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Catherine Ingram joins Tahnee on the podcast today. Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher and former journalist specialising in empathy and activism. Catherine is the author of several books including; In the Footsteps of Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything, and the long-form essay “Facing Extinction.” Catherine has published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the 1980s and early 1990s with leading thinkers and activists of our time. Catherine and Tahnee take a deep dive today, sharing a beautiful conversation around the philosophical landscape of activism, empathy, Buddhism, dharma practice, mindfulness and sensitivity. Tahnee and Catherine explore: The mindfulness industry and how it is often misguided. The 1970's Dharma movement. Catherine's experience of Buddhist meditation and philosophy. The nature and burden of sensitivity - "if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention" - Catherine Ingram The relationship between grief and love. Activism, empathy and compassion. The themes of Catherine's essay; Facing Extinction. The Resilient Byron project.   Who is Catherine Ingram? Catherine Ingram is an international dharma teacher with communities in the U.S., Europe, and Australia. Since 1992 Catherine has led Dharma Dialogues, which are public events that encourage the intelligent use of awareness within one’s personal life and in one’s community. Catherine leads numerous silent retreats each year in conjunction with Dharma Dialogues. Catherine is president of Living Dharma, an educational non-profit organisation founded in 1995. Catherine has been the subject of numerous print, television, and radio interviews and is included in several anthologies about teachers in the West. A former journalist specialising in issues of consciousness and activism, Catherine is the author of two books of nonfiction, which are published in numerous languages: In the Footsteps of Gandhi: Conversations with Spiritual/Social Activists (Parallax Press, 1990) and Passionate Presence: Seven Qualities of Awakened Awareness (Penguin Putnam, 2003); and one novel, A Crack in Everything (Diamond Books, 2006). In February 2019, Catherine published the long-form essay “Facing Extinction” as a free link, an essay she updates every month as new data emerges about the crises we face. Over a fifteen-year period beginning in 1982, Catherine published approximately 100 articles on empathic activism and served on the editorial staffs of New Age Journal, East West Journal, and Yoga Journal. For four years Catherine also wrote the Life Advice column for Alternatives Magazine based in Oregon. Since 1976, Catherine has helped organise and direct institutions dedicated to meditation and self-inquiry and, more recently, human and animal rights. Catherine is a co-founder of Insight Meditation Society in Barre, Massachusetts (1976). Catherine also co-founded the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization (UNPO) in The Hague, Netherlands (1991) and is a member of the Committee of 100 for Tibet. For six years (1988-1994), Catherine served as a board director for The Burma Project, dedicated to raising international awareness about the struggle for democracy in Burma. Catherine is currently serving on the board of Global Animal Foundation, which works on behalf of the world’s animals.   Resources:Catherine's Website Catherine Facing Extinction Essay In The Deep Podcast Coronavirus: Courage and Calm PodcastCatherine's Books The Resilient Byron Project   Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify!   Check Out The Transcript Here:   Tahnee: (00:01) Hi everybody and welcome to the SuperFeast podcast. Today I'm really excited to have Catherine Ingram here. She's the author of several books. Footsteps to Gandhi, Passionate Presence, A Crack in Everything and this incredible essay called Facing Extinction that you can find online. We'll link to it in the show notes. Catherine's an amazing former journalist as well so she's spoken to so many wonderful people and it seems to be this real emphasis on compassion and humanity and activism and empathy. And I know she's published over 100 articles and interviews throughout the '80s and '90s. I don't know if those are all available online, Catherine, but maybe people can have a little dig. Since '92, Catherine has been leading international retreats and public sessions known as Dharma Dialogues. I've been fortunate to go to some of those in Lennox and in Byron Bay. They're just really beautiful ways to check in and connect to this deeper meaning and purpose of life and our own inner compass toward well being. Our passions and all those kinds of things. She's also served on the board of numerous human rights organisations, as a board member of Global Animal and also is part of a newly founded organisation called Resilient Byron, which I'm excited to talk to her about today.   Tahnee: (01:19) Catherine, so busy. I know you're going to be doing some Dharma Dialogues online digitally, which is really exciting as well. Thanks so much for being here today. We're really excited.   Catherine Ingram: (01:32) Thank you for inviting me.   Tahnee: (01:33) So we've been touching on a lot of big themes lately on the podcast, which I think this time obviously takes us all deeper into ourselves for sure. I know that a lot of your work has focused on these big themes. Has that been something that you've been interested in forever or were you more drawn into these things over time? Can you give us a little sense of how Catherine becomes Catherine?   Catherine Ingram: (02:01) Well I fell into the study of Buddhist meditation from a pretty young age. I started doing retreats, attending retreats in 1974 and it became basically my world. I helped found a big centre in Massachusetts called Insight Meditation Society, which is one of the famous mindfulness centres in the world. But at the time, we were just this ragtag band of hippies. It was a very small scene in those days. Really small. We all knew each other, everywhere. I know a lot of the very famous mindfulness teachers, the older ones. They're old friends. I was in that study and in that practise and in that organisation for 17 years until about '91. Along the way, I became interested in how does a mindful life or an empathic life or a life based on loving kindness, how does it show up for anybody else? It's all well and good that we're all having a fine time but how does it matter in the world?   Catherine Ingram: (03:11) That became a focus for me in journalism. I decided to become a journalist in order to have access to what I considered the people who could be my teachers, my mentors in that new field of study, that is activism with a consciousness or empathic base. I thought to myself, why would any of those people want to talk with me or hang out with me? And I thought, well they would if I were a journalist and if I could publish their words. So I became a journalist, I kind of backed into it with a side motivation, which was, I wanted access [inaudible 00:03:50] I wanted to study with.. And that's what it gave me. So for the next 12 years, I focused entirely on that. I published, as you mentioned, many, many articles in the days... It was pre-Internet [inaudible 00:04:05] available, a few of them we did manage to scan and put online. I did that for all those years writing for print magazines and then I began having sessions myself, having meditative, initially dialogue-based meditation sessions. In other words, part of it would be silent but also it would be a dialogue format to keep people on a certain frequency, and in conjunction with silent retreats that I led all over the world. Well not in Russia. Not in Africa.   Tahnee: (04:52) Not in every single country on the planet.   Catherine Ingram: (04:56) Not every country. Not even every continent but I did that and still do, although we're in lockdown at the moment. Yeah, I've been focused on these matters, the confluence of activism and empathic action that has a dedication to the greater good. It's always been important to me. I remember long ago, I heard a Tibetan teacher talk about the two wings of the bird. One is wisdom and one is compassion and that it can fall off... I'm sorry, no, that got... That's how a bird flies. But I've heard other teachers talk about wisdom and compassion being like two different types of temperament and I've always thought, how can there be wisdom without compassion? It doesn't make sense. How can there be any kind of wisdom that doesn't include compassion? Since I was quite young in my career, I've always wanted the understanding that your awareness includes and is expansive. I'm a bit allergic to systems of thought and philosophy that are very self motivated. Self improvement, self wellbeing.   Tahnee: (06:33) You must love Instagram. Just kidding.   Catherine Ingram: (06:36) I don't use Instagram and I'm also [inaudible 00:06:38] social media in general, though I'm forced to a little tiny bit because we have to-   Tahnee: (06:44) Necessarily evil unfortunately.   Catherine Ingram: (06:46) Exactly, yeah. That's why I don't have an Instagram account.   Tahnee: (06:51) Could I just quickly... I just want to grab on that because this is honestly my biggest bugbear with how even mindfulness and all of these things have been taken and turned into almost competitions or ways of making yourself better than somebody else.   Catherine Ingram: (07:07) It's so co-opted and it's gotten corporate. I mean the Buddha would roll over in his grave if he had one. Yeah, it's really devolved over the years, I have to say. It's kind of tagged onto everything you can think of. It's very, very different than what I knew it to be back in the day. I studied with a lot of the older Asian teachers who've all since died. It was a very monastic scene back in those days but now it's a very different animal. I have to say though, there are other ways of understanding presence and how to use your attention and in those ways of understanding and of deep immersion, it would be anathema to your spirit to co-opt that understanding and use it for any kind of mercenary production. I think that there are ways to understand a dharmic life and to live a dharmic life and, as I say, use your mind and your heart in ways that in at least the original Buddhist teachings and language, it would be totally commensurate with all of that.   Tahnee: (08:53) So I mean, how do you get to Buddhism? I mean, I don't know exactly how old you are but I assume it wasn't readily available to study Buddhist practice. No.   Catherine Ingram: (09:09) Very obscure in those days. What happened though was this Tibetan teacher named Trungpa Rinpoche came along and he had been living in the UK. He was an exile from Tibet. He'd been living in the UK and he was a very hip... He was young and he was extremely hip and very interested in Western culture and in Western arts and all kinds of arts and he founded something called Naropa Institute in Boulder, Colorado in 1974 and he gathered there, all of the biggest named teachers of the day. Now they were still obscure and they had relatively small scenes, each one individually, like Ram Dass and all these people. Even though eventually that became a much larger scene, it wasn't at the time, and some of the big name Buddhist teachers who were unknown, totally unknown in those days, they were invited. He managed through his scene, his students, to get hold of all these people and gather them in this one spot to found this Buddhist university called Naropa Institute and I heard about it and I went. I decided to attend and I was 22 years old and I was in Europe. I was actually going to India, I thought. I was in Europe travelling around on my way to India.   Catherine Ingram: (10:38) I didn't know what I was doing exactly. I wanted to go find a teacher in India but I heard about Naropa and I thought, all these teachers are going to be right there in one place in my own country. I should go there. It's a long, long story. That story alone of being there that summer, in the midst of all of that. Like imagine, I used to-   Tahnee: (11:00) Be wild.   Catherine Ingram: (11:02) I use this way of describing it. Imagine like a Burning Man but that was only about Dharma and only about philosophy and only about these deeper arts. That's what it felt like for a whole entire summer. 10 weeks. That was a real turning point because there I met my whole community and I fell into a particular strain of the... There were so many different types of teachings there. They weren't all Buddhist. There were just a few of the Buddhists. There was [inaudible 00:11:34], the Tibetan Buddhists, the Zen Buddhist and then this tiny little scene led by Joseph Goldstein. He had a class, a tiny, little, dinky class called the essential Buddhism. Hardly anyone came but I walked into his class and I just felt at home. He was my teacher and also later on, my boyfriend. So that's how I began Buddhist practise. I became incredibly immersed in those teachings, especially I heard the first noble truth, the truth of suffering, the truth of the unsatisfactoriness of existence and I just thought, sign me up. I get it. Anyway, that was my world for a long time. I basically just went from retreat to retreat. I was one of the managers of the retreats. I helped found the centre, as I said, that we did in 1976.   Catherine Ingram: (12:44) I went to Asia. I finally did go to Asia after that first attempt. I went overland from Italy to India in a time when you could still do that and I was gone for... We were all over Southeast Asia studying in different temples with different of our teachers. I did that for a year. I went back many, many times to India. I went to India 10 times over the next 20 years. It was a whole... What to say, you could write a book on just that. Or I could, I guess.   Tahnee: (13:24) Well I think that's the dream. I know in this area. There's so many young people looking for that authentic, and I'm using air quotes but the authentic experience, which I mean really that generation of yours was, there were so many socio political and cultural reasons that those experiences were able to be had.   Catherine Ingram: (13:47) We were in a moment in history where our music was all about that. It was a whole, it was a zeitgeist that was happening among the counter culture but it wasn't as huge as people think. Certainly not the dharma slice of it but what was called the psychedelic generation, it wasn't as ubiquitous as people think but it was powerful and we all knew each other and hung out with each other. It was a really great, great time and then I fell into having my own sessions, as I said, and that's been really wonderfully rich. Just the intimacy of that and sharing a dharma life with people and having those kinds of conversations, I feel so privileged because I feel like I have of what you might call deathbed conversations but they're not on the deathbed, although sometimes. It's basically... Well the name of my podcast channel is In The Deep.   Tahnee: (14:57) You go there.   Catherine Ingram: (15:01) It just feels like you can stay on a certain channel of a shared frequency that is in the deep. I find that's, for me, the most satisfying kinds of conversation.   Tahnee: (15:19) Have you found it hard to integrate... Again, I'm using air quotes, a real life with that kind of desire for that deep connection? I've heard you speak in Dharma Dialogue that your family were not... They were quite conservative, I think, if I'm remembering correctly. Have you found it difficult to connect back to your lineage and to the real world? Because you do inhabit this space that is not... There's a dearth of this kind of communication in our culture. People don't want deep. They want instant news and 24 hour Fox.   Catherine Ingram: (15:57) That is why I always sought out the quieter places, the quieter minds, you could say. Those kinds of conversations and the power of sangha, of the dharmic community. I've always gravitated to that kind of crowd. In the work that I do, by definition, that's the kind of conversation... What I do is called Dharma Dialogues and so I have certainly my fair share of that kind of interaction and I spend a lot of time alone in quiet. I live a very retreat-like life. When I do have conversation, it tends to be about the deeper matters. It's not that we always have to be philosophical or anything. I mean, I'm happy to talk about the latest drama that we all might be watching. I enjoy that tremendously but because I don't have a lot of chit chat possibility in my life really, because I live alone, and my work is about this in the deep conversation, the conversations I do have tended to be in the nature such as the one we are having now, about what matters and what are the priorities and how does one live? What structure of life in your creative expression do you want to offer? That's been a very fortunate component.   Catherine Ingram: (17:50) Regarding my family and of course other people in our lives that we may not be on the same page with, I've learned over the many years to just find points of connection that we do connect on. They can be very ordinary things and that's fine. I love ordinary also. I frame it and I spoke about it in my book Passionate Presence, as finding the language of the heart that you can intuit, you can sense, especially if you're quiet inside, you can sense the language that someone might be able to hear and you try to stay on those topics. Just as you do instinctively, as we all do instinctively when, say, we're with a child and whether it's a five year old child or a 10 year old child, you adjust your language a bit, or someone who you sense is highly intelligent but is speaking... English is their second language and they're not super fluent in it so you adjust. Instinctively you adjust how you're speaking so that they'll understand all your words.   Catherine Ingram: (19:15) It's like that. You just have a radar that is sensing. The whole purpose of the conversation is to meet in the heart. It's not to just impose your great opinions.   Tahnee: (19:35) That really makes me think because so many people are like, they need to change, the world needs to change and so often, it's us, sadly that needs to change.   Catherine Ingram: (19:48) [inaudible 00:19:48] though, that way.   Tahnee: (19:52) I mean I think about my own family and I remember reading a Ram Dass book and he was talking about coming home from India to see his father and he had to stand side by side with his father and all he wanted to do was tell him all these truths and what he learned and his dad just needed him to stand there and help him make a pie or whatever and he said, "All I could do was just love him," and in that his dad softened and changed and they found commonality. I think so often we come to each other with our agenda.   Catherine Ingram: (20:23) Yeah, Ram Dass used to tell another story, which was that a woman wrote to him and said, "I'm about to go home for Christmas and I don't get along with my family that well and I know that they judge me about what I'm doing and they think I'm weird." Anyway, I don't know what he said to her but anyway, she went off to her family holiday and when she got back she wrote Ram Dass a letter and said, "My family hates me when I'm a Buddhist but they love me while I'm a Buddha."   Tahnee: (20:52) That's so beautiful. Isn't that the truth? I remember hearing you speak that you've almost stepped away from Buddhism and that whole scene in a way because it was that identification with... Maybe I'm misunderstanding what I-   Catherine Ingram: (21:10) No, I did step away from it completely. I'm so happy for that training and for those years and for the wonderful friendships. It was a whole evolutionary phase of my life but I wouldn't at all call myself a Buddhist. I don't have any kind of... There was a guy in the States, his name was Abbie Hoffman, he was a great activist back in my era. He died a long time ago. Kind of young when he died but he was a very famous radical activist in the '60s and he had a great line, "All of the isms are wasms," which I really related to. I don't have any isms that I'm adhering to. I have come to realise that Gandhi, the story of his... I'm sorry. His autobiography is called The Story Of My Experiments with Truth, and I feel that I've just been making my own experiments with truth and I don't claim as true with a capital T. I would say it's my experiments with truth, my experiments of what has made sense to me, what works, what has been consistently true for me in my experimentation about what is...   Catherine Ingram: (22:29) Like we've been saying, what is the way through? What is the dharmic line, thread of harmony through this rocky road called life? That's been, for me, I have been exposed to so many kinds of teachings, beautiful teachings over the years. Whether in literature, I love great literature... I mean, you can have profound experiences just by reading some of the great works of literature, and movies too. Movies have shaped my consciousness.   Tahnee: (23:09) Art, right? It's every... Humans have created that to tell stories since-   Catherine Ingram: (23:15) That's right.   Tahnee: (23:17) Yes, there's the vortex of, some of it is commercial and corporate and manipulative but I think so much of it is truth. Like you say, little 't' truths. Someone trying to capture what's true for them through their art form.   Catherine Ingram: (23:33) Yeah and what's so beautiful about all of that, and music, my goodness, music... What's so amazing about that is that's like our humanity is so... It's so sensitive and so universal in each of us. I mean it is why music translates to everybody, pretty much, that sometimes someone comes along and just in their own innocent, true expression, taps a chord that just reverberates through not only their own time but down through the ages. I'm always listening for those chords, however I can find them, whether in dharma circles and great works of philosophy and teachings from all different traditions but also in all these art forms and also just in-   Tahnee: (24:39) Life.   Catherine Ingram: (24:39) No, I mean in watching animals. You mentioned that I'm part now of a group called Global Animal, which is actually an animal rights organisation. I have been involved with human rights a lot in the past. Now I've switched over to the animals. The other animals, I should say. We are animals as well. Anyway, I'm just continually blown away by the tenderness and the emotional intelligence of animals, especially mammals, of course. It's all of these ways, all of these portals of wisdom that come across the transom of your mind that some minds just are looking for those, have incredible receptors for those, have neurological receptors for those kinds of channels and those kinds of bits of information and I think one can, in a sense, train the awareness to look for those.   Tahnee: (25:51) That was going to be my question because I mean, I feel like I... I sometimes try and nut this out in my head and I don't get very far. I remember as a child being very sensitive and open and then kind of going through a science phase and a cynical phase, I suppose, in my early 20s and I feel like I've come full circle back to this very sensitive place but I have, I think, now the capacity to handle it. In reading your essay especially, the one on facing extinction, I speak to so many people about this in my community and it's this sense of, it's too much and I can't carry it. The sensitivity I have, it's a burden instead of a gift. I've found, for me, refuge in stillness and quiet and all the things you were talking about. Aloneness. Nature for me is a huge part of it and why I choose to live here and I've heard you say the same about moving to Lennox. Is there ways you've seen people grow into their sensitivity and their perceptiveness/ because I think these people, they're so required right now. Those empaths and those people that feel it all. I don't know how to help them. It's like, you just have to keep going.   Catherine Ingram: (27:20) Yeah, it's a conundrum. It's a great question. It's not one I have a clear answer on in that the sensitivity comes with the deepening and widening awareness. It's a challenge because the more sensitive you are, the more subject to feeling the sorrows of the world and of the people you love and you as a young mother-   Tahnee: (27:49) Many feelings.   Catherine Ingram: (27:53) Yeah. The problem is, you kind of can't help it. You can't really help it if you're someone who feels very, very deeply and you notice things and you have natural empathy. Now I think people do shut down. They harden their hearts. They put blinkers on. They're essentially armoured because they're frightened and feeling too deeply is just too painful for them but I don't see any way around if you're paying attention, if the awareness is widening, which in a way it does on its own but like I said, you can sort of direct it, train it more to look for wisdom wherever you can find it and that includes ways to let go and to try to be strong. If that's how you're built then sorrow comes with it. Just as I sometimes say, if you're not at least a little bit sad, you're not paying attention. All of these happiness programs, they just make my skin crawl. Be happy and real happy and happy happy.   Tahnee: (29:23) Uhg! And they've coerced Buddhist, the dharma teachings. I mean, I'm on social media, unfortunately in some ways and I see this stuff and I just think... I mean, one of my teachers calls it the bandwidth. We want to be able to feel a spectrum of things and just to expect that it's just happy and sunshine, rainbows, lollipops all the time is-   Catherine Ingram: (29:50) Yeah, I often say, have said for 30 years that we live on a spectrum of feelings and on one end is deep suffering and sorrow and sadness and depression and all kinds of things and at the other is incredible joy. We live on that spectrum. And that to shut down one end also shuts down the other. So some people want to play it safe and go right into the middle, don't feel too much on either side. You shut down any... Like basically grief is connected to love. That's why we grieve is because we love, like I said in my essay. So if you're going to give up, if you're so afraid of grieving, then you really can't invest in your love. You're going to be at risk. So that's what we've got here as human creatures. I think in this time, where the world has stopped, even though it's starting to move about a bit more, but I think a lot of people have reset their priorities and have understood perhaps in ways they never understood. But for many of us who've been looking at these things and feeling into them, we've understood them more deeply. That this life that we are so privileged to be living, it really never had any guarantees. We kind of drifted into an illusion in our rich cultures of just, you know, kind of having a party. I mean just going along.   Catherine Ingram: (31:33) Just get what you want. Go where you want. Study what you want. Go here. Flit there. So we've just been having a grand old time and now we're confronted with our entire way of life has not only changed for now but it's changed and probably it's going to stay changed. It's going to get more and more challenging. I believe we're headed into a cascade of crises. The coronavirus crisis is going to perhaps be the kickstart. But we've got all the big ones waiting. The worse ones are waiting in the wings. They're cooking away in the background. We haven't been talking about them as much during this one. But they're going along. They're going a pace. Unlike this one, which might have some mitigation to it, I don't think those other ones do. So I think what we're facing is a lot more letting go and a lot more needing to find empathy and understanding and getting way closer to the ground in terms of how we live simply. I don't know if you've noticed this but I have... I've just not been spending money on pretty much anything except food and paying the utilities-   Tahnee: (33:05) Yeah the things you have to pay.   Catherine Ingram: (33:08) [inaudible 00:33:08] monthly charges and I'm grateful to be able to do that. I've seen, gosh, even though it's kind of stripped down, those are really essential things. Food and having the water come on when you turn it on.   Tahnee: (33:26) Basic necessities. Yeah well it's definitely... I mean again a theme I'm really witnessing is a move toward... So we've just put in a chicken coop, which we started before all this happened but it didn't get finished until the middle of all of this. I contacted a breeder for the chickens. I was looking for a heritage breeder. He said, "The pandemic hit and I've sold out." He said, "I've sold every chicken I have until October." He's like, "Everyone's gone self-sufficient." I was like, "Well wow, that's crazy." I've noticed all of these permaculture people are offering courses on sustainable backyard gardens and farming. I'm like, "That's so great that people are starting." If that's one of the, I guess, impacts of this on a micro level, that people start to think-   Catherine Ingram: (34:17) It's a great benefit because things are still kind of holding together. We're not in massive drought or fires or some [inaudible 00:34:26] war thing happening over resources. We're basically just told to stay in our homes. The skies are blue and the waters are clear. The earth is actually breathing a great sigh of relief in having us stopped. So it is a perfect time to learn those kind of basic life-   Tahnee: (34:47) Life skills.   Catherine Ingram: (34:49) [inaudible 00:34:49] yeah.   Tahnee: (34:50) That's something... I mean I copied a quote out of your essay, which was, "On the last day of the world, I would want to plant a tree." I nearly cried when I read that. I'm nearly crying now because I think that's something, when people feel the overwhelm and the kind of impact of what is going on on a more macro level, they just become numb. Business as usual I suppose carries on. I think it's... To think that even if the world was coming to an end, we would still make an offering that we would not live to see come to fruition I think is-   Catherine Ingram: (35:28) But just to be clear that wasn't my quote. I quoted that.   Tahnee: (35:30) No sorry. It was Merwin. But you quoted it and I mean, all the quotes you chose for that were really beautiful. But that one, I just really... Because I think I've definitely... I studied environmental science for a year and a half at university.   Catherine Ingram: (35:46) [inaudible 00:35:46].   Tahnee: (35:46) I really struggled with... You were either angry and like trying to cut off from the world and go off the grid and disappear or you were kind of apathetic and well, "It's all going to happen anyway. Humans are a virus. They should all be killed." It was like, there didn't feel like much of a middle ground but I fel like everyone was really... And even then there was the women that were like, "All the men should die. The patriarchy's the problem." Like, "None of this really resonates with me."   Catherine Ingram: (36:17) It's kind of like displaced... It's displaced grief.   Tahnee: (36:21) Yeah. When I think about the stages, right? Denial, anger, bargaining, depression... But then I also was recently reading that they've added another stage. Because it used to end at acceptance. Now they've added transformation into meaning. I thought... Into insight. I was like, that's so perfect because I feel like over two decades that's been my experience. I'm sure you've seen that.   Catherine Ingram: (36:44) Yeah definitely, yes. I know, I love that quote as well from Merwin and it's exactly that. You live, like my teacher [inaudible 00:36:57] once said, "Death is when the next breath doesn't come." So basically it's simple as that. You've living until then and how are you living here? How are you showing up? It still has meaning as long as we're here. It has meaning even after we're gone as well but while we're here we're part of the meaning of it. And so what do you do with your energy, your time, your attention? Your activity? Your service? So yeah, of course. I mean we've got so many beautiful examples through history of people who were in just terrible dire circumstances and who carried on and did it in grace, in beauty. So that's... I think that's the play on the board. In a way then that you're off the hook in terms of, you don't have to manipulate and try to change how it goes. Because it's going to go... This is a big juggernaut now. I mean, the thing I think people don't understand fully is that although we have changed the natural expressions of our world, we've changed them for the worse in that it's killing life, it doesn't follow necessarily that we can change them back.   Catherine Ingram: (38:31) I don't see the will in terms of the powerful players doing that anyway. But even if they would, I certainly am not convinced that if every single person woke up tomorrow and that was their full dedication for the rest of their lives, that it would save us, frankly. Because we have put things into play now that are on their own. That the warming is actually now on its own trajectory. So there may be some sort of technology that, I don't know, cools it or-   Tahnee: (39:06) That was something else I copied from your... Because I mean I guess, being of the age where a lot of my peers are really involved in conspiracy theories and the... Like it's so easy to be in that place of like, we're all pawns in a... But I mean you said something around Elon Musk is just like that nerdy guy who... And I've said this to my partner multiple times, like Bill Gates, they're just these people that they think that what they're doing is right because they don't have the self-reflect... You know they just don't have perspective to see. And you said something like, "Their intelligence is one dimensional." To paraphrase you.   Catherine Ingram: (39:51) [crosstalk 00:39:51] excellent. They do have amazing intelligence. It's just disconnected a lot from the Earth systems and from the natural systems. But it's not to say that they aren't well intended. I think they actually are well intended. They just get it from their own paradigm.   Tahnee: (40:09) Exactly and what they think is best is maybe not what we think is best. But I mean to call someone evil, I think it's a tricky line to walk. And I see that, that technology will save us and I've seen some eco-activists talk to that as well. I don't know, I just feel sinking in my gut when I read that sort of stuff because it doesn't-   Catherine Ingram: (40:33) It's just more manipulation with nature. It's just more of what got us into this mess actually. All these different green technologies and it all just feels so misguided. It's just more of the same. We have hubris, you know? This sort of, what Derrick Jensen calls the myth of human supremacy. Instead of understanding it, we've got to just cut back everything. We've got to stop. That's probably not going to save us either.   Tahnee: (41:02) And civilizations have fallen so many times through history through their own arrogance and their own excessive... And you look at nature and the plagues of locusts and they eat everything and they all die. That's the way it goes.   Catherine Ingram: (41:21) Locust plague going on right now. 160 million people are on the verge of starvation. Estimates that it's going to be double that in-   Tahnee: (41:28) Well I've been reading all this stuff. The ninth article on a page sometimes, or even you have to go a few pages deep but it's like, the food supply is gone for a lot of places. That's something I struggle with so much because I see it here and we do live in this place that's so rich in food and abundance and nature. I am privileged to go to the beach every day. I buy from a farmer's market. There are people in countries in the world right now that are really struggling and suffering and not even in... Like I know America's having a tough time but... I know India's going through it. I know Iran. I know parts of Africa are having a really tough time. It's like, how do we even help? What do we do?   Catherine Ingram: (42:12) I know. The chickens are coming home to roost in terms of what we've been doing here. We've got to really... We're going to need a lot more courage in ourselves. We've been so spoiled. It's not our own fault because we came into the spoils of our cultures. We've been reared up in this kind of abundance and calm and safety and all these things that we've just taken for granted. But now we're in a different phase. I think we're going to have to really get to that quiet sanctuary in ourselves a lot and find there a growing sense of courage and a growing acceptance and setting aside our own hubris about how long a life we should have and how much we should have and all of those things. It's hard. And yet that's... We can either accept or fight the reality. Those are our options.   Tahnee: (43:28) I guess I've heard you speak a lot about the... There's something I love about when you lead meditation and the animal nature of us. I think if we can... Because that's one of the things I think that has created so much of the drama is like we've separated ourselves so much from the fact that we are animals. We do have rhythms that flow with nature. We have needs like animals. We communicate with animals. I'm reading this great book called the Tao of Equus right now. She's talking about how horses, we've dominated them and used them for so long but now they're moving into this space of like, taking us back to connecting with ourselves and nature and just this idea that, especially through women and the wisdom held by, I guess that more feminine energy but I think everyone has the Yin and the Yang, that's definitely something I feel to be true, but like yeah, I can really feel that this is a time of... If you think about the elders and keeping the culture on track and present and like that's, I think, such a requirement of this time.   Tahnee: (44:36) You look at all the leadership, it's all men. It's all men of a certain kind of privilege and a certain type of personality type, thinking of some narcissistic leaders off the top of my head right now. I think it's that older wise woman thing that we need. I don't know if you know Helena, who's a local to this area, she might be involved in Resilient Byron with you?   Catherine Ingram: (44:58) No.   Tahnee: (45:01) Okay well she was one of the women that I first spoke to these things about. She's a bit older. She was one of the women to start the community farmer's markets here and everything. This idea of local features, you know, like that we have to look for leadership and strength and resilience in our own communities. And then build on that. To me, that's something I'm really craving and hoping becomes more prominent. I know you're working with Resilient Byron. Is it mostly people that are out of their childbearing years or is it a mix of people?   Catherine Ingram: (45:34) A mix. We don't have a huge steering group at the moment but it's definitely a mix of ages for sure yeah. I think I'm the oldest in fact.   Tahnee: (45:46) How do you feel like age has then, I guess, brought you... Is there like a... I read this great story the other day in a book called If Women Rose Rooted. She said it's this combination of like wrath and gentleness as you get older.   Catherine Ingram: (46:04) Yes. I definitely feel that actually inside myself. I feel what's happened for me, one of the great things is you just get a lot more authentic when you get older, women. Because I think for many women, we fell into needing to be pleasers. We kind of like to please a lot. Sometimes we compromised what we really felt and what we really thought and what we wanted to do and all of those things. Because somebody else needed us to be some other way. So that's something one grows out of, which is a happy-   Tahnee: (46:44) [crosstalk 00:46:44].   Catherine Ingram: (46:48) You just get a lot more clear about... You get more savage about your time I must say. You are less inclined to spend time on nonsense or to indulge certain mind streams that you know are just going to end up in a dark alley. It has all kind of benefits along with some great disadvantages that come along. But again, it does have some beautiful silver linings.   Tahnee: (47:23) Was it like a difficult... Because I mean when did you move? Because you've been in The States most of your life, right?   Catherine Ingram: (47:29) Yeah.   Tahnee: (47:30) And then you moved out here when?   Catherine Ingram: (47:31) About [inaudible 00:47:33] half years ago.   Tahnee: (47:35) And so, was that a big shift for you, culturally and professionally and yeah?   Catherine Ingram: (47:40) That was a big shift. Massive, massive shift. To do it at the age I was as well. But I had felt for a very long time I wanted to get out of America. And that alone wouldn't have pulled me out but it was a combination of wanting to get out of there and also falling in love with this part of the world, Australia. And also New Zealand. I love New Zealand as well.   Tahnee: (48:02) Me too. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (48:04) So you kind of get both when you come in as a resident of Australia. So I just have been so grateful to be living here. Just I feel so lucky. And everybody in the states, all the people I talk with so often, everybody says, "Oh God you're so lucky." Except that one isn't living... We're living always in a context of "Yes I'm here and I'm lucky but my friends, my oldest friends and my whole family are over there." So my heart is over there as well. Not entirely. But I mean I often feel like, it feels something like it must have felt in Germany if you were a Jew and you were getting out but all your family was still there. You're never really entirely free in that regard. Now I'm [inaudible 00:49:05] and I hold things in as big a space as I can as I view them, but these feelings of course arise with a great frequency. And yeah, but I am very happy to be in this particular place. This is a paradise in any context, you know? And especially now.   Tahnee: (49:31) I know we've been really, I guess not struggling with guilt but we've been really conscious of that feeling of like, "Well, our lives haven't been deeply impacted by this." It's obviously, I guess, I feel like I'm more focused now and I'm prioritising things more. I feel like my inner journey through this has been really powerful but in terms of what my outward life looks like, I don't obviously do as many external things. But I'm still at the beach every day. I'm still going to the farmer's markets at a social distance. It's like, I'm still kind of doing a lot of the things, and yeah, it's a tricky one to imagine. Like in some ways I think having the bush fires was a really good thing for Australian's to realise.   Catherine Ingram: (50:23) I do too.   Tahnee: (50:23) Yeah like that there actually is going to be an impact. Because it's so easy when it's over there to kind of forget about it or to take-   Catherine Ingram: (50:33) Yeah well it was also somehow helpful in that we were already sort of crisis ready.   Tahnee: (50:41) Orientated. Turning toward crisis.   Catherine Ingram: (50:45) We've already gotten our crisis muscles well exercised. I mean I know people could argue and say, "Yeah well we're in crisis fatigue." But I actually think there was some benefit in terms of of a way that, first of all, that whole sense of, "Okay what's important? What matters? If my house catches fire, what is it in it that I needed even? My photographs maybe or whatever. My computer possibly." But you know, and of course then you think, one of my girlfriends, this is a little bit telling a tale out of the school but, one of my girlfriends in LA owns a Picasso. And so one time, LA gets a lot of fires. And so one time she was telling me that during one of the recent fires she had actually, she had grabbed of course her dogs and the bunny rabbit and she was trying to figure out how to get the fish. She gets everything kind of ready to get loaded into the car and then it turns out they didn't need to go. And I said, "What about the Picasso?" And she said, "I didn't even think about the Picasso." I thought, "That's so cool. The bunny rabbit made it in there before the Picasso." It's like, that's really cool.   Tahnee: (52:07) It sounds like she's got her head on straight yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (52:09) Exactly. I think a lot of us would make those choices actually. The living thing. So yeah, I think we had, through the fires, come to those kinds of recognitions. What actually does one need in a life? We're so happy because we went through all that drought, we got a big lesson in water. In water rationing and we got a huge lesson in don't take any of this for granted. So yeah, these are going to be the lessons coming forth, I do believe.   Tahnee: (52:46) It's interesting what you're... Because you said something else in the essay around... It was around Auschwitz and the people that survived were the ones that had had struggles already in their lives. I think that's something... That resilience that we build through meeting life's challenges and learning from them. I think when you look at how far our civilization has to fall compared to others, it might be that there is parts of humanity that survive because of what they've been through.   Catherine Ingram: (53:21) Already existing local resilience, doing without, living on very little, helping [inaudible 00:53:27] community. Yes. I think they're in a far better circumstance to get through this than we are because we're so dependent on a very complicated system. And we're not used to a certain kind of community sharing, which is very much what we want to start focusing on with this group.   Tahnee: (53:48) So in terms of what you are looking to create, I suppose, could you just give us the elevator pitch or some kind of sense of what the ideal outcome of this organisation would be?   Catherine Ingram: (54:01) Resilient Byron, well there's one part of it is resilient and the other part is regenerative. But I'm more interested in the resilient. I actually think we're going straight into crises one after the next. So in that conversation, it's been about starting a framework of neighbourhood units of resilience basically so that people would start focusing on their own neighbourhoods. Whatever that means to you. Whether it's your street or your particular area. And start sharing resources. We've got the Facebook page, which is serving as a kind of clearing house at the moment for just information and for people to find out about things like during the coronavirus crisis. Like where to get things you need, food or help in various ways. We're going to start having more conversations about food security, community gardens, security security. Like just how to stay safe. What about housing for people who may... Either don't have housing currently or may need it at some point.   Catherine Ingram: (55:17) So there's lots of, I mean it's really in the formative stages but we're just basically looking at lots of different ways that we're going to organise to perhaps be a system in this region that is de-linked from the national sort of federal system. I don't mean that we're going to do a political coup but rather that we're going to have a lot of local resources we're relying on. Those can be also shared with nearby like [inaudible 00:55:51] and up where you are.   Tahnee: (55:54) [inaudible 00:55:54].   Catherine Ingram: (55:58) It could be an entire Northern Rivers sort of eco-community that is helping each other.   Tahnee: (56:08) That's so exciting to me because I mean I think I can see how that becomes something that can roll out. I have a friend in Melbourne and I know, on her street, she's has food and she grows things and her neighbours do and they all trade eggs and vegetables. And just that little bit of connection with the people on your street and that's such a... It has such a profound impact on your wellbeing. That was one of the solutions you offered up in the essay was community and I think-   Catherine Ingram: (56:36) It's number one yeah. It's the number one-   Tahnee: (56:38) And what we've really done is separate ourselves. I remember living in the city and if you like smiled at somebody... I was lucky to be raised in the country where you knew everybody, which had pros and cons. Because you knew everybody. I remember being really naughty as a teenager and like the local policeman was my mum's mate and I was like, "Hey." He was like, "Oh dear." Anyway. But yeah, I think it's really, this kind of getting to know the people that we live beside every day. Just getting a sense of, well, "Yeah they're the people we lean on." Our cul-de-sac through this time has been my saving grace. I have babysitters and I have friends for my children and I have people to share stories with. It's just been... Yeah it's been such a beautiful experience.   Catherine Ingram: (57:32) That's wonderful. That's really it. That's wonderful. That's what humans have relied on through all of human history until quite recently was, you lived with your tribe. And of course as civilization so called erupted, still people lived with their tribes in a different way. They lived mostly with family or rural communities or if you lived in a city it wasn't a huge city. There weren't huge cities really.   Tahnee: (58:04) Well and even people stayed in their boroughs, you know? They didn't leave their neighbourhoods. Very infrequently. Yeah.   Catherine Ingram: (58:13) You'd still live within a tribe within the city. So yeah, we've gotten far from that but we can... That is one thing I think we can bring back. Well dear I should go because-   Tahnee: (58:25) Yes I was going to say, thank you so much. It's actually nearly 11:11 so that's perfect. I just wanted to say that was such a great note to end on. And also because that's something you do with the Dharma Dialogues. I always got so much... I haven't been to them in a while because you weren't doing them and then this has happened but just being around people who are able to articulate their human experience and then just the sharing and I think that's, for me, been such a balm. And also obviously your wisdom and insight. So I know you've got two weekends per month coming up. Is it through June and July that you'll be doing that?   Catherine Ingram: (59:03) I'm actually going to do it indefinitely. I'm going to start-   Tahnee: (59:05) Oh wonderful.   Catherine Ingram: (59:07) Since we're locked down I'm just going to start doing online-   Tahnee: (59:09) Great so they'll be replacing, in a way the Lennox events?   Catherine Ingram: (59:13) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:13) Okay. Fantastic. Okay well that's super exciting. Okay so those'll go up on your website soon so we can link to them and if anyone... Is it just through sign up to your email kind of thing and you'll be notified?   Catherine Ingram: (59:25) Yeah.   Tahnee: (59:26) Awesome. Well thank you so much for your time. I know-   Catherine Ingram: (59:29) Thank you so much for inviting me. That was lovely.   Tahnee: (59:31) Yeah it's been really beautiful to speak with you. I'll also link to your books as well because Passionate Presence is the only one I've read but I really enjoyed it. Yeah, I really just appreciate everything you're offering because it helps people like me navigate their lives. So much love. All right Catherine well I'll hopefully see you in the flesh again one day soon. Enjoy the rest of your day.   Catherine Ingram: (59:55) And you. Bye dear.   Tahnee: (59:57) Bye hun.   Catherine Ingram: (59:57) Bye.

