Podcasts about but tiktok

Over the weekend, some TikTok users in the United States claimed the social media platform was censoring content critical of the Trump administration. Users reported that they couldn't upload or view videos related to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, otherwise known as ICE. But TikTok disputes that functionality issues were political, attributing them instead to data center outages. The criticism has come to a head after federal agents shot and killed intensive care nurse Alex Pretti, a US citizen in Minnesota. The Department of Homeland Security says the agents fired in self-defence. Though the facts remain muddy, the controversy has exposed how a divided America is reacting to the shooting. For the latest, we speak to BBC Social Media Investigations Senior Correspondent Marianna Spring. Producers: Xandra Ellin, Samantha Chantarasak, and Viv Jones Executive producer: China Collins Mix: Travis Evans Senior news editor: China CollinsPhoto: Teenagers holding smartphones in front of a TikTok logo. September 11, 2025. Credit:Dado Ruvic/Reuters

Have you been walking wrong all your life? According to TikTok, the answer is probably. If you've scrolled through TikTok or Instagram lately, chances are you've seen videos about the Japanese walking trend. Some posts call it a weight-loss miracle. Others say it's the secret to why people in Japan live longer, healthier lives. What's real and what's really just hype? The Japanese walking trend is a combo of basic habits a lot of Japanese people share. It involves mindfulness, breathing patters and purposeful movement. People in Japan have been living that way for hundreds of years. But TikTok has now discovered what a lot of people are calling the ultimate health hack. Bottom line, giving the trend a try isn't going to hurt you. In fact, it will probably make you feel more calm, energized and happy. The best part? You can try it anywhere. You don't need a gym or fancy equipment. You can even try it while pacing your living room! On this Dying to Ask: What the Japanese walking tend is and isn't A 5 step plan to try it out And why it makes a lot of sense that Japan leads the way in living long and happy

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim and Kate Lindsay break down the drama surrounding an influencer's new book that has kicked off a whole controversy before it's even been released. Christina Najjar, better known as Tinx, has made a successful career as a TikTok influencer who doles out dating advice to her more than 1.5 million followers. Her new book is a summer beach read following an influencer who escapes to the Hamptons after getting canceled. But TikTok creators have been suspicious leading up to the book's release because Tinx, up to this point, has identified as a straight woman, and her novel revolves around a queer romance. Additionally, some creators believe Tinx might've used a ghostwriter, who is a queer writer herself. Therefore, who gets to tell which stories in traditional publishing? And what is the specific betrayal some people feel when influencers use ghostwriters? This podcast is produced by Vic Whitley-Berry, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim, and Kate Lindsay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Live-Podcast im Kaufleuten in Zürich am 16. Dezember: Zum letzten Mal werden die Hosts in dieser Konstellation auf der Bühne sein – und das in festlichem Rahmen kurz vor Weihnachten. Tickets können hier (https://kaufleuten.ch/event/tages-anzeigerin-podcast-1/) gekauft werden.In der Schweiz sterben jährlich im Schnitt 25 Personen infolge häuslicher Gewalt, die Mehrheit der Getöteten sind Frauen. Zur Prävention gegen geschlechterspezifische Gewalt finden deshalb jährlich auf der ganzen Welt die Aktionstage «16 Tage gegen Gewalt an Frauen» statt.Paralell zu den aktuell stattfindenden Präventionskampagne trendet auf sozialen Plattformen wie TikTok der Hashtag #WomenInMaleFields. Darin thematisieren Frauen stereotype und teils übergriffige Verhaltensweisen, die normalerweise mit Männern assoziiert werden. Die Reaktionen: Viele Frauen erkennen manche Situationen aus ihrem eigenen Leben und solidarisieren sich. Einige Männer hingegen lancierten den Hashtag #MenInFemaleFields und drehen den Trend um.Während online gegeneinander gearbeitet wird, sieht man im Rahmen der Aktionstage «16 Tage gegen Gewalt an Frauen» zum ersten Mal zahlreiche Aktionen von Männern, die sich solidarisieren und sich selbst als Teil der Lösung sehen.In einer neuen Folge des Podcasts «Tages-Anzeigerin» diskutieren die Hosts Annik Hosmann und Kerstin Hasse über den Einfluss von TikTok-Trends wie #WomenInMaleFields und Hintergründe der Aktionstage. Zudem kommt Rebecca Schaad, Sozialarbeiterin und Opferberaterin beim Frauen-Nottelefon zu Wort und spricht unter anderem über die Bedeutung von Männer als Verbündete im Kampf gegen Gewalt an Frauen und Mädchen.Hosts: Annik Hosmann & Kerstin HasseProduzentin: Sara SpreiterAngebote und Hilfe für Betroffene von Gewalt oder Angehörige:Opferhilfe Schweiz: https://www.opferhilfe-schweiz.ch/de/Dachorganisation Frauenhäuser: https://www.frauenhaeuser.ch/deFrauenberatung sexuelle Gewalt: https://www.frauenberatung.ch/Stiftung gegen Gewalt an Frauen und Kindern: https://stiftung-gegen-gewalt.ch/wsp/de/fachstellen/lantanabern/Beratungshilfe Frauen-Nottelefon: https://www.frauennottelefon.ch/Zuflucht für Männer bietet der Verein ZwüschehaltWas wird wann diskutiert:02:00 Schlagzeilen04:20 Hauptthema Gewalt an Frauen und der Trend #WomenInMaleFields27:10 TippsLinks:Tickets für Live Tages-Anzeigerin am 16. Dezember im Kaufleuten16 Tage gegen Gewalt an Frauen: https://www.16tage.ch/Podcast-Folge mit Rebecca Schad,  Nina Schifferli und Gosalya lyadurai: Wege aus der Gewalt: drei Opferberaterinnen berichtenZahlen des BFS zu häuslicher GewaltStaatsanwältin Corinne Kauf im Interview mit Alexandra Aregger im Tages-Anzeiger: «Fast alle Opfer haben das Gefühl, sie seien selber schuld an dem, was ihnen widerfahren ist»In der British Vogue: Sorry, But TikTok's #WomenInMaleFields Trend Needs To EndDer Spiegel: Sexistische Gewalt zu beenden, ist MänneraufgabePodcast Fashion Neurosis von Bella FreudSong Fliegen von Nina Chuba Die Playlist zum Podcast «Tages-Anzeigerin» auf SpotifyHabt ihr Lob, Kritik oder Gedanken zum Thema? Schreibt uns an podcasts@tamedia.ch

TikTok has had quite the 2024, especially in music. The year started with a very public dispute with UMG. But TikTok also saw the rise of SoundOn, the end of TikTok Music, lingering threats of a US ban, the force of TikTok Shop, and more.Join me and MIDiA's Tati Cirisano as we break it all down.Sponsors:HubSpot: download your free AI playbook here. Chartmetric: check out our Stat of the Week!

From next week, the kids will be back. But TikTok and messaging in the classroom won't be. The government's cellphone ban kicks in from term two.

TikTok might soon be banned or sold to new ownership in the U.S. with the Senate expected to approve legislation as part of a $95 billion foreign aid package for Ukraine, Israel and other allies. But TikTok doesn't plan to go down without a fight and says this is an unconstitutional violation of free speech. Lisa Desjardins discussed more with David McCabe of the New York Times. PBS NewsHour is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

TikTok might soon be banned or sold to new ownership in the U.S. with the Senate expected to approve legislation as part of a $95 billion foreign aid package for Ukraine, Israel and other allies. But TikTok doesn't plan to go down without a fight and says this is an unconstitutional violation of free speech. Lisa Desjardins discussed more with David McCabe of the New York Times. PBS NewsHour is supported by - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/about/funders

With one billion active users across more than 150 countries, TikTok is by many measures the world's most successful video app. Nearly one in three Americans have an account. It is the most downloaded app since 2021. And like virtually all of social media, user privacy concerns abound. But TikTok adds an extra layer. Owned by Chinese company ByteDance, there are worries that U.S. data could be transmitted to China's government, despite assurances from the company that it is not. Those concerns prompted President Joe Biden to ban Tiktok from government phones. More than half of U.S. states have similar controls in place. But with increased tensions between Beijing and Washington, and mounting questions of Chinese surveillance, some are calling for the U.S. to go further and ban the technology outright. Those supporting such a move often to point to a ban on another Chinese tech giant, Huawei, as an effective means of limiting China's influence and potentially extractive technological efforts. Those who argue against it say a ban would essentially undermine what has become an important tool in the video marketplace, and that such efforts are not only political motivated, but are also easily bypassed. In that context, we debate the following: Should the U.S. Ban TikTok?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Congressional debate over the social media app TikTok has brought the subject of China's influence operations into sharp focus for many Americans who might have known China was a geopolitical adversary but may not have known just how close they are to home, that they may have been quite literally in their child's pocket as they sent them out the door.But TikTok is really just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what China has been up to stateside, much of it in conjunction with lobbying and currying influence with American legislators, many of them at the state and local level. Fortunately, a new organization called State Armor was formed in January to counter these influence operations and give states quote “the tools they need to thwart Chinese Communist Party influence operations and comprehensively protect residents and state assets.” State Armor founder Michael Lucci joins us today to discuss his organization and their goal of using federalism to protect national security.Links: State ArmorTikTok Is The CCPTo Combat China's Infiltration Of The US We Must Start With The StatesSelect Committee Unveils CCP Influence Memo, "United Front 101"Follow us on our Socials:Twitter: @capitalresearchInstagram: @capitalresearchcenterFacebook: www.facebook.com/capitalresearchcenterYouTube: @capitalresearchcenter

This week, MPR News host Brian Bakst sits down with DFL Rep. Zack Stephenson and DFL Sen. Erin Maye Quade to talk about a sports betting bill that's garnered a lot of buzz at the Capitol. The bill would establish regulations for on-site and mobile betting venues and who can operate them. Minnesota is in the minority of states where sports betting isn't a sanctioned business enterprise. Stephenson is a leading voice in the push to change that, but Maye Quade is among those with concerns about the bill.  Then, a conversation with Rep. Dean Phillips and Rep. Ilhan Omar about a bill that would ban TikTok in the U.S. that passed in the House this week. While six of the eight House members in Minnesota voted to ban the app if it doesn't change ownership, Phillips and Omar voted against it. The app is used daily by millions of Americans. But TikTok has a Chinese parent company, which has fueled concerns about user data privacy and possible foreign influence over the type of content that winds up in front of people. Omar and Phillips, who were among only 65 to oppose the bill, shared their reasons why.Guests:  Rep. Zack Stephenson, DFL-Coon Rapids   Sen. Erin Maye Quade, DFL-Apple Valley U.S. Rep. Dean Phillips (D) U.S. Rep. Ilhan Omar (D)  Briana Bierschbach, politics and government reporter for the Star Tribune Subscribe to the Politics Friday podcast on: Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or RSS.Use the audio player above to listen to the full conversation.

Join us in this episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the extraordinary journey of Callie Goodwin, the mastermind behind a thriving greeting card company born out of the challenges of the pandemic. From a humble start during quarantine to becoming a household name on TikTok, Callie shares her inspirational story of turning isolation into innovation. With her background in education and social work, Callie's path to entrepreneurship was unexpected but undeniably rewarding. Tune in to discover how she navigated obstacles like funding shortages and leveraged the power of social media to skyrocket her business. From viral TikTok campaigns to unexpected partnerships, Callie's journey is a testament to the resilience and creativity of small business owners everywhere. Join us as we explore the highs, the lows, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration, practical tips, and a glimpse into the limitless possibilities of entrepreneurship in the digital age. Guest: Callie Goodwin. Founder Sparks of Joy   Host: Mary Sturgill Producer: Isabella Martinez    Transcript: MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgil. This podcast is brought to you in partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And today we have a very special guest…you may know her from Tik Tok and some Tik Tok ads. It's Callie Goodwin, who is the founder of the greeting card company, Sparks of Joy. Callie, welcome to our show. CALLIE: Hi! Thank you so much for having me.  MARY: Callie, I want to start with… Do you remember the first time that we met in person? Because we've known each other for a while though. CALLIE: It's been quite a while. I was helping film in Columbia. I don't know what year it was. But it's been quite a while. MARY: It's been at least seven years probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was still in news. I was still a news anchor. And Callie had this drone and I was you know me, I'm a gadget girl. And so I went up to her and I was like, oh, show me what you're doing. Like we were just talking off air that we were flying drones and we didn't really know any of the rules back then. So we just flew them all over the place. CALLIE: I look back now and I'm like, Ooh, yeah, we were definitely breaking some rules then. But honestly before… it was still the wild wild west of drones.  MARY: You were on the cutting edge then and now you're on the cutting edge again. That's your life.  CALLIE: I like to live on the edge. MARY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about Sparks of Joy for people who might not have seen your TikTok ad because your TikTok ad… I say TikTok ad guys but it is all over TV right now. CALLIE: Yeah, so Sparks of Joy started as a pre stamped greeting card company in the middle of the pandemic. I bought a house the summer 2020, moved in, was exposed to COVID had to quarantine and during that two weeks was going stir crazy. Neighbor dropped off a handwritten card and some brownies. And that handwritten card like really kind of sparked this idea of like, I want to send out cards out with my new address like I finally have an address on my own. But I realized that I didn't know what boxes my cards were in. And I didn't have any stamps. And so I used that two week quarantine period to start a business. I design all my own cards. And then we pre stamp the cards so that our customers don't have to or don't have to try to track down stamps at the post office so it has grown I started my TikTok right as I started my business and now it's grown into this massive account and this like really cool opportunity to partner with TikTok on these things. And I never would have dreamed that this loneliness of my brand new house would have turned into this three years later. MARY: Right and so the…let's back up a little bit and talk about your education because everything that you've done in your education so far is geared toward education. For kids right? CALLIE: So I thought I wanted to be a preschool teacher growing up. I worked in preschool for seven years. So I got my Associates in early childhood. And then I transferred to Columbia College and got my Bachelor's in social work, essentially social work, and decided that's not what I wanted to do. I began working at Columbia College doing social media and got my master's in higher ed administration. And now here I am, I work for a social media app for high schoolers going into college. So still kind of like higher ed adjacent, but also run a greeting card company. MARY: Right. So you're doing social media and you're a master at social media by the way. You're doing social media for them and you're running this company that has just literally blown up. How did it come to be that Tik Tok contacted you and said we want you to be in this for us. CALLIE: So I retold the story recently or was talking with the people that this all started with. It started in the spring of 2022. So we actually got a very kind of vague sketch email from TikTok that was like, Hey, we're working on a new upcoming project. If you think you might be interested in being part of this vague project that we can't tell you information about, like fill out this Google form. And I clicked it and like it really was just a basic Google form asking about my business and I'm like, well, nothing I'm sharing here is like proprietary information that they can't like find on my website. So I filled it out. And three months later, they got the green light from legal to start this. It was called TikTok Impact and showing the impact of TikTok on small businesses. So they got the green light to start it and so it started as a website with about I think 10 to 20 of us, representing 10 states. And that rolled into the first campaign with TikTok, which was South Carolina based…a couple of billboards and newspaper ads and stuff that ran in October of 2022. And then thought that was it… thought the campaign was done. And then I was contacted in July of 2023 by a production company, they're like, Hey, we think you're a good fit for a project again, super vague. We can't tell you the client. Like are you interested? And I'm like, sure we've done this before and it's been great. So sure, let's try it again. Turns out the client was TikTok again. But it was a much bigger scale. So it involved filming this commercial, they came to my house. I think there was like 13 or 14 different production team members that came out and we filmed all day long. And then this is part of a national campaign so it's rolled out. I think the commercial is rolled out to South Carolina at this moment, but will continue to roll out nationwide. And then it also included billboards in places like… Vegas is covered. I think there's like 13 or 14 in Vegas. Times Square, the New York subway system… all around South Carolina and it's been really cool to watch that grow. MARY: Yeah I love on your Instagram when you put your…. you took a picture of yourself in front of your billboard in Times Square. CALLIE: Yeah, we went up for my birthday in December and I was like, told my parents we have to go to Times Square to see this. It's just surreal to see yourself in public on these advertisements. So I just flew to Washington DC. And I saw myself in the airport like on the screens and I was like, Oh wait, that's me like, and nobody else around me like notices in this moment that I'm standing here like in all of this ad and everyone else is just going about their busy day, but I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm on this giant screen like that's crazy.  MARY: Yeah,I know that feeling. The first time I saw we had a billboard for one of my stations that I worked at when I was broadcasting. And the first time I saw one of our billboards I had to like stop. I've literally pulled up on the side of the highway. Like oh my god, that's huge. CALLIE: The first night that somebody texted me that the billboards were live in Columbia, because I didn't know that that was part of this campaign. So somebody's like, I just saw a billboard of you and I'm like, What are you talking about? They're like, Oh, yeah, it's over onForest drive and it actually was not on Forest drive. It was somewhere completely different. They got the location wrong. So I'm driving around Columbia, like just looking for myself. And yeah, it's probably crazy, but it's a lot of fun. MARY: I love that. But I do want to point out to our listeners that this is a prime example… I do a workshop sometimes for women entrepreneurs who… how to get your story told. Right? And so let me ask this question… was anything… did you have to pay for any of this?  CALLIE: Not a penny.  MARY: Exactly. So saying yes to things will get you free advertisement. Right? Now, of course, there are a lot of scams out there. So do be careful about that kind of stuff and kind of use the techniques that Callie used to say, Okay, this is just business stuff that I'm giving them, right?  CALLIE: Absolutely.  MARY: And then you can always do your background checks, make, make the phone calls, send the emails, you know, do whatever you need to do to check the background of things like this. But let's talk about how this has blown up your business. CALLIE: Yes, so, through the first campaign, we ended up getting verified on Tik Tok and being able to reach a large amount of people and through that campaign, rolled into the opportunity to… so that started with the vague sketchy email to begin with, which then turned into the first South Carolina campaign, which then rolled into the opportunity to speak at South by Southwest last March on a panel with TikTok which led to go into DC with TikTok, which led to like this campaign, and so saying yes, at all these points, continues to just open doors. But yes, I think I missed the rest of your question there. MARY: I think you got it. Saying yes to one thing opened all those other doors. South by Southwest is huge, you know, being able to go to DC all off this one, you know, thing that you said yes to was really the catalyst for all of that, right. So, let's talk about the art just a little bit because you were an art major, right. And how does that play into part of your personality, part of who you are and into the whole thing? CALLIE: Yeah, it's been cool to be able to take some of these designs that you don't see represented in greeting cards every day. And I know again, like I always tell people like you, if I can succeed on Tik Tok, you can succeed on TikTok. I am selling greeting cards in a digital world. Like people don't send mail, people love to receive mail, but don't take the time to send mail. And so the fact that we've sold over 50,000 cards in the last three years is proof that like people want that connection, they want human connection. And I think a big thing is like people like to purchase from me because I show myself on my account a lot. I also share not just business stuff, but I I share a little bit of the personal side. We talk about mental health. We talked about behind the scenes of packing orders and so people connect on a personal level there and feel like they're supporting a person in a business. And that's something they could get behind.  MARY: Yeah, I think you bring up another good point with that because part of marketing yourself on social media and you just gave us a tactic right there. Right. So it's not all about the business. It's not all about buy buy buy this right. It's about sharing and connecting on a personal level. CALLIE: Absolutely. So originally I had gone back and privated all at the beginning of my TikTok because they were so cringy I couldn't even like stand to see them on my account. They were… it was bad. I was just watching the waters…. and I had to go back and unhide them because the reality is like I didn't want to minimize, like how rough the start was, like sure we're at 113,000 followers now. But we weren't there at the beginning. And we started small. We started cringy it took a while to find our stride. And when I did, it really changed when I started getting on camera and being myself and realizing like, I am not going to be equal to the people that have millions of followers like I don't have the pretty perfect setup. This is me in my garage selling greeting cards and so once I found what was unique to me and just like the fact that like this is who I am and embracing that, like that's when we saw growth because I got comfortable with who I was instead of just trying to be everybody else.  MARY: Yeah. Wow. What you just said is so powerful. Right there. I think that being comfortable with who you are and finding the power within yourself can transcend any area of our life. But at the same time holds us back from all areas as well. Right? If we don't have those feelings. Even in my own daily life I catch myself ... .that self talk, you know that we have that Oh, I shouldn't do this because I don't have this or I don't do this right. And, boy, I need to take your advice today. And I know somebody listening does too. Wow.  CALLIE: I often have to remind myself that especially as my account grows larger, I find myself hesitating before I post up I'm like Ooh, is this worth the post? Like is this gonna fit things and I realize I'm like, that's not how we got here. And that's not how we're going to continue to grow if I'm if I stray away from where like what our tried and true like method is so yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfectly filmed. My hair always looks like a disaster. It's always a frizzy mess. Usually whatever t shirt I wear for the day, or I slept in and just showing whatever I'm working on really connects with people, MARY: Yeah whatever part of your life that it is for that moment. Yeah, yeah. You also brought up the fact that you started with… You know, I mean, everybody has to start somewhere. Right? And so with the followers on Tiktok, you started with small followers with a small number of followers and then that grew over time, the more that you became your authentic self and I think so many of us, me included, tend to not be as consistent as perhaps we should be to help really gain those followers and take advantage of what Tik Tok and other social media outlets have to offer for free advertising for us.  CALLIE: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool for me to connect with the people that used to join my live streams like I remember when I hit 1000 followers and I got to finally live stream for TikTok specifically and there was two people that would join my live streams all the time. I think we ever we maxed out at like five people viewing for the first couple months and now whenever I go live, there's sometimes there can be a couple 100 people in there, but sometimes I see those, those original two or three and it's always such a special moment when I see it pop up, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're you're still here. Like you're still like, I don't care about the rest of them like you followed me through either there at the beginning. Like it's really it's really important for me to connect with my followers in general in the comments, but then also to like, remember people and remember that, like I wouldn't be here today without the support of the people along the way. MARY: Yeah, that's an excellent point too. And that connection, you know, when those live streams, you're creating community. CALLIE: Yeah. 100% we have whole like, like conversations in the comments, or I think at one point, I was taking a new medication that had to be taken at night and I'm a nighttime like live streamer. Like that's usually when I'm going live and I had one follower who is now a really good friend of mine we've never met but she would remind me every night and she's like remember to take your meds and I was like thanks because I forgot and they're ADHD meds so like it's seem funnier that like usually it was the thing… the thing you need to take to remember to do the things consistently. And so she was my consistent reminder during live streams and he's like, Did you take your medicine and like, Oh, thank you so much. Let me take one right now. And so yeah, we got through that entire, like, season of that specific medication because she reminded me every night because I wouldn't remember. MARY: I love that. So what inspires you? CALLIE: That's a great question. I am fueled by trying new things, and seeing what can happen. So I also love a good challenge. So recently, back in August or July…I had an opportunity to work with a laser company called… and they sent me a laser and I was to make content with it. And so I wanted to do a 90 day payoff challenge. Because I thought, You know what, that'd be a cool like source of content…have all these projects. I need to pay this laser off anyway, like let's, let's do it in 90 days. And so I made a list of all these projects that I wanted to do and started working my way through it. And on day 15, our Stanley topper file went viral and we sold $30,000 worth in nine days on TikTok shop. And so those videos collectively have over 10 million views. My house is a train wreck for weeks as I had about 14,15 people rotating in and out to help me fulfill these orders. But I'm constantly like inspired by trying new things, seeing what will take off and then watching the power of social media work. We've had multiple cards go viral, we've had multiple products and so it's always fun to kind of chase that like new level of success but also like what is going to connect most with our followers. MARY: Right. Do you sell the cards as singles or in groups? How does that work? CALLIE: So we have cards that are available as singles. We have postcards. We have flat cards that go with an envelope and a stamp. And then we have like little baby like mini cards. And you can buy them individually but you can also bundle them to get them at a cheaper price.  MARY: Okay, excellent. So what has been the most rewarding about this process for you… this experience?  CALLIE: I think the experiences and being able to meet people and connect with people. I think social media allows you to really connect with people that are outside of your circle. And so I have been able to make some really incredible friends through Tiktok through social media in general. I actually went to VidCon out in California last year with four creator friends that I had, or three creator friends that I'd never met in person. We all rented Airbnb and went out together and had an absolute blast. But we've just built all these relationships, friendships, partnerships with different people. And that is… it's just so fulfilling. MARY: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think you know for all of its faults, social media does that really well.  CALLIE: Yes.  MARY: Is there any obstacles that you had to overcome that you other than, you know, the self talk which we've talked about, you know, that you've had to overcome in the process? CALLIE: I think our biggest challenge is always like money, and funding. I started this with 20 bucks in the bank account and have used the profits from whatever I sell to reinvest back into my business and so every time we go viral or we have these like big influx, it's like okay, now how do we, how do we upgrade our stuff? Instead of outsourcing, we now print all of our stuff in house. We've purchased the equipment, you know, we've purchased the lasers, we've purchased the shelving like never, never knew shelving was so expensive. But to house all of the cards that we offer, we have about 150 designs. And to also to hire an assistant that helps with fulfilling card orders. That was important but yeah, I think funding especially when not going like traditional, like loan routes, because that wasn't something I wanted to do. It's also sometimes hard to find small business loans when you're brand new, but not like when I still consider myself like a pretty like a baby business compared to like a retail location or something like that. Everything operates out of my dining room and so sometimes that funding is usually like one of the hardest parts.  MARY: Yeah, that's…it is hard, especially for a company that's starting up because for banks to lend you money of course they want to see three years of growth right? CALLIE: Yeah.  MARY: And you're like, Well, how do I get the growth but don't have the money? CALLIE: Exactly, exactly.  MARY: So you have to be creative in the ways that you find. So then when you have this big orders like that $30,000 order right… or 30,000 card order, then you just hire part time people to come in and help you get them out quickly. CALLIE: Yes, my dad was here everyday helping. My assistant was here and then I literally put the call out on Facebook. I was like who has extra time during the day… night. We would have people that would come in at 7:30 in the morning. A friend of mine… I gave her my house code and was like here's the key to the door. She would come in and start working. I would sleep in a little bit. But I would also work until 2,3,4 in the morning with the late night crew and so we made it through like you find your community, find your local people that will jump into help but yeah, August was chaotic. MARY: And that but you know what, that's a great problem to have. CALLIE: Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah. MARY: So looking forward, what are some of the goals that you have for the card company? I mean, do you I mean, I guess you want to stay in your garage forever. CALLIE: Yeah, I don't know.  MARY: Although that might be kind of nice.  CALLIE: But yeah, it's well, it's nice, not having like an overhead of a shop or warehouse or anything. Our garage is converted so it's like a two car garage size but it's a nice like workspace. For me I think I've specifically this past year I've been operating essentially two businesses under one name. So we have the greeting card side and then we have the laser engrave side and low backs are how the laser engraving came in. It's because no one gets rich off of $2 greeting cards. Takes a lot of greeting cards to build up by capital. And so we introduced laser engraving personalized items to help get our cost per order up. But they still kind of feel like two separate verticals. So the goal this year is to invest in a UV printer, which will allow me to take the full color designs of my cards and print them onto cups, wood, stuff that I can use in my laser engraver and be able to finally merge those two businesses and have them like mesh a little bit more cohesively. So that's a large investment of a pretty expensive piece of equipment. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm excited to figure out how we obtain that but that is the ultimate goal for 2024. MARY: How do you proceed TikTok helping you in the coming year? CALLIE: Well, this specific campaign is not a short, the ads may stop running soon, like the print and digital ones. But this is… it's going to be a long term advertisement for them and for me, and so I know that's going to help with business. I already get orders all the time. That's like hey, we saw we saw your ad like we're now ordering. But TikTok the platform itself is… 98% of my customers find me through TikTok so that's where we put all of our time and effort. We have Instagram, Facebook, we don't put as much stock time investment into those platforms because when you find something that works like I'm investing my time there on TikTok so continuing to create content that engages people that I think going back and doing a lot more content about the how… how we get to places the start of a card, how we design it, how it's printed, cutted, showing the behind the scenes of that is something like my followers have asked to see more of this year. They also asked to see more of the laser and so we're gonna be featuring more of that This year as well.  MARY: Yeah, that's fun to see. That's fun to watch. CALLIE: I realized like as much as I see it working and it may like lose its sparkle a little bit when you're running it consistently. My followers don't get to see the chaos of watching it run and so I've got to remember that's not…most people don't have multiple lasers in their house. So I need to share that more with people. It's very common for me, but it's not common for 99% of the population. MARY: Right, right. You know, I want to circle back around to DC because we I know there were these huge hearings about TikTok and potentially regulation or, or even not allowing Tiktok to operate in the United States. And I know that if that were to happen, it would hurt small business owners and I think you would be one of those people. CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back from DC. I was up there talking about credit card swipe fees. Additionally talking about the impact of Tiktok on my business and kind of my stance on things is a lot of the questions right now are about internet security, data privacy, and we're having these conversations. Tik Tok gets called out a lot because the parent company has owners that are also Chinese based. And so that causes a lot of fear. But the reality is that data security and privacy is a much bigger topic that is not limited to TikTok. We have those issues with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever, all of them have the same issues. And so when I'm talking with our representatives, talking about let's have the broader conversation, let's not single out one because the reality is if we can pass legislation that protects users and people. It's just eliminating one, it's not going to fix the problem. We need to do more to protect everybody. And so I'm hoping that some of those conversations we'll realize that that's the bigger issue. But yeah, it's a risk, putting kind of like a lot of my all my eggs in that one basket but right now, like it is the most accessible platform for small businesses the way that the algorithm works, the way that the platform shows stuff that you're interested in. And so it's easier for small businesses to have a fighting chance of being seen versus Instagram and Facebook that really value the amount of followers you have over the interest of what you have. So it'll be interesting to see. But I continue to use our voice to talk to our representatives because I met with our representatives office this week, and Lindsey Graham and talked to their office and showed my stats and they're like we've never heard a small business story from Tik Tok. And I'm a constituent and so going and showing the staff with like, 98% of my customers find me here like here's… our audience is actually older, like it isn't young kids and so kind of changing the narrative by giving the other side of the truth there. MARY: And thank you for doing that. And I think all small businesses should thank you for doing that. Because, you know, the good thing about social media, no matter what platform it is, is it's free advertising for you. Every time you're on there, right? You are the face of your company. You are the brand so to speak, right? And that's some advertising that you don't have to pay for. Absolutely, it's free. And if you're not using social media, then you should start using social media. CALLIE: Yeah, we don't pay. I think I ran one ad last year. And it was a very targeted ad because it was for a very targeted product for our cutting boards, like it was a targeted age group for that specific product. But yeah, we've done so much. I mean, I think we did probably close to $50,000 in sales last year without a single like dollar of advertisement. MARY: That's great for the bottom line.  CALLIE: Yeah. MARY: Let's give some advice to people because we just talked a little bit about the age, you know, and that's a misnomer that ultimately kids on Tik Tok, right, because it's not. It's only old people on Facebook because it's not, right. And so let's talk about if you can give some advice to some of our listeners about maybe some tips and tricks of the trade so to speak of getting yourself noticed. CALLIE: Um, specific per platform or just in general? MARY: In general, or if you want to go specific, specific, that's fine. CALLIE: I think often that we target certain platforms for certain ages. And that's not necessarily true. Facebook's become older generation. Snapchat is just like the high schoolers TikTok is like Gen X, millennials, whatever. But that's not true. Some of my favorite Tik Tokers are actually like quite old. We have… like I follow a Grandma, that's one of my favorite people on the app. I think there is a spot for everybody on all platforms. All say that the demographics from my Tik Tok account and actually have this beside me. So I'm not just pulling out numbers. 71% of my followers are between 25 and 54 and 87% are women. 96 or 96% of them are in the US. So I do have international followers. I've shipped a lot of international orders from that percentage that is internationally, but I think that not specifically targeting a certain age… I think making your stuff broader is the best way to appeal to people on all platforms. My dad loves TikTok. Does he create content on there? Absolutely not. But he does scroll it nightly for hours because he sends me them all the time. So it's, it's really cool for him or for me to see certain brands like really embrace the fact that like all ages are on TikTok and be able to target across all generations with their content and like it's resulted in…he has purchased us specifically because he saw it on TikTok.  MARY: Yeah. I do that all the time. CALLIE: We joke about like Facebook ads are like super targeted because of your like interests or whatever. You think and it appears but there are still younger people on Facebook. They may not be posting but they see stuff. Same with Instagram, I think a lot of people watch but don't necessarily post and so just because you may not be seeing their content on there doesn't mean they're not there.  MARY: That's a great, great point. Because there are 1000s, millions of people probably on Tik Tok that just kind of scroll and watch and whatever, the videos and they're seeing those ads, right? I don't I mean, you know, as I said, I'm a gadget girl, which is how we met each other. And because I went up to Callie and I was like, hey, show me what you're doing here man. And I am forever ordering gadgets off TikTok shop.  CALLIE: The amount of stuff that I need to do an entire video of stuff that I've ordered because I saw it on TikTok and there is a hashtag TikTok made me buy it but I have peach mango toothpaste because I found it on TikTok. Like I hate the taste of normal mint toothpaste. And I got served an ad for flavored toothpaste and was like done… immediately purchased. And that was like such like such a good decision that like makes an impact on my daily life. But like a random thing. MARY: I will tell you I have not gotten anything that's cheap or bad or anything from any of my Tik Tok purchases.  CALLIE: Yeah, most of them are pretty solid. I will say as a TikTok shop seller, the regulations that they have…they're pretty strict. And so we're constantly fighting the product authorization stuff on like getting our stuff posted because sometimes it says like I think this is… like your price is too low, we think it's a scam and I was like it's a mini greeting card like I can't charge more than $1.50 for this like sometimes it'll flag us like we think this is a scam it's because you're offering it for $1. So…but yeah, I think the last probably eight months has been really heavy on TikTok shop as they released that and try to grow it. I think that now that Black Friday and Christmas and stuff are over I think it'll chill out a little bit. But it is interesting to watch how the different platforms are changing their algorithms and changing what they're promoting. I recently got a message from Tiktok saying that they're wanting you to post some vertical or some horizontal videos and longer videos and you've got YouTube over there promoting shorts and then you've got Instagram that wants to be everybody… do all the things. So it's important to pay attention to all of the platforms and see what they're favoring. And if you can ride the wave as soon as they announce something…I will say that's like one of the things we found the most successful is when a when a platform releases a new trend or not necessarily like a trendy type of thing, but like TikTok specifically said recently that they're favoring longer videos and they're favoring the, the horizontal so they're fighting YouTube essentially. I have friends that are posting that and going viral for those longer videos and it's counterintuitive what we think Tik Tok should be but if TikTok is saying, Hey, we're favoring this. It's pretty dumb to not ride that wave. Even if we don't agree with it because like, I don't have it like I don't TikTok to be YouTube… I want the short fun videos but like as a creator, as a marketer, you got to sometimes you got to suck it up. MARY: Right. Callie, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation. CALLIE: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about this kind of stuff. MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go though, tell our listeners and we are on YouTube too. So tell our listeners and our viewers how they can get in touch with you and how they can order from you and that kind of thing. CALLIE: You can find my stuff at sparksofjoyco.com. Our handle is sparks of joy co on all platforms. And then we have our website. MARY: Perfect. Again, Callie thank you so much. We can sit here and learn from you so so much. So everybody, you know she gave us some really good nuggets and even some Easter eggs in there, to use a Taylor Swift term, that you can pull out when you listen to this podcast and kind of put to use in your own life and your own building of your business. So Callie, thank you so much again. CALLIE: Thank you.  MARY: Take care.        

