think I might steal that one for myself of next conference [laughs] Peter: Well, people don't randomly talk about podcast and mention podcasts to other people that doesn't happen. We have to give them specific advice this is always a marketing thing be very specific on what people should do click here, subscribe other people to my podcast. Nice to have you here on the podcast, Matthew. Matthew: Thank you very much. Peter: Matthew people know you. You have a very known blog that is matthewwoodworth.codit.uk and you are also the director of search logistics. Tell me what are the fun things that you do in your line of work? Matthew: Well, my line of work all of it is fun from top to bottom. I've been doing SEO since before link-building existed and I've been following my passion ever since. The fun things I get to do every day is just nerd out on what I love doing and that is SEO and digital business and everything like that. Honestly, it doesn't matter if I'm doing like some like boring data entry tasks or planning a new promotion [laughs] I love it all. Peter: All right. I invited you to this podcast because you were in Barcelona, how is Barcelona? Matthew: Yes Barcelona a beautiful city. I don't usually like cities, but Barcelona was pretty cool. The Affiliate Summit Conference is one of my favorite conferences because it attracts such a wide variety of people rather than just SEO or just the ECOMAS guys and so forth. It's a great conference and I put together a great presentation for them which I'm hoping to boil down and share with you guys today. Peter: I feel that affiliate marketing is, similar to SEO, it has been pronounced dead a couple of times in the past. Matthew: Yes.[laughs] Peter: It's still there and it still works very well right? Matthew: Yes, as long as there are things to buy there'll be affiliates and as long as there are search engines to search they'll be SEOs. [laughs] Peter: All right let's not beat around the bush that's what we do. Let's go directly to your presentation, your presentation was a case study on how to increase your search traffic for 14 times? Matthew: Yes, we took search traffic from 2,700 a month to 38,000 in just eight months with an affiliate site in the health niche. Peter: All right. I think we have to take our five minutes so that you can explain to us how you did that so that we can repeat that for our own websites here you go. Matthew: Look SEO doesn't have to be complicated. One of the things I know as popular SEO blog owner is that people always like looking for the secret ingredient or the supersecret to SEO. The truth of the matter is it just doesn't exist. There isn't a super-secret to find, there isn't a super ingredient, there isn't that one thing that's going to push you over the edge. It just doesn't work like that. It's a combination of factors that will help to elevate your search traffic. The problem is most people are only focused on one of those factors which is building links. It's very easy to get lost in the technicalities and complications of SEO, but look it boils down really to a very, very simple three-step process. That is, first of all, take a look at technical SEO. You've got to build the structure of a solid and healthy website structure that not only Google loves, but people love as well. The second step is you've got to create content that actually helps people. It's actually, got to be relevant people actually want to engage with it. It's got to be the content that when people read it they want to share it. No one wants to link to a lemon and many people don't produce good enough content that's worthy of attracting links naturally it's a common mistake. The third step is link building and that just acquiring links from relevant websites. That is 10 times easy to do when you've taken care of content creation and your technical SEO and on-site experience. Those three pillars the healthy site structure, the content and the link building those three pillars if you pay attention to them and work them together have absolutely incredible effects. You don't need SEO to be complicated just take care of the basics and Google will reward you. The problem is many people don't want to take care of the basics. Honestly, that's all we did in this case study we 14 times search traffic in a highly competitive health niche and we only built 76 links. Over that period the site actually attracted around 350 links. Now the reason it was able to attract 280 links was that because we paid attention to site structure and content before we went out to do the link building. now if you had to budget for those additional 250 links in the health niche you'd probably have had to spend around a hundred to 150 dollars per link. Not only from an ROI perspective is taking care of your technical SEO and quality of content important. It's important for your users, it's important for Google your rankings your traffic and conversion everything relies on getting those three pillars right, but so many people are blindly obsessed with link building they can't see the woods for the trees and then they use all of their effort and all of their resources building links which they're not getting the maximum value from those links because they haven't taken care of the other core pillars and when you take care of all of them they all work together and it's the most cost-effective way of increasing your search traffic. Now the case study site and I've got a very detailed case study that drills down into all of the technical differences that we could simply not cover in five or ten minutes. If you want to check that out there's a full post on my blog along with a video that goes through all of the real nitty-gritty technical bits it leaves no stone unturned. We faced a common problem with this site that many people might face and when we were trying to rank it the search results were dominated by huge brands huge, huge, huge brands and that's quite scary when you're looking at it. What we noticed is the brands that were ranking specifically the pages that were ranking were only ranking out of the strength of the domains Authority. They were not ranking because of individual page level metrics like backlinks that men that if we focused on page-level metrics we had an opportunity. For example where a site like Holland and Barrett might be ranking number three, but with zero links to the page. Yes, if we build a page it's got 15 links to it we've beaten them on page-level metrics and that gives us an opportunity to compete in the search results. That was the common theme of this case study we were looking for search results where sites were purely ranking out on the main level metrics rather than page level and then we optimized all of the page level metrics in order to compete. Now the health niche is seriously, seriously competitive, but that approach allowed us to find lots of opportunities that once we approached it with that mindset and that's how we got the competitive advantage with the entire strategy that was really the foothold that allowed us to take control. Once we identified the opportunity, it was in just a case of looking at our competitors seeing what they were doing why they were doing it how they were doing it. We were looking at what they did that we liked, what we didn't like where they're using trust signals on the page was the content aligning to intent we really just did a very manual observation of the search results to see what we felt. Now, manual observation, the power of observation is one of the most underutilized skills you can have as a human being, like in general life. Not only in SEO but we can learn so much as by observing and in the SEO world, we're often distracted by big data and tools and analytics and all these other things that actually stops us from just using the computer between our ears. Quite often you can just look at a search result and just ask yourself questions, why is this ranking and look through the data and come up with your own observations rather than just looking at what a tool says. That's important to do because you really start to get a feel not just for the SEO of the niche, because every niche is different, but also who your competitors are. Why are they your competitors, what they do good, what they do bad? It becomes more of a business exercise and it's something that's lost on many SEOs and people skip over. Once we decided on our strategy, we observe the search results and we found our opportunities, then it was just a case of going and making sure we had build a solid site structure that Google loves and humans love. I drilled down more into that in the post be`cause it gets very technical and the issues this site had is unique to this site. We have issues with page speeds, site structure, duplicate content, had some issues with trust signals and a few other areas. Have a look at the full case study and see if your site suffers from any of those problems as well. If it does, you need to fix them. Once we've taken care of there was like seven or eight key issues that was preventing us from building a solid foundation that Google loves. Once we built that, it was then just a case of creating content. Now, we created the content of the back of the manual observation we've done in the search results. We've made a note of what was ranking, what we liked about it, what we didn't like about it and so forth. We went out and created content that matched that specifications. One of the biggest wins we had was with the home page where we deployed I think around 10,000 words of content. Sorry, the home page originally had 1,500 words of content on it. We increased that to nearly 11,000 words just by answering 20 of the most popular questions in the niche. The impact on that was the home page went from ranking for like a handful or keywords to over 11,000 different keywords just by adding about 10,000 words of content to the home page. We went out and we made sure all of the content we were creating for our target keywords is at least equal to or slightly better than our competitors. There's literally no reason to be ten-timesing your content, you've just got to match or better your competitors. Once that was in place, it was just a case of acquiring links from relevant sites and trust me, many, many people struggle link building, but link building is really, really, really easy when you've created content that people actually want to link to. It's a much easier sell when you picture, hey, look at this awesome post when it is actually awesome and that's a big part that many people will miss when they're so focused on link building. They can't see the woods for the trees and then they miss out on much bigger opportunities and end up spending a bunch more money than they need to, to acquire the same amount of links. Once we have taken care of on-site structure, technical SEO, the content and then the link building, those three basic pillars of SEO. We saw traffic grow from 2,700 per month to 38,000. That's a 14 time increase in 8 months in one of the most competitive niches on the planet. We did it solely by taking care of the every basic pillars of SEO, wasn't complicated and that's the biggest advantage that you often have in it in SEO. Just by using the power of manual observation and seeing where you can fit in with things rather than relying on tools and analysis and this and that and the other. Just look for those opportunities with your eyes and then make sure you do the basics right, because if you do the very basics right of any business whether it's SEO or offline business, whatever it is, if you do the very basics right, you always see success and that is very much the case with SEO. Peter: All right, thank you. A couple of very interesting things were mentioned, home page started ranking for giant number of keywords. Usually I would say that the home page, because it has to look nice and it doesn't really have as much content, it would usually rank for the brand keywords and more or less nothing else, but you switched that and wanted to get the home page ranked. How can be a home page competitive to 1,000 worded article from the competition? Matthew: The home page usually has the most weight in terms of SEO. It usually has the most authority and you're right, most people only use a home page to try and rank for brand terms. What we did was we just made a list of the most popular questions in the niche and answered them. In you know, when you clicked to expand the question and it reveals the answer? That on it's own attracted a bunch of long tail keywords that were all relevant to our niche and then also reinforce all of our topical relevance. That was just something that tried on that site and we have great, great, great success with that. Peter: All right, so it should be tried at other places too. Matthew: Yes, and I've just have to point it out, beyond just finding out what the top questions where and answering to them, there was no keyword research that went into it. There wasn't any like strategy or planning that went into it. It was just, okay, let's answer all of these super relevant questions on the home page and see what happens, and that's what we did. Peter: Very interesting, the tools got to compare yourself to the competition, Pop or Quora or others are really, really popular right now in SEO in the last couple of months. You're saying, use your brain and just see for yourself and you're going to understand your competition much better than using the tools. Matthew: Yes, I'm not saying don't use the tools, but the tools shouldn't be the first thing that you use. The first thing that you should do is use the computer between your ears, do the search yourself, look at the search results, manually review them both on a desktop and a mobile phone and get a feel for it. Often just by looking, you see opportunities and while everyone else is distracted with automation and tools, you can just observe. It's how I see most of my success in life, I just sit back and observe. Observe the people that are winning, observe the people that are losing. Why are they winning? Why are they losing? Why is this person doing that? Why do they making it? Just sit back and observe and if you apply that to the search results, I learn more just observing search results and doing random searches like best gaming laptop. I like watching how that search result has changed over the years. Two years ago you would've found a bunch of amazon affiliate sites there. Right now, there's not a single affiliate site there. Just that kind of observations tells you the direction that things are moving in. If you're building Amazon affiliate sites and you're not building businesses right now, well the search results are already telling you you're making the wrong decision. That's the power of observation, it's underutilized not just in SEO but in general life as well. Peter: Yes, and I had a boss once who every morning he wanted to type all of the costs and income for the different marketing channels into the spreadsheet himself. He went through the numbers every day himself with his own brain and understood and of course, now the company has grown to up 300 people. Matthew: Yes. That's- Peter: There is an idea of understanding, getting the deep understanding of the field is the additional benefit. Matthew: Yes, that's a very intelligent decision by him because he could just have someone else enter the numbers him read the data, but when you read the data you're not analyzing it in the same way as when you're actually in the got to doing it. Very smart move by your boss and I think there's a lesson there for all of the SEO community to take [laughs] Including myself actually. Peter: All right Matthew. I think we had a very nice summation of your presentation at the Affiliate World in Barcelona. As mentioned, we'll add links to your blog post with your video and to your short presentation to the show notes. Where can people find you, contact you and of course read stuff that you write on your blog? Matthew: Yes, the best way to read anything by me is to hit matthewwood.co.uk. There's a ton of content there that answers pretty much every SEO question you can ever think of. You'll also find a case study section and you'll find this case study, How We 14 Times Search Traffic. The case study includes all of the technical details that I wasn't able to include on the talk along with a video that steps you through the entire thing. I'm hoping that it's one of the best SEO videos you've ever seen, so leave me a comment and let me know if that's the case. Peter: All right, let everyone go and check that. Do you have any future conference plans already set up? Matthew: I'm going to be talking at Chiang Mai SEO in November and I got a couple of a potential bookings next year that we're just ironing out the details of [laugh] but Chiang Mai SEO will be next one, yes Peter: One more thing, when I went through our communication in Gmail, I searched for your name and then I found out when was the first time when I really met you but contact with you. It was probably last year. I think it was last year when you were having SEO Black Friday deals. Matthew: Oh yes. Yes. Peter: Black Friday is coming slowly. Are you having something similar this year too? Matthew: Yes. For the last five or six years, I've published a site, internetmarketing.blackfriday, which covers all of the Black Friday deals across the SEO and blogging niche. I think last year we had like a whole 120 different deals loaded and I think 11 of them were exclusive to us as well. That's something that I've been doing for quite a long time and we'll be doing it this year as well. Peter: All right. Excellent. I think that's it. Thank you very much for being on the podcast. It was extremely informational. Matthew: Yes. Perfect. Peter: Glad for having you here and have a great day. Matthew: Thank you very much. It's been great to be here.  

Joelle is the Director of Marketing & Growth at Bookmark (her on Linkedin) and she spoke at the MozCon 2019 with a presentation on Image & Visual Browse optimization opportunities. The official title of her presentation was Get The Look: Improve the Shopper Experience with Visual Search Optimization. In a time where everyone talks about voice optimization, she thinks about the new channels that visual browse and purchase will bring. You can check out the slides from her presentation here: Get The Look: Improve the Shopper Experience with Visual Search Optimization from Joelle Irvine Here is the transcript of the podcast: Joelle Irvine: This is something that's not widely used by many researchers, but the interest is really growing. There are some studies done, ViSenze actually did a study where they found that 62% of Millennials would really like to be able to search by image and 58% of them would like to be able to click to purchase directly from content. Peter Mesarec: This is Time for Marketing. The marketing podcast that will tell you everything you've missed when you didn't attend the marketing conference. Hello and welcome to the Time for Marketing podcast, the podcast that brings you information from the conference's that you were not able to attend in a short time span because we know you are all busy enjoying the last days of summer. This is the episode number 24. My name is still Peter and we will go directly with our guests joining us today from beautiful Canada up there and to the left very far away from me is sitting Joelle Irvine. Joelle: Hi Petter. How are you? Peter: I'm very well, how are you doing? Today is Tuesday. You're slowly starting your workweek. Joelle: Yes. Peter: Did you already start after the summer? For agencies stuff usually dies down a bit or declines back are they sending emails and trying to do everything for Black Friday and everything in the fall that they have planned. Joelle: We actually don't really have any slow periods here at Bookmark. Not only do we do digital but we also do magazines so we gear up for the fall during the summer and then the fun continues throughout the fall until the holidays at the end of the year. Peter: All right. The #agencylive will always work hard. Joelle: Yes, exactly. [chuckles] Peter: Joelle, you are the director of marketing and growth at the agency called Bookmark Content and Communications. Can you briefly tell us what do you do either as the agency and more importantly, what are the things that you do? What are the nice things that allow you that you are happy at your work every day? Joelle: At Bookmark, we're a global content and communications agency and we have offices all around the world. We work mostly primarily with luxury and lifestyle brands and we create content for them to bring their brand and audiences together. What I do is actually create content for our content marketing company, it's very meta. I wear many hats, I do a little SEO, I do in marketing social media. I also work on some new business, I do really a little bit of everything, I love it. Peter: Yes, you're the director of stuff there, you'll have to do everything. If you're doing stuff for high-end brands, I've invited you to the podcast because you spoke at the Moscone conference. How is SEO and high-end brands coming together? Joelle: Well, I was looking for new and innovative things to bring to our clients. Not only do we focus on-page SEO we're also looking at technical SEO as well as new things we can bring to them. How can we integrate voice? How could we integrate visual search? How can we make sure that when their audience looks for them in search that they're getting visually pleasing results, not only text-based results. Peter: Yes. This is why I was very interested in your presentation, in a time when everyone speaks about voice search you speak about image search or visual search. Your presentation was called Get To Look, Improve the Shopper Experience with Visual Search Optimization. We'll get to the presentation in a minute. How was Moscone? Joelle: I really enjoyed it. It was actually my third year at Moscone, this is my first time on stage. What I really love about Moscone is the community. I love the people that attend. I love the presentations and the other presenters that spoke, they all cover really interesting things that are current, that are relevant, that are trending. They also bring something I think a little bit different than other conferences be because it is a one-track conference and I really love that approach. I also really appreciate the way that it's very much human first even though it's a tech company. They really accommodate everybody. Even if you look at the speakers it's very much a 50/50 split between men and women which I really appreciate. Peter: Yes. I've had two speakers for a Moscone on the podcast in the previous episodes just because the presentations that I saw were so good. All right, let's go directly to your presentation. Without further ado, I just give you your five minutes to sum up your presentation. Joelle: Perfect. When I talk about visual search, I'm really talking about searching for images with other images not searching for images with text queries. This is something that's not widely used by many searchers but the interest is really growing. There are some studies done, ViSenze actually did a study where they found that 62% of Millennials would really like to be able to search by image and 58% of them would like to be able to click to purchase directly from content. That's very telling showing that young people are really interested in this type of technology and I find also people are in tune with looking for things with their eyes versus typing them out. There's another stat that I'd like to share and it's that 85% of consumers place more importance on visuals when shopping online for clothing and furniture. I'd like to share why I chose Google lens and Pinterest lens as examples. I find that they're both leading the way in terms of technology and ways to use visual search to appeal to their customers and also drive revenue for brands. Google lens is really focusing more on practical applications where Pinterest lens showing more success in discovery engagement and conversion for fashion and home decor brands. I find those two things are really interesting to look at because not doing the same things, they're investing in different ways to use image recognition technology to appeal to their audience. If we look back at the past few months, Pinterest lens has actually started integrating some cool new features. They integrated hybrid search which is a way of integrating a visual search with a text-based query. Right now it's not something that you can use where you can actually type in a query but you can actually take an existing pin and text provided by Pinterest to come together and provide search results based on those two things. They're working on something called to Complete the Look which I think is going to be really amazing and I feel like other companies and tech companies and social media companies will follow suit once this is released. What it does, is it allows you to actually type in a text query and combine it with an image to find a handbag to go with an outfit or curtains to go with your living room. What's interesting about Pinterest lens is that right now there's about 600 million visual searches that are happening every month and 300 million people around the world are using it. That's small potatoes compared to let's say Google or Amazon's audience but there is a large group of people who are actually using visual search. If that's something the brands are interested in, they should leverage that. Mostly because proportionately Pinterest drives more referral traffic to e-commerce sites than other social platforms. Something else that I'd like to share is that Google lens, it can recognize over one billion items. That's quite something. At the recent Google I/O conference last May, they also introduced two new filters further Google lens. One is dining where you can actually scan menu items and it'll pick up some images and recommendations from their Maps app to get people to choose items that other people have liked. Also, the translate feature where you can scan a printed document or a screen with text in another language and it'll translate it for you in a matter of seconds. That in itself is very cool when you're traveling, it just makes things way more accessible. They also announced the addition of augmented reality into a Google search which could have huge possibilities for shopping if that will also get integrated into the lens features. All of this leads to opportunities for retail brands, e-commerce brands. Some of these opportunities include increased visibility for lesser-known brands. Right now, if you think about shopping online a lot of the time it's hard for some smaller brands to get found in search results but through Pinterest lens what pinners end up doing is they end up being exposed to this smaller brands and they get to see things based on what they're looking for in terms of style rather than doing branded searches . 97% of Pinterest searches are currently unbranded and 70% of their audience is open to finding about brands they've never heard of before. That's pretty cool. Also, something that's interesting that people should be looking at is leveraging existing platforms and partnerships. What I would say is either optimize where your audience is already like on Google, Pinterest, Instagram or Amazon or partner with an image recognition tech provider to integrate it into your own platform. If you're just starting out I would say go where your audience is already but if you're ready to take that next leap there are different providers such as the ViSenze, slice  that can help with that integration. Also, capitalize on impulse buying this is something that-- I think it's a funny thing to say but there are some studies that 72% of pinners say that the platform inspires them to shop when they aren't actually looking for anything. That's pretty huge and I think people or brands should take advantage of that. The other thing that I'd like to share ist hat visual search can also be used in real life. If you can integrate it into your in-store experience it could also create other opportunities to increase in-store visits. For example, Alibaba and Amazon both brought this type of tech into their change rooms to help people shop more easily. Alibaba brought in these fashion AI mirrors into the guest change rooms to suggest other accessories and different color options for what they tried on to help them find what they're looking for and Amazon created this cool tech-enabled mirror that projects clothing onto customers so that they can see what they look like without actually trying it on I mean that's pretty cool stuff. Last but not least, increasing revenue Gartner predicts that at 2021 e-commerce brands who optimized for voice and visual search will increase profits by up to 30%. That's huge. Obviously this is a prediction but I think it's worth thinking about how you can integrate this type of technology into your strategy and into your content and into your search practices because it's coming, younger people are using it, younger people are thinking about it. If you miss the boat now you'd just be catching up later all this to say that visual search is a cool new feature but you also have to think about how to optimize for it because it's not yet perfect. It is a technology it is constantly evolving. In my conference, I shared some tactics and techniques to optimize for visual search and some of those things included everything that you do currently for image search can also be applied for visual search. Make sure to think about your image size and keywords and all tags and all that good stuff. You also want to think on the technical side, making sure to submit image site maps and sync basic product data with the Google Merchant Center. Enabling rich pins for Pinterest, implementing structured data especially for product and offer and image gallery. Also, think about how you search for what you want to-- Like do your research for what you want to focus on. Don't only think about keywords, also think about finding trends there's Google trends, there's a monthly Pinterest trend report, there's all kinds of cool stuff that you can use to make your content super cool. My last point is to think about what's next. Visual sentiment analysis to understand the emotion of users when they're on your social media channels for example. How you can integrate visual search into your strategy even if it's not for fashion or home decor brands. Think about real estate think about food and beverage, think about hotels, for example. Also think about all the new integrations that you could do with a visual search like the augmented reality example I gave earlier, machine learning. There's so much that's coming we don't even know what the possibilities will be. This is basically, think about what's coming and see how it fits with your brand and if it does then test it. Try it out. Try and integrate a few things and see if it helps you out. Peter: I must say very extensive and not sure if extensive is the right word but all-encompassing would probably be the right word. You went from the theory to far-fetched examples and went back to the examples of what people should be doing right now. What I see is, with e-commerce stores they still have, especially e-commerce is that they have a big number of products. They still have problems with generating quality and interesting images for products. How can we get them to not only show two boring pictures but get them to show pictures with people or maybe even create a video, how do you push e-commerces to do that? Joelle: I would say that it's always best to use authentic type images but in terms of product images, you really want to show your product as it is, your product on a person you want to show the different angles. You also want to show dimensions, if something is a certain size you want to show it compared to something or like in a real-life type situation. Peter: Have a banana for scale. Joelle: Yes, to scale exactly. You also want to provide context. I really love the example of when you're looking at a handbag for example, when I'm actually shopping online for a handbag I like to see how many pockets are inside. I like to see what it looks like underneath. There's things that you may not think about what your audience is looking for but you can actually look in the data for images that you do currently have, what they're actually looking for and what helps them when they're making those decisions to optimize them properly. Peter: What we see very often is companies having or creating their own photo studios within their own company so that they are able to be fast and create images when they need them. Do you think this is a good strategy or are you more of a fan of going for a big photoshoot that will deliver the best images ever? Joelle: I think that authenticity is super important. I think that you don't have to spend a lot of money to take good photos, it really depends on your budget and who you're trying to appeal to make that decision. Peter: All right. I was really wanting to ask you what should be the next steps for people that would like to go into the image or visual optimization but as you mentioned before just have good images and do good image SEO and that should be the first step, I'm I right? Joelle: Yes, definitely that's right and you also want to optimize on the back-end in terms of connecting it with the Merchant Center and if for Pinterest it'd be Pinterest catalogs so that the data is connected with those images and they're indexed properly. Peter: All right excellent. We're at the 21-minute mark and I think we are good with the presentation. Joelle thank you very much for summing up your presentation from Moscone. Where can people find you who? Who would like to talk to you what are your next things you have something with the whiteboard Friday planned, is that right? Joelle: Yes. I'll be doing a whiteboard Friday. It's coming up soon and it's on the same topic. Check it out, I'll give some tips there on visual search as well. Peter: All right and of course I will add your presentation, the slides into the show notes so there's people and of course links to your LinkedIn and your company and everything else so that people can see and follow your presentation when they listen to the podcast. Joelle: Perfect, thank you. Peter: I think that's it. Thank you very much for being the guest in the podcast. Thank you for-- it's probably very early in the morning for you. Joelle: It's actually close to lunchtime [laughs]. Peter: Wow, all right. I'm not that good with different time zones. Okay, that's it. Thank you very much for being on the podcast. I'll see you around. Joelle: Thanks, Peter.