What the hell have I been up to? Well I've been eating a lot of soup for one. Making a lot of soup, thinking about soup a lot. Not only do I think I can revolutionize the fad diet world with my all pea-soup diet, I think I can also capitalize on a new unit of measure... for soup. Now before you beat yourself up with the "Why didn't I think of it first?", we allll knew it had to be done. I was just the first to pull the trigger.Twitter: @Snake_Doherty 

Bourbon and ham, is that a pairing you would expect? To be honest, neither did I. I’m a sucker for killing a plate of prosciutto at a dinner party, but thanks to our guest Steve Coomes, we’ve discovered a new love for country ham. When done right, the saltiness of the ham just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve as he talks to us about a past life as a pizza judge (yes, a pizza judge!) and then we get into hams. The diet of the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those ham legs you see hanging inside rickhouses. I think it will surprise you. Of course, it wouldn’t be complete if we didn’t do a bourbon and ham pairing. Try not to salivate too much. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Whiskey From Home: WhiskeyFromHome.com Show Notes: Bourbon in a Decanter: Does is go bad? https://advancedmixology.com/blogs/art-of-mixology/does-bourbon-go-bad-in-decanter This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Derby. How did you get into spirits writing? Tell us about your bourbon and ham parings. Talk about your culinary background. How do you judge a pizza? Tell us about the hams you brought today. How do you come up with the pairings? Are the pigs fed a specific diet? What is the difference in the thickness of country ham and prosciutto. Tell us about curing. What sizes do hams come in? What flavors are you looking for when pairing? How much does this ham cost? Where can you buy country ham? What do you think about hams aging in rickhouses? 0:00 That country ham industry is its own worst enemy, many times and understanding what it needs to do to make itself look on par with Italian cured hams. Yeah. My wife it's charcuterie. She's like, Oh 0:11 yeah, you say it's like oh no, no way. It's like 0:28 Welcome to Episode 251 of bourbon pursuit. I hope you all are hanging in there with your quarantine here, because I know right now, mine's looking pretty Shaggy. I'm due for a haircut. But before I get to the news, I want to tell you once again about whiskey from home with the help of some of the best names in bourbon. We're doing a five and a half hour livestream of whiskey soap entertainment on May 2, starting at 12pm Eastern. So right now go to whiskey from home calm and get your free ticket there sessions on bourbon history. The best Bourbons on the shelf right now. Blind flights how to hunt for great bourbon, a virtual food pairing with Peggy no Stevens and a virtual bourbon tasting with our good friend, Fred MiniK. The shopping list for everything that you need to follow along. Is it whiskey from home calm, so go there. Check it out. It's a free event. So come and spend your Saturday afternoon with us. Now, bourbon into decanter doesn't go bad. This is a question that was asked and answered with extensive research from advanced mixology calm. After you buy a bottle of bourbon, how should it be stored? does it stay preserved for years or even decades have left on open? What about the canning of bourbon? Can it go bad then? Well, it all comes down to aeration, and without giving too much of it away. You can read all the answers to these questions to the link from advanced mixologist calm in our show notes. For today's podcast, we talked about bourbon and ham. Is that a pairing that you would expect? Well, to be honest, neither did I I'm a sucker for killing a whole plate of for shoot, I was at a dinner party. But thanks to our guest, Steve Coombs, I found a new love for country ham. When done, right, the saltiness of the ham, it just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve, as he talks about his past life as a pizza judge, you heard that right up pizza judge, I mean, talk about a dream job. But then we get into hands, the die to the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those hand legs that you see hanging inside of Rick houses. I think it's gonna surprise you. Of course, it wouldn't be complete if we didn't do a bourbon and hand pairing. So try not to salivate too much. All right, don't forget it whiskey from home calm, go register and get your free ticket. If you haven't had a chance yet, go to barrel bourbon.com and you can get cash drink bourbon, whiskey, rye and rum. All delivered direct to your door. Just look for the Buy Now button at the top of the page. All right. Now here we go. Yo, here's Fred minich with above the char. 3:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I'm a little sad right now. I'm actually really, really sad. We've had to cancel bourbon and beyond. I think many of you all know that. But that's the festival that I co created with Danny Wimmer presents and COVID is forcing a lot of cancellations, especially in the music world. What's gonna happen to the Kentucky Derby? No one really knows. But this Saturday would have been my 13 Kentucky Derby in a row to attend. And I'm just sad because that piece of that that moment is gone. It that it's gone. That piece of culture, that piece of celebration. And it's not necessarily about the horses. It's about the gathering of the people the smoking of cigars, a sipping a bourbon, seeing my wife go through, you know, 15 thousand different hats before she chooses one. So many great moments I've had over the years. I want to share one with you. Now, if you followed me you know that I've, I was a guest of the governor last year and I've been a millionaire's row and I've been around the celebrities and all that. And a lot of people be like, that would be that would be the one that would be like the one memory that you would want to take away when you think about your experiences as the from the derby. I've also been a photographer on the derby. I was on the finishing line in 2008 and got some really beautiful photos of a Belle's before she passed away. And yet, that's not it either. Now, my favorite Derby of all time, was when I was in Peggy know Stephens box with with my wife. We were just pregnant. We're just getting out of that first trimester where we could start telling people you know how it is if you've been pregnant? Well, I've never been pregnant. My wife spent pregnant but I say we as in like, you know, family, and you get out of that first trimester and you're so excited to tell people and we're Catholic. So that first step is always like, Alright, who are going to be the godparents? So it was on Derby Day, like, two, three years ago, that we were in Peggy's box and we asked Peggy, if she would be the godmother to our son, Julian. And she cried, said yes, of course. And it was just a magical moment. It was a wonderful celebration. And then I think I lost a couple hundred bucks on the race. But there's no replace in the derby. We can't replace that. That's just a magical, magical moment. If you've ever been, you know what I'm talking about, but we're doing something that is as good as we possibly can present right now. And that's whiskey from home. It is an amazing lineup of bourbon personalities. And I hope you will join us all day Saturday. As we drink bourbon as we talk bourbon, we're going to be streaming across the interwebs. Unlike any time before, this is the first, this is the first time my knowledge that we've ever seen something like this a virtual conference in the bourbon world. And my hat's off to Kenny Coleman. He's just done such a good job, you know, stepping up and getting this thing going. On the back end. I'm trying to get all the streaming stuff set up. And Ryan's going to be making cocktails and you know what, I'm going to try and make them alongside him. So I cannot wait to see how this goes for everybody. And I hope you will join us. It's this Saturday. I'm sure Kenny's already talked about it, and you're going to hear more about it later on. But it's going to be a great time is it going to replace the derby? Nothing can replace that in our hearts. But what it can do is it can help us get us through the fact that we are missing missing the greatest two minutes in sports. So that's this week's above the char. This one came from the heart. If you have a heartfelt story about the Kentucky Derby, hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to my website Fred medic comm and send me an email. I like reading those kinds of stories. Until next week, cheers 7:23 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole team here today we've got bourbon and we've got ham where we talking pigs and bourbon today so this is this is something that I know Ryan and myself we're big barbecue guys, we got our green eggs, you've got your drum, you've got all kinds of things so terrible, but yes, it's a better omen. Yeah. And you know, for me, I love I love charcuterie boards when I go out to restaurants to can't get enough a ham. And I mean you remember we were talking about going to North Carolina you're talking about the gym. Oh, and ham. Is that what it is? Yep. 7:56 Yeah, the Serrano Hamza Oh, the ham on Hello. Yeah. 8:00 hormone 8:00 that's a source that's your jam on or GMO yeah 8:03 Jay Michael Jackson working there. 8:04 It's the jam the jam and ham. cured meats are like you're talking about love language and I used to raise pigs I used to raise pigs so like this is like ham to me is like it's what I grew up with. We used to raise do rocks and Berkshires and everything's kidding 8:21 yeah I had my Linux I knew you're in the hug business you ever notice had their day their pig in the mud? Did everyone pay the pig you know in the mud? 8:28 Yeah, we made them yeah, we literally like I'd had to clean them all the time because they would get it get really bad and we had some we did have some some hampshire's as well. I had like, like one of these really nice prized hampshire's, and the damn thing died when it touched concrete like it was it was a carrier of what they call a stress gene. And one of my big contributions to the hog community is that I donated him to science instead of eating him 9:00 After he died, you get a tax write off for that or something. I 9:04 don't you know what I think we did, but if they actually they've cured they've bred most of that out there. 9:09 Yeah. And you can't eat them unless you cause its death. Right? If it does that on its own, you gotta 9:15 take there's any rules on 9:19 that to show up live to the budget, 9:22 whatever it sounds delicious. So if 9:24 you hit by a car, I think that seeing well we don't want to know how the sausage made, you know, no pun intended. 9:29 Who knows we might get back into that action today and kind of talking about cured meats as well as we go through here. But you've already heard our guests today. So today is our guests. We've got Steve Coombs. Steve is all over the place. He knows about pigs. He knows about bourbon. He's been a writer for bourbon Plus, he's also an author. He's been a contributing writer for bourbon and banter. So Steve, welcome to the show. 9:49 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 9:50 Yeah, so I mean, we kind of talked a little bit there but let's let's kind of talk about some of your your bourbon cred. You know, how did how did you get into actually start writing and kind of Knowing and exploring the spirits world, 10:02 I always call this the confession moment in that I was probably 4748. before somebody got she was the tourism director in Bardstown. And I was down there doing a story for Southern Living magazine, y'all remember Don crystal? Oh, yeah, Don, Don said, we pulled up to heaven Hill. She said, Steve Coombs, you get out of this car right now go inside and do that tasting said you're not going to do an article on my town without tasting some bourbon and believe it or not honest truth, it really clicked that day. It was funny that 92 proof larceny lit my mouth on fire to the point of numbness. And I mean, and now we're drinking barrels, barrel strength, dry, you know, it's no big deal. So I got hooked on it literally just because of the culture. And of course, watching Fred, Fred and I worked many years ago together and seeing what it did for his career and becoming attracted to the characters in the business. My gosh, I mean, I've written about the culinary business for 30 years and never had Have I found such a concentration of friendly characters in one single business? And you especially talking about how rough it was in the wine industry, you know how snobs were in that like you didn't want any more involvement with that the low ego part of this businesses just you know gold for writers don't think yeah, 11:15 I mean the the characters are amazing. I remember that time in your career you You called me I've really how did you get here? How did you do that and all that and I and it for me, this has always been easy because of the of the people and at the time, you were like thinking about, you know, teetering with tequila a little bit. Remember I was and I still love it. But it's a whole country away. 11:38 And here we live in the country of bourbon country, and it's right here and you can drive to barks down to 15 minutes and be interviewing the geniuses in the business or Frankfurt or, you know, Larkspur, 11:49 one of the great things that you've done is that a lot of people come into, into in bourbon and they just, they kind of repeat the same stories. You know, not a lot Have people you know, try to go outside of what's already been done. And you've kind of you've done that. And I've been telling you for a long time that people want to be, you know, learn more about ham and the pairings of it and now you're doing seminars on it and everything. So how did that how did that start? How did you develop this whole new platform that really no one's explored Really? And this ties back to you? Hopefully you remember the answer to this gotta stop this kiss fest over Yeah, 12:27 it is. Yeah, all right 12:30 later, but let me let me say this. he mentored me 15 years ago when we really started he was your supervisor. He said your light just like today? No, I'm kidding. 12:40 I'm totally kidding. 12:41 I was always on time. You were I told him that the company didn't really tolerate that crap and you still ended up military and you just show up on time? 12:47 Yeah, that was that was back when I was still falling a little bit my military code now I'm 10 minutes late to everything cuz I just don't care. Fred. Fred 12:54 called me in July of what was it? 2014. You said that a publisher called Do about doing a book on country ham? That's right. And you said I don't know anything about the subject but I have a feeling I know someone who does. And he called me and he said call the publisher and see if this will work out for you. And I wound up writing that was my is my It was my first book country ham, a southern tradition of hogs salt in smoke, which came out the year after that. And so by then I'd already begun enjoying bourbon and I'm tasting it just like we're gonna taste today. It was late night it was it Believe it or not, sounds so fake, but it's really true is midnight, I was editing the book and sipping it and tasting it with this. Oh my gosh, this works really well together. 13:39 Yeah, it's a match made in heaven. 13:41 Oh, exactly. In and that's really where it kind of clicked. But Jay Denham, who is one of the great cures and Kentucky who's moved back to Cincinnati, had come to me, we're friends. We're talking ham and he said, you know, we should do a big whiskey and hand pairing some time and somehow or another led to the bourbon classic. And we did One with have not had been hell I'm sorry Jim Beam. And it was a hit from then. And ever since I've been doing a lot of these tastings My gosh, we've got six books already this year through March out of town. And it's a lot of fun to spread the gospel of both I mean, pork gets a bad name the United States and this is this is really good stuff that we don't try today. The other other white man and he is really really read me forgot that tagline. Yeah, so horrible. I kinda want to rewind it back to you even a little bit more here. So kind of talk because you were you were a chef previously in your life too, right to kind of talk more about your culinary background. So I my mother was a good Southern cook but never did understand restaurant food until I had to start paying my tuition at St x and my parents said you know, times are a little tight you boys need to get some better jobs if you're gonna keep going to say next pay for it. So I start working and fine dining. And it was the restaurant that really gave Louisville its own restaurant boom was called Casa goes on. It's long since gone. But that was the first place that I tasted really, really good fresh fish, real asparagus, Hollandaise, all these kinds of things. And I realized that was wired for the culinary industry. didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated college and was stuck watching the chef's and thought that looks interesting. I'll try that. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer, but I was an absolute terrible manual typewriter typist, mine was the last class at St x in 1982 that use true manual typewriters. And the best I ever did was 32 words a minute. And that wasn't gonna fly at a newspaper. About five or so years later, I got a laptop. It was an IT WAS AN NTC multi sink if anybody remembers it, you guys are toddlers 15:43 weighed 11 and a half 15:44 pounds when that one had like a real floppy like the five and a 15:48 half inch floppy? No, not that 123 and a half no hard drive. And that was the first time that I ever discovered that word processing allows you to correct your mistakes and like well maybe I can do this thing after all. And then so I started writing about the rest Strong industry that was 1991 I still do it not nearly as much because of, you know, publications like yours and, and I'm really digging the spirit scene but to be in it this long and have gotten to travel to really neat places in the world, just writing about food has been a treat and I'm in a food town. So it's been a good career. I let me let me add something to this. He was the editor in chief of pizza today. And then he later was the editor, editor of a website called pizza marketplace. And Steve was a god in pizza around the world. And if you think about pizza, it's like its own sounds delicious. Anyway. 16:44 Steve likes too skinny to be like, doing all this food cookies, but 16:47 he would he would write about these like pizza dough throwing contests and it'd be like Italy versus United States or Canada and that was going on when you're there, man. And it's just it was just it was fun. For me from a career perspective, that was the first time I had ever seen anyone cover a beat very uniquely, and that I've never told you this, but the way that you own pizza gave me a lot of like motivation, you know, to, you know, to discover, you know, in that or in the early times in my career to find what I could like your neck hat, find my niche like you did. And like, he was a god and pizza. If you Google Steve Coombs, you know, we put the quotation marks around it, and then pizza, you'll find a lot of his old stuff and it's beautiful. I kind of want to talk about both. I know 17:41 I kind of talk about pizza just for a second. So kind of talk about like, how do you judge a pizza like in your mind when you were going into judge a pizza like what how does that how does that work? 17:50 there? It's It's the last contest that I did for a long time was in Columbus, that client I was telling you about that I had been up there was the North Custom was a minute American pizza contest can't recall but we judge it on crest quality Christmas. You would look at what you know the rim of the crest which at the time is called the corny God or the cornice. And you'd look for the texture of the dough. You judge it on the the flavor of the sauce how it presents itself well with cheese you don't want to slide off. That's a problem. He looked at the ratio of toppings with sauce and crust. And when you look at the marketability of it is this thing really something that would sell in a in a pizza restaurant or do the guy just make it up on his way in and then do you do thumbs up sideways? Thumbs thumbs down? There wasn't there was there were 38 judges in this contest to manage you know, the volume of pizzas that were coming through. So you really did have to have a rigorous pizza quickies now it's a bookies. Yeah, we could Yeah, yeah. So it was it was pretty rigorous judging, and I'd seen a similar system in Italian I'm sorry in Italy, but uh, it's basically based on what you know, making the Italians win. What's their system What style do you prefer? Like? 19:03 Okay, I really do. 19:04 Yeah, me Neapolitan, New York. Go neck and neck. Yeah. And I like that salt mine like a Pete not pizza. Taco foldable floppy. 19:11 Yeah, there seems to be a trend right now of people bashing Chicago style pizza saying it's not really pizza. It's just like a big like a lasagna. Yeah, it's 19:20 Are you in that? Are you No, not at all. That that's it's a derivative of an Italian version of pizza called torta pasqual Lena which means Easter tart or torte. And it was basically you know, the deep dish and they would put another layer of crust over the top and it was it was like kind of like we will roll out a big lasagna for celebratory event. And and that's the way it was treated. It wasn't the Italians don't see pizza as a slice after slice thing. Like we eat it here. I mean, we're committed. These dudes have had an appetizer, some wine, the little bit of pizza, then, you know something afterward. We look at Pizza as a whole meal sometimes our meal. Yeah, no. So 20:01 kind of goes back to that old saying like, any pizza can be a personal pain if you want to try harder. Yeah. 20:06 Yeah, yeah. So 20:09 they would look at that at a pizza that size and say, Man, that's for 10 people. 12 people, you know, and we look at it sometimes they will you get two friends. Yeah. 20:22 All right pizza pursuit come to you in 2021 Yep. All right. So let's let's kind of head and kind of dive in here with with what we have in front of us. So kind of Tell me Tell us a little bit about like what you brought today and variations and why you chose this. 20:34 So we have a couple of hams before us today. And I like to focus on people who use the very breeds that Fred was talking about having raised years ago. Heritage breed hogs because the quality of the meat is higher. The fat is much more present. It's better marbled, there's a better cap like this area here is called and you get a much better balance of flavor and texture. encoding a lot of the things that we talked about with bourbon but only presented in a solid form. I also when I did the book several years ago, I really got to taste a lot of country ham and these specific cures are the one that I ones that I really like to use in presentations. I have found that their meat tastes best with whiskey out of you know many others, partly because of the fat partly because of the complexity that's gained in aging just like bourbon. 21:26 Yeah, I was about to ask like how what what the rigorous process of testing all that was like to be able to figure out exactly what would pair well 21:33 and what no more rigorous and you guys sitting at the bar, just tasting lots of different things and lugging it somewhere in your memory or Notepad. It's just tasting and tasting, tasting and tasting and think it through. It takes it again like bourbon, a little goes a long way you don't need a ton of country hand three ounces, a country hand would give you your full RTA dose of salt, so you don't need much of it. But I've really gotten to where I'm very fond of this first hand nearest us is from the hammer it in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. This is a guy who his name is Bob woods and he's the one that coined my favorite phrase that he used in presentations and he said, Steve, country ham Ain't nothing but hillbilly prosciutto that's what it is. A traditional ham is cured basalt only a country ham is cured with salt and sugar and various other peppers if you like but that's basically the difference 22:26 now these particular pigs you talked about that are worth or they spent a specific diet or they just like you know, in Italy I've seen you know, the swine are fed like a corns only and like massage Do you know? sure that's the procedure department hawks, but they do like to let him get out and free range and did you guys or did you have to keep them in pens or it varied? 22:49 You know, there were some breeds that we would like kind of roam Chester hogs were ones that we would let roam around. You could kind of trust them and they were diggers. They route the hell out They were real readers. 23:02 Very what's rude or mean? Guys? You gotta understand. 23:05 They stay with their nose. I'm gonna say slay 23:07 their noses into the ground to get at grubs and such. Right, 23:09 right. Yeah. So they and they also like to get a nice cool spot to get underneath there. the Berkshires were runners. And so like, if you let them out, there's a pretty good chance that coyote would get it, you know, because they would go out in the woods or something. And they do rocks for really, they were just kind of lazy. They didn't really want to do anything. So even if you open the pin up, they'd be like, yeah, there's a lot out there and I got this water bucket. We're good. 23:35 I love the accent do rocks. Because here in Kentucky me Derek now. Yeah, same spelling, 23:41 just like him. Oh, and and Jim. Oh, well. 23:44 What's fascinating about that is that we would buy hogs from all over the all over the country. You know, because we were competitive. We were showman we were competitive, you know, trying to win jackpot hog shows and stuff. And you go to you we'd go to Illinois, which Illinois had like For a long time, they had like the best genetics for hampshire's and everybody was trying to get a little bit of Hampshire in their in their breeding processes. And they would you would go there you couldn't even understand and they'd say hag, you know, the different enunciations of the breeds? It's fascinating you can it's one of the few kind of light words where you can tell where someone's from, based on how they pronounce breeds. Yeah. And if you look at all they're all most of the of the breeds come from like some kind of European You 24:33 know, when did when you said free range so like, I'm trying to think like a, you know, a cow, like if you have grass fed beef or versus like corn fed corn fed, like much more fatter, like, more flavorful for me anyways, whereas you get grass fed, it's kind of more grainy, kind of earthy kind of flavors, is that do they do the similar things with pigs or? 24:52 Absolutely, I mean, you can you can tell the difference and it just tastes this against some neutral pork sometimes if you cured it, and you do. If we didn't have that diet to begin with, it's not going to influence the meat 25:05 in a thing to that they do with with all animals in, it's very prevalent amongst swine is that they actively add antibiotics because these things are always getting sick. You know, if one of them gets, you know, some kind of flu or some kind of cold, it could wipe out an entire herd or a farrowing house, which has all the piglets in it and you you lose your entire investment so that a lot of these farmers will actively add antibiotics into the feed. And so like when when you hear someone talking about free gain free range or natural or a lot of that means is that they're getting a feed that is not as you know, doped up if you will, and also like they're able to see 25:52 the mo corn thing for you know, hang their hat on that you know, but does it make a difference in the you know, antibiotics versus not any biotics with the meat flavor. 26:01 I've never heard anybody yeah say whether it just always I think it's a no better than I sure 26:07 I think a lot of that also too when you look at this a lot of like ham and sausages is about the processing. So very few people are actually are actually just getting the you know, getting the getting the meat from the hog, you know slicing it and cooking two of them, you know the same way everyone's doing a sauce or they're doing a special cure. It's very it's not like before you can cut you get two steaks, slap it on there, cook it up, and you can tell you know, it's very it's very different with this because much of the art is in the curing and I'm fascinated to me. I'm very fascinated with the art of curing because we go into warehouses and Kentucky, you know, bourbon warehouses like will it and you can see these little, you know, hams just kind of in the rafters. We won't talk about that. 27:00 Alright, we'll see you later. So 27:01 yeah, I want to talk about Yeah, no, I have my opinion on that. 27:05 Well, let's go ahead we'll come back Let's taste I don't know let's let's definitely taste I kind of want you to kind of talk us through, you know what, what we have and like what we're pairing it with. We already talked about what we what we have and then we went on, despite what your brothers 27:16 told you. So what are we left or so let's go with the front one, the one closest to you. This is from the hammer. This is an 18 to 20 month old hand it's called a tin Shuto. So I'm like Fred. I like to hold it up. I like to see the marbling in it. Oh wow, I've never done a efficient Oh wow. 27:33 Can you imagine being do i mean i don't know if I've ever gone to a restaurant and then like I never seen anyone, 27:38 anybody. I don't do that in a restaurant. They bring a light to this and make me a flashlight. 27:42 That smell I mean, I guess like I'm not using 27:44 this particular ham has huge Parmesan cheese note to me, but it also has that very Porky note that barnyard note that I love Parmesan cheese is definitely there on Yeah, for sure. And it's like to lay it right on my tongue. 27:56 I've also I don't think I've ever gone through and like tried to I mean, dude, I'm assuming since you do this and you judge you try to do the palate tasting and trainings like it's the same way you do with a bourbon you're sitting there you're looking at the color you're looking and you're actually smelling it you're nosing it the same way you would do with a whiskey or something like that. 28:12 Believe it or not the way they judge ham contests you don't see the internal part of the ham it's never cut to look at it is in Italy they typically use a horse's cannon bone and they kind of sharpen it down to a point in they stick it into the near the H bone of the ham to see if the thing is properly cured because you know instantly about that aroma that comes out a stick it in the stick through their nose and say yea or nay. And that's one of the criteria for judging here in Kentucky is is that thing properly cured and so you put it in a couple of parts of it the Beavis and Butthead joke in the butt face of the ham. And so they're checking on aroma. They're checking on appearance, how it's trimmed. Typically a country ham is smoked so that The way that is colored is important they don't want they don't want to just super mahogany like Western Kentucky cares will do that sometimes it's not 29:09 a favorable the typical to use mahogany wood for no or they use all different okay oak is really common 29:15 I'm sorry hickory Hickory, Hickory. Okay. So yeah but it's much more superficial than you would think they'll probably palpate it you know smash around some but it's not nearly as intense as you might think. But taste that with the toasted which is on the left you know it's gonna love This is Lauren when she added this guy's like smacking our lips we're gonna do and 29:36 she's always never do that. 29:39 I sound effects 29:40 is if this didn't have enough brown sugar on its own. It's really bumps it up. Andrea Wilson at makers not talk about when we do these pairings we want to compliment, contrast or elevate when we make a pairing. Compliment means they go well together. Contrast means they make each other interesting. Elevate means each makes the other better. And I think this is a 30:05 pairing appearing that elevates so why go with the the toasted on this one? What was the? What was the significance behind that one just 30:13 it's a simple approachable whiskey. I mean, it's it Who doesn't like toasted? It's not my favorite of the mixtures line but I really really like it. And it just pairs well with food. I've paired with a lot of foods and you think you guys can jump in on this with me, but for some reason, their line the mixtures line pairs better than any and I'm thinking that there are two things that are noticeably different from everything else we've done. And that's low barrier entry proof and low proof in the bottle. And for some reason that seems to result in a really good pairing food. I don't know if you've ever thought that through But 30:51 no, I mean, I guess with alcohol overpower. Yeah, I would say that's probably 30:56 but I think everyone's different to you know, some people have you know, burned their power. What's out they need that barrel proof all the time. I wanted to ask you a question about about like the the the the sliced country ham always feels sticker to me then prosciutto and I when I was in I was in Italy and I was at a price Judo place and they had me go up go behind and cut they they let me cut and I used actually did the bone and when I cut they were like you're too thick Get out of here. So it wasn't that thick it was like this but so why why what's the difference between like you know the standards of the thickness? 31:40 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family Traditional life any opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine, and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs. Next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer racquel ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some two bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 32:49 What's the difference between like, you know the standards of the thickness In contrast, I think it's a great question 32:57 in the United States and certainly in the south. In United States where country ham is most prevalent people don't eat it and people I say eat it raw No not yet rots cured it is chemically and physically transformed into a shelf stable product so it's cured it's not raw it My mother was one of many who just abused ham country ham and would cook it to you probably had it Ryan in Barcelona baseball leather consistency and intensify the salt it was just overwhelming absolutely no fun but when I did this book I can't tell you how many people how many cures did not like it like this. They they thought that this is kind of like it with a little red add gravy or whatever and like this is the best expression Yeah, this is the barrel proof barrel strength expression of their product 33:50 or essentially throw it in a sandwich with tomato and you know let us in pickles. 33:54 Well done like well yeah done like that. I've enjoyed it too. It Nancy nuisance place I think I posted a photo A couple days ago of it but yeah Fred This is the shark eatery cut that really shows to me respects the the product and its natural best and did you cut it with I not like you're talking about like off the the hammer itself I'd still be doing it to try to get these things done you got to be an expert or an expert to do that I can do it but I'm slow I have a commercial slicer in my house. Oh 34:24 nice and then I know what I'm getting at Costco next commercials 34:29 I'll help you find one on the on the US market will be a lot better go where one out with a ham 34:33 I got a question after you cut yes or no because it's cured do you have to do anything to like seal it to preserve it or how do you preserve it after you've already cut into it? 34:42 Well, before we started you probably saw me taking it out of those vacuum packages that just do that but 34:47 oh you and I'm talking about the actual whole ham. What do you do with that after? 34:52 I like to break it down into as large sections of muscle as I can both to make it easier to slice But to do is you say get it into a vacuum package and and seal it that way so that the more muscle integrity you have the better it's going to be preserved I can keep them in a refrigerator or a freezer for a long long period of time and they're fine 35:13 What size do these typically come in when say you want to go buy like a hammer 35:17 so a country ham depending on the maker or the cure, I should say starts out at about 20 to 23 pounds green weight is Joe recall that to green that seems to be industry and industry time. And what's that? What's that mean though? It means fresh. Yeah, fresh 35:35 jiggling way so it's basically like trying to buy like an eight ounce filet or an eight ounce steak and then you cook it and then it 35:40 but that's been that's probably been dry aged for a little while so that this this thing was only King you know, 48 hours ago. 35:46 All right then. So remember my role and stray from butter dogs. It was just it was raising them. Put them on a truck and say goodbye. Give me the check. Yeah, once they were done, I was don't name them. I did name a couple of 35:59 yeah But But yeah, they'll they'll shrink to about if they start out at 22. There'll be ready it, you know, at about a year at 17 pounds so they lose. That's their Angel share, you know them losing that moisture to intensify the flavors that are inside the ham and to trigger I'm trying to think of the garden it's an enzymatic reaction that that really makes the meat shelf stable. All that works together and it works together because the place we live just like bourbon is so good here because of our climate. The same thing happens to hams that you know that once you hang them outside and let them be subject to the weather. It's amazing. Now there's not that many places in the world that you can do this. 36:44 Well I've never I've always wanted to get into like curing my own ham or something like that. Because I know a few people and a few different bourbon groups and that's like one of their kind of like side projects or side hobbies assisting 36:55 at 89 guy yeah, he's got some good ones going 36:58 yeah. So with the One 37:00 of those in my refrigerator home All right, 37:02 perfect. So I mean, so talk, I mean, because I don't even know like, even the process of how you would even start doing that, hey, you'd have to require the leg, but be like, what, what's that? What's the next step in that process? 37:13 It's it's pretty crude, frankly, it's, you trim the trim away certain parts of the hand to make it look good. And you rub the hell out of it with carrying salt. You know, I mean, you're sticking in every little nook and cranny because you want to get that salt in there to penetrate to the bone and push the way with and push the water out essentially. As cures would say it's a race to the bone if if, if bacteria gets to the bone of the hand first, you've lost your ham if if salt gets there first you've got a cured ham. And what it does, basically is created by getting the water out it starves the bacteria, that's what they need to thrive. And that's all the salt does is pushes it out. And of course flavors it very deal 37:58 to I just did the second premise. I'm sorry I jumped ahead 38:01 I couldn't I did it too oh my god it's perfect oh my god i mean it was it was funny like going into this you know I have a I have a little bit of I don't want to say a criticism but I have a little bit of that that kind of I hold back a little bit be like oh can you really pair like ham and bourbon together holy shit yeah you can 38:20 say that's so fun about this is to see that happen and people you know the scales fall from their eyes they go really 38:27 you can do this well I mean it's in I think it kind of just gives you a little bit more you know a benefit to hear to say like okay, you were able to show me like for me to sit there and say like, I don't even know where I would go and find a different kinds of handy and start experimenting with around here. But if I did, and I came down here my basement I started pulling, you know, Jefferson's reserve, I started pulling Booker's I pulled you know, whatever, you name it across the line and tried to figure out like, how did these pair I don't really know if I'd be able to do that. So I guess when you're doing this, what are some of those new wants his or flavors in a ham or a bourbon that you're trying to pair with a particular Wang Kenny. I wish I could French it up and give you some fascinating answer. But it is mostly trial and error. But But the key 39:14 attribute that I want from the ham to actually from a country ham is fat content to coat the palette and smoke a little bit of smoke in there. Salt is everywhere it doesn't matter the to AI know how to cut the the hand correctly so choose correctly. So really it's it's fat. And one of the virtues of a whiskey that pairs well is that it cleanses the palate. Yeah, and and this this so what we tasted here just a second ago that Fred and Kenny cheated on wisely. was a 24 month old Broadbent country ham. Yeah, broadband done from a Berkshire hog. Yeah, Burke charade. Yeah. And it's just as there's no app That's it. This is one the the the company's won the Kentucky State Fair country ham championship 18 times out of 53 or so. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

You might be hearing people in your personal life for on social media talking about how businesses need to stop selling because it's just mean and insensitive. Well I've got news for you, these people are way off the mark and in this episode, I'm going to go into this so you can get a new perspective on this. For most of us, when we hear the term "salesperson," we default to visions of a sleazy fast talker who is self-centered, egotistical and willing to lie to accomplish their goals — often at the expense of the customer’s needs. There a only a few, "real" issues here and you need to know what they are so you can spot them in your own business. I'm giving you 4 steps to help you overcome this useless thinking. Listen in now... ____________________________ Links mentioned in this podcast. The 6-Figure, Conscious Entrepreneur Community The "Sales & Confidence Mastery" Elite Mastermind Group ____________________________ I'm always happy to bring you information each week to fuel your entrepreneurial soul. Stop by next week for another great episode and be sure to take a moment to give this podcast a 5 start rating. Hi, I'm Sharon Lee, a Life Coach & Business Growth Expert | Messaging, Mindset & Sales Expert "Let your mind help you breakthrough to success." Grab your free consultation call with me to learn how we can work together to create the transformation in your life or business. Click Here. >>> Free Consultation Call http://www.fearlesspursuits.com/ _____________________________ Let's connect! Instagram: @FearlessPursuits Facebook: Fearless Pursuits

I know you want to make money in your business but you may be second-guessing yourself as to whether or not you should continue promoting. I'm hearing a lot of people talk about how "no one is spending money". Well I've got news for you! People ARE spending money and if you aren't actively out there promoting... the "right way", then your competitors will be light years ahead of you. One thing is for sure, everything has changed because of this pandemic and people are responding differently SO that means YOU have to respond differently. If you have not learned how to promote and to sell in a crisis, you NEED to listen to this podcast and you NEED to get in my new elite mastermind. Did you get on my masterclass in my group on how to do that? If you didn't, no worries. Head over to Facebook and join. For now, listen to the gold nuggets that I'm offering in the podcast and take good notes because it's jam-packed full of information to help you promote and sell in a crisis. ____________________________ Link mentioned in this podcast episode: The 6-Figure, Conscious Entrepreneur Community The "Sales & Confidence Mastery" Elite Mastermind Group ____________________________ I'm always happy to bring you information each week to fuel your entrepreneurial soul. Stop by next week for another great episode and be sure to take a moment to give this podcast a 5 start rating. Hi, I'm Sharon Lee, a Life Coach & Business Growth Expert | Messaging, Mindset & Sales Expert "Let your mind help you breakthrough to success." Grab your free consultation call with me to learn how we can work together to create the transformation in your life or business. Click Here. >>> Free Consultation Call http://www.fearlesspursuits.com/ _____________________________ Let's connect! Instagram: @FearlessPursuits Facebook: Fearless Pursuits Sponsorships: off for this episode

