Podcasts about elizabeth so

Episode 100: Reboot Your Meal PlanningWe made it to 100 episodes! Wow!! We're grateful to you all for being here and supporting our work to challenge diet culture and make family nutrition less stressful.In our latest episode, we're celebrating with a topic that comes up a lot—meal planning. But not the Pinterest-perfect kind (no judgement here if you love that kind of meal planning). Anna and I are talking about realistic, flexible planning that supports you instead of stresses you out.We share our personal routines, what “go-to meals” mean in our homes, and how diet culture can sneak into the way we think about food and planning. Whether you're a an avid list-maker or more spontaneous, there's something in here for you.What are your “go-to meals”? If you're interested in a deeper dive into all the aspects of feeding your family, from navigating sweets, meal planning, assessing your child's growth, to supporting your picky eater, join the Sunny Side Up Nutrition Membership: Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding. Links we mention in this episode:* Our Feeding Framework* Easy Black Beans and Rice* Spinach Lasagna* Sweet Potato and Black Bean Tacos* White Bean, Sausage & Kale Soup* Black Beans, Corn, and Tomatoes —A 15 minute recipe 7 different ways* Pinney Davenport Nutrition (DC Area)* Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy (Raleigh, NC)* Photo by Gabrielle Henderson on UnsplashTranscriptElizabeth: Hi, Anna. So welcome, everyone. We are here today to chat about rebooting your meal planning. So, Anna, I'm just going to jump right in with the first question slash topic.Elizabeth: Feeding Framework Step #1 is to provide structure, not perfection. In our previous podcast episode, we talked about the feeding framework—and we'll link to it in the show notes in case you didn't have a chance to listen. How does that connect with our meal planning philosophy? And how does diet culture interfere with meal planning?Anna: That's two really important questions! I think a lot of people hear “meal planning” and immediately think it has to look a certain way. Like there's a right way to plan and a right way to follow the plan. A lot of folks also associate meal plans with dieting. But the way you and I think about meal planning is more about support. It's a structure that helps feeding ourselves and our families feel less chaotic.Elizabeth: Yes—exactly. I always regret it when I skip meal planning. Everything feels more chaotic.Anna: Totally. But diet culture can really mess with how we think about meal planning. On social media, you see these perfect plans that take forever to make, or these rigid schedules where every meal is pre-determined. There's this assumption that you have unlimited time and resources. But that's not how we define it. Everyone's meal plan will look different.Elizabeth: Absolutely. I mean, almost every week I end up making something different than I planned. Life happens.Anna: Yes! And one more thing—we share meal ideas every week in our Substack newsletter. Five lunches, five dinners, three breakfasts. The goal isn't to be perfect or different every day. It's to make life easier.Elizabeth: Right, we don't make seven different breakfasts every week! That sounds exhausting.Anna: We also say all the time: meal planning only needs to take 10–15 minutes. Let me walk you through what I do.Anna: I start by looking at our evening activities for the week—soccer practice, concerts, things like that. Then I plan about four dinners. I don't usually assign them to specific nights, but I try to think ahead to busy nights and plan something easy.Anna: Next, I make a list of the ingredients I need and then check the fridge, pantry, and freezer for staples—like milk, bread, eggs, lunch stuff. Then I place a grocery order online, usually on Sunday.Elizabeth: My method isn't as structured! I go to the store more often and I'm lucky to have a farmer's market nearby. I get meat, fish, and produce there in the warmer months. I also enjoy trying new recipes, so sometimes planning takes longer because I want to cook something new.Anna: That's what works for you! I'll also do a Costco or Trader Joe's run once a month. It's a big day when I do both. I joke that I've been hunting and gathering all day!Elizabeth: I feel that. And having frozen or prepared foods from those stores makes weeknights easier. I also plan four dinners and rely on my go-to meals to fill in the rest. Speaking of which—let's talk about go-to meals.Anna: A go-to meal, for me, is something I usually have the ingredients for and can make in 15–20 minutes. One of mine is Black Beans and Rice—it's super simple. We've made it for years. You use canned beans, cumin, salsa or tomatoes, and rice. Great for leftovers too.Elizabeth: Yes, for me it's similar—easy ingredients I have on hand. Everyone's go-to meals will look different. The key is they shouldn't stress you out.Anna: Exactly. We also both rely on the “cook once, eat twice” idea. If I'm making a bigger dinner on Monday, I want it to be something we can use for another night or lunches. Spinach lasagna is one—great for lunchboxes. Or grilled chicken becomes BBQ chicken salad or pizza. Everyone can build their own bowl.Elizabeth: I do something similar with black beans and corn and tomatoes. It turns into burritos, rice bowls, even a topping for chicken. We also do Sweet Potato and Black Bean Tacos—I double the batch and use the extras for bowls with pre-cooked rice.Anna: Love that. Soups and pasta dishes work well too. I like anything that helps with lunches.Elizabeth: If someone only has five minutes, what's one thing they can do this week to feel less stressed about meal planning?Anna: Make a list of your go-to meals. Just write them down—stream of consciousness. Then you can build from there and even make a list of pantry staples to keep on hand.Elizabeth: Yes! I always check my go-to list when I feel stuck. Anything else we should add?Anna: Just remember: there's no right way to do this. You don't have to make black beans and rice. Find what's easy and accessible for you.Elizabeth: So true. What are you making tonight?Anna: Actually, we have a school dinner event. But next time I cook, it'll probably be tacos. Always a favorite in my house.Elizabeth: I'm making coconut rice with roasted chicken thighs, carrots, purple broccoli from the farmers market, and a peanut sesame sauce. It's a few components, but not a ton of work. The Lundberg coconut rice is already cooked and microwaveable. (not sponsored)Anna: That sounds amazing.Elizabeth: Let us know what you're cooking! You can comment on Substack, DM us on Instagram, or email us at hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com.Both: Happy meal planning! Bye! This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com

Diet culture loves to tell parents exactly how to and how not to feed their kids. What happens often is well-intentioned parents abandon their parenting style(s) and find themselves swinging on a pendulum between permissive feeding practices and urging their kids to “take 3 more bites, or no dessert”! In this latest podcast episode, Anna and I explain how feeding is parenting, how diet-culture creates misalignment, and simple shifts you can make to create calm mealtimes.Takeaways* Consistency is key: Kids do well when the support and boundaries they experience at bedtime and homework time are also part of mealtimes.* Authoritative feeding vs. short order cooking — Learn how you can shift away from short order cooking. * Learning doesn't happen all at once- Gradually give tweens and teens planning, prepping, and packing instead of handing over all the responsibilities all at once. * Notice the mismatch — If your food rules feel more harsh, or you find you've abandoned any structure, that may be a clue to experiment with a small shift toward a more supportive parenting style. Resources & Links* Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding – Our 12-module membership that walks you through stress-free family feeding step-by-step.* Instagram – DM us your questions: @sunnysideupnutritionists* Email the show: hello@sunnysideupnutrition.comFull TranscriptElizabeth:Welcome to Sunny Side Up Nutrition a podcast created by three moms striving to bring you evidence-based information to help support you and the children in your life. Your hosts are Anna Lutz and me Elizabeth Davenport, both registered dietitians, and Anna Mackay, a dietitian-to-be and certified personal trainer. Anna Lutz co-owns Lutz, Alexander & Associates Nutrition Therapy in Raleigh, North Carolina, and I co-own Pinney Davenport Nutrition in the D.C. metro area. Anna Mackay is in the process of completing her dietetic internship. Just a note that this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. Thanks for being here.Elizabeth: Hi, Anna. It's so exciting to be here again recording our now third episode back into podcasting.Anna:Yeah.Elizabeth: So, today we are going to talk about what we mean when we say feeding is parenting. It's easy to think of mealtime struggles as separate from how we parent, but the truth is they're very interconnected. Diet culture often pulls us out of alignment with the kind of parents we want to be, so today Anna and I are going to chat about how to identify what's working, what's not, and what small shifts you can make to reduce the stress around feeding as parenting.Anna: Absolutely—that was great!Anna:One of the things we say a lot is feeding is parenting. So let's unpack that, because listeners may be thinking, what in the world are you talking about? We can also share examples of how diet culture interferes in parenting.Anna:In the introduction you said it so well: the messages parents get about how to feed children can push us to feed in a way that's completely different from the style of parenting we use for everything else. Someone who's normally supportive and structured—bedtime, homework, learning new skills—might suddenly feed in an authoritarian way because diet culture is very good/bad, right/wrong. That misalignment creates anxiety.Elizabeth:Yes! The parent might wonder, Wait, this isn't what I believe—why am I doing this around food? And all the online feeding advice may not align with how they actually parent, so they're left questioning whether they're doing a good job. It's a lot to navigate.Anna:Exactly. For example, telling a child, “You must eat all your broccoli before dessert.” That's an authoritarian rule. Yet in other areas this same parent may be collaborative and supportive—like helping a shy child ease into a birthday party instead of forcing them inside. If we step back and apply that supportive style to food, we'd offer the broccoli, let the child decide to smell it, taste it, or not, and trust that over time they'll learn to eat it without the hammer coming down.Elizabeth:Makes total sense. Listeners, send us questions if anything feels unclear! Another place diet culture collides with parenting is the pressure to give tweens and teens full responsibility for their food—packing lunches, making dinner—without any structure. Kids are still growing and busy; they need scaffolding.Tweens, Teens, and ScaffoldingAnna:Feeding oneself is a developmental task. We want kids to leave home able to feed themselves well, but we can't yank away all support in fifth or sixth grade. Instead we build autonomy gradually:* Elementary: You plate the snack, or give two choices.* Middle school: They prepare the snack; you nudge balance (“grab a fruit with that granola bar”).* High school: They pack their own food, but you ask, “What's your plan for snack before soccer?” and check that they actually have one.Elizabeth: And every child develops at their own pace. Some high-school seniors still benefit from a packed lunch. I make my senior's lunch because her schedule is packed. She sees what I pack, makes her own lunches on weekends, and will be fine in college.Anna: Exactly. Bottom line: “no lunch” isn't an option. If the parent truly can't help in the morning, brainstorm a Plan B—school lunch, or pre-packed foods like Uncrustables, chips, fruit, yogurt—so a balanced meal is always there.Short-Order Cooking & Parenting StylesElizabeth: Another common pitfall is short-order cooking—making a separate meal when a child refuses dinner.Anna: Right. That's permissive feeding. The child misses exposure to new foods and struggles later at a friend's house or the college dining hall.Anna:Think of the parenting-style continuum:* Authoritarian: “Clean your plate or no dessert.”* Permissive: “Fine, I'll make mac & cheese instead.”* Authoritative (goal): Structure and flexibility—serve one family meal with at least one familiar food, no pressure to clean plates.Ask yourself: Where am I now? What small step nudges me toward authoritative? Maybe you stop short-order cooking by ensuring a preferred side dish is on the table; over time you can phase that backup out.Elizabeth: And sometimes you will make the alternate meal—life happens—just aim for the overall pattern to support skill-building.Wrapping UpAnna: Notice any misalignment between your overall parenting style and feeding approach, then take one small step toward alignment. We'd love your questions—DM us on Instagram, comment on Substack, or email hello@sunnysideupnutrition.com.Elizabeth: Thanks for listening, and until next time!Anna: Bye.Anna: Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate it and write us a review wherever you listen. Go to Sunny Side Up Nutrition Podcast in your podcast app and scroll down to the stars. Also, we'd love for you to join our 12-module membership Take the Frenzy Out of Feeding. Visit sunnysideupnutrition.com and look for the Membership tab to join today. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit snutrition.substack.com

Episode 124 of the Long Covid Podcast is a chat with Dr Elizabeth So about East Asian Medicine. We take a deep dive into what EAM is and some of the background to it, as well as how it can help with conditions such as Long Covid - and why! This was such a fascinating discussion - we could have carried on for hours - and one of the biggest takeaways for me was the need to work together. That, and I've basically committed myself to trying Acupuncture now...Elizabeth's website: www.awakenacupuncturenyc.com For more information about Long Covid Breathing, their courses, workshops & other shorter sessions, please check out this link(music - Brock Hewitt, Rule of Life) Support the show~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Long Covid Podcast is self-produced & self funded. If you enjoy what you hear and are able to, please Buy me a coffee or purchase a mug to help cover costs.Transcripts are available on the individual episodes hereShare the podcast, website & blog: www.LongCovidPodcast.comFacebook @LongCovidPodcastInstagram & Twitter @LongCovidPodFacebook Support GroupSubscribe to mailing listPlease get in touch with feedback and suggestions or just how you're doing - I'd love to hear from you! You can get in touch via the social media links or at LongCovidPodcast@gmail.com**Disclaimer - you should not rely on any medical information contained in this Podcast and related materials in making medical, health-related or other decisions. Ple...

Are you ready to skyrocket your knowledge of Amazon PPC? In this TACoS Tuesday episode, prepare to be amazed as we bring you the secrets of the trade from none other than Elizabeth Greene, the co-founder of Amazon ads agency Junglr. Dive into the world of data analytics and learn why understanding the numbers behind the numbers is crucial. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned seller, we've got insights that are bound to give your Amazon PPC game a boost. We talk about the core strategies for launching new products, from using supplementary keywords to strategic ad placements. We uncover the importance of context when branching into new markets and how to leverage different keyword match types to target specific search terms. Learn about optimizing strategies for Black Friday and Cyber Monday, and how to manage your budget effectively during these peak seasons. Lastly, ignite your understanding of advertising for branded products on Amazon. We debate the significance of tracking the share of search and using Search Query Performance reports, and reveal our strategies for advertising for products with only a few relevant keywords. Tune in and take away valuable strategies and insights that will elevate your Amazon advertising game to new heights.   In episode 511 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Shivali and Elizabeth talk about: 00:00 - It's Time For Another TACoS Tuesday Episode! 05:34 - Evaluating and Auditing PPC Strategy  08:10 - Analyzing Ad Spend Efficiency and Impact 12:34 - Advertising Strategy and Keyword Targeting 17:45 - Advertising Strategy for New Product Launch 25:32 - Keyword Research Using Helium 10 30:51 - Using Keywords and Sales Volume 36:31 - Optimizing Bids for Better Ad Performance 42:22 - Control Ad Spend, Gain Campaign Impressions ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Shivali Patel: Today, on TACoS Tuesday, we answer all of your PPC questions live, as well as discuss what you could be doing in terms of launching and auditing your PPC campaigns during the Q4 season. Bradley Sutton: How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Want to enter in an Amazon keyword and then within seconds, get up to thousands of potentially related keywords that you could research. Then you need Magnet by Helium 10. For more information, go to h10.me/magnet. Magnet works in most Amazon marketplaces, including USA, Mexico, Australia, Germany, UK, India and much more. Shivali Patel: All right, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Series Dollars podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Shivali Patel, and this is the show that is our monthly TACoS Tuesday presentation, where we talk anything and everything Amazon ads. So today we have a special guest with us, and that is Elizabeth Greene, who is the co-founder of an Amazon ads agency called Junglr. So with that, let's go ahead and bring her up. Hi, Elizabeth, how are you? I'm doing well, how are you? Elizabeth: Very good. Shivali Patel: So, nice to have you on. Thank you for joining us. Elizabeth: Yeah, thanks for having me. These are always, always fun. Shivali Patel: And what an exciting time to be talking about Amazon ads to a fat. It's cute for you. Oh my goodness, you must be slammed. Elizabeth: Life is a little bit crazy right now, but you know it comes with the territory. Shivali Patel: So it does. It is peak season I see we have someone coming, so it's a very exciting time to be in business and I'm looking forward to reading your questions and hopefully having Elizabeth answer them Now. The first question here says what can you suggest for a beginner like me, who is just starting out, and what and where can I learn to grow as much as possible? Elizabeth: I would actually say there's two skills that one, in the beginning, none of us have, and they are skills and they can be learned, even though they're considered more quote, soft skills. Data analytics made it not as much. Shivali Patel: My two things are going to be. Elizabeth: Data analytics and communication skills Community Asian sales are, you're going to find, are quite important when it comes to management of accounts management of accounts that are not your own. So if you are, even if you're a brand manager in a company or, you know, obviously, at an agency seller and a sourcing person, okay then I'm going to go with data analytics. Data analytics are going to be your friend. The things that I've kind of discovered have been, like you know, sort of mind blowing. For me are the numbers behind, the numbers Meaning. So when you're trying to evaluate ACoS, right, a lot of people are like, oh, it costs one up, it costs with down. Great, I know this, I can look at the account. What the heck am I going to do about it? Data analytics really good data analytics not only tell you the what, but the why and then the what next. So you're, if you can get really really good at the why and the what next, that's going to really set you apart and the way that I kind of have come to it. This is my own personal journey. Maybe there's other people who are way smarter than me, have way better journeys, but for me it has been, again understanding the numbers behind the numbers to have, for example, right, you start in a little bit of a way, it's kind of like the matrix. Elizabeth: So when you're breaking down, say ACoS, right, you go, okay, ACoS one up, big, else one down. Why right, what the heck happened? You're like, oh, wait, I can calculate ACoS by ad spend divided by ad sales. Okay, so it's either that ad spend went up and sales remain consistent or went down, or ad sales went down and spend remain consistent. She like, oh, okay, there's those two variables. Okay, now I can say, okay, ad spend increased. And then I can go, okay, ad spend increased. Great, I know that why. And then you're like, okay, so I can calculate my ad spend by my cost per click, by my number of clicks. Elizabeth: So either my cost per click went up or the number of clicks happening in my account went up. And then you can look at those two variables and go, oh, okay, it's the number of clicks. Why? Oh, I just launched a whole bunch of new stuff. Okay, that's why. Or my cost per click went up exponentially. Why? Maybe you know, it's just a natural market change thing. Talking about prime time, peak season, now you're probably going to see cost per clicks going up. It's a market thing. Versus other times you might have aggressively increased a whole bunch of bits in your account and so then you go check back. So data analytics that's the way I view it. I am not classically trained on data analytics, I just have looked at it for over five years now and tried to figure out the what the heck is going on a question and the what to do about it questions, and so those. That's my way of sort of. I've learned to sort of peer into the matrix. So if you can get really good at understanding not just what the data is but what it's telling you, that's really going to get you to the next level. Shivali Patel: Definitely, and I think a lot of people have very different strategies. I think Elizabeth's strategy, you know, is definitely one you should take into consideration. But also, the best way to learn is going to be trial and error and until you're really sifting through your own data, I think it's going to be hard to you know gauge sort of what's happening. I think a lot of things in business are just as they come. Now I want to kind of take the other side of that and go into, let's say, somebody's not a beginner, right, somebody's been selling for a while. They're more established. What do you recommend to somebody who might be evaluating or trying to audit their own PPC strategy? Elizabeth: Next level is going to be evaluating things on a per product level. And let me clarify when I say per product, I mean per listing. The reason why is the data gets kind of funky when you pull it down to a skew level. You definitely can, but there's some nuances that you really want to be aware of that can kind of lead you in the wrong direction if you're looking at a per skewer, per child days and level. But if you can start looking at your ad strategy, your sales growth, everything through the lens of listings, that's really going to take you to the next level. Shivali Patel: So when you see listings, are you talking about maybe like the conversion metrics? Are you looking at the keywords that you're using, sort of what is like the underlying factors? I guess all the above. Elizabeth: Honestly, but to make sense of it all. Because, to your point, like force for the trees, if you look at like everything, then do you walk away being like I have no idea what in the world I'm supposed to focus on? So the way that we've begun looking at it and the reason why we started looking at it like this is because we managed several clothing accounts. Talk about complexity, talk about force for the trees. You're like where in the world do I start? And you want to make impact on these accounts. Right, you can't just like all right, I did my bit, adjustments and call it good. Like you really want to get at our hands dirty and like really start improving the accounts. But you're like where in the world do I focus? So what we've started doing is percentage of total have been a little bit of a game changer. They're not, it's not the newest thing on the block. A lot of people use this percentage of total, but the two things that we look at is the percentage of total sales of each. Again, we're talking about a listing level. Again, reason clothing you have up to hundreds of different SKUs on a per listing level. Like how the heck do you make sense of it. So how do we make sense of it is rolling it up to the parent listing level and then looking at the percentage of total ad spend, again on a per listing. Elizabeth: So this gives you a lot of clarity into what products are driving the most sales for the brand. And then, what products are we spending, are we investing the most ad spend on? And when you look at it this way, it's very common to have these things happen in the account. If you haven't been paying attention to them, you oftentimes will see like oh wow, this product's driving 2% of my total sales volume and I'm spending 10% of my total ad spend here. Like that's probably a discrepancy. Maybe I should go and adjust those ads. So that gives you a lot of clarity. And then to court of gauge because again we're an ad agency, so ads are the thing that we focus on the most to help and drive improvements for the brands is we will look at the impact of the total spend on that per product. So again, percentage of total ad spend, and then we'll look at what we call like quote ad spend efficiencies, meaning ACoS, Total ACoS, ad sale percentage, also the delta between your ad conversion rate and your total conversion rate. Our unit session percentage is actually really helpful gauge. And so we're like, okay, we're investing most of our dollars here. How is our efficiency on that large investment? Elizabeth: And then you can sort of pinpoint like, oh, wow, I'm investing most of my ad spend into this product, to the point of like 5% of total brand sales, 13% of total ad spend investments. And wow, the ad spend investments are really unprofitable. Now, if you're in a launch phase, there might I mean there's context that you need to add to the numbers, to the point of like telling the story with data. And if you're managing the brand, you probably know the context. But at least it goes as okay. So here's two products we should dig into more. Here's two products we need to probably invest more of our ad spend on. And it really starts to clarify things when you really kind of understand how to see the picture in that way. Shivali Patel: To kind of follow up on that how do you really end up deciding which keywords to go after, as well as, maybe, how to really structure them into campaigns in accordance with your budget, because I know that's different for everyone? Elizabeth: Yes, it definitely is. We will always focus on relevancy first in the beginning. Now there are certain times if you're doing like a brand awareness play or you're like, wow, I've really targeted my market and I need to branch out, like what's the next hill? Absolutely go after categories, you know like, go after those brand awareness plays. But if you're in the beginning and you're in a launch, the nuance of Amazon advertising is you're not building, you don't build the audience. Amazon has built the audience for you. Elizabeth: All we're looking to do is use specific keywords or search terms to get in front of the audience that is already existing and that's where relevancy comes in. So you're saying where is my specific shopper? What are they using to search for products like mine? And I need to make sure I'm showing up there. So we're always going to prioritize that. That typically is going to get you better conversions, you know, better clicks, more interactions with your brand and which leads to more sales. And then also on the flip side, and if you're doing this on launch, it is a really good product sort of evaluation, because if you're showing up exactly in front of your target shoppers and your click rate is terrible and your conversion rate is terrible and like nobody's buying, there's probably a signal that maybe there's things to adjust with the listing or other factors that you should look into. Shivali Patel: Do you ever go into, like branch into, I guess, supplementary keywords where maybe it's not exactly for the product but it's maybe like a related product, and where do you really place those sort of ads? Elizabeth: Yeah, so when we'll do it is really dependent on the overall performance and the ads spend or profit goals, right? I mean, it seems so stupid, simple, but if you are advertising more, you're going to be spending more, and if you're struggling to bring down Total ACoS or ACoS again, ad spend divided by ad sales, the one thing you can control with ads is ad spend. So in those cases when we're looking to bring down Total ACoS, we're typically looking at pulling back on ad spend. So if a product or brand is in that phase, I'm not going to be like let's launch all these broad things and we're not quite sure how they're going to convert, right? So context is really key here, but when it comes to branching out, it really is dependent. Elizabeth: You will find certain products on launch where, like, for some reason, it's really difficult to convert on the highly relevant terms but, like adjacent markets or, to your point, like somewhat related keywords or related products, actually work really well. So we're always going to prioritize what's working. So if we're like finding all of these search terms that are popping up through, like, say, broad match or autos or something, wow, we weren't aware that this is actually a really great market for us. But it's very obvious, looking at the data, that's something that we should, that's a direction we should go in. Then obviously we'll push towards that direction. But depending on if we're going to like decide to branch out on our own, it probably is highly dependent on the ad spend and then also sort of the phase of the product, meaning like how we kind of conquered everything and what's our next play. Shivali Patel: And in terms of when you are launching, yes, we're going for the most relevant keywords, right, that are where you can find your target audience. But what about in terms of exact match, like yes, are you going directly into exact match and auto and broad all at the same time? Are you just kind of doing exact first and then branching into auto? Elizabeth: Yeah, so we do like exact first. I'm still a huge fan of like all the above, exact phrase and broad. The one thing that we have found is like within your exact match, you can just be more specific on what search pages you're spending your ad dollars on. So if you, especially if you have limited budgets in the beginning and you're like, hey, I really want to make sure that I hyper target these keywords, exact match makes a lot of sense. Now, if you're talking about you like branching out, we're still going to prioritize putting a higher bids on our exact match keyword. So we're still going to try and have most of. Elizabeth: Let me say this if you're going to be aggressively spending on a specific search page, you're like I've identified this keyword, this is my ranking keyword, I'm going to put a lot of budget behind it. Exact match all the way. Now I don't want anyone to say that clip and be like wow, she hates broad and freight. Like, no, I love all the above. Like we run autos, run multiple autos, category targeting, like all the above, do it. But if you're trying to get really aggressive with something, it's just it's the nature of how the match type works more than like it's quote best, because they don't really think it is. Shivali Patel: Now I do see that we have some new questions, so let me go ahead and pop them up. We have can you give a refresher on how people can do modifiers, since nowadays exact sometimes performs as phrase match and phrase sometimes is like broad. So if someone wants to make sure that an exact is that exact two word phrase is adding plus in the middle self that. Elizabeth: Yes, it does, but caveat, it only officially does in sponsor brand ads. If you look at the document, I mean I gotta go check it because they're like they keep updating the documentation on the slide and like not notifying us. But from my understanding and from the reps I've talked to, and also the search storm reports, I've seen modified broad match I don't believe a hundred percent works all the time in sponsored product ads, which is super annoying. So for those of you listening who are unaware of what a modified broad match is or modified search terms, modified broad match is a thing in sponsor brand ads. So the way that broad match keywords work in sponsored brand ads and they have sense care that over to sponsor product ads is that it cannot only target. You know we do classic broad match, right, you can put keywords in the middle, you can swap stuff around. But like if I had the keyword running shoe, right, both the word running and the word shoe must be present in the search term for your kind of traditional sponsor product broad match. It's not the case anymore. Elizabeth: You can target what's called related keywords. So for example, one would be like sneaker, right, it's kind of related to running shoe. And if you wanna say. I stuck a screenshot out on LinkedIn not that long ago and I was like, how is this relevant? Like one of them, it was like targeting like a bread knife and the search term that it triggered was like ballerina farm, go figure, I don't know, but like, so you can get like this really weird, funky stuff. So what we do to kind of combat that one, just keep up on your negatives these days, like, keep a sharp eye on your search and reports and add those negatives. Elizabeth: But the one thing that you can do is just sort of like to Bradley's point make each those individual words have to show up is if, in front of each of those words that you want to make sure are present in the search term, you can add a little plus symbol. So in the example of like, say running shoes, I would say plus shoes, plus what is our running whatever? Plus running, plus shoes, right, and then that would trigger to the algorithm. Okay, you have to use these things inside of your searches, which again is a factor in sponsored brand ads. If you look at the documentation, they do say that modified broad match is a thing and it's been a thing for a while. I just hasn't been super popular. But I haven't read documentation that they've rolled that over into sponsored product ads. I don't think it's a bad idea to get in the practice of using modified broad match and sponsored product ads though. Shivali Patel: Okay, thank you for answering that question. We also have another one that says I'm going to be launching a brand new store for FBA and Shopify for my own manufactured product. What will you suggest that I do for the first few months? Elizabeth: Well, I'm gonna assume that the question is saying, with ads because that's my area of expertise like new product launches, there's a lot. So definitely follow @HumanTank because they way more than just add advice to offer you. But as far as the advertising, I would prioritize keyword research for the product launches. That actually would be really helpful when you're trying to vet even the space for your particular products. And then I would again, I would hyper focus on relevancy in the beginning. I would run that in exact match, probably high bids. Elizabeth: In the beginning you're looking for two things. You're looking to get eyeballs on your product, ideally those eyeballs conferring to sales that is remain to be seen, based on how appealing your product is to the market and how good your search pages et cetera. But you want to get eyeballs in the product and then you want to use those eyeballs to sort of vet again how much these shoppers like your particular product for purchase. So that's what I do. I would focus on those again for like the first couple weeks is typically what we do, and then you might sort of branch out into phrase match run, auto campaigns et cetera. Now here's a trick is how many keywords you choose in the beginning to launch is actually going to be determined by your budgets. So I have seen so many sellers in the groups like they'll be like oh my gosh, I just launched and launched my ads and I'm spending like $1,000 a day and I can't afford it and I don't know what's going on. Again, it's simple, kind of seems like stupid logic but the more keywords you're advertising on, the more clicks you're gonna get, the more cost per clicks you're gonna pay, the higher ads spent. So you actually want to factor in what you're doing for your launch strategy with your budgets. Elizabeth: Like I just got off a client call and we're like all right, we have these new product launches. Yeah, it's a really competitive space. It's like skincare. We're not gonna have reviews in the beginning. You know what? In the beginning we're gonna keep ad budgets really lean and we have a really good brand recognition. We're just gonna leverage brand recognition because we know the conversion rates are gonna be there. It's gonna help us get the initial products. But we also are understanding that if that's the strategy we're running again a little bit more limited, just leveraging brand lower budgets we're not expecting the sales to be exponential in the beginning. So it's like setting expectations and then kind of understanding what makes sense for you at this stage. Shivali Patel: Okay, and, keeping that in mind, the review portion that you're mentioning, right, yeah, you end up like, let's say, for example I'm not sure if I'll pronounce it right, but in Sweat's example right, his question when he's launching, do you end up waiting for the reviews to file in before you are running those ads or do you end up just kind of going in? And of course, there's many moving components, yeah, there's a lot of moving parts. Elizabeth: It depends on what the brand's wants to do. Typically we will start running stuff out of the gate Again. We just kind of set expectations. The reason why ACoS is so high in the beginning is for two reasons. One, your conversion rate tends to be a little bit lower and then, two, your cost per clicks tend to be a little bit higher because you really are trying to get aggressive to be able to get that visibility on the product and then over time, ideally, conversion rates improve because you get more reviews and then cost per clicks hopefully go down as you optimize. So between those two things, that helps it get better. So we just set expectations with like hey, because conversion rates are low means it takes more clicks to convert, which means ACoS is gonna be a little bit higher and we expect potentially sales not to be still or out of the gate. Sometimes it'll be surprised. Sometimes you launch a product and you're like, wow, this is amazing, this thing just absolutely took off and I hope for all of you listening, that is the case for you and your new products, but it's not always the case. So it's really more setting expectations and then just deciding what makes sense for you. Shivali Patel: Why would someone create like a branded campaign If they've already have their standard stuff? Do you maybe want to talk a little bit about branded campaigns? Elizabeth: Yeah, there's two kinds of branded campaigns. One is considered branded, or maybe brand defense is what you might call it. One of them is you have a whole bunch of products. Which you might do is you would advertise your own products on your other listings. The goal of that is you'd be like, hey, if somebody is going to click off, they might as well click onto my own product. Again, it's called a defensive strategy because you're plugging people off and refer to it. It's like plugging the ad spots. My competition can't get this ad spot on my listing. The other thing that you might do is if you have any branded searches happening so people searching your brand on Amazon then what you can do is you can again advertise your own products. Elizabeth: There's a lot of debate out there. They're like, oh, if I already have people searching for my brand, why in the world would I be spending on it? Because they're going to convert for my brand anyways. Yeah, there's arguments to be made. The things that you can do is you actually track your share of search in using search query performance reports to look at your own branded traffic and be like am I losing out on sales through my branded traffic? That's something you can do if you want to be like, is it worth it for me to run? But the second thing and the one I was referring to when I was talking about that more specific launch that we're doing is if you have great brand recognition meaning there's a lot of people searching for your brand you've already built up a lot of traffic to your current listings and you have a new product that fits very well into that brand. Elizabeth: So example I just gave was we have a brand that has a skincare line. Right, they have their launching complimentary products. They have really good repeat purchase rates. What we can do is for people searching their brand, we can make sure that the new products are then advertised and show up high on their branded search, where they might show up lower before if we weren't leveraging ads for that. And then what happens is someone's typing in the brand like oh, wow, there's a new product from this brand. Awesome, and most likely not always, but of course you know you read the data, but most likely you're going to get people purchasing very similar. You know you can use ads to be able to get visibility again on your own products, but you're using your new offering. So that's kind of a way to like. If you have a good brand, share to be like. Hey, I got a new product. I want to try it out using ads. Shivali Patel: Got it, and I see Sasha has a question here, and it is what's the best way to research Amazon keywords for low competition products? And I'll go ahead and add as well what do you do in the case if, let's say, there is not necessarily a market, maybe it's a brand new product that doesn't end up having any sort of crossover? You're creating a sub niche. Elizabeth: Yes, those are the most difficult. The two most difficult products to advertise for are one to your point of like there really is no relevant traffic for it. Or two, when you only have one keyword that has any search volume and there's like nothing else besides one or two keywords, because every single one of your competitors knows those one or two keywords and there's really not anything else to choose from. So there's not really a way to like play a sophisticated game. You just got to like grin and bear it in those categories, which is like kind of painful sometimes. So reword I mean your keyword research is really going to be exactly the same as for any other product. You're going to be looking at your competitors, seeing what they rank you for. I mean, we use Helium 10, love Helium 10, just did a walkthrough of how we did keyword research using Helium 10. Like it's a really great tool. Elizabeth: The one different way that we have of generating your first keyword. We actually generate two keyword less in the beginning. So what we'll do is we'll use, say, like a commonly searched keyword. So a lot of times people will start with like all right, type in a commonly searched keyword and then like, look at the ranked competitors, choose them, you know, choose the relevant ones and then go through that. What we will do is we will take that first you know pretty general keyword that we're pretty sure is relevant to the products, and what we'll do is we'll type that into. Elizabeth: I'm going to get them mixed up. I'm going to say it's magnet, it's the keyword research tool, so you type it in and then you look at search, so you sort by search volume and what we'll do is we'll actually go down that first list and find what we call our highest search volume, most relevant keyword. So what you're looking for is the intersection between where you actually have good shop or search, and it is also relevant to your product, because the more hyper relevant you get to the product, typically speaking, not always the lower your search volume is going to be. On those keywords You're like all right, what's my top of the mountain? Because oftentimes people will be like, oh, metal cup, that's a great keyword, yes, but it's not highly relevant keyword. So you're looking for, like women's metal cup for running or something like is there a good search volume there? How can I like niche down a set? And then what we'll do is we'll take that search page for a highly relevant keyword and use that as our springboard to find our top competitors. Shivali Patel: So we do also have a question from David where he asks how would you use not sure what that's supposed to say for top competitive keywords when your product have multiple attributes such as gold diamond ring, gold solid hair ring and engagement rings should I run through, bro, on each? I'm assuming that's just supposed to be. How would you search for top competitive keywords? So? Yeah so I would, I would just look for. Elizabeth: I would look for whatever is the highest relevancy, highest search volume, one that's going to give it and you're going to have a lot of applicable keywords. So the walkthrough that I did I think it's just yesterday what we did is we were looking at baby blanket, and what we start doing with our final keyword list when we're looking again we're prioritizing relevancy is you will find what we call buckets of keywords, right. So when I was doing baby blanket, it was like girls receiving blanket, receiving blanket for boys, like some like okay, there's a bunch of girl keywords and their bunch of boy keywords and these are actually a little bit related to specific variations. You can start getting really sophisticated with it. But as you do that keyword research and as you're looking for that relevancy, you're probably going to find a lot of these buckets. So what we'll do on launch is we'll like take our group out and be like okay, so to your point, we have a bunch of diamond keywords. Elizabeth: Oh wait, I have a bunch of solitary keywords, right. So you can actually group those. I can take all my solitary ones and be like hmm, I wonder if the search term solitaire is. I wonder if people like my product in relation to that search. Okay, so let me take that out. Let me put those in their own campaign. I'll label the campaign like solitary keywords or something and then I would advertise the products there or engagement ranks, right, okay, maybe that's applicable to my products. Let me again pull those out and put them in a subgroup and a campaign. The reason why I like doing this is because then I can just scan campaign manager instead of having to like go in and like, look at a campaign with, like the solitaire keywords, engagement ring keywords, gold, diamond keywords. I can be like, oh, these are sub group in campaigns and then when I'm in campaign manager, I can simply look at how each of those three campaigns are performing and be like oh, wow, it seems like gold, diamond ring keywords actually perform best and you still want to analyze at a keyword level. But that makes it a little bit more scalable to like understand shop or search behavior in relation to your product. Shivali Patel: Now I see that David also would like to know about the filter for keyword sales filter, which it is essentially just telling you on average how many sales occur for that particular keyword every single month. So that's really what you're looking at there, but, Elizabeth, maybe you want to expand on whether that's something that you end up looking at when you're doing your keyword research for these different brands that you work with. Elizabeth: I don't really Everything honest. The two things that I look at actually probably three things is I would like to look at. We look at numbers to the count of competitors that are ranking again, because we're doing that whole like find, you know, do the first list to find the second keyword, to find the really really super specific products. So if you can find good super specific products, then you can kind of like use their ranking on the keywords. So actually I love that Helium 10 added in that column because it was one that a lot of us were like calculating. Elizabeth: When I'm like God, I don't have to do the formula, I just already filter for the list, so it's really awesome. So we'll download that list and then you know, we'll just see what's the highly relevant and the kind of cross check that with search volume you can use. I don't think it's a bad idea to use, you know, kind of like the sales volume, because sometimes what you'll find is that even though there's like a high search volume, if the keyword is sort of like a little bit broader keyword, you might actually not have as much sales volume through those keywords as you would think. So it's not a bad idea to analyze it at all. We just find if we're like again, we're super honed in on that relevancy factor, then we tend to come up with the ones that have better sales volume anyways. Shivali Patel: Okay, I think that's really, really insightful. We also have Sergio. Sergio, do you like to use the same keywords for each campaign in broad phrase, and exact campaigns? Elizabeth: I do. I would say the one sort of not qualifier would put on it, the one thing you should be aware of. I would recommend keeping the bids lower in the broad and the phrase match. I don't always agree with Amazon's recommendations, but if you listen to their recommendations on this, they actually recommend that you keep it lower. Shivali Patel: And Sasha has a question. If I was to start selling a product that has a monthly volume of 60,000 units a month, how should I position myself? Should I run out? Elizabeth: I would first want to know how the product performs. That's your first goal. You want to figure out what your average cost per click is and you want to figure out what your actual conversion rate is. Once you have those factors, you can actually start building production models and sales production models and stuff. Actually, it's not hard to build or not search. You want to search traffic production models based on oh, I want to hit $50,000 a month in products, this is my conversion rate. What you need is you need your conversion rates. You really need your conversion rates is the main one, and then you're going to need your cost per clicks in the ads to be like all right, this is what it's going to cost me. Right now, you're going off of nothing. I know I've said it about 20 different times on this live, but I'm going to say it again relevancy, focus on your exact target market, see what your numbers tell you, and then you can build up from there. Shivali Patel: I think that's a good plan, so hopefully that is helpful for you. Sasha, I see we have Sweat's leaving, but he has found the response was informative. Now I wanted to touch on something we talked about at the beginning of this call, which is Q4, right, we've been talking a little bit about auditing your strategy and some general PPC knowledge, but also what about, I'm sure a lot of you guys that are watching? If you're already selling, then you probably aren't full swing. Maybe you've already gone ahead and optimized your listings for Q4. But what happens if maybe somebody is just starting to be like oh no, I completely dropped the ball? Do you have? Hopefully, not Hopefully, none of you guys are in that position, but let's say something like that happens, sort of maybe if you have a take on what somebody can do to make sure that they're still able to tap in on Q4's potential. Elizabeth: Yeah, so we're assuming it's a brand new launch product and we have nothing. Shivali Patel: We can assume that they've been selling for a while, but they haven't changed anything for Q4. Elizabeth: Got it, got it, got it. Ok, no, that's fine. So I would say if you're already selling, most likely you probably have some ad structure. You're not in a bad spot. Ok, q4, right before Black Friday, December and Monday, we're not launching a whole bunch of test campaigns. Don't do it, because what happens is Black Friday, Cyber Mondays Really, what you're doing, you don't get same. Elizabeth: I know there's not really data available, but honestly, nobody's really looking at that. An inside campaign manager. You're not going to be able to say, oh OK, I got 20. My ACOS was so much better this last hour, so let me increase these budgets, right? What you have to do is you have to look back at historical data. So if you want to test anything, do it before this week is out. Get those campaigns up, get that data, because you're going to be completely flying blind If you launched a bunch of stuff a day before. You're completely flying blind on performance metrics and it's so easy because of how many clicks are happening on the platform to really lose your shirt. So I would say, if you're like oh my gosh, I don't have any specific campaign set up for Black Friday, so that's fine, you're actually in a really good spot. So what you want to do these weeks leading up to it you actually still have time you want to go into your account and you want to evaluate what is working now, what is crushing it right now, and then I'm going to make sure, as that traffic comes in, that those have good budgets. I have healthy bids on them. Elizabeth: To be honest, days of for the most part, unless we have a really specific keyword on a very specific brand, they're like we have to be aggressive when we must win top of search for this particular keyword. For the most part, we're adjusting budgets. Day of is our typical optimizations. So what we're doing prior to that is we're like all right, if we're going to be increasing budgets, we want to make sure that all of this is super solid. So you're doing two things. One, you're identifying all the stuff that really works and you're like all right, I need to make sure again, budgets are healthy, bids are healthy, all my optimizations are done. And then the second thing we're doing and this is also very important is what is all the stuff that's not working, meaning Clips with no Sales? Where are all my high costs, low sale keywords going on? Here's a good one. What are all my untested stuff, that I've just been increasing bids. So it's so easy. Elizabeth: If you're like normal optimizations, right, we're going to go in what has no impressions, increase the bids. We do this as well. It is not a bad practice. What often happens, especially if you don't have any caps so we have caps, we're like, all right, we're never going to increase past x amount of dollars or whatever If you don't have any caps. Sometimes what happens is you're like you can end up with like $10 bids. Elizabeth: So what I would recommend doing go into your targeting tab. I would filter for everything with zero orders, or you could just leave it totally blank, sort by the bid what has the highest bid in your account and you might look at it and be like holy crap, I had no idea that was in there. And what you want to do is what we call a bid reset. So you're just looking at all this stuff and you're like, hey, it's not getting any impressions. Anyways, it's not going to hurt me if I lower my bids, but then at least I know when that traffic hits all of a sudden that random keyword that didn't have any search volume, that I had like $10 bid on. It's not going to like pop off and waste all of my ad budgets. Elizabeth: There's another filter that is really helpful to identify the irrelevant stuff. I'm not saying pause all these things. I'm saying use this filter to bring to the top everything that you're like how the heck did that get in there? Because it's super easy. When we're looking in our search term reports we're like, oh, this converted once. Let me go test it Again. Great practice. What happens is sometimes you get these random things in the account so easy for it to happen. So what you do is you go again. Targeting tab is going to be your friend here. You're going to want to filter for anything that has what is it? Zero clicks, zero, maybe once, two clicks. Elizabeth: We're looking for impressions. It has probably at least 1,000 impressions on it and you want to filter the click-through rate by anything that is lower than maybe a 0.2 or 0.15. So this says it's got a lot of impressions, it's not really doing anything in terms of sales volume and it's got really bad click-through rates. And then sort that by either your click-through rates highest or lowest to highest, or you can maybe start by impressions, highest to lowest. So what you're trying to do is what it has a bunch of eyeballs that nobody cares about and what you're doing is that brings up. Elizabeth: So a lot of people saw it. Not. A lot of people clicked on it, which oftentimes means irrelevant stuff, and because it's only got a couple clicks, there's not a lot of data, so it hasn't moved into our optimization sequences. So again, it's just a once over of the account. The first time you do this you'll probably be like what the heck, why is that there? And then, if you find that great pause, it put low bids on it, just kind of. Again, we're doing clean up. If you don't find anything that doesn't make sense for you, conkudos to. You're doing really, really good targeting. But either way, it's a really good thing to give it a once over before again traffic hits and things kind of go crazy. Shivali Patel: Now we do also have your keyword sale filter. Says 89 with low search volume, and another keyword has 20 keyword sales but a higher search volume. Is there one that you would kind of opt for? I know you said you don't typically look at the keyword sales Filter. Elizabeth: Yeah. So the two things I would look for is one I'm gonna say again, relevancy. I believe in it so strongly, I'm gonna say it again. And then the other thing that you would look at is, you know, the Helium sandwich. Again, another thing that I appreciate that you guys have added to the download keyword reports is the Recommended bits. Now, again, you guys are pulling them direct from the API, like Amazon does provide the recommended bits. However, as we all know, like if you go in you launch campaign, you like add different products, the recommended bids change, so their benchmarks don't take them as gospel, but they are really helpful to again kind of help you identify how competitive a particular keyword is over the other. So, like a budget's were concerned, you're like, well, you know, this one has like 20 sale, like the sales volume is pretty good, but like, wow, that one's Really competitive. I got to pay two dollars cost per click versus the other one where I'm like, well, I only have to pay like 50 cents cost per click. That probably would play into my decision. Shivali Patel: Okay, all right, there's. I know I said to, but let's just do this last one and then we'll. We'll call it. And so how do you structure your top keyword campaigns versus your complementary keywords? I know we briefly touched on this earlier. Elizabeth: Yeah, so I will cash with. So I saying I'm not a huge fan of doing everything as a single keyword campaign. I think it's way too overkill. You end up getting way more confused than you do in sight From doing it like that. That being said, if we do, I definitely have like a top keyword. We are going to put that in a single keyword, exact, match, specific campaign. The sort of it depends Questions and answers that I always give is the more the higher amount of Control I need over where I'm going to be directing my ad spend, the less keywords I want to have. Then more important it is for me to gain impressions on this keyword. For, again, for my campaign strategy, the less keywords I'm going to have. So if it is a top keyword, if it's my main ranking keyword, if it's super, super important to me, single keyword campaign right, because that's I need to control ad spend. I need a lot of impressions on this and super, super important versus another keyword set, right. Maybe I don't really have it. So the other, very other end of the spectrum is going to be like a whole bunch of a Campaign that actually works really well. Elizabeth: For us is single word meaning, like you know, cup bowl dish In broad match low bits. Do not put high-pits on these. Even if you have great ACoS, don't put high bits. Not a good idea. But we'll run these all the time. But what happens is because we cap our bids at, say, I think it's from 25 cents, maybe 30 cents, maybe in 15 cents. We never intend to grow our bids past that, right. Elizabeth: So how is it important for me to control ad spend at the campaign level? Not really because I'm controlling it at my bid level, right. How important is it for me to gain impressions? Not really because I'm expecting half of these keywords to not get impressions whatever. So I would be fine with putting, you know, say, 50, 100 keywords in that campaign, right, because for me it makes no sense to create 10 different campaigns that I have to like keep an eye on, versus just one important like oh yeah, that's that strategy and that's kind of like my background thing, right. So I would look at it through that lens again. How important is it for me to control spend at the campaign level? And then, how important is it for me to gain Impressions on these particular keywords? The more infatily you answer yes to those two questions, the less keywords you should have in that campaign. The more you don't really care about those two things, or they don't really matter as much then I would be okay with a lot more keywords. Shivali Patel: Alright, well, wonderful. Thank you so much, Elizabeth, for your time and your information, your knowledge. We appreciate it. I know a lot of people learned quite a bit. Sasha says thank you. We have sweat who says you know he was also waiting on those other questions that you were answering. That was very informative, so we do appreciate it so much. And yeah, that is it for today. You guys will catch you on the next TACoS Tuesday. Thank you! Elizabeth: Awesome! Thanks, I appreciate it.