Another speaker from the Mozon conference, Paul Shapiro is the person behind one of the most important SO subreddits, /r/bigSEO, he has a very unique blog on Search Wilderness and runs a Technical SEO conference. Here are his slides from the presentation, and you should go and check out his blog post, where you can find all the code that he talks about in the presentation. Redefining Technical SEO, #MozCon 2019 by Paul Shapiro from Paul Shapiro Here is the transcript of the podcast: Paul Shapiro: There are four types of technical SEO. [music] Peter Mesarec: This is Time for Marketing, the marketing podcast that will tell you everything you've missed when you didn't attend the marketing conference. [music] Peter: Hello and welcome to the Time for Marketing, the podcast that brings you all of the information from the marketing conferences that you have missed or were not able to attend. This is episode number 23. We are big into our second year of podcasting. My name is still, from the beginning to the end, Peter and I'm your host for the podcast. If you love the podcast, of course, go and subscribe. If you would like to be on our newsletter or mailing list, you can find it on our website timeformarketing.com. All of that just to start off because we have to go directly into our content. We have a great guest here with us today. Paul Shapiro, hello and welcome to the podcast. Paul: Hi, Peter. Thanks for having me. Peter: Paul, you live in or around New York. How is living in one of the best, biggest, and other great things, cities in the world? Paul: It is the best. It's the best to be living in the best city. [chuckles] Actually, I just moved from Boston although I'm from the area originally. It's nice to be home. Peter: Do you people from New York regularly take a stroll down the-- I just forgot the name of the giant park that you have down there. Paul: Central Park. Peter: Do you just daily go there or is that another thing and we just only feel that Hollywood movies show that to us? Paul: It's not that close to where I am currently. Growing up as a child, I used to always go to Central Park. It was definitely a place where I spent a lot of time. New Yorkers certainly go to Central Park and it's been fine there. Peter: One of the best things that I've thought about New York is that you are in probably the greatest metropolitan area, but you can take the subway, Paul, where you call the local train directly to the beach and you can go swimming. It's very close and this is a really great thing. Not a lot of big cities have things like that. Paul: That's true. I think I probably take enough for granted, but it is nice. Peter: Paul, right now, people probably know you. You've done a lot of great things on the internet, especially people that like to work on and about SEO. There is a nice quote they found about you on the internet. It says, "In a world filled with shitty blog posts that rehash the same info in different ways, Paul's articles are always a treat to read." You are the partner and head of SEO of the catalyst agency and you are the founder of the big SEO subreddit. Tell us a bit more about how you got into SEO and why do you think that SEO is if you do think that SEO is the best channel in the world. Paul: I got into SEO by no spectacular means. I think a lot of people in the industry have much more impressive stories than I do. It was the job that I got into right after university. I'd graduated, had a mild interest in marketing, and actually was looking to get into social media marketing and couldn't find any jobs. At least no companies were willing to hire me for such a role. It just so happened that in my formative years in high school and earlier, instead of working a typical retail job or McDonald's, I did freelance web design and development. I didn't even know what SEO was when I graduated, but I applied to one SEO job and I got that one. I was educated afterwards why it was such a great fit for me. I've been working in the industry ever since. Peter: All right. You are known for a separated big SEO. It has become one of the important parts of where people go to find SEO-related questions. Do you think that reddit as a community has an added value compared to other maybe Slack communities or Telegram communities or even just websites? Paul: Yes. It fills an interesting need. I'm on a lot of Slack communities and private chat rooms. They're great because you're only talking to certain people. It's completely private. That information is not going to be shared around. It serves its purpose and then there's much more public channels and there is reddit, which is in between. It is both a public platform. People can see what you're saying. A lot of people tend to anonymize themselves. They don't use their real names. They use pseudonyms. They create new accounts just to ask a certain question. There's a level of privacy. People could be a little bit more real in a way while still making a public statement or asking a question in public. I think we've done a good job and we still try to make big SEO a place where we can have someone to facilitate that communication in the industry. Peter: Yes, that is all true. Let's go to the topic at hand. You spoke at MozCon 2019. You're actually the second speaker for MozCon in row. I just spoke actually a couple of hours ago with Luke Carthy. He is the episode before you, the episode number 22. How was your experience of MozCon? Was this your first time at-- Paul: Yes. MozCon is a fantastic conference. It's one of the few in the industry that I would recommend. The other being in the conference that I founded TechSEO Boost. It's a conference dedicated to technical SEO. It was my second MozCon. I've been to MozCon once before back in 2015. I always had this yearning to come back. It was a pleasure for me to be actually asked to speak and present on technical SEO at a conference that I truly respect in the industry. Peter: Okay. Your presentation was really finding technical SEO. Here are your five minutes so that you sum up your presentation and then we'll talk about it. Paul: The presentation was redefining technical SEO. Started out painting the picture of the SEO, but we've been taught of having three different pillars, being we're catering to relevance, which is content strategy catering to authority, which is link building, link development, digital PR. There's this third one, which is "technical SEO." That traditional definition of that technical SEO is things that pertain to basically crawling and indexing, which in some ways is a limited definition and a definition that sometimes creates a schism in the industry. You have people that gravitate toward a creative content side of things and your people that gravitate towards the technical side of things. This results in some fighting. You have articles. One of the bigger ones that came out was this technical SEO is makeup by Clayburn Griffin on Search Engine Land, which was quite inflammatory. It was making the point that it's not too hard to get technical SEO to a point that is good enough, but content is in some ways more difficult to achieve. I don't disregard that. I don't think it's wrong. I think the reason why people come to that conclusion is because they are defining technical SEO wrong. In my conference, we had speaker the first year, Russ Jones from Moz. He had a definition for what technical SEO is. I don't have the quote right in front of me, but I'll summarize it as, "The application of a technical skill set to other facets of SEO." Clearly, this definition encapsulates a whole lot more. I posit even further that there are four types of technical SEO within that. The first one is what I called checklist technical SEO. This is things that pertain to crawling and indexing but are automatable. There are tools that can help get you there. In some ways, you can completely automate the task. There's general technical SEO which, again, are things that pertain to crawling and indexing, but they're little higher skill, less automatable. For instance, finding a bug in the CNS that is hindering crawling. That would be an example of a general technical SEO versus checklist technical SEO, which would be checking the box. Does this web page have a canonical peg that's properly formatted? The third bucket is what I call blurry lines, technical SEO. There are series of jobs that often fall to us as SEO practitioners. They're somewhat technical, but they're not necessarily meant to be the job of the SEO. I could easily fall to someone who works in content web development. I'm talking about things like page speed optimization, web performance optimization, advanced analytics implementation. Again, things that fall with a SEO practitioner but aren't necessarily a SEO and they're quite technical in nature sometimes. The last bucket, which I focused most of my presentation on, which was what I call advanced applied technical SEO. This is really the application of those technical skill sets to all areas of SEO. I went through a series of examples of how you could write a computer program to do a natural language processing analysis to enhance on-page copy. Doing on-page SEO is not inherently a technical SEO task. When you start applying concepts like data science and other areas of engineering and these technical skill sets, it could be a technical SEO task. I went through the gamut. I went through link building, how you can automate things with Wayback Machine and the Moz API and pull insights for content variation and apply machine learning, and when you start to look at technical SEO this way as being a source of talent and skills applied to all areas of technical SEO that it becomes much more important and certainly as a makeup. Peter: All right. That was excellent, especially the last point of the three I think is very important for people. Every SEO should obviously, from what we had in your presentations. be a bit of a programmer. The main question usually is how much of a programmer should I be? Where should I go and how much should I learn to be a great SEO? Paul: I would say this. There are some clear advantages to knowing some programming. By all means, I don't think it's necessary to be an expert programmer. Working an SEO, I do think it will help you if you are. What I do advocate for is understanding computer programming a little bit, understanding the underlying logic, being able to write very, very simple programs. There's clear advantages to having that as a skill. One is that you'll understand how all the puzzle pieces fit together. When you're working with an engineering team or a developer on a website, you understand where they're coming from. You could communicate to them better. They'll have more respect for you. They're more likely to take you seriously. You'll make better suggestions and you'll be able to do some more of these more sophisticated things. Furthermore, getting these very, very basic skill sets is not that challenging. There's a million in one places to learn this online and, honestly, get the basics done in probably a 30-minute YouTube video. That's my position. Peter: Of course. A lot of the things, you can just program with Google Docs and Google Sheets with a bit more of a technical knowledge that you need to go and check all the boxes in [unintelligible 00:14:46] to do your technical audit. Technical SEO is usually seen as something that is really important with big websites, especially e-commerce websites that have millions of URLs where crawl budget is important, et cetera. How important do you see a technical SEO for companies that have smaller websites, especially for B2B companies? Paul: Well, I think it's quite logical when you look at it from a larger website perspective. You have all sorts of crawling and indexing issues that can emerge due to scale. When you look at that broader definition that I presented in my MozCon presentation of being the application of technical things in other ways, I think it's quite applicable to small pages. If you're writing a better web page, whether you have five pages on your site or a hundred or 10,000 or a million, being able to enhance what you're doing there, for instance, it doesn't matter how many pages you have. You're doing better work. Peter: All right. Can you give us a couple of places where people can go and learn technical SEO? Of course, one of them is your website Search Wilderness. The subreddit, big SEO. What are the other places? Paul: You can check out my MozCon presentation on SlideShare. My blog searchwilderness.com is littered with examples. There is an upcoming Whiteboard Friday on Moz where I talk a little bit about this topic. Lastly, I've mentioned my conference. My conference is free. We only have a limited space in person, but we make everything available online to these streams and all past recordings are also available. Check out that. Peter: All right. This is our 17-minute mark and we should be wrapping it up. Paul, tell us where can people find you and what are your future conference plans so that people can come and listen to your presentations. Paul: Yes. My personal blog is searchwilderness.com. The agency I work for is Catalyst. It's catalystdigital.com. My twitter account is by fighto, F-I-G-H-T-O. I'm posting there all the time. In terms of conferences, I am speaking at UnGagged in Los Angeles in November. In Europe, I am speaking at SMX Advanced Europe in Berlin and We Love SEO in Paris. They're both end of September and beginning of October. Peter: All right. A couple of times, you're coming to Europe. Well, my next task is to go and check out all of the presentations or recordings that you have from your conference. I must say I haven't really heard about your conference in the past. I'm from Europe, you're from up there, so it's a big place. That's it. Thank you very much for being on the podcast and I hope to see you around. Paul: Yes, it's my pleasure.