How did Chili Piper grow to become one of the hottest new sales software providers, and what would the team do differently if they had to start all over again? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Chili Piper Founder and CEO Nicolas Vandenberghe shares the story of growing his company, from his early days bootstrapping, to what he is doing now that he has secured venture capital funding, and what he would do differently if he had to start over again today. One of the biggest things Nicolas would change is his approach to marketing. Listen to the podcast to learn why he would have started investing in marketing much earlier than he actually did, and how he thinks that would have changed the company's growth trajectory. Highlights from my conversation with Nicolas include: Nicolas started Chili Piper to help solve the problem of companies not booking meetings with interested inbound leads. The solution he developed helps his customer double their bookings. Nicolas credits his early success to achieving product-market fit quickly. The company gained traction in the US market by using what it calls the "bullseye" strategy, which involved targeting highly influential customers to establish social proof. This strategy was successful in helping Chili Piper bootstrap its initial growth. Now that the company has secured venture capital funding and Nicolas needs to scale it, he wishes he had made a larger investment in marketing earlier. Chili Piper calls the category in which it plays "buyer enablement" and is focused on creating products that are so good, buyers will demand to switch to them. This is how Nicolas believes they will unseat the incumbent providers, like Microsoft and Google, that their prospective customers currently rely on.  Resources from this episode: Visit the Chili Piper website Listen to the podcast to learn why startups should invest in marketing early, and how even an unknown startup can take on the industry giants. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth and I'm your host, and this week my guest is Nicolas Vandenberghe, who's the CEO and co-founder of Chili Piper. Welcome, Nicolas. Nicolas Vandenberghe (Guest): Thanks. I'm happy to be here. Nicolas and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I’m excited to have you here. I've been sort of watching you and your company for a few years now and I have a personal passion for startups. It's something that I've invested a lot of my time in, and I really especially love following startups that bootstrap for some of their time and find success, so I'm really excited to talk to you about that, and how you fueled your growth, and what the company does. About Nicolas Vandenberghe and Chili Piper Kathleen: So let's actually start out, if you would, by having you tell my guests a little bit more about yourself, your background and story, because that's pretty interesting as well, and Chili Piper and what the company does. Nicolas: Sure. I'm originally French, as I'm sure everybody will guess. I came to the US in the mid '90s. I went to Stanford Business School with the idea of traveling the world, and when I was there I met Steve Jobs. He was invited to our class. He sat on the floor. At that time he was CEO of Next, going next to nowhere. It was an amazing experience and I thought, "That's what I want to be when I grow up. I want to be like him, doing tech companies." And so I proceeded to do that and I've done several startups, not quite as successful as Apple, I must say, but enough success to be happy and done three different startups. I also had spent a lot of time in sales, so I funded my studies. I say that I sold newspapers in the streets of Paris. It's a true story. I am very proud of it because I outsold everybody else; this newspaper that sold more than anybody else. So I have a passion for sales and more recently I got to know the world of sales is going to be completely changed. Digital is going to have a big influence and it hasn't happened yet. Right now we are still at the stage where records have been put in place. That's what you call CRM. But it's a different role for crossing the chasm and I make a distinction between a system of records and system of action. The system of action is what should be used to do your job, and that is yet to be invented. So that is the business of Chili Pepper is to say we're going to be the company that will bring central revenue to the scene. Kathleen: I love that, and it's one of the reasons I was excited to talk to you. I've been working in marketing and actually sales, I've been in sales roles as well for a long time, and technology and tech stacks have become an increasingly important part of the daily lives of anybody who's in marketing or sales. It might just be me, but I feel like on the marketing side, there have been just substantial advancements in making the technology a lot more user friendly, but on the sales side, maybe not as much, for the most part. You see that with CRMs and systems of records as you referred to them. Things like salesforce.com. Everyone I talk with kind of both loves it and hates it, and the problem with these platforms, if they're not user friendly, is they don't get used. Your tech stack is only as good as the decisions of the person who is meant to be using it. If they choose to use something else, then it's garbage in and garbage out. So that's my little rant but what I like about- Nicolas: You're absolutely right, and still to this day the service is so bad that these days you have companies saying, "If you don't put your data in Salesforce, I won't pay your commission." It's like threats and punishments to use the software. I mean, imagine if I had to tell my kids, "If you don't use your iPhone, I won't give you any candies." Kathleen: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Nicolas: Right. That's right. Kathleen: It's ridiculous that we're in that position. Yeah. Nicolas: That's why I'm trying to change the system. An introduction to Chili Piper Kathleen: I read an interesting article that said that today every individual, marketer, and salesperson is their own CIO because of this exact problem. Because as a company, you can choose to put software in place but every individual person on that team is going to decide what software they're actually going to use. If there's friction in the process, they're going to find a way around it. It's sort of like water. When water hits an obstacle, it goes around it and carves a new river. And I think that's what people do with software. So tell me a little bit about exactly the problems that Chili Piper solves for because you mentioned that it's great for revenue teams, but what exactly does it do? Nicolas: Yeah, so I started the company to help sales people, and we accidentally stumbled into inbound process. It's something relevant to this podcast. What's happening is we started with helping people schedule their meetings. So especially with complex situations where there's a big SDR team booking a lot of meetings for a big company team, which they should book with the routing being fair with a round robin distribution. So that's how we get started. And I was talking to some of our customers and saying, "What's your job?" and they say, "I am an inbound SDR, and what do you do?" "Some people come to the website, marketing people spend a lot of money to bring them to the website. There's a form to request a demo or talk to somebody. I submit the form and my job is to call them and to book that meeting." I said, "How is that going for you?" and they said, "It's going great. We're converting at 40%." To which I said, "Wait a minute, you're telling me that out of a hundred people who want to have a meeting, only 40 of them get a meeting? Because somewhere they got lost?" That seems completely crazy to me but it seems to be accepted in the industry. That's what it is. You have a 40% conversion rate inbound, you're doing great. I didn't even have the... beat yourself up! I don't want to touch it. I'm 40% right. Thinking like it would be the ultimate achievement. So we decided to build a solution for that and what we did is a small piece of JavaScript that companies put in their webpage, in their form, and when the form is submitted, we get the data from the form. We can augment the data with solutions like ZoomInfo and Clearbit, these kinds of data sources. And in real time, based on this data, we need to find the right rep who should handle that prospect. We can dial the rep and dial the prospect and connect them in real time or we can retrieve the calendar and show options of the prospect and book a time. So instead of saying, "Thank you I need to call you," say, "Just pick a time that works for you," they pick a time they're all set. That seems obvious, but we are the first - and only to this day - company doing it. When I launched it I said, "That seems too obvious to be true. I must be missing something." It turned out I wasn't. All of our customers doubled their conversion rates. We had people at 80% conversion, a lot of people at 70% conversion. We had a company that was at 23% and went up 55% which is a very high volume. So it just works. It was just a matter of innovating, coming up with a new way to do things. The reason why it stayed at that level for so long is because we were just at the junction between the marketing and sales. So marketing thought we were bringing a good job bringing a lot of leads. Sales thought we were doing a good job filling up the leads. The reference point was outbound, right, so all these companies you reach, you convert maybe 10% percent of meetings. In inbound we were getting 40%; that looked good. That was a disconnect, so we're putting that all together with all inbound solutions to do this, handle it very efficiently and improve conversion rates. Kathleen: It's really genius and it's funny how you mentioned that nobody thought of it sooner. You know, it makes me think of an experience that I recently had as a buyer, and I should preface this in saying that you referred to this under the umbrella of buyer enablement because I do think it's all about giving the buyer choices and allowing them to choose the path that they want to take, and not then putting things in their way. It makes me think of, I was recently looking to vet agencies that do pay-per-click marketing and I went on to a website of a particular agency who I will not name and they had sort of like a quiz that they needed me to fill out instead of a contact us form, and I get the logic behind it so I filled out the quiz even though I was sort of annoyed. I just wanted to talk to somebody and then at the end of the quiz, it was like, "We'll get in touch with you to set up a meeting," and I thought, "Well, no." Now I really want to talk to somebody and there was no way for me to go to any kind of a contact form or find any phone number. It's interesting. By the time they emailed me to set up the meeting, I had already found somebody else that I was really happy with. So there's like a perfect example of how the 60% of people who can fill out a form, who say they want to talk to you and then don't actually turn into a viable, bottom of the funnel lead/opportunity, because you've allowed that time in between to be filled with another solution, or they've talked themselves out of purchasing, which I'm sure happens a lot. But it's frustrating. It's frustrating as a buyer. Nicolas: It's crazy, it's crazy. Something similar happened to me. I submitted a form to talk to somebody at LinkedIn. At the time, it was a while back, I wanted to buy a license of their solution, and you had to talk to a sales person, so I submitted the form and they said, "Somebody is going to call you," and to my knowledge, nobody did call me. It turned out that two weeks later, it's not that somebody did call me the next day, but it was a 408 number and I got my setting that it go straight to voicemail, because I didn't know the number, and so I never knew that somebody had called. And it doesn't make sense these days. So with our solution, a company has the option to connect in real time. We even have what we call real time video. So if you... it's used a lot by companies for their in-app solutions, so if they're the free service, or paid service, somebody wants to talk to somebody, the most efficient in-app format for conversation is Zoom Video, because you can see each other, you can share your screen you can really engage with others. We have a real time Zoom Video connection, where you can submit a form and say, "I need to talk to somebody," boom, so here is your Zoom Video link and you're connected to somebody over Zoom. So, that's such a better experience for the potential buyer to be in real time connected to Zoom Video as opposed to waiting and wondering when they're going to be reached out to. Kathleen: I want to make sure I understand. Are you telling me... I get that you guys through this JavaScript code can do this on a website, but you're saying that in-app, somebody can also use Chili Piper and immediately spin up a Zoom conversation with... Nicolas: That's right. Kathleen: That's a game changer. I mean, just like when you talk about trial to customer conversions and adoption and eliminating those friction points early in experience... that's amazing. I did not realize that it did that, which is very very cool. Nicolas: Yeah. I think we need to market it a little bit better. Kathleen: Well, there you go, we're talking about it on the podcast. When should startups invest in marketing? Kathleen: One of the things I am fascinated by is your earlier story with the company, when it first started, because, as I mentioned, I work with a lot of start-ups. I am a head of marketing for a start-up right now, and the conversation always revolves around, in those early days, before you have really deep pockets or VCs have thrown a lot of money at you, what should the approach to marketing be? I feel like there's really two schools of thought from the founders I've met. Either they believe in throwing all their money and resources at sales and having an entirely sales led organization and they defer marketing until after they get a lot of investment money, or they really really believe in marketing and make an early investment in content and building out their top of the funnel, etc. And that's a bit more of a long game but it's a leap of faith so I'm sure there's an in between but I seem to talk to those two people who fall in those two courts. So I'd love to hear what your experience was, because you were successful in your early days bootstrapping. Nicolas: That's a great way to put it, and I will say that I think the right approach is to do the second, the all in, in marketing. I mistakenly did the first and went to sales, so I'm here to exemplify the mistake. We did something right at the beginning -- the strategy that I call the "Bull's eye." When we came up with the first product -- and the first product was around handoff between teams, so distributing between SDRs and account executives -- we had a company come to us and say, "I have this problem, can you solve it for us?" And so the product market fit was easy because somebody came and said, "I have this problem", and we check if other companies have this problem, and we finally did, and so there was no question of having an idea and- Kathleen: I was going to say, because that's the danger of having that one customer who's the squeaky wheel and you build out a product just for them only to find out nobody else wants it. Nicolas: Right, right, so the worst part of that, we actually went to SaaStr. Only SaaS companies, and I went around and said, "Do you have that problem?", "Yes", "Do you have that problem?", "Yes", so more than half had that problem. Then we did something that was inspired by the fashion industry and namely I was exposed to, in the early 2000s, Louis Vuitton, the luxury brand, built their business in the U.S. They targeted the most influential people in the world, the celebrities, so they were not so well known in the U.S. except for a few people. They went to famous actresses and got them free bags and free jewels, so these actresses were photographed. That was the center of the bull's eye. From there, they went to what they call socialites. In every city there are people who are more visible than others. They're social, they're visible. They targeted these people, and from there they extended it. So it was a top down, concentric circle. That worked really well and we did the same and thought, "Okay, which companies are the most influential in our space?" Obviously it's not Beyonce that helps you sell software. It's companies like Square, Greenhouse in New York, Segment in the bay area -- the companies that people look up to and say, "These guys know what they're doing when it comes to sales and marketing." So we targeted these companies. It may have taken longer to get the business from them, but once got the business, other companies came to us and that built our early inbound flow from these companies saying, "Hey I booked with Discover Org," "I booked with Discover Org, that was awesome, that was the same experience," "I booked with Segment and it was great, I just did one yesterday. That was a good experience." So that's what did well to get started to build the foundations. And back to your question from there, what we should have done was build the marketing and expand it, our content and case studies. Instead, what we did is extend our sales team, so that worked. Every rep paid for themselves. We were able to bootstrap. We passed two million without funding. It worked well but now two years later we think, "Well we have to build these foundations," because if you want to grow to the hundreds of millions in revenues, you can not do it without a strong brand, and a strong marketing presence, so we waited too long to build marketing foundations at the outset. Kathleen: This is such an interesting conversation to me and I appreciate your candor in saying you would have done it differently, but I think if somebody is listening they might be thinking, "He says that but they were successful," and so I'm curious what you think would have been different had you started marketing earlier? Would there have been a different outcome or would it have been the pace that would have changed? Nicolas: I expect that we would have grown faster. We typically double over a year, and  expect that we would have done even better than that. You have to think, the number one problem for us starters is product market fit. If our customers more than double their conversion, they have a return investment that is massive. That's obviously the first place to get to, but once we have that then the question becomes, how fast can I go and what's the most effective way to go so for all you listeners, you can bypass the product market fit. The question we're addressing now is how to go from there and the marketing investment is more leverage, so for the same investment, you're able to serve more people. Initially it doesn't work, but when it does work then you have more leverage right there. A piece of content can reach 20,000 viewers. A rep can not be in touch with 20,000 viewers at the same amount of time. That's the leverage you need to get and how you're able to grow at 3x or 4x instead of 2x because you get this leverage from marketing, that's big. We just hired a CMO a few months back, and we're putting all these things in place. That's why I say, we'll see if it all happens, but I have a lot of trust in our CMO and his team to make it happen. I can see he is already putting in the information and I can see how it makes sense. About the "bullseye" strategy Kathleen: Well I definitely think you have a good team, I did a little bit of stalking on LinkedIn to see who was on your marketing team and it looks like a really qualified group of people so I'm sure you're going to see fantastic results from that. I want to go back to something you said earlier, about the bullseye strategy. That's interesting to me because you talked about how Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy used that to bring Louis Vuitton into the US. I've seen it also with one of the people that I sort of idolize who is Sara Blakely, who is the founder of Spanx, she did the same thing. She sent products to Oprah and other people like that. In some respects, that can be really risky, and those are examples of product companies, but if you're sending product to somebody you don't really know, if they're going to do anything with it, if they're going to evangelize it... In your case it was going after really high value accounts. While it's one thing to say, "We're going to do this, we're going to land the biggest fish in the industry," it's another thing to make it happen. So, I am curious, did you have another approach, or what did you do in those early days that you were able to get those meetings, especially as a company, at the time, that these other companies haven't heard of. Nicolas: Yeah, it's actually not so much high value accounts we went after, it's highly visible accounts. It's a strong difference. You get a lot more licences from selling to, say, I am thinking of an example, HP, than you get from selling to Segment. Both are costumers actually, and HP came much later, so we got a lot of licenses. Equal industries, these days. Marketers look up to Segment to what they should do much more than HP, HP is known for other things. The target was not so much larger deals, it was very much who do people look up to. It turned out that you think that, "Well how did you get about getting these costumers," people look up to these companies because they are forward thinking, and because they are forward thinking, they are interested in trying new tech. I remember Segment had this French guy, Gillaume Cabane, and there was this discussion and he pushed back and I said “Hey Guillaume, you're super, and on the leading edge. Surely if I am right, you don't want to have missed it." He said, " Okay, fine we'll do an AB test", and boom, we did an AB test, he went across 61%, it was super successful. He led a team that was known in the industry as forward thinking because he would try new things. That helped us, because we would go to companies that would try new things, because they would implement these practices, and to implement these practices you have to take some risks. You have to go and squeeze new solutions, you have to explore, you have to be willing to try new things. So that's how we did it, and more practically, since...we implemented, and immediately, I did most of this in person. I actually went to events, meet ups and met in person in the early days. It's not really scalable, but in the early days that's the best way to do it. Nobody knows who you are, if you email campaigned people will ignore it, so you have to go in person and engage in person, and try. Once you get a few reference accounts, of course the game changes, and you can go online. How Chili Piper gets customer success stories Kathleen: Well, it definitely seems to be working because, I think, when Chili Piper came on my radar screen, I actually heard Udi Ledergore from Gong talking about some of the results they have gotten. I am curious, you're going after these highly visible accounts, they're having some success. Do you have a particular way of approaching them and asking that they talk about those success stories? Nicolas: Yes, Udi is a great guy and Gong is definitely one of the visible accounts that we love. We do case studies. We have a case study with Gong, it's on our website. We have one with Grow. We have one with Segment. So we definitely package it as success. Then we ask them to share with other companies in the community. Often you have questions in the community say, what should I use, partner with them? That's something we could have done better, but we did pay attention to make sure that these champions would serve as references and would talk about us through case studies, and other type of discussions. How Chili Piper is approaching marketing today Kathleen: Now, you got your first round of funding last spring, was it April of 2019? Nicolas: Yeah. Kathleen: Since then, you've gone on to hire some folks for the marketing team, you mentioned you have a new CMO, and I saw a few other roles. How big is the marketing team today? Nicolas: We just hired....It's four people now. Kathleen: Okay. As you think about looking forward, what is your approach to marketing, what are you looking for in the year ahead? Are there particular things that the company is focused on in terms of building its brand, its content, etc.? Nicolas: Yes. When we took money last year, we were cash positive, so we didn't need the money from the existing business. What we wanted to do was to invest in product development because we developed the new IDs that we thought were mature enough to bring to market, or to start building. I should preface with that our inbound solution is growing. Of course we want to keep growing the business. We're about to launch a very bold take on inbox, so we're taking on Microsoft, Outlook and Gmail. With the new inbox, the difference is a collaborative inbox. The idea that revenue teams will be able to, we syndicate account-related emails across email boxes, so if you take a common account, you can see everything being discussed within the account, directly in the inbox. Let's just say an account, let's say Gong, so if it's just for Gong, I'll see every email that's been sent to Gong, every meeting with Gong directly into my box from everybody. Then I can chat, comment on it, so ask somebody, "Hey, what did you do, say, when you talk to him at that meeting?" It's a collaborative inbox. We think it's exactly the type of approach that sales and revenue teams need, especially the account manager, or CS. We need to know whether that's happened before. We're about to launch that, and back to your question, we have this marketing team of four, what do we expect from the year? Well we have this dual mission of building the business around our solution. As you pointed out, not everybody knows about everything we do, like the in-app solution. And start to position that new product line around our inbox, our collaborative inbox and revenue teams. It's a lot to do. We are going to invest in content because we see that, obviously content marketing stuff works well, but in case there are lot of questions from companies, a lot of the things we do are new, leading edge, the idea of specializing revenue teams... What should the account managers do, what should the CS, costumer success do, how should the head off be done, how to be the best account manager of the best CS? We are fortunate to have a lot of customers who are very smart and have great ideas, so we can bring these ideas, write them up and bring this content. That's a big piece of what you're going to do in the future to lead the change... We said earlier on in the podcast, I'm a big believer that sales and revenues are going to be completely transformed with a new set of tools, so we want to make sure that we evangelize that. How Gong is building the "buyer enablement" category Kathleen: Now, it's interesting to me, because you coined this term buyer enablement and a lot of what you're doing, as you explained rightfully, is new. It's something that hasn't been done before. This inbox, totally different than what anybody has constructed. You know some of the functionality that you have in your initial tools, totally different. I am selfishly going to ask you this because I am fascinated by the topic of category creation. So, as a smaller company, you're thinking about this concept of buyer enablement. I assume you're also talking to analysts, companies like Gartner or Forrester, what have you? How do you look at that, because everything I've read, and I've researched, and seen about category creation, it's an incredibly difficult play. But if you can pull it off, it can be huge. But it's not a quick thing to build a category. I just would love to hear your thinking about that, and how much of your strategy revolves around that term, buyer enablement, which you're really coining and introducing into the market, versus drafting off of existing searches and things like that. Nicolas: I'm smiling because I had a long discussion with our CMO yesterday about the category creation and the role of analysts. You have to think that an analyst is not going to come up with an innovation that's in your category currently. An analyst is not going to say that, "the new way of doing inbox is collaborative inbox, and this is the new category, and players come play in my new category." Kathleen: Right. Nicolas: Their job is to observe where the market is going and say, "Oh there is something new happening there, it's real," and, "I'm going to call this category, I'm going to explain it within there." That's typically useful in crossing the chasm when you're moving to mainstream. When you move to mainstream, you need this clear explanation of what it is about, but when you build a category you're not at that stage, moving to mainstream, you're at the other stage, the early state. Our focus is to provide a solution to an existing problem. It's going to sound boring, but the fact that this problem is big enough that it's worthy enough of being labeled its own category is unintentional. We think that sales people should have better tools, and we think that inbox and calendar, we are also going to launch Chili Calendar, should be specialized for them. Because it works, we're going to solve the problem, and we're going to help them coverup their revenues better. Hopefully someday Forrester, one of our costumers is Forrester, will call that a new category, will put us in the right quadrant. It works the other way. Once we’ve done it, they'll say, "This is what's happening and we'll do it," so for now we focus on the solving the problem. It's not as hard as it seems in a sense to create a category because if the problem is real, you're going to have real movement in the market. A great example, that has happened recently, is sales engagement. Sales engagement is actually, in effect, is synonymous with sales development, it's the tool for sales development. Their job is to prospect and to engage the initial engagement. A bunch of companies can request tools early on in to us, CalTAP and Yesware, they were doing templates. Then SalesLoft and Outreach which came with a better way to do it, which was cadences, multi-touch cadences, it's the right tool for this team. They did that tool. Then they got a lot of costumers, high growth. Somebody, I'm not sure who, called it sales engagement. They thought, "Oh, that makes sense, I like it," and then the category was born, but it didn't come the other way around, it didn't come the other way around. So buyer involvement is a term we've used because we strongly believe that the focus has switched on the buyer, and that's what we do with our inbound solutions. You can't let your buyer wait two hours or two days to get that. It’s a focus, but it’s more of a philosophy. We don't expect that somebody is going to come up and call this category buyer enablement. Some day the category will be called, and as a mission, we hope that we'll be in the right quadrant when that happens. Kathleen: I think that's the right way to look at it, because everything I've seen is that even if an analyst sees it as a new category, they're not going to spend the time to coin it as such until there is more than one player in it. You can't have a category with only one company, at least in the eyes in most analyst firms. Nicolas: Yeah. How to unseat the incumbent solution provider? Kathleen: I think you're right. Last question, and then we'll kind of move into the wrap up. The thing that you're talking about doing, especially some of these new products around inbox start to get into the territory of taking on very well entrenched existing tools. If I'm an enterprise level sales person, I have an inbox already, well I mean if I am anybody these days I have an inbox. Nicolas: Yeah. Kathleen: Often, in these larger organizations, it's generally Outlook, it's Gmail, and these platform, Google, Microsoft, have their tentacles into just about every aspect of the business. So, how are you accounting for the fact that there is going to be an incumbent product in everyone's hand already, and does what you're building play with these other things, or how does that work, because that would seem very daunting? Nicolas: That is a great question and it's for sure that the feedback we're getting from a lot of people, especially in the investing communities, are people who've never switched from our product, they get so attached to our product. Kathleen: Well I don't know about that, Outlook is like SalesForce, people love to hate it. Nicolas: You must be a Mac person because it doesn't work very... But the world has changed. Kathleen: Yeah. Nicolas: People adopt new tools much faster than they ever did. You see this on the iPhone, the level reduction, but look at Slack. There was email, there were also a bunch of messaging solutions like Skype and PICCHAT, but they came up with a better one, and people switched must faster than they used to. It's up to us to come with a solution where the benefit is so obvious, it's a better way to do it, that people will switch intimidatingly. That is much less of a risk than the investing communities sees, because people do switch. If in the inbox, this company called Superhuman that launched, say took after the inbox, and they've been successful. Now there are so many new apps that users are accustomed trying new apps, changing new apps, and if it's better, they will do it. The job is to do something that is obviously better, and that's the challenge. If we do, then companies will switch, and usually will switch. Kathleen: You just said something interesting, and this is my follow up question. Users might switch. This goes back to how we started the whole conversation about every person being their own CIO, because, especially in larger enterprise, I could see a sales rep saying, "Oh, I want to use this." But at the end of the day if you want to get enterprise adoption, particularly for something like inbox, isn't the CIO, or the head of IT the key decision maker in that process. Which is a different audience than maybe you've dealt with in the past so- Nicolas: Yeah, yeah, but there are two privileged citizens in the world, software developers and sales people. The software developer or sales person say, "I want that tool, nobody gets on their way," because you don't want to mess up your software development and you don't want to mess up your sales. The reason for that is because obviously the software developers build the product, and you want to make them happy, but sales people, they bring the revenues. If they say the tool is going to help them, then it's very measurable. That's the thing that's beautiful with our inbound solutions, that Chili Piper for the work sites. When conversion rates double, it's directly twice as much pipeline from inbound, the return investment is very easy to calculate. It's not the feel good solution where you think, "Oh. That is helpful." No, you have twice as much pipeline, and that's easy. So, same thing. When we launch our inbox, you're going to see shorter sales cycles and higher conversion rates. I mean obviously it will be more subtle, I don't expect that it will double conversion rates. It will be a few points, but it's a few points on your total revenue. So if you can increase 5% your revenue, then the company making $200,000,000, that's 10 million, we'll charge less than 10 million. Kathleen: Yeah. Nicolas: We'll all make money. Kathleen: Well I think you're probably right about software developers and sales people. I am just waiting for the day when the marketer becomes the privileged citizen as well. I have a feeling I shouldn't hold my breath. Nicolas: You're right, marketers on a budget also, but for some reason, they struggle a bit more. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah, yes. This is the path we choose though. Well, all right, so... Shifting gears, there are two question that I ask all of my guests and I would love to have what you have to say about these things. One is the core of what we talk about in this podcast, is inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that you really think is killing it right now with inbound marketing? Nicolas: Well, I am going to be boring and name the king, and the king is HubSpot. They've nailed inbound marketing. To a large extent, they've been so good that they've been able to hide the weaknesses of their product. It took the longest time to... But now they have a reasonably good marketing product, a reasonably poor sales product. They've written the book on it, and I think all the other companies that are doing well... A lot of companies have spun off of HubSpot and are doing well. In the case of Drift, they take the playbook, they replicate it, and it works for them. That's definitely the company I would mention. Kathleen: Okay. Well I've definitely heard those names, HubSpot and Drift, a lot on this podcast. The second question is, the biggest complaint I hear from marketers, or the biggest pain point I should say is that digital marketing is changing so quickly, mostly driven by technology. They feel like it's trying to drink from a fire hose to keep up with everything and to stay on top of latest developments. How do you personally stay on top of things? Nicolas: On top of all marketing and technology, all the tools are there? Kathleen: Right. Marketing, but also you're kind of in that sales and marketing technology space. Are there particular blogs, or podcasts, or people you follow? How do you stay up to date? Nicolas: Of course, since we're in the space, we want to know what's going on at anytime, so it's almost our job to stay open. I do that with all the tech, I was looking at whatever tools can help us. We have this concept of decision memo, so whenever we look at the particular piece... For example, I want to train my salespeople better right now. The first reflex we have in the company, at Chili Piper, is to say, "Is there a piece of software that could help us do that," and of course we’re biased, because we are software developers, but that's how we do it. That's the answer to your question, we go outbound looking for solutions. There'll be different places where we can find good advice. Podcasts are a great one, yours in particular. We listen to what other people do, say, and you learn a lot more from podcasts because people leave more practical description of what happens. Look at the vendor talk, often abstract. Then there are also online communities where people discuss the best tools, and we pay attention. Then we do, we take, random demos. Right now we are in the process of taking tons of demos from Learning Management Systems, for this particular solution. We have tech savvy people in the operation, that also makes a big difference. I see companies that don't invest in operations, or don't put the right people in operations, and they're held back by that choice. It's a super important opinion that all companies over sites get tech savvy strong people in their operations. These people are able to bring in new technology. Kathleen: Yeah. I think that makes a particularly big difference in the early days, when everyone has to be willing to roll their sleeves up, and not just strategize but do a lot of the work as well, and understanding how to use technology is very powerful for that. How to connect with Nicolas Kathleen: Well, we are coming to the top of the hour, so I wanted to make sure I ask you, if somebody wants to learn more about Chili Piper or reach out and connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do that. Nicolas: That is to come to our website, because we use our own tools. Chili Piper is a play on word, chili pepper, Piper as in pipeline, so it's C H I L I, Piper, Chili Piper, and if you request a meeting with us you'll see our technology in action. It will pop up for you so you will be able to book it. Kathleen: Great, I'll put that link in the show notes. Also, I didn't tell you I was going to do this, I also want to give just a small plug for Gipsy Time, which is another company that you are involved in founding. I just submitted my request to get in on the early access, it looks really cool, because one of my biggest problems is I have a million tabs open on my computer at any given time, plus Slack, plus inboxes, and it's super distracting, and it looks to me like you're solving that. Is that right? Nicolas: Thank you, I am really delighted to hear that. Yes, yes, it's a typical case of solving your own problem. I have ADHD, I have a focus problem, and these to-do lists, they keep accumulating tasks, and I needed to manage a way to do that. On the side, I did this other company, Gipsy Time, to help people focus. It's not about capturing the task in the long to-do list, it's about getting it done. We have the distraction blocking, where you can block, close all your tabs, and reopen them when you're finished. Make sure how much time you spend on something, make sure you spend the right amount of time. Did I tell you... When you requested that... Invited, it's very promising and it's helped me a lot in getting more done. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Well, I need it for sure, so I can't wait to get my invitation. Well, thank you so much for joining me this week, this has been so much fun, if you are listening, and you like what you heard, please head over to Apple Podcasts, and consider leaving in the podcast a five star review, that's how we get in front of new listeners. And, of course, if you know somebody else who is doing kick-ass inbound work tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thank you so much Nicolas, this was a ton of fun. Nicolas: Thank you, great fun, yes.

After watching the famous Netflix show LOVE IS BLIND, I decided to do an episode where we discuss the craziness of the show and try to decipher this complex word called LOVE. Can you truly fall in love in 3 days? Is love blind? Does appearance matter? Does age matter? Well I've got 2 guests on this episode to answers those daunting questions. ENJOY!!!! Follow LITTLE DOSE OF TAIWO on Spotify, as well as Instagram @ldot_podcast www.instagram.com/ldot_podcast You can also drop me an email and have a say on the topic for my next episode - ldotpodcast@gmail.com Available on Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/6uuzWJJM1VY85dT5ZKalLZ Apple Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/little-dose-of-taiwo/id1489862649?uo=4 Google podcast - https://www.google.com/podcasts?feed=aHR0cHM6Ly9hbmNob3IuZm0vcy9mNmY2YWU0L3BvZGNhc3QvcnNz THANK YOU FOR LISTENING

Well I've been gone for over a month at this point. I had to do some soul searching and figuring things out trying to decide what my next move was going to be. I'll be honest I didn't think I would come back to the podcast at one point but I found the more I didn't do it I began to miss it and that I needed some kind of normal in my life. Last week was by far the worst week in the history of weeks that I have ever had and it started with losing my step dad to cancer then that dang Rona virus hit and everyone lost there damn minds. So here's me trying to be "normal" and have at least something that I can look forward to doing everyday. Thanks for sticking with me and being such a great and amazing fan base that all of you are. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/nerdalert/support

Understanding the role of public relations as part of a beauty brand's marketing mix is a tough and sometimes confusing topic. What is PR? How is it different than other forms of advertising? What should I expect when I hire a PR agent or team? Well I've got a veteran in the space who is here to answer these questions and how beauty brands can successfully approach PR. Stephanie Scott-Bradshaw is an agency owner with more than a decade of experience supporting both large and indie beauty brands. You need this info in your life! Check out Stephanie on Instagram @StephScottRocks and her company @FirstAndLastPR.

How good are you at getting it all done? No Really! How do you balance career, family, hobbies, personal time and not go crazy? Well I've got the key to unlocking the myth about Balance..... And its only 2 simple words you already know and use. But its how you use them that makes all the difference. In todays episode I will discuss How to master these 2 words in 3 easy steps. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

"Well I've got thick skin and an elastic heart" Edstart (sponsored): https://edstart.com.au/. Use the code squiz2020 to receive a $200 cashback once your first school invoice of $5,000 or more is paid. Bushfires donation link: https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/bushfire-crisis-how-can-i-donate-and-help/11839842 Your shortcut to the US - Iran relationship: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/squizshortcuts/id1477008816?i=1000451204010The Squiz is a weekday Australian news podcast. We're your shortcut to being informed about international and Australian news.

Have you ever heard a song that touched your soul? Or sang a song that spoke to what you're going through? Well I've got 3 songs that did just that. On today's episode of Talk It Up with Tierra Monique we're going talk about the lesson in the song. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/talkitupwithtierramonique/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/talkitupwithtierramonique/support

In this final episode of the Erin & Andrew saga on "Shenanigans On Sheridan" Phill, Chris and Kayla listen to all the Shenanigans that happened at the family farm over the 4th of July, 2019. This episode has everything that makes a podcast successful: people talking and other people talking over them. I have to confess that I'm not too happy with how I recorded this trilogy of episodes. These were the first with more than three people and there are many things wrong with the recordings. First of all I used two microphones that have a lot of handling noise, also, I didn't have enough headsets so some people couldn't hear when they were breathing directly into the microphone or if the microphone was too far away from their mouths. Here's another thing I fucked up, there are 5 mics in play and we are in an untreated room. That means that I don't have any sound absorbing material on the walls, so with 5 mics in play you can really hear the liveliness of the room and I suppose I could have tried to put a gate on each track or manually edited it so that mics are only open when it's "owner" is making noise, but we are the self-proclaimed "Laziest Podcast on the Planet" and I would never do anything that could possibly jeopardize that. What a sad day it'll be when we have to say that we are "The Second Laziest Podcast on the Planet"! I will make a promise to you, our loyal literate fans that we will continue to do everything in our power to be the "Laziest Podcast on the Planet". Writing these descriptions is a nice cathartic experience for me. I'll just keep admitting all of my short comings here and then I don't have to feel bad about them. Luckily the next session we have planned is just one other person, so we'll have a better sounding podcast for the next couple ones. We are actually extremely excited for the next guest. We have been talking about hanging out for about a year and a half now, so this is history in the making. Also, he is a phenomenal "Shenanigist". I've worked with him for about 5 days in the past week and he keeps giving me little teasers and I'm dying on all of them, but we have a very similar comedic style, so we'll see if it translates. I'm excited. I should probably stop saying "I" and make it a "We" so it seems like this podcast has a united front, but Chris will never read this, so I can just keep shitting on him. He rarely listens to this podcast, but he has heard his Boston episode about 20 times. That would normally sound like a hyperbole, but I can assure it is not. That episode is almost 2 hours, which means he has almost spent an entire work week listening to the same episode. Some people just really like the sound of their own voice. I don't think that is the case here, but you know. Okay, that was a low blow, but I really respect him for being able to make fun of himself. It takes a lot of guts to say, "This is me and I will not apologize", and Chris lives by that saying. In the year and a half we have lived together he has only apologized to me once, which means he is 1 for 547.5, which means he is batting .001. If that isn't an unapologetic way to live, then I don't know what is. Well I've rambled long enough so I'll end it her-Don't forget to email us your Shenanigans at: shenanigansonsheridan@gmail.com for a chance for your Shenanigan to be read on air.

Well I've been in a work coma since Thanksgiving that isn't ending anytime before Christmas. There's one new episode coming for the rest of the year which will be an interview with a very special guest (Next week and you're not going to want to miss this!) This will also be the last repost of the year but I thought I would squeeze one more in while I'm working over 60 hours for the next couple weeks. ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION In 2009 Dragon Ball Evolution was barfed into cinemas to a much maligned response. It threw away everything that everyone knew and loved about the show and instead presented the most bare bones and boring interpretation of the classic anime/manga. Well little did we know the script to the movie was actually much close to the source material so I brought in my buddy and fellow Dragon Ball fanatic Nick Almendarez, professional wrestler and founder of Freelance Wrestling in Chicago, do discuss the Dragon Ball movie that could have been. As always you can follow us on social media. Twitter: @shelvedpodcast or you can email us at shelvedfilmpodcast@gmail.com.

Well I've been watching ancient aliens so it seemed like the right time for this to happen. It was foretold in the prophecies, a day would come when the Nc2 Conspiracy Podcast would address the pyramids. We try to keep this episode centered around the Egyptian pyramids and how new discoveries are forcing scientists to rethink everything we currently accept about these seemingly impossibly large structures. Join us for beer and pizza as we discuss a topic that's been on our mind for quite a while! 

The boys are back in town!!! Well I've never seen a wilder final 4 seconds to a game. Myles Garret done messed up. Baker Mayfield steps up as a leader. Colins Saturday workout, is it just a PR stunt by the NFL? Cam being opened to a trade to the windy city? Week 11 preview. NBA discussion. LeBrons reign continues, Doc Rivers overrated? Tune in, enjoy and don't forget to subscribe!

Who loves a really good ghost story? Well I've got plenty to tell and these are all my own real experiences. Astral projection, lost souls earthbound, haunted house and passed loved ones who have come into my dream and manipulated it in order to relay a message. As a little girl, I was afraid. As an adult, I grew strong and not afraid anymore. You can block it, you can open yourself and you can strengthen it but is it possible to loose your gift? Please rate and review on Apple Podcast, Podbean or Castbox or wherever you are listening on. To leave a comment or DM you can Connect with me on Instagram @Chaptersofmotherhood and on Twitter @motherpodcaster Be a fan on Facebook and like https://www.facebook.com/ChaptersofMotherhood/ You can leave a voice message on Anchor FM *(may be featured on a future podcast) Looking for an alternative way to ease pain? CBD oil is a simple solution. To learn more visit https://familyfriendlycbd.myctfo.com/ Learn more about Heilo Skin Care and their Nobel Prize winning ingredient, EGF, that will leave your skin glowing and cause cell turnover, resulting in plumper, softer and firmer skin with luster. Use promotional code podcast25 at check out for 25% off the entire purchase! www.heiloskincare.com/discount/podcast25 To be a supporter of the podcast for as little as $0.99 per month visit https://anchor.fm/chaptersofmotherhood/support --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/chaptersofmotherhood/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/chaptersofmotherhood/support

Dumb bored SJW women with literally nothing better to do have decided to make their hobby getting people fired from their jobs for jokes. Well I've had enough of cancel culture, and I'm doing something about it. A girl named Natasha made an offensive joke on Facebook, and a gaggle of clucking blue haircuts tried to get her fired from her job at Walmart New York City. There's just one problem. There is no Walmart in NYC. And I own the facebook page for Walmart NYC. Listen in as I take a "customer complaint" call from one of these SJW morons, and make her literally cry. The job lynch mobs are coming for you, and I am here to stop them. VIDEO: https://youtu.be/gtgx4y4jvPg RSS FEED: http://feeds.feedburner.com/podawful THIS SHOW IS NOT MONETIZED AND NOT SPONSORED. SUPPORT THE SHOW. Get PREMIUM EPISODES! Only on THE PIZZA FUND: http://podawful.pizza Join the FACEBOOK CULT: http://podawful.com/cult Get a T-SHIRT or DOWNLOAD a prank call show at http://podawful.shop http://podawful.com

Alicia Sires is Accredited Sports Dietitian (APD) and Nutritionist (AN) and rising star in the dietetics profession. A country girl at heart, Alicia moved to Brisbane in 2014 to study nutrition and pursue her dream of becoming a dietitian. After graduating with a Masters of Dietetics from The University of Queensland, Alicia jumped straight into the workforce landing a full-time role with a well known local private practice. What followed was something that can only be described as an emotional roller coaster of a year as she navigated her way through business and life as a new graduate. Despite the roadblocks that she has faced along the way (and trust me, there have been some big ones) Alicia’s passion for nutrition and helping people improve their health and wellbeing never subsided.This chat takes a completely different approach to those to date, providing insight into what life as a new graduate dietitian is really like. Alicia and I chat about her time at university, and discuss her experiences working in a private practice setting. We also explore the self-doubt and challenges that she has faced over the past twelve months and how the lessons she has learnt have paved the way to start her own business, Stronger with Nutrition.As for me? Well I've rebranded! The Naked Truth is no more. Instead, I'm now working under my own name. Check out the links below for everything you want to know!My website www.rachelhawkins.com.auFollow me on Instagram @rachelhawkinsdietitianSubscribe to my newsletterShow notesOther cool guestsOh, and don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on new episodes.

