Podcasts about Neo4j

How do you uncover misinformation and financial fraud hidden in plain sight across thousands of digital platforms during a global election cycle? In this episode, I spoke with Jim Webber, Chief Scientist at Neo4j, to explore how graph database technology is being used to expose coordinated disinformation campaigns, empower AI systems, and help enterprises manage the complexity of modern data. At the heart of our conversation is the story of the ElectionGraph Project, where Syracuse University used Neo4j's graph technology to investigate political ad spend on Meta platforms. What they discovered was not just political messaging, but sophisticated scams disguised as legitimate campaigns. These efforts, targeting civically engaged users, used merchandise giveaways as a front to harvest credit card details and enroll victims in recurring billing traps. Traditional analytics would have struggled to trace these relationships, but graph databases allowed researchers to map and understand the deeper connections between thousands of entities. We also unpack how graph technology goes far beyond fraud detection. Jim explains why graph databases are now foundational for businesses building AI systems, particularly those using Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) to reduce hallucinations and improve decision making. Whether it's helping enterprises respond to customer needs or enabling AI agents to take action in real time, graphs provide the structure and context needed for reliable outcomes. Jim also shares the backstory behind Klarna's data transformation, where the company embraced knowledge graphs at the core of its operations and replaced major systems, including parts of Salesforce. It's a striking example of what becomes possible when a business commits to connected data as a strategic asset. From misinformation to intelligent automation, this episode dives into the real-world value of graph technology in 2025. Are you thinking critically about how your data infrastructure supports your AI ambitions?

Von Kanten und Knoten: Ein Einstieg in Graph-DatenbankenWelche Relationen die einzelnen Datensätze in deiner Datenbank haben, kann eine Rolle bei der Entscheidung spielen, welche Art von Datenbank du am besten einsetzen solltest. Wenn du unabhängige Datensätze hast, die keine Relation zueinander haben oder häufige One to Many-Relationen, sind relationale Datenbanken gut geeignet. Wenn du jedoch sehr viele Many to Many Relationen hast, spielt eine Datenbank-Art ihre Vorteile aus: Graph Datenbanken.Ein gutes Beispiel sind wohl soziale Netzwerke wie LinkedIn oder Facebook, wo Events, Personen, Firmen und Posts mit Kommentaren eine durchgehende Beziehung zueinander haben. Auch bekannt als Social Graph. Natürlich kann dies auch alles in einer relationalen Datenbank gespeichert werden, aber Fragen wie “Gib mir bitte alle Personen, über die ich im 3. Grad verbunden bin, die aus Deutschland kommen und bei Aldi gearbeitet haben” sind schwer zu beantworten. Für Graph-Datenbanken jedoch ein Klacks. Grund genug, diesem Thema eine Bühne zu geben. Darum geht es in dieser Episode.In dem Interview mit dem Experten Michael Hunger klären wir, was eine Graph-Datenbank ist, welche Anwendungsfälle sich dadurch besser abbilden lassen, als z. B. in relationalen Datenbanken, was der Ursprung von Graph Datenbanken ist, was der Unterschied eines Property-Graph-Model und dem Triple-Store-Model ist, wie man mithilfe von Sprachen wie Cypher, SPARQL und Datalog, Daten aus einem Graph extrahiert, für welche Use Cases dies ggf. nicht die richtige Datenstruktur ist und geben einen Einblick in die Themen Knowledge Graphen, LLMs und GraphRAG.Bonus: Was der Film Matrix mit Graph-Datenbanken zu tun hat.Unsere aktuellen Werbepartner findest du auf https://engineeringkiosk.dev/partnersDas schnelle Feedback zur Episode:

In this episode I speak to Michael Hunger of Neo4j about the vector database's history and how the product copes with changes in the technology industry around them.Try RaycastWant to improve your productivity on macOS with a Shortcut to everything? Try Raycast, and get 10% off with the link, go.chrischinchilla.com/raycast For show notes and an interactive transcript, visit chrischinchilla.com/podcast/To reach out and say hello, visit chrischinchilla.com/contact/To support the show for ad-free listening and extra content, visit chrischinchilla.com/support/

In this episode today's guest is Celine Wüst, a master's student at ETH Zurich specializing in secure and reliable systems, shares her work on automated software testing for graph databases. Celine shows how fuzzing—the process of automatically generating complex queries—helps uncover hidden bugs in graph database management systems like Neo4j, FalconDB, and Apache AGE. Key insights include how state-aware query generation can detect critical issues like buffer overflows and crashes, the challenges of debugging complex database behaviors, and the importance of security-focused software testing. We'll also find out which Graph DB company offers swag for finding bugs in its software and get Celine's advice about which graph DB to use. ------------------------------- Want to listen ad-free?  Try our Graphs Course?  Join Data Skeptic+ for $5 / month of $50 / year https://plus.dataskeptic.com

How can we make AI models more reliable and accurate? Tune in to this episode of DM Radio as we explore Retrieval-Augmented Generation (RAG) and Graph RAG—two innovative approaches that keep large language models grounded, relevant, and free from hallucinations. Host Eric Kavanaugh welcomes Philip Rathle, CTO of Neo4j, and Jon Brewton, CEO of data², to discuss how knowledge graphs enhance AI's ability to deliver precise, explainable, and context-aware insights.

On this episode of the Crazy Wisdom Podcast, I, Stewart Alsop, sit down with Brendon Wong, the founder of Unize.org. We explore Brendon's work in knowledge management, touching on his recent talk at Nodes 2024 about using AI to generate knowledge graphs and trends in the field. Our conversation covers the evolution of personal and organizational knowledge management, the future of object-oriented systems, the integration of AI with knowledge graphs, and the challenges of autonomous agents. For more on Brendon's work, check out unize.org and his articles at web10.ai.Check out this GPT we trained on the conversation!Timestamps00:00 Introduction to the Crazy Wisdom Podcast00:35 Exploring Unise: A Knowledge Management App01:01 The Evolution of Knowledge Management02:32 Personal Knowledge Management Trends03:10 Object-Oriented Knowledge Management05:27 The Future of Knowledge Graphs and AI10:37 Challenges in Simulating the Human Mind22:04 Knowledge Management in Organizations26:57 The Role of Autonomous Agents30:00 Personal Experiences with Sleep Aids30:07 Unique Human Perceptions32:08 Knowledge Management Journey33:31 Personal Knowledge Management Systems34:36 Challenges in Knowledge Management35:26 Future of Knowledge Management with AI36:29 Melatonin and Sleep Patterns37:30 AI and the Future of the Internet43:39 Reasoning and AI Limitations48:33 The Future of AI and Human Reasoning52:43 Conclusion and Contact InformationKey InsightsThe Evolution of Knowledge Management: Brendon Wong highlights how knowledge management has evolved from personal note-taking systems to sophisticated, object-oriented models. He emphasizes the shift from traditional page-based structures, like those in Roam Research and Notion, to systems that treat information as interconnected objects with defined types and properties, enhancing both personal and organizational knowledge workflows.The Future Lies in Object-Oriented Knowledge Systems: Brendon introduces the concept of object-oriented knowledge management, where data is organized as distinct objects (e.g., books, restaurants, ideas) with specific attributes and relationships. This approach enables more dynamic organization, easier data retrieval, and better contextual understanding, setting the stage for future advancements in knowledge-based applications.AI and Knowledge Graphs Are a Powerful Combination: Brendon discusses the synergy between AI and knowledge graphs, explaining how AI can generate, maintain, and interact with complex knowledge structures. This integration enhances memory, reasoning, and information retrieval capabilities, allowing AI systems to support more nuanced and context-aware decision-making processes.The Limitations of Current AI Models: While AI models like LLMs have impressive capabilities, Brendon points out their limitations, particularly in reasoning and long-term memory. He notes that current models excel at pattern recognition but struggle with higher-level reasoning tasks, often producing hallucinations when faced with unfamiliar or niche topics.Challenges in Organizational Knowledge Management: Brendon and Stewart discuss the persistent challenges of implementing knowledge management in organizations. Despite its critical role, knowledge management is often underappreciated and the first to be cut during budget reductions. The conversation highlights the need for systems that are both intuitive and capable of reducing the manual burden on users.The Potential and Pitfalls of Autonomous Agents: The episode explores the growing interest in autonomous and semi-autonomous agents powered by AI. While these agents can perform tasks with minimal human intervention, Brendon notes that the technology is still in its infancy, with limited real-world applications and significant room for improvement, particularly in reliability and task generalization.Reimagining the Future of the Internet with Web 10: Brendon shares his vision for Web 10, an ambitious rethinking of the internet where knowledge is better structured, verified, and interconnected. This future internet would address current issues like misinformation and data fragmentation, creating a more reliable and meaningful digital ecosystem powered by AI-driven knowledge graphs.