Peter Watt's big canvas Australian historicals have garnered a popular following far beyond the shores of his homeland. And that's how Peter - a man of action who's been described as “the Australian Wilbur Smith” - likes it, because he's always had a primary aim of entertaining readers and elevating Aussie stories to international notice. Hi there, I'm your host Jenny Wheeler and today Peter talks about living his dream life – volunteer fire fighting for six months of the year and writing his new historical series in the other six . Six things you'll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: Why he's got the ideal lifeHow Wallarie became a star in GermanyThe little known history that excites himHow his passion for Aussie history has inspired othersThe writers he admires the mostWhat he'd do differently next time: (you'll be surprised!) Website: http://www.peterwatt.com Facebook:  (Fans of Peter Watt books - Public group) https://www.facebook.com/groups/60777773968/  What follows is a "near as" transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here's Peter. .  Hello there Peter and welcome to the show, it's great to have you with us. How Peter got started as an author Peter:  Hello Jenny and 'Kia Ora' to all my New Zealand readers. (Ed note: Kia Ora is a Maori greeting of welcome.) Peter Watt: Author and volunteer fire fighter Jenny:  That's fantastic, and you do have a lot of New Zealand readers.  We'll get on to that.  But beginning at the beginning, I always like to ask this question although it's maybe a little clichéd – was there a “Once Upon a Time” moment when you decided that you wanted to write fiction?  And if so, what was the catalyst for it? Peter:  Yes, well I've looked at this question many times and I think I was aged 7 sitting on a tractor …. driving round and round in circles, and of course in those days there were no cabins, you just sucked in the diesel and sucked up the dust, and I thought to myself, I'm going to start creating stories in my head so I don't go mad.  It started there, Jenny. Jenny:  But it took you a long time then to get round to doing it. Peter:  Yes, you know, we make the mistake of letting life get in the way and not devoting ourselves to what we really want to do.  I was about 50 when I commenced writing “Cry of the Curlew” (Book One in the Frontier series) and from there it's been history, with all the other books following. Cry of the Curlew: #1 in the Frontier series Jenny:  Did you always know it would be historical fiction that you would want to write? Peter:  Yes, most definitely.  I was influenced by James A. Michener, Leon Uris and many of those other American writers who tended to write with the historical background. I always thought that our part of the world, Australia and New Zealand, had got very little exposure in literature, so I devoted myself to that.  Jenny:  I know you've said that actually you probably have been responsible for a little bit of a tourist boom drawing people to Australia, having become interested in the Australian stories, so you've been successful at that. Peter:  Yes, it's nice when I receive emails from American readers who say, you know we never thought about coming to Australia until we read one of your books.  And I would sometimes meet them at the airport and give them a bit of a guided tour. Peter's 12-book Aussie family saga  Jenny:  Fantastic!  What a lovely thing.  You've led a remarkably adventurous life and we'll get onto that, but your series – you've got a 12 books Frontier series which is a very big family drama, in fact it follows the rivalry between two families and now you've started a new series, The Queen's Colonial.  There have been a few stand alones and I think a Papua New Guinea trilogy in the middle there somewhere, but let's talk about the latest book,

Andrew and Peter explore the world of Thai magic and occultism. Talking about the importance of meta, self cultivation, personal growth and how they all relate to the intense practices of Thailands indigenous magic. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Peter on FB here and at his website here Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript  ANDREW: [00:00:00] Welcome, everybody, to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Peter Jenx. And for those who don't know Peter Jenx, he is the author of a massive and intriguing tome, called Thai Occult. And it's really interesting to meet with somebody and talk with people who are involved in non-western [00:00:30] cultures and other ways of practicing magic that don't kind of come out of, you know, say, the Golden Dawn, or Wicca, or these other things, which are all lovely, but I think it's really interesting to get a dive into, you know, other kinds of worldviews and magic and all of those things. So really, that's why, you know, when Peter and I connected, I thought he'd be a great fit for being on the show. But for those who don't know you, Peter, who are you? PETER: And ... [00:01:00] Well, I'm an aging Englishman stuck in Chiang Mai at the moment. I've been here, been living in Thailand, since 2002, but first visited here in 1991. Which is kind of before its main economic explosion and everything else. And then, come from a musical background, working in music in Manchester, worked a lot with gigs, run rather interesting [00:01:30] night clubs in Manchester, and also been a practitioner of Tai Chi for like 20 years. So, I think everything's always pulled me East, which is why I really ... the first … on the first visit, I kind of knew I'd end up living here. It fits. ANDREW: Yeah, it's interesting how that works, right? You know, I was talking with somebody yesterday about, you know, I come from a Scottish background, [00:02:00] even though I was born and raised in Toronto, and they're like, “Oh, well, have you've been to Scotland?” And I'm like, “No, I haven't.” I mean, I'm curious, but I find I'm much more drawn to the East, you know? And I spent a bit of time in Thailand and a chunk of time in India, and you know, I was in China last year, and every time I return to the East, I always have this sense of ease that emerges that's quite different than what I experience, you know, living in Toronto. It's like, [00:02:30] that there are these places and cultures that are suited to our nature in ways that we might not even be able to explain or understand, you know? PETER: Well, I think it's working. I think at first when we come here, we are given space. And it's a space that we're not necessarily given in the West. Also, what I experienced when I first came here was a realization that what I'd always felt, regarding nature and regarding what [00:03:00] I perceive as magic in the West, was correct. It … Because here it is expressed in a much deeper way than it is in England, in particular. I don't know … And also, I think, you know, we need the strangeness to grow. Yeah, and sometimes part of any growth, as far as I'm concerned, is the process of change and [00:03:30] if you go to an alien culture, you are constantly challenged to change, and that can be astonishingly refreshing for us. And .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that, for sure, and also that that idea that, you know, I mean, there are other ways of looking at the world and nature, you know, I mean this … the word animism has been, you know, being kicked around a lot and sort of gained a lot of ground as sort of a word [00:04:00] for some of the kind of world view that we might be talking about. And you know, I think that that's, that's both part of it. You know, for me, going … they're going to other places, and you and my involvement in and initiation in Afro-Cuban Lukumí, there is this sort of world view at play where plants are alive and have energies and consciousness, and you know, there's this interconnectedness between everything that [00:04:30] isn't really common, even amongst magical practitioners, at least in my experience, kind of growing up. PETER: Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those … [sigh] You know, the funny thing is … Okay. I had to act like myself to do this book. I have not been able to read other but … other magical books at all. Otherwise, it would have kind of diluted or influenced what I was going to do. The whole time I've spent here has been really a time to learn how not to [00:05:00] think and influence what is around you, and if you do that, you gain the natural focus that comes with the occult practices of this land, and that allows the nature to come through. But I always perceived this as just the Thai occult. Everybody else calls it Thai animism. [laughing] So I'm just getting used to the fact that it is probably animism, but everybody … all the people I deal with [00:05:30] all refer to it as an occult practice, but as an animist practice, it dates back thousands of years and it is uninterrupted now, that's quite rare in the world, as far as I know. I haven't studied anything else in depth, deliberately. And because of that, the depth of what I've been able to write about and the depth of understanding that is available is really off the planet as far as I'm concerned, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, [00:06:00] I mean, there's such a difference between, you know, living practices that date way back, you know, you know with the Buddha, Afro-Cuban Lukumí stuff in Orisha tradition, it's one of those things where … When we start talking about divination in those systems, often people are quite astounded, and I know I was really astounded at the kinds of things that are included in the wisdom and specificity and all of these kinds of things. And, [00:06:30] you know, it's … In the end, the explanation is simple. You've had a lot of very deep, intelligent, mystical people pondering the human condition and connecting to the spirit world for thousands of years and passing on that information and allowing it to accumulate. And it provides such a deep insight into human, you know, human nature and human problems because you [00:07:00] know, although the nature of the problems changes with modernity and, and so on, the nature of being human really doesn't, I don't think. PETER: Well, that actually depends on the culture, though, because if you look at the Thai system, the things that it offers are the things that people, because of this region require, right? So, you know, this has been a very dangerous region over the thousands of years, and [00:07:30] they've been lucky enough to have the influence of Buddhism, which always overrides ancient animist practices, so, things can … They can remain who they are, while attaining higher spirituality, if that makes sense.  And really because of, you know, the rough nature of the living in the wild, and the constant wars in the region, most of the things that they have worked out to offer, and create, for their devotees are [00:08:00] related to protection in many forms, impenetrable skin, invincibility, ways to bounce back black magic, ways to change your fate, ways to attract people, ways to become popular, ways to gain good fortune, and it's all about, at the core of it all, it's actually all about the person as well, because they're being given an advantage that [00:08:30] they've got to work with. So, it's not just abracadabra, like wham! Okay. Now you're popular. Yeah, they might give you the attribute of being popular. But if you're a bit of a twat it's not going to work. Right.  So everything that they create is all about the development of the person themselves, being given an advantage that they have to grow into, which is typical of what we were talking about earlier, whereby the constant process [00:09:00] of change is also, can be -- we go backwards sometimes, can be the process towards either becoming a better person or more magical or however you want to see it. Yeah? And throughout the thousands of years that they developed it here, they've discovered what is actually supernatural in nature, and they have their own versions of it. Which, how the hell did they discover that? I don't know, but you know, special people discover [00:09:30] special things. They discover what human products they can use for rather powerful spells, they discover all the plants independently, often, of other approaches. So, the odd time, I've shared a picture of a tree .... [ringing phone] ANDREW: Oh! Now the phone's going to ring, just let it finish. It's not gonna … [00:10:11] I think I can make it stop. All right. You know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to unplug the phone. How about that? Problem solved. PETER: [laughing] Yeah, that's easy. So, you need, you need, you need that stick I showed you earlier. ANDREW: I know right? You know, I do. Yeah, before we started, let's just continue. PETER: So I'll go back in … I'll let you edit that out later. I'll just go back into where it was. ANDREW: Yeah, perfect.  PETER: So like one time, I posted a picture of a particular tree that has, that produces a particular wood [00:10:41] that the Thais use in many magical amulets, called amudam. I mean there are legends, it's the tree that you'd climb to get out of hell, because it's impossible to climb, because of huge spikes on the trunk. And it was possibly … There was a fantastic discussion ensued, because it was also a magical wood in pretty much every other system that I was in contact with at that time through the Facebook page. And the incredulity [00:11:11] of that between everybody was really rather wonderful. You know, it kind of just pulled everybody together. And … ANDREW: That's animism, right? That's the tree telling you what it wants to do, right? You know, and  telling everybody like the same thing. It's like, hey, I can help you with this thing. You know, if you work with me, you know, and that's what's really profound about these things, I think. PETER: Yes, very much so. It's … And [00:11:41] the more kind of I've learned about things, you know, I just, we were discussing about a person earlier, about lightning, and how lightning can make things magical. And, you know, I was chatting with a particularly learned ajahm from a very old lineage called Ajahm [?], Ajahm Tiger. With the help of my partner, of course, and he was telling me, really, if a lightning strikes [00:12:11] a tree, its use depends on the effect of the lightning on the tree. Like, if it blows off the bark in the middle, that area is used for the handles of magical knives; if it strikes another area of the tree, it's used for something else. So, depending even on how a supernatural occurrence like a lightning strike hits something, it can produce all [00:12:41] sorts of different results. And they … At the time we were having this chat, it was really rather mind-blowing that people have spent generations upon generations studying the effects of these supernatural occurrences.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that … It's so foreign to people living in cities, you know, but I mean, when you start spending time in nature and start consistently spending time in nature, [00:13:11] you know, it really, it really can start to speak to you after a while, right? You know, I spent … There's a site where we used to go and do ceremonies, every month, for almost two years, and kind of towards the end of that time, I did a 10-day retreat by myself where I just hung out in the woods and fasted and did my own rituals and stuff like that. And the amount of things [00:13:41] that I learned from that land and from the plants and the kinds of things that got revealed to me ... and even just like sort of unexpected beautiful things, you know.  There was this cherry tree and you know, I knew it was a cherry tree, we'd seen the flowers, it was beautiful, and so on, but the thing that was amazing, because I was there all day, every day, for that period of time, when I [00:14:11] was there, the sap was coming out and so there were these little reddish golden amber blobs on the tree from the sap emerging, and the tree was in the west from where we ... where I usually was, and when I looked up, toward sunset, all of those were glowing like a stained glass window, right? And so there are these moments of profound beauty and profound transference of information, [00:14:41] and where those plants can speak to you, and if you're around them all the time, then … and you're paying attention, then you get to notice them, right? But ... PETER: Well, it's the attention. That's the thing.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: And this is why, I think, in the modern world, governments are terrified of nature, because it calls people away from what they want to do, the people to do, you know, and to be a good little drone and all the other sayings that we [00:15:11] can come out with rather pithily. But, you know, it's ... and even the medical community is now turning around and saying look, you know, to fight depression, just go and walk in the hills, go and sit in the forest. You know, but this kind of … You know, I'm lucky enough to be of an age where it was more of an actual world at the time, and this is, you know, it makes me kind [00:15:41] of put my head in my hands that people are having to be reminded to do that. You know, and the beauty that is available, the wealth that is available is astonishing. Since we moved to Chiang Mai, me and my partner have been round looking at various, some of the interesting spiritual caves in this region. And you know how, if we have time when people visit, I might take them to one or two, but there's one that I've already decided, I [00:16:11] think there's only one or two people I'll take to that particular one. It's too wild. And if … You know, if we spend the time like you have, to be able to still the mind, and treat ourselves to a little bit of solitude, we start to see these things, you know. And maybe they become more special. ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and I also think that we really need to understand and [00:16:41] respect, you know, like if we're really going to going to go into the real wilderness, you know, or real spots in nature, you know, it's something quite different, right? You know, in … Again, in my tradition, the real woods, you know, like not just like a couple plants around your yard or the park but the actual forest is a place that's somewhat feared by practitioners, not in a ... that sounds wrong. It's a place [00:17:11] that's deeply respected because it's known to be a place of power, and because it's a place of power, it's also a place of danger. You know, and so you make offerings to make sure that you're protected while you're there. You make offerings, maybe when you leave, to make sure that nothing you didn't want comes with you, you know, you make … If you're going to take anything, then you make offerings to the plants that you're going to take from, you know, and you know, it's so rare for a lot of us to have contact [00:17:41] with that deep wilderness, you know, it's something completely foreign and it's astounding, right? PETER: Well, it's … Usually at least once or twice a month, I end up going off with an ajarn, often to graveyards for graveyard ceremonies. And … Which I'm starting to document more fully. And, you know, watching, the ajarn go into, I always [00:18:11] call it ajarn world. ANDREW: Yeah, and by … What's a good translation for ajarn? Is … practitioner? teacher? Yeah. PETER: Teacher … The ajarn is a higher teacher. Yeah, but it's more than that. Yeah. It's an occultist, really. And, and watching them deal with what is there, and become open to what is there ... And, you know, I asked Ajarn Su and I've also asked Ajarn Apichai. You know, [00:18:42] often they go there to choose a ghost to do a particular task, and, to which Ajarn Apichai would, you know, often say, “Well, we've come to this graveyard, because it's a graveyard where there are many soldiers and police.” So, I normally … He said he normally tries to choose a good-natured ghost, so they don't come home with you, even though he has strong protection. And the deal is made, you know, to [00:19:12] reward the spirit when the job is done. And he knows, he can tell, within five percent, really, how effective that particular spirit's going to be. And sometimes he will go back and repeat, or just say “No, it's worked.” You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And then you go with Ajarn Su, and the same questions will be, you know, Ajarn likes to choose what are called Phi Thai Hong ghosts. And, which [00:19:42] are the ghosts of people who've died violently, before their time. And again, he said--some of them are really quite lovely--and you know, we were standing just in the graveyard, doing a love ritual, pulling a separated couple back together. And he's called, and he slaps on the side of the cremation pit. It's just two walls that focus the heat in to be [00:20:12] able to burn the body fully, in the open, in a thin, a bit of a wood, and he's calling ghosts. And you know, it was the time of year when leaves are on the floor--the leaves shed up here, some trees--and you could hear the ... something walking towards us, you know, from a particular direction.  So, he called that ghost over and came to a deal, and he said, “Oh, it's been successful and I'll come back in a [00:20:42] few days and bring the offering that I promised, and I will donate merit.” And merit is something we gain. It's a Buddhist, Thai Buddhist principle where we gain merit through good deeds, helping people. A basic form of it would be giving to charity, and, you know, these Phi Thai Hong ghosts need to collect merit to get out of hell. Eventually try and rise towards rebirth. [00:21:12] And Ajarn Su is very careful about the ghosts he chooses, only, he never forces them, he requests, he is very gentle. Otherwise, they can hurt you. Yeah. And then when we get back, both of the ajarns will always bless water, splash on feet, hands, top of head, back of neck, just to make sure nothing has been clingy, you know. So, I mean they all follow similar [00:21:42] patterns, where, you know, and if anything's taken, you request it to be taken and if you're going to work with anything, you're asking permission, and it's extremely similar all around the world except for the cultural differences. And the influences, like in this region, with Buddhism has been a particular influence. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I have so many questions, so many questions! [laughs] I guess one of my, one of  [00:22:12] my questions, though, coming out of what you just talked about … We talked about … You mentioned somewhere along the way, changing your fate, right? And I'm really curious about the idea of fate as it as it exists in this practice, you know, can you ... Can you just answer that small question for us? Tell us what that's like. [chuckles] PETER: Okay. Well, the idea of fate is … Without, I don't study horusat, which is Thai astrology. [00:22:42] Okay, but what I would say is, that I think the Thai occult corresponds to people's state of mind. Yeah? And help to get people out of the state of mind to improve themselves again, as well as realigning their faith, there's a dual motion going on here. We are given a Qatar. We have to make offerings. We [00:23:12] have to take care of something. We have to structure our lives around it. We have to take the five precepts, which are the basic things. Don't kill anybody. Stop shagging around. Don't lie, you know, etcetera etcetera. And often, besides the help of something like Rahu, which, the Thai Rahu is not the same as the Indian one, but, we praise it in a different way, which really annoys the Indians. And we [00:23:42] gain his help now, if … to do that we have to order our lives around it. So, I think it's a dual road of choosing a better path, choosing the help of somebody who is smart enough and spiritual enough to help you, and then structuring your life in a different way, and the Rahu is considered to raise your general level of good fortune. ANDREW: And Rahu is [00:24:12] what exactly? PETER: Rahu is the god that eats the sun or the moon from Indian mythology. Yeah? He's the god of eclipses. In India, they do not praise him, they're trying to get rid of him. Hmm. Yeah. They think it's horrific that the Thai people praise Rahu but usually they often consider that a period of very bad fortune is sometimes, Rahu coming into somebody's lives and influencing it without being [00:24:42] asked to come in. So, by praising him, you're going to offer your foods, the correct foods, which always have to be black. They need the numbers of seven, nine, or 15, depending on the ajahm. Different black foods, usually on the four quarters of the moon, with the full moon being the most important. Normally, it's advised to wear the Rahu on the full moon when in which [00:25:12] case it kind of feels like he's bouncing around on your chest like going to a disco. He can't … he's extremely rewarding; many ajarns swear by Rahu, but he takes a lot of work. So, I think it's a dual, being very honest about this, I think it's a dual combination, whereby we get our shit together, and then the help offered by the Rahu offered by the ajarn, will start to improve the life. ANDREW: And when we're [00:25:42] talking about fate here, are we talking about … We can be a little simplistic too, maybe for the conversation. Are we talking about it as a sense of karma, like consequences for our actions, this life, other lives, or whatever? Are we talking about like a destiny or a thing that we're ... sort of came intact from somewhere or that we need to try and achieve maybe in our life. PETER: Well, we always [00:26:12] have influence. Actually, there's three forms of influence on the brain. Okay, there's three forms of influence we consider to be three forms of influence from life. One is an astrological influence. Astrology influences the person without any doubt at all. Yeah? The second one in Thai is the influence of ghosts. Yeah? And spirits directing your life without you knowing about it. And the third one is the influence of the mind and all the silly things that the mind does can [00:26:42] be destructive. Yeah? If you … Everybody goes through periods of bad fortune, but they can have very very different reasons. Sometimes even in the Thai practices, you know, we can have a real crash of fortunes, but I was just seeing it as, it's just a part of life, man. It can't be good all the time. Yeah? It's a readjustment of yourself and of your … the way you deal with yourself. I don't like to involve things [00:27:12] like karma. I'm very practical in that respect. It's about living an open and happy life and sometimes shit goes wrong. Yeah? Through bereavement and through everything else ... ANDREW: So, go ahead. PETER: And through bereavement and through everything else, but that period then we have to kind of realign ourselves. I think focusing in on what has actually caused the problem is one of the things that we need to get away from [00:27:42] and just deal with the fact that we're in the shit. Yeah? Yeah, so that also immediately stops all the stuff that goes around in the brain or at least helps with it. Yeah? So. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, in Lukumí divination we have kind of negativity, which we call Otonawa, which means … roughly means, that which you brought with you from heaven, and it's like, it's like, yeah, this is a thing that's, [00:28:12], you can't do anything about, maybe it's part of your destiny, maybe it's just come from, come to a place where the various forces in your life make this inevitable. But now you need to just, you know, appease it, ease it, support yourself, and get through it, and then, you know, but there's no making it go away, right? You know, like there's no perfect road, right? Where we never see these things.  PETER: Well there can't be, otherwise we get so spoiled that the smallest pebble on the road would become an absolute nightmare [00:28:42] if it got into our shoes. Right? You know, we need it. We need these things to happen in life, in my opinion. Otherwise, we don't have any understanding of what life is or can be about. ANDREW: And I also … I also think it's really interesting that ... the idea of easing the mind by stopping, asking why, and looking to explain it. You know, I think that that's a place where a lot of people ... you [00:29:12] know, I mean, I read cards for people, and you know, there are certainly folks who come in for card readings who are just like: “but why, why did this happen, why did this happen?” It's like, at a certain point, why does it matter? How about you do this to make it better, you know, and yeah, it's that practicality that I think is sometimes very unsatisfying to people in certain situations, you know? PETER: Well, it's a Western thing, you know? Our minds are way too busy. You know? I live, you know, one of the core elements of [00:29:42] Thai culture is samadhi, which is [? 29:45]  that is gained through Buddhism. It is an open and clear focus whereby we're trying to separate ourselves from the mind, so you end up in a position where you can watch your mind being a bastard. Yeah? Or being a bit barmy one day. Yeah? So, eventually when you actually … You know, but I always ask people what is watching the mind? Yeah? [00:30:13]  So in my opinion, what you are doing and what you are going to learn to do, is to find out who you are, which is not often what your mind is? You know, even in our … Even in our culture, we have sayings like, what does your stomach tell you? It's not the same as what does your mind tell you? They will say, what do you think? Yeah. So, one of the aims is to eventually secure yourselves and then when you get to that point, you can start to [00:30:43] see or feel astrological influences. You can have an idea about whether you're being influenced by something else. And you can watch your mind and attempt to behave and try and calm it down, so, it doesn't cause which as much trouble. Yeah? And all these are core practices within Buddhism and Eastern philosophies. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that ability to step back [00:31:13] from what's going on in your head and basically be like, oh, take a look at that. My brain is … my brain is doing this thing in the same way that my stomach might be doing another thing in my … You know, my knee might be acting up or whatever. It's like, I'm not even those things, right, but sort of tuning down the emotions and the mind to kind of a place of somewhat lesser value or more specific value than the sort of overriding quality that we often associate with them. You [00:31:43] know, that's not easy, right? That's ... for a lot of people, especially Western people. PETER: You know, if you ever visit, an example of one of the wonderful things to do is to go and see someone like Ajarn Su, who was a monk for 18 years. So, this guy's got focus. Yeah? And recently, we went along with somebody who wanted a head tattoo. A head young [not sure if this is right? at 32:08] for metta. Yeah, for loving-kindness. Higher, the highest of the high Buddhist-style tattoos. You know, head tattoos [00:32:13] hurt. ANDREW: Yeah, I can imagine. PETER: This is done with a gun. Ajarn Su can only use a gun because he's got an arm that won't do as it's told, and, you know, the lad doing it had great difficulty controlling the screaming. And I was … I was helping out, being a bit of an assistant. And I was watching Ajarn, and he just went into his quiet place and not thought, but [00:32:43] no thinking, he was just chanting Qatar while he was doing the inside, while doing, while performing this tattoo, which took way longer than the recipient really wanted it to, and he pretty much screamed all the way through, so when we let … And then the worst thing was that if you have a tattoo with Ajarn Su, he will then give you his Yant Kru, which is, it gives … Everybody he gives tattoos to and it's a line [00:33:13] of script going along the front line at the bottom of the palm, and man, it's painful. Yeah? And as soon as, as soon as he said to me in Thai, “Oh, just hold his hand,” I thought, “Oh my God, he's really going to scream now.” And, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did. He really let go. Yeah, and then when, and then when we left Ajarn, after about 10 minutes, the guy just lit up, and he got the sun inside his face. And [00:33:43] he actually said, “Wow, now I know why I've had it done. I wasn't so sure for the last half an hour,” and it looked amazing, and we were actually leaving. But then once we left, Ajarn's neighbors from across the road came over to see him to make sure everything was okay. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? PETER: And Ajarn is such a sweet man. He kept stopping and going, “so [00:34:13] soo,” which means, you know, “you have to fight a little bit,” but doing it in such a cute way, it was like an anime, you know. And watching him not be drawn into somebody else's pain, not be influenced by somebody who is having difficulty, and retaining his own presence was a lesson in itself. It was quite astonishing, it was an amazing 30 minutes.  ANDREW: It's [00:34:44] such a … I mean, I hear in that story what I would call a profound sense of compassion that doesn't match what we normally, you know, people might go to as a sense of compassion, which is, a sense of that deeper purpose of what's at hand, a loving acknowledgment of the struggle, and a commitment to the outcome that was what was meant to ... like what was agreed to, as opposed to an avoidance of a kind [00:35:14] of suffering for that person, right? PETER: Yep, that's exactly right. And also, when he finished the tattoo, Ajarn told him, instead of keeping the five precepts, he only has to keep one. He said, “But you keep this precept,” and when he told him the one, I'm not going to say which one it is, I'm not going to divulge anything about what he said, but he said, “How does he choose the most difficult [00:35:44] one he could possibly choose for me?” I said, “Oh, he always does that!”  ANDREW: Of course.  PETER: I said, “Otherwise what's the point?” And the guy just fell around laughing? You know, he said, “How does he know?” I said, “He's an ajarn, my friend.” ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: “He probably knew as soon as you walked in.” And it was again one of those comical moments when we realize how much we have to grow in the situation we are in. But the [00:36:14] levels of metta, loving-kindness and the beauty of what they are trying to do is, it's just breathtaking. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I mean I guess, let me ask this question, and I imagine there might be a few different answers to it. But, how does, how does a person become an ajarn? PETER: In the usual route.  ANDREW: [chuckling] PETER: Okay, those … From what I can see at the moment, and this is going to change over time, as [00:36:44] the more time I spend with them, but basically everybody starts off as being some sort of devotee, using their amulets, learning the Qatar, becoming kind of known as somebody who makes an effort towards those spiritual practices. They might go off and do a few weeks, or a month, or even three months as a monk. Yeah? Which is all [00:37:14] set up within the community, and most times men will be a monk at some point in their life, for a short period of time, and then they may start helping the ahjan with rituals and helping the people who visit the samyat, which is the place of work. It's like his spiritual shop, his temple, yeah? And then, the [00:37:44] studying begins. Now the studying, we discovered, has actually got levels. And each level, it's a bit like going and getting different degrees. Each level has got what is called the khan kru associated with it and the khan kru is a construction of various objects. Like sometimes swords, sometimes flags, and [00:38:14] they're always quite different, a lot of betel nut, flowers. It depends on the lineage of the ajarn that's giving it and there are various levels of the khan kru, depending on what you study. So, the earlier levels tend to be directed towards satyam, the Thai traditional tattooing, after which you tend to learn about sunay sunay magic, which is the magic for attraction. [00:38:44] Eventually … I'm trying to remember the levels. It's something like the 8, 12, 27 but it ends up at 108. There's men. There's about eight different levels of the khan kru, and at each level you attain a certain understanding, but the khan kru is actually considered to be alive. It's considered to have life, and it helps you teach [00:39:14] you, and it can also knock you back if you're not studying enough, or being erudite enough, or not trying enough or you're just getting it wrong. Yeah? So, I … it's weighed like everything in this system. The book kind of introduces the subject of the khan kru, but the khan kru in itself could probably be a book on its own.  Ajarn Su holdes the khan kru 108, which [00:39:44] is the full witcha, which comes from a similar root word as Wiccan, by the way, the witcha is the knowledge, and a very famous monk called Kru Badung Dev, still alive, but he's bedridden and 105 and his witcha collection, his book collection is really quite something, it's off the planet and his knowledge to go along with it. When he was a monk, he had the khan kru 227, [00:40:15] which only monks can have, and then you go back to the 108, when you stop being a monk. So, often you're going to see … In Ajarn Su's samyat, there's one khan kru and it's a 108, everything, and there are a certain color to show that his teacher is still alive and they change the color when he dies.  In other samyat, you go and they'll have like five or six khan kru [00:40:45] for different subjects from different ajarns. Yeah, so you have some that stick to a certain lineage and some that go around collecting different witchas, almost like create their own lineage to start their own path, which then they can help other people along as well. It involves learning at least three scripts. It involves learning an enormous amount of Qatar, understanding the Qatar, [00:41:15] and it involves practices such as various meditational practices, like the 32 parts of the body practice for which you need a teacher but there's a brief outline in the book of it. We're about … we get to know our physical body by traveling around it. And it's split into 32 parts. There is also various meditational practices [00:41:45] towards cutting four elements within the body, but all these kind of roll along through the different levels of study. ANDREW: And so, is the title conferred by the teacher then at some point? Is that the …? PETER: The teacher decides when you move to the next level. To become an ajahm, you know, you can say, I could now turn around and say, “I'm ajarn, I'm [00:42:15] an ajarn,” but I'd be a bit of an idiot to do so, because it's really obvious that I'm not, right? Yeah. Yeah, in the same way as mastership in martial arts. You know, you always get … there's always a number of [pillocks? 42:26] who call themselves a master and they have to go through the very painful process of being beaten up by an eight-year-old at some point. You know what I mean? Yeah. Similar, you prove yourself by being good at your ajarn. ANDREW: That's interesting. I also … I'm also really fascinated by … I mean, we were talking about nature [00:42:45] earlier. Do the ajarns, like, are there any living, like do they practice in Bangkok in the center of town? Do they out in the woods? PETER: Yes, woods. Yeah. Yes. They did. There is … There are some remarkable magicians in Bangkok. Normally, they will deal with the things that people who live in the metropolis need, will help them with the promotion at work, will help them find a lover. Yeah, and [00:43:15] be more attractive, and there is those … One ajarn called Ajarn Weaver Ted [? at 21:32] who's now very famous. He's the first photograph in the book. And he's got very rich clientele, that he does spiritual work for, whatever that may entail. Yeah, some of it will be aggressive. Some of it will be protective. Some of it, you know … because in Thailand basically, [00:43:45] it's really the rich and the poor that use magic, not necessarily the middle classes. Yeah. And there's also people like Ajarn Samat, [43:57] who is one of the most remarkable satyan ajahms I've ever met. Man, he has it. He has it. Yeah? And for me, he's the best satyan ajarn in Bangkok, but he's difficult to see, he has a mostly retired clientele. His work is not beautiful. It's very old [00:44:15] style. It's very ancient witcha, but man, he has it, whoo! You know, so all these things are available for people who need it, finding the very traditional Thai ones will only be done by the Thai people, but then there are other ones who become famous outside the country as well. ANDREW: So, let me ask you this question then. So, where does where does morality fit in these kinds of practices, you know? PETER: [00:44:45] In what respect?  ANDREW: So, if someone's coming to have work done to bring a relationship back together, is that … is that seen as both people should be there and consent? Is it seen as one person who wants this to happen can do the work and that could work? You know we talked about defense and aggression and these other kinds of things. Is there a morality in [00:45:15] there? Or is that sort of purely a Western question and not even relevant? PETER: Well, it's, well, there's a morality in everything in life. It just depends on your personal standpoint. And, many ajarns nowadays, a lot of the really heavy stuff has gone back in the cupboard, because it's not needed anymore, yeah? So, but I'd say Ajarn Cau, who's a particularly lovely ajarn who I got along very well with in towards [00:45:46] Doi Saket, the mountains to the east. He only pulls lovers back together who were already married, and they have to prove it to him. Yeah, he will ask them for impossible things to get. You know, if they can, the skin off the bottom of his foot or her foot, depending on which partner wants the other partner to come back, and, and he will help them get back together, because that is an act of metta, he [00:46:16] is helping keep the couple together.  At the same time, he will basically attempt to get the person who is bringing the ... paying for the ritual to understand that all the ritual does is bring them back. It's not going to fix your relationship problems. So, if you turn around and be angry, it's not going to keep them there. This is not making a slave out of somebody, [00:46:46] yeah? So there isn't really anything aggressive within that. I mean, really, you know, people often ask the question: What is black magic in Thailand? You know, yes, then you get a different answer from everybody, but when they ask the same ajarn, the ajarn always said, well, you know attraction. He said, I might use part of somebody's skull for attraction. Esanay, [47:12] we call it, and he said, but it's just an air magic. It's not … it's [00:47:16] not black magic. He said, you're just attracting somebody, where's the harm in that? You're not kind of turning them into a slave. You're just attracting them. ANDREW: Right? If the work isn't … The work isn't geared towards removing people's free will. The work is geared towards providing opportunity, and that opportunity, especially sort of based on what you said in the earlier part of the conversation too, that opportunity is both access [00:47:46] to the opportunity of that thing and also the opportunity to grow as a person to embody that thing. PETER: Exactly.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: Yeah. So, you know other people think the use of any human materials is black magic in itself, which I don't, I don't consider it to be. There's all sorts of … We'll not get into the Thai thoughts about death, because you know, everybody does … they're not … well, you know, it's just part of life. And generally, most … some ajarns [00:48:16] think that anything with human materials is black magic. Some ajarns only think that anything that is forceful is black magic, anything that is cursing is black magic, and they really try not to do it nowadays. ANDREW: Hmm. PETER: Yeah, they will do something called a kong ritual, which is a ritual. It's like a controlling ritual you do in the graveyard and it's to rebalance [00:48:46] some sort of relationship. A work relationship, your boss is being a bit of a bastard to you, etc. You'll bring a kong ritual just to slap him down a little bit, slap him down for a few months, let the relationship become better between you, and then it wears off. And they are extremely effective, these. But then, you know, you get people coming forward wanting people hurt or dead or [00:49:16] forced into bankruptcy or something serious and to be honest nowadays, yes, it can be done, but most ajarns will say no. And the only … And there's some very knowledgeable people about cursing in this city. Terrifyingly knowledgeable, but they just choose not to do it unless it's for the right reason. Yeah, because you know, they're bringing … They're forcing something, they're bringing something [00:49:46] difficult to themselves. Everybody nowadays is now trying to strike the correct balance. ANDREW: Hmm. And do you see that shift as coming out of a shift in cultural values, or is it a shift in the difference in the quality of life now versus in the past? PETER: It's both, you know, the government's also … 10 to 15 years ago, they started clamping [00:50:16] down, they started stopping people who had died violently being buried. Yeah? Originally …. Only anybody who died a difficult death, which basically reflects like a really bad karma was buried, everybody else was burnt, right? So, these ground … And they're exactly the people that the ajarns want to use the [00:50:47] products from, yeah? And they basically stopped doing that 10 to 15 years ago. So, slowly but surely, that source is being exhausted. You know, Thailand is becoming a very developed country, access to the human materials is becoming extremely difficult, and, you know, it's not as wild here as it used to be, people need more, less protection in many ways, more metta, [00:51:17] more senay, … Because now you know the times have changed. Gone are the days where they could just chop a corpse's head off and leave a watermelon. You know, now they believe that a better protection is to have so much metta that somebody doesn't want to hurt you anyway, is to be such a lovely person that attracts other people, it makes you difficult to attack, you know, so as cultures develop the way they use [00:51:47] their magical knowledge develops, which is actually the sign of any living form of magic, isn't it? ANDREW: Well, it reminds me of martial arts practice, right? You know, I mean, a lot of people start off in you know, something a little harder like karate or whatever, and you know, they want to fight and use their muscles and whatever, and as you, you know, hopefully as you age and get a little wiser, you know, you move to something more circular and more soft and you know, like, you know, nothing … Not that you can't, you know, throw [00:52:17] that punch if you need to but it's often more like, oh, I can just redirect this and just flow with things in a completely different manner and therefore I won't have that problem any more. PETER: Oh, I always recommend running away. It's fucking great for avoiding problems. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, right? Exactly. [laughing]  ANDREW: Just don't be there in the first place, right? PETER: And also … Exactly, the greatest defense! I mean, this is not counting somebody who comes up being an absolute idiot. In which case, finish it and then run away. Yeah? I mean, [00:52:47] I've [? 52:49] done martial arts for about 20 years. But really, it should just be about happiness, physical comfort, you know, nothing more difficult to attack than somebody who's happy, you know, and that relates to what we were just saying about the magic as well. You know, it's … As soon as you're aggressive, it gives people something to hang onto. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, and possibly puts you off balance, then, right? PETER: Well, [00:53:17] everything goes to your head.  ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. PETER: And if what you're trying to do is not to let it go, though, because that raises your center of balance as well, and you become slow and you tense. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep.  PETER: So, it's all … they're very interrelated in many respects, actually, you know, and just retaining that open clear mind rather than being pulled by your emotions all the time, you know. It's … and in many ways, to get the martial arts, is one of them. Meditation [00:53:47] works. You know, what have you found works, Andrew, for you? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean meditation. I did martial arts for a long time. Martial arts was a good road for getting over being angry, to me. You know, I sort of worked through my anger there in an environment where I could sort of explore power dynamics very openly. And yeah, just, you know, returning, you know, returning my attention back always to like, I [00:54:17] don't know how to put it. So, there's you know, there's that transcendent sort of samadhi kind of loss of attachment to yourself and your daily life. You know, so that piece of it combined with just very practical cultivation of self and a sustainable life, right? Like just, what do I need? What do I need to do? Where am I showing up? Where do I feel I'm lacking? Why do I feel I'm lacking there? Is [00:54:47] there something I actually need and just, you know, kind of cycling through those different patterns of, I guess, growth-orientated questions. And, you know, it's … It does wonders for removing unhelpful hungers and, you know, and sort of recognizing the own … my own internal bullshit for what it is, which, then, allows me to show up more, right?  PETER: Well, there's nothing like … Yeah, there's nothing like a good bit of bullshit within ourselves as well, you know? There's [00:55:17] many things that we can pull on.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, there's many, many, there's many advantages to these things, but it's just knowing what they are … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep. PETER: … Is the difficult thing and not being led by them, you know, and I'm sure you'd agree that when we get, you know, when you get past the monkey mind, as they call it here.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: You know the relation … Your relationship with time changes, your relationship with people changes.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  PETER: You know, the way you can [00:55:47] sit with people changes … ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: The way, you know, the joy of life changes. ANDREW: And the way in which people receive you changes.  PETER: Completely.  ANDREW: Right? Because when you … When you show up and you're genuinely present with other people, they feel that, you know, and if you have, you know, if you want to call it metta, it's not really a word I would use, but you know, but you know, compassion or you know, those … That sort of openness to other people and seeing them for who they are without judgments or overt attachments. That's a [00:56:17] completely different dynamic, right? That goes to a completely different place than, you know, when you show up and you're just like, oh my God, I so need this or that or whatever from you. Right? PETER: Well, it's also, I mean, I'm very lucky to be able to go anywhere in Thailand, literally, anywhere. You know? My partner's family, we were there a few months ago, and I said, “oh, I'm gonna go to Surat Veree [? 56:43] because I want to photograph this particular shrine for the book.” And I said, “Where is the bus [00:56:47] go from, the minibus? She said, “Oh, from there.” And so, I've got up at like 4:00 o'clock, I got the 5 o'clock bus, I was there by 6, and the driver dropped me off as close as he could to the temple. Ten seconds later, a motorbike boy came up, took me to visit the temple. We had a quick bit of breakfast together, which I paid for, of course, it was very nice. Then I did the photographs, he waited for me, he drove me back. I jumped on the next mini bus which arrived seconds later, and I rode back up to Bangkok and back to [00:57:17] family home in about four hours, three and a half hours. And the response was, “How have you done that? How?” Yeah, I said, well, it just kind of happens. If you just connect to people, you know, he's not the driver of a minibus. He's a man who's having to get through a day and hopefully support his family, you know? He is not just a motorbike guy, he might be an older [00:57:47] man who's had a very interesting life, and you treat him with some respect. You know, if you look, you look people in the eye, you make those connections, you open your heart. ANDREW: Yeah. Well when I was in India, I wanted to go to Bodghaya, where the Buddha was enlightened? Or, I'm sorry, where the Buddha first preached the dharma, right? And, you know, and I went … So I wanted to go to these places, but there's [00:58:17] nothing there, right, there's just temples. It's just a city of temples and a few restaurants, things to support people, but nobody … I don't think people really live there or whatever and there's definitely no trains or whatever. So I arrived in the nearest city and--which wasn't that far away--but there was this huge strike there that day, and I was trying to find somebody who'd be willing to take me, 'cause I was only there for a day because I left it to sort of towards the end of my trip, [00:58:47] because I was trying to kind of hit a couple of important places, and two things happened, which remind me exactly of this conversation.  So, one was, I was walking down the street, and it was a long street with a big park and government building, I think, on the other side, and it was just this huge fence that ran along this massive park all the way along. There's no easy way there, no gates, you would have to climb it and it was all houses on the other side and all the houses were basically [00:59:17] attached and there's no roads or alleys or whatever.  And I'm like mid-block, and then I hear this huge ruckus and the people who are protesting are coming down the street, and there's this mob of people, with sticks and signs, and they're yelling and screaming and whatever, and I look at the crowd and I turn around and I look and there's this gentleman standing in his door, and I just look at him and I point at myself and I point inside his house and he's just like, yes, [00:59:47] like just, waved with his hands, like yes, come in my house [laughing], and so we go in his house. He closes the door. We wait for everybody to pass. And he had no English, you know, my Hindi is not particularly, you know, I knew a few things like hello, and thank you, and whatever, and we just waited in his house and stood there and looked at each other very pleasantly and peacefully and whatever. And then you know, when it was obvious that this, the sound had passed and the people were gone. He opened the door, and looked out, and then he gave me a pat on the back [01:00:17] and you know, sent me on my way.  And then a few minutes later, I ran into this guy who was driving a, like one of those cycle rickshaws, this really older gentleman, and I got … I just like looked at him and I'm like, “I want to go here,” and he's like, “sure!” And so, he took me and we rode this bicycle through the countryside and stopped at a couple farms and all these amazing things. And then, when we got there, on top of paying him for his time, I also bought him lunch. And we just [01:00:47] sat there. He also had, you know, basically no English and we just sat there eating together and looking at each other and smiling. And you know, there's such a connection that can happen when you're open to those things, and like I say, when you're going for a purpose and when you go in with a certain way, that road can just open for you, right? You know? PETER: It just happens … and it really happens because you're not thinking …  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And by not thinking, you're taking away the barriers that people can come, [01:01:17] that generally stop people relating to you… ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.  PETER: You know, it's a remarkable period of time here, you know, but, especially this last few years, going through the process of doing all this work, because it just, it just happened. Just, it was just, doors kept opening and things kept telling me what to do next, and you [01:01:47] know, and then we got to the point where this, you know, we managed to finish this work. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And yeah, there were bits where it wasn't easy, but it's still found a way to be done.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  PETER: And you know, it's … Even my partner sometimes says, “How have you done this?” [laughing] ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.  PETER: You know. “How have you done it?” Well it kind of just gave me the opportunity to do it and then it kind of did itself.  ANDREW: Yeah. They meet you [01:02:17] halfway. You know? Or more than halfway sometimes, right? Yeah.  PETER: Yeah, they do. And also, I've really been wanting, you know, I've kind of resisted it for the first, God, 20 years of coming here … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: Because that was apparent when I first came over.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And kind of waited until I was ready to kind of do it. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, it's been quite old and extremely rewarding and rather wonderful. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. It's [01:02:47] fantastic. Well, I mean, maybe, we've been on the phone for a long time here. Maybe we should wrap this up, because I could talk to you all day. This is a wonderful conversation. So, first of all ... PETER: It'd be nice with a cup of tea and a biscuit, wouldn't it? [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, I'll let you know when I'm going to be in Bangkok or Thailand, some time. And we'll make that happen. For people who want to check out this book, and you know, if this stuff really interests you, and you're, you know, you really should [01:03:17] check out the book. It's quite a, it's quite an amazing work. Where do people find you, and where do people find your book? PETER: I'm easy found in two places. One is on Facebook through the Thai Occult book page, and the easiest place to click on the book to get the Timeless editions would be through the Thai Occult.com, all one word.  ANDREW: Perfect.  PETER: I can't … And there's [01:03:47] two book pictures on the front cover, one from the Sak Yant book and then the new one on the Thai occult. Of the … to be honest, I'm very very very proud of the new one, the Sak Yant book and yes, we have some superb interviews with the guys, some of the makers in there, but having just produced something really good, I'd love to go back and rewrite it. ANDREW: Isn't [01:04:17] that always the way, right? Isn't that always the way? PETER: Though to be honest with you, I don't think I'm going to do … I don't think I'll be in that position, with the new one. I don't think I could have made a much better job, to be honest. There's always more, it's going to come up, but as a broad taste as a buffet of the Thai occult, I don't think … It'd be difficult to do a better job than this, in my opinion. ANDREW: Perfect. Well, go and check it out, and support [01:04:47] Peter's work and you know, thanks for being on, Peter and thanks to everybody, as always, for listening. PETER: It's been lovely. Thank you. 