Candice Lim is joined by culture critic and reporter Cyrena Touros to break down the battle between Universal Music Group and TikTok. On February 1, UMG started pulling their artists' music from TikTok after their licensing contract expired. This meant creators weren't able to interact with music from artists like Taylor Swift, Drake and Olivia Rodrigo. UMG claims this drastic move was necessary to ensure appropriate compensation for their artists and songwriters. But TikTok fired back, saying UMG was putting “their own greed above” the interests of UMG's artists because TikTok is a free marketing and discovery platform for their talent. So who's the real villain here and how will musicians and creators cope during this battle? This podcast is produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim and Rachelle Hampton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim is joined by culture critic and reporter Cyrena Touros to break down the battle between Universal Music Group and TikTok. On February 1, UMG started pulling their artists' music from TikTok after their licensing contract expired. This meant creators weren't able to interact with music from artists like Taylor Swift, Drake and Olivia Rodrigo. UMG claims this drastic move was necessary to ensure appropriate compensation for their artists and songwriters. But TikTok fired back, saying UMG was putting “their own greed above” the interests of UMG's artists because TikTok is a free marketing and discovery platform for their talent. So who's the real villain here and how will musicians and creators cope during this battle? This podcast is produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim and Rachelle Hampton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim is joined by culture critic and reporter Cyrena Touros to break down the battle between Universal Music Group and TikTok. On February 1, UMG started pulling their artists' music from TikTok after their licensing contract expired. This meant creators weren't able to interact with music from artists like Taylor Swift, Drake and Olivia Rodrigo. UMG claims this drastic move was necessary to ensure appropriate compensation for their artists and songwriters. But TikTok fired back, saying UMG was putting “their own greed above” the interests of UMG's artists because TikTok is a free marketing and discovery platform for their talent. So who's the real villain here and how will musicians and creators cope during this battle? This podcast is produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim and Rachelle Hampton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim is joined by culture critic and reporter Cyrena Touros to break down the battle between Universal Music Group and TikTok. On February 1, UMG started pulling their artists' music from TikTok after their licensing contract expired. This meant creators weren't able to interact with music from artists like Taylor Swift, Drake and Olivia Rodrigo. UMG claims this drastic move was necessary to ensure appropriate compensation for their artists and songwriters. But TikTok fired back, saying UMG was putting “their own greed above” the interests of UMG's artists because TikTok is a free marketing and discovery platform for their talent. So who's the real villain here and how will musicians and creators cope during this battle? This podcast is produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim and Rachelle Hampton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Candice Lim is joined by culture critic and reporter Cyrena Touros to break down the battle between Universal Music Group and TikTok. On February 1, UMG started pulling their artists' music from TikTok after their licensing contract expired. This meant creators weren't able to interact with music from artists like Taylor Swift, Drake and Olivia Rodrigo. UMG claims this drastic move was necessary to ensure appropriate compensation for their artists and songwriters. But TikTok fired back, saying UMG was putting “their own greed above” the interests of UMG's artists because TikTok is a free marketing and discovery platform for their talent. So who's the real villain here and how will musicians and creators cope during this battle? This podcast is produced by Se'era Spragley Ricks, Daisy Rosario, Candice Lim and Rachelle Hampton. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Join us in this episode as we unfold the remarkable e-commerce tale of Josh and Jenna Coleman, a powerhouse couple who turned their online sales venture into a resounding success. They take us on a journey from their beginnings in marketing and finance to dominating Amazon and TikTok Shop, sharing the strategic decisions and personal pivots that propelled them into the limelight. Their story is a masterclass in leveraging life's twists – from raising kids to career transitions – to build a thriving business that resonates with the potential of passive income. Listen in as the conversation turns to the nitty-gritty of starting with side gigs and progressing to Amazon Kindle Direct Publishing (KDP) and Fulfillment by Amazon (FBA). Josh and Jenna provide valuable insights into using platforms like Helium 10 for market research and how they used their design acumen to create products that captivate both digital and physical markets. Discover how they utilized KDP as a testing ground for market interest, leading to a booming workbook series that soared in popularity, thanks to smart social media strategies. Finally, our chat takes a deeper look at the couple's viral breakthroughs and how they utilized TikTok Shop and Shopify to amplify their business. They share the behind-the-scenes of managing a small business through the highs of viral sales spikes and the challenges of inventory and listing protection. The duo also reflects on the profound impact that Amazon and TikTok Shop have had on their lives and the lives of influencers who have joined them on this journey. Tune in for a dose of inspiration and practical advice that could set you on your own path to e-commerce success.   In episode 532 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Josh, and Jenna discuss: 00:00 - Married Couple's E-Commerce Success Story 05:05 - Transitioning to E-Commerce  09:17 - Side Jobs to KDP and Amazon FBA 08:24 - Hooking With Software and Numbers 12:48 - Comparing Opportunities in FBA and KDP 17:40 - Transitioning to Full-Time E-commerce 20:53 - Viral Success on TikTok and Amazon 27:31 - Start Small Business With TikTok 31:50 - Learning in the Space 34:39 - Promoting Business With TikTok and Shopify 37:30 - Strategies for Promoting Products on TikTok 44:21 - The Importance of Branding in Strategy 45:19 - Amazon and TikTok's Impact on Lives ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup  (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On Youtube: youtube.com/@Helium10/videos Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got a married couple with an incredible story. In not even their first full year on Amazon, they've grossed over half a million dollars. And in not even their first full month on TikTok Shop, they've grossed over a quarter of a million dollars. And they're going to share how it's possible to set up a TikTok Shop account in only 10 minutes. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. Are you browsing a Shopify, Walmart, Esty, Alibaba or Pinterest page and maybe you see a cool product that you want to get some more data on? Well, while you're on those pages, you can actually use the Helium 10 Chrome extension Demand Analyzer to get instant data about what's happening on Amazon for those keywords on these other websites. Or maybe you want to then follow up and get an actual supplier quote from a company on Alibaba.com in order to see if you can get this product produced. You can do that also with the Helium 10 Demand Analyzer. Both of these are part of the Helium 10 Chrome extension, which you can download for free at h10.me/extension. Bradley Sutton: Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Series Sellers podcast by Helium 10. I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show. It's a completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. We've got a husband and wife dynamic, serious seller duo here for the first time on the show the double J crew, josh and Jenna. How's it going, guys? Josh: Good. Jenna: Pretty well Thanks for having us.  Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Awesome. Now where are you guys located? Jenna: We are right outside Philly. 0:01:45 - Bradley Sutton: Okay, so you're on the East Coast, all right. So you guys were born and raised, or are you transplants from somewhere else? Jenna: So well, I'm a transplant. He is born and raised out here. I'm originally from the Midwest, the suburbs of Chicago. Bradley Sutton: In West Philadelphia born and raised. Oh sorry, probably back. Josh: Yes, yeah, oh she could sing it with you the whole thing. Jenna: Oh, yes, I could, yeah. We met in college out here and I kind of fell in love with the East Coast so we knew we wanted to raise our kids out here. So yeah, then we ended up out here. Bradley Sutton: You're supposed to say you fell in love with him and then you fell in love with the East Coast. Jenna: Right, yes. Bradley Sutton: Okay, in that order there. Exactly what college did you guys meet? Jenna: We went to Nova Villanova. Bradley Sutton: Villanova Okay, yes, I knew one of my favorite Clippers was Kerry Kittles way back in the 90s. Jenna: Yeah, 85 here they won yeah. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, so the reason I know him is funny. Here's just a really crazy story. You guys may or may not know. I used to be a Zumba fitness influencer and in my channel that I created on Zumba that had 30 million views. It was called CrazySockTV and I created that. It's kind of like a branding kind of thing. I wanted to be memorable so that people in memory is my brand, and just not to be some random person dancing Zumba, which was a million people. So what I would do is I would have a crazy like one sock on one leg and then one sock on an arm, and that was what I came up with. It was always a crazy sock, but where I originally got that idea was Kerry Kittles. He would just have one sock when he played with the Clippers, which is which is my team, and I'm like that is the most weirdest thing I've ever seen. I'm going to roll with that idea. And that went to tens of millions of Zumba video views and so, yeah, that's my Villanova tie right there. Anyways, all right. So you guys, what did each of you major in there? Jenna: My bachelor's was in marketing and he was finance. Math and finance yeah, I mean he took everything for fun math, he loves math. So like that, my fine classes were like astronomy and his were, I don't know, derivatives and anything he could with math. Bradley Sutton: What did you guys do after graduation then? Did you, either of you, enter into that world that you guys were studying? Jenna: We did. We did a little bit. So I did marketing for my dad's financial planning firm and then I decided I wanted to be a teacher. I got my master's of education, went down that route and then we were actually living in Chicago for the beginning of our first quarters. And then we had our twins and moved back out to the East coast and I definitely took a good break there for like the better part of a decade and didn't really jump back into anything until like until this. I mean not really fully into anything, until this. Bradley Sutton: And then, Josh, what were you doing all this, all this time? I'm assuming you were the income, then if she was taking a break, so what were you doing? Josh: Yep. All sorts of things in finance Consulting. Jenna: Yeah, so working too many hours a week Josh: Flying a hundred thousand miles a year, like domestically only, which you. You probably fly that in four trips, but around the world domestically, that's a harder target to hit. Bradley Sutton: So, yeah, this doesn't sound like an exciting job. So what? What was the thought process on, like how you guys ended up with e-commerce? Was it just like all right, I don't want to do this always? Or were you looking for a side hustle? Or how do you go from the finance and marketing world to and the stay at home you know world, to switch to e-commerce? Jenna: So I mean that was definitely part of it. The time constraints and I think the idea that there could be some passive component to e-commerce was interesting. But I really was. I mean, josh knows I would. I was admiring e-commerce for like the better part of a decade. I was that person that everything I looked at I was like, oh, I could create this, I can make it better, even with educational stuff and tools and resources. I was making my own and kind of like just admiring it from afar and saying, you know, when it's the right time, then then I'll go into it, cause we are not like the dip your toe in type of people. We are like the 50 foot cannonball jump ball in. It's not like we're just going to try, you know, like a product and see how it goes. When we I knew when we were going to go in it was going to be all in. So I was waiting for life to slow down and it was really like actually the craziest, the easiest time of our life and I kind of just had this like epiphany that life doesn't really slow down, no matter how old your kids get. So if I don't do it now, it's probably now or never. Jenna: I can remember I think it was like a month after we got out of the hospital with my son. So our oldest son has epilepsy and he had about a year of failed anti seizure meds and treatments and it was just in and out of the hospital and they eventually came up. So they have this all over the country but it's the medical ketogenic diet for epilepsy. So they put him on that and we had to go to the hospital and we had to learn all about it and I kind of had this moment of I was like this is more intense and exhausting than twins. This has been my dream forever. I'm like if I don't jump in now, I'm never going to do it. Bradley Sutton: Well, was there something that made you that's still not a natural thing to just like jump into, like, like? Did you get hit with an ad somewhere, or where you're searching how to make money at home? Or how did you land on Ecom? Jenna: So I definitely found a couple ads there, because there were. I did take a couple courses that were teaching you how you can sell on Amazon and I had already had ideas and I kind of thought selling an Amazon? I didn't understand the process of it. So I was like, all right, so I think I can figure this out. There's courses to do it. So I took the courses, I downloaded like a ton of podcasts and he knew I kind of like dug into this whole of like just learning and education and I didn't want to bring it to him until I was like I can do great. Yeah, you're like you're doing great, you're doing your own thing. Like I said, we're not like a dip your toe in type of person. I didn't want to bring it to him until I thought this is something he would like to. So I really just kind of like dug in on the courses and I already knew the things I wanted to create, but I didn't understand like the science, the research behind it and it's funny we were talking about this. I was like, okay, so I listened to your Serious Sellers Podcast before I could understand 10% of what you said and I remember like listening to one of your podcasts and a few others like it and I was like this is amazing, this part I don't understand creating design innovation. I understand the numbers. Bradley Sutton: We're here talking, by the way, about more or less 2019, 2020, 2021. Last year, fall of  2022. Jenna: Yeah, yeah. So I listened to one of your episodes and a couple others and I was like, oh, my goodness, josh would love this. There's software, there's research, there's numbers that can go into this. So basically I hooked him by showing him that kind of stuff. I was like, look, if you can do the product research and you can tell me the numbers and you can do this, I will design and create their products. And look, they have software like Helium 10, he was like lit up. He's like this is fantastic, I can play. I mean, he was playing around in it before we even had our first product like that. Yeah, like before we even really knew if we were going to do a product yet. Josh: And now I'm like now we're here. What happened yeah? Jenna: So I hooked him with that kind of stuff. We're very different, very different in terms of like, our interest and what we like, and I think it actually helps in this industry. So yeah, that's it. I knew I wanted to for a long time. I don't think he knew we wanted to until he saw that aspect of the business that I could kind of hook him in. Bradley Sutton: So at this time you still weren't working yourself. Only Josh was. Jenna: I've done a lot of things on the side, like I would just say side jobs and stuff. Like you know, I've done network marketing and coaching and stuff like that. Josh: Coaching sports yes. Jenna: Yeah. Bradley Sutton: What sport did you coach? Jenna: I coached volleyball. I played volleyball in college, so I just here whenever. I could camps and helped at schools and stuff. Bradley Sutton: But you had, you had the kind of bandwidth, but. But, but, josh, you know, you know traveling everything. If it was up to him it probably might not have gotten done because he was pretty busy then. So that's an important thing to know. Like, hey, maybe it's the husband, maybe it's a wife, but but you know you got to have somebody who's able to dedicate some time to this, or else you might never get started. So then you guys, you know, started dipping yourselves into Two courses and now the very first product that you launched, uh, are you still selling that product now? Jenna: Yeah, but well, I mean it's of our FBA product we have, yeah, we have. We launched our first ones for KDP books and then our first product we launched last summer. Bradley Sutton: Talk about that for a second. What made you go that route? Jenna: So KDP, I mean, well, it's inexpensive. And I already was creating designs and things like that and I knew that was something that we could do while we're learning, because we wanted to. When we wanted to launch products, we knew that we wanted to launch more than one at a time and we wanted to make sure we had the research into it and we knew they were going to take a while, especially, coming up to you know, the timing of the year that we were looking at sourcing products was a little tricky. Josh: It was January, right, yeah, it was a year ago, yeah a year ago was when we launched our first KDP book in February of last year and it was Really based on. She knew the audience that she wanted to serve, but we had to test the content and we felt like KDP was a good place to test the content of like a meal planner and fitness type Trackers and budget planner, and then on the education side, cursive workbooks and you know things of that nature. Because when you look at the you know audience that she wanted to serve, my Research coming out of it was trying to find you know products that interested or that, um, that Audience wanted at the time. And so that's why we used KDP is we got to kind of test content and then we also got to test PPC, play with it and learn it and in a in a real experimental way, instead of With an FBA product that was going to require a you know a large Upfront investment and inventory and all that kind of stuff and we had started that process. But it takes a while. Bradley Sutton: So, but basically you use a lot of the similar strategies, like using Helium 10 to see demand and, and that's how you like landed on what KDP thing you were going to uh, launch and how to optimize your listing things like that. at what point then Were you like hey, not a lot, I want to do physical products. Jenna: So some of our designs that went into the KDP books are actually used in our physical products. Um, we edited them, made them a little bit better. We were able to use some reviews. So, for example, we have a meal planner, fitness tracker, or I think we call that the advanced meal planner and fitness tracker in KDP, um, and then we were able to make some improvements on that to make it into one of our vegan leather planners, um, but yeah, so, like we, those designs took me A lot of time to focus on and creating those. So we just had to make some adjustments to make those doable and we were able to get samples and stuff as we put out that KDP book. We were getting samples because we knew we wanted to eventually make it in FBA. We knew that there was more money obviously in FBA than KDP. Bradley Sutton: Were you able to do things by going, you know, directly to somebody who actually physically produced this? That was not an option with KDP, like a certain kind of Cover or something like that that you just literally could not even do KDP Uh, what are some of those things? Jenna: the KDP books. You can only do paperback or hardcover. You can have limited size Um and, as you know, with FBA you can do anything you want, really. I mean, you can create any material, cover, um things in our meal planner, fitness tracker. One of the things that I wanted was that they could tear off their grocery list and take it with them. You can't have perforated pages in a KDP book, um, and that's also, I think, where you can get seen on KDP versus you're. You're shown everywhere on amazon right and isn't KDP, I believe it's just the books that you're shown in yeah, you, you're shown in. Josh: You're shown in search To an extent, but it's an ISPN Then identified a product, not an ASIN, not a traditional like ASIN Uh product. So, yeah, you're definitely Limited as to where you show up. 0:13:50 - Bradley Sutton: Do you use it kind of like as a like an incubator almost for some of your FBA, like if it really takes off with KDP, then that's what you maybe double down on and make a physical uh copy. Josh: I will. I will say yes, and our most successful product, which we launched in December, that that most recently, um, fortunately exploded on like TikTok and such, is really a culmination of like a case study in that it's a handwriting set of handwriting workbooks that have disappearing ink and such and Most of that content you know. She built over time and we released in A variety of different like KDP workbooks while she was. You know, we kind of in always in mind had man, it would be great to do this one thing. The keyword always looked great, there were so many things about it that we felt like we could improve and we were so excited about it. But we knew it would take a lot of time and KDP's content kind of feeling and seeing how things worked was really a huge part of the design over like a nine month period before we released those in December. Jenna: And we're still using our KDP designs into new things. We have our newest product coming out, the bible verse mapping that. We're working on getting those out by spring and they were in KDP and now we're able to get those and a linen cover. A different thing for spring, for FBA products. Bradley Sutton: What's your, what's your average Retail price on the KDP side? And then, of those, how much do you take home? Josh: well, our average, every one of our products on KDP is 999, except for the homeschool planner, which is 1499, and on the, the Products that are nine, that call it ten dollars. On the products that are ten dollars, we take home about $2 and 60 cents A sale, and then on the homeschool planner, we take home about $3 and 80 cents, 90 cents give or take. Bradley Sutton: And then are you doing PBC for this at all, or it's just all organic? Josh: Yeah, we do. I think our total PBC spend on KDP is about $15 a day maybe. So it's small. Obviously it's all relative, but um, but that 1500 a month is net of you know PBC charges specifically. So it's a pretty low a cost Process. As long as you don't get sucked into chasing physical products, you stay in your lane, recognize that you're a KDP product and not try to go after FBA products not that I ever tried that then you can. You can do fine. Bradley Sutton: It's separate log on for KDP and you're a seller central, because that that's kind of like a different. It's not seller central, I know, but how different is the interface for advertising? I know Shavali you know probably knows this but I've never done Advertising for KDP Is it very similar, like you know, you can do, you know, phrase match and Sponsored and campaigns. Josh: Almost an hour, Bradley Sutton: Okay. Okay, cool. Were you selling the entirety of 2023, or did you start later, not January? Josh: KDP. Our first one was February, and then our second one was like April, and then our first FBA product was July 1. Bradley Sutton: Okay, so not a full year of KDP, not a full year, obviously, of FBA. What would you say if you were to combine the gross sales of both on Amazon, only For your planners and things? What? What would you say? It was total at the end of the end of the year in the past year, Since well we haven't been out of here, but yeah okay, yeah, so total 2023? Josh: About 400,000. Bradley Sutton: Are you still doing your day job or did you at some point last year that go all in on the Ecom? Josh: It took about like eight days to realize that there's no chance I was gonna not be able to To like go all in into this. Jenna: it was too much fun. Yeah, you and, and the hours you worked, and the time you worked, I mean, I mean not to say that you don't right now, where it has, we're starting everything up, but uh, yeah, I mean we're trying to launch a good amount of stuff. Josh: It's a lot different being on a plane a hundred thousand Miles a year than it is being, you know, up late at night talking with manufacturers or something, but still in your own house. It's a little different. Bradley Sutton: Was this your first year? In a few years that you're, you didn't make your high status on your travel? Josh: I absolutely it was a second year, but it was the first year I haven't been on an airplane in like my entire life. Jenna: Really amazing yeah, when was.  I mean I guess, so yeah, no, we've really. Josh: Because after COVID we actually started driving Everyone like if we went somewhere, love it to the kids, like it and and frankly it's fun for the two of us. Jenna: And the things we like to do. I mean we love to go to the mountains and snowboard. They're all close enough here the ocean, the beach, all that stuff is driving distance from here, which, growing up in the Midwest, that's not possible. So I love that we can just get to anything within a couple hours by the way, it was great, great story. Josh: We're in the Midwest and after school and she's like, oh, we, you can snowboard here. And I was like, awesome, where? And we she's like I'll take you this place. And we're driving and the nav you know those old Tom Tom. Things right is like this is when we live in Chicago over after we got married two miles you're at your destination and I'm like Jen, I can see about 15 miles in any direction right now there is nowhere to. Actually I don't believe. I like kind of I want to believe you. Yeah, I was like this is like a sled. Jenna: We found a hill somewhere that we turn into is yeah, so yeah, we like the mountains out here. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, well, don't got much of that here exactly in my town when I live, few miles from the beach here in California. But all right now, at what point did you guys discover TikTok shop? Josh: one of your serious seller podcasts in the. In the fall you had on a create some, a creator who did a video, a viral video that went viral for, I think, one of Lizzie's products, but I forget exactly which one it was might have been the body suit One of them, but you had someone on that was explaining, kind of somehow some of the worked and it was super intriguing. And then we went to the meeting in New York where Lizzie spoke and Jenna drove home and you set it up in New York City and I set up the. I set up our TikTok shop in the car on the hot spot. Bradley Sutton: Well, what they're talking about, guys, by the way, is we have their helium-10 elite members and we have a quarterly in-person workshop for Helium 10 members and we did one in New York and we brought somebody Elizabeth, who's been on the podcast before talking about TikTok shop, and she kind of broke down exactly what she did, and I remember you guys at that it was like light bulbs were going off in your head as you guys were watching. We're like wait, wait a minute, we've got a perfect Kind of product that would do well on TikTok shop. So then you got home or he said on the way home, not even you weren't even home yet, you're already setting it up on the way home in the car, yeah, I feel like in the car, because the kids are with my great, with their, my parents. Jenna: They're great kids for a couple days, but you draw like literally on the drive. I mean, what is it? That's less than three hours from New York, oh yeah it's a couple hours. He was done by the time we got back. He's like we're set up, let's go. I was like are you kidding me? Bradley Sutton: Now, at what point there were you like oh man, we're on to something like what was your first kind of like viral day, or? Josh: Frankly, Christmas was our first viral day. On Christmas Day, you know, I had Alerts on, like sale alerts on TikTok, because we didn't get too many before that. So we had sales, but not compared to Amazon. And so our phone. I'm like it's Christmas, leave me alone, who is bothering me? And I was like not that many family and friends are trying to say Merry Christmas. And so it was sales. And we had no idea what was going on. And it was a you know video that was about 10 seconds long, that someone had posted, that had picked up and had, you know, half a million views that day and a million by the next, and the following day, sold us out of our meal planners. I was about 500 on TikTok and about 800 on Amazon so at that point. Bradley Sutton: Sold out in like two days. Josh: Yeah, it generated more Amazon Sales than TikTok shop, even though it was from TikTok shop for that first product. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, as well as our website, so you didn't have like a link. It was just like it got sold out and then people were just trying to search for it on Amazon, you know, to try and get it, and they found your product through there. Josh: Yep and our website, yeah, and we found where they found it was be banner ads, like sponsored display ads, because they recognized the Products or if they would search for something meal planner or fitness or whatever. Our banner ads had like a you know 6% a cost. I remember we're looking at them and I was like, oh, that's what. Like they didn't necessarily know what to search because I didn't really think about it at the time. We just had the title as Grace will buy design meal planner or fitness tracker or something, whereas all the conversions, PPC were happening from there. And that's when we kind of realized you know, there's something to this, to your point about your question about when did we realize like this was a thing, when we realized how well these markets could play off each other and help each other. That was when that day, Christmas in the day after, is when I was like oh yeah, oh wow, like this is, this is a thing. Jenna: I think you were pretty excited about it pretty early though, yeah. Josh: I was excited. Jenna: I'm the pessimist, I was the one that was like I don't know. I mean, we're still. We just had our second product go viral, even more so, and I'm still like I don't know if we should we get the inventory. Is it gonna repeat? Josh: Yeah, it probably won't work. Yeah. Bradley Sutton: So now the planners on Amazon. This is not, this wasn't your KDP, this is a physical one. So what's the retail price on these? On Amazon? Josh: $19.99 Bradley Sutton: $It was 19.99, and then so what? What kind of profit margin on Amazon? Josh: Actually before PPC about 50%. So they're 240 landed plus small stand. We we made sure that packaged their point seven, four inches thick so that we can fit in Small standard. So basically about a 50% or shade above 50% margin and then with PPC, with. PPC, like if you take launch and everything in the consideration. The first, you know Three, four months which was the end of last year, where you know we 20% net margins on, including launch. Bradley Sutton: So about 20%, probably more. You know if we're not considering launch in there now. I yeah. Now if, what kind of retail price did you have it on TikTok shop? Did you still keep it at 1999 or did you take advantage of how you can just add shipping and TikTok pays for it? Or at least they were before? Josh: So we did not do that where we lower the price, because so TikTok shop for Sellers who use seller shipping which is what we were doing, because we are fulfilling some of it from our Amazon inventory, for example, all of it from our Amazon inventory that if you spent $20 as a customer, they would pay for shipping, TikTok shop meaning so the the customer would get it for free for shipping and then TikTok shop would reimburse us and Basically, the $7.99 it's like for one item Quantity of one is what they would do. So we would make the product $20 and shipping $7.99 and as long as we do that, the customer doesn't pay shipping and we get the $20 and reimbursed for shipping at $7.99. So 27. Bradley Sutton: So on Amazon, let's say that you were taking home, you know, after PPC and stuff you know like, let's say, six bucks or something like that. You know maybe five, six dollars or so, which is which is pretty decent on Amazon. Not many people can say that. But then, for that same order, on TikTok shop, how much money were you taking due to TikTok, like subsidizing your, your fees and all this other stuff?  Josh: Yep. So basically, to break it down, so we would get the $20 Minus the 20% commission that went to that creator, right, so we would get $16 for the product Plus the $7.99 for the shipping reimbursement, so $23.99 that we would receive, and TikTok pays the influencer directly. We don't have to do all that accounting, thank goodness. So 2399 that we would receive, it's 240 landed and our MCF fee to like ship and deliver an item to a customer is $8 and change but eight, call it $8. So $23.99 in and Around $11 and 50 cents out, so double plus. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, double or more the profit margin for the exact same product on TikTok shop. Now what's this, Jenna? Are you doing some kind of Like? Are you the influencer for your own product to like? Are you doing like lives or videos or some? Or am I getting you guys Confused with somebody? Jenna: I mean I do it, I do it, um, it's you know, I really More so. I mean they had different promotions that they were running that you could get ad credits for doing lives. That's why I don't think I get a lot of traffic and that's really not, in my opinion, where we get a large amount of sales, the sales I mean especially with our group books. That's well, that was all because of videos and influencers. So it gave us ad credits, which was great, um, but personally I'm not. I do it for the business, but I'm not a fan of being in front of the camera any more than I need to. But I was all for, you know, starting up a small business. When they were like I think it was like $1500 in ad credits, I was like I'll do it, let's do it, you know that's what it was. Josh: No, you're right. During December, if you went live, you know a certain amount of time and Spent 1500, they would give you 1500 an ad credit. And so we basically did that, and the day the promotion ended, they deposited 15 like they were exactly as they Said it would be, and she was tortured every minute that she was live. Jenna: So I would never classify myself as an influencer. I that's what I love about take talk shop that you can use the professionals that that do that as your influencers. Bradley Sutton: Okay. So now you guys I mean technically, if you know Christmas was, was around. You know was around where you really started taking off. You know, by the time that we're recording this podcast, you know, maybe you, like you, can talk about your first full month of TikTok shop. What were the gross sales on that platform? Josh: Since, if you include Christmas in that time, there 250,000 dollars. Bradley Sutton: In one week in one, in one month, in one month in one month in one thirty 70-72 hour period. Josh: They were 180,000 dollars. Jenna: That was that group books viral video, which was crazy yeah and it's amazing to me still, because we had a few large influencers that were, like you know, half a million followers. That I'm like I was the optimist for those. I'm like this is gonna be the one, and they did great videos and the video that took off. That's what I like 9 million views, knowing I don't know, I mean she had, I think, just under 40,000 and which is still big, but it's not like the half million or, you know, near a million followers, that we had other people. So you just don't know and I mean the video was good. Bradley Sutton: So the fact that you guys did a 250 or quarter of a million, does that mean that your influencers took home like 50 grand themselves for doing videos, so that that influencers specifically. Josh: Generated, yeah, single mom she's like the nicest person and we were so happy because she sent a message. You know that the commission was like life-changing, she was ready to get to be done with this and it was 30,000 and change in commission income that she generated based on her post and that, just like that's again when further, it has furthered this point of like you don't have to be the influencer because you know Jenna can be Jenna and Talk to the influencers, which again we try to do like on it, like we write Cards to them when they make content, like all of those types of things, and then it's so much more natural and the creators love doing posts on Jenna's products because she can relate to them and she cares, like she genuinely cares, and it was so cool to see that from a couple of the moms that I've had really successful posts on our products, that you just sit there and you're like this is a great, great business model, that even though they're increasing TikTok shop, increasing their referral fees, no problem, worth every penny. Bradley Sutton: You know you guys have some hijackers on some. You must have be out of stock or something. You guys know about that. I'm just looking at your day, your story now. Josh: Yep all right, you guys need to take care of that. Bradley Sutton: do some tests we already those guys offers that, do you mind if I show people your product page here.? Josh: Yeah, all right, let me um they're the worst because the shipping is like weeks and weeks and weeks that we ordered it right. Yeah, it's killing. Bradley Sutton: I mean the fact you know that that's when you that, by the way, that that's when it's like you know, until you get it fixed, you know where you might want to like suppress your listing, where you take out the images and then nobody can sell on it. You know, so that you know your Every day that somebody has it active. You're like losing your, your keyword ranking, your conversion rate and stuff like that. So if you don't think you're gonna fix that right away, you know, try and get your listing suppressed somehow, you know taking out the image is doing something. Josh: I said that this is where you're always learning in this space because, yeah, these are problems that you didn't know would be problems. Inventory management didn't know that was a problem till all of a sudden it was a Problem. So it's been great to have resources and help from people like you know, Helium 10 folks and other folks in the space, which is Such a help because you're going through for the first time. Bradley Sutton: So then, going back to your main product, which is in stock here, this is the main one that you sell on TikTok as well, right, and the ones that that went viral before. Josh: It was the first one that went viral. It's not the largest selling of our products anymore, but it's the second, and it was the one that was here first. This product released in August yeah, august. Bradley Sutton: Did this originally start as KDP or this was a from scratch? Josh: Oh yeah, you may yep, no, we did a version of this via KDP, which, if yeah, Jenna's author page is like amazon.com/author/jennacoleman, and that's where KDP stuff is and there's a there's a 11. It's called like the advanced meal, the advanced weekly meal planner Yep, but yeah, we reached a PSR of like two and then it all went out of stock. Bradley Sutton: All right. So then this you know, and then this is, this is what you also have on your TikTok page, and so doing some cool numbers, all right. So so you, you showed me the other day like there is a for anybody who has a, an Amazon account and a Shopify account. They can literally start TikTok shop. I Within like what? 20 minutes, would you say, or less, or? Josh: Yeah, I mean we've had some people that have taken Time to like if they have a sole prop, like where they don't have a business in some ways, like where they don't have an EIN or some things. There's been some people. That has taken some time. But TikTok's due diligence on you as a company, the Shopify system, seems to Serve as enough validation for TikTok shop that they're good to go and you get set up pretty quick with a shop and Then an ad account on the business side. Then it pulls from their Amazon inventory. Bradley Sutton: Then it pulls from their Amazon inventory. So I, you know, I, you guys, don't have a way to share your screen, but maybe you can just verbally Walk through those steps. So somebody has their Amazon account and then do they need to have the Shopify account already tied to their Amazon through, like by with Prime? Josh: Yeah, so okay. So good question, but not by with Prime. For fulfilling on TikTok shop by with Prime can be used on your actual Shopify website, like if you have your website on Shopify but you don't actually need a website to do the TikTok Shopify Amazon integration as long as you have the program Shopify. There's two sides to it. There's the TikTok side and there is a native app. In other words, TikTok shop has built an app that sits on Shopify's Interface so you can download on Shopify the TikTok app that allows you to create your shop and Create your business center and ads manager. Right. So all from Shopify to TikTok shop so it can push To TikTok and then, if you have like a personal TikTok account, it Can link that to your store and convert it to a business account basically. Bradley Sutton: In Shopify. What? Where do they go and Shopify if they have their Shopify account? They got their Amazon account. What's the? If they're not tied together, how do you do? They need to get it from the Amazon app store, the Shopify app from the Amazon app store, to tie it to the Shopify account? Josh: In the Shopify app store, there is a TikTok app and an Amazon MCF app. They need both. Bradley Sutton: Okay, so you do it through Shopify instead of Amazon. We do it in the middle. Josh: Yeah, and then the Amazon MCF app is what pulls from Amazon and all they do really there is they have to sync up to skew right to make sure that the skew and Shopify matches the one in Amazon, which the app will say you're good, and then that your shipping map. So if you say standard shipping defaults to MCF standard, if you've ever done an MCF, the person has done an MCF order. Then it will say okay, when an order comes in and you fulfill it, it's gonna fulfill via Whichever MCF option, standard option. So that way TikTok shop syncs immediately to Shopify. Shopify pulls the inventory and ships it and then Shopify gives the tracking number back to TikTok shop Bradley Sutton: And then when you, when you, you know, set up your TikTok shop From your Shopify and if your Shopify is already pulling in your Amazon, you know Images and things like that, the Shopify Site, it publishes all your images and description and stuff to TikTok shop, right? Josh: Yep. Bradley Sutton: Wow. So, guys, this is not rocket science where you have to know coding and a bunch of crazy things in order to get up and running, but, at the same time, it's not something that, hey, you just turn it on and you make a quarter of a million dollars, you know, in a month. It requires you know it's heavily on influencers. So what's your guys' best suggestions of somebody's just setting up? They do everything you just said until now. They've got their Amazon store. Now they've got their Shopify set up. Now they set up their TikTok shop. It's pulling. It's all tied to Shopify and tied to Amazon. How do I get eyeballs in front of my product? Josh: The two biggest recommendations we would say is that. So I'll let her say on our account what we should have, because there are some things that you should have on your account when an influencer looks you up, it's kind of like having a website if they go to your shop and you don't have any posts or anything. So I'll let her cover that. But on the flip side, on the affiliate side, you know, you can go into the affiliate dashboard right inside TikTok shop and you have immediate, direct access to creators and that is really where you can do 50 at a time where you can reach out to. You can create a message, select a product that you want to offer them a commission to promote, and they'll receive your DM right in their affiliate dashboard that invites them to promote that product. And so being able to get in there and send 50 of those a day to reach out to folks that are relevant to at least your audience and be careful not just going after huge creators. You're able to see how each creator does. You're able to see their sales, their engagement, all that kind of stuff, and you can go and directly reach out and just use the hard work method instead of the blast or spend money just throwing money to be there, money to build your awareness. You can do manual reach outs, but then on our page. Jenna: So I would say I think in the beginning, no matter what, it's hard to get influencers to talk to you because you haven't had any product sales right. They can see how much they can see, so I think it's really important to focus on connecting with them and I think a lot of influencers, when they're sharing a product, they don't just want to know what it is and how much it is, they want to know the story behind it. So a lot of the ones that we connected with especially some of the bigger influencers where they have plenty of options of what to share they kind of want to know the story behind your product and a lot of people love to know when there is a small business owner behind it. Why did you create it? Who are you? What went into this? And that helps in connecting in the story. So a lot of them use that I've connected with the fact that I'm a homeschool parent and a lot of them are homeschool parents in terms of some of the educational stuff or other ones I've connected with. I'm a former public school teacher too and they connected the fact that we you know that we were both educators. Some of it is mom life and connecting with you know busy meal planning and just connecting in different ways. So if you're just honest about your story, sometimes it's the things that surprised me that we had connections on that. They were like, wow, that's really cool, I also have a kid, you know one with allergies on a specific diet that you know. I saw you, you know you created a meal planner or something and so different ways to connect the making of your products and sharing in those Like. Jenna: I try to do reels a little bit on that and sometimes that will help because I think when they're considering they go through and see some of your reels that you've created not just your products they don't just go to your storefront. I will notice they'll sometimes like my reels and my reels don't have many views. A lot of them have, like you know, like a hundred, a couple hundred, but the influencers were go and check to see, you know like, and sometimes I'll talk about why I made the product the way I did or the features of it. So I really tried to push on that in the beginning because I think that helped connect with influencers. But then once you do have a product that goes viral and they see that you, you know you have a business that could help them as well then they come to you but it doesn't start that way, then they come to you, right. So now it's different, which is nice, but I would say in the beginning, the pessimist in me, I was like, oh my goodness, how are we ever going to like get them to come to us? Or like we're a small business that haven't proven that we can, but it really does, yeah. It does change. Bradley Sutton: When you go into that portal you know there's probably a hundred thousand influencers, a million influencers, whatever, in there. How are you picking and choosing those 50 that you want to reach out to first? Jenna: Really the same way that I think they're choosing us Like. I try to find people that connect with our brand. So when they're talking about educational stuff or their kids or I see that they have an interest in in recipes and cooking and things like that we try to find ways that are natural connections. So that's part of it. Josh: Because you can search by interest. Yes, so in the affiliate dashboard you can search by interest. Jenna: Right and then and then you know that's the really cool part about it To have that background view into people that that are going to be sharing your products. You can like go see what they're all about on their page. So it doesn't take long. But you know we usually spend time checking out their page before we even message someone. Bradley Sutton: All right Now, before we get into you know some, some just quick hitting strategies from you guys. If people want to reach out to you, I mean, they can obviously see your, your brand, and I just showed it. You know, graceful by design. But if people want to reach out to you guys for more questions or help with either TikTok or KDP or any of your specialties, how can they find you guys on the interwebs out there? Josh: The interwebs. I would say the best place is, you know, jenna. jenna@gracefulbydesigncom. Jenna: I do check on graceful by design for TikTok or Instagram. It's at graceful by design LLC, but either one of those. I do check the messaging in there, but yeah, it is. Bradley Sutton: Let's go ahead and get into your,  SST 60 second tip or 60 second strategy. You know, maybe, maybe one each gives us any strategy that you think will be beneficial to our listeners. 0:42:51 - Josh: I'm going to do a quick strategy on folks who are newer or who are getting into, maybe wanting to get into the space, in case someone like that is watching. Um, cause, this has been, you know, a real thing for us over the past year from, you know, building this together, and I would say that the biggest thing in the e-com is that you have to remember is that cash flow timing and the business right, the real business aspects of any business, hold true in the Ecom right. So, cash flow timing, when you're thinking about getting into a business and you see, you know again some of the courses out there that just say you know, things are easy and things are this and you can make money quickly, and all those types of things, I just would say that, uh, from a cautionary perspective, that you know, remember, this is a business that costs money and when you sell more on something like Amazon or TikTok shop, you need more reserves that they hold and you have to spend more on inventory and so and so those. That's just like a fundamental business practice. That I wanted to make sure you know we said is that it's not a, you know, fairytale industry. It's a hard work. You know business, real business, and I feel like that gets blushed over a little bit with a lot of the things that are out there. So that that's just in general, a principle and uh, and then my less way, less than 60 second tip is that you know your. Your biggest strength still is your brand, and to build a strategy today without a brand, I think is just challenging, because then you can just be you. So when you're reaching out to influencers or you're designing product, you can really actually relate to it, in addition to it being good research and all that kind of stuff, because people know whether you care about what it is that you're selling or making. Bradley Sutton: Well, it's been really great to see your journey, you know, from just learning about TikTok shop at that conference. And then you know selling out and then, and then guys, they can hire me just out there. So I don't have any website or anything, but they're now my customers for my family running 3PLs Cause I have a warehouse here and I found out that they were, they were struggling with shipping. So I'm like, hey, let me take your planners here and let me have my family help you guys ship. So they're shipping. You know 20-30 of these planners all the time. So, like it's really cool to first hand see, see your growth and uh, and now you know you're putting a food on the table of that one influencer. Well, not, not now you're. You're employing my family as well. So, but yeah, you're changing lives here left and right. I'm sure you're changing lives with people who have listened to this episode learning about the potential uh on KDP um with uh TikTok shop as well. So we'll definitely want to, you know, reach back out to you guys next, uh, next year, and see how. You know, we just got with you on your first full month of TikTok shop. Let let's see what happens after a full year of Amazon and TikTok shop. You guys will be probably have some cool stories to share. So thank you so much for joining us.