Did you know that adding a simple Code Interpreter took o3 from 9.2% to 32% on FrontierMath? The Latent Space crew is hosting a hack night Feb 11th in San Francisco focused on CodeGen use cases, co-hosted with E2B and Edge AGI; watch E2B's new workshop and RSVP here!We're happy to announce that today's guest Samuel Colvin will be teaching his very first Pydantic AI workshop at the newly announced AI Engineer NYC Workshops day on Feb 22! 25 tickets left.If you're a Python developer, it's very likely that you've heard of Pydantic. Every month, it's downloaded >300,000,000 times, making it one of the top 25 PyPi packages. OpenAI uses it in its SDK for structured outputs, it's at the core of FastAPI, and if you've followed our AI Engineer Summit conference, Jason Liu of Instructor has given two great talks about it: “Pydantic is all you need” and “Pydantic is STILL all you need”. Now, Samuel Colvin has raised $17M from Sequoia to turn Pydantic from an open source project to a full stack AI engineer platform with Logfire, their observability platform, and PydanticAI, their new agent framework.Logfire: bringing OTEL to AIOpenTelemetry recently merged Semantic Conventions for LLM workloads which provides standard definitions to track performance like gen_ai.server.time_per_output_token. In Sam's view at least 80% of new apps being built today have some sort of LLM usage in them, and just like web observability platform got replaced by cloud-first ones in the 2010s, Logfire wants to do the same for AI-first apps. If you're interested in the technical details, Logfire migrated away from Clickhouse to Datafusion for their backend. We spent some time on the importance of picking open source tools you understand and that you can actually contribute to upstream, rather than the more popular ones; listen in ~43:19 for that part.Agents are the killer app for graphsPydantic AI is their attempt at taking a lot of the learnings that LangChain and the other early LLM frameworks had, and putting Python best practices into it. At an API level, it's very similar to the other libraries: you can call LLMs, create agents, do function calling, do evals, etc.They define an “Agent” as a container with a system prompt, tools, structured result, and an LLM. Under the hood, each Agent is now a graph of function calls that can orchestrate multi-step LLM interactions. You can start simple, then move toward fully dynamic graph-based control flow if needed.“We were compelled enough by graphs once we got them right that our agent implementation [...] is now actually a graph under the hood.”Why Graphs?* More natural for complex or multi-step AI workflows.* Easy to visualize and debug with mermaid diagrams.* Potential for distributed runs, or “waiting days” between steps in certain flows.In parallel, you see folks like Emil Eifrem of Neo4j talk about GraphRAG as another place where graphs fit really well in the AI stack, so it might be time for more people to take them seriously.Full Video EpisodeLike and subscribe!Chapters* 00:00:00 Introductions* 00:00:24 Origins of Pydantic* 00:05:28 Pydantic's AI moment * 00:08:05 Why build a new agents framework?* 00:10:17 Overview of Pydantic AI* 00:12:33 Becoming a believer in graphs* 00:24:02 God Model vs Compound AI Systems* 00:28:13 Why not build an LLM gateway?* 00:31:39 Programmatic testing vs live evals* 00:35:51 Using OpenTelemetry for AI traces* 00:43:19 Why they don't use Clickhouse* 00:48:34 Competing in the observability space* 00:50:41 Licensing decisions for Pydantic and LogFire* 00:51:48 Building Pydantic.run* 00:55:24 Marimo and the future of Jupyter notebooks* 00:57:44 London's AI sceneShow Notes* Sam Colvin* Pydantic* Pydantic AI* Logfire* Pydantic.run* Zod* E2B* Arize* Langsmith* Marimo* Prefect* GLA (Google Generative Language API)* OpenTelemetry* Jason Liu* Sebastian Ramirez* Bogomil Balkansky* Hood Chatham* Jeremy Howard* Andrew LambTranscriptAlessio [00:00:03]: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI.Swyx [00:00:12]: Good morning. And today we're very excited to have Sam Colvin join us from Pydantic AI. Welcome. Sam, I heard that Pydantic is all we need. Is that true?Samuel [00:00:24]: I would say you might need Pydantic AI and Logfire as well, but it gets you a long way, that's for sure.Swyx [00:00:29]: Pydantic almost basically needs no introduction. It's almost 300 million downloads in December. And obviously, in the previous podcasts and discussions we've had with Jason Liu, he's been a big fan and promoter of Pydantic and AI.Samuel [00:00:45]: Yeah, it's weird because obviously I didn't create Pydantic originally for uses in AI, it predates LLMs. But it's like we've been lucky that it's been picked up by that community and used so widely.Swyx [00:00:58]: Actually, maybe we'll hear it. Right from you, what is Pydantic and maybe a little bit of the origin story?Samuel [00:01:04]: The best name for it, which is not quite right, is a validation library. And we get some tension around that name because it doesn't just do validation, it will do coercion by default. We now have strict mode, so you can disable that coercion. But by default, if you say you want an integer field and you get in a string of 1, 2, 3, it will convert it to 123 and a bunch of other sensible conversions. And as you can imagine, the semantics around it. Exactly when you convert and when you don't, it's complicated, but because of that, it's more than just validation. Back in 2017, when I first started it, the different thing it was doing was using type hints to define your schema. That was controversial at the time. It was genuinely disapproved of by some people. I think the success of Pydantic and libraries like FastAPI that build on top of it means that today that's no longer controversial in Python. And indeed, lots of other people have copied that route, but yeah, it's a data validation library. It uses type hints for the for the most part and obviously does all the other stuff you want, like serialization on top of that. But yeah, that's the core.Alessio [00:02:06]: Do you have any fun stories on how JSON schemas ended up being kind of like the structure output standard for LLMs? And were you involved in any of these discussions? Because I know OpenAI was, you know, one of the early adopters. So did they reach out to you? Was there kind of like a structure output console in open source that people were talking about or was it just a random?Samuel [00:02:26]: No, very much not. So I originally. Didn't implement JSON schema inside Pydantic and then Sebastian, Sebastian Ramirez, FastAPI came along and like the first I ever heard of him was over a weekend. I got like 50 emails from him or 50 like emails as he was committing to Pydantic, adding JSON schema long pre version one. So the reason it was added was for OpenAPI, which is obviously closely akin to JSON schema. And then, yeah, I don't know why it was JSON that got picked up and used by OpenAI. It was obviously very convenient for us. That's because it meant that not only can you do the validation, but because Pydantic will generate you the JSON schema, it will it kind of can be one source of source of truth for structured outputs and tools.Swyx [00:03:09]: Before we dive in further on the on the AI side of things, something I'm mildly curious about, obviously, there's Zod in JavaScript land. Every now and then there is a new sort of in vogue validation library that that takes over for quite a few years and then maybe like some something else comes along. Is Pydantic? Is it done like the core Pydantic?Samuel [00:03:30]: I've just come off a call where we were redesigning some of the internal bits. There will be a v3 at some point, which will not break people's code half as much as v2 as in v2 was the was the massive rewrite into Rust, but also fixing all the stuff that was broken back from like version zero point something that we didn't fix in v1 because it was a side project. We have plans to move some of the basically store the data in Rust types after validation. Not completely. So we're still working to design the Pythonic version of it, in order for it to be able to convert into Python types. So then if you were doing like validation and then serialization, you would never have to go via a Python type we reckon that can give us somewhere between three and five times another three to five times speed up. That's probably the biggest thing. Also, like changing how easy it is to basically extend Pydantic and define how particular types, like for example, NumPy arrays are validated and serialized. But there's also stuff going on. And for example, Jitter, the JSON library in Rust that does the JSON parsing, has SIMD implementation at the moment only for AMD64. So we can add that. We need to go and add SIMD for other instruction sets. So there's a bunch more we can do on performance. I don't think we're going to go and revolutionize Pydantic, but it's going to continue to get faster, continue, hopefully, to allow people to do more advanced things. We might add a binary format like CBOR for serialization for when you'll just want to put the data into a database and probably load it again from Pydantic. So there are some things that will come along, but for the most part, it should just get faster and cleaner.Alessio [00:05:04]: From a focus perspective, I guess, as a founder too, how did you think about the AI interest rising? And then how do you kind of prioritize, okay, this is worth going into more, and we'll talk about Pydantic AI and all of that. What was maybe your early experience with LLAMP, and when did you figure out, okay, this is something we should take seriously and focus more resources on it?Samuel [00:05:28]: I'll answer that, but I'll answer what I think is a kind of parallel question, which is Pydantic's weird, because Pydantic existed, obviously, before I was starting a company. I was working on it in my spare time, and then beginning of 22, I started working on the rewrite in Rust. And I worked on it full-time for a year and a half, and then once we started the company, people came and joined. And it was a weird project, because that would never go away. You can't get signed off inside a startup. Like, we're going to go off and three engineers are going to work full-on for a year in Python and Rust, writing like 30,000 lines of Rust just to release open-source-free Python library. The result of that has been excellent for us as a company, right? As in, it's made us remain entirely relevant. And it's like, Pydantic is not just used in the SDKs of all of the AI libraries, but I can't say which one, but one of the big foundational model companies, when they upgraded from Pydantic v1 to v2, their number one internal model... The metric of performance is time to first token. That went down by 20%. So you think about all of the actual AI going on inside, and yet at least 20% of the CPU, or at least the latency inside requests was actually Pydantic, which shows like how widely it's used. So we've benefited from doing that work, although it didn't, it would have never have made financial sense in most companies. In answer to your question about like, how do we prioritize AI, I mean, the honest truth is we've spent a lot of the last year and a half building. Good general purpose observability inside LogFire and making Pydantic good for general purpose use cases. And the AI has kind of come to us. Like we just, not that we want to get away from it, but like the appetite, uh, both in Pydantic and in LogFire to go and build with AI is enormous because it kind of makes sense, right? Like if you're starting a new greenfield project in Python today, what's the chance that you're using GenAI 80%, let's say, globally, obviously it's like a hundred percent in California, but even worldwide, it's probably 80%. Yeah. And so everyone needs that stuff. And there's so much yet to be figured out so much like space to do things better in the ecosystem in a way that like to go and implement a database that's better than Postgres is a like Sisyphean task. Whereas building, uh, tools that are better for GenAI than some of the stuff that's about now is not very difficult. Putting the actual models themselves to one side.Alessio [00:07:40]: And then at the same time, then you released Pydantic AI recently, which is, uh, um, you know, agent framework and early on, I would say everybody like, you know, Langchain and like, uh, Pydantic kind of like a first class support, a lot of these frameworks, we're trying to use you to be better. What was the decision behind we should do our own framework? Were there any design decisions that you disagree with any workloads that you think people didn't support? Well,Samuel [00:08:05]: it wasn't so much like design and workflow, although I think there were some, some things we've done differently. Yeah. I think looking in general at the ecosystem of agent frameworks, the engineering quality is far below that of the rest of the Python ecosystem. There's a bunch of stuff that we have learned how to do over the last 20 years of building Python libraries and writing Python code that seems to be abandoned by people when they build agent frameworks. Now I can kind of respect that, particularly in the very first agent frameworks, like Langchain, where they were literally figuring out how to go and do this stuff. It's completely understandable that you would like basically skip some stuff.Samuel [00:08:42]: I'm shocked by the like quality of some of the agent frameworks that have come out recently from like well-respected names, which it just seems to be opportunism and I have little time for that, but like the early ones, like I think they were just figuring out how to do stuff and just as lots of people have learned from Pydantic, we were able to learn a bit from them. I think from like the gap we saw and the thing we were frustrated by was the production readiness. And that means things like type checking, even if type checking makes it hard. Like Pydantic AI, I will put my hand up now and say it has a lot of generics and you need to, it's probably easier to use it if you've written a bit of Rust and you really understand generics, but like, and that is, we're not claiming that that makes it the easiest thing to use in all cases, we think it makes it good for production applications in big systems where type checking is a no-brainer in Python. But there are also a bunch of stuff we've learned from maintaining Pydantic over the years that we've gone and done. So every single example in Pydantic AI's documentation is run on Python. As part of tests and every single print output within an example is checked during tests. So it will always be up to date. And then a bunch of things that, like I say, are standard best practice within the rest of the Python ecosystem, but I'm not followed surprisingly by some AI libraries like coverage, linting, type checking, et cetera, et cetera, where I think these are no-brainers, but like weirdly they're not followed by some of the other libraries.Alessio [00:10:04]: And can you just give an overview of the framework itself? I think there's kind of like the. LLM calling frameworks, there are the multi-agent frameworks, there's the workflow frameworks, like what does Pydantic AI do?Samuel [00:10:17]: I glaze over a bit when I hear all of the different sorts of frameworks, but I like, and I will tell you when I built Pydantic, when I built Logfire and when I built Pydantic AI, my methodology is not to go and like research and review all of the other things. I kind of work out what I want and I go and build it and then feedback comes and we adjust. So the fundamental building block of Pydantic AI is agents. The exact definition of agents and how you want to define them. is obviously ambiguous and our things are probably sort of agent-lit, not that we would want to go and rename them to agent-lit, but like the point is you probably build them together to build something and most people will call an agent. So an agent in our case has, you know, things like a prompt, like system prompt and some tools and a structured return type if you want it, that covers the vast majority of cases. There are situations where you want to go further and the most complex workflows where you want graphs and I resisted graphs for quite a while. I was sort of of the opinion you didn't need them and you could use standard like Python flow control to do all of that stuff. I had a few arguments with people, but I basically came around to, yeah, I can totally see why graphs are useful. But then we have the problem that by default, they're not type safe because if you have a like add edge method where you give the names of two different edges, there's no type checking, right? Even if you go and do some, I'm not, not all the graph libraries are AI specific. So there's a, there's a graph library called, but it allows, it does like a basic runtime type checking. Ironically using Pydantic to try and make up for the fact that like fundamentally that graphs are not typed type safe. Well, I like Pydantic, but it did, that's not a real solution to have to go and run the code to see if it's safe. There's a reason that starting type checking is so powerful. And so we kind of, from a lot of iteration eventually came up with a system of using normally data classes to define nodes where you return the next node you want to call and where we're able to go and introspect the return type of a node to basically build the graph. And so the graph is. Yeah. Inherently type safe. And once we got that right, I, I wasn't, I'm incredibly excited about graphs. I think there's like masses of use cases for them, both in gen AI and other development, but also software's all going to have interact with gen AI, right? It's going to be like web. There's no longer be like a web department in a company is that there's just like all the developers are building for web building with databases. The same is going to be true for gen AI.Alessio [00:12:33]: Yeah. I see on your docs, you call an agent, a container that contains a system prompt function. Tools, structure, result, dependency type model, and then model settings. Are the graphs in your mind, different agents? Are they different prompts for the same agent? What are like the structures in your mind?Samuel [00:12:52]: So we were compelled enough by graphs once we got them right, that we actually merged the PR this morning. That means our agent implementation without changing its API at all is now actually a graph under the hood as it is built using our graph library. So graphs are basically a lower level tool that allow you to build these complex workflows. Our agents are technically one of the many graphs you could go and build. And we just happened to build that one for you because it's a very common, commonplace one. But obviously there are cases where you need more complex workflows where the current agent assumptions don't work. And that's where you can then go and use graphs to build more complex things.Swyx [00:13:29]: You said you were cynical about graphs. What changed your mind specifically?Samuel [00:13:33]: I guess people kept giving me examples of things that they wanted to use graphs for. And my like, yeah, but you could do that in standard flow control in Python became a like less and less compelling argument to me because I've maintained those systems that end up with like spaghetti code. And I could see the appeal of this like structured way of defining the workflow of my code. And it's really neat that like just from your code, just from your type hints, you can get out a mermaid diagram that defines exactly what can go and happen.Swyx [00:14:00]: Right. Yeah. You do have very neat implementation of sort of inferring the graph from type hints, I guess. Yeah. Is what I would call it. Yeah. I think the question always is I have gone back and forth. I used to work at Temporal where we would actually spend a lot of time complaining about graph based workflow solutions like AWS step functions. And we would actually say that we were better because you could use normal control flow that you already knew and worked with. Yours, I guess, is like a little bit of a nice compromise. Like it looks like normal Pythonic code. But you just have to keep in mind what the type hints actually mean. And that's what we do with the quote unquote magic that the graph construction does.Samuel [00:14:42]: Yeah, exactly. And if you look at the internal logic of actually running a graph, it's incredibly simple. It's basically call a node, get a node back, call that node, get a node back, call that node. If you get an end, you're done. We will add in soon support for, well, basically storage so that you can store the state between each node that's run. And then the idea is you can then distribute the graph and run it across computers. And also, I mean, the other weird, the other bit that's really valuable is across time. Because it's all very well if you look at like lots of the graph examples that like Claude will give you. If it gives you an example, it gives you this lovely enormous mermaid chart of like the workflow, for example, managing returns if you're an e-commerce company. But what you realize is some of those lines are literally one function calls another function. And some of those lines are wait six days for the customer to print their like piece of paper and put it in the post. And if you're writing like your demo. Project or your like proof of concept, that's fine because you can just say, and now we call this function. But when you're building when you're in real in real life, that doesn't work. And now how do we manage that concept to basically be able to start somewhere else in the in our code? Well, this graph implementation makes it incredibly easy because you just pass the node that is the start point for carrying on the graph and it continues to run. So it's things like that where I was like, yeah, I can just imagine how things I've done in the past would be fundamentally easier to understand if we had done them with graphs.Swyx [00:16:07]: You say imagine, but like right now, this pedantic AI actually resume, you know, six days later, like you said, or is this just like a theoretical thing we can go someday?Samuel [00:16:16]: I think it's basically Q&A. So there's an AI that's asking the user a question and effectively you then call the CLI again to continue the conversation. And it basically instantiates the node and calls the graph with that node again. Now, we don't have the logic yet for effectively storing state in the database between individual nodes that we're going to add soon. But like the rest of it is basically there.Swyx [00:16:37]: It does make me think that not only are you competing with Langchain now and obviously Instructor, and now you're going into sort of the more like orchestrated things like Airflow, Prefect, Daxter, those guys.Samuel [00:16:52]: Yeah, I mean, we're good friends with the Prefect guys and Temporal have the same investors as us. And I'm sure that my investor Bogomol would not be too happy if I was like, oh, yeah, by the way, as well as trying to take on Datadog. We're also going off and trying to take on Temporal and everyone else doing that. Obviously, we're not doing all of the infrastructure of deploying that right yet, at least. We're, you know, we're just building a Python library. And like what's crazy about our graph implementation is, sure, there's a bit of magic in like introspecting the return type, you know, extracting things from unions, stuff like that. But like the actual calls, as I say, is literally call a function and get back a thing and call that. It's like incredibly simple and therefore easy to maintain. The question is, how useful is it? Well, I don't know yet. I think we have to go and find out. We have a whole. We've had a slew of people joining our Slack over the last few days and saying, tell me how good Pydantic AI is. How good is Pydantic AI versus Langchain? And I refuse to answer. That's your job to go and find that out. Not mine. We built a thing. I'm compelled by it, but I'm obviously biased. The ecosystem will work out what the useful tools are.Swyx [00:17:52]: Bogomol was my board member when I was at Temporal. And I think I think just generally also having been a workflow engine investor and participant in this space, it's a big space. Like everyone needs different functions. I think the one thing that I would say like yours, you know, as a library, you don't have that much control of it over the infrastructure. I do like the idea that each new agents or whatever or unit of work, whatever you call that should spin up in this sort of isolated boundaries. Whereas yours, I think around everything runs in the same process. But you ideally want to sort of spin out its own little container of things.Samuel [00:18:30]: I agree with you a hundred percent. And we will. It would work now. Right. As in theory, you're just like as long as you can serialize the calls to the next node, you just have to all of the different containers basically have to have the same the same code. I mean, I'm super excited about Cloudflare workers running Python and being able to install dependencies. And if Cloudflare could only give me my invitation to the private beta of that, we would be exploring that right now because I'm super excited about that as a like compute level for some of this stuff where exactly what you're saying, basically. You can run everything as an individual. Like worker function and distribute it. And it's resilient to failure, et cetera, et cetera.Swyx [00:19:08]: And it spins up like a thousand instances simultaneously. You know, you want it to be sort of truly serverless at once. Actually, I know we have some Cloudflare friends who are listening, so hopefully they'll get in front of the line. Especially.Samuel [00:19:19]: I was in Cloudflare's office last week shouting at them about other things that frustrate me. I have a love-hate relationship with Cloudflare. Their tech is awesome. But because I use it the whole time, I then get frustrated. So, yeah, I'm sure I will. I will. I will get there soon.Swyx [00:19:32]: There's a side tangent on Cloudflare. Is Python supported at full? I actually wasn't fully aware of what the status of that thing is.Samuel [00:19:39]: Yeah. So Pyodide, which is Python running inside the browser in scripting, is supported now by Cloudflare. They basically, they're having some struggles working out how to manage, ironically, dependencies that have binaries, in particular, Pydantic. Because these workers where you can have thousands of them on a given metal machine, you don't want to have a difference. You basically want to be able to have a share. Shared memory for all the different Pydantic installations, effectively. That's the thing they work out. They're working out. But Hood, who's my friend, who is the primary maintainer of Pyodide, works for Cloudflare. And that's basically what he's doing, is working out how to get Python running on Cloudflare's network.Swyx [00:20:19]: I mean, the nice thing is that your binary is really written in Rust, right? Yeah. Which also compiles the WebAssembly. Yeah. So maybe there's a way that you'd build... You have just a different build of Pydantic and that ships with whatever your distro for Cloudflare workers is.Samuel [00:20:36]: Yes, that's exactly what... So Pyodide has builds for Pydantic Core and for things like NumPy and basically all of the popular binary libraries. Yeah. It's just basic. And you're doing exactly that, right? You're using Rust to compile the WebAssembly and then you're calling that shared library from Python. And it's unbelievably complicated, but it works. Okay.Swyx [00:20:57]: Staying on graphs a little bit more, and then I wanted to go to some of the other features that you have in Pydantic AI. I see in your docs, there are sort of four levels of agents. There's single agents, there's agent delegation, programmatic agent handoff. That seems to be what OpenAI swarms would be like. And then the last one, graph-based control flow. Would you say that those are sort of the mental hierarchy of how these things go?Samuel [00:21:21]: Yeah, roughly. Okay.Swyx [00:21:22]: You had some expression around OpenAI swarms. Well.Samuel [00:21:25]: And indeed, OpenAI have got in touch with me and basically, maybe I'm not supposed to say this, but basically said that Pydantic AI looks like what swarms would become if it was production ready. So, yeah. I mean, like, yeah, which makes sense. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, in fact, it was specifically saying, how can we give people the same feeling that they were getting from swarms that led us to go and implement graphs? Because my, like, just call the next agent with Python code was not a satisfactory answer to people. So it was like, okay, we've got to go and have a better answer for that. It's not like, let us to get to graphs. Yeah.Swyx [00:21:56]: I mean, it's a minimal viable graph in some sense. What are the shapes of graphs that people should know? So the way that I would phrase this is I think Anthropic did a very good public service and also kind of surprisingly influential blog post, I would say, when they wrote Building Effective Agents. We actually have the authors coming to speak at my conference in New York, which I think you're giving a workshop at. Yeah.Samuel [00:22:24]: I'm trying to work it out. But yes, I think so.Swyx [00:22:26]: Tell me if you're not. yeah, I mean, like, that was the first, I think, authoritative view of, like, what kinds of graphs exist in agents and let's give each of them a name so that everyone is on the same page. So I'm just kind of curious if you have community names or top five patterns of graphs.Samuel [00:22:44]: I don't have top five patterns of graphs. I would love to see what people are building with them. But like, it's been it's only been a couple of weeks. And of course, there's a point is that. Because they're relatively unopinionated about what you can go and do with them. They don't suit them. Like, you can go and do lots of lots of things with them, but they don't have the structure to go and have like specific names as much as perhaps like some other systems do. I think what our agents are, which have a name and I can't remember what it is, but this basically system of like, decide what tool to call, go back to the center, decide what tool to call, go back to the center and then exit. One form of graph, which, as I say, like our agents are effectively one implementation of a graph, which is why under the hood they are now using graphs. And it'll be interesting to see over the next few years whether we end up with these like predefined graph names or graph structures or whether it's just like, yep, I built a graph or whether graphs just turn out not to match people's mental image of what they want and die away. We'll see.Swyx [00:23:38]: I think there is always appeal. Every developer eventually gets graph religion and goes, oh, yeah, everything's a graph. And then they probably over rotate and go go too far into graphs. And then they have to learn a whole bunch of DSLs. And then they're like, actually, I didn't need that. I need this. And they scale back a little bit.Samuel [00:23:55]: I'm at the beginning of that process. I'm currently a graph maximalist, although I haven't actually put any into production yet. But yeah.Swyx [00:24:02]: This has a lot of philosophical connections with other work coming out of UC Berkeley on compounding AI systems. I don't know if you know of or care. This is the Gartner world of things where they need some kind of industry terminology to sell it to enterprises. I don't know if you know about any of that.Samuel [00:24:24]: I haven't. I probably should. I should probably do it because I should probably get better at selling to enterprises. But no, no, I don't. Not right now.Swyx [00:24:29]: This is really the argument is that instead of putting everything in one model, you have more control and more maybe observability to if you break everything out into composing little models and changing them together. And obviously, then you need an orchestration framework to do that. Yeah.Samuel [00:24:47]: And it makes complete sense. And one of the things we've seen with agents is they work well when they work well. But when they. Even if you have the observability through log five that you can see what was going on, if you don't have a nice hook point to say, hang on, this is all gone wrong. You have a relatively blunt instrument of basically erroring when you exceed some kind of limit. But like what you need to be able to do is effectively iterate through these runs so that you can have your own control flow where you're like, OK, we've gone too far. And that's where one of the neat things about our graph implementation is you can basically call next in a loop rather than just running the full graph. And therefore, you have this opportunity to to break out of it. But yeah, basically, it's the same point, which is like if you have two bigger unit of work to some extent, whether or not it involves gen AI. But obviously, it's particularly problematic in gen AI. You only find out afterwards when you've spent quite a lot of time and or money when it's gone off and done done the wrong thing.Swyx [00:25:39]: Oh, drop on this. We're not going to resolve this here, but I'll drop this and then we can move on to the next thing. This is the common way that we we developers talk about this. And then the machine learning researchers look at us. And laugh and say, that's cute. And then they just train a bigger model and they wipe us out in the next training run. So I think there's a certain amount of we are fighting the bitter lesson here. We're fighting AGI. And, you know, when AGI arrives, this will all go away. Obviously, on Latent Space, we don't really discuss that because I think AGI is kind of this hand wavy concept that isn't super relevant. But I think we have to respect that. For example, you could do a chain of thoughts with graphs and you could manually orchestrate a nice little graph that does like. Reflect, think about if you need more, more inference time, compute, you know, that's the hot term now. And then think again and, you know, scale that up. Or you could train Strawberry and DeepSeq R1. Right.Samuel [00:26:32]: I saw someone saying recently, oh, they were really optimistic about agents because models are getting faster exponentially. And I like took a certain amount of self-control not to describe that it wasn't exponential. But my main point was. If models are getting faster as quickly as you say they are, then we don't need agents and we don't really need any of these abstraction layers. We can just give our model and, you know, access to the Internet, cross our fingers and hope for the best. Agents, agent frameworks, graphs, all of this stuff is basically making up for the fact that right now the models are not that clever. In the same way that if you're running a customer service business and you have loads of people sitting answering telephones, the less well trained they are, the less that you trust them, the more that you need to give them a script to go through. Whereas, you know, so if you're running a bank and you have lots of customer service people who you don't trust that much, then you tell them exactly what to say. If you're doing high net worth banking, you just employ people who you think are going to be charming to other rich people and set them off to go and have coffee with people. Right. And the same is true of models. The more intelligent they are, the less we need to tell them, like structure what they go and do and constrain the routes in which they take.Swyx [00:27:42]: Yeah. Yeah. Agree with that. So I'm happy to move on. So the other parts of Pydantic AI that are worth commenting on, and this is like my last rant, I promise. So obviously, every framework needs to do its sort of model adapter layer, which is, oh, you can easily swap from OpenAI to Cloud to Grok. You also have, which I didn't know about, Google GLA, which I didn't really know about until I saw this in your docs, which is generative language API. I assume that's AI Studio? Yes.Samuel [00:28:13]: Google don't have good names for it. So Vertex is very clear. That seems to be the API that like some of the things use, although it returns 503 about 20% of the time. So... Vertex? No. Vertex, fine. But the... Oh, oh. GLA. Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:28:28]: I agree with that.Samuel [00:28:29]: So we have, again, another example of like, well, I think we go the extra mile in terms of engineering is we run on every commit, at least commit to main, we run tests against the live models. Not lots of tests, but like a handful of them. Oh, okay. And we had a point last week where, yeah, GLA is a little bit better. GLA1 was failing every single run. One of their tests would fail. And we, I think we might even have commented out that one at the moment. So like all of the models fail more often than you might expect, but like that one seems to be particularly likely to fail. But Vertex is the same API, but much more reliable.Swyx [00:29:01]: My rant here is that, you know, versions of this appear in Langchain and every single framework has to have its own little thing, a version of that. I would put to you, and then, you know, this is, this can be agree to disagree. This is not needed in Pydantic AI. I would much rather you adopt a layer like Lite LLM or what's the other one in JavaScript port key. And that's their job. They focus on that one thing and they, they normalize APIs for you. All new models are automatically added and you don't have to duplicate this inside of your framework. So for example, if I wanted to use deep seek, I'm out of luck because Pydantic AI doesn't have deep seek yet.Samuel [00:29:38]: Yeah, it does.Swyx [00:29:39]: Oh, it does. Okay. I'm sorry. But you know what I mean? Should this live in your code or should it live in a layer that's kind of your API gateway that's a defined piece of infrastructure that people have?Samuel [00:29:49]: And I think if a company who are well known, who are respected by everyone had come along and done this at the right time, maybe we should have done it a year and a half ago and said, we're going to be the universal AI layer. That would have been a credible thing to do. I've heard varying reports of Lite LLM is the truth. And it didn't seem to have exactly the type safety that we needed. Also, as I understand it, and again, I haven't looked into it in great detail. Part of their business model is proxying the request through their, through their own system to do the generalization. That would be an enormous put off to an awful lot of people. Honestly, the truth is I don't think it is that much work unifying the model. I get where you're coming from. I kind of see your point. I think the truth is that everyone is centralizing around open AIs. Open AI's API is the one to do. So DeepSeq support that. Grok with OK support that. Ollama also does it. I mean, if there is that library right now, it's more or less the open AI SDK. And it's very high quality. It's well type checked. It uses Pydantic. So I'm biased. But I mean, I think it's pretty well respected anyway.Swyx [00:30:57]: There's different ways to do this. Because also, it's not just about normalizing the APIs. You have to do secret management and all that stuff.Samuel [00:31:05]: Yeah. And there's also. There's Vertex and Bedrock, which to one extent or another, effectively, they host multiple models, but they don't unify the API. But they do unify the auth, as I understand it. Although we're halfway through doing Bedrock. So I don't know about it that well. But they're kind of weird hybrids because they support multiple models. But like I say, the auth is centralized.Swyx [00:31:28]: Yeah, I'm surprised they don't unify the API. That seems like something that I would do. You know, we can discuss all this all day. There's a lot of APIs. I agree.Samuel [00:31:36]: It would be nice if there was a universal one that we didn't have to go and build.Alessio [00:31:39]: And I guess the other side of, you know, routing model and picking models like evals. How do you actually figure out which one you should be using? I know you have one. First of all, you have very good support for mocking in unit tests, which is something that a lot of other frameworks don't do. So, you know, my favorite Ruby library is VCR because it just, you know, it just lets me store the HTTP requests and replay them. That part I'll kind of skip. I think you are busy like this test model. We're like just through Python. You try and figure out what the model might respond without actually calling the model. And then you have the function model where people can kind of customize outputs. Any other fun stories maybe from there? Or is it just what you see is what you get, so to speak?Samuel [00:32:18]: On those two, I think what you see is what you get. On the evals, I think watch this space. I think it's something that like, again, I was somewhat cynical about for some time. Still have my cynicism about some of the well, it's unfortunate that so many different things are called evals. It would be nice if we could agree. What they are and what they're not. But look, I think it's a really important space. I think it's something that we're going to be working on soon, both in Pydantic AI and in LogFire to try and support better because it's like it's an unsolved problem.Alessio [00:32:45]: Yeah, you do say in your doc that anyone who claims to know for sure exactly how your eval should be defined can safely be ignored.Samuel [00:32:52]: We'll delete that sentence when we tell people how to do their evals.Alessio [00:32:56]: Exactly. I was like, we need we need a snapshot of this today. And so let's talk about eval. So there's kind of like the vibe. Yeah. So you have evals, which is what you do when you're building. Right. Because you cannot really like test it that many times to get statistical significance. And then there's the production eval. So you also have LogFire, which is kind of like your observability product, which I tried before. It's very nice. What are some of the learnings you've had from building an observability tool for LEMPs? And yeah, as people think about evals, even like what are the right things to measure? What are like the right number of samples that you need to actually start making decisions?Samuel [00:33:33]: I'm not the best person to answer that is the truth. So I'm not going to come in here and tell you that I think I know the answer on the exact number. I mean, we can do some back of the envelope statistics calculations to work out that like having 30 probably gets you most of the statistical value of having 200 for, you know, by definition, 15% of the work. But the exact like how many examples do you need? For example, that's a much harder question to answer because it's, you know, it's deep within the how models operate in terms of LogFire. One of the reasons we built LogFire the way we have and we allow you to write SQL directly against your data and we're trying to build the like powerful fundamentals of observability is precisely because we know we don't know the answers. And so allowing people to go and innovate on how they're going to consume that stuff and how they're going to process it is we think that's valuable. Because even if we come along and offer you an evals framework on top of LogFire, it won't be right in all regards. And we want people to be able to go and innovate and being able to write their own SQL connected to the API. And effectively query the data like it's a database with SQL allows people to innovate on that stuff. And that's what allows us to do it as well. I mean, we do a bunch of like testing what's possible by basically writing SQL directly against LogFire as any user could. I think the other the other really interesting bit that's going on in observability is OpenTelemetry is centralizing around semantic attributes for GenAI. So it's a relatively new project. A lot of it's still being added at the moment. But basically the idea that like. They unify how both SDKs and or agent frameworks send observability data to to any OpenTelemetry endpoint. And so, again, we can go and having that unification allows us to go and like basically compare different libraries, compare different models much better. That stuff's in a very like early stage of development. One of the things we're going to be working on pretty soon is basically, I suspect, GenAI will be the first agent framework that implements those semantic attributes properly. Because, again, we control and we can say this is important for observability, whereas most of the other agent frameworks are not maintained by people who are trying to do observability. With the exception of Langchain, where they have the observability platform, but they chose not to go down the OpenTelemetry route. So they're like plowing their own furrow. And, you know, they're a lot they're even further away from standardization.Alessio [00:35:51]: Can you maybe just give a quick overview of how OTEL ties into the AI workflows? There's kind of like the question of is, you know, a trace. And a span like a LLM call. Is it the agent? It's kind of like the broader thing you're tracking. How should people think about it?Samuel [00:36:06]: Yeah, so they have a PR that I think may have now been merged from someone at IBM talking about remote agents and trying to support this concept of remote agents within GenAI. I'm not particularly compelled by that because I don't think that like that's actually by any means the common use case. But like, I suppose it's fine for it to be there. The majority of the stuff in OTEL is basically defining how you would instrument. A given call to an LLM. So basically the actual LLM call, what data you would send to your telemetry provider, how you would structure that. Apart from this slightly odd stuff on remote agents, most of the like agent level consideration is not yet implemented in is not yet decided effectively. And so there's a bit of ambiguity. Obviously, what's good about OTEL is you can in the end send whatever attributes you like. But yeah, there's quite a lot of churn in that space and exactly how we store the data. I think that one of the most interesting things, though, is that if you think about observability. Traditionally, it was sure everyone would say our observability data is very important. We must keep it safe. But actually, companies work very hard to basically not have anything that sensitive in their observability data. So if you're a doctor in a hospital and you search for a drug for an STI, the sequel might be sent to the observability provider. But none of the parameters would. It wouldn't have the patient number or their name or the drug. With GenAI, that distinction doesn't exist because it's all just messed up in the text. If you have that same patient asking an LLM how to. What drug they should take or how to stop smoking. You can't extract the PII and not send it to the observability platform. So the sensitivity of the data that's going to end up in observability platforms is going to be like basically different order of magnitude to what's in what you would normally send to Datadog. Of course, you can make a mistake and send someone's password or their card number to Datadog. But that would be seen as a as a like mistake. Whereas in GenAI, a lot of data is going to be sent. And I think that's why companies like Langsmith and are trying hard to offer observability. On prem, because there's a bunch of companies who are happy for Datadog to be cloud hosted, but want self-hosted self-hosting for this observability stuff with GenAI.Alessio [00:38:09]: And are you doing any of that today? Because I know in each of the spans you have like the number of tokens, you have the context, you're just storing everything. And then you're going to offer kind of like a self-hosting for the platform, basically. Yeah. Yeah.Samuel [00:38:23]: So we have scrubbing roughly equivalent to what the other observability platforms have. So if we, you know, if we see password as the key, we won't send the value. But like, like I said, that doesn't really work in GenAI. So we're accepting we're going to have to store a lot of data and then we'll offer self-hosting for those people who can afford it and who need it.Alessio [00:38:42]: And then this is, I think, the first time that most of the workloads performance is depending on a third party. You know, like if you're looking at Datadog data, usually it's your app that is driving the latency and like the memory usage and all of that. Here you're going to have spans that maybe take a long time to perform because the GLA API is not working or because OpenAI is kind of like overwhelmed. Do you do anything there since like the provider is almost like the same across customers? You know, like, are you trying to surface these things for people and say, hey, this was like a very slow span, but actually all customers using OpenAI right now are seeing the same thing. So maybe don't worry about it or.Samuel [00:39:20]: Not yet. We do a few things that people don't generally do in OTA. So we send. We send information at the beginning. At the beginning of a trace as well as sorry, at the beginning of a span, as well as when it finishes. By default, OTA only sends you data when the span finishes. So if you think about a request which might take like 20 seconds, even if some of the intermediate spans finished earlier, you can't basically place them on the page until you get the top level span. And so if you're using standard OTA, you can't show anything until those requests are finished. When those requests are taking a few hundred milliseconds, it doesn't really matter. But when you're doing Gen AI calls or when you're like running a batch job that might take 30 minutes. That like latency of not being able to see the span is like crippling to understanding your application. And so we've we do a bunch of slightly complex stuff to basically send data about a span as it starts, which is closely related. Yeah.Alessio [00:40:09]: Any thoughts on all the other people trying to build on top of OpenTelemetry in different languages, too? There's like the OpenLEmetry project, which doesn't really roll off the tongue. But how do you see the future of these kind of tools? Is everybody going to have to build? Why does everybody want to build? They want to build their own open source observability thing to then sell?Samuel [00:40:29]: I mean, we are not going off and trying to instrument the likes of the OpenAI SDK with the new semantic attributes, because at some point that's going to happen and it's going to live inside OTEL and we might help with it. But we're a tiny team. We don't have time to go and do all of that work. So OpenLEmetry, like interesting project. But I suspect eventually most of those semantic like that instrumentation of the big of the SDKs will live, like I say, inside the main OpenTelemetry report. I suppose. What happens to the agent frameworks? What data you basically need at the framework level to get the context is kind of unclear. I don't think we know the answer yet. But I mean, I was on the, I guess this is kind of semi-public, because I was on the call with the OpenTelemetry call last week talking about GenAI. And there was someone from Arize talking about the challenges they have trying to get OpenTelemetry data out of Langchain, where it's not like natively implemented. And obviously they're having quite a tough time. And I was realizing, hadn't really realized this before, but how lucky we are to primarily be talking about our own agent framework, where we have the control rather than trying to go and instrument other people's.Swyx [00:41:36]: Sorry, I actually didn't know about this semantic conventions thing. It looks like, yeah, it's merged into main OTel. What should people know about this? I had never heard of it before.Samuel [00:41:45]: Yeah, I think it looks like a great start. I think there's some unknowns around how you send the messages that go back and forth, which is kind of the most important part. It's the most important thing of all. And that is moved out of attributes and into OTel events. OTel events in turn are moving from being on a span to being their own top-level API where you send data. So there's a bunch of churn still going on. I'm impressed by how fast the OTel community is moving on this project. I guess they, like everyone else, get that this is important, and it's something that people are crying out to get instrumentation off. So I'm kind of pleasantly surprised at how fast they're moving, but it makes sense.Swyx [00:42:25]: I'm just kind of browsing through the specification. I can already see that this basically bakes in whatever the previous paradigm was. So now they have genai.usage.prompt tokens and genai.usage.completion tokens. And obviously now we have reasoning tokens as well. And then only one form of sampling, which is top-p. You're basically baking in or sort of reifying things that you think are important today, but it's not a super foolproof way of doing this for the future. Yeah.Samuel [00:42:54]: I mean, that's what's neat about OTel is you can always go and send another attribute and that's fine. It's just there are a bunch that are agreed on. But I would say, you know, to come back to your previous point about whether or not we should be relying on one centralized abstraction layer, this stuff is moving so fast that if you start relying on someone else's standard, you risk basically falling behind because you're relying on someone else to keep things up to date.Swyx [00:43:14]: Or you fall behind because you've got other things going on.Samuel [00:43:17]: Yeah, yeah. That's fair. That's fair.Swyx [00:43:19]: Any other observations just about building LogFire, actually? Let's just talk about this. So you announced LogFire. I was kind of only familiar with LogFire because of your Series A announcement. I actually thought you were making a separate company. I remember some amount of confusion with you when that came out. So to be clear, it's Pydantic LogFire and the company is one company that has kind of two products, an open source thing and an observability thing, correct? Yeah. I was just kind of curious, like any learnings building LogFire? So classic question is, do you use ClickHouse? Is this like the standard persistence layer? Any learnings doing that?Samuel [00:43:54]: We don't use ClickHouse. We started building our database with ClickHouse, moved off ClickHouse onto Timescale, which is a Postgres extension to do analytical databases. Wow. And then moved off Timescale onto DataFusion. And we're basically now building, it's DataFusion, but it's kind of our own database. Bogomil is not entirely happy that we went through three databases before we chose one. I'll say that. But like, we've got to the right one in the end. I think we could have realized that Timescale wasn't right. I think ClickHouse. They both taught us a lot and we're in a great place now. But like, yeah, it's been a real journey on the database in particular.Swyx [00:44:28]: Okay. So, you know, as a database nerd, I have to like double click on this, right? So ClickHouse is supposed to be the ideal backend for anything like this. And then moving from ClickHouse to Timescale is another counterintuitive move that I didn't expect because, you know, Timescale is like an extension on top of Postgres. Not super meant for like high volume logging. But like, yeah, tell us those decisions.Samuel [00:44:50]: So at the time, ClickHouse did not have good support for JSON. I was speaking to someone yesterday and said ClickHouse doesn't have good support for JSON and got roundly stepped on because apparently it does now. So they've obviously gone and built their proper JSON support. But like back when we were trying to use it, I guess a year ago or a bit more than a year ago, everything happened to be a map and maps are a pain to try and do like looking up JSON type data. And obviously all these attributes, everything you're talking about there in terms of the GenAI stuff. You can choose to make them top level columns if you want. But the simplest thing is just to put them all into a big JSON pile. And that was a problem with ClickHouse. Also, ClickHouse had some really ugly edge cases like by default, or at least until I complained about it a lot, ClickHouse thought that two nanoseconds was longer than one second because they compared intervals just by the number, not the unit. And I complained about that a lot. And then they caused it to raise an error and just say you have to have the same unit. Then I complained a bit more. And I think as I understand it now, they have some. They convert between units. But like stuff like that, when all you're looking at is when a lot of what you're doing is comparing the duration of spans was really painful. Also things like you can't subtract two date times to get an interval. You have to use the date sub function. But like the fundamental thing is because we want our end users to write SQL, the like quality of the SQL, how easy it is to write, matters way more to us than if you're building like a platform on top where your developers are going to write the SQL. And once it's written and it's working, you don't mind too much. So I think that's like one of the fundamental differences. The other problem that I have with the ClickHouse and Impact Timescale is that like the ultimate architecture, the like snowflake architecture of binary data in object store queried with some kind of cache from nearby. They both have it, but it's closed sourced and you only get it if you go and use their hosted versions. And so even if we had got through all the problems with Timescale or ClickHouse, we would end up like, you know, they would want to be taking their 80% margin. And then we would be wanting to take that would basically leave us less space for margin. Whereas data fusion. Properly open source, all of that same tooling is open source. And for us as a team of people with a lot of Rust expertise, data fusion, which is implemented in Rust, we can literally dive into it and go and change it. So, for example, I found that there were some slowdowns in data fusion's string comparison kernel for doing like string contains. And it's just Rust code. And I could go and rewrite the string comparison kernel to be faster. Or, for example, data fusion, when we started using it, didn't have JSON support. Obviously, as I've said, it's something we can do. It's something we needed. I was able to go and implement that in a weekend using our JSON parser that we built for Pydantic Core. So it's the fact that like data fusion is like for us the perfect mixture of a toolbox to build a database with, not a database. And we can go and implement stuff on top of it in a way that like if you were trying to do that in Postgres or in ClickHouse. I mean, ClickHouse would be easier because it's C++, relatively modern C++. But like as a team of people who are not C++ experts, that's much scarier than data fusion for us.Swyx [00:47:47]: Yeah, that's a beautiful rant.Alessio [00:47:49]: That's funny. Most people don't think they have agency on these projects. They're kind of like, oh, I should use this or I should use that. They're not really like, what should I pick so that I contribute the most back to it? You know, so but I think you obviously have an open source first mindset. So that makes a lot of sense.Samuel [00:48:05]: I think if we were probably better as a startup, a better startup and faster moving and just like headlong determined to get in front of customers as fast as possible, we should have just started with ClickHouse. I hope that long term we're in a better place for having worked with data fusion. We like we're quite engaged now with the data fusion community. Andrew Lam, who maintains data fusion, is an advisor to us. We're in a really good place now. But yeah, it's definitely slowed us down relative to just like building on ClickHouse and moving as fast as we can.Swyx [00:48:34]: OK, we're about to zoom out and do Pydantic run and all the other stuff. But, you know, my last question on LogFire is really, you know, at some point you run out sort of community goodwill just because like, oh, I use Pydantic. I love Pydantic. I'm going to use LogFire. OK, then you start entering the territory of the Datadogs, the Sentrys and the honeycombs. Yeah. So where are you going to really spike here? What differentiator here?Samuel [00:48:59]: I wasn't writing code in 2001, but I'm assuming that there were people talking about like web observability and then web observability stopped being a thing, not because the web stopped being a thing, but because all observability had to do web. If you were talking to people in 2010 or 2012, they would have talked about cloud observability. Now that's not a term because all observability is cloud first. The same is going to happen to gen AI. And so whether or not you're trying to compete with Datadog or with Arise and Langsmith, you've got to do first class. You've got to do general purpose observability with first class support for AI. And as far as I know, we're the only people really trying to do that. I mean, I think Datadog is starting in that direction. And to be honest, I think Datadog is a much like scarier company to compete with than the AI specific observability platforms. Because in my opinion, and I've also heard this from lots of customers, AI specific observability where you don't see everything else going on in your app is not actually that useful. Our hope is that we can build the first general purpose observability platform with first class support for AI. And that we have this open source heritage of putting developer experience first that other companies haven't done. For all I'm a fan of Datadog and what they've done. If you search Datadog logging Python. And you just try as a like a non-observability expert to get something up and running with Datadog and Python. It's not trivial, right? That's something Sentry have done amazingly well. But like there's enormous space in most of observability to do DX better.Alessio [00:50:27]: Since you mentioned Sentry, I'm curious how you thought about licensing and all of that. Obviously, your MIT license, you don't have any rolling license like Sentry has where you can only use an open source, like the one year old version of it. Was that a hard decision?Samuel [00:50:41]: So to be clear, LogFire is co-sourced. So Pydantic and Pydantic AI are MIT licensed and like properly open source. And then LogFire for now is completely closed source. And in fact, the struggles that Sentry have had with licensing and the like weird pushback the community gives when they take something that's closed source and make it source available just meant that we just avoided that whole subject matter. I think the other way to look at it is like in terms of either headcount or revenue or dollars in the bank. The amount of open source we do as a company is we've got to be open source. We're up there with the most prolific open source companies, like I say, per head. And so we didn't feel like we were morally obligated to make LogFire open source. We have Pydantic. Pydantic is a foundational library in Python. That and now Pydantic AI are our contribution to open source. And then LogFire is like openly for profit, right? As in we're not claiming otherwise. We're not sort of trying to walk a line if it's open source. But really, we want to make it hard to deploy. So you probably want to pay us. We're trying to be straight. That it's to pay for. We could change that at some point in the future, but it's not an immediate plan.Alessio [00:51:48]: All right. So the first one I saw this new I don't know if it's like a product you're building the Pydantic that run, which is a Python browser sandbox. What was the inspiration behind that? We talk a lot about code interpreter for lamps. I'm an investor in a company called E2B, which is a code sandbox as a service for remote execution. Yeah. What's the Pydantic that run story?Samuel [00:52:09]: So Pydantic that run is again completely open source. I have no interest in making it into a product. We just needed a sandbox to be able to demo LogFire in particular, but also Pydantic AI. So it doesn't have it yet, but I'm going to add basically a proxy to OpenAI and the other models so that you can run Pydantic AI in the browser. See how it works. Tweak the prompt, et cetera, et cetera. And we'll have some kind of limit per day of what you can spend on it or like what the spend is. The other thing we wanted to b