In this episode, we cover: Introduction (00:00) Elizabeth, AppLand, and AppMap (1:00) Why build AppMap (03:34) Being open-source (06:40) Building community  (08:50) Some tips on using AppMap (11:15) Links Referenced: VS Code Marketplace: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=appland.appmap JetBrains Marketplace: https://plugins.jetbrains.com/plugin/16701-appmap AppLand: https://appland.com TranscriptElizabeth: “Whoa.” [laugh]. That's like getting a map of all of the Planet Earth with street directions for every single city, across all of the continents. You don't need that; you just want to know how to get to the nearest 7/11, right? Like, so just start small. [laugh]. Don't try and map your entire universe, galaxy, you know, out of the gate. [laugh].Jason: Welcome to another episode of Build Things on Purpose, part of the Break Things on Purpose podcast. In our build episodes, we chat with the engineers and developers who create tools that help us build and operate modern applications. In this episode, Elizabeth Lawler joins us to chat about the challenges of building modern, complex software, and the tool that she's built to help developers better understand where they are and where they're going.Jason: Today on the show, we have Elizabeth Lawler who's the founder of a company called AppLand, they make a product called AppMap. Welcome to the show, Elizabeth.Elizabeth: Thank you so much for having me, Jason.Jason: Awesome. So, tell us a little bit more about AppLand and this product that you've built. What did you build?Elizabeth: Sure. So, AppMap is a product that we're building in the open. It's a developer tool, so it's free and open-source. And we call it Google Maps for code. You know, I think that there has been a movement in more assistive technologies being developed—or augmenting technologies being developed for developers, and with some of the new tools, we were looking to create a more visual and interactive experience for developers to understand the runtime of their code better when they code.So, it's interesting how a lot of the runtime of an application when you're writing it or you're actually crafting it is sort of in your imagination because it hasn't yet been. [laugh]. And so, you know, we wanted to make that information apparent and push that kind of observability left so that people could see how things were going to work while they're writing them.Jason: I love that idea of seeing how things are working while you're writing it because you're so right. You know, when I write code, I have a vision in mind, and so, like, you mentally kind of scaffold out here are the pieces that I need and how they'll fit together. And then as you write it, you naturally encounter issues, or things don't work quite as you expect, and you tweak those. And sometimes that idea or the concept in your head gets a little fuzzy. So, having a tool that actually shows you in real-time seems like an extremely valuable tool.Elizabeth: Thank you. Yes. And I think you've nailed how it's not always the issue of dependency, it's really the issue of dependent behavior. And that dependent behavior of other services or code you're interacting with is the hardest thing to imagine while you're writing because you're also focusing on feature and functionality. So, it's really a fun space to work in, and crafting out that data, thinking about what you would need to present, and then trying to create an engaging experience around that has been a really fun journey that the team has been on since 2020. We announced the project in 2021 in March—I think almost about this time last year—and we have over 13,000 users of AppMap now.Jason: That's incredible. So, you mentioned two things that I want to dive into. One is that it's open-source, and then the second—and maybe we'll start there—is why did you build this? Is this something that just was organic; you needed a tool for yourself, or… what was the birth of AppMap?Elizabeth: Oh, I think that's such a great question because I think it was—this is the third startup that I've been in, third project of this kind, building developer tooling. My previous company was a cybersecurity company; before that, I helped build applications in the healthcare sector. And before that, I worked in government and healthcare. And—also, again, building platforms and IT systems and applications as part of my work—and creating a common understanding of how software operates—works—understanding and communicating that effectively, and lowering that kind of cognitive load to get everybody on the same page is such a hard problem. I mean, when we didn't all work from home, we had whiteboards [laugh] and we would get in the room and go through sprint review and describe how something was working and seeing if there was anything we could do to improve quality, performance, reliability, scalability, functionality before something shipped, and we did it as a group, in-person. And it's very difficult to do that.And even that method is not particularly effective because you're dealing with whiteboards and people's mental models and so we wanted to, first of all, create something objective that would show you really how things worked, and secondly, we wanted to lower the burden to have those conversations with yourself. Or, you know, kind of rubber ducky debugging when something's not working, and also with the group. So, we created AppMaps as both interactive visualizations you could use to look at runtime, debug something, understand something better, but also something that could travel and help to make communication a lot easier. And that was the impetus, you know, just wanting to improve our own group understanding.Jason: I love that notion of not just having the developer understand more, but that idea of yeah, we work in teams and we often have misalignment simply because people on different sides of the application look at things differently. And so this idea of, can we build a tool that not only helps an individual understand things, but gets everybody on the same page is fantastic.Elizabeth: And also work in different layers of the application. For example, many observability tools are very highly focused on network, right? And sometimes the people who have the view of the problem, aren't able to articulate it clearly or effectively or expeditiously enough to capture the attention of someone who needs to fix the problem. And so, you know, I think also having—we've blended a combination of pieces of information into AppMap, not only code, but also web services, data, I/O, and other elements and so that we can start to talk more effectively as groups.Jason: That's awesome. So, I think that collaboration leads into that second thing that I brought up that I think is really interesting is that this is an open-source project as well. And so—Elizabeth: It is.Jason: Tell me more about that. What's the process? Because that's always, I think, a challenge is this notion of we love open-source, but we're also—we work for companies, we like to get paid. I like to get paid. [laugh]. So, how does that work out and what's that look like as you've gone on this journey?Elizabeth: Yeah. You know, I think we think quietly working are certainly looking for other fellow travelers who are interested in this space. We started by creating an open data framework—which AppMap is actually both the name of a code editor extension you can install and use to see the runtime of your code to understand issues and find a fix them faster, but it also is a data standard. And with that data standard, we're really looking to work with other people. Because, you know, I think this type of information should be widely accessible for people and I think it should be available to understand.I think, you know, awareness about your software environment is just kind of like a basic developer right. And so, [laugh] you know, the reason why we made the tools free, and the reason why we've made the data structure open-source is to be able to encourage people to get the kind of information that they need to do their job better. And by making our agents open-source, by making our clients open-source, it simply allows people to be able to find and adopt this kind of tooling to improve their own job performance. And so, you know, that was really kind of how we started and I think, ultimately, you know, there are opportunities to provide commercial products, and there will be some coming down the road, but at the moment, right now we're really interested in working with the community and, you know, understanding their needs better.Jason: That's awesome. Number one, I love the embrace of, you know, when you're in the startup land, there's the advice, have never tried to monetize too early, right? Build something that's useful that people enjoy and really value, and then it'll naturally come. The other question that I had is, I'm assuming you eat your own dog food, slash drink your own champagne. So, I'm really curious, like, one of the problems that I've had in open-source is the onboarding of new community members, right? Software is complex, and so people often have troubles, and they're like, how do I fix this? They file an issue on GitHub or whatever system you're using, and there's sometimes a notion with open-source of like, that's a good thing that you called out. You can fix that because it's open-source, but people are like, “I don't know how.”Elizabeth: Yeah.Jason: Does AppMap actually help in enabling AppMap open-source contributors? Like, have you seen that?Elizabeth: So, we've had issues filed. I would say that most of the fixes still come from us. If people wanted to run AppMap on AppMap to identify the bug, [laugh] that would be great, but it doesn't really work that way. So, you know, for us at this time, most of it is community filed issues and that we are working to resolve. But I do think—and I will say—that we have actually used AppMap on open-source projects that we use, and we've found [laugh] flaws and bugs using AppMap with those projects, and have filed issues with them. [laugh].Jason: That's awesome. I love that. I mean, that's what it means to be an open-source, right, and to use open-source is that notion of, like—Elizabeth: Right.Jason: Contribute wherever you can.Elizabeth: Yeah. And if that's the way, you know, we can contribute, you know—and I think similarly, I mean, our relationship to open-source is very strong. So, for example, you know, we came from the Ruby community and there's lots of different kinds of open-source projects that are commonly used for things like security and authentication and we've done a lot of work in our own project to tag and label those commonly-used libraries so that they can be—when you pop open an AppMap everything is all beautiful and tagged and, you know, very nicely and neatly organized for you so you can find everything you're looking for. Similarly, we're working with open-source communities in Python and Java and now JavaScript to do the same thing, which is, you know, to make sure that important information, important commonly used libraries and tools are called out clearly.Jason: So, as you're adding more languages, you're going to get more users. So, that brings me to our final question. And that's, as you get all these new users, they probably need some guidance. So, if you were to give some users tips, right? Someone goes out there, like, “I want to use AppMap,” what's some advice that you'd give them related to reliability? How can they get the best experience and build the best code using AppMap?Elizabeth: Yes. So, this has actually been a key piece of feedback, I think, from the community for us, which is, we released this tool out to the world, and we said, “We're going to bring here; we come with gifts of observability in your code editor.” And people have used it for all kinds of different projects: They've used it for refactoring projects, for debugging, for onboarding to code, for all of these different use cases, but one of the things that can be overwhelming is the amount of information that you get. And I think this is true of most kinds of observability tools; you kind of start with this wall of data, and you're like, “Where am I going to start?”And so my recommendation is that AppMap is best used when you have a targeted question in mind, not just kind of like, you know, “I'd like to understand how this new piece of the codebase works. I've shifted from Team A to Team B, and I need to onboard to it.” “I'd like to figure out why I've got a slow—you know, I've been told that we've got a slowdown. Is it my query? Is it my web service? What is it? I'd like to pinpoint, find, and fix the issue fast.”One of the things that we're doing now is starting to leverage the data in a more analytic way to begin to help people focus their attention. And that's a new product that we're going to be bringing out later this spring, and I'm very, very excited about it. But I think that's the key, which is to start small, run a few test cases that are related to the area of code that you're interested in if that's an onboarding case, or look for areas of the code you can record or run test cases around that is related to the bug you have to fix. Because if you just run your whole test suite, you will generate a giant amount of data. Sometimes people generate, like, 10,000 AppMaps on the first pass through. And they're like, “Whoa.” [laugh]. That's like getting a map of all of the Planet Earth with street directions for every single city, across all of the continents. You don't need that; you just want to know how to get to the nearest 7/11, right? Like, so just start small. [laugh]. Don't try and map your entire universe, galaxy, you know, out of the gate. [laugh].Jason: That's fantastic advice, and it sounds very similar to what we advise at Gremlin for Chaos Engineering of starting small, starting very specific, really honing in on sort of a hypothesis, “What do I think will happen?” Or, “How do I think I understand things?” And really going from there?Elizabeth: Yeah. It does, it focuses the mind to have a specific question as opposed to asking the universe what does it all mean?Jason: Yeah. Well, thanks for being a guest on the show today. Before we go, where can people find AppMap if they're interested in the tool, and they want to give it a try?Elizabeth: So, we are located in the VS Code Marketplace if you use the VS Code editor, and we're also located in JetBrains Marketplace if you use any of the JetBrains tools.Jason: Awesome. So yeah, for our VS Code and JetBrains users, go check that out. And if you're interested in more about AppMap or AppLand, where can folks find more info about the company and maybe future announcements on the analysis tooling?Elizabeth: That would be appland.com A-P-P-L-A-N-D dot C-O-M. And our dev docs are there, new tooling is announced there, and our community resources are there, so if anyone would like to participate in either helping us build out our data model, feedback on our language-specific plans or any of the tooling, we welcome contributors.Jason: Awesome. Thanks again for sharing all of that info about AppMap and AppLand and how folks can continue to build more reliable software.Elizabeth: Thank you for having me, Jason.Jason: For links to all the information mentioned, visit our website at gremlin.com/podcast. If you liked this episode, subscribe to the Break Things on Purpose podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform. Our theme song is called “Battle of Pogs” by Komiku, and it's available on loyaltyfreakmusic.com.

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Grant Welcome everybody. In this episode, we take a look at the four pitfalls to AI ethics and are they solvable? Okay, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of ClickAI Radio. So glad to have in the house today Plainsight AI. What a privilege. Elizabeth Spears with us here today. Hi, Elizabeth. Elizabeth Hey, Grant. Thanks for having me back. Grant Thanks for coming back. You know, when we were talking last time, you threw out this wonderful topic around pitfalls around AI ethics. And it's such a common sort of drop phrase, everyone's like, oh, there's ethics issues around AI. Let's, let's shy away from it. Therefore, it's got a problem, right? And I loved how you came back. And it was after our episode, it's like he pulled me aside in the hallway. Metaphorically like "Grant, let's have a topic on the pitfalls around these some of these ethical topics here". So I, you hooked me I was like, Oh, perfect. That's, that's a wonderful idea with that. Elizabeth So typically, I think there's, there's so many sort of high level conversations about ethics and AI, but, but I feel like we don't dig into the details very often of kind of when that happens, and how to deal with it. And like you said, it's kind of the common pitfalls. Grant It is. And, you know, it's interesting is the, in the AI world in particular, it seems like so many of the ethical arguments come up around the image, style of AI, right, you know, ways in which people have misused or abused AI, right for either bad use cases or other sort of secret or bad approaches. So this is like you are the perfect person to talk about this and, and cast the dagger in the heart of some of these mythical ethical things, or maybe not right. All right. Oh, yeah. Alright, so let's talk through some of these. So common pitfalls. So there were four areas that you and I sort of bantered about, he came back he said, Okay, let's talk about bias. Let's talk about inaccuracy in models, a bit about fraud, and then perhaps something around legal or ethical consent violations. Those were four that we started with, we don't have to stay on those. But let's tee up bias. Let's talk about ethical problems around bias. All right. Elizabeth So I mean, there's really there's several types of bias. And, and often the biased and inaccuracies can kind of conflate because they can sort of cause each other. But we have I have some examples of of both. And then again, somewhere, some where it's it's really biased and inaccuracies that are happening. But one example or one type is not modeling your problem correctly, and in particular, to simply so I'll start with the example. So you want to detect safety in a crosswalk, right, relatively simple kind of thing. And, and you want to make sure that no one is sitting in this crosswalk. Because that would be now generally be a problem. It's a problem. So, so you do body pose detection, right? And if you aren't thinking about this problem holistically, you say, All right, I'm going to do sitting versus standing. Now the problem with that is what about a person in a wheelchair? So then you would be detecting kind of a perceived problem because you think someone sitting in the middle of a crosswalk but but it's really just about accurately defining that problem. And then and then making sure that's reflected in your labeling process. And and that kind of flows. into another whole set of problems, which is when your test data and your kind of labeling process are a mismatch with your production environment. So one of the things that we really encourage for our customers is, is collecting as much production close as close to possible, or ideally just production data that you'll be running your models on, instead of having sort of these very different test data sets that then you'll then you'll kind of deploy into production. And there can be these mismatches. And sometimes that's a really difficult thing to accomplish. Grant Yeah, so I was gonna ask you on that, you know, in the world of generative AI, where that's becoming more and more of a thing, and in the app, the appetite for sort of generating or producing that test data is the premise that because I've heard some argue, wait, generative AI actually helps me to overcome and avoid some of the bias issues, but it sounds like you might be proposing just the opposite. Elizabeth It actually works both ways. So um, so creating synthetic data can really help when you want to avoid data bias, and you don't have enough production data to, to do that well. And so you can do, you can, you can do that in a number of different ways. data augmentation is one way so taking your original data and say, flipping it, or changing the colors in it, etc. So taking an original dataset and trying to make it more diverse and kind of cover more cases than you maybe would originally to make your model more robust. Another another kind of way of doing that is synthetic data creation. So an example there would be, you have a 3d environment, in one of these, you know, game engine type things like Unreal or blender, you know, there's, there's a few, and you have, say, I want to detect something, and it's usually in a residential setting, right. So you can have a whole environment of different, you know, housing types, and it would be really hard to get that data, you know, without having generated it, right, because you don't have cameras in everybody's houses, right. So in those cases, what we encourage is, pilots, so you before, really, you know, deploying this thing, and, and letting it free in the world, you you use that synthetic data, but then you make sure that you're piloting that in your set in your real world setting as long as possible to, you know, sets out any issues that you might come across. Grant So let's go back to that first example you shared where you got the crosswalk, you have the pedestrians, and now you need to make sure you've got different poses, like you said, someone you know, sitting down on the road or laying on the rug, certainly using generative AI to create different postures of those. But But what about, hey, if the introduction, is something brand new, such as, like you said, the wheelchair or some other sort of foreign object? Is the generative AI going to help you solve for that? Or do you need to you need to lead lead it a bit? Elizabeth It absolutely can. Right? So yeah, it's, it's basically anything that you can model in a 3d environment. And so you can definitely model someone in a wheelchair in a 3d environment. And, and Tesla uses this method really often because it's hard to simulate every kind of crash scenario, right? I mean, sorry, it's hard to have real data from every kind of crash scenario. And so they're trying to model again, they're trying to model their problem as robustly as possible. And so in some of those cases, they are like, you know, all of these types of things could happen, let's get more data around that the most efficient, and kind of most possible way of doing that is with synthetic data. Grant Awesome. Awesome. Okay. So that's a key approach for addressing the this bias problem. Are there any other techniques besides this generative, you know, training data approach? What else could you use to overcome the bias? Elizabeth Yeah, so. So another type kind of is when you have, like I was saying a mismatch in test and production data. So a lot of people even you know, computer vision, people sometimes don't know how much this matters. When it's things like, for example, working with a live video. So in those cases, bitrate matters, FPS matters, your resizing algorithm and your image encoding. And so you'll have, in many cases, you're collecting data in the first place for your test data differently than it's going to run in production. And people can forget about that. And so this is a place where, you know, having a platform like plain sight, can really help because that process is standardized, right? So the way you're pulling in that data, that is the same data that you're labeling, and it's the same data that you're, then you know, inferencing on, because you're pulling live data from those cameras, and it's all it's all managed in one place and to end. So that's, that's another strategy. And another thing that happens is when there are researchers that will be working on a model for like, two years, right, and they have this corpus of test data, but something happens in the meantime, right? So it's like, phone imaging has advanced in those in that time, so then your your input is a little different, or like the factory that they were trying to model, the the floor layout changed, right. And they didn't totally realize that the model had somewhat memorized that floor layout. And so you'll get these problems where you have this, you know, what you think is a really robust model, you drop it into production, and you don't know you have a problem until you drop it into production. So that's another reason that we really emphasize having pilots, and then also having a lot of different perspectives on vetting those pilots, right. So you, ideally, you can find a subject matter expert in the area outside of your company to, you know, take take a look at your data and what's coming out of it. And you have kind of a group of people really thinking deeply about, you know, the consistency of your data, how you're modeling your problem, and making sure that kind of all of those, all of those things are covered? Grant Well, in reducing cycle time from this initial set of training, to, to sort of validation of that pilot is crucial to this because as you're pointing out, even even if you even if you keep that cycle time short, and you do lots of iterations on it, some assumptions may change. How do you help? How to me what's the techniques for, you know, keeping someone looking at those assumptions? Like you said, maybe it's a change in camera phone technology, or it's a change of the layout? Like I said, as technology people, Einsteins we get so focused on oh, we're just pushing towards the solution, we sort of forget that part. How do you how do you get someone? Is that just a cultural thing? Is it a AI engineering thing, that someone's got a, you know, a role in the process? To do that? Elizabeth I think it's both. So I think the first thing is organizations really need to think deeply about their process for computer vision and AI. Right. And, and some of the things that I've already mentioned, need to be part of that process, right? So you want to research your users in advance, or your use cases in advance and try to think through that full Problem Set holistically. You want to you want to be really, really clear about your labeling, right? So you can introduce bias, just through your labeling process if humans themselves are introducing it, right? Exactly. If you have some people labeling something a little bit differently than other people. So like on the edge of an image, if you have a person on the edge, do you count that as a person? Or is it or you know, or as another person? Or is it not counted? How far in the view do they have to be? So there's, there's all a lot of gray area where you really just need to be very familiar with your data. And, and be really clear, as a company on how you're going to process that. Grant So this labeling boundaries, but then backing up, there's the label ontology or taxonomy itself, right, which is, yeah, that itself could just be introducing bias also, right. Elizabeth Yeah. And then back to kind of what we're saying about how to ensure how to really think through some of these problems, is you can also make sure that that as a as a company, you have a process where you, you have multi passes, multiple passes on, on that annotated data, and then multiple passes on the actual inference data, right. So you have a process where you're really checking. Another thing that we've talked about internally, recently is you know, we have a pipeline for deploying your computer vision. And one of the things that can be really, really important in a lot of these cases is making sure that there is a human in the loop that there is some human supervision. To make sure that you're, you're, again, you weren't servicing bias that you didn't under your you didn't anticipate, or your your model hasn't drifted over time, things like that. And so something we've considered is being able to kick off just in that process, have it built in that you can kick off a human, like a task for a person, right? So it's, it's just built in. Grant And so it no matter what you do that thing is this, it's just as a governance function, is that what you're getting? Elizabeth Kind of so it's like, it's like a processing pipeline for your data. And, and so you can have things like, Alright, at this step, I'm gonna augment my data, and at this step, I'm gonna, you know, run an inference on it, or flip it or whatever it is, right? And so, in that you could make sure that you kick off a task for a human to check, right, or, or whatever the case may be. Yep. Yep. So there's several good, so good process maturity, is another technique for how do we help overcome bias as well as inaccurate models? And I'm assuming you're, you're almost bundling both of those into that right? In Yeah, both right. And, and like you said, they're the another way is reducing that time, and also making sure that you're working on production data whenever possible. So reducing the this, this is where the platform can help as well. Because when you you know, you aren't off in research land, without production data for two years, but you have a system where it makes it really easy to connect cameras, and just work on on real production data, then two things, you're, you're reducing the time that it takes to kind of go full circle on on labeling and training and testing. And then also you you have it all in one place. And that's that's one of the problems that we solve, right? Because, in many cases, computer vision engineers or, or data scientists, they're kind of working on the they don't have the full pipeline to work on the problem. So they have this test dataset, and they're working on it somewhat separately from where it will be deployed in production. And so we try to join those two things. Grant Yeah, I think that's one of the real strengths of the platform of your platform, the plain side platform is this reduction of the cycle, so that I can actually be testing and validating against production scenarios, and then take that feedback. And then augmenting that with the great governance processes you talked about. Both of those are critical. Let's let's talk a little bit and talk about fraud is, you know, certainly in this in computer vision, holy smokes, fraud has been probably one of the key areas that, you know, the bad guys have gone after, right? All right, what what can you do to overcome this and deal with this? Elizabeth You know, it can really become a cat and mouse game. And I think the conversation about fraud boils down to, it's not clear, it boils down to is it better than the alternative? Right? So it's not clear that just because there could be some fraud in the computer vision solution, it may or may not be true that there could be more fraud and another solution, right. So so the example is, technically, you used to be able to and I think with some phones, you still can 3d print a face to defraud your facial detection to unlock your phone. Yeah. And there is and so then they've, you know, done a lot of things, advancements, so this is harder to do, which, like there's a liveliness detector, I think they use their eyes, your eyes for that. And then you know, there's a few but you could still use a mask. So again, it's it's this cat and mouse game. And another place is is you know, there are models that can understand text to speech. And then there are models that you can put on top of that, that can make that speech sound like other voices, right? So the the big category here is deep fakes. But it's, you know, you can you can make your voice sound like someone else's voice. And there are banks and other things like that, that use voice as a as a method for authentication. Right, right. Grant I'm sure I'm sure we've all seen the the Google duplex demo or scenarios right. says a few years from now, right? I mean, that technology obviously continues to mature. Elizabeth Exactly. And so, so then the question is Okay, if I can 3d print a face and or a mask and unlock someone's phone, is that is that is that harder than actually someone just finding my, you know, four to six digit phone, you know, numerical code to unlock my phone. So, you know, so I think there it really becomes a balance of which thing is is harder to defraud and in fraud in general, you know, if you think about cybersecurity, and, and everywhere that you're trying to combat this, it's a it's a cat and mouse game, right? People are getting, you know, people are figure out the vulnerabilities in what exists and then and then people have to get better at defending it. So well. So the argument is, if I if I can say back to the argument is, yeah, it exists. But hey, how's this different from so many other technologies or techniques, where again, you got fraudsters trying to break in? This is just part of the business today? Right. That's where it is? Grant Yeah, I think it becomes a, an evaluation of is it? Does it cause more or less of a fraud problem? And then it's, it's really just about evaluating the use of technology on an even plane? Right. So it's not it's not about should you use AI? Because it causes fraud? It's should you use any particular method or technology because there's a fraud issue and what's gonna cause the least fraud? Right, a more specific use case? Elizabeth Yeah. Grant Yep. Okay, so So fraud. So, uh, you and I had talked about some potential techniques out there. Like there's a Facebook Instagram technology algorithm. Right. I think it's called seer. I think it came out not too long ago. It's a it's an ultra large vision model. It takes in more than a billion variables. P believe that. That's, that's a lot. A lot of massive. I mean, I've built some AI models, but not with a billion. That's incredible. So are you familiar with that? Have you looked into that at all SEER itself? Elizabeth Yeah, so So this, basically, this method where you can look, basically to try to address bias through distorting of images? Yeah, yeah. So I can give you a good example of something that actually we've worked on, I'm going to chase change the case a little bit to kind of anonymize it. But so in a lab setting, we were working on some special imaging to detect whether there was a bacteria in, in in samples, or not, right. And in this case, we were collecting samples from many labs across the country. And one thing that could be different in them was the color of kind of the substrate that the sample was just in, it was essentially a preservative. Wow. And so but but those, there are a few different colors. And they were used kind of widely. And so it wasn't generally thought that, you know, this would be a problem. But so the model was built and all the data was processed. And there was a really high accuracy. But what happened, and what they found out was that the, there was a correlation with the color and whether the bacteria was present or not. And it was just a kind of a chance correlation, right. But if you had had something like that, that image distortion, so if you took the color out automatically, or you mess with the color, then that would have taken that bias out of that model. And then as a second thing happened, actually, which was when the, the the people in the lab, were taking the samples out of the freezer, they would take all of them at once. And they were just kind of bordered. And so they would do all of the positives first and all of the negative second. And machine learning is just it's a really amazing pattern detector, right? Like that is that is what it is about. Yeah. And so again, they were finding a correlation just between the weather it was hot, more thawed or not. And that was correlating with whether it was positive or not. So, you know, some of this really comes back to what you learn in science fair and putting together a really Your robust scientific method and making sure you're handling all of your very variables really carefully. And, and, and, and clearly and you know what's going into your model. And you can control for that as much as possible. So, so yeah, that I mean that Facebook method is, can be really valuable in a lot of cases to suss out some of these correlations that you may just not know are there. Grant Yeah, I think what's cool is they open source that right, I think it's called swag SwaaV. Yeah. Which is awesome. The they figured that out and made that open source so that obviously, the larger community needs something like this course help deal with some of this, this bias challenge. Interesting. Okay, that's cool. So all right. I was I was I really wanted to ask you about your thoughts on that approach. So I'm glad to hear you validate that. Elizabeth Yeah, no, it's great. I mean, there really has to be a process, especially in a in a model like that, where you try to break it in any possible way that you can, right, there has to be a whole separate process where you think through any variable that there could be and so if there's a model that's, that has, you know, so many just out of the box, that's a really good, great place to start. Grant Yeah, awesome. Awesome. Okay. And then the last category here, around ethical violations, any thoughts on that? Elizabeth Addressing that overcoming that, you know, I think that really just comes down to when you need permission to be doing something, I need to make sure that you're doing it right, or you're getting it. And that, you know, obviously that happens in cases where there's facial recognition and making sure that people know that that's going on, and that's similar to being kind of videotaped at all right. And so that one's fairly straightforward. But sometimes people need to, you know, when you're putting together your ethics position, you need to make sure that you're really remembering that that's there. And you're checking every single time that you don't have an issue. Grant Yeah, permissions. And there's this notion, I'll come up with a term that feels like permission creep, right. It's called scope, right? It's like, well, you may have gotten permission to do this part of it. But you kind of find yourself also using the data stuff over here right to maybe solve other other problems, and that that's a problem in some some people's minds for sure. I was very good point. Yeah, various articles, people out there talk about that part of it sort of creeping along, and how do you help ensure that what it is I gave you the data for what we're using it for? Is just for its, you know, you know, permitted intended purpose, right? That was a challenge for sure. Okay, so you've been more than fair with your time here today with us, Elizabeth, gay, dry, any conclusions? What's the top secret answer to the overcoming the four pitfalls here of AI ethical? Elizabeth So one thing I have to add, we would be remiss if we didn't talk about data bias without talking about data diversity in data balance, right. And so, you know, obviously, the, the simple example there is fruit. So if you are looking at if you have a dataset with seven apples, one banana, and seven oranges, it's going to be worse at detecting the banana. But the more real world example that happens is in hospitals, right? So they, in the healthcare system, in general, we have a problem with being able to share data, even even anonymized data. So when a hospital is doing is building a model, there have been problems where a can be they, they have bias in their dataset, right. So in in a certain location, you can have something like if you're coming in with a cough in one area, it may be most likely that you have a cold, cold, but in another area, it may be more accurate to start evaluating for asthma, right. Grant So that kind of thing can come up so it if you if you take a model that's done in one hospital and try to apply it elsewhere, then again, that's a place where you can visit, is that kind of like a form of confirmation bias, meaning, you know, you have the same symptom, but you come into two different parts of the hospital and, well, this person's coughing and you know, you're in the respiratory area. So they immediately think it's one thing but now you go to another part of the hospital. Well, yeah, a cough is a symptom for that to suddenly you know, that's what they think you have. Elizabeth That's a great point. It really it's sort of the machine learning version. that? Grant Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a confirmation bias sort of view. It's like yeah, oh, this is, uh, but it how many variables does it take for you to actually have true confirmation? Right? But with this example from Facebook a billion, but how many do you need to have? Elizabeth I think it's really it's less about the variables. And it's more about your data balance and making sure that you're training on the same data that's going to be used in production. So it you know, it's less of a problem, if you are, you know, only deploying that model at one hospital. But if you want to deploy it elsewhere, you need data from everywhere, right? Or, or wherever you're, you're planning to deploy it. So So again, it really comes back to that data balance and making sure your test data and your production data are kind of in line. Grant Are there any of these ethical biases we've talked about that are not solvable? Elizabeth Um, that's a good question. I think Ah, maybe dancer, are you? Are you running? I think there are definitely some that can be really hard. So, so something that we touched on, you talked about, you know, is there inherently a, are our supervised models more inherently more biased than unsupervised? And like, the answer there is, is probably yes. Because you're T you're a human is explicitly teaching a model what's important in that image? And so you know, that that thing can be exactly what you're looking for. Right? You want to make sure there's not a safety issue or whatever it is. But, but, but just it's a human process. So there can be things there that you don't catch. Grant Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's that's been a question on my mind for a while, which is the implicit impact of bias on supervised versus non supervisory, or work with another group called Aible, have you run into Aible, they're one of the AutoML providers out there. And more on sort of the predictive analytics side of AI, right. They're not doing anything with with computer vision, they have this capability, where they'll look at, but it's always supervised data, but what they're trying to the problem you're trying to solve is, okay, you got a lot of data. Just give me tone, give me signal. In other words, before I spend too much time, trying to, you know, do some training and guiding the model, just do a quick look into that data set and tell me, is there any toner signal where these particular supervised elements, they can draw early correlation to outcome or predictive capabilities. And the idea is that as the world of data keeps getting larger and larger, our time as humans doesn't keep getting larger and larger. So we need to reduce what's the total set of stuff we're looking at, dismiss these other pieces, they're irrelevant to, you know, being predictive. And then you can focus on the things that are important. Anything like that in the computer vision world? Elizabeth So So I was thinking I was trying so unsupervised learning is less common in, in computer vision. But, but, but one of the things that can happen is just the data that exists in the world is bias. Right? So So an example is say you want to predict what a human might do at any one time. And you want to use an unsupervised method for that. So say you want to scrape the internet of videos. If you look at the videos on YouTube, the videos that people upload are inherently biased. So if you look at security view videos, they're like, almost all fights, right. So your model, because that's what humans think, is interesting. And as you know, uploaded it in a security video. And so I mean, not almost all but a lot of Yeah, yeah, he's inherently what humans think are interesting. And so there are places like that where just inherently your data set is kind of biased because we're human. So So again, it's another place that you have to be pretty careful. Grant Yeah. Okay, so sounds like the problems are I'm gonna say I'm doing Air quotes. These are solvable, but it takes some discipline and rigor. Elizabeth Yeah, okay. And and it's just so important for organizations to kind of sit down and really think through their, their ethical use of of AI and how they're going to approach that and get a policy together and make sure they're really kind of living those policies. Grant Excellent. Okay. Elizabeth, thank you for your time today. Any final comments? Any parting shots? Elizabeth Um, no, I think I appreciate you having me on. That was a really fun conversation. And yeah, I always enjoy chatting with you. Grant Likewise, Elizabeth, thank you for your time. Thank you everyone for joining and this episode. Until next time, get some ethics for your AI. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.  

Welcome to ClickAI Radio. In this episode I have a conversation with some AI experts on how AI ethics affect your business. Grant Okay, welcome, everybody to another episode of clique AI radio. Well in the house today I have got a return visitor very excited to have him and a brand new person. I'm excited to introduce you to Carlos Anchia. I've been practicing that I get that right, Carlos. Carlos Sounds great. Good to see you again. Grant Even old dogs can learn new tricks. There we go. All right, and Elizabeth Spears. Now I got that one easily. Right, Elizabeth? Elizabeth You did it? Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Grant This is exciting for me to have them here with me today. They are co founders of plain sight AI. And a few episodes ago, I had an opportunity to speak with Carlos and he laid the foundation around the origin story of AI for vision, some of the techniques and the problems they're solving. And I started to nerd out on all of the benefits. In fact, you know what, Carlos, I need to tell you, since our last conversation, I actually circled back to your team and had a demo of what you guys are doing. And yeah, I think it was very impressive, very impressive, you know, a guy like me, where I've coded this stuff. And I was like, Oh, wow, you just took a lot of a lot of pain out of the process. You know, one of the pains that I saw come out of the process was the reduction in time, right that how long it would take for me to cycle another model through it. That was incredible, right? I can't remember the actual quantification of time, but it was at least a 50% of not even 80% reduction of cycle time is what I saw come through, there's even model versioning sort of techniques, there's just, you know, there's another really cool technique in there that I saw. And it had to do with this ability to augment or, or approximate test data, right, this ability to say, but but without creating more test data, it could approximate and create that for you. So now, your whole testing side just got a lot easier without building up, you know, those massive test cases and test basis for for doing the stuff So, alright, very impressive product set. And let's see, Elizabeth can you explain that? Elizabeth That's right, Chief Product Officer. So basically, kind of the strategy around what we're building and how we build it. And the order in which we build it is is kind of under my purview. Grant Okay, very good. Awesome. Well, it's so great to have both of you here today. So after I spoke with Carlos, last time, after we finished the recording, I said, You know what, I want to talk to you about ethics about AI ethics. And so as you heard in my previous podcast, I sort of laid the foundation for this conversation. And it's not the only areas of ethics around AI, but it's a place to start. And so we want to build on this. And we're gonna talk about these sort of four or five different areas just to begin the conversation. And I think this could translate certainly into other conversations as well. But to do that, could could one or both of you spend a little time giving the foundation of what is AI ethics as a relates to computer vision itself? What are some of the challenges or problems or misunderstandings that you see in this specific area of AI? Carlos Sure, I can take that one. So I think really, when we're talking around ethics, we're bowling any sort of technology, we're talking around how that technology is implemented, and the use of that, right and what's acceptable. So in the case of this technology, we're talking around computer vision and artificial intelligence, and how those things go into society. And it's really through its intended use on how we evaluate the technology. And I think really, computer vision continues to provide value to allow us to get through this digital transformation piece. As a technology, right? And, you know, once we start with, yes, this is a valuable technology, the conversation really now shifts to how do we use that technology for good, some cases bad, right? Where this is where that conversation arises around, you know, having the space to share what we believe is good or bad, or the right uses or the wrong usage just right. And it's a very, very gray area, when we look to address technology and advancement in technology against a black and white good or bad kind of a situation, we get into a lot of issues where, you know, there's a lot of controversy around some of these things, right, which is really, you know, as we started discussing it after the last podcast, it was really, you know, man, I really need to have a good podcast around this, because there's a lot to it. And you clearly said there was a previous one. And now there's this one, you know, I hope that there's a series of these so we can continue to express value and just have a free conversation around ethics in artificial intelligence. But really, what I'm trying to do is set the context, right. So like technology works great from the just the science of the application of that technology. And if you think of something like super controversial facial recognition, now, absolutely. I don't want people to look at my face when I'm standing on a corner. But if there's, you know, child abduction cases, yes, please use all the facial recognition you can I want that to succeed really well. And we've learned that technology works. So it's not the solution itself. It's how we're applying that solution. Right. And there's there's a lot of new ones to that. And, you know, Elizabeth can help shed a little bit of light here, because this is something that we evaluate on a constant basis and have really free discussions around. Grant Yeah, I would imagine you have to even as you take your platform into your into your customer base, even understanding what their use cases are imagined, at times, you might have to give a little guidance on the best way to apply our uses. What have you seen with this, Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, there's, it's interesting what Carlos is saying there's a lot of the same themes for evaluating the ethics and technology in general are similar ones that come up with when AI is applied. So things like fraud or bias is actually more can be more uniquely AI. But that absolutely exists in other technologies. And then inaccuracy and how that how that comes up in AI, and then things like consent and privacy. So a lot of the themes and we can we can talk about how AI applies to these, but a lot of the themes that come up, are really similar. And so one of the things that we try to do for our customers is, especially kind of your listener base, that's that small, medium businesses is take a lot of that complexity out of the, like, Hey, I just want to apply, you know, I just want to solve this one problem with AI, what are all of these concerns that I, you know, I may or may not know about. So, we try to do things like build, build things into the platform that make it so something like bias. So, for example, is usually comes down to data balance. So if we provide tools that really clearly show your data balance, then it helps people make unbiased models, right, and be confident that they're going to be using AI ethically, Grant So that I'm sure you're aware of this Harrisburg University in Pennsylvania case where they ended up using AI to predict criminality using image processing, right. And, of course, that it failed, right? Because it you know, looking at a an image of someone and saying, Oh, that person is a criminal, or that person's not a criminal. That's using some powerful technology, but in ways that, of course, has some strong problems or challenges around that. How do you help prevent something like this? Or how do you guide people to use this, this kind of tool or technology and in ways that are beneficial? Elizabeth Yeah. What's interesting about this one is that the same technology that causes the problem can also help solve the problem. So so when you're looking at your corpus of data, you can use AI to find places where you have data in balance and and just to kind of re explain the what happened in that case, right. So they had a data imbalance where it was Miss identifying Different races that they had less data for. So, you know, a less controversial example is if we're talking about fruit, right, so if we have a dataset that has 20, oranges, two bananas and 20, apples, then it's just going to be worse than identifying bananas, right? So one of the things that that can be done is you apply AI to automatically look at your data balance and say, and surface those issues where it can say, hey, you have less of this thing, you probably want to label more of that thing. Grant So I'll try to manage the data set better in terms of proper representation. And try finding, finding bias is a real challenge for organizations. And I think one of the things that your platform would allow or unable to do is if you can take off the pain of all of the machinery of just getting through this and and free up organizations time to be more strict in terms of evaluating and finally, oh, taking the time to do those kinds of things, I think you might have an opportunity to improve in that area meeting customers might be able to improve in there, would that be a fair takeaway? Elizabeth Yeah, it's something that that we're really passionate about trying to provide tools around. And, and we're kind of prioritizing these these tools. The other one is, is that has to do with your data is as well is finding inaccuracies in, in your models. So the one example is X ray machines. So they did. They've basically they had an inaccuracy in a model that was finding a correlation, I think it was for it was for the disease detection. So it was finding a correlation just when the X ray was mobile, versus when they went into kind of a hospital to get the X ray. And so, you know, these models are in many cases, really just very strong pattern detectors, right. And so one of the things that can really help to, you know, to prevent something like that is to make it easy to slice and dice your data in as many ways as possible, and then run models that way. And make sure that you aren't finding the same correlation, or the same sort of accuracy with a different data set, or a different running of the model in a different data set. So said, in other words, you would be able to say, I'm going to run all of the portable X-ray machines versus all of the hospital ones, and see if I'm getting the same correlation as I am with, you know, cancer versus not cancer, or whatever they were looking for. Grant A quick question for you on this. So in my experience with AI, I have found sort of two things to consider. One is the questions that I'm trying to get answered guides me in terms of, you know, how I prepare the model, right? I'm gonna first lean towards certain things, obviously, if I want to know that this is a banana, right, or an apple or what have you. So the kind of question that when I answer leads me to how I prepare the model, which means it leads me to the data that I select. And the question is, is do I do I? Should I spend the time really putting together the strong set of questions? And rather, rather than do that, just gather my data? And then and then execute that data, the build a model? And then Ben, try to answer some questions out of that, you see what I'm saying that way, maybe I'm not going to introduce any bias into it. Elizabeth So we we encourage a very clear sort of understanding of the questions that you want to answer, right? Because that helps you do a few things, it helps you craft a model that's really going to answer that question, as opposed to accidentally answering some other questions, right. But it also helps you right size the technology so far, for example, if you're doing if you're trying to answer the question of how many people are entering this building, because you want to understand, you know, limits of how many people can be in the building or, you know, COVID restrictions or whatever it is, that that solution doesn't need to have facial recognition, right. So to answer that question, you don't need you know, lots of other technologies included in there. And so yeah, So, so defining those questions ahead of time can really help in sort of a more ethical use of the technology. Grant So one of the first jobs we would then have a small medium business do would be get clarity around those questions that actually can help us take some of the bias out. Is that a fair takeaway from what you share? Elizabeth Exactly like the questions you're trying to answer. And the questions you aren't not trying to answer can also be helpful. Grant Oh, very good. Okay. All right. So all right, the opposite of that as well. All right. So while we could keep talking about bias, let's switch to something that is that I think comes right out of the movie iRobot, right. It's robot rights. Is this, is this a fluke? Or what, you know, is this for real? I mean, what do you think? Is there really an ethical thing to worry about here? Or what? What are your thoughts? Elizabeth You know, in most of the cases that I've seen, it's really more like, it comes down to just property, like treating property correctly, you know, like don't kick the robots because it's private property. So not really around sort of the robot rights but you know, some already established rules be in for the most part, I see this as kind of a Hollywood problem, more than a practical problem. Grant Maybe it makes good Will Smith movies. But other than that, yeah, fighting for rights, right. Now that seems like it's way out there in terms of terms of connection reality. Okay, so we can tell our listeners, don't worry about that for right now. Did you add something back there? Carlos Just an interesting point on the robot rights, right. While while it's far in the future, I think for robot rights, we are seeing a little bit of that now today. Right? When like Tesla AI day, when they came out, they decided that the robot shouldn't run too fast that the robot shouldn't be too strong. I think it's a bit. It's a bit interesting that, you know, we're also protecting the human race from for us building, you know, AI for bad and robots for bad in this case. So I think it's, it's, it's on both sides of that coin. And those are, those are product decisions that were made around. Let's make sure we can run that thing later. So I think I think as we continue to explore robots AI, the the use of that together, this topic will be very important, but I think it's far far away. Grant I'm wondering is that also blends into the next sort of ethical subtopic we talked about, which is threat to human dignity. And it might even crossed into that a little bit, right, which is, are we developing AI in a way that's going to help? protect the dignity of human certainly in health care situations? That certainly becomes important, right? You probably heard on the previous podcasts that I did, I played a little snippet from Google's duplex technology that was three year old technology, and those people had no idea. They're talking and interacting with AI. And so there's that aspect of this. So where's the line on this? When? When is it that someone needs to know that what you're interacting with is actually not human? And then does this actually mean there's a deeper problem that we're trying to solve in the industry, which is one of identity, we've got to actually create a way to know what it is that we're interacting with. And we have strong identity? Can you speak to that? Yeah, Elizabeth I think I think the there's two things that kind of come into play here. And the first is transparency, and the second is consent. So in this case, it really comes down to transparency, like it would be very simple in that example, for that bot to say, Hey, I'm a bot on behalf of, you know, Grant Larsen, and I'm trying to schedule a hair appointment, right, and then going from there. And that makes it a much more transparent and easy interaction. So I think in a lot of cases, really paying attention to transparency and consent can go a long way. Grant Yeah, absolutely. All right, that that that makes a lot of sense. It seems like we can get around some of these pieces fairly, fairly simply. All right, Carlos, any other thoughts on that one? Carlos The only thing there and then touches on the stuff you guys were talking about on the bias piece, right? We're really talking about visibility and introspection into the process. Right. And with bias, you have that in place, right? We can detect when you know there's a misrepresentation of classes within the the model. In some cases, there's human bias that you can get that right but it's it's having that visibility in the same case with the threat to human data. With that visibility comes the introspection where you can make those decisions. You see more about the problem. Grant Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So if we were to to be able to determine we have a bad actor, if there's not transparency, that would be a way that we could help protect the dignity of humans through this. Alright. That's reasonable. All right. So let's move on to again, sounds Hollywood ish, but I'm not sure it is weaponization of AI. Right? What are the ethics around this? I'll just throw that one on the table. Where do you what do you want to take that? Carlos, you wanna start with that one? Carlos Sure. I mean, so weaponization and and I think when we talk about AI and, and the advancements of it, you quickly go to weaponization. But really, weaponization has two different pieces to it, right? It's obviously it depends on which side of that fence you're on, on whether you view that technology is beneficial or detrimental. But in some cases, that AI that same technology that is helping a pilot navigate, it also helps for a guided missile system or something like that. So we really have to balance and it goes back to use cases, and how we apply that technology as a people. But you know, weaponization, the rise against the machines, these kind of questions. While they're kind of out there. They're affecting society today. And we have to be able to have productive conversation around what we believe is good and bad around this while still allowing technology to succeed. So there's a lot of advancements in the weaponization and AI in that space, but it's really, I think we have to take it on a case by case basis, and not like a blanket statement, we can't use technology in these ways. Grant Interesting thoughts? What are your thoughts there? Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, I it makes me think of sort of turning it on its head is, is when is it? You know, when is it unethical not to use AI, right. And so, some of those questions come up when we are talking about weaponization, you can also be talking about saving human lives and making it safer for them to do some of these operations. And and that same question can come up in some of like, the medical use cases, right? So here in the US, we have a lot of challenges around being able to use AI in medical use cases, and there's, and there's some where you can have really good human oversight of the cases, you can have sort of reproducibility of those models, they can be as explainable as possible. But it's still really, really difficult to get FDA approval there. So I, again, I think there's two sides to that coin. Grant And, yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation have stuff wrong, because like, in that medical case, you talked about, you could see the value of using the same kind of technology that would be used to identify a human target, and then attack it, you could take that same capability, and instead use it in a search and rescue sort of scenario, right? Where you're flying something overhead, and you're trying to find, you know, pictures or images of people that might be lost out there. Same kind of thing, right, so, so where how, go ahead, you're gonna say something was, but I can see. Elizabeth And there's even simpler cases in medical, where it's like, you know, there's a shortage of radiologists right now in the US and, and you can use, you can use AI to be able to triage some of that imaging. So, because right now, people are having to, in some cases, wait a really long time to get their sort of imaging reviewed. And so can can, can, and should AI help there. There's also another one along those same lines, where, with things like CT scans, you can use what's called super resolution or de noising the image. And basically, you can use much less radiation in the first place to take the imaging and then use AI on top of it to be able to essentially enhance the image. So again, you know, ultimately exposing the patient to less less radiation. So yeah, there's it's pretty interesting when when we can and can't use it. Mm hmm. Carlos Yeah. And I think just to add a little bit to the one we can and can't right, so, advancements through drug discovery have largely been driven through AI in the same fashion weaponization of various all drugs or other types of drugs have also benefited from Ai. So, I mean, from a society's perspective, you know, you really have to Evaluate not only greater good, but that that ultimate use case like, where where do you want to make a stance around that technology piece. And understanding both sides really provides that discussion space that's needed, you have to be able to ask really honest questions to problems that are, you know, what you can see in the future. Grant So is the safeguard through all of this topic around ethics? Is the safeguard, basically, the moral compass that's found in the humans themselves? Or do we need to have less, you know, legislative or policy bodies? Right, that puts us together? Or is it a blending? What do you what's your take? Elizabeth Um, it's interesting, the UK just came out with a national AI strategy. And they are basically trying to build an entire AI assurance industry. And, and their approach is, so they want to make sure that they're make, they're keeping it so that you can be innovative in the space, right? They don't want to make it so regulatory, that you can't innovate. But they also want to make sure that there's consumer trust in in AI. So they're putting together from a, you know, a national perspective, a guidelines and tests and, and ways to give consumers confidence in whether a model is you know, reproducible, accurate, etc, etc, while at the same time not stifling innovation, because they know, you know, how important that AI is for a essentially a country's way to compete and and the opportunities for GDP that it provides as well. Grant Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I can go ahead, Carlos. Carlos No, I think it's his it's your question. Left alone, should we got kind of govern ourselves? I think, I think we've proven that we can't do that as a people, right. So we need to have some sort of regulatory, and committee around the review of these things. But it has to be in the light of, you know, wanting to provide a better experience higher quality, deliver value, right. And I think I think when you start with, how do we get the technology adopted and in place and deployed in a fashion where society can benefit, you start making your decisions around, you know, what the good pieces are, and you'll start your start really starting to see the outliers around Hey, wait a second, that doesn't kind of conform to the guidelines that we wanted to get this implemented with? Elizabeth And I think also to your question, I think it's happening at all a lot of levels. Right. So there's, you know, state regulation around privacy and use of AI and facial recognition. And, and there's, you know, some the FDA is putting together some regulation, and then also individual companies, right, so people like Microsoft, etc, have have big groups around, you know, ethics and how AI should be used for, you know, them as a company. So I think it's happening at all levels. Grant Yeah, like we said, that is a people we need to have some level of governing bodies around this to, and of course, that's never the end all protection, for sure. But it is, it is a step in the right direction to to help monitoring and governance. Okay, so last question, right? This is gonna sound a little bit tangential, if I could use that word tangential. It's given the state of AI where it is today. Is it artificial intelligence? Or is it augmented intelligence? Carlos I can go with that. So I think it's a little bit of both. So I think the result is, is to augment our intelligence, right? We're really trying to make better decisions. Some of those are automated, some of those are not we're really trying to inform a higher quality decision. And yes, it's being applied in an artificial intelligence manner, because that's the technology that we're applying, but it's really to augment our lives. Right. And, and we're using it in a variety of use cases. We've talked about a lot of them here. But there's 1000s of use cases in AI that we don't even see today that are very easy. Something as simple as searching on the internet. That's helping a lot from you know, misspelling things and, you know, not not identifying exactly what you want and recommendation engines come and say, you know, I think I'm looking for this instead. It's like, Absolutely, thanks for saving me the frustration. We're really augmenting Life in that point. Grant The reason why I asked that as part of this ethics piece is one of the things I noticed. And as I work with the organizations, there's a misunderstanding of how far and what AI can do at times. And and there's this misunderstanding of therefore, what's my responsibility in this. And my argument is, it's augmented intelligence in terms of its outcome, and therefore, we can't absolve the outcomes and pass that off to AI and say, Oh, well, it told me to do this, just in the same breath, we can't absolve and say, We're not responsible for the use cases either. And the way in which we use it, so we own as a human human race, we own the responsibility to pick an apply the right use cases, to even be able to challenge the AI, insights and outcomes from that, and then to take the ownership of that in what the impacts are. Agree, disagree. Carlos Yeah, I would really agree with that. And if you if you think about how it's implemented, in many cases, right now, the best use of AI is with human oversight, right. So it's sort of, you know, AI is maybe making initial decision, and then the human is reviewing that, or, you know, making a judgment call based on that input. So it's, it's sort of helping human decisioning instead of replacing human decisioning. And I think that's a pretty important kind of guiding principle where, where, wherever that may be necessary, we should do it. There's one, you know, the Zillow case that that happened recently, where they were using machine learning to automatically buy houses, and it was not. There was not enough human oversight in that, and I think they ended up losing something like $500 million in the case, right. So it's not really an ethics thing, but but it's just an example where in a lot of these cases, the best scenario is to have aI paired with human oversight. Yeah, yeah. Great, I think. Grant Yeah, no, go right ahead. Yeah. Elizabeth You mentioned you mentioned being able to challenge the AI, right, and that that piece is really important, in most of the cases, especially in the one that he just mentioned, around that. That Zillow case, right, without the challenging piece, you don't have a path to improvement, you just kind of assume the role, and you get into deep trouble, like you saw there. But that challenging piece is really where innovation starts, you need to be able to get back and question kind of, you know, is this exactly what I want? And if it's not, how do I change it? Right. And that's how we drive kind of innovation in the space? Grant Well, and I would say that that comes full circle to the platform, I saw that your organization's developing, which is to reduce the time and effort it takes to be able to cycle on that right to build the model, get the outcome, evaluate, oh, challenge, make adjustments, but don't make the effort to recast and rebuild that model such that it becomes unaffordable or too much time, I need to be able to iterate on that quickly. And I think as a platform you developed and others that I've seen, you know, continue to reduce that I think it makes it easier for us to do that in it from a from a financially responsible and beneficial perspective. 100% Elizabeth Yeah, one of the one of the features that you mentioned was the versioning. And that really ties into a guiding principle of ethical use as well, which is reproducibility. So if you are, if you want to use a model, you need to be able to reduce, reproduce it reliably. And so you're getting the same kind of outputs. And so that's one of the features that we've put in there to help people that versioning feature to help people, you know, comply with that type of a regulation. Grant I've built enough AI models to know it's tough to go back to a particular version of an AI model and have reproducibility accountability. I mean, there's a whole bunch of LEDs on that. That's exceedingly valuable. That's right. Yeah. Okay, any any final comments for me there? Yeah. Carlos I think for my side, I'm really interested to see where we go as people with ethics in AI. I think we've touched on the transparency and visibility required to have these conversations around ethics and our ethical use of AI. But really, in this case, we're gonna start seeing more and more use cases and solutions in their lives or we're gonna butt up against these ethical questions, and being able to have an open forum where we can discuss this. That's really up to us. To provide we have to provide the space to have these conversations, and in some cases, arguments around the use of the technology. And I'm really looking forward to, you know, what comes out of that, you know, how long does it take for us to get to that space where, you know, we're advancing in technology and addressing issues while we advanced the technology. Grant Excellent. Thanks, Carlos. Elizabeth. Elizabeth Yeah, so for me as a as a product person in particular, I'm really interested in these the the societal conversation that we're having, and the regulations that are starting to be put together and kind of the guidelines from larger companies and companies like ours that are, you know, contributing to this thought leadership. And so what's really interesting for me is being able to take those, that larger conversation and that larger knowledge base and distill it down into simple tools for people like small and medium businesses that can then feel confident using AI and these things are just built in sort of protecting them from making some mistakes. So I'm really interested to see sort of how that evolves and how we can productize it to make it simple for people. Grant Yeah, yeah. Bingo. Exactly. Okay, everyone. I'd like to thank Carlos Elizabeth, for joining me here today. Wonderful conversation that I enjoyed that a lot. Thanks, everyone for listening. And until next time, get some AI with your ethics. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