Panel: Joe Eames John Papa Eric Dietrich Special Guest: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with Peter Mbanugo who is a software developer, tech writer, and maker of Hamoni Sync. He currently works with Field Intelligence, where he helps build logistic and supply chain apps. He also gets involved in design research and customer support for these products. He's also a contributor to Hoodie and a member of the Offline-First community. You can follow him on Twitter. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:12 – Eric: You, Peter, write a really interesting article. How did you come to write that blog? Tell me about yourself. 1:29 – (Peter talks about his blog and his current projects.) 2:18 – Eric: Tell us about the blog! 2:25 – Peter: I talk about real-time synchronization and why you need it for data. You can use the websocket API and other applications. 3:29 – Panel: Let’s take a step back. It could be helpful to know: what problem were you trying to solve with real-time data? 4:14 – Panel: So multiple client browsers? You are editing in one browser and the data is showing up in the other? You mentioned websockets and others – could you talk about WHY you didn’t go with the other ones? 4:45 – (Peter answers the question.) 6:08 – Panel: So you created Hamoni Sync, and when did you start it? 6:20 – Peter: Yes, and I wrote it in March. I used real-time systems. 6:52 – Panel: What does it mean? 6:55 – (Peter answers.) 7:07 – Panel: Looks like it’s reasonably priced, too. 7:33 – Panel: Let me ask you this. How easy is it to get up and running using this on a Vue project?  7:45 – Peter. 8:34 – Panel: You have to install through your dashboard, then... 8:46 – Peter. 8:53 – Panel: You mentioned earlier that you shouldn’t websocket API right now? 9:04 – Peter:  Not all users would have a browser that would support that. 9:39 – Panel: Hamoni handles all of that for you, which is nice. So it has a simple API to use. You started in March – is this your fulltime job...or? 10:08 – Peter: I started a new job 2 months ago, so now it’s part-time. 10:20 – Panel: You can use with any JavaScript library? 10:24 – Peter. 10:31 – Panel: Why did you do a tutorial in Vue and not in Angular or React? 10:37 – Peter: I do have one in React, and then... 10:54 – Panel: How do you like Vue so far? 10:55 – Peter. 11:15- Panel: The simplicity of Vue and you can take an older app and you can switch it over and not worry about jQuery and just go from there. Angular one days and instead of Angular 2+ or 6 now – Vue is an easy upgrade transition for sure. 11:47 – Peter. 11:51 – Panel: Walk us through how an app would work with this? 12:09 – Peter: When you connect you... 12:40 – Panel: What server is the data going to? 12:46 – Peter. 12:51 – Peter: I have a cloud service. 13:00 – Panel: How do they still get performance if there are a lot of people on at the same time? 13:06 – Peter. 13:17 – Panel: It handles all of the scaling? 13:23 – (Panelist walks through the process.) 13:44 – Peter: No scaling issues, yet. 14:05 – Peter: I haven’t launched, yet, through Product Hunt. 14:20 – Peter: The plan is to do that next month or middle of next month? 14:33 – Panel: Maybe once this podcast launches – that’s cool. What other apps can use real-time? Like a chat room is obvious when they are learning with socket IO. Is this beyond Vue? 15:07 – Peter: Yeah, in general it could be used for real-time chat applications and... 15:21 – Panel: Stock market updates? 15:28 – Peter: Yes. No, not animals.  Maybe games for multi-player games. For chat room application. 18:45 – Panel: Demopuppy.com 19:11 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 20:00 – Peter: Related to the blog we have covered it well. Why you would use real-time and the different ways you can do it with websocket. 20:23 – Panel: You are in Nigeria? 20:24 – Peter: Yes. 20:27 – Panel: How is Vue.js in Nigeria – do you have Meetups? 20:44 – Peter: I think the tech scene is doing quite well. Mainly Angular and others use other frameworks. 22:08 – Panel: Conference and asking for people to contribute? (Yes.) That sounds great for an active community. Getting hard jobs in tech is hard but maybe hard in specific places. 22:39 – Peter: It is great the great one for React b/c of the popularity in React. React or Angular; one of the two. 23:12 – Panel: If you know your stuff you are good to go? 23:19 – Peter: Yes. Microsoft’s .NET is quite stable. 23:37 – Panel: You are starting a startup is that common in Nigeria? 23:49 – Peter: The startup is small actually. 24:37 – Panel: Are you in the capitol? (Yes.) There is a misconception there that people think you have to be in the California or bay area, and you can see that it’s not true. You can create cool things no matter where you are! 25:08 – Peter: It’s great to see the diversity. 25:14 – Panel: I think it’s cool what you are doing. I am glad you wrote an article. What is HospitalRun? 25:42 – Peter: It’s a hospital management system to work offline first. To use them in remote areas where there is no connectivity. 27:08 – Panel: It’s an opensource project – Hospital.io. You are more the maintainer of the frontend right? 28:05 – Peter: Yes. 28:11 – Panel: A lot of hospitals are using this and need contributors and if you want to have a real difference check it out. What do you do as the maintainer are you reviewing code requests? 28:40 – Peter. 28:56 – Panel: Ember.js? 29:00 – Peter: No, I am being dumped into Ember into the deep-end. 29:20 – Panel: I think we are going to go to our picks now? How can 29:30 – Peter: Twitter and email. Check out the show notes! 29:50 – Panel: Picks! 29:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Can I Use Websocket? Demopuppy.com HospitalRun.io What are the best tools for automating social media growth? Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanugo’s Email: p.mbanugo@yahoo.com Peter’s blogs Vue Mastery Hoodie Meetups Hamoni Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe Dungeon and Dragons recordings coming soon on YouTube Blog - Good Bye Redux John Talk like a pirate day I Can Use Product Hunt Vue Mastery Peter Hoodie Vue Dev Tools Ego is the Enemy Eric Halt and Catch fire Vue.JS in Action

Panel: Joe Eames John Papa Eric Dietrich Special Guest: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with Peter Mbanugo who is a software developer, tech writer, and maker of Hamoni Sync. He currently works with Field Intelligence, where he helps build logistic and supply chain apps. He also gets involved in design research and customer support for these products. He's also a contributor to Hoodie and a member of the Offline-First community. You can follow him on Twitter. Show Topics: 0:00 – Advertisement – Kendo UI 1:12 – Eric: You, Peter, write a really interesting article. How did you come to write that blog? Tell me about yourself. 1:29 – (Peter talks about his blog and his current projects.) 2:18 – Eric: Tell us about the blog! 2:25 – Peter: I talk about real-time synchronization and why you need it for data. You can use the websocket API and other applications. 3:29 – Panel: Let’s take a step back. It could be helpful to know: what problem were you trying to solve with real-time data? 4:14 – Panel: So multiple client browsers? You are editing in one browser and the data is showing up in the other? You mentioned websockets and others – could you talk about WHY you didn’t go with the other ones? 4:45 – (Peter answers the question.) 6:08 – Panel: So you created Hamoni Sync, and when did you start it? 6:20 – Peter: Yes, and I wrote it in March. I used real-time systems. 6:52 – Panel: What does it mean? 6:55 – (Peter answers.) 7:07 – Panel: Looks like it’s reasonably priced, too. 7:33 – Panel: Let me ask you this. How easy is it to get up and running using this on a Vue project?  7:45 – Peter. 8:34 – Panel: You have to install through your dashboard, then... 8:46 – Peter. 8:53 – Panel: You mentioned earlier that you shouldn’t websocket API right now? 9:04 – Peter:  Not all users would have a browser that would support that. 9:39 – Panel: Hamoni handles all of that for you, which is nice. So it has a simple API to use. You started in March – is this your fulltime job...or? 10:08 – Peter: I started a new job 2 months ago, so now it’s part-time. 10:20 – Panel: You can use with any JavaScript library? 10:24 – Peter. 10:31 – Panel: Why did you do a tutorial in Vue and not in Angular or React? 10:37 – Peter: I do have one in React, and then... 10:54 – Panel: How do you like Vue so far? 10:55 – Peter. 11:15- Panel: The simplicity of Vue and you can take an older app and you can switch it over and not worry about jQuery and just go from there. Angular one days and instead of Angular 2+ or 6 now – Vue is an easy upgrade transition for sure. 11:47 – Peter. 11:51 – Panel: Walk us through how an app would work with this? 12:09 – Peter: When you connect you... 12:40 – Panel: What server is the data going to? 12:46 – Peter. 12:51 – Peter: I have a cloud service. 13:00 – Panel: How do they still get performance if there are a lot of people on at the same time? 13:06 – Peter. 13:17 – Panel: It handles all of the scaling? 13:23 – (Panelist walks through the process.) 13:44 – Peter: No scaling issues, yet. 14:05 – Peter: I haven’t launched, yet, through Product Hunt. 14:20 – Peter: The plan is to do that next month or middle of next month? 14:33 – Panel: Maybe once this podcast launches – that’s cool. What other apps can use real-time? Like a chat room is obvious when they are learning with socket IO. Is this beyond Vue? 15:07 – Peter: Yeah, in general it could be used for real-time chat applications and... 15:21 – Panel: Stock market updates? 15:28 – Peter: Yes. No, not animals.  Maybe games for multi-player games. For chat room application. 18:45 – Panel: Demopuppy.com 19:11 – Advertisement – Get A Coder Job! 20:00 – Peter: Related to the blog we have covered it well. Why you would use real-time and the different ways you can do it with websocket. 20:23 – Panel: You are in Nigeria? 20:24 – Peter: Yes. 20:27 – Panel: How is Vue.js in Nigeria – do you have Meetups? 20:44 – Peter: I think the tech scene is doing quite well. Mainly Angular and others use other frameworks. 22:08 – Panel: Conference and asking for people to contribute? (Yes.) That sounds great for an active community. Getting hard jobs in tech is hard but maybe hard in specific places. 22:39 – Peter: It is great the great one for React b/c of the popularity in React. React or Angular; one of the two. 23:12 – Panel: If you know your stuff you are good to go? 23:19 – Peter: Yes. Microsoft’s .NET is quite stable. 23:37 – Panel: You are starting a startup is that common in Nigeria? 23:49 – Peter: The startup is small actually. 24:37 – Panel: Are you in the capitol? (Yes.) There is a misconception there that people think you have to be in the California or bay area, and you can see that it’s not true. You can create cool things no matter where you are! 25:08 – Peter: It’s great to see the diversity. 25:14 – Panel: I think it’s cool what you are doing. I am glad you wrote an article. What is HospitalRun? 25:42 – Peter: It’s a hospital management system to work offline first. To use them in remote areas where there is no connectivity. 27:08 – Panel: It’s an opensource project – Hospital.io. You are more the maintainer of the frontend right? 28:05 – Peter: Yes. 28:11 – Panel: A lot of hospitals are using this and need contributors and if you want to have a real difference check it out. What do you do as the maintainer are you reviewing code requests? 28:40 – Peter. 28:56 – Panel: Ember.js? 29:00 – Peter: No, I am being dumped into Ember into the deep-end. 29:20 – Panel: I think we are going to go to our picks now? How can 29:30 – Peter: Twitter and email. Check out the show notes! 29:50 – Panel: Picks! 29:58 – Advertisement – Fresh Books! DEVCHAT code. 30-day trial. Links: Vue React Angular JavaScript DevChat TV Can I Use Websocket? Demopuppy.com HospitalRun.io What are the best tools for automating social media growth? Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanugo’s Email: p.mbanugo@yahoo.com Peter’s blogs Vue Mastery Hoodie Meetups Hamoni Sponsors: Fresh Books Cache Fly Kendo UI Get A Coder Job! Picks: Joe Dungeon and Dragons recordings coming soon on YouTube Blog - Good Bye Redux John Talk like a pirate day I Can Use Product Hunt Vue Mastery Peter Hoodie Vue Dev Tools Ego is the Enemy Eric Halt and Catch fire Vue.JS in Action

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book

Panel: Charles Max Wood Lucas Reis Justin Bennett Special Guests: Peter Mbanugo In this episode, the panel talks with guest speaker, Peter Mbanugo. Peter is a computer software specialist who works with Field Intelligence and writes technical articles for Progress Software and a few others. He studied at SMC University and currently resides in Nigeria. They talk about his creation, Hamoni Sync, and article, Real-time editable data grid in React. Also, other topics such as Offline-First, Speed Curve, Kendo UI are talked about, too. Check out today’s episode Show Topics: 1:30 – Chuck: Let’s talk about what you built and how it works. Topic: Real-time editable data grid in React. 1:40 – Peter: Real time editing. It allows you to edit and have the data go across the different devices. Synchronizing your applications. For the  2:47 – I saw that you built also the... 2:58 – Peter: Yes, I built that with Real-time. Most of the time I have to figure out how to build something to go across the channel, such as the message. Then I built the chats. Next month 4:33 – Justin: It says that it can go offline. That is challenging. How are you going about that? 4:51 – Peter answers the question. Peter: When you loose connections and when the network comes back on then it will try to publish anything to the server while offline. If you are trying to initialize the... 5:42 – Awesome. 5:45 – Peter continues his thoughts. 5:56 – Lucas: This is really interesting. Form something really simple to tackle this problem. I have gotten into so many problems. Congratulations on at least having the courage to try such a system. 6:35 – Justin: When you have someone interacting with one of these applications, lose connectivity, is the service handling this behind the scenes? 6:56 – Peter: Yes.  Peter goes into detail. 7:19 – Justin: Neat. That would be interesting to dig more into that. 7:35 – Lucas: I had a friend who sent me links and I was like WHOAH. It’s not an easy task. 7:57 – Peter: Yes, offline – I am learning each and everyday. There are different ways to go about it. Then I go write something about conflict free of different types. I thought that was the way to go. I didn’t want it to be something of the declines. 8:50 – Lucas: How did React work for you? 9:24 – Peter answers the question. 9:58 – Panelist: I was trying to synchronize the system. There are 2 types: Operational Transformations and CRDTs. It’s a really hard problem. 10:35 – Lucas: Now we have multiple devices and they can be far away from each other. Updates to send to the same server. I think that this is really complicated world. Even consider new techniques that we use in RI. You have a long in process. You need to react to them. Maybe dates that you cannot get. Hard problem we are solving now. 11:56 –Justin: Even interacting with applications that ... it has made our products that aren’t approachable if someone doesn’t have a good Internet connection. Synchronizing connections while offline. So you can have offline support. These are problems that we can resolve hopefully. 13:01 – Lucas: It affects everyone. Back in Brazil we had problems with connections, because it’s connections. Now I live in NY but the subway my connection is hurt. 13:40 – Peter: Yes, I agree. Peter talks about his connections being an issue while living in Africa. 14:52 – Justin: How does that affect your development workflow? 15:08 – Peter answers the question. 17:23 – Justin: Shout-out to the Chrome team. Tool called LIGHTHOUSE. It can test for accessibility, SEOs and etc. Good same defaults and trying to test Mobile First. When I was learning about performance I wasn’t thinking about the types of devices that people would use. The edits tab really helps think about those things. 18:41 – Digital Ocean’s Advertisement 19:18 – Justin: Any tools to help test your download speeds or anything authentication tools? 19:36 – Peter answers this question. 20:15 – Panelist asks the same question to Lucas. 20:22 – Lucas: interesting question. Even though the website was doing pretty well we were in the dark. We did a huge migration and it wasn’t clear about the performance. So my first mission here was start using a tool called SPEED CURVE. It only gets better. For a company who needs to acquire a tool SPEED CURVE is great. They have the LIGHTHOUSE measurements in their dashboards. So it can follow through time your scores and all of your analysis. These are the tools we use today. They have both synthetic and real user monitoring. So when we are measuring things on our Chrome it is a picture of your machine (biased picture) they make it both synthetic and film your page and compare through time. Analyze your assets. Some code on your application and collects statistics for each user. Relic I have used before, too. I do believe those tools are of great help. I am sure there are opensource initiatives, but I haven’t played 22:56 – Peter: Have you tried...? 23:07 – Lucas continues. LIGHTHOUSE. 23:56 – Justin: It gives great visualizations for people to see. SPEED CURVE. Where we are at – so they can see that – it’s powerful. 24:40 – Lucas: Interesting story we used SPEED CURVE. Real users and synthetic measurements; our website was getting slower and slower. We couldn’t figure it out. What is happening to our application? It turned out that the app more people were using it on the mobile. The real user speed was going up because they were using mobile. The share of mobile users and performance was getting better. You look at the overall average it was getting slower. Interesting lesson on how to look at data, interpret data and insights. It was really interesting. 26:21 – Peter. 26:25 – Lucas continues the previous conversation from 24:40. 27:00 – Justin: Taking the conversation back. It’s always a challenging problem because the implications are hard to use. What was your experience with React Table? What are the pros and cons? 27:40 – Peter: React Table is quite light. It is pretty good on data. I haven’t had much of a problem. It is okay to use. The other ones I haven’t tried them, yet. 28:08 – Justin: Same question to Charles and to Lucas. 28:21 – Lucas: I have never worked with big tables to render the massive data or tables that need to be edits and stuff like that. I don’t have experience with those components. Play here and there. It is interesting, because it is one of those components that are fighting the platform and it’s a good source of interesting solutions. 29:05 – Chuck: Kendo UI has one. I need something that his more barebones. AG Grid. 30:03 – Justin: React Windows. It optimizes long lists. It just renders what is in the current window. 30:22 – Ryan Vaughn. 30:28 – Justin: Cool library. 30:36 – Lucas: Use it as a learning tool. How do you all decide when to actually start using a library? As early as you can? Libraries to solve our problems? 31:19 – Peter: It depends on what I am doing. 31:53 – Fascinating question. Not one size fits all. It’s a balance between product deliverable needs and... There can be risks involved. Fine balance. I find myself doing a lot is I will default using a library first. Library that isn’t too large but what I need for that project. If there is a hairy feature I will use the library until my needs are met.  33:49 – Lucas adds his comments. Lucas: You want to differentiate yourself. I love GitHub. 35:36 – Question to Charles: I know you have tons of stuff going on. What’s your thought process? 35:53 – Chuck: If I can find stuff on the shelf I will pay for it. My time adds up much more quickly then what the dollars do. I will pay for something off the shelf. I only mess around for a while but if I can’t find something to help me then I will go and build something of my own. I got close with Zapier, but I got to the point that I wanted to put something together that I built my own thing through Ruby on Rails. Generally I will pay for it. 37:07 – Panelist: Yes, I don’t think we all don’t value our time and how expensive time is. 37:25 – Chuck: I own the business. My time is of value – it’s more important to me. It’s a trap that people fall into not to value their time. 38:11 – Lucas: We are not all working on what we SHOULD be working on. This isn’t going to bring business Productive time that we are using with stuff that is not our business or our main focus. Focus on the core product. Try to get the customers to have a better life. The mission of the company. The web community that started that most is the Ruby community. Having solutions and focusing on the problem. I think that JavaScript is now doing a better job of this. As we know it’s easy to fall into this trap and play with building blocks. 39:52 – Chuck: I have had a few people remind me that I am a DEVELOPER! 40:19 – Justin: The thing I have estimating is the difficulty of something. I can build it because I am a developer. Is it valuable for me? 41:10 – Lucas: The sunken costs sink in – I have done all this work and now look where I am at? 41:33 – Chuck: Anything else? 41:43 – Peter: Check out me through Twitter and the Dev blog. Message me anytime. 42:13 – Chuck: Picks! 42:18 – Advertisement. Links: Kendo UI Ruby on Rails Angular Get A Coder Job Redux Agile Real-time editable data grid in React Peter Mbanugo’s Twitter Peter Mbanguo’s LinkedIn Peter Mbanguo’s Dev.To Peter Mbanguo’s GitHub Peter Mbanguo’s WordPress Lucas Reis’ Email: lucasmreis@gmail.com Charles Max Wood’s Twitter Sponsors: Kendo UI Digital Ocean Get A Coder Job Picks: Charles Book: The ONE Thing Get A Coder Job – It will be out next week! T-Shirts & Mugs – Podcast Artwork - SWAG Kickstarter – Code Badge.Org Justin RC BLOG Podcast: Indie Hackers Indie Hackers Lucas Blog Post: Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Turtle Peter Library – Opensource Masters of Skill – Podcast Book: Ego is the Enemy Book