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I'm joined by Emil Eifrem, Co-Founder and CEO of Neo4j, an open-source graph database. Neo4j enables organizations to unlock the business value of connections, influences, and relationships in data.  In our conversation today, we talk about the following topics:  • The origin story of Neo4j and why they chose open source • Open source as a means of production vs. distribution • How open source fosters trust and transparency • The pros and cons of doing business in the US  • Why Neo4j updated their values and changed their stance on military contracts  • What a Leader's Guide is and how it keeps companies tied to their mission  • The challenges of implementing AI  • An explanation of RAG information retrieval and how it relates to LLMs  • And more!  — Brought to you by: Vanta – Automate compliance, manage risk, and prove trust—continuously. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Get $1,000 off⁠⁠⁠⁠. • Gusto – Gusto is an easy payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. Get 3 months free. Runway – The finance platform you don't hate. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Learn more⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. — Where to find Emil Eifrem: • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emileifrem/ • X: https://x.com/emileifrem — Where to find Eric: • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  • Podcast: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  — In This Episode We Cover: (00:00) Intro (01:42) How Eric and Emil got connected  (07:35) The origin story of Neo4j (13:38) Why Emil went with an open-source model (20:25) The benefits of being open source as a means of distribution  (25:07) Why Emil has no regrets about going open-source  (26:50) How open source builds trust (30:33) The difference in doing business in the US vs. Sweden  (35:34) How Neo4j got to product market fit and early struggles (38:30) Why Neo4j declined the GSA schedule and why it was a mistake  (46:22) Emil's thoughts on changing his position, reworking values, and recommitting  (51:40) Eric's advice to avoid mission drift: A leader's guide, and a two-way review (1:00:04) The challenge of implementing AI—and the possibility of massive opportunity  (1:09:20) How Neo4j successfully implemented AI  (1:11:55) An explanation of IR (information retrieval) and how it's relevant to AI  (1:22:44) What gives us trust in the AI system — You can find the transcript and references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

What is GraphRAG Python Package? At AWS re:Invent, I had the pleasure of chatting with Zach Blumenfeld, Neo4j, about the recently launched GraphRAG Python package. In this interview, we discussed: ✅ What GraphRAG is: A powerful tool designed to simplify and enhance retrieval-augmented generation workflows using graph-based data structures. ✅ Why it was created: To help data teams efficiently manage and leverage their unstructured data for advanced AI applications. ✅ Who benefits: From data scientists to AI developers, anyone looking to streamline their workflows and get the most out of their data will find value. ✅ What's next: Zach also teased some exciting updates that are in the pipeline! Check out the full conversation to learn more about GraphRAG and how it's reshaping the way we interact with data.

What's next for Neo4j in 2024 and beyond? I had an insightful discussion with Sudhir Hasbe, CPO of Neo4j, on The Ravit Show at AWS re: Invent, diving into their product roadmap and what's coming in 2025. Drawing from the NODES 2024 presentation, Sudhir shared exciting updates on how Neo4j continues to lead the graph database space. Key highlights from our conversation: -- Neo4j's vision for 2024 releases and its focus on “Every business is a graph,” exploring the 7-graph story -- Their product focus areas, including advancements in Neo4j in the cloud -- The role of Neo4j in enabling GraphRAG and GenAI, and its impact on the AI ecosystem -- A sneak peek into what's planned for 2025 and how Neo4j is shaping the future of graph technology It was an exciting glimpse into the future of Neo4j and its pivotal role in helping businesses unlock the power of graph data! #data #ai #awsreinvent #awsreinvent2024 #reinvent2024 #neo4j #theravitshow

BREAKING: Neo4j Expands AWS Collaboration With New Competencies in Finance, Automotive, GenAI, and ML. Learn more about the details — https://bit.ly/4ggb7PV I had a blast chatting with Matt Connon, VP, Neo4j about the announcement they made at AWS Re:Invent. #data #ai #awsreinvent #awsreinvent2024 #reinvent2024 #neo4j #theravitshow

I hosted Jason Koo, Developer Advocacy Manager, and Alison Cossette, Data Science Advocate, on The Ravit Show at AWS re: Invent to talk about Neo4j's incredible developer community! We discussed the important role of the community in Neo4j's journey and how it continues to shape the future of graph databases. Jason and Alison shared insights into the growth of the developer ecosystem, how to get involved, and the meaningful contributions the community brings to Neo4j's innovation. Key highlights from the discussion: -- The roles of developer advocates in fostering collaboration and learning -- The growth of Neo4j's developer community through meetups, workshops, and global engagement -- How to get started with graph databases and the resources available in the Neo4j Developer Center -- Real-world examples of how community projects drive innovation and help Neo4j grow -- Lessons Neo4j learns from the community, emphasizing the value of two-way collaboration This conversation highlighted how a strong community can fuel technology innovation and empower developers worldwide. #data #ai #awsreinvent #awsreinvent2024 #reinvent2024 #neo4j #theravitshow

Topics:Trends/Events over the yearGQL release https://neo4j.com/blog/cypher-gql-world/GraphRAG https://neo4j.com/blog/graphrag-manifesto/Memorable events/experiencesNODES 2024, obviously :) https://neo4j.com/nodes2024/agenda/GenAI Graph GatheringAI Eng World FairNeo4j product releases?New Aura consoleLLM KG Builder https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/llm-graph-builder/Neo Converse https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/neoconverse/Neo4j Python Rust extension https://github.com/neo4j/neo4j-python-driver-rust-extNeo4j GraphRAG python library https://github.com/neo4j/neo4j-graphrag-pythonTools of the Month:Jason:  BAML https://github.com/BoundaryML/bamlJennifer: Github actions (v3->v4), Spring AI https://spring.io/projects/spring-aiABK: Google Notebook LM https://notebooklm.google/Alison: ChatGPT Canvas https://openai.com/index/introducing-canvas/, Anthropic Model Context Protocol https://modelcontextprotocol.io/introductionArticles:Get Started With the Neo4j Aura CLI Beta ReleaseGet Started With the Neo4j Aura CLI Beta Release https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/get-started-with-aura-cli-beta/Cypher Gems in Neo4j 5 https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/cypher-gems-in-neo4j-5/LangChain-Neo4j Partner Package: Officially Supported GraphRAG https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/langchain-neo4j-partner-package-graphrag/ Videos:NODES 2024 playlist https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvU6t-fXNeQfkpnmgMm4w5h3Top 5 performing videos:KG Builder App: https://youtube.com/live/NbyxWAC2TLcImporting CSV Data: https://youtube.com/live/2iYTAgXM_ugMastering GraphRAG: https://youtube.com/live/cbPII1Pam_MEntity Resolution: https://youtube.com/live/GMTY78xqGXQPersonal Knowledge Vault: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7E97TSmGyI Eventshttps://neo4j.com/events/