On this week's episode, I have content creation expert "Coco Mocoe”. Tune in as we talk about her unique eye on how to spot trends for the future, as well as what different social media platforms due for creators. We also discuss her thoughts on brand deals and what she looks for and her hopes and goals for the future. Show NotesCoco Mocoe on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cocomocoe/Coco Mocoe on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@cocomocoe?lang=enCoco Mocoe on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@UC7MC6lTh3ui3_id2n-vnlPQMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptsCoco Mocoe:Again, also with TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feedMichael Jamin:You're listening to, what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back. I have a very interesting guest for everyone today. So anyone who's listening to my podcast for any amount of time, I've always said, if you want to break into Hollywood, just start doing it. Stop asking permission, start. Just make it count on social media and just start posting whatever it is you want to be good at. Make a dedicated account to proving how good you are at this one thing, whether it's writing, performing music, whatever it is, and let's just see where it goes from there. Because if you can't do that, well then Hollywood's not going to pay you to do it. You got to do it for yourself. And so my next guest is an expert in this field because not only does she make a living out of predicting trends about people who've done this before, but she's doing it herself in building her own presence online. And content absolutely is essential. I turn to it when I have questions. So please welcome Coco Moko. Thank you so much. Coco Moko, which I love your name by the way.Coco Mocoe:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's so funny when I made my username, my real name's Colleen, but I go by Coco Moko, and when I made the name, I didn't know my account would blow up, and so my managers were like, let's keep it though. It has a good ring to it. It does.Michael Jamin:But tell me, okay, so I know you've made a living at it doing this, but before you started doing it for yourself, who were you working for?Coco Mocoe:Yes. It's such a great story too. It was kind of divine timing, I guess. So I studied marketing in college, and then after college, my family's from the LA area, so I was super lucky to just live in LA. And I started a job that I got off Craigslist, and it ended up being this website called Famous Birthdays. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's very Gen Z Young. It's kind of like Wikipedia, but at the time, famous Birthdays was the only website really documenting YouTubers and at the time, musically kids. And so we had a really big audience of 12 year olds. And so I got hired there and my job was to run the musically, which had then turned to TikTok. So I was on the app early, and then the founder of Famous Birthdays, his name's Evan, he's like, if you ever see someone on your free page that you think is going to be famous, just invite them in and we'll interview them.And shortly after that was when I saw Charlie Delio when she was really early. We invited her in and we were her first ever interview, and that went super viral. And then there was a few others from that kind of era of kids and because of the videos that I was working on at Famous birthdays that were getting, I think one of the videos with Charlie Delios at 40 million Views on YouTube. And because we got an early, so, but then from there, I then got hired at buzzfeed, and I was at Buzzfeed for three and a half years where I was working on the backend with strategy, coming up with videos, and it was really just my job to go into meetings with different brands and creators and stuff and just tell them what I think the upcoming trends will be, how I think platforms are shifting, mainly TikTok and how I think that they can best create ideas that will go viral or work with people that aren't famous enough yet that they're going to decline but are eager to come in. And so that was really where I got the start with predicting and stuff, and where I learned that I had a good eye for pattern recognition, and then I just started making my own tos. That kind of blew up. And then I quit my full-time job in June of this year and have been just doing full-time stuff since.Michael Jamin:And so now you have close to a million followers, which is huge. Thank you.Coco Mocoe:Yeah.Michael Jamin:Then so, okay, so when you work for yourself, what does that mean?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, so I never really thought that I would go the consultant route. It was something that kind of just happened as a result of the videos that I was making. I never posted my trend prediction videos or algorithm decoding kind of videos with the intention of getting hired, but I was getting so many inquiries from really big brands that wanted to just pick my brain for an hour or so when I was at buzzfeed. And then I just felt, I mean, it was the different legal non-compete clauses and stuff. And so I just eventually realized that financially it made more sense to just take an hour meeting with a brand and make what I would've made in a month. And I'm so lucky you never know how long it's going to last. I'm very, very lucky. So that's kind of what the full-time thing is. Consulting sometimes brand deals. I don't always like to do a ton of brand deals. I don't want my account to just feel like one big commercial. And then I've been lucky enough to have a lot of music people actually reach out to me and I consult on the music side as well, so super lucky. ButMichael Jamin:Yeah. Okay. So big brands want your opinions, but are you saying also that the creators as well want your opinions?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, a lot of creators, and I actually, that's why I made the podcast that I have ahead of the curve, which hopefully you'll be able to come on one day when your book comes out. Yeah, I love that. And I do my podcast because I can't meet with everyone, and so I started doing that for a way to reach more of the creators. But yeah, I do have a lot of creators reach out. I feel like bandwidth wise, it's hard. So I try to find ways to reach out to people in my community that isn't always just a money exchange or a meeting and stuff. So I'm still figuring it out, but I've been very lucky since I went full-time with this.Michael Jamin:You must know this, or I'm hoping. So when a musician, an actor or whatever comedian, when they're reaching out to you or they're following you, what is it do you think they want, do you think they just want to blow up on social media or do they want to move to what I do traditional Hollywood?Coco Mocoe:Yeah. No, it's such a good question, and I think a lot of it when I do get more of the bigger celebrities that have followed me every now and then, I'm always like, I don't know. At first I'd be like, I don't know why. I don't know what value I'm even providing them. I remember one time Paris Hilton followed me and I was like, she is the biggest influencer in the world. And I'm like, what could I potentially provide to someone like that through my videos? But I think a lot of it too is just when I've talked to people who have followed me, whether it's an actor or a musician or just a person who's watching tos and has never made one before. A lot of the times they say that they like that my videos are able to take something happening on the algorithm or on marketing and media, but I kind of give a bigger lens to it as well.I'm able to connect the dots to everyone, whether you're watching it, whether you are the one making the content and really simplifying it and not just making, I think a lot of when I would watch marketing videos and stuff, it would be a lot of broy ad talk, which that's important talk too, but I never really related to the AB and that kind of stuff. I liked being like, this is why this person watched it. So anyways, I think that if it is an actor or musician following me, I think some of it is just curiosity. I don't think they always have the intention of using my videos as strategy, but when they do, I think it's because as working in entertainment, it really is an attention economy, and the way that people give their attention is constantly shifting. You could make the best piece of work and you just never know if the attention's going to be there or not. I think them watching my helps maybe dissect why certain things go viral, but again, you never know. You never really know. It's just always up in the air. But I try to bring sense to it.Michael Jamin:It changes. Everything changes so fast. Whatever the algorithm, whatever the new trend, whatever's going on, changes fast. And I feel like you always seem to be on top of it. How are you on top? Are you just watching videos all day and making lists and stuff? What are you doing?Coco Mocoe:Yes. It's so funny. I get that question all the time. I do spend a good amount of time on TikTok. I try not to because I think sometimes I believe in there's this saying, and it's the universe whispers, and it's essentially this idea that once you finally turn off your phone and the TV and the for you page scrolling and you just sit in silence for a little bit, that's when the ideas will come to you. So I do try to take moments away from my phone, but I would say for me, I do spend a lot of time on my phone and watching the algorithm, but I try to be strategic about it, and I do have notes on my phone. I'm constantly writing down ideas, and this sounds really woo woo, but sometimes my most viral ideas actually come to me in if I'm sleeping or something. I think it's this weird moment where it's all the information I've received throughout the day finally comes into me and I absorb it in a way, and then I wake up and I'll film a video. That's why I always film right first thing in the morning. And those are sometimes my most viral videos. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Well, a couple questions for you. So now when I first got on TikTok, okay, I got a lot of followers. I'm like, well, why do I have all these? What's the point of followers? When your reach is so low, why do they give you that metric? If you have half a million followers and on any given day, 10, 20,000 will see your content,Coco Mocoe:That happens to me and I have an algorithm answer for that. And then I also have something that helps me when I'm making videos that happens to even the biggest creators. But one way that I still feel inspired to make content and don't get down on myself when that happens is I think the creator, Chris Olson said it. He's a pretty big talker. And one time he said, yeah, 300 views feels really low for the first hour of a video being up. But imagine if you were in a lecture hall and 300 people walked in, that would be a really exciting feeling. You'd be nervous to speak to that many people. And even if I get three or five comments the first few hours, I think, well, I just gave a lecture, and that essentially is three people came up to me after and wanted to ask me more questions about it.So that's one way I try to still think that I'm adding value. And I feel like the biggest thing I hear from whether it's creators, celebrities, or brands, is, and it happens to everyone. So it's a universal experience, especially on TikTok. They always say, I feel like the algorithm hates me now. I feel like I'm shadow banned. And I agree. I think that things like that happen on the algorithm. What I think happens sometimes, I wonder if TikTok will inflate numbers every now and then where I'm like, I don't know if I actually got that many views, or it's almost like a lottery. I think that they gamified creating content in a way that almost feels like gambling, where you're rewarded for doing it more and more. But then it also can be exhausting and disorienting. And I think one thing that I've noticed sometimes happens is that one, people consume videos on their for you page and not always their following.I don't really know a lot of people that use the following tab to watch videos. So TikTok is so weird. I could follow a creator and never see one of their videos again. Yeah, it's just, it rewards people for finding new creators every day. But one more logistical piece of advice that I've heard and that I theorize, I don't know. I say it's like a Tin hat theory about the algorithm, but I think that TikTok, there's a human element to it, and they specifically push out certain trends or certain things happening in the news, and then when they're ready to shift to a new trend, whether it's because they have brands that want to promote something on their app or whatever it is, they will not necessarily shadow ban certain creators, but they shadow ban certain hashtags. That's just a theory I have. What often happens when I talk to people when they're experiencing it is I'll tell them to pull back on all of their hashtags, don't use any hashtags, and sometimes that will subvert any, it takes a while.But yeah, so basically what I'm saying is when it does feel like the algorithm hates you, it's usually not just you, it's just that the topic that you're talking about, they feel like it no longer is relevant for whatever reason, and they're shifting to something new. And again, also at TikTok, it's always about reinventing, even though I always talk about marketing, but I feel like every three months I have to find a new way to present the same information that I've been talking about. So truly, the best creators are the ones that are able to reinvent themselves, even though they're still providing the same information, but finding new ways to bring it to the feed. If TikTok is enjoying videos that are longer than a minute, making videos that are longer than a minute, if TikTok is preferring green screen videos going into green screen. So it really is kind of this tango that you play, butMichael Jamin:Ultimately it seems like, I'm sorry, like a vanity metric that they give you, which doesn't do any, okay, so why are you telling me this number?Coco Mocoe:Exactly. I 100% agree, and it's why I think it's great. You have your podcast, and I've heard you on other podcasts when I was looking up things about the strike, I remember listening to you as a guest on podcasts, and that's why I always encourage people, do not let TikTok be your number one. That can be your Trojan horse. It can get you exposure, and it can get you into the room that you want to be in, but it is not sustainable. TikTok is so finicky one day it'll love you. The next three months, it'll hate you. So really having things outside of TikTok that your audience, I always say have a home base outside of TikTok, so a podcast or whatever it is. So yeah, I totally rambled. I'm sorry, but I get that question a lot. Yeah, it's a good question.Michael Jamin:The whole thing. I also have a feeling after being on the app for so long that the number of serious content creators who post every day, for some reason, I feel like it's a much smaller, they won't tell you how many is, but it feels like it's a much smaller number than you might think it is. Do you feel that way?Coco Mocoe:Yeah. Are you saying you feel like there's less people posting than you would think or,Michael Jamin:Yeah, but seriously, every day who were like, okay, I'm committing to do it. Some people are just, alright, here's a silly video of me eating ice cream, and then they won't post again for another 10 months or whatever. But for the people who really trying to build a platform, I feel like that number is actually maybe lower than you'd think.Coco Mocoe:Yeah. So yeah, I think what it is is a lot of people, it's very, I think TikTok is really great in that it's one of the first ever apps I've seen where so many people have gone viral and reached audiences that we would've never thought of. I have found so many new creators on TikTok, whereas on YouTube, I'd find a new creators I was excited about maybe once every three months. But I think what it is is like, yeah, sustaining that is so hard. I think that what happens is people often, most origin stories on TikTok are, some people will go into it strategically, but the video that really blows up and puts them on the map, they never would've guessed it would've been that video or why it was that video. They never really know. And so I think that some people just don't have, they get excited, but they can't necessarily sustain it.And that's why I always think that the creators that have a slow burn are the ones who end up being the most successful in the long run. I'm sure that's even something that kind of in some ways applies to the entertainment industry, but I always think of the biggest creator in the world right now is Mr. Beast. And it took him five years to hit his first 100,000 followers, but I think that that length of time is why when he did finally get lucky, he had the daily habits and the muscle and the mental stamina to withstand that attention. Whereas some creators will have this stroke of luck, and then the moment the algorithm is no longer rewarding them in a month or two, they kind of freak out and just abandon it. Or they'll only post once every few weeks because they're ashamed that they aren't getting the numbers that they were. But it's just so normal. It's just the biggest creators.Michael Jamin:But to what end is all this, why is everyone doing this? Is it, I mean, I can see why you do it. You have a business now, but why is everyone else doing this?Coco Mocoe:I think it's two things. I think one, TikTok made it really easy to post. The barrier to entry is very low. And on YouTube, if you really wanted to go viral on YouTube five years ago, it would've taken understanding, editing to some degree, understanding how to upload certain files to your computer. I mean, those things are so hard. It would've taken the knowledge of figuring out how to make thumbnails. And the barrier to entry was just so high for platforms like YouTube, TikTok made it really easy that anyone could go viral. And I think the why, what's to what end? I think the people that have a kind of north star outside of TikTok are the ones that are successful, the ones that have something they're striving. For me, I feel like my best videos don't come from me saying, I want to go viral today.They come from me saying something like, oh, I have this hour long interview that I did, and I want to feed people to that. Let me just make a video, giving them the best moment. And so I think that the why version, what's the bigger thing? We're striving for every creator. It's different, but if you are only striving for TikTok fame, it's so fleeting. And that's never, again, I say TikTok, it's like the Trojan horse. It's just going to get you in the room, but it's not going to do the talking for you. It's not going to make the business deals. It just gets you in a room that you might not have been in otherwise.Michael Jamin:And so what are the rooms, do you think it's people are trying to become actors, so they're trying to blow up, whatever, I'm goofy here now, put in your TV show. Is that what it is?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I mean, it could be. I guess everyone's different. I know. I think there's this one guy, I don't know if you saw it, I think a year or two ago, and he made videos. He made comedic videos, and he made one video about wanting to be on SNL, and the internet was really hard on him, and I didn't feel like I see that it was fair. Yeah. I was like, okay, this is someone shooting their shot. Good for him. He didn't put anyone down in the process. He didn't step on anyone. It was a video that took obviously planning and thought. And I think also maybe he reposted it recently and that's why it's at top of mind and it's going viral again, but now there's a positive sentiment around it. So I do think that, and to answer your question, I do think that specifically for actors, there's a Pandora's box with TikTok because it does get you in a room.And I could be wrong. I feel like you probably know more about this than me, but I feel like with actors, they have to be very strategically pulled back. They don't want to reveal too much about themselves personally because it could hurt them in terms of being typecast or getting into character, I think could be harmed. If people are like, oh, I remember them making a TikTok where they failed at making iced coffee one day and it spilled all over their dog. No one will ever take them seriously. So I think actors, it's a little tricky. It's like a Pandora's box. They go viral, but it's really hard for that to be taken seriously, I think, by audiences sometimes, but I do think some will be able to do it.Michael Jamin:Is that your theory, or are you hearing this from actors from creators who tried to break it and are getting that feedback?Coco Mocoe:I mean, no, I guess for me, it really is more of a theory and just me watching one of the really big comedic talkers who was on TikTok for years, and she doesn't do it as much anymore, but her name's Brittany Broski. I don't know if you've heard of her. No. She was pretty big. She had a few memes that went viral, and she has millions of followers, but I think she would make a really great SNL cast member. I think that she's really funny and smart, and I could see that in the cards for her one day. But right now she's just doing a podcast as herself and not just doing, I mean, that's huge. But I think that she's one of the bigger creators that I think of in terms of being an actor on TikTok. And I don't know that we've seen someone be able to translate that to a big role yet. I think we will. We just haven't seen it yet, because there is this weird dynamic between the audience and the actor that other influencers don't really have to worry about.Michael Jamin:Well, I wish I knew the name. There's someone named Nurse Blake. You heard of him? No. Okay. Because a comedian, but a nurse, he sells out venues doing I guess comedy, but he's also a nurse. I'm like, I don't understand if you're selling out these giant venue news, what's with this other gig you got? So I just don't get it. I don't get any of it.Coco Mocoe:Well, and what's funny, the thing about what you just explained is really fascinating to me, and it's something I talked about last year where I coined it the rise of the anti influencer, but essentially him having something like another job, whether that's still happening or not, I think audiences are drawn to that because they feel like there's less pressure on them if the influencer doesn't succeed. It's like, well, they have another job, and so they actually are more likely to be open to the person. So oddly, I think having that kind of double life in a way lends to an audience feeling less pressure. And that did make me remember that in terms of the comedic route and acting and stuff, there was one standup comedian, his name's Matt Rife.Michael Jamin:Yes. And I just learned about him. So go on. I had never heard of him until go on.Coco Mocoe:And I think he's one of those people where it's like Mr. Beast, where he had been trying to do the standup comedy route for five or seven years, and he started just posting clips from his shows on TikTok, and he went on a tour last year, and he filmed a Netflix special that hasn't aired yet, but Forbes, he was on the Forbes top creator list, and they estimated that he had made 25 million last year.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I saw that article. I'm floored.Coco Mocoe:Yes. I don't know how they calculate. I don't know. But if it's even just 2.5 million, that's a crazy number for someone who was struggling as a standup comedian, began posting clips of it to TikTok and is now selling out venues, and it's crazy. It'sMichael Jamin:Mind blowing. And yeah, it's just a platform. And I give him a lot of credit. I mean, made himself, he willed it to be, but I mean, I guess, I don't know. I know you guys were talking, you and your podcasting party we're talking about, and what's the name of your pocket, by the way, so everyone canCoco Mocoe:Talk? Oh, yeah. So I have my main one, it's ahead of the curve with Coco Mocoe. That one's my solo one where I just talk to experts like yourself and stuff. And then I have a show with my friend, his name's Nikki Rearden, called Share Your Screen, where each week we dive into whatever's happening in the news or in marketing and talk about why we think certain things are going viral. So a lot of people that see the clips from my profile, it's usually the clips of me and Nikki. So I'm guessing that's whatMichael Jamin:It might've been. But you guys were talking about the newest trend, which is basically, I guess people like me sharing expertise in some kind of attempt to what,Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I mean, I think experts are what make TikTok my favorite app because it takes people who maybe didn't have time or the career background to study, again, film theory and cameras and microphones and how to sync up audio and all these things, but they're able to make really good videos because of the TikTok editing software within the app. And yeah, I mean, I used this saying on TikTok where it's called the niche, here you go, the Quicker You Grow. It's a saying that I came up with when I was at buzzfeed, and I would say in every meeting. And what I meant by that is people have this misconception that in order to go viral, you have to hit the masses. You have to make a cool football moment and also tap dance and also paraglide and tell a funny joke all in 30 seconds in the same video. And I am like, that's not really how it works. The best videos are very niche, and that's kind of why experts grow on the app. You are known as the Hollywood writer, and I think I was telling one of my friends that I was going on your pod, and when I said that they knew exactly who you were. And it's just that thing where it's like you would rather be known for, or another way I say it is you want to be great at one thing on social media, then be average at everything. But ifMichael Jamin:You're 20 years old, what are you great at?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, and I think that's a great question. That's why, and I don't think 20 year olds are people that are still, even people in their midlife or older don't always have to start their account and just stick to one thing. I think part of social media is exploring different parts of your identity and seeing what people to respond to. So I think that's why we do see a lot of the younger kids online are more lifestyle influencers. Their day is, I mean, I'm 27 now. When I was between the ages of 19 and 23, I felt like my life something different changed every single day. And it was interesting. But if I did lifestyle content, now my life is very normal and stable that I always say, I'm like, I'm not interesting. The things I talk about are interesting. So that's why I think there's a lot of lifestyle creators that are younger. Their life is constantly changing as it does when you're in your early twenties. But TikTok is really where I feel like we've seen older people in midlife. And on the other apps on Instagram, I felt like you had to be an 18 year old model traveling the world to be interesting to the algorithm. And it's not like that on TikTok. And I would say YouTube's similar to TikTok in that way too. ButMichael Jamin:Yeah, I don't know. I can't grow on YouTube. I could do well, this platform on TikTok, but Oh, I had a question. No, I lost it. Can you believe I lost it? No, you're good. Yeah. Well, now we'll have to take a pause as I try to remember what I was going to say, but Oh, yeah, no, I know what I was going to say. So you are in an interesting position in that you share your expertise on this, on becoming, I don't know, a creator or an influencer and all that, but you also do that. So talk a little bit about that. When you post, okay, you know what you're going to say to help, this is the trend you're spotting, or this is who's blowing up. You want to talk, but you also have to make a video where you are performing where you are. You're not just sharing your knowledge, you are a creator as well.Coco Mocoe:I know it's kind of meta. It's meta. Now we've entered the age of social media where creators are making platforms, talking about being a creator. I mean, yeah, I guess for me, I am really lucky that my audience likes when I talk about those things, and I don't have to necessarily divulge a bunch of information about my personal life and stuff. I think some creators do get into a predicament where their whole brand is built on their relationship, and then maybe their relationship ends, unfortunately, and they have to rebrand. And so I'm very lucky that my audience just likes when I talk about what's happening. And it's funny because when I started talking about these things, I didn't actually think that people really cared. Crazy story is when I first started my TikTok and some of my followers found me through, this is, it sounds so woo, but I actually, I did tarot.Me and my friends do tarot for fun, and I would make a few tarot videos, and they went viral. And then I realized that there's 15 year olds making way better tarot videos than I ever could. I'm like, the world's going to be okay if these 15 year olds, they're doing their messages and it's great, and if that's what you believe in and you like that content, they've got it covered. And so I told my audience, I was like, okay, you guys. And I could tell the algorithm was shifting away from that, and it just wasn't exciting anymore. And I was a professional and it was just a hobby that I did, and I told my audience, I was like, I'm going to take a break from my TikTok and I think I'm going to come back to the internet. I think you guys are going to find me, but it's going to look different, and I don't know what that's going to be yet.And at the time, again, I was working at buzzfeed. I talked about these things in my nine to five, and I always thought it was, I loved it, but I thought it would be boring to other people, like the whole marketing, the trends, the algorithm. I thought that that was having an accountant talk about math. Then I took a break from my account for a little bit. I would make every videos every now then, but then one day before a meeting, I had five minutes and I made a video that was a trend prediction, and it got I think 4 million views in two days. And within a week, I was getting booked to go speak at Adweek in New York and all of these crazy doors opened. And so it was funny that for me, I always was doing marketing, and I just never thought until I made that video randomly that anyone actually cared about that. But I guess a lot of people did. And I'm very lucky that a lot of people did. And I have been riding the wave ever since. And I feel like as long as there's new trends and new people getting viral and new things happening online, I'll always have something new to talk about, and I'll never get bored.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com. And now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?I have rules that I played by how many days, how many times a day will you post and how many days a week? Because it can get out of hand. It can get so much where you are working for the app now.Coco Mocoe:Yes, there are days where I'll post a lot and there's days where I just won't do anything. I mean, it really depends on my schedule. Each day when I was first starting and just doing green screen videos with my trend predictions and algorithm things, I would probably film two or three a day. But now also that TikTok rewards longer content. I don't know if you do that minute or longer type videos. Oh,Michael Jamin:I do. It's always at least three minutes. Yeah.Coco Mocoe:Yes. And are you in the creativity beta program?Michael Jamin:No. No. I want to talk about that.Coco Mocoe:Okay.Michael Jamin:Well, good. Hang on to that.Coco Mocoe:Okay, good, good, good. Now, TikTok has the beta program, which I'm in, and when I know that's not going to last forever, but when I got my first check from that, I was like, oh, that's a good chunk of money. Now, when I do film videos, it really is my job. I see. Every time I film a video that's a minute or longer, I'm like, okay, that is a certain amount of money that I could make. But I will say probably on average I'll post three to five videos depending on my mood, and then I'll usually take a day or two off and I'll film in studio or something. So it really just depends. But I think that now that I've grown a little bit, I do think I do more quality over quantity, whereas the first few months where I really blew up doing this kind of thing, I was posting a lot. I was riding the wave. And now that I think I have credibility and a few really good videos under my belt, I can do a little bit less and people will pay attention and seek out my content. Now, are youMichael Jamin:Worried though, that being the creator studio will limit? This is for those who don't know, this is when TikTok will pay you. You post a video and they pay you depending on how views you have. Are you worried that it'll limit your views, your reach?Coco Mocoe:So that's a great question because, and again, tin Hat theory, I don't know, but for those of you guys who were on the app a couple of years ago, they had this thing called the Creator Fund. And I ran experiments on accounts at my, and through creators I worked with at my old job where we would enroll into the creator fund. And let's say they were getting on average 5 million views a month, and we would enroll into the creator fund and their views would drop to a hundred thousand a month, and they couldn't get a video with over 2000 views. And I personally think it was TikTok was capping the money because they were pulling the money out of thin air. They didn't have ads on the platform didn't, it's not like YouTube where it's ad sent, so it's not out of YouTube's pocket. It's like Google paid Red Bull paid to put an ad on a Mr. Beast video for 30 seconds, and YouTube's not paying that money. But TikTok, I think, capped people's views, in my opinion. I don't know, because they were realizing they had to pull this money out of thin air.The beta program that is happening now, I don't know. I know some creators have had problems. I feel like my videos actually perform better now that I'm in it. I don't know the math behind it. I don't know if it's because TikTok is running more ads on the platform that they can afford it. I will say that I think that TikTok is gearing up to lean into longer, longer content. I know on their website, they've been testing podcast beta features like I'm nosy, and I go on the TikTok website and I'll just look at little buttons and stuff, what I had to do for my old job, and I can see them rolling out this podcast button, and then they took it down, and then they'll put it back up. And I think they're getting ready to roll that out. So I don't know, but I do think that at least my own experience, the beta program has been great for me financially. I don't think it's going to last.Michael Jamin:Why do you say that? Why won't it last forever?Coco Mocoe:I don't know. I think that I never put any of my eggs in any financial basket as a full-time creator. Now, you never know. And also, one day I could wake up and people could just find my videos not interesting anymore. That's always something that's in the back of my mind, and I have to be okay with that. So,Michael Jamin:Because I wasn't sure if they call it a beta account because it is beta, they're going to change it.Coco Mocoe:Oh, yeah. Because called the creativity beta program, and I think it's maybe only certain creators can be a part of it or something. You have to have 10,000 followers. So yeah, I don't know. At least for me, the last, I think I enrolled in June, and I think we're not allowed to share the exact amounts in the terms of service. But I'll just say it was more than my monthly salary at my full-time job. And I was like, okay, cool.Michael Jamin:But you really have to have videos that go viralCoco Mocoe:Pretty good.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, I have a big following. You never know. Yeah, it might be 20,000 due on a video, and that might be that way for two weeks. So I don't think, it doesn't sound like a get rich quick scheme for me. I don't know.Coco Mocoe:Yeah, no, I always say it's just you never want to put all your eggs in one basket with social media. A platform could be gone tomorrow. You never know, really. I always say you just always want to have that kind of North star. You just want to use social media again as that Trojan horse, but always have other things in the back of your mind, which I was honestly curious about you. I know there's the strike and stuff, but do you feel like having your TikTok, do you think it's helped open doors for you in your career year?Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, originally I started it, and I want to get your advice on this. I started it because I wrote a book and my agent said, platform drives acquisition. I said, well, what does that mean? He says, you need to have a social media following to sell it. And in the field in personal essays, which is because if you like David Sera, it's like that. So my goal, and which I've already done, is I written the book, it'll go on sale probably in a couple months, and then I've been performing with it. I've been touring with a little bit with it to sell tickets, my poster of me. So I didn't want to, so that was the whole goal was just to write a book and then tour with it and a show that I do. And so the reason I didn't want to get into the beta program, I was like, well, let's not lose sight of what the goal is. I don't want to do anything that's going to jeopardize that. It's really about selling a book and then touring with it. But what advice do you have for me regarding that?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, no, I mean, one, I would say for books specifically, two, I feel like oddly, I mean, I'm not even really on Meadow or Facebook like that, but there's certain communities. I had someone, a relative that wrote a book once, and it was in their specific profession, and I was like, you should join Facebook pages about that profession. But of course, there's certain things where you can't promote. But no, I guess in terms of promoting your book specifically, one, I think that if you are going on tour, of course the posting clips from being on stage for whatever reason, people just love those. I feel like that's low hanging fruit advice, though. I would say just, I can send you a guy's profile after this if I follow him out to find it. But he is an author and he will just read quotes from his book, and some of the clips go viral.He literally just will read a part of it. And maybe even, I don't know if you live stream a lot like TikTok live sometimes just the type of audience that watches a live, it's a lot of work. So I don't think it's for everyone, and it's not for all the time, but the type of person who seeks out a TikTok live, they're very loyal. They sometimes have not in a bad way, they just have a lot of time on their hands. They're more likely to be early adopters of whatever the creator's doing. So I know that's kind of all surface level advice, but I guess, so you have a new book coming out? Is that what it is? Or,Michael Jamin:Well, my first book, yeah, because a TV writer, first book. This is my first book.Coco Mocoe:Okay. You've been on TikTok for, I think I found you aMichael Jamin:Year. It's probably been two years now.Coco Mocoe:Okay. Yeah. I feel like I found you a year ago, so it's, I'm guessing you've just been building it up. I mean, yeah, I wish I had better advice. I think I'd have to know more too. That's why I'm excited. I'd love to read your book and then have you on my pod. I just did that with, yeah, I love reading. I've had two guests on now where I've read their book, and I feel like it really helps me with questions. And again, my thing is you just never know what's going to go viral. You never know what's going to work. I feel like it's just throwing things at the wall.Michael Jamin:I was curious if you've known anybody who's done what I'm doing, and I don't know if there is anyone, which is fine. I know. I'm glad to be the first one.Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I mean, I can't think of anyone. I do know that when I was talking to Taylor Lauren, she's a journalist that just put out a book, and she was saying that pre-sales weirdly count for so much money. So definitely, of course, ramping up. And also, I will say, oddly, I feel like because a writer, you would have a cool idea around this eventually if you slept on it. But whether it's marketing for music or shows, one of the best strategies that I've seen across the board is people love feeling like they're in on a secret or something they're not supposed to know yet. Saying something like, there's this book that hasn't come out yet, but I got my hands on it and tell me what you guys think of this quote. Or people love the idea of, this hasn't come out yet, but I'm giving you a little tidbit, or making it kind of mysterious. And then being like, there is a link to, if you are curious about the pre-sale, things like that, people love feeling like, oh, I wasn't supposed to know this, or I wasn't, like, this isn't out to the public yet. So anytime something can feel mysterious or you're doing them a favor by revealing something that isn't out there yet, oddly, that always works across the board.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I discovered a couple of days ago, because the book hasn't even dropped yet, that I was on Amazon. I typed Michael Jamin into Amazon, and Michael Jamin book came up as a search term. So people are looking for it, and I haven't even announced it yet. So that's cool.Coco Mocoe:Wow. Yeah. And I know that makes me think of SEO, how you could lean into that SEO kind of thing. And sorry, do you have the name for rubric or are you allowed toMichael Jamin:Reveal it? Yeah, it's a paper orchestra and I don't have, well, here's this that has too much of a glare on it, but this is not the cover of the book. This is the cover ofCoco Mocoe:My show.Michael Jamin:This is the cover of my show, and it's just like it's a typewriter, whatever it's me coming out of. But yeah, so it's very, yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm doing this all, let's just try it. I don't really know what I'm doing reallyCoco Mocoe:Well. And if it makes you feel better, even the biggest people in the world that have entire teams around them, they don't really know what they're doing either. Again, the internet changes constantly. No one really knows. And I think that the people that really do succeed, one, it's a stroke of luck, and two, it's just showing up until the algorithm decides to what you're doing, knowing what your message is, but still always being able to tweak it or be flexible if you feel like a certain delivery isn't working, if talking straight to camera hasn't been hitting, being willing to do a green screen or walking while holding your phone because Gen Z for some reason, loves when people are moving while talking and just,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there are some people, there's two creators. I follow celebrity book club, and these two, you know them. Okay,Coco Mocoe:Love them.Michael Jamin:So they just read memoirs that people put out and they talk about it, and that's it. And they're able to travel and sell tickets in various cities, which are good for you. ICoco Mocoe:Mean, I know. Yeah. And if you think about it with them, part of why it's so cool is they're providing so much value to the audience because not everyone is a reader. Or sometimes people will buy memoirs, but they won't read them for whatever reason, they'll save it, and they're kind of doing this SparkNotes thing. But I just love their pod. I saw they just had Julia Fox on, and I made a video on my profile where I'm like, Julia Fox, if you're ever in la, I'd love to have you. But yeah, and I've listened to a few episodes. I think they for years, did a couple different podcasts. And finally, this is just the one that stuck. So it really is just consistency. You just never know what format's going to be the one to really put you on the map.Michael Jamin:It's odd because I will start traveling with it, but I'm big in maybe four or five cities according to my analytics. Wow. But I'm not sure if I can sell tickets in any other city other than the ones that I'm big in. So I don't know.Coco Mocoe:And when you do start going to shows, just for whatever reason, TikTok just loves when people post clips from their shows. I think part of Matt Rife's whole thing and why he made, according to Forbes 25 million through ticket sales. But he would post a lot. And I mean, I think the gimmick is sometimes overdone a little bit, but his audience interactions, again, not for everyone, but I think that people started buying tickets to his shows in the hopes of being a part of his next viral TikTok. Yes. It kind of broke the fourth wall, and it incentivized people to go to his shows because they wanted to be the one that was a part of his next viral video because he had an interaction with them in the audience. So I think he kind of cracked a code, or sorry. Yeah, he cracked this viral code where there was now an incentive for people to actually physically show up and watch him. That'sMichael Jamin:So interesting. But was he doing crowd work? Was he talking to the audience or was it something else? Was it comedy that he was doing?Coco Mocoe:No, I think it was. I think he does also just post his comedy clips, but for whatever reason, his crowd work goes so viral. And I mean, again, I do think sometimes it does get old. You can tell so many. And I mean, I'm not hating shtick. I think it's cool, but maybe because what I do for a living and I just study these things, I feel like I can tell when comedians come up on my feed now and they're kind of trying to recreate that. It's like a trend. They're trying to be trendy and recreate that success. And some it works, some it doesn't. But yeah, he kind of incentivized people to come to the show, then they'd be a part of his videos.Michael Jamin:Interesting. And that's hitting on something else, which is it doesn't seem like actors, people, actors who are already famous, they don't seem to do well, or am I wrong about thatCoco Mocoe:On TikTok? No, I think you're right. I actually talked with Molly about this today and why specifically a-list? Celebrities seem to kind of struggle, I think, on TikTok. And one, I also think, even though my whole thing is I give advice on how to grow on apps like TikTok, I'm like, not everyone needs to be on TikTok. It's okay. It's not for everyone. I think some bigger celebrities benefit from being mysterious and not really being on social media, but the ones that do try, I think sometimes there is this feeling of detachment where when you're so big and you have a big team around you, by the time you come up with an idea, you get it approved, you go through whatever they, the label, the this, the that. And then you post the video. The trend is already two weeks old. So the people that are really quick on their feet that are a little bit more scrappy are the ones who I think thrive on apps like TikTok, because TikTok just moves so quick. I don't think, butMichael Jamin:That's the thing, I, I've never once done a trend and I don't think I ever will.Coco Mocoe:And what's so funny, I'm the same exact way. And it's funny that I talk about trends you'll never see. I did one it at the YouTube studio, the two girl, but you'll never see me doing trending audios. And it's so funny that I talk about trends, but my belief is that really the people that thrive don't pay attention to trends at all. I always say the opposite of trendy is timeless. And if you tie yourself to a trend and that becomes your identity, when that audio or that trend isn't big in two or three weeks from now, you're done. But I love creator. I think that's why experts really thrive on TikTok because they're providing so much value that they don't really have to rely on gimmicks and trends to be relevant. Or even if they're not relevant, they're providing value that people are going to seek out and eventually find them.Yeah. So yeah, I am the same way. I don't really believe in, my biggest pet peeve is when I would go into consulting meetings with huge brands and they're like, what trending audio should we lip sync to? I'm like, you shouldn't think like that. Also, FTC guidelines, technically you can't because of legal problems. But I just think that, I always say going viral is that's a low goal. I think it aiming low as a goal. You should think of being bigger than virality. You should think of providing so much value that it doesn't matter whether you're focused on trends or not. You live longer than that online.Michael Jamin:I'm skipping around here, but years ago, not even that many years ago, I was on a TV show, I dunno, less than 10, maybe eight years ago. And we needed to cast a role. We went for an actor, and the studio wanted us to go out to someone who had a big social media following. That's who they wanted to cast. So we found this guy, this kid with a big following. We were going to pay him a lot of money per episode, and he kept on turning it down because he was making more money posting Instagram than he was whenever that was. It was like 20,000 in an episode or something. It wasn't worth his time.Coco Mocoe:Yeah. I mean, yes. That's interesting. That does make me think. I talked recently to this really big agent. He manages the Emilios, his name is Greg Goodfried, and something he said to me was the reason that the Emilio signed to him when they were looking for every agent in the game was cutthroat going for the Emilios. I remember this, I was filming videos with them at the time when they were coming into the office, and they were behind the scenes, I think, figuring out who they were going to sign with. And what Greg said to them was, it's not about what you do, it's about what you don't do, and you're going to get so many offers. But in terms of the show that you were saying, one, I'm also guessing that if he felt like he didn't have the acting chops, I don't know if that's what it was, the money would not be worth how it could potentially affect his career. I don't know if he was going into acting, he might've felt that yes, it was money, but if he felt like he wasn't prepared yet, again, if you're not a classically, acting is hard.Michael Jamin:He was actually a pretty good actor. Maybe he thought that the show was going to put a stink on him. Maybe being associated with the show would've hurt his Instagram maybe, orCoco Mocoe:I mean, yeah. And there's just so many factors. He also maybe could have just been making so much money that it was just not social media. And the money on social media happens in such short spurts. You never know when a well is going to dry up. On YouTube, years ago, there was this apocalypse where people were making $300,000 a month, and then it dropped to $5,000 a month, and all these craters were scrambling. So you never know. And so I think some people, when they hit a stride, they don't want to get detracted from that. But I also think sometimes it's good to not always worry about money and think about the bigger picture. I mean, I just turned down a pretty big deal because I was like, it just didn't make sense for me, and I really had to trust that I know the bigger picture here. And even if I'm making less money in the next six months, that I know that down the line, the vision will be bigger than what I would've ever made.Michael Jamin:Well, that's a good segue. So two things. Are you represented by an agent?Coco Mocoe:I guess it's like a talent manager. I know agents are a little different, but Alright.Michael Jamin:So managers to, what is your larger picture, as you mentioned?Coco Mocoe:Yeah, I am flexible. I don't always know. I always say I don't really want to be in the public eye for long. I think a couple of years. And then I mean you, I'd love to write a book. I would love if I could write a book. And then I think long-term, I'll probably be what I'm doing now. And part of why I signed with the specific agent that I have now is when I was blowing up and I was getting a few offers, what he said to me was, you don't even really have to do a ton of brand deals. I think that you don't even have to gain another follower, but you could have a great career being a speaker and going to events. And that's really panned out. So I think maybe doing something like that, speaking engagements. I love my podcast. I could see that going for another five to 10 years if I'm lucky. You never know. But ultimately I would love to just write a book and then write off into the sunset. But I know it's not that easy. So I don't know. I will say though, I don't really like being a public figure. Again. I say I don't really think I'm that interesting. I think what I talk about is interesting. So I'd love to eventually pull back one day.Michael Jamin:So is this agent or manager, is that what they do for you to get you public speaking gigs? Is that what they, their goal?Coco Mocoe:Yeah. Yeah, all of it. So they do speaking engagements. I went to Adweek in New York. I went to Cannes Lion in France this summer. It was so great. And then brand deals, they're my day-to-day manager. So I meet with them and his team and constantly texting and emailing. And they also help me facilitate my consulting and stuff. I hate dealing with the conversations around money and contracts, and they're ones that step in and do all of that for me. And then I just show up for the meetings and give them my advice, and then that's all I have to deal with.Michael Jamin:And so what is it about, this will wrap it up, because this is a big question though. Being in the public eye, especially on TikTok, especially putting yourself vulnerable out there. They're haters, they're lunatics. Is this part of the problem?Coco Mocoe:I mean, sometimes, yeah. I've even recently just started replying to a few comments just because I want people to know that there's a real human, when you tell someone to go off themselves, there's an actual, I think people, it's crazy. I think that people see a video and it's hard for them to think that this isn't a one dimensional cardboard cutout. This is a real person. So yeah, I mean, sometimes it is the comments, the negativity. I think that ultimately though, if you know who you are that will shine through, you'll have mistakes and you'll have missteps and you'll have moments. But if you know kind of who you are and where you're headed, you'll always be okay. But I think more so for me, it's that I am really a big believer that going viral online can be a type of trauma. It can open up a lot of doors, but I think that it's really something that not a lot of people are prepared for.I think we see it with bigger celebrities that get famous young, the notion that sometimes fame is a type of trauma, yet everyone wants it. And so I think that being visible, no one, our human brains haven't evolved to processing, being seen by 20,000 people a day. We were used to having the 10 people in our little community in the middle of nowhere, and it's different. So I think there's just no understanding or process yet for really knowing what's happening. And it's traumatic and it can be scary. I mean, I love it. I think I'm good at tuning it out. I think it's so much better when you get famous or you get a viral moment when you're older. I think that I'm sure for us it's a little bit easier. I couldn't imagine being 16 and your frontal cortex is still developing. Well,Michael Jamin:What happened when you responded to that person said, Hey, I'm a real person. Did you get the response that you were hoping to get?Coco Mocoe:I mean, yeah. The best is when they delete the comment, just like I think they realized, but it's not even for the person who even left the comment. I more so do it too every, and not all the time I don't read. I got really good advice from a creator once. They said, once your video's been up for an hour or two, don't read the comments because it's not really going to be the people. You're on the for you page when you get your first hate comment. But I guess it's also just me kind of sending the message to other people that are leaving me comments, that I'm reading them and I see them. It's just always an effort to humanize myself. But I mean, it's hard. I feel like there's no right or wrong way. I think that the most successful people are the ones that just don't really care. And I envy that about some people. They just don't. I'm like, wow, that's so cool.Michael Jamin:Even for me, it affects me. So that's why I don't even the problems, I won't respond. Someone left a comment once a year ago or whatever, they left a question and then someone else commented, oh, don't bother asking this guy a question. He only responds to haters. And I thought, that's what I'm doing. I go, that's what I'm doing. And the person was right. I was only responding. I was rewarding the idiots. And so after that, I go, well, now I'm done. I'm not responding to anybody unless it's in a post. I'm not responding to anyone.Coco Mocoe:Oh, yeah. I mean, I really try the first hour to respond to a lot of the positive comments or if people are making, if they have good questions. And also if someone has a valid critique of my video, sometimes I'm not always going to get it right. And that's okay. And I'll reply. Thank you. You're right. I get that point too. So for me, I do try to, again, I think of it as that lecture hall where the first few people that are really reaching out and leaving thoughtful comments, it's someone who is like, you're in the lecture and they raise their hand, or they're a student who came up and they were so excited about what you were saying that they wanted to have that moment with you. And I mean, I think I'm really lucky though, in that I think my following is really, really intelligent. I think that the people that follow me are really thoughtful, and I'm very lucky that there's usually very thoughtful discussions in my comments as well.Michael Jamin:But see, I struggle with that. I was like, am I supposed to be accessible or not accessible? Who am I supposed to be on this?Coco Mocoe:And there's no, there's no yes or no answer. Some days you'll be more accessible and some days, some months, whatever you'll pull back. I think just really taking it based on your mood or where you're at. I think the biggest misconception I see with public figures and also creators is they feel like they have to make a decision, and then that's who they are. I get that a lot with authenticity and what do I reveal about myself and am I revealing too much? Am I not revealing enough? And I'm like, you don't have to make that decision in a boardroom one day. One day you're going to be more vulnerable. One day you're going to be, no one can find you. You're off the grid.Michael Jamin:But I don't know, the common knowledge is you're supposed to respond for the algorithm. But then I was like, if I'm working for the algorithm doing this, I'm out. The minute I start working the algorithm, I don't want to do it anymore.Coco Mocoe:And that's a very fair game. I totally get that sentiment. I know you'd said it earlier too, which is at what point are we just free employees to TikTok? And I agree, and that's why I think that the only way it really is beneficial is if you're always, again, there's just something bigger that you're striving for than TikTok, like feeding people to a podcast. And again, you don't want to always ask people to go and do something. There's a rule in marketing, it's called the 80 20 rule where 80% of your content should just be adding value, and then 20% is asking people to go buy a book or go to your pod. But yeah, I guess there's no right or wrong answer.Michael Jamin:I think there's something as we wrap it up, I think there's something smart that I learned. I think you said it, I'm trying to remember. I'm pretty sure you said it, and we'll talk a little bit about this. It was about, I think you, I'm sorry if it wasn't you. It was like you read some study that said part of what's the appeal of social media today is that people see you and it's this frequency with which they see you and then they fall in love with there are programmed like who we see all the time.Coco Mocoe:Yes. So there's a book called Fan Chasm, and it was Yes. And they basically studied the science behind parasocial relationships, which again, that's a buzzword that I feel like people throw around, but we don't even really understand it completely yet. And yeah, that's essentially what they said. And I guess we'll end on that note, so fascinating, but that the humans, and again, I'm not a psychologist, not claiming to be just my interpretation of this book, they essentially theorized that humans were programmed to bond with the faces that we see most often because that depended on our survival. So back when we were in small communities hunting bears, you had to make sure that you bonded with the person who caught the bear or else you weren't going to eat that week. And so we do it even subconsciously, but what's happening now with the internet and media, and we saw it in the early rise of celebrities as well, but that there's a disconnect happening where we see Taylor Swift's face more than we see our own boss's face or

Welcome to Episode 1548, #Winetok: Why the clock is ticking on one of the world's greatest marketing tools and how you can cash in with Amanda McCrossin, moderated by Ilaria Felluga. This is the wine2wine Business Forum 2022 Series. The sessions are recorded and uploaded on Italian Wine Podcast. wine2wine Business Forum is an international wine business forum, held annually in Verona Italy since 2014. The event is a key reference point for wine producers and a diverse variety of wine professionals eager to develop and grow their wine business worldwide. About today' session: In the past year Amanda McCrossin has gone from having no TikTok presence to now over 150k followers in the wine niche. What was once a platform for kids, has now evolved into a billion-dollar marketing tool with an estimated 50+% of users now over the age of 30. The powerful TikTok suggesting algorithm has not only allowed her content to be seen, but be seen by the right audience. As a result, she has been able to not only help educate and demystify wine for a very wine-curious sector, but also move hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of wine through recommendations in her videos. But TikTok today is where Instagram was 5 years ago and while many brands from other sectors are beginning to recognize and even capitalize on the marketing power of the app, it is still very much a blue ocean for the wine world. The clock's ticking and those who take advantage in these nascent stages will be poised for success. More about today's speaker Amanda McCrossin is a certified sommelier, wine personality, and TikTok/Instagram/YouTube creator. As the former Sommelier & Wine Director at PRESS Restaurant in Napa Valley, Amanda worked with the world's largest, deepest restaurant collection of all Napa Valley wines in the world. During her time the wine program thrived; garnering nominations, accolades, and awards from nearly every major publication and outlet in food, wine, and hospitality. She has been featured by Food & Wine Magazine, Food Network, San Francisco Chronicle, on the cover of SOMM Journal and most recently by Wine Enthusiast who named her a Wine Star nominee for ‘Sommelier of the Year.' Today, Amanda is widely considered an expert in Napa Valley wine and regularly sought after for media appearances and speaking engagements including the Aspen Food & Wine Classic and Premiere Napa Valley. A Napa Valley resident, Amanda can be found creating daily content for her popular TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube channels – SommVivant – as well as hosting the Wine Access Unfiltered Podcast. Connect: Instagram: @sommvivant Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amccrossin Twitter: @sommvivant LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanda-mccrossin-0099684/ More about today's moderator Ilaria Felluga was born in Udine in 1995 and represents the sixth generation of a long winemaking dynasty, founded in the latter part of the 1800s in Isola d'Istria and then moved to Friuli Venezia Giulia. Ilaria graduated form the prestigious University of Viticulture and Enology in Udine. Today, following in the footsteps of her grandfather Marco and father Roberto, she leads the prestigious Marco Felluga – Russiz Superiore wine estates. Connect: Instagram: @ilariafelluga _______________________________ Let's keep in touch! Follow us on our social media channels: Instagram www.instagram.com/italianwinepodcast/ Facebook www.facebook.com/ItalianWinePodcast Twitter www.twitter.com/itawinepodcast Tiktok www.tiktok.com/@mammajumboshrimp LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/company/italianwinepodcast If you feel like helping us, donate here www.italianwinepodcast.com/donate-to-show/ Until next time, Cin Cin! Thanks for tuning in! Listen to more stories from the Italian Wine Community here on Italian Wine Podcast!