Here's our links to some of the studies we refer to.Ethical failings of CPSO policy and the health care consent act: case review.https://bmcmedethics.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12910-019-0357-yOutcomes and Cost of Patients With Terminal Cancer Admitted to Acute Care in the Final 2 Weeks of Life: A Retrospective Chart Reviewhttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1049909119843285?rfr_dat=cr_pub%3Dpubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&journalCode=ajhbResource Optimization Network website: https://www.resourceoptimizationnetwork.com/Follow us on twitter: @KwadcastEpisode transcripts:Kwadwo: 00:01 Welcome to solving healthcare. I'm Kwadwo Kyeremanteng. I'm an ICU and palliative care physician here in Ottawa and the founder of resource optimization network. We are on a mission to transform healthcare in Canada. I'm going to talk with physicians, nurses, administrators, patients and their families because inefficiencies, overwork and overcrowding affects us all. I believe it's time for a better healthcare system that's more cost effective, dignified, and just for everyone involved.Kwadwo: 00:37 For our very first podcast, I'd like to introduce dr Gianni D'Egidio. He is first off, a very good friend of mine who does critical care and general internal medicine at the Ottawa hospital. In this episode we'll talk about the impact of providing inappropriate care to patients and also discuss how to manage conflict in these circumstances. Gianni D'Egidio. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. Um, first of all, I'd like to thank you for coming, considering that I completely dominated you in an arm wrestle not that long ago in front of many people in Clearwater, Florida. So I'm very grateful for you to be appearing on the show today. Thank you. Well, I see this podcast is going to be full of lies today. All right, we're off with a bang. Okay. So as an intensivist, as a general internist, where do you see the problems in our healthcare system?Kwadwo: 01:36 I would have to say from my perspective, the biggest problem has to do with our lack or inability to correctly have an end of life care discussion or goals of care discussion. Now these terms are going to be interchangeable. Let's just say, uh, the term I'll use is, is proposing an adequate treatment plan to people. Okay. And the reason that is important, uh, is because what it results in is basically what you see right now in our entire healthcare system is a tremendous backlog. Everything is full. Uh, the hospitals are full, longterm care facilities are full. And I think one of the biggest problems we have is an inability to deal with these issues, namely having inappropriate, uh, discussion with substitute decision makers or patients about their overall prognosis and their overall care.Kwadwo: 02:25 So, okay. So that's the problem. And where do you see this bottlenecking? Is this within family practices? Are we doing this within a tertiary care centers? Like where do you see this mostly being a problem?Gianni: 02:38 Tickets from a continuum of starting with family practice? I think it can start there. It is rare that a family physician will have a well-informed, uh, advanced care planning session with their patients. And that then results in potentially, uh, an inappropriate admission to, and then when that admission to hospital comes, now let's take it into the acute phase where there is also probably an either ill informed or inappropriate conversation during the admission process, either through the emergency physician or the admitting physician. And then that progresses to further potential deescalate or excuse me, worsening of the patient in hospital and then results in a intensive care unit admission. Okay. Without giving a co like a exact patients scenario, walk us through exactly like what this could look like. So for instance, let's use one of our studies as an example. Okay. We looked at people presenting to the emergency department who subsequently died in the last, they were basically in the last two weeks of their life.Gianni: 03:45 Uh, these were people with advanced cancers, metastatic cancer who present to the emergency department and subsequently died within two weeks. 71% of those individuals who clearly had end stage disease, 71% of those individuals did not have any discussion regarding end of life or advanced care planning. So there's a typical example of our system of a failure of our system. And this is not to put blame on oncologists or a family physicians or intensivists. This is to say that the vast majority of people or the vast majority of physicians are either uncomfortable with having that discussion or are improperly educated about how to have that discussion. Interesting. So obviously we do the same line of work. We see this problem all the time. And what do you think, you kind of answered the question, but what do you think is the problem? Like if we know it's an issue with addressing goals of care, why isn't it happening?Gianni: 04:45 I would boil it down to two major issues. One is education amongst not only patients and substitute decision makers, but amongst physicians. And the second problem is fear. Um, or uncomfort or whatever you wanna label it as I would label it as fear and on the aspect or on the side of physicians especially that they are fearful of having these conversations, especially when the conversation is going to be fraught with emotion or conflict. So let's get back to 2.1 if I may about education when I, this is just anecdote, when I pull the medical students and residents that are in a lecture and I give many talks on end of life care, advanced care planning or proposing a treatment plan, I pull them on. I ask how many of you have had any education whatsoever in medical school about how to deal with conflict or how to have an appropriate end of life care discussion or advanced care planning discussion.Gianni: 05:43 The vast majority raise their hand and say, we have not had that type of education. If we had had that education, it's only been for an hour or one lecture and that is it. So here are these medical students now residency. And then I asked the residents the same question and again the vast majority lack that education or that formal teaching on it. They say they pick it up from their attendings. Well I've got news for everybody. If your attending is not very good at having that conversation and they are going to be your role model or your source of education for that a topic, I've got news for you, your end of life care discussion or advanced care planning discussions are also going to be quite poor. So education is tremendously lacking and then that results I think in point number two which is fear.Gianni: 06:31 We as physicians I think are, I as mentioned uneducated when it comes to having discussions that results in fear of having the discussions or avoidance of having these discussions. Let's look at the small percentage of conversations or families or substitute decision makers that are quote unquote difficult and we know they're going to be difficult. Physicians are fearful of having those conversations completely fearful and that we'll use the term almost cowardly. Um, when it comes to having those conversations, especially when they substitute decision maker or family member is threatening with a lawsuit or threatening to go to the media or whatever it may be that they're using. Um, physicians will avoid that conversation and if they're not avoiding the conversation, the conversation will basically allow the substitute decision maker to guide the treatment at that point. Like I couldn't agree more. And one of the things that people don't appreciate is the downstream consequences of these lack of conversations.Kwadwo: 07:32 So yes, the patient gets admitted to an inpatient or into the intensive care unit, they get all this treatment, which people don't realize how, how much of a strain it is for the family member, for the patient, for the care team, for, you know, having that moral distress of giving, like providing care to someone that's not going to benefit. So you've been involved in several cases where there's been conflict with the treating team and the family or substitute decision makers. I'm wondering if you could talk about that process a little bit and, and maybe even describe what the experience has been like for the patient. The family, the care team and yourself. So the, for those that are listening that don't know what the consent capacity board is, the consent and capacity board or the CCB is an independent quasi judicial tribunal. I'm appointed by the province to basically adjudicate what is in the best interests of a patient, especially when there is a conflict or dispute between what the treatment team feels is in the patient's best interest compared to what the substitute decision makers feel is in the best interests of their loved one.Gianni: 08:55 Um, Ivan and involved, uh, in six consent and capacity board cases and also been involved indirectly in multiple other cases. And I'll talk about, uh, our study a little bit later on. So regarding the CCB, um, the CCB as mentioned as closer judicial, it's basically a, uh, court like, um, a system or court like, um, process where me as the, uh, treating physician will file an application with a consent capacity board to basically, um, challenge whether or not the substitute decision maker is abiding by the principles of substitute decision making, which is section 21 of the health care consent act. And what that section 21 looks at is as mentioned, the principles of substitute decision making and a substitute decision maker. If I can make one clear point on this podcast today and what I do during my lectures as well, a substitute decision maker is only there to consent to the treatment plan that physicians propose and they have to do so based on number one previously expressed wishes of their loved one and if there's no previously expressed wishes, then they have to act on best interests.Gianni: 10:01 A which considers values and beliefs substitute decision makers are not there to demand therapy, they cannot demand therapy and they are only there to consent. Like I said to the treatment plan that we propose and this goes back to our education and our inability to appropriately propose a treatment plan. So in terms of their demand of therapy, we as physicians are not obliged to offer, propose or initiate any therapy that has not been started or that will not benefit the patient in our opinion. Okay. That's what we forget all the time on our side. Substitute decision makers like me, like I mentioned have to act on previously expressed wishes and if not best interest and the consent capacity board will basically adjudicate, um, solely based on law and solely based on the section 21 of the health care consent act. So I filed a six applications.Gianni: 10:59 I've been involved in five consent and capacity board hearings. Um, they are the consent capacity board. I guess the pearls of the consent and capacity board are that it is heard more end of life cases than any other court's combined in Canada. It is supposed to be rapid in the sense that once I file an application you're supposed to hear, there's supposed to be a pre hearing within one week of filing of that application and it's supposed to be much faster than the court system. Ideally you're having a pre hearing within a week and then ideally you're having the hearings within a month or two. Unfortunately that has been changing over time and I'll get into that maybe a little bit later on. So getting back to the pro, it's supposed to be fast. And more importantly when the hearing is done, you get your reasons for decision within 24 hours, which is unheard of compared to any other court Lake system.Gianni: 11:49 Um, the cons of the consent capacity are that the decision is solely based on law. It does not factor in the ethics, the opportunity costs, the medical standard of care or whatever else physicians would deem important. When it comes to proposing a treatment plan or it comes to the care of a patient, it's solely based on, like I said again this subsection 21 of the health care consent act. Um, my experience with the CCB has been mixed. I would say, um, lately the from filing of application to decision has been three to four months, which albeit is still faster than the court system. However, it is still, uh, quite arduous in terms of the amount of preparation that requires and the amount of time in spent in hearings. So the latest case that I've done, basically it was a seven day process, uh, not to mention the multiple pre hearings beforehand.Gianni: 12:47 So it can be quite labor intensive. And the reason I mention all this is because the vast majority of physicians will not proceed with a consent capacity board case. Um, I have done six, I know of in Ottawa at least, there's only been basically two other physicians who have filed a form G application, which deals with end of life care issues at the consent capacity board level. Um, so the vast majority of physicians will avoid it. And another factor is even if the reasons of decision, um, I hate to use a term but are favorable for the physician, let's say they find that the consent capacity or the, excuse me, that the substitute decision makers have not acted in the best interest of their loved ones that can be appealed. And then the appeal process will take another five to six months. And, uh, only adding to the workload and time for said physician involved.Gianni: 13:37 In that case, not only is there the workload or the never ending aspect of the consent capacity board cases, but it can also potentially result in litigation. So you can understand why the vast majority of physicians will not want to pursue this Avenue. Then getting into your point about the effect it has on families, a more substitute decision makers. While you can say goodbye to the therapeutic relationship that's essentially over, once you file that form G application or start mentioning courts and lawyers and whatever else. So the therapeutic relationship completely breaks down there is going to be most likely an associated costs for the substitute decision maker because they will have to retain legal counsel. If they can afford legal counsel then great. Yes they will. They will have to basically a fork out their own money for that process. If they can't afford it then they can get legal representation through legal aid.Gianni: 14:29 Um, so you have not only the financial burden for substitute decision makers, you have the therapeutic relationship breaking down and there is no doubt is a stressful for substitute decision makers as well. Right. Going through court is not a fun process for anyone involved. So you got into the technical aspect which fine, but like why are you doing it? Like are you seeing that is driving you to want to go through this process? Like give us a sense of what a patient is going through at the time where you, you, you decide I'm going to go through this process again, this comes at um, you have to remember that consent capacity board cases are open to the public and the reasons for decision are available to everyone. So what I am disclosing, I'm not disclosing any personal health information or anything like that and I have written about this.Gianni: 15:22 I have also used these experiences in the consent capacity board but that there is no doubt in my mind and no doubt, um, in the eyes of any of the healthcare team involved that the patient is absolutely suffering. And I will use extreme examples from cases, um, where basically there are profound ulcerations of the skin because of immobility and despite how good our nurses and our healthcare team is with moving patients, repositioning them, whatever else. Those are absolutely unavoidable. In these situations, you are dealing with an individual who is completely basically comatose who is now in one case was on months and months of vasopressin. I've got news for people. If you put someone on months of vasal pressers, you are basically, their skin has zero flow, it will have very, very poor blood flow. You combine that with pressure and the next step is profound ulceration to the point of sloughing of skin in multiple areas.Gianni: 16:25 And in one instance basically a complete degloving of a scalp from simple, um, bedside combing of the hair, um, that has happened, that has been documented. Um, and the same process will happen with any indwelling tube, uh, and breakdown. So for instance, rectal tubes, rectal tubes will result in the complete destruction of the rectum if it is unbelievable to see what will happen to these individuals. Um, so first and foremost it comes down to the suffering of a patient. And second, it comes down to just the injustice and uh, ethical dilemma that it presents to physicians. And that results in me basically bottom line, full disclosure being absolutely angry about the entire process. I could feel the anger in the room right now. But yeah, I gotta say I've seen you in and around a couple of cases and this is not easy getting back to like the reasons to do this. So I couldn't agree more that the cases that we see in the ICU have these prolonged uh, treatments where the patients aren't benefiting and it's been driven by the families, the amount of sufferings, insane. And one thing that goes under appreciated is the work our nurses are a allied health team members go through to to provide care. Like I'll never, when I was a fellow,Kwadwo: 17:50 we were rounding on one of these patients that weren't going anywhere and the nurse was crying in the corner, like trying to hide that she was getting emotional. I'm like what's the matter? Like what's going on? And she's like, every time I walk into that room I feel like I'm torturing that patient. I'm like 12 hours of torturing this poor guy. And it was actually a huge epiphany for me because like when we get involved, we're involved for like five to 15 minutes, right? To do our assessments or whatnot and they're at the bedside for 12 hours doing this. You know, it comes down to for me, you know, in terms of the justice point of view, like people don't realize also about the financial burden that is being put into this. Like into cases that people aren't benefiting in. You know, 1% of your gross domestic product goes into treating people in the ICU.Kwadwo: 18:51 A reasonable percentage of these, those people aren't benefiting. And we need to think about some of the opportunity costs. A colleague of ours, Michael Harwich, he was talking to us about his kid who has a, I think there's a breakfast program at his school where they, for underprivileged kids, they provide food for, uh, to ensure that they get nourished and they had to cut the program cause they were short money. And I'm like, this is insane. We are flogging some people that would never want cake, would never want treatment and we can't feed kids like, you know, get all that is.Gianni: 19:30 So let's, let's, that's a perfect segue into the next study that, uh, I or we are doing and will be presented at the Canadian critical care forum. Uh, in November there were 12 patients. Uh, let's, this is a case series of 12 patients that I've been directly involved in. And just off the top of my head, picked 12 patients that have been these, let's say drastic cases or extreme cases, but these 12 patients had a median age of 83 years old. They were meeting median age of all 83.5. So let's round up to 84. Let's just do that. Fair enough. They had an average length of stay in hospital of 263 days. Okay. That is absolutely I think incredible. And their average ICU length of state was 109 days. All 12 of these patients died. All 12 of these patients had extreme cognitive impairment, either the vast majority through dementia.Gianni: 20:25 And three, if I remember off the top of my head, three out of the 12 cases due to a severe interest cerebral, um, incident. Um, so as mentioned, all of these folks, unfortunately, well I should say all of these patients, I shouldn't use the term folks. All of these patients pass away the average cost of these 12 patients to our system, not including physician costs or any other, these are just indirect and direct costs. Nearly $8 million for these 12 patients. One patient spent 704 days in hospital. Now you cannot tell me that this is a wise use of our resources when we talk about opportunity costs. Now let's talk about the things this study didn't capture. Multiple nurses have quit and I know that directly, uh, multiple nurses have sought sick leave because of this. Um, we have had, um, there, there has been a tremendous um, decrease in the sort of wellbeing of our health care team.Gianni: 21:26 When these cases happen or even after the fact, you could feel it. Yes, yeah. Yes. And it has scarred certain individuals, scarred individuals to the point where they have quit. They have left their position. And these are not junior nurses. These are nurses in mid career who have decided I have seen enough. This is this case in particular has pushed me over the edge. I will not, I will no longer be an intensive care unit nurse. And you know what's insane? It's like their whole mantra of their whole job is to like, I want to make people better. I want to help heal people. I want to help them get their function back and they get shat on to get verbally abused. They get inundated with all this. They have the moral distress and they often feel powerless. Yes. You know what I mean? And it's like we need to do some shit about this.Gianni: 22:20 So this is, this brings us into another part of the bigger problem, which is as physicians in a healthcare team, besides the roots of the consent capacity board, the odds are stacked against the healthcare team right now. And if I may use the analogy of, of the pendulum, the pendulum has swung far too much towards the principle of autonomy. And I will refer people to the study that we recently published as well about the ethical failings of the end of life care or CPSO end of life care policy. And the health care consent act, which are completely favoring autonomy and they completely disregard other ethical principles such as distributive judge justice, non-maleficence and beneficent, excuse me. Um, and the reason that is our policies and law are completely stacked against um, those ethical principles and completely favor autonomy. For instance, the CPSO end of life care policy, which basically just to summarize, basically says you need consent not to perform CPR.Gianni: 23:22 This is the only treatment that I am aware of that has ever been or deemed by the college or any, uh, professional body to be uh, universally indicated in everyone. And as I point out, again, when I lecture my med students and residents, there is no treatment that is universally indicated in any one. I use the simple things like water and oxygen. Oxygen is not universally indicated and everyone, in fact, oxygen can be harmful when not indicated. Water is not universally indicated in everyone. For instance, in the hyponatremic patient, there is no way that CPR is universally indicated in every single individual. They are going to be clear cases where CPR will never benefit in an individual and should not be offered. I mean you and I both know how insane that that statement was. Like just to be clear for the listener, like you could have a patient with end stage cancer.Kwadwo: 24:13 You have a patient that is having end stage renal function. I, he needs dialysis and the treatment, the treating team says like this patient is not a, uh, is not a candidate for further chemo. They're not a candidate for further dialysis. They're not tolerating it. This ruling would still say that if they die you would need consent not to do CPR. Correct. Which is insane. Now, one of the things we as physicians, and this gets back to again, the uh, topic that I've been focusing in on is our proposal of treatment plans is very poor. And as I mentioned earlier, we do not need to offer any treatment or propose any treatment or begin any treatment that has not already been initiated or that's not going to be beneficial to an individual. However, that requires that the entire treatment team be on the same page.Gianni: 25:06 And you have to remember our healthcare system or the way we operate in intensive care unit, I don't want to call it fragmented, but we have a most responsible physician or attending physician every week. Right. And to get consensus for let's say 20 individuals, 20 physicians who are going to be looking after this patient, there's going to be a different level of comfort amongst those attending physicians about what they're gonna offer and not offer for fear of reprimand because of a lawsuit, a college complaint or whatever else it may be. Even though said physician completely agrees that this treatment should not be offered, but they are fearful of the consequences of saying I am not going to offer dialysis. I am not going to offer peg tube feeding. But they are fearful of the consequences of that. I mean is because of the process. Like just to be the devil, the process.Kwadwo: 25:52 Once you get a complaint, you get named in a lawsuit. That's years of your life. Yes. You know what I'm saying? And, um, so there is a lot of unfortunate the deterrent to be able to stand up and do what's right. But I think at the end of the day, all of us gotta look ourselves in the mirror, yo. And full disclosure, I have had a college of physicians and surgeons complaint, um, which took 15 months to basically resolve. I have had complaints to the chief of staff of the hospital to the CEO of the hospital, to my member of parliament as well. So these are, and I'm willing to deal with those. Uh, but again, I don't, I can't blame my colleagues for saying I don't want any of that. Especially if there is something else going on in their life that has providing them stress in their personal life or their academic career, whatever it may be. Right. They're going to completely avoid that. And part of me can't blame them.

Well I've finally made the episode that's going to lose me all my viewers, or create world peace as everyone holds hands to watch me truly spiral into insanity and depression as I yell for an hour about Epstein. This episode will be used against me in court someday in a custody battle for my future children. Enjoy!www.ITKH.ca for all audio and video formats - and to support me in multiple ways!

This week its Eurovision, Austria and Facebook's garbage ad policy... woop woop! Support us on Patreon! WE HAVE A T-PUBLIC STORE what a fashionable way to support our podcast We now have a website that you can find here! Feel free to send us an email at PreviouslyInEurope@gmail.com or follow us on Twitter @PrevInEurope If you can please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and if you can't do that tell a friend, this stuff really helps us out Also, have you considered Matteo Renzi? Nonsense Section Eurovision Did you hear there was a Eurovision? Duncan won for the Dutch with a medium quality Coldplay inspired thing (https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/may/19/eurovision-song-contest-2019-won-by-the-netherlands-duncan-laurence) Low quality Madonna costs 1m https://www.dw.com/en/madonna-steals-the-show-at-eurovision-for-the-wrong-reasons/a-48791453 Iceland has Palestine banners confiscated https://wiwibloggs.com/2019/05/19/iceland-ebu-issues-statement-following-hataris-banner-incident/239252/ Climate activists occupy German-Russian gas pipeline Five German climate activists climbed inside segments of the new Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline from Russia to Germany on Thursday, skateboarding inside, holding protest placards, and refusing to leave despite police appeals. One of them, calling himself Fynn, told the BBC he was fighting a "global struggle against fossil fuels", adding: "We are skating in the pipeline and it is fun!". https://euobserver.com/tickers/144923 Topic 1 In shock turn of events FPÖ are corrupt assholes... Who knew the ultra-far-right party would be also shady as fuck? Süddeutsche Zeitung releases secret recordings of the vice-chancellor Heinz-Christian Strache offering government contracts in return for election help from someone posing as a Russian oligarch's niece... This would involve the supposed oligarch buying a large stake in Austrian media and giving favorable coverage in exchange for political favors and what not... Using Orban's grip on the media as an example. If only they lived in the UK, USA or Australia where conservative politicians already have a friend with large amounts of media control... ------------- https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-austrias-far-right-show-their-true-colors/a-48791473 Kurz is calling for elections Which makes sense. It muddies him to keep the FPÖ around in government and his party is probably the one to gain from any hit they take with the electorate. It kind of proves the "far right in the pocket of special interests and foreign donors" thing. Kurz also says the bits of the tapes where Strache claims to have dirt on Kurz and his orgies didn't influence his decision... No new polling yet, but the ÖVP are comfortably in the lead still with the FPÖ in the mid 20s... ÖVP majority or minority government is not an impossible outcome https://www.dw.com/cda/en/austrias-sebastian-kurz-calls-for-snap-elections-after-corruption-scandal/a-48789106 Topic 2 Facebook's EU Political Ad Policy Timeline: ### March FB announces you need to prove residence in the country you're advertising in to post political ads in the weeks running up to the election (https://www.politico.eu/article/facebook-rolls-out-political-ad-rules-ahead-of-eu-vote-election-transparency-campaign/) ### April EU is all like, hey wait a minute the EU commission advertises continent wide about the election and there are cross-country political grouping and campaigns that won't be able to advertise (https://www.politico.eu/article/facebook-european-elections-advertising-political-social-media-europe) Nick Clegg (former deputy PM of UK and all round nice guy who now works for facebook) tells Tajani to chill out because they'll make exceptions because there have been so many complaints. "It was only to stop outside influence, we're chill". The chairs of all the major European parties send Zukkey an open letter (https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Open-letter-to-Mark-Zuckerberg.pdf, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/17/eu-tells-facebooks-nick-clegg-to-rethink-ad-funding-rules) They make a good case against the rules: > Article 10(4) of the TEU (Treaty of the European Union) clearly states that “Political parties at European level contribute to forming European political awareness and to expressing the will of citizens of the Union.” –not national awareness on the national level of national citizens. There are also weird business exceptions like "news publishers" are exempt? “They’ve made exceptions for media so why shouldn’t they make exceptions for political parties?” Sybren Kooistra, the campaign manager for the European Greens party. So everythings fine now right? Nick wouldn't do us like that... ### May Martin Selmayr (of inappropriate promotion fame) doesn't think so. He says the exceptions haven't really materialised (https://www.politico.eu/article/facebooks-political-ad-eu-election/). “There is no evidence that Facebook has corrected its rules, the status quo is in place,” said European People’s Party campaign manager Dara Murphy, adding that “any changes that would happen now would make almost no difference.” What about the other platforms? Well I've seen plenty of EU Commission "please vote, here's how to vote" ads on twitter in the form of promoted tweets. According to Selmayr this still isn't possible on Facebook... which is pretty ridiculous seeing as the election is this week. Google has very clear guidelines on how to become verified and what to do/not to do (https://support.google.com/adspolicy/answer/9211218). Basically you need to be pre-verified as registered in the EU before they'll approve you for election advertising. They worked this out back in November (https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-eu-election-google/google-reveals-new-policy-for-election-ads-ahead-of-eu-vote-bloomberg-idUKKCN1NR03C). If there are any problems they're not coming up in the media because of how much worse Facebook's rules are... Twitter have a pretty similar policy of pre-verification of being based in the EU (https://www.politico.eu/blogs/eu-decides-2019-european-elections-blog/2019/02/twitter-expands-political-ads-rules-in-the-eu-ahead-of-parliament-election/). That was worked out in February I guess at least they're trying? There's been a lot of coverage of their "election war room" in Dublin where people take down banned content and disinformation: The idea is to have 40 people with at least one fluent in every EU national language to deal with take downs and disinformation campaigns relating to the election. It's a good idea but might not be enough (https://www.wired.co.uk/article/facebook-eu-election-war-room). I guess their "only in your country" rule makes this job a little easier. In Italy they closed down a bunch of pages with millions of followers that was spreading bullshit https://www.eurotopics.net/en/219789/facebook-closes-23-accounts-in-italy# (pages reported by Avaaz https://secure.avaaz.org/page/en/ so I'm assuming mostly climate denial etc) Great but the problem with a user generated content platform is they're always going to be missing things... Ai isn't a magic solution (https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/5/18530337/facebook-european-parlimentary-election-war-room-misinformation) Maybe we need to accept it won't be perfect

Have you ever wondered how you ended up in a situation with a client - an awkward situation that is? Ever had to fire a client? Wish you had a better way of managing all the bits and pieces and setting the right expectations? Well I've got you covered!