Applications for the 2025 AI Engineer Summit are up, and you can save the date for AIE Singapore in April and AIE World's Fair 2025 in June.Happy new year, and thanks for 100 great episodes! Please let us know what you want to see/hear for the next 100!Full YouTube Episode with Slides/ChartsLike and subscribe and hit that bell to get notifs!Timestamps* 00:00 Welcome to the 100th Episode!* 00:19 Reflecting on the Journey* 00:47 AI Engineering: The Rise and Impact* 03:15 Latent Space Live and AI Conferences* 09:44 The Competitive AI Landscape* 21:45 Synthetic Data and Future Trends* 35:53 Creative Writing with AI* 36:12 Legal and Ethical Issues in AI* 38:18 The Data War: GPU Poor vs. GPU Rich* 39:12 The Rise of GPU Ultra Rich* 40:47 Emerging Trends in AI Models* 45:31 The Multi-Modality War* 01:05:31 The Future of AI Benchmarks* 01:13:17 Pionote and Frontier Models* 01:13:47 Niche Models and Base Models* 01:14:30 State Space Models and RWKB* 01:15:48 Inference Race and Price Wars* 01:22:16 Major AI Themes of the Year* 01:22:48 AI Rewind: January to March* 01:26:42 AI Rewind: April to June* 01:33:12 AI Rewind: July to September* 01:34:59 AI Rewind: October to December* 01:39:53 Year-End Reflections and PredictionsTranscript[00:00:00] Welcome to the 100th Episode![00:00:00] Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co host Swyx for the 100th time today.[00:00:12] swyx: Yay, um, and we're so glad that, yeah, you know, everyone has, uh, followed us in this journey. How do you feel about it? 100 episodes.[00:00:19] Alessio: Yeah, I know.[00:00:19] Reflecting on the Journey[00:00:19] Alessio: Almost two years that we've been doing this. We've had four different studios. Uh, we've had a lot of changes. You know, we used to do this lightning round. When we first started that we didn't like, and we tried to change the question. The answer[00:00:32] swyx: was cursor and perplexity.[00:00:34] Alessio: Yeah, I love mid journey. It's like, do you really not like anything else?[00:00:38] Alessio: Like what's, what's the unique thing? And I think, yeah, we, we've also had a lot more research driven content. You know, we had like 3DAO, we had, you know. Jeremy Howard, we had more folks like that.[00:00:47] AI Engineering: The Rise and Impact[00:00:47] Alessio: I think we want to do more of that too in the new year, like having, uh, some of the Gemini folks, both on the research and the applied side.[00:00:54] Alessio: Yeah, but it's been a ton of fun. I think we both started, I wouldn't say as a joke, we were kind of like, Oh, we [00:01:00] should do a podcast. And I think we kind of caught the right wave, obviously. And I think your rise of the AI engineer posts just kind of get people. Sombra to congregate, and then the AI engineer summit.[00:01:11] Alessio: And that's why when I look at our growth chart, it's kind of like a proxy for like the AI engineering industry as a whole, which is almost like, like, even if we don't do that much, we keep growing just because there's so many more AI engineers. So did you expect that growth or did you expect that would take longer for like the AI engineer thing to kind of like become, you know, everybody talks about it today.[00:01:32] swyx: So, the sign of that, that we have won is that Gartner puts it at the top of the hype curve right now. So Gartner has called the peak in AI engineering. I did not expect, um, to what level. I knew that I was correct when I called it because I did like two months of work going into that. But I didn't know, You know, how quickly it could happen, and obviously there's a chance that I could be wrong.[00:01:52] swyx: But I think, like, most people have come around to that concept. Hacker News hates it, which is a good sign. But there's enough people that have defined it, you know, GitHub, when [00:02:00] they launched GitHub Models, which is the Hugging Face clone, they put AI engineers in the banner, like, above the fold, like, in big So I think it's like kind of arrived as a meaningful and useful definition.[00:02:12] swyx: I think people are trying to figure out where the boundaries are. I think that was a lot of the quote unquote drama that happens behind the scenes at the World's Fair in June. Because I think there's a lot of doubt or questions about where ML engineering stops and AI engineering starts. That's a useful debate to be had.[00:02:29] swyx: In some sense, I actually anticipated that as well. So I intentionally did not. Put a firm definition there because most of the successful definitions are necessarily underspecified and it's actually useful to have different perspectives and you don't have to specify everything from the outset.[00:02:45] Alessio: Yeah, I was at um, AWS reInvent and the line to get into like the AI engineering talk, so to speak, which is, you know, applied AI and whatnot was like, there are like hundreds of people just in line to go in.[00:02:56] Alessio: I think that's kind of what enabled me. People, right? Which is what [00:03:00] you kind of talked about. It's like, Hey, look, you don't actually need a PhD, just, yeah, just use the model. And then maybe we'll talk about some of the blind spots that you get as an engineer with the earlier posts that we also had on on the sub stack.[00:03:11] Alessio: But yeah, it's been a heck of a heck of a two years.[00:03:14] swyx: Yeah.[00:03:15] Latent Space Live and AI Conferences[00:03:15] swyx: You know, I was, I was trying to view the conference as like, so NeurIPS is I think like 16, 17, 000 people. And the Latent Space Live event that we held there was 950 signups. I think. The AI world, the ML world is still very much research heavy. And that's as it should be because ML is very much in a research phase.[00:03:34] swyx: But as we move this entire field into production, I think that ratio inverts into becoming more engineering heavy. So at least I think engineering should be on the same level, even if it's never as prestigious, like it'll always be low status because at the end of the day, you're manipulating APIs or whatever.[00:03:51] swyx: But Yeah, wrapping GPTs, but there's going to be an increasing stack and an art to doing these, these things well. And I, you know, I [00:04:00] think that's what we're focusing on for the podcast, the conference and basically everything I do seems to make sense. And I think we'll, we'll talk about the trends here that apply.[00:04:09] swyx: It's, it's just very strange. So, like, there's a mix of, like, keeping on top of research while not being a researcher and then putting that research into production. So, like, people always ask me, like, why are you covering Neuralibs? Like, this is a ML research conference and I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, we're not going to, to like, understand everything Or reproduce every single paper, but the stuff that is being found here is going to make it through into production at some point, you hope.[00:04:32] swyx: And then actually like when I talk to the researchers, they actually get very excited because they're like, oh, you guys are actually caring about how this goes into production and that's what they really really want. The measure of success is previously just peer review, right? Getting 7s and 8s on their um, Academic review conferences and stuff like citations is one metric, but money is a better metric.[00:04:51] Alessio: Money is a better metric. Yeah, and there were about 2200 people on the live stream or something like that. Yeah, yeah. Hundred on the live stream. So [00:05:00] I try my best to moderate, but it was a lot spicier in person with Jonathan and, and Dylan. Yeah, that it was in the chat on YouTube.[00:05:06] swyx: I would say that I actually also created.[00:05:09] swyx: Layen Space Live in order to address flaws that are perceived in academic conferences. This is not NeurIPS specific, it's ICML, NeurIPS. Basically, it's very sort of oriented towards the PhD student, uh, market, job market, right? Like literally all, basically everyone's there to advertise their research and skills and get jobs.[00:05:28] swyx: And then obviously all the, the companies go there to hire them. And I think that's great for the individual researchers, but for people going there to get info is not great because you have to read between the lines, bring a ton of context in order to understand every single paper. So what is missing is effectively what I ended up doing, which is domain by domain, go through and recap the best of the year.[00:05:48] swyx: Survey the field. And there are, like NeurIPS had a, uh, I think ICML had a like a position paper track, NeurIPS added a benchmarks, uh, datasets track. These are ways in which to address that [00:06:00] issue. Uh, there's always workshops as well. Every, every conference has, you know, a last day of workshops and stuff that provide more of an overview.[00:06:06] swyx: But they're not specifically prompted to do so. And I think really, uh, Organizing a conference is just about getting good speakers and giving them the correct prompts. And then they will just go and do that thing and they do a very good job of it. So I think Sarah did a fantastic job with the startups prompt.[00:06:21] swyx: I can't list everybody, but we did best of 2024 in startups, vision, open models. Post transformers, synthetic data, small models, and agents. And then the last one was the, uh, and then we also did a quick one on reasoning with Nathan Lambert. And then the last one, obviously, was the debate that people were very hyped about.[00:06:39] swyx: It was very awkward. And I'm really, really thankful for John Franco, basically, who stepped up to challenge Dylan. Because Dylan was like, yeah, I'll do it. But He was pro scaling. And I think everyone who is like in AI is pro scaling, right? So you need somebody who's ready to publicly say, no, we've hit a wall.[00:06:57] swyx: So that means you're saying Sam Altman's wrong. [00:07:00] You're saying, um, you know, everyone else is wrong. It helps that this was the day before Ilya went on, went up on stage and then said pre training has hit a wall. And data has hit a wall. So actually Jonathan ended up winning, and then Ilya supported that statement, and then Noam Brown on the last day further supported that statement as well.[00:07:17] swyx: So it's kind of interesting that I think the consensus kind of going in was that we're not done scaling, like you should believe in a better lesson. And then, four straight days in a row, you had Sepp Hochreiter, who is the creator of the LSTM, along with everyone's favorite OG in AI, which is Juergen Schmidhuber.[00:07:34] swyx: He said that, um, we're pre trading inside a wall, or like, we've run into a different kind of wall. And then we have, you know John Frankel, Ilya, and then Noam Brown are all saying variations of the same thing, that we have hit some kind of wall in the status quo of what pre trained, scaling large pre trained models has looked like, and we need a new thing.[00:07:54] swyx: And obviously the new thing for people is some make, either people are calling it inference time compute or test time [00:08:00] compute. I think the collective terminology has been inference time, and I think that makes sense because test time, calling it test, meaning, has a very pre trained bias, meaning that the only reason for running inference at all is to test your model.[00:08:11] swyx: That is not true. Right. Yeah. So, so, I quite agree that. OpenAI seems to have adopted, or the community seems to have adopted this terminology of ITC instead of TTC. And that, that makes a lot of sense because like now we care about inference, even right down to compute optimality. Like I actually interviewed this author who recovered or reviewed the Chinchilla paper.[00:08:31] swyx: Chinchilla paper is compute optimal training, but what is not stated in there is it's pre trained compute optimal training. And once you start caring about inference, compute optimal training, you have a different scaling law. And in a way that we did not know last year.[00:08:45] Alessio: I wonder, because John is, he's also on the side of attention is all you need.[00:08:49] Alessio: Like he had the bet with Sasha. So I'm curious, like he doesn't believe in scaling, but he thinks the transformer, I wonder if he's still. So, so,[00:08:56] swyx: so he, obviously everything is nuanced and you know, I told him to play a character [00:09:00] for this debate, right? So he actually does. Yeah. He still, he still believes that we can scale more.[00:09:04] swyx: Uh, he just assumed the character to be very game for, for playing this debate. So even more kudos to him that he assumed a position that he didn't believe in and still won the debate.[00:09:16] Alessio: Get rekt, Dylan. Um, do you just want to quickly run through some of these things? Like, uh, Sarah's presentation, just the highlights.[00:09:24] swyx: Yeah, we can't go through everyone's slides, but I pulled out some things as a factor of, like, stuff that we were going to talk about. And we'll[00:09:30] Alessio: publish[00:09:31] swyx: the rest. Yeah, we'll publish on this feed the best of 2024 in those domains. And hopefully people can benefit from the work that our speakers have done.[00:09:39] swyx: But I think it's, uh, these are just good slides. And I've been, I've been looking for a sort of end of year recaps from, from people.[00:09:44] The Competitive AI Landscape[00:09:44] swyx: The field has progressed a lot. You know, I think the max ELO in 2023 on LMSys used to be 1200 for LMSys ELOs. And now everyone is at least at, uh, 1275 in their ELOs, and this is across Gemini, Chadjibuti, [00:10:00] Grok, O1.[00:10:01] swyx: ai, which with their E Large model, and Enthopic, of course. It's a very, very competitive race. There are multiple Frontier labs all racing, but there is a clear tier zero Frontier. And then there's like a tier one. It's like, I wish I had everything else. Tier zero is extremely competitive. It's effectively now three horse race between Gemini, uh, Anthropic and OpenAI.[00:10:21] swyx: I would say that people are still holding out a candle for XAI. XAI, I think, for some reason, because their API was very slow to roll out, is not included in these metrics. So it's actually quite hard to put on there. As someone who also does charts, XAI is continually snubbed because they don't work well with the benchmarking people.[00:10:42] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little trivia for why XAI always gets ignored. The other thing is market share. So these are slides from Sarah. We have it up on the screen. It has gone from very heavily open AI. So we have some numbers and estimates. These are from RAMP. Estimates of open AI market share in [00:11:00] December 2023.[00:11:01] swyx: And this is basically, what is it, GPT being 95 percent of production traffic. And I think if you correlate that with stuff that we asked. Harrison Chase on the LangChain episode, it was true. And then CLAUD 3 launched mid middle of this year. I think CLAUD 3 launched in March, CLAUD 3. 5 Sonnet was in June ish.[00:11:23] swyx: And you can start seeing the market share shift towards opening, uh, towards that topic, uh, very, very aggressively. The more recent one is Gemini. So if I scroll down a little bit, this is an even more recent dataset. So RAM's dataset ends in September 2 2. 2024. Gemini has basically launched a price war at the low end, uh, with Gemini Flash, uh, being basically free for personal use.[00:11:44] swyx: Like, I think people don't understand the free tier. It's something like a billion tokens per day. Unless you're trying to abuse it, you cannot really exhaust your free tier on Gemini. They're really trying to get you to use it. They know they're in like third place, um, fourth place, depending how you, how you count.[00:11:58] swyx: And so they're going after [00:12:00] the Lower tier first, and then, you know, maybe the upper tier later, but yeah, Gemini Flash, according to OpenRouter, is now 50 percent of their OpenRouter requests. Obviously, these are the small requests. These are small, cheap requests that are mathematically going to be more.[00:12:15] swyx: The smart ones obviously are still going to OpenAI. But, you know, it's a very, very big shift in the market. Like basically 2023, 2022, To going into 2024 opening has gone from nine five market share to Yeah. Reasonably somewhere between 50 to 75 market share.[00:12:29] Alessio: Yeah. I'm really curious how ramped does the attribution to the model?[00:12:32] Alessio: If it's API, because I think it's all credit card spin. . Well, but it's all, the credit card doesn't say maybe. Maybe the, maybe when they do expenses, they upload the PDF, but yeah, the, the German I think makes sense. I think that was one of my main 2024 takeaways that like. The best small model companies are the large labs, which is not something I would have thought that the open source kind of like long tail would be like the small model.[00:12:53] swyx: Yeah, different sizes of small models we're talking about here, right? Like so small model here for Gemini is AB, [00:13:00] right? Uh, mini. We don't know what the small model size is, but yeah, it's probably in the double digits or maybe single digits, but probably double digits. The open source community has kind of focused on the one to three B size.[00:13:11] swyx: Mm-hmm . Yeah. Maybe[00:13:12] swyx: zero, maybe 0.5 B uh, that's moon dream and that is small for you then, then that's great. It makes sense that we, we have a range for small now, which is like, may, maybe one to five B. Yeah. I'll even put that at, at, at the high end. And so this includes Gemma from Gemini as well. But also includes the Apple Foundation models, which I think Apple Foundation is 3B.[00:13:32] Alessio: Yeah. No, that's great. I mean, I think in the start small just meant cheap. I think today small is actually a more nuanced discussion, you know, that people weren't really having before.[00:13:43] swyx: Yeah, we can keep going. This is a slide that I smiley disagree with Sarah. She's pointing to the scale SEAL leaderboard. I think the Researchers that I talked with at NeurIPS were kind of positive on this because basically you need private test [00:14:00] sets to prevent contamination.[00:14:02] swyx: And Scale is one of maybe three or four people this year that has really made an effort in doing a credible private test set leaderboard. Llama405B does well compared to Gemini and GPT 40. And I think that's good. I would say that. You know, it's good to have an open model that is that big, that does well on those metrics.[00:14:23] swyx: But anyone putting 405B in production will tell you, if you scroll down a little bit to the artificial analysis numbers, that it is very slow and very expensive to infer. Um, it doesn't even fit on like one node. of, uh, of H100s. Cerebras will be happy to tell you they can serve 4 or 5B on their super large chips.[00:14:42] swyx: But, um, you know, if you need to do anything custom to it, you're still kind of constrained. So, is 4 or 5B really that relevant? Like, I think most people are basically saying that they only use 4 or 5B as a teacher model to distill down to something. Even Meta is doing it. So with Lama 3. [00:15:00] 3 launched, they only launched the 70B because they use 4 or 5B to distill the 70B.[00:15:03] swyx: So I don't know if like open source is keeping up. I think they're the, the open source industrial complex is very invested in telling you that the, if the gap is narrowing, I kind of disagree. I think that the gap is widening with O1. I think there are very, very smart people trying to narrow that gap and they should.[00:15:22] swyx: I really wish them success, but you cannot use a chart that is nearing 100 in your saturation chart. And look, the distance between open source and closed source is narrowing. Of course it's going to narrow because you're near 100. This is stupid. But in metrics that matter, is open source narrowing?[00:15:38] swyx: Probably not for O1 for a while. And it's really up to the open source guys to figure out if they can match O1 or not.[00:15:46] Alessio: I think inference time compute is bad for open source just because, you know, Doc can donate the flops at training time, but he cannot donate the flops at inference time. So it's really hard to like actually keep up on that axis.[00:15:59] Alessio: Big, big business [00:16:00] model shift. So I don't know what that means for the GPU clouds. I don't know what that means for the hyperscalers, but obviously the big labs have a lot of advantage. Because, like, it's not a static artifact that you're putting the compute in. You're kind of doing that still, but then you're putting a lot of computed inference too.[00:16:17] swyx: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, Llama4 will be reasoning oriented. We talked with Thomas Shalom. Um, kudos for getting that episode together. That was really nice. Good, well timed. Actually, I connected with the AI meta guy, uh, at NeurIPS, and, um, yeah, we're going to coordinate something for Llama4. Yeah, yeah,[00:16:32] Alessio: and our friend, yeah.[00:16:33] Alessio: Clara Shi just joined to lead the business agent side. So I'm sure we'll have her on in the new year.[00:16:39] swyx: Yeah. So, um, my comment on, on the business model shift, this is super interesting. Apparently it is wide knowledge that OpenAI wanted more than 6. 6 billion dollars for their fundraise. They wanted to raise, you know, higher, and they did not.[00:16:51] swyx: And what that means is basically like, it's very convenient that we're not getting GPT 5, which would have been a larger pre train. We should have a lot of upfront money. And [00:17:00] instead we're, we're converting fixed costs into variable costs, right. And passing it on effectively to the customer. And it's so much easier to take margin there because you can directly attribute it to like, Oh, you're using this more.[00:17:12] swyx: Therefore you, you pay more of the cost and I'll just slap a margin in there. So like that lets you control your growth margin and like tie your. Your spend, or your sort of inference spend, accordingly. And it's just really interesting to, that this change in the sort of inference paradigm has arrived exactly at the same time that the funding environment for pre training is effectively drying up, kind of.[00:17:36] swyx: I feel like maybe the VCs are very in tune with research anyway, so like, they would have noticed this, but, um, it's just interesting.[00:17:43] Alessio: Yeah, and I was looking back at our yearly recap of last year. Yeah. And the big thing was like the mixed trial price fights, you know, and I think now it's almost like there's nowhere to go, like, you know, Gemini Flash is like basically giving it away for free.[00:17:55] Alessio: So I think this is a good way for the labs to generate more revenue and pass down [00:18:00] some of the compute to the customer. I think they're going to[00:18:02] swyx: keep going. I think that 2, will come.[00:18:05] Alessio: Yeah, I know. Totally. I mean, next year, the first thing I'm doing is signing up for Devin. Signing up for the pro chat GBT.[00:18:12] Alessio: Just to try. I just want to see what does it look like to spend a thousand dollars a month on AI?[00:18:17] swyx: Yes. Yes. I think if your, if your, your job is a, at least AI content creator or VC or, you know, someone who, whose job it is to stay on, stay on top of things, you should already be spending like a thousand dollars a month on, on stuff.[00:18:28] swyx: And then obviously easy to spend, hard to use. You have to actually use. The good thing is that actually Google lets you do a lot of stuff for free now. So like deep research. That they just launched. Uses a ton of inference and it's, it's free while it's in preview.[00:18:45] Alessio: Yeah. They need to put that in Lindy.[00:18:47] Alessio: I've been using Lindy lately. I've been a built a bunch of things once we had flow because I liked the new thing. It's pretty good. I even did a phone call assistant. Um, yeah, they just launched Lindy voice. Yeah, I think once [00:19:00] they get advanced voice mode like capability today, still like speech to text, you can kind of tell.[00:19:06] Alessio: Um, but it's good for like reservations and things like that. So I have a meeting prepper thing. And so[00:19:13] swyx: it's good. Okay. I feel like we've, we've covered a lot of stuff. Uh, I, yeah, I, you know, I think We will go over the individual, uh, talks in a separate episode. Uh, I don't want to take too much time with, uh, this stuff, but that suffice to say that there is a lot of progress in each field.[00:19:28] swyx: Uh, we covered vision. Basically this is all like the audience voting for what they wanted. And then I just invited the best people I could find in each audience, especially agents. Um, Graham, who I talked to at ICML in Vienna, he is currently still number one. It's very hard to stay on top of SweetBench.[00:19:45] swyx: OpenHand is currently still number one. switchbench full, which is the hardest one. He had very good thoughts on agents, which I, which I'll highlight for people. Everyone is saying 2025 is the year of agents, just like they said last year. And, uh, but he had [00:20:00] thoughts on like eight parts of what are the frontier problems to solve in agents.[00:20:03] swyx: And so I'll highlight that talk as well.[00:20:05] Alessio: Yeah. The number six, which is the Hacken agents learn more about the environment, has been a Super interesting to us as well, just to think through, because, yeah, how do you put an agent in an enterprise where most things in an enterprise have never been public, you know, a lot of the tooling, like the code bases and things like that.[00:20:23] Alessio: So, yeah, there's not indexing and reg. Well, yeah, but it's more like. You can't really rag things that are not documented. But people know them based on how they've been doing it. You know, so I think there's almost this like, you know, Oh, institutional knowledge. Yeah, the boring word is kind of like a business process extraction.[00:20:38] Alessio: Yeah yeah, I see. It's like, how do you actually understand how these things are done? I see. Um, and I think today the, the problem is that, Yeah, the agents are, that most people are building are good at following instruction, but are not as good as like extracting them from you. Um, so I think that will be a big unlock just to touch quickly on the Jeff Dean thing.[00:20:55] Alessio: I thought it was pretty, I mean, we'll link it in the, in the things, but. I think the main [00:21:00] focus was like, how do you use ML to optimize the systems instead of just focusing on ML to do something else? Yeah, I think speculative decoding, we had, you know, Eugene from RWKB on the podcast before, like he's doing a lot of that with Fetterless AI.[00:21:12] swyx: Everyone is. I would say it's the norm. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with how much it costs, because it does use more of the GPU per call. But because everyone is so keen on fast inference, then yeah, makes sense.[00:21:24] Alessio: Exactly. Um, yeah, but we'll link that. Obviously Jeff is great.[00:21:30] swyx: Jeff is, Jeff's talk was more, it wasn't focused on Gemini.[00:21:33] swyx: I think people got the wrong impression from my tweet. It's more about how Google approaches ML and uses ML to design systems and then systems feedback into ML. And I think this ties in with Lubna's talk.[00:21:45] Synthetic Data and Future Trends[00:21:45] swyx: on synthetic data where it's basically the story of bootstrapping of humans and AI in AI research or AI in production.[00:21:53] swyx: So her talk was on synthetic data, where like how much synthetic data has grown in 2024 in the pre training side, the post training side, [00:22:00] and the eval side. And I think Jeff then also extended it basically to chips, uh, to chip design. So he'd spend a lot of time talking about alpha chip. And most of us in the audience are like, we're not working on hardware, man.[00:22:11] swyx: Like you guys are great. TPU is great. Okay. We'll buy TPUs.[00:22:14] Alessio: And then there was the earlier talk. Yeah. But, and then we have, uh, I don't know if we're calling them essays. What are we calling these? But[00:22:23] swyx: for me, it's just like bonus for late in space supporters, because I feel like they haven't been getting anything.[00:22:29] swyx: And then I wanted a more high frequency way to write stuff. Like that one I wrote in an afternoon. I think basically we now have an answer to what Ilya saw. It's one year since. The blip. And we know what he saw in 2014. We know what he saw in 2024. We think we know what he sees in 2024. He gave some hints and then we have vague indications of what he saw in 2023.[00:22:54] swyx: So that was the Oh, and then 2016 as well, because of this lawsuit with Elon, OpenAI [00:23:00] is publishing emails from Sam's, like, his personal text messages to Siobhan, Zelis, or whatever. So, like, we have emails from Ilya saying, this is what we're seeing in OpenAI, and this is why we need to scale up GPUs. And I think it's very prescient in 2016 to write that.[00:23:16] swyx: And so, like, it is exactly, like, basically his insights. It's him and Greg, basically just kind of driving the scaling up of OpenAI, while they're still playing Dota. They're like, no, like, we see the path here.[00:23:30] Alessio: Yeah, and it's funny, yeah, they even mention, you know, we can only train on 1v1 Dota. We need to train on 5v5, and that takes too many GPUs.[00:23:37] Alessio: Yeah,[00:23:37] swyx: and at least for me, I can speak for myself, like, I didn't see the path from Dota to where we are today. I think even, maybe if you ask them, like, they wouldn't necessarily draw a straight line. Yeah,[00:23:47] Alessio: no, definitely. But I think like that was like the whole idea of almost like the RL and we talked about this with Nathan on his podcast.[00:23:55] Alessio: It's like with RL, you can get very good at specific things, but then you can't really like generalize as much. And I [00:24:00] think the language models are like the opposite, which is like, you're going to throw all this data at them and scale them up, but then you really need to drive them home on a specific task later on.[00:24:08] Alessio: And we'll talk about the open AI reinforcement, fine tuning, um, announcement too, and all of that. But yeah, I think like scale is all you need. That's kind of what Elia will be remembered for. And I think just maybe to clarify on like the pre training is over thing that people love to tweet. I think the point of the talk was like everybody, we're scaling these chips, we're scaling the compute, but like the second ingredient which is data is not scaling at the same rate.[00:24:35] Alessio: So it's not necessarily pre training is over. It's kind of like What got us here won't get us there. In his email, he predicted like 10x growth every two years or something like that. And I think maybe now it's like, you know, you can 10x the chips again, but[00:24:49] swyx: I think it's 10x per year. Was it? I don't know.[00:24:52] Alessio: Exactly. And Moore's law is like 2x. So it's like, you know, much faster than that. And yeah, I like the fossil fuel of AI [00:25:00] analogy. It's kind of like, you know, the little background tokens thing. So the OpenAI reinforcement fine tuning is basically like, instead of fine tuning on data, you fine tune on a reward model.[00:25:09] Alessio: So it's basically like, instead of being data driven, it's like task driven. And I think people have tasks to do, they don't really have a lot of data. So I'm curious to see how that changes, how many people fine tune, because I think this is what people run into. It's like, Oh, you can fine tune llama. And it's like, okay, where do I get the data?[00:25:27] Alessio: To fine tune it on, you know, so it's great that we're moving the thing. And then I really like he had this chart where like, you know, the brain mass and the body mass thing is basically like mammals that scaled linearly by brain and body size, and then humans kind of like broke off the slope. So it's almost like maybe the mammal slope is like the pre training slope.[00:25:46] Alessio: And then the post training slope is like the, the human one.[00:25:49] swyx: Yeah. I wonder what the. I mean, we'll know in 10 years, but I wonder what the y axis is for, for Ilya's SSI. We'll try to get them on.[00:25:57] Alessio: Ilya, if you're listening, you're [00:26:00] welcome here. Yeah, and then he had, you know, what comes next, like agent, synthetic data, inference, compute, I thought all of that was like that.[00:26:05] Alessio: I don't[00:26:05] swyx: think he was dropping any alpha there. Yeah, yeah, yeah.[00:26:07] Alessio: Yeah. Any other new reps? Highlights?[00:26:10] swyx: I think that there was comparatively a lot more work. Oh, by the way, I need to plug that, uh, my friend Yi made this, like, little nice paper. Yeah, that was really[00:26:20] swyx: nice.[00:26:20] swyx: Uh, of, uh, of, like, all the, he's, she called it must read papers of 2024.[00:26:26] swyx: So I laid out some of these at NeurIPS, and it was just gone. Like, everyone just picked it up. Because people are dying for, like, little guidance and visualizations And so, uh, I thought it was really super nice that we got there.[00:26:38] Alessio: Should we do a late in space book for each year? Uh, I thought about it. For each year we should.[00:26:42] Alessio: Coffee table book. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Put it in the will. Hi, Will. By the way, we haven't introduced you. He's our new, you know, general organist, Jamie. You need to[00:26:52] swyx: pull up more things. One thing I saw that, uh, Okay, one fun one, and then one [00:27:00] more general one. So the fun one is this paper on agent collusion. This is a paper on steganography.[00:27:06] swyx: This is secret collusion among AI agents, multi agent deception via steganography. I tried to go to NeurIPS in order to find these kinds of papers because the real reason Like NeurIPS this year has a lottery system. A lot of people actually even go and don't buy tickets because they just go and attend the side events.[00:27:22] swyx: And then also the people who go and end up crowding around the most popular papers, which you already know and already read them before you showed up to NeurIPS. So the only reason you go there is to talk to the paper authors, but there's like something like 10, 000 other. All these papers out there that, you know, are just people's work that they, that they did on the air and they failed to get attention for one reason or another.[00:27:42] swyx: And this was one of them. Uh, it was like all the way at the back. And this is a deep mind paper that actually focuses on collusion between AI agents, uh, by hiding messages in the text that they generate. Uh, so that's what steganography is. So a very simple example would be the first letter of every word.[00:27:57] swyx: If you Pick that out, you know, and the code sends a [00:28:00] different message than that. But something I've always emphasized is to LLMs, we read left to right. LLMs can read up, down, sideways, you know, in random character order. And it's the same to them as it is to us. So if we were ever to get You know, self motivated, underlined LLMs that we're trying to collaborate to take over the planet.[00:28:19] swyx: This would be how they do it. They spread messages among us in the messages that we generate. And he developed a scaling law for that. So he marked, I'm showing it on screen right now, the emergence of this phenomenon. Basically, for example, for Cypher encoding, GPT 2, Lama 2, mixed trial, GPT 3. 5, zero capabilities, and sudden 4.[00:28:40] swyx: And this is the kind of Jason Wei type emergence properties that people kind of look for. I think what made this paper stand out as well, so he developed the benchmark for steganography collusion, and he also focused on shelling point collusion, which is very low coordination. For agreeing on a decoding encoding format, you kind of need to have some [00:29:00] agreement on that.[00:29:00] swyx: But, but shelling point means like very, very low or almost no coordination. So for example, if I, if I ask someone, if the only message I give you is meet me in New York and you're not aware. Or when you would probably meet me at Grand Central Station. That is the Grand Central Station is a shelling point.[00:29:16] swyx: And it's probably somewhere, somewhere during the day. That is the shelling point of New York is Grand Central. To that extent, shelling points for steganography are things like the, the, the common decoding methods that we talked about. It will be interesting at some point in the future when we are worried about alignment.[00:29:30] swyx: It is not interesting today, but it's interesting that DeepMind is already thinking about this.[00:29:36] Alessio: I think that's like one of the hardest things about NeurIPS. It's like the long tail. I[00:29:41] swyx: found a pricing guy. I'm going to feature him on the podcast. Basically, this guy from NVIDIA worked out the optimal pricing for language models.[00:29:51] swyx: It's basically an econometrics paper at NeurIPS, where everyone else is talking about GPUs. And the guy with the GPUs is[00:29:57] Alessio: talking[00:29:57] swyx: about economics instead. [00:30:00] That was the sort of fun one. So the focus I saw is that model papers at NeurIPS are kind of dead. No one really presents models anymore. It's just data sets.[00:30:12] swyx: This is all the grad students are working on. So like there was a data sets track and then I was looking around like, I was like, you don't need a data sets track because every paper is a data sets paper. And so data sets and benchmarks, they're kind of flip sides of the same thing. So Yeah. Cool. Yeah, if you're a grad student, you're a GPU boy, you kind of work on that.[00:30:30] swyx: And then the, the sort of big model that people walk around and pick the ones that they like, and then they use it in their models. And that's, that's kind of how it develops. I, I feel like, um, like, like you didn't last year, you had people like Hao Tian who worked on Lava, which is take Lama and add Vision.[00:30:47] swyx: And then obviously actually I hired him and he added Vision to Grok. Now he's the Vision Grok guy. This year, I don't think there was any of those.[00:30:55] Alessio: What were the most popular, like, orals? Last year it was like the [00:31:00] Mixed Monarch, I think, was like the most attended. Yeah, uh, I need to look it up. Yeah, I mean, if nothing comes to mind, that's also kind of like an answer in a way.[00:31:10] Alessio: But I think last year there was a lot of interest in, like, furthering models and, like, different architectures and all of that.[00:31:16] swyx: I will say that I felt the orals, oral picks this year were not very good. Either that or maybe it's just a So that's the highlight of how I have changed in terms of how I view papers.[00:31:29] swyx: So like, in my estimation, two of the best papers in this year for datasets or data comp and refined web or fine web. These are two actually industrially used papers, not highlighted for a while. I think DCLM got the spotlight, FineWeb didn't even get the spotlight. So like, it's just that the picks were different.[00:31:48] swyx: But one thing that does get a lot of play that a lot of people are debating is the role that's scheduled. This is the schedule free optimizer paper from Meta from Aaron DeFazio. And this [00:32:00] year in the ML community, there's been a lot of chat about shampoo, soap, all the bathroom amenities for optimizing your learning rates.[00:32:08] swyx: And, uh, most people at the big labs are. Who I asked about this, um, say that it's cute, but it's not something that matters. I don't know, but it's something that was discussed and very, very popular. 4Wars[00:32:19] Alessio: of AI recap maybe, just quickly. Um, where do you want to start? Data?[00:32:26] swyx: So to remind people, this is the 4Wars piece that we did as one of our earlier recaps of this year.[00:32:31] swyx: And the belligerents are on the left, journalists, writers, artists, anyone who owns IP basically, New York Times, Stack Overflow, Reddit, Getty, Sarah Silverman, George RR Martin. Yeah, and I think this year we can add Scarlett Johansson to that side of the fence. So anyone suing, open the eye, basically. I actually wanted to get a snapshot of all the lawsuits.[00:32:52] swyx: I'm sure some lawyer can do it. That's the data quality war. On the right hand side, we have the synthetic data people, and I think we talked about Lumna's talk, you know, [00:33:00] really showing how much synthetic data has come along this year. I think there was a bit of a fight between scale. ai and the synthetic data community, because scale.[00:33:09] swyx: ai published a paper saying that synthetic data doesn't work. Surprise, surprise, scale. ai is the leading vendor of non synthetic data. Only[00:33:17] Alessio: cage free annotated data is useful.[00:33:21] swyx: So I think there's some debate going on there, but I don't think it's much debate anymore that at least synthetic data, for the reasons that are blessed in Luna's talk, Makes sense.[00:33:32] swyx: I don't know if you have any perspectives there.[00:33:34] Alessio: I think, again, going back to the reinforcement fine tuning, I think that will change a little bit how people think about it. I think today people mostly use synthetic data, yeah, for distillation and kind of like fine tuning a smaller model from like a larger model.[00:33:46] Alessio: I'm not super aware of how the frontier labs use it outside of like the rephrase, the web thing that Apple also did. But yeah, I think it'll be. Useful. I think like whether or not that gets us the big [00:34:00] next step, I think that's maybe like TBD, you know, I think people love talking about data because it's like a GPU poor, you know, I think, uh, synthetic data is like something that people can do, you know, so they feel more opinionated about it compared to, yeah, the optimizers stuff, which is like,[00:34:17] swyx: they don't[00:34:17] Alessio: really work[00:34:18] swyx: on.[00:34:18] swyx: I think that there is an angle to the reasoning synthetic data. So this year, we covered in the paper club, the star series of papers. So that's star, Q star, V star. It basically helps you to synthesize reasoning steps, or at least distill reasoning steps from a verifier. And if you look at the OpenAI RFT, API that they released, or that they announced, basically they're asking you to submit graders, or they choose from a preset list of graders.[00:34:49] swyx: Basically It feels like a way to create valid synthetic data for them to fine tune their reasoning paths on. Um, so I think that is another angle where it starts to make sense. And [00:35:00] so like, it's very funny that basically all the data quality wars between Let's say the music industry or like the newspaper publishing industry or the textbooks industry on the big labs.[00:35:11] swyx: It's all of the pre training era. And then like the new era, like the reasoning era, like nobody has any problem with all the reasoning, especially because it's all like sort of math and science oriented with, with very reasonable graders. I think the more interesting next step is how does it generalize beyond STEM?[00:35:27] swyx: We've been using O1 for And I would say like for summarization and creative writing and instruction following, I think it's underrated. I started using O1 in our intro songs before we killed the intro songs, but it's very good at writing lyrics. You know, I can actually say like, I think one of the O1 pro demos.[00:35:46] swyx: All of these things that Noam was showing was that, you know, you can write an entire paragraph or three paragraphs without using the letter A, right?[00:35:53] Creative Writing with AI[00:35:53] swyx: So like, like literally just anything instead of token, like not even token level, character level manipulation and [00:36:00] counting and instruction following. It's, uh, it's very, very strong.[00:36:02] swyx: And so no surprises when I ask it to rhyme, uh, and to, to create song lyrics, it's going to do that very much better than in previous models. So I think it's underrated for creative writing.[00:36:11] Alessio: Yeah.[00:36:12] Legal and Ethical Issues in AI[00:36:12] Alessio: What do you think is the rationale that they're going to have in court when they don't show you the thinking traces of O1, but then they want us to, like, they're getting sued for using other publishers data, you know, but then on their end, they're like, well, you shouldn't be using my data to then train your model.[00:36:29] Alessio: So I'm curious to see how that kind of comes. Yeah, I mean, OPA has[00:36:32] swyx: many ways to publish, to punish people without bringing, taking them to court. Already banned ByteDance for distilling their, their info. And so anyone caught distilling the chain of thought will be just disallowed to continue on, on, on the API.[00:36:44] swyx: And it's fine. It's no big deal. Like, I don't even think that's an issue at all, just because the chain of thoughts are pretty well hidden. Like you have to work very, very hard to, to get it to leak. And then even when it leaks the chain of thought, you don't know if it's, if it's [00:37:00] The bigger concern is actually that there's not that much IP hiding behind it, that Cosign, which we talked about, we talked to him on Dev Day, can just fine tune 4.[00:37:13] swyx: 0 to beat 0. 1 Cloud SONET so far is beating O1 on coding tasks without, at least O1 preview, without being a reasoning model, same for Gemini Pro or Gemini 2. 0. So like, how much is reasoning important? How much of a moat is there in this, like, All of these are proprietary sort of training data that they've presumably accomplished.[00:37:34] swyx: Because even DeepSeek was able to do it. And they had, you know, two months notice to do this, to do R1. So, it's actually unclear how much moat there is. Obviously, you know, if you talk to the Strawberry team, they'll be like, yeah, I mean, we spent the last two years doing this. So, we don't know. And it's going to be Interesting because there'll be a lot of noise from people who say they have inference time compute and actually don't because they just have fancy chain of thought.[00:38:00][00:38:00] swyx: And then there's other people who actually do have very good chain of thought. And you will not see them on the same level as OpenAI because OpenAI has invested a lot in building up the mythology of their team. Um, which makes sense. Like the real answer is somewhere in between.[00:38:13] Alessio: Yeah, I think that's kind of like the main data war story developing.[00:38:18] The Data War: GPU Poor vs. GPU Rich[00:38:18] Alessio: GPU poor versus GPU rich. Yeah. Where do you think we are? I think there was, again, going back to like the small model thing, there was like a time in which the GPU poor were kind of like the rebel faction working on like these models that were like open and small and cheap. And I think today people don't really care as much about GPUs anymore.[00:38:37] Alessio: You also see it in the price of the GPUs. Like, you know, that market is kind of like plummeted because there's people don't want to be, they want to be GPU free. They don't even want to be poor. They just want to be, you know, completely without them. Yeah. How do you think about this war? You[00:38:52] swyx: can tell me about this, but like, I feel like the, the appetite for GPU rich startups, like the, you know, the, the funding plan is we will raise 60 million and [00:39:00] we'll give 50 of that to NVIDIA.[00:39:01] swyx: That is gone, right? Like, no one's, no one's pitching that. This was literally the plan, the exact plan of like, I can name like four or five startups, you know, this time last year. So yeah, GPU rich startups gone.[00:39:12] The Rise of GPU Ultra Rich[00:39:12] swyx: But I think like, The GPU ultra rich, the GPU ultra high net worth is still going. So, um, now we're, you know, we had Leopold's essay on the trillion dollar cluster.[00:39:23] swyx: We're not quite there yet. We have multiple labs, um, you know, XAI very famously, you know, Jensen Huang praising them for being. Best boy number one in spinning up 100, 000 GPU cluster in like 12 days or something. So likewise at Meta, likewise at OpenAI, likewise at the other labs as well. So like the GPU ultra rich are going to keep doing that because I think partially it's an article of faith now that you just need it.[00:39:46] swyx: Like you don't even know what it's going to, what you're going to use it for. You just, you just need it. And it makes sense that if, especially if we're going into. More researchy territory than we are. So let's say 2020 to 2023 was [00:40:00] let's scale big models territory because we had GPT 3 in 2020 and we were like, okay, we'll go from 1.[00:40:05] swyx: 75b to 1. 8b, 1. 8t. And that was GPT 3 to GPT 4. Okay, that's done. As far as everyone is concerned, Opus 3. 5 is not coming out, GPT 4. 5 is not coming out, and Gemini 2, we don't have Pro, whatever. We've hit that wall. Maybe I'll call it the 2 trillion perimeter wall. We're not going to 10 trillion. No one thinks it's a good idea, at least from training costs, from the amount of data, or at least the inference.[00:40:36] swyx: Would you pay 10x the price of GPT Probably not. Like, like you want something else that, that is at least more useful. So it makes sense that people are pivoting in terms of their inference paradigm.[00:40:47] Emerging Trends in AI Models[00:40:47] swyx: And so when it's more researchy, then you actually need more just general purpose compute to mess around with, uh, at the exact same time that production deployments of the old, the previous paradigm is still ramping up,[00:40:58] swyx: um,[00:40:58] swyx: uh, pretty aggressively.[00:40:59] swyx: So [00:41:00] it makes sense that the GPU rich are growing. We have now interviewed both together and fireworks and replicates. Uh, we haven't done any scale yet. But I think Amazon, maybe kind of a sleeper one, Amazon, in a sense of like they, at reInvent, I wasn't expecting them to do so well, but they are now a foundation model lab.[00:41:18] swyx: It's kind of interesting. Um, I think, uh, you know, David went over there and started just creating models.[00:41:25] Alessio: Yeah, I mean, that's the power of prepaid contracts. I think like a lot of AWS customers, you know, they do this big reserve instance contracts and now they got to use their money. That's why so many startups.[00:41:37] Alessio: Get bought through the AWS marketplace so they can kind of bundle them together and prefer pricing.[00:41:42] swyx: Okay, so maybe GPU super rich doing very well, GPU middle class dead, and then GPU[00:41:48] Alessio: poor. I mean, my thing is like, everybody should just be GPU rich. There shouldn't really be, even the GPU poorest, it's like, does it really make sense to be GPU poor?[00:41:57] Alessio: Like, if you're GPU poor, you should just use the [00:42:00] cloud. Yes, you know, and I think there might be a future once we kind of like figure out what the size and shape of these models is where like the tiny box and these things come to fruition where like you can be GPU poor at home. But I think today is like, why are you working so hard to like get these models to run on like very small clusters where it's like, It's so cheap to run them.[00:42:21] Alessio: Yeah, yeah,[00:42:22] swyx: yeah. I think mostly people think it's cool. People think it's a stepping stone to scaling up. So they aspire to be GPU rich one day and they're working on new methods. Like news research, like probably the most deep tech thing they've done this year is Distro or whatever the new name is.[00:42:38] swyx: There's a lot of interest in heterogeneous computing, distributed computing. I tend generally to de emphasize that historically, but it may be coming to a time where it is starting to be relevant. I don't know. You know, SF compute launched their compute marketplace this year, and like, who's really using that?[00:42:53] swyx: Like, it's a bunch of small clusters, disparate types of compute, and if you can make that [00:43:00] useful, then that will be very beneficial to the broader community, but maybe still not the source of frontier models. It's just going to be a second tier of compute that is unlocked for people, and that's fine. But yeah, I mean, I think this year, I would say a lot more on device, We are, I now have Apple intelligence on my phone.[00:43:19] swyx: Doesn't do anything apart from summarize my notifications. But still, not bad. Like, it's multi modal.[00:43:25] Alessio: Yeah, the notification summaries are so and so in my experience.[00:43:29] swyx: Yeah, but they add, they add juice to life. And then, um, Chrome Nano, uh, Gemini Nano is coming out in Chrome. Uh, they're still feature flagged, but you can, you can try it now if you, if you use the, uh, the alpha.[00:43:40] swyx: And so, like, I, I think, like, you know, We're getting the sort of GPU poor version of a lot of these things coming out, and I think it's like quite useful. Like Windows as well, rolling out RWKB in sort of every Windows department is super cool. And I think the last thing that I never put in this GPU poor war, that I think I should now, [00:44:00] is the number of startups that are GPU poor but still scaling very well, as sort of wrappers on top of either a foundation model lab, or GPU Cloud.[00:44:10] swyx: GPU Cloud, it would be Suno. Suno, Ramp has rated as one of the top ranked, fastest growing startups of the year. Um, I think the last public number is like zero to 20 million this year in ARR and Suno runs on Moto. So Suno itself is not GPU rich, but they're just doing the training on, on Moto, uh, who we've also talked to on, on the podcast.[00:44:31] swyx: The other one would be Bolt, straight cloud wrapper. And, and, um, Again, another, now they've announced 20 million ARR, which is another step up from our 8 million that we put on the title. So yeah, I mean, it's crazy that all these GPU pores are finding a way while the GPU riches are also finding a way. And then the only failures, I kind of call this the GPU smiling curve, where the edges do well, because you're either close to the machines, and you're like [00:45:00] number one on the machines, or you're like close to the customers, and you're number one on the customer side.[00:45:03] swyx: And the people who are in the middle. Inflection, um, character, didn't do that great. I think character did the best of all of them. Like, you have a note in here that we apparently said that character's price tag was[00:45:15] Alessio: 1B.[00:45:15] swyx: Did I say that?[00:45:16] Alessio: Yeah. You said Google should just buy them for 1B. I thought it was a crazy number.[00:45:20] Alessio: Then they paid 2. 7 billion. I mean, for like,[00:45:22] swyx: yeah.[00:45:22] Alessio: What do you pay for node? Like, I don't know what the game world was like. Maybe the starting price was 1B. I mean, whatever it was, it worked out for everybody involved.[00:45:31] The Multi-Modality War[00:45:31] Alessio: Multimodality war. And this one, we never had text to video in the first version, which now is the hottest.[00:45:37] swyx: Yeah, I would say it's a subset of image, but yes.[00:45:40] Alessio: Yeah, well, but I think at the time it wasn't really something people were doing, and now we had VO2 just came out yesterday. Uh, Sora was released last month, last week. I've not tried Sora, because the day that I tried, it wasn't, yeah. I[00:45:54] swyx: think it's generally available now, you can go to Sora.[00:45:56] swyx: com and try it. Yeah, they had[00:45:58] Alessio: the outage. Which I [00:46:00] think also played a part into it. Small things. Yeah. What's the other model that you posted today that was on Replicate? Video or OneLive?[00:46:08] swyx: Yeah. Very, very nondescript name, but it is from Minimax, which I think is a Chinese lab. The Chinese labs do surprisingly well at the video models.[00:46:20] swyx: I'm not sure it's actually Chinese. I don't know. Hold me up to that. Yep. China. It's good. Yeah, the Chinese love video. What can I say? They have a lot of training data for video. Or a more relaxed regulatory environment.[00:46:37] Alessio: Uh, well, sure, in some way. Yeah, I don't think there's much else there. I think like, you know, on the image side, I think it's still open.[00:46:45] Alessio: Yeah, I mean,[00:46:46] swyx: 11labs is now a unicorn. So basically, what is multi modality war? Multi modality war is, do you specialize in a single modality, right? Or do you have GodModel that does all the modalities? So this is [00:47:00] definitely still going, in a sense of 11 labs, you know, now Unicorn, PicoLabs doing well, they launched Pico 2.[00:47:06] swyx: 0 recently, HeyGen, I think has reached 100 million ARR, Assembly, I don't know, but they have billboards all over the place, so I assume they're doing very, very well. So these are all specialist models, specialist models and specialist startups. And then there's the big labs who are doing the sort of all in one play.[00:47:24] swyx: And then here I would highlight Gemini 2 for having native image output. Have you seen the demos? Um, yeah, it's, it's hard to keep up. Literally they launched this last week and a shout out to Paige Bailey, who came to the Latent Space event to demo on the day of launch. And she wasn't prepared. She was just like, I'm just going to show you.[00:47:43] swyx: So they have voice. They have, you know, obviously image input, and then they obviously can code gen and all that. But the new one that OpenAI and Meta both have but they haven't launched yet is image output. So you can literally, um, I think their demo video was that you put in an image of a [00:48:00] car, and you ask for minor modifications to that car.[00:48:02] swyx: They can generate you that modification exactly as you asked. So there's no need for the stable diffusion or comfy UI workflow of like mask here and then like infill there in paint there and all that, all that stuff. This is small model nonsense. Big model people are like, huh, we got you in as everything in the transformer.[00:48:21] swyx: This is the multimodality war, which is, do you, do you bet on the God model or do you string together a whole bunch of, uh, Small models like a, like a chump. Yeah,[00:48:29] Alessio: I don't know, man. Yeah, that would be interesting. I mean, obviously I use Midjourney for all of our thumbnails. Um, they've been doing a ton on the product, I would say.[00:48:38] Alessio: They launched a new Midjourney editor thing. They've been doing a ton. Because I think, yeah, the motto is kind of like, Maybe, you know, people say black forest, the black forest models are better than mid journey on a pixel by pixel basis. But I think when you put it, put it together, have you tried[00:48:53] swyx: the same problems on black forest?[00:48:55] Alessio: Yes. But the problem is just like, you know, on black forest, it generates one image. And then it's like, you got to [00:49:00] regenerate. You don't have all these like UI things. Like what I do, no, but it's like time issue, you know, it's like a mid[00:49:06] swyx: journey. Call the API four times.[00:49:08] Alessio: No, but then there's no like variate.[00:49:10] Alessio: Like the good thing about mid journey is like, you just go in there and you're cooking. There's a lot of stuff that just makes it really easy. And I think people underestimate that. Like, it's not really a skill issue, because I'm paying mid journey, so it's a Black Forest skill issue, because I'm not paying them, you know?[00:49:24] Alessio: Yeah,[00:49:25] swyx: so, okay, so, uh, this is a UX thing, right? Like, you, you, you understand that, at least, we think that Black Forest should be able to do all that stuff. I will also shout out, ReCraft has come out, uh, on top of the image arena that, uh, artificial analysis has done, has apparently, uh, Flux's place. Is this still true?[00:49:41] swyx: So, Artificial Analysis is now a company. I highlighted them I think in one of the early AI Newses of the year. And they have launched a whole bunch of arenas. So, they're trying to take on LM Arena, Anastasios and crew. And they have an image arena. Oh yeah, Recraft v3 is now beating Flux 1. 1. Which is very surprising [00:50:00] because Flux And Black Forest Labs are the old stable diffusion crew who left stability after, um, the management issues.[00:50:06] swyx: So Recurve has come from nowhere to be the top image model. Uh, very, very strange. I would also highlight that Grok has now launched Aurora, which is, it's very interesting dynamics between Grok and Black Forest Labs because Grok's images were originally launched, uh, in partnership with Black Forest Labs as a, as a thin wrapper.[00:50:24] swyx: And then Grok was like, no, we'll make our own. And so they've made their own. I don't know, there are no APIs or benchmarks about it. They just announced it. So yeah, that's the multi modality war. I would say that so far, the small model, the dedicated model people are winning, because they are just focused on their tasks.[00:50:42] swyx: But the big model, People are always catching up. And the moment I saw the Gemini 2 demo of image editing, where I can put in an image and just request it and it does, that's how AI should work. Not like a whole bunch of complicated steps. So it really is something. And I think one frontier that we haven't [00:51:00] seen this year, like obviously video has done very well, and it will continue to grow.[00:51:03] swyx: You know, we only have Sora Turbo today, but at some point we'll get full Sora. Oh, at least the Hollywood Labs will get Fulsora. We haven't seen video to audio, or video synced to audio. And so the researchers that I talked to are already starting to talk about that as the next frontier. But there's still maybe like five more years of video left to actually be Soda.[00:51:23] swyx: I would say that Gemini's approach Compared to OpenAI, Gemini seems, or DeepMind's approach to video seems a lot more fully fledged than OpenAI. Because if you look at the ICML recap that I published that so far nobody has listened to, um, that people have listened to it. It's just a different, definitely different audience.[00:51:43] swyx: It's only seven hours long. Why are people not listening? It's like everything in Uh, so, so DeepMind has, is working on Genie. They also launched Genie 2 and VideoPoet. So, like, they have maybe four years advantage on world modeling that OpenAI does not have. Because OpenAI basically only started [00:52:00] Diffusion Transformers last year, you know, when they hired, uh, Bill Peebles.[00:52:03] swyx: So, DeepMind has, has a bit of advantage here, I would say, in, in, in showing, like, the reason that VO2, while one, They cherry pick their videos. So obviously it looks better than Sora, but the reason I would believe that VO2, uh, when it's fully launched will do very well is because they have all this background work in video that they've done for years.[00:52:22] swyx: Like, like last year's NeurIPS, I already was interviewing some of their video people. I forget their model name, but for, for people who are dedicated fans, they can go to NeurIPS 2023 and see, see that paper.[00:52:32] Alessio: And then last but not least, the LLMOS. We renamed it to Ragops, formerly known as[00:52:39] swyx: Ragops War. I put the latest chart on the Braintrust episode.[00:52:43] swyx: I think I'm going to separate these essays from the episode notes. So the reason I used to do that, by the way, is because I wanted to show up on Hacker News. I wanted the podcast to show up on Hacker News. So I always put an essay inside of there because Hacker News people like to read and not listen.[00:52:58] Alessio: So episode essays,[00:52:59] swyx: I remember [00:53:00] purchasing them separately. You say Lanchain Llama Index is still growing.[00:53:03] Alessio: Yeah, so I looked at the PyPy stats, you know. I don't care about stars. On PyPy you see Do you want to share your screen? Yes. I prefer to look at actual downloads, not at stars on GitHub. So if you look at, you know, Lanchain still growing.[00:53:20] Alessio: These are the last six months. Llama Index still growing. What I've basically seen is like things that, One, obviously these things have A commercial product. So there's like people buying this and sticking with it versus kind of hopping in between things versus, you know, for example, crew AI, not really growing as much.[00:53:38] Alessio: The stars are growing. If you look on GitHub, like the stars are growing, but kind of like the usage is kind of like flat. In the last six months, have they done some[00:53:4