Welcome to The Ground Investigation Podcast, the show featuring interviews and insights from leaders in the geotechnical and geo-environmental business world.   In this episode, we are joined by Saskia Elliot, Geo-Environmental Consultant for Delta-Simons.   Sakia's academic journey began at University Birkbeck, where she pursued her bachelor's degree. But what sets her apart is her decision to continue her education at the same institution for her master's degree. In an era of endless choices, Sakia sheds light on why she opted for continuity and the rewarding experiences it brought her.   As we dive deeper, we explore Sakia's motivation for pursuing a master's degree. In a world where higher education's value is often debated, Sakia shares her insights into why she felt the need to take this academic step and how it has shaped her career.   For those contemplating the Master's dilemma, Sakia's hindsight offers invaluable wisdom. Was it truly worth it? Her reflections provide a candid look into the advantages and considerations of undertaking a master's degree.   Sakia's university journey was far from ordinary. Balancing multiple part-time roles alongside her studies, she unveils the secrets to time management and how her efforts paved the way for personal and professional growth.   Did these diverse roles ever hinder her academic pursuits? Sakia tackles this question head-on, revealing the challenges and triumphs that come with wearing many hats while pursuing a degree.   Now at Delta-Simons, Sakia reflects on her experiences and projects. From gas risk assessments in the south to a myriad of captivating geoscience endeavours, her journey unfolds with excitement and curiosity.   Sakia's journey is not without guidance and support. She acknowledges the mentors who have accompanied her through her first year, helping her navigate the transition from graduate to seasoned professional.   Speaking of transitions, Sakia discusses shedding the "graduate" title and embracing new responsibilities. Her story unveils the evolution of roles and the inherent learning that accompanies it.   A "Chartership for GeolSoc" might sound intricate, but Sakia breaks it down effortlessly. Tune in to discover why she's pursuing this endeavor, the benefits it offers, and the dedication it requires.   But Sakia's influence goes beyond academia. Her engaging TikTok videos have captured attention and hearts. What's the story behind her content? The responses she receives and the inspiration driving her are all part of the engaging conversation.   Saskia TikTok Channel can be found here: https://www.tiktok.com/@geo.sassie?lang=en   The future holds endless possibilities, and Sakia gives us a sneak peek into her channel's evolution. But TikTok isn't her only outreach platform; she's been involved in various geoscience communication projects, from BBC radio interviews to engaging with schools.   Why does Sakia consider this outreach so crucial? Join us as we explore the significance of bridging the gap between complex science and the wider public.   For more information on what was shared in this episode and to connect with Michael head to https://girec.co.uk/   Make sure you subscribe to the show to join host Michael Taylor as he discusses the ups and downs of running a business in the GI industry, getting geological experts to share their learnings and lessons as well as their plans for the future, highlighting what they think will improve the ground investigation industry moving forward.      

In this episode Nick talks about the social media platform that you should most be focusing on in 2023. If you don't have time to do any other social, you should be leaning into this social platform, TikTok. He lays out the current state of TikTok, why you should go in on it, how you should go in on it, and gives links and resources to other episodes or resources to help you flesh out your social media calendar for your church in 2023. Entire Episode with Complete Transcript: http://www.hybridministry.xyz/036 Watch this Podcast Episode: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9pjecCnd8FVFCenWharf2g Follow Nick on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@clasonnick SHOWNOTES Is Digital a Valid Method of Preaching? https://www.hybridministry.xyz/029 9 TikTok and Reels Videos to use at your church this week! https://www.hybridministry.xyz/023 The Ultimate 2023 Social Media Calendar, Strategy and Posting Guidelines https://www.hybridministry.xyz/025 TIMECODES 00:00-02:12 - Intro 02:12-08:40 The Current State of TikTok 08:40-13:35 What does all of this mean? 13:35-18:52 What content should my church post? 18:52-23:40 The Nitty Gritty of Posting to TikTok with Hooks, Captions and where to place your text on screen 23:40-24:59 Conclusion and Outro TRANSCRIPT Nick Clason (00:02): All right. 3, 2, 1. Well, hello there, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Hybrid Ministry Show. I, as always, am your host, Nick Clason. So thrilled to be here with you, uh, on this episode. And we are going to be continuing on in our journey of the sixth Step Church social media framework. But today, in this episode, I am gonna talk about a social media that if you don't have time to go in on any of the other things that we talk about, this is the one that I highly, highly recommend as a youth pastor myself. Um, I recommend this primarily for student ministries. Um, however, I wanna be very clear that, um, this is a, the number one, uh, social media for Generation Z. And you might think, oh, I'm exempt from that. I don't have to worry about Generation Z. And that's just simply not true. Nick Clason (00:58): You do. Um, and it will become more and more of a prevalent, uh, problem, so to speak. Not that Generation Z is a problem, but, uh, more and more of a prevalent, um, uh, demographic in your church congregation. More and more, they're graduating every single year, and then they're soon becoming a part of the church or not a part of a church. If we're not willing to speak their native language, and if we're not willing to, uh, reach them where they are soon as youth pastors, we are no longer going to have Generation Z even as a part of our ministry because Generation Alpha is right now sitting in our sixth grade, our fifth grade, our fourth grade, they are the soon to be new generation. And so Gen Z, this digital strategy matters for them. And yes, you guessed it. We are talking about TikTok. Nick Clason (01:44): So all that, and more on this episode, as always, show notes, hybridministry.xyz, subscribe on YouTube. Follow me personally on my TikTok, uh, give us a light, give us a subscribe. A subscribe. And please, we would love it if you would give us a rating, especially if you find this information helpful, share it with a friend. But without any further ado, let's dive into why TikTok matters. All right, well, let's talk about the current state of TikTok as it stands in 2023. So, uh, TikTok in just 11 years, so starting back in 2011, all the way now to, um, 2023, so I guess 12 years, uh, TikTok has grown from zero users all the way up to 1 billion estimated users ranking it fourth in social media usage and platforms. So it's only behind Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and then TikTok is fourth. Facebook is at 2.9 billion. Nick Clason (02:48): YouTube is at 2.2 billion. Instagram is at 1.4 billion, and TikTok is at 1 billion. Now, keep in mind that I think that, uh, Facebook and Instagram both play a role, but if you're going to go all in on one, I think you should go all in on TikTok. Facebook often is, uh, really popular with the generation of generation X. Instagram is much more popular with my generation, generation of millennials, and TikTok was made famous by our favorite, um, generation, generation Z and TikTok is driving what these other legacy platforms of Facebook, of Instagram, and even YouTube are doing. So all of the players ahead of TikTok in the, um, estimated users, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, all three of those, if you notice, have a TikTok feature, uh, element woven into 'em reels, Instagram reels, Facebook reels, and YouTube shorts, and they're all three trying to compete and catch up with the wild craze that is TikTok. Nick Clason (03:49): So what even was TikTok, you might remember that TikTok originally started as a brand called a musical dot l wire or Musical Lee, and it was branded and started much as a lip syncing app. I remember as a youth pastor, there were students that would just lip sync and do the musical Lee, uh, type of deals. And so, uh, it was rebranded as TikTok, and it has come around and it has shot up in a meteoric eyes of popularity to become the almost number one. Um, and not like number one downloads, like I just read through the stats, but like number one in, uh, just desirability, right? Of like entertainment apps and social media switched right from being like this social, legitimately social like connection of like human people. I'm friends with my grandma and I'm friends with my aunt to a, uh, platform of entertainment. Nick Clason (04:43): You get on there to watch, to be entertained, to be informed, to be inspired, to be encouraged, to learn something, to laugh, all right? That's what TikTok has kind of become. And so, TikTok, um, was historically thought to be adopted and used by teenagers primarily. And that's why, again, when we think of Generation Z, we think, oh, those are teenagers, right? But I wanna read for you something. Um, some of the most recent data says this, 10 year olds to 19 year olds make up 32.5% of the users on TikTok, where 20 to 29 year olds make up 29.5% of the users on TikTok. 30 to 39 year olds make up 16.4, 40 to 49 year olds make up 13.9 and 50 plus make up 7.1. So if you do some quick dirty math, you're looking at greater than 60% of your users are anywhere from the age of 10 to 30. Nick Clason (05:36): And if you do a little bit more math, 75% of the users on the TikTok app are under the age of 40. Now, let me ask you, is this something that youth pastors only need to be worried about? And I would contend that the answer is no. Yes, the greatest use is of the younger generations, but 10 to 19, that 19 year old's gonna be 20 pretty soon. And my guess is you wanna reach a 20 year old. Like, my guess is you wanna reach a 25, a 27, a 32 year old, and so start going where they are. So according to an article from, uh, September, 2022 in the New York Times, uh, this is what it has said. It said, TikTok is now becoming the new search engine for Generation Z. Here's what the quote says. This is a powerful tool for teenagers, for students, and for the people in your congregation. Nick Clason (06:30): So according to this Afor engine, New York Times article, more and more young people are using talk's powerful algorithm, which personalizes the videos that are shown to you and your for you page, which is based on your interactions with the content. And so to find, uh, information that UNC candidly caters to their tastes, the tailoring, that tailoring is then coupled with a sense that there are real people on the app and are synthesizing and delivering information rather than just simply faceless websites. So there, right there is where you find the social component, but greater than 80 to 90% of the content that most people interact with on TikTok comes from people that they have never met. So pair in mind that the, the usage is meteoric and it is rising faster and faster. And also that now Generation Z is going to TikTok as one of their pry Mary places for search. Nick Clason (07:31): And what did we talk about was the reason in the last episode that YouTube was such a crucial, uh, ground for you to be diving into as a church, as a church creator, is you could create very custom howto content. So that's also now the case with TikTok. One last thing that is, uh, important for you to know about TikTok, while the, while TikTok does, uh, have is only fourth, right? In the overall ranking of, um, social media apps, there was a term, um, coined as power users and 29% of TikTok users are considered power users, and they're the ones who will use the app every single day and further study on that TikTok users spend wait for it on average 95 minutes per day. That's over, that's an hour and a half of their day spent on the app, which does rank number one amongst all of the social media apps for most time used on the TikTok app. Nick Clason (08:34): So that is where we are. What does all of this mean? All right, so what does all of this mean? Like we said, TikTok is beginning to trend older, and even the users themselves are just simply getting older. And it is right now the leader, right? The leader for Generation Z, um, and I think probably soon to be millennials, and those, uh, people are soon to be square in the main demographic of people that your church is likely going to be focused on reaching. The other reason, like I said earlier, consider the fact that Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube have all recently adopted a TikTok algorithm, reels, shorts, right, to make as a cornerstone of their social media, um, strategy moving forward. And so they're, they are responding to this social media app over here, which is why I don't think it's it's necessarily worth, uh, your, I don't know that you need to be ignoring it or that you should be ignoring it, right? Nick Clason (09:34): These other social media platforms, I feel like, oh, we're gonna be all in over here on YouTube, on Instagram to perform well on YouTube and Instagram right now. You need to go all in on the TikTok feature that they have implemented. It's not called TikTok, it's called reels, it's called shorts. But you need to still be all in over on that. And so the legacy platform that made that famous, you should start there. Those are reasons why I think TikTok is currently the most important of all the things you might be wondering. Well then why we talk about YouTube last week, and we're gonna talk about this in the very final episode, but just as a sneak peek of this little, uh, series that we're doing, um, you always want to be able to take your short form content and point it back to something more longer form, and that's where that can live over there on YouTube. Nick Clason (10:16): That's the short answer to that. Okay? So I also want to consider some of the theological implications for this, okay? Acts chapter one, verse eight, very famously, the Great Commission, Jesus says, but you will receive the power of the Holy Spirit. He'll come upon you, and then you'll be my witnesses telling people about me in Jerusalem, in Judea and Samaria, and then ultimately to the utter most parts of the Earth. You might be thinking, well, yeah. So why does me posting a dancing video of my senior pastor on TikTok accomplish the mission of reaching people? Talk's? Algorithm is largely a mystery. People have been trying to crack that code. Obviously, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube are all studying it to try and create their own versions of it. However, there is one thing that we do know is that what, the way that TikTok spreads the message is very much in the same concentric circles that we see described by Jesus in Acts chapter one. Nick Clason (11:08): Verse eight starts by sharing it to your followers. And if they respond well to it, it'll share it to more of their followers. And it starts even geographical. It starts around where you are. You can geotag yourself in your TikTok when you post them. And so it, it does accomplish the mission of helping spread that message until you, more and more people, hundreds, thousands of people can get to hear the message of Jesus every day. Consider this. Let me just give you an anecdotal example. I have a, uh, I'm a youth pastor in an ministry where on average, on a given set, like Wednesday night, we probably average anywhere between a hundred and 150 students, okay? If I post a TikTok about, uh, just a clip from a message or a, a message on there that has something to do with God or theology, or I'm helping share and spread the good news, I'm helping teach people, encourage people, equip people an average video, that that does not perform very well to my standards on TikTok, we'll get somewhere between two and 300 views. Nick Clason (12:14): That is literally double the number of people that see that content then come to my, uh, regular in-person gathering. So why does this matter? I think it matters because we have an opportunity to reach far beyond just the people that have their butts in their seats in the ministry that I lead. And the same is true for you. You have the ability to help get the message out there. Now, you might be thinking, well, why don't, our church doesn't wanna do that? Every church has been tasked by Jesus Christ himself. Acts chapter one verse eight, Matthew 28 18 through 18 through 20, to help fulfill the great commission. And there's an element of discipleship in there where, yes, you have to teach them to obey everything that he has commanded us to do, but also there is a reach component. Get the message of Jesus out there. Nick Clason (13:04): Can that be done via digital means? I would contend that yes, it, it can, and we talked about that early on. Um, we talked about that, uh, actually a couple episodes ago in, uh, the can, can the, can the message of Jesus be done and shared digitally? And, uh, you can go back and listen to it. I'll link to it here in the show notes. But yes, I would contend that yes, it can be done that way. Uh, and you'll see why, and you'll be, you'll have an explanation of why that matters. All right? So this is the age old question, right? What do I post? You might be wondering that you might be asking that. Well, uh, I'll link to an episode that I did at the end of 2022 on this podcast, but it, it's titled, I think, nine TikTok and Short Form Video Ideas that you Can Post on your Church social Media this week. Nick Clason (13:58): I also, uh, laid out for you my complete weekly strategy in another episode. Um, I think it's episode 25, the Ultimate 2023, uh, social media calendar strategy and posting schedule. I'll post both of those if those are something that you find interesting, but they're just chock full of ideas, and honestly, they're very like boots on the ground for me, uh, and stuff that I post every single week. But real quick, uh, a high overview on some of those is, uh, there are really, they're like 3, 4, 5 different categories of things that you can post. The first one is trends. If you spend any time on TikTok, on TikTok app, just yourself personally, I use that save feature incredibly liberally. It's the little like bookmark looking thing on your app. And then I can go back to my personal profile and see things that I've saved. And, but you gotta jump on those trends fast. Nick Clason (14:51): So I always, on my, my posting calendar, um, I don't schedule myself out so much. I leave just some space to do some trends. And so two or three times a week I say post a trend and I go into my saved things, and I'm like, what is going on right now on TikTok? And if there's a certain song or a certain cap cut template or something like that, I just use it and I try to find a, think of a creative, fun, relatable way to use it, and I just use it. Another thing is, um, you can just, you can film like custom content, you know yourself. So like, uh, let me give you an example of, of just that thing I'm trying, um, and you can go check it out on our church, uh, TikTok right now. I I don't wanna, um, give you the link verbally here, so go to the show notes because I'm working on changing the name to it. Nick Clason (15:39): I don't know if, if by the time this post, uh, if the name will be changed or not. But anyway, um, I, I made this game. Um, I'm an author on download youth ministry.com. Um, so I made this game called gif flashback, where you watch a gif for like, uh, seven seconds, and then, um, immediately you're asked a question to just recall what you saw. And so I tried something where me and another, uh, member of my team are named Bailey. We went around all different places in the church, and that's intentional. Uh, as far as TikTok is concerned, we'd, we'd swap out like, uh, outfits and we'd go to different places in the church. And so we shot them all at the same time, but they're in all different pockets and corners at the church. Some are outside, some are inside, some are, you know, whatever. Nick Clason (16:20): At my desk, her desk in the, in the Gaga pit, whatever. And, uh, one of us would run in and be like, quick, Bailey, give flashback, and we'd watch the, the game, all right? And while we're watching it on one of our phones, I would then edit where I'd put the game in on top of the phone. And so I, or she would be playing it by answering the questions and giving the, the answers, but the user, while they're watching it can also, um, watch it and interact with it and play the game as well, right? And so that's a way to use a game that's made for social, um, but also like post it on your TikTok and just have some fun, right? Um, you can do like emoji bible guessing games, which by the way, go to my D ym, uh, link. Uh, I'll drop that in the show notes here as well. Nick Clason (17:04): And you can buy, I have all kinds of like, uh, a game called Emoji phraseology, and every single one of them has a vertically formatted video or, uh, wide screen, or, I'm sorry, uh, video or static, uh, slide that you can post as well as you, uh, interact with or as you, um, edit your video so you can play like emoji guessing games, get flashback, all those things. Um, but yeah, po uh, post some of those just different like fun game type things to do. I also like to do like a lot of minute to win it style games, right? And I just film those, and then I clip 'em up, I edit 'em, um, have fun with them. Other things I like to do post educational videos, like, not, not like, here's some math, right? But like theologically educational videos. So the entire month of January, I posted a, I talked a lot about habits. Nick Clason (17:51): We were in a series of habits, and so I talked about the psychology of building a good habit. And then the entire month of February, I answered some deep theological like questions or just some core tenets, like of the faith. And I walked through, you know, salvation and the Holy Spirit and sin and the problem of evil. And I just like, I, I posted those, you know, occasionally. Um, also, you can always post message clips. And this is why, if you go back to the last podcast that I posted, um, about YouTube as the first step of the strategy, if you're pre-filing or if you're live streaming, you can find two to three short message clips, and you can edit them with a good hook in where you resolve a good hook and you have some good music behind it. And you can post, uh, some of those message, uh, clips on your, on your TikTok, and then you can point those back to the longer form video or audio content for people to find and consume. Nick Clason (18:45): So speaking of hooks, speaking of archetypes, speaking of how to build it, let's dive into that. Next, let's do it. Let's get nitty gritty here. Posting best practices. Number one, you want to have a good hook. You can use the text on screen option, or you can use the text to speech option as the narrated, uh, the narrated, uh, AI sounding voice. But essentially, you need to tell your audience within the first three seconds what this video is going to be about. Because, you know, swiping habits, people are not hovering on videos for very long. If it's not interesting, boom, they're onto the next thing. Boom, they're onto the next thing. This often requires a mindset shift for pastors who hold their hook or who hold their, like, ace up their sleeve usually until the very end of a sermon. Get it out at the very beginning. Nick Clason (19:35): What are you talking about in this video? The other thing is use onscreen captions. They're not for just people who are hard of hearing at this point. Captions are useful because a lot of times people can't watch videos in public places with headphones in. So if your video has captions, they can still watch it, even if their phone is v is, uh, volume is turned all the way down. In fact, check this up. 69% of people say that they view video with their sound off in public places. 69% is almost 70% of users and 25% watch with sound off when they're even in private places. So if you have captions on your videos, people can still watch wherever they are. TikTok will has an auto trans transcribed feature. It works really well. Just pop that onto every single video that you use. All right? You need to make sure you have a call to action. Nick Clason (20:23): So as you're building your audience on TikTok, make sure that you give them a call to action. Tell them to follow for more, save or view this video for later, or head to the Lincoln bio to watch the full message. Again, this is why if you are using our six step framework and you have your YouTube channel linked in your bio, you can send people who are watching message clips to go on and watch the full message to link in bio. And just remember that more than just going viral and building an audience, um, is not just for vanity metrics, right? Is that if you have something significant and meaningful to say, people will want to dial in and listen to longer versions of what you have as they're in their discovery algorithms, finding things on their phone and online. Also, watch where you're placing your text in a TikTok video. Nick Clason (21:07): The top, the bottom and the right side are all off limits. So you really need to hit right in the middle and more, uh, left of center. Uh, I hate when I see people who post things and they, they post it behind the natural places that TikTok covers things. TikTok screen is incredibly busy. So, uh, just look and know where you can and cannot post your text on screen and make sure it doesn't get covered up. Uh, captions and hashtags, I recommend no more than a one sentence caption and no more than three to five hashtags. And if your caption, um, has a word in it, you do not need to hashtag that same word later, right? Like we said, gen Z is using, uh, TikTok, and TikTok is also building on the back end of more searchability. So, um, if, if one of your words is already in your caption, you do not need the hashtag to find it, it will, it will search all of the text on your screen, which again, use text on screen, use their text editor. Nick Clason (22:09): Um, I actually use TikTok. Um, if I'm, if I'm editing on my phone, I'd probably do 50% edit on my computer, 50% edit on my phone directly. Um, if I'm editing on my phone, I edit in the TikTok app, then I download that without the watermark and I post out to all my other content. But TikTok is the, the starting spot for me. And so, um, all the texts on screen, all the things I use natively, they will search my video and find those things and, and help index that in their search back out to other people. Um, and then finally, audio. If you are a business account, your audio options on TikTok are going to be far more limited, which is why if you can do an edit in a computer, it's gonna be better for you. Um, if you're not a business account, and I talk about this in my ebook, which will link to that in the show notes as well. Nick Clason (22:57): Um, there are pros and cons to whether or not you want to be a business account or not. I still, to this day, have not converted ourselves to a business account, but that, that day is probably coming to an end here soon. The biggest disadvantage is I can't just lazily use trending audio. Um, that almost always is, you know, you know, not royalty free and I, you have to pay royalties on it or whatever. There are workarounds to it where you just, you edit the video with that audio in a, like, Adobe Premiere Pro or something like that, and then it's like an original sound for you. It's, but it's not being indexed in search based on that audio. Um, less and less. I think that the quality of the content is gonna be more important than the actual, like, hacking of the system by finding the certain audio things. Nick Clason (23:42): All right. Well, thank you so much for hanging out this entire episode. Like I just said, if, uh, you have not yet grabbed our free e-book, this episode in particular on how to post a TikTok from scratch, the question that the, the title of the e-book is, have I already Ruined My Church TikTok account? And will help you answer that. So go grab your free e-book. Also a rating or review will be incredibly helpful to subscribe over, over on YouTube if you wanna watch this video. We got blower thirds, we got custom graphics flying in. Some of the things I talked about, uh, are gonna be visible on screen that you just have to listen to in your earbuds. And if you heard anything that you're like, that was interesting, I need to go, uh, unpack that a little bit more. We have three transcripts for you over at hybridministry.xyz head there, check it out. But we're so glad that you're on this journey with us. I hope that you are finding this six step social media framework helpful. This was just step number two. Next episode we're step three, which is Facebook. So excited for that. Join us. We'd love to have you there. And until next time, and as always, stay hybrid.

During the Covid-19 pandemic, Dr. Christine Gibson turned to TikTok to help people cope with their distress. Her videos were a sensation, and she became known as the “TikTok trauma doc.” But TikTok is only a small part of Dr. Gibson's body of work, and in this conversation, we'll explore everything from her ascent to social media fame to the many coping strategies she offers patients - and her many viewers - for moving beyond trauma towards a better life. Dre Jillian Horton en conversation avec Dre Christine Gibson Pendant la pandémie de Covid-19, le Dre Christine Gibson s'est tournée vers TikTok pour aider les gens à surmonter leur détresse. Ses vidéos ont fait sensation, et elle est devenue connue sous le nom de "TikTok trauma doc". Mais TikTok n'est qu'une petite partie de l'œuvre du Dre Gibson. Au cours de cette conversation, nous allons tout explorer, de son ascension vers la gloire des médias sociaux aux nombreuses stratégies d'adaptation qu'elle propose à ses patients - et à ses nombreux spectateurs - pour dépasser le traumatisme et accéder à une vie meilleure.