Neuroscience experts, practitioners, research and methods for making brain-friendly organizations and healthy individuals. Subscribe to Mind Your Noodles!   This is the fifth episode of the Mind Your Noodles podcast. In this episode Charles Green, author of The Trusted Advisor discusses neuroscience utility and ways to build trust in your organization.    Show Notes [00:00:06] Mind Your Noodles Podcast - Episode 5 [00:01:58] Dale Carnegie. . . Deeper [00:05:07] The Philosophy of Trust [00:06:13] Neuroscience - Does It Applies to Organizations? [00:08:29] The Argument Against [00:11:49] A Descriptive Analogy [00:40:48] Forget Neuroscience -  What Should We Do? [00:44:49] Women are Trusted More Than Men [00:46:15] Nurses Most Trusted [00:52:00] The Power of Story   Transcript Tripp: [00:00:06] Take care of The brains that take care of you. with the Mind Your Noodles podcast will keep you up to date on the latest neuroscience research and practices to keep your brain healthy. And strategies to help your organization be brain friendly.   Tripp: [00:00:27] Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt with Mind Your Noodles and our guest today is Charles H. GREEN He is an author who has written many books one which is one of my personal favorites which is the trusted advisor which I believe was written in around 2000 or so. So maybe we should just kind of start there Charles a little bit about you and you've written that looks like three books. You had a field book and then you also had a more recently the trust based selling book. But like I said the Trust Advisors is I'm sure one that's held by a lot of people whether they're in sales or consulting or really any field where you're you're having to deal with people on a daily basis. I'll let you take it from here. Yeah   Charles: [00:01:16] Well that's that's basically right. The whole three books share the common theme of trust in business. A trusted advisor you right came out 2001 that was the first trust they signed in 0 5 and The Trusted Advisor field book. I think about 2013 and the trusted advisor is kind of the one that you know I made my mark with. That's that's the core branding. Not that I check it frequently but as of this morning it was rated about number 7000 on Amazon which was compared to all millions of books it's up against Harry Potter and it's continued to have that level of popularity. So I'm I'm quite happy to have a book that's performed that well that's excellent.   Tripp: [00:01:58] It's it's well written and you know it's interesting I was looking actually on Amazon about you know different reviews people had on it and I thought some of some of the folks out there kind of gave it a good explanation at least for me. Hopefully you like it as a compliment to which is it's it's kind of a deeper Carnegie's Win Friends and Influence People.   Tripp: [00:02:22] There's a lot more to it.   Tripp: [00:02:23] There's a lot more that you can apply into settings maybe that's not a good explanation but I don't know that I thought when I read that I thought Well that's thoughtful and a few other people kind of jumped on that comment.   Charles: [00:02:38] Yeah I think it's fair and I take it as a as a compliment. I think another thing that people find when I am my people in my organization give workshops or keynote is a common takeaway from people is sort of. It's not like I didn't really know that. I guess I kind of knew that but I never put it all together in a coherent thread like that. So I don't claim novelty but I do think it's knitted together a whole bunch of very common themes so I think it's a good company. Thank you.   Tripp: [00:03:09] Yeah. And I have to say also you practice what you preach to as we exchanged e-mails over a few series of days not only did you spend time with thoughtful responses to some of the e-mails that we shared but also the way that you used a a compliment being very specific which is one of the things out of the book I thought was was you know it's just interesting how some people will that they write something but then they don't really live it. But I could tell that you really live the the books that you wrote.   Charles: [00:03:44] Well I've had 19 years to practice it and you know there is no upper limit to to perfection in an area like trusting or being trustworthy. So it's a constant struggle. But yeah over time you can get better at it.   Tripp: [00:03:59] Absolutely. One of the things I want to kind of interject in this conversation as you know we when we were exchanging e-mails you were talking about W. Edwards Deming and you know he's had different influence on people you know Pixar Bama companies Paula Marshall that make the apple pies for McDonald's and and different folks. And I was you were familiar with Deming which not everybody has but I have a tendency to be people at least my age and up I have a tendency to know who at least who Deming was. What your knowledge of that. Dr. Deming and his work.   Charles: [00:04:37] Gosh it's it's not deep and it's it's old I haven't looked into this material in years but what I'm left with is a tremendous amount of respect. He was obviously somebody who had a great idea somebody who was devoted to it somebody who was very good at explaining and had a great deal of impact. So you know I do not claim any in-depth concrete knowledge about it but you know the core message is brilliant and very well said from what I recall.   Tripp: [00:05:07] Yeah his his his last book The New Economics basically addressed looking at an organization as a system theory vague theory of variation theory knowledge and psychology. We're kind of the cornerstones of of his particular work and you know I remember when I. First read the trusted advisor was kind of a combination of things that it kind of brought back come some epistemology type things in my head. And it also brought in some of the psychology piece even though you don't really overtly mention that it seems to be some of that underpinning the writings of that book. Is that a fair assessment.   Charles: [00:05:50] Absolutely. It's very much there. And I think what we what we intended. I was one of three authors on that book and what we intended was to let those kinds of conclusions reveal themselves to the reader so rather than preaching you know here's how you should relate to your kids or your spouse. We said let's let let's let that one emerge to the reader. And it is pretty obvious. It's definitely there.   Tripp: [00:06:13] Ok. So I'm just going to kind of jump into one of the reasons that I came across you and your work again was there was a post that you made or a comment that you made it was very strong. And it's because we're covering off in this particular podcast about neuroscience and it's an application to organizations. One of the things that that you kind of addressed very directly was you didn't you don't necessarily see it that way and some of the people that I've already talked to like Dr. Zak different folks you know are bringing this into organizations and it gave me pause when I read your comment and I thought you know if this is going to be a podcast this podcasts really needs to be about perspective and you offer a different perspective on the usefulness of neuroscience philosophically as you mentioned in your in our emails and our communications back and forth but what kind of give me would set the foundation here for what it is that you see and why you. You have have some such strong feelings about it maybe and this is a few years ago. So to be to be fair this is maybe you've changed your mind or maybe you've dug in deeper I don't know. So I just you whenever somebody gives me a strong reaction and not just the reaction of Oh that that's baloney or something like that but more a thoughtful response I say you know like I said it gives me pause and I want to understand what it is that you see and to be fair to the audience as we start to look at you know neuroscience. Does it have application to organizations right.   Charles: [00:07:59] Well I mean good for you for seeking out you know different perspectives to answer a little question there and probably Doug and a little bit deeper. I think my background I got a graduate degree MBA Harvard Business School many years ago my undergraduate degree was in philosophy. As a matter of fact in my class at HP as eight hundred people only two of us had a philosophy degree and I was one of them. And so that's kind of a schizophrenic background.   Charles: [00:08:29] You know those two. And and in my career I think the value of a degree in philosophy early on in my career was somewhere between none and zero. It's just not what it was that even a mistake. In fact the more more my career progressed the more I began to see the applicability of it. And this subject is really a good example. Feel free to interrupt me here as we go through the tour Tripp. I guess basically I approach the issues of neuroscience as applied to leadership and business from the perspective of philosophy of science and that deals with things like what is an explanation. What is causality et cetera et cetera. Let me just say upfront I'm not an expert in neuroscience as we've already seen I'm not an expert in Deming but I do know a few things about business and I do know a few things about how to talk about the intersection of business psychology management leadership and all those things. And what has struck me about the subject of neuroscience applied to business it's not unique to that field.   Charles: [00:09:41] It happens when you get people who are deep into the let me call it hard science and I know that at the microscopic level physics is always sort of the paradigm of air quote you know good science there is a temptation among people who are really skilled deep in the hard sciences to want to apply the same kind of principles techniques perspectives into the quote softer areas I'm going to be using a lot of air quotes here.   Tripp: [00:10:09] Oh that's OK.   Charles: [00:10:11] And I think it leads to a couple of problems and I'll call them philosophic but they're they're very real. One of them is the notion of explanation. So for example and again I'm not deeply familiar with either Zen. Or Iraq. But I'll I'll sort of key off.   Charles: [00:10:30] Zak wrote an article in Harvard Business Review about a couple of years ago and you can see very much he says I'm going to describe how neuroscience causes certain factors in management behavior. Right there. Anybody who had training in philosophy when you see the word cause you should know red flag. I go back to David Hume and anybody with philosophy signs you can't prove causation in the sense of the word that we normally mean by proving that I would fault the editor HBR are they shouldn't it like that. You could have said what he intended. In a much cleaner way. So there's that little issue you can't really prove causation. Much more importantly though in casual language hard scientists tend to say things like well we can explain management behavior by delving into the neuroscience of it and I'll speak very broadly. You know the neuroscientists people in this case are measuring levels of oxytocin or they're doing brainwave scans and what they're saying is this explains people's behavior or management behavior or leadership behavior. So my problem lies right there. I would argue it doesn't really explain hardly anything in any useful way. And let me give a humble example.   Charles: [00:11:49] If I were in the room with you Tripp I would put my right hand out in front of me six inches above the table top with my fingers lightly flexed and raised my hand by one foot. So it's a foot and a half off the table. Now let me suggest there is an infinite number of ways to describe what I just did. You could say I raised my hand you could say I was acting out the toast that I gave as best man at a recent wedding. You could say I was flexing the muscles. You could say that my brain was sending certain signals via complicated biochemistry that then triggered certain muscles and so forth and sort you could say I was giving a signal. There's an infinite number of ways to describe what I just did. And it's not that one of them is more accurate or more right or more truthful it depends on the situation. If I actually were at a wedding and what I did was you know raised my hand with a glass in it in a toast. That's what you'd want to say. You know Charlie toasted the group.   Charles: [00:12:53] It's useless to describe what I just did in biochemical terms and yet I think people well schooled in the hard sciences tend to believe well the more deep we can get into the physical explanations of the better the explanation. There is a name for that is called the reductionist problem in philosophy and it's the belief that always the deeper you can get the better the explanation is.   Charles: [00:13:17] Well that makes a lot of sense in chemistry. I makes a lot of sense in physics. You know it's when I when I grew up you know the ultimate source of reality where atoms which could be broken into neutrons protons and electrons didn't know anything more you know. Science has advanced since then. Science advanced past Newton and we would now say the ultimate reality is not explained by Newtonian physics you got to get into quantum mechanics and so forth and so the fact in the daily world that's useless. And you know if I swing a bat and hit a ball Newton is just fine to describe that. If I walk into the pathway of a street I'm likely hit by a car and Newtonian physics is perfectly adequate to describe that. So it's only in certain settings where we're very careful if we want to talk about the nature of ultimate reality in the universe it's very appropriate to bring in all these other perspectives and to bring it back home here. If you're going to talk about things in management leadership and business things like recognizing excellence giving people discretion sharing information building relationships these are all sub topics that Zak wrote about in his HP article I would argue that the choice of the neuro chemical language to describe that is pretty much useless. We don't need neuroscience to talk about the notion of leadership or motivation. In fact it's it's it's beside the point it's distracting.   Charles: [00:14:48] So to me defaulting to that micro level of explanation for all explanations is a fairly low level of explaining our sorry. Description is a fairly low level of explanation and description by reducing things to the lowest physical common denominator becomes really useless and useless.   Charles: [00:15:08] So that's the essence of my concern with it we're using one language to describe phenomena which are frankly practically speaking far better described in other languages. So it's akin to saying well should this concept be better expressed in German or in French. Well when you're talking about leadership it doesn't matter. There's certain area. That might be very important but most management and leadership subjects I suggest are very well dealt with with fairly much common language and not by default to some supposedly superior notion of biochemical language. So let me stop there and see if that makes sense.   Tripp: [00:15:46] Yeah. No i i i falling as best I can. I did it not I don't have a philosophy of real depth as far as that.   Tripp: [00:15:55] I've read some of the stuff that Dr. Deming read you know where as he was going along and getting associated with the pistol melody portion of it but there's a few things that you I wrote down as as you were talking in the first one was this this kid the concept of causation versus correlation you didn't mention correlation but just just to mention it you know just because more murders in the summer doesn't mean that summer causes murders you know type of thing.   Charles: [00:16:22] Yeah correct.   Tripp: [00:16:24] And so there's a difficulty which kind of leads me to the second thing I wrote down which is anytime we're doing dealing with science we're in essence and Dr. Deming used something called PDSA which is plan do study act. We know that we're kind of in a scientific setting and just because we have one instance of something happening doesn't prove anything forever. It just means in that circumstance and that's kind of when as you were talking about you know the hand above the table I'm sitting there thinking OK you know from a scientific standpoint we can't draw conclusions about things based off of even multiple experiment experiments of metaphor. One of Dr. Deming is famous saving sayings was no theory has ever proven.   Charles: [00:17:09] Right. So it's he's philosophically exactly correct.   Tripp: [00:17:13] Okay. Okay. And so you know from that standpoint I gather that you know and I and I as I hear you talk and I'm kind of putting the pieces together and there is a third thing that you mentioned in there and I kind of remind me of you know Frederick Taylor versus what Deming taught. So you've got kind of this Taylor mystic thinking during the Industrial Revolution about you know pound whatever you can out of people pay Papa those types of things and Dr. Deming came in and redid all that and now actually was that kind of same transformation from Newtonian you know thinking to quantum physics. I mean it was a whole new level of of thinking and I guess where I get kind of stuck you know as I hear you talk and you say I have some of that logic associated with it. And again probably not the depth you have  I know I don't.   Charles: [00:18:08] Believe me I've forgotten 90 OK.   Tripp: [00:18:10] I'm still working on the two percent you that you know. So the.   Tripp: [00:18:16] But logically there are certain things that I as a read them kind of makes sense and I don't know if it's a familiarity thing or what it might be. But for instance when Dr. Zak talks about the fact that you know you raise as you become an executive you know you raise up through all the levels and you get this power and the testosterone starts kicking in. And in essence you lose empathy. I find that useful from a scientific standpoint does it apply to everyone. Probably not. But. But is it something that would be useful for people to know. I think so and I've and I've heard others that are in kind of the neuroscience field kind of support kind of what Zak's saying. So you know I'm hearing that. So are you countering that type of thing or is it is it something else that that you're you're taking from an argument perspective from an art.   Charles: [00:19:15] It is something else. I don't disagree with that finding. OK. And sort of empirically obvious to me as a manage. Kids huh. But you know hey more more proof. What the heck. That's that's fine. What I'm here arguing about is an example I'm looking at Dr. Zak's article in front of me just to refresh my memory. And he in this article in Harvard Business Review he says quote I identified eight management behaviors that foster trust. These behaviors are measurable and can be managed to improve performance. Close quote. And those eight behaviors are. He calls them behaviors no one recognize excellence. Number two induce quote challenge threats unquote. Number three give people discretion in how they do their work. Number four enabled job crafting. Number five. Share information broadly. Number six intentionally build relationships. Number seven facilitate whole person growth. Number eight show vulnerability. Now those are all you know we understand in plain English we understand what those mean and what he's done what he says he's done in his research. Remind me to come back and comment on the research. OK. But what he what he suggested is that. They've been able to measure different levels of oxytocin in association with these kinds of phenomena. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I'm just saying. Who needs that to talk about. Give people discretion you know share information broadly intentionally build relationships and be vulnerable.   Charles: [00:20:44] Poets have said as much every management consultant I know would say as much people 30 40 50 years ago who were very well respected in business sent as much without any need for any benefit from oxytocin or or neuroscience.   Charles: [00:21:01] What I'm arguing about is the utility the value brought to this set of observations by the field of neuroscience it seems to me pretty minimal. It's like I knew this. This is second grade stuff. Not that it's not important. Believe me. I mean he's absolutely right and picking on these issues for example show vulnerability. That's huge. And in the work that I do and trust that's one of the leading things. My question is why did I need to know that proven through some biochemical study. I don't. And not only that it's it's worse if you actually bring it in demand. What do you do with that observation to say you know chemicals are associated with a certain vulnerability. It's akin to in my experience when some people say well can you make money with trust. You know how do I know it's going to be profitable. Never mind wonder. That's the wrong way to talk about trust. People who ask that question frankly are not going to be persuaded by however much data you could throw at it anyway. And I think the same is true here. If if somebody is questioning why should I be vulnerable citing the evidence of oxytocin levels is very unlikely to convince them. So what's the use of it. If you're a professional advisor a management consultant a financial advisor it's just not a very powerful argument. You know more powerful arguments are well so and so over here in out or think about the Oracle of Omaha you know. Here's what he did. Storytelling is more useful. Drawing on analogies is more useful surveys are more useful way down the list it is let me describe the chemical reaction that happens in people's heads when this issue comes up. So it's really an argument about utility and role and relevance.   Tripp: [00:22:46] When you say utility I think application is that.   Charles: [00:22:49] Yes.   Tripp: [00:22:49] OK. So. So in essence it's kind of like it's not showing us really anything new it may be showing us that the science says that it's something that that's there but it's not telling us anything that we didn't already know.   Charles: [00:23:06] Yes OK in a nutshell that's it. OK. Telling us anything we didn't already know. And furthermore it's not particularly useful in explaining things that even the people know. Okay. So yeah.   Tripp: [00:23:18] Okay. Yeah. I you know I sit there and as I reflect on you say I'm Deming's thinking and I'm trying to pull together some of the or you know theory of knowledge piece or philosophy piece with the only psychology piece which which you do definitely write to you don't see that neuroscience as an advancement on the psychology piece or giving us key insights about how people behave and why they behave that way.   Charles: [00:23:52] That's correct. And it is nothing to do with truth. I mean a description of a phenomenon like me raising my hand a biochemical description of that is 100 percent as accurate as a poetic description or a an argument from me understanding something in context. It's not a question of right or wrong. It is a question of relevance and impact and power.   Tripp: [00:24:13] Okay. All right. So I did so and I'm just going to kind of kind of go back through things because you're giving me a different way of looking at things this way. As your as your email did there.   Tripp: [00:24:25] There's also a gentleman by the name of Orin Clark. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He wrote a book called Pitch Anything.   Tripp: [00:24:33] So he's a guy who's a who is basically in the world of getting money for ventures basically. Right. So might be for movies some might be for business. It could be anything but he is basically that that's his common role and when it thinks he discovered and he was one of kind of first turned me on to all this is you know here are the reasons and there's a lot of it could be an interesting read for you. I'd be curious does that. Oh I don't get. Yeah. What what you're thinking is I. But he kind of pulled in you know the three parts of the brain. He talks about the crocodile brain the bad brain the neocortex and. And that when you're when you first meet somebody you know it's kind of like a fight or flight thing like that first e-mail I say to you you know do I want to write you know what I want to take this on or do I want to you know which. Which way do you want to go and how do I present. I think a lot of the strategies they had in the Trusted Advisor help mitigate some of those issues associated with that because the whole thing is about the things you've already talked about authenticity and those types of things. But he in essence took that process of pitching you know for money and different things and took parts of what I hope. I don't know that he would even say it was neuroscience but but things he learned from Malcolm Gladwell and folks like that.   Tripp: [00:25:57] And he started to say hey there's something here. When we pitch you know we need to be aware that for. For instance he talks about a lot about being the alpha versus the beta. That you get into what's called a beta trap meaning you have low status associated with it with where you are and you don't want to be there. You know how can you set up a situation where you're you don't have you know low status. So I see a lot of the strategies and maybe that's the wrong word to use that you talk about in the trusted advisor that kind of parallels some of things that that he's talking about in there but he's using the neuroscience or my words not his to kind of explain you know what's happening in the brain and why you need to be presented in a different way. And so I found that useful from my perspective because it's kind of like OK people are taking something and that's what made me start to dig deeper into this I'm reading every book I can find on neuroscience now just to you know what are people concluding. And you know interesting as I shared with you Dr. Zak and you know David Rock apparently at odds with each other. So I'm not sure of why but yeah.   Tripp: [00:27:12] So so there's I almost feel like we're in this world and where we got these kind of rough rocks if you will and they're all bouncing against each other and eventually all kind of smooth out into something and maybe it won't be. Maybe the path that you say you were not really learning thing we're new we're getting more reinforcement about kind of what we already knew anyway from interactions with people and in organizations.   Charles: [00:27:38] Yeah. Well again the I I was not aware of the conflict between Zak and David Rock. I'd be curious to find out what that is.   Charles: [00:27:48] But I'll bet you 9 to one. They both are in agreement or disagreement with what I'm talking about.   Tripp: [00:27:54] Yeah. But but again as I told you my my main thing is when people offer a perspective and you're obviously a just pick created and someone who's a een applying this for a long period time this person's got some something to say. And again that's why I wanted to have you on. You're very thoughtful in your in your approach to things and and you know I think people should hear. But you know what you have to say.   Charles: [00:28:18] I think you know just to stay on a little piece that you mentioned there you're really talking about persuasion and influence. Anybody who's interested in that. I find the most persuasive person in that area is Robert Cialdini who writes with I mean he's he's got legitimate scientific background but he writes more in the terms of pop psychology. Mm hmm. So he is first book called influence the science of persuasion lists. I think it's seven different factors that lead to human influence and some of them are pretty well-known. They're like act now supply limited or all your friends are doing it. It's telling to me and what I've taken from him and exploring the notion of trust. The first factor that he mentions and in his later life I see him mentioning more and more doesn't sound like that at all. It's the notion of reciprocity as in if I do X for you you will respond in like terms. It goes back to fight or flight. If I approach somebody in a friendly manner it improves the odds that they will react that way if I approach somebody in a an antagonistic fearful manner. You know you get back what you put out. And in fairness to Zak he actually mentioned his reciprocity yes at the front of his article as well he should. I think he's absolutely correct about that. The question I'm raising is having raised that which is the more powerful way to get that notion across to people in my own work. And again I spent 20 years in management consulting and another 20 doing this trust work. I have found it's far more important. For example are far more useful if I'm in front of a room and I'm trying to explain this notion of reciprocity a walk off the podium walk into the audience go up to some person smile at them lean over and extend my right hand in a gesture that we all know was a handshake.   Charles: [00:30:10] Well guess what. Every single time you do that that other person is going to reciprocate and they're going to shake my hand. Why. Because then it's just hard wired into the human psyche. I mean you can make a very good book on that ninety nine point nine times out of 100 that's going happen. You reciprocate now and so Zak and I agree on that. My question is who's more persuasive in standing in front of a room and explaining saying here's what's happened to the neurochemistry in your brain when I extend my hand. Or me saying let's look at a few examples. When you go into a sale and you do X or you do Y or when you're making a political speech do X or Y and when you look at this historical story that we all know from from literature what's going on here X or Y. Those are persuasive practical ways of getting a point across to human beings. And while there is nothing untruthful you can describe human beings one hundred percent in mechanical chemical ways. But depending on what you're trying to do that explanation is next to useless or it's terribly important. I mean let me be clear if we're trying to develop medicines pharmacological solutions understanding ways to improve brain surgery understanding certain psychological therapies I think the neuroscience stuff is critical. It's cutting edge. It's great. We should celebrate it and get more of it. But when you apply it to some of these other areas of inner human interactions you know and the utility is way down the list compared to things like storytelling examples engagement and so forth.   Tripp: [00:31:43] Okay. Yeah. And actually that's one of the things in pitch anything with a working class a part of the pitch is as a story to in order to ticket people's brains engage.   Tripp: [00:31:54] But I've got one thing I was gonna mention is I didn't actually read Robert's holding his Pre suasion book. I've not read the older and I have it the psychology influence of persuasion. There's a lot of great stuff in there.   Charles: [00:32:06] Oh definitely.   Tripp: [00:32:07] It's a very useful you know type type of book. There's another book I'd be curious on your thoughts about so called Decisive. And again it it it's written by Chip Heath. Oh yeah. And he talks about the fact that you know things like when you're going to make a decision.   Tripp: [00:32:30] People kind of narrow their focus in this kind of backs up some of the things Malcolm Gladwell talks about too as well especially if there's pressure on you. You have a tendency to narrow your focus and and by virtue of the fact that that your focus has narrowed narrowed that becomes kind of an either or type of condition when you're looking at making decisions as opposed to looking at multiple options. And he also then this into confirmation bias and you know he talks about you know things of that sort.   Tripp: [00:33:00] And and to me it starts to crossover and I think you know the fact I guess I guess this is what I kind of what I've concluded especially after going through some of Oren Klaff stuff. And even Danish stuff is you know the story has to be compelling. And one of the things his psychology seems to be old news and forget about philosophy philosophy is like all right.   Tripp: [00:33:28] Since the beginning a man right. You know associated with it and that's not to discount its importance in understanding although I have to say some of the philosophy books you know that are written are seem to be written for each other as far as philosophers go.   Tripp: [00:33:43] I mean I guess I can't get anything out of it.   Charles: [00:33:45] So right yes.   Tripp: [00:33:47] So it becomes very difficult and even Deming when he read Mind and the World Order you know he's he basically said started Chapter 7 and 8 it's that because there is the with. Yeah.   Tripp: [00:34:00] So because it's a little bit difficult to get something out of it I think people today and you know they're looking for that fresh thing and Oren Klaff really hits this hard.   Tripp: [00:34:12] I think even Sodini hits it hits it pretty hard is it has to be that that the newness of something gets people's attention.   Tripp: [00:34:20] And even if it's kind of the maybe not the right thing that they're looking for answers associated with Why is this happening and they're looking for fresh work even if it only supports what's actually already known right.   Tripp: [00:34:35] It hesitancy then to get people's attention.   Charles: [00:34:37] And I think that you know part of why the field of sales will never fall short. Everybody's looking for the newest band you know is like a breath short kind of reason going to be first in line. I mean what you just Yeah right is. I would call that kind of a universal attribute of people were looking for the newest shiny object.   Tripp: [00:34:55] Yeah. So it's in our nature you know like like say you like you like putting out your hand. Most people are gonna know that that's that's for a handshake.   Tripp: [00:35:03] It's kind of the same thing and so I'd say you know from one perspective because I've read you know and I've got many many more books so they want to read that you know associated with the subject neuroscience it's new. And people are saying what can I glean from this and maybe what they glean from it is the old lessons that we learned in philosophy that were then again really reinforced by psych. What did we learn anything really new there or was it just something that we conclude. I think and I don't I think it's too early to know whether neuroscience is going to have any any offering you know associated with that it's just there's too many I know for you kind of the podcast I don't know I think.   Charles: [00:35:45] I think that you know what we just said about newness and the attraction and the ability to let people discover new that's true. I don't think that's going to happen in this area. OK. I just by its nature I mean you know applying neuroscience to management and leadership is based on hope the thought the idea that if you can describe things in chemical terms it's going to lead to something you know terribly useful. I just don't see that happening much at all.   Tripp: [00:36:17] And I don't know how much of a play you know does it offer anything actually new I think is kind of where you go through its new science but does it offer anything new for the perspective that. But but if that's kind of a key that will help people.   Charles: [00:36:36] It's not it's not just new. It's also useful. Yeah I get a I'm I could I could given a new. Yeah this is you know neuroscience is new and fascinating just because of that. But is this going to be a useful again. I don't see it as any different than saying Oh maybe if we translate this into Latin IT'LL BE NO IT'S LIKE IT'S NOT GONNA BE USEFUL it's the same stuff.   Tripp: [00:36:59] Mm hmm.   Charles: [00:37:00] And I think it's it's a distraction. And by the way this is the neuroscience just through neuroscience. Let me not just pick on that. I do a lot with tech companies. You know Google LinkedIn etc..   Charles: [00:37:11] And as you can imagine the people who are adept in those areas they're super deep into analytical left brain explanatory deductive logical thinking and so forth. Those people tend to discount the more conventional wisdom soft skills stuff and so on. And in some ways that you know that the passion to describe for example I get a lot of requests.   Charles: [00:37:33] How do you measure trust. And my argument is Don't even go there. You know that then the compulsion to measure something is itself reflective of not really understanding the boundaries of usefulness. You know it's like if you had a conversation with your spouse and you said you know I want our marriage to get better why don't we set a baseline. Let's agree seventy nine point one on a scale of one hundred and then let's measure every week how I'm doing on improving our marriage if any spouse that I know of is likely to say get out of here. Don't treat this that way.   Charles: [00:38:12] And so the neuroscience is just one more in in an over inclination to reductionist thinking a little bit over belief that you know we'll discover the cures to all things if we can just get the the artificial intelligence stuff right and we can just scale. I mean look at what Zuckerberg is accused of continually thinking things are going to solve all these problems by just doing more connecting more people in more ways.   Charles: [00:38:38] Meanwhile there's issues and they come from exactly that kind of thinking well.   Tripp: [00:38:43] And you will find any argument from a Deming philosophy perspective. You know he would say the most important figures are unknown and unknowable. All right. So so so there's so yeah.   Tripp: [00:38:55] So from that from that perspective I would agree but maybe we are trained to measure something that that can't be measured can we gain new insights from neuroscience and how do we conduct or maybe a structure the way that the organizations I guess is kind of the question you're. But your response to that is you know kind of a definitive no no. That we're not going to get anything from it.   Charles: [00:39:22] Well again let's let's be clear. I would give ground I'd cede ground on whether we're gonna to learn something new and that's OK we'll say we're going to learn something new meaning in this case a different way of describing phenomena.   Charles: [00:39:33] The practical utility of that is really more of what I'm getting at. Yes. So if you can I would argue that about half of what we call trust. You can definitely measure about half a foot falls into the unmeasurable but even in the measurable. What do you do with the fact that you're going to measure it the default business response is let collect data on it. Let's break it down to the most discrete component that we can. Let's set goals and let's reward people for achieving those goals. Now if you're talking about something like reliability or credibility and you can you can somewhat do that. You can track people's performance against promises that's useful. But if you try to track people on are you achieving better vulnerability or even worse yet. are you benevolent beneficent towards your clients. Do you have your clients best interests at heart. Well if you start measuring how people have their client's best interests at heart and you start rewarding. For doing it you've just ruined everything. How do you reward people for being unselfish. It's self-contradictory. It causes people to mistake the measurement for the thing that it is supposed to be measuring and to behave in perverse ways. So I think that the ultimate question really is is it useful. And I guess that's my concern. It's not terribly useful.   Tripp: [00:40:48] So let me ask you this then Charles as far as what would be useful what's put us put neuroscience to the side here for a minute if we're to advance the thinking that's going on you know from a management perspective where would our time be best spent.   Charles: [00:41:07] Right. Well that's a great question. And let me answer it within the narrow purview of trust which is what I've focused on for 19 years now. It's a great example because trust also suffers from a lot of vagueness and lack of lack of definition.   Charles: [00:41:26] You've seen it all. All your listeners have seen hundreds of examples of headlines as saying new study shows trust in banking is down. Let's just take that kind of thing. Trust in banking is down and we all go out. I believe the study. I believe the statistical accuracy and relevance of whatever came up with. But what does that mean. It could mean one of at least two things it could mean that financial institutions like banks have become less trustworthy. You know just look at the news on Wells Fargo and. Or alternatively it could mean something very different which is that people over time and become less inclined to trust banks. That's a very different thing.   Charles: [00:42:03] The first one is a violation of trustworthiness and norms on the part of it would be trusted organization like a bank and they're in the right responses to that regulatory using the laws to prosecute hiring firing people and so forth. On the other hand if the problem is people become less inclined to trust banks that's a PR problem. That's a communications problem. Very different to go slightly analogous to that. The staff will tell you that in the United States in the last 20 years violent crime has gone down. That's a factual statement reduction in violent crime. At the same time fear of violent crime has gone up. So that's a case where it's the perception that the problem not not the crime itself. And if all you're doing is saying you know if you're a violent you know you're violent crime is up. Oh my gosh. That doesn't tell you.   Charles: [00:43:00] And I think it's like that in trust. So here's my answer you break it down it's practically humanly meaningful components and there are two there's a trustor and a trustee and the result of those two interacting is trust or lack of trust. The characteristics of a trust door to the person who initiates the trust interaction and they're taking a risk. That's the essence of of trusting the person who is trusted or wants to be trust dead is we call them trustworthy or not trustworthy. And the result of their interactions becomes a certain level of trust. So trust is a noun properly belongs to the result of the interactions. Trust is a verb properly refers to the person taking the risk and trustworthiness an adjective properly refers to those who would be trusted. Now you can actually do something. You know my little book The Trusted Advisor I think part of what made it popular was we had a simple for factor equation for describing trustworthiness. And most of our audience likes equations you know and that's their language. And we initially intended it just as a conceptual model for anybody interested it's credibility plus reliability plus intimacy all divided by self orientation. Two of those factors are kind of measurable and behavioral namely credibility reliability and the other to intimacy and low self orientation are much more interior psychological you know quote soft unquote kinds of things. It happens by the way that we have about eight years after we wrote the book it suddenly dawned on me Hey this a book a great many great self-assessment tool. So we pulled five questions together for each of those four factors. Five comes forward is 20.   Charles: [00:44:49] I don't know why I thought 20 was a good number and just seemed to forget and we put it up on the web and wait for the crowds to roll in. Well they trickled in but we've now had over a hundred thousand people take it and we can draw a couple of very clear and very interesting conclusions. I named two of them. Number one women score as more trustworthy than men. Not only that but almost all the outperformance of women on this score is due to their performance on one of those four variables. It's not credibility it's not reliability. It's not self orientation. It is intimacy. And by the way. If you sort of step back and say what would you guess. That's exactly what you guess. In fact I've given a talk about that Dana. Roughly 300 times and two hundred and ninety seven. Literally only three exceptions over the years I've been doing this. Which is about 1 percent only with only three exceptions. When I asked the group the crowd what do you think. They said women comments. And that's right up there with handshakes. Women I mean people say probably women and then asked the Guess Which factor. They're also pretty good at guessing intimacy. Now one more data point. There are lists surveys done by other you know by survey professionals Pew. Gallup Yankelovich who asked most and least trusted professions over the years and across different countries and very consistent results at the bottom of the list.   Charles: [00:46:15] You can guess politicians lawyers used car salesmen top of the list. People have a harder time guessing it's not lawyers it's not doctrines it's not teachers it is nurses nurses with with one exception in the past 20 years and then exception with the year 2002 where firemen were number one. That was the year after 9/11. Unsurprising but with every. And then the next year I went back to nurses. Nursing is an eighty nine percent female profession and if you had to pick one of those four attributes as defining the nature of successful nursing whether it's a male nurse or female nurse it's probably intimacy you know the job of a nurse is to make you feel completely comfortable sharing saying anything you know we are literally and figuratively naked in front of nurses. So it turns out when we ran a regression equation on the data that we had collected you know which of those four factors really is the most powerful describing trustworthiness it's intimacy and we you know we basically define intimacy as the ability to make other people feel secure and comfortable sharing things with you. Now is that is that scientific. Oh it's just the model that we came up with to heuristic we describe. you know what's going on.   Charles: [00:47:29] I don't argue that that has any more physical reality relevance than any other model. It just seemed to work pretty well and I still think it does. It's a common sensical definition and for what it's worth that's what the data show. And that also seems to get pretty general common sense affirmation. So what do you do with all that. That one's pretty clear. I can tell you what to do if you're an accounting firm if you're a law firm. If you're a tech support in a tech company you almost certainly need to get better at your intimacy skills. But what does that mean. That means having conversations in a certain way. It means having a certain amount of personal courage to bring up difficult subjects and to lead with it. It requires a little bit of internal development like you know get over your fight or flight take the risk of not all that bad. That's the kind of stuff you can do something with as opposed to 90 percent of what's out there on the subject of trust which is at the level of trust in banking is down or you know trust in Bolivia is slightly lower than Uruguay. Not that there's anything wrong with those descriptions but I don't think they give you a practical notion and that's kind of the same. The flip side of the argument I was having in neuroscience. What do you do with that right.   Tripp: [00:48:42] Well you know if it's history and probably so it can start to win this down a little bit. But you know in our emails back and forth you mentioned Alfie Kohn. Yeah. And you know so this gets into Debbie Deming philosophy with the four things you talked about earlier. Systems thinking theory variation theory knowledge and psychology and and one of the things that we find over and over again in organizations. No I can't say we did any at a depth of study but you know Dr. Deming worked with a number of and I've worked with many companies over the years is that reward systems drive wrong behavior.   Tripp: [00:49:20] Yes they do have an influence on an individual but right within the organization they will drive the wrong behaviors associated with it. So you know one of the things that that's coming from the neuroscience side is more what I would leverage to help support that thinking.   Tripp: [00:49:40] And that's that's kind of where I grasp on to it I think you know from a Deming perspective is you seen this stuff in there and then basically saying Yeah it does drive that. So in essence the wrong behavior. And here are the things and fundamentally you're right. I mean if I if I if I sat back and I looked at it it's not anything that people haven't written before but the fact that it is kind of new research that it gets people's attention to be able to say geez if if psychology is telling me that and philosophy is telling me that and systems thinking and telling me that in neuroscience maybe I shouldn't be doing that.   Tripp: [00:50:19] And yet even with Dan Pink's you know presentations Alfie come before him with you know can't. Contests and Punished by Rewards to books that really.   Charles: [00:50:29] Great books.   [00:50:30] Yeah. That that he wrote back in the Deming days right. Oh. When Deming was around. They still stand. And they science still stands but people just seem to ignore it. So.   [00:50:42] What does that tell you.   [00:50:43] It's in the culture. Like you said it's the handshake. You know everybody knows that it works. It does work. Nobody can refute the fact that rewards don't work. But it's how they're used and when they're used you know and associated with that. And you know Dr. Zak is a little bit familiar with Deming. So he I get a little concerned when I first started reading this book because he was with you like everybody else that I've written about neuroscience had kind of gotten into this. How do we make better a performance appraisals which is another thing. Deming railed against. Well. The answer is you don't do performance appraisals.   Charles: [00:51:17] Right.   Tripp: [00:51:17] I can give feedback without doing that. And you know so whether it's the reward systems or the performance appraisals some of the things that railed against all the science has pointed basically that we're we're doing this wrong and they talk about something that that compromises trust in an organization when bad behaviors are running. I've got to believe at least and maybe you have a different view on it is that were were designing systems or organizations in such a way that is self-defeating trust it just in the way that they're structured.   Charles: [00:51:58] Let me give you a quick story to that point.   Charles: [00:52:00] I was in first of all stories are very powerful because they help people come to conclusions without thinking they've been bamboozled into doing it. They want it allows them to put their own spin on it. I was standing I was giving a talk to the Top 40 or 50 so people at Accenture some years ago and before me was the CEO guy named Bill Green at the time.   Charles: [00:52:21] No no relation. And Bill Green had just finished outlining some huge reorganization for all of Accenture and somebody raised their hand and said Hey Bill have we lined up the incentives properly so that if I'm sitting in Australia get a call from our guy in Bulgaria I'm going to be incentive to do do the right thing and answer him. And Bill Green got visibly angry got up out of his chair on the stage. Any any leaned out any point and he said I never want to hear that question in this company again if there's ever any conflict between doing the right thing and the incentives. You do the right thing and we'll fix the incentives later.   Charles: [00:52:58] Now in that moment I mean it was a very impressive you know 40 people who were the leaders of Accenture got that message loud and clear in that moment. And that goes to how you actually do this stuff. You don't tweak the cheese for the rats in the maze. You do it by by leadership of living you know walking the talk all that stuff. You do it by repeatedly invoking a few principles and applying into very specific situations. So I think that the role of role modeling is particularly apt in and when it comes to trust. And my quick answer and then we're running out of time. My quick answer how you create this in an organization is don't do the incentives routine. This is higher level human stuff. What you do is you pick a few concepts a few principles and you relentlessly apply them. It doesn't have to be leaders who just have to be influential people who sign up by saying I think I know what we mean by transparency and right here this is an example.   Charles: [00:53:56] I think I know what you mean by collaboration and right here. This is what that means in this situation. So done right. There is room for tweaking and you know the various not nudges and all that kind of thing but the objective should be to create what I call a trust based organization which is an organization within which people individuals behave in trusting and trustworthy manners toward each other and towards all their stakeholders. It's not a characteristic of the organization. The key is not organization design. The key is certainly not metrics and rewards. It's creating an environment in which people behave in a trusting and trustworthy manner towards each other as individuals. And from that grows the culture and from that you can then say well this company is trusted.   Tripp: [00:54:42] Brilliant. Well said that's a that's not only a great example. But that's that's a probably a good way to conclude this although I do have one last question I ask everyone. It's when I people actually make fun of me for which is Is there anything that I fail to ask that you wish I would have. Or is there any clarification of anything that you've said to this point that that you'd like to take the opportunity to to shall offer.   Charles: [00:55:09] I'll offer one quick thing. The question you didn't ask is What's the one single thing people can do to increase trust and and actually as a simple answer we could spend another hour unpacking it. But it's basically listen and it's not listen to find the data it's not listen to verify your hypothesis. It is. As a sign of respect it functions just like the handshake. If you really listen to someone and something is very clear about this they will listen back. So if you want to be listened to if you want people to buy from me if you want people take your advice. The key is shut up and listen and allow the natural human response of reciprocating. And then they'll listen to you and everything gets better. So the key is listening.   Tripp: [00:55:49] Excellent. Very good. Well we certainly appreciate you sharing your time Charles. And like I said.   Charles: [00:55:56] My pleasure Tripp. Thank you.   Tripp: [00:55:57] Oh it's been I mean you've opened my mind quite a few things in this conversation. I'm sure you do that on a regular basis and people will appreciate that.   Tripp: [00:56:09] So thank you very much.   Charles: [00:56:11] Thank you.   Tripp: [00:56:18] Thank you for listening to the minor noodles podcast. We are currently offering a PDA titled Five surprising findings from neuroscience to help you understand your organization. Just go to Mind Your noodles. dot com forward slash five findings.   Tripp: [00:56:41] No spaces. Also if any listeners know of. companies or people applying neuroscience to their organization we are interested in talking to them. Just have them email me at Tripp to our IP. at minor noodles dot com.  

Well I've seen it twice now and its time for FULL SPOILER REVIEW!!!! Let me know what you think of the movie. I only went over the key points of the movie didn't discuss every single little thing. Hope you enjoy! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/fatgeekyreviews/support

Everyone needs to be able to focus right? Well I've tried hundreds of different ideas, gadgets and strategies to focus. The one thing that's helped me most is so simple, you're probably using it right now. Listen in and find out what it is.