In this episode of the EUVC podcast, Andreas sits down with Michael McGraw, Principal at Inovia Capital, a €415M growth equity fund headquartered in Canada but making waves in Europe.Inovia has €2.3B in assets under management and a track record of backing companies like Cohere, Lightspeed, Neo4j, and Wealthsimple. Mike brings a unique perspective shaped by his journey from LP at CDPQ—one of the world's largest pension funds—to leading growth-stage investments at Inovia. Together, we'll dive deep into the evolving role of European LPs, exploring why embracing a higher risk appetite could yield outsized returns and drive systemic innovation.We'll also discuss Inovia's strategy for scaling Series B to pre-IPO companies across North America and Europe, shedding light on key challenges and opportunities in the software space. Whether you're an LP curious about market dynamics or a founder navigating growth-stage fundraising, this episode is packed with insights you won't want to miss.Go to eu.vc to read the core take-aways.Chapters:01:00 Meet Michael McGraw from Inovia01:59 Inovia's Strategy and Focus02:23 Inovia's European Expansion03:22 Success Stories and Notable Investments04:05 The Role of CDPQ and Mike's Experience04:55 Canadian vs. European VC Ecosystems07:22 CDPQ's Investment Strategy11:42 Challenges for European LPs16:49 Fundraising in Europe: Insights and Observations27:27 Firepower and Fund Allocation28:05 Late Stage Market in Europe28:28 Investment Strategies and Risk Appetite29:49 Challenges in European Venture Growth Capital 31:45 Government's Role in Venture Capital32:27 Canadian Venture Capital Action Plan34:09 Fund of Funds in Europe37:45 Mike McGrath's Background41:41 Lessons Learned in Venture Capital48:06 Fundraising Tips for VCs