Welcome to ClickAI Radio. In this episode I have a conversation with some AI experts on how AI ethics affect your business. Grant Okay, welcome, everybody to another episode of clique AI radio. Well in the house today I have got a return visitor very excited to have him and a brand new person. I'm excited to introduce you to Carlos Anchia. I've been practicing that I get that right, Carlos. Carlos Sounds great. Good to see you again. Grant Even old dogs can learn new tricks. There we go. All right, and Elizabeth Spears. Now I got that one easily. Right, Elizabeth? Elizabeth You did it? Yeah. I'm really happy to be here. Grant This is exciting for me to have them here with me today. They are co founders of plain sight AI. And a few episodes ago, I had an opportunity to speak with Carlos and he laid the foundation around the origin story of AI for vision, some of the techniques and the problems they're solving. And I started to nerd out on all of the benefits. In fact, you know what, Carlos, I need to tell you, since our last conversation, I actually circled back to your team and had a demo of what you guys are doing. And yeah, I think it was very impressive, very impressive, you know, a guy like me, where I've coded this stuff. And I was like, Oh, wow, you just took a lot of a lot of pain out of the process. You know, one of the pains that I saw come out of the process was the reduction in time, right that how long it would take for me to cycle another model through it. That was incredible, right? I can't remember the actual quantification of time, but it was at least a 50% of not even 80% reduction of cycle time is what I saw come through, there's even model versioning sort of techniques, there's just, you know, there's another really cool technique in there that I saw. And it had to do with this ability to augment or, or approximate test data, right, this ability to say, but but without creating more test data, it could approximate and create that for you. So now, your whole testing side just got a lot easier without building up, you know, those massive test cases and test basis for for doing the stuff So, alright, very impressive product set. And let's see, Elizabeth can you explain that? Elizabeth That's right, Chief Product Officer. So basically, kind of the strategy around what we're building and how we build it. And the order in which we build it is is kind of under my purview. Grant Okay, very good. Awesome. Well, it's so great to have both of you here today. So after I spoke with Carlos, last time, after we finished the recording, I said, You know what, I want to talk to you about ethics about AI ethics. And so as you heard in my previous podcast, I sort of laid the foundation for this conversation. And it's not the only areas of ethics around AI, but it's a place to start. And so we want to build on this. And we're gonna talk about these sort of four or five different areas just to begin the conversation. And I think this could translate certainly into other conversations as well. But to do that, could could one or both of you spend a little time giving the foundation of what is AI ethics as a relates to computer vision itself? What are some of the challenges or problems or misunderstandings that you see in this specific area of AI? Carlos Sure, I can take that one. So I think really, when we're talking around ethics, we're bowling any sort of technology, we're talking around how that technology is implemented, and the use of that, right and what's acceptable. So in the case of this technology, we're talking around computer vision and artificial intelligence, and how those things go into society. And it's really through its intended use on how we evaluate the technology. And I think really, computer vision continues to provide value to allow us to get through this digital transformation piece. As a technology, right? And, you know, once we start with, yes, this is a valuable technology, the conversation really now shifts to how do we use that technology for good, some cases bad, right? Where this is where that conversation arises around, you know, having the space to share what we believe is good or bad, or the right uses or the wrong usage just right. And it's a very, very gray area, when we look to address technology and advancement in technology against a black and white good or bad kind of a situation, we get into a lot of issues where, you know, there's a lot of controversy around some of these things, right, which is really, you know, as we started discussing it after the last podcast, it was really, you know, man, I really need to have a good podcast around this, because there's a lot to it. And you clearly said there was a previous one. And now there's this one, you know, I hope that there's a series of these so we can continue to express value and just have a free conversation around ethics in artificial intelligence. But really, what I'm trying to do is set the context, right. So like technology works great from the just the science of the application of that technology. And if you think of something like super controversial facial recognition, now, absolutely. I don't want people to look at my face when I'm standing on a corner. But if there's, you know, child abduction cases, yes, please use all the facial recognition you can I want that to succeed really well. And we've learned that technology works. So it's not the solution itself. It's how we're applying that solution. Right. And there's there's a lot of new ones to that. And, you know, Elizabeth can help shed a little bit of light here, because this is something that we evaluate on a constant basis and have really free discussions around. Grant Yeah, I would imagine you have to even as you take your platform into your into your customer base, even understanding what their use cases are imagined, at times, you might have to give a little guidance on the best way to apply our uses. What have you seen with this, Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, there's, it's interesting what Carlos is saying there's a lot of the same themes for evaluating the ethics and technology in general are similar ones that come up with when AI is applied. So things like fraud or bias is actually more can be more uniquely AI. But that absolutely exists in other technologies. And then inaccuracy and how that how that comes up in AI, and then things like consent and privacy. So a lot of the themes and we can we can talk about how AI applies to these, but a lot of the themes that come up, are really similar. And so one of the things that we try to do for our customers is, especially kind of your listener base, that's that small, medium businesses is take a lot of that complexity out of the, like, Hey, I just want to apply, you know, I just want to solve this one problem with AI, what are all of these concerns that I, you know, I may or may not know about. So, we try to do things like build, build things into the platform that make it so something like bias. So, for example, is usually comes down to data balance. So if we provide tools that really clearly show your data balance, then it helps people make unbiased models, right, and be confident that they're going to be using AI ethically, Grant So that I'm sure you're aware of this Harrisburg University in Pennsylvania case where they ended up using AI to predict criminality using image processing, right. And, of course, that it failed, right? Because it you know, looking at a an image of someone and saying, Oh, that person is a criminal, or that person's not a criminal. That's using some powerful technology, but in ways that, of course, has some strong problems or challenges around that. How do you help prevent something like this? Or how do you guide people to use this, this kind of tool or technology and in ways that are beneficial? Elizabeth Yeah. What's interesting about this one is that the same technology that causes the problem can also help solve the problem. So so when you're looking at your corpus of data, you can use AI to find places where you have data in balance and and just to kind of re explain the what happened in that case, right. So they had a data imbalance where it was Miss identifying Different races that they had less data for. So, you know, a less controversial example is if we're talking about fruit, right, so if we have a dataset that has 20, oranges, two bananas and 20, apples, then it's just going to be worse than identifying bananas, right? So one of the things that that can be done is you apply AI to automatically look at your data balance and say, and surface those issues where it can say, hey, you have less of this thing, you probably want to label more of that thing. Grant So I'll try to manage the data set better in terms of proper representation. And try finding, finding bias is a real challenge for organizations. And I think one of the things that your platform would allow or unable to do is if you can take off the pain of all of the machinery of just getting through this and and free up organizations time to be more strict in terms of evaluating and finally, oh, taking the time to do those kinds of things, I think you might have an opportunity to improve in that area meeting customers might be able to improve in there, would that be a fair takeaway? Elizabeth Yeah, it's something that that we're really passionate about trying to provide tools around. And, and we're kind of prioritizing these these tools. The other one is, is that has to do with your data is as well is finding inaccuracies in, in your models. So the one example is X ray machines. So they did. They've basically they had an inaccuracy in a model that was finding a correlation, I think it was for it was for the disease detection. So it was finding a correlation just when the X ray was mobile, versus when they went into kind of a hospital to get the X ray. And so, you know, these models are in many cases, really just very strong pattern detectors, right. And so one of the things that can really help to, you know, to prevent something like that is to make it easy to slice and dice your data in as many ways as possible, and then run models that way. And make sure that you aren't finding the same correlation, or the same sort of accuracy with a different data set, or a different running of the model in a different data set. So said, in other words, you would be able to say, I'm going to run all of the portable X-ray machines versus all of the hospital ones, and see if I'm getting the same correlation as I am with, you know, cancer versus not cancer, or whatever they were looking for. Grant A quick question for you on this. So in my experience with AI, I have found sort of two things to consider. One is the questions that I'm trying to get answered guides me in terms of, you know, how I prepare the model, right? I'm gonna first lean towards certain things, obviously, if I want to know that this is a banana, right, or an apple or what have you. So the kind of question that when I answer leads me to how I prepare the model, which means it leads me to the data that I select. And the question is, is do I do I? Should I spend the time really putting together the strong set of questions? And rather, rather than do that, just gather my data? And then and then execute that data, the build a model? And then Ben, try to answer some questions out of that, you see what I'm saying that way, maybe I'm not going to introduce any bias into it. Elizabeth So we we encourage a very clear sort of understanding of the questions that you want to answer, right? Because that helps you do a few things, it helps you craft a model that's really going to answer that question, as opposed to accidentally answering some other questions, right. But it also helps you right size the technology so far, for example, if you're doing if you're trying to answer the question of how many people are entering this building, because you want to understand, you know, limits of how many people can be in the building or, you know, COVID restrictions or whatever it is, that that solution doesn't need to have facial recognition, right. So to answer that question, you don't need you know, lots of other technologies included in there. And so yeah, So, so defining those questions ahead of time can really help in sort of a more ethical use of the technology. Grant So one of the first jobs we would then have a small medium business do would be get clarity around those questions that actually can help us take some of the bias out. Is that a fair takeaway from what you share? Elizabeth Exactly like the questions you're trying to answer. And the questions you aren't not trying to answer can also be helpful. Grant Oh, very good. Okay. All right. So all right, the opposite of that as well. All right. So while we could keep talking about bias, let's switch to something that is that I think comes right out of the movie iRobot, right. It's robot rights. Is this, is this a fluke? Or what, you know, is this for real? I mean, what do you think? Is there really an ethical thing to worry about here? Or what? What are your thoughts? Elizabeth You know, in most of the cases that I've seen, it's really more like, it comes down to just property, like treating property correctly, you know, like don't kick the robots because it's private property. So not really around sort of the robot rights but you know, some already established rules be in for the most part, I see this as kind of a Hollywood problem, more than a practical problem. Grant Maybe it makes good Will Smith movies. But other than that, yeah, fighting for rights, right. Now that seems like it's way out there in terms of terms of connection reality. Okay, so we can tell our listeners, don't worry about that for right now. Did you add something back there? Carlos Just an interesting point on the robot rights, right. While while it's far in the future, I think for robot rights, we are seeing a little bit of that now today. Right? When like Tesla AI day, when they came out, they decided that the robot shouldn't run too fast that the robot shouldn't be too strong. I think it's a bit. It's a bit interesting that, you know, we're also protecting the human race from for us building, you know, AI for bad and robots for bad in this case. So I think it's, it's, it's on both sides of that coin. And those are, those are product decisions that were made around. Let's make sure we can run that thing later. So I think I think as we continue to explore robots AI, the the use of that together, this topic will be very important, but I think it's far far away. Grant I'm wondering is that also blends into the next sort of ethical subtopic we talked about, which is threat to human dignity. And it might even crossed into that a little bit, right, which is, are we developing AI in a way that's going to help? protect the dignity of human certainly in health care situations? That certainly becomes important, right? You probably heard on the previous podcasts that I did, I played a little snippet from Google's duplex technology that was three year old technology, and those people had no idea. They're talking and interacting with AI. And so there's that aspect of this. So where's the line on this? When? When is it that someone needs to know that what you're interacting with is actually not human? And then does this actually mean there's a deeper problem that we're trying to solve in the industry, which is one of identity, we've got to actually create a way to know what it is that we're interacting with. And we have strong identity? Can you speak to that? Yeah, Elizabeth I think I think the there's two things that kind of come into play here. And the first is transparency, and the second is consent. So in this case, it really comes down to transparency, like it would be very simple in that example, for that bot to say, Hey, I'm a bot on behalf of, you know, Grant Larsen, and I'm trying to schedule a hair appointment, right, and then going from there. And that makes it a much more transparent and easy interaction. So I think in a lot of cases, really paying attention to transparency and consent can go a long way. Grant Yeah, absolutely. All right, that that that makes a lot of sense. It seems like we can get around some of these pieces fairly, fairly simply. All right, Carlos, any other thoughts on that one? Carlos The only thing there and then touches on the stuff you guys were talking about on the bias piece, right? We're really talking about visibility and introspection into the process. Right. And with bias, you have that in place, right? We can detect when you know there's a misrepresentation of classes within the the model. In some cases, there's human bias that you can get that right but it's it's having that visibility in the same case with the threat to human data. With that visibility comes the introspection where you can make those decisions. You see more about the problem. Grant Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So if we were to to be able to determine we have a bad actor, if there's not transparency, that would be a way that we could help protect the dignity of humans through this. Alright. That's reasonable. All right. So let's move on to again, sounds Hollywood ish, but I'm not sure it is weaponization of AI. Right? What are the ethics around this? I'll just throw that one on the table. Where do you what do you want to take that? Carlos, you wanna start with that one? Carlos Sure. I mean, so weaponization and and I think when we talk about AI and, and the advancements of it, you quickly go to weaponization. But really, weaponization has two different pieces to it, right? It's obviously it depends on which side of that fence you're on, on whether you view that technology is beneficial or detrimental. But in some cases, that AI that same technology that is helping a pilot navigate, it also helps for a guided missile system or something like that. So we really have to balance and it goes back to use cases, and how we apply that technology as a people. But you know, weaponization, the rise against the machines, these kind of questions. While they're kind of out there. They're affecting society today. And we have to be able to have productive conversation around what we believe is good and bad around this while still allowing technology to succeed. So there's a lot of advancements in the weaponization and AI in that space, but it's really, I think we have to take it on a case by case basis, and not like a blanket statement, we can't use technology in these ways. Grant Interesting thoughts? What are your thoughts there? Elizabeth? Elizabeth Yeah, you know, I it makes me think of sort of turning it on its head is, is when is it? You know, when is it unethical not to use AI, right. And so, some of those questions come up when we are talking about weaponization, you can also be talking about saving human lives and making it safer for them to do some of these operations. And and that same question can come up in some of like, the medical use cases, right? So here in the US, we have a lot of challenges around being able to use AI in medical use cases, and there's, and there's some where you can have really good human oversight of the cases, you can have sort of reproducibility of those models, they can be as explainable as possible. But it's still really, really difficult to get FDA approval there. So I, again, I think there's two sides to that coin. Grant And, yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation have stuff wrong, because like, in that medical case, you talked about, you could see the value of using the same kind of technology that would be used to identify a human target, and then attack it, you could take that same capability, and instead use it in a search and rescue sort of scenario, right? Where you're flying something overhead, and you're trying to find, you know, pictures or images of people that might be lost out there. Same kind of thing, right, so, so where how, go ahead, you're gonna say something was, but I can see. Elizabeth And there's even simpler cases in medical, where it's like, you know, there's a shortage of radiologists right now in the US and, and you can use, you can use AI to be able to triage some of that imaging. So, because right now, people are having to, in some cases, wait a really long time to get their sort of imaging reviewed. And so can can, can, and should AI help there. There's also another one along those same lines, where, with things like CT scans, you can use what's called super resolution or de noising the image. And basically, you can use much less radiation in the first place to take the imaging and then use AI on top of it to be able to essentially enhance the image. So again, you know, ultimately exposing the patient to less less radiation. So yeah, there's it's pretty interesting when when we can and can't use it. Mm hmm. Carlos Yeah. And I think just to add a little bit to the one we can and can't right, so, advancements through drug discovery have largely been driven through AI in the same fashion weaponization of various all drugs or other types of drugs have also benefited from Ai. So, I mean, from a society's perspective, you know, you really have to Evaluate not only greater good, but that that ultimate use case like, where where do you want to make a stance around that technology piece. And understanding both sides really provides that discussion space that's needed, you have to be able to ask really honest questions to problems that are, you know, what you can see in the future. Grant So is the safeguard through all of this topic around ethics? Is the safeguard, basically, the moral compass that's found in the humans themselves? Or do we need to have less, you know, legislative or policy bodies? Right, that puts us together? Or is it a blending? What do you what's your take? Elizabeth Um, it's interesting, the UK just came out with a national AI strategy. And they are basically trying to build an entire AI assurance industry. And, and their approach is, so they want to make sure that they're make, they're keeping it so that you can be innovative in the space, right? They don't want to make it so regulatory, that you can't innovate. But they also want to make sure that there's consumer trust in in AI. So they're putting together from a, you know, a national perspective, a guidelines and tests and, and ways to give consumers confidence in whether a model is you know, reproducible, accurate, etc, etc, while at the same time not stifling innovation, because they know, you know, how important that AI is for a essentially a country's way to compete and and the opportunities for GDP that it provides as well. Grant Hmm, absolutely. Yeah, I can go ahead, Carlos. Carlos No, I think it's his it's your question. Left alone, should we got kind of govern ourselves? I think, I think we've proven that we can't do that as a people, right. So we need to have some sort of regulatory, and committee around the review of these things. But it has to be in the light of, you know, wanting to provide a better experience higher quality, deliver value, right. And I think I think when you start with, how do we get the technology adopted and in place and deployed in a fashion where society can benefit, you start making your decisions around, you know, what the good pieces are, and you'll start your start really starting to see the outliers around Hey, wait a second, that doesn't kind of conform to the guidelines that we wanted to get this implemented with? Elizabeth And I think also to your question, I think it's happening at all a lot of levels. Right. So there's, you know, state regulation around privacy and use of AI and facial recognition. And, and there's, you know, some the FDA is putting together some regulation, and then also individual companies, right, so people like Microsoft, etc, have have big groups around, you know, ethics and how AI should be used for, you know, them as a company. So I think it's happening at all levels. Grant Yeah, like we said, that is a people we need to have some level of governing bodies around this to, and of course, that's never the end all protection, for sure. But it is, it is a step in the right direction to to help monitoring and governance. Okay, so last question, right? This is gonna sound a little bit tangential, if I could use that word tangential. It's given the state of AI where it is today. Is it artificial intelligence? Or is it augmented intelligence? Carlos I can go with that. So I think it's a little bit of both. So I think the result is, is to augment our intelligence, right? We're really trying to make better decisions. Some of those are automated, some of those are not we're really trying to inform a higher quality decision. And yes, it's being applied in an artificial intelligence manner, because that's the technology that we're applying, but it's really to augment our lives. Right. And, and we're using it in a variety of use cases. We've talked about a lot of them here. But there's 1000s of use cases in AI that we don't even see today that are very easy. Something as simple as searching on the internet. That's helping a lot from you know, misspelling things and, you know, not not identifying exactly what you want and recommendation engines come and say, you know, I think I'm looking for this instead. It's like, Absolutely, thanks for saving me the frustration. We're really augmenting Life in that point. Grant The reason why I asked that as part of this ethics piece is one of the things I noticed. And as I work with the organizations, there's a misunderstanding of how far and what AI can do at times. And and there's this misunderstanding of therefore, what's my responsibility in this. And my argument is, it's augmented intelligence in terms of its outcome, and therefore, we can't absolve the outcomes and pass that off to AI and say, Oh, well, it told me to do this, just in the same breath, we can't absolve and say, We're not responsible for the use cases either. And the way in which we use it, so we own as a human human race, we own the responsibility to pick an apply the right use cases, to even be able to challenge the AI, insights and outcomes from that, and then to take the ownership of that in what the impacts are. Agree, disagree. Carlos Yeah, I would really agree with that. And if you if you think about how it's implemented, in many cases, right now, the best use of AI is with human oversight, right. So it's sort of, you know, AI is maybe making initial decision, and then the human is reviewing that, or, you know, making a judgment call based on that input. So it's, it's sort of helping human decisioning instead of replacing human decisioning. And I think that's a pretty important kind of guiding principle where, where, wherever that may be necessary, we should do it. There's one, you know, the Zillow case that that happened recently, where they were using machine learning to automatically buy houses, and it was not. There was not enough human oversight in that, and I think they ended up losing something like $500 million in the case, right. So it's not really an ethics thing, but but it's just an example where in a lot of these cases, the best scenario is to have aI paired with human oversight. Yeah, yeah. Great, I think. Grant Yeah, no, go right ahead. Yeah. Elizabeth You mentioned you mentioned being able to challenge the AI, right, and that that piece is really important, in most of the cases, especially in the one that he just mentioned, around that. That Zillow case, right, without the challenging piece, you don't have a path to improvement, you just kind of assume the role, and you get into deep trouble, like you saw there. But that challenging piece is really where innovation starts, you need to be able to get back and question kind of, you know, is this exactly what I want? And if it's not, how do I change it? Right. And that's how we drive kind of innovation in the space? Grant Well, and I would say that that comes full circle to the platform, I saw that your organization's developing, which is to reduce the time and effort it takes to be able to cycle on that right to build the model, get the outcome, evaluate, oh, challenge, make adjustments, but don't make the effort to recast and rebuild that model such that it becomes unaffordable or too much time, I need to be able to iterate on that quickly. And I think as a platform you developed and others that I've seen, you know, continue to reduce that I think it makes it easier for us to do that in it from a from a financially responsible and beneficial perspective. 100% Elizabeth Yeah, one of the one of the features that you mentioned was the versioning. And that really ties into a guiding principle of ethical use as well, which is reproducibility. So if you are, if you want to use a model, you need to be able to reduce, reproduce it reliably. And so you're getting the same kind of outputs. And so that's one of the features that we've put in there to help people that versioning feature to help people, you know, comply with that type of a regulation. Grant I've built enough AI models to know it's tough to go back to a particular version of an AI model and have reproducibility accountability. I mean, there's a whole bunch of LEDs on that. That's exceedingly valuable. That's right. Yeah. Okay, any any final comments for me there? Yeah. Carlos I think for my side, I'm really interested to see where we go as people with ethics in AI. I think we've touched on the transparency and visibility required to have these conversations around ethics and our ethical use of AI. But really, in this case, we're gonna start seeing more and more use cases and solutions in their lives or we're gonna butt up against these ethical questions, and being able to have an open forum where we can discuss this. That's really up to us. To provide we have to provide the space to have these conversations, and in some cases, arguments around the use of the technology. And I'm really looking forward to, you know, what comes out of that, you know, how long does it take for us to get to that space where, you know, we're advancing in technology and addressing issues while we advanced the technology. Grant Excellent. Thanks, Carlos. Elizabeth. Elizabeth Yeah, so for me as a as a product person in particular, I'm really interested in these the the societal conversation that we're having, and the regulations that are starting to be put together and kind of the guidelines from larger companies and companies like ours that are, you know, contributing to this thought leadership. And so what's really interesting for me is being able to take those, that larger conversation and that larger knowledge base and distill it down into simple tools for people like small and medium businesses that can then feel confident using AI and these things are just built in sort of protecting them from making some mistakes. So I'm really interested to see sort of how that evolves and how we can productize it to make it simple for people. Grant Yeah, yeah. Bingo. Exactly. Okay, everyone. I'd like to thank Carlos Elizabeth, for joining me here today. Wonderful conversation that I enjoyed that a lot. Thanks, everyone for listening. And until next time, get some AI with your ethics. Thank you for joining Grant on ClickAI Radio. Don't forget to subscribe and leave feedback. And remember to download your free ebook, visit ClickAIRadio.com now.

