Podcasts about elizabeth you

Live from the buzzing floor of ShopTalk Spring, Phillip, Brian, and marketing expert Elizabeth Schmidt unpack everything from nostalgic branding and Gen Z marketing to luxury retail and AI in education. We digest key themes we heard during ShopTalk in real-time and share a compelling look at how relationships and storytelling are driving the next chapter in retail.You Can't Optimize Your Way to A MythKey takeaways:[02:30] CEO Richard Dixon emphasized Gap's legacy as a canvas for American culture and its pivot toward digital-first experiences while embracing nostalgia.[08:30] Kevin O'Leary argues that if you're spending $50K/month and not investing in TV (linear and streaming), you're missing out. His brands spend 40% of ad dollars there.[18:00] Accenture outlined 7 dimensions of luxury today—adding experience, innovation, and social value to the classic trio of heritage, exclusivity, and craftsmanship.[30:30] Zadig & Voltaire targets Gen Z—but it's Gen X parents doing the buying. Smart multi-generational strategy in play.[15:20] Thoughtful, non-promotional SMS messages (like a GIF with no CTA) outperformed sales-driven texts in some cases—surprising and powerful.[24:30] The LORE Activation – Future Commerce's “Book of Lore” pop-up at ShopTalk captured personal brand confessions and created physical artifacts of digital culture."Gap is a canvas... a portfolio of American brands that shape culture." – Elizabeth quoting Richard Dixon"Any brand spending $50K/month on ads not doing TV is doing it wrong." – Elizabeth quoting Kevin O'Leary“Brighten your customers' day—don't just sell. Some of our best SMS responses came from a simple, feel-good GIF.” – Elizabeth"40% of their customer base is Gen Z, but they're actually winning Gen X because the parents are the ones that are buying... To have a brand that can appeal to two completely separate demographics is incredible." – Elizabeth“You have an always-on advertising channel that's just playing ambiently all the time… and that is extraordinarily powerful.” – Phillip"Myths are made when relationships are formed... and this year, ShopTalk feels like a place where those stories begin." – BrianIn-Show Mentions:@Art_lust on TikTokAssociated Links:Order LORE by Future CommerceCheck out Future Commerce on YouTubeCheck out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and printSubscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce worldListen to our other episodes of Future CommerceHave any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

Are you ready to skyrocket your knowledge of Amazon PPC? In this TACoS Tuesday episode, prepare to be amazed as we bring you the secrets of the trade from none other than Elizabeth Greene, the co-founder of Amazon ads agency Junglr. Dive into the world of data analytics and learn why understanding the numbers behind the numbers is crucial. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned seller, we've got insights that are bound to give your Amazon PPC game a boost. We talk about the core strategies for launching new products, from using supplementary keywords to strategic ad placements. We uncover the importance of context when branching into new markets and how to leverage different keyword match types to target specific search terms. Learn about optimizing strategies for Black Friday and Cyber Monday, and how to manage your budget effectively during these peak seasons. Lastly, ignite your understanding of advertising for branded products on Amazon. We debate the significance of tracking the share of search and using Search Query Performance reports, and reveal our strategies for advertising for products with only a few relevant keywords. Tune in and take away valuable strategies and insights that will elevate your Amazon advertising game to new heights.   In episode 511 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Shivali and Elizabeth talk about: 00:00 - It's Time For Another TACoS Tuesday Episode! 05:34 - Evaluating and Auditing PPC Strategy  08:10 - Analyzing Ad Spend Efficiency and Impact 12:34 - Advertising Strategy and Keyword Targeting 17:45 - Advertising Strategy for New Product Launch 25:32 - Keyword Research Using Helium 10 30:51 - Using Keywords and Sales Volume 36:31 - Optimizing Bids for Better Ad Performance 42:22 - Control Ad Spend, Gain Campaign Impressions ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Shivali Patel: Today, on TACoS Tuesday, we answer all of your PPC questions live, as well as discuss what you could be doing in terms of launching and auditing your PPC campaigns during the Q4 season. Bradley Sutton: How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Want to enter in an Amazon keyword and then within seconds, get up to thousands of potentially related keywords that you could research. Then you need Magnet by Helium 10. For more information, go to h10.me/magnet. Magnet works in most Amazon marketplaces, including USA, Mexico, Australia, Germany, UK, India and much more. Shivali Patel: All right, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Series Dollars podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Shivali Patel, and this is the show that is our monthly TACoS Tuesday presentation, where we talk anything and everything Amazon ads. So today we have a special guest with us, and that is Elizabeth Greene, who is the co-founder of an Amazon ads agency called Junglr. So with that, let's go ahead and bring her up. Hi, Elizabeth, how are you? I'm doing well, how are you? Elizabeth: Very good. Shivali Patel: So, nice to have you on. Thank you for joining us. Elizabeth: Yeah, thanks for having me. These are always, always fun. Shivali Patel: And what an exciting time to be talking about Amazon ads to a fat. It's cute for you. Oh my goodness, you must be slammed. Elizabeth: Life is a little bit crazy right now, but you know it comes with the territory. Shivali Patel: So it does. It is peak season I see we have someone coming, so it's a very exciting time to be in business and I'm looking forward to reading your questions and hopefully having Elizabeth answer them Now. The first question here says what can you suggest for a beginner like me, who is just starting out, and what and where can I learn to grow as much as possible? Elizabeth: I would actually say there's two skills that one, in the beginning, none of us have, and they are skills and they can be learned, even though they're considered more quote, soft skills. Data analytics made it not as much. Shivali Patel: My two things are going to be. Elizabeth: Data analytics and communication skills Community Asian sales are, you're going to find, are quite important when it comes to management of accounts management of accounts that are not your own. So if you are, even if you're a brand manager in a company or, you know, obviously, at an agency seller and a sourcing person, okay then I'm going to go with data analytics. Data analytics are going to be your friend. The things that I've kind of discovered have been, like you know, sort of mind blowing. For me are the numbers behind, the numbers Meaning. So when you're trying to evaluate ACoS, right, a lot of people are like, oh, it costs one up, it costs with down. Great, I know this, I can look at the account. What the heck am I going to do about it? Data analytics really good data analytics not only tell you the what, but the why and then the what next. So you're, if you can get really really good at the why and the what next, that's going to really set you apart and the way that I kind of have come to it. This is my own personal journey. Maybe there's other people who are way smarter than me, have way better journeys, but for me it has been, again understanding the numbers behind the numbers to have, for example, right, you start in a little bit of a way, it's kind of like the matrix. Elizabeth: So when you're breaking down, say ACoS, right, you go, okay, ACoS one up, big, else one down. Why right, what the heck happened? You're like, oh, wait, I can calculate ACoS by ad spend divided by ad sales. Okay, so it's either that ad spend went up and sales remain consistent or went down, or ad sales went down and spend remain consistent. She like, oh, okay, there's those two variables. Okay, now I can say, okay, ad spend increased. And then I can go, okay, ad spend increased. Great, I know that why. And then you're like, okay, so I can calculate my ad spend by my cost per click, by my number of clicks. Elizabeth: So either my cost per click went up or the number of clicks happening in my account went up. And then you can look at those two variables and go, oh, okay, it's the number of clicks. Why? Oh, I just launched a whole bunch of new stuff. Okay, that's why. Or my cost per click went up exponentially. Why? Maybe you know, it's just a natural market change thing. Talking about prime time, peak season, now you're probably going to see cost per clicks going up. It's a market thing. Versus other times you might have aggressively increased a whole bunch of bits in your account and so then you go check back. So data analytics that's the way I view it. I am not classically trained on data analytics, I just have looked at it for over five years now and tried to figure out the what the heck is going on a question and the what to do about it questions, and so those. That's my way of sort of. I've learned to sort of peer into the matrix. So if you can get really good at understanding not just what the data is but what it's telling you, that's really going to get you to the next level. Shivali Patel: Definitely, and I think a lot of people have very different strategies. I think Elizabeth's strategy, you know, is definitely one you should take into consideration. But also, the best way to learn is going to be trial and error and until you're really sifting through your own data, I think it's going to be hard to you know gauge sort of what's happening. I think a lot of things in business are just as they come. Now I want to kind of take the other side of that and go into, let's say, somebody's not a beginner, right, somebody's been selling for a while. They're more established. What do you recommend to somebody who might be evaluating or trying to audit their own PPC strategy? Elizabeth: Next level is going to be evaluating things on a per product level. And let me clarify when I say per product, I mean per listing. The reason why is the data gets kind of funky when you pull it down to a skew level. You definitely can, but there's some nuances that you really want to be aware of that can kind of lead you in the wrong direction if you're looking at a per skewer, per child days and level. But if you can start looking at your ad strategy, your sales growth, everything through the lens of listings, that's really going to take you to the next level. Shivali Patel: So when you see listings, are you talking about maybe like the conversion metrics? Are you looking at the keywords that you're using, sort of what is like the underlying factors? I guess all the above. Elizabeth: Honestly, but to make sense of it all. Because, to your point, like force for the trees, if you look at like everything, then do you walk away being like I have no idea what in the world I'm supposed to focus on? So the way that we've begun looking at it and the reason why we started looking at it like this is because we managed several clothing accounts. Talk about complexity, talk about force for the trees. You're like where in the world do I start? And you want to make impact on these accounts. Right, you can't just like all right, I did my bit, adjustments and call it good. Like you really want to get at our hands dirty and like really start improving the accounts. But you're like where in the world do I focus? So what we've started doing is percentage of total have been a little bit of a game changer. They're not, it's not the newest thing on the block. A lot of people use this percentage of total, but the two things that we look at is the percentage of total sales of each. Again, we're talking about a listing level. Again, reason clothing you have up to hundreds of different SKUs on a per listing level. Like how the heck do you make sense of it. So how do we make sense of it is rolling it up to the parent listing level and then looking at the percentage of total ad spend, again on a per listing. Elizabeth: So this gives you a lot of clarity into what products are driving the most sales for the brand. And then, what products are we spending, are we investing the most ad spend on? And when you look at it this way, it's very common to have these things happen in the account. If you haven't been paying attention to them, you oftentimes will see like oh wow, this product's driving 2% of my total sales volume and I'm spending 10% of my total ad spend here. Like that's probably a discrepancy. Maybe I should go and adjust those ads. So that gives you a lot of clarity. And then to court of gauge because again we're an ad agency, so ads are the thing that we focus on the most to help and drive improvements for the brands is we will look at the impact of the total spend on that per product. So again, percentage of total ad spend, and then we'll look at what we call like quote ad spend efficiencies, meaning ACoS, Total ACoS, ad sale percentage, also the delta between your ad conversion rate and your total conversion rate. Our unit session percentage is actually really helpful gauge. And so we're like, okay, we're investing most of our dollars here. How is our efficiency on that large investment? Elizabeth: And then you can sort of pinpoint like, oh, wow, I'm investing most of my ad spend into this product, to the point of like 5% of total brand sales, 13% of total ad spend investments. And wow, the ad spend investments are really unprofitable. Now, if you're in a launch phase, there might I mean there's context that you need to add to the numbers, to the point of like telling the story with data. And if you're managing the brand, you probably know the context. But at least it goes as okay. So here's two products we should dig into more. Here's two products we need to probably invest more of our ad spend on. And it really starts to clarify things when you really kind of understand how to see the picture in that way. Shivali Patel: To kind of follow up on that how do you really end up deciding which keywords to go after, as well as, maybe, how to really structure them into campaigns in accordance with your budget, because I know that's different for everyone? Elizabeth: Yes, it definitely is. We will always focus on relevancy first in the beginning. Now there are certain times if you're doing like a brand awareness play or you're like, wow, I've really targeted my market and I need to branch out, like what's the next hill? Absolutely go after categories, you know like, go after those brand awareness plays. But if you're in the beginning and you're in a launch, the nuance of Amazon advertising is you're not building, you don't build the audience. Amazon has built the audience for you. Elizabeth: All we're looking to do is use specific keywords or search terms to get in front of the audience that is already existing and that's where relevancy comes in. So you're saying where is my specific shopper? What are they using to search for products like mine? And I need to make sure I'm showing up there. So we're always going to prioritize that. That typically is going to get you better conversions, you know, better clicks, more interactions with your brand and which leads to more sales. And then also on the flip side, and if you're doing this on launch, it is a really good product sort of evaluation, because if you're showing up exactly in front of your target shoppers and your click rate is terrible and your conversion rate is terrible and like nobody's buying, there's probably a signal that maybe there's things to adjust with the listing or other factors that you should look into. Shivali Patel: Do you ever go into, like branch into, I guess, supplementary keywords where maybe it's not exactly for the product but it's maybe like a related product, and where do you really place those sort of ads? Elizabeth: Yeah, so when we'll do it is really dependent on the overall performance and the ads spend or profit goals, right? I mean, it seems so stupid, simple, but if you are advertising more, you're going to be spending more, and if you're struggling to bring down Total ACoS or ACoS again, ad spend divided by ad sales, the one thing you can control with ads is ad spend. So in those cases when we're looking to bring down Total ACoS, we're typically looking at pulling back on ad spend. So if a product or brand is in that phase, I'm not going to be like let's launch all these broad things and we're not quite sure how they're going to convert, right? So context is really key here, but when it comes to branching out, it really is dependent. Elizabeth: You will find certain products on launch where, like, for some reason, it's really difficult to convert on the highly relevant terms but, like adjacent markets or, to your point, like somewhat related keywords or related products, actually work really well. So we're always going to prioritize what's working. So if we're like finding all of these search terms that are popping up through, like, say, broad match or autos or something, wow, we weren't aware that this is actually a really great market for us. But it's very obvious, looking at the data, that's something that we should, that's a direction we should go in. Then obviously we'll push towards that direction. But depending on if we're going to like decide to branch out on our own, it probably is highly dependent on the ad spend and then also sort of the phase of the product, meaning like how we kind of conquered everything and what's our next play. Shivali Patel: And in terms of when you are launching, yes, we're going for the most relevant keywords, right, that are where you can find your target audience. But what about in terms of exact match, like yes, are you going directly into exact match and auto and broad all at the same time? Are you just kind of doing exact first and then branching into auto? Elizabeth: Yeah, so we do like exact first. I'm still a huge fan of like all the above, exact phrase and broad. The one thing that we have found is like within your exact match, you can just be more specific on what search pages you're spending your ad dollars on. So if you, especially if you have limited budgets in the beginning and you're like, hey, I really want to make sure that I hyper target these keywords, exact match makes a lot of sense. Now, if you're talking about you like branching out, we're still going to prioritize putting a higher bids on our exact match keyword. So we're still going to try and have most of. Elizabeth: Let me say this if you're going to be aggressively spending on a specific search page, you're like I've identified this keyword, this is my ranking keyword, I'm going to put a lot of budget behind it. Exact match all the way. Now I don't want anyone to say that clip and be like wow, she hates broad and freight. Like, no, I love all the above. Like we run autos, run multiple autos, category targeting, like all the above, do it. But if you're trying to get really aggressive with something, it's just it's the nature of how the match type works more than like it's quote best, because they don't really think it is. Shivali Patel: Now I do see that we have some new questions, so let me go ahead and pop them up. We have can you give a refresher on how people can do modifiers, since nowadays exact sometimes performs as phrase match and phrase sometimes is like broad. So if someone wants to make sure that an exact is that exact two word phrase is adding plus in the middle self that. Elizabeth: Yes, it does, but caveat, it only officially does in sponsor brand ads. If you look at the document, I mean I gotta go check it because they're like they keep updating the documentation on the slide and like not notifying us. But from my understanding and from the reps I've talked to, and also the search storm reports, I've seen modified broad match I don't believe a hundred percent works all the time in sponsored product ads, which is super annoying. So for those of you listening who are unaware of what a modified broad match is or modified search terms, modified broad match is a thing in sponsor brand ads. So the way that broad match keywords work in sponsored brand ads and they have sense care that over to sponsor product ads is that it cannot only target. You know we do classic broad match, right, you can put keywords in the middle, you can swap stuff around. But like if I had the keyword running shoe, right, both the word running and the word shoe must be present in the search term for your kind of traditional sponsor product broad match. It's not the case anymore. Elizabeth: You can target what's called related keywords. So for example, one would be like sneaker, right, it's kind of related to running shoe. And if you wanna say. I stuck a screenshot out on LinkedIn not that long ago and I was like, how is this relevant? Like one of them, it was like targeting like a bread knife and the search term that it triggered was like ballerina farm, go figure, I don't know, but like, so you can get like this really weird, funky stuff. So what we do to kind of combat that one, just keep up on your negatives these days, like, keep a sharp eye on your search and reports and add those negatives. Elizabeth: But the one thing that you can do is just sort of like to Bradley's point make each those individual words have to show up is if, in front of each of those words that you want to make sure are present in the search term, you can add a little plus symbol. So in the example of like, say running shoes, I would say plus shoes, plus what is our running whatever? Plus running, plus shoes, right, and then that would trigger to the algorithm. Okay, you have to use these things inside of your searches, which again is a factor in sponsored brand ads. If you look at the documentation, they do say that modified broad match is a thing and it's been a thing for a while. I just hasn't been super popular. But I haven't read documentation that they've rolled that over into sponsored product ads. I don't think it's a bad idea to get in the practice of using modified broad match and sponsored product ads though. Shivali Patel: Okay, thank you for answering that question. We also have another one that says I'm going to be launching a brand new store for FBA and Shopify for my own manufactured product. What will you suggest that I do for the first few months? Elizabeth: Well, I'm gonna assume that the question is saying, with ads because that's my area of expertise like new product launches, there's a lot. So definitely follow @HumanTank because they way more than just add advice to offer you. But as far as the advertising, I would prioritize keyword research for the product launches. That actually would be really helpful when you're trying to vet even the space for your particular products. And then I would again, I would hyper focus on relevancy in the beginning. I would run that in exact match, probably high bids. Elizabeth: In the beginning you're looking for two things. You're looking to get eyeballs on your product, ideally those eyeballs conferring to sales that is remain to be seen, based on how appealing your product is to the market and how good your search pages et cetera. But you want to get eyeballs in the product and then you want to use those eyeballs to sort of vet again how much these shoppers like your particular product for purchase. So that's what I do. I would focus on those again for like the first couple weeks is typically what we do, and then you might sort of branch out into phrase match run, auto campaigns et cetera. Now here's a trick is how many keywords you choose in the beginning to launch is actually going to be determined by your budgets. So I have seen so many sellers in the groups like they'll be like oh my gosh, I just launched and launched my ads and I'm spending like $1,000 a day and I can't afford it and I don't know what's going on. Again, it's simple, kind of seems like stupid logic but the more keywords you're advertising on, the more clicks you're gonna get, the more cost per clicks you're gonna pay, the higher ads spent. So you actually want to factor in what you're doing for your launch strategy with your budgets. Elizabeth: Like I just got off a client call and we're like all right, we have these new product launches. Yeah, it's a really competitive space. It's like skincare. We're not gonna have reviews in the beginning. You know what? In the beginning we're gonna keep ad budgets really lean and we have a really good brand recognition. We're just gonna leverage brand recognition because we know the conversion rates are gonna be there. It's gonna help us get the initial products. But we also are understanding that if that's the strategy we're running again a little bit more limited, just leveraging brand lower budgets we're not expecting the sales to be exponential in the beginning. So it's like setting expectations and then kind of understanding what makes sense for you at this stage. Shivali Patel: Okay, and, keeping that in mind, the review portion that you're mentioning, right, yeah, you end up like, let's say, for example I'm not sure if I'll pronounce it right, but in Sweat's example right, his question when he's launching, do you end up waiting for the reviews to file in before you are running those ads or do you end up just kind of going in? And of course, there's many moving components, yeah, there's a lot of moving parts. Elizabeth: It depends on what the brand's wants to do. Typically we will start running stuff out of the gate Again. We just kind of set expectations. The reason why ACoS is so high in the beginning is for two reasons. One, your conversion rate tends to be a little bit lower and then, two, your cost per clicks tend to be a little bit higher because you really are trying to get aggressive to be able to get that visibility on the product and then over time, ideally, conversion rates improve because you get more reviews and then cost per clicks hopefully go down as you optimize. So between those two things, that helps it get better. So we just set expectations with like hey, because conversion rates are low means it takes more clicks to convert, which means ACoS is gonna be a little bit higher and we expect potentially sales not to be still or out of the gate. Sometimes it'll be surprised. Sometimes you launch a product and you're like, wow, this is amazing, this thing just absolutely took off and I hope for all of you listening, that is the case for you and your new products, but it's not always the case. So it's really more setting expectations and then just deciding what makes sense for you. Shivali Patel: Why would someone create like a branded campaign If they've already have their standard stuff? Do you maybe want to talk a little bit about branded campaigns? Elizabeth: Yeah, there's two kinds of branded campaigns. One is considered branded, or maybe brand defense is what you might call it. One of them is you have a whole bunch of products. Which you might do is you would advertise your own products on your other listings. The goal of that is you'd be like, hey, if somebody is going to click off, they might as well click onto my own product. Again, it's called a defensive strategy because you're plugging people off and refer to it. It's like plugging the ad spots. My competition can't get this ad spot on my listing. The other thing that you might do is if you have any branded searches happening so people searching your brand on Amazon then what you can do is you can again advertise your own products. Elizabeth: There's a lot of debate out there. They're like, oh, if I already have people searching for my brand, why in the world would I be spending on it? Because they're going to convert for my brand anyways. Yeah, there's arguments to be made. The things that you can do is you actually track your share of search in using search query performance reports to look at your own branded traffic and be like am I losing out on sales through my branded traffic? That's something you can do if you want to be like, is it worth it for me to run? But the second thing and the one I was referring to when I was talking about that more specific launch that we're doing is if you have great brand recognition meaning there's a lot of people searching for your brand you've already built up a lot of traffic to your current listings and you have a new product that fits very well into that brand. Elizabeth: So example I just gave was we have a brand that has a skincare line. Right, they have their launching complimentary products. They have really good repeat purchase rates. What we can do is for people searching their brand, we can make sure that the new products are then advertised and show up high on their branded search, where they might show up lower before if we weren't leveraging ads for that. And then what happens is someone's typing in the brand like oh, wow, there's a new product from this brand. Awesome, and most likely not always, but of course you know you read the data, but most likely you're going to get people purchasing very similar. You know you can use ads to be able to get visibility again on your own products, but you're using your new offering. So that's kind of a way to like. If you have a good brand, share to be like. Hey, I got a new product. I want to try it out using ads. Shivali Patel: Got it, and I see Sasha has a question here, and it is what's the best way to research Amazon keywords for low competition products? And I'll go ahead and add as well what do you do in the case if, let's say, there is not necessarily a market, maybe it's a brand new product that doesn't end up having any sort of crossover? You're creating a sub niche. Elizabeth: Yes, those are the most difficult. The two most difficult products to advertise for are one to your point of like there really is no relevant traffic for it. Or two, when you only have one keyword that has any search volume and there's like nothing else besides one or two keywords, because every single one of your competitors knows those one or two keywords and there's really not anything else to choose from. So there's not really a way to like play a sophisticated game. You just got to like grin and bear it in those categories, which is like kind of painful sometimes. So reword I mean your keyword research is really going to be exactly the same as for any other product. You're going to be looking at your competitors, seeing what they rank you for. I mean, we use Helium 10, love Helium 10, just did a walkthrough of how we did keyword research using Helium 10. Like it's a really great tool. Elizabeth: The one different way that we have of generating your first keyword. We actually generate two keyword less in the beginning. So what we'll do is we'll use, say, like a commonly searched keyword. So a lot of times people will start with like all right, type in a commonly searched keyword and then like, look at the ranked competitors, choose them, you know, choose the relevant ones and then go through that. What we will do is we will take that first you know pretty general keyword that we're pretty sure is relevant to the products, and what we'll do is we'll type that into. Elizabeth: I'm going to get them mixed up. I'm going to say it's magnet, it's the keyword research tool, so you type it in and then you look at search, so you sort by search volume and what we'll do is we'll actually go down that first list and find what we call our highest search volume, most relevant keyword. So what you're looking for is the intersection between where you actually have good shop or search, and it is also relevant to your product, because the more hyper relevant you get to the product, typically speaking, not always the lower your search volume is going to be. On those keywords You're like all right, what's my top of the mountain? Because oftentimes people will be like, oh, metal cup, that's a great keyword, yes, but it's not highly relevant keyword. So you're looking for, like women's metal cup for running or something like is there a good search volume there? How can I like niche down a set? And then what we'll do is we'll take that search page for a highly relevant keyword and use that as our springboard to find our top competitors. Shivali Patel: So we do also have a question from David where he asks how would you use not sure what that's supposed to say for top competitive keywords when your product have multiple attributes such as gold diamond ring, gold solid hair ring and engagement rings should I run through, bro, on each? I'm assuming that's just supposed to be. How would you search for top competitive keywords? So? Yeah so I would, I would just look for. Elizabeth: I would look for whatever is the highest relevancy, highest search volume, one that's going to give it and you're going to have a lot of applicable keywords. So the walkthrough that I did I think it's just yesterday what we did is we were looking at baby blanket, and what we start doing with our final keyword list when we're looking again we're prioritizing relevancy is you will find what we call buckets of keywords, right. So when I was doing baby blanket, it was like girls receiving blanket, receiving blanket for boys, like some like okay, there's a bunch of girl keywords and their bunch of boy keywords and these are actually a little bit related to specific variations. You can start getting really sophisticated with it. But as you do that keyword research and as you're looking for that relevancy, you're probably going to find a lot of these buckets. So what we'll do on launch is we'll like take our group out and be like okay, so to your point, we have a bunch of diamond keywords. Elizabeth: Oh wait, I have a bunch of solitary keywords, right. So you can actually group those. I can take all my solitary ones and be like hmm, I wonder if the search term solitaire is. I wonder if people like my product in relation to that search. Okay, so let me take that out. Let me put those in their own campaign. I'll label the campaign like solitary keywords or something and then I would advertise the products there or engagement ranks, right, okay, maybe that's applicable to my products. Let me again pull those out and put them in a subgroup and a campaign. The reason why I like doing this is because then I can just scan campaign manager instead of having to like go in and like, look at a campaign with, like the solitaire keywords, engagement ring keywords, gold, diamond keywords. I can be like, oh, these are sub group in campaigns and then when I'm in campaign manager, I can simply look at how each of those three campaigns are performing and be like oh, wow, it seems like gold, diamond ring keywords actually perform best and you still want to analyze at a keyword level. But that makes it a little bit more scalable to like understand shop or search behavior in relation to your product. Shivali Patel: Now I see that David also would like to know about the filter for keyword sales filter, which it is essentially just telling you on average how many sales occur for that particular keyword every single month. So that's really what you're looking at there, but, Elizabeth, maybe you want to expand on whether that's something that you end up looking at when you're doing your keyword research for these different brands that you work with. Elizabeth: I don't really Everything honest. The two things that I look at actually probably three things is I would like to look at. We look at numbers to the count of competitors that are ranking again, because we're doing that whole like find, you know, do the first list to find the second keyword, to find the really really super specific products. So if you can find good super specific products, then you can kind of like use their ranking on the keywords. So actually I love that Helium 10 added in that column because it was one that a lot of us were like calculating. Elizabeth: When I'm like God, I don't have to do the formula, I just already filter for the list, so it's really awesome. So we'll download that list and then you know, we'll just see what's the highly relevant and the kind of cross check that with search volume you can use. I don't think it's a bad idea to use, you know, kind of like the sales volume, because sometimes what you'll find is that even though there's like a high search volume, if the keyword is sort of like a little bit broader keyword, you might actually not have as much sales volume through those keywords as you would think. So it's not a bad idea to analyze it at all. We just find if we're like again, we're super honed in on that relevancy factor, then we tend to come up with the ones that have better sales volume anyways. Shivali Patel: Okay, I think that's really, really insightful. We also have Sergio. Sergio, do you like to use the same keywords for each campaign in broad phrase, and exact campaigns? Elizabeth: I do. I would say the one sort of not qualifier would put on it, the one thing you should be aware of. I would recommend keeping the bids lower in the broad and the phrase match. I don't always agree with Amazon's recommendations, but if you listen to their recommendations on this, they actually recommend that you keep it lower. Shivali Patel: And Sasha has a question. If I was to start selling a product that has a monthly volume of 60,000 units a month, how should I position myself? Should I run out? Elizabeth: I would first want to know how the product performs. That's your first goal. You want to figure out what your average cost per click is and you want to figure out what your actual conversion rate is. Once you have those factors, you can actually start building production models and sales production models and stuff. Actually, it's not hard to build or not search. You want to search traffic production models based on oh, I want to hit $50,000 a month in products, this is my conversion rate. What you need is you need your conversion rates. You really need your conversion rates is the main one, and then you're going to need your cost per clicks in the ads to be like all right, this is what it's going to cost me. Right now, you're going off of nothing. I know I've said it about 20 different times on this live, but I'm going to say it again relevancy, focus on your exact target market, see what your numbers tell you, and then you can build up from there. Shivali Patel: I think that's a good plan, so hopefully that is helpful for you. Sasha, I see we have Sweat's leaving, but he has found the response was informative. Now I wanted to touch on something we talked about at the beginning of this call, which is Q4, right, we've been talking a little bit about auditing your strategy and some general PPC knowledge, but also what about, I'm sure a lot of you guys that are watching? If you're already selling, then you probably aren't full swing. Maybe you've already gone ahead and optimized your listings for Q4. But what happens if maybe somebody is just starting to be like oh no, I completely dropped the ball? Do you have? Hopefully, not Hopefully, none of you guys are in that position, but let's say something like that happens, sort of maybe if you have a take on what somebody can do to make sure that they're still able to tap in on Q4's potential. Elizabeth: Yeah, so we're assuming it's a brand new launch product and we have nothing. Shivali Patel: We can assume that they've been selling for a while, but they haven't changed anything for Q4. Elizabeth: Got it, got it, got it. Ok, no, that's fine. So I would say if you're already selling, most likely you probably have some ad structure. You're not in a bad spot. Ok, q4, right before Black Friday, December and Monday, we're not launching a whole bunch of test campaigns. Don't do it, because what happens is Black Friday, Cyber Mondays Really, what you're doing, you don't get same. Elizabeth: I know there's not really data available, but honestly, nobody's really looking at that. An inside campaign manager. You're not going to be able to say, oh OK, I got 20. My ACOS was so much better this last hour, so let me increase these budgets, right? What you have to do is you have to look back at historical data. So if you want to test anything, do it before this week is out. Get those campaigns up, get that data, because you're going to be completely flying blind If you launched a bunch of stuff a day before. You're completely flying blind on performance metrics and it's so easy because of how many clicks are happening on the platform to really lose your shirt. So I would say, if you're like oh my gosh, I don't have any specific campaign set up for Black Friday, so that's fine, you're actually in a really good spot. So what you want to do these weeks leading up to it you actually still have time you want to go into your account and you want to evaluate what is working now, what is crushing it right now, and then I'm going to make sure, as that traffic comes in, that those have good budgets. I have healthy bids on them. Elizabeth: To be honest, days of for the most part, unless we have a really specific keyword on a very specific brand, they're like we have to be aggressive when we must win top of search for this particular keyword. For the most part, we're adjusting budgets. Day of is our typical optimizations. So what we're doing prior to that is we're like all right, if we're going to be increasing budgets, we want to make sure that all of this is super solid. So you're doing two things. One, you're identifying all the stuff that really works and you're like all right, I need to make sure again, budgets are healthy, bids are healthy, all my optimizations are done. And then the second thing we're doing and this is also very important is what is all the stuff that's not working, meaning Clips with no Sales? Where are all my high costs, low sale keywords going on? Here's a good one. What are all my untested stuff, that I've just been increasing bids. So it's so easy. Elizabeth: If you're like normal optimizations, right, we're going to go in what has no impressions, increase the bids. We do this as well. It is not a bad practice. What often happens, especially if you don't have any caps so we have caps, we're like, all right, we're never going to increase past x amount of dollars or whatever If you don't have any caps. Sometimes what happens is you're like you can end up with like $10 bids. Elizabeth: So what I would recommend doing go into your targeting tab. I would filter for everything with zero orders, or you could just leave it totally blank, sort by the bid what has the highest bid in your account and you might look at it and be like holy crap, I had no idea that was in there. And what you want to do is what we call a bid reset. So you're just looking at all this stuff and you're like, hey, it's not getting any impressions. Anyways, it's not going to hurt me if I lower my bids, but then at least I know when that traffic hits all of a sudden that random keyword that didn't have any search volume, that I had like $10 bid on. It's not going to like pop off and waste all of my ad budgets. Elizabeth: There's another filter that is really helpful to identify the irrelevant stuff. I'm not saying pause all these things. I'm saying use this filter to bring to the top everything that you're like how the heck did that get in there? Because it's super easy. When we're looking in our search term reports we're like, oh, this converted once. Let me go test it Again. Great practice. What happens is sometimes you get these random things in the account so easy for it to happen. So what you do is you go again. Targeting tab is going to be your friend here. You're going to want to filter for anything that has what is it? Zero clicks, zero, maybe once, two clicks. Elizabeth: We're looking for impressions. It has probably at least 1,000 impressions on it and you want to filter the click-through rate by anything that is lower than maybe a 0.2 or 0.15. So this says it's got a lot of impressions, it's not really doing anything in terms of sales volume and it's got really bad click-through rates. And then sort that by either your click-through rates highest or lowest to highest, or you can maybe start by impressions, highest to lowest. So what you're trying to do is what it has a bunch of eyeballs that nobody cares about and what you're doing is that brings up. Elizabeth: So a lot of people saw it. Not. A lot of people clicked on it, which oftentimes means irrelevant stuff, and because it's only got a couple clicks, there's not a lot of data, so it hasn't moved into our optimization sequences. So again, it's just a once over of the account. The first time you do this you'll probably be like what the heck, why is that there? And then, if you find that great pause, it put low bids on it, just kind of. Again, we're doing clean up. If you don't find anything that doesn't make sense for you, conkudos to. You're doing really, really good targeting. But either way, it's a really good thing to give it a once over before again traffic hits and things kind of go crazy. Shivali Patel: Now we do also have your keyword sale filter. Says 89 with low search volume, and another keyword has 20 keyword sales but a higher search volume. Is there one that you would kind of opt for? I know you said you don't typically look at the keyword sales Filter. Elizabeth: Yeah. So the two things I would look for is one I'm gonna say again, relevancy. I believe in it so strongly, I'm gonna say it again. And then the other thing that you would look at is, you know, the Helium sandwich. Again, another thing that I appreciate that you guys have added to the download keyword reports is the Recommended bits. Now, again, you guys are pulling them direct from the API, like Amazon does provide the recommended bits. However, as we all know, like if you go in you launch campaign, you like add different products, the recommended bids change, so their benchmarks don't take them as gospel, but they are really helpful to again kind of help you identify how competitive a particular keyword is over the other. So, like a budget's were concerned, you're like, well, you know, this one has like 20 sale, like the sales volume is pretty good, but like, wow, that one's Really competitive. I got to pay two dollars cost per click versus the other one where I'm like, well, I only have to pay like 50 cents cost per click. That probably would play into my decision. Shivali Patel: Okay, all right, there's. I know I said to, but let's just do this last one and then we'll. We'll call it. And so how do you structure your top keyword campaigns versus your complementary keywords? I know we briefly touched on this earlier. Elizabeth: Yeah, so I will cash with. So I saying I'm not a huge fan of doing everything as a single keyword campaign. I think it's way too overkill. You end up getting way more confused than you do in sight From doing it like that. That being said, if we do, I definitely have like a top keyword. We are going to put that in a single keyword, exact, match, specific campaign. The sort of it depends Questions and answers that I always give is the more the higher amount of Control I need over where I'm going to be directing my ad spend, the less keywords I want to have. Then more important it is for me to gain impressions on this keyword. For, again, for my campaign strategy, the less keywords I'm going to have. So if it is a top keyword, if it's my main ranking keyword, if it's super, super important to me, single keyword campaign right, because that's I need to control ad spend. I need a lot of impressions on this and super, super important versus another keyword set, right. Maybe I don't really have it. So the other, very other end of the spectrum is going to be like a whole bunch of a Campaign that actually works really well. Elizabeth: For us is single word meaning, like you know, cup bowl dish In broad match low bits. Do not put high-pits on these. Even if you have great ACoS, don't put high bits. Not a good idea. But we'll run these all the time. But what happens is because we cap our bids at, say, I think it's from 25 cents, maybe 30 cents, maybe in 15 cents. We never intend to grow our bids past that, right. Elizabeth: So how is it important for me to control ad spend at the campaign level? Not really because I'm controlling it at my bid level, right. How important is it for me to gain impressions? Not really because I'm expecting half of these keywords to not get impressions whatever. So I would be fine with putting, you know, say, 50, 100 keywords in that campaign, right, because for me it makes no sense to create 10 different campaigns that I have to like keep an eye on, versus just one important like oh yeah, that's that strategy and that's kind of like my background thing, right. So I would look at it through that lens again. How important is it for me to control spend at the campaign level? And then, how important is it for me to gain Impressions on these particular keywords? The more infatily you answer yes to those two questions, the less keywords you should have in that campaign. The more you don't really care about those two things, or they don't really matter as much then I would be okay with a lot more keywords. Shivali Patel: Alright, well, wonderful. Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for your time and your information, your knowledge. We appreciate it. I know a lot of people learned quite a bit. Sasha says thank you. We have sweat who says you know he was also waiting on those other questions that you were answering. That was very informative, so we do appreciate it so much. And yeah, that is it for today. You guys will catch you on the next TACoS Tuesday. Thank you! Elizabeth: Awesome! Thanks, I appreciate it.