Well I've never been one to mince words anyways

[fusion_builder_container hundred_percent="no" equal_height_columns="no" menu_anchor="" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" id="" background_color="" background_image="" background_position="center center" background_repeat="no-repeat" fade="no" background_parallax="none" parallax_speed="0.3" video_mp4="" video_webm="" video_ogv="" video_url="" video_aspect_ratio="16:9" video_loop="yes" video_mute="yes" overlay_color="" video_preview_image="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" padding_top="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" padding_right=""][fusion_builder_row][fusion_builder_column type="1_1" layout="1_1" background_position="left top" background_color="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" border_position="all" spacing="yes" background_image="" background_repeat="no-repeat" padding_top="" padding_right="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" margin_top="0px" margin_bottom="0px" class="" id="" animation_type="" animation_speed="0.3" animation_direction="left" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" center_content="no" last="no" min_height="" hover_type="none" link=""][fusion_text] Watch the live interview below [/fusion_text][fusion_youtube id="https://youtu.be/ETQuFR4pf5M" alignment="center" width="" height="" autoplay="false" api_params="&rel=0" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" /][fusion_text] P026 Transcription (was completed by automated process. Please ignore any speech-to-text errors) [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Beatty Carmichael and welcome to another session of get sellers calling you a real estate podcast and I'm excited today because I get to interview just an amazing friend of mine a friend who's been with friends since 2012. Actually one of our very first clients and that's Stuart Sutton out of Austin Texas area so student Harry Stuart. How are you doing. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me today. Well I'm excited to have you because I used to pick your brains many years ago if you recall we did mastermind conference calls and I learned more about marketing for real estate agents than I ever could have. And you just been a wealth of knowledge there. [00:00:49] Well that's very nice of you I learned a tremendous amount from me too. [00:00:52] But we have definitely enjoyed working together. I just kind of set the stage. I know you don't brag about yourself so let me brag about you so people understand who it is I'm interviewing. You've been in business for a few years. Is that correct. Just started. Just started. How many years ago. Already for about thirty four years ago. And you are a Diamond Club member and a is at masters. Why were those two levels. [00:01:24] Well with Remax I'm going to get RE MAX for I just hit seven years. OK. I do have the lifetime achievement award with the chairman's job is an annual award which means you have to make over 500 thousand in the Diamond Club is the club you have to make over million a year. So yes I mean in each of those. [00:01:46] Very good. And and when you and I met we the thing that impressed me so much. [00:01:52] One of many is at the time you were doing between 80 and 100 transactions a year all personal production. And you were asked you know how many hours a week do you work. And you said between 35 and 40 hours. Do you remember that day. Yes sir. And it blew me away that you could have that type of volume on those few hours. And is that part that I really want to talk about on this call and just to understand what you do now. I know things have changed a little bit. So kind of give me an idea of where things are now if you don't mind. [00:02:30] Well we're just plugging away. I've narrowed down the number of transactions I do in my goal when I when I came with Remax was very straightforward and that was I want to do fewer transactions but I don't want any less income. So I had had a big team and we've done hundreds of deals and and all that. And I just was changing the way that I approach the business. So I now manage each of my clients myself by each of my team members manages each of their clients themselves. We do have staff that helps us but I have narrowed down from doing as you said 80 to 100 at that time and actually the year before I met you I've done 111 sales. Just personally now when you add my team in the volume is pretty impressive. But as a team we don't nobody knows what we do in the way of volume because each of my agents keeps their own. I let them keep their production for themselves. And unless you know who all my team members are a contract that nobody really knows what our volume is except from our Remax broker when we do that it's just it's real simple. I've been there done that with the big team in big volume and I want my agents to really get all the accolades that they worked so hard to get. So it's not just the you know I'm selfless I'd love to have you know all that production under my name but it's time for them to to you know they're just so proud when they go over a certain landmark and have a certain level of production I've got six agents that work for me and for make very good incomes very good incomes. [00:04:03] We know that integrity I have to. [00:04:06] So for the folks listening when we first got started we do a unique thing with with our services over at Master grammar and in identifying people who respond to a postcard. And I remember one of your friends that you helped you with marketing and then a coach. I think for many years he came out with something that you thought he kind of was trying to knock us off and you got so upset with him. I mean you were telling me you weren't talking to him on that and I had to hold you back but your integrity of the fact that someone would possibly take something you had shared and then turn around and use it you know and try to duplicate something I don't know if you recall that but. But when you were talking about your agents and letting them keep their own production and so it shows off for their record and share years I just think that you know that's what makes you so special in my eyes. Is it just that level of integrity. Well thank you that's not for me to say. So let's hope this is real quick. So you've got a you've got a thriving business and you've got a well honed machine. In terms of how you do it. Tell me where you generate money because I know you're talking about different different income streams. So can you kind of give me a breakdown right. [00:05:31] In Europe we've really gotten it down to a general. We've got it down to a science. But the processes that we take are consistent. It's not exciting but consistency means a lot. And I'm really trying to get that through to each of my agents and we have I say we. Want when I say we I'm talking about me and my staff and in my mind it's really kind of try to model what I do. But I have four areas of income. It all comes from marketing. I've got a farm area. I have a niche which is an expanded farm area meaning a specialization in a type of property. And I've got my past clients and customers. And then I've got my online market. So those are my excuse me those are my four sources of income. My agents really try to model that in in in growing their businesses. They're doing a great job I said for the six had really high incomes well a fifth one just hit a milestone. He did more business in the last two months and most able to do in two years so. Wow. Got it for him. [00:06:38] So if you were to take those four income streams and kind of rank them how would you write them from top to best production down lowest production. [00:06:48] So the top two without question has clients and customers and that should be everybody's first source but my niche is extremely lucrative so there are years when I'll make more money from my niche than I do from my past clients and customers. In an area of specialization. One of my agents for example specializes in townhomes. Another one specializes in homes with views. [00:07:11] I specialize in homes on an acre or more and so the members of that particular population see me as someone who has an expertise that they need. We don't just want them to think well you know it'd be nice if we had that. We want to create a need. So because of my expertise in that arena sellers call me and quite often I'm the only one I talk to. [00:07:38] Very interesting so talk to me in terms of what you do in marketing. If you were to do do something different for your personal list and your your one acre plus. [00:07:47] And if so what would you do. [00:07:49] Yes well so I'm going to I don't know going to break down the niche in the farm because really they're very similar but the niche is just more lucrative unless you have a farm that has twenty five hundred five thousand houses and you can just keep growing it. But my niche you can just keep growing. So I've got an agent in another part of town that I'm not going to grab down there but he takes care of all the one acre plus clients in that part of town. So there are really three areas of marketing in a niche or a farm number one is the general population of that niche right. In other words the areas that you want to work the locations et cetera. The second is what I call a targeted and guess who needs to sell their home on acreage probably more than anybody else. When that time comes. Seniors. So I target people who have an exemption of 65 or more a tax exemption. And we market to them when they need to sell their home on it. Could you give us a call. The third is expires. Anyone whose home has expired in the last several years but they've never listed again. We market two very strongly and that's a very powerful database. So those are the three. Now if you're talking about a farm you have three different ones. You've got the general farm then you've got the expired. Same thing. And I'm going to tell you how powerful this is maybe in stopped me if you want me to quit rambling you want to ask a question but let me tell you a powerful. I've got a farm with eight hundred and ninety three people and I have 74 people who have expired in the last three years and never we listed out as more people from this group of 74 than the rest of the eight ninety three. Really. Yes because differently to them than we do the rest of the farm. [00:09:42] So like how do you market differently because most of the times when you're marketing to expire says you're on the phone and calling them as soon as they expire and you try to drop by and you're doing something different. [00:09:56] You don't need to do that with these because here's the thing. If I'm marketing to the farm all eight hundred and ninety three people almost people who expire are getting that mailing. Right. But then I'm marketing to the 74. In addition in sending marketing pieces that are poignant to somebody who's had their home inspired. That makes sense. [00:10:20] It does. But let's elaborate a little bit more because I think this goes into. [00:10:24] You were talking about when connect two very divergent dots years back you were doing a lot of postcard mailings and then you understood and learned marketing. And it turned your business around here you're talking about doing something different for those in. But I have an idea that the concept between both of these is a same concept. [00:10:47] Can you take it give an example to the general farm area. I may send a marketing piece that compels a response to go to a landing page to learn about something like my new level of service to an expired. They're going to receive a postcard specifically about a home that says this home was listed with another agent for six months and then Stuart listed it and sold it in eight days. So the very best marketing I can do for expired is to show them success with somebody that was in their exact situation. [00:11:22] That makes sense so you're making it very specific to them. [00:11:28] So you're marketing to the entire farm and then these that are experts you're sending additional marketing pieces. But I guess most of these are saying this home was on the market for all these days or months and then I sold it. And so they're constantly saying that you were successful. In the same environment that they were a failure that the previous right. [00:11:50] That's right. And then the third area of a farm is out of town owners in some farms have a lot more of them printed on the price range and all that. But so we sent unique marketing pieces to people who don't live in the house they own in the farm area. So you've got the general farm population expired in the farm and they had a town owners in the farm. And those are three specific marketing databases Wow. [00:12:21] So you're kind of the word that comes to mind is pass and you're really passing that market and then very specifically targeting them for their unique needs. [00:12:34] Right. For example if you if you owned a rent house in my farm you'd get a mailing that said hey if you decide to sell your rent house in this area you need to make sure you qualify. And so if you're in out of town owner you're going to receive a card that speaks to you. And I actually offer a guarantee to you because what is the problem that out of town owners have. Well they don't know their houses are vacant they don't know what's going on with it. Well we guarantee that we're going to check in every week and send you a check list showing hey all the lights are working. The doors are locking the windows are more thermostats. We have a whole checklist. So we're going to we have a guarantee that we're going to do that for you every single week that your home is on the market with us. And if we miss any single week or Market Commission at 100 bucks. [00:13:23] Wow. So now as I'm listening you go through this the thought that hits me that may be hitting some other folks is this is a lot of work. I mean it's not just you know go to this Web site a peer upload it just sell photo send it out and then go about your way over here you're actually spending time creating these pieces. [00:13:44] Yes sir. Yes sir. Now once we have a good marketing piece in place blog company we can just adapt and edit and make some changes. Yes OK. You know there's a lot of work in setting up any cash flow system any income stream. There's a lot of work and get this set up. Maintenance becomes a different story. And that's why I can work 35 to 40 hours a week because I'm maintaining several systems that I've had in place for years. [00:14:09] That makes sense I was going to ask you that kind of leading the follow up question to that leading question. Yes it takes a lot of work. My question was going to ask does it make a lot of money. [00:14:19] Well you know what I I'm very blessed to be one of those guys I decided. You remember the book that came out about how to. Be a Millionaire in your underwear. You remember that book. [00:14:29] I remember something like that. Yes. [00:14:31] And that might not be the exact power. I'm blessed to be one of those guys that can sit at home in work literally wearing shorts and flip flops until it's time for an appointment. Then I'll get up and put on a suit. Yes I can do that and I'm very blessed to be in the position where I can work on my schedule on my terms and make a very nice income. [00:14:53] All right so let's talk on because one dig a little bit deeper in if you don't mind the concept of marketing OK. [00:15:03] You learned something from at one point in time that when you applied it to your existing mailings it totally turned everything around. And and that's the same stuff that you're applying right now. Can you help those who are listening to kind of understand marketing at a really simple level so that those people who say this is a lot of work. I don't know even where to begin in kind of give them a starting point. Does that make sense why I'm asking. [00:15:28] Yeah it does and the overall most simple basic marketing world is find out what people want and need. Make it easy for them to get. And the biggest thing that anyone ever taught me. You may. You did meet Randy Smith was really a marketing mentor. Brilliant marketer took all the marketing rules outside of real estate and brought them into real estate. And that's what I try to teach my agents to do. But it's very straightforward. Quit selling and start solving. So what is the problem that the consumer has and how can you solve it. And the easiest example of that ever is Domino's Pizza they were the first ones to guarantee delivery and a certain amount of time because they solved the problem what were their consumers BIGGEST PROBLEM. WELL DIDN'T GET THROWN type atomic out there. It was cold and without it the worst thing is it got there late. It was cold and they still had to pay for it. So what was their marketing like. It was. It's fast it's hot or it's free. Remember that. [00:16:40] I do. I do a date. [00:16:42] Same thing in real estate. You're an out of town owner. Your biggest problem is hate. I don't know what's going on with my house I don't know. I mean we have some either myself or my assistant. We'll check on your vacant house every single week and we guarantee to do that. So we've solved a problem that every agent could solve but nobody else has put it into words. Does that make sense. [00:17:04] Yeah it does give me a couple other examples so that those listening can kind of grasp and start to apply in their own situation where they can where they can use it. [00:17:16] So what's a problem for a home seller who's just thinking about selling a home. They're not quite sure OK what can I get this call all the time and I'm sure a lot of other agents do as well. And that's what do we do to get our house ready. Where should we spend our time and money. Well we have a program where we actually provide a stager an inspector handyman a painter a window washer at our expense to get your home ready for the market. So now instead of well what do we do. [00:17:45] What do we do how do we do it. Who do we call. What what's it going to cost. We've solved that for you so instead of just selling selling selling we're solving solving solving so the more problems we solve for you the more chance you're going to. [00:18:00] Very interesting. [00:18:01] What are some other examples that you can give me. [00:18:07] Well I've just had one situation where if this hasn't been the market for this was the most recent. That's why I'm bringing it up for nearly a year with three other agents. They call this obvious now if one of our marketing pieces I went out and the house was vacant carpet in the master was wavy. I've just paid a carpet stretcher to come in and stretch it. I carpet cleaners to clean it. The patio was extended. Very nice big but it was all stained. I had a handyman coming in power watch it had a crew come in and clean the house because it was bacon. Kind of you know you start to see bugs and cock and other agents have had this home on the market in this condition. We sold in sixteen days. So basically what we're doing is stepping in that owner's out of town. You know how hard it is to coordinate that type of thing. You know it's done and make sure they're paid. We took care of all that. We paid all we coordinated them. We scheduled them to put the house in condition to show. I mean to sell destiny. [00:19:10] So if you and so if you take all the things you do in terms of marketing what you know some people running Facebook ads and some people running getting you know they're there doing email blast and all kinds of things. When you say marketing are you talking about all these things are you talking about something down this channel or that includes all those postcards and mailings. [00:19:37] I still believe very strongly in mailings and in a lot of my income comes from maintenance. I've just got a mailing. This is I don't know if you only take the time and all that but literally a couple months ago from a little company that made me feel like mailings work because Google sent me a postcard. Wow that's very hard trying to get me to use Google AdWords. [00:20:03] A lot of people send in postcards I think and they work they they must I know we send a lot of postcards and they do work so well let's shift gears a little bit and I want to talk about balance in your life because one of the things that when you and I had first started talking you were sharing and this is a first in 2012 2013. You spent a lot of time with your family as a realtor and and a lot of there's a lot of struggle especially you know everyone straight commission and fighting for the next deal. And so the idea of being available almost like 24/7. Yeah. We'll ask an agent know hey how is your weekend they look at me and go what's a weekend. Okay talk to me in terms about how you bring balance to your life as a real estate agent. [00:20:53] That's that's a great question. It truly is a challenge for most people in this business. It's a matter of fact a friend of my son was getting into real estate or is getting into real estate and he asked if I'd have lunch with them and they were interviewing. And just having lunch with a few top agents around our market and they asked me. OK so tell us about your schedule and you know weekends and evenings and I said well at work we can tell you said really. So what about your phone you always interested. Well if I'm with my family I do not answer my phone because I want my family and my kids to know you're more important than anything else that's going on here. Now my family understands I'm in the real estate business. So even when we're on vacation I'll set a time of the day when I return calls. But if we're out and they said you know what. We just talked to another agent she said she was in Paris France not Texas. Well I'll be with her family. She got a call. She took it. He goes I'm in real estate I take my call. I just feel differently about it. So I do not as quick work on Sundays. Many many many years ago when my first son was born I quit work in 30 days and let my wife have a whole day off and spend it with him and we took that through both sons and it it's just it's just too important. Guess what. I've never lost any business that I know of because I've put my family as a priority. [00:22:21] Wow. [00:22:22] So there are two things running through my mind on this one is what's the motivation to be that determined that deliberate. And number two the other thing running through my mind is the risk because you know you're potentially losing business. So help me understand those two things that makes sense. [00:22:45] It does. And I'm going to be kind of straightforward and blunt place. I believe that there are two words to start with that that are really really important and one is fear and one's faith. And I have faith that my father in heaven is going to provide. And I don't fear that I'm not going to get business because my faith overrides that fear and I'm not. Believe me I'm not always successful that because fear can certainly creep in. But this is a business where if you don't depend on faith it's going to be a much more difficult road to hoe. So I've always depended on the fact that my father's been blessed us our family and that if I go about doing my business in a way that I believe is is pleasing to him then we're not going to have to have that fear. [00:23:38] That makes a lot of sense. We we do a lot that sells on our own as you know. [00:23:44] Talk to me a little bit more than about your faith and really kind of how it drives your business or maybe how how your faith drives you in your business. Does that make you kind of talk a bit more on that. [00:23:57] No I would say it's the real estate business is it is a challenging one. And I really preach to my agents that you know faith is is really really important as far as pay if you do what you're supposed to do. You can't be afraid that you're going to fail at it. So that that step by step faith over fear is something that we're always working on. [00:24:23] But the way we handle our business is is not I know this going to sound trite but it's not money driven. Do I have financial goals. Absolutely. Do I have financial obligations. Absolutely. [00:24:38] But I've got a song on my wall over here that says the more you serve others the more successful you will be. [00:24:47] And I just believe that in my heart. So we treat each situation in a unique way that has to do with that client. And we don't ever. My team and I for example we collect money we contribute our own money to make house payments for people in need. You know a lot of people you know hit a time in their lives when they need a helping hand. And we don't. We've had many people want to help give publicity to us for that. And we've always refused. That's just a part of something we feel like we should do. So as a teen we call it our house payment program. Once a lot to have someone asked me to come do some training. What. What do you charge. And I'll say it was instead of me charging a fee you in your office contribute to our house payment program. [00:25:40] Now give a little pitch about what it is and tell me about some of the people that we've helped. We helped a fireman a year before last who had a devastating accident and couldn't work for some time. And yes he had some some income come in from you know disability and all that but it didn't really cover all their bills so we helped make their house. We had a family grandparents who lost their children in a car wreck and took in their five grandchildren. And you talk about financial struggles. We've stepped in and helped them make house payments. So those are the kind of things that we we feel like or part of what we need to be doing. As you know it's part of our business. [00:26:25] That's really neat. [00:26:26] You know the whole idea of trusting in giving is it resonates really with me a lot because you know our business over the years we've been in business for 20 to two years I think it is now and we've seen some highs and we've seen some lows and even in the lows I advised it out. I'll tell you this story because this is years back so I can't take really any credit but we at that time we gave a real high percentage of of every profit every dollar we made whatever I took out and whatever the company made is profit. And every month we would give it into ministry and we had this client that was 70 percent of our volume and about one hundred and some odd percent of our profits and they were scheduled to leave about three four months from now. It was a term contract. And so we kept giving and you know storing nothing up. Now it's talking to a friend of mine who's a another Christian businessman and his name is building said Betty I believe in trusting God but I've never put myself in a position where I had to. And but you know this whole this whole lifestyle of you taking the day off or doing these things you know helping other people out and just really trusting your fate to your faith in the Lord. [00:27:57] I just think it's it's it's it's freeing isn't it it makes all the difference it makes doing this business of pleasure it really does. And not being tied to that commission is is everything. And I may have shared this one with you I had a client you know I've had this happen several times over the years but one I think I shared with you I had a client that the Commission on their house was just shot fourteen thousand dollars like thirteen thousand nine hundred. And they were in having some difficult financial struggles. And when we got to the closing after their escrow because yes we should know the pay off and they told me what the payoff was and when it got to it they did not share with me that they were behind payments. [00:28:45] So after paying off their loan that was thirteen hundred and twenty seven dollars left. Now they have paid my commission they have had to come out of pocket twelve thousand plus I didn't have it so I said we're fine. No I'm not depending on this commission you know to make my house payment and I believe that you guys can go in close I believe that you should have this burden lifted from you and in the you know if I can ever help you again I'm I'm here to help and I can tell you a lot of people would think that you twelve grand you can I didn't give up twelve grand I didn't have twelve grand I helped somebody in a situation and I came out you know thirteen but to hit thirteen hundred dollars hit you know and they still for referred me business to this day so that's just the way I approach each of those commissions it's it's not money driven it's people and again am I. [00:29:52] Do I fall short of that. [00:29:53] Of course I do but it's nice to step back in and I pray every single day that God will put people in my path that I can serve on his behalf do you do anything else with your faith in how you engage with clients on an ongoing basis I know like when we bought our house you know our realtor really super lady loves the Lord and so you know we're at the kitchen table of the house that we now own and filling out the the offer and so she said hey let's just pray over this I'm thinking you know what a great way to do it how do you do you live it out in any way like that strategically it's not great with many clients over the years and I do have it I call it my pre listening package which has enough every single cell in it has a a page in it that basically espouses my faith and lets them know that we depend on God for all of our blessings and we put him first and that's in every marketing package that we send that I love that so you don't you obviously don't subscribe to the idea that he has your faith here and you have your work here and they need to be separated right. I'm not sure that's possible I don't think it is. One last question just saw as we're on this topic and there you may not have anything or you may not have anything that you care to share but you know a lot of times as a realtor or even just as a husband and a father you go through struggles and and there are times when you just have to. You fall on your knees and the Lord just really carries you through is there anything that stands out that you would like to share in terms of the impact of your relationship with Christ as you go through struggles absolutely no question that he has brought us through many difficult times. [00:32:01] I still remember many years ago when we were in danger of not being able to make our house payments. This was before we had kids. Not to say that it's been a cakewalk since and because it hadn't but I still remember Rebecca and I and I bless her. She is the most incredible prayer warrior. I still remember sitting at a table approaching midnight praying about whether we should get out and try to find no less smaller house and find a way to move bills aside and find a way to find a way to do all that. So as we as we prayed through that and continued to over time we just felt we knew what what what he wanted. And so we continued on the path that we were on in and we're just blessed with you know the relief of that art. I still remember back then going you know what. I don't know anybody that does this much business with real estate but I'm truly. Again it's not one of those. Oh well if you believe in God and Carville he'll bless you and give you a lot of money that's not what it was at all we were willing we went look at smaller houses and we went and looked at different ways to lower our last home. [00:33:23] We weren't leaving an exciting lifestyle by any means but we just hit. Been in some tough roll snake markets when interest rate 10 percent. I've been I've been in three crashes over my career but we just felt truly comfortable that we should you know stay on the path that we were on. So we did he blessed us. My business flourished in a time when you would never expect it in. A couple of years after that we had kids and just moved on down that line. But one of the best things that I remember is I asked my kids questions all Thompson. Come on. But I said if you were to say one thing about your mom and your dad that you remembered us for what would that be. And I shared what I remember my parents for in the thing that I I'm really just overwhelmingly touched by. [00:34:17] Is one of my sensitive you said you know you have an incredible work ethic but you do it for a reason and that reason is your family and God. [00:34:33] If that's the way he remembers me you know I'll be very happy. [00:34:38] What a legacy. What a legacy on that. [00:34:42] That's great. You know our children. They pick up more from what we do than what we say. Yeah. Let's talk on one more thing if you don't mind. [00:34:54] You've been married for how long thirty three years. [00:34:57] Thirty three years. And if I'm approaching an area let me know and we can edit this part out but I want to talk in terms of a marriage that's founded on Christ. And can you talk anything on that. You know how's your relationship and and what do you consider kind of the core reasons for the relationship being as it is wow you aren't getting big. [00:35:26] You know it's it's incredibly comforting to know that my wife's faith is is so strong in that she doesn't necessarily depend on me for her happiness and gratification. She depends on our Lord and in the same way with me. We we both know that our marriage is is. I mean it's wonderful. Now have we had some tough time yet. Absolutely I don't. Yes I really know of anybody money. But the bottom line is is we both know that supporting each other based on and our prayer is always that the decisions we make will be in our mortgage will and that's the decision we make for our kids. That's the decisions we make business decisions we make for each other and her faithfulness over the years it's just been an inspiration to me. [00:36:27] You know I I I stepped in here without really having much knowledge but I felt I was safe in that direction because I'm similar. [00:36:37] We're married a lot fewer years where I'm coming on our 26 anniversary on. But what's really interesting is our love for each other is so much stronger today than it was years back. There's never been a time we haven't been in love but it's gotten a lot stronger Yelp experience. [00:36:56] Absolutely. Absolutely no question about it. It does matter fact. We have been talking about that recently. You know we're empty nesters and you know wow I was afraid how it's going to come up with me. You know when the kids are gone. But we we've just grown closer and stronger as the years go by. [00:37:13] You know one of the things that someone taught me years back he said kind of a triangle put God at the top. [00:37:19] And then the two lines coming down is the husband and wife and as each husband and wife seeks and they get closer and closer together. So that's kind of what I attribute. And I have to tell you an interesting story. One of the members in our separate club that church is a he's a pastor. He came from pastoring his own church and now being an assistant pastor in our church and in his area of ministry as a pastor. A lot of challenges relating to divorce and moving into divorce. Now he's asking in this quiet house because I'm using this concept and I'm saying has there ever been a time that you recall anyone going through the process of divorce or considering divorce where one or both of those people had been consistently seeking the Lord and he said no he cannot recall and that I think has been the about bedrock for our relationship as I would imagine for years. [00:38:26] Very good. That's that's a good one thank you. [00:38:30] Well we kind of probably need to wrap up a little bit is there and we start on a real marketing side and excited now we're kind of mellow down and talking to about really the most important things in life. But is there anything that's been on your mind or anything you've thought about that you'd like to share before we wrap up anything that on any topic or anything. This is your chance to shine. [00:38:55] Well I can tell you that the more people like you that I'm able to work with who have a faith in a belief like mine the Better Business is. So being able to talk openly with you in I know I don't know how much people watching us know about you but if they've never heard you teach scripture you're an amazing teacher but they might have friends. My broker people on my team and people involved in my business be able to pray together vehicle to encourage each other to be able to you know share in challenges and in victories and give that glory to God rather than to ourselves. We understand that. I mean the guy that I've told you about just had a breakthrough with an incredible couple months and then couldn't himself or any of he feels and knows that it's it's a blessing. And he put in the work and God bless him with the results in total surround yourself with people that that really makes the real estate business very different and a more enjoyable career than if if you're not. [00:40:17] Yes it does. [00:40:18] And to work with people like you like mine makes my work all the more meaning that frequently I go you know what's the purpose of it. You know it's just money right now. Is there any eternal purpose and the Lord keeps reminding me. Yes but you need to be a full time minister secretly disguised as a business owner and you do a great job of that. Well I don't know. He's been spiking me a little bit saying you haven't done it the way I've asked you to. So we're working on that. Well Stuart I've really enjoyed visiting with you and thank you for sharing your time. And for those who are listening or watching if you like this please Subscribe or like us and they come back as we interview more people. So Stuart and have a great day and be blessed. [00:41:10] Thank you. You too. [/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

Want to know how to start a successful college ambassador program to help grow your downloads for your app? Well I've got CMO of XMode, Jake Ellenburg, to share how they used a college ambassador program to grow downloads for their first company, Drunk Mode, to over 1 million downloads. Watch Video on YouTube and Subscribe to our Channel: https://youtu.be/48JH1c-cX48

Do you have disturbing thoughts about your own death? Or horrific daydreams where you play out different scenarios involving your own death, or that of your loved ones? I think of it as the "elephant in the room" when we’re talking about spirituality and our souls. We’re probably all having these thoughts a lot more than we’re talking about them … You Might Die Tomorrow is Kate Manser's life’s work dedicated to helping you live urgently, love openly, and enjoy your life — by thinking about your death. It’s about an inspiration to live today. GUEST LINKS - KATE MANSER www.youmightdietomorrow.com Deathbed Meditation You Might Die Tomorrow Facebook Group MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Heather Alice Shea HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Kate: Yeah, I was just like everybody else. I didn't really think about death very much, other than thinking that I was totally invincible all throughout high school, doing a lot of dangerous things. But at the time, what precipitated my shift, from going from not thinking about death to embracing death, which is where I am today, was a period of intense death anxiety. I don't know if you've ever been there, Slade, but I was just consumed by death anxiety. At the time, I was in a marriage that was very unhappy and I was just in decision paralysis agony, didn't know what to do, and then I had three people die around my same age in unrelated tragedies in a span of six months. So that just sent me into a tailspin oh, Ohmygod, I could die at any moment. I need to be scared all the time. Slade: Mmm... So tell me, what are some of the components of death anxiety? What are the thoughts and the voices that you're hearing? What are they saying? Kate: It was like there was a movie in my head all the time of a really gory, not fun movie happening where like, if I was driving into an intersection, for example, which you do, we do all the time. I would just have this quick snap vision of a Mack truck coming and taking me out as I went through the intersection. And then it would just continue. That movie would continue and I would think, oh, what would happen? The paramedics would come, then my family would have to be notified. All down just this dark tunnel of mortality. And then the same thing would apply for other people in my life. I would imagine getting the call that my mom had died unexpectedly. And I think the phone was kind of a trigger for me because I had gotten a couple of these unexpected calls when three of my friends died. I had that negative association. And so I was just afraid of death all the time. It was just this mysterious unknown thing that I couldn't control but put all my energy into trying to. Slade: Okay, so it was much more visceral violence, suspensful gory movie kind of stuff for you. It wasn't even more the existential stuff. It was actual... Well I've heard before that that's kind of a PTSD thing? To, in the moment, be struck with flashes of anxious violence. I mean, anything can cause you to have PTSD. You could have it around the trauma of those phone calls. You know what I'm saying? The ones that had happened in the past and that was some kind of lingering energy that was getting triggered. Kate: Oh yeah. And it was the gory moment of death, for sure, but it was also.. My mind was very preoccupied with all the things that would happen after the death occurred. Because that's what's unknown. We don't know if we're going to be like the stoic, you know, if we lose someone in our life that we really care about, are we going to be the stoic survivor or are we going to be like crumbled under the circumstances? So I would have trouble sleeping at night because I would imagine the whole scenario. What would happen if my husband had died unexpectedly, and calling his family and going to Brazil to have a funeral there and all of the things that would happen. It got to the point that, I had always been someone who was like, pretty much a lover of life, but during this period, which lasted about a year and half, I was putting all my energy into death anxiety and it had completely clouded the beauty of life. Slade: Okay, so I have to tell you. There was this synchronicity involved with our meeting. The day before I was introduced to your site, a woman had posted in our Facebook Shift Your Spirits community asking if anyone else had obsessive thoughts about death. Kate: Wow... Slade: And she was really quick to say that, it wasn't really negative, it wasn't violent. She wasn't contemplating suicide or anything like that. She was just kind of putting it out there that she thought really often about death. But more from an existential place. That's why I was surprised that you were talking about these kind of violent scenarios, the actual death itself. She was kind of talking more from a place of like, being really profoundly aware, like this clock ticking and having this limited amount of time on earth and she just put it out there and said, you know, that she was thinking about it in a contemplative way. She found it odd that more people didn't talk about it, right? It's like this elephant in the room, especially in a community like ours where we're talking about spirits and communication from those who've passed. That kind of stuff. She was asking if anyone wanted to chime in and say how they felt about it. And it was weird because it was one of those posts where a lot of people were liking it or responding to it without commenting. So I said, "Yeah, I really do think those thoughts actually, and I wasn't sure what to say though in support of that other than... I feel you. Kate: Yeah. Slade: And then the very day, there you were with your message and I thought, okay, this is obviously a conversation that I need to have for everyone who was probably seeing that post and thinking, I don't even know what to do with this. So help me reframe this in a positive light. How did you get to a place where you could embrace your death? Kate: So believe it or not, it was another tragic and unexpected death of someone around me, same age, so it was like the fourth. A year and a half had passed since that six months where I had three in a row. I believe it was, yeah, about a year and a half went by and then a friend and coworker of mine at Google, Dan Freedenburg, was climbing Mount Everest and he died in the Nepal earthquake, in an avalanche, when he was up at base camp. Man, I was so angry initially when I heard that he died, because he was a really vibrant, adventurous, goofy, very intelligent person, and very well liked among Google and his friends. He dated a celebrity and what my first reaction was, was just anger. That he had taken part in an elective sport, really, and took his life in his own hands and ultimately it was his choice to climb Mount Everest. That ultimately took him out of this world, away from all of us. I was so mad at him at first. But then as I thought more about it, I realized that climbing Mount Everest is something that you don't just like do on a random Saturday. It's something that requires a ton of mindful energy. It's very expensive. You have to train really hard for it and it's a choice that you make over a long period of time. I realized that he was a very smart and vibrant person and he had put a lot of thought into climbing Mount Everest. He accepted the risk that came with that because, as I looked back on his decision, I came upon this realization that he HAD to climb Mount Everest in order to truly live. That if he had stayed on the ground, he also would have died in a way as well, because he would have been living out of his system of values and not living his authentic life. That was when I suddenly saw death in a new perspective, which was that I have no control over when I die. Dan had no control over when he died and he decided to live vibrantly and take calculated risk. I could die climbing Mount Everest if I ever did that, which I probably wouldn't. I could die in that intersection that I was so afraid of going through all the time. Or, I'm a very clumsy person! I could probably die climbing the stairs, and I'm putting so much of my precious energy into worrying about death when I could be putting that energy into living while I'm still alive. That was really the main turning point for me, was just like, hey, I could die tomorrow and whereas when I was with the death anxiety, that was the most terrifying thought. Suddenly, a light had been shown on it and I was like, oh! I could die tomorrow! And that's the most freeing concept I've ever experienced. Slade: So that's interesting. The fact that we could make that a freeing concept. So how do you recommend, as we're listening, we're all probably now really feeling the anxiety about it. So how do we manage that? Kate: Yeah. I'm actually doing some research right now for this for the last chapter that I'm working on for my book. Like, psychologically we manage our fear of death. I believe that fear of death is... And many, many scientists and psychologists believe that fear of death is like the one universal fear that all humans share. We're not all afraid of snakes but we're all afraid of death. The research shows that the best way to manage our fear of death is two things: Number one. To live life in accordance with our values, which then bolsters our self-esteem. And number two, to invite mortality awareness into your consciousness, as opposed to keeping it on the fringes, because I'd be very curious to talk to the woman who posted in your Facebook group what her contemplation has been and the arc of that. Because, I know I can say for myself that the more I invite death into my life, the more I think about it and meditate on it, the better I feel and the more vibrant I live while I'm still alive. Slade: So how do you think we can use this sense of our mortality to empower us? To help us make decisions about what we're doing in our lives? Kate: Man, in death, everything seems to just fall away and become clear. Death is this... There's something about it. There's something about the finality of it that we have so much going on in our lives that when we look at it from the perspective of death or the end of our life, we realize how little of it really matters to us. That's what I've found is the best way to help me make decisions in life is, I actually do this thing that I call the Deathbed Gut Check, which is that when i'm faced with a decision that I'm having trouble making, I don't know what to do. I get decision paralysis with the best of them and I'm frozen and trying to figure out what the heck I want to do with my life. I do the Death Bed Gut Check, which is, I will close my eyes and imagine myself on my deathbed. I'm on my deathbed and I'm looking at the present moment or the tough decision that I'm trying to make, I'm looking BACK at it from the perspective of being about to die. I am given a sense of clarity and I imagine myself thinking, like, ok, I'm on my deathbed, how do I feel having done Option A. I observe the visceral reaction in my body. Do I feel a lightness of being, or do I feel a pit at the bottom of my stomach? I do the same thing for Option B. Because it's so loud in our lives, with all this stuff that swirls around, and it's difficult to focus on... get that perspective of what matters. I use that sense of mortality to get perspective and help me make decisions in life. And that five second Deathbed Gut Check has helped me make some really, really important decisions and also really simple ones. And it's something that, death is accessible to all of us and it's a tool that is radically underused. Slade: I have to share with you that several months ago, I was working with a healer around some creativity blocks and I was really struggling with the book that I was working on. Part of my struggle was that I had another book that I really wanted to be writing instead, and I had this HUGE sense of guilt about abandoning one to work on the other, and abandoning all that work and etcetera etcetera. I was just angst thinking about it, as authors do. You know, just ridiculously blown up into this existential crisis. The woman I was sharing all this with came back to me with just a really simple question: If you had only enough time to live and produce one of these books, which one is it? Kate: Wow. Slade: And it was INSTANTLY... Kate: gasp It was! Slade: You know what I mean? The answer was like, Oh. Kate: Lightning bolt. Slade: Yeah! It was like, so just flashed through your body. Like, all the thinking and worrying and pros and cons list just fell away. Kate: Yes! Slade: Yeah, so I will now call it the Deathbed Gut Check. Kate: Yeaaaah. Slade: It's a great way to think about it. Well, so you also have something called the Deathbed Meditation. Tell us about that. Kate: The Deathbed Meditation actually came from the Deathbed Gut Check, because I had observed these positive effects of imagining myself on my deathbed and helping me make decisions in life that... I became curious about the deeper effects of meditating on mortality. So I started googling around and I learned a lot about how pervasive death-awareness is, particularly in the Buddhist religion. But I couldn't find an actual meditation similar to what that Deathbed Gut Check is, from the perspective of our deathbed, looking back over our lives, and so I wrote one. I've been facilitating it now for I think two and a half years and it's of course morphed over that time but it's essentially a guided meditation that's anywhere between 20 and 30 minutes. That's appropriate for novice and experienced meditators alike, in which I safely guide you to imagine yourself on your deathbed, wherever that is for you. It's different for everybody. It could be your grandparents' house. It could be a shack on the beach. It could be, one guy actually, for him, his safe place, where his deathbed was, where he imagined it in this meditation, was a place that he had been on in a psychedelic trip and he said, "I never thought I'd be able to get back there and the meditation took me there." So from the perspective of your deathbed, wherever that is, we go through and we look over your life. You growing up. We look at the decisions that you made in the time that you had. What you did do, what you didn't do. And we observe, again, those visceral feelings that come out. But again, it's without judgement because at the end of your life, there's nothing you can do. But then at the end of the meditation, we close with a call to act, because unlike on your deathbed, at the end of this meditation, you DO have more time. And with that, we have seen some really beautiful personal transformations occur. Slade: What kind of feedback do you get from the people who are doing this meditation? What are their takeaways? Kate: Oh, so many amazing things and I have to tell you, when I first started doing, even when I first started, with the whole concept of, you might die tomorrow, and the Deathbed Meditation, it had radically shifted my life for the better. I'm telling you, I made changes in my life. I quit my job. I went travelling for a couple of years. Like, those things are awesome, but it was really the daily impact that mortality awareness had in my life, that just made me want to share it with the world. But there were incidences where I was like, oh, this is talking about death. There are some people or some instances in which people may not accept it with open arms, and it will be hard. And the two incidences that I thought were, one, people who were actually dying. People with terminal illness or the elderly or people who deal with death every day in their lives, like doctors for example. I was like, oh, I don't want to talk about you might die tomorrow with them because it's so real for them and I think it's inappropriate. It turns out, over time, that those people, and particularly those with terminal illness, are the OG fans of you-might-die-tomorrow. And what I realize is like, unlike the rest of us, they can't push death under the rug. So from there, I gained a new sense of confidence in my message for everyone. And then regarding the Deathbed meditation, just recently I, when I was doing workshops and things, I wasn't always including it. But when I got the call from Facebook a couple of months ago and they wanted me to perform, or facilitate, the Deathbed meditation at their corporate office here in Austen, that was when I knew that this is a message that I should not be afraid of. This is a message that people want to hear. And some of the transformations I've seen are people who, like, one woman is a scientist and she was working testing soils for the government. She left her job and is now pursuing her dream to become a nutritionist. There are a lot of people who packed up their things and are now travelling in various parts of the world as a result of the meditation. But really, what I hope is that, these big changes are fantastic in living life in accordance with what's meaningful to you. It is fantastic. But it's the little ways that death can positively impact your life, which is what I hope people take away from the Deathbed Meditation. Just loving more vibrantly, living more urgently, and making it a priority to enjoy our time while we're still here. Slade: So, this may be a little bit obvious question. It may just be a continuation of what you're just saying. But what do you hope that you can contribute to our collective understanding into the greater conversation about spirituality and our experience being human. What do you hope your legacy is? Kate: Mmm... my legacy. I hope that people can embrace their death. That is my message. But really, at the end of the day, I found that you might die tomorrow and thinking about my death is a means to an end. Thinking about my death has positively impacted my life. But what I want people to take away at the end of the day is to live in accordance with your values and I have no idea why we're really here. We're like, what is that saying? We're meat sacks gravitationally stuck to a rock spinning in a galaxy greater than our comprehension. We don't know why we're here. And so, to prioritize enjoyment in life, I think that's what I really would want people to take away, is just have fun. And you have no idea, just enjoying your life, how far that ripple effect will go to that which you don't even understand. Slade: It occurs to me that I should probably ask you, what are your feelings about the concepts of life after death, of the spirit surviving this lifetime? There's no right or wrong answer. I'm just curious what your personal feeling is about all that. Kate: I'm actually weirdly a fan of conspiracy theories. And I definitely don't think the afterlife and spirituality is a conspiracy theory but I say that because one of the things that I'm grateful for in my life is that I believe anything is possible until it's proven otherwise. And I really like the idea of, in our consciousness, living on in spirituality. So I believe in the possibility of the afterlife. I absolutely believe in spirituality and if you look into the experiences of people who have actually had near death experiences, one of the key things, the key aspects that many of these experiences share is an understanding of the Oneness of humanity and shared consciousness, and the idea that our lives do go on. And again, I think that death is the greatest teacher, and if that's what they see and it brings me comfort, then I'd absolutely believe in it. What was your experience of mortality awareness? Slade: You know, I think mine is more of the existential stuff, and part of what I contemplate a lot, because I am surrounded by a community of people. Here's the weird thing - my brand is all about bringing spirituality down to earth. Like fewer hearts and flowers is my tagline... Kate: Yeah. Slade: Yeah, yeah. So what that really means is it doesn't do anything for me if I can't apply it to my actual life. If spirituality and personal development go hand in hand, for me, and all this great new age vocabulary and tools and concepts only really, where's rubber hit the road kind of thing. So I'm always looking for that for myself, and that's sort of what I share and put out into the world. Like, okay, well it's great that you can talk to your spirit guides. What can we do with that, you know? Kate: Yeah. Slade: But it's interesting because I still attract an audience that is much more woo woo than I am. Sometimes I look at the conversations going on in my own Facebook community and I'm like, man these people are out there! And I love it! I love it because I don't... I'm not there to debunk anything. And like you said, you know, if there's something that I don't really, if I can't disprove it... My favourite quote is actually from Marilyn Monroe. She was being interviewed by someone for a newspaper article and she made an offhand remark about somebody's astrological sign and the reporter said, "Do you believe in that?" And she, with this totally like, Duh, look on her face, was like, "I believe in everything a little bit." So I kind of have that feeling. Like, I believe in everything a little bit. So one of the things that I notice in my own deathbed meditative contemplations is, I have a lot of friends who are mediums who spend... their entire jobs and career and purpose revolves around the concept of speaking to people who have passed away. And I'm not a medium. All mediums are psychic but not all psychics are mediums. Kate: Yeah. Slade: And I don't specifically have that experience. So I have a big "Huh... okay, that's interesting." So what I find my contemplations being is, I'm led down all of these super phenomenal paranormal conversations with people all the time. I'm inundated with the concept that, you know, our souls are infinite and all that kind of stuff. And I can visit people here, talk to them after I'm gone. And then I'll have these moments where I am like, wait a minute, that's what everybody else thinks. And I'll reel it all the way back in and think, what do I really think about that? And I have this concept that I've only spoken about with a few people. I actually did... Remember when I said sometimes my conversations with new people are more interesting than any other? I spoke with this woman named Heather Alice Shea once on the show and we were set up through a mutual friend. "You guys should do an episode!" She and I talked for 50 minutes before we started the interview and it was all around an offhand comment that I had made about the fact that sometimes I think about being an atheist. And I test out my beliefs in terms of like, can I still be a psychic and be an atheist? Can I still explain some of this phenomenon without having to believe in a higher power or like a bearded man in the sky kind of thing. So I have this whole concept of spiritual atheism that I play with. She and I just went down this rabbit hole about that, right? Again, it's not about debunking anything or disproving anything, but is there this place that you can be comfortable in where you don't know? Kate: Mmm... the ambiguity. Slade: Yeah! Are you okay with the thought that, you know, this could happen or something else could happen? I could be totally surprised. It could all be over and I wouldn't even know, you know? So those are the kinds of things that I think about. I don't know if that answers your question, but... Kate: Yeah, that's beautiful. I mean, that really hits on what helped me is getting comfortable with that ambiguity and mindfully channelling my energy elsewhere. It's like, oh, I don't have control over when or how I die. But I have 100% control over how I live until that time comes. Slade: Yes. Kate: And I love that spiritual atheism. I met a guy who now has a retreat in Thailand and man, he's very passionate about his concept of spiritual atheism. Slade: Really! Kate: Oh yeah, yeah. I should connect you guys. Slade: Yeah! Who is it? Kate: His name is Pierre. He is American but he studied Zen Buddhism for many years in Japan and how has a retreat in Thailand. He's just very outspoken about this idea that you CAN separate them. You can separate the woo woo from the spirituality. And that you can make it whatever you want. And very specifically about the spiritual atheism. Slade: I have this fantasy. Like, you know you have your play out the - ooo what if this happened, kind of thing. And this is the comment that I made that Heather picked up on. I did an episode once about how I fantasize about just one day becoming a born again atheist. Kate: Wow. Slade: And announcing to everyone, I've worked my way through the list and I've found a way that I can philosophically justify all of this. For myself. Who would be okay with that? Who would stick around? Because I don't... I actually think that we can have all of this stuff. I think there's a lot of biological explanations that will exist in the future understanding. I believe that a lot of the things that we experience as psychic phenomenon is literally just a part of our biology and the miracle of our brain. And it doesn't mean that it's not happening. It just means that we're just equipped to do it in mortal form. You know what I mean? Kate: Wow. Slade: I think that there's a lot of science that could explain some of the phenomenon that we experience. That's not a psychic prediction necessarily. It's just this thing that I contemplate a lot, which is, can we have all of this? And is it okay if you choose to populate your spirituality with supernatural concepts? Because I kind of think, at the end of the day, people who have faith, even if it's a different faith system, I have found, are more open in general. They're more compassionate, they're more likely to believe other people's beliefs. They're more likely to leave other people alone to be whatever they want to be. They are less likely to need to convert everyone to their way of thinking. You see it in elderly people in particular, who really talk in purely fundamentalist Christian vocabulary. But their philosophy and their vibe and their true wisdom is super open minded and extremely liberal. I kind of feel like there is a place. There is a happy spot. I think that maybe it's what your message is about. That there's a place where we can exist in uncertainty. And because of the uncertainty, be motivated to make it all amazing now. Because what good is it, again, if it's not useful to us right now, what good is it if I'm gonna be able to contact my loved ones after I'm dead? That's great, but what kind of impact can that have on people's experiences here and now in the moment? Can we do something practical? Can we be okay with the concept that what some people talk about is spiritual entities to a more clinical, intellectual mindset? We can talk about the archetypes as kind of psychological programming that all our brains kind of carry, like apps on our phone or whatever. Kate: Yeah. Slade: So I like to contemplate the place where all those things end up in a big chaotic mash and I think at the end of the day, it's a little bit of a choice. And as long as the choice is life and happiness and I'm gonna get off my ass and DO something, then I'm cool with whatever you want to bring. Kate: Yeah. Wow, you had a very insightful observation there about people who have a sense of spirituality being more open and accepting. There's actually scientific, or psychological basis for this. It's the research that I'm doing now is basically like, it really all comes down to security. And if you have a sense of security, which religion very often provides, you have the space to be more open. Because you don't feel threatened. Whether it is Christian fundamentalism or whatever the belief in, that everything's going to be okay, that you're part of a group and things are stable. That bolsters self-esteem. But one of the things that I argue in my book is that spirituality is amazing. And I absolutely believe that people should do whatever makes them feel good. I think you can also create your own personal religion of what is meaningful to you. Whether whatever you're practising religion is, you can kind of personal religion of, okay, these are the things that are important to me. And I'm going to actually live in accordance with those, and then that, therefore, provides that security that allows people to be open and... Man, that was a beautiful observation. Slade: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me about this today. Tell everyone where they can go to find you online to explore this more. Kate: Yeah! Come hang out with me. My website is www.YouMightDieTomorrow.com. Pretty easy to remember. And I am finishing up my book now. It's going to hopefully be coming out this summer. And if you're interested in joining our community on Facebook, or inquiring about the experience of the Deathbed Meditation, I do those in person and online and groups and corporate workshops. I just love to hear about what your experiences are and what thinking about your death has done and impacted your life. Slade: That's wonderful, Kate. That's for coming on the show. Kate: Thank you, Slade.

Well it's that time of the year again...figuring out what you're going to do in the upcoming year. Well I've got a little technique that I've been using for a few years now that can really make things a whole lot easier for reaching business success in 2019. Check it out...