Elizabeth Molina: [00:00:00] Hello, my beautiful people, I'm Elizabeth Molina, and I am your beauty guru in this podcast, I will share with you all you need to know about beauty from the inside out, you will gain access to the latest beauty trends from head to toe, mind and soul. You will hear from experts themselves, the trendy influencers, celebrities, athletes and of course, myself on all things beauty. This is definitely the place to be. Biohacking, beauty, hacking, life, hacking into the wife. For your beauty routine, are you ready for your global obsession? Today's guest is none other than Hala Tala. She is the host of Young and Profiting podcast, frequently ranked as the number one educational podcasts across all apps. Hala is also the CEO of Yapp Media, a full service social media and podcast marketing agency for top protesters, celebrities and CEOs projected to generate over one million in revenue in its first year. She is well known for her engagement following an influence on LinkedIn. She's also known for so many other things that we're going to get into in this episode. You're going to hear things from her that you haven't heard before. She is going to sing. She has an amazing, beautiful voice. She has a story and it is an impactful one. It is a story of resiliency. It is a story of if you set your mind to something and you work hard enough, you will get there. Hala takes us through her journey. And I'm so excited for you guys to listen to a never before heard all of the different adversities that she has gone through and how she's doing it today. So I'm so excited for you guys to meet her.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:01:40] Welcome, Hala.   Hala Tala: [00:01:42] Thank you so much, Elizabeth. I'm so happy to be here.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:01:45] Awesome. I'm so happy to have you here. This is going to be such a great episode. I cannot wait. I'm just going to dive right in because there's so much content. The more I hear you, the more I learn about you. I'm just like, wait, what when did this happen? Like, how old are you again? So I was I want people to know about you and to just hear your amazing voice and power and like, pun intended. You guys will stay tuned for that. So, Hala, let's get to it. How did you begin in the industry you are today? You are a powerhouse to be reckoned with. You have your hands in everything. I don't think there you have enough toes and fingers to put in all the jars that you're in. And tell us a little bit about your back story. Like, let's make it like maybe like not that long. Tell us about all your your journey through radio, through your corporate. Like, tell us about that before we dive in.   Hala Tala: [00:02:37] Yeah, of course. I'll give you the really quick version. So I started my career at Hot 97. It's one of the biggest radio stations in New York, in America for hip hop and R and B. And so I got this internship, my junior year of college. I was in the corporate side, the production side I got I was doing really well. So then they recruited me to be Angie Martinez's assistant in the studio area. So this was like a really coveted role. It was super demanding. And so what happened is I ended up dropping out of college to take it full time and to really take my chances and try to see if I could grow a career in radio. And so I was Angie Martinez Gopher, basically, where I would do all her research. I would answer calls, I would babysit her kids, I would go get clothes for her. I would, you know, go driving around with her to events and was basically her apprentice for three years. And it was totally for free. I never got paid a dime from Hot 97 or from Angie Martinez. So I dropped out of school, like I said. And that was very difficult because I came from a family of doctors. So my dad was a doctor. All my siblings were in med school or, you know, just graduated. I'm the youngest of the baby, the family. And here I was working for free, dropped out of college, working at a radio station when everybody else was in med school.   Hala Tala: [00:03:49] So I was actually looked at as like the failure of the family, which is really funny now. And but I was working really hard, you know, they just didn't understand what I was doing. So then paying roll opened up at Hot 97 and it was to be Andrew Martinez's producer. And for a while I was doing that job. And every morning I would I was already doing that job from before. The reason why she had fired her producer is that he was really underperforming. And I was already doing that job for many, many months. And they decided to instead of hire me, I wasn't even getting paid minimum wage, but literally at the station every day had a key card as if I was employee, like, highly legal. Right. I, I still instead of giving me a job, they decided to promote somebody who is in the video department, who had no production experience, no producer experience whatsoever. And so I was pretty upset. I was a young girl. I was like twenty at the time or twenty one. And I, I sent a text to Jaroussky who is now very popular on Hot 97 all the time and still has his show. And I said he was the one who got the producer role. And I said, you know, I don't feel good today.   Hala Tala: [00:04:55] I don't want to come into the station. If you want to be the producer, learn it on your own and he showed that text to Angie, Angie got upset, fired me, and essentially tried to blackball me from the industry and told all the deejays they couldn't talk to me anymore, didn't even let me say goodbye. I had to pack. I didn't get to pack up my stuff. I just was never allowed to go there again, never allowed to talk to anyone again. And it was really traumatic, a traumatic experience for me, looking back and really impacted the future of my life very dramatically. Because had that never happened, I may have been on Hot 97 as an on air personality right now. And that was literally my trajectory. That's anybody who works for free at the station. It's for that reason they're basically saying work for free because we're going to make you a star, you know, and that's what I was working for free for. So anyway, I didn't let that hold me back. I think they fired me on a Thursday. And by Sunday, I had built like a website called the consortium hip hop strawberry plant Dotcom. And I decided I was going to recruit girls and create this network, this female network. And we were going to empower each other and support each other because I felt like as a woman, I wasn't getting the right exposure and opportunities in the hip hop industry.   Hala Tala: [00:06:05] And so I was going to recruit other girls. So we had girls from Def Jam, VH1, iHeart radio. All these different girls joined us. We started the sort of hip hop and at the height of it we were 50 girls strong. We were hosting the hottest parties and concerts in New York, the same DJs who wouldn't pay me minimum wage. I started hosting parties with them. If you go look on my Facebook and Instagram, you'll see fliers with me on with deejay Carmello and Funkmaster Flex and all these huge DJs that I used to host parties for. And we saw those concerts and a radio show. So it was great. And at the height of that, MTV scouted us for a reality TV show and they filmed us all summer. We got a studio on Broadway. It was finally going to be a way for me to, like, really monetize this endeavor. Like we were a big name in the tri state, but we weren't really making that much money just from events. 50 girls that money spreads quickly can spread thin across so many girls. I was the president, so I would get paid the most. But still, MTV filmed us all summer and then pulled the plug. So last minute they decided they're not going to air the show. And then again, it was one of those moments where where? What do I do now? You know, my life was kind of crumbling.   Hala Tala: [00:07:12] And then a piece of the story that I usually never tell. But I am going to tell it because it's relevant. It's the first time I've ever telling this is after MTV didn't pick our show. I shut down the blogsite, but I also at the same time, it was around twenty fourteen and there was lots of war going on in Gaza, Palestine, same thing. That's what's happening right now. And I shut down my website and I just became like an advocate for Palestine and I raised over three hundred thousand dollars for Palestine. And I had all these fundraising events and that's all I concentrated on for a long time. Yeah, but it was funny because I shut down my website and I basically exited from the entertainment industry and talking about Palestine and like being like political like that was like the nail in my coffin. So like nobody fucked with me anymore. A lot of the people who who supported me stop supporting me. I lost a lot of friends, like a lot of people just didn't mess with me anymore because I started promoting Palestine. So essentially. I exited the entertainment industry and I thought I would never get back on a mic again, so I was like, I'm just going to be I want to be better.   Hala Tala: [00:08:17] I want a more meaningful life. What I was doing before was all fake. It was so such like not sexual, but like we used to host parties because we were pretty girls and I just wanted to stay away from that. I was like, it's time for me to grow up. There's people dying in the world. I want to fix that. I want to be a good person and I want to work on myself because I felt like I had 50 girls under me, all kind of banking on my success for themselves to be successful. It was like I had to do like 90 percent of the work for all these other girls to get all this success. And I was like, I just want to do it on my own. So I went got my MBA. I basically forced myself into the graduate program because I did not have the I would add a two point three undergrad GPA. So I didn't deserve to get into graduate school. But they let me in and then I got a 4.0. I graduated number one of my class and then got a job at Hewlett Packard, started Young and Profiting, which is now a number one education podcast and worked at Disney for a little while, then launched the media. So that is my story in a nutshell. You can dig into any part that you want.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:09:21] Oh, my God, I love that you I was like, please do it quick because you have so many lives that you live that you like. Bam, bam, bam. Here you go. It wasn't   Hala Tala: [00:09:29] That quick. I was like, oh, shoot, I'm kind of going too long. And, you   Elizabeth Molina: [00:09:33] Know, it was it was really good because it was it was definitely quick. There's so much to be said there. So I kind of want to, like you said, a lot there. And I want to unpack that a little bit. And I want to go back to what I keep on hearing is your resiliency like you are that chart that you see of of like the the heartbeat that goes up and down, up and down, up and down. And so I want to take it way back when when you were little, OK? Because it seems like you've been dealing with the rejection, people telling, you know, people shutting the door in your face after you put in the work. It's not like you're lazy, right? Because there are some people who are like, I just want to show up and be pretty. I'm going to show up and be a voice. And you have a beautiful voice. And we were talking about that before. I wanted you to tell us a little bit more about your middle school, high school, because I feel like there's a story there that relates to what we're going to get into, which is what fuels you, because there's a fueling you. That's a really massive like there's this fire in Holla. You guys have to watch her and she's always on. And so, like, we need to know the secret to that feel. But where did little Holer become? So, like, I'm going to do it. I'm going to get no matter what.   Hala Tala: [00:10:41] Yeah. So like as a kid, I was always like really, really outgoing. So like you said, I was a great singer. And so I'd always like at family parties like the ones singing and like wanting to be the star of the show. I was the baby. I was cute. So like, I got a lot of attention when I was growing up. And in middle school, I was like decently popular. I had a lot of friends. I'm a Palestinian American family. My parents are really open like a lot of our family. Friends were Christian and Jewish, and we were just like a normal family. And I would I would like say that, like, people treated us like we were Italian before nine eleven. Right. So it's like we were we were ethnic, but we weren't, like, weird or we weren't bad, you know what I mean? And like, my dad was a doctor. And so, like, you know, my friends, a sleepover. And it wasn't like we were just a normal family. And I mean to say this because after 9/11, all of that changed. And so I used to be into soccer. I used to be like in the plays and like always get like either the co-lead or the lead in the plays and like solos and all this kind of stuff. The 9/11 happened and I felt like I never got any opportunities for a long time. Like so like end of middle school, all of high school, just no opportunities.   Hala Tala: [00:11:50] Like I had the best voice in school. I would say the one thing, the one saving grace that I had an amazing course teacher and he still always gave me a solo in the concert. So if I didn't have that, I'd probably have like no confidence. But I knew that I had the best voice in school, but they would never put me on the lead in the plays. I wasn't even allowed to be in the talent show. Can you believe that? Having the best voice in school and they're telling you you're not allowed to be like you're not good enough to be in the talent show. Recently I lived in a really white town and I was like one of the only brown people. And before nine eleven, it was definitely better in terms of like how the community treated me and my other cousins who lived down the street. But then after that, after 9/11, it was like I just felt like I got zero opportunities. I tried out for the volleyball team. No, I tried it for the Chilean team. No, I tried it for the play. No, I tried to be on student council. No, I tried to be in the towns, you know, like literally. No, no, no, it's not it wasn't normal, you know, and before nine eleven, I would get a lot more opportunities. And I literally think that there's been so many opportunities that I haven't gotten because of literally my name. And like, that sucks, you know, even job applications.   Hala Tala: [00:12:56] I think I've been rejected because people are like, call it. Oh, that sounds really weird. She probably doesn't even know how to speak English like. And it's like the opposite. I'm like the most American person ever. Right. But like, it's just it's tough, you know, and I really hope that that changes. But the big moral of this. Story here is that by the time I got to college, I was so used to rejection that I was like unstoppable. And when I went to college, I went to NJT. It was like nerdy nerd central, right. So many like just engineers, kind of geeks. So I got to school and I was like the hottest girl in school, you know what I mean? And so I was like I got on the cheerleading team. I got in the play. I was like in my sorority and just rocked it. And it was like a really big confidence boost because I went from, like, having all these friends and stuff in middle school and then in high school just kind of being normal and not really getting too many opportunities to in college, like really just soaring and sticking out as a sore thumb. And then I got that internship at Hot 97 and then I started just hanging out with celebrities and dating Chris Brown, for example, like just, you know, had like a really cool life as a 19 year old. And and then the rest is history.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:14:04] Wait, did you date him before Rihanna or after Rihanna?   Hala Tala: [00:14:07] Right after Rihanna was giving me.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:14:10] I was going to ask you, like, how was that? Because that's I think that's a whole another podcast.   Hala Tala: [00:14:16] Yeah, he was nice. I mean, it was like I was his girlfriend for me. I wasn't anything serious. It wasn't like we were like very, very serious. But he's taking me out to dinner and I had to sign a waiver before we the first date that we ever had his like driver. He gets Chris gets out of the car and his driver hands me like a waiver that basically says, like, I can't tell anyone that we're on this date. Oh, my God. Here I am saying it because it's like nothing happens, so.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:14:42] Oh, that is that is a good story. Like, really good story. Did you get any dance moves from from Chris?   Hala Tala: [00:14:48] Did you know when you think constantly every day, like he would just be like walking around singing the whole time, he was really an artist at heart.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:14:57] Did you ever sing with him like.   Hala Tala: [00:14:59] Yeah, I used to. So at the time I was a singer and so we would be in the car listening to my music. And he used to give me feedback on my music. And if I really wanted to have been a singer, I had the connections back in the I could have really pushed for it, but it wasn't I really wasn't like, you see how passionate I am with podcasting. If I had been I wanted to be a singer, but I'm not like the best dancer in the world. And I knew that, like, you really have to be both if you really, really want to succeed. And I have a great voice, but I'm not like Christina Aguilera. So it's like I either need to be like the best singer in the world or I need to be really good at singing, really good at dancing. And I knew I wasn't that. So I pivoted to radio.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:15:38] Ok, well, I'm going to have to ask you how, like, do you mind giving us a little sample of your music? Because I want to hear you sing like I never heard you sing on a podcast.   Hala Tala: [00:15:49] I've never sang, not even on my own podcast. Elizabeth So this is a big ask. So I'm going to sing a song I tried out for American Idol. I didn't make it. Obviously, I tried out for American Idol and I did the Keyshia Cole love song. Would you say   Elizabeth Molina: [00:16:06] Was it the dancing or was it just because, like,   Hala Tala: [00:16:09] No, I was wrong. I got to the second round, like, I got through the first round. The second time I literally went up, started singing for two seconds and they were like, next. And I was like, OK, like they just didn't like how I looked pretty much. Now I'm young and profiting, you know, everything happens for a reason. OK, I will sing. And by the way, I have not warmed up. This is totally just a lie. But yes, let's do it, OK. I used to think that I wasn't fun enough, and I used to think that I wasn't wild enough, but I wouldn't waste my time trying to figure out why you playing games. What's this all about? And I can't Believe, You're hurting me. I met your girl. What a difference. What you see. Have you seen any but I guess it was all just make Believe, oh, love. That was so good and bad.   Hala Tala: [00:17:25] But anyway, that was those mean honestly, guys. Now, I got a little heavy thinking, probably like a year and a half or so. Oh, my God. Sorry if I hurt your ears.   Elizabeth Molina : [00:17:35] No, you did it. That was so good. So what what made you change? What was like your turning point? We were like, I'm not going to be a singer anymore because you have a great voice and you've always had a great voice since you were young and you still do, which is, I think, part of the magic in terms of like you have the beauty, you have the brains and you have the voice.   Hala Tala: [00:17:53] Yeah, I think really the pivotal point was being in hot any seven and seeing the music industry and kind of being abused by the industry. I mean, I had a lot of people paying attention to me. I was the only girl in the studio area at Hot 97. So I met people like Kanye West, Jay-Z, Drake, you name it, Trey Songz, all the big people of that time. And a lot of these producers and their managers would approach me. And I was really young and they would try to sleep with me and they would try to entice me to do things. I had Mack Maine telling me if I was his girlfriend, he would make me the next Nicki Minaj. And I just I was like, you know what, this seems like I need to sleep my way to the top. And it's not really me. And I just pivoted. I just felt like I could honestly I really think I could have dated Mack Maine and been a part of young money like that. I literally had people at Young Money telling me that and I just couldn't do it. I just didn't do it. And then I just kind of pivoted and just kept working in radio and kept working on other stuff.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:19:00] So now what I'm hearing is you could have been in young money, but now you're young and profiting. Yeah.   Hala Tala: [00:19:06] How funny is that? And I've never told that story either, but it's the truth. And even Mack, Maine, he's reached out to me recently and was like, well, like you've been doing some crazy things. And it's just so funny because it's like, yeah. And I'm really happy that I didn't, like, sell myself out like that. And my boyfriend's a very famous music producer. His name is Harry Fraud. I've been with him for like 12 years. And so he does music for French Montana, he does music for recrossing and the Weeknd and all that kind of stuff. And so he produced my first album. And he he also didn't want me to be a singer because he was like, listen, I see the girls, I see what they go through. Like, it's not for you. It's not a good life. Like and so, like, he kind of steered me away from it, too. And it's like I feel like, honestly, this is going to sound so messed up. I feel like if I took that path, I would have been raped like ten times. Like, I know it's sad to say that, but like literally that's the kind of vibe that it was.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:19:59] Wow. How thank you so much for being so honest and just like having no filter, because I think that a lot of girls need to hear this. And you are setting an example of what like a real role model is, right? Like, listen, I lived the life. This is what's really there. Do you want to take that by and like I, however, was not in the music industry because, as you know, my voice is not as angelic as yours, even on my best day. But I was in the modeling space since I was five. And I was actually I got into like America's Next Top Model the first season when I was really young. And then my dad said no, because they have to put cameras all over. He wouldn't sign I was an eighteen yet. And he said no, because, you know, they record you in the shower and he's like, no, like, my dad was very conservative. He's like prostitutes. That's for prostitutes. So he like there were a lot of opportunities that I had. And it's the same story. Like had I stayed in that, I probably would have been. And I've been in situations as well. I'm sure you and I can go back with stories. And that's a whole nother podcast as well.   Hala Tala: [00:20:59] I know. And I think so many girls have those stories, unfortunately, but yeah.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:21:02] So I think it's great because we are only shown the beautiful image. Right. Let's go back to the beauty we kept on talking about how you're beautiful, how you're stunning and how like that also opened the doors in some ways. And then it also shut the doors in some ways because it was intimidating. But I really love it that you're talking about this because people now can see, OK, it's there's an image, what goes behind it, what's happening on the back end. And like, you kind of shed a little bit of light there. So, ladies, if you're listening, all that glitters isn't gold and just know what you're signing up for for sure,   Hala Tala: [00:21:33] Because I'm telling you, I was so my first year or two hundred eighty seven. The reason why I got the internship, because I wanted to push my music and so I'd spend my days at the station and then at night I'd be recording music with different producers and things like that. And then all the different ANZAAS and things from all the different record labels would come into Hot 97. And they knew that I was singer and they would be like, oh, like, you know, you know, you could talk to my record label and basically insinuating, like, if you give me a blowjob, like literally like literally saying, yes, literally like soliciting that. And it just happened over and over again. I was like, you know what, this just really seems like this. The only way is to be like that. And I'm not like that. And so I just pivoted, you know? And so honestly, I've never really. Said that out loud, I don't know why I am telling you this right now, but it's like I feel like your listeners probably need to hear it. Like if you guys really want to know why I didn't decide to become a singer and why it pivoted, it's because it was like seemed like the only way I could get there would be through doing things that I wasn't comfortable with.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:22:37] Wow, thank you for sharing that with us, with our listeners. I'm glad that I was able to get that out of you. I think the message was ready to be heard. And I think, you know, we're coming out of a pandemic. People are craving for attention, craving to be seen, to be heard. And I think this is also like an opportunity for people to maybe see themselves in this position. And now hearing this, this can be empowering. So can you just share with us how you kind of deflected that?   Hala Tala: [00:23:07] Well, first of all, I just want to take it back and I want to remind everybody that this was 10 years ago and I was like 19, 20, 21, you know what I mean? So I was very, very young. And so I would I would just like go with people like if if they said something like, you know, inappropriate, I would just stop responding and just, you know, let them know that that's not really what I was into. But in terms of, like, how I got over it all, I started my own path. I started my own website. I got out of that Hot 97 environment that was really abusing me. I mean, they were abusing. Me sexually, in terms of like the people like, you know, allowing guests and artists to, like, always hit on me, like leveraging the fact that I was a pretty girl, that all these, like, celebrities wanted to be around and everything like that. And then also but also like not paying me and compensating me. And and in terms of, like, all the value that I was bringing for all the actual work that I was doing. Right. I think what empowered me was leaving, even though I was kicked out because I was just like I was too, like, you know, star struck by being Hot 97 and being like, holla from Hot 97 and being able to everybody being like, oh my gosh, how did you get that cool job? You get to meet so many celebrities.   Hala Tala: [00:24:18] Oh, my God. And so as a young girl, I was like, yeah, I'm the shit. You know, I am meeting all these celebrities. I am partying with Chris Brown. I am you know, I'm in the VIP every night, you know. But once I started my own thing, the sort of hip hop and and I was the CEO and I was the owner and like, I wasn't going to be in uncomfortable situations anymore. And it was all me and I was the boss. Everything changed. You know, everybody treated with me with more respect. I was never in those situations anymore because I wouldn't put myself in those situations, like I would get in those situations at Hot 97, because it's like those managers are eight hours or whatever would be at the station and just think it was OK to, like, approach me like that, you know? So it's like I got to make my own circles once I was my own boss and created my only.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:25:06] I love that, I love that because you took your power back. You're like, no, I'm not going to be under that. I'm going to make my own lane. And when you make your own lane, you're young and profiting and you're just soaring like every single day. There's like something else you're working on and you're being very successful. So, guys, if you're paying attention, if you're watching this, like, pay attention to how she is, you're on the lookout because she's doing amazing things. And I cannot wait to see all the other things. So let's take it. Let's go back into this image. We spoke a lot about you being so cute when you were a baby. You got so much attention from your family. Then in school, you, like, wanted to be the star you use, that you had a voice, you got some jobs because you you I think you say to yourself, like, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, you are a pretty girl. You still are just like you are. You still are. And so like, let's not kid ourselves. Like, you also have to look a certain way to be in these scenarios. So what is your take on the image? Like we talk about we spoke about this a tiny bit before we talk about beauty. And when people think of beauty, they're like, oh, it's just makeup, lashes, hair, a wig and a dress. Like, it's so stupid, but it's so important when you're talking about especially like in the music industry, in the beauty industry, like modeling TV, even it's Haddock's, which I know you're going to do. And we're going to talk about that as well. But like that matters the way you show up to the world, the impact that you make. People do judge you by your first impression. So I want to hear your take on this, because you built a business on the image and how you present yourself, not only like your physical, but like your brand. You are very branded on all platforms.   Hala Tala: [00:26:42] Yeah, I think that's a great question. And something that I just want to say that's unique to my situation is that like in middle school and even high school, I wasn't considered like, oh, she's like a pretty girl in school. And that's because everybody was white and I look different. And so, like, actually nobody saw my beauty. And I look back at the pictures, I'm like, well, I look kind of the same. I look, why didn't I get. So it was the 9/11 thing as well. But like also I just think that I look different. I wasn't a blonde hair, blue eyed girl, and those were all the the girls that everybody thought was pretty. But once I got to college and it was like really diverse, all of a sudden I was like a very pretty girl and then hot and seven and whatever. So it's funny because it's like I didn't get that kind of sexual attention a lot in middle school and high school, which I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing. But whatever in terms of image, I think it's what you want to put out there to the world. I feel like a lot of it is a lot of really good marketing strategy is knowing your brand, knowing your colors, knowing your fans, being consistent. I have a really aesthetic. I taught myself, had a graphic design, and I feel like all of that has a lot to do with it. I had a blog sites. I've written over four thousand blogs, so really know how to write a story. And I think like. Me, for the first couple of years of young and profiting, I was the one writing on my social posts and basically being able to scale that so that my team can kind of learn the different formulas that I would use in terms of my storytelling and how I'd write my posts and the different things I would talk about.   Hala Tala: [00:28:14] I also think just knowing your story really well, one of the things that I do is for all my clients and myself, we create story journals, so I'll take all their podcast episodes, just like what I'm doing right now when they guest on shows and we'll transcribe them and we'll get all their little stories and start to put together a journal so that our team can kind of pull from them and ghostwrite on their behalf all these different little stories that they have. And I think it's important to know your stories. And if you haven't really took time to sit down and write them all out, you should. And then you have a foundation for a book or something. If you want to write that in the future because you have all your stories in one place and then you kind of know how to articulate them well and things like that. And I think just knowing what you stand for, like a young and profiting, I feel like, you know, I stand for success. I stand for wellness. I stand for bettering yourself or learning how to make money for being your own boss, for learning how to side hustle, learning how to be an entrepreneur like those are all the pillars of my brand. And I think it's about talking about those pillars and monitoring what you put on social media so that it's not so random, I think that's the key. It's like be strategic about it. Think about it a bit. And then and then, like, release your stuff.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:29:23] I love that, I love your. I never heard about that, taking the content and making stories out of it. I'm like, I need your help. This is so good. This is so good. So so what is your take on beauty and image? Like, what do you what does that mean to you?   Hala Tala: [00:29:42] Beauty and image. Yeah. I am somebody who likes to be put together, and I think that it's important for you to have good hygiene and it's important for you to look presentable and it's important for you to look the part. And it's also scientifically proven. I'll give you guys an example. There's something called the Texas crosswalk study. You know, jaywalking is illegal, but if you put a bunch of strangers together and a guy in a suit starts jaywalking, everybody will follow him. But if a guy in shorts and a tank top or somebody who was wearing like dirty shoes or shoes, shoes with holes in them or something starts walking across a crosswalk, no one's following him. And that's because people are obedient to people who look polished, who look presentable and things like that. And so you actually portray more confidence both internally yourself and outwardly when you look your best. And it really depends on how you feel. So like if you feel great in jeans and a T-shirt and that's what you feel most competent, and then everybody else is going to feel your confidence and you're going to give them permission to, like, follow you. That was my human behavior explanation   Elizabeth Molina: [00:30:54] For why I'm like, that's so scientifical. So what is it? What does it mean to you? Like, OK, let's take away the scientific part, just like a hollow like on a day off. Like, what does beauty mean to you?   Hala Tala: [00:31:08] Beauty means that I feel comfortable in my skin, that I feel confidence, that I'm not shy to have the camera on. And I feel like I'm looking my best. I've had a little bit of time to fix myself. I love wearing makeup and it's not necessarily for anyone else. I really just love doing that. And I'm a very girly girl. So like, I love doing my hair. I love doing my makeup. I take care of my skin. I always go get facials and all that and everybody's different. I know a lot of beautiful girls that are very natural and don't do any of that stuff. But it's like I also find it like fun, you know? So I think it just depends on who you are. And I think beauty, like as cliche as it sounds, is definitely the eyes of the beholder. I just think as long as you feel comfortable and confident, that's what beauty is.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:31:58] Just to follow a follow up question for you, do you think that, like the way that you grew up, like you said, you grew up in a town that was mostly white and I could relate to your story as being a model, like back then at the age of five, going on casting calls. And I'm the only little girl with brown hair, brown eyes. And here I am auditioning for a Tropicana or Kellogg's. And I'm like, why aren't I getting the part? I'm better than these girls. I can cry on demand. But what's happening here? And then, you know, they said, you don't have the American look. And so, like, I can relate to you on that end. But growing up and it's from a different culture, like beauty is different in every culture. So, like, did that clash with you in any way in terms of you growing up in in your home and being confident and then going outside on like that? Nobody else looks like me. And then all of a sudden you're trending because Kim Kardashian is. And so like now.   Hala Tala: [00:32:47] Exactly. It's like it's like all of a sudden Kim was hot and then it was like, oh, well, it's hot. You know, something that you guys should note is that like in college. So when everything was going well, when I was like Miss Popular and all the frat boys would try to make me like the princess of their frat or whatever it was at the same time. So I was like basically like homecoming queen at NJT. Like, you could put me in that box, you know, I was the most popular girl on my class, all that kind of stuff before I dropped out. And at the same time, I was like hated by the Arabic community. They my friends, my childhood best friends. Growing up, I wasn't allowed to be in their weddings. My best friends that I slept over the house every weekend as a kid when they got married in their twenties because they were from conservative families who married them off when they were in their twenties. I wasn't allowed to be in their wedding. And it was because people thought that I dress too slutty, that I was going partying, that I was drinking, that maybe I was, you know, just being too wild, that I was dating boys. And in the Arabic community, even though we were in America, it was like more conservative. And so here I was like finally like accepted in school. And then the Arabic community rejected me, which is just so strange. You know, now I look now I'm just like, ha ha. Like now like I'm the most successful one at all, you bitches. Right? But like so like I was ostracized by the Arabic community in New Jersey. But honestly, I really was not that bad. Like, I was just a normal college girl. I was going out to parties. I was wearing short dresses and I was drinking once in a while and wasn't that crazy, like, you know. But they treated me as if I was like some like cocaine addict, a heroin addict or something like, you know, I got.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:34:45] Whatever, yeah, no, no, no, and that's a good story, and I wanted to talk about that because a lot of times, like we live in America, this is a melting pot and we come from different cultures. And sometimes our cultures say one thing like mentioned to you, like with my dad and modelling, my dad was like prostitutes, prosit. Like he would like I could. I still don't wear red nail polish or any kind of bright colors because my father has like, instilled this in my brain that like that is for like a naughty girl and you can't be naughty and like you'll never find me with red. Like it's always like some sort of nude or like white is like the most that I'll do. And I feel like I'm having anxiety about it.   Hala Tala: [00:35:23] And I feel like there's so many things that probably have impacted me in a similar way. It's so sad. Like, you know, like boys don't have to deal with any of this. No. Like, I remember my cousins in Palestine messaging me, telling me, like, we're ashamed to have you in our family. Because I was like went to a party in college, like literally like that kind of messaging, like from my own family even. And so like I so like that's why, like, now I could give two craps what anybody thinks about me, because I've been burned so many times, like just burned so many times. And so like I just have like the thickest skin, like you really can't get to me.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:36:06] I want our listeners to hear the resiliency, to hear like you crack the formula before the formula cracked you. And what I mean by that is you just said I got burned so many times that it no longer burn. There's nothing to burn, like there's nothing. It's like a threat, like a rope I'm imagining. And you keep on burning it, burning it, and then like it's just thinning out. And then there's like nothing like the fire could be there, but there's nothing to burn. And like when you can get yourself there mentally strong, nothing can stop you. And that makes sense because you have been unstoppable. But I want to take it back to your family a little bit and talk about covid. So let's fast forward back to twenty twenty covid. Let's talk about and if it's OK, it's too much like we can. We don't have to talk about it. But I want to talk about the impact that you have that your dad had on you growing up as a girl, because I know that he was like this force. He was big and supporting people in your family. He was like that person like that. Yeah. Foundation for everyone. And for you, I'm sure, like, he modeled that for you and kind of feel like you are kind of passing he passed the baton to you as like the female version of that. But I just want to make sure that I'm not just putting those ideas.   Hala Tala: [00:37:19] I know it's true. My dad was amazing. So I felt like I would not be who I am, where I am without my dad. My dad was always like, remember when I said, like, the whole Arab community was against me and we in my own family, but never my dad, never my dad, you know? And so, like, he always supported me, always treated me like an equal, always told me I was a star. I always said, follow your dreams like that, kind of that kind of a guy. So my dad grew up in Palestine and during war he was a farmer's son and he had no light growing up. And he used to study on his walks to school where he had light and he was really smart. And he ended up getting a scholarship to Egypt's, got a scholarship to med school, came to America, became a surgeon, then was chief of surgery, opened up medical centers and became really, really successful. And he put all my cousins through college, all his kids through college really wasn't a flashy guy. Like even though he was very, very successful, he would like go shop at Sears. And he spent all his money, like giving it to orphans and people who who needed money to go to college. Because his main thing was like, everybody gave me a scholarship. That's how I'm so successful. So I want to make sure that I can give as many people an opportunity, the same way that I got an opportunity when I was younger.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:38:34] And like literally that's what he dedicated most of his life to, was, you know, fundraising for people to go to college in Palestine and then also sending everybody to school and everything like that. So he was amazing. And such a hard worker was writing a million bucks, doing a million research projects, super ambitious, very like into politics. We would have host dinners with like Hillary Clinton when I was younger and like stuff like that. And he he was great. He was just like such a great guy, great community guy, great family man. And so in March, I got a call. I was living in Brooklyn with my boyfriend and my sister called me up and she's like, call up mom and dad have covid. And at the time I was so me and my boyfriend were crazy about not getting covid. I would like go to the grocery store with, like, glasses and masks. Gloves. I was wearing a mask on the train since I think February. I was I was the only person where I used to work at Disney streaming services. So I'd go from Brooklyn to to New York City. And for a long time I was the only person wearing a mask on the train.   Hala Tala: [00:39:37] I was warning everybody about it. So I was like, Miss, like, I'm never getting covid and I'm doing everything in my power not to get covered. And then I got the call mom and I've covered and I was begging them, I they got covid because my dad had like has diabetes and he was still going to the doctor for like checkups and I was begging them to stop. But anyway, they got covid and I came home and, you know, I decided I was going to come home. I ended up staying home for three months when I thought it was I didn't know what to expect. I thought it was going to die honestly, because nobody had gotten covid at that point. So it's like I come home. My mom and dad are sick, my brother is sick. Me and my sister are like in full gear. My sister's a doctor. So she's like she was like the doctor role. And then my job was like custodian. And I was just like cooking, cleaning and just trying to take care of my family. But it was like miserable. Like we were wearing a mask eight like up until the moment we slept, me and my sister were because it was really scary at the time. Elizabeth, like, we didn't know that it was just mouth to mouth. So I was like spraying the.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:40:41] Cultures with alcohol, spring, everything with alcohol, and it's like we didn't know if we could take off our masks, we didn't know if you could touch our eyes or a mouth and like so it would be like all day taking care of the family. Everybody was sick. My dad was, like, extremely sick. And then, like, we would come downstairs in the basement and like, I couldn't even go get blankets from upstairs because we just thought everything was contaminated. And so we were using, like, old blankets in the basement. I was eating like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches every night. And, like, the only thing I would eat would be at like 11:00 p.m. once we were done with everything because we were afraid to eat the food upstairs. It was it was insane. Anyway, my dad got sicker and sicker and sicker and then know he was basically unresponsive. And like we had we tried bringing an oxygen machine home. Like, the last thing we wanted to do was take him to the hospital. And then finally we called the ambulance to take him to the hospital. And he looked at us like, please, like, I'm never going to see you guys again. And we were like, no, you will like and then they will go away. And honestly, that's the last time I ever saw him alive. And I was we weren't allowed to visit him in the hospital.   Hala Tala: [00:41:44] I got covid. And even though we got covid, they still wouldn't let us go see him, even though he was in the hospital for like a month, maybe like six weeks, and they would not let us go in the hospital. He ended up passing away on May 15th. Twenty twenty. And to me, I think the most traumatic part of that was the fact that for somebody who was so generous, like literally like an angel, like he used to do surgery. So he was a general and vascular surgery. He used to do surgeries for free all the time for people like he saved so many freaking lives. That guy, you know, he was such a good guy. He would like do charity cases all the time and then like for a doctor, nonetheless, who saved lives to, like, had to die alone and like without his family and like, they wouldn't let us see us until he died. It's like I got to go to my dad's hospital room after he was dead. You know, it's like I couldn't even say goodbye. And like, to me, that was definitely the worst part of it all. Like, it's one thing to lose your father. Everybody is going to lose. Everybody is going to die. Everybody's going to lose someone. It was more like not saying goodbye,   Elizabeth Molina: [00:42:51] Especially with your dad being this person, just this human. It just sounds like an angel. Like as you were describing him, I was getting I was like, I'm not going to cry. One hundred percent. Talk about that, because during that, you were so launching your company. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So like that whole part.   Hala Tala: [00:43:30] Yeah. So so what happened was I was working at Disney streaming and while my dad was in the hospital, I would literally try to be on Zoom constantly, like they would let us be on Zoom. And so Disney was like horrible company culture, right? I was my dad was like literally dying and like I was expected to be on every call, every whatever. And so I would work all day, even though I, like, had covid and like was probably still getting over covid all that shit. So I'd work. I'll be on my meetings and I'd have my dad on my iPad on Zoom and in between my meetings I would like talk to him, I'd sing to him. I couldn't know if he heard me or not, but like I would literally was on Zoome with him twenty four hours a day as long as they let me do it. I was on the phone with him while he was in the hospital at least. But I don't know if you could hear me or whatever because he was really unresponsive. So anyway, finally I was in this meeting and my mom calls me and she's like, holla. Like they said that dad's like dying and like we have 20 minutes to get to the hospital and like, if we want to see him and say goodbye. And so we I just was like, close all my stuff and like ran to the hospital, like we drove to the hospital and then they called us on the way. And so that he had passed away. And then so like when I got there, he was like had just died and so. I just I remember they would only let us go up one by one, which, like, sucked, it's like I didn't even get to, like, say goodbye with my family, you know? And so it's like they only let us go up one by one. And so it's like I went up there and I remember telling him, like. It's everything that you did is not in vain, you know. Now I'm going to make it.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:45:07] So don't say sorry, don't say sorry, because this needs to be heard, it needs to come out like this is your dad is still here and president like I just wanted you to know and everyone listening because you're not the only one, right?   Hala Tala: [00:45:24] Yeah, 100 percent. And if I tell that story, it's for everybody else. I mean, I just told you, listen, you gave me so much opportunity. I'm going to make sure that everybody knows our name. Everybody knows your name, everybody knows my name and like and I got you. And we're going to and everything's going to change and that I'm going to make a difference the same way that you made a difference. And so I just promised him that. And I just I remember I was like screaming in the hospital, like, I promise I'm going to make you proud. I'm going to make you proud. Everything's like everything that you ever wish for me is going to come true. And a lot of it did already. So it's just really cool that, you know, sometimes death is a great motivator. You realize that like. Life is limitless, and I was really working hard before that, but it just made me like, you know, put myself first and really, really work hard and focus and and I just used it as a way to, like, launch myself, because then when my dad was in the hospital, I started a business called Yapp Media. And Heather Monahan is one of my mentors. And basically I was like, just I'm always so helpful to everyone.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:46:30] So I'm always, like, hopping on calls and teaching people stuff and just being helpful. That's like my personality. And so this lady had the money and she's like this big influencer on LinkedIn. She was like, your stuff is so good, your marketing is so good. I want to learn from you. And so I would go on these calls with her. And and at the time I had all these volunteers working for Young and Profiting podcast and we were in a select channel. And so I had like 10 people who just wanted to work for free for me and slack. And so I was showing Heather our channel and showing her our social schedule. I was showing her Cannava and like headliner and all these different processes we had. And she was just so impressed. And she was like, I want to be your client. Like, you have a little marketing agency. You don't realize it. I want to be your first client. And so I was like, OK, like, I'll do a couple of videos for you. And like, literally, I charged her like five hundred dollars a month and I was like, this is never going to scale. Like I'm never going to make money doing this. My next client was like a 30 k a month client and then it was just like, boom, everything just like blew up.   Hala Tala: [00:47:30] And now I have 40 employees. We're making almost two million in revenue in our first year. I've got like ten huge clients. The company is growing so fast. My podcast went from getting like three thousand downloads, amounts to like one hundred and fifty thousand downloads a month. I landed the cover of Podcasts magazine. It's just like my whole life, just like all of a sudden just skyrocketed in terms of like my success, like it was slow and steady for the fact that, like, I did grow big LinkedIn following and I did put in a lot of work and I had a lot of episodes. But it's like this summer, like had all that time at home and like had this fuel of my father dying and him being such a great man and so successful and me feeling like I need to live up to that and like, do him right. Plus I think his guidance, you know, from the stars, maybe he, like, you know, hooked me up a bit. I have no idea how I landed podcast, magazine. I don't think I deserved it at the time, but maybe I did. And it's like, you know, you're always so hard on yourself.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:48:32] You definitely deserved it. No one. Right, like being on the cover and all your success. Your dad literally pass that on to you and his legacy legacy is living on through. So I just wanted to acknowledge you and like, let people know that about you because I feel like we always get this strong. Hello. At the NBA, who worked at Disney? Who worked out here, who you know, all these things that great. Great. You Hot 97, you were a singer. You were going to audition, you were going to do MTV. Like, who knows what else. You're not telling us. Right. But we don't hear this holler. We don't hear the feminine soft holler. Who what fuels her. Who is she was what she about. This is what she's about. Like, there's a lot to her. We all have layers. And I'm so glad that you came on the podcast and we're like open to it and like, made us cry. Yeah.   Hala Tala: [00:49:18] I told you a lot of juicy stuff.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:49:20] What how would you see yourself, like, impacting your family, your community and your niece? Who's watching you? She's watching the strong woman grow up like I want to know, talk, tell me, like, what are you thinking?   Hala Tala: [00:49:32] Yeah. I mean, when I said when I was growing up, there was no Arabic women who were doing anything, you know what I mean? It's like if you're an Arabic woman, you were covered. You probably were a housewife. Like I had no like nobody to look up to. And so I'm so happy that I can be this, like, Americanized Arabic woman who's, you know, professional. And I've got a great company and brand and podcast and just influencing so many people. And I feel like it's only going to get bigger and bigger, especially the trajectory that we're on and and the rate at which the company and podcast is growing and all my social channels and things like that. So I'm just excited that my niece, who's half Chinese, half Palestinian, is going to grow up having somebody who at least like sort of looks like her, somebody that you can look up to you that's not a doctor or an engineer or a lawyer. And you know that you can be successful taking your own path. And I love the fact that right now I'm literally living my dream.   Hala Tala: [00:50:35] When I was working in corporate, it was all because I was trying to fit into a box that everybody wanted me to be in. And yeah, I was doing great because I made it my own thing and used my personality traits to be good at my corporate job. But now that I'm a full time entrepreneur and I've got my focus is my podcast and content and this marketing agency, it's just amazing. Like to wake up and do what I want to do every day, like be on a podcast like this in the middle of the day, like, you know, and just have this awesome come. Association, what I want to represent my niece is like I want her to know that you can follow your dreams and anything that you believe can happen if you really work hard and if you believe in yourself and believe in your talents and believe that life is limitless. And I always say this like, you have to believe that life has no limits. As soon as I really, really went back to that thinking, it's like everything 10x for me.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:51:26] So I want to ask you I ask all my guests. Are you familiar with the beauty circle?   Hala Tala: [00:51:32] I know that you emailed me so I can pull it up.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:51:36] Yeah. So basically it's a circle that I use with my clients and it's kind of like how I I'm a little bit sneaky about the work that I do. People come to me for the image and then there's more, there's more to life like holistic. There's science, there's like a whole a whole bunch of little categories that I get. Really, it could be superficial or it could be like really deep. Like I can go into, like, quantum physics on a specific topic. Right. But I just always gauge where my clients are at. So I always ask my guests in the beauty circle, there's ten different categories. Where do you find yourself excelling in currently and where do you find yourself maybe needing a little bit of extra love?   Hala Tala: [00:52:14] Yeah, so I would say sleep is where I struggle and relationships is actually probably where I try for people who don't know me like I am all about collaboration and communities and like I'm always building a network even when I'm not trying to like I wanted to start young and profiting podcast as a one man band. Like, I just want it to be me. And I have 50 employees now. And from episode two, I had my first and I had my first volunteer. And then by episode eight, I had ten volunteers and it was all natural. I didn't pay anyone. And when I had sort of hip hop, I had probably one hundred girls in and out of that fifty at the height of it. And I was the president. And again, it was like people who just wanted to follow this movement. When I worked at HP, I was president of the Young Employee Network and I led like, you know, all these people at my office. Then I was president of my alumni association. So like always like becoming the leader, always becoming like the networker. I have like a podcast mastermind now community. You know what? I would get fans who would reach out to me and be like, I just want to work for you. And then so I just started Aslak Slack channels like, OK, come join our SELEK and you want to I'll teach you how to do an audiogram and you could just keep doing that each week. And then I would give everybody these little projects. And now the volunteers who worked for my show are now like team leaders that have like all teams under them, which is amazing. Not like these volunteers that work for free for me for about a year now are getting like half salaries and quit their jobs and work for Yapp. So and they're following their dreams because that's what they wanted to do. They wanted to work for free at one point. So they obviously had dreams.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:53:51] Why do what is a message that you would have told your younger self from the hollow that you are today like college today has a time machine. And she went back to like Tommy like right when 9/11 happened. I feel like that was a very crucial point in your life where things pivoted and you felt like ostracized, like to what would you tell that halwa?   Hala Tala: [00:54:10] So this is what I would tell anybody who's young and like still finding their way is. Think about your rejections and realize that if a gatekeeper is telling, you know, you actually need to create your own lane, create your own path. So I'll give you guys all the different examples. I worked at seven for three years. I basically was slave work for free every single day. It wasn't about convincing Angie Martinez to hire me. That's not what changed my life. What changed my life is I decided to take it into my own power and start my website. And then that made me on the same playing field as the deejay's and the same Jesus who wouldn't pay me minimum wage, put me on the flyers and I would promote their parties and make just as much money as I'm promoting parties because I decided to create my own lane. Then again, MTV. Decided not to air the show. I decided, OK, again, I'm going to focus this negative energy on creating my own path and I decided that like getting my MBA and getting a 4.0 and getting a great job was going to be that lane. Right. Then again, something happened at HP where I wasn't given a promotion to be the president of the Global Young Employee Network that I just mentioned before.   Hala Tala: [00:55:20] And that's why I started, which I started. Yeah. And then they wouldn't let me be the global president because the H.R. person didn't like me. And then she left the company a month later. But like long story, it's just the same shit. Like, I didn't get a promotion that I absolutely deserved and was absolutely the most qualified for again. I started my own thing, and that was Young and profiting podcast, and now I'm literally one of the most successful female podcasters in the world right now. And it's only because I was rejected and I decided to pivot and start my own thing that I own that nobody can tell me yes or no, that the success of my growth depends on me and what I put into it. And so, like, if you're a hard worker, if you know that you have talents like don't wait for someone to give you the permission to be that person. Like I waited three years for Angie to give me permission to just have a job. So that's what I that's the advice that I'd give is like really just pay attention to your rejections and figure out how you could do it on your own if you can.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:56:23] I love that message. Guys, if you're listening, I know I have a lot of high school students who listen in as well. Guys, you heard it from here. You can be young and profiting and you can be successful in your own lane. And Holla is proof of that. You can follow her journey. Hala, it is brag time on the podcast. I know that you're doing new things. Tell us about your you have any podcast coming up, is that correct? Yeah.   Hala Tala: [00:56:44] Yeah, yes. So I am launching a new podcast. It's called the Audio NEWSROOM. So if any of you guys are podcasters and you want to get the latest in podcasting and drop in audio news, you can check that out. It's going to be called the audio newsroom with highlights. And then, of course, I have my, you know, very popular podcast. It's called Young and Profiting. I've interviewed Matthew McConaughey, Robert Greene, Seth Godin. I put out episodes three times a week so you guys can check that out. It's young and profiting. You can find it everywhere. And then you can find me on LinkedIn at haataja and on Instagram at Yapp with Hala.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:57:17] Amazing. Amazing. Thank you for being here with us today. So appreciate it. And you can also find her on clubhouse.   Hala Tala: [00:57:23] Yeah, the clubhouse there like four hours a day. So you guys can find me there too.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:57:30] I'll put it in my show note so that you guys can follow her around because you will have access to her. You can raise your hand, get up on stage. And she will literally answer your question if she has time, because usually the stage is full. She has a lot of people in those rooms. So you don't want to mess this out. Like if you really want to contact Carla live like that is a way to do it. Follow her on there. I'm on there as well. So give us a follow. And Hala, I just want to say thank you so much for being on this podcast, for showing us a different side of holla and being vulnerable with us. I know that your message today was received and was heard and was healing for so many people on so many levels. We covered so much. So I just want to say thank you for that.   Hala Tala: [00:58:08] Thank you so much, Elizabeth. This is so much fun. You did a great job.   Elizabeth Molina: [00:58:11] Thank you, my beautiful people. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. Your support means the world to me. And if you are still listening, this means that you care. And to those amazing listeners who are still tuning in, I would so appreciate it. If you want to subscribe, if you haven't already subscribed, share this episode with any friend who you think will get some value and would learn something. This is truly an amazing show where we're going to keep on bringing in amazing guests that will rock your world if you have the time, which I know you have. And it would mean so much to me and it would allow me to continue my mission on interviewing amazing, fantastic people who have amazing stories that can impact your life. These great and review. It takes two seconds to share this episode right now on your social media. Screenshot it to me, Elizabeth. Underscore, underscore Molina and also tag the guests that I just interviewed because it just means so much. Let me know which part you liked. Let me know which part you didn't like. Let me know if anything was impactful because I want to hear it. They want to hear it. We all want to hear it. So I'm so excited for you guys to tune in next week because we have another super amazing guest. So ca