I speak with Michael Hunger of neo4j about the history of graph databases and how they are finding new use cases with the current wave of generative AI tools. For show notes and an interactive transcript, visit chrischinchilla.com/podcast/To reach out and say hello, visit chrischinchilla.com/contact/To support the show for ad-free listening and extra content, visit chrischinchilla.com/support/

In this episode, Ellis discusses the importance of networking and meeting other technical communicators, especially for those who work solo or in small teams. He explores various avenues for connecting with industry peers, from conferences and meetups to virtual groups and informal gatherings. Key Topics Discussed: Challenges of Solo Technical Communicators Many technical writers in the UK work alone or in small teams, limiting opportunities for professional exchange. Conferences & Meetups Ellis mentions conferences like TCUK and Tekom and describes the more casual atmosphere of meetups, such as those organised by ISTC and Write The Docs London. London-based events like ISTC's monthly gatherings and Write The Docs London meetups, which feature speakers, presentations, and networking sessions. Benefits of Attending Events Navigating Networking for Introverts Tips on starting conversations, showing empathy, and practicing conversational balance to ease networking anxiety. Write The Docs London Event Recap Highlights from recent presentations by Neo4j's David Oliver on building a documentation team and Mark Woulfe on using dashboards to analyze documentation performance. Alternative Networking Ideas Tips for Speaking at Meetups Final Thoughts Connect with Ellis Pratt: Website: Cherryleaf.com Social Media: LinkedIn and other platforms (search "Ellis Pratt")

Speaker Resources:Neo4j+Senzing Tutorial: https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/entity-resolved-knowledge-graphs/#neo4jWhen GraphRAG Goes Bad: A Study in Why you Cannot Afford to Ignore Entity Resolution (Dr. Clair Sullivan): https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/when-graphrag-goesbad-study-why-you-cannot-afford-ignore-sullivan-7ymnc/Paco's NODES 2024 session: https://neo4j.com/nodes2024/agenda/entity-resolved-knowledge-graphs/Graph Power Hour: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9-tchmsp1WMnZKYti-tMnt_wyk4nwcbHTomaz Bratanic on GraphReader: https://towardsdatascience.com/implementing-graphreader-with-neo4j-and-langgraph-e4c73826a8b7Tools of the Month:Neo4j GraphRAG Python package:  https://pypi.org/project/neo4j-graphrag/Spring Data Neo4j: https://spring.io/projects/spring-data-neo4jEntity Linking based on Entity Resolution tutorial: https://github.com/louisguitton/spacy-lancedb-linkerhttps://github.com/DerwenAI/strwythuraAskNews (build news datasets) https://asknews.app/The Sentry https://atlas.thesentry.org/azerbaijan-aliyev-empire/Announcements / News:Articles:GraphRAG – The Card Game https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graphrag-card-game/Turn Your CSVs Into Graphs Using LLMs https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/csv-into-graph-using-llm/Detecting Bank Fraud With Neo4j: The Power of Graph Databases https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/detect-bank-fraud-neo4j-graph-database/Cypher Performance Improvements in Neo4j 5 https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/cypher-performance-neo4j-5/New GraphAcademy Course: Building Knowledge Graphs With LLMs https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/new-building-knowledge-graphs-llms/Efficiently Monitor Neo4j and Identify Problematic Queries https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/monitor-and-id-problem-queries/Videos:NODES 2023 playlist https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvUu4hzyhWed8Avu5nSUXYrb&si=8_0sYVRYz8CqqdIcEventsAll Neo4j events: https://neo4j.com/events/(Nov 5) Conference (virtual): XtremeJ https://xtremej.dev/2024/schedule/(Nov 7) Conference (virtual): NODES 2024 https://dev.neo4j.com/nodes24(Nov 8) Conference (Austin, TX, USA): MLOps World https://mlopsworld.com/(Nov 12) Conference (Baltimore, MD, USA): ISWC https://iswc2024.semanticweb.org/event/3715c6fc-e2d7-47eb-8c01-5fe4ac589a52/summary(Nov 13) Meetup (Seattle, WA, USA): Puget Sound Programming Python (PuPPY) - Talk night Rover https://www.meetup.com/psppython/events/303896335/?eventOrigin=group_events_list(Nov 14) Meetup (Seattle, WA, USA): AI Workflow Essentials (with Pinecone, Neo4J, Boundary, Union) https://lu.ma/75nv6dd3(Nov 14) Conference (Reston, VA, USA): Senzing User Conference https://senzing.com/senzing-event-calendar/(Nov 18) Meetup (Cleveland, OH, USA): Cleveland Big Data mega-meetup https://www.meetup.com/Cleveland-Hadoop/(Nov 19) Chicago Java User Group (Chicago, IL, USA): https://cjug.org/cjug-meeting-intro/#/(Dec 3) Conference (London, UK): Linkurious Days https://resources.linkurious.com/linkurious-days-london(Dec 10) Meetup (London, UK): ESR meetup in London by Neural Alpha(Dec 11-13) Conference (London, UK): Connected Data London https://2024.connected-data.london/

An airhacks.fm conversation with Dmytro Liubarsky (@langchain4j) about: discussion on recent developments in Java and LLM integration, new features in langchain4j including Easy RAG for simplified setup, SQL database retrieval with LLM-generated queries, integration with graph databases like Neo4j, Neo4j and graphrag, metadata filtering for improved search capabilities, observability improvements with listeners and potential integration with opentelemetry, increased configurability for AI services enabling state machine-like behavior, the trend towards CPU inference and smaller, more focused models, langchain4j integration with quarkus and MicroProfile, parallels between AI integration and microservices architecture, the importance of decomposing complex AI tasks into smaller, more manageable pieces, potential cost optimization strategies for AI applications, the excitement around creating smooth APIs that integrate well with the Java ecosystem, the potential future of CPU inference and its parallels with the evolution of server infrastructure, the upcoming Devoxx conference, Dmytro Liubarsky on twitter: @langchain4j

John Gilroy on LinkedIn   https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-gilroy/ Want to listen to other episodes? www.Federaltechpodcast.com History books will document the origin of the relational database at around 1970. About a decade later graph technology was introduced but it has taken decades for the cost of storage to go down and the ability to compute to go up. Finally, we can take advantage of a new way to unlock answers from a database. A typical relational database looks at information in tables. This can be fantastic for many actions, which is why it became popular. However, drilling down into information can involve re-indexing and hopping around tables. Graphing technology looks at the data and tries to find relationships. As consumers, we know if we purchase an expensive couch with a credit card, the credit card company may email and question if that is a valid purchase. Well, multiply that by hundreds of thousands of users and millions of data points. It is not just a couch; it may be automated financial transactions that involve fraud. Attend the Neo4j Graph Summit Government event on October 9th at the Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. For a human to sit down with some tables of data would make the process so time-consuming, that millions could be stolen before the culprit was discovered. During the interview, John Bender from Neo4J explains how they respect the existing data structures but can layer on a deeper understanding of the relationship between a specific transaction and an outcome. In other words, you will not have to say goodbye to your data silos. Another application is understanding the supply chain. Because so much hardware and software are outsourced, it is hard to connect the dots. John Bender refers to an Army project where they have eight million nodes and twenty-one million relationships. Listen to put into perspective new ways to improve analytical speed and reduce risk from fraud to the supply chain.

