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In this episode of Building Texas Business, I welcomed Jen Sudduth, CEO of Sudduth Search, for an insightful discussion on her journey in the executive search industry. Jen shared her story of transitioning from Taylor Winfield to launching her boutique firm focused on transformative growth companies. I learned how Sudduth Search crafts a supportive work culture that prioritizes both productivity and well-being. Our dialogue also uncovered nuances around balancing work responsibilities with life's pleasures. As we wrapped up, Jen reflected on life lessons from mentorship to her commitment to the Special Olympics community SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Jen Sudduth shares her transition from Taylor Winfield to founding Sudduth Search, focusing on middle market private equity and emphasizing the need for leaders who can drive change. We explore the importance of having a business and marketing strategy before starting a venture, as well as considering when to hire based on company growth and values alignment. Strategies for maintaining work-life balance in recruitment are discussed, including setting boundaries and fostering a culture that supports employee well-being alongside business success. The episode delves into the comprehensive selection process for executive search, particularly for pivotal roles such as CFOs, and the role of retained search firms in this process. Jen reflects on the role of empathy in leadership and the importance of mentorship, drawing from her own experiences and her involvement with the Special Olympics. Personal joys, such as a preference for Tex-Mex cuisine and planning for sabbatical destinations like Maine and Santa Fe, are shared as part of achieving a joyful living. The conversation covers the initial opportunistic hiring during COVID and the shift towards a more strategic hiring approach to raise the team's overall expertise. Chris and Jen discuss the benefits of leaving a company the right way, honoring agreements, and how transparency can lead to unexpected opportunities. Jen advises on the importance of planning for success, not just the startup phase, by having operational projections and growth strategies in place. The episode also touches on Jen's past experience as Director of Talent at a consultancy, highlighting how internal hiring insights can improve external recruitment advice. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About Sudduth search GUESTS Jen SudduthAbout Jen TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In today's episode, you will meet Jen Sudduth, co-founder and CEO of Sudduth Search, a boutique executive search firm. Jen's advice to aspiring entrepreneurs is to be intentional and purposeful in your business planning, and don't forget to plan for success. Okay, jen, first off, welcome to Building Texas Business. Thanks for being here. Jen: Thank you. Chris: So I'm excited to have this conversation with you today. I want to start by just allowing you to introduce yourself and tell us what your company, Sudduth Search, is known for. Jen: Sure. So we are a seven-person boutique executive search firm, but I think what we do is a little bit unique. We work with the middle market private equity. Probably 75% of our clients are private equity backed. The other are public, private you name it individually owned, it doesn't matter. I think the common denominator with all of them is that all of the companies are going through some sort of transformation, and most of the time that's growth. It could have been that they raised capital. That's a trigger to bring us in and go and replace some of your leadership team. Could be some of our bigger companies going through some sort of culture change. We did 10 positions for a Blackstone-backed company and basically they wanted to pull from outside of their industry and they didn't know how to do that, and so we helped them come up with a concept of how to do that completely, you know, changed their recruiting processes from how they were doing them before, and then they brought in a whole new culture and that's what they wanted. They wanted a different culture than they had before. So it's just, it doesn't matter what the trigger is, but it's usually some sort of change, transformation. You need a leader that can drive that change right. You need someone that is fearless. A lot of times that can come in, and they're you. You know they can make things happen. Right and that's where we play most of the time. Chris: Well, what I find interesting about that is how laser focused it is what inspired you to kind of start a search firm that was so focused on that kind of niche industry. Jen: So I've actually done it for over 20 years and the firm I was with before was called Taylor Winfield. I only bring that up because a lot of people know Taylor Winfield. I started with Taylor Winfield and kind of worked my way up and that's what they focused on. They were more. You know that was 2000, so there was a lot of venture money out there, there was Silicon Valley and they worked a lot in California we did. I was just a lowly junior recruiter back then and that's where I learned the business and that's where I kind of learned that world. And it's not for everyone, both as a candidate and as a recruiter, because sometimes candidates will go well, what are they going to sell? Am I going to still have a job? I'm like, well, you're really not, you're not right for this, because that's not the mentality that we look for in a candidate. But so that's how I got my start and that's how I learned it. And then when I started this up my practice five years ago, I kind of I don't do a whole lot of venture. I have a few here and there. Usually they're a little bit more mature as a company. I think. As I've aged I'm not as patient with the venture. I think they've got a great thing going. But it's just a different world and I think sometimes those, the people that are willing to go and do something really earlier stage, are not the same people that I'm looking for the middle market series, b series, c type folks. So so that's how I had got into. It was really that's kind of what I've done my whole career. Chris: Gotcha. Well, I know that you started this company Suddeth Search around five years ago. Jen: Exactly. Chris: So you had to make some decision to leave and just start fresh on your own. Let's talk about that a little bit. What drove that decision? Jen: So the company that I worked for was actually owned by and I don't usually say this, so you're getting new information here by my stepmother, connie Adair, and I bring that up because she's fully retired now. She's been retired for about two years. But she brought me into the business, not as a multi-generational business. I had to earn my keep, earn my way Right, just like everyone else. She was very big on treating me like everyone else. Chris: The benefit for you that she did that. Jen: Absolutely and I learned from the best. She was really known as one of the best in the industry so I kind of got to see that world and that process. But she sold to private equity and it was a private equity roll up. Like some of them, it didn't go really well. The integration piece was a little rough. Chris: Not unique in that regard, right and I got no benefit from it. Jen: To be quite honest. I stuck around to try to support her and she did well. And then she got another bite of the apple and I tried for two years. I wasn't a big company person and I realized if I can make this kind of money for someone else, I should be doing it for myself. And so I kind of did it because I could, and she fully supported me. She knew that retirement was on the horizon and so when I told her she said you know, I think you should go for it. So that's what I did. Chris: That's great. Well, I mean good to have that encouragement for someone that you were close with but considered to be a trusted mentor Absolutely. So got to be a little bit trepidatious to just start out on your own, even though you know what you're doing and you, I think you can't do that unless you have confidence that it's going to work and confidence that it will work isn't a guarantee that it will Absolutely. But you know what were some of the things you did to kind of set yourself up in those early days of starting your own company, to try to pave the path towards success. Jen: So I will start with the fact that I had a very strict non-compete. I did not get any clients from the company or from her, and I am a devout follower of non-competes. Chris: Well, it's funny, you say that you bring that, yeah, you know, now we devise people, I mean literally every day, on both sides of those, and right because because they exist and obviously you know there's a lot of buzz recently because the ftc came out with the rule to ban them, uh, which is, you know, probably not going to take effect because lawsuits have already been filed to challenge it. Jen: But it's going to be interesting to see how that plays out yeah in the next, over the next few years, I think yeah, and not to say I don't think some non-competes go overboard. I have heard some ludicrous non-competes as I'm interviewing, so sure, I do think a lot of them go overboard. I think the fdc is in the is moving in the right direction with some of them, because I think they're a little too restrictive. Chris: But that's not your question yeah, and even as the rule's written, it doesn't apply to executives, so it wouldn't change your world. Jen: It wouldn't, and I'd been there a long time. Everything I got was under their umbrella. So what I did do was I planned for a long time. I've owned businesses before and so I had a business plan, I had a marketing plan, I had a strategy. The other advantage I had was that I had been I've been asked to be on the board of ACG and so that was a. I knew that was going to be great PR. It's gonna be great relationships there. That's how I met Steve Kasten here at the Boyer Miller and a few others, and so I knew that was coming. But it was pretty far out. You know my tenure had just started. Didn't know I was gonna be president, but I knew that was gonna be on the. I'd have a lot of visibility. So that helped quite a bit. I think that was one factor. Fun story unrelated to your question the day before I quit, the day before my last day, I gave like four months notice and they knew I was leaving. I was unwinding. I had some really big searches, so I was unwinding those and finishing those up for clients, kind of on the bench, but just doing that. So the day of the last day of employment I get a call from that client that I just mentioned wanted to change their culture Blackstone Back Company. He said I got 10 searches for you, jim. I said, well, I can't do them, I'm leaving, today is my last day. And he's well, I'm not doing it without you. And so I called the company and I said here's what's happening. Would you, would we, can we do a fee split? Didn't know that was coming, but that was really great cash flow. And they said yes, and so we worked out a fee split. I continued I worked with that client and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And and then they brought in their team, but it was great cash flow right out of the gates. And then I developed brand new clients from that point on. But I knew the industry. I think the industry knew me. Chris: So even if it wasn't somebody, I'd worked before, I had a plan and I went after those people. That's a really cool story to hear and there's a lesson. There's probably many lessons, but one that just struck me right between the eyes is the lesson in leaving the right way, when you leave a company versus leaving the wrong way and you just laid out a roadmap for the listeners. If you're thinking about leaving, you left the right way, honoring your agreements, and then, with the transparency to get the slug of business for your new business, for your new company, because you went to them and said here's the deal, because you've done everything else right. It's good to hear that. I guess they could have not honored that, but they did the right thing in my mind too, yeah, by saying yeah, it'd be fair to share this and, by the way, we should. Customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. Jen: So customer comes first. That's what they want. Let's make them happy. So, yeah, and I completely agree and I try to tell people and I know there's exceptions, I know there's bosses that are just difficult and if they know you're even looking there, you're gone. I know that happens, but I think majority of the time people are reasonable and if you come to them and sometimes I'll have friends come to me and say I'm thinking about making a change- Grass is greener Right and I'm like I know they're in a great situation. I'm like have you had a really difficult conversation with your boss before you leave, before you start thinking about? Have you told them that you're unhappy You've been there? Chris: 14 years or you've been there seven years. Jen: Have you talked about it? And usually the answer is no, and so I try to encourage them to say go talk to them first and then if it's still you know, in a month you still feel like it's just not fulfilling then talk about leaving. Yeah, but you need to give them a chance. Chris: It's great advice. People unfortunately right. It's kind of human nature to avoid the difficult, uncomfortable conversation, or at least I'll say this, the ones we perceive have it that they're going to be difficult or uncomfortable. And to your point, I think, a lot of times if you actually have the courage to go have it, they usually aren't as difficult or uncomfortable as you work them up in your mind to be. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: And you know I can speak. You know as well as you can. If you give your employer, where you've been otherwise happy for a while, the chance to have that conversation most people if there's a tweak or two that would keep you there, it's probably going to save the company a ton of money. To consider that. Jen: And it might benefit the company. Talk to them about. You know I'd really like to do more sales. You know I'd really like to take on bigger projects. You know what We've been looking for someone that wants to take on bigger projects. You just never know what the company needs. Chris: So we can go back. You mentioned, and just for the listeners ACG Association of Corporate Growth. Jen: Yes. Chris: Indice Group industry in the kind of M&A, a lot of private equity. So sounds like part of that marketing plan was to plug yourself in to the right kind of networking system where you would meet people and build relationships. Jen: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, and I eventually was asked to be president I don't know if you know that and so it was a lot of it was a lot of visibility as well. That's half the battle. Chris: Yes. Jen: Because there's a lot of top of mind search firms out there. Yeah, getting top of mind and helping them see that. I understand private equity, I understand what their challenges are. I understand what they're trying to achieve. I understand how capital's raised. You know I've got the knowledge base to be able to convey that to candidates and to help find the right one that's going to fit that. So I think that helped a lot and it's it was educational for me. You know, going to conferences, hearing panels speak. I know a lot about a lot or a little about a lot. Chris: Let me rephrase that I shouldn't admit that, but it's true, but it does. Jen: It's real educational to hear those conversations and to hear what's happening in the market. You know from your peers that are in the organization. Chris: A couple other takeaways from what you said. That I hope people listening caught is that you had a plan before you did this right, absolutely. You sat down and put it to paper a business plan, a marketing plan, a strategy. Look, I think those are so important and can be overlooked. When people say, look, I'm just going to go chase this dream, that's great because you need the inspiration, but you also need some substance behind it, because if you eventually do go to and most will go to a bank or an investor or something, they're going to be asking about that. So you better be prepared. Jen: Absolutely. Chris: So one of the things and you and I were talking about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know about this, I guess before we got the recording going, and that is you know, you now have seven employees. Let's talk a little bit about you know. I think there's a few conversations. One is what was it that triggered you each time to make the decision Now it's time to take on an employee or another employee, because those are big investments and then how did you go about making sure they were the right fit? Jen: Yeah. So it was growth that predicated the need. That was the part I didn't plan was when am I going to hire what? You know what? At what point do we need to bring on another person? At what point do we need to bring on a junior person, et cetera, et cetera. I didn't plan that piece of it and I probably should have, but it was really just my bandwidth and being able to do what I needed to do. You know, we were super busy during COVID, which sounds really strange, but I had some. I had that one big client that was still going. I had just so, if you think about I had been in business for about a year and so that year I had been really busy doing marketing and business development and getting out there and making relationships, and so it just it paid off and I think a lot of those people one of my biggest clients I don't know if you know Dave Marchese, he'd be a good guest. Let's do it. He called me out of the blue in the middle of COVID and we had met like five years prior, but he had seen my posts and my marketing and my emails and so he said I can't go out. I'm not going to go out and interview five interview candidates, but we're in the or excuse me search firms because we're in the middle of COVID. So what you got Jen, and so I took it on, and we've probably done 15 different positions over three or four years. Wow, so he's one of our biggest clients. So there that, I think the prior relationships definitely helped us make it. You asked about employees, though. Chris: Yes, well, before we go there. Yeah, one of the things you so interesting. You said I didn't plan for growth. Yeah, probably should have. Jen: Yeah. Chris: So, looking back, what do you think you could have done in that regard that you might offer as advice to someone that you know is maybe about to do something similar that you did five years ago? You know, what have you learned? Looking back, to say I would have, if I was going to do it again, I would plan for growth in this way. Jen: Plan for success. I think I was so focused on how am I going to get there that I didn't say if, when I get there, if when I get there, how am I going to get to the next level? I never did that. I never said, okay, I can handle 12 searches, or whatever it is, at different in different phases. So if I get 14, what do I do? At what point do I, you know? Do I need to start hiring when I get to 9 searches, whatever it? So maybe it was a revenue. I think I should have projected and said, because I've been in the business a while, I know how many searches I can do by myself or with a team, and so I think that would have been very helpful to do kind of like an FB&A analysis, but on the operational side. Chris: Right, Very helpful, that's very helpful. Okay, so now let's go back to kind of set a search. You starting to decide I've hit the point, I can't do this all, I've got to bring someone on. Yeah, you know how did you go about sourcing. I know obviously you've probably had a lot of contacts, but you know just the whole process of how you interviewed to make sure they were going to be a good fit for your company. Jen: So my first hire, I got really lucky because she was a neighbor, a friend who got laid off during COVID and so we brought her on just to do some of this data pushing type stuff. She made phone calls, cold calls, she's fearless, and then she grew into being a really good recruiter. After that first hire it was, oh my God, I can't handle this. I just need a body that can help do, a professional person that can do all this. After that hire I was much more purposeful. After that it was we want experience. We want, you know, degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand you know degree Now she was degreed. But we want degreed individuals that understand the business world, that understand, you know. I think every time I made another hire I kind of elevated my expectations. Chris: Right. Jen: And not to say the first hire was. She was a phenomenal employee, but I think every time after that I was much more purposeful about how I, who I wanted to hire and what my expectations of them were. Chris: Yeah, that makes sense to me and you're right, it's not a condemnation of the earlier hires. It's if you're doing things right, I believe you're always learning and your processes can always get better, and it doesn't mean you didn't make bad hires before, but you can get more intentionality around the decisions you're making and I think that's part of growth and when you're a one person show or two because my husband did join me about six months in it's harder to attract talent you know, Now we're about to make an offer to a pretty senior person and we had a really good slate of people that were interested, that were like, yeah, I want to join a boutique firm, I want to do what you're doing. Jen: So it changes too. Advert: Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom. And thanks for listening to the show. Well, that's validating. So you've gone through this process of sourcing people for your company, right, and what have you? What has that process and the learning? Jen: through that done to help you better advise your clients or vet candidates for them. What else about that I'm actually gonna go back to. So I took about five years. I left the executive search world and went to a consultancy and they I was director of talent. We tripled in size in about five years time and then they sold to Accenture about two years after I left. When I left, I think oil and gas was zero. The barrel, the barrel. Chris: I remember that yeah. Jen: So they made a strong comeback and then eventually sold. But being on the inside like that was the best education I could get, because it was. This is what happens when you make a really bad hire. This is what happens to the entire company when you make a really good hire. And we weren't huge I think we ended up being about a hundred but but it was really helpful to me to see. I also learned you know really short tenures on people's resume. There's a reason you know, I know there's reasons that people have to leave jobs absolutely there's good reasons, but when it's over and over and over, and then you hire that person because you're desperate for a data manager or whatever it is. You're desperate for that skill. You're going to find out why they can't stay in a job longer. I learned a lot being on the inside, you know, and I think that job is really what taught me kind of the hard knocks of making a mishire. Chris: Right. Well, I think you're to your point, right, it's if you look there are red flags, pay attention to them, and I know from our we're not perfect either in this business that I have, and you know sometimes you can convince yourself to overlook a red flag here or there, and more times than not you shouldn't. Right, there's exceptions to every rule, but we don't want to run a business based on exceptions necessarily You've got to be purposeful about those hires is really what it taught me. Jen: You know very purposeful. Chris: So just to kind of come back to Sutter's search a little bit so you have seven, about to have eight, and you talked about doing a search for a client where it was a culture change. Let's talk about culture at Sutter Search. What are you, as the kind of co-founder and CEO, doing to try to cultivate a culture? How would you describe it? And what are you doing to kind of, you know, foster it and breathe life into it? Jen: Yeah, it's hard with seven people, eight people, you know, to kind of create that, because you're like oh, we're just eight people, but they need it. Employees need training, they need to be developed, they need to evolve, they need to expand and grow, and so we actually started EOS at the beginning of this year. Are you familiar with entrepreneurial operating system? Chris: Yes. Jen: I think I don't know if Allie was the one that told me about it, but you know I've heard a lot of business owners that have done it, and so we actually started it and I think it's been evolutionary and I'm not selling it, I don't sell anything they do but it has really helped us be very purposeful about what we're doing for our employees, and so my one of our other managing directors is. She's in charge of kind of the HR and training, and so we have a weekly training every single week and it's sometimes it's heavier than others, but we have a weekly training every week and one of the employees actually gives it, so they have to go out and learn themselves and then they come and teach the rest of us. I try to. I'm a big advocate in the old school headhunting world is just dog eat, dog work, and so when I started my firm I was like I don't want to be that way. We're not working 12-hour days, we're not working both coasts, we're going to have a great and I hate to use the words work-life balance because I know it's overused. Chris: That's right. Jen: But we are, we're going to edit that part out. I'm kidding it is overused, but I think in some aspects it's important because you're a better employee if you take your vacation, if you didn't have to work until 9 pm the night before, if your managing director isn't calling you at 6 in the morning because she happens to be on the East Coast that is not the culture that we have. I'm always telling them you're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your emails? You're going on vacation. Who's taking your calls? Did you put your out of? We require out of office messages to be turned on and I'm just, I'm always preaching that. I really think it's important to separate yourself and give your brain a break, because what we do is very, it's very repetitive, it's very. You know you may, if you have ten searches, that you have four candidates at least on what we usually have a hundred, but you have four finalists going through to offer yeah you think about the ups and downs every single day. Chris: It's a lot well, I mean, to your point, what you're doing, I mean, has to be stressful because you're affecting people's lives. Absolutely right, you got four candidates and or maybe see this as a great opportunity and are very hopeful, and you got a, a client, that needs to fill a hole and every day they don't have that whole field, they're losing money. So I can get that yeah to your point, the work-life balance and we could do a whole podcast on that. But I think what my experience has shown, or at least what I feel like I've learned through that, is our work-life balance is different at different times of our career. So it's hard to institutionalize that when everyone's at different stages. We try to use the term more like professional development. Developing our people to be great professionals means you tend to your business, but you tend to you have a life as well and you got to figure out how to manage both in a healthy way, knowing that the way it works for me now is totally different than it was 15 years ago right and that's okay because everything changes and we have new employees here that are going through totally different life stuff than I go through now. but how do we help give them the tools, the training to manage that and still be successful both in the office and in their personal life? Jen: Yeah, and we do we have different? Everybody kind of has a different work methodology. I shouldn't say hours, it's more like hours, you know a 20-something. They like to kind of work late in the day and have their workouts in the morning or whatever. Like everybody's kind of different. And then Hazel and I are about the same age and we like to not be disturbed until 8.30 or something. You know, like we like to go do our thing in the morning and work out and whatever. Read the paper and everybody's a little different, but we are very understanding of each other's different lifestyles. Right To your point. Chris: The key there comes to communication right. Yeah absolutely Absolutely, and so do you have. What is it that you're using as such to make sure those conversations are happening? Yeah, so that people understand how each other works differently, but together you can work for success. Jen: Yeah, we talk about it when they're hired. I say I'm not going to track your hours unless your productivity is not working Right, and then we're going to talk about it. Do you have too of a workload? Or, let's be honest, are you not working enough? You know, because last week you didn't have very many searches. This week you've got a lot. So if I need you to work till six, you gotta admit that last week you didn't have to. And they're very honest with me. A lot of times they'll say, hey, not going to be online until 10 or so, but I'm going to be working late or whatever. Or I stayed up for four hours last night sourcing. So you know I'll be available on phone but I'm not online. Perfectly okay, and we're very flexible that way. It's a little hard sometimes. You know, I'm always like are you working? I'm on the back of my brain and then I have to call myself and go. Of course they are, it's not producing. Chris: So that comes down to two fundamentals no matter what industry, communication, yeah, and what you're willing to do is have what some people might feel like is the harder conversation or uncomfortable conversation, but you approach it with kind of support and transparency. Jen: Yeah. Chris: The other thing. It comes down to productivity. Jen: Yeah, right. Chris: Absolutely. If we're running a business, we're running a for-profit business. We have to be productive to make the business go. So you can't lose sight of that. Some people, I fear at times the extracurriculars overweigh what we do to make our money and what is our. You go into the. This is what fuels our economic engine. We can't lose sight of that. It won't matter how many out-of policies or things we do, we won't have a business to support it. Jen: So it's finding a balance there, right? Yeah, I'd say the common denominator with all my employees is they thrive on success. They thrive on accomplishing things. They're not going to just shut things off if they're not done and they haven't accomplished what they set out to accomplish. They're very driven that way. That's a common denominator. Chris: Very good. So a little bit about your business. So you were saying you know, middle market focused, we're kind of approaching mid-year 2024, which is like just blows my mind that we're, you know, that far into the year already. But you know there are businesses out there that either use services like yourself or maybe contemplating that, and I know, at least in your world there's at least two different ways to go about it Retain, searches or kind of the contingency model. Can you just share maybe a little bit about what each is, the differences, pros and cons, and maybe flow into what a company should consider going one versus the other? Jen: Yeah. So I want to make it clear that I am not pro or con. Either way, I think there's a contingency, there's absolutely a place for it. I have several friends that are in the contingency recruiting world and they say I will never be in the retained world. So there is a place for it and I think if you have a large number of hires, you have a position or a company that is attractive to candidates and you want to get all the resumes you can get and then choose because they want to come to you, that's great. You can use contingency. What we do is a consultancy. So if you're a middle market working with a middle market firm right now, it's a downhole tool. Cfo position this position is critical that they get it right because they have big plans. I'm not going to tell you what those big plans are. They're private equity backed and they have big plans and it's going to happen, but if they don't have a financial expert that can devote time and devote, then it's not going to happen. And so it's critical, and in that situation you absolutely need to find the best person that you can find, and you need to interview a lot of people to make sure that you are choosing the right person, and so that's what we're doing. That's where we come in, and it doesn't have to be a CFO role. We can do. We do VPs and we do directors sure directors but we're going to look at 150 people that we know could do this job, and then we're going to reach out to every one of them and then we're going to interview 20 or 30. I'm going to interview half of those and then I'm going to present and rank the top. So it's not like we're going out and finding five people that are qualified and handing them to you. We're going out and finding 10 times that many maybe not 10 times, but a lot more than that and then finding you the best and ranking those for you to interview. So if it's a critical hire for your company to succeed, I would absolutely recommend retained, because they should be a retained firm, should be a consultancy, they should help you find that person. Chris: So that's really helpful, and hearing you describe it makes the difference very clear for me. I hope for the listeners and what I hear is you're doing a lot more upfront work on the retained side and I guess, as a consumer of these services, you should expect that your retained firm will do a lot more upfront work and vetting the best clients to bring to you. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I think that's important for my clients to know is our database is completely open. Our kimono is open. Is that a bad thing to say? Chris: No, we don't have video, so we're good. Jen: They can see everything we're doing, when we're doing, how we're doing. It's not a we'll talk to you in a month or two and we'll give you three great people. There's no magic thing that happens like that. It's a database they can go in. They can be like ooh, I know that guy and not going to work. Chris: Right, whatever reason, work right, whatever reason. So through, I guess, an online portal that you give them access to. Jen: okay and so it's a process to get to the fine. We meet once a week and I say here's why we chose, here's why we interview these people. What do you think? And a lot of times I'll say you know what? That company doesn't hire well, or they might be an acquisition on the horizon with that company. We can't talk to their people, so we have weekly conversations that get us closer and closer to the best person. And so it's a process, it's a very thorough process that gets us there. But that's 15, 30 minutes a week from our client, that's it. Chris: Okay, Well, they have to be invested, especially in these that are so critical. The positions to fill the client has to be invested. That's right and I like the somewhat. Maybe it's not. It sounds innovative to me that you are creating that opportunity for them to vet and see what's going on whenever they want. Right, but have those weekly check-ins. You know, it sounds like a kind of a white glove service, if you will. Jen: Yeah, and I think a lot of times people are scared, overtained. They're like what if it doesn't? What if you don't find someone? I'm like never happened in the history of 23 years, because we're talking to you and if we're not finding the right people, we're going to pivot, we're going to merge, we're going to figure out why is that happening. Is it the company reputation? Is it our pitch? Is it the way we're describing it? I mean, we're going after the wrong people. We will figure it out. We always fill the positions. Chris: Right Always, because you're invested in it. Right, right, it's not which. Jen: Because it's and it's not a. Here's three resumes, let me know. Chris: Right. Jen: That's not how it works. I got it. Chris: That makes sense. So a little bit, I just want to ask you're obviously, you know, leading this company. What, what would you or how would you describe your leadership style and how would you say that maybe has evolved over time based on your experience? Jen: So I would describe my leadership style as real. It's too real. I like to be pretty open with my employees and I have weekly calls with almost all of them I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly calls with almost all of them, I shouldn't say almost all of them. My fellow managing director we talk almost every day, so I don't have a weekly call with her. But the others, who I may not speak with, I have weekly calls. We talk about what's happening, what's going well, what is their workload like? I ask them what was the most challenging? Because we all work remote, so that's the other thing. We don't see each other every day right and I'll say what was the most challenging thing and what are you most proud of. And sometimes I had no idea. They're like oh well, I met that candidate at that event. I went to one of my. One of my employees told me that I'm like, I had no idea. Like you went to this networking event and happened to meet the right guy. So you know, just things like that. I try to have the communication very open yeah and they can tell me listen, I'm just not feeling well today or I'm mentally having some issues with home. I'm not going to tell you what it is, but I just need to sit back and I'm like, take the time, whatever you need to do. So I like to think I'm a pretty real manager. Chris: Yeah Well, it sounds like there's a lot of empathy that comes across in those calls, so they feel safe. Yeah, empathy, that comes across in those calls so they feel safe, and I think that's an important thing for a leader to be able to show empathy so that people will be more open and responsive, at whatever level your leadership is in the organization, is an important quality. It's interesting too, I think, that you asked about challenges, because I find it to be helpful to if you're kind of forced to reflect on what was really good about the last week and maybe what was a challenge, because we learn from both. Right, well, that's really good. Anything that you mentioned your stepmother earlier as a mentor, any learning from her that you kind of feel like you're implementing today and kind of carrying on some of the things you learned along the way from her Well, she is my free consultant, so you know, so I call her all the time. Jen: I'm like, okay, more free. Chris: Don't let her listen, she might start charging. Jen: She's fully retired, so she's like no problem. No, I think, being a peer to your clients and telling them no, sometimes you know she's not a yes man and I think I learned that, that you know you've got to push back. When you know, because of your 20 years experience, that something's wrong, you have to call the elephant in the room yeah and you have to say you, you may not skip this recruiting. You know, a lot of times my clients will get very excited about a candidate and they're like, well, can you just come see me tomorrow? And I'm like, no, he cannot because that's too fast for the candidate. They need time to process. You look too eager. I had one client that said it. He said I'm not coming to the first date with a diamond ring. You cannot come to the first date with a diamond ring, you have to let the process happen. But she was always very good about not being a yes man and I've learned that works and it pays off to help your clients be successful. Chris: It's funny that works and it pays off for to help your clients be successful. It's funny that reminds me there's an analogy that applies in all kinds of situations. But it's the cake right. So, just like you were saying, don't be too fast. Yeah, you can have all the right ingredients, mix it up, put it in the oven. If you pull it out too quick, it's going to flop yeah right. So you got to let the process, trust the process, let the process play out, and that applies in so many different aspects of business yeah, and these are humans that we're dealing with. Jen: These are people and they weren't thinking about a job change most likely. Chris: So you've got to let that change management process happen in their head, you know, let them go through that as well so good point to make and we'll repeat it that for what you're doing with these targeted executive searches, most likely the right person was not looking. The ones that are looking there could be one of those red flags there, Not always right, not always, but yeah. So, jen, this has been a fun conversation. Congratulations on your success, thank you. I want to ask you just a few things to wrap up. Yep, so obviously you've been in the search world, or executive search world, for you said 20 plus years. What was your first job? Jen: I remember you asked somebody else this, so I actually worked at a daycare for intellectually disabled kids and adults. Not that fun story that you wanted to hear, but it was fun. I absolutely loved it. I worked every summer. 0:36:20 - Chris: There had to be a lot of life lessons learned in that. Jen: Very challenging. These were kids that were not accepted at other daycares, even for special needs kids. And so I made $4.25 an hour. I was just telling this story because now I'm the chairman of the board for Special Olympics. Chris: Are you really? Jen: I am, and so they asked me my why, and I was like well, I did this for about five years, six years, all through college. I did summer camps and stuff, and so that population has a very soft spot in my heart. Chris: I love how that's come full circle in your life to be able to be doing what you're doing with Special Olympics. As an aside and maybe a plug, isn't Houston hosting the Special Olympics? Jen: next year, next year, I did not tell you that you didn't, but I just know we are right at rice, and is it 2025? Yeah, so that's a big deal, so huge those. Chris: Any listeners in houston, be on the lookout to go support that, what a great cause thank you, appreciate that all right. So my favorite question tex-mex or barbecue? Jen: tex-mex. I'm not a barbecue fan. My husband loves it, but I don't. Chris: Well, you know, you had no problem answering that question. Jen: Some people struggle so I love that In Texas only probably Right. Chris: So another question I get travel ideas from. So if you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Jen: Maine. Chris: Maine. Jen: We. If you could do a 30-day sabbatical, where would you go and what would you do? Maine, maine. We went to Maine last year. Oh my God, it's beautiful. We're empty nesters and so we're doing two-week working vacations. We just got back from Santa Fe and then we're hoping the next spring we're going to do Maine. Chris: Good for you. Yeah, I like that, kenny. Jen: Bunk or somewhere around there. Chris: Okay Well, you didn't let me finish a sentence, oh sorry, no, so I know you meant it right. Some people have to think about it. Jen: Oh, I knew. Yeah. Well, we're thinking about where we want to go now, so we've got a whole list. Chris: That's a fun process to go through. Yeah, it is so well, jen. Thanks again for coming. Special Guest: Jen Sudduth.

Join Jen and Meredith Ethington, author of "The Mother Load," as they dive into the weight of the mental load and societal expectations that mothers carry. Discover how Meredith's journey as a recovering perfectionist made motherhood challenging and explore the unrealistic standards placed on mothers that can harm their mental health. They discuss the book's topics, including toxic positivity and the heavy burden of expectations. Don't miss the chance to win a signed copy of "The Mother Load" and get ready to embrace the imperfect beauty of motherhood. --------------------------------------------------------------

Today I'm chatting with my friend Jen Corcoran about how to make your passion part of your business. Jen and I have known each other many years as we are both LinkedIn specialists - and we even met once in real life in London. Most recently we hosted the 'LinkedIn Like We're Human' workshop together which was so fun and people absolutely adored it. In case you missed it you can buy the recording of that 75-minute masterclass for only $27. Jen Corcoran is an award-winning LinkedIn expert. Known as ‘The Super Connector' and one of the UK's most successful LinkedIn trainers, she helps thousands of people thrive online through her online courses, consulting, workshops and talks. Jen helps female entrepreneurs to increase their confidence on LinkedIn by teaching them how to super boost their LinkedIn profile and connect with finesse in order to raise their brand, attract more clients and make more money in a holistic and human way. She is passionate about human design and is a Generator 1/3. In this episode, you'll learn about how to make your passion part of your business as well as... Jen's recent brand transformation - and personal awakening Her new 'niche' that mirrors who she is and how she sees the world of business How she also brought her passion for Human Design into her LinkedIn work How knowing more about their design helps her clients show up on LinkedIn What has changed for her since this transformation, how she communicates differently How she lives her new 'brand' on LinkedIn? What kind of posts etc? Her advice to listeners if they would like to combine one of their passions with their work but don't know where to start. And so much more Jen's Resources   Jen's Website Check out Jen's free resources Connect with Laura on: LinkedIn YouTube   Sarah's Resources Watch this episode on Youtube (FREE) Sarah's One Page Marketing Plan (FREE) Sarah Suggests Newsletter (FREE) The Humane Business Manifesto (FREE) Gentle Confidence Mini-Course Marketing Like We're Human - Sarah's book The Humane Marketing Circle Authentic & Fair Pricing Mini-Course Podcast Show Notes We use Descript to edit our episodes and it's fantastic! Email Sarah at sarah@sarahsantacroce.com Thanks for listening!   After you listen, check out Humane Business Manifesto, an invitation to belong to a movement of people who do business the humane and gentle way and disrupt the current marketing paradigm. You can download it for free at this page. There's no opt-in. Just an instant download. Are you enjoying the podcast?  The Humane Marketing show is listener-supported—I'd love for you to become an active supporter of the show and join the Humane Marketing Circle. You will be invited to a private monthly Q&A call with me and fellow Humane Marketers -  a safe zone to hang out with like-minded conscious entrepreneurs and help each other build our business and grow our impact.  — I'd love for you to join us! Learn more at humane.marketing/circle Don't forget to subscribe to the show on iTunes or on Android to get notified for all my future shows and why not sign up for my weekly(ish) "Sarah Suggests Saturdays", a round-up of best practices, tools I use, books I read, podcasts, and other resources. Raise your hand and join the Humane Business Revolution. Warmly, Sarah Imperfect Transcript of the show We use and love Descript to edit our podcast and provide this free transcript of the episode. And yes, that's an affiliate link. Sarah: Hey Jen, so good to speak to you.  Jen: Lovely to see you, Sarah. Thanks for having me on today.  Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Feel like we just spoken and we did LA we just hosted that, , workshop on LinkedIn, like we're human together last week. Right. And so yeah. Great. We decided, Okay. You know, it's a good idea to also, , kind of host a podcast. But with a bit of a different angle. So we're not actually gonna talk too much about LinkedIn, even though Yeah. That's what you do for a living. But I'm super curious, , about this transformation that I feel like you've gone through in the last, would you say a year or, or so?  Jen: Yeah, definitely a year and definitely this whole year. So 2022.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. So from just seeing and also our conversations via email, but also just seeing your, your posts on LinkedIn, you can kind of see from the outside. Ah, Jen [00:01:00] has been going through some transformation, you know, some in their work, but then that was also reflected in your brand. Right. So kind of tell us about, Transformation, what led you to it? Probably and, and yeah. Where, what you're doing now.  Jen: Yeah. I think it's just, I think when you are a business owner, you're always doing some kind of personal development work to, to get better. Within yourself that will help your business as a whole. So I think just from coaching and networking, I've met some really interesting people over the last few years and one of them was a specialist in human design and I had a mini human design reading where, and I was like, Wow, this is really interesting. I wanna explore more. So got really nerdy. You recommended a great book to me, which I read, and I did a course and kind of dipping my toe in more and more and more and started to do mini [00:02:00] readings from my clients. , so yeah, if just from networking, I met an amazing human design specialist. I'll give her a shout out. Nicole Leno, and she's got an amazing podcast as well. And uh, yeah, she kind of triggered that kind of part of me and. Another thing I discovered over the last year or two during the Covid times really , was that I'm a highly sensitive person, which was pretty eye-opening. I never real, I knew I was a bit sensitive, but I, I had no idea that one in five people was like me. I always thought I was a bit of an oddball on my own and kind of, you know, tried to mirror everybody else around me. Finding out that one in five, you know, whether their male or female is highly sensitive, was just like an epiphany moment. And it was like,  Sarah: where did you say, one out  Jen: of five? Yeah, 20%. Wow. Which I never realized. I, I thought they're not, you know, there can't be that many people like me out there, or that's how I felt. Yeah. So it was really freeing and I was just, Where are these people? Because [00:03:00] I don't really see them, especially on LinkedIn. , there's more of that kind of hustle bro marketing approach. And I was like, we're all sensitive people. I wanna connect with them. All the impacts. So I think, yeah, the combination of the HS p and then the human design have led to my epiphany .  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And that's exactly, I loved, loved it so much how you kind. You know, it made your, uh, , audience participate in that discovery because you were like posting things on LinkedIn. , did you know this about HSPs and so , There's probably a fair amount of your, , followers who discovered at the same time as you did that they are, , highly sensitive people. Yeah, it was really interesting to watch that transformation. And, to me, from the outside looking in, it looks. Your ideal client is now kind of a twin of you or a mirror of [00:04:00] you? . It's  Jen: me, . It's basically another sensitive, so I either an inch pair an empire or a highly sensitive person. So because I just think I didn't have these role models when I was, you know, starting off in business or going into the online space, I modeled. The nonsense of people. And yes, it's worked to a point, but I, yeah, I just wouldn't like really represent the other side of things because I think as sensitives, we are the kind of the quiet nurturers in the background who are not necessarily making the most noise and we're always trying to spotlight other people and , , Nurture from afar. So I feel like yeah, kind of a responsibility to get that side of things out there and to, you know, be somebody for the other sensitives to relate to as well. Because I think a lot of the, the traditional, like non sensitive marketing made me feel like a bit of a failure. It was like I could do it to a point, and then it was [00:05:00] like, why isn't this working for me? I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall. Why does this feel gross? Yeah. Or why can't I do this? Is it because I'm so sensitive? And then you kind of realize, oh, there is another way of doing things . Yeah, totally. But just put that out  Sarah: there. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel right now with your new brand? Because like if you talk. Typical thing of nicheing, , Yeah. You know, how do you define your niche? And, and now really in your words, it's like, well, I am my best ideal client. And so often I have, , kind of new people in business telling me is that even okay? Can we, you know, look at it that way? And I'm like, Yeah, for sure. Because we are creating the solution that we never saw out there. So, So do you see it that way as well?  Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I think for a long time I'm very much an accidental business owner. I never set out [00:06:00] to, to intentionally do this, and it happened by accident. So I think for the first year of my business There wasn't a lot of attention behind what my brand was and who I stood for, and I was helping everyone. And then it got to a point when it was like, Okay, who do I intentionally wanna work with? And then I was, you know, still not super focused. And then it's got to the stage where, who do I like working wear? And it's okay to choose the people that I like because for me, energy is super important and. I'm sure we've all had experiences when we've worked with the wrong people and your energy is totally depleted, like mentally, physically. And I think it got to that point where I thought, you know what, Who says being in business can't be fun? Who says I can't work with the people that I want to, who can give me energy and I can give them energy? So it's kind of, it's taken me a long time. I wish I'd. Got to this realization in the first year of my business, but I think it's taken like five years to actually go, Do you know what? I have the right to choice. It's my business, my rules, and these are the people I choose to support. [00:07:00] Yeah. Um, I think when you first start, you just wanna help everyone, but then you're a bit too generic and a bit too vague, and you're ultimately not helping. And you're not helping yourself either because you're not reaching or connecting with the right people. Sarah: Right? Yeah. No, totally. So, so to me, you really kind of applied humane marketing because not only did you bring more of you to your marketing, so the H S P aspect, but then you also brought in your passion, which is the human design, right? So, yeah. Yeah, really combining things that we think is just. Fitting into the business world. Did you ever ask yourself that question? Can I? Yeah. Who am I to do that?  Jen: Yeah, definitely. And I struggled with it and. , initially, especially with the, Yeah, well, both of them. It was like, Oh, if I start saying I'm as sensitive, well people think, Oh, I don't wanna work with her , what does that mean? And I think there's a lot of misconceptions about, like, do people think I'm constantly [00:08:00] crying and it's like, I don't, I don't cry that much. I cry on something sad, you know, obviously, but I've, I'm not like this overly emotional person, but I think when you say sensitive a lot, there's a lot of misconceptions out there with certain terms and they don't know what that means. So I think for me, I. Explore what that meant as well. What were the pros, what were the cons? And then I started to realize, oh, my sensitivity, the fact that I am an empath is my superpower because I can genuinely like support and nurture those clients that need that help, as opposed to just that, just do it. Approach and people are left kind like, Oh, I need a bit more support, more engagement, more accountability. So it took me a while to kinda lean into that. And then especially with the human design, I did struggle thinking, Woo, is this a bit too woo for people? And then I had to really like at myself and go, You know what? Who says it can't be a bit woo? And then it was like, I think I felt like I'd been. Putting myself in a box, like a marketing box [00:09:00] like everyone else. But it didn't feel quite right. And having discovered the human design, it was like, well, this is the missing piece. And actually, if people know me on a, on an individual level, I've always been quite you. Woo. And I remember even being like, you know, 10 years old and buying books. Capricorn, what does it mean to be a Capricorn? And then, you know what, whatever 20 yard get my life chart read and I am into this kind of thing. So it's been, it's been really interesting integrating this and I, and I'm not fully there yet. I'm very much a work in progress and it's. It's actually typical of my human design. I've learned I'm the type of person has to investigate, do a lot of research, and I'm doing that at the moment. I've given myself the goal of a hundred mini human design readings from my clients, and I think. Once I've ticked off that box in my head, then I'll transition more, a lot more into the, into that in the marketing. So I'm very much in my reset. I wish, [00:10:00] I wish I wasn't one of the, the, like the, the investigators that have to kind of do this, but this is my personality . I have to dig deep before I've got the confidence. Now I've, I know I've done the research, I've done all. Did. Now I feel like I'm gonna talk about this. Whereas I know there's lots of other people who are just like, Okay, I'm an expert. I've done one reading, and here I go. Whereas I have, I feel personally and according to my design, I have to do it the long way. Yeah, it's very much a work in progress, but I'm getting there. I've done, like, I've done 75 mini readings over the summer, which has been really exciting. , I've, it's been great getting to learn everybody's personality, , their makeup and getting their feedback too. And, you know, hearing that it resonates so much, even from like a simple little reading.  Sarah: So how do you combine the two then? Are these still LinkedIn clients and you're just using the human design as kind of a, a way to discover their superpower? Or are they coming [00:11:00] to you only for human design?  Jen: No, they're, they're definitely LinkedIn clients, and then I've done a few Guinea things with friends and family as well. So I'm incorporating it really in terms of. Content and sending dms and what feels natural. So it's very much a, a mini human design reading. I'm not saying, Oh, I'm the ultimate human design expert. It's just, I've taken a kind of a flavor of it, like what I think is really interesting in terms of online marketing and feeding that back. And I think it's given people so much. Insight and then freedom to be themselves and realize, wow, we're not all born to just do it and manifest and initiate Yeah. And I think that that makes a lot of people feel like failure because there's like, Why can't I just do it? And then you kind of read their design and you're like, Ah. Cause you're not built to just do it. It's not  Sarah: being right. Yeah. I, And I love that. I love how. [00:12:00] Call it a mini reading because you're saying, you know, like you said, you know, others go to human design school and I think it takes like a, I don't, can't remember how long, but it, it's pretty intense. And so you're like, No, I'm passionate about this and I know enough to be able to tell you. You know, this is your design and this is how I think now you can use it in, you know, your showing up on, on LinkedIn and, and it's similar to what we do in the marketing, like we're human program and the P of Personal Power. I go, you know, I show them about human design, I show them about the ENEA grant, like everything. We're like, okay, let's just do a lot of personality assessments to really figure out how we're wired and who we are. Yeah. And because like, Showed. And, and that's why I, I loved having you on for this is it's like when you know who you are and how you're wired, then you can really market from within and just show up, [00:13:00] right? Jen: Yeah. And um, you remind me that I have got a book on any grand I've yet to read cuz I like you, I love anything to do with this. So I've done all the disc, the Myers break. That is on my reading list and yeah, it's another good one. Another one to explore.  Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. So what do you feel like has changed, since this transformation? Like do you feel like in your LinkedIn post you show up differently, more confident or. What has changed? Yeah. I think I'm  Jen: just more confident in myself. It's taken away a lot of stress about feeling, and I had to act one way and having that inner struggle, but not quite understanding why I had that inner struggle. because I could do a lot of like nonsensitive things or things that are against my design, but, you know, knowing deep down that things didn't feel. Completely a hundred percent good . And so it's made me kind of go, Oh, okay. That's why that doesn't feel good because my design as a generator is that I'm built [00:14:00] to respond and I, it totally makes sense when I learn that, you know, I can go on LinkedIn any minute of the day and I can respond and do a comment to any post because that's just who I am. And I like giving my opinion and I like sharing like that. And I just, To be in response. So that's really been eye opening as opposed to this kind of, you know, initiation, constantly creating content. I can do it, you know, but I have to be in response to something. So it could be a. We did our amazing workshop on, you know, LinkedIn. Well, we're human and I'll think back and go, Okay, what were the questions that people were asking me? And then I'll go out and make content in response. Mm-hmm. to that. And that feels good because they're general, you know, FAQs, the questions, answers. Whereas I did struggle with just creating content, you know, out of nowhere. So I think, yeah, once you know, Your makeup, like what feels good for you, then you can, Then you can, Yeah. You just feel a lot more free, a lot more happy at [00:15:00] ease. Whereas before, yeah, I just felt a bit more in a box and a bit more pressurizing and I was like, Why can't I do this the way the others do ? And at the surface I probably looked like I was, you know, doing it the same, but it just didn't feel as good deep down. Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. , I feel like. We're talking about the worldview a lot in humane marketing. Like instead of maybe narrowing down your niche, so specifically I, I say bring your worldview to your marketing. do you feel like, Openly saying, you, you talked about the woo does that feel like, okay, this is part of my worldview. That's just how I see things, and whether you agree with that or not, I don't care because this is where I stand for. Yeah.  Jen: Yeah. I think it's important to bring yourself and your two personality to your marketing, because you'll never. , you want to attract the right people and you wanna repel the wrong people. Mm-hmm. . So if somebody doesn't like the woo, they're not my ideal client, and that, and [00:16:00] that's fine. You know? , so I think it's about just leaning into that and realize you are never gonna attract everyone anyway. And, and. Thinking, Well, who do you wanna attract? And if you speak their language, they will come to you. The other people won't be interested. But they will have a very different worldview and a very different way of thinking. Cause I know the two of us, we have a big focus and passion about. Showing up as a human being. So I'd say we're both more excited than the algorithm and the stats and the, the kinda analytical side of it. Obviously we know about it, but it doesn't light me up. We'd ra like, we'd rather a human approach and I think people who resonate with that will come to us. Whereas if somebody is more, you know, interested in the algorithm and the figures, there will be another trainer or consultant that will be the best fit for them and that's fine. They're not my adding client . So I think it's kinda, yeah. , just realizing that you will actually be a lot happier in your business. You will [00:17:00] attract. Far better clients if you lean into who you are. And I know initially I was afraid to do it because you're looking at everyone else and you have feeling you have to be this perfect version of you and then you realize it's kind of all built on a lie. And I think that's how I felt with my business. I'd won all these awards, but I just felt all a bit fake. It was kind of like, I've done your way of marketing, I can do it, but deep doesn't resonate at all. It's like, and it didn't, you know, I didn't always attract the right people to me, and that's why, because I was perpetuating one kind of type of marketing that wasn't fully in alignment. So I think, yeah, it's just realizing is, is okay to show up as yourself, you know, Woo. Warts and all, you know, and, and you, you'll feel a lot freer and. That will, you will attract the right people then because the right energy will go out.  Sarah: Before you said, you know, you wish you'd known five years ago. And, and, and I definitely [00:18:00] feel the same. Do you feel like. Sometimes I'm confused. I feel like maybe it's almost like you have to go through this in order to figure out who you are. Yeah. But at the same time, I would like, , for new business owners to kind of take the shortcut and just start with that. But it's, I seem to hear that story over and over again. I wish I'd known, you know, when I, I kind of went. That direction first until I came back and came full circle. What's the, Yeah, what's your take  Jen: on this? I think it, I think everybody just needs to read your books. . Thanks. You know, the marketing book and the selling book, because I think people just need to know there are different options out there, you know, because, We don't all fit in the same box, but sadly, a lot of people who have louder voices get their kind of boxes out there, and you think that that's the norm. Whereas there are like quite earth boxes, , you know, more sensitive sides. So I think it's [00:19:00] important to, to just spotlight that there are different ways and different types of people, different types of personalities, different types of makeup. , and sadly, a lot of that wasn't out there, and I'm so grateful for you writing your books and starting this conversation and starting your marketing circle and getting the conversation out there because I think more people need to hear it because. Yeah, there's a lot of, it's, you know, there's so many people looking on LinkedIn and it's like, why are they looking? They're probably sensitive. They're probably like us kinda going, Oh, I'm not sure if this resonates with me. This feels a bit too much. So yeah, I think it's important to, to get this message out there because we don't want people to. Go to the, you know, the pain. Yeah, yeah, the pain. But I suppose, like you say, sometimes is worth it. It's like a diamond. It has to be crushed, doesn't it? To, you know, have as brilliance in the end. And I suppose you appreciate. The journey when you're at the end of it. I don't, can't say I appreciated it [00:20:00] in the hard times, but, I suppose that's what we do. We've done the journey in the hard times, and I don't want everybody to have to go through this if they can avoid  Sarah: it. Yeah. So you're, you're, what you're saying is you think it's still like that for a lot of people who are just starting. They take some kind of, I, you know, hear it from a lot of coaching. They get their coaching, degree or accreditation. And then immediately even in the school, they tell 'em, Oh, there's this and this marketing program. And usually they're the big. Big giant programs, Right. That we all know who we're talking about. Yeah. And they're exactly, They're just kind of get fit into this box or funnel or whatever. Yeah. And then, yeah, they're like, Oh, I didn't know I was gonna have to do this marketing thing. That really doesn't feel good. . Yeah.  Jen: Yeah. I think so many bus, I mean, I was naive when I first launched. I was like, Oh, here's my website today. And I just thought, Oh, they're all so booking in. Sales calls. I [00:21:00] don't need sales calls. I'm an introvert. They're just gonna book to my website and they're gonna email me. And it was kinda like, , no , you have to get like your voice out there and attract people to your website. So it is very much a learning lesson. And I think a lot of business owners, we did not go into business to be doing, the marketing side of things or the selling side of things. So yeah, I. And there's, I've heard of so many horror stories, like you said, about big programs where there's very much a methodology that's the, the lead coach's way. But quite often the lead coach is quite unique in their makeup or their personality or their human design. So it's not easily like replicated with the people that sign up because they're completely different. You know, mindset wise, mentality wise, make you know, completely different types of people. But they kind of perpetuate that this is the only, the only way to do it. And that's why a lot of people fall out of love with LinkedIn or the online [00:22:00] space, cuz they're just like, Oh, it's too hard. but yeah, they kind of push this method as the only way and. I have heard about people just doing things that didn't resonate and then just writing off LinkedIn or writing off the online space, which is quite sad. , which I think is important. Like that's why it's so important to have your, your voice out there, your message out there, your books out there.  Sarah: Mm. Thank you, Jen. Yeah. What, what do you say to someone who's listening and, you know, they're thinking about this idea of the passion? Maybe it's, woo, maybe it's, yeah, maybe it's not. Woo. Maybe it's just something that they're doing as a hobby. , and they, that they really love and they're like, I wish I could. You know, do more of this. And I think really that's what, where we're heading, I'm always talking about this new business paradigm, but that's what I mean by the new business paradigm is like, how do we combine, , these things? I don't even buy into the conversation of, you know, you're not really running a business. It is a hobby. I'm like, Well, what [00:23:00] if one can be the other? It's just like, why do we have to define. One as a hobby and the other one as a business. Yeah. What if we just not talk about making a life or making a living? You know, like, yeah, we all ne have bills to pay. We need to provide for ourselves, but we just need to figure out what we can do That A, brings us joy, but also, you know, somehow pays the bills. So yeah. What would you say to someone who's like, I have. Passion for something, but it has nothing to do with what I do for a living. You know? What would you tell them? How did you go about thinking, What if I bring this in?  Jen: I would just say lean into it a hundred percent. And I know somebody said it to me like five and a half years ago. Do something you love. And I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I kind of brushed it off and I was like, Oh, I like LinkedIn, whatever. And I didn't fully listen to them and it's taken me five years to come around. So definitely, incorporate that. [00:24:00] They don't have to be two separate things, as Sarah is saying, and you're gonna need some kind of point of differentiation. I think at the, at the start, we're all like, What's my usb? What's my usp? And there's a lot of it that crosses over everybody else's usp. But I think it's the thing that will make you different is this passion, you know, this love for something. That will be the thing that will actually draw people to you, which I would never have thought of, you know, five years ago. I would just think, Well, you're willing to train, you're gonna come, I'm gonna chat about LinkedIn. Why would I chat about anything else? So I would fully lean into it and you might surprise yourself with, you know, the opportunities and. People buy people, but it's, it's that passion and energy and I know kind of leaning into human design has reignited my love of LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. , which is probably dwindling a little bit because of that Bro hustle marketing. I was like, oh God, you know, It was a way for me to kind of go, okay, if I do a bit of [00:25:00] this and a bit of that, It just, yeah, it's re-energized me and my business, and I'm a lot more excited to work with people one to one and kick things off with the human design reading, you know? So I would say, yeah, fully lean in, Don't discount any of your passions because they can be the thing that makes you stand out and be memorable. Top of mind. So, yeah, lean into it and you never know, like, who's to say your passion can't make you money. Like, you know, I think we all have this idea, and I know I did that. You know, business is hard. It has to be hard. We have to do the hard work. We've come from corporate and we've done so many hours and it has to be the same in our business. And you think, no, actually, you know, our passions and our strengths, not everybody has them right for staff, and we deserve to be paid well for them. We're sharing our knowledge and our enthusiasm at, you know, and our expertise. So I would lean into it because who says you can't have fun with your business and [00:26:00] you can't do something that you love? And the most successful business owners are the ones who are in love with what they do, , because it doesn't feel like a business. Then they've got that motivation. They wanna wake up, they wanna do more of that, whereas, yeah. I, I was losing a little bit of passion, and I won't lie, , I was about two years ago. I was kind of like, oh, because there was too many other, you know, just crush it, just do it. And I was like, Oh, this isn't resonating. So finding this or leaning into this bit of woo , I don't think is way, but I, you know, the, the, the wrong type of person will think is way, whatever. I'm not interested in this at all, but leading into it has really like little spark in me. Yeah, I totally lean into your passion. Never discount them because you never know where it's gonna lead you. And who says can't make you money? .  Sarah: Yeah. And, and I really, again, from the outside looking in it like it made your brand, like, you know, before you had a brand, but. [00:27:00] It that was kind of like, Well, it's what everybody else is saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and let's, let's just say it how it is, like, you know, Link, There's a lot of LinkedIn specialists and experts now. Before when we started, maybe less. Yeah. Um, but, but now everybody is a LinkedIn trainer, so Yeah. How can you, Yeah. How do you stand out? And that's kind of just an additional benefit of bringing your passion into your business because that's truly how you're gonna Yeah. Stand out and be remembered. I'm, I remember, one of my, , early friend online friends, Denise Wakeman, she. Probably like 10 years ago now, she kind of rebranded into, can't remember the exact name of the brand, but really had to do with her adventurous spirit. And she was always traveling and to like, you know, crazy places like Peru and, and all these places. And she made that her brand and so, That kind of stuff sticks with you. So [00:28:00] I think it's, it's the same thing for you  Jen: really. It's how you connect as a human being, isn't it? It's like when you, Right before this podcast, I was in a networking event and it's a little bit different in the sense of the host makes us. Kind of not strange questions but different questions. Like one question was, you know, tell me something off your book at list or tell me , what's your guilty pleasure? And it's kind of like these kind of questions are how you connect. Cuz we were all laughing, you know, we were chatting about a lot of the guilty pleasures were really trash TV programs, And it was like, ok, I'm gonna remember you're the lady that liked that. You know, like rather. Your profession. You know, like it's when you bring that bit of personality in. Yeah. Another one was like, who would you take on a blind date? And this was how we were actually connecting and laughing as human beings. This kind of made such a difference and I think. In business, you can kind of be tunnel vision and like, Oh, I'm LinkedIn trainer. You know, LinkedIn is [00:29:00] all blah, blah, blah. LinkedIn. LinkedIn, LinkedIn, LinkedIn. But it, you know, it was when you bring that extra passion in or that extra thing that you do, like, I love the, the way you were always mentioning that you're like an ex hippie that's in my head, you know? So I think, yeah, things like that make the.  Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. Ah, this has been so good. Thank you so much, Jen. I, I can, I think people hear that passion as well, you know, it's like, Yeah. You can tell that from the kind of boring, you know, LinkedIn algorithms, blah, blah, blah. No, it's like, You're talking to humans. Yes, these humans want to use LinkedIn, but you're basically helping them with this tool that is human design to really figure out, well, how is this LinkedIn tool gonna work for you? Because you're just listening to everybody else out there. Well, they're gonna tell you, yeah, to sell your soul on LinkedIn and maybe that's not gonna work for you. [00:30:00] So,  Jen: Oh, and I think it gives you, it gives you an understanding of yourself, but it also gives you an understanding of of other people. And then it's like, Oh, okay, that didn't work for that person, because they're that type of person and I think we need to learn to. Understand each other more because there's a lot of copy and paste and, you know, cookie clutter approaches out there, and they're never gonna work with everyone. They're only gonna resonate where it's a tiny percentage. So I think the more you can understand yourself and others, the more you're gonna connect as a, as an individual, and you're gonna have better relationships. And I think so many people just wanna fast track, don't they? They just want this magic silver bullet. I want it now. Yeah, and you have to put  Sarah: a little bit work in. And I was just thinking as, as you're talking it, it's because we're, we're hosting a, a workshop about, about confidence and there as well. The first part to confidence is to know yourself and find out who you are and how you're wired. And so when you think about marketing, you [00:31:00] need confidence to market well, you need to know yourself first before you get the confidence. So  Jen: yeah, that's really interesting cuz I don't. A lot of, many readings this year and one of my clients there is like one of the centers in human design about the south, and hers is completely open. And yeah, she doesn't really know herself. She's actually in that transition of trying to, you know, Find out who she is, and I know it's definitely led to a lot of procrastination for her and mm-hmm. and stress. So I think, yeah, you really need to know who you are, who you stand, you know, what you stand for, what are your values, what are you trying to achieve, and not copy other people's values. You really need to dig deep as to what's gonna resonate with you. Yeah. Rather than, you know, a lot of copy and paste. Oh, that sounds good. I'll take a bit of that. Or I should be doing this because I do this. But yeah, I. You have to, you have to have that confidence. That's if you don't have it. You're [00:32:00] not gonna ever be comfortable showing up as a business owner, whether it is online or on a sales call or anything, and people can feel that off you They can feel that energy if you are not confident. They're not gonna be confident in partnering with money to work with you. Confidence is everything, isn't it?  Sarah: It is. Yeah. This has been so good. Thank you so much for taking the time. Please do share with people where they can find you and maybe sign up for a, a mini reading slash LinkedIn Consulting. Tell us all about where they can find you. Pairing  Jen: Sarah, so obviously I'm on LinkedIn, so it's Jen Corcoran, c o r c o r a n, or my website is www.mysuperconnector.co uk. And yeah, so two of them are probably my main things and you could find my email on my website as well.  Sarah: [00:33:00] Wonderful. I always have one last question and that is, what are you grateful for today? Or this.  Jen: I'm grateful for you on this conversation and someone bringing the human side of life and marketing out there, because I don't know anybody else doing it, Sarah. So I'm grateful for us getting this out in the world, and I can't wait to share this podcast with my network and my community. So, yeah, grateful for a like mine. Thank you. Fellow hsv, fellow introverts, fellow centered people in business. Cause I know when I first started it was like heart centered. What's that? That's a bit, you know? But yeah, I'm all about people like you and you,  Sarah: and likewise. Thank you so much for hanging out again, Jen. We'll do it again  Jen: soon. Thanks Ev. Thanks everyone.

00:47 - Jen's Superpower: Being Optimistic * Recognizing Negative Loops * Intentionality & Prioritization * Preventing Security Vulnerabilities 10:13 - Working On Open-Source Projects vs Commercial Software/Products * Gathering Feedback (RFCs) * Baby Steps = Big Impact 12:57 - Major vs Minor Releases * Semantic Versioning * Deprecation Warnings * Advanced Notice * Incremental Rollouts 18:45 - RFC / Feedback Processes * Dealing with Contradictory Feedback * Reaching Consensus * Visionary Leadership * Additions 23:25 - The Ember Core Team (https://emberjs.com/teams/) * ~30 People * Funding * LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/) (Corporate Sponsorship) * Consultants & Consultancies * Volunteers 26:31 - Doing Open Source Better * Sponsor Company (Time) * Knowledge Sharing * Framing Work As How It Values Contributors * Reframing How We Think About Open Source Sustainability (i.e. Company-Wide Open Source Work Days) * Frame Value to Company * Frame Value to Users * Frame Value to Engineering Teams * Attitude Shifts 39:56 - Participation Encouragement & Engagement Tips * Use The Buddy System * Having Well-Scoped Issues * Increasing Levels of Challenge (Subtle Cheerleading) * Help People Spin Up Quickly 46:00 - Widening the Pool of Participants * Being Easy to Reach * Social Media Activity * Working In The Open 47:36 - UX-Driven Design (User Experience-Driven Design) Reflections: Damien: Perspective of those impacted. Sponsors, users, etc. Arty: What it's like to work on a big open source project and the challenges we face. Jen: Exploring small-project lifecycles. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: ARTY: Hi, everyone and welcome to Episode 253 of Greater Than Code. I am Artemis Starr and I am here with my fabulous co-host, Damien Burke. DAMIEN: And we are here with our fabulous guest, Jen Weber. Jen Weber is a member of the Ember.js core team and is a senior software engineer at ActBlue Technical Services. Jen loves open source, rapid prototyping, and making tech a more welcoming industry. Jen, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the show. JEN: Thank you so much for having me. DAMIEN: So you should have gotten an email preparing you for the first and most difficult part of every appearance on Greater Than Code. Are you ready for this? JEN: I am. 
DAMIEN: What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? JEN: All right. So I did get that email and I've been thinking about those for the last couple of days. I think my superpower is being able to imagine the ways that things can go well. DAMIEN: Wow. That's very special. JEN: Thank you. DAMIEN: How did you acquire that? JEN: So I used to be very good at imagining all of the ways that things can go badly. Those are still the patterns that my mind walks whenever I'm confronted with a challenge, but someone gave me some advice. I was recounting to them all of the ways that things could go badly, they were like, “What would it look like if things went well?” I've been trying to build that as a muscle and a skill anytime I'm working on a new project, or something hasn't gone well, something's already gone badly, and I'm trying to figure out what to do next. I found that helped me open up to more creative thinking. ARTY: I really think that is a superpower and in order for things to go well, for us to manifest good things toward a good direction, we have to be able to see the steps to get there, imagine ourselves walking in that direction to be able to do it. And if we're caught in a loop of worrying about all the things that are going to go wrong, anticipating those things going wrong, then it's like we're going to be waiting for him and doing things that help bring those things that we don't want into being. So if you find yourself in this mode, it sounds like this is something that you struggled with and learned this adaptive skill to break out of this pattern. So what kind of things do you do? Like, do you tell yourself things or ask yourself certain questions, or how do you snap out of that mode and get to a better place where you're thinking about things in a positive frame? JEN: Sure. I think for me, the first step is just recognizing when I'm in that negative loop and accepting that it's my first reaction, but that doesn't need to be my conclusion to my thought process. If I'm working on let's say, there's a real-world challenge. Just to give an example as part of my work on the Ember core team, I might think about how do I engage the community and announce that there's going to be this new version of Ember? If I imagine things going badly, I imagine like, “O, wow, nobody even retweets it a single time,” and if I imagine things going well, I think like, “Wow, it's this big moment in tech.” And if it was a big moment in tech, what would have the involved people done to get to that successful end point and trying to work backwards from that to connect the dots. It takes some intentionality, it takes having enough rest, it takes not being over-caffeinated to be able to unlock that kind of thinking. DAMIEN: But it sounds so powerful, especially as an engineer, or as an advocate. It's like because we're in the role of making things into what we want them to be, which is things going well, right? JEN: Yeah, and it's a little different than a wishful thinking, I would say, because you're still thinking in order for things to go, well, you have to overcome challenges, you have to solve problems, you have to prioritize, there's going to be difficult moments. So you're not just dreaming that this good feature is going to come into existence, but actually figuring out what are the nuts and bolts, and pieces, like, what are the ingredients to that recipe? When we think and reflect on that, how can we take those ingredients and apply them to right now to get where we want to go? ARTY: So you take that vision and then work backwards and translate that to actual action. These are things that we can do right now to walk the path of getting where we want to go. JEN: Mm hm, and it might take you somewhere totally different direction. It might be very different by the time you're done. But usually, you can figure out a few things here and there that are steps in the right direction, and the right direction could be one of many different directions. ARTY: Do you find yourself ever getting disappointed that things don't go the way you envisioned? JEN: Oh yeah, for sure. [laughter] Yeah, and I think that's a little bit part of the rollercoaster of being involved in software. Like every single day is a series of things going a little different than you thought they would. You read the code; you think it's going to go a certain way. You're wrong; you change your plan. You have this idea of a direction you're going to go, you've thought about what are the successful steps to get there, and then you end up in the wrong corner and you have to go back to the drawing board and surviving those cycles is just part of what we do. ARTY: So does that superpower help you escape those feelings of disappointment then? JEN: Oh yeah, I think so because not that I have some way to see the future, but more that I have tools for helping to figure out what my next step could be. ARTY: So then you're always focused back on action. JEN: Mm hm. ARTY: And how can I take what I learned and this vision of what a good direction would be, taking these new data points and things into account, and then reimagine and translating that back into action. JEN: Yeah. ARTY: I think that qualifies as a superpower. DAMIEN: Yeah, I think about it, I guess because I was writing code this morning, and so often, when you're writing – when I'm writing code at least, it's like oh, the phrase was “defensive programming” from a long time ago. How can this go wrong? What happens if this is nil? What happens if some evil guy in a black hat comes in and tries to do something here? And what I've had to learn and still need to remind myself of is the good case. What is it that we're doing good for our users, or whoever else the code touches? What are they trying to accomplish and what experience are we trying to create for them? And so, both, as an engineer and a product manager, just being able to ask that question and see an answer on a small scale on a feature in stories, super important. JEN: Yeah, and even if you're thinking of that adversarial aspect where it's like, you're trying to think through all of the security risks that are involved in developing some software, you can still use this thinking to your advantage. What would a successful future be where somebody tries to exploit that vulnerability and they fail? You've got them. What are the things you built? What are the strategies and habits that that team had? What is the monitoring and infrastructure that resulted in successfully preventing this, or that problem from occurring? DAMIEN: It's not only a useful strategy and also, feels really good. JEN: Mm hm. DAMIEN: That's great. ARTY: I like that, though just thinking from a standpoint of just vulnerability, or even a case where things go “wrong,” in the case that you do have somebody hacking your system, or trying to exploit some vulnerability, what's the logging and information infrastructure? What does that story look like where even though these things are happening, we're prepared, we have the right things in place to give us visibility into what's going on, and be able to catch it and address it quickly. Like what do all those things look like such that we're ready to go and can still have a success story, even in the case of these challenges that come up? DAMIEN: That sounds connected to something, I think we want to talk about today, which is what goes well when you get a major library upgrade, what does that look like? JEN: Yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot lately; informed by two things. So one is that I'm involved in an Ember, which is a frontend JavaScript framework, and we're getting ready to do a 4.0 major release. So going through all of those exercises to have preparedness all comes back to how do we do this, or what do our users need, what are the resources that are missing? That's one thing on my mind and the other is that I've recently updated some dependencies in the apps that I work in and had a hard time. What can I learn for myself about what to do differently? What can I learn that might be takeaways for library maintainers? What can I share with my coworkers and my collaborators to make this easier next time? ARTY: What's it like working on an open source project and how does that feel different? What are the different aspects of that from working on a commercial product versus something in the open source community? JEN: There's a couple of pieces. The biggest one is that when you're working in your own code base, you have at least a fuzzy picture of what the product is, what the constraints are, how many users there are, and the things that the developers on your team generally know and the things that they don't know. You have all this information that would help you inform how do I roll out some new, big feature, or something like that. When you're working at open source, your universe of possible products, developers, and users is huge. Like, you could never write down a list of all the ways that somebody is going to be using that software and so, it becomes really different than having a set of well-defined products requirements; we want to get from point A to point B. It's like, we need to give everybody a path forward even though they're using this tool in all these different ways. To do that, a lot of effort goes into gathering feedback from other people in the community. So we use a process called RFCs, or Requests for Comments where someone says, “Hey, I think this would be a good feature. Hey, I think this thing should be removed, or deprecated,” and you have to get feedback. Because we can't imagine all the ways ourselves that someone could use this feature, or tool and then once there's consensus amongst the core team, then something can move forward. But everything goes through a lot of iteration as part of that process. So the overall progress can sometimes feel slow because you have to think through all of this extra weight—the weight of depending on thousands and thousands of developers and billions of users on you to make the right decision. It means you can't just “Oh, let's just merge this breaking change and I'll make this breaking change and I'll just post on Slack to everybody like, ‘Hey, watch out. I just changed this one thing. I documented it here. Good luck.'” You can't really quite pull that lever in the same way, but when you do have a step forward, it's a step forward for all of these apps, for all of these projects, for all of their users and so, little baby steps can still translate into really big impact. ARTY: So when you have something that's a major release in that context, like a major release of Ember versus a minor release. How are those different? What kind of things do you do in major releases? JEN: Yeah, that's a good question. So I'll just provide a little bit of background information on this vocabulary that we're using for anyone who's listening in. A lot of projects follow semantic versioning, which is a set of rules that a lot of projects agree to follow that if you ever see a version number that's like 4.2.1.—oftentimes, that's semantic versioning and action in the first number—is for major releases and a major release is one that has a breaking change. So that means that I make a change in that code base. I would expect that other people would have to change the code in their own apps and they would be forced to go through that—make that change—in order to upgrade to that version for the library I'm working on. Minor is usually used for features. Patch, the last one, is used for bug fixes and internal refactors, things like that. Not all projects follow in the same way. Some projects have time-based cycles where they say, “Oh, we do a major release every six months,” or something like that. But for us major releases are breaking changes and the things that are different about them is that we have to give people a path forward to get to the next version. That could include putting some deprecation warnings, any code that's going to get removed or change any API that are going to shift in the next major version. We want to let people know, with a little warning, if they're using those older syntaxes, or APIs, whatever's going to be removed. We also want to try to give a lot of advanced notice about what's going to change, or be removed via blog posts, things like having a help channel set up maybe that's just for those upgrades. When it's time to actually do the major release, we try to make it boring. This is something that I would like to see happen across the rest of the JavaScript ecosystem. It does seem to be catching on more, which is that when you do a major version release, all it does is it removes the things that need to be removed. You make your breaking changes and that's it, and then in follow-up releases is when you add in all the new features. So let's say, some API is just the old way of doing things. It doesn't match up with a new rendering engine, or something like that. You're going to want to remove the old thing and then incrementally work to roll out these big splashy, new, exciting features. So maybe your exciting release is actually going to be 4.1, or 4.2, or 4.3. This has a couple benefits. It lets your major releases be a little less risky because you're not just removing code and then adding new code at the same time. It lets people not be as overwhelmed like, “Oh, first I have to deal with all of these things that are removed, or changed and then now I also have to learn this whole new way of thinking about how to write my app using this tool.” It lets you take little baby steps towards doing things in a different way. DAMIEN: Does this mean, in an ideal scenario, that if you don't have any deprecation warnings—if you're taking care of all the deprecation warnings—then your major release can go – you can upgrade some next major version without a code change. JEN: Yeah, that's the dream. DAMIEN: It does sound like a dream. JEN: Yeah, and it's not always perfect, but it's an important pathway towards including more people and participating in upgrades, app maintenance, and creating sustainable code bases so you don't have to follow the Twitter, the blog post, and be checking the JavaScript subreddit just to keep up on with what's going on. You're not going to be surprised by big sweeping changes. So coming back to this experience I had with upgrading a different library recently, I was upgrading major Jest versions and was very surprised to see that there were a ton of breaking changes in a changelog and I got a little bit frustrated with that. And then I went back and I read the blog posts and I saw a blog post from 2 years ago saying, “These are the things that we are doing, this is what is happening,” and that was great, but I wasn't doing Jest tests 2 years ago and so, I missed all of that. Can we use the code base itself to connect those dots, make those suggestions, and guide people towards the work that they do? DAMIEN: If they put those deprecation warnings in 2 years ago, you would've had 2 years to make those changes. JEN: Yeah. DAMIEN: And then when you finally upgraded, it would have been a dream, or have been painless. JEN: Yeah, and maybe they're there. Maybe there are some and I just need to pass the debug flag, or something. Hopefully, there's nobody who's shouting at their computer. But there's this one thing that we put it in the console log output, or something. It's possible I overlooked it but. DAMIEN: I want to rewind a little bit back to the challenge of dealing with a product that is used in so many contexts by so many people, like Ember is, and the RFC process. The first thing I thought of when you mentioned that is what do you do with contradictory feedback? Surely, you must have hundreds of engineers who say, “You have to get rid of this,” and hundreds who say, “No, this has to stay.” How does the core team manage that? JEN: Yeah. So I think the most important piece is the contradictory feedback needs to be considered. So it's not just like, “Oh, let's collect these comments as annual feedback forms,” or anything like that. [chuckles] This isn't like, “Oh, let's do some natural language processing on these comments to figure out if the sentiment is positive, or negative.” [chuckles] None of that stuff you have to actually read through them and think what could I do using this new feature to help meet this person's needs, or what's at the heart of the objection that they're making? If someone is saying, “This doesn't work for my team,” and entering that process with a willingness to iterate. In the end, we can't make everybody happy all the time, or no RFC would ever get moved forward. There's always going to be a point where you have to prioritize the pros and cons, and ultimately, the decision comes down to reaching consensus amongst the core team members. So being able to say, as a group, “We believe that the feedback has been considered. We believe that the iterations have been incorporated, the people's concerns have been addressed,” or “We're going to work to create tools that think that problem be not a problem for them,” and find a way to move forward with whatever the proposal is. Or sometimes, the proposals don't move forward. Sometimes, they get closed. ARTY: Is the work you end up choosing to do primarily driven by this feedback process, or do you have some visionary leadership within the core team that drives a lot of things forward that aren't necessarily coming via feedback? JEN: That's a good question. I think it's a little bit of both. So certainly, a lot of RFCs have come from the community and from people asking like, “Hey, can we have this better way of doing things? I have an idea.” And then other times, you do have to have that visionary leadership. So to give an example, we have just started doing – well, I shouldn't say just started doing that. I think it's been like 2 years now. We have started doing this process called additions where if there's a big splashy set of cool features that are meant to be used together, we give it a name. That's separate from the breaking changes process, ideally. We can create nice, new splashy sets of features without breaking people's apps and trying to design that experience isn't something that you can just piecemeal through RFCs waiting for feedback to come through. There were quite a few members of the core team that designed a new way of building Ember apps that was better aligned with focusing on HTML as the core of building for the web and focusing on JavaScript features as opposed to requiring developers to know and understand the special API syntaxes. You can just write JavaScript classes instead of needing to understand what an Ember object is. So aligning ourselves more with the skills that everybody, who works in the web, has at least a little bit of. That took a lot of brainstorming, a lot of planning, and ultimately, introducing those things still follows an RFC process. Somebody still has to say, “Here's the thing we want to change, or do, or add. Here's the greater vision for it.” But to get that big picture look still requires the big thinking. So the core team, I don't even know how much time. They must've spent countless hours trying to hash out those details. ARTY: How big is the core team? JEN: So there's several core teams. Though when you say the core team as a whole encompasses people who work on the data layer, the command line tools, the learning tools, and then the framework itself. I want to say, could look this up, it's like upwards of 30 people, I think. ARTY: Wow. JEN: I can get you the exact number later, [chuckles] but everyone's pulling out their different area of domain and so, all of those teams also have to coordinate around these major releases because we want to make sure the work that we're doing is complimentary. If we do the framework improvements, but we don't fix up the docs, we're not on the good path for a successful release. ARTY: Are people working on this stuff full-time? Are people funded, or doing this in their free time, or how does that work? Because there's this big picture challenge of we have this ideal of community sourced, open source projects, and then the realities of trying to fund and support that effort bumps up to constraints of needing to make a living and things and these sorts of difficulties. How do y'all manage that? JEN: It's a mixture. So the Ember project is fortunate to have a major player—LinkedIn—that uses Ember and so, some of the core team members, their work on Ember is part of their LinkedIn work because of the frameworks doing well, then LinkedIn projects that are going to be doing well. There's also a number of people who are consultants, or who run consultancies that do Ember work, they're involved. Their voice is an important part of making sure that again, we're serving a variety of apps, not just ah, this is this tool that's just for the LinkedIn websites. But it's like, they've seen so many different kinds of apps; they're working on so many different kinds of apps right now. And then there's people who help out on more of a volunteer basis. So I've been in my past work, it was at a different job. It was part of my job responsibilities to participate on the framework core team. These days, I'm more of a volunteer and I mostly help organize other volunteers—people who want to do some professional development to learn, people who want to network, people who found something that they're frustrated about enough that they want to fix it themselves. That's how I got involved; I wanted to learn. So that's the sustainability of having people involved is always an ongoing challenge it is for every open source organization, I think. ARTY: Yeah. Do you have any ideas on how we can do those sorts of things better? As you said, it's a concern, in general with how do we do open source better with these kinds of constraints? And then two, I feel like there's been some cultural shifts, I guess, you could say over time of you think about when the open source movement first started. We had a lot more of this community ownership ideal where we really were going and building software together and now, there's a lot more of, well, there's all this free software out there that we use, that we build on top of to build our apps on, but that ownership piece isn't really there. It's an expectation that there should just be this free software out there that's maintained that we get and why is it falling apart? So I feel like, culturally, just over time, some of those things have shifted as far as expectations around open source and then you talked about some of the corporate sponsorship aspects with usage as being one way these things get funded. But I'm wondering if you have ideas on how some of these things could work better. JEN: People have done PhDs on this topic, I'm pretty sure. [chuckles] Like, theses. I read a white paper, a really involved white paper, a few weeks ago that was about, what was it? it was called something like the Burden of Maintaining Software, or something like that and it did this deep dive into how much goes in and just keeping the ship afloat. How much goes into just if there's a package that needs to be updated? That kind of ongoing, constant, mundane work that adds up really, really big. So for very large projects, I think it's a good thing to have some sort of an evolvement of a sponsor company, if you will and so, that sponsor company may not actually ever donate any money, but the time of their engineers that they say like, “Hey, we're willing to help support this project” is really important. I think another piece is that the leadership of projects should consider the people involved, that that group is going to be rotating. That people's involvement is ephemeral. Every time somebody changes jobs, maybe they're not going to be involved in that project anymore. If we can think about that ahead of time, plan for it, and make sure that we are sharing knowledge with each other such that the project can survive somebody moving onto something else, it can survive somebody going on vacation for a while. So I think that's another key component of success is how do you make it so that you're not just relying on the same set of people still being there so many years later? We've been very fortunate within the Ember community that a lot of the same people have stuck around, but I try really hard not to bank on that. The group of contributors that I help organize, I think, “Hey.” We have a chat every time somebody joins the learning core team and say, “Hey, we get that you're not going to be here forever. Please let us know what we can do to support you. Please let us know when you're thinking of taking a break, or taking a step back. Please involve other people on any project that you're working on so that they will also continue your work and also support you so you don't get burnt out. Another thing I try to do is always framing the work into how it values the contributor. Sometimes in open source you hear this discussion of like, “Oh, well, everyone should participate in open source because we all benefit from it.” There's a better attitude that we can have, I think, which is that for people who are interested in participating, what can they get out of it? What can I do as a leader to help them get something out of this? If you just approach it with this altruism of “This is a community and I want to help,” that'll get you like a little bit. But if you can say, “I want to help because I want to learn from other developers,” that's something I can deliver on. That's something that they can take. That's valuable for their future earning potential, income, confidence, maybe they'll make the connection that helps them find their next job. Even if someone isn't being paid to help out, is there something that they can take away from this? And lastly, just acknowledging that doing work for free is a privilege as well. We have to reframe how we think about open source sustainability, too. Not everybody can devote a few hours after work here and there and involving them and including them means that it's got to be part of their workday. So continuing to socialize from the company level that engineers should have a little bit of time here and there to try to help improve an open source project. Everybody doing that just a little bit helps with quite a few of the problems that these projects face. ARTY: I've been thinking about this myself and you work directly, you're significantly involved in a major open source project, and so, you see things that a lot of people don't have perspective on. So I appreciate your insights on this. I'm wondering what if major companies that were using open source software, if we made more efforts for companies to be a project sponsor and donate part of the company somebody who's on the company's time to help contribute to projects as like a thing. I feel like if that thing caught on, that the companies that were using this software for free [chuckles] had more of a sense of a social obligation to be one of the people that contribute some time to helping with that. Or get some companies that are big enough, too. It's probably easier and they have more interest in those sorts of things. But I feel like if we did make that more of a thing, that that would be useful because as you're saying, somehow realistically speaking, this has to be something that can be worked into the workday. JEN: Yes. ARTY: For us to be able to support and sustain these things. And people that can do that outside of their workday as an extra free time thing. It really is a privilege. JEN: Yeah. I think a couple of strategies that can help here are to frame it in the value to the company and frame it as a value to the users, frame it as a value to the engineering team. So rather than having it be like, “Oh, you use free software, you should do this thing.” Instead more like engineers, we always need to learn constantly in order to keep improving our own skills and to keep up with things that are changing. So having an open source hour, or something like that—it takes a little more than an hour usually to accomplish much. But having a period of time that engineers were allowed to contribute to open sources. Professional development that you don't have to pay for a subscription. You don't have to pay for a licensing fee. You don't have to pay for somebody's conference submission. If someone has the opportunity to reach outside of their sphere of knowledge, or comfort zone and it just so happens that if they succeed, it'll benefit your company maybe indirectly. Another piece is what's the value to the users? So there were a bunch of people who all contributed effort towards bringing some improved linting tools for the template system within Ember. When we think of linting tools, we usually think that's like, “Oh, here's this thing to remind me to use nice tidy syntax and don't make my variable names too long and space everything out in a certain way,” but they can also help us find real actual problems in our apps. So an example that this team worked on is they introduced some more linting rules for accessibility. If one person succeeds in introducing this new linting rule for accessibility, then it's there in their app for their team and they get to stop talking about, “Hey, make sure you do this one thing” over and over again because now it's enforced in the code base. Also, they've brought this benefit to all of the other apps that are out there. Again, sometimes you can tie it back in to that value for the product and for the users, and really trying to think creatively about that connection. Because there's so many different things we can all spend our time on, you've really got to sell it in a way that aligns with the goals, or values of that organization. ARTY: Yeah. I like that reframing. I can see just how important that is. Other things I'm thinking about if you had a dev team and one of your developers was really involved with the Ember core team, you'd have more knowledge about how things worked. So when something was broken, or something, you probably have more insight into what was going on and being able to help the team more effectively – JEN: Yeah. [overtalk] ARTY: To build stuff. And then if there's any suggestions, or things that could make things easier for your team, you'd have the ability to have influence with getting RFPs through to get changes made and things. I think you're right. It needs to be reframed as a value proposition. JEN: Yeah, and it also requires an attitude shift on the side of the projects as well. There's tons of people who've tried to do open source and hit running straight into a wall of they open up pull requests that are never merged, or even reviewed and that can be a really frustrating experience. And some projects just don't have the feedback structure, or the governance structure that really allows open participation either. So that's something that I think is an ongoing journey with lots of projects. It's like, how do we communicate? How do we involve other people? What types of decisions do we say like, “Hey, implementer, or community, you're in charge, you can make this” versus things that have to pass some sort of review. It's not just a one side of companies need to step up, but also, maintainers seem to have a long-term vision of how they're interacting with everybody else. DAMIEN: Yeah, I really love that frame of this is professional development and that you can get for free. That's like how would you like to educate your engineers and make them better engineers, especially on the tools you work on and not –? Yeah, that's really awesome. But then of course, on the other side, you need a welcoming environment. That's like, “Oh yeah, when you make a contribution, we're going to look at it. We're going to give you useful feedback on it.” JEN: Yeah. I tried to get an open source project going a few years ago and I struggled for a while and eventually ended up giving up. But some of the things I ran into, I'd have somebody that would volunteer to help out with things and I'd work with them long enough to just start to get a feel for things and be able to contribute and then they would disappear. [laughs] And I go through that process a few times. It's like, “Oh, yay. I'm excited, I get –” another person has volunteered and so, then I go and start working with them and trying to – and I put a lot of attention into trying to get things going and then they disappear. t was difficult to try and get traction in that way and eventually, I went, “Well, I'm back by myself again” [laughs] and that I just need to keep going. ARTY: Right. So what kind of things have you found help with getting that participation aspect going and what kind of things are barriers that get in the way that maybe we can be better at? JEN: Yeah. So my advice is always start with using the buddy system. Trying to pair program with people, who I'm hoping to stay involved, and the leveling up version of that is the people who are contributing pair with each other. It's so much more fun. There's so much more of a learning experience when it's two developers working on the project. Left to my own devices, the projects that I work on, I have to really dig into my willpower to keep them moving if I'm the only person working on it versus if we're pairing, what's the value that I'm getting? It's like, I get to hear how the other person approaches the problem. I get to experience how they work. They teach me things. I teach them things. We have this good rapport. So I pair once a week with my friend, Chris, and we work on everything from this kind of mundane stuff to the big vision, like what would we do if we could totally change how this thing works, or something like that, and that kind of energy and get ideas, they build up. So that's one piece. The other, this one's difficult, but having well-scoped, well-written issues is a huge time sink, but also, it can be one of the best ways get people engaged and keep them engaged. If I stop writing really specific issues, people peter off. Someone will ask, maybe only once, they'll ask, “Hey, I want to help out, or something. What should I pick up next?” They don't usually ask a second time, but I don't have something right away to hand off to them. So what is the momentum? Can I keep writing up issues and things that other people can follow through with? And then presenting them with increasing levels of challenge of like, “I have this unstructured problem. We've worked on this a lot together. You can do this. How would you approach this? What do you think we should do?” I don't necessarily say,” You can do this,” because it's more of a subtle cheerleading that's happening than that. But “I'd love to hear your proposal of what should happen next” just is a really powerful moment and sometimes, that can be the thing that catapults somebody into taking more ownership of a project and gathering together other people to help them out. And then people do come and go, but the commits are still there! So that's something, right? [chuckles] Like, things have taken some steps forward. DAMIEN: Yeah. People come and go, that's something you know you have to accept on an open source project, but it happens in other places, too. [chuckles] No team stays together for all of eternity. JEN: Right. DAMIEN: Is the project going to live on and how can you make it so that it does? So these are very good lessons, even for that. ARTY: It seems like just investing in thinking about, we were talking initially about planning for the success case, even when things happen. So if we think about the case of okay, people are going to leave the team. [chuckles] What's the success case look like? Imagining the way that things go really well when people are leaving the team, what does that look like? What are the things that we wish we had in place to be able to ramp people up quickly, to be able to find new people, to work on the project quickly? All of those things that we can think about and open source has this to a much larger degree and challenge so that you really have to think about it a lot. Where on a commercial project, it's one of those things that often happens when you wish it wouldn't and one of the things I see in corporate companies is you'll have a management change, or something will happen with a product that upsets a bunch of people and you'll have exodus phase on the project and then ending up often rewriting things because you lose your core knowledge on the project and nobody knows what's going on anymore and it actually becomes easier to rewrite the things than to [chuckles] figure out how it works. If we had imagined the ways that things could go well and prepared for those certain circumstances, maybe we wouldn't be in that situation. ARTY: Yeah. You mentioned something really important there, too, which is what can we do to help people spin up more quickly on something. That's another big piece of sustained engagement because you need a group of people spun up quickly. You need a group of people who can figure out the next steps on their own. And so, we've spent a lot of time, the projects that I work most actively on, making sure that everything is there in the Read Me, making sure that if you run npm start that things work if you're running it on a different environment. Those types of little things, reducing those barriers can also go a long way and just widening the pool of people who could potentially help is another big one. DAMIEN: How do you do that? Because you're a core contributor on the project. You have the curse of knowledge. JEN: Yes. DAMIEN: You have a development scene that is tightly home to work on this project. JEN: That's a great question. Ah, I do have the curse of knowledge. Being easy to reach so that if people do encounter problems that they can find you and tell you, which can be, it can be a small step. Just making sure that if you have a documentation page, it's got a link at the bottom that's like, “Find a problem, open an issue!” That sort of thing. Also, I'm pretty active on Twitter. Sometimes other contributors, experienced contributors, they'll spot something that somebody else has posted and they'll say, “Hey, Jen, take a look at this,” and they bring it to my attention. There's this team effort to uncover those gaps. Another aspect is just working in the open. So having open meetings, having open chat channels, places where people can interact with the people leading the projects, they can come to the meetings, things like that means that we're more likely to hear their feedback. So if we get feedback, “Hey, this thing was difficult,” making sure that we address it. DAMIEN: Wow. Well. JEN: I'm really big into user experience driven design. We've been talking about maintainability a lot, we've been talking about the code, and versions, and things, but coming back to what is the impact for our users. If you accept a user experience driven way of developing software, it means that you're always going to need to be upgrading, you're always going to have to be flexing, changing, and growing because the products of 2 years ago versus the product of today can be really different. Open source library that you needed to rely on 2 years ago versus today. Maybe the web app ecosystem has shifted. Maybe there's new ways of doing things. Maybe there's new syntaxes that are available. Sometimes, it can be a little frustrating because you feel like, “Oh, there's this endless pile of work. We made all these wrong choices back in the day and now this thing's hard to upgrade,” and all that. A different mindset is to think about what do we know today that is different than what we knew yesterday? What are the things we know today about our users that inform our next move? How do these upgrades, or improvements, or my choice of open source library help the end user have a better experience? And trying to come back to that big picture from time to time, because it can be pretty frustrating. When you get stuck, you think like, “Oh, I can't. I just tried to upgrade this major version and everything broke and everything's terrible. But what's the feature list look like, how am I going to use this to deliver something better to the users can really help?” DAMIEN: Wow. ARTY: So at this part of the show, we usually do reflections and finish off with any final thoughts we had, or takeaways from the episode. Damien, you want to start? DAMIEN: The big takeaway I got from this is kind of… it's perspective. Jen, you mentioned a user experience driven design. I was already really close to that language, but from a perspective of contributors to an open source project, sponsors—both in terms of engineering and then money—and then also, users. Like, these are also users. These are also people who are impacted by the work we do. So in order to do it successfully, it's very important to think of how can this go well for them and then move to that direction. So thank you, that was really great. M: For me, the big takeaway, I feel like I learned a whole lot just perspective wise of what it's like to work on a big open source project. I haven't really had a conversation like this with someone that's been that involved with a major resource project before. So I found that really insightful. One of the big questions I asked you about how do we make this sustainable? [laughs] Like all the challenges around things. I know they're big challenges that we face in figuring that out and you had some really key insights around how we can frame things differently as opposed to framing it as an obligation, like a social obligation, or you should do this altruistically because it's the right thing to do as the appeal that we make is when you're talking to a contributor, how do you frame things to be a value proposition for them as an individual. When we're talking to a company, how do we frame things in a way so there's a value proposition for the company to get involved with doing something? And change the way that we frame all these things to be able to get folks involved because they realize benefits as individuals, as company, as people being directly involved in things? I feel like if we can do some work to maybe change some of the framing around things. That maybe there's a pathway there to increase engagement and support of open source projects, which I think is one of those things that we really need to figure out. There's not really easy answers to that, but I feel like some of the insights you came to there are really key in finding a pathway to get there. So thank you, Jen. I appreciate the conversation. JEN: So for me, when I'm reflecting on the most is the story that you shared already of trying to get people involved and just having them leave. They show up for a little while and then they disappear and where does all that work go? I'm interested to explore a little bit more of that small project life cycle. I was pretty fortunate to just come in at a time where there was already a well-established community when I started getting involved in Ember and I'd love to hear more from other people about what are the success stories of those first few steps where someone began this little project and it really started to grow and take off. This might be a case where like some of the strategies I described, they work when you already have an established community. So it's kind of like a catch-22. I don't know, that could be a really cool future episode is the beginning. DAMIEN: Yeah. That's something I'd definitely like to hear about. ARTY: Well, thank you for joining us, Jen. It was really a pleasure talking with you. JEN: Thanks so much for having me! Special Guest: Jen Weber.

Chad talks to Leadership Coach and Founder of Plucky, Jen Dary, about working with individuals and companies to create healthy dynamics at work. In fact, Plucky just released a new product that aids in doing just that! Manager Weeklies are notebooks designed to help leaders intentionally set up their weeks and track progress. It includes tips and tricks, including useful 1:1 tools. Each notebook is designed to last one quarter. Follow Jen Dary on Twitter (https://twitter.com/jenniferdary) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jen-dary-46b0367/) Plucky (https://www.beplucky.com/) Manager Weeklies info & order link (https://shop.beplucky.com/products/manager-weeklies-2-pack) Newsletter: beplucky.com/newsletter (https://beplucky.com/newsletter) Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Jen Dary, founder of Plucky. Jen, welcome back to the podcast. JEN: Thank you. My third time. Three time's a charm. I feel very lucky. CHAD: There aren't many people who have been on the podcast as guests three or more times. So you're in an ever-increasing select group of returning guests. JEN: Thank you. I feel like it's maybe because the Tokyo Olympics have just started, but I feel competitive and ready to take on this third session. CHAD: [laughs] So the last time you were on was October 28th, 2019 is when the episode came out. JEN: Millennia ago. CHAD: Not quite two years ago, but yeah, also a millennia ago. And that was Episode 342 so if people want to go back and take a listen to that. And then before that, you were on Episode 270, which I actually don't even know the date of. It was even longer. So welcome back. You are celebrating the eighth anniversary of Plucky. JEN: I know. I don't really think of it in these ways because I don't have an MBA, or I didn't come from a business background or anything. But definitely when I hit five years, I feel like my husband said something about that. He was like, "Honey, you should be really proud. Not a lot of businesses make it five years." And that was not really on my mind. But now that Plucky is eight, I feel like oh man, I'm just so happy to talk about how businesses evolve and how what you thought it was going to be in year one was different than year three, was different than year five, and of course, it's different than year eight. So we're eight years in, but nothing's the same, and everything's the same. I'm sure you've experienced that too. CHAD: It was actually the eighth year going into the ninth year mark that we at thoughtbot started to make big changes. And it was that idea of coming up on a decade. It started to feel like, wow, there's real momentum here. And instead of thinking about what the next year looks like, what does the next decade look like? And are we the kind of company that is going to last 20 years? And that put us in a different mindset. And I started to think about the impact we were having and the legacy that we would have. And was it big enough for the size of the company that we had? JEN: How old is thoughtbot right now? CHAD: We just celebrated our 18th anniversary. JEN: Oh my gosh. All right. Well, maybe at the very end, you can give me your best wisdom for the ninth year. [laughter] CHAD: Oh jeez. Okay. [chuckles] JEN: No presh, but tuck that in the back of your brain. CHAD: Yeah, get some sleep. That's my best advice. JEN: [laughs] Great. CHAD: That would be great. We can come back to that. JEN: Cool. CHAD: So obviously, it's been a big two years since we last talked. I'm sure a lot has progressed in Plucky. How have things changed? JEN: Well, what's funny is that the two years spread that we're talking about or 18 months or whatever it is, for the most part, overlaps with COVID so far. So by the end of 2019, things were cooking, and everything is good. And even, personally speaking, my youngest son would be entering kindergarten in the fall of 2020. Again, as a business owner, a mom, all those things I was sort of at the end of 2019 hot, so good. And then I was anticipating 2020 to be continued pretty much the same as is. Like, we would keep training managers. I would keep traveling. All that would get easier because the kids are getting bigger, then my kid would go to kindergarten. And I was also finishing a book about...I can't remember if we talked about this before, but I was really sick in 2016. I had a brain tumor diagnosis, and I'm okay now. It was benign. I had this memoir that was eh, I don't know, maybe two-thirds done. All that was the plan for 2020, Chad. And I'm sure this is shocking news to you, but none of it happened, including freaking kindergarten, obviously in person. So on the business side of things, I kept everything stable as best as I could. So coaching kept going because coaching has always been remote. We have some products, and we kept shipping those out as best we could. At the very beginning of COVID, when everybody thought it was this three, four-week hiatus from real life, I recorded a story every day. Because I was like, what can I do for all the world that's working? So I recorded a storytime for Plucky with my kids. And I put it out on social media so that working parents could have another 15 minutes of distraction for their kids. That's how cute I was back then. [laughter] After one month of that, I was like, I need somebody to read stories to my kids. Yikes. CHAD: Yeah. [laughs] JEN: So the big thing that changed was that our manager trainings in person obviously I had to cancel those. So I transitioned from in-person to virtual events, and that has continued. And as of this recording, end of July, I was thinking that our November event this year…it's the 20th cohort of So Now You're a Manager. I was going to have it in person. And just last week, I pulled the plug on that. And I was like, no, we're going to stay virtual a little bit longer because I don't know how to predict what the hell is coming. So again, that sort of stabilizing, right? Like, okay, well, now I know how to do the virtual. That will be the stable choice this year, which is weird to say, but true. CHAD: Yeah. So you just gave a great organic listing of the things that Plucky does, and a big part of that was that in-person So Now You're a Manager training, which, if people remember from the previous episodes, new managers at thoughtbot have attended over the years. It's a really great training for people who become managers. So what was transitioning that to remote like? Because you'd only ever done it in person before, right? JEN: Yeah, totally. The first 11 cohorts were in person, and then we got to 12, and that was supposed to happen in March in Atlanta. We canceled that, and it wasn't until June that we had the 12th, and that was the first virtual one. And to say that I needed to go through stages of grief is probably pretty accurate. [chuckles] My energy in person is so a thing, like a tool of mine and just pulling people together, and making safe space for conversations and all that jazz. So I was like, what the hell is that going to be like on Zoom? And meanwhile, remember I'm watching my first grader go through the shenanigans of Zoom for the end of that year. And I'm like, oh my God, how am I possibly going to get grown-ups on this and paying attention and not being distracted? So a couple of things, I will say number one is I definitely interviewed four or five people in the industry who are good at virtual events, and I tried to get their deepest wisdom about it. The second thing is that I made the cohorts smaller. So in person, we have around 20 to 22 max, and in virtual, we do 10 to 12 max. And so that got a lot smaller. Also, instead of being two days back to back, I broke it into three half days which is just a different ask. And I wasn't sure if people would bite at that. I tried to mimic it after how some people do an MBA on the side. So then they go to work, and they practice the stuff they're learning at the MBA. And so that has been my thought like, okay, you'll be with me basically for a month. We'll have three half days together, usually on a Friday. And then you're practicing in the meantime. So between the times I see you, you're improving your listening skills. You're coming back with anecdotes about hires or tough conversations or whatever. So I won't say that's like a silver lining, but it's just a different beast. And the first day I did it, I mean, I'm telling you, I was on the bathroom floor on my knees like, don't let the internet go out. CHAD: [laughs] JEN: I was so scared. I don't know why looking back. I'm in tech, but I'm not technical. It's my husband who helps me set up a monitor and whatnot. Oh God, I was so nervous. And I just thought, shit, this is the thing I can't problem-solve. If the internet goes out, I don't know what to do, but if someone's upset, I can help them. So it just brought all of my skills in a different environment. And now I feel pretty good about it. I don't know if you found this with your distributed company overall, but I have worked very hard to make sure that it's a blend, of course, this digital experience, but also I use the mail. I use snail mail a lot. So attendees get a packet before we begin. They get a gift at the end, a graduation gift. And yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot about how to have a hand-in-hand experience of digital as well as a physical object that they can touch to make that experience more than just a screen. CHAD: Yeah, I think that's important. How did changing the format, reducing the class size, what business ramifications were there for that? JEN: Well, it's way less money. [chuckles] CHAD: Right. Okay, sorry. JEN: No. Oh my God. I want to be very real about these things, especially for people starting their businesses. It's way less money. And also if you think about it, everybody had already bought tickets to Atlanta, and then they had already started buying tickets to...I can't remember what the next one was going to be, New York, I think. So for a lot of the year, everything was, I'll say, comped, but that's not really what's going on. All of a sudden, the amount of seats that I thought I was selling for the year got reduced in about half, and much of that were already pre-bought tickets. So, as a line item, that was way lower. I also think I got...man, I haven't really said this transparently to anybody before, but I'll say it here. I got really scared about what to charge. Do you charge the same thing virtually than you do in person? And so I lowered it, I would say for a year. I lowered it by a couple of hundred dollars for each ticket because I didn't know what the market wanted. And also, I didn't know, oh God, were businesses closing? Were people getting prof dev budgets? Everybody was frozen for a good while. So I'm lucky that now today I'm back up to the same price that it had been before, but it's not as much income per event. And the other thing I'll say which affects money…but again, I want to be transparent for other folks who think about or currently run businesses. One great thing to come out of some of the social unrest of last year is that we now have an equity scholarship for So Now You're a Manager. So in every cohort, be that virtually or in person, I always reserve a seat for someone who's coming from an underrepresented group, so people apply. And that is something that I very happily said I will eat the cost of that ticket because it's important to me to have different voices in the room. And that has been a total awesome thing this year. That just started in January of 2021, but that's something really great that came out of last year. CHAD: Yeah. What did you find that customers wanted, and did it change over time? Was there an appetite for it to be remote, or was there resistance to it? JEN: I think at first people were overwhelmed and didn't want it. That's why I held it from March until June until I thought people were ready. I can tell you categorically that I've had the lowest percentage of parents attend of all time because, let's be real, who wants another kind of obligation? Or also, parents during this time, especially with young children, were not in that growth space necessarily for work because there was so much to keep afloat. So other than the three half days, I also have this optional hour that I throw in just if people can come; there's this extra exercise that didn't fit in from the original curriculum. And I don't think I've had one parent, maybe one, come across all those cohorts that have been virtual to that. So the optional stuff I see parents opting out of. That said, I saw more folks who maybe either live alone or maybe have a roommate but who are pre-family or some people won't have families but someone who was socially like, "It was so hard and tiring last year." And that sort of swung back around towards the summer and end of summer. I saw much more interest there because I think people were really lonely. CHAD: Yeah. And I also think, at least for me personally and for thoughtbot, that was when the thinking definitely shifted that this wasn't going to be going away anytime soon. And so we came to terms with that and started to then make much more long-term plans and permanent changes. JEN: I think it was also in the...I want to say like early fall when Twitter announced they'd be remote. Like, they have an office, but they wouldn't oblige anyone to ever come back again. And whenever that decision was made, there were a couple of other companies...At that point, I was still living in the Bay Area, and there were a couple of other companies that made similar suggestions. And so again, to your point, there was a revisioning of what the next phase was like or at least what to expect. And so, I think people weren't holding out to go back to normal. It was like, what's the new normal? CHAD: Yeah. So when we first shut down offices and went remote, we were giving updates every two weeks, and then it changed to every month. And then it would be like, "There's really no change. We're going to give another update in April." And then April was, "We'll give another update in May." And when it came to June, we just said, "We're planning on being in this mode for at least the end of the year. Let's start all acting and make this sustainable." So that is when our thinking changed too. JEN: Did you feel like with your CEOness and business responsibility over there...what kept you grounded for all that thing? Because obviously every time you make that announcement or regardless of whether that's in person or just...I don't even know– retention or whatever it is. It feels like you're just building strategy on freaking quicksand. CHAD: It wasn't easy. You feel responsible for everybody's well-being, both financially and everything else. And so the lack of stability…you want to provide it in an unstable world. You want to say, "Well, at least you shouldn't have to worry about this. Let's provide…" but it was impossible to do. And I'm much more comfortable with uncertainty. I think there's a spectrum of comfortableness with uncertainty, and I'm pretty far on one end of it, and even I was struggling. Same thing with like I'm very much on the spectrum of not having to worry about anxiety or anything like that, and even I was feeling it. And so I was just like...at one point I said to I think it was Diana or whatever "If I'm feeling this, if I'm getting chest palpitations, [laughs] something's really wrong, and we really need to pay attention to how everybody else is feeling." JEN: Oh, yeah. I even saw that anxiety obviously with coaching clients. There are some clients that when budgets dried up, there was like an initial drop-off, I would say March, April. But then I feel very lucky that the pipeline was still very strong, and I had clients stay with me or join or whatever. You remember as well as anybody not only did we have this health crisis going on, which again we still do but my last class...So third of three of the cohort in May last year was a couple of days after George Floyd's murder. And the responsibility I felt too...like, when all these things were going on last summer, it was like, who freaking cares about anything? It's like these huge things. And you start to say nothing matters. There are only three things that matter in life. And then you kept sort of recycling the drain on that. So here I am going into teaching the third of three classes. And during the third class, I always teach concepts on how to hire, concepts on how to lay someone off and fire someone, which everyone's always very barfy and nervous about. And I try to bring us together and graduate us in what feels like a victorious moment. But that's three days after George Floyd's murder, and everyone is reeling and needing to process. And I remember thinking that morning, I don't know how this is going to go because I was fully willing to rip up the plan and do something different. But at the same time, there's also sometimes they want some structure. Folks want to just show up and take this class and be distracted from what's going on in the world. So we sort of talked about this a few minutes before we started recording but really, what has been fascinating and challenging about continuing to train managers over the last two years is that these very large things are going on in the background: George Floyd's murder, a lot of social unrest in Minneapolis, the election, COVID, all these things. And you can't just put that away and show up to manager training. It is freaking relevant because it is relevant for them. Of course, it's very meta, but all of my students are then going to go back and be responsible for 3, 5, 7 other people in their day-to-day work. So it was really wild, but again, stretching and a challenge that I met with a lot of intention. I don't know if I was always super successful at it, but I thought a lot about it. CHAD: Yeah, I think that was the shift that we saw on our team. And what I've heard from people is that enough is enough in several different categories of things. And like, we just can't keep on doing what we were doing before. It's not working, and it is unacceptable. People are angry too. So it's not just processing. It's anger and wanting to see action, wanting to take action. And yet, doing it in a world where we can't actually be together, I think, made it particularly challenging for some people and for managers to know how to meet their team members where they were. And people process things in different ways too, and people need different things. And at that point, we had hired people who had only ever been remote. So I think the connections that you have with people that you might've worked with in person you can lean on a lot in the beginning. But then you're working with someone or managing someone who you've never met in person. JEN: Yeah. It's a whole new ball game. And I think that the notion of community has gone through the wringer, not only in the worst, it's a rebirth almost. I think the notion of locally what's going on for you and then who can you see? Who can you have a barbecue with? All of those questions of like, who can I be with? Of course, the internet's great, but the internet has some major, major boundaries to it. And people see that at work, and they see that in training. CHAD: One of the things we're struggling with in that category now is there are people who live next to each other because we were historically in offices. And as it becomes more possible to get together with each other, and this is something that, as managers, we're trying to navigate, it actually has a huge potential for exclusion now that we have hired a bunch of people who are anywhere. If the teams that were in-person together but are now working remotely start getting in person again, even if it's just an outing at a park, who's not able to attend that, and how will they feel? And what expectations have we set with them? And then you have just sort of equity and inclusion issues around people we've hired in Brazil since we've gone remote. There's no way for them to come. JEN: Sure. CHAD: It's not fair. And navigating that as a team, I think we've been able to do that, but it hasn't been easy. JEN: I think sometimes the only way to see it is none of it will work. So if none of it will work, then cool. The bar's low. [laughter] Yeah, it's not going to be perfect. And all in person had its issues too. So then, if you just sort of bottom it out and say, cool, cool, cool, there's no one silver bullet answer here. So what that means is yes, as human beings, folks who are possibly able to meet up for coffee will resonate and glow and be psyched to be around some other people. So, how do we say "No," less often to that? Because that's great. That's really something to celebrate. And I'm sure if everybody was in that situation, they would try to take advantage of that too. But then to say, if you're not in that situation, here's another option. And then, every once in a while, we'll mix those options together and have like a rolling menu with it so that nothing gets too static and paralyzed and presumed. And it's in that flow state, which of course, is more fatiguing because you have decision fatigue, and you got to keep making decisions about it. But if you can just say, "Oh, well, we're going to decide that on a week to week basis or on a quarter to quarter." I probably have said this to you before in one of these other podcast conversations, but I just really think that life is a giant science experiment. So if that's true, then you can just say, "Hey, y'all, for Q3, we're going to try this. And at the end of Q3, we'll ask you how that went, and we'll either keep doing it, or we'll totally change it, or we'll increment it." Software people are really good at this because they know that not everything has to go from 2.0 to 3.0. You could go 2.1, 2.2, 2.3. There are incremental builders. So if you can leverage that metaphor even culturally or socially with the makeup of the team and the way you run things, I don't know; I kind of think that's the best you got. CHAD: Yeah. And I think we generally have the idea that we trust people and that we can provide the information. And people will generally use that information to make good decisions that are oriented towards fulfillment. So a really good example when it comes to managers is in an environment where if you're meeting in person with someone, one team member and you're their manager, and you're not meeting in person with another, that could influence negatively the other person's path to promotion or the relationship they have with you and just subtly bias you towards the person that you might be able to meet in person with. And so as a manager, making sure people know that, that that is a thing that can happen is a good way to manage that bias because I think generally, people don't want to let that happen, but they might not even realize it, so they can actively manage it. JEN: Well, it sounds like even in that thought, you are gently nudging people back towards intention and back towards just not sleepwalking through their work, that this is important for us, not only in the distance conversation here but also obviously for race, and for gender and for all kinds of different ways that humans are. We will never get it 100% right and yet intention, and taking a beat, and taking a breath before you move into conversations about promotions or whatever will help remind you hang on a second, remember there's invisible stuff inevitably going on based on who I am and where I came from. How do I make sure things are fair today? Or whatever the reminder needs to be. It sounds like that's...I don't know. It's good that you have that front of mind. CHAD: So that's one example of remote management. How much of before the pandemic were people who were coming and attending the workshops? Were they managing people remotely? And how much of your curriculum was specific to that, if any? JEN: My gut says maybe about a third were remote managers. They are definitely with bigger companies that I was seeing that. The small agencies based in Pittsburgh, you know, Austin, those places were pretty localized. But so what you get with a bigger company is also a bit more infrastructure that supports some of these cultural conversations. And we had it as part of the curriculum, but it wasn't very big, and maybe I would sort of be intentional. There are breakout groups and stuff like that. And I might think I'm going to pair these two together for their practice one-on-one because I know they're both remote managers. I am very intentional about a lot of the pairings and all that stuff, and so I would be thoughtful in that way. But now, on some level, in all these virtual workshops, everybody has an equal footing now. So everybody's kind of screwed, and everybody's also making it work. So that has been a very interesting thing to see. And I always laugh at this example, a woman who came early on, maybe like the eighth or ninth cohort, and she's a remote manager. And she would say, "Well, I don't have a water cooler. I don't have, like, I'm walking down the hall sensing somebody's upset or anything." But she would say, "This is going to sound weird, but I keep an eye on how fast they emoji something." So if you have a person who...You know this person in Slack. They're always on Slack, always so supportive, funny, have something to say, a little thumbs-up emoji, or whatever. But if one day they're at work for sure and they haven't said anything about something, she would learn to read the tea leaves like that and check-in. And I just thought that was so clever and very creative. And what she's alluding to is this level three listening that I teach, which is gut or instinct or intuition. And what she was tracking was basically a change in behavior. And that's pretty much what we're tracking when we're in the office too. There could be many reasons why somebody doesn't emoji something right away. Maybe your daughter just ran into the room. Maybe there's a doorbell. There are a million things. But at the same time, not to be too precious about it but to casually track that at least instinctively. She was doing a good job of meeting the moment as best she could. CHAD: Are there other ways in which what you've been doing has changed over the last year? What are managers concerned about or challenged by? JEN: Yeah. First of all, I always had name tags that allowed for pronouns. But this is now certainly part of the curriculum. When we start, I give some social norms and then some tech norms. And so I make the suggestion that in Zoom, after your name, you put your pronouns. And it's not a huge chunk because I really don't feel like I am the best to teach this, but I've added in a DEI component, diversity, equity, inclusion component. And we have some folks in the alumni community who are DEI consultants, so that's great. I always give them shout-outs and refer over if people are looking for that. I've noticed that people are...I'll say careful, but what I mean by careful is that they are aware of all of the stuff we're talking about, like race and social stuff. Depending on where your office was in the country, the election was sometimes really hard. I think about companies in Ohio or Pennsylvania or swing states where it was not obvious that everybody in the office was on the same page about that. And the way that that stuff comes up and is like this piece of baggage in the room that prevents literally like a website being made. We want to think no, that shouldn't enter. That's not relevant here. And yet people are careful about both trying to say, "Listen, bring who you are. You're accepted here." And also like, well, sometimes what you're suggesting you believe about the world is harmful. The whole Basecamp thing is a good example of that. And so I found the managers who come to my training to just be open to not only sharing their experiences with that but looking very much for some guidance on that from their peers and then from me. CHAD: That's sort of what I was saying about people felt like you needed to be changing the way that you were approaching things. It wasn't okay anymore for most people to say, "We shouldn't be having this conversation. It's not a work-related conversation." It affects people's work and their ability to work. It is a work issue. And you can't simply put everything aside. That's one angle of it, but we're not all equipped. We're not all educated. We're not all ready to be able to do that as managers. JEN: Totally. But with the amount of shit that we have had to handle for the last two years, short of somebody who's a social worker/priest, I don't know who was ready. I feel like a lot of what we're talking about is so resonant for me because all of this is so hard. And if you are alone doing hard things, it's impossible. But the reason that I run the manager trainings the way I do and the reason that I hold onto them after and I put them in a Slack community, they're now alumni of the program. And it's active; it depends on the day. But people have hard questions that they're wrestling with. People have jobs that they're promoting, that they're trying to get people to apply to. It's this active community that goes on afterwards. Because, honestly, Chad, I feel like a big input into me creating So You're Now a Manager and the community around it was my experience becoming a parent. I was one of the first ones of all my friends. I was the first one of my siblings, and my son was the first grandchild on both sides. And I was like, this is so lonely. All my friends are going out in Brooklyn for dinner. And I was 31. It's not like I was very young or anything, but that's New York. And so I had a moms' group. And man, that moms' group got me through those early days because we could all laugh at how hard it was. We could cry together. And when I looked at the transition that people go through from IC, individual contributor, to manager or some level of leadership, you get responsibility. You have to play the messenger sometimes, something you're not totally down with. You have sometimes competition with peers. You have to manage up sometimes. And then you have these people who come to you with requests: I want a new career path. I want more money. I want a different title. And the slog of that is very reminiscent, on some level, of parenting to me. So I thought, well, this is not going to be like, here's your book. Good luck being a manager, although books could be helpful. For me, it seemed like there was at least a certain template of a person in the world who could use community too. So I always say you'll be with me for two days or a month if it's virtual. But I can't possibly teach you everything you'll encounter. That said, we can get some critical skills under your belt. And then you can just continue to riff with this peer network. And that has been a very, I would say, unique thing about the manager training I run and something that is so fulfilling to me. I have a very tiny business. Those are, in weird ways, kind of my colleagues, the funny jokes they tell or those personalities. That was another thing that we had to let go of. In 2020, I was going to have the first reunion. CHAD: Oh yeah. We actually talked about that in the previous episode as an idea. JEN: Heartbreaking. Yeah, it was called Encore. Basically, it was a follow-up and open to anybody that has already taken SNYAM, So Now You're a Manager. I had people who pitched talks, and we had selected them. And yeah, we had to pull the plug on that. So my hope is that next year we can do that. And now we've got almost...actually; I think we just hit 300 people, so maybe 50 will come, I don't know. We'll see. But I like the idea of providing a space for these folks who were new managers when I knew them and when they came through me but have gained some skills themselves and could become thought leaders in this management space. And whenever the world is ready for it, I'm excited to put that together. CHAD: Yeah, that's awesome. That sense of community is one thing I've struggled with, to be honest. Because having done this for 18 years, there aren't many people who worked at the company that work there now anymore. [chuckles] We've grown too. So I no longer have the close personal relationship that I had with most people at the company before or close work relationships. And combined with as we've grown, it's harder...you have to be more of a leader. You have to put yourself aside. It's harder to always be a servant to others. And then I found that especially difficult last year. And it's part of why I needed to not be CEO anymore and to transition to the COO role. Because I couldn't be in a position where everyone was always looking to me continually to make...and as distributed as we are, one of our values is self-management. But continually always looking to me to be the one who always has an answer, who is the stable one, I needed a break from that. So it's been nice, the transition. JEN: I was going to say is it better? CHAD: [chuckles] So it's a little bit different than I expected. So what happened was we made that change. We made other changes, and that was all going well. And then, in February, the largest vaccine scheduling provider in the United States came to us and needed help scaling the infrastructure and all that stuff. JEN: Oh my God. That's exciting. CHAD: And so I, along with a crack team of other experienced thoughtboters, went and spent all of our time focused on that. It has pros and cons, which is right as I was transitioning into a new role; I completely got pulled away and started working full-time with that client for a very important cause, which is the reason why we did it and decided it was worth it. The silver lining is it put everyone else in a position where we went very quickly from Chad's no longer the CEO to Chad's not here right now. [chuckles] And that was unexpected. But I think that it had downsides, but it had upsides too in terms of really being in a position where people could come into their own, into their new roles and sort of a forcing function for some of the changes that we needed to make. JEN: You know, I'll give you major props on that, Chad. Because 18 years and especially, I think this about a lot of things, but especially business here, people get stuck. They really do. They get stuck, especially founders, CEOs. They don't know how to get out of something if they're tired. And there are not a lot of models for what that could look like. The biggest disservice someone could make to leading a company would be to not really be feeling it because that shit trickles down. And if you're tired or if it's not your thing anymore, really, the biggest gift you can give is to go get aligned somewhere else and then hand over the reins to what I keep thinking of as the next generation. I coach a lot of people, or I work with a lot of people who are in the middle, let's say, so they're not C-suite, and they're not newest managers, but they're sort of senior there. They're totally ready to go. I can't overstate that. [chuckles] Will they mess stuff up? Sure. So did you. Will they have questions? Absolutely. But the next generation of every company it's the most strategic thing that a CEO could do is to think, what happens if I'm not here? That allows you to take a freaking vacation, like take a month off. Or that allows you to meet such a huge civic call, which you're describing here, and step away. Or again, God forbid something happened, and you get very sick; it allows the company to be bigger than yourself. So I just commend you on even having the courage to step towards COO and then obviously also kind of redirect as needed this year. But I hope that if there are other CEOs listening or folks in the C-suite who are wiped, this is my gentle nudge to them to hand over the reins at some point. Because you'll get a paycheck, I'm sure you can figure that. CHAD: [chuckles] Being wiped was one small part of it. And I had Diana on who's the new CEO, and we talked about this. We had grown to a certain point. Also, to toot my own horn, I had done a really good job of building a team of managing directors who were really good at what they were doing. And I was no longer the best manager for them. I was no longer what they needed in order to continue to grow. I could do it, but I wasn't the best person for it. So that was the overriding reason to make the change, and being tired and needing to not always be the one that everyone was looking to was certainly a part of it. But yeah, it's been good. JEN: Yeah. I figured we would get there at some point, but we talked a little bit earlier about how I have this new product coming out in September. So the product is called Manager Weeklies, and it's basically...I got to figure out the exact noun for this. I guess this is the marketing moment. [chuckles] But it's basically a small notebook. The way I think of it is it helps you take a deep breath before your week starts. And so I'm not messing with your to-do lists. Everybody has different versions of that, Trello or wherever the heck you keep it. But before you start the week, it is so important to wonder where's my energy at? What's my perspective? What are the couple of priorities? What am I blocking? Just a couple of invitation questions there. And then the idea is that you then can do this on whatever, a Sunday night or Monday morning. And then the rest of the week has, I feel like I've said intention 50 times in this conversation but has intention in it. You can decline those three meetings because they're not the highest priority. You can make some space to actually do the work that comes out of the meetings that you're in. And what I have watched over the last maybe three years are my coaching clients who get themselves together at the beginning of the week who have some sort of practice about setting things up in a good way are the most successful. They get the promotions because they look like they know what they're doing because they do. So anyway, it's called Manager Weeklies. So it's a small notebook. Each notebook is for a quarter. And then, because I'm a coach, I also filled it with other good stuff. Like at the end, there are all kinds of prompts for ways to give praise to people on your team, ways to give feedback, ways to handle conflict, ways to say, "Yes, no, maybe." And then there's a Work Wheel tool at the very end. And so my hope is that people who just feel like they show up on a Monday already behind that they would find some help with that intention. And I feel like what you're saying is that self-awareness component that came through for you, Chad, to say, I'm not the best at this, and also, I'm a little fatigued and so, therefore, deep breath. Here's the strategy going forward. It wasn't reactive, but there was some thought behind it. And so we'll see this fall people get a chance to try that out. CHAD: That's awesome. I feel like it's getting back to your roots but also building on it. So for people who don't know, the Plucky Cards were actually the first way that I was introduced to you was someone showing me a pack of those cards. So, where can people find out more about that? JEN: The best way for people to find any information is just to subscribe to the newsletter. I send it once a month. It's usually a reflection on work, life, something going on there. So if you go to beplucky.com/newsletter, then you'll be first in the know. What's very funny, Chad, is I have a former coaching client who holds the record now. He was the first one to buy the first pack of cards. He was the first one to buy the second pack of cards. [laughs] And he was also the first one to do this Small Group ticket that I recently did as a little offshoot of Plucky. So anyway, in my mind, I always laugh, and I wonder, I wonder if he's going to grab the first pack of Manager Weeklies this fall. But you're right. They certainly plug and play with the cards very well where there's even space in the weekly template to say, what's the one-on-one topic for the week? So it could be a card that you pull, and you use, or it could just be something else going on in the world that you want to bring to all the one-on-ones. But I feel like there are a lot of things I'm not great at in the world, but the things I am good at are people. And then I listen to people over and over again through all of these experiences. And I try to hear what else do they need? What weird little thing can I invent that could help them with some of these things that they struggle with? And I'm also just really mindful of the fact that not everybody has the budget for coaching or for manager training. And I would love for Plucky to be a brand that even if you work for a nonprofit or if you don't have the money to pay for some of those more expensive things that you would have 35 bucks for a pack of cards or 20 bucks or whatever the pricing will be for the notebooks and that you can engage with my brand, even if you're not very wealthy. And I feel like as a person who works and serves an industry like tech, that is always really a priority for me to not only coach or work with the people with the most money. CHAD: Yeah. If I remember right, you designed the cards, right? JEN: Oh my God, I wish. No. CHAD: Oh, okay. JEN: For the first pack of cards I worked with, I don't know if you know him, Greg Storey. CHAD: Yeah. JEN: He's great. Greg Storey did my first deck of cards, and then he moved on, and he's doing other interesting things with his career. So I have a designer who helped me with the second deck of cards called the Manager Pack. So that's questions for managers of managers to bring to one-on-ones, and then the Manager Weeklies are coming out. I've been collaborating with a woman who runs a design little shop called YupGup in Delaware. So her name is Joni. So it is so wild, Chad. I wish that I had any design sense. But it's like, I make these things which look like a terrible PowerPoint. I'm like, here, then there will be a bullet. And then I give it to a designer like Joni at YupGup, and all of a sudden, she has a logo. And then she has some emojis and colors. And I'm like, this is how I felt when I was pregnant, and someone showed me a sonogram, and I was like, (gasps) there's a baby in there. CHAD: [laughs] JEN: This is how I felt when she showed me them, and it was so exciting. And I will never be good enough to even be talented at all to make these things myself. But I hold the idea, and then I find someone who wants to help me make that in the world. It's just magical. That is so fun for me. And so I just ordered them. Actually, I ordered 1,000 of them about three hours ago. And so they'll come in August, and I just know it will be very surreal when I open the box and look at them and think about how many people in the world and pens in the world will be used to set intention, to set up people's weeks and hopefully, make a softer and more fair and thoughtful place to work. CHAD: And one of the things I love about your business and products is that you know you're having an impact beyond that 1,000 notebooks that you put out in the world because each of those people manages 3, 4, 6, 7 people. And if you can make work better for those people, then you have a 7,000-person impact. JEN: Yeah. And it's funny you say that because I think that recently...I keep saying I'm about to go away for a month or just be out of work for a month as a break after this whole COVID time. Since starting Plucky eight years ago, I didn't really have a model. I am not a traditional business. And even though many people kept saying, "When are you going to hire? When are you going to build the team? When are you going to do all of that?" That is not the shape of Plucky medium-term or long-term. I'm not going to be a coach factory. I certainly could, but then I'd end up super burned out and not liking my job. And then I'd have a sad company, and it would be bad. So I don't want to do that. CHAD: And that's literally the opposite of Plucky. JEN: Right. I mean, in the name, right? So, where I have landed as a model is to look at what artists do. And you would never take an artist...I really like Lisa Congdon in Portland. She's a cool, cool artist. And I've heard her speak, and I like her a lot. And what would Lisa Congdon's team look like? She sure isn't hiring other artists to do the work that she's over-signed up for. You get Lisa. And so she has a shop, and then she has partnerships where she teaches at different universities. And as I move into the ninth year here, I'm thinking a lot about what's standing between me and Plucky's shape and what an artist like Lisa Congdon has going on? And honestly, fully transparently, I think it's that I need to own that Plucky is me. And it's so messy in marketing. Do you use the royal 'we'? We at Plucky? Who is we? And I think that there's some good growth in front of me this fall and next year to say, yeah, I'm Jen, and I run a company called Plucky. And I'm putting this stuff out in the world, and I hope to have ripple effects. And it won't be by hiring 100 people. It'll be just like you described, selling things to X people, and then those people's reports, those ripples will follow down. And I'm really grateful to have found myself in this place because I love coming to work every day. CHAD: Awesome. Well, even though you love coming to work every day, also enjoy your vacation. JEN: Oh my God. Thank you. CHAD: And your time off and your time to reflect. JEN: Yes, thank you so much. CHAD: You already mentioned the website, but again, mention that, and then are there other places that people can follow along or get in touch with you? JEN: Yes, sure. So the newsletter, like I said, is beplucky.com/newsletter. On Twitter, you can look at @BePlucky. I'm on LinkedIn, too, obviously for Plucky. And then I have basically a behind-the-scenes account on Instagram because it was too annoying...Like, what do you take pictures of, Chad, when you're a coach? You can't take pictures of confidential conversations. CHAD: [laughs] JEN: So Instagram, I was like, I don't know what to do with this anymore. So anyway, I just have a behind-the-scenes one over there, which is called bepluckster because somebody else had it. So yeah, so all those ways. And also, I just generally say that if you're a person listening to this podcast and you just wanted to say something to me or ask a question, you should always just email me. It's just hello@beplucky.com. I love just hearing from people. And I might not be able to send you a three-page essay back, but I really love just interacting. And if something moved you or made you think about something, whether that was something I said or Chad, you can always just shoot me a note and tell me what you're thinking. I am not precious about that. CHAD: Awesome. Likewise. So you can subscribe to the show and find notes for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us, Jen. JEN: Thank you. Announcer: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Jen Dary.