“People want to be your advocate. They want to be your helper,” assures Elizabeth Rees, Founder of Chasing Paper, a company that pioneered removable wallpaper. As the third-generation in a family printing business, Elizabeth saw a need for peel-and-stick wallpaper made of traditional materials, designed with original imagery. Without a PR or marketing team, she networked relentlessly, attending every dinner and coffee meeting she could. She researched the top 50 women's magazines and personalized her communication with editors and reporters. Most importantly, Elizabeth sent an email introducing her product and explaining her vision to everyone she knew. This network quickly spread the word, which ultimately led to a writeup in a major design blog, and a huge surge in business. So much press at once can be overwhelming if a new business isn't prepared to meet the response. But as Elizabeth explains, no business is perfect right away. Receiving the same questions or complaints repeatedly from new customers presents an opportunity to address issues you've overlooked. Always to listen to your customers, and to be consistent in all of your efforts. At the end of the day, one of the best ways to launch your business is to spread the word. Meet Elizabeth and learn how she deals with supply chain issues, the value of keeping your team lean, and the myth of overnight success. Quotes • “With those two things, a thoughtful design and a high quality product, we were off to the races.” (6:35-6:43 | Elizabeth) • “Truly, sending an email is probably the most important thing you do.” (16:24-16:27 | Elizabeth) • “There's just no way that you can build a perfect business right away. Once you can get over that, you can recognize that what it's about in the beginning is how quickly you can shift, how quickly you can pivot, how quickly you can make small adjustments to be more in line with what your customer is asking you to do.” (20:26-20:45 | Elizabeth) • “You have to share your story over and over again, because when you share it, other people will start sharing it for you.” (26:33-26:40 | Lindsay) • “Business is hard 70% of the time. I think people like to think that it's the opposite, that it's easy and fun and whatever. But when you have those successes and you have those days where something is really good, really memorialize them.” (47:40-47:58 | Elizabeth) Connect with Elizabeth Rees: Instagram | http://www.instagram.com/chasingpaper Website | http://www.chasingpaper.com Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Dear FoundHer on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! You can now work with Lindsay 1:1 to build the community for your personal brand or company through the same method she used to grow and scale her business. Fill out the form here and set up a FREE 30-minute consultation. You can also: • Take Lindsay's FREE 7-Day Social Media Challenge • 5 Tips and Tools to Set Up Your Business • Follow Lindsay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindsaypinchuk Use code FoundHer for 50% off your first month with both HiveCast and Fireside Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

What you'll learn in this episode: Why getting your message across is the most important goal of writing How strong writing skills help people move up in their careers  How to remove filler words from your writing Why proofreading is necessary, even if it's not important to you personally Elizabeth's top three tips for clearer writing About Elizabeth Danziger Elizabeth Danziger, the founder of Worktalk Communications Consulting, is a seasoned written communications expert with over 30 years of experience. She has a longstanding reputation for training people to become compelling, confident writers. Danziger is the author of four books published by major publishers, including Get to the Point!, a text on business writing initially published by Random House. Her work has also appeared in many magazines, including Personnel Journal, Journal of Accountancy, and other national publications. She enables people to wield the power of words to enhance their credibility and catapult ahead in their careers. Additional resources: Facebook is www.facebook.com/upworktalk LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/elizabethdanziger Twitter: www.twitter.com/writaminlady Love it or hate it, writing is a daily part of our lives. And according to author, writing consultant and communications expert Elizabeth Danziger, people who write well are more likely to advance in their careers. That's why she founded Worktalk Communications Consulting, a firm that trains professionals to write clearly and confidently. She joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about the importance of rereading; the power of language; and her tips for stronger writing. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Elizabeth Danziger, head of Worktalk Communications. Worktalk prepares teams to write clearly and confidently so they can strengthen their credibility, increase their influence and generate new possibilities. Liz is also the author of the book “Get to the Point! Painless Advice for Writing Memos, Letters and Emails Your Colleagues and Clients Will Understand.” Worktalk also has a very interesting newsletter called “Writamins,” and it's chock full of interesting information you'll want to know. Make sure to sign up for it. We'll have a link at the end of the program. Today, Liz will be talking about how we can make the best use of language. Liz, welcome to the program.   Elizabeth: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.   Sharon: So glad to have you. Every time I read what you've written, I go, “Oh my god, it's so useful.” I have to say, I took a course from Liz years ago and the one thing I always do—Liz, I don't know if you still have my emails, but you did get me to reread my emails before I sent them.   Elizabeth: Great!   Sharon: I still do that. I always remember that, because you're right. You catch things you didn't realize were there.    Elizabeth: Oh, that's wonderful.    Sharon: Tell us about your career path. Were you always into words and grammar? Was that always of interest to you?   Elizabeth: When I was a child, I wanted to be a doctor, actually. I wanted to be a physician, but I also always loved to read. I remember my mother yelling at me, like, “Why don't you go out to play?” and I'd be like, “No, I want to read.” I've always been a great reader. Then, when I got to college and hit organic chemistry and calculus, I thought, “Well, maybe my skills are better suited elsewhere,” and I became a writer.    My first book was published when I was 25, and it did well domestically and internationally. Then I wrote two more books, including “Winning by Letting Go,” published by Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. I wrote for all the women's magazines, and then I decided I wanted to work with people who were doing real things in the real world and making life happen, and not necessarily the editors of Cosmo. I also realized there's a huge need. People suffer over their writing. They suffer personally and internally, and they suffer bad consequences from lost business, lost relationships, lost possibilities. So, I founded Worktalk to support people in making themselves understood.   Sharon: How do you do this? We took a class with you, but do you work with people individually? Is it sessions? How do you do that?   Elizabeth: I work with people however they want to be worked with. Notice that I ended a sentence with a preposition, which is totally O.K. Most of our work takes the form of webinars and training sessions. We customize every one of our webinars to our clients. We get writing samples. It's like sending a blood test to the doctor. You send me your writing sample and I see what's going on. So, it's mostly trainings and webinars.    We also do writing labs, which are much smaller. Each person brings one writing sample and we workshop each other's work in the lab. Of course, I do one-on-one coaching, but mostly it's trainings and webinars. Ultimately, we work with people in whatever way they need.   Sharon: I think there are a lot of people who have a love of reading, but how did your love of reading translate into understanding grammar? It seems like that's a different thing in a sense.   Elizabeth: Truthfully, people think of me as a person associated with grammar. I didn't really study grammar until I started teaching writing. I was a writer, and I was edited by book publishers, by Hartcourt Brace Jovanovich and Random House and by the editors of Cosmo and the editors of Glamour and the editors of all these magazines. They edited me. When I decided to start doing writing training, I think a lot of it came to me intuitively. Then, when I started teaching it, I realized I had to get the rules down. That's why I tell people grammar is extremely important, of course, but getting your message across is the most important thing.   Sharon: I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but when we work with lawyers, they go to school to learn how to write in a certain way. Is there resistance, or is it more difficult to untrain them to write for the normal person?   Elizabeth: It is a little more difficult. With respect, lawyers really think they know a lot about a lot, and they're trained to argue; they're trained to think you're wrong. So, there is a little more resistance, but at the same time, I've worked with law firms. I've worked with associates who are getting dinged for the writing. Their writing's not clear; their writing's not to the point; their writing doesn't catch the issue. When I work with associates, they end up getting that taken off their performance review and they turn into good writers. I've also worked with legal firms on other things, but I love working with lawyers because they're smart. Not that people who aren't smart shouldn't call me—not that anyone would identify themselves at not smart. It's fun to work with people who learn quickly. It's fun.    Sharon: That's interesting, because it seems like if you're working with associates, there are people higher up, perhaps partners, who aren't—and once again, as you say, with respect—aren't as good a writer or as to-the-point, and they're evaluating somebody else.   Elizabeth: I'm not sure about that. My experience in all fields, in accounting, business, finance and law, is that the people at the top, they're almost always good writers, I would say. Good writing and good thinking go hand in hand, and you cannot rise to the top if you're not a really good thinker, hopefully. People who write well tend to get promoted in professional service firms. Very often, the managing partner is an exceptional writer, but the managing partner, believe it or not, has other things to do than to edit the crappy writing of the people who work for them. They need to be managing the firm. That's why they outsource to me if their associates are not up to snuff, but the top people are often good writers.   Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. They have to be persuasive, and they have to get their clients' attention, which means being to the point.   Elizabeth: Right.   Sharon: How is what you do changing today? When people are texting and abbreviating every other word—Liz is rolling her eyes here. I find myself doing that, or I'll make a mistake and think, “Well, nobody's going to notice that or know that's a mistake,” and then I say, “Sharon, you can't do that. It's not right.” How do you deal with that?   Elizabeth: That's an excellent question, and I can look at it in a couple of ways. One is that I am fighting the good fight. Like Winston Churchill said, “Fight the good fight.” Although there is a lot of texting, Slack, Whatsapp, whatever, the thing is that—and this is getting a little philosophical—if we think about it, what is the function of language? I'm sure we all love dolphins and pot-bellied pigs and whales, but they're not building legal systems; they're not building cultures; they're not doing what humans are doing. We are doing it because we have language, really sophisticated, nuanced language that can create a future and a past. It's powerful.    Language conveys meaning, but why bother to get something from my head into your head? How do we get this from my head into your head? Because we have a set of agreements. We agree. The sounds I'm making mean something. The scribbles on the page mean something, and you can make a certain number of errors in those agreements. Grammar is just a set of things we agree on. When I say, “I was,” it means it happened already. We agree on that. But if you break too many of those agreements of grammar, it creates friction in the system, and your meaning starts to fall apart. You literally lose meaning, and that's why I know the work I do is evergreen. In every class, I ask people, “Have you ever gotten an email from someone that had so many grammar and punctuation errors that you literally didn't know what the person was talking about?” and everybody says, “Yes.” It's true that people are more casual about it, and the winners, the people who end up on top, are going to be the people who communicate with a nuance and a correctness and a sophistication.   Sharon: Do you find yourself texting and abbreviating things?   Elizabeth: No, I never do. I dictate my texts, and I usually proofread them. I just don't do that. Maybe it's because I'm a boomer. I also tell people not to do it, so I don't do it.   Sharon: It's interesting to me how the world has changed. I do have to throw this out: I'm flabbergasted that they're not teaching cursive writing in some areas.   Elizabeth: I know. What's sad is that there's a lot of research on the whole process of writing by hand, the neurology and neuroscience, and there is an additional layer of writing in cursive. When you take notes by hand or when you write in cursive, different things are happening inside your brain that are enabling you to process that information at a deeper level. On a simple level, I wonder how those people are going to sign their names when they grow up. If you've never learned cursive, what is your signature going to look like? I don't know. But you're right. Of course, I have to deal with people texting and Slacking and this and that, but in the end, the bottom line of language is the same: get your message across. That's what we aim for.   Sharon: When you're teaching a class of law firm associates or younger people, let's say, do you hear more, “Oh, Liz, that's not important”?   Elizabeth: I do. What's interesting is in my section on proofreading, I always ask people, “When you receive a document that's not carefully proofread, how does it affect your opinion of the person who sent it? Positively, negatively or no impact?” I talk to people all over the country, and in most cases, the majority of people say it has a negative impact on their opinion of the person who sent it. Yet there are certain cultures and certain groups and subgroups where a lot of people will say it makes no impact on them. They don't care if somebody doesn't proofread. What I tell those people is, “O.K., so the person on your team, that person may not care at all if you proofread. Knock yourself out. But I promise you, if you write to a CEO or the government or the executive vice president or the division manager, that person will care.” Many people still do care, and we have to take care of that. We have to write for the top, not to the least common denominator.   Sharon: That's a good way to put it. I think certain professions care more. We were the recipient of this, because a firm that became our client, they switched firms because they said their other firm wasn't proofreading.   Elizabeth: Oh my gosh! I saw this in a client, a regional accounting firm that had been approached by the client of another regional accounting firm. The other firm was a very reputable firm, a good firm, and I asked my client, “Did you ask them why they are talking to you? This is like somebody who already has a girlfriend going on a date. Why are they talking to you if they already have an accounting firm?” He asked them, and what they told him was that their firm consistently misspelled their name.   Sharon: That would be a zinger, let's say.   Elizabeth: Yeah.   Sharon: Tell us some of your top secrets or your words of advice for us to keep in mind.   Elizabeth: There are three things I would suggest. The first is that you think about your reader before you write. It sounds very simple, but it astounds me sometimes how rarely people do that. They sit down and think, “Tap, tap, tap,” and they're not visualizing the living, breathing human being who's on the receiving end of that. What do they care about? What are their hot buttons? What are they wondering? What are their questions? Write for the reader. That's the first thing.    Second, write shorter sentences. Your average sentence range should be around 20 words. That doesn't mean every one should be boom, boom, boom, 20, 20, 20. Maybe some 15, maybe some 25, maybe some 30, but if you have a 30 or 35-word sentence, I want you to put two 10-word sentences around it. Microsoft Word's check readability statistics function will calculate your average sentence. That's the second thing, to write shorter sentences, and a whole cascade of good things will happen.   The third, as you remember from when we talked years ago, Sharon, is to always, always reread. You've got to reread what you wrote and make sure you didn't write something incredibly dumb, especially for attorneys. Attorneys are held to a higher standard. The scary thing about not proofreading is that people generalize. They think if you're careless at this, you're careless at that. If there's a typo in the cover letter you send to your client, “Here's the contract you asked me to draw up,” and you write “contact” instead of “contract,” and it goes straight through spell check because contact is also a word, I promise you they are going to have less confidence in the validity of the contract because there was a typo in the cover letter. That's just how we roll. It's crucial to reread and proofread everything no matter how hurried you are. The time it takes to backtrack and grovel and apologize and try and make it right is so time-consuming that it makes the time that we spend proofreading seem very, very short.   Sharon: That's a good point, what you say about lawyers being held to a higher standard. If I got a cover letter or a document from a lawyer where there was a typo, I would think, “Oh, my god, what kind of work am I going to get from this person, exactly?”    Elizabeth: It's terrifying   Sharon: Yes, it is.   Elizabeth: It's truly terrifying.   Sharon: That's true. If I got a typo in a cover letter, it would reflect poorly on the person, but if it came from the guy who's going to paint my house, I don't think I'd be thinking in the same way.   Elizabeth: Exactly, that's a great point. We have different expectations from different people. People have the highest expectations of lawyers because they associate them with precision and language, and because they rely on them to use language to plead their case.    Sharon: That's true. Rely—that word really hit me. They're advocates.   Elizabeth: Exactly, good point.   Sharon: I want to ask you two things. Are you going to be writing another follow-up to the second edition of your book “Get to the Point”?   Elizabeth: I've already done a second edition. I thought about doing a third edition, but I'm very busy with work right now, and it's a huge time commitment. I think I keep people posted by keeping up the Writamins. If you subscribe to Writamins, you'll get all the latest.   Sharon: Yes, and we'll have the link in the podcast description when we post it. One of the latest versions was talking about filler words. As I was writing something the other day, I thought, “Wait, that's a filler word,” and I took it out.   Elizabeth: Great! It really affects you. I'm so gratified.    Sharon: I never thought about it, but it's something I use all the time. Give us examples on how we get rid of them.   Elizabeth: A lot of it is just thought and self-discipline. I wish I could say, “Give me $29.95 and I'll slice and dice and microwave and cut and reduce filler words.” That would be really nice. I would be a millionaire, a multimillionaire, if I could do that. A lot of it goes back to rereading. We also need to be aware of words like “just.” I'm sorry to say this happens more often with women than with men. Men and women both do it, but women are particularly prey to “just” or “sorry.” I would like to bury these words. In other words, if I say to you, “I'm very, very sorry,” do I sound sorrier than if I said, “I'm sorry?”   Sharon: That's a good point, yeah.   Elizabeth: To my ears, the person who says, “I'm very, very sorry,” I would not necessarily say that person is twice as sorry as the person who says, “I'm sorry.” I wrote a Writamin about this. You probably remember. I was about “I would like to,” and “I wanted to.” Oh my gosh! Please read the Writamin, everyone. It's on the website. It's at Worktalk.com.   Sharon: Great information. It's so much to remember. Liz, thank you very much. Whether it's a certain rule or whether it's knowing that we need to get to the point faster, that's the most important thing you're talking about. Thank you so much for talking with us today. It's really been great. I don't know how many filler words I'm using there.   Elizabeth: No, you're doing great.   Sharon: Really, really great.   Elizabeth: Really, really, really, really, so, so, so great.   Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us.   Elizabeth: You're very, very welcome. Thank you for letting me be on this show. I appreciate it.   Sharon: It's great to talk with you.  

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Welcome to ClickAI Radio. In this episode I have a conversation with some AI experts on how AI ethics affect your business. Grant Okay, welcome, everybody to another episode of clique AI radio. Well in the house today I have got a return visitor very excited to have him and a brand new person. I'm excited to introduce you to Carlos Anchia. I've been practicing that I get that right, Carlos. Carlos Sounds great. Good to see you again. Grant Even old dogs can learn new tricks. There we go. All right, and Elizabeth Spears. Now I got that one easily. Right, Elizabeth? Elizabeth You did it? Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Grant This is exciting for me to have them here with me today. They are co founders of plain sight AI. And a few episodes ago, I had an opportunity to speak with Carlos and he laid the foundation around the origin story of AI for vision, some of the techniques and the problems they're solving. And I started to nerd out on all of the benefits. In fact, you know what, Carlos, I need to tell you, since our last conversation, I actually circled back to your team and had a demo of what you guys are doing. And yeah, I think it was very impressive, very impressive, you know, a guy like me, where I've coded this stuff. And I was like, Oh, wow, you just took a lot of a lot of pain out of the process. You know, one of the pains that I saw come out of the process was the reduction in time, right that how long it would take for me to cycle another model through it. That was incredible, right? I can't remember the actual quantification of time, but it was at least a 50% of not even 80% reduction of cycle time is what I saw come through, there's even model versioning sort of techniques, there's just, you know, there's another really cool technique in there that I saw. And it had to do with this ability to augment or, or approximate test data, right, this ability to say, but but without creating more test data, it could approximate and create that for you. So now, your whole testing side just got a lot easier without building up, you know, those massive test cases and test basis for for doing the stuff So, alright, very impressive product set. And let's see, Elizabeth can you explain that? Elizabeth That's right, Chief Product Officer. So basically, kind of the strategy around what we're building and how we build it. And the order in which we build it is is kind of under my purview. Grant Okay, very good. Awesome. Well, it's so great to have both of you here today. So after I spoke with Carlos, last time, after we finished the recording, I said, You know what, I want to talk to you about ethics about AI ethics. And so as you heard in my previous podcast, I sort of laid the foundation for this conversation. And it's not the only areas of ethics around AI, but it's a place to start. And so we want to build on this. And we're gonna talk about these sort of four or five different areas just to begin the conversation. And I think this could translate certainly into other conversations as well. But to do that, could could one or both of you spend a little time giving the foundation of what is AI ethics as a relates to computer vision itself? What are some of the challenges or problems or misunderstandings that you see in this specific area of AI? Carlos Sure, I can take that one. So I think really, when we're talking around ethics, we're bowling any sort of technology, we're talking around how that technology is implemented, and the use of that, right and what's acceptable. So in the case of this technology, we're talking around computer vision and artificial intelligence, and how those things go into society. And it's really through its intended use on how we evaluate the technology. And I think really, computer vision continues to provide value to allow us to get through this digital transformation piece. As a technology, right? And, you know, once we start with, yes, this is a valuable technology, the conversation really now shifts to how do we use that technology for good, some cases bad, right? Where this is where that conversation arises around, you know, having the space to share what we believe is good or bad, or the right uses or the wrong usage just right. And it's a very, very gray area, when we look to address technology and advancement in technology against a black and white good or bad kind of a situation, we get into a lot of issues where, you know, there's a lot of controversy around some of these things, right, which is really, you know, as we started discussing it after the last podcast, it was really, you know, man, I really need to have a good podcast around this, because there's a lot to it. And you clearly said there was a previous one. And now there's this one, you know, I hope that there's a series of these so we can continue to express value and just have a free conversation around ethics in artificial intelligence. But really, what I'm trying to do is set the context, right. So like technology works great from the just the science of the application of that technology. And if you think of something like super controversial facial recognition, now, absolutely. I don't want people to look at my face when I'm standing on a corner. But if there's, you know, child abduction cases, yes, please use all the facial recognition you can I want that to succeed really well. And we've learned that technology works. So it's not the solution itself. It's how we're applying that solution. Right. And there's there's a lot of new ones to that. And, you know, Elizabeth can help shed a little bit of light here, because this is something that we evaluate on a constant basis and have really free discussions around. Grant Yeah, I would imagine you have to even as you take your platform into your into your customer base, even understanding what their use cases are imagined, at times, you might have to give a little guidance on the best way to apply our uses. What have you seen with this, Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, there's, it's interesting what Carlos is saying there's a lot of the same themes for evaluating the ethics and technology in general are similar ones that come up with when AI is applied. So things like fraud or bias is actually more can be more uniquely AI. But that absolutely exists in other technologies. And then inaccuracy and how that how that comes up in AI, and then things like consent and privacy. So a lot of the themes and we can we can talk about how AI applies to these, but a lot of the themes that come up, are really similar. And so one of the things that we try to do for our customers is, especially kind of your listener base, that's that small, medium businesses is take a lot of that complexity out of the, like, Hey, I just want to apply, you know, I just want to solve this one problem with AI, what are all of these concerns that I, you know, I may or may not know about. So, we try to do things like build, build things into the platform that make it so something like bias. So, for example, is usually comes down to data balance. So if we provide tools that really clearly show your data balance, then it helps people make unbiased models, right, and be confident that they're going to be using AI ethically, Grant So that I'm sure you're aware of this Harrisburg University in Pennsylvania case where they ended up using AI to predict criminality using image processing, right. And, of course, that it failed, right? Because it you know, looking at a an image of someone and saying, Oh, that person is a criminal, or that person's not a criminal. That's using some powerful technology, but in ways that, of course, has some strong problems or challenges around that. How do you help prevent something like this? Or how do you guide people to use this, this kind of tool or technology and in ways that are beneficial? Elizabeth Yeah. What's interesting about this one is that the same technology that causes the problem can also help solve the problem. So so when you're looking at your corpus of data, you can use AI to find places where you have data in balance and and just to kind of re explain the what happened in that case, right. So they had a data imbalance where it was Miss identifying Different races that they had less data for. So, you know, a less controversial example is if we're talking about fruit, right, so if we have a dataset that has 20, oranges, two bananas and 20, apples, then it's just going to be worse than identifying bananas, right? So one of the things that that can be done is you apply AI to automatically look at your data balance and say, and surface those issues where it can say, hey, you have less of this thing, you probably want to label more of that thing. Grant So I'll try to manage the data set better in terms of proper representation. And try finding, finding bias is a real challenge for organizations. And I think one of the things that your platform would allow or unable to do is if you can take off the pain of all of the machinery of just getting through this and and free up organizations time to be more strict in terms of evaluating and finally, oh, taking the time to do those kinds of things, I think you might have an opportunity to improve in that area meeting customers might be able to improve in there, would that be a fair takeaway? Elizabeth Yeah, it's something that that we're really passionate about trying to provide tools around. And, and we're kind of prioritizing these these tools. The other one is, is that has to do with your data is as well is finding inaccuracies in, in your models. So the one example is X ray machines. So they did. They've basically they had an inaccuracy in a model that was finding a correlation, I think it was for it was for the disease detection. So it was finding a correlation just when the X ray was mobile, versus when they went into kind of a hospital to get the X ray. And so, you know, these models are in many cases, really just very strong pattern detectors, right. And so one of the things that can really help to, you know, to prevent something like that is to make it easy to slice and dice your data in as many ways as possible, and then run models that way. And make sure that you aren't finding the same correlation, or the same sort of accuracy with a different data set, or a different running of the model in a different data set. So said, in other words, you would be able to say, I'm going to run all of the portable X-ray machines versus all of the hospital ones, and see if I'm getting the same correlation as I am with, you know, cancer versus not cancer, or whatever they were looking for. Grant A quick question for you on this. So in my experience with AI, I have found sort of two things to consider. One is the questions that I'm trying to get answered guides me in terms of, you know, how I prepare the model, right? I'm gonna first lean towards certain things, obviously, if I want to know that this is a banana, right, or an apple or what have you. So the kind of question that when I answer leads me to how I prepare the model, which means it leads me to the data that I select. And the question is, is do I do I? Should I spend the time really putting together the strong set of questions? And rather, rather than do that, just gather my data? And then and then execute that data, the build a model? And then Ben, try to answer some questions out of that, you see what I'm saying that way, maybe I'm not going to introduce any bias into it. Elizabeth So we we encourage a very clear sort of understanding of the questions that you want to answer, right? Because that helps you do a few things, it helps you craft a model that's really going to answer that question, as opposed to accidentally answering some other questions, right. But it also helps you right size the technology so far, for example, if you're doing if you're trying to answer the question of how many people are entering this building, because you want to understand, you know, limits of how many people can be in the building or, you know, COVID restrictions or whatever it is, that that solution doesn't need to have facial recognition, right. So to answer that question, you don't need you know, lots of other technologies included in there. And so yeah, So, so defining those questions ahead of time can really help in sort of a more ethical use of the technology. Grant So one of the first jobs we would then have a small medium business do would be get clarity around those questions that actually can help us take some of the bias out. Is that a fair takeaway from what you share? Elizabeth Exactly like the questions you're trying to answer. And the questions you aren't not trying to answer can also be helpful. Grant Oh, very good. Okay. All right. So all right, the opposite of that as well. All right. So while we could keep talking about bias, let's switch to something that is that I think comes right out of the movie iRobot, right. It's robot rights. Is this, is this a fluke? Or what, you know, is this for real? I mean, what do you think? Is there really an ethical thing to worry about here? Or what? What are your thoughts? Elizabeth You know, in most of the cases that I've seen, it's really more like, it comes down to just property, like treating property correctly, you know, like don't kick the robots because it's private property. So not really around sort of the robot rights but you know, some already established rules be in for the most part, I see this as kind of a Hollywood problem, more than a practical problem. Grant Maybe it makes good Will Smith movies. But other than that, yeah, fighting for rights, right. Now that seems like it's way out there in terms of terms of connection reality. Okay, so we can tell our listeners, don't worry about that for right now. Did you add something back there? Carlos Just an interesting point on the robot rights, right. While while it's far in the future, I think for robot rights, we are seeing a little bit of that now today. Right? When like Tesla AI day, when they came out, they decided that the robot shouldn't run too fast that the robot shouldn't be too strong. I think it's a bit. It's a bit interesting that, you know, we're also protecting the human race from for us building, you know, AI for bad and robots for bad in this case. So I think it's, it's, it's on both sides of that coin. And those are, those are product decisions that were made around. Let's make sure we can run that thing later. So I think I think as we continue to explore robots AI, the the use of that together, this topic will be very important, but I think it's far far away. Grant I'm wondering is that also blends into the next sort of ethical subtopic we talked about, which is threat to human dignity. And it might even crossed into that a little bit, right, which is, are we developing AI in a way that's going to help? protect the dignity of human certainly in health care situations? That certainly becomes important, right? You probably heard on the previous podcasts that I did, I played a little snippet from Google's duplex technology that was three year old technology, and those people had no idea. They're talking and interacting with AI. And so there's that aspect of this. So where's the line on this? When? When is it that someone needs to know that what you're interacting with is actually not human? And then does this actually mean there's a deeper problem that we're trying to solve in the industry, which is one of identity, we've got to actually create a way to know what it is that we're interacting with. And we have strong identity? Can you speak to that? Yeah, Elizabeth I think I think the there's two things that kind of come into play here. And the first is transparency, and the second is consent. So in this case, it really comes down to transparency, like it would be very simple in that example, for that bot to say, Hey, I'm a bot on behalf of, you know, Grant Larsen, and I'm trying to schedule a hair appointment, right, and then going from there. And that makes it a much more transparent and easy interaction. So I think in a lot of cases, really paying attention to transparency and consent can go a long way. Grant Yeah, absolutely. All right, that that that makes a lot of sense. It seems like we can get around some of these pieces fairly, fairly simply. All right, Carlos, any other thoughts on that one? Carlos The only thing there and then touches on the stuff you guys were talking about on the bias piece, right? We're really talking about visibility and introspection into the process. Right. And with bias, you have that in place, right? We can detect when you know there's a misrepresentation of classes within the the model. In some cases, there's human bias that you can get that right but it's it's having that visibility in the same case with the threat to human data. With that visibility comes the introspection where you can make those decisions. You see more about the problem. Grant Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So if we were to to be able to determine we have a bad actor, if there's not transparency, that would be a way that we could help protect the dignity of humans through this. Alright. That's reasonable. All right. So let's move on to again, sounds Hollywood ish, but I'm not sure it is weaponization of AI. Right? What are the ethics around this? I'll just throw that one on the table. Where do you what do you want to take that? Carlos, you wanna start with that one? Carlos Sure. I mean, so weaponization and and I think when we talk about AI and, and the advancements of it, you quickly go to weaponization. But really, weaponization has two different pieces to it, right? It's obviously it depends on which side of that fence you're on, on whether you view that technology is beneficial or detrimental. But in some cases, that AI that same technology that is helping a pilot navigate, it also helps for a guided missile system or something like that. So we really have to balance and it goes back to use cases, and how we apply that technology as a people. But you know, weaponization, the rise against the machines, these kind of questions. While they're kind of out there. They're affecting society today. And we have to be able to have productive conversation around what we believe is good and bad around this while still allowing technology to succeed. So there's a lot of advancements in the weaponization and AI in that space, but it's really, I think we have to take it on a case by case basis, and not like a blanket statement, we can't use technology in these ways. Grant Interesting thoughts? What are your thoughts there? Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, I it makes me think of sort of turning it on its head is, is when is it? You know, when is it unethical not to use AI, right. And so, some of those questions come up when we are talking about weaponization, you can also be talking about saving human lives and making it safer for them to do some of these operations. And and that same question can come up in some of like, the medical use cases, right? So here in the US, we have a lot of challenges around being able to use AI in medical use cases, and there's, and there's some where you can have really good human oversight of the cases, you can have sort of reproducibility of those models, they can be as explainable as possible. But it's still really, really difficult to get FDA approval there. So I, again, I think there's two sides to that coin. Grant And, yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation have stuff wrong, because like, in that medical case, you talked about, you could see the value of using the same kind of technology that would be used to identify a human target, and then attack it, you could take that same capability, and instead use it in a search and rescue sort of scenario, right? Where you're flying something overhead, and you're trying to find, you know, pictures or images of people that might be lost out there. Same kind of thing, right, so, so where how, go ahead, you're gonna say something was, but I can see. Elizabeth And there's even simpler cases in medical, where it's like, you know, there's a shortage of radiologists right now in the US and, and you can use, you can use AI to be able to triage some of that imaging. So, because right now, people are having to, in some cases, wait a really long time to get their sort of imaging reviewed. And so can can, can, and should AI help there. There's also another one along those same lines, where, with things like CT scans, you can use what's called super resolution or de noising the image. And basically, you can use much less radiation in the first place to take the imaging and then use AI on top of it to be able to essentially enhance the image. So again, you know, ultimately exposing the patient to less less radiation. So yeah, there's it's pretty interesting when when we can and can't use it. Mm hmm. Carlos Yeah. And I think just to add a little bit to the one we can and can't right, so, advancements through drug discovery have largely been driven through AI in the same fashion weaponization of various all drugs or other types of drugs have also benefited from Ai. So, I mean, from a society's perspective, you know, you really have to Evaluate not only greater good, but that that ultimate use case like, where where do you want to make a stance around that technology piece. And understanding both sides really provides that discussion space that's needed, you have to be able to ask really honest questions to problems that are, you know, what you can see in the future. Grant So is the safeguard through all of this topic around ethics? Is the safeguard, basically, the moral compass that's found in the humans themselves? Or do we need to have less, you know, legislative or policy bodies? Right, that puts us together? Or is it a blending? What do you what's your take? Elizabeth Um, it's interesting, the UK just came out with a national AI strategy. And they are basically trying to build an entire AI assurance industry. And, and their approach is, so they want to make sure that they're make, they're keeping it so that you can be innovative in the space, right? They don't want to make it so regulatory, that you can't innovate. But they also want to make sure that there's consumer trust in in AI. So they're putting together from a, you know, a national perspective, a guidelines and tests and, and ways to give consumers confidence in whether a model is you know, reproducible, accurate, etc, etc, while at the same time not stifling innovation, because they know, you know, how important that AI is for a essentially a country's way to compete and and the opportunities for GDP that it provides as well. Grant Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I can go ahead, Carlos. Carlos No, I think it's his it's your question. Left alone, should we got kind of govern ourselves? I think, I think we've proven that we can't do that as a people, right. So we need to have some sort of regulatory, and committee around the review of these things. But it has to be in the light of, you know, wanting to provide a better experience higher quality, deliver value, right. And I think I think when you start with, how do we get the technology adopted and in place and deployed in a fashion where society can benefit, you start making your decisions around, you know, what the good pieces are, and you'll start your start really starting to see the outliers around Hey, wait a second, that doesn't kind of conform to the guidelines that we wanted to get this implemented with? Elizabeth And I think also to your question, I think it's happening at all a lot of levels. Right. So there's, you know, state regulation around privacy and use of AI and facial recognition. And, and there's, you know, some the FDA is putting together some regulation, and then also individual companies, right, so people like Microsoft, etc, have have big groups around, you know, ethics and how AI should be used for, you know, them as a company. So I think it's happening at all levels. Grant Yeah, like we said, that is a people we need to have some level of governing bodies around this to, and of course, that's never the end all protection, for sure. But it is, it is a step in the right direction to to help monitoring and governance. Okay, so last question, right? This is gonna sound a little bit tangential, if I could use that word tangential. It's given the state of AI where it is today. Is it artificial intelligence? Or is it augmented intelligence? Carlos I can go with that. So I think it's a little bit of both. So I think the result is, is to augment our intelligence, right? We're really trying to make better decisions. Some of those are automated, some of those are not we're really trying to inform a higher quality decision. And yes, it's being applied in an artificial intelligence manner, because that's the technology that we're applying, but it's really to augment our lives. Right. And, and we're using it in a variety of use cases. We've talked about a lot of them here. But there's 1000s of use cases in AI that we don't even see today that are very easy. Something as simple as searching on the internet. That's helping a lot from you know, misspelling things and, you know, not not identifying exactly what you want and recommendation engines come and say, you know, I think I'm looking for this instead. It's like, Absolutely, thanks for saving me the frustration. We're really augmenting Life in that point. Grant The reason why I asked that as part of this ethics piece is one of the things I noticed. And as I work with the organizations, there's a misunderstanding of how far and what AI can do at times. And and there's this misunderstanding of therefore, what's my responsibility in this. And my argument is, it's augmented intelligence in terms of its outcome, and therefore, we can't absolve the outcomes and pass that off to AI and say, Oh, well, it told me to do this, just in the same breath, we can't absolve and say, We're not responsible for the use cases either. And the way in which we use it, so we own as a human human race, we own the responsibility to pick an apply the right use cases, to even be able to challenge the AI, insights and outcomes from that, and then to take the ownership of that in what the impacts are. Agree, disagree. Carlos Yeah, I would really agree with that. And if you if you think about how it's implemented, in many cases, right now, the best use of AI is with human oversight, right. So it's sort of, you know, AI is maybe making initial decision, and then the human is reviewing that, or, you know, making a judgment call based on that input. So it's, it's sort of helping human decisioning instead of replacing human decisioning. And I think that's a pretty important kind of guiding principle where, where, wherever that may be necessary, we should do it. There's one, you know, the Zillow case that that happened recently, where they were using machine learning to automatically buy houses, and it was not. There was not enough human oversight in that, and I think they ended up losing something like $500 million in the case, right. So it's not really an ethics thing, but but it's just an example where in a lot of these cases, the best scenario is to have aI paired with human oversight. Yeah, yeah. Great, I think. Grant Yeah, no, go right ahead. Yeah. Elizabeth You mentioned you mentioned being able to challenge the AI, right, and that that piece is really important, in most of the cases, especially in the one that he just mentioned, around that. That Zillow case, right, without the challenging piece, you don't have a path to improvement, you just kind of assume the role, and you get into deep trouble, like you saw there. But that challenging piece is really where innovation starts, you need to be able to get back and question kind of, you know, is this exactly what I want? And if it's not, how do I change it? Right. And that's how we drive kind of innovation in the space? Grant Well, and I would say that that comes full circle to the platform, I saw that your organization's developing, which is to reduce the time and effort it takes to be able to cycle on that right to build the model, get the outcome, evaluate, oh, challenge, make adjustments, but don't make the effort to recast and rebuild that model such that it becomes unaffordable or too much time, I need to be able to iterate on that quickly. And I think as a platform you developed and others that I've seen, you know, continue to reduce that I think it makes it easier for us to do that in it from a from a financially responsible and beneficial perspective. 100% Elizabeth Yeah, one of the one of the features that you mentioned was the versioning. And that really ties into a guiding principle of ethical use as well, which is reproducibility. So if you are, if you want to use a model, you need to be able to reduce, reproduce it reliably. And so you're getting the same kind of outputs. And so that's one of the features that we've put in there to help people that versioning feature to help people, you know, comply with that type of a regulation. Grant I've built enough AI models to know it's tough to go back to a particular version of an AI model and have reproducibility accountability. I mean, there's a whole bunch of LEDs on that. That's exceedingly valuable. That's right. Yeah. Okay, any any final comments for me there? Yeah. Carlos I think for my side, I'm really interested to see where we go as people with ethics in AI. I think we've touched on the transparency and visibility required to have these conversations around ethics and our ethical use of AI. But really, in this case, we're gonna start seeing more and more use cases and solutions in their lives or we're gonna butt up against these ethical questions, and being able to have an open forum where we can discuss this. That's really up to us. To provide we have to provide the space to have these conversations, and in some cases, arguments around the use of the technology. And I'm really looking forward to, you know, what comes out of that, you know, how long does it take for us to get to that space where, you know, we're advancing in technology and addressing issues while we advanced the technology. Grant Excellent. Thanks, Carlos. Elizabeth. Elizabeth Yeah, so for me as a as a product person in particular, I'm really interested in these the the societal conversation that we're having, and the regulations that are starting to be put together and kind of the guidelines from larger companies and companies like ours that are, you know, contributing to this thought leadership. And so what's really interesting for me is being able to take those, that larger conversation and that larger knowledge base and distill it down into simple tools for people like small and medium businesses that can then feel confident using AI and these things are just built in sort of protecting them from making some mistakes. So I'm really interested to see sort of how that evolves and how we can productize it to make it simple for people. Grant Yeah, yeah. Bingo. Exactly. Okay, everyone. I'd like to thank Carlos Elizabeth, for joining me here today. Wonderful conversation that I enjoyed that a lot. Thanks, everyone for listening. And until next time, get some AI with your ethics. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