With one billion active users across more than 150 countries, TikTok is by many measures the world's most successful video app. Nearly one in three Americans have an account. It is the most downloaded app since 2021. And like virtually all of social media, user privacy concerns abound. But TikTok adds an extra layer. Owned by Chinese company ByteDance, there are worries that U.S. data could be transmitted to China's government, despite assurances from the company that it is not. Those concerns prompted President Joe Biden to ban Tiktok from government phones. More than half of U.S. states have similar controls in place. But with increased tensions between Beijing and Washington, and mounting questions of Chinese surveillance, some are calling for the U.S. to go further and ban the technology outright. Those supporting such a move often to point to a ban on another Chinese tech giant, Huawei, as an effective means of limiting China's influence and potentially extractive technological efforts. Those who argue against it say a ban would essentially undermine what has become an important tool in the video marketplace, and that such efforts are not only political motivated, but are also easily bypassed. In that context, we debate the following: Should the U.S. Ban TikTok?  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The playbook for artists to go viral on TikTok has changed a lot since 2019. Sean Taylor aka “BrandMan Sean” has written and executed that playbook for his clients since the early days of TikTok. He's the co-founder of the ContraBrand Agency, which specializes in TikTok marketing for music talent. The agency has helped artists like Macy Gray, 24kGoldn, and Trap Beckham, among others.Sean and his team just released a global report on How Artists are Going Viral on TikTok. The report is packed with insights on artist virality on the platform. According to the report, artist-generated content (AGC) is the key to going viral today. It's more impactful than not user-generated content (UGC) from fans and other users. AGC not only works, but it's also a cost-effective way for independent artists to break through.However, Sean points out that virality isn't as easy as before. TikTok has matured, and overnight success is harder to achieve. Still, with the right strategy, Sean believes TikTok is still a second-to-none top-of-funnel marketing play. We broke down this tested TikTok system in our discussion. Here's everything we covered about the platform:[1:51] TikTok entering its maturation stage[5:39] Second wave TikTok music artists vs. first wave[9:10] Biggest shift on TikTok for artists[17:13] No, artists don't have to post dance content[24:00] YouTube shorts lack of culture[26:29] YouTube's advantage over TikTok[31:31] The problem with IG Reels[33:32] TikTok pushing Google for search dominance[38:55] TikTok as a marketing funnel[42:21] The rise of TikTok live[46:10] Predicting where TikTok will be in three yearsHow Artists are Going Viral on TikTok in 2022 report:https://www.contrabrand.agency/tiktokglobalreport2022Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Sean Taylor, @brandmanseanEnjoy this podcast? Rate and review the podcast here! ratethispodcast.com/trapitalTrapital is home for the business of music, media and culture. Learn more by reading Trapital's free memo.TRANSCRIPTIONTrapital #Sean Taylor[00:00:00] Sean Taylor: One of the problems that people were having were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok's algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before.[00:00:42] Dan Runcie Intro: Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from the executives in music, media, entertainment, and more. Who are taking hip hop culture to the next level.[00:00:42] Dan Runcie: All right, today we are joined by my guy, Brandman Sean, Sean Taylor, who is back on the podcast for a second time now, and I wanted to have him on because there's so much that's happening with TikTok, with short form video and how artists are using it. And his company, the contraband agency just put out a report that dives deep into this, and he talks about this often on his platform, the Brandman Network. So Sean, let's level for a little bit, and I feel like TikTok is in such an interesting place right now, 2023. It's not some of that same rapid growth that it may have had a couple years ago, but it's still so essential for artists. How do you feel about where the platform is right now?[00:01:51] Sean Taylor: I think it's in a really good space actually. It's in a maturation space. The problem with that is people aren't seeing hits come as easy on the platform. and they're actually using that to downplay the platform and say, TikTok isn't that impactful, or it's not that big of a deal. It's hard to get a hit on TikTok. The difference is it's now a normal marketing infrastructure within your whole overall marketing stack. So yeah, there was this hot period where you were getting like gains that you probably didn't even deserve. Right. Every shock, swish, nothing but net. Now you have to do what you're supposed to do in every other space. So I think a lot of the pain that people are feeling isn't necessarily TikTok not being effective. It's TikTok not being unreasonably effective, unbelievably effective. The thing that made me get on TikTok, back in 2019. It's in an interesting space, but I think it's in a good space actually. And I can go deeper into that specific argument and why I see it that way. Cuz there's some numbers and milestones that I kind of think of it and approach it from, but yeah, that's where I think TikTok is right now. It's new, it's a viable marketing channel, but it's not the marketing channel that everybody is going to be as excited about as they were.[00:03:24] Dan Runcie: I'm glad you said this because there's been a bunch of reports about how TikTok has slowed down about how artists are starting to complain, and I've heard many A-list artists, even privately and publicly complain that things are popping the way they used to. But this isn't 2019 anymore. It may take some actual marketing expertise since some clever thinking about how to find things in. I remember one of the reports I said was talking about how you can't just give some post or some link to Addison Rae and then hope that someone like that goes and blows the whole thing up for you and makes you a superstar. You have to find your niches and build from there. And in reading that, it's like, well that sounds like what it's like to grow any type of career, and that's probably how it should be, right?[00:04:11] Sean Taylor: Exactly. Should it be that you pay one person and everything just blows up. Not really. I would love it to be that way for me, you know? But look, that's just the reality of how marketing works. So you can still get that number to grow and get millions of streams, but that millions might come a little bit slower. And now when it hits that 2 million mark, 3 million mark, probably even before that, it's gonna take a lot more heavy lifting to get it over the hump where, That thing could just keep going like a rocket ship straight to 2030 and not stop, right? So it's a great space to get things off the ground and create the spark, but going beyond that spark is more difficult.[00:04:59] Dan Runcie: In past years, we saw record labels signing a bunch of artists that came from TikTok, and I would assume that because of this rocket ship success, people didn't have the infrastructure behind them. A lot of those stories probably didn't end up panning out the way that they thought they would, maybe even at a lower rate than the average hit rate for. Otherwise artists at a record label are assigned. But I would think now that things have matured a bit, the artists that are actually coming to the forefront are likely gonna have more behind them. And because of that, B, the potential to actually maybe have a more sustainable career than that first wave of artists who just benefited from a very aggressive area.[00:05:39] Sean Taylor: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing is people hadn't really seen anything like that before, right? Like yeah, there had been one hit wonder. That has happened and someone who's seasoning the game probably understands what needs to take place. But to constantly have day after day someone popping out of nowhere like a breakneck speed level and trying to figure out how to bring infrastructure up, up under all these artists at the same time is a completely different story. Cuz it's also a different story when you have these artists housed under you, and then things take off really fast. You're taking them, you're trying to create a deal and figure out how to sign them, and then create infrastructure. By the time some of these deals take place, a lot of that moment is already missed, right? So, it was a really weird space, and I'm sure there's labels that have more of an infrastructure that's prepared for that situation. It's like, oh, if we bring somebody in from that particular climate, then there's a specific path that we can take 'em. Whether we expedite some things or we start here versus there, I'm sure that's there. But TikTok was really weird watching in the beginning because you had all these people blowing up and many didn't even wanna blow up, right? Like you had kids just using the platform and blowing up, they were an artist or just a regular influence or whatever you call 'em. They were just doing what kids normally do on apps and became stars overnight, which is very different from the artist who wants to be an artist. And then they take off. These are kids who are in their experimentational experimentation phase, kind of just having fun playing with things. And then it might be a hit song, right in a bed without even them trying to pursue it. So it created this really interesting space on TikTok and unfortunately, where I saw early on there were so many artists I don't wanna say artists, actually, less artists, more general content, creators falling prey to opportunist managers and companies because artists fortunately, have had a lot of education in these pages. I'm not saying artists don't ever have bad deals and situations, but there's a very common knowledge almost at this point that's been put out for artists getting in bad deals, avoiding bad deals, what you should do, in the culture, that education is out there as a regular content creator. That information isn't out there. Right. But it's very similar. So I actually saw like a lot of kids being signed by managers who had nothing to do with the industry at all. They're just like, "Hey, I'm just about to sign 51 situation I'm literally thinking about and he's telling me, yeah man, I just signed 50 content creators right to a management deal." And then thinking of it only from the standpoint of if I leverage these 50, then I'm gonna be able to get me a bigger deal, hopefully. But he doesn't have any relationships in place. There's no individual incentive to make any of the individual influencers blow up. It's more just, Hey, let me get stable so I can leverage the stable and, most of those deals fell apart, down the road. Or hopefully the parents kind of figured it out. But I know some who got burned really bad, but things were moving so fast. Like it was crazy. So a lot of parents were. Okay, this guy knows two or three people in the industry and you know, but everybody in the industry knows two or three people. So, but for people who don't have a child in the entertainment industry, and they never had any plans and they have no idea what to do, that sounds good. So TikTok was very crazy at the beginning. It was the wild, wild west. Now we're in this period where I think everybody has figured it out. Not everybody, but many people have figured out how to create more infrastructure. The problem is now the game is harder and that's how life works, right? It's like, dang, the moment I figured this shit out. Right? Things change a little bit. but you referenced my report earlier. I think the thing that was the biggest shift was the artist has to do more work. And that's what people feel more than anything. We could do everything and the artists were doing nothing and we were blowing songs. and now it's like, dang, I gotta get my artist to participate. And we all know how hard it can be to get the artist to participate in some things, especially content, right? but you know, that's created a space for those artists who truly do have a knack for content and that drive and honestly stamina to play that content. They've been able to make a lot happen, get a lot of organic streams, which makes it so much easier on the team cuz you still gotta do your job and make it, blow from there. But I know several artists that we work with who are getting their songs to 500,000 streams, 1 million streams, 10 million streams. Right. Any other form of marketing, just their content. So that's a huge benefit, and that's what I think the silver lining needs to be. The fact that we have that is still something we did not have in 2018 for music specifically, so that we need to appreciate and have gratitude for our blessings.[00:11:00] Dan Runcie: Let's dive into this a little bit because I think this point about artist generated content versus user-generated content is key. And I know it is a big part of your report as well, because I think for years now, we've heard so many people, even TikTok Head of Music just said this at the Nylon conference a couple days ago, was talking about how it's so key to be able to get the fans, to make the videos and get involved and things like that. And while that's still important, you're saying what actually can move the needle even more is getting the artist, even if they're reluctant to do it, getting the artist to do it themselves and having the two of them together and even more so the artist piece of it can really help push things forward.[00:11:42] Sean Taylor: Right. 100%. See, we realized this in 2020, in the trenches, you see this guy post a video, right? And we construct this concept. and you get a hundred thousand streams and just off of your video. Right? And that was amazing at that time to really see that he got a hundred thousand streams. And oh, by the way, there weren't really any replications to his video or sound. It had nothing to do with the dance. It hadn't had anything to do with influencers at all. He had the right creative concept, right? Hundred thousand streams. And for the artist that he was, you know, you're talking about pretty much no listeners, that's a massive number, especially just from one post and even better a post from him. Right. With not much of a following at all. He probably only had like 20,000 followers on Instagram at the time. Right? So we saw that and then I devised this campaign with the artist. Ironically, I just got off a call with this artist. We did like a little Google chat named Fash and Kid in Australia, right? He has some followers, probably a hundred thousand, 200,000 at this time. literally never dropped the song a day in his life at this moment, right? And he's like, “Yo, Sean, I've watched some of your videos and stuff on YouTube, and like, I wanna figure out how to release this song. I'm releasing it next week. What should I do? First of all, "Hey, don't release it next week", you know what I mean? Like, let's talk. Right? So, we made it a month from there, we created this entire narrative driven campaign. And just from him posting it was all based on his post, right? I actually took the marketing method that I blew up my music festival with, before I was doing, like working with artists, and it was all organic posts, right? So I had a structure that I used, and that was literally just him posting on his page. He got 1 million streams on his very first song, right? So, It wasn't one single post that made everything take off, but it was a system of post, and those were all pre, well, primarily pre-release. And then there were some things that were done, but this is 2020, so we're like, man, just posting all right on your page can take you far. The problem, I won't even say the problem was, but the thing is, paying influencers were still working like crazy at that time, right? So we didn't have an incentive to like to lean in it as heavy for artists that, you know, we would, were a little bit harder to get onto the platform and make work. Now, it's one of those things where, okay, look, we really want you to start here because the way things are set up today. If you don't do this and create this foundation, a lot of that other stuff won't bring anywhere near as big of a gain as it did. But yeah, back then we saw success with, or artist generated content, influencers. There were things that we called TikTok creators. We saw all these different types of games, but literally paying influencers was working so great at that time it was like, ah, why do anything else But yeah, artist generated content. Man, it's the way, man, it is the foundation of how I believe. things should be ran today. But of course, the caveat with every artist still has a different path, right? So your artist generated content might look different or artist generated content. There are outliers where that just won't be prevalent for you, but as a general way in a business approach. I love the fact that, one, you're creating fans in visibility for no money, right? You know, however much it costs to create your content, but generally speaking, no money. Two, you're testing. Songs before you actually put money behind them. Right? Three, if something blows, you already have a presence on the platform to connect people to. Because one of the problems that people were having was, were them blowing up right? Without being able to connect to an actual face, right? So it solves so many of the problems that come with that, and even helps the problem of TikTok's algorithm where people just hop on and start running things up with ads and you haven't really even understood what your content looks like, that creates some algorithmic problems, which probably aren't worth getting into, here, or maybe they are, but yeah. Man, artists generate content. It's gonna be a love hate relationship for sure with artists, the labels, all of us, right? But, if anything, it'll force collaboration and synergy between teams, in ways that it hasn't before.[00:16:16] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I got the impression that from the TikTok head of music, making the comments about user-generated content, of course there's plenty to back that up, but I also saw it as a bit of a positioning to not take the stance that I think some of the labels have taken, where I think that the labels have come a bit of the public enemy of the artists who don't wanna be active on TikTok. We all saw the viral post that happened last towards the end of 2022. It was Florence, Florence of the machine and Halsey and others saying like, Hey, the label's making me do this. But I feel like there's so many ways to go about making short form videos and making content. How involved do you get with that piece of it? Cuz I think some of that is because people still think that artists need to be doing one of these like, you know, vertical TikTok dances that fit in something like they're Jason Derulo or something like that, but you don't necessarily have to do.[00:17:13] Sean Taylor: No, you do not. So again, this is one of those things that I was telling people back in 2020, but the problem was, again, dancers were working so hard and so well, no one's gonna believe you. Right? But we were only seeing the commercial level, right? And everything has levels to it, just like the industry, right? You have pop music and there's some genres that. For less far reaching than pop, but they're successful. Right. So that's what I attribute seeing Dances in 2020 work on TikTok. However, there were other things that were working right? like people thought you had to be a super upbeat hip hop song, cash pages song that blew, was nothing of the sort. Right? But so I think that for one, people have to understand that it just goes back to being creative. At the end of the day, and unfortunately many artists stop thinking creatively once they leave the studio, right? And I don't think it's all the artists now. I used to just blame it on the artist where it's like, bro, you're supposed to be an artist. You wanna be creative, right? Artist means more than a musician. Musician is just music, but artist creativity, that's what we're looking at you for. You have to show creativity and how you present yourself in this content. But I think what happened was there was so much working in terms of these trends, and they saw so many. Finding success so fast, it kind of demoralized them into thinking I have to follow these specific formats to find success myself. Right? So when I hear TikTok, I hear TikTok in a specific way, not just another platform that I can distribute my video on. You know what I mean? It would be like, oh yeah, you could create a movie, but it has to be a romcom. That's kind of what they're hearing, right?. That's not the truth though, right?[00:19:08] Dan Runcie: It reminds me too, of what you used to hear of MTV back in the day as well. Right. A lot of artists, especially late eighties, early nineties, a lot of artists that went on to be huge music video artists resisted it and they would always have a bit of a you know, high brow about it. Like, oh, I'm not trying to be like the Sir Mix-a-lot baby who got back a music video, like dancing on, you know, butts and booty shaking and stuff like that. But they found their own way to make the platform unique years down the road when it became the main thing.[00:19:38] Sean Taylor: That's it, because it's you. At the end of the day, you can create the content and the platform is just how you distribute it. Now, I think there's something to be said for using the unique qualities of a platform, right? Just like albums. what people created, just like CDs impacted what people created. Just like the internet and internet culture has impacted, oh, shorter songs cause shorter intention, span longer songs. Cuz now we have more space to create. Like all those things were like, music has always been impacted by the mediums and the culture around it. Right. And I think for some reason we constantly fall into this trap of, you know, oh, SoundCloud music, TikTok music. You know, at one point in time there was I mean, well, people complain about, I've seen people complain about tape cassettes. You know, like when you look up enough, you're gonna find everybody complaining about everything, right? And then the Grammy's, what's the Grammy's formula? Everything has its success, but truthfully, I'm in their own formula for success. But truthfully, you know, especially in this independent business, you know, you don't have to play every single game. I think sometimes we find ourselves wanting things that cause us to play a game we don't want to, which is like that weird love hate thing. It's like, oh, you know, black people shouldn't pay attention and value the Grammys yet. We still want Grammys. Right. You know what I mean? It is that love and hate relationship. I think everybody's doing that with different platforms in, in, in some form of fashion. and you asked earlier, Deep and involved that we get in people's content creation. It's varying, right? we don't do it with every project, every person. It depends on the vision and also their willingness and the need that's there. But, you know, we've gone as deep as recording things ourselves. I remember one campaign. This wasn't artist generated content, it was an influencer, but we bought something off of Amazon to send her for her to wear in it because it connected with the idea. And she had like 5,000 followers at the time. And the video ended up doing like 2 million. Right. So we were like really A and R ing, cuz sometimes it's, you know, TikTok is about narrative and with the presentation, so just hold, let me go to how many followers. Cuz the beauty of TikTok is you can not have a lot of followers and still get a lot of views.But if so, if you find the right person and can contrast it in the right way. Right. You can make it move. Right. I don't want to get into that campaign cause it might be semi uncontroversial in a way. I gotta explain[00:22:23] Dan Runcie: We'll save that one for offline then,[00:22:25] Sean Taylor: yeah. We'll say that one for, offline. For sure. For sure. But yeah, man, I mean, I think what I've seen is, if people can just open their mind and not start what's moving on a platform and just think literally in Word out, "Hey, what do I want to communicate now? How do I communicate that on this platform?" It'll save a lot of stress, particularly for the artists, because artists wanna do music videos. This is nothing but another video, right? So why can't I in 60 seconds? Be creative. Use that box. That box is a framework that will inspire creativity. How can I communicate and make something really dope in 60 seconds? We've had an artist last August blow up, his profile from like 20K to 400K and did 2 million streams in about a month with very, very high quality videos. And everybody thinks you gotta be really low. To find success on TikTok and record it from your phone and have the bubbles. These were very, very high quality shots and editing, and it's darker and it worked. Right. So it's really just about dope content at the end of the day.[00:23:35] Dan Runcie: Yeah, for sure. Let's switch gears a bit. I want to talk. Talk's, competitors that are also in this space wanna talk YouTube and Instagram. But let's start with YouTube first, because you had recently put out a video where you were talking about YouTube shorts, their efforts there, and you said you're not concerned about YouTube shorts' impact because it just doesn't have the culture that exists on TikTok. Can you talk more about that?[00:24:00] Sean Taylor: yeah. So the thing that made TikTok so unique, early on was it developed a culture, like once it hit that network effect, I knew it wasn't gonna go away overnight cuz there's too much money involved outside of the government stuff. But that's a different story. Right? And then culture, like people, have a different presentation and expectation on how you act on TikTok. It's looser than Instagram. That was the beauty of it, right? So that created a culture. YouTube has an established culture and relationship that they have. their audience. YouTube isn't as interactive. It's a little closer to tv. You know what I mean? And Instagram's a little bit more of a resume. Most people are putting on their best, their Sunday best, if you will. TikTok, we're involved in this together. People feel like they have the power to blow a song up on TikTok. the users feel like they're giving heavy feedback. You should drop this song. When is this gonna come out, right? It's a completely different culture that you can't just copy overnight. That's where competitive advantages get created, right? Culture. Cause it's very, very hard to mimic that. I think it's gonna be successful, but it's just not going to be a threat to TikTok in that specific way where, you know, it's like a TikTok killer or something. It's like the Jordan Stoppers. Oh yeah. You know, Jordan only scored 39 instead of 35. Cool. You might see.[00:25:26] Dan Runcie: So if it's thinking about the Kobe stopper thing, so if TikTok is Kobe Bryant then is YouTube shorts, Ruben Patterson.[00:25:37] Sean Taylor: You too might wanna take offense to that, but in this analogy, yes.[00:25:42] Dan Runcie: Yeah, but I've been thinking a lot about the YouTube piece, and I will give them credit. I think the trajectory of YouTube is greater than Ruben Patterson. No disrespect, but I do think that Lyor Cohen had said something interesting. Of course, he's the head of YouTube and one of his big things is that the fact that YouTube shorts has the connection directly to the platform [00:26:04] Sean Taylor: Yeah.[00:26:04] Dan Runcie: on-demand listening happens, he feels like that conversion rate and that connection is stronger. And he didn't name TikTok specifically, but he was essentially talking about the fact that TikTok doesn't have that same type of win. I know they have Rezo, but it's just not the same. What do you think about that? Cuz I think the underlying aspect of that is conversion and just being able to transport an audience from one to the other. What have you seen from that perspective.[00:26:29] Sean Taylor: I think Lyor Cohen is extremely smart and savvy, and reading that statement. It was hilarious cuz you know the elephants in the room that he's addressing and it was like this competitive moment happening. It was like, come on man. Say their name. Say their name. But you're like, I'm not gonna give them any clout that was really, funny to read. But I think that they do have an advantage that TikTok doesn't. Right in that way, the long form content and that mentality, I think it's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to get people to consume shorts on their platform than it is for No. It's gonna be a lot harder for TikTok to consume long form content on their flat platform than it is gonna be for YouTube people to consume short form. Does that make sense?[00:27:19] Dan Runcie: Yeah, that makes sense. And I feel like part of it too is the conversion rate is one thing. I don't doubt that there's likely could be a higher conversion rate, but I think that absolute number is still what makes the difference at the end of the day. And I just don't know if the overall absolute number of people that are converting from. Hearing a song on TikTok and then going to stream that artist and then becoming a follower and an avid fan of that artist is necessarily going to be a number that's ever smaller than what we may see otherwise from YouTube. I think YouTube has still had great strides in that area, but I just don't see it coming to that level.[00:27:56] Sean Taylor: no. Cause again, it's about that culture, right? So two things, I'll get to the YouTube TikTok second. But when we first got on TikTok and started working with some people on TikTok, it was ridiculous to see the conversion of people who left TikTok and went to Spotify. Instagram, these other places, but specifically, let's talk about Spotify. Why was it so ridiculous? Because at that time, TikTok did not acknowledge the music on the platform at all, right? You had people hearing the song and then googling the lyrics to find the song name and then going to stream it, and it was happening in droves. That much friction told us, holy shit, when they get rid of this friction, it's gonna go. And of course TikTok got rid of that friction. But pa the fact that people were doing that, like I remember telling some artists, yo man, you got like a dollar sign and this version of the song, and then it's like no dollar sign. Like, and so people were having difficulty finding it. It's like, bro, you're ruining people's ability to stream your song. Like that was a thing. And then people started to rename their songs or added lyrics in the parentheses, right? Because of the culture. And that was happening and they wanted to make sure people could find the song right. Now we see less of that. It goes back to like the mediums and how things are influencing. Now we see less of that cuz you can figure out what it is within TikTok and people know how to name it. So that transferability from TikTok to other platforms has just been there for so long and people almost expected it. It's almost like TikTok is the megaphone, the amplifier. But then you don't even really expect to go super deep on TikTok, right? YouTube, you kind of do expect to go deep, but when we. Look at the platforms that TikTok converted to, and this is where I say the competitive advantage of YouTube goes. YouTube was one of the greatest conversions from TikTok that we would see. Like so many people left TikTok to go to Spotify and YouTube. Instagram was last particularly for artists. Right? So now, yes, being on YouTube already, Is a great competitive advantage. I think there's some fluidity issues that they need to solve. Like right now, from the phone, from your phone, I could take this video that we're creating right now and say, yeah, I want 10 seconds to 20 seconds, and take that into a short and it'll automatically be connected. But I can't make a cool edited short that's specific to the short format, and then say it's from this video. Right. And that'll make things even smoother because it's hard to take a snippet from the long form content just from timestamps and that would be a good piece of short form content. So people have to be able to edit and then connect it back for that to really come into place. And also they would have to make it a little bit more obvious that you can do that because the culture is not yet to go from long. I'm in short form to long form within YouTube. I know it happens, but people aren't naturally having that expectation. Oh shoot. This is probably from a larger video that's on this platform. What people are seeing more on YouTube is actually, mm, it's the opposite of what allowed TikTok to become what it became, and I don't know how it's gonna play out, so I'll tell you what I'm saying.[00:31:23] Dan Runcie: What are your thoughts on Instagram reels? I think you talked a little bit about it, how it's a bit of a resume but where do they stand?[00:31:31] Sean Taylor: I don't like reels, in terms of the value add yet, it's very inaccurate. So you'll get higher numbers, less engagement, where it's pretty clear it's not going out to the right people. The best people you know, they're, padding the numbers, so to speak. Right. It's cool that it got more reach, but if it wasn't accurate and I didn't get that much following, what does it really mean? That's where reels are at large. Now, can reels work and has it still helped some songs? Yes. It's just not it's not at the proportion that TikTok has been, and I think YouTube shorts are going. definitely, beat reels.[00:32:11] Dan Runcie: Yeah. I think the clear desire from Instagram to try to turn your entire feed into a for you page is forcing this content to not necessarily hit the right people, which is why. Yes, it could be good from a viral discovery thing where, okay, if you have a post that's doing better than 80 or 90% of your other posts, then yeah, it may reach a larger than initially intended audience, but I don't know if it could be necessarily relied on in the same type of way.[00:32:41] Sean Taylor: Yep. I agree with you there. We'll see if they figure it out maybe they should focus less on the Metaverse.[00:32:52] Dan Runcie: Another thing that you had brought up a little bit earlier was about search in general and just how powerful that's become on TikTok. I think it's clear that they want to, well, I think TikTok is trying to do anything and everything. I know this is something for folks that follow Trapital been writing about this recently, all the things they're getting involved with. But I do think search is one of those interesting things because they are trying to take on a Google Head on, and people have seen how, especially Gen Z, they may be more likely to look up something through TikTok than looking it up through Google. What do you see as the potential of that moving forward, and do you think that would be a credible threat to Google at some point?[00:33:32] Sean Taylor: yes. You know why tutorial culture, that's what TikTok cut into. And Instagram never did that. It was never really a place that you went to look up tutorials, right? So it's less about music and entertainment and that side of things. It's the fact that people are looking at recipes, right? How to fix things. And then once you have that, that's what creates the. For looking things up in the, at the seo, right? it's not that it can't be created in other ways, but that's like a hack. If I know I can go find this and, oh man, I can find it done in 60 seconds versus three minutes or 10 minutes because on YouTube the video's not as valuable and might not go as far if I don't do an intro and all this leads in, right? Oh, these videos won't go straight to it. So they have a lot of ground to make on YouTube. But I think they're going to succeed, I'm not into the speculation of which one's gonna be number one. There might be days where it beats YouTube or whatever, but it's going to be, a legitimate search engine. You know, Yahoo, Google at least.[00:34:43] Dan Runcie: I do think that the tutorial piece is key, and I'm even thinking about times I've used it in the past. We bought a mattress recently, and of course you could Google search, what does this mattress like? But sometimes it's easier to just put it in TikTok and have someone show me some unboxing video to show me what that's like and compare a few. I liked it for that. I think more broadly in terms of all of the search pieces of it. I think that what Google has done in this space and even thinking about, you know, decades back about how they beat Legos and Alta Vistas, some of those others, I think it will be hard to ever replace that for everything that's possible, that people would wanna search. But I do think that the video tutorial piece of it, which is a subsection of it, but I do think that that's a unique place where they can, if you get core to the market there, you can figure things out. I also think that either misinformation or wasted just credibly have or understanding for users to know, okay, "What is legitimate?, What is not legitimate? Is a concern, and I think it's maybe harder to do in a way where I think text, you can have some of those clear things come up where I think the nature of a viral platform wants to show things that you know, may be sensationalized to some extent through video. That may take time, but I think that's one thing that will need to develop, especially on the TikTok side of things for sure.[00:36:02] Sean Taylor: See what you're explaining is the different personalities of seo. Just like we talk about the different personalities of TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. So Google dominates damn near Monopoly. You couldn't just be a Yahoo or actually, truly become a threat, but what you could. Was be Amazon and eventually have so much shit on there that people just think, "Oh, if I want a table, I'm gonna go Amazon, look for a table, I'm not gonna go to Google", right? Or you could be a YouTube, right? And have so many videos. If I want a video tutorial, I'm just gonna go to YouTube, right? So you enter the search engine market from the side versus, you know, the [inaudible] so I think TikTok has successfully gotten there. and even that personality being short form is something that attributes to that and the personality that Google will probably hold on to,in the long term for sure is probably gonna be the more scholarly approach, right? The more credible approach because of those other platforms. that's almost in conflict with what makes things move and the way people use them, and incentives that are in place.[00:37:15] Dan Runcie: Right. That makes sense. That makes sense. The other thing too, that it'd be good to get your thoughts on with TikTok is I think a lot of this conversation and a lot of how people have been measuring the success for TikTok is that conversion from TikTok and broader social engagement to streams, what are you seeing though from the next level down? From how looking at TikTok itself can eventually translate to concert ticket sales, or whether it's V I P clubs or other high end opportunities that fans are engaging it with an artist.[00:37:50] Sean Taylor: It's there. We've already had artists do that. The difficulty is the geography of it all. So you can do that, but you aren't completely sure that the video is going to go viral enough within your own audience, right? Because still, especially like most of last year, you still can drop a TikTok and it's mostly gonna be seen by new people, especially for people earlier on, right? So if all of your followers aren't necessarily going to see your posts, it's gonna be new. then that creates this issue with going deep with your audience, right? It's great for going viral and gaining and blowing up fast. That's why it happened, right? That built TikTok in a sort of way to show it to more new people than people who are following you. But then at some point it becomes, well, what are my followers really worth? right on TikTok. And I think some people are starting to figure that out. Like, man, I don't know if this really matters all that much. It really only matters what the individual video itself does, right. So the problem with that, if I'm doing a show and I don't know if my followers will see it, or I have no idea if it's good, or enough of video because it's outside of my normal format to get enough people to see it in general. Then, man, that's not predictable enough. It could be my strategy, but it's not predictable enough. Now, the advertising might come into play, which is a different conversation, but there's that, and then again, also, who's gonna see it geographically in the world? We have no, you know, way of controlling that. Again, outside of ads so far. It's definitely something that's useful for selling things like merch, for creating awareness for your shows, but the best way we've seen it with shows for the most part, is almost to talk about your tour as a whole, right?. So you bring awareness that multiple are going to happen, and then if your artist is down for it and it kind of works within your format, you can also vlog in a way, or like let people know, oh yeah, I'm gonna be in Atlanta tonight. Right? So they see and get reminded that you are on tour, right? So it's trying to create this awareness of all the spaces and places that they will be going. And then also reminding them that you're in process of this to remind them, oh yeah, when he's gonna, when is he gonna beat in my city? That's kind of like the best middle ground we've found. But it's hard to be like, Hey, I'm gonna be in Atlanta next week and all my Atlanta people and expect all the Atlanta people to actually see that and convert.[00:40:27] Dan Runcie: Right. it's a funnel at the end of the day, right? And TikTok sits at the top of it, even higher than some other social media platforms, right? And then from there, it's always going to be hardened, honestly foolish to an extent. If your main message on the top of the funnel awareness platform is, "Hey, Join my V I P club or join my Patreon or buy tickets to my concert, right?" You need to introduce people, let them know who you are, and maybe at that next level of engagement, then you can start to push more of those things. Then you can start to have more of these things come through, because there's just gonna be less friction there and you're doing the job that should be done at each level of the.[00:41:08] Sean Taylor: I agree man. I think, like you said, at the end of the day, it always goes back to the fundamentals of it and there might be aberrations. Give us more for moments of time, but things are always gonna default back to that basic infrastructure and use the thing with the right expectations versus expecting everything from it.[00:41:30] Dan Runcie: right. The other thing that I've thought a lot about for this conversation is, and even for reading the report and rolling into the show notes, so others can take a look at it as well, but thinking about how artists generate content and having artists push is what the wave is. At least at this particular moment. And I think there's a lot of reasons to think that yes, this is what makes sense now moving forward, but we also know how quick these things change and how things have evolved. Do you see another element, like I know eventually gaining steam eventually, I know that we talked about ads, we talked about influencer campaigns and just UTC and how a lot of these things were stronger and now relatively weaker to artists generated campaigns. Is there another thing that you think is going to play a role or that we may see another shift in this.[00:42:21] Sean Taylor: The dark horse is TikTok lives. Everybody's actually. Investing more in a live culture in general when you look at YouTube, as well. but TikTok lives the way they use that for you. Page is ridiculous, man. On Instagram, you're gonna see the lives of people that you're following. Again, on TikTok, you can go live and people will discover, right? It'll pop up on the people's For You page, and that's a different paradigm, right? I've seen it live when my partner was live where all of a sudden, like thousands of people came in, right? Because TikTok was feeding him to so many people. and then he would see it also trickle off. Whereas like experimenting, they wanna find a live that's engaging in a way that content isn't, moves up the algorithmic letter, right? So they're, look, that's how they display lives. So the fact that you can blow up doing lives, it's a completely different paradigm because it's like having a show but the people who do it well, they're getting money in these lives. A lot of money. I've seen people make a lot of money in their lives, but it's also a great format to build a relationship far deeper than you can through individual content and lead people over to buy tickets. We've used lives to like getting emails and, I mean, I did one campaign even back in 2020. , that artist Fash we probably got 10,000 emails more so from him going live, not more so, only from him going live. Actually, he even use a little bit of IG live. So the fact that you can do that is going to create this other performance skill that artists will have.[00:44:06] Sean Taylor: Almost like being a salesman, right? But doing it in a way where you give the presentation and the ask isn't so blatant. it's, we're going into this climate that's going to breed so many different types of artists like that have these, you know how you could be an artist that plays an instrument or you could be an artist that sings, maybe you could do multiple, where there's now these soft skills that we'll see artists, oh man, this dude is, he's just a salesman and he knows how to entertain people on live. And that's how he plays his game. This person still is just a pure musician, or this person creates a really dope content in the box of the regular feed. There's gonna be things like that. And the thing is, these other platforms are, you know, homogenous in many ways. They keep copying each other. So that culture that starts on TikTok, it's not just a TikTok thing. I always communicated it as a new language to learn because the new generation would be used to hearing and seeing things and consuming things in this format. So they'll wanna see it on other platforms. And inevitably, right, like we have an hour podcast, two hour podcasts, and people were like, Hey man, can you make this in 60 seconds? Like they expect to be able to learn something really valuable that's gonna change their. You know, in literally 60 seconds. I mean, we literally have had those conversations and seen those comments, but everything's not, you know, how you bake a cake? People like you can't rip at everything and change your artist's career in 60 seconds. But that's what we're seeing, like live is truly a dark horse, and I think it is gonna become more prevalent in TikTok and YouTube as well, to be honest.[00:45:45] Dan Runcie: No, I can see that happening definitely just with the way things are going. But, last question before we let you go here though. So let's fast forward three years. 2026. Is TikTok still in the dominant position that it is right now? And if it isn't, is it because of geopolitical concerns or is it because of another competitor that now has the next big thing?[00:46:10] Sean Taylor: If it isn't geopolitical, I think it's gonna be pretty dominant from what I've seen. in terms of their vertical integration and investment, particularly in music. It's just nothing like any other platform like you've seen, I mean Sound On, right. Rezo. Right. It's just different in what they're trying to do. They have deals that they've offered artists. Right. Which is really nice. Right. And unique because, oh, you're on, sound on and you. You have a song that blows up using their distribution platform. They have all the data. So now we can offer you a deal and you don't have to pay it back cuz it's gonna be paid back through the royalties. We're probably using the algorithm to calculate how much we should give you anyway. Right? This is already happening. Right. So the way they invest in it, I think it's just gonna be hard to get a pool away from it in three years. again, it's going to. More of a norm, less hot in its way, but I think they're gonna be pretty dominant in three, three years down the road. Yeah. I'll, I'll leave that at that.[00:47:10] Dan Runcie: Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think three years, because even though I do think that TikTok has been the fastest to grow to a billion users, at least what we've seen from a social app, I do think that the next app will probably be even shorter just thinking about how much faster adoption is, but. It still took TikTok several years to get to this point, so I think maybe five, six years would be a different conversation. But no, I agree with you. Three years. If it ends up being shut down, it'll be for some geopolitical concerns, but we'll see between now and then. We'll have to check in again at some point if any of that ends up going in that direction. But Sean, it's been a pleasure man. Thank you for coming on and for people that wanna learn more about your insights on TikTok and the stuff you're doing at Contraband Agency, where should we reach out?[00:47:56] Sean Taylor: Brandman Network on YouTube is a nice place to start. You know, you watch the podcast or you just go to no labels necessary on, Spotify, but no labels necessary is our podcast. So type in no labels necessary on YouTube or, or Spotify. At the moment, I think the podcast is probably the best place to go. But if you're immediately interested in services and want to speak with our team, that would be contraband.agency. There's no.com, www.contrabrand.agency[00:48:28] Dan Runcie: Good stuff. All right. Thanks again, Sean. Appreciate you.[00:48:31] Sean Taylor: Always good speaking with you man.[00:48:33] Dan Runcie Outro: If you enjoyed this podcast, go ahead and share it with a friend. Copy the link, text it to a friend, post it in your group chat. Post it in your Slack groups. Wherever you and your people talk, spread the word. That's how Trapital continues to grow and continues to reach the right people. And while you're at it, if you use Apple Podcast, go ahead. Rate the podcast, give it a high rating, and leave a review. Tell people why you like the podcast. That helps more people. Discover the show. Thank you in advance. Talk to you next week.