We all want good health and a long life. That's why we subscribe to health fads that offer promising benefits to our bodies. But, for this same reason, we tend to neglect foundational health principles. While these are easily accessible to us, there is still so much we can learn and get from them. By going back to the basics, we can take better care of our health, prevent diseases and boost longevity. Dr Elizabeth Yurth joins us in this episode to talk about the importance of cellular health in longevity. She gives an overview of the benefits of foundational health principles in the disease process. Dr Yurth delves deeper into fasting, autophagy and the specifics of spermidine. If you want to know more about slowing the ageing process and boosting longevity, this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries,  to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are Three Reasons Why You Should Listen to the Full Episode: Find out the importance of hormone metabolisation and cell fixing in preventing and addressing diseases. Learn the importance of going back and forth between different health routines. Discover the benefits of spermidine in improving health.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 181: Genetic Predisposition and Understanding Your Hormones Join the Human Optimization Academy for FREE at Boulder Longevity Institute! Bulletproof Radio Abundance 360 Low Protein Intake is Associated with a Major Reduction in IGF-1, Cancer, and Overall Mortality in the 65 and Younger but Not Older Population PubMed Seed Scientific Research and Performance Boulder Longevity Institute’s Facebook page       Episode Highlights [01:54] Dr Yurth’s Practise and Boulder Longevity Institute Dr Yurth has been practising orthopaedic medicine for 30 years. Fifteen years into her career, she became frustrated with the band-aid solution process in orthopaedics. She started looking at the way to stop this downhill decline. She did a fellowship in functional and regenerative medicine and incorporated it into her practice.  However, short consultation sessions for such proved to be inefficient, so they opened the Boulder Longevity Institute. They started the Human Optimization Academy to educate people about orthopaedic regenerative care. Every single disease comes down to the mitochondrial level that requires systemic treatment. [07:16] Foundational Health Principles There are a lot of cool fads on taking care of your health. However, we have to start with the basic principles. Metabolising the hormones is very important. A urine metabolite test determines the pathways where hormones are going. Simple lab studies, including CBC and CMP, can give an estimation of longevity comparable with telomere length testing and DNA methylation. Looking at albumin can predict longevity. Listen to the full episode to have an in-depth look at how albumin works! You have to train people to go back to understanding these foundational principles. [21:33] An Overview on Cellular Health Every organ system comes back to cellular dysfunction. When you have damaged mitochondria, the cells are in an altered state of energy. Senescent cells are cells that sit in the body without doing anything. Zombie cells become toxic to the cells around them. To heal any disease, we have to clean out the bad cells. They use fasting in the disease process because it causes autophagy. The biggest mistake people make is to try to have many antioxidants and NAD in the body. To clear out the bad stuff, Dr Yurth and her team use rapamycin and spermidine. Tune in to the full show to know more about these cell-restoring methods! [27:45] Fasting and Autophagy Mimetics There’s a lot of questions about fasting that even experts have no answer to. Autophagy is self-eating. You can have autophagy without being in ketosis. One of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. Taking resveratrol reduces this benefit because it has a potent antioxidant. You don’t want to be doing any protocol and patterns continuously. You have to go back and forth between different things. A balance between mTOR and NPK keeps things in a homeostatic state. [35:08] Muscle Building and Longevity Muscle building is not the key to good health and longevity. The genes that stayed in our body’s genetic evolution are those that will help us survive famines. While research has shown that low IGF people live long, they don’t have good energy. It's about repeatedly bringing IGF levels down and building it up. The cells need a push and pull for them to become healthier. [38:36] All About Spermidine Spermidine is present in every single living organism. It is prominent in our guts and in some food, with the richest source being wheat germ extract. The major research of spermidine is its benefit in cardiovascular diseases. Myeloperoxidase is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker, of which they have seen high levels in post-COVID patients.  Research has also found that spermidine can lower Lp(a). Immune system support is another place where spermidine has been studied. Spermidine, along with the peptide thymosin alpha 1, can improve lymphocytes. The early studies in spermidines are on hair growth. It affects the body's overall regeneration process. [46:29] Using Spermidine Starting from a low level, it takes a while for spermidine to make you feel better. One of the things Dr Yurth did when she started spermidine was to monitor her heart rate variability (HRV) and her Oura ring. HRV is predictive of almost every disease state. Getting a higher dose of spermidine comes at a great cost. But it's putting your health at a priority. [50:35] Why You Should Trust the Research Fixing the cells at the very base level takes time. Dr Yurth is part of the Seed Scientific Research and Performance along with 25 mastermind doctors. Through this, they weed out what works and what doesn’t. If you want to learn more about how Dr Yurth applies her practise, listen to the full episode! There are a lot of inexpensive things you can do that are effective. If it doesn’t respond, that’s the time to pull up the bigger stakes. The Boulder Longevity Institute bridges the gap between research to save lives.   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It is not that you run too much; you wear your knees. It's that there is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out, and so you have to treat it systemically, or you're not going to make any progress’. ‘The cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us. But you still got to start at the basic stuff’. ‘There's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor’. ‘I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very basic things that are inherent to life’. ‘You're never going to train doctors; you've got to train people’. ‘There's not really anybody who has one disease that does not have something else wrong; it's just impacted lots of times in different ways’. ‘We want to go back and forth between different things. And we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you’.   About Dr Elizabeth Dr Elizabeth Yurth is the co-founder of the Medical Director of the Boulder Longevity Institute.  She is a faculty member and a mastermind physician fellow in Seeds Scientific Research and Performance (SSRP). She specialises in Sports, Spine, and Regenerative Medicine and has double board-certification in Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation and Anti-Aging/Regenerative Medicine. She has a dual-Fellowship in Anti-Aging, Regenerative and Functional Medicine (FAARFM) and Anti-Aging and Regenerative Medicine (FAARM). Dr Yurth is also an active athlete and has worked with numerous sports teams at collegiate and professional levels. She does consultations with high-level athletes to optimise performance and aid recovery. If you wish to connect with Dr Yurth, you may visit her Instagram.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can include more amino acids in protein in their diet. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing The Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati. Brought to you by lisatamati.com. You’re listening to Pushing The Limits with Lisa Tamati. Fantastic to have you guys back with me again. I hope you're ready and buckled down for another great interview. I really do get some amazing people and this lady is no exception. So today I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth, who I originally heard on the Bulletproof Radio Podcast with Dave Asprey, who I love and follow. And she is a longevity expert. But Dr. Yurth is also a medical director of the Boulder Longevity Institute, which she founded in 2006. And she's double board certified in physical medicine and rehabilitation and anti-ageing and regenerative medicine. So she's a specialist in sports, spine and regenerative medicine.  She's an orthopaedic surgeon, and she's also heavily into the whole regenerative stuff. So from stem cells to different supplements to working with the latest and technologies that are available to help us slow down the ageing process and to help people regain function. So it was a really super exciting episode and I'm going to have Dr. Elizabeth on a couple of times. She's also a faculty member of the 25 mastermind physicians fellows at the Seeds Scientific Research & Performance group, which allows you to stay abreast and teach others in the emerging cellular medicine field. She's also been an athlete herself and works with numerous sports teams and both of the collegiate and professional levels. She's a wonderful person and I'm really excited to share this interview with her.  Before we head over to talk to Dr. Yurth, I just want to let you know about my new anti-ageing supplement. Now this has been designed and developed by Dr. Elena Seranova, who is a molecular biologist who is also coming on the podcast very shortly. And this is an NMN. It has nicotinamide mononucleotide. I recently read the book Lifespan by Dr. David Sinclair, who's a Harvard Medical School researcher in longevity and anti-ageing. And he's been in this field for the last 30 years. And his book was an absolute mind blowing, real look into the future of what we're going to be able to do to stop ourselves ageing to slow the ageing process down. And very importantly, increase, not only our lifespan, but our health span so that we know we stay healthy for as long as possible and don't have this horrific decline into old age that most of us expect to have.  So Dr. Sinclair in this book talks about what he takes and one of these things is an NAD precursor called nicotinamide mononucleotide. I searched all over the place for this. I couldn't get it in New Zealand when I was searching for it. And so I went and found Dr. Elena Seranova, who has developed this product and I'm now importing that into New Zealand. So if you want to find out all the science behind it, please head on head over to nmnbio.nz. That's N-M-N bio dot N - Z and all the information is on there. And you can always reach out to me lisa@lisatamati.com, if you've got questions around that.  We've also updated our running coaching system. So the way that we are offering our online run training system is now on a complete new look. We are doing fully personalised, customised training plans for runners of all levels and abilities. So we will program you for your next goal doing a video analysis of the way you're running, improve your running form through drills and exercises. Build your plan out for you. You get a one-on-one consult time with me as well. And just really help you optimise your running performance and achieve those big goals that you've got. So head on over to runninghotcoaching.com to check that out. Right now over to the show with Dr Elizabeth Yurth in Boulder, Colorado.  Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing The Limits. Today, I have Dr. Elizabeth Yurth with me from Colorado—Boulder, Colorado, and she is a longevity and anti-ageing expert. She's an orthopaedic surgeon. She's a real overachiever. And I'm just super excited to have her on because I have been diving into Dr. Yurth’s world for the last couple of weeks since I heard about her on the Bulletproof radio show. So Dr. Yurth has kindly given up an hour of her time to come and share her great knowledge. I know we're only going to skim the surface, Dr. Yurth, but it would be fantastic if we can gain some amazing insights on how the heck do we slow down this ageing process. So, Dr. Yurth, welcome to the show.  Dr. Elizabeth Yurth: Thank you so much, Lisa. I've been actually stalking you ever since you asked me to do this. And I've been fascinated with all the things you've been doing and teaching and I love it. I love that there's people like you out there who are now getting the masses involved in this and interested in this because doctors aren't doing it and so it has to be that educate the public. And people like you are paramount to that, so thank you. Lisa: Thank you very much. Yes, I think, yes, this is the beauty of podcasts and such things and will in the internet whenever we can go direct to the best minds on the planet, get the information direct to the consumer, cutting out all the middle people, so to speak, and really get this information out there. Because what I've found in my research in the last few years is that there is so much amazing, great science out there that has never seen the light of day and certainly not in local clinical practice being utilized.  So Dr. Yurth, can you tell us a little bit about the Boulder Longevity centre before we get underway and what your work there is all about and your background? Dr. Elizabeth: Sure, I'd love to. So basically, I've been in the orthopaedic medicine world for 30 years. And about 15 years ago, I actually became very frustrated because I saw people coming in and they would get injured or just have arthritis, chronic pain and we would sort of patch them a little bit and nothing ever really got better, and then something else will get hurt. And it really was just this downhill process from square one. I mean, I tore my first anterior cruciate ligament in my knee at the age of 18 and subsequently, had torn two or three more times between the two knees, had four more surgeries and then it was just a downhill decline.  And so, we started looking at is there a way to stop this, because you don't learn it in medical school, and you don't learn in orthopaedic medicine. And when I started looking into—and this was a very early time in the whole functional medicine space, it was really early, there wasn't a lot. And so I went back to American Academy of Anti-ageing Medicine, which is really the only thing available at that time, and did a fellowship in functional medicine and regenerative medicine and tried to incorporate that into my orthopaedic practice as much as I could. But it's difficult in 10 to 15 minute appointments to do that. So we realized that you can't really do good medicine in that model, and so we opened Boulder Longevity Institute about 15 years ago now. And I really sidelined did both practices, because what I found is that people are still looking for that insurance-based practice, and I try as much as I could to educate them there. And then some of them would transition over to here and over time for 15 years, Boulder Longevity Institute has really grown and developed, and subsequently is now my full-time practice. But we do a lot of orthopaedic regenerative care here, the targeting, taking care of people and getting them healthier in that realm.  But much like you, our focus is very much now on education and we have a whole, what we call, Human Optimization Academy. We're trying to bring the just like you said, the research to the people. Peter Diamandis, who runs Abundance360—is very well known, you probably know him — he has a great quote where he says, ‘Researchers don't do medicine. And doctors don't do the research and learn the research and use on their patients’. And so, there's a lag of about 15 to 20 years since when something is available to us that will make us better and ever getting to us.  Lisa: Exactly. I had the exact same conversation with another doctor, Dr. Berry Fowler and we were talking about intravenous vitamin C and I said, ‘Why is it taking so long and critical care to get this in?’ And he said ‘because it's like turning a supertanker’. He says, ‘It's just so slow’. And so people are not getting the benefit of the latest research. And for an orthopaedic surgeon to go down this anti-ageing functional medicine route is a very rare thing, or at least in my country, it would be a very rare thing. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, orthopaedics does not cross over this line at all. And ultimately, it's one of the reasons I had to leave my other practices because my partners were very much like, ‘Stop talking about medicine. That's not what we do here’. And you have to—even arthritis is a disease. It is not that you ran too much and wore out your knees. There is a disease process going on in your body that is now making your joints wear out. And so you have to systemically treat it or you're not going to make any progress. Lisa: Oh man, people so need to hear that because it is an inflammatory process that's coming like out of the immune system. And I've heard you say a couple of times on some of your lectures, I listened to one on mitochondria. And mitochondria is sort of the basis of where a lot of other things are coming from, isn't it, and diseases are probably...  Dr. Elizabeth: Everything. Honestly, I think what we're going to find is that every single diseases—every single disease is going to come down to mitochondrial level. In fact, I was just reading a new research article on autism and mitochondrial dysfunction, that they're actually linking this mitochondrial dysregulation in even autism. I don't think that we're going to find any disease that is not linked first to mitochondrial dysfunction, which is fascinating because mitochondria are fascinating. So it's really my passion is, is how do we repair mitochondria. But that you start looking at—you can pretty much do that. You guys go out there and Google mitochondria and any disease you can think of and you will find research to support it.  So, in arthritis it is exactly the same, right, Lisa? You're right. It's damage to now the mitochondria and the chondrocytes. And that damage—you get these damage from chondrocytes, which then are actually spewing these reactive species that are damaging the next cell and the next cell. And simply sticking steroids in that joint is not going to help it.  Lisa: Wow. So we want to talk a little bit today, like we talked about our foundational health—a few foundational health principles so that we can then get on to some of the cooler, more sexier stuff that I want to talk about, like things like spermidine and peptides and NAD precursors, perhaps, and all of these sort of really cool things.  But what are you seeing in your practice—like you're seeing a lot of people who are becoming aware of their health, they're looking at everybody knows the basics about nutrition now, I think. Like, fried foods are not good for us, sugar is not good for us—the basics. But what are you seeing as missing in that foundational side of things? Dr. Elizabeth: So I think this is the biggest thing I've seen over the past—probably a year. And as I've done more podcasts, and I've listened to more podcasts, and now you have all the bio hacker groups and the peptide group, so everybody is doing all this cool thing. So now, like, ‘Oh, I got to go do my hyperbaric and I have to go take my growth hormone, peptides’. And they come in to me, and I was just telling you about a patient I saw who literally had a worksheet, spreadsheet of all the things he was doing. And I said, ‘Well, are you taking testosterone’? And he was 56 years old, I said, ‘Are you taking testosterone’? ‘No’. And I said, ‘Have you ever looked at your nutrient pound’? ‘Nope’.  So, what I really want to encourage your listeners is the cool stuff is cool, and there's a place for it in all of us, but you still got to start at the basic stuff. So, when we look at people we have to go through and we have to fix—so we look at all the hormones and you just did a great podcast looking at hormone metabolism, right? Because people are so scared of hormones and they’re terrified that these hormones are going to cause cancer. And we know that's not true. It's how you metabolize the hormones that's important, which has genetic and environmental. You just gave an incredible podcast with your guests the other day on that. Lisa: With Dr. Mansoor; he's wonderful.  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. And your epigenetic background, that the key is how these hormones are processed. So when we look at hormones, we actually do a urine metabolite test. So we know exactly where those hormones are going, and are they going down bad pathways or good pathways? So you've got to repair all that, first, fix all the pathways, which you do, and you know your CYP genes and all that kind of stuff. How do you alter it? There's nutrients that you can use to do that. There's tons of things, exercise. So, fix all the hormones first. Men and women all need hormones. I think testosterone’s neglected in women all the time, right? They're on estrogen, progesterone, and I'm like, ‘You’re not on testosterone’? Like, ‘No’. And so even within the realm of our type of medicine, we are neglected in that realm. Right?  Testosterone is huge for women. If you want muscle, you need testosterone.  Lisa: I basically got good muscles. Dr. Elizabeth:  Right, that’s right. So, you've got your testosterone on board, and it has to be not alternating into estrogen—all that has to be involved. So you've got to fix that. And then, there's so much information in these really simple lab studies that you've gotten from your primary care doctor. So, a complete blood count, a CBC, a CMP. Everybody has them, and everybody's doctor looks at and goes, ‘Yep, looks good. There's no reds in there, everything's perfect’. You can actually take that—and Dr. Levine, anti-ageing expert, did a whole algorithm that just taking some of these blood work give you very comparable estimation of longevity as doing telomere length or doing methylation.  So, we have all these expensive tests to look at DNA methylation and telomere to look at age, and you could come up very close to the same number, simply by feeding some of these parameters, like your albumin level and your metabolic calculator that would... Lisa: Wow! Is that available publicly, that calculator?  Dr. Elizabeth: I'm not sure how publicly available it is. We actually have access, and we utilize that in our patients to follow it. But it's great, because these other tests are expensive. And if I want to put you on a protocol and then see if I'm making headway, how do I follow that? So, I don't think people know that, for instance, what is one of the most valuable numbers on your CBC? It’s actually the size of your cells, the mean cell volume, and the rest of distribution?  Lisa: Yes, I'm just studying cell distribution. Dr. Elizabeth: Isn’t that fascinating?  Lisa: We are completely unaware.  Dr. Elizabeth: And have any of your listeners have had the doctor ever mentioned what their MCV is? Or their RDW is? And those are very, very important. So is albumin. So albumin alone, which is not just dietary. There's a great study that you could predict who is going to get out of the hospital alive based on their albumin levels. And so simply looking at things like that. So if your albumin levels are low, maybe it's because you're not eating enough protein, but that doesn't—it tends to be something else wrong. Lisa: Liver not doing something.  Dr. Elizabeth: Definitely. And sometimes that's the need for more beta carotene. Sometimes it's need for more copper. Copper has to help carry the albumin and copper deficiencies are super low. Nobody measures copper. So, you can look at a low albumin and try putting somebody on a little copper, it’s quite GHK copper as a peptide, I might get to the fancy stuff. Using copper as a peptide is an amazing peptide. It's very longevity promoting because copper is super vital to our health. And so sometimes just putting people on two milligrams of copper can markedly improve their health.  Lisa: But isn’t there copper’s also a toxicity problem? Isn't that quite a lot of people have high copper levels?  Dr. Elizabeth: Less than you think. So it's gotten a lot of market to that, right? It has to be that zinc copper balance has to be imbalanced. So that's one of the things. But actually, copper toxicity is pretty easy to tell. When people become copper—toxic on copper, you'll see the lunula, the fingernails start turning, a little discoloured, a little bluish in colour. So it is a little harder to get toxic in copper than people think. I use it a lot for wound healing in my patients. So, it really helps with wound healing. It's why it's in all skin, expensive skin creams, copper peptides are because it's so good for collagen function, it’s so good for wounds. So I think we may scare people a little bit from copper. But it actually has some value. And a lot of times, it's not so much that you have too much coppers, you don't have enough zinc and that balance is not there. It has to be balanced between zinc and copper. So those are simple things that you can actually look at and measure. And you can—I don't have to do it on everybody.  So I see somebody who has a low albumin, I might say, ‘Hmm, we better look at your zinc and copper level’. So we take the CBC and CMP. And how about simply creatinine? If your creatinine is above point eight, that is not good for longevity. So, why is that?  Well, maybe you're eating way too much protein, right? We will erase any high protein diets, super high protein, the kidneys can only process so much protein and your kidneys depend on your genetics, maybe less. So that's all things I think you have to go back when you talk about foundational health.  I spend literally 30 minutes going through a CBC and a CMP with people. They’re so valuable, and those are $12 tests. Not these big, fancy, expensive tests, they don't cost $500 or $600. And by the end of that test, I can give them, this is what your biological age, your pheno age, this is where we really need to target and start with them some very basic, inexpensive things.  Lisa: Crikey dex, that's amazing. I didn't know we can get to that. I mean, I've only been studying blood chemistry for a couple of months and like it's a big topic isn't it?  Dr. Elizabeth: It has some really cool value to it that you can actually look at. Some ranges that—we have all gone from the normal range, right? All your listeners now know this the normal range, there's an optimal stage. Within that optimal range, right, there's one number above that you'll see you start to see a change in ageing. The curve on your projected longevity, you look at  albumin levels, and you look at the curve on your projected longevity. If your albumin levels are less than 4.6, your projected longevity is five to 10 years less than somebody who's above 4.6. Lisa: Crikey. No one's ever told me any of these things and I’ve been studying blood chemistry and from functional doctors, like that's all news to me. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I think that that's the problem. I think even the functional medicine space sort of went beyond the step of looking at some very, very basic things that are inherent to life. And now start focusing, ‘Oh, let's look at hormones, right? Let's look at the gut microbiome’. All super important, but all going to be messed up, if the other stuffs messed up, right?  Lisa: You’re basically not in the right place. Dr. Elizabeth: And so I—that's where I get a little frustrated. So now we're targeting back to that whole cellular health, it all comes back down to the cell, fix the cell. As the cell gets fixed, the mitochondria get fixed, everything else falls. So once you've refined that now, we can look at gut microbiomes, if the person is not doing well. We can look at things like micronutrient profiles, and I love micronutrient profiles because I don't know if how much vitamin D you need or how much vitamin B12 you need. Micronutrient profiles, particularly one that gives me intracellular and serum levels, as you know genetics plays a huge role in your micronutrients.  Lisa: Yes, vitamin D, for example. I mean, I know I have bad vitamin D genetics, so I need to supplement with vitamin D. Right?  Dr. Elizabeth: And B12, you've got the SUV people of B12. I’m one of those who need a lot of B12. It's all very genetically based. So, you can predict it from genetics. But then are you accomplishing your goal? I think you need some… Lisa: Measurements. And this is where the combination of what I'm—like the combination of doing your genes and finding out your innate pathways and what they do, and then seeing actually where you are, getting that snapshot of ‘Okay, we are actually in their hormones and stuff’. And it's quite complicated.  And this is the problem is that you go to your local doctor, at least here where I live, and none of this is offered. And none of this is—and so you left as a lay person trying to work this stuff out yourself. And that's quite frustrating and quite difficult. Dr. Elizabeth: It's hard. And it gets caught up again, in the glitz and glamour. I'm going to be attracted to my podcast that's talking all about the coolest, newest thing, it's just our nature is to want the coolest, newest thing. And we just talked about that. We want that cool new thing, because that is on the forefront. And we use those cool new things to help fix the basics. But you still got to know where you are in that standing, and that's really now become, I think, one of my frustrations as I'm seeing more and more people walk in my door, who are doing everything they’re thinking of.  And so we are trying to teach people this. We're trying to teach people how do you interpret your own blood work? How do you look at every one of those parameters and say, ‘What should my albumin be? Okay, it's too high, it's too low. What can I do to fix that’? Whereas, if my MCV is, mean cell volume. If your mean cell volume, and you look at your own. As we age, I look at my 19 year old son, he has a mean cell volume of 83. If I look at your average person who's in their 50s, and 60s, who's our age, it's going to be 97, 98. So the higher that number goes, the more your stem cells are wearing out, the more your bone marrow is wearing out, the more that whatever you're doing isn't working.  So we can use those things, like you can use your infrared, you can do all those great things. Me, I infrared, I cryo, I do all that. But I will tell you some very basic stuff that sometimes has been the things that made changes in those numbers. I want people to know, that's them that, honestly, is why we decided you're never going to train doctors, you've got to train people. But we've also got to get people back to understanding that you've got to sort of learn these things and kind of a fashion of can learn this, learn this, learn this. When I understand everything about how hyperbaric oxygen improves my cell function, have I really learned how to just look at the cell at that molecular level from looking at basic labs? And that's what we're trying to teach people. Start there, and then we give them tools.  Lisa: Fantastic. So people can join Dr Yurth, and get us some of this education. And I've started delving into it and I can't wait to see what else comes along because I mean, this sort of stuff, I'm like already going, ‘Oh my god, I didn't know that’. So I've learned something today already as well. And I'm very definitely guilty of going after the shiny object and love it. Dr. Elizabeth: It’s human nature. That’s human nature.  Lisa: Yes. And so people can go to the Boulder Longevity website and I'll put the links in the show notes and there is a Human Optimization Academy, join up for that and it's actually free at the moment, isn't it, Dr. Yurth?  Dr. Elizabeth: Right. Right now, it's free. And we'll start putting together—so right before COVID hit, we actually had an in-person course. We're actually going to teach how to look at your own CBC and CMP. And COVID hit, and it all sort of fell apart. But we'll be putting that back into sort of a virtual course with people so you can actually get your bloods run. We will walk you through. So, here's how to interpret every one of those little numbers you see on there because I will tell you, every one of those little numbers is important. Everybody just looks at it as a piece of paper, and there's no red marks highs or lows, they sort of discard it. And we'll show you how to look at that and give huge value.  And just from those simple things, you can now say, ‘Maybe I better get a micronutrient panel’, or at least test a copper or zinc or a B12, or D based on some of those numbers that you see being off. And then take the tool, now fix the basics. ‘That's not working? Okay, now, maybe I need to add this, this, this’. Lisa: And then now we can get fancy. Well sign me up for that course because I need it. And I'm already up on some of it, but I wasn't that familiar with some of the things you've just said. So like, that's just like, well. Okay, so we're looking at foundational stuff. Now let's go and look at cellular health, per se, because it all comes down to the cell. The more I look into things, the more everything seems to be about mitochondria in the cell, and what they're doing. and when we're made up of what? 10 trillion cells or something ridiculous. So cellular health, can you give us a bit of a view—it's a big topic, isn't it? But where should we start? Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, well, I'm going to start with first kind of explaining what that means. So, functional medicines, we went from a disease-focused medicine, right? And then we all got very savvy—well, not the doctors—but the rest of the world who got very savvy said, ‘Oh, this isn't working. It's making somebody money, but it's not working to make anybody happy’.  So we went to a functional medicine part. Let's look at organ systems and let's start. So then we went to the organ system, let's look at the adrenal glands and let's look at the liver in this and let's now fix the organ system that's dysfunctional. we got to fix the thyroid, we got to fix the endocrine organs and we have to do all that.  And then now, and this is really super recent, we're realizing that every organ system comes back to a cellular dysfunction. And there's not really anybody who has one disease that is not have something else wrong. It's just impacted lots of times in different ways. So if I have osteoarthritis. So if you have osteoarthritis, your risk of dementia is about fivefold higher. So why is that? Right? Osteoarthritis... because I ran 800 miles a day. But that's not the case, I have patients who run 800 miles and they're fine.  Lisa: Oh, I'm fine. Like, my joints are fine, and I haven't got any osteo. Dr. Elizabeth: And then you have people who are like, ‘Oh, yes, I just wore myself out because I ran too much’. No, not the case. So, there's something wrong. So now we have to go back and look at what is wrong in the cell. So if you think about what power, what is the cell all about? It is the mitochondria. Mitochondria, what gives the cell energy, right? And so as we start getting damaged to our mitochondria with time and life and environment and genetics, and we start getting damage at the mitochondrial level. So, now have these damaged mitochondria. And now we start getting these cells that are in this altered state of energy. And that's when you start getting that senescent cell—cells that are basically sitting there… Dr. Elizabeth: They’re zombie cells.  Lisa: And there's zombie cells, right? And they're producing these reactive oxygen species. And that's why they're called zombie cells, it's because the things that are being spewed out, are now toxic to the cells around them and then toxic to those cells. And so, it truly is like a zombie takeover.  So that's where we look at when we're going back to a cell level. First thing we have to do to try and heal any disease is clean out the bad cells. Clean up the zombie cells. That’s why fasting has been utilized for years in every disease process because we know that fasting causes autophagy, causes bad cells to go away, and now we can rebuild. I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is that if I start throwing a lot of rebuilding things into my network, tons of NAD and I'm trying to always be in this state where I've got a lot of antioxidants going. I'm throwing a lot of NAD and well then, I'm actually contributing to that cell senescent state. I've got to get rid of that first.  Clear out the bad stuff and do that periodically. And we use things like rapamycin, you can use it for fasting. And most recently what my go-to has been this spermidine for that talk. And I fell in love with spermidine a few years ago, actually and couldn't get it here in the US. That basically—it came onto my radar because there it worked at a very sort of primal level. Every single organism has spermidine. Anything that every organism has, is vital to life. And so we know that—and then all these studies that show that well, if you have higher level spermidine, you live longer, so. And it was only available in—I don't know if you guys could get it—but it was available in Europe.  Lisa: I’ve just got my first order on its way. But I had to get it via Colorado, and I've actually being in contact with the guys in Austria. So, working on that one, I'm getting it down here. Dr. Elizabeth: We couldn't get it. And like six months or so ago, we finally could get it here in the US. And it works as an autophagy inducing agent. It basically tells the cells to get rid of the bad stuff, it helps to restore the good parts of the cell. And really, at a baseline level is probably the one supplement that I know of, and probably the only one I know of, that is going to be actually balancing cell health continuously. Lisa: So it's homeostasis as opposed to... Dr. Elizabeth:  The homeostatic state. Right.  Lisa: So like, just to backtrack a little bit there because we covered a heck of a lot of ground in a very short time there. So, fasting, I mean, we've heard, like fasting and intermittent fasting and longer fasts are very, very good for us and all that. While a lot of us don't want to do it because it's not very nice... I do intermittent fasting, but I must admit, I don't enjoy it. And I certainly—when it comes to doing longer fasts, I struggle. So I'm always like, fasting mimetics, how can I get some fasting mimetics going? Because like you say, if I'm going to put in the antioxidants, the precursors, which I do as well, which are very important piece of the puzzle, but just that is not enough. So, this is like we've looked at in the past, like resveratrol as being a possible fasting mimetic. And wouldn't it be great if spermidine turns out, and it looks like it is going to be another fasting mimetic that's actually even more powerful. So, I know you do a lot of fasting, you're very disciplined, unlike myself. Dr. Elizabeth: No extra weight, I still have extra weight so fasting’s easier for me. Lisa: But yes, it is a difficult thing to do. So intermittent fasting is probably for me is the easiest go-to because I can sort of coke for it.  Dr. Elizabeth: Time-restricted eating. Really, yes, more doing a 16, 8, kind of thing as opposed to the longer fast. And there's a lot of questions, we don't really know, do you need to long fast? We actually don't know the answer to that. There's a lot of people who say, ‘Oh, you've got to be hit the 48 to 72 hours to really get the full autophagy phase’. There's not a lot of data that actually really says that. You may still be able to get the same benefits from doing time-restricted eating. So we don't know the answer to all these questions.  Lisa: But so what we're targeting with fasting is autophagy. So, autophagy, just to define what autophagy is, is getting rid of the bad stuff, basically. The bad proteins that are damaged, the mitochondria, or mitophagy, in that case. And recycling the parts that we can reuse and getting rid of it. Does the body sort of lock at it when you're fasting, and you haven't got anything coming and going up, ‘I've got no fuel supply, I better start recycling the old stuff’.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, exactly. Yes, autophagy is self-eating. And so basically, the cell basically says, ‘Oh, I need to preserve. I'm going to take the good things from the cell, get rid of the bad stuff I don't need. It’s a waste of energy. Getting rid of cells that shouldn't be utilizing my energy’. So and then really by going into a ketotic state, and that's, not utilizing glucose has a huge benefit. Lisa: So ketosis and autophagy, are they hand in hand? Are they part of the same thing? Can you have autophagy without being in ketosis, or are they very much married together? Dr. Elizabeth: No, you can actually have autophagy without being in ketosis. And you can basically be in ketosis and not necessarily have autophagy. So that all kind of depends on the cell, the state the cells in.  One of the problems with resveratrol as a fasting mimetic, you mentioned taking resveratrol continuously, is there's also very potent antioxidant. Remember, one of the benefits of fasting is oxidative stress. So, I want oxidative stress while I'm fasting. If I'm taking resveratrol, for instance, while I'm fasting, I'm actually not getting as much of the oxidative stress. So, it's working a little different level. That's why I like spermidine a little bit better as it doesn't have that same effect to sort of negate the oxidative stress. Lisa: And for how long for people to get their heads around? I know because I mean, I've been struggling with this one, like the antioxidants sort of paradox. Yes, sorry, you carry on. Dr. Elizabeth: I think the key to remember is you really don't want to be doing any protocol continuously. I was just talking to a guy and he said, ‘What do you do to look like you do’? because I have more muscle. And I said, ‘I don't do anything continuously’. There's nothing—workout, nothing continuously. My food, my eating is never continuously, my supplements are never continuously.  And I think it's a problem as people get in these patterns where they are taking all these antioxidants continuously. I always am going through build-up, breakdown phases. So there's only a few supplements that I will continuously take. One is, I will take spermidine at a baseline level. But if I'm doing a sort of a fast autophagy phase, where I really want to do a big tie up off of everything, I want a very high dose spermidine, much higher dose than just until that time of day.  Lisa: Because spermidine works at a level lower if you like, at the base level. So, when we're talking about antioxidants, what the job is in the cell is to basically scavenge and donate electrons to where you got oxidative stress, and reactive oxygen species and to get rid of it there. But we're actually going a step back and actually stopping the reactive oxygen species, or oxidative stress from happening in the first place. And this is why spermidine at that base level, seems to be one that you can take continuously. And it even builds up to some degree, perhaps in your body or upregulates some of the bacteria in the microbiome. And whereas, antioxidants, we want to sort of cycle in and out. It's like exercise, isn't it? Like when I go to the gym, I'm not going to have my vitamin C right next to when I go to the gym, because that's going to mitigate that cascade of effects that vitamin C has. Yes.  So I'm doing things. I'm taking my vitamin C away from that. And so there's, none of this is good or bad, it's cycling. And I think the more I've looked into things, the body likes this push and pull. It likes a medic stress. It likes to be cold. It likes to be hot. It likes to be pleasant, but it likes to be fasted. It likes to have a good amount of food. It's this whole—because that's how we've evolved, isn't it? Dr. Elizabeth: That's the way life for it was, yes. Lisa: We didn't come from this neutral environment where the temperature is the same all the time. And we're sitting on comfy couches, and we're not exercising and we're not cold, or we're not hungry, and we're not hot, and we're not not anything, and we've got an abundance of everything. And therefore, if we look at our evolution, and how we've come about that sort of a push and pull seems to go right through nature. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, you're exactly right. Remember, there's that balance between mTOR and AMPK, right? We know that AMPK is breakdown. And we know that when we block mTOR, our lives are longer, but we also don't build as much muscle and we don't have as much energy. And what you do is go through phases, build up mTOR, build up AMPK, build up and do that balance, so that you keep things in a very homeostatic state. And you said exactly right, there's great benefits to being hot. You have all the, how great being cold is and doing our cold showers in our cryo and everything. But there's a study that came out recently, I think I quote it in some podcasts I was in recently, that showed that in hotter environments, bone density is much better. So why is it that?  Lisa: Yes, I heard that.  Dr. Elizabeth: There's some effects from the warmth on our body too. So you're exactly right. We want to go back and forth between different things and we want to make sure we're cycling. Any of you who are staying on the same patterns all the time, that's not serving you. Your body needs to have this back-and-forth balance. And you're right, that is—whenever you give the quote of well, ‘That's how cavemen lived’. You're like, ‘Well, but cavemen died in 18 whatever’.  So how our evolution occurred, right? It's still what, what got us to survive. And it really is how our world is designed, and it's how our cells are designed. So I think that the use of thinking about your body as ‘Okay, I'm going to go through a fast, autophagy phase, and then I'm going to build up and I’m going to build my muscles’. You can build muscle while you're in a fasted state, but it's not nearly as easy as it is when you're eating a lot of food.  Lisa: Yes. And but we're wanting to keep everything in balance so that it doesn't get just mTOR because, if we're in a state of like, activated mTOR all the time, then we are growing, but we were possibly growing things like cancer cells and things like. Dr. Elizabeth: And we know that mTOR activation all the time is closer to death. Lisa: But isn’t it weird, like there's nothing simple about...  Dr. Elizabeth: It actually, honestly, it makes very little sense to me, right? The things—the mTOR, everything's muscle building. Super high IGF all the time and it is muscle building. You would think it would be kind of pro longevity, right, and healthy, and yet, it's not. And the only way I can really—in my mind, reason that out is that if the zombie apocalypse hits, you're better designed to be able to survive without any food and without any—nothing just huddled away in your little house, right? And so maybe the evolution of our body that's for longevity, the genes have kind of stayed there are the ones that really make us survive through famine, right? And yet, that's probably not where we all want to be. We don't want to be huddled in the back of our houses not moving.  And so yes, if you look at Valter Longo and his research on—really low IGF people live longer, they don't have cancer. Yes but they actually don't necessarily feel great. And they don't necessarily see low IGF people all the time, who are fatigued, who don't have good energy, who can't build muscle, who don't exercise. So I think that the thing here is build your IGF, bring it back down, build it up, bring it back down. So, I think that that's where we really need to look at things, as this kind of waxing and waning of everything we do.  In our cellular medicine fellowship program, it's one of the things we're really, really focused on is that's what the cell needs, is a push and pull to it, to really help it become a healthier entity. And I think if we start doing that, we're going to start seeing that that's really where we're going to see that big focus to health and longevity occurrence. It's not going to be ‘Everybody eat this diet’.  Lisa: No, no. And this is like, even as a coach of athletes and stuff. And I did this in my athletic career where I didn't know all this stuff. I ran long, because that's what I do, it was ultra-marathon running. And that's all I did. I didn't train at the gym. I didn't do—and I was not fit. And I was not healthy. I could run long because I've trained that specific thing, but I wasn't healthy. I was overweight. I was hormonally imbalanced. I ended up with hypothyroid. I couldn't have sat on the couch and ate chips all day and probably come out better than I did. Because I'd been doing one thing and one thing that was actually not suited to my genetics either, ideally. And so understanding all of this is not as simple as well, ‘I'll go and do the same old thing, same old and then we'll be good’. I want to sort of flip now and go a bit of a deep dive into spermidine because I think spermidine is the one thing that, this is going right down to the base level of before. Because we want anti-ageing. I mean. We compared ages before this podcast and I mean, I won't share your age, but I was shocked. You look amazing. And I'm like, ‘I want a piece of that’. What is it that you're doing? So spermidine is a part of your—that is one of the things you do take on a pretty much a daily basis. Can you dive into the research? There’s 10 years behind the spermidine and it's only just becoming available. Guys in New Zealand, it's not here yet. I'm working on it. Give me time, I'm getting, I'm working on it. Dr. Elizabeth: So, what we know is as we talked about spermidine is on every single living organism. So, we know it's critical to life, it's what's called a polyamine. It's what a three poly means is spermidine, spermine, and putrescine. And they all have some value. Putrescine is what's in rotting meat. You're probably not going to go eat rotting meat. But there's actually some value to putrescine in our bodies, too. Spermidine appears to have—spermidine is converted typically this into spermidine. Spermidine is innately in our gut. So, it's made by our gut bacteria but it's also in some foods. It's in some a lot of fermented foods, in wheat germ extracts. It's in some peas and mushrooms. It's in some algae.  Probably the richest source of it is a specific type of wheat germ extract. It's apparently very difficult to extract, it's only a certain type of wheat germ that has it's difficult to extract a pure form of it. And so, there is companies that make it from algae as well. But you have to take—actually before we could get spermidine from spermidine life which is wheat germ extract, we actually bought an algae extract one. You really had to take 40 of these little green pills. I mean your hands are green, your teeth are green all the time. 40 of them, I mean, I did that because I wanted it but once we got spermidine.  I get the question all the time about well, it's wheat germ extract. Interestingly, I've celiac patients on spermidine and even though it's not advised for celiac patients, it probably actually is perfectly safe because it's actually working on one of the pathways, that's what makes the gluten exactly unsafe those patients. So, it's probably even if you're—I'm very gluten sensitive, I don't do gluten. I have no problems in spermidine. So, it tends to be pretty well-tolerated in those people. Lisa: Yes, but I've got a brother who’s recently examined and she said, ‘Yes, I can’. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, I have two celiac patients on who've done fine. And again, the bio says not to take it if you're celiac, but I think cautiously, there is some research that supports it actually may be useful in treating some of the celiac patients.  So basically, the study is now—there's so many studies on it. In terms of preventing almost every disease in the book, and that's where you and I come back to that whole, is mitochondria the answer to everything? Because we've seen spermidine—you can Google spermidine. I do this. I mean, Google ‘spermidine and Alzheimer’, Google ‘spermidine and cancer’, there's not a disease that we don't have a study on where you can find some connection to higher or lower levels of spermidine being better.  Some of the major research has been on cardiovascular and its benefits and cardiovascular disease. It's one of the things we've been using when we see high inflammatory cardiovascular markers in our patients. We measure what's called myeloperoxidase, which is an inflammatory cardiovascular marker. It's interesting, we've seen it very high in our lot of our post-COVID patients. So patients who have had COVID recovered, coming for labs, we're seeing very high levels of myeloperoxidase. So, we think that's probably from some of the vascular damage that COVID seems to create in some people with certain genetics. And that’s very hard to bring it back down, and spermidine has been one of the things that's been really helpful there for us.  So, it's also any of your patients who have a high Lp little a. Yes, so by Lipoprotein little a, you'll know is basically genetic. Lisa: Yes. And there's not much you can do.  Dr. Elizabeth: Nothing much you can do about it. You use high-dose niacin, but it's hard to take, the liver toxic. Spermidine actually has some research to support it in lowering Lp little a and we've seen that in our practice, it's one of the things we lower Lp little a. So the other place that's been really studied is an immune system support. So we've seen improvements in lymphocytes. So, one of the other labs that you want—when you're looking at that CBC is looking at your neutrophil-lymphocyte ratio.  Lisa: Yes, I've just like I've got a problem with my brother at the moment, lymphocytes, neutrophils down. No, sorry, your neutrophils down, lymphocytes, high.  Dr. Elizabeth: That's a little uncommon, that might indicate some kind of viral illness going on. Typically, what happens as we age is, we start to see the lymphocyte number go down and the neutrophil number go up. So that ratio, which should be around 1.3:1, 1:1, 1.3:1, starts climbing. If you look at the typical person our age is, 3:1. And so, it's hard to get—how do you get back lymphocyte function? You don't have thymus glands anymore. And so the two things that we've been able to utilize to really restore lymphocyte function in our patients who have ageing immune systems is spermidine. And then the other one is a peptide, thymosin alpha-1, which is a thymic peptide.  What our thymus gland does is it takes those two lymphocytes, it tells them what to do and, and once—your best immune function is at puberty. After that, your thymus gland starts getting smaller. And by the time you're 60, you don't really have much thymus gland. And so your immune system starts going a little haywire, it doesn't know what to do. And so what we can do, because really crazy people are trying to transplant thymus glands, or eat sweetbreads, which doesn't work. They do it in France, maybe they taste good, but I don't think it replaces your thyroid function. But you can get thymic peptides. So, two of the things that the thymus gland really makes is thymosin alpha-1 and thymosin beta-4. And thymosin alpha-1 is a very immune modulating peptide, and it really helps to restore normal immune function. So, the combination of spermidine and thymosin alpha-1 and your people who have immune dysregulation, autoimmune diseases. You could start normalising the immune function. So instead of attacking self they start attacking viruses.  Lisa: Wow. And autoimmune is just like, a huge, huge problem. I mean, it's just epidemic levels now.  Dr. Elizabeth: It is epidemic.  Lisa: Sorry, so this would help with that. Oh, my God. Okay. So that's another reason to take spermidine and the peptides. I mean, peptides are harder to get hold of like… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s still harder to get hold of. Your people who are in Europe, thymosin alpha-1 is actually a drug. It's called Zadaxin. We can't get it here as a drug. We've made us a peptide but it actually is a drug. They use it in their chemotherapy patients in Europe and Asia. And so oddly, it's available as approved drug. Probably pricey. Lisa: Most of these drugs are for some unknown reason. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes. Spermidine—someone's early studies and where it actually sort of panned out, as people went after it initially was actually hair growth. And again, if you think about, the tissues, we're talking about, like cardiac here, those are all fast-growing tissues. And that's where spermidine sort of had its nice effect and sort of that whole regeneration process. And so even in guys with thinning hair, spermidine has huge benefits. Just taking on like a milligram a day dose will start the thickening of hair. I noticed when I first started, my nails grew really fast means, I mean, super fast. And so even in those basic things, like hair growth, nail growth, spermidine has some really marked effects. Lisa: Fantastic. We’ve got to get it here.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, it is amazing. I mean, honestly, I feel a little—whenever I see my patients now and I see something wrong. I'm like, ‘Well, spermidine, oh’. Lisa: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is all to confirm because it's such a wide panacea, and it works at base level of the ageing and pathologies and things… Dr. Elizabeth: It’s too good to be true.  Lisa: It's too good to be true, but actually now, it makes sense. And so, it’s fantastic if we find something that is a panacea for many, many things. And also, I've got my first shipment coming from the States, and I'm super excited. Dr. Elizabeth: One of the hard things in what we do, right, is it takes you awhile to feel better, and just starting from a low level, right. Or if you're like us, and you're at a high level, then making this little extra. And so, what I tell people to monitor, because one things I noticed was, when I started spermidine was a pretty—I don't sleep enough, I study too much. But I use my Oura ring, and I monitor my HRV. And so, I know a lot of your listeners have the Oura ring and HRV is very fluctuating. And so it's one of those things, it's very easy to see a change.  So, if I do something like start taking spermidine, I can say no, and you can look at the trend on your Oura ring. And you can say, you can take—started spermidine here, and I had about a 15 point jump in my HRV, which I won't say what it is because it’s just from starting spermidine. So I know it's doing something at a very basic level because HRV is predictive of almost every disease state; so low HRV, you know you have a higher incidence of all Alzheimer, we know we have a higher incidence of cancer. So I know if I'm affecting my HRV, I'm positively affecting my health.  So something really simple that you can do to say, okay, I started this here, and then look back in two weeks, go to your little trends thing and see ‘Wow, look, my trend is going this direction’. Lisa: Wow, I can't wait to see that because yes, I mean, I haven't been able to move the needle on my HRV really. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, me neither. And mine's not good.  Lisa: Yes, and mine isn't great either.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, the downside of sometimes what we do is we're reading all the time and staying all the time and trying to do too much and… Lisa: Brain doesn’t turn off.  Dr. Elizabeth: And that's not so good.  Lisa: Adrenaline driven. Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, so it is really, honestly one of the first things I did that really made a dramatic change. Lisa: Wow, I will let you know how I go.  Dr. Elizabeth: Yes, let me know. Lisa: When mine comes, whether my HRV is now turning up.  Dr. Elizabeth: I will say sometimes you need a higher dose which gets pricey. Lisa: And this is the problem with everything, it's the same with the deep precursors and all the stuff that's fantastic, it does cost. But you know what? I don't have money to burn but I would rather go without a fancy car, go without fancy clothes, go without cosmetics, go without all that to have supplements that work or to have biohacking technologies that work because that's my priority, it’s my health. Because what good does it do me if I have a fancy car, but I'm sick?  Dr. Elizabeth: I know. And it is funny, I was giving this lecture and this woman came in, she asked how much this program we do cost? And she said, ‘Well maybe when I pay off my Lexus, I'll be able to do that’. And I'm like, ‘You’re really willing to spend a lot of money, a $1,000 on an iPhone and’...  Lisa: Priorities.  Dr. Elizabeth: …and car and we just still have to keep putting this focus on your priority, absolutely has to be this your health? And it’s so hard to convince people of that. Lisa: And I'm constantly shocked at people who expect to like, they take a supplement and they don't see anything change for three days and then they're like, ‘It didn't work’. And I'm like, ‘You've got to be kidding’. Like you know your hair is growing, right? But do you see it growing every day? No.  But if you keep going—and with my listeners have heard me rabbit on about my story with my mum and bringing her back from a mess of aneurysm. The reason I have been successful with her is, is not any one particular thing. I mean, yes, hyperbaric, yes, all of these things were a big part of the puzzle. But it was the fact that I keep going when there was no signs of improvement. And I keep going every single day for five years, and I still go. And that is the key is that persistence. And that just keep doing it and prioritizing this, even when you see no results. And that's a really hard sell because people want to see, how long will it take for this to kick in? Dr. Elizabeth: I think it's one of the hardest things about our jobs is—listen, it is very hard. But this is stuff that I'm looking at a future that's 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years down the road, I know these things—I know that they do, they've been proven. So to say they're not working for you is why in every study did they work and oddly, they don't work for you? It just doesn'

Steak and CakeBy Elizabeth Karmel Intro: Welcome to the Cookery By the Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors.Elizabeth: I'm Elizabeth Karmel, and my new cookbook is Steak and Cake: More Than 100 Recipes to Make Any Meal a Smash Hit.Suzy Chase: It was so nice meeting you at your book party last month, here in New York City. The food was incredible, the crowd was incredible, and I had such a great time tasting so many things out of this amazing cookbook. So, this cookbook is an offshoot of your Steak and Cake classes at the Institute of Culinary Education. What we're all thinking is, why steak and cake? Usually, it's steak and potatoes or steak and lobster.Elizabeth: So, you know, it's interesting, this book did grow from the class that I taught, at the Institute of Culinary Education. And the way that I came up with the idea for the class, and it was a recreational class, so I was teaching home cooks, I was not teaching professional students, is that, I thought, I was teaching rec classes on Friday, Saturday and Sundays. And I thought, "You know what, I want to come up with an idea for Saturday night, that is, number one, going to be a fun class and a fun evening out. And number two, is going to give people real tips and techniques and tools, to go home with, so they can cook better at home." And I thought to myself, "What's everyone's favorite Saturday night meal? Steak and cake." Steak and a slice of chocolate cake or carrot cake or whatever your favorite cake is. And so, I thought, "That's it. That's going to be my class, steak and cake." And so, I wrote it up, and it was a huge success. It had a long waiting list, and I taught it for many, many years, and much of the same menu that I taught during that class is actually in this book.Elizabeth: And of course, it's widely expanded, but the reason that I turned it into a book is, this is going to sound really cheesy, but this is 100% true. People would come into the class, the hands-on classes are 16 people, and I would gather them around one of the work tables before we started, and everyone would go around in a circle and introduce themselves and tell me why they signed up for this class. Because I really wanted to know, personally, but also, I wanted to make sure that anything they wanted to learn, that I taught them. Even if it was a little bit off the curriculum. And so, in doing that, people were really kind of anxious, and their body language was very closed and they were really nervous, they had never made a steak. They had never baked a cake before. They didn't even know how to buy a steak. And so, by the end of four hours, after they had made their own steak, baked their cake, ate it, and declared everything delicious, they, literally, were walking taller. They were smiling, they were sending me pictures of what they were making at home, steaks and cakes. And I thought, "You know what? I can't believe a class like this, I could visibly see peoples' self esteem rising." And it was so gratifying to me that I thought, "You know what, I need to turn this into a book."Suzy Chase: So, Steak and Cake is also full of recipes from your friends and family. For example, the POTUS carrot cake originated with your cousin Carol, who was Gerald Ford's chef. Tell me about that carrot cake.Elizabeth: That carrot cake, she would make for family functions. And my mother had it, first, before I had it, and she said, "Elizabeth, this cake, this carrot cake is so delicious, you have to try it." And I said, "Well get me the recipe." And, the truth of the story, is that my cousin would not give my mother the recipe, but my mother got it from my aunt, her sister-in-law, and then gave it to me, and I tried it. And really, the addition of crushed pineapple, which is usually reserved for a hummingbird cake, makes all the difference. And then, because I can't leave good enough alone, and I'm a much more packet-full-of-flavor kind of person than my cousin Carol, I added a number of ingredients to it, but I kept the essence of her carrot cake, which was adding that can of crushed pineapple to it. Most of the recipes in the book, have some kind of inspiration, and I tell that story in the head notes. I mean, one of my favorite recipes is my key lime cheesecake, and my sister, Mary Pat, is a fabulous Baker. We call her Sticky Fingers or Sticky Pat. And oftentimes, she makes three desserts for a function because one, of course, is not enough and two, it's almost sad. And so, three is the perfect number of homemade desserts for a function.Elizabeth: And she is famous for her key lime pie, and key lime pie, of course, it's as a steakhouse favorite. But since this book was about steak and cake, I couldn't have a key lime pie recipe in here, so I took, sort of, the best of her key lime pie recipe, which I think is her pecan and graham cracker crust, and I turned it into a cheese cake, and I love it. And then, I upped the ante, by making a key lime curd, that I put on the top, which is optional. You don't have to do it. But, if you really liked that tart key lime flavor, you can do that. And so, she never made the recipe until the book was out. And now that the book has been out, she's made it four times. She's making it again for father's Day because key lime pie is her husband's favorite dessert. And now, this is sort of shuffled in, to take over the key lime pie. And the other day, I was talking to her and she goes, "I don't know if I've told you yet, but I just love that recipe. That recipe is so great." And that's so gratifying to me because I was kind of giving a nod to her key lime pie, in here, and now that she's making the cheesecake instead of her key lime pie, that really makes me happy.Suzy Chase: How did you determine the pairings? Like, the porterhouse for two with the My Mother's Freshly Grated Coconut Cake?Elizabeth: The truth of the matter is, when I started out to write this book, I ended up writing two single subject books. One on steak, and one on cake. And I got so excited about steak and cake because this really is a passion project for me, that I created twice as many recipes as we could print. And so, at the end of the day, what happened is, all the recipes that I created to balance out the book... So, my editor, Suzanne Rafer, in her wisdom, she said, "You know what, I don't care if this book is balanced, I just want your favorites." And so, all of my favorites, many things that I grew up with, like my mother's fresh grated coconut cake, are the recipes that made the cut. And so, once I had the recipes that made the cut, in terms of creating pairings, I wanted to make sure that it was balanced, so that if it was a really rich steak, maybe the cake wasn't quite as rich, or vice versa. If the cake was really rich, the steak was, maybe, a little bit plainer.Suzy Chase: You say the best steaks are cooked simply. What are your two methods?Elizabeth: That is something that, when I sat down to write this book, I realized there are really only three. I think there are three essential ways to cook a steak. There are two main ways and then one sort of new-fangled way. An outdoor grill, a cast iron skillet, and then the new-fangled way, is to sous-vide your steak, the day before you want to serve it. You can do it in the morning too, but I like to do it the day before you serve it. Then, let it rest all day, refrigerate it, and right before serving, coat it with a little bit of olive oil, season it, and then either char it on the grill or give it a great crust on a cast iron skillet.Suzy Chase: Describe how you sous-vide, for people who aren't familiar with it.Elizabeth: Okay. I'm so glad you asked me that question because people... home cooks are a little afraid of sous-viding, but sous-viding is actually easier than cooking. And today, there are lots of choices of sous-vide circulators, that you can purchase. My favorite one happens to be made by a company called Chef Steps, and it's called Joule, J-O-U-L-E. And the reason I like it is, it is, probably, no longer than 12 inches, so it's very portable. It has a magnet at the bottom, so that you can sous-vide in a Dutch oven, or in any kind of pan that's magnetized, and you don't have to buy a big plastic Cambro, which, you used to have to buy this big plastic tub, back in the early days of sous-viding. And so, now, to actually answer your question, sous-vide basically means that you are cooking food by letting it sit in circulating warm water. And essentially, the water is set at the temperature that you want the internal temperature of the meat to be. So for example, if I sous-vide a tomahawk steak, that's my favorite way to make it, that's what's pictured on the cover of my book. And I love cooking a tomahawk steak because it's full of drama. It's a long, bone-in Ribeye. That's all it is. And one tomahawk state can feed 10 people, but I mean, there's nothing like the presentation of a tomahawk steak.Elizabeth: And so, the day before, I buy it from a butcher, already vacuum sealed, and I put it in a large Dutch oven with my sous-vide circulator set at 142 degrees. And then, it cooks for about four hours. And I take it out and cool it, and then put it in the refrigerator and let it rest overnight, refrigerated. And then, right before I'm about to serve it, I brush it with olive oil, all over, because I have a mantra, "Oil the food, not the grate." And that goes for if you're cooking indoors, too, but it came from my outdoor cooking experience, and that will keep all the juices inside. It'll promote caramelization, and it'll help prevent sticking, or stickage, as I call it. And so, it is just the most delicious way to make meat for a crowd because it cooks at the same temperature, from end to end. So you know, if you cook a beef tenderloin, for example, the ends of that tenderloin, which are thinner, are generally more well done than the center. And that's true with a lot of steaks, and everything. With sous-vide cooking, it's exactly the same temperature from end to end.Suzy Chase: When I'm at the butcher, I try to take in the visual clues of freshness. What should we look for, when purchasing beef?Elizabeth: One of the things that really surprised me, in my classes, was that people didn't even know how to buy a steak. So, because of that, in my book, I put together a whole steak primer. Probably the biggest part of that primer, is what I call a steak grid. I have pictures of all the different cuts of steak, and I tell you, not only what muscle group it comes from, if there's another name for it, because across the country there are different names for different steaks, But I also came up with my version of tasting notes. When I first set out to do this, I wanted to create tasting notes, much like we create for wine or spirits. And then, when I was working on it, I realized that, you know what, "We don't have the vocabulary for tasting notes, for beef." And so, I turned that into texture and flavor intensity.Elizabeth: And I also included a guideline, as to price, because I didn't want somebody to pick a recipe from this book, and go to the grocery store, or go to the butcher, and be shocked at what the cost was. And so, I give them an idea, with dollar signs, as to whether it's a one dollar sign kind of meat, or like the tomahawk, a four dollar sign cut of meat. And, if you don't have a butcher, who you trust, who is going to get you a great cut of meat, look for the certified Angus beef seal. The word Angus is probably in 200 brands of beef, so you have to look closely, and make sure it says CAB, certified Angus beef, because what that is, is that's, really, a quality program of lots and lots of small, family ranchers that have gotten together. They have such stringent quality standards, that most of the CAB beef that you buy, is high choice to low prime, even though it's all graded as choice. In my experience, when I go to an area that I don't have a butcher, if I go to a grocery store that sells CAB meat, then I'm always assured of getting a really great, flavorful piece of steak.Suzy Chase: That's such a good tip if you're home cook, working on a budget, and you have to go to the grocery store.Elizabeth: Yes, and there are lots of places in America that don't really have butchers, right?Suzy Chase: Yeah, totally.Elizabeth: I mean, there are, I mean, the New York area is very butcher friendly, but there are a lot of places where the butcher shop of the olden days, no longer exists.Suzy Chase: In the cookbook, you quote Julia Child, "A party without a cake is just a meeting." Talk, for a moment, about your cake tour.Elizabeth: Okay, so I couldn't resist that quote, right? I mean, it's been used many, many, many times, but it's so true. A cake signifies celebration, and a cake is for sharing. And so, when I sat out to start testing the recipes that I had created for this book, I thought to myself, "Well, with the steak recipe, I can make one steak and write the recipe for four steaks. But for a cake, I can't make one slice of cake. I have to make a whole cake." So instead, what I did is, I created my Steak and Cake Tour, and I went to five different friends and family houses, for a week each. It was great. Every single morning, I woke up and I said, "What cake shall I bake?" Every one of the smash hit cakes of the five different stops, made it into the book. So, once again, the cakes that people were like, "Oh, you know what? That's good. And that's interesting." Those were the ones that did not make it into the book. But, everybody's favorites made it into the book. That's why this book is so eclectic.Suzy Chase: So, barbecue has had a big impact on my life. I grew up in Kansas City. I started my cookbook publicity career at a barbecue and grilling publisher, run by a woman, who wrote 14 BBQ cookbooks. Then, I moved to New York City in the mid nineties, and there weren't any good barbecue places until Hill Country came around, thanks to you.Elizabeth: Aw, that's nice. Thank you for saying that. And of course, you must have worked for Karen Alders, right?Suzy Chase: Karen Adler, yep.Elizabeth: Yes, of course. Of course. So, everybody in the barbecue business knows her and knows... It was called Pig Out Publications, right?Suzy Chase: Yep, it sure was.Elizabeth: Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep. So anyway, she was really a pioneer. So... well, that's so sweet of you to say. And I think that the reason that you feel that way, is that I grew up in North Carolina. I grew up on barbecue, and then when I moved away, it was really important, to me, that if I was going to create a barbecue restaurant, that it was going to be as authentic as it possibly could be, in New York City. All the way down to the fact that... Hill Country barbecue is based on the barbecue of central Texas, and in central Texas, it's a no sauce zone. But, I knew, in New York City, people would want sauce. So, I created a barbecue sauce using peaches, reminiscent of the hill country of Texas, and smoky chipoltes. And I called it If You Gotta Have It because I wanted Texans, who were familiar with central Texas barbecue, who came into the restaurant, to know that I knew that they didn't really use sauce on their barbecue.Suzy Chase: That's funny. It was like a code.Elizabeth: So there you got it. So, the reason that I think you say that there was no good barbecue until Hill Country, is because Hill Country was the first restaurant, in New York, the first barbecue restaurant to be created by someone who was a southerner, and who really had roots and authentic barbecue.Suzy Chase: I made your recipe for a classic New York Steakhouse Strip, on page 41, and Barbuto-inspired roasted potatoes, on page 181. Why is this steak your favorite cut?Elizabeth: Okay, because... I'm so glad you asked that. Now, first of all, steaks are subjective, just like cakes, right? So, I happen to love a strip steak because I love the texture of it. I like meat that still has a little bit of chew. To me, it's on the leaner side. It's certainly leaner than a ribeye, but it still has enough marbling to give it really great flavor, and so that's why it's my favorite. It literally is my absolute favorite. I love the texture. I love the flavor, and I like to eat it on the rare side of medium rare.Suzy Chase: We live around the corner from Jonathan Waxman's Barbuto, and we're sad it closed. So, these were the potatoes that they served at Barbuto?Elizabeth: Well, they're inspired by the potatoes served by Barbuto. I loved Barbuto. I was lucky enough to go to the party, the, sort of, friends and family party that they had, two days before they closed. And, I had those potatoes. I had these potatoes, no matter whether I went for brunch or for lunch or for dinner, every single time I went, because there is nothing like a baked potato that has cooled down, you crack it, then you fry it until it's craggy and crispy on all of the edges. And then, put a little bit of romano cheese and salt and rosemary on it. And, I don't know what his exact recipe was, but that's what I imagined I was eating, every single time I ate it. And so, I make them frequently, when I cook steak for people. And so, I had to put them in this book.Suzy Chase: I also made your chocolate cake on page 230. This was the easiest... The one thing I love about this cookbook, is your cake recipes are easy. And then, I think you have three hard ones, right?Elizabeth: I do have some advanced cakes. So, I like to say that this book has something from... literally for everyone. From tacos to tomahawks, and the Texmex chocolate sheet cake, which I think is the easiest cake in the book, and very, very satisfying, to my mother's fresh grated coconut cake, which is a little bit more advanced.Suzy Chase: For my segment, called My Last Meal, what would you have for your last supper?Elizabeth: Wow, that is a good question. And I deserve that question because one of the pairings in this book is my brother-in-laws' last meal, basically. And so, I asked him that question, and so I deserve to be asked that question. And it's so hard for me because my favorite thing to eat is, really, literally, whatever I'm cooking right now. But, I think that if I had to drill it down, my last meal... I think that I would love tomahawk steak with lobster, so I'm going a little rogue from the recipe in the book, and my mother's fresh grated coconut cake. And we got to throw those Barbuto potatoes in there, too.Suzy Chase: Yeah, definitely. Thank you, Jonathan.Elizabeth: Yes, thank you, Jonathan.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Elizabeth: ElizabethKarmel.com, that is connected to my very first website, which is almost 20 years old. That's called Girls at The Grill. Instagram, I'm @ElizabethKarmel, and on Twitter, I'm @GrillGirl, and Facebook is also Elizabeth Karmel.Suzy Chase: Let them eat cake and steak. Thanks, Elizabeth, for coming on Cookery by The Book Podcast.Elizabeth: Oh, thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun to talk about Steak and Cake, which really is my passion project.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram, @CookeryByTheBook, and subscribe at CookeryByTheBook.com, or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by The Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks, since 2015.