Welcome to ClickAI Radio. In this episode I have a conversation with some AI experts on how AI ethics affect your business. Grant Okay, welcome, everybody to another episode of clique AI radio. Well in the house today I have got a return visitor very excited to have him and a brand new person. I'm excited to introduce you to Carlos Anchia. I've been practicing that I get that right, Carlos. Carlos Sounds great. Good to see you again. Grant Even old dogs can learn new tricks. There we go. All right, and Elizabeth Spears. Now I got that one easily. Right, Elizabeth? Elizabeth You did it? Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Grant This is exciting for me to have them here with me today. They are co founders of plain sight AI. And a few episodes ago, I had an opportunity to speak with Carlos and he laid the foundation around the origin story of AI for vision, some of the techniques and the problems they're solving. And I started to nerd out on all of the benefits. In fact, you know what, Carlos, I need to tell you, since our last conversation, I actually circled back to your team and had a demo of what you guys are doing. And yeah, I think it was very impressive, very impressive, you know, a guy like me, where I've coded this stuff. And I was like, Oh, wow, you just took a lot of a lot of pain out of the process. You know, one of the pains that I saw come out of the process was the reduction in time, right that how long it would take for me to cycle another model through it. That was incredible, right? I can't remember the actual quantification of time, but it was at least a 50% of not even 80% reduction of cycle time is what I saw come through, there's even model versioning sort of techniques, there's just, you know, there's another really cool technique in there that I saw. And it had to do with this ability to augment or, or approximate test data, right, this ability to say, but but without creating more test data, it could approximate and create that for you. So now, your whole testing side just got a lot easier without building up, you know, those massive test cases and test basis for for doing the stuff So, alright, very impressive product set. And let's see, Elizabeth can you explain that? Elizabeth That's right, Chief Product Officer. So basically, kind of the strategy around what we're building and how we build it. And the order in which we build it is is kind of under my purview. Grant Okay, very good. Awesome. Well, it's so great to have both of you here today. So after I spoke with Carlos, last time, after we finished the recording, I said, You know what, I want to talk to you about ethics about AI ethics. And so as you heard in my previous podcast, I sort of laid the foundation for this conversation. And it's not the only areas of ethics around AI, but it's a place to start. And so we want to build on this. And we're gonna talk about these sort of four or five different areas just to begin the conversation. And I think this could translate certainly into other conversations as well. But to do that, could could one or both of you spend a little time giving the foundation of what is AI ethics as a relates to computer vision itself? What are some of the challenges or problems or misunderstandings that you see in this specific area of AI? Carlos Sure, I can take that one. So I think really, when we're talking around ethics, we're bowling any sort of technology, we're talking around how that technology is implemented, and the use of that, right and what's acceptable. So in the case of this technology, we're talking around computer vision and artificial intelligence, and how those things go into society. And it's really through its intended use on how we evaluate the technology. And I think really, computer vision continues to provide value to allow us to get through this digital transformation piece. As a technology, right? And, you know, once we start with, yes, this is a valuable technology, the conversation really now shifts to how do we use that technology for good, some cases bad, right? Where this is where that conversation arises around, you know, having the space to share what we believe is good or bad, or the right uses or the wrong usage just right. And it's a very, very gray area, when we look to address technology and advancement in technology against a black and white good or bad kind of a situation, we get into a lot of issues where, you know, there's a lot of controversy around some of these things, right, which is really, you know, as we started discussing it after the last podcast, it was really, you know, man, I really need to have a good podcast around this, because there's a lot to it. And you clearly said there was a previous one. And now there's this one, you know, I hope that there's a series of these so we can continue to express value and just have a free conversation around ethics in artificial intelligence. But really, what I'm trying to do is set the context, right. So like technology works great from the just the science of the application of that technology. And if you think of something like super controversial facial recognition, now, absolutely. I don't want people to look at my face when I'm standing on a corner. But if there's, you know, child abduction cases, yes, please use all the facial recognition you can I want that to succeed really well. And we've learned that technology works. So it's not the solution itself. It's how we're applying that solution. Right. And there's there's a lot of new ones to that. And, you know, Elizabeth can help shed a little bit of light here, because this is something that we evaluate on a constant basis and have really free discussions around. Grant Yeah, I would imagine you have to even as you take your platform into your into your customer base, even understanding what their use cases are imagined, at times, you might have to give a little guidance on the best way to apply our uses. What have you seen with this, Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, there's, it's interesting what Carlos is saying there's a lot of the same themes for evaluating the ethics and technology in general are similar ones that come up with when AI is applied. So things like fraud or bias is actually more can be more uniquely AI. But that absolutely exists in other technologies. And then inaccuracy and how that how that comes up in AI, and then things like consent and privacy. So a lot of the themes and we can we can talk about how AI applies to these, but a lot of the themes that come up, are really similar. And so one of the things that we try to do for our customers is, especially kind of your listener base, that's that small, medium businesses is take a lot of that complexity out of the, like, Hey, I just want to apply, you know, I just want to solve this one problem with AI, what are all of these concerns that I, you know, I may or may not know about. So, we try to do things like build, build things into the platform that make it so something like bias. So, for example, is usually comes down to data balance. So if we provide tools that really clearly show your data balance, then it helps people make unbiased models, right, and be confident that they're going to be using AI ethically, Grant So that I'm sure you're aware of this Harrisburg University in Pennsylvania case where they ended up using AI to predict criminality using image processing, right. And, of course, that it failed, right? Because it you know, looking at a an image of someone and saying, Oh, that person is a criminal, or that person's not a criminal. That's using some powerful technology, but in ways that, of course, has some strong problems or challenges around that. How do you help prevent something like this? Or how do you guide people to use this, this kind of tool or technology and in ways that are beneficial? Elizabeth Yeah. What's interesting about this one is that the same technology that causes the problem can also help solve the problem. So so when you're looking at your corpus of data, you can use AI to find places where you have data in balance and and just to kind of re explain the what happened in that case, right. So they had a data imbalance where it was Miss identifying Different races that they had less data for. So, you know, a less controversial example is if we're talking about fruit, right, so if we have a dataset that has 20, oranges, two bananas and 20, apples, then it's just going to be worse than identifying bananas, right? So one of the things that that can be done is you apply AI to automatically look at your data balance and say, and surface those issues where it can say, hey, you have less of this thing, you probably want to label more of that thing. Grant So I'll try to manage the data set better in terms of proper representation. And try finding, finding bias is a real challenge for organizations. And I think one of the things that your platform would allow or unable to do is if you can take off the pain of all of the machinery of just getting through this and and free up organizations time to be more strict in terms of evaluating and finally, oh, taking the time to do those kinds of things, I think you might have an opportunity to improve in that area meeting customers might be able to improve in there, would that be a fair takeaway? Elizabeth Yeah, it's something that that we're really passionate about trying to provide tools around. And, and we're kind of prioritizing these these tools. The other one is, is that has to do with your data is as well is finding inaccuracies in, in your models. So the one example is X ray machines. So they did. They've basically they had an inaccuracy in a model that was finding a correlation, I think it was for it was for the disease detection. So it was finding a correlation just when the X ray was mobile, versus when they went into kind of a hospital to get the X ray. And so, you know, these models are in many cases, really just very strong pattern detectors, right. And so one of the things that can really help to, you know, to prevent something like that is to make it easy to slice and dice your data in as many ways as possible, and then run models that way. And make sure that you aren't finding the same correlation, or the same sort of accuracy with a different data set, or a different running of the model in a different data set. So said, in other words, you would be able to say, I'm going to run all of the portable X-ray machines versus all of the hospital ones, and see if I'm getting the same correlation as I am with, you know, cancer versus not cancer, or whatever they were looking for. Grant A quick question for you on this. So in my experience with AI, I have found sort of two things to consider. One is the questions that I'm trying to get answered guides me in terms of, you know, how I prepare the model, right? I'm gonna first lean towards certain things, obviously, if I want to know that this is a banana, right, or an apple or what have you. So the kind of question that when I answer leads me to how I prepare the model, which means it leads me to the data that I select. And the question is, is do I do I? Should I spend the time really putting together the strong set of questions? And rather, rather than do that, just gather my data? And then and then execute that data, the build a model? And then Ben, try to answer some questions out of that, you see what I'm saying that way, maybe I'm not going to introduce any bias into it. Elizabeth So we we encourage a very clear sort of understanding of the questions that you want to answer, right? Because that helps you do a few things, it helps you craft a model that's really going to answer that question, as opposed to accidentally answering some other questions, right. But it also helps you right size the technology so far, for example, if you're doing if you're trying to answer the question of how many people are entering this building, because you want to understand, you know, limits of how many people can be in the building or, you know, COVID restrictions or whatever it is, that that solution doesn't need to have facial recognition, right. So to answer that question, you don't need you know, lots of other technologies included in there. And so yeah, So, so defining those questions ahead of time can really help in sort of a more ethical use of the technology. Grant So one of the first jobs we would then have a small medium business do would be get clarity around those questions that actually can help us take some of the bias out. Is that a fair takeaway from what you share? Elizabeth Exactly like the questions you're trying to answer. And the questions you aren't not trying to answer can also be helpful. Grant Oh, very good. Okay. All right. So all right, the opposite of that as well. All right. So while we could keep talking about bias, let's switch to something that is that I think comes right out of the movie iRobot, right. It's robot rights. Is this, is this a fluke? Or what, you know, is this for real? I mean, what do you think? Is there really an ethical thing to worry about here? Or what? What are your thoughts? Elizabeth You know, in most of the cases that I've seen, it's really more like, it comes down to just property, like treating property correctly, you know, like don't kick the robots because it's private property. So not really around sort of the robot rights but you know, some already established rules be in for the most part, I see this as kind of a Hollywood problem, more than a practical problem. Grant Maybe it makes good Will Smith movies. But other than that, yeah, fighting for rights, right. Now that seems like it's way out there in terms of terms of connection reality. Okay, so we can tell our listeners, don't worry about that for right now. Did you add something back there? Carlos Just an interesting point on the robot rights, right. While while it's far in the future, I think for robot rights, we are seeing a little bit of that now today. Right? When like Tesla AI day, when they came out, they decided that the robot shouldn't run too fast that the robot shouldn't be too strong. I think it's a bit. It's a bit interesting that, you know, we're also protecting the human race from for us building, you know, AI for bad and robots for bad in this case. So I think it's, it's, it's on both sides of that coin. And those are, those are product decisions that were made around. Let's make sure we can run that thing later. So I think I think as we continue to explore robots AI, the the use of that together, this topic will be very important, but I think it's far far away. Grant I'm wondering is that also blends into the next sort of ethical subtopic we talked about, which is threat to human dignity. And it might even crossed into that a little bit, right, which is, are we developing AI in a way that's going to help? protect the dignity of human certainly in health care situations? That certainly becomes important, right? You probably heard on the previous podcasts that I did, I played a little snippet from Google's duplex technology that was three year old technology, and those people had no idea. They're talking and interacting with AI. And so there's that aspect of this. So where's the line on this? When? When is it that someone needs to know that what you're interacting with is actually not human? And then does this actually mean there's a deeper problem that we're trying to solve in the industry, which is one of identity, we've got to actually create a way to know what it is that we're interacting with. And we have strong identity? Can you speak to that? Yeah, Elizabeth I think I think the there's two things that kind of come into play here. And the first is transparency, and the second is consent. So in this case, it really comes down to transparency, like it would be very simple in that example, for that bot to say, Hey, I'm a bot on behalf of, you know, Grant Larsen, and I'm trying to schedule a hair appointment, right, and then going from there. And that makes it a much more transparent and easy interaction. So I think in a lot of cases, really paying attention to transparency and consent can go a long way. Grant Yeah, absolutely. All right, that that that makes a lot of sense. It seems like we can get around some of these pieces fairly, fairly simply. All right, Carlos, any other thoughts on that one? Carlos The only thing there and then touches on the stuff you guys were talking about on the bias piece, right? We're really talking about visibility and introspection into the process. Right. And with bias, you have that in place, right? We can detect when you know there's a misrepresentation of classes within the the model. In some cases, there's human bias that you can get that right but it's it's having that visibility in the same case with the threat to human data. With that visibility comes the introspection where you can make those decisions. You see more about the problem. Grant Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So if we were to to be able to determine we have a bad actor, if there's not transparency, that would be a way that we could help protect the dignity of humans through this. Alright. That's reasonable. All right. So let's move on to again, sounds Hollywood ish, but I'm not sure it is weaponization of AI. Right? What are the ethics around this? I'll just throw that one on the table. Where do you what do you want to take that? Carlos, you wanna start with that one? Carlos Sure. I mean, so weaponization and and I think when we talk about AI and, and the advancements of it, you quickly go to weaponization. But really, weaponization has two different pieces to it, right? It's obviously it depends on which side of that fence you're on, on whether you view that technology is beneficial or detrimental. But in some cases, that AI that same technology that is helping a pilot navigate, it also helps for a guided missile system or something like that. So we really have to balance and it goes back to use cases, and how we apply that technology as a people. But you know, weaponization, the rise against the machines, these kind of questions. While they're kind of out there. They're affecting society today. And we have to be able to have productive conversation around what we believe is good and bad around this while still allowing technology to succeed. So there's a lot of advancements in the weaponization and AI in that space, but it's really, I think we have to take it on a case by case basis, and not like a blanket statement, we can't use technology in these ways. Grant Interesting thoughts? What are your thoughts there? Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, I it makes me think of sort of turning it on its head is, is when is it? You know, when is it unethical not to use AI, right. And so, some of those questions come up when we are talking about weaponization, you can also be talking about saving human lives and making it safer for them to do some of these operations. And and that same question can come up in some of like, the medical use cases, right? So here in the US, we have a lot of challenges around being able to use AI in medical use cases, and there's, and there's some where you can have really good human oversight of the cases, you can have sort of reproducibility of those models, they can be as explainable as possible. But it's still really, really difficult to get FDA approval there. So I, again, I think there's two sides to that coin. Grant And, yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation have stuff wrong, because like, in that medical case, you talked about, you could see the value of using the same kind of technology that would be used to identify a human target, and then attack it, you could take that same capability, and instead use it in a search and rescue sort of scenario, right? Where you're flying something overhead, and you're trying to find, you know, pictures or images of people that might be lost out there. Same kind of thing, right, so, so where how, go ahead, you're gonna say something was, but I can see. Elizabeth And there's even simpler cases in medical, where it's like, you know, there's a shortage of radiologists right now in the US and, and you can use, you can use AI to be able to triage some of that imaging. So, because right now, people are having to, in some cases, wait a really long time to get their sort of imaging reviewed. And so can can, can, and should AI help there. There's also another one along those same lines, where, with things like CT scans, you can use what's called super resolution or de noising the image. And basically, you can use much less radiation in the first place to take the imaging and then use AI on top of it to be able to essentially enhance the image. So again, you know, ultimately exposing the patient to less less radiation. So yeah, there's it's pretty interesting when when we can and can't use it. Mm hmm. Carlos Yeah. And I think just to add a little bit to the one we can and can't right, so, advancements through drug discovery have largely been driven through AI in the same fashion weaponization of various all drugs or other types of drugs have also benefited from Ai. So, I mean, from a society's perspective, you know, you really have to Evaluate not only greater good, but that that ultimate use case like, where where do you want to make a stance around that technology piece. And understanding both sides really provides that discussion space that's needed, you have to be able to ask really honest questions to problems that are, you know, what you can see in the future. Grant So is the safeguard through all of this topic around ethics? Is the safeguard, basically, the moral compass that's found in the humans themselves? Or do we need to have less, you know, legislative or policy bodies? Right, that puts us together? Or is it a blending? What do you what's your take? Elizabeth Um, it's interesting, the UK just came out with a national AI strategy. And they are basically trying to build an entire AI assurance industry. And, and their approach is, so they want to make sure that they're make, they're keeping it so that you can be innovative in the space, right? They don't want to make it so regulatory, that you can't innovate. But they also want to make sure that there's consumer trust in in AI. So they're putting together from a, you know, a national perspective, a guidelines and tests and, and ways to give consumers confidence in whether a model is you know, reproducible, accurate, etc, etc, while at the same time not stifling innovation, because they know, you know, how important that AI is for a essentially a country's way to compete and and the opportunities for GDP that it provides as well. Grant Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I can go ahead, Carlos. Carlos No, I think it's his it's your question. Left alone, should we got kind of govern ourselves? I think, I think we've proven that we can't do that as a people, right. So we need to have some sort of regulatory, and committee around the review of these things. But it has to be in the light of, you know, wanting to provide a better experience higher quality, deliver value, right. And I think I think when you start with, how do we get the technology adopted and in place and deployed in a fashion where society can benefit, you start making your decisions around, you know, what the good pieces are, and you'll start your start really starting to see the outliers around Hey, wait a second, that doesn't kind of conform to the guidelines that we wanted to get this implemented with? Elizabeth And I think also to your question, I think it's happening at all a lot of levels. Right. So there's, you know, state regulation around privacy and use of AI and facial recognition. And, and there's, you know, some the FDA is putting together some regulation, and then also individual companies, right, so people like Microsoft, etc, have have big groups around, you know, ethics and how AI should be used for, you know, them as a company. So I think it's happening at all levels. Grant Yeah, like we said, that is a people we need to have some level of governing bodies around this to, and of course, that's never the end all protection, for sure. But it is, it is a step in the right direction to to help monitoring and governance. Okay, so last question, right? This is gonna sound a little bit tangential, if I could use that word tangential. It's given the state of AI where it is today. Is it artificial intelligence? Or is it augmented intelligence? Carlos I can go with that. So I think it's a little bit of both. So I think the result is, is to augment our intelligence, right? We're really trying to make better decisions. Some of those are automated, some of those are not we're really trying to inform a higher quality decision. And yes, it's being applied in an artificial intelligence manner, because that's the technology that we're applying, but it's really to augment our lives. Right. And, and we're using it in a variety of use cases. We've talked about a lot of them here. But there's 1000s of use cases in AI that we don't even see today that are very easy. Something as simple as searching on the internet. That's helping a lot from you know, misspelling things and, you know, not not identifying exactly what you want and recommendation engines come and say, you know, I think I'm looking for this instead. It's like, Absolutely, thanks for saving me the frustration. We're really augmenting Life in that point. Grant The reason why I asked that as part of this ethics piece is one of the things I noticed. And as I work with the organizations, there's a misunderstanding of how far and what AI can do at times. And and there's this misunderstanding of therefore, what's my responsibility in this. And my argument is, it's augmented intelligence in terms of its outcome, and therefore, we can't absolve the outcomes and pass that off to AI and say, Oh, well, it told me to do this, just in the same breath, we can't absolve and say, We're not responsible for the use cases either. And the way in which we use it, so we own as a human human race, we own the responsibility to pick an apply the right use cases, to even be able to challenge the AI, insights and outcomes from that, and then to take the ownership of that in what the impacts are. Agree, disagree. Carlos Yeah, I would really agree with that. And if you if you think about how it's implemented, in many cases, right now, the best use of AI is with human oversight, right. So it's sort of, you know, AI is maybe making initial decision, and then the human is reviewing that, or, you know, making a judgment call based on that input. So it's, it's sort of helping human decisioning instead of replacing human decisioning. And I think that's a pretty important kind of guiding principle where, where, wherever that may be necessary, we should do it. There's one, you know, the Zillow case that that happened recently, where they were using machine learning to automatically buy houses, and it was not. There was not enough human oversight in that, and I think they ended up losing something like $500 million in the case, right. So it's not really an ethics thing, but but it's just an example where in a lot of these cases, the best scenario is to have aI paired with human oversight. Yeah, yeah. Great, I think. Grant Yeah, no, go right ahead. Yeah. Elizabeth You mentioned you mentioned being able to challenge the AI, right, and that that piece is really important, in most of the cases, especially in the one that he just mentioned, around that. That Zillow case, right, without the challenging piece, you don't have a path to improvement, you just kind of assume the role, and you get into deep trouble, like you saw there. But that challenging piece is really where innovation starts, you need to be able to get back and question kind of, you know, is this exactly what I want? And if it's not, how do I change it? Right. And that's how we drive kind of innovation in the space? Grant Well, and I would say that that comes full circle to the platform, I saw that your organization's developing, which is to reduce the time and effort it takes to be able to cycle on that right to build the model, get the outcome, evaluate, oh, challenge, make adjustments, but don't make the effort to recast and rebuild that model such that it becomes unaffordable or too much time, I need to be able to iterate on that quickly. And I think as a platform you developed and others that I've seen, you know, continue to reduce that I think it makes it easier for us to do that in it from a from a financially responsible and beneficial perspective. 100% Elizabeth Yeah, one of the one of the features that you mentioned was the versioning. And that really ties into a guiding principle of ethical use as well, which is reproducibility. So if you are, if you want to use a model, you need to be able to reduce, reproduce it reliably. And so you're getting the same kind of outputs. And so that's one of the features that we've put in there to help people that versioning feature to help people, you know, comply with that type of a regulation. Grant I've built enough AI models to know it's tough to go back to a particular version of an AI model and have reproducibility accountability. I mean, there's a whole bunch of LEDs on that. That's exceedingly valuable. That's right. Yeah. Okay, any any final comments for me there? Yeah. Carlos I think for my side, I'm really interested to see where we go as people with ethics in AI. I think we've touched on the transparency and visibility required to have these conversations around ethics and our ethical use of AI. But really, in this case, we're gonna start seeing more and more use cases and solutions in their lives or we're gonna butt up against these ethical questions, and being able to have an open forum where we can discuss this. That's really up to us. To provide we have to provide the space to have these conversations, and in some cases, arguments around the use of the technology. And I'm really looking forward to, you know, what comes out of that, you know, how long does it take for us to get to that space where, you know, we're advancing in technology and addressing issues while we advanced the technology. Grant Excellent. Thanks, Carlos. Elizabeth. Elizabeth Yeah, so for me as a as a product person in particular, I'm really interested in these the the societal conversation that we're having, and the regulations that are starting to be put together and kind of the guidelines from larger companies and companies like ours that are, you know, contributing to this thought leadership. And so what's really interesting for me is being able to take those, that larger conversation and that larger knowledge base and distill it down into simple tools for people like small and medium businesses that can then feel confident using AI and these things are just built in sort of protecting them from making some mistakes. So I'm really interested to see sort of how that evolves and how we can productize it to make it simple for people. Grant Yeah, yeah. Bingo. Exactly. Okay, everyone. I'd like to thank Carlos Elizabeth, for joining me here today. Wonderful conversation that I enjoyed that a lot. Thanks, everyone for listening. And until next time, get some AI with your ethics. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

Elizabeth Nader can tell right away whether she is coaching someone that has what it takes to succeed. Yes, talent and intelligence are important, but the ability to be coached is what takes someone that extra step further and gets them to grow past their limiting beliefs. As a coach, entrepreneur, author, and speaker, Elizabeth's mission is to help people realize that they aren't in competition with anyone else, just themselves. She joins the show this week to talk about the importance of embarrassing failure, taking a closer look at our limiting beliefs, who the enemy of our brand really is, and why we should plan to outdo our past, not other people.   Takeaways: [6:07] You are your own brand; Elizabeth believes you are created on purpose for a purpose. [8:13] Find yourself before the world tells you otherwise. There is not enough emphasis on teaching children to believe in themselves and know who they really are before the world forms an opinion and tells them who they should be. [11:14] Your greatest strengths become your greatest weakness without wisdom. Great leaders communicate through authenticity and meet people where they are. [12:17] Don't be a trainwreck! Elizabeth says the trainwrecks are the people who just refuse to be coached. Yes, we know big personalities may have big egos, but the real challenge is listening and not always having a rebuttal or limitation in place. [14:25] The best brands know what they are, they know who their enemy is, and they consistently show up in that manner. For Apple, it represents simplicity. For Starbucks, they may not have the best coffee, but they are clear on building a community. [18:40] God is the best brander in the world. Elizabeth believes that we are created with our unique brand inside of us, but it's up to do the work and show up in an authentic and open way. [22:39] The most successful people learn from their mistakes and see “failure” as a learning lesson. [24:39] Your metron is a circle of influence, and too often we expect our metron to be the whole world. Our metron expands successfully when we find our community and serve them, without trying to be everything to everyone. [33:31] Consumers are getting more and more resistant to giving all their data away because they aren't seeing the return. For example, with Facebook, we don't quite know what all this data they have has brought into our lives. [38:44] As a brand, you must know, what is the enemy? [47:29] There is no limit to what you can achieve if you are in your own lane. Figure out who you are and double down on your gifts. Prosperity comes when you are in your lane.   Quotes: “You are either succeeding or you learn. You only fail if you give up.” — Elizabeth “A confused consumer doesn't buy.” — Elizabeth “If you do the work and you are willing to say, ‘Who am I really?', and let me match that up with what I do, that is when the world opens up to you.” — Elizabeth “You don't need to be something to everyone, just serve your group as best you can.” — Elizabeth   Mentioned in This Episode: Elizabeth Nader | Facebook | Master Your Mindset Radio   Rich Keller

Happy Easter! Elizabeth Rommel gives the scoop on all things entertainment in 2 minutes! We're talking about Rapper DMX's overdose, Kara Keough Bosworth's baby, and Cher's controversial tweet over George Flloyd's murder. Transcription: *twitter notification sound* Mandy: ooh! What's trending now? Tiffani: not sure, but good thing it's time for "The Bronc Buzz! Your two minute entertainment insider! We're keeping you updated on all things pop culture. Music, celebrities, movies . . . you name it! Now, Lights! Camera! Action! —— Elizabeth: You're listening to the Bronc buzz, I'm your host Elizabeth Rommel, and let's talk about some news in entertainment. Celebrities give their condolences to Rapper DMX on his overdose that happened 11 pm on Friday night. Doctors say his condition isn't looking good as he is hooked on life support and in a vegetative state. When he was found a relative who was there explains that paramedics had to recessetate him for 30 minutes and that lack of oxygen to the brain is part of what is making things look difficult for dmx. Kelly Rowland posted a video praying for DMX and his family which caused other celebrities like machine gun kelly and chance the rapper to share their prayers and condolences.The hit 90's rapper has had a long history of drug abuse but hopefully thing turn around for DMX. In lighter news, Kara Keough Bosworth, daughter of “real housewives” star Jeana Keough, announced today on Easter that she is pregnant again. This is big news for Kara as this time last year she lost her son 6 days after his birth due to birth complications. She is excited for her new baby but carries around the memory of her past son and how she relates it to Easter. Kara says, “'For Christians, for Jews, and for me, this time is a reminder of the death of firstborn sons. Sacrifice. Suffering. Mourning. Grief.” Well, her family friends and fans are wishing her good luck on her amazing Easter surprise. Cher apologizes after controversial tweet made by her last Friday regarding George Floyd's murder. George Floyd was murdered last year after cop Derek Chauvin pressed his knee on his neck until he died. This is being brought up again because of the trails going on against Derek Chauvin and the other cops involved. Cher tweeted “'Was talking With Mom & She Said 'I Watched Trial Of Policeman Who Killed George Floyd ,& Cried'. I Said 'Mom,I Know This Is Gonna Sound CRAZY,But.. I Kept Thinking .....Maybe If I'd Been There,...I Could've Helped,'” people were obviously take aback after this tweet. One fan tweeted “I love my Cher but oof. That was a little too white savior complex for me. I know she means well and probably doesn't understand but..honey...no.” Other fans understood that Cher probably meant well and came to her defense. Cher responded today saying “Wrestled With This Twt, Because I Thought some ppl wouldn't understand, Or Believe an Entertainer Could have Honest emotions about a human Being,suffering & Dying,even if It's Only Shown On tv. You Don't Know What I've Done,Who I Am,Or What I Believe.I CAN,I HAVE,& I WILL..HELP.” What do you think of Cher's response? That's all for today's Bronc Buzz, I have been your host Elizabeth Rommel, tune in next time for your news in entertainment and celebrity gossip —— Tiffani: That's a wrap on this hour's Bronc Buzz, you're two minute entertainment insider. Now you're all caught up! We'll see you next time, only on 107.7 the Bronc Retro!

Elizabeth Rommel gives the news in entertainment in 2 minutes. We're talking about "Boy Meets World"'s actress Maitland Ward's return to television, Ariana Grande's announcement of her being a judge on the next season of "The Voice," Demi Lovato's new album with a single featuring Ariana Grande, and Jame Charle's response to the sexual assault allegations towards him. Yikes! Listen to this episode of "The Bronc Buzz" for all the details! Transcription: *twitter notification sound* Mandy: ooh! What's trending now? Tiffani: not sure, but good thing it's time for "The Bronc Buzz! Your two minute entertainment insider! We're keeping you updated on all things pop culture. Music, celebrities, movies . . . you name it! Now, Lights! Camera! Action! -- Elizabeth: You're listening to The Bronc Buzz, I'm Elizabeth Rommel, and let's get into some news! To start off, actress Maitland Ward, who played Rachel McGuire on the TV Show “Boy Meets World” is returning to TV after spending some time in the adult film industry. She is now going to produce and star in a new comedy series called “The Big Time” Speaking of Television, singer Ariana grande announced this week that she will be a judge on the singing competition “The Voice.” Fans started to wonder why Ariana would be a judge on the voice at the height of her career, but the news that she got a $25 million dollar contract, making her the most paid judge on “The Voice” helped to clear up this confusion. Fans are ecstatic to hear which contestants Ariana says “yuh” [Ariana's voice] to and how she will judge on the show. Speaking of Ariana, Ariana Grande is featured on Demi Lovato's new album “Dancing with the Devil / The Art of Starting Over.” They collaborated on the song “Met Him Last Night” which has been a hit for Ariana and Demi fans alike. [*song plays* Demi and Ariana: "yeah, I've seen the devil, yeah I met him last night / one conversation now he's spending the night"] Elizabeth: This new album was released Friday and talks about her 2018 overdose and her journey to recovery which you can also see in her Youtube documentary called “dancing with the devil” YouTube Beauty Guru, and social media star James Charles is under some heat after releasing an apology video on April Fools Day, called “holding myself accountable,” regarding the very serious accusations made about him flirting with underage boys on social media. This is not the first time the 21 year old has had to explain himself about his dating life as he released a video back in 2019 called “No More Lies” talking about the same accusations. Since James released his most recent apology, another young boy has stepped up to share his story. Looks like James will being saying “Hi Sisters!” [Jame's voice] to his cellmates very soon That's all for today's Bronc Buzz, I'm your host Elizabeth Rommel, tune in next time for your news in entertainment and celebrity gossip --- Tiffani: That's a wrap on this hour's Bronc Buzz, your two minute entertainment insider. Now you're all caught up! We'll see you next time, only on 107.7 the Bronc Retro!