Every social media network uses algorithms to keep its audience engaged. But TikTok seems to take it to a new, terrifying level.Read the Plugged In review: https://www.pluggedin.com/blog/study-tiktok-uses-its-algorithms-to-hurt-teens/If you've listened to any of our podcasts, please give us your feedback: https://focusonthefamily.com/podcastsurvey/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Direct-to-consumer. DTC. What emotional response do those words conjure for you? The formula for DTC used to be simple – spend marketing dollars to acquire new customers. Today, customer acquisition costs can be 10X higher than they used to be, so what should be the new strategy in these challenging, post-pandemic economic times? Polly Wong, president of Bellardi Wong, and our latest Retail Transformer, has the answers. Polly's agency works with the best, most successful DTC brands and she is sharing the best practices every DTC founder, brand manager, and category manager need to know to be successful in this episode! Should you open stores? Leverage print? Catalogs? Is Facebook still worthwhile? What about TikTok? Listen and find out!News alert #1: The Retail Razor Show has been nominated for The Retail Voice Award at the Vendors in Partnership Award ceremony during NRF 2023 in January in New York City! IF you're a fan of the show, please give us your vote! You can vote here: https://bit.ly/VIPretail News alert #2! We've moved up to #19 on the Feedspot Top 60 Best Retail podcasts list, so please keep those 5-star reviews in Apple Podcasts coming! With your help, we'll move our way further up the Top 20! Leave us a review to be mentioned in upcoming episodes! https://blog.feedspot.com/retail_podcasts/Meet your hosts, helping you cut through the clutter in retail & retail tech:Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top Retail Influencer for 2022 & 2021, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, a Top 12 ecommerce influencer, advisory council member at George Mason University's Center for Retail Transformation, and director partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock. Obsessed with the customer relationship between the brand and the consumer. After a career on the fashion and supply chain technology side of the business, now slaying franken-stacks and building retail tech!Includes music provided by imunobeats.com, featuring E-Motive, and Overclocked, from the album Beat Hype, written by Hestron Mimms, published by Imuno.The Retail Razor ShowFollow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazorConnect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazorSubscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTubeSubscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShowRetail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPodHost → Ricardo Belmar,Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twRBelmarConnect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LIRBelmarRead my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWRBelmarCo-host → Casey Golden,Follow on Twitter - https://bit.ly/twCaseyConnect on LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/LICaseyRead my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCaseyTRANSCRIPTS2E5 Retail Transformers - Polly Wong[00:00:00] Pre-Intro[00:00:00] Casey Golden: Ricardo, I've got one word for you to describe this week's show. Dtc. [00:00:06] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah, so Casey, I'm thinking that's technically three words, but, but nevermind that. Um, I don't think we've done an entire show focused on DTC before, have we?[00:00:13] Casey Golden: Hey, I didn't write the script. So[00:00:21] So this is exciting and. I'm especially pumped for all [00:00:24] the DTC founders out there tuning in. This one is for you.[00:00:28] Ricardo Belmar: That's true, and honestly, if you're a direct to consumer founder listening or, or watching us on YouTube, stop right now. Go grab a pen and paper or your iPad or whatever you like to use to take notes, because believe me, you are going to be writing things down nonstop in a mad fury throughout this episode.[00:00:45] Casey Golden: Oh yeah. The tips and tricks are going to be flying. And you just don't wanna miss a[00:00:50] minute.[00:00:51] Ricardo Belmar: So should we just start the show or should we make listeners suffer a little bit more first, with more of our carefree and eloquent banter,[00:00:56] Casey Golden: Oh, you're so cruel. Let's get to the music already. [00:00:59][00:01:19] Show Intro[00:01:19] Ricardo Belmar: Hello and welcome to season two, episode five of The Retail Razor Show. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.[00:01:25] Casey Golden: And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden. Welcome to the Retail Razor Show listeners, retail's unapologetically authentic podcast for product junkies, commerce technologists, and everybody else in retail and tech alike. [00:01:39] Ricardo Belmar: We are [00:01:40] back with another [00:01:41] episode in our Retail Transformers series, and honestly, if you thought last episode's guest, Alan Smithson was an absolutely incredible, never ending source of value on the Metaverse, wow are you gonna be blown away with today's guest and topic![00:01:54] Casey Golden: Yeah. As a founder, I'm so excited we're going to dive into this world of D to C and talk with amazing expert that's working with most of the top D to C brands out there. You would not believe how much knowledge she has to share, and that could really impact your DTC business by multiples [00:02:16] Ricardo Belmar: Indeed! Faithful followers, you will learn exactly why Polly Wong is more than meets the eye. This may go down as one of our most listened to episodes. We're gonna hear about what the right marketing and media spend mix should be for customer acquisition today. Because honestly, if you think it's the same as it was in the early days of D to C, boy are you in for a shock.[00:02:35] Casey Golden: Yeah, I mean, did you even consider print, like say catalogs? I bet you didn't. You will after this episode.[00:02:44] Ricardo Belmar: And then there's all the tips you're gonna hear [00:02:46] on growth strategies, how to activate your CRM for more profitable growth, retargeting those customers. And what about opening stores? Have you thought about where to open stores? [00:02:55] Casey Golden: There's just so much we could list. I mean, you're going to hear so many incredible [00:03:00] nuggets on marketing, roi, ROAS, and just so much more. [00:03:04] Ricardo Belmar: All right, then let's get to it. [00:03:06] Casey Golden: Let's roll.[00:03:07][00:03:12] Polly Wong Interview[00:03:12] Ricardo Belmar: And we're here with our special guest and latest retail transformer to visit the show. Polly Wong, President of Belardi Wong, which some people may know as a direct to consumer marketing agency. But more on that in a moment. First of all, welcome Polly.[00:03:26] Polly Wong: Thank you for having me.[00:03:27] Casey Golden: It's great to have you on the show. Since we first met you, we've both been looking forward to this conversation and really digging in. So excited [00:03:36] Ricardo Belmar: Polly just to get us started, why don't you give us a more complete introduction of yourself and tell us about your company and what you do.[00:03:42] Polly Wong: You know, I've been in retail for 25 years. I've had an incredible amount of experience. Really. It's both on the client side at some major retailers. I started 25 years ago at eddiebower.com. I was fortunate to work at Williams Sonoma Inc across their portfolio of brands before jumping to the dark side to the agency side, which is a lot of fun and an incredible learning curve.[00:04:06] It's like learning on steroids, I like to say. Today at Belardi Wong, we have 400 active clients, about 90% D TO C brands. Of course, D to C brands have stores as well. And then some very large retail brands that that all of you would know as well. A tremendous amount of experience in fashion, at home decor, furnishings also in some niche categories as well.[00:04:28] We definitely do tend to work with premium brands targeting an affluent consumer. So much of the vantage point that I have to share with you today is really from that angle of brands who are really targeting, you know, an affluent consumer. The folks out there buying, you know, two or $300 sweaters and expensive shoes and $5,000 sofa.[00:04:47] So I, I like to make that clearer, but we're really privileged just to have an incredible vantage point into the industry. [00:04:53] Casey Golden: Really excited to dig deeper in this. As I mentioned before, I'm very intrigued in, in, into the side of the business of marketing. Compared to a lot of the more traditional route that have been taken over the last decade. So clearly you're focused on direct to consumer brands, both old and new, but certainly more established brands.[00:05:10] I think based off of what you said, one of the areas getting a lot of press lately in the D to C space is really how the marketing spend is being shifted from Facebook, Google, versus other mediums. Can you tell us a little bit about what's happening here with D to C brands and how that's changing this marketing mix?[00:05:30] Polly Wong: Sure. So it's been a really fascinating year to watch how the Apple platform changes have really impacted all of the digital platforms. Specifically meta we've found, as an aside, we've found that really Google is quite a resilient, steady, reliable channel. You know, Google continues to make enhancements that work for advertisers.[00:05:52] Performance Max on Google has worked very well for our clients over the last several months, so, so Google's very kind of reliable and steady. Google has had 10 to 50% increase, 10 to 15% increases. And, you know, costs, but really in line with kind of all the cost increases we're seeing across the p and l as a brand or as a retailer.[00:06:12] So really the challenge on the digital side in the last year has really come from meta and the Apple platform changes basically led. To less effective targeting and less effective measurement. And at the same time that our clients have seen a less effective measurement and less effective targeting on meta, they've also seen some pretty steep double digit increases on CPMs, on meta or Facebook, if you will.[00:06:38] And so we've seen dramatic underperformance in the last year, specifically in the social landscape. And so, you know, D to C brands inherently were built on Facebook and Google. The inherent DNA, if you will, of, of D to C brands is that one, they're performance based marketers, and two, you know, they're just wholeheartedly focused on new customer acquisition.[00:07:01] And so now you've seen that this Facebook channel just, you know, one of the top two most critical channels for new customer acquisition for DTC brands has really begun to plummet in the last year. I know across our client base through August, our clients have spent 19% less this year versus last year on Meta.[00:07:21] And that's because of the significant underperformance. But obviously Meta has taken the lion share of most of the marketing dollars for D2C brands. So, the question is, where is it going? You know, where are they shifting marketing spend? And that's been really interesting to [00:07:35] Casey Golden: That's great, and you really mention it as like a CRM strategy. [00:07:39] Is that, Is that right? [00:07:40] Spending shifts and pivots[00:07:40] Polly Wong: Yeah, so I think, well, I think we can talk about kind of where they're shifting their spend, but also, you know, what are some of the, the pivots that D to C brands need to make in order to be successful. And I think most D2C brands have not realized yet that the most incredible asset that they have is the customer file, the customer database.[00:08:01] That they've built up over the last five to 10 years. Now they've spent millions and millions of dollars building their customer file. New customer acquisition always comes at a cost. It's an investment. You cannot have a profitable business when you are only focused on acquisition as a fact.[00:08:15] Casey Golden: Oh my God, can you just like, say that [00:08:17] Ricardo Belmar: we should just frame that just to make that clear for, for everyone who's doubting that [00:08:22] Casey Golden: We're putting that in bold print.[00:08:24] Polly Wong: Yes. Also I'll just go out on a limb and also say you can't have a large, scalable, sustainable business when you only have a handful of product as well, we can get to that later. But definitely you can't just single handidly focus on new customer acquisition so I actually see, you know, there's a lot of headwinds right now, but I see a major tailwind that D to C brands could lean into is really crm, right? You know, I've talked to many, many brands over the years that when you ask them, they say they spent a hundred percent of their marketing budget on acquisition, and it's almost like crm, customer retention management. It's just an afterthought, right?[00:08:59] Like, Oh, we have email now, of course they'll say, We have email and sms. But there are really five major channels in the CRM toolbox, and we don't see D to C brands leaning into that. It's a discipline and a skill set they need to evolve to very quickly because that's where the profit is going to come, as we kind of stare down some economic uncertainty.[00:09:18] So the five channels that we really think about, obviously e email. Second is sms. Some clients have leaned into it very quickly. Some have not. It's still a huge opportunity. I, for one, wondered at the beginning if really SMS would just be shifting sales from email, but we do find that SMS is an incremental revenue driver.[00:09:37] So you've got email and sms. Obviously D to C brands are pretty good at targeting their customer file on Facebook, but they let it work too often on its own. And you really have to think about the segmentation and targeting of lapse customers. You have to carve out specific marketing dollars at targeting customers who've not bought from you in over a year.[00:09:58] There's still a better focus for your marketing dollar than pure new customer acquisition. And so you really wanna target your lapse customer file, on Facebook, and you wanna make sure you're looking at the frequency and the messaging and the targeting and the testing against that segment. [00:10:13] So now hopefully you've got brands, you know, leveraging and leaning into reactivation on social. I think what we don't find enough is actually proactive spending on search with your lapse customers. Let's say that Mary Jane bought a sweater from you a year and a half ago, and now Mary Jane is on Google searching for a turquoise turtleneck sweater.[00:10:36] You should be there targeting her. You should be buying that ad against Mary's search, right? Her click, you should be targeting her. And so really targeting lapse customers when they're searching for your product is a huge opportunity. We don't see clients carving out marketing dollars to really have that kind of proactive approach at customer reactivation on search, so I think that's a low hanging opportunity.[00:11:00] And then for definitely print. So all 400, you know, retailers and brands here, at Belardi Wong, are in the mail. They're leveraging direct mail and catalogs for customer retention. It's extremely effective. And driving up purchase frequency and revenue per customer and overall lifetime value. The great thing about print is that, you know, you've got a hundred percent reach.[00:11:22] So if you want to target Mary Jane who bought from you a year and a half ago she's gotta at least touch the piece to recycle it, so you've got a hundred percent reach. All of our data over the last year as we've looked at it, we've found that if you want to target a specific customer at a specific time within social, you've got about an 18% chance.[00:11:43] Basically, you've got an 18% chance of reaching who you want. When you want to on Facebook, and that's because you're competing with other advertisers for her impression. Mary Jane your customer only has so much impressions and frequency on Facebook and you're competing with other advertisers, and especially in our case, as I said, our clients tend to target, you know, affluent consumers and so Mary Jane is a great shopper and there's a lot of advertisers who want her impressions, and so you can't be sure that you're going to reach her.[00:12:13] And on email, you know, maybe you're lucky if you've got a 20, 25% open rate, but once you start looking at your lapse customers, maybe you've got a 10 or 15% open rate. And so the only way that you could make sure that you get a hundred percent reach is in the mail. And so we see this CRM toolbox with email, sms, social, search and print really is a major opportunity for D to C brands who built very expensive customer files at this point, to really lean into that as a major growth strategy.[00:12:42] Casey Golden: It seems so basic, but yet at the same time, like, but nobody's doing it. , Right. Is to like really go back into that core of, of all those customers.[00:12:54] Ricardo Belmar: And I, and I thought that a lot of these DTC would have used search when. came up, right, to try to get that initial customer acquisition. So I, I find it kind of curious that if, maybe I'm wrong about that, but I, it seems to me that that's one of the original tactics I expect to see DTC brands use at the start, maybe they don't come back to it, to your point.[00:13:15] Polly Wong: You know, we don't see a fine level of segmentation and targeting honestly, within digital media buying. You know, I, I think about digital media agencies and I think of them as master tinkerers, and I can almost just see all the people behind the scenes, almost like behind a clock, you know, turning the dial a little bit this way and a little bit that way.[00:13:33] And it's really about bids and CPMs and it's about creative and frequency and the type of ad. It's really not about. Okay, This is our cheerleader cohort. This is our loyalist cohort. This is our, you know, former cheerleader cohort meeting. This used to be a best customer, and now she's not a best customer.[00:13:52] What percent of our spend are we going to target against her? What should be the target cost to retain? You know, the industry talks about the target cost of acquisition, you know, the cost to acquire a new customer, but you never hear anyone talk about the cost to retain a customer. And I think we're gonna have to see a major shift in how people think.[00:14:11] I think that's the one thing in my, my 25 years in retail. I think there has to be an inherent pivot for D to C brands to embrace some of the real kind of retail operation discipline that has existed, you know, for many years and has allowed companies to exist for decades and to become billion dollar retailers.[00:14:30] And that definitely includes financial planning. It includes inventory planning, merchandise planning, and definitely really thinking about, you know, your target customer and your segmentation and CRM and how you're allocating those dollars.[00:14:46] Casey Golden: I always say, if you spent [00:14:49] half as much time retaining your customers as you spent all of these resources on acquiring them, you'd have a completely different business.[00:14:58] Polly Wong: Yeah. You know, and I think we we're seeing, I think it's actually kind of exciting. There are definitely always some D to C brands who are leading in the space and we see. Really three major growth strategies and definitely activating more channels for both CRM and for active acquisition. You know, testing TikTok, testing connected TV or streaming tv, leaning into print for both acquisition and crm.[00:15:22] And so definitely activating more marketing channels is an important opportunity for D to C brands. But also, I can emphasize enough, and I touched on this earlier, as a matter of fact, the more product you put in front of. Across categories and price points, the more revenue you will drive from her. And I always tell people, I learned two things in my years, at Williams Sonoma Inc.[00:15:45] When I was on the client side. The first is that the best way to drive response rates is to have a range of product across categories and price points. So, okay, you know, she bought a sofa from you, what is she gonna buy next? And that's why you see these types of brands have an incredible assortment in tabletop and seasonal decor and all of those other categories, bed and bath.[00:16:06] The second thing I learned at Williams Sonoma I tell people, is that on my second day on the job Chuck Williams himself, so I'm dating myself a little bit, he said to me, Polly, you know how you sell a $200 toaster? You put a $400 toaster next to it? And I never forgot that [00:16:19] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And, it completely makes sense. I mean, I to, I have to give credit to William Sonoma, right? Who has, mastered that technique of positioning and curating the right selection at different price points to drive a particular one that you might wanna drive, I think they, I've an amazing job at doing that, and that's certainly a lesson a lot of DTC brands would need to learn.[00:16:40] And, and also kind of speaks. Theory, I've always put out that, you know, so many of these DTC brands that came to be, know, is digitally native, know, wanted to just disrupt one particular product they started with that one product and I always felt that, you know, the one question that does not get asked when they're seeing some initial success, right?[00:17:02] They're getting a lot of new customers, they weren't thinking through, okay, what's the frequency with which these customers I've paid to [00:17:10] Polly Wong: Yes. [00:17:11] Ricardo Belmar: now in some way are going to buy again the [00:17:14] Polly Wong: Yes, exactly. [00:17:17] How often? ,[00:17:18] Ricardo Belmar: most things people don't buy every week.[00:17:20] Polly Wong: Absolutely. So how often do you need to buy a mattress and how often do you need to buy a suitcase? Right? Thinking [00:17:26] Ricardo Belmar: Two. two, good examples.[00:17:27] Polly Wong: popular, [00:17:28] Ricardo Belmar: good examples. [00:17:28] Adopting Basic Retail Operations[00:17:28] Polly Wong: Brands that we've seen now struggle to grow. Absolutely. You know there are some really great smart brands out there. You know, we've seen a lot of the really high growth soft goods companies, so bedding companies, you know, there's a reason why they launch into lounge wear, right?[00:17:43] There's a reason why they launch into bath, right? So you see these bedding soft good companies launch into other categories because, okay, so I bought a set of sheets. I bought, you know, a beautiful comforter, but what am I gonna buy next from you? And you've seen home brands lean into apparel.[00:18:00] You've seen apparel brands lean into home. You know, we're going to continue to see that. Absolutely. But honestly, you know, we were just putting together some strategies internally for clients cuz there are, as I said earlier, a significant amount of headwinds, I think facing brands and retailers in the next six to 12 months.[00:18:18] There's a lot of really inexpensive ways that don't require a lot of research and development that don't require a lot of product development and long timelines. We were doing an assessment for a women's apparel company. And we were looking at their tops and we were looking at tops and the price points and the sizes and the colors of their competitive set.[00:18:38] And as we were looking at the tops, we realized, you know, you sell that long sleeve basic tee in four colors, but on average your competitors sell their long sleeve basic tee in eight to 10 colors. And also you sell yours for $8 more on average. And so maybe if you could take and just add color ways, take your top selling.[00:18:59] Products and add new colorways. Think about, you know, how much would a four, $6 price cut to be competitive? What kind of incremental revenue would that bring? And I think it's that type of merchandise analysis and merchandise planning and inventory management that honestly is a discipline that D to C brands don't inherently have.[00:19:17] So it's time, as I said earlier, to hire some good old fashioned retail operations [00:19:21] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's an [00:19:22] That. an excellent point and [00:19:23] it's one that I think that has never been quite so obvious, right, to the DTC brands, because they had that single minded, I have this one product that we're gonna disrupt. It's this one product category, this one selection we're gonna disrupt. And there wasn't enough thought to, Well, what happens next? After you've done that? [00:19:37] I, do wanna ask you one question because you know, when Casey and I were thinking of, what we, we were gonna learn from you in this episode, and we thought, it really tells a story about that we think of as, you know, making old media, new media in a way, in a sense that as you've been describing to us now, different marketing mix and moving from a lot of pure.[00:19:57] Digital marketing spend to other perhaps more, more traditional, maybe some non-traditional, because I heard connected TV in there as well. But I'm really intrigued by the success your clients are having in print and with catalogs, which call that maybe the most traditional option a lot of brands can go with.[00:20:14] and when we've spoken to you before, you've mentioned that. When people hear catalog, sort of have an idea in their head of what that might look like. But what you're now with your, your, your clients is not exactly the same kind of format. I, I think it's a much. And maybe you could tell us a little bit more about what's evolved in this, in the print catalog space.[00:20:33] Polly Wong: Yeah. They're not your mother's catalogs anymore. You know, it used to be that you have a hundred page catalog and you've got, you know, five to 10 items per page and you put the whole store inside the catalog. And it used to be that, 80% of catalogs went to women over 55. And she only bought what she saw on the page.[00:20:51] And there's been just really a fundamental shift. First of all, there is a significant amount of print pieces folded pieces, catalogs going in home, The 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds. And so now the catalog isn't something you, you shop from the, the catalog or the direct mail piece is a channel driver and it's driving her to the store to buy or is driving her to e-commerce to buy.[00:21:15] And over the years, as we've analyzed the results, we've seen and found that actually only about a third of the product that she buys after she gets the piece was depicted in the piece, meaning that two outta three times what she buys was not in the actual piece, but it drove her to the site or it drove her to the store.[00:21:34] So she thought she wanted one sweater, she got to the site, she bought a different sweater, So as we began to understand that there was a new purpose to print that really it was to drive her to a channel to engage and then to buy, right? Always measuring, of course, the ROAS, actually, I think it's ironic, catalogers were really the original D to C brands and catalogers were always performance based marketers.[00:21:57] So I like to throw that out there. But today, especially for our fashion clients and our home brand clients, definitely catalogs look more like look books they're more aspirational, more lifestyle photography, more storytelling. You know, we actually one of the most successful catalogs in history and the thousands and thousands and thousands of campaigns we measured, when you open up this catalog, the first two spreads are actually just really an aspirational story.[00:22:25] And yet it was extremely productive as measured by sales. And so really you're here to engage the customer and to drive her to a channel to buy, and that is the ultimate goal. Now, what we've found, depending on the product assortment, depending on the price point, depending on the target consumer, First of all, you don't have to send a full, so full, huge catalog anymore, right?[00:22:46] So most of our clients are sending catalogs that are maybe 28 or 36 pages, but not, you know, 80 plus pages. So you don't have to send her as many pages. You don't have to put the whole store. In the catalog, you wanna just say, Here's our our new products, here's our best sellers, and you wanna be compelling and you wanna send her to the channel to buy that she wants to buy in.[00:23:08] And then also we've seen a whole new lifeline because print is acting as this channel driver and you don't have to put the full assortment in front of her. We've seen an incredible amount of success with folded pieces. You know, here is our top five new products of the season. Check it out online, check it out in store.[00:23:25] And so we've found that there's a different messaging and creative strategy also because of this kind of new purpose and how consumers are interacting with print. And I should say that it, it has been an amazing ride. Really just, you know, hundreds of new brands in the mail the last couple of years.[00:23:42] But, you know, starting over a decade ago, we launched brands like Shutterfly, Minted, Revolve, Zappos, One Kings Lane. You know, we Allbirds, right? We started with Allbirds had zero customers. You know, over a decade ago we launched all of these brands into the mail. And so some folks I think already could see it, you know, early on.[00:24:03] I think what's happened is that the cost of digital marketing has become extremely competitive and saturated and promotional and expensive, and you can't always reach who you wanna reach. There's an amazing amount of real estate in print to tell your story and to put your product, and also it's effective for both.[00:24:20] Crm. I would say that mailing customers is like printing money, but also for new customer acquisition. We tend to work with premium brands and you know, to get someone to buy a $300 sweater from you when they've never heard of your brand before, the amount of real estate goes a long way in convincing new customers to buy.[00:24:36] Ricardo Belmar: That's a good point cuz in those scenarios, right, you're really asking that new customer to buy your story as much as your product.[00:24:43] Polly Wong: Absolutely. And you know, I think there's an amount of credibility and authority just as stores give D to C brands credibility. I think the same is can be set of print and I like to say that millennials can spot a manufactured brand from a mile away. And I think that there's an amount of real estate that you have to tell your story.[00:25:03] And if it's authentic, like we have clients, brands like Outer known who just have incredible, authentic story around sustainability and apparel. And a really, you know, just a huge commitment to that as a business. And they're able to build that story with their community through print [00:25:19] On Opening Stores[00:25:19] Casey Golden: one of the initiatives that's been happening lately that has me very excited, just cuz I think we all kind of started in stores, is more of these digitally native brands or pure play brands actually opening up stores and more pop up. I'm a big advocate of the in-store experience. Not that many of us have had one lately, but with the world closed for a little bit.[00:25:42] But I think it's a great opportunity to actually connect. Are you, are you helping them essentially kind of understand where they should be potentially opening up stores or opening up popups or working on that strategy based on, because you guys know so much about where the consumer lives and that community, [00:26:02] Polly Wong: Certainly you can build models regarding, you know, around trade areas to understand where your customers are at today and where your perspective best customers are at. I think to answer your original question though, you know, around just this kind of continued push of D to C brands in stores, honestly, it's really, really very simple.[00:26:26] in any category, more than 50% of sales are still in physical stores. So if you're not selling either in your own stores or on the floor at Nordstrom's, for example, if you're not building your wholesale network, then you're missing out on 50% of your market. And so that's really what it comes down to. I think one of the things that I find more encouraging today about the retail landscape than I did before the pandemic.[00:26:54] Before the pandemic. You just saw almost an absurd level of store openings from DTC brands. Brands that were suddenly opening 20, 30, 40 stores a year. When you open stores that quickly, you're not going into just a markets, you're not negotiating the best real estate deals. You aren't taking the time to build the models to understand where your customers are and where your best.[00:27:17] New perspective customers are, but I think what's great to see is I'm seeing a more cautious approach. I'm seeing the D to C brands understand they need to have a physical footprint and that maybe at the same time, now they're only opening up five to seven stores a year. They're also exploring partnerships with department stores and other retailers to be on their floor.[00:27:38] We have so many brands that we work with who sell on the floor at Anthropology, for example. And so I think that most of our clients have realized you have to have that physical presence in order to reach your customer where she's at when she's shopping, and also because it's a significant business opportunity.[00:27:55] I also think, I mean, there's no question, you know, there is, I think, better real estate deals to be had in 'A' markets because of the amount of store closings in the last couple of years, I think there are still some significant opportunities in terms of finding the right space, the right price with the right consumer.[00:28:12] And so I think that's very encouraging. I think from what I've last seen, this is gonna be the first year in a very, very long time where the number of store openings will actually outpace the number of store closings [00:28:22] Casey Golden: Yeah. I kind of saw, you know, it's nice to see that this, this natural transition, essentially it's all coming back to all these different channels and touch points where there was that moment. where it's just like you just need to be online and everybody else is doing it wrong, and then you just see it come full circle where they're starting to join. We've already went through this cycle.[00:28:45] Polly Wong: Well, you said it yourself. Yeah, you said it yourself. What's old is new again, honestly, to me, advertising on podcasts, it's radio. to me, connected TV is TV advertising, right? Like it's all we've been through these channels. Even outdoor media is having a huge resurgence right out of home media. And so I think that, you know, what it really comes down to is that the most sophisticated marketers have realized that you need a channel mix.[00:29:13] Online, offline, you need to be where your customer is at. You need to have multiple distribution channels, you need to have multiple products. And I think that the high growth brands, you know, have realized that, and I think everyone else is beginning to learn as well.[00:29:25] On marketplaces [00:29:25] Ricardo Belmar: So let me ask you too, on, on, that Polly, one of the areas that I, I think is also interesting here is how these brands leverage different marketplaces you know, within that channel mix. I mean, what, what are your thoughts there and how do you advise brands around marketplaces?[00:29:39] Polly Wong: Definitely D to C brands have had a lot of, you know, trepidation around the marketplaces. I definitely think though that they're going to be forced to consider it. we've already found is, we've just discussed that you can't have an e-commerce only business. And so we saw these e-commerce brands open up stores, and then we saw them add wholesale partners. And so now really the last major distribution channel as a source of revenue growth is the marketplaces.[00:30:03] And historically, D to C brands have been very protective of their brand's message and of their new customers. And they don't want to let anyone kind of expose their brand other than how they want it presented. However, I do think that the pressure to continue to drive revenue with all of these headwinds and because the reality is that all consumers are on the marketplaces, and you know, now we've got Macy's leaning into their marketplace.[00:30:30] I mean, every single major retailer is going to have their own marketplace online as well. I think you have to be there. I think, you know, we're finding clients kind of tiptoe into it. They're testing different strategies. They might only put part of their assortment within the marketplaces. They might actually develop a specific collection for the marketplaces.[00:30:50] So definitely I think they're cautious. But I think that they're going to be forced to consider trying it in ways they might not have a few years ago because they've gotta drive revenue growth. And because there are so many, you know, headwinds, unfortunately at the moment,[00:31:05] Retail Media Networks[00:31:05] Ricardo Belmar: So one of the other big trends that we're talking about this season on our show are retail media networks. We've, dedicated an episode on it. I was just at the grocery shop event and that was a huge, huge trend there as well.[00:31:17] So I'm curious, what, what's your recommendation for brands around you know, whether it's with the marketplaces that they may be new to or as they're getting into stores and, and wholesale agreements there? How are you advising DTC brands around retail media networks?[00:31:31] Polly Wong: You know, it's interesting. I don't think that we'll see D to C brands leverage their own assets and their own impressions and their own emails and their own social for advertising income and revenue. Because D to C brands usually are not big enough to actually make it worthwhile to suddenly open up their own assets for advertising, but certainly as it relates to the really large retailers and the real large marketplaces, I don't know why you wouldn't choose to advertise there.[00:32:01] You know, in order to make that advertising work, those platforms have to offer the level of targeting and segmentation that will drive the performance to justify the CPMs and the media spend. Why would you not test it? I mean one, I think really positive quality of DTC brands is that usually they're willing to test anything.[00:32:19] And I think in this case, not only why would you not test it and consider it, as long as you know that your target consumer is there from a sociodemographic profile perspective. But in some cases, if you are going to play, for example, on the marketplaces, you have to buy media on the marketplaces. It's not like if you build that, they will come.[00:32:37] You've gotta have the advertising dollars to actually support your sales on the marketing place on the marketplace.[00:32:42] Casey Golden: for a lot of our listeners. I'm sure they've been nodding their heads as as you speak. There's a lot of question marks though still [00:32:49] for anybody who hasn't been looking at their, their media spend in this way. What should brands be looking at a D to C or D to C brands? Be looking at a media spend breakdown.[00:33:01] You know, what portion are you seeing more of a trend? Because we see it's so scary to move a portion of your business over to something new, even if it's starting to break, There's what are, what do you see more as a breakdown? Just so people can go ahead and make the shift and just close their eyes and go[00:33:21] Polly Wong: Yeah. large brands that we see, large brands and retailers that we see doing well, that are significant in size and have e-commerce and have stores, they've really shifted to almost a 40, 40 20 marketing mix where 40% of their spend is digital marketing. 40% is offline, which could include actually tv, radio, print, out of home media.[00:33:47] And then 20% is really PR partnerships, sponsorships, influencers, you know, things around content and community. So, You know, to 40% across the digital channels, 40% across all kind of other, you know non-digital channels. And then what's really encouraging to see and smaller brands can't afford often to spend, you know, top of funnel.[00:34:12] But as a matter of fact, high growth brands do spend top of funnel. And so you'll see the. Companies are beginning to carve out 10 to 20% of their spend. So they get the pr, they get the influencers, they get the sponsorships and the partnerships that allows them to build community.[00:34:27] Launching Direct Mail[00:34:27] Casey Golden: So if there's a, if there's a direct to consumer brand right now that's listening what's the ballpark range they'd need to be? Looking at for budgeting to launch a campaign a, a direct mail campaign.[00:34:40] Polly Wong: Okay. Well, I thought you were gonna ask a bigger picture question. What percent of top line revenue do you have to spend high growth, emerging brands are spending, you know, 20 to 25% of top line revenue on marketing. Mature businesses spend closer to 10 to 15% of top line revenue on marketing and big retailers and wholesale brands might only spend, you know, six to 10% of their top line revenue on marketing.[00:35:10] But definitely if you're an emerging DTC brand today, you're definitely spending 20 to 25% of your top line revenue. So for every hundred dollars, you're spending 20 to 25 dollars. To get that. So just in terms of what you have to spend as an emerging brand to get traction. Absolutely. If you think you can build a brand from scratch that's spending, you know, $10 on the a hundred dollars, it'll never happen.[00:35:34] Unfortunately, those days are, are past us in terms of, you know, really testing print, well here at Ballardi Wong, we only, you know, we run the largest, you know, Scalable, sophisticated programs in the country. So we don't do anything small, cheaper, schlossky. So we're, we're a little bit more on the premium side here . Really to get.[00:35:52] A solid proof of concept with all of the industry best practices in place for both CRM and acquisition. You're looking at about a 75 to a hundred thousand dollars test in print and we've launched over 250 DTC brands into the mail successfully. And even little baby ones with a few thousand customers and they're all spending that much money.[00:36:11] So on their first campaign still less expensive, you know, still half as much as a three week TV campaign. So,[00:36:18] Casey Golden: mean hey, I mean, I mean that could just be one post by a tick, a certain, a couple TikTok influencers too. So, I [00:36:25] mean, you [00:36:26] know, [00:36:26] Polly Wong: That's the, you know, here's the ironic thing. You can put a beautiful full size catalog in front of a consumer for 85 cents. Your cost per click nowadays is, you know, two or $3. So the thing that's really crazy is that you can mail. 4, 5, 6 catalogs to a highly targeted audience for the cost of one click.[00:36:47] So I think that that's, you know, it seems expensive, but actually, quality touch, yes, it's [00:36:54] Casey Golden: I agree. And it's really just being able to say like, instead of spending that hundred k, the 200,000 on this, let's just go ahead and move it over here and run a test. Because I think everything that you've really kind of ran through through this conversation and what you guys are doing is just, it's, it's incredibly compelling. And it's a lot of things that potentially these customer bases or the brands are just not as familiar with because they don't have a lot of seasoned retailers in their company orgs. And so a lot of it, we see somebody doing something or like, you really only have one product. Like you do realize that there's like issues with this who gave you. You know, and then now those [00:37:43] conversations [00:37:44] Polly Wong: think, well, you know what's gonna be really interesting to see is that it's not gonna be very easy. We're already finding this. We actually do due diligence on D to C transactions because of all of our experience at Belardi Wong. And not this summer, but last summer we worked on six transactions, and this summer we didn't work on any transactions.[00:38:03] I think very quickly. It's going to be a very tough landscape for raising dollars at this moment in time. And already the industry has become a little bit weary because some of the evaluations and the losses that have happened over the last couple of years. And so I think companies are gonna have to be scrappier and smarter because it's not gonna be so easy to get someone to give you, you know, 20, $30 million just like that. [00:38:25] Casey Golden: Yeah. no, I mean yeah, I think it's great. I mean, I, I think that this is, I'm really excited to see some comments once this kind of goes, gets pushed out because I know that this is gonna be some new content that they haven't really thought about as even an option think it's [00:38:39] Using Influencers [00:38:39] Ricardo Belmar: I I, do wanna go back to one thing that you mentioned in the 40 40 20 split where you had in that 20%, you know, kind of lump together in, in pr, things like influencers, and that tends to get a lot of attention. Around, you know, what brands are spending with influencers and how they're using them.[00:38:56] Are they on TikTok yet? What? are you seeing there that's actually successful?[00:39:01] Polly Wong: You know, the truth is, is that for most clients you know, influencers can reach a small target community. But we haven't seen for most clients a huge amount of scale unless you're willing to spend, a few hundred thousand dollars, with an influencer who really has significant reach and real influence on what consumers are buying.[00:39:25] We just haven't found that for most of our clients, that actually influencers can drive any kind of sustainable scale. So maybe you pay a lot of money and you know, Mary Jane, the influencer does a series of posts maybe over two weeks about some of your new product. Maybe you get a momentary surge in sales, but it's not sustainable and you can't continue to spend those kinds of dollars for those really high touch posts. And so the one challenge that we do find with influencer marketing is it takes a lot of leg work to implement and it is often not truly scalable. It's also kind of interesting to see what's going on on TikTok, because definitely, you know, that that cut meta spend is shifting to TikTok. But TikTok is also hard to measure for the same reasons that it's hard to measure meta, right? Because of platform changes and challenges. And for the most part, because it's hard to measure the return on ad spend, on TikTok, it tends to be a top of funnel channel. Well, I can tell you that in a recession the money for top of funnel marketing is going to dry up very quickly.[00:40:37] And so you're gonna be focused on those channels that can drive real performance and ROAS because you just don't have enough funding to, to, to, to spend on those top channels. So it'll be really interesting to see, over the next six months how advertising dollars shift around. I usually feel pretty comfortable giving my predictions for retail sales and e-commerce sales, but honestly, at this point, just hand me an ball. I have [00:41:01] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's where [00:41:02] Polly Wong: I'm gonna continue to be I'm gonna continue to cross my fingers and my toes and hope that at least for our clients, that affluent consumers are still spending [00:41:09] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. And so, so on what you just said, right around top of funnel and those, is there an argument to be made that if you're going to spend on influencers or TikTok, that you're, you might wanna save that for when you have a new product launch versus just trying to drive sales of an existing product? [00:41:27] Polly Wong: Absolutely. It's not something [00:41:29] Ricardo Belmar: Right. Because you scale it right [00:41:31] Polly Wong: you're gonna turn it on. You can't, you're gonna, you're gonna turn it on maybe three or four times. You know, in the world of retail, we think about five seasons winter. Spring, summer, fall, and holiday. And so you're really going to lean in just a few weeks of each season into your influencer marketing and that spend and really, lean into your peak sales curve to drive those new product sales and to get that reach.[00:41:55] Ricardo Belmar: Yeah. If that makes sense. That makes complete sense. So, so last question for you Polly, and if, someone were to come and ask you right now, what's your top recommendation when you think about growth strategies for a DTC brand, what would you tell 'em?[00:42:07] Polly Wong: Considering the economic uncertainty, the headwinds and the rising costs across the entire p and l, I would say that my top two recommendations are to one, lean into crm. Make sure that you're activating all five channels targeting your existing customer base, and then two, Because you're targeting your existing customers, continue to focus on your product category expansion, you know, what is your range of product across categories and price points.[00:42:37] Consumers may start spending down they may be more value focused than ever. So, you know, what is your good, better, best merchandise strategy, right? Not only are you adding simple things like more color skews to your long sleeve t-shirt, but you know, is there a good, better, best strategy for your product?[00:42:53] Motorcycle clients we've have worked with have done this extremely well. There's a good, better, best motorcycle helmet and the best one has got bluetooth and all kinds of fun things in it. And in, in addition to keeping your, your, your head safe. So definitely I think, leaning into your customer file is a tremendous, profitable asset.[00:43:11] And then just giving existing customers more to buy. I do think there's plenty of time to lean into new customer acquisi. You know, as we begin to see some of the, the economic uncertainty clear up, hopefully by spring, I actually am quite confident that I do think things will level out and I think we'll be back sailing along by spring of 2023 is, is my hope.[00:43:33] So fingers crossed. [00:43:34] Ricardo Belmar: I think you maybe, may be right about that. And it kind of says that if I kind of read into, the two areas you highlighted for a lot of DTC brands, there's probably some new hires they need to look for to help them with those strategies, particularly around merchandising those new products.[00:43:47] Products like you talked about earlier.[00:43:49] Polly Wong: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you have to, and also to pay attention to the competition. You know, it's amazing to me. I think brands do tend to be inwardly focused and. You know, maybe now people will have the time and to kind of step back and say, how does my assortment look compared to my competitors?[00:44:06] What are my price points? What are my size ranges? What are my number of colors? You know what is my returns policy? You know, how do I stand up against the competition? Everybody's gonna have to just be a little bit smarter. [00:44:16] Ricardo Belmar: I think that's another great point. I mean, I, even on for traditional retailers, I, I can't count how many times in the past I've been in, in a room with retailers and asked them, Well, when was the last time you walked one of your competitors' stores to see what they were doing? you know, I, I, I don't know sometimes whether I wanted to laugh or cry at the fact that they were just crickets in the room and nobody responded when I asked that question.[00:44:38] so there's definitely some truth to that.[00:44:40] Polly Wong: Absolutely. [00:44:43] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you So [00:44:44] discuss. I'm probably gonna go down as one of the, our, our most commented episodes with so much in good information and, and advice and I think really unique details that you've helped surface here for, for DTC brands as they grow into, I would call becoming a, full channel retailer in a sense.[00:45:03] and really didn't, know, cover a lot of ground around making old media, new media, like we started to talk about earlier.[00:45:09] Polly Wong: Great. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been fun this afternoon to connect with you and I, I hope you both have a, a lovely fall season.[00:45:16] Casey Golden: Definitely. For our listeners who have been furiously taking notes during this episode, what's the best reach way for them to reach out to you or follow your company?[00:45:26] Polly Wong: Yeah, obviously we're on the social channels, but if you wanna reach out through the contact us page at Belardi Wong, if you would like to talk to me directly or have any questions or comments for me directly, I know that they'll, they'll make their way to me and I'm always happy to chat and connect.[00:45:39] Casey Golden: Great.[00:45:40] Ricardo Belmar: Well, thank you again, Polly, for joining us. We hope to have you back soon.[00:45:43] Polly Wong: Thank you so much. Have a great one.[00:45:45] Casey Golden: You too. That's a wrap, Ricardo.[00:45:48] Show Closing[00:45:48] Casey Golden: We hope you enjoyed our show and we can't ask you enough to please give us a five star rating and review on apple podcast to help us grow and bring you more great episodes. If you don't wanna miss a minute of what's next, be sure to smash that subscribe button in your favorite podcast player. And don't forget to check out our show notes for handy links and more deets. I'm your host, Casey Golden. [00:46:18] Ricardo Belmar: And if you'd like to learn more about the two of us, follow us on Twitter at Casey c golden and Ricardo underscore Belmar, or find us on LinkedIn. Be sure to follow the show on LinkedIn and Twitter at retail razor. Plus our YouTube channel for videos of each episode and bonus content. I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar.[00:46:35] Casey Golden: Thanks for joining us.[00:46:36] Ricardo Belmar: And remember, there's never been a better time to be in retail. If you cut through the clutter until next time, this is the retail razor show. 

Our phones and social media are ever-changing, so sometimes a privacy check up is in order. Check out today's episode for a few tips & a hidden threat!  Download my free Parenting in the Digital Age Resource guide! CLICK HERE or go to this link: https://www.dollydenson.com/digitalresources and be sure to opt in to my email list to be the first to know when my Be THAT Mom Movement Method course, your toolkit and roadmap for all things digital when raising kids today, is released!!    FREE DOWNLOAD: Tips for using Bark + Digital Resources FREE DOWNLOAD: Digital Resources For all my top tips & tools go to https://www.dollydenson.com/store DIGITAL RESOURCE TOOLS:   Grab your Troomi phone today! Click here or use code BETHATMOM at https://troomi.com/ to grab $30 off your kid's Troomi phone!  BARK subscription CLICK HERE (Use code BETHATMOM for 20% off & 7 day free trial) MSpy CLICK HERE (Use code BTMOM10 for a 10% discount on the 3 month package!) 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Speaker 2 (00:35): Welcome to your source for tips, tools and support to help you be that mom that is tuned in and proactive for yourself, your family, and for the wild ride of raising kids in this digital age. Inspired by a mother's love with a relatable real life. Proud to be that Mom Flare. This is the Be That Mom Movement with your host Dolly Denson. Speaker 1 (01:00): Hey friends, did you hear there is an app that will transform the safety of your kids' smartphone and technology use. It is my favorite way to sleep, easy at night and have peace of mind because it is monitoring my kids' activity online without me being in their business. It is the Bark app and yes, bark like a dog, Bark, bark, bark. It tells you when there's something that you need to be concerned about starting at a small fee each month, you can protect your whole family across all devices. Get connected with Bar today. Use code, Be that mom for 20% off your subscription for life and get a seven day free trial to check it out. So welcome back to the Be That Mom Movement podcast. I'm so glad that you are here. Again, thank you so much for your support of this podcast and reaching out to me and telling me how much this has helped you, whatever episode it is that you're tuning into. Speaker 1 (01:50): So I hope today's episode will be another one that's gonna give you some peace of mind and help you have some tips and tools for you to manage the Wild Ride that is raising kids in the digital world. But wanna give you a quick disclaimer before I start and that is that Kids on social media is always a risk. So I will give you some tips of things that I find helpful, but I give that to you as an educational place. I in no way want to make you think that by just doing these things, that you're gonna keep your kids safe. There's always a risk, it's always changing. And so therefore it is something that I believe you need to approach with a layered approach, which is something that I talk about in my course that I'm about to release and I just want you to take these tips. Speaker 1 (02:39): But don't take them as an end all Beall. It is always evolving and changing and there's always concern and those that are out there trying to get to our kiddos are savvy and they will find a way. So if your kids are on social media, just please be vigilant and please set up a village and a layered approach to how you're monitoring and what you're doing. So on that note, I also wanna say that as my kids have gotten older and we've gone through the major things that we have that have brought me to make this podcast and be really passionate about this topic and to always kind of, you know, be listening and being out there to bring information to you, I just wanna say how important it is now that my kids are older and I can look back on those years how important it is to be very vigilant and also to not rush the smartphone and the giving of social media in those early years. Speaker 1 (03:39): The years where parents are giving it unsuspecting and not realizing how much of an influence it is. And the reason I say that is because each one of our kids, if you've listened to my story, you know this, but my kids are about four years apart each and the oldest did not have the digital things emerge and be as pervasive in her life until she was up into the high school years. The next one had it younger and then the next one had it even younger. And so I had the unique perspective of seeing how pervasive and influential that could be. And I also believe that there's a difference in genders and I've got two girls and a boy so I do and did see that there was the influence was different for each one of them. And it's different on the different apps as well. Speaker 1 (04:25): And if I had, like I've said before, a magic time machine, I absolutely would go back and change the decisions that I made. But the influence that is there, especially now, it's so very insidious and I saw a post today that talked about if your child is doing this and believing this, take their phone and all social media and digital access away for a month and have them work on just being themself without that outside influence of all of the, you know, talks of the time right now. And see if they still believe that. And the sentiment of that post without saying the specific topic that it was talking about is that so many of these things are so pervasive in our kids' lives now that they have trouble knowing what they actually think and what they actually feel and what their passions are because they're spending their lives distracted and it's sucking them away from the normal childhood milestones and things that we may view as play and you know, as just things that they do as a kid. Speaker 1 (05:27): But they're truly things that are meant to be there to help them in the stepping stone that help them to form into the adult they are meant to be and find the passions and the interest and the things that they're good at, their gifts are being stunted because they are not being allowed to have those things. So one of the best decisions that we ever made with our youngest was to pull the phone and all social media away. And now that he is 17, it is amazing the respect that he has for those apps. And yes, I've allowed him to be back on Instagram and TikTok and Snapchat now, but for years he was not on those things and didn't want to be on those things. But at middle school age I did let him have those things and it was not a good influence. Speaker 1 (06:26): And same thing for the girls. So while I talk about privacy checkup and things that you can do for your kids, I do want to stress that despite the, you know, the stigma of being that mom, it eventually will be a place of strength for your kid when you stand your ground, when you be the mom and when you be that mom that is vigilant and concerned about these things with your kids, a kid you not, the moms that are not vigilant about these things probably have no clue the influence and they will likely crash and burn like I did with my family and I did things the hard way. So be that mom and be that mom that shares with your mom friends about the influences about the things that you're learning. Share this podcast if you can leave me a review on the podcast cuz that will help it to rank higher with all the podcast things you know, so that it will be pushed up as something that's recommended so that more moms can hear this and get the tools and the confidence that they need in order to stand their ground to be the parent and to be that mom that is there being vigilant and not just letting the digital pervasiveness of our society raise their child. Speaker 1 (07:49): Okay, so I hope I've probably overstated that a little bit, but I hope that makes sense because I do want to talk about the privacy checkup, but I also do not want to in any way make it seem like this is an end all Beall and I definitely don't want you to take your guard down and someone out there wanting to do some type of negative influence on your child to get to your child. So that being said, let's talk about a couple of different aspects that I think will be helpful for you. So the first thing is phone settings. So if you or your kid has a smartphone, you know it's always being updated by you know, Apple or Android. So when you have an update I encourage you to go into the settings, you know, go into the update and see what's actually being updated and then go into your settings and check, you know, for privacy and for tracking and for things like that I recently updated my iPhone and you go to the settings page and go to the privacy and security and there one of the big things is location services. Speaker 1 (08:57): So especially for your kid, click on that location services and look to see which apps are allowed to see where they are. And this is very, very huge in terms of Snapchat specifically, I would make sure that for Snapchat that is turned off and you can also do this in the Snapchat settings as well. But, so look at location services, scroll down and look at the different apps and see what they have access to. And then under, let's see, where's it at on the iPhone there's a safety check now where you can manage who has access to like your location and different things like if you shared your location and the maps, this is a place where you can remove that sharing your location type thing. So lots of different options there to be aware of. But you can go through under privacy and security and just look at all the different options. Speaker 1 (09:55): And you can even do an app privacy report, which basically will tell you, I just did this recently. It will record data and sensor access and then app and website network activity and the most contacted, uh, most frequently contacted domains. And then it gives you information on when your location was reported and how often it's been used, what domains have been accessed, those type of things. So lots of information there in the smartphone. Again, not an end all Beall, but one of the biggest things probably would be the location services to check. Okay, so now that you've looked at your phone or your kid's phone, the next thing is the social media. And each one of these is different and is always changing, but I'm just gonna talk about Instagram, TikTok and Snapchat because those are the most common that our kids are on. But for Instagram you can go to like when you're on your profile page or their profile page, click on the three little lines at the top and then go to settings and then go to privacy. Speaker 1 (11:03): And there you can make them a private account, you can limit post with certain words, cannot be seen. You can make it to where their stories cannot be remixed or made into reals or shared all of those things according to what your preferences are. And then below the privacy setting there is a supervision setting. And so this one you can actually supervise a teen that has Instagram. So you just follow the prompts and it will have you and the teen set that up to where you can supervise who they're interacting with, what they're posting, what they're doing. So that is a new option that I uh, hadn't seen before. Maybe it's been there for a little while cause I hadn't looked at that lately, but that's definitely something to check out if you do have a teen that is on Instagram. The other thing that you can do with Instagram that I did years ago was to have my teens log in as another account. Speaker 1 (11:58): So when you click on your name, if you don't have more than one account, you can add more than one account onto your Instagram app and then click on your name at the top and you can add an account and then you can toggle back and forth between their account and your account. So in that, with that you can see their messages and their posts and all that they're doing. You can check who their followers are, who they're following and all of that. So that is what I did when mine were younger and I was wanting to monitor what they were doing. Okay, so then the next thing that I wanna talk about is TikTok. And TikTok is, and at the end of this, I'm gonna tell you the biggest thing that is a hidden threat for all of these that I want you to be aware of if you're not already. Speaker 1 (12:43): But TikTok is one of those that I think is a very slippery slope and I actually don't recommend that you have a child that's younger on TikTok because of the thing that I'm gonna mention as a hidden threat in a moment. But if you do have a kiddo on TikTok, if you do choose to do that, if you go to hold on, go to profile, go to the three little lines at the top, go to settings and privacy and then you can go to security and log in. I don't think that's it. Hold on, let me see. There is a privacy section and then there is age related settings for users and it may be because I, it knows I'm an adult account, okay, privacy there. So you can make it a private account and you can turn off where your account's suggested to others, you can turn off comments, allow or not allow mentions and tags and direct messages. Speaker 1 (13:38): You can put who their, their story is shared with who can do it you, different things like that. So has all of those. And then there's also a TikTok for younger users that you can set up. However, I don't recommend that, I honestly don't. If that is something that you want to do, that is an option as well for TikTok. So both ig, TikTok and Snapchat location services is huge, huge, huge. Make sure that you check that in settings and that it's not something that they have turned on. Okay, so then the last one that I wanna talk about as far as social media goes is Snapchat. And I don't even know if I have Snapchat on my phone. Snapchat is confusing to me, I've never been able to understand it but I know it is where kids communicate, it's kind of crazy. Okay, so the things with Snapchat is when you're in the, you can go to the settings, which is the gear icon and I kid you not, I do not know how to operate Snapchat very well and usually when I, okay, if you click on the page or it looks like you're gonna take, gonna take a picture, click on the little profile on the upper left and then click on the gear icon upper right and then scroll down to the who can section. Speaker 1 (14:51): Okay? So if you scroll down to privacy controls, it looks like they changed some of the names on it, but go to privacy controls and you can put who can contact you, view the story, see my location, see me in quick add and then the family center. So highly, highly, highly recommend that you check that if you have a kiddo on Snapchat. There has been instances where predators have been able to actually go to kids' houses to meet up with them. Drug dealers use Snapchat to reach kids and sell them drugs. And there's a very prominent person out there and I can't remember what her name is, first name's Laura, but her son actually got drugs through Snapchat. They were laced with fentanyl or something to that effect and it actually killed him, but it was through Snapchat that he was able to get the drugs. Speaker 1 (15:41): So Snapchat is another one that's like a black hole and very, very important that you turn off the location services and be very much open with your kiddo and communication and all of that. Okay? They do also have something in Snapchat called the Snap Map and that's where you can share your location with others and that can be set to ghost mode. So I recommend that you make sure your kids is, is set to ghost mode on that so that they cannot be located anywhere. Okay, I was just gonna say something and now I forgot what it was. Okay, I don't remember what it was, but my biggest takeaway for all of these is private account versus public account, their location settings and then monitoring. Oh and now I remember what it was. Okay, so a lot of times what happens with parents, and I think I've mentioned this in a recent episode, but a lot of times what happens with parents when the kids are younger and you give them the phone is there, it becomes, there becomes this tug of war between you and it creates this feeling of distrust and kind of like, you know, you're snooping and trying to figure out what the kid's doing cuz they're not telling you the truth. Speaker 1 (16:49): And there's a period of time in there in those years, I mean I, I can talk about this to some degree now because my kids have gone, all three have gone through that and I can remember how you're like, ooh, I don't know if it's puberty in hormones that is causing this change in their demeanor or if something else is going on. But just wanna say number one, keep the lines of communication open. Number two, if you have given them some type of digital thing and suddenly their behavior changes, follow your gut instinct on that, pull that thing away and see if you can try to figure out what it is. When I look back and I see some of the most dramatic changes that happened with my kids, it almost always coincides with something digital that I gave them and that maybe I needed to pull that away or provide more boundaries around its use. Speaker 1 (17:40): So looking back, I realize that now, but back then in the thick of it, I didn't realize that. So that's just a tidbit that you might, a gut instinct that you might follow is if you've noticed a change in their behavior, pull away from the digital things, yes, you'll get pushed back. You'll probably be, you know, really made out to be the bad guy and you know you're mean or whatever, but just trust beyond this and follow your gut instinct. And then if you set up some type of monitoring like bark, I know there's other things out there. Bark is the one that I know of that is so passionate about helping parents and is so proactive, but also is a place where you can put their system in place and it helps you monitor without always being in their business. So it gives you a place where you don't have to be snooping and wondering what's going on and creating this push pull, you know what I mean? Speaker 1 (18:37): So it doesn't create this kind of like animosity between the parent and the child because what I have done with mine when we were really in the thick of things, I just pulled, like we tried to do the thing where you know, okay, well we're only gonna do this, this, and this. And things didn't get better, they just kept getting worse. So they'd get better for a little bit and then they'd get worse again. So when we were really in the thick of it, I just pulled the phone in digital access and social media accounts and everything, I pulled it away completely and we kept it away for like months. I'm serious, like six months or longer before I gave the phone back. Like it literally was at a point to where I was like, okay, I don't know what else to do, but we are pulling this away until we regroup and figure out what's going on. Speaker 1 (19:25): So when I did that and then really put my foot down on all that stuff, it took that draw that addiction away and then he had to kind of find his own interest and it was kind of like we like cleared this fog and all of a sudden the, the kid that we knew before was back again. It was like, oh my god, he's back. Like he had gone away and he was lost in this fog and he didn't know how to handle it. And so what we were seeing with behavior and decisions and all of that was him not knowing how to handle the digital influence and stimulation and addiction that was happening. And we didn't know that that's what's happening because we as parents didn't grow up with those digital things at that age. So while , I certainly didn't, wouldn't want to choose the hard road for us, I'm so very thankful that we could get through that and that we have a medium like this, like this podcast that I can bring this out to people in the world. Speaker 1 (20:23): So I hope, hope, hope that this is helpful for you today to just kind of hear this and hear this from my heart. I always have to put a kind of a shade of, you know, not telling all the things for privacy of my children, but they know I do this podcast and they are very happy about the information that I share and they're all healthy and thriving and it's just amazing. But for whatever reason, the hard parts were a part of our story, but thankfully nothing tragic happened in our life. We were close, we were super really close. We were at a crossroads of, of a point where we might not have come back from it in certain aspects. So I know some people out there like that, Dr. Laura, that I mentioned, that her son got drugs on Snapchat and took them, they were laced with fentanyl and he died. Speaker 1 (21:17): Some are not as fortunate as we were to, you know, I followed my gut even when my husband was like, No, I don't think that's what's going on. I'm like, Oh no, something's going on. Like something is going on and I have to listen to this right now. And I was right. So thank goodness I followed my gut and for whatever reason this was our path and I absolutely love bringing this information to you. So I hope it's helpful. Now the last thing that I wanna mention is what I mentioned earlier about the hidden threat regarding all of these apps that I mentioned. And that is the popup targeted ads. I don't know how many parents I've talked to that have brought this up. And regardless of your settings, regardless of putting like their age and you know that you want this supervised option and this and that, the popup ads pop up on all the devices and they're often, or you know, a lot of times inappropriate showing pornography, showing words you may not want them to know, showing different things that they click on and it sends them down rabbit holes. Speaker 1 (22:27): TikTok, I for sure know, does it Snapchat? I for sure know, does it? I don't think Instagram's is bad, but I do think that they do have things that they target for kids. So like I said at the beginning, this is a way for you to do a privacy checkup if you do have kids on these apps. But do not let your guard down. Make sure that you have some type of layered approach in place. Get my Be That Mom Movement Method course as soon as it launches to give you some more tools and tips, more in depth guidance on these things. But just be aware that there's often those popup targeted ads and things that are inappropriate and that will often be the catalyst for clicking on things and going down and getting, you know, getting curious as kids do and going down rabbit holes that ends up exposing them to things that you may not have wanted them exposed to. Speaker 1 (23:21): So definitely be aware of that. Okay, so I hope you found this episode super, super helpful. I was gonna split it up into a couple of episodes, but decided to just give all the information now. So I hope you found it helpful. I hope that you have been using Bark. You can use my code, Be that mom for a discount. If you do not wanna go the social media and smartphone route, which I highly recommend being the way that you go until they're older, I would start with a pinwheel phone, Tru Me Phone, Gab, phone. They're younger. Use a gab, watch, you know, use a Tick Talk watch. One of those things. There's options out there. I wish I would've had them. So I think they are a gift to parents today as we're raising our kids in the digital world and trying to stay in touch. Speaker 1 (24:09): Okay, so thanks so much for tuning in and I hope you have a great day and a great week. Thank you. If you are needing a way to stay in touch with your kiddo, but don't quite want to give them a phone yet, check out the Tick Talk Watch. It is the best way to stay connected with your kid while keeping them safe and knowing exactly where they are. It includes streaming music, has an activity tracker has parental controls. You can text, you can call between each other and you can set up a place where you know if they go outside of a certain perimeter such as their school or your neighborhood. Check them out today and use code. Be that mom for a discount. Speaker 2 (24:52): Thanks for tuning in. Being that mom isn't easy, but together we can be that mom strong. Don't forget to leave a review, connect on social and join Dolly's free community. Till next time. Speaker 1 (25:06): Hey there, before you go, I want to just give you a heads up on something. When things have been hardest in my role as a mom, the thing that was so very helpful for me was having a routine to take care of myself each day. I know that this whole thing around raising kids in a digital world is so very overwhelming, but if you have a place where you are taking care of yourself every single day with a simple routine that works despite where you are or what your schedule is, you will be able to be more present for your family and handle all of the ups and downs of this most amazing role that we could ever play in this world. So connect with me and let's get you connected to fitness and nutrition tools made by experts that will help you simplify this and then connect you with my Fit Club community that will support you, guide you, and give you momentum and motivation to show up every day. Take care of yourself first so that you could be better present for our digital native kids.