The Italian TableBy Elizabeth Minchilli Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book podcast. With Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors. Elizabeth: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Minchilli and my latest cookbook is The Italian Table.Suzy Chase: The Italian Table is glorious, from the recipes to the photos. The first thing you see when you open the cookbook is the stunning kitchen with rustic blue and white tile, and blue and white plates hung on the wall. Is this your kitchen?Elizabeth: Oh, I wish! That's a kitchen in a beautiful castle outside of Rome. Although I've spent a lot of time in it.Suzy Chase: Oh, that tile is to die for.Elizabeth: Beautiful. And you know, a lot of the kitchen, I didn't get into all the kitchens in the book, but the particularly beautiful ones I tried to include since they're so inspirational.Suzy Chase: I can't figure out what's more beautiful in this cookbook, your writing or your photographs. What do you love more?Elizabeth: Well, you know, for me, since the kinds of books I've always done have been so image-driven, I can't imagine one without the other. And I see the photographs as giving a different dimension to the words. And that's always been my response to cookbooks, you know. I love, obviously, recipes that work, but I love the story behind them. But I also like the visual inspiration, whether it's actually the food or the place settings or the tiles on the kitchen wall.Suzy Chase: Me too. So I found it interesting that each chapter captures a specific meal that you experienced in Italy. Describe how this cookbook is laid out.Elizabeth: Well the way, I was trying to decide how to combine my competing passions for, you know, interior design and setting and history with food. And I realized that it all came together at the table. And once I decided that, I wanted to share as many different kinds of meals as possible to show my readers how Italians really eat. I mean you know, most people imagine certain dishes with Italy, whether it's pasta or pizza or gelato. But people aren't eating those things all day long, and they're not eating them perhaps in the way that people think. So while the settings are beautiful, these are really the way people eat, whether it's at the beach, whether it's on a coffee break, you know, grabbing a slice of pizza in Rome. Whether it's in a summer vacation villa outside of, in Umbria. So I wanted to have a great range and that way to be able to explore both the setting and the food on the table.Suzy Chase: Yeah, I notice that you really drill down beyond the ingredients, beyond the cooking technique. Like you'll get the pasta and the bowl, but what about the bowl, or the tool used to get the pasta from the bowl to the plate or even the linens that cover the table. I love that part.Elizabeth: Yeah, that's my ... I love that part too. And not just because it involves shopping opportunities. What I really love about it is that it really, you know, 'cause when you go to a place you might have a great meal and you might support the local restaurants, in a way, but there's other ways that you can learn more deeply about a region and that's by visiting its artisans. And you know a lot of people will see pretty, you know, ceramics from Italy and stop there, knowing that they're from Italy. But I really like to, you know, drive home why this certain kind of plate shows up if you're on the beach in Positano, why a different kind of bowl shows up if you're in a small town in Puglia, and what those mean. And explore a bit about the people who are actually making those bowls, who are often the people that are eating those dishes anyway.Suzy Chase: Here's the question I'm dying to know the answer to. How did a girl from St. Louis end up in Rome as an expert on Italian cuisine?Elizabeth: Well, that goes back to the fact that when I was 12 years old I was living in St. Louis and my parents took a vacation, and they went to Italy and they did Florence, Venice, Rome. And they came back and instead of getting back to our life they packed up our house, sold the business, and we moved to Rome for two years. And although we only stayed there for two years and then moved back to the States, we always came back in the summer. And so I always felt at home whether it was in Italy or Spain or France, trying to get a way to get back, and that way came back in graduate school. And in the late '80s I decided if I picked a, you know, my dissertation topic correctly, I could get somebody else to sort of fund my permanent vacation, and I did. And I ended up in Florence working on sixteenth century gardens. And then along the way I met my Italian husband and started having Italian babies and Italian dogs and that's when my new career really shifted gears from academia to publishing. And at the beginning I was writing predominantly about art and architecture and design, but almost really really shortly thereafter I also started writing about food. But always in a cultural context. You know, when I was writing for Bon Appetit or Food & Wine or Town & County I would write about restaurants but more, not just as a place to find good food but as a way to dive deeper into the culture.Suzy Chase: Tell me about where you live.Elizabeth: I currently divide my time between Rome and Umbria. Umbria is a region located just north, in between, let's say, Rome and Florence. And my main house is a little apartment in the old section of Rome called Monti. It's a little, I'm now talking to you from my office on the roof of our building. We've been living here, my husband had the apartment when I met him, my kids have been born here, and it's right, I mean, if I walked out, I just now walked down the street and my cash machine, my ATM, is in front of the Colosseum. Which is kind of nice.Suzy Chase: Oh, wow.Elizabeth: And then our house up in Umbria, which is on the cover of the book, actually. We spend the summers there and have a big vegetable garden and we have olive trees so we make our own olive oil and that's where we live.Suzy Chase: How old is your house in Umbria? It looks like it's stone.Elizabeth: It's made out of stone. And the house itself is, I would say parts date back to the sixteenth century.Suzy Chase: Wow. That's gorgeous.Elizabeth: And you know, like all of these houses, they're built onto over the years, and we restored it. My husband's an architect, and his specialty is restoring these houses into inhabitable places. And in fact two of my books talk about restoring houses in Italy.Suzy Chase: Talk a bit about how the Italian food words are the hardest to tackle. Like, cicchetti, in Venice, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. What is it, and where would we eat it?Elizabeth: Well, cicchetti is a word that yeah, exists only in Venice. Took me a really hard time to figure out what it means, because people translate it into tapas, you know? 'Cause we think we know what that means. Or little bites. And they kind of are both those things. But when you say to a Venetia, they know exactly what it means and it has a sort of social context. It means, little things to eat along with a glass of wine so you don't get too drunk 'cause that's not the point. The point is actually meeting your friends and having a drink. And the food is sort of secondary. And you know all this stuff I just said, it's hard to put down in a one word translation. But it's funny you ask that because I mean, food in Italy is so difficult to translate and this past week I just did food tours as well, and Melissa Clark was just here and we were doing-Suzy Chase: Yes. You had your Awful Tour.Elizabeth: We had our Awful Tour. And it wasn't awful at all, it was wonderful. But it did deal with innards. And one of the things that we both learned, you know, we were both in Umbria, in Rome, and in Florence, is you know, the same little part of an animal can have, you know, ten different words depending where you are in Italy. And for me, that's sort of the fascinating thing. There's always something more to learn. You know, you said I'm an expert in Italian food, but I find it hard to believe that anybody's an expert. I think that there's always something to learn.Suzy Chase: Well since you brought up Melissa Clark, tell me about your food tours and your daughter Sophie.Elizabeth: So, when I first started my blog I didn't really know, you know, back in the early days of blogs, I didn't really know what it would lead to and how it would make money. 'Cause blogs don't make money. And so one of the things that it led to was doing food tours. And people started asking me for food tours and I didn't quite know what they were at the time. Nobody was really doing them in Rome. And so I started doing them, and I did market tours around several different neighborhoods in Rome on my own, and was immediately very busy doing these tours. And I was doing it on my own for a few years and then luckily my daughter, Sophie, graduated university. She was going to school in London, came back here, and I convinced her to work with me. And so now we both got sort of more work than we can handle. She's doing, handling the day by day tours here in Rome. I do some of them as well. But my time is mostly focused on our week in Italy tours. And those are deep dives into different regions. We're currently doing tours in Rome, in Florence, and in Puglia. And we do them on our own, they're usually six nights. We do them on our own, sometimes we partner with people. I've partnered with Melissa Clark twice and Evan Kleiman, who's located in LA. She's a cookbook author and host of Good Food.Suzy Chase: The best.Elizabeth: Yeah. And then in July we're doing one with Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat Pray Love.Suzy Chase: Oh cool.Elizabeth: Yeah. We're doing one in Puglia. So it's a fun excuse to collaborate with friends, and also see Rome and Italy in general from a different point of view.Suzy Chase: What influence did Anna Tasca Lanza and her cooking school have on you?Elizabeth: Well I just remember seeing the book really early on, you know, when I first moved to Italy, working on my dissertation. I can remember picking up the Marcella Hazan books, cooking through them, and then there were these books also by Anna Tasca Lanza. And these beautifully illustrated books. And Sicilian food at the time, even in Italy, people weren't really talking about it. And I just found it fascinating. And when I started writing about food and getting sent on press trips, I found myself at the Tasca d’Almerita estate. And seeing these pictures of the food processes that were going on in both of the houses on the estate. And there was one house that sort of focused on the wine and then there was Anna Tasca Lanza at the other villa. And I would see these pictures of like, women pouring tomato sauce on wooden planks in a sun drenched courtyard making tomato paste, and her recipes talked about these really romantic memories of the house cook sort of teaching her how to make things, and with the ingredients from the land. And it always was something that stuck in my head, and over the years I've made it back there as many times as possible and I'm really happy to recreate a menu inspired by my time there.Suzy Chase: You have a gorgeous porchetta in this cookbook. What is the key to a good porchetta?Elizabeth: Well obviously the key to any of these dishes is getting great ingredients. And the other thing is that you have to sort of, a lot of these recipes that people love are often eaten in certain places. For instance, porchetta is most likely eaten at the side of the road, you know, as you're driving through Italy there's a porchetta stand and he's got, you know, this 200 pound pig on the side of the road that he's cutting thick slices off of. I don't think anybody that's buying my book has an oven big enough to fit a pig in it. And so the challenge of my recipe was creating a porchetta that you could cook at home. And in that case it was something that would fit in your oven, have all that crispy skin, have all the nice juicy fat, but not get dried out in the middle. And so I, working with my local butcher in Umbria, I came up with that recipe. So it has all those things. And it's just super easy. Once you get the really right kind of meat, you barely season it. I mean, you season it correctly, tie it up correctly, you put it in the oven and you walk away. So, and I have to say, most of the recipes in the book are sort of, you know, not a lot of work.Suzy Chase: I can't talk about porchetta without bringing up fraschetta. Describe a fraschetta.Elizabeth: A fraschetta.Suzy Chase: Fras-, yes.Elizabeth: Sorry! They're all really hard. Everybody mispronounces my name, too, because the C and the H and all those things are really hard to get in Italy. So, a fraschette.Suzy Chase: Yes.Elizabeth: A fraschetta is a restaurant located in the town of Ariccia. It's south of Rome and it's known for its porchetta. And these fraschette were originally just little shops, like hole in the walls that would sell wine. And people would sit outside and to provide shade the owners would put up a few branches to provide shade, so its leaves still attached. And those are frasce. And so these places became known as fraschette, where you could go get sort of table wine. And bring your own food. Eventually these places started serving their own food, turned into restaurants, but they're still called fraschette today. And one of the places that actually, Sophie and I visit a lot, is la Selvotta in Ariccia. And the pictures in the book come from our experience there, which is one of my favorite ones because it's actually located in a leafy sort of forest.Suzy Chase: It looks heavenly.Elizabeth: It is. And the food is just, you know, it's what you want to sit down at a picnic bench and eat. It's like, mozzarella and salami and olives. And then you always have a few cooked things included. Porchetta, maybe, some sausages. It's fantastic.Suzy Chase: So last night I made some of your recipes out of the menu for a late summer dinner under the pergola. Even though it's the dead of winter here.Elizabeth: I saw that, I saw that! I saw that. You put them on Instagram. They looked perfect. Well, I have to say when people are asking me what's my go-to recipe in the book, it's the bean soup recipe. It's just so good.Suzy Chase: It's two minutes.Elizabeth: I know. It's two minutes. And people really think you put a lot more effort into it than you did.Suzy Chase: Yeah.Elizabeth: I mean, if you start out with dried beans and soak them, it does become, you know. And I do suggest you do that. But I'm not gonna tell anybody if you use canned beans, that's okay.Suzy Chase: Okay, thanks.Elizabeth: But I have to say, it's a great winter recipe, but then I find that in the summer if you serve people soup they really appreciate it. It's like something they don't expect and they're sick of eating cold food.Suzy Chase: Describe the story that went with this menu, how you became a good Italian momma immediately after your daughters were born.Elizabeth: Well one of the things, one of the many things that I realized, is that being an Italian momma has lots of sort of unspoken rules. And one of them is that while you stay in the city with your kids during school year, the minute the school year ends or the weekend comes, you head out to a country house. And I don't know how it is, but everybody seems to have a country house. Whether it's your Nonna, whether it's, you know, your friends, you go out to the countryside. And so I would pack up the kids and go up to the country. And so that's where, you know, even though we live in Rome, I learned to cook a lot and entertain at our house in Todi. And you know I learned to cook, you know, meals according to the seasons as well, which is something that's, I think, really important.Suzy Chase: So moving on to my segment called My Last Meal, what would you have for your last supper?Elizabeth: You know, it has to do with place as well. So I think I would have to say, maybe a plate of carbonara at one of my favorite Trattoria, Perilli in Rome. Just because for me that sums up sort of everything. It sums up the place I would go for Sunday lunches with my family, it has my favorite waiter Valerio, it's a place that's always been there before I got there, it will exist long after I leave. And the plate, you know, the carbonara goes without saying.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Elizabeth: On social media, I'm eminchilli at Instagram. And I am Elizabeth Minchilli on Facebook, and eminchilli on Twitter. And my website is elizabethminchilli.com. And I also have an app, Eat Italy, which is guides for eating your way through Rome, Venice, Florence, Puglia, Umbria, and more and more cities every day.Suzy Chase: Thanks Elizabeth, for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.Elizabeth: It was great to be here. Thanks for having me.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram, @cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery By The Book podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks, since 2015.

Elizabeth Tulasi, who brings 15 years of political and non-profit management experience to her Board role for California Women's List, a political action committee that supports Democratic women running for state office in California. She started her career as a Capitol Hill staffer in Washington DC. Upon returning to California, Elizabeth worked at a Food Bank, advocating to make healthy food more accessible and other programs that serve families living in poverty. Most recently she managed issue campaigns at California's largest business advocacy alliance as COO. More about California Women's List. Learn more about The Passionistas Project.   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. Today we're talking with Elizabeth Tulasi who brings 15 years of political and nonprofit management experience to her board role for California Women's List a political action committee that supports democratic women running for state office in California. She started her career as a Capitol Hill staffer in Washington, DC. Upon returning to California, Elizabeth worked at a food bank advocating to make healthy food more accessible and other programs that serve families living in poverty. Most recently, she managed issue campaigns at California's largest business advocacy alliance as COO. So please welcome to the show Elizabeth Tulasi. Elizabeth Tulasi: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Passionistas: Thanks for being here. What are you most passionate about? Elizabeth: I'm most passionate about, I think finding the truth and everybody recognizing what is the truth and what is real. And I think that if people have information and people recognize what's going on, then we can all make better decisions. I think a lot of things in our economy and our society and our political processes are hidden and obfuscated often on purpose. So if those things come to light and people have that information, then we can all make better choices that I think are better for everyone better for our clinic. Passionistas: How does that relate to the activism that you do? Elizabeth: Well, I think a lot of people don't know what decisions are made at all various levels of government. I think a lot of people don't even know what the various levels of government are. The presidential campaigns take up a lot of space in people's minds and they are of course, very important, but the decisions that affect your and my everyday life are usually made much closer to home. And we also have more control over those things. So, you know, thinking about schools, if we want good schools in our communities, those decisions are made by local school boards. The funding that schools have are determined because of state and local taxes that are also determined by state and local representatives. If you have good parks in your neighborhood or in your state, those again are determined by local and state elected officials. So a lot of power resides much closer to wherever you live. And I really want people to know about that and to insert their voices into those conversations. You know, Nancy and I were talking just a minute ago about the passing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she has so many quotable nuggets of wisdom. But I think that I think a lot about is one where she said women belong in all places where decisions are being made and decisions are being made all around us. And we need to know what decisions those are, who's making them. And how do we be part of that? Let's go back. Passionistas: When did you get interested in politics and activism? Elizabeth: I remember as a kid, I was even in girl Scouts, which wasn't necessarily political, but it was public service. And a lot of the things that we were working on, it became a question of why is this problem? You know, like when we would go make sandwiches and give them out to homeless folks, living in our area as a kid, you're always asking why are there so many homeless people, why do we need to clean up the parks? You know, like all of the little service projects that we did, it was kind of, the question is always like, well, why is it this way? So I think that that really leads to understanding what factors govern our lives. And then in high school, I was in the, I think 10th grade or 11th grade when nine 11 happened. And so there was a lot of political choices that led to that and were coming out of that. And so I became more active at that point. And then I think also, you know, even things like LGBT rights, I mean, in high school, I was involved in drama in a theater. So I had a lot of gay friends. And at the time, I don't know that I knew that much about the politics of that, but, you know, you become kind of an activist in defending people's rights to just exist.   Passionistas: You actually worked in DC early in your career. So what did you do there? Elizabeth: I went to DC to do AmeriCorps. So AmeriCorps is like our domestic peace Corps program. So I gave a year to work for a foundation that promoted public service and volunteerism. So I did that for a year. And then I worked for a member of Congress who is actually from Los Angeles, Grace Napoitano. So I worked there as her scheduler. What did that entail? I definitely had a lot more power than I knew I had at that time. I did not capitalize on that as well as I should have a member of Congress is just constantly in demand by their constituents by special interest groups by lobbyists. They're always, time is just of the essence. And so my job was to manage her time and to assess all of those requests that were coming in all the time and assign them to other staff members or make the time on the congressman's calendar. There's just a lot of balancing of priorities. Passionistas: Did you like being in the DC system? Elizabeth: No, I did not like it there. I left after that second year. So a few reasons why I don't like D C one, weather it's terrible, there's like three nice weeks in the spring and three nice weeks in the fall. And then the rest of the time it's either like sweating, like anything you've ever experienced. You're trudging through sleet. And it's not like pretty glistening white snow and I'm from LA. So I, you know, you can't hang with that for a long.  Then two is the, I felt just professionally. The first question anybody asks you in any setting is who do you work for? And it's very much about assessing how valuable you are to them in that moment. And I just felt like people just talked about work all the time. And when I came back to California and I remember my lunch break at my, my first day at work and, you know, there's people in the kitchen, you know, microwaving their lunches or whatever. And people were talking about what they did on the weekends. People were talking about their, you know, how they went, kayaking. People talked about a meeting they were going to after work. I mean, I just realized like, Oh my God, you people talk about other things besides just what happens in this building. And I thought that was very impressive.   Passionistas: During your time in DC. was there something you learned there that you've sort of taken through your career? Elizabeth: I mean, it was also the very beginning of my career. So I think there's a lot that you just learn from being new in a professional workplace. One thing which may or may not be specific to politics, but is, you know, know your audience and understand what does this person, or what does this group want and how can I address that with whatever I have. And sometimes that doesn't necessarily mean giving them what they want, but it means like making them feel heard. And I think that that is applicable in a lot of different industries. I guess, making people feel heard without actually giving them anything or committing to anything is a skill that is useful. Passionistas: Did you come straight back to LA or did you go to San Francisco first? Elizabeth: I went to San Francisco after DC. I wasn't quite ready to move back home or move back to my home area. And I lived there for five years. What did you do there? I worked for a food bank there. So actually I lived in the East Bay. I lived in Oakland and Berkeley for some time, but I worked in San Francisco for the San Francisco Marin food bank. And I started out as an executive assistant, which was a good kind of transition from a scheduler type of role and also great for being able to see all the different parts of the organization and the business, how things run. And also at that organization, deep policy and advocacy stuff really happened with the CEO and in his office, out of his office directly. So I was useful in that space. Then I transitioned to become a major gifts officer, which is basically you talk to high net worth individuals and try to give them money for things that you're trying to do for the community. Passionistas: Was there a part of being of service in that job that you connected to? Elizabeth: I think what was really cool about that job is that I was basically Robin hooding, you know, like I was taking money from rich people and using it to buy food for poor people. And that, you know, just in a very simplistic way, it feels like a good use of time, energy. And we were really making a huge impact, even in a place as wealthy as San Francisco. One in four people are at risk of hunger and don't know where their food is. Next meal is going to come from. Most of those are children and the elderly, and that's true for a lot of places across the country. So we did, I think, really good work also on the policy front, there's a ton of policy that affects whether or not people have enough money for food and can afford to pay rent and pay for medical bills and pay for food. So I did some cool stuff there. I think that ultimately as a service organization, the amount of time that they could spend on advocacy is smaller than what I was interested. And so eventually I left because I wanted to get more into politics. Passionistas: So then you moved back to LA at that point, you worked for the Los Angeles County business Federation. Talk about that job and what you did there. Elizabeth: So the LA County business Federation is an Alliance of a bunch of different business groups. So if you think about every industry has an association, every ethnic or minority group basically has a chamber of commerce. Every city has a chamber of commerce. So you think about the national association of women business owners or the bicycle coalition or the Long Beach Chamber of Commerce or any of these kinds of groups that are operating in California. We kind of organized all of them together so that we could be advocating for economic policies. When, when we all agreed on them, we represented 400,000 business owners across California. And we're the largest association of associations basically in the country. Passionistas: While you were doing that, were you also volunteering at nonprofit org? Elizabeth: Yeah. I had all of these volunteer roles while I was working. So over the course of my time at that job, I also served on the board of the United left, the next fund. I also served on the local democratic club, our Stonewall young Democrats here in LA, and I'm started on the board of California women's list. Passionistas: Tell us about the California Women's List and what they do and what you do for them. Elizabeth: California Women's list is a political action committee. So we raise money for and support democratic women running for office here in California. And we're very focused on state level offices. So the state legislature, and also there's a lot of constitutional offices. So think about things like the treasurer, the controller, the secretary of state, the governor, those kinds of directly elected positions.  We are a fully volunteer run board and organization. So I'm the external relations chair. And I help to create partnerships with other organizations and to work on a lot of our kind of more public facing campaigns right now, for example, we are starting selling merchandise that sends electrical women. And so if you go to CaliforniaWomenPlus.org, you can shop our store and buy cool merch that is professionally designed by an awesome graphic designer that we have on our board. I mean, it's unique and very different from a lot of the other kind of political t-shirts that I've seen around there and hats and whatnot. So, you know, we had to get that store up and running. So that was a project I worked on. Passionistas: What is California Women's List most focused on as we get into crunch time leading up to the election? Elizabeth: We have endorsed 24 candidates for state office this cycle. So we are very focused on raising money for them and giving it to them right away so that they can spend that on mail on the technology that they need to, you know, transition and have transitioned from a lot of door knocking and in person events to now everything is digital. So those digital tools cost money, some cases, depending on their market, they might be doing radio or TV ads. So they need money for all of that kind of thing. Also in California, especially important for women running for office in California is now finally you can use campaign funds to pay for childcare. There are only 17 States that allow candidates to pay for childcare campaign funds and California just became one of those States last year. So if there are, you know, some, a lot of our candidates are moms and childcare is really important to make sure that more women who have kids are able to run for office and be successful. Passionistas: Tell us about The Grace Society and what that is. Elizabeth: Grace Society is the donor circle for California Women's List. So if you want to help elect more women in California, then you can be a member of our Grace Society. It's only $50 for a year. And so you can pay that all at once or you can do $5 a month or whatever you need to do, and it helps you be a part of the fabric of our organization and a more consistent way. We have a little lapel pin that we send. That's nice. You get early access to our merch when we launch new products and also to our events that we have, you get early access and discounted tickets and all that sort of thing. So it's just a way for folks who want to support our work to help us sustain this effort, because it is a lot of fundraising around campaign cycles, but the work is ongoing and particularly for a lot of local and state races, those are not always happening at the same time as kind of these more well known races like the presidential. So that organizing work is happening all year. Passionistas: Why is it so important to have more women in politics? Elizabeth: When we see more women in elected bodies, those elected bodies have more transparency and they aren't, they tend to be more effective. So it's really important that everybody is represented at the level that they are in the society. You know, so not just women, but also people with disabilities, people who are immigrants, people with different kinds of work experience, people of different ethnic and language backgrounds. All of these folks are part of our society, but they are not all represented commensurate to their numbers and society. So that is a symptom of a problem. You know, if all things were equal, then everybody would just be part of the process. But because they're not in California, only 33% of our legislature is women. And that's basically an all-time high in the early two thousands, California ranked sixth in the nation for the percentage of women in the legislature. But by 2013, we fell to the 32nd place. And that's not because other States made a ton of progress. It's because the number of women in California state legislature went down. So it's really important that we have equal representation. And it's important that we are all fighting for it all the time because the number went down because we took our eye off. The ball progress is not linear. You know, I think we see that, especially that has become very clear as people over the last four years, we can't just count on it happening.  Passionistas: Why don't more women run for office? Elizabeth: Women do win their races basically as often as men do, it's just that they don't self-select and run that much. Women have to be asked to run for office multiple times before they start. So I really want women to know that you have just as good of an opportunity to run. And I also want women and men to know, and everybody to know that a big challenge that women candidates face is raising money. And that is because women can also raise as much as men do. We just tend to do it in smaller chunks. So men generally have access to wealthier donors and business circles and things like that. And so they are often able to raise more money faster. Whereas women have to spend longer cultivating more donors who are giving at smaller or lower amounts. And so I say that because I want everybody who's listening to, this can be a donor, not everyone's going to run for office and that's fine, but everybody can be a donor. Everybody can be a volunteer. And so really think about how you can give as much as possible, how you can encourage other people to give to political candidates. Women give a ton to charity, but we do not give as much to political campaigns and investing in a political campaign is investing in the future that you want to see your list. Passionistas: You're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Elizabeth Tulasi. Visit californiawomenslist.org to find out more about the organization. And join The Grace Society to receive an exclusive annual pin, a members only quarterly newsletter discount to tickets, to CWL programs and access to special members only events. Now here's more of our interview with Elizabeth. If there was a woman that wanted to get into the political arena, what would you want her to know? Elizabeth: I want women who are interested in politics to know that there are organizations out there to help support you to get you involved. So you don't have to feel intimidated. I think so many women feel like they don't know enough. And frankly, I wish more men recognize that they don't know enough because they don't know more than we do. They just don't care that they don't know more than we do now. And so I wish women would recognize that just because you don't know everything doesn't mean that you cannot be an effective leader in your community. It doesn't mean that you don't know good solutions. There are organizations out there of other women who can help support you as you learn more and figure out how to make change in your community. Passionistas: Why is it so important for women to get involved in all levels of government? Elizabeth: It's important to have women in all elected offices, but a thing that I want people to know about, you know, state and local is that those are the pipelines for higher office. So you look at somebody like Kamala Harris who ran for president. She's now the vice presidential nominee, but right now she's a Senator or US Senator. Prior to that, she was serving at the state level. She was California's Attorney General. And before that she was serving at, in her city. And a lot of the women that we heard of that were vice presidential contenders worked at various levels of government before they get up to that level. So it was great because of this democratic primary. There were a bunch of women who were running and had very viable campaigns, but obviously in the past, there was always hope putting all of our hopes and dreams on one woman. And that's because the pipeline to get to that level was so sweet. So if we have more women serving at various levels, then we have more opportunity for them to go higher. There are great women serving in state legislatures all across the country. So a couple of that, I just wanted to shout out Sarah Innamorato is elected in Pennsylvania. She's been serving since 2018 and she's from the Pittsburgh area. She's 34. And she beat an incumbent in a landslide by fighting for progressive values in a state that is very ideologically diverse. So she started her own marketing firm previously. And then she decided to run for office in Texas. There's a woman named Gina Calanni. She was a paralegal and a mom of three boys, and she ran. She's the first woman to represent her area in the state, Texas state legislature. She beat an incumbent Republican, and she's already passed 11 bills. And she's only been in the state legislature for a year. She's focused on the minutia of processes that slow things down like forensic testing or allowing school funding to go towards these big separate packages for fired administrators. So these are kind of unsexy details that really matter to how well your government works in Virginia. There was a woman named Masha Rex Baird, and she was the youngest woman ever elected to the Virginia House of delegates. When she won in 2015, she was 28 years old at the time. She's so active in her community. When you read her bio she's on so many different, you know, volunteering and serving on so many different boards and commissions, and she's focused on her service on economic development and education so that her community has good jobs in it. And then the folks in the community have the skills to be able to get into those jobs. And just this week, she passed a bill banning, no knock warrants in Virginia, which is the kind of warrant that police officers used when they murdered Brianna Taylor. So all of these women in different parts of the country are breaking barriers in their own ways and making really important change. You can see how important that is to their state. And so I share all of these examples because if you started looking at some of the women that are serving in your community in leadership roles, you will see that they're women just like you and your experience is important to bring to bear in California. Somebody who's now become a national figure is Katie Porter and in her first term in Congress. And she's the only single mom serving in Congress right now. And so she brings a lived experience that is really important because obviously there's so many single moms across America and the people who are making the rules and govern their lives, have no idea what they're doing. And so whatever you have, if you know anybody else who has that same kind of experience, then that voice deserves to be heard. Passionistas: Why are state and local governments so important? Elizabeth: That is keeping you up at night these days, or that's, you know, you're really stressed out about and state and local government have a huge impact on that. So COVID obviously is really on the top of everyone's mind. And the hospital capacity in your area is a function of probably your County government or, you know, what the kinds of facilities and specialties that they have in your area are also determined by state policy. Every community has a public health official and how much the politicians listen to that public health official. That's all determined. I mean, that's all happening at the local level. I think another thing people are really stressed out about right now is money. So how much you earn and how much it costs to live, where you live, that's all determined by local factors. A lot of money stuff is happening in your area.   And it's very specific to where you live national policies affect these things, of course, but the bulk of the economic policies that affect your day to day life are happening in your city or in your County or your state. I think a lot of folks right now also are paying more attention to family policies and also to unemployment. And that is handled at the state level. And so if have not yet received your unemployment check or you had the system was down when you tried to apply, that's because of stuff that's happening at the state level education and childcare education is handled by your local school board. How much money they have is determined by state and local taxes. Policing and prisons are really top of mind for folks right now, your city council and your mayor determine how much money the police are going to get in your city.   If you are in a place where you, you don't have municipal police, you might have a County sheriff. The sheriff is usually in elected position all across the country. So that's a directly elected person who's handling those policies and jails. I just learned in California that there's a bill going through the state legislature right now that is focused on how we in California treat people who are in jail and prison who are pregnant and whether or not they can be handcuffed to their hospital bed during childbirth, whether or not they get preference for the bottom bunk in, in their jail, you know, or have to climb up to the top bunk, whether they can be put in solitary confinement while you're pregnant. So there's a lot of policies that have to do with how we treat prisoners in our States that really matter and voting is another big one.   There's a lot of concern with the integrity of our various voting systems. And every one of those voting systems is controlled by your state government and your local elections. Or so if you're concerned about who has access to voting or who doesn't have access to voting, or how easy or hard it is to vote in your area that is completely determined by your state government, why is voting important to you? Really broadly voting is important to me because so many people have died for this, right, and have died, or, you know, really put their wives at risk for this democracy. And this democracy only works if people participate in it. So that is very motivating to me. And then I think specifically right now, why it's important that everybody vote is because I think we think of ourselves as very polarized right now as a country.   And that is certainly true, but there are so many more people that are not participating in that at all, that I think their voices don't matter, but they do. We often hear people saying that it doesn't matter. Who's elected all the politicians are the same. And I think we can see now that that is not true, that people who are elected have power over our lives. And we need to make sure that those people have values and lived experiences that are similar to ours. And I think that government is created to be hard for people to get engaged. A lot of our systems right now are, are designed that way. And similar forces want us to believe that our votes don't matter, that our voices don't matter. And that again, is to achieve certain goals that I don't agree with. And I don't want, I think we've also seen how much, particularly for women, the power and the status that we have as women now that certainly my mother's generation didn't have. My grandmother's generation did not have. That was hard fought recently won and backsliding. As we speak, women are still mostly responsible for what happens at home. So when we are all home all the time, now that means we're responsible for everything all the time. And a lot of women who are also trying to work, but then they're not able to spend as much time at work or working because of all of this kind of unpaid domestic labor that we're involved in. And it's going to have long-term effects on women's economic mobility. And then I think there's also, you think about maternal mortality, maternal mortality is going up in America. We're one of the only countries where maternal mortality is increasing and it's particularly a problem with black and indigenous and women of color. If our government is worth anything, it should be that it doesn't let women die while they're giving birth. We see like the number of elected women is going up right now, partly because of the rates that women feel. So we're taking to running and supporting each other. But again, that is not guaranteed, that kind of progress. And we need women in all rooms where decisions are being made. So in state legislatures at your city hall, in board rooms and CEO's offices in the white house, we need women's voices and all of these places. And that again is not guaranteed. And when people say things like make America great, again, this kind of backsliding is exactly what that means to them. And that is very motivating to me to not let that happen. Passionistas: How can the average person have an impact on the upcoming election? Elizabeth: All of us have spheres of influence and all of us have people that listen to us and care about what we're saying. A lot of people feel like helpless right now, or they don't know where to start. And like I said, it is confusing on purpose, but you can vote and you can get three other people to vote. You can check your voter registration today. You can encourage three other people to check their voter registration. You can call your friends. Everybody who is getting a Christmas card from me is also getting a phone call from me, asking them, what is your voting plan? Because asking somebody, what is your plan? And having them just verbalize that to you is actually a really proven, effective way to get people to actually vote. And so in that scenario, you're not even telling them like, Hey, you should vote for this person that I care about. Cause sometimes those are awkward conversations or, you know, whatever, even though that's what's necessary right now is have those conversations with people in your life. But at the minimum, what you can do is just ask people to vote and encourage them and make sure that they have the information. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Elizabeth Tulasi, visit californiawomenslist.org to find out more about the organization. And join The Grace Society to receive an exclusive annual pin, a members only quarterly newsletter, discounted tickets to CWL programs and access to special members only events. Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women-owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list, to get 10% off your first purchase. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast. So you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.  

Episode 13 of The Teaching Space Podcast is an interview with Elizabeth Hutchinson from the Schools' Library Service in Guernsey. Podcast Episode 13 Transcript Welcome to The Teaching Space podcast, coming to you from Guernsey in the Channel Islands.  Hello, and welcome to Episode 13 of The Teaching Space Podcast. It's Martine here, thank you so much for joining me. In today's episode, I'm interviewing Elizabeth Hutchinson from the Schools' Library Service in Guernsey.  Martine: Welcome, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Hello there, nice to be here. Martine: Lovely to have you here. Rather than me do the introductions, I'm going to kick off with a question to you. Who are you and what do you do? Elizabeth: Okay. I'm Head of the Schools' Library Service in Guernsey. I'm a librarian, and I support the school libraries across the Bailiwick of Guernsey. We look after and support all primary schools, all secondary schools, and we even fly across to Alderney to support them too. Martine: Fantastic. It's a busy job then, by the sounds of things. Elizabeth: It is. I've got a nice little team, which is good. We sort of share the schools between us. We each allocate, I allocate schools to individual librarians so that schools expect to see the same person most of the time. Of course we're sharing across our resources too, so it's a bit of an unusual role for us to play because it's a support service that we offer, but we work very closely with schools and teachers, which is our aim really. Martine: What do people think the role of the school librarian is, and what is it really? Two questions in one there. Elizabeth: Okay, well our service is slightly different, we are providing the professional school librarian role. Throughout the years that I've worked at Schools' Library Service, there is a very clear misconception on what a school librarian does. There are two people that you would see within a school library, one is a library assistant whose job is to issue the books and look after the day to day running of the school library. The other one is the professional school librarian, and their role is very different from what most people think a librarian does. Our role as a school librarian is just to work alongside the teachers and the curriculum. Our role is to support information literacy, which is the ability for anyone to find access, evaluate, give credit, and use good quality information. We provide resources and support in accessing those resources. There are the book loans from the Schools' Library Service that you can get from your own school library, but there's also the online resources. Our role is to support the students in using those effectively. What we find is that students are very good at doing that Google search, that question into Google and hoping that the answer's going to pop out. As you progress through your academic schooling you need to be using better quality academic resources or be very highly skilled in evaluating the resources that you're finding. We work with them to make sure that they understand a keyword search, that they understand that in any academic source you cannot type a question, that you have to think about what you're looking for, and actually how you tweak those keywords to actually find what you need. The more students look online for information, the less skilled they get at actually finding what they really need. That's where we're sort of, our main aim at the moment is, is to support that. Is that the new Guernsey curriculum has changed incredibly recently to look at the skillset. This is what school librarians have always done, the skill of research. We are now in a brilliant position to be able to go, well the skills that we have are the skills that we can teach your students, and what you've highlighted that you need at the moment. It's interesting times for a school librarian I think. Martine: It strikes me that the role of the school librarian has changed dramatically over the past sort of 20 years or so, but ultimately as you said, it comes down to research and helping students learn how to research properly. I guess it's not the sort of fundamentals of the role that's changed, it's where you're looking for the information has changed a little bit perhaps. Elizabeth: Oh absolutely. If you think about when we were back at school. Our research was probably the school library, but it was books. You could always copy and paste, but you'd actually have to hand write it. The chances of you being caught for doing that was quite unlikely unless the teacher was probably going down to the library to check the books that you were copying from. We live in a world now where information is really freely available and really easy to access. It's even easier to plagiarise but even easier to get caught. It's those skills, that skillset that has suddenly become very usable and shareable and people want them. It's a much wider world out there, and actually far more opportunities. Our skillset has had to adapt and change, but it has in a very exciting way, opened doors that I couldn't have imagined at the beginning of my career. Martine: It's a good time to be a school librarian, is what you're saying? Elizabeth: Absolutely, really exciting. Do you know, just the opportunity to share ideas on social media, talk to experts in our profession in a way that was just not possible before, has up-skilled all of us in a way that just wasn't possible. Having a personal learning network on social media has not only helped me to understand my role a bit more, but also helped me learn about things that I can then share with the students that I teach and the teachers that I work with. The worlds of research has really opened up in the last sort of few years and it is exciting times, yeah. I love it. Martine: It's really interesting to hear you talking about social media in that way as well, because I'm in huge agreement with you there, in that I get a massive amount of my CPD directly from Twitter because of all the links people share, and the Twitter chats that go on, and things like that. Technology is really exciting right now and it's great to hear about how the role of the school librarian has adapted to accommodate. Elizabeth: I think as well is that as part of learning and teaching research, I think it's important that we do include these technologies or these tools, because like you said, I too get a lot of my professional development from Twitter, but it's that digital literacy that is also around in school today that we're teaching. Actually if we can help students navigate resources like Twitter within the classroom, it then becomes less of a problem outside. Martine: Definitely. Elizabeth: So instead of us shying away from it, we need to be confident in using it ourselves as teachers to be able to then help the students navigate it. I think I was talking to somebody recently about the negativity, and the bullying, and the trolling that goes on, but actually if we had more people on social media that were brave enough to say, "Hey, that's not a nice thing to say." We drowned out the negatives with the positive then it would be a much better place to be. You can only learn those skills through usage. Actually, if we can learn to use it in a safer environment within the classroom then it would stand the students in better stead for the future I think. Martine: I'm in complete agreement with what you just said, and it almost leads onto a discussion about a topic I want to cover in a future podcast episode, which is this misconception that young people today are digital natives. Everyone seems to think, particularly amongst certain teachers I come across, that the kids today, they all know how to do anything online and they're very comfortable with technology. Yes, in terms of navigating an iPhone or some sort of smartphone, they can do that very easily, but they aren't particularly savvy when it comes to social media, and using technology and social media and things like that professionally. It's all about social. Is that something you've come across in your role at all? Elizabeth: Oh yeah, without a doubt. You know? Even to the extent of just good research, there's a lack of understanding amongst teachers that it is important that they check where their sources are coming from. The only way that that can happen is if we encourage teachers to insist on referencing. I know it sounds boring, do you know? I've had one teacher tell me that it stops the flow of the essay or the research - Martine: Really? Elizabeth: It spoils it, you know? For the understanding that actually where your information is coming from is important to the teacher makes the child then understand the importance for themselves. Once you learn how to reference, it doesn't take that long. If you collect your references as you go through, it is part and parcel of academic writing. Whether you like it or not, that's what we're doing at school, we are writing academically. Even the youngest of students, none of them are generally writing for pleasure. You can create the opportunity to write for pleasure alongside doing the research correctly and it should all just flow into it. You find that international baccalaureate students generally tend to be really good at their referencing because it's an essential part of the course. Teachers who teach GCSE and A Level, it's not. A lot of these students are spoon fed, and I get it, I do understand. Teachers are in a very difficult position that they are judged by their outcomes and teaching to the test and all of this, I get it. I do. But we're not doing our children any favours if we are not helping them to take responsibility for where their information's coming from. We talk about recently the fake news and you live in an internet bubble. I find that really interesting, it's something that I'm particularly interested in myself is that we go back to the social media question, is that we tend to follow the people who have the same ideas as us, share the same views, and reinforce what we believe to be true. That's a really dangerous position to put yourself into, that it's safe because you're not going to read anything that you disagree with, but actually, if we don't teach and encourage our students to actually look beyond that immediate understanding to get a more rounded view, then we are going to ... We're in a very scary position where we can be manipulated into believing that this is the only way for the world to work, or this religion is right, or that political party is correct. Actually, you can only get a full view of the world if you actually understand how you can actually access other sources of information that are going to give you a slightly different view. I find it, that to prevent students or not encourage students to actually go beyond that question into Google, we're opening a huge chasm that we might not ever be able to shut. Actually now is the time to take responsibility and start saying, "This is a serious situation and we as teachers and educators need to actually do something about it when we can," and we can do something about it, you know? Teach them to reference, understand plagiarism, understand the fact that you need to give credit for somebody else's work. All of this is about looking at how we behave online and how we gather our information for our own learning. It has to come and start in a school setting. Martine: The idea of living in an internet bubble, as you described it, is just absolutely terrifying. I mean if you don't ever have to challenge what you see, what you read, what you hear, how are you ever going to learn? It's very, very worrying. Elizabeth: Yeah, it is interesting because I think people forget. I think if you don't live in an information world where you're teaching people to find information, I think it's very easy to forget that ... I think we've had recently, sort of Facebook have tried to change it, but where they were feeding you the things that you want to find rather than what you chose to find. I think you need to be a little bit savvy about ... Or understanding that that is actually what goes on. Martine: Definitely. What you said about referencing and how if you do it as you go along, it's not difficult, that is so true. I'm a Google Certified Trainer, and so I use Google Docs for most academic writing activities with my learners, and it is so easy to reference in Google Docs. It really is straightforward. I shared a video on social a couple of days ago that showed how to do it in about 90 seconds. It was a demonstration that took that long, you know? It is easy, simple and straightforward. As long as you know how to do it, then I don't really understand why people wouldn't be doing it, particularly in Google Docs. Elizabeth: Well exactly. If you are a person who uses Word, there's a referencing tab in Word, which is equally as quick, do you know? When you think back to the dissertations we used to write and you'd spend three or four days putting in your references, literally if you're collecting them as you go along, it's a less than 10-second job to create your bibliography. Why would you not use that, you know? Martine: Exactly. Elizabeth: It is so simple these days. Martine: Talking about things being speedy, how can your school librarian save you time? This is a question on behalf of the teachers, how can your school librarian save you time? Elizabeth: That's an interesting question because I had a discussion with somebody the other day and the things that I thought teachers would understand was time-saving. Turns out to be not so. Martine: Right. Elizabeth H.: Let me explain. Schools' Library Service provides what we call project loans. Teachers can email us and say, "I'm doing Victorians next term with my year six students. I have three or four higher learners and I have about two that will need lower level books." We put together a nice little box, we deliver it to the school, which then lands in their library and they go and collect it and they start using it. That is time-saving. Martine: Yes, I would think so, yeah. Elizabeth: If you are a teacher who sends an email ... So this is what was pointed out to me, if you are a teacher that sends an email once a term and this box magically appears, you forget that actually, it takes time to curate those resources and put what you need into a box and issue it and get it out to you. There is a little bit of lack of understanding of what you are getting on the basic level from a school library, you know? Martine: Okay, yeah. Elizabeth: Obviously we're talking about the fact that we're Schools' Library Service and we have a centralized collection. If your school library itself has the resources that you need you could just ask your school librarian to do the same thing. I understand that there are people probably listening to your podcast that don't have a Schools' Library Service or do have a librarian in their library but had not ever thought to have that conversation. So please do. If you want resources for your classroom, then start with your school librarian or contact your Schools' Library Service and books will magically appear and save you time, because then you don't have to go and look for them. Martine: Which is fabulous. Elizabeth: It is. Other time-saving initiatives that we've looked at and started doing recently is helping teachers and classes connect with other students in classes across the world. The Guernsey curriculum is all about outside, and we're learning outside the classroom, and learning from experts beyond the walls of your classroom. A lot of teachers don't have time to find those connections and those collaborations, and it is one of the things that Schools' Library Service has worked hard at, at building up our contacts and opening the doors of the classroom. For instance, in the last few years, we have connected our students with students in India who were doing an Indian topic. They were able to talk to and ask questions of Indian students who are the same age as them. They were able to share the information about what Guernsey is like to those same students. It sort of puts a different perspective on what creating a good question looks like. For me as a librarian, my role is not only to connect these students, but it's also to make sure that the skillset is right, so going back to that information literacy role for this particular Indian collaboration we made sure that the children understood what made a good question. Them being able to ask those questions directly to somebody else changes your understanding of what makes a good question. What we found interesting was that some of the questions weren't so good and they got a very poor response or a poor answer. Actually, as the session went on you could see the children were changing the questions as they carried on. Their questioning got better, so it's about learning real ... What is it called? Real-world learning, and it does make a difference. Martine: What a fantastic learning experience for them. I bet there'll remember that for the rest of their lives, that session where they talked to kids in India. I mean that's great. Elizabeth: Yeah, and it's learning on all sorts of different levels. We had a class locally talking to experts on African penguins, and they were taken around a nature reserve via Skype. It was, again, so different from that experience of reading the information from a book or online, you know? We save teachers' time by creating and generating these connections and collaborations, and enabling them to have innovative lessons in a way that they wouldn't have done before, you know? I think for me our role has changed, you wouldn't automatically think that a school librarian is about collaboration, but anybody that you collaborate with is a learning opportunity, and librarians are about learning and finding information. If finding information is found via a person, then that's just as good as finding it in a book or online, do you know? It's all-encompassing. Martine: That's fantastic. I'm really starting to get a feel for how that role has developed. I'm certainly sensing from you the passion you have for sharing your experience of it. I'm also getting a real technology vibe from you too. I work very closely with our librarian at the College of Further Education and she's very, very tech savvy, and that's what we work closely on, technology for learning. I've always been amazed at how if you go for the kind of old, as we've identified, misconception of the school librarian ... I mean our librarian, Rachel, is the exact opposite of that. She's really techy, and she's always looking for the latest innovation to enhance learning. I've always been really impressed with that. I mean clearly with what you've been describing, you're a massive advocate for technology for learning as well, but how else do you work with teachers to enhance their understanding of technology for learning and sort of bring new tools to them and things like that? How do you work with teachers in that way? Elizabeth: Our big aim over the last couple of years is to make sure that we understand the tools because unless you understand the tools you can't then help and support teachers to use them. Through our connections online, so usually via Twitter, we have been listening and hearing about what other librarians have been using with their teachers. The latest tools that we have really used widely across the schools is Padlet and Flipgrid. Martine: I love both of those. Elizabeth: Just really useful tools. It's not about how the tool can engage the learner, it's about how it can enhance the teaching. The two together work well in partnership. It's not about providing a piece of innovation or tool that ticks the box that you've actually used technology, it's about how it's going to enhance your learning. Martine: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. Elizabeth: For one example, we run book groups in our schools, so the librarian goes along, sometimes it's part of a lesson, other times it's a book group that is run at a lunchtime. Usually what we try and do is get them to read the same book so that then there's a book discussion. I've got two examples of Padlet enhancing what we were doing, one in primary and one in secondary. In the primary setting we had an author visiting, so Caroline Lawrence, she writes The Roman Mysteries. She had come as one of our Book Week authors last year. Our book group then decided that they were going to read one of her books and I then approached her, because she had been here, to say, "Do you know our students are reading your book, would you mind talking to them about it?" After a bit of a discussion and agreement that she would, we decided that we were going to use Padlet as our platform. Now Padlet is, for those of you that don't know, is like a post-it board online. Basically, you click a plus button and you can add a comment. It also allows other people to comment on your post-it. What we'd agreed with this book ground was that we were going to write questions for Caroline and look back the next week and see what she responded. I happened to manage to get in touch with Caroline just on the day that we were going to be doing the Padlet and told her what time we were going to be on and sent her the link. She appeared during that Padlet session. Martine: That's so cool. Elizabeth: The students were typing the questions and she was responding real time. Martine: I love it. Well, you cannot imagine the excitement of these students. You know, we sometimes worry, don't we, that if you allow something to happen live, we're at risk of students being silly or something going badly wrong, but I do believe genuinely that if you give students the opportunity and you've talked to them about the fact that you're going online and everybody could see, they genuinely behave in a way that is suitable. It's a brilliant learning, there were some amazing questions from that Padlet that we couldn't have got had she not answered real time, because one question led to another, to another. She was brilliant, she responded to as many of those questions as she could. Initially, we had lots of, "You're here. Ooh, exciting." You know? That is part and parcel of expressing how you're feeling about it, not something that's bad because you've been set a task to ask a question. It's about monitoring it and allowing it to happen naturally. Martine: It's just so memorable, like the example earlier with the Indian students, those students will remember that forever. Elizabeth: Of course they will. Of course, they will. Martine: So good. Elizabeth: They have come back and they've wanted to read more Caroline Lawrence books. The impact of that session was not just the fact that they ended up creating brilliant questions, but they were also engaged enough to sort want to continue and read more, and that's what it's all about, reading for pleasure. Okay, so the second example is a book called Wonder that has had international acclaim over the last few months and has actually been made into a book. For those of you that don't know, it's a story about a little boy who has severe facial disfigurements and it's written from several perspectives throughout the book, so it's written from his own perspective, his sister's, his friend's. It's about bullying, friendship, it's about understanding, empathy. It's gone down really well across the schools. We had planned to read the book with our book group in one of our secondary schools. I have a librarian friend who lives in Arkansaw. He is a librarian in a secondary school, so I said that we were going to read this book, did he fancy running a book club on Padlet. We agreed that this would be good, we set up the Padlet, the students themselves discussed the book across Padlet. When I look at the understanding that these children had and their shared ideas, and the variation of voices, it just gives me a tingle when I look at it, you know? We've got children from Nebraska, we've got children from Arkansaw, we've got children from Guernsey all talking about understanding and the importance of empathy. It doesn't matter whether you're from America or from England, those messages are all the same and show the students how people aren't any different. There may be different cultures and different ways of living, but actually, our friendships and our understanding of each other is all very similar. If that's what sharing an online book group is all about, then let's do more of it. Martine: Absolutely. I mean that's just such a great example of how technology for learning is so much more than simply getting learners engaged. I think a lot of people think, like you said, "Oh, we've got to tick a box, we've got to use technology. We've been told we have to." That's kind of one level that I think some people go to. Then the next level is, "Oh well, you know they're always on their phone, so let's use them in sessions and that will engage them." But it is so much more than that. Elizabeth: It is, yeah. Martine: That's exactly what you've just described. I love Flipgrid by the way. Elizabeth: Yeah, me too. Martine: I used it with my adult learners quite recently, because I teach our initial teacher training program at the College of Further Education, and we have one little bit of research that we have to do that isn't terribly exciting, they have to research a couple of different pieces of legislation that affect the role of the teacher. It's really not that exciting. Normally I get them to do it, a written approach to it and so on. This time I allocated the laws and codes of practice and regulations out to various members of the group and I sent them away to do their research. Of course, they noted their sources, so very important. Elizabeth: Good, good. Martine: Essential, as one of them was doing the copyright law so ... So yeah, they went away and they researched and they recorded a 90-second summary video on our Flipgrid sharing what they'd found out. It was so good, it went so well. Normally when they come to do that part of the assignment when they do it on their own, it's very challenging for them because it's just not the exciting subject that they want to be writing about, they want to be writing about the fun stuff of teaching. They did such a great job of it and it was because of the Flipgrid approach to research that we did. They were all quite nervous about using it, interestingly. Elizabeth: Yeah, people don't like having themselves videoed do they? Martine: No. Elizabeth: Actually, that is a skill in itself. Martine: Oh yes. Elizabeth: Condensing what you want to say in 90 seconds. Martine: Exactly. Elizabeth: It's a bit like learning on Twitter, that you have to say it in 140 characters, although I think it's a bit more now isn't it? Martine: It's 280 now I think. Elizabeth: 280, yeah. Actually, those are interesting skills in themselves. If you are anything like me, I'm a bit of a waffler when I write, and actually being made to restrict myself means that you learn to make sure you take the important bits rather than the bits that aren't important. That's where it does help. We also used Flipgrid to, again, talk about ... Again, it was, Wonder was a great book for us. The students in America asked the students in Guernsey what five words could they use to describe the book. We got lots of videos where the students are literally sitting in front of the camera giving five words. The work that's gone into that is far more than those 25 seconds that it takes them to say the words because they've actually had to think about which five words they wanted to choose, and why they were important, and how that was going to sound when they recorded it. They worked really hard at finding those five words. If we had set them a topic where we had just asked them and they were just going to write them down, I don't think you would've got the same engagement, but because they were going to share those with the world, they were then very careful about which five they chose, you know? It does add that extra element, it does add the audience that the children don't have in a school setting very often. Martine: I think for Guernsey students this becomes particularly important because we are living on a very small island and our community isn't as multicultural as perhaps we would like it to be, so students aren't exposed to perhaps as much diversity as students in other parts of the world would be exposed to. By opening the world up to them via technology or social media or whatever, I think it can do nothing but add value. Elizabeth: I've got another example that I'd love to share is that we do a lot of Google Hangouts. There's a thing called Mystery Hangouts where the librarians work together to find a school that would like to connect. You then organise it with the teachers. The teachers know where the other school is, but the students aren't told. The game is that they have to ... They can only ask questions that have a yes or a no answer, and they have to find the other school before they are found. Martine: I love it. Elizabeth: We ran this with Saint Anne's in Alderney, a year 10 group. It was all very exciting. Just to put it in perspective, normally when I used to go to Saint Anne's as the school librarian, I was the school librarian, nobody took any notice of me whatsoever as I walked down the corridors. I went in, I did my job, I worked with the teachers. It was all very similar to what it normally was. This day that I arrived in Alderney there was a buzz about the school, the whole school had heard that this game was going to take place. Everybody wanted to know what was going on. I was a little bit scared because it was actually our first attempt and wasn't sure that everything was going to work, but it thankfully worked beautifully. The game itself gave them good communication skills, it gave them research skills because they had to look at maps and atlases, and think about the questions that they were asking. The big deal for me from that one session was at the end where they were asked to share some information about where they lived, and the American students were very used to doing this kind of thing. They've never done it internationally before, but they'd obviously done Mystery Hangouts with other states in the US. These students had written lists of information about where they lived. We hadn't prepared our students that way. I did worry at that moment where there were lots of arms crossing and there's nothing to tell you about Alderney here. I thought, "Oh dear," you know? "This is where it all falls flat." Until one American student asked the Alderney students what they did after school. Their response was very negative, but it was, "We just go to the beach." They were the perfect words because again it was Arkansaw, they are 13 hours away from any beach. Martine: Oh wow. Elizabeth: They were just so amazed that Alderney students had a beach on their doorstep. The opportunity to pick up the laptop and take the laptop to the window and show the Arkansaw students the beach just suddenly made the Alderney students understand that they had a place in the world. Understand that they had something worth sharing. Martine: And how lucky they are to live in such a beautiful place. Elizabeth: Absolutely. Absolutely. It was a pivotal moment in my understanding of why we do what we do. Martine: Wow. Elizabeth: If I do nothing else in my career, it was a turning point, it was this is why this is so important. We live on a small island, you're right, Alderney is even smaller, but there are children who live in villages, there are children who live in cities, and actually seeing how other children live and it's a way of learning, it has huge potential, doesn't it? It is just an opportunity for us to open the world to them without them having to leave their classrooms, and to share their understanding of their place in the world is something that's really important. The more I can do with that the better as far as I'm concerned. Martine: Brilliant. The working title for this episode and I think I've just decided I'm going to stick with it, is Why It's Time to Get to Know Your School Librarian, and there it is. That's why it's time to get to know your school librarian because your school librarian can help you make amazing learning happen. Thank you, Elizabeth for sharing all of the things you've shared in this episode. That's been fab. Where can people find you online? Elizabeth: Schools' Library Service, Guernsey Schools' Library Service Blog Elizabeth on Twitter Elizabeth's blog Martine: Thank you so much, Elizabeth, that was excellent. You are welcome back on the show anytime. Elizabeth: Thank you, I really enjoyed it.