LIVE with Tova Leigh of Tova Leigh My Thoughts About Stuff-  Chatting about her new book, "You Did WHAT?: Secrets, Confessions and Outrageous Stories from Real Life"! Win a signed copy.Get Tova's New Book Here ➡️ http://www.amazon.com/You-Did-WHAT-Confessions-Outrageous/dp/1786785501 (affiliate link)Subscribe to our mailing list for exclusive content, new videos, giveaways, and free nannies. (Okay, that part's a lie...): http://eepurl.com/SJxVjSUBSCRIBE on Youtube: http://goo.gl/QSV97mFollow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MomCaveTVLike us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MomCaveTVPin with Us: http://www.pinterest.com/MomCaveTVInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/momcavetvTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@momcavetvOur blog/giveaways: http://www.MomCaveTV.com----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Read the full blog with video and transcript here:https://www.momcavetv.com/tova-leigh-you-did-what/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jen: I'm Jen from MomCave. And this is MomCave Live where we may have lost our minds, but not our senses of humor.I'm live with my buddy Tova Leigh, who is with us all the way from the UK. And if you don't know who Tova is, you're gonna wanna go and check out her page right after this, because it's, she's “Tova Leigh My Thoughts About Stuff” on Facebook, which kinda started as you know, your funny mom page and it went viral, but now it's so much more.You talk about all the things, Tova. Sex, marriage, life, friends, ladies, body image, women's rights. I can't even name them all. So, hi, thanks for being here to talk with me.Tova Leigh: Thank you so much for having me. I was just saying it's been so long actually since I've seen you, since we've spoken. I was so happy when you messaged me, and really grateful actually that you, wanted to have me on your live. So thank you.Jen: You're very welcome.So, Tova's first book was “F*C-K-E-D at 40.” And it's a wonderful thing to celebrate the fact that you are over 40, as am I, and we're just gonna admit it and like own it and live with it.Tova Leigh: Oh God! I love being in my 40s. I honestly do. It's so far been my favorite decade. Like it's the, yeah, it's the “F it Decade.”Jen: Yeah, because if it does matter, then F it, why like waste energy, time, thought?Tova Leigh: Exactly. I feel like the fact that I'm running out of time.Jen: I know that's the worst. Like the person who's always like death is near. I don't have time for it.Tova Leigh: Oh, yeah exactly. It's getting near. And some people might see that as something quite morbid and depressing, but I find it motivates me, really. Thoughts about death motivate me.Jen: I love it. See, you can have dark thoughts and laugh about them .Tova Leigh: I just think that listen, soon, I'll be able to really say more past than future and I need to get on with things. I'm not gonna waste my time on through, you know things, that don't matter. So yeah.Read the rest >>>https://www.momcavetv.com/tova-leigh-you-did-what/

LIVE with Tova Leigh of Tova Leigh My Thoughts About Stuff-  Chatting about her new book, "You Did WHAT?: Secrets, Confessions and Outrageous Stories from Real Life"! Win a signed copy.Get Tova's New Book Here ➡️ http://www.amazon.com/You-Did-WHAT-Confessions-Outrageous/dp/1786785501 (affiliate link)Subscribe to our mailing list for exclusive content, new videos, giveaways, and free nannies. (Okay, that part's a lie...): http://eepurl.com/SJxVjSUBSCRIBE on Youtube: http://goo.gl/QSV97mFollow us on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MomCaveTVLike us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MomCaveTVPin with Us: http://www.pinterest.com/MomCaveTVInstagram: http://www.instagram.com/momcavetvTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@momcavetvOur blog/giveaways: http://www.MomCaveTV.com----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Read the full blog with video and transcript here:https://www.momcavetv.com/tova-leigh-you-did-what/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Jen: I'm Jen from MomCave. And this is MomCave Live where we may have lost our minds, but not our senses of humor.I'm live with my buddy Tova Leigh, who is with us all the way from the UK. And if you don't know who Tova is, you're gonna wanna go and check out her page right after this, because it's, she's “Tova Leigh My Thoughts About Stuff” on Facebook, which kinda started as you know, your funny mom page and it went viral, but now it's so much more.You talk about all the things, Tova. Sex, marriage, life, friends, ladies, body image, women's rights. I can't even name them all. So, hi, thanks for being here to talk with me.Tova Leigh: Thank you so much for having me. I was just saying it's been so long actually since I've seen you, since we've spoken. I was so happy when you messaged me, and really grateful actually that you, wanted to have me on your live. So thank you.Jen: You're very welcome.So, Tova's first book was “F*C-K-E-D at 40.” And it's a wonderful thing to celebrate the fact that you are over 40, as am I, and we're just gonna admit it and like own it and live with it.Tova Leigh: Oh God! I love being in my 40s. I honestly do. It's so far been my favorite decade. Like it's the, yeah, it's the “F it Decade.”Jen: Yeah, because if it does matter, then F it, why like waste energy, time, thought?Tova Leigh: Exactly. I feel like the fact that I'm running out of time.Jen: I know that's the worst. Like the person who's always like death is near. I don't have time for it.Tova Leigh: Oh, yeah exactly. It's getting near. And some people might see that as something quite morbid and depressing, but I find it motivates me, really. Thoughts about death motivate me.Jen: I love it. See, you can have dark thoughts and laugh about them .Tova Leigh: I just think that listen, soon, I'll be able to really say more past than future and I need to get on with things. I'm not gonna waste my time on through, you know things, that don't matter. So yeah.Read the rest >>>https://www.momcavetv.com/tova-leigh-you-did-what/

Todd: Hey Jen, we're talking about technology. I'm curious. How many times do you check your email every day?Jen: Nowadays I check it every day because I have so many emails coming from my company so I have to be updated, but in the past, I would not check it for like, I would just check it two or three times a week. How about you?Todd: Yes, actually I brought that up because I think this is an interesting generational shift. I don't check Facebook and all that stuff that much, but my generation, we check email multiple times a day for work like you just said. But the younger generation from what I understand, you guys don't even use email.Jen: Yeah, like if you asked me the same question two months ago I would say I hardly check my emails because everything, like all the conversation I have, it's all on Facebook or some other social media, not emails. I think that's very old school.Todd: Yeah. So you do like text messaging, LINE, WhatsApp?Jen: Yeah, all of that.Todd: All of that. How many accounts do you have actively, that you actively use?Jen: Wait. Maybe ... I actively use five of them, but I have eight of them, yeah.Todd: Wow, you can manage that. The reason I don't do it, I imagine that you just must get a message like every 20 seconds.Jen: Not every 20 seconds, unless you're dating, but yeah, you get a lot of messages.Todd: Really? And that doesn't drive you crazy? That doesn't like bother you?Jen: I think in the beginning it was like too much, but now we have just gotten like used to it. It's just very normal for us. It's like you checking your mail three times a day, which is crazy for me.Todd: Yeah, but still. Here the thing is I don't like the phone. I think we've talked about this before. My generation was the fingers generation, so we used our fingers to type. And the younger generation, you use your thumb. And to me it's really slow and just painstaking to do, to communicate with your thumb on the phone.Jen: Really? Because for me I think it's faster than typing.Todd: I know. Actually, I see you guys and it's amazing. I see my students how fast they can use their phone, and it's phenomenal to me. It's like blurry, it's so fast.Jen: I think if you start using your phone more and not your PC then you would be fast at it too, because even if I were to check my mails I don't do it from my PC, I actually do reply to all my emails from my phone itself.Todd: Wow. Actually no, I think it's not true because I've tried. I think it's because I'm older. My phone gets stiff. I mean my phone ... My thumb gets stiff like arthritis or something like it literally stops moving. That's why I'm amazed.Jen: Maybe it's just in your head.Todd: I physically can't do it. No, no, I really like, and when I type I could type really fast, touch type, but I cannot move my thumb that fast. The more, the longer I try I get thumb fatigue like my thumb just stops, the joint won't work anymore.Jen: For me, it's very difficult for me to type really fast. I would rather use my thumb and text.Todd: No, that's cool. Now, these days I don't know if you've realized but you can do voice typing. Have you tried that? Google Docs for example, you don't even have to type anymore. You can just talk in a microphone and with no special software and Google Docs will type what you say.Jen: But then again you have to be very clear because it always makes a lot of mistakes.Todd: Yeah, but you know what's amazing about it, is I had, I was doing it with my students and then I was going to have my student do it and the voice recorder wouldn't take their voice, it would only take my voice.Jen: I think it's because the ...Todd: The user account name?Jen: Yeah, the user account name can only recognize your voice because that's been saved first.Todd: Right, so it saves the first voice, then another one won't work.Jen: Yeah, I guess.Todd: So that brings up the question, technology gets better and better and better. Do you think typing will be obsolete, will be gone in five, 10 years?Jen: I cannot really say but maybe no, not in 10 years. Maybe 20 to 30 years, yes, but not in 10 years, because I think still people are more comfortable writing their books and stuff like reports, just typing. Everybody doesn't like to talk a lot.Todd: True. Yeah, I think there's a different mental process when you type and it's just when you just speak it goes away.Jen: Yeah.

Todd: Hey Jen, we're talking about technology. I'm curious. How many times do you check your email every day?Jen: Nowadays I check it every day because I have so many emails coming from my company so I have to be updated, but in the past, I would not check it for like, I would just check it two or three times a week. How about you?Todd: Yes, actually I brought that up because I think this is an interesting generational shift. I don't check Facebook and all that stuff that much, but my generation, we check email multiple times a day for work like you just said. But the younger generation from what I understand, you guys don't even use email.Jen: Yeah, like if you asked me the same question two months ago I would say I hardly check my emails because everything, like all the conversation I have, it's all on Facebook or some other social media, not emails. I think that's very old school.Todd: Yeah. So you do like text messaging, LINE, WhatsApp?Jen: Yeah, all of that.Todd: All of that. How many accounts do you have actively, that you actively use?Jen: Wait. Maybe ... I actively use five of them, but I have eight of them, yeah.Todd: Wow, you can manage that. The reason I don't do it, I imagine that you just must get a message like every 20 seconds.Jen: Not every 20 seconds, unless you're dating, but yeah, you get a lot of messages.Todd: Really? And that doesn't drive you crazy? That doesn't like bother you?Jen: I think in the beginning it was like too much, but now we have just gotten like used to it. It's just very normal for us. It's like you checking your mail three times a day, which is crazy for me.Todd: Yeah, but still. Here the thing is I don't like the phone. I think we've talked about this before. My generation was the fingers generation, so we used our fingers to type. And the younger generation, you use your thumb. And to me it's really slow and just painstaking to do, to communicate with your thumb on the phone.Jen: Really? Because for me I think it's faster than typing.Todd: I know. Actually, I see you guys and it's amazing. I see my students how fast they can use their phone, and it's phenomenal to me. It's like blurry, it's so fast.Jen: I think if you start using your phone more and not your PC then you would be fast at it too, because even if I were to check my mails I don't do it from my PC, I actually do reply to all my emails from my phone itself.Todd: Wow. Actually no, I think it's not true because I've tried. I think it's because I'm older. My phone gets stiff. I mean my phone ... My thumb gets stiff like arthritis or something like it literally stops moving. That's why I'm amazed.Jen: Maybe it's just in your head.Todd: I physically can't do it. No, no, I really like, and when I type I could type really fast, touch type, but I cannot move my thumb that fast. The more, the longer I try I get thumb fatigue like my thumb just stops, the joint won't work anymore.Jen: For me, it's very difficult for me to type really fast. I would rather use my thumb and text.Todd: No, that's cool. Now, these days I don't know if you've realized but you can do voice typing. Have you tried that? Google Docs for example, you don't even have to type anymore. You can just talk in a microphone and with no special software and Google Docs will type what you say.Jen: But then again you have to be very clear because it always makes a lot of mistakes.Todd: Yeah, but you know what's amazing about it, is I had, I was doing it with my students and then I was going to have my student do it and the voice recorder wouldn't take their voice, it would only take my voice.Jen: I think it's because the ...Todd: The user account name?Jen: Yeah, the user account name can only recognize your voice because that's been saved first.Todd: Right, so it saves the first voice, then another one won't work.Jen: Yeah, I guess.Todd: So that brings up the question, technology gets better and better and better. Do you think typing will be obsolete, will be gone in five, 10 years?Jen: I cannot really say but maybe no, not in 10 years. Maybe 20 to 30 years, yes, but not in 10 years, because I think still people are more comfortable writing their books and stuff like reports, just typing. Everybody doesn't like to talk a lot.Todd: True. Yeah, I think there's a different mental process when you type and it's just when you just speak it goes away.Jen: Yeah.

Todd: Jen, we're talking about gifts. We were talking about giving gifts before. Now let's talk about receiving gifts. What is the best and worst gift you have received?Jen: Why don't you go first.Todd: Sure. Mine is easy. My step-father made a basketball hoop for me in our driveway. He made it for my birthday. It was pretty cool because, he put it up in one day. I had a car at that time, so I would have seen him making it, but I just came home one day, and there was a big basketball hoop with a big bow around it. It was on my birthday, and it was great. I used it every day and I had nieces and nephews. They used it. I had all my friends in the neighborhood come over. We had basketball tournaments. It was a really good gift.Jen: That's really cool. It's so nice of him that he would go through all that, and give you such a special gift.Todd: Yeah. The funny thing about it is, I think he really regretted it because, he wasn't thinking how loud a basketball would be when you bounce it. So when you would bounce the basketball, it made this really loud noise, echoing sound down the street. My dad was great. He was really cool.Jen: That's really nice.Todd: Yeah. It was nice. So how about you? Do you have a really special gift?Jen: For me, my special gift would be, my mom once made a suit. A pair of socks for me. They were really cute with little flowers on the right side of the socks. I would wear them every day when I was a kid. I though that was really special. I still have them in my bag.Todd: Oh really? Wow.Jen: Yeah. Winter is coming. I'm going to use it again.Todd: Socks wear out pretty easily. You've really kept them in good condition.Jen: Yeah. She probably used really good wool because, it's still there, and I still wear it a lot.Todd: That's great. What about a bad gift? Or a gift that you were not so crazy about.Jen: I don't know if it's okay to say I have a bad gift or something. But, yeah, once I did get a very big teddy bear from a friend who loved toys, by the way. She thought that I would love it as much as she did. She gave me this big toy, and I didn't know what to do with it. I was so embarrassed by it that I would actually hide it in my closet so that other friends cannot see it. Yeah. Every time she came to my house I would take it out and put it on my bed, but I hated that teddy.Todd: Oh no. Wow.Jen: What about your worst gift?Todd: Yeah. For me, a very close person to me, a good friend, bought me a shirt. It was lime green. It was so ugly. The texture also was really kind of rough. It had this ribbed texture. I knew the minute I saw it I would never wear it, ever. I felt bad because this person would come over to my house, and you could see where I kept my clothes in my closet. It was a very small room. That lime green shirt was just always there.Jen: That's so funny. What did you do with it? Did you wear it?Todd: I was thinking of a million ways to get rid of it. I would wear it occasionally if I knew my friend was going to come around and I wasn't going outside. I knew I had to wear it one or two times. Then, I used it to mop up some coffee once, and then I threw it out.Jen: What?Todd: I know.Jen: That's so crazy.Todd: I know. But, it wasn't quite so bad because there were actually two shirts. My friend bought the shirts, two for one, I guess. I still have the white shirt. But the lime green one, I got rid of. Yeah.Jen: You know what? You could have actually worn it during winter and put on a sweater on top of it, and then a coat or something. You didn't really have to do that. That's kind of mean.Todd: It is actually. It is mean. I don't know why, but for some reason, I really did not like the color. I just don't like lime green. I don't like neon colors, and I would see that bright, neon color all the time.Jen: I understand what you feel, but I do feel bad for your friend, though.Todd: I know. So am I a bad person?Jen: I don't know.Todd: No comment?Jen: No, you're not a bad person. Everyone has some problem with colors and stuff. I guess it's fine.Todd: Have you ever had something that just rubbed you the wrong way? For some reason, you look at it and it was an eyesore. You just hated looking at it. Like a piece of clothing, or maybe something in your house.Jen: Besides that toy I got, which I actually kind of like nowadays just because, it's with me and when I own something, after some time, I end up liking them because, they're mine, you know?Todd: Yeah. It grows on you.Jen: Exactly.Todd: Actually, just thinking about that lime shirt, it is growing on me now, and now I really regret it. I wish I had kept it.Jen: Too bad. You already spilled some coffee on it.

Todd: Jen, we're talking about gifts. We were talking about giving gifts before. Now let's talk about receiving gifts. What is the best and worst gift you have received?Jen: Why don't you go first.Todd: Sure. Mine is easy. My step-father made a basketball hoop for me in our driveway. He made it for my birthday. It was pretty cool because, he put it up in one day. I had a car at that time, so I would have seen him making it, but I just came home one day, and there was a big basketball hoop with a big bow around it. It was on my birthday, and it was great. I used it every day and I had nieces and nephews. They used it. I had all my friends in the neighborhood come over. We had basketball tournaments. It was a really good gift.Jen: That's really cool. It's so nice of him that he would go through all that, and give you such a special gift.Todd: Yeah. The funny thing about it is, I think he really regretted it because, he wasn't thinking how loud a basketball would be when you bounce it. So when you would bounce the basketball, it made this really loud noise, echoing sound down the street. My dad was great. He was really cool.Jen: That's really nice.Todd: Yeah. It was nice. So how about you? Do you have a really special gift?Jen: For me, my special gift would be, my mom once made a suit. A pair of socks for me. They were really cute with little flowers on the right side of the socks. I would wear them every day when I was a kid. I though that was really special. I still have them in my bag.Todd: Oh really? Wow.Jen: Yeah. Winter is coming. I'm going to use it again.Todd: Socks wear out pretty easily. You've really kept them in good condition.Jen: Yeah. She probably used really good wool because, it's still there, and I still wear it a lot.Todd: That's great. What about a bad gift? Or a gift that you were not so crazy about.Jen: I don't know if it's okay to say I have a bad gift or something. But, yeah, once I did get a very big teddy bear from a friend who loved toys, by the way. She thought that I would love it as much as she did. She gave me this big toy, and I didn't know what to do with it. I was so embarrassed by it that I would actually hide it in my closet so that other friends cannot see it. Yeah. Every time she came to my house I would take it out and put it on my bed, but I hated that teddy.Todd: Oh no. Wow.Jen: What about your worst gift?Todd: Yeah. For me, a very close person to me, a good friend, bought me a shirt. It was lime green. It was so ugly. The texture also was really kind of rough. It had this ribbed texture. I knew the minute I saw it I would never wear it, ever. I felt bad because this person would come over to my house, and you could see where I kept my clothes in my closet. It was a very small room. That lime green shirt was just always there.Jen: That's so funny. What did you do with it? Did you wear it?Todd: I was thinking of a million ways to get rid of it. I would wear it occasionally if I knew my friend was going to come around and I wasn't going outside. I knew I had to wear it one or two times. Then, I used it to mop up some coffee once, and then I threw it out.Jen: What?Todd: I know.Jen: That's so crazy.Todd: I know. But, it wasn't quite so bad because there were actually two shirts. My friend bought the shirts, two for one, I guess. I still have the white shirt. But the lime green one, I got rid of. Yeah.Jen: You know what? You could have actually worn it during winter and put on a sweater on top of it, and then a coat or something. You didn't really have to do that. That's kind of mean.Todd: It is actually. It is mean. I don't know why, but for some reason, I really did not like the color. I just don't like lime green. I don't like neon colors, and I would see that bright, neon color all the time.Jen: I understand what you feel, but I do feel bad for your friend, though.Todd: I know. So am I a bad person?Jen: I don't know.Todd: No comment?Jen: No, you're not a bad person. Everyone has some problem with colors and stuff. I guess it's fine.Todd: Have you ever had something that just rubbed you the wrong way? For some reason, you look at it and it was an eyesore. You just hated looking at it. Like a piece of clothing, or maybe something in your house.Jen: Besides that toy I got, which I actually kind of like nowadays just because, it's with me and when I own something, after some time, I end up liking them because, they're mine, you know?Todd: Yeah. It grows on you.Jen: Exactly.Todd: Actually, just thinking about that lime shirt, it is growing on me now, and now I really regret it. I wish I had kept it.Jen: Too bad. You already spilled some coffee on it.

Todd: So, Jen, the holiday season is coming up, and many cultures give gifts around the New Year's for different holidays. First of all, do you like to give people gifts?Jen: What kind of a person would I be if I said, "No, I don't like people giving people gifts?" But yeah, I'm not really good at choosing gifts for people though.Todd: Why do you think that?Jen: Because every time I go and buy something for someone, I want to buy something that I like, and I would think that it would look good on them or something. But then my friends end up being like, you know? They don't really like the gift so much because it doesn't suit them, or something?Todd: Yeah.Jen: For example, I bought this pair of earrings for this friend, and then I realized that she doesn't really like jewelry and stuff, so she never wore it.Todd: Right, yeah. It's kind of hard to know what they want. Actually, for that reason, I don't like giving gifts at all. I think it's because of my background, like studying economics. It's just, to me, it's inefficient. You're buying something, you don't know if they really want it, and they say, "Oh. It's the thought that counts." But the time that you waste finding the gift and then you give them the gift, and maybe they don't use it. So I'm not a big fan of gift-giving. Even for birthdays.Jen: I actually agree with you. And for me, if it was my birthday, I would rather have someone make a card for me. It would have more value than someone buying gifts for me anyway, you know?Todd: Yeah. I think, like in Asia, it's more common, which I like. And that's kind of the gift you give to somebody when you travel. So if I travel somewhere, I'll pick something up for my mom, from a country I went to. Or somebody ... Let's say they went to Korea or China during their break, they might bring back some special food to the office, and everybody can have a cracker or a cookie, or something like that. I like that.Jen: I'm from Nepal, and here too. In my country too, they would rather give us like, fruits and like different kind of ... Other sweets and stuff rather than clothes and jewelry, you know?Todd: So true. Yeah, actually another thing I like to do is sometimes buy a really nice gift, and then for one year, and then maybe for the next year or two, don't buy the person a gift. For example, like maybe one year, I bought my landlady, who I'm very close to, I bought her an iPad. I'm like, "She's kind of older, and she never had an iPad." So I bought her an iPad, but then the next year, I didn't buy her something really expensive. I bought her like a box of chocolates or something, you know.Jen: In that case, I think it would create a problem, because once you give someone a really special thing, then the next year, they will expect something more, you know?Todd: Yeah.Jen: So like, it'll be really disappointing if they get something that's not very valuable than it was the year before.Todd: Yeah, it's kind of hard to climb back from that, isn't it?Jen: Yeah. Off an iPad? It would be bad.Todd: Though, she's a really nice woman. She definitely ... I don't think she thinks that way at all. She's actually better at giving me gifts. She's always giving me gifts. So, have you gotten any gifts recently for anybody? Are you already planning to get your gifts for the end of the year?Jen: I actually just presented a pair of shoes for my friend, because it was her birthday. The thing is, we don't really celebrate New Year at this time of year. It's kind of different for us, because we celebrate the Lunar ...Todd: Ah right, which is in April, right?Jen: Yes.Todd: Okay, cool.Jen: So haven't really thought about like Christmas gifts or anything.Todd: So in your country, in Nepal, like when do people give gifts? On what occasions?Jen: During our New Year. We have a lot of festivals, so more than gifts, we just invite people and ... you know? Gather around and eat good food, that's it.Todd: Yeah, that's the best.Jen: Yeah, I believe so too.

Todd: So, Jen, the holiday season is coming up, and many cultures give gifts around the New Year's for different holidays. First of all, do you like to give people gifts?Jen: What kind of a person would I be if I said, "No, I don't like people giving people gifts?" But yeah, I'm not really good at choosing gifts for people though.Todd: Why do you think that?Jen: Because every time I go and buy something for someone, I want to buy something that I like, and I would think that it would look good on them or something. But then my friends end up being like, you know? They don't really like the gift so much because it doesn't suit them, or something?Todd: Yeah.Jen: For example, I bought this pair of earrings for this friend, and then I realized that she doesn't really like jewelry and stuff, so she never wore it.Todd: Right, yeah. It's kind of hard to know what they want. Actually, for that reason, I don't like giving gifts at all. I think it's because of my background, like studying economics. It's just, to me, it's inefficient. You're buying something, you don't know if they really want it, and they say, "Oh. It's the thought that counts." But the time that you waste finding the gift and then you give them the gift, and maybe they don't use it. So I'm not a big fan of gift-giving. Even for birthdays.Jen: I actually agree with you. And for me, if it was my birthday, I would rather have someone make a card for me. It would have more value than someone buying gifts for me anyway, you know?Todd: Yeah. I think, like in Asia, it's more common, which I like. And that's kind of the gift you give to somebody when you travel. So if I travel somewhere, I'll pick something up for my mom, from a country I went to. Or somebody ... Let's say they went to Korea or China during their break, they might bring back some special food to the office, and everybody can have a cracker or a cookie, or something like that. I like that.Jen: I'm from Nepal, and here too. In my country too, they would rather give us like, fruits and like different kind of ... Other sweets and stuff rather than clothes and jewelry, you know?Todd: So true. Yeah, actually another thing I like to do is sometimes buy a really nice gift, and then for one year, and then maybe for the next year or two, don't buy the person a gift. For example, like maybe one year, I bought my landlady, who I'm very close to, I bought her an iPad. I'm like, "She's kind of older, and she never had an iPad." So I bought her an iPad, but then the next year, I didn't buy her something really expensive. I bought her like a box of chocolates or something, you know.Jen: In that case, I think it would create a problem, because once you give someone a really special thing, then the next year, they will expect something more, you know?Todd: Yeah.Jen: So like, it'll be really disappointing if they get something that's not very valuable than it was the year before.Todd: Yeah, it's kind of hard to climb back from that, isn't it?Jen: Yeah. Off an iPad? It would be bad.Todd: Though, she's a really nice woman. She definitely ... I don't think she thinks that way at all. She's actually better at giving me gifts. She's always giving me gifts. So, have you gotten any gifts recently for anybody? Are you already planning to get your gifts for the end of the year?Jen: I actually just presented a pair of shoes for my friend, because it was her birthday. The thing is, we don't really celebrate New Year at this time of year. It's kind of different for us, because we celebrate the Lunar ...Todd: Ah right, which is in April, right?Jen: Yes.Todd: Okay, cool.Jen: So haven't really thought about like Christmas gifts or anything.Todd: So in your country, in Nepal, like when do people give gifts? On what occasions?Jen: During our New Year. We have a lot of festivals, so more than gifts, we just invite people and ... you know? Gather around and eat good food, that's it.Todd: Yeah, that's the best.Jen: Yeah, I believe so too.

Todd: Okay, so I'm here with Jen and we're talking about clothing. Now, Jen, I'm a bit older than you, so I probably don't really care about what I wear so much. I always kind of pay the same price for my clothing. So I'm wondering, what's it like for a younger person? How much are you willing to pay? What is your price range?Jen: It depends upon like what you're buying. For example, if it's a pair of jeans then I would pay around 4,000 yen, that's Japanese yen. $40?Todd: Oh really? That's still relatively cheap. Like some people pay like $100, right? Or $200.Jen: I don't think I would ever pay that much because I'm a student right now,so paying more than that would be something I wouldn't do.Todd: Well what about in your home country of Nepal? How much would people pay for pants there?Jen: In Nepal, like compared to Japan, it's really cheap there. You can actually get a really decent pant in 1,500 yen.Todd: That's like $15.Jen: Yes.Todd: Around. Oh that's good. What's the cheapest you would pay? I mean, I guess you could get stuff for free, but what's the lowest you pay for clothes? Or for pants? For pants?Jen: Okay, so sometimes when there's a sale and especially if there's shorts then you can just get it for like 500 yen.Todd: Oh wow. Five bucks.Jen: Like five bucks, yeah.Todd: That's good. Now what about shoes? Do you have a lot of shoes?Jen: Yes I do.Todd: Okay, for some people like shoes they spend a lot of money on shoes. I have a rule, unless it's dress shoes for work, I don't like to spend anything over $100. If it's athletic shoes, like sneakers, never more than $50. Ever.Jen: Okay.Todd: Like how much do you on average pay for shoes?Jen: I think it's different for girls, because our shoes range from $10 to, you know, a lot of money.Todd: What's the most you've ever paid for a pair of shoes?Jen: $100.Todd: Oh really? That's not too bad.Jen: Yeah, it's not bad at all.Todd: Yeah, no, that's good. Kind of good range. How about the cheapest? Five bucks?Jen: Not five bucks, maybe 10 bucks, yeah.Todd: 10 bucks, yeah. All right. I don't even know if I could find shoes for five dollars. They'd fall apart, right?Jen: You can, though.Todd: Oh yeah?Jen: Yeah. On sale you can even get it in like three bucks.Todd: Okay. That brings up a good question because we're talking about shoes. How important is fashion for you? Are you willing to wear uncomfortable clothing to look good?Jen: Not always, because I really like comfort. I would rather wear pajamas and go out than, like you know, wear something really uncomfortable. But it depends, like if you're going to a party then you would obviously want to look good and wouldn't really care about comfort much. But in a daily basis, I would go for comfort always.Todd: Okay. Nice. How about for example, jewelry? Do you like to wear necklaces, earrings, rings, things like that?Jen: No, I'm not much of an accessories person.Todd: Okay. Now in your home country, Nepal, is it common for people to wear a lot of jewelry?Jen: Yes, they do.Todd: Oh yeah? Oh, okay. What do people like to wear?Jen: Everyone prefers gold I guess, because it's like people think that if you wear gold then you are rich. And yeah, gold, silver, and some wear diamonds.Todd: Okay, nice. Nice. I don't have any jewelry, I don't think. Oh wow, I didn't even realize that. I don't have one piece of jewelry.Jen: Really?Todd: Yeah, I have no rings. No necklaces. I have a broken watch. But yeah.Jen: Don't you ever feel like buying one though? Don't you ever follow a trend and thought about piercing your ears or something?Todd: That would be interesting, piercing my ears. You know, when I was your age, which was about over 20 years ago, it was just starting to happen that boys or men would pierce their ears. But it was a bit controversial, it wasn't like it's common now. So yeah.Jen: What about necklaces?Todd: Yeah, I used to have a necklace, yeah. And I just stopped wearing them, it's just not a thing. Yeah. How about you? Would you like to have piercings? Like do you have, you have earrings, right?Jen: Yes, I do, but I rarely use them because at some point it's just hurts and you just feel like you don't really need it, so yeah.Todd: What about in your country, do people have piercings in different places like eyelids or lips or ... ? Like a nose ring?Jen: Yeah, they have nose ring and then they also pierce their ears, like in so many different places. But I've never really seen anyone really piercing their eyelids or stuff. I would want to pierce my-Todd: Belly button? The belly button?Jen: Yes.Todd: Oh my gosh, that looks like it would hurt.Jen: I know-Todd: So much.Jen: -but I really want to do it.Todd: Really? All right, well, just be careful.Jen: Okay, I will

Todd: Okay, so I'm here with Jen and we're talking about clothing. Now, Jen, I'm a bit older than you, so I probably don't really care about what I wear so much. I always kind of pay the same price for my clothing. So I'm wondering, what's it like for a younger person? How much are you willing to pay? What is your price range?Jen: It depends upon like what you're buying. For example, if it's a pair of jeans then I would pay around 4,000 yen, that's Japanese yen. $40?Todd: Oh really? That's still relatively cheap. Like some people pay like $100, right? Or $200.Jen: I don't think I would ever pay that much because I'm a student right now,so paying more than that would be something I wouldn't do.Todd: Well what about in your home country of Nepal? How much would people pay for pants there?Jen: In Nepal, like compared to Japan, it's really cheap there. You can actually get a really decent pant in 1,500 yen.Todd: That's like $15.Jen: Yes.Todd: Around. Oh that's good. What's the cheapest you would pay? I mean, I guess you could get stuff for free, but what's the lowest you pay for clothes? Or for pants? For pants?Jen: Okay, so sometimes when there's a sale and especially if there's shorts then you can just get it for like 500 yen.Todd: Oh wow. Five bucks.Jen: Like five bucks, yeah.Todd: That's good. Now what about shoes? Do you have a lot of shoes?Jen: Yes I do.Todd: Okay, for some people like shoes they spend a lot of money on shoes. I have a rule, unless it's dress shoes for work, I don't like to spend anything over $100. If it's athletic shoes, like sneakers, never more than $50. Ever.Jen: Okay.Todd: Like how much do you on average pay for shoes?Jen: I think it's different for girls, because our shoes range from $10 to, you know, a lot of money.Todd: What's the most you've ever paid for a pair of shoes?Jen: $100.Todd: Oh really? That's not too bad.Jen: Yeah, it's not bad at all.Todd: Yeah, no, that's good. Kind of good range. How about the cheapest? Five bucks?Jen: Not five bucks, maybe 10 bucks, yeah.Todd: 10 bucks, yeah. All right. I don't even know if I could find shoes for five dollars. They'd fall apart, right?Jen: You can, though.Todd: Oh yeah?Jen: Yeah. On sale you can even get it in like three bucks.Todd: Okay. That brings up a good question because we're talking about shoes. How important is fashion for you? Are you willing to wear uncomfortable clothing to look good?Jen: Not always, because I really like comfort. I would rather wear pajamas and go out than, like you know, wear something really uncomfortable. But it depends, like if you're going to a party then you would obviously want to look good and wouldn't really care about comfort much. But in a daily basis, I would go for comfort always.Todd: Okay. Nice. How about for example, jewelry? Do you like to wear necklaces, earrings, rings, things like that?Jen: No, I'm not much of an accessories person.Todd: Okay. Now in your home country, Nepal, is it common for people to wear a lot of jewelry?Jen: Yes, they do.Todd: Oh yeah? Oh, okay. What do people like to wear?Jen: Everyone prefers gold I guess, because it's like people think that if you wear gold then you are rich. And yeah, gold, silver, and some wear diamonds.Todd: Okay, nice. Nice. I don't have any jewelry, I don't think. Oh wow, I didn't even realize that. I don't have one piece of jewelry.Jen: Really?Todd: Yeah, I have no rings. No necklaces. I have a broken watch. But yeah.Jen: Don't you ever feel like buying one though? Don't you ever follow a trend and thought about piercing your ears or something?Todd: That would be interesting, piercing my ears. You know, when I was your age, which was about over 20 years ago, it was just starting to happen that boys or men would pierce their ears. But it was a bit controversial, it wasn't like it's common now. So yeah.Jen: What about necklaces?Todd: Yeah, I used to have a necklace, yeah. And I just stopped wearing them, it's just not a thing. Yeah. How about you? Would you like to have piercings? Like do you have, you have earrings, right?Jen: Yes, I do, but I rarely use them because at some point it's just hurts and you just feel like you don't really need it, so yeah.Todd: What about in your country, do people have piercings in different places like eyelids or lips or ... ? Like a nose ring?Jen: Yeah, they have nose ring and then they also pierce their ears, like in so many different places. But I've never really seen anyone really piercing their eyelids or stuff. I would want to pierce my-Todd: Belly button? The belly button?Jen: Yes.Todd: Oh my gosh, that looks like it would hurt.Jen: I know-Todd: So much.Jen: -but I really want to do it.Todd: Really? All right, well, just be careful.Jen: Okay, I will

Todd: Hey Jenn, how are you today?Jen: Hi Todd, I'm fine thank you. How are you?Todd: I am doing pretty good. It's kind of getting colder, so I like that, I don't like super hot weather.Jen: Really, it's kind of opposite for me because I really hate that it's getting colder day by day.Todd: Oh you don't like the cooler weather?Jen: No, my fingers start swelling and it's really tough because you cannot really go outside. You just want to stay in your bed all day, you become very unproductive I guess.Todd: Yeah, I guess I can kind of ... Yeah, I know what you mean by that. But, at least in the winter, at least in the fall you can wear warmer clothes so I enjoy that. Although I don't like having to do so much laundry because you wear so many more clothes. In summer, it's just so easy to do your laundry I think.Jen: Yeah, you're talking about warmer clothes. But the thing is, if it was summer you wouldn't really feel like wearing any warm clothes at all because that would be unnecessary. That's why I would rather go for summer than winter.Todd: Well I know, but what I'm saying is that in the summer you don't have to wear so many clothes. You just have a tee-shirt, shorts, that's about it, pants.Jen: Yeah, and your laundry problem would also not exist.Todd: Exactly. Although, I don't have that many clothes anyway. I have the same three pairs of pants that I wear, so that's the benefit of being much older. How about you, do you have lots of clothes?Jen: Yeah, but I think even if I was older I would still have a lot of clothes. Maybe it has to do with me always shopping all the time.Todd: Actually, what do you do with your clothes for the season? Do you pack away your clothes for the season? Do you pack away your winter clothes or your summer clothes?Jen: Yes, actually during winter I pack all my summer clothes and tuck it away somewhere. And during summer, I do the opposite yeah.Todd: Yeah, I now am regretting it so much because in the summer it was so hot this summer and I had these big sweatpants and sweaters and they were taking up space in my closet and I just threw them away. And I knew winter was coming and I would regret it, and now I regret it because I have to go buy all new sweatshirts.Jen: Why would you do that?Todd: I just hate clutter and yeah, it was really short-sighted wasn't it?Jen: Yeah, it was. I'm so sorry, but yeah I'm being blunt but you should have just packed it and put it somewhere you couldn't see so it didn't bother you that much.Todd: I know. About clothing, how often do you keep clothes? So, you're young but you've reached, you're not going to grow too much anymore, right? You can keep your clothes a long time. Unlike me, unless I get fatter, I'm not going to grow any taller because I'm so much older. I keep my clothes sometimes for like ten years.Jen: Ten years?Todd: Yeah. What about your parents? I bet your dad has shirts and pants that he's had for ten years.Jen: Yeah, that's true actually my dad does use old clothes. But sometimes I also use his clothes because I think it's kind of cool.Todd: It is cool.Jen: It's like recycling.Todd: That's sweet, like so what is a piece of clothing that your dad has that you wear sometimes?Jen: Actually the jacket that I was wearing yesterday, I got it from my dad and I wear it so much because I love it.Todd: But so , it's a woman's jacket?Jen: No, it's a guy's jacket but I wear it.Todd: Oh really, it was his jacket?Jen: Yes.Todd: Oh really? Okay, that is cool.Jen: And I miss him a lot so that just reminds me of him and that's why I like to wear it a lot.Todd: That's really nice. How about your mom, do you share clothes with your mother?Jen: I'm very thin and she's not so thin, so we cannot share the same clothes.Todd: Yeah. My stepfather and I used to always be the same size, and now I'm a little bit bigger than him. And he says that his pants are only 34 inches, which is quite small in America, and I'm like there's no way. It looks like we're the same size, but we're not I guess.Jen: I mean I could wear my moms clothes, like I did my dad's, because, but then you cannot really do that because if you wear your mom's clothes it will just look like you borrowed clothes from someone. But if you wear your dad's clothes it will look cooler I guess.Todd: Right, yeah. I know what you mean. That's cool, how about your friends, do you share clothes with your friends?Jen: No, not with my friends but with my cousins, sisters, yeah.Todd: Oh really, oh nice.

Todd: Hey Jenn, how are you today?Jen: Hi Todd, I'm fine thank you. How are you?Todd: I am doing pretty good. It's kind of getting colder, so I like that, I don't like super hot weather.Jen: Really, it's kind of opposite for me because I really hate that it's getting colder day by day.Todd: Oh you don't like the cooler weather?Jen: No, my fingers start swelling and it's really tough because you cannot really go outside. You just want to stay in your bed all day, you become very unproductive I guess.Todd: Yeah, I guess I can kind of ... Yeah, I know what you mean by that. But, at least in the winter, at least in the fall you can wear warmer clothes so I enjoy that. Although I don't like having to do so much laundry because you wear so many more clothes. In summer, it's just so easy to do your laundry I think.Jen: Yeah, you're talking about warmer clothes. But the thing is, if it was summer you wouldn't really feel like wearing any warm clothes at all because that would be unnecessary. That's why I would rather go for summer than winter.Todd: Well I know, but what I'm saying is that in the summer you don't have to wear so many clothes. You just have a tee-shirt, shorts, that's about it, pants.Jen: Yeah, and your laundry problem would also not exist.Todd: Exactly. Although, I don't have that many clothes anyway. I have the same three pairs of pants that I wear, so that's the benefit of being much older. How about you, do you have lots of clothes?Jen: Yeah, but I think even if I was older I would still have a lot of clothes. Maybe it has to do with me always shopping all the time.Todd: Actually, what do you do with your clothes for the season? Do you pack away your clothes for the season? Do you pack away your winter clothes or your summer clothes?Jen: Yes, actually during winter I pack all my summer clothes and tuck it away somewhere. And during summer, I do the opposite yeah.Todd: Yeah, I now am regretting it so much because in the summer it was so hot this summer and I had these big sweatpants and sweaters and they were taking up space in my closet and I just threw them away. And I knew winter was coming and I would regret it, and now I regret it because I have to go buy all new sweatshirts.Jen: Why would you do that?Todd: I just hate clutter and yeah, it was really short-sighted wasn't it?Jen: Yeah, it was. I'm so sorry, but yeah I'm being blunt but you should have just packed it and put it somewhere you couldn't see so it didn't bother you that much.Todd: I know. About clothing, how often do you keep clothes? So, you're young but you've reached, you're not going to grow too much anymore, right? You can keep your clothes a long time. Unlike me, unless I get fatter, I'm not going to grow any taller because I'm so much older. I keep my clothes sometimes for like ten years.Jen: Ten years?Todd: Yeah. What about your parents? I bet your dad has shirts and pants that he's had for ten years.Jen: Yeah, that's true actually my dad does use old clothes. But sometimes I also use his clothes because I think it's kind of cool.Todd: It is cool.Jen: It's like recycling.Todd: That's sweet, like so what is a piece of clothing that your dad has that you wear sometimes?Jen: Actually the jacket that I was wearing yesterday, I got it from my dad and I wear it so much because I love it.Todd: But so , it's a woman's jacket?Jen: No, it's a guy's jacket but I wear it.Todd: Oh really, it was his jacket?Jen: Yes.Todd: Oh really? Okay, that is cool.Jen: And I miss him a lot so that just reminds me of him and that's why I like to wear it a lot.Todd: That's really nice. How about your mom, do you share clothes with your mother?Jen: I'm very thin and she's not so thin, so we cannot share the same clothes.Todd: Yeah. My stepfather and I used to always be the same size, and now I'm a little bit bigger than him. And he says that his pants are only 34 inches, which is quite small in America, and I'm like there's no way. It looks like we're the same size, but we're not I guess.Jen: I mean I could wear my moms clothes, like I did my dad's, because, but then you cannot really do that because if you wear your mom's clothes it will just look like you borrowed clothes from someone. But if you wear your dad's clothes it will look cooler I guess.Todd: Right, yeah. I know what you mean. That's cool, how about your friends, do you share clothes with your friends?Jen: No, not with my friends but with my cousins, sisters, yeah.Todd: Oh really, oh nice.

Welcome to the Recruitment Hackers podcast. A show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talk push the leading recruitment automation platform.Max: All right. Hello everybody. Welcome back to the recruitment hackers podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster and today. On the show. I've got Jen Thornton, CEO of Three O Four coaching. Welcome to the show, Jen. Jen: Hi and thanks for having me.Max: Pleasure to have you. So Jen is someone who comes from the high volume recruitment world of retail. And worked at American Eagle for over 20 years if your bio is correct. Jen:  Yes, yes, I did. Max: Which must've been quite the journey. So, well, we'd love to hear a little bit about that, where you come from. And then of course if you could introduce us to three or four coaching, your current business.Jen:  So sure. So my early career was in retail and I've always loved the retail industry, you know, even as a young girl fashion and trend, like all of that was just exciting and fun. I always thought it was interesting. And I come from a long lineage of shoppers, so I wanted to be in retail. And so that's what I did.And I spent the first half of my career in the operations side of it. And the second half in HR. And so my approach to HR was always very different because I had the operations mindset, you know, waking up to your KPIs every morning, you know, making quick decisions, prioritizing 100 number one priorities, you know, all that stuff you do on the operation side of retail.So when I went into HR I actually started in talent acquisition, and that was my first HR gig and it was a ton of fun. And we did the store recruitment for American Eagle and then things progressed. And when I left A. E. I was the head of international HR. And then, you know, I came to that point in my career where I was ready for something new and something different.And I didn't really see myself ever working for another retailer. I mean, I'd worked for one of the best in the world and I, you know, worked for them when they had 160 stores. And then, you know, when they were in 27 countries, I needed to do something fresh and new. And so I started 3 or 4 coaching.And what the team does today is we help organizations think about their talent strategy. And how does that match up to their business strategy? Because we all have business plans, but not everyone has a talent plan that matches it. And so we work with organizations to look at their hiring practices, their onboarding practices, how do we educate and grow our teams? And we do executive coaching. So it's all about delivering on the talent. Max: Wonderful, great. I'm sure the people at American Eagle appreciate the fact that you didn't go to the competition or something like that. And that you came to that stage of your life where it was about giving back to as many people as possible, you know, as a coach, rather than as a soldier. And thinking about this journey  from operations to HR and through talent acquisition it sounds like you were focused on getting the stores the right talent. And I imagine the key person you want to get rights is the store manager, and everything else kind of follows from that, right? Is that the way you organize your TA strategy on the retail side? Jen: Yeah, we did look at the key positions and, you know, those positions that we're making the bulk of the decisions. In a store environment that store manager or general manager is making the bulk of the decisions.And so, you know, I think that it's all about getting the right store manager, but we also thought a lot about the right store manager for the right time. And, you know, oftentimes a store may be in high growth, or it may be in a leverage mine, you know, they are in a solid market, but we want to leverage what we have.You know, there may be a time where there's a big remodel, you know, there's just always different things going on. And so we not only focused on the right store manager, but really the right store manager for that time, for that generation of that store, to ensure that they could deliver on the expectations.Max: So you were looking at the right generation for that specific location? Not at the brand level, we're hiring the same store manager, regardless, you know, you don't have like one global model. I mean, I'm sure you have a little bit of both, but I wouldn't have thought that a big brand would be able to localize it's hiring for the maturity level of a single location. Jen: Yeah. We worked really closely with the leadership for those markets. And we were involved in the succession planning. We were involved in, you know, where that business was going. And you can look at talent acquisition in two ways. You can look at it the way where you just produce candidates and you just push them out, or you can become a trusted advisor. And that's what our goal was, to be a trusted advisor. And to really understand the unique business of every market and to help those leaders make great hiring decisions so that we could leverage the talent. And, you know, my team back then every single recruiter on that team had been a district manager or a store manager. So they really understood the business. And I think that was one of our biggest success markers was that we had been there. We did that. We understood the business. You know, we could look at a report and know where there were opportunities from a KPI standpoint and help people make really great decisions.Max: So for example, to illustrate that and you'd have one, one candidate, that'd be a little bit more experienced on the management side. One that would have a sensibility around. Maybe design and you know, merchandise. I don't know. I have zero experience. Yeah. Could you illustrate that with maybe some profiles or personas? Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So if, you know, if we were looking at, say a flagship store in New York city, and it's a new store, it hasn't even opened yet. So then we would be looking for general managers with experience in flagship but also experience in opening large volume stores. Because, you know, there's a lot, you learn when you open a store you know, an iconic New York city flagship store. And so we would look for people that had that experience.And then we would blend that maybe with internal candidates, maybe an internal candidate that didn't necessarily have that experience in a flagship New York store, but maybe they really understood our brand. And so not only would we want to say, okay, here's what the GM needs. So look like here's maybe what the system needs to look like. And we would take a really hard look at how to blend experience to make sure that all of our decisions came together and could execute, you know, the plan.Max:  Makes sense. And how big of a team for how many stores? Give us an idea of what the ratio is because  I do a bit of work in retail and for many retailers, the whole concept of having a centralized recruitment team is still new, foreign and political.  Especially with organizations that have a franchisee model. They haven't necessarily figured out how to do it. And then they're basically let every location owner run the show. And so I'm always curious to ask about the business models that worked. Jen: So, you know, when we looked at brands, the brand that we owned and operated, so there's American Eagle, Aerie, other brands over the years. And so if we owned and operated it, we were highly involved and we as TA, we worked strategically with the leaders of those markets. And so typically, there were five people on the team and we supported all of US in Canada. Those were owned and operated. And so gosh, at any given time around a thousand stores.So you know, American Eagle was fantastic. We had a very low turnover for retail. And so people may be thinking, how did five people support a thousand stores? But the type of decisions that we help people make, you know, when you make good hiring decisions on the front end, it improves your turnover. It helps everything on the backend. And so I really believe that a lot of the work we did on the front end of making really good hiring decisions helped us with the retention. It was a key factor in keeping those numbers.Max:  A thousand stores, typically a store would have between 20 head count-ish or more. So it would have been impossible for a team of five to manage all these openings. And that's why the focus was on the store managers and their assistants. And from there, I guess there is a manual, we give her the manual to the store manager and say, you know, please apply that to your local hiring.Jen:  Yeah. And as a TA team, we were also responsible for education. And so we produced, you know, education material and did workshops to help individuals understand good interviewing practices and how to make great hiring decisions. And so, you know, I think sometimes, recruiters think, Oh, well, my job is just to give candidates out, but you're really also the face of the brand or the person that candidate meets the first time.And so, yeah. If you aren't representing the brand, in a way that shows, this is how we treat our customers. This is how we treat our peers. Like all of that's really important. And so we were educating people from the minute we got on the phone with them. This is our customer service model.We care about you, we care about your future. And I mean, we did LinkedIn courses. We did all kinds of things to help educate the teams on making really great decisions and for them to, you know, be able to find their own candidates too. Cause we couldn't do a hundred percent of that. It had to definitely be a team sport when it came to recruitment for that many stores.Max: The education of hiring managers is never ending pursuit because when you're first point in a position of power where you can decide who to hire. That power can easily get to your head. I think that, you know, too many managers who immediately default to, I'm going to grill this person and forget that most of the employer branding happens during the first interview. I don't think it happens on a website, on a Facebook page.Jen:  No, I think you are so right on that. Max: Yep. So like what would be some tips for driving employer branding for hiring managers? Personally, I'm rewriting our manual right now, so that we explicitly say these are the people we don't want to hire. That would be like a hard message to deliver for managers, but because it's hard, it's worthwhile.Jen: Yeah, absolutely. You know, when you think about employer branding, there's some, I mean, you could go a million different ways. And there's, you know, all of the social media and all the videos and all this stuff you're supposed to do, but at the end of the day, it's really about the relationship you create with the candidates that you're going to hire and the candidates you're not going to hire.And. You have to be organized. You have to communicate, you have to be respectful to these individuals. If they're not going to go to the next phase, you have to tell them. And I think what we often heard from candidates back then was you're one of the few teams who told me where I was in the process, or thank you for letting me know I didn't get the job and not just ghosting me. And. You know right now I know a lot of retailers that are looking for jobs and a lot of incredibly talented people and time and time again, when I talk to them, they're frustrated because of the lack of communication from a recruiter and, you know, that speaks of the brand. It's how you're treating your external customer because every candidate really is a customer in retail. They could be in your store shopping at any moment. And so, you know how we treat our candidates, says everything about the organization. Max: Yeah. And if you scare a few candidates away, by describing an idyllic version of who you want to hire that does not represent who they are, even better. Like it wasn't for me. I mean, you just have, you need that brutal honesty. And I think that's that's hard for most people to do, you know, it's not a natural behavior. Cause we all want to, we all want to be as attractive as possible, we forget that a true brand is differentiated. Jen: Yeah. And honesty is a gift. And though sometimes it may not feel like a gift, you know, always put yourself in that person's shoes. Would you want to know the truth about a job if you're a match or not? Would you want to know the truth about, Hey here's, you know, feedback. Or, you know, here's a job that I know of that I think you're going to be a good fit for.And I would love to introduce you to the recruiter, you know, be a good citizen and, you know, go out there and treat candidates with ultimate respect and honesty, just like you would want to be treated. And you never know where those relationships are going to go. One of my closest friends that I've known for 15 years, I met through a cold call recruitment call.She was a recruiter for a competitor. She called and said, Hey, do you want to interview? And I'm like, Nope, I'm super happy here. And she stayed in contact with me. She sent me a Christmas card every year. And then when I became a recruiter, I was like, I'd never done the job. And I was like, well, I'm going to call the best recruiter I know. And so I called her and we've been friends for gosh, 13, 15 years since then. And it's nuts. I mean, we are super close and it was from a recruitment call and she treated me with respect and I treated her with respect and now we have a great friendship. Max: Did you ever do business with her? Jen: I actually started a retail networking group with her and retail networking solutions. And we hold events through the US and Canada. And we've gosh, we've been doing events for gosh, 10 years and we have a huge LinkedIn group with over 16,000 people in it. And we started that with a logo and, you know, that's it. And it's just a group that we manage and we have a good time doing, cause we just, we love the industry, but yeah, we did that together.Max:  What's the group called on LinkedIn? Jen: Retail Networking Solutions. Max:  Okay, we'll go check it out. Jen: Awesome. Max: Well, the events business probably took a small hit in 2020. How was 2020 for you as a trainer, coach, events organizer? Were you able to come out of it without  too much hurt?Jen:  We were so fortunate and we have so many great clients and every one of our clients were impacted in a different way. Some got busier, some got slower. I mean, everyone had their own unique impact based on their business. And we were actually pretty busy this year. And I think that with the business challenges, people saw the opportunity to provide additional education and training.You know, it was a tough year to be a leader. And great organizations recognize that and brought support in through coaching or through workshops. And we've always had a virtual, a primary lead virtual model at three O four. All of our leadership academies were all developed to be taught virtually. So we really didn't have to adapt much because it had always been. And we were very grateful that we were primarily a virtual business, for sure. I would say that definitely helped. Max: And the difference between doing something in person and virtually when you're in a training environment, could you tell us how you have to adapt the content or the audience when moving from the real world to the virtual? Jen: So I think one of the key things you have to recognize is the adult learner mind and take advantage of how the adult mind works. And it actually, in some ways works really well virtually. Because if you put an adult in a training room for three days straight, they're going to remember very little of what you taught them.But if you give them short one hour and two hour increments, and then you allow them to go use that information and then come back and learn more, use that information, come back and learn more. You're actually going to create more retention in the education. So all of our training programs are overall, you know, seven, six months, but it's strip content. And so you're learning stuff consistently, but then applying it. And so the learning actually sticks. And so if you're training virtually never do it more than, you know, 60 minutes is a good place, but never more than two hours at a time. And then allow that adult learner to go and do something with the material.Don't just train them for something and go, okay, well, I taught you something today. Talk to them about how they can apply it immediately because that's when retention of that information starts to stick. And that's where you start to see real behavior changes. Max:  Okay, that's a good lesson for us. We just launched our own Academy in my company to teach recruiters how to use social media advertising to build their talent pool. We try to keep it very practical as the best part of the training, for sure. To give some hands-on training. And you said that your customers were reaching out for help for their managers, for their executives, in a year that's been transformative. Where you're dealing with transformation on the talent acquisition front in particular?Jen: So one of the pieces of the business that we have, one of our arms is a pre employment assessment. OAD, organization analysis and design. And so we saw heightened interest in that tool. You know, when you think about making hiring decisions, you can interview people for experience, you know, you can give them some situations, see how they would, handle it or say they'll handle it. But what you can't always interview for are the traits for a job. You know, whether that be the level of assertiveness, or level of detail, or decision style. And so. You know, the way jobs were being managed were different this year. And we had to evaluate what traits matched a job and, you know, along with skills and experience.And so I definitely saw a heightened interest in making really good hiring decisions. And then really understanding these employees once you hire them. How do you know how they work and how do you coach them based on who they are? And so our OAD business definitely saw some tickup because people really wanted to make great decisions and then do great things with the team. Once they hired them. Max: We also saw an increase in the use of automated assessment solutions and. That came alongside with an increase in volumes. Now that wasn't the case necessarily. I've spoken to a number of people who said actually volumes were flat or down in some industries in the US, but internationally with the increase in unemployment, there was an increase in the talent pool, and it just became impossible to screen everybody. So assessment platforms gained popularity this year. Jen: Yeah. I've worked with one of my clients and they're a large retailer and of course their call center and distribution center, you know, everyone was doing everything online. So they had to really ramp up those areas of their business and they had to find  speed. They had to cut down on the time in which it took to touch a candidate. And so we did studies on success markers, you know, what are your top? What consistent traits do your top performers have and then looking at candidates and saying, okay, these candidates in that pre employment assessment have those markers. So let's start with those candidates. Let's start with candidates that we can predict have a higher probability of being successful so that they're happier employees. And so we use that to help reduce time with candidates and reduce how many candidates we were touching.Max: Yeah, works and makes sense. And then for the changes that occurred last year, do you believe there's a new normal? Are people going to come back to the office? Or do you think people are going to come back to the office? For most of the customers that you've dealt with? Do you think that some of the change for 2020 is permanent? Jen: I think there's going to be a blended approach and a more flexible approach. And I think that organizations who weren't flexible with work at home realize that people can work from home. And if you hire the right people, they can be trusted to do their job.But I think that, you know, people are valuing their time in a different way. And I think the smart companies are going to be very nimble and take the time to think about how to have a flexible work schedule or half the time in office, half the time from home or any of those types of models. But I think that the good companies are going to learn how to be much more flexible. Max: The younger the talents, the more you think they need coaching and mentoring and the more you need them to be there. And so that's all fun. The main metrics were, which people decide who needs to be in the office or not. Because the younger you are the less data points we have to work with. So we don't know exactly what you're going to be good at. You know, when you start out, is there a way to determine who's going to be a good remote worker from a young age?Jen: So I'm going to flip it on its head a little bit, and I'm going to say the determination is the leader. And, you know, a great leader who understands how to lead virtual teams. You know, it's not going to change anything for them. If they are great communicators and understand how to motivate, excite and lead virtual teams. Then your entire team, no matter where they are in their careers, is more likely going to be successful. And so I think it really depends on the leader's ability to be successful as a virtual leader. And it's interesting, you know, I have never had, I've never worked in office in my entire career.I've never had my entire team. I mean, I've led virtual teams since I was gosh, in my twenties. And so as a district manager, you know, in retail your stores are all over the place. And so it's interesting watching people talk about virtual, cause I'm like, is there another way to manage? That's all I've ever done.Max: Now that you mentioned it. I mean, most of everybody I've worked with in the last 20 years I've been doing the same. Same as you. Jen: Yeah. So it can be done. And it's really about the leader. Cause I've led people that are straight out of college and I've led people that have 30 years of experience virtually and it always boiled down to how good is your leader?Max: All right. But I mean, I did enjoy managing a sales team where everybody was in the same room as me and we had that comradery and all the drinks after work and all that.Well, I'm talking about the leadership hiring. Jen: Yes. Max: I want you to go to a dark place. A bad memory.  A hire that you made where you invested love and trust. And was rewarded with a bitter lesson in life. Can you revisit that moment for the audience and tell us what lesson they should draw from it? Jen: You know, I've got a long list of those. I've been hiring people for a long time, but there's two that I'm thinking of, and now that I think of both of those people, there was a common thread and I think the common thread was, I put blinders on because I saw experience that I was impressed by, and I saw a lot of stories, or I assumed because of, you know, something that was on their resume, you know, automatically made them great if they work for this type of company, and my two toughest hires that I've ever been a part of, that was that's the common denominator.I let kind of that experience and that little rockstar status influence, you know, the substance of who that person really was. And you got to get into the substance of who those people truly are. And now those are my two worst hiring decisions, both come down to that. Max: Okay. And to go dig a little bit deeper into that, they had a deep industry expertise or deep functional expertise that blinded you to some psychometric or personality flaws. Jen: Yeah. They both had experience with really high retailers like really popular, like really nice. And, you know, they were the fancy, shiny toys out there. Right? And I thought, well, gosh, if they work there, surely they're fantastic. And you know, that doesn't always work. And so so yeah, so I've made that mistake. And one was kind of earlier in my career and one was later in my career. So it can happen at any time. Max: Yeah. And of course, when you make it later in your career, you're going to ask all those questions. Like you understand this is different than you have to adapt, but nonetheless, I mean, branding works. And just goes to show how powerful a strong employer brand is because it reflects positively on all the employees becoming much more attractive to hire. But of course, you know, the onus is on the employer as well to exercise that kind of judgment.So, you know, it's definitely a shared mistake. Yeah. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Max: So who should contact you at a three O four coaching? When should they reach out to three O four coaching? And how did they get a hold of you? Jen: So we love to work with organizations who are passionate about creating environments, where individuals can grow their career and, you know, organization to bring in managers and see them as vice-presidents down the road.And that's the kind of companies we'd love to work with. We love to jump in early on the runway and help employers. You know, take this talent and grow it with them long term. And we love working with fast-growing companies. They have unique challenges and those unique challenges are our favorite.And, you know, we do that through, you know, all the talent strategy. You have to think about the strategy of how to get these teams up and going. And so, yeah, so you can reach out to us@threeofourcoaching.com or you can connect with me directly on LinkedIn at Jen Thorton. Max: Great. If you want to make vice-presidents out of your managers, please contact Jen. She's got, she's got the key to their success. Jen: Absolutely. Max: Thanks for joining on the show, Jen, and wish you a brilliant 2021. Jen:  Thank you so much for having me. It was a lot of funMax:  That was Jen Thorton from three O four coaching. She reminded us that when you're in talent acquisition, nothing beats, actual operational experience, and really projecting yourself in the shoes of the operator when recommending a solution. In the case of Jen, that meant thinking about what each individual store would need and what combination of people would work best. I hope you enjoyed the interview. And if you want to hear more, remember to follow the recruitment hackers podcast. And to share it with your friends. Thank you.

Following a difficult, traumatic, or violent incident, there are a lot of challenges to work through. But when planning and thinking through how to handle these situations, we often focus almost wholly on the response and tend to ignore the short and long-term recovery challenges. In this episode of the Managing Uncertainty Podcast, Bryghtpath Principal & CEO Bryan Strawser and Senior Consultant Jennifer Otremba talk through their own experiences in the aftermath of major crisis situations. Topics discussed include grief counseling, post-traumatic stress, managing the press, post-disaster payroll policies, and more. //static.leadpages.net/leadboxes/current/embed.js Episode Transcript Jen: I read this article where there was a grief counselor that was interviewed and taking specifically around the aftermath of a situation and how its managed and how its handled. This grief counselor actually would get called onsite for various different high-level incidents, much like the shooting in Florida, 9-11, things like that. The grief counselor would come onsite and they would help the people involved through the situation. We saw that at our previous employer where if there was a big incident that happened we would have counselors that were onsite. Bryan: It was part of our SOP really. Jen: Absolutely, and help out. I just thought this would be a great topic to talk about to kind of educate those around what it's like to go through an aftermath. Bryan and I have both gone through many situations- Bryan: Numerous. Jen: Where we dealt with an aftermath of a traumatic incident so we thought it would be a good idea to talk about what that looks like. Bryan: For me it always ... This kind of is just ... This issue gets overlooked a lot, but because of what I've learned through my experience and our experiences together is that this always seems to be part of the right of boom process. When I talk about left of boom, right of boom, you've got the bad thing that happened, the boom, and there's what you can do before that, the preparation and the training and the exercises and whatever, but then the bad thing happens, you respond to it and then part of your long-term recovery, which what we're talking about here falls right on getting out of that immediate response stage, is how do you deal with the aftermath of the situation in terms of taking care of the team, taking care of the survivors or the victims and their families and the organization, how do you make sure that people are okay through this. Jen: Right, and like you said, this should actually be part of your crisis planning. Bryan: It should be. Jen: It should be part of the plan. Bryan: It needs to be one of the first things that you do once you've gotten to that immediate response and we're sure that people are safe and the immediate danger has passed, is how do you start to help people with the immediate and long-term aftermath of the situation that has impacted them. Jen: Yeah, and understanding some of the things you can expect to see. Some individuals may need to take some time off. They might need to take some time away from where it happened before they can ... Yeah. Bryan: If you're a multi-facility company they may want to work at a different facility moving forward. Jen: Yeah. It might be temporary or that might be permanent, but you need to take that in consideration and understand that that might be part of your planning process. Bryan: You'll find ... And this is definitely not ... This is something that you need to involve a professional organization, outside organization, to do and there's a number of companies that provide this, it's really kind of in the medical field. Whether you call it grief counseling or you call it just kind of the post-traumatic incident counseling, there's a lot of terminology to be used. But what you often see is these services will come in and they will do a combination of kind of group conversation, of working through what has happened, and some individual conversation. It's not ... I wouldn't characterize this as you're hiring counselors for everyone, but you are bringing somebody in that's an expert in dealing with these situations and helping your team talk through that. And then you may have folks, as Jen says, may need some time off and in an ethical organization you're going to find a way to accommodate that, regardless of what your policy is. Say that you're going to help them through the situation, and you may have folks that will need, through your medical coverage, long-term psychological, psychiatric counseling in order to deal with the aftermath of the situation. Jen: Right. I think one of the big things is you need to understand that there's a short-term and a long-term recovery process. Bryan: Right. Jen: There's what happens in the aftermath as far as the immediate aftermath, within days or weeks of something happening, but then understanding what that looks like long-term for people because everyone handles it differently. Bryan: I know one thing to consider, whatever the incident is that causes this workplace trauma, this traumatic incident that occurred. It can be a shooting situation, it could be an industrial accident, it could be a natural disaster, a tornado or whatever. What often I have done in my experience is we have made sure that folks are safe and we realize that we've had this horrible thing has happened, whatever it is. It's going to bring media attention, it's likely going to involve law enforcement and the emergency services. We would often think about how can we get the team out of that situation and somewhere safe. I'm often reminded of an issue we dealt with in my experience in 2010 where I had an individual come into a location and shoot and kill an employee and then took his own life. There's the immediate response, which is there's as run-hide-fight process and even before that was popular, everybody got out of the building. The first thing that the local leadership did for my employer at the time was: Okay, I'm going to account for everybody. I've got a competitor next door, we're going in there, they've offered us a conference room. We're going to get in there. We're going to sit down. We're going to get our families in here. We're going to make the call to the outside counselors to come help us out. We're going to be over here shielded from the media and all of the crazy stuff that comes in. I thought that was extremely astute work by the young leader that was there that day. Did everything right, but that's what we had taught them how to do. Jen: Yeah. I've experienced, aside from some of the ones that Bryan and I have experienced together, definitely experienced a lot of these types of scenarios, particularly at the beginning of the war when I was responding to mass casualty events. Some of the things that we used to do is, immediately following a mass casualty event we would get everyone together and talk about it and make sure everyone was doing okay. Bryan: That's right. Jen: But one thing we don't always do great on is the long-term and how that can affect people long-term. There's no way of knowing how it's going to affect any one person, but there is definitely going to be some kind of effect one way or another, whether it's conscious or subconscious. With good leaders, it's a matter of continuing to check in with your people, make sure they're doing okay and they have the resources that they need. Bryan: When I was a young leader, I was in New England for 9-11 and I had locations that were in southwestern Connecticut near New York City and that's where I was, I was in the Hartford area on the morning of 9-11 when all of those events transpired. I remember, my counterpart and I went back the next day and toured all of our Connecticut stores, not because we really cared about what was going on in terms of the business, but we were worried about the team. Folks there knew people who worked at the World Trade Center, had family members. They had this deep connection to the events in New York City in particular and all we really did was go from location to location and just talk with everybody, like: Is everybody okay? How are you doing? Is there anything we can do? Years later, this still comes up when I talk to people from Connecticut that they had my counterpart and I kind of making this circuit throughout the area to make sure that folks were okay. That was a conversation that we continued as leaders for years, all tied back to that traumatic incident that many of us experienced on the morning of 9-11. Jen: Yeah. You find when you go through something as traumatic as that, people really come together and create bonds that never go away, which is great because with those bonds, years down the road ... I know I can call some of my buddies that I was involved in some of those mass casualty incidents with, that I can call them any time and we can talk through things. There's kind of an untold bond between you because you were together. Those relationships are excellent to keep to continue to help each other through things like this, even down the road. That's a good way to talk about through getting your employees and that through those types of situations, but the one thing we don't always talk about is leaders. Bryan: We are not immune from this. Jen: Not immune to it at all. Leaders also experience the same levels of stress as anyone else does, plus they have the responsibility to take care of all of these people. Bryan: I think when we're talking about leaders, it's not just leaders at the site because I think of them as being directly impacted, but I've worked in crisis management for almost 20 years and it doesn't go away. Even if you're leading at a enterprise level and you're thousands of miles away from the incident that you're managing, it's that you still have impact from that, particularly if it's ... For me if it's one of two things: It's that sharp, traumatic incident, particularly if lives were lost, but it's also the ... Okay, we've had this major incident and we've dodged the ... We've not had people seriously injured, we've not lost anyone or a family member, but we have all of this work that has to be done to get the business back up and running and make sure that the team is made as whole as they can through the process because of damage to their community and homes and schools and what have you. Man, that takes a lot out of people and honestly most companies don't really put a lot of resources into crisis management, so it's often one, two, three people that are trying to manage this or with the help of a place like ours. I think it's very challenging and we miss this a lot, as it happens. Jen: And it's a high burnout career. Bryan: Oh, totally, as we know. Jen: Yes. That chronic stress, chronic fatigue takes a toll on you, both mentally and physically, for not just leaders but for everyone, but definitely leaders probably experience it the most because they're also trying to manage people that are experience it. You can see where the domino effect would happen. Bryan: We've talked before about the National Preparedness Leadership program at Harvard. Jen: Yes. Bryan: And their idea of meta-leadership through a crisis situation, the emergency situation. I remember that a big part of what we learned going through that program and a big part of their research is the psychology of being that leader in the critical moment and how do you make the decisions and what have you. But the question that Dr. Lenny Marcus would always ask, when he would get in the room and ... So there you are at Deep Water Horizon and you've got admiral Thad Allen from the Coast Guard is now the incident commander and calling the shots is, when they're in private: How are you doing? How are you feeling about this? I just saw you do X, Y, Z. Why did you make those decisions? It always came back to: How are you feeling? What are you thinking about emotionally as a leader as you're going through that? Those things are hard to manage through. Jen: Yeah. And what do you need? Bryan: What do you need? Jen: Leaders need time off too. Bryan: What do you need as a leader? Jen: Yeah. Bryan: I think back to that situation in 2010 with the ... That was a violent crime with the employee that was killed. That was my first one managing something like that at that scale and even though I was an experienced crisis manager, I had never done that. I remember coming off the first conference call with the team down there that had just gone through this and lost one of their own and we're trying to manage through the details and then calling a peer of mine that used to be in this job and just went: Okay, I have to ... I've got to walk you through what I'm thinking and what I want to do, but can I talk to you about how I feel for a minute because I'm trying to figure out how to process this. Jen: Yeah. Bryan: I think we often don't think about doing that and we don't think about or have somebody that we can do that with, that understands what you're going through. It's not the same as going home and having this conversation with your spouse, unless you're me and we work in the same field. Jen: That's true. Bryan: You can't just go to the random friend and say: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah because they're not in that same ... They've never been in your shoes, they don't really understand that. I think it's important to find people that you can have that conversation with. Jen: Yeah. That's where I go back to some of my old buddies that I used to work with because they've been through stressful situations too, so you really lean on each other when that happens. Bryan: One of the more moving things for me in the last hurricane season that was so big, and this goes back to the National Preparedness Leadership, the NPLI program at Harvard. There was about 800 and some alumni of the program and the faculty would send us updates during major situations because they go out and deploy and they're walking with us. They sent a pretty heartfelt note one day about halfway through Hurricane Maria that said: Here's some things we're seeing and thinking about ... But it ended with: Look, we know what it's like to be at the tip of the spear as leading through these situations and that it's important to have somebody to talk to. If you don't have anybody to talk to, call us. Here's the phone number. Promise not to make you a research subject, but call us or call somebody in the program that you know, or don't know. I think we could all do that for each other. It's important to do that, but I think the bigger challenge is recognizing as a leader that you're not going to be immune to the stress and you're going to need to find ways to deal with this and seek help with this where necessary as it starts to impact you. Jen: I think what's good in this day and age, we have so many tools out there and there's so much more education and knowledge around this than there once was. Things like meditation and yoga that used to get kind of balked at but they're actually now ... My doctor actually recommends meditation now and this is well-studied stuff, but some of the preventative things that you can do. We also know, and there's been a lot of testing around this, that to reduce the effects of stress and fatigue as these things happen are the self-imposed stressors. Drugs, alcohol although you don't want to be a Drunk Driver, exhaustion, tobacco and ... Bryan: Too much coffee. Jen: Hypoglycemia. Exactly. All of these things can really amplify the effects of stress. Staying away from the excessive amounts of caffeine, which is laughable because I don't know any crisis manager ... Bryan: That is not addicted to coffee. Jen: ... That does not drink copious amounts of coffee. Bryan: Totally. Jen: And then often times at the end of the day, enjoying a beer after the effects of things. But keeping in mind that anything in moderation is okay, but once you've gone to the excessive amounts, no good. Exhaustion is huge. Getting enough rest before incidents happen and then also during the incident you have to take a break, you have to take a step away. Bryan: We forget about this because there's usually somebody in charge. There's an incident commander, there's ... You're the city emergency management director, you're the director of crisis management for a company, but that does not mean that you have to be there all the time because it will dull your ability to make decisions and deal with stress. Jen: Right. Exactly. Bryan: You've got to go home and you have to let somebody else run the thing until tomorrow or whenever. Jen: Exactly. Yeah. Tobacco, I mean need I say more? Hypoglycemia. Okay, again, I don't know an emergency manager out there that can't enjoy a good piece of pizza during an incident, even if it means you're shoving food in your mouth in between trying to get stuff done. It's really important that you're taking care of yourself one way or another. Bryan: Right. Jen: It doesn't have to be pizza, but ... Bryan: Our key message is here: As a part of your recovery, short- and long-term recovery following that immediate response is: Determine the need to bring in assistance to help with the team, understand the signs of stress, particularly post-traumatic stress and what that means and can look like. Make it a priority to touch base with the team as a leader and encourage others to do so to really just check in and just ask folks if they're okay, if there's anything they want to talk about or is there anything you can do to help them through that. You'd be surprised sometimes, I think, at the answers again. Jen: Agree. Make sure some of this is a part of your planning process, let's not forget that. Bryan: Right. And get the vendor lined up. Jen: Yes, exactly. Bryan: And then for yourself, you're not immune. We highly encourage you to find a partner in the field, a peer at another company, the person that held your job before you, or call us, we'd be happy to talk. Jen: Absolutely. Bryan: Best of luck.

We don't do politics on our podcast, but given last week's tragedy in Florida, we thought it would be worthwhile to talk about school threat management. In particular, the threat management environment in a K-12 school is quite different than what we typically encounter in a business or university environment. In this episode of the Managing Uncertainty Podcast, Bryghtpath Principal & CEO Bryan Strawser and Senior Consultant Jennifer Otremba talk through their recommendations on the threat management processes and challenges in a K-12 educational environment. Both Bryan and Jen are members of the Association of Threat Assessment Professionals and have extensive experience in threat management and assessment. Topics discussed include risk criteria, mitigation planning, threat management teams, involvement from law enforcement, and other challenges. //static.leadpages.net/leadboxes/current/embed.js Episode Transcript Bryan:              We don't do politics on this podcast. Jen:                  No. It's not really the right place. Bryan:              Not the right place for it. This is our professional lives, and our personal, political affiliations really have nothing to do with what we talk about here. We're recording this the week after the shooting in Florida that has the country's attention right now, and we wanted to talk about how this relates to our area of expertise when it comes to school threat management. As we look at the facts of this situation, and we're going to try to do this in a non-blameful way, because I don't think we know enough yet to know who might be at fault, or are there agencies that are at fault? I'm not sure that that really matters in terms of blame. But we do know that this individual had a track record of some issues. And in just what we've heard so far, there were at least two individuals that thought enough concern to contact the FBI and report some information. But we've learned more about the number of police incidents that occurred at the shooter's residence over the last several years, a number of encounters with Florida's social service agencies related to issues. And then apparently, some track record of threatening behavior at the school that led to his expulsion, I believe, is how that has been explained by the school district. Jen:                  Yeah. Some of which is being reported in the media and we don't know the truth to all of it yet, of course, as it's being reported, but we do know that there was a tip, at least, that went all the way to the FBI, and the FBI has come out and made a report on that. But that's not necessarily what we want to talk about today exactly. We want to talk about what an appropriate threat management process would look like in an educational institution. Bryan:              So we've talked before about the need to have a robust and appropriate threat management processes within an organization. So let's just review that and then take maybe the educational context of that by focusing on school threat management But when we talk about a threat management system for an organization of any type, Jen, what are we really talking about that needs to be in place. Jen:                  Yeah, so ultimately we're looking at a process. A process where individuals can report something that may be suspicious behavior, it could be a threat that was made, there could have been an assault that was done. But some kind of process that escalates information up to somebody who can evaluate it, who can look at the information as they see, they can look the individuals involved and they can determine, is this a high-risk, low-risk, medium-risk threat, or what is the situation with that? But the point is that there's a process to which something gets reported, something gets evaluated, and then there's some kind of mitigation plan put into place. Bryan:              And in the evaluation, we always encourage, and I believe the real best practices in what standards there are around this, talk about a collaborative, interdisciplinary process between, we'll use generic terms, but between the business that is running whatever this is, but your experts in law and human resources and security, employment law if that's relevant. Jen:                  HR. Bryan:              Right. Jen:                  School counselors. Bryan:              Right. Jen:                  Yep. There should be- Bryan:              And perhaps outside medical experts on the psychiatric, psychological side of a threat, if that's necessary. It's not always the case. Jen:                  Yeah. And even, potentially, outside security help. Bryan:              Right. Jen:                  So a lot of times, if you have to create a mitigation plan for a situation, you might want to take some security partners and really come up with the best plan that's risk-based. Bryan:              And a lot of the places where we see failures in organizations, not just schools, is we look at and evaluate threat management organizations, we often see failures around having a centralized place to report threats, helping folks understand what a threat really looks like. This is the behavior, the warning signs that you might see, and then having individuals or a team that is accountable for working through that process, and then putting the right plan in place. We see breakdowns in a lot of those places throughout the course of the situation. Jen:                  Yeah. Absolutely. And I think even before it gets to the level of a threat, is having some kind of education awareness for all involved. So if you're in an organization, it would be all of the employees and the leaders and the executives. Everyone should have some level of understanding of whatever your policies may be, and what to do about it; what to do with the information as it's found. Bryan:              When it comes to education institutions, this gets a little murkier in terms of when you're talking about a ... I think it's a little clearer in college because you're typically dealing with, they are young adults at this point and the threat situation is a little more typical to what we see in businesses. But this is a particular challenge in the K through 12 educational environments because you're dealing with individuals that are still learning how to be adults, and they are struggling with ... You think of the changes you go through as an individual, they really complicate all the things going on between puberty and moving through what's often an awkward adolescence into young adulthood, figuring out who you are as an individual. Jen:                  Yep. Bryan:              A process that goes on for quite a while. But the challenges are different and the threats look different. And of course, we've heard about, for the last several years, about the impact of bullying in schools and the psychological impact that that can have, that can lead to some of these situations. Jen:                  Right. We're not doctors by any means. We don't claim to be psychologists or psychiatrists at that point, but we do understand a few of the risk factors that come within adolescence as far as threats of workplace violence goes or threats in the education system goes. And some of which is at a young age you are influenced by many things, and at that point in time, something small, as you know, coming from a female who was once a teenager, going through hormonal changes or something small, may seem like a massive thing. So a small grievance to us could be a very large grievance to them. Bryan:              There's also just the issue, and I think this is broader issue that doesn't just touch this kind of situation that occurred, this kind of incident that happened in Florida, but we see this when we talk about youth who become radicalized and participate in terrorism actions. At the core of that is this level of disaffection and disconnectedness to people around you. That is a definite warning sign that leads to some of this behavior. Jen:                  Yeah. And I think the big thing is, and I know we harp on this, but it goes back to education and reporting. So if you have an individual that has exhibited some of these higher-risk behaviors, the disconnectedness, the outrage of certain things, it's appropriate to not sit on that and to- Bryan:              To take action. Jen:                  ... to take action. The DHS, don't see something, say something, really comes into play here and making sure that the right people are looking at these information. And don't just laugh it off as, "Well, he's just a kid," or, "He didn't mean that." Well, there's no way to know that he didn't mean that. Bryan:              Until you evaluate it properly. Jen:                  Absolutely. Yeah. Bryan:              Through the process. Jen:                  And getting it in the right hands. I just want to touch back on that, the collaborative team that you were talking about earlier. The importance of that, and the importance of not having one individual look at something, as they may be an expert in violence prevention, but there are always different perspectives that come into play and always different parts in play here. So there are things like having a school counselor that may be more familiar with this individual than somebody else. There's the security, which often looks at it just from security. There are the teachers, all of the other individuals that may be familiar with the student, and/or getting parents involved, law enforcement involved. There are many, many parts of this team that should be evaluating these situations. So, just making sure that it's not a one-person looking at it and making that determining factor is really important. Bryan:              Totally agree. And I think the biggest thing out of all of this is that in these situations in educational institutions, is we can't just write this off as, "Hey, it's a teenager and they're going through the same kind of teenage angst that we all went through." All of these threats have to be evaluated, as you said, through the collaborative process, where you're getting these differences of opinion and you're looking at this from these different disciplines and an understanding of what that means, and coming to a joint decision, hopefully, about the direction that you're going to go. You need an effective school threat management process. We also think that there are threats that should be reported to law enforcement, and you need to work with law enforcement through those situations when we talk a little bit about what mitigation plans that we've done in the past for organizations that are faced with threats. Jen:                  Yeah. Sometimes the people that we've worked with have had a hard time understanding the need to reach out for law enforcement, and they don't feel that it's reached a certain level to where they need to reach out to law enforcement. But the thing is, law enforcement is there to help, so even if the situation does not escalate to that point, it's not a bad thing to reach out to your local law enforcement partners and help you conduct training. They will do that. They will help to identify threats as well. They will help to provide recommendations around mitigation plans and securing the facilities, and in some cases, they also will provide additional resources as far as, maybe they'll stay in the area longer, maybe they will do some drive-bys in their squad cars, and sometimes they will come onsite and walk the halls of your organization's structure. So there's a lot of resources out there, and law enforcement is one of them. Bryan:              Jen, when you think about the [inaudible 00:10:18] sense of experience as leading a threat assessment team, a threat management team in a large organization, when you think about the risk factors that make you want to involve law enforcement in the situation, what are a couple of those that come to mind? Jen:                  Well, so keep in mind that no one risk factor will lead me to believe that something is high-risk by any means. Bryan:              Right. Jen:                  But when you're looking at an individual, you want to look at it holistically. So somethings: Have they made previous threats? Have they done some previous assaults? What does their background look like? Do they have a high-risk background of crime and things like that? Do we know if they have access to weapons? I'm not just talking about firearms, but any weapons. Have they attempted assaults with weapons in the past? And then really just looking at them in a holistic way. So open-source searches, and this gets murky so make sure you're contacting- Bryan:              Talk to your counsel. Jen:                  ... your counsel before you're looking at really any of these things. But we've used a lot of open-source searching to find out what they're putting out on the internet. But again, that can get very murky, so make sure you're reaching out to your counsel before doing that. So looking at all of those things in a holistic way will lead me to, well, a couple of things. One, it'll change how I am documenting my mitigation plans and who to reach out to. So it's just so depending on what the situation is. But really, it's more of a holistic approach to it than any one thing that will lead me to be concerned about an individual. Bryan:              Yeah. I think that's fair. Jen:                  The other thing about that, that I was going to say regarding mitigation plans, that's very important. So when you have a threat management team and you've evaluated a situation, a threat, an individual, whatever that may look like, it is important to document those mitigation plans. So it's not just a, "Well, we've done X, Y and Z." You should have a very good process, and thorough process, on how you're mitigating exactly what it is that you're doing, for a couple of reasons. One, this situation may not escalate to anything, or it may escalate again, and then that again time may be beneficial to go back to your previous mitigation plans and revamp them. So that's a way to protect yourself and protect the individuals involved. Bryan:              So to summarize our view on the situation here, some unique threats in the K through 12 environments, when it comes to educational institutions that we need to really think through as you're addressing this, I think the other thing that really stood out in our conversation today is that even though these are younger folks, you have to take the threat seriously and work through your school threat management process that you should have in place in order to determine the best course of action. Jen:                  Yep. And one last thing I'd like to point out is, not all situations are high-risk, high-threat. So we don't want everyone to go back and think that everything is going to be a mass disaster, a massive incident. That is not the case. It's a very small percentage still that actually commit these types of incidents. However, through the evaluation process and the mitigation plans, should at least be able to work towards mitigating those situations through effective school threat management.

The band brings back Jenn Zahrt to catch up on how the winds of change are moving everyone. The gang gets into how to roll with change and work magic to aid it too.  Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by Spotify, RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Fabeku is at Fabeku.com and Facebook.  Aidan is at AidanWachter.com on Facebook and Instagram Jenn JennZahrt.com or CelestialSpark.com and on Facebook and Instagram. Andrew is on Facebook, Instagram, and TheHermit'sLamp.com.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript ANDREW: [00:00:03] Hey everybody, welcome to episode 100 of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I decided to get the band together for this episode. So, I am here with Stacking Skulls, being Fabeku and Aidan and myself and we have corralled [00:00:18] Jen Zahrt to come in and add to the mix today. So, hey, everybody! FABEKU: Hey. AIDAN: Howdy.  ANDREW: It's three months since we recorded, four months since we recorded, what's going on in your worlds? How are things, what's up? [00:00:34]  AIDAN: I've been good. I'm just enjoying the spring. Weather has been lovely. We got new kittens and yeah, everything is good. I, since the last time, we crested the one [00:00:49] year on Six Ways. So that's kind of wild, is to realize that that's been out and perking for more than a year.  ANDREW: Yeah.  JEN: Wow. AIDAN: And yeah, it's just, just keepin' on! ANDREW: That's great. [00:01:04] How 'bout you, Fabeku? FABEKU: Uh, good. It's been, yeah, probably the best thing for me. I've been doing tons of art, just cranking out tons and tons of art on an almost daily basis, which is good and [00:01:19] fun and exciting and then writing like crazy, usually in the middle of the night, which kind of sucks, but you know, at least it's getting done. Yeah, digging the spring/summerish weather that's finally happening, and [00:01:35] yeah, it's good, mostly things are good. Tea, donuts, cats, you know, usual shit. So. ANDREW: Usual stuff.  FABEKU: Yeah. For sure. ANDREW: Curtains being destroyed. FABEKU: Yes, every day, every day. [laughs] ANDREW: How about you, Jen, [00:01:50] you went on a bit of an adventure?  JEN: Yeah. I realized I'm on day 87 of my trip. [laughter] JEN: And it's been um, three continents, and also, you know, [00:02:05] I thought to myself like when I go home, I'm not really going home to anywhere specific and that it's been almost just over 400 days since my apartment flooded last year. So, I really haven't been home for quite a long time. Yeah, so [00:02:20] it's a wild ride.  ANDREW: How do you find that sense of continuously shifting right? Because since the flood you've been sort of on the move in one sense or another that whole time, right? [00:02:35]  JEN: Yeah, pretty much. I always have traveled to England for work. So, when I come here, I feel . . . That's where I am right now. I'm in Bristol, United Kingdom right now. So, I'm staying with somebody who I've stayed with for longer than I ever lived in the apartment that I had, so [00:02:50] it feels more like home than my home did, but it doesn't have any of my stuff in it. So that's a continuity. And yeah, it really makes you think about continuity and change. I really enjoyed the cross-country trip that I took last year, [00:03:05] and I went to Mongolia last year as well. So, these things were sort of moments of excitement and I was staying in a temporary place in Seattle. But yeah, so it's just kind of, it's been kind of having to roll with it. And ironically, [00:03:20] it's been amazing creatively because I've had all of this energy unlocked to just do my stuff, you know, like, and try to do magic on the run. [laughs] So, yeah.  ANDREW: And how is magic on the run? JEN: [00:03:37] Not as easy as you'd think. Well, I mean, maybe you wouldn't think it's easy. [laughter] JEN: But yeah, it can happen. You can do it. It's possible. You just have to get really creative and not be too attached to certain things. You know, you can't reify like, that object, you [00:03:52] know, you sort of have to just launch a sigil when you need to launch a sigil and not be too concerned about being precious about the things that you're using.  ANDREW: But do you think it's changed your, the way you're approaching stuff going [00:04:07] forward, or do you think you'll sort of revert to what you were up to before once that's more of an option? JEN: I don't really know. The astrology's showing me that it's going to be quite a while until I have something that people [00:04:22] would consider fixed and stable. So . . . [laughs] Knowing that, I'm just kind of like, okay, you know what? Here we go, swim, you know, you can't really fight it. So I'm really trying to go with it. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: We're trying to pretend that we're being, that we're fixed and stable but we expected this. [00:04:37]  [laughter] JEN: Well, that's just it, you know, it is actually an illusion!  [laughter] AIDAN: It's probably a load of crap, so . . .  [laughter] JEN: It's an illusion, and sadly, Andrew knows all too well! You know, you have this thing where you're like, it's all good, it's going, it's going, and suddenly, boosh, it's gone. And like what are you going to do, you know?  ANDREW: Yeah. JEN: And you just have to keep going, you know? AIDAN: Well, that was my interpretation of Andrew's stream of questioning, is he's like, okay! [laughter] What can I dig out of here that would be helpful? [laughter] ANDREW: Right? For sure! For folks who may not know, on March [00:05:08] 20th, my store had a fire and basically everything was destroyed. You know, nobody was . . . Nobody was hurt seriously. Firemen had some issues with smoke during the fire. But other than that, everybody was okay, and they're okay now. [00:05:23] But yeah, it's a big change, right? You know, I've been running the shop for six, almost seven years, I've been in that space for almost, for over 5, you know, and it's . . . Yeah, what can you do, right? [00:05:38] Uranus transits your midheaven and you're like, "Oh, I guess I'm changing a whole lot of stuff about where I'm going." [laughter] ANDREW: Unexpectedly, right?  JEN: Yeah. Exactly.  ANDREW: Yeah, and you know, I mean, kind of what I hear from what you're saying, Jen, which is what I've been [00:05:53] really trying to do is: Okay, how do you just lean into that change, right? JEN: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: Instead of being like, "Oh my God, how do I get back to where I was?" How do you, how do you kind of lean into that? How do you accept that and embody that? You know and I, [00:06:08] because you know, after the fire, there's so many questions about whether or not, like what would be the future of the space that I was in. I have the answer now. It's going to be a very long time and I'm not going back there. So, that's done. [00:06:24] You know, what's, what do you do next? How do you do stuff? You know? JEN: Yeah. ANDREW: And when you've been doing it for a while, it's often, if, it's often so much easier to sustain than it is to step [00:06:39] back into it as if you're starting over, you know? And so, you know, for me, the the prospect of retail is a big question mark, as it stands because rents in Toronto are insane, and because I'd been there [00:06:54] for such a long time. I had such a good deal, right? So. JEN: Yeah. ANDREW: Looking at all those possibilities, but also endeavoring to lean deeply into that change and be like: Okay, what what can I do? What would I like to do? Where's my excitement about this [00:07:09] stuff? You know? And so, just last week, from the recording of this, I took over a space that I'm calling The Hermit's Lab, and it's a space to, you know, see clients and teach, but also to work magic [00:07:24] and make products and make art and you know, really kind of get into what I've been enjoying anyways, which is the, the process of, like, you know, collecting plants and making things from them, and you know, doing stuff like that, that sort [00:07:39] of more, more, more active magic and craftsmanship, and more stuff that comes out of, you know, my, my sense of connection to the land and the plants and the things that are here, you know, [00:07:54] so, yeah. JEN: Yeah, yeah, it's, it just clears the decks in a way, and you think differently because all the potential things that used to be habits are completely shifted and you can't rely on that default mode anymore.  ANDREW: Yeah, exactly. [00:08:10]  AIDAN: Yeah, it is an interesting thing to think about cause there's a way that I look at . . . I know what Fabeku's up to, I know what y'all are up to, and the shifts that I did in the shop and everything kind of produced that same thing. You know, Blu and I just looked at it and went: [00:08:25] Okay, if we do this, we'll be able to pay the rent, and so, let's just do that and see where we end up and what makes sense to do in there. And we're way deep in that process because it's, it is, it's like, yeah, we've gotten into the habit we were in, even though we've [00:08:40] moved a lot, and switching that up changes, changes the possibilities.  FABEKU: Yeah. I think it's interesting because I was thinking about, I mean for me, a lot of the flux and shift . . . It hasn't been location-based so much, because that's not, [00:08:55] that's hasn't been much of my experience. But you know, there's just been weird health shit in the last handful of years and stuff just pops up out of the blue like, every, everything is totally cool, and the next thing you're in the emergency room. And they're like, "Oh, you could have died." And it's like, what the fuck is happening, right?  And then [00:09:10] on the other side of that things are different, and you, like Jen was saying, you, you end up doing magic differently. Again, for me, not because I'm traveling and don't have access to my stuff, because there's, there's different physical capacity, there's different energetic capacity, or there's just different bandwidth. And [00:09:25] you know, I was thinking, I think originally, one of my main drivers in getting into magic was I wanted . . . This was, you know, 30 whatever years ago. So it shows the sort of naivete of youth, but it was this desire [00:09:40] to somehow control the chaos, right? Like if I can, if I can just get a firm enough grip on it, then shit won't pop up out of the blue and shit doesn't happen and these weird things . . . you know, of course, all this anxiety, fear-driven kind of stuff. And then at some point, you realize: "Oh, [00:09:55] that's, that's not the way life works." Right?  So instead now, it feels to me like magic is more about, for me, figuring out how to sort of surf that chaos, you know, how to stay on the board, instead of getting taken under by the waves and drowning [00:10:10] in the process and, realizing as the wave travels, as it goes, life looks different, magic looks different, the responses to magic looks different, and just learning to be way more fluid with that then, then I ever really thought I would be or could be, [00:10:25] or wanted to be, really, so. ANDREW: Yeah, I mean, I think that the, the magical cultivation of resilience and capacity to go with the flow. You know, it's [00:10:40] not, it's not sexy. Right? You know? [laughter] FABEKU: Not at all. Not at all.  JEN: I think I make it pretty sexy. I have to differ! [laughter] ANDREW: I think we all make it pretty sexy. But I think if one was to publish a book that says, you know, The Magical [00:10:55] Guide to Resilience. I'm not sure it'd be a best-seller, you know?  JEN: Are you challenging me? Are you challenging? That's a challenge! I'm writing this down. [laughter] AIDAN: Don't worry, I think we could have-- ANDREW: I'll write a chapter, it'll be lovely. JEN: Good! AIDAN: Exactly. Surviving the chaos . . . ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: . . . while generating chaos. Yeah.  ANDREW: [00:11:19] But yeah, that's, I mean, that is a lot of what's been going on. Right? And a lot of what I've been doing, you know, I mean, I only recently returned to divining for myself. I was just like, "I don't know. What am I going to ask? Is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? Is it going to be okay? [00:11:34] It's like, well, you know, just work at it, work at making it okay, as opposed to like, you know, going to the cards all the time and you know that kind of stuff. And you know, and I think that a lot of the, [00:11:50] the stuff that makes getting through these challenging times possible, is about just showing up where you're at and being, "Okay, you know, this is, this is where my health capacity is. This is where my energetic capacity is. This is . . ." [00:12:05] You know, it's like, you just, you go there and then you work from that place and then, that's either the new limit for the time being, or a permanent limit or whatever, but you just kind of keep trucking with that, right? I mean, I think that's, [00:12:20] that's the deal.  AIDAN: Absolutely, and I think it's super interesting because it's a . . . There was a guy who was one of the co-trainers at a strength-training seminar thing that I did years and years ago, who dropped [00:12:35] off the map. He had kind of a highly relevant website for me for a while in the . . . Around 2010, is when I was kind of really involved in his stuff. I don't remember him from the seminar, but I know he was there assisting. And he just popped [00:12:50] back up on my radar because he had, in the interim, become a Green Beret medic, and then got blown up and lost both of his legs. And the thing that was, is the most fascinating [00:13:05] about that, to me, is, it's like it really made me look at how much I kind of . . . Because the guy looks great. You know. He's like . . . His target is like, "I won't be able to ski this year, but next year I'm skiing." You know? And he's got that kind of [00:13:20] capability to ride that, go, "Okay, I did this thing that truly mattered to me, and this is part of what came from that, and so that's just what it is, and let's continue, you know?" And I think it's been very helpful for me, that he popped [00:13:35] up when he did because I was kind of being a whiny whiny person about some stuff. And it's like, oh, yeah. No. No, all of this is kind of because of how I chose to live my life and all of that. And I haven't had anything severe happen. It's all good. It's all, it's all stuff I can [00:13:50] functionally work with, you know?  JEN: Yeah. I mean the length of my lease-less-ness or home-free-ness, I would say, is my own fault because I could have easily flipped around and said, "Oh, my apartment flooded, let me sign a lease," but my goal was actually to travel, [00:14:06] and then I just didn't stop. AIDAN: Right. JEN: And I haven't stopped and now I'm actually getting to the point where I'm realizing what my limits are, because I've finally met them, but I didn't, I hadn't met them until this point, you know? And so, and it's good like, now I know, but I just kept going, [00:14:21] you know, it wasn't enough. I had to go to Mongolia. I had to spend three months in Africa, you know? And now I finally get it and it's like, "Oh, I think I could probably be okay with signing a lease now, you know?" But for 400 days, it wasn't okay, you know, and I was choosing not to have that, so I wasn't [00:14:36] complaining about having a home. It was more like, I'm, I just, wasn't done with my trip. You know. [laughs] I was choosing to continue it as much as it needed to be, I guess. AIDAN: Yeah. Well, it's [00:14:51] interesting. I was, I've been thinking a lot about you, Andrew as you roll through with the Instagram feed and stuff and seeing your thing. And it is such an interesting . . . It's an interesting experience when kind of life makes the move, right? Because [00:15:06] we like to have that impression that we make the move, and in general, we just don't, right? [laughs] Or we pick the really safe minor ones, and then something really major that is seemingly random, you know, from our control [00:15:21] side. And it's been interesting to see because I can kind of cycle going like, "Okay, what are all the things he's got to figure out now?" ANDREW: Mm-hmm. AIDAN: Because I know you're not really . . . There are some folks that, that happens, and they go, "Okay, [00:15:37] 90 days, I'm back in business as I was before, bigger and better," right? That's kind of, we're not going to tip. We're not necessarily going to take any information out of what occurred. What do you find is kind of, what's the process [00:15:52] that you have going on with you about that? What are you thinking about? What do you find is brought up by this?  ANDREW: So, I think that leading up to the fire, like always, I'm always sort of like, looking at: [00:16:08] Where am I? Where am I enjoying stuff? Where am I not enjoying stuff? Right? What are the challenges? And you know, I sort of had like an 18-month to two-year plan to shimmy stuff in different directions, right? And, you know, I had been finding myself [00:16:23] realizing that there were things that I wanted to do that having a retail store kind of acted more like an anchor to, you know? Going to a conference is a huge effort [00:16:38] when you have to make sure that the store is running in your absence. Right? Taking time off is more complicated when you don't have full, full-time staff and you have to kind of cover payroll and make sure everything's flowing around your work time. [00:16:54]  And I've been having this sort of impulse towards making more art, making a new deck, you know, like a bunch of stuff like that, and, and I didn't have any time for them. And not because I'm [00:17:09] like, horrible at managing my time, but between, you know, having, having two kids half the time and running the store, it's not a lot of spare time left over, you know? And so, when [00:17:24] this happened, my first impulse was like, I mean, I certainly felt that like, "Hey, you should decide stuff now, you should get going," and my first impulse was like, "I'm not doing anything for like two or three weeks. I'm just not going to think of a decision. I'm just [00:17:39] going to deal with immediate stuff, insurance and what-have-you," right? And then, and then, I felt this like, push, be like, you know, you should, you should re-establish something, you should whatever and I was like, "No, you should make a list of things [00:17:54] that you would like," you know? And it . . . One of the things that it started with, so, in Toronto, I live, some people would say downtown, but kind of downtown-ish. Right? And when you go north to where the shop was, there's, for Toronto, [00:18:09] not for where Aidan lives, a big hill, right? AIDAN: [laughing] ANDREW: And it used to be that I cycled everywhere, right? But I'm a person who gets kind of sweaty, and [00:18:24] in the winter, it's dangerous, because we get snow and ice, right? To go up and down that hill. And I don't have a shower at the space, or anything like that. And I was thinking about where it would be nice to be and kind of one of the, like what I would like? I was like, you know, it'd be really nice, [00:18:39] really nice, if I could just cycle to work again all the time. Like if I could just not take transit very much, and just, you know, just cycle, and then as I was sort of kicking around looking at opportunities, you know, there's . . . [00:18:54] I was out strolling around with my partner, Sarah, and we saw this place in Chinatown. And I was like, "How great would it be, to like, you know, be, be just 15 minutes from my house?" As opposed to like the, [00:19:09] you know, somewhere between 40 minutes and an hour that it takes depending on transit. You know? I was like, "That'd be really nice," and it just sort of became this like question of like, what's possible? And what can I make happen? And so on? And then, [00:19:26] my other partner, Erin, sent me a link to this space that I ended up getting, which is literally a five-minute walk from my house. And it's just kind of, it's amazing. Right?  And so now, they're these changes that happen where, [00:19:43] things that I wanted to do but wasn't doing because of time, things that I wanted to do, like, I've been thinking about running a men's circle for a couple years now, but it doesn't make any sense if I have [00:19:58] to commute an hour each way to get there to run it or go in that much earlier than my regular day. But now, I'm like, oh, that's a five-minute walk. I can just, I can do it on any day that I feel like, and just be like, oh, yeah. I'm going to walk down to the shop. [00:20:13] You know? I'm gonna be there in five minutes. I'll be there a few minutes early, we'll hang out, we'll do our thing, we'll go home or whatever. Like, it's easy, right? And you know, the, the prospect of, you know, I mean, having kids, it's easier now, but I live [00:20:28] in Toronto. I don't have a huge place. And having space to make art and really like make a mess and whatever, you know, it's complicated, right? And leaving out my paints and stuff. I mean, the kids are great about it now, but it's like, there's not a lot of room, you know. The place [00:20:43] where . . . I either was thinking about setting up some space and giving up the walk-in closet in my room, glamorous space, right? Or it's the kitchen table, which you can't leave it on indefinitely, right? But now I have this space where I'm just going to have a permanent [00:20:58] worktable and easel and wall space for doing big stuff and you know, these kinds of things.  Because that was one of the other things. I was like, thinking about . . . People kept . . . People have been making references between the Orisha deck I made and Basquiat's art. And [00:21:13] I remember how much I loved how big a lot of his stuff was. And I'm like, I would love to be painting big, but I just have nowhere to do that. Well, you know, I've got 25 feet of wall space here. It's got enough and it's just, I can have it [00:21:28] on the floor. I can do whatever I want on it, you know. So, so it's this process of like looking for where the excitement is, looking at . . . You know, I sat down one night and made, [00:21:43] made this big list of, okay, kind of panicking about the future, is how do I, how do I make the kind of money I was making before? Which I need to support everything that I do in my life. How do I get to that? [00:21:58] You know? And my partner Sarah and I made this list of like, okay, well, what's everything that you can or have or would like to do for money, you know? It's just like going down a list of all these things. You know? One of the great realizations was, I was like, okay, what do I need [00:22:13] for these things? And the only one that requires a store was retail, right? AIDAN: Right. ANDREW: You know, that was the only one on the list that actually required it, you know. There's like, a whole, you know, field notes little pocket journal of like list of like 25 [00:22:28] things that I could do or have done or, you know, are currently doing, that I can just opt into instead, right? And it's just, so, it's not like I've been sort of, I don't know, [00:22:43] aimlessly leaning into abundance mentality and thinking that I'm going to just manifest everything without kind of thinking about it or working at it, but it's a lot more like I've been looking at possibilities, challenging assumptions, [00:22:59] looking, looking to keep an open-ended set of possibilities, you know? Like, even the place that I'm in now, you know, the advertisement said that you had to be willing to sign a year lease and I, when I came and I was, met the landlord and was getting shown around, I was like, [00:23:14] "So, what do you think about six months, because this is my situation" and they were like, "Yeah, that's cool. We can do that." You know, like, it's like, let's see what's possible, you know, and I think that when that happens then, you know, more becomes possible [00:23:29] and, you know, I've been thinking about stuff that I never even considered before, you know?  One of the projects that I'm going to start undertaking is I'm going to hand paint a set of majors, [00:23:44] major tarot cards, and you know, and then depending on how that feels, maybe I'm going to offer to do that for people, you know? AIDAN: Right. ANDREW: Like, you know, it's like, my friend Sullivan, who from [00:23:59] Tarot Sheet Revival, who does the Budapest Tarot and other stuff. Hey Sullivan, if you're listening, this is, this, this is a question I'm going to email you about soon. I'm like, he mixed cards in the traditional way, right? And he comes to Toronto sometimes. And that, you know, so he hand laminates all the layers, [00:24:14] and folds the background onto the front, and does all this stuff, I'm like how, let's do a workshop on that because like I want to learn, I'm sure there's lots of people that want to learn, you know, and so stuff that, that was never even on the table, that migrates in different directions starts to feel [00:24:29] really possible. And then also noticing the, like, yeah, that's what I want to spend my time doing, you know, really, really takes it that way, you know, so. Anyway, that's my long-winded rambling answer to your question, Aidan.  AIDAN: No, [00:24:44] that's awesome. And it syncs up with my kind of experience so well and it's interesting because I'm like, I don't have much resistance to change compared to most people, but I still do have that [00:24:59] thing? ANDREW: Sure. AIDAN: And then I have all the kind of layers of worry that come along with, if you're going to make a big change and it's going to directly impact your ability to pay the bills and, you know, feed your people and all that stuff, but . . . ANDREW: You've got kittens to take care of, right? AIDAN: [00:25:16] I've got kittens to take care of! Kittens need beef!  [laughter] AIDAN: Beef is the answer to all kitten ills, truly. A little off [00:25:31] and not right. We switched them to half beef and they're giant now and totally healthy. So, beef is the answer. ANDREW: Perfect.  FABEKU: I think the piece of it that makes sense, in my experience. What you're talking about is that [00:25:47] that kind of figuring out where the zing is, you know, figuring out the things that are exciting, figuring out like it sort of, once the chaos happens, it creates this weird kind of break in state where, rather than just continue to roll through the list of shit [00:26:02] that you do every day and assume that that's the program and that's the thing, you have a moment where you either get to or have to look at that stuff and say wait, is this really the stuff I want to do? Is this the stuff that matters? is the stuff I'm excited about? Is this the stuff that drives me? It's [00:26:17] this, you know, whatever it is.  And you know, I mean it's certainly been, you know, kind of a big reassessing and reshuffling of some of that stuff for me, and you know, kind of redistributing the weight of attention and you know, what I'm, what I'm spending my time doing, and [00:26:32] you know, I think for me that kind of sinks up to that deeper idea of looking at that chaos and kind of relating to it as like sort of building materials. You know, it's like somebody takes it and throws it all up in the air and it's like, okay, now that it's everywhere, rather [00:26:47] than look at that as some tragedy, and not that there's not tragic components to it, obviously, but you know, rather than sort of drown in that, looking at okay, now that the deck has been reshuffled, how can I how can I reassemble this stuff? You know, what do I want to keep? [00:27:02] What do I want to toss out? And if this is what's left, then, you know, what is, what is the new, the new octave of stuff look like on the other side of this, this weird chaotic event, so. ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, one of the things I find myself saying [00:27:17] sometimes to people around the Tower card is, you know, when when the Tower gets struck or whatever that disruption is, you have a choice, right? You can either be like Bugs Bunny in the cartoon sticking fingers in holes in the dam and hoping [00:27:32] that it's not coming down, or you can get at the sledgehammer and help, and then once it's disassembled, then you call in the architect and the engineers and, you know, work together to figure out what's happening next, right?  FABEKU: Yeah.  ANDREW: So. Mm-hmm. So, and I also think [00:27:47] that you know, one of the things, you know, to be clear too, because I think that there's a lot of "rah, rah, I just overcome stuff," out there, right, you know? And, like, this process [00:28:02] and what I'm talking about now, you know, it's almost three months post fire, you know, and, like, you know, I was in shock for the first two to three weeks, like literally just still physically in shock, you know, and [00:28:18] there were, there were times, you know, like I . . . I'm usually a person who has a lot of control over their mind, you know, I mean, I spent years sitting and meditating and training myself in different magical and sort of yogic [00:28:33] driven ways. So, like, for me to not be able to wrangle my mind back under to, you know, some semblance of control is, you know, it doesn't really happen much. And it totally happened after this, you know, I was out [00:28:49] at a concert, and I was I was just watching my friend play, and then this thought just came to my brain, which is your house is on fire, your house is totally burning down right now, and people are trying to call you, and you're in the concert and you can't hear them. And [00:29:04] I couldn't restrain it. I . . . In the end, I pulled my phone out and looked at it. I'm like, nobody's called me. If someone . . . at that point, I was like, okay, now, nobody's called me. Somebody would have called me if my place was on fire. There are lots of people who would get direct ahold of me. It's fine. But [00:29:19] you know, it's, it's important to really notice that stuff and to deal with that too, right? FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: Because even, you know, even as somebody who has, you know, a lot of experience sort of wrangling back their mind from various things, [00:29:35] there comes a point where it's just not controllable and that's fine. You know, it's acceptable. It's real, you know, and to, to work with that, you know? And like, I also, you know, I have a person I do peer counseling with, [00:29:50] and other friends I get a lot of support with, and, you know, my friend that I do peer counseling with was like, I'm available as much as you want, and I saw them like, a couple times a week for the first stretch, just you know, and just one-sided more than an exchange, because it's just [00:30:05] like, I just need the support. I just got, I just need to talk this through, you know? And so, I think that leaning into the possibilities is absolutely crucial, and, you know, dealing with the trauma of it, whatever [00:30:20] level that's at, is the other side of that equation, right? Because without that, you know, I feel like I would just carry the sense of worry about stuff going forward . . . FABEKU: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: And it would make every exchange with things, you know, like, [00:30:35] you know, like when my landlord voided my lease, you know, that would be a re-triggering thing, when, you know, this happens, you know when you're sitting waiting for the insurance to tell you how much money they're going to give you, that'd be another thing, and you know, just keep stirring [00:30:50] it up and stirring it up. And instead, I'm like, you know, have done a lot of cleaning up of it and so, it's way way easier now. So, yeah.  FABEKU: Well, you know, one of the things that happened for me after the [00:31:05] other big health event last year, which was about . . . It was mid-April last year, and after that for like six to nine months every time I would have even a tiny sensation anywhere in my body that didn't seem completely normal, [00:31:20] I would freak the fuck out. It was like, that's it. It's happening again. I'm about to drop dead. What's going on? At one point, I was talking my doctor and I said "Listen, this is a thing that happens." And she said, "Right, you get that like people get PTSD or some version of PTSD from events like that [00:31:35] that pop up." And I was like, "What?" And she was like, you know, "Come on, like, this is a thing that happens to people." And so, I get that, I think that there . . . And, and I appreciate that you brought that up, because I do think that it gets a little . . . The conversations [00:31:50] about it get a little one-sided. I mean the possibility is great and that's useful and important and helpful and there is this other shit that you know, it just kind of goes along for the ride with these weird kind of chaotic life events.  And then figuring out how [00:32:05] to manage that and how like you said kind of clean it up, and for me it was a process, and it's still kind of a process sometimes, of, you know, like how do you peel, how do you peel those layers of that charge off of that thing to where, you know, when your, when your leg goes numb because you're sitting weird, you're [00:32:20] all of a sudden like, "I'm about to drop dead," and then you just lose your shit, you know, it's inaccurate and not helpful, you know? But I think that that's it and you know, one of the things that my doctor said to me, it was interesting, was she said, well, you know, over time, [00:32:35] just, that I get that you're not going to love this answer, but, she said, "Over time you'll get that you're actually not about to drop dead, you know, because these things have come and gone, and you know, they pass and you're still here and it's fine." And yeah, I didn't, I didn't really love [00:32:50] that answer too much. But, but that's it. I mean that is part of the, that sort of peeling off of the charge, and I think that's that's a huge part of the process. It's a huge part of the process, for sure.  JEN: Yeah, it took me a long time to feel that [00:33:05] charge dissipate. When I was in downtown Seattle, it hurt and that's one reason why I kept leaving, was because it hurt too much to be near my old apartment. I felt like it had somehow spontaneously rejected me and said no, you can't live in downtown Seattle anymore [00:33:20] and it was physically painful and it took . . . It wasn't until I got back from Mongolia that it started to be, and that was about four months after the event? And then it slowly started when I would leave and come back and leave and come back, [00:33:35] each time I came back from a long trip, it would be less painful and less painful. And now I can walk around just fine, and I don't feel as much, but being there was painful, so I had to go and then return and . . . Just that, it was almost like I had to establish a new [00:33:50] story of my relationship to the city, because my only relationship had been with that apartment, and suddenly that was gone, and it was like, now, how do I live here? I don't know how to live here. It doesn't want me. You know, it felt like it was rejecting me. So, I had to re-establish that [00:34:05] relationship by rejecting it many many times before I could say, oh, okay. Yeah, I know, I think I can actually do this, you know.  AIDAN: Yeah. It is really interesting . . . ANDREW: [34:15 something is missing] AIDAN: [chuckles] Yeah, it's super interesting, because I do think that we, and I think that we've been [00:34:20] over all pretty good in these conversations in kind of going back to the reality, because it's you know, it's like, Fabeku and I have kind of, you know, I was thinking about this the other day, our time lining on a bunch [00:34:35] of stuff has been really similar, even though what's gone on for us is very different. And for a lot of that, I was a wreck, you know, it's like I was totally able to do certain pieces of what needed to be done. And then there was a bunch of shit that [00:34:50] just kind of had to be jettisoned. And I do think that it's kind of what you were talking about, Jen, is like post injury and surgery and stuff like that. It's been really a weird feeling out process, getting comfortable [00:35:05] moving pretty actively, and doing what I do, because it is, it's like, so, I can pick this thing up. And I know that that will be good for my body overall if I get back to working out because I kind of need it, but is this going to cause me [00:35:20] to have to go back and get opened up again and fixed again, right? And you've slowly got to go, okay, we just take it easy and do what you can do in any moment, but I think yeah, it's a . . . The Instagram culture [00:35:35] is right. Nothing ever, nothing bad ever happens, if you have, if you have the ability to grind hard enough. [laughs] ANDREW: Well, that's just it, right? You know, for me, you know, back when I used to do martial arts, it was like, oh [00:35:50] you just sprained your ankle. Here. Here's some tape. Let's go, you know? Tape it up and keep moving. Right? You know? It was such a bizarre, otherworldly thing, right? And so, you know, I kind of got to the place where I would get injured, and my response to it [00:36:05] was, did I go into shock? Because if I didn't go into shock, I don't need to go to the hospital. I'm probably okay. Which is which is really not ideal at all. Right? And so like, you know, as I've get, you know some injuries and stuff around climbing, you know, and going [00:36:20] back to climbing, it's always tempting just to push, and I'm still, you know, you could still be strong and weak at the same time, right? With injuries, you know? And so, I was like, how do I control this? How do I like, derail my impulse just to like [00:36:36] get excited? And it's not even about being macho in that sense. It's just like, oh my God, this is so fun, and this is so exciting. I really want to like, hang off this upside-down thing and try and do this move now, right? And it's like, oh no, that's not good. And so [00:36:51] I was like, okay, what I'm going to do is this: I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm a climb every single climb of one level in an evening, and when I can do that, then I'll go up one notch, you know? And you know, it's like, but it's this constant [00:37:06] thing, and you know, just be like seeing stuff and looking at it, being like, oh my god, I'd be so excited to do that. But then it's like, well but can my body, actually, in a deep way, sustain that, right? You know?  AIDAN: Right.  ANDREW: It's, yeah, requires patience and attention, you know. [00:37:22] So. AIDAN: Yep.  ANDREW: Well, and the other thing that's, you know, interesting for me is, I mean, all my Orishas are at my house. So, they're fine. [00:37:38] But almost all of my functional magical gear and altars and statuary and all of those things all burned, right? They're all gone. You know. I saved one meteorite that I had, that I found, I'm like [00:37:53] if it can go through the atmosphere, it can go through this. That's not a big deal. I'm gonna see if I can, if I can clean, and I mean like not spiritually, but just practically, clean my, [00:38:08] moldavite pendulum. I'm not sure, you know, it was exposed to a lot of smoke stuff. And, and that's it. You know, all my, all my cards are gone, you know? All the decks that I've had over the years are gone. [00:38:23] You know, and I mean, for me it's fine. I can replace many, if not all of them, and I don't really need a ton anyway, but yeah, it's this question of like, okay, what do I need? You know.  And I just remember it was a time in the process where [00:38:38] it was kind of getting down to, they're like, okay, so the engineers have been in, it's safe, you need to go in and decide what you're taking, and then everything else will get disposed of," right? Because you know, although a lot of people were like, oh you can clean stuff [00:38:53] and whatever, it's like, you know, my couch burned, so like all that Styrofoam smoke is in the space, you know, like so much toxic stuff, right? And it's like yeah, maybe you can clean that off, but I'm not really sure. And I don't know, [00:39:08] it's got toxic stuff on it, and I don't want to keep a lot of stuff, you know, and that smell is really hard to get rid of, even off of hard stuff, right? And so, I just kind of went in and I went where all the, all the shrine stuff was, [00:39:23] and just brought flowers, and I'm like, all right. So, this is a juncture, my friends. If you want to continue with me, let's continue, carry forward, and if this is a time at which you want to, you know, go on to do something else and then then let's called it at that, [00:39:38] you know, and just spending some time there. And you know, it's sort of, there's been a bunch of conversations where people, you know, expressed sort of that the loss of these items was the loss of that connection to spirit and, you [00:39:53] know, for me it hasn't really been, you know, and I don't think that it ever needs to be, but I think it's easy to identify in those kinds of ways, and you know, I'm like, I wonder how that is for you, Jen, too, like, did you lose magical things that you've [00:40:08] had to reorganize yourself around? JEN: I did not. I had a very lucky experience in that the part of my house that flooded destroyed property I was already getting rid of but that was quite valuable [00:40:23] and so it turned into a car. So, my apartment left, my things were fine. But . . . And the flood happened in a part of the apartment that made it unlivable. It was the entryway, the bathroom, and the front hallway. [00:40:38] And there was nothing in the bathroom of worth, and then the front hallway, there were stacks and stacks of astrology books that I was going to sell but they were all destroyed so I couldn't sell them. And then, the insurance replacement cost was enough for a down payment on the car. So, [00:40:53] I ended up converting them that way and yeah, anything else, it was, you know, not really things that I missed. You know, certain things I had to get rid. I had to get rid of because they got wet and just was, you know, [00:41:08] we didn't know what was in the water, basically, but overall, the most important things did get saved and so I was lucky in that way. But I put it all in storage. So, I haven't really had access to it up until just before this trip, [00:41:23] but then I left for 90 days. So, it still is like not in my possession. But so, yeah, our stories differ somewhat in that respect and I feel really lucky that I didn't lose everything in that way. Yeah, [00:41:38] I had a feeling that the protection magic that I had set up in my house was quite strong and it could have easily been that the water had gone in the other direction, which would have been catastrophic, but it didn't go that way. So. And also in terms of timing, is, Aidan, you were speaking that you and [00:41:53] Fabeku had the line up, Fabeku's health incident happened the exact same weekend that my flood happened. So, we were commiserating about that at the same time. AIDAN: Right. JEN: "Holy shit. What is going on right now?"  AIDAN: Yep. JEN: Yeah.  AIDAN: Yep. [00:42:09] Yeah, it is. It's a peculiar thing I had . . . This is kind of a switch of topics. But one of the things that was really kind of fascinating, this [00:42:24] last week, is I went and visited my brother in San Francisco. And his place is super cool. They're like, they do an amazing amount of really cool work. [00:42:39] Some of that is art and a lot of it is food and fermenting, and you know, they've got the bees and all of that stuff. But one of the things that I found really interesting is that there was a big fire on their block that took out [00:42:54] the building next to them, basically, even though it was a gas line fire in the streets, just because of the way that the pipe was pierced. It like shot this jet of fire at that building and messed that up. And then, [00:43:09] to get that building put out, the fire department ended up destroying a number of apartments basically, just with water damage, you know, that were attached to that. And then across the street, but moving away from their apartment, got taken [00:43:24] out by smoke and heat, because of the way the wind was blowing, you know. So, it was really, I'm sure they had a mass-, way more awareness that I did. It was very odd being in this house that was like, you know, a couple of feet [00:43:39] away from not existing with so much stuff in it. That was, that they've put so much work into. And it's, yeah, it's pretty interesting, because we've moved so much, we've become kind of so [00:43:55] minimalist, in some ways, though not in the way that usually gets used, that there's not much here if that happened. And that's where I kind of went. Like, I don't have much left, you know. It would be easier if I could grab [00:44:10] my computer. I would be happier if I could also grab a couple of guitars, but other than that, other than that, it's just the animals but there's really not, there's not much left in here that I am attached. And so that's an odd . . . It was just kind [00:44:25] of an odd thing. Like, yeah, if this place burned down, I could walk away. I could just walk away, and it would be no . . . It wouldn't be fun and there would be shit after the fact, I'm sure. But in general, I don't have enough for it to get taken out. That's [00:44:41] a weird thing, though.  JEN: Yeah, I think it all goes down to also like an illusion of stability, you know, we can set up shop somewhere and unpack and feel the continuity of a certain [00:44:56] period of time and then if it gets cut short, out of our control, and it's not our choice to move, or our choice to end the lease, it feels totally destabilizing, and yet we were actually unstable the whole time, really. You know, it's, it was sort of a, [00:45:12] I don't know. I've been thinking about that a lot. Like what is continuity? what is rupture? You know, how . . . What is security, even? And you know, through these types of challenges, can we still feel a type of security, even though we know at any moment it could change, you know? [00:45:28]  FABEKU: Well, you know, for me what's been interesting with that, kind of going back to that kind of post-event sort of panic trauma stuff that would kick up. I -- and I'm not pretending it's all the way resolved. But I think the way that I finally figured out how to manage [00:45:43] it on a day-to-day basis was, like I started to figure out like how do I, what do I do? Like, how do I amp this anxiety down? So, it's not a constant thing, and I was I was failing at that, because I was trying to grab hold of something [00:45:58] that would say: Oh, you're fine. It's stable. Nothing to worry about, nothing will happen again. It's not a big deal. And that was bullshit and I know it's bullshit because you know, that's, Jesus, I mean, I'm 44, shit happens.  But, and so that's ultimately how I started [00:46:13] to amp it down. It's like, well, the way you amp it down is you realize everybody dies, and everybody dies at some point, for some reason, however that happens, and you really have zero control over it. So, this constant anxiety and this, this grasping [00:46:28] for some kind of control mechanism that absolutely doesn't exist. It's a . . . it's an unwise investment at the end of the day. It's unwise, and it's ineffective and so it really was that kind of almost cliché thing of like making as much peace as you can with your [00:46:43] death, right? It happens, people die. And the only thing that I can reliably trust is that I'm in the current. I have no idea what the current's going to do. I don't know where it's going to go. But I'm in the current and that's all I know and that's it. And again, [00:46:58] I don't love that. You know, I mean, if somebody gave me the option of, you know, here's a, here's a foolproof control mechanism, I would probably take hold of it and say "give me door number one," but that's not a thing. It's not a thing. And the interesting thing . . . And I fought that [00:47:13] as a resolution because there was, there was a part of me that that kind of increased the panic for a minute, like well, that's a shitty answer to the question. But then when I realized that's literally the only answer to the question. That is it. There is, it might be shitty, but [00:47:28] there is no other answer. Then there is, then there was a whole lot of levels that started to settle in, and, and it's just stay in the current, that's it.  And then that also then circles back to what we were saying about, you know, figuring out what you're [00:47:43] actually excited about, and prioritizing the shit you spend time on, and the people you spend time with, and, you know, all of it. It's, so that's, that for me is the thing, and I don't, and I want to be clear, like I'm not, I'm not coming at that from some enlightened state. Like, it's not like, [00:47:58] "Oh, I realized my own mortality and I'm at peace." I'm not at peace with any of it, but it is what it is. And so that, the constant trauma response has amped down considerably, once I realized that, just stay in the fucking current. That's it. That's [00:48:13] the only option you have, really, so. ANDREW: Well, and I think that, you know, too like, you know, we all do some form of looking towards the future in divination and astrology and whatever, right? And you know, people ask me like, oh is that, you know, did [00:48:28] you see it coming? Did you whatever? And I was like no. No, I mean I didn't see it coming, right? And you know, there's, there's, in the Lukumí divination that I do, there's, when, [00:48:43] when you're in a sign of loss, say or like, you know, whatever, right? And I was in a sign, in a negative sign, when the fire happened, unsurprisingly, but there's a modifier that goes with it, which is Otonawa, right? And it means, [00:49:00] kind of loosely translated as that which you brought with you from heaven, right? And it tells you that it's, it was immutable, right? That whatever, whatever this is going on, the actual core of it you can't change. Maybe you can mitigate [00:49:15] it. Maybe you can bob and weave with it. Possibly, hopefully, you can accelerate your, you know, ramping up back out of it, but it means it's coming, right? And you're not going to be able to change that and make that happen--make [00:49:30] that not happen.  And, you know, understanding and thinking about life in those ways, where it's like I'm literally in a time where this is . . . So many things are beyond my control. And that that energy continued for a good stretch, right? Because, [00:49:45] you know, the insurance company is going to do what the insurance company's going to do. I have some say in that, but not a lot, you know. The landlord is going to do what they're going to do. The other people are going to do what they're going to do. And you know, you have to, you know, you have to [00:50:00] make some kind of peace with the fact that all you can do is are those things that are in your control and keeps, as you say, staying in that flow and moving forward, you know? So.  FABEKU: Well, one of the two things for me was-- JEN: When I--  FABEKU: I did a consult [00:50:15] with Jen last year and, we're kind of looking ahead at the year, and she said, "Well, you know, like I kind of hate to tell you but like in October there's a thing that looks a whole lot like the thing the past April where the big health--" and I was like, [00:50:30] "Fuck me, are you serious?" Like what the fuck! And then it was this whole conversation around so what can we do about it? Right? So, like you're saying, fundamentally the energy is there. That's the frequency. And then I think as magicians the question [00:50:45] becomes, how do I, how do I handle that frequency? It's not like I can just hit the delete button and it's gone. So instead, you know for me it was this whole Saturn thing that was happening.  So, I did this nine week long thing with Saturn and all kinds of shit. [00:51:00] And so something that could have been a life-threatening thing: I still got sick, weird shit still happened, and I saw the potential in it for things to get super serious, but it didn't. It wasn't serious. And I moved on the other side of it, because I think again, [00:51:15] there was this looking to the future, and okay, how do we and-- Listen, I wanted to completely eliminate the energy, but I got that's not how it's going to work. So instead, how do I shape this shit so that it's as least problematic as possible. You [00:51:30] know? And again, I didn't love any of that. But, but for me, that was, that was, that was the way to stay in the current at the time, and continue to maintain a relationship to the current as a magician, when it would have been super easy for [00:51:45] me to just lose my fucking mind about the fact that oh, this period of time looks a whole lot like that period of time that was super horrible. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. JEN: Yeah. So, did you, Andrew, [00:52:00] do the Lukumí reading right after the fire, to get that message? ANDREW: I was already in a reading.  JEN: Oh, okay.  ANDREW: They govern at least 28 days. So yeah, I was already within that structure. So, yeah.  JEN: So [00:52:15] when my flood happened, the city condemned the apartment as unlivable, and I had five days to move, and they would help fund relocating. So basically, just pay you a bunch of money to leave. But you have to leave within that period of time. And I called my neighbor and I said, "I [00:52:30] have to go, because there's a lot of money on the line, and I'm ready and willing. I mean, you guys know me, you say 'jump,' I'm just gone," you know. So, I was already packing and everything and I said, "I just need a mover, tell me who I should get." So, she said, "Call TGA Movers," so I called his number, and this guy named Harvey [00:52:45] comes on, and he comes by on Saturday, and I have to leave by that Tuesday. He appraises everything, and says, "I'll come by tomorrow with my truck and a guy named Eddie." I was like, "Okay, cool." So, on Sunday, he rocks up in this truck. It's this white van. And on the outside of [00:53:00] the van, there's this massive black elephant. And on it, it says, "The Great Ancestors Moving and Maintenance." ANDREW: Mm-hmm. [laughter] JEN: So, I'm like, you mean the great ancestors are moving me out of this [00:53:15] flooded apartment? [laughter] JEN: Like it suddenly went from being this like very traumatic, like holy crap, my life is just completely changed in one weekend, and I had to come back from, you know, speaking in a planetarium about astrology early, from, I was in Alaska when the flood happened, so [00:53:30] I had to fly home early, and this was so chaotic and everything, and then suddenly like within that week the ancestors are moving me? And I was just like, "How can this be a bad thing?" You know, and it suddenly from that point on was like, oh, okay, like this is actually something good, you know, and it feels bad [00:53:45] now and it's definitely traumatic, but you just can't ignore a sign like that. I mean, what are the chances? I didn't even look what TGA stood for, you know, and then there it was, like the great ancestors, you know. So.  ANDREW: That's amazing.  FABEKU: I think that kind [00:54:00] of going back to that thing I said earlier about originally wanting to kind of control or eliminate the chaos. Now a lot of my magic is focused on sort of asking that the chaos works out in my favor. You know? That it, and again not in some weird Pollyanna [00:54:15] like, oh everything works out the way it should, because I think that's a fucked-up idea. But it, to me, that's the way I shifted, like, as much as I would love to eliminate that kind of chaos all together, realizing that's not going to happen. So instead if we can kind of slant it [00:54:30] so ultimately, as shitty as it might be, as uncomfortable as it might be, as horrifying as it might be, somehow it sort of shakes out in my favor at the end, as opposed to . . . So again, to me that's the sort of asking the current to carry me forward versus, you know, kind of pulling you under [00:54:45] and the undertow at some point. So. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I did a lot of praying to have the intelligence and awareness to benefit from situations [00:55:00] and to find my way through them, right? You know, they're like, I'm like, there's definitely some like, "Hey everybody, grease the wheels for me, please," but then there's also like "and help me see, help me be aware, help me like, notice these things instead of just gloss [00:55:15] over them," you know, so that I can actually, you know, benefit from those opportunities and so on. So. FABEKU: Yeah, for sure.  AIDAN: I think that's a really, that's a really brilliant thing. And it's something that is actually kind of came up in a way this morning in the Six Ways group. [00:55:31] Is there's this, to me now, there's this difference of how I work. Like there's, there's the stuff like, the sigils on the wall are saying, "I want this, like this," right? But the vast majority of the work is more in line with what you were just describing. [00:55:46] It's like, there's all the stuff that is always going on and always changing, and this is the general direction I'm trying to go, and what's really important is that I keep going into something that is pretty similar to that, but [00:56:01] I don't care, in truth, most of the sigils are the best idea I have of what would get me there, right? But kind of the offering side or the prayer side, if that was how I thought of that, [00:56:16] is way more geared towards "yeah, let's, let this, let's let all these crazy things that occur, occur in a way that I could use more so than not, and yeah, let me have the brains [00:56:31] to not fight it and be able to get on that right track or get into that right current. Let me know when I actually need the paddle board rather than the straight up surfboard because otherwise it could be a very slow ride," you [00:56:46] know. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, you know, that kind of, kind of segues into one of the questions that we got on Facebook. I think it was Dre was asking what skills, what [00:57:01] skills do you not have, you know, that you would like to have, and how might that relate to your magic as well? Like not necessarily just magical skills, but kind of skills in general, you know? Is there stuff you're thinking about learning, [00:57:16] building up, adding to your to your vocabulary, or the things that anybody needs to kind of, or sees it as a benefit for moving forward? AIDAN: Man, that's such an interesting [00:57:31] one, because I'm always working that stuff.  ANDREW: It's clean and press, isn't it? Or . . . AIDAN: Yeah.  ANDREW: More clean than press.  AIDAN: Yeah, totally. Yeah for me it's, it's like, [00:57:46] I'm trying to not live so entirely in my own head. Like I'm aware of it, but I still get trapped by it, and how that usually happens is that someone else will say something that seems [00:58:01] crystal clear, but that I have actually totally misread, [laughs] and that's my biggest thing, and that's really interpersonal more than specifically magical, but that's I would say my biggest kind of . . . That's the [00:58:16] biggest hole that I'm aware of that I'm really working on is, especially if I think it's totally crystal clear, asking for . . . to verify, you know, because I find that I'm usually wrong. FABEKU: [00:58:33] I think for me, I was just having a conversation. A couple weeks ago, my oldest friend in the world was in town and we were, we've known each other since we were three or four. And we were talking kind of late at night. And, and I said, "You know, I feel like the next level for me [00:58:48] personally and probably beyond that is," and one of the things you said, when we very first started, Andrew. This thing of, after these things happen, like you're not the same anymore, and I think that what I've realized for me [00:59:03] is an in response to the last handful of years and some, just events and shit that have happened, there's . . . When I was in some, doing some trance work, one of the others spoke about it as, spoke about it as like this, this accretion of grief, which I thought was kind [00:59:18] of a fascinating language and it made it clear for me in a way that it was a little--it wasn't before--in this, the way that these, almost like the way a pearl forms, you know, like these layers of grief kind of buildup. And sometimes it settles, sometimes it's not, [00:59:33] but then over time, all of a sudden, there's this thing that just sits there and you're like, fuck, what is this thing? And then, you know, you realize what it is.  And so, I've been kind of looking at that and the way that that's affected me and you know, how to deal with that magically, how to deal with it in other ways, just how to deal [00:59:48] with it personally, and kind of moving through that, and, and again, not in the sense of being who you were before, because I don't think that's the way things work. But, but how to peel off some of those layers, that, that begin for me to feel really problematic [01:00:03] at a certain point. And I don't, I'm making some progress, but I, I for sure know that I don't have the . . . I don't have the skills yet and I don't even necessarily have the full sense of the right angle of approach. [01:00:18] You know, it's more, it feels, and I've had a few of these dreams, where it's like being inside of an egg and kind of pecking at the wall to figure out, okay, where's the where's the thinnest place to make this kind of initial puncture? Kind of a thing. [01:00:34] And I don't know if that makes sense as I'm saying it. I don't know how lucid that sounds, but yeah, I think for me that's, that's the focus. You know, how do you, how do you work through and sort of peel off some of those layers that have built up over time?  ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, [01:00:49] I think that it fits with stuff that I've talked about on the podcast somewhere, but I no longer remember where, about my work with meteorites and my idea of sort of like leaving, leaving the, the Earth or leaving for a different orbit and a bigger, [01:01:04] sort of more universal picture, right? You know. FABEKU: Yeah.  ANDREW: I wouldn't have sort of said originally that that was tied to grief, but it definitely was tied to a process of shedding a lot of things that . . . FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: . . . Have their roots back in some of those kinds of things. [01:01:19]  FABEKU: Yeah. ANDREW: And either were, you know, either became dead and unhelpful or were just problematic to start with, you know, so. FABEKU: Well, and it's interesting you mention it because I'm sitting next to this heart-shaped meteorite that I've been hanging out with for weeks and weeks and weeks and I, I [01:01:34] get, I get, yeah, I get what you mean on a real visceral level with that.  AIDAN: Yeah, that's pretty interesting. That's, that's, as you know, Fabeku, cause we've talked about it some, that that's a lot of what I've been doing for the last chunk of time, both on [01:01:49] grief and then kind of on the PTSD from just being fucked with in various ways at different points, you know?  ANDREW: Yeah.  AIDAN: And running a couple of people now through the process that I was given by the allies to see if it works for anybody else. [laughs] Cause [01:02:04] that's not always the case, but so far it seems to be doing its thing. Yeah. I think that's a very real thing. FABEKU: Mm-hmm. ANDREW: How 'bout you, Jen, anything, anything that you're working on, hoping [01:02:19] for? JEN: I don't have anything specific in mind at the moment. I think what I need to work on is not traveling. [laughter] JEN: And actually understanding [01:02:34] what it means to be in place and develop a kind of soft momentum as opposed to the fire hose that I'm used to. So, if anything, it would be learning how to throttle down and understand [01:02:49] sort of compa-, not capacity, but like amount, you know? Like not turning everything all the way up to 11 all the time, but figuring out more subtle modes, and also, you know learning [01:03:04] how to gather moss a little bit, because I feel like at this point, I'm like a polished little bullet, you know? And that can be fun to a point b