First of all, I think your superpower is just making things really easy. You already know the blueprint, the strategy, you've got everything there and you just fed that to me in a way that I was easily able to make my book a success.Doone Roisin is the creator and host of Female Startup Club, a Top Ten Entrepreneurship Podcast and the bestselling author of Your Hype Girl: 51 Female Founders Share Their Most Impactful Learnings, Tactics & Strategies In Business.I advised Doone in the lead-up to her book launch in March of this year and she has since connected me with several clients. As a result of these experiences I have started a book consulting business: Ben Guest Book Consulting. On my website are the services I offer, my rates, and testimonials, including this from Doone:I worked with Ben ahead of self-publishing my debut book. He helped me with publishing, marketing and promotion. My book, Your Hype Girl, hit #1 in multiple categories on Amazon including "Women & Business", "Ecommerce and Small Business", as well as hitting the top 100 of all paperback books in my home country of Australia (#55). I did everything Ben taught me and the results were so much more than I had anticipated. We smashed every goal that was set and more. I can't recommend Ben enough!Everyone has a story to tell. When you're ready to tell your story please reach out.In 2022, Doone was named Australian Young Achiever of the Year in the UK and, as a result, met Prince Charles at Buckingham Palace. In this conversation, Doone and I talk:The ancillary benefits of publishing a bookHolding a physical copy of your book for the first timeTrends Group on FacebookUsing TikTok to promote your bookThe power of organic word-of-mouthWhy having a checklist is keyIdentifying your “comparable” author and bookBen Guest Book Consultant. Rates here.Meeting Prince CharlesVIDEOTRANSCRIPTBen Guest (00:02):Hi, everyone. This is Ben Guest, and today's conversation is with Doone Roisin. Doone is the creator and host of the podcast Female Startup Club, which is a top 10 podcast in the entrepreneurship category. And I helped Doone with the final stages of publishing and then marketing and promoting her book, Your Hype Girl, which she released in March, and hit number one in a bunch of categories, was the number 55 overall bestselling paperback book in Australia. Doone is Australian, but currently lives in England, and ended up with her being invited to Buckingham Palace to meet Prince Charles.Ben Guest (00:46):So in this interview, we talk about all the steps we took to promote her book and the actionable items to make it a number one best seller in multiple categories. And also, kind of as an outgrowth of that project, a few other people have contacted me about helping them with their book launch or even other aspects of writing and editing their book. And so, I'm now launching a book consulting business, and you can find that at benguest.net, where I have all the services I offer, testimonials, my rates, et cetera. And essentially, Doone was my first client. So enjoy our conversation.Ben Guest (01:29):Doone, great to see you.Doone Roisin (01:31):It's good to see you too, Ben.Ben Guest (01:33):So, Your Hype Girl has been out in the world. How successful was your launch?Doone Roisin (01:39):Oh my gosh. It has been out in the world since, when did we launch it? March? It's been a while. March, April, May, June, July, August, five months. Wow, that's crazy. So how did it go? I would say it was pretty damn successful. For me personally, I wanted that offline experience to give to my audience, give to my community, and have that kind of thing that's out there physical that I could ship to people and hold. And so, for me success was literally just number one, getting that out in the world and having that there, so obviously, tick.Doone Roisin (02:15):I also was thinking about what success was to me, in terms of I wanted to hit the best seller list on Amazon for the categories that I really cared about. And the categories that I really cared about were women in business, eCommerce, maybe small business or something like that. They were the ones that I cared about, but I was also like, "We'll see," because I obviously had no benchmark against what I had done before because it was totally new to me.Doone Roisin (02:48):Yeah. It went better than expected. I hit all the bestseller categories that I wanted to and so many others. I hit them, I think, day of for some of them. I hit women in business day of, and I had estimated based on our talking, that could take three months maybe, chipping away, so I was really stoked with that.Doone Roisin (03:08):And I think the things that I didn't expect to come from it were the success in terms of speaking opportunities and the opportunities that came out of having the book out in the world. So last week I spoke to the women at JP Morgan about my journey and the book and entrepreneurship in general. I landed a gig sitting on an investment committee to be part of this new fund that's launching in Australia, which is going to be funding women-founded tech companies that are in impact and purpose-driven sectors. And so, that has just been so wild.Doone Roisin (03:47):It also led to, I won Young Australian Achiever of the Year from the High Commissioner of Australia, which led to me going to Buckingham Palace and meeting the future king of England. All these things rattled off the back end of the book which I hadn't put in my goals to begin with, but it really was like, "Whoa." When I take a step back now and I look at that, I'm like, "Damn that's cool."Ben Guest (04:13):It's amazing.Doone Roisin (04:14):Yeah. Yeah. It's been really cool. And I think the other thing that I probably expected to happen but didn't realize how amazing it is, which I should know because I already get a thrill from getting DMs from my community in general, but still seeing the power of the book out in the world. So people sending me a message of how it's impacted them, why they're loving it, sharing about it on social media, that feeling is just priceless. It's so cool. So yeah, those are the kind of goals that I had. I wasn't looking at it as a revenue driver for me, which I think is a really hard goal to have if you are going to be an author, especially first time. But yeah, that wasn't a goal for me.Ben Guest (04:59):So much of what we do is in the digital world, podcasts and Zoom meetings and social media and so forth. But one of the first things you mentioned was having the physical book in your hand. Can you talk about the first time you held it, leafing through it, what the difference between something you're working on digitally and having a physical copy in your hands?Doone Roisin (05:20):Oh my gosh. I recorded the moment that I opened the final copy. And I have my dog on my lap, and it's this video where I'm just so happy and bubbling over with emotion because I was like, "Wow, I actually did this. I made this book. And this book is now out in the world, impacting thousands of other women, thousands of other business owners, future business owners. How cool is that?"Ben Guest (05:46):So we connected through the Trends group on Facebook. And I think you had pretty much had the manuscript finished. I had just published my book, and I had written up sort of a list of, "Okay, here's what worked well for me in terms of publishing and marketing." And then we connected, and so I helped guide you through that, the marketing and promotion phase, publishing, marketing, promotion. And then, of course, that led to a whole bunch of more opportunities. And now I'm launching my book consulting business, but it all started from you and I connecting on Trends group. And you mentioned-Doone Roisin (06:24):Shout out to Trends.Ben Guest (06:25):Shout out the Trends.Doone Roisin (06:25):I love Trends.Ben Guest (06:27):So many great opportunities and people on that group. And you mentioned that your book hit multiple best seller categories on Amazon, but let's not undersell it. You hit number one. And the number one category that we talked about, I think the first time we talked, was women in business. That was the category. That was the goal. Okay, this is a big category. It's tied directly to what your book is about and what your life is about. And not only did you hit the bestseller list, you hit number one.Doone Roisin (06:57):Yeah, it was pretty cool. We also hit, maybe a week later or maybe a few days later, we hit top 55 of all paperback books in Australia. And I was like, "What? This is wild." But yeah, it's crazy. And I think for me, we started the marketing plan two months out or maybe three months out, and would say that was a fine amount of time. Maybe three months is the optimal and two months is the absolute minimum. Somewhere in there is the sweet spot in terms of putting a lot of your energy and effort into drumming up the interest, drumming up Your Hype Girls who are going to support you and cheerlead and shout for you. Yeah. Amazing. I can't believe that I hit number one in all those categories, so wild.Ben Guest (07:49):So let's break it down. In terms of marketing, what were the best strategies that you implemented?Doone Roisin (07:55):I would say there's three things that I did really well. One is harder for the everyday person to achieve, and that's obviously because I have an inbuilt community, so I have a podcast, I have social channels, things like that. And I was pumping that message there. My audience was aware of the book coming out for so long. And then, in the lead up, it was every single episode, dropping it in wherever I could. And so, I already knew that people were really excited from my audience.Doone Roisin (08:25):But besides that kind of piece of the puzzle, the two other main things that really made a difference and shifted the needle was TikTok and hand-to-hand combat, and I'll break down both of those. When it came to TikTok, my approach was for the three months leading up, I doubled down on content creation organically. So I was posting three times a day. I was talking about the book. I was talking about Female Startup Club. I was just pushing out that content. And it's a lot, even three videos is a lot per day, and we grew a lot in that time as well. So when the book came out, there was again, more of an audience who were ready to buy and ready to be excited and ready to get involved.Doone Roisin (09:13):And again, it's one of those things. I think people often lean straight towards paid marketing or kind of this magic pill that actually, it's not the money you need to invest, it's the time you need to invest to create valuable content that's exciting and gets people excited authentically about what you're doing. And so, TikTok for me on the organic side was really important. I was creating a lot of content and then I also partnered with a lot of TikTok, or not even a lot, I think it was like 10 influencers ranging from micro-influencers, 1,000, 2,000, 3000 followers, then some medium to large size, a few hundred thousand followers, right up to one TikTok person who had about 3 million followers.Doone Roisin (09:58):And so, that all came out on launch day along with everyone that we were rallying on TikTok and all of our content as well. And I think it just created a really happy buzz on TikTok. And looking back, I tried a number of different things. I tried PR that didn't work for me. I wasted a lot of time pedaling. It didn't come to fruition. I got a few good things. I got a feature in Refinery, which was absolutely amazing, but I pedaled a lot to get not a lot of return.Doone Roisin (10:30):And TikTok was one of those things where looking back, it's hard to see, obviously with Amazon, you're not able to own your customer data. You're not able to see the traffic, where it's coming from, all that kind of stuff. But anecdotally, I could see people in the comments on the videos of the influencers that were posting, being like, "Just ordered my copy." So I was able to see that real time feedback from people who were supporters.Doone Roisin (10:56):And then the second thing that worked really well for me again, which was a time investment versus a money investment, was just hand-to-hand combat. And so, what I did was I went through absolutely every single thing that I could to make a list. I made this huge spreadsheet of everything. I went through my entire emails, and went through and found every single person I knew that had a newsletter who could be a potential newsletter to spread the word. Any kind of email-focused community, I wrote that on a list.Doone Roisin (11:31):I went through everyone in my Facebook friends. Who do I know and hear that could either shout about it, could introduce me to someone who has a community of their own on Facebook, put that on the list. I also did this for Facebook groups. What Facebook groups am I a part of? Can I reach out to the admin owner? Can I ask them if I can provide some value, give a talk, provide some resources in return for promotion about the book? I went through every single WhatsApp conversation and I listed out all of my friends who were going to be happy to shout about me on social media, all my friends of friends. I asked them if they would tell their friends. I think on the day I had a group of my core best friends in a WhatsApp group, and I asked them to send it to five people that they thought would love the book. And so, everyone was becoming my hype girl.Doone Roisin (12:18):I also made lists of podcasters that I knew. I tried to think about, "Who do I know, even if it's really far disconnected and not my direct community, who has a community that I could call in that favor?" And this is why networking and relationship building is so important, because the day that you have something that you need to have people rallying for you, you're able to knock on that door and be like, "Hey, today's the day. I need some help. Can you help me?" And yeah, I just went through everything, LinkedIn, Instagram. I just made tons of lists, and then I just had a column where it was their name, how I'm going to reach out to them and on what channel, and have I reached out to them, and then the follow up.Doone Roisin (13:01):And I just started sending messages, obviously super personalized, literally one-to-one, "Here's what I'm doing. Here's how I'd love to see if you could help me." Whether it was through a paid shout out or whether it was through just organic, whatever it might be, but figuring out, depending on the relationship, what made sense. And that seriously was what I attribute a lot of the success to, because I just did one by one. I was not going for a mass approach with things like paid ads where you're just spraying money at a wall and seeing what sticks and trying to find that audience. I was going to directly audiences that I already knew and just telling them what I was up to and seeing if there was something that we could do together.Ben Guest (13:48):One of the things that both you and I didn't do was paid advertising on Amazon ads, Facebook ads, et cetera. You and I, we focused on organic, authentic word of mouth. That's the best kind of marketing promotion you can have. And it's so fun talking to you now. So obviously, I know us working together from my side, and I remember sending you after I think our first conversation, I put together a checklist, a spreadsheet checklist that I shared with you on Google Docs.Ben Guest (14:20):And then, just for the listeners, every couple of weeks, I'd check in and see where Doone was on the checklist and what she checked off. And the tabs kept growing, and everything that you're just describing, you had it all laid out on that checklist and you kept adding more tabs. "Okay. These groups I'm going to reach out to. This community, I'm going to reach out to. These people, I'm going to reach out to, these podcasts." And you just had it all laid out on the checklist.Doone Roisin (14:46):When you sent me the checklist, I was like, "Great. This is the beginning of the master checklist and the master kind of plan," because you house everything in one document, and it just becomes your, "Here is what you need to do every single day, chipping away." And I had all of your things to do on that first tab that I was just able to go through and follow and slowly chip away at over the three months or two months or whatever.Doone Roisin (15:11):And then, I had all of the launch party plans, communities, pricing, what I'd spent, everything else, just everything related to the book lived in that one document. And I even did my recap in there as well, where I afterwards went through and put in all the press that we'd received, not that it was a lot, but we received the Refinery article, a few smaller pieces of press and all the TikTok videos and things like that recapped. So I'm always able to just go back and immediately be like, "Oh yeah, that's right. That's exactly what happened."Doone Roisin (15:44):And it's also good for when you are doing your wrap up, not that I did a report for myself, because I absolutely didn't. But when you look back at all the different initiatives you did, unless you have everything clearly mapped out and in one place, it's pretty easy to forget what you did. And even before this call, I just opened up the document to be like, "Yeah, what did I do? That was five months ago. I forget." So yeah, that checklist was... I love the checklist. It makes life very easy when you have a great checklist that's created from an expert.Ben Guest (16:12):And the cool thing about it is, now that you have that checklist, now you have a plan for the next book.Doone Roisin (16:17):Oh, a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And exactly, you're right. I added notes to it. I would know next time things that I added in along the way. Yeah, it's mandatory, I would say.Ben Guest (16:29):TikTok is the new thing for selling books, so let's dive into that a little bit.Doone Roisin (16:34):The reality of TikTok is the more time you put into it, the more you get out of it, a hundred percent. So when I was posting three times a day, I was growing really quickly because, of course, I'm on there three times a day, pushing new styles of content, trying new different things, really being there when people open their app all the time, basically, whereas now I only post once a day and I can see that's slowed my growth down.Doone Roisin (16:57):But TikTok has been really instrumental actually, in being a discovery channel for my podcast. So I always ask, if someone leaves a kind message in my Instagram DMs or on email or LinkedIn or in TikTok and says, "Oh my God, I love your show" or "I love your podcast," I always reply, and somewhere in that reply, "How did you find the show?" And actually, a lot of the time it's through organic SEO or podcast recommendations in the apps, but the other way that people often say is TikTok.Ben Guest (17:33):What are your tips for authors using TikTok to raise awareness for their books?Doone Roisin (17:40):What are my tips? So if you're new to TikTok and you haven't got any experience on the platform, and you might be someone who is a little insecure about putting your face on the camera and this new style of creating content and things like that, I totally get it. I definitely felt like that in the beginning. It took me a while to get used to it. So first of all, my tip would be just to consume a lot of content that is around your niche.Doone Roisin (18:07):So if you are writing chick lit, and you have a lot of authors that you look up to, go and see if those authors are on TikTok. Or even if it's not linked to your niche, but go and find people who are authors just in general and look up what they're doing. And you can do that by searching the hashtags. There's lots of book talk, book recs, book recommendation. Often there are lots of trends around different books that are going around at the moment or the way that people display their books on TikTok. So I would do a lot of research.Doone Roisin (18:43):I would then spend some time just creating 30 to 50 drafts and not even putting pressure on yourself to post them, but just to get comfortable, get familiar, and get into the groove of how you feel and look and sound on video. And then, there are so many small little tips that you can do with TikTok. For example, one that I heard recently, and I'm sure this stuff changes all the time, but one that I heard recently is if you're going to start a TikTok account, you should immediately start posting explosively the day that you start your account, not tomorrow, not 10 weeks from now.Doone Roisin (19:27):So for example, when I tell you to do 50 drafts, do that on the dummy account, don't use that as your main account. And then, the day that you're ready to start your account, that's the day that you start posting minimum three times a day and you give yourself a 30-day challenge, and you just go all out. And you've already got your list of content that you have found online.Doone Roisin (19:47):What you can also do is look for viral videos that have already got a proven kind of method to how they look, and try and recreate that video. Take inspiration from it, make it your own, but you can see why things have gone viral and take those kind of learnings from that video when you are consuming and researching.Doone Roisin (20:06):And then I would also say, what you can do on TikTok is you go to the search bar, and if you were to search something really specific, not even something specific, let's say book talk, all the top performing videos will come up at the top. And you can even filter it so that you filter it by most liked in the last three months, and then you'll get the most viral videos related to that.Doone Roisin (20:34):And then you can build a bit of an idea around, "Oh, yeah. I can actually create that kind of content. That would work for me and my style and what I like." Or, "Oh, I can see why that worked. I could take elements of that." And build a bit of a content strategy so that when you are gearing up to launch and you're like, "Yep, I have got the time carved out every single day," or "I'm going to batch record every weekend so that I have my 15 videos or however many it is for the week." And then, just the day that you're ready to start that day, get it all out for 30 days or three months.Ben Guest (21:08):And you mentioned something there that it's so key, not for TikTok, but for any type of marketing and promotion you're doing for a book. And this is something that we talked about the very first time that we had a conversation, which is finding your pilot author, finding your comparable author and your comparable book, and seeing what they're doing, what podcasts they're doing interviews on, what they're doing on their social media, what their cover of their book looks like, so on and so forth.Ben Guest (21:39):And the first time that we talked and I said, "Okay, what is a comparable book? Who is a comparable author to your book, which is Your Hype Girl?" And you referenced the book, How to Build a Goddamn Empire by Ali Kriegsman. And just getting ready for the podcast this morning, I clicked over to Amazon and checked out Your Hype Girl on Amazon. And sure enough, it says "frequently bought together," Your Hype Girl.Doone Roisin (22:06):No way.Ben Guest (22:07):And How to Build a Goddamn Empire by Ali Kriegsman. So you nailed the pilot author comparable of, "I want the same audience as this book and this author." And now Amazon has picked that up, and the algorithm has picked that up, and they're matching the two of your books together.Doone Roisin (22:24):Oh, my God, that's so cool. And why that's cool is I really loved watching Ali bring out her book. And we had her on the show when she launched the book. And so, it's so funny that you say that now, knowing those books have still been managed to be linked somehow. I love that for me. It's cool.Ben Guest (22:44):And it's totally organic.Doone Roisin (22:45):Yep. That's so great.Ben Guest (22:46):That's the thing that we're talking about. And for people listening to this podcast who are in whatever phase of writing, editing, publishing their book, the number one takeaway that I want or we want you to have is, you do not have to do this alone. You're not on your own. People have gone before you and done this, so all you have to do... The number one takeaway is find that comparable author and that comparable book, see what they've done, and you just fit in behind what they're doing. Now, I want to be clear-Doone Roisin (23:20):Yes. Reverse engineer it.Ben Guest (23:21):Yes, exactly.Doone Roisin (23:21):Reverse engineer what are the levers that they have pulled that get them in front of audiences that are relevant to that book and how can you repeat it.Ben Guest (23:33):Exactly. And so, I want to be clear, let's say you're writing a book in the horror genre. You don't say, "Okay, my comparable author is Steven King." Right? You don't pick the number one best selling author in your genre. You pick someone that's more closely comparable.Ben Guest (23:46):So the example I always use is right now, I'm finishing up a book project with a retired NBA player, Scott Williams. He played on the Chicago Bulls of the nineties, won three championships, so on and so forth. And he played the position of power forward. So when we're looking at comparable authors, there's another power forward from the nineties, a guy named Charles Oakley, who just published a book last year. So now it's just tracking, "Okay, what are the interviews? What are the media hits? What are the tactics that Charles Oakley used in publishing his book?" We don't go and look at, "Okay. When Michael Jordan published his book or Kobe Bryant published his book." You look at someone that's a very nice comparable in terms of who the person is, in terms of what the book is.Doone Roisin (24:33):Absolutely.Ben Guest (24:34):Speaking of not having to do this on your own, so when this podcast interview drops, I'm also officially putting my shingle out there, Ben Guest Book Consulting.Doone Roisin (24:49):Ready for hire.Ben Guest (24:51):Ready for hire. And Doone has been great. You've already connected me with several people. And again, it's just all organic, it's all just word of mouth, and that's led to a couple of great projects that I'm currently working on. I hate doing this, but if we could do a little bit of promotion, what was it like working with me?Doone Roisin (25:06):Oh, my gosh. First of all, I think your superpower is just making things really easy. You already know the blueprint, the strategy. You've got everything there. And you just fed that to me in a way that I was easily able to be, "Great. I'm busy. I don't have time for lots of different things." You just gave me the list and I was able to work my way through it.Doone Roisin (25:33):And I would say the number one thing was, it was just so easy working with you, which was such joy, such joy in my life. And then I would also say you are a great accountability buddy. You were a cheerleader for me the whole way through. You made me feel really supported. You made me feel really good about myself, and made me feel like I could totally achieve the things that I wanted to achieve, so accountability was second.Doone Roisin (25:58):And then I think also, what was really important was if I just had a quick question, I would just come to you and you would have the answer. It was just so easy having that person that you can... Instead of having to spend time researching and then you don't know if that's really the answer and then you'd ask five people their opinions, I could just be like, "Ben, hey, what do I need to do here?" Yeah. I think working with you was just absolutely amazing and I can't recommend you highly enough. I really loved the process and you made my life easy. You were my accountability buddy, and you were just there when I needed support. You were my support line. But yeah, I had the best time working with you. It was super fun.Ben Guest (26:41):Thank you so much. And it was the same. It was just a joy working with you. And I can't tell people how enjoyable it is to work with someone, and you have your plan and you follow your plan, you execute your plan, and then it succeeds, and it's more successful than you even hoped and envisioned for. But it's all about just going back to those actionable items. I really think that's the key. It's not, "Okay. Here's the plan, and it's just reach out to some podcasts." Right? It's, "Okay. Have your comparable author. Find five podcast interviews they did. What were the podcasts? What's the contact information? Contact these five people." Actionable item that takes all the mystery out of it. You know exactly what you need to do.Doone Roisin (27:31):A hundred percent. Absolutely. And I think the other thing is that you can often feel like, "Oh my God. How am I going to get up to the top of that mountain? That mountain is so high." That just feels not attainable. But then when you've broken it down into all those tiny little steps, it's just the 1% every day that you need to aim for. You just need to tick off one tiny thing or two tiny things, or if you're in a power mode, tick off 10 things. Great, amazing. But that's why you give yourself that three month window where you're just going to chip away every single day. And then when you look back in hindsight, you're going to be like, "Wow. That really compounded because I did all the steps from three months out, and then I'm at the top of the mountain and I don't even know how I got here." It's really that 1%, 1% every day.Ben Guest (28:20):You mentioned being invited to Buckingham Palace and meeting the future king of England. And it was so cool seeing that on your social media. Do you tie that directly to the success of your book?Doone Roisin (28:34):Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. It's just such a wild story.Ben Guest (28:39):Because that was not on our list.Doone Roisin (28:41):Definitely not on the list of goals, going to Buckingham Palace. Yeah, that was so wild. Basically, the book came out, I had a feature go up on Sohohouse.com, which was talking about the book, talking about entrepreneurship. And someone saw that and nominated me for the Young Australian Achiever of the Year Award in the UK. And when I received the email, I didn't know I was nominated or anything like that. But I received an email to say, I'd won this thing. And I was like, "Oh, that's not true. This is a lie. This is spam or whatever." And then I LinkedIn stalked a few people and I was like, "Oh, maybe this is legit." And my family was out here being like, "I don't think this is legit. You need to be careful. If it's Australia House, they'll be contacting you by mail." And I was like, "I don't know." Anyway, it was all a bit weird.Doone Roisin (29:36):And even when we were going, they hosted this huge gala event and I had to get up and give a speech. And there was hundreds of people there. And the person who won Australian of the Year was this amazing woman who was the Lead Statistician who worked on Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine. And even on our way there, I was like, "Maybe this is part of some big scam" or "Oy, is this really real?" And then when we got there, I was like, "Oh, it actually is really real."Doone Roisin (30:06):And then the next thing that happened was after that, not too long after that, I got another email from the Embassy, because Australia House is the Embassy of Australia in London. I got another email from the assistant to the High Commissioner asking if I would be happy for my name to be put forward. But they were very vague and it was something to do with the royals. And I was, again, just shrugged it off, was like, "Oh, whatever."Doone Roisin (30:35):And then, it was so weird. It was such a weird coincidence, because on the Saturday morning at 6:00 AM, my husband and I were going to fly to New York for some work stuff. And on the Friday afternoon, when we walked back into the apartment, we never check our mail, because we have concierge where we receive packages and stuff. We never check our actual letter box. And I was like, "Oh, we haven't checked the letter box in a while. We should just check it." When I opened it up and it's packed to the brim, and on the very top sitting there is a letter from Buckingham Palace. And I was like, "Oh, s**t," because it had been Jubilee Weekend. And I was like, "Oh I bet I've missed the event. I reckon I was invited to just party at the palace or something and it's already gone."Doone Roisin (31:22):And then I opened it, and it was an invitation basically around celebrating people who have contributed to culture and community within the UK and as a result of what I've been building with Female Startup Club and being recognized as the Australian Young Achiever of the Year. And I was like, "Whoa, this is crazy." And it was for that week. And so, I was about to fly the next morning. I would have missed it if I didn't check the letter box, because the event was then on Thursday. So I had to change my flight, went to Buckingham Palace, and I went with Merryn, who is the Lead Statistician who won Australian of the Year.Doone Roisin (31:59):And we just had the best time. It was so cool. I had a few moments with Prince Charles and we were talking about what I was doing with Female Startup Club. And he was making some jokes about the Prince's Trust, because he supports young entrepreneurs and ambitious young people through his organization. And it was just one of those moments that was so weird and so bizarre, so amazing. It was just such a thrill, and yeah, had the best day and then flew to New York and we got to celebrate on a high in New York as well.Ben Guest (32:36):What's Prince Charles like? What's one of the jokes he made?Doone Roisin (32:39):Oh, my God. I can't even remember because I froze. I can't remember the specific things that he said, but he was so charming. Of course, royals, you expect them to be charming and you expect them to be lovely. But when I met him, I was like, "Wow." He deeply looks into your eyes and really gives you the moment to have a little chat and have a little joke. He's so charming and so warm and absolutely lovely. And Camilla was also just wonderful. She was so lovely and kind and very gracious. So yeah, it was really special. I couldn't have ever imagined that Female Startup Club would lead me to Buckingham Palace.Ben Guest (33:24):That's so cool. We started at the top of the interview talking about the ancillary benefits of publishing a book, and it leads to things like speaking gigs and it's really an accelerator, an accelerant for everything else that you're doing. And in this case, it led to being invited to Buckingham Palace. Now I can't promise you if you engage me, if you engage Ben Guest Book Consulting, that you're going to get invited to Buckingham Palace, but I can promise you that you will have a successful book launch.Doone Roisin (33:55):Yes. Everyone should hit you up immediately so they can get their own version of Buckingham Palace on the way.Ben Guest (34:02):I love it. So you can find me at, again, the day this interview drops, my website goes live. It's benguest.net. That has all the services I offer, my rates, testimonials, including a wonderful testimonial from you, Doone. Doone, it's been absolutely a pleasure becoming friends over this past year, getting to know you and working with you on this project. And as I said, it's the reward that I get from seeing how successful this was. It can't be put into words, but it's just been an absolute pleasure working with you.Doone Roisin (34:35):Aww, thanks Ben. You are just absolute joy. It's been such a pleasure working with you, too. And I'm so stoked for this new phase for you and all that you're doing as well. It's so exciting. I'm going to be cheering for you. I'll be your hype girl.Ben Guest (34:52):Love it. Love it. Love it. Please tell everybody the name of the book and where they can find you.Doone Roisin (34:58):Yes. The book is called Your Hype Girl. You can find it on Amazon or buy at my website, femalestartupclub.com. And you can find me at Doone Roisin, which is D-O-O-N-E, R-O-I-S-I-N in all the places. I'm on TikTok. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Instagram. I'm all over the shop, so check in with me wherever you want. Always happy to give advice, always happy to answer any follow-up questions, always happy to just chat about what you're up to, would love to.Ben Guest (35:32):Fantastic. Doone, much continued success, and thank you so much.Doone Roisin (35:38):Thanks, Ben.Ben Guest (35:39):So that was my conversation with Doone Roisin. I'm Ben Guest. You can find all of my work at benbo.substack.com. That's benbo.substackcom. Benbo is a family nickname, B-E-N-B-O. And as I mentioned in this interview, I've started a book consulting business. You can find my services and rates at benguest.net. That's benguest.net. I also have some of the books I'm currently working on, testimonials, et cetera. So I think everybody has a book in them, a story to tell, and if you're interested in telling yours, please reach out. You can find me a benguest.net. Have a great day. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit benbo.substack.com

It might seem like a mystery to Gen X and elder millennials that younger social media users have fallen for TikTok, a platform that seems to be more about dance moves and viral challenges than anything else. But TikTok celebrity Josh Richards explains that Gen Z prizes TikTok for its focus on authenticity in a world where influencers Facetune, Photoshop and filter their lives for followers.Josh talks about his journey to success – all the way from filming duds in his mom's basement to the moment when he went viral on TikTok – and discusses what his next ventures will be.CrossCheck Studios founder and CEO Josh Richards was in conversation with Style Canada editor-in-chief Elise Gasbarrino on Centre Stage at Collision 2022.Use promo code 'TNS10' for 10% off your #CollisionConf ticket now.