We all want good health and a long life. That's why we subscribe to health fads that offer promising benefits to our bodies. But, for this same reason, we tend to neglect foundational health principles. While these are easily accessible to us, there is still so much we can learn and get from them. By going back to the basics, we can take better care of our health, prevent diseases and boost longevity. Dr Elizabeth Yurth joins us in this episode to talk about the importance of cellular health in longevity. She gives an overview of the benefits of foundational health principles in the disease process. Dr Yurth delves deeper into fasting, autophagy and the specifics of spermidine. If you want to know more about slowing the ageing process and boosting longevity, this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are Three Reasons Why You Should Listen to the Full Episode: Find out the importance of hormone metabolisation and cell fixing in preventing and addressing diseases. Learn the importance of going back and forth between different health routines. Discover the benefits of spermidine in improving health.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 181: Genetic Predisposition and Understanding Your Hormones Join the Human Optimization Academy for FREE at Boulder Longevity Institute! Bulletproof Radio Abundance 360 Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population PubMed Seed Scientific Research and Performance Boulder Longevity Institute’s Facebook page       Episode Highlights [01:54] Dr Yurth’s Practise and Boulder Longevity Institute Dr Yurth has been practising orthopaedic medicine for 30 years. Fifteen years into her career, she became frustrated with the band-aid solution process in orthopaedics. She started looking at the way to stop this downhill decline. She did a fellowship in functional and regenerative medicine and incorporated it into her practice.  However, short consultation sessions for such proved to be inefficient, so they opened the Boulder Longevity Institute. They started the Human Optimization Academy to educate people about orthopaedic regenerative care. Every single disease comes down to the mitochondrial level that requires systemic treatment. [07:16] Foundational Health Principles There are a lot of cool fads on taking care of your health. However, we have to start with the basic principles. Metabolising the hormones is very important. A urine metabolite test determines the pathways where hormones are going. Simple lab studies, including CBC and CMP, can give an estimation of longevity comparable with telomere length testing and DNA methylation. Looking at albumin can predict longevity. Listen to the full episode to have an in-depth look at how albumin works! You have to train people to go back to understanding these foundational principles. [21:33] An Overview on Cellular Health Every organ system comes back to cellular dysfunction. When you have damaged mitochondria, the cells are in an altered state of energy. Senescent cells are cells that sit in the body without doing anything. Zombie cells become toxic to the cells around them. To heal any disease, we have to clean out the bad cells. They use fasting in the disease process because it causes autophagy. The biggest mistake people make is to try to have many antioxidants and NAD in the body. To clear out the bad stuff, Dr Yurth and her team use rapamycin and spermidine. Tune in to the full show to know more about these cell-restoring methods! [27:45] Fasting and Autophagy Mimetics There’s a lot of questions about fasting that even experts have no answer to. Autophagy is self-eating. You can have autophagy without being in ketosis. One of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. Taking resveratrol reduces this benefit because it has a potent antioxidant. You don’t want to be doing any protocol and patterns continuously. You have to go back and forth between different things. A balance between mTOR and NPK keeps things in a homeostatic state. [35:08] Muscle Building and Longevity Muscle building is not the key to good health and longevity. The genes that stayed in our body’s genetic evolution are those that will help us survive famines. While research has shown that low IGF people live long, they don’t have good energy. It's about repeatedly bringing IGF levels down and building it up. The cells need a push and pull for them to become healthier. [38:36] All About Spermidine Spermidine is present in every single living organism. It is prominent in our guts and in some food, with the richest source being wheat germ extract. The major research of spermidine is its benefit in cardiovascular diseases. Myeloperoxidase is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker, of which they have seen high levels in post-COVID patients.  Research has also found that spermidine can lower Lp(a). Immune system support is another place where spermidine has been studied. Spermidine, along with the peptide thymosin alpha 1, can improve lymphocytes. The early studies in spermidines are on hair growth. It affects the body's overall regeneration process. [46:29] Using Spermidine Starting from a low level, it takes a while for spermidine to make you feel better. One of the things Dr Yurth did when she started spermidine was to monitor her heart rate variability (HRV) and her Oura ring. HRV is predictive of almost every disease state. Getting a higher dose of spermidine comes at a great cost. But it's putting your health at a priority. [50:35] Why You Should Trust the Research Fixing the cells at the very base level takes time. Dr Yurth is part of the Seed Scientific Research and Performance along with 25 mastermind doctors. Through this, they weed out what works and what doesn’t. If you want to learn more about how Dr Yurth applies her practise, listen to the full episode! There are a lot of inexpensive things you can do that are effective. If it doesn’t respond, that’s the time to pull up the bigger stakes. The Boulder Longevity Institute bridges the gap between research to save lives.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It is not that you run too much; you wear your knees. It's that there is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out, and so you have to treat it systemically, or you're not going to make any progress’. ‘The cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us. But you still got to start at the basic stuff’. ‘There's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor’. ‘I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very basic things that are inherent to life’. ‘You're never going to train doctors; you've got to train people’. ‘There's not really anybody who has one disease that does not have something else wrong; it's just impacted lots of times in different ways’. ‘We want to go back and forth between different things. And we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you’.   About Dr Elizabeth Dr Elizabeth Yurth is the co-founder of the Medical Director of the Boulder Longevity Institute.  She is a faculty member and a mastermind physician fellow in Seeds Scientific Research and Performance (SSRP). She specialises in Sports, Spine, and Regenerative Medicine and has double board-certification in Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation and Anti-Aging/Regenerative Medicine. She has a dual-Fellowship in Anti-Aging, Regenerative and Functional Medicine (FAARFM) and Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine (FAARM). Dr Yurth is also an active athlete and has worked with numerous sports teams at collegiate and professional levels. She does consultations with high-level athletes to optimise performance and aid recovery. If you wish to connect with Dr Yurth, you may visit her Instagram.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can include more amino acids in protein in their diet. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati. Brought to you by lisatamati.com. You’re listening to Pushing The Limits with Lisa Tamati. Fantastic to have you guys back with me again. I hope you're ready and buckled down for another great interview. I really do get some amazing people and this lady is no exception. So today I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth, who I originally heard on the Bulletproof Radio Podcast with Dave Asprey, who I love and follow. And she is a longevity expert. But Dr. Yurth is also a medical director of the Boulder Longevity Institute, which she founded in 2006. And she's double board certified in physical medicine and rehabilitation and anti-ageing and regenerative medicine. So she's a specialist in sports, spine and regenerative medicine.  She's an orthopaedic surgeon, and she's also heavily into the whole regenerative stuff. So from stem cells to different supplements to working with the latest and technologies that are available to help us slow down the ageing process and to help people regain function. So it was a really super exciting episode and I'm going to have Dr. Elizabeth on a couple of times. She's also a faculty member of the 25 mastermind physicians fellows at the Seeds Scientific Research & Performance group, which allows you to stay abreast and teach others in the emerging cellular medicine field. She's also been an athlete herself and works with numerous sports teams and both of the collegiate and professional levels. She's a wonderful person and I'm really excited to share this interview with her.  Before we head over to talk to Dr. Yurth, I just want to let you know about my new anti-ageing supplement. Now this has been designed and developed by Dr. Elena Seranova, who is a molecular biologist who is also coming on the podcast very shortly. And this is an NMN. It has nicotinamide mononucleotide. I recently read the book Lifespan by Dr. David Sinclair, who's a Harvard Medical School researcher in longevity and anti-ageing. And he's been in this field for the last 30 years. And his book was an absolute mind blowing, real look into the future of what we're going to be able to do to stop ourselves ageing to slow the ageing process down. And very importantly, increase, not only our lifespan, but our health span so that we know we stay healthy for as long as possible and don't have this horrific decline into old age that most of us expect to have.  So Dr. Sinclair in this book talks about what he takes and one of these things is an NAD precursor called nicotinamide mononucleotide. I searched all over the place for this. I couldn't get it in New Zealand when I was searching for it. And so I went and found Dr. Elena Seranova, who has developed this product and I'm now importing that into New Zealand. So if you want to find out all the science behind it, please head on head over to nmnbio.nz. That's N-M-N bio dot N - Z and all the information is on there. And you can always reach out to me lisa@lisatamati.com, if you've got questions around that.  We've also updated our running coaching system. So the way that we are offering our online run training system is now on a complete new look. We are doing fully personalised, customised training plans for runners of all levels and abilities. So we will program you for your next goal doing a video analysis of the way you're running, improve your running form through drills and exercises. Build your plan out for you. You get a one-on-one consult time with me as well. And just really help you optimise your running performance and achieve those big goals that you've got. So head on over to runninghotcoaching.com to check that out. Right now over to the show with Dr Elizabeth Yurth in Boulder, Colorado.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. Today, I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth with me from Colorado—Boulder, Colorado, and she is a longevity and anti-ageing expert. She's an orthopaedic surgeon. She's a real overachiever. And I'm just super excited to have her on because I have been diving into Dr. Yurth’s world for the last couple of weeks since I heard about her on the Bulletproof radio show. So Dr. Yurth has kindly given up an hour of her time to come and share her great knowledge. I know we're only going to skim the surface, Dr. Yurth, but it would be fantastic if we can gain some amazing insights on how the heck do we slow down this ageing process. So, Dr. Yurth, welcome to the show.  Dr. Elizabeth Yurth: Thank you so much, Lisa. I've been actually stalking you ever since you asked me to do this. And I've been fascinated with all the things you've been doing and teaching and I love it. I love that there's people like you out there who are now getting the masses involved in this and interested in this because doctors aren't doing it and so it has to be that educate the public. And people like you are paramount to that, so thank you. Lisa: Thank you very much. Yes, I think, yes, this is the beauty of podcasts and such things and will in the internet whenever we can go direct to the best minds on the planet, get the information direct to the consumer, cutting out all the middle people, so to speak, and really get this information out there. Because what I've found in my research in the last few years is that there is so much amazing, great science out there that has never seen the light of day and certainly not in local clinical practice being utilized.  So Dr. Yurth, can you tell us a little bit about the Boulder Longevity centre before we get underway and what your work there is all about and your background? Dr. Elizabeth: Sure, I'd love to. So basically, I've been in the orthopaedic medicine world for 30 years. And about 15 years ago, I actually became very frustrated because I saw people coming in and they would get injured or just have arthritis, chronic pain and we would sort of patch them a little bit and nothing ever really got better, and then something else will get hurt. And it really was just this downhill process from square one. I mean, I tore my first anterior cruciate ligament in my knee at the age of 18 and subsequently, had torn two or three more times between the two knees, had four more surgeries and then it was just a downhill decline.  And so, we started looking at is there a way to stop this, because you don't learn it in medical school, and you don't learn in orthopaedic medicine. And when I started looking into—and this was a very early time in the whole functional medicine space, it was really early, there wasn't a lot. And so I went back to American Academy of Anti-ageing Medicine, which is really the only thing available at that time, and did a fellowship in functional medicine and regenerative medicine and tried to incorporate that into my orthopaedic practice as much as I could. But it's difficult in 10 to 15 minute appointments to do that. So we realized that you can't really do good medicine in that model, and so we opened Boulder Longevity Institute about 15 years ago now. And I really sidelined did both practices, because what I found is that people are still looking for that insurance-based practice, and I try as much as I could to educate them there. And then some of them would transition over to here and over time for 15 years, Boulder Longevity Institute has really grown and developed, and subsequently is now my full-time practice. But we do a lot of orthopaedic regenerative care here, the targeting, taking care of people and getting them healthier in that realm.  But much like you, our focus is very much now on education and we have a whole, what we call, Human Optimization Academy. We're trying to bring the just like you said, the research to the people. Peter Diamandis, who runs Abundance360—is very well known, you probably know him — he has a great quote where he says, ‘Researchers don't do medicine. And doctors don't do the research and learn the research and use on their patients’. And so, there's a lag of about 15 to 20 years since when something is available to us that will make us better and ever getting to us.  Lisa: Exactly. I had the exact same conversation with another doctor, Dr. Berry Fowler and we were talking about intravenous vitamin C and I said, ‘Why is it taking so long and critical care to get this in?’ And he said ‘because it's like turning a supertanker’. He says, ‘It's just so slow’. And so people are not getting the benefit of the latest research. And for an orthopaedic surgeon to go down this anti-ageing functional medicine route is a very rare thing, or at least in my country, it would be a very rare thing. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, orthopaedics does not cross over this line at all. And ultimately, it's one of the reasons I had to leave my other practices because my partners were very much like, ‘Stop talking about medicine. That's not what we do here’. And you have to—even arthritis is a disease. It is not that you ran too much and wore out your knees. There is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out. And so you have to systemically treat it or you're not going to make any progress. Lisa: Oh man, people so need to hear that because it is an inflammatory process that's coming like out of the immune system. And I've heard you say a couple of times on some of your lectures, I listened to one on mitochondria. And mitochondria is sort of the basis of where a lot of other things are coming from, isn't it, and diseases are probably...  Dr. Elizabeth: Everything. Honestly, I think what we're going to find is that every single diseases—every single disease is going to come down to mitochondrial level. In fact, I was just reading a new research article on autism and mitochondrial dysfunction, that they're actually linking this mitochondrial dysregulation in even autism. I don't think that we're going to find any disease that is not linked first to mitochondrial dysfunction, which is fascinating because mitochondria are fascinating. So it's really my passion is, is how do we repair mitochondria. But that you start looking at—you can pretty much do that. You guys go out there and Google mitochondria and any disease you can think of and you will find research to support it.  So, in arthritis it is exactly the same, right, Lisa? You're right. It's damage to now the mitochondria and the chondrocytes. And that damage—you get these damage from chondrocytes, which then are actually spewing these reactive species that are damaging the next cell and the next cell. And simply sticking steroids in that joint is not going to help it.  Lisa: Wow. So we want to talk a little bit today, like we talked about our foundational health—a few foundational health principles so that we can then get on to some of the cooler, more sexier stuff that I want to talk about, like things like spermidine and peptides and NAD precursors, perhaps, and all of these sort of really cool things.  But what are you seeing in your practice—like you're seeing a lot of people who are becoming aware of their health, they're looking at everybody knows the basics about nutrition now, I think. Like, fried foods are not good for us, sugar is not good for us—the basics. But what are you seeing as missing in that foundational side of things? Dr. Elizabeth: So I think this is the biggest thing I've seen over the past—probably a year. And as I've done more podcasts, and I've listened to more podcasts, and now you have all the bio hacker groups and the peptide group, so everybody is doing all this cool thing. So now, like, ‘Oh, I got to go do my hyperbaric and I have to go take my growth hormone, peptides’. And they come in to me, and I was just telling you about a patient I saw who literally had a worksheet, spreadsheet of all the things he was doing. And I said, ‘Well, are you taking testosterone’? And he was 56 years old, I said, ‘Are you taking testosterone’? ‘No’. And I said, ‘Have you ever looked at your nutrient pound’? ‘Nope’.  So, what I really want to encourage your listeners is the cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us, but you still got to start at the basic stuff. So, when we look at people we have to go through and we have to fix—so we look at all the hormones and you just did a great podcast looking at hormone metabolism, right? Because people are so scared of hormones and they’re terrified that these hormones are going to cause cancer. And we know that's not true. It's how you metabolize the hormones that's important, which has genetic and environmental. You just gave an incredible podcast with your guests the other day on that. Lisa: With Dr. Mansoor; he's wonderful.  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. And your epigenetic background, that the key is how these hormones are processed. So when we look at hormones, we actually do a urine metabolite test. So we know exactly where those hormones are going, and are they going down bad pathways or good pathways? So you've got to repair all that, first, fix all the pathways, which you do, and you know your CYP genes and all that kind of stuff. How do you alter it? There's nutrients that you can use to do that. There's tons of things, exercise. So, fix all the hormones first. Men and women all need hormones. I think testosterone’s neglected in women all the time, right? They're on estrogen, progesterone, and I'm like, ‘You’re not on testosterone’? Like, ‘No’. And so even within the realm of our type of medicine, we are neglected in that realm. Right?  Testosterone is huge for women. If you want muscle, you need testosterone.  Lisa: I basically got good muscles. Dr. Elizabeth:  Right, that’s right. So, you've got your testosterone on board, and it has to be not alternating into estrogen—all that has to be involved. So you've got to fix that. And then, there's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor. So, a complete blood count, a CBC, a CMP. Everybody has them, and everybody's doctor looks at and goes, ‘Yep, looks good. There's no reds in there, everything's perfect’. You can actually take that—and Dr. Levine, anti-ageing expert, did a whole algorithm that just taking some of these blood work give you very comparable estimation of longevity as doing telomere length or doing methylation.  So, we have all these expensive tests to look at DNA methylation and telomere to look at age, and you could come up very close to the same number, simply by feeding some of these parameters, like your albumin level and your metabolic calculator that would... Lisa: Wow! Is that available publicly, that calculator?  Dr. Elizabeth: I'm not sure how publicly available it is. We actually have access, and we utilize that in our patients to follow it. But it's great, because these other tests are expensive. And if I want to put you on a protocol and then see if I'm making headway, how do I follow that? So, I don't think people know that, for instance, what is one of the most valuable numbers on your CBC? It’s actually the size of your cells, the mean cell volume, and the rest of distribution?  Lisa: Yes, I'm just studying cell distribution. Dr. Elizabeth: Isn’t that fascinating?  Lisa: We are completely unaware.  Dr. Elizabeth: And have any of your listeners have had the doctor ever mentioned what their MCV is? Or their RDW is? And those are very, very important. So is albumin. So albumin alone, which is not just dietary. There's a great study that you could predict who is going to get out of the hospital alive based on their albumin levels. And so simply looking at things like that. So if your albumin levels are low, maybe it's because you're not eating enough protein, but that doesn't—it tends to be something else wrong. Lisa: Liver not doing something.  Dr. Elizabeth: Definitely. And sometimes that's the need for more beta carotene. Sometimes it's need for more copper. Copper has to help carry the albumin and copper deficiencies are super low. Nobody measures copper. So, you can look at a low albumin and try putting somebody on a little copper, it’s quite GHK copper as a peptide, I might get to the fancy stuff. Using copper as a peptide is an amazing peptide. It's very longevity promoting because copper is super vital to our health. And so sometimes just putting people on two milligrams of copper can markedly improve their health.  Lisa: But isn’t there copper’s also a toxicity problem? Isn't that quite a lot of people have high copper levels?  Dr. Elizabeth: Less than you think. So it's gotten a lot of market to that, right? It has to be that zinc copper balance has to be imbalanced. So that's one of the things. But actually, copper toxicity is pretty easy to tell. When people become copper—toxic on copper, you'll see the lunula, the fingernails start turning, a little discoloured, a little bluish in colour. So it is a little harder to get toxic in copper than people think. I use it a lot for wound healing in my patients. So, it really helps with wound healing. It's why it's in all skin, expensive skin creams, copper peptides are because it's so good for collagen function, it’s so good for wounds. So I think we may scare people a little bit from copper. But it actually has some value. And a lot of times, it's not so much that you have too much coppers, you don't have enough zinc and that balance is not there. It has to be balanced between zinc and copper. So those are simple things that you can actually look at and measure. And you can—I don't have to do it on everybody.  So I see somebody who has a low albumin, I might say, ‘Hmm, we better look at your zinc and copper level’. So we take the CBC and CMP. And how about simply creatinine? If your creatinine is above point eight, that is not good for longevity. So, why is that?  Well, maybe you're eating way too much protein, right? We will erase any high protein diets, super high protein, the kidneys can only process so much protein and your kidneys depend on your genetics, maybe less. So that's all things I think you have to go back when you talk about foundational health.  I spend literally 30 minutes going through a CBC and a CMP with people. They’re so valuable, and those are $12 tests. Not these big, fancy, expensive tests, they don't cost $500 or $600. And by the end of that test, I can give them, this is what your biological age, your pheno age, this is where we really need to target and start with them some very basic, inexpensive things.  Lisa: Crikey dex, that's amazing. I didn't know we can get to that. I mean, I've only been studying blood chemistry for a couple of months and like it's a big topic isn't it?  Dr. Elizabeth: It has some really cool value to it that you can actually look at. Some ranges that—we have all gone from the normal range, right? All your listeners now know this the normal range, there's an optimal stage. Within that optimal range, right, there's one number above that you'll see you start to see a change in ageing. The curve on your projected longevity, you look at  albumin levels, and you look at the curve on your projected longevity. If your albumin levels are less than 4.6, your projected longevity is five to 10 years less than somebody who's above 4.6. Lisa: Crikey. No one's ever told me any of these things and I’ve been studying blood chemistry and from functional doctors, like that's all news to me. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I think that that's the problem. I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very, very basic things that are inherent to life. And now start focusing, ‘Oh, let's look at hormones, right? Let's look at the gut microbiome’. All super important, but all going to be messed up, if the other stuffs messed up, right?  Lisa: You’re basically not in the right place. Dr. Elizabeth: And so I—that's where I get a little frustrated. So now we're targeting back to that whole cellular health, it all comes back down to the cell, fix the cell. As the cell gets fixed, the mitochondria get fixed, everything else falls. So once you've refined that now, we can look at gut microbiomes, if the person is not doing well. We can look at things like micronutrient profiles, and I love micronutrient profiles because I don't know if how much vitamin D you need or how much vitamin B12 you need. Micronutrient profiles, particularly one that gives me intracellular and serum levels, as you know genetics plays a huge role in your micronutrients.  Lisa: Yes, vitamin D, for example. I mean, I know I have bad vitamin D genetics, so I need to supplement with vitamin D. Right?  Dr. Elizabeth: And B12, you've got the SUV people of B12. I’m one of those who need a lot of B12. It's all very genetically based. So, you can predict it from genetics. But then are you accomplishing your goal? I think you need some… Lisa: Measurements. And this is where the combination of what I'm—like the combination of doing your genes and finding out your innate pathways and what they do, and then seeing actually where you are, getting that snapshot of ‘Okay, we are actually in their hormones and stuff’. And it's quite complicated.  And this is the problem is that you go to your local doctor, at least here where I live, and none of this is offered. And none of this is—and so you left as a lay person trying to work this stuff out yourself. And that's quite frustrating and quite difficult. Dr. Elizabeth: It's hard. And it gets caught up again, in the glitz and glamour. I'm going to be attracted to my podcast that's talking all about the coolest, newest thing, it's just our nature is to want the coolest, newest thing. And we just talked about that. We want that cool new thing, because that is on the forefront. And we use those cool new things to help fix the basics. But you still got to know where you are in that standing, and that's really now become, I think, one of my frustrations as I'm seeing more and more people walk in my door, who are doing everything they’re thinking of.  And so we are trying to teach people this. We're trying to teach people how do you interpret your own blood work? How do you look at every one of those parameters and say, ‘What should my albumin be? Okay, it's too high, it's too low. What can I do to fix that’? Whereas, if my MCV is, mean cell volume. If your mean cell volume, and you look at your own. As we age, I look at my 19 year old son, he has a mean cell volume of 83. If I look at your average person who's in their 50s, and 60s, who's our age, it's going to be 97, 98. So the higher that number goes, the more your stem cells are wearing out, the more your bone marrow is wearing out, the more that whatever you're doing isn't working.  So we can use those things, like you can use your infrared, you can do all those great things. Me, I infrared, I cryo, I do all that. But I will tell you some very basic stuff that sometimes has been the things that made changes in those numbers. I want people to know, that's them that, honestly, is why we decided you're never going to train doctors, you've got to train people. But we've also got to get people back to understanding that you've got to sort of learn these things and kind of a fashion of can learn this, learn this, learn this. When I understand everything about how hyperbaric oxygen improves my cell function, have I really learned how to just look at the cell at that molecular level from looking at basic labs? And that's what we're trying to teach people. Start there, and then we give them tools.  Lisa: Fantastic. So people can join Dr Yurth, and get us some of this education. And I've started delving into it and I can't wait to see what else comes along because I mean, this sort of stuff, I'm like already going, ‘Oh my god, I didn't know that’. So I've learned something today already as well. And I'm very definitely guilty of going after the shiny object and love it. Dr. Elizabeth: It’s human nature. That’s human nature.  Lisa: Yes. And so people can go to the Boulder Longevity website and I'll put the links in the show notes and there is a Human Optimization Academy, join up for that and it's actually free at the moment, isn't it, Dr. Yurth?  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. Right now, it's free. And we'll start putting together—so right before COVID hit, we actually had an in-person course. We're actually going to teach how to look at your own CBC and CMP. And COVID hit, and it all sort of fell apart. But we'll be putting that back into sort of a virtual course with people so you can actually get your bloods run. We will walk you through. So, here's how to interpret every one of those little numbers you see on there because I will tell you, every one of those little numbers is important. Everybody just looks at it as a piece of paper, and there's no red marks highs or lows, they sort of discard it. And we'll show you how to look at that and give huge value.  And just from those simple things, you can now say, ‘Maybe I better get a micronutrient panel’, or at least test a copper or zinc or a B12, or D based on some of those numbers that you see being off. And then take the tool, now fix the basics. ‘That's not working? Okay, now, maybe I need to add this, this, this’. Lisa: And then now we can get fancy. Well sign me up for that course because I need it. And I'm already up on some of it, but I wasn't that familiar with some of the things you've just said. So like, that's just like, well. Okay, so we're looking at foundational stuff. Now let's go and look at cellular health, per se, because it all comes down to the cell. The more I look into things, the more everything seems to be about mitochondria in the cell, and what they're doing. and when we're made up of what? 10 trillion cells or something ridiculous. So cellular health, can you give us a bit of a view—it's a big topic, isn't it? But where should we start? Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, well, I'm going to start with first kind of explaining what that means. So, functional medicines, we went from a disease-focused medicine, right? And then we all got very savvy—well, not the doctors—but the rest of the world who got very savvy said, ‘Oh, this isn't working. It's making somebody money, but it's not working to make anybody happy’.  So we went to a functional medicine part. Let's look at organ systems and let's start. So then we went to the organ system, let's look at the adrenal glands and let's look at the liver in this and let's now fix the organ system that's dysfunctional. we got to fix the thyroid, we got to fix the endocrine organs and we have to do all that.  And then now, and this is really super recent, we're realizing that every organ system comes back to a cellular dysfunction. And there's not really anybody who has one disease that is not have something else wrong. It's just impacted lots of times in different ways. So if I have osteoarthritis. So if you have osteoarthritis, your risk of dementia is about fivefold higher. So why is that? Right? Osteoarthritis... because I ran 800 miles a day. But that's not the case, I have patients who run 800 miles and they're fine.  Lisa: Oh, I'm fine. Like, my joints are fine, and I haven't got any osteo. Dr. Elizabeth: And then you have people who are like, ‘Oh, yes, I just wore myself out because I ran too much’. No, not the case. So, there's something wrong. So now we have to go back and look at what is wrong in the cell. So if you think about what power, what is the cell all about? It is the mitochondria. Mitochondria, what gives the cell energy, right? And so as we start getting damaged to our mitochondria with time and life and environment and genetics, and we start getting damage at the mitochondrial level. So, now have these damaged mitochondria. And now we start getting these cells that are in this altered state of energy. And that's when you start getting that senescent cell—cells that are basically sitting there… Dr. Elizabeth: They’re zombie cells.  Lisa: And there's zombie cells, right? And they're producing these reactive oxygen species. And that's why they're called zombie cells, it's because the things that are being spewed out, are now toxic to the cells around them and then toxic to those cells. And so, it truly is like a zombie takeover.  So that's where we look at when we're going back to a cell level. First thing we have to do to try and heal any disease is clean out the bad cells. Clean up the zombie cells. That’s why fasting has been utilized for years in every disease process because we know that fasting causes autophagy, causes bad cells to go away, and now we can rebuild. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is that if I start throwing a lot of rebuilding things into my network, tons of NAD and I'm trying to always be in this state where I've got a lot of antioxidants going. I'm throwing a lot of NAD and well then, I'm actually contributing to that cell senescent state. I've got to get rid of that first.  Clear out the bad stuff and do that periodically. And we use things like rapamycin, you can use it for fasting. And most recently what my go-to has been this spermidine for that talk. And I fell in love with spermidine a few years ago, actually and couldn't get it here in the US. That basically—it came onto my radar because there it worked at a very sort of primal level. Every single organism has spermidine. Anything that every organism has, is vital to life. And so we know that—and then all these studies that show that well, if you have higher level spermidine, you live longer, so. And it was only available in—I don't know if you guys could get it—but it was available in Europe.  Lisa: I’ve just got my first order on its way. But I had to get it via Colorado, and I've actually being in contact with the guys in Austria. So, working on that one, I'm getting it down here. Dr. Elizabeth: We couldn't get it. And like six months or so ago, we finally could get it here in the US. And it works as an autophagy inducing agent. It basically tells the cells to get rid of the bad stuff, it helps to restore the good parts of the cell. And really, at a baseline level is probably the one supplement that I know of, and probably the only one I know of, that is going to be actually balancing cell health continuously. Lisa: So it's homeostasis as opposed to... Dr. Elizabeth:  The homeostatic state. Right.  Lisa: So like, just to backtrack a little bit there because we covered a heck of a lot of ground in a very short time there. So, fasting, I mean, we've heard, like fasting and intermittent fasting and longer fasts are very, very good for us and all that. While a lot of us don't want to do it because it's not very nice... I do intermittent fasting, but I must admit, I don't enjoy it. And I certainly—when it comes to doing longer fasts, I struggle. So I'm always like, fasting mimetics, how can I get some fasting mimetics going? Because like you say, if I'm going to put in the antioxidants, the precursors, which I do as well, which are very important piece of the puzzle, but just that is not enough. So, this is like we've looked at in the past, like resveratrol as being a possible fasting mimetic. And wouldn't it be great if spermidine turns out, and it looks like it is going to be another fasting mimetic that's actually even more powerful. So, I know you do a lot of fasting, you're very disciplined, unlike myself. Dr. Elizabeth: No extra weight, I still have extra weight so fasting’s easier for me. Lisa: But yes, it is a difficult thing to do. So intermittent fasting is probably for me is the easiest go-to because I can sort of coke for it.  Dr. Elizabeth: Time-restricted eating. Really, yes, more doing a 16, 8, kind of thing as opposed to the longer fast. And there's a lot of questions, we don't really know, do you need to long fast? We actually don't know the answer to that. There's a lot of people who say, ‘Oh, you've got to be hit the 48 to 72 hours to really get the full autophagy phase’. There's not a lot of data that actually really says that. You may still be able to get the same benefits from doing time-restricted eating. So we don't know the answer to all these questions.  Lisa: But so what we're targeting with fasting is autophagy. So, autophagy, just to define what autophagy is, is getting rid of the bad stuff, basically. The bad proteins that are damaged, the mitochondria, or mitophagy, in that case. And recycling the parts that we can reuse and getting rid of it. Does the body sort of lock at it when you're fasting, and you haven't got anything coming and going up, ‘I've got no fuel supply, I better start recycling the old stuff’.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. Yes, autophagy is self-eating. And so basically, the cell basically says, ‘Oh, I need to preserve. I'm going to take the good things from the cell, get rid of the bad stuff I don't need. It’s a waste of energy. Getting rid of cells that shouldn't be utilizing my energy’. So and then really by going into a ketotic state, and that's, not utilizing glucose has a huge benefit. Lisa: So ketosis and autophagy, are they hand in hand? Are they part of the same thing? Can you have autophagy without being in ketosis, or are they very much married together? Dr. Elizabeth: No, you can actually have autophagy without being in ketosis. And you can basically be in ketosis and not necessarily have autophagy. So that all kind of depends on the cell, the state the cells in.  One of the problems with resveratrol as a fasting mimetic, you mentioned taking resveratrol continuously, is there's also very potent antioxidant. Remember, one of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. So, I want oxidative stress while I'm fasting. If I'm taking resveratrol, for instance, while I'm fasting, I'm actually not getting as much of the oxidative stress. So, it's working a little different level. That's why I like spermidine a little bit better as it doesn't have that same effect to sort of negate the oxidative stress. Lisa: And for how long for people to get their heads around? I know because I mean, I've been struggling with this one, like the antioxidants sort of paradox. Yes, sorry, you carry on. Dr. Elizabeth: I think the key to remember is you really don't want to be doing any protocol continuously. I was just talking to a guy and he said, ‘What do you do to look like you do’? because I have more muscle. And I said, ‘I don't do anything continuously’. There's nothing—workout, nothing continuously. My food, my eating is never continuously, my supplements are never continuously.  And I think it's a problem as people get in these patterns where they are taking all these antioxidants continuously. I always am going through build-up, breakdown phases. So there's only a few supplements that I will continuously take. One is, I will take spermidine at a baseline level. But if I'm doing a sort of a fast autophagy phase, where I really want to do a big tie up off of everything, I want a very high dose spermidine, much higher dose than just until that time of day.  Lisa: Because spermidine works at a level lower if you like, at the base level. So, when we're talking about antioxidants, what the job is in the cell is to basically scavenge and donate electrons to where you got oxidative stress, and reactive oxygen species and to get rid of it there. But we're actually going a step back and actually stopping the reactive oxygen species, or oxidative stress from happening in the first place. And this is why spermidine at that base level, seems to be one that you can take continuously. And it even builds up to some degree, perhaps in your body or upregulates some of the bacteria in the microbiome. And whereas, antioxidants, we want to sort of cycle in and out. It's like exercise, isn't it? Like when I go to the gym, I'm not going to have my vitamin C right next to when I go to the gym, because that's going to mitigate that cascade of effects that vitamin C has. Yes.  So I'm doing things. I'm taking my vitamin C away from that. And so there's, none of this is good or bad, it's cycling. And I think the more I've looked into things, the body likes this push and pull. It likes a medic stress. It likes to be cold. It likes to be hot. It likes to be pleasant, but it likes to be fasted. It likes to have a good amount of food. It's this whole—because that's how we've evolved, isn't it? Dr. Elizabeth: That's the way life for it was, yes. Lisa: We didn't come from this neutral environment where the temperature is the same all the time. And we're sitting on comfy couches, and we're not exercising and we're not cold, or we're not hungry, and we're not hot, and we're not not anything, and we've got an abundance of everything. And therefore, if we look at our evolution, and how we've come about that sort of a push and pull seems to go right through nature. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, you're exactly right. Remember, there's that balance between mTOR and AMPK, right? We know that AMPK is breakdown. And we know that when we block mTOR, our lives are longer, but we also don't build as much muscle and we don't have as much energy. And what you do is go through phases, build up mTOR, build up AMPK, build up and do that balance, so that you keep things in a very homeostatic state. And you said exactly right, there's great benefits to being hot. You have all the, how great being cold is and doing our cold showers in our cryo and everything. But there's a study that came out recently, I think I quote it in some podcasts I was in recently, that showed that in hotter environments, bone density is much better. So why is it that?  Lisa: Yes, I heard that.  Dr. Elizabeth: There's some effects from the warmth on our body too. So you're exactly right. We want to go back and forth between different things and we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you who are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you. Your body needs to have this back-and-forth balance. And you're right, that is—whenever you give the quote of well, ‘That's how cavemen lived’. You're like, ‘Well, but cavemen died in 18 whatever’.  So how our evolution occurred, right? It's still what, what got us to survive. And it really is how our world is designed, and it's how our cells are designed. So I think that the use of thinking about your body as ‘Okay, I'm going to go through a fast, autophagy phase, and then I'm going to build up and I’m going to build my muscles’. You can build muscle while you're in a fasted state, but it's not nearly as easy as it is when you're eating a lot of food.  Lisa: Yes. And but we're wanting to keep everything in balance so that it doesn't get just mTOR because, if we're in a state of like, activated mTOR all the time, then we are growing, but we were possibly growing things like cancer cells and things like. Dr. Elizabeth: And we know that mTOR activation all the time is closer to death. Lisa: But isn’t it weird, like there's nothing simple about...  Dr. Elizabeth: It actually, honestly, it makes very little sense to me, right? The things—the mTOR, everything's muscle building. Super high IGF all the time and it is muscle building. You would think it would be kind of pro longevity, right, and healthy, and yet, it's not. And the only way I can really—in my mind, reason that out is that if the zombie apocalypse hits, you're better designed to be able to survive without any food and without any—nothing just huddled away in your little house, right? And so maybe the evolution of our body that's for longevity, the genes have kind of stayed there are the ones that really make us survive through famine, right? And yet, that's probably not where we all want to be. We don't want to be huddled in the back of our houses not moving.  And so yes, if you look at Valter Longo and his research on—really low IGF people live longer, they don't have cancer. Yes but they actually don't necessarily feel great. And they don't necessarily see low IGF people all the time, who are fatigued, who don't have good energy, who can't build muscle, who don't exercise. So I think that the thing here is build your IGF, bring it back down, build it up, bring it back down. So, I think that that's where we really need to look at things, as this kind of waxing and waning of everything we do.  In our cellular medicine fellowship program, it's one of the things we're really, really focused on is that's what the cell needs, is a push and pull to it, to really help it become a healthier entity. And I think if we start doing that, we're going to start seeing that that's really where we're going to see that big focus to health and longevity occurrence. It's not going to be ‘Everybody eat this diet’.  Lisa: No, no. And this is like, even as a coach of athletes and stuff. And I did this in my athletic career where I didn't know all this stuff. I ran long, because that's what I do, it was ultra-marathon running. And that's all I did. I didn't train at the gym. I didn't do—and I was not fit. And I was not healthy. I could run long because I've trained that specific thing, but I wasn't healthy. I was overweight. I was hormonally imbalanced. I ended up with hypothyroid. I couldn't have sat on the couch and ate chips all day and probably come out better than I did. Because I'd been doing one thing and one thing that was actually not suited to my genetics either, ideally. And so understanding all of this is not as simple as well, ‘I'll go and do the same old thing, same old and then we'll be good’. I want to sort of flip now and go a bit of a deep dive into spermidine because I think spermidine is the one thing that, this is going right down to the base level of before. Because we want anti-ageing. I mean. We compared ages before this podcast and I mean, I won't share your age, but I was shocked. You look amazing. And I'm like, ‘I want a piece of that’. What is it that you're doing? So spermidine is a part of your—that is one of the things you do take on a pretty much a daily basis. Can you dive into the research? There’s 10 years behind the spermidine and it's only just becoming available. Guys in New Zealand, it's not here yet. I'm working on it. Give me time, I'm getting, I'm working on it. Dr. Elizabeth: So, what we know is as we talked about spermidine is on every single living organism. So, we know it's critical to life, it's what's called a polyamine. It's what a three poly means is spermidine, spermine, and putrescine. And they all have some value. Putrescine is what's in rotting meat. You're probably not going to go eat rotting meat. But there's actually some value to putrescine in our bodies, too. Spermidine appears to have—spermidine is converted typically this into spermidine. Spermidine is innately in our gut. So, it's made by our gut bacteria but it's also in some foods. It's in some a lot of fermented foods, in wheat germ extracts. It's in some peas and mushrooms. It's in some algae.  Probably the richest source of it is a specific type of wheat germ extract. It's apparently very difficult to extract, it's only a certain type of wheat germ that has it's difficult to extract a pure form of it. And so, there is companies that make it from algae as well. But you have to take—actually before we could get spermidine from spermidine life which is wheat germ extract, we actually bought an algae extract one. You really had to take 40 of these little green pills. I mean your hands are green, your teeth are green all the time. 40 of them, I mean, I did that because I wanted it but once we got spermidine.  I get the question all the time about well, it's wheat germ extract. Interestingly, I've celiac patients on spermidine and even though it's not advised for celiac patients, it probably actually is perfectly safe because it's actually working on one of the pathways, that's what makes the gluten exactly unsafe those patients. So, it's probably even if you're—I'm very gluten sensitive, I don't do gluten. I have no problems in spermidine. So, it tends to be pretty well-tolerated in those people. Lisa: Yes, but I've got a brother who’s recently examined and she said, ‘Yes, I can’. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I have two celiac patients on who've done fine. And again, the bio says not to take it if you're celiac, but I think cautiously, there is some research that supports it actually may be useful in treating some of the celiac patients.  So basically, the study is now—there's so many studies on it. In terms of preventing almost every disease in the book, and that's where you and I come back to that whole, is mitochondria the answer to everything? Because we've seen spermidine—you can Google spermidine. I do this. I mean, Google ‘spermidine and Alzheimer’, Google ‘spermidine and cancer’, there's not a disease that we don't have a study on where you can find some connection to higher or lower levels of spermidine being better.  Some of the major research has been on cardiovascular and its benefits and cardiovascular disease. It's one of the things we've been using when we see high inflammatory cardiovascular markers in our patients. We measure what's called myeloperoxidase, which is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker. It's interesting, we've seen it very high in our lot of our post-COVID patients. So patients who have had COVID recovered, coming for labs, we're seeing very high levels of myeloperoxidase. So, we think that's probably from some of the vascular damage that COVID seems to create in some people with certain genetics. And that’s very hard to bring it back down, and spermidine has been one of the things that's been really helpful there for us.  So, it's also any of your patients who have a high Lp little a. Yes, so by Lipoprotein little a, you'll know is basically genetic. Lisa: Yes. And there's not much you can do.  Dr. Elizabeth: Nothing much you can do about it. You use high-dose niacin, but it's hard to take, the liver toxic. Spermidine actually has some research to support it in lowering Lp little a and we've seen that in our practice, it's one of the things we lower Lp little a. So the other place that's been really studied is an immune system support. So we've seen improvements in lymphocytes. So, one of the other labs that you want—when you're looking at that CBC is looking at your neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio.  Lisa: Yes, I've just like I've got a problem with my brother at the moment, lymphocytes, neutrophils down. No, sorry, your neutrophils down, lymphocytes, high.  Dr. Elizabeth: That's a little uncommon, that might indicate some kind of viral illness going on. Typically, what happens as we age is, we start to see the lymphocyte number go down and the neutrophil number go up. So that ratio, which should be around 1.3:1, 1:1, 1.3:1, starts climbing. If you look at the typical person our age is, 3:1. And so, it's hard to get—how do you get back lymphocyte function? You don't have thymus glands anymore. And so the two things that we've been able to utilize to really restore lymphocyte function in our patients who have ageing immune systems is spermidine. And then the other one is a peptide, thymosin alpha-1, which is a thymic peptide.  What our thymus gland does is it takes those two lymphocytes, it tells them what to do and, and once—your best immune function is at puberty. After that, your thymus gland starts getting smaller. And by the time you're 60, you don't really have much thymus gland. And so your immune system starts going a little haywire, it doesn't know what to do. And so what we can do, because really crazy people are trying to transplant thymus glands, or eat sweetbreads, which doesn't work. They do it in France, maybe they taste good, but I don't think it replaces your thyroid function. But you can get thymic peptides. So, two of the things that the thymus gland really makes is thymosin alpha-1 and thymosin beta-4. And thymosin alpha-1 is a very immune modulating peptide, and it really helps to restore normal immune function. So, the combination of spermidine and thymosin alpha-1 and your people who have immune dysregulation, autoimmune diseases. You could start normalising the immune function. So instead of attacking self they start attacking viruses.  Lisa: Wow. And autoimmune is just like, a huge, huge problem. I mean, it's just epidemic levels now.  Dr. Elizabeth: It is epidemic.  Lisa: Sorry, so this would help with that. Oh, my God. Okay. So that's another reason to take spermidine and the peptides. I mean, peptides are harder to get hold of like… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s still harder to get hold of. Your people who are in Europe, thymosin alpha-1 is actually a drug. It's called Zadaxin. We can't get it here as a drug. We've made us a peptide but it actually is a drug. They use it in their chemotherapy patients in Europe and Asia. And so oddly, it's available as approved drug. Probably pricey. Lisa: Most of these drugs are for some unknown reason. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes. Spermidine—someone's early studies and where it actually sort of panned out, as people went after it initially was actually hair growth. And again, if you think about, the tissues, we're talking about, like cardiac here, those are all fast-growing tissues. And that's where spermidine sort of had its nice effect and sort of that whole regeneration process. And so even in guys with thinning hair, spermidine has huge benefits. Just taking on like a milligram a day dose will start the thickening of hair. I noticed when I first started, my nails grew really fast means, I mean, super fast. And so even in those basic things, like hair growth, nail growth, spermidine has some really marked effects. Lisa: Fantastic. We’ve got to get it here.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, it is amazing. I mean, honestly, I feel a little—whenever I see my patients now and I see something wrong. I'm like, ‘Well, spermidine, oh’. Lisa: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is all to confirm because it's such a wide panacea, and it works at base level of the ageing and pathologies and things… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s too good to be true.  Lisa: It's too good to be true, but actually now, it makes sense. And so, it’s fantastic if we find something that is a panacea for many, many things. And also, I've got my first shipment coming from the States, and I'm super excited. Dr. Elizabeth: One of the hard things in what we do, right, is it takes you awhile to feel better, and just starting from a low level, right. Or if you're like us, and you're at a high level, then making this little extra. And so, what I tell people to monitor, because one things I noticed was, when I started spermidine was a pretty—I don't sleep enough, I study too much. But I use my Oura ring, and I monitor my HRV. And so, I know a lot of your listeners have the Oura ring and HRV is very fluctuating. And so it's one of those things, it's very easy to see a change.  So, if I do something like start taking spermidine, I can say no, and you can look at the trend on your Oura ring. And you can say, you can take—started spermidine here, and I had about a 15 point jump in my HRV, which I won't say what it is because it’s just from starting spermidine. So I know it's doing something at a very basic level because HRV is predictive of almost every disease state; so low HRV, you know you have a higher incidence of all Alzheimer, we know we have a higher incidence of cancer. So I know if I'm affecting my HRV, I'm positively affecting my health.  So something really simple that you can do to say, okay, I started this here, and then look back in two weeks, go to your little trends thing and see ‘Wow, look, my trend is going this direction’. Lisa: Wow, I can't wait to see that because yes, I mean, I haven't been able to move the needle on my HRV really. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, me neither. And mine's not good.  Lisa: Yes, and mine isn't great either.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, the downside of sometimes what we do is we're reading all the time and staying all the time and trying to do too much and… Lisa: Brain doesn’t turn off.  Dr. Elizabeth: And that's not so good.  Lisa: Adrenaline driven. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, so it is really, honestly one of the first things I did that really made a dramatic change. Lisa: Wow, I will let you know how I go.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, let me know. Lisa: When mine comes, whether my HRV is now turning up.  Dr. Elizabeth: I will say sometimes you need a higher dose which gets pricey. Lisa: And this is the problem with everything, it's the same with the deep precursors and all the stuff that's fantastic, it does cost. But you know what? I don't have money to burn but I would rather go without a fancy car, go without fancy clothes, go without cosmetics, go without all that to have supplements that work or to have biohacking technologies that work because that's my priority, it’s my health. Because what good does it do me if I have a fancy car, but I'm sick?  Dr. Elizabeth: I know. And it is funny, I was giving this lecture and this woman came in, she asked how much this program we do cost? And she said, ‘Well maybe when I pay off my Lexus, I'll be able to do that’. And I'm like, ‘You’re really willing to spend a lot of money, a $1,000 on an iPhone and’...  Lisa: Priorities.  Dr. Elizabeth: …and car and we just still have to keep putting this focus on your priority, absolutely has to be this your health? And it’s so hard to convince people of that. Lisa: And I'm constantly shocked at people who expect to like, they take a supplement and they don't see anything change for three days and then they're like, ‘It didn't work’. And I'm like, ‘You've got to be kidding’. Like you know your hair is growing, right? But do you see it growing every day? No.  But if you keep going—and with my listeners have heard me rabbit on about my story with my mum and bringing her back from a mess of aneurysm. The reason I have been successful with her is, is not any one particular thing. I mean, yes, hyperbaric, yes, all of these things were a big part of the puzzle. But it was the fact that I keep going when there was no signs of improvement. And I keep going every single day for five years, and I still go. And that is the key is that persistence. And that just keep doing it and prioritizing this, even when you see no results. And that's a really hard sell because people want to see, how long will it take for this to kick in? Dr. Elizabeth: I think it's one of the hardest things about our jobs is—listen, it is very hard. But this is stuff that I'm looking at a future that's 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years down the road, I know these things—I know that they do, they've been proven. So to say they're not working for you is why in every study did they work and oddly, they don't work for you? It just doesn'