Stand-up comedian and author Dave O'Neil talks to host Elizabeth Harris at his office at The Grandview Hotel, Fairfield, against a backdrop of motorcycles revving their engines, doors opening and closing, and phones ringing, about: His latest book, The Summer of '82, a tribute to post-VCE life in the 80s and the shenanigans of his youth How to get started as a stand-up comedian Tips for dealing with hecklers when you're performing His days performing in the band Captain Cocoa, the Devo "Energy Dome" train encounter, and how he feels about being recognized in public His upcoming TV show. Find out more about Dave's work at DaveONeil.com.au. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes or Spotify, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. Today I’m thrilled to introduce one of the funniest and most entertaining men I’ve ever had the pleasure to meet – Dave O’Neil. Dave: Gee, that’s a big introduction. I’ve met funnier. Elizabeth: There’s more Dave. Dave O’Neil has been in the business of comedy for 20 years, and is one of Australia’s most recognizable stand-up comics, having put in 15 Melbourne international comedy festivals and dozens of comedy clubs nationally. On screen you will have seen Dave as Team Captain in the ABC TV comedy quiz show Tractor Monkeys, as well as dishing out life advice in The Agony of Life, The Agony of Modern Manners, The Agony of The Mind, Can of Worms, plus messing about on Adam Hills In GorDave Street Tonight and Good News Week. He is probably most well-known for the honour of being the guest with the most appearances (over 50) on ABC TV’s ever popular Spicks & Specks. Dave O’Neil, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave: Welcome. Thank you. Lovely to be here. Pleasure to be called a writer, as opposed to a comedian. Elizabeth: Well, isn’t this your fifth book? Dave: Yeah yeah, two were kids’ books. My partner and I did them in Australia before we had kids. Elizabeth: When you had more time. Dave: We had more time, that’s right. And one’s called Lies That Parents Tell You, so I wouldn’t write that now. My daughter sits up in bed reading it and quotes it back to me. Elizabeth: How old is she? Dave: Ten. Yes, it’s tough. Elizabeth: I was at Kaz Cooke’s book launch about … Dave: On girl power? Yeah, she’s great. I’ve got to buy that book! Elizabeth: So Dave, you’ve been through so much in your career, but today I want to concentrate on your hilarious book, The Summer of ’82. Dave: Sure. Elizabeth: It’s a real feel-good book, and you cover some intense themes. Discipline. Masculinity. Sexuality. Mateship. Stalking. Dave: Stalking – that’s right. I followed a girl in Mildura. Back then it wasn’t known as “stalking”; it was known as “unrequited love”. Sexuality – there’s not much sexuality going on in there, I can tell you that. There’s a lack of activity in that department, that’s for sure. Elizabeth: You were talking about how you were giving advice to 17-year-old virgins. Dave: That’s right. A little girl at school would ask me for romance advice. I was like, that’s not who you go to for romance advice. You see, I was a nice guy, so the girls talked to me. Elizabeth: We like nice guys. So getting back to this book: What inspired you to write it, and what’s your favourite memory from summer? Dave: I always wanted to write a memoir from the 80s, and I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. I saw that TV show This is England on SBS, about the young guys growing up in the Housing Commission area, and I thought I’ve got to write something like that, because that’s in my era. But their show ended with incest and murder, whereas that never happened to me, so I thought why not write a more positive recollection of that time. So I wrote a few chapters and put it aside. And then my son started high school, and so you go to the local high school and it brought back all these memories from when I was in high school. Elizabeth: At Mitcham High? Dave: I went to Mitcham High, yeah. Back then we had a choice of the tech or the high school, and if you were Catholic, you went to Catholic school. We weren’t Catholic. So now, and I’m talking about the government schools, not the private schools – you can choose from 3 or 4 around here, so you go to this school or that school, and they’re all the same basically. They haven’t changed much since 1982. They look the same. You’ve got the oval, the canteen, big classrooms, kids sitting around, so they haven’t changed at all, so I thought I should write that book again. It brought back all those memories, and so my son started school, and that’s why I did it. That’s why. Elizabeth: Now we know. Dave: It’s just something to do. As comedians, we’ve got to have something to do, apart from studio gigs. Elizabeth: That’s good. So talking a bit about your children, you mentioned your parents Kev and Joyce – “Joyce the Voice”. Dave: Yep, “Joyce the Voice”. Elizabeth: And what I’m wondering now is, are you parenting your children differently from how you were parented then? Dave: Definitely, definitely. We got hit for a start. Elizabeth: What with? Dave: A belt. So Kev would get very angry – it’s in the book – he would get very angry, come running in in a singlet, trying to hide his nether regions, swinging a belt above his head, and whack us in the ... Elizabeth: My dad had a strap up on the fridge. I think we had a very similar upbringing. Dave: I don’t hit my children, but obviously parenting your kids back then was a bit easier, because you’d just say “I’ll hit you”, and that was a full stop to the conversation, whereas all I can do is yell at them. Elizabeth: How about cracking some jokes – does that work? Dave:  Yeah, crack some jokes, try and alleviate the situation, but my daughter in particular doesn’t like that. Elizabeth: Is that because she’s heard them all before? Dave: Yeah, she’s heard them all before. “It’s not funny Dad!” My mum and dad were pretty involved with us. My dad was a Scout leader and staff, so we spent a fair bit of time with him. He was a good role model, and Joyce was introvertly involved in our lives. But he’s even more involved these days – at school pickup and all that. There’s a lot more dads involved now. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic, so you’ve got that support as well. When we met at your book launch, you told me that you only know comedians. Dave: It’s true. I don’t know any writers really. Elizabeth: Well, you know me. Dave: I know you. And I know Arnold ... who lives around here, who wrote Scheherezade Cafe. He's famous! (Ed: Cafe Scheherazade by Arnold Zable) Elizabeth: Maybe you can introduce me to Arnold. Is that like Arnold on Happy Days? Dave: (Laughs) He’s had a book out called Fido – the Box of the Fido. Elizabeth: I can’t believe I made Dave O’Neil laugh. Dave:  So I see him on the street here, in Fairfield, and I talk to him about writing and stuff. Elizabeth: That brings me to something about fame. You’re a very famous star. Dave: Not that famous. Elizabeth: Well, we think you are. So, what we want to know is, do you like being recognized when you’re out and about, or does fame have a downside? Dave: No, my level of fame is pretty small, so people like Dave Hughes or Glenn Robbins, or Carl Barron for instance – they can get hassled all the time. Elizabeth: Well, in my network, I have a number of people who would love to meet you. Dave: Really? Well, tell ’em I’m around. Elizabeth: And they’re going to be really disappointed that here we are, at the Grandview in Fairfield – it’s a stunning place, gorgeous building, lovely people. Dave: They’re nice people here. Elizabeth: Michael? Dave:  Michael and Noah, yep. Elizabeth: Jenny? Dave: Michael, Noah and Jenny – they’re all the higher level management here. Elizabeth: They are, and they made me feel very, very welcome. Made me a coffee. Smiled and when I offered to pay, wouldn’t take my money. It’s fantastic! Dave: Ah that’s good. I didn’t tell them – you tell someone and they pass it on. It’s all on my tab, probably. My level of fame is not that high. Occasionally when you go interstate – the more you go interstate like Queensland – people get excited about you, but certainly around Fairfield Road, no one cares about you. Elizabeth: Well, they could have chimed some…”Captain Cocoa”… Dave:  What, with the band? That’s right. Well when the band broke up, someone did say, “How is Dave O’Neil going to be famous now?” Ambition for fame… Elizabeth: Let’s stop right there. Was it to meet girls? Dave: Probably. Definitely not music. We went and saw bands, and just thought: Why can’t we be in a band? And the guy at high school was … famous 80s band … “hands up in the air”…I didn’t see it. And so we thought, that’s the way to meet girls, get up on stage. Elizabeth: Did it work? Dave: Well, I met Sonia, who…but anyway, definitely does work. Being in a band definitely does give you the attention you want as a teenager. We used to play at Catholic girls’ schools …dances …You didn’t have to be good; we weren’t good musicians. Elizabeth: I want to talk about Sonia. You did invest a lot of time and you write about that in your great book. Then you say you end up having a better relationship with her younger brother. Dave:  Well, that’s right. What happened was that I hitchhiked to Mildura to see her on New Year’s Eve to surprise her. And she was surprised, particularly her dad. And they gave me a lift to the caravan park where I stayed for New Year’s Eve. And the younger brother – I can’t remember his name – he was a great kid, and so we got on really well. He’s probably a year, two years younger than me. Was it Shane – Shane? So we ended up hanging out together. Elizabeth: Was it Malcolm? Dave:  Malcolm, that’s right. And we got on really well, whereas Sonia and me didn’t get on well. Elizabeth: Well, that might have something to do with the boyfriend too. Dave: She had a boyfriend who I also got on well with. Probably married, those guys. So, yeah, good times. Elizabeth: So getting back to that, I just want to know, for all those young men who think they’ll never get a date, much less have a child: you’ve had three, haven’t you? Dave: Yes. Elizabeth: What dating advice can you offer? Dave:  Dating advice? That’s a good one. It’s been so long since I’ve gone on a date…not since the 80s. Surprise question – dating advice. Ask someone out – you know a good thing is to ask someone out for a drink or for something during the day. That’s what I read on some dating websites. Ask someone out during the day where there’s no pressure. At night I think there’s a fair bit of pressure. I reckon ask them out for a drink during the day or late afternoon. Elizabeth: What about a play date? Dave: Well, if you’re parents, definitely. Elizabeth: That seems to work well. Dave: Yeah, I think in our age group - I Dave’t know how old you are, but I’m middle-aged – there’s definitely a bit of that going on with divorce and separated parents. And fair enough. Elizabeth: And there’s a really good place to go in St Kilda called St Kilda Adventure Playground. Dave: Oh, I’ve never been there! Elizabeth: It’s great. Dave: That’s great. Elizabeth: And there’s a fellow who runs it – he’s a youth worker but he’s also a musician. Adrian Thomas. Check him out – he’s fantastic. So what do you like to do in your spare time? Dave: I like to watch TV. Elizabeth: Yourself perhaps? Dave: Not myself. I don’t like watching myself. I did a spot on one of those comedy galas this year. I hadn’t seen it; I watched it, I thought it was pretty good. I’m pretty happy … I was judge of myself. Elizabeth: Of course it’s good. Dave: What happened is…so I spend a lot of time with 3 children. Once I get them to bed at night, or if I’m home during the day, I do like to watch a bit of TV. And I watch a mixture of – I watch a few movies but more serious these days. There’s a mixture of comedies and drama. I do like a good drama, you know like Vikings or something like that. Elizabeth: I’m a fan of Doc Martin myself because I’m a nurse. Dave: Oh ya Doc Martin. Is he Aspergers? Yeah, must be Aspergers. I’ve been watching … the comedy show … it’s quite funny … so I watch that, get some laughs out of that. What else have I been taping…oh yeah…West World on Foxtel. Elizabeth: Oh yes. More fun to watch yourself, you know. Dave: Watch yourself? Yeah, no thanks. Elizabeth: What I’d love you to do is share an excerpt from your great book. Dave: Sure. Do you want me to read it to you or tell you it? Elizabeth: Whatever works for you. Dave: I’ll tell you a story. This is the story of The Bomb, the laying of The Bomb. Basically, what happened was we finished school and we went home. No, we went and registered for the dole, and then we went home. Elizabeth: As we all did. Dave: And my kids said to me, “How did you know how to make bombs before the internet?” Well, we didn’t need the internet. We had this chap called Brian every night, 6 o’clock. He used to tell us everything we needed to know on the Channel 9 news every night. Elizabeth: Can you sing the song? Dave: (Sings) “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so I know everything I need to know, cos Brian told me so.” Elizabeth: Great tone. Dave: Great tone, yeah, I wasn’t just a comedian; I was a singer. So you can imagine these four teenage boys and Mum and Dad, and we couldn’t see the TV – Dad was the only one who could see the TV – we could hear it. He positioned himself in the chair that sits there. So we could hear it. We heard this Brian guy say: “Two boys were arrested today in suburban Adelaide for making homemade bombs.” We were like, oh my God, you could hear a pin drop in the house. Then he told us how to make it, by using chlorine and brake fuel. We were looking at each other, like, we’ve got chlorine – we’ve got a pool – and we’ve got brake fluid; Dad’s a Trades teacher. “So can we please be excused from the table, Dad?” Within 10 minutes we were making bombs. So the next day we got my mates together and we made – we decided to up the ante and make some really big bombs. And we made this great bomb, but we didn’t want to throw it; we were gutless like any terrorist organization, so we recruited younger, stupider people like Phil, who lived in the house backing here on the paddock. He stuck his head over and said, “What are yous guys doing?” So we got him to throw the bomb, and he threw it. And it bounced – boom, boom – and it sat there, and then it went BANG! Real loud explosion, the biggest one we’d made. It showered us with dirt, and we were all laughing, and the neighbours came out. An old lady said, “It shook the foundations of my chook shed!” And we’re like “It works!” And then the cops turned up. We heard it. The car screeched up, the doors go, a cop pulls out, and we recognized him – he went to our high school, he was one of my Dad’s Scouts from his Scout trips – obviously he was in his twenties now. Darren, his name was. And he gets out, and it was the easiest case he’d ever solved. He looked at the bomb, then he looked at our house, and he was like “Oh yeah, case solved.” And then Dad had rocked up. Dad thought Darren had just dropped in to see his former Scout leader, and Dad goes up to him and goes, “G’day Darren, how are you?” And Darren goes, “Ah, this is no social visit Kevin. Do you recognize these containers?” “Yeah, they are my sons’, sitting in the garage.” And we were like, “Oh no…” So we went to the police station. And the bomb expert from India was on the site, and he couldn’t work out what was in the bombs. And he said, “What’s in the bombs?” “Chlorine and brake fluid.” And he’s like “How’d you know how to do that?” And we went, “Brian told me.” “RIGHT, WHO’S BRIAN?!” So we sang: “Brian told me, Brian told me, Brian told me so”. I love that story. Elizabeth: Such a great tune, isn’t it. Dave: Yeah, it’s a great tune, and they used it in Sydney too, you know. Brian Henderson. Value for money. That’s in the book – lots of detail about the 70s and 80s in The Summer of ’82. Elizabeth: See, that crime history continued because being from a family of four boys … your brother Mark captured my attention. Dave:  Yeah Mark’s quite a character in the book. That’s what my mum said the other day: “You were the worst, and now you’re the best.” He’s very good with Mum and Dad. Elizabeth:  He was a slow starter. Dave: He was a slow starter, classic middle child out of four boys, and he was very naughty. Got in trouble a lot with the police and he got kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab. He was meant to be getting changed for Oklahoma I think it was, and he set fire to the lab, and got kicked out. Elizabeth: See, I’d actually like to read this – I know you don’t like to, but I do. Dave:  Go on. Elizabeth: Page 88 – you write: “We’re talking about a kid who’s kicked out of school for setting fire to the chemistry lab while he was meant to be getting changed for his part in the school musical. Hmm, there’s young Mark in the lab where he’s supposed to be putting on his farmer’s overalls to sing in Oklahoma. Wait! The chemicals are too tempting, so it’s time for a quick experiment. Va-voom! Up in flames the lab goes.” See, I have a brother who is an illustrator. His name is Bernie Harris, and he’s going to illustrate my second children’s book which will be out next year. But he’s similar to Mark in that he used to enjoy lighting the Bunsen burners in the chemistry lab. Dave:  Ah yeah, they’ve still got Bunsen burners too. Yeah, Mark was very naughty. Elizabeth: So the difference between our brothers was that he wasn’t caught. Dave:  Yeah, right, Mark was caught. Elizabeth: But you had your own way of managing Mark when your parents were away. Do you call it “MYOB Night” or “M.Y.O.B. Night”? Dave: Oh. Make-Your-Own? Make-Your-Own. Elizabeth: You were very inventive Dave, and strategic in managing your brother. Dave: Yeah, he was put in charge of us when Mum and Dad went on holidays, and at that stage he was an apprentice at Telstra. And so he would invite his mates over for a card night. And I was working in a factory and I had to get up early. And he was like … Elizabeth: You get Endangerment, don’t you? Dave: Yeah, I was working in a factory and you look at the pay packet and we got Heat Allowance and Dust Allowance. It wasn’t a great job but it was certainly a wakeup call. If I’d done the job at the start of Year 12, I probably would have studied more, I think. Should have done that. But Mark … Elizabeth: There was something about connectors and fuses, I think. Dave: Ah yeah. He invited his mates over for cards and they were having this big party, and I pulled the fuse out of the fuse box, threw it out on the lawn, and went back to bed. And the music went (mimics sound of music dying out suddenly)… And he blamed the neighbor of course. So I think when he read the book, he found out it was me. Elizabeth: It was brilliant. So that job, crawling through those … crawling through those tunnels. And the hot dog … Dave: Hot dog shop. Elizabeth: With Cindy. Dave: With Cindy. So I got a job in a hot dog shop: Alecto Hot Dogs on Toorak Road. People from Melbourne may remember. Elizabeth: Sorry I don’t remember. Dave: You don’t remember Alecto Hot Dogs ’92? Yum. So I worked at Alecto Hot Dogs with a girl named Cindy, whom I eventually went out with. She was dressed up like Boy George or Hazie Fantazie and she had all these outrageous outfits. Turned out she was from Mitcham where I lived; I’d just never met her. She was a Catholic and I was Protestant. Different sides of the railway track. So that was very exciting. But I eventually got sacked from the hot dog shop because the owner accused me of stealing the rolls and selling them to an opposition shop, when in fact I was just eating them. Elizabeth: Was there proof of that? Dave: Yeah, I was eating them. But then my twin brother was also working there – I have a twin – and he got a full-time job so I just took his job, the part-time job, and kept turning up as him. Elizabeth: Are you identical? Dave: Yeah. And they’d say “Didn’t I sack you?” And I’d say “No, that’s my brother.” He’d probably be 20 kilos lighter than me now. He lives in Switzerland; he works for Red Cross. He’s the good twin; I’m the bad twin. He’s doing good stuff. Elizabeth: The ability to make people laugh is such a gift, and not everybody can do it. Dave: Not everybody can do it. It takes practice. Eizabeth: So tell me about that. Dave: Making people laugh? When I was at school, I was pretty funny, and when I was at uni and stuff, a few girls said “You should be a stand-up comedian – you’re quite funny.” Now when you’re in your twenties and girls say that, that’s a call actually. Elizabeth: Means something, doesn’t it. Dave: Yeah it’s a call actually. You should do it. And so I always wanted to do it; I didn’t know it was a job. I had no idea, especially in the 70s – comedy wasn’t prevalent, it was fringe. There are a few comedy clubs that have started, but maybe one work function with comedians. We’ve seen comedians on Scout camps; we used to have comedians turn up to do gigs on Scout camps. So it was definitely something I wanted to do; I just didn’t know how to do it. I thought it was something too out of my reach, but turned out anyone could do it, if you wanted. Elizabeth: For those that want to launch their comedic careers, is it really the hard slog of gigs and being heckled? And if so, what’s the best way of dealing with the heckling? Dave: Well I don’t get heckled much anymore, but certainly when you start out, and you’ve got to do a lot of bad gigs – they call them “Open Mic Nights “. Anyone can get up and do it – and if you have an inkling, there’s plenty of them around now, more so than when I started. I would advise people to go and have a look first, and then approach the person running the night and ask to go on the next week and just jump up – write some stuff down and jump up and do it. The hecklers? Best thing to do with hecklers: repeat what they say. So they say: “You’re a fat idiot.” And you say “What did you say, mate? I’m a fat idiot?” Which lets everyone in the room hear what they say. Because a lot of hecklers do it so no one else can hear what they say, especially in a big room. “You’re a blah-blah.” “Oh really, mate.” And so you repeat what they say, and then you think of something really quick to say back. It doesn’t even have to be that funny; it just has to be quick. I can’t think of any Elizabeth: On the front cover of this great book, you are pictured wearing a Devo Energy Dome, Dave. Can you explain the impact it had in your life, and what the proclamation “Are We Not Men?” means? Dave: “We are Devo”. I don’t know what it means – just something they say in one of their songs – album name. Elizabeth:What it means more so on the train? Dave: Oh on the train! We went and saw Devo. They had a 9-day tour; they had a few No. 1 hits in Australia. Elizabeth: What were they? Dave:  “Whip It”. “Girl U Want”. Elizabeth: You’re not going to sing to me. Dave:  No. “Whip It cracked that whip…one sat on the greenhouse tree…” Elizabeth: Did you bring your guitar? Dave: No. I play the bass. Anyway, so we went and watched Devo. It was a great night and we were all dressed up in our best; we were slightly alternative kids. Elizabeth: Does that mean you used to wear makeup? Dave: No, I didn’t wear makeup, but I had makeup on that night because I’d been rehearsing for The Game Show, which is a TV show. They’re really cool people…and so we dressed up in our best trendy gear: nice jeans and lemon vintage jumpers. Elizabeth: Lemon. Dave: Lemon vintage; might have had a pink one if someone was in a brave mood. Then we had these homemade Devo hats, these red flower pots Mum had made. Elizabeth: Joyce made them! Dave:  Joyce made them. Crafty. And so we were on the train. We were on a high, singing these Devo songs. Unfortunately for us, The Angels and Rose Tattoo were playing the Myer Music Bowl that night, and all their fans had gone on to Richmond, so this was a classic case of “last train out”. Elizabeth: For those that weren’t kids in the 80s, tell me about The Angels and Rose Tattoo and Henry Anderson. Dave: Yeah, bald-headed guy, tattoos. They’re basically hard rock; they’re a great band. They have fans who are hardcore bogans, so guys from the outer suburbs in mullets, stretch jeans, moccasins – tough guys. Elizabeth: What sort of suburb are we talking about? Dave:  We’re talking about Moroolbark, Lilydale, Ringwood. I grew up in Mitcham – there are plenty of them in Mitcham, so they would get on the train and they would look at us and be like, “What the … who are these guys?” And so we were like their enemy. And so one of them came over and he didn’t know where to start, so he started at the shoes. “Where did you get your shoes from?” And I’m like “The shoe shop.” And he’s like “No, you got them from the op shop.” Like that was an insult. I wanted to ask “Where did you get your language from? Your nan’s wardrobe?” But I didn’t say that. I was hoping my Energy Dome would transform itself and he would get picked up and thrown out of the window. Elizabeth: But it didn’t work. Dave:  It didn’t work. And he’s like “Do you have makeup on?” And I went “Why would I have makeup on?” I did have makeup on. So I had come from The Game Show rehearsal and I did have foundation and lipstick on, and I had forgotten to take it off. And he goes “I’m going to bash you!” And at that point in the book – when I do it live, it’s different – … came through the carriage. He was the tough guy from high school – he’s now a lawyer – and he came through the carriage, and he was a big Greek guy, and he was a big Devo fan so we got on very well. And he was like “What are you…?” and he pushes this guy aside – “What are you doing to him?” And then these guys “Yeah, nah, nah…” and then we pull up at the station. They pull the door open and he fell out on the wrong side of the track - the tough guy. Classic tough guy move – they pull the door when they’re not meant to, and then jump out. He jumped out on the wrong side of the tracks and fell on the tracks so all his mates laughed: “Yer, Gary!” Elizabeth: Oh, his name was Gary. Dave:  Yeah, Gary, classic name. And then everyone was like “Are we not men?” And then we were like “Yeah, we are Devo!” and we were chanting on the train. Good times. Elizabeth: Well, the whole book’s great, cause I’ve read it cover to cover. Dave:  Oh, good on you. You’re the only one. Elizabeth: No, I’m sure many, many people will be reading it, especially after our podcast goes live. Dave: Cool. Elizabeth: No, truly. What’s your next project, Dave? Dave:  I’ve written a TV show that I’m going to film soon. I’m just doing a pilot though; it’s based on my life as a stand-up and dad, so we’re going to film it soon, in December. Elizabeth: Can you talk about the people involved in it? Dave:  Oh yes of course, it’s based on my life as a comic, so I play myself. Glenn Robbins is in the first episode - he plays himself, because I’m always trying to get him to do charity gigs. He plays himself. Brendan Fevola - he plays himself. Well, it’s all based on an incident where I did a football club gig 15 years ago, where I insulted … I didn’t know Lance Whitnall - Carlton legend – came from that club – that was his original … and his mum was there when I made it. So I’m using Brendan Fevola in this. I’m too scared to ring Lance Whitnall, let’s be honest. So I know Brendan Fevola and I rang him, and he’s like “Yeah, yeah, no worries!” So that’s going to be out next year. I’m also working on a comic novel – I’ve written a chapter of a comic novel. I had no plans to do it at all, but I got this idea, so I started writing it, and I think it’s pretty funny. Elizabeth:  Of course it’s funny – it’s you. What else would it be? Dave:  And again it’s a satire based on the entertainment industry. Elizabeth:  That would be interesting, and funny. Dave:  I’ve got to change everyone’s name. Elizabeth: Are these people going to be recognizable? Dave:  Yes. Elizabeth: Of course they are. (Laughter) Dave:   There’s an amalgamation of people in there – part me, and other people, you know. Elizabeth:  Composite characters. Dave: Composite characters, so you don’t get sued. Elizabeth: So do you have a website or blog where my listeners can find out more about your work? Dave: Yes. Just go to my Facebook page. I update my Facebook page a lot. It’s “Dave O’Neil”. But if you just go to my website – dave-o-neil-dot-com-dot-au - there’s a link to my Facebook page. I don’t update my website that much, but I do update Facebook a lot because it’s so easy. I’ve got a public page, like a fan page. I don’t spend any time on my personal page at all. Elizabeth: So Dave, this is a signature question I ask all my guests because of my book, Chantelle’s Wish: What do you wish for, for the world … Dave:  World peace. Elizabeth:  … and most importantly, for yourself? We’ll start with you. Dave:  For the world? Well, as Rodney King once said, why can’t we all just get along? Elizabeth: Good point. Dave: That’ll be good, if everyone got along. I don’t see wars stopping, but if we just looked after the – I saw this great documentary about astronauts, and this astronaut, when he was up in space, he looked at the earth and he said, “It’s like an oasis, and we’re killing it.” So, interesting from an astronaut, ‘cause they’re like military guys, you know what I mean? So if we could look after the planet, that would be good, but I don’t know what I can do, you know. I do the occasional benefit. Elizabeth: I was going to say you mentioned fundraising; let’s talk about that. Dave: More of my benefits are for schools - local schools and kinders, that’s what I do, just because I’m in that world. Elizabeth:  They must love that, though. That really helps them. Dave:  I do benefits, and I’ll tell you what, if the benefit’s no good, I just get up on stage and I say: ‘I’m here to support the cause. See you later!” Some of the people have benefits in bars, and people are talking and not listening, and I think, “What’s the point?” Elizabeth: Well, I’d like to invite you to help us out. Pat Guest – he’s a children’s author, and he has a son, Noah, who has Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy, and we are creating an event where Rosalie Ham, author of The Dressmaker, will be there. Dave:  Oh wow. Elizabeth: She’s got a book out called There Should Be More Dancing. Aric Yegudkin and his wife Masha will be dancing, so he would like to do a bit of … Dave:  Sure. Elizabeth:  And all the donations will go to Duchenne’s Muscular Dystrophy to help those kids, because unfortunately that is terminal. Dave: Alright. Elizabeth: And I’ve nursed a couple of those children, so it’s … Dave: Full on. Elizabeth: It is full on. Dave: Yeah, I can help with that. Elizabeth: Thank you. So thank you Dave O’Neil. Dave:  Thank you for having me. Elizabeth:  It’s been an absolute delight. Dave O’Neil, thank you very much for guesting on Writers’ Tête-à-Tête with Elizabeth Harris. Dave:  Thank you. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Patrick Guest is an Australian children's author, Olympic physiotherapist, and father of three. He is most noted for his children's books That's What Wings Are For - dedicated to children with Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, and their parents, and The Ricker Racker Club, written for his boys when their baby sister joined the family. Find out more about Patrick's work at PatrickGuest.com.au. What you'll learn: 1. What Patrick's first career was, and why he gave it up for writing.2. The true story that inspired Patrick to write That's What Wings Are For.3. How The Ricker Racker Club is being used to touch and inspire school children in Melbourne, Australia. 4. What success means to him. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects authors, songwriters and poets with a global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-calibre guests, I invite you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce children’s author Patrick Guest (PG) – father of three, Olympic physiotherapist, children’s author. Patrick Guest – born into an ever loving, ever growing family, 7 siblings, in the beachside suburb of Seaford, Melbourne, Australia. Patrick was blessed with all the things that make a childhood magical – plenty of family, friends and freedom to explore this wonderful world. An assortment of careers along the way – cobbler, elephant washer, failed accountant, anatomy demonstrator at Monash Uni, national team physio for Mozambique. Little wonder he’s been dubbed the Forrest Gump of Frankston. Adventures and stories seem to follow him around and now he’s writing them down. 5 books, (signed with a little hair) in the past 2 years, many more in the pipeline. Patrick Guest, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Patrick: Great to be here, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Great to have you here, Patrick, on this lovely sunny day in Melbourne, believe it or not, we’ve got the sun. Patrick, we recently discovered we attended the same secondary college.  Patrick: We did. Elizabeth: I had to smile when I read you initially became an accountant. Please tell my listeners about that transgression - and how you escaped. Patrick: Ah, the transgression. Let’s start with that. Look. Fear, insecurity, there was a recession kicking in. But really I think, as a 17-year-old, having to work out what subjects to choose, I didn’t know how to make that decision at 17. Elizabeth: So you did Economics … is that right? Patrick: Economics, Accounting, Legal Studies, Maths. I was really probably inspired at that time by my favourite TV show, Family Ties – Michael J. Fox. Elizabeth: Wasn’t he great? He’s great. Still. Patrick: At the time, I think back now – what a dork he was – it probably says a lot about what a dork I was and still am. I thought he was cool. Elizabeth: He was funny, and you’re funny. Patrick: He was cool, and I thought “Who do I want to be like?”, and I thought “Michael J. Fox”. I went down the corporate path, which was a terrible decision. I don’t regret it – I made some friends for life, and I realized early on that money doesn’t make you happy. Elizabeth: It’s such an important lesson at that age, isn’t it, cause many people learn that quite late, if at all. Patrick: Yeah, so that’s something that has stayed with me, and I’m really grateful. Elizabeth: Was there a pivotal moment when you realized “This accounting thing is just not me”? Was there an incident? Patrick: There was. Elizabeth: Can you share that, or is that private? Patrick: No, no, let’s share this. It’s all about sharing in this session. So I’m walking down Flinders St Station, and I’m walking down in my suit and tie, down the ramp… Elizabeth: How old were you at the time? Patrick: It would have been in my first year out of graduation, maybe 22 or something. 21, 22. Walking down the ramp, with cattle class, just walking down, we were all off to work. Against the flow, this lady came through the crowd and just gently put her hand on me and said, “Smile!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) I promise you it wasn’t me. Patrick: She just said “Smile” and I’m walking down – I must have looked so miserable. Elizabeth: Was she an angel or a real person? Patrick: I don’t know. But I hear where you’re coming from there, because from that moment – and I blame Banjo Patterson – and maybe my dad for putting me onto Banjo. Elizabeth: Why? It’s good to blame other people, isn’t it? Patrick: My favourite Australian poem would be The Great Clancy of the Great Overflow… Elizabeth: Oh wonderful. Patrick: …And where Banjo writes: And the hurrying people daunt me, and their pallid faces haunt me   As they shoulder one another in their rush and nervous haste, With their eager eyes and greedy, and their stunted forms and weedy,    For townsfolk have no time to grow, they have no time to waste.   So that poem was just ringing in my ears as I was off to the office sitting there, and from that moment I had come to the end of my fancy – I had a lot to change with Clancy. But I doubt he’d suit the office, Clancy of the Overflow. And for someone who had had that instilled in him, the spirit of adventure at a very young age, and parents – wonderful parents that had fostered that– and here I am in this shoebox, little partitioned office thing, and it just wasn’t for me. Elizabeth: Soul-destroying. Patrick: Soul-destroying. For some people it isn’t, and some of my best friends have continued along that path, and it’s a great path for them, but for me it wasn’t. Elizabeth: We need everybody, don’t we, the array of professions and tradespeople, everybody to do their bit. But you had much more important things in store, Patrick. Which brings me to – our school was really quite traditional in lots of ways, being a Catholic coed college, with all the gender bias that goes with that. And I remember going back to Economics, and I remember being one of the few girls in Chemistry and Economics, because it was always the boys who were going to be the accountants, and the girls were going to be teachers or nurses. And in fact I did go on to be a nurse, but I was very happy to do that. So to me in our school, there was a real gender bias. And you address this in your fantastic book, The Ricker Racker Club. Can you tell us more about this great book please? Patrick: The Ricker Racker Club is based on a real club, invented by real people: my two boys, Noah and Reuben. So Noah and Reuben were roughly 4 and 3 at the time when the Ricker Racker Club was formed. And there was one hard and fast rule: No Girls. (Laughter) There were a few other rules: do something incredibly brave, do something incredibly kind, but the real rock-solid rule was No Girls. And then what happened… Elizabeth: I’m sure that’s changed now. Patrick: …They had themselves a sister, little Gracie. Gracie was born, and really the story of The Ricker Racker Club is what happened next after Gracie. Now Gracie is perfectly named. She is pure grace, she is pure joy. She does have an intellectual disability, and her capacity for joy is extraordinary. And she would – as happens in the book – walk up to the wolf next door and give the wolf a big hug. Her courage, her kindness, her unique joy, won the boys over very quickly. They won us all over, and the story sprung from there. Really, it’s a celebration of the joys of being a kid, and the innocence of these rules. They’re not coming from a nasty place, these rules – just boys being boys. But then, just the power of kindness, if there’s one thing that runs through all my books, it’s the power of kindness… Elizabeth: Yes, definitely. Patrick: …to change hearts. So that’s how that happened. And really The Ricker Racker Club is about a father saying to his two sons, “Be good to your sister.” Elizabeth: And you do it so well, Patrick. Patrick: And so it’s done really well. Elizabeth: When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Patrick: From the moment I could write. So I started very young. I do remember a series, ‘Powerful Patrick’. And I must have been about 5 or 6. I was doing the pictures back then and I was stapling them together, making these little books. And I’m sure Mum and Dad delighted in them. But I’m not sure anyone else did. Elizabeth: Have you still got them? Patrick: I haven’t been able to find them. Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: I hope I can find them one day. Mum was always a little bit of a hoarder, so it’ll be somewhere in the house. They’re still in the same place I grew up in, so they’ll be somewhere in that house. So I’ve been a natural storyteller my whole life. The vehicle for that telling a story was just verbal stories and emails and love letters to Lisa my wife … I’ve always found a way to put things on paper. But certainly through the barren accounting years, then really trying to work out where my lane was that had been lying dormant, and then the birth of Noah – my first son, Noah – came a flood of stories and the desire to get these things down on paper. The rest is history. Elizabeth: What was it particularly about that event - the birth of Noah – that opened the floodgates, so to speak? Patrick: Well the birth itself…even before the birth I was starting to work on a book. But it’s, I think it’s just this natural, just as we have a desire to breathe, have food and water, a desire to be heard and understood, and then as a parent, it’s just this innate desire to share stories and to bond through stories. Elizabeth: Legacy. Patrick: Legacy. What my dad did was the same with me. My grandfather – I vividly remember my grandfather declaring over me that “You’re going to be an author one day.” Elizabeth: Oh wow. Did he write? Patrick: My grandfather, no. It was more my grandmother – she was a gifted storyteller. She kissed the Blarney Stone a few times, Ma, and... So it’s flowed through, that Blarney Stone – the kissing of the Blarney Stone gift has been passed through, through Grandmother to my dad. Elizabeth: We have a similar heritage then. Patrick There you go. And I can see it in my kids as well. Noah and Reuben, they love telling stories and they love hearing stories. So it’s been passed on for sure. Elizabeth: That’s fantastic. Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly, how to keep going? Patrick: How to get started… I can only speak, maybe quote Oscar Wilde: “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” So I can only speak from the authority of my own experience. I don’t have a technique or a tactic or a ritual that I go through. I pray. I pray, and one thing that I’ll say to people when asked this question – again I don’t want to get too preachy here – but if you want to get creative, it helps to get in touch with your Creator. That’s all I can say. That might be a bit controversial but for some ears, but that’s what works for me. I don’t get on my knees and say “God, give me another book!” Elizabeth: “Give me a bestseller or a …” Patrick: “Give me a bestseller!” What I actually do is I surrender my agenda. Elizabeth: So ego is left aside. Patrick: Ego is left aside, and any preconceived ideas are left aside. So I’m not sitting there going “Give me inspiration”. I’m giving myself out, and saying “Take away”. Elizabeth: Use me, as a conduit. Patrick: “Use me”, and if that’s to be the best barista in Mornington, or go back to my cobbling beginnings, or elephant-washing beginnings, so be it. So most of – no, really all of – my flashes of inspiration you could say… There’s that great poem by Rumi, Listening, where he says, “When that voice speaks, may I sell my tongue and buy a thousand ears.” So when I’m hearing that voice, that is always followed by a period of prayerfulness or meditation which just opens up that creativity. Sounds easy. I know when I hear that voice, and I sell my tongue, I know that there’s a double emotion. Joy, and dread. Because I know that I’m in for some hard work. Elizabeth: ‘Cause writing can be hard work, can’t it. And the discipline that’s required – and you know you may not particularly feel like writing that day – but you have to put one foot in front of the other and keep going. Patrick: Yes, so back to the question, which was “How do we keep going?” How do we start? For me, I don’t really start until I’ve heard the voice, I’ve heard that voice, I’ve heard that spark of inspiration. How do I keep going? I know that I won’t have peace until it’s done. So I’m listening to that voice but I also know that it’s a collaboration after that. So I’m seeking opportunities to get it on paper or get it onto the computer. And they are taken in the busyness of my life with 3 young kids and a fulltime job as a physio. I have to be creative just to find that time. So often it’s my wonderful patients – patient patients – lying on the physio plinth – and I’ll just seek an opportunity to say, “Now that you’ve got all those needles all over you, there’s no way to run out of here. Would you mind listening to my latest? What do you think of it?” Elizabeth: Do they come back for another appointment after that, Patrick? Patrick: Normally they do. I don’t think I’ve managed to scare anyone off yet. Elizabeth: I might need to book for a session. Do I have to have a needle? Patrick: Not always, but it does – has that influence on my clinical judgment. Might be, if I’m honest. But I call it ‘bibliotherapy’. That works well, so I’m looking for opportunity. Sometimes I’ll pull the car over and send myself a text message for a sentence. Or middle of the night, off to the computer, or scribbling in bed on a bit of paper. I don’t have a routine about how to get these things down. Elizabeth: 2 a.m. is a common time for me to receive a sentence too. Patrick: In the shower can be a good place – you can scratch it into the wall, into the mist, write it down, whatever it is. But I’m in the posture of seeking the opportunity to find that time to write that down once I’ve heard that voice. Elizabeth: Can we talk about your work – who you work with, the wonderful men and women that you care for? Can we talk about that? Patrick: Yes, so 2 days a week, I work at the medical centre at Victoria Barracks, which is a service based in Melbourne. They are wonderful, so when I first started working for the military, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder about war and the work of the military. Elizabeth: In what way? Patrick: I’d been a bit of a hippie, a bit of a peace lover, a bit biased against the war machine, or whether it’s a valuable service that the Army and Navy and Air Force offer. And then you get to meet these people and hear their stories. Elizabeth: Amazing. Patrick: Amazing, the sacrifice made. I see the plague of PTSD is becoming more public or known as an extension of the epidemic of general mental health problems in the world. As a physio you get a front row seat really, and you get the rare – it’s a real privilege to offer probably two of the greatest needs of the human being: to be heard and understood, and to be touched. Elizabeth: Yes. Beautiful. Patrick: To be touched. There aren’t many mainstream medical professionals that offer both. So as a physio you’re in a really good place and space to offer that service and in that way to gather stories. So in that way it does feed into the other half of my career, which is becoming more than half really, the writing side of things, and the gathering of stories from the confessional plinth is part of that, and the sharing of stories is part of that. Elizabeth: They’re exceptionally lucky to have you. Patrick: Goes both ways. Elizabeth: You’ve had wonderful success with your book sales. What does success mean to you? Patrick: About three bucks fifty? (Laughter) So I remember when my amazing editor and publisher Margrete Lamond sat me down – we met face to face for the first time – she’s based in New South Wales – one of her first pieces of advice was “Don’t give up your day job!” Elizabeth: I’ve had the same advice before. Patrick: So in terms of success it’s been humbling and mind-blowing to think that That’s What Wings Are For – my first book – has cracked the magical 10,000 books sold in Australia within 6 months. Elizabeth: Wow. Congratulations. That’s wonderful. Patrick: So now we’re into our second year of sales. I’m not sure where we’re up to now, but has been picked up internationally and translated internationally to Chinese and Korean and several other languages. What does it mean to me? It means that – it gives me a voice, a chance to talk to your lovely self, and to visit schools. I love that side of being a writer. Most writers are more comfortable in a darkened room tapping away. To my surprise, I was a very reluctant public speaker but I absolutely love going out to the schools. On Wednesday, I had a full school assembly, hundreds of kids there, and the audience and ability to speak and share… Elizabeth: ‘Cause you make that fun, don’t you. We’re just going back to The Ricker Racker Club for a moment, and can we know how you make that fun for the kids? ‘Cause the parents listening there would be really interested – we know we’re there to do hard work but school can be fun as well. So how do you make it fun for them, Patrick? Patrick: Well, The Ricker Racker Club – I invite everyone to join this very exclusive club, The Ricker Racker Club, IF they pass the test. So I read the story, but along the way we pause and issue challenges to the members of the audience to come up on behalf of the whole school, see if they can pass this test. So we follow the story. And one of the characters is Max, and in the first week he sticks his head into the fox’s hole. So I make up a little fox’s hole, and find a willing kid to stick his head into this fox’s hole. The whole school are counting 20 seconds and I bring out this little stuffed fox. So the poor kid doesn’t know I’m tiptoeing up behind him and “Raaaahhh!” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Do you get a lot of screams? Patrick: We get a few of those, and then the villain of the book is this wolf next door, which is based on a great German Shepherd that lived next door to me, and I have the scar to prove, the moment the basketball flew over the fence. I rescued the basketball – and Chance (the dog’s name was Chance) – got me. And so the wolf next door – it would normally have a wolf suit – and it’s normally the PE teacher who dresses up as a wolf. Elizabeth: Would you go to our school? They’d love you. Patrick: I’d love to. Elizabeth: Ours is a service school, so you’ll like it. Ours is a service school, so we have a lot of service families that go to... Nice connection for you. Patrick: I’d love to come out. Absolutely. So the kids build up and up and at the end, “Who wants to join this club?” “Yeah!” “Who wants to learn the secret password?” “Yeah!” So I force it down a little and say, “Unfortunately you haven’t done quite enough yet.” Elizabeth: (Laughter) Oh my, the kids will go “Oh what?” Patrick: So it’s a case of “Do not put up your hand, do not raise your hand, unless you are extremely brave.” All the hands go up. “I mean it, I’m warning you now – extremely brave.” Elizabeth: What age group are we looking at, with the hands going up? Patrick: Prep, all the way to 6. Elizabeth: The whole school, wow. Patrick: At this point, some of the Grade 6s I can tell – folded their arms; it’s a bit babyish for them. So picture it: I do target them a bit at this point. So I’ll normally look for the guy who’s lost interest – the kid can be too cool for school here. And I’ll grab this fellow and bring him up. “So on behalf of the school, let’s talk about Courage. Courage comes in many forms. You’ve already demonstrated Courage by standing up in front of the whole school. But Courage comes in many forms. The courage to make a mistake when you know it’s going to get you in trouble. You’re scared of something. And then there’s taste buds. So we go back to Week 3, if you were listening, what did Zack do in Week 3?” And he’ll say “I’m sorry, I can’t remember.” Again in a loud voice, “What did Zack do in Week 3?” And you get the book out again: Zack drank a tomato sauce milkshake. At this point I’m standing behind him with milk, and then I bring out the tomato sauce. And what’s he do now? At this point he’s shaking his head ‘no’. And the school have already started the chant without encouragement: “Drink! Drink! Drink! Drink!” So I make this milkshake, this foaming tomato sauce milkshake… Elizabeth: Oh no. Patrick: And I pause again and say “Unfortunately my friend, Zack did that for one person. You’re doing it for 700 people right now. That’s not enough. So I look around – I shop for the largest Brussel sprout I can find. And I bring out this Brussel sprout, drop it into the tomato sauce milkshake, and present it to this fellow. Elizabeth: Poor kid. Patrick: The poor kid. Originally, I used this – it occurred to me that this is peer group pressure of the highest order. So I now use this as an opportunity for this poor unfortunate kid to – they’re saying no at this point – I really esteem that courage. I say “Look, you have done something extraordinarily brave. Everyone here at some point is going to face a baying crowd of people saying ‘Drink! Drink!’ or whatever. Elizabeth: That’s so clever, Patrick. Patrick: And to say no in the face of that, is true Courage. So I give him a round of applause and he sits down. “Now who wants to be a legend?” (Laughter) So someone else comes up. Or I’ll turn it into the “What would the kind person do now?” Or even better. “Maybe there’s a teacher in the audience…” Elizabeth: So what I’ll do is I’ll leave it there, because if the school listens to that one they won’t book you. I will leave them in suspense. When I first read That’s What Wings Are For, I was sitting in a coffee shop, with tears rolling down my cheeks. The other patrons respectfully averted their eyes. And you know you’ve found a great book when so much emotion is ... Can you please tell us about your inspiration for That’s What Wings Are For? Patrick: So That’s What Wings Are For … Maybe I can mention one of my favourite poems of all time, which is The Hound of Heaven. The Hound of Heaven, for those who don’t know, written more than a hundred years ago by a homeless opium addict in London, Francis Thompson. So he was asking the big question: how could a loving God allow such suffering in the world, and particularly in his own life? And the penny starts to drop about halfway through. He says maybe, just maybe, You allow us in Your love to burn and burn until we become charcoal, and You pick us up and You create Your masterpiece. So That’s What Wings Are For – I’m not calling it a masterpiece – it certainly came from a burning charcoal in process. And that process was the great sadness in my life. My son Noah has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy, which is a devastating condition that involves the wasting of muscles. And the heart’s a muscle, and it’s a devastating disease. So in light of that I was asked to write a book about a certain blue dragon Bluey, who is the mascot for all the families affected by this devastating disease. So I was working on another book at the time, and I was asked to write this book. And I jumped at the chance, but I also knew there was a heavy responsibility writing that. So really you can look globally at that and look at the whole community impacted by that, but really it was a love letter from a father to a son. Elizabeth: Beautiful. Patrick: And that’s how it was written, and that is something I do say when I go out to the schools. You’ve heard Ricker Racker – it’s quite a boisterous, joyous occasion. When I go out to talk about That’s What Wings Are For, I basically start off in a fun way, and then I bring it back sharply and I say, I bring out Bluey, the actual mascot, a blue plush teddy, and I say “I actually met Bluey on the worst day of my life.” And to have a school go from being quite boisterous, and the teachers go “Shh! Shh! Shh!” to your pin drop in one sentence… Elizabeth: Wow, that’s powerful. Patrick: They get it. They get it. From the preppies all the way up to the Grade 6s, they get it, and there’s a real reverence suddenly about the book and why it was written. And then I explain what’s happened from there and we go from there. I still struggle to read it without crying, but they are tears of – what will I say - I heard this line yesterday – “what we sow with tears, we reap with shouts of joy”. And there’s something joyous – it’s bigger than me, this thing. It’s bigger than me. Elizabeth: What you’ve created is magnificent. Patrick: Thank you. Elizabeth: You’re welcome. You mentioned in an interview that 80% of That’s What Wings Are For was written over breakfast with your family, and then one sentence that brought tears to your eyes took you 3 months to write. Can you please share that sentence with my listeners and what it was that finally led you to discover the sentence that made you cry? Patrick: What it was was my incredible ego. I just – it went to my head. The idea of being a published author and all this went absolutely to my head. Elizabeth: Well you are only human after all. (Laughter) Patrick: Well, I’m sitting back there, I’m imagining red carpets, imagining walking up the stairs. It was shocking! And here I am, I’ve written a book for my sick kid, and my ego’s having a field day. At this point I hadn’t even had the manuscript finished… Elizabeth: You were strutting around… Patrick: It was appalling. I’m embarrassed about it, at the way I was carrying on in my head anyway. So we needed – Bluey needed a reason to be doing what he did ultimately, which is find a reason for his wings. And I was trying all these sentences about sending him off to Margrete, and very gently and respectfully she would be saying “That is rubbish.” (Laughter) Elizabeth: Thanks Margrete. She just knew there was more to you – she knows how deep you are. Patrick: She knew how to push the buttons and what’s right. And equally my wife Lisa as well. And more so my wife Lisa, she has a great ability to tell me when I’m writing something that’s rubbish - and good as well. Elizabeth: Good. Patrick: So the to-ing and fro-ing went on for months. And then I had this moment of “You complete goose! What are you doing?” And certainly at that moment I decided that every cent from this book would be given to charity, which it always should have been anyway, and I made that decision, and entered some prayer and reflection, and within really minutes of making that decision – within minutes – I was given this sentence. And I have to set the context of that time. And at the time we had a crudely termed … we called it a ‘year of adventure’ – you could call it a bucket list, and we were doing all sorts of things around the world. So the sentence – Bluey was coming back from the Royal Children’s Hospital. It was broadened to be a magical building filled with magical creatures with all sorts of ailments. So at that moment when Bluey looks out, and when I’m reading the story to the school, I’ll have people close their eyes and put their hands on their hearts, and feel. Elizabeth: Which I’m going to do now. Patrick: And if you keep feeling, you’ll feel something. You may not feel it straightaway, but if you keep trying, you’ll get there. You’ll feel something warm and fuzzy. And that feeling has a name; it has lots of names. Kindness, and hope, and love, and what happens – and at this moment, Bluey looks across, and I share this sentence: “Bluey saw the boy’s soft, floppy legs, and at that moment, something happened in Bluey’s heart. He stopped for that moment thinking so much about his own situation, and he looked inward. He looked out, and saw this boy sharing a similar path. That word ‘empathy’. That changed everything for Bluey; it helped him work out what his wings were for.” So we go on from there. Elizabeth: Beautiful. That compassion for another person. The author-illustrator relationship is such a pivotal one. Can you describe what is important to you in such a relationship? Patrick: Respect, and trust, and space. So ‘let there be space in your togetherness’. Certainly for the first two books – the first one, Daniella Germain, extraordinary talent. And then the same with Nathanial Eckstrom, rising superstar of the illustration world. So first book, I had no contact at all with Daniella until after all the illustrations were done. Had no input into the illustrations at all. So in terms of relationship, it’s one of trust. Slightly different with the second book – some feedback. Poor Nathanial, I saw his amazing illustrations, but – and it was amazing that he managed to draw my 3 kids without having seen a photo of them, quite accurately – except for Gracie wears glasses. And I just politely asked whether he might pop glasses on Poppy (Gracie is named Poppy in the book). So he went back and put glasses on. Then I had a look at that and thought, “No. Makes her look too old now. Can you take the glasses off?” So that was a bit of a diva moment for me, I suppose. But other than that it really is letting go and not being too precious and trusting in the selection of the illustrator – that’s up to the publisher – and I trust Margrete to make that decision, and she hasn’t failed me yet. I know how she is with me with the words, and she’s that way again with the illustrator. Elizabeth: What a wonderful person to find! Patrick: She is great, she’s fantastic. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment? Patrick: Well, the undercurrent to all the picture books that have been picked up in the last couple of years has been a novel for children called The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle, and I’ve been working on the story for more than 10 years. And it comes and goes, and then another idea overrides that. But I keep coming back to The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. That is lying dormant again, but I know I will go back to that, so there’s always that in the background. That story is the story of an old man who loves to tell stories. And he has this great secret. Great secret, that he's burning with this secret, to share it with his grandson Arthur. Long story short, he gets invited to the World Storytelling Competition in Marrakesh, Morocco, up against the greats of storytelling. Professor Chinwag from China, Lord Blabbermouth from England. I won’t give too much away, but he makes it to the final and he tells this great secret, but the secret is revealed slowly as the story goes along. Elizabeth: Suspense right through… Patrick: Right through. It has been a lot of hard work, also joy, and I have a sense that one day it will happen. I’ve also recently finished another picture book manuscript that is very, very dear to my heart, called Tiny Dancer. Elizabeth: The Elton John song. Patrick: The Elton John song, so hopefully Sir Elton will approve, and that’s really dear to my heart, and I’m in an acquisitions meeting on that one. And we’re in the process of illustrating and that process does involve some word changes. My next release which will be next year, I thought that was going to be a book called The Second Sky. It sounds like – based on this week’s emails – it sounds like it will be called Rabby the Brave. Elizabeth: You’re just prolific – you’re pounding on aren’t you, one after the other. Patrick: Look, it’s been a blessed couple of years. There’s been a very rich vein of inspiration and creativity that’s happening at the moment. Really grateful. Elizabeth: We’re very, very pleased too, I must say. Can’t wait to read them. What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind from all this work you’re doing – the physio work with the military, your family, and all this wonderful writing you’re doing? What do you do to unwind? Patrick: I’m clinging to my childhood in terms of chasing a bouncy ball around. I still play basketball. There’s a competition going on in Victoria Barracks actually, so at the ripe old age of 45, I’m taking on the burly soldiers, I’m taking on the burly soldiers in this basketball competition. Elizabeth: Well you have to keep up on being brave. (Laughter) Patrick: I love it. I must say I’m shamelessly, every goal I score – there aren’t many of them – I’m celebrating them like they could be my last. So there’s the fist pump and the whooping after every goal I score. And would you believe I’m still sort of – don’t let Lisa know but I’m still playing football. Full contact. There’s a wonderful competition – Reclink, midweek, battlers’ competition. You may have heard of the Choir of Hard Knocks – Reclink was spawned from it and there’s a football league for battlers, whether it be homeless refugees or people battling addiction. So we’ve set up a team in Frankston, and I’ve been the … Elizabeth: You are brave. (Laughter) Patrick: Madness, absolute madness. And so I’ve been the physio, the chaplain, the halfback flank and the water boy, whatever goes on, whatever’s needed for that team. And there’s just something primal about playing Australian Rules football that I just can’t let go of. And if I ever get the chance, I’ll go out surfing as well. Elizabeth: Isn’t it great to tap into that raw energy and just let yourself go? Patrick: It is. With surfing, it’s one of the few pastimes or sports where you spend 95% of the time staring at the horizon. So you get a chance to unwind – then it goes from the serenity to scrambling for your life. It’s great. Elizabeth: It’s a bit of a metaphor, isn’t it? Patrick: It’s great. Yes, so those are the 3 main things. Elizabeth: Do you want to remain in the children’s book genre? Patrick: Absolutely. Maybe one day a book for grownups, but certainly at the moment I’m loving – when you write a picture book, you are writing for grownups – you’re writing for two generations. Elizabeth: It’s that connection, I think, with parent-child. It’s so special. And you both learn so much when you’re reading together. Patrick: Absolutely. And I’ve been trying to make the transition from picture books into early readers, and I’ve found that quite hard. I might have to leapfrog that and go into older early readers. Because to go from a picture book to an early reader is – you got to dumb it down. You really have to dumb it down. That’s a crude way of saying it, but you do. There are certain concepts you have to avoid, and using poetry or metaphors is a bit more tricky. So maybe that’s not for me, that niche. So certainly The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle is for an older reader, an older young reader. And then the picture books as well. I might stick to those, to genres within the broader children’s book genre for now. We’ll see what happens after. Elizabeth: You’re so insightful. Because you haven’t actually studied Creative Writing or completed a formal uni degree in writing, and yet your knowledge is so vast. Is you’re your intuition at play again, do you think? Patrick: Not sure. I think it’s a blessing. Don’t want to use the word ‘gift’, but I think it’s nothing to be proud of if it’s a gift. Elizabeth: I really have to disagree, because so many people are given, receive gifts, it’s then what you do with that gift. And so many people do not do anything with what they’ve been blessed with. I do think you can claim that proudly and whoop, like on a footy field. (Laughter) Patrick: Maybe. I do love whooping when there’s a sense of victory, a sense of accomplishment – once you finish that manuscript, submit to send, and you know it’s off, and have such a beautiful relationship with Margrete. I should mention Alyson O’Brien, who is also with Little Hare – I’m increasingly involved with her. I know that they will read it and give it the full attention and get back to me quite quickly, so that agonizing wait has been reduced to, in some cases, a few hours now, which is great. Elizabeth: It’s cause you’re so clever, and they know it. Do you have a website or blog, Patrick, that my listeners can go to find out more about your wonderful work? Patrick: Yes, there’s a shiny new website, “Patrick Guest dot com dot au”. I know nothing about the technical side of websites, and a great friend of mine, Jeffrey County, has helped set that up, and it’s sparkling. Elizabeth: Aren’t tech people great? I’m not one of those. Patrick: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. There’s no way I could do that. So that’s up and running now, so there’s opportunity to email me and contact me through that. Happy to do that. Elizabeth: Patrick, this is a signature question that I ask all my guests. What do you wish for, for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Patrick: That’s a big one. Look, the first thing that springs to mind is a cure for Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy. Elizabeth: I’m with you. Patrick: That would be the first thing. But if I thought more about it, more broadly… Maybe I could go back to Ernie Pigwinkle, The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle. So I’ll give away a little bit, so we get to the end of the story. We’re at the World Storytelling Championships, so Ernie, this old man from Ballarat, has made the final and won, thanks to his grandson. So the secret starts off as “Do you know why dogs wag their tails?” We move on from there to “Why dogs and cats fight – the origins of war”. Then he finishes with a little song, a little poem he says to the world: It’s a war that’s continued to this very day. It’s a shame that Dog and Cat couldn’t think of a way To listen and learn and be understood, And love one another as all of us could. You don’t have to carry on like a dog or a cat. You’re not a baboon or as blind as a bat. There’s a heart in your chest and a brain in your head. So before you lose faith, hold on instead. Hold on to your faith in the goodness of others. Never give up on your sisters and brothers. You’ll see for yourself, as sure as the sun, That there’s something worth loving in everyone. He says that. Elizabeth: I need a box of tissues. [Laughter] Oh Patrick, my goodness, that’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Patrick: That’s the world premiere of The Last Secret of Ernie Pigwinkle and… Elizabeth: What a coup on Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Wow, Patrick! Superb. Patrick Guest, thank you so much for joining me on “Writers Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris”. We look forward to more of your stunning work. I totally agree with you: hugging is what wings are for. Thanks for tuning in everyone, and may your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Rosalie Ham is the author of The Dressmaker, Summer at Mount Hope, and There Should Be More Dancing.The Dressmaker was made into a movie starring Kate Winslet, Judy Davis, Liam Hemsworth and Hugo Weaving, amongst others, and opened at the number one spot at the Australian and New Zealand box offices, and became the second highest grossing Australian film of 2015.  Find out more about Rosalie's work at RosalieHam.com. What you'll learn:1. Rosalie's thoughts on the Hollywood box office success of The Dressmaker.2. The one trait you must have to succeed as a writer.3. How a negative review has turned out to Rosalie's advantage.4. Why Rosalie prefers the company of the main characters in There Should Be More Dancing. FULL TRANSCRIPT Elizabeth: Welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris, the show that connects Authors, Poets and Songwriters with their global audience. So I can continue to bring you high-caliber guests, I want you to go to iTunes, click Subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with your friends. I’m delighted to introduce today’s guest, Rosalie Ham. Rosalie was born and raised in Jerilderie, New South Wales, Australia. Prior to Rosalie’s life as a bestselling author, she worked in a variety of jobs, including a stint in aged care. Rosalie completed a Bachelor in Education majoring in Drama and Literature in 1989, and completed her Master of Arts (Creative Writing) in 2007. In 2000, Rosalie published her first novel, The Dressmaker, now a major box office hit. The Dressmaker opened at the number one spot at the Australian and New Zealand box offices, and became the second highest grossing Australian film of 2015, and the eleventh highest grossing film of all time at the Australian box office. The costumes from this poignant film have been featured in several costume exhibitions. Rosalie is jetting off to New York soon for a special screening of The Dressmaker before its release on September 23rd. Rosalie’s second novel, Summer at Mount Hope, was published in 2005. And in 2011, we were privileged to receive yet another great novel, There Should Be More Dancing, which we will feature today. Rosalie Ham, welcome to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris. Rosalie: Thank you, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Rosalie, we both worked in aged care before launching our writing careers. Can you tell me a little about how serving others has impacted you? Rosalie: Enormously. Looking after elderly people was probably one of the best things I’ve ever done. And I think possibly because of all the information, all the learning, all the experience, all the history, and because of their outlook on life at that stage in their life. They seem to be quite – a lot of them seem to be quite resigned to the life they’ve led and others are quite happy about the life they’ve led and others are quite bitter about the life they should have led, I suppose. But I thoroughly enjoyed it, I learned a huge amount. I enjoy enormously old people and of course it makes you see what’s important and what’s not. Elizabeth: Just because they’re usually perceptive, isn’t it. Rosalie: Yes. Elizabeth: And learning too from their wisdom, whether they actually enjoyed their life or whether they have not quite enjoyed, they laugh as well. Rosalie. Yes, and we learned about war and why the men were like that. We learned about some of the lives of the women. Most particularly, a lot of the women got married early because that was what was expected of them, and a lot of women were actually quite disappointed in the whole thing. Elizabeth: That sense of duty to the country, wasn’t it. Rosalie: Yes. And then of course you see the elderly ladies coming and sitting at their husbands’ bedside, the devoted true-love matches that have endured 60 years. That’s very sad when one of them has to be looked after by other people. It’s sad for their wives. They come in, sometimes twice a day. It’s just very real. Elizabeth: Sure. When did you know you wanted to be a writer? Rosalie: Do you know, I’ve always known it, but it was only hindsight that told me that I had always known it. I wrote stories as a kid, I put on plays with all my imaginary friends, and my best friend Terrie and I put on acting performances at primary school. So there’s always been a sense of story and drama. And there’s always been a sense of an audience for all those things. But of course if you weren’t raised in the way I was, be able to get a good job and support yourself and that … Happily, I was given the alternative, like if I was unfortunate enough to not get married and be supported, my parents always wanted me to have a job. So I trained to have a job and I put any writing aspirations to the side. But I always wrote letters and I always kept a bit of a journal. And occasionally I would write a short story. And I knew that I could spin a yarn because people would say to me, “Can you write me a letter, like in your letters?” And then one day I just got bored with life and seeing that I’d done everything else that I was supposed to do, it seemed there was something a bit not there, something a bit missing, so I went off to writing school. And I think I was sitting in that writing class for about three weeks before I went, actually there was something physical emotional sensation that came across me and I went, “Aha!” This is where I remember the classroom and this is where I remember “I can do this”, where I feel good. That moment there – it was excellent. Elizabeth: Can you advise all the aspiring writers out there how to get started, and more importantly how to keep going? Rosalie: It’s tenacity – and I kind of believe that everybody could be a writer if they wanted to. But you’ve got to have the inclination, and you’ve got to want to sit in a room on your own for a very, very long time, and you’ve got to be quite comfortable doing that, and then perhaps being rejected. But I just think you need to be bored enough as well. Like there needs to be something not in your life that you can find happiness in doing that – in doing that menial task, just sitting in your room on your own with that computer and being dedicated to all those characters. A huge amount of writers will drop out of a writing course partway into it. They discover that it’s not for them, so I think that if you were still sitting in that room after a year and you’re still walking around thinking about your story, then you have the temperament to sit down and be able to do it. You’ve got to have a degree of talent, and you’ve got to have a degree of tenacity to be able to do it. You just got to stick at it. My personal philosophy is that you need to get it all down on the page, and then once you’ve got all the words, then you have something to craft. Elizabeth: They talk about writing junk, don’t they, and then eventually you fine-tune that. Rosalie: You do, and that’s a skill too. I think that’s a really important part of writing. You can go back and recognize what the junk is. You’re quite happy to chop it out, and you feel quite confident that you’ll be able to write more, and write again, and keep writing, that there’s something in you that will keep doing that. So if you have to cut out ten pages, it’s not a problem. Elizabeth: It’s almost like there’s that sense of non-attachment too, because you are too attached to what you’ve written down, you can’t let it go. You need to have that free-flowing feeling about things. Rosalie: But you’ve got to write – I agree with you completely, you’ve got to be writing so that other people will read it. Other authors say they don’t write for an audience, but I write something that is well-crafted, well I try to anyway, and other readers might disagree with me, but I do try to write something that’s well-crafted that will keep the reader engaged. So I do have a reader in mind when I’m writing, so therefore I’m quite happy to edit and get rid of things, I learned that earlier on. With my first edit actually, I learned that you have to let things go, and I was quite happy to do it. Elizabeth: Great. And I know that when I read your work, I giggle right through. Do you do that too? Rosalie: Yeah you know sometimes you need to. I was preparing for this interview a few weeks ago, and I picked up There Should Be More Dancing, and I read a couple of pages and I thought, “Gosh! That’s…that’s quite okay.” Elizabeth: Absolutely. Rosalie: And I was watching an interview with Edna O’Brien on television last night, and the interviewer read something of hers to her, and she had to ask him which book it was from. He said it was The Country Girls. And I felt quite happy about that, because honestly I’ve forgotten a lot of what I’ve written. Elizabeth: When you’re writing, Rosalie, what is your major source of support – or who? Rosalie: No one. I suppose I will have to say my husband; he knows not to – I think he can tell by the tone – and my shoulders are … Then he will ask me a question and then he kind of backs off, because you know, I’m in the middle of doing something. I speak a lot to the dog that’s lying there on the … Elizabeth: Yes, Eric’s there, having a bit of a sleep. Rosalie: And I’ve got a really good friend Terrie, and I talk … whinge to her about it. She doesn’t really listen to what I’m saying, but at least I can air my thoughts. And there’s a couple of other writers that I have dinner with from time to time, and we’ll have a little bit of a whinge. And so I think those things…But there’s not one huge great thing.  I guess it’s my desire to get to the end of it too that keeps me tripping over, sitting there typing. Elizabeth: Letting you come back into it again. Rosalie: Absolutely. Elizabeth: You’ve had phenomenal success with The Dressmaker. What does being successful mean to you? Rosalie: You know, people ask me that, and it actually hasn’t altered my life at all, really. I’ve got a nice car and I’ve paid off my mortgage, which is a huge relief. It’s a blessing to have that off there, but I think what it means now is that when I do publish my … when publishing houses get hold of my fourth manuscript that I’ve just finished, they will look at it in a different way, given the success of The Dressmaker. And along with that, that has meant people have started reading Summer of Mount Hope and There Should Be More Dancing, so they are reaching a wider audience, and I can’t tell you how happy I am about that. Elizabeth: Wonderful. Rosalie: And of course that means I’ve been published in other countries as well. And all of that is amazing. It’s amazing to have that kind of affirmation, and people pick up your book and look at it differently because there’s been one successful book, so they have a certain expectation about the others. There are some people that will go into my other books with trepidation and possibly a little bit of cynicism. But there are others who will go with a lovely attitude. So I’m really, really happy about that but I think most importantly, it’s an affirmation for me. It’s a double-edged thing; I feel quite affirmed by that success, but also slightly more terrified because there is that expectation. Elizabeth: And does it in one way create a sense of pressure? Rosalie: Absolutely, it does. But that’s alright. It comes back to that boredom or tenacity or something, but I just seem to be okay with that, and I’ll just try really hard not to read the reviews. I think that’s probably the best thing – just don’t read reviews, because they will scrutinize more, the reviews, so I will just have to deal with that. Elizabeth: Have they upset you in the past? Rosalie: Look, the very first review I ever read of The Dressmaker, I think was the worst review I’ve ever read of any book, ever. It was scathing, it was awful, and I photocopied it. And I was at home at the time, and my friend was with me, and I photocopied it and we took it to class. And we read it out to the class. They all looked – I can still see them, they were looking at me like “Oh my God”, and the teacher – bless him – said, “Right, okay, this is a good lesson to us all. What we’re going to do now, is we’re going to do some therapy with Rosalie. And I want everybody to close their books; we’re going to the pub.” (Laughter) So we went to the pub. So I of course have blown that review up, and it’s on my wall in there, and what I do with that review is … often, because The Dressmaker is on the VCE Lit. list, and often they study The Dressmaker – and one of the questions they’re asked when they’re doing their SAC’s, you know, other people’s opinions of the book as opposed to theirs. I happily had photocopied thousands of copies and handed them out to the schoolchildren of Victoria, to show them how one reviewer’s point of view can differ from theirs and how you don’t take literally or to heart every review, and how that can be damaging. So there’s a whole lot of schoolchildren out there who now know that particular reviewer got it terribly, terribly wrong. She missed the point. She missed the point entirely of the whole book. Elizabeth: So thank you very much to that person, because she certainly increased the determination all over Victoria, Australia, possibly the world… people who might be feeling a bit bruised. That’s great. In There Should Be More Dancing, I was particularly drawn to your main character Marjorie Blandon. I especially loved this quote: ‘Marjorie Blandon has led an upright, principled life guided by the wisdom of desktop calendars.’ As the novel progresses, the reader discovers that there are many secrets contained within Marjorie’s supposedly principled life. There Should Be More Dancing is such a great book, and showcases your wit beautifully. Can you please share one of your favourite passages from There Should Be More Dancing? Rosalie: I think – possibly – it would have to be the public scalping incident with Pat across the road. I think that’s probably the one I enjoyed writing the most. But actually Marjorie is my favourite person on the planet. She’s one of those people in the aged care facility, a little bit bigoted and a little bit prejudiced. Elizabeth: So I’ve looked after many Marjorie’s in my time in my nursing career… (Laughter) Rosalie: Look, I’m going to read the Public Scalping Incident, and it’s quite long. So I might just start off. It happened at the 1976 Ladies Legacy luncheon. Pat and Bill were big in Legacy, and for the ladies’ luncheon, Pat was allowed to take a guest as it was her turn to give the address. As she was rehearsing her address one last time, articulating and emphasizing her words to her assembled ballroom dancing frocks, the phone rang. She was disappointed to hear her guest Betty say her car had broken down. “I know it’s a long way Pat, but we could go halves on the price of a taxi.” So of course Pat doesn’t want to go halves on the price of a taxi. So she is forced to ask Marjorie to be her guest at the Legacy luncheon where she is to give her address, because Marjorie’s got a car. Elizabeth: That’s right. Rosalie: And so Marjorie ends up on the top table. And I’ll just read that bit there. So Marjorie found herself at the top table – the Legacy leaders’ table, a dignitary to her right and Pat on her left. Before her a sea of soft brown and blue curls and ample-bosomed ladies, floral and pastel with fleshy earlobes, wattles and dewlaps, all maintained by step-ins and various prosthetics. Before her propped a saucer of geranium petals surrounding a floating chrysanthemum, was a white card advertising the day’s proceedings. First on the program was the local choir, who sang ‘God Save The Queen’. The assembled ladies then sat through Number 2: welcome speech by the Chairwoman. Number 3: the main meal would be served – chicken or ham salad followed by Number 4, the choir singing ‘Morning Has Broken’, while the ladies enjoyed a fruit compote with custard. For Number 5, a lass from St Joseph’s School wrote a composition on the effects of war on those left behind. Her story was based on the life of her great-grandmother, who had grown her own vegetables and milked her cow and ploughed her own fields during the war to help the Land Army. Then it was Pat’s turn. The emcee said, “I give you Pat Crookshank, and this month’s address titled ‘The Unseen Effects of War on Women’. Pat bared her teeth to Marjorie and said, “Any fruit seeds stuck to my dentures?” “No,” said Marjorie. And Pat turned to stand up. At that moment, Marjorie noticed the tag poking out of the back of Pat’s cardigan. “Hang on,” she said, and reached out to tuck it in, when the catch on her wrist watch caught on one of Pat’s curls as she rose. Marjorie had no idea Pat wore a wig, no idea her hair had snapped off and fallen out from years and years of peroxide and perming fluid. Pat stood frozen before the room of fellow legatees, her rival addressees past and future, the thin tufts of her brittle hair flat against her damp shiny pate, and her wig dangling from Marjorie’s wrist watch. (Laughter) Finally someone started clapping. Pat had turned a deep red, and the audience, moved by her brave humility, started to applaud thunderously. (Applause) Elizabeth: This is weird, classical, absolutely delightful. How can we better that? (Laughter) Rosalie: Thanks. Elizabeth: What are you working on at the moment, Rosalie? Rosalie: I’ve just handed in my fourth novel. I think that’s the third or fourth time I’ve mentioned that in the last fifteen minutes – I’m so pleased. Elizabeth: We want you to mention it again. Rosalie: The fourth manuscript is … again, I’ve returned to a small community. A small community is a good palette for life’s tragedies, and it doesn’t really matter if it’s in a rural community or urban community or in your street or your football club or whatever. But small communities… Elizabeth: It’s all group dynamics, isn’t it. Rosalie: It is, absolutely. So this one’s set in a small country town and has to do with irrigation water and the effects of government buybacks and water allocations on this one small community. And one man – whose name is Mitchell Bishop – and he has a 12 km stretch of channel that needs to be replaced. But there are three areas in the town that are affected. There are the riparians who live along the river and there are the town folk and the shopkeepers, and of course there are the irrigators. And the impacts that the water renewal projects and the water restrictions and irrigation allocation has on that community. Elizabeth: Which would be huge, being a life force, water. Rosalie: Absolutely, yeah. And if you cut the allocation to the irrigators, they have to produce more with less water, and they have to spend more money to get less water to support the upgrade, and therefore they don’t spend money in the town. And so when one liter of water leaves the community, so does one job more or less. But in order to stay afloat, you need the water. You all need to work together. And of course the town people are resentful. Their water rates are going to go up to support the irrigators. The riparians are resentful because they’re going to suffer, they’re going to take more water, yet at the same time the world needs food. We have to feed people, and there are more people, so they need more food. So it’s a sort of distillation of that in a small community. Elizabeth: And all the dynamics that go with that, no doubt addressed very cleverly by you. Rosalie: Oh well actually there is love, and there is a bit of tragedy, and there’s a few things that go on. Elizabeth: If you had decided not to write your novels, what sort of career do you think you would have taken? Rosalie: Do you know, I often think about this, and I think that I probably would be a teacher. I still am a teacher. I still teach two days a week, but I think I probably would be working fulltime as a teacher, possibly in a secondary college. You know years ago I went for an interview to be a State Registered Nurse, you know, a nursing sister. But I just never did it. I was having far too much fun, so I only tried to be a State Enrolled Nurse, which was just the one-year course. And I think that was the key to my writing success, because if I’d been a State Registered Nurse, I think I probably would have been quite content with that, and I would have had a perfectly lovely life around that. Elizabeth: Ironically, I am a State Registered Nurse, but I have continued on to write, so maybe not, because you’ve got that enormous talent that we could not do without. Rosalie: Possibly, but it’s hard to speculate, but yeah, perhaps you’re right. Elizabeth: What is it about teaching that you love? Rosalie: Do you know, I think probably communication. Communicating ideas, and for me it’s seeing the light bulb go on. If you’re explaining something – and I teach Literature – explaining Shakespeare or reading Shakespeare or poetry or something and you stop and you look at those people and you go, “Okay, now this is what is happening”, and explain what is going on, they go “Oh…right…” and you send them off on a journey of self-exploration and you get them to find all those things. I think if you’re enthusiastic enough it infects the students, and they get carried away with the whole thing. You just – it’s communicating the information and seeing them go “Oh okay, I get it”. Elizabeth: And you’d be a fabulous teacher – very, very entertaining. (Laughter) What do you like to do in your spare time to unwind? Rosalie:  I read. I read books. And I play golf. I love to play golf. Go for a lovely long walk. And I enjoy going for a nice drive in the country, going home to the farm, doing something quite different. Elizabeth: Do you have a special place you like to go other than the farm? Rosalie: No, it’s just the farm – the family farm. And there’s something about standing on a farm and being able to see the horizon, with no obstructions, nothing to block your imagination and stop your vision at this point. There’s nothing, so your vision goes on, and as it goes on, things fall away and you understand what’s important. One of my favourite things to do is sit in the ute with my brother as he goes about his sheep work. And my job is to open the gate – that’s something I’ve been doing since I was able to open a gate – and just watch him go about doing his business, asking dumb questions about farming things. It just puts everything back into perspective for me and time is slower in the country. Elizabeth: Yes, it’s wonderful. What does your brother think of your success? Rosalie: Oh they’re thrilled to bits. They were all very good you know, because it’s in a small community - they love it if someone is out there kicking goals. You know, they really think it’s a terrific and wonderful thing and I’m very grateful to that. We’ve been back to Jerilderie and they’ve received us very well. It’s been really good, and the Ham family up at J seem to be coping with it all quite well. Of course a lot of them were in the film as extras and they come down if I have a book launch. They’ll come down for a special trip you know, and they’ll make that effort to come down, which I appreciate enormously. Elizabeth: And you were in the film too! Rosalie: Yeah, no, I’m an extra as well. Elizabeth: I’ve seen you in the film. How was that for you? How did you feel when you were doing all that great acting? Rosalie: Do you know, I probably … I think I’m more content in the company of Marjorie Blandon and her lovely son Walter in There Should Be More Dancing. I think my days of being an extra have come and gone. It was fun, and I enjoyed it, but really when I finished that fourth manuscript the other day and handed it in, it was just such a heartwarming thing. Because that whole thing about your characters and creating the arc and all that sort of stuff, and me doing it rather than participating in somebody else’s, is probably some sort of vanity or narcissism, but I actually prefer that. I actually prefer that, to be doing my own thing in my own room, creating my own little story, rather than revisiting them when they’re out in the world. Elizabeth: And the characterization of There Should Be More Dancing is so rich. Rosalie: Yeah, no, I loved writing that book and I loved all those people. I love that Judith came good in the end. I had a huge amount of fun writing that book. Elizabeth: I enjoyed every page; I must say thank you very much for that book. It was fantastic. Do you have a website or blog where my listeners can find out more about your work? Rosalie: I do. It’s www-dot-Rosalie-Ham-dot-com and there’s a blog there. And I wrote that while I was being an extra in The Dressmaker. But now that I’ve handed in the fourth manuscript, I’ll probably go back and write a few more things on different topics. And Summer at Mount Hope is being published in the United Kingdom right now, and I’m hoping someone will pick up There Should Be More Dancing. They told me that it’s not a story that will translate well in other countries but I’m just really hoping it does. Elizabeth: I really disagree, but then that’s me. Rosalie: Yeah, no, I disagree too but let’s just see what happens…my third one…my third child Elizabeth: Rosalie, this is a signature question I ask all my guests. What do you wish for – for the world, and most importantly, for yourself? Rosalie: It’s basically the same thing, it’s Health. For the world of course – I just think … I hope we get our act together … climate change. I hope we get our act together over less advantaged countries and poverty and educating women in disadvantaged countries. If the women rise, the village will rise with them. You always hope for those sorts of things. I don’t think we’re ever going to stop any kind of war; I think that’s human nature. But basically for my health I just would like for me and everybody else around me to be healthy and happy. That’s all that’s important. Elizabeth: That’s one thing you can’t have too much of. Rosalie Ham, thank you so much for guesting on Writers’ Tete-a-Tete with Elizabeth Harris. We look forward to more of your work and your fantastic characterizations. I totally agree with you and Florence: “There should be more dancing.” Thanks for tuning in everyone. If you enjoy this episode and want more high-caliber guests, subscribe to Writers’ Tête-à-tête with Elizabeth Harris on iTunes and may all your wishes come true. [END OF TRANSCRIPT]