Often women are socialized to present as if they need nothing from the world. While the spirit of independence is inspiring, the reality is that as humans we do need things and that isn’t about weakness, it’s about humanity. In today’s episode, Jen and Annie talk to clinical social worker Mel Bosna to explore human needs and why they matter.   What you’ll hear in this episode: How to begin identifying our needs and how to meet them in a healthy way Societal messages around women’s needs Why it’s not really noble to ignore your own needs Anti-dependency culture and what it means Uncommunicated needs and expectations Maslow's hierarchy of needs When we put unmet needs onto our body and our food Food, exercise and belonging Finding validation from within versus outsourcing that Getting needs met within a family system Motherhood and how we de-prioritize our basic needs ahead of the wants of others Getting comfortable with the discomfort of vocalizing our own needs The discomfort of trying to be someone you’re not Getting curious about the kind of women we elevate and why The initial disruption that comes from laying down boundaries The habituation process as family acclimatize to everyone having needs Setting boundaries or choosing resentment How resilient relationships adjust to change Two dominant narratives around needs Coming to the realization that your happiness is worth the discomfort of others with meeting your needs Self-soothing after the discomfort of advocating for your needs Learning to advocate for your needs Learning to need without self-judgment Scheduling in time for family, self and relationship Shifting mindset from scarcity to abundance Role-modelling self care and examining the messaging we perpetuate when we don’t advocate for our needs   Resources: Mel Bosna’s Website Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance 365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies, on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. We live in a culture that often labels women who express their needs as needy or high maintenance. We praise women for being needless, for ignoring their own wishes and desires so everyone else around them can thrive. But denying your needs can ultimately leave you feeling resentful, misunderstood, or even downright angry. Clinical social worker, feminist therapist and artist Mel Bosna understands that having needs doesn't make you needy, it makes you human. Mel is a licensed clinician in the state of Arizona and believes that our best chance at health involve both individual and societal changes and as a result, Mel aims to validate the broader context of what contributes to the stories we're living while supporting clients to change what's within their control to change. Mel feels that it's been a profound honor for her to support women. Together they are learning how to walk away, claim new life, root into new ground, speak the unspeakable, own the narrative, change the script and to say enough to the shame and the lies that have haunted them for too long. On today's episode, Mel offers amazing insight on how to begin identifying our needs and how to meet them in a healthy way. Mel acknowledges that honoring and communicating our needs can leave many of us feeling vulnerable, but encourages us to acknowledge the discomfort as an opportunity for new growth. As always, if you want to continue the discussion from today's episode, we invite you to join our free Facebook group, Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Enjoy! Jen, we have a special guest, like a VIP guest with us today. Are you so stoked? Jen: I am. Annie: Yeah. Mel, how are you? Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. Mel: I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. Annie: We are so happy that you're here. You've been around our community for a while. Like you go, you go way back. Mel: Beginning. Annie: How did you, how did you find, well, it probably was Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Mel: Yeah. Annie: -at the time, how did you find us? Or how did we find you or do you remember that? Mel: To be clear, I really don't. I, I think I probably found you as like a recommended group on Facebook, which I'm no longer on, but- Annie: Thanks, Facebook. Mel: No, I stumbled across it and having worked in the eating disorder recovery field for quite awhile, I was always looking for resources that were balanced and appropriate to send people to. And so I just kind of fell into the group. I really enjoyed it for the season that I was involved and have just loved cheerleading, watching, you know, what you guys are doing, it's been really great. Annie: Well, we appreciate it. Do you want to take just a quick second to explain to our audience about your work, what you do? Mel: Sure. I am a clinical social worker in private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona. I've been in private practice now for about seven years, but prior to that I'd worked at a number of different facilities. So I did inpatient eating disorder work for about four years, specialize in body image work, sexuality, trauma, our relationship with food and spirituality and one another. From there I was the director of a group home for girls who'd been sex trafficked, was only there for about a year. Loved the population. The agency wasn't a great fit for me. And then I started having kids and you know, reevaluated my career at that point. And so I've been in private practice since then and really specialize with things that fall under the umbrella of women's issues. So I do a lot of complex trauma, attachment, parenting, sexuality, relationship issues, lots of codependency work and really just trying to empower women to discover who they want to be and to, yeah, just give themselves permission to find their own path, ways of meeting their own needs. Mel: And as they do that, it's just compounding, right. All the growth and freedom and vitality within their families and communities. So I definitely look at things from a specific social work perspective. I like to challenge systems. I like to dismantle them, I like to see, yeah, I just like to see people experience a lot more freedom. So- Annie: Right on and you're just, you're a good human and like a powerful, powerful woman. Mel: I definitely feel my power. That's good. Jen: You also are very, you're very creative, Mel. You have, you're an amazing photographer. Mel: Yes. That's kind of been a side project that I fell into. I never set out to, um, be a photographer. It's kind of funny that that word still doesn't roll off my tongue very naturally, but finding ways to integrate art within my activism and healing spaces has been really profound and healing for me, on both a personal and a professional level. So I do have a passion project where I photograph women who are telling their own stories so you can find that work on Melbosna.com. Women getting to share their stories with the hope of just kind of reducing the fear that often comes from just not knowing or understanding one another. Annie: Yeah, it's beautiful. Circling back to something you said when you were telling us about your work was you mentioned women acknowledging their needs, getting their needs met. And that's what we wanted to bring you on to talk to us about today because you and Jen had a little private conversation in the Instagram dm's which so frequently happens with, Jennifer, which I love and adore. That's how we get a lot of our podcast guests is that this, there's this concept and I really identify this, so I'm so excited to see what you have to say on it is, women are taught to be needless, that I always kind of attribute it to, and I know this wasn't her intention and I'm not pointing the finger, but this like kind of this Beyonce attitude, this like, "I don't need anyone. I'm too cool to care. Like I can do it myself." And like, and as a result, I often struggle for asking for help or even really being very clear on what, what do I need? Like what am I feeling? What do I need? And again, the messages is that we shouldn't be needy. Or if we're needy that we're high maintenance. And I think you'd probably want to, argue against that, right? That having needs does not make you high maintenance. Right? Mel: Right. Having needs makes you human. And so our rejection of our needs is actually a rejection of our own humanity and it makes it very difficult then to be a healthy human, are good human if we're rejecting such a core part of ourself. And there are so many different messages that we are raised with about having needs. So whether that's, you know, "Don't be dependent on anyone to meet your needs" like you were just referencing, kind of the anti dependency spirit, right? Like I don't need nobody or where we get those messages that say, that it's like good to be needless, that it's noble to be needless. Don't be aware of having needs or if you are aware that you should sacrifice them and that there's an honor in that. And women particularly are rewarded for being self sacrificial in that way, but it's not really sacrifice in a holy way. It's actually neglectful and it's destructive. Jen: Yeah. That's more where I identify with the word needless, where Annie thinks of Beyonce. And I think of like being subservient and quiet and small and being rewarded for that and feeling loved and validated as a woman because I don't take up space and I don't need anything. Mel: Right. Jen: I find that, I suppose they're both destructive in their own way, but I find that concept of womanhood more destructive than the Beyonce analogy. But I don't know if I've ever lived the Beyonce, perhaps that's why I find it more destructive and that's definitely my background is if anyone who's followed me for any amount of time, I've had a big breakthrough blog post about five years ago called The Selfish Mom in which I wrote about my transformation of, from just serving my partner and my children to kind of stepping out in the world and going, "Hey, wait a moment like this, this doesn't feel very good and I have needs and you four have to make space for those needs in our life." And just how inconvenient I felt and how uncomfortable I was. But, that went, I mean, millions of people have read that blog post now and I think it resonated with a lot of women. So, that's more my experience of wanting to be needless. Mel: Well, I think deep down, we know that we have needs, but we're not taught, again, how to recognize them or meet them appropriately. And so what I see happening is that because we don't know how to steward them or meet them in appropriate ways, that it will always come out sideways in our life. And so whether that's displacement through putting our needs onto other people around us with the expectation that they're just going to meet them on their own, or be able to read them or anticipate what our needs are or displacement onto other areas in our life that are inappropriate, that are illegitimate, expecting that to fulfill our needs. So, you know, at a very base level, we all, humans all have the needs for, you know, safety, shelter, food, water, stability, community, family, right? Like relationship, belonging. But above that, like if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs right above that, then we look at our needs for worth, for identity, for romance and sexual, you know, fulfillment or connection and self actualization and purpose and these other needs that, again, are, they're valid and human. Mel: And we all have them, whether we acknowledge that we have them or not. And so if they're not met appropriately, which most of us don't grow up learning how to meet them appropriately, they will inevitably come out sideways. And so in my work with women, I have seen it most problematic when women displace their needs for belonging, acceptance, worth identity, I see them displace that onto food or onto their bodies as a way of trying to meet that need and fulfill it, which will never happen appropriately because food was never meant to fulfill our identity. Jen: There's, another thing too, and inside of this idea that we can meet our needs with food or a body size, you have whole communities that have risen up to support these pursuits. And so what happens is you, you find, you feel as if you, you can find a place to belong if you, too, participate in this, whether it's these food rules or becoming this body size. And that can feel really good, especially for somebody who might actually feel pretty lonely or has been experiencing rejection, or has struggled with just fitting into this culture that does seem to be consumed with food. So it can feel really good initially. And you hear a lot of people, I think, they defend their diets, or they defend, you know, what they're doing, what their goal is because they still have the warm and fuzzies perhaps. Mel: That meets the need. It actually does meet the need. And so it's really hard to walk away from something that's meeting the need, even if it's also costing, you. Jen: Right. Mel: In the process. And so, I mean, I don't think anybody's crazy or stupid for engaging in those types of behaviors because they are, they are actually meeting a need, but it's not meeting it the way that it's designed to be met, if that makes sense. And so because of, because it's an illegitimate way to meet the need, there are all these, like, negative consequences or costs in the process, right? And it's so fluid. So you have to maintain a destructive habit in order to continue to belong or feel accepted or valued. Jen: Right, right. Annie: On a personal note, I found that a lot of the needs that I've been trying to meet, I've been trying to meet them from the outside in versus inside out, if that makes sense. You know, like I was trying to outsource my confidence or put my confidence in my self worth in the hands of other people. Like if my peers like my work, if my husband thinks I'm attractive, if my girlfriends like my outfit, if they think I'm funny, if they think I'm smart then like, you know, then I feel seen or I feel worthy or I feel good enough but it doesn't, it's not super sustainable because then I felt like I was forever reliant on this like applause or this like, "Hey, you like me, right? Like, I'm still doing a good enough job, right? Like, hey, like I'm okay, right? Did I do a good job? Jen: If you like me then I can like me. Annie: Instead of just like checking in with myself. Like, in fact, I've shared many times, Mel, you are actually one of the reasons I started going to therapy because you're like, maybe you need to talk to someone about that. Jen: Maybe just stop messaging me on Instagram. Annie: It was on Instagram. Jen: Mel set a boundary. Annie: And it was wonderful, but one of the things she said was like, "Well, what's your experience? What do you think?" And I'm like, "Well, they liked it so it was good enough." And she's like, "Uh uh. No, you didn't answer the question." And so turning inward or reflecting inward before trying to like outsource all that has been a lot, a lot of work, but it feels like I'm on the right path. Mel: Mmhmmm. It is an inside job and there's both power and grief related to that. Right? Like it's, we still want to have that validation or affirmation given to us from others because again, as women, that's what we've been taught is the path forward, right? As long as we're needless, as long as we're pleasing to others, accommodating others, meeting other people's needs for what, for how we should act or what we should look like, then we think that we can provide ourselves with that type of security. So it can feel really scary to start elevating our own voice, right? And our own validation, it can feel really scary initially because it's just such a unfamiliar pattern for us. But it is rewarding, like you're talking about, to feel so firmly rooted in knowing who we are and also how to meet our needs. Mel: So then it's not dependent on all these other people around us. When we know how to appropriately meet our needs, then we're not just outsourcing them and then scared or powerless with, like, whether or not other people are going to be able to come along and validate, support, fulfill what it is that we're looking for. I see a lot of women do this within their own family, again, because they don't know how to meet their needs. They'll just place their need for validation, for worth, for fulfillment onto their kids or onto their partner. Again, such a, such a vulnerability for their own growth as well as like a huge responsibility for their kids then to have to grow up with making mom happy, making sure mom's okay, making sure mom feels good about herself and so again, the more that we can learn appropriately how to validate and meet our own needs so they're not coming out sideways in our marriages and our parenting or communities, just the healthier the whole system functions. Mel: So it's taken a lot of work. I mean, from, also from a personal place. Like I didn't grow up aware of what my needs were or how to meet them. I am the daughter of a pastor and his wife and I love my parents so much, but both within the spiritual community I grew up with as well as the traditional family system I grew up with, I just was completely clueless and I just thought that my husband was going to know how to meet my needs when I got married at 24 and so this process for me of identifying what my needs actually are and taking ownership of them and then learning how to ask for support at times with meeting them, has been bumpy. It's been sold with a lot of trial and error. But the more that I've taken risk with owning what those needs are and learning how to nurture them and steward them, again, the healthier I have felt and the healthier my family system functions. Jen: I'm circling back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is quite common. I see this and with women I talked to is that, they are making sure or they are the facilitators or the supporter of members of their family reaching higher levels when their baseline is not even being met. And so sometimes I have to, really, it's hard, right? Cause everybody's operating from their own level of awareness. And you know, when I see a woman post, one happened in our community that she couldn't afford pelvic floor physiotherapy after paying all of her children's sports fees for the year. And something like that just breaks my heart, although I can't say I haven't been there right where you are so low on the to do list that your children are participating in multiple extra curricular activities before your own basic health care can be tended to. And what we talk about in Balance365, actually in our program is this, if you are a member of a family, this is a family job to sit down and make sure everybody's needs are being met. And that is so uncomfortable for so many women, me included. So I was wondering if you can help us in, sharing with our audience how a woman can get started there, what that's going to feel like. Mel: Sure. That's such a great question, Jen. I'm glad you asked it. I think one of the first things that I would, um, encourage anybody who's curious about this process is to start exploring what makes them feel so uncomfortable to begin with, right? And perhaps that's through journaling. Perhaps that's through talking with like, a good friend or your Facebook group. But really just starting to, to evaluate what is it that feels so risky about having needs and prioritizing them and when we bump up against our discomfort or that vulnerability, that's a prime opportunity always for new ground to take place in our life. And so again, we have been taught to avoid discomfort, I think culturally, on a societal level. Like we see it as like risky and just maintain the status quo. But again, that's always where new ground takes place. Mel: And so if we can get comfortable being uncomfortable, right? Like embracing, like, this feels really risky for me to take up space. Why? What messages have I received about taking up space? And whether that's with my physical body or the fact that I need a nap or I'm hungry right now, or I want a vacation away from my family. Or like, I need new clothes or I haven't bought new underwear and you know, so my clients haven't bought new underwear in two years. Jen: Right. Mel: And they're like buying their kids, like, whatever their needs are on a regular basis. So whatever that is, to be able to just say, what is uncomfortable about taking up space here? We just start with looking at the messages that women have heard and the stories they tell themselves. And the behaviors don't change if the story doesn't change. Jen: Mhmm, I think sometimes, you know, for me, I've had to look at the way, what type of woman I've glorified and what type of woman has been glorified within my family and my community or socially, right? So, members of my family, me included, we have glorified the woman who does it all. The woman who wants to be with our kids 24/7 and so I was trying to make myself into a woman who I have seen glorified, not into the woman who I actually am. And that's like square peg, round hole. It doesn't fit very well and it doesn't feel very good when you're trying to squeeze yourself into being something who you aren't. Mel: Right. Right. So I what I love about that, it's just the questioning, right? Of what's the story I've been given about what it is to be a woman, a mother, a partner and does the story serve me? Jen: Right? And the other thing you, a lot of women, have to eventually look at is who have they judged before? Right. So, in my story as I went about trying to be this woman, I was very judgmental to other women who weren't doing that same thing. I was very judgmental towards women who were being more fearless than me, setting boundaries in their family. I think I was maybe maybe resentful towards these women. Jealous? I don't know what it was, but they just weren't fitting into my narrow view of the way women should be which in the end ultimately made it even harder for me to kind of let go of this because I had a lot invested. My ego was totally invested in this way of living. So yeah. Mel: Yeah. It can make it hard when we're invested in a particular narrative, and I'm just going to say this cause I think it might be something that your community bumps up against. It's also really hard when those around us are also invested in this narrative. And so when a woman decides that they are going to start validating and honoring the needs that she has and her children, her partner, her, again, the community at large isn't used to her having needs. There is a disruption that can follow that initially, which is why we need the support and validation of others as well as we do find this new narrative. So I tell people it's kind of like a baby mobile. If you can picture one above a crib, right when you add or take away any part of that baby mobile, right? Like say it's a bunch of teddy bears. Mel: There is an immediate disruption to it, right? Like where it moves around and it feels like chaos and it's unsettling and uncomfortable for every part of that mobile, but eventually it habituates. It finds a new norm. And so for women who are learning, again, how to start to take up more space and ownership of what needs they do have, there is often that initial disruption where where their kids, their partner again, maybe like, "Hey, I don't know. I don't know that I like that you're leaving right now. Right? Or that you're going to go lay down right now or that you're readjusting the budget to buy your underwear when I was planning on getting a new, like, game boy or something." Like there's that initial disruption as everyone's finding like this new norm of what this woman's needs look like within the family system, but it will habituate. And so if we can get comfortable with that initial discomfort or disruption, we can trust that it is what's healthy and good for everyone involved. Annie: This is so hitting home right now because, this probably isn't going to come as a shocker, but I pride myself on being like strong. Like no, I'll just do it myself. Everything from like opening the pickle jar to, like, pushing a car out of the driveway if the battery's dead, like no, like I don't want to ask for your help and if you offer your help, I'm probably going to be even annoyed that you even offered help. And like, I'll just do it myself. And one of the things that I've accepted as I've grown older is I actually am a crier, but I have associated this whatever is behind the tears as weakness. That's like the story that I've told myself is that it's weak and it's something to be ashamed of. And watching the most interesting part has been watching other people respond to me crying cause it's kind of like "Is she okay. Like what? Okay, I don't know what to do with her right now that she's crying." And I'm like, it might not, it might be joy. It might be sadness, it might be I was just embarrassed or it could be so many things, but it has been, like, interesting to be like, "I know what I'm doing and I'm comfortable. But watching your discomfort is interesting for lack of a better word," Mel: Right, right. Well, it's unfamiliar for others it sounds like to see you show emotion, like part of your vulnerability. They're not used to that. And so, I mean, that's what I'm hearing at least. Annie: Absolutely. No, absolutely. That's spot on. Mel: Are you okay? Versus somebody like me or Jen who maybe cries regularly because of the narratives that we've shared about ourselves to other people. But yeah, they will adjust to your kind of new expression of your emotion the more that you practice it. Jen: In my experience, resilient relationships do adjust, right? So I decided to go back to work after my first son and somehow during my maternity leave there, an assumption had been made by my partner that I wasn't going back to work without a discussion happening and his life got pretty good while I was on maternity leave. It was very Flintstones for lack of a better word. And I have no judgment to anybody who has a lifestyle that is more traditional of father works and mom stays home and does the household stuff that is, if that brings you joy, I'm so happy that you're in that role. But I wanted to go back to work and I remember when I told my partner that that would be happening and how our life would have to adjust his jaw just hit the floor. Like he was just, you know, in his head I could see the wheels turning. Jen: He doesn't, you know, get to go to the gym every day that, you know, all these things, supper on the table at six o'clock, all of these things, he realized it would cause him more work. It was just life would become more physically demanding. And, you know, and that was kind of the reality for me of going back to work was that my life was about to get better and everybody else's lives were going to get harder. And it was very difficult for me to step forward into that and say, "But I'm worth it. My happiness inside this family is worth it. I have made so many sacrifices for all of you. You will make sacrifices for me.” And coming to the realization that that's actually how healthy relationships go, right? There's a give and take. And I think myself and a lot of women feel that there's, after a time, as Brene Brown says, you can set boundaries or you can feel resentful. You can, or it's choose discomfort or choose resentment. It's one or the other. And over time, a lot of women become extremely resentful because they're not able to move into that discomfort and, and say, "Hey, what about me over here?" You know, and you're waiting for someone to do it for you. I think a lot of us also have kind of this white knight complex, like there's some kind of, someone's coming to save us, but there isn't, nobody is nobody's meeting our needs, right. Until we ask for them to be met. Mel: Right, right. Yeah. I see that a lot too. Again, going back to kind of this two dominant narratives, one is, you know, again, somebody's gonna come along and and save me or meet my needs. I see lots of women who are just crossing their fingers, hoping that someone's going to notice, like, what they need and just naturally meet it and that either leads again to like total neglect or resentment or that other narrative like that Annie had shared where I'm not going to be dependent on anybody to meet my needs. I'll just meet them all on my own and neither is a true picture of health. Part of our work is practicing curiosity again with like, "Where do I fall on that spectrum, right?" And so the work that each woman has has more to do with the personal narrative that she has about what it means to be a woman and what she's afraid of. Mel: So if she's afraid of asking for help, right, like being dependent or intimate with somebody, then her work is going to be more about the vulnerability of needing someone else to help meet a need. If her work has been, or I'm sorry, if her narrative, has been largely resting on this idea that I'm not supposed to have needs or allowed to have needs, then it's moving into a space of validation and ownership of them. Recognizing that either way brings about that, like, that discomfort and vulnerability and lack of familiarity. It will be disruptive on a personal and relational basis, but it's worth it. I guess I'm curious to hear from both of you, you know, like what you feel like you've gained through risking owning your need, sharing your needs, doing this work yourself, what's come out of it? Annie: Oh, this isn't how the interview works, Mel. You know, one of the things that has come up, and this is kind of in the grand scheme of things that maybe doesn't feel really big, but I have spent so many birthdays and holidays and Mother's Days praying that my husband will get the gift I want, treat me the way I want, like do the thing that I want. And it's not even necessarily what I want. Not even necessarily like this big extravagant like party or anything. It's just I just, like you said, I want him to read my mind. Right. And what I've done since kind of doing this emotional work in the last couple of years is just flat out said like, this is what I would like. Mel: Yeah. Annie: And he's happy to do that. Like he's happy to fill those needs, assuming that he can make it, whatever happened. And oftentimes it's usually like, I just want to control the day. I just want to come and go as I please lay in the hammock, take a nap, go get a workout, have lunch with my girlfriends, whatever. It's nothing usually extravagant, but that's so much easier for me to just say what I want and like hopefully help assist, implement that if needed. And instead of the alternative, which was this like pouty, like "He didn't get mother's Day right. Like, that's not even the book I wanted. Or like he thinks I like that color? Like what was he thinking?" Jen: It actually takes far more energy, I think to be that, to just ask for what you need then to have all these thoughts racing all the time and disappointments and resentments growing. Annie: But then there's this, and I don't, I don't know. What do you, what do you think of this? There's this like, you know, okay. Just say, like, flowers. Like he got me, I wanted flowers and I kept asking for flowers and now he got me flowers and he only got me flowers because I asked for flowers, so he didn't really want to get me flowers, you know? And then there's this, like, he just got them because I asked them for them. Does that, do you know what that is? Jen's giving me a look like "What are you talking about? " Mel: I do. I do. Annie: Because I want the flowers because it's an expression of your love and how much you care about me, not just because I asked you to get flowers. Does that make sense? Mel: Yes, it does. I relate actually to this very specific example of yours. So I remember years back, my husband would bring me flowers on our anniversary and maybe Valentine's Day. Great. Right? Like those are the two days of the year that we would expect it. And so it wasn't very special. And I know every relationship is different. Every, yeah. But just speaking from my, and then not only will he not bring flowers on those outside of those particular days, he would bring me ugly flowers. Jen: Carnations. Mel: Yes. It would be like flowers that I would be like, "Ugh! Again!" like Annie said, "Does he not know me? Like at all?" Right? Like I would personalize it and so they would be like flowers that just didn't meet my need, right? And so I had to start learning how to advocate for my need. And there is an element to this process that, again, takes some of the surprise out of it, right? Like, like you were saying, Annie, like, you want, you want them to intuit, right? You want to feel surprised or wooed or whatever it is by it, but the need didn't get met. So if I was just going to wait until he intuited I wanted flowers, or intuited which flowers I like versus, you know, don't like, and then I would feel like a total B, by the way, like, for being upset about the ugly flowers. In the back of my head, I hear that shame voice, that inner critic that said, "You should just be grateful that you got flowers. Do you know how many women would like to get flowers? You should just be grateful." Mel: And so that should voice would weigh in, which would be invalidating of the need that I had as well. And so I started just, like, taking pictures off of Pinterest and sending them to him. "These are the types of flowers that I like." Right? And now it's like when I notice that maybe I haven't had flowers in a while, I might say, "Hey babe, sometime in the next like three weeks, can you bring some flowers home? It would mean a lot." Right? And is it lacking maybe in that element of surprise I wish was there? Sure. But does my need get met? Yes. And they're really beautiful flowers, right? It's showing up for myself and then he gets to feel like a hero because he's able to support, maybe hero's the wrong word, but he's in alignment. Right. He's getting to show up for me as well because I've showed him how to appropriately-. Annie: Yeah. That's, yeah. That's a great example. I love that. Mel: Well, you know. Annie: What about you? How has it changed since you- Jen: Are you looking at me? Annie: Yeah. Since you started showing up for yourself? Jen: I would just say I feel more like I'm living a life I'm supposed to live. I'm the woman I'm supposed to be and I'm in alignment with myself. I'm living a life aligned with my values. I feel I've changed the trajectory of my children's future in their own relationships because I'm showing up as a woman who, I'm normalizing a woman who asks for her needs to be met. Actually, early on when it did feel very uncomfortable for me and I wanted to hide and not do it I would do it for my children. So I have three boys and my husband also grew up with three boys and there was a very traditional model in their household and that just became their normal and my husband's normal and he wanted that normal to continue. Jen: So, these are just, you know, bringing this awareness to my children, I think, that women have needs, women take up space, moms take up space. The other, this is so small but it felt profound for me. My children had all had breakfast and exited the breakfast area. I was sitting down with my toast and coffee and my oldest son came back in for second breakfast and asked me for my toast and I was like, "I have not even eaten yet this morning and you are asking me for my toast, like I get to eat. Now it is my turn to eat. And if you would like to feed yourself again, you are welcome to go make yourself some toast." And it was just, it was just a moment for me to go, "Um, no, like I'm setting a boundary here with my child to say like, I'm taking care of me right now and I get to meet my needs before I meet your second breakfast needs." Jen: And this was just stuff I couldn't do before. I really was just a "Yes, yes sir" kind of lady. And yeah, so it's kind of those small moments, but also the big moments, in fact that I, even when I first started this business, I thought, I felt so called to start it. And then I thought I could run this business between the hours of nap time and my husband at work. And I realized at one point I was trying to, I was trying to create not just a business, but a movement and a community that did not disrupt anyone else's lives. Do you know? And I was just run ragged because I was trying to do this without interrupting anybody. So, and now today it's like, "Hold on, I do need help at with, you know, running this country, it is going to disrupt people's lives. Just like everybody, you know, just like soccer disrupts our lives and my husband's career has disrupted our lives. So, those are big things for me. But I, they just feel so normal for me now. It feels so expected. Like of course, like, that was crazy that I would think like that. Like of course my needs need to be met. Mel: Right. Annie: Mel, if you had a couple of takeaways, one or two takeaways, because what I imagine is, women are listening to the three of us talk about like, "Oh yeah, like, maybe I want to do that too," or "I should do that" or "That's a great idea." Or "I know I need to ask for this Xyz." I imagine some of them are, maybe can have the courage to like have a conversation with their partner, a friend, a mom and dad, whoever they're expressing needs with and then almost like hiding under the covers. Like, "Oh my God, I can't, like, I can't believe I just did that." And like having this, like, "Okay, I asked for it, but then actually maybe I asked for a nap, but now I'm going to actually go take the nap. Or I asked for a night out with the girls, or a night off from cooking or whatever it is." But then actually following through on it, like there's a different, there's a difference between expressing it and then actually allowing yourself to- Mel: Yeah. Annie: do the thing. What would you, how do you recommend women navigate that discomfort of actually taking action on their needs? Mel: Right. I think that's a really wonderful and important question. So, again, the story that we tell ourselves about who we are and whether or not we're allowed to have needs and whether or not we're allowed to receive, not just give, but to truly receive. We get to change that story. And so if something feels, like, so uncomfortable, distressing, intolerable. I had a friend who, who could hardly lay on a massage table. She felt so guilty, right, for being there, right, for that whole hour. We have to change the story. And so starting to soothe that discomfort, that shame, we want to expose it. Again, like Jen was saying earlier, asking ourselves, "What are the messages I have for myself about taking up space or having this need or receiving without always giving and how do I change that message?" And so for me, in my own work and the work that I do with, you know, my clients, it really is continuing to deepen into the fact that I have nothing to prove. I have nothing to earn. I have nothing to lose, but I am allowed to be human, which means that I'm allowed to have needs and that's holy and it's good and that practice of receiving it and taking up space has everything to do with the story that I tell myself and then the behaviors that I practice. And so if we want to see the behaviors in our life change, we have to always be critical then of what is the story. Does that make sense? Annie: Yeah, I'm just, like, in a trance that's, like I think I'm going to need to put that little clip right there on some sort of mantra meditation that I listen to every morning. Yeah, that's just, that's a really beautiful message and I really hope that your words and your stories and our stories give women permission that they're, you know, maybe needing to express their needs with whoever in their life. Mel: I hope so too. I hope that this inspires people to take more risk and to lean into that discomfort and, to accept that disruption is a healthy, vital part of our growth. And like Jen and you and both spoken to, healthy relationships around us will adjust, they will adapt, they will want to affirm even in the discomfort of that new pattern. And it's part of what teaches us, again, who's healthy and safe around us because if people don't allow for that growth, like us being human, right? Like having needs. If there's not an allowance for that, then, again, that's an opportunity to to be critical or curious about the types of relationships and communities that we're part of. So yeah, I hope this does inspire people to be curious and self validating, take some more risk. Annie: Absolutely. It's beautiful. It's really inspiring. It's very encouraging and optimistic. Very optimistic message too. Mel: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on. Annie: Yeah. Thank you. Jen, anything to add before we wrap up? Jen: I just, I actually was, Mel, as you were talking, I wanted to, just on a very practical, baseline level, how we kind of have figured this out in my marriage is that, I think in some marriages you get in these patterns of, like, give, like, a "me, me, me" or it can feel like that in some ways. Like it's this person or this person rather than this person and this person. And, we, in our marriage we had a real scarcity issue around time, energy, money, and once we've been able to just flip our mindset to one of abundance, I'm sorry if this is getting too woowee here for everybody to understand that everyone's needs can be met. Jen: Like they can, we have the time, we have the energy and how we actually make that happen is we had a marriage counselor once that said, "Every family should have three things you need. You need time connecting with each other time connecting as a family and you need time connecting with yourself." And we now sit down with our calendars and as unsexy as this is, we schedule those in. Are we hitting those three things? And of course sometimes we go through seasons where it's more about the kids, like soccer season, for example, which is right now, but then we, we have to keep in mind too, we have to rotate priorities back to that balance of hitting those three things. And sometimes a season of our life might be more about connecting with self or connecting as a couple. But, it's just keeping those three things in mind all the time and actually doing the unsexy things of sitting down for the calendar and making sure that's getting scheduled in. And once we started doing that, we saw there is time, we can meet everyone's needs. It doesn't have to be this tug of war. It doesn't have to feel that way. And I think when partners initially approach that conversation, you know, based on different relationship patterns, they may have been in prior, it can feel like that. But I, you know, I think it's a family conversation and how, you know, how do we do this for everybody, right? Mel: Well, I would agree there is a real practical element to this as well, in terms of, I don't know, I don't know anybody whose needs are met 100% of the time, right?Like I don't every day like feel 100%. Jen: Right. Mel: And that takes intentionality and ongoing curiosity or evaluation for me to know what needs to prioritize on my own. So for instance, I may have a need to hang out with my girlfriends, to get some exercise, right. To have some alone time, to, you know, like, to do a project and so I'm regularly assessing with the time that I have, with the resources that are available, what need do I prioritize and meet the most today or this week or this month. Right. And so there are seasons where my alone time is the most precious need for me to protect. Mel: And so that may mean that I structure then my schedule around having alone time, which may mean that I exercise alone, right? Or that I, when I finally have time to go out, I go out alone versus other times where maybe I need to sleep more or I need time with my girls more, whatever it may be that that self awareness is key. And again, we're often discouraged as my men to be that self aware because we're so focused on our children or our careers or the other relationships we have in our life. So learning how to prioritize, again, just practical, it's a habit. . Nut it will make women, I really believe that it's going to make one and less fatigued, less resentful, less discouraged, less alone when they're able to be curious and attend to the needs that they have. So it's worth it. Jen: Yes, totally. It's worth it. Annie: Alright, Mel. We're going to wrap up. But we'd love to have you back some time. I know that there's other topics you specialize on that I just, I would love to pick your brain on. And, think you're just such- Jen: I think we've both tried to solicit you for therapy. Mel: No comment. Annie: This is how we get therapy, Jen. We just keep asking her on our podcast. Jen: I remember, I asked, I told Annie one time, I asked Mel to be my online therapist. Annie: I did too. Jen: Yeah. And then Annie was like, I did too. Mel: I had to turn you both down. Annie: Well there should be. Yeah, there you were very ethical in it. Mel: You guys are my friends, you know. Annie: Yeah, you know, there's boundaries and ethics and you know, state laws that we tried to disregard, but you honored your boundaries and you're like, "No, you need to go talk to someone about this." And we both did and it's both been great. So thank you for pointing our heads in the right direction. But, we would love to have you back, because I think there's even an element here about how, what you talked about earlier and how some of these needs can come out sideways, that I think we could dive in deeper and how this need for belonging and acceptance can come out as, you know, diet and exercise disordered behaviors even. So, thank you so much for your time. This was wonderful. Jen: Thank you, Mel. Annie: So great to talk to you. Alright, we'll talk soon. Jen: Bye. Annie: This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life year 100% in love with then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

Could you be supervising your kids too much? Safety is important, but that doesn’t have to translate watching your child’s every move. Annie, Lauren and Jen are joined by parenting expert Allana Robinson to discuss outdoor unsupervised play, fostering independence and life skills and finding more balance as a parent.   What you’ll hear in this episode: Societal pressures around supervision and engagement of parents with their kids The amount of time working moms spend with their kids vs stay at home moms in the 50s What science says about enrichment and play Motor skill development and play How motor skill development affects reading ability Facilitating outdoor unsupervised play through relationship building in your neighborhood The value of small risks in learning to prevent injuries How children's’ injuries have changed with the introduction of “safer” equipment How to introduce unsupervised outdoor play in an age-appropriate way Boundaries and consequences - how to use them Helping kids learn to entertain themselves Judgement and the mom on the phone in the park What happens when you interrupt or correct play Isolation and the need for community of parents and of kids Zooming out from our kids’ behavior and learning to see it in context   Resources: Uncommon Sense Parenting Facebook Page Allana’s Facebook Group Ping GPS The Gift of Imperfect Parenting Your Kids Need to Play Outside Without You podcast episode (Allana Robinson) Marian Diamond Rat Enrichment Study No Child Left Alone study Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance 365 life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. We live in a culture where parents are expected to be with or entertain their kids all the time, but we also have other responsibilities inside the house that need taking care of too, and as a result, our kiddos' outdoor playtime often gets cut short, but today's guest has solutions. She understands the importance of outdoor play for kids and wait for it, she encourages unsupervised outdoor time. Yeah, you heard me right. Alanna Robinson is an early childhood educator and parenting coach for parents of toddlers and preschoolers. She helps parents understand why their children are misbehaving and what to do about it without yelling, shaming, or using timeouts. On today's episode, Alanna, Jen, Lauren and I discuss why your kids need to play outside without you and how to begin implementing that today so your kids can play outside and you can tackle your to do list inside or you can always just relax too. But before we dive in, it's important to note that we have a diverse audience, and even though we don't have immediate solutions for everyone, we want to acknowledge that inequalities do exist and people with different socioeconomic and racial backgrounds may have a different experience with outdoor play. But as always, we don't want anyone to feel left out of this conversation. And if you want to discuss any of these topics further, we invite you to join our free private Facebook group. Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Enjoy. Lauren and Jen, welcome to the show. We have a special guest. Lauren, are you so excited? Lauren: I am so pumped. I'm so excited to learn all the things. Annie: I know. Jen, I know you're excited cause this was a guest you found and you brought and you were like, "She needs to be on the show." Jen: Yeah, I'm part of Allana's, I'm in her parenting posse Facebook group. Actually, Allana, I found out about your Facebook group in our Facebook group. Allana: Oh yeah? Jen: You were, or did someone just recommend your Facebook group to me in our Facebook group to me in our Facebook group. So group to group. So I joined yours and you have said some things that have been so profound and have changed the way I parent and discipline, which is amazing. Allana: That makes me so happy. Jen: And even though you specialize in one to six year olds, I have, well, I've been in your group for quite a while, but my boys are transitioning out of those ages. So I have a five, seven and nine year old. I find your advice still works for my seven and nine year old. And so you just scale it to their level and yeah, it works. It's amazing. And it's taken so much stress out of parenting, right? Especially with discipline because you're always like, "Is this enough? Did he learn his lesson?" Annie: So in other words, welcome to the show, Allana. How are you? Allana: Thank you so much for having me. I'm great. Annie: Good. Allana: Making me so extremely happy because you never know if what you're putting out into the world is actually landing with people and it's just, it makes me so happy to hear when it does. Jen: I don't, I just read along. So I would say I'm a lurker in your group. I've posted once, but I read. And so it's actually a good reminder for me that in even our Facebook group, I'm sure there's tons of lurkers, so nothing you say is ever really wasted. And so I read whatever you write. So whatever you're doing in that group, I'm a step behind. Annie: And then she comes to me and she's like, "Hey, you need to check her out." And then I went to your website and listen to one of your podcasts. And it was about why your kids need to play outside without you. And I was like, "Freedom!" It was amazing. Jen: That was a huge moment for me and you're so open about your own parenting practices and you're not just telling people, "Hey, here's what to do." You're like, "Here's what what you should do. And I'm doing it. And this is what happens in our day to day life." And can I say the comment that blew my mind? It was just from a couple of weeks ago. Can I say that? Am I allowed? You told everybody, someone asked when they can let their toddler play in their backyard unattended. And then all these women were giving advice, right. And it was this huge thing and all of a sudden you swooped in and you said your youngest or you start them out one and a half years old playing independently outside by themselves at one and a half. And your son has been walking down the street to the park from four years old. Allana: Yup. Jen: On his own. And I was like, "Wow." And you said the world is safer today than it's ever been. There's this perception that it's more dangerous and we actually have more things in place to keep our kids safe even though it's safer. But that's killing us as parents. And actually what it's leading to is a lot more indoor time and screen time for kids because it's actually not realistic or sustainable to expect parents to be playing or even supervising their kids 24 seven and so kids aren't even getting the minimum amount of movement that they should be just because it's actually become impossible for families to provide that. Allana: It's an impossible standard. There's also a study that was done not that long ago about the difference in the amount of time working mothers today spend with their children versus stay at home mothers that spent with their children in the 1950s. Working mothers today spend more time on average with their children than stay at home mothers did in the 1950s so this concept that we have to constantly be in their face, we have to constantly be engaged with them. We have to constantly be enriching them. Jen: Right. Allana: Putting this impossible, impossible load on us. And you know where that came from? It came from another study. There was a woman named Marian Diamond who was in the 1960s, she was doing research on rats and how big their brains got when they played versus rats who weren't given the opportunity to play. Allana: And she was a woman scientist in the 1960s and she was playing with rats. So she got ridiculed socially by her male colleagues for being the girl who plays with rats. And in order to try and make her study, her papers more serious, have a bit more aplomb, she removed the word play and she changed it to enrichment. And nobody knows this woman. Nobody has ever heard of these studies before, but they have just trickled through our societal psyche to the point where we believe that we always have to be engaged with our kids or they're going to be stupid. And what that study should have said is the more time the children play, the smarter they get, the bigger their brains get. And that tiny little change in the way that we communicated that idea has had such a prolific impact on North American society. And now we're at the point where it's breaking us to meet those expectations. And we're so terrified that if we don't, that our kids are going to be stupid. And it's, yeah. So this fear that everybody has, and it's a deep seated subconscious fear that we have to be with them all the time or they're going to be taken or stupid. And it's just, it's not sustainable. You can't do it. Jen: Can I just, I'll just add another fear. That they're going to get hurt and someone's going to call child and family services on me and my kids are gonna get taken away because I wasn't there when they fell off their bike, broke an arm. Like, you know, it's just, I'm afraid of what my neighbours are gonna think of me. Not so much anymore because my kids are a bit older. But when my kids were younger, it was, we lived near a park, I wouldn't dare have sent, you know, in my head I'm like, "I'm sure they'll be fine." My Dad used to do some very questionable, like, I mean over the line questionable things. So you know I'd always have my dad be like telling me "It's fine!" Just, but you know, you, you actually worry about your neighbors. And actually I've been on social media for several years now and shared a lot of our family during that time. I think I started after my third was born and I have had many people message me and threatened they're going to call family services on me, like awful telling me I'm an awful mother. Like, if I'm trying to share like our mom life moments, you know, like, there's accidents- Allana: That hasn't happened to me yet quite frankly, because as you said, I'm very open about what I allow my kids to do. And there's more studies. There was this study that was done in 2016 about, it's actually called No Child Left Alone. And it was a study that was done by a small group of researchers and they basically asked a large, large group of people, they gave them scenarios in which a child was left alone and every single scenario was exactly the same except for the reason why the child was left alone. So they varied the reason, like, you know, mom went to go see her lover versus, you know, mom had an emergency at work and couldn't find a babysitter. And what they found was that people assessed a higher risk to the child based on what they morally felt the reason was for leaving the child, even though all the factors were exactly the same. And so what that means is that people don't just think things are dangerous and therefore, and moral, they think things are immoral and therefore dangerous. So, and when I say to people like "I let my five year old walk to the park," they're like, "Aren't you afraid CPS is going to get called on you? Aren't you afraid that somebody?" And I'm not because I know my neighbors. And that is how we combat that, because it's a lot easier to judge somebody on their morality when you don't know them, when you can't put a face to them, when you've never spoken to them. So, and it's awkward, super awkward. But when we moved here when my son was a year and a half old. And so he was just starting outdoor play and he was, he's tiny for his age, like he looks much younger than he is. And so I actually took his hand and we went around and we walked up and down our street and we knocked on everybody's door and we introduced ourselves. And I said, you know, "My name's Allana. This is my son Logan. You might see Logan around, he likes to play outside by himself. I'm okay with that." And people were kind of like, "Okay." And it was, it was awkward as hell. And you know, we have a bit more in depth conversations with our immediate neighbours who can actually see into our yard. But so no, nobody ever, I gave my phone number to everybody and said, "Hey, if you ever see him doing something questionable that you're not sure it's safe or appropriate, please send me a text message. Like I am always, I will deal with it." And what that people call CAS because they see a child doing something that they're not sure is totally on the up and up and they don't have a touch point. They don't have anybody to go to other than the police. So if you go to your neighbors and you say, "Hey, this is who I am, this is my child, this is my phone number, please call me if you know you ever need anything," it removes that ability to have such a quick moral judgment on you because they seen your face. They've spoken to you, they've had a conversation with you and that I think because we don't know our neighbors, in this day and age we move around a lot more. We live in much larger communities. Houses are much closer together. We don't, we don't know our neighbors the way that our parents did or grandparents did. So it takes a conscious effort on our part if we're going to be sending our kids out into the world by themselves that we know we've scoped out the world for them, right? Jen: Yeah. Go ahead, Allana. Allana: Oh, I was just going to say it like, he has, he's walked to the park before and I've had neighbors text me and be like, "Hey, so your kids at the park by himself?" And I'm like, "Yup." And they're like, "Oh, you're okay with that?" "Yup. Thanks for letting me know though." And they're like, "Okay, great." And that was the end of it. And they know him, he knows his boundaries, like, and there's a certain amount of teaching to this. You don't just send your kid out the door and be like, "Off you go." There's a lot of very conscious teaching that has to happen in, right. Annie: Allana, I would love to get into, like, how do you actually implement it in a little bit? Because I know like you can't just take a kid that, like, hasn't had any unsupervised play and be like, "Okay, see ya. Have fun." But I want to back up because you have quite a bit of information about, like, the benefits. Like why does this matter to the kids and why does this matter to parents? Allana: Well, because the outdoors is basically, like, nature's occupational therapy, right? Like the rate of children in occupational therapy has soared since the 1990s and it's because the kids aren't getting outside. When you go outside, first of all, the environment is perfectly sensorially balanced. It's made for us. It's not too loud. It's not too quiet. Depending on where you live is not too hot or too cold. But you can adjust it, you know, generally it's not too bright. There's, you know, very subtle sounds that help you orient yourself in space. Like just the sounds of birds tweeting and leaves rustling helps your brain figure out where you are in space. It has, there's so many sensory experiences, mud, grass, air, everything is a sensory. The heat from the sun even is a sensory experience that helps your brain integrate the input that it gets both indoors and out. It's not controlled and there's things that you have to adapt for which you wouldn't have to adapt for inside because everything is so controlled inside. So our kids aren't getting that stimulus that hopefully we got that our parents definitely got outdoors and the result is that there's a lot of kids in schools right now who have vestibular problems and it's affecting their ability to read. It's affecting their ability to sit down and concentrate. Spinning, spinning has been shown, if you spin for five minutes, it's been shown to increase your attention span for two hours. They've removed every single merry go round. Every single spinning toy. Kids aren't allowed to spin on swings anymore because it's "dangerous." They've shortened the height of swing sets. If you look at pictures of swing sets from like the 1960s, the set itself is super, super tall and the chains are super, super long, which means they got a lot larger range of motion. When everything got scaled down and we got super safety conscious. We literally scaled down the swing sets. The chains are much shorter. They're not getting as large a range of motion. They're not getting as much stimulation. So it's vital not just to, you know, their ability to entertain themselves. It's vital to their long term learning. If you don't have a body that can integrate all the information that you're getting, then it's going to crop up down the road in lots of different ways. Jen: Wow. You know what? We moved from Vancouver, a huge city in Canada to a very small city, in the interior British Columbia, 90,000 people. And then within that community we live in like this tiny little suburb that backs on to, like a provincial park. So just hiking trails and stuff. My children's life has changed. Being so close to nature and having other children on the block, like our doorbell is ringing constantly. These kids are outside all the time, way more than when we lived in Vancouver. When we were in Vancouver I felt like I had to facilitate everything because you're in this big city you like, it's just, yeah, it was, there was just, it was very, and it was very stressful and I don't even think I realized how stressed I was until I wasn't living there anymore. And I have so much more freedom. I, you know, we even live close enough to the school that, like, boys can walk to school and walk home. And then just my free time has gone way up. Like as far as, and the load of parenting has gone way down for me living in this neighborhood and in this smaller city and I just can't believe how the quality of our life has improved. It's crazy. Allana: Totally. And like I have a lot of parents were like, "Listen, I don't have an outdoor space for my kids. Like we live in an apartment building and I can't let them go downstairs and play in even in the public green space by themselves because there's, you know, 60 back balconies that face onto it and somebody is going to take issue with it" and I always say "Some is better than none." Jen: Yes. Allana: Taking your kids to a park and take them to a park where there's no equipment. Right. Don't take them to a park where there's all these plastic climbers and stuff. Take them to a park where there's no equipment, provincial park, national park somewhere that it's more of a natural space and let them play there rather than let them climb the trees, let them walk on the logs, let them go, you know, dig in the ravines and the ditches. That's much more high quality play than the kind of contrived play that happens on swing sets and stuff like that. Jen: Yeah, they, when my kids were young, we lived in New Zealand and they are extremely progressive as far as play there. And this is kind of when all this started coming to me, because I had never heard this kind of talk in Canada and they talked a lot about the benefits of decreasing supervision and increasing risk on playgrounds because for example, our school, our playground no longer meets safety codes anymore. And so our school is paying $100,000 this spring that we all had to fundraise for to put in a new, new safe playground. And I'm kind of sitting back while everyone's very excited, great, but I'm sitting back going like, this is a hundred grand on a new safe structure that- Allana: Is going to do them a disservice. Jen: Right? And so - Allana: Yeah, I know the feeling. My son's play, my son's school, he's in junior kindergarten here in Ontario and they don't even have a playground. They don't have any, like they have a fenced in yard and there's a play structure for the kids who are in grade four and up. But anybody under that isn't allowed to use it. And we're moving schools next year. And his first question was, is there going to be something that I can climb on Jen: Right. Allana: Yeah, dude, that's like one of my top priorities. Jen: Yeah. I see just as many kids in the field next to the school. It's all fenced and stuff than I do on the playgrounds. Right. So it's and then tell me this, I don't know if this evidence based or not, but I often wonder what happens on playgrounds when the kids are bored and there's no risk anymore. Like do they turn? Like is that why they're turning on each other at recess? Allana: When there's nothing to do, you're going to create something to do. And so the nice thing like, and people will often say to me like, "How do your kids play outside for hours on end? There's nothing in your backyard." And there isn't. We literally have a yard and a shed and, but there are things in my backyard. We have lots of loose parts. We have, when my husband built that shed, he took all the off cuts and just kind of sanded down the edges generally so that he wasn't getting any splinters. And so there's, there's a ton of lumber back there. There is sticks, there's mud, there's a sand pit, we have a water table that kind of turns into a pond during the summer because nobody cleans it out. It gets very disgusting but so they have all that stuff out there and they'll take like, you know, an action figure or a car or something, one little thing and they'll build this whole playscape off of it just because toys are built with a very specific purpose in mind and kids know that they're supposed to use them that way, right? You're supposed to use a tool the way the tool is supposed to be used. We're very, very clear about that with young children. So when you give them a toy and it's only able to be used one way, they're going to get bored with it really, really quickly. And then when there's nothing to do, they're going to start disturbing. Jen: Bleeping the child psychologist. Allana: I always have an explicit warning on my own podcast because when I get passionate I run my mouth. But yeah. So, but if you don't give them those things that are closed ended to begin with, if you give them open ended stuff and you expect them to create their own world, they'll do it and it will be so immersive for them that they won't have time to make, you know, trouble. They're going to be so engaged in it.   And that's the other thing is toys generally can only be used by one or two people versus open ended materials. "Okay, you want to come play with me? Great. Go grab a stick. Right?" So that's, it's a lot easier for children to join play when there isn't set materials for them to use, when everything's very open ended because they can modify what they're doing to include more people very easily.   And to come back to kind of what you were saying about the play structure, that's another problem, right? There's usually limits on how many kids can be on the play structure, especially in school environments where they're like, you know, there can only be five kids on the play structure at a time that just hamstrings them. It cuts them off at the knees and when there's children, you know, want to come in, they can't. So keeping things and it's just really, the science across the board just says "Back off! Back off and they'll figure it out. That's what their brains are designed to do." Jen: Right. And that's really what builds a resilient person. Right? They can figure it out in a moment. Right. The other thing that had been talked about in New Zealand I remember is as playgrounds were becoming more safe, they were not just less risky as in, "Ooh, am I going to fall? Or it was also, they were less physically risky in that it didn't require as much strength to go over these different spots in the park. So the upper body strength in children is coming down big time because they are taking out monkey bars. They're taking, you know, they're taking out all these upper body things." Allana: Exactly. Because you've got children in occupational therapy to build that up because they're not naturally getting it, they're not weight bearing. I have so many clients who their child is in kindergarten and first of all they're asking these kindergarten kids to read and write when that's not developmentally appropriate, but they also can't physically do it because they don't have the strength in their muscles to do it. Like fine motor skills starting in your shoulder and they work their way down. Jen: Right. Right. Allana: If you don't use your gross motor skills. You can't use your fine motor skills when you need to. So yeah. And the other thing about reducing risk is that they're reducing small injuries, but the injuries that do happen are much larger. Children are breaking bones more frequently. They're, you know, having huge concussions when they do, because their vestibular system is so underdeveloped, they don't know the limits of their body. And so when they go to try and do something new, they can't tell if they can actually do it or not. Jen: Right. Because they've had no lower level risk that warns them Allana: They weren't able to build up to it. Jen: Amen. Yeah. Allana: We've reduced, you know, cuts, scrapes, minor stitches and we've turned that into breaks and concussions and it's, ask any occupational therapist and they'll tell you that a lot of these things are very easily solved just by sending them outside to play. Jen: Right. That's so interesting to just reframing it, right? These things are good. Like this is good for your kids to make these mistakes, have these small falls. None of them are life threatening, but they're teaching them about their environment and saving them from future. An analogy to that, actually, I posted a insta story a year ago with my oldest son on a little mini quad at his grandparents' farm and he was doing donuts and it was all dusty and I got so many from women that were like, "I would never let my child do that." And he had an accident that summer. He bumped into the side of his uncle's truck and he flew and hit his chest on the handlebars and it really hurt him and it really scared him. I mean, he's wearing a helmet and we've got that safety stuff. And I was like, "Good." I could see the donuts were getting a little out of control. I could see that kid needed some kind of little bump to remind him that he is on a machine and it happened and it was good. And he is much more safe now. And I guess, I guess what, and also my dad's a farmer, so I grew up in, you know, "dangerous" environment of, like, just roaming around a farm and yeah. And it's like, I see now how good that is, but you know, and I moved to the city and I think of all these city kids getting licenses at 16 and like, you know, we're a little, when you grew up on a farm, you're just driving, you drive, right? Like you drive when your dad's lap or you, you're helping, you know, you're way too young. You're 12 years old and you're helping move trucks from one field to another. And then I think of all these city kids getting their licenses and it's like that's crazy that they have no driving experience. And you know what I mean? So it's like- Allana: I was reading something the other day about how it's taking longer. Like when I turned 16 almost all my friends got their license on the first try. And apparently there's some statistics now coming out that it's taking teenagers longer to learn to drive because they're having to develop vestibular and proprioceptive skills that they didn't as a child. And so they're not able to judge where their car is in space. Jen: Oh gosh, that's so interesting. Allana: So yeah, it's, this isn't just about mom getting some breathing time of being able to clean the kitchen without anybody crawling up their back and about the kids being able to entertain themselves. These skills that they develop, that looks like they're doing absolutely nothing are so important. And they will follow them for the rest of their lives. And it's just, it frustrates me so much. Jen: Lauren had a question, I think. Allana: Oh yeah, Lauren, did you have something? Lauren: Yes. Can I, can I? Hello? Annie: Hi. Welcome to the show. Lauren: Hi, I'm over here. I'm trying to get a word in next to Jen. Annie: Good luck. Jen: Classic little little sister moment. Lauren: So I love all of this. Can I ask some practical questions selfishly that hopefully will benefit all of our listeners? I have a five year old and a one year old and I'm wondering like, okay, my one and a half year old obviously is probably going to have different boundaries than a five year old, but the five year old, I mean, I let her play outside sometimes, but I'm usually watching her through like the window and whatever. Like so what are, how do I introduce this concept to both of them in age appropriate ways? Allana: So the five year old, as you said, it's going to have a much longer leash than the one and a half year old. If you have fenced space, it's, that's easiest because it's easiest for us to back off. But generally what I do with little kids is I start by being outside with them but not being engaged with them. So like blowing snow in the driveway. They can't participate in that, but they can be outside while we're doing it, weeding the garden, they might join in but they're going to get bored and they're going to go do something else. Doing things that need to be done anyways, but, and that we're around, but we're not focused on them. We're focused on something else. So that's like step one is generally just getting them used to the idea that you're not going to be watching them all the time. And then step two of that is starting that way and then being like, okay, I'm going to go in and go to the bathroom. I'm going to go in and make dinner. And just gradually lengthening the amount of time that you go in at the end of your play time so that they're not going from "I'm inside and supervised, to I'm outside and not supervised." There's a buildup to that and it's amazing how, like, children are very intuitive. So if we have concerns, if we're scared of them doing something, they're going to pick up on that very quickly. Their limbic system is very connected to ours and our inter brain is going to go, "You're not safe!" And so they're not going to feel safe. So it's a workup for us too, right? We need to feel confident and comfortable leaving our kids alone. So those are steps one and two generally for me is just being outside, not engaged with them but being outside with them. And then at the end of that starting to introduce, I can go inside and you don't have to come with me. And once you kind of work up to a good chunk of time, then you can start sending them out by themselves and lengthening that amount of time so that you're like, "Okay, well, you go out and I'll meet you there. Like I'm just going to go and put this in the oven and then I'll be outside." And starting to get them used to going outside without you following behind them. And then you can go out again, do something else, not be engaged with them, but be around and then go back inside. So you're kind of working it from either end rather than just sending them out on their own. And that's generally a nice good workup for kids. They don't feel scared because they know you're coming, you know that you're not having to like peek through the window to keep an eye on them either because they can sense that too. Windows don't block limbic resonance. Lauren: Do you have tips if your yard is not fenced in, like, do you give them ahead of time, like, boundaries? Allana: Absolutely. So my favorite tool for this is go to Home Depot or Lowe's and grab some of that neon paint that they mark gas lines with when you call and be like, "Hey, I'm going to dig in my yard." And then somebody comes by and like Mark's all your gas lines so you don't hit a gas line when you dig. Go and get that and spray your property line. And I do that every spring with my two, because I have a two and a half year old. And so last year he was a year and a half and he wants to play in the front yard with his big brother, but there's no barrier in the front. So he was getting really angry because my big can let himself in and out of the backyard and the little one can't and he'd be so mad when my big one would leave him in the backyard. So I did. I went and I got the orange paint and I sprayed, just a line right down our ditch and down either side of our front yard. It doesn't look great, but when you mow the grass goes away and he, and I was like, "Listen, you cannot cross the orange line without mummy or daddy." And we walked the orange line and I showed him, "Yes, no, you cannot go on this other side." And it did. We had to work up to it Again, starting with me being outside with them and keeping an eye on them, but not engaged with them, reminding him that he can't cross that line and just very gradually backing away from him and letting him have more ownership over that. Now we can go just about anywhere. Like we have a cottage with a waterfront that we go to in the summer and now I can like walk up and like spray that line along the waterfront and I'm like, you can't cross the dark line- Jen: Take it to your hotel. Annie: The restaurant. Jen: The restaurant play here, don't worry, you can mow it out. Allana: I've done it with orange electric. Try and pick a color and stick to it because kids tend to get that, like, color association. But I've done it with orange electrical tape, like, we were at, actually just this last week, my big one was hospitalized and we were in this waiting room, like, it was like an examination room with the door didn't close. It was kind of like just a triage kind of space. And my little one was kept trying to escape and I busted out my roll of orange electrical tape and put on a hard line on the doorway and I was like, you can't cross the orange line. And he was like, "Okay." Jen: That's so awesome. Annie: it is. Allana: At this point that he's like, "No, we don't cross orange lines," causes problems when they're like, "Here you can go!" Like where were we? We were at Wonderland or something like that last summer and there was, like, a line on the ground to mark where you can't cross to go before you go on a ride. And they were like "Come!" and he was like, "Uh uh, we don't cross orange lines." Annie: So I have a feisty two and a half year old and I'm picturing this like it, like I'm, this is not that I don't believe you, but I mean- Allana: It's not an overnight thing. Annie: Yeah. I'm picturing me, like, getting out, like, rope or a spray can and like her just laughing in my face like, "Yeah, okay, mom. Right." Allana: Right. Well and they do. But that's the thing where you have to very consistently redirect them back to the other side. And- Annie: What have you used as appropriate consequences? Like do you say, like, "Sorry, we can't play outside then if you-" Allana: Yeah, well if you can't, so I often say like "If I can't trust you to stay on this side of the orange line, then we're going to have to go inside. Or if I can't trust you to go stay on this side of the orange line, we're going to have to go in the backyard that's fenced" and, or "if I can't trust you to be playing up" like often when I was starting to do this with him, I would be washing my car because my husband's a car nut and so it makes him very happy when I wash my car frequently. So I was like, all right, this makes him happy. This makes me happy. We're going to wash the car while the kids play in the front yard. And like, I mean it's nice when you have an older child who gets to be the tattle tale, but it was like, "Mom, Owie's going into the road" and I would bring him back. "If you can't stay on this side of the orange line, then you're going to have to come and sit in the car." And he was like, "Uh un." And I was like, "Yeah." And it doesn't take very many times of, like, "Hey," as long as you tell them what is going to happen before it happens. Like you can't spring it on them and be like, "Nope, if can't stay on this side of the orange line I'm going to strap you into your car seat." And then they're like, "Well, I didn't know that was what was on the line." Jen: That's actually, this is another huge takeaway I've gotten from your group is the whole concept of natural consequences, like, life changing. We could do a whole other podcast on it and I'm sure people can find more about it on your podcast. But I, it's just like brought my chill level into a normal range around my kids. And, you know, even, it was in your group, it was something about, it was just like this, right? So it's like you lay out the boundary, you tell them what the consequence is and it's a natural consequence. So it's so it's not like disciplining anymore, right? Allana: Exactly. Annie: It's about getting them to connect to the consequences of their actions. Allana: and kids can tell when we're pulling a power trip, right? Timeouts all that stuff. They know when we're like, "No, I'm just doing this because I can." And so, like, things with, "Okay, if you can't stay on this side of the orange line," the best logical consequence for that would be, "Okay, well then you need to go into the gated area." Like that's, he doesn't want that because he knows his big brother's not in the gated area. He knows that, you know, he wants to be in the front with us. And so that creates a consciousness in him that he's like, "Okay, I need to think critically about this. I'm not going to," and they will test. Kids are scientists. They use the scientific method with much more accuracy than any adult. And they will have a theory and they will test every variable possible, which is why I say, like, try and keep the color consistent because like my son, we were at my mom's once and she didn't have any orange paint, so I busted out some pink. Pink apparently doesn't have the same staying power. It is not an orange line. Jen: Oh my kids would do that. Allana: Because right. Anytime you introduce a variable, they have to test it. They have to, they're so inquisitive. They are scientific little minds. So, and that's where you have extinction bursts where they're like, "Okay, this was the limit before and now it's, there's a new limit. How hard do I have to push until we go back to the old limit?" So staying consistent really is the key to the whole but yeah, keeping, I've lost my train of thought now. Jen: You're amazing. Like you, it's like you're in a child's brain and the way you explain things is so fantastic. I can't wait to send everybody to your podcast and you just, and then suddenly my anxiety in parenting is just gone when I listen to you because I know I'm doing the right thing and it will work out. Right. You sometimes feel like you're just trying whatever, just try it, see what works. But I just have this, like, reassurance from you that it's just consistency. Allana: it's so much easier to let go when you know what's going on under the hood and you know how their brains work. And that's, like, my whole philosophy is if you can understand how your child's brain works, then you can work with it instead of against it. And so many of the conventional parenting wisdom is working against their brain. Annie: Right? Right. Jen: Yeah. Allana: Dominant. It's trying to exert dominance. Jen: Then you get struggles and they feel, yeah, it's- Allana: They feel controlled and nobody likes to feel controlled. You push back and they feel like they're being manipulated and treated like subhuman. So when we just treat our kids like we would not how we would treat an adult, but when we are give them that kind of respect, it's amazing how quickly they come onside. It really is. Annie: And I think from like a parenting perspective, hearing you as an expert in this field, pun intended, it's almost permission giving to say like, "It's fine. Go inside, go to the bathroom, put a frozen pizza in the oven. I mean that's what I would do. Like make a phone call, whatever. There'll be okay. And they need it. It's not just for you." It's, like, it just helps me like do this guilt-free. Allana: Totally. And like I've had clients with 11 year olds who will still make their 11 year old come in from the backyard when they need to go pee. Like when you go to the bathroom. Jen: Like that thread in the group before you came in and laid it down with everybody. I was like, "Who are these people?" Like how long are you gonna be like basically- Allana: And the funny thing. It's like my babysitter, my main babysitter is 11 years old. And when I tell people that they're like, "What?" They're like, "But you don't her alone with them." And I'm like, "Oh yes I do. She can." My 11 year old babysitter can feed my children dinner, bath them and get them in bed and an hour and a half flat. I can't do that. Jen: That's the other thing is that eventually we're working up or my son turns 10 this summer and we've kind of given him the, when you are 10 we will start leaving you a home alone. Like if I'm popping out for groceries or whatever. And it's this thing he's looking forward to and that's kind of the law here. Just so everybody knows. I know the law's different in different areas. But that is, we are law abiding citizens anyways. And so if you can't leave your child, like it has to start happening at some point, right? On a gradual basis. You can't be micromanaging your kid. And then he turns 10 or 11 or 12 and then you go, "Okay, we're leaving you alone." Allana: We don't give children any ability to experience minor risk and then they turn 18 and we're like, "Go out and innovate." Jen: Yeah. Go live alone. Annie: This sounds like- Allana: And they're like, "I've never done this in my entire life. You can't start with, like, throwing them out the door. Jen: And then they struggle. Right. And mental health issues in freshmen university students are just skyrocketing. Allana: Of course, living with their parents for longer and longer because they just don't have- Jen: They're not self sufficient. Allana: Yeah, you don't know how to cope without somebody micromanaging you and telling you what to do all the time. And then when people are like, "Make good decisions," you're like, "I don't know what that means." Because you have no. Jen: Yeah. Allana: Litmus test for it. So it's, it really is, you know, when people say early childhood is so important, it is the foundation for your child's entire life. And if you can't start trusting them when they're four with little tiny responsibilities, how are you going to trust them when they're 16, 17- Jen: Right. Yeah. The other thing I learned from you Allana that I wanted to say was about this bored thing. Cause I think that's the next thing, right? So, okay, your kids are playing alone, but they come back and they're like, "I am bored." I learned this from you in your group. You said it is not your job to entertain your child. And I, so that's just what I say to them. Now they come to me and say they're bored. I'm saying "That's not my job to find something for you to do. Like you, go find something to do." Allana: You are not a clown. You are not the family cruise director. Jen: Right. Sometimes I'll say, "Here's your options. You know, you can get out the coloring stuff. You can go out and jump on the trampoline" or I'll give some options to "Go get your bikes, go down to your friend's house, see if he wants to play." But I tell them all the time that "I am not here to entertain you. That is not my job." And that's been such a revolutionary thing for me too, because I, you know, you feel the pressure around that. Allana: Well, exactly. And that comes again to that pressure of they need to be enriched 24 seven if we want them to be smart. And that the only person that's available to enrich them is me so I have to be constantly engaged with my child and it's just not true. In fact, it's damaging. Jen: Right, right. Lauren: So I have my one and a half year old, like, he'll go play by himself, like, no big deal. But my five year old has always been, she wants to play with somebody. Do you have any tips for like training that'd be like you can, like, she'll go play for a little bit but it's, it's just she's completely different than my one and a half year old and she seems to only want to play with me. Jen: Or what about an only child? Like people that have one child? Allana: Only children I find are actually the best at entertaining themselves because they have no expectation. Like, even my older son is super good. He's really good at playing by himself because he had to, he had nobody to play with. My younger one is not so good at playing by himself because he's always had big brother being his cruise director. I actually find only children are usually very good at playing by themselves. It's not usually such an issue with them. There are children who are just, they're extroverted. They take energy from being around other people. Whereas introverts, that's expending energy, right? So it's a difference in what we find stressful. And so for kids then that's typically how I find kids who are extroverts is when they're like, they always want to be with someone. I'm like, "That's because that refills their tank. That's actually calming. Jen: Interesting. Allana: Versus children who are spending energy. So for them it's actually more calming to have people around and to be engaged with people. And these are the people who when they're in their 20s want to live in those houses with like 40 other people and they're like, "This is fun." And you're like, "No, that's stress. Stress." Jen: Annie, sorry. Annie's been waiting. She's got a question. Annie: No, no, no, no. Jen: She'll try to shut us down, I know it. Annie: I'm giggling because I am an only child and like- Jen: Oh right. Annie: But also, but I'm also an extrovert, so I grew up in a house where, and this might've just been a reflection of my mother and father who both worked full time. And I know that they were just tired when they came home from work, but I always got to have friends over. But I grew up, this supports kind of what you're saying. I grew up in a neighborhood where my, you know, I had three or four best friends within a block of, and we would just skip through the yard to get to, cut through yard backyards to go to the other person's house. And it was like, you just come home when the street lights turned on. That was like our guide and I was, you know, that was probably fifth or sixth grade, but that was there, you know, get on your bikes and you just go, you, you, and, and as long as you're home, by the time the street lights come on, like, we're good. Jen: I'm at the point where I'm like, when my kids are hungry, they'll come home. Like I trust. I've come to trust it. And because you're building this relationship, right, you give them more boundaries and more boundaries and then you as a parent, you trust. You know, it's always a little, once you give them a little more, then it's another trust thing. But then, you know, I've built, like, in our neighborhood with my three kids, we just, there's a lot of trust there with my kids now. And maybe I do, maybe I have my kids have more free reign than some of my neighbors, but I have trust there and I know my kids will get hungry eventually and they will come home and we just, it just works. Allana: Totally. And even like people will say to me like, how can you let your five year old go down the street? Aren't you scared he's gonna get hurt and not be able to tell you or you know that somebody's going to snatch him? First of all, my child is usually low jacked with a GPS. So we do live in 2018, these devices exist. Jen: Oh, you actually have a gps on your son? Annie: I actually have a gps on my son. It's the size of about a quarter or a looney. Jen: What do you wear? Can you tell us about that? Where you put it, how you? Allana: Yeah, so it's just I have, you know, those, tags that they put on merchandise in stores so that when you walk out, if you don't pay for it, it'll beep and flash and all that stuff. So those have a pin that need to be removed with a magnet. Right. So I have just a little fabric pouch. GPS goes in the pouch and it gets pinned to his, he's usually wearing cargo shorts. So we put it inside the cargo pocket and we pin it in there so he can't lose it. Nobody can take it off of him unless they removed his pants. And- Jen: And that's connected to your phone? Allana: It's connected to my phone. It doesn't track him. It just tells me where he is, where the gps is in that moment when I go to look at it. So I can tell if he's, and it's accurate to about 20 meters, so I can tell if he's in the general area that I expect him to be in. It also has the ability to send an SOS. So he just pushes on it and it'll alert my phone that he needs help so then I can go find him. Jen: What brand is this? Could you share that with our- Allana: Yeah, it's called a Ping gps. Jen: Wow. I am getting three. Allana: It is awesome. I love it. There are about 80 bucks and then they cost about five bucks a month US to run. But you can't get a cell phone plan- Jen: Look at Lauren writing. Taking notes. Lauren: Ping GPS. Jen: Lauren lives on a beautiful acreage with a huge, that's why she was asking about the fencing and stuff for kids. She always posts on Instagram these beautiful pictures of her back- Lauren: Snow covered. Jen: Yeah, it's November, but it's gorgeous. So, these would be very handy for you, hey, for your- Allana: Yeah. Jen: Country kids. Allana: It also takes off a little bit of that, you know, CAS call pressure- Jen: What if? Allana: Everybody's so scared that somebody is going to go, "You don't know where your kid is" and you're going to go, "You're right. I don't." Whereas if somebody comes to me and says, "You don't know where your kid is," I can go "Actually, he's within 20 meters of-" Jen: Right, right. Allana: The whole like, and even, I was talking about this on my personal Facebook page where I was sharing that No Child Left Alone Study with just with my friends cause somebody had asked about it and my aunt was actually like, well, like she was the perfect example of where you're not judging something based on the actual risk factors. She was "Never be too careful and the world is a dangerous place." And I was like, but it's not based on the statistics, based on the information we have, it's not. Jen: Right. Allana: We were talking about it because as you said, you know, we always give them those incrementally larger responsibilities. My five year old has wanted to walk to the bus by himself in the morning for school, for months now. And the other day he said to me, "Mommy, please, can I have the responsibility to walk to the bus all by myself?" Well, I can see his bus stop from my front window. It's literally two doors down. Our neighbors all know him. My neighbor who lives beside me is on maternity leave so she's watching him out the front door. She's always texting in the morning like "Good morning," I'm being watched. So I know she's watching him too and she's one house closer to him and I was like, I really had no reason to say no to him other than people who don't know you might think you're too stupid because you're too young. That's not a good enough reason for me. So I let them walk to the bus by himself and one of my neighbors took offence and called the bus company and was like, "I don't think this is okay." And they called me and I was like, "That's their problem." Jen: Right? Totally. Good for you girl. Look at you go. Allana: He's, you say, and it's again, we're, I'm pretty sure the directives we get next year are going to be rewritten because their directive saying that children need to be supervised at the bus stop. I'm like, that literally means they need to be watched. And I was watching him. It doesn't say they need chaperones. So we need to start kind of advocating on the competence of our children too because so many people are so quick to say, "Well, they're five, they're stupid" and no, like you know what your child is capable of and even what they're incapable of and nobody knows your kid like you do. So if you genuinely don't feel like your child can handle walking to the park by themselves because they don't have the awareness of people around them. They're not able to walk on the side of the road. Like I didn't just send my five year old to the park, we walked to the park together for many, many times, almost the entire summer. You know, I would send him to the park and I would stand at the end of the driveway and watch him walk to the park and then I would follow him with his brother. And we would do the same in reverse and like, again, you work up to it so you have to know your child's competency level before you, you try and give them a responsibility, right? Annie: I find it really inspiring and encouraging to listen to you Allana. Like just own your choices even with some pushback from spectators or neighbors or family because I would have, I think that that's something that I get a little nervous about too is, like, my kids, my two oldest run the neighborhood and I really don't, like, I trust them. They've haven't violated my trust. Knock on wood, I have no reason to second guess them that they're going to come home and they're going to be where they are and, but I am always like, what do other people think? Do other people, like, know that like they're okay and that we've had these talks and like there's just this fear of judgment or fear of like getting criticized and then they- Jen: They think you're a bad mom. Allana: Or that I'm just lazy. Jen: It comes down to that in so many situations of decisions we're making and Annie and Lauren and I talk about this around nutrition all the time, right? So it's like you're scared. Do they think I'm a bad mom? Like it's just this constant thing. Allana: And it's that moral judgment again, right? Like do they think that I'm being, that they're doing this because I'm lazy? Does that make them think that they're at a greater risk than they actually are? Annie: I just want to sit on my couch sometimes, and like, don't move. Jen: I do.The thing is, and this, I mean you see it too, like, if you want to take your kids to a park and sit on your phone, I'm like, do it. And I see these posts on Facebook. They're like the mom who just sat on her phone or her kids had to play by themselves and the child was shouting, "Mom, watch me." And the mom didn't look up. I'm like, the child will live, like- Allana: Our parents didn't do that for us. Jen: No. And sometimes it's all the mom has in her day to just be chilled out. Like I had three kids in four years and we lived overseas. So no family and in New Zealand, a lovely thing about New Zealand too is that all their playgrounds are gated. So, and you can't get out. So I could literally go in and just sit and just Facebook or read or whatever, just ignore them. And that was the only time I had and I'm all the power to ya, girl if that's what I'm on. If I see a mom with- Allana: On her phone and I got in it last summer with the mom, cause I do the exact same thing. I bring my laptop generally and I will tether to my phone and like work at the park so that my oldest, my youngest kid run around and ours has a fence but it's not a closed off fence. So I mean if they want to, they can escape. I've walked the perimeter with the many times we've talked about what the boundaries are. If my little one, I've showed him there is a gate, it's open, but that means it's a doorway and you need to stay inside the park or we're going to have to go home and he wants to play. And every once in a while I'll just shout out like "Cubs, where are you?" because we call them the bears and they'll go, "Here, here!" And I'll go, "Great!" And I don't even look up as long as I can hear them I know that they're close. And this woman was like, "Excuse me, do you know what your son is doing?" And I looked up and he was climbing and I was like "On the play structure?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "We're at a park." That's what he's supposed to be doing. And she's like, "But you didn't know that you had to look." And I was like, "That's generally how sighted people determine information. Yes." She was so angry because I didn't have my eyes glued to his butt the whole time. Jen: Oh this busy bodyness is just killing us. Annie: Yeah. Allana: Kids don't need us to be in their face 24 seven. They need the space to play. And in fact, if you're playing with your kid and you're not into it, it removes all benefit of play for them. Both, all the people who are playing something need to be in a place state in order for the play to be beneficial. One person or group that isn't enjoying the play removes all the benefits of play for every single person in that group. So if your kid is forcing you to play trucks with them and you're like, "Oh my God, when is it nap time, I don't want to be here." They're not actually getting the benefit of you playing with them. Jen: Yeah, that's so interesting. Allana: So it's better to find something that you actually enjoy doing with your child and do that so that you're both in a play state, it's a frame of mind. It's not an action. Jen: Brene Brown has in her parenting book The Gift of Imperfect Parenting. They sat down as a family and made a list of things that fill everybody's cups and found the common ones and then that's what they focus their family time around now. And I thought, I thought it was such a good idea, right? Like it's mind. So Brenay Brown said it's mind numbing to play board games for herself and so she's just done. She's not doing it anymore. I was like, "Wow, it's so nice to hear someone like you give me permission to not do these things that I don't like doing with my kids. And I don't, I don't do things I don't like with my kids anymore either." Allana: Like I swim with my kids. That's what I enjoy doing. So we go swimming once or twice a week and we get in our mommy and kid time and that's great. Other than that, I'm like, "Please go do something else." And they're like- Jen: Raise yourselves. Allana: "How are you running a business at home? Mostly by yourself. Two little boys at home." And I mean, my oldest is in JK but he only goes three days a week. And I'm like, because they play by themselves. They go, I feed them breakfast, then I'm like, "Okay, play time." And they go and play in the basement and I'd go work and then they come up when they get hungry and I feed them and the little one goes down for a nap and the big one goes downstairs and play some more and it just gives you so much more freedom. It's actually better for their brain. Jen: And you're happier as a parent, right, having some time. And I guess before we wrap this up, I want to, you know, I just, I guess it's to, it's nice to let parents know that there is detrimental effects to your child by over supervising them, right? So just saying like there's measurable detrimental effects to these kids. Allana: Children who are closely supervised during their play will hamstring their own play. They won't allow themselves to go into a full play state because they're anticipating being interrupted or corrected. Jen: Oh interesting. Allana: So if you are constantly supervising your child's play, they probably aren't getting the benefit of their own play either. Even if you're not playing with them because they're anticipating having you go, "You can't do that. Don't use that that way. That's a firetruck, not a helicopter." And they're not allowing themselves to go into that fully immersed play state where all those benefits of play, all the problem solving and executive functioning skills and all that really get used in that play state. They keep their play very, very surface level when they're being supervised closely. Lauren: That's interesting because I find myself, I can't not correct when they're in view. So I put them out of view. I'm like, "Go in the playroom and play because when you are doing this, I cannot help myself but say stop it." Jen: It's like when I bake with my kids. I, like, can't handle cooking or baking with my kids because I, I just am like, "Don't do that. That's wrong. You're going to break it!" Allana: My mom's a pastry chef and God bless her, she can and I'm like, "Okay, that is your thing, Nana." She is totally into the whole cooking thing. And you know he got all these little, like, real knives and stuff, but they're small so that he can handle them. And the other day we were making, just chopping up potatoes for like roasted potatoes for dinner and he was like making these, like, really, like, random sized chunks. And I was like, "Okay, you're too," Jen: You're like twitchy about it. Allana: One inch cubes, not two, you're holding a knife and you're doing well. You're not killing yourself. Annie: Oh, that's awesome. So a lot of this is, I mean, it's not just about retraining kids to do this. It could be about retraining yourself too, or both or both depending on what you're kind of used to and what your goals are. And, but either way, I mean, just to summarize, this is good for both sides. Both parties, both parents, caregivers and kids when they have unsupervised specifically outside, but unsupervised play. So- Allana: Absolutely. And so many parents, so many moms express that guilt to me cause they're like, "I feel bad making the play by themselves. I feel bad that I'm not engaged with them. I feel super guilty." And it's like, "This isn't about you. This is about them." And it's, yes, it benefits you as well and that's nice, but this really is about them. This is for them. And it takes that guilt away. You don't have to feel bad for making your kids play by themselves. It's good for them. Jen: I want to just kind of leave us with this vision. I'm going to tell you something that really struck me when my kids were younger and was an eye opener moment for me actually. And I was watching, I was in a hard place with motherhood, right? Like these three kids under five, oh my gosh, under four actually. And I was watching The Good Shepherd and it's an old movie that takes place in the fifties. It has Matt Damon and Angelina Jolie and there's this scene where Matt Damon, he's coming home at the end of the day and all, and he's walking up to the house. It was a well researched scene and this is not even what the scene was about. It's just something that I noticed. The moms were all grouped together chatting in one person's front yard and they were all smoking as they would be in the 50s and kids were running everywhere. And I like had this pain in my chest when I saw it because it reminded me of how lonely I was and how parenting must've been so differently back then. Different back then. And not just that, I think moms are more lonely now. It's that kids are more lonely now in a way too, right. Because we are very isolated inside the homes and yeah, I just quite, I really quite crave are return to that and I feel like we've kind of found it in our new neighborhood and like it's just easier and simpler and yeah. Allana: I think, I think once we realize that what children do naturally is, there's generally a reason behind it. We don't tend to trust kids in what they're doing. We want to, we think we know better, but children know what they need and they'll do what they need. And once you can start to trust your kids that way and realize that what they're doing, whether it's a behavior, even if it's a maladaptive behavior, even if it's like what they're playing, if it makes no sense to you, children are doing things for a reason. There is never a child that is doing something just because they feel like it. Like there's never not a reason behind something that a child does. And so when you can trust that and trust that your child is doing what they need, it's so freeing for us. And it does allow us to go back to that, you know, children are allowed to be rambunctious. They're allowed to get hurt, they're allowed to be unsupervised. And you know, people keep thinking, "Oh well, you know, lots of, you know, the good old days didn't exist." Well, no, but we can bring them back in a modern way that is safe and comfortable for everybody. It doesn't have to be the way it was in the fifties for it to be beneficial. Jen: Right. We have tape and our GPSes. Allana: Exactly. That was a hard thing for me because I was like, I have a Bluetooth tracker on every, on my keys and my wallet. Even on my car. I have ev

Do you ever feel like you would be more successful in your journey to better health if you had more willpower and motivation? Does it feel like everyone else has more willpower and motivation than you? Does it seem like all these changes are more difficult for you than other people? You’re going to want to tune in for this conversation with Annie and Jen for the truth about willpower, motivation and what action you can take to feel more successful.   What you’ll hear in this episode: The definition of willpower How decision fatigue impacts the quality of choices we make What’s the difference between motivation and willpower? How preparation sets you up for success Meal planning - why it can be helpful What to do when you can’t rely on motivation and willpower How waiting for motivation gets in the way of change that matters to us The magic in boredom The Habit Hangover - what is it? What keeps successful people going What a study of soda and water in a hospital teaches us about habits How to curate your environment for success   Resources: Atomic Habits by James Clear 53: Secrets From The Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann Secrets From The Eating Lab Arms Like Annie Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy and confident in their bodies, on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Welcome to Balance365 Life radio. Have you ever felt like if you just had more willpower, self control or motivation, you would finally be able to reach your goals? We get it. We hear this a lot and it's no wonder. The diet and fitness industry have led us to believe that willpower and control are characteristics of driven, successful, healthy individuals. And if we just had more, we wouldn't struggle. But is that all we need? Do we really just need more self control? And if so, how do I get it? Cause sign me up! On today's episode, Jen and I dive into the theories and the truth behind willpower, motivation and self control and offer tried and true practical strategies to help you stay on track with your goals even when you're just not feeling up to it. And by the way, if you want to continue this discussion on willpower, motivation, and self control, we invite you to join our free private Facebook group. Healthy Habits, Happy Moms. See you on the inside. Jen, how are you? Jen: Good, how are you? Annie: I'm great. We are talking about willpower and motivation today, which is something that comes up so frequently in our community. Like how do I get more motivation? How do I get more willpower? Right? We hear this a lot. Jen: Yeah and everywhere, right? Even the messages we get out of the fitness industry talks about getting motivated and having more willpower. And sometimes those phrases are used in a way that can feel really hurtful, right? Like you're doing something wrong and everybody else, everybody else around you seems to be very motivated and have a lot of willpower and you feel like it's something you lack. Annie: Right? And if you just had that, if you had willpower and determination and motivation and self discipline, then you could achieve anything. Jen: Right? And how many times have we heard, "I just have no willpower and that's my downfall. No willpower." Annie: Right? Yeah. And so we've done a fair amount of investigation into what really is behind willpower, what's behind motivation, what's behind self discipline? Do you really just need more of it? Because that is the message. Like you said, that we've been sold by the fitness industry that like, "Hey, if you just stick to this thing, if you can just have enough self discipline and motivation to stick to this plan, then you'll achieve your goals." And so then that becomes a way in which people feel like they're feeling like, "Oh, I did this." Like you said, "I'm wrong. I'm a failure. I'm lacking in this element of my life and everyone else is doing it. And I'm not." And is there any truth behind that? And I think what we're going to share today might surprise some people. Jen: Yes. Annie: Foreshadowing. Jen: Yes. Annie: And I want to say, like, you've done a lot of writing on this too because a lot of this is in the first phase of our Balance365 programming called Diet Deprogramming. Jen: Yes. Yeah. Annie: And that's the phase in which we kind of challenge, not kind of, we challenge some of the beliefs that you might hold sold to you by the diet and fitness industry, right? Jen: Yes. And the science around willpower and motivation is very heavy. And so I think today we're going to try talk about it in less scientific but more practical terms. Annie: Yeah. Jen: That make sense to everyone. And they can implement in their lives immediately. Annie: Well, yeah, I mean, we're not researchers! Jen: That's the goal! Annie: I mean, I like to think that I'm pretty smart, but definitely not researcher level. Okay. So let's start with the definition of willpower. Let's just get really clear on that. And the definition of willpower is the ability to exert control and resist impulses. And the truth is that we all have varying degrees of willpower. And on one end of the spectrum you'll have people with almost perfect willpower. And on the other end of the spectrum, you'll have people with almost no willpower. And the vast majority of us are- Jen: Somewhere in the middle. Annie: And like Jen said, there have been a lot of studies done on willpower and a lot of theories and it's kind of an ongoing process and you might find some that kind of disagree with each other. So like Jen said, we're just trying to give you more practical advice on how you can reach your goals without maybe relying on willpower and what is clear is that one of our mentors, Steven Michael Ledbetter, he is an expert in the science of human behavior. It's said that people reporting high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. And do you want to give us that marriage example that you share in Diet deprogramming? Can you walk us through that and so we can see what Steven Michael Ledbetter says applies to real life. Jen: Okay. So yes. So, you had just talked about how people who have high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. So this might include having to make many small decisions or choose between similar options all day long, and so what this, what we talk about in diet deprogramming as we compare two people. We've got a stay at home dad and a working mom and I put out this situation where a working mom, she gets up early kind of before anyone else is awake and she has some quiet time, has her breakfast and then she dashes out the door and on her way out she grabs her gym bag, which is packed and ready to go right by the door and she heads up the door for work. Her day is, you know, maybe not a super high stress job. She has some responsibility, but it's not super high stress. Her lunch breaks are always scheduled. She goes to the gym on her lunch breaks. It's a automatic habit and then she returned home around 5:30, six o'clock. Meanwhile, stay at home dad. This is my dream life. That's why I use this as an example. He wakes up tired because he's been up with maybe a toddler a couple of times in the night. He wakes up to lots of noise too, maybe a baby and a toddler crying "Breakfast!" And immediately he's going, "What am I going to feed these kids for breakfast?" And gulping back coffee and then trying to get those kids dressed because they have an appointment at 10 o'clock and then trying to get himself dressed. And it's just the crazy, right? I think we've all been there. Annie: That sounds familiar. Jen: Yes. And then just getting those kids out the door getting, and then one of them saying they got to poop. So then coming back in to change a diaper, like just like madness constantly. Right. And despite his best intentions to do a workout during nap time that afternoon, he is just so mentally fatigued from everything that happened between 8:00 AM and 1:00 PM that by the time the afternoon hits scrolling Facebook and the couch have won him over. And then of course the afternoon to get up from their naps. Similar stuff, making dinner, just that whole crazy and working wife gets home at 5:30 and dinner is almost ready and they sit down for a nice family dinner. They get the kids to bed that night. They go to unwind on the couch. They might share a bag of chips and working Susie goes to bed at a reasonable hour. But stay at home husband is just mentally fatigued, is so sick of being around kids. This is the only time he has in a day to not be with kids and he ends up staying up til midnight like he does every single night. Just hoarding those hours for himself and that might lead to more chips, maybe a beer, watching TV. Then he goes to bed around midnight and it starts again the next day. And so this example I think is typical of what might be happening in a lot of people's households is, you, I don't want to say typical. I'll say it was typical for me for a long time. I don't know if it was typical for you, Annie, but and I would say that even though my partner had taken on the responsibility of earning and that was an enormous responsibility, I felt like my life was chaos, very hard to find a routine when my kids were all little, little. I had three kids under four and it was just that I felt like my mental energy was just, just chipped away at all day long. Just all those little decisions you have to make dealing with unreasonable little kids all day. And it was very hard for me to get the physical or mental energy together. And then it's a downward cycle, right? Like then you have staying up late then broken sleep, can't get up in the morning, can't get going. And you know, we know that spiral, right? Making not so great food choices. Annie: Yeah. it's hard to make great choices when you're exhausted, when you're mentally and maybe even physically fatigued, you're kind of not in a prime position to make a good choice. And the mental fatigue that comes with a long day of decision making, whether it be you, Jen, when you were staying at home or the husband that we described in the last situation, the long day of decision making chips away at your energy and your willpower. So you have the contrast of the working mom who didn't have to make a lot of choices or maybe she made those choices ahead of time. So when she was fatigued- Jen: Right? So she packed her lunch, you know, she packs her lunch the night before, packs her gym bag. Doesn't have to think about those things. And maybe, you know, I think about my husband when he would go to work, there were lots of decisions that needed to be made and he did work in a high pressure environment, but he had assistants, receptionists, you know, like there was a lot of people pushing the ball forward with him, and yeah, so, and I don't want to like create this comparison game. I just might help with conversations between partners or just reflection, right? And so yeah, like, “Wow, how can I reduce the amount of decisions I have to make in a day?” Because what we know is all those decisions is actually contributing big time to your mental fatigue. Annie: Right? And so that's why we talk a lot about things like habits. So when you walk to the fridge, you have your, maybe your lunch for the week, you know, you've got all your power bowls. That's why our power bowl challenge was so successful and we loved it so much is because you don't have to then think at 12 o'clock when you're already starving and like, "Oh gosh, what am I gonna eat for lunch now? And do I want to cook something? Do I want to go grab something?" Because convenience wins. We know that over and over and over again, that whatever is most readily available will likely win out, which we'll talk about how your environment impacts your habits in just a little bit. But essentially what this boils down to in real life that this means, although it may appear that some people have higher levels of willpower than you do, it's probably they've just have just less mental energy expended during the day on large or small decisions. Jen: Right. So that may mean they have less decisions to make, or it may mean that they have habits in place so that they are not making those decisions, right? So you know, if you've listened to our podcast for a long time, you'll know exactly what that means. But if you're new to our podcast, it's sort of how when I open up my phone each time, I don't have to think about what my passcode is to get in, right? But when you go to change your password, you put in your old code, you're like, and then you have put it in again, and then you put it in again. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh yeah, I changed my passcode." So that's just an example of where energy is expended in one little way, right? Until that new habit is formed and then it takes no energy for you to do that. Or I was on another podcast, a couple months ago and a farm podcast actually. And, I said to the host, I was trying to explain habits and I said, "What happens when somebody moves the silverware drawer?" And the host, the a male host, Rob, his name was, he goes, "10 years later, you're still reaching to get it out of the old drawer." And that's the thing, right? So habits, having habits set up, like packing your gym bag before bed, if that becomes a part of your night routine and then you don't have to think about it in the morning, "Oh, where's my pants? Where's my shoes? Where's?" Do you know what I mean? And so it's looking at it, you know, case by case. You think, well, these aren't big decisions. Like who cares? But it's actually adding up all those things through the course of a day where you're just like, "Ugh, brain done." Annie: Yeah. Like, you know, the term that comes to mind is just this like exasperated. Like "I can't, I just can't. I can't, I can't." I think I've said that to my husband before like, "I can't make a choice right now. I just need you to do this for me. Like I don't even care." And then he picked somewhere to eat and I'm like "But not that place." Self control is similar. In that when scientists analyze people who appear to have great self control, similarly, it's largely because they're better at structuring their lives in a way that does not require heroic willpower and self control. And in short, they spend time, less time in tempting situations. And that was pulled from also one of our mentors, James Clear, his new book, Atomic Habits, which if you haven't checked out that book or his blog posts they're great. He's hopefully similar to us really applies information to your lives really easily. Jen: Yeah. But ps, he may not know he's a mentor of ours. We may just be like silent mentees Annie: It's not like we're buddies. Jen: Annie, you took his course a couple of years ago. Annie: Yeah, I did. Jen: Yeah. Anyways- Annie: Maybe admirers. Jen: Admirers of his work. Stalkers? Annie: Creepers. Jen: We're not quite at that level. But and we also talked about this in our podcast with doctor Tracey Mann. She's actually done a lot of research on willpower and she talked about it in that podcast and what she had said is nobody has good willpower. You think, you know, nobody does, in different survey she's done when she asks people to rate their own willpower. Everybody scores themselves low on willpower. So nobody thinks they have good willpower. And this is just an excerpt from her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, which is another book we recommend all the time. "Humans were simply not meant to willfully resist food. We evolved through famines, hunting and gathering, eating whatever we could get when we could get it. We evolve to keep fat on our bones by eating food we see, not by resisting it? So is that a good segway into- Annie: Well, I think the takeaway is there, like you can take some of the pressure off yourself for not having like iron man or whatever, like discipline and willpower like, the truth is no one is like that. That's what we're trying to say is that people that you think have really good willpower have most likely, again, created their lives, created routine, created habits that make other options less tempting. They've made the choices that they want to make the most readily available, the easiest to choose, and the most obvious choice in their lives. Jen: Right? So instead of putting all this energy into kind of shaming yourself and getting down on yourself for not having perfect willpower and motivation, put your energy into what we know matters, which is curating your environment and setting yourself up for success, which I do almost every night with my nighttime routine, I kind of start getting things ready for the next day. Annie: Yeah. And motivation is also something that kind of goes, seems to go hand in hand with willpower. And we've kind of been using these terms thus far interchangeably, but motivation is actually our willingness to do things. And the thing about motivation is at times it can feel abundant. Like you have all the motivation and like, "Yes, we're going to do all the things." And then at other times it's like "I'm just so unmotivated, I can't, I can't do anything at all." Jen: Right. Annie: You've felt like that- Jen: Totally. Annie: You've felt that burst of motivation and I think the myth is, again, it goes back to that people that are achieving their goals or they're going to the gym five, six days a week and they're meal planning and their meal prepping and they're eating the foods that the meal plan and plan and they seem so disciplined also have unlimited sources of motivation. And that is not the case either. No one, no one is riding this motivation high all the time, every day. Jen: Even people who, say, prep meals in advance, I prep some or portion of food I'm usually on the weekends and that sets us up for success during the week, but by no means am I cooking and preparing all of my food. You sometimes see on Instagram, you know, like, people who, like, have all these dishes and they line them up and they post meal prep Sunday Hashtag motivation. Annie: It makes for a great photo. Jen: Yes. And they have all their breakfast, all their lunches, all their snacks, all their suppers lined up for the week. Which, honestly, all the power to you. Some weeks I probably could use that. I just don't have time on the weekends to do in depth preps like that. But I do perhaps some and I do meal plan so I know what's coming. That's when meal planning can be great because it takes away the mental energy of deciding what you're going to eat. But what I will say is even the stuff I do prep, I'm not, I don't always feel motivated to eat it. I'm not like, "Oh, can't wait!" I'm like- Annie: Yes! Amen! Jen: And I think even the people who prep all those meals in advance, they might seem really motivated on Sunday cause they've got all these prep meals, but I bet you by Thursday they're eating the same lunch that they had all week and they're just like not thrilled. Or drowning in BBQ sauce. Annie: I can't tell you how many times I have and this is something I would have done back in my deep dieting years is, you know, this on again off again thing, I would like clean out the kitchen. I'd have this like motivation usually triggered, I mean, let's just revisit the diet cycle here. Triggered by shame. I'd see a photo of myself and like, "Ugh, got to lose 10 pounds!" Clean up the kitchen. I'd run to the grocery store, buy all this produce and lean meats and veggies and fruits and like I'm going to do this so well this week. And then, like, come Thursday I'm like, "Ugh!" Because you get this burst of motivation and then to, like, continue to the follow through is, like, that's much harder and when you rely on motivation to do the things that's bound to happen. That's exactly what we would expect from a human because again, no one is riding this high of motivation, seven days a week, 24, seven hours, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's unreliable and it's fleeting. It comes and it goes, it ebbs and flows. It rises throughout the month, throughout the day. And, like, I notice it, my motivation rises and falls throughout the day and even in particular to do certain things. If I wanted to have motivation to go work out I know that it needs to be mid to late morning. If I wait until 6:00 PM to work out, it's probably not going to happen. Maybe some days, but probably not. Vice versa, if I try to work late at night, I can't work late at night. It needs to be like three, four o'clock seems to be like a really productive hour for me. So if I have something important to do, like, you know, kind of stack your day to where the motivation fits that task. Jen: Which can work. For me, the only realistic time I have to work out is super early in the morning. So I get up at 5:30 and I work out from six till seven three days a week. And I am never, ever, ever hopping out of bed excited, like "I can't freaking wait." It's just become a habit and which can lead us into a discussion about values and goals. But ultimately for me,I made a commitment to do this to my future self. So when I get up in the morning, I just don't let myself question it. Obviously if I've had a rough sleep or a sick kid, I will not get up at that hour. You know, I have grace with myself and I'm realistic. But yeah, I'm never motivated to do it. It's just simply become a habit for me. And something that's very important to me. Annie: I think that's a common mistake people make is they're sitting around waiting for motivation to strike them like lightning from the sky and as a result they're at the mercy of motivation. So they can't take action until they're motivated. That's like this belief that they have in their head. But you can also flip it and action leads to motivation, which research has proven as well. And I think just anecdotally, you would probably say the same thing. I would say the same thing. Like you get that first set in, you get your workout clothes on, you get into the gym and you start the workout and it's like, "Okay, I can do this now." And then you'll do it, and then it snowballs and it's like, and then you retrain your habit loop in your brain, like, I get up, I do the thing. The reward is I feel good. I may be more productive during the day, in the long term I'm improving my health, I'm increasing my strength, I'm learning new skills and then that's how habits are formed. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Annie: Without relying on motivation. Jen: Right. Yeah. Annie: Boom. Jen: And that's why a lot of people give up on workout routines, right? Like how many people start something new and within three weeks they're done because they just, they lose, they're super motivated at the beginning, everybody is, when I started this new lifting program, well, its Arms Like Annie, it's your program, Annie,, I was very motivated but that really it doesn't last. And then you, then it's boring because then you're just putting in reps. But that's actually where the magic starts happening, I think, is actually those boring stages when you don't want to, that's when you're starting to, you're not relying on motivation anymore and you are truly training in that habit cycle and you might feel yourself resisting and trying to go back to old habits. Right? When my old habit is to sleep till seven, not get up at 5:30. But that's truly when the magic starts happening. That's truly around even where the tipping point starts happening, right, into forming a habit. And so that's why it's important to push through but not push through in the way that push through and find more motivation. It's like just push through like you're there, like this is, this is where it's going to happen. Annie: So that's, inside Balance365, that's something we call the Habit Hangover often. Like, we see that it's pretty common. Like, because people- Jen: This isn't fun anymore. Annie: Yeah. When they're motivated and they're like, "Okay, now this is just hard work and I'm not near as excited as I was when I started three weeks ago. And the newness, the shininess has worn off. Jen: Yes, new and shiny is gone. Yes. Annie: And again, that's another vote that we've said it before on the podcast. We say it all the time in our community. That's why we start habits small because when that motivation falters and it will then you're not relying, you don't need like this Richard Simmons level of willpower and motivation to do the thing that you're supposed to be doing if you start a little bit smaller versus like doing all the things at once. Jen: Yeah. So actually because I had struggled with, we moved a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, I guess, and since we moved, I really struggled with my workout habit. So it was kind of last fall sometime where I just epiphany, "Look, this isn't working. I'm not being consistent because I haven't been able to find a time in my day that this really works for me. It definitely does not work at night for me." And that's something I just kept trying to do, trying to do, trying to do and then finally I was like, "Look, you're not going to work out at night." And so that's when I started getting up in the mornings and I actually kind of had the epiphany that's really what time works best for me and I had to start going to bed earlier and I started with twice a week actually. I was doing Mondays and Wednesdays only and that felt very realistic for me. And when things did get hard, I would say, "You know what? It's just two mornings a week. Like you, you can do this. It is just two mornings a week." And then when I felt ready, which is about two months after I started, I added in Friday mornings and now that's going really good. And we're going to add in a cardio, just a cardio session. And yeah. So, and that's just, that's really how habits form, right? Like that's so boring. But you scale up as you solidify new skills and habits, then you can add in something else and something else. And then all of a sudden you're living it and you're going, "Oh, this is happening and I'm doing the thing." Annie: I'm doing the thing. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Or the things. So to recap thus far, willpower and motivation is not what keeps most "successful people" going. It's their habits. And the next kind of layer I want to add on to that, which we've already touched on, is that your habits are highly influenced by your environment. And I want to share this study, I think we've shared it before, but really quickly, this is again, something inspired from James Clear shared before, but they did this study of soda and water consumption in hospital. And what they did was they let people choose their soda and their water consumption for two weeks, three weeks, whatever. They collected the data on the sales of each. After three weeks they added, they didn't change anything about the soda. They added water to different locations, more convenient locations throughout the hospital cafeteria. So again, all they changed was made water more available. And as a result, water sales increased and soda sales decreased. And I think that's just such a simple example of how impactful your environment can be on your habits. They didn't say, they didn't promote or push the water or give any marketing about how soda was "bad or harmful" and water was better. They simply just offered it in more places. And people are like, "Oh, there's water. I'll take a water now." Jen: Totally. So in my house, Oh boy, we talk about this all the time. My veggie tray. Annie: Yes. Yes. Jen: So fruits and vegetables are often things that people struggle to get enough in. And you have to make them convenient and part of your environment. One way I do this is one, I buy bagged salads and I just kind of have no shame around that when my salads are pretty much prepped for me, I'm eating them and enjoy them, but I am just not going to start from scratch every single meal to create a salad. That's a lot of work. And or maybe, maybe it's not a lot, but it's too much for me. And a second is I make a veggie tray every, that's kind of part of my meal prep. On Sundays I make a Veggie tray. I've got like an old one of those old Tupperware ones. I make a Veggie tray and then I'm usually restocking it by Wednesday morning. And I bring that out for most meals, lunch and supper for me, my kids. And I also pull from it when I'm packing lunches for my kids school lunches. And I keep all our fruit, most of our fruit, if it doesn't have to be refrigerated, I have it on the counter in just a little fruit basket and we go through fruit like crazy around here. But I have made fruits and vegetables very, I have put my energy into making those two things very accessible and then I don't have to think about it during the week. It just happens naturally. And that's what we're trying to say here, right? Annie: Yeah. And I think the other aspect to that is visual cues are really, really important. So because when you open up your fridge, you see the Veggie tray and it's, like, there. Jen: It's there. It's right at eye level. It's not tucked, you know, it's not tucked away. It's not in the back. I don't have my vegetables tucked in the drawers and the bottom. It's like right there. Annie: Exactly. I even remember you talking about, which you've seen my Instagram videos, you know, my kitchen also houses my dumbbells and kettlebells. But, but you did the same thing too, you were like, look, I'm not getting in a lot of movement and I want to, and it would be simple to incorporate some kettlebell swings, but in order for me to actually do that, I need the kettle bell in my kitchen. So every time you walked by it, so you ended up doing, you know what, 10 swings a handful of times throughout the day. Jen: Yeah. So yeah, so I have a big round Moved Nat yoga mat off my kitchen island. There's kind of just a space off my kitchen that's just blank space. I know not everybody will be able to find a space, but there's other ways to do it. But anyway, sorry, I have this huge round Yoga Mat. The boys use it to sit and play cars on or they sit on it and read. But I also use it, like, it's just there. So if I feel like doing some movement, whether it's getting on the ground and doing some glute bridges or pushups or whatever, my mat is right there and I don't have to go on my gross floors. But, and then I also have just, you know, I have my garage gym,, but I have one kettlebell that I keep up in the kitchen and it's kind of on the lighter end, but I can do, you know, I can do lots of things with it in my kitchen and I, yeah, I see it and I'll do it right. Which I know it sounds silly, but if I'm waiting for water to boil on the stove, I'll go over and do a couple of kettlebell swings or a couple of pushups or, yeah. And I mean that just works well for me. I'm not saying it'll work for everybody, but it just works well for me. And other people might find benefit in having a yoga mat in their living room and some weights, you know, beside the TV. And so when they're watching TV, they might just feel like, yeah, I could get down on the floor, do some bridges, some presses, some, you know, some yoga stretches, anything, right? Because if it's, but it's just about looking at your environment and say, how does my environment support more of what I want in it? And then on the flip side of that, which we talked about with Traci Mann, is how can I put small barriers in place between me and things that I want less of in my life. So for me, I keep, like all our nuts and seeds and chocolates, like really high calorie, high energy foods. I keep a lot of those above my fridge in the cupboard and then I don't, I can't see them. There's no visual cue to eat them. I'm having them when I want them, right. When I think of them and want them and reach for them. Annie: Right. And then you know that if I want them it's because I actually want them, not just because I see them and then I want them, which is like marketing 101. We think that we're in control. We think we're like making the choice. But a lot of times it's like the power of suggestion. Like I've said it before, my kids don't want the Goldfish at Target until they see the Goldfish at Target, at the end cap. Jen: It's why grocery stores put all that stuff right at the checkout. Right? All the trashy magazines, all the indulgent foods, like the chocolate bars, they put it there because they know you're going to be standing there awhile, waiting at the checkout and you're just more likely to grab it the longer you're standing there. Annie: Right. And the other thing about habits too is that, habits and your environment is that we often have a set of habits per the location we're in. So if you think about the habits you have in your bedroom, the habits you have in your kitchen, the habits you have in your, in the gym, the habits you have in a grocery store, you probably grocery shop the same path every time. You have your routine, right? You like grab your produce, you move to meats or whatever it is. Same thing with the gym. You walk to the same space every time, you put your bag down, you go use the same equipment, you probably have a favorite treadmill or a favorite squat rack or whatever. The thing is important to know is that it can be easier to change habits in a new environment. So if possible, like I'm not saying go out and buy a new house, but could you rearrange your furniture so maybe, or take a TV out of your bedroom or rearrange your furniture so it's not facing the TV and it's more conducive to reading or whatever habit you're trying to change. Or put a kettle bell in your kitchen or go to a different grocery store. Like would your shopping- Jen: Rearrange up cupboards or, yeah. Annie: Yeah. You don't have to like completely like burn everything down and start from new. But can you think outside the box of how your environment shapes your habits? Like even, James Clear, and I'm guilty of this, was talking about your environment should have a purpose. So, you know, he was working at his kitchen island. But he also wants to eat in his kitchen. And then it's kind of like, there was no boundary. That's like, now I'm working, now I'm eating, I'm eating and I'm working. So he created a new small environment out of his bedroom for an office or whatever. And like that's his work. When he's working, when he's there, he's working. When he's in his kitchen, he's eating and you know, on and so forth. So- Jen: I just- Annie: Go ahead. Jen: I posted about this in Balance365 a couple of months ago. I totally had that epiphany in the wintertime when it was chilly out, I started working at my kitchen table near the fire instead of my office. And I started snacking more and more and more. And then one day I realized, it's because you're just staring at the kitchen all day. You're just staring at the cupboard, staring at the kitchen and you're just triggered to go grab something to eat. Right. And so I moved back down to my office and that problem is gone. I'm not snacking between breakfast and lunch anymore. Annie: Right. Jen: And it's crazy, right? You think, you know, you think this comes to motivation and willpower again, but you just can't believe how much your environment influences your choices. Right. And again, my goal is not perfection. My goal is balance. So I'm not like saying take all the treats out of your cupboards and all of that. I feel like I have an appropriate amount of treats in my house stored in a space that aligns with the goal I have of balance, right. Annie: Right, right. Yeah. And I think that it's, you know what all of this really boils down to for me and I'm assuming for you is that self control and willpower and motivation can work in the short term. They can be a great short term strategy. And I wouldn't want anyone listening to this to think I'm super motivated, but I somehow have to like contain that motivation or pull back from that motivation because I don't want to like misstep or whatever. Like, no, if you're motivated to do something, you can follow that. Like you can explore it. It's not that it's a bad thing, but the point is, is that a better, in our experience, a better long term strategy for reaching goals boils down to habits and environment. Jen: Right. I don't, sometimes I feel super motivated to go for an extra run or walk or I do an extra workout. But another thing I just want to note is you don't want to, when you're feeling motivated, that's not where you want to set your bar, right? Like you don't, you know, some weeks I have my baseline habits, say, like my three workouts a week and that's just kinda my minimum at this point. I miss the odd one. We just took two weeks off, actually, me and my workout partner and that's all good. We're right back to our three times a week. But the odd time when I feel like an extra run or I feel like an extra workout, I don't bring my bar up there. I don't say, okay, now I'm at five times. I just, you know what, I recognize it as a week, even a month sometimes where I had a burst of energy and I utilize that and that felt great, but I don't bring my bar up there. I just recognize. Annie: Yes. It was just a bonus. Jen: I just feel motivated. Yeah. It was just a bonus. Annie: Yeah. That's great. This is good. I hope that this helps clear up a lot of the questions that we get about willpower and also helps reduce some of the shame and guilt that people might be experiencing if they don't feel those emotions or if they don't feel like they have those traits or those characteristics innately, and then, because I think I, you know, just on a personal note, I think people think that I am motivated, for example, to go to the gym three, four times a week or five times a week. I'm not. Like Jen said, like, there's days where I'm like, "Eh, I don't know." Like I'll text my girlfriend, it's like, "I need you to talk me into this." Jen: Right. Annie: Or "This is workout really doesn't look fun. I don't think I can do this," but it falls back to habits. I dropped my kids off at school, I'd go to the gym and if I can just get my kids in the car, I know that that trigger loop or that habit loop has started with my trigger of getting kids to school. And I know the rest will just fall in naturally thanks to habits. Jen: Yes. And I do think it is really key too, I don't think a lot of people do this and I think it's such a great thing to do is to stop, pause, especially if you've gone through any life transition, like had a baby, changed jobs, moved and think about where you can decrease the decisions you're making in the day. So my nighttime routine consists of, you know, washing my face, brushing my teeth, getting my workout clothes out, putting them right beside the bathroom sink so that when I get up in the morning, the first thing I do is get dressed. I get my coffee pot out, the coffee out. So you know, so just in the mornings, I just, I don't have to think. I just get up and do, and then I head down to the gym. Annie: That's great. Awesome. If you want to continue the conversation on willpower and motivation, come to our free private Facebook group with our Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. Jen, Lauren and I are in there frequently along with some really, really rad community members that have been around for a while and have great contributions, so we hope to see in there. Jen: Yes. Annie: Alright, thanks, Jen. Jen: Bye, Annie. Annie: Bye. Bye. This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.  