Defining Your Message With Lisa McLeod Focus on what you really need Are you being caught in a trap of spending heaps of marketing and getting no traction? We’ve got Lisa McLeod here from Selling with Noble Purpose and she's going to talk about how to make sure that you have a clear cut and defined message. So Lisa, what are some of the main blunders when people start marketing and trying to sell in a new business? What are the things you think they need to focus on?  Focus on these three areas Elizabeth: There are three main things that get in peoples’ way. The first thing is, what they think it means to sell. This is over-describing what they do. Secondly is their expertise. Most people start a business because there are some customers out there who are not getting their needs met. What gets in their way when they are trying to sell is that they are too deep in their expertise. Lastly, they don’t have clarity and purpose. They think their purpose is to sell, but the purpose is to make a difference to your customers. This should be the center of your marketing message and not your product. How do you make a difference to customers? What is your impact?  I’ve definitely fallen into the trap of doing that previously. I’m an engineer who thinks very much in detail. I was in a spot where I knew I had a great product, but I thought, what if I have the cure for cancer but I don’t have the voice and clear message to tell everyone about it. Do you have an example of seeing businesses that highlight what they do instead of why they do it? You need a clear voice Elizabeth: That's right. What they do versus why they do it. Let’s say with the cure for cancer, the fact whether it's injectable or it's a pill, all we care about is the cure for cancer. We need to think this way as sellers. We had an IT company we were working with and it's an American based company. They do IT services and you can outsource all your IT to them. So when I started working on it, we said, what impact do you have on customers? One guy in the room stood up and said, we help small businesses be more successful. That’s what happens when you have that clarity of purpose.  Every time you interact with a customer, that's what you're trying to do, is to help them be more successful. And if you're a business owner one of your challenges is getting your people to have the right behaviors with customers. Absolutely. We changed our marketing messages around after addressing the question of what are we actually doing? We've redefined the message of what we do in business and what we do for people's lives to challenge their operations through creating kindhearted personal relationships driven by cutting edge advancement. We changed our marketing message and said we guarantee your uptime and if you go down, we pay you. The message is very clear, we guarantee that your business will run perfectly with technology and we're happy enough to put our money where our mouth is. Elizabeth:  The exercise you have done is really important. Finding your why can be easy if you have a small business with a handful of employees, but if you go to a mid-size business, you need to be explicit. Why? Because you want a competitive differentiation.  Even if what you are selling is not unique you’ve got to show that you do your business differently. Second, you need an emotional engagement with your people. You have to drive emotional engagement with your team to motivate them to try new innovation. As a leader, you have to articulate the impact you have on customers and make that the north star of the business. Differentiation is Key As your business becomes bigger, the message shouldn’t get watered out. What is the differentiator between copycat-like businesses such as McDonalds and Hungry Jacks?  Elizabeth: You’ve got two key ways to differentiate yourself. Number one is your product, and number two is the experience of doing business with you. I was running the session for a group of leaders and we were talking about this. McDonalds and Hungry Jacks can’t be differentiated from each other. What interests me during the session is, I asked who stands out among these organisations? There is an east coast of America company called Chick Fil-A and a west coast company called In-N-Out Burger. I thought people were going to come to blows arguing about which one is better. The reality is, is the food better at either one of these fast food chains? The place of true differentiation is the experience that you were creating for your customers.  Don’t change your business only in response to your competitors If you've got a business and you're trying to try and work out how to make sure that you are targeting your audience appropriately and being separate from your competitors, what's the best way to do that? Elizabeth: If response to your competitors is the basis of what you're doing for your business, you are not going to create a differentiated experience. If you want to create true differentiation and be clear with your message, you need to find your purpose in the way you do it. You have to answer these three questions:    How do we make a difference to our customers?  How do we do it differently in the competition?  What do we love about what we're doing?    When you answer these questions, this creates the story of your business and that's the story you go out to the market with. Talk to your customers and get honest feedback I always say the best way to find out how you make a difference to your customers is to ask them, would that be fair?  Elizabeth: Totally. If people are buying your products or renewing their contracts with you, this means that you are doing something as simple as creating a great experience. Or maybe helping them to be more successful because as an IT company, you are doing all their back up IT. Company owners can sleep at night knowing that you take care of the technical side of their business. It’s not just about the product but the impact you are making on your customers.   Find out the “why” We've had a customer who had to leave and so I asked them, what could we have done differently? So if you're selling something that's not very much a commodity and not like a burger, like an IT service, How do you make sure that you understand your competitors? How do you make sure that you know them well enough to know that you're doing the right thing and you're definitely doing it differently to the competition?   Elizabeth: Instead of asking your customers why did you buy from us, instead, how did working with us impact you? They can say, you were cheaper, you were the first one here or you had more widgets, but what matters is to know the impact you have on them. This is how you will differentiate your business in the competition.  One of the products we sell was by far the cheapest in the industry, it is selling us as the hook to get you in the door. It is not a high-profit product. It is up to think about possibly what if their current provider isn't doing what they meant to be doing and starting to dive in to see how we are different from their current provider. In B2B, target businesses you are excited about  Elizabeth: I once asked the customer, “why did you pick us”? They said, we picked you because we could tell that you were really excited about our business. And so I started saying that we only go for businesses we're really excited about. You have to be specific on what you sell and make sure you have a lens on it.  It’s the frame of mind. When you are excited that rubs off on other people. Once you have purpose in business, what's then the connection to profit? Elizabeth: Companies with a purpose bigger than money outperform their competition by over three hundred and fifty percent. People that sell with purpose, whose purpose is to improve life for customers, outsell people focused on targets and quotas. And this is important if you're in any kind of a sales function or if you're a leader in the business, the reason why is flip it. Who would you rather have calling on you? Someone whose purpose is to help you or someone who's just trying to close you? It shows up in every aspect of the business because you've got to have really clear systems and processes just to be a successful business.  But you will not be a differentiated business which is the most profitable business, you will not be differentiated unless you have clarity about how you and your team make a difference to customers if you're just sort of running your business in that transactional way. Profit is the test of your validity.The purpose of a business is to improve life for customers. Profit tells you whether you're doing it or not. Create a tribe of true believers So you're focusing on the right information. A good example is Apple. What they're selling is the experience of selling the support. They're selling a beautifully crafted product. Their message is clear.   Elizabeth: That's right. Steve Jobs was very famous. He had a conversation with John Sculley and he was trying to persuade John Sculley, who was the CEO of Pepsi, to come to work for him. And as the CEO of Apple with the great excitement and honor, I got to interview John Sculley a couple of weeks ago for a piece I did for Forbes. And he said, I remember Steve Jobs saying you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life or you want to change the world?  Apple is a good example. And you might be listening to this and you might sell ice cream or concrete, but there is innovation in every space. And the reason Apple has innovated, the reason the customer experience is amazing. The reason the products, they're always on the cutting edge, the reason they look beautiful, the reason that out of the box experience is great is because they're not selling technology. They're selling making a difference to you. They're selling you on having a beautiful experience. And that's where everyone's eyes are pointed to. And where that comes from is the language of the leader.You point the team and if you point your team towards revenue targets.You'll only be mediocre if you point your team toward something bigger and then use those commonplace metrics as a way to measure your progress. You'll create what I call the tribe of true believers, which is definitely what the people at Apple are also places. So I understand that you've got a special code that we can copy for any of the listeners now? Elizabeth: Yeah. So if you want to buy the book, you can enter your receipt number, which I love. But if you don't, just for your listeners, just enter the code BBF and you'll get the assessment. There's no reason why people can't jump across it and get that happening. I'm going to ask you a question. It's probably going to be an easy one to answer, but we ask most of our guests, what's your favorite book? Check out Selling With Noble Purpose Elizabeth: So my latest book is Selling With Noble Purpose. I will tell you a book that has influenced me greatly, which is Viktor Frankl's Man's Search For Meaning. And there's a connection between that and the work that I do. Some people don't think a man searches for meaning is about finding something to tether yourself to during challenging times. And he was a victim of the Nazi concentration camps. The thing that I realised in reading that book years ago was people need to tether themselves to something bigger than themselves and that that was the key to surviving a challenging time. While my circumstances are not as dramatic, there's a story in selling with noble purpose about when my husband and I lost a business and I had to dig deep and find a way to come back from bankruptcy. Selling With Noble Purpose is a lot of how I did it. I'm not comparing myself to Viktor Frankl. I'm saying I was inspired by him and I thought about him a lot. I thought about what I didn't know ten years ago when I was having to come back from the recession, but I realised in hindsight that tethering yourself to helping your customers vs tethering yourself to your revenue number, that will give you the tenacity to prevail.  That's good advice. I know that I found that a long time ago that I love helping people with technology. But what I really love doing is making a difference in their lives. And the book that changed my life is the Go-giver by Bob Burg. He's changed my mindset about business and how people hold your information.   Elizabeth: There is now reviewed data that says that everything that you've just described about helping others and putting them first results in you. Winning your market, having more profitable business and enjoying your life a lot more. Living for something bigger than yourself. Hopefully that means you're leaving a legacy behind or you have set a good example. If anyone is looking to better their business and make sure that you are selling with noble purpose, you can jump across sellingwithnoblepurpose.com and jump onto the assessment. Otherwise, stay good and stay healthy out there. 

We take a dive into the practice of design from a parenting practitioner’s perspective. This episode is for you if you have kids or are thinking about having kids or your curious about the term work life balance. We will look at how parenting impacts the design process. Guest SummaryMegan Plante is a A&D Marketing Manager with OFS. She is a mother of two and has started a social media account called Mothers of Design, also known as MOD Squad. MOD Squad's vision is to create a voice and recognize that mothers in design exist. She strives to normalizing parenting by creating events around parenting and design. In this episode, Megan and I are going to take a dive into parenting, being a practitioner, and honing our voice of what feels right as a practitioner with a work life balance.Whether or not you have a family that you're currently living with, or you're thinking about starting a family. We will look at what it means to have a work life balance within the context of a modern day design practice. In this episode we asked Megan:What led you to starting MOD Squad?What have you been hearing and feeling in the design industry from working parents?How do you think the profession has shifted since parents are working from home?There are parents in the workplace, then there are mothers in the workplace, how are mother's brains wired and how does that impact the workplace? Do you think the 9-5 is realistic for parents?What advice do you have for the younger you when thinking about having kids in the design profession? “We as practitioners have to remember that working is a relationship. We have a relationship with our job. A relationship means there is a give and take. It is not a constant take. That is not a relationship.” - Elizabeth“You're going to come across other ways of thinking, other relationships, other people, other upbringings. You are also going to come across people that have a very narrow mindsets, and I think no matter what, honor what is in you. Listen to your inner voice and what it is telling you to do. Be true to yourself.” - MeganIf you are a parent and practitioner that is seeking a work life balance we would love to hear what has worked for you. Please share elizabeth@milelongtrace.com. We want to hear from you and help build this profession together. Make sure to follow us https://www.instagram.com/milelongtrace_podcast/ and tag a fellow designer that comes to mind when you listen to this episode. Till next time keep designing yawl.

I get it - life as we know it changed overnight. And none of us has any previous experience with a pandemic.And that can be scary. That can freeze actions, businesses and have a huge impact on our lives.So how do we do our part to mitigate that - for ourselves, our businesses, and the communities we are part of?Side note: the online coaching/mentoring industry is one of the few economic areas right now that can actually make money and help this money energy continue to circulate.The responsibility we have right now as mentors, leaders, influencers is bigger than our business.It is a responsibility towards our communities and the world at large.So how do we BEST deal with our fears so we can help ourselves and others?The first step: understand what is under the fear.Feel emotionally and brain paralysed these days, while hitting the refresh button of the news websites consuming the general panic on repeat?Ask yourself:What is beneath the surface? What am I afraid of right now?Most fears go under one of the following 3 categories:1. You are afraid of loss - loss of health, even life, income, business, lifestyle...Check inside and write down what you are afraid of losing. And then look at each item on your list and ask yourself:- Is this a certainty?- What is a more positive story I can tell myself right now?Here's the truth, Elizabeth:You've already dealt with hardship and loss before.And you've made it through, you've always managed your way on the other side.Right now, you can either freeze and shrink down, or engage with the challenge, follow inspired actionand start moving forward.2. You are dreading the difficulties coming upWhile I don't believe that struggle is usually required I also know that once we are presented with an inevitable challenge we better honour it, engage with it and give it our best.You can't anticipate what's going to happen exactly. But there is something you have FULL control over: Your emotions, your strength, and your commitment to moving forward.So how do you choose to show up every day?Decide, step into that energy. And make a daily practice out of choosing and aligning with that vibration every single day.3. You fear what's on the other side - once this is over.Here's a truth about the human mind:We tend to catastrophise everything, anticipating the worst right up to death and complete ruin.This habit has helped us survive as a species. But most of times it causes unnecessary suffering. And binging in that energy can hurt not only your health, but also your business and life in general.So choose to visualise what you DECIDE that the other side feels like for you.Who are you being there?What are you doing?And what does your business/ life looks like?Align with that energy, decide and re-decide it until you believe in your vision more than in your fears.One last thought:The times of uncertainty and general confusion are EXACTLY when the leaders rise above the noise ride it out and show the way.Who do you choose to be?P.S. when you're ready, book in a FREE 1:1 coaching session with me to see if I can help you with any problems you're facing right now.https://calendly.com/themoneycleanse/1hourfindyourpurposediscoverycall

Welcome to Season 2 Episode 6 of the Creative Business Success Podcast! I'm psyched about today's episode because we're going to be talking about something you don't hear a lot in creative business circles: how working for exposure can be GOOD for your business! Elizabeth, the artist behind By Elizabeth Hope, is joining me today to share how and when exposure can be truly beneficial for your business's bottom line and how to figure out when it's okay to work for exposure.Here's a cheat sheet of some of the episode highlights:Elizabeth's intro, 1:03"Exposure is the bad guy!" 2:05Elizabeth's experiences with working for exposure, 2:45How to find the right opportunities to work for exposure, 5:29Know your audience before working for exposure, 6:57Working for exposure when starting your creative business, 10:13Working for exposure as practice for working with clients, 11:06Should you get paid for other work before working for exposure? 12:41One of the most effective digital marketing methods, 15:17NEVER PAY TO WORK FOR EXPOSURE, 15:53Get creative with the value from working for exposure, 17:51How to use working for exposure as marketing, 18:26How to use working for exposure as business networking, 21:02Presenting yourself professionally while working for exposure, 21:41Improving your creative business through working for exposure, 22:23Choosing when and who to work for exposure, 24:22Finding GREEN flags before working for exposure, 25:53Other times to work for exposure, 27:01Vetting someone before working for exposure, 28:47Elizabeth's closing thoughts on working for exposure, 31:34Where to connect with Elizabeth, 33:15Let's dive deeper into a few of these key takeaways...1 | Know your value when working for exposureIf you're working for exposure simply because you don't think anyone will pay you for your creative work - STOP. That is the worst time to work for exposure and it'll only degrade your confidence as a creative entrepreneur. We mentioned this several times in this episode because it's such an important point.Some folks are confident enough in their creative work before they make a sale that it's okay for them to work for exposure before that. If that's not you, though, wait until you make a few sales before you seek out or accept exposure work. Knowing your own value will help you communicate that to your work-for-exposure clients and keep you from getting suckered into a bad experience.Working for exposure can be good for creative entrepreneurs, but you have to know yourself. Give yourself a self-evaluation to determine if you're mentally ready to work for exposure or if you should wait.2 | Vet your clients before working for exposureYou may have heard Elizabeth mention that SHE sought out her work-for-exposure clients, not the other way around. This is the opposite of most work-for-exposure stories. By seeking out her clients, Elizabeth was able to validate the opportunity before accepting it.One of Elizabeth's key criteria for accepting a work-for-exposure project was the charities the project would support. When she and her client have a mutual goal for the project, it helps Elizabeth know they share some of the same values and that they aren't in it to take advantage of her.Another good way to vet a client before working for exposure is to ask if they have a plan for marketing. If you can create a marketing plan with them before starting the project, you'll both be more likely to get good returns from the project. If they aren't willing to create a marketing plan with you, you may need to re-evaluate the project to make sure the client is in it for the right reasons.By vetting your clients before working for exposure, you're setting yourself up to be a success story instead of a horror story! Look for the green flags just as much as the red flags, like we talked about in this episode, before accepting a work-for-exposure project.3 | Find other value in working for exposureWhile we've all heard horror stories about other creative entrepreneurs who worked for exposure, it doesn't mean that's the case for everyone. Elizabeth is a great example of this! At the time of this recording, she was working on two projects that she was doing for exposure.The key difference in Elizabeth's story is that she knows exactly what value SHE is getting from these projects. Yes, she's giving value to the businesses she's working with, but she also has a solid plan to get a monetary return for her investment of time. If you go into a work-for-exposure project with a plan in place to get a financial return, you'll be in a much better place than many creative entrepreneurs.Whenever you work for exposure, there should be a solid plan in place for you to get a monetary gain in the end. It may not be directly from the project, but it could be from referrals or marketing opportunities that you receive from the project. Regardless, you need to get something out of the project in the end!Want to connect with Elizabeth?You can find her on her website, and on Instagram @artistshope, on Facebook @artbyelizabethhope, and Pinterest @byelizabethhope. Don't forget to subscribe to the Creative Business Success Podcast for more episodes and share your biggest takeaways in the comments! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

The Italian TableBy Elizabeth Minchilli Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book podcast. With Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors. Elizabeth: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Minchilli and my latest cookbook is The Italian Table.Suzy Chase: The Italian Table is glorious, from the recipes to the photos. The first thing you see when you open the cookbook is the stunning kitchen with rustic blue and white tile, and blue and white plates hung on the wall. Is this your kitchen?Elizabeth: Oh, I wish! That's a kitchen in a beautiful castle outside of Rome. Although I've spent a lot of time in it.Suzy Chase: Oh, that tile is to die for.Elizabeth: Beautiful. And you know, a lot of the kitchen, I didn't get into all the kitchens in the book, but the particularly beautiful ones I tried to include since they're so inspirational.Suzy Chase: I can't figure out what's more beautiful in this cookbook, your writing or your photographs. What do you love more?Elizabeth: Well, you know, for me, since the kinds of books I've always done have been so image-driven, I can't imagine one without the other. And I see the photographs as giving a different dimension to the words. And that's always been my response to cookbooks, you know. I love, obviously, recipes that work, but I love the story behind them. But I also like the visual inspiration, whether it's actually the food or the place settings or the tiles on the kitchen wall.Suzy Chase: Me too. So I found it interesting that each chapter captures a specific meal that you experienced in Italy. Describe how this cookbook is laid out.Elizabeth: Well the way, I was trying to decide how to combine my competing passions for, you know, interior design and setting and history with food. And I realized that it all came together at the table. And once I decided that, I wanted to share as many different kinds of meals as possible to show my readers how Italians really eat. I mean you know, most people imagine certain dishes with Italy, whether it's pasta or pizza or gelato. But people aren't eating those things all day long, and they're not eating them perhaps in the way that people think. So while the settings are beautiful, these are really the way people eat, whether it's at the beach, whether it's on a coffee break, you know, grabbing a slice of pizza in Rome. Whether it's in a summer vacation villa outside of, in Umbria. So I wanted to have a great range and that way to be able to explore both the setting and the food on the table.Suzy Chase: Yeah, I notice that you really drill down beyond the ingredients, beyond the cooking technique. Like you'll get the pasta and the bowl, but what about the bowl, or the tool used to get the pasta from the bowl to the plate or even the linens that cover the table. I love that part.Elizabeth: Yeah, that's my ... I love that part too. And not just because it involves shopping opportunities. What I really love about it is that it really, you know, 'cause when you go to a place you might have a great meal and you might support the local restaurants, in a way, but there's other ways that you can learn more deeply about a region and that's by visiting its artisans. And you know a lot of people will see pretty, you know, ceramics from Italy and stop there, knowing that they're from Italy. But I really like to, you know, drive home why this certain kind of plate shows up if you're on the beach in Positano, why a different kind of bowl shows up if you're in a small town in Puglia, and what those mean. And explore a bit about the people who are actually making those bowls, who are often the people that are eating those dishes anyway.Suzy Chase: Here's the question I'm dying to know the answer to. How did a girl from St. Louis end up in Rome as an expert on Italian cuisine?Elizabeth: Well, that goes back to the fact that when I was 12 years old I was living in St. Louis and my parents took a vacation, and they went to Italy and they did Florence, Venice, Rome. And they came back and instead of getting back to our life they packed up our house, sold the business, and we moved to Rome for two years. And although we only stayed there for two years and then moved back to the States, we always came back in the summer. And so I always felt at home whether it was in Italy or Spain or France, trying to get a way to get back, and that way came back in graduate school. And in the late '80s I decided if I picked a, you know, my dissertation topic correctly, I could get somebody else to sort of fund my permanent vacation, and I did. And I ended up in Florence working on sixteenth century gardens. And then along the way I met my Italian husband and started having Italian babies and Italian dogs and that's when my new career really shifted gears from academia to publishing. And at the beginning I was writing predominantly about art and architecture and design, but almost really really shortly thereafter I also started writing about food. But always in a cultural context. You know, when I was writing for Bon Appetit or Food & Wine or Town & County I would write about restaurants but more, not just as a place to find good food but as a way to dive deeper into the culture.Suzy Chase: Tell me about where you live.Elizabeth: I currently divide my time between Rome and Umbria. Umbria is a region located just north, in between, let's say, Rome and Florence. And my main house is a little apartment in the old section of Rome called Monti. It's a little, I'm now talking to you from my office on the roof of our building. We've been living here, my husband had the apartment when I met him, my kids have been born here, and it's right, I mean, if I walked out, I just now walked down the street and my cash machine, my ATM, is in front of the Colosseum. Which is kind of nice.Suzy Chase: Oh, wow.Elizabeth: And then our house up in Umbria, which is on the cover of the book, actually. We spend the summers there and have a big vegetable garden and we have olive trees so we make our own olive oil and that's where we live.Suzy Chase: How old is your house in Umbria? It looks like it's stone.Elizabeth: It's made out of stone. And the house itself is, I would say parts date back to the sixteenth century.Suzy Chase: Wow. That's gorgeous.Elizabeth: And you know, like all of these houses, they're built onto over the years, and we restored it. My husband's an architect, and his specialty is restoring these houses into inhabitable places. And in fact two of my books talk about restoring houses in Italy.Suzy Chase: Talk a bit about how the Italian food words are the hardest to tackle. Like, cicchetti, in Venice, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. What is it, and where would we eat it?Elizabeth: Well, cicchetti is a word that yeah, exists only in Venice. Took me a really hard time to figure out what it means, because people translate it into tapas, you know? 'Cause we think we know what that means. Or little bites. And they kind of are both those things. But when you say to a Venetia, they know exactly what it means and it has a sort of social context. It means, little things to eat along with a glass of wine so you don't get too drunk 'cause that's not the point. The point is actually meeting your friends and having a drink. And the food is sort of secondary. And you know all this stuff I just said, it's hard to put down in a one word translation. But it's funny you ask that because I mean, food in Italy is so difficult to translate and this past week I just did food tours as well, and Melissa Clark was just here and we were doing-Suzy Chase: Yes. You had your Awful Tour.Elizabeth: We had our Awful Tour. And it wasn't awful at all, it was wonderful. But it did deal with innards. And one of the things that we both learned, you know, we were both in Umbria, in Rome, and in Florence, is you know, the same little part of an animal can have, you know, ten different words depending where you are in Italy. And for me, that's sort of the fascinating thing. There's always something more to learn. You know, you said I'm an expert in Italian food, but I find it hard to believe that anybody's an expert. I think that there's always something to learn.Suzy Chase: Well since you brought up Melissa Clark, tell me about your food tours and your daughter Sophie.Elizabeth: So, when I first started my blog I didn't really know, you know, back in the early days of blogs, I didn't really know what it would lead to and how it would make money. 'Cause blogs don't make money. And so one of the things that it led to was doing food tours. And people started asking me for food tours and I didn't quite know what they were at the time. Nobody was really doing them in Rome. And so I started doing them, and I did market tours around several different neighborhoods in Rome on my own, and was immediately very busy doing these tours. And I was doing it on my own for a few years and then luckily my daughter, Sophie, graduated university. She was going to school in London, came back here, and I convinced her to work with me. And so now we both got sort of more work than we can handle. She's doing, handling the day by day tours here in Rome. I do some of them as well. But my time is mostly focused on our week in Italy tours. And those are deep dives into different regions. We're currently doing tours in Rome, in Florence, and in Puglia. And we do them on our own, they're usually six nights. We do them on our own, sometimes we partner with people. I've partnered with Melissa Clark twice and Evan Kleiman, who's located in LA. She's a cookbook author and host of Good Food.Suzy Chase: The best.Elizabeth: Yeah. And then in July we're doing one with Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat Pray Love.Suzy Chase: Oh cool.Elizabeth: Yeah. We're doing one in Puglia. So it's a fun excuse to collaborate with friends, and also see Rome and Italy in general from a different point of view.Suzy Chase: What influence did Anna Tasca Lanza and her cooking school have on you?Elizabeth: Well I just remember seeing the book really early on, you know, when I first moved to Italy, working on my dissertation. I can remember picking up the Marcella Hazan books, cooking through them, and then there were these books also by Anna Tasca Lanza. And these beautifully illustrated books. And Sicilian food at the time, even in Italy, people weren't really talking about it. And I just found it fascinating. And when I started writing about food and getting sent on press trips, I found myself at the Tasca d’Almerita estate. And seeing these pictures of the food processes that were going on in both of the houses on the estate. And there was one house that sort of focused on the wine and then there was Anna Tasca Lanza at the other villa. And I would see these pictures of like, women pouring tomato sauce on wooden planks in a sun drenched courtyard making tomato paste, and her recipes talked about these really romantic memories of the house cook sort of teaching her how to make things, and with the ingredients from the land. And it always was something that stuck in my head, and over the years I've made it back there as many times as possible and I'm really happy to recreate a menu inspired by my time there.Suzy Chase: You have a gorgeous porchetta in this cookbook. What is the key to a good porchetta?Elizabeth: Well obviously the key to any of these dishes is getting great ingredients. And the other thing is that you have to sort of, a lot of these recipes that people love are often eaten in certain places. For instance, porchetta is most likely eaten at the side of the road, you know, as you're driving through Italy there's a porchetta stand and he's got, you know, this 200 pound pig on the side of the road that he's cutting thick slices off of. I don't think anybody that's buying my book has an oven big enough to fit a pig in it. And so the challenge of my recipe was creating a porchetta that you could cook at home. And in that case it was something that would fit in your oven, have all that crispy skin, have all the nice juicy fat, but not get dried out in the middle. And so I, working with my local butcher in Umbria, I came up with that recipe. So it has all those things. And it's just super easy. Once you get the really right kind of meat, you barely season it. I mean, you season it correctly, tie it up correctly, you put it in the oven and you walk away. So, and I have to say, most of the recipes in the book are sort of, you know, not a lot of work.Suzy Chase: I can't talk about porchetta without bringing up fraschetta. Describe a fraschetta.Elizabeth: A fraschetta.Suzy Chase: Fras-, yes.Elizabeth: Sorry! They're all really hard. Everybody mispronounces my name, too, because the C and the H and all those things are really hard to get in Italy. So, a fraschette.Suzy Chase: Yes.Elizabeth: A fraschetta is a restaurant located in the town of Ariccia. It's south of Rome and it's known for its porchetta. And these fraschette were originally just little shops, like hole in the walls that would sell wine. And people would sit outside and to provide shade the owners would put up a few branches to provide shade, so its leaves still attached. And those are frasce. And so these places became known as fraschette, where you could go get sort of table wine. And bring your own food. Eventually these places started serving their own food, turned into restaurants, but they're still called fraschette today. And one of the places that actually, Sophie and I visit a lot, is la Selvotta in Ariccia. And the pictures in the book come from our experience there, which is one of my favorite ones because it's actually located in a leafy sort of forest.Suzy Chase: It looks heavenly.Elizabeth: It is. And the food is just, you know, it's what you want to sit down at a picnic bench and eat. It's like, mozzarella and salami and olives. And then you always have a few cooked things included. Porchetta, maybe, some sausages. It's fantastic.Suzy Chase: So last night I made some of your recipes out of the menu for a late summer dinner under the pergola. Even though it's the dead of winter here.Elizabeth: I saw that, I saw that! I saw that. You put them on Instagram. They looked perfect. Well, I have to say when people are asking me what's my go-to recipe in the book, it's the bean soup recipe. It's just so good.Suzy Chase: It's two minutes.Elizabeth: I know. It's two minutes. And people really think you put a lot more effort into it than you did.Suzy Chase: Yeah.Elizabeth: I mean, if you start out with dried beans and soak them, it does become, you know. And I do suggest you do that. But I'm not gonna tell anybody if you use canned beans, that's okay.Suzy Chase: Okay, thanks.Elizabeth: But I have to say, it's a great winter recipe, but then I find that in the summer if you serve people soup they really appreciate it. It's like something they don't expect and they're sick of eating cold food.Suzy Chase: Describe the story that went with this menu, how you became a good Italian momma immediately after your daughters were born.Elizabeth: Well one of the things, one of the many things that I realized, is that being an Italian momma has lots of sort of unspoken rules. And one of them is that while you stay in the city with your kids during school year, the minute the school year ends or the weekend comes, you head out to a country house. And I don't know how it is, but everybody seems to have a country house. Whether it's your Nonna, whether it's, you know, your friends, you go out to the countryside. And so I would pack up the kids and go up to the country. And so that's where, you know, even though we live in Rome, I learned to cook a lot and entertain at our house in Todi. And you know I learned to cook, you know, meals according to the seasons as well, which is something that's, I think, really important.Suzy Chase: So moving on to my segment called My Last Meal, what would you have for your last supper?Elizabeth: You know, it has to do with place as well. So I think I would have to say, maybe a plate of carbonara at one of my favorite Trattoria, Perilli in Rome. Just because for me that sums up sort of everything. It sums up the place I would go for Sunday lunches with my family, it has my favorite waiter Valerio, it's a place that's always been there before I got there, it will exist long after I leave. And the plate, you know, the carbonara goes without saying.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Elizabeth: On social media, I'm eminchilli at Instagram. And I am Elizabeth Minchilli on Facebook, and eminchilli on Twitter. And my website is elizabethminchilli.com. And I also have an app, Eat Italy, which is guides for eating your way through Rome, Venice, Florence, Puglia, Umbria, and more and more cities every day.Suzy Chase: Thanks Elizabeth, for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.Elizabeth: It was great to be here. Thanks for having me.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram, @cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery By The Book podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks, since 2015.

Hi! No podcast Inglês Online de hoje, falamos sobre mais um idiom daqueles que você não encontra no seu livro de inglês. Ouça bem o episódio e se familiarize...  Daqui a pouco, o idiom começa a sair da sua boca. True story! Não perca. Transcrição Hi! You're listening to the new episode of the Inglês Online podcast. Download the Inglês Online app at the Google Play Store or the Apple Store - search for "inglês online Ana". Thank you for telling everyone you know about this podcast and, enjoy! So, we start today with a term that will make total sense to you - I'm sure of it. Check this out: “If anybody knows how to make a great cappuccino, it's Bruno”. See? Even the name is Italian. So, obviously you say that when you want to highlight that Bruno is very skilled at making cappuccinos. He's better than all the other people you can think of. So, when your coworker Elizabeth says “Hey, I'm throwing a party this weekend and the theme is Italian-Japanese fusion. I'm going to have sumo wrestlers and lasagna.” Yeah, and also, Elizabeth wants to serve great cappuccino to her guests. That's the only missing piece for her - she's got the sumo wrestlers sorted, she's making the lasagna herself because she's really good at it, but she doesn't know anyone who can make great cappuccino. So, you say to Elizabeth “You have to meet my friend Bruno. If anybody knows how to make great cappuccino, it's Bruno.” So, your friend Bruno makes the most delicious cappuccino you have ever had. I mean, even Starbucks (the coffee shop chain) has been trying to hire him, but Bruno likes to work independently. Even Starbucks knows that if anybody can make a good cappuccino, it's Bruno. So, let me give you some other examples: if anybody knows how to make delicious lasagna, it's your friend Elizabeth. If anybody knows how to solve hard Math problems, it's Tommy. In the past: when you were still in school... if anybody knew how to have a good time it was your friend Chris. If anybody knew how to hold students’ attention, it was teacher Marcos with his History lessons. So, listen to this example from Twitter, from Los Angeles Valiant: ‏ If anyone knows how to party, it's #VALLA fan, @TPAIN. Get tickets now

One of the most powerful moments in War Room comes when Miss Clara says this to Elizabeth: “You need to plead with God to do what only God can do. And then you need to get out of the way and let him do it!” Are we pleading with God in prayer, or going through the motions?