Who doesn't love TV? In this golden era of the small screen, there's heaps of choice too - Bridgerton, Anatomy of a Scandal, Drive to Survive, Love is Blind, Bodyguard, Tiger King, Queen's Gambit, Game of Thrones... How do you ever run out of things to watch? While Netflix used to think its only competition for her attention was when she went to sleep, all that has changed. As a company they've finally acknowledged the huge rise in competition. Because when we wake up, and look to our screens - there's endless options available.The total time we spend on social media and streaming platforms is mind-boggling. Every minute, there are 44 million views on Facebook live. But TikTok smash those numbers with three times that engagement - there's 167 million views every minute. So recently, when Netflix, the previously unrivalled king of content, announced its first drop in subscribers in a decade recently… Darcy and Sascha sat down to discuss: Who's winning in the war for our attention?Tell us what you think of The Dive - email us at thedive@equitymates.comIn the spirit of reconciliation, Equity Mates Media and the hosts of The Dive acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people today. *****All information in this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. Equity Mates gives listeners access to information and educational content provided by a range of financial services professionals. It is not intended as a substitute for professional finance, legal or tax advice. The hosts of The Dive are not financial professionals and are not aware of your personal financial circumstances. Equity Mates Media does not operate under an Australian financial services licence and relies on the exemption available under the Corporations Act 2001 (Cth) in respect of any information or advice given.Before making any financial decisions you should read the Product Disclosure Statement and, if necessary, consult a licensed financial professional. Do not take financial advice from a podcast. For more information head to the disclaimer page on the Equity Mates website where you can find ASIC resources and find a registered financial professional near you. The Dive is part of the Acast Creator Network. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Facebook is losing users for the first time ever and shares in Meta have fallen off a cliff.Facebook reported that its streak of user growth had come to an end, its parent company's stock plunged more than 26% in a staggering loss that obliterated more than $230 billion in market value and triggered Wall Street's worst drop in close to a year.CEO Mark Zuckerberg said Facebook was struggling to compete with short-video app TikTok. But perhaps most unsettling to some was the revelation that Facebook, for years a hot-rod gstock, had experienced its first-ever decline in daily active users.For the fourth quarter, Facebook had 1.929 billion daily active users compared to 1.93 billion in the previous quarter, suggesting that the company whose user growth has stalled in North America and Europe for some time has run out of users to add in the rest of the world. Not all the news was negative. Other user metrics showed modest growth. The company's apps, Instagram, WhatsApp and Messenger, continued to add users, albeit modestly. And the number of users logging in each month to Facebook continued to grow. Meta is investing more into short-form videos to better compete with TikTok, including Reels, which the company launched on Instagram in 2020.According to a story by The Epoch Times on February 13th, 2022, it talks about if you use TikTok, you may be feeding information to the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) intelligence services. That's a warning from cyber security expert Casey Fleming, CEO of strategic advisory firm BlackOps Partners. In a recent interview, Fleming explained the dangers posed by foreign-controlled cell-phone applications like TikTok, which is owned by Beijing-based internet giant ByteDance.“We must assume,” he said, “that every one of these applications coming from China, Russia, and other declared adversaries of the United States, we have to assume that these applications are weaponised against us.” TikTok, the hugely popular short-format video app that allows users to create, share and view 15-second videos often featuring singing, dancing, or comedy, was launched in China as “Douyin” in September 2016, and within a year it had 100 million Chinese users.The app was relaunched as TikTok internationally in September 2017. Attracting dozens of A-list celebrity users, and partnerships with the NBA, NFL, and Comedy Central, TikTok quickly became one of the most popular apps in the world. By 2020, TikTok reported nearly one billion active users worldwide—less than four years after its launch.But TikTok may have a dark side. TikTok is a Chinese company, and all the private information that the app is collecting may be fed directly to the Chinese regime, experts have warned, citing a range of Chinese laws that compel companies to cooperate with regime authorities when asked. It is true that for a Chinese company to be successful it must allow infiltration of the CCP as a sign of complete loyalty and national security.For business owners, CEOs, and marketing managers this podcast is for those who want to grow their business with social audio. You are going to understand now so that you can reap the benefits later.Mick Smith, Consultant M: (619) 227.3118 E: mick.smith@wsiworld.com Commercials Voice Talent:https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-1-commercials Narratives Voice Talent:https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-2-narrativesDo you want a free competitive analysis? Let me know at:https://marketing.wsiworld.com/free-competitive-analysis?utm_campaign=Mick_Smith_Podcast&utm_source=SpreakerWebsite:https://www.wsiworld.com/mick-smithLinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/company/wsi-smith-consulting/Make an appointment:https://app.hubspot.com/meetings/mick-smithBe sure to subscribe, like, & review The Doctor of Digital™ Podcast:https://www.spreaker.com/show/g-mick-smith-phds-tracksSign up for the Doctor Up A Podcast course:https://doctor-up-a-podcast.thinkific.com/

By Walt HickeyWelcome to the Numlock Sunday edition.This week, I spoke to Sarah Frier, the author of No Filter: The Inside Story of Instagram. The past two weeks has revealed a great deal of information about how Instagram and Facebook operate thanks for the most part to a trove of documents published by The Wall Street Journal. Sarah's covered the inner workings of Instagram and its tenuous relationship with Facebook for a long time, and with her book now coming out in paperback this week I wanted to talk to her about what we've just learned, how Facebook got more powerful in the pandemic, what we've always known about Facebook, and how deep into this company's culture this goes. Sarah can be found at Bloomberg where she runs the big tech team, she's on Twitter and the book No Filter is available wherever books are sold. This interview has been condensed and edited. Sarah you are the author of No Filter: The Inside Story of Instagram, that this week is coming out in paperback. Can you tell us a little bit about the book?No Filter is the first book to give the behind-the-scenes story of how Instagram came to be so powerful, have so much of a hold over our culture, over our economy, over our sense of self. I think that the paperback comes out at a time that the app has just become even more relevant. You would think that an app that was about measuring us socially and sharing our experiences would maybe dwindle during a deadly pandemic that forces us to stay inside, but in fact, when we remained at home, we scrolled more, and we shared more. Some of the in-person stuff we were doing became on Instagram and some of the small businesses that were trying to figure out how to sell stuff with their doors closed shifted to Instagram.It's just become an even more relevant story today. I know I'm biased, but with the book, what I try to do is I didn't want to just tell the corporate story. I wanted to tell the story of how those internal decisions affected us on the outside, changed our culture, changed our world. And hopefully people who read it will feel that way.I really enjoyed the cultural parts. I enjoyed the rise of influencer culture and how kind of cultivated that all was. To your point, that has only gotten more significant in the past year.There's been a couple of recent revelations about Facebook and Instagram in particular that echo some of the stuff that you wrote about. Do you want to talk a little bit about what the past two or three weeks have been for Facebook and Instagram?Oh, my goodness. They've had to reckon with some truths here from the Wall Street Journal. They had an incredible leak of documents. They called them the Facebook Files, and they just were probably very painful if you're a Facebook employee because these are the stories that they've tried to tamp down on. When Congressmen and women have asked Facebook, "Is Instagram harmful for teens?" Their response is always, "Oh, the research is mixed." Well, this shows definitively in their own internal research that, yes, they know that it's harmful for teen body image for girls and boys.The Journal had several parts of the investigation, some of them have to do with Facebook Inc. One really uncovered how the company does not have appropriate staff in countries where it's in languages where it just simply doesn't have people to moderate that content. This is a product used by more than 3 billion people around the world, and when you consider that fact, it's more than half of the world's internet connected population.These products have just enormous impact and they're all controlled by a single person who doesn't want us to think anything badly about them. And so, they consistently obfuscate the truth. They make sure that there's nothing out there that could be negative for Facebook or Instagram. And in doing so, are totally disingenuous because of course there's stuff that is real awful that is happening on their platforms.On that note, one thing I really liked about your book, was that it was kind of very personal, describing the relationship between Kevin Systrom and Mark Zuckerberg. And at the time, it can kind of be like, "Oh, is this just drama between two dudes who are very powerful?" But to your point, it is one person who controls this entire ecosystem. Do you want to get into that?Well, I think it's a huge challenge for Facebook, that they have all the voting power, all of the control, centered in this one person who has not surrounded himself with anyone that will critique him. He just simply isn't trusted anymore. If you're using Facebook, you've been lied to so many times or you've been misled so many times, that it's simply is not a product that you can trust, at least not under Mark Zuckerberg's leadership.I think that this company has only given him more power over time. I think that in the Instagram story, you'll see that he is working to consolidate power at Facebook, taking more control over the future of Instagram, more control over the future of WhatsApp, and Oculus and integrating that into the core product. And Facebook Inc is not as important as Facebook, the Social Network. I mean, that's really the core of it all. That's his brainchild that he wants to survive.It's just incredible how the company is attempting to pretend like it doesn't do anything wrong. I was talking with some colleagues the other day, and we were talking about the fact that Facebook doesn't just come out and say, "Listen, the reason we do it this way is because we're a business and we need to money. And if we did it the way you're saying we should do it, well, that might be better for our users, but we lose a ton of money."Right.That would be honest.The tobacco companies did that for years. And it's a viable, straightforward argument in the United States. There is something said for, "I have a fiduciary responsibility to my shareholders to maximize profit, which is why I'm making the decisions that I'm making."Facebook has never said that, ever.It's always like, "No, it's good."They're saying, "Listen, we have the interests of our users, first and foremost. Privacy is at the foundation of our business. Wellbeing, we are making incredible investments." All of these things, over and over and over become these lines in PR. But ultimately, yeah, Facebook is a business and their main objective is to grow.Can you get into their growth because even in the past year, it's been substantial since we last chatted?With the pandemic, there were fewer things that you could do in person, whether that was shopping or going to a concert or hanging out with your friends. Facebook, and especially Instagram, took advantage of that shift and moved a lot of our offline activity online, especially in the case of small businesses. Now they're leaning hard into content creators. I think that they're trying to make this trend exist beyond the pandemic, whenever that may end. That's the case with all the tech companies. You saw Amazon get more powerful, you saw Google get more powerful, because these companies are now the infrastructure of our society. They're almost as crucial as any of the roads we use. It's just like, this is how we live, is through Facebook, Instagram, Amazon, Google, especially in a mode where we've been forced, virtually.To that end, what you're kind of describing there is getting utility-esque. Right? And we've seen some stuff from the FTC this year. What's kind of been going on, on that end, because it seems like they've been playing a little bit of tennis with the courts?Yes. So, what you're referring to is a monopoly claim from the FTC that Facebook has just way too much power over our social interactions. And so much so, that it is considered a monopoly. And that monopoly has been enriched by the purchases of Instagram and WhatsApp, purchases that the FTC considers to be anti-competitive.Because if you look at what internal documents show, and if you read, No Filter, of course, you will see that the reason that mark Zuckerberg buys Instagram is to quash a competitor.Really? The entire reason?Well, absolutely. I mean, he would rather own it than have someone else own it. He would like for Facebook to be somewhere in mobile. At the time, they didn't have really, a mobile strategy. And one of the things that points to this, there's an anecdote in my book where Instagram comes and joins Facebook HQ. The acquisition was announced for a billion dollars, and was the most anyone ever paid for a mobile app.And in the first weeks that they're there, the growth team at Facebook says, "I'm sorry, but we really can't help you grow until we find out if you are a threat to sharing on Facebook."Huh?So, they ran a study to see if Instagram was threatening Facebook. They were willing to let it wither, this incredible investment, if it was going to be a problem for Facebook down the road. And then you see that later, when Zuckerberg sees Instagram becoming more popular, really on that ramp to a billion users.It coincides with this time that we're all scrutinizing Facebook a lot more, after Donald Trump is elected president, the spread of misinformation on Facebook is scrutinized, violent live video, et cetera, et cetera, privacy scandals come about. And Zuckerberg is thinking, "The reason people may not be using Facebook so much is because they have this alternative, that we've been pumping resources into. So, maybe the problem is that we should be directing more attention from Instagram to Facebook."It's at the root of a lot of personal difficulties between the founders.It was jealousy.Seems like a fascinating way to run a business.Yeah, because he owns Instagram. Right? He owns this product that's incredibly successful and he doesn't want it to cannibalize. That's the word they use internally. He doesn't want it to cannibalize Facebook.Again, that sounds a little like buying rival businesses, in order to guarantee that they don't undermine me. That sounds extremely anticompetitive. Oh, you mean, buying something so that they won't compete with you, is anti-competitive? Yeah.That's the definition. But, the law is a little squishy on this. If you and I look at this and say, "Okay, is Instagram a part of Facebook strategy to quash competitors?" Of course, it is. They have a version of every competing product. They have reels to compete with TikTok, they have IGTV to compete with YouTube. They have highlights to compete with all sorts of stuff. There's this infrastructure of things. If you break down every product in Instagram, it correlates with something else outside. And Instagram's purpose within Facebook is really to be the product that brings in that audience. And compared to other products at Facebook, they're doing a much better job. That's about that longevity, that's about the continued domination of Facebook around the world.If I may. some of my favorite things in your book were just how initially Facebook was worried about Twitter. And they used Instagram to really kind of poach stuff away from Twitter. And I'm almost kind of wondering is Facebook the quarterback in this situation and they're using Instagram kind of like a lineman? Really just the thing that hits the threats, in order to preserve home base of Facebook?Yeah, I would say that, that's a pretty good interpretation because when you look at something like reels, do we need reels? Do people need that on Instagram? When Instagram still had its founders and they copied Snapchat stories, Snapchat was a threat for sure, especially among that younger demographic. But there was also a real reason that they needed to do it for their user base because people were incredibly anxious about posting on Instagram. And that anxiety was actually bad for growth. Because if you don't think that your life is worth posting about, you are going to post less. And when you look at Instagram, it's not going to be full of content from your friends who were also all anxious, it's going to be content from celebrities. And then you'll think, "Nobody hangs out here anymore." And the app dies. That was the thesis of why they did Instagram stories, so there would be some lower pressure way to post on Instagram. But when you think about reels, the reason for reels was, "Oh my God, everybody loves TikTok. We need reels." And then, you are Mark Zuckerberg solving a business problem. You're not Instagram solving a user problem.It seems like TikTok is really giving them a real run for their money. I know that Snapchat took a ding from the adaptation of stories, but is actually kind of still doing decently to this day. But TikTok really seems like it's been the first thing that really has kind of stolen Instagram's thunder, particularly in the past year.Well, I would say that TikTok, yes, in part, because Facebook is so determined to move in the same direction that TikTok is moving. One of the things that's interesting about Snapchat is they're trying to do things in their own unique way. It's a little quirky and it doesn't necessarily fit with what you expect every social network to be doing.But Instagram is kind of just hitting back with the same play. And I think that in that sense, you get an app that strays a little bit from its purpose. And when you think about what Instagram's purpose is now, it used to be very clear. There's a place where you go to share the highlights of your life, and make your life appear more beautiful and perfect than it actually is. And discover corners of society that maybe you didn't know about before.Now, you have reels, you have IGTV, you have regular posts, you have Explore, you have all of these different components of Instagram. You have direct messaging, which is combined with Facebook messenger. You have text posts, you have memes. It's just like, it's everything to everyone.And I think that that becomes difficult.That's really interesting. There's one thing that I wanted to talk about from your book that has to do kind of with the recent news, and that has to do with kind of teens using Facebook. A lot of what you cover in the book is just how development happened on the platform for a while, that really came from its user base. Like, teens came up with the idea of making Finstas and they had to find out — why are Finstas a thing?And then, I guess, I'm kind of curious, as we kind of saw with some of the recent revelations, this isn't really a particularly healthy platform for its users. Can you just expand on some of the stuff that you wrote about in the book when it came to youth users, and then how that kind of reflects on some of the things that we've seen in the past two weeks?Yeah, I talked a little bit about this, about the intense anxiety for posting on Instagram and why that was bad. But Instagram didn't really look into this, in any formal way until around 2015. And when they did, they heard a lot from teens about how hard it was on them to keep up appearances on Instagram. And teens had all sorts of strategies. Some would just delete their entire grid of photos every month and post a new one, or they would try to find a way to, as you said, have a fake Instagram, which is really their real Instagram. And, of course, they use things like filters for their faces to make themselves appear more attractive, get rid of their acne, whiten their teeth, whatever the case may be.The way that Instagram learned a lot more about teens is they would have this Thursday teen observation, where they would have a bunch of product people, sometimes including Instagram's CEO, sitting at this table. And there was this one way mirror and the teens are on the other side discussing the new products that Instagram is building. And they often don't know that it's Instagram building them. But all the things that they're saying about it are being observed by this internal team drinking a bottle of wine on a Thursday night.That's wild.And that's how the product development works at Facebook. I mean, there's a lot of focus grouping, a lot of observation. The goal isn't like, "Let's make sure this is a product that's healthy for our users.", as much as it's, "Are people going to use this? Is it going to increase their time spent on the platform? Is it going to increase engagement with Instagram? Is it going to improve our retention?" All of those things.Remind me — I think that some of the things that came out — were there opportunities to install fixes, whether it was on Facebook or Instagram, I don't recall which. But that got shut down because engagement did not go up.Right. If there is a solution to some wellbeing problem that also dings at engagement, it's really just not going to work. I mean, look what they did, they were going to get rid of likes, and they'll say that they did, but the likes still exist. You can just hide them. And that's the way that they've done a lot of their wellbeing initiatives. For example, if you want to not see all of the comments that are calling you a slut, you just mute the word, slut. Right?Oh, God.But that doesn't mean that you're not getting those comments. And if you're being attacked, you kind of want to see it. I think that, that's the problem with likes too. If you're hiding your likes, but you're still getting that score every day on your photos it's like telling someone, "You can have a test, but we're not going to show you the grade, if you don't want to see it." Everyone wants to see what grade they got on the test. It's irresistible.And it's not just the likes. It's the followers, it's the comments, it's the views on your stories, the order of people who view your story, everything gets obsessive. You can turn your account into a business account and see, "Oh, I have an audience that is more heavily female and concentrated in Brazil. And they look at my profile in between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00 PM most." If you are a young person in the world, you can know that much about what people think about you. It's not a real measure of how relevant or popular or interesting or exciting your life is. It is a measure of how well you're playing the game.You're in charge of big tech coverage at Bloomberg. In the end of September, they had an editorial that basically said, "Instagram is no place for kids." But also, stop me if they canceled this, but Facebook is literally building an Instagram for kids. [Ed note: the day after we recorded this they did in fact delay it] At a certain point, are they going to have an obligation under any of the online protection acts that we have for children who use the internet? At what point does this become more of a liability for them than anything else?Well, that is certainly something that everyone in Washington is up in arms about, on both sides of the aisle. We've seen a lot of screaming matches, a lot of strongly worded emails. The question is can you stop them from doing it? I don't really think that you can.They did roll out Messenger Kids. And that, of course, had a lot of similar concerns and privacy issues. But the product has been relatively successful. We haven't gotten strong numbers, but it does exist and it is used. I think Instagram, it's hard to make an Instagram for kids that doesn't use tons of images of children in it. Right? Instagram is about images.So, I'm curious to see what that product looks like. The thesis is that kids use Instagram no matter what. So, we want to make a safe space for them. But Instagram hasn't made a very strong effort to root out the under-13 audience on Instagram. They've made a few steps towards better age verification, but it's really easy to find nine year olds hanging out on Instagram and just using it the way we all use it.It sounds a little bit like what the tobacco industry had to deal with. Again, underage smoking was not considered a very good thing. It happened, absolutely. And they got dinged for not doing enough to stop it. And it wasn't particularly healthy for anyone involved in it.That, though, is a very highly regulated industry now. And this social media industry, I mean, how do you even regulate it? It's speech by people. If you are the government and you say, "Well, we don't want Facebook to show anyone anti-vaccine misinformation." Well, then you have to define that. It just gets really complicated. In that category, of course, the science has changed over the course of many months.It's a tricky problem to solve. What I hope happens when people read the book is they understand the infrastructure of these products, the motivations of these executives, the grow-at-all-costs mentality at Facebook, and are able to make healthier decisions for themselves, informed decisions about how they want to use the products with some level of intention. And maybe that's a way to help it be healthier.All right. So, to make an informed decision, you have got to be informed and the book is No Filter. It won a bunch of best book awards last year, right? Like NPR, the Economist, I think McKinsey, rightIt was the Financial Times McKinsey Business Book of the Year, which was very exciting!Very cool! And it's out in paperback now, and folks can get it anywhere.Anywhere. Anywhere books are sold, eBooks, audio books, it's there,Sick. And then where can folks find you?I am on Twitter and Instagram and everywhere that people are on the internet these days.If you have anything you'd like to see in this Sunday special, shoot me an email. Comment below! Thanks for reading, and thanks so much for supporting Numlock.Thank you so much for becoming a paid subscriber! Send links to me on Twitter at @WaltHickey or email me with numbers, tips, or feedback at walt@numlock.news. Get full access to Numlock News at www.numlock.com/subscribe

Social media platform TikTok has banned influencers from promoting cryptocurrency. Restricted are what the platform calls “branded content,” or paid advertisements. TikTok also banned influencers from promoting other financial products, such as loans, credit cards, forex trading, get-rich-quick schemes and penny auctions. But TikTok's ban only extends to branded content where there's a direct commercial relationship. So there's no ban on pumping cryptocurrencies for free.#TikTok #Cryptocurrency #Altcoins~TikTok Banned Paid Crypto Shill Influencer Promotions

This week, Maria is talking about one of the most unique dating apps on the internet right now, Snack, with its founder Kim Kaplan! Kim Kaplan was one of the earliest employees at Plenty of Fish. She led product marketing and revenue on the executive team that eventually sold PoF to Match Group for $575 million in 2015. After a two year hiatus after Plenty of Fish, where she spent her time advising and angel investing, she scrolled on TikTok and saw that many users were creating essentially dating video profiles. But TikTok did not have the interface to support this. That's when the dating app Snack was born!  Download the Snack dating app for iPhone  Follow Snack on Instagram  Follow Snack on TikTok Enroll in the next Agape Intensive: https://agapematch.com/agape-group-coaching-intensive/  Follow Maria on Instagram Follow Maria on TikTok Have a question for Maria? Visit http://askamatchmaker.com

With just a little over two years as the CEO and co-founder of The Influencer Marketing Factory, Alessandro Bogliari and his team have built an amazing global influencer marketing agency. They help brands and companies launch influencer marketing campaigns on TikTok, Instagram, and Youtube. Alessandro joins us today to talk about how to identify trends and what to do in order to really separate your agency from everybody else. 3 Golden Nuggets 1. Starting on a budget. Growing his company from just two workers to 20 in a short amount of time, Alessandro highlights the importance of being able to grow your agency on a budget. You can still get amazing results on a budget rather than spending money you don’t have. 2. Don’t just hop on a trend. Every time you create content for social media you should always take into account the specific medium, demographics, and type of user experience. Don’t just hop on the new hot thing before you understand it.    3. Be curious. Dedicate some time to research, listen, and read about what’s trending right now. Engage with the new generations and given let them show you how they use social media. You have to keep up. Don’t just read about the new thing in the newspaper, because by the time it gets there, it’s already been happening for a month and it's old news. YOUTUBE VIDEO AUDIO LINK Sponsors and Resources Oribi: Today's episode of the Smart Agency Masterclass is sponsored by Oribi. Check out Oribi.io/smartagency for a free trial. Plus when you sign up for Oribi get 20% off the first three months with promo code: Smart Agency Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio | Stitcher | Radio FM HEADLINE Jason: [00:00:00] On this episode, I talk with an amazing agency owner who's grown his agency to really big and in a very short time for really looking at the trends. And so we go through, how can you identify the trends and what do you actually need to do in order to do that major land grab and really separate your agency from everybody else? It's a really cool story. I hope enjoy it. Hey Alessandro, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. Alessandro: [00:00:30] Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Jason. Jason: [00:00:32] Yes. I'm excited to have you on and tell your story. So tell us who you are and what do you do? Alessandro: [00:00:39] Sure I am the CEO and co-founder of The Influencer Marketing Factory. We are a global influencer marketing agency. We specialize mostly in TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram. Um, we are based in the States, but we also have people in Europe I'm from Italy originally. So I understand the importance of having people both in the US and Europe. And we mostly help the brands and companies from Fortune 100 up to, you know, direct to consumer stuff of companies, get in front and engage with gen Z and millennials on like major social media. So that's what we do. We help them from the beginning of the like, understanding the KPIs up to reporting and digital analysis. Jason: [00:01:17] That's awesome. Now, how did you get started? Alessandro: [00:01:20] Uh, I started a couple of years ago. So the agency is like, you know, fairly new. Uh, started no funding, no VC, just a couple of people. Uh, both Italian and because we started that as a new journey and we understood before I'd say anyone else I think is like, you know, one of the few agencies that understood the potential of TikTok, back in late 2020, early 2019. Although other agencies and companies were still thinking that like, you know, TikToK was a kids app. It was just something for lip-sync and dancing, but I was a big fan of Vine and it was discontinued, but I was so love with it. When I saw TikTok and I was watching so many videos on YouTube about TikTok compilations, it was a different environment. It was a little bit more cringy, let's say that, you know, with furries and gamers and everything, but I saw the potential. I was seeing Instagram going down in terms of organic creation. And TikTok was giving the opportunity in a really democratic way to give like in a meritocratic way for everyone to get the spotlight that they did deserve. And so we said, let's really focus on that and invest on that. And we, we, we have done that. We started growing, we started getting amazing clients on like Sony Music, Universal, Warner Music Group. And then we got Google and some others. And these friends. And yeah, from two people now we're 20. Again, between Europe and the States. And, uh, so again, it started like, you know, uh, just totally like organic and we're actually growing in that way. And I'm so proud of what we have achieved so far. Jason: [00:02:51] Tell me a lot of people listening want to understand, because there's always new shiny red objects out there. Okay. And so kind of what you described is going after the shiny red object and it actually working, which is amazing. And there's always, you know, new apps coming out like clubhouse is out and everyone's talking about it and you know, saying, oh, that's the next big thing and all that kind of stuff. So tell me the, kind of the, the story about. How did you go, all right, let's go all in on this and not just get distracted by all those other things. And then how did that turn into landing the Fortune 100 companies that you're talking about. Cause a lot of people are going well, how do you land some of these big brands? Like I remember that's how, you know, my agency brain worked many years ago going, man, how does this one company get, you know, to work with Coke and how does this one company get to work with Home Depot and that kind of stuff. And then, so tell that story a little bit. Alessandro: [00:03:51] Yeah, of course. I have to say that I have to mention that I've done many years as a growth hacker and a growth marketer, as you want to call it. So it's a lot of like out of the box marketing ideas, it's a lot of like data scraping, SEO, both like white and black and gray, you know. It's understanding how you can be on a budget. And still get amazing results also without adding maybe millions in your pockets. Because when we started, you know, we, we started at zero in terms of investments. So you have to think about like, okay, what is the typical way we don't have the money to do that. How can you start in a little way? And so, to be honest, like I spent a lot time doing SEO since day one and, um, thanks to that, we got the majority, like we get 95% of our clients, maybe now 90 because of a lot of it it's retention and word of mouth. But we've got those thanks to SEO, good positioning, referrals, the position we’re on listed. I mean, now just today we are fourth on Google for in terms of marketing agency. And, again, we started two years ago. If you look for TikTok, like, marketing agency, we are second in the US. So what we have done is that, while we saw for that opportunity especially for TikTok, we created a landing page. And we started doing some backlinking and the competition was zero, right? Like no one had anything about TikToK. And we went all in. We had nothing to lose. We were not like in, in this for two-three years, we were starting from a few weeks. So we said, you know, why go, yeah I mean, we were doing Instagram and YouTube of course, but it was so competitive. So we said how we can get like an advantage on that and getting in on SEO where no one is dealing there. That was TikTok, we thought. We did that, we did our landing page, easy one. We created some really good backlinks. I've been also working a lot with journalist that we'd did a lot of for free. That's why we have been featured on a lot of publications. Writers, Wallstreet Journal. I personally write on Forbes and many others. We got on ID week and so on. So, you know, those really good backlinks at Google understands that they are valuable and you start getting the right positioning. And what happened is that managers at these big companies, they, what did they do, they, our people hopped on a ride, so they go on Google and they look for a solution and they find you. And then after that to start creating case studies, you build up your credibility, your awareness of your branding, your positioning, and after that. If Sony is doing something, Universal Music and Warner Music Group, are going to look at that and say, hey, they are doing this, can we do that? They do some digging and then they found out about the company or the agency behind that, and we start growing. So it's, step-by-step, it's super long. It's super like, you know, sometimes probably it takes a lot of energy, but again, you can start for some action. I think the SEO is an amazing way to start, especially if you think about budget. Jason: [00:06:54] If you're like many agency owners, it's very hard to show results and show value to your clients for the hard work that you've done. And up until now, you've probably been using Google Analytics, which is really kind of clunky and hard to use and just been around a long time. And there really hasn't been an alternative until now. And I want to tell you a little bit about, Oribi now I've checked out this tool and it's really pretty cool. It doesn't require any code for you to track interactions and conversions. There's no more jumping from different platforms. You can track your social and paid media really all in one place. And it really allows you to build smart funnels and get tons of insights. I mean, literally I've even set it up where I could say, I want this visitor to get to this particular page and it will tell me what's the likely chance that they actually get to this page and what pages are actually coming from. It's really pretty cool. So, if you want to really kind of get away from Google analytics, I want you to check them out, go to Oribi oribi.io/smartagency. And just for my listeners, you're going to get 20% off the, for the first three months using coupon code smart agency. I think it's really, really smart. Like you said, there's nothing for you to lose. Like let's just go after TikTok, there's no one doing it. And especially if a big company comes to you for TikTok, they're going to want Instagram and all the other ones out there. So it's just a really smart strategy. And I like how you systematically went through it. Let's kind of switch focus a little bit, and let's talk about Instagram Reels and TikToK, and let's have some fun about how agencies could use it, because I see a lot of agencies using it very poorly. So let's talk, what's working, you know, when it comes to developing that kind of content or content strategy around it. Alessandro: [00:09:01] Definitely. Yeah. Good question. I can see a lot of companies that are trying to understand the differences. We just released one week ago, uh, an infographic about basically Reels versus TikTok. We have scrapped and analyzed the 60 active influencers on both platforms that, that, you know, like uploaded at least many videos. And what we noticed is that in terms of the average views it's pretty the same, like the same in terms of like, you know, of course, like, you know, there are some people getting 50 million, others are getting less, but on average we saw the same. Instagram Reels, Instagram is definitely pushing a lot Instagram Reels, but just because they want to be like, you know, still they're the cool kids, right? They want still to be in a way understanding, especially gen Z. But what we noticed is that this is that, this is what I say all the time. Instagram Reels is still, in my opinion, even if it's pushing, Instagram, it is still network-oriented, you know? So you follow your, your friends and friends of friends, but at the end of the day, it's mostly about like the people that you start following. While on TikTok, it's a sort of an inverse funnel. No matter what we're following, you're going to see all the time, new content, amazing content from people that you do not follow. Based on the content that you liked. So it's more content-oriented. That means that, um, what we see is that we can see on TikToK, a better engagement into sub-community. Whenever you go to a TikTok video and there is a trend, or there is a meme on that video, you're going to find tons of people commenting on that and making references to maybe a sub-Reddit that they saw like, you know, some time ago. Or they are talking about now, like, you know, the Game Stop, everything that happened there. While, um, Instagram it's, a bit more still on the likes, but the comments are more like, you know, I  want to say didascalic, but, um, they have less engagement and community, like no type of things. So again, they are pushing a lot on that. But TikTok, the big difference is the strong community. So brands, I think that they should understand that, that difference. What I say all the time is that you, if you're a brand, you cannot expect to take it on YouTube video, cut it, putting it vertical and put it on TikTok. It's a different medium, different demographics, different type of user experience. You should shoot all the time a video thinking about the type of medium is going to go. The same also goes for Instagram reels and TikTok. Just one week ago Instagram said, if you're going to put videos with TikTok watermark on it, we're going to show it to less people, right? They want to have original content on that. So I think that a lot of brands sometimes fail it because they make cringey media started to jump on trends, but they have the opposite effect. They try to be cool, but actually they don't understand what happens. That's why I think that only few brands, whenever they give the opportunity to gen Z employees in the company to jump on that and actually really like make content, in that way they kill it because it's not trying to recreate something that is cool, but actually it's sending someone that understands their own generation and make that type of content. So long story short, make a content all the time for the right type of audience, the right type of medium, and try not to repurpose the same on different social media, because the majority of times it's just not going to work. Jason: [00:12:17] Yeah, it's kind of like doing a commercial for CNN and then running that same commercial on the Cartoon Network. Alessandro: [00:12:23] Yeah. Exactly. Jason: [00:12:24] Or Nickelodeon, I would be like, people are going to be like, what, what is this? Alessandro: [00:12:29] Yeah, exactly. Jason: [00:12:31] Awesome. Well, this has all been great, Alessandro. Is there anything I did not ask you that you think would benefit the agency owners listening in? Alessandro: [00:12:40] I'd say, try all the time to understand what is trending. Like not only of course reading the different newspapers out there. Whenever you read the news, it means that it's already been happening for a month, you know, in the communities. Go on, uh, different apps go on the app store, like, and see what apps are trending. What is going to be the future of things. Whenever possible, talk with gen Z and millennials to understand what is really happening in the background, you know, behind the scenes, because they're gonna go and look for the next app. Right now it's TikTok, what is it going to be next. Personally, I'm watching a lot closely what is happening in China for such a commerce. And I'm pretty sure that we all know what is happening there. Uh, like, it started already two years ago. It's going to be now in the US and after in the, in Europe and then after Latin America. So instead of just watching what is happening on, in the US and only closely, like, reading the newspaper, try to get like really in the work in progress. Talk with people that are creating the next trends. And if you jump on those and you're going to be, as we have done in the past, that the agencies that are going to not just understanding those. But understand a blue ocean market getting there before the others and you're going to have a super competitive advantage. So yeah, listen, read a lot that talk with people, do surveys, getting the game there because at the time that you see that in the newspaper, it's already old. Jason: [00:14:03] I love it. I love it, man. And, uh, what's the website people can go and check you guys out. Alessandro: [00:14:08] Sure, uh, they can check on influencermarketingfactory.com. It's our website. They're going to find, find the case studies. We also trying to keep up like it with different blog posts about of course, like, you know, TikTok, but also now more and more on social commerce, we're going to also work now in our reports. So yes, that is the best way to do that. And I need to want also just to connect with me. Uh, you know, they can find me on Instagram with @alexeidos, that is my username, if they want to. And I'm always open to like, you know, get, if they have any questions super epic to like, you know, help anyone that wants maybe to start agency or some young people that want to understand more about what does it mean to be an entrepreneur. Jason: [00:14:44] Awesome man. Well, thanks so much to go check out those resources. And if you want to be surrounded by amazing people that can see the things you might not be able to see that understand the agency world, and you want to be in the know and really see those trends. I would like to invite all of you to go check out the Digital Agency Elite. This is our exclusive agency owner mastermind, where we're constantly scaling faster. We're growing and having a lot of fun. So make sure you guys go to digitalagencyelite.com and until next time have a Swenk day.

Are you fed up of your content not getting seen by enough people? Marketing expert and head 'nerd' Tom gives you the lowdown on the viral video social media platform you need to be on! Until recently, TikTok was seen as a platform for kids, and their cutesy dancing. But TikTok is about way more than that now. As you'll hear Tom explain, you're really missing out if you don't include the platform as part of your marketing strategy. Our head 'Nerd' Tom is using it, and hopefully, in this episode he's going to convince you to do the same. He has learned the value of TikTok as a marketing channel, and wants to share it with you, the fellow content marketer. You'll learn all about how Tom first discovered its power as a reach magnet, and you'll hear him describe his own favourite TikTok'ers including this one. After you've listened, please do give the show your honest review. Please do click whichever button your favourite app uses to keep you updated with new episodes, whether that's subscribe or follow! The Nauti Nerds is a Nautilus Marketing podcast.

MORE companies are joining the social media advertising boycott! Microsoft is closing all of their retail stores and shutting down Mixer! TikTok is SUPER spying on you! Olympus is out of the camera game! Focals got sold to Google! WWDC happened last week! And we should probably chat about the government's plans to end encryption... Let's get our tech week started right! Stories This Week: LG Velvet Live Unboxing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Z3_R6avHRw Audeze LCD-1 Review: WOW https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/23/audeze-lcd-1-review-my-first-planar-magnetic-headphones-wow/ LG Velvet By The Benchmarks https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/23/lg-velvet-by-the-benchmarks/ Panasonic's TOUGH Android Tablet https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/24/panasonic-toughbook-fz-a3-android-gets-tough/ Creator Chat: TK Bay RETURNS! https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/26/sggqa-159-creator-chat-tk-bay-returns/ LG Velvet Dual Screen Gaming https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/26/lg-velvet-setup-dual-screen-gaming-right/ Tech Reviewers: Familiar doesn't always mean “better” https://somegadgetguy.com/2020/06/28/tech-reviewers-familiar-doesnt-automatically-mean-better/ Verizon out of social media advertising https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/25/verizon-pulling-advertising-from-facebook-and-instagram.html Starbucks out https://stories.starbucks.com/stories/2020/creating-welcoming-and-inclusive-online-communities/ Coca-Cola out https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/jun/26/facebook-policies-hate-speech-advertisers-unilever Microsoft closes retail stores https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/26/microsoft-to-close-retail-stores.html Microsoft to shutter Mixer https://blog.mixer.com/2020/06/22/the-next-step-for-mixer/ iOS14 discovers TikTok Spying https://mashable.com/article/iphone-ios-14-privacy-clipboard-apple-apps/ But TikTok might be watching you even more than that https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/ EARN IT Act to end encryption on private communication https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/earn-it-bill-governments-not-so-secret-plan-scan-every-message-online TOP STORIES OF THE WEEK ON r/GLOWINGRECTANGLES https://www.reddit.com/r/glowingrectangles/top/?t=week Olympus says goodbye to cameras https://www.engadget.com/olympus-selling-consumer-camera-business-093750446.html Android phones set to rise even higher in price next year https://www.phonearena.com/news/qualcomm-could-raise-price-of-next-flagship-5g-chip_id125598 Focals by North bought by Google https://9to5google.com/2020/06/25/alphabet-north-focals/ Juan Rambles on about Apple or some stuff… Support SomeGadgetGuy! The complete list of how you can contribute to production on this channel AND get yourself some cool stuff! Patreon, Amazon, Humble Bundle, OnePlus, Audible, Merch, and MORE! https://somegadgetguy.com/2012/07/15/support-somegadgetguy-get-cool-stuff/ SomeGadgetGuy's Gear List: Panasonic G85 http://amzn.to/2oKNwAm Panasonic 15mm f/1.7 http://amzn.to/2qWH0UZ Panasonic 25mm f/1.7 http://amzn.to/2ohTzsd Audio-Technica Lavalier https://amzn.to/2WywofM Focusrite 6i6 Audio Interface http://amzn.to/2p5l7py Shure SM57 Microphone http://amzn.to/2oypnLm Cloudlifter CL1 http://amzn.to/2oKN9G5 LED Light Panels http://amzn.to/2oy60ls AJA U-TAP HDMI http://amzn.to/2wfprBF Elgato HD S http://amzn.to/2p95Unu SUBSCRIBE TO #SGGQA! SGGQA Podcast RSS: http://goo.gl/oSUjvi SGGQA Podcast on Spotify: https://goo.gl/uyuSsj SGGQA Podcast Google Play https://goo.gl/ABF7Up SGGQA Podcast iTunes: https://goo.gl/YUcyS7 SGGQA Podcast on Stitcher: http://goo.gl/cyazfY SGGQA Podcast on PlayerFM: https://goo.gl/34B8SG SGGQA Podcast on Archive.org: https://goo.gl/9zh4pK Juan Carlos Bagnell on Twitch – http://Twitch.tv/SomeGadgetGuy Juan Carlos Bagnell on Twitter – http://Twitter.com/SomeGadgetGuy Juan on Instagram – http://instagram.com/somegadgetguy Support SomeGadgetGuy Production: http://amzn.com/w/34V1TR2551P6M Links on this page may be affiliate links which help support production on this website. Support Talking Tech with SomeGadgetGuy by donating to their Tip Jar: https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/talking-tech-with-somegadgetgu Find out more at https://talking-tech-with-somegadgetgu.pinecast.co This podcast is powered by Pinecast. Try Pinecast for free, forever, no credit card required. If you decide to upgrade, use coupon code r-c117ce for 40% off for 4 months, and support Talking Tech with SomeGadgetGuy.

There's a new kid in town called TikTok, and it's not just for thirteen-year-olds. In this podcast episode, I'm talking to Evey Alvarez-Flores from Evey's Creations about what you need to know about TikTok for your business. One thing I always recommend is to jump on a platform before it gets too popular. It's the easiest time to grow your page. Of course, you have to take a risk to do that because what if that platform fizzles? But TikTok is exploding as we speak. I think you are going to be hearing more and more about it. And I believe it's here to stay. So listen to this episode to begin to understand the power of the platform. And I definitely recommend you download the app, if you haven't. Start playing around with it. One thing I have to say... it's fun! Show Notes: MiloTree MiloTree Membership Program Evey's Creations MiloTree Mastermind Facebook Group Old Fashioned Milk Paint Unicorn Spit CatchMyParty TikTok MiloTree TikTok Catch My Party Subscribe to The Blogger Genius Podcast: iTunes Google Play Stitcher YouTube Imagine a world where growing your social media followers and email list was easy… It can be with MiloTree! Try the MiloTree pop-up app on your blog for 30 days risk-free! Let your MiloTree pop-ups help you get to that next level by turning your visitors into email subscribers and social media followers on Instagram, Pinterest, Facebook, and YouTube. Sign up today! Install your MiloTree pop-ups on your site in under two minutes. Sign up for MiloTree now and get your first 30 DAYS FREE!

Social media can be hard to keep up with. But for entrepreneurs, every marketing opportunity counts.  So what's up with TikTok? There's always a “next big thing” in social media, and many platforms are more hype than usefulness. But TikTok is making waves, and its success has reached a point where ignoring it is no […] The post MBA1332 What is TikTok and Do You Need To Start Using It? + Free Ride Friday! appeared first on The $100 MBA.