  Parenting can be exhausting, especially if your kids aren’t sleeping well. How do you help your kids get the sleep they need? How do you get the sleep you need? Jen, Annie and Lauren discuss these important questions with Dr. Craig Canapari to get listeners and their kids on their way to better sleep. What you’ll hear in this episode: Misconceptions about sleep training The role of mom shame in the decision to sleep train or not Harnessing habits for better sleep in your kids Sleep as a buffer for toxic stress Sleep debt - what is it? All or something - the value of incremental gains in your sleep habit At what age should you sleep train? Social jetlag: what is it and what does it have to do with sleep? How to shift your sleep schedule Dividing sleep responsibilities Sleep routine in blended families or single parent households Screens in the bedroom - why you should unplug How limiting screen time can improve your sleep How to help your kid stay asleep or in bed longer How sleep impacts weight Resources: Atomic Habits by James Clear It's Never Too Late to Sleep Train: The Low Stress Way To High Quality Seep for Babies, Kids and Parents - Link when available Dr. Craig Canapari’s Blog Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balanced 365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional well-being with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to share with you a really sweet review left for us on iTunes. SPagan84 says, "I beg of you. This is what female need to hear. Annie, Jen and Lauren cover a lot of freaking rad topics. Women empowering one another, women evolving to be the best version of themselves and women learning to love themselves. This podcast is so much more than fitness and nutrition though they have a no bs approach to diet and fitness that applies to real life. I love, love, love the Balance365 life." Thank you so much to all of you who have taken the time to leave us a review on iTunes, we read every single one of them and they all mean so much to us. Alright, let me tell you about today's guest. Annie: Dr. Canapari is the director of the Yale Pediatric Sleep Center, father and author of his first book, It's Never Too Late to Sleep train. Shortly after becoming a father, Dr. Canapari realized that all of his years of 36 hour hospital shifts didn't come close to preparing him for the sleep deprivation that comes with parenthood. Inside his book, Dr. Canapari helps parents harness the power of habit to chart a clear path to high quality sleep for them and their children. Sound familiar? On today's episode, Lauren, Jen, Dr. Canapari and myself discussed the importance of quality sleep for not just your children, but why it's so important for parents and caregivers as well. Plus he shares a ton of great insight on to how to improve sleep for your whole family regardless of age. Enjoy! Annie: Welcome to the show. We have a special guest today. Jen, do you want to tell us how you met our special guest? Jen: Sure. So this is Dr. Craig Canapari. Hello. I found his blog, it would be over four years ago now because I had, my third son was a nightmare between the hours of 7:00 PM and 7:00 AM and I had never experienced this before. My first two were natural sleepers and I was going out of my mind by the time he was one. And so one night it was late and I was googling anything and I came across his blog and I got some answers to my questions and I've followed him ever since. Annie: Doctor, welcome to the show. Dr. Canapari: Thank you for having me. And that's very kind. I wish I could actually see what time of night people are reading my site relative to time zone because I suspect it's probably mostly in the middle of the night. Jen: It was probably 1130 for me and I was like crying and I just, yeah, so now I refer people to your site all the time as, like, an evidence based resource for um, parents whose children have sleep issues, which it's hard, you know, there's just so much. One thing that I will tell you that I appreciate and that I think a lot of our listeners might be able to listen to is that there's a lot of, I don't know if you want to call it pseudoscience or opinion based sleep recommendations online. And when I had my third, um, we lived in New Zealand and I, you know, they just, what I'll say is I was very wrapped up in the natural birthing community by the time I had my third and sleep training is just like "N-O" in that community. Like, your kid's going to get brain damage, they'll have neurological issues, attachment issues for life. Jen: And so I really thought if I tried to intervene in my child sleep that I was going to give my child brain damage. And what happened is I pretty much got brain damage from that year of trying to deal with him. And I mean I literally felt crazy where I, when he was one, I pretty much had a nervous breakdown and was in therapy and I was a mess. And it was, like, my marriage was falling apart, everything. And it was all because of, I wouldn't say all, you know, nothing happens in a vacuum, but in hindsight now we're four or five years later, I'm like, that year of sleep was like, it made me crazy, like crazy and this stuff is serious and people don't take sleep seriously enough. But like there are some women and men out there that are really, really suffering and they don't know where to turn. Dr. Canapari: Well, I think there's a, there's a lot of good points in what you're saying and the first thing is that I think that like sleep and bedtime are really personal things for people and, it's a totally separate issue, but you know, in our town, and you know, I've been involved locally, regionally, nationally with sleep issues for teenagers and trying to get more humane start times for teenagers. And there's something personal about bedtime and what happens in your house at night. So people aren't always open to advice. And I think there's also the thread of, it generates a lot of strong feelings for people and people have very strong opinions that aren't always grounded in facts. And I always laugh about the the idea that crying can damage your child's brain. I mean, my kids used to cry all the time over like the dumbest stuff. Dr. Canapari: Like in the book I talk about my kid was four and found an ant on his donut and he was crying. And I'm like, I don't think it damaged his brain, you know? But I think we're also a little bit more vulnerable when we're sleep deprived that things that are, you know, if you stop for a moment, you're like, you know, I think it's reasonable for me to expect that I get a decent night of sleep my child does. But you're more vulnerable to kind of this judgment that can kind of come in and, and you guys know all this as moms too, I think that the whole sort of mommy shaming thing is real. Jen: Yes. Yes. Dr. Canapari: You know, my boys were both born via c sections and the first one was cause he, you know, he couldn't be born any other way. And I remember my wife talking about, you know, some people would say things that almost made her feel like she hadn't, you know, delivered my son. Jen: Right. Like, are you mom enough? Dr. Canapari: Yeah, totally. Totally, totally. So I think that it's not that everyone has to sleep train their child. It's not that you have to use cry it out sleep training and it's also that sleep training has such a negative valence in our society. People are like, "Oh, it's just cry it out. And it's just this thing that a lot of people view very negatively." There are lots of things you can do that don't necessarily mean that your child is going to cry more. Jen: They are not talking about it publicly, but we're all googling it. It's one of those, like, it's become one of those secret underground things that we all want to do but we are afraid to admit it. I experienced this big time. I formula fed my first baby and um, that was horrific. I had a woman come up to me in the grocery store and ask me why he was drinking from a bottle. And it's just, yeah, like you, I've had three children and my youngest is now five and in hindsight I wish I could take all that pain away for new moms. Like I wish I could say, "Hey, it doesn't matter. Like, it really doesn't matter. Once they get up and going, you know, it's just, I can't tell the difference between my three kids who I sleep trained, who I didn't, who had formula, who had breast milk, who was born by epidural, who was born naturally. They're just, just choices that we make." Dr. Canapari: And especially with the first child, it's so fraught. I remember one of the biggest fights that my wife and I ever had was about what stroller we were going to get. Right. You know, and, and, and you know, I wanted of course this really stupid technological thing that she didn't want. And with the second kid, you're like, "I want the cheapest stroller that I can fit in my car really easily." It's just, you get a little bit more perspective, but I think you're totally right. Like as a parent, you kind of need to give yourself permission to be like, you know what, I'm going to do something a little bit different from some of my peers and it's okay. Jen: Yeah. In the end, you, you need to be okay. And I guess that was my greatest lesson from having postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and like, basically a nervous breakdown as I just talked about. I was not okay. In my pursuit of trying to find what was "the best" way to raise a child, I personally was not okay. And now I just believe so wholeheartedly that children need their parents to be okay and we'll and to be okay we'll all kind of make different choices in that pursuit. Dr. Canapari: I think that things have kind of pendulumed away from self care for parents, especially moms. And, you know, when the term attachment parenting was coined, it was in the 60s, and back then people were like, "Oh, if your child's crying, you should ignore them because otherwise you're going to spoil them." And clearly that's not true, right? It's natural to comfort your child. And, you know, there was a, uh, a lot of pioneering work done by a woman named Mary Ainsworth that sort of showed that, well, that's not correct and it's okay to comfort your child and be emotionally available for your child. But when we think of attachment parenting now, we often think of, you know, Sears and everything that's kind of come out of Sears' work. And I agree with a lot of what Sears said is that like, you know, you should be close to your child and it's valuable to make time if you would like to breastfeed to make that a priority. But, you know, there's little room there for the needs of parents, especially moms in that conversation these days. And you know, I tell parents all the time, like, you know, it's okay to fix this for the reason that you're falling apart. Like, you're a better parent if you're not super sleep deprived and your child will benefit. You know, it's totally, you know, and that's kind of my job. They know it's the case, but they almost need someone to give them permission to make some changes. Jen: And there's not, and you know there's like zero to 60 and then there's like level one, level two. Do you know what I mean? Like not, and I think it's scary to go from zero to 60 but you don't have to necessarily go to 60. There's interventions that can start here where you're comfortable and then you can assess from there. Dr. Canapari: Totally. It's not a binary thing that like you're doing everything or nothing or they're perfect or it's terrible. It's usually somewhere in between. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And we all know as parents, you figure some things out, you get your kids sleep the way they're going, and then all of a sudden another kids waking up at night or they get a cold or it's never going to be perfect. Jen: Right. I feel like managing my kids sleep is like this ongoing thing that, you know, there's always something. So anyways, yeah, as long as we're all sleeping good enough, I'm okay. Dr. Canapari: That's my goal. Have you heard the whole a good enough mother? Donald Winnicott was this psychiatrist and pediatrician in England in the 60s and he coined the term "being the good enough mother." And it's just the idea is like if you love your child and you do your best to take care of them, they're going to turn out fine. You just need to be good enough. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And I, and I just love that idea. It's like, "Hey, look, it's not going to be perfect." And like so much of parenting now is, like, full contact and be like, I've got to get my two year old studying Mandarin or you know, they're not going to law school or something like that. And really it's just, you know, do your best. It's okay. Jen: Right. Annie: Doctor, before we get into some of the questions we have for you, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book? I feel very special. Your team sent me, an unofficial an uncorrected proof that's not yet for sale. So I feel like VIP having this book here- Dr. Canapari: It's full of typos. Annie: You know what, that's great because I'm the world's worst proofreader. Lauren and Jen- Jen: It makes us feel good enough. Dr. Canapari: I just went through, I think the final proof and I still found a bunch of stuff and I'm like, "Oh," I'm like, I can barely read it anymore. I've read it like a thousand times. Oh, I'm sorry. Go. Annie: I thought it was great. It's called, It's Never Too Late to Sleep Train: The Low Stress Way To High Quality Seep for Babies, Kids and Parents. And what I loved about it is that you have this little dedication right in the front of the book there to your wife and kids and it says "You're the reason I get out of bed in the morning, in the case of Teddy, often, literally." It's like you've lived this, like, it's not like you're just some doctor- Dr. Canapari: I've been in the trenches. Annie: Yeah. Which I appreciate. So can you tell us a little bit about the book? Like, when will it be for sale? Where can they find it? What's in it? Just give a little overview. Dr. Canapari: So the book is coming out in May 9th and you know, just to backtrack a little bit, I started writing stuff for parents online, in 2012, back when I was over at Mass General in Boston with the idea of that, my background was in pulmonology. I trained in sleep medicine as well, but I used to do sleep apnea research and the behavior stuff was kinda new to me and I was like, you know, I'm going to start writing these articles for parents and it's going to be my way to master this material as well and to have resources if someone's in the office and I don't have time to go through everything and be like your go to my website, this is exactly what I think is important. And, you know, as going through this over time and kind of learning how to do this as a parent and as a doctor, I realized there's a lot of great sleep books out there, but I generally felt like a lot of them are pretty long. Dr. Canapari: You know, I think Ferber's book, which is great, it's about 600 pages long and it covers things like narcolepsy in teenagers. And you know, if your one year old can't sleep, you probably don't care that much about that. And I also think that there's been a lot of new research since Weiss, Bluth and Ferber wrote their books that kind of, perhaps demystified this a little bit. And specifically looking at the psychology of habits, which is, you know, habits are such a hot phrase nowadays, right? There was the Charles Duhigg book, James Clear just came up with Atomic Habits. But just the idea of there is an underlying psychology that underlines all these automatic behaviors we have all the time. Right? Those fights we have with our kids, every day, that's a habitual behavior, right? Dr. Canapari: So if you understand how that works, you can maybe tweak those behaviors to, for lack of a better word, to kind of use the power of these automatic behaviors to help rather than hinder you. So in the book we talk about if you want to change your own habit, and I bet you guys, in terms of what you do, talk a lot about habits with your client. Jen: It's all we talk about. Lauren: I have James Clear's book, like, literally right next to me. Annie: Same. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, no, I heard it's great. I haven't read it yet, but I've followed his stuff for a long time. Jen: Yeah, he's good. Annie: He's great. Dr. Canapari: The difference is if you want to change a habit, you're going to change the behavior. You know, if we talk about the habit loop, you have a cue that triggers a behavior and you have a downstream consequence. And it loops around and around. Your child is not going to raise their hand and say, "Hey, you know, mom, you're super tired and I'm just going to stop getting up at 4:30 in the morning." Right? That's the behavior you want to change. So you have to think about what are the upstream things you can change and how can you change your own behavior in the way that you respond to what your child's doing to help to shape their behavior to what you want. So anyway, this book is my summary of the things that I've learned in my journey as a sleep doctor and as a parent. And, my specific focus is in a population that I think people don't focus on as much. Like there's a lot written about infancy and I think infant sleep training is actually really simple. Dr. Canapari: It's not easy, but it's simple. And I cover that in the book. But also what do you do if your child's a little bit older? What do you do in a toddler or an early school age child where the, when we think about sleep training, we may think about cry it out. That's not going to work in a three or four year old. You know, it might work, but it would be horrible for parent and child. So what are other ways that you can change a child's behavior that really just aren't so unpleasant or scary for parents and kids? Jen: The reason I found your blog was because my youngest son, no, this wasn't why I found your blog. I found your blog because of sleep aids, my son had a sleep aid and it was me. And, the second time I revisited your blog in detail that was helpful to me was that my youngest son has night terrors. And your, one of your sons had night terrors. Dr. Canapari: Oh yeah. And now he sleepwalks too. We were just on a vacation with his cousins in the middle of the night, we found him just sitting on the toilet with his pants down, but not awake. And I'm like, his cousins found this pretty amusing as did we, yeah, he's 11. He found it less funny but- Jen: Right. So yeah, I mean you really have been in the trenches and there isn't a lot of information once you move past the infant years. And so yeah, that was the second time your blog was very helpful to me, was seeing you had, you're not just talking about this, you had experienced night terrors with one of your sons and just the science around it and what, how you guys ended up dealing with it, which is now how I deal with it. And yeah, I mean that stuff is scary and very stressful for parents. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And I think that, in some of the things you guys have, with the topics today, just sort of talking about, sleep and sleep debt and I think of sleep as a, it's kind of a capstone skill for parents and families, right. If sleep is good, other things get easier. If sleep is bad, everything gets, everything gets worse. Jen: So would you call it a skill? Cause I noticed, you know, you're not calling it a habit, you're are calling it a skill. So would you say learning to sleep as a skill? Dr. Canapari: Well, I think yes. I think especially for, look, you said your two older children were good sleepers. Right? Jen: Fantastic. Dr. Canapari: And, it just kind of came naturally to them and we all have experienced this as parents. Like, you know, my older son is a great sleeper, but when he was little, he was a picky eater and every child is good at some things and bad at other things. So, like, I think some kids sleeping comes naturally to them. Like self soothing, sleeping through the night is very easy. Other children need to need to be taught. And the way we call, sleep training is the process, the term we use to describe teaching our children to sleep independently with our help, either falling asleep or staying asleep. And it's funny, some of the research, one of my colleagues is doing at Yale now, Monica Ordway is, we're looking at sleep as a buffer for toxic stress. Like, you know, stress is, we all know what stresses, right? A little bit of stress as good. You want to study for an exam, you need to be a little bit stressed to do it. But being chronically stressed is, it can really cause harm to health. Like when your son wasn't sleeping for a year- Jen: I ended up with a registered Dietitian who was amazing, but I had gone down the woo hole, which Lauren, my partner here pointed me out, with diet, but I mean I was breaking out so badly and I was like so inflamed and I thought it must be nutrition related. And there were a couple of people out there willing to tell me it was nutrition related. So it's cutting out all that stuff and it wasn't working. And I had, I did go see two GPs where one prescribed this cream that basically burned my face off. And the second one wanted to put me on the pill, which is fine, but I didn't think that I was like, "No, there's something, like this is not, this is very abnormal for me. I've never struggled with this." It's finally Lauren had said, you need to get to a registered dietitian. Jen: And she sat down with me, went through what's happening in my life and was like, you need to get some sleep. Like you are so inflamed because your body is so stressed. And that ended up being what it was. It ended up being that when I buckled down and we kind of dealt with these issues with my son and actually what happened was my husband took him away to his parents for five nights cause he just needed to be away from me I think. And within three weeks my, everything was calm. My face was calmed down, starting to heal. Like, I would just wake up and look puffy, like when I was so sleep deprived, I wake up and look puffy and almost feel hungover and that all just, once I fixed our sleep issues, that all went away. Dr. Canapari: I find that totally believable. And first of all, as a sidebar, how great to find a provider who looked at your whole set of issues and really like, there's no upside for a nutritionist to say "It's actually your sleep," right, financially. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: But I think I know, Annie, you work as a trainer, right? Annie: Yep. Dr. Canapari: So I bet if your clients aren't getting results, you're probably like, how much sleep are you getting at night, right? Like you can't, you're not gonna you're, you're going to struggle with your weight if you're sleep deprived. You are, I mean, I know you guys wanted to talk about sleep debt. Sleep debt certainly is a real phenomenon. It's hard to measure biologically. It's not like you can do a blood test and say, "Oh, you have, you know, your level of this neurotransmitter is high, that means you're in this amount of sleep debt." Dr. Canapari: But we know that it's a cumulative phenomenon and you can't really catch up on the weekends. Right. There was a study of teenagers, again, I know we're talking about moms and little kids here, but I think it's very interesting. This researcher named Dean Bebe had this fake summer school for kids that they were enrolled in as a research trial. And they'd have these classes that were kind of boring and they'd sleep deprive the kids for like six hours of sleep a night for two weeks. And they let them sleeping on the weekends. And what they found was every day their performance was getting worse. And if they did, in terms of how they were retaining material, in terms of their vigilance, et cetera, and if they got catch up sleep on the weekends, they got a little bit better, but they didn't get back to their baseline. Dr. Canapari: So the next week they started off worse than they had in the beginning. So it just is going to keep snowballing. And the classic example is of a parent. I mean I think that there was a research trial published a couple years ago that said single moms are the most sleep deprived people in the United States, hands down, which I find totally believable, right? Jen: Absolutely. Dr. Canapari: If you're working outside of the home, you're a single parent, you know, you are getting your kids to bed and then you have all the work of the household to do. It's just, it's nuts. And it's not like with airline pilots or bus drivers or something like that where we actually have rules saying, well, you have to sleep x amount to do your job. Nobody's, you know, nobody's looking over your shoulder as a parent and saying, "Hey, you know what, it's 10 o'clock, you know, I'll take it from here." Right. Annie: Wouldn't that be nice? Dr. Canapari: Yeah, it would be pretty cool. Annie: That's actually, quite in line. You and I have talked over the phone before this podcast that we address sleep in Balance365 as one of, kind of the habit foundations or habit accelerators because we know, as people in the health and wellness industry that when you're tired, everything just seems harder. Annie: So in terms of sleep debt, if you have a sleep deprived kid or adult, how can you get out of it? Like how- Jen: I don't think we defined sleep debt either before we started talking about, so sleep debt Is what accumulates right? Once you go without sleep, you accumulate, you owe sleep debt. Dr. Canapari: Yes. Essentially. Essentially if you are consistently sleeping less than the amount of sleep you need, and we know for adults it's anywhere between seven and nine hours of sleep at night. Your sleep requirements might be a little bit different than mine. If you think back to before you had kids and you imagined f you went to bed at a certain time and you could wake up spontaneously without an alarm, that's about how much sleep you need. If you do that consistently over a couple of weeks, of course, none of us with children ever experience that. But it's if you are constantly getting less sleep than you need or your sleep is interrupted frequently as it is if we have a child that's sleeping poorly at home, you're developing sleep debt, which is just the biological imbalance. Dr. Canapari: When you think about sleep it's sort of like breathing, eating healthy food, breathing clean air, drinking enough water. We know if we eat poorly, we feel worse. If we we're having too many calories, the wrong kinds of calories, but it's the same. It's the same deal with sleep and sleep is, it's very easy to shortchange sleep, right? You can't manufacture extra hours in the day. It's easy to stay up a little bit later and you know, either catch up on work, do your email, fold laundry or even just get caught in that cycle of say, binge watching or something like that. Because we're surrounded by these addictive technologies that want to, you know, have our eyeballs instead of having us go to sleep. Jen: And, and just to that point, I mean we do, we're human beings are amazingly resilient. So anyone can tolerate a couple nights of bad sleep or a couple of nights of not great eating habits. It's really what we're doing day in and day out, week to month to yearly, right? Dr. Canapari: Right you can catch up to a degree on weekends, but again, most parents don't have that luxury. I think that the real key is, look, some people have weeks, months, years of sleep debt, the key is just going forward. How are you going to change your life to allow you to start getting caught up on that? And I think even if it's just allowing yourself to get an amount of sleep so you feel rested in the morning. In my clinic, we look at an incremental gains, right? Like if someone's going to sleep at midnight every night, again, I deal with a lot of teenagers who are sleep deprived. I don't want immediately go and be like, well, you should go to bed at eight o'clock night. We sort of start seeing, well, what, what can we do to get you to sleep at 1130 or 11? Like getting those small incremental gains are going to make someone feel better and be more successful even if it's not perfect. And it's likewise if you're working on your child's sleep issues, again, like little kids usually aren't that sleep deprived, right? Because they're going to make it up during the day. They're going to make it up in the car. They may have naps at preschool. They may nap great a preschool even if they refuse to now for you, which is a really frustrating phenomenon, right. Lauren: That's happening to us right now. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And they're going to catch up but as parents we don't have that luxury, right? We can't take a nap. We need to be attentive when we're driving in the car, giving presentations at work or anything like that. When you get into older children, think later elementary school, middle school, high school, that's when those kids are going to have more difficulty catching up. The biggest reason to fix the problems in young children is to me, it's the benefit for the parents. Jen: Right, right. Annie: That's actually something you also addressed in your book, which I so appreciate as you have a section about what sleep training will do for you. You know, it's like it allows, it's like the snowball effect. As I said, everything's just seems harder when you're tired and all of a sudden when you're getting more rest, maybe you have more energy to get in a workout or have some extra time to go do Xyz or you're more productive at work or you're more efficient in the home or what, you know, whatever. It just seems to carry over and spill over into so many areas outside of the bed. Jen: What happened with my youngest son, and if you think this is way off, Dr. Canapari, you can tell me to shut up. I had three kids in four years and then my last one was this terrible sleeper and then I ended up, you know with the doctor or with that dietitian telling me you need to get some sleep. Even though my acne started clearing up after three weeks of consistent sleep, I noticed that I didn't wake up feeling refreshed for about a year. Like it took like a year for me to feel like I was recovered from those years with the kids. Dr. Canapari: So I think there's probably a lot of factors there, right. You know, working off a sleep debt is not something that happens easily, right. If perhaps your husband had said, I'm actually going to take all three of the kids for a month. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: You could've gotten caught up. But also, and excuse me for presuming you mentioned you were also struggling, struggling with some postpartum depression and that probably also could be factored into this as well. Jen: And starting this business and you know, there is stress definitely in my life. And also let's go over that year, the kids would get sick and you know, it's not like I had a year of perfect sleep before I felt recovered, but I just remember at that one year mark going like suddenly realizing, "Oh my gosh, I'm waking up in the morning and I'm feeling, like, refreshed." Like, yeah. So it was just, I was just very tired for quite a while after even getting the sleep training and not that, you know, not that things didn't improve for me, right, just by getting better, right? We talk in Balance365, we have this saying called all or something and it's like, when will it ever be perfect? But you can always, you know, there's usually a better choice available to you. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and- Dr. Canapari: Totally right. Jen: So and we have a lot of women who talk about, you know, they're just so fried from work and parenting that the evenings feel like the only time they have for themselves, like get the kids in bed at, you know, say 7:30, 8 o'clock and then they stay up til midnight because it's the only time they have for themselves in their week. And they just, they're just like selfish with it. They just crave that alone time so badly. But, and I, we all deserve that. Like, I get it and we all deserve that. But just even saying, okay, well instead of four hours for yourself, can you take three, go to bed at 11 instead of midnight. That gives you something. Right. Dr. Canapari: Well also, I mean, I think that if you can convince someone to get an extra hour of sleep at night, they're going to be like, "Oh, that is for me. Right?" Like getting that extra sleep is actually a really powerful tool I have to make my life better. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And, you know, I certainly, you know, Annie and I were talking like, you know, to have finally developed an early morning exercise practice and now I just go to bed earlier cause I feel tired at like 10 o'clock at night and wow. You know, I used to stay up til like 1130 or 12 and I'm like, "Wow, I actually feel *inaudible*" and I'm like a sleep doctor, I should know this, right? It was very easy to stay up and like, you know, watch another show on TV or just kinda, you know, the time gets away from you when you're tired, right? You can just sort of be scrolling through Instagram or watching Netflix and all of a sudden you're like, "Holy crap, it's like 1145." Right. And I see parents where their young child is going to sleep at 11 or 12. It's more common than you'd think. Annie: Wow. Dr. Canapari: And I'm always saying to people, I'm like, "Look, I love my kids, but I am so done with them by like 8:30 at night. You know, like, they need to go to their place and be on their own so I can, you know, my wife and I can unwind." Jen: Right, right. Is there any truth to this fact that getting every hour of sleep you get before midnight is like two hours of sleep that you're getting after midnight? Is there any truth to that? Dr. Canapari: I think that's probably, I haven't heard that. I would say that when it comes down to is, the fit of when you're sleeping versus when your body wants you to sleep. Jen: Oh, okay. Dr. Canapari: I don't know if you guys have ever heard the phrase social jetlag. It's something we think about a lot in teenagers, but it can happen a lot in I think mostly not parents cause we get up early on the weekends. But if you think back, I can think back to before I had kids, I had a weekday bedtime and wake time and a weekend wake time and bedtime and wake time, right. Jen: So your weekends are maybe 2:00 AM to 10:00 AM. Dr. Canapari: Exactly. Jen: Yeah. Okay. Dr. Canapari: So I'm sort of like, on the weekends I was living on California time and the weekdays, I was living in Boston time. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And we know it's not just the duration of sleep, it's the quality of fit to what your natural body clock schedule is that has a lot to do with it. Like, we know that shift workers, even if they get adequate sleep, are more vulnerable to certain types of cancer, certain types of chronic disease because they're not sleeping at a time where their body really wants them to do it and, we know, you know, you probably know, we all know, are we more of a night owl or a morning lark? A lot of us as parents, we become morning larks because we have to, and there's actually, if you look up online, you can look up a morning-ness, this evening-ness questionnaire that will actually tell you where you fall on this continuum. Dr. Canapari: You know, teenagers are, you know, kids are naturally kind of morning larks. Like most kids before puberty, they tend to want to go to sleep earlier. They want to get up earlier on average though there are exceptions. When they hit puberty, their sleep schedules shifts two or three hours later. So that is our, you know, in the, and that's when all of a sudden your kid that was going to sleep at eight o'clock, can't fall asleep till 11 o'clock at night and it's not just cause they're on snapchat or their smartphones and doing homework on the Chromebook. It's also just their natural biology. So I think that thing you're referring to is probably, you know, get to the idea of are people just not sleeping at a time when their body wants them to do it? That being said, most people are naturally, you know, I'd say if they go to bed between 10 or 11, get up between six or seven. Again, this sounds like a pipe dream for a lot of parents, right? But around there we'll probably feel pretty good. Jen: Can you shift that too, so if you found yourself to be, I mean it may mean some of us are forced to because of our morning lark children, but I recently, I would have considered myself a night person but starting in November I started getting up at 5:30 in the morning just because it feels like the only I can exercise or on days I'm not working out. I can get some work done before my kids are up. I'm less distracted in the mornings that I am in the evenings for whatever reason. And I feel myself shifting where I'm like- Dr. Canapari: It absolutely is something that you can shift. So generally, the levers you have to pull are, the most powerful one is light exposure. So light exposure in the evenings will tend to shift your body clock later and these are slow changes although it is always easier to stay up later, than go to bed earlier. Right. Jen: Right, right. Dr. Canapari: If you want to shift your sleep period earlier, you could probably go 10 or 15 minutes a night. If you wanted to shift your sleep later. Again, it's not usually what I'm trying to do in the clinic or what most parents are like, "Boy, I'd like to stay up three hours later and get up three hours later." Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: But it's easier to go in that direction. So light exposure in the evenings is going to push your clock later and think about, well what's the light emitting device that we hold about 12 inches from our face? Jen: Smartphone. Right. Dr. Canapari: So smartphones will tend to push people's sleep schedules later. Evening exercise will also push it later. Jen: Oh, okay. Dr. Canapari: Conversely, exercising in the morning light exposures, the best is natural light exposure will move things earlier. So someone wants to get in the, you know, like you said, getting up earlier, exercise in the morning. If you can't exercise outside, that's great. Probably in Canada or Connecticut, we're not exercising with natural light in the morning at 5:30 in the morning cause it's still dark out and it's below freezing but those are really helpful things. In our clinic too, we use a lot of Melatonin. Melatonin in the early evenings will help shift people shift their schedules earlier as well. Certainly that's something someone wants to talk about with the doctor. Jen: Right. If melatonin is right for them. Dr. Canapari: Right. Jen: Okay. So back to sleep training kids. I know we don't want to talk too much about infants cause that's not even, we just don't want to spend too much time there because actually our audience has a wide range of age of children. But when I think one of the most controversial things is when to start sleep training a baby. Dr. Canapari: Sure. And I think that, you know, it's funny, there was a couple of years ago, there was an article in New York Times about a group in Tribeca, which is a very trendy neighborhood in Manhattan, was recommending the people sleep, train their kids at two months of age. And you know, they didn't publish anything on this, but they said they were getting good results. But I think that's a little bit too early. If you look at your average baby between four to six months of age, that's when they're going to start going for longer stretches of sleep at night. They're going to start to be able to fall asleep without being soothed by their parents at bedtime. So that implies to me that naturally speaking, they're evolving the capacity for longer periods of sleeping night. Jen: Okay. Dr. Canapari: I would say for most parents, between four to six months is probably the sweet spot. Jen: Okay. Dr. Canapari: But before then, you really, you know, the best thing to do is to soothe your baby to sleep, rock them, nurse them, give them a bottle, lay them down in a bed when they're asleep. Then around four to five months, that's when you can start trying to put your baby down drowsy but awake. And, if they fuss a little bit, that's okay. If they're screaming and yelling, maybe they're not quite ready from a biological standpoint. Right. It's, you know, the funny thing about when I had my second son is I'm like, "Oh, he's not exactly like the first one," which if you asked me intellectually I would've said, "Oh, of course they'll be different," but you expect your child to be this kind of the same. And, you know, and I say, parents just try putting them down drowsy but awake and see how it goes. If your child's hysterical, then wait a week or two and try again. Jen: Right. Okay. Dr. Canapari: If your child's sleeping through the night and you know, no matter what you do, you don't have to sleep train. Right. You know, it's not something you have to do. The reason you do it is so your child can fall asleep independently and stay asleep for the night so that we can get a good night of sleep. Annie: So two and a half is maybe a little too old to be coddling to bed. Is that what you're saying? Dr. Canapari: I mean, I think that it's fine if your child sleeps well at night, right? Like, you know, I always say like, if what you're doing is working, great, you don't have to change a thing. There's nothing, you know, sometimes I lay down with my kids at night at bedtime. My younger ones, like, will kick you out in five minutes. It was like, "That's great dad. You can go." As his words are, "I want to go to sleep in my own time." He doesn't even want me to see him setup his blankets and the older one wants me to stay a little bit longer. And I'm like, "Well, this is precious. He's 11. Pretty soon he's going to want nothing to do with me." So I'm happy to lie there. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it if your child is sleeping great and you're happy with how your child's sleeping, however, if you're not happy with how your child's sleeping, if you have to spend three of those precious hours in the evening laying with them to get them to fall asleep, if they need you multiple times during the night, then you may want to make a change. Dr. Canapari: Right? But you don't have to change anything if you're happy with the arrangement. The same thing with bed sharing. If you have a family bed and it's going great, provided that you're observing safe sleep practices with an infant, more power to you, that's wonderful. But if you're not happy and if someone's not sleeping well, then you may need to make a change. Annie: I want to keep the cuddles at bedtime and let her fall asleep on me. I don't want her waking up at night. Jen: Yeah, that's what I like. Annie: I want the best of both worlds. Jen: But I think that's quite common. It's, so there's getting the child to sleep, you know, baby, toddler, child, what, how do you keep a child sleeping? Dr. Canapari: Now that's the trick, right? So you know, I think it was actually, it was Richard Ferber, which came up with this idea of sleep onset associations. The idea that your child falls asleep under a certain set of circumstances, and then naturally, as he or she goes through the night, she wakes up at night. We've all experienced that. We may wake up at two or three in the morning, adjust our pillow rollover and go back to sleep. You may not even remember it if you're up for five minutes, but you know, as Ferber talks about in his book, if you woke up in another bedroom, you might be like, "What the Hell is going on?" And you might go investigate. So, it's hard to know what babies are thinking. But if your child falls asleep with you present and then goes through a natural awakening at night, she might need you to go back to sleep. Dr. Canapari: That's why working on independent sleep at bedtime tends to make those nighttime awakenings go away. Because once your child is able to put herself to sleep, she can go back to sleep with a natural awakening. And this dovetails nicely with a phenomenon we've all seen. Your child will have three hours of the deepest sleep of the night, stage three sleep, slow wave sleep at the beginning of the night. So that's like if you're driving back from somewhere, your kid falls asleep. You can pick your kid up, change the diaper, put them in a bed, they don't wake up and that's about two or three hours of sleep. But then, say you put your child to sleep at eight o'clock, you're getting to bed 11, all of a sudden you hear your kid calling for you, right. Because that's when they come out of that stage of sleep and they go through a period of REM sleep, REM sleep, or dream sleep clusters in the second half of the night. And it happens every two to three hours after 11 o'clock, that's when your child is going to wake up and request your presence. Jen: That's exactly what's going on in my house. It starts around 11. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, exactly. Just when you're getting the bad and you're lying- Jen: Yes. Dr. Canapari: Maybe tonight's going to be different, right? Lauren: Right. I remember that sense of dread. 11 o'clock. Jen: And that's actually when my sons, my boys go to bed at about 7:30, between 7:30 and 8 and they go to bed really well independently. But when my son was having really intense night terrors, I could almost set my watch to it. It was around 10 30 or 11 when he would start screaming. But now he's not having his night terrors s just getting up and coming to find me. And you know, parents are too tired, you're too tired to take them back to the bed. So he crawls in bed with us and I'm not happy with that, but it just seems like our best option right now. And I think what I found, cause I had mentioned earlier, I found on your website to talk about sleep aids and I think I'm my son's sleep aid. Like it's me. It's actually, and when he goes to his grandparents' house, he does not wake up through the night. He sleeps all night. It doesn't go looking for anybody. Dr. Canapari: Is it frustrating? Jen: It's so frustrating. Dr. Canapari: I guess you're doing it wrong. You know, I always like my parents applying like the finest seventies parenting techniques. No, when my kids are over there and I'm like, you know, I just, you know, give them like Coca Cola, like all the stuff that I'm like, I would never permit in my household and, you know, it's fine. But that is one of those things. And that's why I think one of the things in your outline, is I think is, I just want to get to is, is dividing sleep responsibilities in the household. If there's a two parent household, it's very important that both parents participate at bedtime. And, I can't tell you often I hear the story of you know, someone and it's, let's be real here, if it's a mom and a dad in the household, it's usually the mom coming in and saying, "Well, he'll only go asleep for me." Dr. Canapari: And the dad may say, you know how dads are, "I can't do this. You know, you have to do it." And, you know, I think that best practice is at an early age, get both parents involved at bedtime. But if, you know, sometimes, as you said, sometimes mom needs to go out of town. Right? Like if you can't, if you leave town for a couple of days, guess what? The dad's gonna figure it out and your kid will figure out it as well. It's not like if you, you know, if you had to go away on a work trip, your child would not sleep for five days. Right? Like, that's just not how it works. And I think it's really important that any one of the household who is a caregiver helps. Dr. Canapari: And, you know, I even give parents a script. I mean, I to say, you know, "I know we're both concerned about our son's sleep. I really need your help. You know, like, the doctor says you need to help at bedtime and I'm going to go out." You know, it's likewise in blended households, if parents are separated, like single parents, et cetera, it's very important that kids have the same set of rules and have consistency at both homes if there are sleep difficulties. This is the struggle for a lot of families. I mean, you know, many, you know, every parent wants the child to sleep well, but say they're at mom's house on the weekdays and on the weekends the Dad may let the kids stay up later, and just lie with them to go to sleep and that you know, that it's fine if things are going great but if things aren't going well it's really important that everyone who cares for the child get on the same page. Jen: Right. And with the same routines. Dr. Canapari: I mean it's not going to be the same in both households but as close to possible in terms of the timing, in terms of what you do and specifically in terms of is a parent there when the child falls asleep or not? Annie: Right, right. Okay. Do you have any, I know you have a whole chapter in your book dedicated to sleep environment and location and I think there's probably a lot information in that chapter that could apply to adults in addition to kids. Do you have any, are there any like non negotiables are things that you would really encourage people to consider in their sleep environment? Dr. Canapari: Oh man. I'd say getting the screens out of the bedroom and, I think there is, when I started working as a sleep doctor, when I finished my training in 2007, the big argument was does your kid have a TV in the bedroom or not? Right. That was what, you know, that was often the conversation. That's often the conversation I was having with families would be like, "You need to remove the television from your child's room because they're sleeping poorly." Nowadays it's not a conversation about television in the bedroom, it's about tablets, smartphones, et cetera. And we know these devices are corrosive to sleep, you know, as we were talking about earlier, the bright light can actually shift your biological clock later. We also know that these devices are profoundly addictive, right? Like Instagram doesn't make money if you're not looking at Instagram. Jen: There's a lot of research put in to how to keep people there. Dr. Canapari: The smartest psychologists in the world are in Silicon Valley trying to addict you to these services. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And, I encourage people to keep them out of their bedroom and really to be pretty strict. I love now on, what's the feature called on the iPhone? It's screen time. Lauren: Screen time. Yeah. Dr. Canapari: It's generally been a positive with my kids, except when I'm at work on a snow day, say, and they keep sending me messages to give them more screen time, but I think they kind of get it. And I also liked in my phone says at 10 o'clock being like, you know, it basically kind of shuts it down and I can bypass it. But taking that step being like, "Do I really need to keep scrolling through this right now?" You just need that little check and really ideally keeping the devices out of the home because, you know, I'm very careful about shutting off alarms on my phone. My wife has all these alerts on her phone. So if like something on the Guardian website, the UK goes off a news alert goes in the middle of the night, she gets an alarm and I'd be like, do we must we know what, what the queen said in the middle of the night? Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and I turn off her phone. Jen: So just getting all those alerts off notifications, like just- Dr. Canapari: Yeah, if you can keep out of the room and if your kids are little, setting this example now will pay dividends when they get older. Right. Jen: Yeah. My son, I did this as an incentive for them to get their butts going and get ready for school in the mornings. They are allowed to watch TV or play video games once they are ready for, ready to go for school. So that just got them go hustling. Right. So they could watch some TV before school and when it started they would, that meant 10 of TV before we had to leave for school. But I have found over the last year that it has increased because they're getting up earlier and I am not sure. I'm wondering if that's because there's some kind of habit or something built in where they're there, maybe start rousing a bit in the morning, but then all of a sudden it's like "TV, I can watch TV." And so it's, I didn't mean to, so there's, it's like they're sleeping less and I don't know if there's any science behind that, but I swear if I cut out TV in the morning, they'd sleep longer in the mornings. Dr. Canapari: Well, I mean, how badly do you want to do that, right? Jen: I don't know, I don't know if it's negotiable or not. Dr. Canapari: In general, I like incentives for behaviors that are desirable and really getting kids ready in the morning are one of those situations where you have so little leverage, right? Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: Like if your child, if your child is difficult in the morning, what is the outcome for them? You have to drive them to school. Like they know that they have you over a barrel. I think that maybe putting a limit on being like, well you know, here's the maximum amount of screen time you could get. But it is one of those things like as you go through the night, your sleep gets lighter and lighter. Right? That's why it's so much harder to get kids to stay asleep. Especially to do early morning awakenings than it is to get them to fall asleep. Both in terms of behavioral techniques and even, cause I see kids with sleep problems bad enough I write for prescriptions. Dr. Canapari: Any medicine that can last long enough to keep a kid asleep in the morning is going to last too long. You just can't calibrate it that way. So I think that if your children are functioning well in the morning and going to sleep at a reasonable hour, they're getting enough sleep. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's disruptive. But if you feel like they're really struggling during the day, like if the teachers are giving you feedback or they're falling asleep on short car trips during the day, then maybe you want to think about a different incentive to get them going. Annie: Right. Right. Jen: Right. Lauren: I'll say, Jen, something that we did with Elliot this year is she would wake up at like 4:00 AM and come in my room and wake me up. "Is it morning time yet?" Cause it's dark, you know, when she would wake up I'd be like, "No, go back to sleep." She'd come in at five. "Is it morning time yet?" So we got this little alarm clock thing that lights up green when it's morning. Dr. Canapari: The "Is It Ok To Wake?" clock? Lauren: Yes. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. No, I think, I think that works really well. And, you know, it's, I think Andy alluded at the beginning, my younger son was, for a while, was a real early riser. I mean, I remember going to Disney World when he was like seven and taking him for walks so my older kid and wife could sleep until 6:30 in the morning, you know, like, I like the okay to wake clock and an older child to who can get it, you can be like, look, "You can get up and play in your room and read books." Lauren: Yeah. She's five, so she's old enough to understand, you know. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. I mean a two or three old is just going to roam, right. You know, but and that's the important thing too, you know, in terms of the sleep training conversation, it is very clear that sleep training, even cry it out sleep training is effective and it's safe. But the best study, looking at the safety of it, they were looking at things like that always gets trumpeted as side effects of sleep training, elevated cortisol levels at all, et cetera. It all was fine at the time where kids were age five and it really seemed like most kids were sleeping pretty well by age five, no matter what you do. There are exceptions to this, right. You know, I've explained this in my home, in my clinic certainly, but I think the message to parents is positive. Like address the problems you need to address for your sanity. If you're doing things that you know aren't quite best practices like lying with your two and a half year old until they fall asleep and they sometimes crawl in your bed at night but you can live with that, that's okay. Your child is going to be fine. If you are okay, if you can live with it, right? It's like parenting is an exercise in compromises. You can't potty train your kid and sleep train your kid and like you can't fix everything at once. So it's okay, pick a problem you want to work on and work on that. Let the other stuff slide you're going to be okay. Annie: I think that's a wonderful message to wrap up on because it's like, it's very much in line with our program as well. Like, find what works for you and it's good enough. That's all the is really important. Even if it's not best practice, you know, the ideal or whatever it is. Dr. Canapari: Well. Yeah, and I think that if, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe one of the focuses that you guys talk about with, is clients the right term? Annie: Members, yeah. Dr. Canapari: Your members is weight control, right? And I just want to leave with you with, I think that's something that's so important is we know that sleep curtailment is associated with increased appetite and increased weight gain. And, I just saw a great research talk showing that the hormonal reasons for this were different for in men and women. But the outcome is kind of the same, that if we sleep poorly, we accumulate more adipose tissue, more fat. We have more hedonic eating, craving for salty, sugary foods. So I think, and of course I'm biased, but for people that are struggling with their weight, improving their sleep is such a important thing to do. And if the way you do that as improving your child's sleep, think about that as another goal why this is worth your effort, right? If, we'd all like to, most of us, you know, want to maintain a healthy weight, and working on sleep is going to help people do that. So I think that's an important message even if your members don't have kids, working on their own sleep is going to be a really high yield thing for them to do in terms of their health. Jen: Right, right. So like regular sleep will lead to more regulated eating, which leads to a stable regulated weight. Dr. Canapari: Absolutely. Annie: There's not much that more sleep wouldn't do good for people. I can't think of any, too many negative outcomes for more sleep. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that most of us professionals, grownups, we're working on sleep debt, we need to chip away at it because it's going to help us be healthier, feel better, and you know, to kind of be the people we want to be. Annie: Yeah. Thank you so much doctor. There's so much good information here. I can't, I think our listeners are just going to really, really appreciate this. And we will send links to go find your book because I'm sure by the time we release it will be out. So congrats on the book and thank you for joining us. We appreciate your time. Dr. Canapari: Thanks guys. It was fun. And yeah, I'm sorry we didn't answer all the questions you sent me in advance, but I'd be happy to come talk to you guys again some time. Annie: Yes. We'll have to have you back for sure. Okay. Dr. Canapari: Take care. Jen: Thank you. Lauren: Bye. Dr. Canapari: Bye guys. Annie: This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.  

  Jen, Annie and Lauren are joined by Renae Regehr of Free To Be Talks to discuss how to support our middle school kids in developing media literacy and better body image. Teaching kids to navigate social media and the messages about their bodies is so important. Learn what to say when you don’t know what to say and enjoy this stimulating conversation. What you’ll hear in this episode: How Free To Be Talks was born Which age groups responded best to the curriculum Embodied media literacy: what does it mean? Head knowledge vs lived experiences The blind spots we have about the impact of media messaging Helping our kids cultivate self-compassion Do you really need to have all the answers as a parent? Being vulnerable with our kids in an age appropriate way Role modelling for our kids Appearance-based compliments and the need to balance them Being mindful of the language we use to describe our children’s bodies Body acceptance: accepting our own bodies and those of our kids The subtext of unattainable beauty ideals Equipping our kids to separate their value as people from their social media metrics Finding validation from within Being mindful of how much of our identity is rooted in our appearance Healing body image issues in context, with the help of others Body diversity on social media, feeling seen and represented Maintaining perspective about the importance of our appearances Being judicious about how much mental energy we devote to our appearance   Resources: Free To Be Talks Hillary McBride podcast mothers daughters body image Sisters podcast Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Discount code: Free2bbalanced Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio. This is your host Annie Brees and today we are talking about middle schoolers and media. Media is reaching our youth younger and younger by the day. In fact, the average kid spends eight hours a day consuming media and it's one of the primary reasons as to why 40% of six to 12 year olds don't like who they are because of how they look. Negative body image, depression, anxiety, and eating disorders are on the rise, but thankfully women like Renae Regehr are taking action against that. Renae founded Free To Be Talks, a nonprofit organization that promotes positive body image which gives tools to youth, parents and educators to help them filter through media and develop their individual strengths. Through her MA of Counseling Psychology, Renae developed and tested a research based curriculum inside Free To Be and to date over 2,500 boys and girls have gone through the program. Renae is a registered clinical counselor and also contributing blogger for the Huffington Post and her work has been featured in Time, Darling, Good Men Project, Everyday Feminism and many more. On today's episode, Renae, Jen and I discuss three important points in helping middle school age children develop positive body image and if you listen to the very end, Renae shares a really special gift and opportunity with our listeners. I know you're going to love this episode. Enjoy Annie: Ladies, we have a full house today. Again, we have a special guest. Renee, welcome. How are you? Renae:  I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. Annie: I am so excited to have you here because Jen has just raved about everything that you're doing. Can you tell, how did you and Jen meet? Renae: We met, I believe, through mutual connections. Jen: Yeah. Through Hillary Mcbride who we've had on our podcast twice. And Hillary, I expressed to Hillary that I, you know, I do all this work and we have this worldwide audience, but I still feel my ultimate vision for my life is that I'm actually making an impact in my community where my children are growing up. And she said, "You have to meet Renae. She runs a nonprofit called Free To Be Talks. So I started following you on Instagram and then as soon, the next time you offered a training, I signed up. Renae: Yes. And there's been some changes since then and I can't wait to talk about them. Annie:  Renae, you are a registered clinical counselor. How did you get into this Free To Be Talks, like, how did that come about? Renae:  Oh, I feel like it's been like my life work, really. But when I was going through my master's, I developed a curriculum for a group class that I was running. And at the time I had a friend that was in the school system in my hometown and she said, you know, I want to run this program. And I said, "Okay, well I've developed this rudimentary curriculum, why don't we run this body image program together?" And so these grades six and seven girls volunteered on their lunch hour to be a part of this group. And it was so eye opening because not only did the same struggles that I had gone through when I was a teen, those things were coming up again for the girls but I would say there even more pressures that the girls were facing with the rise of social media and just different factors that were impacting them. Renae:  And so I went to my research supervisor at the time and I said, "This is what I'm doing. I'm running the program. Can I create this for my master's thesis?" And he said, "Well, if there's a problem in the literature, then yeah, go for it." So I said, "Okay, challenge accepted. And I dove deep into the research literature and I wanted to know, like, what had been done, what still needed to be done, what was helpful, what wasn't maybe so helpful. And then from there I emerged and with this new vision of okay, this is what's been helpful, this is what we need to do. And really from that, a couple of things. One was that we needed to move more from a pathology perspective. So not just focusing on what are problems with body image, but what do we do now that we know what these problems are like, what the "So what?" to this problem here? Renae: Where do we go from? And really utilizing them like a strengths perspective so we can deconstruct something but then we need to be able to build it back up again. And then the second thing with that is we need to include boys in this conversation and although boys have been included in this conversation, more so in the last five to 10 years, I would say, historically and previously body image has primarily been thought of as a girls issue. And so from that I approached my supervisor and I said, "Hey, this is what I found. There is definitely a need in healthy body image programs. And so I started to create Free To Be, and I actually ran with grade tens as my first group and did the analyses with them. And although the research showed that it was effective, just my clinical intuition and when I was running the program, it felt like I was doing a lot more intervention with the kids. Renae:  And even though they were receptive and you know, we had good conversations, we then ran it with grade six and sevens. And that was really where we hit the sweet spot because these issues were becoming so relevant to them. Their bodies were starting to change, their bodies were on their mind a lot more and they were really engaging with the material. And so from there it started to just take off and I realized, you know, I can't just keep this to myself. And that always had been my vision that I wanted to expand it beyond me. Years ago I actually had a blog and it was called Bigger Than My Voice because I wanted it to be bigger than me. And so from there after, as I was developing free to be, I realized I can make this bigger than me and I've had so many incredible women come around that have either identified with my story or have had kids that have impacted or they've had body image struggles when they were younger and they wanted to take it, run with it and teach the curriculum around North America now. So it's kind of like the short version of everything. Annie:  I love it because- Jen: I had my own goosebump moment. It's amazing. Like I would say grade six is when I started becoming aware of my body. Like everything happened a lot for me in grade six. It was like all of a sudden boys became very, like, a thing in my life and my body started changing and a lot of, and even other girls, their bodies were changing at a more rapid rate than mine. And I was like, "What's wrong with my body?" And you just, yeah, it's grade six was, yeah, a big year for me, personally. Renae:  Yeah. Grade six, grade six, grade seven. And because girls, you know, we develop earlier than boys, you know, there's a wide range of like when we're developing and our bodies are just so much more on our minds then. And so it makes sense that to be able to be armed with tools about, you know, what's going on around us, how is this impacting us? Could be, is so helpful to be like, "I'm not weird. I'm normal, this is normal. This is normal. What we're all going through." Jen: Yeah, absolutely. The other thing, Renae, is why I was so excited to find you is because we work with women and I like, I love working with them. I'm sure many of them are listening. I love working with them, but sometimes I start to feel like, "Oh," like I just, I feel like we're on the reactive side of, you know, building communities and treating, you know, this issue where I want it to be on the preventative. And I also wanted to be involved on the preventative side because I don't want to keep raising generations of women that just need treatment, right. Lauren:  Yeah. And I'll add to that too, like, because we work with women, we have them coming to us say, "Okay, how can I prevent this for my child? What can I do to be that preventative role model for them?" Renae:  And there's so much that parents can do. That is something that I've, that I always, when I went on, whenever we run the Free To Be program, there is a pamphlet that we hand out in the beginning and we always stress to teachers, to parents, to whoever's running the program, hand these out because these conversations that we are starting at school are so much more impactful if they can be continued at home and deepened at home and expanded at home because that's where so much learning occurs. Annie:  Absolutely. And something that I think we hear often in our community too is that women want to have these conversations or parents are obviously, we work pretty exclusively with women. They want to have these conversations with their girlfriends, with their kids, but they're so worried about if they're saying the right thing or not that they just don't say anything at all. Like, you know, "Okay, my daughter comes home and is asking about calories or someone called her fat or you know, she's being bullied or she's being picked on or she wants to lose weight or she wants to get a fitbit. I mean it's just these daily conversations that they're almost like, I'm so worried I'm going to say the wrong thing and they're gonna like permanently feel that type of way forever and ever. So it's really great to have you on here because I actually, I said, "Can you just give us the main talking points and kind of do's and don'ts about how we can help promote positive body image for middle schoolers?" Which is like your jam, right? Renae: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And even when you sent me that request in that talk, I was like, well, you know, we could just talk about it and where it goes because we literally could talk about this for hours and hours and hours. Annie: Absolutely. Renae: But that can just be overwhelming. So- Annie:  Yes. So you came back with three, which I appreciate. These are the three, like the, really, I'm guessing kind of the big rocks that you feel are really important. If you want a place to start, these would be three good areas to spend some effort or give some attention to, yeah? Renae: Yes. And even the way I structured those three, they are, we could talk about them in depth for a lot, a long time. And so do you want to go through them one by one? Or do you want me to sort of list them off? Annie: Yeah, well here, the first one that you listed off was develop embodied media literacy. Not just head knowledge, but experiences that help them know and experienced their bodies as good and powerful. Can you tell me what that means? Renae:  Okay. This has become a big one for me recently because I cannot tell you enough. I go do these talks. I do these presentations in addition to running Free To Be, and I will talk to kids or I'll talk to teenagers and they're so smart. They are very smart, they're savvy, they know what's going on. And so we'll talk about Photoshop, we'll talk about appearance pressures, we'll talk about things that are impacting about social media, how it can be used as a tool for good or as a tool that can, you know, be a portal into isolation or anxiety or this comparison trap that you get stuck in and they can be so articulate and their responses and yet then they'll tell me, "Yeah, this can really impact some people, but it doesn't impact me." Renae:  And that's just not how our brains work. What we are exposed to is going to impact us. Like, my brain isn't locked in some special fortress where I'm not impacted by the messages and ideas around me. And, so they can be critical of these messages or ideas and and yet they embody them at the same time. It was, I was struck so much by this realization a couple of months ago when I was chatting with a particular group of girls and this girl was telling me about all of these things, and here she was with fake eyelashes and embodying all the appearance ideals and on her phone on Instagram scrolling through things. And it's not that wanting to invest in your appearance or following beauty trends is bad or wrong or anything like that. It's the fact that there's this disconnect that we think that things impact other people but not us. Jen: 100% we see this all the time. I know exactly what you, they like, they know but they can't embody. There is just a total and I have been there so I get it like it's- Renae:  Yes and I get it because there's so many factors that are involved in creating our body image that go into our body image. And so I really started to stress this embodied media literacy because it's not just head knowledge. We can have head knowledge until we are blue in the face with, like, understanding something. But if we don't experience our bodies as good, as agents of power, as a place to connect with others, as something that is powerful, then a lot of the message is lost because our minds and our bodies are so connected and we need to be able to experience our bodies as good. Renae:  And so in presentations I never just talk and so much of Free to Be isn't just talking. It's experiencing your body as something that is good and moreover we're so much in relationship with others. So we need others. We need to have that experience where others experience us and we feel experienced. We receive the experience of being seen as good enough for who we are. And so there's so many things that we can do to get that embodied media literacy. But that's that embodied piece. And then the media literacy media literacy piece is really just helping them critically digest and understand like what is going on in the media around us and not just the media, like in our friends and in our family. Because all of these fears are so important because we ended up internalizing these messages ourselves and they become our narrative and the way we live our life. And so it's not just the media literacy, the critical digestion, it's also the embodiment piece that we need those two together so much.   Jen: So would you say, Hillary McBride talked about this in her first podcast with us because Hillary McBride experienced an eating disorder and actually she ended up in inpatient care and she talked about how she said her mom would tell her to eat her lunch at school, but she would come home and her mom's lunch would be uneaten in the fridge. And is that kind of what you're saying? Like it has to, we have to embody this message. Renae: Yes. I'm just trying to think about the best way to say this because it's, we can tell our kids that they are, you know, they're beautiful, they're wonderful til like tell it to the moon and back. We can say that to them over and over and over again. But if they don't see us also embodying the message, if they see us, you know, talking disparagingly to ourselves. If they see us, cook a delicious meal and then we serve them this wonderful food and then we're off in the corner just eating her salad and like restricting ourselves in what we're eating. Those, they're developing an inconsistent message about what they're about, messages about food, about their bodies. But they're learning also simultaneously that some things are good, some things are bad. And our parents model that behavior to us from such a young age. You know that from the comments that we make about, you know, "Oh, you're so beautiful," to what we eat, to how our clothes fit and we don't, I've got to stop right there for a second. We can, like, we can talk about each one those specifically- Jen: For ever and ever and ever and ever. Renae: Exactly but there is, our parents are so influential in how, in embodying and delivering this message and living and living this message. Yeah. Jen: Brene Brown talks about this quite a bit. She has a book called imperfect parenting that it is the only parenting book I will ever recommend to anybody. But she talks about what do you, you know, it is far more impactful to be self compassionate than to tell your kids they should be self compassionate. Renae:  Yes, because that outer voice becomes their voice. Jen: Absolutely. Renae: When they are, when you mess up as a parent and when I mess up as a parent because oh my goodness, I do mess up and I make mistakes or even simple things like I'm driving and I take the wrong turn, instead of being like, "Oh my goodness, I'm such an idiot" being like "Ah! Mistakes happen" and, or I mess up at home or I mess up doing something else. And you know, being able to repair and model that repairing and being able to model being disappointed, even with the actions that I've made. And doing that in a healthy way isn't a sign of weakness. I think it's a sign of being able to model a way of being because our emotions are, we all have emotions and they're fundamental to the way we live and experience life. Renae: And so if I can give my children the gift of, you know, this is how, these are healthy ways that you can experience sadness or anger or like those tough emotions that don't feel comfortable, then we are, I think that's a big gift to be able to give them. Jen: Totally. Renae: And so many body image issues, are tied to insecurities, feeling anxious, feeling not enough, feeling embarrassed, feeling shame. And nobody likes sitting with those. They're not, they're uncomfortable. And so learning to be able to sit with those as parents and model that, oh, it's such a gift and it's hard. Oh it's so hard. Jen: It's so hard. And I also, I was talking with one of our Balance365ers about this last week. She struggles with caring for herself, you know, being self caring and self compassionate. And I think that it's important to understand that, well, not understand, but just to note, it might not feel natural for us, especially if we were raised by somebody who was, you know, very hard on herself or hard on us. And I think that was pretty typical that our parents came from a place of shaming, right, to discipline. And Brene Brown talks in her book about how if you're a parent who, you know, didn't shame your kids, it's like you would be shamed for not shaming them. So it was just so that's how everybody parented. And so now we have this, these generations of people who really struggle with shame and there's an element that comes in as far as being self compassionate and self loving and more, having a positive body image things, a dialogue, I guess I should say. Jen:  There's such a thing as faking it til you make it right. Like, it might not feel natural, but, it's like, I just feel so strongly on the days when I just, I don't want to be self compassionate. I feel responsibility to be self compassionate for my children because I know they're watching and I never want them to question it or it to feel unnatural. I don't want them to struggle with the same things I did. And so I just sometimes don't have the energy to be kind to myself. It's just, it's in my nature to be really hard on myself. And I think, but I always have the energy for my kids and I just, I, yeah. So even when embodiment doesn't feel natural for me I feel like I feel this sense that I have to, you know, I have to for my children. And so yeah, I think a lot of people wait to take action on them. We hear this all the time in a self love sense, but they're waiting to be kind to themselves because they're waiting to learn to love themselves, but- Renae: They need feel that right. before they act on it, right, yeah, Jen: Right. But it comes from actions of self care. Renae: And it's the same thing that you would, we would tell a client that's struggling with depression. You don't wait to go for a walk. You don't wait to feel better til you go for a walk. You go for a walk and then you'll feel better. And it's the same thing with these acts of self compassion and it does feel foreign and we can validate that even in ourselves and be like, "Yeah, this feels really weird and uncomfortable but I'm still going to try it and I'm going to do it anyways because I know it's the right thing to do even if it is uncomfortable." And even as parents, you know, we want to be, we want to have shoulders that are big enough for our kids to know that, you know, they can come to us with their big emotions and our shoulders are big enough to handle and to help them to support them. Renae: So I think there's, you know, I like what you're articulating that with our kids we want to be able to model that and you know, being aware of who is the adult and who's the child. And yet at the same time being vulnerable to model what it's like to be disappointed or to be uncomfortable with yourself. I think that, I think that it's a tension that we have to, we have to grapple with and we have to, we may not always get that right perfectly, but it's something that there's no one way or the other way that we can go in order to have a healthy relationship, we need to be able to say, "Okay, you know, this is a hard day for me. I'm having a hard day. I don't have a lot of patience right now. And then whether we tell them the details, whether that's age appropriate or not is something else to consider that we need to be mindful of, you know, depending how old they are because we don't want to put them in a parental role. But at the same time, you know, if they're older than we, even when they're younger telling them, you know, "Mommy's having a hard day or I'm having a hard day. But I'm a big girl." My daughter's two. Jen: I'm a big girl. Renae: I'm a big girl and I can handle it. But just, you know, teaching that, that it's okay that even as adults we have hard days too. Annie: Yeah. Jen: Yeah. Annie:  I think that's beautiful. It's not, so what I hear you saying Renae is that it's not that you need to, like, be perfect all the time. It's that, like, there's power in expressing, like, "Hey, I'm struggling too or this is hard for me or this is difficult or I'm overwhelmed or I'm angry about this, but this is how I'm going to handle it or this is what I'm going to do about it, or this is my choice." And I think that's great because you know, I think there is pressure to feel like, especially when it comes in terms of body image, like I said at the beginning to say all the right things all the right time and like, to have all the answers and it's like, maybe you don't know, you know, like I don't, I don't know. How do you feel about that? What do you think? Jen:  Yeah, what do you think? Annie:  -can be a great answer. Just have a discussion. Like you don't have to like have this perfect like Brene Brown answer, Renae: Or even "Let's go find the answer together." Jen: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. Renae: Right. And, that being committed to finding an answer and to finding a solution, wanting to do that together in a way that's healthy and productive not only teaches that, you know, you don't have to have all the answers, but also how to problem solve and how to, find some answers and then to be, to, to be stuck is, we all get stuck sometimes and it sucks being stuck, stuck, stuck. And, and as a parent, you know, we really want to be able to provide that roadmap. Something that has been so helpful to me, even just not even as a therapist but as like a because I have three children and they're all very different in my son's eight months old. I have two year old daughter and an eight year old son and I have this idea of, you know, how I want my kids to be and I don't want them to struggle and I don't want them to have big problems in their life, like any parent. Renae: And yet then sometimes when I parent, I think of myself as a construction worker who, like, takes a two by four and I'm hammering together this house that I am creating. But that's totally not the way parenting works. Parenting is more like tending to a garden and it's a plot of land that has its own type of soil. Each soil is a bit different. Even when you move down the road, you know, slugs get in, there's different types of, there's amount of rain, like you have to tend to the garden and be attentive to the garden, but at the same time, the garden's going to grow the way the garden is going to grow. There's so many things that are out of your control as the gardener and as a parent. And so learning to work with that, it also, I think that can be so freeing as well too because we can have such good intentions and we can be, we can be so invested in our kids, but there is, like, there's so many things that, just our kids' genetics, the experiences that our kids are having in school, there's so many factors that are involved in developing their body image and just even developing who they are that we can't put all the weight solely on us as parents, as directing the course of, like, this is the way they're going to be because well, A, it's going to fail because they have free will and they're going to do it and they're going to, and they're going to do things that we don't like sometimes. Renae:  But they're also going to have their own minds and learning to cultivate that in the sense of thinking of ourselves as gardeners. To me, it's such a freeing way of thinking, freeing but also a huge element of responsibilities still in parenting and you know, realizing we don't have to be perfect parents but we have to be attentive and attuned and that's so much more, I think, gracious comes to my mind. Like we can be gracious with ourselves and we can even start that self compassion talk with ourselves too. Because sometimes our kids do things that we just, we just don't like. And it's, it's, we can, yeah, we can learn to be still present and attuned and still tend to the garden of our children. Jen: I think too, when you put, you know, when you have, you're trying to will your child to be a certain way and bringing it back to body image, what we have talked about in a previous podcast is sometimes the biggest hurdle for mothers and fathers as far as letting go and doing the things that we kind of know need to be done to help your child develop a healthy relationship with food comes down to accepting your child's body for what it is sometimes, you know, and that can be really a big hurdle for men and women and they come, you know, men, we all come with our own experiences. So for a woman who grew up being teased about her weight on the playground and that that becomes a wound and that wound goes festering her whole life. And then she has a daughter and starts from a very young age trying to control her daughter's food intake because she's so afraid of her daughter being fat and having that same experience that is such a hard thing to deal with. Jen:  But ultimately you have to, you know, our own body acceptance is one thing. But as a parent you have to accept your child's body as well for what it is. And it can just, it can be so tempting and some people just do it unconsciously trying to kind of control their child's body size. But ultimately I don't think you're doing your child any favors, you know, by trying to, will them into a certain body size so they don't get teased. You need to work on developing that resiliency at home and that positive body image and- Renae:  and a lot of that comes down to language as well, too. And learning to talk about our bodies in a way of like what is your body capable of doing and exercise is so important. Not even, like there's so many health benefits that you are all aware of for exercise from, you know, depression and anxiety and just in addition to just bodily health benefits and you know, for mental health benefits as well too. And but reframing exercise and reframing moving our bodies in a way not to reduce our shape or to change our weight, but rather to promote health because then we're moving from a place of not lack. We don't, we want to move to a place of fullness and not where we're changing our bodies to become smaller, to become, to reduce in size but rather to become more fully alive and more fully who we are. Renae:  And I think a lot of that even, so that's one thing that we can do just when we come to exercise. But then the other thing with exercise, because it is so important, and I also, I have parents talked to me about this as well, is that, you know, do things together and make it fun and make it a time of like bonding and where you're experiencing your body in new ways together. And I mean, and it doesn't have to be something like going for a hike or going for a swim, you can do some simple things like dancing or my kids are really little so even like wrestling. Jen:  Right. Renae:  Lots of things that we can do where we can, like, move our bodies in just, like, daily ways that are fun and active. Right? Jen:  Right. Yeah. Annie:  It looks a lot more like play, you know, than, which I think trips a lot of people up, a lot of parents up when they think about, you know, getting active as a family. It's like I don't, when we get asked to have a family, it's not like we're doing an aerobics youtube class, we're, like, we're running and we're playing, we're jumping, we're, you know- Renae:  Playing hockey, climbing trees. Like there's lots that you can do and it's about lifestyle, though. It's learning to experience your body in a way as like a lifestyle that is a vessel to adventure and voyage in the world. Annie:  Yeah. Kind of on that same note, you were on the tip of the iceberg there, Renae is, your second point is to be mindful of your language by cultivating all of who they are and you know that we focus on what we value. So we need to value and grow all parts of our kids, which I don't know where you are exactly where you were headed but what comes to mind is my dad has the best of intentions, but all the time "What a pretty girl, what a pretty-" like to my daughter, "What a strong boy. What a handsome boy." It's just all very appearance space. And there's definitely, you know, the stereotypical little boy, little girl comments that he always gives. And I'm like, "But we're more than that." Is that, is that what you meant? Renae:  Exactly. And it makes sense that, you know, in first impressions that we do focus on appearance because we necessarily know somebody and we can see the outward physical experience of who they are. So we, you know, it's easy to make why we would focus on that, but especially little girls from such a young age and even a little boys, you know, they're so cute or they're so adorable. If that's what we hear growing up time and time again, that is what we are going to value. You know, you think about the news, the news broadcasts, what's valuable, like, what's going on in the world, right? And so you hear it on every single news station and if every single news station is for our kids is highlighting their appearance, it's beautiful, it's wonderful, that's what they need to focus on. Renae: That's what the is going to become at the forefront of their attention and what they're going to need to invest in, what they're gonna need to pay attention to. And so I really become so mindful even more now having kids and especially like my friend's kids or kids that I meet just focusing on just finding anything that I can compliment that focuses on the intention of cultivating their entire personhood. So if my kids are playing Lego, "Oh my goodness, that's so creative in what you've made that took a lot of hard work" or "Wow, you're so, you're so smart in how you figured out this problem" and really trying to help them expand their awareness about all the things that they are capable of doing and to help them just expand their awareness but then just place value on that and speak into that into their life to know this is good. Renae:  There's so many qualities about you that are so good as well. And that can be hard to do in the beginning. Especially when you see somebody that you know, just meeting your friends' little daughter that you've just met for the first time or just haven't seen her in a long time and she's wearing a really cute dress that she got a really cute haircut and you're like, "Oh you're so cute." And I don't think it's bad. And I really don't think it's bad to say, "Oh, you're adorable." But I would say, like, for every one comment that you give that is appearance-focused, try to find a five to seven comments that are not appearance focused because we live in a highly appearance-focused culture from just the fact that we live on our screens so often. And so it's natural that our attention goes to that. Renae:  So being able to cultivate all those other qualities, that's kind of where I'm going with being mindful of our language because again, that external voice that we hear, we internalize that voice. I was just talking to my debt to my husband yesterday about language growing up and about our bodies and experiencing our bodies. And I said, when I was younger my dad always used to pat me on the back really firm, and then say "solid as a horse." I loved horses and it was such a compliment to me because it meant I was strong and I was capable and I, and that and that always stuck with me. And so there's fun ways that you can do that as well. But yeah, that's just something that kind of like stood up for me and these voices become our voices as we get older. Renae:  I grew up, we covered this in one of our podcasts where Annie interviewed me and my sister and, we grew up with very different body types and so, Annie interviewed us on our experience of this and I grew up with people commenting on my body my whole life, like how thin I was, and I just, it was always there, which really speaks more to the women around me, what was going through their heads, right, than anything to do with me. But I would say that contributed greatly to how I ended up developing my values as a woman, right, of what was important. And so I agree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting on someone's appearance or complimenting their experience, you know, but in context, like I love how you said, just really think about it in context of the world we live in. Like there's nothing wrong with telling a little girl she's pretty, or for me to tell Annie she looks beautiful today, but when you, yeah, when you put it in context of the world we live in, that's all we're acknowledging about women. And now we have a society full of women who are, you know, they're making themselves sick, trying to pursue appearance ideals that just aren't even healthy, right. Renae: And it makes sense though, why we are pursuing this because it's so much more than our appearance. So we live in this world where we have these images of these idealized beauty standards where women are, tend to be thin. You know, they have flawless skin, they have this, there's so many factors that are unattainable and that continues to shift, you know, depending on kind of what decade that we are in, but there's still ideals of the case. So this is what a woman looks like right now that, you know, she's considered the beauty standard, but it's not just that, it's this beauty standard. It's the subtext to that. It's this pairing of a beautiful ideal now, like an impossible ideal thanks to, you know, Facetune, Modiface or Perfect365 or any one of those apps or just Photoshop in general. So you have this impossible beauty ideal. But then you also have this, this pairing with love, acceptance, opportunities, mattering. All of these, these images are so closely tied to these deeper fundamental qualities that we all want as humans. We all want to matter. Jen: Yes. Success. Lovable. Connection. Renae:  Exactly. And so we're automatically lured in when we see an image like this or we see, we see something that, you know, even on social media, there's a reason that those numbers are there. Like Instagram didn't, or Snapchat didn't make these platforms and think, I wonder if someone's going to use these platforms. It was like, of course not. They know there's a reason why these likes these views, these metrics are there. Because we conflate that with value and we, equate that to mattering to being seen and we all want to be seen. Like that's, as humans, we're wired to be in connection with each other and so we need to acknowledge that it's complex and it makes sense why some of us, why a lot of us, why we strive to have this beauty ideal, but that's where it goes back to that media literacy and teaching kids about the subtext, about the deeper messages, about the deeper ideas of what's actually being depicted, about what actually is being shown here so that we can help them not only critically digest it but then invite experiences into their lives that are going to allow them to live a holistic life where they're not only thinking about their appearance or they're not only thinking about their, you know, their account following on whatever social media platform they're using because it's, it's a complicated issue and we need to, but they're smart and they can grapple with it from a young age and so we need to equip them from a young age because they're using these platforms from such a young age. Annie:  Which I think is a great segue into your third point, Renae, that you encourage parents to be mindful of how many reminders kids have of their appearance and clothing mirrors, cameras social media and how that shapes our value system. And I actually had that experience just the other day. I was thinking, like, I was just having a rough body image day, which, as it happens- Renae: It does happen, yeah. Annie:  And it was just like, it just seemed like I wanted to capture these photos, or these selfies with my kids, but like, I just couldn't, like, it was just there. It was just right in front of my face all the time. Like every time I opened up Instagram it was like, you know, do an insta story, but I didn't want to be in the photo, but I wanted the photo and it was just like, you know, and then, and even how seeing other people's appearance reminded me of my own as well. Renae:  Yes. Annie: Like it had nothing to do with it, but it was like, I mean, I used to do this, I used to struggle a lot with this when I really, really struggled with body image, probably about five, 10 years ago. It was really hard for me to see other beautiful women because it was just a reminder of all the ways I was feeling. I couldn't just separate the two. I couldn't just admire her attributes or features or traits or whatever, or even see her for more than just a physical thing. I just really struggled to get beyond that and it was somehow I made it into a reflection of all the ways I was lacking. And I would imagine that young girls and boys are dealing with that just as much, if not more with the rise of social media. Renae:  Yeah. And I think just to even springboard off what you're saying there, something that isn't necessarily the most popular opinion, but I think it's something that we do need to acknowledge and grapple with is that beauty is,, there are objective standards of kind of like what is a beautiful person? And I mean it's hourglass shape for women. It's hourglass shape, it's clear skin, it's like bright hair, it's white eyes. These are kind of universal standards of what a beautiful person is. And there's been a big push within the body positivity community and I think has been really well intentioned. But at the same time it's actually been perpetuating this obsession and this focus on our bodies because not people are not going to, like I said, it's been, not everybody is, you know, drop dead beautiful. They're just not. Because if we're all beautiful, then we're actually all average. Beauty is above average. Renae: And the problem with that though is that with hearing that is thinking that "Well, then I'm of lesser value." And that's not at all what I'm saying, and I'm not even talking about inner beauty, we all have inner beauty and because inner beauty is defined by a wide, wide range of like of attributes and characteristics and it's way more important. But this obsession with, you know, liking our bodies for everything that they are, you know, liking all our cellulite, liking every wrinkle, every stray hair, every whatever it is that perpetuates this value system where our focus stays on our bodies. And when we are scrolling on social media, unless you are following like dogs and panda bears or kitty cats, you're being focused on the body, that's just inevitably what's going on. And, so even as like for me as a body image researcher, I have to be so mindful of that. Jen:  And then even like living in Vancouver, I don't live in Vancouver but that's the closest big city that is where I live, Vancouver is world renowned for its architecture on glass, for example. And when what happens when you walk past a glass, like, a mirror, you see your reflection, you, like, check yourself out a little bit. That's just, it's natural. You don't want to feel, you don't need to feel bad about that. But what we do. But then again, it's just that it's that energy that goes back to our appearance. And I think something that we really, really have to be mindful of is that we have a finite amount of mental energy. We have an absolute finite amount of mental energy. And if that is being devoted to our appearance, whether that is good or bad, that is energy that is going elsewhere that cannot be focused on cultivating all aspects of who we are. And so I've really started to take that to heart in my own life. And even just the way even I manage Free To Be and I manage the social media and I manage just the experiences that I invite into my life because it impacts us. It just does. Jen:  The other thing is that we have this as one of our questions in our Balance365 Self Love Journal. So if you take who you are and break it down into a pie chart and if you are kind and funny and a really good friend, a very supportive partner, you know, if you just break it down and if each of those takes up 10% of who you are, who you are, who you consider yourself to be, and appearance is in there, because appearance is part of who we are. If that is 10% of who you are, then when you wake up in the morning with a huge zit or whatever, it doesn't destroy you. It's just a little bit of who you are and you can still function and move along. Or maybe you aren't considered the standard of beauty in our society, but it's just a little piece of who you are, your appearance. Jen:  But the problem is I feel like we have a society of women who were taught that their appearance is 80% of who they are. Renae:  Oh yeah. Jen: And so when they wake up in the morning with a zit, it just, it destroys them or whatever else is bothering them about their appearance. It destroys them and they can barely function in life because their body image is just so, so negative. Or if you have a bad body image day and knowing that your appearance is just a part of who you are, it can allow you to have a bad body image but still function where some people can't get out of bed in the morning when they're having a bad body image day and so really looking at all of who you are, which comes back to what were, you know you had said we need to start teaching our kids and complimenting them for the whole person that they are. Because when we are just complimenting on appearance or just talking about appearance or just scrolling social media and looking at other people's appearances we're starting to build this idea that women are their appearance and then it's just so, so, so then it just becomes, then of course if your parents are 75% of who you are, then 75% of your mental energy is going to go into trying to improve your appearance. But women are just, they are just so much more. Renae: We're so much more than that and yet we're that, that focus on it from such a young age goes to our appearances. So it makes sense that it's so hard to break out of those, like, corseted ideals that we, that we bind ourselves to because that is how we're reinforced and we can't be naive, like, we are, we are rewarded when, when we ascribe or when we try to follow them and let me qualify that, some of us are rewarded and, but we have to be very aware that, that, that power that we get from that that's super short lived. Because it's not true power if, you know, it's going to expire when you're 30 or when your appearance is going to change or if something happens to you. Like that's, we need to, we need to be grounded and centred for deeper things. But it makes sense why we would feel that way and yet we can also work towards then living life differently as well too. Annie:  I've found too, unapologetically, about going to therapy, but one of the things I'm learning is that like my true power comes from within. Like, it's not, I don't get my power from compliments or praise or affirmation or validation from, I don't, I don't get to like outsource my power. And I've tried that for many, many years. Like if they like me then I like me. If they think I'm pretty, then I'm pretty. If they like my work then it's valuable and that feels good in the short term. But it's ultimately not sustain. Like it doesn't fulfill me. And so turning inward, like, do I like me? Who am I? What do I value has been like way more worth my energy than like trying to look a certain way or do a certain thing so other people like me. Renae:  And at the same time, that's like, that's hard to do to put, like, our own beliefs and to put that under a microscope because that can be super uncomfortable to kind of shift away from the thinking that we have had because it does feel good. And then when you think about social media, just going to say one more thing about social media here, you then we are rewarded with those short term signals of those likes, thumbs up and all those things and those things do feel good. You do get, you know the dopamine, a neurotransmitter like dopamine, you get a little rushed and that feels good, but the problem is then we, that's what we ended up seeking more and more and more of that, those short term, the short term validations. And we don't end up doing that deeper work of like, who am I? Renae:  What do I stand for? What do I like? And at the same time living in that tension about acknowledging that our body image concerns don't develop in a vacuum. They develop in context with other people. And so it's going to be so important that we realize that our healing is also going to develop in context with other people where we're going to have to have experiences where people teach us that we are enough, that we are good just the way we are, that we don't have to change, that we aren't too much or too little of something. That healing also is going to have to occur in relationship because we are, we are so wired for relationship. And so it's a, although we want to have, you know, that internal locus of control, we also are dependent on others to be able to have that and also to be seen. Renae:  Cause we need to be seen, we need to matter. And that all happens in context with others. And so it's, I think sometimes I get frustrated when I walk on, when I scroll on social media and I see all these self love inspo quotes and it's, we're shortchanging ourselves because developing these issues didn't develop in isolation. And so healing these concerns isn't also gonna occur in isolation. I just don't, I think that you can find healing through groups on social media, but I'm always so wary of the system, you know, again, because we are rewarded for these likes and these comments and it pulls us and it's so, so powerful. So being able to have conversations like we're having right now where I can see your faces and I can see your expressions. I can see the way you're moving. It's so much more telling than, you know, just liking a post that you put online and it's way more healing and even embodying to be able to do this. And it takes, it's more holistic. It's part of, like, a whole personhood. And again, that goes back to the healing of who we are. Jen:  I wonder what your opinion is on, like, a lot body acceptance slash self love bloggers, influencers, whatever you want to call them. They post photos of themselves, their bodies, you know, in bikini or underwear and supposedly exposing these flaws, right? These "flaws." And people love it and I've heard there's larger organizations like Beauty Redefined talking about how, look if we're trying to acknowledge women as a whole person, we have to move past this constant, you know, barrage of women's bodies. Like if, you know, if you want to love the whole person then we have to look at the whole person. We just can't keep seeing women in bikinis or their underwear showing stretch marks and, I understand what they're saying, but I have to say that personally when I saw that shift start on social media, this is before we founded this company and everything, that was extremely healing for me to see other women's bodies that looked like mine. Like I remember the first time feeling like wanting to sob. Like there's other people out there that look like me. Renae:  Yes, absolutely and I do struggle with this because it's something that it's very, it's very healing to be, when you see yourself represented, you see, you see that as valuable. I think it is important that we do have a wide range of bodies that are out there. And my body has changed drastically after giving birth and being able to see other women's bodies out there, see stretch marks, see saggy boobs, see different things is normalizing and it and that speaks to that deeper issue of wanting to connect and be seen. Right? And we can feel shame when we carry these fears in isolation and we think that we're the only ones and there's just healing by feeling known. And so I think with those photos and that, those, this wider representation of bodies shown is helping a lot of us being known, be accepted. And that in and of itself is healing. And yet at the same time, I also hold the same viewpoint that we do need to move past. We do need to move past just focusing on women's bodies. But they're both incredibly important steps, I think you could say. Or just things that we need to acknowledge intentions that we need to work with. We just can't, we can't dismiss the one and say that it's not healing. Jen:  It's almost like a phase, you know, I had a phase where I was following any woman I could find who was showing her body because I just, I knew I wanted more and more and more of it because it was just so validating for me. Like I just, I felt a release. I felt this just, "Oh my gosh. There's other people out there that look like me" and, but now I feel like I'm in a different phase where I've sort of like, "Okay, yes, there are many other bodies that look like mine and bodies come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and I don't need that in my life as much anymore." Now it's like there's like a phase, I think. Like I feel like I'm on phase two at this point where I- Annie: I personally feel like, cause I feel the same, Jen, but I still post those photos because from time to time, because I do acknowledge that, like, I can acknowledge, like, I know that there's bodies come in a variety of shapes and sizes, but I also know that there's still so many women like you and me and Lauren, you know, five years ago that needed that photo. Jen:  Right. And I see it, I see when you do post pictures of your stomach, Annie, I see when when your stomach is visible in a post, you know, women appreciate it so much. They see this woman who is happy, who is powerful, who loves her body, and has, you know, positive body image and also, is unashamed of these parts of her body that our society- Annie: My humanness. Jen:  Humanness has told us is wrong. It's something that should be hidden. Something we should be trying to fix, something we should be deeply ashamed of. And so I still see it. I still see it because there's always new mothers coming. You know, sometimes we get disconnected almost from what a new mom experiences. And I look back and think, my goodness, the change in me from when I had my first 10 years ago to now like, I mean I thought my body was ruined. I thought I was an abomination after I had my first baby and I can't and I have to, I have to constantly remind myself that there are women who are feeling like that every single day because it's, you know, things have shifted for me. But I think we live in a world where there's more talk of body image today than there ever has been. Like 10 years ago, I feel like it wasn't even an option to love your postpartum body. It wasn't. Where now it's an option, but we still have to make women aware of it. Renae: I think that the tricky line or the line that we want to be aware of, especially from when I think about the research standpoint behind this is the objectification. So when I think sometimes of when I scroll through social media and I see photos of someone posing in a very objectifying pose and then they have this like liberating quote underneath, if you took away the quote and you just were to see the image for what it was, it can reinforce women as being objectified. And again, that's something that, and because we have limited mental energy when we are, when we objectify ourselves, we can internalize that voice. And we then we view our bodies as objects to be consumed, as objects that are, like, viewing pleasure for somebody else. And again, it's so subtle that because we just, we are inundated with diet culture. Renae: We're inundated where women are still seeing so often, in an objectified sense. And so it's something that I just, I really am very mindful of with myself, with even like, even just the research and what I encourage people to do as well too, thinking about, you know, like I do think it's so good to post to how photos of diverse ranges of bodies, but there's a big difference between posting a body that is, you know, having fun or happy or like doing something versus a body and like, and then let's say, you know, I've got stretch marks or I'm, or I've got the, you know, my body's changing. I want to be able to show this is what a body can look like. And this is an aging body and this is a good, and I'm still having fun and I'm having, and this is great, but there's a difference between posting a photo like that versus spending, you know, a long time like A, photoshopping my photo, taking a hundred selfies and then wanting to post only the right photo and then doing it in a way that's, like, very objectifying. Renae: I think we really have to think about like our intentions behind why we are posting those photos. And again, that's not like the most popular opinion to hold. But then when you again, when you look at the research and when you look at how much time and energy we invest into our bodies, I think it's just, we only, we only get one life to live. And I think that's like the driving force behind why I'm so passionate about this message is we get one life to live. And when, I was just at a funeral on the weekend and prior to the funeral I had felt like I had nothing to wear. And then when I was in, when I was sitting in my chair and I was listening in the church to what was being said. And it was, she was an absolutely amazing lady. Renae:  I was like, it would just, it just puts everything into perspective for me again about my goodness, I get one life to live. I want to live my life. I don't want to worry about these additional pressures that I invite into my life. And so tying that all back to the initial conversation about like, about the images that we're seeing out there, I think it's healing. We just need to be mindful of how much energy we're investing into it. Cause when you're dying, we're not going to think, "Oh, I wish I posted more photos of, you know, of my body doing this." And yet at the same time we want to be like, I feel comfortable because I did see women in their bodies, right? So- Jen: Yeah. Right. That's a perfect response. Annie: I want to be mindful of our listeners times here. And I know I have, I'm looking at the outline and I have questions that I still wanted to ask you. So what I would love to do is invite you back next month. How's that sound? Renae:  Great. Annie: Like we said at the beginning, we could talk about this forever and ever. But before we pop off, I know that you have a special gift for our listeners. Do you want to tell them about that? Renae:  Yes, I would if I, for anybody that's listening, if you would like to be trained in Free to Be our research based curriculum, it helps, it's for youth in grades five, six, seven and eight. It helps develop media literacy, cultivate their individual and their group strengths. It really helps with developing gratitude and just a whole, it's a six session program and I want to be able to offer any listener that's out there 30% off the curriculum so you can use the discount code. I believe it's FreeToBeBalanced and I don't know if you're going to link to that in the show notes or anything like that. And so that we can take this conversation outside of, you know, this wonderful podcast and you can actually start to have these conversations with your kids and you can even potentially have your, if you're a teacher you can be trained to run it in your school. And so that we can continue to spread this impact wider because I do just think that there's such a powerful shift that's happening now with the conversations that we are happening and people are wanting and especially kids, they want to have these conversations. And so you are welcome to use a discount code FreeToBeBalanced and to get 30% off the curriculum. Annie:  That's so awesome. Thank you so much. Jen:  Yeah! Annie: So excited. We're changing the world. Renae: Yes we are. Annie:  Okay. Well thank you so much for joining us. We have to come. I want you to come back because I know Jen in particular to had a great question about addressing all of these topics with boys and if there's any differences that we need to be mindful of in our approach and our discussion and our topics. And, because you do work with boys and girls, which I think is really great that this, your program is not just for females. So, we'd love to have you back. We'll set up a time and continue this talk. Okay? Renae: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Jen: Thanks Renae. Bye. Annie:  This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

Emotional eating can be a real challenge in finding balance. Sometimes there is a sense of helplessness to it. In today’s podcast, Josh Hillis shares his emotional eating coaching strategy to help our listeners find new ways to cope with stress that doesn’t always revolve around food. What you’ll hear in this episode: How effective are cravings control strategies when you have emotional eating issues? Is the answer to emotional eating more control? The emotional release effect when you emotionally eat after tight control The role of acceptance in emotional eating Normalizing the existence of uncomfortable emotions. Diffusing uncomfortable emotions - what does that mean? Gaining perspective around the perceived urgency of feelings The role of mindfulness in managing negative emotions Defining emotional or disinhibited eating Learning to let the monsters ride the bus Being in the driver's seat of how you deal with feelings Introducing a waiting period to delay emotional eating The value of taking time to identify feelings Ways to scale and create distance between you and your feelings Three ways to feel comfortable with your feelings without using food Managing expectations of emotional eating - moving past all or nothing Psychological flexibility as a goal, defined. Identifying and being aware of your “monsters” Thought suppression and the health and wellness industry sales tactics Frequency and emotional eating Rules vs Self-Loving Guidelines Tracking progress - things you can track   Resources: Josh’s Blog Fat Loss Happens On Monday Everything You Know About Emotional Eating is Wrong - blog post Annie quotes Mothers, Daughters and Body Image - Hillary McBride’s book Getting Older: Hillary Mcbride On Women And Aging Episode 13: How Your Body Image Impacts Your Children With Hillary Mcbride Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we have coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. I am so excited for today's guest because today's incredibly smart and talented guest goes way back with Balance365, so far back in fact that he knew Lauren, Jen and I before we were even a business. Josh Hillis has been a longtime friend and mentor to the three of us and I'm so excited for you to hear his wisdom on today's episode. Josh helps people beat emotional eating using a skill-based not diet-based approach that allows people to create a new relationship with their bodies and food and get results that have previously never been possible. Josh is the author of Fat Loss Happens on Monday and the upcoming lean and strong and yet untitled emotional eating book coming out in 2020. Josh has been writing for his blog losestubbornfat.com since 2004 and he currently attends MSU Denver and is doing his thesis on contextual behavioral science and emotional eating. He's the perfect guest for this topic. The current standard answer to emotional eating and the health and fitness industry encourages individuals to just have more control, more control over their diet, over their thoughts, over their emotions, more control over your cravings. But on today's episode, Josh shares why that advice usually doesn't work. For those who struggle with emotional eating and provides multiple practical tools to help you overcome it, I think you're going to love it and joy. Annie: Josh, welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. We're so happy to have you. You go way back with our team like way, way back. How are you? Josh: I'm good. How are you guys? It's so cool to see you guys again. Annie: I know, like, we're still, like, we're still together. The last time we were Facetiming was under a little bit different context. We were Healthy Habits Happy Moms then and we were, you've kind of helped us mentor us as far as like habits and skills and philosophies and you're just a really great coach. Just flat out really great. Josh: Thank you. From you guys, that's awesome. Annie: So we're so happy to have you and Jen and Lauren are here too. How are you guys? Jen: Hi- Lauren: Good. Josh goes way back to like before we were even a thing. Jen: We met Josh the same time we met each other. Lauren: Yeah. Josh: Wow. Jen: Years ago. Annie: Yeah. Josh: Oh Wow. That's awesome. That's amazing. Annie: So you're kind of a big deal to us, are we making you uncomfortable yet? Josh: That's awesome. Jen: When our book comes out we're going to have a page for acknowledgements and I was just telling the girls last week, like Josh Hillis is going to be my number one acknowledgement. Josh: Are you serious? Jen: Yeah, just like all your work and your blog, like it's been so insanely helpful to me. And even just watching you in conversation with people, like, as creepy as that sounds, but just how you handle people, how it's just and you're just so objective and, and really what we try to embody at Balance365 as far as there's no right one right way for every single person and just being open to tools and helping people build a, just a more varied toolbox and they currently have for their health and wellness. Jen: And also the other big thing that we come up against is that, because we're all about self acceptance and embracing oneself, we also often get lumped into a segment of this industry that we all know about, which is basically the anti weight loss movement, which is like weight loss is so bad. Why? Like nobody better talk about this. And a lot of dietitians are on that train as well as psychologists. And so it's just, it's like frightening for me at times. And I found myself questioning, you know, cause you go to the, you see these other professionals and you're like, "Oh man, like, she makes a good point, like what's?" And you've question your own values and what, but ultimately we have risen as like, look, we're just, we're just trying to take a messy middle approach. And there is really nothing inherently wrong with weight loss, changing your behaviors. Jen: And I so appreciate that and you, because I see you as a real leader and professional, not just in the health and wellness industry. Well the health and fitness industry I should say, but you are now a part of the psychology industry. Lauren: Say, "Hey, this is okay. Come on" Annie: And you're not a jerk. Like you're not, like you're not out there shaming people and you're like still able to like help them achieve the goals that they have in a really like compassionate, positive way, which is awesome. Jen: Yeah. And you've got a couple of clients I was reading yesterday on your page that you have a couple of clients that have lost over a hundred pounds. That's like, that's a, that's a life changing, values altering like those clients, like you've totally changed their lives. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Annie: So now are you uncomfortable? Josh: No, this is like the coolest, most thoughtful, most wonderful compliments I could ever get because you guys are acknowledging me for the things that I've worked the hardest at and that mean the most to me, like in the world. So I totally appreciate it. I totally, totally, totally appreciate it. Annie: Yay. Well, we're like, we can just be your ultimate hype women when you're having a bad day. You can give us a call. Okay. Josh: Can you guys introduce me on every podcast? Annie: We can. But peaking of podcasts, we should probably talk about the topic that I, that you actually wanted to talk about because we've been trying to get you on the show for a while and you're a busy guy. So, when I said, are there any topics that you wanted to jam on and you were like emotional eating, like top on your list. So what is it about emotional eating that you love so much? Josh: I think, so a couple of different things, on like the bigger, like zoomed out level, I think it's access to making the kind of difference that I want to make with people. If they can get, what's really neat is if someone really struggles with emotional eating and they can get that under control it tends to spiral out into other areas of their lives and they have like better relationships and do better at work. I mean like it's, it's really like I don't coach any of that stuff and that kind of thing shows up. The other thing that I like about it is I think it's a place where people feel so out of control and they feel like they can't be this kind of person that they want to be and like they're like, they're being driven by this other thing. And so I like it cause I want to put them back in the driver's seat. and then also the framework that I study, which is contextual behavioral science is just really good for that. And so that's- Annie: I think it's great because I, you have, you have an incredible blog. One of the blog posts you shared with me, you noted that the typical response in the fitness industry to emotional eating is like control, like just control more things and then like, you'll be fine. And,in order to control emotional eating, individuals just they need to control their diet, then control their thoughts, their emotions, their cravings, and you think that that's pretty much crap. Josh: Yeah. Annie: So tell us why, why do you think it's crap? Tell us more. I mean, we agree. Josh: Yeah. So, one thing I just want to preface this with, because it's the most surprising cause I do think it's totally crap and I've gone that way for a while, but I was really surprised this year that I found some studies where they separated out people that had a high degree of emotional eating and cravings, eating and external eating, which is like, you see food and you want it versus people that scored really low on that. And for the people that scored really low on that control was actually fine. Control actually totally worked just just fine. But that's not the clients that I get, you know, they don't hear me. So, the flip side is that control, if you do have issues with cravings or emotional eating, tired eating or and you're procrastinating or any of those things, then control will have an opposite effect. If it works, it always rebounds and the rebound is always, pretty un-fun. Like people really feel like a really, really bad loss of loss of control and they feel kind of gross and they don't feel good about themselves. Jen: So it's sort of that the more tightly wound you are, the faster, harder you'll spin out. And applied to eating, I think people get that release, like they're so tightly wound around food trying to control everything then getting out of control, they just, I mean in the moment it's like a release, right? Josh: Yeah. So you bring up these two really big points. Oh man, it's so cool. So on one hand you've got this like rule based way of living and the problem with having a totally rule based way of living is you break the rule and you're like, I'm off. I'm like explode. Like do it all because this is the last time ever. So, there's that huge like explosion release thing there. And then the other side is that, like, food really does work temporarily for numbing emotions. So, those two things kind of spiral together where people, like, break the rule and they're like, "Oh no, I'm, I'm off my diet and I'm going to go into all the things." And then they start to feel guilty about it. And then they actually are eating to numb the guilty feelings they have about breaking the rules. It's like- Jen: layer one and layer two. Lauren: Wow. The plot thickens. Josh: Totally. Annie: So I understand if you have emotional eating issues or cravings control strategies backfire, like they aren't helpful. What does work? Josh: Great question. So, it kind of all fits in the world of like acceptance based strategies and I get, I like, I have some clients to kind of freak out when I say, like, "acceptance", you know, cause they're like, "I don't want to accept." But that's just kind of like a family of strategies. And what kind of falls inside of that is, the first thing is actually normalizing. It's just recognizing every single time that you have uncomfortable thoughts and uncomfortable emotions, that it's normal to have uncomfortable thoughts, uncomfortable emotions and, like, the foundation is people, like, believe that that's not okay. You know, cause they've heard so much about, like, positive thinking or controlling their thoughts or all of these things or they were, maybe it wasn't cool growing up for them to have emotions or whatever. Josh: But for whatever reason, they think they're supposed to be a shiny, happy person. And just recognizing it's normal to feel sad sometimes. And the number of coaching calls I get on where something really bad happens to someone and I have to say like, "It's okay. It's okay to feel to feel bad. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay. It's okay to have all these feelings." So recognize that it's okay and normal and healthy. Sometimes we can even pair with, well, that's jumping to the next thing. So the next thing is getting a little bit of distance from uncomfortable thoughts and emotions, in act and acceptance commitment training they call it diffusion or fusion. So if you're fused with your thoughts, you feel like they're coming from you, you feel like they're true or true or false, and you feel like there are a command, you feel like there like something that like urgently needs to be fixed. Josh: Diffusion is getting enough enough distance from your thoughts. You can see that like these thoughts might have come from my parents or the media or magazines or whatever. But like, my automatic thoughts aren't me. Right. They aren't true or not true. They're just thoughts. They aren't an urgent problem that needs to be fixed, right? It's normal to have these thoughts and feeling and so diffusion is a matter of, if people have done any kind of like meditation or mindfulness and like, noticing your thoughts and like not so that's where people get caught up. A lot of people have done, I've tried to meditate or do mindfulness in such a way that they were trying to change their thoughts and not have thoughts. So, it's not that, but it's like being able to notice like, "Oh, here are these thoughts and these emotions." Josh: And it could be as simple as saying, "I notice I'm having the thought that blank" versus just treating the thought like it's true. Or probably a little later we'll get to, there's a metaphor for all this called, let the monsters ride the bus and it will kind of pull this together, but, basically get it, get enough distance from those thoughts that you can be with them and that they're not driving and then the third thing is you've got to drive. Like you're the bus driver, but like you can have these thoughts and still take actions that fit your values in your life. And then the last thing is that requires having actually, like, clarified your values. Jen: Right? Right. Annie: This is like my therapy. This is what I discuss with my therapist. Josh: Do you have an acts therapist? Annie: I don't know. But there's, it does feel very similar into that, like just acknowledging like, these are my thoughts. These are my emotions. What is this? Where did this come from? I don't have to act on them. I can just acknowledge them and, and then sitting with them, not like trying to numb them, not trying to run away from them or like avoid them. Yeah. Lauren: I've realized recently that my, I'm very prone to, what did you say? Fusion? Josh: Yeah. Lauren: Where I'm like, this is my thought and I have to fix it right now. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jen: We know that about you. Annie: We could've told you that, Lauren. Jen: She's doing that thing again. Lauren: Well, I recently found this about myself. Jen: This is like my inner Spock. Like when my inner Spock is like, "Halt." You know what I mean? When we have to, "Let's analyze this." Yeah. Annie: So, okay, so Josh, what does this, what does this look like? So people have stress, they have an emotion. They have like, I mean, it could be emotional eating, it can be a wide continuum of emotions. It could be happy. It could be- Jen: We didn't define emotional eating either at the beginning. Annie: Yeah. Do you have a definition, Josh, that you, or a way to define emotional eating? Josh: So most of what I'm looking at is disinhibited eating. So that's, like, a feeling of loss of control with food related to strong emotions, good or bad? Good, good or bad. Wanted or unwanted would probably be more accurate, external, like, seeing things and cravings and so it'd be eating in response to any of those things. With my clients I also lump in, to me it's all the same thing. I also lump in procrastination eating, tiredness eating. Those are the other two. Yeah. Annie: Tiredness eating being that you eat when you're tired. Josh: Yeah. Annie: That's me. Annie: I do that I think. Yeah. Okay, so you experience these emotions, any of them. And then you have a behavior around food. Is that- Josh: Yeah. Annie: Any behavior or it could be a wider range of behaviors? Josh: Oh, it's typically like feeling some degree of loss of control. Like you're not, you don't feel like you're choosing to eat the Brownie, like, I woke up and there was brownies everywhere. Jen: It would be different than happy eating cause we had someone in Balance365. I feel like her emotional eating was out of control. She ate when she was sad, but she also ate when she was happy. But it's more of a loss of control aspect to it. Not a, "Oh, I'm so happy. Let's grab a cake. Celebrate." It's right. Josh: Yeah. It's not, "Let's have a bottle of wine at on date night." It's not, "It's my grandma's hundredth birthday. I'm going to have a chocolate cake." It's not that at all. Should I get into stuff like what, what we do about it? Annie: Yeah. Go for it. Jen: If you want to. Josh: So the simplest thing to do is to put in a waiting period. Right. Could be waiting. 10 minutes, could be waiting a minute. Does it matter? All we're trying to do is they've got this really, really ingrained pattern of have an emotion, eat and if we can separate that, we're good. So that means, like, if I've got clients with pretty legit emotional eating problems, we'll start off with, they have an emotion. They wait 10 minutes, they eat the thing anyway, almost every time. That's fine. We can totally start there. Jen: Progress being the waiting period. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. So, the progress is it's not automatic, they might have to like struggle with it for that 10 minutes or they might have to think about it for that 10 minutes, but at some point, but they've got enough time, they get to choose in that case where they're having it all the time, they don't, they don't have a lot of choice. But it's at least we're breaking that pattern where it's automatic, where they might not even know what they're feeling. They might not even know what they're thinking. Which is actually really common, which is really, which is why, another really, so things you can put in that 10 minutes, you can put it in like looking at a feelings wheel and being able to just like pick out this is what I'm feeling, which actually creates some diffusion that creates some separation. And there's something really magical about people being able to figure out like going from, "I feel bad" to "Oh, I'm sad. I'm sad because this the, you know, my boss yelled at me and that sucks." Right? Maybe it's normal to feel sad when my boss yells at me or whatever. Jen: I do this with my kids like they, but Brene Brown talks about how she has some research that shows, she's done research on college age students and they can only, they only identify three emotions and that's like- Josh: Really? which ones? Jen: Happy, mad and sad. And so she talks about how, you know, in order to be in touch with our emotions, we need to be able to identify emotions and we just aren't taught how to identify. I do this with my kids and we, like, talk about all these different range of emotions outside of mad, sad and happy because you can feel so many different things. But it's so interesting for you to talk about this because I also see so much child psychology stuff that actually applies to two grown ass adults as well. Like we need, you know what I mean, because we weren't taught in childhood. So it, yeah. So it needs to be brought in. Josh: All of the emotion regulation stuff for kids I use with adults. It's awesome. Annie: There's Josh Hillis' coaching secret. Kid psychology. Jen: Go grab your feelings wheel. Annie: Where are you on the spectrum? Jen: Next time Lauren has a meltdown I'm going to say "Go grab your feelings wheel." Annie: All of our slack community, our corporate communication is now going to be, "I feel because" statements, so Josh, you, so you create some distance, you identify some feelings or what your feelings, you get really clear on what that is and then you can eat the thing if you want to still, right? Josh: Yeah. And so they're sort of like these, like, kind of guideline-y things, like waiting 10 minutes. Another like guideline-y thing that I'll start off with, like, either don't do it, do whatever you want. If someone is eating the thing every time then we'll add in like a 50% guideline where 50% of the time they'll eat the thing and 50% of the time they'll find something else. And again, that's just sort of like some training wheels to have to like think about it and choose and be like, you know what, I ate the thing three days in a row. Maybe today I should try going for a walk. Jen: Right, right. Annie: And the point is to really just disrupt the autopilot, right? Josh: Yeah, yeah. Jen: Yes. Right. And also sounds like scaling a little bit. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jen: Rather than, again, what we see big, big, big problem is people try to go from zero to 60 and it never works. It never works. And Lauren had a really good idea for bridging the emotional eating gap. She said if eating a piece of cake is your coping mechanism, try pair it with a bath, go eat your cake in the bath, and then eventually your association can be more, can become about the bath and then remove the cake and then have it be about the bath, right? It's about scaling that towards a healthier coping mechanism. Josh: That's awesome. Jen: Yes. Go Lauren. Annie: Are there, Josh, do you have any other ways to create distance or to even just feel comfortable feeling your feelings without food? Josh: Yeah. So there's always going to be three different things that you can do, three different effective things. One is you can create distance and just sit with it. Like, just accept this is normal. Right? And a lot of times that's really cool. If you're in a situation where you can't do something else, right, Like maybe you're at work and you've got to keep working, and so what you do is you notice those feelings and you come back to being present with your work or your family or whatever's going on around you. Like, you actually get present with that. The other thing would be to have a menu of different self care things that you can do. And so you notice you have those feelings and then you take a walk or do some deep breathing or take a bath or read a book or whatever. At this point I think I've got a list of like 70 different things in like 15 categories. Jen: I want to just say one thing for the moms who listen and the dads, when I find myself emotionally eating, my kids are often a trigger and alternative forms of self care are not available to me. Right? Like I can't go take, I can't check out of parenting and go take a bath or even go meditate or whatever. And so sometimes I'm just freaking eat a bowl of chips. One thing I would say is that I've scaled it from diving headfirst into a bag of chips to like getting out a little bowl and putting some chips in there and then just eating them and going, "Yeah." So I would say like, I mean my emotional eating skills are not, but they have greatly improved over the years. Josh: Well look at that. So there's a couple of great things about what you just said, right. Number one, parenting is a great context for, like, being able to just, like, accept it and be there. Also, you, you did look at, like, separating out the chips and, like, having a certain amount versus just, like, grabbing from the bag, which works for all kinds of treats all across the board. And then the third thing that that brings up is, it's actually, and this is another thing that's such an important thing. It's normal to eat to chill out your emotions sometimes. Jen: I totally agree. I don't think the goal is like 0% emotional eating. It's like, really, how often are you doing it and how, what is the loss of control there, right? Rather than- Josh: Yeah. Jen: Like emotional eating isn't all bad and it's like, really? Is it? Josh: Yeah. Jen: A couple of chips when my kids are losing it? Is that so bad. Annie: Is it problematic for you? Josh: Oh, and it's one those things where like, like the goal is psychological flexibility. So psychological flexibility is the ability to make different choices. Right. It's just an ability to make different choices. Jen: Right. Right. Josh: Like, never emotionally eating is rigid. Jen: Totally. Josh: Always having to, like, where most of my clients had is they've got like a rule, they don't, they don't say it as a rule, but like they've got a rule that if they have emotions they eat, totally rigid. Jen: Right. Josh: If we can get in the middle we're rocking. Jen: Totally. Yes. Annie: That sounds so familiar, Jen. Jen: The messy middle, yes. That's where we like to hang. Josh: I loved that so much. That is like the best phrase in the world. Jen: Brene Brown, I've brought her up a few times now. You can see I really like her. Josh: I like her too. Annie: But- Jen: Yeah, she talks about being in the messy middle, but when you're in the messy middle you get arrows from both sides, which we have also experienced as well. Being in the messy middle between hardcore health and fitness and hardcore body positive anti weight loss. Hanging out in the middle is can be quite lonely and you can get arrows from both sides. But- Josh: I get that. Annie: Okay. So say you're finding yourself, like, face deep in, like, cake or chips or whatever it is and you're, like, you have this, like, moment of, like, "Whoa, what am I doing?" Josh: Yeah. Annie: Like you're like in this middle, like an emotional eating extravaganza. Josh: Yeah. Annie: What do you do? Do the same thing, like, create some distance still or are there different rules? Josh: Oh no, that's, you nailed it already. It's the exact same rules. So, you notice you're in the middle, you separate yourself from it geographically. You give yourself some time to think about it. You do some sort of diffusion exercise. Whether that's, well, where I talked about, like, a feelings wheel, but also I've got some clients that will journal, they'll write out everything that they're feeling and just writing it out gives them a lot of distance. The biggest thing my clients use actually a metaphor called "let the monsters ride the bus" so we might as well dive into that now. So, it's a really, really common act metaphor and the metaphor is, you're a driving a bus and sometimes you get really cool passengers that get on the bus and they're like, "hey, you're great and we love you and high five!" Like that. Josh: And they get on and off when they want. And sometimes they get monsters, they get on the bus, they're like, "Hey, you're ugly and stupid and you always do it wrong" and they get on and off when they want. And your job as the bus driver is to drive the bus and you could always make a left turn towards, like, numbing and controlling, or you can make a right turn towards your valued actions. And what this allows people to do is allows people to realize like, "Hey, I've got these monsters that will get on, will ride along with me and I can still take a right turn towards my values. Even with the monsters on the bus. Like, my job isn't to get rid of the monsters. It's not to not have monsters. It's to let the monsters ride the bus." Josh: And my clients have identified, they almost always have identified, like, what their most common monsters are. And my clients get to a point where they have identified the monsters that they have in the middle of emotional eating. I've got a lot of clients that have a monster that's like, "One more will be fine, one more will be fine, one more will be fine." Or they might have a monster that's like, "You've already ruined it. Might as well go for broke. Let's start again Monday." And so when they have those feelings, again, they don't treat them as true. They don't treat them as, like, them. They're like, "Oh, there's that monster again. And that guy can ride along the bus. And I know that when I'm in, when I catch myself in the middle, my monsters are super loud." Annie: Are you familiar with Pema Chodron's work? She's a Buddhist nun. Josh: No. Annie: This is feels very similar because you have in that blog post, and I think, I think I pulled this quote from your blog posts it said, "The irony is that when people accept cravings as being normal" or I'm assuming these uncomfortable emotions, "they have an increased capacity to tolerate cravings" and that's just very similar to her work. That's like you actually, by just acknowledging the feelings and emotions you suffer less, like, and that's, like, instead of trying to avoid it or like do all these things like this contortionists, like, "I'm going to avoid it in any way possible. I'm going to do all these things so I don't have to feel the thing that I'm trying to avoid feeling." If you just like feel it and like acknowledge it, like, "I see you, monster, you're on the bus, I hear you, but I'm not going to listen or I'm not, you know, whatever." Josh: Yeah. Annie: It's like you can still take action as you notice, what did you, how did you say, that aligns with your values? Josh: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. Even though you hear them, even though they're on the bus- Josh: You nail. Yeah. Yes. The same. And that's a really, really, really big. So, here's the paradox there. You're 1000% right. The paradox is that when you allow the monsters to be there, it is a lot less painful and it's a lot less intense. The paradox is that you don't want to approach it as, "I'm going to allow the monsters" to like force it to be less intense because then it doesn't work. And so that's not actually doing it. But what you're talking about, which is really cool, it's really, really cool, is that there's two kinds of pain. There is normal human pain, which is like the feelings and an uncomfortable thoughts that we all have. And then there's like the added pain that comes from trying to, like, control and fore and not, you know, and so, you do get to avoid all of the added pain and you're not the first person to be, like, you know, there's this Buddhist that kind of sounds a lot like these acceptance and commitment training people. Annie: Well I think it's, I think it's, I don't know if it's just the universe, like, I've been doing kind of this emotional work to like make these messages become really clear to me. But it seems like I've been trying to, and I've talked about this on other podcasts, outsource feeling good or feeling great all the time. Like you said, like we get this message that like, "Maybe I shouldn't be feeling these things" or like "Everyone else feels great all the time and they never have bad days" or "They never have self-doubt" or they never have body image issues. And it's like, "That's actually just not the case. Like, just acknowledging that like you get to feel all the things and you still live, we're going to be okay," like that. It's like, that feels really powerful to me. But I like that you say like, I love that analogy of let the monsters ride the bus. I could see that becoming a big phrase in our community. Can't you Jen? Jen: Yeah, I was already picturing it as a hashtag soon. Josh: That's awesome. Jen: The other thing is I think when I was hearing you say, Josh, is because we have this other guests, she's been on twice now. Her name is Hillary McBride. We have to, we're going to call her Doctor Hillary McBride soon cause she's almost done her Phd and she is also psychologist and she works in body image and she has a book called Mothers, Daughters and Body Image. And so she has sort of encouraged the same process as far as thoughts about your body, like kind of stepping outside of it. But, and then I think her version of monsters on the bus is to acknowledge the monsters on the bus. But to say, is this really true? Just that simple question, is this really true? And I just sort of have this vision of being a driver on a bus hearing all the monsters in the back, but being able to say, "Is that true? Like, do I have to do that? Am I, you know, am I helpless to this? Is that true?" And you know, the answer is often, like, "No, it's not actually true." And then you can kind of just, yeah. Keep doing what you were doing. Josh: Yeah. Jen: Yeah. Josh: Just to, like, it's, like, notice. Jen: Yeah, just notice. Yeah. Josh: Like it's, it doesn't, yeah. Cause we, it is so normal for us to treat it like it's true. Like it's, like, it's so true. Jen: Right. It feels true. Right? Josh: That's awesome. Annie: Okay. So Josh, we discussed, being aware, creating distance, normalizing the experiencing of different emotions. Is there anything else that comes to mind when I'm addressing emotional eating? And again, I do want to recap that this is like as you, as you said at the beginning, that those are tools that work for people that have emotional eating issues. If you don't have emotional eating issues then, like- Josh: You probably don't have to- Annie: Then it doesn't apply. Or what was the difference that you said? That thought control or thought suppression would work for people that,- Josh: yeah. So, here's where it gets really funny. Cause I got really spun whenever the research that thought suppression worked for cravings and emotional eating for people that don't have cravings and emotional eating issues. And but, like, at first I was like, "thought suppression is always bad. Like how does that work?" And so I actually talked to my friend, Amy Evans, who's this brilliant behavioral analyst and she's like, "Well, of course not because the function is different, right? So if the function of that controllers is trying to like push away these uncomfortable emotions and cravings, then it's like an avoidance strategy. But if you don't have issues with those, then it's actually kind of like, maybe it's just like conscientiousness, right? Like it's a totally different thing." And I'm like, "Oh!" So it's good to have genius friends. Jen: Right? So can you give us an example in context? So person A doesn't have ongoing emotional eating issues, so we're talking about, but then something, a craving pops up or, or they're feeling emotional and they're feeling some kind of urge to eat if they don't struggle with ongoing emotional eating issues, then suppression works. Josh: Apparently. Yeah. I mean I don't coach that, but in the, in the research, yeah. Jen: So what would suppression look like for them? Josh: Yes. So, I'm guessing if they didn't score very highly than it's just a simple guideline that they're just like, "Oh, I don't, I don't eat between meals." I don't eat from the, you know, which is, which is totally fine. Jen: Right? Yeah. We call these self-loving guidelines in Balance365. They're not rules. They're flexible guidelines that keep you in a place of self care kind of thing. Josh: Yeah. So like- Annie: Oh, sorry, go ahead, Josh. Josh: I was just going to say if someone doesn't score really high on cravings and they have a little craving, it's pretty easy for them to go like, "Oh, I'm not going to do that." Jen: Right. Josh: "If someone scores really high on cravings- Jen: Then it's a bigger deal to say, "No, I'm not doing that." Yeah. Okay. Annie: I think it's important to note though, as you noted, as we noted in the beginning of the podcast is that that can work for some people, but right now the majority of the health and fitness industry are selling thought suppression. Josh: Yeah. Annie: To everyone. Like, that is, like, the widely accepted common answer versus, "Hey, like, maybe this is normal." Jen: They're also selling emotional eating at any point as as unacceptable. And so, you know, a person who is has an emotional eating episode one day, that's, you know, we're trying to say in this podcast that that's not wrong. And really, if you don't struggle with emotional eating, whether you do or don't engage in emotional eating is not a make or break for anyone's life. Right. It's not, whether you choose the chips or don't, it's just not really an issue. Like it's really a small, tiny little rock that really, you know what I mean? Like we're talking about, there's people that have real loss of control that going on, you know, sometimes daily for them around emotional eating. So, and it comes down to the frequency. How often are you engaging in these behaviors and ultimately what does that end up? What does that look like for you? After three months, 12 months, three years, 20 years, right? Josh: Frequency's everything. Jen: Right. Annie: Josh, you're so much fun to have on our podcast. Do you have more? Josh: Can I throw one other thing out there? The other thing that, the biggest misconception that I've gotten when I've talked to people about this and I've got it so much that I want to make sure not to miss it. This is still a behavioral approach, right? Like they're like, "Oh, you're like deal with your thoughts and like that" but you still, like, you still have to clarify your values and attach behaviors to that. But it's like, so self love guidelines was that? Jen: Self loving guidelines. Josh: Self loving guidelines, or like kind of like more, more intuitive skills or like, all these different things. The whole point of all this is to be able to do those things more frequently. Jen: Right? Josh: Right. So, all of my clients, I shouldn't say all of my clients. The majority of my clients track behaviors, right? So they track how often they have like a mostly balanced meal or how often they have vegetables or how often they, you know, snacked between meals or how often they noticed their hunger before they ate or how, you know, like how often they were full and stopped and like, they track actual behaviors and things that we can count the real world. Monsters on the bus is another thing that they track and count how often they use it. They also track if they didn't need it, like, "Oh, I didn't need it today," but- Jen: Oh interesting. Josh: If they're like, "Oh, I didn't need it and I used it" or "I didn't need it and I didn't use it." Those would be different things and it seems really weird maybe to use like a metaphor as a behavior to track, but it works really well. Jen: So ultimately you're tracking, the behavior change that you have people track is not necessarily emotional eating episodes, but how they dealt with those, whether they dealt with it in a manner that is more healthy than bingeing. Josh: Yeah. Jen: Right. Okay. Josh: Yeah. And so that could look really differently for a lot of different people, but it's like how often did you use this metaphor? How often would you use a diffusion technique? How often did you use your menu of things you can do? Jen: Right, right, right. Annie: Great. So, so you're putting behaviors with it. That's great. Josh: That's what grounds it in the real world. Annie: Yeah. Josh: Otherwise it goes way. Jen: Josh had a thread on his page, several months ago where you said, "sometimes I think" as far as your weight loss clients, you said "If we changed nothing at all except working on stress reduction methods, people would lose weight without changing anything at all." And then I had mentioned or just sleep, like, just a sleep habit, which is, you know, kind of goes hand in hand with stress- Josh: So good. Jen: Isn't it? So it just sort of like, yeah. So imagine if people just, so what we find is people hyperfocus on food, like they just are hyper focused on it and if you zoom out and you get back, if you just laid your foundations for say stress reduction, better sleep hygiene, anything you identify that helps your wellness wheel go, the food just doesn't matter. People will kind of eat until they're satisfied. Do you know what I mean? Like it's often these, the overeating tendencies we have are often a result of these high stress, sleep deprived, poor coping mechanism, lifestyles that we're living, the rest of the overeating issue. You don't have to be so hyper focused on the food or crank the wheel to the right and jump on the Keto wagon or cause you're really never getting to the underlying issues of why you're overeating in the first place. Right? Josh: Yeah. With my most successful clients, all these things we're doing show up as self care. Jen: Right. Totally. Josh: And it's like, and then the people that struggle are the ones that keep trying to do it as punishment. Jen: The food, the food. Yeah, totally. Josh: And the thing about sleep is no one makes phenomenally great food decisions when they're exhausted. Jen: Nobody. That's right. Yeah. Josh: I will throw out there in case there's any people that work like swing shifts or anything like that out there. For a while I had a ton of clients that were nurses that worked overnight and so for them, a lot of it was just acceptance of every time their schedule shifted they were going to be like unusually hungry. And so that is workable. But for everyone else, if we can just turn off screens like an hour earlier, like, man, this all gets easier. Jen: Totally. We just interviewed a sleep doctor before we interviewed you. Josh: Oh really? Annie: Yeah. He said the same thing. Jen: Same thing. Our podcast is the best. Josh: Your podcast is the best. This was so much fun. Annie: Are you always this energetic? I mean, every time, I've talked to you twice in five years, like you always have such great energy about you- Jen: And smiling. You're always smiling. Josh: You're super great. It's fun hanging out with you guys. Annie: You are welcome back here anytime. Josh: Also, this is, like, my favorite stuff to talk about. Annie: So yeah, you are, you're welcome back here. Anytime. Anything, any projects you're working on that you want to tell us about or where can we, where can our listeners find you or keep up with your work? Jen: You're working on a million books. Josh: I am working on a million books, so, losestomachfat.com is still my blog. I still do celebrity workout stuff and emotionally eating research, which is now a weird combination. I've got two books coming out. Lean Is Strong is coming out at the end of this year. And then the untitled emotional eating book is coming out next year. And that's my big stuff right now. It's top secret. Annie: Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Alright, well thank you so much, Josh. Josh: Thank you. Annie: We will talk soon, hopefully. Josh: Okay, cool. Thanks guys. Annie: Thanks. This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

The Member Spotlight Mini Series continues as Jen and Annie interview Beth, a long-time Balance365 members whose daily gym selfies help keep other community members stay motivated. Beth is one of the amazing women in the Balance365 community - tune in for her inspiring, down to earth perspective on healthy habits and the good that comes from them that goes far beyond weight loss.     What you’ll hear in this episode: What was going on for Beth when she joined How Beth found the Balance365/Healthy Habits Happy Moms community Getting past when you get “stuck” The habit that made the biggest difference for Beth Meal planning for a season - Beth’s approach Why Beth does daily gym selfies How Beth found habits became wellness snowballs The role of mutual support between women on social media Feminism and weight loss The problem with goal weights Setting goals you can control vs goals you can influence Beth’s advice to anyone on the fence about Balance365 Beth’s advice to anyone feeling stuck about starting the program Weight loss of a byproduct and the other benefits of eating in a balanced way Moderation as a way to reclaim the body you were meant to have Balanced eating as a way to manage existing health conditions The role of the diet industry in weight gain   Resources: New Jeans And Vacation Without Shame: Sarah’s Story Small, Sustainable Changes: A Balance365 Journey With Danica How To Fall In Love With Exercise, Even If You Hate It Vivienne McMaster Episode 21: Before You Delete – How To Handle A Photo You Hate Beth’s Instagram Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Balance365 Life radio. We are back today with our mini series called Members Spotlights. This allows us to introduce you to Balance365 community members who are just killing it inside the program so you can take their wisdom and stories and learn from them. They are busy women and moms just like you who are changing their habits, their mindsets and reaching their goals. Today you're going to hear from one Balance365 member who is determined to find changes she could make that produce results without taking over her life. Beth is a seasoned member of our community and is a self-proclaimed member of the slow starter team but since deciding to take action she has made great strides towards her goals including more balanced dinners and consistent exercise. I can't wait for you to hear more about Beth's experience. Enjoy! Beth, welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, how are you? Beth: I'm OK. How are you guys? Annie: We are golden, we're so happy to have you, we as in me and Jen. Jen's here too. Jen, how are you? Jen: Hi, good. Yes. Annie: We woke you up. You are in a beautiful house coat this morning. Lauren: My Instagram audience is quite accustomed to seeing this housecoat so all good, all good. Not ashamed! Annie: Now it's a signature look and full disclosure, I put one on my wish list. Jen: You don't have a housecoat. Annie: I don't have a housecoat. We call them a robe- Jen: That's bizarre. Annie: Beth, do you call it a housecoat or a robe? Beth:  So I call it a robe but what I wear is a housedress. Jen: Oh, I love that. Annie: That's next level, is that like a nightgown? Beth: Yep. Annie: So Jen- Jen: That's my 1950s dream, like but with rights. Annie:  I don't know how you can not get twisted when you sleep in house coats. Beth: I don't sleep in it. Jen:  Sometimes I sleep in my housecoat. It depends what's going on in my life. Beth: I keep it next to my bed so I can throw it on when I have to go deal with things but no, I'm not wearing it to bed, no. Jen: No, I wear my nighties, they're these silky long things, I don't. I just, you should try it. Annie: No, I'm good in my tank top and sweats. Jen: It's like that meme that went around with the spaghetti straps and the boobs out. Annie: Boobs falling out. Jen: That is me sleeping in a tank top. Beth: Remember when we were like "We're going to stay on topic" Annie: I know that's what I was just going to say, before we started recording we were like, I was talking about how I am pretty good at staying on topic but Jen and Beth are chatty cathies in the most wonderful way possible, they have a lot to say and whereas like, I'm going to keep these ladies on topic and look at us now. Jen: I heard you going for, I saw you going for the B word there and then your lips changed to ladies. Beth: I really respect where they were going. Annie:  You know what, the B word in my vocabulary is a term of endearment. Jen: Yes. Annie: But we have also labeled this podcast as clean which is very, very challenging for me so I feel like I deserve snaps for that. OK so, Beth, you have a long, long time member of Balance365 and you have actually been one of those women we've kind of consulted on across the years, I've called you personally and said like "Hey, what do you think of this? What's the vibe on this? What's the community feel on this? And you kind of been,  I don't know, like a good sounding board because ultimately we're here for you and our community and you've always been really in touch with our community, so thanks for joining us on the show, it's like about time we have you on. Beth:  Yay! I don't know what to say. I'm just happy to be here. Annie: OK. Well, why don't you tell us the Cliff Notes version of how you found Balance365. Beth: Sure, so my sister-in-law, who was recently featured on your podcast, Sarah, she added me to the public group without telling me and this is back in the day when you guys added people in like large groups and so one day and just all the stuff was in my feed. And I was a little bit shocked but it was a message that I really felt good about and it was close to what I was already kind of following in my own social media. So I was in the public group probably, well, you know, 6 months or so and then you guys had a, at the time again Balance365 was going all at once, people were going in groups and so I joined in September of 2016. And yeah, that's the Cliff notes version of how I ended up with y'all. Annie: In hindsight, do you think adding people to the group without telling them is a good start? Because that comes up a lot, like- Jen: That still happens. Annie: And then people, sometimes people are like "How did I get in this group and what is this?" Because our message is quite revolutionary and our opinions so to get and it's big, it's active in a really great way but as you said, when you join the group it can be a little bit like "Whoa!" Like. Beth: Yeah so I think that that strategy can backfire or it can go well, right, so I think for me it was great but I think sometimes for the community it's hard, like people adding, you know, kind of drive by adding their friends to the community, especially if your attitude is "My friend really needs to do the program because she's so crazy and won't stop talking about her bizarre diet, I'm going to add her to this group" like that's horrifying to the community, right, like, because then this person is in there being like "Let me show you my before and after,  I lost 100 pounds in 4 months and I never ate any carbs " and you're like "Ahh!" Jen: Totally and then it kind of disrupts the community and some people feel upset even, because they say "I'm in this group to get away from that kind of stuff" Annie: And then the individual can often get defensive and- Jen: Yeah, it's really difficult. I think it's better if people organically find us. Beth: In general I would agree. Annie: Or you approach your person, your friend in real life and say "Hey I've got a group I think you'd really like, would you mind if I add you? Or can I send you a link to join?" Yeah. Well, I'm so happy that Sarah added you and if you haven't listen to Sarah's podcast. Sarah has such a wonderful story too. She's had so many wins in our group and you can find her podcast, we can put that in the show notes too, she's just a gem of a woman. Jen: I enjoy her. Beth: She's my fave. Annie: Is she your only sister? Beth: She's actually my sister-in-law. We're married to twins so I met my husband in college and then I set her up with his brother. We were high school best friends. Annie: Oh that's perfect. I see what you did there, you were just trying to curate your family with people you like. Beth: No new friends. Annie: I love it and now look at you, you're on a podcast with 40,000 women. OK. So, let's let's get to it. You joined Balance365 in 2016. You purchased it a while ago but honestly, as you have been open and shared with us in our community, that it took you awhile to committing to the process and since fully committing you've experienced quite a few changes including weight loss. Can you tell us more about your experience with that? Beth: Sure, so when I joined in September 2016 I was just finishing law school. And starting a career at 35 and I really thought, like, now I'll have too much to implement some habits and lose weight and that was crazy. I don't know what I was thinking. I was entering a new field I was going from having not work a full time job in 8 or 9 years to working 50 plus hours a week so like, it really was not a perfect time for me to focus on implementing habits but I just kind of slowly would implement, like, you know, one habit halfway for 4 or 5 months and you know, dabbled, I did a lot of dabbling. "Oh maybe this is the one! Maybe this is the one! Maybe this is the one!" And there is nothing wrong with that. I actually think that a lot of women when they join program they kind of need a time of doing that. Because they've been relying on programs that project, that portion of my growth. I was stuck there for quite a while, like just about 2 years. And for me that wasn't great, like, I think I was there too long. I needed to kick start something sooner and I think, I see a lot of women in our community who sometimes have that problem, like they get to this point where they're like, "I have to completely address my sleep problem before I can address anything else or I have to completely address this one thing that I'm worried about before I can address something else and for me, I was getting stuck there. Jen: We, it's sort of like, it's like you're waiting for things to be perfect before you can start or something like "My life must look like this and then I can start" and Danica addressed this in her podcast with us as well and I mean, she had the same realisation, nothing changes unless something changes and there is never going to be a perfect time. Beth: Yeah, I, you know, I think it was not the right time, like it was not a good time for me to start when I joined the program. I'm not sad that I did it when I did. I'm happy for the time that I spent allowing myself, because I think that's the other thing is I think some of the women come in and they're, some people who come into a group in any kind of group and they're like, I paid for this and now I have to do it, right? And I think that's relatively unproductive a way to think about things because this is a lifelong experience, right? I can change my habits from now until I die. I don't have to change them all right, you know. And so I think there was a positive to be had with sitting and being like nothing is really changing and that's OK but if you, for me I was starting to feel frustrated with that, that kind of for me was the moment of being like "OK" but then as Danica said, if I don't change something, nothing will change and so for me, some of it was just identifying what kind of habit I can change that would produce a change in my life but not take over my life. I don't want a program that takes over my life. I think that's really important to me. I can't think of anything less interesting than thinking about food and exercise all day and so I needed something that I could make small change and for me that was, I just planned my dinners and then I just ate what I planned. And it's so boring and so mundane but it's what I did and it immediately resulted in changes to my body. Jen: So you were, I guess, that would be your dinner habit which is just one section of Balance365 that we have you address and did it dramatically change what you were eating or how much you were eating or? Beth: So really it was a matter of just, I think it changed the macro makeup of my- Jen: Right, the balance of it. Beth: Yeah, the balance. I was already eating all the all the correct things, I just was kind of addressing, you know, how much protein I really needed at dinner. I was looking at my dinner as a whole instead of just like, well, here's the meat and your vegetable or whatever, like, I was kind of looking at it as whole, you know,  like, "OK, what can I change? What will help me stay full? What will be satisfying? What will I be willing to eat? I am known, I suppose, in the community I meal plan once for a whole season because I hate meal planning, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. So I meal plan at the beginning of a season and then we need the same 7 dinners for 13 weeks, which is not for everyone but it works for me and so by picking things that I actually knew I would eat and that were balanced I was less likely to be like "I don't feel like eating that! I'm just going to the drive through?" or I think one big thing for me is they were easy. I picked easy things, which I will say during the 2 years when I was not actually implementing the program, I for sure would see Lauren and Annie talking about hating cooking and I would be like, "Oh come on, ladies, like, it's just not that hard, like, just, like how hard is it, right? But as I implemented this career that, you know, required, like, I have to lean on my husband a lot more to do a lot of that stuff and so planning things that I knew that at the end of the day it would be, there was chicken in the fridge and I could just take a bagged salad and throw it on top of it, like, it made it so that I would actually do it and so I just did, I just ate the dinner that I planned. I think that's so boring but it's what I did. Jen:  The thing is studies show that one of the biggest contributing factors to our food choices is convenience and so this is not it's not necessarily a flaw of humans, it's something, you know, it's population wide but we are busy people, we are very busy people and that's why meal planning works. The majority of women who work with us are actually working women, like working outside of the home, women and you know and so you know, we get it. Like, I mean, Annie, Lauren and I work so you, when it comes to supper time, you know, it's just, you know, I don't have time in my day to sit down in the morning and decide what we're having for the day and go to the grocery store and get all those ingredients and you know, I used to do that. I used to really enjoy it, like, I really did enjoy that component of being a stay at home but working, being a working mom is a whole new ballgame and yeah, meal planning can be just such a stress reducer, in a working family, I shouldn't say woman, I should say family. Bring boys in close here. Annie: You know, circling back to when you're talking about how Lauren I hate cooking. Beth: Sorry. Annie: No, no, I can own that because I don't, it's not that I can't, I mean, I can follow directions and probably cook some meals but I just don't want to, like, just like some people don't want to run or don't want to exercise or just like that's just not how I want to spend my time so that's why I really love Balance365 is because I'm not like, if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work period. And so for me to go out and buy this meal plan that requires all this cooking or all this meal prepping or all this like grocery shopping, like that's just not going to, like it to me it feels like me trying to fit a, what is it? A square peg into a round hole, like, I could maybe do that for a while, like  white knuckling, I could like stick to the plan for a little bit but eventually I'd like, that doesn't sound fun, like, that's just not like something I enjoy. So I can still balance my meals in a way that works for me that doesn't require a lot of cooking or a lot of meal prepping or on the flipside, someone that likes to cook can also do a lot of cooking with it if they want. If that's how they want to spend their time and it's like no judgment or no, neither one is better and worse than the other, it's just what works for you, period, is all we're really concerned with. Jen:  I wanted to circle back to those 2 years where you weren't inactive, that's the thing, it's not like you bought and then you were inactive, you were very active in the group particularly in, we have a spin off group and some spin off groups, I guess, it's the Facebook group that's attached to our strength program Arms like Annie and you were active in Balance365 as well as you were quite active in Arms Like Annie. So it's not that you actually didn't do anything. You implemented an exercise habit. Beth: That's true, yep, but as, I mean, we've talked about it in the community, many times, like, an exercise habit is wonderful and there's so many positive things you gain from an exercise habit, but you know, if I just change nothing about my dietary habits, my nutrition habits, you know, it may not make a big dent in my fat loss and it didn't but it did produce lots of other positives. Jen: Absolutely, there's so many, you know, I would say fat loss is the last reason to work out. I mean, that's me personally, I don't know how other people feel but there's just so many health benefits to it that you don't even have to throw fat loss on the list, so but that's so, that's wonderful for you, really, holistically to have an exercise habit nailed and then you moved on to nutrition and- Annie: You know, that's actually one of my favorite things about Beth is that she is posting her selfies, her gym selfies at ridiculous hours in the morning because sleep is, you know, a love hate thing with you sometimes, so you go to the gym in the morning by yourself and you post your selfie and half the time you're like "Look, I didn't want to do this but I'm here and now and now I feel better or now I know my day is going to like take off in a completely different direction had I hit the snooze alarm or turn off the alarm and not come at all" and I love that you own it, just like I own I don't like cooking. You don't really like exercise but you see the benefits, like, you feel better, your day goes better, the rest of your habits seem to fall in line, which you've said before, it's kind of a snowball habit, like, your day is just different when you exercise, right? Beth: Yes, that whole, yeah, there's a lot I guess I'm trying to stay on topic, there's a lot to say about my gym habit and my selfies and all of that.  I do find I don't enjoy exercise, it's not, I danced in, like, my youth, when I was pre-college I was a dancer and I loved that but I never really found that same level of enjoyment from any other kind of exercise, including like, people were like "You should take a group fitness class, that's like dance based." No thank you, I don't want to, I'm not interested. It's not the same. You know, and people are like "You should do the barre method." Please, no thank you. I will just not. I will just watch my daughters dance and I will get the same enjoyment from that and my sons. I get enjoyment from that but not with the exercise. So I am, I did, I don't like cardio at all, and so I bought Arms like Annie and I think when I bought it there might not have been a  spinoff group yet and it turned out the Facebook's spinoff group really helped me achieve consistency with my habit and I feel so ridiculous, I will be honest, like, the selfies feel ridiculous to be me most days. But so there's a couple things, I guess, on the selfie thing, one is, I was mentioned in a previous podcast about what if you hate exercise, so I do, I put selfies every day when I'm in the gym, partly to create a sense of accountability to the group that I've said I will do this and I will do it and I show up. And as weird as it feels to me because I don't think I've done anything inspirational, like, I have women both in our community and women who like follow me on Instagram who are like, they feel that it is inspirational that I get up and I go to the gym. Jen: It is. I find, sometimes I see them in the morning and I'm like "Oh, just go, Jen, just do it, Beth did it. Annie:  Beth did it, you can do it too. Beth: It's hard for me to see it as inspirational. I really try and treat my social media like, I try to treat it like a real, when I was coming, when I was having kids, I'm a little older than, my kids are older than y'all's kids and when they were coming up I found it really hard, there wasn't as much social media and I felt really alone in hating being a mom, like I hated it and I felt alone, so when I tried to put myself out on social media in any way, I tried to be really honest about who I am and how it feels. So I do say, I hate cardio, I hate that I'm here in the gym, I say "I had to talk myself into every single set I did today." And I feel like, I see that there are women who feel the same way and they do see it as inspirational that I went. It's funny because I kind of see it as just me like kvetching into the like universe but I see why people feel it's inspirational but also, I do the selfies for me. So a long time ago in the community, I think it was when I was in the public facing group, Jen had recommended something and I somehow came to to the work of Vivian McMaster, she's a photographer and she focuses on, she has programs focusing on self portraiture as part of, like, self acceptance and Annie said the same thing a number of times in the group, like, just taking pictures of ourselves and just seeing what we look like can get us to body neutrality. Jen:  We have a whole podcast, not a whole podcast but we've mentioned this in a podcast and it's the whole thing of if you don't like the way you look in photos, you shouldn't take less, you should take more and look at yourself more. You need to get used to the way you look. Beth: Yeah, so I am, I really have tried to, like, so I will say I don't post a lot of unattractive selfies of myself, I'm still extraordinarily vain. Annie: Yeah, like you're feeling yourself. Beth: But I take, literally, in a month, probably thousands of selfies, like, I met admit how narcissistic that sounds but whatever, here it is. And they are attractive and unattractive and they are from angle that look good for me and the angles that don't because when I take them and I see myself I become, like, inoculated against seeing myself. And there was a long time where I was taking a ton of gym selfies and I was feeling good because I was taking a specific angle and I was avoiding all the other angles and I went on a trip with my friends and somebody posted, you know, a picture of a group of us and "Ahhh!" It was like a wake up call that, like, OK, like, I've lost some of the honesty of this practice. And I needed to get back to taking pictures and seeing myself for what it really is and this is just my body, this is just the body that I live in and it's fine and sometimes I feel really great about it and other times I feel kind of ambivalence about the whole thing and neither of those is the right emotion, they are just how I feel in that moment and so, I, so, yeah, so I take selfies for me as well I don't just take them to be an inspiration to the community. Annie: I love it because, to me, to me it's an act of self-love and it's an expression of self-love and I think, it's, sometimes women need permission to do the same and when they see other women taking selfies at the gym from good angles, from bad angles, like, this is cute, I don't really like this but I'm going to post it anyway because this is me like it gives women the permission to do the same and in fact, along the same lines of kind of what both you and Jen were talking about is we don't really cultivate self love by just focusing on the stuff we love, it's also exploring the stuff that we maybe don't love or even the stuff we hate and like why do we hate this, what is it about this, where did this start, where did this come from? Like and how can we move through that or at least like not be so dang uncomfortable with it, like you said when you see that photo, like, "Oh my god, delete, untag, get rid of that, I don't ever want to see it again!" Like maybe just sit with it, which we have a whole another podcast on that we can link in the show notes too but yeah, so I love that about you, Beth, I love that you, you just own it and if you've ever posted a selfie on social media best sees it, she is your top hype woman. She is like, liking that stuff, she's commenting, she's responding to your story, like, "Yes, woman, yes" Jen:  Women should, they should do that for each other, we should be celebrating each other non stop because we are coming out of an era where we shamed, we were shamed and we've shamed each other. We are coming out of that era and it's time we women need to stop hiding, post all the selfies. Beth:  Absolutely. Annie: Beth will have, I'm just going to, I hope you don't mind me- Jen: I'm going to post one today now. And I'm going to wait for Beth to comment on it. Annie: I hope you don't mind me sharing, Beth but Beth, you even posted, because we're friends on Facebook, like, I think you said something like, I've had a glass of wine or something, post your selfies so I can hype you up. You were going to work, you're like "This is like, I'm going to spend, you know, X amount of time hyping up women in my life, like, telling them how awesome they are." Jen: We're doing a selfie now. Beth: Okay, sorry, i just needed to take one for the gram, I was doing it for the gram. So yes I, so I have a very boring career as a real estate attorney, it's not anything real super exciting and it's not the work that I, I mean- Jen: It's not Law and Order? Beth: No and I love what I do but it is not, it's not lifting up people, you know, the way that I want my life, the way I want my life's work to be and what I have come to realize is like, you can have a career and you can also have a life's work and they don't have to be the same thing and I really truly believe that my life's work is about helping people feel good about themselves and accepting themselves and so it's weird because, like, I'm not, I'm just a girl who has friends on Facebook. Like, I'm not, I'm not, I don't have a public facing Facebook page and on how that's not what my life is about, I can only touch so many lives because I am a busy mom but I have a community of, especially because I went to law school late in life, I have a community of women who are younger than me who, I'm like, you could do this before you're 35, you could be in love with the life that you are choosing, you could be in love with it now and you can accept yourself radically now, you do not have to wait until you're an old woman, you don't have to wait until you have gray hair to decide to love what you look like and so I do. I will, especially, it's true if I drink I'm especially likely to just troll my friends' Instagrams. Jen: Loving up on all of them. Beth:  But I will also, like, if I'm having a bad day I will ask people to post selfies in my comment sections so I can tell them how great they are because- Jen: Oh, that's so lovely. Beth: It really does make me feel better, like I feel better doing that and as Jen, I do think, I think loving yourself radically as a woman is a feminist act, like, I think it is saying to society that, like, you know, you can kick rocks, like, this is what we're doing now. Jen: Yeah, we're loving each other, like we are, this is not a woman against woman society anymore.. Beth: No and I saw a meme the other day day and it said something along the lines of "Who needs to send scandalous pictures to men when we can just celebrate each other" and that's how I feel, right, like, you don't have to, like I don't know, I don't care, you don't have to think I'm cute. Like, my girlfriends will hype me up and I am, I joke, I'm everybody's auntie on Facebook because if you post a selfie I am going to tell you how great you look. And I just, I, it's part of, I think, it's one of the things I love most about myself and so it matters. Annie: I love it about you too. Jen: I know that you have to go, Beth, so here's what I hear. I hear radical self acceptance, really bad A-S-S gym habit. Working out, building the guns every morning and as a byproduct of and you started implementing nutrition habits, balanced nutrition habits make you feel good and as a byproduct you have seen some weight loss that you are, I don't know if pleased is the right word, how do you feel about the weight loss? Because I know you are a very, you are, you've, you strongly identify with the feminist movement, I know that about you and so sometimes in the feminist circles weight loss is a touchy subject, right, because as you know it's been used to abuse women for so many years, so how do you feel as a strong feminist who has changed their nutrition habits and is losing weight? Beth: You know, I'm pretty ambivalent about weight loss, if I'm being really honest. I, some of that is because of all the things you mentioned, right, like how our bodies look has been such a weapon against us over the centuries. And so some of it's that and some of it is I have, well, I didn't do a lot of dieting in my life, I did do a lot of binge and restrict, just traditional trying not to eat the bad thing- Jen: Just the traditional- Beth: Just the traditional, you know, thing that we all do, I don't eat anything and then I eat all the things. So I have lost tremendous amounts of weight and been congratulated by the world and then have the experience of gaining it back and feeling like there was something wrong with me for having gained it back so I am a little bit ambivalent about weight loss for that reason, like, just that I want to make sure that I don't put too much of my value in it. Jen: Right. Beth: But, like, so I actually shared that my mother's in town right now and I shared this story with her the other day and I thought it was really, it's one of the things I gained from Balance 365 that I'm the most thankful for. I was in my doctor's office the other day and I told him I was, like, "Look, you know, I'm doing all this stuff and like the weight, really, like it's just, it's a slow slog. I feel like it's not coming off. I'm doing the things I'm supposed to do and it's not coming off."   And he told me, he said, "You know, you're an attorney who has 4 children. You live a very high stress life and it will be hard for you to lose weight,  like it's going to be hard, like the stress is going to make it difficult," and he said, "So, you know, I wouldn't put a lot of weight on that. I wouldn't put a lot of your focus on trying to lose weight because it may not happen, you know" and it felt really, at first, really discouraging. But there were lots of times in my life where if I had heard that message from a doctor that I would have been like "Well, I'm calling it. It's ice cream sundaes for the rest of the week and I'm staying in bed and I'm not going to the gym" and instead, I mean, this was probably 2 months ago, I have only increased my gym consistency and focused more on my eating because it really turns out weight loss is not my aim doing this, ultimately. I've stopped linking the things that I do for my health to how fat I am. Like I've just stopped linking those two things. Jen: Good for you. The weight loss is just a byproduct, like, it really, you know, it's and that's what Balance365 is about and that's what a lot of women's journeys have to be is that weight loss is not a driver, it's not like, you know, where for a lot of women it was, right? It was like wake up in the morning, OK, what do I have to do to lose weight today, right? Instead of going, waking up in the morning, saying "Hey, how am I  taking care of me today?" and the byproduct of that, you know, it is what it is and for some people that could be weight loss. Annie: And one of the kind of philosophies that we preach is that weight loss is not a behavior, it's not a habit, it's a byproduct or it can be a byproduct of our habits and that's not, that's, I mean, we're a habit based behavior change company, so we're focusing on behavior change that you're after, that's important to you, that matters to you, that works for you and if weight loss is a byproduct of that and you're comfortable with it, then we're comfortable with it. Beth: Yeah, and that was a big plus for me here because I've always been like "What's your goal?" "Well, my goal is to lose 50 pounds or my goal is to lose two pant sizes or my goal is to, you know, whatever" and it was like it was revolutionary for me for my goal to be "I'm just going to show up at the gym," like, I'm just going to show up and I may not have any strength gains and I may not lose any weight and I may not have any result, there may not  be a result, I'm just, my goal is something that I can control which is shocking because most of us have been in programs for our whole lives where the goal was something that in reality we have very little control over, right? Jen: Right. Beth: You can do all the things right, you can exercise perfectly and you still may not lose weight and you have no control over it so your goal is something you're like, I may never gets to, that's the worst, who wants that kind of goal? Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think you if you know your body well, you know, you can influence your weight, you know, that there are certain behaviors that influence weight loss but having, I mean this is why we have to be very careful with setting goal weights is that what if you, what if you are living a life you feel very healthy and balanced and you're not at that goal weight? Like, what are you willing to do, right and so it's sometimes it's just disappointing to set them, right, like? Annie: Right, well and even in our experience after coaching thousands of women, you know, the goal weight that many women have for themselves is like so unrealistic. "Where did you get that number?" "Well, that's what I graduated high school at. That's what I got married at 30 years ago." Jen: And you dieted for 6 months before your wedding day and now- Annie: Yes and I think, you know, Jen and I talk about this all the time, you know, Jen and I similarly, we're within a year apart with 3 kids, same height but Jen and I have like a 50 pound difference between us and so for me to think that like, "I could be Jen's weight," or for Jen to think "Oh, I could be Annie's weight," like that's just absurd. Like it's just, like, not realistic on either end of the spectrum and so yeah, I think that's just something to consider when, if you're listening and you have a have a goal weight in mind or if that's, like, in your back pocket it's like maybe give that some thought- Jen: Maybe focused on your behaviors and as an act of self-love you can let your weight be what it's going to be while you are pursuing behaviors that feel really good and really healthy for you. Beth: Well and I don't, I guess, I didn't, I don't want to sound like, you know, like, I sound like a Debbie Downer, like, I feel ambivalent about weight loss and you might not lose anything and I should say I have lost 15 pounds since the beginning of September so it's not as if, I'm not trying to say, like, it's impossible to lose weight or you you can't lose fat. Absolutely, it's possible but it's just for me, it's been very freeing to have goals that have nothing to do with my weight, that are just goals that I have control over so I don't want to make it sound like "Eh, lose weight" Annie: Beth, I enjoy you so much. OK, real quickly and then we'll let you get on with your day because, you know, it's a nice Sunday afternoon before the holidays, perfect timing for a podcast. If someone was on the fence and they were listening about joining Balance365 what advice would you give them? Beth: I think there is never, I don't think there's anyone who couldn't benefit from the program. So I will start by saying, "I think you should do it." And alternatively, as a second thing, if you are in a position where, like, you're worried, like, financially I don't know if I can do it, or you know, if you have reasons that you are holding yourself back that are valid ones that for you, then I do think, my experience is that there is certainly benefit to being in the group before you're ready to make changes but it's OK to wait, it's OK to wait until you're ready. So if you feel like it's not right then maybe it's not right right now but there's no one who I wouldn't say "Yeah this is a program that you can benefit from." So, you know do it, you can hang with me in the slow start club. There's a lot of us, there are a lot of us in the slow start club and I think now, kind of my purpose, it's not another life's work but like my goal in the group is to kind of try and help those people who are still hanging back, wanting to start, not knowing how to. Jen: We have a lot of Balance365ers who are listening and so if you and some of them are like, they're holding back from just getting started, so what would your advice be because I saw you tell somebody the other day in the group, I'm not sure what the post was about but you said "Hey look, I waited two years, I think, you waited two years to get started and that was a big mistake." Beth: Yeah. Jen: So what would your advice be to move people out of that zone of like- Annie: Contemplation. Jen: I've started but not starting, I've purchased but I'm not starting. Beth: I think I would say, "OK, so I think, my personal opinion is that starting with the balancing one meal is the right way to go. Now, that was what was right for me, not everybody is going to start the same way and  but I'm speaking to people that for whom balancing a meal would be a good way to start and here's what I would say to those people: you have to eat something for dinner tonight anyway. Jen: Right, you might as well balance it. Beth: You have to. It's not as if your stress means you don't eat dinner, in fact, most of us are here because our stress means extra dinner, so like,  if you are in a red zone and Annie and I, when we tried to record this in the past and I was so sick, we talked a lot about how I have ambivalent feelings about the red zone as well, like it's not, I kind of feel like "Eh, if you don't want to do it, don't do it. For me, that's a big part of what I love about the community is there's not this sense of like "No excuses," like, there aren't really truly, there are no excuses, you just, you know, you either do it or you don't do it, because you want to or because you feel like you can or whatever, it's fine. If you don't do it, you don't do it. Nobody is watching. Jen: And no one's judging you. Beth: Like, I don't care. I don't care if eat a balanced dinner, like, you're cool. I have met so many wonderful women in the community and you know what, if they don't eat a balance dinner,  I could give two, right? Jen: Well, some people don't take action because they feel like, especially in this sort of "wellness industry area" they they don't take action because first of all, taking action in the past has been this big thing, overhauling their life, it's not like, "Hey, just balance your dinner. It's just like this one thing." It's like this overhaul, right and number two is you feel like people are watching you and you're going to be judged and you're going to get this right or you're going to get it wrong and it's like, we're not here to judge you, we're not here, you can't pass or fail. This isn't a, you know, we're just working at change, all together. Beth: Yeah, I guess, so yeah, I guess my advice would be just pick a meal and balance it and it feels, I know it feels like there's 7000 things that are keeping you from doing it, I know it feels that way, because we all feel that way, we all feel like, like you said, it might be the judgment of past diets or it might be fear of failure or it might be actual things, right it might be a sick child or a marriage that's falling apart or it could be any number of things. I have interpersonal problems too. I have and that's not to say,"I have these problems and if I can do it you can do it." I mean, we're all going to live that way forever.I have yet to meet a mom who's like my day is just so smooth and I have nothing to do with my time except meal plan and make perfectly balanced dinners. Like, I've never met that woman. I've never met her. Jen: Yeah. Beth:  I don't think she exists. I think she's fake and so you're going to make dinner tonight. You are going to. You're going to eat something so choose to eat something that is closer to what you think would help you achieve your goals. So, for me that meant just planning, I'm going to be honest, like I said, I go to Pudova, I buy chicken and I throw it on top of a bag salad, that is what I eat like 3 nights a week when my children are not home because it means I don't have to do anything. It's my favorite and I probably would eat it 7 days a week if my children were not home and I didn't have to feed them. Jen: Beth, do you feel better? Like, I mean, is there anything, like, can we attach some feelings to this? So because eating balanced meals isn't about, we're not guiding women into eating more balanced meals for weight loss, that's not our primary driver, do you feel better eating more balanced meal? Beth: So yes, one, like, digestive health is better, obviously, when you eat vegetables, friends, like that's just true. Jen: It's just yes. Beth: It's just a fact about your digestive tract and my digestive health is better when I eat vegetables. I personally have some gall bladder issues and when I'm balancing my fats I feel better in that sense and I think my sleep has improved since I've been implementing more balanced eating, probably some of that is because if I'm not going through the drive through I'm less likely to drink caffeinated beverages late in the day. Jen: Right. Annie: Right. Beth: So there's a number of things that I think are positive and some of it, I won't lie, some of it is that fat loss has been a byproduct has also made me more comfortable in my body in a number of ways and so I think there's lots of positives that have come from eating a balanced dinner. Jen: Yeah, I mean, I heard from one of our members as far as the fat loss, she said you know it's the little things like bending down to tie my shoes and not having, you know, all this fat in the way, it's like physical comfort that she quite enjoys about losing weight off her body and I think that's OK to talk about, right, like there's only so much we can control each of us individually and as long as we're talking inside the constructs of what you, what is possible and achievable for you I think that's, you know, totally OK. And the other reality is that in the culture we live in that is so, so guided by diet culture a lot of women, a lot of women the bodies they are in are a result of years, decades of dieting and sometimes implementing these habits and seeing fat loss is about taking back the body you were meant to have before you got into this binge and restrict cycle that the diet industry pushed you into, resulting in actually living in a larger body than what is healthy and just your, what your natural body is, right and I'm here for that, too, right, so we say about Balance365, we're not trying to help women live at a body weight that's leaner than what's healthy for them, we're trying to get you to reclaim the body you were meant to have. Annie: I love these conversations with Beth because it's, like, not just about, like, this exterior, like, this has a very deeply rooted, deeply seated meaning of exploring, like, your relationship with yourself, your relationship, how your relationship with the world affects your relationship with your family and your other relationships and like, how, it just changes how you show up in the world on so many levels and so I just always love Beth's perspective. Jen: Me too. Annie: Yeah, OK, Beth, I know you have places to go, would you mind sharing your Instagram handle? Beth: Sure, my instagram handle is bethiclaus, beth like my name, i, claus, like Santa Claus and you can follow me, I think it's set to public right now but I'll probably get a private but if you ask to follow me and you're a woman- Jen: She'll let you. Beth:  I definitely will let you. If you're a man, who know, maybe not. Jen: We're going to link to your Instagram account in the show notes. Beth: Girlfriends only. And so yeah, I mean, yes, if you follow me and then you do an Instagram story, there's like a 90 percent chance if you put a selfie in there you'll get feedback from me. Jen: Praise emojis and heart eyes. Beth: Positive affirms only as I like to say. Annie: Yeah, it's, what a great, you know, it's like dropping a pebble into a pond and watching the ripple, like, expand out. It's wonderful. I think that's such a great way to spend your time. I can't, like how valuable is that, making other women feel good or just encouraging other women to feel good, so thank you both for joining, Jen, this was fun that you were able to join for a member spotlight. It was enjoyable. Jen:  Yes. Annie: Even in your house coat. Jen: Yes and now we can all go and enjoy Christmas. Annie: I know, I know but it's going to be way past Christmas by the time this comes out so- Beth:  Merry Christmas, y'all. Annie: Merry belated Christmas. Alright, thank you ladies, we'll talk soon. Beth: Bye. Jen: Bye.