Please Note:  This was recorded as a Facebook Live earlier this year prior to the recent ruling to overturn the California End of Life Options Act 2015 by Riverside County Superior Court Judge. In response, California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed an emergency appeal seeking a stay of Superior Court Judge Daniel Ottolia's ruling that invalidated the less than two-year-old medical aid-in-dying law.  "It is important to note the ruling did not invalidate the law or the court would have said so explicitly in its order, so the law remains in effect until further notice," said John C. Kappos, a partner in the O'Melveny law firm representing Compassion & Choices. If this law and the right to die with dignity is important to you, we urge you to learn more from Compassion and Choices the organization that helped get the law passed.  Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Need more information? Contact Dr. Bob for a free consultation. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, Elizabeth Semenova and I speak very frankly about what it's like to support people through Medical Aid and Dying. We explain the process; we discuss who asks for this kind of support and why there are still so many barriers. This was originally captured as a Facebook Live and repurposed as a podcast because this information is so vitally important. Please share the podcast with everyone and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'm going to do a little bit of introduction for myself, if you're watching this and you have been on the integrated MD Care site, you probably know a bit about me. I've been a physician for 25/ 30 years, somewhere in that range. Over the past several years I've been focusing on providing care for people who are dealing with complex illnesses, the challenges of aging, the challenges of dying. During these few years, I've discovered a lot of gaps in the health care system that cause a lot of challenges for people. Dr. Bob: We developed a medical practice to try to address those big challenges in those big gaps that we've encountered. It's been really remarkable to be able to do medical care in a way that is truly sensitive to what people are really looking for and what their families are looking for that is not constrained and limited to what the medical system will allow. It's not constrained by what Medicare will pay, what insurance will pay. We allow people to access us completely and fully and we are there to support them in a very holistic way with medical physician care, nursing care, social working care and then a whole team of therapists. Massage therapists, music therapists, acupuncturists, nutritionists. Dr. Bob: So that has been really fascinating and phenomenal. Elizabeth came along in the last several months. Really, she was drawn primarily to the true end of life care that we deliver and has been truly surprised how beautifully we are able to care for people who aren't necessarily dying as well. Elizabeth: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Bob: So we can talk about all the different aspects of that, but we are here today to really talk about Medical Aid and Dying. Because, shortly after we started this practice, back in January 2016 California became one of the few states in the United States that does allow physician-assisted death. Dr. Bob: It allows what is also known as Death with Dignity, Medical Aid in Dying. The California End of Life Option Act passed in June 2016. At that point, a person with a terminal illness, an adult who is competent, had the ability to request a prescription of medicine from their physician, from a physician. That if taken, would allow them to have a very peaceful, dignified death at a place and time of their choosing. Since June 2016 we have become essentially experts and kind of the go-to team in San Diego for sure and actually throughout a good portion of Southern California because other physicians are reluctant to participate or because the systems that the patients are in make it very difficult or impossible for them to take advantage of this law. There is a lot of confusion about it. It's a very complex, emotionally charged issue. We as a team, Elizabeth and I, along with other members of our team have taken it upon ourselves to become true experts and guides so that people can get taken care of in a way that is most meaningful and sensitive. In a way that allows them to be in control and determine the course of their life leading up to their death and how they are going to die. That's why we are here. We want to educate; we want to inform, we want people to not be afraid of the unknowns. We want to dispel the myths. I'm passionate about that. We work together, and I think we do a very good job as a team, of supporting patients and families. I'd like to have Elizabeth share a little about why this is so important to her and then we are going to get into some more of the specifics about what's actually taking place, the requirements, how the process works and if there are questions people have we are going to answer those as well. We are going to go for about 20/ 25 minutes, and if it turns out that we don't get through enough of our material then we will have another session, but we don't want to make this too long. We want to make it concise, meaningful and impactful. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. Elizabeth: Okay. I started as a hospice social worker, and I became an advocate for Aid and Dying because I learned about the law. Learned that there were not a lot of options, policies, procedures in place, in Southern California when I started working in hospice for people to take advantage of and participate in the End of Life Option Act. Elizabeth: There were very, very, very few resources. There were no phone numbers to call of people who would answer questions. There were no experts who, well not no experts, who thoroughly understood the law but it was very hard to access that information. Elizabeth: I did my best to find it and became connected with some groups and some individuals who were experienced with and understood the law and became really passionate about pursuing advocacy and allowing as many people to have access to that information as possible. I started working on sharing that information and being a resource and learning everything that I could so that other people could have that. How I became connected with Integrated MD care and with you, I found you as a resource for another client, and we started having conversations, and I learned that it was possible to be supportive of people through this process through the work you were doing and I took the opportunity to become a part of it. We have done a lot to support a lot of people, and it's become a really special part of our work and my life. Dr. Bob: Why is it so important to you? Why is it so important to you for people to have access and the information? Elizabeth: I really believe that every life can only be best lived if you know all of the options that you have available to you. So how can you make choices without information? Right? So when it comes to something like this which is a life and death situation, quite literally, there are limited resources for people to make informed choices. What could possibly be more important than having access to information about what your legal rights are to how you live and die? With California only having begun this process of Aid and Dying. Exploring different perspectives and legal options and philosophical positions on the subject, I think it's really important to open that conversation and to allow people who support it as well as people who are against it to have those conversations and to explore how they feel about it and why. Then of course for the people who want to participate, who want information, resources, support in the process they have every legal right to it, in my opinion, they have every moral right to it and if there are no other people who are willing to support them I feel it is my duty to do that. Dr. Bob: Awesome. And you do it well. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah it's kind of crazy to think we have this legal process in place. People have spoken up and said, we want to have access to this, and we believe it's the right thing. Despite the fact that we have a law in place that allows it, it was so difficult, and it's still is to some degree, but especially in the beginning, it was like a vast wasteland. If somebody wanted to find out how to access this process, no one could really give them adequate information. There were organizations that would tell them what the process is and how it happens but there was no one stepping up to say 'I'll support you.' There were no physicians, and there was no one who was willing to give the name of a physician who was willing. It was very frustrating in the beginning of this process, in the first, I would say, the first year and a half. Still, to some degree, getting the right information, getting put in touch with those who will support it is difficult or impossible. Even some of the hospital systems that do support Medical Aid and Dying their process is very laborious, and there are so many steps that people have to go through that in many cases they can't get through it all. Our practice we are filling a need. Our whole purpose in being is to fill the gaps in health care that cause people to struggle. One of my mantras is 'Death is inevitable, suffering is not.' Right. We are all going to die, but death does not have to be terribly painful or a struggle. It can be a beautiful, peaceful, transformative process. We've been involved in enough End of Life scenarios that I can say that with great confidence that given the right approach, the right information, the right guidance, the right support it can always be a comfortable and essentially beautiful process. Elizabeth: Something that is important too also is to have people who have experience with these processes these struggles that people have. Not just anyone can make it an easy process. Not just anyone can make it a smooth process. You have to have it those obstacles you have experienced what the difficulties are and where the glitches are and in order to be able to fill those gaps you have to know where they are. Dr. Bob: Right. Elizabeth: Sometimes that comes from just falling into the hole and climbing out which is something we have experienced a few times. Dr. Bob: Having been through it enough times to... and of course we will come across- Elizabeth: More... Dr. Bob: Additional obstacles but we'll help...and that doesn't just apply to the Medical Aid and Dying it applies to every aspect of health care, which of course, becomes more complex and treacherous as people's health becomes more complicated and their conditions become more dire, and their needs increase. Hospice, yes it's a wonderful concept, and it's a wonderful benefit, but in many cases, it's not enough. Palliative Care, in theory, great concept, we need more Palliative Care physicians and teams and that kind of an approach, but in many cases, it's not enough. What we are trying to do is figure out how to be enough. How people can get enough in every scenario. We are specifically here talking about Medical Aid and Dying. In California, the actual law is called The End of Life Option Act. It was actually signed into law by Governor Brown in October 2015, and it became effective June 9th, 2016. I'll note that just yesterday the Governor of Hawaii signed the bill to make Medical Aid and Dying legal in Hawaii. The actual process will begin January 1st, 2019. There is a period of time, like there was in California, a waiting period, while they're getting all the processes in place and the legal issues dealt with. Elizabeth: Which you would think, that would be the time frame that health care intuitions would establish policies, would determine what they were going to do and how they were going to help. Dr. Bob: One would think. Elizabeth: You would think. Dr. Bob: Didn't happen here. Elizabeth: That didn't happen here. Dr. Bob: So maybe Hawaii will learn from what happened in California recently when all of a sudden June 9th comes, and still nobody knows what to do. What we are becoming actually, is a resource for people throughout California. Because we have been through this so many times now and we have such experience, we know where the obstacles are, we know where this landscape can be a bit treacherous. But, if you understand how to navigate it doesn't have to be. Elizabeth: We have become a resource not just for individuals who are interested in participating or who want to find out if they qualify but for other healthcare institutions who are trying to figure out how best to support their patients and their loved ones. TO give them without the experience that they need without having the experience of knowing what this looks like. Dr. Bob: Yup. Training hospice agencies. Training medical groups. At the heart of it, we just want to make sure that people get what they deserve, what they need and what they deserve and what is their legal right. If we know that there is somebody who can have an easier more supported, more peaceful death, we understand how incredibly valuable that is, not just for the patient but for the family. For the loved ones that are going to go on. So let's get into some of the meat of this. I'm going to ask you; we can kind of trade-off. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: I'll ask you a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: You ask me a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. If you don't know the answer, I'd be very surprised. In general who requests General Aid and Dying? Elizabeth: A lot of the calls we get are from people who qualify. So I don't know if you wanna go over the qualifications... Dr. Bob: We will. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: That's the next question. Who is eligible. Elizabeth: Sorry. A lot of the people who call are individuals who are looking to see if they qualify and want to know what the process is. There are people who are family members of ill and struggling individuals, who wanna support them in getting the resources they might need. There are some people who just want the information. There are some people who desperately need immediate support and attention. Dr. Bob: Do you find, cause you get a lot of these calls initially, do you find that it's more often the patient looking for the information or is it usually a family member? Elizabeth: It's 50/50. Dr. Bob: Oh 50/50. Elizabeth: I think it depends a lot on where the patient is in the process and how supportive the family members are. Some people have extremely supportive family members who are willing to make all the phone calls and find all the resources and put in all the legwork. Some people don't, and they end up on their own trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. There are some people who are too sick to put in the energy to make 15 phone calls and talk to 15 different doctor's offices to find out what the process is. A lot of people start looking for information and hit wall, after wall, after wall. They don't even get to have a conversation about what this could look like, much less find someone who is willing to support them in it. Dr. Bob: Great, thank you. So who is eligible? Who does this law apply to? That's pretty straightforward, at least in appearance. An adult 18 or older. A resident of California. Who is competent to make decisions. Has a terminal illness. Is able to request, from an attending physician, the medication that if taken, will end their life. Pretty much 100% of the time. The individual has to make two requests, face to face with the attending physician and those requests need to be at least 15 days apart. If somebody makes an initial request to meet and I determine that they are a resident of California, they are an adult, they are competent, and they have a medical condition that is deemed terminal (I'll talk more about what that means) if I see them on the 1st, the 2nd request can happen on the 16th. It can't happen any sooner. The law requires a 15 day waiting period. That can be a challenge for some people, and we will talk a bit about that as well. In addition to the two requests of the attending physician, the person needs to have a consulting physician who concurs that they have a terminal illness and that they are competent to make decisions and the consulting physician meets with them, makes a determination and signs a form. The patient also signs a written request form that is essentially a written version of the verbal request and they sign that and have two people witness it. That's the process. Once that's completed, the attending physician can submit a prescription if the patient requests it at that time to the pharmacy. Certain pharmacies are willing to provide these medications, and many aren't. But, the physician submits the prescription to the pharmacy, and when the patient wants to have the prescription filled, they request that the pharmacy fill it and the pharmacy will make arrangements to have it delivered to the patient. The prescription can stay at the pharmacy for a period of time without getting filled, or it can be filled and be brought to the patient, and at that point, the patient can choose to take it or not. The patient needs to be able to ingest it on their own. They have to be able to drink the medication, it's mixed into a liquid form. They need to be able to drink five to six ounces of liquid, and it can be through a glass or through a straw. If the patient can't swallow, but they have a tube-like either a gastric tube or a feeding tube as long as they can push the medication through the tube, then they are eligible. The law states that no one can forcibly make the patient take it. They have to be doing it on their own volition, willingly. Okay. So, that's pretty much the process. Is there anything that I left out? What is a terminal illness? That is a question that is often asked. For this purpose, a terminal illness is a condition that is likely or will likely end that person's life in six months if the condition runs its natural course. Most of the patients that we see requesting Medical Aid and Dying have cancer. They have cancer that is considered terminal. Meaning there is no cure any longer. It's either metastasized, or it involves structures that are so critical that will cure them. In most cases, there is no treatment that will allow them to live with a meaningful quality of life, past six months. Of course, it's difficult to say to the day, when somebody is going to die, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that condition can end their life within six months. We also see a number of people with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. That's a particularly sensitive scenario because those people lose their ability to function, they lose their motor function, and as it gets progressively, further along, they lose their ability to swallow. They can lose their ability to speak and breathe. The time frame of that condition can be highly variable. We see people with advanced heart disease, congestive heart failure, advanced lung disease other neurologic diseases. Elizabeth: The gamut. Dr. Bob: We see the gamut, but those are the majority. We've talked about who's requesting this for the most part, who's eligible? A patient who is competent has a terminal diagnosis and is an adult resident of California. We talked about the requirements, what's the process. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that we've identified or that other people have identified. At the very beginning of this process, I became aware that the law was going to begin taking effect just a few months after I started my medical practice at Integrated MD Care and I figured great this is progressive. We are kind of like Oregon, we are going to have this option available, and I felt like it was the right thing. I've always felt like people should have more control and be able to be more self-determining. Especially at end of life. Who's life is it? Right? Who are we to tell somebody that they have to stay alive longer than they want to. That never made sense to me. I think if you're not in this world of caring for people at end of life or you haven't had an experience with your family. Most people figure when people are dying they get taken care of adequately. Hospice comes in, and they take care of things. IN some cases that's true. In many cases, it is the furthest thing from the truth. People struggle and suffer. Patients struggle and suffer, families suffer and if we have another option, if we have other options available wouldn't we be giving them credence? My answer is yes, we should. So when the law was coming into effect, I figured physicians would be willing to support patients because it's the right thing. I just assumed people would go to their doctors and say 'we now have this law, can you help me' and the doctors would say 'of course.' It didn't quite work out that way. Now I understand why I see it more clearly. People started calling me to ask for my support, and I started meeting with them and learning about what they were going through and learning about all of the struggles they've had through their illness and trying to get support with what is now their legal right and they were getting turned away by doctor, after doctor, after doctor. I learned what I needed to learn about the process and I started supporting a few patients here and there. As time went on, I saw A)what an incredibly beautiful, beautiful process it is. What an extraordinary peaceful end of life we could help people achieve and the impact that it has on the families was so incredibly profound that I know that this was something that I needed to continue supporting. With the hope that other physicians would come on board and there wouldn't be such a wasteland and so much struggle because I can only take care of some many people. Well, it's a year and a half later, and I do think things have- Elizabeth: Improved. Improved some. Some of the hospital systems in San Diego certainly, have developed policies and process to support patients through the Aid and Dying, sometimes it can still be laborious and cumbersome, and hiccups occur that create great challenges and struggles. But what we've developed is a process that is so streamlined. Like Elizabeth mentions, we've come across so many of these obstacles and these issues that couldn't have really been anticipated. That have to do with hospice agencies not wanting to be supportive. Of not being able o find a consulting physician for various reasons. Coroners and medical examiners not understanding anything about this process. So we've had to be educating them to make sure that the police don't show up at somebodies house in the middle of the night. It's become a real passion for both of us and our whole team. To be able to do this and to be able to do this really well, as well as it could possibly be done. More doctors are coming on board and being open to this. I'll tell yeah, I'm not so sure that's the right thing, and we have thoughts about that. I've been talking a lot, so I wanna sit back and let you talk, take a sip of my coffee and I wanna hear your thoughts on- Elizabeth: Other doctors. Dr. Bob: Other doctors and how they perceive this. Why we may not just want every doctor- Elizabeth: Doing it. Dr. Bob: Doing it. Elizabeth: I think it's really important that other doctors be open to it. Especially open to the conversations. I think one of the things that has been the most important for me is to help people start those conversations with their doctors, with their families, with other healthcare providers. A lot of the doctors are restricted by policies where they work or by moral objections or just by not really being familiar and being concerned that they might misstep. I think that having doctors come on board first in terms of conversations is fantastic. Then also learning the process is important. As simple as it is in the way that you described it it's more complex than that. There are a lot of small details, paperwork, and requirements. Things have to be done a certain way in order to be compliant with the law. There are aspects of supporting the family. This is a very unique experience. If you as a physician don't have time to have longer conversations with patients and families, if you don't have time to provide anticipatory support and relief for the grieving process or for the dying process, it can be a struggle for the patients and families to go through this even if they have the legal support that they need. I think that that's one of the things you were referring to in terms of why it's not necessarily good for everybody to come on board. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Because if they say that they will support a patient and be their attending physician through this process, they could start the process and then come across some of these hurdles that they don't know what to do with and it could completely derail the process. It's too critical when patients finally feel that they now have this option available to them, that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, every little misstep and every little delay, is- Elizabeth: Excruciating. Dr. Bob: Excruciating. We see that happening over and over again. So when people find us and we assure them, we will help you get through this without any more hiccups, without anything getting derailed, they are very cynical. We tell them- Elizabeth: They've been so many doctors, they've been to doctors who've said... Dr. Bob: They've been screwed, they've... Elizabeth: We will help you, and they haven't gotten the help that they need. Dr. Bob: There is nothing that's more painful for somebody, an individual or a family member who's finally come around to wanting to support mom or dad or husband or a wife or a child and then to have it be taken away from them or threatened. We make ourselves available. There are times when we say we are available for you anytime, day or night; you can contact us. They start calling us; I've gotten calls at 2 in the morning from somebody just to say I just wanted to make sure you were really there. That you really would respond. They can't wait to get to the endpoint. Not even because they are ready to take the medication but because they are ready to have the peace of mind and the security of knowing that they have an easy out, rather than have to struggle to the bitter end. Elizabeth: This is really about empowering the patient and the family. This is all about providing them with the opportunity to do what they want to do with their life. To live it the way they want to live it and to end it the way they want to end it. Not in a way that is incongruent with their moral, ethical, spiritual life choices. In a way that supports the way that they've lived, the principals they've lived by and the things that matter to them. I would also say that the difficulties that doctors have had and the struggles that we've had in working with other physicians it's not because they don't care about their patients. It's not because they don't want the best thing for them. Maybe they disagree with what the best thing is, or maybe they feel that they are not able to provide sufficient support. There are a lot of really good doctors who aren't able, for whatever reason, to do this. Dr. Bob: That's a great point. I think a part of it is that sometimes they work for organizations that won't allow them to, and that happens often. Then they don't understand the process; they are intimidated by it. They don't want to mess it up. And, they are so busy that they feel like it's going to require too much time out of their day. Elizabeth: Which it does. Dr. Bob: Which it can, and they don't have any way to bill for that. They feel like they are going to be doing everybody a disservice. But unfortunately, that often leads to the patients being in this state of limbo and not knowing where to turn. Elizabeth: Thinking that they maybe they have started in the process and Dr. Bob: Not, we have certainly seen that. Elizabeth: Discovering later that they haven't. Dr. Bob: So we are going to close it down here shortly. One of the things, and you spoke about empowerment, and how really important that is, both for the patients and for the families. One thing that I've recognized, so now I've assessed and supported well over a hundred patients through this process. I've been with many of these people when they've taken the medication and died. So, I've seen how beautiful and peaceful it is. It literally in most cases, a lot of times there's laughter and just a feeling of incredible love and connection that occurs with the patient and the family in the moments leading up to that. Even after they have ingest the medication we have people who are expressing such deep gratitude and love and even laughing during the time because they are getting freed. They are not afraid, they are almost rushing towards this because it's going to free them. Most of the time they fall asleep within a matter of minutes and die peacefully within 20 to 30 minutes. Sometimes sooner. Occasionally a bit longer. But, if anyone is wondering if there is struggle or pain or flopping around in the death throws. None of that. This is truly...this is how I want to go when it's my time. The one thing that seems very consistent with the patients that I've care for through this process is, they have a physical condition that is ravaging their bodies. Their bodies are decaying, they are declining, they are not functioning. Their bodies are no longer serving them. But their spirit, is still strong. They have to be competent to be able to make this decision. Most of the time they are so determined to be in control of what happens to them, their spirit has always been strong. They have lost control because their bodies no longer function and that is irreconcilable for them. They cannot reconcile this strong spirit in a body that is no longer serving them and that is only going to continue getting worse. That's the other important part of this. These are people who are dying, they are not taking this medication because they are tired of living. They are taking this medication because they are dying and they don't see any reason to allow their death to be more prolonged and more painful, than it needs to be. They are empowered, and we are empowering people to live fully until their last moments and to die peacefully. My last little note here is, why do we do this? Well, that's why we do this. Elizabeth: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Because people deserve the absolute best most peaceful, most loving, death. This is in many cases, the only way to achieve that. I think we are going kinda wrap it up. We obviously are passionate about this topic. We are passionate about wanting to share the realities of it. We don't want there to be confusion, misconceptions, misunderstandings. Aid and Dying is here; it's not going away. It's going to continue to expand throughout our country. We are going to get to a place where everybody has the right to determine when their life should end peacefully when they're dying. I'm very happy and proud to be on the forefront of this. I know it's controversial, I imagine there are people who think that I'm evil and I'm okay with that because I know. I see the gratitude that we get from so many patients and families. When we go out and speak to groups about this the vast majority of people are so supportive and Elizabeth: Sort of relieved, even the professionals are so relieved. We have a patient, we have been helping another doctor support that patient, and he's so relieved and so friendly and so grateful just to be able to provide the support that he wouldn't otherwise be able to provide. It's not just the patients; it's everybody we engage on this, it's really amazing. Dr. Bob: Thank you. It really is an honor to watch you engage with the patients and families and to be as supportive of what we're doing. It's remarkable. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: We will talk about some of the options that people have when they don't qualify for Aid and Dying because there are other options. We wanted to address some of those options as well but not on this live; we'll do that maybe next time. Thanks for tuning in, have an awesome day, and we will see you soon, take care. Photo Credit:  CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS PUBLIC DOMAIN  

ELIZABETH COOPER SMOKLER has spent 40 years working as a Hollywood makeup artist, primarily on TV sitcoms such as Roseanne, The Ellen Show, Reba, Blossom, The Larry Sanders Show and Who’s the Boss? It’s been a wonderful career – except, that is, for all the sexual harassment she’s had to deal with in the process. (50:53)     EPISODE NOTES: Not long before allegations surrounding Harvey Weinstein jump-started an ongoing dialogue on sexual harassment in Hollywood, I talked with veteran TV makeup artist ELIZABETH COOPER SMOKLER about her experience working with lecherous celebrities. ELIZABETH: “These are people with a lot of power that nobody ever says ‘no’ to. Or, very rarely. And they’re wealthy and entitled, and you’re in their personal space. You’re touching their face, touching their neck and so it can be a challenge at times because people take that as an opportunity to cross boundaries. That was a huge problem in my life.” Elizabeth has spent 40 years making actors up, primarily for sitcoms (e.g. Roseanne, The Ellen Show, Reba, The Larry Sanders Show, The Naked Truth, The Geena Davis Show, Three Sisters, Blossom, Nurses, Who’s the Boss?). And while she says most of the men who have sat in her makeup chair have been terrific, there are some men – and even a woman – she’ll never forget because they made things extremely uncomfortable and difficult for her. ELIZABETH: “You know, it’s progressive. People begin to harass you in a progressive way. It starts out light and joking, and then it segues slowly but surely into more pressure. And then when you turn them down, they start to get angry.” On one particular show, things got so bad that Elizabeth’s father came to a taping and sat in the makeup room while she made up the show’s star: ELIZABETH: “I was so bothered by this one person that I told him about it. And he came in like he was coming to see the show. It was an audience show. But my father was thinking if he introduced himself to this actor, that the actor would recognize that this is the daughter of another man and that he should treat me with respect.” Elizabeth and I also talk about the many positive aspects of her career, what she thinks the secret to her success is, as well as how her craft has changed over the years with the advent of high-definition television (HDTV). And be sure to check out the Bonus Material I’ve posted – a first for PIERSON TO PERSON. I recorded Elizabeth making me up as if I were going to appear on television (to better understand her craft) and, I have to admit, having all of one’s facial imperfections pointed out and covered up is a little humbling. Not that Elizabeth wasn’t nice about it. Quite the contrary. After all, she’s a pro.   Many thanks to Lee Rosevere for the opening and closing music featured in this episode royalty free through Creative Commons licensing: 1. "Southside" by Lee Rosevere - leerosevere.bandcamp.com 2. "As I Was Saying" by Lee Rosevere - leerosevere.bandcamp.com  

We all have numerous things we believe, but do we ever stop to think about where those beliefs came from and whether they serve us? In this fantastic interview with Elizabeth Rider we talk about beliefs, education, not quitting and the importance of ALLOWING things to happen with ease and flow rather than PUSHING things to happen.  Elizabeth Rider is a leading nutrition & whole living expert teaching women around the world how to become the healthiest, most successful people they know. In a world flooded with diet information, Elizabeth’s healthy recipes and straight-forward nutrition advice draw millions of inspired readers to her popular blog. Thousands have had success using her online programs, which include Clean Up Your Diet™, Purpose To Profit™ and The Wellness Business Bootcamp™. As host of Elizabeth Eats on Food Matters TV, Elizabeth is delightfully changing the way the world views healthy home cooking. She speaks on stages around the world and mentors scores of ambitious people each year to seek and live life on their own terms. As a Certified Holistic Health Coach (Integrative Nutrition) and accomplished online entrepreneur, cultivating a lifestyle of freedom and health is her religion. Elizabeth is a graduate of Cornell University’s Plant-Based Nutrition program, a TEDx speaker, and regular contributor to The Huffington Post. Her recipes have been featured on Shape.com, MSN, MindBodyGreen, Buzzfeed, Greatist and POPSUGAR among others. Nuggets of Wisdom from Elizabeth: "You are not your beliefs." "We pick up beliefs in life as we go." "When we believe something, we will subconsciously seek out facts to affirm our beliefs." "For a long time, even for me, I wasn't willing to believe that we are not our beliefs, that I am not my beliefs. And when I made that turning point, It was like WOW." "Because when we think that we are our beliefs, that'S where so much anxiety and discomfort and distress in our brains comes from." "The thing that people don't realize is that what you accrue along the way, you can't even think of right now. You do not even know what it's going to be." "I generally stay away from gluten and dairy. I feel like when I eat flour, it makes me feel really bloated. And when I eat dairy, it makes my skin break out." "My life's mission is in my own personal life is to bridge that gap between really loving my food and making sure that it is serving me and not harming me." "I really think that judgment is a mirror. And it's always a reflection of our beliefs." "One of the biggest tragedies in life is people not who would not take action over the fear of being judged when the judgement is actually just a mirror of how they felt about themselves. You can change those beliefs." Some of Elizabeth's Favorite Things: Personal habit: "Not quitting. Knowing that instead of quitting you just have to find a different way." Easy meal: "A smoothie. Red Thai Curry, easy to put together with coconut milk." Favorite kitchen gadget: "Le Creuset Signature Enameled Cast-Iron Dutch Oven" Elizabeth's Favorite Books: "Change Me Prayers: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Surrender Book by Tosha Silver" Best advice received: "I can't live if I care what other people think about me." Elizabeth's Happiness Formula: "Freedom plus allowing plus awareness plus ease." A Challenge from Elizabeth: "Write down your 5 biggest beliefs in life and understand where they came from. And then go read that post on the Oatmeal: The Backfire Effect (on the Oatmeal)" Resources Elizabeth Rider Le Creuset Signature Enameled Cast-Iron Dutch Oven Marie Forleo's B-school Usana Power of Habit Change Me Prayers: The Hidden Power of Spiritual Surrender Book by Tosha Silver Elizabeth Eats Elizabeth on Instagram The Oatmeal The Backfire Effect (on the Oatmeal) Vibrant Happy Women Facebook Group Subscribe to Vibrant Happy Women:  

My guest today is Elizabeth Scala, another healthcare podcaster, and the host of Your Next Shift.  Elizabeth is a one-woman media company. She's a nurse and the author of Nursing from Within and Stop Nurse Burnout. Elizabeth is also a frequent keynote speaker on the topic of nurse burnout. With her RN/FM co-hosts, Keith Carlson and Kevin Ross, founded the Pulse Media Network to help bring more healthcare podcasts to audiences.  Our conversation will focus on, you guessed it, nurse burnout and the stresses unique to the field.  Join us for our conversation on Get Social Health. Listen to the podcast or drop in at the time stamps below: 00:43  Introduction 03:42  Psych nurse stress 05:39  31 flavors of nursing 06:10  About your podcast, Next Shift 08:12  Connecting with your audience 10:14  No idea how to describe this question 10:53  Leading causes of nurse burnout 13:07  Is burnout unique to service jobs? 14:07  Family dynamics of patients 15:12  Your training regime 16:11  Self-regulating burnout 17:12  Burnout into bullying, or vice versa? 19:15  Caring for caregivers 20:05  "The Nurse Within" 21:22  Why you do what you do 22:12  Have e-records helped the nursing experience? 23:52  Nursing is the mother of invention 24:24  About your podcast friends... 26:49  Pulse media network 28:39  Podcast proponent 29:30  Getting in touch 30:45  End 31:22  Social Media Tip: Ahmanielle Hall 31:55 Closing Connect with Elizabeth You can find Elizabeth's website here:  elizabethscala.com You can also find Pulse Media Network Book Elizabeth to speak Nursing from Within - book Stop Nurse Burnout - book Art of Nursing Nurse's Week program Nursing from Within Facebook page  Connect on LinkedIn  RN/FM Radio 