Audio File:  Download MP3Transcript: An Interview with Elizabeth Charnock CEO and founder, Cataphora Date: July 24, 2007 NCWIT Interview with Elizabeth Charnock BIO: Elizabeth Charnock is the CEO and co-founder of Chenope, a bootstrapped startup that creates analytics that predict the future of an organization based on the observable behaviors of its members based on whatever data is available. Prior to that Elizabeth founded Cataphora and led it from concept to profitability, funded entirely by revenues from clients and without any outside investment. The company's genesis was a fundamental insight that Elizabeth had about a revolutionary approach to information retrieval. Starting from that idea, and a kitchen table group of four employees, she has guided the growth of Cataphora to over 100 employees. The company has seen three consecutive years of at least 100% growth in revenue, customers, and employee head count. In 2006, the company moved into a dedicated new headquarters building in Redwood City, California, and opened an office in Washington, DC, two blocks from the White House. 2006 also saw the granting of all claims in Cataphora’s fundamental technology patent, which Elizabeth co-authored. In leading Cataphora’s success, Elizabeth has drawn on her prior experience as an entrepreneur and CEO, and on her extensive knowledge of information retrieval technology and business. Prior to starting Cataphora, Elizabeth was CEO and founder of Troba, an industry leading Customer Relationship Management software company which she sold in 2001. Her previous experience includes management and senior engineering positions at international high tech companies such as Hewlett-Packard and Sun Microsystems. She started her career at Unisys in Plymouth, Michigan, where she ran a human factors laboratory. Elizabeth has lived in both France and Germany and speaks both of those languages. She has been a dedicated jazz dance performer. She enjoys travel, as well as spending time at home with her whippet, Ragnar, and African Gray parrot, Howard. Elizabeth holds a BS in Theoretical Mathematics from the University of Michigan Honors Program, which she entered at the age of sixteen. Lucy Sanders: Hi. This is Lucy Sanders, and I'm the CEO of the National Center for Woman and Information Technology, or NCWIT. With me today, is Larry Nelson, from w3w3.com. Hi, Larry. Welcome. Larry Nelson: Hello. I'm so happy to be here. Lucy: And Lee Kennedy, who's a co‑founder of Tricalyx, a new company here in Boulder. Lee Kennedy: Hi. Lucy: Lee is also an NCWIT director. So, today, we're interviewing Elizabeth Charnock, the CEO and founder of Cataphora. Elizabeth, welcome. Elizabeth Charnock: Thank you. Larry: Boy, I tell you, I'm so excited to be a part of this. It's a great program, and sorely needed out there, which is what really makes it extra special. Lucy: Well, Elizabeth's company is just extremely interesting to me. Elizabeth, I see, from looking online, that you're a patent holder? Elizabeth: That's correct. Lucy: And your company works on email. You must have some pretty sassy algorithms there, trying to figure out the content [laughs] of email. Why don't you give us a bit of information about your company? Elizabeth: Sure, I'd love to. First of all, it's not just about email. In fact, the idea that the company is founded on is that search is really no longer just about content. The search algorithms that are out there now, with the exception of Google's, on the Internet, all have very much to do with classifying documents according to content. And most documents used to have quite a bit of content, making this fairly easy to do. So you can see how many times, for example, the word "chicken" appears in a document or the word "hammer" appears in a document, or how many times the words "hammer" and "chicken" co‑occur in the same sentence or paragraph or so on. But now, in the world we live in, people are so wired‑‑we all have Blackberries; we've got Treos and the equivalent devices; we use IM‑‑with the result that email, and even informal memos, are a whole lot less formal and less long than they used to be. So, what our technology is all about is weaving together these different, smaller items into a searchable object that's meaningful. So, what we've done is changed the boundary of search. So search, for us, is no longer about an email or an IM or a phone‑rep message; it's about the dialog that can be put back together with our algorithms. To give a concrete example of this, while it's become a bit hackneyed at this point; let's say you have a message, of whatever form, whose entire content is just, "Yes, let's do it." Well, what does that mean? Larry: [laughs] Elizabeth: Does it mean, "Let's go commit securities fraud"? "Let's go embezzle that 300,000 bucks"? Or maybe it just means, "Let's go fishing." Right? How are you going to know? It used to be that the answer was in the same document. Now the answer may be two or three documents or items away. And that's what our company's all about. Lucy: Well, it is really interesting. And I think the algorithms must really be pretty fascinating. Larry: Boy, I'll say. One thing I can't help but wonder, just as kind of an opening question, is how did you get into technology? And then maybe a second part of that question is what do you think is really cool today, in addition to what you're doing? Elizabeth: How I got into technology, originally, as a child? My father is an electrical engineer and very, very much, I think, pushed me that direction, initially‑‑especially since I was an only child, so I was his one opportunity. But when I was in college at the University of Michigan, they had a program in mathematics that was trying to subvert what everybody at the time thought was almost just a law of nature, which was the fact that no significantly original, or significant period, mathematics had ever been done by anybody over the age of 27. Lucy: I remember that. Elizabeth: So somebody endowed the University of Michigan with a program to try to push promising mathematicians through their PhDs, with a little bit more time before their brain turned to mush at the age of 27. And the program was so much better than anything else that was out there that, even though I had no intentions of being a math major when I entered college, within a few months it was pretty clear that that's what I was going to do. And that's what I did. Larry: Wow. Lucy: Theoretical mathematics degree. That's amazing. Lee: It is. Elizabeth: People don't believe me now. They assume I must be a lawyer because of the field that my company is currently operating in. [laughter] Lucy: And just as a follow‑up with that, as you look out into the technology spaces today, what, in addition to some of the things that you're working on at Cataphora, are you thinking personally are just really cool? Elizabeth: This is going to sound a little silly, perhaps, but I think there's going to be a lot more things out there like this. I don't know if any of you guys have a Roomba‑‑you know the robotic little cleaning vacuum... Larry: [laughs] Lucy: In fact, Helen Greiner has been one of our interviews as well, from iRobot. Elizabeth: It's a wonderful thing. And I think that they could have done more, in terms of making it more, I don't want to say cutesy, but something that would maybe appeal to a broader set of people. I actually bought it for my husband for his birthday just because I thought he'd think it was cool. Larry: [laughs] Elizabeth: And I think that home robotics that actually do something useful, that are engaging and are not ridiculously expensive, I think, are a big area. I think there's still a lot to be done, obviously, in the area of search, apart from what Cataphora is doing. It's not uncommon, in the work that we do‑‑which is, at this point, mostly investigation and litigation‑‑to get literally 10 million items or more for a case. And these are not Enron‑like cases; these are more run‑of‑the‑mill sorts of cases. Lucy: Wow. Elizabeth: And so, while we're right now focused on the enterprise aspects of it and the legal aspects of it, there are obviously the personal information management of it all that I think is a really interesting problem. And some of the social networking stuff, I think, while a lot of it is somewhat trivial, some of it's really quite interesting. If you can build special‑interest groups for different types of research, or for people who are really expert or compassionate about a certain, very specific kind of thing, I think that's technology very well used. Lucy: I agree. It's huge. And it's changing so many things: the way people market, the way people find out what their interested in. It's amazing. Larry: Hmm. Lucy: Well, Elizabeth, you mentioned your dad as an EE, and he had influenced you into technology. What made you become an entrepreneur, and what about being an entrepreneur makes you tick? Elizabeth: In my case, those who have watched me progress, especially since I've come out to Silicon Valley‑‑because I'm from Michigan originally‑‑I think would say that it had to do with the fact that I was, again and again, in situations in much larger companies where I could see that the company was in decline, and there really was nothing much that I could do about it. And I wanted to have a center of excellence around me. I wanted to do work that I was proud of. I wanted to be working someplace where it was good to get up in the morning and go to work. And that sort of drove me to wanting to roll my own. For example, I joined Hewlett‑Packard at the point that it was starting to decline, and saw what that looked like, and it was just a very frustrating place to be. And it was interesting for me to see the "Wall Street Journal" extensive coverage of the firing of Carly Fiorina, and they were noting that many of these problems really pre‑dated her, even if she exacerbated some of them. And I was just so happy to see that, after 10 years, that now it was out in the open. But yeah, I spent a good several years there, and similarly joined Sun at the point it was arguably starting to decline. And I felt that I could do a better job, and I wanted to do a better job, even if at a smaller scale. Lucy: So, in terms of entrepreneurship, many people have mentors or people who influence them along the way. And we were just curious who your role models are. Who influenced you, and how did they influence you? Elizabeth: As an entrepreneur in different ways, John Nesheim‑‑the guy who writes the books on startups, he's best well‑known for writing the book, "High‑Tech Start Up" which here in the Valley is considered the Bible for starting a startup‑‑is an adviser of the company and is a really great mentor. At this point, he really spends his life teaching high‑tech entrepreneurial ship at Cornell, and writing books about it and advising a few companies. So he's seen many, many, many variations of the movie. He's very wise, and he's always willing to help. Julie Wainwright, who was the much‑maligned CEO of Pets.com during the bubble, I think is a really good person, and has a lot to offer in terms of, well, when you take a fall, you get back up on the horse‑‑has a great deal of personal grace and elegance. And Philippe Courteaux, who hired me into their elite, who I believe is the only four‑time successful CEO in Silicon Valley history. Obviously, there's a huge amount to learn from. Larry: Wow. I was not aware of that fact. I'm going to have to look more up on that. Lucy: You've got another book to read. Larry: Yeah, I do. Two other books... Lucy: [laughs] Two other books. Lee: That's an impressive list of mentors. Larry: Boy, I'll say. Elizabeth, I do have to point out that I was born in Michigan, so I understand. But I chose Colorado. I wanted to be surrounded a bunch of really neat people in a wonderful climate. Lucy: [laughs] Little plug there for Colorado. Larry: Little plug. Elizabeth, if you were to look back at the different things that you've been through‑‑and I'm sure you've had a couple of the tough moments‑‑what's maybe the toughest thing that you had to live through during your career? Elizabeth: Unfortunately, there's more than one... Lucy: Like or us all. Elizabeth: This is my second company. My first company was during the bubble, and we ended up having to sell it after the individual VC left the VC firm after the bubble burst‑‑at the point that many venture capitalists were no longer getting along with one another. And that was very, very difficult, not just because it was failure in some sense, even though we ultimately were able to sell it and at least get everybody a job, but because it was so unfair, in the sense that we had met all of our goals, we had exceeded some of our goals, and there was an exogenous failure event, as one person put it. And that's very difficult to explain to people who have really put their heart and soul into something. Obviously, it was a very difficult time, yet one of the things I am most proud of was that many of those same, original people joined this company, Cataphora, and made it possible for us to get to the point we are now‑‑which is to say we're a 100‑employee company in the Valley that has never taken a dime of investment from anybody, not even ourselves. Lucy: And I noticed that in some of the information on the web about your company. And I can really empathize with some of these unfair events in the world of startups. I was on the board of a company where a venture capitalist, in a Series B round, backed away at the very last minute, when, if that company had chosen to just bring more partners to the table originally, the company could have kept going. And as a result, gone. Larry: Yep. Lucy: That can be very, very hard. Elizabeth: I think that, as a practical matter, one of the things that very few people understand about the startup world is that there is very, very, very little‑‑and in fact, arguably no‑‑accountability on the part of the investors. Lucy: So it's clear you've been through a lot of challenges. Elizabeth: Yes. Lucy: If you were sitting with a young person and giving them advice about entrepreneurship, what kind of advice would you give them? Elizabeth: Something, actually, that is very much stressed on John Nesheim's site, at least when last I looked, which is that if failure will completely destroy you, you should not go down this path. Lucy: Hmm. Larry: Good point. Elizabeth: Kind of an odd thing to say, perhaps, on a website of that nature. But it's a very important one, I think, because, statistically, depending on whose numbers you believe exactly, 99 percent of all startups fail. It depends at what point you start measuring. At what point does the startup become significant enough that it exists? Does it have to incorporate? Does it have to have people spending significant amounts of time on it? Where does conception occur? If you want to look at it that way. No matter how you measure it, the vast, vast, vast majority fail‑‑some for avoidable reasons, some for unavoidable reasons. Some were perhaps ill‑conceived. But for whatever the reason, statistically, you're very, very likely to fail. And if you can't accept that initially, then it's perhaps better to stay in that larger company, then to go out there and follow somebody else who's taking the load on their shoulders more than you are on yours. Lucy: And so I'm sure you have a network of friends who are in various stages of startup companies. And if they fail, what do you tell them to console them? Elizabeth: The main thing I say is, hopefully, you learn something from it, whether it's something to do with things to do again, things to avoid doing. If at all possible, what you learn about yourself, what you learn about other people that you are in the endeavor with. And you, at this point, have to make a real decision, not a knee‑jerk one, as to what you now want to do. Lucy: Well, and I think that that's very wise advice. I'm sure that that wisdom is part of what has given you your success as an entrepreneur. What other characteristics do you have that you think have given you advantage? Elizabeth: I would certainly say that one of them is persistence and discipline. So that's two, but obviously they're interrelated. Levelheadedness is something that I always tell people at Cataphora is a huge, huge, huge component to startup success because, without it, it's almost impossible to take the long view of anything. If you can't take the long view, then you're not going to last very long. The former VP of marketing here at my last company said, "Well, the startup experience is like a roller coaster, but with the key difference that when you're high, you're on the top of the roller coaster." You can either make $800 million or dominate the world. The reality is that you're not actually as high as you think you are. But the inverse is also true. When you're at the low part of the roller coaster, you're probably not as badly off as you feel that particular day. And trying to avoid riding the roller coaster, I think, is a really critical part of success. Obviously, there's passion for it. I think people greatly underrate the importance of leadership, character flexibility, and all those traits that make other people follow that person into the fire. Lee: And they have to want to follow you, especially in the startup world. Elizabeth: Exactly. Larry: Boy, I tell you what, you mentioned earlier that many people joined your company that you have today that were with the other company. That really does say a lot about you and the management team you put together. Lucy: So, Elizabeth, considering this is the second startup you've done, how do you bring balance into your personal and professional lives? Because we all know startups are seven by 24. Elizabeth: Nobody ever likes this answer, but the truth of it is you can't do both. Maybe at some point you can, but startups are 24 by 7, so either you have enough people at the right positions to really delegate everything to you in such a way that you can not have to work massive numbers of hours. But I've never really seen that happen in practice. I do work less than I did two or three years ago. Probably a year or two from now, I'll work a little bit less. But if you want 40 or 50‑hour weeks, startups, but especially being a startup CEO, is not for you. I do make sure I exercise and do yoga and make some time for the things that I really have to. Fortunately, my husband works here, so that is a simplifying assumption. Lucy: [laughs] That is something that you do to bring balance. Make sure that you employ your husband. Larry: One of the things that author, John Nesheim, had brought up about, "If failure is going to crush you, " or something to that effect, I think the idea is, also, if the entrepreneur has this fear of failure, that's what they really also have to avoid. Lucy: Right. So, Elizabeth, you've really achieved a lot in your career so far. What's next for you? Give our listeners a little hint of what you're thinking about for the future. Elizabeth: Well, we think Cataphora is a great opportunity. As anybody who's been out there in the tech world knows, it's not just a matter of having a really good idea; it's also the timing of it. Timing is everything in these things, and so we intend to stick with this for quite a while. And who knows? Maybe my next one will have to do with robots. Larry: [laughs] Elizabeth: But right now, I am very much focused on making Cataphora the next big software company. And I think it can be. And that's what I'm looking forward to doing. Lucy: Well, and in fact, with the robots, we'll make sure that you and Helen get together. Larry: [laughs] Lucy: Helen has shown us little pictures of Roombas in costumes and things like that, which are pretty exciting. So, we really do want to thank you, Elizabeth, for your time. We know you're busy. And I know our listeners will really appreciate hearing your views on entrepreneurism. I wanted to also congratulate you on your "Fast Company" Fast 50 article. It was a great picture. I loved it. The caption, like, "So don't mess with Elizabeth Charnock, CEO of Cataphora." Larry: That's why we were so gentle to begin with. [laughter] Lucy: We really do appreciate your time. Thank you very much. And I wanted to remind listeners where they can find this podcast. It's at www.ncwit.org. And it will also be syndicated on... Larry: www.w3w3.com. Lucy: And please make sure you pass this podcast along to a friend. Thanks very much, Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Thank you. Lee: Bye‑bye. Larry: See you soon. Bye‑bye. Series: Entrepreneurial HeroesInterviewee: Elizabeth CharnockInterview Summary: Starting with a good idea and a group of four kitchen-table employees, and funded entirely by revenues from clients (without any outside investment), Elizabeth Charnock has guided Cataphora into a profitable company with three consecutive years of at least 100% growth in revenue, customers, and employee head count. Release Date: July 24, 2007Interview Subject: Elizabeth CharnockInterviewer(s): Lucy Sanders, Larry Nelson, Lee KennedyDuration: 17:34