Aira Workshop on Employment, Education, and Aira as a Reasonable Accommodation. Seeing AI Developer Joins the AI Team at Aira! Full Transcript Below Blind Abilities continues its coverage of the NFB 2018 National Convention from Orlando Florida with this presentation of the Aira workshop on the subject of education, students and employment. Aira team members, Michael Hingson and Patrick Lane present a detailed discussion of how the Aira service can be used by students, both in school and transitioning into the workplace, by Explorers seeking employment, and while actually on the job as a reasonable accommodation. Get an in-depth peek at how Aira Agents are trained and how they find their passion for describing tasks and experiences for Aira Explorers. Hear a live demonstration of a real call to an Aira Agent using the new Horizon glasses and get updates on what has been going on with Aira since the convention ended in July. This NFB 2018 blind Abilities podcast is brought to you by Aira. You can check them out and subscribe to the Aira service on the web, at: www.Aira.IO special thanks to Patrick Lane for his awesome original guitar music. Thanks for Listening! You can follow Blind Abilities on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Full Transcript: Pete Lane: Hi folks, this is Pete Lane welcome back to Blind Abilities. As you know Blind Abilities was in Orlando at the NFB 2018 National Convention. Our own Jeff Thompson attended an Aira workshop on the topic of education, students, and employment. In this workshop, we hear about how Aira can fit the needs of students as they attend college and transition into the workforce. We hear about how Aira can be free for those explorers who are looking for jobs, and we hear about how the Aira service can be a reasonable accommodation and can perform so many tasks for workers on the job. Aira staff members Michael Hingson and Patrick Lane present this workshop courtesy of Aira. Before we join Michael and Patrick just a quick announcement. We have a new addition to the Aira team, Anirudh Koul, founder of Seeing AI and former senior data scientist with Microsoft has joined the Aira team as the head of artificial intelligence and research. We welcome him to the Aira staff. Without further adieu let's join Michael Hingson and Patrick Lane from the Aira workshop on education, students, and employment from the NFB 2018 National Convention in Orlando, Fl. Michael Hingson: I'd like to welcome you all to our seminar today. This is the first of three that Aira will be conducting. This particular one is gonna be on education, employment, students, people in the workplace, employers and employees and our intent is to set the stage for what Aira offers and can bring to you in terms of how it can benefit you in any of those categories. So our intent is to really give you a good idea of what Aira is, what it isn't and how you can use it. I am Mike Hingson, I am the director of Aira explorer special projects and we have a live agent on the stage, why don't you introduce yourself.   Patrick Lane: Hey everybody my names Patrick Lane, I am currently an agent analyst here with Aira. I've been an agent with Aira for coming up on two years now. So, I've gotten to see Aira used in all of the specific cases that Mike just mentioned many, many different times in different ways. Michael Hingson: One of my favorite Aira stories is that in Patrick's early days, I happened to call him about 7:00 in the morning California time because I needed to put a laundry cart together that we had gotten in the email. And as the Chinese are learning from Ikea, the instructions were all pictorial there were no text pieces to the instructions at all. So I called, got Patrick and we put it together in a half hour. And that's as good as it gets because that really is what Aira is about. Michael Hingson: Aira if you look at Aira in the general terms of what it is, Aira is an information source. Aira is a way that you can get any visual information that you otherwise would not have access to. When I talk to a lot of people about Aira, they think about the fact that oh well I really have good travel skills so I don't need it or I've always got sighted people with me so I don't have that problem. Let's deal with that in terms of a job. I'm on the job, I'm using JAWS and suddenly the computer quits working. Now, where do I go to get my sighted assistance? I'm in the office, I've got to go interrupt somebody else to get them to come and look at the screen, tell me what the error screen is or of course the infamous blue screen of death. In any case, I have to go find someone. Michael Hingson: Why should I have to do that today? Because there is a way to do that on my own, namely using Aira. I can use Aira to contact an agent, the agent can look at the screen, see an error code and if I can't easily move my cursor to where it needs to go, it's possible that I can even enter into a tandem or two-way session using TeamViewer or some other technology with the agent. That might be a little harder with JAWS not talking but for a lot of different things that I do where there is an inaccessible webpage or something that isn't talking the way it should, I can interact with an agent and get their assistance both in terms of actually having a session, a two-way communication session or at least getting information described. Michael Hingson: If I am an employee and I want to go to lunch, lets say I am in sales and I want to take people somewhere for lunch for sales, I can more quickly use an Aira agent to research possible restaurants if I don't really know all the options or when I get to the restaurant or going to the restaurant using an agents help to do all of that. Aira gives me the opportunity to get anything that I need that I don't otherwise have access to because it's visual. It is that simple, it is that general and I urge people to look at Aira in that way. Michael Hingson: Don't limit yourself to looking at it as a travel device, don't look at it as something that's gonna diminish your skills, don't look at it as something that is anything other than what it is, an information source. And all of us no matter how good our cane skills are, no matter how good our dog skills are, can benefit by having access to Aira because Aira is the way that I can get more information to better tell my dog where I want to go or interact with traveling with my cane. Michael Hingson: Let's talk about students and Aira. As a student, Aira offers an incredible amount of opportunities for you to be able to more independently do things than you otherwise would be able to. The most common thing that we as blind people have to do as students is to read material that otherwise is inaccessible to us. If the average reader is paid, lets say $15 an hour, we an unlimited plan for Aira that's $330 that exists today. Things are gonna change but let's just use what we have today. $330 is equivalent to 22 hours of reading time at $15 an hour. Michael Hingson: I'm submitting that Aira is cheaper than hiring readers. Any office for students with disabilities will save a heck of a lot of money if they independently allow students to use Aira and they pay for the Aira service. Aira will allow me to read when I want to read, where I want to read, and essentially how I want to read. There are incredible examples of different ways that students have used Aira in libraries, have used Aira in the classroom to access the material that a professor is writing on a board or is displaying on a power point presentation. An Aira agent can be describing that to a student who uses Aira plugged into earphones so that they can hear what's going on while the instructor is doing what they do. Never in any way interfering with the class and more important not demanding any change in the methodology that the professor uses to do what they have to do. So, I don't need the professor to do something different for me when I'm using Aira. It frees me up to perhaps better take notes. It opens up an incredible world. Michael Hingson: Of course, I can use Aira to travel around a campus, learn where things are and go off campus and do all the things that I might otherwise do that any other student would do. So, Aira gives you that flexibility that we have never had as students and Aira makes it available in a way that is affordable by any definition to any department of rehabilitation or any office for students with disabilities on a college campus. Both of whom ought to be providing Aira in one way or another because it will make me a better student in theory, if I study and it will also then make me a more employable person. Because as I graduate from school, I'm gonna be going out and I'm gonna be looking for a job. Michael Hingson: While I'm at school, I talked about the fact that we do have departments of rehabilitation starting to look at Aira and some who have signed Aira up and are paying for those services. Some offices for students with disabilities are doing it. But Aira also has another program and this is the second year in a row that it has existed, it's called back to school. Aira will be sponsoring some 500 students for a full year of Aira use. You can apply by going to aira.io/backtoschool, where you can sign up for Aira and once chosen then you'll get Aira with a 400 minute a month plan, I believe is the plan that we're using. Julenna is that right? Are you here?   Julenna: Yes, that's correct. Michael Hingson: By the way, Julenna in the back right is the person who's in charge of back to school so, if you're a student and you want Aira, I would be really nice to Julenna just say it. But Aira with back to school means that you will have without any expense from the college or the department of rehabilitation access to Aira. You can apply for that today. And I urge any students in the room to do that. Michael Hingson: Aira uses smart glasses, glasses that contain a camera that transmits images directly to an agent. Agents are hired by Aira, they are paid by Aira. They're hired because they have demonstrated an aptitude to be able to describe and then after they are hired, they go through a significant training period. And once they are trained they go out and start acting as agents in describing things for people who happen to be blind. Aira does not tell you what to do. Aira will not, for example, tell you cross the street. Aira agents may tell you they don't see cars coming if you ask. Aira agents may tell you that the light has turned green, Aira agents will describe an intersection so that you can cross it with full knowledge of what the intersection looks like but Aira's not gonna tell you to cross the street, that's your job because you have the cane or dog skills that you need in order to make the right decisions and cross the street. Aira will give you the information that you need. Likewise, on the job, Aira will do the same thing.   Patrick Lane: The agents are not here to teach, and we're not here to tell you a situation is safe. We're here to provide you instant, equal access to information. So, we'll provide you all the information that you need to be more comfortable and know more about your surroundings to paint that rich picture of your environment so you are aware of everything that's around you. The agents are able to have a conversation with you, they can tailor the amount of information and deliver it in a way that you prefer. So we make things as easy to understand as possible. We'll deliver information about as Mike was mentioning intersections, we'll tell you the name of the intersection, the size, and shape of the intersection, whether or not there's traffic signals, stop signs, pedestrian signals, crosswalks present. We give you all the information that you need but we're never here to replace your o & m stills, we're never here to replace your cane or your dog and we're never here to tell you that you are safe or unsafe.   Patrick Lane: We just provide you all the information that you need, even if it's simply completing a task that you've completed a million times in the past. We might be able to provide a different sense of independence while doing that task or a different type of enjoyment. Not only can it be used for navigation but we are here to provide all of the information that you need about pretty much any task that you might have in mind. We can help you with online tasks, we can help you planning trips, making online purchases, helping with different types of inaccessible websites. For instance, if you're a student and you do online courses and Blackboard's not cooperating, we read you about the information that you need for your schoolwork for any upcoming assignments, any kind of printouts that are passed out through classes.   Patrick Lane: So, just consider us as basically an OnStar for those are blind or low vision. We're not here just to point a camera at something and tell you what you're describing. We are a full service. Our agents are very highly trained and they're very dedicated and extremely patient. We are amazing problem solvers, we're great at troubleshooting. The agents will find the information that you need at all costs. It's situations like that. I've looked up YouTube videos and gone through the entire process. Basically what an agent can do is up to you. Our explorers are called explorers because they are creative in the way that they use our service. They go out there and they test our service to the limits and show us what we're capable of and let us know where we make changes and at this point from my first day till now, it's completely different. Our company is growing exponentially, our technology is amazingly consistent and our agents are there to work as a team with you to complete any task it is that you want to do. Be creative whatever you think of that's what Aira is here for. Michael Hingson: So you go off, and you graduate and then you go looking for a job. The first thing you should be aware of if you happen to be an Aira explorer is that we have an Aira access network for jobs. A job access network. Whatever you want to call it to stick it in your memory. If you are doing anything relating to getting a job at all, whether it's writing a resume, writing a cover letter, making sure everything is formatted, getting dressed to go to a job interview, ladies putting on makeup, anything at all related to getting a job, that time is automatically free to you. Michael Hingson: So for any Aira explorer doing anything relating to getting a job is free. We are saying at Aira, we want to take that unemployment rate from 70% unemployment rate among blind people down to 7%, which would be cool. And Aira is trying to help to make that happen by making it possible for you as an explorer to have access to the tools at no additional charge to get that job. What does it mean though as far as getting a job and where does Aira fit into that? Michael Hingson: The way Aira fits in is really pretty simple. Aira by any definition of the Americans with Disabilities Act is a reasonable accommodation. It is something that should be usable and used by you on the job. I can take almost any job that you can imagine and find a way Aira can help. Because again remember what Aira is, an information source. It provides you with what information you need. How many here in the room have a job?   Patrick Lane: A few hands back there. [crosstalk ] Michael Hingson: Raising your hands' guys isn't gonna work, I'm not using an Aira agent right now.   Patrick Lane: How many are looking for- Michael Hingson: How many are looking for a job?   Patrick Lane: Handful. Michael Hingson: So, for the fun of you for some of you who are looking for a job, tell me some tasks that you might need to perform on the job?   Speaker 9: Doing my resume. Michael Hingson: Let's say you have a job what are some of the tasks that you might need to perform? We'll come back to the resume and that as well. But you're on the job. What are some tasks that you might need to perform on the job?   Speaker 4: [inaudible] Michael Hingson: Typing and what was the other one?   Speaker 4: Filing. Michael Hingson: Filing. What else?   Speaker 5:[inaudible] Michael Hingson: Okay.   Speaker 6: A handwritten note. Michael Hingson: Handwritten notes.   Speaker 7: Finding information. Michael Hingson: I'm sorry. Speaker 7: Finding information. Michael Hingson: Someone up here said something.   Speaker 8: I was saying looking at presentations. Michael Hingson: Looking at presentations.   Patrick Lane: Powerpoint slides, I've described a handful of those in my day. Michael Hingson: Let me suggest a couple others. Making copies on a copier, anybody try to do that lately? Copiers are touchscreen.   Patrick Lane: Oh yeah. Michael Hingson: The one that I love to pick on at Aira, going and getting something from the coffee machine because it's also touchscreen. However, every single thing that you guys have said are all things that you could use Aira to do. You don't have to ask someone else. So let's talk about the coffee machine. I love hot chocolate so I go up to the machine, I call an Aira agent and I do this at Aira. And it's absolutely a great example, I wouldn't have it any other way. I call the agent and I say, need help getting hot chocolate. Now, I'm sure that we could probably mark the machine in some way but the problem is finding the markings you're gonna touch the touchscreen so it doesn't work very well. But, the Aira agent can look at the screen and tell me, move your finger a half an inch to the left, you're right over the button, push it or whatever and I'll find the start button or actually you have a choice of making it with milk or water and I like it with milk. Michael Hingson: So, we need to find the milk button. Move your finger down to the bottom of the screen, over to your right a half an inch, you're over it, push and it's a little longer than just doing it with buttons but it's accessible because Aira agents can help do it. And I don't need to wait until someone else might be available, I don't need to wait until I'm dying of thirst, I can just have an Aira agent do it and give me the information so I can get exactly what I want. And in fact, learn more about that coffee machine than I ever would've learned any other way. Something that sighted people take for granted, the tens of thousands of different ways you can, permutations that you can get out of that coffee machine. Michael Hingson: But, with an Aira agent, I can learn those same things and I wouldn't know that any other way. Copy machines the same way. Most of what you do on copiers these days are touch screen but I can become as good a copy expert as anyone else if I have access to it. And I do because I can use Aira. Filing, obviously, Aira agents being able to read information so that I can put things in the right folder and even creating the tabs to go in folders or whatever. All of those things are commonplace everyday tasks that you should be able to do as well as anyone else. But, you can't if the equipment isn't accessible unless you use Aira. It's all about access to information. Michael Hingson: Somebody mentioned resumes and I want to talk about that a little bit more. There are countless examples and Patrick help out, people want their resume to look good. The Aira agent can help, so let's take a typical example. You're writing a resume, you've got all the facts and you can put them down, now you want to make it look good. So you can call an Aira agent who can describe and help you or what I would do being lazy and being industrious and trying to get it done as efficiently as possible. I would use one of the programs that I mentioned earlier. Michael Hingson: TeamViewer for example which is a way that you can have an agent connect directly to your computer and you can work with the agent and let the agent do the formatting. Because they see what your screen shows. And so the agent can actually format the resume for you or with you because you're still gonna have to tell them what you want it to look like but the agent will be able to format that resume and by the time you're done, you'll have a resume that you would be proud to provide to any employer for them to look at.   