Stand-up comedian and author Dave O'Neil talks to host Elizabeth Harris at his office at The Grandview Hotel, Fairfield, against a backdrop of motorcycles revving their engines, doors opening and closing, and phones ringing, about: His latest book, The Summer of '82, a tribute to post-VCE life in the 80s and the shenanigans of his youth How to get started as a stand-up comedian Tips for dealing with hecklers when you're performing His days performing in the band Captain Cocoa, the Devo "Energy Dome" train encounter, and how he feels about being recognized in public His upcoming TV show. Find out more about Dave's work at DaveONeil.com.au. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes or Spotify, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. Today I’m thrilled to introduce one of the funniest and most entertaining men I’ve ever had the pleasure to meet – Dave O’Neil. Dave: Gee, that’s a big introduction. I’ve met funnier. Elizabeth: There’s more Dave. Dave O’Neil has been in the business of comedy for 20 years, and is one of Australia’s most recognizable stand-up comics, having put in 15 Melbourne international comedy festivals and dozens of comedy clubs nationally. On screen you will have seen Dave as Team Captain in the ABC TV comedy quiz show Tractor Monkeys, as well as dishing out life advice in The Agony of Life, The Agony of Modern Manners, The Agony of The Mind, Can of Worms, plus messing about on Adam Hills In GorDave Street Tonight and Good News Week. He is probably most well-known for the honour of being the guest with the most appearances (over 50) on ABC TV’s ever popular Spicks & Specks. Dave O’Neil, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave: Welcome. Thank you. Lovely to be here. Pleasure to be called a writer, as opposed to a comedian. Elizabeth: Well, isn’t this your fifth book? Dave: Yeah yeah, two were kids’ books. My partner and I did them in Australia before we had kids. Elizabeth: When you had more time. Dave: We had more time, that’s right. And one’s called Lies That Parents Tell You, so I wouldn’t write that now. My daughter sits up in bed reading it and quotes it back to me. Elizabeth: How old is she? Dave: Ten. Yes, it’s tough. Elizabeth: I was at Kaz Cooke’s book launch about … Dave: On girl power? Yeah, she’s great. I’ve got to buy that book! Elizabeth: So Dave, you’ve been through so much in your career, but today I want to concentrate on your hilarious book, The Summer of ’82. Dave: Sure. Elizabeth: It’s a real feel-good book, and you cover some intense themes. Discipline. Masculinity. Sexuality. Mateship. Stalking. Dave: Stalking – that’s right. I followed a girl in Mildura. Back then it wasn’t known as “stalking”; it was known as “unrequited love”. Sexuality – there’s not much sexuality going on in there, I can tell you that. There’s a lack of activity in that department, that’s for sure. Elizabeth: You were talking about how you were giving advice to 17-year-old virgins. Dave: That’s right. A little girl at school would ask me for romance advice. I was like, that’s not who you go to for romance advice. You see, I was a nice guy, so the girls talked to me. Elizabeth: We like nice guys. So getting back to this book: What inspired you to write it, and what’s your favourite memory from summer? Dave: I always wanted to write a memoir from the 80s, and I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. I saw that TV show This is England on SBS, about the young guys growing up in the Housing Commission area, and I thought I’ve got to write something like that, because that’s in my era. But their show ended with incest and murder, whereas that never happened to me, so I thought why not write a more positive recollection of that time. So I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. And then my son started high school, and so you go to the local high school and it brought back all these memories from when I was in high school. Elizabeth: At Mitcham High? Dave: I went to Mitcham High, yeah. Back then we had a choice of the tech or the high school, and if you were Catholic, you went to Catholic school. We weren’t Catholic. So now, and I’m talking about the government schools, not the private schools – you can choose from 3 or 4 around here, so you go to this school or that school, and they’re all the same basically. They haven’t changed much since 1982. They look the same. You’ve got the oval, the canteen, big classrooms, kids sitting around, so they haven’t changed at all, so I thought I should write that book again. It brought back all those memories, and so my son started school, and that’s why I did it. That’s why. Elizabeth: Now we know. Dave: It’s just something to do. As comedians, we’ve got to have something to do, apart from studio gigs. Elizabeth: That’s good. So talking a bit about your children, you mentioned your parents Kev and Joyce – “Joyce the Voice”. Dave: Yep, “Joyce the Voice”. Elizabeth: And what I’m wondering now is, are you parenting your children differently from how you were parented then? Dave: Definitely, definitely. We got hit for a start. Elizabeth: What with? Dave: A belt. So Kev would get very angry – it’s in the book – he would get very angry, come running in in a singlet, trying to hide his nether regions, swinging a belt above his head, and whack us in the ... Elizabeth: My dad had a strap up on the fridge. I think we had a very similar upbringing. Dave: I don’t hit my children, but obviously parenting your kids back then was a bit easier, because you’d just say “I’ll hit you”, and that was a full stop to the conversation, whereas all I can do is yell at them. Elizabeth: How about cracking some jokes – does that work? Dave:  Yeah, crack some jokes, try and alleviate the situation, but my daughter in particular doesn’t like that. Elizabeth: Is that because she’s heard them all before? Dave: Yeah, she’s heard them all before. “It’s not funny Dad!” My mum and dad were pretty involved with us. My dad was a Scout leader and staff, so we spent a fair bit of time with him. He was a good role model, and Joyce was introvertly involved in our lives. But he’s even more involved these days – at school pickup and all that. There’s a lot more dads involved now. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic, so you’ve got that support as well. When we met at your book launch, you told me that you only know comedians. Dave: It’s true. I don’t know any writers really. Elizabeth: Well, you know me. Dave: I know you. And I know Arnold ... who lives around here, who wrote Scheherezade Cafe. He's famous! (Ed: Cafe Scheherazade by Arnold Zable) Elizabeth: Maybe you can introduce me to Arnold. Is that like Arnold on Happy Days? Dave: (Laughs) He’s had a book out called Fido – the Box of the Fido. Elizabeth: I can’t believe I made Dave O’Neil laugh. Dave:  So I see him on the street here, in Fairfield, and I talk to him about writing and stuff. Elizabeth: That brings me to something about fame. You’re a very famous star. Dave: Not that famous. Elizabeth: Well, we think you are. So, what we want to know is, do you like being recognized when you’re out and about, or does fame have a downside? Dave: No, my level of fame is pretty small, so people like Dave Hughes or Glenn Robbins, or Carl Barron for instance – they can get hassled all the time. Elizabeth: Well, in my network, I have a number of people who would love to meet you. Dave: Really? Well, tell ’em I’m around. Elizabeth: And they’re going to be really disappointed that here we are, at the Grandview in Fairfield – it’s a stunning place, gorgeous building, lovely people. Dave: They’re nice people here. Elizabeth: Michael? Dave:  Michael and Noah, yep. Elizabeth: Jenny? Dave: Michael, Noah and Jenny – they’re all the higher level management here. Elizabeth: They are, and they made me feel very, very welcome. Made me a coffee. Smiled and when I offered to pay, wouldn’t take my money. It’s fantastic! Dave: Ah that’s good. I didn’t tell them – you tell someone and they pass it on. It’s all on my tab, probably. My level of fame is not that high. Occasionally when you go interstate – the more you go interstate like Queensland – people get excited about you, but certainly around Fairfield Road, no one cares about you. Elizabeth: Well, they could have chimed some…”Captain Cocoa”… Dave:  What, with the band? That’s right. Well when the band broke up, someone did say, “How is Dave O’Neil going to be famous now?” Ambition for fame… Elizabeth: Let’s stop right there. Was it to meet girls? Dave: Probably. Definitely not music. We went and saw bands, and just thought: Why can’t we be in a band? And the guy at high school was … famous 80s band … “hands up in the air”…I didn’t see it. And so we thought, that’s the way to meet girls, get up on stage. Elizabeth: Did it work? Dave: Well, I met Sonia, who…but anyway, definitely does work. Being in a band definitely does give you the attention you want as a teenager. We used to play at Catholic girls’ schools …dances …You didn’t have to be good; we weren’t good musicians. Elizabeth: I want to talk about Sonia. You did invest a lot of time and you write about that in your great book. Then you say you end up having a better relationship with her younger brother. Dave:  Well, that’s right. What happened was that I hitchhiked to Mildura to see her on New Year’s Eve to surprise her. And she was surprised, particularly her dad. And they gave me a lift to the caravan park where I stayed for New Year’s Eve. And the younger brother – I can’t remember his name – he was a great kid, and so we got on really well. He’s probably a year, two years younger than me. Was it Shane – Shane? So we ended up hanging out together. Elizabeth: Was it Malcolm? Dave:  Malcolm, that’s right. And we got on really well, whereas Sonia and me didn’t get on well. Elizabeth: Well, that might have something to do with the boyfriend too. Dave: She had a boyfriend who I also got on well with. Probably married, those guys. So, yeah, good times. Elizabeth: So getting back to that, I just want to know, for all those young men who think they’ll never get a date, much less have a child: you’ve had three, haven’t you? Dave: Yes. Elizabeth: What dating advice can you offer? Dave:  Dating advice? That’s a good one. It’s been so long since I’ve gone on a date…not since the 80s. Surprise question – dating advice. Ask someone out – you know a good thing is to ask someone out for a drink or for something during the day. That’s what I read on some dating websites. Ask someone out during the day where there’s no pressure. At night I think there’s a fair bit of pressure. I reckon ask them out for a drink during the day or late afternoon. Elizabeth: What about a play date? Dave: Well, if you’re parents, definitely. Elizabeth: That seems to work well. Dave: Yeah, I think in our age group - I Dave’t know how old you are, but I’m middle-aged – there’s definitely a bit of that going on with divorce and separated parents. And fair enough. Elizabeth: And there’s a really good place to go in St Kilda called St Kilda Adventure Playground. Dave: Oh, I’ve never been there! Elizabeth: It’s great. Dave: That’s great. Elizabeth: And there’s a fellow who runs it – he’s a youth worker but he’s also a musician. Adrian Thomas. Check him out – he’s fantastic. So what do you like to do in your spare time? Dave: I like to watch TV. Elizabeth: Yourself perhaps? Dave: Not myself. I don’t like watching myself. I did a spot on one of those comedy galas this year. I hadn’t seen it; I watched it, I thought it was pretty good. I’m pretty happy … I was judge of myself. Elizabeth: Of course it’s good. Dave: What happened is…so I spend a lot of time with 3 children. Once I get them to bed at night, or if I’m home during the day, I do like to watch a bit of TV. And I watch a mixture of – I watch a few movies but more serious these days. There’s a mixture of comedies and drama. I do like a good drama, you know like Vikings or something like that. Elizabeth: I’m a fan of Doc Martin myself because I’m a nurse. Dave: Oh ya Doc Martin. Is he Aspergers? Yeah, must be Aspergers. I’ve been watching … the comedy show … it’s quite funny … so I watch that, get some laughs out of that. What else have I been taping…oh yeah…West World on Foxtel. Elizabeth: Oh yes. More fun to watch yourself, you know. Dave: Watch yourself? Yeah, no thanks. Elizabeth: What I’d love you to do is share an excerpt from your great book. Dave: Sure. Do you want me to read it to you or tell you it? Elizabeth: Whatever works for you. Dave: I’ll tell you a story. This is the story of The Bomb, the laying of The Bomb. Basically, what happened was we finished school and we went home. No, we went and registered for the dole, and then we went home. Elizabeth: As we all did. Dave: And my kids said to me, “How did you know how to make bombs before the internet?” Well, we didn’t need the internet. We had this chap called Brian every night, 6 o’clock. He used to tell us everything we needed to know on the Channel 9 news every night. Elizabeth: Can you sing the song? Dave: (Sings) “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so I know everything I need to know, cos Brian told me so.” Elizabeth: Great tone. Dave: Great tone, yeah, I wasn’t just a comedian; I was a singer. So you can imagine these four teenage boys and Mum and Dad, and we couldn’t see the TV – Dad was the only one who could see the TV – we could hear it. He positioned himself in the chair that sits there. So we could hear it. We heard this Brian guy say: “Two boys were arrested today in suburban Adelaide for making homemade bombs.” We were like, oh my God, you could hear a pin drop in the house. Then he told us how to make it, by using chlorine and brake fuel. We were looking at each other, like, we’ve got chlorine – we’ve got a pool – and we’ve got brake fluid; Dad’s a Trades teacher. “So can we please be excused from the table, Dad?” Within 10 minutes we were making bombs. So the next day we got my mates together and we made – we decided to up the ante and make some really big bombs. And we made this great bomb, but we didn’t want to throw it; we were gutless like any terrorist organization, so we recruited younger, stupider people like Phil, who lived in the house backing here on the paddock. He stuck his head over and said, “What are yous guys doing?” So we got him to throw the bomb, and he threw it. And it bounced – boom, boom – and it sat there, and then it went BANG! Real loud explosion, the biggest one we’d made. It showered us with dirt, and we were all laughing, and the neighbours came out. An old lady said, “It shook the foundations of my chook shed!” And we’re like “It works!” And then the cops turned up. We heard it. The car screeched up, the doors go, a cop pulls out, and we recognized him – he went to our high school, he was one of my Dad’s Scouts from his Scout trips – obviously he was in his twenties now. Darren, his name was. And he gets out, and it was the easiest case he’d ever solved. He looked at the bomb, then he looked at our house, and he was like “Oh yeah, case solved.” And then Dad had rocked up. Dad thought Darren had just dropped in to see his former Scout leader, and Dad goes up to him and goes, “G’day Darren, how are you?” And Darren goes, “Ah, this is no social visit Kevin. Do you recognize these containers?” “Yeah, they are my sons’, sitting in the garage.” And we were like, “Oh no…” So we went to the police station. And the bomb expert from India was on the site, and he couldn’t work out what was in the bombs. And he said, “What’s in the bombs?” “Chlorine and brake fluid.” And he’s like “How’d you know how to do that?” And we went, “Brian told me.” “RIGHT, WHO’S BRIAN?!” So we sang: “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so”. I love that story. Elizabeth: Such a great tune, isn’t it. Dave: Yeah, it’s a great tune, and they used it in Sydney too, you know. Brian Henderson. Value for money. That’s in the book – lots of detail about the 70s and 80s in The Summer of ’82. Elizabeth: See, that crime history continued because being from a family of four boys … your brother Mark captured my attention. Dave:  Yeah Mark’s quite a character in the book. That’s what my mum said the other day: “You were the worst, and now you’re the best.” He’s very good with Mum and Dad. Elizabeth:  He was a slow starter. Dave: He was a slow starter, classic middle child out of four boys, and he was very naughty. Got in trouble a lot with the police and he got kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab. He was meant to be getting changed for Oklahoma I think it was, and he set fire to the lab, and got kicked out. Elizabeth: See, I’d actually like to read this – I know you don’t like to, but I do. Dave:  Go on. Elizabeth: Page 88 – you write: “We’re talking about a kid who’s kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab while he was meant to be getting changed for his part in the school musical. Hmm, there’s young Mark in the lab where he’s supposed to be putting on his farmer’s overalls to sing in Oklahoma. Wait! The chemicals are too tempting, so it’s time for a quick experiment. Va-voom! Up in flames the lab goes.” See, I have a brother who is an illustrator. His name is Bernie Harris, and he’s going to illustrate my second children’s book which will be out next year. But he’s similar to Mark in that he used to enjoy lighting the Bunsen burners in the chemistry lab. Dave:  Ah yeah, they’ve still got Bunsen burners too. Yeah, Mark was very naughty. Elizabeth: So the difference between our brothers was that he wasn’t caught. Dave:  Yeah, right, Mark was caught. Elizabeth: But you had your own way of managing Mark when your parents were away. Do you call it “MYOB Night” or “M.Y.O.B. Night”? Dave: Oh. Make-Your-Own? Make-Your-Own. Elizabeth: You were very inventive Dave, and strategic in managing your brother. Dave: Yeah, he was put in charge of us when Mum and Dad went on holidays, and at that stage he was an apprentice at Telstra. And so he would invite his mates over for a card night. And I was working in a factory and I had to get up early. And he was like … Elizabeth: You get Endangerment, don’t you? Dave: Yeah, I was working in a factory and you look at the pay packet and we got Heat Allowance and Dust Allowance. It wasn’t a great job but it was certainly a wakeup call. If I’d done the job at the start of Year 12, I probably would have studied more, I think. Should have done that. But Mark … Elizabeth: There was something about connectors and fuses, I think. Dave: Ah yeah. He invited his mates over for cards and they were having this big party, and I pulled the fuse out of the fuse box, threw it out on the lawn, and went back to bed. And the music went (mimics sound of music dying out suddenly)… And he blamed the neighbor of course. So I think when he read the book, he found out it was me. Elizabeth: It was brilliant. So that job, crawling through those … crawling through those tunnels. And the hot dog … Dave: Hot dog shop. Elizabeth: With Cindy. Dave: With Cindy. So I got a job in a hot dog shop: Alecto Hot Dogs on Toorak Road. People from Melbourne may remember. Elizabeth: Sorry I don’t remember. Dave: You don’t remember Alecto Hot Dogs ’92? Yum. So I worked at Alecto Hot Dogs with a girl named Cindy, whom I eventually went out with. She was dressed up like Boy George or Hazie Fantazie and she had all these outrageous outfits. Turned out she was from Mitcham where I lived; I’d just never met her. She was a Catholic and I was Protestant. Different sides of the railway track. So that was very exciting. But I eventually got sacked from the hot dog shop because the owner accused me of stealing the rolls and selling them to an opposition shop, when in fact I was just eating them. Elizabeth: Was there proof of that? Dave: Yeah, I was eating them. But then my twin brother was also working there – I have a twin – and he got a full-time job so I just took his job, the part-time job, and kept turning up as him. Elizabeth: Are you identical? Dave: Yeah. And they’d say “Didn’t I sack you?” And I’d say “No, that’s my brother.” He’d probably be 20 kilos lighter than me now. He lives in Switzerland; he works for Red Cross. He’s the good twin; I’m the bad twin. He’s doing good stuff. Elizabeth: The ability to make people laugh is such a gift, and not everybody can do it. Dave: Not everybody can do it. It takes practice. Eizabeth: So tell me about that. Dave: Making people laugh? When I was at school, I was pretty funny, and when I was at uni and stuff, a few girls said “You should be a stand-up comedian – you’re quite funny.” Now when you’re in your twenties and girls say that, that’s a call actually. Elizabeth: Means something, doesn’t it. Dave: Yeah it’s a call actually. You should do it. And so I always wanted to do it; I didn’t know it was a job. I had no idea, especially in the 70s – comedy wasn’t prevalent, it was fringe. There are a few comedy clubs that have started, but maybe one work function with comedians. We’ve seen comedians on Scout camps; we used to have comedians turn up to do gigs on Scout camps. So it was definitely something I wanted to do; I just didn’t know how to do it. I thought it was something too out of my reach, but turned out anyone could do it, if you wanted. Elizabeth: For those that want to launch their comedic careers, is it really the hard slog of gigs and being heckled? And if so, what’s the best way of dealing with the heckling? Dave: Well I don’t get heckled much anymore, but certainly when you start out, and you’ve got to do a lot of bad gigs – they call them “Open Mic Nights “. Anyone can get up and do it – and if you have an inkling, there’s plenty of them around now, more so than when I started. I would advise people to go and have a look first, and then approach the person running the night and ask to go on the next week and just jump up – write some stuff down and jump up and do it. The hecklers? Best thing to do with hecklers: repeat what they say. So they say: “You’re a fat idiot.” And you say “What did you say, mate? I’m a fat idiot?” Which lets everyone in the room hear what they say. Because a lot of hecklers do it so no one else can hear what they say, especially in a big room. “You’re a blah-blah.” “Oh really, mate.” And so you repeat what they say, and then you think of something really quick to say back. It doesn’t even have to be that funny; it just has to be quick. I can’t think of any Elizabeth: On the front cover of this great book, you are pictured wearing a Devo Energy Dome, Dave. Can you explain the impact it had in your life, and what the proclamation “Are We Not Men?” means? Dave: “We are Devo”. I don’t know what it means – just something they say in one of their songs – album name. Elizabeth:What it means more so on the train? Dave: Oh on the train! We went and saw Devo. They had a 9-day tour; they had a few No. 1 hits in Australia. Elizabeth: What were they? Dave:  “Whip It”. “Girl U Want”. Elizabeth: You’re not going to sing to me. Dave:  No. “Whip It cracked that whip…one sat on the greenhouse tree…” Elizabeth: Did you bring your guitar? Dave: No. I play the bass. Anyway, so we went and watched Devo. It was a great night and we were all dressed up in our best; we were slightly alternative kids. Elizabeth: Does that mean you used to wear makeup? Dave: No, I didn’t wear makeup, but I had makeup on that night because I’d been rehearsing for The Game Show, which is a TV show. They’re really cool people…and so we dressed up in our best trendy gear: nice jeans and lemon vintage jumpers. Elizabeth: Lemon. Dave: Lemon vintage; might have had a pink one if someone was in a brave mood. Then we had these homemade Devo hats, these red flower pots Mum had made. Elizabeth: Joyce made them! Dave:  Joyce made them. Crafty. And so we were on the train. We were on a high, singing these Devo songs. Unfortunately for us, The Angels and Rose Tattoo were playing the Myer Music Bowl that night, and all their fans had gone on to Richmond, so this was a classic case of “last train out”. Elizabeth: For those that weren’t kids in the 80s, tell me about The Angels and Rose Tattoo and Henry Anderson. Dave: Yeah, bald-headed guy, tattoos. They’re basically hard rock; they’re a great band. They have fans who are hardcore bogans, so guys from the outer suburbs in mullets, stretch jeans, moccasins – tough guys. Elizabeth: What sort of suburb are we talking about? Dave:  We’re talking about Moroolbark, Lilydale, Ringwood. I grew up in Mitcham – there are plenty of them in Mitcham, so they would get on the train and they would look at us and be like, “What the … who are these guys?” And so we were like their enemy. And so one of them came over and he didn’t know where to start, so he started at the shoes. “Where did you get your shoes from?” And I’m like “The shoe shop.” And he’s like “No, you got them from the op shop.” Like that was an insult. I wanted to ask “Where did you get your language from? Your nan’s wardrobe?” But I didn’t say that. I was hoping my Energy Dome would transform itself and he would get picked up and thrown out of the window. Elizabeth: But it didn’t work. Dave:  It didn’t work. And he’s like “Do you have makeup on?” And I went “Why would I have makeup on?” I did have makeup on. So I had come from The Game Show rehearsal and I did have foundation and lipstick on, and I had forgotten to take it off. And he goes “I’m going to bash you!” And at that point in the book – when I do it live, it’s different – … came through the carriage. He was the tough guy from high school – he’s now a lawyer – and he came through the carriage, and he was a big Greek guy, and he was a big Devo fan so we got on very well. And he was like “What are you…?” and he pushes this guy aside – “What are you doing to him?” And then these guys “Yeah, nah, nah…” and then we pull up at the station. They pull the door open and he fell out on the wrong side of the track - the tough guy. Classic tough guy move – they pull the door when they’re not meant to, and then jump out. He jumped out on the wrong side of the tracks and fell on the tracks so all his mates laughed: “Yer, Gary!” Elizabeth: Oh, his name was Gary. Dave:  Yeah, Gary, classic name. And then everyone was like “Are we not men?” And then we were like “Yeah, we are Devo!” and we were chanting on the train. Good times. Elizabeth: Well, the whole book’s great, cause I’ve read it cover to cover. Dave:  Oh, good on you. You’re the only one. Elizabeth: No, I’m sure many, many people will be reading it, especially after our podcast goes live. Dave: Cool. Elizabeth: No, truly. What’s your next project, Dave? Dave:  I’ve written a TV show that I’m going to film soon. I’m just doing a pilot though; it’s based on my life as a stand-up and dad, so we’re going to film it soon, in December. Elizabeth: Can you talk about the people involved in it? Dave:  Oh yes of course, it’s based on my life as a comic, so I play myself. Glenn Robbins is in the first episode - he plays himself, because I’m always trying to get him to do charity gigs. He plays himself. Brendan Fevola - he plays himself. Well, it’s all based on an incident where I did a football club gig 15 years ago, where I insulted … I didn’t know Lance Whitnall - Carlton legend – came from that club – that was his original … and his mum was there when I made it. So I’m using Brendan Fevola in this. I’m too scared to ring Lance Whitnall, let’s be honest. So I know Brendan Fevola and I rang him, and he’s like “Yeah, yeah, no worries!” So that’s going to be out next year. I’m also working on a comic novel – I’ve written a chapter of a comic novel. I had no plans to do it at all, but I got this idea, so I started writing it, and I think it’s pretty funny. Elizabeth:  Of course it’s funny – it’s you. What else would it be? Dave:  And again it’s a satire based on the entertainment industry. Elizabeth:  That would be interesting, and funny. Dave:  I’ve got to change everyone’s name. Elizabeth: Are these people going to be recognizable? Dave:  Yes. Elizabeth: Of course they are. (Laughter) Dave:   There’s an amalgamation of people in there – part me, and other people, you know. Elizabeth:  Composite characters. Dave: Composite characters, so you don’t get sued. Elizabeth: So do you have a website or blog where my listeners can find out more about your work? Dave: Yes. Just go to my Facebook page. I update my Facebook page a lot. It’s “Dave O’Neil”. But if you just go to my website – dave-o-neil-dot-com-dot-au - there’s a link to my Facebook page. I don’t update my website that much, but I do update Facebook a lot because it’s so easy. I’ve got a public page, like a fan page. I don’t spend any time on my personal page at all. Elizabeth: So Dave, this is a signature question I ask all my guests because of my book, Chantelle’s Wish: What do you wish for, for the world … Dave:  World peace. Elizabeth:  … and most importantly, for yourself? We’ll start with you. Dave:  For the world? Well, as Rodney King once said, why can’t we all just get along? Elizabeth: Good point. Dave: That’ll be good, if everyone got along. I don’t see wars stopping, but if we just looked after the – I saw this great documentary about astronauts, and this astronaut, when he was up in space, he looked at the earth and he said, “It’s like an oasis, and we’re killing it.” So, interesting from an astronaut, ‘cause they’re like military guys, you know what I mean? So if we could look after the planet, that would be good, but I don’t know what I can do, you know. I do the occasional benefit. Elizabeth: I was going to say you mentioned fundraising; let’s talk about that. Dave: More of my benefits are for schools - local schools and kinders, that’s what I do, just because I’m in that world. Elizabeth:  They must love that, though. That really helps them. Dave:  I do benefits, and I’ll tell you what, if the benefit’s no good, I just get up on stage and I say: ‘I’m here to support the cause. See you later!” Some of the people have benefits in bars, and people are talking and not listening, and I think, “What’s the point?” Elizabeth: Well, I’d like to invite you to help us out. Pat Guest – he’s a children’s author, and he has a son, Noah, who has Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy, and we are creating an event where Rosalie Ham, author of The Dressmaker, will be there. Dave:  Oh wow. Elizabeth: She’s got a book out called There Should Be More Dancing. Aric Yegudkin and his wife Masha will be dancing, so he would like to do a bit of … Dave:  Sure. Elizabeth:  And all the donations will go to Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy to help those kids, because unfortunately that is terminal. Dave: Alright. Elizabeth: And I’ve nursed a couple of those children, so it’s … Dave: Full on. Elizabeth: It is full on. Dave: Yeah, I can help with that. Elizabeth: Thank you. So thank you Dave O’Neil. Dave:  Thank you for having me. Elizabeth:  It’s been an absolute delight. Dave O’Neil, thank you very much for guesting on Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave:  Thank you. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Patrick Guest is an Australian children's author, Olympic physiotherapist, and father of three. He is most noted for his children's books That's What Wings Are For - dedicated to children with Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, and their parents, and The Ricker Racker Club, written for his boys when their baby sister joined the family. Find out more about Patrick's work at PatrickGuest.com.au. What you'll learn: 1. What Patrick's first career was, and why he gave it up for writing.2. The true story that inspired Patrick to write That's What Wings Are For.3. How The Ricker Racker Club is being used to touch and inspire school children in Melbourne, Australia. 4. What success means to him. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with a global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce children’s author Patrick Guest (PG) – father of three, Olympic physiotherapist, children’s author. Patrick Guest – born into an ever loving, ever growing family, 7 siblings, in the beachside suburb of Seaford, Melbourne, Australia. Patrick was blessed with all the things that make a childhood magical – plenty of family, friends and freedom to explore this wonderful world. An assortment of careers along the way – cobbler, elephant washer, failed accountant, anatomy demonstrator at Monash Uni, national team physio for Mozambique. Little wonder he’s been dubbed the Forrest Gump of Frankston. Adventures and stories seem to follow him around and now he’s writing them down. 5 books, (signed with a little hair) in the past 2 years, many more in the pipeline. Patrick Guest, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Patrick: Great to be here, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Great to have you here, Patrick, on this lovely sunny day in Melbourne, believe it or not, we’ve got the sun. Patrick, we recently discovered we attended the same secondary college.  Patrick: We did. Elizabeth: I had to smile when I read you initially became an accountant. Please tell my listeners about that transgression - and how you escaped. Patrick: Ah, the transgression. Let’s start with that. Look. Fear, insecurity, there was a recession kicking in. But really I think, as a 17-year-old, having to work out what subjects to choose, I didn’t know how to make that decision at 17. Elizabeth: So you did Economics … is that right? Patrick: Economics, Accounting, Legal Studies, Maths. I was really probably inspired at that time by my favourite TV show, Family Ties – Michael J. Fox. Elizabeth: Wasn’t he great? He’s great. Still. Patrick: At the time, I think back now – what a dork he was – it probably says a lot about what a dork I was and still am. I thought he was cool. Elizabeth: He was funny, and you’re funny. Patrick: He was cool, and I thought “Who do I want to be like?”, and I thought “Michael J. Fox”. I went down the corporate path, which was a terrible decision. I don’t regret it – I made some friends for life, and I realized early on that money doesn’t make you happy. Elizabeth: It’s such an important lesson at that age, isn’t it, cause many people learn that quite late, if at all. Patrick: Yeah, so that’s something that has stayed with me, and I’m really grateful. Elizabeth: Was there a pivotal moment when you realized “This accounting thing is just not me”? Was there an incident? Patrick: There was. Elizabeth: Can you share that, or is that private? Patrick: No, no, let’s share this. It’s all about sharing in this session. So I’m walking down Flinders St Station, and I’m walking down in my suit and tie, down the ramp… Elizabeth: How old were you at the time? Patrick: It would have been in my first year out of graduation, maybe 22 or something. 21, 22. Walking down the ramp, with cattle class, just walking down, we were all off to work. Against the flow, this lady came through the crowd and just gently put her hand on me and said, “Smile!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) I promise you it wasn’t me. Patrick: She just said “Smile” and I’m walking down – I must have looked so miserable. Elizabeth: Was she an angel or a real person? Patrick: I don’t know. But I hear where you’re coming from there, because from that moment – and I blame Banjo Patterson – and maybe my dad for putting me onto Banjo. Elizabeth: Why? It’s good to blame other people, isn’t it? Patrick: My favourite Australian poem would be The Great Clancy of the Great Overflow… Elizabeth: Oh wonderful. Patrick: …And where Banjo writes: And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me   As they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy,    For townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste.   So that poem was just ringing in my ears as I was off to the office sitting there, and from that moment I had come to the end of my fancy – I had a lot to change with Clancy. But I doubt he’d suit the office, Clancy of the Overflow. And for someone who had had that instilled in him, the spirit of adventure at a very young age, and parents – wonderful parents that had fostered that– and here I am in this shoebox, little partitioned office thing, and it just wasn’t for me. Elizabeth: Soul-destroying. Patrick: Soul-destroying. For some people it isn’t, and some of my best friends have continued along that path, and it’s a great path for them, but for me it wasn’t. Elizabeth: We need everybody, don’t we, the array of professions and tradespeople, everybody to do their bit. But you had much more important things in store, Patrick. Which brings me to – our school was really quite traditional in lots of ways, being a Catholic coed college, with all the gender bias that goes with that. And I remember going back to Economics, and I remember being one of the few girls in Chemistry and Economics, because it was always the boys who were going to be the accountants, and the girls were going to be teachers or nurses. And in fact I did go on to be a nurse, but I was very happy to do that. So to me in our school, there was a real gender bias. And you address this in your fantastic book, The Ricker Racker Club. Can you tell us more about this great book please? Patrick: The Ricker Racker Club is based on a real club, invented by real people: my two boys, Noah and Reuben. So Noah and Reuben were roughly 4 and 3 at the time when the Ricker Racker Club was formed. And there was one hard and fast rule: No Girls. (Laughter) There were a few other rules: do something incredibly brave, do something incredibly kind, but the real rock-solid rule was No Girls. And then what happened… Elizabeth: I’m sure that’s changed now. Patrick: …They had themselves a sister, little Gracie. Gracie was born, and really the story of The Ricker Racker Club is what happened next after Gracie. Now Gracie is perfectly named. She is pure grace, she is pure joy. She does have an intellectual disability, and her capacity for joy is extraordinary. And she would – as happens in the book – walk up to the wolf next door and give the wolf a big hug. Her courage, her kindness, her unique joy, won the boys over very quickly. They won us all over, and the story sprung from there. Really, it’s a celebration of the joys of being a kid, and the innocence of these rules. They’re not coming from a nasty place, these rules – just boys being boys. But then, just the power of kindness, if there’s one thing that runs through all my books, it’s the power of kindness… Elizabeth: Yes, definitely. Patrick: …to change hearts. So that’s how that happened. And really The Ricker Racker Club is about a father saying to his two sons, “Be good to your sister.” Elizabeth: And you do it so well, Patrick. Patrick: And so it’s done really well. Elizabeth: When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Patrick: From the moment I could write. So I started very young. I do remember a series, ‘Powerful Patrick’. And I must have been about 5 or 6. I was doing the pictures back then and I was stapling them together, making these little books. And I’m sure Mum and Dad delighted in them. But I’m not sure anyone else did. Elizabeth: Have you still got them? Patrick: I haven’t been able to find them. Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: I hope I can find them one day. Mum was always a little bit of a hoarder, so it’ll be somewhere in the house. They’re still in the same place I grew up in, so they’ll be somewhere in that house. So I’ve been a natural storyteller my whole life. The vehicle for that telling a story was just verbal stories and emails and love letters to Lisa my wife … I’ve always found a way to put things on paper. But certainly through the barren accounting years, then really trying to work out where my lane was that had been lying dormant, and then the birth of Noah – my first son, Noah – came a flood of stories and the desire to get these things down on paper. The rest is history. Elizabeth: What was it particularly about that event - the birth of Noah – that opened the floodgates, so to speak? Patrick: Well the birth itself…even before the birth I was starting to work on a book. But it’s, I think it’s just this natural, just as we have a desire to breathe, have food and water, a desire to be heard and understood, and then as a parent, it’s just this innate desire to share stories and to bond through stories. Elizabeth: Legacy. Patrick: Legacy. What my dad did was the same with me. My grandfather – I vividly remember my grandfather declaring over me that “You’re going to be an author one day.” Elizabeth: Oh wow. Did he write? Patrick: My grandfather, no. It was more my grandmother – she was a gifted storyteller. She kissed the Blarney Stone a few times, Ma, and... So it’s flowed through, that Blarney Stone – the kissing of the Blarney Stone gift has been passed through, through Grandmother to my dad. Elizabeth: We have a similar heritage then. Patrick There you go. And I can see it in my kids as well. Noah and Reuben, they love telling stories and they love hearing stories. So it’s been passed on for sure. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic. Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly, how to keep going? Patrick: How to get started… I can only speak, maybe quote Oscar Wilde: “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” So I can only speak from the authority of my own experience. I don’t have a technique or a tactic or a ritual that I go through. I pray. I pray, and one thing that I’ll say to people when asked this question – again I don’t want to get too preachy here – but if you want to get creative, it helps to get in touch with your Creator. That’s all I can say. That might be a bit controversial but for some ears, but that’s what works for me. I don’t get on my knees and say “God, give me another book!” Elizabeth: “Give me a bestseller or a …” Patrick: “Give me a bestseller!” What I actually do is I surrender my agenda. Elizabeth: So ego is left aside. Patrick: Ego is left aside, and any preconceived ideas are left aside. So I’m not sitting there going “Give me inspiration”. I’m giving myself out, and saying “Take away”. Elizabeth: Use me, as a conduit. Patrick: “Use me”, and if that’s to be the best barista in Mornington, or go back to my cobbling beginnings, or elephant-washing beginnings, so be it. So most of – no, really all of – my flashes of inspiration you could say… There’s that great poem by Rumi, Listening, where he says, “When that voice speaks, may I sell my tongue and buy a thousand ears.” So when I’m hearing that voice, that is always followed by a period of prayerfulness or meditation which just opens up that creativity. Sounds easy. I know when I hear that voice, and I sell my tongue, I know that there’s a double emotion. Joy, and dread. Because I know that I’m in for some hard work. Elizabeth: ‘Cause writing can be hard work, can’t it. And the discipline that’s required – and you know you may not particularly feel like writing that day – but you have to put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Patrick: Yes, so back to the question, which was “How do we keep going?” How do we start? For me, I don’t really start until I’ve heard the voice, I’ve heard that voice, I’ve heard that spark of inspiration. How do I keep going? I know that I won’t have peace until it’s done. So I’m listening to that voice but I also know that it’s a collaboration after that. So I’m seeking opportunities to get it on paper or get it onto the computer. And they are taken in the busyness of my life with 3 young kids and a fulltime job as a physio. I have to be creative just to find that time. So often it’s my wonderful patients – patient patients – lying on the physio plinth – and I’ll just seek an opportunity to say, “Now that you’ve got all those needles all over you, there’s no way to run out of here. Would you mind listening to my latest? What do you think of it?” Elizabeth: Do they come back for another appointment after that, Patrick? Patrick: Normally they do. I don’t think I’ve managed to scare anyone off yet. Elizabeth: I might need to book for a session. Do I have to have a needle? Patrick: Not always, but it does – has that influence on my clinical judgment. Might be, if I’m honest. But I call it ‘bibliotherapy’. That works well, so I’m looking for opportunity. Sometimes I’ll pull the car over and send myself a text message for a sentence. Or middle of the night, off to the computer, or scribbling in bed on a bit of paper. I don’t have a routine about how to get these things down. Elizabeth: 2 a.m. is a common time for me to receive a sentence too. Patrick: In the shower can be a good place – you can scratch it into the wall, into the mist, write it down, whatever it is. But I’m in the posture of seeking the opportunity to find that time to write that down once I’ve heard that voice. Elizabeth: Can we talk about your work – who you work with, the wonderful men and women that you care for? Can we talk about that? Patrick: Yes, so 2 days a week, I work at the medical centre at Victoria Barracks, which is a service based in Melbourne. They are wonderful, so when I first started working for the military, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about war and the work of the military. Elizabeth: In what way? Patrick: I’d been a bit of a hippie, a bit of a peace lover, a bit biased against the war machine, or whether it’s a valuable service that the Army and Navy and Air Force offer. And then you get to meet these people and hear their stories. Elizabeth: Amazing. Patrick: Amazing, the sacrifice made. I see the plague of PTSD is becoming more public or known as an extension of the epidemic of general mental health problems in the world. As a physio you get a front row seat really, and you get the rare – it’s a real privilege to offer probably two of the greatest needs of the human being: to be heard and understood, and to be touched. Elizabeth: Yes. Beautiful. Patrick: To be touched. There aren’t many mainstream medical professionals that offer both. So as a physio you’re in a really good place and space to offer that service and in that way to gather stories. So in that way it does feed into the other half of my career, which is becoming more than half really, the writing side of things, and the gathering of stories from the confessional plinth is part of that, and the sharing of stories is part of that. Elizabeth: They’re exceptionally lucky to have you. Patrick: Goes both ways. Elizabeth: You’ve had wonderful success with your book sales. What does success mean to you? Patrick: About three bucks fifty? (Laughter) So I remember when my amazing editor and publisher Margrete Lamond sat me down – we met face to face for the first time – she’s based in New South Wales – one of her first pieces of advice was “Don’t give up your day job!” Elizabeth: I’ve had the same advice before. Patrick: So in terms of success it’s been humbling and mind-blowing to think that That’s What Wings Are For – my first book – has cracked the magical 10,000 books sold in Australia within 6 months. Elizabeth: Wow. Congratulations. That’s wonderful. Patrick: So now we’re into our second year of sales. I’m not sure where we’re up to now, but has been picked up internationally and translated internationally to Chinese and Korean and several other languages. What does it mean to me? It means that – it gives me a voice, a chance to talk to your lovely self, and to visit schools. I love that side of being a writer. Most writers are more comfortable in a darkened room tapping away. To my surprise, I was a very reluctant public speaker but I absolutely love going out to the schools. On Wednesday, I had a full school assembly, hundreds of kids there, and the audience and ability to speak and share… Elizabeth: ‘Cause you make that fun, don’t you. We’re just going back to The Ricker Racker Club for a moment, and can we know how you make that fun for the kids? ‘Cause the parents listening there would be really interested – we know we’re there to do hard work but school can be fun as well. So how do you make it fun for them, Patrick? Patrick: Well, The Ricker Racker Club – I invite everyone to join this very exclusive club, The Ricker Racker Club, IF they pass the test. So I read the story, but along the way we pause and issue challenges to the members of the audience to come up on behalf of the whole school, see if they can pass this test. So we follow the story. And one of the characters is Max, and in the first week he sticks his head into the fox’s hole. So I make up a little fox’s hole, and find a willing kid to stick his head into this fox’s hole. The whole school are counting 20 seconds and I bring out this little stuffed fox. So the poor kid doesn’t know I’m tiptoeing up behind him and “Raaaahhh!