There is a tremendous amount of pressure on women to bounce back after baby, and that can have a negative impact on new moms during an already stressful time. It doesn’t have to be that way! Jen, Annie and Lauren get together and brainstorm ways to fight the postpartum body blues, move past shame and into acceptance. Tune in and get practical advice, much needed perspective and renewed focus. Enjoy!   What you’ll hear in this episode: Changes in the portrayals of the postpartum experience Media and cultural messaging around postpartum bodies and how they should look Postpartum as a chapter in your life where your body looks different The role of comparisons in body shame Advertising messaging in pregnancy magazines When women dread the obligation to lose weight postpartum The impact of dieting stress on the body The stress associated with having a newborn The temporary nature of postpartum body feels Timing of fat loss goals postpartum relative to other stressors Achieving body neutrality postpartum The constantly changing nature of our bodies Practicing non-attachment to our body shape The prevalence of postpartum body dissatisfaction and what you can do about it   Resources: Secrets From the Eating Lab Episode 29: A Therapist’s Advice On Asking For What You Need Mindfulmft Instagram account Episode 9: Two Sisters, Two Bodies: Growing Up Together In A Body Obsessed World Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we dive into this topic, I wanted to share a really sweet review we got on iTunes and this is from Becks H and she says "As I learn more about the damage that diet culture has done and is continuing to do in my own life and in general, these ladies are a breath of fresh air. It's like having a chat with encouraging girlfriends who can answer all of your questions. I always learn something and I always an up in a good mood plus listening while I work makes tasks and chores more bearable." Thank you so much, Becks H, I appreciate the review and to everyone else who has left a review for us on iTunes or Spotify, we read every single one of them and they mean so much to us, thank you. Alright, let's dive into this postpartum topic. The postpartum period can be a time of great love but it can also be great sadness. If you've had a baby you've likely experienced the insane amount of pressure placed on postpartum women to "bounce back" quickly after giving birth, from magazines to media, to even well intentioned friends and family, women are praised and applauded for making it appear as though they never even had a baby. With such high expectations for women it can feel impossible to feel like you aren't failing. Our bodies go through so many changes in the pregnancy and postpartum stage, it's common to hear women in awe of their body's ability to grow and birth a child but on the other hand, insecure and confused about how their post-partum body looks. On today's episode of Balance365 Life radio, Lauren, Jen and I discuss our personal experiences with postpartum body shame and suggestions on how to cope and if you want to continue this discussion, we'd love to see you inside our free private Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Enjoy. Ladies, the gang's all here. Yay! All three of us are back together. Lauren: Yay! Annie: Jen, how are you doing today? Jen: Good. Annie: Good. Lauren, how are you? Lauren: Good. Annie: Again. You know, we act like I haven't talked to Lauren twice already on two different podcasts. I've done this intro already. Lauren: I'm still wonderful.   Annie: Good, good. I'm happy to have both of you here with me today because we're talking about a topic that comes up frequently in our podcast or in our community and I'm kind of surprised we haven't already dove into this in our podcast but that is postpartum shame. Which kind of used to be our bread and butter, that was like how, we were then Healthy Habits Happy Moms, we really started as pre/postnatal talk and training experts. Jen: Yeah, I mean we still do talk about pre and post natal health, women's health, we've just expanded from there. Annie: Yeah, but it's like kind of going back to our roots today, like we used to talk about this so much and we still do inside of our Facebook community which is Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, if you're not a part of it, it's a pretty a free private community which if you have more questions or you want to continue the discussion on the podcast today inside there is a great place to do it. But we want to talk about postpartum body shame because it's something that the 3 of us have absolutely experienced at various stages in our life and it's something that we hear from a lot of women in our community that they also experience and that's large in part because there's an insane amount of pressure on postpartum women to "bounce back" after giving birth and it's not surprising because we live in a culture unfortunately that fonds over women who lose the baby weight and don't even look like they've had a baby or they are able to slip on their pre-pregnancy jeans shortly after leaving the hospital and intentionally harmful or not this message, the message to women is clear that women are encouraged and applauded for having a baby and then essentially destroying any evidence of having done so and it can feel incredibly hard when you see all of that to not feel like you're failing if you don't achieve those results, right? Jen: Yeah, I mean, I think the message that we get becomes an expectation almost like if you aren't one of those women that "bounces back" then there's something wrong with you. Lauren: Or you better at least be trying your hardest. Jen: Yeah. Lauren: If you're not trying, what's wrong with you. Annie: Absolutely and I just, I do want to be clear that there's a lot of ways that shame can kind of show up or present itself in the postpartum period and that can be, like, function related which we've talked about a lot in our community as well as far as diastasis recti, incontinence, hernia, pelvic floor dysfunction, sexual dysfunction. It can also show up as mental and emotional related shame which is something I know Jen's been very vocal about postpartum depression, anxiety, O.C.D, just general sadness or depression but we really want to focus on shame as it relates to your appearance or your body today on this episode and some of the ways that can show up is, you know, feeling like you still look pregnant after giving birth shortly or a while after. It can change your belly shape. You can feel shame or embarrassment or concern about stretch marks, your skin, your hair, maybe carrying additional body fat or weight, more cellulite, baggy or loose skin, which, to me ,I'm reading this, listen, I'm, like, "Yep, that sounds pretty par for the course for pregnancy, postpartum." Jen: Or you, just, you know, you've never had a baby. Annie: You just have a body. Jen: Yeah like so these are just trigger things for women and you know, we, you know, we talk about this so often but really we have been set up for failure in postpartum, as women, you know, women get set up for failure in that, first of all, nobody talks much about postpartum and two, there isn't a very realistic portrayal of postpartum. I mean, it's coming, it's coming, I think we've got more pages, like social media accounts of stuff that popped up with women sharing a more realistic postpartum but I mean, when I was having babies, I started in 2009 and ended in 2013, there was nothing out there like there is now. There was a lot of women going viral, like, I mean, I'm talking across the world for how they looked postpartum. Just, you know, international headlines, it's crazy. Annie: Well and that's one of things you wanted to share, you found a couple studies that kind of reflects your experience because I remember one of my first conversations with you was you had, would it have been your third round Heidi Klum? Jen: I had my first around the same time as Heidi Klum I think had her fourth or her third and she was on the Victoria's Secret runway at 10 weeks postpartum and all the power to Heidi Klum, for sure, it's just that, you know, she probably spent 10 weeks preparing for that, she was probably preparing for it in her pregnancy and it just wasn't a realistic, you know, postpartum journey, you know, not many women, you know, would look like. Lauren: Not many women's lives look like Heidi Klum's, right? Jen:  Yeah. Lauren: She has help in every area of her life right and a lot of us are doing this more or less on our own, so it's not going to look the same. Jen: Right and also after she was on the runway I mean everybody made such a huge deal out of it and then there was articles everywhere talking about, interviewing her on her diet and exercise regime leading up to that and she was on a very strict diet and she had, she was working out tons and so there was just no gentler message out there at the time and I really thought that should probably be, like, I should have, I clearly should have been doing that kind of thing and I did feel really ashamed. Annie: Right, there's this like inferred, like, standard, like, this is the standard for her when, in reality, like, she gets paid to look a certain way and do a job based off of the way her body looks which we can dive into a little bit later. And like, and you don't, so like the expectations are just different, you know and the standards are different but there is that, when you see that put on a pedestal, her put on a pedestal for doing this thing with her body after pregnancy, there's this inferred "I should be doing that as well" or that's what's expected. Jen:  And I also wanted to note that postpartum body shame is incredibly complex but most women headed into postpartum at that are feeling ashamed about their bodies already carried quite a bit of shame beforehand, like the shame, the body shame always existed and it does exist in millions upon millions of women and postpartum just intensifies it. Annie: Absolutely, I know just on a personal note, I felt like, as you noted, starting right away in pregnancy that my body was changing faster than my thoughts and emotions and mind could process and it was just, you know, and that carried well into postpartum and I'm 2.5, who says that, 2.5, 2 and a half years postpartum and I still feel like I'm seeing changes in my body with like my hair and my skin, like, I feel like my hair is starting to grow back a little bit and it's like your body is just changing and I just remember thinking that it was changing faster than I could process, I could emotionally, like, keep up with it. It seemed like I got comfortable with one aspect or the way my body was feeling or looking or functioning and then "Oh, we're going to pivot, we're going to change ,we're going to grow a little bit, we're going to expand a little bit or shift a little bit" and it can be challenging. So we, but you know, with all that said we also understand that a lot of women at this stage have a desire to feel more confident and you know, ultimately I remember feeling like I wanted to regain some sort of control because as a mom, it felt like so much of it was out of my control and I just wanted to control something and a lot of times, in our experience, we see women trying to control their bodies or their food or their exercise as a way to like do that thing, to gain some control, so we just wanted to share some steps, essentially that might help you overcome or work through some postpartum body shame. Yeah? Jen:  Yeah. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK, alright, let's go. So the first one is to quit comparisons and this can be on a couple different levels but we would encourage you to let go of comparing your pre-pregnancy body with your postpartum body and also comparing your bodies with other women, which is just good advice in general but a lot of times we hear women comparing their prenatal, their pre-baby body and their post baby body and we would offer that it doesn't have to be better or worse that it's just different. Jen:  Yeah, I mean a lot, there's, this conversation happens constantly but it's women comparing, you know, how long it took them to get back to their pre-pregnancy weight or, that's a goal, right, so it's like "I'm 5 pounds from my pre-pregnancy weight. I'm 15 pounds from my pre-pregnancy weight." It seems to be the goal for a lot of women postpartum. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, it's just that, it's sort of like believing you can predict what your body is going to look like and feel like after puberty. It's a major, major hormonal event, major physical changes happening and you don't really know what your body is going to look like on the other side of pregnancy and into postpartum and the other thing, you know, we've kind of touched on this but our own postpartum body standards is that postpartum is yet another chapter of a woman's life where her body is going to look different so there is, one study I pulled that actually interviewed a whole host of women in Australia who were giving birth and inside that study women talked about their utter, like, their, just, their shock around postpartum, like, their their prenatal classes had all revolved around labor and delivery and nobody had really talked to them about postpartum, like what they would look like, how they would feel and there was an acceptance of their body changing during pregnancy because it was very functional. But postpartum they felt, they didn't feel there was a function for that changed body anymore and it and they were shocked at their bodies didn't go back to how they looked pre-pregnancy and so I always encourage women to look at postpartum like another chapter right, so pregnancy is a chapter of life where your body will be changing and may not look or feel the way it had before but postpartum is also another chapter where your body definitely has a function, where now you are recovering from birth and many women will be nursing a baby, some women not, which is fine. But that's just another chapter where your body has function and and a job to do and it's going to look different. Annie: Yeah and we always say in our community too that postpartum is forever, like once you're postpartum, you're postpartum forever so there's no, like, timeline for, at least we wouldn't prescribe or suggest or a timeline for which any of this is normal. It's all very individual base and person-specific. Like some women change, gain weight, lose weight for a variety of reasons, at a variety of rates and it's not, like, prescriptive, like, this is what you should be doing. Lauren: I think for me, what really, something that really helped me was exactly what Annie said, realizing that "pre-baby body" like, that's gone, like, I will have a post baby body forever, like, it's never, it's always going to be different and it's not better or worse and it doesn't mean I can't get, you know, some semblance of, you know function back. I can still lose the some extra fat that I put on. I can get stronger but it's always going to be different than it was before. And that's OK. That's how it's supposed to be. Jen: Yeah and it's also important to remember that fat has a function as well, it's not just, you know, excess weight that we've put on that's unnecessary and it's like, it's crazy out there on social media that, you know, what women become consumed with. There was a period of time where every time I logged into Pinterest the very 1st pin at the top of my feed was how to lose fat during pregnancy and I could see that it had been pinned thousands and thousands of thousands of times and it's just, it's just such a symptom of what women are so concerned about in pregnancy, right, it's yeah, it's just become this massive concern because we live in this society- Annie: That fears it. Jen: Yeah that has set up this expectation for us but it's no different than everything we've talked about on this podcast before, it's just during a different chapter of your life. The marketing machine is still the same and the marketing machine is still there for pre and post natal women so it is, you know, holding up an unrealistic standard for women, making them feel ashamed that they don't meet that standard and selling them something in order to try and meet that standard. And you see there's like all these things like stretch marks creams on the market that really don't have any evidence behind them whatsoever. Because whether you develop stretch marks or not is probably mostly based on your genetics. I had stretch marks well before I hit pregnancy. I got them in puberty so I knew some would probably be coming during pregnancy. My sister had stretch marks, my mom has stress marks, you know, and there's all these industries that have popped up around women's bodies being wrong, even during pregnancy and postpartum and one other study that I pulled was a media study done on 3 popular pregnancy magazines and upwards and over 50 percent of the advertising inside those magazines were ads about weight loss or getting your body back. So you're already being bombarded with this messaging during pregnancy that your primary goal postpartum should be erasing any signs that you have become a mother. Lauren: And it causes a real fear even during pregnancy. Jen: Right. Lauren: About what's coming, what's going to happen. Jen: Right, absolutely. Annie:  I just had a phone call with one of my closest friends, she is pregnant and she's struggling with gaining weight during pregnancy and I assured her over and over and over again that this is exactly what your body's supposed to be doing, like, this is your body's job, like this is normal, this is an expectation but she's already kind of bracing herself for, like, weight loss postpartum, like, I'm putting on all this weight and I'm going to have to lose it and it's like, "You know, actually, you don't have to. You don't have to." Jen: Yeah, you don't have to do anything different, really postpartum and a lot of women's bodies will settle in. So I look at my three experiences and in my third experience I was not dieting and in my first two I was just, you know, hyper focused on the weight loss postpartum and in my first two I lost weight very quickly and you know, again my whole goal being finding my "pre-pregnancy weight" but it just consumed me, right and I had, especially in my second pregnancy, I had all these pelvic health issues going on but I could not pause to deal with those because I was just, I just was obsessed with losing this weight. And then by my third one I wasn't dieting so I wasn't hyper focused, I wasn't doing anything differently than I had maybe done in pregnancy as far as just, you know, eating balanced meals and all of that and guess what? I lost the weight anyways, like, you know, without stressing over it and so what we say is like, you know, we always say this, but, "Cultivate healthy habits that work for you in that season of your life and let your body be what it's going to be. Let your weight be what it's going to be and that is probably what's healthiest for you." Annie: Well and especially to consider that as a mom, new or not, whether it's your first or it's your fifth, babies are stressful, you know and then maybe you've got some other kids on top of that, maybe you're returning to a career in the home or outside the home or whatever but I mean, at the bare minimum, caring for a baby and yourself in that stage of the game is stressful and then so many women want to throw additional stress of dieting and workouts, which dieting is a stress on your body, it creates psychological stress. I mean, Traci Mann is coming on our podcast this week, it's echoed in her book Secrets From the Eating Lab, like it's additional stress on your body. Jen: Yeah, measurable, you measure your stress levels, that when people are dieting their stress levels go up. Annie: Yeah, their cortisol is higher and it's, like, you know, cut yourself some slack. Jen: Yeah, absolutely and then it leads into a cycle, right, so there's this the stress cycle where, like, you're super stressed so your cravings intensify, which Lauren can talk more about that if she wants to and then all those cravings intensify and you end up in that binge and restrict cycle, right, even postpartum and it's so intense because you are already so stressed, fighting those cravings, then trying to restrict, which leads to more stress, which leads to more urges to binge eat and yeah, it's just a really messy, messy cycle that I think if more women were honest, they would say they were very, very stuck in in the postpartum chapter. Annie: Absolutely. Moving on, I know I just said that once you're postpartum you're postpartum forever but with that said, I also want to offer that now is not forever and what I mean by that is how you're feeling now about your body, hopefully, likely, I mean, assuming it's, if you're listening to this you might be feeling some negative emotions about your body or maybe you've experienced that in the past or you're kind of preparing for it in the future but know that feelings ebb and flow and as uncomfortable as it can be to lean in and shine a light so to speak on the dark feelings that you're feeling, it could be the thing that helps you step forward from self loathing to self-love and Vienna Pharaon was actually on our podcast, if you don't follow her on mindfulmft which we can link into the show notes on Instagram, she's a just a wonderful uplifting account. She's a therapist but she encourages, a couple weeks ago she had a post about how to cultivate self-love and her answer was the only way to love yourself is by exploring all the things you hate about yourself. The practice of self-love can't be fully successful if we hide and reject the parts that actually need it and so I guess with that, what comes to mind for me is when I'm feeling some type of way, when I'm feeling a negative emotion or shame about a body part or an aspect of my life or trait of myself, instead of kind of running and hiding from it or distracting myself with other thoughts or behaviors to actually kind of explore, like, what is this, where did this come from, why am I feeling like this, where did I learn this, when did this start and see what answers you come up with and in my experience, the more I do that, the more I'm able to lean into those emotions, the quicker they pass. Jen: Right, the other thing is to understand that self acceptance is such a crucial component of body satisfaction and self acceptance does not necessarily mean you love every part of your body and this goes for postpartum, so full honesty here, I don't love the way my postpartum body looks and I don't love the way it feels so I just find it extremely uncomfortable, not just my stomach but like big breastfeeding boobs, I just can't handle and I'm not used to because I'm actually very small chested normally. I just, all of that stuff just is very uncomfortable. Lauren: Yeah so....sorry... Jen: Self acceptance isn't about loving every part of your body or even necessarily loving the way it looks, it's just about accepting, accepting it all and taking it all in, right? Lauren: Right, yes so for me, I am the newest postpartum out of the 3 of us. I have a one year old and I remember this very, very clearly because when I had Benny we were already, we had already started this company, right, I have been in this process for years but I remember, just not, I was maybe 2 months postpartum and I just didn't feel like myself, right I didn't, I didn't love the way my body looked and like you said, I didn't like how it felt, it felt foreign to me and I didn't feel like myself and what helped for me is to realize that now is not forever, like Annie mentioned. It was, it opened my eyes because we have a lot of people come into the Facebook group and talk about, you know, I haven't lost the baby weight yet and I, you know, I don't feel like myself or whatever and we're like well how far, you know, how long ago did you have your baby and they'll say, you know, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, 12 weeks, whatever and as a non postpartum Mom, you look at that and say "Well, that's a blink of an eye, right, like you are so newly postpartum" but I remember being in that space and to me, it felt like it was taking forever. And I knew, like I knew all this stuff, right, but still being in that place, having your hormones changing, your body still constantly changing. I just need anyone in that space to remind themselves that now is not forever and it does, in the moment, feel like a long time but it will pass. Like, I'm a year postpartum now and I'm still going through postpartum changes but I'd say probably for the first 6 months or so I was like kind of in the thick of it as far as my postpartum body went for sure. Jen: Right and actually in Balance365 we don't even recommend anyone even be thinking about anything fat loss related until they're out of the thick of it, which for some, you know, that differs for every woman, I know we kind of said ish, around 6 months postpartum, like if you're thinking about fat loss before 6 months postpartum you're just probably in the wrong area of your wellness wheel at that point and then I think it was, when you're around 6 months postpartum, Lauren or had you said you kind of came out of think of it around four months postpartum,  I can't remember now. It doesn't feel like that long ago. Lauren: Yeah it was like between 4 and 6, like, there was, I mean, it was kind of cyclical, right, like the baby would sleep through the night then he wouldn't sleep through the night and  so it just kind of depended but between like 4 and 6 months is when I started even working on, you know, anything fat loss or even really health related. Jen: Right, it is just survival, right, survival. Lauren: Yeah, I started just by, like, "Well, let's get some veggies in everyday, Lauren. Let's get some protein." Jen: Which is a very realistic look at what postpartum looks like right and on that sleep front, my third, he didn't sleep through the night until I weaned him when he was one and I honestly didn't feel like I was coming out of the thick of it until then. So I really think like you know it's just so dependent from woman to woman on what that feels like and but that's why that acceptance piece, that self acceptance piece is so important, right, like now is not forever and you can wake up in the morning and you can acknowledge that your breasts feel really heavy and you do not like that feeling or your belly feels, you know, very large and it's in the way and you are not, you know, it's just and you just, you don't enjoy that and that's not where you want to be but just that acceptance can wash over you of this is just, "this is not forever, it's just right now." Annie: And I think that moves you into a space of being very neutral about your body which I know we've talked about with Janelle on the sisters podcast that she really felt like neutral is a good place for her to be at various points that she wasn't able to, like, as you said, love all aspects about her body, which I don't even think is the goal, I don't even know if that's possible, if it is possible I haven't experienced it yet but you can just be kind of like "Oh, this is what it is." Jen: Like, well, if you don't pour all your self-worth into the way your body looks then self acceptance can be easier, right? But when you've poured all to yourself worth into how your body looks then it is absolutely devastating to have to endure postpartum. Annie: Absolutely which is a great segue into our third recommendation is to remember that your body isn't the problem and this is so easy for the three of us to sit here and say now that we're a year plus removed from giving birth but the antidote to your postpartum body shame is way less about dieting down to your pre-pregnancy weight and way more about cultivating self acceptance and Lou Ullrich, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, this, I love this quote of hers. She says "Bodies inevitably change, the more attached we become to their shape, the more we will suffer" and that's essentially what Jen was saying, that, I mean, even, you know, from puberty to college to, you know, high school, college, pre-pregnancy, baby 1, 2, 3, like, I mean, my body is just like, it is constantly evolving, you know. Jen: If we lined up our bodies from, you know, if we had a picture taken on all of our birthdays and lined them up from ages 0 to age 99, you would start to see that your body is always evolving, we are always changing whether it's your shape and size or you know, your skin is changing and that's just it. There just needs to be an acceptance around that, period. Bodies change. Period. Annie: Yeah, you can't stop it. Jen: So never get too attached to any one way that your body looks. Annie: Yeah, absolutely and again this is easy for us to sit here and say but I want to remind our listeners that this is something that we, the three of us, have been practicing for years and years and years and years. This didn't just happen overnight where we're just like "Oh, we're done dieting, we're done with self-loathing, we're done with, we're done you know with shaming ourselves." Like, this has been a practice and I think, you know, the three of us were being honest that we still have days or moments, you know, where we're not loving everything about ourselves or we're struggling a little bit more than others for whatever reason and but now we have the awareness to say "Look, this is just a bad body image day or a bad body image week or I'm feeling in this type of way because X, Y, Z happened and it will pass and it doesn't mean that it needs to affect my behaviors or my actions or how I'm moving forward." Awesome. OK, well, anything else you ladies want to add? I feel like we could talk a lot more about other aspects of postpartum shame as well. Jen:  Yeah, I think this is a good initial dive. Annie: Dive into at least appearance which is what brings women to us, because again, we've been conditioned to think that our body is the most important aspect of our ourselves and so we get a lot of women in our community, especially with the name Healthy Habits Happy Moms that are like "I'm a new mom and I had a baby and now I need to, you know, lose my weight- Jen: I want to get healthy so that means I need to lose all this baby weight and it's like, "Is that healthy?" Like, we just need to pause here and let's just question that a little bit, like is that healthy for you, right now? Especially as quickly as possible, right? Like, we talk about this on this podcast constantly, losing weight as quickly as possible is about one of the most unhealthiest things that you can do to your body and postpartum is no different. Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK, good chat, I hope we left our listeners feeling uplifted because I feel uplifted like, "Hey, like this is this is all normal." Jen: "This is all normal and we've all been there." So we get you, girl. Annie: Yes and if you want to, like I said at the beginning, have more support, you know, doing things like a media fast could be helpful. It could also be helpful to join our community continue the discussion here as I mentioned already, Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. We have a really, really great community of women that would love to work out any sort of emotions you're feeling about your postpartum body or even if you're pregnant or even if you're 5 years, 10 years postpartum, every woman is welcome in there. So we hope to see you on the inside and thanks for joining me ladies. Lauren: Thanks. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Bye.  

  Secrets from the Eating Lab Author Dr. Traci Mann, professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control joins Jen, Annie and Lauren in discussing the science behind the hot topics of self-control, temptation, diets and the alternative to dieting.   What you’ll hear in this episode: How much of our weight can we influence? How much of our weight is influenced by genetics? The concept of the Leanest Livable Weight Goal weights and reasonable ranges Weight regain and dieting – how common is it? Why you regain weight after dieting What happens to your body when you go on a diet What you start to notice when you go on a diet Is weight regain guaranteed? Characteristic of people who keep weight off The role of healthy movement  you enjoy in maintaining weight loss Self-control: who struggles with it and can you increase it? The obesogenic environment: what it is Temptation free checkouts and apple bins, reducing the need for willpower at the grocery store The role of small obstacles and inconveniences Making healthy choices convenient to increase compliance Keeping the focus on health instead of weight   Resources: Secrets from the Eating Lab Dr. Mann’s Facebook Page Dr. Mann on Twitter Episode 4: What A 70-year-old Starvation Experiment Taught Us About Dieting Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we get into today’s podcast episode with an amazing guest, I want to share with you a super sweet message that we received from one of our community members on Facebook today. Christy says “I have been a part of Healthy Habits Happy Moms for almost 2 years now and a Balance365er since May of 2018. I am all in to the way this group thinks and believes. I’m at the point now that when I workout I channel Annie Brees, when I mention establishing habits to coworkers I channel Lauren Koski and when I’m trying to give some perspective to friends about diet culture and treating myself well I channel Jennifer Campbell. I can’t thank the three of you enough for how you have changed my outlook and daily life. I’m chipping away at the program but at this point my greatest takeaway is the way I live out each day because of this new perspective. I can go on and on but I just have to give a big thanks to Jennifer, Annie and Lauren. Thank you so much, Christy and I want to share with all of our community members that any email, any message, any direct message on Instagram we read them all and we are so appreciative of any reviews that you share on the podcast. We love them all. We cannot thank you enough.   Alright, let’s jump into this podcast because I’m super excited about it. I’m not sure if we have referenced any other book on this podcast as much as we have her book, Secrets from the Eating Lab by Dr Traci Mann. Dr. Mann is a professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control. In addition to all her impressive professional experience, she’s also a mom who loves those ice cream, super relatable, hey? If you’re curious about how much control we really have over our weight, how you can avoid temptation and why diets don’t work and what to do instead then you have to listen to this interview with Dr Mann. Enjoy! Jen and Lauren, we have a special, special guest are you two pumped for the show or what? Lauren: So pumped. Jen: Yes, I’ve been waiting. We arranged this well before Christmas I think so I’ve just been like vibrating waiting for it. Annie: Yes and what our listeners didn’t catch before we started recording was Jen gushing for about 10 minutes about how she loves Dr Traci Mann. Welcome to the show, thank you for joining us. Dr. Mann:  Well, thanks for having me, you guys are so nice. Annie: We, the 3 of us have read your book, The Secrets from the Eating Lab and we reference studies, quotes, information from this book so often in our community and our podcast if they haven’t read it, if listeners haven’t read it we would highly recommend it and it’s heavy on the science because you’re a researcher but I wasn’t overwhelmed by the science when I was reading it. I felt it was very like, I could understand the concepts that you were sharing. So, thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Mann: I would also say I’m sure I shouldn’t say this but it’s free Kindle right now. Jen: OK. Annie: Oh my! How long is it going to be free for? Dr. Mann: You know, I have a vague memory of agreeing to this with my agent like a year ago thinking it was like a month long thing and I think it’s possibly forever, I don’t know. Jen: OK we will Dr. Mann:-never sell another book. So, whatever, it’s fine. Annie: Well I will- Dr. Mann: Better people read it than buy it. Annie: say if you look at the 3 of our copies they are highlighted, like top to bottom, they have been like, right, like, they’ve been used, they’ve been well loved. Lauren: I think the name Traci Mann has been on probably 90 percent of our podcast. Jen: Yeah and this, so I have this page highlighted, what I was gushing about before we hit record was how Traci, Dr. Traci, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to- Dr. Mann: Just call me Traci. Annie: We’re besties now. Jen: So you are very much a messy middle writer in that you really objectively look at the research, you haven’t gone headfirst into any kind of movement or philosophy and just looked at research to support your philosophy, you’ve looked at the research which has allowed you to come up with a very objective, balanced message. Dr. Mann: That was the goal for sure. Jen: And so I just I highlighted this a long time ago because it was perfect. It says, it’s on page 20 and so what we hear a lot and what our audience is very aware of is that we hear two things, we hear that you cannot control your weight, you should not even try to lose weight, it’s pointless, your weight is predetermined, what you have, what you’ve got, that’s what you’re going to have forever and then on the other side of the spectrum, we have this whole industry of transformations that it is totally realistic and sustainable to lose half your body weight forever etc, etc. When what we actually know and what the research provides is is that you, it’s actually like in the middle but what you had written and I feel like I was waiting for this message. When I found your book I felt like “I have arrived. I am home. Like, this is what I have been looking for, somebody who is just sensible.” And you say, “I’m not saying you can’t influence your weight at all, just that the amount of influence you have is limited and you’ll generally end up within your genetically determined set weight range” and I thought that was so perfect in that you’re not willing to say you cannot control your weight, you’re trying to say “Hey, we can influence our weight, it’s just not to the level that you have been led to believe by the fad diet industry.” Dr. Mann: Exactly. That’s right so it’s partly genetic, but not 100 percent genetic.   Jen: Right and isn’t there a percentage? Dr. Mann: I think it was 70%- Jen: Yes I think it was 70% but you have a, there’s about a range of 30 percent in there that you can influence your weight. Dr. Mann: Yeah and I mean, it’s not just that and it’s really interesting that people are staking out these extreme positions, you know, it’s like, “Come on, people, nothing is black and white like that.” Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But with the weight thing, it’s not just, it’s not the case that you can’t maneuver your weight around to some extent, obviously you can’t, like you just said, you can’t lose half your body weight but you can move it around to some extent but the problem is that it’s really hard, it’s hard to move it around a lot. It’s not hard to move it around a little. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: And that’s mostly what we talk about in the book is ways to move it around a little without it taking over your life. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But to move it around a lot, it’s not that it can’t be done, it’s just that it’s really, really hard. Jen: And it’s very, it can be hard on us physically and psychologically to be trying to move our weight around to those different extreme ends. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I like to talk about this Leanest Liveable Weight idea. By Leanest Livable Weight I mean it’s the lowest weight that you can comfortably have without having to work so hard at it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Because the leanest weight you can live at comfortably, now that has been misinterpreted by the lovely people like GOOP.com – the lowest weight you can actually survive at without dying. Jen: Right and that’s not what any of us here are trying to talk about. That’s what a lot of women are trying to be and they might they may not even realize it, that that’s what they’re actually trying to achieve but that’s definitely not healthy, physically or psychologically. Annie: And I just want to add to that we’ve worked with thousands of women across the span of the globe and one of the common themes that keeps coming up for women is goal weights or they have this like ideal body weight and oftentimes if you asked them, like, “Well, where did that weight come from?” it’s, like, so, like, not evidence based, it’s like, “Oh I weighed that when I graduated high school or that’s what I weighed on I wedding day or that’s my pre-pregnancy weight” and it might not be realistic. Dr. Mann: Or it sounds good. Annie: Yeah, or that’s what I read on some chart in, you know, I even remember coming across a scale in the mall bathroom, why there was a scale in the mall bathroom I don’t know but it had a chart of, like, body weights and like this is if you’re large frame, small frame. And it’s really not realistic, usually not realistic for those goal weights. So we love the idea that you have a range because as a woman I know that my weight can fluctuate you know 10-15 pounds versus in a month, in a year, how would you recommend going about determining a reasonable range of weight for someone? Dr. Mann: Yeah, that’s a really good question. That’s the hardest question to answer and the question I’m least likely to be able to satisfy you with an answer to because there isn’t, like, a scientific formula to figure out your sort of set range, so instead you have to just kind of make a guess based on your sort of knowledge of what your weight has done over your life and a lot of people notice that there’s a certain weight area that they keep coming back to. So they lose some weight but then they come back to this weight or they gain some weight but then they plop down in this weight without even trying very hard and so if it’s, you know, the weight that your body seems to keep wanting to come back to that’s probably right there, right there in the set range, right where your body is trying to keep you because you’re good at it. Annie: Yeah, in your book and I know there’s going to be people they’re going to say, they’re going to scoff at this but you didn’t just look at people that have lost weight and then regained it, you also looked at people that were trying, studies that have tried to get people to gain weight and it was hard to even maintain a weight gain as well, which further supports the idea that, like, this is where your body can effortlessly live or with minimal effort. Dr. Mann: Right, it’s true and then the weight gains that are particularly interesting because so many people think, you know, I am so careful with what I eat, if I wasn’t this careful I would for sure gain a whole ton of weight. Lauren: Yes, we hear that all the time. Dr. Mann: Yeah, you do, you know, I think people really worry about that and I think partly why they worry about it is because if they do eat a lot more than normal for a while, they do gain weight, but they only gain a certain amount of weight, you know what I mean? So maybe you’ll gain your 5 pounds or 10 pounds but you’re not going to gain 50 pounds, you know, or if you do you’ll come back down pretty easily. Jen: Right,  we see a pendulum swing happen quite often with women who are coming off dieting, if they have spent a decade of their life dieting. We see this pendulum swing where they go from, you know, one weight and the pendulum swings up to a higher weight that they are comfortable with or that is maybe within their set point range but then it settles down somewhere in the middle and we talk about that and you reference this in your book, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Dr. Mann: Right. Jen: So if you are coming from years and years and years of restriction, you look at, we have a whole podcast on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. So if you are coming from a period of very severe restriction, the pendulum swing is almost an expectation, it’s almost, like, we would say it’s a normal and natural response to dieting. Dr. Mann: Oh exactly, it exactly is. I mean, we all need to reframe how we think about dieting. When people think about dieting, they think of that initial weight loss and that’s their image of dieting and then they assume once they have that initial weight loss, they just stay down there. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: But actually, if you followed all the research looking longer at dieters, you see it’s completely predictable that the weight comes back on. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: There’s a tiny, tiny minority of people who keep it off. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But for the majority of people, it just comes back on, you know, over the next like 2, 3, 4, 5 years. So we need to realize that that is a normal part of dieting and not a failure by any particular individual dieter. Jen: Right, right. Dr. Mann: And the thing is they always blame themselves for that. Jen: For that pendulum swing. Dr. Mann: That’s just what happens. Your body needs that to happen, your body is making that happen. Jen: Yeah, it’s like, I think you also, I think we’ve used this analogy and I think it came from your book, it’s like gasping for air after holding your breath. Dr. Mann: Right, I didn’t invent that analogy but I did include it, yes. Jen: Yes. Dr. Mann: Yes, it’s true. I feel like anything I say you’ve already talked about but I mean the things that happen when you restrict for a while. Your body, of course, doesn’t know you want to look thinner, your body thinks you’re in the process of starving to death and so it makes these alterations to save you which is so kind of it and yet everyone gets so mad about that because all those changes that save you from starving to death, make, basically make it very, very, very easy to regain the weight. Jen: Right and it probably, well, you can correct me if I’m wrong, it doesn’t really matter what size you are, if you are 120 pounds or if you’re 220 pounds when you do that restriction, your body still, you know, it doesn’t matter how much body fat you have, your body still thinks you are starving. Dr. Mann: Right, if your body detects that much less is coming in than it than expected then it just, all these changes just click on, you know, your metabolism changes, uh oh, now you have to eat less to keep losing weight. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Hormone levels change, uh oh, you’re going to feel hungry. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: When you eat an amount of food that didn’t used to make you feel hungry, you know and then there’s all these attention changes too, right? So you notice food more if it’s around, you can’t get your mind off it once you start thinking about it, so all those things make regaining the weight way too easy and keeping it off way too hard. It doesn’t make it impossible, though and so this is a key, another key thing that I think people sometimes don’t realize. Any person who knows someone who has lost weight and kept it off, you know, comes and says to me “You can’t say that your body does this stuff, you can’t say your body makes these changes that cause you to regain the weight because I know people who’ve kept it off.” Well I’m not saying that these changes make it impossible to keep off the weight, I’m saying these changes make it really, really hard to keep off the weight. So hard that most people can’t do it. Jen: Right. We were talking before we hit record, again, another thing I had brought up is that because we are, you know, we try to navigate that messy middle and help women figure out what’s right for them, I had said, you know, hearing these two, I remember when I was first getting into this and starting to read about it like 4 to 5 years ago, I would start hearing that extreme messaging “You can’t keep off weight, you just can’t” and actually my husband has lost about 60 pounds, he was, I think, he was about 300 pounds when he graduated high school and now he sits at between kind of 220 and 245, I think. I mean, he’s going to be horrified that I’m talking about this but anyways but that just, that comes very naturally to him to kind of sit around there and so I would, you know, I was the same as those people. I kept hearing that it’s impossible to lose weight and I thought, he has now kept that off for 20 years and he’s not working, like, I don’t see him get up every day and like work at it, he’s not like, he’s not micromanaging his food, he’s not, he has some great habits, he, you know, he eats balanced meals, he tries to get to the gym 3 to 4 times a week but he’s lived a high stress life like the rest of us, he’s had kids, gone to grad school, all of that and so that just didn’t sit well with me and I thought, instead of looking at everybody who is failing, what are these successful people doing? Like why are they able to do it? Which kind of comes why, again, why your book is so refreshing, because you sort of, you’ve got that sort of nailed. Dr. Mann: Well, you know, I mean, I don’t even know and it’s interesting how you describe your husband as not having to work at keeping it off. Because what the research shows of the people who lose weight and keep it off is that those people are, you know, fairly obsessed with every little calorie that goes into their body and with every little bit of exercise they do to burn calories. So that’s what I expect to hear when I hear that people kept it off for a long time but one thing that I’ve been wondering about lately and no one has done the study that I know of and I don’t actually even know how to do this study but I’ve been wondering like, the people who lose a lot of weight and keep it off are those people who had happened to recently gain a bunch of weight but weren’t normally really heavy? You know what I mean, like I’m wondering if those who end up taking, you know, people who have had this unusual weight gain as opposed to people who are just always some high weight and took it off. Lauren: Yeah we see. Jen: I have theories. Go ahead, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah, we kind of see this and this is, I think, kind of in my story too, we see people who start dieting at a young age, right and then they just keep putting on weight as they do the rebound and you know, their weight wasn’t maybe supposed to be quite that high but because of the dieting it keeps going up. Dr. Mann: It got inflated from their- Lauren: Yeah and so for me, when I, after I stopped dieting and I did gain a lot of weight, when I finally went came to this place of balance my weight did go down and I think it’s kind of just like that it came back to its normal range. Jen: My husband also, I haven’t seen any research on this, he has put on a significant amount of muscle over the years so he, you know, at 18 years old, he didn’t go to the gym. He just, you know, his body composition is completely different, he, you can just tell by looking at pictures of him that he had a substantial amount of body fat and then after he left high school he got into boxing and ended up boxing professionally or sorry I should say semi professional, he’s just going to die, when he listens to this, I’ll just give him a little plug, he won the gold medal at the Canadian games in 2007 for boxing. Dr. Mann: Wow. Jen:  I know, amazing, but he just gets so embarrassed when I talk about this. Dr. Mann: You know, just to revise what I was saying, he’s an elite athlete. Jen: Well, he wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say now, I think he’s got more like Dad bod now but he did, he just, he got into, so what we tell our girls in Balance365 is to find movement they like, like if you and you talk about this in your book that if you don’t like what you’re doing you’re never going to stick to it and so when I say my husband doesn’t work at it, it’s not that he doesn’t prioritize exercise and doesn’t prioritize a balanced way to eat, he really enjoys that so it’s not that, so I think what what happens is there are people out there that are just never, they’re never going to enjoy my husband’s lifestyle. I’m not athletic and I am not competitive. I would never have enjoyed training for a boxing match like that or several boxing matches so, but through that- Dr. Mann: I don’t think I would like that either. Jen: Right and so you have to kind of go, you know, and Annie, for example, Annie crossfits like 4-5 times a week which helps her to sustain that 40 pound fat loss that she has done but and so it’s like Annie, personally, doesn’t feel like she wakes up in the morning and micromanages her weight loss, however if I had to get up everyday and go to Crossfit 4-5 times a week, that would feel like I was micromanaging my loss, do you know what I’m saying? Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true, so everyone needs to just find a sort of a set of lifestyle habits that aren’t soul crushing for them. Jen: Right, for them and that’s the sort of key that it’s like, what do you like to do and it may not be what somebody else does and so you won’t get the results that person has gotten but hey, that’s OK, like, let’s just be sensible here kind of thing. Dr. Mann: True, I mean, like in the last year or so I’ve had this just chronic hamstring injury, just won’t get better no matter how long it just doesn’t get better and you know, finally my physical therapist was like, you know, it doesn’t hurt when you do spin class, doesn’t hurt when you do yoga, it hurts when you run. It’s like exactly that part of the answer and she’s like “You have to not run” and somehow, her saying that I don’t have to go all winter onto the treadmill, it’s like so freeing to allow myself to do the kinds of exercise that I, I don’t want to say enjoy but that I don’t hate. Annie: Right. Dr. Mann: Even though to me they don’t seem as potent You know, I mean like, my brain is running this but I feel like, you know, all signs are that I’m just as healthy as if I were running as long as I’m doing these other activities and it’s not miserable. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So thank you, Christina, for freeing me from feeling like I have to use the freaking treadmill. Lauren: Can I, can I go back to, I want to go back to something that Jen said because this. is something that I’ve been wondering about when we hear this about the set weight range is that total weight or is that like fat percentage? Because we do see people who do build muscle, right and they’re the same weight but their body composition is very different, like, how do you know how that plays into this? Dr. Mann: I don’t. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone talking about set weight ranges in any way other than referring to weight. I’ve not heard anyone describe it in terms of muscle mass. Lauren: OK. It’s always something I’ve wondered. Dr. Mann: I don’t think people have, yeah, at least I’ve not encountered it. Jen: Yeah, I’m curious. If you end up putting on this muscle mass and it leads to your total body weight being, you know, a little bit- Lauren: Are the same as what your mass was with less muscle then is that sort of like a “trick” for your body in that it’s like, oh, we’re, you know, we’re the same weight and so you see people that change their body but your body is like “But I still weigh this much and I still need this amount of calories to sustain me.” That might be a future research project for you. Annie: That would reflect my experience, for sure because I have, like, probably a 6 to 7 I would say pound weight range that I have not budged from for maybe a couple years but my body composition has changed within that. A couple of percent, I mean, to me it’s been noticeable but I cannot, like, I have to work really, really hard to get out of that range either above or below it. Dr. Mann: That’s really interesting. So yeah, that might be a good trick, you know, don’t worry about the number, just try to replace some more of that fat with more muscle. Jen: Yeah and I think my husband probably has benefited hugely from his, his body composition is completely different than when he was 18 and I think he’s still a very heavy man, right he’s still like 240 pounds, he’s a heavy man but he’s not, he just has way less fat mass and more muscle mass on him, right? Dr. Mann: That’s great. I never thought about that, very interesting. Jen: Alright. Annie: We will come be your test subjects. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Be happy to take a trip to the eating lab up north or kind of down south. Jen: Down south for me. Annie: Yeah, for Jen. Dr. Mann: You’re in Canada. Jen: Yeah, I’m in British Columbia. Yeah. Annie: Yeah, I feel like that’s kind of a good segue talking about, you know, how much your habits or lack thereof kind of consume you because one of the most common comments we get from members or of our community is that they feel like they just need more willpower, more motivation, more self-discipline and if they have those things then they could, like, just stick to their diet, they could stick to their plan, they could reach their goals, right and I know that as a researcher of self-discipline you’ve noted that you’ve heard that echoed as well, that when you share with people that you’re researching that they’re like “Oh yeah, I want more of that” or “How do I get more of that?” In your experience, is more willpower needed? Is that what people are missing? Dr. Mann: No, no, people are missing, so every dieter thinks they are uniquely bad at resisting tempting food, you know, I mean, like, something you sort of alluded to it but constantly people come up to me after talks and or like before talks, “Oh God, self-control, I need more of that, you know, that’s a good thing that I happen to need, me alone, you know,” but everyone is bad at self-control. Everyone struggles with their willpower, thin people, fat people and everyone in between. It’s not the thing that tells us who is going to end up thin and who’s not, you know what I mean, everyone struggles with it, in fact, there’s these, this group of psychologists called positive psychologists that study, like, human strengths, so things like kindness or creativity, or thoughtfulness and what they find is that like the kinds of things that all range really highly kindness, thoughtfulness, people generally believe that they are kind and generally believe they’re thoughtful, the one that comes in dead last every time is self-control. People do not think they have self-control and they’ve repeated that kind of survey in like 53 countries. Jen: Wow. Dr. Mann: It was always at or very, very near the bottom. Nobody thinks they have good self-control, it’s not, it’s not unique to dieters, it’s everyone and it wouldn’t matter if everybody had great self-control because of the environment we all live in and there’s probably no amount that would be enough to survive the onslaught of temptation every minute of the day. Jen: Is this what you would say is the obesogenic environment? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that is what we’re living in and I mean, I shouldn’t have to try to resist buying a candy bar when I’m in Office Depot, buying paper for my printer. Jen: Right and you don’t. Dr. Mann: That should not be a temptation challenge, you know. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: You know, it’s everywhere, all the time. Jen: Right, there’s candy, I don’t know if you guys have staples down there but we have Staples and it’s like an Office Depot and there is candy at the checkout, it’s everywhere. Dr. Mann: A huge selection, I mean and really kind of awesome candy selection. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: At office supply stores for some reason. Jen: So there’s and there’s, I don’t know if this is same down there, but in Canada there is a push to have, like, basically temptation free aisles, so candy free aisles specifically for parents bringing their children to shop because I just argue with my kids nonstop about not buying candy, so then it becomes this thing that children begin to focus on and then they develop these scarcity issues or because there’s just candy and they see it and you’re saying no but and so the other thing that they’ve started offering in grocery stores here is they have apple bins for children so when you are shopping with your kids you take your kids to the apple bin and they can munch on an apple while you’re shopping and this kind of stuff is brilliant, I think. Dr. Mann: Definitely, you know, it all fits the sort of general basic strategy of rearranging things so that you don’t keep encountering temptation. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you don’t encounter it, you’re not going to have it. Annie: And that was kind of like a, I don’t want to say a will power hack, but that was one of the things you mentioned in your book that, like, you don’t have to rely so much on willpower or self-control or self-discipline or say no all the time if you can curate your environment to reduce those temptations, right ? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. Ideally you don’t want to ever have to say no, you know, ideally you just don’t want to come up, you know. Once a food is on your plate, for example, forget it, you’re eating it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you want to keep things from getting to that point where there’s no hope of resisting it. Jen: Right and we, like, even small things, we were talking about this with our Balance365 community the other day. Simple things like dishing up dinner at the island or on the stove and taking it to the table rather than having all your dishes on the table to dish up from is just a really small hack that you could use to not have seconds or to not, you know, over dish up kind of thing. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that works because, as we talk about a lot in the book, because people are lazy and small obstacles slow us or stop us. That’s a small obstacle. I could get up from the table and walk 4 feet. That is shocking how many people that stops. Lauren: And I’ve heard you talk about it’s not even just getting up but just moving it further than your arm can reach. Dr. Mann: There’s actually a study that shows that one of my colleagues in the Netherlands literally straining your arm is enough to slow people down. Annie: That’s like the, there’s, I have a salt lamp on the opposite side of my room when I turn it on at night and half the time I get into bed and I’m like “Ugh, that lamp is still on” and I swear more often than not I just sleep with it on because I’m too lazy to get out of bed to turn the lamp on, so like I cannot be inconvenienced. Dr. Mann: I am going to one up you on that sometimes I’m in bed on my back but I really prefer to sleep on my side and I just can’t muster the energy to like just friggin roll half my body over, half! Annie: That and you actually, you actually cover small inconveniences or small opticals is also covered in your book because you tell a story about is it toilet paper. Dr. Mann: Yes, I read that online, as, I was so excited when I read that online so it was a budget tip for strapped households was to when you get the roll toilet paper to smush it a little so that it doesn’t turn easily. Jen: Brilliant. Dr. Mann: You know, so when you go to pull it off it tears off right away, so that leads people to use less toilet paper. Jen: That, I need that for my children. Dr. Mann: Actually it’s good for if you have kids. Jen: They plug the toilet. I’m in there with the plunger once a week. Dr. Mann: It would also help with that but you know, just the fact that it stops a regular adult person from using more toilet paper is another example of how small, miniscule obstacles actually really slow us down. Jen: And Lauren, Lauren only buys single servings of ice cream so that was another one. Lauren: Well, they have them at Kroger, like the little ones ,they’re, like, you know, like, this big instead of the pint or the gallon. Annie: They’re like a little cup or like six ounces or something, 8 ounces. Lauren: Yeah or I just go out to like Dairy Queen or something instead of buying the whole gallon in my house. Dr. Mann: Buy the one. Lauren: Or even just for me is like if we make cookies or something, just putting them in the cabinet and sort of leaving them on the counter, right, we used to just leave it on the counter but if I just put it in the cabinet where I don’t see it every time I walk in the kitchen I end up just forgetting about it. Dr. Mann: Yes, keep temptations out of sights. Jen: We have a saying in our community. We also have a free Facebook community that has 40000 women in it, so they just participate in our philosophy, they haven’t bought our program but one thing we talk about in there is there’s this whole veggie tray revolution and so I started it a couple years ago and my aunt gave me a hand me down, an old circular Tupperware veggie tray and I stocked that veggie tray Sundays and Wednesdays because, like, we just eat it all by Wednesdays now, so that has substantially, and having that front and center in my fridge has substantially increased my family’s vegetable intake and I even take it out during meals. If we’re having grilled cheese sandwiches, the veggie tray will go on the table. Dr. Mann: And so it’s all prepared, like, they’re all clean. Jen: Yes, I have washed them, I chopped them I and I just it’s like, if I just need to do the minimum to set us up for success for the week it’s just that veggie tray takes me under 10 minutes and so we open the fridge and it’s just right there and we’ve also moved our treats to the cupboard above the fridge so I need to get a stool out to get out chocolate and chips and you know, people, you know, these things are simple and they work, you know, and but people just, you know, you tell them but they just, if they’re not, they’re still looking there’s like this magic pill thing going on. They don’t think it can be that simple but it is. Dr. Mann: And so the veggie tray is a good example of removing the obstacles to do something healthy. Jen: Exactly, yes, exactly. Dr. Mann: If you look in the fridge and you want a snack, you’re not going to like pull open the veggie bin, you know, get out the beats, break them, clean them, cook them- Jen: No, I’m not. Dr. Mann: But if you do that ahead, and you have a little bowl or tupperware of roasted beets, you will eat them. Jen: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Mann: Vegetables are hard work. Jen: They are hard work and so is protein. So the other thing we’ve tried to bring to people’s attention is that carbs and fat are readily available to us in convenience form everywhere, so if you want to be eating a more balanced diet, focus your energy on getting protein and vegetables and fruit prepared and as convenient to you as the nuts and the seeds and the bread and you know all of that kind of thing, because they take a lot of prep work, right. So the other thing I do is I just throw some chicken breasts in a slow cooker on Sunday night and then I take it out and I shred it and I just have a little container of shredded chicken breast which I can throw in sandwiches or wraps or do you know what I mean? So- Dr. Mann: Yeah. Jen: So yeah, it’s little, little things like that have made the biggest difference in my life and in our Balance365ers as well. Dr. Mann: That’s great, that’s good, that’s just making it easier to do the healthy thing.  Jen: Just environment. Dr. Mann: Harder to do the unhealthy thing. Jen: Yeah, just acknowledging that we’re lazy. Annie: And that’s across the board, like, your research has shown that it’s across the board, like humans in general are lazy, it’s not like these people, like, you know it’s not just me, Jen and Lauren that don’t want to prep our veggies or whatever, it’s like this is human nature and so and I feel like that’s kind of refreshing to hear because it’s not kind of, it’s very refreshing to hear because again, so many people are blaming themselves for why they can’t follow the diet, why they can’t stick with the program, it’s like, look you’re just human, like, you’re asking yourself to change a lot of things at once, to do a lot of stuff that’s really not in your wheelhouse. And it’s normal if you struggle with that. Dr. Mann: And also, can I just add, because sometimes people are like, well, all those strategies you’re saying just sound like, you know, dieting tips. Jen: Yes, they do. Dr. Mann: I don’t really mean them to be dieting tips, I mean them to be, these are just little things that you can just kind of have as habits in your life that will just help you stay in that sort of the lower part of your set point. I’m not saying that by moving the cookies to higher shelf you’re going to lose a ton of weight. Jen: Or that you should never have cookies, right. It’s not about, yeah. Dr. Mann: Right, exactly I’m just saying these are just some things that help you to just kind of stay on an even keel or maybe just aim for that slightly lower part of your set range that you’re already within. Jen: There’s, I wanted to address that too, as well because I feel like there is, as far as environment, there is a lot of tips you can use and they can be used as tools or they can be used as weapons against you, right and so in diet culture these things are often used as weapons and it’s funny because I used to some of the tools I use today to stay healthy, balanced and at a leaner weight, I used to use when I was dieting trying to live a weight below what was healthy for me and I was going hungry all the time, so what would happen to me was I wouldn’t buy the cookies, I wouldn’t buy the ice cream. I didn’t want any of that in my house because my cravings were so strong because I was going hungry all the time, so when that stuff was occasionally brought in my house I would eat it all. I would go nutso on a pint of ice cream in a night or a gallon and so it’s kind of like talking in a nuanced way, right, to go like, “You can use these as tools or you can use them as weapons, it all depends on where you’re at and what’s going on inside your head.” Dr. Mann: That’s really true and that’s a really important point that when you deny yourself something, when you restrict certain categories of foods or certain foods it’s going to eventually backfire. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: It’s amazing how fast you start to want those things you restrict. I mean, we did a study like this, I think I talk about it in the book where we forbade people from eating a food that they didn’t even love, right, it was sort of in the middle for I can’t remember how long- Jen: 3 weeks I think. Dr. Mann: Yeah. Annie: Radishes. Jen: I feel like I just know your book. Annie: Radishes and chocolate for 3 weeks? Dr. Mann: I better know my details well, in any case, the point I was trying to make about that, the main point of that study just was that very quickly they started really wanting those things that they couldn’t have. So not worth it to deny yourself certain things and instead try to just eat those things in reasonable portions. So I cannot live without ice cream and there’s really no reason to do so but my ice cream trick, when you guys mentioned some of yours, I’ll add one more is I make my husband serve me because he will serve a reasonable portion and put it away and our freezer is crazy cold so it’s not even going to be easy to take more because it’s just, you know, he’ll wait and do what you need to do. So let people wait on you, folks. Annie: That’s just good life advice. Jen: Yes, the other one thing for your freezer- Lauren: I can get behind that. Jen: I bake for my kids for their school lunches and I keep it in the freezer so I, if I want banana chocolate chip muffin it’s totally fine but I have to think about that, right, I have to take it out and then I have to unthaw it in order for me to eat it where, you know, just talking about those barriers in environment, just putting a little bit of barrier between you and that thing causes you to pause and go “Do I really want this or is this just an impulse?” Dr. Mann: Exactly, you need that pause. My 14 year old son is obsessed with baking. Well, you know, classic pre-teen boy, you know, scrawny, looks like a paper clip, you know, no body fat at all. But he’s killing me there are constantly baking here and the good news is he’s obnoxious and doesn’t always let me have any because he wants to take it all the school because he brings it to a certain class, you know, there’s 24 kids in that class. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Every recipe makes 24 so he often doesn’t let me have any, thank God, but a lot of the time he does and it’s like once or twice a week this is going on in my house. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of like baking. Jen: Extra baking. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of baking. Jen: Yes. Annie: So, Dr. Mann, I know we’re approaching an hour, I feel like we could do this for the whole time though or a couple hours at least, just to kind of wrap up, all of your research and your experience, personal and professional, inside your book as we’ve shared so much already, you provide a lot of gold little nuggets as to how people can improve their health, reframe their mindsets, even thinking about food in terms of healthy and unhealthy, how to alter their habits to support sustainable weight loss if that’s what they’re after but really, you seem to boil it down to just, as Jen said, sensible no-fuss advice, like exercise regularly and create reasonable eating habits and that you believe that that will help you reach your goals with minimal effort, is that really it? Because if so, that super refreshing. Dr. Mann: That is it. But I will elaborate a little bit because here’s where we have to get our heads and our heads are not there yet but  where we need to get our heads is if we are exercising the recommended amount, which is 150 minutes per week if we are eating, you know, a reasonable number of servings of vegetables per day and if we’re keeping our stress level under control, not smoking, if we’re doing those things, whatever we weigh when we’re doing those things should be where we want to be. We need to define that weight as our perfect weight because that is what you weigh when you’re behaving in a healthy way. So, I don’t know, this comes up all the time with people. Everyone thinks “if I do the exercise I’m supposed to do I’ll get thin,” but that’s not true. Exercise doesn’t necessarily make you a lot thinner but it does make you healthier. What I keep pushing on people is “Behaving in healthy ways makes you healthier, even though it might not make you thinner or as much thinner as you want it to.” So whatever we weigh when we’re behaving in healthy ways we have got to find a way to be OK with that. Jen: Right, except you have a whole section on acceptance, right and let your, do what’s good for you and let your body be what it’s going to be and just accept this, like it’s actually so freeing. Dr. Mann: Yes, just if you keep the focus on health and not weight everything makes so much more sense. Jen: Yeah, I love that. Dr. Mann: You do these healthy behaviors, they make you healthier, but then again, maybe not thinner, maybe not as much thinner as you want. Annie: I wonder how many of our listeners minds are just like blowing right now hearing that. Like, behaving in a healthy way will make you healthier, it might not make you thinner but it will improve your health. Dr. Mann: Isn’t it crazy that that’s mind blowing?  I said that to some radio guy one time and he’s like “I don’t know, that’s kind of a hard sell.” Lauren: You know, well, it’s only a hard sell because you have, you know, diet companies telling you the opposite everywhere all day, every day. Dr. Mann: Seriously, you know, And because people don’t actually value their health the way they all say they do. Jen: Yeah, they value thinness. Dr. Mann: Yeah, if people truly valued health, that wouldn’t be a remarkable thing to say at all. Jen: We had a psychologist post in our group the other day she had read your book preparing for this podcast and she said “I’m a psychologist and I’m reading this book and I feel my resistance towards it, like, I feel it” and she, but you know, she’s acknowledging, like, “This is programming. This is diet culture,” so she was trying to tell everybody, like, “I am a professional and I am resisting this, like, I have a mental block there that I don’t want to hear it. I still want to believe there’s a magic pill out there” and so of course, the general population that isn’t even educated with psychology, you know, of course, there’s a massive block there, massive. Dr. Mann: And I see that and I see that in anonymous comments out there, the people who come up to me are like, “This is freeing, this changes everything, hallelujah” and the people who are like, “I can’t, no, I must believe that I can lose a ton of weight and keep it off.” Yeah, I don’t hear from those people I just hear mean comments. Jen: Right, but they just pursue people who that, whose ideas support their, you know, how they want to see the world right and you know what, honestly, when I embraced these ideals, it was, I went through a pretty big slump of emotion, like, it was like grief. I had to grieve and because it was, yeah, it was, it was an idea that I had based a lot of my life around and spent a lot of time energy and money and the more invested you’re into something, the more you resist that it doesn’t work and trying to convince different gurus or fitness professionals that have built their whole careers and social followings on selling thinness, trying to convince them of that will be even harder because they are so deeply invested in it. Dr. Mann: Oh yeah, they’re the worst. Jen: And so I think a grieving process is like pretty normal when you, like, you have the freedom but then it’s like, you know, you go through these different stages of, like, “Oh, well that sucks” or you feel somebody shame come up and your trigger, that’s kind of your trigger that typically will take you into dieting behaviors to feel like you’re actually in control of that but you’re not and you’re just realizing, “I am not in control” and that can be very depressing, right but but also very freeing on the other side once you fully accept that/ Dr. Mann: Yeah, again, we just have to remember the one thing that truly, truly matters is our health. Jen: Yes. Absolutely. Dr. Mann: You know, have someone close to you die too young and suddenly it becomes very, very real, you know, you have nothing without your health. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So keep that in mind as the goal. The goal is health. Not some number on the scale and they don’t measure health with that number on the scale. Jen: Right and and including psychological health in that because I have had people around me succumb to eating disorders and that’s a very real thing in our society and it has very, anorexia has very high mortality rates and so- Dr. Mann: The highest of any mental illness. Jen: Yes and so and it’s just a horrible life, right even if you don’t, even if it doesn’t lead to you passing away and dying, it’s a horrible place to be and it is not healthy and it’s, you know, this is very real as far as, you know, a lot of people think of unhealthy as, you know, very large and morbidly obese and eating and eating but there is the other end where there’s a lot of people succumbing to eating disorders as well. Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true. Annie: Dr. Mann, I cannot thank you enough. This is so much fun. Is there a place that people can connect with you? Do you hang out on, I already stalked you on Instagram it doesn’t look like you’re- Dr. Mann: I never post, I’m basically on Instagram to spy on my 14 year old. I don’t expect he’ll see this. Annie: Excellent. Are you on Facebook or your website? Where can people catch up with you or stay on top of what you’re working on? Dr. Mann: I guess I’m on Facebook or Twitter more but again, on Facebook I post but mostly political stuff, on Twitter I only lurk, I’m there,  if you want to find me, if you want to talk to me, tweet at me. Annie: OK. Jen: OK. Dr. Mann: Or do the same on Facebook. Annie: Awesome we’ll put that in the show notes so people can connect with you if they want to follow up with you but this was so fun. It was just like talking to a friend that knows a lot about nutrition. Dr. Mann: It sounds like you’re doing awesome stuff so I’m so glad you’re out there doing it. Annie: Yeah, we’re trying. Jen: Thank you. Lauren: Thank you. Annie: OK, we’ll talk soon ladies, thanks for joining us. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Alright, bye!   The post 53: Secrets from the Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann appeared first on Balance365.

Can you love your body and still want to change it? The answer to this question depends greatly on who you ask. Some people in the body-positive camp think that weight loss and self-love can’t co-exist, while the diet and fitness industry encourages self-hatred. Does the truth lie somewhere in the messy middle? Tune in for Jen, Annie and Lauren’s discussion on the topic.   What you’ll hear in this episode: Has the body positivity pendulum swung too far? Change as a natural consequence of habits and behaviors Mindset blocks and change What research says about how much control you have over your body Altering appearance for self-expression Examining motivations for changes Being realistic about timing of changes Is there way too much overthinking going on? Mothering yourself Identifying when you need self-compassion and when you need tough love The answer to the question of the day!   Resources: Secrets From The Eating Lab Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Can self-love and a desire to change your physical being co-exist or are they a contradiction of one another? The answer to that question is debatable depending on who you’re asking. On one hand of the body positive camp say body love and weight loss can not co-mingle while it seems as if the rest of the diet industry requires a certain amount of body dissatisfaction as a prerequisite to change. There is no doubt in our minds that the push for body acceptance of all shapes and sizes is a much needed message but what about those individuals who want self-acceptance and still desire to change their bodies?This is a quite complex and messy topic and on today’s episode Jen, Lauren and I share Balance365’s stance on how you can strive for change that’s rooted in self-love and acceptance and joy. Ladies, welcome back to another episode how are you? Lauren: Good. Annie: Why? Why can’t you just answer the question? Jen: I feel like you need to address us individually because what happens is, what people can’t see behind the scenes is we are actually on a video conference call looking at each other so then you are like “Ladies, how are you?” and then Lauren and I stare at each other waiting for the other ones to answer first. Lauren: Who’s going to go first? Annie: Quit being so polite and just answer the question. Lauren, how are you doing? Lauren: I am so wonderful, how are you? Annie: I am golden, thank you. Jen, how are you? Jen: Also wonderful. Annie: I feel like that was just so surface-level answers but we’ll go with it. Jen: Well, if you want to do a deep dive in my problems lately. Annie: Would you like to schedule a coaching call with one of the Balance365 coaches. Jen: Well, I need a new podcast called the Jen show. And I’ll just get all weeps and vent. Annie: I do feel like you’ve used some of our podcast episodes to kind of sort through some of your own issues about exercise. Jen: Yeah, but you know what? It’s helpful for people because my problems are their problems. That’s the narcissist in me. I struggle with things a lot of women struggle with. It can be helpful to go through it with a coach. I actually have a really good idea for a podcast series and that’s to bring on Balance365ers on to the podcast and coach them through whatever block they’re struggling with and sending that out to all of our listeners. Don’t you think that’s a good idea? Annie: I do, yeah and all jokes aside, you’re right, you do have a problems. Jen: I am your average busy working mom that struggles to make time for self care and yeah, that’s why I think our podcast resonates with so many women because we all have surpassed 200,000 downloads I’ll just add that in too. We are not standing on our high horses telling everybody what to do, we struggle with all the same things, have struggled in the past currently or we may in the future so yeah, we’re all in this together. I hope everybody feels that way when they listen and talk to us. Annie: I feel like that just got really serious, like we started out all jokey. Lauren: It started out all good and quickly. Annie: You can always count on Jen- Lauren: To make it an intense counselling session. Annie: To turn it into a serious, sentimental intense conversation. Jen: I’m an INFJ. I like intense conversations. Lauren: I don’t remember what my letters are but they’re the opposite of Jen. Jen: Yeah, we could have called that without you going through the test. Annie: OK. All jokes aside, we do have a kind of a heavy topic today, it’s something, it’s a question that comes up so frequently in our community, so frequently in the diet and fitness world and something that we’ve addressed inside our community but not on the podcast yet and that is “Can you love your body and still want to change it?” and by changing it we mean address your body composition, gain weight, lose weight, change your appearance of some sort and that’s a pretty big snowball to tackle, right? And depending on who you ask you’re likely to get a variety of answers. Extreme body positive activists will tell you that body love and weight loss cannot co-exist, do not co-exist and on the flip-side many professionals in our industry or the diet industry in general as a whole that support weight loss believe that self loathing and body dissatisfaction is a prerequisite to changing a body and here we are as the 3 co-founders of Balance365 yet again in the messy middle, right? Lauren: Yup. Jen: Yup: Annie: And so we’re, you know, again, the answer to that question is going to depend on what camp you’re asking, right? So we’re going to answer this question or discuss some of the talking points that we consider when helping our community members evaluate “Can you love your body and still want to change it? Can they co-exist?” and I think we can all agree that this body acceptance movement or accepting yourself at every shape and size is a much needed message for our culture. But what we’re experiencing is that those who still want to make changes are kind of like, “Well, what about me? What do I do? What, like, how, where do I fall into?” and sadly, it feels like in some ways the pendulum has swung a bit too far in one direction, especially when members of our community are feeling shamed for wanting to change their body still or they’re keeping it a secret or they’re afraid to tell anyone. And that, to us, isn’t neutral or an expression of body autonomy which we are super supportive and this is tricky because on some levels what we do in Balance365 is give women the tools and support they need to reach their goals, which can include weight loss, while simultaneously encouraging them to love and accept themselves and there are people out there who believe that these two concepts contradict one another, which is kind of the debate of the moment, right? Now in our industry “Can you love yourself and want to change it?” Does that mean that you don’t ultimately love yourself if you still want to change yourself? Do you have any thoughts, Jen? Jen: Well, newsflash, almost any change, lifestyle change you make in your life and do consistently is going to change your body because our bodies are always in flux and although they are a representation of our genetics and our environment, they are also a representation of our habits. So I recently changed my mode of exercise. I have gone a couple years of just doing like shorter more intense workouts and now I’m back into a phase where I have the time and opportunity and support to do some heavy lifting. I’m actually going through the Arms Like Annie program that a lot of women in our community are which is a strength training program, full body strength training program, heavy weights and guess what? My body is going to change because that’s what bodies do, they adapt to the stresses you put them under. So this I really see as a big mindset block for a lot of people, whether it’s trying to hate their body to change or resisting change because they’ve learned to love their bodies. I got some really good advice this last spring. I was struggling with a certain mindset around business and money. I was at a conference and I was talking to a man who has built multiple companies and sold them and is a multi multi millionaire. He told me he lives on a street in San Francisco and sometimes he walks out and looks down the street and can’t believe that he could buy every house on the block if he wanted to. But he grew up extremely poor and so why we connected is because I grew up without a lot of financial privilege and I find that affects me today but the advice he gave me that I now see is so universal, he said “You are so busy fighting battles in your head that you are never going to be able to get out there and fight the war” and I honestly see this as one of those mindset blocks, one of those blocks that women run into like and makes them freeze and then they expend this time and energy on it. Do I want to change my body? Don’t I want to change my body? Why do I want to change my body? And then they’re just missing the whole thing that change needs to come from a place of self care and if you are taking action on something that feels like you are caring for yourself, nurturing yourself, mothering yourself, then who cares what the outcome is? Maybe your body will get smaller, maybe it will get bigger, I don’t know. Annie: You just ran through my 3 bullet points in like five minutes. Jen: I’m sorry. I did not read the outline. Annie: So Jen summarized that so well and so concisely we can just end the podcast now. I’m just kidding but you’re spot on. You’re, it’s such a good point that you’re so busy, what did you say? You’re so busy fighting battles- Jen: You’re so busy fighting battles in your head you’re never going to get out there and fight the war and this is what we deal with in an ongoing basis in Balance365, any of our Balance365ers listening will say, “Yeah, she’s right. I mean there are so many women posting daily working through these mindset blocks” and it’s really those different programmings that we have that keep us from actually taking action and doing the things that we want to do or need to do in our lives to feel our best, like our best selves. Lauren: Yeah I was writing something earlier about this kind of exact thing, like the mindset piece that we put first is so important because when you get through that the nutrition habits and exercise habits are so simple, like they’re simple. What trips us up is like these mindset blocks like you’re talking about. Annie: And you know, I just want to back up too and I hope this is inferred and I hope that you can just sense this about us by the way we carry ourselves and the way our program is written and laid out but we absolutely believe in body autonomy and we believe that the individual has control over who and what they use their body for and for what and how long and that means that we respect to variety of goals women may have for their bodies and women come to our program with goals of building self-love and healthy habits and some come with a clear goal of weight loss and we don’t place moral value on either goal over the other. We believe that they’re all worthy and we’re here to help women achieve their goals, whatever they are. Jen: We have women share with us in Balance365 that once they really get that self acceptance piece and love their bodies they’re so afraid of losing it because nobody wants to go back there once you’re not there anymore you don’t ever want to go back in that space. So then they start the habit building process and they start losing weight and that puts them into a negative space almost of self sabotage because weight loss then becomes triggering to them as in “Wait a sec. I worked so hard to love that body and now it’s changing again” and the other thing like, newsflash, our bodies are always going to change every single day we are getting older so our hormones are changing, we’re  getting wrinkles, we’re, you know, our hair color is changing. I mean, our bodies are always changing and I think that is the biggest acceptance piece that needs to happen is your body is always changing so stop this hypervigilance on trying to control it. Annie: Right and I think that getting clear on the why behind your desire to change your body can help answer some of those questions and so often we see women wanting to change their bodies and it’s rooted in self hate or this misconception that if you fix your body you’ll love your life and your life will be perfect and you’ll have the perfect body or ultimately that you want to feel worthy and you want to feel free of shame and you want to have this loving and belonging and it’s our experience that you can’t hate your body into loving yourself and nor can you hate your body into being healthy and if that had worked I think we would have a heck of a lot more “success stories” in our lives than we really do, right? Jen: The greatest act of self love is loving yourself when you think nobody else will, so when you aren’t fitting into society’s mold of what is lovable, right, so it’s, you know, so if you do have a larger body there is a lot of good and value there of learning to love and accept yourself at a larger size before, you know, before the weight loss journey comes, if it ever comes, you know, whatever your choice but you know, it’s like only loving your kids when they’re well behaved, right, like, when, you can just love your body when it’s doing what you want it to be doing and you can’t just love yourself when your behaviors are on point, right, your nutrition’s on point, your exercise is on point, your rockin’ life, you love yourself but then as soon as your behaviors are off track you’re filled with these self loathing thoughts. That’s not love, that’s just like surface level approval. Annie: That’s conditioned. That’s conditioned love. That’s not and ultimately I think what a lot of us would really like and are striving for is to love ourselves unconditionally. Meaning our body can look a variety of ways, our behaviors can look a variety of ways and we still can treat ourselves with compassion that we would so many other people in our lives. Jen: Yeah, another good analogy I use sometimes with women is I moved into a house, a new house about a year and a half ago and it’s an older house and there was people that lived here before us that decorated, painted, designed to this house in a way that suited them but is not to my tastes at all. So, for example, my bathroom is lime green and I hate it, I hate it but I still love my home. I am still grateful to live in this home. This is the nicest home I’ve ever lived in. Growing up as a little girl my mother couldn’t have dreamed of providing this kind of house for me as a kid so every day I wake up I feel like I’m living in my dream home but my bathroom is lime green. Yes, I do want to change that color eventually. I haven’t yet, it just, I haven’t had time, it has been the right time but eventually I will paint the bathroom, I will do some renovations around this house to change it but that doesn’t, that doesn’t take away from the unconditional love and gratitude I have for this home and I wish that people could feel that way about their bodies. Sometimes there are changes that you want to make and as long as those are realistic and within your realm of control the problem is there is just such polarizing views. There’s this whole view that you mentioned at the start, Annie ,there’s this whole idea that you have complete control over what your body looks like and then there’s the other end of the spectrum people saying “You actually have no control over what your body looks like so don’t even bother thinking about it” but I think it was Dr Tracy Mann, we’re interviewing her on our podcast pretty soon here which is really exciting but she has in her books that studies in her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, studies show that it’s in the middle, you know, as usual, we actually do- Lauren: That messy middle.   Jen: Yes, like you can’t change your genetics, of course, but there are certain behaviors we have in our life that will affect the way our bodies look and feel and I think her stats are we have about a 30 percent, 30 percent of the way we look is we’re able to manipulate, which is probably a lot less than some people think and a lot more than other people think and so it’s OK. It’s OK. You can have total love for your body. You can have gratitude for the body that you were given. You can have acceptance of the genes that you have and you can still say, “You know what, I would love to reduce my abdominal body fat and I am going to step forward making change in a way that will reduce the fat I have on my body and that is coming from a place of self-love and self care and also being realistic.” Annie: And I think the important distinction there, Jen, that you’re, in terms of your bathroom, is striving for change doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it, it’s just different. It’s not good or bad- Jen: Yeah. Annie: I mean I mean to you the lime green might be bad but- Jen: Yeah, I mean, but how some people behave about their bodies is that, taking it back to the house, they would just throw gas around this house and light it on fire like that because they don’t like the way the bathroom looks and here’s the thing, it’s also knowing that there’s a time to address that and not right, like, I have recognized over the last 18 months that trying to make any changes to the interior of my home were just not realistic. I just haven’t had the time or the resources or the money to pay somebody so we haven’t done it and there’s a time to change and then there’s a time to hold the line and just, but you can still wake up every morning and be grateful, right, like it doesn’t have to be something urgent in, like, you know, you can’t love yourself or respect yourself until you have this but I mean, we talk about it in terms of bodies but I mean there’s a lot of people that get hysteria over their house as well because it’s where they live in. Annie:  Yeah or you love your job, you enjoy your job but you want to improve in a particular skill set or – Jen: Yes. Annie: You enjoy your marriage, you love your spouse, your partner, your significant other but you wish you could spend more time on date nights or as you noted you love your children but you wish they would listen better at bedtime but you can, we believe wholeheartedly, that you can want to change an aspect or an element of yourself, your appearance, your being, whatever it is and that come from self love, that come from a place of love and care and admiration for yourself, versus- Jen: It’s not that you are more or less worthy with these changes, which is really that key component, right, like I go in and color my hair, I get blonde highlights every 3 or 4 months or so or 10 months. And it’s like, I just like it and I don’t see myself as the less worth, if I, you know, for whatever reason, if I had to go back to my, you know, grow it all out and have it just have my natural hair color, I wouldn’t be like, you know, feeling awful about myself, it would just be “Oh, like, I love coloring my hair. I wear makeup, you know.” There’s all these things, right but like- Lauren: Our outward appearance can be an expression right we are and people have different preferences, people like different hair colors and different hair styles and different makeup styles, that’s OK. It doesn’t mean like we don’t love ourselves if we’re not wearing makeup and that’s how we can use that analogy when we’re talking about our bodies. Like, you don’t have to, we say this all the time, you don’t have to love every little tiny part to love the whole, right? Annie: That’s exactly how I feel about muscles, to me they’re like an accessory, like they’re like my favorite accessory. It is honestly, it’s an act of self-expression for me to have visible muscles. Now if for whatever reason I didn’t have the visible muscles, you know, it might be an adjustment but I ultimately know that I am a human of value, of worth, just innately, not because I look a certain way, not because I can do certain things in the gym with my muscles that look a certain way. I just have value because I’m a human, as do all all women, and I mean and it’s so easy for us to see as mothers and all, we could say the same thing about our kids, like, why do our kids have value? Just because they are, just because they’re beings, they’re living, breathing humans but to give ourselves that same sense of value and worth seems so difficult. Jen: Yeah I think what happens is people, they just, they overthink this and it gets people in a tizzy on both ends whether it’s from believing you can’t love yourself until you look a certain way or believing that if you’re making changes you don’t love yourself, you know, there’s just way too much overthinking going on. Annie: So what with the approach that we’ve already kind of touched on that we take in our program is we encourage our members to adopt a self-love approach to change and if weight loss is the way in which you want to change your body, it can be a by-product of your habits and a way that you care for yourself. Jen: Yeah and it’s always a byproduct of your habits, always, right? So when you are, like, we’ve covered this in previous podcasts, but you can’t just say, snap your fingers and lose 10 pounds. Annie didn’t snap her fingers and grow muscles. All changes are a byproduct of our habits and so once you start looking at changes as a byproduct of your habits then you can look at the habits required and or the skills you need to develop in order to see that change and you can decide if that is self love and self care for you, right? Annie: And you posed a really great question, a thread came up in Balance365 last week and the question you posed in response to her is “Is this goal about health and love and self-care or is this about achievement and ideal?” Jen: Right. Annie: And that can maybe help you distinguish the why behind this. Is this coming from a place of love or is this coming from some other place that really isn’t worth perpetuating. Jen: Right, like I could be leaner than I am right now, I am quite comfortable in my body with my body weight but I have been 20 to 25 pounds leaner than I am now. I can go back to that life but there is a point where the extreme that I would have to take goes from a place of self-love and self care into self harm, right, so I, you know, I eat really balanced meals, I pay attention to my nutrition, eat when I’m hungry, stop when I’m satisfied, exercise regularly, take care of my mental health. If I wanted to lose 20 pounds at this point I would have to pay very, very close attention to my nutrition and to me that takes me into a place of self harm and it doesn’t feel well and that’s sort of my guiding compass as far as is this coming from a place of self care or is this coming from a place of self harm? Lauren: I really like that, like, how does it feel? Jen: How does this feel for you? Yeah. Annie: Yes And unfortunately there are people in our industry that would encourage you to power through that feeling. Jen: They do all the time in the fitness industry. All the freaking time. Annie: They would say “This is a prerequisite. This is a requirement that you regulate this negative self talk or pushing yourself past this comfort zone is something that’s required to achieve these goals that are ultimately of high value, right?” Jen: They describe it as a plateau, right, that you have to push through, which sometimes it, like, I mean, that’s the thing about, you’ve really got to know yourself, right, because sometimes there’s value in pushing through, right, like sometimes you don’t, every time it gets hard you don’t want to give up and walk away. Sometimes there’s hard things that you have to work through but the self harm piece is like “Is this sustainable for you? Are you willing? Are you going to do this forever?” And there’s been different times in my life, like for example, right now I get up at 5:30 in the morning to work out and start my workout at 6 and yeah, there are some days that I don’t want to do that but I push through and I’m always happy afterwards. Right now that behavior comes from a place of self care. When I had a newborn, if I would have insisted on that behavior with a newborn baby when I wasn’t sleeping all night and I was pushing myself to get up at 5:30 to work out at 6, that becomes self harm, right, because it means I am going with less and less and less sleep. I’m not even getting enough sleep to recover from my workouts. So those are really self assessment questions that you need to ask yourself and that nobody can answer except for you. Annie: And that’s exactly why we don’t prescribe weight loss or have weight loss goals or goals in general for our community members because no one knows your body better than you do, not even us who work with thousands of women on a daily basis, like, we don’t know you as well as you do and so we really just want to encourage you to pull that reflection inward and say like, “What is this about? Like, can I love my body and want to change it at the same time?” and maybe for you the answer is like “No, I can’t right now. First I have to work on loving myself, you know. Jen: So we recently had a community member share that she thought she had fat loss goals and she was ready to dig in on those fat loss goals but after some self assessment she’s realized that that actually is not a healthy space for her to be in right now and she loves the idea of just focusing on habits and letting her body be what it’s going to be and that is the ultimate form of acceptance for her and that’s where she’s at right now and we are like “A round of applause, girlfriend” because really, all we want for people is to own their life Annie: Yeah, and, you know, just some of these concepts we talk about are kind of heavy and they’re philosophical but, you know, so often what we hear, what this change looks like, this shift which can be so subtle and so small and sometimes you don’t even realize that it’s happening to people around you is that all of a sudden, you know, we’re exercising because, as Jen said, “It leaves me feeling better. I feel more confident. I have more energy throughout the day” versus “I’m getting up at 530 to punish myself because I want to change my body because I hate my body so much and I just can’t stand another day living in my own skin.” I mean, the behavior looks the same on the outside but on the inside, Jen knows this is coming from a place of self-love and self care. Jen: Yeah we often say and I think we’ve said in the podcast before, “it’s not about the what the people are doing it’s about the why and how they go about it.” That’s where the dysfunction and disorder, that’s where it can be found. Annie: Yeah, and I mean, the same can be true for how you feed your body, how you speak to your body and you know, are you feeding yourself balanced meals because your body deserves to be nourished and again, you feel better when you have balanced meals or are you starving or removing whole food groups or eating foods you don’t like because, again, you loathe your body and you want to change it and if you change your body, you change your life and if you change your life then you have less problems.” Jen: Right, the thing I love and I’ll let Lauren elaborate on this but somebody posted in our group in the last, I don’t know, year sometime, she asked about protein bars and she said “But aren’t protein bars diety?” and then you replied, Lauren, do you want to share that? Lauren:  Yes, I don’t remember exactly what I replied but I’ll say what I think about it now. So there’s no, like, diet food or not diet food, right? Like you walk into a restaurant and like two women are eating the exact same thing, they’re both eating a salad and one person restricted themselves and they’re punishing themselves for what they ate yesterday or they’re punishing themselves because they hate their body and the other person is eating to nourish their body and it makes them feel good so that’s why they’re eating their salad, right, like just like Jen said, it’s not always about the what, it’s about the why. Jen: Does it come from a place of deprivation or does it come from a place of abundance and self care? Annie: Exactly and again, they can look the same on the outside. Jen: Exactly. Annie:  On the surface. You might not be able to tell, you might not be able to distinguish and that’s why it’s so important that you get really in tune with yourself and what you’re doing and why you’re doing it and that can help you discern, is this self-love or is this self-hate are these behaviors rooted in? And you know, I just, we say this all the time and it can’t be said enough, we have a saying that “We take great care of things we love and your body is no exception” and I think about all the things that I take care of in my life, between relationships with girlfriends, my children, even my house plants, for heaven’s sakes and I want them to feel comfortable and safe and confident and thrive and grow and expand and live this vibrant life, I’m not degrading them, I’m not starving them, I’m not depriving them. I’m actually treating them really sweetly and kindly and with love and encouragement and sometimes that looks like- Jen: Sometimes there’s tough love built into that. Annie: Yes, like, “Jen, do you want to stay in bed because your bed is warm and cozy and it’s cold outside and it’s dark but I know ultimately this is the goal I committed to and I’m going to feel good” Like, it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. Jen: Absolutely. Actually, my mantra, you know, these days I’ve been struggling a bit. And my mantra is “Mother. I’m mothering myself right now.” Like I have just needed, I have needed some tough love lately and it’s not that I’m, like, being a drill sergeant to myself it’s that “Would my mother let would let me stay up and watch Netflix to 1:30 AM when I have to be up at 6 you know 5 nights in a row?” Like, no, and so that’s sometimes where the tough love has to come in but a mother, well, a mother knows. A mother knows when to push and a mother knows when to pull back, right, we do it for our kids every single day but yet for ourselves it’s like we want to put ourselves into like one box and just like stay there either because we see pendulum swing with self-compassion to, right, we see all the time women are like “Oh I’ve watched Netflix for 3 days but self care, right? and it’s like, “I don’t know. I’m not you so I don’t know if that was self care for you or not but I know for a lot of people you have moved from self care to like numbing and avoiding.” And like you know, like, my mother, if I was sick I might watch T.V. for 3 days but if I wasn’t sick my mother, you know, there’s not a lot of mothers out there who would be letting their kids just sit and watch T.V. for 3 days. Annie: After a day she would be like, “OK get off the couch.” Jen: Get outside, right? My parents used to do that all the time, like, “Get your butts outside now,” right, and so you bring it back to that and go like mother yourself. Have you gotten some fresh air today? Have you gotten some movement in? Are you eating balanced meals? You know, eating, you know, high sugar treats all day long, no that’s not self care day after day after day and that’s certainly not balance. Annie: So, you know, I think, this is just my own personal experience but I’ve heard it echoed in the stories of women we’ve worked with in the past is that they kind of are like, “Yeah, OK, I get that some women love themselves and they’re treating themselves well because they love themselves that much. That’s great for them, however for me I’m used to fueling my workouts and my food and fitness choices from self-hate and I’m worried that if I love myself that I’m just going to become lazy and I’m going to eat all the foods and I’m just going to lose all my motivation and I’m going to get complacent, right?” Jen: That’s how it feels when you’ve been in a place of control for so long, I mean what happens to the teenagers who move out of their family home at 18 that have been living under very rigid controlling rules. They go to college and they go nuts, right? Like we will always rebel against these rules. Annie: Lauren and I are like “Yep.” Jen: Yes, so it’s sort of like, you know, it’s just, it’s human nature, right it’s just human nature and so a lot of people might see their pending swing but eventually you need to like sit up and go and you just need to mother yourself, that’s what you have to do and I find that quite effective in knowing when I need a little tough love and when I need some compassion, right. So if my kids were really emotional, you know, school ends, they’re super emotional, they’re fighting, they’re just not doing well, I can look at them and have some self compassion and go like “These kids are tired, like, we’re going to turn the T.V. on a little early today because they they need some downtime, they need to skip their chores today, they’ve got no energy, you know, or emotional regulation skills like this.” Because you you look at your kids and you just assess, right, you’re always assessing what they need and that changes day to day and I think we can do that for ourselves too. We can do a much better job of it than women traditionally have been doing. We’ve just, we live under so many rules, right, like I just think women actually live under so, not just for ourselves but in our society there are so many rules and a societal construct that women always are living around that I think when we do find ourselves in that space of having free time, we may find ourselves in a rebellious space a lot because we actually have no idea how much unconscious time and energy we spend on, like, subscribing to these rules. Lauren: Preach. Annie: Word. So the anti-climatic answer to our question that I posed at the beginning of this podcast is “Can you love your body and want to change it?” is, I mean, Yes/It really depends and that’s something that you have to answer on an individual level. I personally can sit here and say with great confidence that I have changed my body as a complete act of self-love. Or self-love has resulted in a body change is maybe a better way to put it. But not everyone that changes their body is acting out of self love and vice versa and again our bodies are meant to change they’re fluid. They’re ever changing, they’re always changing, especially as women of childbearing age, I mean, my body looks so different than it did a year ago and I’m 2 plus years postpartum, like, it’s till changing from pregnancy I feel like, I mean, my hair for heaven sakes is still changing. But I think, you know, we’re, as usual, we feel like the truth to that question is somewhere in the middle. We are not on either side of one extreme camp or the other and we really want to help put women in the driver seat to answer that question on their own terms, in a way that serves them and feels good to them and anything we can help women, any way that we can help women come across that answer is good for us. Jen: Yes. Annie: All right, good one. Jen: Lauren will go zip in in the background go ” Preach.” We should get you a t-shirt that says “What she said.” Annie: OK, well, yet another great topic with yet another awkward ending in the bag but this is good. This is a good conversation that I think needed to we needed to address on our podcast because again, we’ve discussed it so many times in our community, which again, if you’re aren’t in there and you want to join it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. The three of us are in there, we’ve got some awesome moderators and a great community system if you want to continue the discussion on loving your body and still changing it or how you can begin making changes from a place of self-love. It will be a great place to learn so I hope to see you inside and ladies we will chat soon, OK. Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye.   The post 50: Can You Love Your Body And Still Want To Change It? appeared first on Balance365.

  Diet culture is often so subtle that it can be hard to even identify. On today’s episode Jen, Lauren and Annie tackle the big topic of diet culture: what it is, what it looks like, how it’s harmful and some practical advice on how we can begin to dismantle this hurtful, oppressive system. While this topic is broad and deep, this conversation is the tip of the iceberg and a thought-starter for future conversations. What you’ll hear in this episode: What is diet culture, what does it look like, what does it sound like? Before and after photos – why are they problematic? The impacts of diet culture on the individual, family, and community Making informed choices as consumers to support or not support diet culture How socio-economic factors impact health Thin privilege and how it impacts lives Health, race, and representation in images of health How kids are impacted by diet culture How different healthy weight is for women individually Diet culture and how it creates weight gain How to turn diet culture around Nourishment as a concept that goes beyond food Curating your environment to fight diet culture Resources: Episode 24: Before And After Photos – Comparison, The Thief Of Joy Getting Older: Hillary Mcbride On Women And Aging Linda Bacon’s book Body Respect Setting Body Talk Boundaries Over The Holidays Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio, we have more than enough research to show that diets don’t work. We know this yet people still continue to diet over and over and over again. Why? Well, it’s likely large in part because dieting is a big part of our culture: diet talk, weight talk, negative body talk. It’s everywhere from office conversations to gabbing with your girlfriends over drinks to the marketing on our food, books, and commercials. Diet culture is often so subtle that it can be hard to even identify. When everyone around you is seemingly celebrating weight loss at all costs and bonding overeating “good” foods and say no to “bad” ones it can be difficult to take a stand against a culture. On today’s episode Jen, Lauren and I tackle the big topic of diet culture: what it is, what it looks like, how it’s harmful and how we can begin to dismantle this hurtful, oppressive system. We know that this is just the tip of the iceberg of a very important topic and discussion and we invite you to continue this discussion on the inside of our private Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms. See you on the inside! Lauren and Jen! We’re back with a big, big topic today, are you ready for this? Jen: Ready. Lauren: Ready. Annie: You’ve got your game faces on, you guys. We’re discussing the term diet culture. What is diet culture? Which, the reason why we want to address this is because diet culture is a term and a phrase that we use frequently in our community and in our content and we really haven’t stopped to kind of unpack what this is, right? And we’re just going to dive right into it because I think we could spend a lot of time talking about this and we want to make sure that we do it justice and who knows, we might have to come revisit this. We’ll see how far we can get on our outline, right, but we know that diets don’t work and this is not a new topic. If you’re new to our podcast that might be a new concept to you but if you have been around our community and our podcast for a while, you know that diets don’t work and the research is there to support it and in fact, the research shows that most people are able to lose weight in the year but the vast majority gain it back with the majority of people gaining back more than they lost within 5 years and to echo the research that’s already out there that supports diets don’t work, we’ve surveyed our community and an overwhelmingly amount of our community have tried dieting and they’ve “failed” yet many women keep dieting, right? We see this all the time, like, people try diets, they don’t have success but they keep dieting and why is that? We would offer that it’s, unfortunately, part of our culture, right? Jen: It’s deeply ingrained in our culture to diet. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Yes. And so what we want to discuss today is what is diet culture, what it looks like, what it feels like, what are the consequences of living in a culture obsessed with dieting and spoiler alert: it’s everywhere. Jen: And yeah, a really good analogy I have is we also live, well I do, personally, where I live, I live in a car culture, a commuting culture, so public transport is not good where I live. You essentially have to have a car to participate in our society and imagine not having a car, how difficult that would make things for you and people would be surprised, like, “You don’t have a car? How do you get around?” So if you compare that to living in a diet culture, it’s the same thing. It’s actually very difficult to not to diet in our culture and it can make your life actually feel harder, initially than participating in the culture. Annie: Because you feel like you’re going against the grain. Jen: You are going against the grain and our society isn’t set up to support people who are not making, who are choosing to not do that. Annie: And because diet culture is so subtle, it can be really hard to identify what it is and what it isn’t and you might not be familiar with the term yet, diet culture, if you’re new to our community but I promise you, you have experienced it and I just want to share just, I pulled these out of a hat off the top of my head when I was reviewing for this podcast some of the ways in which you might have experienced a culture that I think are pretty common. Phrases like “I’m going to be bad and order fries” or how we compliment pregnant women for being “all belly” or tell them how great they are looking after giving birth. Jen: Yes. Or  “You don’t even look pregnant” etc. Annie: Yes.  People who lose weight are consistently applauded for and praised without question or you might hear phrases like “I’m on a new diet”, “How is your diet going? Have you tried this diet? I lost weight with this diet.” Jen: Yeah or “I’m off my diet.” Annie: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m sure many of you listening are probably nodding in your head in agreement that you’ve heard those types of conversations, you’ve seen those behaviors and they’re so common in our daily lives and these are the examples of what diet culture is, could be or what it sounds like are endless but- Jen: Yeah, before and after photos are a really problematic thing in our society and some of our listeners might be in the fitness industry and they might use before and after photos and I just want to say that it’s not, I know the intent isn’t there, I mean you might be coming from a really good place trying to showcase your client’s results and the intent might not be there but you certainly are profiting off of the fear that’s already there and that’s just something I would like our colleagues to sit with. Annie: Which is difficult because that’s something we as a company have struggled with which we have a whole podcast on before and afters and what the consequences of using them can be. We have gone back and forth, should we use them, should we not use them. Because they are effective, I mean, you see them, not even in a professional setting, you know, a girlfriend post that she lost 20 pounds or whatever in a post before and after on just her personal Facebook page and people break their necks looking at it, right? Jen: Right. Lauren: Right. Annie: And, you know, again, that’s diet culture, where we applaud these people for weight loss or think if they’re a better person or more disciplined or of higher moral virtue because they lost weight and we don’t even stop to question “Are they actually healthier? Do they do they feel better? How did they go about achieving that?” like, “Could this person just be sick?” I mean, like, there are so many options other than “this was intentional and they automatically feel better” but let’s just define it, right, this is, the definitions vary from source to source but in general diet culture is a society that focuses on and values weight shape and size over health and wellbeing. It worships thinness and equates it to health and moral virtue. It promotes weight loss as a means of attaining a higher status. It demonizes certain ways of eating while elevating others and it oppresses people who don’t match up with the supposed picture of health which disproportionately harms trans, bigger bodies, people with disabilities, people of color and it can be damaging to both mental and physical health. Lauren: Right. Jen: Right because they just, they aren’t represented in a diet culture. Annie: Yeah, and- Lauren: This is not something we’re even conscious or aware of, right? The fact that it’s so embedded in our culture, is it’s just what we’ve grown up with, it’s what we’re taught to do and you know, we’re not consciously aware of these thoughts or behaviors sometimes, it’s just there. Jen: My social media feed used to be filled with before and after photos because those are the types of pages I followed. Just diet pages, weight loss pages, fitness professionals that were constantly posting before and afters of themselves and their clients and so essentially, anytime I was on social media, which for a lot of women is quite a bit, I was looking at before and after photos and that absolutely affects the way you think and see the world. Lauren:  And how you feel about yourself. Jen: Yeah. Annie: And it’s in the marketing of our foods, too. I had a FaceTime conversation with Jen about this topic last week and I got off the phone after talking about diet culture, opened up my fridge and here my yogurt says “light and fit”, you know, to me that’s ingrained diet culture or you know, we’re calling foods “guilt free” or there’s guilt, you know, I think- Jen: It is, it is honestly everywhere and back to the car analogy, it’s like, it’s like roads are everywhere, if you came across a spot in a city that had no roads to drive down, you would go, “What on earth is going on here?” You just take for granted that roads are going to be everywhere and in our society diet culture is everywhere, everywhere. Annie: And again, it also, you know, we’ll talk about this how it oppresses certain populations in a little bit as well but we’re really just seeing one type of body, which we were talking about this before we even started recording, it’s thin white women, you know, in the diet industry. Jen: Of a certain age. Annie:  Of a certain age, yes and that can be really harmful and if you don’t stop to question these things, you’ll probably just go with the flow, you know, you’ll just kind of keep swimming with everyone else. Jen: I used to model, which I’ve shared in the podcast before, and I was told at 19 that I was getting old for modeling and that if I hadn’t made it internationally by the time I was 21 that I did not have a future in modeling so that is an indicator of the types of models that we’re seeing. They are very, very young. Annie: Babies. Jen: Yeah. Like most girls go big when they’re like 14 and I was told at 14 by a model agent that I had the perfect body, like, I was perfect at that point to be a model, to have a career as a model in women’s fashion magazines when I was 14 years old. Annie: At 14. Yeah, yeah, you’re selling to adult women as a 14-year old that’s a crazy concept to wrap your head around. Jen: Yes. Annie: But, you know, in addition to talking about what it is and what it looks like and what it feels like, I really want to spend a fair amount of time to on why it matters because, you know, before I was familiar with the concept of diet culture, I thought it was just kind of like on a really individual level, you know, like, I thought like, “Oh, this is just what how this person is choosing to spend their time” and I wasn’t really aware of how it impacted our community or our society and Jen, you know, you said on a previous podcast, like, we talk about how we want society to change or how we want our culture to change, well, that starts with us. Jen: Yeah, we are society, we’re part of it. Annie: We’re part of it. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Yes, so let’s talk about why it’s harmful because it’s harmful to individuals, it’s harmful to families and it’s harmful to communities and the first one, which we kind of touched on is it oppresses a large majority of the population on an individual level, you know, just on ourselves, it encourages people to believe that they are less than until they achieve some level of weight loss or fitness goals, right. It makes you engage in self-doubt, you doubt yourself, you feel like you can’t trust your own instincts. It lures you into thinking that you failed because you couldn’t stick to your diet plan and oftentimes people that are engaged in that kind of thinking are thinking things like “I can’t do this because I look like this. I can’t do this because my body is this” and I have personally experienced that. I remember my husband wanting me to go rock climbing and I couldn’t, like, I was too worried about could I, am I going to fit into the harness? Is the harness going to hold me? Is this something that my body is allowed to do, like, and it turns out I could have, I just was too wrapped up in thinking- Jen: You were too big to do this. Annie:  Yeah, the self-doubt that that was my limiting factor, right. And then on a community level, it contributes to a culture that makes it acceptable to treat people as less than because of their bodies, right and in fact, when I was researching this there was one study that I came across that it noted that 15 percent of hiring managers, only 15 percent of hiring managers, would hire an overweight woman for a job. So essentially it’s allowing employers to see overweight people as sloppy or lazy and just not hire them. Jen: Yeah and so you don’t see the person or their skills or their education, you see the body. Annie: And we’ve talked about that, or talked around about that, you know, about how what it looks like when you go to McDonald’s and sit and have you know a cheeseburger and French fries versus what it looks like when a larger body goes to McDonald’s. Jen: Yes, thin women can post photos on social media of eating like a whole pizza and be proud of it and people will high 5 them and I think there’s even, I read a blog post a couple years ago, I can’t remember the author now but basically it showed comments under this photo of a like a thin, gorgeous girl eating a huge pizza and there were males saying “Oh,  that’s so sexy” and then next to a photo of a really large woman eating a whole pizza and the comments were “That is so disgusting.” Annie: That’s just heartbreaking and eye-opening. Jen: It’s awful. As far as going, “Hey”, like trying to address the diet culture we live in and your everyday behaviors and the way you talk and think around it, like, that’s really what we’re trying to address here, right, like there are people that are seriously hurt because of some of your unconscious everyday behaviors that contribute to upholding a society that oppresses A lot of people in our culture. Annie: And you know, I have no doubt that there are people with hearts of gold and good intentions that are engaging in diet culture like Jen: Absolutely, I mean, there’s probably still areas of my life if I really dug in, I mean, that’s all part of our work, right, is unraveling that. Annie: Yeah, it’s oftentimes not intentional. It’s just, you know, what you’ve learned, what people of before you have done, what you’ve seen other people do, what you’ve heard other people say, you know, I remember, like, early as a trainer talking about concepts that I, that would make me cringe now in terms of diet culture and it’s like, when you know better you can do better and that’s part of what we want this podcast to do today is just start creating some discussion and awareness about what diet culture is and how it impacts our lives. Jen: Yeah, I even recently have been thinking about something. So I love LuluLemon leggings, they are my favorite. They fit me so well and they’re really good quality, I love them and recently a bigger woman called me on shopping there. She said “You are supporting a company that will not carry my size and has openly had the founder talk about that they don’t cater to women my size” and I felt really uncomfortable and that’s something so I’m just, full disclosure, being open about my own journey but I’m really kind of sitting with that and going like “Am I going to be OK with that that they don’t carry over a certain size and I’m going to keep shopping there or can I keep shopping there but bring it up to management, write letters, like, you know, what can I do?” Like, because I don’t feel good about that and then the other one was Victoria’s Secret which I have vocally and openly called out that company for years and years now of their objectification of women. And they recently went public on record to say that they don’t make larger sizes because that’s not their market and they don’t want to sell to women in that market and I have not supported Victoria’s Secret for years and years but that is just something for us all to think about, right, like would you would you keep supporting a company that said they don’t want to sell to black women? Annie: Right. Jen: Like that’s not their market? Or disabled people? Sorry, our store is not wheelchair accessible because we don’t want, we don’t want people who are in wheelchairs in this store. Annie: Yeah. When you take it out of the terms of bodies and when you put it in that context, it’s a no brainer, right? Jen: Yeah and I mean that is part of living in a diet culture that we all so, we don’t even think about that oppression of larger people, right, so, you know, and as soon as you take it into that context of color or ability then it’s like “Oh, wow, no, that’s awful” but then you bring it back to bodies and you’re like “Is that awful? I don’t know. I have to think about that.” Because it’s just so ingrained that you really have to think about it. So those are some thoughts I’ve been sitting with lately just being honest with our audience that it is a journey and you will continually realize that there are ways that you contribute to supporting diet culture. Annie: Well, I mean, yeah and just again, all the ways that it shows up in your life. I mean my drink of choice used to be a skinny latte from Starbucks or like eating skinnypop popcorn, two things that I really enjoy I hate the name. Lauren:  Yeah. Annie: Why did they have to be named that? And you know, so can we just call it nonfat lattes? Jen: Yes. Annie: Like yes, yes i can. I don’t have to engage in that or I can stop buying that product as you noted or I can call it something else or you know, my light and fit Greek yogurt, sorry, Yoplait. I don’t like the name, I like your yogurt, I don’t like the name. In addition though to, going back to how it’s harmful, oppressing individuals and on a community level, it also hurts, as Jen noted ,people of color, those with disabilities, people live in poverty because they’re just less likely to be able to access the tools that some people believe can “cure” or address some of these health-related issues or size-related issues such as health care, gym memberships, nutrient-dense food and in fact, I went back and reference Linda Bacon’s book Body Respect, which is a great book if you haven’t read it. And she notes that social and societal differences account for the largest part of the population’s health, even more so than behaviors, biology or genes so really, like the culture, the socioeconomic status that you are brought up in, you’re raised in that you’re living in, plays a bigger, way bigger role than what you’re choosing to eat or- Jen: Yeah, I often say, like, if you are going to be talking about the health of our society and losing your mind over obesity rates, you better be bringing socio-economic conditions into that conversation and letting me know what you are doing to bridge that divide in socio-economic situations across your culture because you cannot stand on your platform and talk about how everybody just needs to eat healthier, you know, what I mean? Once you start understanding the big picture you start to understand actually how useless- Lauren:  Like all you need to do is buy all organic produce, lean meats that are grass-fed, get the special bulletproof coffee drink and you’ll be good to go, right? Jen: Right, it’s elitist, it really only helps- Annie: Privileged people. Jen: People in privileged people, right, helps or harms, that’s a whole other question because if you already have those privileges, you know, somebody is just making you anxious about not being privileged enough or perfect enough then, you know, it’s, anyways so yeah, I mean, part of our work, if we really do care about the health and wellbeing of our society is about how to raise children up out of poverty so that we can see them with better outcomes in life, right? Annie: And just, again, going back to the definition of diet culture, you know, that it promotes thinness and equates it to health and moral virtue, like, you know,  I’m not any better or worse than someone that’s going to the gym or that has a gym membership or that eats organic bananas than is, you know, than someone that eats conventional bananas, like, but so often we do, we praise people that have those behaviors, that have access to those services or memberships that’s like, they’re doing something right, right?  They’re just better. Jen: Yeah but people love to hear that, like, people love to hear, people love rags to riches stories and so you, like, even I look back on myself, you know, I am a thin, white woman, like I have so many privileges in our society because just because of those things. I was born Caucasian and thin. But I even look back on, you know, the way I used to pat myself on the back, like, as if I was just this, like, awesome hard worker and it’s not that I didn’t work hard for certain things, you know, for my education, for everything that I have today for, you know, that I do work out and consistent with exercise but you know, there was a time in my life where it was an elitist thing almost, like, I thought I was, you know, just extra special for whatever reason but it turns out I actually was born with a headstart in life that a lot of people didn’t have and for somebody to start a health and wellness company and grow it to what we’ve grown ours to in the last 4 years as a fat woman of color, now that is hard work. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s just certain privileges that the 3 of us have that allowed us to, that people will take advice from us online because we’re all thin. Annie: Yeah it’s that this is a heavy topic. Jen: It’s uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable for us to acknowledge our own privileges, like it really is but it’s so important in order to, if you want to see more equality in our society, like, women, we talk about it all the time, wanting equality with men and that seems to be an easier conversation to flow. But then, you like, let’s talk about all equality, right, and then that means it’s easy to sit back and be a victim of inequality but like what if you are a perpetuator of inequality, like that is uncomfortable. Annie: Yeah. Jen: But that is so important. We expect men to do it, right, we want men to do it. Annie: To be able to objectively look at our behaviors and say, like, “I could be potentially contributing to the problem” It’s like- Jen: Yeah like here are small ways- Annie: It’s hard to face. Jen: Here are small ways. Yeah, exactly. Annie: Absolutely. OK, so backing up, how it’s harmful. It oppresses a large majority of the population, I mean, when we say large, like, that’s pretty much everyone except for thin white people, I mean, which is, like, that leaves a lot of people out, that’s really exclusive. Jen: Yes. So just if, people who are struggling understand this, if you go do a google image search of and just type in like “health and fitness” you will be met with images, 99 percent of the images that come up are, like, thin white people. Annie: Yeah. Jen: I feel like I need to do that real quick. Lauren: I’m doing it right now. Jen: OK just to make sure I’m right. Annie: I just, as you know, as a personal trainer I know that I’ve searched personal trainer images it’s all white men. Jen: Or if you type in healthy women, so I just typed in healthy women on a google image search and I’m scrolling to the scrolling, scrolling, I saw one black woman, one, rest, oh here’s a woman laying in a bed of fruit with a tape measure wrapped around her waist. So yeah, it’s just thin white women, that’s all it is. Annie: Yeah and that’s not, that’s not true representational, truly representational of health. Jen:  Absolutely not. You feel, then, the idea of diet culture is that you have to be a thin white woman to be healthy. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Right. Annie: And that so far from the truth that it’s ridiculous. OK. Moving on. Another reason it’s harmful, one of the many reasons diet culture is harmful is that our kids are catching on quickly to this culture, the the new normal of these behaviors and conversations. We’ve shared these statistics so many times. I’m going to share them again because, like, it needs to be heard again and again and again. Over 80 percent of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat. 80 percent of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat. 53 percent of 13 year old American girls are unhappy with their bodies. The number grows to 78 percent by the time they reach 17, by middle school 40 to 70 percent of girls are dissatisfied with 2 or more of their body parts and I mean, that’s just 3 of the many alarming statistics. And inside of Balance365, Jennifer, you share an observation from author Jan Jacobs Brownsburg, do your remember this, when you wrote about this? How she had been studying girls diaries. Jen: Yeah, yeah it’s in the 1st chapter of Balance365. Annie: And you read her book and you noted that she was writing about how girls, she was studying girls diaries and how these girls were writing about a desire to better themselves and she notes that the difference was pre-war, they were talking about being the self development was focused on helping others and putting more effort into school or reading and by the 1990s bodies had become a preoccupation, that they were writing about. Jen: And appearance and makeup and fashion and yes so this is also such a hard conversation because what if you really like fashion, you know? Where Hilary McBride pointed out in our of the last podcast we did with her. You know, are our interests and beliefs and you know, all of that, is that who we are or is that shaped by our culture? And so- Lauren: It’s messy. Jen: It’s very messy, right and but yes, so basically that book looked at what girls valued and how they wanted to better themselves 100 years ago versus today and that there are there’s just been a dramatic shift in values over the last 100 years where I think most women would say “Gosh, like, you know, I wish, I wish my daughter was more focused on school than boys and makeup and all of that but that’s the culture we live in” Like, you can say one thing as a parent, “Hey, this is where you should invest your time and energy as a girl to be successful in life, to be happy, to be fulfilled” but when you have a whole culture and society telling them differently, they’ll stop listening to you. My Mom, my mother was so amazing at that, my mom was so ahead of the game in the nineties raising me in the 2000s. But, you know, I was surrounded and I was in a culture that clearly valued bodies. I remember when Britney Spears’ first single dropped in she had the, I remember just crowding around the CD in the CD insert, like the first friend who went and got the CD, they would pull the insert out and we would all just- Annie: Read the lyrics and look at the photos. Jen: Yeah we were just surrounded, like, looking at these photos of Britney Spears and she was wearing a little skirt and it was just, like, everything right and yeah, and we even see it in Healthy Habits Happy Moms, our own Facebook group, where we want to so badly want to see this shift, we see, once in a while women might come in and post a before and after photo, they may be new to our group or whatever, they don’t understand the culture in there yet and even when that happens it will get so much attention. Well, I noticed the other day that a woman posted in the last year she has added in a couple habits and her triglyceride levels are back down into a normal healthy range and it did not barely get any engagement and I look at that stuff and I think, even in our group, it’s so depressing because it’s like that is what health is, like, those are the things we should be celebrating. We don’t know what that picture means. We don’t know if her blood pressure is through the roof. We, it’s just, yes so, it’s just, it’s so depressing to me. I’m like Society doesn’t care if people are healthy, they care that they’re thin. Lauren: Right, like stop framing it as health and wellness, right? It’s thinness that you are  celebrating but back to the the diaries of the girls thing too, we talk about all the time how women say in our in our Balance365 group, like, I have all this time and mental space that has opened up since I stopped focusing on my body and dieting and like, I kind of see that in this this study from this author, like, where would we be if we weren’t so focused on ourselves and our bodies, like, where would we be if we were all still trying to better ourselves in other ways? Jen: Right, would fighting for equality with men still be a conversation? Like imagine if women took all the time and energy they put into their bodies and their appearance and put that on equality- Lauren: Or any issue. Jen: Any issue, getting politically active or you know, yeah. Annie: Which is a great segue into the 3rd way I wrote down why it’s harmful is it keeps us from living our lives and as we’ve talked about, our conversations are consumed with diet talk, weight talk, body shaming. On a really small scale, we hesitate to eat kids cake at birthday parties or we hesitate at going out to eat with a girlfriend because we are fearing putting on weight or deviating from our meal plan but I know the 3 of us have talked about that we could not have started this business if we were still eating, breathing, living diet culture. Like we wouldn’t have the capacity for it. Jen: I did a talk for a women’s studies class last year via video through, I was just asked to do it remotely basically so I filmed it in my home and it was for the University of the Saskatchewan, a women’s studies course and I did my 1st year of university at the University of Saskatchewan and at that time I wanted to be a doctor. When I started university I wanted to be a doctor and I had to basically drop out by my 2nd semester. I had to move down to part time studies because I was struggling with an eating disorder by then. It just, it was my whole life, it became my whole life. I was starving, my B.M.I. was 17, I was running on a treadmill for like one to two hours a day every morning, not eating, it just it consumed me and that might be a more extreme result of living in a diet culture is actually developing an eating disorder but there was a study done in the States, I think the University of Southern California and they surveyed 10000 women and 65 percent of women report having disordered eating behaviors. That’s huge. Lauren: I had the same experience and I think it’s, I think maybe getting a diagnosable eating disorder is rare but struggling with disordered eating and having it take up your life is not rare. Jen: No it’s very common. Lauren: Yeah I remember coming home, in my senior year it it took up my entire life. I wouldn’t go out because I had to come home and I had to do my workout and I had to eat my broccoli, like I could go out and eat. I had to come home and yeah, just the same way that you’re describing. It took over my entire life. Annie: I am just scrolling on Instagram, I swear it was Erin Brown wrote, had a quote or shared a quote at one point about how all the possibilities and opportunities that have been missed because women were worrying if their thighs were too big. Jen: Yeah. Lauren: Yeah Annie:  And that hit home for me. I mean, everything from rock climbing to saying no to opportunities to speak or present or share or work with a client or you know and I think about some, just in the health and wellness world, some of the women in our community that have even expressed, like, I have a really an interest in helping other people, becoming a personal trainer, becoming a nutritionist, getting the certification but will people want to take advice from me because I look like this? Which is anything outside of the norm and that’s really sad, that’s unfortunate, really unfortunate so I want to do our part to break that, right? Jen: Yeah and the messy part of this conversation is trying, talking about weight loss in the context of it not being about diet culture. So that is a really hard conversation to have because we are all about body autonomy and letting women decide what’s right for them and for some women, fat loss is part of their wellness vision. And so, you know, but in within Balance365 constructs you would understand that it’s behavior change that leads to sustainable fat loss etc, etc, etc, we have many podcasts about this. And so that is just really and that’s why chapter one of Balance365 is diet deprogramming because you really have to untangle what it is, what is driving these thoughts, right? That is something really tricky to untangle so where we talk, you know, Annie has lost. Annie used to be a size 22 and now she’s a size 12, is that right, Annie? Annie: Ish. Yeah. Depending on the brand. Jen: Yes and so for, Annie getting healthy, ditching diet mindset, ditching disordered eating, cultivating healthy habits that she can stick to resulted in losing 10 dress sizes which is amazing and I will celebrate that with Annie. I do not think of Annie as a better person than when she was a size 22. I think she was just as worthy. Annie may not have felt that but, and that is the whole problem in our society that we actually believe we are more worthy when we’re smaller. However, on the flip side, me doing all those same things, ditching dieting, ditching disordered eating, ditching and actually cultivating healthy habits that work for me in my life have resulted in me being about 20 to 25 pounds heavier than my leanest weight. And so that is a really important thing for women to understand when we talk about Balance365 and we address weight, we are there to help women become a healthy weight and that is going to look different for everybody. I am not interested in any way in supporting a woman in figuring out how to live life at a weight that is not healthy or sustainable for her. I am not interested in giving her a bunch of diet tricks that make sure, you know, that allow her to be super lean certain times of the year, that’s just not where our focus is and so Balance365 really, you know, the conversation is more about, is not about what losing weight, it’s like what is a healthy weight for you and the thing is in Balance365 so many women have dieted for so many years they don’t even know what that is. Like they haven’t been able to maintain their weight for 3 months, let alone figuring out what maintaining their weight for years and years even looks like for them and I know I didn’t know. I was just constantly going, you know, because I was constant dieting, disordered eating, rebounding. I was basically slingshotting to below what a healthy weight is for me and then right back to above and below and above and I was just slingshotting back and forth where once I found my, you know, what’s healthy for me was basically smack dab in the middle of that and that is what I have been able, that I maintain my weight for the last 4 years through, you know, even some very stressful seasons of life, like because this is actually what’s healthy for me, but that can be a tough pill to swallow for women because for some women that weight is actually heavier than what they are now and that’s terrifying for some women. Lauren: And I think it’s hard for us to communicate that in a diet culture, right, like it’s hard for us to communicate we’re going to help you get the size of body that’s right for you. It’s not always weight loss, sometimes it’s weight gain, sometimes it’s, you know, you’re pretty much the same weight but you have more freedom, you know, to eat the way you want. Annie: Because in diet culture weight loss is equal to a higher status. Jen: Yes, always. Yes. So in a diet culture weight loss is always the goal, right. Annie: Right. Jen: Yes but we do, you know, we’ve got women who have lost significant amounts of fat inside our program but for them, being in those larger bodies was a prison for them because that was not the right weight for them, it was well above what was healthy and sustainable for them and a person gets to that space because of diet culture, because of the constant yoyoing of diets and every time they diet they lose 10 pounds and they put on 35. They go on another diet, they lose 10 and they put on another 35 and at some point those women, fat loss becomes it isn’t about diet culture anymore, isn’t about worthiness, it’s about reclaiming the body that they were always meant to have had they never gone on a diet at all. Lauren: Right and going back to diet culture, our culture is to blame people with larger bodies, right, that it’s their fault that they are in a larger body when it’s diet culture that put them there. Annie: Exactly. Lauren: Many, many times, right? It’s because of the dieting that they’re in a body that’s larger for them and obviously, that’s not universally true but in a lot of cases. Jen: Yes. Annie: Yeah, I feel like we could spend hours talking about how this harmful on so many levels. But I also want to leave some time and some space to talk about how we can kind of start to change it and the first one, I feel like this is our answer to everything on changing everything is just creating awareness, like, you know, like, we’ve talked about this in so many pockets on various topics but just opening your eyes and paying attention to what is diet culture, where you see it, where you experience it and where you hear it and just like start listening, start paying attention. Because as Jen said earlier, once you start seeing it, you’ll realize it’s everywhere. The second thing is break up with dieting. And I want to be clear that you don’t have to be on a diet to participate in diet culture, like that’s key. Like this isn’t just something that people who are dieting are participating in. But also that giving up on diet culture doesn’t mean that you’re giving up on your health. Like there are other options. And one of the ways you can start breaking up with dieting is to question the rules that you’ve been taught, the “rules”, right? The foods that you’ve labeled as good and as bad, your relationship with exercise, like what does that look like, are we exercising to punish ourselves, because we hate ourselves, because we think when we’re thin our life is going to be perfect and we’re going to have the perfect body and people who weigh less have less problems. And this can take years, like this is, I mean, as Jen mentioned earlier when she’s talking about some of how her decisions she still is kind of wrangling with, like, we’ve been in this and we’ve been doing this sort of work for almost 4 years and we’re still, or if not longer but specifically with our company for for almost 4 years and we’re still, like, kind of wading through the mud, like it’s cloudy and it’s messy and it’s muddy and it’s like, is this health? Is this diet culture? Is this supporting where I want to go or is this, like, disguised, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak? And then also vote with your dollars and your energy. Just a simple refusal to feed the diet industry, buying products that support it, whether it’s food, systems, magazines etc. You know your yogurts, your places you’re shopping, where you’re buying your clothes. Jen: And this stuff works. It can feel hopeless but, like, we are seeing a shift, like we are seeing a shift and people are getting really loud about it and companies are paying attention. Because we are seeing, we have never had so much, we don’t have a lot of diversity but we have never seen so much diversity in the media as we do today and that is from the work of all of us individually just throwing those pebbles into a pond which eventually make a wave. Annie: One of the places I really like to shop is Aerie, even, I don’t know if there’s an age limit on Aerie. Lauren: I really like Aerie too. Annie: I really like it and every time I go in there there are, you know, they’ve openly declared that they have stopped photoshopping their models, there’s often disabilities, women with disabilities in their marketing. There is, you know, not maybe as large of a variety of body types and skin colors as I would like to see but it’s more so than it was, you know, 3, 4, 5 years ago and just to circle back to LuLuLemon, obviously anyone that follows me knows that I love my Lululemon and I’m an ambassador for them and I would say the same thing for them too, following them on social media, they are carrying additional size ranges, like, they’re, I think they’re moving, what I see from them is- Jen: They’re moving Annie: They’re moving in that direction. Jen: And the thing is so, it’s understanding too, I remember, Annie, we had this talk right so the political party that I have traditionally voted for in Canada frustrates me to no end and so much so that actually our last federal election I did not vote for them and that’s sometimes is a stand that you have to take as a person but there’s another choice is to get involved in that industry or those companies or that political party and try to make change from within and so as far as Lululemon I don’t know if I’m going to stop shopping there but I am thankful for the awareness that my friend brought to me to say, “You know you’re supporting a store that doesn’t even want women my size in there” and that just stopped me in my tracks and what I am definitely going to be doing is going in and saying “This is how you make people feel, people I love and what do you have to say about that?” and that will be escalated. I recently took a stand at my local pool, so this is just another small example but I shared this on social media, I haven’t shared it on our podcast yet but there’s a swim club at my local swimming pool and I witnessed this male coach probably in his late teens, early twenties talking to a group of probably 11, 12, 13 year old kids making fun of people who are over 200 pounds and just the way he was, it was awful and I was sitting in the hot tub while he was doing this with the team and I’m sitting with my kids and after they left I really had a very, I addressed it with my children, like “That was not OK,” etc  but then I’m not going to stop going to the pool, like that is a place that we enjoy and frequent. What I did do was I went to management and told them that this had happened and they were so thankful and now they will work, because the swim club is an external club that comes in, so now they will work with the club to make sure the club understands that this is a body-inclusive environment and that is not OK. So there are ways of, you know, there are certain brands you might love, you know, etcetera but until they are like that Victoria Secret, I mean Victoria’s Secret stepped up and said: “No, we are not changing.” They basically said, “We do not want big women in our stores.” I will not shop there anymore, that is my choice but I haven’t shopped there for years. If you have followed me long enough on social media you’ll know why. Annie: You’ve had some runins with Victoria Secret. Jen: They know me but so that’s just a choice you can make. You don’t have to walk away, it doesn’t have to be this break up, it can be like “Hey, I support you and I love you guys, I love your brand but here’s what I need from you to keep supporting you.” Annie: Which is actually a conversation that I have had many times with my local Lululemon store and they’re all about it. They are they are game to do whatever they can to help support that as well, I mean, they acknowledge that like “Yeah, we would love to be able to dress all women and like how can we make our voices heard and what actions can we take and how can we be more inclusive and more welcoming to men and women of all varieties even while in this very moment we only serve pant sizes up to a 12 or a 14? What else can we do, how can, you know, how can we start to create change?” and you know, these are the tough and sometimes uncomfortable conversations we need to have. Lauren: Well and I think too it’s sometimes even more impactful than boycotting, right, to have Annie in they’re saying, like, “Look, this is how what you’re doing impacts me, impacts these people, right? Annie: Right. Yeah and in addition to refusing to feed the diet industry, kind of along the same lines as to build your life online and in real life with people, books, music that support how you want to feel and hopefully that’s not a part of the diet culture and my friend Meghan talks about nourishing her body and when she first told me that nourishment was one of her core values, I kind of rolled my eyes because I thought she was going to give me this like elitist version of how she eats paleo. Jen: Green smoothies. Annie: Yes and what she was talking about, how she defines nourishment is what she puts in her ears, what she puts in her body, how  she moves her body, what she reads, what she consumes on social media, like those are all the ways in which she nourishes her body and I love that definition and you know, just like Jen said earlier, you know, her feed used to be filled with before and afters and I’m guessing you’ve unfollowed. Jen: No, I don’t see any of that anymore. It’s jarring to me when I see before and after photos now, I’m like “Oh, where did that come from?” Annie: Yeah and it’s like, it’s OK, sometimes, you know, unfortunately like the saying “fences make good neighbors”, you know some of your friends might be really heavily engaged in diet culture still and you might have to unfollow or set some boundaries. Jen: Yeah, I say “It’s not personal, It’s about me, not you” right, like, “You go ahead and post your before and after photos, it doesn’t serve me and if I saw the odd one now I’d be fine but I I recognize it’s a slippery slope, right, if you have, you get on Facebook for 15 minutes and you have 16 before and after photos come through your feed, like eventually, eventually, that becomes our reality, like, it just does so yeah, curating your environment is so important. Annie: Yeah what else do you want to add before we pop off? I mean, I know this is such a heavy topic and there’s so many aspects and components to diet culture but I just really wanted to kind of throw something out there sooner rather than later for our community who might be new and might be struggling with the concept of diet culture and because even it’s so subtle sometimes I miss it, you know, sometimes I don’t even realize that what I just participated in was diet culture, what I just bought was supporting diet culture. Jen:  I would say it’s OK to like get to the awareness stage and start noticing and making small changes in your life, one thing that I feel very passionate about is not overwhelming women and feeling like they have to be the only crusader for this cause, like, we really have only so much time and energy and number one needs to be taking care of you because you will never be able to take care of others until you can take care of you and us three going from the awakening to the taking care of us to making sure our cups are filled to starting this company to becoming crusaders that was a years in the making process, right, like, I didn’t realize one day diets don’t work and I have been part of this machine that exploits women’s vulnerabilities for my whole life to the next day starting a podcast and talking about all these issues, like, I mean, we’re talking years so don’t feel like you have to do all the things in one day but you’ve got to make sure you’re taken care of  first. Lauren: Yup. Annie:  The awakening, that sounds- Lauren: I like that too. Annie:  I was like “Whoa, yes! Sign me up for that” Jen: Stay woke, friends. Annie: Stay woke to diet culture. That should be our new hashtag. Lauren: Hashtag. Annie: Hashtag stay woke to diet culture. Lauren: Tag us if you use it. Annie: All right this was and can be a really heavy topic but, and it is serious, like this is detrimental to our individual and cultural health and especially our children who are just unknowingly, you know, being exposed to it. We had a really great podcast on boundaries where we talked where Jen made the analogy that compared it to secondhand smoke and diet culture is the same way, you know, like that’s, you know- Jen: Just blowing smoke in your kids’ faces all day long. Annie: Yeah and we don’t doubt the intentions or love that a parent would have for their children, so creating awareness to how harmful this can be is, you know, the first step to really making some steps in the right direction but if you want to continue the discussion, if you want to discuss what is diet culture, what it isn’t, is what you’re experiencing or what you’re participating in part of the problem or part of the solution please join us inside our private Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy moms 40000 women that would be happy to continue this discussion inside there and the 3 of us are in there too participating as well so if you have more questions or if you’re still confused or if there is something that you want to talk about that we didn’t talk about in this hour, let us know we’re here, like this is just, I have a feeling this is just going to be an ongoing topic. Jen: Yeah this was the tip of the iceberg. Annie: Yes, the tip of the iceberg, exactly All right, well thank you ladies, it was a good chat. Jen: Yes. Annie: Alrighty, bye bye. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Bye.     The post 49: Diet Culture Explained appeared first on Balance365.