Speaker Resources:Mod: https://mod.studio/rd/grapho/Michela's NODES 2024 session: https://neo4j.com/nodes2024/agenda/spatial-graph-visualisation-and-storytelling-with-grapho-xr/NeoDash: https://neo4j.com/labs/neodash/Tools of the Month:Google Notebook LM: https://notebooklm.google/HeyGen (AI Digital Avatar): https://www.heygen.comIntelliJ IDEA (IDE for Java development) https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/Announcements / News:Articles:Querying Your Neo4j Aura Database Via HTTPS (Again) https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/query-api-neo4j-aura-https/Neo4j Python Driver 10x Faster With Rust https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/python-driver-10x-faster-with-rust/Hybrid Retrieval for GraphRAG Applications Using the Neo4j GraphRAG Package for Python https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/hybrid-retrieval-neo4j-graphrag-package/Vectors and Graphs: Better Together https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/vectors-graphs-better-together/Knowledge Graphs and LLMs: Fine-Tuning vs. Retrieval-Augmented Generation https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/fine-tuning-vs-rag/Building a Movie Recommendation System With Neo4j https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/movie-recommendation-with-neo4j/GraphRAG Field Guide: Navigating the World of Advanced RAG Patterns https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graphrag-field-guide-rag-patterns/Spreading the Savings Like Mayo: How Knowledge Graphs Can Transform Invoice Data and Lower Costs https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/spread-savings-like-mayo-knowledge-graphs/Neo4j Takes the Lead: Transforming Graph Database Management With Cypher API Versioning and Database Calendar Versioning https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/neo4j-graph-database-versioning/Modeling Data From the Titanic https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/titanic-data-modeling/Making Relations on the Titanic https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/titanic-relationships/Enhancing Hybrid Retrieval With Graph Traversal Using the Neo4j GraphRAG Package for Python https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/enhance-hybrid-retrieval-neo4j-graphrag-package/Building a GraphRAG Agent With Neo4j and Milvus https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graphrag-agent-neo4j-milvus/Videos:NODES 2023 playlist https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvUu4hzyhWed8Avu5nSUXYrb&si=8_0sYVRYz8CqqdIcEventsAll Neo4j events: https://neo4j.com/events/(Oct 1) Conference (Denver, CO, USA): Dev2next https://www.dev2next.com/(Oct 14-20) Conference (Sydney, Australia): South by Southwest Sydney https://www.sxswsydney.com/(Oct 16) Conference (London, GB, UK): GraphSummit Europe https://neo4j.com/graphsummit/europe16-17/(Oct 21-25) Conference (San Diego, CA, USA): San Diego Startup Week https://startupsd.org/san-diego-startup-week/(Oct 22) Meetup (New York City, NY, USA): NYJavaSIG https://www.meetup.com/javasig/

Adam Frankl has been VP at four Developer Tools unicorns, including JFrog, Neo4J and Sourcegraph.Adam is the author of the Developer Facing Startup and recently launched the Developer Facing Startup Founders Academy: a program that helps founders launch and grow their developer tools. In this conversation, Adam Frankl discusses the critical role of a Technical Advisory Board (TAB) in the success of developer-facing startups. He emphasizes the importance of understanding developer needs, effective interviewing techniques, and the necessity of building credibility and community. Adam outlines a structured approach to gathering insights from developers. He also highlights the significance of storytelling in marketing and the need for founders to engage deeply with their user base to discover and address their problems effectively.Takeaways:A Technical Advisory Board is essential for startup success.Founders must prioritize understanding developer needs.Effective interviews should focus on the problem, not the product.Social proof is crucial for building credibility.Developers are influenced by their peers and community.The 'Dream Sequence' outlines the developer adoption process.Storytelling is key to engaging potential users.Founders should continuously engage with their user base.Identifying key personas is vital for targeted outreach.Developers are not leads; they require a different approach.Links:Developer Facing Startup Founders Academy https://developer-facing-founders-network.mn.co/Adam Frankl's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamfrankl/The Developer Facing Startup https://www.amazon.co.uk/Developer-Facing-Startup-market-developer-facing/dp/B0D4KJNSPPKeywords:Technical Advisory Board, Developer Startups, User Research, Developer Needs, Social Proof, Community Building, Founder Responsibilities, Developer Adoption, Interview Techniques, Startup Success

Speaker Resources:Eastridge Analytics: https://www.eastridge-analytics.com/Graph Data Science with Python and Neo4j book: https://a.co/d/hkfkxPrLinkedIn profile: https://www.linkedin.com/in/timeastridge/NODES 2024 (look for more info on Tim's talk soon!): https://dev.neo4j.com/nodes24Neo4j GraphAcademy: https://graphacademy.neo4j.com/Graph Algorithms for Data Science (Tomaž Bratanic): https://a.co/d/7WhibUkTools of the Month:Jennifer: VS Code https://code.visualstudio.com/Jason: Cursor AI https://www.cursor.com/Tim: Neo4j LLM Graph Builder https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/llm-graph-builder/Announcements / News:Articles:Graph Databases Offer a Deeper Understanding of Organizational Risk https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graph-database-organizational-risk/Using Embeddings to Represent String Edit Distance in Neo4j https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/embeddings-string-edit-distance/Build a Knowledge Graph-based Agent with Llama 3.1, NVIDIA NIM, and LangChain https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/knowledge-graph-llama-nvidia-langchain/Entity Linking and Relationship Extraction With Relik in LlamaIndex https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/entity-linking-relationship-extraction-relik-llamaindex/Integrating Microsoft GraphRAG into Neo4j https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/microsoft-graphrag-neo4j/Ingesting Documents Simultaneously to Neo4j & Milvus https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/ingest-documents-neo4j-milvus/Enriching Vector Search With Graph Traversal Using the Neo4j GenAI Package https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graph-traversal-neo4j-genai-package/Create a Neo4j GraphRAG Workflow Using LangChain and LangGraph https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/neo4j-graphrag-workflow-langchain-langgraph/Introducing Concurrent Writes to Cypher Subqueries https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/concurrent-writes-cypher-subqueries/Running Neo4j on a Commodore 64 https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/neo4j-commodore-64/Change Data Capture and Neo4j Connector for Confluent and Apache Kafka Go GA https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/change-data-capture-cdc-ga/Videos:NODES 2023 playlist https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvUu4hzyhWed8Avu5nSUXYrb&si=8_0sYVRYz8CqqdIcEventsAll Neo4j events: https://neo4j.com/events/(Sep 9) Conference (San Francisco, CA, USA): Pre-AI Conference Hack Day:  https://lu.ma/bsype6t6?tk=1dgMCa(Sep 9-11) Conference (San Francisco, CA, USA): AI Conference: https://aiconference.com/(Sep 10) Meetup (San Francisco, CA, USA): AI Tools HackNight: https://lu.ma/ozt7jtq5(Sep 12) Meetup (San Jose, CA, USA): AI & Tech Talks:  https://lu.ma/jjgnoqik?tk=sMOLyE(Sep 24-26) Conference (Dallas, TX, USA): JConf https://2024.jconf.dev/(Sep 30-Oct 3) Conference (Denver, CO, USA): dev2next https://www.dev2next.com/(Oct - TBD) Meetup (Charlotte, NC, USA): Data Science Meetup https://www.meetup.com/Data-Science-Charlotte/

Today we have Stephen Chin, VP of developer relations at Neo4j on the show. Stephen is an author, speaker, and Java expert, we'll actually be crossing paths in person at the upcoming Infobip Shift conference in September. We got together to talk about GraphRAG. His CTO recently wrote an article titled The GraphRAG Manifesto, and Stephen joined us to explain how a knowledge graph can be used to improve performance over traditional RAG architectures. It also helps address some of the fundamental limitations to LLM adoption from enterprises today, like hallucinations and explainability. GraphRAG is relatively new, but looks like a very promising approach to improving performance for certain generative AI use cases, like customer support.

Philip Rathle traverses from knowledge graphs to LLMs and illustrates how loading the dice with GraphRAG enhances deterministic reasoning, explainability and agency.    Philip explains why knowledge graphs are a natural fit for capturing data about real-world systems. Starting with Kevin Bacon, he identifies many ‘graphy' problems confronting us today. Philip then describes how interconnected systems benefit from the dynamism and data network effects afforded by knowledge graphs. Next, Philip provides a primer on how Retrieval Augmented Generation (RAG) loads the dice for large language models (LLMs). He also differentiates between vector- and graph-based RAG. Along the way, we discuss the nature and locus of reasoning (or lack thereof) in LLM systems. Philip articulates the benefits of GraphRAG including deterministic reasoning, fine-grained access control and explainability. He also ruminates on graphs as a bridge to human agency as graphs can be reasoned on by both humans and machines. Lastly, Philip shares what is happening now and next in GraphRAG applications and beyond. Philip Rathle is the Chief Technology Officer (CTO) at Neo4j. Philip was a key contributor to the development of the GQL standard and recently authored The GraphRAG Manifesto: Adding Knowledge to GenAI (neo4j.com) a go-to resource for all things GraphRAG. A transcript of this episode is here. 

Speaker Resources:Ashleigh's YT Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshleighFaithTools of the Month:Abk: Any Airline using Windows 3.1

In the latest installment of our oral history project, we meet a scientist who's been supporting  deep investigative journalism projects for more than a decade. This collaboration between Neo4j and journalists helped to uncover Russian interference in the 2016 election and the Panama Papers - an investigation of one of the biggest ever global corruption scandals that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize.We Meet:Neo4j Chief Scientist Dr. Jim WebberCredits:The show is produced by Jennifer Strong and Emma Cillekens. It's mixed by Garret Lang, with original music from him and Jacob Gorski. Art by Anthony Green.

Dell Technologies has announced significant performance and connectivity enhancements to its Dell Data Lakehouse platform. These new enhancements are designed to accelerate AI initiatives and streamline data access, providing businesses with fast query speeds, expanded data sources, simplified management and powerful analytics. The key features of the Dell Data Lakehouse v1.1 includes enhance performance, improve connectivity, simplified management and expanded accessibility. Turbocharged performance New Warp Speed technology and high-performance SSDs boost query performance by 3x to 5x through automated learning of query patterns and optimising indexes and caches, allowing businesses to extract insights from data faster than ever before. Improved connectivity Dell Technologies has enhanced connectivity options by securely connecting to an existing Hive Metastore via Kerberos for seamless metadata operations and improved data governance. The new Neo4j graph database connector is now in public preview, and the Snowflake connector has been optimised for efficient querying. Additionally, upgraded connectors for Iceberg, Delta Lake, Hive, and other popular data sources ensure faster and more capable operations. Simplified Management Dell has streamlined operations with new features to ensure system robustness and security and Dell support teams can now easily assess cluster health before or after installation or upgrades, ensuring zero downtime. The system also sends critical hardware failure alerts directly to Dell Support for proactive handling. Additionally, optional end-to-end encryption for internal components is available to secure the Lakehouse. Expanded Accessibility Dell has now introduced and offers a new 5-year software subscription option, complementing the existing 1 and 3-year subscriptions, to align hardware and software support terms. To meet growing demand, the Dell Data Lakehouse is now available in more countries across Europe, Africa, and Asia. Additionally, customers can now access the Dell Data Lakehouse in the Dell Demo Center and soon in the Customer Solution Center for interactive exploration and validation. Speaking about the new updates in Dell's Modern Data Lakehouse, Vrashank Jain, Product Manager - Data Management at Dell Technologies, said, "Dell Data Lakehouse with Warp Speed sets a new benchmark in data lake analytics, empowering organisations to derive insights from their data more quickly and efficiently than ever before. Warp Speed unlocks the full potential of the Dell Data Lakehouse, paving the way for accelerated and budget-friendly innovation and growth in the AI era." To get a full, hands-on experience, visit the Dell Demo Center to interactively explore the Dell Data Lakehouse with labs developed by Dell Technologies' experts. Businesses and organisations can also contact your Dell account executive to explore the Dell Data Lakehouse for your data needs. More about Irish Tech News Irish Tech News are Ireland's No. 1 Online Tech Publication and often Ireland's No.1 Tech Podcast too. You can find hundreds of fantastic previous episodes and subscribe using whatever platform you like via our Anchor.fm page here: https://anchor.fm/irish-tech-news If you'd like to be featured in an upcoming Podcast email us at Simon@IrishTechNews.ie now to discuss. Irish Tech News have a range of services available to help promote your business. Why not drop us a line at Info@IrishTechNews.ie now to find out more about how we can help you reach our audience. You can also find and follow us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok and Snapchat.

GV, or Google Ventures, is an independent venture capital firm backed by Alphabet. Erik Norlander is a General Partner at GV and invests across enterprise software and frontier technology, focusing on developer tools, cloud infrastructure and machine learning. He has backed companies like Cockroach, Warp and Neo4j. Prior to joining GV in 2010 and opening The post Google Ventures with Erik Norlander appeared first on Software Engineering Daily.

Speaker Resources:Testcontainers https://testcontainers.com/NODES 2024 https://dev.neo4j.com/nodes24Tools of the Month:Neo4j Kubernetes documentation https://neo4j.com/docs/operations-manual/current/kubernetes/ragas framework https://ragas.io/Haiper.ai https://haiper.ai/home (Neo4j GenAI Package + DreamStudio.ai)Announcements / News:Neo4j GenAI Ecosystem Tools https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/Neo4j Knowledge Graph Builder https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/llm-graph-builder/Neoconverse (text-to-cypher) https://neo4j.com/labs/genai-ecosystem/neoconverse/LLM framework integrations: LlamaIndex, LangChain, Spring AI, Haystack, Langchain4j, Semantik Kernel, DSPy Project RunwayRepository https://github.com/a-s-g93/neo4j-runwayArticles:GenAI Starter Kit: Everything You Need to Build an Application with Spring AI in Java https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/genai-starter-kit-spring-java/Knowledge Graph vs. Vector RAG: Benchmarking, Optimization Levers, and a Financial Analysis Example https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/knowledge-graph-vs-vector-rag/From Ancient Epic to Modern Marvel: Demystifying the Mahabharata Chatbot with GraphRAG (Part 3) https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/mahabharata-epic-graph-database-3/Unleashing the Power of NLP with LlamaIndex and Neo4j https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/nlp-llamaindex-neo4j/Rags to Reqs: Making ASVS Accessible Through the Power of Graphs and Chatbots https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/asvs-security-graph-chatbot/Data Exploration With the Neo4j Runway Python Library https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/neo4j-runway-python-exploration/Easy Data Ingestion With Neo4j Runway and arrows.app https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/neo4j-runway-python-ingestion/A Tale of LLMs and Graphs: The GenAI Graph Gathering https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/genai-graph-gathering/Get Started With GraphRAG: Neo4j's Ecosystem Tools https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graphrag-ecosystem-tools/LLM Knowledge Graph Builder: From Zero to GraphRAG in Five Minutes https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/graphrag-llm-knowledge-graph-builder/A Brief History of SQL and the Rise of Graph Queries https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/gql-sql-history/Customizing Property Graph Index in LlamaIndex https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/property-graph-index-llamaindex/Graph Exploration By All MEANS With mongo2neo4j and SemSpect https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/mean-stack-mongo2neo4j-semspect/Mix and Batch: A Technique for Fast, Parallel Relationship Loading in Neo4j https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/mix-and-batch-relationship-load/Videos:NODES 2023 playlist https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvUu4hzyhWed8Avu5nSUXYrb&si=8_0sYVRYz8CqqdIcEvents:(Jul 4) Livestream (virtual): GraphAcademy Live: Cypher Fundamentals https://www.youtube.com/@neo4j/live(Jul 8) Workshop (Bengaluru, India): Neo4j and GCP Generative AI Workshop(Jul 9) GenAI + Graph Meetup (Osaka, Japan) https://jp-neo4j-usersgroup.connpass.com/event/322658/(Jul 17-19) Conference (Berlin, Germany): WeAreDevelopers World Congress 2024 https://www.wearedevelopers.com/world-congress(Jul 18) Meetup (Berlin, Germany): Ollama & Friends Coming to AI Tinkerers Berlin https://berlin.aitinkerers.org/p/ollama-friends-coming-to-ai-tinkerers-berlin(Jul 19) Meetup (Bengaluru, India): Graphing the Future: How Generative AI, RAGs and Knowledge Graphs are Shaping AI https://www.meetup.com/graph-database-bengaluru/events/301273119/?isFirstPublish=true(Jul 28-30) Conference (Sydney, Australia): Gartner Data & Analytics Summit Sydney https://neo4j.com/event/gartner-data-analytics-summit-sydney-2/(Jul 28 - Aug 2) Conference (Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin, USA): THAT Conference https://thatconference.com/activities/4AlNeqK2OogWQFdhkfuc(Jul 31) Meetup (Richmond, Virginia, USA): Connecting the future: Integrating Neo4j with GenAI, LLMs and RAGs https://www.meetup.com/graphdb-melbourne/events/301618964/?isFirstPublish=true(Jul 31) Meetup (Sydney, Australia): Decoding the Generative AI Landscape: A Deep Dive into RAGs and Graphs https://www.meetup.com/graphdb-sydney/events/301635885/?isFirstPublish=true

Philip Rathle, CTO of Neo4j, joins the podcast to discuss the rising popularity of graph-enhanced retrieval augmented generation (GraphRAG).  He also discusses the potential impact of the new GQL graph query language standard. [Link to the demo that Philip showed.]Subscribe to the Gradient Flow Newsletter:  https://gradientflow.substack.com/Subscribe: Apple • Spotify • Overcast • Pocket Casts • AntennaPod • Podcast Addict • Amazon •  RSS.Detailed show notes can be found on The Data Exchange web site.

Solomon Hykes (@solomonstre, Co-Founder @Dagger_io) talks about the evolution of the container industry, fixing broken CI/CD systems, and modern DevOps.SHOW: 829CLOUD NEWS OF THE WEEK - http://bit.ly/cloudcast-cnotwNEW TO CLOUD? CHECK OUT OUR OTHER PODCAST - "CLOUDCAST BASICS"SPONSOR:See what graphs can do for you at Neo4j.com/developerSHOW NOTES:https://dagger.io/InfoQ Article on DaggerDaggar and GPTScript for AI (video)Tech Crunch ArticleSolomon's first time on The Cloudcast - Episode #66Topic 1 - Welcome back to the show. We've spoken a number of times over the years and we've been overdue to catch up. For the few listeners out there who might not be familiar, give everyone a quick intro and your background with Docker and containers prior to Dagger.Topic 2 - Dagger has been around for a few years, coming out of stealth in 2022. If I understand Dagger correctly, it is a declarative model to abstract away CI/CD pipelines. What problem are you trying to solve?Topic 2a - Anytime you add an abstraction layer, you potentially add overhead and complexity. What are your thoughts on this?Topic 3 - Let's go back to containers quickly. How has Containers as an “industry” changed over the years? How does that relate to what you are trying to do with Dagger?Topic 3a - What lessons learned from Docker and even back to dotCloud days do you want to bring forward with Dagger?Topic 4 - What metrics are organizations using to measure the performance and success of Dagger implementations? Is it velocity (number of deployments)? Reduction in friction?Topic 4a - I get the advantage on the Dev side of DevOps, what's in it for Ops?Topic 5 - Dagger has three components, Dagger Engine, Dagger Cloud and Dagger SDK. Walk everyone through the offerings at a high level.FEEDBACK?Email: show at the cloudcast dot netTwitter: @cloudcastpodInstagram: @cloudcastpodTikTok: @cloudcastpod

Celebrating a new finalist in the Firm of The Year category at this year's European VC Awards, this episode dives deep with Beata Klein, Principal at CREANDUM.Creandum is a leading European early-stage venture capital firm backing some of Europe's most successful tech companies, including Spotify, Pleo, Kahoot, Depop, Trade Republic, Neo4j, and Factorial. Creandum has hubs in Stockholm, Berlin, London, and San Francisco.In this episode, we dive deep into Beata's article “AI in B2B SaaS: Beyond Vertical and into the Horizon(tal),” which we reproduce below together with the rest of the show notes.Go to eu.vc for our core learnings and the full video interview

Speaker Resources:Diffbot https://www.diffbot.com/Tomaz Bratanic's Medium blog: https://bratanic-tomaz.medium.com/What is DSP/DSPy? https://github.com/stanfordnlp/dspyTools of the Month:cypher-shell command line tool https://neo4j.com/docs/operations-manual/current/tools/cypher-shell/Langchain/Diffbot graph transformer https://python.langchain.com/v0.1/docs/integrations/graphs/diffbot/st-cytoscape https://github.com/vivien000/st-cytoscapeAnnouncements / News:NODES 2024 CfP resources:GraphStuff episode https://graphstuff.fm/episodes/navigating-a-technical-conference-talk-from-submission-to-deliveryNODES submission tips: https://neo4j.com/blog/nodes-talk-submission-tips/How to Submit a Technical Presentation https://jmhreif.com/blog/nodes-2024-cfp/Articles:Topic Extraction with Neo4j GDS for Better Semantic Search in RAG applications https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/topic-extraction-semantic-search-rag/Using LlamaParse to Create Knowledge Graphs from Documents https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/llamaparse-knowledge-graph-documents/Going Meta: Wrapping Up GraphRAG, Vectors, and Knowledge Graphs https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/going-meta-knowledge-graph-rag-vector/Unveiling the Mahabharata's Web: Analyzing Epic Relationships with Neo4j Graph Database (Part 1) https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/mahabharata-epic-graph-database-1/Bringing the Mahabharata Epic to Life: A Neo4j-Powered Chatbot with Google Gemini (Part 2) https://neo4j.com/developer-blog/mahabharata-epic-graph-database-2/Videos:NODES 2023 playlist https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9Hl4pk2FsvUu4hzyhWed8Avu5nSUXYrb&si=8_0sYVRYz8CqqdIcEvents:(Jun 4) Meetup (virtual): Tuesday Tech Talks: Graph Based RAG w/ Demo https://lu.ma/tys2a4zt?tk=ax2gtz(Jun 4) Workshop (virtual): Discover Neo4j Aura: The Future of Graph Database-as-a-Service https://go.neo4j.com/DE-240604-Discover-Aura-Workshop_Registration.html(Jun 5) Conference (Paris, France): GraphSummit Paris https://neo4j.com/graphsummit/paris24/(Jun 5) Workshop (Sydney, Australia): Neo4j and GCP Generative AI Workshop https://go.neo4j.com/LE240606Neo4jandGCPGenerativeAIWorkshop-Sydney_Registration.html(Jun 7) Conference (Athens, Greece): Generative AI for Front-end Developers https://athens.cityjsconf.org/talk/3b9XHj1HBahP8KJ13uWVui(Jun 10) Conference (San Francisco, California, USA): Data & AI Summit https://neo4j.com/event/data-ai-summit-2/(Jun 11) Meetup (San Francisco, California, USA): HackNight at GitHub with Graphs and Vectors https://www.meetup.com/graphdb-sf/events/301026060/?isFirstPublish=true(Jun 10) Workshop (Jakarta, Indonesia): Neo4j and GCP Generative AI Workshop https://go.neo4j.com/LE240423Neo4jandGCPGenerativeAIWorkshopJakarta_Registration.html(Jun 11) Conference (Oslo, Norway): NDC Oslo - Beyond Vectors: Evolving GenAI through Transformative Tools and Methods https://ndcoslo.com/agenda/beyond-vectors-evolving-genai-through-transformative-tools-and-methods-0x1u/011ha54g6jp(Jun 12) Conference (Munich, Germany): GraphTalk: Pharma https://go.neo4j.com/LE240612GraphTalkPharmaMunich_Registration.html(Jun 12) Conference (Frankfurt, Germany): Google Summit https://cloudonair.withgoogle.com/events/summit-mitte-2024(Jun 12) Livestream (virtual+München, Germany): LifeScience Hybrid Event 2024 https://go.neo4j.com/LE240612LifeScienceWorkshop2024_01Registration.html(Jun 12) Meetup (Brisbane, Australia): Graph Database Brisbane https://www.meetup.com/graph-database-brisbane/events/300367474/?isFirstPublish=true(Jun 12) Meetup (San Francisco, California, USA): Introduction to RAG https://lu.ma/u4uhtfqz(Jun 18) Meetup (London, UK): ISO GQL - The ISO Standard for Graph Has Arrived https://www.meetup.com/graphdb-uk/events/300712991/(Jun 20) Meetup (Stuttgart, Germany): Uniting Large Language Models and Knowledge Graphs https://neo4j.com/event/genai-breakfast-session-stuttgart-uniting-large-language-models-and-knowledge-graphs/(Jun 20) Meetup (Reston, Virginia, USA): LLMs, Vectors, Graph Databases and RAG in the Cloud https://lu.ma/mctijpjm(Jun 25) Conference (San Francisco, California, USA): AI Engineer World's Fair https://www.ai.engineer/worldsfair(Jun 26) Conference (virtual): Neo4j Connections GenAI https://neo4j.com/connections/go-from-genai-pilot-to-production-faster-with-a-knowledge-graph-june-26/(Jun 27) Conference (Kansas City, Missouri, USA): KCDC 2024 https://www.kcdc.info/(Jun 26) Conference (virtual): Neo4j Connections GenAI (Asia Pacific) https://neo4j.com/connections/go-from-genai-pilot-to-production-faster-with-a-knowledge-graph-asia-pacific-june-27/