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Do you get a lot of screams? Patrick: We get a few of those, and then the villain of the book is this wolf next door, which is based on a great German Shepherd that lived next door to me, and I have the scar to prove, the moment the basketball flew over the fence. I rescued the basketball – and Chance (the dog’s name was Chance) – got me. And so the wolf next door – it would normally have a wolf suit – and it’s normally the PE teacher who dresses up as a wolf. Elizabeth: Would you go to our school? They’d love you. Patrick: I’d love to. Elizabeth: Ours is a service school, so you’ll like it. Ours is a service school, so we have a lot of service families that go to... Nice connection for you. Patrick: I’d love to come out. Absolutely. So the kids build up and up and at the end, “Who wants to join this club?” “Yeah!” “Who wants to learn the secret password?” “Yeah!” So I force it down a little and say, “Unfortunately you haven’t done quite enough yet.” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Oh my, the kids will go “Oh what?” Patrick: So it’s a case of “Do not put up your hand, do not raise your hand, unless you are extremely brave.” All the hands go up. “I mean it, I’m warning you now – extremely brave.” Elizabeth: What age group are we looking at, with the hands going up? Patrick: Prep, all the way to 6. Elizabeth: The whole school, wow. Patrick: At this point, some of the Grade 6s I can tell – folded their arms; it’s a bit babyish for them. So picture it: I do target them a bit at this point. So I’ll normally look for the guy who’s lost interest – the kid can be too cool for school here. And I’ll grab this fellow and bring him up. “So on behalf of the school, let’s talk about Courage. Courage comes in many forms. You’ve already demonstrated Courage by standing up in front of the whole school. But Courage comes in many forms. The courage to make a mistake when you know it’s going to get you in trouble. You’re scared of something. And then there’s taste buds. So we go back to Week 3, if you were listening, what did Zack do in Week 3?” And he’ll say “I’m sorry, I can’t remember.” Again in a loud voice, “What did Zack do in Week 3?” And you get the book out again: Zack drank a tomato sauce milkshake. At this point I’m standing behind him with milk, and then I bring out the tomato sauce. And what’s he do now? At this point he’s shaking his head ‘no’. And the school have already started the chant without encouragement: “Drink! Drink! Drink! Drink!” So I make this milkshake, this foaming tomato sauce milkshake… Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: And I pause again and say “Unfortunately my friend, Zack did that for one person. You’re doing it for 700 people right now. That’s not enough. So I look around – I shop for the largest Brussel sprout I can find. And I bring out this Brussel sprout, drop it into the tomato sauce milkshake, and present it to this fellow. Elizabeth: Poor kid. Patrick: The poor kid. Originally, I used this – it occurred to me that this is peer group pressure of the highest order. So I now use this as an opportunity for this poor unfortunate kid to – they’re saying no at this point – I really esteem that courage. I say “Look, you have done something extraordinarily brave. Everyone here at some point is going to face a baying crowd of people saying ‘Drink! Drink!’ or whatever. Elizabeth: That’s so clever, Patrick. Patrick: And to say no in the face of that, is true Courage. So I give him a round of applause and he sits down. “Now who wants to be a legend?” (Laughter) So someone else comes up. Or I’ll turn it into the “What would the kind person do now?” Or even better. “Maybe there’s a teacher in the audience…” Elizabeth: So what I’ll do is I’ll leave it there, because if the school listens to that one they won’t book you. I will leave them in suspense. When I first read That’s What Wings Are For, I was sitting in a coffee shop, with tears rolling down my cheeks. The other patrons respectfully averted their eyes. And you know you’ve found a great book when so much emotion is ... Can you please tell us about your inspiration for That’s What Wings Are For? Patrick: So That’s What Wings Are For … Maybe I can mention one of my favourite poems of all time, which is The Hound of Heaven. The Hound of Heaven, for those who don’t know, written more than a hundred years ago by a homeless opium addict in London, Francis Thompson. So he was asking the big question: how could a loving God allow such suffering in the world, and particularly in his own life? And the penny starts to drop about halfway through. He says maybe, just maybe, You allow us in Your love to burn and burn until we become charcoal, and You pick us up and You create Your masterpiece. So That’s What Wings Are For – I’m not calling it a masterpiece – it certainly came from a burning charcoal in process. And that process was the great sadness in my life. My son Noah has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, which is a devastating condition that involves the wasting of muscles. And the heart’s a muscle, and it’s a devastating disease. So in light of that I was asked to write a book about a certain blue dragon Bluey, who is the mascot for all the families affected by this devastating disease. So I was working on another book at the time, and I was asked to write this book. And I jumped at the chance, but I also knew there was a heavy responsibility writing that. So really you can look globally at that and look at the whole community impacted by that, but really it was a love letter from a father to a son. Elizabeth: Beautiful. Patrick: And that’s how it was written, and that is something I do say when I go out to the schools. You’ve heard Ricker Racker – it’s quite a boisterous, joyous occasion. When I go out to talk about That’s What Wings Are For, I basically start off in a fun way, and then I bring it back sharply and I say, I bring out Bluey, the actual mascot, a blue plush teddy, and I say “I actually met Bluey on the worst day of my life.” And to have a school go from being quite boisterous, and the teachers go “Shh! Shh! Shh!” to your pin drop in one sentence… Elizabeth: Wow, that’s powerful. Patrick: They get it. They get it. From the preppies all the way up to the Grade 6s, they get it, and there’s a real reverence suddenly about the book and why it was written. And then I explain what’s happened from there and we go from there. I still struggle to read it without crying, but they are tears of – what will I say - I heard this line yesterday – “what we sow with tears, we reap with shouts of joy”. And there’s something joyous – it’s bigger than me, this thing. It’s bigger than me. Elizabeth: What you’ve created is magnificent. Patrick: Thank you. Elizabeth: You’re welcome. You mentioned in an interview that 80% of That’s What Wings Are For was written over breakfast with your family, and then one sentence that brought tears to your eyes took you 3 months to write. Can you please share that sentence with my listeners and what it was that finally led you to discover the sentence that made you cry? Patrick: What it was was my incredible ego. I just – it went to my head. The idea of being a published author and all this went absolutely to my head. Elizabeth: Well you are only human after all. (Laughter) Patrick: Well, I’m sitting back there, I’m imagining red carpets, imagining walking up the stairs. It was shocking! And here I am, I’ve written a book for my sick kid, and my ego’s having a field day. At this point I hadn’t even had the manuscript finished… Elizabeth: You were strutting around… Patrick: It was appalling. I’m embarrassed about it, at the way I was carrying on in my head anyway. So we needed – Bluey needed a reason to be doing what he did ultimately, which is find a reason for his wings. And I was trying all these sentences about sending him off to Margrete, and very gently and respectfully she would be saying “That is rubbish.” (Laughter) Elizabeth: Thanks Margrete. She just knew there was more to you – she knows how deep you are. Patrick: She knew how to push the buttons and what’s right. And equally my wife Lisa as well. And more so my wife Lisa, she has a great ability to tell me when I’m writing something that’s rubbish - and good as well. Elizabeth: Good. Patrick: So the to-ing and fro-ing went on for months. And then I had this moment of “You complete goose! What are you doing?” And certainly at that moment I decided that every cent from this book would be given to charity, which it always should have been anyway, and I made that decision, and entered some prayer and reflection, and within really minutes of making that decision – within minutes – I was given this sentence. And I have to set the context of that time. And at the time we had a crudely termed … we called it a ‘year of adventure’ – you could call it a bucket list, and we were doing all sorts of things around the world. So the sentence – Bluey was coming back from the Royal Children’s Hospital. It was broadened to be a magical building filled with magical creatures with all sorts of ailments. So at that moment when Bluey looks out, and when I’m reading the story to the school, I’ll have people close their eyes and put their hands on their hearts, and feel. Elizabeth: Which I’m going to do now. Patrick: And if you keep feeling, you’ll feel something. You may not feel it straightaway, but if you keep trying, you’ll get there. You’ll feel something warm and fuzzy. And that feeling has a name; it has lots of names. Kindness, and hope, and love, and what happens – and at this moment, Bluey looks across, and I share this sentence: “Bluey saw the boy’s soft, floppy legs, and at that moment, something happened in Bluey’s heart. He stopped for that moment thinking so much about his own situation, and he looked inward. He looked out, and saw this boy sharing a similar path. That word ‘empathy’. That changed everything for Bluey; it helped him work out what his wings were for.” So we go on from there. Elizabeth: Beautiful. That compassion for another person. The author-illustrator relationship is such a pivotal one. Can you describe what is important to you in such a relationship? Patrick: Respect, and trust, and space. So ‘let there be space in your togetherness’. Certainly for the first two books – the first one, Daniella Germain, extraordinary talent. And then the same with Nathanial Eckstrom, rising superstar of the illustration world. So first book, I had no contact at all with Daniella until after all the illustrations were done. Had no input into the illustrations at all. So in terms of relationship, it’s one of trust. Slightly different with the second book – some feedback. Poor Nathanial, I saw his amazing illustrations, but – and it was amazing that he managed to draw my 3 kids without having seen a photo of them, quite accurately – except for Gracie wears glasses. And I just politely asked whether he might pop glasses on Poppy (Gracie is named Poppy in the book). So he went back and put glasses on. Then I had a look at that and thought, “No. Makes her look too old now. Can you take the glasses off?” So that was a bit of a diva moment for me, I suppose. But other than that it really is letting go and not being too precious and trusting in the selection of the illustrator – that’s up to the publisher – and I trust Margrete to make that decision, and she hasn’t failed me yet. I know how she is with me with the words, and she’s that way again with the illustrator. Elizabeth: What a wonderful person to find! Patrick: She is great, she’s fantastic. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment? Patrick: Well, the undercurrent to all the picture books that have been picked up in the last couple of years has been a novel for children called The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle, and I’ve been working on the story for more than 10 years. And it comes and goes, and then another idea overrides that. But I keep coming back to The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. That is lying dormant again, but I know I will go back to that, so there’s always that in the background. That story is the story of an old man who loves to tell stories. And he has this great secret. Great secret, that he's burning with this secret, to share it with his grandson Arthur. Long story short, he gets invited to the World Storytelling Competition in Marrakesh, Morocco, up against the greats of storytelling. Professor Chinwag from China, Lord Blabbermouth from England. I won’t give too much away, but he makes it to the final and he tells this great secret, but the secret is revealed slowly as the story goes along. Elizabeth: Suspense right through… Patrick: Right through. It has been a lot of hard work, also joy, and I have a sense that one day it will happen. I’ve also recently finished another picture book manuscript that is very, very dear to my heart, called Tiny Dancer. Elizabeth: The Elton John song. Patrick: The Elton John song, so hopefully Sir Elton will approve, and that’s really dear to my heart, and I’m in an acquisitions meeting on that one. And we’re in the process of illustrating and that process does involve some word changes. My next release which will be next year, I thought that was going to be a book called The Second Sky. It sounds like – based on this week’s emails – it sounds like it will be called Rabby the Brave. Elizabeth: You’re just prolific – you’re pounding on aren’t you, one after the other. Patrick: Look, it’s been a blessed couple of years. There’s been a very rich vein of inspiration and creativity that’s happening at the moment. Really grateful. Elizabeth: We’re very, very pleased too, I must say. Can’t wait to read them. What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind from all this work you’re doing – the physio work with the military, your family, and all this wonderful writing you’re doing? What do you do to unwind? Patrick: I’m clinging to my childhood in terms of chasing a bouncy ball around. I still play basketball. There’s a competition going on in Victoria Barracks actually, so at the ripe old age of 45, I’m taking on the burly soldiers, I’m taking on the burly soldiers in this basketball competition. Elizabeth: Well you have to keep up on being brave. (Laughter) Patrick: I love it. I must say I’m shamelessly, every goal I score – there aren’t many of them – I’m celebrating them like they could be my last. So there’s the fist pump and the whooping after every goal I score. And would you believe I’m still sort of – don’t let Lisa know but I’m still playing football. Full contact. There’s a wonderful competition – Reclink, midweek, battlers’ competition. You may have heard of the Choir of Hard Knocks – Reclink was spawned from it and there’s a football league for battlers, whether it be homeless refugees or people battling addiction. So we’ve set up a team in Frankston, and I’ve been the … Elizabeth: You are brave. (Laughter) Patrick: Madness, absolute madness. And so I’ve been the physio, the chaplain, the halfback flank and the water boy, whatever goes on, whatever’s needed for that team. And there’s just something primal about playing Australian Rules football that I just can’t let go of. And if I ever get the chance, I’ll go out surfing as well. Elizabeth: Isn’t it great to tap into that raw energy and just let yourself go? Patrick: It is. With surfing, it’s one of the few pastimes or sports where you spend 95% of the time staring at the horizon. So you get a chance to unwind – then it goes from the serenity to scrambling for your life. It’s great. Elizabeth: It’s a bit of a metaphor, isn’t it? Patrick: It’s great. Yes, so those are the 3 main things. Elizabeth: Do you want to remain in the children’s book genre? Patrick: Absolutely. Maybe one day a book for grownups, but certainly at the moment I’m loving – when you write a picture book, you are writing for grownups – you’re writing for two generations. Elizabeth: It’s that connection, I think, with parent-child. It’s so special. And you both learn so much when you’re reading together. Patrick: Absolutely. And I’ve been trying to make the transition from picture books into early readers, and I’ve found that quite hard. I might have to leapfrog that and go into older early readers. Because to go from a picture book to an early reader is – you got to dumb it down. You really have to dumb it down. That’s a crude way of saying it, but you do. There are certain concepts you have to avoid, and using poetry or metaphors is a bit more tricky. So maybe that’s not for me, that niche. So certainly The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle is for an older reader, an older young reader. And then the picture books as well. I might stick to those, to genres within the broader children’s book genre for now. We’ll see what happens after. Elizabeth: You’re so insightful. Because you haven’t actually studied Creative Writing or completed a formal uni degree in writing, and yet your knowledge is so vast. Is you’re your intuition at play again, do you think? Patrick: Not sure. I think it’s a blessing. Don’t want to use the word ‘gift’, but I think it’s nothing to be proud of if it’s a gift. Elizabeth: I really have to disagree, because so many people are given, receive gifts, it’s then what you do with that gift. And so many people do not do anything with what they’ve been blessed with. I do think you can claim that proudly and whoop, like on a footy field. (Laughter) Patrick: Maybe. I do love whooping when there’s a sense of victory, a sense of accomplishment – once you finish that manuscript, submit to send, and you know it’s off, and have such a beautiful relationship with Margrete. I should mention Alyson O’Brien, who is also with Little Hare – I’m increasingly involved with her. I know that they will read it and give it the full attention and get back to me quite quickly, so that agonizing wait has been reduced to, in some cases, a few hours now, which is great. Elizabeth: It’s cause you’re so clever, and they know it. Do you have a website or blog, Patrick, that my listeners can go to find out more about your wonderful work? Patrick: Yes, there’s a shiny new website, “Patrick Guest dot com dot au”. I know nothing about the technical side of websites, and a great friend of mine, Jeffrey County, has helped set that up, and it’s sparkling. Elizabeth: Aren’t tech people great? I’m not one of those. Patrick: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There’s no way I could do that. So that’s up and running now, so there’s opportunity to email me and contact me through that. Happy to do that. Elizabeth: Patrick, this is a signature question that I ask all my guests. What do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Patrick: That’s a big one. Look, the first thing that springs to mind is a cure for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Elizabeth: I’m with you. Patrick: That would be the first thing. But if I thought more about it, more broadly… Maybe I could go back to Ernie Pigwinkle, The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. So I’ll give away a little bit, so we get to the end of the story. We’re at the World Storytelling Championships, so Ernie, this old man from Ballarat, has made the final and won, thanks to his grandson. So the secret starts off as “Do you know why dogs wag their tails?” We move on from there to “Why dogs and cats fight – the origins of war”. Then he finishes with a little song, a little poem he says to the world: It’s a war that’s continued to this very day. It’s a shame that Dog and Cat couldn’t think of a way To listen and learn and be understood, And love one another as all of us could. You don’t have to carry on like a dog or a cat. You’re not a baboon or as blind as a bat. There’s a heart in your chest and a brain in your head. So before you lose faith, hold on instead. Hold on to your faith in the goodness of others. Never give up on your sisters and brothers. You’ll see for yourself, as sure as the sun, That there’s something worth loving in everyone. He says that. Elizabeth: I need a box of tissues. [Laughter] Oh Patrick, my goodness, that’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Patrick: That’s the world premiere of The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle and… Elizabeth: What a coup on Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Wow, Patrick! Superb. Patrick Guest, thank you so much for joining me on “Writers Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris”. We look forward to more of your stunning work. I totally agree with you: hugging is what wings are for. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and may your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Rosalie Ham is the author of The Dressmaker, Summer at Mount Hope, and There Should Be More Dancing.The Dressmaker was made into a movie starring Kate Winslet, Judy Davis, Liam Hemsworth and Hugo Weaving, amongst others, and opened at the number one spot at the Australian and New Zealand box offices, and became the second highest grossing Australian film of 2015.  Find out more about Rosalie's work at RosalieHam.com. What you'll learn:1. Rosalie's thoughts on the Hollywood box office success of The Dressmaker.2. The one trait you must have to succeed as a writer.3. How a negative review has turned out to Rosalie's advantage.4. Why Rosalie prefers the company of the main characters in There Should Be More Dancing. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects Authors, Poets and Songwriters with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-caliber guests, I want you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce today’s guest, Rosalie Ham. Rosalie was born and raised in Jerilderie, New South Wales, Australia. Prior to Rosalie’s life as a bestselling author, she worked in a variety of jobs, including a stint in aged care. Rosalie completed a Bachelor in Education majoring in Drama and Literature in 1989, and completed her Master of Arts (Creative Writing) in 2007. In 2000, Rosalie published her first novel, The Dressmaker, now a major box office hit. The Dressmaker opened at the number one spot at the Australian and New Zealand box offices, and became the second highest grossing Australian film of 2015, and the eleventh highest grossing film of all time at the Australian box office. The costumes from this poignant film have been featured in several costume exhibitions. Rosalie is jetting off to New York soon for a special screening of The Dressmaker before its release on September 23rd. Rosalie’s second novel, Summer at Mount Hope, was published in 2005. And in 2011, we were privileged to receive yet another great novel, There Should Be More Dancing, which we will feature today. Rosalie Ham, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Rosalie: Thank you, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Rosalie, we both worked in aged care before launching our writing careers. Can you tell me a little about how serving others has impacted you? Rosalie: Enormously. Looking after elderly people was probably one of the best things I’ve ever done. And I think possibly because of all the information, all the learning, all the experience, all the history, and because of their outlook on life at that stage in their life. They seem to be quite – a lot of them seem to be quite resigned to the life they’ve led and others are quite happy about the life they’ve led and others are quite bitter about the life they should have led, I suppose. But I thoroughly enjoyed it, I learned a huge amount. I enjoy enormously old people and of course it makes you see what’s important and what’s not. Elizabeth: Just because they’re usually perceptive, isn’t it. Rosalie: Yes. Elizabeth: And learning too from their wisdom, whether they actually enjoyed their life or whether they have not quite enjoyed, they laugh as well. Rosalie. Yes, and we learned about war and why the men were like that. We learned about some of the lives of the women. Most particularly, a lot of the women got married early because that was what was expected of them, and a lot of women were actually quite disappointed in the whole thing. Elizabeth: That sense of duty to the country, wasn’t it. Rosalie: Yes. And then of course you see the elderly ladies coming and sitting at their husbands’ bedside, the devoted true-love matches that have endured 60 years. That’s very sad when one of them has to be looked after by other people. It’s sad for their wives. They come in, sometimes twice a day. It’s just very real. Elizabeth: Sure. When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Rosalie: Do you know, I’ve always known it, but it was only hindsight that told me that I had always known it. I wrote stories as a kid, I put on plays with all my imaginary friends, and my best friend Terrie and I put on acting performances at primary school. So there’s always been a sense of story and drama. And there’s always been a sense of an audience for all those things. But of course if you weren’t raised in the way I was, be able to get a good job and support yourself and that … Happily, I was given the alternative, like if I was unfortunate enough to not get married and be supported, my parents always wanted me to have a job. So I trained to have a job and I put any writing aspirations to the side. But I always wrote letters and I always kept a bit of a journal. And occasionally I would write a short story. And I knew that I could spin a yarn because people would say to me, “Can you write me a letter, like in your letters?” And then one day I just got bored with life and seeing that I’d done everything else that I was supposed to do, it seemed there was something a bit not there, something a bit missing, so I went off to writing school. And I think I was sitting in that writing class for about three weeks before I went, actually there was something physical emotional sensation that came across me and I went, “Aha!” This is where I remember the classroom and this is where I remember “I can do this”, where I feel good. That moment there – it was excellent. Elizabeth: Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly how to keep going? Rosalie: It’s tenacity – and I kind of believe that everybody could be a writer if they wanted to. But you’ve got to have the inclination, and you’ve got to want to sit in a room on your own for a very, very long time, and you’ve got to be quite comfortable doing that, and then perhaps being rejected. But I just think you need to be bored enough as well. Like there needs to be something not in your life that you can find happiness in doing that – in doing that menial task, just sitting in your room on your own with that computer and being dedicated to all those characters. A huge amount of writers will drop out of a writing course partway into it. They discover that it’s not for them, so I think that if you were still sitting in that room after a year and you’re still walking around thinking about your story, then you have the temperament to sit down and be able to do it. You’ve got to have a degree of talent, and you’ve got to have a degree of tenacity to be able to do it. You just got to stick at it. My personal philosophy is that you need to get it all down on the page, and then once you’ve got all the words, then you have something to craft. Elizabeth: They talk about writing junk, don’t they, and then eventually you fine-tune that. Rosalie: You do, and that’s a skill too. I think that’s a really important part of writing. You can go back and recognize what the junk is. You’re quite happy to chop it out, and you feel quite confident that you’ll be able to write more, and write again, and keep writing, that there’s something in you that will keep doing that. So if you have to cut out ten pages, it’s not a problem. Elizabeth: It’s almost like there’s that sense of non-attachment too, because you are too attached to what you’ve written down, you can’t let it go. You need to have that free-flowing feeling about things. Rosalie: But you’ve got to write – I agree with you completely, you’ve got to be writing so that other people will read it. Other authors say they don’t write for an audience, but I write something that is well-crafted, well I try to anyway, and other readers might disagree with me, but I do try to write something that’s well-crafted that will keep the reader engaged. So I do have a reader in mind when I’m writing, so therefore I’m quite happy to edit and get rid of things, I learned that earlier on. With my first edit actually, I learned that you have to let things go, and I was quite happy to do it. Elizabeth: Great. And I know that when I read your work, I giggle right through. Do you do that too? Rosalie: Yeah you know sometimes you need to. I was preparing for this interview a few weeks ago, and I picked up There Should Be More Dancing, and I read a couple of pages and I thought, “Gosh! That’s…that’s quite okay.” Elizabeth: Absolutely. Rosalie: And I was watching an interview with Edna O’Brien on television last night, and the interviewer read something of hers to her, and she had to ask him which book it was from. He said it was The Country Girls. And I felt quite happy about that, because honestly I’ve forgotten a lot of what I’ve written. Elizabeth: When you’re writing, Rosalie, what is your major source of support – or who? Rosalie: No one. I suppose I will have to say my husband; he knows not to – I think he can tell by the tone – and my shoulders are … Then he will ask me a question and then he kind of backs off, because you know, I’m in the middle of doing something. I speak a lot to the dog that’s lying there on the … Elizabeth: Yes, Eric’s there, having a bit of a sleep. Rosalie: And I’ve got a really good friend Terrie, and I talk … whinge to her about it. She doesn’t really listen to what I’m saying, but at least I can air my thoughts. And there’s a couple of other writers that I have dinner with from time to time, and we’ll have a little bit of a whinge. And so I think those things…But there’s not one huge great thing.  I guess it’s my desire to get to the end of it too that keeps me tripping over, sitting there typing. Elizabeth: Letting you come back into it again. Rosalie: Absolutely. Elizabeth: You’ve had phenomenal success with The Dressmaker. What does being successful mean to you? Rosalie: You know, people ask me that, and it actually hasn’t altered my life at all, really. I’ve got a nice car and I’ve paid off my mortgage, which is a huge relief. It’s a blessing to have that off there, but I think what it means now is that when I do publish my … when publishing houses get hold of my fourth manuscript that I’ve just finished, they will look at it in a different way, given the success of The Dressmaker. And along with that, that has meant people have started reading Summer of Mount Hope and There Should Be More Dancing, so they are reaching a wider audience, and I can’t tell you how happy I am about that. Elizabeth: Wonderful. Rosalie: And of course that means I’ve been published in other countries as well. And all of that is amazing. It’s amazing to have that kind of affirmation, and people pick up your book and look at it differently because there’s been one successful book, so they have a certain expectation about the others. There are some people that will go into my other books with trepidation and possibly a little bit of cynicism. But there are others who will go with a lovely attitude. So I’m really, really happy about that but I think most importantly, it’s an affirmation for me. It’s a double-edged thing; I feel quite affirmed by that success, but also slightly more terrified because there is that expectation. Elizabeth: And does it in one way create a sense of pressure? Rosalie: Absolutely, it does. But that’s alright. It comes back to that boredom or tenacity or something, but I just seem to be okay with that, and I’ll just try really hard not to read the reviews. I think that’s probably the best thing – just don’t read reviews, because they will scrutinize more, the reviews, so I will just have to deal with that. Elizabeth: Have they upset you in the past? Rosalie: Look, the very first review I ever read of The Dressmaker, I think was the worst review I’ve ever read of any book, ever. It was scathing, it was awful, and I photocopied it. And I was at home at the time, and my friend was with me, and I photocopied it and we took it to class. And we read it out to the class. They all looked – I can still see them, they were looking at me like “Oh my God”, and the teacher – bless him – said, “Right, okay, this is a good lesson to us all. What we’re going to do now, is we’re going to do some therapy with Rosalie. And I want everybody to close their books; we’re going to the pub.” (Laughter) So we went to the pub. So I of course have blown that review up, and it’s on my wall in there, and what I do with that review is … often, because The Dressmaker is on the VCE Lit. list, and often they study The Dressmaker – and one of the questions they’re asked when they’re doing their SAC’s, you know, other people’s opinions of the book as opposed to theirs. I happily had photocopied thousands of copies and handed them out to the schoolchildren of Victoria, to show them how one reviewer’s point of view can differ from theirs and how you don’t take literally or to heart every review, and how that can be damaging. So there’s a whole lot of schoolchildren out there who now know that particular reviewer got it terribly, terribly wrong. She missed the point. She missed the point entirely of the whole book. Elizabeth: So thank you very much to that person, because she certainly increased the determination all over Victoria, Australia, possibly the world… people who might be feeling a bit bruised. That’s great. In There Should Be More Dancing, I was particularly drawn to your main character Marjorie Blandon. I especially loved this quote: ‘Marjorie Blandon has led an upright, principled life guided by the wisdom of desktop calendars.’ As the novel progresses, the reader discovers that there are many secrets contained within Marjorie’s supposedly principled life. There Should Be More Dancing is such a great book, and showcases your wit beautifully. Can you please share one of your favourite passages from There Should Be More Dancing? Rosalie: I think – possibly – it would have to be the public scalping incident with Pat across the road. I think that’s probably the one I enjoyed writing the most. But actually Marjorie is my favourite person on the planet. She’s one of those people in the aged care facility, a little bit bigoted and a little bit prejudiced. Elizabeth: So I’ve looked after many Marjorie’s in my time in my nursing career… (Laughter) Rosalie: Look, I’m going to read the Public Scalping Incident, and it’s quite long. So I might just start off. It happened at the 1976 Ladies Legacy luncheon. Pat and Bill were big in Legacy, and for the ladies’ luncheon, Pat was allowed to take a guest as it was her turn to give the address. As she was rehearsing her address one last time, articulating and emphasizing her words to her assembled ballroom dancing frocks, the phone rang. She was disappointed to hear her guest Betty say her car had broken down. “I know it’s a long way Pat, but we could go halves on the price of a taxi.” So of course Pat doesn’t want to go halves on the price of a taxi. So she is forced to ask Marjorie to be her guest at the Legacy luncheon where she is to give her address, because Marjorie’s got a car. Elizabeth: That’s right. Rosalie: And so Marjorie ends up on the top table. And I’ll just read that bit there. So Marjorie found herself at the top table – the Legacy leaders’ table, a dignitary to her right and Pat on her left. Before her a sea of soft brown and blue curls and ample-bosomed ladies, floral and pastel with fleshy earlobes, wattles and dewlaps, all maintained by step-ins and various prosthetics. Before her propped a saucer of geranium petals surrounding a floating chrysanthemum, was a white card advertising the day’s proceedings. First on the program was the local choir, who sang ‘God Save The Queen’. The assembled ladies then sat through Number 2: welcome speech by the Chairwoman. Number 3: the main meal would be served – chicken or ham salad followed by Number 4, the choir singing ‘Morning Has Broken’, while the ladies enjoyed a fruit compote with custard. For Number 5, a lass from St Joseph’s School wrote a composition on the effects of war on those left behind. Her story was based on the life of her great-grandmother, who had grown her own vegetables and milked her cow and ploughed her own fields during the war to help the Land Army. Then it was Pat’s turn. The emcee said, “I give you Pat Crookshank, and this month’s address titled ‘The Unseen Effects of War on Women’. Pat bared her teeth to Marjorie and said, “Any fruit seeds stuck to my dentures?” “No,” said Marjorie. And Pat turned to stand up. At that moment, Marjorie noticed the tag poking out of the back of Pat’s cardigan. “Hang on,” she said, and reached out to tuck it in, when the catch on her wrist watch caught on one of Pat’s curls as she rose. Marjorie had no idea Pat wore a wig, no idea her hair had snapped off and fallen out from years and years of peroxide and perming fluid. Pat stood frozen before the room of fellow legatees, her rival addressees past and future, the thin tufts of her brittle hair flat against her damp shiny pate, and her wig dangling from Marjorie’s wrist watch. (Laughter) Finally someone started clapping. Pat had turned a deep red, and the audience, moved by her brave humility, started to applaud thunderously. (Applause) Elizabeth: This is weird, classical, absolutely delightful. How can we better that? (Laughter) Rosalie: Thanks. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment, Rosalie? Rosalie: I’ve just handed in my fourth novel. I think that’s the third or fourth time I’ve mentioned that in the last fifteen minutes – I’m so pleased. Elizabeth: We want you to mention it again. Rosalie: The fourth manuscript is … again, I’ve returned to a small community. A small community is a good palette for life’s tragedies, and it doesn’t really matter if it’s in a rural community or urban community or in your street or your football club or whatever. But small communities… Elizabeth: It’s all group dynamics, isn’t it. Rosalie: It is, absolutely. So this one’s set in a small country town and has to do with irrigation water and the effects of government buybacks and water allocations on this one small community. And one man – whose name is Mitchell Bishop – and he has a 12 km stretch of channel that needs to be replaced. But there are three areas in the town that are affected. There are the riparians who live along the river and there are the town folk and the shopkeepers, and of course there are the irrigators. And the impacts that the water renewal projects and the water restrictions and irrigation allocation has on that community. Elizabeth: Which would be huge, being a life force, water. Rosalie: Absolutely, yeah. And if you cut the allocation to the irrigators, they have to produce more with less water, and they have to spend more money to get less water to support the upgrade, and therefore they don’t spend money in the town. And so when one liter of water leaves the community, so does one job more or less. But in order to stay afloat, you need the water. You all need to work together. And of course the town people are resentful. Their water rates are going to go up to support the irrigators. The riparians are resentful because they’re going to suffer, they’re going to take more water, yet at the same time the world needs food. We have to feed people, and there are more people, so they need more food. So it’s a sort of distillation of that in a small community. Elizabeth: And all the dynamics that go with that, no doubt addressed very cleverly by you. Rosalie: Oh well actually there is love, and there is a bit of tragedy, and there’s a few things that go on. Elizabeth: If you had decided not to write your novels, what sort of career do you think you would have taken? Rosalie: Do you know, I often think about this, and I think that I probably would be a teacher. I still am a teacher. I still teach two days a week, but I think I probably would be working fulltime as a teacher, possibly in a secondary college. You know years ago I went for an interview to be a State Registered Nurse, you know, a nursing sister. But I just never did it. I was having far too much fun, so I only tried to be a State Enrolled Nurse, which was just the one-year course. And I think that was the key to my writing success, because if I’d been a State Registered Nurse, I think I probably would have been quite content with that, and I would have had a perfectly lovely life around that. Elizabeth: Ironically, I am a State Registered Nurse, but I have continued on to write, so maybe not, because you’ve got that enormous talent that we could not do without. Rosalie: Possibly, but it’s hard to speculate, but yeah, perhaps you’re right. Elizabeth: What is it about teaching that you love? Rosalie: Do you know, I think probably communication. Communicating ideas, and for me it’s seeing the light bulb go on. If you’re explaining something – and I teach Literature – explaining Shakespeare or reading Shakespeare or poetry or something and you stop and you look at those people and you go, “Okay, now this is what is happening”, and explain what is going on, they go “Oh…right…” and you send them off on a journey of self-exploration and you get them to find all those things. I think if you’re enthusiastic enough it infects the students, and they get carried away with the whole thing. You just – it’s communicating the information and seeing them go “Oh okay, I get it”. Elizabeth: And you’d be a fabulous teacher – very, very entertaining. (Laughter) What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind? Rosalie:  I read. I read books. And I play golf. I love to play golf. Go for a lovely long walk. And I enjoy going for a nice drive in the country, going home to the farm, doing something quite different. Elizabeth: Do you have a special place you like to go other than the farm? Rosalie: No, it’s just the farm – the family farm. And there’s something about standing on a farm and being able to see the horizon, with no obstructions, nothing to block your imagination and stop your vision at this point. There’s nothing, so your vision goes on, and as it goes on, things fall away and you understand what’s important. One of my favourite things to do is sit in the ute with my brother as he goes about his sheep work. And my job is to open the gate – that’s something I’ve been doing since I was able to open a gate – and just watch him go about doing his business, asking dumb questions about farming things. It just puts everything back into perspective for me and time is slower in the country. Elizabeth: Yes, it’s wonderful. What does your brother think of your success? Rosalie: Oh they’re thrilled to bits. They were all very good you know, because it’s in a small community - they love it if someone is out there kicking goals. You know, they really think it’s a terrific and wonderful thing and I’m very grateful to that. We’ve been back to Jerilderie and they’ve received us very well. It’s been really good, and the Ham family up at J seem to be coping with it all quite well. Of course a lot of them were in the film as extras and they come down if I have a book launch. They’ll come down for a special trip you know, and they’ll make that effort to come down, which I appreciate enormously. Elizabeth: And you were in the film too! Rosalie: Yeah, no, I’m an extra as well. Elizabeth: I’ve seen you in the film. How was that for you? How did you feel when you were doing all that great acting? Rosalie: Do you know, I probably … I think I’m more content in the company of Marjorie Blandon and her lovely son Walter in There Should Be More Dancing. I think my days of being an extra have come and gone. It was fun, and I enjoyed it, but really when I finished that fourth manuscript the other day and handed it in, it was just such a heartwarming thing. Because that whole thing about your characters and creating the arc and all that sort of stuff, and me doing it rather than participating in somebody else’s, is probably some sort of vanity or narcissism, but I actually prefer that. I actually prefer that, to be doing my own thing in my own room, creating my own little story, rather than revisiting them when they’re out in the world. Elizabeth: And the characterization of There Should Be More Dancing is so rich. Rosalie: Yeah, no, I loved writing that book and I loved all those people. I love that Judith came good in the end. I had a huge amount of fun writing that book. Elizabeth: I enjoyed every page; I must say thank you very much for that book. It was fantastic. Do you have a website or blog where my listeners can find out more about your work? Rosalie: I do. It’s www-dot-Rosalie-Ham-dot-com and there’s a blog there. And I wrote that while I was being an extra in The Dressmaker. But now that I’ve handed in the fourth manuscript, I’ll probably go back and write a few more things on different topics. And Summer at Mount Hope is being published in the United Kingdom right now, and I’m hoping someone will pick up There Should Be More Dancing. They told me that it’s not a story that will translate well in other countries but I’m just really hoping it does. Elizabeth: I really disagree, but then that’s me. Rosalie: Yeah, no, I disagree too but let’s just see what happens…my third one…my third child Elizabeth: Rosalie, this is a signature question I ask all my guests. What do you wish for – for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Rosalie: It’s basically the same thing, it’s Health. For the world of course – I just think … I hope we get our act together … climate change. I hope we get our act together over less advantaged countries and poverty and educating women in disadvantaged countries. If the women rise, the village will rise with them. You always hope for those sorts of things. I don’t think we’re ever going to stop any kind of war; I think that’s human nature. But basically for my health I just would like for me and everybody else around me to be healthy and happy. That’s all that’s important. Elizabeth: That’s one thing you can’t have too much of. Rosalie Ham, thank you so much for guesting on Writers’ Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris. We look forward to more of your work and your fantastic characterizations. I totally agree with you and Florence: “There should be more dancing.” Thanks for tuning in everyone. If you enjoy this episode and want more high-caliber guests, subscribe to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris on iTunes and may all your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Summary: The lads and lady are talking about good TV shows that were ended too soon! Milk tasting... WTF is going on in the Land Locked Yacht Club. This could be a bounce castle in the zeppelin? In the Studio: Dan Ken Jessica Michael Cocktail du Jour: Sidecar - 2 oz Cognac - 3/4 oz Lemon Juice - 3/4 oz triple Sec Shake and strain into cocktail glass Quote du Jour: Donnie: You're such a fuck-ass! Rose Darko: Please. Elizabeth: What? Did you just call me a "fuck-ass"? Rose Darko: Elizabeth, that's enough. Elizabeth: You can go suck a fuck. Donnie: Oh, please, tell me, Elizabeth, how exactly does one suck a fuck? Elizabeth: You want me to tell you? Donnie: Please, tell me. Rose Darko: We will not have this at the dinner table. Donnie: [Mouthing] I'm all ears! Elizabeth Darko, Rose Darko and Donnie Darko - Donnie Darko Intro/Outro music from Haggis Rampant’s new album, “Burly!”

My guest today is Elizabeth Galbut ( https://twitter.com/design4innov8 ) , one of the founding partners of SoGal Ventures ( http://www.sogalventures.com/ ). SoGal Ventures is the is the first female-led, next generation venture capital firm. In this episode we discuss how Elizabeth's interests led to thinking about consumer innovation, how she started a fund, the biggest arbitrage opportunity of her lifetime, and managing a two person global fund. Without further ado, here's Elizabeth. Some of the questions I ask Elizabeth: * You were originally in healthcare. What prompted you to make this transition to become a venture capitalist? * How did SoGal Ventures come about? What's your typical check size * I know Pocket is located in Asia, you're located in the United States and you are a two GP, how do you think about where to focus on investing since you are quite global and have a small team? * Walk me through your due diligence process * What categories do you spend the most time on? How do you analyze categories * What has to stand out when you talk to founders? * I know part of your focus is looking at products that serve the upcoming generation. What are you most surprised by Gen Z? * What's one thing you would change about venture capital? * What's one book that inspired you personally and one book that inspired you professionally? * What's the best piece of advice that you've received? * What's one piece of advice for founders?