When the New Year rolls around, people start making resolutions to change their lives. More often than not these ventures end in failure, but it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s not a lack of willpower, motivation or hard work. It’s just the way we make resolutions isn’t always consistent with the science of behavior change. Jen, Annie and Lauren explore the three ways you can make better resolutions this year, or even decide whether you need to make resolutions at all. Resolve to join us and learn more! What you’ll hear in this episode: The best time of year to buy used exercise equipment New Year’s resolutions and FOMO The Power of Suggestion, product placement and targeted ads Jumping on the bandwagon and following the leader The perfect storm of post-holiday shame Shame-based marketing as motivation for change Ending the binge-restrict cycle Learning to let the pendulum settle Zooming out to give context to holiday eating What happens when you try to change too many things at once Outcome-based goals vs habit-based goals How to turn an outcome-based goal into a habit-based goal Resources: Five Stages Of Behavior Change Episode 15: Habits 101 – Hack Your Habits, Change Your Life Episode 22: The Oreo Cookie Approach To Breaking A Bad Habit Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The New Year is upon us and with that comes optimistic feelings of a fresh start, a clean slate and a chance to reach our goals. Love them or hate them, it’s estimated that almost half of Americans make resolutions every year. Step into any gym the 1st week of January and it’s clear that fitness and weight loss goals are topics for most resolution makers. Resolutions are a dime a dozen. It’s sticking to them that can be difficult. Sadly, the reality is that most of us who vow to make changes in 2019 will drop them before January is even over. On this episode of Balance365 Life Radio Jen, Lauren and I dive into common reasons why New Year’s resolutions fall flat and changes you can make to help ensure you stick with your goals long after the New Year’s excitement fades. Enjoy! Lauren and Jen, welcome back! We are discussing New Year’s resolutions already, can you believe it? Lauren: No. Jen: I can’t believe how quickly this year has gone. Annie: No, I feel like I blinked and it was like the end of the year. Jen: I feel like I just saw you guys in San Francisco in February. Annie: I know, it was like a year ago. Jen: I know. Annie: That’s what happens when you see each other every day and talk to each other every day, all day. Besties. So we are talking about New Year’s resolutions because, I mean, it’s obviously a timely subject, we’re coming up on the end of the year and people are thinking about what they want to accomplish in the New Year, right? Which is ironic because we used to have a challenge, we did a challenge a couple years ago called the Screw Your Resolutions challenge and it was our alternative, our Balance 365 alternative to resolutions because so many of us have made resolutions and failed, right? Have you done that? Jen: Most people. Lauren: Yeah. Jen: In fact. Lauren: No, I’ve never done it. Jen: In fact, I keep my eye out for workout equipment around March and April because it all goes back for sale, you can get really good deals on treadmills around that time. Annie: Yes and workout clothes as well too, like they’ll go on, I mean, they’re not on sale right now necessarily but because it’s a popular time to be buying them. Jen: Yeah. Oh I mean second hand- Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: March, April, yeah people, they buy, they get the deals in December-January, they spend $2000.00 on a treadmill and then by March-April it’s back up for sale for like $400.00 So keep your eye out- Annie: Because that treadmill trend- Jen: on buy and sell websites. Yeah because you just hang laundry on it, really. This is what you do. I mean, I’ve been there as well. But I sold my treadmill when we moved last time and I really regret it because now I’m looking at getting another one. And but I’m going to wait I’m going to wait for the New Year’s resolution dropouts to put theirs up for sale- Annie: Yeah, she’s going to take advantage of you guys, listen. Jen: March-April. Annie: She’s going to prey on you. Lauren, what about you? Have you made a resolution and failed to keep it? Lauren: Yes, pretty much every year besides the last five. Yeah, it was always obviously diet exercise related too. But then I would add, like, other things so I would want to do all the things. Annie: Yep. Which we’ll talk about. Please don’t jump ahead of my outline. Lauren: I’m sorry. Annie: We’ve talked about this. Jen: I made a New Year’s resolution-ish. It was a couple years ago it was really big to choose a word, like choose a word for 2016 or 2017 whenever it was and I jumped on board that train and it was a success but we will talk about that later. I won’t skip us ahead. Annie: What was your word? Jen: It was respond. Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: Rather than react because I found myself, I was, like, you know, I could be quite reactive. Annie: No. Jen: So I really worked on that secondary, that response, when your inner B. F. F. comes in and it’s like “Whoa, chill out, girl.” Annie: Yeah, I dig that. Jen: What about this? Annie: Yeah. Jen: So then I would find, you know, I think it was 2016, I worked really hard on it and I’m much better at keeping my reactions under control and responding. Annie: Well, I’ll be interested, maybe a little bit later you can tell us about why that was so successful versus other attempts. But before we get any further, really, today we just want to discuss, I have 3 main reasons that we see resolutions kind of fall flat and I want to be clear that we are not anti resolutions, we’re not anti goals, we’re not anti action plans or whatever you want to tackle, resets, restarts, refreshes in the New Year because I’m totally one of those people that gets super excited about the idea of like a clean slate, like, that’s really, like, I love, like, a fresh start, going to start over. I get to do this. I’m going to do it right. It’s super exciting and super motivating but just the way in which people approach them and their expectations around resolutions are usually why they aren’t successful with them. Jen: Yeah we are pro, we want you to be successful. Annie: Yeah so we’re going to discuss 3 ways you can make your resolutions a little bit more successful because again, it’s not that there’s anything wrong with resolutions inherently, It’s more how we approach them and our expectations surrounding them. So let’s just dive right into it. The 1st one is that remember that you can set goals, create new habits, set intentions any time of the year, right? Like this is not something specific just to New Year’s Day or New Year’s Eve, you can do this February 1st, just the same as you can March 1st or May 15th, like whatever time you want to set new goals, you can make new goals and as I noted, I totally understand the excitement that comes when everyone else around you is doing the thing, right, and it’s contagious and I have severe FOMO, you know, fear of missing out so I feel this pressure like “Oh I want to do that, like, that’s really exciting, right?” Jen: Well, it can be like when you go shopping with your girlfriend and you only need one thing, like you need a pair of jeans and then you get in the store and your friends are like “I’m getting jeans. Oh, I also need earrings and look at this top, it’s so cute, and this coat” and then all of a sudden you’re like “Yeah, those things are so great. I should look at them too and I should get them too” and then all of a sudden you’re leaving the store with like 6 bags and you only want one pair of jeans, right? So during New Years, it’s just that you’re just surrounded by people changing all the things and you’re like “Well that is such a good idea, I need to address that in my life too. Oh and that would be great too and that too” and then all of a sudden you’ve got 10 New Year’s resolutions. Annie: And the power of suggestion, sorry, Lauren, go ahead. Lauren: I was going to say, well, even more than that for me is I would feel like I had to make a New Year’s resolution period, like even if I was not in a particular space in my life where I could handle a new goal or setting a New Year’s resolution, like, I had my daughter 5 years ago on December 1st and so it was like “Oh, I should make a New Year’s resolution” while I had an infant, you know, right, probably not the best time. Annie: Yes and I was just going to add to the power of suggestion is really, really strong around this year because Jen you’ve shared advertising budget numbers from the diet and the fitness industry, they spend a large percentage of their marketing budget this time of year. They are pushing, pushing, pushing- Jen: Yeah, the first few months of the year, the 1st quarter. I can’t remember what the numbers are, I’ve shared them on a past podcast but it’s like 65 percent of their marketing budget is spent in the 1st couple months of the year. Because yeah, so it’s everywhere. Annie: So you’re really, really, you’re likely seeing it in magazines and commercials and newspapers, in bookstores and anywhere you’re going, essentially, to buy this product, buy this program, purchase this service, purchase this membership- Jen: Yeah, people have no idea, like, how much thought goes into marketing and so even, you’ll see, I noticed in my local bookstore that throughout the year when you walk in there’s different tables set up featuring, you know, new books or this all these books on this topic. Well, in December or January the diet table comes to the very front of the store so when you walk in it’s right there. Because they know, they know that that’s the time to be selling these books, to put them right in front of you, get you thinking about it, it makes you buy them. We like to think we’re so in control of our choices but we really are not. Annie: I was just going to say that because I know, Annie 10 years ago would have walked into Barnes and Noble or whatever this bookstore, saw the diet book and “it’s like they knew what I wanted,” like, yeah, how did I, like, you know, how did they know but really? Jen: If you don’t even think about the change, it’s like, this must have always been here. Annie: Right, it’s like, like, you know, it’s like, it’s, now we have Amazon ads popping up on our feed, you know, like Lauren, you just talked about how you were, posted about your standing desk. Lauren: Oh my gosh, yes, I got this standing desk which is amazing, I got it from Costco, I don’t know if it’ll still be here when this airs but I got it from Costco and I posted about it on my story and I had never seen an ad for a standing desk before and after I posted it on my story I was started seeing Instagram ads for this other standing desk and it freaked me out. Jen: Oh. There’s so many conspiracy theories around what Facebook and Instagram listen to and of course they deny, deny, deny but that happens to me all the time. Sometimes I feel like I’m talking to a friend about something, like, in person- Lauren: Yes. Jen: Then I’ll start seeing those ads on my feed. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: There’s a meme that it’s like, of course, if I had a dollar for every time I started a sentence with “There’s a meme” on Instagram that says “Oh, oh, that’s weird how this showed up on my feed when I didn’t talk to anyone about it, I didn’t type it, I didn’t search it, like, it’s, like, there in your brains, you know- Jen: You thought it. Annie: Yes, but anyways, it is, you know, it’s kind of like when you go to Target and your kids don’t want goldfish until they see the goldfish and then you know and it’s like “Now I can’t live without the goldfish.” Jen: And you have to and there’s also food, food companies have to pay more to get their products on the shelf at eye level. Lauren: Yes. Jen: Do you know I mean because they know it leads to you choosing it more so they make a deal with, you know, whatever supermarket chain and they pay a fee to have their product at eye level, like, you really, if you know what I mean, like, it’s just there’s so much of this that goes on that consumers aren’t aware of. Annie: Right, which we kind of went off on a tangent there and I think that would make a really great podcast about how the the science and psychology behind marketing and how it works the way it does, especially when it comes to health and wellness but the point here is that you can set these goals any time of year, so even though the bookstores are pushing it or you might feel like you’re seeing these messages to get these really brand new fresh goals around your health and your wellness. It seems like it’s everywhere. Remember that you can set these 6 months from now, 3 months from now, any time a year. You don’t have to feel pressure to do it on New Year’s Day. Jen: Yes and now that we have told everybody about it, you will start noticing it and you can be more critical about it and this is called media literacy and media literacy has been found to be one of the greatest tools in preventing disordered eating and body image issues. So pass it on. Annie: Pass it on. Stay woke, right? Jen: Stay woke. Annie: OK. Number two, remember your why. Ask yourself “Does this really matter to you?” when you’re setting your New Year’s resolutions because along the same lines of getting caught up, this can tend to be following the leader, kind of like Jen said when you’re shopping with your girlfriend and in my experience, what’s personally happened to me before is one girlfriend dinner is like “Oh yeah, I’m going to join this gym, I’m going to start this program, I’m going to start this diet” and the rest of us are like “Oh yeah, like, I guess that sounds good,” like, “That sounds good to me, I’ll do that too” or like “Guess I hadn’t really given it that much thought but she’s done the research. And she seems to think it’s a good idea so I’ll do it too” and if you listen to our Stages of Change podcast with our Balance365 Coach Melissa Parker, you’ll know that skipping stages like contemplation, where you’re thinking about doing a thing and preparation, where you’re making plans to do the thing, are actually really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons people- Jen: Not skipping stages. Annie: Sorry, yes, not skipping stages. It’s really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons that people can fall flat on New Year’s resolution time is because they join the gym, they buy the meal plan, they sign up for the challenge or whatever it is they’re doing without really considering “Does this even matter to me? Is this a good time in my life to do this? Is this reasonable to think that I can do whatever is required to make this goal happen?” Just like Lauren said, like, she just felt this pressure to make a resolution and it’s like “Hey, I just had a baby. Maybe now isn’t the time to be all in on whatever it is I’m wanting to do” and if you give it some reflection and you come up with like “No, this isn’t OK. This isn’t the time, this isn’t the thing I want. That’s OK. It doesn’t mean that you’re stuck wherever, you’re out forever. It just means that maybe you need to re-evaluate and get some clarity on what your goal is and how you’re going to get there. Jen: Yeah, it often is related to, I think, feelings of guilt around holiday eating as well so, I mean, that’s why the advertising is so successful, right, because they know you’re feeling bad about all the eating and sitting around you’re doing over the holidays and that becomes your motivation, right, which is shame-based motivation, which we also know through research that shame-based motivation is not lasting. Lauren: Yeah, and I’ll add too on this that this is why we actually added a section in Balance365 it’s called The Story of You and it helps you to uncover what your values are and what your core values are and so not only does that help you when you are making changes because when you make a change if it connects with one of your core values you’re more likely to stick to it but it also can weed out this extra stuff so you can think back “Well does this really support any of my core values?” and if it doesn’t you can feel a lot better of saying like “Oh, this isn’t for me, like, it’s good for them, it’s not good for me.” Jen: Right. Annie: And circling back to what Jen said about shame-based marketing, you know, I think in the past when I have started a new diet or a new exercise routine on New Year’s Day it has usually been to combat those feelings of shame and guilt about eating too much, missing the gym because I’ve been busier than normal, the weather’s been crummy, not enough daylight, you know, whatever fill in the blank and they know this. Lauren: Yeah, that was always me, like it comes right after the holidays, right, where everyone’s crazy busy, there’s treats everywhere. And it’s just like, it’s kind of like a perfect storm, right, everyone’s doing it, you feel crappy, the advertising is being pushed to you, so it comes together on January 1st. Jen: Yeah and it’s just it’s all part of that roller coaster, though, you could start if you zoom out a bit and start identifying trends so most people wouldn’t binge over Christmas if they weren’t dieting before Christmas. Lauren: Right, yeah. Jen: And most people wouldn’t diet before Christmas if they were bingeing at Thanksgiving. Lauren: And then you wouldn’t feel crappy, right? And wouldn’t be like “I need to do something.” Jen: Right, so the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas is also a very, very popular time to go on a diet so, you know, people go into the holiday, basically, diet to counteract their Thanksgiving bingeing and to prep themselves for Christmas. Someone just said the other day, told me a friend of theirs was working on losing 5 pounds in preparation for the holidays and I’m, you know, it’s funny kind of, but you’re also like, I just cringe and think, “Oh my gosh, like, you’re basically just announcing that you have an eating disorder and that you are starving yourself in preparation for being able to binge.” Lauren: Right and that just feeds right into the cycle. Jen: Yeah and then so you binge over Christmas and then you get back on that diet rollercoaster for January and then, you know, then you restrict, then you binge and then you’re restricting for your bikini season and then it’s just, it’s just wild. Annie: And most people are trying to stop that cycle in the binge, when they’re in the binge they want to pull all the way back to restriction which I totally get, like, that seems to be, like, “Well, duh, like, I, you know, I’m either all in or I’m all out, I’m on the wagon, I’m off the wagon,” like there’s just two extremes and our approach would be to just let that pendulum settle down in the middle like, don’t pull it so far back. Jen: Yeah, so Chastity, she’s in Balance365, she said the other day is that people want to stop bingeing but unfortunately they don’t want to stop restricting. However the solution to stop bingeing is to stop restricting as well. Lauren: Right. Jen: And people just really have a hard time wrapping their heads around that. Annie: Absolutely, I mean, it can be scary because it feels like you’re letting go of some of that control, especially if you’ve been dieting for years and that’s what you know, that a lot of women feel comfortable and in control when they’re dieting, even if they’re miserable, even if they’re white knuckling it. Lauren: I remember someone when we first started doing this had been dieting for years and years and she was terrified when we told her like stop counting your points, stop counting, like, just give yourself permission to eat and she was like “I will literally start eating and never stop.” Jen: I remember that too. Lauren: And like, spoiler, that didn’t happen and now she lives a free life and she doesn’t count and she’s happy with her progress but she was terrified, like there was a real fear for her. Jen: Right. Annie: So once again we went on a little tangent. Jen: As we do. Annie: I’m just looking at our outline, like “Remember your why” and now we’re talking about restriction and it’s all connected though, isn’t it? Jen: So remember your why. So remember that you don’t want to be on the diet roller coaster and that is your why for not jumping on board a new diet in January. Annie: Well and why am I doing this again, if I am being honest and years past it would have been to try to avoid or to remove some of those feelings of guilt and shame, so it’s like “OK, I’m just going to try to regain all of my control by doing all the things and doing them perfectly” and you know, again, it just, what that does is eventually perpetuates the cycle of this diet cycle. Jen: Yeah, an alternative to feeling guilty is to say “Wait a sec, I’m human and just like everybody else at Christmas, I indulge in the holiday foods and move along.” Annie: Yeah. Because the holiday foods are yummy. Jen: They are. Annie: They are yummy. And yeah and just cut yourself some slack, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK, so we covered the first two. A, you don’t have to make these New Year’s resolutions just this time of year, you can set goals or new intentions or create new habits any time of year, then you evaluate like “Does this really matter to me? Why am I doing this? What’s my purpose? What’s my mission behind this? What am I hoping to get out of this?” and then if you come to the conclusion that “I still want to move forward. I still want to make change” and your resolutions are around things like eating healthier, exercising more, drinking less, quitting smoking then we’re talking about changing habits which, shockingly, is something we’re pretty good at helping people do. Surprise! And Lauren you have some really good information about creating and changing habits, but essentially it boils down to you don’t have to overhaul your entire life overnight because so often people go to bed on New Year’s Eve and they’re like, they set these plans and they’re going to wake up like a person with completely new habits on January 1st, like 12 hours later, new year, new me, right? Lauren: Right. That would be really nice. Annie: It would be great if it were just that simple, if all the change could happen. Jen: If worked, we would encourage it. Lauren: Yeah, right. Annie: Yeah, it’d be a heck of a lot quicker but will you share the statistics about why changing too many things at once isn’t likely to bode well for you? Lauren: Yes, so we share this all the time, actually but I find that it’s so eye-opening for people is that studies show that if you want to change a habit and you change one small thing and only that thing you have about an 80 percent chance of sticking with that change long term, which is actually really good for percentages. If you try and change too things at the same time your success rate of sticking with both of those things drops down to about 30 percent and then 3 or more changes at the same time your success rate drops to almost 0 sticking with all those changes and then the more things you add on, the less and less your success rate will be. Annie: That’s not very promising to change a lot of things at once is it. Lauren: No, so not only do you not have to, you shouldn’t if you care about sticking with it, right? Annie: Yes, so when you think about someone that wakes up New Year’s Day and is like I’m going to change all 3 of my meals, plus my snacks, plus my sleep habits, plus my water and alcohol consumption, now I’m also going to add going into the gym 5-6 times a week, that is so many behaviors that it takes to change, I mean we’re talking about, like, let’s take a look at a meal, like, what does it take to change a meal, like, it could change what you put on your plate, how you prepare your food, what kind of foods you’re buying at the grocery store, it might require, do you even go to the grocery store in the first place versus eating out, I mean, and those are the little steps that take to build a really great solid habit that so many people overlook. They just think “I’m just going to start eating a balanced breakfast, lunch and dinner tomorrow, all the time, forever and ever amen.” Lauren: And our brains just don’t work like that. It’s just the way we’re wired and you know, we, like our brains, like consistency and constants and so it’s not going to bode well for you if you try and change everything all at the same time. Jen: I don’t even like going somewhere new in the grocery store, like a new aisle. Like when I when I’m looking at recipes and there’s just some whacko ingredient, you know, that either you can’t find in a regular supermarket or I’ve just never seen that before I’m like, “Next!” Like, I just really resist. Yeah. Annie: I think, yeah, I mean, obviously when it comes to cooking I’m the same way. I see it is a recipe with more than like four ingredients and I’m like “No, I’m out.” Lauren: Thank you, next. Jen: Yeah, I know as far as our plans on expanding our our recipe collection on our website and just looking at, like, when we had a woman making recipes for us this fall and the first couple she sent me I was like, “Listen, like chickpea flour is just not going to fly.” Lauren: I feel like we should have a test where like if Annie, Lauren and Jen can’t make it it doesn’t get put out there and we would be like, “Pizza. Quesadillas. Chicken.” Jen: Yeah yeah and so it’s like, I remember I would go all in like back in my dieting days on making things like cauliflower pizza crust. Lauren: Yes I would take so long to make meals and they would always taste like crap. Jen: Yeah and so but then it’s like, you know, five years later, we’re just having pizza, like just regular crust and it’s way better. Lauren: Like, it’s fine. Jen: It’s like all those steps, right, like all those steps to make, to just get in the habit of making these healthy pizza crusts and yeah just really makes no difference. Annie: And now, yeah, I feel good just throwing some veggies and some fruit and some extra protein on my Jack’s frozen pizza. Jen: Yeah, like, I’ll just have a side of cauliflower with my regular pizza. Instead of trying to work it into the crust. Annie: I really like how you say cauliflower. Lauren: Cauliflower. Annie: Anyways, yeah, but truly I think people really underestimate how much energy is required to change just one habit and it’s definitely a slower process but what we hear from women in our community that are working through our program is that it feels effortless, they’re not white knuckling through all these changes and just like, “Oh my gosh, I hope I can do this. I just need to do this for a little bit longer before it comes automatic.” They’re like, actually, they’re kind of like looking around like “Is this really all I’m doing? Like, this is all you want me to focus on?” and we’re like “Yeah, actually.” Jen: Just this one thing. Annie: That is. Jen: Yeah. Annie: And if you’re talking about changing existing habits, which that comes up a lot around New Years resolutions too is the best way to change an existing habit is to replace it with a new one and Lauren and I have a pretty good podcast, actually two podcasts on how habits are built, like Habits 101, and then how to change or break bad habits, so if you want more information on the science and the process behind habit building and breaking bad habits, I would highly encourage you to listen to those because, I mean, I think we give some pretty good tidbits. Lauren: It’s pretty good. Annie: I mean, it’s alright. And the other thing I want to add onto that too in terms of habit changing and going a little bit slower is to discuss the difference between outcome-based goals and behavior-based goals because so often, again, resolutions seem to be outcome-based goals. I want to lose 10 pounds. I want to run a 5K. I want to compete in this challenge or whatever and it doesn’t really address the behaviors, like, OK, how are you actually going to do that? What actions are you going to take to lose 10 pounds? Like I’m not poo-pooing weight loss as a resolution goal, your body, your choice. But how are you going to lose that 10 pounds? It might be I’m going to start exercising on Monday, Wednesday, Friday for 30 minutes or I’m going to replace, you know, X, Y, Z with vegetables on my plate or I’m going to increase protein or you know, whatever that looks like, we would encourage you to write your goals based off of your behaviors, not the outcome you want, because so often if you take care of the behaviors, which we have more control over, the outcome will just naturally be a byproduct of it and so often I see women doing all the right things and they don’t get the outcome they want and then they feel like a failure, you know, they’re making all these great changes. Especially when it comes to weight loss. We’ve seen women work their butts off to try to lose weight, you know, they’re maybe exercising more, they are addressing their self talk, they’re getting more sleep, they are cutting back on sugary drinks or alcoholic drinks or whatever that is they’re working on and they step on the scale and they’re down 3 pounds instead of the desired 10 pounds and all of a sudden they feel like they’ve failed. Lauren: Right. Jen: When they’ve actually succeeded in all these areas of life that a lot of people struggle to succeed in and it’s huge, it’s a huge big deal. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah, when really if you just zoom out and it’s like “Oh my gosh, look at all this great change I’ve made, I’m feeling better I’m taking better care of my body or you know, whatever it is, fill in the blank, that we just tend to lose sight of that when our goals are outcome based. Lauren: Also when they step on the scale and they see that, that they haven’t lost as much as they had hoped, they also a lot of times will be like “Well, what’s the point, right ?” and then they don’t continue doing those behaviors and it’s the continuation and consistency of those behaviors that’s going to lead to possibly them reaching their goal, right? Annie: Yeah, so the easiest way to turn your outcome based goal, if that’s what you were thinking about before listening to podcast, into a behavior based goal is to just ask yourself “How am I going to achieve that? How am I going to run a 5K? How am I going to run a marathon? How am I going to lose 10 pounds? How am I gonna?” Jen: Yeah. Annie: You know, like and then usually that how, that’s the behavior. Jen: Yeah and then realize that that outcome goal you have actually could be made up of a series of behavior changes that need to happen one at a time, therefore it may not happen as quickly as you like, which is OK. Life is long. Annie: Yeah, it’s the tortoise and the hare, right? Jen: It’s a journey. Annie: Yeah, as cheesy as that sounds, people are probably like, “Oh, come on.” Jen: It’s a journey. Lauren: Zen Jen over there. Jen: I know. Annie: Enjoy the process. Jen: Gandhi. Annie: We need one of those successory memes. You know, popular in the nineties. OK, well those are the three main points I wanted to discuss when it comes to New Year’s resolutions. Is there anything you two would like to add? Lauren: I don’t think so. Annie: OK, let’s do a quick review. First of all, before you set your New Year’s resolutions remember that you can set these new goals, create new habits, set new intentions, you can have a clean slate any time of the year. I totally understand that it’s super enticing to have like new year, new me but you can do this on May 1st just as easily as you can January 1st. The second one is to remember your, why does this really matter to you? Are you just doing this because your girlfriends are doing this or because marketing is telling you to do this or is this something that you really desire and then on top of that are you willing to do what it takes to make that happen and sometimes the answer is no, like Lauren said, you know, she really maybe wanted some of the things she wanted after having Elliott but it just wasn’t, the timing wasn’t good and honoring that, and being like, “Hey, I can just put that on the back burner and wait a little bit to start that until I’m ready to make those changes and I’m able to make those changes and stick with them” is absolutely, that’s an OK answer. Jen: I know you always say, Annie, there is more than two options, it’s not always “yes” and “no”, there’s a third option which is “later.” Annie: I would love to take credit for that but that’s actually Lauren. Jen: Oh, I’m sorry, Lauren. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Yes. I was like, as soon as you said that I was like “Oh, I really wanted credit for it because it’s good, it’s good advice, but I’m going to be honest, that’s Lauren’s advice.” Yes, later is always an option which I think is, that’s goes back to your maturity about responding, Jen, versus reacting, you know, so many people can get reactive during New Year’s resolutions like they feel compelled to do something just because everyone else is doing them and it’s like, if you just have pause, like think like “Do I want this? Was I considering this before I heard Susan over here talking about her weight loss? Like. Jen: I always think of my inner BFF like she’s, she just like, she comes to me in that first second I react and then give it 20 seconds and my inner B.F.F. is sitting beside me like “Hey, girlfriend. Calm down.” Annie: That first voice in me though, she can be really kind of grumpy sometimes. Jen: She’s my naughty friend. She’s naughty. Annie: Let’s do it! Yeah! Is this is code for Annie and Lauren? Jen: There’s Annie and then there’s Lauren. Annie: Annie is like shoving you into the mosh pit at a concert, like “You can do it!” and Lauren’s like, “I don’t think that’s a good idea.” Jen: Let’s stay safe back here. Annie: Both are needed sometimes, OK? And the last point we just discussed today was that you don’t have to overhaul your life in one night, that to think that you’re going to go to bed on December 31st and wake up 8 hours later a completely different person doesn’t usually happen for people and that’s not, that’s not because you lack willpower or motivation or determination or discipline, that’s just the way behavior change works and it takes time and slowing down the process to focus one thing until that becomes automatic and then layering on brick by brick is usually the best place to start and we have a saying too that we stole from James Clear that “Rome wasn’t built in a day but they were laying bricks often” Lauren: We changed it to make it our own. What’s our new one? Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Jen: Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Annie: Beyonce also wasn’t built in a day. So if you could just lay a brick, you know, if you have these big goals 2019, 2020, 2021, start with a brick, really and lay your strong foundations, good solid habits, one by one and you’ll get there eventually and hopefully you’ll wake up one day and you’ll have this big beautiful Coliseum and you’ll be like “Oh, that was easy.” Jen: Exactly. Exactly. That really is how it happens. Annie: Yeah and I know that’s probably sounds a little bit ridiculous or a little bit too good to be true but you need to be able to play the long game for behavior change, you have to have big picture and patience which, I’m saying that to myself right now. I’m talking in a mirror. And yeah, hopefully this helps people build some better resolutions. I would love to hear what people are working on. So if you are working on something for the new year and you want to talk about it, please join our Facebook group, it’s, we’re Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. We have 40,000 women in our private Facebook group and if you need a place for safe support, reasonable advice and moderation, this is your place to go. Jen: I got a huge compliment yesterday. I was at a cookie exchange with 10 women and not many people know about my our company locally where I live and actually a couple women from my community just joined and the one woman said to me yesterday “Your group is the first place I’ve ever found that actually promotes you giving yourself grace.” Lauren: Aww. Annie: Can we like get a testimonial from her? Jen: I’ll ask her. She’s in Balance365 now. Annie: Oh that’s wonderful. Jen: She would be happy to. Anne: Yeah, I think it’s a pretty sweet place. We have amazing women, it’s really, it’s not it’s not us, it’s our community that’s made it such an amazing place to be, they provide support, applause and encouragement and tough love sometimes when it’s needed. It’s a great place to be, so find us on Facebook at Healthy Habits Happy moms You can also tag us on social media on Instagram and show us what you’re working on, show us your more reasonable New Year’s resolutions. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yeah, I like that. Annie: Yeah, me too. OK, anything to add? Jen: No. Lauren: No. Annie: We’re good to go? Alright, well, we’ll talk soon, OK? Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye. The post Episode 46: 3 Ways To Improve Your New Year’s Resolutions appeared first on Balance365.

The holiday season can be tough, with so many opportunities for unwelcome commentary on our bodies, diets and exercise routines from well-meaning relatives. What’s worse, our kids are exposed to it too. Jen, Annie and Lauren get together and discuss how to set boundaries this holiday season so you can enjoy your family time together, free from the discomfort of unwanted opinions and negativity. Learn how to be the change you want to see in the world and find peace among the chaos of diet culture. What you’ll hear in this episode: The damage of body shaming discussion on children The normalization of negative weight related discussions and body judgments in popular culture Reasons to set boundaries around negative body talk around your kids A comparison of the diet industry and tobacco industry’s tactics to normalize something that is damaging Statistics around the prevalence of disordered eating What is your grocery checkout stocked with? Preparing your kids for the road How to set boundaries in a clear, kind-hearted, non-confrontational way How negative body talk is like second hand smoke The role of media literacy in filtering negative messaging Prevalence of weight loss advertising and negative media messages What to do when you don’t feel comfortable setting a boundary Getting curious about where people are coming from with body commentary The discomfort of change Talking to our kids about the diet industry, body image and media messages Raising critical thinkers Free To Be Talks Workshops Effecting change at the individual and community level   Resources: The Habit That’s as Toxic to Children as Smoking Five Stages of Behavior Change Episode 13: How Your Body Image Impacts Your Children with Hillary McBride Free To Be Talks Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Thanks for joining us here on Balance365 Life Radio, I am really excited about this episode and we actually jumped this topic to the head of the line because we felt it was just that important, especially this time of year. Today Lauren, Jen and I discuss the importance of setting boundaries with your friends and your family as it pertains to discussions about bodies and behaviors. Women’s appearance, exercise routines and eating habits seem to be free game and constantly open for discussion and debate. Conversations about who’s gained weight, who’s lost weight, how Aunt Jan has given up carbs or the latest supermodel that got her body back so quickly after baby number 3 can unfortunately be heard across the globe. After working with thousands of women, we know that with the holiday season many of us might find ourselves on the receiving end or at the very least, within earshot of comments of this nature. This unwelcome commentary can be shocking, infuriating but most importantly, it can be really harmful, especially to the little eyes and ears that are watching and listening. On this episode, we dive into the importance of women and mothers setting boundaries around diet talk and body shaming, share ideas on how to respond and address these comments if and when they happen and finally, how to help you and your children process those same situations. As always our free private Facebook group can be a great space to continue the discussion if you so wish, you can find us on Facebook at Healthy Habits Happy moms. We’ll see you on the inside. Lauren and Jen, we are all three together, it’s been a while. Lauren: Hi! Annie: You’re just here for the party, we know, Lauren and Jen, how are you? Jen: Good, I really missed recording with you guys. I was away and you did like 3 episodes without me. Annie: I know, you you were on a little family vacation. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Looked fun, we missed you though. Jen: Yeah, I missed you guys too but it was like my first holiday in, with my kids, in years so it was a lot of fun and I have to say, for the parents listening that it is a whole different world to go on holidays with children who are 5-6 and 9 than babies and toddlers. Lauren: That’s really good to hear. Annie: So there’s hope. Jen: Oh yeah, well it just got, for us, it got to a point where I was like “We aren’t traveling anymore. I can’t do this. I can’t take 3 car seats and a double stroller and a diaper bag on every holiday. It’s too… I might as well just stay home because it’s more stressful on holiday.” So now it was just surreal to just be sitting back and watching my kids handle themselves, like carry backpacks and yeah and just like not have myself loaded down, you know, like, I just had a backpack too. It was amazing. Annie: I heard a comparison made that there’s a difference between vacation and trips and you take a trip with your family. It’s not, it doesn’t always feel like a vacation, it’s sometimes a lot of work. Jen: The other thing when you have little babies and toddlers is we would always do like AirBNB apartments because we just felt like we needed the space and with kids getting up in the night we, you know, we just needed like different rooms etc and but that meant that we were also cooking and cleaning up after ourselves on “holidays” too and I would sometimes be like “Why did we leave home? Like, I just feel like I’m in the kitchen all the time.” So on this trip we only stayed in hotels and we ate out for every meal and I can’t even tell you how great that was too to not cook for 10 days. It was amazing. Annie: Yeah that sounds really nice and the weather looked so nice. Jen: Yeah, it was beautiful. Annie: Yeah, but we’re happy to have you back- Jen: Thank you. Annie: Because we have a really good topic and I think it’s going to be best addressed and best covered with all three of us on board and this is actually kind of a combination of two topics that we’ve discussed either in a podcast or a blog post that we kind of married together and we actually are doing kind of a last-minute recording because we wanted to squeeze this topic in before the holidays because what comes up so frequently in our community, which if you’re not a part of it,it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, over 40,000 women, it’s a great place to continue the discussion, ask questions get support if you need it but something that comes up in our community often is how to respond to comments about your body or behaviors and how then to set boundaries with family members and with it being the holiday season, it seems like we’re exposed to so many more opportunities to have those comments thrown at us, right? And it’s a really common experience with women in our communities that are our bodies and our behaviors, what’s on our plate, how we are exercising, how we’re talking, how we look, always seem to be free game for discussion and debate and it’s really regardless of your body shape and size because prior to this, when we covered it in a podcast the first time, I did a poll in our community and women of all shapes and sizes has experienced comments and remarks like this and it can not only be shocking but infuriating and they can also be harmful to everyone within earshot, right? Jen: Right. Annie: and Jen, you made, it was, we’re approaching the two year anniversary of the blog post that you wrote that was amazing and it’s still on our blog today, but you made an amazing analogy of the harmful effects of body shaming, disordered eating behaviors, negative body talk as it relates to smoking, can you share a little bit about that? Jen: Yeah, first of all, it’s wild, two years ago. Annie: I know. Jen: And so we are talking about the same things, which is great, we hope it’s sinking in, two years later, so I am the analogy queen in our community and I find that sometimes drawing parallels in other areas of life is what really gets the stuff to stick with women and the other thing, when we talk about disordered eating, I just want everybody to know that in, like, eating disorder, I guess, literature and circles, dieting is considered under the realm of disordered eating, so dieting is disordered eating, so when you are talking about dieting around the Christmas dinner table or Thanksgiving dinner table, you’re actually talking about disordered eating, your disordered eating behaviors and 100 years ago it might have been shocking that somebody would would speak up at dinner to say that they’re purposely starving themselves or cutting out carbs but over the years, it’s become normalized, so it’s part of our normal conversation to discuss these things. So what I compared it to in this blog post was that at one point, smoking indoors used to be completely normal. My step mom talks about how she had my older sister in hospital and they whisked the baby away after and the first thing she did was light up a cigarette in the hospital. And everybody had an ashtray right beside their hospital bed and so this was about 40 years ago. Today, that would never fly. So the damaging health effects of smoking and secondhand smoking is well researched, we know the effects, smoking is banned in public spaces, we keep it away from children. I don’t know what the rules are down there but in Canada, it’s illegal to smoke cigarettes inside of a vehicle if you have anyone in the car that’s under 16. And we have family members who smoke and I don’t think they would dream of smoking inside my house, however if they came over and tried, I would immediately, I would have, you know, no issue with saying “Oh, can you please take that outside, this is a smoke free home.” So the parallel I drew is that we also know the effects of discussing bodies and disordered eating. We know that they have serious long term effects to your own personal health but also to the little ears or the children in the room listening to all of this and setting a boundary with friends and family around smoking is probably not a problem for anyone listening, however it still feels extremely uncomfortable to set this boundary around talking about weight, bodies, disordered eating, dieting but if you really put that into context, “Hey, we know this is extremely harmful.” And if you’re having trouble setting the boundary for yourself, just really think, like, now is the time that you need to step up for your kids and say “Hey, no this is not OK to discuss around our kids. If you want to talk to me about this later, that’s fine but you know, there’s little ears in the room.” Annie: And oftentimes, you know, the difference here is that unlike smoking, many people aren’t aware just yet of the harmful consequences of this type of talk and how contagious it is and how detrimental it can be to the eyes and ears that are watching and listening and I think if people knew, which is part of our mission, right, to draw attention to the negative consequences of dieting and body shaming and weight talk, if people knew like they know the harmful effects of smoking, you know, maybe they would be changing the conversation. Lauren: Yeah. Jen: Absolutely, so it’s sort of like, in the “olden days” they talk about how the big tobacco companies went to great lengths to hide the negative, they knew what the negative effects of smoking were and they went to great lengths to try and sort of cover that up and they were lobbying government et cetera, et cetera, they would have doctors as their spokespeople saying smoking was safe and that, basically, is happening today with diet companies. You have, you know, huge diet companies, they have crazy popular spokeswomen or spokespeople, I should say, fronting their brand but the research hasn’t caught up with the public yet. It’s not common knowledge yet so, but we know, it is well researched, we have decades and decades of research about how harmful dieting is, how harmful body shaming is especially for children. Like, body based teasing is one of the biggest contributors to future disordered eating/eating disorders. So the other thing is that I think I feel like awareness around mental health is just coming to the forefront, I guess, where in years gone past we haven’t talked about mental health as much. The focus really has been on physical health. And now we’re starting to see more talk of mental health and taking care of our mental health and what that means for people but I don’t think talking about mental health is as widely accepted yet either, so it’s quite a big conversation. This podcast, what we wanted to cover and talk about in just sort of bring to people’s consciousness is it’s OK to set boundaries in your home around what you expose your children to. Annie: Right, because it’s, you know, essentially in that blog post, which we can link in the show notes, along with all the research or just a handful of the research that we’ve looked at and essentially, you know, kind of compares it to being trapped in a smoky room, you know. Jen: Right. Annie: When, you know, when you are filling your home over the holidays or your environment with that sort of talk, I mean, it’s, the parallel is there, right? And it’s not it’s not one time that’s going to make or break but it’s that constant exposure, the fact that they don’t have a place to process this, that they can’t escape, that they don’t have an alternative, that there’s no discussion about, you know, the consequences and why you would do this or that, like that’s really what we want to begin to bring to light, right? Jen: Yeah and children are listening, like they want to listen, right? I catch my oldest son, he’s 9, I see him all the time, I can just see him, he’s paying attention to what the adults are talking about, he wants to know, he’s interested, he’s learning how to be an adult, right? And so this is something that we pretty much hand down to our children as acceptable and OK. So what we see today and we see this a lot in our Facebook group and just on social media in general, you hear a lot of women talking about, or sharing stories of somebody commenting about their body and how offended they are, whether somebody asks them if they’re expecting or if they’ve lost weight or what diet they’re on and women are saying, “Hey!” You know, they’re starting to notice, people comment on our bodies all the time but this is learned behavior, right, this isn’t some evil person, you know, or mean-spirited person popping out and just body shaming. It’s learned behavior. We make it acceptable at an early age so anybody who’s making those comments today probably grew up in an environment where it was absolutely OK and I think we’re still in that environment. If you are checking out at the grocery store and it’s full of trashy magazines around you, you’ll see that, we have, it’s open season on women’s bodies and men’s to a degree. You might have a National Enquirer there talking about whose, which celebrities have “let themselves go”, what weight this celebrity is, what weight that celebrity is, who has “gotten their body back after baby”, you know, the quickest. It is open season and that’s the kind of stuff that goes on around us that might not even be, you know, in our consciousness, right, so if you start paying attention, you’ll see it’s not just happening around the dinner table at Christmas, it’s happening everywhere and at some point you need to step up and say “Hey this is not OK” and you need to go to your children and say “This is not OK. This is not what our family values and just because, you know, Uncle Ted, you know, talks about women’s bodies that way, it is absolutely not OK” and you need to set that boundary with Uncle Ted or whoever your uncle is or Aunt, and let them know that’s not OK and if that has to happen in front of your kids, all the better. Annie: I just want to circle back, just in case people aren’t familiar with some of the statistics out there that I feel like we share frequently but you can never hear these enough, in my opinion but I think as you said the research is out there, it’s our kids are listening and some of the statistics about it are just shocking, I mean as it pertains to adult women, approximately half of women engage in disordered eating and risky dieting practices, including one 3rd of women report purging. Jen: Right. Annie: 75 percent of women report that their weight interferes with their happiness, which, I’ve been there, that’s been me at various points in my life. A study of 5 year old girls, a significant proportion of girls associate diet with food restriction and weight loss and thinness, like, how do they know this? Where are they learning this? Jen: Right. Absolutely. Annie: 37 percent of girls in grade 9 and 40 percent in grade 10 perceive themselves as too fat, again, where are they learning this? Why do they think that? More than half of the girls and a third of the boys engage in unhealthy weight control behaviors, for example, fasting, vomiting, laxatives skipping meals or smoking to control their appetite. Again, like, they’re listening, they’re watching, they’re observing. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: Mhmm. Jen: And by the time a girl is 17 to 18 years old, that stat is up to 80 percent, so 80 percent of 17 and 18 year old girls believe they need to lose weight, like these aren’t like, you know, these aren’t like, outliers. This is the majority of our population and again, this is all learned behavior. Annie: Righ. And it’s, you know, we have a little bit of control over here and that’s why we’re in the business that we’re in because it’s not just enough for the three of us to parent our kids, like we need everyone on board to really make a really big impact. Jen: Absolutely. Annie: So that’s the part of our mission, to like, create this big wave, this ripple effect, like everyone’s on board and everyone’s promoting healthy balance lifestyles without all this other unnecessary, unhealthy behavior. Jen: Totally, I look at my local supermarket and the changes that they’ve made to have a healthier physical environment for my children so when I take them shopping there are, they’re called, like “junk food free aisles” so that you don’t have to deal with, like, your kid seeing the treats and wanting, you know, asking for treats so you can choose to go down those check outs instead of the ones that are lined with candy and also, in my local supermarket, they have a basket of fruits and vegetables for kids to just take for free to eat while you’re shopping and so I think “Wow, look at these changes they’ve made for our children’s physical health, right, taking away the less nutritious food and offering more nutritious food. So now let’s take it a step further and how can they support my child’s mental health?” So it’s one thing to have an aisle that’s free of junk food, but now I have to take my kids down this aisle that is instead stocked with magazines full of body shaming and my kids can read now and so I’m going, which is worse? You’ve taken away the junk food, you’ve replaced it with this basically, junk for your brain. Annie: Right. Jen: Essentially, yes. Annie: But, you know, as we said, I remember when you wrote this blog post and you and I had this conversation and I think we came across the saying “Prepare your kids for the road, not the road for your kids” because this is unfortunately part of our culture, you’re going to be outside of your bubble, especially in the holiday season or you know, even as summer approaches, you know and more skin is shown and you’re at barbecues or you know, year round, it happens, you’re going to be outside of your little bubble, inside of our community it’s like, this stuff doesn’t happen, right? Lauren: Right. Jen: Right. Annie: But when we leave our homes it’s like, or we go to the grocery store, it’s like “Oh my gosh, it really is everywhere.” It’s going to happen. So what do you do when it happens? You set a boundary. You can set a boundary and as you said, it can be so uncomfortable to think about setting a boundary for yourself and speaking up for yourself, but if you put it in terms of like, “I’m standing up for my kid” then it’s like- Jen: Totally. Annie: As a mother it’s like, “Oh”, it becomes so much easier, right? Jen: Yes, then it’s like “Roar!” Annie: Mama Bear, right? Mama lion. Jen: Exactly. Annie: Yeah, so, you know, setting boundaries, let’s talk about how to do that because it can be uncomfortable. It can be scary but I think you, in that blog post again, you gave a couple very concise, clear, non-confrontive, kind-hearted responses and I think you could just put these in your back pocket, you can put your own twist on them. The first one is “Hey, I understand that you’re struggling with your eating behaviors right now, can we save this conversation for when little ears aren’t around?” and I think that’s perfect, you know, so I picture myself at the buffet table, you know, and my Aunt Jan’s putting stuff on her plate saying “I shouldn’t have this many carbs and I’m just so excited to eat this and I’ll just have to work it off afterwards and it’s going to go straight to my butt” and you know, like that sort of talk. Jen: Yeah, total disordered talk. Annie: Right. Jen: Totally normalized in our culture. Annie: Oh yeah, like, I mean, 4 years ago I probably would have been like “Ahahaha!” Jen: Right. Annie: Now I’m like “Oh no, no, no, no, no, no!” Jen: Yes. Annie: “Could we save that conversation for when little ears aren’t around” and it’s, the three of us have had this conversation so many times, we feel very comfortable being like “Yeah, I’d be happy to talk with you about how to balance your meals, more sustainable practices for your health and wellness and how that talk isn’t really serving you, like we could talk that all day.” Some of our listeners might not be willing or interested in having that conversation, that’s totally cool too, but I think that just acknowledging little ears are listening and we’re just going to zip it, right now, right? Jen: Yeah, like if somebody, I mean, I know we all probably swear a little bit but if somebody like came roaring into the kitchen and was just like dropping F bombs every second word and your kids are sitting there you might be like, ” Hey, there’s little ears here, maybe we could cut that back” Except Annie’s giggling, because she’s like, “No.” Annie: Yeah, yeah. Jen: Don’t tell me how to talk. Lauren: Well, Jen, I think the second hand smoke analogy was so, so good because I’d like to coin the term now “secondhand dieting” because like, that’s basically what it is and if you’ve listened to the podcast you’ll know I started dieting when I was 12. Jen: Right. Lauren: And it’s because secondhand dieting was constant. It was a constant topic of conversation in my family, especially on one side compared to the other, but it was it was constant and I would never, you know, blame my family for any of that, everyone’s, as we know, we’re doing our best, no one’s doing it on purpose, but it’s how, it’s how, like, my grandma’s generation and my mom’s generation was raised. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: And they didn’t know any better, just like before we don’t know any better about smoking. Jen: Right. Lauren: And so when I think back to that, like, I would sing the Jenny Craig song like- Jen: Oh my goodness. Lauren: Like I knew the Jenny Craig song, right? Jen: Let’s hear it, Lauren. Lauren: 1-800-Jenny-20. That’s all I remember but like I would sing it and I just cringe now thinking about all the stuff I listened to and that’s kind of what I draw from, if I ever have to set that boundary for my kids, like my daughter just turned 5 so I’m at the point now where it’s going to, I’m going to have to be more intentional and more careful about it moving forward and if you’ve listened to the podcast you’ll know last year we already had like our 1st incident with that at preschool, talking about, you know, good food versus bad food and I had to start that there earlier than I even thought I would, but at this point going forward, it just gets, you have to be more and more intentional about it. Jen: And it’s everywhere so as Annie had mentioned before, like you can’t, you can, media literacy is one of the most powerful tools in this sort of disordered eating/negative body image crisis we are in with our children and I can’t always be there to filter for my kids but I can teach them how to filter, right? Lauren: Right. Jen: And so one thing I noticed, we haven’t had cable for years and last Christmas we were up at the ski hill here where we live and we were staying there over the Christmas period, staying at a hotel and we would watch T.V. in the evenings and I was shocked at how many diet commercials came on what we’re watching T.V. and I probably wouldn’t even have noticed this 5 years ago because it was just part of my life, it’s part of everybody’s lives, where now I’m so conscious of it and suddenly I’m going like “We are muting the T.V. during commercials because this is ridiculous.” Every single commercial break there was a Weight Watchers ad and just horrible toxic messaging. I remember just. in particular. one woman saying “I can eat whatever I want and still lose weight” and I was like, “Oh! My kids are taking this BS in.” Like, so then we started muting it during commercials because I just, I just do not, and I’m like, you know how kids are, they just, like, stare at a T.V. and they’re just zoned out, whether it’s the TV show or the commercial and I was just like, this is not something I want them hearing over and over and over every commercial break, it’s like, they’re like hypnotized by it, being brainwashed. Annie: And I think that goes back to, you know, just that awareness that you said before, Jen. Sometimes you don’t know how well prevalent it is until you start listening and you just, like that might just be your first step, you don’t have to take any action, maybe you don’t set a boundary this holiday season, maybe- Jen: Right. Annie: where you’re at is you’re just starting to pay attention and you create awareness and you know, you know how, like, when you’re pregnant or maybe you’re trying to get pregnant and all you see is pregnant women? Jen: Right. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like, that’s what this is. Jen: Yeah it is. Annie: The power of suggestion. Once you see it, it’s everywhere. I mean, I swear, I tell people, like, “What do you do for a living?” “Oh, I’m a personal trainer” and it’s like, all of a sudden they go to confession. Jen: Right. Annie: It’s like, “Oh my gosh, I haven’t been to a gym in years, and I ate, oh my gosh, I need to get back and I need to do” and I’m like “It’s OK, I’m not, like, you don’t have to repent your sins to me.” Jen: Right, right. Annie: And it’s just, yeah, like it’s the magazine titles, it’s the conversations with your hairdresser when you’re getting your haircut, you know, the woman that’s evaluating your food at the grocery checkout line, like “Oh is this a good food? I heard this was healthy for you.” You know, it’s like, it’s just everywhere. Jen: You can’t, you have to be really, you have to be, and that’s why it’s so important to hand those tools off to your kids to be critical thinkers about it, right, so my son when we were on this holiday, we’re talking about at the start of the show, we were watching, again T.V. in the hotel room and this, we’re in San Diego, California and one thing I’ve noticed from previous trips to California is weight loss advertising is cranked up there compared to where I live in Canada, which might just be the culture of California, so it’s like, it’s on the radio, everywhere and I just found it, like, “Whoa! it’s definitely not as prevalent where I live” so the commercial that came on was like a freeze the fat thing, like, it’s like a, I don’t know if it’s like a liposuction procedure or whatever, it’s just a commercial and it came on and I was like “Here we go!” and my son was like, “This is ridiculous. It doesn’t even work.” I was like- Annie: Nice. Jen: Yeah! So you can, right, you can teach them and I try and just say to my kids like, you know, we obviously don’t shame people who are dieting or whatever, you have to be careful of that too, as well, but I just say, like, “You know that stuff doesn’t work and there’s a lot of companies out there who will take advantage of people who are struggling and with how they feel about themselves but you know this stuff does not work and there’s a lot of fake things that go on behind the scenes that trick you into believing it works but it doesn’t.” So, yeah. Annie: Well and to add to that, just as there are people in my life that I love dearly and I look up to in many ways, they also smoke. Jen: Right, absolutely. Annie: There’s a lot of great people that are also stuck in diet culture and body shame and weight talk and that doesn’t mean that they’re bad humans or they are terrible, you know, like I love them just as much and they don’t need shaming. Jen: No. Annie: You know, my mom smoked for years and I hated that element of her but I loved her, I hated that behavior, I should say, but I love her dearly. Jen: Well, you know, if you go back to our stages of change podcast where people are with smoking is OK, the awareness is there, it’s not good for you, the tough part with smoking is that it’s an addiction, right, so they are constantly and I mean, I think pretty much all smokers are in the cycle of change, most smokers are probably thinking of quitting all the freaking time, it’s just so difficult. Where, when it comes to dieting and disordered eating, there’s not an addiction there but if you’ve listened to previous podcasts about the diet cycle, it almost mimics one where you just can’t stop trying to diet, like, you just keep going back to it, you get stuck in that cycle but most dieters are not even, the awareness isn’t even there that this is something that is unhealthy for them and that they could even stop doing it. It’s just part of their everyday life, like, that’s what we do, we diet or we don’t diet, we’re on the wagon or we’re off the wagon and that’s what their whole life is, right? So when you are setting this boundary with people, just keep that in mind, like, this could be brand new information to them, it likely is, that this is, that your family doesn’t diet, your family doesn’t body shame, your family doesn’t sit around talking about your own weight or other people’s weight and it’s harmful. It’s harmful to you and it’s harmful to children to hear ,that will be brand new information. So if you decide to set that boundary, go gentle, as Annie said, you don’t have to set that boundary, that is an option, I would personally talk, if I was in a situation where I felt very uncomfortable setting that boundary, I would make sure to speak about, I would speak to my children about it later “Hey, you know, when Grandpa was saying this or that, like, just so you know ,that’s not what we believe in, that wasn’t accurate.” Annie: You’re jumping ahead a bit. Jen: Oh, I’m sorry. Annie: You just got so excited. No, I think that’s a great segue, just to circle back to setting boundaries, you know, like comments, if you need some actual statements, I always have a hard time putting words on my emotions and my feelings, so I like to have these one liners to put my back pocket that I can practice saying and it can be, you know, like I said before, “Can we save this conversation for when the kids aren’t around? My child can eat what he or she wants, eyes on your own plate, please. Can we change the subject? Simple as that and then as far as comments made to you about your own body or about someone else, whether they’re in the room or not, I mean, one of my personal training clients talks about how her father always comments about women in the media and their bodies. Jen: Right. Annie: Like it doesn’t matter because somehow they are immune because they can’t hear us and they’re celebrities and like they don’t count. Jen: Right. Annie: But it’s still worth addressing in my opinion but the first step is decide if you want to have that conversation or not. And sometimes you may not want to, it might be the wrong time, the wrong person, you don’t have the energy and in fact, Lauren and I remember you talking about a family member that you were just like, “This just isn’t a conversation I’m willing to have with her at this point in my life, in her life,” do you remember that? Lauren: Yeah, there’s a lot of my family members actually that I do not really speak about nutrition or whatever unless I’m asked and so as far as I go, it’s like a boundary unless I’m asked about it. Annie: Right. You know, and then the second option, I think, too is, if someone makes a comment to you, I think Jen, you gave this suggestion a couple times to be curious and just simply say, “Why do you ask that? Why do you say that? Can you tell me more? That’s interesting” and just see where they’re coming from and see where that goes because so often, you know, someone makes a comment to me and again, years ago, you know, 4 years ago Annie would have been like “Ugh!” and I would have been offended and embarrassed and ashamed and angry and infuriated but so often, like, that’s not usually how conversations, like, end well. Jen: Yeah, or “Why does, you know, why does that matter to you? Why is this relevant? How does that affect your life?” Annie: Yes, am I reacting this strongly because I’m worried that there’s some truth in what they’re saying, is this about my own body shame and my own negative weight talk and all that, you know, is this the baggage I’m carrying or is this theirs? And now I’m clearly, like, they make a comment about a body or my body and it’s like “What Susie says about Sally says more about Sally than Susie”, like they’re separate, like that’s on them and yeah, that has nothing to do with me. But decide if you want to have the conversation, then be curious, you know, I think that’s a great way to, if you’re not super confrontational, if you don’t want to be confrontational, like, “Why do you say that? Like, that’s interesting, why do you ask that?” and then find your voice. You know, Jen, I think we’ve talked about, like, you tend to be a little bit more like, “No, I don’t want to do that, like, we’re not going to talk about that, let’s change the subject” where I would be like, “Hey, look, squirrel! How about the Cubs?” like, you know, like something like just totally redirect or you could be super sincere and honest and say “I’m sure you’re coming from a place of love and you care but your comments are hurtful, your comments are alarming, they’re concerned, fill in the blank.” Jen: Or “I’m really uncomfortable discussing my body or other women’s bodies in a setting like this or period.” Annie: And you know what? It might get awkward. Jen: Yeah that’s the the thing but- Annie: It might get a little like- Jen: But change is uncomfortable, right? So, you know, we talk all the time on this podcast about needing a cultural shift or we hear it all the time on social media, society needs to change. Well, guess what? We are society and change is uncomfortable so this is going to be uncomfortable but it doesn’t have, discomfort doesn’t mean mean-spirited, discomfort doesn’t even necessarily mean confrontational, it just means uncomfortable and I think if women paid attention, they would actually see that there are many areas of our lives where women take on discomfort in order to not make the people around us uncomfortable and I’m at the point where I’m like, “Why? Why do I have to take on that discomfort all the time?” Annie: Yeah. And as we’ve said numerous times already on this episode, if you can’t find the courage to do that for yourself, maybe you can find the courage to do it for your kids. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: And if you’re not there yet, if you’re just like creating awareness and like, kind of getting your feet under you and kind of deciding what, like, where, how you feel about your body, where you stand, like, that’s really cool too, like this wasn’t an overnight process for the three of us. It’s not like we just jumped from 0 to 100 and now we’re, like, “Chop chop! Like, no, we’re not going to do that!” Like, this was like a, this is a process- Lauren: Definitely. Annie: Where we grew in our comfort to have these conversations. Jen: Is there time for me to share a quick personal story about just this as a reality? Annie: Yes. Jen: So this is based on my own history of very disordered eating and lots of weight talk with my sisters and the effects of that. So my kids are a bit younger and I’ve been able to be on the ball with them from a younger age which has been great. My sister’s children are older, my younger sister, my older sister’s children has children as well, but I’m speaking about my younger sister’s children and so her daughter at 9 years old, she came to me once I got to the house, she came to me and she had just sprouted up. And you know, different kids have different growth patterns but what with my nieces she kind of plumped out first and then she shot up. So what happened when she shot up is that her jean shorts became too big on her around the waist and it happened in just a matter of a couple of months so I get there one day and she comes up to me and she’s like “Auntie, look, Auntie, look!” and she was trying to show me the gap between her denim and her waist and I realized she’s trying to show me and basically bragging at validation and connect with me that she has lost weight and she’s 9 years old but I also was hit with this just feeling like I wanted to throw up, thinking of all the times I had shown up at their door to talk to my sister and the first thing out of my mouth was “I lost 5 pounds last week” or “I put on 5 pounds” or, and my sister’s oldest daughter had just grown up with her aunt, who she loves and admirers and looks up to so much, I’m pumping my own tires here but I’m pretty sure that’s how she feels about me. Annie: Naturally. Jen: She has grown up with that “cool auntie” speaking like that around her so of course she’s now coming to me at 9 years old and trying to connect with me over it the same way she sees her mother and me connecting and she’s just trying to be part of our crew and I was devastated and so not OK with it and so had to take a hard look at myself and go, “This is not OK .This is not OK that our family talks like this and I have been a big contributor to it and I will not do this anymore.” So that was about 5 years ago now, so very happy to see it going in the other direction and what my sister says now, because now we’re these empowered women fighting diet culture, she can’t believe that her daughters have gotten to the age they have and not talked about dieting with her yet, where my sister remembers dieting at a way younger age than even her girls have, so there’s hope, there’s hope here, right, we can make a huge impact. Annie: Absolutely and you know, I just had a little lunch talk a couple weeks ago and it was with a group of about 10 or 12 women, mostly moms and they cannot, they kept expressing concern about how to say the right thing, like, they’re so worried about saying the right thing when it comes to body talk and how we talk about how to take care of our bodies and how to respond when they’re talking about weight loss or how their body looks or they want to wear makeup or they want to wear certain types of clothes. They’re just so worried about saying the right thing that they sometimes don’t say anything at all. And I think, you know, when they were asking about what to do and how to approach this, the first thing that came to mind was what Hillary McBride and her Mothers Daughters and Body Image podcast which, if you haven’t, if this is a topic that concerns you, if you haven’t listened to that, please listen to that, but she pretty much hammers home that perfection, in this situation isn’t required, it’s intention and consistency that make the most difference and so you don’t have to say the right thing all the time. It’s really your intent to have the conversation behind it and just as I said, you can just be curious about when people make comments about your body you can just be curious about what your kids are saying, like, how does that feel when this happens? How do you feel about that? Did you enjoy that food? How’s your body feeling? How did you feel when Aunt Jan or Uncle Ted made that comment about me or about your body or when Gramma said that about your plate? Did you think about that at all? Like, it can just be as simple as that. Jen: The thing is if we talk about diet culture brainwashing children and us, we don’t want to be on the other end, brainwashing our kids, right? Like I want to raise critical thinkers and the way to do that, I think, is to ask them these questions and ask myself these questions and maybe and you can even process it together, right? Like that is totally OK. Annie: Yeah, but I think the key is, you know, is setting the boundaries when you’re ready and when you’re comfortable and then to keep having these conversations with your family members, with your community, with your kids, like, they’re hard conversations, they can be uncomfortable, it can be a lot of emotional ties and baggage that come along with some of these conversations but it’s worth it. It’s totally worth it and I just want to kind of wrap up by just acknowledging, again, that we’ve kind of touched on this but there’s work to be done kind of on sort of 2 levels here: at the individual level, you know, like our own selves deciding what our own biases, acknowledging those, creating awareness about our own behaviors, our own talk, you know, like, how many days, how many times a day do you talk about someone else’s body or are you reading about someone else’s body or are you listening to comments about someone else’s body? At one point in my life that consumed me. I talked about other people’s body all the time. Jen: Right or what articles are you clicking on where, you know, there’s those little like click baity ads at the bottom, “How this mom got her body back in 3 weeks” or “What this mom’s abs looked like at 4 weeks postpartum” and then the picture just like cleverly hides and you’re like, “I gotta click on this.” Lauren: That was me constantly reading about every single diet. Jen: Yeah, right, where now I just, you know, I know it’s all B.S. and I know the more we click on it, the more we are telling these marketers that we want to see more of it, right and they’ll just keep showing us more, so I’m like “Nope” and on Facebook when I see stuff like that I report it as inappropriate. Annie: So yeah, there’s definitely work to be done on an individual level, you know, our own behaviors, our shame, our conversations that we’re having and then at a community level, you know, and community can mean just in your own home, you know. That’s- Jen: Yeah, so speaking of that, I’ll just share what I’ve been up to since my holiday is that I just completed my Free To Be Talks facilitator training and I’m going to be teaching body image workshops in my children’s school and I am trained to be able to talk about this to kid boys and girls in grade 6, 7 and 8 and so that was me, that was on my vision board last year where, you know, we were doing all this work through Balance365 and I was like, “You know what? I really want to be out there in my community and I would love to start talking to children about this when they’re younger.” So I just did that training and that’s my way of contributing and being part of the conversation in my community and I would encourage anybody who is interested in that to to check out Free To Be Talks. It’s a nonprofit organization out of Vancouver, Canada but when I was on the training there was lots of women from the States on the training as well who will be doing this in their schools but you can and that’s a thing, like don’t, do not, you know, we read these stats to you guys and it’s shocking and you can sometimes feel powerless, like how can I even stop this? But you can and you can make a difference in your community and if all of us had that attitude, the change would come. Annie: I just get chills and for verklempt, like we could do this, guys,! Yes! Jen: Yes! Annie: I think that’s awesome, snaps for Jen. Jen: Thank you very much. Annie: Yeah, anything to add, Lauren? Anything you want to add before we wrap up? Lauren: No, I think you guys hit it all, I know I was just kind of a more quiet bystander, but you guys were just right in your groove and I think you guys hit it out of the park. I’ll just note that as someone who experienced secondhand dieting, and then the path that it led me down, that fuels me to be the change and not be afraid to stand up and say “Hey, this isn’t OK, we’re not going to talk about this.” Annie: Oh yeah, I think that’s, I mean, I don’t want to speak for you, Jen, but I think that’s why the three of us are in the business we’re in, we’re trying to be the change that we needed when we were younger. Jen: Yeah, totally. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Like, the voice, the message, the solution, the opportunity that we needed when we were younger and that’s, you know, how we are paying it forward, so to speak and I’m going to start crying so I’m going to stop talking. Yeah, so anyways, just to wrap up, when you’re out of your bubble this holiday season, moving into the new year, moving into summer, spring and summer, don’t be afraid to have a conversation. It doesn’t need to be confrontational, argumentative it could just be like “Hey, could we change the subject. I don’t want to talk about this when my kids are in earshot and you know, just start creating awareness and shifting the conversations that you’re having within your home and with your girlfriends and with your family can make a really, really big impact. To me, it’s, I picture waves of an ocean and you know, what one wave just kind of moves right into the other and it’s like, we just all connect to each other, eventually. Lauren: Yep. Annie: And if we’re all in the same page, if we’re all moving the same direction, we can make a really, really big impact on our own lives and more importantly, the lives of our kids so they don’t have to grow up in diet culture and negative body image and weight talk and all that junk. Jen: Yes, we do not have to normalize for them what was normalized for us. Annie: Alright, awkward ending. Lauren: As usual. Annie: You know what, that’s going to be on my topic, on my to do list today, so find a way to wrap up the podcast that’s not extremely awkward. Jen: That’s not like, “OK, bye!” Lauren: Okay, bye! Annie: No. But, alright, thanks guys. Lauren: Love you, bye! Annie: It was fun, kay, bye! Jen: Bye. Lauren: Bye. The post Setting Body Talk Boundaries Over The Holidays appeared first on Balance365.

Andrew, Aiden, Fabeku, and Jonathan are back with a surprise or two coming your way this episode. We start by catching up, and discussing the events of the past couple of months and end with some amazing questions from our listeners! Check out our past 2 episodes if you haven't yet. Full episodes and ways to connect with the skulls can be found in the links below. *EXPLICIT EPISODE ALERT* Click here to listen to the first chat by Stacking Skulls. Click here to listen to our most recent one.  If you'd like to learn more and sign-up for the Ancestral Magick Course, click here. Find the Stacking Skulls Shirts, and all other types of merch here. If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew   If you are interested in booking time with Andrew either in Toronto or by phone or Skype from anywhere click here. ANDREW: So, there are two quick things I want to share with everybody before this podcast gets going. The first being, Stacking Skulls now has shirts. That's right: they are on my website. If you go into the product section, you'll see a section for shirts. Or you can just search for Stacking Skulls and you will find them. And secondly, we spent a lot of time talking about ancestors in this course, and coincidentally, or perhaps synchronously, I am running my ancestral magic course, which is an opportunity for everybody to learn some brand new divination tools that I have created so that they can build a tighter relationship with their ancestors, either known or unknown, and start to learn to work some magic with them. So, if you're interested about that, jump over to TheHermitsLamp.com and slide over to the events page, and you'll find it. Without further ado, Stacking Skulls, my friend. [music] Welcome to the podcast, folks. Just to give you a heads up before we start: there were some technical issues with Jonathan's microphone. We've trimmed them and cut it, so it flows, but if you run into anything strange, that would be what was happening. [music] Hey world! We're back: Stacking Skulls. This is the magnificent first show of 2018 with all four of us wonderful wizards in the same place. Thanks for tuning in again. And, if you have not listened to the previous rounds of shenanigans, you may want to go back and do so, or you may want to bypass that entirely. I'll leave that in your hands. You know? But there are two previous episodes or installments of myself, Aidan Wachter, Fabeku, and Jonathan Emmett, and you know, we've gotten together a few times and talked about some things, so I'm going to kind of lead us off, though, with our kind of starting point thing, which is, like, hey folks, what's new in the last three months since we last all hung out together? JONATHAN: I had a microphone up my butt. [laughter] ANDREW: Excellent. Now, the explicit tag! JONATHAN: Next, Aidan's turn. [laughter] AIDAN: You know, this has been like the craziest three months ever. Right after we recorded the last time, my son died, and that was a really huge and transformative thing. And it's hard to describe it anyway, but...there is like a massive massive hole there and loss there, but it was also incredibly beautiful. We were able to get him home from the hospital, so that he died in his back yard, with a bunch of friends and family around. It was easily the most magical and beautiful thing that I've ever seen. And then, I had surgery. And now I'm pretty much recovered from that. And playing catch-up in the shop after those two things, and as of last night I'm now a double grandfather, as Ash's partner, Desi, just had twins last night. And they're beautiful, everybody's good! ANDREW: That's amazing. Yeah. Whenever I've gone through big losses in my life, you know, like two of my brothers died within six weeks of each other... AIDAN: Whoa. ANDREW: And, I always find myself at those times, in, like this sort of liminal space, right? You know? Like where I just sort of end up where I'm like, I feel like I'm constantly in ceremony for some period of time afterwards. And surgery does that, and, you know, I mean, for me, having kids, I don't have any grandkids, but having kids did that. Do you feel like you're still kind of in that, that kind of space? Are you like, sort of living 24/7 in there, or...? AIDAN: It's really wild, because, I think in the last episode, we talked about that I have these kind of death spirits that I've been hanging out with for a couple of years now. And in the week that I think I talked about, how they've gotten really busy, leading up into it. And so, that had become this, like, every night crazy kind of spirit initiations with these kind of hive beings that their thing is death, that I call the sisters. And so, when he, when I found out that his heart had stopped, that they had him on life support, I went in and they were totally waiting for me, and so it was very odd, cause they'd clearly been setting me up for this thing, for a couple of weeks. And so, I went straight in to go find him, where he was, kind of stuck in between, and assist from there. And so, the combination of all of that and then actually flying out, I guess two days before he was, we actually removed him from life support, and going through that process there, it's the most complete thing that's kind of a major event that's happened to me, as far as kind of fully self-contained in a way, of anything that I've ever experienced. So it's very odd, cause in many ways, I just feel really really good, you know, and I'll get hit at points, you know when I've been doing work for Desi and for his babies, there'll be these moments that are very very sad, but it's really just about, I know how much he would have liked to have watched the thing, and met them in the flesh and done that whole thing, that was really important to him, but what I feel like is this huge shift. You know, you have those moments in your life when you can feel like the cogs in the wheels of the machine are always turning, right? And to me, we're always trying to like, smooth that out and gauge where it's going and gauge what the next configuration is going to be. And this feels, in a really crazy way, like it's the smoothest kind of complete snap of things. So that's really what I have more than it being anything else. And like, just mass clarity. So there has been a huge amount of work going on, but it's really been, like there's a ton of stuff that, I don't need that anymore, I don't need to think about that any more, let's do the work to finish that piece off. About things from my childhood, and, you know, social dynamics, magical dynamics, all that stuff. There's been a lot going on, definitely. But so far, it's, you know, it's weird to say, in that situation, that everything seems really good. But it does. ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, it's certainly my experience of... Well, it's one of the reasons for the practice, right? You know? Whether that's Fabeku's The Practice, trademarked, or whether it's just having a practice, right? AIDAN: Yeah. ANDREW: I mean, you know, I think that there are... Ideally we get to these places where there's grief, there's loss, there's whatever, right? And there's the hole, and there's the absence of that person from experiences, and the feelings that come from that, right? But then there's also this capacity to be like, I find myself at various points thinking, other people seem like they feel like I should be way more upset about this... AIDAN: Yeah.... ANDREW: ...than I am, and I have this sort of very deep grounded position around it, where it's not avoidance or denial, cause it's actually almost like a hyper level of looking at it so squarely that it becomes easier to accept it, or to recognize it, and to see the ways in which that is, as you say, maybe that, the moving of the cogs, the machinery of the universe, the inevitability of some kind of fate force or, or just something that is just beyond our control at this point, either way, whether it was destiny or not, you know. AIDAN: Yeah. And I think, yeah, that in spades, and it's really interesting, because it's also, and I'm sure that all of you have had this experience, that we do all this work, kind of in these liminal states, or... ceremonial work or ritual work, not in a ceremonial magic sense necessarily, but just the work dealing with spirit, and dealing with the universe at large, what I call the field, and periodically, there are things that happen that really make you realize you haven't done your work in some places? [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: That you're like, “Oh! That smashed me!” Right? And I've had a good number of those. This was the reverse of that. This was like, I got the news about him, I went in, the allies that I work with were like, really sweet, and like, okay, you now know what we've been up to with you, let's go do it, you know? He's here, he's stuck. Let's fade him. And that's the most beautiful thing that I've ever experienced. And to me, it is, it is the, yeah, you can do money magic, you can do attraction magic, you can do whatever, but to me it's that: How is the work assisting your reality in the actual reality that you're in? ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: And this was totally solid. ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: And it remains totally solid. And I feel like at least the people that I've dealt with closely that were close to him all get that, in a way that I've never seen around someone's death before. And I think it is people who were doing the work, and who are... I have this knowledge that I've had since I was a kid, that I kind of realized what historical life expectancy of humans was, and the numbers that even got anywhere close to there, and what infant mortality rates and childhood mortality rates are, and so since I was a little kid, I've had that knowledge of that. Like, this is a totally iffy thing. You don't get to stay, and you don't get to pick when you leave, and far more leave sooner than later. You know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: And, I've had that. I was in San Francisco, at the kind of height of the AIDS wipeout there, and so that's also, I think, you know, at an early age, I lost a lot of people. And so, it was really interesting seeing this, and going like, this is the most okay I've ever been about having somebody cross over. But I think that that's really tied into the work that I've been doing for the last five or ten years. That I could actually be there with it as it was, and go, okay! This is, me, it doesn't matter what I want here, I'm irrelevant in this situation, so... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: I would help the process that's actually happening, to happen in the way that it's supposed to, you know? But yeah. That's what I've been up to. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. Well. It's affirming to hear you talk about it. Do you know what I mean? AIDAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Because, because I think that there are lots of ways in which, especially certain kinds of conversations around magic can feel sort of superficial and transitory, whereas this sort of, the deep work of, I don't know what you would call it, elevating oneself, healing oneself, harmonizing with that universal, the cogs of the universe or whatever, you know, I mean, to me that work has always been the most important work, but it is, except, you know, except when you lose a wheel, you don't notice it, right? Like there's no way to really sort of see it in action, and then when you see it, you're like, “yeah, it's so good that I practiced all that driving with three wheels, cause, one just came off, and now I can stop safely and put something else on there and see what happens next, you know?” So. AIDAN: Right. Well and I think it also syncs into that concept that kind of connects to a question that we had that, in passing, which is this kind of, there is this direct relationship in my mind from what we now are viewing, the pieces that we can see of it, anthropologically, as shamanism, right, which is this, to me, this epic chain, of shamanism and magic and sorcery and whatever you want to call it, spirit work, that goes back as far as we go back. And I think that this kind of thing is the root of it, you know, it's about... The reasons for all the kind of death mysteries are not because there's some way out of it! [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: It's just, this is a reality that is the most prevalent reality other than the birth one, right? And that's that, the wild thing about this to me is that, you know, he's gone now three months almost exactly, and his children are now here as of yesterday. And I think they're going to have a really... They have a fantastic mom, who has a fantastic network of people, and I think they're going to have really fantastic lives, and yeah, there'll be that piece that they didn't get, but he's like, he's an epic, mythic creature for anybody who kind of has watched this, it's like, and I don't know that that's a benefit or a drawback, to grow up with that! [laughs] Without getting to see some of the grungier sides of it as a kid. Yeah. But, they're going to be special people. They've got special people all around them. ANDREW: Yeah. JONATHAN: You know, I was kind of thinking, while you were talking there, it kind of makes you wonder if he had to leave so that they could be born, in a way. I mean, just, the surrounding, everything surrounding the situation of how it just kind of happened, it really was no warning of any sort or anything, I mean it just kind of happened. It just, it makes you wonder, you know? I think about weird stuff like that. But it does kind of feel like he had to go so they could be here. You know, it's kind of a change of energy or exchange of... the... AIDAN: Mmmhmm. No, I totally, you know, it's one of those things that again, we never get to have those answers in any… JONATHAN: Right. AIDAN: …definable way, but the thing that I saw, through the time that I was out there when he was in the hospital and then when we brought him home, and had, I don't know, there must have been 20 or more of us in the back yard with him... …Was, you could see the transformation happening on all of those people. While it was happening, I was like, either you could see that there was a way in which this thing was a huge gift to all those people, to see someone's death happening and it being processed by the people close to them into my mind, the most beautiful way that you could hope for, you know? JONATHAN: When I was 12, I think I was 12, I was pretty young, anyway, my grandfather, loved this man dearly, he was just one of the coolest guys in the world. He taught shop in east Wichita, in, you know, some of the toughest parts of town, and he was Native American to top it off, so you know he probably didn't get treated very well, but he was just such a good man, it was hard for me to let him go, but… I was 12, and he had a death rattle, and I don't know if people are familiar with... It's not the worst thing in the world, but it's not pretty to listen to... And I remember my parents left, and I was just there in the room with him by myself, and our preacher at the time, she wasn't really a preacher, more of a spiritual leader, came by and we were talking, and he started having the death rattle again, and she went to get a nurse and he died. And that was my first experience with death, at such a young age, and it was... It didn't devastate me, like, "oh, I saw somebody die, now my world's over," it was just, it was kind of fascinating, but you know, it broke my heart, because it was my grandfather. So, I kind of understand that, I mean, it's an interesting process to watch someone actually leave [static] you know and that was [static] on several... AIDAN: You're breaking up... ANDREW: Yeah, turn off, your microphone's suffering from what you've done to it, it's going in and out, my friend. JONATHAN: Is it? I broke it. AIDAN: In and out! I see how it is. JONATHAN: How's that? [laughs] ANDREW: It's good. JONATHAN: So, I should keep my microphone out of my butt. Anyway... ANDREW: Let's [laughs], on the segue of Jonathan's problematic microphones, what's going on with you, Fabeku? FABEKU: Yeah, it was... it's been kind of an interesting few months, you know, it was holiday stuff, and you know, weird, I'm not, I don't love holidays anyway, but this one was a little weird. You know, my mom's getting older, and has some health stuff going on and that's been...not so great, and with that, there's some weird cognitive stuff that's starting to happen, and I think it's interesting, cause I was relating in a different way to what Aidan was talking about with... You know, it's been interesting to kind of look at that cycle of her, she's in her eighties, and, you know, kind of getting to that phase where things are becoming kind of difficult and problematic, and it's interesting, kind of watching the other people around her, and kind of their stuff that's happening with that, and you know, the kind of the... the sadness, which I get, but kind of the panic and the fear and the weirdness and that kind of thing... Had a chance to talk with her a little bit in the busyness of the holidays, just kind of where she's at, and it was interesting, like she, she mostly felt okay with things, until everybody started freaking out, and then she got kind of fucked up and worried about it, and you know, so we talked a little bit about that, kind of managing other people's shit, and you know, we talked about ancestor stuff, and it's interesting, cause she, I mean, her background couldn't be any more different than mine in some ways. She grew up in a super religious Pentecostal home and music was "of the devil" and, you know, all of that kind of stuff, so, we have pretty different philosophical takes on things, but, yeah. We, it was a good conversation, we got to talk about the ancestors and kind of crossing in a good way and being met by the ancestors and you know, I, we talked about kind of my practices with that a little bit, and I asked if she was all right with me kind of working with the ancestors to, you know, kind of do what they need to do so when it's her time, you know, it can be as smooth of a transition as possible and, you know, it's again, like this is, it's a weird conversation to have with somebody. But to me, like we've been talking about, this is why we do this work, you know, I'm all for money magic, I'm all for all of this other stuff, that's fantastic, and, you know, when there's giant life shit like this, yeah, these are the moments when I feel really super grateful that we do what we do, and we have this stuff available to us. You know for me, it, I was thinking about this a few days ago, how these practices become, at least for me, these shock absorbers. You know? It's not that it prevents shit from happening, but when it happens, it allows us to stay more oriented and more coherent than we would be otherwise, and, you know, then if that extends out to the people around us, then we can help them get or maintain a better sense of coherence and orientation, and that's a pretty remarkable thing, to me. ANDREW: I think it's such a significant point of view, right? Because so many people lose faith because they do stuff, religiously or spiritually or magically or whatever, and then some life thing comes along and they're like, “why did this not get prevented?” Right? You know? And then they falter because of that, right? You know? Like I remember, a day and a half before my second brother passed away, I was divining with the Orishas, right? And I came on this really bad sign, right? Basically, a sign of unexpected things and tragedies that shake your whole world all the way down to your foundations, right? And so, I did what I do when stuff like that shows up. I basically called all the people who are important, you know? And I knew that he was going through a hard time, and so I called him, and I was like, "dude, come to my house, come over here, you know, I know you're out doing whatever, but, like, come over here, you know, after work, come over here, I'll come pick you up, come over here," right? And he decided not to, you know? And then that, ultimately, that decision that he made led to his passing, you know? And you know, there are these flags that I think that are there that warned that something's coming, right? You know? Like, gird your loins, put on your armor, get ready, shit's going to get shaken up, but it's rarely ever as clear cut as anything else, and to me that doesn't diminish my faith in these processes, because the warnings and the advices of that reading carried me through that time in a way that I could have been, it could have been so much worse for me, without that, you know? So. Yeah. AIDAN: Yeah. It was interesting, when I went out to Athens, I took out a deck of cards that I had just got and decided I was going to take that with me, to be my thing, and I'm not a big diviner, I don't, if I do a reading a week, that's a lot for me. And, as I was moving through, whether this was on the plane, or off by myself getting dinner at some point, and there was a sum process coming up, I would ask the cards to show me what would help me. ANDREW: Hmm. AIDAN: It would give me these readings that I would interpret in some particular way, at that moment, and I would invariably be completely wrong, but having that information in my head, and expecting things to go a particular way, was like the most perfect "assistance" I could ever get, which was what I basically had asked for. I didn't say, "what's actually going on?", I said, you know, "what should I have in my head, or in my mind, going into this situation," and they would give me something, and that was an incredibly useful tool, it was very, it wasn't accurate to what events actually happened, but it was totally dead accurate to what attitude I should approach each of those situations with. And so, I do think it's very interesting, that, I talk a lot about the biggest issue with magic is our kind of limited perceptual abilities. It's like... And when we're first starting out, that can seem like we're totally disabled until you kind of figure out how it works for you, you know. But I totally see that side of it. It's becoming more able to communicate or understand communication, even if it's not perfect. FABEKU: Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. I think that, you know, I, to me, that goes along with this thing that, cause I, I do divine a lot, like that's kind of one of my things, and I think since starting that, well, since starting it and fucking up a lot and misunderstanding and misapplying things, since then, my thing has been, how do I continue to expand my bandwidth for this connection and this communication, whatever it is, particularly around blind spots, things I don't want to see, difficult news, outcomes that aren't what I want, you know, times that I've misunderstood something and then shit goes totally sideways from that, you know, how do I expand my ability to stay connected and stay in communication when those things are happening? Because to me that's when it really matters, right? I think that… AIDAN: Yeah, absolutely. FABEKU: You know, if just suddenly, if we use that bandwidth and it goes dark, what then? So, for me, it's, you know, how do we, how do we keep that capacity as full and accessible as we can, when we really need it? You know. I think that's, it's not easy, but I think that's pretty critically important work. AIDAN: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, that's kind of, you know, I used to do a lot of readings about life and the future and whatever, and I still do when I'm planning and stuff like that, but, like, my regular readings, which are like, maybe two or three times a week these days, are: How do I keep myself in the zone? How do I get back to the zone? How do I move out of this sort of out of sorts-ness that I'm feeling back to being centered and grounded and aligned? You know? AIDAN: Yeah! ANDREW: And that's like, essentially the question, as much as there is a question, right? That's the question, and that's always the question. It's not really about anything else or anybody else or whatever, it's like, what do I do internally, to, you know, to be in, like, full on mode today, or as close to full on mode as possible, you know? AIDAN: Mmmhmm. FABEKU: Yeah. I get that. I like that, that idea of, you know, what do I need to do to stay aligned? And I think that's the thing, I think a lot of times it does come down to asking better questions, right? Because I think probably the last significant experience I had with that, about a year and a half ago, I had surgery, and, it was supposed to be, kind of a not, I mean kind of a big deal but not a big deal, and, you know, before I did some divinations with it, a couple of people did some divinations for me, everything was fine, all good, in and out, easy peasy, don't sweat it— That's not at all how it went, right? Everything that could have gone wrong did, and then some, and it was crazy. It was, it went sideways in ways that really could have been incredibly catastrophic beyond what it was, and as I was in the hospital thinking about this, you know, I think it could have been easy to, like you said, Andrew, get pissed or kind of lose faith, that wait, I read this, and other people read this, and everything was supposed to be fine, and I almost fucking died, like what's the deal? ANDREW: Yeah. FABEKU: But instead where I landed with this is, what if I had asked different questions? What if I had asked better questions? Instead of, you know, "what's the outcome of the surgery?" but instead like you're saying, "how do I navigate this?” You know, “what do I need to do to move through this in an aligned way?" That would have been a different thing, and I think it would have been infinitely more useful to me, in that moment, than the questions that I had asked on the front end, because I was super anxious about it, and so I think that led me to asking questions that were, I think, reasonable, but probably not the smartest and most helpful questions that I could have asked. ANDREW: The "tell me it's all going to be okay" reading… FABEKU: For sure, absolutely. ANDREW: ...Is 100 percent human and like we all do it, right? Like, but yeah, there's a lot more to kind of say, than that, maybe? And, I also think though, like, you know, when you, one of the things that happens when you divine, with, like, the Orishas and stuff is, in many situations we ask if the reading is closed now, are we done, right? But we don't say, like, is this perfect? You know, we don't say whatever. We say a phrase that essentially translates to "has everything that needs to be said been said?" Right? Or "has everything that can be said been said?" Right? And it's like, that's it, right? Did we miss anything? No, we covered it all? Okay. And then beyond that, it's inherently not part of the conversation or it couldn't have been part of the conversation, you know, and that's an awkward thing to accept in the beginning for people, I think, right? FABEKU: For sure. ANDREW: They want perfection of their spirit. FABEKU: Yeah. AIDAN: I think it also sinks in, there's a, I think it's at the end of Njáls saga, there's this really incredibly graphic vision of the Valkyries as the weavers of fate, and they're weaving in bloody intestines, with like a head as the weight, and spears as the shuttle rods, and beating it with spears, and this is after this whole book of lots of really violent death. And one of the things that I got from that was that they're really saying like, you know, our obsession with fate as humans is always about the survival of the body. We try and, you know, unless we really move to somewhere else, and they were basically saying, this is all blood and guts, here in the body. This is where it goes for everybody, right? And so, I do think that that approach that both would be given that you were talking about Andrew is, it's what I'm learning with divination, is, that's where I get good help, is: “Yeah, show me the face that I would put forward to walk through this next room?” ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: And I get really good information that's hard to describe, but, oh, yeah, I know that guy, right? You get used to your visitors in the cards, and you go, I know that guy, I know who I am when I'm that guy, and so I can try and approach this, like...that guy. Or I can look for that woman. Like who's fulfilling that role? And then I'll listen to them. You know, it's usually, it's very frequently that the cards tell me that I should pay attention to the next thing that my wife says more than I might want to. [laughter] ANDREW: That's the challenge of living with an oracle, right? AIDAN: [laughs] Absolutely! ANDREW: Yeah. FABEKU: Well, and I think what's interesting about the conversation is that when we move to the place where we're asking questions that are beyond our own sort of vantage point or unlimited concerns, and I think we open it up to get answers that not only come from that place but that can move us past those places, right? If my focus is only, “okay, tell me everything's going to be okay,” that's a very brief and kind of limited conversation. But, “how do I navigate this?” That moves me past that, and I think it makes us available to the inside perspective, ideas, whatever it is, that we're not going to get if we're asking those questions that are more limited and kind of in the box. ANDREW: Yep. Well, and let's be honest, from the point of view of the universe, the sun going supernova is okay, right? FABEKU: [laughing] Exactly! ANDREW: It's all okay, there are other suns, there are other universes, there are other whatever... FABEKU: Right. Yeah. AIDAN: When I was going through a super rough spot, about ten years ago, my mom sent me a card that I always loved that said "everything will be okay in the end; if it's not okay, it's not the end!" [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: I mean totally, like yeah, it's okay, you knew you weren't going to stay here, so what's the issue? ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Absolutely. Well, you know, it's interesting, I mean, so, in thinking about what I might want to share about kind of what's been going on for me in the last stretch of time, it's interesting how thematic it all is, right? So, one of the big things of my last year, was my mom had surgery, she had her hip replaced back in August, and then she, three days later, fell and shattered her femur, right? And so, in December, she went home after spending four and a half or five months or whatever it was in various facilities kind of getting tuned up, you know? And, so it's been this journey of like watching her go through these things and, you know, watching her go through these things, where it's like, you know, she's no spring chicken, she's my mom, so she's got a few years on me, and it's like, this could be the end, this could be the moment, right, and kind of as we were talking about sitting with that squarely and trying to look at the real reality of these situations… So, you know, that's been going on, and then the other thing that has been sort of flowing with me a lot, is you know, Saturn and its retrogrades, and its switching into Capricorn, and all of this astrological energy that's been going on has been something that I've been really feeling intensely. You know, I mean, over the last while, for sure, being a Sagittarius, and you know, it's now left my sign and so on, but also, this transition to Capricorn, whereas other times I've been like, “aaah, I don't like you Saturn, you've fucked me a lot,” this time I was like, you know what, I was listening to, I think it was Austin Coppock and Gordon White talk about it, and he was just like, throwing out lists of things that are positive in this kind of placement stuff. And he talked about, like, the dead, and stuff, and I was like, yeah, that's really where I need to kind of sit with my energy, you know, and step more into working with that and living with that and feeling that, you know? And it's just very, it's a carry-over of all of these things we've been talking about, right? It's kind of taking ownership of my relationship with the dead and with death itself, but with the dead more so, and how foreign that is to kind of almost anybody else that I know, you know what I mean, like, even people I know who are mediums, I feel like, I feel like often it's not quite the same. You know, I was writing about it one time, a while ago, and I was like, what is a good word for the magic that comes from a deep love and devotion to the dead, and from their reciprocal love that comes from there? You know, and I don't have a good word for that, but, you know, there's just something very particular about what's going on these days. Later today, as part of kind of culminating a work that I started at that transition of Saturn into Capricorn, I'm going to sort of finish making the shrine pieces that I started consecrating then, so that I can continue to do this work and stuff, but it's very apropos of this conversation, right? This sort of life and real like life and death stuff, right? You know, and, kind of like our conversation, I might go to this work for prosperity and I might go to this work for other things, but it's really about living continuously in some form of connection and awareness of that mystery, and sort of constantly honoring that mystery, cause ultimately it's one we'll all be initiated into, but yet it can also be such a source of power and life while we're alive, too. So. AIDAN: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah. FABEKU: Yeah, you know, as you're talking about that, it reminds me, and I feel this a lot, and I don't think I had words for it until I just heard you talk about what you did, but when I'm doing magic, especially certain kinds, again, especially work with the ancestors, there's this intimacy to it, right? It's like it feels like there's this very direct, intimate, uniquely personal at the same time kind of big and cosmic intimacy that's happening through this interface, right? It's like this direct interaction with these things that are really at the core of being human. Again sure, you know, money, sex, relationships, attraction, all of that, human, right, but if you strip all of that away, the end of it, there's life and there's death and there's love. Right? That's what's there. And when we're engaged in these practices where we're working at that foundational level, there's this incredible profound intimacy to it that I think is pretty remarkable. Yeah, and I don't think I had the words for that until I just listened to you talk, Andrew. AIDAN: That's one of those... And that's an interesting thing, I was doing work with Fabeku the last two years, where this thing, this kind of connection with the dead and communion with the dead and being a part of this structure of these, like the creatures that I, or the beings that I met, the allies, the sisters. Where the thing that happened right before Ash died was that they basically brought me into their thing, like they really are, I don't know if I have a better description, they're a collective, but I think of them as like hive beings. And, when they brought me in, the thing that was so interesting was that from their perspective, how beautiful this stuff is, that they're like, “yeah, you guys do this other thing, in between when you're dead,” but it's this transition in and out of when you're dead that has got all of this potency and all of this beauty and where you don't have all of the, this kind of weight of inculturation on you… ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: ... was how I interpreted how they were kind of running through me. And I think that that has to have been a more normal perspective that somehow, we kind of, and maybe this is just as we kind of figured out how to not lose half of the children or something, you know, and we're raising an expectation that barring something weird, you make it to a reasonable age or something. My sense is that if you're in a whatever kind of hunter-gatherer tribal thing, that vision of death has to be so different than the one that we carry now in 2017 America, and that's a bit of what I've felt has been going on with me the last couple of years as well, has been this really strong connection to this, like this is the, it's a thing I don't think I could teach much about, you know, but... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. AIDAN: ...it's the most important aspect of what I do, I think, is like... ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: I go into and spend time in, and they show me all these things that I genuinely have no words for, but that are really natural normal things. Yeah, it's fascinating. ANDREW: I had this dream, oh, maybe six months ago, where I was up on this high mountain range, like maybe in the Himalayas or somewhere, and I was in a graveyard, and there were these three eternal beings that were there. And I was there because, in the dream, because I wanted to be initiated into their mystery and under- and know what they know. And they basically said, “well, you've come all this way, all you have to do is give us the sacrifice, and we'll initiate you.” And then, what they asked me for was to surrender everything that I have ever known, or everything that I knew, and get rid of it. And then they would welcome me into their mysteries. And in the dream, I reached into my body and drew out this little blue box that was the sum total of all of my knowledge and knowing, and I gave it to them, or put it on the earth, and they accepted it and then proceeded into the dream further, so. I think that there are these really, places that inherently transcend our knowing, right? Or at least our knowing in a conventional sense, for sure. Well, so, we did as we usually do--oh hey! [musical entrance] AIDAN: Streaker! JEN: Hey! [laughter] JONATHAN: That felt dirty. ANDREW: So, for those people listening-- JONATHAN: Put your clothes on, Jen! ANDREW: We were chatting and joking around in the chat room about Jen streaking through our performance here, and I thought, how funny would it be, to have Jen just jump in for a minute. So, hey Jen, what's going on? JEN: Hey! FABEKU: Hey, Jen! Holy shit. JEN: Yeah... AIDAN: Awesome to see you. JEN: Good to see you guys too. ANDREW: Yeah! So, we've just been talking about death and super heavy stuff for like a long time, so what's going on, what have you got, you were going to bring a question in. JEN: Well, there was one question I had for Aidan. It started on his little request for questions, but it was about, like any advice or stories working with plant or animal allies. I see a lot of things sort of being appropriated of, you know, my spirit animal is this, my power animal is that, and it makes me wonder, like, you know, did you choose that because you happened to like that animal, or what? you know and so maybe just stories about your experiences with this way of working. AIDAN: Mmmhmm. Well I have two that are kind of relevant, and the first one is from a long time ago. And my girlfriend and I were up at Mount Shasta where many weird things have happened for me, and this was early on in my meditation practice and I was probably, I think I was 20. And it was super beautiful, we were up in the meadow up on the mountain, and I just went and found a rock out in the sun and sat down. It was sitting kind of like, this was before I could sit full lotus, so somehow crosslegged with my hands on my knees, and I'm sitting there, and I space out, and I can feel like this pull, in like two totally different directions, I've got my eyes closed, and I couldn't kind of translate what was up about this pull in two different directions and what, when I opened my eyes, I looked down, and one of my hands, and I don't remember which one any more, has like five of these big blue butterflies on it, and the other one has maybe 25 flies on it. There's like no cross-mingling. They're not doing anything. They're just hanging out. And I must have spent a half hour with them and they never switched places and nobody ever left until I was gone. And they were, all of the other butterflies that you could see were collecting all the salt and sweat off my skin, I couldn't really tell what the flies were doing. And I've never known anything other than that, it was just, this was this thing that happened. And it was one of those events that changed things, as most of the Shasta events did for me. And then, I think, I don't know, I mean, I laugh at my spirit at the kind of idea of spirit animals because my deep ties into non-asatru kind of freaky shamanic Odin stuff have me always and always have had me working with wolves and ravens. Which are like, super cool, right? And so you go, that's just bullshit, if I was viewing them as power animals. But as you know, cause you've got the book, there are these forms that I've learned over time to shift into in the trance world, and they just allow me to have different perceptions of what's going on. And so, that's my main experience with it is that I have these shapes that I can shift into, that like if I'm getting freaked out by something, if I move into the kind of raven shape, its perspective of what's going on is utterly different than mine. It doesn't have this human view, it doesn't have human concerns, and the same thing with that kind of wolf form, and this has kind of been breeding a lot in the last year or so, where, I'm not necessarily anything like a human now when I'm in the other spaces. And it just allows a lot of freedom that is lacking other times. But I don't have, yeah, the whole idea of the spirit animal thing, I don't really get that, I don't know what that is. But I think you can work with those shapes or at least I can work with those shapes. In ways that are very beneficial. ANDREW: I don't really, I mean I also don't really work with animals in that kind of way, or maybe I do and just my way of talking about it doesn't line up so that I recognize what other people are talking about as being the same but maybe it is the same. But you know for me there are these things that happen that are really significant, you know, and so I was out in the woods and this albino turkey came out of the woods. Completely white, right? And like it came out, it hung out, and we were like sort of five feet from each other and we sort of had this exchange where aside from where I was like, "holy shit, this is a really weird bird, what is going on here?", once I settled in and figured out what it was... 'Cause it was really big, right? Turkeys are not small animals, right? Especially later in the summer, right? And I was just like, oh, what's going on, and so I connected with that very intensely and then there was another time when I saw an albino porcupine and that was very intense, and then the only thing that ever sort of segues into me feeling sort of more a lasting connection with them versus sort of like a message connection is, I had this dream that everybody was freaking out because there were fishers in the woods, which are these sort of wild and ferocious animals, you know, they're known for like eating cats and other stuff and are considered fairly dangerous. They're sort of the honey badgers of our part of the world, right? JEN: [laughs] ANDREW: And in the dream, I was like, don't worry, they won't bother me, and I went out and I just sat down and this albino fisher came out of the woods and curled up in my lap and sat there and we just hung out. And then a few weeks later, somebody who knew nothing about the dream gave me a fisher skull, and so, it's one of the few skulls that I keep around to stack. But you know... AIDAN: [laughs] ANDREW: But even that became part of work that I do with another spirit, which is actually the spirit of a person who has passed on and it's sort of, there's a connection there, it's sort of an avatar of that person, as opposed to necessarily being the animal in and of itself, so. JONATHAN: I actually got my spirit animal from a-- can you guys here me now? ALL: Yeah. JONATHAN: I actually got my-- I was named, and was told at the time what my spirit animal was, by a Lakota Sioux medicine woman. So that's my lineage on that, and I've had that verified by people that didn't know me, later in life, of the total number of people that I walk with, the spirit that I walk with, and the animals that are around, so I kind of believe what she says, you know. I work with him a lot, and not really, kind of like what Aidan was saying, really ask him to do things or handle things for me that I can't, or that I don't know how to handle. Or to work with me on shapeshifting and stuff like that; however, ironically, I laughed when Aidan said wolves and ravens, 'cause I do the same thing with both wolves and ravens, is I do a lot of shapeshifting with ravens because of their perspective is higher than mine, so I can see it from a different level. And it's just fucking fun, so, that's just kind of my, that's how I've always kind of worked with animals, it wasn't really so much as they guiding me but kind of just walking together, now, just kind of living life and learning from them, 'cause they have so much information, if people can actually just do it. [laughs] Did you know that wolves can talk? [?] Oh yeah! [?] Hey my door's knocking, hold on. JEN: [laughing] Maybe it's a wolf! ALL: [laughing] JONATHAN: Probably should, tell me to get off the phone... [?] Albino porcupine, you keep your distance! JEN: Right? FABEKU: So, you know, I guess what I would add to it, I think, I get what you mean, Jon, when you're saying things get a little appropriated at times. I think really what I would say, this to me goes to the necessity to do our work and to deal with our own shit, I think in any of these practices, 'cause, I think for me, some of the pieces that feel problematic around this, they're, when I hear people talk about it, it feels very utilitarian in a way that the element of relationship seems missing, right? It's kind of like the way people would talk about a tool. Like, you know, I'm gonna do this with a hammer and I'm gonna do this with my spirit animal, and I get that, and I mean listen, people start where they start and it's fine but I think that you know, for me, it becomes problematic when we look at these things as tools or objects, right? Like for me it really is like, where's the relationship? how do I more clearly relate to them? And I feel like if we relate to them as things or tools then I think at best it's a really limited thing and at worst it's probably I think it moves us into almost working with some kind of distortion or echo of the actual thing, right, because we're not really, there's not a clear and real relationship happening, so I think the utilitarian thing is weird and I think the other element of doing the work is, you know, I think that, I know a lot of people that have come to these practices as ways of filling holes in themselves, and maybe not so consciously, so the fact that everybody seems to have an eagle as a totem, and kind of the same way that like in a past life everybody was a king or a queen or whatever the fuck. It's like yeah, probably not... JEN: Cleopatra, usually, always good! FABEKU: So I think, it's like... ANDREW: Jonathan Emmett was the one true Cleopatra, so we know that everyone else... FABEKU: That's been covered, right? But I think the thing is that if we don't deal with those gaps and those holes and that shadow and that pain and we end up filling them with things that are probably not accurate or not really there, and then we start basing a whole lot of shit on top of it, and to me that stuff becomes really problematic. So, this, really I guess my contribution would be, you know I think we just have to be conscious of and then clean up our own shit before we drag it into the practice and then start mistaking that for some kind of spiritual or magical reality that it probably is not. So. ANDREW: Yeah. And once we've built some structure up then it's really hard to knock that down. FABEKU: For sure, yeah. ANDREW: ...work at it, right? And so. But. Yeah. AIDAN: Yeah, I think that, that's kind of, to me, if you're working with kind of a spirit view and a spirit world, for me the biggest thing was to just slow the fuck down and like go, okay, if I've got somebody that's talking to me, that's good, I don't need to go hunting for sombody else and I can see, will this person talk to me about other things, or will they introduce me to other things? So even like in the, in my, the main zone that I go to when I'm doing trance work, the allies are like, the first allies that I met are like intermediaries, and they're like, there's stuff that doesn't move around and so, if you don't go to where they are, it doesn't matter how much you call to them, and so if I roll in, and I get the ally that's not being particularly helpful but that's hanging out, it's like, okay, would you like to take me somewhere else? And they're like, finally, dumbass! And then I can follow them and they'll be like, "go into the scary fucking cave," or whatever it is that's going on. And that's the , but that's about time, and depth, but I do think that there's the, or even the idea that I'm going to travel through different space and ask to meet the allies there, that might take a long time. There's a space that I go into now, that's finally opening up, and it's like, this has an animal in it, I forgot about it, and there's this big-assed elk thing, that could give a fuck and a rat's ass about me, and I show up, and it just looks annoyed, like, oh, it's you again. It's like dude, whatever, if you want to open this up a little bit, that'd be cool, and it's like, not now, later. ANDREW: Yeah. AIDAN: And that to me is the stuff that I get, we've talked about this a little bit before on here, with the four of us, is, if it's all running super smooth and like clockwork, it's probably not super real, Or, there's [inaudible] that's creating myths, 'cause to me, it's like, it just doesn't go that way! And I could be fucked up, I could just be a mess, and... JEN: Well something that motivated my question was in northern California around 2010 I went to a find your power animal workshop, which was a lot of drum trance journeys and when we went in, to find our power animals, I got buried in ivy for 15 minutes, there was nothing, and everybody was having these stories and they were like, yeah, and then this elephant took me to the bottom of the ocean, and a squirrel, and then landed on the back of a tiger, and then we had this unicorn that was in space, and it was like, uh, I was buried in an ivy, with nothing, and they're like you have a power plant! And I was like okay, power plants, and every other journey I was actually working with plant allies and not animals, and I was the only person there, and I was like, and lots of intense things were happening, but it wasn't an animal, it was like, and it surprised me, because everyone had these fantastic creatures, and it was like " I just got the plant kingdom," you know. [cross-talking] FABEKU: What I think's interseting about that, and this is when I talk about, and I talk about it more of like allies or the others, right, because I think that like, the languaging, and we were talking about this earlier in the conversation about the kind of the questions that we bring to divination, like, this is where language becomes problematic, right, because people usually talk about power animals or whatever it is, fine, but there's a million other options for allies, right? Plants, stones, weird alien creatures, that as far as I can tell aren't here, and but when I've had conversations like that with people, sometimes they act really surprised, like what do you mean, there's a plant person that you work with, or a stone person, there are animals! And it's like well, okay, AND... ANDREW: Can't go wrong with a magic space pickle! FABEKU: There we go! I claim that as my ally, the magic space pickle, right? But... ANDREW: Yep. FABEKU: I get that, I think that sometimes we create these kind of needless and unhelpful limitations that really shape our experience because of what we bring to it that okay, I'm going to go meet an ally, and they said power animal so it has to be a power animal, I think that, I don't love that, I think that that stuff gets us super sideways, so when we end up with ivy, we think, what the fuck is happening, right? Like it's somehow a problem that it's really not, so. ANDREW: Yeah. And really like, you know, what if it's burdock, or what if it's, you know, plantain, or what if it's like, some other sort of amazing magical plant that's in your neighborhood that's like the weeds that grow in the driveway in the lane weights, right? That doesn't mean that it's not profound and magical and powerful and a lot of the plants that I work with are, if they're not Afri-Cuban stuff that I'm working with for part of my religious practice, they're predominantly things that grow here or that I grow myself and you know, there's, to me there's some of the most wonderful magic is like being able to go out in my back yard here at the shop and be like, yup, a bit of this, a bit of that, pull this guy's roots, go down to the ravine, dig up a litle of this, grab this out of the swampy spot and next thing you know you've got something good, and I mean I think that there's such a, and not an origin, but there's such a cult around like, mandrake, and like all these sort of, the witch herbs, and I'm like, those don't grow here, those aren't my plants, those aren't part of my orbit, you know, and I remember not so much in recent times but like when I was getting going, kind of having some feels about some of these things that everybody else was doing and working with and I'm like, nah, I don't think so, I think I'm gonna work with the basil some more, I think that plant's really kicking it up for me, and it's like, you know, it doesn't have to be everything else either, right? And ivy's great, right? That stuff overcomes everything, right? That'll rip your bricks apart if you allow it to go too far, right? That's pretty strong. FABEKU: One of my favorite magical plants is kudzu, love it. Never met it until I moved to North Carolina, it was all over the fucking place, and I was totally taken by it. We were driving down the road and I was like, what is that? and the person that we were with was like, "Oh, fuck, it's kudzu, it's terrible, it's this," and I'm like, no, there's something to that plant, and I literally wanted to stop on the side of the road and walk over and just touch the plant to figure out what the fuck was going on. I super dig kudzu for magic stuff. Super dig it. And, I think to get to that place that you're talking about, Andrew, I think that this goes back to we have to clean up our shit, irght? Like if we don't feel like enough and we feel like it has to be big and weird and exotic and flashy, we're not gonna say, I'm working with kudzu! It's gonna have to be mandrake or you know, whatever it is, and so again, like you said, not that those aren't powerful, but if we're led there because there's coherence, cool. If we're led there because we're trying to fill a hole, and mandrake feels like an easier plug for it than dandelion, not great. Right? And I can't believe we're conna end up kind of skewed and sideways as a result of it. and, not only that, but missing some really powerful that otherwise, we could build relationships with these allies and do some pretty amazing work with them, so. AIDAN: I think that that sinks in really kind of beautifully to, yeah, it's like we're enculturated to all sorts of things, just as the nature of being social humans, and so, for some people that's, you know you know, I guess, you know that you are meant to be with the head cheerleader from the time you enter sixth grade, and you know that you are going to have this particular life, which shuts down all of these options, right? And this happens in spiritual practice all the time too. This is to me the kind of beauty of chaos magic and also where it goes horribly awry, is to me the idea of chaos magic is like, you don't have to know where this is going. You don't have to be looking at what happened in the 1800s or in the 1500s or in 900s or in the written record. If this is a natural practice, which is why I dislike the term occultism--occultism seems to me to always be kind of referencing things that are hidden, when I think most of it's like shit that we just forgot how to do. Nobody hid it. But yeah, and then there's just all of this possibility. The most powerful thing that I've been given is this weird little nine sentence charm that changes all the time, and it's peculiar, and it sounds really really witchy, but it's also so retardedly, "The Craft," or something. JEN: Oh my gosh, I want you to say it... AIDAN: I can't take it seriously, right? JEN: [laughing] AIDAN: But it does this beautiful thing, and it's like a joke, I think, from my allies, like they've given me this coded language, like this is how you get from here to here, and every time I go to do it, I'm like, this is so silly, it's like, and it's being open to this stuff, and realizing that these are language systems that we're overlaying upon experience that's not happening in the body in the normal sense, and so doesn't really exist. And so yeah, you go into the other world and you meet the space pickle, why not? Who... You don't think that that didn't happen to somebody before, just because it isn't written down? We've been here for a long fucking time, somebody has had serious relationships with the spirits before. There is no doubt. ANDREW: Lucky, lucky somebodies! JEN: Head cheerleaders! AIDAN: And it's probably Jon... ANDREW: Uh-huh. [laughter] FABEKU: When in doubt... AIDAN: Nice! [laughs] ANDREW: Cool. JEN: Well, thanks for letting me crash your party for a minute; I'll... ANDREW: Thanks for jumping in, Jen! AIDAN: That was awesome! JEN: I'll end my streak now. And let you get back to it... [?]: Whew.... JEN: See you guys later! ANDREW: See ya! AIDAN: See ya! ANDREW: All right, so we have this list of questions here; I feel like some of them we've already kind of touched on. You know, I mean, yeah. So, I guess, KJ Sassypants wants to know, what's the weirdest or wackiest thing that's ever happened to you in a magical or shamanic context? I'm afraid to ask Jon... [laughter] ANDREW: Anyone got anything that you'd like to share? We can't hear you, Jon. Jon, I see you talking, but I don't hear you. [laughter] FABEKU: While he sorts that out, yes, weird, god, where do I start, shit! So, a couple of weeks ago, I did some like hunting tracking magic stuff, right? It was very specifically like had my eyes focused on a very specific target, and -- so for me, after I do work, I'm usually paying attention to , you know, just what's happening in th world, sort of looking for omens and signs and confirmations and things-- and I was sitting at the window, with the cat, looking out, and, all of a sudden... So there's this family of hawks that lives maybe 100 yards across the street-- This was just within a couple of days of doing the magic-- All of a sudden, out of the tree, like a fucking bullet, this hawk flies out and catches some small bird mid-flight and literally rams it into the window that I'm sitting in front of and then flies off back to the tree, right, and I'm like, well, you know, as far as omens for hunting magic go, that's sort of terrifying and pretty rad at the same time, so, um yeah, it's probably not the weirdest, but the most recent bit of weirdness, that's for sure, so. ANDREW: I -- I can't hear you now. AIDAN: Try, Jon. You got it! You're good! JON: That was it? AIDAN: You're good! You got it! JON: Can you hear me now? ALL: Yeah. JON: Okay, was that the question about the paranormal, when I said could I use the paranormal reference? ANDREW: Sure! Use whatever you got! JON: Okay. So the weirdest probably thing, I was doing a reading on a house in Carthage and we've had -- hi, kitty -- we've had some instance of a pretty dark entity -- I don't like to use demonic because I think that's a bad word, and I think it's wrong -- more of just probably not ever human, type entity, anyway. So, we're doing an investigation one night, and we had a group there doing a tour, and I spotted this entity, 'cause it likes to hang out on the stairwell, and, so I'm trying to coax it down and to come talk to me, like I wanted to get it to talk-- well, it did. And pretty much threw me for a loop for about, I don't know, six months. To where I was a little bit off my rocker for about six months. And honestly, the you know I, it engulfed the upper part of my body, to where a person two foot away from me couldn't see me from the waist up. And, I still couldn't tell you what it was. I can tell you that it never was alive, I know that for a fact, I know that it was never in corporeal form of any sort, but yeah, I walked out of the house, I had to get away for a little bit, when it lifted, and I was freed from it, for lack of a better word, I walked outside, and I sat down on the ground, and I tried to ground as best I could ground, but I was not entirely in my body for at least 30 minutes there, but mentally it was a trip for probably about six months. So, it was a little bit of an interesting deal, but what brought me back into my body was kind of a funny story was, there's these big, not cedar trees, juniper trees in the front yard, they're huge, and I put my hand up on the juniper tree and an ant bit me, and that popped me back into my cells, so it was kind of an interesting, interesting ordeal. But yeah, I still couldn't tell you what that thing was. But I'd like to go back and work with it, but the last couple times I've been there, he hasn't shown up. So. ANDREW: Maybe it's following you around, Jon. JON: Boring ass-- ANDREW: What's that behind you? [laughter] JON: No, that's a cat! [laughter] Probably. ANDREW: I mean, so many things, but like, one of the things that I often do is like, if I'm doing certain kinds of cleansings for people, I'll take the tools and pieces that I've used in the cleansing, and I'll take them into the ravine system here, you know, and there are spots where I dispose of that stuff so the spirits that are there, and the earth that's there can just take that back and it can go away, and not just pass on to anybody else, and so, it was frozen, like stuff was frozen when I was there, right? And it was sort of, freezing rain and snow was coming down, and so I went down into the ravine and you know it's like this, we live in a big city, right, so it's like this lit path, and I go off of that and off into the hills and the woods around there a bit, and to the spot where I go and get rid of stuff, or one of the places, and it's all fine, I do the work, it feels fine, and I turn around to leave, and as I'm walking out, this like two dozen white moths emerged from somewhere and followed me, like they were just around me and they just emerged even though it was freezing out, and they followed me as I walked out onto the path and stuff, and they followed me along the path for a ways, before they sort of drifted back off into the woods, and it was one of those things that when they were gone I was like, did I hallucinate that? What's going on? But yeah I took it as the success of the work and the spirit of the forest kind of clearing everything away for me as I was leaving, you know, but... What have you got for us, Aidan? AIDAN: There's a few to pick from, and I'm sorting to see which one is the most acceptable. Um. Yeah, probably my third, I think it's the third kind of major initiation that I had was the summer that Ash was conceived, me and his mom stayed up at a relative of her's house on the lake. And there was a, we stayed in a bedroom that was like the guest bedroom, it was up this stairwell, and this was like a really beautifully made but kind of cabin built place on this lake in Washington State. And we were there for quite a while, but I was out paddling around in the canoe on this little lake and I don't know what i did, but I knew at the point that I did it that I had upset the lake, and this is really a little bit before I got enough into magic to be thinking this way. I had some practices I was doing, but I hadn't kind of developed any world view where this would make sense until after this event, but. In some way I knew that I had pissed off the lake and I had best get home. And t

Narrator: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host Jen Spencer, as she explores how to super charges your sales, and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast, The fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners. Jen: Hi everybody. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer. And today, I am joined by Travis Smith who is Technology, Global Channels and Regional Vice President for HMI Performance Incentives. Welcome Travis. Travis: Hi Jen. Thanks for having me. Good to be here. Jen: It's great to have you. And for those of you listening who don't know Travis has a lot going on. So, in addition to his role at HMI Performance Incentives, he's also the CEO and Founder of Move the Channel, which we're gonna talk about, and CEO and Founder of TribeVest. So we're gonna get into a lot of good channel talk. But first, can you tell us a little bit about Move the Channel, because I know that's something you're really passionate about. I'd love to get a quick overview of what this is. Travis: You bet. Absolutely. Again, thanks for having me Jen, and good to be here with all your listeners. Move the Channel, absolutely is something I'm passionate about, and it's hard to believe it started eight, almost nine years ago. And in the way that it came to be was…of course, you know, I come from the technology space. So worked with a number of manufacturers and developers, worked for some distributors, was even a VP of sales for a system integrator and re-seller. So, along the way I had met a ton of friends. You know, colleagues, partners, and people I liked and really respected in the channel marketing and channel sales space. And, as you know in technology, there's a lot of moving that goes around, so it's sometimes hard to keep track of everybody. And so, I was playing around in this new thing called LinkedIn. You gotta remember this is 2010. Jen: Right. Travis: So it was kind of a very new...it's hard to believe. Jen: Right. Travis: In particularly, groups were even more new or more foreign to some of us. What I saw was that it was an opportunity to create a group, a community of old friends that I had met and worked with over the years. And so, I came up with the name. I'm convinced it's dumb luck, but it's a little bit of the genius of what has become Move the Channel community, and that's the name, Move the Channel. And we...I invited probably 40, 50 of these people in my network. Again, as a way to kind of keep in touch, and really, not just keep in touch but it turned out to be this network of friends that supported each other, collaborated, opened doors for each other. We even went as far as calling ourselves the Move the Channel Mafia, which I'm glad we didn't do. Sounds exciting doesn't it? Jen: I know. Travis: But, you know, it didn't take long. Here was this tight-knit group of 50 of us. And before we knew it we had 50, and then we had 100, and 1,000, and then, you know, 4,000. And now we have over 6,000 channel marketing, channel sales professionals worldwide. Jen: It's awesome. Travis: And that's how we came to be. Jen: I love it. And I just love, you know, your mission, the vision of it, you know, really trying to cultivate a community. And a lot of people try, and it doesn't always work. And so, I think you got in early like you said. You've kept it very helpful, it's organic. And I think that it's authentic. And I think that's part of why it's been so successful. Do you have like a success story about channel leaders who have been part of this community? Anything that you can share, like an anecdote of something really cool that's come out of it? Travis: You bet. And you nailed it. If you were to go try to start a group today, there's just so much noise and so much out there, it's hard to stand out. So, you know, credit a lot to the name, which I think captured a lot of people's attention and creativity. And the timing of it, getting in first, was obviously a big deal. I think we were, if not the first, one of the first groups dedicated to channel marketing and channel sales. Over the years we've really just been blown away by the impact that Move the Channel, and the reach that Move the Channel has been able to have. And there's...you know, I think about the successes out there, and all the channel leaders in the community. I mean, every time you see these lists of the channel chiefs, the women in the channel, at anytime they're kind of recognizing leadership in channel marketing and channel sales. There's a really good chance that they're a part of this community, whether it's in a Move the Channel group, or our movethechannel.com. But, you know, what we're probably most proud of is just all of the connections that have led to business successes in this group. It's impossible to measure, but I can't tell you how many stories I hear about two people, two leaders getting together, you know, connecting, finding each other from the group or Move the Channel community, and connecting and helping each other. Look at their respective channels from a different angle, through a different lens. And so we don't take credit for these big events that happen, or huge successes, but we like to take a little bit of credit when they actually...those connections were made in the Move the Channel. And a lot of, you know, finding new hires, more teammates, and even vendors. Finding vendors that have helped them achieve their goals, getting referrals to vendors that have helped them achieve their goals. So, you know, there's a lot of specific people that come to mind, but I think highlighting the success of the community is what I'm most proud of. Jen: Well, I think it's definitely something to be proud of. And maybe people listening here, well, if they haven't found Move the Channel yet, they'll go join that community and start reaping the benefits of it as well. Let's talk about HMI Performance Incentives as your, kind of that's your day job, right? That's your main gig. So tell us a little bit about that. And I really wanna learn how you've seen incentives really put to use in the channel. Because it's a big question, you know, people talk about incentivizing sales reps, gamifying experiences, incentivizing your channel. Channel sales reps are, you know, they're just their sales reps that are just not working all the time for you, right. So I'll stop talking. You tell me more about HMI. Travis: You bet. Absolutely. Yeah, you're right. You know, and there's a lot of buzz words out there. It's tough to know what's the appropriate strategy when it comes to engaging, not with just your channel partner, right? And I think of the channel partner at the organizational level. And then there's the channel sales person, the person, the human that works for the partner organization, or the partner sales engineer, or customer support. And HMI, gosh, it's such an exciting company right now. Even though we've been around for 35 years, we really are at an exciting point. We continue to innovate and move the incentive world forward. You know, Jen, when most people think of incentives, they think of the reward. And don't get me wrong, the reward is so critical. If you don't have the right reward, and the reward isn't motivating, your strategy is dead on arrival. Jen: Yeah. Travis: And more than ever, the reward options are more compelling to your target audience. You know, we're seeing huge trends towards experiences, and sporting events. You know, pick out not just merchandise or things like that. You can actually pick out the event, the theater, the summer concert. And don't just stop there but pick the date, the venue, the seat. And what about booking a hotel, and a shuttle to the show, you know, all this online in the incentive program, real time. And it's really, really cool. But let's be honest, I mean, compelling rewards are the baseline, you know, that's just the beginning. And I think what's most exciting that we're seeing at HMI is how channel incentives are solving big problems, you know, big challenges in the channel. And again, most people don't think of incentives like solving challenges. Jen: Right. Do you have an example, like an interesting use case you've seen for a particular partner program? Travis: Yeah, there's a lot of them that come to mind. You know, when I think of these challenges that we're solving, I think of…you know, the three that come to mind that are most common out there is the manufacturer distributor, either, A, doesn't know who's selling their stuff. They might know the partner that they've signed up to distribute or sell their solutions, but they don't necessarily know the sales person on the front line. And so, you know, they don't even have a database to communicate to them. And that's one challenge. The second challenge is you know who these people are. At least you have their contact information, but you don't really have any insight into them. You don't know how they're selling it, or what else they might be selling, or how your solutions might be complimenting their total solution that they're bringing to their customers. And then, C, you know, the third would be insight. They know who the customers are, they have a pretty good insight into their business, but they don't have...are they really winning the engagement, you know, the mind share, and grabbing the mind share and wallet share of these partners? And, you know, HMI has a pretty, really cool story to tell around solving these problems through channels and incentives. So for example, if you were looking to bring in a new, you know, someone that you didn't know. You don't have their information, but they're supposed to be selling your stuff, but you wanna communicate to them. It's much easier to get them to come sign up and register for an incentive program than it is a partner portal or something like that. Jen: Right. Travis: Right. And I know you guys understand why the indirect sales force are just not going to those types of applications. And therefore, you can't really engage with them very well with the traditional partner portal. But anyway, you know, an incentive program, it's pretty easy to not only get them to come register, but to surrender all sorts of information. Even maybe competitive information on who else they're selling. But anyway, back to your main question, you know, I think if I was gonna kind of single out one impressive program out there that just comes to mind, it's with my buddy Todd Owens over at QLogic and Cavium. Who's probably one of the...Jen, I've got to introduce you to him if you don't know him. He's one of the brightest and most strategic thinkers in the channel as far as I can tell. But what he did was he took HMI and his program and turned a traditional incentive program on its head, where most incentive programs are at the core incentivizing for sales. He doesn't reward for any actual sales but rewards all for engagement and enablement. So things like watching a 90-second video and taking a quick quiz, setting an appointment with one of his sales engineers in the region. So there's all these kind of other things that he's measuring and tracking, and ultimately giving rewards out for, which has been really cool. Of course there's a direct correlation between the people that are engaged in doing these things, and the sales that come in the end. Jen: I love that. Yeah, you have to introduce us, because I love the idea of incentivizing. Not the end result, but the behaviors that you know are gonna lead to the end result. So that's awesome. Love it. I want to ask you about your time at ProfitStars. So you were at ProfitStars before you joined HMI. When you were there, you were really in the thick of it, living, you know, day-to-day strategic alliances, identifying, recruiting, on-boarding, and then managing those partners. I'd love to hear some of the biggest struggles that you had in executing your job effectively, because a lot of our listeners are living that life right now. Travis: You bet. Yes. You know, but before HMI and Move the Channel, that was my world. You know, that was the world I was living. And I mentioned working for a number of manufacturers and distributors. And so, a few years ago, I was actually recruited back to that world where they wanted me to run their strategic alliances and roll out partner programs. And was just an incredibly awesome and exciting initiative…for those of you who don't know ProfitStars, it's part of Jack Henry, the $1.8 billion software company that sells through banking channels, so banks and credit unions. And then ProfitStars is the division that sells through all the other partners. So everybody that's not a bank or credit union. And that was the division I was in. And it was pretty easy, because the name was so well-known and they're so respected. You know, getting a meeting with the owner or CEO to sign them up as a partner wasn't a difficult part. And, you know, the CEO and the partner got the value prop that ProfitStars and Jack Henry were bringing to the table. So closing the partner, and you know, recruiting partners was a little bit the easy part. I know that not everybody has that luxury, but that was the case. And it turned out that, you know, the biggest challenge wasn't finding and signing up the partner. It was, you know, how can we engage with that new partner's front line. The sales people, the account managers. Jen, as you know, they're the ones that have the influence over the sale. Jen: Yeah. Travis: So that was our challenge, you know, and that was the fun part. And had a lot of good success, and very proud of the work there. But, you know, it's not something you solve and say, "Oh, we're engaged with the front line and sales people check." Jen: Yeah. Travis: It's something that you're always working on. Jen: Right. Travis: You're always, you know, making sure that you continue to engage and have their mind share. Jen: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, you know, speaking of that kind of engagement and results that you get. You know something we talk about quite often here is that 80/20 rule in the channel where, you know, right, 80% of revenue comes from 20% of partners, or even more. You know, even 90/10 sometimes, or more often, lately it seems that we're hearing that. And a lot of that goes back to recruitment, and then how you're engaging, how you're maintaining mind share. You know, what are your thoughts on this principle? Is it something we just have to accept, that this is just the way it's gonna be? Is there a way to avoid it? Love to hear your thoughts on that topic, because I know there are people that definitely fall into both camps. Travis: Sure, sure. Yep. There are people out there that just accept it, and the statistics would be tough to argue that. But, gosh, great question. We've seen though, HMI specifically. I think we're uniquely positioned to help with this dilemma. You know, here's the thing, it's way easier to move up, you know move up an existing customer, a partner, than it is to find and train a new one. And, you know, recruitment and out there finding new partners always needs to be part of your plan. But, if we could just take a look at that middle 60, you know that middle 60%, and focus on them. You know, there's a great opportunity to move them up to that next level. And the challenge has between with performance incentives and channel incentives is a lot of companies kind of roll out these blanket reward programs, right? And when you do that, you have the same 20% hitting those goals and enjoying the rewards, or the president's club trip to Hawaii. And, you know, taking a page out of Allbound's book here, you know, it's all about…today, it's all about personalizing it, and customizing it to each individual person. So, to be honest, the technology wasn't there five years ago. But today, literally, each person that logs in to, you know, an HMI system for example, has a completely unique experience. You know, they see their unique goal or threshold, or unique promotion that's available to them because they sell a certain product or in a certain region, or there's unique rewards available to them. You know, all depending on their demographics or how we've segmented the customer/partner database. So, and then those goals are based on how much they sold from the previous quarter, or how much they sold from the previous year. It's not this, you know, "You have to sell this for us to get our attention," it's, "If you show us progress, we're gonna invest back in you." Jen: Awesome. Travis: And we call this intimacy at scale. You like that? Jen: I do like that. I do like that. Travis: I'm trying to get it to stick. Jen: No, I like that because I think it's something that; you've hit on something that really plagues, you know, a lot of sales and marketing professionals. And the tactics that really work well tend to be ones that are very hard to scale. Because as soon as you start scaling something, you start automating it, it makes it impersonal. And then, you lose that effect, right? Like, you think about the experience, the feeling you get if someone takes the time to write a handwritten note to you, right? And so, I like getting this note, right? Well, then it becomes, let's just e-mail everybody, right? And then it's just another piece of noise in your inbox. And so I like that, I like that idea of intimacy at scale. Yeah. I'm a fan. Travis: Right on. No, that was an awesome perspective. You're right. You know those things that work we try to scale them, and then in the process, we lose the personal touch. And that's usually what it is. It's the personalization that we lose. But, you know, I think technology is finally there. We can still personalize and have the user feel special, because they are, if you're using the right systems out there. Jen: Yeah. Travis: And as a result, you know…so getting back to the 80/20 rule, you know, if we kind of segment our partner, customers in your A tier, and B tier, and C tier, you know, we're all about moving those C tier customers to B, and the B's up to the A tier. And then...now, the only problem is how do we create a new tier for those A's because we've run out of letters. Jen: Right. Right. So I've one more, like channel question for you. And I'm gonna ask you to kind of look through your crystal ball here. Wondering about the future of partner programs, you know, you think about like the last 10 years or 20 years, and then where we are today, they've definitely evolved. If you were to look ahead, where do you see the future of partner programs going? And what are you most excited about for the next decade or two of this world of strategic alliances? Travis: Gosh, that's a fun question. Good question. You know, partners...it used to be…I mean, I guess if we were going to look back before we look into the future, it used to be, you know, the strategy was build it and they will come. And that included all these resources. And they would build these things and kinda put these libraries in place. And back in the day when there was only a handful of vendors doing that, they actually had a little bit of success. They would actually get their partners to come and use these resources. But today, there is just so much noise. Everybody has these resources that they expect their channel partners to come to and access and use. And it's not happening, and it's not gonna happen in the future. It's not build it and they will come. Jen: Right. Travis: It's not the field of dreams. And so, you know, what we're seeing now is...and where I see the future is, it's not getting all these assets and resources. It's how can you integrate with your partner? How can you integrate? And you've always tried to integrate your product into theirs. You know, you've got to keep doing that. You've got to integrate your marketing into theirs. You've got to keep doing that. And you've got to keep doing it better. But the real advance is gonna be, how can you integrate with the buying experience? And can you help your partners be more effective out there selling, and help them through the journey? And, you know, we don't have all the answers there but it's starting to crystallize. Again, companies like Allbound are doing things in ways that people had never seen before or considered just a couple few years ago. And those are areas of advancement that are starting to show us the future of channel marketing programs. And on the HMI side, five years ago we weren't having intimacy at scale, and customizing each participant's experience in the channel incentive program. Today we are. There's a long way to go, but that's where it's heading. Those are gonna be the vendors that win. The ones that can integrate into the buying experience. Jen: I agree, because it's all about the customer. That's exciting. I'm looking forward to seeing that all transpire along with you. So thanks for this. Thanks for sharing a lot of your time today with me about incentives and channel programs. This has been awesome, and I do hope that folks who haven't had a chance to participate in Move the Channel will get over to LinkedIn and join that group and start contributing to that group's success. Thank you for starting that. I think it's...I'm glad, I'm very glad you did. Travis: Also, I think it's where we first crossed paths, virtually. Jen: Yep. That's right. So, but Travis before I do let you go, like, really, I have some more personal questions that I always ask our guests. Just so we can get to know you a little bit better. So I'm gonna put you through that rigor now. So, my first question for you is, what is your favorite city? Travis: Gosh, great question. Cleveland, Ohio. Jen: Really. Tell me why you love Cleveland? Travis: You don't get that answer very often, do you? Jen: No, I don't. I don't. I've been there once, and I liked it when I was there. But why do you like Cleveland? Travis: You know, I'm a little bit from Ohio, and a little bit from California. I always joke my parents when I was really young, so there was a lot of back and forth. I was born in California, more raised in Ohio. But growing up in Mansfield, Ohio, which is about an hour south of Cleveland. I became the biggest die hard Cleveland Browns, Cleveland Indians, Cleveland Cavs, and everything Cleveland. And it was always such a big trip to go to the big city. And so, I have really fond memories of it. And to this day, it's still one of my favorite cities to go visit. Jen: That's great. That's wonderful. Okay, next question for you. Do you consider yourself an animal lover? Do you have any pets? Travis: I do. I'm not a cat person, although my wife is. Jen: Okay. Travis: But fortunately, she's also a dog person. And we saved a mutt from the pound, about seven years ago, and it's part Boxer, part Lab, part Golden Retriever, and a few other things that we're not quite sure. But it is still a puppy today. Seven years later, it has not calmed down a bit. And her name is Honu, which is turtle in Hawaiian. Jen: Yeah. Travis: So, we call her a dog turtle. Jen: What inspired that? I've never met a dog named turtle. Travis: We went on our honeymoon in Hawaii, and went swimming with some honus, some sea turtles. And we found ourselves kind of calling them, and trying to get their attention like you would a dog. Jen: Okay. Travis: And so, we said, "When we get a dog we're gonna call him or her Honu." Jen: That's great. Oh I love it. Okay, next question, Mac or PC? Travis: Oh gosh, I"m sitting here looking at both right now. Jen Spencer: Oh, you're one of those. Travis: I have both, and I love both of them. I have recently been turned onto Mac, and that's where I run a number of my businesses. But, you know what, I have the Microsoft Surface Pro. Jen: Okay. Travis: And, pretty sweet, I have to say. They've come a long way. Jen: Yeah, I've heard great things about that. Okay, last question for you. Let's say I was able to offer you an all expenses paid trip, where would it be to? Travis: It would be to Sydney, Australia. Jen: All right. Have you been there before? Travis: I have. I spent a summer abroad over there. And I've been trying to get back ever since. Jen: Well, I hope you have a chance to return. Travis: Well, should I expect that package in an e-mail after this, or? Jen: No, not any time soon. Travis: No, I was just curious. Jen: Never. It was just hypothetical. Let's say, I was able to offer this. Travis: Yeah. I would say there or Patagonia, Chile, which is another place I've been before, but I'm dying to go back. Jen: Well good. Travis: How about you? I'm curious, what's your answer on that one? Jen: I wanna go to Greece. I really wanna go to Greece, because I want...my background is in theater, and there's a lot of history there, and I want to be able to experience that. But then, I also just love to like just chill on a beach and do nothing. And as far as I can tell, I can do both of those things in Greece. And so that's what I would like to do. Travis: Beautiful. Jen: Yeah. Travis: You've almost made me change my mind. Jen: Oh. Travis: Now, I want to go to Greece. That sounds awesome. I've never been, and that's definitely one high on my list too. That's cool. Jen: Well, thanks for again spending some time with me today. It was awesome. So if anyone wants to reach out to you personally, obviously, they can go to LinkedIn and they can join the Move the Channel group. Is there another way for them to get a hold of you if they want to chat, maybe about HMI or anything that we've talked about here on the show? Travis: You bet. You can go to movethechannel.com and reach me there by submitting just an e-mail, which is perfect. And also, at my HMI e-mail, tsmith@hmiaward.com. And I look forward to it. I love this stuff. I'm kind of nerdy when it comes to channel marketing and sales programs, as you can tell. Jen: Perfect. That's what I like to hear. Thanks again. Thanks Travis for joining me, and thank you everyone else. And we'll catch you next week with an all new episode. Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to the Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at Allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone

Sue Fernand, VP of Channel Sales at Cirrus Insight joins us to discuss how smaller businesses can scale quickly and effectively with both the right channel partners and the right tools on this episode of The Allbound Podcast.   Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Explore how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer and today I am joined by Sue Fernand, VP of Channel Sales at Cirrus Insight. Welcome, Sue. Sue: Thank you, Jen. Happy to be here.   Jen: Well, I'm really glad to have you, and especially I wanted to share a little bit about your background because you've been working in a channel for about 18 years, and you've pretty much had almost every role within the channel. So, from like being strategic accounts director at Esna Technologies to different specialized director of channel roles, and I know you also serve as a strategic advisor, focused on like I.E partnerships and channel for the small business web, so you definitely know channel inside and out. We are just really, really, really glad to have you here on the show. Sue: Well, thank you. I'm glad to be here.   Jen: So let's dive into some questions I have for you. You know, you've got a lot of experience, not just in channel, but in tech, and we think about like rapidly growing software companies and the software industry and SaaS. Would love to hear from you where you think the software industry has the greatest opportunity, specifically when it comes to channel, and knowing that channel has been more of a traditional hardware type of go-to market strategy for many, many years.   Sue: Yeah, that's definitely a good question, because you're right, and in my early years of being in sales and being in channel sales, it was. It was all hardware. You know, in the OEM space a little bit, as well as, you know, just being an additional product in like a telecom vendor's portfolio. And then SaaS is a little bit different.   I think the partnership story and channel story, you know, changes a little bit, but I think the greatest opportunity is really for growth, right? I mean a lot of the, like you mentioned, small startups, you know, they don't have the scale out the gate. So trying to get the word out on your own about what your product does or getting in front of, you know, customers that would be a good fit, it's oftentimes challenging, and you can spend a lot of money doing events and, you know, you might blow through any sort of VC, let's say, that you have. But you can get a really strong partner ecosystem that knows your product, sees the value in it, sees the value for their clients, I think that's a really great way to scale.   I mean, again, a lot of these companies that you would sign up to be a partner, they have clients already and it's, you know, super...I think it's a great place to start, and that's one of the things I always do when I bring on a new partner. It's like, "Let's get some webinars or events or things like that set up with your existing clients. Let's get in front of those clients." I think it's always easier for customers to sell to their existing customers, right? So it's a really great way to kick off the relationship and it's a great way to have some initial wins.   I think, you know, getting success out the gate is a good way to do it. You know, even if you have to maybe spoon-feed a couple of deals to your partners, I think that that kind of creates a good environment when the relationship kicks off, instead of spending a ton of time training and creating awareness and creating, you know, collateral, and then it's like there's no opportunities, so things just sit there. But I think, you know, being able to get in front of, you know, whatever channel you choose, get in front of their existing clients and make sure that you can kind of have some pipeline right away. Jen: That's such a good point, and you know what it makes me thing of, it reminds me of when we recently promoted one of our BDRs to be an account exec, right? And when we did that, we didn't just kind of set him free, right? Actually our director of sales kind of worked with him and, you know, did those sort of ride-alongs and got a win under his belt, right, and really helped him see that and taste it, right, and be hungry for more.   And it's an approach I see a lot of sales leaders taking when it comes to their direct business, but when it comes to channel, I mean, they're still just...they're salespeople. So how do you teach them how to have a win and get that win for them, help get that win for them, and then let them go and do it on their own after that? So I think it's just something I hadn't really thought of before and then you mention this, and it's like that makes perfect sense to me.   Sue: Yeah, exactly. It kind of started out with a positive. That way, the story can kind of resonate throughout the company, and people will pay a bit more attention to, you know, your offering. Jen: So, you know, I try to be a really good social listener and pay attention to some of the really great content that's being shared in the space. And you had shared an article that was written by one of your colleagues at Cirrus Insight. It was called "Why Small Businesses Are Struggling Without Sales Software," and I really liked that piece. We'll link to it in the show notes. So in it, the author says that only around 50% of all businesses survive 5 years or more and only about one third make it a full 10-plus years. And if you want to be a success now, it's such a key to work carefully, so it was pretty eye-opening.   And, you know, from our perspective, you know, here over at Allbound, we 100% agree sales software, partner sales software can make a world of difference in those companies being successful. I would love to hear from you what you think a business needs, you know, for their channel to create a path that's gonna lead a business to that 10-plus year mark, given the fact that so many small businesses are, you know, struggling to survive. Sue: Yeah, definitely, and that article was super interesting because some of the statistics in there were just crazy. You know, it said, you know, of the people that were polled, 74% of those companies were managing things manually, and only 16% even leveraged CRM, which just seems surprising in this day and age. But, you know, that's true, obviously, and you do see it. I mean, I think being in the sales and tech world, sometimes we tend to live in a bubble and we assume everybody's using all these really cool things and managing their business in the most effective manner, when, in reality, that's not the case.   And I think small businesses, in general, sometimes try to do a lot of things manually to maybe cut some corners and save some money, or they'll like patch together a bunch of free apps, let's say, but I really think that's where you fail, right, because you're not getting any of the tracking data either, so how do you even figure out what's working or what's not working, and those types of investments, they definitely pay off. And I think when you're managing a channel, you have to have a really good system in place of how that's gonna work from beginning to end. Otherwise, it would be just a big mess because, again, it's probably gonna be, you know, one or two people managing an ecosystem of partners, so you need to have some automation. And you absolutely want to track the data, track performance, so that you really can figure out where your efforts are best served, right, which partners are bringing you the most leads. That's hugely important. Which partners are maybe bringing you the bigger size deals, so you're gonna want to put your efforts there, or which partners are just not getting it, they're just not engaging, and, you know, what can you do to get them engaged or maybe that's just not a good fit, and you move along. But I think it's really important to invest in sales or partner enablement software because there's a definite investment upfront, but it's going to pay off.   Jen: And, you know, I think you'll agree with me when I say that successful partners and salespeople, successful salespeople, tend to be really happy. They're gonna be your happy partners. They're going to continue to drive business for your organization. And if they're unhappy, that probably means they're not making money, right? So, you know, how do you do it? How are you enabling your partners to sell more efficiently? Are you running promotional programs? Are you producing any types of materials or marketing tools? You know, love to hear a little bit about what you do to ensure that those partners are well enabled to sell. Sue: Absolutely, yes. I kind of have three different channels within the channels that I focus on. The majority of the channels that I'm focusing on now with my current role at Cirrus are Salesforce consulting partners. So they're actually referral partners. They're not actually selling our licensing, but, you know, they are involved with their Salesforce deployments, all of their clients, our Salesforce users, so it's really, really important for them to know about what our product does. So one of the things we do for them, and I think it's a really smart move, is give them the software to use in-house. So they're using it, and it's a great app. They love it and they know that it's going to help increase Salesforce adoption, so it makes natural sense to recommend it.   Then, obviously, we also pay referral fees and we launch, you know, different types of promotions from time to time, you know, that will offer the ability to maybe win a trip or get a gift card, or something like that. But constant engagement and having a really easy way for them to get to that content too. Like, we've got a landing page with resources, so we've kept up-to-date, but it's got all of our marketing materials, tape studies, tutorials, everything, you know, is right there so that they're not having to, you know, go all over the place to kind of figure out what they need.   As well as we've done what we call micro-sites, so when someone signs up to be a partner, we'll create a custom branded page with their logo and a little description. We'll also list them as a partner on our site, but they are referring people to us. It has that really nice look. You know, we've got their logo on there, and it just, you know, shows that there's a relationship there. So I think that that's, you know, important, to make sure that you not only have a program, but make sure that it's easy and continually, you know, query the partners too, like, "Is this working for you? Is this a mutually beneficial relationship?" And if you need to make changes or you need to maybe launch something as a promo, then you can, you know, go ahead and do that just to kind of keep that engagement going. Jen: That's a good point. And I'm wondering, have you ever created something or worked for a company where you guys put something together, whether it was a promotion or it was some, you know, content or something that you did that just fell flat, that you thought like, "Oh, this is gonna be great," and the partners just not respond to it? Has that ever happened? Sue: Oh yeah, definitely. You come up with this great promotion, let's say, and you're like, "People are gonna be signing up left and right, and we're gonna get so many leads or so many referrals out of this," and it just doesn't take off. I think you really need to figure out what's important to their business, because, you know, their business has needs, right? And I think for us, like with our consulting partners, their business is services, they're implementing, so that's what's hugely important to them.   Retail partners, they're selling something else, and we're a bolted-on attachment, so that's a little bit different because they're making potentially a little bit more money off of it. So I think you almost have to continually, before you launch a promotion, really understand what's gonna drive them. It's gotta help their business, not necessarily the actual prize at the end of the day, but it's got to be something that's gonna overall effect and allow them to have more business out of the promotion that you're offering.   Jen: I'd love to hear a really great partnership story. I'm wondering, from your experience, whether it's at Cirrus or maybe at Esna, you know, really anywhere you've worked over the course of your career, if you have just, like, one of your favorite partnership stories, whether that's like the most revenue, or a really big accomplishment, or some like amazing strategic alliance that you were able to build. Do you have any anecdotes for us? Sue: Yeah, definitely. I think probably like the most challenging but exciting time in my career of managing in channels was when I made the switch, when I was, you know, with the previous employer, Esna. We'd kind of switched from working with like traditional telecom hardware vendors to trying, you know, working in the SaaS base. Even though we were technically still equipment, we were repositioning and attaching ourselves to SaaS products, like Google and, you know, Office 365, and other, you know, cloud based platforms. So we had to seek out a different kind of partner, and that was an exciting time, challenging time, because it was very different, and a much, much different approach, but it allowed me to really get involved in a lot of the early on enterprise companies, you know, moving to the cloud.   One of the deals I worked on with one of our partners was with LinkedIn, and that was a super exciting opportunity, super exciting deal. We were very critical in that decision of moving that entire company over to Google. I know they've now been acquired by Microsoft, but it was a very exciting deal, and it really solidified the relationship with that partner, because, you know, it's pretty obvious without our piece of it, maybe that deal would not have gone down, and we really worked very strategically together on it, so that when it came through, it was very, very exciting. So it was a real success and a win, and I think it left a better engagement for both parties, because that was so much investment on both ends and it was a very long process, but it was definitely a big accomplishment. Jen: I think, you know, recruiting the right partners is so important, and it's something that we've talked about a great deal on this podcast or other content that we created at Allbound about, you know, who you decide to partner with and build those alliances with. And, you know, ideally, it's all of your partnerships all result in these amazingly successful relationships, you know, like the one you shared. You know, but realistically there are partnerships that fall flat, you know, that don't quite get to where we had hoped they want to. And then there are some that we consider like those diamonds in the rough, right, where you didn't know how amazing it was gonna be, and then it just blossomed into a really great partnership. Do you have an effective recruiting tool or a strategy that you've used to really help gain meaningful partnerships? Sue: Yeah, definitely, and that's hugely important, because I think, you know, there is the challenge of knowing who the people are, the players, and their respective base that you want to get into. And I think sometimes we all want to go right to top, right? We want the biggest ones, like, you know, in the Salesforce ecosystem that would be like the Accentures. You know, we want to go right to the top. And I think that for my purposes, what I found is going right to the top isn't always the best way. Yes, they're very, very big companies, and they have lots of clients, but it's very, very hard to get mind share in those large organizations, because, you know, there may be potentially even a lot of red tape to even get that partnership going, and then once you're there, you know, it's really hard to get mind share.   So I think kind of going for, you know, more of a smaller business, but maybe if you're looking for particular verticals, a business that focuses entirely on that vertical, that makes sense, or more of a boutique type, you know, partner, and a lot of times can be that diamond in the rough, right? Like, maybe it's only a two- or three-person operation, but they've got this reputation, where they're just bringing you these really big deals.   I really like to, you know, take a look at people's websites quite honestly and see what kind of work they've done, what kind of content they're putting up. I like to see people that are kind of thought leaders, because then I know that they're gonna get the ROI and the story that we're gonna bring to the client. So I like to do a little bit of investigation, not just knowing, "Hey, this is a big partner, this is a successful partner," but let's see what kinds of clients they have, what's on their website, what's on their blog, what are they putting out there, what's important to them. So certainly bringing social into the mix is a lot about how I do the recruitment or seeking out additional partners. Jen: Well, I think that's really smart because I've seen culture make or break a partnership, right? So you can have two organizations. You might be both targeting a similar, you know, that same ideal customer profile or you might be focusing on the same buyer percentage. But culturally, if you're extremely different in your approach, that could definitely impede the success of that partnership. So, I mean, I think that's really, really wise, but there's not always a clear-cut way of figuring that out, right? That takes time. Like you said, going onto someone's website, consuming some of the content that they're creating, looking at what they're posting on social media. I mean, do you have a team that helps you with that, or are you kind of doing that on your own? How do you scale that kind of...yeah. Sue: At Cirrus, we're small, we're a startup, but yeah, it's kind of on me. But in the past, gosh, I mean I remember back in the early days of my career, you know, going and getting like the phone books and going through and finding like all the interconnect companies in a particular area, you didn't have, you know, as many online resources, so you had to go a little bit, you know, more old school on that. But I think that, in general, you're right, the culture thing is super important, and you also need to understand the rules of engagement, too. That's big as well.   You know, some partnerships will want you to be very hands off. You know, they'll want you to entirely enable their teams, but they don't want you talking to their customers. They want to own the deal and they're just gonna kind of come to you, you know, to order it, let's say, or if they have technical questions. Where other partners are gonna really want you kind of side by side in the deal, especially the larger strategic ones. So I guess knowing, you know, what the rules of engagement are and how much, you know, visibility you're gonna want into their pipeline, let's say, you know, these are all things that you kind of need to find out when you identify what types of partners you're looking for.   Jen: Oh yeah, I agree 100%, and it's like it's not a one size fits all, right? So you have to adjust that communication. Sue: Yeah, definitely not, definitely not. And I've even worked in OEM relationships too, where you can't even...it's not even something that you're publically saying that it's your product, even though it is your product. So that's a whole other different partnership, where it is, really, truly hands off, and you're just kind of managing, you know, the actual relationship between the two companies, but there's not gonna be any sort of a forward facing discussion with the client.   In my experience, I prefer it when it's more of a, you know, collaborative approach. I think it's more successful, and maybe that's just the types of products that I've sold, but I think no one can tell the story better than you can. You can definitely enable your partners, and they can tell that story, but when it comes to a really large strategic deal, I think having, you know, both people there, them selling their company and their services, and you coming in as, you know, supporting them as the expert on your technologies. For me, that's been the recipe for success.   Jen: Before I let you go, I was just thinking, Cirrus Insight's a younger company, like you said. You've got this partner play. Maybe you can kind of take a step back and share a little bit about the company, you know, so all the listeners have an idea of like, okay, who is Cirrus Insight, right? And then also, you know, love to know when the organization decided to make that go-to market, to make that partner play and have a go-to market strategy around channel partners. Was it right out of the gate? Did it come later? Can you just shed a little bit of light on how you did that? Because I know we have a lot of listeners who are in similar situations or maybe even like a year or two behind where you are, I think it would be great to hear your story. Sue: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I mean, I joined them almost...so it'll be two years next month. So when I came onboard, they already did have, you know, partners. I think out the gate, they focused on the partner model right away, because they knew that was gonna be the way to scale, and Salesforce partners were the way to go because they owned the relationship, and building a name and a brand in that ecosystem, that's where you had to go.   In terms of, you know, the company and the history, it's kind of a funny story actually. I was one of the first users of Cirrus Insight when I was at Esna, so I actually found the product. We were a Gmail shop. We used Salesforce and, you know, quite honestly we were struggling with our adoption, and I found it, and I used it, and I was a huge fan. I have posted one of the first reviews on the app exchange, so I knew about them for quite some time and was a big fan.   So when I was looking into new opportunities, it made sense for me to reach out to other products that I loved and used and I knew made my life easier because I think, you know, that adds a lot of credit and validity to your story when you can say, like, "Hey, I've been there, I've seen the transformation, and I use this," or it's not like you're just selling a product, so to speak, if you have a little bit of history on it.   But yeah, they've been partner focused before my time. I know that's how they grew the company. So when I came in, there were already some established partners, and now I've just taken that process and just grown it even further and brought in some additional relationships with OEM Salesforce partners and building up a little bit more on the resale side and getting a better handle on tracking, the referral partners that we have and just having a point person that's just engaging with them on a regular basis.   I think, in general, with any channel, it's just about enablement and engagement. And, again, the thing that we were talking about earlier, having a system in place that allows you to do that, not manually, but having something in place that allows you to use some software so that you can have the data that you need, and be able to track that, and track the metrics on it, and figure out what's working and what's not working. Otherwise, I don't think, you know, it's going to be a successful channel if you don't do it right. Jen: Absolutely. It's like, you know, if you were a DemandGen marketer and you never paid attention to what marketing efforts produced the most number of leads, right? If you did that, you know, that would be very foolish, right? So putting the same approach, the same thing we're all doing with the direct sales and marketing efforts, putting those same processes and holding those same standards, you know, with indirect sales and indirect marketing as well. So it's a big passion point of mine for sure.   Sue: Yes, definitely. I agree.   Jen: So before I totally let you go, I do like to ask a couple of more personal questions so the listeners can get to know you a little bit better and maybe bond with you over some other commonalities besides just channels, because we are more than our jobs, right? So my first question for you is, what is your favorite city? Sue: My favorite city, oh gosh, that's a good question. You know, I hate to say it, because it's so close to home, but New York City. I just always find something new and exciting to do there, and I'm pretty close to New York. I'm in Connecticut, so I get there quite often. So I've been in a lot of places in the world, but I do have to say New York City is definitely my favorite city. Jen: Awesome. Okay, question number two, do you consider yourself an animal lover? Do you have any pets? Sue: You know, it's funny. If you asked me this like five years ago, I would say no, but I have a dog now, and I'm like a complete convert. I was against it. My children really wanted a dog, and, of course, made all sorts of promises that they were gonna take care of the dog, and that's really not what happened. I take care of her, but I am like...I just like ride or die for that dog.   Jen: What kind of a dog is it? Sue: She is a long-haired Chihuahua. So she's like a little, you know, a little lap dog, but she's adorable, and I just adore her, and I didn't anticipate myself feeling this way about a dog, but I do. Jen: I'm a very similar story, and actually he's like five-eighths Chihuahua. There's a couple other things in there. We did the whole like doggie DNA thing. So, yeah, I have a Chihuahua, and I swear I think he would be most happy if he was in a Baby Bjorn attached to me at all times. Like, if he could get inside my skin, he would be happy, right? It's so funny. They're funny dogs. Okay, question number three, Mac or PC? Sue: Mac all the way. In fact, you know, I think I used like a PC laptop like once in my life. I've been a Mac user since I was a child. Jen: Awesome. Last question for you. Let's say I was able to offer you an all expenses paid trip, where would it be to? Sue: Ooh, I would go to Italy. Jen: Ooh. Anywhere particular in Italy or just like see it all? Sue: I would just like to go. I would like to see it all and eat my way through Italy.   Jen: Yeah, sounds good. Sue: And drink wine as well.   Jen: Sounds really good. I know I went to Italy a number of years ago, like a good, you know, like, I don't know, 14 or 15 years ago, and I think I remember it being actually cheaper to drink wine than anything else, and so that was what I did. Sue: Nice. Jen: But I do hope you get to Italy, even if I'm not the one who has the opportunity to send you there. Sue: There you go, exactly. Jen: Well, thank you. Thanks for joining me and joining us in the Allbound Podcast. If anyone wants to reach out to you, maybe they're interested in becoming a Cirrus Insight partner, maybe they kind of want to pick your brain about some of the thoughts you've shared, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Sue: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, feel free to follow me, obviously on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram. But if you want to, you know, directly communicate with me, you can just e-mail me at S, as in "SAM," fernand, F-E-R-N-A-N-D, @cirrusinsight.com, and I'm happy to talk channel. And then hey, if we happen to be in the same town, have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine, whatever works, I'm happy to share thoughts. Jen: Great. I'm sure folks will appreciate that, especially considering the experience you have and what you're building over there at Cirrus. So, again, thank you, Sue, for joining us, and thanks everyone else for joining us for the podcast, and we'll catch you all next week.   Sue: Excellent. Thank you so much, Jen. Male: Thanks for tuning into the Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visits the resource center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone.

Vince Menzione, Founder of Cloud Wave Partners, join me, Jen Spencer to discuss long-term relationships with partners, compensating partners, collaborating with the competition and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host Jen Spencer as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners. Jen: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, and today, I am joined by Vince Menzione, who is founder of Cloud Wave Partners. Welcome, Vince. Vince: Jen, thank you. I'm just so excited to be here. I've listened to some of your episodes. You've had some amazing guests, and just delighted and honored to be here. Jen: We're glad to have you, as well, especially because your business experience just screams channel, and I love getting a chance to chat with people who have seen all aspects of channel sales and marketing. I mean, you were VP of Sales at General Dynamics, you were a general manager of Partner Sales Strategy at Microsoft, you host your own podcast, "The Ultimate Guide to Partnering." You're truly ingrained in the partner ecosystem. Can you share a little bit about what drew you to and what has really kept you working in the channel? Vince: That's a really great question. You know, I think it all started, Jen, because when I started off in selling right out of college, and I had a degree in marketing and wound up in sales because that's where the big money was. I saw that the people in my organization were making most of the money in the sales organization. And so I worked with companies, in four companies, that were, kind of, underdogs in their market, and candidly, I hated cold-calling. And so, you know, being a Marketing major and realizing that I needed to create credibility for my company in my offering, I started early hosting events and inviting complimentary companies to present their solutions along with my company's solution in order to build our credibility and our brand, and that led to a lot of, sort of, ad hoc collaboration with organizations that grew over time and then formalized into relationships, alliances, channel partners, and the like. And the one company that I was with at the time, we took that company from about 6 million in sales to about a 125 million. And then I did a turn-around where I was actually asked to start the government sales business and build a channel from scratch for that business, and that was a pretty interesting time. It was right after 9/11, we were selling to the government ruggedized computers, and we had a very unique offering, but we're underpenetrated our market. And so, I leveraged the relationships that I was building. I leveraged PR, events. I even spent time on Capitol Hill trying to get our message out through local congressmen and the staffers and the like. And so, this resulted in an amazing success that led to my joining Microsoft to lead the channel strategy all up for public sector. And so, I've always believed in the philosophy of one plus one equals three or more and mutual success and collaboration and at my core, I'm a connector. So I guess partner is just really ingrained in my system. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that philosophy, and you wrote this article. It was called "The Three P's and how every partner needs to think in the Third Wave," and those three P's were partnership, policy, and perseverance. And you talk about driving business outcomes, you talk about shareholder value and market share. I'd love if you could elaborate a little bit. It was such a great piece but elaborate, for this audience, about, you know, how does partnership really fit into what you're referencing as being the third wave, the Internet of Everything, and then we'll link to the article in the show notes also, but, you know, can you give us the Cliffs Notes version? Vince: Sure, happy to. And that article was a direct result of seeing Steve Case speak, actually, at an event, a Microsoft event, hearing him being interviewed by my leader at the time and then also then reading his book "The Third Wave." And what really resonated for me there was just this evolution, you know, from the Internet to the app economy to the internet of things, and that there was this need that I still believe is under-appreciated around working across policymakers about just the amount of cooperation and collaboration that needs to take place between government agencies and private business. We're moving into a whole nother economy right now as you know. I mean, this disruption in the cloud is changing everything, and the Internet of Everything is all about, you know, things like smart cars, the ability to monitor for, you know, police officers to monitor things like gunshots and doing gunshot detection that ties into how a police officer responds to how municipalities deal with water and wastewater management to, you know, traffic lights, all kinds of things that were not part of the computer ecosystem in the past. And it requires this collaboration, again, between the agencies as well as just a common working knowledge on policy and things like that that those policies...some of those policies need to change or be updated to support this 21st-century environment that we live in. I'll give you an example actually. I was thinking about this. Jen: Yeah, that'll be great. Vince: Yeah, so you know Uber? I mean, you know, an incredible disruptive technology, right? But Uber has, kind of, built itself on disrupting and not collaboration. And I think about this at times because, you know, you'll go into certain cities, you'll land at an airport, and you'll realize you can't get an Uber, right? Because the city has basically blocked them because they feel like it's predatory and competitive to what their cab services do and what they feed off of that, their tax revenue dollars to that. But what if Uber had gone to those agencies, to those municipalities in a spirit of cooperation rather than fighting them, and said, "Hey, you know what? We can collaborate more effectively together. Why not have it so that Uber can then communicate to the mass transit systems in those cities?" Think about things like this, I take the train to my exit or my stop, I should say, and my Uber is then waiting for me because Uber has created a bridge or a collaboration technology to that municipal transit system and knows when that train or bus or you know, other motor transportation will arrive at that stop and you know, calls an Uber and my Uber shows up for me automatically. I mean, these are the type of things that you could see happening with the closer collaboration in what a lot of people are calling smart cities or cities of the future and those kinds of technologies where municipalities and private industry come together for the greater good. Jen: That's a great example, and it's that we really...I think that the crux of it is that we have to evolve in terms of that policy, our business practices. And far too often, I see organizations trying to kind of shove tomorrow's collaboration into today's or yesterday's practices, and it's hard. I mean, what you're suggesting is innovative and it's optimistic. It's challenging, right? This isn't something that's gonna come very easily. Vince: It is challenging, and also, the companies don't always get it, you know? I talked about the need for not just the collaboration, the cooperation but the patience and persistence that are required, and I might have mentioned this in the article. I was reminded of this because it takes a long time...If you're going to work in a regulated industry like healthcare or government, the sale cycles might be longer, the hurdles that you have to face or overcome like, you know, regulations, like HIPAA compliance and health care, or maybe just the fact that you're selling to a government entity and you have to have the right contracting vehicles, and the sales cycle is longer, those things take longer. And I was reminded of an example from that company that I built the government practice for. We initially had a CEO running the business who didn't get that. He didn't understand the government sales cycle and how long it took to build the government practice. Often, government agencies look at you and they frowned upon companies just coming in and kinda poaching business in their market. They wanna know that you're gonna be in that business for the long haul, and they wanna see a track record of proof and success for a period of time before they'll award business to you. And so that particular CEO didn't get it. He didn't wind up staying in that role very long, but we persisted and the business took off from there. And so, again, you have to have the patience and persistence to drive forward if you wanna achieve an objective. Jen: You had some really, you know, great experiences and successes in managing channel for Microsoft's public sector. I was really hoping you might be willing to, sort of, share, recount one of your best partnership stories with our listeners. Maybe a time you achieved a great revenue goal together, there was some big accomplishment or some strategic alliance that was able to be formed. Do you have anything for us? Vince: You know, I have a lot of stories for you, and if we've got time, I can tell you, actually, more than one great example. I kind of paint a couple of stories for you here. But there was one particular instance where, you know, we were getting into the cloud space and competing directly against Google for email business, and this was at a time when Google was going into the cities, and they were the cool, new, you know, shiny, new object, I guess, if you will, and Microsoft was just moving...I don't even think we called it Office 365 yet. It might have just been called BPOS which was Business Productivity...That was the original name for Office 365. And we were looking for partners to help us be successful in that market and recruited a partner of Google's, one of their launch partners for the Gmail product to the Microsoft ecosystem, but I had trouble getting that partner engaged with the sellers in the public sector business because they were averse to working with anybody that worked with a competitor. And so, I really had to break down some barriers. My team had to break down some barriers to demonstrate that that partner would firewall their Google business from our Microsoft business and that they wouldn't share information between the entities so that if they were gonna work with us on an account, they would not work with a competitor and vice versa and that they would firewall any information they knew. And it took some time, but that partner wound up being very successful, being a Partner the Year, getting elevated in status. They're now what they call a National Solution Provider or NSP, and they won Partner of the Year Award in Education, and they were just spotlighted in the healthcare business for a great success that they've had in the healthcare business this past year. And so that was one example. Jen: That's great. Vince: I had another example too that I wanted to share, too. Jen: Yeah, please. Vince: I was thinking about this one, and this one was, again, in the government space, but it was a large systems integrator, whose name will, you know, go unmentioned here. But this systems integrator was an influencer in their market but very vendor-agnostic. They didn't partner with other organizations, but they became a big fan of Microsoft, and this led to...And again, this was persistent. This was like years and years of working with them, meeting with them, getting them in to engage with our teams that they really became the big fan of the technology when we released Surface, when we started moving to Azure and the cloud. And we developed this strategic alliance and started to co-develop some very cool technology around security, and it was through some of those agencies and government that we really can't talk further about, but you know who they are, and they went from being very vendor-agnostic to being raving fans and creating an alliance and strong partnership with Microsoft that took off. And I was actually reminded that when I was trying to kinda bring this partner along. I had a very senior Microsoft sales leader at the time say to me, don't waste my time with them. "They're not gonna partner with us. That's not their approach." And that person's no longer with Microsoft, but we persisted. Again, persistence, trying to drive the right outcome for the business, and you know, just having the end in mind in terms of what we need to do in order to be successful. Jen: It's actually a really good segue. I love hearing success stories. The benefit of having channel sales and marketing professionals on this show is also to hear about some of the problems, some of the mistakes that have been made over the years, so that we can make sure, you know, we teach those and those mistakes aren't made again. Are you willing to share any mistakes or problems you've seen business leaders have to deal with when managing alliances for their business? Vince: Yeah. That's quite a bit of what I do on "The Ultimate Guide to Partnering" is I try to uncover the pitfalls as well as the success stories. And on both sides of this equation, it comes down to not really understanding or having a common vision of what the outcome needs to be and not understanding each other's operating model. So in the case of partners that are looking to engage with companies like Microsoft, and this is true of other tech giants, is it's just not understanding, you know, the cadence of the business like when is a good time to engage, when it's not a good time because it's the end of a quarter or end of the fiscal year. It's thinking that just because you are a partner that "you're just going to get all these leads and access to customers where these big companies have lots and lots and lots of partners," and they can't just open up the doors. It would erode their customers' confidence in them if they did that, so it's understanding how to best engage with a field organization. And again, it comes back to this kind of being in it for the long haul, understanding the mutual outcomes that you're looking to drive, and being in it together. In the case of Microsoft...Again, it comes back to...I'd mentioned that one partner, particularly Google partner. Sometimes, the field sales organizations don't want to collaborate with a partner that they see as being somewhat competitive to them because they offer other offerings. And in today's world in this time of rapid transformation, you need everybody, actually, to help drive your business, and so you have to be a little bit more open to the conversation and maybe firewall the conversation so that we're specifically going after this particular outcome together, and maybe we're competitors someplace else. Jen: I think, you know, a lot of what you touched on regarding, you know, those challenges or the way to really approach an alliance or a partnership, it's really cultural in nature. And you know, for me, I see that as this is...that's top-down, right? That's the leadership of the organization and from the CEOs level going down into the organization of making sure that there is a culture of partnership, that there's the understanding of "why," why are we doing this, learning from each other, looking at the KPI's that we're gonna be holding our team accountable to and ensuring that they are the right sort of KPI's, you know? But also, I talk to people all the time who go, "Wait a minute. I'm just a cog in this machine. I have a job to do." And so, do you have any advice you would give somebody for, you know, who really wants to build partnerships successfully, build partnerships with transparency, and the way that you're suggesting, when they've been inserted into and organization and maybe don't have the opportunity to craft that culture from the onset? 16:20 Vince: That's a really good question, and I think you're right. It comes from the top-down in the organization. And I see this way too often where sellers are very good at one specific function, and that's calling on the end customer. And in many cases, some of those best sellers, bestselling people, best sales people are the ones that are also, I'll call them control freaks for lack of a better term here, and they don't want anybody else involved with their account, and anything that's introduced into the account is an issue. I would say to those sellers or sellers that are in an organization that thinks that way is that you have to think differently, right? You have to really think about the adage of, you know...I can't think of this term. I'm gonna come back to that one. But just the adage that I mentioned earlier about one plus one equals three or more because it really is a collaboration leads to a greater set of outcomes for you and for the customer. And it leads to raving fan customers as well as a partner that will collaborate with you and bring you into opportunities later on versus kind of having the blinders on and saying, "No, I want to control this account. I don't want the partner involved." Not being willing to kinda give up the reins or give up control of the outcome or the time frame for the outcome to happen is a reason why a lot of people are unsuccessful working in partnerships with other organizations. Jen: Well, there's certainly a lot of fear. I think that that control freak, sort of, nature, you know, that you're talking about comes from this fear of, "I'm not gonna be successful," or "Someone's gonna encroach on my work or what I'm doing." And I guess, it's up to those leaders to, you know, set the culture but also identify the processes, procedures, provide the tools and resources so that everyone's worst fears, whatever they are, get them all out on the table, "Okay, what are you most worried about happening? And let's make sure that those things don't happen," or "Let's just dispel this rumor, okay? This is not...That is never gonna happen. Don't worry about that." Because I think, it just comes down to trust, and people want to feel like, you know, they're being taken care of by their organization. And when you bring a partner into the mix...sometimes, if you haven't had experience working collaboratively with partners, you know, I think that could be a little bit daunting for some folks. Vince: It is, and then it's also knowing just that this is a relationship. This is an ongoing long-term relationship. It's not transactional. Before Microsoft evolved the cloud business, there were some people at Microsoft that only engage with the partner that was transacting the Enterprise Agreement. And so, I would get the phone call around this time of year, which is the end of Microsoft's fiscal year, and that was the only time the sales person wanted to talk to the partner person. And of course, it was really...they were really ready to just jump on them because the order hadn't come through yet. Rather than building that relationship, having lunch once a month to discuss account strategy and account planning, all the things that should have happened, these people were just really in the moment for the transaction to happen. And it was just about that time of year or that time of the cycle versus having this ongoing relationship. You mentioned trust, building trust, having transparency, a mutual respect for each other's business, and business cadence and you know, set of outcomes. What's in it for me? Knowing each other's wins is so important, right, that that radio station, WIIFM, you know, What's In It For Me, that both organizations have, right? Each organization has its own business and set of outcomes that they're trying to drive against, and understanding that mutual respect is just so important to success. Jen: There's something else I want to ask you about, and a lot of the people that we talk to, you know, here at Allbound are either, they're in one of two camps...they either are have been hired to enter an organization and literally breathe life back into the channel partner program. So in those cases, it's typically the company has some kind of a partner program that really wasn't very well architected. Maybe they kind of fell backwards into it, right? Someone comes to them, and says, "I wanna refer your business," or "Let's cut a little bit of a deal." And the beginnings of a partner program are put into place and other folks kinda jump on board, and then it becomes its own living beast, and now, someone's got to come in and wrangle it. So we talk to a lot of people that are in that kind of world, and then we talk to folks who mostly, you know, at rapidly growing SAAS companies that have gone...their go-to-market strategy has been direct, but now, they have these goals to start a channel program. They're starting from scratch, and it's just this open field, like of, you know, what do they want to build? And I'm wondering if you have any advice for either one of those people. I don't know if that advice would be different or if it would all be rooted in the same. If you can kind of like think back to sort of the beginnings of what it's like to start building something. What advice do you have to give these people who are setting out to build a successful channel partner program? Vince: It's a really great question. I think about just how, culturally, the organization has to think differently, right? And in both of those examples, right? So we had a program, why wasn't it working, you know? Maybe it was that conversation we're just having earlier about mutual trust and respect. A lot of times, I see organizations, they wanna go fix something, and they think that one particular individual could come in as the new channel chief and just that person will create some type of magic or hocus-pocus on the situation. It's much more ingrained in the culture of the organization that tops down approach. It has to be buy-in from everyone in the company especially from the financial acumen, the chief financial officer CEO level, all the way down into the field organization. Compensation has to be structured so that sellers win when partners win. That's an important aspect. Compensation drives behavior, right? So if I were to look at a program, an existing program, I want to look at a few things. I would want to interview the partners. I'd wanna interview the sales people. I'd wanna understand where the cultural imbalance was and then design programs and readiness tools and compensation incentive models that drove the right behavior both for internal sellers as well as for partners. And so, that's how I would think about that. I think from this SaaS model, I think it's fairly similar, as well, again for companies that are moving from the Direct model, they're trying to grow through their channel. Again, they have to take a look at their current business model, their revenue streams. You know, what could be changed to drive this mutual behavior, this behavior that drives to a successful outcome ultimately for both the sellers, the partners, and for the customers? Jen: Great, that's wonderful, wonderful advice. And I love that you mentioned compensation because it is what drives, you know, everyone. And if those compensation structures aren't aligned, that can really cause a lot of headaches with the partner program and making sure that program is successful. This has been so great chatting channel with you. Before I let you go, I do put all of our guests through a little bit of a speed round of more personal questions. Are you ready? Vince: I'm ready for this. I've listened to a few of your episodes. I don't know what's coming my way but go for it. Jen: All right. Okay. So first question is, what is your favorite city? Vince: That's a good one. My favorite city is Philadelphia. Jen: Okay, tell me why? What do you love about Philly? Vince: Well, we lived outside of Philadelphia for about 26 years. My kids love Philly. My daughter went to Temple University. It's a city that's on the rebound which is what I love about it, and it's become my new favorite place. Although I love Washington DC and spend a lot of time there, Philly has got this new exuberance about it, and I love the phoenix rising from the ashes. And I see Philly in much the same way. They're building new skyscrapers, Millennials are moving back in the city at a pretty high clip. It's still an affordable city and a very livable city, and they have great, great restaurants. Lot of great BYOBs, and just they're underrated in many ways but just a great little city. Jen: And pretty much...I went to Philly once and all I did was eat when I was there. Vince: It's a common thing to do in Philly. Jen: Right. Okay, question number two, would you consider yourself an animal lover? Vince: I am. I am, actually. I didn't grow up an animal lover, so that's a great question. I didn't have a dog until about 15 years ago, and we had 2 dogs up until a couple weeks ago. We'd lost...one of them just, you know, passed, and so I've learned to love dogs. And I've learned a lot about life through dogs and just giving back to them and just getting all that love and loyalty that you get from a dog. Jen: Yeah. Sorry to hear about that loss. What kind of dogs? What breed? Vince: Shih Tzu and Shih Tzu-Bichon blend were the two dogs we had. Jen: Oh, yeah. Fluffy, fuzzy. Vince: Fluffy, fuzzy. And the other reason why I didn't have dogs when I was younger, I had really bad allergies as a kid, and so they're hypoallergenic and they're just, you know...they're terrific dogs. Jen: Yeah. Okay, next question, Mac or PC? Vince: Well, PC. Jen: I should've known, right? Vince: Yeah, you know, I do...I'm a huge fan of the Surface, and I knew Panos Panay at Microsoft when he released it and just, you know, still a super fan. Although, I will tell you that I have iOS. I have an iPhone, and I do love the apps and the finished quality of the apps. Jen: Excellent, and last question, let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to? Vince: I'm a real beach person, so, you know, it's probably gonna be Saint Barths, but there's this other piece of me that wants to be on the coast of like Sicily right now...and eating great Italian food, so I'm gonna go with Sicily instead of Saint Barths, how's that? Jen: Yes. Well, Sicily, right? So you can...there's water, right, and the food. You get the best of both worlds. Vince: That's right. Beautiful blue water and great Italian cooking, so, you know... Jen: Perfect. Vince: Well, thanks so much for taking some time with me and with our listeners today. It was great. If anyone would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Jen: So I have become a fan of social, and in fact, just...really getting the hang of Twitter but my Twitter handle is @vincemenzione, that's V-I-N-C-E-M-E-N-Z-I-O-N-E. I can also be reached at LinkedIn and Facebook at the same handles and on Instagram, as well, and then my email address is vincemenzione, without any dots or dashes, @gmail.com. Vince: Perfect. Jen: Thank you, Jen. This has been a great pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. Vince: Again, thank you for your time today, and thanks to everyone for listening, and we'll catch you next week with an all-new episode. Man: Thanks for tuning into the Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com, and remember, #NeverSellAlone

Zach Selch, VP of Global Sales at PharmaJet joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner channel goals, growing a channel, educating your partner sales reps and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast.   Announcer: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host Jen Spencer as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to the "Allbound Podcast," the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners. Jen: Hi everyone, welcome to the "Allbound Podcast." I am Jen Spencer and today I am joined by Zach Selch who is the VP of Global Sales at PharmaJet. And if you don't know Zach, he's been working in sales for the last 30 or so years, and with a lot of that time spent in the channel we're gonna have a ton to talk about with him. Zach, you've just recently transitioned into your role as VP of global sales at PharmaJet, and I know you're working on building up new channels, expanding, and empowering existing channels. Before we get into all the meat we're gonna talk about today, can you share a little bit about PharmaJet and about your role in the company? Zach: Sure. So PharmaJet is a company that was put together to develop and sell needle-free injection technology for the vaccine market. And the basic idea is that you have literally billions of people getting vaccines, and there are a lot of dangers involved with the needles. They make it a little bit less safe. There are issues with disposing of needles. There are issues of accidental sticks, those types of things. And there's also advantages with vaccine to where in the flesh, where in the layers of the skin or the muscle you deliver your vaccine. So if you can make it easy to deliver the vaccine in the right part of the body, you can make it more effective with less training. So that's essentially what we do. And right now our focus really is in growing the international vaccine market as well as the domestic flu market. Jen: That is very, very interesting. And I love this innovative approach to medicine. So channel comes up in this? I think there's so many different interesting applications of growing a channel. You know, what's kind of the overview of your role there? What are you setting out to achieve for PharmaJet? Zach: This is an interesting product for a couple of reasons. When we're dealing with the international market, we're looking really at ministries of health; government. And, you know, when you're selling to a government, they're...it can be a long sales process. You don't really have a relationship, you're looking at a very, say, long investment in the issue of developing trust. And when you're dealing with a channel, you're essentially onboarding the trust and the relationship that that channel's already developed with your customers.   So if you know who your customer's going to be...and in this case I do, it's a very specific part of the Ministry of Health of countries and you can find the right channel. So you find somebody who's actually selling to them another product today has been delivering the trust, they know that they're delivering good product and, you know, they're honest and so on and so forth. If I could get those type of channels, that accelerates my sales process, it cuts down my cost of sale because I don't have to be there 20 times. You know, I can manage the ongoing sales process through my channel. So that's the focus of what I'm doing.   Now, domestically, I have a similar thing...or actually, you could say it's similar but almost opposite. In the United States the people who are making decisions about vaccines are much, much more localized and much smaller, and it then goes back to the cost of sale. "Can I actually get out to every clinic or every place where they're going to make...where they're going to be delivering vaccines and make a presentation, develop the relationship, build rapport and trust. Well, if I'm dealing with distributors, our channel partners that have those relationships, they're getting out there, then that is gonna make my sales process a lot easier. Jen: The beauty of a channel. That's great. Zach: Exactly, right. Jen: So, actually, let's dig into that a little bit more, and I'm gonna start by going backwards. So your most recent company, AMETEK, you worked within the Rauland-Borg Division. And when you were there, you grew annual sales from less than $1 million to more than $12 million in 7 years, and you did it without adding any headcount, products, or resources, which that's pretty substantial, right? That's a big accomplishment. So you gotta tell us how were you able to grow your sales that much without adding that headcount and those resources. Zach: Well, so when I came on board to Rauland, which was the division of AMETEK that I was part of, they'd been trying for 40 or 50 years to sell internationally without any real luck, mostly because, you know, they were doing what a lot of companies do. They were taking a regional manager from the US market who thought it might be fun to sell internationally and putting them in the role, right, but without any real experience. And we were locked into probably the wrong model of partners, the wrong profile. And what I like to do in a new role is I always start by asking a few questions: who are we selling to, why are they buying it. And that might sound really elementary, but a lot of people don't do that, and that really is going to define your channel. And as an example with some companies...and this was the case with Rauland. We had a very difficult - not difficult - a complicated product to install and to maintain, and keeping happy customers is very important. So the philosophy from the beginning, had been "Let's find partners who we can trust to handle this very complicated technical installation and provide good technical support. And can they sell what's sort of an afterthought?" So the first thing I did was I looked at this, I said, "Okay, we need people who can do this type of level of technical support." That's great, but you can always buy an engineer. If a distributor doesn't know how to sell, you can't teach them how to sell. But if you tell them you need this type of technical person, "If you wanna be our distributor, you have to have such and such technical person and they have to do this training," then you'd wanna hire him, and in some countries they can hire him for $15,000 or $20,000. In some countries, it might be 50, 60 or $80,000 a year, but those numbers are nowhere near the cost of getting really good sales people.   So the first thing I did was totally revamp what the profile of distributor I wanted was. Now, one thing that I did that was interesting - and it wasn't my choice, but I'm not unhappy I did it - was we decided as a company that in order to maintain our reputation and our credibility, I wasn't going to fire any of the distributors even if I thought they weren't the right distributors. So I inherited something like eight distributors, probably none of whom I would have chosen, and I let one of them go simply because they had nowhere near the bandwidth to cover the territory that was assigned to them, and that was the one distributor I had reason to let go. But everybody else, I really focused on turning them around and we were able to get them, on average, to increase their sales by about 400% and some of them even more than that through, you know, the next step. So after we brought on board new distributors and identified a new paradigm or new model of distribution, I really started off with everybody saying, "Okay, now you're part of our sales organization." This isn't the situation where you are a customer where we're selling you something, you buy it and you do what you want with it. I look at channel as part of my sales organization, which means I wanna know what they're doing, I want information about the funnel, I wanna know who their sales people are, I want either myself or my regional managers to actually know and evaluate the sales people, know how much they're actually working for us. And I started off with, like, KPIs from the beginning of saying, "We have X man hours of selling time around the world. I wanna increase that by about a hundred-fold within three years." And the idea there was that if our distributors were just not really getting out and focusing on us, the existing ones had to increase their sales hours with the product, and the new ones had to commit. And either myself or my regional managers were keeping track of this very diligently, which sometimes isn't that common.   Some people look at the channel and they say, "Well, I'm gonna find a channel in a country and I'm gonna ask them to buy 100 pieces a year and they're gonna buy 100 pieces a year," and they'll sell them and that's all I really need to know. But what I wanted to do and the way I liked to work was really know how they're selling, how the different people are, and it goes really in-depth. I mean, we would do evaluations all of their salespeople on a regular basis for training needs. We would do a lot of sales training and we would push people to take different courses. I would send out summaries of business books that I've read and I'd say, "Okay, I believe this is a little piece that could help you out."   On a regular basis, I would talk to distributor owners and I would say, "Look, John just isn't really the right guy. You don't have to fire him, but you have to take him off my product and replace him with somebody else." And I would do that, and about two years into the job I had a little rebellion by the existing distributors.   Jen: Oh, really? Zach: And I said, you know... Oh, yeah. They said... And what's funny is at this point after 10 years, they loved me and they were making a lot of money. But for the two-year mark, they all actually got together, the old distributors, the ones I inherited, they actually got together and they decided that they were gonna go to my boss and say that they didn't wanna work with me anymore. And, you know, my boss supported me on that, and then I went to them and I said, "Look, I'm gonna fire one of you. I don't know which one yet, but you don't either. And if you guys don't wanna work according to the way I say, there's a good chance you're gonna lose our line. So you'll have to decide if it's worth it, you know, because you wanna exert your independence if you wanna lose the line."   And it was a big, you know, standoff, got a little tense, but then they all decided that they would change the way they worked, that they would cooperate. And, you know, some of them ended up making a great deal of money afterwards because they were selling more. And all I really wanted from them was to do things to help them sell more, but at the time they thought, you know, I was really intruding into their independence, right. They didn't like that I was asking them for too much information, I was pushing them too much.   So that's really, that's the short of it, was finding the right new distributors. You know, and being my distributor, the ones I recruited, I would probably interview anywhere from 6 to 10 distributors for every territory before choosing one. We would really give them instructions in terms of how much training they had to do, how many sales hours, what type of reporting they had to do and that kind of thing. And, you know, they always thought this was a little much, but on the other hand by asking for them for a lot, they understood how serious we were. And then we would do things with them like get them together for periodic trainings. We would do...we divided up the world into four territories, so we would get the groups of people together on a regular basis. On odd years, we would get the local groups together. So we would have a South American Sales Conference one year and then we would have a global sales conference on the second year, and that gave a lot of opportunities for the distributors to talk to each other and exchange information.   And because I was pretty aware between myself and my RM's, of the different people's strengths and weaknesses, we could do things like say, "Okay, Turkey has the same problem that Australia's having now and they overcame it. I'm gonna have them sit together at dinner and I'm gonna, you know, throw out a little introduction and mention that problem and see if I can get them to have a conversation about it," and those type of things. And we really got different channels to support each other and share information and become very, very friendly, and also really have a feeling of belonging to a family.   And that, I think, was very powerful, because there were expenses involved. You know, we were flying people to global sales conference every two years and we were flying to a regional sales conference every two years and we would ask them to send their people to sales training and stuff like that, but you know, by asking them for that investment we made them really buy into our system and they sold a lot. That really drove sales.   Jen: Well, I mean, like you said, you looked at your channel partners and these distributors as an extension of your sales team, which is great, and that's exactly what everyone should do. And what I really like about, you know, your story is that you went in, you did research, you gathered data from these new partners to see what was working and then used that to coach the existing partners, because I think the situation that you were in where you had these partners that you inherited, right, that use it and go and sort of prospect and select, it's very, very similar to somebody walking in and now managing a sales team and inheriting reps. You know, this story, we could take out the word 'channel', take out the word 'distributor', we're just talking about managing expectations with the sales team. But I think there's a lot of people that have been in your shoes or are in them now, and for some reason when we talk about people selling for us, with us, partners, most folks tend to be a little bit hesitant to be that aggressive, because it's almost like firing a volunteer, right? So people get a little anxious about it, but you have limited time and resources. Zach: Right, and what's really interesting, I always say, is almost every case...and you could even say every case. I mean, almost every case, your distributor, if he's any good, if he or she are any good, they're richer than you are, they make a lot more money than you are, they might have more experience in exactly what they do, right. So, you know, when I try and explain this to people I say, "Yeah, I'm having a conversation with this guy and I say, you know, I really want you to do this, because you're gonna be more successful," and he says, "Zach, how did this year go? My boat's 100 feet long, how long is your boat? Don't tell me..." right? And that's the type of thing it's a very sensitive point. You know, I had a distributor who I love now and I was able to get their sales up by almost 400%, and he was 75 when I took over at Rauland, and he was the only sales asset for his company covering a large country, and he was great. I said to him, I said, "Look, if you die, your company is worthless to me, and your family is gonna be in trouble. So I need you to start hiring sales people and training them, because you wanna be able to sell your company to leave something for your family." And he was furious with me, right? But I was able to drive him to hire professional sales people and other people and build his company, and we ended up building up by 300-400% of sales, which was good for me, and then when he wanted to retire he had something to sell. But you get that, and he was looking at me like I'm his kid. Why should I be telling him what to do?   Jen: Right, it's great. And you know, between building these teams and...you know, you were talking before about putting partners together at the same table, getting them to learn from each other. It reminds me of...there was a blog post you wrote that was on LinkedIn, it was called "Hobbies and Selling." So for everybody, after you're done with the podcast, go to LinkedIn, connect with Zach, you can see this article. But you talk about the benefits of seeking help from sources other than your own. And in this particular piece you talk about weight lifting, how you were able to really break a plateau, a sales rep who was able to outsell his peers two to one, all by innovating, right, and listening to other people, to someone else's innovation, then using their expertise to kinda change a tactic to fill a need. I'd love to know, you know, how do you see this translate in the channel, because today, channels are not as much two-way streets anymore, they're becoming these very complex ego systems. Love to hear your thoughts on this. Zach: So just to repeat the story, sort of, I learned when I was probably 25 or so. I had a channel and there was this guy, a salesman, who was taking notes in a very unusual way. And none of this...and his boss had sent everybody to this class to learn how to take notes, and he was the only one who adopted it. And then later on in the year I found out that he was by far the best performer in his team, right. Like, he outperformed everybody else in his team by at least two to one.   And I really learned from that the idea of you should always be learning, you should always be honing your skills, taking yourself up, even something as small as note-taking, right. I mean, how many...we all take notes, we all say, "Well, you should ask people questions, you should gather information," right? But if you're not documenting that well, you're not doing your best job, but how many of us go out and really work at note-taking? So I took that as a really important lesson, and that was almost 25 years ago, more or less. So what I try to do every year is, first of all, I try and read probably between 6 and 10 very specific business books every year, and they're usually on a subject, open-ended questions for instance, or you know, a certain type of way to prepare a slide deck, different things like that. And I'll read the book and, you know, I'll go to a couple of seminars or workshops every year. And what I try and do is then take that stuff and prepare it into training for my channel sales organization, and sort of I see that as part of my job. So what I'll do is I'll say, "Okay, you know, I'm gonna take this 300-page book. I'm gonna take two ideas from it, and then I'm going to set up a webinar, and I'm gonna first train my regional managers, and then I'm gonna train all of the salespeople." And now this also brings another value to the owner or manager, because if I teach them a good trick that isn't related to my product, they're gonna be able to use that selling other products too, right.   So I'm giving them an advantage. I'm increasing my importance and my mind share with the partners, but I'm also giving them a tool that might help them sell a little bit more. And, you know, what I've heard from that is also sometimes it even drives people... You'll have sales people who say, "You know what? I sort of felt that I had everything I really needed, and then you taught me this and I thought, 'Maybe I should be reading my own 10 books a year.'" And it sort of helps convince people to get back onto the self-educating type of path, because that can be...you know, sales people really should be constantly learning, in my opinion, to develop their skills.   Jen: Excellent. I agree. I don't think there's...I mean, think most people do agree with that completely. I wanna pull us...let's pull in, going back to the present. So we've been talking a lot about a lot of your past experience. You're at PharmaJet now, we got to understand a little bit more about what that company's doing. You're partnering with some interesting organizations like the Serum Institute, and its really innovative healthcare. Can you get into a little bit more detail about how your partner program is set up? Because I imagine there's this one layer of education marketing that's going on, there's the distributors, there's like the in-office sales that are happening. I just would love to know, you know, how are you organizing this to really maximize collaborative partnership?   Zach: Well, so it's very interesting. We are essentially selling tools to help deliver vaccines, and vaccines are purchased in a very unusual way. And again going back to what I said before, I really like to try and think from the beginning that your sales organization should be a mirror of how people are buying your particular type of product. So internationally, the people who are buying vaccines and things that have to do with vaccines are a very limited number of people. You have a country that might have 200 million people and the decisions for all their vaccines are being made by 1 or 2 people who are part of their central government. And so what's really important to me is to be able to find those people, give them the information they need, help them understand that they can trust us and then help move forward the sale, right? That's key to me. But I also need... You know, what's gonna happen as I go...you know, let's say I go to Bolivia and I meet with the right person and he loves the product, and then I come back or I go to another city, and then he remembers he has another question, right? He wants to know more information. Well, I don't wanna have to go there 20 times over the course of the sales process.   Now, if I have the right channel who has a good relationship with that guy already and I can make sure that my channel handles all that ongoing questions and the issues and the back and forth along the sales process, that really takes a lot off of me that simply would make the whole sales process not cost-effective. So that's really what I'm looking for.   So, internationally, I'm looking for a very specific, focused type of partner. And of all the products I've ever sold, this is probably the most focused type of partner that I'm looking for in that sense. Now, domestically, there's tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of potential customers for my product in the United States and I need to be able to reach them. I can't afford to do it directly. So again, I need the right channels for that and it will probably involve multiple channels because if you think about who vaccinates in the United States, well, your pharmacy chains vaccinate, your doctors' offices vaccinate, your employers vaccinate, right? And those are probably going to be separate channels, so I need to find the right channels to reach those types of people.   What's very interesting about this is people make decisions about vaccination in a very focused way, time-frame wise. It's almost like selling Christmas trees. You know, if you offer a Christmas tree for $3 in May, nobody's gonna buy it, right? No matter how fantastic the tree is and how great the deal is. People have a very specific timeline where they say, "Well, I have to figure out what I'm doing about flu shots, you know, and I'm gonna make that decision...for the 2018 flu season, I'm gonna make that decision in April of 2017." So what I really need is my channel to be talking to the customer during, you know, a 60-day period about my product, which is on one hand good, because if you say to your channel, "Look, what we really want from you is, every time you go into the customer to remind them about our product, that's asking a lot of the channel. But if you basically say to your channel partner, "Look, once a year during this six-week period, we want you to present our product," that's a very different ask from your channel. The other thing is the starting price of this, you know, a doctor or a pharmacist can really start using this for very little money. So the cost of buy-in for the customer, for the end-user customer, is very low and the return on investment is very clear. So from a channel perspective, I think what I believe has happened with us is, in the past we've made the wrong asks from the channel partners in the United States, which has sort of slowed down our sales. But I think what we really need to be asking from them is a very, very doable, reasonable, focused sales process, you know, very, very reasonable, and the return is, in my mind, very obvious.   So, well, that's sort of where I am. I've been getting a lot of very positive feedback from both international and domestic channels that see this as a great addition to their portfolio.   Jen: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you've made a ton of headway in a short period of time, and I'll be anxious and eager to catch up with you a little bit later down the road and see how things are going. Maybe we can have you back for a recap of what's transpired. Zach: Oh, that would be great. Jen: Wonderful. Well, before we wrap this up, Zach, at the end of my podcast, I like to ask folks some more personal questions about themselves just so we can get to know you a little bit better. So if you're up for it, I've got four simple questions for you. Zach: Sure! Jen: All right. So first question is what is your favorite city? Zach: Oh, wow. You know what? I live in Evanston, Illinois, and having traveled around a lot...like, I've done business in more than 100 countries, I've lived in 4 or 5 countries. This is a very, very comfortable place to live. So if you're asking me what's the best place to live, I'm very happy at Evanston, Illinois. Jen: Okay. That works. Second question, do you consider yourself an animal lover? Zach: I have a corgi, and yes. So I did not think that I would love a little furry dog, but I am very, very fond of my corgi, yes. Jen: What is your corgi's name? Zach: Wingate.   Jen: Oh, nice, very nice. Zach: Yeah, Wingate was a British World War II general, so I gave my kids a list of potential generals they could choose from and they chose Wingate. Jen: That's hysterical. The way that I name pets in my house is authors' names. I was an English major, and so... Zach: There you go. Jen: Always funny hearing how people come up with their pets' names. Okay, next question, Mac or PC? Zach: PC. I have never been a Mac fan. Jen: All right, and last question. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expense paid trip. Where would it be to? Zach: Oh, wow. Probably Cambodia. I have never been, and it's someplace my wife really wants to go, is probably Cambodia. Jen: I like that the decision is based on where your wife would like to go. I think that's a great answer, Zach. Zach: You gotta keep your wife happy. There you go. Jen: Awesome. Well, thanks so much for sharing your experiences, your insights, it was a pleasure. If any listeners want to reach out to you personally just to kinda follow up, connect with you, what's the best way for them to do that?   Zach: So I would just suggest reaching out to me on my LinkedIn profile, there's contact information there. You can send me an email or a personal message through LinkedIn. Just to make sure it's clear, because I don't know how this appears on your site, my last name is Selch. That's Sierra, Echo, Lima, Charlie, Hotel, and my first name is Zach. So if you look me up on LinkedIn, you'll find me and you can reach out to me.   Jen: Perfect, yeah. Be sure when you reach out to Zach, let him know you heard him on the podcast so he has frame of reference. That will help, and you'll wanna do that so you can also check out that article, and he's got others up there too that are great as well. Zach: Yeah, thank you. Jen: So thanks, Zach, go ahead. Zach: Oh, I was just gonna say I put up a series of articles about hiring a regional manager that I'm very proud of. So that's something...you know, I'd suggest people...if they wanna read it, they're more than welcome to.   Jen: Wonderful. I recommend that as well. So thank you again for joining us, and thanks everyone else for listening in, and we'll catch you next time with an all-new episode of the "Allbound Podcast." Have a great day. Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to the "Allbound Podcast." For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com, and remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Justin Gray, CEO and founder at LeadMD, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner relationships and breakups, trusting data, success in the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Transcription   Man: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host, Jen Spencer, as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, the fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound, and today I am joined by Justin Gray, who is CEO and founder of LeadMD. Welcome, Justin.   Justin: Thanks for having me.   Jen: Well, it's so good to have you, and for those of you who are listening who don't know, Justin brings a lot of expertise, I'm really excited to have him on the podcast. In addition to being the CEO and founder of LeadMD, he's also a weekly columnist at Inc., the CEO and cofounder at Six Bricks, managing partner at Gray Matter Ventures, partner at Grayson Organics, and CMO and cofounder at PaidSuite. That's a lot. You're a busy, busy man.   Justin: It's a mouthful.   Jen: Yeah. I'm sure our listeners are going to be able to gain a wealth of knowledge from you. So, Justin, tell us a little bit about these companies that you work with.   Justin: Sure, I've kind of picked different organizations up along the way almost by accident, but, really, the centerpiece organization that I'm a part of is LeadMD, a digital marketing consultancy. Out of that kind of sprung the need to educate and match great marketers with employers, and that's what Six Bricks does. I've since formed a little venture, a very little venture organization called Gray Matter Ventures that I'm using to feed organizations, including Six Bricks. Then I've got some other ventures in the payments world, and then a very unprofitable labor of love known as Grayson Organics, which is actually my family's farm that we converted into organic in 2008 and have been running small field crops ever since.   Jen: That's awesome. So, what we talk about here on the show is partner programs and partner channels. And, so being a founder, a cofounder, on the executive team of these organizations, you have a lot of experience running companies and contributing to these organizations. In your experience, when do you think the best time is to start a partner channel program?   Justin: Yeah, it's kind of like that old question of when's the best time to plant a tree? Twenty years ago, the second best today. Obviously it does depend on the business model. The payments business that I'm a part of operates exclusively through the channel, so we started that organization with the notion that we would be managing and maintaining a completely outsourced sales channel to sell and implement our products. So, look at the model through which you want to sell, if that's going to be totally outsourced to the channel, or if that's going to be a blend.   Have a consorted channel strategy right from the beginning and tackle really difficult questions like who's going to market on behalf of the organization, are you going to do it from a corporate level, are you going to shove that down to and empower the franchisees or channel partners to do that on their own behalf? Those are decisions that are always best made right upfront, and so I think just as with anything, developing a really strong strategy from the beginning and executing towards that consistently is what we see as a recipe for growth.   Jen: Would you mind sharing why you decided to sell exclusively through channel for that organization?   Justin: Yeah, so sales is all about trust, and that particular organization, which is PaidSuite, sells integrated payment products. So we looked at the marketplace and we could've formed our own inside sales channel and tried to penetrate the market from scratch, but, instead, we chose to actually partner with software organizations and ISOs that already had existing relationships and add our suite of products to their repertoire. So, it just really allowed us to break down those trust barriers, accelerated our speed to market, and led to a good deal of success within that business. I think, had we chosen to try to kind of brute force it and spin up our own inside sales channel, it would've been a much longer time to market. It would've been a lot more investment on education and training, and just empowering that force. So, again, it was the right decision for us based on what we wanted to accomplish in the business within our first 24 months.   Jen: Oh, it makes perfect sense, absolutely. I think what's really cool about you and your perspective is that you have that business where you are going to market through these partners, but then with LeadMD, you are a partner of many technology organizations that I know a lot of our listeners would know about. And, so you get to see both sides of it, and that, I think, brings this other layer of expertise to you that a lot of people don't have. Most people pretty much live on one side of the fence or the other.     Justin: Right. Yeah, actually, one of our strongest verticals is channel sales. We've got organizations like Blue Cross Blue Shield, we've got a lot of med device organizations, Mobi, just organizations that are dependent upon that extra layer of support, and again that provides a lot of interesting challenges from a marketing standpoint. It presents a lot of opportunities to empower those sales channels, educate them, and, obviously, we got to keep them up-to-date on the quickly evolving world that we all live in. So, definitely a huge amount of opportunity, and then we really do see the folks that are empowering their channel partners through marketing and through education. That's a strategic advantage for our organization, absolutely.   Jen: Let's talk more about that. With all of your experience, I'm sure you've created a number of strategic alliances that have been fruitful. Maybe you've even seen some that have fell flat, whether they're partnerships that you've been a part of or that you've been supporting from an agency perspective. I'm wondering if there was any sort of recipe or repeating factor that you could recognize in a partner or in a partnership that would signal this makes sense, this is a mutually beneficial alliance.   Justin: Yeah, and that's always a really difficult prediction to have right upfront. My crystal ball is broken, so what may seem like a great partnership where everyone's aligned and we're going to go to market together and achieve this awesome amount of success is often not the case. You really need to be careful about whether this is going to be truly a value equation, as we term it, presenting equal value on both sides. And, so we've tried to get more formalized throughout the years at LeadMD as we've taken a look at the types of partners that we would potentially want to work with, the types of partnerships that have worked well in the past, and really gauge new potentials on that scale. So, we've actually kind of developed a partner evaluation framework that we leverage when we're looking at a new partner.   Having worked with over 3,000 B2B technology organizations, we have a lot of folks that want access to our customer base, but that isn't always a as I mentioned a balanced equation. We're often not getting the same amount as we're putting in there, so we've kind of tried to really hone in on what makes a successful partnership. For us, it really does come down to the fact of can we wrap services around that partner offering? Does it lead to more work, frankly, for our organization? We're a time and materials billing organization, so we need to figure out a way to build clients and provide value. And if the partner solution doesn't enable us to do so, it's a difficult partnership for us. We definitely need to be enabling our customers, and if we can't do that in the form of providing that solution and wrapping our best practices around it, it's not a good solution for us.   Jen: Right, and that's great food for thought for a lot of businesses that are creating these agency partner programs, I'm glad to have that kind of feedback to share with folks. Can you also kind of tell us when you think about the most successful partnerships that you've had, where did they come from? For people that are just starting out and just starting to build their program, is there anything we can learn from some of your most successful endeavors?   Justin: Yeah, our most successful partnership to date is obviously Marketo, and like anything successful in business, I think it comes with a healthy dose of luck. So, there is some unrepeatability around that as well, but I would say that what is a constant between all of our good relationships is we're using that solution in house. We have a relationship with them, they're aligned with our culture and we know that we align from a methodology standpoint. So, I was Marketo's 20th customer way back in 2006. I started using the platform before I was ever a partner at a payments organization, I sold my piece of that payments company, and kind of went out on my own and didn't really know what I wanted to do.   Some folks hit me up and said, "Hey, would you help us build a sales and marketing engine?" and I said, "Yeah, that sounds great, but you're going to have to implement some technologies that I know how to run. So, let's go ahead and implement salesforce.com, let's implement Marketo, and let's really get all of the text back in place to support that repeatable engine." Throughout the years, we kind of grew with Marketo and formed a really strong partnership with them to the point where they would outsource a lot of their work to us. We were participating in deal cycles with their sales reps. We were empowering them where they needed kind of that value engineering consultative approach. A lot of their sales reps just aren't marketing experts, and our folks are. So, we were willing to slot in within that sales process, provide that marketing expertise, and, of course, as a result, we were able to win business.   So, again, it was a win-win throughout that entire life cycle, and that really is why that's our flagship partnership. We've been able to repeat that with a lot of core digital marketing platforms and sales platforms that we brought on. Engagio is probably the newest member of that stable, and, again, we use the software, we see the value in it. We have the expertise in house to really ensure success within the partner orgs that we board on that platform. So, I would say that you can't discount the value of relationships. Relationships really drive everything that we do. I love the way that marketing is currently going, in kind of this quality over quantity aspect, finally. And, at the center of most of those relationships and partnerships is a really tight understanding and alignment that you just don't get when you start taking all-comers.   Jen: Well, I'm glad you mentioned this because you wrote an article fairly recently, and it was called "How to Avoid Getting Eaten Alive by Your Partner Ecosystem." I loved it. If anyone hasn't read it, I recommend when you're done listening, go check it out. It's at leadmd.com/marketplace, we'll also link to it in the show notes. In the article you say, if you want to get to the heart of how well your potential partner performs, become a client first. And, it is really great advice, and I understand from your Marketo story, even from the Engagio perspective, I understand it. Is it a hard and fast rule that you have to use that technology in order to find value? Could you see partnering with an organization if you weren't actually using that product first? Or, is that part of that evaluation criteria that you have?   Justin: I mean, it's one that we feel really strongly about. There's exceptions to every rule, obviously. I would say that there's no better way to really get an understanding of how well that partner treats its customer base, and, therefore, my customer base, than to experience that firsthand. So, we view that as something that's really important to our business. Now, we're also a sales and marketing consultancy who can use all of these products, if a product doesn't have the fit within your stack or within your go-to-market strategy, then I certainly understand that.   It is absolutely my pet peeve when we're up against a competitive deal, and we're up against an agency that doesn't use Marketo themselves. I mean, it's as simple as navigating over to their site and looking at the scripts that are contained on the site. It's like hey, great, you're up against us and a HubSpot partner. Why is the solution that they're proposing to you not good enough for them to use? That's fundamentally part of our sales strategy. We've been using this, we know the ins and outs of it, we don't support any other marketing automation platform, so we feel strongly enough about it to make it an exclusive partner of ours as well. So, we kind of put our money where our mouth is, and, eat our own dog food, drink our own champagne, make up our own bad analogies. It's core to our business. It works for us.   Jen: Yeah, it definitely makes sense. So, back to that article. You mentioned to avoid partnerships where you stand nothing to gain.   Justin: Sounds obvious, right?.   Jen: Yeah, it's obvious. Obvious, right, but, I mean, no one goes into a partnership going, "Well, I'm not going to get anything out of this. Let's jump right in," right? So, it's possible at the start of the relationship everyone's like, "This is going to be amazing," but then as the companies maybe grow, you evolve maybe a partnership becomes one-sided. Maybe you end up doing the heavy lifting without anything in return. Do you have any advice for folks on how to handle that kind of situation? Do you break up? How do you not burn a bridge? Do you hang on hoping there might be something in the long-term that will keep this alive? What advice do you have?   Justin: Yeah, I think there's obviously a couple of facets to that. So, as I mentioned, it sounds super obvious, right, but I would say that there is kind of this aspirational partnership that exists out there. I feel like this happens a lot with big logos. Like, we know they've got a ton of customers and their customers kind of look like our customers. Thinking putting out a press release and putting this logo on our site is going to add so much credibility, but we don't take that extra step to really drill into what are we going to do together? How are we going to realize this value?   I find asking those uncomfortable questions yields the best result. So, yeah, we both operate in the same space, and we've got similar customers, but what are we going to do together, explicitly, tomorrow? Are we going to market together? Are we going to create content? Are we going to do some account planning and alignment exercises? What is success going to look like in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months? How many deals are we going to have boarded? When we board a deal, what is that process going to look like? Am I going to run the majority of the implementation? Do you want to own some as the technology provider?   So, having those really difficult conversations upfront I feel helps to avoid the very difficult conversation down the road where you've been a part of that partnership, you've had the logo on your site for two years, and there's never been anything that's precipitated from that agreement, and now you've got to go back and say, "Hey, this isn't working out." I mean, breaking up is hard to do, so I would say the more that you can really drill in, get explicit, and set up a plan right from jump street, the less you will have to go back and revisit and have those uncomfortable conversations.   So, that's first and foremost. Now, if you haven't done that or things change, conditions change, the landscape looks different, and suddenly you find yourself in that bad position, I think it's best just to use real world data there. Let's look back at the pipeline we've generated together, it's weak to nonexistent. The types of customers that we've boarded maybe are no longer customers, or maybe we weren't able to make those customers happy because of the misalignment of expectations. One of our core tenets is we track everything. If I'm boarding a new partner, I'm tracking that all within CRM. What deals are we working on together? What deals did we swing and miss? What deals did we win? And, then I can pull those reports.   The Marketo partnership has not been all roses and champagne either. Marketo's gone through some pretty big market shifts. During the course of our partnership, they've gone from 20 employees to 1,500 employees. They've gone public, and then they were taken back private. There are major continental shifts that we've seen within that organization, and the org today behaves fundamentally differently than it did when we first rolled out our partnership and I wrote a contract on the back of a napkin. So, as it's progressed, the data has really enabled me to come to those partner conversations and say, "Look, this is data from 2013. Look at the data from '15. You're my largest competitor right now," which at one point Marketo was my largest competitor.   So, you have to be able to back up those shifts with actual data, and what I actually find, certainly within larger organizations, is they're often not well-positioned to gather that data themselves, or there's been so much turnover or process shift internally that they're actually using my dataset as law to describe the success of the partnership. So track everything, and that makes those conversations a little bit easier as you get into that data, and everyone can look at the same thing and agree that, yeah, this isn't working and maybe there's a solution to that, or maybe it's time to go our separate ways. But regardless, we can't blame it on emotion at that point, we want to blame it on something that's tangible, that's real.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations that you've partnered with that have benefited from the fact that you are gathering that kind of data. Unfortunately, for a lot of companies that are growing a million miles a minute it does seem sometimes like an afterthought, just this extra thing to do. But, it is extremely important, especially when you're balancing those resources and trying to figure out where to spend your time. So, do you also use that data that you might have with one partnership to help determine what success looks like in another partnership? Do you keep that internally and leverage that as a baseline?   Justin: Yeah, so we'll introduce that baseline in partnership conversations. We're potentially looking at a new partnership right now, and normally the first question out of my mouth is what does your most successful partnership look like? You can get a big feel for how that process is going to go by the data that they're able to present. If they're more on the fluffy side of, "Well, we do some activities together. They sponsor our trade show every year or our conference. We do some marketing together," I'll know that this is not as data-driven as we want it to be because I want to see sales pipeline.   I want to see the amount of revenue that you've closed together in the last 18 months. What does the joint sales cycle look like? So, absolutely, we've taken that data collection and turned it into a benchmark to which we hold other potential partnerships. The question always exists out there of there's this new company and they don't have a long track record, but we think there's a lot of potential. And, those are going to exist.   When we partnered with Engagio, they were less than 12 months old at that point, but, fortunately, they were made up by the who's who of previous Marketo employees. So, there was some faith that was included within that partnership as well, knowing that Jon Miller's not going to start an organization that's going to tank. Again, that's where you have to kind of leverage those relationships, whether it's data-driven or it's relationship-driven, insight is the key out of either one of those points.   Jen: All right. You could say that that relationship originally came out of good data as well, so that was definitely a very, very, very safe bet. Okay. So, I have one last official channel question for you, and that is, what's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who's really trying to breathe life back into their channel partner program? We see this a lot, we see a lot of organizations who start a program. And they probably under-resourced it, or they expected to do one thing, it does something else, and now they're kind of back at it ready to reinvest. If you could give that person, that organization, or that leader advice, what would it be?   Justin: Yeah, I really do love data, but, moreover, I love getting to the why. I don't just want to hop on a phone call or go to a meeting and ask that question. I want to see it firsthand. So, my number one piece of advice to our internal folks or anyone that's in charge of managing partner relationships is get out there and get embedded within that partner. We love to go out into bullpens and just work for a day and see what those conversations look like at that partner organization. Are they mentioning us? Are they having conversations that we could be assisting but we're not being tapped to come in and be that resource?   I love getting embedded within those environments and just seeing how their process works. Is another partner there when you show up? We've had that happen before. I had one of my competitors literally officing out of Marketo for a while, and we were like, "Wow, we really need to up our game," because they've got a level of access that we're just not taking advantage of right now. So we immediately said, "We'd love to get a cube here and park ourselves two days out of every week." And we flew someone over, and I actually eventually lit up a sales team in San Francisco to be closer to them. That insight would've never come about if I hadn't made a trip over there and just said, "I'm going to sit in your bullpen and see what these conversations sound like." Ultimately, you want to understand what does that sales pitch sound like? Where do they struggle? Where do they need help? Where can I provide some value? Simply saying, "You need to help me sell into your customer base," or, "You need to sell my services," is not going be effective.   Communicating “We have to have a solution-based message. So, when you're running up against this objection, we can help, and I heard your sales reps combat that objection a dozen times when I was out onsite.” So, I really do think that kind of that employee exchange approach is a highly valuable exercise, and, regardless of whether that has to do with partner or any other aspects of the business, I really do encourage our employees to get out there, get embedded with the partner, and understand why aren't we more successful in this partnership? I guarantee you will learn something that you would not have had you not been in that close proximity.   Jen: Absolutely. Gosh, that collaboration is unbelievable. Such good advice, and such an awesome story, too. Now, before we totally wrap this up, at the end of the podcast I always ask people some more kind of personal questions to get to know them a little bit. I make it a speed round, but I don't know how fast we end up really going, but just four questions. Are you up for it?   Justin: Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it.   Jen: Okay, okay. So, first question is what is your favorite city?   Justin: My favorite city is San Francisco, California.   Jen: Me too. I'm going to ask you why. See, I do this, I make it not be speedy because I want to ask more questions.   Justin: I lived in San Francisco for two years, really for the purposes of assisting in LeadMD's growth, and, I was born and raised in Phoenix, Arizona, so probably not the most culturally diverse epicenter in the world. It just blew my mind to be able to walk down the street and get the best food in the world, walk into a networking group and everyone's leaning forward and engaged, and participating in these conversations. It just seemed like everyone wanted to be there, and that's kind of how I describe San Francisco.   You could throw an event in Arizona, and struggle to get five people to show up. I was part of a Bulldog meet up when I was over there, and like 30, 40 people would show up with their Bulldogs every week. And, I was like, "Jesus, I can't get this level of engagement when I'm giving away free training, much less trying to get Bulldogs to show up to a meet up." So, it just seemed very intentional, and I love intentional things.   Jen: So, side note...I'm gonna help you. We're going to lobby together for, like, a high speed train between Phoenix and San Francisco.   Justin: Yeah, absolutely.   Jen: So, that'll be a pet project in our free time, Justin.   Justin: Hyperloop.   Jen: Yeah. The next question for you was going to be are you an animal lover? You mentioned the Bulldogs, so is that a yes?   Justin: I am. Yeah, I love bull breeds, and I love English Bulldogs. I have a 10-year-old English Bulldog named Chubs. It's a girl. I wanted to give her a complex early in life. When that dog's no longer around, I will absolutely be heartbroken. So, yeah, I love animals, love dogs.   Jen: All right. Question number three. Mac or PC?   Justin: Mac, a thousand times.   Jen: Yeah. And, question number four. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip. Where would it be to?   Justin: Oh, that's a really good one. I've got this weird philosophy on life that I love really new experiences in really comfortable places. So, I would actually probably go to St. Thomas. It's my favorite spot on earth, but I'd love to try to figure out some new stuff when I was down there. The last time I was down there we found this little secluded pool that is in this outcropping of rocks on one of the many islands that surround St. Thomas. So, I think it's just one of those places where you can go and find something new every single time, and definitely one of my favorite places on earth.   Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was so awesome getting a chance to talk to you about channel, about partnerships on both sides of that fence. If anyone who's listening would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to get a hold of you?   Justin: I'm looking forward to being the only guest on this show ever that actually loves using Twitter, so you can hit me up at @jgraymatter on Twitter, or you can check us out. Our site leadmd.com. I'd like to say we give away more best practices than most agencies have. So, all of our content's there available for free, and, of course, my contact information is there as well.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you, and thank you all for joining us for The Allbound Podcast. We'll catch you next week with an all-new episode.   Justin: Thanks, Jen.   Man: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And, remember, #NeverSellAlone.

David Belove, CEO at Prodly, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss investing in the channel, compensating your channel sales reps, and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi everybody, welcome to the Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer here at Allbound, and today I am joined by David Belove, who is CEO at Prodly. Most recently he served as Vice President of Sales Operations and Productivity at Nitro. Welcome David. So good to have you on the show today. Can you share a little bit about yourself and about kind of some of the roles you played in sales operations?   David: Well, first of all, I've had three distinct careers. I started out as a marketing professional and then I had a sales career, and now I'm refocused on sales operations. So that spanned almost three decades. So I've been making that transition from marketing to sales to sales operations over the last 10 years, I would say.   Jen: That's great.   David: I'm just going to stay in that process so I moved from selling hardware to software and now I'm to the SaaS software.   Jen: I love that, you know, you've had experience in the marketing side, sales, sales operations. I think it's great today to have that breadth of knowledge. You know when it comes to SaaS… you mentioned that you are at Nitro, you had roles at Apttus and eFolder and Cloud9 Analytics. You're pretty well-versed in SaaS sales at this point and I'm curious, you know, over the course of your career, what are some consistencies that you've seen that have really created successful SaaS partner channels? Because selling SaaS through partners and with partners can be different from selling traditional software or hardware even?   David: So, several things come to my mind. One of them would be that, vendors in particular but also that channel partners have to have a super clear picture of their go-to-market strategy. So if you think about go-to-market strategy as where you define your market segmentation. And then the way you pursue these segments, you've got to have a really clear picture in mind so that everybody knows what their role is. And the goal is to avoid sending conflicting messages to your partners and to your direct sales team. You want them to play nicely together. So for example, at Nitro, partners play a pretty clear role. Nitro has Geographic and that's a small company, has geographic and language coverage limitations. And so partners are absolutely crucial in many parts of the world. But also, you know, having a clear picture of which verticals you can cover yourself and which vertical partners have to have expertise to cover for you, or situations like integration. If your product involves integration with other products, partners are going to be really important. It's really hard for a vendor to cover every different instance from an integration perspective. So, in all three of these cases you would have a really clear ROI, and that would make it much easier to explain what your partner's role is in. But that's one point, it's understanding the roles.   And then, the second point would be making sure that you have dedicated marketing and sales resources assigned to the channel. And it's kind of hard because, most especially when you first get going, and in particularly in a SaaS environment where direct sales tend to be the first approach to the market and dedicating these resources is kind of hard to justify. It's an investment because the bookings are probably going to be coming from the direct sales initially and so you're kind of betting on the [come?] that the channels gonna contribute. But if you don't have dedicated channel marketing and channel sales resources you'll never gonna make any progress.   So, one quick story - at Apttus, we were very interested in signing up SI's to help us with not only opportunity generation but implementation. And so we kicked off the program but we didn't have the implementation training programs put in place, and so nothing really happened. We were disappointed with the results. Once those training programs were put in place everything at the top of the funnel started to fall in place.   Jen: That makes a lot of sense. I was really kind of like really curious about… you made a kind of statement about how channel can allow a SaaS organization to not pivot but to kind of expand into another part of business that maybe they couldn't previously move into. Like, whether that's moving from targeting small and medium size businesses to enterprise or going the opposite direction enterprise down to a more of an SMB market. I know that there's... It's one thing to say, “Okay, let's bring on this partners and they're gonna have this expertise so they're gonna get us into these deals or they're gonna get us into these opportunities.” I wonder if you can share a little bit about what makes that kind of a shift or taking event into that kind of opportunity successful. What does an organization need to do in order to really embrace that kind of opportunity to expand beyond a target market that they've already sort of claimed?   David: Yeah. Well, it's tough but it would be similar to expanding into a new geography or if you are expanding your product line, those are both examples of investments that you have to make. Well, expanding your go-to-market strategy to include channels is similar. You've got to be willing to invest, putting in place that dedicated channel resources and training programs and being willing to essentially share the market with your partners is critical.   Jen: What else do you think is really critical for a channel leader who's working on maybe building out or exchanging a channel partner program? Maybe there's… there's a lot of folks we talk to who, you know, they've got these channel partner programs. They sort of were created almost organically, maybe not a lot, maybe not very intentional, and now they've got these program and things are maybe a little bit out of whack or a little bit out of sync. What do you think are some of the most critical elements that a leader should consider when going into... I mean, I hate to use the word "repair," but really optimize their channel program?   David: You know, I think there are various reasons why things break down or need to be optimized, to put it in a positive way. One would be having vague agreements with your partners. If partners are not fully committed to your program, if you don't understand their motivations, there's going to be a problem. The second thing is making sure that you're properly motivating them. Do you have a compensation program for them that makes sense? I mean, moving into SaaS is hard for everybody. Especially if you are transitioning from software, to perpetual software, to SaaS, all of the sudden your revenues are stretched out over a longer period of time. Well, the same thing happens to the channel. They're going through this transition where instead of booking everything upfront, now their revenues are booked over a long period of time, or recognized over a long period of time. So understanding that there's going to be some shared pain there, and making sure that your partners are willing to accept that pain that transition is critical. And not everyone is willing to do that and so you've got to pick your partners carefully. I think one critical role or one idea is to focus on partners who get it. Focus on partners who have accepted the SaaS model and are compensating their sales people that way and are making the transition themselves.   Jen: Yeah. I think that's really a good advice because you really got to work, you know, with you and your partner, vendor and partner have to work as a team together. You really wanna make sure those partners are really on the same page that you are for certain… that makes a lot of sense. And I'd love to hear a little bit more about... you know, it's so interesting to me, I sort of started sorting this sentence okay, and how do I frame this? So when I think about sales operations, this is a very growing field right now. I feel like I'm seeing more and more organizations invest in sales operations.   David: Yup.   Jen: And I'm really focusing on being productive, being efficient, maximizing resources. You know, probably a lot of this has to do with things like growing technology stacks, things like geographically dispersed workforces. So I looked at sales operations professionals as being the fixers in an organization, right? So, it's like, here's what we wanna do…   David: Yeah.   Jen: … and like, all right? Like, we got to go to this, it's like you're an engineer, like help kind of construct this and make sure we think kind of stays inline. So I'm sure you've seen a lot of challenges. I'd love to know about some of the big challenges that you've seen when it comes to management and collaboration of direct and indirect sale programs. People talk about channel conflict a lot. We talk about, you know, how do you continue to have harmony between your direct and your indirect efforts. But you probably see the pain more than anybody else in operations?   David: Yes. Like you've said, we're often tasked with straightening it out, because in some sense we're the Switzerland in that situation where…   Jen: Right.   David: … we, you know, supporting both the channel group and the direct group. But it comes down to a couple of things. One is we have to be able to integrate a channel into the CRM system, so to speak, with the sale stack. And so, it's an extra complexity when you've got to be able to measure channel leads and channel bookings, and be able to integrate that with the direct channel, and know how things are attributed. So do these come from a channel partner or does it come from a direct source? Which one was inbound, which one was contributing? So there's lots of attribution issues. There are CRM tracking issues. And then there are sales process things like, how do you roll out a new price book? You can't forget the channel.   Jen: Right.   David: You're gonna have probably two price books instead of just one. And these are things that a lot of times that SaaS providers are not accustomed to. So, during the integration, and thinking about the channel, whenever you make changes and whenever you plan a new enhancement is really important. The second aspect is in terms of compensation. How do you compensate your channel managers? And a lot of times you have to think about these in terms of their contributions. Is the channel the source of the opportunity or is the channel manager essentially reacting to an opportunity that a direct sales person has located or essentially playing matchmaker. In those two cases, you might want to pay them a different amount of money or a different percentage of the deal. So compensation is an issue, integrating the pipeline, the funnels of the two channels, direct and partners. So there are lots of implications.   Jen: Do you have any war stories you can share with us? Anything maybe that you've experienced that was a major lesson learned or at times maybe you painted yourself into a corner?   David: Well, I think the one that comes to mind would have to do with compensation where their quotas have to be aligned with the quotas of the direct team. And there you have to decide whether they're gonna share that quota or not.   And so, I've seen on a couple of occasions where the quotas for the channel team were aligned more towards run rate business. Say a large number of small deals, and then a large deal comes in. And maybe that large deal is a million dollars or more, and so the channel person blows out their quota but the direct team doesn't. So whoever is in the compensation plan need to be carefully architected to ensure that you don't have a channel manager totally blowing up their number but the direct team doesn't.   Jen: Right, right. That makes a lot of sense. Have you ever experienced any challenges where like internal struggles with revenue share with partners? So you talked about compensation for the channel, the channel manager who works for the vendor.   David: Right.   Jen: What about for partners? Is that something that you've experienced, you know, challenges in that area as well? I find that a lot of people… they're not sure like how much should we be spending, like how much should we be giving and there seems to be like some philosophical battles that I've seen people sort of face when it comes to that.   David: Yeah. There's a couple of different challenges. One challenge would be that the vendor doesn't wanna part with a piece of their SaaS revenue stream.   Jen: Right.   David: And so they'll try to get the partner to accept some sort of a finder's fee or a fixed upfront fee and then forgo the annuity. And of course, if a partner accepts that then they're really not participating in the best part of the SaaS business. And so they're not going to be as committed to you as they would be if they had annuity for an ongoing revenue stream.   Jen: Right, right. So if you want your partners to bring you SaaS business you should be expected to pay them as such, and pay them the commission, is that what you're sharing?   David: That's right.   Jen: Yeah.   David: Yeah, and it should be not some sort of a fixed finder's fee, so to speak upfront. But we want them to share in the ongoing revenue. And of course a lot of SaaS companies are very direct sales oriented and they see that as a major sacrifice for them. So that's something that everybody has to work through. It's the idea that partners should be sharing in the revenue stream. And so that's one scenario. And then, another scenario would be where partners are having to shift their role in the sale from a software model where they're making their money by doing provisioning and the licensing and installation and upgrade, and things like that, to providing more of a strategic consulting role, where they're helping their client with business transformation and with integration and security. And that may be… I mean, I don't think that's new to many established partners today, but five years ago that was a major transformation.   Jen: Right.   David: So essentially they have to upgrade their value to their clients to take into account the difference in the way a SaaS product is delivered, versus a software product.   Jen: I'm just curious also, over the course of your career, and you have mentioned kind of like three decades of working in marketing and sales, and sales operations, let's just go back five years ago, you know. I mean technology has advanced in the last five years but not so significant. So what's a piece of advice that you would have told yourself five years ago based on what you know now about sales, about the channel, about business, just wondering what you'd like to tell yourself in the past?   David: Well, just to kind of keeping at the theme of this conversation, I would say that five years ago I still probably had some doubts about how the channel would participate in SaaS.   Jen: Yeah.   David: I think I was still unclear about that. But so I would reassure myself, my younger self that SaaS is something that the channel can participate in, must participate in, and that there's a major role there. Like I've said, it's gonna be different in many cases. They're gonna have to develop a more essentially business expertise, meaning expertise in their vertical expertise, in system integration, in security; things that are more difficult than just focusing on the delivery of hardware and software.   Jen: Right. And perhaps there's a role that the vendors can play in helping to coach their partners and bring them along for the ride, and treat them like that natural extension of their sales and marketing teams that they have and truly partner together…   David: Yeah.   Jen: … so those partners aren't kind of felt like left off in an island by themselves.   David: Yeah. So I think this has been going on but essentially the partners contribute their vertical expertise and their integration expertise. Well, the SaaS vendors can share their expertise in how you manage a SaaS business. How do you pay SaaS sales people? How do you make this transition from selling software to software as a service? That's something that vendors have been forced to go through and to figure out and they can share that with their channel partners. That's essentially comes right like a franchise where the franchisor is teaching the franchisees how this sort of business works, how the model works.   Jen: Right, right. Here you go, right. Here's the kit, here it is in the box, right. Here's everything you need to know in order to be successful. I think that's a great example of franchisers have been doing this for decades, really setting their franchisees up for success. I think there's definitely a lot we can learn from that model for sure.   David: Yeah. There are many of examples of channel partners now that do understand SaaS and are making that transition but there are ongoing lessons to be learned that vendors can share.   Jen: Always, always. Well, David, before I let you go, it's been great talking to you about sales operations and the role of operations in and the channels in SaaS, I do have… at the very end of all my podcast I ask some more personal questions just so we can get to know you a little bit better. Our listeners feel like they get a little bit more of a glimpse into your life. So I got four really simple questions as long as you're willing?   David: Sure. Fire it up, Jen.   Jen: All right, all right. So first question is what is your favorite city?   David: My favorite city, other than my hometown of Los Altos where I've lived for most of my life, I would say it's Santa Fe, New Mexico.   Jen: Oh, nice. I haven't been there yet. But it's one of the places I really like to go. What do you like about Santa Fe?   David: Well, the atmosphere is amazing. For example, if you go in the summer time, the monsoon clouds build up over the Rio Grande Valley and they charge across the valley and move to Santa Fe, you'll get a 3 P.M. rain shower. And then the whole thing kind of dissolves into bright blue skies again.   Jen: Yeah. Sounds a little bit like the way some of the storm that get into Tucson, Arizona. I went to college there and have amazing, amazing lighting storms. Where amazing monsoons where it just keeps pouring rain and the streets would be flooded and we'd be trudging that from class, with like water up to your knees. And all of the sudden, it just stop and the sun was out and skies are blue, and it look like it had never rained.   David: Yeah. Like nothing happened.   Jen: Yeah, unbelievable. It's really cool, nature is amazing. Second question for you, would you consider yourself an animal lover?   David: Oh yeah, for sure. My dog is sleeping on the couch next to me here.   Jen: What kind of dog do you have?   David: A Goldendoodle.   Jen: Oh, very cute.   David: Yeah. She's looking at us now, “Are they talking about me.”   Jen: Yeah, that's right. Okay, next question, Mac or PC?   David: Well, I started out as a big Mac fan and I still first use iPhones and iTunes and all that. But I'm pretty accustomed to using a PC at this point. One short story is that my parents were one of the first distributors for Apple computer.   Jen: Wow.   David: This was in the 70s. They were the distributors from Mexico.   Jen: Wow, that's crazy. So you had a Mac early on, you had an Apple computer early on?   David: Yeah.   Jen: That's interesting. A lot of people I talked to when I ask that question they said, “Well, it was always PC. And then they started working for this company, and they gave me a Mac, and now I'm using Mac.” So I haven't heard a lot of people share the opposite way around. It's interesting. My last question for you is, if I were able to offer you an all expenses paid trip, where would it be to?   David: Oh gosh. This is really hard. I would say Venice.   Jen: Nice. Have you been there before?   David: I have been to Venice once before, and I remember to this day getting off of the train and looking out across the Grand Canal and seeing the gondolas, that was just magical. I think I would want to go back.   Jen: Excellent, excellent. Well, I would love to join you. I've been to a few different places in Italy but I never made it to Venice, so my only knowledge of Venice is basically like the Venetian in Las Vegas, which is really embarrassing to admit I don't know why I just said that. But that's all I can picture in my head besides pictures in books. So, one day I'll get there as well. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. It was a pleasure just chatting channel with you. If any listener would like to reach out to you personally, maybe to dig in, ask you a few follow up questions about your experiences, what's the best way for them to get ahold of you?   David: I would say, just ping me on LinkedIn @davidbelove, BELOVE. And yeah, I'll respond that way.   Jen: All right, perfect, easy enough. Well again, thank you David. I really appreciate your time and thanks to everyone else for tuning in and we'll catch you next week for all new episode.   Narrator: Thanks for tuning in to the Allbound podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resourcecenter@allbound.com. And remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Jessica Fewless, Vice President, ABM Strategy and Field Marketing at Demandbase, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss partner matchmaking, the role of partner marketing, enabling partners by focusing on their customers, and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi and welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer and today I am joined by Jessica Fewless, Senior Director of Field and Partner Marketing at Demandbase. Welcome, Jessica. Jessica: Thanks for having me, Jen. Jen: Well, it's so good to have you and, you know, before we really dig into your job I'd love to hear a little bit about Demandbase and our listeners I'm sure would love to know a little more about what you guys do over there. Jessica: Sure. Demandbase is a sales marketing and advertising technology platform designed specifically for B2B marketers. It helps to identify accounts that are most likely to buy from you and the most likely members of the buying committee. And then it helps you attract them to your website and engage them with relevant messaging, once they get there, you know. Last but not least, it allows you to deliver really helpful insights to your sales team in order to help them turn those prospects and customers into revenue for your company. Jen: I love it. And I also love that, you know, you are in the sales and martech space, and we're seeing so many sales and marketing technology organizations who have traditionally, you know, been selling direct. We're seeing them start to adopt indirect strategies and, you know, when I was preparing to speak with you and I'm looking at Demandbase's website, it seems like you have a really solid strategy in place for your partners in terms of segmentation, you know, you've got your agency partners, technology partners, then you have consulting partners. Can you talk a little bit about how your marketing differs with each one of those groups? Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. You know in the evolution of Demandbase... So I've been here for four years now, almost half the life of the company, and when I started, I was originally brought on to do partner marketing. But immediately at that point, you know, I would say that our company wasn't quite ready yet for a mature partner marketing function. You know, we did simple things like worked with partners and sponsored their events. You know, and co-sponsored events in the fields and stuff like that, but that was really kind of pretty surface level type of partner marketing. But more recently, you know, as the ABM category has grown, as Demandbase has grown, our maturity as a company and the maturity of our channel sales team has really blossomed. We went from having one and a half people in that role to about four people now, building out on as you alluded to Jen kind of those separate segments: the agency, technology and consulting partners. And, you know, the reason we split them out like that is, you know, it definitely helps scale our efforts as a company. You know, eventually, you get to a point where your own sales team can only do so much and you really need the help of partners to help scale your efforts from a sales perspective. And so, you know, the reason we split out into three different categories was because our value proposition to them and their value proposition to our customers is very different with each one. You know, with technology partners, those are the partners that we have developed technology integrations with, and so really aiding those B2B marketers to kind of tie multiples of their martech stack together to either deliver additional insights, or deliver additional capabilities that they can have when they use either one of the technologies in a silo. And then when it comes to agency partners, you know, typically this is on the digital agency side or the media agency side. So once again, it's a give and take relationship, we help educate them about account based marketing because that's what their B2B customers they're talking about. And then on the flip side, they help us because a lot of our customers and prospects are asking, "Okay, you know, typically we've been using, say, B2C advertising techniques, we know there's got to be a better way or a custom built way for B2B." And so we're able to bring those agency partners into our customers and prospects to help them solve that problem. And then third, is our consulting partners which is kind of a combo of the two, consulting partners and system integration partners, where they can provide some strategy for the client, but they can also help with the selection of and the implementation of technology. So, you know, I think you can see that it really makes sense that we segment them out that way because each one of them is a very different audience for us. Jen: Right. And, you know, they're gonna need different things from you. But you've really built an ecosystem, a true partner ecosystem there, and which is excellent because I'm sure you've got some of those agency partners that are interacting not just with you, but they are also interacting with certain technology partners that you might have to offer a solution, a custom solution for, you know, that end customer. Jessica: Yeah. Definitely, I mean, it was really interesting we had our marketing innovation summit, which is our annual conference back in April actually. And, you know, it was really interesting because we had a partner mixer and it was typically those things that are a lot of glasses of wine and bottles of beer to drink and, you know? Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Jessica: And as it goes on it gets a little bit chummier, and more fun, and whatnot. But what's really interesting is that this year, myself and the four channel sales folks on our team spent most of the night playing almost, you know, partner matchmaker. You know... Jen: It's interesting, yeah. [crosstalk] Jessica: We had a lot of consulting and agency partners there and they were like, "Well, hey, introduce me to some of your other technology partners so I can start to connect the dots," right? Or it was a technology partner who was like, "Hey, introduce me to some of these consulting partners because I think we are in the same account together and it would be good to like, compare notes." So, yeah, so that was a really interesting kinda evolution in the maturity of our partner ecosystem. Jen: I love it. I love it. And, you know, you mentioned you've been at Demandbase for four years, but I mean, you've been in marketing for 18 plus years, right? So you've worked in non-profit, which I have too, so, we have those battle wounds together. And companies like you were at Autodesk, you were at Adobe, I'm curious about...what are some of the bigger shifts that you've seen in partner marketing over the years? And this answer might extend beyond partner marketing because I'd love to know what, you know, you're doing today that's different from what you did like even as early as four, five years ago. Jessica: Yeah. So, I think to kind of draw back a little bit on some of my time at Autodesk and Adobe and more recently now at Demandbase, I think, you know, the role of the partner marketer has really changed. You know, it's one of those things, or it should change, maybe is a little bit more accurate. So, you know, one point, partner marketing was kind of a program or a project management role. It was one where, you know, they kind of stood in between the marketing team and the channels sales team or the partner team, and their sole focus was really on joint marketing with key partners, right? And so then they would talk to the partner, understand what the partner was trying to achieve and brainstorm, potentially some ideas, and then we'd go back to the marketing team and say, "Hey, marketing team, what can we do here? This partner XYZ is interested in doing “A”, can we fit it in?" And, you know, I don't know about you or any of your listeners, but I found that process to be completely frustrating and unfulfilling, right? Because you'd have all these great ideas and then you take them back to marketing, marketing is like, "No, sorry we don't have the bandwidth or we don't wanna interrupt any of our other programs to fit this in or, you know, or, or, or..." Right? And, you know, now, today I feel like partner marketing managers need to be full blown demand gen marketers. Ones that cannot only brainstorm possible programs, but also be able to execute on them, and be much more proactive and who they're gonna reach out to and partner with. You know, it's definitely one of those things that has been changing although there's still that classic like project manager partner marketing person out there, and when you encounter them, I find them to be ultimately frustrating. Because you're like, "That's great, I wanna work with you but aaah." Jen: Right. Right. Well, and I think, you know, if you look at, okay, well how did we get there? And, you know, one of the things that we see is that a lot of organizations that say, "Yeah, I wanna build this channel of partners." But they ultimately under resource that channel, and so they look for this one person who can be the 'be all end all' and like do everything, right? Who can be the operations person, that project management person and oh yeah, they can just do marketing, they can still be responsible for the revenue too. And we just know you would not do that in any other setting. You know, you wouldn't have that one person be responsible for all things related to the direct part of your business. And so, a lot of it just stems I think just from organizations kind of skimping on the resources that need to be put into the human capital to grow a partner program. Jessica: Yeah. Well, I agree and I think the other thing too is, and I've started to describe it as such, is that I kind of looked at the role of partner marketing as a bit of a Venn diagram, which hopefully everybody is not gonna glaze over when I say that but.... And I think that the two circles are the work that you do in service as the channel sales team, the work you do in service as the marketing team, and then that center section is the joint marketing you do with the partners, right? Because it isn't just about joint marketing, or in, at least in most organizations, it isn't or it shouldn't be, right? So on the pure channel side of things there's new partner recruitment, there's on-boarding, there's nurturing of those partners and those sorts of things to help the channel sales team to be successful, and actually helping those partners influence sales for your company, right? So that's solely dedicated as a channel team and then on the marketing side, you know, there's gonna be some of the somewhat mundane but necessary part of partner marketing role, which is connecting partners with the events team for sponsorships and, you know, working together with partners, or co-sponsoring a field marketing event or those sorts of things. But also, connecting with the right partners for potential thought leadership opportunities and those sorts of things that elevate both your organizations in the eyes of your potential customers. And then in that center section is the true joint partner marketing, right? I think what most people think of when they think of partner marketing and why it's really important if you don't have the other two parts of the role, I feel like that's part in the middle is what, like you said, gets under resourced and kind of missed. Jen: Mm-hmm. I love that Venn diagram kind of, like look, as you were talking through it, I was picturing it and we might need to collaborate on some content for the future because I think there's something really there. You kind of touched on this a little bit, but I wanna dig in when you think about like some of the strategies that you've implemented to really help ensure your team is creating the content that's gonna keep those partners engaged, and foster long-term relationships with them. I mean, do you have any guidance or any tips for our listeners on what they can do because a lot of organizations onboard... or I guess the recruitment of partners and their onboarding of partners isn't where they have a challenge, it's then actually engaging them, and truly activating them once they've joined that inner circle. Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the biggest thing now is, you know, I think everybody thinks of, "Okay I'm gonna build a partner portal and then I'm gonna put all these things out there about our product so that our partner knows about our products, so that they can go sell our products. And in today's world, I would just call that table stakes like, yes you have to do that stuff but that's the bare minimum. You know, what you really wanna be enabling your partners with is content that's gonna help them be more successful with their clients. And hopefully, that's the benefit of your organization as well, but things that are gonna help them raise the bar. So, in our world, you know, yes we have webinars, and we have data sheets and all that fun stuff about what's going on with our product, but on the flip side of that, we definitely want to help educate them at account based marketing because that's gonna help them rise above their competitors in many cases, because a lot of the agencies and consulting partners aren't talking about account based marketing yet and so if an agency can come in and say, "Oh, account based marketing? Yeah, we're all over that." That's gonna make them look good and that's gonna help them in business which is gonna then, in turn, ingratiate them to us. Jen: So, in addition to the supporting partners and positioning them so they can be positioned as you know, experts in account based marketing, and giving them content that's gonna help them earn business and is going to set them up for success, have there been any promotional programs or anything unique that you've created to help them be successful and keep those partners happy? Jessica: Oh, that's a great question. Promotional programs? I wouldn't say so at this point, I think that's partially because, you know, we're just getting to that maturity of our channel sales and partner program, but we had a point this year, like I said at the marketing innovation summit, where we had a mixer and we, I mean, we have no problem getting a hundred people in the room. I think the next evolution for us is in 2018 to have a partner summit, right? An advance of that partner mixer, one where it's definitely an out bound where we can update them on the latest and greatest from us or the ABM industry or those sorts of things, but also for them to be able to provide some success stories, like, "Here's how we found success in working with Demandbase to help with kinda educate the rest of the people in the room." And, you know, then once again to network and make those connections amongst each other. But I think that's kind of the next evolution for us is getting to that summit phase and I think to your point there around promotions, hey, maybe what we'll start to do is with some of our onboarding and our nurturing, you know, we point people to our partner portal, maybe if they check all the boxes on their onboarding report card, they get free tickets to our conference or that kind of thing. So, I'm sure we can build that kind of stuff and/or, you know, do some gamification around it, but we've really haven't gotten to that phase yet. Jen: Well, it sounds exciting and there's so much time and so many great ideas, so I'm sure there'll be amazing things for your partner program here in the next couple of years. Looking back the last few years, you personally really dedicated yourself to building and executing an ABM strategy and I thought, you know, without... I mean I know we can have a whole separate conversation just about that, but I'm wondering if you can tell a little bit of what you've done and specifically why it's been important for like channel partner success. Jessica: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, you know, kind of talking about ABM at a really high level it's, you know, understanding the accounts that you want to sell to and then going out and finding them and selling to them, right? That's kind of the pipe dream or the promise, so to speak, of account based marketing, and it's not a dream, it's, in fact, a whole methodology around that, but, you know, when we talk about it, we actually talk about it having three key audiences. One, prospects, so selling to new potential customers. Two, your existing customers, right? They're your existing customers, you know even more about them than you do about your prospects, so you should be able to sell it to them even better, right at that whole 80-20 rule like, 80% of the work goes into getting a customer, 20% is in keeping and up selling them. And then the third audience is your partners, because if you're talking to your partners in the exact same way that you're talking to your customers and your prospects they're gonna tune you out, right? They don't really care what the shiny new widget is, right? What they care about is what you're doing from a strategy perspective, or how that shiny, new widget is gonna help them be more successful, right? So, if you just sent them to a web page that said, "Hey, look, we have this new thing." They'll go, "Interesting." If you send them an email, and you personalize your website to say, "We have a shiny new thing and it's gonna help you and here's why." Now that helps, one, attract new partners, but to also engage the ones that you already have. Jen: That's perfect. Great. Great. Really great advice. And, you know, I'm thinking about things from their perspective, like I always do, of kind of being the little guy, and you guys have some real members on your list of technology partners. I mean, everything from like IBM, and Salesforce and Oracle to Drupal and WordPress, and Optimizely, and HubSpot, I mean, some big heavy hitters in the martech space, and for a lot of organizations, they might see those types of companies and partnerships and think, "Gosh like there's no way. Like why would these companies partner with me? I'm just kind of starting to build my program." Do you have any wisdom for gaining traction and partnerships with these kinds of tech greats? Jessica: Yeah. That's an interesting one I think, you know, part of us just building our company is what drew these partnerships together for us. As our company grew, as the ABM category grew, right? We became more and more important to these companies. Now, to your point, when you're just starting out, not everybody has that kind of at their advantage. I think for us what we really went after was, when talking to all these partners was, how can we make your solution relevant for account based marketing, right? So I think for anybody, it's figuring out how is your solution partnered with their solution? How is that gonna make their solution more successful, right? And so, we provided that relevance and a burgeoning category that everybody wanted a part of. So, it was kind of our value proposition to working with those folks, and, you know, paid off in the end. Jen: Absolutely. Absolutely. Are you guys still, at this point, are you still sort of like, whale hunting for organizations like that or has your focus when it comes to partner recruitment or I guess actually let me say this, are you still actively recruiting new partners? Or is your energy really focused on maintaining and engaging the ones you have? Jessica: Yup. I would say it's probably 50-50, at this point, kind of where we spend our energy. So yes, absolutely to kind of list that you listed out earlier, those are a lot of the technology partners that we have, you know, there's kind of discrete list of technology partners that we wanna engage, bring on board and work with, and I think at this point we've probably got 75% to 80% of them kind of in our wheelhouse. However, on the agency and consulting side, ABM is a new growing business for them, so just like we practice account based marketing and build a target account list for the new business side of our company, where we decide who are the targets we wanna go after? And we build the marketing and sales programs to go after them. We've actually done the same thing on the partner side. So I've sat down with our channel sales team and said, "Okay, who are the next 50 partners you wanna have in both the agency and consulting categories, right? And let's develop, you know, a whole integrated marketing campaign around going out and getting them." So, exactly the same type of strategy and which might seem kind of silly to some. I mean, I don't know if it works for everybody's business model, but for us it's really, really important because just like I said, you know, even if an agency partner influences a million or two million dollars of business in a given year, that's really helping to kind of amplify our efforts, so it's worth it to us to have a broader set of those partners on board. Jen: It makes perfect sense to me and we have a saying here at Allbound, it's "Partners are people too." And as cheesy as it sounds, sometimes we unnecessarily over-complicate channel partner, you know, that channel partner realm. And just like, you know, you're communicating with people, you're collaborating with them, you're prospecting them, you're engaging with them, same thing goes for those partners that you would like to bring into your world, so makes sense. My last question for you as it relates to channel marketing is, you know, I'm wondering if you have some kind of sound bite, some kind of concise piece of advice that you'd like to offer to other leaders in partner marketing. Jessica: Wow. I kind of liked your last statement there I feel like that's almost... I don't think of it as a sound bite, but I think that the biggest thing is to think of your partner marketing function as a demand gen function focused on partners. You know, so that you're getting the right set of skills, people who have a marketing background, people who are used to being focused on things like pipeline and revenue because that is gonna incent the right types of behaviors and they're gonna go out and find the right types of partnerships that are really gonna make the company successful. Jen: Awesome. Awesome. Well, before I really let you go, Jessica, I have a speed round of a couple of more personal questions that I ask all of our guests. And so I'd love for you to play along as well. Jessica: Okay. Jen: As long as you're okay with that. So, first question for you is what is your favorite city? Jessica: Barcelona. Jen: Woo! you answered that really quickly. Have you been... Jessica: Off the top of my head. Jen: Have you been there multiple times or just once or...? Jessica: I have. I have and everybody talks about, you know, Paris, and these other places and I don't know, like Barcelona to me is just such a vibrant city, and it's kind of the best land of both the east coast and the west coast of the US and then plopped into Europe with all of that richness of culture, I just absolutely love it. Jen: Wonderful. Okay. Second question, are you an animal lover? Jessica: Oh, absolutely. Cats and dogs. Jen: Do you have pets? Jessica: Two cats and, you know, someday when I stop traveling so much, definitely I will have some dogs. Jen: Yeah, it's tough to have a dog when you are not home for sure. I love all creatures. It's absolutely ridiculous, but that's great. Question number three, Mac or PC? Jessica: Definitely a Mac. I am a convert. I was always PC until I came to Demandbase and I showed up on my first day with a Mac, I figured it out and now I look at a PC and I'm like, "Ah, how do I use this thing?" Jen: Isn't it funny, Apple like they've rewired our brains, you know. Jessica: They did. Jen: It's unbelievable, between my MacBook and my iPhone, it's like I don't know how to do anything else. Jessica: Yes, exactly. Jen: All right and last question for you is, let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to? Jessica: Wow, that's an amazing question. I think I would love the opportunity to travel and probably South America. Just really dive in and, you know, get to see different wine regions and coastal villages and the mountains, being able to deep into Patagonia and those sorts of places. I think you know, being able to spend a couple of months there would be pretty amazing. Jen: Sounds great. Sounds like a good vacation. Thank you so much. Thanks for sharing your insights with us. It was such a pleasure just getting to know you and hear about what you got cooking over at Demandbase. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, maybe ask about using ABM and their channel, or to kind of swap stories with you, what's the best way for them to reach out to you? Jessica: Yeah, you can definitely look me up on LinkedIn, I'm always happy to make new and more connections there. And then also, I'm on twitter @jfewlessB2B, so I'm constantly posting new stuff there, so feel free to connect with me there, and, you know, direct message me if you have questions on anything that I've posted out there. Jen: Perfect. Sounds good. Well, I appreciate it and I'm sure our listeners do as well so thank you for your time and thanks, everyone, for tuning in and we'll catch you next week with an all-new episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jim: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com and remember, #NeverSellAlone.

Kevin O'Brien, Vice President of Strategic Alliances at JazzHR, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss challenges when starting a channel program, scaling and tiering, creating a culture of partnership and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast.  Jen: Hi, everybody, welcome to another episode of The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer and today I am joined by Kevin O'Brien who is Vice President of Strategic Alliances at JazzHR. Welcome, Kevin.   Kevin: Welcome, Jen. It's great to be here.   Jen: Well, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast today. I think it'd be great if you could just tell us a little bit about JazzHR just so we have a frame of reference of what you do every day.   Kevin: That's great, yes. So JazzHR is a recruiting solution for small businesses. Small businesses all over North America are having the same challenges that a lot of larger businesses have in terms of how do they find talent, how do they get applicants to new roles that they're trying to fill, how do they screen them and interview them and ultimately bring them through to an offer. And Jazz has built an end to end solution that helps them get exposure onto a lot of the well-known job boards that are out there like LinkedIn, Indeed, Glassdoor and more.   So, it allows them to power their own careers page so that they can actually get visibility into their open roles and then provide a series of tools and solutions so that they can easily screen and identify who to call, who the candidates are going to be and then bring them through in an interview process in a very collaborative manner. So, we've helped tens of thousands of small businesses hire about 300,000 employees over the course of our existence. And we're seeing great success in the market today.   Jen: That's wonderful. It's really wonderful to hear. Hiring, recruiting and onboarding are such big business challenges for organizations, so it's great that you're helping them alleviate a lot of those pains. I want to dig into JazzHR's partner program and also kind of frame the conversation. You and I met at that small business Web Summit and I was sitting in your session.   You were speaking about how to really grow a partner program and how to enable and support partners. So, I immediately went to your partner page on the JazzHR website. And first of all, it's great, it's so thorough, it spells out everything perfectly for any prospective partner hoping to work with you. I mean, it seems like that partner program is very well established. So, can you share a little bit about how long it took to ramp up to where you are now and what had to be in place to get to where you are?   Kevin: Yeah, happy to, happy to. Yeah, the program at JazzHR has been around for just about a year, coming up on a year in May or June. To us a small business is a company that has up to 500 employees. So generally, small businesses have anywhere between 20 and 500 employees to be able to have the need to use JazzHR for their system.   And what we found was a lot of these companies are already working with trusted advisors for their HR needs, so maybe they're working with HR outsourcers, maybe they're working with compensation consultants, maybe they're working with other technology providers like HRIS systems and so forth. And those companies and organizations tended to be in a great position to not only introduce their clients to sort of the next wave of technology that they needed to bring onboard, but also they needed to be able to answer the next question that their clients had which is, ''Hey, can you help me with my hiring needs and help me get my hiring needs from offline to online.''   And so, when we saw this at JazzHR, we knew that we had to have an indirect strategy. And so, we built out a program that was tailored to local consultants who had one-to-one relationships and face-to-face relationships with local businesses. We put a program in place so that it was easy for them to get educated on what are the challenges that their customers have with hiring and have Jazz help to solve them.   And then we also have an indirect strategy around integrations where we built out an API so that we could tie in some of the technology systems that we're bringing these solutions down to small businesses as well. And so, we had to have all of that in place and then we had to build in sort of a partner portal with a marketing portal so that they could get access to this information and track their customers and then get rewarded for bringing new customers into Jazz.   So, it took a good three, four, five months to get the infrastructure set up and then it's been in place since around May or June of last year. And so, we're 9 or 10 months into it and the program is really growing very quickly and we're having a lot of success in helping these partners bring hiring and recruiting solutions down to their customers.   Jen: Well, you guys have been really busy. You have accomplished quite a lot in a very short period of time.   Kevin: Yeah, yeah. I mean, luckily the solution set for Jazz has been built out over a lot longer period of time than that. So, Jazz is what was founded as a company called the Resumator in 2009. And so, it's a fully functioning end to end suite for recruiting solutions. The whole company really rallied around it and we had support from our executive leadership all the way down to our product, marketing and sales teams. There's definitely a need in the market for these local consultants and technology providers to help their clients move their hiring from offline to online. So, the opportunity was there, the solution was there and we were able to build up the infrastructure to connect the two and really start to ramp the program.   Jen: That's great. Not to go down like a memory lane with you, but you look at your career and you definitely have had a general focus. You were the VP of Partners at HootSuite, you were Senior Director of the app partner program at Constant Contact. I'm just curious, what do you feel you've really been able to bring with you from company to company as you work to scale a channel partner program? Because I see a lot of individuals, a lot of channel professionals and they go and they build something we create something in and they move on maybe to the next company, and I'm just curious from your perspective what you feel you really brought with you?   Kevin: Yeah, that's a good question, Jen. Thank you. All three of these companies have all been focused on delivering solutions into small and mid-size markets. And one of the things that I really developed an appreciation for at Constant Contact from being there as it was able to grow from 100 customers up to 600,000 customers was an appreciation for how small businesses really leverage their own networks and their own trusted advisors in terms of what they need to be focusing on next.   And so, building out channel in partner programs that are able to empower those trusted advisors to be comfortable with your solution to understand how it's going to solve their client's needs and to be able to easily fit it into their existing workflows is something that I think we were we were able to solve really well at a Constant Contact, and I also took that into HootSuite and now into JazzHR and that's the key. It doesn't just have to be a solution that they believe that their customers are going to be successful with, but it also has to have the features and functionality that make it easy for them on a day in and day out basis to see how their customers are operating with it and to understand the challenges they have, so that if they can help overcome certain areas of the product they're able to add value themselves.   And then to also achieve some status with the brand that they're working with so that they can get early access to the content or features or insights and so forth that they can bring it to their clients, and it helps them to strengthen their relationship there as well. So, I think bringing in an appreciation for how small businesses need to be hearing about these solutions from their trusted advisors, as well as some of the more traditional direct marketing that happens in terms of software today is something that I've leveraged and tried to bring with me so that we can scale these programs with different companies.   Jen: That makes perfect sense. I mean you really understand the day to day of that small business, the end user, end customer and you also can put yourself in those partnerships. So, it makes perfect sense to me. I want to dig in and get more nitty-gritty with JazzHR's partner program because whenever there's a successful program we want to look and see, “Okay, what can we learn from this and how can we apply it to other people's organizations?” You guys have three tiers of partners and it seems like those are based on the number of bookings. So, can you tell us a little bit more about the tier structure that you've built out at JazzHR?   Kevin: Yeah. Yeah happy to. So, a booking for Jazz is the total cost of a contract that a small business is signing up for. When you think about hiring and recruiting, and this is different than some of the other companies I've been at, some of the other companies have been more month to month, but at Jazz we look at it as a more annual contract because hiring is something that you have a hiring strategy for the year and so you need the software for the whole year and the value of that year is the booking. And what we want to establish we put these goals in tiers out on our website so you can see them at jazzhr.com.   And partners are able to come in and understand how much business that they would traditionally need to be bringing to JazzHR in order to be at a certain tier. That typically translates into how many new customers do you think you will be able to introduce JazzHR to? So, whether it's two, three, four or five throughout the year we have a tier for that, whether it's 20 to 50 throughout the year we have tiers to that, or if it's a 100 plus we have tiers for that. The goal is to really set the expectations for ''Hey this is what we think you need to be signing up for when you come to JazzHR, and here's the reward you are going to get for doing it.''   So being really transparent is important when you scale any channel program or partner program and it's something that we found to be helpful in getting the Jazz HR channel program off the ground as well.   Jen: Is it safe to assume that those same KPIs that you're using to measure partners are similar to what you're using internally for direct sales or is there a good alignment there as well?   Kevin: Yeah, there is and that's a great point because with any partner program it's always being measured against the direct sales initiative because you really need to be outperforming what a traditional single sales rep can do for the partner program to be successful. So, you really need an apples to apples comparison. So, you're right. The sales teams are measured by bookings, and the partners are measured by bookings, so that the company and the teams at the company are really able to see how one is performing against the other and what efficiencies are we getting through the channel strategy that we don't see necessarily in a direct strategy for this particular product set. And so, that does give us an easy way to measure how each of the programs are working.   There is a lot of cross promotion within the programs, like the sales team is very comfortable if they think that they're talking to a prospective partner of introducing them into the partner program so that they can be serviced a little bit differently and rewarded a little bit differently. But at the end of the day, we are looking at both programs to be able to accelerate the growth of Jazz, so we do try to keep the way that they're measured consistent across the two programs.   Jen: Excellent. Excellent. These are the types of questions that when someone is just setting out to build a channel partner program, these are the things that they've got floating around in their head. And so, I love being able to talk to people who are in the trenches like yourself and share that knowledge forward. Speaking of that, when you think about an organization that's just really embarking on building out a partner program, what do you think are some of the most critical elements that a channel leader should consider, particularly when they're really starting from scratch?   Kevin: Yeah. When starting from scratch, there's internal things and then there's external things that you really need to be looking at. So, externally you really need to identify if the product that you want to develop an indirect strategy for is something that the people of the ears of a small business can easily articulate to their client because that's really what's going to determine whether they're going to align with your product or not. And what I found is most small businesses business applications fall into that category. And so then it's really trying to identify who are the pockets of these different partners that you can easily go after so that they can adopt your solution for their customers.   The bigger challenges tend to be internally focused when you're getting a program off the ground. I think a lot of times people run into headwinds in a new program if they don't have the buy in and the visibility of the program that you really need. And what that means is a lot of people would want to take a program put it in a corner and give it some time to mature a little bit and keep it out of the way. But with a channel or an indirect strategy that's going to be a big part of the business, it really needs to be top of mind across the exec team and top of mind across the product team, the marketing team and the sales organization.   So, having top-level goals that are measured weekly and that are constantly in front of the functional leaders of each of the departments in the company is critical to keeping it at the forefront of everybody's mind. Now recognize it's going to take 12 to 18 months for a program to really start to achieve scale. But if it doesn't have the visibility throughout that period it's going to get left behind by product, it's going to get left behind by marketing and it's never going to be able to get that sort of the foundation under it that it needs to achieve the scale. So that's number one.   Number two would be investing in infrastructure early and I think a lot of it is easier now than it was say 12 or 13 years ago when we were doing it at Constant Contact. Now there are a lot of tools out there built specifically for indirect programs so that you can easily set up a partner portal or you can integrate it in an API set into the back end for companies to take advantage of it if you're looking to integrate your system. But investing in that infrastructure to be able to measure and help the partners manage their business with you is critical because if you don't it's going to be a lot of email and wait and email and wait, and they'll just get frustrated and move on.   So those are some of the key things that we try to do when we're setting up programs with high-level goals that are visible across the whole organization. We also measure them weekly so everybody can see how it's doing and invest in the infrastructure before the program actually launches. So you're really setting it up for success because you're trying to pull that 12 to 18 months data as quickly as you can, and that's the point at which it will start to drive and really accelerate sales for the business going forward.   So those are the things that I've tried to work on in the different programs that I've built. For the folks who have challenges, I think they tend to try to keep it outside of the limelight at the beginning, but it just gets a lot harder to integrate it later on as the program starts to mature. So, doing it right out of the gate is critical.   Jen: I think that's such great advice. When I look at partner programs that never really produced any real results, they were siloed. The organization has to have a culture of partnership, it has to embrace that, and that comes from the top. Right? That comes from the CEO, CFO and trickles down into every single person within an organization.   Kevin: Yeah, and being hand in hand with the sales team is critical as well and making sure that they understand it's a friend, not a foe is going to ensure that it gets the support it needs as well.   Jen: Yeah, and I know that could be challenging, but sales people we like to fight for our turf. So, it's a cultural wave to bring everyone together and work together collaboratively, which actually leads me to my last question for you about collaboration. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about some of the challenges that you see vendor organizations face when they're trying to collaborate with their partners? And then this is kind of a bonus question, but I'm just curious if your partners have an opportunity to collaborate with each other? We're starting to see these partner programs really become ecosystems where different partners might be able to collaborate to solve a business challenge. So, I'd love to hear any feedback you might have on that as well.   Kevin: Yeah, let's take the first part of the question first, collaborating with the partners is critical. And it's such a great way to get access to new content, new ideas, new case studies and really get behind them and showcase them. In most cases with an indirect partner strategy, you're going to have access to probably more marketing resources than your partners are. So really pointing them out there and leveraging the partners expertise is a great option that we have.   We have a webinar that we're going to be running this Thursday. I don't know when this podcast is going to be accessible, but Thursday is 4/20 and 4/20 is a moniker for pro-marijuana and the partnership is actually with a partner who focuses on what are the rules around marijuana in the workplace for states where marijuana is legal. So, there's the fun play on sort of timing and content but it's really leveraging partners to bring their expertise so that you can educate the rest of your customers. And if you're open like that, more partners are going to be a lot a lot more interested in working with you if they can see that you're open to helping them demonstrate their expertise in growing their pie as well as growing your pie. That's critical.   And to the second point of your question, you're absolutely right, when your partner programs get big enough you can facilitate this sharing of ideas amongst your partners so that now you can get two, three, four partners involved in helping to solve a single customer's problem. At Constant Contact we saw this where we would have partners who would partner up together. If one was a web developer and another was a content writer they would work together to solve, and we would actually be building up the local networks of those partners through local directors we had. Those directors would work with all these partners and understand skill sets and who to refer customers to for what, but also build a working group so that they could team up and attack customer problems together.   We saw the same thing at HootSuite with technology partners. There are partners who are really good at deep listening and analytics and others who are good at content management and how that all works with the HootSuite platform and then bring them in to solve customer problems. We are not big enough at JazzHR where it's happened yet, but it's certainly where we're going and that's the point when the word gets out to partners that they can not only be rewarded for bringing in business, but also get new business from participating in your program, that's when it really starts to take off. So, that's another reason why it takes 12 to 18 months to get these things moving, but once they get moving it's like rolling a ball downhill, it'll pick up speed and start to manage itself on its own.   Jen: Oh, that's great. And that's very, very true. I think it's the changing buyer that's also dictating a lot of these collaborative partnerships that are happening because the customer has a challenge and partners can learn from each other and collaborate together. And with the Internet, you can't hide a partnership very easily right? So, the days of this is this exclusive partnership and we don't work with anybody else, today buyers have so many more choices, so, I think that the sun has set on that type of partner program.   Kevin: Yeah. In the small business world we like to say they are time starved and task focused these small businesses, because they also don't have a lot of time. So, if they are very comfortable working with someone and that person can bring another person in it just makes it easier for both for both companies. So, developing that trust is critical early on for sure.   Jen: Well, this has been so great. I've loved digging into this with you and hearing about what you're working on over at JazzHR. But before I let you go, I like to end the podcast with asking a couple of more personal questions so our listeners can get to know you a little bit better. Nothing too challenging as long as you're open to it. Does that sound okay?   Kevin: Sure, sounds great.   Jen: Okay. All right. So, first question is what is your favorite city?   Kevin: What's my favorite city? Well, outside of the city I live in, I live in Boston, but the one city that I've traveled to multiple times and I would love to relocate to at some point is San Diego. I love the culture and I love the location, so that would be the city I would prefer over Boston.   Jen: That's a great city. Every time I go there, and every time I land and I walk outside and I'm at the airport, I go, “Oh, this place is so beautiful.”   Kevin: Exactly, right.   Jen: Question number two, are you an animal lover?   Kevin: I'm an...   Jen: Is that a no?   Kevin: I have zero pets. How's that?   Jen: You have zero pets, all right.   Kevin: I've taken my kids to the zoo before.   Jen: That's awesome. Question number three, Mac or PC?   Kevin: Mac. I was a PC guy till 4 years ago, but now I'm Mac all the way.   Jen: They have a way of rewiring your brain, huh! It's unbelievable.   Kevin: It's more just how many times I've had to repair the PC and how many times I haven't had to repair the Mac, that was enough for me.   Jen: Yeah, absolutely I agree. Okay, last question. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip, where would it be to?   Kevin: That's a good question. An all-expenses paid trip probably Australia, I've never been to Australia, I've always wanted to go. And assuming that you can also carve the time off for me to get there for a month that's where it would be.   Jen: Yeah, but this is like a magical pretend land, so yes, I can do that for you. If I had unlimited money to send any podcast episode guest on any trip. So yes, in that world you can take as much time off as you'd like.   Kevin: Great.   Jen: Well, thank you. Thank you again, it's been so great spending some time with you today. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to do so?   Kevin: Yeah, that's great. So, they should reach out to me through my work email. It's kevin.obrien@jazzhr.com and I'm happy to collaborate on partnerships, make personal connections and help anyone out if I'm in a position to do so. I really appreciate the time you gave me, Jen, this has been great.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, thank you and thanks, everyone else for joining us for an episode of The Allbound Podcast, and we'll catch you next week.   Announcer: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And remember #NeverSellAlone.      