Patrick Lane: With the TeamViewer, it's not only us being able to see your computer screen but we also have remote control of that computer screen. The agents can do a lot of stuff with TeamViewer. Let's just say you've never actually seen a resume, you don't know what the actual format looks like, how it's set up, its never been described. Agents can input all the information that you've given them into a pre-made template for a resume. Can work on all the different fonts and colors and apply that to a specific type of job that you might be searching for. So really make that resume look unique and noticeable so it stands out when it is viewed by the employer. They can make sure that all of the spelling and the grammar and the punctuation are correct because nobody wants to submit a resume with spelling errors or bad grammar, anything like that. So the agents can apply all that information. They can update old resumes and then reformat them to show the changes. Even your LinkedIn account we can go in there and update that with prior jobs statuses and all of that information. Patrick Lane: So, with the TeamViewer being able to have that remote access to your computer screen it means that you don't have to potentially hold a phone there or lean in really close with the glasses, it makes the whole type of experience more enjoyable for a possible tedious task. So, I have personally assisted in setting up all of what I just mentioned. I've helped somebody build their resume from the ground up and they have successfully used that. I've helped update LinkedIn profiles to reflect what's written on a resume. I've helped people apply for jobs and send that resume automatically though CareerBuilder or Monster, whatever it might be. So, we have assisted hopefully a large amount of people in finding that employment that I know that they're looking for. Not only will you hopefully, potentially find that employment but while using the service for that reason, you're not gonna use any of those really valuable Aira minutes. So, when seeking out a job the agents mark the call as such so you're not gonna use any of your Aira minutes while performing that specific task. Michael Hingson: So if it takes you five hours to build a resume or 10 hours to build a resume that's not a problem. If you need help creating other documentation for job search it's not a problem. It's all part of the job access that Aira has made available for any Aira explorer to use. So that's available to you today. Michael Hingson: Aira just announced a partnership with VFO where if you're doing anything using JAWS or any other equipment manufactured by VFO and you run into any access issues, or you run into any problems with using Aira and VFO products, those minutes that you spend where VFO can't do it without you bringing an agent or someone else in to assist are all free. So, I for example, when I had an issue trying to deal with some Slack messages last week, I contacted an Aira agent, we established a communication sessions through TeamViewer, and we accomplished what I needed to do with Slack. But because I couldn't easily do it with JAWS that meant it was in part a JAWS issue, so those minutes happen to be as they ended up, free because it's part of the VFO access program available from Aira. Now the operative part that we've talked about with all this is that you have to be an Aira explorer. Michael Hingson: On the job you've got a lot of ways to do it in theory, and I realize that this is only in theory because different places operate in different ways and so on. But, typically speaking if you want to get a job even if it costs you money upfront to be an Aira explorer to subscribe to the service, to start that process, Aira can better help you in dealing with getting that job not only from the job access process that we talked about earlier but when you go into an employer's office and are going through an interview, and they ask you, how are you gonna do one thing or another? You can say, I'll show you. Now, technically, I suppose, one could say, why are you asking me how to do things when you don't ask sighted people how to do things? Michael Hingson: And I suppose if you wanted to be a stickler under the law say, that's true. But for me, I want the job and if I have the opportunity to educate an employer and help them understand that I'm gonna be more employable because I'm gonna be using Aira then I will educate the employer any day of the week. And more important I would then say, Aira is a service that costs money and as you provide various different kinds of technologies and methodologies and devices for all of your employees to do their job, this is one that I need to do my job. And under the law that is appropriate to do. More important than that, it's encouraged and most people at least have some sort of a clue that's a valuable thing to do. Aira is a reasonable accommodation. Michael Hingson: And, it's not very expensive compared to lots of other things that an employer might provide an employee and it makes you much more efficient. And if I were really gonna make the case I would say, hey employer you know the unemployment rate among employable blind people is anywhere between 65 and 70%. I gotta tell you right now, it is really hard for me to get a job because people don't think I can do the job although I can. People don't look at what I can do, they think well you're blind cause you can't and so as a result, you can't. Although I've just shown you how Aira helps me do the job better. If you hire me I guarantee you I'm sticking it out here because it is so hard to get a job. If you're gonna have faith in me, I'm gonna have faith in you. The fact is we will be more loyal on the job if we're given the opportunity and Aira can help make that case and sell it for you. And I think that's an important aspect of dealing with looking for a job. Michael Hingson: Is it HIPAA certified? Today, it is not. HIPAA does have standards although we are compliant with the California certification and security standards which actually is even worse than HIPAA but it's a very expensive process to get HIPAA certified. There is a lady in Canada who works at a community college and she deals with a lot of the medical cases and other privacy issues that go around student paperwork on the campus. What they did is they included in the paperwork that you signed to go to that college a statement that basically says that, some of your material may be read by a person who happens to be blind and they will be using reader services including remote reading services, Aira, to read your material. By signing this paper you consent for that to be able to be done. Michael Hingson: Now as soon as you make that consent statement and as soon as they sign it then HIPPA is not even relevant anymore for that person. And they're doing that as a blanket thing for every student that goes to the college. So, the issue is that we know that there are a lot of different kinds of processes, HIPAA is a good one and we are working toward that process. But there are also a lot of situations where our agents are extremely well trusted. There is a lawyer that I know in the United States who works for an organization and there is constant need to read and prepare documents for trial. And there is a lot of stuff in going through and dealing with things for trial, that's pretty confidential stuff. Michael Hingson: It's confidential from the law firms standpoint because they don't want the other side to necessarily know things until they're ready to give it to them. But it's also true the documents that are being used in discovery and acquired in discovery can be very confidential. Agents are really trusted because we know what happens in an Aira connection stays in an Aira connection. It doesn't go further. Many of us use Aira to look at our personal financial documents because it makes it available. Michael Hingson: My wife is sighted but if I don't have to use her to look at stuff I won't because she has her own things to do. And as willing as she is to describe things, to give me data and to help me accomplish tasks like that. Two things, no offense to my wife, but Aira describes better because they do it all the time and they're use to it. By the way, she'll acknowledge that because she's heard some of the agents. But two, I don't have to take her away from other things which gets back to what we said about on the job work right. So, the fact is that it makes for a much better situation all the way around. And Aira can be only positive in a job environment, much less in what we've talked about with students and so on. So, there is a, I think that the job didn't actually happen but for other reasons. Michael Hingson: There's a person who almost two years ago went to a career fair in Los Angeles and one of the companies there was See's Candy and they were hiring people to process orders so she turned in her resume and they said we'd love to hire you but problem is not all of our orders are electronic some come in paper. And she well let me show you and pulled out Aira. And that eliminated the problem. They said, gee solved that for us, great. Sure working in a store think of all the various things that you need to do whether it be, finding material on a shelf, reading a cash register that doesn't talk or excuse me point of sale device that doesn't talk. Whether it be doing other kinds of things. Whether it's filing or whatever. Blind vendors can use Aira and can be more efficient because they can stock their own shelves. They can read all the information that's not accessible to them. Again, I get back to what I said, you're only limited by your own imagination with what you can do with Aira. Michael Hingson: Aira doesn't use volunteers and our general response time is extremely quick, the time to get an answer is usually 10 seconds. Are you a user of Be My Eyes? Speaker 10: Yes, I'm an uses of Be My Eyes. Michael Hingson: So, Be My Eyes is a way that you can call someone and get simple tasks done. The problem is you don't know who you're gonna get in terms of their abilities. You don't know how long it's gonna take you and you can't do something like walk through an airport like you can with Aira. All of those things you can do with Aira. Speaker 11: I read somewhere that Aira can be activated via Siri. Michael Hingson: You can. You can say, make an Aira call or call Aira. You can use Siri to do it. Actually, I think you've got to call Ara because Siri don't talk good. Patrick Lane: There's two different voice commands depending on what device you're gonna be using. You can say Ara video call or Ara audio call and depending on which one you use it will call from either your glasses or your phone and connect to an agent very quickly as Mike said, 10 seconds or less depending on whether or not we have the largest conference going on in the country. Michael Hingson: But you do need to say Ara cause that's what Siri knows. Siri's gotta learn some language skills. What you will get is someone who is highly trained. You will get someone who knows how to describe, we've actually hired a number of new agents over the past months so, you're gonna get some newbies. I worked with one agent yesterday, I was blown away when I learned that at the end of the call, I was one of the first calls and this was her first day on the job. She did great. Aira's available for Android or for iPhones. Anybody with a smartphone can use it. That's the answer that we've been using. That changes too. Michael Hingson: Aira has developed its own glasses, it's the next generation of what Aira will become and that system consists of glasses with a high-resolution camera with a very wide field of view compared to the way it use to be. They actually connect directly to what we call an Aira controller or Aira controller phone. It's an Android phone locked only to Aira stuff. It also because of that it powers the glasses and there's a lot more power available. But, by using that system you don't even need your smartphone so you'll use the Aira system without even using the smartphone. Without even using your smartphone so that Aira will make it possible for you to keep your phone free for making your own phone calls while you're working with an agent. Michael Hingson: Or for example, if you're paging or needing to page or call Lyft or Uber you can ask an Aira agent to do that if you're an Aira explorer. And you link your Lyft and Uber accounts to Aira but along the way, there's a very good likelihood that the Lyft driver or Uber driver will call you and say, how am I gonna know you or where exactly are you? In the past, that's been a problem because you're using your smartphone and you have to disconnect from the Aira agent and then get back on. Now you don't because you're using the Aira controller as the way that you're communicating with Aira so your smartphone is still available. That is the horizon system. Michael Hingson: I am now connecting my Aira-   Automated Voice: Unlocked. Michael Hingson: Horizon glasses.   Automated Voice: Glass connected. Initializing Aira. Michael Hingson: Can everyone hear that?   Automated Voice: Hello Mikel Hingson.   Patrick Lane: Mikel Hingson.   Automated Voice: Aira ready for service. Michael Hingson: Yeah, it says Mikel. Could everyone hear that?   Patrick Lane: Yep. Michael Hingson: So I'm using the horizon glasses.   Automated Voice: Battery 73% that's attached connected to Arave four G LT. Hello Mikel Hingson, Aira ready for service. Michael Hingson: I want feedback to support we want Mikel to be pronounced correctly. All right, here listen to this.   Automated Voice: Calling Aira agent. Connecting to agent, connecting to agent. Michael Hingson: See how long it takes.   Automated Voice: Connecting to agent, connecting to agent Peter. Michael Hingson: Bingo.   Peter: Thank you for calling Aira, this is Peter how may I help you? Michael Hingson: Hey Peter, how's every little thing?   Peter: Going well, how are you? Michael Hingson: Doing well. So we are in a room and might you be able to tell us anything about where we are in terms of where this room is or anything like that?   Peter: I do see you're at Rosen Shingle Creek so I'm assuming your at the NFB Conference. Michael Hingson: And you see that's part of what Peter and all agents get is not only what they can see but they get GPS information and other data that can add value to them in terms of your Aira experience. And you are right we are at the NFB Convention, we are at the Rosen Shingle Creek Hotel and we are in Pensacola, H3 if you wanted to pull that up so you can really see where we are. Can you maybe describe a little bit of the room for us?   Peter: Sure. So you're in a relatively large room with really high ceilings, I want to say they're about 30 feet high at least. The room you're in, so it looks like you're seated on the stage, there are several rows across from you, they're all facing forward and there is a walkway down the center aisle between those rows as well. Michael Hingson: Peter, really serious question. Does anybody look like they're asleep? Those people in the back row, you know what I'm saying, Peter?   Peter: I see people waving. Michael Hingson: I just want to make sure because those people in the back rows they usually hide back there because they think they can fall asleep but with Aira they can't do that. One of my favorite stories is about a father who wanted to make sure his daughter was doing her homework, he called an Aira agent and walked in, and just said, how are things, what are you doing? She said, I'm doing my homework and the agent said, no she's playing computer games on her phone. Anyway, does anyone want to ask, while we've got Peter and Patrick, so Patrick's over here Peter?   Patrick Lane: Hey Peter.   Peter: Hey Patrick.   Patrick Lane: Good to see you again. Michael Hingson: So, any questions for either of these gentlemen?   Patrick Lane: So, the dashboard that Peter's using, what information does he have access to for him too?- Michael Hingson: So Peter why don't you tell us about your dashboard.   Peter: So on my dashboard, I have information like emergency contact info first of all in their profile, and then I do have access to seeing what kind of assisted devices anyone might be using such as a white cane or guide dog. Different preferences they have, if they prefer left and right or clock face for orientation. Just things so we can tailor the experience to each specific explorer since everyone has their own preferences. We also have access to like Michael said earlier the GPS location on the map and I'll be able to utilize public transit, I am, if the explorer connects the Aira app to their Lyft of Uber accounts, we're also able to request those rides for our explorers and then we'll be able to take a look at the driver's info, the name, the car the driver has and spot where they are on the map. And let the explorer know when the driver has arrived and help them spot the car. Michael Hingson: And more important with the NFB ride share test program, for example, if the car comes and it sees that you are blind and have a guide dog, and just decides to drive away, they'll get nailed.   Peter: We'll watch them like a hawk. Michael Hingson: They'll get in trouble. Other questions for Peter? Peter, can you read medication bottles?   Peter: Yes. Before I became an Aira agent I actually don't think I've ever met or interacted with anyone blind or low vision. So, initial training they start with just explaining what it's like for people who are blind or low vision, getting the what orientation mobility is and what kind of information is important to an explorer versus what I think is important information to me as a sighted person because those things are very different. We learn how to give what's necessary and then also when an explorer wants more detail, we learn what kind of detail to give them and then we start exploring the dashboard that we have with all those things I explained to you and then we do some training.   Peter: And the explorers who also [inaudible] who helps us train and we just do exercises like navigating, intersections with different tools. So, Michael has a guide dog and we'll learn how someone navigates with a guide dog and then we'll have another explorer teach us how someone navigates with a white cane and that helps us just get use to all the different things because it's one describing all the visual information that we want to give to the explorer but there's also the technical side of using the dashboard and all the other ways we communicate with other agents and the rest of the Aira team. Michael Hingson: The question was what can Aira do to help people do mobile deposit, bank deposits and so on.   Peter: I actually, coincidentally done that a couple times in the past couple weeks. We can help you align your phones camera over the check and make sure that it's face up, whichever side the app wants you to do and for certain bank apps, some of them aren't as accessible as others so it will help get you aligned to where the button is to take a picture of the check and send it off. Michael Hingson: So you've had an agent that wasn't able to make that happen. When you encounter a situation where an agent isn't successful it would be extremely helpful for you to provide that feedback because well Patrick why don't you deal with that. Patrick Lane: We love when the explorers use the feedback form at the end for both good and bad calls. That's why we have both good and poor marked on there. When you leave us feedback about why a call was poor, we as analysts can go provide that extra training to make that all of our standards are being met by the agents and that your standards are being met by the agents as well. Michael Hingson: So, if your having a problem getting an agent to be able to help you with a mobile deposit then it's important that we hear about that so that we can go back and review it and talk to the agent and find out what the problem is. And see what their difficulty is. So, if you took 60 minutes that's a real problem, and you should get that time credited back. But you have to let Aira know to do that. There are any number of factors, the camera could be one, I mean, it could be that on a particular day the cell service wasn't as good as it ought to be. Michael Hingson: Aira is absolutely pushing the envelope in terms of the technology with video streaming and so on and any number of factors can make it less than stellar and its not Airas fault or anyone's fault it's just the way it is. We'll talk about in a moment the new horizon glasses which will make a lot of that better. But those aren't the kinds of things that we do end up dealing with and so Aira can help make it better by understanding when you encounter problems. Those are some of the best things is to do is to be able to really talk about the problems that you're having so please give the feedback okay. Michael Hingson: I want to thank you all for coming. I would appreciate it if you would tell friends and colleagues. We've got more sessions coming up later this week. We will be at the booth. If you sign up for Aira by the way, you can then participate in refer a friend. If you refer someone to Aira, and they sign up, then they will get a free month, and you will get a free amount of credit equal to whatever plan they sign up for. So, get your friends to sign up. Scott White here at our national center has been very good at that, and I think mostly paid for a year of Aira because he got his friends to sign up. Pete Lane: I thought I'd pop in here and bring you up to date on a couple of recent developments with the Aira service. Aira is now available twenty-four seven. This means that explorers can dial up an agent from their Aira app anytime night or day. This not only allows U.S. users to dial Aira during the wee hours of the morning but it also allows folks in the U.K., Australia, and New Zealand to get an agent at times during the day when the need was very great in the past. Such as in the afternoon, during rush hour or during the prime time evening hours. Pete Lane: Another brand new feature is the Aira messages feature. Messages allows Aira explorers and agents to communicate via text. There's a text box that pops up right on the Aira app and you can type or dictate your message directly to the agent. This is really useful if you're going into a meeting or library or a church for example where you want to be very quiet. You can text your communication to the agent telling them what you want, what tasks you want performed and things like that without having to talk and interrupt what's going on around you. Pete Lane: There are also about a half a dozen pre-set messages for more common situations that you can just tap on and send. Those pre-sets can be edited or completely changed depending on your needs. Another new feature is called Aira live. Aira live allows an explorer to broadcast the audio from their contact with an agent either to a small group of private listeners or to a larger group through a public live event. This allows others who download the app and either create a guest account or who are already Aira explorers to tap into the app, go to the live tab and see what live events are currently in session. Pete Lane: And finally we have a new edition to the Aira team, Anirudh Koul, founder of Seeing AI and former senior data scientist with Microsoft has joined the Aira team as the head of artificial intelligence and research. Big things are in store for Anirudh and we welcome him to the Aira staff. Thanks so much for listening to Blind Abilities. For more podcasts with the blindness perspective you can find us on the web at www.blindabilities.com we're on Facebook and on Twitter or download our free app from the app store or the Google Play store. That's two words, Blind Abilities. Once again this podcast is brought to you by Aira. Special thanks to Patrick Lane for his wonderful guitar music. Thanks so much for listening and have a great day.    