Jocelyne Leach calls herself a mystical midlife rebel. She's a personal and spiritual empowerment coach, mentor, and intuitive for women who want a joyful, vibrant second half of life. We’re talking about second acts and the opportunities present for us at middle age to finally do something meaningful with our lives. GUEST LINKS - JOCELYNE LEACH jocelynekelseyleach.com HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition FACEBOOK GROUP Shift Your Spirits Community BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Jocelyne: Okay, well it was about 10 years ago. Probably everyone can remember 10 years ago when the shit hit the fan in the financial markets and it just felt like the whole world collapsing. The news was just terrible. Every day was very depressing. At the time, my husband and I were... We had two businesses that were quite vulnerable to fluctuating markets, and one was a pub and restaurant. One was a property development business. And so, when the markets take a dive, people stop eating out and property takes a dive. The whole thing just imploded. So my husband was extremely stressed. He got taken to hospital seriously ill with three perforated ulcers. At the time, I was uncharacteristically stressed and unhappy and suffering as well. Usually I'm quite a grounded person. So for me to feel all these kind of... the emotional wrangling of all this going on. It made me think, I've gotta get to the doctor and get some medication to help me through this. And I thought, No, that's not the route I want to go. I need to sort this out myself. So I started two things. One thing you might not know about me is I'm also a yoga teacher. So I really dug back into my yoga practice that had got a little bit kind of wishy washy. I dug back into that and took up a more powerful type of yoga. That helped a great deal. It really gave me something to focus on that took the thoughts out of my head because it was the thoughts that were just driving me crazy. And then, at that time, about 10 years ago, the internet was really starting to take off. And so, the wonderful thing of search engines were I could just keep finding different people on the internet who would give me words of wisdom that started me moving forward and kind of climbing out of my big black hole. It's things like finding Byron Katie and reading her books and beginning to kind of control my mindshit, basically. And that was how I started to kind of turn my ship around, basically. And I think at the same time, I was also having a bit of a mid-life crisis. I was kind of late-40s and just wondering what my life had all been about, because I had always been involved with the family business in one form or another. And I've never really pushed out on my own and done anything that I felt was my particular career, so to speak. So it just started that journey. And yoga, really, was the catalyst that got me into more and more kind of spiritual and metaphysical stuff. When I first started yoga, it was just a physical practice. I wasn't into any mumbo jumbo at all. It was kind of a physical practice so I wasn't interested in anything like chanting or meditation or anything like that. But when the need arose, I needed to get into that place of being calmer and finding tools for my mind. So that's really how it all evolved. Slade: That's interesting. I did not know that you were a yoga teacher. I have a pretty special place in my heart as well for yoga. I sort of feel like it was the thing that allowed me to... It's funny, I... Like what you just said. It started as a physical practice for you and then the mumbo jumbo came later. I started out with the mumbo jumbo, and when I went looking for something to physically heal me, I had had a surgery which cut into my core muscles and I was a smoker for 20 years. So at that time, I was recovering from surgery and smoking, and I thought, Ugh, this is disgusting, to be doing these two things at the same time. So I started to think, What is the representation of the breath in healing form? What is a replacement behaviour for smoking? And I really quickly landed on yoga, as being the kind of intersection of all that stuff. And I thought, Yay! I went to yoga as this mystic already! And it was funny because I really quickly was drawn into more of power yoga and as I built up that core strength and became more and more physically strong, and of course I did quit smoking and did yoga instead of smoking, I became extremely physically empowered and alive in my own body in a way that I'd never experienced. Jocelyne: Yeah. Yeah. Slade: Never experienced. We're talking, like, I was 41 when that happened, so... It ultimately led me to all the fitness that I do now, because I was like, Ah, I do the mumbo jumbo stuff in my day job. I want to lift weights and be a crossfit cult member, so I went that route. One of the things that I have noticed is, a lot of people who are yoga instructors may go into it as a physical practice, as a job, and somewhere along the way, they start to discover that they can read energy, that they are intuitive, then they start to pick up a lot of stuff especially if they're touching clients sometimes. Did any of that happen to you? Jocelyne: Yeah. Exactly how it happened. Like I said, I was more into the physical side of it, but I began to notice that, and I think I've always had this attribute, of being able to read people's energy. And I think it goes right back to childhood. I don't know why, but that was just always how I felt that I could understand people. I could look at them and I could kind of guess what was going on. And I began to notice that when people are in my class, I could figure out what was going on for them. And I began to notice that people were quite interested, in fact, they really demanded that I would make the classes in a way that they could tap into their own energy. It was the beginning of class where I used to, when it was quite a physical practice for me, I didn't really have a run in into class. We'd do maybe a couple of breaths just to show willing. And then I'd go straight into the physical practice. And then I began to see that people more and more wanted me to take them into more of a breathing sequence and to decompress them from their day. So the start of my class where we just do a couple minutes of breathing began to be 10 or 15 minutes of breathing. At first I thought, Oh, I don't know if I should be doing this. I don't think people will like it. But more and more, I found that was part of the reason they were coming. And so it went from there. And then I began to really see the difference that it was making to people and I began to put my foot into the other aspects. The more ethereal aspects of yoga. And it was quite a journey. Learning the history of yoga and realizing there are things that, what you might call the new age community had adopted, like working with chakras and visualizations and stuff like that. They were all things that had been part of yoga practice for thousands of years. And that's what led me into studying other things like astrology and hand reading and the akashic records. Because all of those also belong to vedic studies. So it's quite fascinating how that all unfolded for me. Slade: Do you still, I'm just curious if you still work with astrology at all. Jocelyne: Yeah, I do. Some of the most powerful readings I've ever had in astrology have been vedic astrology readings. I haven't been studying vedic astrology. But I have been studying western astrology and when I work with people now, I just always take their birth dates so I at least know what sign they are. Because that gives me a lot of information. Because a lot of my work is about energy, whether it's physical, mental, emotional, what have you. And things like astrology help you cut through a lot of chit chat. It gets you to the heart of the matter more quickly. Slade: Yeah. The reason I ask about that is because astrology is emerging as a theme in all my interviews right now. There are at least three people on this season who are specifically astrologers. But then when you mentioned that, I felt like I needed to ask, because this is a theme and I have been sort of reinvigorated around using that in my practice. I actually used to use, like, someone's natal chart was almost like a meditation or a gateway image for me to do readings, so I come from having done astrological charts for extra money when I was a teenager, when I was in college, for my parents' friends and some people in my family. Stuff like that. And so, I've always asked for that information for a client because if I know their sun, moon and rising sign, I can talk for an hour about what that tells me about them, you know? Jocelyne: Yeah. Slade: At that point, all the intuitive stuff comes in as well. I used to think, maybe I'm just kind of using this as a crutch. Maybe I'm just sort of using that as my way to log in, as we say. But then with all of you that I'm having these conversations with, I had sort of just backed away from including that on my intake forms. Now I'm rethinking, Oh wait a minute, I feel like my Guides and the Universe is all telling me, No, no. There's more to do with that. Keep that in place. It's a very useful vocabulary. Jocelyne: I think so. It goes along with another thing I do, which is to do with yoga. Which is ayurvedic medicine, which is kind of the Indian version of traditional chinese medicine. I do a, not with every client, but with some of my clients, I'll give them a kind of questionnaire thing that they complete, which also gives me their dosha, which is a physical representation of energy, so it goes into elemental energy like in astrology. For example, if I use me as an example, I'm a Gemini so I've got a lot of mental air energy. But physically, I've got a lot of earth energy. So it gives me a great understanding of someone if I know what their physical energy type is along with their mental energy type. So if I'm helping someone in more of a wellness way, which was my previous iteration in coaching. I was a lot more focused on wellness and health because that kind of went with the yoga. And then I started building the more mystical and intuitive skills now, so I'm veering more in that direction. It gave me a really good picture of that person quite quickly and I'm all for something that kind of cuts through stuff and you can get to the heart of the matter much more quickly. The same goes with the hand analysis. I learned how to do hand analysis and the energy shows up in the lines and the fingerprints in the hands as well. So all those things kind of tie in. Slade: Wow, so if you have a client there in person with you, do you usually read their hand as well? Jocelyne: I do do in person hand reading things. They're usually mini sessions. I'm lucky enough to teach my yoga classes, the majority of them, at a local spa that opened a few years ago. I offer a kind of 45-minute mini session. So I do that in person. But if I'm seeing someone long distance, then I like to send them a kit so they can print their hand prints for me. They send them back and I look at the printed version of their handprints. And in honesty, I prefer doing that. Because number one, it gives me a bit more time to just kind of mull over what I'm seeing. And secondly, with ink print, you get more fine detail. And quite often, I'm a bit distracted if I've got a person physically in that space, all expectant-like. I get stage fright a bit. I quite like to be kind of tucked up in my office, and just kind of mulling and ruminating over the information I've got so that I can present it in a more cogent way. Slade: I didn't know that you could do that! That you could do prints with ink and send them to someone and that they can... I've never thought of that before! Jocelyne: Yeah. Slade: That's fascinating. Jocelyne: Yes, it is. It's much, much more fun. Slade: Well, it also allows you the time to create a more meaningful volume of information. Because I think there's a tendency, you know, like, it's weird to just let a stranger hold your hand for most people for a long amount of time. I can see where there would be some kind of, a little bit of almost like a social space pressure to not sit there and manhandle them for 15 or 20 minutes. So to be able to have that kind of intellectual distance and to study the information kind of outside of that whole issue of touching or being in someone's personal space. I find it easier to read for people that I cannot see, that I'm not physically in the same room with. I often describe it as being like, when you are listening to music and you want to concentrate, you close your eyes. It's like getting rid of a lot of the senses that you don't need in that moment, so that you can sort of put all your focus on that intuitive channel, essentially. Jocelyne: Yeah, I think that's exactly it. I don't appreciate the distraction because I'm easily distracted anyway, so if I see an expression or something that... It can put me into my headspace, and I don't really want to be there. I want to be more into my intuitive space. The other thing I find especially with hand analysis, if I'm there with the person, and it's kind of, Cross my palm with silver, dearie, that kind of vibe, where if I'm at more a distance, it seems more, whatever the word is... Slade: Elevated? Jocelyne: Yeah. The opposite of being at the end of the pier, or in a fairground. Slade: Right. It's more elevated. Jocelyne: Doing tricks. Slade: More highbrow. Jocelyne: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I come from a family where this is the kind of stuff that is not believed in. All my family think I'm a proper weirdo. And they're the kind of people where if you can see it, then you believe it. And I'm more, you see, actually, what you believe, and more in that intuitive space. They all look at me kind of a bit cock-eyed, as if a bit, Uh oh, What's she up to now? Slade: Well, every family needs one. Jocelyne: Well that's what I think. I'm letting my weird flag fly now and I don't mind. Slade: So talk to me a little bit about how your practices evolved. I imagine some of your yoga students become people who want personal sessions from you. Or that you kind of evolve the practice into doing more of the intuitive work and the coaching. Looking at your website, there's a focus around living a vibrant second half of life. Jocelyne: Yeah. Slade: You talked about the fact that your story, at one point sort of going through a midlife crisis. So talk to me about what this second half of life is about. Jocelyne: I think for women particularly, it's a kind of a point in life where women at a certain age, I don't want them to throw in the towel. I don't want them to think, Well I've got to a certain age, and I've got to start smalling things down now and contracting, kind of metaphorically speaking. What tends to happen is life kinda gets you when you're at mid-life. The thing that started me on my journey might not be typical for everyone, but it does and it can involve a certain amount of loss. It can be loss of your partner through divorce or through death, or loss of your health or jobs, or your kids moving out of your home, all sorts of things like that. I see it with my friends and my clients. There are great pressures on women at this age. There's barely a woman I've come across that doesn't have something of this kind of challenge going on for them. For most women, it's kind of unexpected, or it's more challenging than they thought it would be at this time of life. It's an accumulation of everything that's kind of topped off by the cherry on the top, which is having the menopause. So it challenges them from every part of their being - physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. You name it. It feels like you're powerless and you're a bit stuck. And it's all downhill from here on. I don't think that should be necessary. Not in this day and age and also, 50 isn't how 50 was when my grandmother was 50. And I think if people, well women especially, if they feel empowered again, that's how their second half becomes magical and meaningful. And they can live joyfully and have a vibrant second half of life. So that's what my job I feel is. To guide them and coach them at this time. To see the other side of this kind of void. And have a clear and inspired plan for a much more empowered, brighter future. Slade: What kinds of things do you see these women going on to do, like what kind of breakthroughs do they arrive at? Do they start businesses? Create new projects? What kind of result, really, happens when they become more empowered? Jocelyne: Yeah, I have had clients and friends who have the catalyst for them having to do something in their life, is maybe the loss of their marriage. So they've had to really think, Well, you know, I've been a homemaker for 25 years. I've got to do something now. And they'll start a business. I have several friends that have started businesses at a time in life where you think, Wow, that's a bit plucky. But they haven't had the choice because they've been thrown into that situation. Or, you know, if a partner had become seriously ill, or they've become debilitated in some way, women have to step up maybe and start being more of a breadwinner. So that's definitely something that I've noticed in women of this age and sometimes it's just they're ready for a kind of an awakening themselves. They're ready to find more about the spiritual side of life, or about aspects of life they haven't had time to pursue before if they were busy doing other things. You know, the kids leave home, you might have downsized, you might have downsized work-wise. Something else is calling and it's kind of like a clarion call to remember that you probably got more years behind you than you have ahead of you, so what are you going to do with those valuable years that you've got left? Slade: And they're open in a new way, right? Jocelyne: Yeah. Slade: The good news is... Because I attract this type of client as well. Women who are finally at a point where their energy is not being required by everyone else at quite the same amount. So what they're finding is they're sort of welling up with all this self-awareness and this creativity, and these sort of blank slates, and this sort of open space. Now, some people probably panic and dig in and freak out about all that, and wanting it to stay the same, so to speak. But the clients that I attract in my practice are like, Okay, well wait a minute, I've got all this time and all this energy and I'm not done yet, so what am I going to do now? It's really exciting to me because I feel like it's almost a second act, on the kind of energy that you see with college students, you know? Jocelyne: Yeah. Slade: I was a student adviser at a university before I started doing this work, and I see a real connection between the mindset of someone who is 19 years old and trying to choose a major for their study and then women who are in midlife who are coming to me wanting to discuss reconnecting to their creativity, starting a passion project of their own, doing something that they've always wanted to do. Do you see that kind of energy that I'm talking about? Joceyne: Absolutely. I think it's that kind of Saturn return effect and the need, I see, for people not to stop being creative, you know? Keep being creative. No matter how modest your dreams are, you need a new dream. You need to redesign your garden or redecorate the house or whatever it is. But you've got to keep having something to get up for in the morning. Otherwise you just kind of wither and die. So for some people, it would be modest dreams. For some people, it's like, yeah! I'm gonna open an animal sanctuary. I've got the time, I've got the space. I can do that now. They might want to travel. They might want to really do charity work or something that is meaningful for them, that they haven't had a chance to do before. Or just reinvent themselves in some other way that is meaningful to them. So that they really do get a chance to do what they might not have done when they were younger. Slade: Women in midlife too, have decades of practice doing multiple things at once. They're multi-taskers just by requirement. Almost everyone who's a mom. I joke with the moderators of my Shift Your Spirits community, which you are one of our moderators, I jokingly said to you guys, I pick ladybosses and moms. Because you guys are used to kind of doing a whole lot of everything, and dealing with everyone's stuff, you know, to put it nicely. And you have a lot of practice at getting on with shit. You know what I mean? Jocelyne: Yes I do. Slade: I really like this type of client because they're not coming in with a lot of hand wringing. They come in with a lot of energy and are looking for some place to spend it. They want to be encouraged and enabled to pour themselves into something and to be encouraged. Bring it on! I love to brainstorm. And I love it when people bring me their animal sanctuary passion projects and they need some support and encouragement to make that happen. What do you hope personally to contribute to this greater world of coaching and empowerment. What's your message you'd like to leave out there? Jocelyne: I think my main message is, what happened for me 10 years ago is that I really found out about myself. I dug down deep enough so that I could understand myself better. And I think that's the key, is to really know and understand yourself fully. Because then you can tackle the things that are your life lessons, that are your repeating patterns, the things that have kind of kept tripping you up. That thing about, you always go out with the same guy, or you always keep doing the same things and you have the same triggers. If people could just experience what it is to know themselves better, then it's a very empowering feeling to suddenly think, Okay, actually If I scroll back a bit, when I first had my hand analysis reading done for myself before I trained to do it, I had several coaching sessions where the lady did the technique that I described to you earlier, and everything she said to me wasn't a huge surprise. It was all stuff that I kind of knew about myself already. But it gave me kind of confirmation about who I really was. So then when I knew who I really was, it was like, Well, there's no good in me worrying about the fact that I'm no good at maths. Why don't I just keep pursuing the things that are my gifts and turn my gifts into spectacular gifts. You know, something I can really do something with. Rather than just be sad there wondering, lacking confidence and being triggered by all the things that triggered me in the past. I think a lot of us are the kind of stuck when we were triggered as a 10 year old or 14 year old. And I think, as a society, if a 10 year old or 14 year old died, it's a tragedy. The whole wider community feels that loss. But how many people go to their grave still being triggered as they were when they were a 10 year old or a 14 year old? I think that's a tragedy. I think how awful, that you're really dying as a 10 year old. Slade: Mmm... I had a client just recently that I did a reading with who expressed that she had wanted to be a writer when she was much younger, and that when she was 14 years old, her mother just really shut her down around that whole connection to herself. And, you know, it died, like you said, a spiritual death. So here she was, at this stage in life that we're talking about, looking to reconnect to that. I hope she hears this episode and what you just said. Because I really feel that it spoke to the reading that we did. I think she's a fan of the show, so she's probably nodding along right now. And it affirms the message that I brought through for her as well. I want to mention and not forget, because I love this title so much, if everyone goes to your website, they can get a free download. The title is "7 ways to instantly get calm in the middle of a shitstorm!" Jocelyne: Yes. Slade: Tell us about that. Jocelyne: Yeah, I'm a little irreverent. I think if you join up to my list, you might need to know that. That's a 7 day email series. Each day someone is sent a tip about a different way to kind of get a grip on whatever is triggering you, basically. One particular day, there might be a visualization and a breathing technique to calm. There might be some physical things to do, like jumping jacks or something like that, to get out of your head and into your body. It might be a recipe with essential oils, something like that. It could be dietary tips or something a bit more practical. So it's just 7 days of different things that could help you feel as if you've got a grip. Slade: It sounds like a lot of people would be interested in checking that out. Jocelyne, thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. Tell us where we can go to find you online. Jocelyne: My website, it's a little long-winded, but it's http://www.jocelynekelseyleach.com/ I think you'll put that in the notes or... Slade: Yes, yes. Awesome. Wonderful. That was great, Jocelyne. Thank you for coming on the show! Jocelyne: That's my pleasure. Cheery bye for now!

Remember podcasts 291 & 292 where I opened up about the hardest year of my life and nearly going bankrupt? Well I've 100% turned it around, I'm in a good place again, I'm giving myself a high 5! But how did I do it, and what have the last 6 months been like after those 2 podcasts I did? And what does the future have in store for me? 