So you've created a web app with Python using Flask, Django, FastAPI, or even Emmett. It works great on your machine. How do you get it out to the world? You'll need a production-ready web server. On this episode, we have Giovanni Barillari to tell us about his relatively-new server named Granian. It promises better performance and much better consistency than many of the more well known ones today. Episode sponsors Neo4j Talk Python Courses Links from the show New spaCy course: talkpython.fm Giovanni: @gi0baro Granian: github.com Emmett: emmett.sh Renoir: github.com Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

Jonas Rosland (@jonasrosland, Head of Open Source Community @CIQ) talks about using AI tools to accelerate building and communications in Open Source Software (OSS) communities. We also discuss the differences between Community Roles and Dev Rel.SHOW: 823SHOW TRANSCRIPT: The Cloudcast #823CLOUD NEWS OF THE WEEK - http://bit.ly/cloudcast-cnotwNEW TO CLOUD? CHECK OUT OUR OTHER PODCAST - "CLOUDCAST BASICS" SHOW SPONSOR:Neo4j explores knowledge graphs and vector search (graphstuff.fm podcast)See what graphs can do for you at Neo4j.com/developerSHOW NOTES:Jonas' session abstract from All Things Open (ATO) 2023Session slides and description of the talkHit Save! - Video Game Preservation OrganizationCIQ Enterprise Linux PlatformTopic 1 - Good Afternoon Jonas! Give everyone a quick background on your time building open-source communities and a bit about your foundation. We'll dig into both areas today.Topic 2 - We caught up at All Things Open last fall. You gave a fascinating talk on using AI tools to accelerate the building of OSS communities. Give everyone the backstory on how that topic and presentation came to be.Topic 3 - This may be a dumb question, but DevRel is (still) all the rage. What is the difference between the approach to building OSS communities and the straight-up DevRel teams? How is success tracked in each? Are there solid metrics, or is it “fuzzy”?Topic 4 - Sadly, as far as I can tell, the session wasn't recorded. But, for me, the big takeaway was how much dabbling you were doing with the tools and your good and bad experiences. I learned a lot from a practical aspect. But, the AI industry and tools are moving so fast. What's in your toolbox today and why?Topic 5 - What are some of the gaps in the tools today? What's missing?Topic 6 -  Let's talk about your side gig. You were part of the founding team and are exec director of a video game preservation society, Hit Save! How did that come to be? What does that entail?FEEDBACK?Email: show at the cloudcast dot netTwitter: @cloudcastpodInstagram: @cloudcastpodTikTok: @cloudcastpod

SummaryIn this Startup Business Podcast, learn how to scale a $100 million ARR SaaS company using strategies like founder-led sales and b2b vs b2c saas models. Expert insights from leaders in the industry!This podcast episode also dives a packed with valuable insights for founders starting their entrepreneurial journey. Mudassir sits down with Kevin Van Gundy, a seasoned tech industry veteran with experience at Neo4j, Trey, and Vercel. Uncover strategies for crafting winning pricing models. Understand the importance of segmentation, catering to different customer needs, and the potential of enterprise packages. Keep it simple and focus on clarity for easy customer understanding.Takeaways1Leadership and mentorship play a crucial role in personal and professional growth.2. Startups go through different phases, and it's important to adapt and learn from each stage.3. SaaS pricing requires iteration and flexibility, and it's important to prioritize goals and understand the market. Differentiate your pricing models based on the needs and buying motions of different customer segments.4. Consider offering enterprise packages for B2B products to cater to larger companies and drive higher average contract values.5. Simplify your pricing model to make it intuitive and easy for customers to understand and forecast costs.6. Product-led growth and sales-led growth are both valuable approaches, and the choice depends on the nature of your product and target market.7. Scale is not just about revenue growth; it involves managing complexity in various aspects of the business.8. When building a go-to-market strategy, founders should be willing to engage in founder-led sales to gain valuable experience and build important communication and leadership skills.9. B2C SaaS is more challenging than B2B SaaS due to the randomness and unpredictability of the market.Chapters00:00 Trailer02:07 Sponsored03:20 Kevin Van Gundy's Journey in the Tech Industry09:40 Lessons Learned from Neo4j, Trey, and Vercel21:30 Differentiating Pricing Models29:40 B2B Products and Enterprise Packages32:40 The Complexity of Pricing38:45 What to Include and Exclude in Pricing47:00 Understanding Scale51:10 Building a Go-To-Market Strategy56:00 The Challenge of B2C vs. B2B SaaS59:45 Maintaining Culture as a Company Scales01:05:00 The Blueprint for Starting a B2B SaaS Business01:16:11 Ritual01:18:12 ConclusionConnect with Mudassir

This episode dives into some of the most important data science libraries from the Python space with one of its pioneers: Wes McKinney. He's the creator or co-creator of pandas, Apache Arrow, and Ibis projects and an entrepreneur in this space. Episode sponsors Neo4j Mailtrap Talk Python Courses Links from the show Wes' Website: wesmckinney.com Pandas: pandas.pydata.org Apache Arrow: arrow.apache.org Ibis: ibis-project.org Python for Data Analysis - Groupby Summary: wesmckinney.com/book Polars: pola.rs Dask: dask.org Sqlglot: sqlglot.com Pandoc: pandoc.org Quarto: quarto.org Evidence framework: evidence.dev pyscript: pyscript.net duckdb: duckdb.org Jupyterlite: jupyter.org Djangonauts: djangonaut.space Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

Mark Collier (Chief Operating Officer @ OpenInfra Foundation) talks about the advantages of open source AI and the intersection of OSS and AI transparency, safety, and potential regulations.SHOW: 821CLOUD NEWS OF THE WEEK - http://bit.ly/cloudcast-cnotwNEW TO CLOUD? CHECK OUT OUR OTHER PODCAST - "CLOUDCAST BASICS"SPONSOR:See what graphs can do for you at Neo4j.com/developerSHOW NOTES:Mark's Talk at ATOEU AI Act PassesHow Tech Giants Cut Corners Harvest DataThe EU Guide Act - A Guide for DevelopersOpenInfra FoundationTopic 1 - Our topic for today is AI Safety and Regulation. I saw our guest speak at All Things Open here in Raleigh late last year and he is also a Cloudcast alumnus having been on the show previously talking about OpenStack and the OpenInfra Foundation. We'd like to welcome Mark Collier (Chief Operating Officer @ OpenInfra Foundation) for this discussion. Mark, welcome to the show.Topic 2 - There's a lot of news today about AI safety and regulation. The industry also seems to be caught up in an AI arms race of who has the bigger model, faster model, etc. OpenAI have become the early category leader but they might have started with good intentions, but, contrary to their name, they aren't open… at all.  One message in your talk is how open-source software will prevent the coming of the “AI overlords”. Tell everyone a bit of what you mean by this. What is the problem we are facing and many may not even realize it.Topic 3 - I don't want to call you old (I think we are about the same age), but you've seen some things. You've also been around OSS and foundations for a bit now. How can open source solve the problem?Topic 4 - We hear a lot about AI regulation, but this seems to be a moving target. What is both the current and future state of AI regulation? In my opinion, we haven't seen a lot of successful regulations to date. We saw recently the EU pass an AI Act. Is this the first of many? The start of a trend?Topic 5 - Let's talk about the “day job”. What's new with OpenInfra Foundation these days?Topic 6 -  OpenStack releases are still going strong and you've even run out of letters on OpenStack releases and have rolled around on the alphabet and are back to C. This is the 29th release of OpenStack. What's the news for the Caracal release?FEEDBACK?Email: show at the cloudcast dot netTwitter: @cloudcastpodInstagram: @cloudcastpodTikTok: @cloudcastpod

Do you use Python in an academic setting? Maybe you run a research lab or teach courses using Python. Maybe you're even a student using Python. Whichever it is, you'll find a ton of great advice in this episode. I talk with Keiland Cooper about how he is using Python at his neuroscience lab at the University of California, Irvine. Episode sponsors Neo4j Posit Talk Python Courses Links from the show Keiland's website: kwcooper.xyz Keiland on Twitter: @kw_cooper Keiland on Mastodon: @kwcooper@fediscience.org Journal of Open Source Software: joss.readthedocs.io Avalanche project: avalanche.continualai.org ContinualAI: continualai.org Executable Books Project: executablebooks.org eLife Journal: elifesciences.org Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

After today's episode, your resumé is going to get better! In this episode I will share the biggest mistake and the best advice I've ever received about building a great resumé. This will take some work from you, but I hope you walk away from this episode feeling like you have the right mindset to improve your resumé drastically, and land more interviews, ultimately leading to better job opportunities for the Developer Tea audience!

Do you know what custom GPTs are? They're configurable and shareable chat experiences with a name, logo, custom instructions, conversation starters, access to OpenAI tools, and custom API actions. And, you can build them with Python! Ian Maurer has been doing just that and is here to share his experience building them. Episode sponsors Sentry Error Monitoring, Code TALKPYTHON Neo4j Talk Python Courses Links from the show Ian on Twitter: @imaurer Mobile Navigation: openai.com What is a Custom GPT?: imaurer.com Mobile Navigation: openai.com FuzzTypes: Pydantic library for auto-correcting types: github.com pypi-gpt: github.com marvin: github.com instructor: github.com outlines: github.com llamafile: github.com llama-cpp-python: github.com LLM Dataset: llm.datasette.io Plugin directory: llm.datasette.io Data exploration at your fingertips.: visidata.org hottest new programming language is English: twitter.com OpenAI & other LLM API Pricing Calculator: docsbot.ai Vector DB Comparison: vdbs.superlinked.com bpytop: github.com Source Graph: about.sourcegraph.com Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

Summary Databases come in a variety of formats for different use cases. The default association with the term "database" is relational engines, but non-relational engines are also used quite widely. In this episode Oren Eini, CEO and creator of RavenDB, explores the nuances of relational vs. non-relational engines, and the strategies for designing a non-relational database. Announcements Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data management This episode is brought to you by Datafold – a testing automation platform for data engineers that prevents data quality issues from entering every part of your data workflow, from migration to dbt deployment. Datafold has recently launched data replication testing, providing ongoing validation for source-to-target replication. Leverage Datafold's fast cross-database data diffing and Monitoring to test your replication pipelines automatically and continuously. Validate consistency between source and target at any scale, and receive alerts about any discrepancies. Learn more about Datafold by visiting dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold (https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold). Dagster offers a new approach to building and running data platforms and data pipelines. It is an open-source, cloud-native orchestrator for the whole development lifecycle, with integrated lineage and observability, a declarative programming model, and best-in-class testability. Your team can get up and running in minutes thanks to Dagster Cloud, an enterprise-class hosted solution that offers serverless and hybrid deployments, enhanced security, and on-demand ephemeral test deployments. Go to dataengineeringpodcast.com/dagster (https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com/dagster) today to get started. Your first 30 days are free! Data lakes are notoriously complex. For data engineers who battle to build and scale high quality data workflows on the data lake, Starburst powers petabyte-scale SQL analytics fast, at a fraction of the cost of traditional methods, so that you can meet all your data needs ranging from AI to data applications to complete analytics. Trusted by teams of all sizes, including Comcast and Doordash, Starburst is a data lake analytics platform that delivers the adaptability and flexibility a lakehouse ecosystem promises. And Starburst does all of this on an open architecture with first-class support for Apache Iceberg, Delta Lake and Hudi, so you always maintain ownership of your data. Want to see Starburst in action? Go to dataengineeringpodcast.com/starburst (https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com/starburst) and get $500 in credits to try Starburst Galaxy today, the easiest and fastest way to get started using Trino. Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Oren Eini about the work of designing and building a NoSQL database engine Interview Introduction How did you get involved in the area of data management? Can you describe what constitutes a NoSQL database? How have the requirements and applications of NoSQL engines changed since they first became popular ~15 years ago? What are the factors that convince teams to use a NoSQL vs. SQL database? NoSQL is a generalized term that encompasses a number of different data models. How does the underlying representation (e.g. document, K/V, graph) change that calculus? How have the evolution in data formats (e.g. N-dimensional vectors, point clouds, etc.) changed the landscape for NoSQL engines? When designing and building a database, what are the initial set of questions that need to be answered? How many "core capabilities" can you reasonably design around before they conflict with each other? How have you approached the evolution of RavenDB as you add new capabilities and mature the project? What are some of the early decisions that had to be unwound to enable new capabilities? If you were to start from scratch today, what database would you build? What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen RavenDB/NoSQL databases used? What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on RavenDB? When is a NoSQL database/RavenDB the wrong choice? What do you have planned for the future of RavenDB? Contact Info Blog (https://ayende.com/blog/) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ravendb/?originalSubdomain=il) Parting Question From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today? Closing Announcements Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. Podcast.__init__ (https://www.pythonpodcast.com) covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The Machine Learning Podcast (https://www.themachinelearningpodcast.com) helps you go from idea to production with machine learning. Visit the site (https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com) to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes. If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email hosts@dataengineeringpodcast.com (mailto:hosts@dataengineeringpodcast.com)) with your story. Links RavenDB (https://ravendb.net/) RSS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS) Object Relational Mapper (ORM) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object%E2%80%93relational_mapping) Relational Database (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_database) NoSQL (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NoSQL) CouchDB (https://couchdb.apache.org/) Navigational Database (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigational_database) MongoDB (https://www.mongodb.com/) Redis (https://redis.io/) Neo4J (https://neo4j.com/) Cassandra (https://cassandra.apache.org/_/index.html) Column-Family (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Column_family) SQLite (https://www.sqlite.org/) LevelDB (https://github.com/google/leveldb) Firebird DB (https://firebirdsql.org/) fsync (https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/fsync.2.html) Esent DB? (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/extensible-storage-engine/extensible-storage-engine-managed-reference) KNN == K-Nearest Neighbors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-nearest_neighbors_algorithm) RocksDB (https://rocksdb.org/) C# Language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_(programming_language)) ASP.NET (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASP.NET) QUIC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QUIC) Dynamo Paper (https://www.allthingsdistributed.com/files/amazon-dynamo-sosp2007.pdf) Database Internals (https://amzn.to/49A5wjF) book (affiliate link) Designing Data Intensive Applications (https://amzn.to/3JgCZFh) book (affiliate link) The intro and outro music is from The Hug (http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/Love_death_and_a_drunken_monkey/04_-_The_Hug) by The Freak Fandango Orchestra (http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/) / CC BY-SA (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/)

In this episode we are revisiting some of my own personal core principles of working. I'm sharing these with you for you to do whatever you want with them, so please share however you can!The principles we discuss today are around the relationship between clarity and focus, and about how most negotiations aren't about feasibility but instead about strategy.

Have you ever been wait around for pip to do its thing while installing packages or syncing a virtual environment or through some higher level tool such as pip-tools? Then you'll be very excited to hear about the tool just announced from Astral called uv. It's like pip, but 100x faster. Charlie Marsh from Ruff fame and founder of Astral is here to dive in. Let's go. Episode sponsors Neo4j Talk Python Courses Links from the show Charlie Marsh on Twitter: @charliermarsh Charlie Marsh on Mastodon: @charliermarsh Astral: astral.sh uv: github.com Ruff: github.com Ruff Rules: docs.astral.sh When "Everything" Becomes Too Much: The npm Package Chaos of 2024: socket.dev Talk Python's free Audio AI Course: training.talkpython.fm Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

In this episode we continue our discussion about the most overused statistical measurement. We'll talk about a few more counterintuitive properties of the average, and how you might be underserving your colleagues as a result of thinking in averages.

Are you interested in contributing to Django? Then there is an amazing mentorship program that helps Python and Django enthusiasts, because contributes and potentially core developers of Django. It's called Djangonauts and their slogan is "where contributors launch." On this episode, we have Sarah Boyce from the Django team and former Djangonaut and now Djangonaut mentor, Tushar Gupta. Not only is this excellent for the Django community, many of other open source communities would do well to keep an eye on how this creative project is working. Episode sponsors Neo4j Posit Talk Python Courses Links from the show Sarah on Mastodon: @sarahboyce@mastodon.social Sarah on LinkedIn: linkedin.com Tushar on Twitter: @tushar5526 Djangonaut Space on Mastodon: @djangonaut@indieweb.social Djangonaut Space on Twitter: @djangonautspace Djangonaut Space on LinkedIn: linkedin.com Website: djangonaut.space Djangonaut Space Launch Video: youtube.com Sessions: djangonaut.space Djangonaut Space Interest Form: google.com/forms Program: github.com Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

You've built an awesome set of APIs and you have a wide array of devices and clients using them. Then you need to upgrade an end point or change them in a meaningful way. Now what? That's the conversation I dive into over the next hour with Stanislav Zmiev. We're talking about Versioning APIs. Episode sponsors Neo4j Sentry Error Monitoring, Code TALKPYTHON Talk Python Courses Links from the show Stanislav Zmiev: github.com Monite: monite.com Cadwyn: github.com Stripe API Versioning: stripe.com API Versioning NOtes: github.com FastAPI-Versioning: github.com Flask-Rebar: readthedocs.io Django Rest Framework Versioning: django-rest-framework.org pytest-fixture-classes: github.com Watch this episode on YouTube: youtube.com Episode transcripts: talkpython.fm --- Stay in touch with us --- Subscribe to us on YouTube: youtube.com Follow Talk Python on Mastodon: talkpython Follow Michael on Mastodon: mkennedy

In today's episode, we do a journaling exercise to provide a new lens on developing your own career roadmap.We're going to practice the power of hindsight, finding our wiser selves, and ultimately looking forward and backward...at the same time. It sounds a little odd, but it's all based in solid cognitive science. If you have a notoriously hard time figuring out your career path, I'd invite you to participate!

Christian Hecker is the Founder and CEO of Trade Republic, the company making it easy and inexpensive for everyone with a smartphone to invest. To date, Christian has raised over $1.3BN for the company from the likes of Sequoia, Founders Fund, Accel and Creandum to name a few. Previously, Christian worked in Bank of America Merrill Lynch's Investment Banking department. Johan Brenner is a General Partner at Creandum. Johan has led Creandum's investments in iZettle (acquired by PayPal for $2.2bn in 2018), Trade Republic, Klarna, Pleo, Neo4J, Vivino and more. Johan was previously a repeat entrepreneur, founding one of the first online brokers in Europe in 1997 (sold to E*TRADE in the US), then JobLine (sold to Monster), Bookatable (Michelin) and Tradera (Ebay). In Today's Episode with Christian Hecker and Johan Brenner We Discuss: 1. Selling 75% of Trade Republic for €600,000: How did Christian come to sell 75% of Trade Republic for €600K? How did Johan and Creandum solve this challenge when they invested? What are some of Christian's biggest pieces of advice on cap table construction? 2. Raising $1.3BN From the Best Investors in the World: What are Christian's biggest fundraising lessons from raising $1.3BN from the best in the world? How did Doug Leone and Sequoia come to lead Trade Republic's round? What was the meeting with Doug like? What questions did he ask? How did it go? How important of a skill does Johan believe being a great fundraiser is for founders? 3. Scaling into Europe's Next Decacorn: What are the single biggest issues that arise when scaling so fast? What breaks first? Does CAC increase with time or decrease? Why did Christian decide to stop paid marketing on Google and Facebook and stop spending $100M+ there overnight? Why is Christian so bullish on influencer marketing? What works? What does not work? 4. Europe: A Hub for Innovation or a Retirement Home: Does Christian believe that young people in Europe work hard enough? What are the biggest challenges to scaling teams in Europe? Why does Johan believe the biggest challenge in Europe is the lack of exit markets? What can Europe do to improve and increase our chances of being successful?