The first episode talks about how we should be creating video content for all the parts of the sales funnel. We invited Tyler Lessard, the VP of Marketing at Vidyard.  Here are the links to some of the things we spoke about on the podcast. Chalk TalksInbound marketing conferenceBrian Hallingan, CEO of Hubspot Transcript of the podcast episode Tyler Lessard: 50% of your content should be video. Peter: This is Time for Marketing. The marketing podcast that will tell you everything you've missed when you didn't attend the marketing conference. Peter: Hi, my name is Peter, and I welcome you to the very first episode of the Time for Marketing podcast. I'm a marketing person myself. I have worked in SEO, I've worked in content marketing, I've worked in email marketing, and because of that, I've been to a lot of marketing conferences. I've learned a lot there, but sadly, I was never able to go to all of the conferences I wanted to go to. That means, of course, I've missed a lot of interesting talks, and probably, so have you. The idea of what we're doing here is, we want to change that. We don't want to miss any interesting talks on any conference anymore. So, what I do in this podcast is I look for interesting people who speak at marketing conferences, I invite them and allow them to sum up their presentations in five minutes. I give them questions about what they told us, and release all that in a podcast. This is the very first episode. We have a lot of excellent guests lined up. We have a really nice guest for the first episode, and because I don't want you to miss any of the future guests, I will ask you to subscribe. You can, of course, go to iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts, and if you like the podcast, of course after you finish listening to it, go to iTunes and rate and comment on the podcast. All right, our first guest is-- Tyler: Tyler Lessard. Peter: He works at-- Tyler: I'm the VP marketing here at Vidyard. The company is a video platform for businesses. Peter: We found him as a speaker at the content marketing conference. The title of his presentation was, "The art of creating customer experiences with sight, sound, and motion." I would like to ask you to sum up your speech in the next five minutes, and give us the most important points that you gave at the conference. Tyler: Yes, absolutely. I think tied to what I said with regards to video being a more and more important part of the customer life cycle, I think most of us will agree that today's audiences expect richer or more personalized, more interesting communications. Whether it's your top of funnel marketing activities, whether it's how they're learning about your products and your company, how they're interacting with sales representatives, or even existing customers, how they're being educated on how to use your products or services, or how they're being communicated with by their account reps. Gone are the days of long text-based emails, and white papers, and things like that, and more and more it's about short-form blog content, short-form infographics, and of course, rich media and video content. One of the things that I'm really passionate about is this notion of, in this new world, as we're changing the ways we communicate with prospects and with customers, video becomes a very important part to how we build relationships and how we create really, what I call remarkable experiences with individuals. Again, as they more and more go into self-service mode, right? If you think back 10, 15 years, most B2B companies were about, there was more a direct sales process. You would have that face time with clients, and you'd build relationships as you go through that buyer's journey, but these days, that's getting less and less. People are more expecting to consume content on their own time and in their own digital worlds. As marketing and sales leaders, we need to be providing them with the kind of content that still builds relationships, that still wows them, that still builds an emotional connection to our brand. As I hinted at earlier, I don't think that text-based emails and white papers are enough to do that. Really, the impetus here is to challenge us as marketers to think about, how do we build relationships with prospects throughout the buyer's journey? How do we use things like video to connect in more emotional and engaging ways? As we look at, some of the big takeaways are, as you think about your top of funnel marketing. We've all thought about, we have some brand videos and things like that, but how does video become even a more important part of storytelling at that top of the funnel? Storytelling is really important to engage people, again, in a more emotional and personal conversation. How do we use visual content to relate to our potential buyers, to show them that we understand the pains that they're feeling, maybe to make them laugh, maybe to inspire them? Video is an incredible medium to do those kinds of things at the top of the funnel. Then as we move through the buyer's journey, again, video, I think is, this is where video is really an unsung hero, is how we educate and nurture our potential buyers. Again, I think this is really takeaway number two is, we need to be more prescriptive in how we think about using video during those education phases. When somebody is on our website, how are we showcasing our products or services to them? Are we forcing them to read big long documents? Or are we giving them a great two-minute explainer that shows them exactly what it is we do? As they're learning about different topics, we use a lot of video content now on our blogs to, again, showcase different ideas or to have real people explaining solutions or problems or ideas as opposed to just having the written word. It's not to say it should be all video, but it's a very important thing to start complimenting your other forms of content with video. I'll give you one really specific example that we do. We have a series called Chalk Talks. If you search for Vidyard and Chalk Talks, you'll find it. We have about 20 different Chalk Talk episodes, which are each about five to eight minutes in length. They go very specific on a certain topic in the world of video. For our customers, we have Chalk Talk episodes on how to build a video strategy, or how to use video in sales, or how to use video for SEO purposes. Each one is a very specific topic that gives you a lot of great detailed information, but it's delivered in a way that's very visual, very personal. It's usually myself on camera, and I find that people, we often get great feedback where they love that kind of content because they can relate to it. Again, because we're presenting it in a visual and audible way, it's more memorable, it's easier to learn than them reading long-form content. I think the big thing there, again, is just thinking about, how do we educate our buyers through rich media content, through video? As it can be a much more engaging and memorable content format. I think you've got those two things to think about. Video as top of funnel to really engage and build an emotional connection, video in mid-funnel to educate buyers and be more memorable in how you're doing that. Finally, the last takeaway is, how are our sales teams engaging these potential buyers? Are they doing it in a way that's really going to stand out and make people want to do business with the company? That's where empowering our sales teams with some of these great video content or, and this might seem frightening to some of you, but empowering our sales reps to record and send their own custom videos. Whether they're webcam videos where they're talking directly to a prospect, screen capture videos where they're, again, walking through a topic or showcasing what your products or services can do. I think these are things that we need to think a lot more about and, again, making sure our sales reps are also set up to be able to deliver the kinds of experiences that people expect today. I think those are really the main emphasis points that we're talking about, and it's this idea of creating a more immersive customer experience throughout that buyer's journey, using a rich range of on-demand video content, or one-to-one video messages. Peter: All right. These were very, very specific takeaways to how to use video in marketing. It seems that what you're saying is making companies open up a bit more. You said that salespeople should be able to generate video, and then use that video in their sales process when they feel that that should be positive for the sales process. This sort of sounds scary on one side, but on the other side, we've learned that the Internet makes companies open up, allows different channels and different people within the companies to start sending out the messages. This is yet another step that sounds really interesting, right? Tyler: I think you're absolutely right. You nailed it that there's a big trend here towards transparency, and towards rehumanizing the marketing and sales of businesses. I think honestly, over the last five to 10 years, a lot of the market, I think, went too far the other way. We over digitized and we started hiding behind our websites and our keyboards and our emails and things like that. I think a lot of businesses lost that personal and human touch out to their base. I think the younger generation, and the millennials, are really forcing that back because they're growing up on these social networks, and they're expecting more authentic, genuine human-to-human communication. They're recording and sending videos every day. The number of videos, there's over 10 billion videos played every single day on Snapchat, and over 100 million hours of video played back every day on Facebook. It's shaping this generation to be expecting authentic, simple video content as part of how they communicate. I think for some companies, it's a bit of a challenge because you need to think about, how am I going to create this content as a marketing organization? Or am I comfortable allowing my sales reps to record short videos and send them out? I think on the flip side, you have to think about the opportunity that exists there, and the ability for your people to tell better stories, to be more open and transparent, and to focus on, again, building human relationships. I think that's what will help a lot of companies stand out from the competition. Peter: As we probably prepare workflows and rules on how everyone within the company can be a voice on social media, if we prepare stuff like that for video creation, then probably we can create video that would be okay with everyone, or if everyone within the company creates that, we just need to have rules and ideas on how to do that. Right? Tyler: Yes. I absolutely, I think so. For more and more companies, what we're seeing, whether they're small 10-person companies, or large enterprises, is that more and more, they're building in some kind of video production capabilities or expertise in-house within the company. We heard this not long ago from-- actually, I recall a great quote from the CEO of HubSpot, Brian Halligan. HubSpot is a company that they were really the godfathers of inbound marketing, if you will, and they really built an industry around the idea of the blog. About a year and a half ago, at inbound, Brian Halligan got on stage and said, "50% of your content should be video." He said very directly, "Stop hiring bloggers, start hiring producers." This really struck me because this was an audience of 15,000 people who for the past five years had been told, "Hire bloggers, be great writers." Now, they're being told, "You need to hire producers." It wasn't to say get rid of the bloggers, and I think more and more, it's about, you need people with those skill sets who are comfortable and are able to create quick video content, and can help people in the organization. I think even if it's somebody in your company who, maybe that's not their primary role, but there's somebody who's adept at creating and editing video, a lot of people can do it now. Especially the younger generation. It amazes me even what my children and what my younger relatives can do. You just got to ask around. I think that's important to helping this sort of thing. Because if your CEO may not be comfortable recording something and putting it on social, but if there's somebody within the organization who can quickly get them on camera, do some really quick edits, and post it as a thought leadership video, do it. Get out there. Get those messages out, and find people in your company who can help with basic capture and editing. As long as the content is valuable, if it's authentic, and if it has pretty good audio, it could work, and you don't need to worry about high production value and spending $10,000 on an agency, just to record a quick two-minute educational piece of content. Peter: Yes. What's interesting with using video on different channels, or maybe let's call it using video content on different channels is what I've seen from Moz doing-- a lot of people know their Whiteboard Fridays, their weekly videos. Of course, the transcriptions of those videos for a long time. We started right now is also producing a podcast or having audio recordings, and then posting them on SoundCloud, I believe. Directly from video, what they do is they create one message, but then they are able to send that message out on three different channels. Video, text, and audio. Of course, that then helps on social media, that can help on organic traffic with a lot of text. Of course, podcasts have, especially in the US, a big number of listeners. Probably, video as a starting point for content is very good, and then you should spread it out. Tyler: Yes, I love that. We actually took some of the inspiration for our own Chalk Talks video series from Whiteboard Fridays. We said, "Well, let's take a chalkboard approach instead of a whiteboard approach for a different visual style." We took a great cue from Rand Fishkin and the Moz folks that I think showed you can create that kind of content on high frequency, on a weekly basis, without having to put a ton of additional effort into it. If you come up with a repeatable format, and exactly to your point, Peter, when we create those Chalk Talk videos, every one of those goes out as a blog post, and we transcribe the audio, and the transcription becomes a part of that. They go into our main resource center on our website, where again, the transcriptions are a part of the page, so people searching for it can find them, and then our sales team uses those a ton. When they're out there engaging with customers or prospects, they'll use those videos as a way to answer commonly asked questions or to help educate or nurture them through the buyer's journey. There's lots of different ways in which that-- and then as well as you mentioned, the audio can be repurposed as podcasts. It really is a great way to create a hub and spoke model of content. Let's start with a video, and then you can branch off and turn it into a variety of different related assets. It's a great approach. Peter: All right. Video cannot only be used as a top of funnel channel, but should be used as the middle and the bottom of the funnel channel, and video should probably use-- the content that is produced for video should probably be used in different channels, and this will make the production not cheaper, but because the content that is made once will be used on different channels, the production will be-- Tyler: Generate more return and more value from those pieces of content. You nailed it. Absolutely, Peter, you nailed it. Peter: Yes. Are those the four takeaways that we can leave our listeners with? Tyler: I think you've got it. I think that was a great summary, and yes. All of that comes down to, just do it. Don't be afraid to start thinking about how to create more video content. A big underpinning idea to make all those things happen is, try to do more content in-house. Don't think that every time you want to create a video, you need to go out to an expensive agency. Yes, just do it on top of those big four ideas. I think we got it, Peter. Peter: All right. Thank you very much, Tyler. This was an excellent recap of why and how to use video. This was a very nice first episode of the podcast. You were an excellent guest, and I'm really glad we did that. Have a great day in Canada, nice wishes from Slovenia. This is it. Tyler: Thank you very much, and thank you for having me. Happy marketing, everyone. All the best. Peter: This was episode number one. Nothing else to add at the end of the podcast than go and subscribe, go and rate, go and vote, go and listen. Have a great day.

配乐：《Deep East Music - Goodie Three Shoes》笨笨口语四步法Ben's Four Steps第一步：音节分解第二步：逐个单词第三步：连读分解第四步：一气呵成How long will it take me to get there?　　到那里大概要多久？NO.1音节分解（多音节词详细分解，方便读音与记忆）无 NO.2逐个单词（标准美音慢速朗读，讲解拼读、音标、词法、语法）How怎么样  long长的  will将要  it它 take花费  me我  to get到达  there那里拼读与音标长元音/i:/ 例词：me（单音节）我sheep（单音节）绵羊receive（re-ceive）收到field（单音节）田地词法与语法无NO.3连读分解（连读略读，全面分解，真正说出一口流利美式英语）连读will it→will it     wi lit略读take me→take me   ta  me get there→get there   ge  thereNO.4一气呵成（慢速朗读，反复收听，大声模仿，脱口而出)How long / will it / take me / to get there?　　到那里大概要多久？英英解释单词学英语思维（既然是英英解释，不再提供中文翻译）take：花费，占用(时间) If something takes a certain amount of time, that amount of time is needed in order to do it. 问路情景对话：　1.Could you tell me the way to...?　　1.请问去...该怎么走？　　Vicky: Excuse me. Could you tell me the way to the Star Hotel?　　薇琦：不好意思，请问晨星酒店怎么走？　　Peter: Yes. Go down the main road. You can't miss it.　　彼得：喔，沿着大路往前走，就可以找到。　　Vicky: How long will it take me to get there?　　薇琦：到那里大概要多久？　　Peter: It's only about a five-minute walk.　　彼得：只要走5分钟左右。　　Vicky: Thank you very much.　　薇琦：非常感谢。　　Peter: You're welcome.　　彼得：不用客气。　2.I think I'm lost here.　　2.我想我迷路了。　　Vincent: Good morning, madam. I think I'm lost here. The place I want to go to is a hotel called the Hilton.　　小姐，早安。我想我迷路了，我要去希尔顿大酒店。　　Annie: Do you know in which area?　　你知道是在哪一个地区吗？　　Vincent: No, I am sorry I have no idea. I am a stranger here.　　对不起，我不知道，我没有来过这里。　　Annie: I see. Well, do you know anything near the hotel?　　这样啊。那你知道酒店附近有什么地标吗？　　Vincent: Oh, yes. My friend told me the hotel was near the Central Railway Station.　　知道，我朋友说是在中央火车站附近。　　Annie: Then you'll have to take a bus and get off at the Central Railway Station.　　那么你就坐公交车到中央火车站下车。　　Vincent: Can you show me where the Central Railway Station is on this map?　　可不可以请你指给我看，中央火车站在地图上的什么地方？　　Annie: OK.　　可以啊。

配乐：《Deep East Music - Goodie Three Shoes》笨笨口语四步法Ben's Four Steps第一步：音节分解第二步：逐个单词第三步：连读分解第四步：一气呵成How long will it take me to get there?　　到那里大概要多久？NO.1音节分解（多音节词详细分解，方便读音与记忆）无NO.2逐个单词（标准美音慢速朗读，讲解拼读、音标、词法、语法）How怎么样  long长的  will将要  it它 take花费  me我  to get到达  there那里拼读与音标长元音/i:/例词：me（单音节）我sheep（单音节）绵羊receive（re-ceive）收到field（单音节）田地词法与语法无NO.3连读分解（连读略读，全面分解，真正说出一口流利美式英语）连读will it→will it     wi lit略读take me→take me   ta  me get there→get there   ge  thereNO.4一气呵成（慢速朗读，反复收听，大声模仿，脱口而出)How long / will it / take me / to get there?　　到那里大概要多久？英英解释单词学英语思维（既然是英英解释，不再提供中文翻译）take：花费，占用(时间) If something takes a certain amount of time, that amount of time is needed in order to do it. 问路情景对话：　1.Could you tell me the way to...?　　1.请问去...该怎么走？　　Vicky: Excuse me. Could you tell me the way to the Star Hotel?　　薇琦：不好意思，请问晨星酒店怎么走？　　Peter: Yes. Go down the main road. You can't miss it.　　彼得：喔，沿着大路往前走，就可以找到。　　Vicky: How long will it take me to get there?　　薇琦：到那里大概要多久？　　Peter: It's only about a five-minute walk.　　彼得：只要走5分钟左右。　　Vicky: Thank you very much.　　薇琦：非常感谢。　　Peter: You're welcome.　　彼得：不用客气。　2.I think I'm lost here.　　2.我想我迷路了。　　Vincent: Good morning, madam. I think I'm lost here. The place I want to go to is a hotel called the Hilton.　　小姐，早安。我想我迷路了，我要去希尔顿大酒店。　　Annie: Do you know in which area?　　你知道是在哪一个地区吗？　　Vincent: No, I am sorry I have no idea. I am a stranger here.　　对不起，我不知道，我没有来过这里。　　Annie: I see. Well, do you know anything near the hotel?　　这样啊。那你知道酒店附近有什么地标吗？　　Vincent: Oh, yes. My friend told me the hotel was near the Central Railway Station.　　知道，我朋友说是在中央火车站附近。　　Annie: Then you'll have to take a bus and get off at the Central Railway Station.　　那么你就坐公交车到中央火车站下车。　　Vincent: Can you show me where the Central Railway Station is on this map?　　可不可以请你指给我看，中央火车站在地图上的什么地方？　　Annie: OK.　　可以啊。

Barbara: Hi Peter, sorry to bother you, but do you know where Liz is? Peter: Yes, she's actually in hospital. Barbara: Hospital? Oh, no! Is she alright? Peter: Yes, it's nothing serious. She had gone to her mother's surprise party, and when her mother walked in, Liz jumped forward and slipped on a slippery rug. She fell forward into a table, and broke her nose. Barbara: Ouch! Oh, the poor thing! And at her mother's party too! Peter: I know. I feel bad for her. She needed a small operation, but she should be home tomorrow, I think. Barbara: I must go and take her some flowers. Thanks Peter, I'll see you later! Click the link for the Android app

1. Peter: Hi Liz, hey great jacket. 2. Liz: Thanks Peter. It's new. What do you think? Does it suit me? 3. Peter: Yes, its the perfect color for you. 4. Liz: I decided that it's time for a new coat. My other clothes are for the winter, and I end up getting too hot, now that it is spring. 5. Peter: I know what you mean. The weather changes a lot; sometimes the wind is quite cold, and then the next thing you know, it's sunny. 6. Liz: Exactly. That's why I bought this jacket. It's a wind blocker, and it's light. I can have more layers of clothing underneath. Peter: I didn't know you were so fashionable, Liz! Follow the link to buy or rate my app. // //   //   //