Tony Fox, Vice President of Sales and Development of Channel Partners at bswift, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss protecting your brand by choosing the right partners, solutions partners vs channel partners, business acumen and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast.   Announcer: Effective selling takes an ecosystem. Join host, Jen Spencer, as she explores how to supercharge your sales and master the art of never selling alone. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast: The fundamentals of accelerating growth with partners.   Jen: Hi everybody, welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I'm joined by Tony Fox who is Vice President of Sales and Development of Channel Partners at bswift. Welcome, Tony.   Tony: Hi, Jen. How are you doing?   Jen: I am doing great. I'm so glad to have you on the show, and I thought we could maybe kick things off with having you share a little bit about bswift for listeners who maybe haven't heard of the company before.   Tony: Yeah, well, thanks, Jen. And first, I do want to thank you for inviting me on your podcast, so thanks for that. A little bit about bswift, so bswift is primarily known in various industries as what we would call a "benefit administration platform." I think we go a little bit beyond that, and we offer potential partners a great deal in terms of connectivity, so the ability to link out to different vesting class partners and giving the channel partner the ability to take back to their end user. And we really have a top-in-class decision support tool as well. So, again, benefit administration on the whole with a healthy dose of connectivity thrown in for good measure.   Jen: Great. And, so, when we look at your partner program, I know that bswift has two main categories of partners. So you guys have solutions partners, then you have channel partners. So, can you just explain the key differences between those two groups and the role that they play in your sales ecosystem?   Tony: Yeah, sure. So, really, we have, like you said, two different types, and the one I'd probably describe first are our channel partners. And it's really a fairly simple relationship where we reach out to an entity or they reach out to us and we end up licensing our software. It ends up acting for bswift as a distribution channel, we license our software, and then our channel partners take on the effort of selling, implementing, and monitoring the software in an ongoing basis as they deliver it to their end users. End users in this scenario are usually employer groups but can be individuals, but again, mostly employer groups. So that's a channel partnership.   Aside from the distribution pathway, it also acts like, kind of a, I don't want to say free, but it really is a business laboratory. So as we further develop our software, and ours is an evergreen technology that has three full releases per year, we like to take input from our channel partners as they interface with the market, and then they bring back recommendations and suggestions for really how we should innovate going forward. So that's really a channel partnership right there.   Our solutions partnership is slightly different, and really it comes down to aligning ourselves with what we call “best-in-class vendor partners.” So what we would do is identify maybe a best-in-class medical partner, for example, Aetna insurance. We could align ourselves with MetLife, Unum, or, perhaps, Guardian on the ancillary and work-type products. And when we have a solution partner, it has the effect of stocking the shelves, so to speak, for an end user employer group. So as they enter on to bswift, our channel partners have the ability to select from our portfolio and solutions partners and bring their product to their employer groups. It makes implementation much easier, it makes price negotiation much simpler, and it really just enables everything to work properly and as a whole. Does that make sense, Jen?   Jen: No, it makes perfect sense, and it's definitely a true ecosystem that you've got there. And I absolutely love that concept of your channel partners being part of like a laboratory. I think that is so cool because the sales experience, is an experiment. You're constantly experimenting and trying new things, and that's such an awesome way of thinking about how your partners can help contribute to the growth of your organization. Not to put you on the spot, but are there any anecdotes? Is there any story of something that's emerged out of a channel partner engagement from your experience?   Tony: Yeah, absolutely, Jen. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sorry to talk over you there for a second.   Jen: No!   Tony: But I think, maybe the biggest example is more and more of this grouping of channel partners has informed bswift's evolution in really our recent interfacing. And I'll talk about this probably a little bit later, but you have to know who your best customers are going to be. We identified very early on that payroll vendors were going to be a pretty good partner for us. Largely speaking, with the advent of the ACA reporting necessity, payroll plus Ben Admin equals compliance. So, as we began to partner with these different payroll companies, we found that, as opposed to our traditional carriers and brokers, payroll companies were much more advanced along the technological spectrum specific to connectivity.   So again, we fancy ourselves very much a connectivity vendor in addition to Ben Admin. And so what we were pushed to do is really accelerate what we call our API interface. And I'm not going to remember what API stands for, but really what API consists of is a real-time data exchange which makes everything look and feel more cohesive with where your partner is in the market, if its a payroll company, or the brokerage, or even with an enrollment firm. So that's an example of how payroll companies on the whole push us to accelerate our API timeframes, and we're going to be releasing a full API published spec in our August release of this year. So that's a perfect example of how channel partners have pushed us to do something, maybe outside of our normal pathway.   Jen: Awesome. And bonus definition for everybody, API stands for "Application Program Interface." So, "Oooh, ahhh."   Tony: I feel like you got points on me for that one. That's fine.   Jen: The information that's in my head...the technical information about web services and APIs that I have in my head from over the course of my career is baffling to me, as somebody who got a degree in English.   Tony: Whenever Jeopardy releases a technology-type of episode, I'll make sure we getcha on it.   Jen: All right, all right. Well that's really cool, thank you for sharing that example. Let's talk about a couple other things. You've been working to grow bswift's channel program for the last two and a half years or so, but when you look at the course of your career, you've been collaborating with partners even in a more traditional direct sales role. So I'm curious, what do you feel you've brought with you as an individual contributor that you've applied to helping scale a channel partner program?   Tony: Sure. Now, Jen, that's a great question. Without too much back-patting on my part, I think what I bring to the bswift spectrum is really an understanding of, maybe the broadest possible concept at the benefits industry. As I mentioned before, it's not just brokers and it's not just carriers that comprise the, call it the benefit administration spectrum or the universe. Really, you have to understand that payroll companies are in there. Brokers naturally have a very strong presence within that, but you also have things like PEOs and large-scale enrollment firms, and other types of entities that are firmly connected to the employee benefit sphere.   My understanding of that enabled me to come into bswift and really understand what our channel partners need. Now, we have been a very successful company prior to me coming onboard, but what I think I brought was in addition to understanding what we offered, I know why we offer that. And I know why it applies very well to a distributed system. So again, for example, when you have a channel partner, it's one person selling on your behalf. I understand how that works, I understand why that works, and I understand the profit motivation of the different folks within the employee benefits universe. I think that's really what has led this to be a pretty good fit both for me and bswift.   Jen: You've kind of hit on this business acumen that you have. So, you understand the impact that the solution has on the end user, the customer, what it can have on the partner's business. We're seeing this more and more where channel professionals have to understand the entire business, all the challenges, all of the different levers to pull to increase efficiencies in revenue. And, yeah, I think you've really articulated very nicely how you've been able to kind of translate that over into this channel program at bswift. That's great.   Tony: Yeah, Jen. There's another thing, too, and it kind of goes back to the earlier question you talked about. And if you understand the business as a whole, you're able to utilize the feedback you get from that business, as that kind of laboratory scenario, like we talked about earlier. If you don't understand the industry on a whole, you're not going to understand the small little bits and pieces that come back to you and really how they fit into the bigger whole. If you are a software company dealing with the employee benefits industry and you don't use your channel partnership distribution as a lab, I think you're fooling yourself. I think you're really passing up on a massive amount of potential information that can inform your development process.   Jen: I'd love to see more and more organizations treating their channels that way, and maybe we'll get some feedback from listeners. If anyone is doing that, we'll want you to reach out to us. We'll share some information at the end of the podcast because I'd love to hear more stories just like that. Speaking of kind of thought leadership and new ideas, you'd written a blog fairly recently called "The Unexpected Benefits of a Channel Partnership," and one of the benefits in that blog that you state is "simplify the pivot," and I really love this philosophy. So, if I'm looking to engage in a partnership with another organization, how might the partnership help me simplify the pivot?   Tony: So first, I feel I should probably apologize in advance if I've coined a new corporatism, "simplify the pivot." I figured that's worth at least thirty points in a great corporate-phrase buzzword game. So, my apologies in advance. But by definition, a pivot is changing the way you do business. It doesn't mean you have to move away from what got you to the level of success where you are.   So let's use an example, maybe, a broker, or an enrollment firm, or a payroll company, when you become a partner with a successful channel partnership organization, in a broad sense, or bswift in specific, what you should be entering into is a certain level of market expertise, a certain level of operational expertise, and, without using the word "expertise" again, really knowing how the process works. What it can do if you're a channel partner, and let's say you're a broker, it can ramp up your learning curves, it can help your investment, because we all know that distributed software systems are not free, it can help your investment pay off a lot more quickly.   Now, you have to partner with somebody who has a good product and a good process to go along with it, but your partner also needs to be able and willing to deliver on your organizational expertise. They can know how they're doing it and how to do it successfully. If bswift doesn't pass that on to each and every one of its channel partners, again, there's an opportunity for success there that we've missed.   Jen: So, if I'm an organization... I think these are really good pearls of wisdom, but if I'm an organization that's just embarking on building out my channel partner program... I'm just trying to kind of wrap this all up together, thinking about this idea of experimentation, the idea of the benefits that partnership can bring. I guess, can you maybe summarize for us what you think some of the most critical elements are that a channel leader should consider? You know, really put yourself in the shoes of someone who is really just getting going, starting from scratch.   Tony: Yeah, it's funny. I think probably the two biggest pieces are, you have to understand your audience...and again, these are going to sound strident, they've been repeated a couple of hundred times, but the fact that they're basically synonymous with channel partnership and there's something to that. You have to understand who your audience is and who you sell to, and you have to understand why they should want your product. So, along the lines of who you sell to, benefit administration is a perfect example of as you grow a company and as you grow your channel partnership line of distribution, early on in the process, you want to get ink on paper. You want to get contracts signed. You want to focus on your immediate top-line revenue.   Over time, and as you move away from that immediate urgency to get revenue in the door, you're going to find that there are partners that are better suited to tell your story, than some of those early ones, the ones that you just kind of signed in a mad rush. And maybe they're better at operations and deliverables, and they're going to lessen your chance of brand damage. Because if you damage a brand in the market place to your third-party, you don't have a lot of recourse, and it's very difficult. Probably another facet to that, I call it “over-targeting”, or being so specific in your perceived market that you kind of ignore the rest of the ecosystem to use your word.   And, for benefit administration, the perfect example is focusing so heavily on the brokerage market that you ignore those, I would call them tangential partners, like enrollment companies, and payroll companies, and PEOs, and carriers that need to set up exchanges. The universe is a big thing, and you don't need to focus, or really, over-focus on just that brokerage group. So if you understand what you have and why a certain group wants it, it can come in upon you when you're developing a channel partnership system to mentally try to broaden that out as much as possible. The more targets you have, statistically speaking, the more you're going to land.   Jen: No, that makes perfect sense.   Tony: Does that make sense, Jen?   Jen: Absolutely. Even in your final point there about keeping those options open for the type of partner, it's still grounded with, "Okay, but who is your buyer?" Right? Who is the person who's going to benefit most from using this product? And as long as that's consistent...I mean, there's new technologies, there's new categories, there's new types of companies that are being created every day. And so, to your point, if you kind of keep your head down focused on this one type of entity, like a broker, you might miss out on other complimentary solutions that could be just as beneficial, if not more, to helping you achieve your goals, so yeah, I agree. I think it's a great strategy to keep in mind.   Tony: Yeah, and it's funny, Jen. One thing you hit on there, kind of reminded me of this. You see what your competitors are doing in the marketplace, and obviously, you need to know what your competitors are doing. I don't think you should feel obligated to follow what they're doing. For example, a lot of benefit administration companies start by heavily trying to penetrate that up-market, in that 10,000, 20,000, those big brand name clients. Having said that, there are also newer arrivals on the Ben Admin stage that have done very well in that small group exchange stage.   You have to understand that when you have a potential market or a potential industry that's so deep and broad, there's going to be room for a lot of other people at the table. And your goal is just to make sure you definitely have a seat at the table and then maybe knock over a couple people that are sitting to your left and right.   Jen: Right, sounds good.   Tony: Unless its too aggressive.   Jen: Well, we'll let all of our listeners decide what's too aggressive or not. I think everyone's going to have a different threshold for that. I'd love to know from you, what do you think is the most exciting thing about working in indirect sales? And the reason why I'm asking that question is because, well, I think we could really go backward and say, okay, no kid grows up going, "I want to be in sales." You know? And certainly no kid grows up saying, "I want to be in channel sales." It's not something we go, "I can't wait until..." There's not necessarily a degree that you can get in it in college, but yet, here we are. Right? My day 100% revolves around indirect sales. What do you think is the most exciting thing about doing what you do?     Tony: Well, I think aside from seeing one of your channel partners land a big one or really kind of hook into a fourth gear or something like that, I mean, that's going to excite most people because that's more revenue in the door. Everybody gets excited by revenue. I think, maybe on a smaller scale, when we talk to a channel partner, and maybe even in the discovery phase or when we're contracting or something like that, and you just hear the penny drop, and you just hear it click with that channel partner and...I'm trying to remember what my intro to psychology class back in college called it, I think it was a cognitive flash. That “aha!” moment.   I love when I'm talking to somebody on the phone and they say, "Whoa, that makes a lot of sense, Tony. So you mean not just A, B, and C but maybe D through R." And they start to see that scope expand, and they start to see maybe it's not just software. Maybe it's a way of realigning how their entire business model reports on the business model itself, for example, on a brokerage. Or maybe they perceive a way, if they're a broker, to drive new broker of record letters. Or if they're an enrollment firm, maybe they see a way to lessen their operational investment on a medium size client by using our divisions support tool.   It's really just when what you offer just absolutely clicks with somebody, that's what kind of gets me excited about stuff because I know that we're not a mature industry quite yet, although we are getting there. Eventually, it's going to be a mature industry. And the more that we can kind of form that discussion as we go, both through our product and our discussions with people, the better off bswift and Aetna, our owner, are going to be. So that's what really gets me going, is when they kind of get it.   Jen: I love it, I love it. Because I know the feeling. I can certainly empathize, and I'm sure a lot of our audience can as well. This has been so much fun, and before I let you go, whenever we do the podcast, I have people answer some more personal questions so we can get to know them a little bit more. So, are you ready to answer just four simple questions? Sound good?   Tony: Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.   Jen: Okay. So, first question for you is, what is your favorite city?   Tony: Well, I'm born and raised in Chicago, so it's difficult for me to say anywhere but Chicago. I will say that recently I've become acquainted with the charms of Manhattan. I'm a big city guy. I like the excitement. I like the energy. I like the buzz that a big city brings. So, if I had to live somewhere other than Chicago, it might be Manhattan or oh gosh, pick some island off the coast somewhere because if I'm not in a big city, I probably want to get away from it entirely.   Jen: Great, sounds good. Okay, next question. Are you an animal lover, yes or no?   Tony: I'm absolutely an animal lover. I have two dogs, I have a Border Collie and a suspiciously tall Dachshund, and they take up a lot of my day. So, they're awesome.   Jen: A suspiciously tall Dachshund. Really?   Tony: Yeah, yeah...   Jen: Just a tall guy?   Tony: Yeah, my wife and I only buy from shelters, but they said that she was a Dachshund mix, and she ends up looking a lot like a small German Shepherd, so I'm thinking whatever they use for their DNA might be slightly lost.   Jen: That's great. Next question for you, Mac or PC?   Tony: I'm a PC guy. Without divulging too much of my age, I will say that decades ago at the University of Illinois, Macs really weren't a thing. I guess that the Apple IIe and the Apple IIc were starting to come on.   Jen: Yeah.   Tony: I was born and raised on a PC, and I started learning computers before Microsoft even existed. So, I've been a PC guy, I'm going to be a PC guy. It's just the way it works.   Jen: All right. Sounds good. And my last question for you is, let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip, where would it be to?   Tony: As long as it's not within the United States on business, you could tempt me pretty much anywhere. It's funny, there's this TV show, and I forget what channel it is, but it's called "Alone." And the concept is that they take a bunch of survival experts and they kind of dump them on different parts of the globe, and they're expected to kind of make their way to their life for approximately two months and all that good stuff.   The last series of episodes were in Patagonia, South America, down in...I want to say it's in Argentina, it might be Chile. And it was starkly beautiful, and I would just love an opportunity to travel down there with my wife. Maybe do some hiking. Maybe do some fishing unless there's some weird disease I don't know about, and just generally do the "get back to nature" thing. I do love that.   Jen: Very cool. That's awesome. Well, some other time I'll have to have to tell you about my trip to Pucon, Chile, which is at the very, very, very bottom of the country. Let's just say, I was the only individual who exited the bus with a rolly suitcase. Everyone else had a camping backpack and I had a suitcase on wheels, but it was good fun.   Tony: That's hilarious!   Jen: Give you a sense of who I am. But thank you so much. Thanks for sharing your insights with us today, Tony. It was so great. If anyone listening would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to do so?   Tony: I think probably the best way to reach out to me would be through LinkedIn, initially. I'm Anthony Fox on LinkedIn, and I'm currently at bswift so I should be easy to find. And I would welcome any questions for, "Hey, how about an opportunity?" That would be great too. So, feel free to reach out to me whenever.   Jen: Perfect. Well again, thank you, and thanks everyone for tuning in. We'll catch you next week with an all new episode of The Allbound Podcast.   Tony: Thanks, everybody.   Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone. #NeverSellAlone

Anjali Menon, Head of Growth Operations at Magic, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss integrations with complementary technologies, listening to data, being honest with your community of partners and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi everybody. Welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I am joined by Anjali Menon, Head of Growth Operations for Magic. Welcome.   Anjali: Thank you so much. Happy to be here.   Jen: I'm really happy to have you. And I'm excited to talk about your career but, before we get into that, I want to talk a little bit about Magic. Because for all the times I've ever thought, "Man, I wish I just had this like personal assistant." You guys are kind of helping solve that problem for me, right? What's the scoop? Tell me a little bit more about the company.   Anjali: Absolutely. So thank you for having me, first and foremost. And I'm really excited to be here. Magic is a text-based platform that allows you to, just as you said, get personal assistants on demand. So the scope of what you can ask is really sort of infinite. You could ask for things as simple as somebody getting you lunch, to perhaps helping with your office needs and things that are much more grandiose in scale, planning a significant other's birthday party or something like that. But the idea is that you get manpower on-demand to increase your productivity. We launched in 2015, February of 2015. Actually, when it launched, it just went viral. I mean, we had a massive waiting list and it was really validation that people want personal assistants. They want more time in their day.   Jen: Yeah, I'm telling you, it's like as soon as I learned about it, I'm like, "Okay, what should I ask?" Like, "What should I ask for help with?" right? So, it's just such a cool concept. And you're Head of Growth Operations there. What does that entail? I'm starting to see Directors of Growth. I think this I the first time I've seen Growth Operations. What does that mean? What's your role like?   Anjali: Yeah, definitely. It's a really interesting one because we are a growth team, first and foremost. But because we interface with operations so closely, just by nature of the work that we do, we're constantly having to fulfill the requests that our clients put in. That's ultimately how we end up with Growth Operations.   So under this umbrella branch of what we call Growth Operations, there's a few sort of subcategories. We've got a sales team, which has historically been focused on sort of inbound leads as a main source of acquisition. Then we've got an activation team that interfaces with our operations team quite frequently to ensure that sort of consistent quality of service. And this team is critical because Magic's end product is ultimately defined by the user. You tell us what you want and we deliver it. So the activation has to be really customized. And that's in part where a lot of the operations work comes in with growth. And then the third piece which is pretty nascent in its start, but we now have a B2B and partnerships team as well, so those are kind of the three.   Jen: So let's let's dig into that a little bit, you're just getting started with it, but when you think about the plans, this go-to-market strategy for Magic, how important do you believe those strategic partnerships are going to be in your success? What kind of plans do you have in the works?   Anjali: This is such an interesting question because partners can add so much value to our type of business. But it's really a matter of finding the right fit because Magic has so many complexities. You can ask for anything as simple as lunch to something as complex as carrying out a whole sale cycle for a business using Magic. So because it runs the gamut of things that you can do, we really have to evaluate what partners make sense for us. But for Magic, like many other businesses, I think success for our customers comes in the form of efficiency gains, obviously, cost savings, and value-add. And partners can add all of these things.   Some examples of partners that we're exploring right now are things like verticalized partnerships. So, if we can sit on top of other services that already have domain expertise, it's a win-win for us, i.e., if I already can use a cleaning service that I know is good and I can just recommend that to my clients, then I'm saving them and us time by doing so.   Other sorts of partners that are interesting for us are ones that sort of epitomize our values. We have two really interesting values at Magic. Yet, their concepts that are sort of known in the startup community but I'm not sure how widely they're known beyond that. And the two concepts are called yagni and plow.   Yagni is a term that means “you ain't gonna need it.” It's one of those things that in the startup community, people will say it all the time. But it's a term that really signifies when we work with you, we want a partnership that understands that we're working under constraints, and you understand that, and I understand that. And we don't go build things that we don't really need at the moment. We'll build them when it's absolutely necessary. So that's something that we might look for as a value in terms of partnerships. And then this other concept is plow, which you'll hear almost every day in our office. And that's a concept, particularly for a personal assistant kind of concierge company, it's the concept that you don't give up. You keep plowing to make sure that whatever the client wants, you try to get. And so we would hope that our partners sort of share those values as well, maybe on these sales or affiliate side for example.   So really, I think partnerships are key for us, but they need to align strategically both in what we're doing as well as what our clients needs, as well as, finally, what the partners themselves need. And the reason I emphasize this is because when we went viral two years ago, we had major, major brands coming to us, asking us to do partnerships with them. And we turned most of them down. And the reason is, we had to sort of be true to what our capabilities were, and you've got to be honest with what you can deliver and what the partner expects. And so at that point, we hadn't even really figured out who was our right customer profile and did this major brand make sense for what we were doing. Just because they're a major brand doesn't mean they're a good partner for you. So, I know that's a long-winded answer, but I think, in short, partners are very, very useful particularly for our business. But I think that the key is really making sure that there's alignment on both sides for what that partner can do.   Jen: It's very, very sage advice. And it can be very tempting for organizations to just bring on those partners that have me with those big brands. But, if there's not that alignment...and especially for a very quickly growing young company, you got to have that focus, right? So, I think what you're saying you guys are doing is you're definitely going down the right path. I absolutely love hearing it. And those strategic partnerships just make perfect sense.   How about integrations? Are you looking at other complementary technologies as a way that they might play a role in your growth goals? One of the things I'm thinking about, just kind of off the top of my head is like different apps I might be in on a regular basis like Postmates for delivering food or supplies or what have you. I mean, are you thinking about technology, and in that respect, for partnership?   Anjali: Totally. So, this is such a great question for two reasons. One is because we actually just launched a Magic version for Slack. So this Magic-Slack integration allows teams and businesses to more easily and more transparently use Magic as kind of like an office manager. So Slack has been really useful for us as the first step to growing our business in sort of a different category. And so, I think when we think about these partnerships, for example, I sort of alluded to value being very similar. Slack is one whose whole value prop is to increase productivity with teams, and we have a very similar value prop, it's a Productivity Tool. So there's synergy here. And if we can reach more of our target audience through a medium that allows teams to interact more collaboratively like Slack, that's exactly the kind of thing that's good for our business but even better for our clients. So Slack is the major one that we've been focused on.   You kind of alluded to Postmates. And that's a whole other category of sort of partnerships that we'd also be thinking about. Basically these other sorts of niche services that we can kind of sit on top of or that they can kind of sit on top of us, either way. And we can just kind of use them as our clients come in and say, "Hey, I need a burrito." well, the fastest way to do that is through DoorDash or Postmates or something like that. So those are the other kinds of partnerships that we would look at as well. And so, absolutely. That's definitely something that increases productivity and efficiency for us.   Jen: I know I can speak on behalf of the Allbound #AllStars, we try to make Slack do everything. So we try to run our whole business through Slack. Things that are important and all of the shenanigans as well.   Anjali: That's awesome. Well, what's interesting is with the Slack integration, we're finding different use cases for Magic just by virtue of being on a different platform other than text. Because when you're suddenly on a platform that allows for different teams to interact with one Magic as if they were an office manager suddenly Magic becomes the office manager, and it's booking appointments for people, it's bringing vaccines on campus, it's booking team outings, and suddenly the use cases are becoming very different in the way that they interact with Magic is different too, just by virtue of the platform. So it's actually a key growth initiative for us to be thinking about these other kinds of platforms, because they increase the ways in which folks use Magic, increasing their own productivity. But it's also, of course, then expanding the reach of who can use us as well, which is really good for both sides.   Jen: I want to ask you a little bit about some of your past experience. Before you were at Magic, I know you were at Twitter. Before that, you led marketplace operations at TaskRabbit. And marketplaces and partnerships and communities of engagement, there's a lot of similarities there. And you helped launch the TaskRabbit Elite Program. So, let me know how did that concept for that program come about originally? And I'd love any feedback on how it helped really grow the company since its inception.   Anjali: Definitely. So, I am proud to say that the TaskRabbit Elite Program still exist today. So when you go to TaskRabbit, despite the business model having changed from one that was traditionally like a bidding system to one that's now more automated with algorithms, the TaskRabbit Elite Program's still maintained. And the reason is because it actually does really impact the business goals and growth.   The reason it came about was mostly for two sides. And it's two sides in parts because TaskRabbit is a two-sided marketplace. So, on the client side, when we were back in the bidding system, clients would put in a request for something like, "Hey, I need a cleaner." And it was possible that hundreds of taskers could bid on those requests. And clients would sort of face this paradox of choice kind of paralysis because they wouldn't know who to choose.   And so, the concept of the TaskRabbit Elite for clients specifically was, can we give them a sort of value set that allows clients to choose who is the right TaskRabbit for me for this particular job set? And then, on the Tasker side, on the community side, which was the side that I was most closely involved with, we had never created a systematic, defined program that really supported workers in the sharing economy. It was not something we had done formally. And so this was our first attempt to say, "Hey, there are a lot of people hustling on this platform to make it a great one. We should reward them in some way." And so for folks who delivered, who had great ratings, who consistently performed, we thought this is a great way to reward them and get their earnings up by showcasing their work more to the right kinds of people.   Similarly, it also helped new Taskers sort of ingratiate themselves on the platform because now new Taskers had a sort of defined path towards something that they could work to. And so, it was possible that within a month of becoming a new Tasker, you could actually become an Elite TaskRabbit when I launched this thing. And so, it motivated a lot of newer TaskRabbits to do a lot of work and get promoted and get more work. So ultimately, it was kind of a win-win for both sides. On the tasking community, it supported them by giving them more visibility and giving them more work. And on the client side, it helped them narrow their choice to the right Tasker for their job.   And ultimately, we switched the whole model to actually emphasize that specific point, finding the right Tasker for your job. So now, if you go to TaskRabbit, nobody's bidding anymore. You're just sort of shown the right TaskRabbits for you and you just pick the one that's good for you. It's a much easier process now but that concept really sort of originated with that Tasker Elite program. And the reason it exists today, again, is because both of those sides of the community are still served in the same purpose.   So it's been something that was strategic for the company. It ended up ultimately making Taskers more money, which is why we kept going with the program because it was giving them more money and was giving them more incentives to get more work on the platform. And so, yeah, it's something that I'm really proud of because it allowed us to build a community in a way that was very positive for both sides.   Jen: To take sort of a page out of Tiffany Bova's book, she talks about making your customer the true north, like the center of your universe, right? And in every decision that you make in your business, like thinking about it from the perspective of that customer. What's going to be best for that customer? Because people ask, "Should I sell directly? Should I sell online? Should I sell through channel partners? Should I do X, Y or Z?" And the answer should be, well how does your customer want to...right? How do they want to buy? How do they want to be served? What's going to be best for them? And ultimately, if you do what's going to be best for them, that will end up being best for the business and for all the business partners that are part of that ecosystem.   Anjali: Exactly.   Jen: So, it's great to hear.   Anjali: A quick side note on that. We actually spotted the problem of clients not getting what they wanted and not identifying the North Star through data. Because I think folks don't know this, but the reason TaskRabbit changed their model is because a lot of tasks were being put into the system, that is to say, clients were asking for things to be done, but then they weren't always choosing TaskRabbit to get them done. And the reason was in part because of bids. It was because a lot of TaskRabbits could put in bids and then people would get so overwhelmed that we would see this long-tailed distribution of tasks that got bids, but then the client didn't do anything with them. So this effort was to give them exactly what you said, that North Star.   Jen: We talked to a lot of people, and they're building partner programs, whether they're reseller programs, referral partners, affiliates. But they're not just trying to build a program just to get leads or just for top of funnel. They're really looking, "How can I build a true community for my partner ecosystem?" Maybe it's to get partners collaborating with each other, or to get partners and customers collaborating to get shared visibility and really a shared experience. And I'm just wondering, over the course of your career, whether you want to speak to something from being at Twitter or TaskRabbit or even at Magic now, do you have any advice for people who are setting out to attempt to create a community?   Anjali: Yeah, definitely. That's such a cool question because I look at building communities or partner communities or whatever form of community you're building, like a two-sided marketplace because that's the background I come from. So the relationship needs to benefit not only your clients but the partners themselves. So for a business like Magic, that's so dynamic where the scope of what we offer is pretty much sky's the limit, we in particular need partners who understand this and can be flexible enough to work within the constraints of that model. So I would really say for folks who are interested in building this kind of community, define and qualify the ideal folks in the community and how do they fit into what you're building?   Because if you can't define that, then you're not in a good position to set up the community and your partners for success. And I think, and again this is what I alluded to earlier, but when we had major brands coming to us, we didn't even know who was a good partner for us and who were our right customers. But now we're in so much of a better position to do that, so we can start thinking about that. So definitely being able to understand who those right partners are for your community is key. The other thing I would say is honesty is everything, be honest with your community of partners. Because then, the expectations are set correctly. Don't over play your capabilities because you think that's what your partners want to hear. You are the partner in the partnership, and for it to work, I think really, really being able to transparently lay out the scope of what you can do, why you're doing it, and why it's important as it relates to your values are all very key. So that would be sort of my best advice.   Jen: I think that's some really great advice and such a great way to wrap this up. But before I let you go, I always ask some more personal questions just so folks can get to know you a little bit better. You shared so much awesome stuff with us today, but I'm going to dig in a little bit more if you're up for it.   Anjali: I am, of course.   Jen: Okay. So easy questions. First one is what is your favorite city?   Anjali: Oh, okay, Cape Town, South Africa.   Jen: Oh, I have not heard that one yet. So why is that your favorite city? Tell me.   Anjali: So, I'm somebody who loves to travel. And I think that when you travel, you can often find places that you can call home, that are often not your true home. And you just know it when you're there. And so when I went to South Africa, I immediately felt this sense of home. Because South Africa is a lot like San Francisco, where I'm from, in the sense of scenery is very beautiful, there's a lot of nature, Table Mountain, a lot of ocean. People love surfing over there, but then the culture was also just very, very friendly and people were very welcoming. And I also love animals and wildlife. So being surrounded by all of that with a very sort of gracious culture, it felt like home. So that's my favorite city.   Jen: Well, you kind of hinted at my next question. Are you an animal lover?   Anjali: Yeah, I am.   Jen: Do you have any pets?   Anjali: I grew up with two dogs, Larry and Lucky. One was a German Shepherd and one was a tiny little Pomeranian. And they were best friends. But no, I do love animals. So South Africa made sense.   Jen: Great. Next question, Mac or PC?   Anjali: Mac.   Jen: And my last question, if I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to?   Anjali: Well, the next place that I want to go to is Iceland. Because I'm a nature lover. I love exploring. And tickets are cheap right now so it wouldn't cost you too much probably.   Jen: Remember, this is a magic land where I have all the money in the world and I can send you anywhere you want to go. But I appreciate you thinking about me.   Anjali: Well, in that case, I probably just need the money, still in Iceland, but I'd probably go on some kind of luxury retreat, looking at the Northern Lights or something like that. But yeah, I think if we had all the money in the world, the place would be Iceland.   Jen: All right. Awesome. I love the practical fantasy, it's fantastic. Well, I just want to thank you again. Thank you for sharing some of your time with me and our listeners today. If anyone would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to connect with you?   Anjali: Sure. So they can connect with me via email and it's just 0-7, my first name and my last name. So that's Anjali Menon @gmail.com. I can spell that out as well, would that be helpful?   Jen: Sure, sure.   Anjali: Okay. So it's 0-7-A-N as in "Nancy" J-A-L-I as an "igloo" M-E-N as in "Nancy" O-N as in "Nancy" at gmail.com. So that's 07anjalimenon@gmail.com.   Jen: Perfect. Well, it's been great getting a chance to learn a little bit more about you and talking about partnerships and communities. So, thank you so much.   Anjali: Thank you for having me.   Jen: Yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. And thanks, everyone else for tuning in and we'll be back next week with an all-new episode.   Male Announcer: Thanks for tuning into The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone.

Joe Schramm, Vice President of Strategic Alliances at BeyondTrust, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss refining your focus on specific partners, channel growing pains, understanding the win for your partner and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Hi, everybody, welcome to The Allbound Podcast. I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I'm joined by Joe Schramm who is Vice President of Strategic Alliances at BeyondTrust. Welcome, Joe.   Joe: Thanks, Jen. Good to be here.   Jen: I'm glad to have you. I think the best way for us to get started first of all is maybe if you can tell us a little bit about BeyondTrust and your organization.   Joe: Sure, sure. So BeyondTrust is in a segment of cyber security focused on privilege access management. We're also in another segment called vulnerability management. Both segments are pretty well defined in the cyber security landscape, but I would say that privilege access management is probably growing at a higher rate, and that's where we're seeing, a lot of our new product growth, net new logo acquisitions, and so forth. So we're very much focused in the cyber security domain, and it's a very hot market. It's something that we're doing really well in and are very happy to be participating in.   Jen: You have a history of working in business development, strategic alliance roles at very high-tech companies in security. And, I don't know if you have a byte of information or a hard and fast rule, something that you've really taken with you as you've gone from one organization to another to really help grow your channel program at BeyondTrust. How do you help it really run smoothly?   Joe: Yeah, that's a great question. So I think probably my favorite hard rule that I like to live by I learned some time ago now...this goes back several years and a few different organizations ago. But really, my favorite thing to think about and to focus on is what I call “partner profiling”. So a lot of organizations, when they start to build their partner program, they tend to gravitate towards easy wins, meaning if a partner came to you and said, "Hey, I'm interested in working with you," you'd rush to sign them up without really stepping back and understanding, "Are they the right partner for us, right, based on the type of company we are and the products we sell and how we sell them?"   So partner profiling, for me, is one of those almost religious experiences where I sit down and set out to really define the top three or so attributes and partners that we want to proactively engage and recruit and bring into our partner program. And it's easy to get this wrong, right? A lot of organizations, like I said, will gravitate towards easy picking, sign up lots of partners without stepping back and understanding, "Are those partners really aligned to your market? Are they in business for a sustained period of time?" To me, that's an important attribute is length in the market.   If an organization has been around 10, 20, 30 years, it's a very good leading indicator that they've got a big customer base and that they've had to reinvent themselves along the way a couple of times, and pivot as technology changes and continue to sustain and grow their business. That's an important attribute. And then certainly, things like a good go-to market capability, so having sales people, having pre-sales people, having perhaps delivery capability or at least very good technical competence within your domain.   So profiling and identifying what those key criteria are is really, really important. And then making sure that as you engage and as you seek out partners that the ones you're engaging with proactively, even the ones that you're reacting to based on inbound interest, you're qualifying them against those criteria pretty firmly to ensure that your chances of success, once they're up and running, is going to be a lot higher.   Jen: I think that's such great advice, and it should really resonate with a lot of folks who are focused on this account-based movement right now that's happening on the direct part of business because that's what we do, right? That's what we do with an account-based strategy is we identify who's a good target for us looking at those profiles. And, I know it can be challenging when you're building a partner program and you've got that inbound interest in joining your program. It almost like reminds me of if you've got someone volunteering their services, right, they are volunteering to sell for you or sell on your behalf, and you've got to say no to them sometimes. So it could be really hard to do, for sure.   Joe: Yeah. It takes some practice, for sure.   Jen: Yeah. Now, you have launched several key initiatives really to grow the channel at BeyondTrust. Can you share a little bit about the areas that you focused on so far in the organization?   Joe: Sure. I'll touch on maybe a top three that I would want to share here in the context of this discussion. So the first one is that we decided to embark on a global distribution strategy for our company. If you look at the way we were organized from a distribution perspective, it was very localized, so specific countries. For example, in the U.S., we had a distributor. In Canada, we had a different distributor. Throughout Europe, we had many different distributors, throughout Asia Pacific, many different distributors. And what we found was that there was a lot of inefficiencies, a lot of inconsistencies with that model.   Furthermore, we found that not all those distributors were doing much more for us than facilitating transactions, which is important, right? You need to have an ability to transact business. You need access to different kinds of resellers that distributors oftentimes have access to. And you obviously need access to certain kinds of procurement vehicles, which again, distributors often have access to either directly or through their network of resellers, so state and local contracts, for example, GSAs, too, and the federal site to name a couple.   So it's really important that you have some measure of a strategy there. But what we did was we set about to consolidate our distribution strategy and align ourselves to a distributor that we felt was very focused on the security domain, which is what we participate in, and also one that we felt could help us scale the business and generate net new opportunities through their network of resellers.   And so we decided to join a program that Westcon-Comstor offers called Accelerate. And it's a very selective program. We're one of like, I think, five or six different vendors that belong in that program, and that's really the extent of it. This gives us a lot of focus with Wescon, gives us an ability to wide up each region in a sequence. So we're very active with them in AsiaPac. We are now writing up North America and Latin America. In Europe, we'll be coming online later this year, in fact in Q2.   So it's provided us with a nice way to rationalize, streamline, drive more efficiency, drive more consistency with our distribution business, have one, well, not one entirely because we do have a couple of distributors that we're maintaining, but it helped us rationalize and reduce the number of distributors that we've had on a global basis. That's one initiative that we embarked on.   Another one that we embarked on last year was our Technology Alliance Program. So we wanted to have an opportunity to provide our technologies, provide our open APIs to potential technology partners as well as potential consulting partners who would want to or need to develop custom integration in their product or on behalf of our customers. We launched the Technology Alliance Program last year, and that's been great. We signed a couple of very strategic technology relationships through that technology program, SalePoint, McAfee being a couple in particular.   But we also have some others now coming to us and saying, "Hey, we want to build an integration to this product, to that product." We can do that very easily now. We can provision not-for-resale software. We can provide them with the APIs. We can provide them with some simple instructions on how to leverage them. And we're finding that some of these partners that are coming to us are now able to build these integrations very quickly.   And the third area that I would highlight is that one of the things that I thought was missing for the company when I joined really late 2015 or early 2016 timeframe, was that we didn't have a partner strategy centered around consulting partners and system integrators. We had been talking to a few and have been having some conversations with some. But I saw that as really a missed opportunity to align ourselves to some very well positioned, very focused consulting organizations that are really centered on the identity access and privilege access domains in particular, and for us to align ourselves with them to create new opportunities for us and for our salespeople, as well as scale our delivery service capability.   So as we're growing, one of our constraints or one of our challenges has been keeping up with demand for consulting services to implement our technologies. And so we aggressively recruited and onboarded about a half dozen or so boutique consultancies last year, and that's paying off for us really well. They're getting certified and getting consultants out there in the market who can implement our products and create bench strength and scale for us on the delivery side. And just as importantly, they are also identifying net new opportunities for our technologies with their clients that we didn't know about previously. So that's creating some net new business for us through that effort as well. Those are the three things that I'd call out.   Jen: You've been busy. That's quite an undertaking in a fairly short period of time, which is really commendable. I want to dig into some of the results that you've been able to see. You shared with me previously kind of what happened in one year. Your channel business is up 100% year over year. Business through the channel has grown from 15% of the business to between 25% and 30%. I mean, is this the result of those initiatives? And also, is there anything else, any other great results that you've seen because of work that you've done in 2016?   Joe: Yeah, I think there's a couple of forces in play here, right? One is that we're in a high growth market, right? Our market segment's growing at over 30% per year. And so there's always going to be organic growth with what you've been doing. So that's definitely attributable to some of the growth. But I think moreover and more importantly is that we've really aligned ourselves to not only the right partners that can help us, but we've also really narrowed our focus down.   So when I joined the company, we literally had hundreds of resellers in our system, and I couldn't get my head wrapped around how we had so many. And then of course, you look back at the history of our company, and for a long time, we were a growth-by-acquisition company and we came together as BeyondTrust four or five years ago through the acquisition of four or five different companies. And with each acquisition, it brings a different partner base with it, right? And we never really rationalized that partner base.   So this year, actually, last year, we started this process and we're going to continue to do it this year, but we've really started to refine our focus on the partners that we really want to proactively manage. That's not to say that we won't work on an opportunistic basis with any partner, but what we're doing with those other partners, what I call the tier-two partners, is we're rolling them underneath Westcon to help us manage and grow those partners so that we can take my direct team, right, the alliances people that we have on the team and have them spending the bulk of their time really building business with the core set of partners that we want to focus on.   So I think those are a couple of contributing factors that have really played a role in our success and the growth that we've achieved. We expect this year to again significantly grow the channel business. So we're excited about the prospects, excited about the opportunities. I think we've got many of the key things in place to enable that growth, and it's really just going to be a question of our ability to execute.   Jen: That's awesome. Anytime an organization grows, and especially when you're in channel and you grow so exponentially, it's exciting and it's amazing, it's great from a revenue perspective. It can also be a little bit painful. Just there's challenges anytime that you do grow. I'm wondering, could you share maybe some of the challenges that you faced or maybe some challenges that you're anticipating and how you're going to mitigate those?   Joe: Yeah. So there's always challenges as you highlighted when you are growing, and these challenges that are good problems to have. And I like what our CEO says. He says, "We don't run away from problems or challenges, we run towards them," right? And so that's the attitude of our company, which I love and I embrace that philosophy. Every time he says that, I kind of smile because that's kind of how I operate. I want to attack things and get after it, right?   But that being said, yeah, there's certainly growth pains. Now, there's a couple things that we did early last year in anticipation of the growth that we were expecting and wanting to drive, right? One was we needed to launch a partner portal. We had a large number of partners, some of whom were very active with us, some of whom were occasionally active with us. But we did not have a good vehicle for disseminating content, and for addressing the educational needs and the content needs of both our sales folks that work for the partners, as well as the technical folks that work for the partners.   And so we stood up our partner portal last year, which has been very widely adopted, and I would say it allowed us to centralize a number of the processes, chief among them, our deal registration process. So that's been fantastic. And that's a key metric that we want to measure as you get your registration volume year over year, and even at a granular level by partner or region or what have you. We can measure how that's building. It's an important leading indicator as to what's going to come out the back end of the funnel, one, or two, or three, four quarters later, right? So that's been great.   And I think that the usability of the portal and the intuitive nature of the portal has been great. We see very sticky behavior, very good evidence that a lot of our partners referenced the portal. They referenced it frequently and not just to do deal registration. We obviously can report and track on what artifacts they're accessing, how frequently those pieces of content are being accessed. We can look at that and kind of analyze, what's valuable, what's sticky, what's being consumed the most. And so all that's really, really important for us. And so that's been great.   Another challenge that we've had to deal with has been training this new class of partners that I spoke of, right, the consultants and the systems integrators. Having training in education capabilities, certification capabilities was a really important driver to help us scale. And we launched our BeyondTrust University early last year as well. And that, too, has been extremely well received. We probably have over 500 partner individuals across the globe that are engaged in BeyondTrust University either from a sales enablement, pre-sales enablement, or technical consulting enablement perspective. And we're now starting to turn out certified consultants who can actually help scale on the delivery side.   So those are a couple of highlights and things that we've had to overcome. And we're not done yet. We're never, I think, fully satisfied. We can always do more. But, those were a couple of really important foundational components that we needed to get in place to help scale.   Jen: Well, with all of those individual partner users, you were talking about those partner entities, you weren't talking about the companies, right? You're talking about actual individual people who are engaging with that content or who are phase two, your end customer. You've got all those folks. You've got over 4,000 organizations as customers. You've got half of the Fortune 100. I mean, I'm just baffled. Like how are you able to dedicate time to your individual partner entities? I know tiering's got to be a big part of that, not just the segmentation of types of partners but also tiering within. Is that something that you guys are doing as well?   Joe: Yeah, yeah. We did that last year for North America. We just completed our first pass of it for Europe, and we're in the process of doing it now for Latin America. And I think AsiaPac is a little different for us. We've kind of been working through a two-tier distribution model in AsiaPac from earlier points in our history and so there is less rationalization needed there, I believe.   But certainly, if I take North America for an example, we looked at the entire pool of literally over 300 reseller accounts that we had in our CRM system and we started winnowing that down and looking at it different ways. We said, "Okay, over the last two years, how much new business has been booked by each of those partners," right? And obviously, you typically see a 80/20 kind of formation there, where 80% of the revenue comes from the top 20% of the resellers. And we quickly realized that we've got literally hundreds in our system who haven't done any business with us over the last two or three years.   We also looked at how much renewal business is being handled by that pool of resellers, and we found that there is some that do a large number of renewals for us but there's an awful lot of onesie-twosies out there, right? Literally, we have a reseller that handles a couple of renewals for us a year, and that's the extent of it. So we value that. We don't want to just throw that out the window, but we look at the volume of it and we look at the alignment to the partner profile that I spoke of at the top and say, "All right, who are the top 12 that we want to focus on, or the top 15," and really zero in on those resellers and say, "Okay, how do we sit down and build a business plan that's meaningful for both companies?"   And for us, we're kind of looking for anywhere from half a million in net new product license bookings or more from those kinds of partners, and whether they've done that historically or not may not necessarily be the critical decision factor. Maybe a partner has only done 250,000 with us but they've only been working with us for six months and we believe that they've got the right DNA, the right profile to really take that up to the right level.   So that's kind of how we've done some tiering here in North America. And I'd say that we're really focused on probably the top 10 or so resellers, and then there's a cadre of consulting partners maybe 15 or 20 in total that we're either on board with or working with in some capacity to try to figure out whether they belong in that bucket or not. But taking it from literally 300 down to 15, 20 is a much more manageable number, and we believe that by providing that focus that we're going to see more benefits coming out of those relationships.   Jen: Thanks for sharing that. I think it's really, really helpful to a lot of people who are in a similar situation that you're in. And on that note, the last question I really want to ask you is if you have any sort of concise piece of advice that you can give fellow business development professionals who might be in a situation similar to the one that you embarked upon when you joined BeyondTrust, any words of wisdom that you can share?   Joe: Yeah, I'd piggyback on the first point about the partner profiling, and say that it's really important that you understand what your targets looks like. And then the second thing, which is really important, once you start getting into discussions and conversations with potential partners, you really need to understand what the win is for the partner. And it kind of amazes me that a lot of times, people don't step back and ask that question or even understand that and they may assume that, "Oh, these guys are VAR, therefore, they're only interested in margin on the sale of products."   Well, the landscape is changing out there, right? I don't really believe that organizations that may have historically survived and thrived on just being product-resale companies are going to survive, right? We're seeing a lot of evidence that traditional resellers are morphing into what I call a solution provider, and they're trying to solve problems for clients that includes products, that includes services, and it may include managed services.   So the landscape is shifting a little bit, but the point being is that it's really important for you to understand what the win is based on the partner you're talking to. And, one partner may say, "Hey, I'm only interested in selling product." Fine. Another partner may say, "Well, we do some product resale but we're really in the consulting business." Or it might be obvious from the onset that they're in the consulting business but, they like referral margins on the back end of deals, too, right? So trying to be flexible, trying to frame and understand the win for the partner is equally as important as understanding what the win is for you. So that's my piece of advice.   Jen: I think that's great advice. We can always be better listeners. Really listen to what our partners need and what's going to make them successful. That's fantastic. You know, Joe, before I let you go, before we totally sign off here, I always put people through a little bit of like a fun personal speed round, so ask some questions that kind of dig in a little bit, get to know you as a person a little bit more. Are you up for it?   Joe: Yeah, sure, why not. Sounds like fun.   Jen: All right, all right. So easy questions. First one is what is your favorite city?   Joe: My favorite city, oh, that's a good one because I've been to so many great cities. Honestly, my heart belongs to New York.   Jen: Good. What do you love most about New York?   Joe: I grew up in the New York area and I've always loved it. It's a city that, honestly, you can pretty much do anything within the bounds of law, of course.   Jen: Right, right.   Joe: Do anything, see anything, experience, any kind of entertainment, any kind of cuisine. It's just an amazing city to me. I've always loved it. But I've got to tell you, I do love London and I love Tokyo. I got to Tokyo last year and I am absolutely amazed by Tokyo and I'm dying to go back. I was only there for two days, and if I can figure out how to go back for 10 days, I think that'd be like my first choice. And I may come back with a different opinion about what my absolute favorite city is after some real time in Tokyo I think.   Jen: That's a really long way to travel for two days. Wow, wow. You need to go back.   Joe: It was a total of a 10-day trip in Asia but we only had 2 days in Tokyo.   Jen: Yeah, okay. That makes more sense. Okay, second question, are you an animal lover?   Joe: Oh, yeah, definitely.   Jen: Yeah. Do you have any pets?   Joe: We've had some pets from time to time, cats, hamsters, fish those sorts of things. I'm an absolute dog lover. But here's the thing, I travel so much and my kids are getting older and heading off to college. And, it's always been one of those things that we'd love to do, but at the same time, we've always felt that owning a dog would be unfair to the dog because you need to be around to spend the right time with them and treat them like any other family member quite frankly.   Jen: Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. Okay, next question, Mac or PC?   Joe: Oh, gosh. If I ever had the choice of having a Mac for a work tool, I would say Mac. But I never seem to get that choice so I have to go with PC. I'm using a Microsoft Surface and I actually love it. It's great, very lightweight, very reliable. And you can use it as a tablet as well, so it's got some nice flexibility.   Jen: Yeah, everyone who I meet who has one absolutely loves it, so that's great. My last question for you is let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to?   Joe: It would probably be Italy, and I'd have to say Tuscany in particular. For me, Tuscany is kind of the perfect balance between my need to see things and do things, but you can kind of find the peace and tranquility to relax when it's time to do that, too. It also has that phenomenal food and wine aspect to it that I love. So Tuscany, I'd take it any day.   Jen: Wonderful. Sounds lovely. I was picturing myself being there as you were talking about it with a glass of wine, of course. So thank you. Thanks so much for sharing your time with me, with us today, Joe. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to connect with you?   Joe: Find me on LinkedIn. It's Joseph Schramm, S-C-H-R-A-M-M. Easiest way to find me. There's not too many of me out there that I'm aware of at BeyondTrust. So yeah, I would welcome the opportunity to chat with anybody or kick any of this stuff around. It's good fun. I'm passionate about it. I enjoy it and would welcome the opportunity to talk to people.   Jen: Wonderful. Well, again, thank you so much. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day. And thanks everyone else for tuning in, and join us next week for an all-new episode.   Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the resource center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone.

Jay McBain, Global Advisor at Channel Mechanics, joins me, Jen Spencer to discuss shadow channels and the shift from IT buying power, verticalization (or hyperfocused vectorization), the future of the channel and more on this episode of The Allbound Podcast. Jen: Welcome to The Allbound Podcast, I am Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I'm joined by Jay McBain who co-founded the company ChannelEyes, currently serves as Chairman Emeritus of the CompTIA Vendor Advisory Council and Managed Services Community. He is a Board member of the Channel Vanguard Council, the Ziff Davis Leadership Council, and CRN Channel Intelligence Council. In short, this man knows channel. Welcome, Jay. Jay: Thanks, Jen, really appreciate it. Glad to be here. Jen: Absolutely. Well, it's good to have you. And especially, really wanting to get caught up with you and what's going on in your world and I'm sure our listeners are also really interested about five months ago, you took on a free agent status. You said, "Okay, I'm leaving ChannelEyes," which was the channel tech startup that you helped co-found. So catch us up, what's had your attention the last year or so? Jay: Yeah, absolutely. I had spent the last while at ChannelEyes as CEO and they're working on some really interesting stuff around predictive analytics and artificial intelligence. And I think in the next three to five years, most of us in the channel will be using computers to help us do our daily tasks...help us with our daily tasks and get us to the finish line faster. And I think now that the company transitions to a CEO that can better position the company with some of the leading CRM players in the market like Salesforce and Microsoft. And who knows, further down the road, to really make something happen. Jen: Great, great. So what are you focused on right now as a channel professional in your world? Jay: That's a great question and I was at CompTIA last week and probably answered the question at least 100 times so... Jen: I'm sure. I'm sure. Jay: One of the answers is I spent almost 20 years working at IBM and Lenovo in different channel roles including channel chief roles. And they were always Americas based, either North America or full Americas, and I never really got a lot of exposure to Europe and Australia and Asia-Pacific. And what I've decided to do in the last five months is work closely. I've been to Australia and going back again working with a very large telco there, I'm working with this great company in Ireland which is where I'm sitting right now in Ireland. The company is called Channel Mechanics and they've really looked at the channel management space and they've done some really innovative things. So looking internationally but also looking obviously to work with some very interesting challenges, which I'm sure we'll touch on on this podcast. Jen: Great. So let's, dig in to some of that. I've followed a lot of what you've been writing about specifically around channel, something that you previously called out, is that a large number of channel programs that tend to get stuck in the exact same place. And you wield it down to two key conclusions. So one, that some vendors will simply win because their product wins. And then two, that other vendors will win because they know how to influence the channel. So I'd like to know, what do you mean by that? Jay: Yeah, this is one of my kind of personal passions and I think it started when I read the book "Tipping Point" by Malcolm Gladwell. He's got this great chapter early on in the book. I think it's chapter 2, about Paul Revere. What a great connector Paul Revere was in 1776 and why that won the day more so than riding a horse through all these towns, and why the other person who left on horseback that night wasn't successful. And this idea of influencers or connectors and super connectors, when I moved to the United States from Canada in 2009, I looked at the market and looked at the millions of people that participate in the channel and I didn't have 15 years to catch up to the relationships that I had in Canada at the time. So I kind of boiled it down and said, "What is this influence and how would you measure it?" And in 2009, I generated a list of the top 100 most influential people in the global channel and I did it again, actually, about 4 months ago on my blog. And seven or eight years had passed and it's interesting to see people have changed positions and everything else. But it's a very analytical numeric way of assigning scores for people's influence. And just to give a quick synopsis is back in 2009, I figured out that there are 16 magazines that channel people read. There's 150 trade shows globally that channel people go to. There's thousands of vendors. There's dozens of distributors. There's bloggers, thought-leaders, associations, analysts. When you look around this web of influencing sites, what people read, where they go, and who they follow, it's across different mediums but they're all available. So I took and read every magazine. I wrote down every name of everyone in the magazines. I went to most of the trade shows in my first year and took note of who the keynote speakers, and the advisory council, and the board members, and all the key people at these events. I did the same for peer groups. I did the same for the associations and analysts. And as I came around, I came to about 1,000 names. But what was more important to me is how visible they were across multiple different communities. In our channel, it's so wide and diverse. But more importantly, it's decentralized. Channel partners don't have the time to go and read 12 magazines. So they tend to focus on one community and at most, maybe two to get their information to reinforce their expertise and to really peer network. And we look at these organizations, there's about 30 of them in North America that they're a part of. And I was really looking at how many people influenced in more of these 30 communities. And really, for me, reach was more important than maybe... that's all I could find out on Google. I couldn't find out how important they were in each community but I could definitely measure their reach. And so, I just added this really simple spreadsheet, and I just started adding check marks beside each name every time I saw them more than once. And after 1,000 names and thousands and thousands of check marks, I just sorted by whoever had the most check marks. And interestingly enough, in 2009, Larry Walsh, who was long time CRN editor, kind of patriarch of the channel, but he ranked number one and I didn't know who Larry Walsh was but I knew I had to go meet him. And then, all the way down the list I wanted to meet. And as I met probably 20 to 30 of the top 100 people, the other 70 came rushing to me. Not because I was important but because they sensed that I was doing this and talking to these important people and maybe I was important. But to a connector, they don't want to be left in the dark. So it's really important to them to know what's going on and to be able to kind of stay on the inside of things. So it was kind of really fascinating and over the last seven or eight years, I've written a lot and I've studied the level of influence that people have in the channel and there's a direct correlation between people having a high influence and carrying their company to great new heights. Jen: I think that holds true, regardless of what sort of industry or what segment of the market you're in, especially from that leadership perspective. I think it's also interesting, we talk to a lot of folks who are not your traditional type of channel organization, not your traditional enterprise IT company. Maybe they're a small or more mid-market size organization, software company, ready to kind of build a channel. A lot of folks are looking at an agency-based program. Upcoming on a future podcast episode, I'm going to be interviewing Pete Caputa from HubSpot who's now at Databox and has assured us that he's building the agency partner program to end all partner programs. And so when I think about influence, I think about an individual like that. So would you say that this concept of influencing the channel is just as strong in the evolution of where channel is going? Is it even more important than ever? I mean, what is your take on it because looking at 2017 compared to 2008, not that much time has gone by but there's been a lot of change in that time period? Jay: Well, there absolutely has, and some of the things I wrote about later last year, I call them shadow channels. But I've got this personal belief that your average vendor, their channel program is going to grow by at least 5X in the next three or four years. And the reason really goes back to the customer buy-in journey. And people at HubSpot know this very, very well but over the last 10 years, 90% of all IT decisions 10 years ago were made in the IT department. Makes sense, CIO. And today, it's flipped completely where 72% of all decisions are made outside of the IT department. It's now the VP of sales and marketing, operations, and finance, and HR, and all the way down the line that are making big technology decisions that are business decisions. And what's happening to traditional vendors is sometimes they're not in the room. Well, most cases, they're not in the room. When a VP of marketing like yourself is making a technology decision, a lot of times you don't have the person who's fixing your printer in the room. Jen: Wait, wait, hold on. Jay, I'm the person who fixes the printer here, so should it be someone else fixing... Jay: Oh. Jen: Just... Jay: That's right. Startup life, you know. Jen: Startup life. Yeah, I know, I'm sorry, I had to insert that. I had to insert that. But no, no, I agree with you 100% what you're saying, right? So I buy technology all the time and we do have someone here who's responsible for overseeing all technology and he has a zero influence on what I choose to buy to run our sales and marketing team. Jay: Right. And so, in the sense of if you put yourself under traditional vendor's space and you're trying to install traditional hardware, like you're selling software or other services, and now you need to get in front of Jen Spencer and, you know, who are you using to influence you. You might have somebody from HubSpot or Marketo in the room. You probably have somebody from your industry in the room that's a tech expert on your industry. In some cases, this could be accountants. They could be legal firms. They could be digital agencies. In your case, it might be a digital agency in the room. You could also have other ISVs in the room that play in ecosystems like a Marketo or HubSpot or Pardot or whichever one you play in. They're going to be in there because they know how to drive more leads for a company specifically like yours. You may have a startup in the room that's built with piece of technology and you're going to be one of their early customers so they want to make sure it succeeds. But you look at the five people in the room and it's not the printer person. It's not the person that installed your phones. So in other words, it's not the IT department. And so, if you're a traditional vendor spending all your time trying to recruit MSPs and solution providers and VARs from days gone by, guess what? You just missed out of a technology decision because your influence isn't in the room when it was made. Jen: Right. Jay: Now put yourself in the shoes of...let's talk VP of marketing and let's talk ambulatory care...healthcare clinic, midsized, 50 doctors, in the Northeast U.S. And in the room with that VP of marketing, again, it's probably that person from Marketo, HubSpot, Pardot, whatever it is, Eloqua, probably somebody that is an expert in healthcare driving leads for midsized clinics who's had success in the past, with five other clinics of the same size and scope. But these five people are different five people than what the IT department would have in the room. And so, you're not talking about routers and PCs, and you're not talking about, traditional licensing and everything else. You're talking about driving more leads or you're talking about a marketing problem. And to be relevant, vendors either a) need to train their current channels to be valuable to the VP of marketing in the clinic, which is less likely to happen. It's more likely that they then have to go and recruit and nurture these five other types of partners, and you call them alliances. You can call them whatever you want but the incentive is different, the way you manage them and measure them is different. The entire relationship is different. But the point is, there's so many more rooms that you have to be influencing now that your channel program is just invariably going to grow. Jen: So, you call these “shadow channels”, and when I think about like shadow marketing, shadow IT, usually, it's a very negative connotation to it. There's work going on that's outside of your viewpoint, that is in most cases negatively-impacting whatever the core function is. But what you just described doesn't sound negative, right? So are these shadow channels, is this the future? Is this a good thing for these organizations? Jay: Yeah, well, there's good and bad. And depending on the audience that I talk to, is which one I'll start with. The good news is businesspeople are now making business decisions around technology. All companies are becoming technology companies and all other professional organizations and industry, association, everything else, are becoming technology-based just because that's the way world works. All 27 industries now are pretty much 27 tech industries depending on agriculture, fisheries, or whatever they do. You know, that's become such a big role. So, the world has changed. And the reason it was called shadow IT or rogue IT is back in the day, where 10%, and then it became 20%, and then 30% of decisions are made by these people who have no idea what's going on with technology and they don't understand security and they don't understand backups and disaster recovery and they're not of the adult in the room which, you know, the CIO or IT department would claim to be. And so they were rogue, they need to be stumped. Well, the fact of the matter...and these are Gardener numbers, by the way, 72% of all the decisions today are now made outside of IT, so it's no longer rogue or shadow. It is literally the new normal. And the prediction by 2020 is that 90% of all decisions will be made outside of IT. So in 10 years, there's been pretty much a 180-degree turn in terms of where the decisions are made. And this isn't changing. And businesspeople are making business technology decisions and that's the way the world should work. It's been a big boom for SaaS companies. And it's been pretty hard for technology companies and hardware companies, specifically, because they're trying to still find their place in these conversations when these decisions are being made outside of their normal feasibility. Jen: It makes perfect sense and it's a good opportunity for consultants, for people like yourself to let you go in and really help some of those organizations along this evolution of the way that channel and selling today, tech buyers today has definitely changed. I want to ask you now about another topic that you've written about, that you spoke about. You talked about channel vectors or vectorization. And you said that verticalization is being replaced by hyperfocused vectorization. So I'm hoping perhaps you can clarify what you mean by that. And then, I want to explore, what today's executive needs to consider as he or she is scooping out plans to grow through channel over the next 5 years, because there are a lot of these organizations that maybe they've hit $10 million in annual recurring revenue and they're looking at, "How do we get to $100?" And they're looking at channel as a way to do that. So what do they need to know from this new vectorization perspective? Jay: Yeah, it's another example of me making up a word and then all of a sudden... Jen: I love it. Jay: It's really good for Google SEO if you actually make up your own word. It's actually pretty cheap, first of all. But all kidding aside, let's go back to the healthcare VP marketing in a midsized clinic. And you're looking at the 5 people in the room and 10 years ago, for an IT provider, it was okay to say, "Hey, I got to move from being a generalist to a specialist." "Well, what are you going to do?" "Hey, well, I'm going to specialize in healthcare." "Well, that's fantastic." So what they do is they go out and read HIPAA and HITECH, and, they get a couple people certified, and they can talk their way out of a paper bag when it comes to patient records and compliancy and even some legal. But again, the world in this journey has changed things for them. So if you're that VP of marketing at a midsized clinic and you have somebody in your office that says, "Hey, I know a lot about healthcare." You're like, "Well, that's great. That's one of the vectors. What would be even better is if you knew not only healthcare but midsized clinics, so the sub-industry. The fact that you put in a solution for a 500-doctor firm probably doesn't have a ton of relevance to me because I don't have those resources. So that's another thing. The fact that you installed in Colorado may not be as relevant as it is in New York because of the different statewide bureaucracy and everything else. I mean, there's just that 50 different systems in 50 different states. So if you start asking these questions, there's actually five vectors. And as a VP of marketing in a midsized clinic, you're not going to ever get that perfect person who has all five. "Listen, I've just done the last five clinics exactly your size, just down the street. I've just done your competitors. They're the guinea pigs. I know exactly what to do. Here's my price. I can get started right away." That would be perfect. That doesn't work. So all you only end up doing is, "If somebody knows healthcare that's better than not knowing healthcare." I put that in quotes, air quotes. But that's one vector. So, flipping it aside, "I want somebody who knows my business. I want somebody who's been successful in my sub-industry. I want to know somebody who's been successful in marketing. I don't care if you put in an accounting app, or I don't care if you put in an IT solution. I need the drive leads. I need you to be focused on my line of business. I need you to be focused on my sub-industry. I need you to focus on my region." So these are the types of things that you push back on. And if you can get two or three out of five, it's much better than just getting that generalist in the room who might have one out of five, or none out of five. Jen: I think that's such a good kind of point to make and maybe even to end on here, because we've talked about how the channel is no longer just a channel. It's no longer just kind of a one-way street or even a two-way street. I mean it is a complete ecosystem. The story you just spun about healthcare IT, about being able to plug in to Salesforce to really put that on steroids to make it work for somebody to do their business, I mean that is absolutely our present and our future of the way that sales ecosystems are growing. And organizations that embrace it, organizations like Salesforce, organizations like Microsoft, that embrace that type of channel environment are reaping the rewards of it, the benefits of that in addition to their partners as well. So I love it. I'm glad you invented the word vectorization. I'll have to start using it. Jay: Great to participate. I've actually wanted to do this since you started. But one of the key things is you asked me to look forward five years. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Jay: Vendors need to look at the toolset that they're using. And many of the tools that they're currently managing the current triangle of gold and silver and bronze partners they have the same program they built 20 years ago, they need to refresh their tools. If they're going to grow their channel by 5X, they need to seriously look at a tool like GoalBot, take collaboration to a completely different level. They need to look at a tool like Channel Mechanics. They need to look at new, fresh thinking around how to do this because if you try to force-fit your old ecosystem, your old infrastructure into this new world, it's going to be very, very difficult. And many vendors are now realizing that and looking for those right SaaS companies and others to plug together, to kind of manage these new channels, measure these new channels and set these new channels. And in the end grow with these new channels. Jen: Absolutely. I mean, it's that old saying that, "What got you to where you are today may not be what's going to get you to where you want to go tomorrow." And so, I agree wholeheartedly with that assessment. Thank you so much. I'm not going to let you go just yet, though, Jay. So since you said you listened to the podcast, you've been excited about being on it, then I'm going to ask you some other questions. So you already know this is coming. Jay: I know it. Jen: Okay. All right. So, yeah. Well, I'd like to ask some more personal questions just so we can kind of shake things up and get to know a little bit more about you as a person. So first question I want to start with is what's your favorite city? Jay: Oh, that's a good one. I have traveled to 27 countries now. All of that spent on vacation, one of the blogs I write is "Rollerblades and Red Bull," the idea is to get to every country in the world. Right now, it would be tough to say the absolute but I would say Prague. Jen: Prague, awesome. I haven't been there but I've heard amazing things about it. So I heard it's a really beautiful city. Jay: Very, very difficult to rollerblade in, by the way. Jen: Okay, I won't try that, at least not the first time I go. Okay. Question number two, are you an animal lover? Yes or no? Jay: Yes, we have...we just actually...we had two dogs and one cat. And they were all 13 or 14 years old and we lost them all within 6 months. But, we're kind of in that mode now. We've got two young daughters as well I've got two daughters in college. But we're thinking about the family pets now and looking at different breeds so very excited to rescue some new pets. Jen: Oh, good. Well, you have to keep us posted. We love pets at Allbound. Our pets have an Instagram account called "Allbound Critters." So when you do have a new pet join your family, you have to let me know so I can give you guys a shout-out there. Jay: Will do. Jen: Okay, next question for you, Mac or PC? Jay: Well, being a 20-year IBM and Lenovo guy, the answer's going to shock you, I'm 95% Apple. So from iPhones to Watch to the laptop I'm on right now, everything, except for real work, is on an Apple. When I talked about analyzing the thousands of people that run this industry and running all these AI and macros and heavy, heavy lifting, I have one super-powered, liquid-cooled, top-end gaming machine at home that I do serious work on. But everything else is Apple. Jen: Everything else is Apple. All right. All right. There you go. And last question. Let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses paid trip, where would it be to? Jay: That's a good question. So back to visiting every country in the world, the next, probably Middle Africa. Jen: Oh, what interests you about Middle Africa? Jay: A) that I haven't been there. Jen: Okay, yeah. Jay: I've been to most regions... You know, when I see the weather report that has 50 or 60 cities, most of them...well, almost of them I've been to. So now, I'm in the mode of, "I've got to go to dangerous places now." You can't go to the Middle East. A lot of Africa is off-limits. But it gets much harder to travel once you've knocked off the easy ones. Now you've got to start knocking off ones that have government warnings, or can add a little bit of risk. So that's what entices me about going to Middle Africa and maybe at Uganda, or Kenya, and help build schools or do something good for the world. Jen: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much. Thanks for joining me, for sharing some of your time with us, especially calling in from Ireland where I know it's late at night. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally, what's the best way for them to connect with you? If folks want to talk about going to Kenya with you, or they want to talk about fixing their channel, how should they reach you? Jay: Absolutely. My website, my blog that most of what we've talked about today, is jaymcbain.com. It's jaymcbain.com. There is at least 50 ways on there that you can contact me through every social and my cellphone and everything else. If you just want to hit me with a quick tweet. It's the letter "J" mcbain, M-C-B-A-I-N, so jmcbain. Hit me there and we can go from there. Jen: Perfect. Well, thanks again, Jay. Thanks, everyone else, for tuning in, and catch us next week for an all-new episode of The Allbound Podcast. Announcer: Thanks for tuning in to The Allbound Podcast. For past episodes and additional resources, visit the Resource Center at allbound.com. And remember, never sell alone

What is Puerto Rico? Many Americans - if not most - are unaware that Puerto Rico is a part of the United States. In this episode, learn the history of our scandalous treatment of the US citizens living in Puerto Rico and explore how Puerto Rico’s past foreshadowed the United States' present… and possibly our future. Please support Congressional Dish: Click here to contribute with PayPal or Bitcoin Click here to support Congressional Dish for each episode via Patreon Mail Contributions to: 5753 Hwy 85 North #4576 Crestview, FL 32536 Thank you for supporting truly independent media! Recommended Congressional Dish Episodes CD128: Crisis in Puerto Rico Additional Reading Book: War Against All Puerto Ricans by Nelson A. Denis, March 2016. Article: Puerto Rico Warning Congress Its Health Crisis Will Impact U.S. States by Suzanne Gamboa, NBC News, March 22, 2017. Document: Testimony of Jose B. Carrion III, Chairman, Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico, March 22, 2017. Article: Why the GOP's proposals to cap Medicaid funding won't work by Ana Mulero, Healthcare Dive, March 21, 2017. Article: Fed Raises Interest Rates for Third Time Since Financial Crisis by Binyamin Appelbaum, The New York Times, March 15, 2017. Letter: Fiscal Plan Certification, Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico, March 13, 2017. Press Release: Jenniffer Gonzalez Calls for Fiscal Oversight Board Action to Prevent Medicaid Crisis by Jenniffer Gonzalez-Colon, March 13, 2017. Article: Tensions heighten following control board rejection of fiscal plan by Luis J. Valentin, Caribbean Business, March 9, 2017. Article: A bad deal for Puerto Rico, Globe control board opinion, The Boston Globe, March 5, 2017. Article: Quest for statehood: Puerto Rico's new referendum aims to repair economic disaster by Danica Coto, Salon, February 3, 2017. Letter: Letter to Governor Rossello Nevares, Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico, January 18, 2017. Article: Puerto Rico's New Governor Takes Over as Debt Crisis Reaches Climax by Tatiana Darie, Bloomberg, January 3, 2017. Article: Puerto Rico Control Board Names Carrion Chair Amid Protests by Katherine Greifeld, Bloomberg, September 30, 2016. Article: Puerto Rico's Invisible Health Crisis by Valeria Pelet, The Atlantic, September 3, 2016. Op-Ed: Understanding Puerto Rico's Healthcare Collapse by Johnny Rullan, Morning Consult, June 20, 2016. Article: Puerto Rico not sovereign, Supreme Court says by Richard Wolf, USA Today, June 9, 2016. Article: US supreme court says Puerto Rico must abide by federal double jeopardy rule by Alan Yuhas, The Guardian, June 9, 2016. Op-Ed: No More Colonialism Disguised as Financial Assistance: The US Must Relinquish Puerto Rico by Nelson A. Denis, Truthout, May 19, 2016. Article: Sea Turtles Delay Debt-Ridden Puerto Rico's Gas-Switching Plan by Jonathan Crawford, Bloomberg, March 23, 2016. Article: There's a big sale on Puerto Rican homes by Heather Long, CNN Money, February 21, 2016. Article: The US shipping industry is putting a multimillion dollar squeeze on Puerto Rico by Rory Carroll, Business Insider, July 9, 2015. Article: Harvard's billionaire benefactor also a GOP sugar daddy by Vanessa Rodriguez, OpenSecrets.org, June 4, 2015. Interview: How the United States Economically and Politically Strangled Puerto Rico by Mark Karlin, Truthout, May 24, 2015. Article: Why Have So Many People Never Heard Of The MOVE Bombing? by Gene Demby, NPR, May 18, 2015. Article: Puerto Rico Expands Tax Haven Deal For Americans To Its Own Emigrants by Janet Novack, Forbes, January 27, 2015. Article: Citizenship Renunciation Fee Hiked 422%, And You Can't Come Back by Robert W. wood, Forbes, January 13, 2015. Article: Puerto Rican Population Declines on Island, Grows on U.S. Mainland by D'Vera Cohn, Eileen Pattien and Mark Hugo Lopez, Pew Research Center, August 11, 2014. Article: Puerto Rico woos rich with hefty tax breaks by Sital S. Patel and Ben Eisen, Market Watch, April 22, 2014. Article: Bankers Crashed the Economy - Now They Want to Be Your Landlord by Rebecca Burns, Michael Donley, and Carmilla Manzanet, Moyers & Company, April 2, 2014. Article: 'Backdoor bailout' boosts Puerto Rico's revenues, Bond News, Reuters, February 10, 2014. Article: Economy and Crime Spur New Puerto Rican Exodus by Lizette Alvarez, The New York Times, February 8, 2014. Article: Everything You Need to Know About the Territories of the United States, Everything Everywhere, June 27, 2013. Document: Puerto Rico's Political Status and the 2012 Plebiscite: Background and Key Questions by R. Sam Garrett, Congressional Research Service, June 25, 2013. GAO Report: Economic Impact of Jones Act on Puerto Rico's Economy by Jeffry Valentin-Mari, Ph.D. and Jose I. Alameda-Lozada, Ph.D. April 26, 2012. Article: Massive Puerto Rico pipeline triggers debate by Danica Coto, The San Diego Union-Tribune, May 14, 2011. Article: Island residents sue U.S., saying military made them sick by Abbie Boudreau and Scott Bronstein, CNN, February 1, 2010. Article: At Riggs Bank, A Tangled Path Led to Scandal by Timothy L. O'Brien, The New York Times, July 19, 2004. Case Study: Money Laundering and Foreign Corruption: Enforcement and Effectiveness of the Patriot Act by the Minority Staff of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, United States Senate, July 15, 2004. Article: MIT to Pay Victims $1.85 Million in Fernald Radiation Settlement by Zareena Hussain, The Tech, January 7, 1998. Article: Police Drop Bomb on Radicals' Home in Philadelphia by William K. Stevens, The New York Times, May 14, 1985. References U.S. Energy Information Administration Puerto Rico Territory Energy Profile Puerto Rico Territory Profile and Energy Estimates Average Price of Electricity to Ultimate Customers by End-Use Sector Video: 1985 Philadelphia MOVE bombing This Day in History: March 2, 1917: Puerto Ricans become U.S. citizens, are recruited for war effort FBI Files Pedro Albizu Campos - includes letter about his radiation torture Pedro Albizu Campos - full files Luis Munoz-Marin 1986 Congressional Report: US Army & US Atomic Energy Commission radiation experiments on US citizen prisoners 1995 Dept of Energy Report: Human Radiation Experiments OpenSecrets Excelerate Energy: Profile for 2016 Election Cycle Crowley Maritime Excelerate Energy Company website Lobbying Report American Maritime Partnership Company website Lobbying Report Financial Oversight and Management Board for Puerto Rico Control Board Website Control Board Document List Website: Puerto Rico Tax Incentives Law 20: Export Services Act Law 22: Individual Investors Act Department of Economic Development & Commerce: Act 73: Economic Incentives for the Development of Puerto Rico 26 US Code 936: Puerto Rico and possession tax credit IRS: Expatriation Tax Forbes Company Profiles Johnson & Johnson Pfizer GlaxoSmithKline Travelponce.com: Ponce Massacre Museum Sound Clip Sources Hearing: Oversight Hearing on The Status of the Puerto Rico Electric Power Authority (PREPA) Restructuring Support Agreement, Subcommittee on Indian, Insular and Alaska Native Affairs, March 22, 2017. Witnesses Panel I The Honorable Ricardo Rossello, Governor of Puerto Rico Mr. Gerardo Portela-Franco, Executive Director - Puerto Rico Fiscal Agency and Financial Advisory Authority Panel 2 Mr. Jose B. Carrion III, Chairman - Financial Oversight and Management Board of Puerto Rico Mr. Luis Benitez Hernandez, Chairman - PREPA Governing Board Mr. Stephen Spencer, Managing Director - Houlihan Lokey Mr. Adam Bergonzi, Managing Director & Chief Risk Officer - National Public Finance Guarantee Corporation Mr. Rob Bryngelson, President & CEO - Excelerate Energy Ms. Ana J. Matosantos, Member of Financial Oversight and Management Board of Puerto Rico Interview: Interview with Luis M. Balzac, March 7, 2017. Luis: Puerto Ricans in Puerto Rico, contrary to common opinion, we do pay some federal taxes. What we don’t pay is federal income tax. Jen: Okay. Luis: So we don’t pay federal income tax. However, Puerto Ricans pay Medicare at the same rate that you pay in San Francisco/California. Jen: Do Puerto Ricans get the same benefits that I get in San Francisco? Luis: No, we do not get the same benefits that you get in San Francisco. Jen: Oh. Luis: So, for example, there are states like California, New York, and other states that I believe get about an 83 percent federal subsidy for Medicare expenses. There are other states—and I realize I’m being recorded, but don’t quote me on it. This you can check, also, very easily— Jen: Sure. Luis: Other states—I think it’s Tennessee— Jen: And you don’t have to give me exact numbers. Just go ahead and, like, big picture, tell me the situation. Luis: Got it. Jen: Yeah. Luis: Even better. So, there are states like California and New York that get about 80-some percent of reimbursement on their major expenses from the federal government. There are other states that get less. I think Tennessee gets less; I think Tennessee gets, like, 50-some percent. Puerto Rico, I think it gets about 23 percent. Jen: Oh, god. Luis: It’s important to understand that, where does the other—if we use 23 percent as an example for Medicare—where does the other 77 percent come from? State funding. Jen: Okay. Luis: So, please understand that if you move to Puerto Rico as a U.S. citizen, and you, for any reason, need Medicare, and you go to the hospital, those hospitals that you go to have to comply with MCS, which is part of HHS—Health and Human Services. And you have to comply with all the regulations and requirements of a hospital to be reimbursed and enjoy federal dollars. However, that institution/Puerto Rico is only getting cents on the dollar compared to other states, but someone needs to make up for that short fall. Jen: Yeah. Luis: The state does. Jen: Well— Luis: That lack of equality translates to Puerto Rico’s budget. Luis: I’m a proud American, and I will defend our country wherever I go. Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: But I’m also a realist. I cannot expect Congress to give the people in Puerto Rico a fair share of the pie when we don’t have a delegation sitting at the table when the pie is divided. Luis: When I ran the office of the governor of Puerto Rico in New York, and we were lobbying to be included into the Affordable Care Act, my biggest argument, when I met with members of the Senate or the House, in states that had a large Puerto Rican population—Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, by way of example—my point to these members of Congress was, I need your help; I need you to be a voice to Puerto Rico to be included in the Affordable Care Act. And the staff would be like, are you kidding me, Luis? That is none of our business. And I will be like, well, let me—give me an opportunity to maybe convince you that it is your business. The problem is— Jen: Yeah, because you’ll pay for them when they come here. Luis: —you will pay for it. And by the way, we don’t even have a way to qualify because guess what, a lot of them are coming in, getting services, and going back to Puerto Rico once they’re done. Some are staying— Jen: Yeah, that's what I would do. Luis: Some are staying, but others are just coming here, and you have no way of qualifying and quantifying it because they’re United States citizens. You can’t stop it. Jen: Yeah— Luis: And how could you blame them? How could you blame them if Puerto Rico does not have the facilities to treat a cancer or SSI or any other initiative and my mother is risking her life? I’m going to take her to Orlando— Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: —without a doubt. Jen: Yeah. Luis: I will say that Puerto Rico, even though we have all the issues that you and I have been talking about, we are still part of the United States, and it’s somewhat similar to the changes that we see here, stateside, in the contiguous 48 states, where I would say that from coast to coast, from Florida to California, I think the middle class in the United States has been shrinking. Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: Likewise in Puerto Rico. Jen: Okay. Luis: But I would say that it is more like the United States, and we are not like Latin America and other third-world jurisdictions. We have a decent-size middle class because we don’t have the IRS because we are not paying federal income tax. There is in Puerto Rico a large underground economy where people work on the side, get paid in cash, and don’t report their earnings to the—there's no IRS—or to the local version of the IRS which is the Treasury Department. So, what you have in Puerto Rico is that you see somewhat of a thriving economy. So those people that are in commercial real estate and they’re doing business with big national chains like Macy’s and JCPenney and all that stuff, you will see in Puerto Rico sales records being broken and people spending a lot of money in the island. So, it’s not like the Dominican Republic. Even people in the projects that are subsidized by state and federal dollars, you can see that they have a/c in the walls, the projects are made out of cement, and you will be able to see all that when you go there in person. So, when you drive around Puerto Rico, all over the island, it is nothing like the Dominican Republic. We are way better, and— Jen: Well, I’ve never been there, either, so a comparison doesn’t really… Luis: Yeah. We are way better—and I realize that I’m about to contradict myself, okay?—we are way better, and it is thanks to the United States. So even though inequality has got all these problems and it’s affected the debt and all that stuff and we are looking now at serious issues, Puerto Rico is still better than—I will never move to Cuba because I think Cuba is better than Puerto Rico, so I get it— Puerto Rico is United States, and we’re doing better than most. Jen: So that brings me to the control board, because now we have Puerto Ricans saying on paper, no doubt, we want to become a state, and yet Congress just did this thing where your government, your state government, or closest thing—what do you call it? Territorial government? Luis: Yeah. Jen: Is that the proper phrase? Luis: Territory. Jen: Okay. Luis: Yeah. Jen: So your territorial government was, basically just taken over by this weird board that has some dictatorial powers. Is there any one in Puerto Rico that’s happy about this? Is there something I’m not seeing? Luis: Yeah. Okay, so, I’m going to compare that. First of all, let’s be fair, and we’re not the first jurisdiction that, let’s say, enjoys the benefit of a control board, because D.C., New York City, have both had it in different jurisdiction relationships, but they did, and it helped. Okay? Jen: O-kay. Luis: The difference between New York City is the following: you have a city that imposed a board by the state. So people in the city of New York, even though they had a control board years back, they had a control board what was decided by politicians who they elected. Jen: Yeah. Luis: Okay? Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: So, that makes it—but it’s still the same in that you have a higher jurisdiction imposing a control board for fiscal reasons over a lower jurisdiction. Correct? Jen: Yes. Luis: And then you have D.C. They also had a control board, and the list goes on and use the federal government, if I’m not mistaken. So there you have a jurisdiction of a federal imposing in D.C., which is not independent. Now, let me tell you where emotions can go a little crazy here. And remember I’m a stakeholder; I’m pro American. Jen: Yeah. Luis: However, we did not invite the United States of America, back a hundred-and-some years ago; we were invaded. Jen: Yeah. Luis: So, we are invaded, we are treated unequally, that inequality causes financial chaos. We are told by the Supreme Court that our constitution is not really a constitution—you should research that; that was recent—an opinion by the Supreme Court. So, really, our constitution, that we thought we had a constitution, is not worth anything on paper because Congress has complete control of that jurisdiction. Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: So, what we have is, back to your question about a board, is a federal government imposing a board on people who did not vote for those that imposed that board. Jen: Yeah. And I know that in Congress Puerto Rico has a representative at the time that this was created—I think it was Pedro Pierluisi—but he didn’t have a vote, so— Luis: No. Jen: And even on the board, the governor gets to sit at the table, but the governor of Puerto Rico doesn’t get a vote of the board. Luis: No. And there’s a slight correction to what you said about Pierluisi in your podcast: the resident commissioner does have a vote in Congress—not on committees, on subcommittees. Okay? Jen: Okay, so he has a vote on a subcommittee but not— Luis: No. Jen: —in the committee or the main House. Luis: Correct. Now, are you ready for the kicker? Jen: Yes. Luis: If the vote on a subcommittee comes to a point where the resident commissioner becomes the deciding vote, it doesn’t go. You’ve got to vote again. Jen: No! Luis: Yeah. Jen: So, that’s— Luis: Can I give you an— Jen: —kind of not really having a vote. I mean— Luis: No. Jen: —he does— Luis: No, I know. Luis: Let’s talk for a second about the pharmaceutical industry, okay? Jen: Yeah, because— Luis: Not to be confused— Jen: —just so that I’m on the same page as you, you worked for Pfizer for a while, too, right? Luis: I directed governor affairs for Pfizer, and that included jurisdictions of New York City and Puerto Rico. Jen: Okay— Luis: And San Francisco. Jen: —and when did you do that? Luis: I did that in 20—I took a year off of the government and I went to Pfizer, did not like it, then went back to Puerto Rico government. So that was 2011. Jen: So was that before the Clinton administration took away the tax credits or after? Luis: Oh, no, after. Oh, yes. Jen: Okay, okay. Luis: 2011, before I became a deputy secretary of the United States. Jen: Okay, got you. Luis: Okay. Jen: So this is after all the tax benefits were gone, and was Pfizer still—when did the pharmaceutical industry, like, leave Puerto Rico? When did they leave? Luis: No way. Why are you saying that? Jen: Because that's what I read. Luis: That's wrong. Jen: Is that not what happened? Luis: No! That’s wrong. I’m about to clarify that. Jen: Okay. Luis: All right. So, if you look at the pharmaceutical industry, if you search, let’s say, BIO, I believe BIO is still the pharmaceutical, big pharma association, the industry association, trade association, okay? If you look at that, you will see that in Puerto Rico BIO had a membership of a huge number of pharmaceuticals. And then you may look at BIO now, and the Puerto Rico chapter, which has another name, has way less pharmaceuticals. So the normal person that doesn’t understand how things work will say, well, everyone left. Well, let’s slow down and look at what are the names that are missing. Well, some of those names don’t exist anymore because the industry has completely merged and consolidated their resources. By way of example, I will tell you that in Puerto Rico alone, Pfizer bought Wyeth. Jen: Pfizer what? Luis: Pfizer bought Wyeth. Jen: Oh, okay. So, okay. Luis: Okay? Jen: Gotcha. So Pfizer got bigger by eating a smaller company. Luis: Correct. And there’s nothing wrong with that. So what happened was that I believe at that time when that happened, Pfizer had three operations in Puerto Rico, Wyeth had three operations in Puerto Rico, okay? So now when they merge, they have six plants in Puerto Rico. So what do they do? They are able to— economies of scale and to do streamline, and they are able to close two and stay with four. And now Wyeth is not in Puerto Rico— Jen: But the effect— Luis: —and people think Wyeth— Jen: Is the effect of that, of the people of Puerto Rico, that the people that worked in those two plants are now out of a job? Luis: But it has nothing to do with 936. Jen: Remind me. I did that episode, like, eight months ago. 936 was the tax credits disappearing? Was that…? Luis: That’s exactly—they disappeared with a coin toss, you said. Jen: Okay, okay. Thank you. Luis: So, so, that consolidation, that example that I’m sharing with you, I believe all happened after 936 stopped, but the reason why Pfizer and Wyeth consolidated was for reasons that had nothing to do with 936. Jen: Yeah. Luis: It had a lot to do with being more productive and being able to share assembly lines and being able to share resources and the same CEO and all that stuff. And so, to the untrained eye, to the Puerto Rican, what they think or see is, oh, Wyeth left. No, they didn’t leave; it was absorbed by a larger pharmaceutical. Jen: So, is the pharmaceutical industry still a major employer in Puerto Rico? Luis: Yes, it is. And I will tell something else: Pfizer and many pharmaceuticals, for many years, are enjoying tax benefits on—there’s something called CFC—controlled foreign corporations—and they are able to enjoy benefits that are comparable to 936. It’s just a different name; a different loophole, you want to call it—I don’t want to call it a loophole—it’s a different tax advantage. Luis: Remember, the pharmaceutical industry, way back when—and we’re talking about right after Puerto Rico changed from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing economy, okay? Jen: Mm-hmm. Luis: I really need you to follow me on this. Puerto Rico used to be sugarcane industry. Jen: Yeah. Luis: And we changed. Take my great uncle. He was the governor of Puerto Rico for the other party, the commonwealth party, and him and Governor Luis Munoz Marin came up with this tax incentive with the federal government and 936 were invented, and Puerto Rico changed—completely—and became a manufacturing economy. Jen: Okay. Luis: No more sugar cane; now we’re manufacturing. And when that happened, pharma came to Puerto Rico. What we have to remember is manufacturing industry also included, probably, the largest textile industry. Textile was huge in Puerto Rico. Now— Jen: Is it still there? Luis: No! Why—now, you’re smart. Why do you think textile is gone in Puerto Rico? Where is textile nowadays? Jen: Probably China, India. Luis: Yes, yes! So, in this case, it left to other jurisdictions for minimum wage and for a bunch of other reasons. 936? Yes! It was not great when it left, but the industry changed. Textile goes wherever you have the cheapest labor. And Puerto Rico— Jen: So— Luis: —cannot compete with India, China, Dominican Republic, where people get paid a dollar an hour. Forget it. You can’t compete with that. Jen: And it sounds like the same problem we’re having in California, in Texas, and Massachusetts, and everywhere. Luis: Yeah, yes. Jen: What would you like to see happen on the island? What do you think could help? Luis: Becoming a state. Jen: So that's the goal. Luis: Yes, without a shadow of a doubt, because if we become a state, we are able now to have the congressional mitigation to help us, and we’re able to fight for equal funding so that the state does not need to subsidize such huge percentages. And now we have an equal playing field. Now if I get in debt— Jen: Okay. Luis: Now if I get in debt, go ahead and criticize me all you want. Jen: Well, then you have bankruptcy protection if you go into debt. Luis: Also. Luis: So, you understand the reason why people are going to Puerto Rico is because of Law 20 and 22, right? Jen: Um, I don't know. No. Luis: So, I’m going to share with you the Law 20 and Law 22. Both laws were passed by Governor Luis Fortuno, which is a governor that I worked for. Jen: Okay. Luis: And those two laws were used, pushed, and promoted big time by the previous governor, Alejandro Garcia Padilla. You can do a quick Google, and you will see how most people went nuts over those two laws, and those two laws is the sole reason why people in stateside, mainland U.S., are fleeing to Puerto Rico to enjoy those tax benefits. Jen: Well, what are those benefits? Luis: I'm going to tell you. Jen: Okay. Luis: So, first, you have Law 20. Law 20 is better known as Export Services law, meaning you and I can open a corporation in Puerto Rico that exports services outside of Puerto Rico. Services, not manufacturing. So you and I can open a consulting firm that consults on any issue, and if our clients are not in Puerto Rico, if our clients are in Europe or New York or California, when that company in Puerto Rico bills those accounts, that corporation will only pay local four percent tax and no sales tax. Wow! Jen: Okay. That's crazy. Luis: Okay? So that means that you and I can have an existing company and have a law firm in New York, and you and I are the partners, and we’ll make—and let’s say that half of our clients are not in Puerto Rico, so why don’t we just open an office in Puerto Rico and do all the billing out of Puerto Rico and serve those clients from Puerto Rico—by the way, you and I can hire attorneys in Puerto Rico that are bilingual; graduated from Harvard, Yale, all those popular universities; pay even a fraction of what you and I would pay a lawyer in New York, and we bill them to the clients that are outside Puerto Rico, and we only pay four percent tax. That’s Law 20. It’s beautiful. Jen: Wow. Okay. Luis: All right. So, now, Law 20 was supplemented, complemented, by Law 22. Law 22 is called the Investor Act. So, now, you and I are the partners of that law firm, and we’ve moved operations and the corporation is only paying four percent tax, local tax, okay? Jen: Okay. Luis: Got it. You and I have not lived in Puerto Rico for the last 15 years. Jen: Okay. Luis: So we, you and I, have our attorneys will review Law 20, and what Law 20 says is you and I can move to Puerto Rico personally, and when we’re in Puerto Rico, our Puerto Rico-sourced income will be tax free. Jen: So the income—so, it’s the Investment Act. So are you talking about, like— Luis: Yes. Jen: —instead of paying capital gains tax, they pay nothing. Luis: Nothing. Now, it needs to be Puerto Rico-sourced income. That means that if you and I own Apple shares, or Microsoft, and we move to Puerto Rico, that’s passive income. We’ll pay taxes because that income is generated outside of Puerto Rico. Jen: Okay. Luis: But if you and I go to Puerto Rico like Paltry and Paulson moved to Puerto Rico, and we invest in property, and we invest in the business of Puerto Rico, that Puerto Rico-sourced income will be tax free. Jen: Federally or are there any state taxes? Luis: Both. Jen: Wow. So the state— Luis: I don’t have the law— Jen: —doesn’t even get anything from that. Luis: Well, yeah, they do because think about all the jobs. You know it’s crazy how much money is generated by having those people in Puerto Rico. Of course it generates— Jen: Yeah. I guess that makes sense. Luis: It’s called economic development. Yes, it generates—I have a lot of people that have new accounts with those individuals all the way from real estate, legal fees, engineering. They’re all millions and millions and millions of dollars that were not moving around the economy until they moved there. Jen: And so, are these two laws something that you personally support? Are they a good idea? Luis: I think it’s a good idea. We somehow need to generate some federal activity. Jen: We do, but at the same time, your government is broke. So isn’t raising revenues, isn’t that a solution? Luis: Well, no. Well, you know what? It’s a little contradicting, so when I say I endorse it, but I just told you a little while ago that I want to be a state. And if I was a state, that would probably not be possible. Jen: Yeah. Luis: Those two laws would not be possible if we’re a state, but guess what—we’re not a state. Jen: Yeah. Luis: And what the heck are we supposed to do? Jen: Yeah. I guess that’s true. You’ve got to play the hand you’re dealt. Okay. Luis: I would rather not have those two laws and be a state. Jen: Okay. That's fair. Luis: Education. I think that your podcast touched on education about 100 schools being closed. Jen: Yeah. Luis: Yeah, but how many people have moved to Orlando? We do not have— Jen: So there's not as many kids? Luis: No! No! Now, I’m going to defend, I’m going to defend this. With me, you may go crazy because I jump from side to side, so for one, one part of me says— Jen: I do that, too. I totally get it. Luis: One part of me says, the student body—I think the island student population went down from half a million to 400,000 students. That’s 25 percent. Jen: Okay. Luis: Okay. That means that I should be able to cut 25 percent of schools and 25 percent of my budget. Right? Well, let’s look at the other side. You and I, again, are married, right? Jen: Uh-huh. Luis: And you and I have a boat, and we have two kids, and the schools that we have our kids are three blocks away. Beautiful. Well, you and I bought a house because it was right next to the school. So now they’re going to close that school, and the next school is five miles away. Jen: Yeah. Luis: Are you and I pissed? Jen: Of course. Luis: I don’t give a crap that there’s less students. I’m going to picket, and I’m going to make a lot of noise, and I’m going to make it impossible for the government to close that school, which is what happens. You know what? Somebody else should sacrifice, not my wife and I. We have it good. I like to be able to walk three blocks and grab my children by the hand, have a beautiful conversation with them while we eat cookies, and we go to the school right next door. Well, guess what? The population is so much smaller now that somehow we cannot justify having the same number of schools open. I believe that happened in Chicago under new jurisdictions. We have to adjust. So guess who needs to deliver those bad news? The fiscal control board, because you cannot possibly justify having all those schools open. So who’s going to be the bad guy? Thank God there’s a fiscal control board, because if you leave, you allow the local elected official to make those decisions, it would be political suicide. And that transfers to any state. Ask any governor to close down 25 percent of schools, and they’re going to lose the election. Jen: Well, I mean, I think that’s just a part of the job. The problem— Luis: I know! Jen: —that I’m seeing as— Luis: No, but wait a second the problem is that the governor can’t do it because when you commit political suicide, and you need to support the legislature to do that, the elected officials in the legislative body would be the first ones that won’t back you up. They’ll say, you crazy? I’m not going to back you up; I want to get elected next time. That’s a huge problem. He says, I can’t do it without you. People are like let’s not do it; let’s let the other guy do it. And he’s like, no, we don’t have enough money. The students are leaving Orlando and New York. They moved away. We don’t need so many schools; we need to close. And the senators will be like, I’m not going to pass that law; are you kidding me? We’re all going to be out of a job. Jen: Well, I mean, and that’s the thing, like, maybe you’re not supposed to serve forever. Like, I just feel like those tough decisions are a part of a job of being elected, and one of my concerns of this control board is that those families, they can’t petition to this board. There is no voice for the Puerto Ricans where the governor doesn’t have a vote. I guess I’d feel more comfortable with it if I thought that those families could petition to their governor, and it would be one vote at the table that would have those political calculations in mind. But with these seven people that were selected by Congress, I mean, is there any concern that they’re going to prioritize the bankers over the Puerto Rican people? Luis: I think a lot of people are concerned about that. Cover Art Design by Only Child Imaginations

Jen: Hi, everybody. Welcome to "The Allbound Podcast." I'm Jen Spencer, Vice President of Sales and Marketing here at Allbound. And today, I am joined by Tim Harmon, Managing Director at Nuvello. Welcome, Tim.   Tim: Well, thank you, Jen. How are you?   Jen: I'm doing great. I'm loving living in Arizona in February. It is gorgeous. So my apologies to any listener who is knee-deep in snow right now. Come on out to Phoenix. It's beautiful. You know, Tim, so glad to have you here on this podcast. You know, most people in the channel space know you as being a Principal Analyst at Forrester Research. But then, earlier this year, you announced this new endeavor, that you've launched a new analyst consulting firm called Nuvello. So this is really exciting for us in the channel technology space. Tell us more. What's this all about?   Tim: Well, it is. I did leave Forrester in January and I am building Nuvello, which is essentially a new type of analyst consulting community and a new type of analyst consulting network really focused very much on channels. When I say network, the reason I use that term is because I don't profess to do everything that's knowingly in the Nuvello vision or plan all by my lonesome. And there are a plethora of very, very good and sharp independent channel consultants, I think, across the globe, and the intention is to bring them into the Nuvello network and to, in essence, create a more, you know, concerted analyst and consulting capability for, you know, both the chan-tech vendors that are attempting to support the primary target in our channel professionals.   Now, I use, also, the term, community. So the reason I did that is because the tech vendors themselves are going to have, hopefully, a lot of involvement in Nuvello. I'll just give you one example. I have believed for a long time myself that some tech vendors, a lot of tech vendors create a wealth of very good content, educational, you know, content. And I saw what you guys published in the last couple of weeks in terms of your own study and benchmark. I think that's a great example. So we want to source tech vendors' content to nuvello.com. You know, you could consider, for example, Jen, yourself, as another [inaudible 00:03:35] channel for your content, where, you know, Nuvello will ultimately, hopefully, become the ultimate go-to resource or channel professionals and practitioners, you know, for knowledge, tools, and benchmarks.   Jen: I think that's great. I mean, I know...I was speaking with one of the product marketing managers over at Salesforce a couple of months ago, and he was asking me, you know, "Where do people go to learn about, you know, channels sales and marketing? Where do they go to [inaudible 00:04:07] best practices and hear, you know, from each other?" You know, and I looked at him, I said, "Well, we're trying to create that ourselves, right?" So there hasn't been, really, a really strong kind of third-party resource for a channel professional to consume, you know, current content. So I think it's awesome. I think it's a really great resource that this community truly needs.   Tim: Well, thanks. You know, so combined with, you know, the knowledge content that Nuvello produces and the Nuvello network produces along with that the tech vendors produce, a lot of it is...well, in fact, all of it, for 2017, is going to be, you know, free. And, you know, ultimately, if we get to the point maybe next year where, you know, some of the Nuvello research, you know, might be, out [inaudible 00:05:17] associate with it, it's still gonna be, you know, very, very inexpensive. We're targeting companies really $50 million and above in revenue. So, again, one of the goals of Nuvello is to reach what we call the mass mid-market, which is different than other approaches, you know, taken in the industry.   Jen: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I have you here. I wanna pick your brain about a couple of topics related to channel and related to, you know, sales and marketing technology. The first is that, you know, you've been, over the years, very passionate about the fact that far too many channel organizations underutilize technology and enablement and growth of their channel partners. So, you know, I wanna dig in a little bit. What have you seen or what have you experienced that's particularly concerning about this?   Tim: So I had the opportunity...just giving you an example, Jen. I had the opportunity, a couple weeks ago, to moderate a panel at a channels conference. And one of the things that I did, I ran it kinda like a jeopardy game, at least [inaudible 00:06:33] beginnning. I asked, you know, digital transformation, you know, and so that was the answer. You know, what is the question? And you could well imagine that, you know, the three panelists came up with three, you know, quite different definitions for digital transformation, which tends, you know, to be the watch word of 2017, right, 2016, not [inaudible 00:06:55].   When I drilled down with folks that I'm working with and this particular topic comes up, it usually winds up being in the area of how we are going to, you know, change some of our process, just automate those process who's using modern technology for our customers. Almost always the case. It never comes up that we want to apply some of this digital transformation-thinking to our channel partners.   Now, what's ironic, though, is that if you...I mean, the same sort of benefits could be realized, right? So why do you want to affect digital transformation capability for your customers? To have more loyal customers, right, to have them do more business with you, to have them spread the word as advocates. You know, the same exact benefits and results can occur if you apply those sorts of principals and techniques and technologies to your channel ecosystem as well, more loyalty, more loyal channel partners, more invested channel partners, bigger advocates of what you do. And the very few examples I've seen of tech vendors and manufacturers and other B2B companies that have made this sort of chan-tech investment have reaped big benefits in doing so in terms of, you know, loyalty, productivity, and/or advocacy.   Jen: I think it's a really great...actually a great bridge to...I wanted to ask you next about customer success. And you've sort of hinted about, you know, building advocates and evangelists some under your channel partner group in SaaS in particular. When you think about like those $50-million, you know, fast growing mid-market organizations looking at channel, a lot of those players are gonna be software as a service organization. There's a lot of talk in the SaaS industry about customer's success, you know, evolving beyond just like client services or support. So can you share a little bit about where do you think channel sales and customer success either have been or need to intersect, you know, like today and then moving forward into the future?   Tim: And it's a great question. One of the things that I would kind of warn against is there is...and I've heard there's starting to be a slight little backlash, for example, the managed services provider segment of the channel industry. The very reason is that customers are saying, "You know, we had a three-year contract with you and we never saw you," right? "You know, you may have done a good job but, you know, there's someone else that's come along with greater economies at scale who can do the same, apply the same service at a lower price." And you drive yourself into a commodity type of a business environment, which is where I think most SaaS vendors and most channel partners don't want to be.   So, you know, I think channel partners have a vital role in, you know, kind of what their original purpose was. And one of the original purposes was that they had reached into segments of the market. And I'm talking about physical live face-to-face reach in the segments of the market that a tech vendor perhaps did not. And, you know, automation is great. You know, digital transformation is great. But I think, you know, channel partners have to maintain that personal relationship and that full life cycle enablement of technology solutions from, you know, building the business case to, you know, driving adoption that is ultimately what's going to make the difference between customer success or not.   Jen: That's a really great point. I think, you know, the key that I see there is continual collaboration, you know, between the vendor nor the supplier and those partners. As those partners have that face time with those customers, ensuring that that knowledge is transferred from the partner back up to the supplier. You know, typically, when we talk about knowledge transfer challenges, we tend to be a little short-sighted and think about it only from the perspective of how do I get all of this information about my product to my partners versus also looking at how do I get feedback and how do I get, you know, consumption information from customers via partners back up to, you know, the supplier who's creating the product. So...   Tim: Yeah, I think that's a key point, Jen. Most solutions, I think, today going forward are going to be ecosystem-delivered and supported solutions, right? So it's not that, you know, a tech vendor...I mean, you know, you turn back the calendar five years and there was this great fear that cloud software as a service was going to disintermediate the intermediaries, right? Who needs the channel partner? But that's turned out not to be the case. And, you know, the solutions are so involved and, you know, have so many tentacles even beyond the software aspect itself that you need to have all of your ecosystem forces aligned so that it appears to be an ecosystem of one entity even though it's really not. And that's, I think, where technology can really benefit. And it's absolutely required to provide one aligned phase to the customer where multiple ecosystem parties actually maybe involved in delivering value to the customer.   Jen: You know, one of the questions I get asked by a lot of CEOs at SaaS startups, you know...people are listening to this podcast or they're consuming content and they're talking to their colleagues about, you know, building these ecosystems, and a lot of them say, you know, "When do I start to build a channel partner program? Like, is there a certain revenue size I need to be at? Is there a certain gross stage I should be at?" You know, I'm curious. Like, you know, what do you think? You know, for a company who's just thinking about going to market via a channel partner program, is there a better or a best time for them to actually execute? Any words or wisdom that you have? I know a lot of our listeners are more emerging companies. Maybe they're not at that like $50-million a year stage yet. You know, what advice can you give them?   Tim: Well, and so that $50-million number is kind of, you know, the magic mark, right? I think that's when most companies do start to consider channels. And I think the reality is that most companies wait too late to start building their channels strategy and their channel programs. And they only do that when they see, you know, this revenue curves begin to flatten out a little bit. They wanna keep it going in a true northerly direction. I actually think that companies should probably start, well, I would say at the $20-million market peak mark. But, you know, if it was me, if I was the CEO of a SaaS startup, I'd start from day one. I'd have channel be part of my strategy. I don't know if you ever, you know, watch "Shark Tank" on [inaudible 00:15:12] or if any of the audience, but one of the common questions, you know, that Robert or Kevin or Mark will ask is, "What is your distribution strategy?" You know, and these are pretty small companies on "Shark Tank." So I think there's a lesson to be learned from that.   Jen: Yeah, you know, and I like to take a page out of [inaudible 00:15:37], you know, she asks, "How does your customer want to buy?" And I think, you know, that's something that I'll always kind of go back to those CEOs and say, you know, "How are people buying your product now? How are you supporting them right now? You know, what's working for you in this direct environment? And make the channel an extension, a natural extension of what you're already currently doing." And, you know, we're starting to see a lot of the companies, you know, building channel programs or thinking about building channel programs, you know, quite a bit earlier. You know, that's faster a few weeks ago. And it was a big topic of conversation which, for someone who geeks out on channel partners, that's awesome for me to hear. So I think we're gonna see that number, that kind of typical revenue number for starting. I think we're gonna see that drop especially with these companies that are just growing really fast and wanna maintain that momentum.   Tim: I think that would be good for all parties involved, tech vendors, channels partners, and particularly customers, if they did that. You know, the one thing that I would kinda leave on this note is think about some of the largest companies in the world, you know, consumer-oriented companies. Just take, you know, Coca-Cola. You know, one of the things about Coca-Cola is you can buy Coca-Cola products almost everywhere in the world through various different types of channels. And, you know, take a lesson away from that in that, and you said it, different customers want to buy in different ways from different entities in different geographies, and try to serve them all or as many as you can, you know, with the resources that you have at your [inaudible 00:17:30].   Jen: Perfect. That's a great example. So, Tim, you know, you're just introducing this firm, Nuvello. I know you've already got a few roadshow symposiums that are on the docket for this year. You've got one just kicking it off in San Francisco. You got it going to Boston, Atlanta, going over to London and Singapore. It's super exciting. So who's the right kind of person to attend one of these symposiums? And then, you know, if I am that kind of a person, you know, what can I anticipate by attending?   Tim: Well, yeah. So, again, we're hoping to help, you know, channel professionals and go-to market professionals in terms of, you know, their strategies, their models, their recruitment, their onboarding, their technology, utilization. That's gonna be a key, key factor. You know, those people that are involved in those sorts of decisions and the execution of those decisions. So, you know, we hope for a pretty broad audience. Different symposiums will have slightly different audience flavor.   I'll give you an example. You know, we'll address this later in the year. We are going to try to actually bring in a couple of ex-CEOs, retired CEOs that were at the helm when their companies became quite successful via their channels. You know, that might indicate a different type of audience, you know, slightly. But, you know, for the most part, particularly for these few roadshow symposiums, we're looking for those people that are, you know, really involved, I think, in, you know, the fairly early stages of their channel-taking and their channel-development.   Jen: Wonderful. And so if people are interested in, you know, taking a look at those symposiums, they just go to nuvello.com? Is that correct?   Tim: Yes. Yeah, that's right.   Jen: Perfect. Perfect. Well, so, before I let you go, Tim, you know, we talked channel, but I like to ask some more personal questions of all our podcasts guests here, just to learn a little bit more about you. Are you opened to that?   Tim: You should go for it.     Jen: All right. Okay, so my first question for you is what is your favorite city?   Tim: My favorite city?   Jen: Mm-hmm.   Tim: I'm just going to...my favorite city...it's not Phoenix. I'm sorry, Jen.   Jen: That's okay. That's not mine either.   Tim: [Inaudible 00:20:26]. One of my favorite cities is Ottawa, Ontario.   Jen: Oh, nice. I have to dig. Okay, what do you love about Ottawa?   Tim: You know, I think it's like the [inaudible 00:20:43]. So it's not too big, it's not too small. You know, there's lots to do. The people are great. It's safe. It's a four-weather climate, obviously, which I like. And it's got, you know, a lot of culture in it and a lot of sports activities, so professional sports, participant sports. So it just had a lot of things, you know, going for that I like.   Jen: Awesome. I love it. Second question for you, are you an animal-lover?   Tim: Well, yes, in general. Yes. Yeah.   Jen: Okay. But you're not gonna be inviting any into your home anytime soon? Is that what I'm hearing?   Tim: I have a couple of animals, actually.   Jen: Oh, you do. Okay, question number three. Mac or PC?   Tim: I'm neutral on that. I have one of both and I actually use them both about 50% of the time. So I'm an agnostic when it comes to that.   Jen: Oh, nice. My last question for you is, let's say I was able to offer you an all-expenses-paid trip, where would it be to?   Tim: Probably African Safari.   Jen: Sounds very nice. Well, thanks, Tim. And thanks for answering some of those more fun questions. Thanks for diving into some of those deeper questions about channel. If any of our listeners would like to reach out to you personally after hearing this, what's the best way for them to do so?   Tim: You know, there's a contact us at nuvello.com which, you know, if they wanna email me, the phone numbers are there. And, you know, you can also book my calendar at nuvello.com as well. So if you wanna, you know, actually schedule a time to talk with me, I'm open to that as well.   Jen: Wonderful. That's a really good resource, and we'll go ahead to link to nuvello.com from this podcast. Again, thank you for your time. I greatly appreciate it, Tim. It's been great catching up with you. And thanks, everyone else, for tuning in. And check us out next week for an all-new episode of "The Allbound Podcast."

STEVE: Welcome, everyone. Today I have a very special guest. I'm very excited. I actually have only met her only two weeks ago. It was pretty cool actually. I felt an immediate connection. Anyway, this is Jennifer Goodwin. How you doing? JEN: Good. How are you? STEVE: Fantastic. I'm doing really, really well. I was scrolling through Facebook, it was about two weeks ago, and ... I don't know if I've told you this yet, but I was scrolling through Facebook, and I saw an ad that you had out. It was ad for vets. I can't remember exactly what the ad was saying, but it said something like, "Hey, here is a way for vets to launch their businesses online." I immediately was like, "Whoa, this is so cool. Someone's going for this market?" I didn't know anyone who's been going for that. It's such a needed thing, being in the military myself. How did you even get into that? JEN: Absolutely. I grew up very patriotic. I didn't realize until this year that the veterans were my ideal client. How it happened was, I was always trying to help veterans that were, military guys and gals that needed help with the internet marketing and getting themselves to the next level. Most recently, I was volunteering at a local homeless veteran shelter where some guys and gals were in transition. I said ... Well, a little back story. Three years ago I was on a motorcycle, my first ride, and I was life-flighted off the highway. STEVE: Oh, my gosh. Three years ago? JEN: Three years ago. Twenty-five, 30 minutes into my first ride with a friend on Highway 95. We were set at 70 miles per hour. Road debris came out of everywhere. An 18-wheeler had blown his tire, and we couldn't avoid one of the pieces. It flattened the back tire. Needless to say, I took a nice, pricey helicopter ride to the trauma center, so I actually lost my business. I was down for a lot of time. Financially, physically, emotionally, I had to go through that trauma. I had a lot of time to think through in recovery, and I made a few decisions about my business when I got back to it, which I really just got back to it full-time this past January. I decided that I was going to partner with the right people and never sit on my ideas and make sure that I was launching all the things that I had written down in a book and that were collecting dust. One of the other pieces was that I was going to give back. Even though I was sort of starting over, I knew what I was doing. I had 15 years in the business. I was relaunching, but I still wanted volunteering and giving back to be part of that. I was literally driving to a veteran center in Jacksonville, Florida and just camping out in the chow hall every Thursday and saying, "Whatever you have, just bring it to me. Just bring me your website needs. Bring me your resume needs. You got a new computer and you need to know how to run it? Just bring it to me." Even some of the staff there who weren't veterans would say, "Hey, I'm going for this other job interview," and so I just made myself available every Thursday. It didn't feel like work. Then fast forward a couple months. A friend of mine that's pretty well-known in the veteran space, he's on the History Channel and got quite a following on social media, said, "I've got four veterans that need, like, yesterday." Just working through those clients, it just didn't feel like work. It just felt so easy, because they're so loyal. They're so grateful. Usually what they're inventing, we're writing about, is something I believe in, so I re-branded my business to be all about serving veterans. STEVE: That's incredible. I love that. I've noticed that a lot of the people that I interview, they never ask permission to go do something like that. You just showed up. You just sit down and every Thursday ... How long did you do that before you went to that re-brand? JEN: I only did that for a couple months, because I actually ended up moving out of the area and haven't found a new local shelter to go help with. Let me see. I believe I started ... January, February, March. Probably about two and a half months into that I re-branded. I was also talking with some coaches. Actually, one of the coaches I was speaking with, a female coach, she was a veteran ... or she is a veteran. She said, "Jen, I got my start helping my fellow Army soldiers, starting their businesses when they got out." I said, "This is my ideal client, the more I think about it." I said, "Is it that easy?" She said, "Yeah." Literally, within 24 hours ... I couldn't even wait to re-brand everything. I went to the team and to the social media images, and I started changing it all up. The first batch was a little bit rough and amateur. I just wanted to get camouflage in there. STEVE: Yeah. Yeah. JEN: That's probably one of the ones you saw or maybe one of the newer ones. Yeah, it was pretty quick. STEVE: Yeah. That's incredible. It's interesting that that's the way it worked out. I remember when I went through basic ... I'm obviously business-minded. I really enjoy it. It's my obsession a little bit. I was going through basic training, and it's hard at certain points. One of the things that kept me going mentally and emotionally was talking about business ideas with all these other guys. I ended up having it, and all these guys that would sit around, and we would just talk about some different strategies. To this day, I still talk to some of them, and they're trying to do business stuff. It's definitely clearly an awesome market. A lot of them are go-getters. Anyways, that's super cool. That's fantastic. JEN: Yep. STEVE: One of the things I've noticed too, though, is that immediately ... You were doing the same thing with me. I was blown away with that, "Hey, do you need help with this? Do you have VAs for this? I have teams for this." You are an absolute master with VAs. How did you get that way? JEN: Thank you for saying that. I love helping people. They ask me, what's my agenda sometimes, very few, but I say, "I just like getting a break from the paying clients, who are so demanding." It's like a break to just pull away and just go help people for free with no expectations, so thank you for that. I have been an entrepreneur my whole life. My father was an entrepreneur, made some money in the door and window business. Very early on ... Well, not too early. I guess my late 20's, because I went and got an architectural degree, a drafting degree, from 26 to 28, but as soon as I came out of that, I worked for someone else for six months, and that was it. I had worked for people previously, from 16 to 28, but I knew at that moment I did not want to work for somebody else, and I couldn't work for somebody else. It just felt like my soul was in jail. STEVE: Yeah. I like that. JEN: I left the corporate world, and I was working for an engineering company, and I co-advertised. I didn't even think you could do this, but I rented an exhibitor space at the kitchen and bath show in Orlando, Florida, way back when, and shared it with one of my competitors. I was turning away 95% of my lead. I was so lucky, because what I was providing was CAD drawings and artist renderings to interior designers and kitchen designers. They didn't have anybody that was serving them. Usually people that were drafts people were going to work for architects and engineers, and so the designer industry was left hanging. I filled that void. I was turning away so much business, I knew back then that I had to learn how to scale my business and learn how to use the software that was out there that was going to help me scale my business by leveraging the tools and the people. Very early on I started to outsource to other drafters and just caught the bug of outsourcing and marking up the work and being the middle man really. I was outsourcing right away. I ran with the CAD services for about four or five years. After teaching myself everything on the internet, everything that I could at that time ... The internet was much smaller then. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: It was easier to master. I re-branded into Internet Girl Friday, and I've been doing that ever since. Again, I did lose my business for about two and a half years, but I've been back at it now, and I have virtual assistants and developers. It's great, because in my mind that's the only way to scale your business, is to have a team to support you. That's what we're doing. STEVE: Yeah, and you clearly have that. It's so fascinating, though. I wish I could pull up the text real quick that you sent me. It was a long list of stuff that you were asking me if I needed help with. I was like, "Man, she's got the hook-ups." JEN: Yeah, I would say, if it touches the web, we can do it and mean it. People come to me and say, "Well ..." I have friends that, you know how the friends and family never know what you're doing with the internet, and they don't get it. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: I have a friend that called me. I said, "Listen, I've got 20 minutes to talk. What's up?" He said, "Sounds like you're too busy and you can't take on my work." I said, "No, I have a team for that. I can do it. We can do it." I'm hiring people all the time. There's no shortage of people out there that want to work, whether they're US-based or they're offshore. There's hundreds of thousands of workers out there that ... You can go to Fiverr. You can go to so many different sites and get people to help you in your business, and I take advantage of that. STEVE: That's amazing. When I was in college, that's really when I started getting the bug for this. Well, that's when I started getting traction, I should say. I always had the bug. I went and I started hiring these different VAs. My buddy and I, we were building this Smartphone insurance business, and we went and we hired out this guy. He was just like, he wasn't very good. We paid him $500 to build this really small thing. It wasn't big at all, and we got it back and it was awful, like, "What the heck?" That's why I started using click funnels, so I could do it on my own. Then another time came up and another time came up. I was like, "Man, I'm really striking out with these VAs." I'm curious how it is that you actually go find good ones, because that's a skill in and of itself that I don't think people realize you need to have. Not all VAs obviously are built the same. What process are you taking up? What are you having them do? How are you vetting the VAs for your vets? JEN: There's a couple different ways. I hate to say this, but I don't like the big outsourcing sites. I think it's really hard to find that needle in the haystack, and you have to spend a lot of time sorting through people that are really just looking at the dollars per hour; right? They're like, "No, I can't make anything less than $8 an hour." They overbid. I just don't like those sites. I never had great luck with them ever. STEVE: That's totally the opposite than what everyone else says, so that's interesting. JEN: I've done it for 15 years. If I had an army of 100 virtual assistants, do you know how much money I'd be making? If it was that easy, I would have just hired a team of people from there, but I've spoken to people for 15 years from those big sites. What I find works for me is I enter a couple of virtual assistant groups on Facebook. Whenever I have a need for somebody, I post the job on my blog post, and I'll send a link out to the virtual assistant groups and say, "Hey, by the way, this week I'm looking to talk to people that have skills in ..." whatever skill I'm looking for that week. That's worked out well, because I only get a handful. I might get 10, 15, 20 applicants. It's totally manageable. I have a forum on the blog post. I'm not going to field emails or phone calls or be scattered. I want them to just dump their info into a form, and then I can go back and look at, and I can say, "All right. I'd love to talk to these three out of 10 on Skype," or somehow. They say, "Hire two and fire one." Try a couple people out just on a small ... I work through baby steps when it comes to hiring a virtual assistant. Let's take one tiny task, not, "Oh, I found you. Here's all my money. Here's all my tasks. Talk to you in a week." That will just go wrong every time. You want to start with, "Can you contact me on Skype," because that's a requirement. That's my office. If they tell me they don't have Skype, they're out. It's that simple. You have to work my way in my company with my tools. I'm flexible, but you have to show up in my time zone. You have to speak my language. We start at the very beginning and make sure that those pieces are there before moving on to, "Okay, here's how you get into my project management system, and here's where you find your first task." I work closely alongside them and say, "Stay with me right here on Skype. Tell me, 'Jennifer, I'm starting Task A right now, and I plan to be done in 15 minutes, and I'll ping you back when I'm done, so you can review it.'" It's really micromanaged in the first week. As you get more comfortable and as they're trained a little bit more, then they can work on their own time. I literally do that every morning for about two hours, Monday through Friday, from, roughly, 9 to 11 every day, which is a lot of time when you think about it. I'm also mentoring virtual assistants, so I'm not paying the ones that I mentor that I identify in the group as being really smart and might have come from 15, 20 years of past corporate experience, so they have skills. They just don't realize how to translate them to the internet. Again, I love helping people, so I say, "Come on in as an apprentice. You can follow along. You can invite your friends to sit in your house and watch. It doesn't matter." I've hired people from that group as well. STEVE: Wow. That's fascinating. If the person is good, they might have friends that are good. Might as well bring the friends along and train them too. JEN: Yeah. I tell them, "Listen, I'm looking to build teams, so if you already know someone ..." I had this conversation just last night with one of Filipino VAs. She's amazing. I said, "I'm about to hire a few more, so if you know anybody ..." She's like, "Well, actually, I do have three assistants, and they work in my house with me. It's my goal to help these single moms that need some more income to get going." I said, "Great. Let's ramp them up." Yeah. STEVE: Awesome. That's fantastic. That's amazing. Eventually, what started happening was I was like, man, I literally have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on VAs for stuff that was not very good work. I was not happy with it. I started going through, not the same process at all. That's genius. I'm going to have to ... That's absolutely incredible. I'm going to have to think more about that and try and figure out how I can do that too, or I'll just ask you, hire you to do it. Do you have a particular freelance or VA site, I guess, that you like more than others, Fiver, Freelancer, Upwork? JEN: I love Fiverr. Actually, this morning before this podcast, I was looking on Fiverr for a virtual assistant but only because in the virtual assistant groups that I'm in on Facebook, I saw someone saying, "I'm not getting any traction as a VA on Fiverr. What am I doing wrong?" I clicked on the link which took me to their Fiverr account, and I said, "I'm willing to try you out. Contact me on Skype." Again, that's my first requirement. I use Fiverr for other services. If my dev team is too busy with some bigger projects, and I need to knock out some quick keyword research or a quick image, I can go to Fiverr and I can find it. It's just like any other service where you can see the ratings, but for some reason they have, they've made their user interface so easy to navigate and quickly see, "Oh, wow, they've had 200 projects. They're five stars on all the reviews for all those projects. I'm pretty sure they're returning good work, and it's dollars." Who can't lose $5; right? We spend that on a coffee sometimes. It's different from going to the big sites like Upwork and saying, you have to put your whole job description. You have to say, this is 30 hours a month or 30 hours a week, whether it's permanent. They make you jump through so many hoops before you even find someone. Then you might get a thousand applicants, and you have to sort through all that. It's too much work, where you can go to Fiverr and just browse really quickly and click on someone. You don't even have to click on someone and contact them, but you can just put your mouse over their little portfolio image, and it shows you how many jobs, how many stars. Very quickly you can jump into having an assistant or a vendor. I know there's a lot of controversy with using offshore vendors versus keeping it in the USA, and I do keep most of my work, 99% of my work, in the USA. Even my Indian development team is in the USA, strangely. When you're restarting, which is the mode I'm in now after the accident, you need that payroll break; right? You want to have assistants so you can scale your business, but you can't go out and afford the $25-an-hour United States VA, so it does help to go offshore. I do like the Filipino virtual assistants. They are super-smart, super-talented. Their English is perfect. They are very friendly and very accommodating. There's no language barrier like I've experienced with other countries. They're extremely affordable. Here's a little trick that I've done. I've gone to Wikipedia and typed up, "Countries with the lowest hourly rate," and it's mind-blowing and scary that there's some countries or areas of their countries where 50-cents-per-hour is the minimum wage. STEVE: Oh, man. JEN: That's not saying you can just go there and find a virtual assistant. Virtual assistants have to be a booming industry in a certain country for it to be valuable to you, but the Philippines are great. STEVE: That's incredible. There's a workaround that I have found that helps. I did a whole podcast on this actually earlier, because it's a frustrating thing to go through. The biggest things I've learned from Russell, you got to have people. The biggest things I've learned from my own things, you've got to have people. Otherwise, you as the entrepreneur get bogged down. You can't handle all of the tasks. This is definitely valuable information to hear. There was a workaround that I, to using VAs that I was figuring out too. Do you use Freelancer.com much? JEN: I have, but, again, I didn't use it much. STEVE: Yeah. It's a little bit challenging. There was one feature that saved my butt on a lot of different things, and it was the fact that you can post contests. That's actually pretty cool. I needed all these different images made, or I needed a tee-shirt design. I basically said, "Hey, I really want to motivate people, so here's the prize is $100 and everyone submit your work. I'm just going to choose one guy." It was fantastic. I got 80 or 90 submissions, and the whole week during the contest, I could talk back to them and say, "This looks good but change this." "This looks good but change this." I could rate all of their work, which was public to everyone else. All the work, the freelancers started pushing towards a different path as they watched my comments to other people. That's really the only trick I have for VAs. I haven't done anything else that you do with it. It kind of works, but what you do is a lot cooler, actually. JEN: I don't know. The contests sound pretty cool. I remember seeing them on Topcoder years ago when I was looking to build a software, and someone said, "If you don't have unlimited budget to build the software, present it as a contest." I thought that was fascinating, where they have a contest for one part of the software and a contest for another part. Then they have a contest at the end to put all the parts together. I thought that was fascinating. STEVE: That's incredible. Hey, there's a lot of people obviously who are trying to get into this space who want to do what you're doing. I know you alluded to it before, but what would be the first step to getting a good VA? JEN: I would definitely check out the virtual assistant groups in Facebook. It's a close-knit community. People can vouch for other people. There's some names at the top that know a lot of the VAs in the industry, so they actually have requests for proposal boards that you could sign up to and submit your work. Then you know you're getting a qualified VA, or you can find me and I'll point you in the right direction. I would check sites like FreeeUp. That's with three E's, F-R-E-E-E-U-P.com. STEVE: I've never heard of it. Awesome. JEN: It's new. It's getting a face-lift. The site is only about eight months old, I think. They've got some big plans. Nathan Hirsch, who's out of Orlando, Florida, he's doing very well with it. You can get VAs as low as $5 and up to $50 per hour, depending on what skillset you require. Check out the Filipino ... I can't remember the domain names off the top of my head, but there are a lot of Filipino virtual assistant sites out there that you can just Google it up, and it will pull up some of the top ones. They really are a great crowd for your everyday administrative stuff. I'm literally teaching my VAs now how to set up some of the beginning integrations of click funnel. STEVE: That's awesome. JEN: I have a checklist, and they can go through and connect the SMTP and the domain and do some of the basic setup. Then I can take it from there and build a funnel. STEVE: Fantastic. Just because you mentioned it, how are you using it with click funnels? I went through and looked at your site, and it looks fantastic. It's very clean. HowToGoVirtual; right? Dot-net? JEN: That's the academy site that we're launching. The services site, where all of our clients go through is InternetGirlFriday.com, and we're just like any other entrepreneur. We have multiple different sites. What happened was, I needed to get all of this information into other people's hands. I've got 15-plus years on the internet. Of course, you want to package that up and provide it online as a video course or some type of academy environment. I created a class to teach people the four steps of getting your business website launched, because you know how customers get confused about the internet. The internet is so big now, and there's so many steps, and the algorithms. They get approached by so many vendors. "What should I be paying for," and I said, "I've got to find a way to simplify this." Back in 2010, I think it was, I came up with a 12-step plan. Just a way to categorize everything you do on the internet came to 12 categories. That's it. I just wanted to show people, "Okay, Step 1 is your research and your keyword research and your competitive analysis. Step 12, at the end, is analytics." Everything falls somewhere in between, so that they had something that they could follow along. Not that every strategy goes in order, but the first four I call, "The foundation." You've got to do your keyword research if you're going to launch a website, and your competitive analysis, and you have to know what people are looking for, what your target market is looking for. Step 1. Step 2, building your website in a blueprint first. I think that's so important, because you need to get the SEO and the keywords that were revealed in the first step into your website. If you just hand your website over to someone, they might make it beautiful for the humans, but they're neglecting what robots need to see through Google. STEVE: Right. JEN: That's Step 2, build the blueprint. Step 3, build the website. Step 4, connect it to the search engines and some directories. Now you've got your foundation to go offsite and do all your marketing with whatever strategy you're deploying. I package that up into a course. I'm glad that I had the time off that I did, because when I came back to it, there was click funnel, and it was like, "Ah." Finally there; right? The funnel isn't new. The strategy isn't new. It's a little different, because, again, the internet is bigger and more complicated, but a sales funnel is still a sales funnel; right? We didn't reinvent the funnel. We just put the software together in one place, like Russell. All the steps that you used to have to do, you used to have to literally build a landing page, usually in HTML, because you needed it to be a certain way. If you needed a green check-mark versus a red check-mark, it was all piecework. Then you'd have to go to the next step, and you'd have to connect your email responder. Everything was daisy-chained together. It was so overwhelming, that most people didn't launch, because there was so much work. Even me, who has a team, knew how to do it for so many years, I could never launch, because it was overwhelming. STEVE: Yeah. JEN: ClickFunnels comes on the scene and it's all in one place. I don't use the term, "All-in-one" lightly. I don't give credit to many softwares. It's not an all-in-one where you're billing and all your other things are in there, but for the funnel it's all in one. Everything is literally in one place, and it's been so exciting to set up and to get going and to see that now I can literally wake up at 3 am, have an idea, and within two hours, have it going and some ads going, and it's launched. That's the exciting part. My clients are excited about it to. STEVE: That's so cool. That's so awesome. I remember when I first started putting things together for ... It was an artist actually that built the first site/funnel four or five years ago. I remember spending two hours ... No, it was two days, two full days, trying to make WordPress act like a squeeze page. JEN: I know. STEVE: It was the most hellish thing. It was awful. I remember just settling with something. I can't remember what it was. Neither of us liked it. I'm not a coder or programmer. I can read it. I can edit it, but I'm not at all a programmer, at all. I was like, "This is terrible." I almost gave up on the internet a little bit, because it was so hard. Then when click funnels came around, I remember I saw the presentation that Russell gave mine. I probably shouldn't have done this, but I didn't talk to my wife about it. I immediately bought it, and I started using it and building for other people. I was like, "This is the craziest thing." Now I dream in funnel editor. It's the funniest thing. JEN: Same thing, yeah, because back when you were creating your old landing page, which, again, is just one tiny piece of the whole funnel, I often went back and forth to, "Gees, I've got to hire a developer just to create a landing page page template in my WordPress?" Then that never got done. Then you go over to the third-party platforms that are providing fully landing pages. You're like, "I don't want to spend another $50 a month just to do this one piece, because by the time I'm done with the whole funnel, I'm spending a thousand dollars a month just to get it all connected. Yeah, it's been such a blessing, and I'm so excited. STEVE: I think my record so far with sitting here next to Mr. Russell Brunson, I think the fastest we put a funnel out is 45 minutes or something like that, a full one. It's like there's no way. He and I will still sit back and be like, "I can't believe we have this software," and he's the CEO of it. We'll be like, "Man, look what we just did. Look what we pulled off." He's like, "This little change used to cost me 10 grand. We're going to do it in 30 minutes." JEN: I remember testing my first webinar funnel, and I didn't have it completely set up, but at some point I got my reminder email, and I said, "Oh, look, how cool is that? I'm already getting the emails automatically." I didn't even set up the email, and I clicked on the link inside that said, "Your webinar is starting now." I clicked it 20 minutes late. When I did click it, it went right into the webinar that was playing, at the 20-minute mark. I said, "This is magic." STEVE: Yeah. So cool. I know I said we'd keep it to 30 minutes. You are amazing. I can't believe all the stuff you're pulling off is incredible, manager and builder of teams. I'm looking at all these sites right now. It's absolutely incredible and just crazy impressive. Where should people go if they want to follow you, learn more about you, even obviously use some of your services. JEN: Yeah. If you go to InternetGirlFriday.com, then you can find my social media, which is everywhere. We have Periscope and Instagram and YouTube and all that, and follow me on any of those. We're very active there. InternetGirlFriday.com is the service's site. You can contact me there. You can say, "Hey, I don't need to hire you, but I have a question," and I'll be glad to help. STEVE: Awesome. I appreciate it so much. Thanks. This is spur-of-the-moment, but this has been awesome. JEN: Sure. Thank you. STEVE: All right. Hey, we'll talk to you later. JEN: Okay. Bye-bye.   Thanks for listening to Sales Funnel Radio. Please remember to subscribe and leave feedback. Want to get one of today's best internet sales funnels for free? Go to SalesFunnelBroker.com/FreeFunnels to download your pre-built sales funnel today.