Katrina: Oh. Okay ... That's what I've gotta do ... Invite. Invite, invite, invite, invite ... Do that ... Okay. All right. How do I add you? I'm blind. I can't see anything. It says I can't bring you on the broadcast at this time ... Why? ... Invite friends ... Okay. That's odd. Do you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna restart this, because usually when I do this ... Oh no, hang on. Now it's letting me ... bring ... Katrina: Adding. Hello, everybody. Patrick: What's up? Katrina: What's up? Patrick: I don't know why I've got this thing hanging up here. A devil horn, demonic. What's up? I had to share in my group and on my wall so, rock and roll. Katrina: Okay. Let me turn this up. My sound is super quiet. Katrina: Welcome everybody. We have no idea what we're going to talk about but it's going to be amazing. Patrick: It is always gonna be amazing, always amazing stuff when me and you get on here. Always amazing stuff when you're here, I'm like, damn! Everything I watch I always send people to you and everybody I meet I'm like, "Dude you have not idea. Cat's shit ... it's changed my life more than just anything I've watched, anything I've listened to." Katrina: Thank you. Patrick: I believe in it. I believe in it though. Katrina: It goes both ways. I nearly tagged you in as my favourite live streamer apart from myself. I think you're the only person whose livestream I consistently watch, I'm very sorry to everybody else who's on here who livestream but I'm just going to admit that I'm not a huge content consumer, I have four or five people whose content I'll consistently consume but you're my favourite live streamer. Patrick: Wow, wow. Katrina: There you go. Patrick: Well I'm honoured to hear that and you know what? Are you still in Baldi? Katrina: No, it just looks like I'm in the jungle. Guess where I am? Patrick: Yeah. Katrina: I'm actually at my local shopping mall. I'm a mall rat, I work from the mall. This is just a cool little area. Whoa, shit. I just did my workout. I just got my sweat on, the gym's right there and I just hang out at the mall all day. Patrick: Let me close this door for just a second before it gets too loud. Katrina: Oh where are our comments? Who's saying hello to us? I just realised we're ignoring you guys and we're only talking to ourselves. I haven't said hello to anybody yet. Patrick: Yeah, Ryan in the house. What's up Ryan, what's up Sage, Cody ... Katrina: Hey everybody. I'm dropping all my shit. Brandon you must have not only see first notifications but you must have some kind of alarm that goes off in your house 'cause you're always instantly there supporting and representing. Patrick: He does. I guarantee he does. He's ready to roll too as well. Katrina: He's always ready to go. Patrick: I have some good news as well today, again. I sold my second programme today. Number two. Katrina: Of course you did. Congratulations. That's a virtual hug. Patrick: Yeah, virtual hug. Get that out the way quickly. Katrina: There's one for everybody as well. Hugs all around. Hey Mandy, Hey Theo, hey everybody just in. That's awesome. You're just owning that energy space that you need to be in, right? Katrina: I saw something you said the other day. Oh, it was in the post that you did about your first sale and you said how you haven't done any funnels yet or any advertising yet or anything like that. It's all been mindset, you went all in on mindset which obviously is something that I was really excited to read. Patrick: Yeah I did and it's one of those things you know? It's something I just want to stick to 'cause I got all the other things down. I can do all the other things. I can do funnel. I already know that that's something easy. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: But I wanted to do my take, cause I know that's just a winner. I can help people out. Much more so with that, it's a bigger fundamental change they can make in their life. Anybody can run Facebook Ads. You can get on YouTube and learn how to build a funnel. Doesn't matter. Build your shit with work press and work with word press everyday, no problem. Katrina: So [crosstalk 00:05:24]. Me? Patrick: What's that? Katrina: Did you say I know nothing about funnels? Patrick: Well I mean ... when I talk to you, you don't really concern yourself with funnels, I like that. It's such a fad type deal. Katrina: I do. I run a programme for my community of funnels cause I was like I know everyone wants to know about it. And yes there are some things we could say about it, but largely my team taught the programme for me. And I just came on like a rock star and did the mind set side of funnels. Cause even when I talk about what should be in a funnel. What I talked about was creating the experience. When people come in to your community. Think about the first seven days and what is the experience you want people to have being apart of your community. You don't want them to fee like they joined another email list. Yay. It should be like, holy shit, what is this bad ass community? Katrina: What's up John? What's up Linda? Linda. Hello. Patrick: Who can you be apart of? Which can segway into my community and what we're talking about today ... cause mine is ... obviously yours is, yours is daily kick ass read for fucken leaders, but you have mostly women. By the way, the person who bought the programme today is a woman. I think she's one of your tribe actually. Katrina: Oh cool. Patrick: Yeah it'd be kind of wild to see how it plays out. But my view is Entrepreneurs Player Club. So it's for men. It's a men's community for men who wanted it all. Who want to take it to the next level no matter what it is in life. They wanna level all the way up. And so it's ... that's the experience I'm providing. You know what I mean? Katrina: Yeah. Patrick: Both have that aspect. So talking relationships I'm sure y'all do that. They were talking about relationships. They were asking about men and women communications on your streams? Katrina: It's ... not on the live stream more on the client groups and then friendships conversations as well. In fact, Linda and I were talking about this last night. Linda's one of my besties on the live stream, she's staying at my house at the moment, she might even be at my house right now. And we were talking about it and we were having some laughs about a few things ... just common thins women do that should be made into viral videos. Ways that women analyse and obsess things that men say, for example. So we were cracking up laughing at things we know we do that are really silly. Katrina: But yet, we still feel like it's a real true thing. But I have this conversation with clients all the time. Not ... I'm gonna say it doesn't happen ... Linda is my wife this week. I already had two marriage offers this week, no this is the third one. Callie Remy's offered to marry me, she's always offering to marry me. She gets very upset when she thinks that anybody else might get in there. Now Linda's offered as well ... it's fine ... I'm fine with what's the word? Polyamory. Katrina: I don't think the relationship conversation happen as much in the daily asking crew as they might. Because it is men and women in there.- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: So maybe people don't put themselves out there quit as much. But it happens more in my inner circle client group. We do a weekly hot seat masterminds live stream. So for all my private clients, and I would say ... 30 to 40 percent of the conversation is to do with relationships. Then also on my private clients box me everyday and they just audio update me with their questions or what's going on. Probably 30 to 40 percent what my clients ask me about is their relationship stuff. And only 30 percent is business and the rest is whatever to do with labs. Katrina: So, I noticed how when you talk about Entrepreneur Club, you say it's for male entrepreneurs but you say it's about up levelling in every are of life. How relationship all of that. And that's definitely what I feel like I do with my clients as well. That they are all entrepreneurs of some kind. They're coming wanting to up level their business, make more money. But it's actually about creating your whole life purposely. So that's where a lot of the conversations come from. Katrina: But I thought it would be a good topic because I'm not ... firstly I find it a little bit funny that my clients continually ask me for relationship advice cause I'm not an expert on this. Like I can read your ... if they tell me something they said or did or this happened with a guy and what do you think? I'm like ... I'm still learning and growing in this area as well as all areas ... but probably this area more than others I would say, at the moment. So it's not like I'm a certified expert. But, here's my thoughts so here's my feelings. But then when I try and give clients supportive feedback ... and same when I have conversations with friends about something that's happened with a guy in their life. I'm like but I don't really know the male perspective. I only know certain things that I've learned and studied. Katrina: You and I were talking about this last week on the phone. About how I've spent a lot of time over the last year or year and a half trying to understand male/female dynamics. And learning and up levelling in that, so I feel like I understand so much more than I would have 18 months ago. But still I'm like I don't know. I keep forgetting ... and this is what I wanted to talk about with you ... I keep forgetting that men don't think like women do right? Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: There's a certain way that women think and that we approach things. And rules of behaviour that are just automatic for women. And I think that we as women, are prayed in the same way. So then if a man doesn't communicate in a way that we would, we instantly assume they're upset at us or they're annoyed at us, or that they're not interested or whatever it might be. Instead of just being like, men think this way in this situation and women think this way. Does that make any sense? Patrick: Yeah for sure. It's a communication thing. It's like, I know several people that are trying to figure this out. One of the main things is people wanna know is how they communicate better across the genders ... male and female ... try to figure that out and crack the code. I know a guy who's working on it. It's actually his life goal is to figure this out and he thinks that whenever he has figured this out, he'll have solved it and be rich beyond his wildest dreams. Patrick: Everybody, I think, is actively trying to figure it out. I hear this sometimes in my group. I asked the group to find out what they're looking for and what they want in the next ... what they want ... need frame or value on for the next thing that I drop. Patrick: They do quite frequently ask about relationship issues, it's like all across the board. But what I've figured out is that it is always a communication issue. On the aspect is, they always have a communication issue or problem. And so, what I've actually learned recently and through training ... cause I actually looked in to this stuff ... and I've always been trying to figure this out better. It hasn't been always at the top of the list of what I wanted to do. Like I was more concerned about business and opportunities. Patrick: Now later I'm trying to learn more about this. So the best thing that I've learned to do. And I've learned that works the best ... this is so cliché ... but it's just so fucken simple right? It's just being 100 percent honest about every fucekn thing. Like no matter what people just fear rejection.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That's one of the most basic things, humans don't want to deal with. They don't want to deal with rejection. So they're going to put a mask on, they're going to alter the things that they say and change the things they say. And not be generally honest person. But I think it works out ... this thing is shaking like crazy ... you gave me this thing, I don't know what the hell is going wrong with it.- Katrina: The tri-pod. Sometimes of gets loose and the top and you've got to tighten that little wheel. Patrick: Yeah, how the hell do you tighten the wheel? Oh there we go. Katrina: You hold the other and then you move just the wheel bit. Patrick: There it goes. Katrina: That took me like six months to master. It used to drive me insane. Patrick: It was just bobbing around. Katrina: Hello. Patrick: Hey there we go. Being 100 percent honest, so cliché, but its what people don't fucken do. Katrina: But what if we just said what we think right? What if every time we communicated what I'm actually thinking or feeling, and maybe it is actually scary sometimes to say that or confront it. Okay. Fricken take a deep breathe and give yourself a slap on the cheek and say it anyway. Because it's never gonna serve you to hide your truth. Not in this era, not gonna serve you in this obviously. Patrick: By you saying this, and what you do and what you talk about in every other business and aspect is the key. So should come to you with relationship advice, they should come to your with communication advice. This is the thing that works the best. Katrina: Okay. Can everybody just note that Patrick said I'm an expert on relationship and now I'm gonna do a course on it. You heard it here. Patrick: There you go. You've been dubbed. Katrina: Of course I'm going the to do a course on it at some point. There's gonna be a course on everything. Your ideas of ... you said the things they want most from you is relationship stuff. It's funny cause I asked that same question yesterday in my group. And the thing that most people said they either want me to talk about backwards ageing or about sex. But then when they gave more detail about what they want about sex. I was like okay I'm not gonna do a tantra course or something. I thought they meant sex, the act of having sex. They meant the sexual energy and manifestation I think through sexual energy is what they meant. So a little bit different but still related. Patrick: Yeah they are. I'd like to get in to see what you have to say about that as well too. You know just now getting into that male to female energy. Because males ... A especially ones that are good at communicating with women. They have a certain amount of female energy. It's a yin and a yang. Katrina: Of course.- Patrick: They have that inside of them. That's me to a certain degree. A lot more male ... a lot more on the male side. But when people notice I have this, they have more female in them. They can communicate better that way. And- Katrina: Were they accessing it? Because they already have the male, they already have the feminine in you. It's whether you're allowing it through or accessing it. Patrick: Right, exactly. So another thing I've also learned as well ... everybody's got problems right? I've got a problem too about myself but, I've got a forward free attitude about things. I'm not scared to die. So some people who communicate better with women, better across the sexes. Some men who do this, are men who are concerned with security. For example, men who don't like to fly or put themselves in positions where they could potentially die. They understand security and that is more attractive to women. And that allows them to communicate better with women. Katrina: Why is that more attractive to women? Explain that. Patrick: Because women are more interested in security, for the most part. I know you're gonna say, "Well I have my own philosophy."- Katrina: Is that your impression of ... Katrina: No, no, no. Was that Katrina right then? Cause it was appalling. It was worse than when you did the accent. Which was a British. Patrick: I was gonna say, I saw the look in your eyes. Katrina: No, no. Calm down. I was confused. If you think back to when we were on the phone last week, I know that I directly said to you was women want to feel stability and security but that has to do with ... to me that has to do with full authenticity with what each person wants and knowing where you stand and knowing what the other persons true desires and hopes are. You know? And what their boundaries or standards are, right? Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: I feel stable and secure ... as best as you can know what somebody else is thinking ... but if I know what that persons really thinking and wanting. As opposed to marriage doesn't give security, living together doesn't give security, all these things that people think, when I get that in my relationship then I'm safe, then I'm secure. Then I'm set up. Well I've certainly learned that those things are, that's smoke and mirrors. Katrina: I'm not saying you shouldn't have those things if you want those things, but that is not where security or stability is found in a relationship. And there can't be any security or stability if there's not honesty, right? Patrick: Absolutely. Katrina: And real honesty because I feel like most couples out there would say that they're honest with each other. But it's like to a point maybe. Because there's certain areas that are just taboo or consider acceptable. Or if my partner knew that I thought that, or wanted to do that then they would reject me. So it comes back to what you said before, that fear of rejection. Which is just fear of not being accepted for who you are. Patrick: Yeah, exactly.- Katrina: I was confused when you said about the thing about dying, that confused me. Patrick: Well I was pulling something up. I had a conversation and I was talking about this too and it was more of an attraction thing to have ... I do believe the sexes are different on a DNA level, they're different. Patrick: There's things that you guys find attractive about us that are totally fucking different ... totally fucking different than what we find attractive about y'all. You know? And what draws us to you and what we have to maintain. We have to maintain certain things with women to keep a relationship going. If we start acting a certain way, your DNA is gonna tell you, you gotta get the fuck rid of us. If we start changing our behaviour? Katrina: Like what? Patrick: Well for example if we went from attracting you with being more of an alpha male and we got into the relationship we start being more of a beta male. We started letting ourself go, becoming a fat fuck. And not maintaining that same energy and vibe. We weren't congruent with who you're originally interested in. And we started changing our habits and letting things go. Not only would you see not attracted, you would feel a certain thing inside you that I gotta get rid of this mother fucker or just tear him down to get him out of my life. Or a lot of women ...- Katrina: You wouldn't feel safe. If I was in that situation I would feel emotionally unsafe. I would feel like this guys can't decide if he's going right or left in his life, and on a fundamental ... I think you might need to turn your lighting on ... your in the dark. On a fundamental level, from a survival point of view ... some women might be angry at me for saying this but women want men to protect them and take care of them.- Patrick: That's right. Katrina: On some level if come guy can't decide where he's going in the course of this day, then how the fuck is he gonna take care of me or protect me or have my back. That's what I would feel. Even if I didn't assess that in my conscious mind. On a subconscious level that's what I would be feeling. Then you'd feel unsettled, you'd feel destabilised. Then that would turn to resentment and anger at the guy because it would feel like what the fuck I thought that you were there for and I could depend upon you emotionally, if not in other ways. Then all of the sudden the floor just fell out from under me. So at first I'm gonna feel scared and I'm gonna feel upset. And then if it doesn't correct I'm gonna get angry. And then I think men ... women start to get angry and they turn hard and they turn into bitches and they activate their masculine. Katrina: Then if you add to the fact that right now we're largely speaking to of audience of women who are driven, successful women or are already in their masculine in business. So then if you've got a relationship if the man's not being a man and not leading. Then the woman is gonna be so far in her masculine, which is gonna result in all sorts of whacked up shit, weight gain, angry bitch syndrome, or whatever you wanna call it. Katrina: And it becomes this vicious cycle where the guys not becoming more and more in his power and the women is feeling like she's gotta be in the power and be in charge. But she doesn't want to do that ... maybe some women say they want to be the boos in the relationship ... not the women I know though ... I know women are out there who are like fuck men, but I feel like those women don't feel that at their core. It's just how they've learned to protect themselves.- Patrick: Yeah. Katrina: I know for me and my clients, we're all very driven, high achieving women ... but we talk about this all the time so I'm speaking from my heart ... we want the man to be the man. We want the man to lead, we don't wanna be in charge in the relationship. But if the guy ... like you said ... if the guys not being in his power and not being a leader and not being a "man", then the woman's gonna feel in order to feel safe and for survival reasons she gonna be like, I've gotta fricken run this game. And then be angry at you for not doing it. Patrick: Exactly. And that's the communication thing that we're talking about. People need to know this ... like you have a great beat on this thing ... but most people are like what are you saying the DNA has nothing to do with it. It is, it's very much genetic survival level shot right here. Katrina: For sure.- Patrick: Doesn't matter if you're a woman or not. You're still gonna feel the same thing. If a dudes acting like this, you're still gonna have problems.- Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: You might not know where it's coming from. But if you trace it back to this, that's where it's coming from. It's coming from cave man shit. Cave man days.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: If he's starting to act out like that and you're starting to have problems and you're wondering where these communication issues are coming from. You can trace it back to this. Katrina: On a level were still cave women and cave men and our hormonal systems and our nervous systems operate the same way. And even if a women doesn't have children, psychological, hormonally, and from the nervous system she's wired to want to protect her young. Even if she doesn't have any kids, so that will come up as well, right? Even if it's a relationship with no kids, if the guys starts not being a guy, the women's gonna be worried about that for her own sake but there's also wiring in there hormonally that's like, shit you can't protect my babies, even if they don't exist.- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: So that brings up even more anger and hormonal responses. So it's just ... I feel grateful that I understand this from when I was in the fitness industry for years. Cause for eight years I actively studies hormonal patterns and advanced hormonal science, it wasn't just physical training that I did. So I get it all from that. So I've learned it all from business as well as my own relationships previously ending. And then watching so many clients end up in broken marriages or broken relationships. And then just looking at these patterns and it's like strong women need and actually want strong men, right? Katrina: They don't wanna be the one who's acting like the men in the relationship. Patrick: But they also need better men too. Because this is the thing ... all that stuff is true and you've got all the underlying communication going on right here. You've got the ... now we understand we've got to be this type of dude. I've gotta make sure I maintain that as well. But I've also gotta be an honest dude. I have to be congruent and say exactly what the fuck is on my mind. Exactly what the fuck is going on. Cause all this other bullshit, this hiding thinking I'm just gonna leave or whatever. That's not what a man does. A man doesn't have a problem with that. A man's not worried if she leaves her or not. That's not how she should be. It should be all of free, she should be free to do what she wants to do. If she wants to leave she can leave. Patrick: But if she wants to be with you she should stick with you. All that stuff should be lined out and laid out honestly, from the get go. From the ... if you lay it out and have a clear map of what's going on. Otherwise you're gonna have these hairline issues, but your whole shits gonna be based on this milky murky service.- Katrina: It's not stable. Patrick: It's gonna be very unstable, yeah. That's why the one key that opens everything up ... and there's never really a problem when you're honest. If you already built something based on fucking lies and stuff already and it's got so far, then you're probably gonna have a problem. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: People are probably are married and shits already set up like this. So in that aspect ...- Katrina: They didn't just set it at the start. Patrick: Huh? Katrina: Yeah, you're right. They didn't discuss it at the start. And I ... that's a hard one cause I'm no longer in the relationship that wasn't working, right? But imagine that you're in a relationship and you loved that person ... and I know quite a few people who are in this situation, right? They're in a really fucked up, toxic relationship. They're both being assholes. They're both hating on each other. The male/female dynamics are all screwed up. But what if they're still in love. What if they still love each and they want to make it work. Katrina: Well then it's like anything ... it's like if someone ends up 50 pounds overweight ... if I remember one time I helped a client lose it would have been near 100 pounds. She went from being chronically obese to being a fitness bikini model, winning world titles, unbelievable, fucking amazing. But it took 18 months ... it was even a bit more than that. And in that time, she really fricken showed up, every single day. She did what I said to do, she gave her all to it, she completely changed her life. She wasn't just like, I want to lose weight so I'll go to the gym three days a week. She committed to her health and fitness 100 percent. And she ended with a result that is so rare for someone to go from being chronically obese to a bikini fitness model ... and by the way she was 44 as well when we did this. It was phenomenal. And to this day I think she's one of the most impressive things I've seen. Katrina: And I think it's the same thing. If somebody's in a really toxic relationship but they do love that person, they wanna stay with that person. Well both can change but you'd really have to fucken be committed to that. It's not gonna happen if you go to a therapy session every weeks. Or if you do a date. Everyone's like we do date. Okay, I'm sure going to the movies once a week is gonna fix all your problems. Katrina: What about ... how many people are communicating and actually being brave enough to share what they're really thinking. That's what it would take. I'm not an expert on it, I have done that, turning a relationship around like that. And I believe fully that of course it can be done. But it would require both parties to be committed and it would require that all in attitude, like my client had when she lost all that weight. Katrina: There was something I was gonna say there. Patrick: Well that ... look what Brandon said, he's actually saying something, he's not trolling today ... he says being able to express emotions is not from a place of weakness. That's good too. Patrick: If you're doing the date night and stuff life that. You're on that and everything trying to make it work. But the guy has to be vulnerable with still maintaining all the other shit that we're talking right? All the other vibes the alpha vibes and things like that.- Katrina: Still being a man.- Patrick: All that same stuff. Free too. I don't give a fuck. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, but I'm gonna continue to be social, I'm gonna go out and do what I do and have a good time. And whatever still be that way, no matter how mad you get, that's still going to happen. Patrick: But also vulnerable. Saying how you really feel about it. I don't want you to fucken leave. I don't want you to go anywhere. You're a huge part of my life and I don't want you to leave or do anything like that. To say something like that but still maintaining the other stuff, that is not said. That you just do, the behaviour that you have.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That's the way to keep it going the right way. So you're maintaining on the subconscious level but also with being vulnerable to a point. You still have to have that female come out.- Katrina: Well that's huge for women for sure. I know I've heard this so many times in different relationships in my life. And I hear this a lot through client and friend conversations too. I think men will tend to assume that we already know how you feel. And they'll be like she knows I feel this way about her. She knows that I don't want her to go or she knows I love her. But you know what? We want you to say it, a lot. That's just what women want. Katrina: And this is exactly something I wanted to ask you. I was gonna get your opinion on this. My female friends for example ... my best friends, so like Linda who was on the live earlier ... Kelly, whoever my friends are. We communicate with each other every single day ... I don't know if all women do this but my friends and I do pretty much daily ... we'll update each other pretty much about everything that's going on in our days. Almost like, it's a form of journaling. I'll be driving and walking and I'll be sending audio messages to my friends. All my friends, this happened and then I thought this, and then I'm analysing my shit or giving them feedback on this maybe. Katrina: But then it's kind of like a continual communication there. Even if one of us is doing an event or really busy with something, there might be less communication but we still check in. And women check in with each other all the time. We have a continual communication. My point is that we do that even if there's nothing to talk about. Where what I've observed with men, it seems to be like, there'll be communication there is there's something to say or if there's something specific to discuss. Or if you end up talking to someone then you end up talking and communicating. But men don't do the check in communication thing.- Patrick: Yes.- Katrina: And I think women kind of want that ... well we do want that. And then when men don't stay in contact we feel like like maybe they're annoyed at us or they've forgotten about us or they're not really into us or something like that. Because we wouldn't do that. We always communicate with other women. But we expect to communicate with men and then I think it's like where's the line. I know when I was journaling last year, what's my ideal relationship I remember specifically writing down, I don't wanna feel like we have to check in with each other everyday. Like I don't want to feel like you've got to check in with me each day, I also don't wanna feel like I've gotta report back on my fucking actions or something like that. Katrina: But then I want that communication. So what's your take on that, what do men feel about communication, if there's nothing really to communicate about. Communication for the sake of communication. Patrick: That's definitely 100 percent. It just depends on the guy and how he communicates. The more he sends you messages the better, cause that's sign of good communication. He understand that a women wants to hear that. That y'all want to hear that. That you need back ... not even like check in ... but I understand like saying what's up? Just to let you know you're on my mind. That type of stuff.- Katrina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.- Patrick: If the dude doesn't do that very well then he's not communicating very well at all. I can understand how people get that way, especially entrepreneurs. Because they get so busy ... especially with social media, the computer age, your so inundated with information and your so inundated with things going and your life gets so busy that you skip past that sometimes. Patrick: Or your just constantly ... we're constantly in from of the phone talking to tonnes of clients. It can get really hectic. That's the way it is in my life at least. That's the way that I'll find myself slipping up on my own communication. And not really doing the right thing on that end. Patrick: Any guy ... every guy needs to know that you should do that. Women need to hear that, that they need to feel that. That you have to have a constant string of communication like that. If you don't then you need to find a chick .. you haven't really found the one that's worth it for you. You need to find someone that's worth it for you to do that for. Patrick: If you've got somebody then you don't need to be with them. You need to go let them find somebody that will give them that. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Any guy that knows what he's doing will communicate every day. At least that's from my experience. Patrick: What do you think? Katrina: Yeah, for sure. For sure. But I think sometimes also men just don't know this. I think they legitimately ... this is what I've heard or read or figured out from observing ... sometimes I think men think, what I said before. You said men need to be vulnerable and say what they're thinking and feeling. And a lot of times men think, oh she already knows that I feel that. But it's like even if we know, we still want to hear it. Kind of repeatedly. Patrick: Yeah, yeah. Still say it even if you don't get a response from it. Keep on saying it. Keep on saying it. Just keep on going. Same thing with their life. Y'all can get busy too. Katrina: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Patrick: It's the same way though. That's where the miscommunication comes in. But do never stop telling a woman the stuff that you feel about them. Should never stop doing that. It should be consistent. Consistent thing. Patrick: As far as guys go, how we communicate. Me and my best friends we just send meme's back and forth I work with my friend. So we'll pick up the phone and talk business. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Calling ... people don't fucking call anymore, you gotta call. And talk too. Pick up the phone and call.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: Meaningful talking, tell them what's on your mind. Tell them how you feel, that's what all of this is all about feelings. All feels. Katrina: It goes both ways cause I know we get really scared to say what we're feeling, cause it's just that constant vulnerability. Fear of being exposed or fear of feeling that you've opened yourself up. Vulnerability that you might get rejected or hurt. So if men what to say what they're feeling more, women need to be brave enough to do that as well. And ultimately realise that if you tell a guy how you feel and you share your truth. And then that scares them away or they don't agree or don't like it or they don't align to it. Then that's fantastic then you figured out not to waste your time. Better to say what you really think and you really want and having a discussion about or feel like, nope that's never gonna happen, that doesn't move it for me, I don't like it, I don't align to that. Well maybe you got hurt or you feel hurt but actually you saved yourself a fuck load of effort and time, rather than dancing around hoping you can ... what? Trick some body into wanting to be with you or something? Patrick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You also got ... sorry I was just reading some of these comments ... but you also got ... fuck I was thinking of something ... fuck ... my brain, I just had an aneurism ...- Katrina: Just a minor little one. You look fine. You seemed to have survived. Marsha says you love the accent. I don't know if you means your accent or my accent. Patrick: What I was going to say is if the guy also has issues in the past ... as I do .. I have issues in the past, that I've been fucked over before, plenty of times. All you have to fucken do is say it. Very fucken simple. Just fucken tell the situation.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You've been fucked over. Who gives a fuck, the same way as there are as many clients in the world. There's as many women in the world. So why don't you just be honest, you're gonna run into somebody. Just be fucking honest, say what the fuck ... say what is really going on.- Katrina: Yeah, for sure.- Patrick: What think she's gonna tell her friends and you're never gonna get laid again? Don't be stupid, and turn away getting laid. Say what you really ... don't lead people down this death trap. If you've got issues, if you got shit you need to work out. Bring that shit up to the front. Let em know, boom what you get yourselves into, that way they know. That way from there it's so easy to be honest. ' Katrina: Right. Totally. Women appreciate that. I don't know if men wanna hear all that. Actually I wanna hear your answer to this cause I saw guy the other day say ... I can't remember where this was maybe a post on Facebook or something ... I saw a guy say, I don't wanna hear all your issues, I don't wanna hear your shit that happened with your ex or something. And I was kind of triggered by it when I saw this post. Katrina: Okay, I wouldn't want to be going on and on about my previous relationships all the time. But it does feel like to me it's relevant or important to talk about cause that's part of who I am in as a person and part of my growth that I'm currently doing ... for me personally for example ... is a lot of it is what I learned from previous relationships that I didn't want. Katrina: So to me it makes sense that I would speak about that to some degree, with the person who's in my life. I saw this guy put a post up like, you know, men don't wanna hear that, we don't want to hear your stories about what happened to you before or what your feeling. It was maybe kind of an asshole post but I was like, is that true? Cause women do ... we do actually wanna hear those stories. We really wanna hear where somebody's at and what they're thinking or feeling. Cause then it comes back to civility and we feel safe. Okay now I understand it. Patrick: Like if she's worth it. If she's worth it. Bad communication if she's worth it and you don't wanna hear her fucking past because that's all good shit right there. You want to know her demons are up, you want to know who her fucking enemies are because you want to go, her enemies are your fucking enemies, right? That's your job as a man. So you gotta ... this is all information you should wanna hear ... like I said, if she's worth it. If she's not then bounce down the road.- Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: But if she is, if she's worth it to you then that would be the lamest thing I ever heard. I bet she's probably not getting much ... like you said you were getting turned off ...- Katrina: Yeah I unfriended him.- Patrick: There you go.- Katrina: I only keep how bad people and I was like ... okay thank you for showing me who you are. But I was curious ... then I felt insecure by it ... because then I was thinking that I've shared things that have to do with my past relationships even with you and then I was like, shit is that an annoying thing to do. Should I not be doing that? Then I kind of questioned myself on it. And then I moved on. But I was curious if other men think that or this guy was just random dude on my newsfeed that somehow snuck.- Patrick: That's a random dude. You wanna know as a man who wants to be better man who wants his relationships to last, you should be more than interested, more than happy. And those people be like, oh my gosh I can't hear this. I know some dudes thinking this way. But fuck man you probably suck at communication. Look at your relationships. Look at what you got going on in your life. Look at the woman of your dreams, is she still there? Probably fucking not. Patrick: You should wanna hear that shit. You should want to listen to that and hear it. You wanna know what her crazy is. You wanna take her crazy. You wanna be able to handle ... just drop it on me. Drop all the bad, drop all the negative, bring it to me. I'll take it for you. We'll play these games together. Katrina: Yeah, yeah. Patrick: That's the best ...- Katrina: That's pretty cool. I think that's definitely what makes us feel safe. That's what we want. We want to feel that way, safe to express. And it's also because relationship are constant growth. There constantly giving you an opportunity to see your shit. Sometimes your shit comes up. I think the more a relationship is a soul alliance relationship the more that it actually can show you your shit and bring your shit to the surface, so sometimes it can feel a bit relentless or a bit fuck I don't wanna be faced with all my shit every fricken day. And it's kind of life with mentoring as well. With a solo mentoring, I know I'm such a mirror for my clients, that sometimes they don't want to hear it. They're like fuck off Kat. Get up, go away, I don't wanna be in that space. And it's well okay, they're gonna come back anyway cause this the growth that I know I need. Right?- Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: This is what I need to step into. And I think with a soul alliance relationship it's the same thing. The more that there's a true connection there the more it's actually for your growth for both of you. For your growth and healing so it may or may not last forever, whatever that is, but either way when there's that connection and that time together, you're both going to continually get confronted with your shit and then it's, okay, yes it feels uncomfortable or I feel scared or I feel triggered or now I'm feeling insecure. Katrina: So the two things I've really learned from that is, like what we've just been saying, tell the other person this is what I'm feeling. I'm feeling insecure, I'm feeling this. But secondly also look at, what can I learn from that? How can I grow from that? Because is that real and true or is this my reactive story. Maybe something happens and then it reminds you of a previous relationship, where that meant something bad or scary so then you automatically assume something bad or scary's gonna happen and you get into this reactive state and this reactive story rather than actually seeing for what it is. And being like ah ... like a huge one for girls is if they message a guy and then the guy doesn't reply, right? Or doesn't reply for a few days or whatever. Katrina: We'll go into a massive tail spin drama, like clearly he hates me now. He doesn't like me at all, he's not interested and then ... my friends and I were talking ... I think Linda and I were talking about this ... and it was like or maybe he just didn't reply and that's the whole end of the story and there's actually no additional meaning to it at all. And you just created all this stuff in your head. Like maybe you did this, maybe he wasn't checking messages, maybe he didn't feel like replying. But it doesn't have to be, oh my God it was this and this and this and this and this. Katrina: So for me when I notice myself having those reactions, like oh my God it means this this this and this and then I laugh at it. I'm like okay or it could mean nothing at all. I've got all my own stories and drama coming up so this is a great opportunity for me to process that, detoxify it and see where I'm living actively in, as opposed to casting in myself. Patrick: Yeah. But he could also say something to to fix that. Like if you don't hear from me, and say like an hour or two hours after you message me just hit me back, you've probably got lost in the sauce. Probably got lost in the mix. Katrina: Yeah, yeah.- Patrick: Something he could fix right there. Katrina: But without ...- Patrick: If you're a man.- Katrina: That's a good thing to say cause what women will think though. They would think that would make me look needy or insecure, if I followed up the message. Then he's gonna think I'm hassling him or I'm needy. So that's the female mindset. Patrick: Yeah.- Katrina: Right? Rather than being more ... go ahead.- Patrick: What's that? Patrick: Hello? Patrick: We got a bad connection? Katrina: No, I think I just cut you off. We're you still talking? Patrick: I was just saying if you say something like that, then that kind of opens ... that lets you do know that that's cool to do, you know? Katrina: Right. Yeah.- Patrick: It opens it up.- Katrina: Yeah. Alright I feel like we talked a lot about what women want from men but what do men want from women then? Patrick: Well, it's pretty basic. Obviously if your a deeper thinking guy you want good conversation, good company, hanging out. But then there's always sex, the basic needs, sex ... I mean just want to ... you have to have something you really want to go for. It's like a [inaudible 00:49:22]. It has to be something you're really trying to achieve. And this could something more than, it's something you're trying to get over yourself. Something you're trying to level up yourself. You definitely want somebody you can speak with, that you can communicate with and just share stuff back and forth with. A companion is what a good girlfriend is, you know? Patrick: That's pretty basic. Guys we don't really require that much. As long as those things are there that's fine. Also, and this just ... there's a lot of different flavours of what people are looking for out there. I can't tell a guy what he's looking for in a woman or anything like that, you know? But as far as my own wife. Being open, being honest, say what I wanna say and have somebody that's down with that ...- Katrina: Shit.- Patrick: Like I said, as long as I'm being honest then I don't have to worry about ...- Katrina: Oh my God.- Patrick: I don't have to worry about the other shit. That other persons gonna bounce off, that's gonna be my flavour. It's like the perfect client or the perfect customer.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: As long as I keep on being myself and keep on saying what's on my mind out here, then they're gonna come. Katrina: Be fully you.- Patrick: My right person. I can't speak for all men on what they're looking for, all I know is that I keep doing this. Keep saying what's on my mind then the right person or right people are gonna come into my life no matter what. That's not a problem. I just manifest that.- Katrina: Yeah. Katrina: [crosstalk 00:51:13] Katrina: It's the same as your friends, right? We don't worry about all this stuff in order to find any amazing friends that we've got in our lives. It didn't come about through some process surveying people, trying to be cool, trying to be whatever. You become friends with someone because it just happens somehow. Wherever you met them. There's a resonance there and you become best friends. And that's exactly how I've attracted all my friends. It just kind of happens. I just be who I am and they come along. It definitely had gotta be the same with relationship ... I think there's probably exceptions to this ... I think it can be super casual or whatever, doesn't really matter as much, it's just in the moment. Katrina: But for anyone who you're gonna see ... for me at least ... anyone that I'm gonna see more than a few times, I've gotta have that connection, I've gotta have that resonance there. Or I'm gonna get really bored. But it's just not, it doesn't feel like a good use of my time. It would kind of feel like I would try and be friends with somebody just because they were my neighbour or lived on my street. I'm sure we could get a long and have a conversation but I'm really gonna not do that unless I absolutely have to. Patrick: Yeah, exactly. Or just in a particular situation, you're out having fun or whatever and it's just something happens. That's natural. If you're a person who's congruent, people are gonna find that attractive about you. People are gonna find you attractive just cause you're a nice woman, you got nice hair and everything like that. So they're gonna find you attractive. I don't discount anybody out here having fun and doing all that. But for fun if you're talking about a soul connection and things like that, that just comes ... you feel that back and forth. It's just somebody who's easy for you to talk to.- Katrina: Right.- Patrick: It's so easy for you to pick up the phone and talk to them. Or so easy for you to text back and forth and speak to them and you can speak to them for a long time and you can speak to them for a long time, it's good conversation. If you don't have that and you've just got this shit pieced together because of the persons looks or you're feeling rejecting of that person to leave. If you don't have this back and forth then why the fuck ...- Katrina: There's no connection ...- Patrick: Go ...- Katrina: Right ...- Patrick: Just figure something else out, stope having a scared fish mentality about your life.- Katrina: Totally.- Patrick: You're scared this persons gonna leave. Or your scared this persons gonna think of you or whatever. And you just so forgetting that there's seven billion people on this planet. Katrina: Yeah. It should only be soulful. The friend thing again. There's plenty of friends that I've faded out over my life in the past five to ten years as I've become more and more who I am, I guess. In business and life. There's been friendships lost along the way. It's not like I ever broke up with any friends or socked anybody as my friend. But it just faded away, like you would meet up and it would be like, so this is really hard going to have a conversation. Katrina: So to me I have the level that I expect from all my relationships. Whether it's friends, clients, or romantically, where I'm just not gonna be in that if I don't have that conversation. And with men in particular, it wouldn't even progress beyond a certain point of that connections not there. You might have somebody and go out once or twice, but for me and my client as well ... I speak for my clients. I don't think it would get past two or three times meeting up with someone where your like, well if that conversation isn't there I can't do that. This is draining my soul and my mind. It doesn't mean I can't laugh and have fun and be social in different situations. But to spend time one on one with somebody, sex alone is not enough to keep you going, to meet up with somebody. At a certain point it's like I actually have to talk to this person as well. Patrick: Yep. It's one that leads to deeper conversations. It just is. But with the internet now, with social media the way it is ... you're really wasting time ... I can understand back in the day with horse and buggy shit and they had to settle, settle for something out there. But you're an enlightened person, you're thinking higher level than you would be so wasting your time. And why would you do such a fucking thing? Why would you settle and trap yourself and be living in a prison the rest of your life? I could not imagine what that must feel like for some people, you know? Katrina: Well people accept it as normal. They accept that that's just how it is. That relationships are a drain and that they're not something that I value to you. It's like something that cost you and I felt that way for a period as well, as you know. It was just where I was at in my journey that I bought into that belief. But fundamentally I didn't believe it and I wonder ... I see so many people who are so unhappy in their relationships and they just think that's how it is. But typically the people who I observe that are like that are the people who are not creating their life purposefully in other areas also. They're just accepting the status quo in everything. Where as for people like us, and people watching this. You don't accept the status quo in business or in lifestyle or in health. So why the fuck would we accept it in relationships? Katrina: Even for me, even when I was settling. I was so out of alignment and I knew it. I knew that fundamentally I don't believe this is how it has to be, of course I can have it all, cause I create my reality in business, in fitness , with my money, with my travel, with my lifestyle. Why would I not believe I can have a standard of excellence and amazingness in that area as well ...- Patrick: That's ...- Katrina: You can believe that ...- Patrick: That's a self love thing though. I think we've talked about this too. A big thing is self love. I started looking at this shit and I used to drink quite a bit and I started getting into these bad relationships. I started thinking about, I'd get into these bad relationships and I'd drink. When I wake up the next morning I would always think these things, I can't believe what you did, you fucken, I can't believe you acted like that, you drank, you piece of shit, you're fucken worthless. You're like garbage and I fucken hate myself. Patrick: So I thought this was something that happened after I got drunk. After I would get drunk and wake up the next morning just have these thoughts. But then I really started getting into loving myself. Love myself, loving the way I talk, loving the way I speak, loving the way I do things, loving the way I write and do things in general. And thinking that no matter what, even if I'm out there fucking up, I got my meme, I love the way I fuck things up. I love the way I fuck shit up ...- Katrina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.- Patrick: Even if I fuck shit up, it's part of my journey and I'm having a good time right? Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: I love the way that I do that. I love the way I get into shit. I get into some fucken trouble in the club, whatever, you know what I'm saying? I'm having a good time, it's fun. So then I start living like that, I started waking up and started feeling like, I would even get drunk and wake up the next morning and be like, fuck ... I wasn't having these thoughts anymore, you know? Katrina: Yep.- Patrick: I'm like I love myself.- Katrina: That self acceptance, yeah.- Patrick: It's not the ...- Katrina: Totally ...- Patrick: I'm not telling anybody just go be an alcoholic, I have a few drinks right? I've gotta control myself still. But, everything's in order. I'm not doing totally crazy shit like driving. I'll take an Uber as where I go. I just go have a good time. And even if I did, it's still self love. No matter what you do, still love yourself cause it's part of the fucken journey. That person that really, that person that needs to be in your life can come into your life, you know? And be part of your life, cause other wise you're gonna be building this prison cell for yourself. Katrina: Right.- Patrick: Around these people that you don't fucken life, cause you don't like yourself.- Katrina: Right, it's gotta be total love and acceptance. Brandon said love yourself even if you eat those fries. That's a really relevant analogy for a lot of women in particular. Katrina: Like I spent 15 years of my life if I would eat a fricken cookie I would hate myself for it and then I would do hours in the gym the next day. Now I'm like, if I eat something that doesn't feel good to me I'm like, okay whatever, either way I love and accept myself and from a place of love and acceptance I'm probably gonna make good choices. Katrina: Like there's many times where I might say something ... in relationships ... where I then feel self conscious or I feel like oh my God that was stupid or maybe I said it the wrong way. But I let go of it instantly now, because I'm like, it's whatever because I'm safe to be me. I love and accept myself regardless. And either this connection is real and will go on or it's not. And either way is fine. Cause like you were saying before, there's so many people in the world. The soul mate people are out there. The cookies. They want cookies ...- Patrick: They all sound good to me right now, I wish I had some ...- Katrina: Cookies. I just think you're so grounded when you learn how to love yourself. I know I fully love and accept myself now and that's probably really been in the past six to nine months. I think we were talking about this last week. I had to actively learn to do that though. I noticed that I finally admitted and acknowledged that I didn't love myself. That I wasn't treating myself as a person who loves themselves. And I embarked upon a bit of a journey to do that. Really, through my inner work and set work but mainly through choosing it. And also it's a helpful thing to use as kind of like, in order to figure shit out, whenever you feel unsure how to interact with somebody ... in a relationship or this is true in business also ... then you can say to yourself, if I did fully accept and love myself, what would I say in this moment? Right? - Patrick: Right.- Katrina: Or what would I act like? Is it something I need or want. I feel like that person doesn't know that or maybe they don't wanna give that. Well if I loved and accepted myself I would say what want. I would be okay with saying this is what I want, this is what I need. And I'd also be okay with the answer regardless, right? Katrina: Why would I need to be scared to say what I want if I love and accept myself? Patrick: Exactly. Same thing with guys too. - Katrina: So it's a practise.- Patrick: I could see myself though, before this, cause I've heard this plenty of times before and when I was younger. So it's very hard for somebody that doesn't love themselves to hear this kind of stuff. I don't know what you're talking about loving yourself, what the fuck are you talking about? Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: That shit. Life sucks, this kind of stuff. It's very hard, maybe this will change somebody that's right on the edge of that and get it started ...- Katrina: Well people have to be ... Katrina: [inaudible 01:02:49] Patrick: What is that? You said ... a guy still needs to hear this stuff to as well. Cause you've got two voices going on in your head. You got this one that's saying, yeah you got this pump up voice that's saying let's go dominate the world, let's go crush it, let's go make this money. But you also got this one that say, you fucken piece of shit, I can't believe you fucken did this, I can't believe that you fucked up again. People do this all the time, you'll say stuff, like you just fuck up, I can't believe you fucken lost your keys again, when you gonna stop fucken losing your keys. Where if you've heard somebody talk to you like this, if you heard somebody saying things to you like this, you would tell him to go fuck himself you know? If they told you, if they said things like this in real life ...- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You'd tell em to go fuck themselves. So it's like another, it's about self love right? That's a big ... that's a disconnect right there. You have to get rid of that voice, you have to love the stupid shit that you do ...- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: You have to love all the shit that you do no matter what, cause it's just your journey. You have to flip that, so I'm telling you, that's part of it. So if you cath yourself saying things like that to yourself then that's a problem. That's something you need to ... when you do, your life's gonna be better, your relationships gonna be better. Things are just gonna fall into place.- Katrina: And it just makes it so easy well. You realise that you can't screw up. It's not possible to screw anything up. And then the other thing I like to use as a guiding question aside from love and acceptance is, reminding myself that everything's perfect and everything's as it's meant the be. So sometime when something happens where at first you're like fuck, that's not good, or that's scary or bad or whatever. To then go, oh but wait, if I fundamentally believe that everything's perfect then that means this actually meant to be what's happened. So even though I don't understand it right now or it feels confronting or it's just annoying or whatever it is. If everything's perfect, than that means this is perfect, that means I'm safe. That means everything's as it's meant to be, I'm on path, even if I can't see the fucking path. So therefore, I'm free. So what do I actually choose to do. What is my action that I'm gonna take in this moment. What do I want to say. Katrina: I just think relationship in particular are built ... commonly built on so much fear ... like so much masking and ding and trying to say the right thing or trying to show not too much of yourself, cause then you might end up unsafe. But really you get that safety from inside of you and it starts with love and acceptance. And it starts with having powerful, fundamental beliefs in place. Such as I believe I always make the right decision. I fully believe that about myself, but I had to process that belief, I had to cultivate that belief and even when I didn't believe it. Cause at first my mind would have been like, uh no you don't you screw up all the time. Katrina: So then I started practising that belief. No, I always make the right decision, everything is always as it's meant to be. It is impossible for me to screw up. Even if I say something and afterwards I'm like, why did I say that? Then I'll smile and go, well maybe I can't see the reason right now but I know that I always make the right decision. - Patrick: There you go. - Katrina: So therefore I was meant to say that in order to learn something. Patrick: Yep, exactly. I know I'm doing the right thing. No matter what. Not only that you have better conversations when you're honest. You'll start seeing these conversations, you'll start having these conversations, like holy fuck this is a real conversation.- Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: What the fuck are these mother fucker talking about? You listen to them. I heard one like, can we skip TGI Fridays today and go to this other place? TG what the fuck? Shit that you're talking about when you're having an honest conversation, like this is a different fucking conversation. It's a totally different thing. - Katrina: It's a whole new level. It's a level that most people will never operate on the truth of the matter. And like you said, maybe some people watch this and they're like what the fuck are these people on about. They're just full of shit or whatever. But I think people have to be understood and pointed on their journey. Even if they don't understand this to be curious and be like, yeah I feel like there's something there that I can explore and want to explore. And I wanna open myself up to that. Katrina: Why would you not open yourself up to complete freedom? Right? Patrick: You should. And that's why, the thing about marriage, I just don't see ... there's so much fucking different, different problems along the way. If these people have built something and they've signed a contract. If they've built it on something and they've signed a contract on something that's not like this. That's not 100 percent completely honest, which most of it isn't, let's be honest. Then I feel fucken sorry for these people. I really do. Katrina: Yeah.- Patrick: It's just fucked up. Cause that's society, like we saying that's hypnotising, that's brain washing, that's why people wear these masks in the first place. That why people shut themselves down, and then they get in these fucken situations and then you know, next thing you know, get date nights and all this weird shit going on. Katrina: Yeah, but I think. I know for me, back when I got married, I'd never heard of all this stuff. It never occurred to me to share my deepest fears. I know we did speak very openly and vulnerably about a lot of stuff I guess but there were certain things where you didn't or you wouldn't or I didn't have the level of communicating or understanding that I do now have. And most people don't ... like you and I and people here, we're doing growth work every single day.- Patrick: Every day.- Katrina: In multiple areas of our lives and we're unbelieving all the time. Where as most people when they enter a relationship or get married have not even fricken heard of growth work so they might try and have an honest conversation but they don't even understand what that would mean to have a really honest conversation. So it's kind of an interesting one. I think even if you had a massive awesome level of open honest communication and then you got married ... but with or without you have this relationship, an official relationship. Well the only way that that's gonna thrive is if people are continuing their own individual growth and continuing to have those open discussions together as well. Katrina: It's just ... the reality is, there's just a few amount of people in the world, percentage wise, who do that. It still adds up to millions of people obviously but, it's not the norm. Katrina: I hear people talk about their relationships all the time or you'll observe it or you listen in. I travel so much and usually I'm by myself when I'm travelling so I really commonly will go to restaurants by myself and I'll just work on my laptop. And it's so interesting to just observe couple togeth

Do you know your fabricator? Meet David Carmody, Division Manager and CID+ at San Diego PCB Design. As a service bureau, San Diego PCB works on a variety of PCB design projects. Learn why David says, “You gotta know who you’re fabbing with” and how he is using DFM Reports to help customers integrate design and assembly in this episode of The OnTrack Podcast. Show Highlights: Memorable designs in telecom space and the development board for Dragon II, a SpaceX project, for the capsule they hope to take to Mars Package on packages, dropping the DDR - removing the burden on the designer Palomar advisory program - student programs for learning PCB design San Diego PCB acquired by Milwaukee Electronics, EMS and Engineering Services DFM report - a “stoplight report” for customers before starting build - customers love it and it fixes issues proactively especially with packaging A lot of engineers don’t know the manufacturing side and DFM reports can help with this “You gotta know who you’re fabbing with”  Will additive manufacturing processes be the answer? The business model remains to be seen. 3D printing - you can’t print copper (yet) Altium User Groups - have Altium in the title but we don’t run them! We’d love to support. Altium User Group in San Diego is very active and supportive. Advice from a Pro: Always keep learning, it will keep you fresh and make work more fun. PCB design isn’t the only practice David has mastered - he’s a martial artist too Links and Resources: David Carmody on Linkedin San Diego Altium Users Group Website San Diego PCB Milwaukee Electronics Tecate, NM Manufacturing Facility   Hi everyone this is Judy Warner with Altium’s OnTrack podcast - welcome back. Once again I have another incredible guest to speak with us today, but before we get started please follow me and connect with me on LinkedIn. I try to share a lot of things relative to engineering and PCB design and on Twitter I'm @AltiumJudy and Altium is on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and if you'd please subscribe and give us some comments so we know what you'd like to hear more about that would be great. So today again we have a great guest which is David Carmody of San Diego PCB David has a new title now: he is the division manager and he also has a CID. So David, welcome and thank you for joining me here at Altium today. So, we've known each other for a little while and I've had the benefit of being over at San Diego PCB and looking over your shoulder to some pretty wild complicated designs. So tell us a little bit about your day-to-day from the perspective of design bureaus and the kind of work that you see? Okay, we do get a lot of different designs, a bunch of varied designs, so we see a lot of military application, we see a lot of new technology - wearable technologies and things like that as well; it is pretty much all over the map though. I mean we get a little bit of anything and everything just because of the the nature of the service entity. A lot of the more upscale - so to speak -designs are the real nanotechnology sort of stuff where we're cramming a ton of the little parts into a board that's less than a half square inch total in size, or we're packing everything into a big housing that has to get heat out somehow because, I mean, we're sending up high output micro processors into into space and there is no airflow so we need to get the heat out in other ways. So there's a lot of that sort of stuff that we do get to see and and play with and and learn from as well. I think San Diego is kind of a neat place to work too because there is a lot of Defense here and there's also call comments and telecoms, and even in our local area, although I'm sure you see work from all over the country? We do we also have kind of some neat things right here in our own backyard. Oh yeah. So across that variety what would you say some of your more memorable designs would be? I was gonna say we do have have some telecom stuff that's gone on and those are those are fun boards just because they've got big processors on them and lots of high-speed lines, things like that. Most memorable, for me personally, would probably be a SpaceX design. I was able to design the development board for the Dragon 2. Oh my gosh!we’re not worthy! Do you mean the dragon heavy that they just launched - the second Falcon that ever went? Yeah the the Dragon 2 which is the capsule that they hope to take to Mars one day. Oh so that that one! Yeah.  I did the development board for that so it's just basically a big processor board with a lot of RF communications on it and things like that and they're breaking out all the other boards from that, and that was a fun project. I got to be a part of that was really cool. Yes, I sold some R4s to them and got to go through that facility a few times so I'm like a weirdo SpaceX geek and then we also sponsor the hyperloop pod teams for universities. So Ben that's helping us here with recording this; he and I got to go up and hang out at SpaceX and see them do that. I saw some of those pictures. So sorry for being so weird but I’m a kinda SpaceX geek. Yes, it’s been fun. We do have a couple of space contracts we've worked directly with NASA and MIT and also with Space Micro so, we've definitely learned our way around the Class 3A specifications and we know that inside and out. Not easy, really dense stuff. So you talked a little bit about the nanotechnology, is that where you sort of see the bleeding edge going? What are the the most challenging designs? I was gonna say the packaging is actually changing quite a bit, we're seeing some things that the packaging is doing that's well, quite frankly, I'm not terribly happy with because it takes away some of our place - but things like package-on packages is coming around. That's really cool technology, I mean, you put down the DSP or the PGA - whatever it happens to be - and then you can drop the DDR right on top of it. There's nothing for us to do; it's purely an assembly process, if that. Wow. So that stuff is definitely interesting and removing a burden, so to speak, on the designer but yeah, then the package size itself is just getting smaller and smaller. We're being pushed into HDI technology more and more often. 0.3 millimeter BGAs are pretty common, 0.4s are all over the place now. I mean even big ones. So the 0.3 three millimeter BGA's are getting common. I've been able to work on things as small as 0.15 millimeter though. So it was a flip chip sort of design where we're pushing the envelope on that thing so it was experimental, and things like that. I don't think they actually ever built it was costly, that whole get up then but that's that the trend we're seeing. Just everyone's pushing the package design more and more all the time. Something I noticed I took a peek at, even though I've known you for a while - I took a peek at your LinkedIn profile. I don't know that I'd ever done that and I like to ask people a lot, how'd you get into this industry? Because most of us didn't start out this way, but we ended up here. So did you start out there? I notice you took courses at Palomar College which is local here, and I don't know if they still do, but they used to have PCB design courses? That they do I'm actually on the Palomar Advisory Committee right now and we're helping to restructure some of that stuff and try to join up a little bit more, their student base through there. They've got a pretty good offering right now to make it better but yeah it's still active and it's it's one of the few places that you can really go for formal education. So it's good that they're there keeping it alive, and not just keeping it alive but updating it. Right, and that's kind of where you started out was it not? It was. Or did you just join them recently as part of the Advisory Committee, or did you start learning design there? I did technically start learning some design there but it was an accident really. [Laughter] See, my point is, we didn't do this on purpose. No absolutely not. Basically I had gone through their program and really gravitated - back then at least - 3d was just emerging. It was all in AutoCAD, there was no such thing as SolidWorks, it was just coming around. So I ended up jumping into AutoCAD 3d mechanical sort of stuff and and did my degree on that and then got on to nothing but waiting list after waiting list. So at that point I was talking to a guy that I was working with, he goes: call my brother in law, he does something in computers. And I talked to this guy, he was a PCB designer at Intel - I'm actually working with him now, we recently hired him, but yeah he's working out in our Arizona office but he gave me some excellent time; never actually met him face to face at the time but he gave me some phone time and told me what to look for, and what this industry had to offer and gave me a couple of places to go after. And I went after both - I ended up getting an offer from both of them, but I liked the smaller business so I took that side of things and spent 12 years back at an ‘unnamed company’ as the Design Manager. Laughter, well not as awesome as Sandy Opie… Well I don't know, it hasn't been a year yet, so San Diego PCB was acquired actually by Milwaukee Electronics right. Yes it’s been about a year and four months now, time flies. So Milwaukee is a really capable EMS shop up in-  remind me? It's Milwaukee. Oh is it Milwaukee! Yes, their primary branch is in Milwaukee - okay this confuses everyone - because we have multiple brands out there now. So our Milwaukee electronics brand has most of our engineering services and the EMS as well there. Up in Canby, Portland Oregon, now that's where we have Screaming Circuits - that is our quick term prototype house and there is also EMS there as well. Most people don't know that but the factory shares the floor for that and then we also have - actually it's also called Milwaukee Electronics - despite that, it's in Tecate Mexico but they've got a huge building down there and they're there literally clawing the mountain out from being behind this building. Right I've seen photos of it, it's really quite lovely, at least the photos are, it looks really modern. It's a very impressive facility. I was able to visit there and I had seen pictures of it when the shop floor was was only 50% filled; that place is full and like I said they're calling out the mountain now behind them, so that they can add on and I think gain about 30% more square footage. Growing like crazy. How has that been, that acquisition, for your customers and for you, there's obviously synergy there between the two firms so how has that been for you? The two companies, the acquisition itself was great, Milwaukee Electronics is a fantastic company to work for. I really enjoy all the people that are there. The synergy has taken some time to get things rolling, but I'm starting to see a little bit of a snowball effect and so we're starting to pick up some momentum to where Screaming Circuits is sending us customers back and we're sending them customers in and we're starting to get a collaborative database of the customers going right now, so that we can take a more active role on that and and really sell to both sides. There's been a little bit of crossover, but like I said, it took probably six months before I saw even the first crossover and right then another one happened, and then another one, but now we're up to where we're getting about at least one customer a week or something like that, that's doing some sort of crossover. so it's definitely building up speed. But it's still going to take a little bit more time. So since our listeners and watchers here will are mostly engineers and PCB designers, what do you think the benefit is to collaborating design to EMS - what are the benefits you think that occur there? When you're collaborating, one of the biggest things that's coming out right now, is basically  DFM report that we've been doing, it's something that I've been doing for years. Say a customer has their own design team, they want me to be a second set of eyes - something like that. I'll go through the design either on a cursory level if you just want me to look at DFM/DFA sort of issues. Do you want me to look at your circuits, do you want me to look at this whole thing - make sure that you placed it correctly? I coined that a ‘stoplight report’ a long time ago, and basically it's just - we give a nice little green note if it's informative only: this looks good it was done right, give a yellow note if, hey you might want to look into this, you might have some potential issues or, hey this part’s hanging off the board edge you're gonna knock it off, this needs a correction before it goes out - and those are obviously the red items - so customers seem to love that. I mean it's really easy, real clear-cut. They can kind of skim through it, hit the items that they want and that is really building up some speed right now with with a few customers because they've had an internal source for a long time. They've been using Screaming Circuits forever, but Screaming Circuits is going: okay you're going into bigger yields, you need to fix these sorts of items - let's fix them ahead of time and that's what we're being utilized to do. That sounds absolutely incredible especially now, because in the marketplace so many engineers are laying out their own boards. They may or may not have time or access to spend a lot of time with their fabricators our assembler, so I think to have that sort of oversight would be very welcome. I don't know if that's what's driving it or just having a second set of eyes what do you think? Probably a bit of both, I mean the engineers obviously get EMI and and EM theory, they do that really well, so they they always lay out the board well for that. But they aren't necessarily the best packagers, most PCB designers are puzzlers so, we do the packaging portion real well that's what we like to play with. But if you’re a good PCB designer you're going to know the EM side and you're also going to know the manufacturing side. A lot of the engineers don't know that, so they don't really look at that. I mean, I've been given boards that were completely routed and they said: rip out all the routing because this guy did it with 6mm vias with a 12mm pad on an 80mm  thick board and so, it's just wrong all the way around. And placement wasn't bad on that… But the aspect ratio is the killer. -and he used decent trace widths, but I mean, the most problematic piece of the board, and he killed it. And like it's a good thing that companies like Altium and other EDA companies make such powerful, great software - but there's no place in the software that says: no, stop dummy,   you can run DRCs or whatever, but it won't necessarily flag it for for DFM if your aspect ratio is off or whatever, unless you've turned those settings on or off I can imagine right? Yes but you can still improperly program DRCs too, you can say: hey I want 1mm holes on this board… I've heard you and Mike Creeden say that a design tool is only as good as the designer.    -yeah you absolutely need that and I mean, someday in the future would it be great to see the tools incorporate that sort of stuff? Yes, but at the same time you’ve got to know how your fab works too… And you don't want to limit yourself either because you could potentially create self-limiting things that are really irritating... -oh yeah. So I think we're gonna just keep giving you powerful tools and you guys have to work it out. Yeah I mean, we can just zoom up and zoom up and, hey that via looks plenty big enough to me, I could put my fist through it, but not in reality. The packaging thing that I was referring to earlier that is just starting to drive this industry just because of big 0.4 millimeter pitch BGA. I'm working with a fabricator that can't quite do the the latest and greatest and all of a sudden that pattern starts to become a challenge that’s almost impossible to break out. Right yeah I don't know where this train’s going… Yup I don't know - it will stop somewhere at some point… I know, I know, except it seems like we just keep creating some breakthrough so I'm keeping my eye on things like additive manufacturing, whatever we could do it 1mm, controlled trace and pull it off but there's no clear front-runner. Yeah, the additive processes are very interesting, haven't seen anyone really start pulling off a business model out of it. The 3d printing technologies is also very interesting but you can't print copper unfortunately, so they can't - yet at least - so there's some major hurdles there too that they have to go through. It'll be interesting. Well I wanted to shift gears a little bit because you, along with your colleague Randy Clemens here in San Diego, run a really solid Altium user group here and for those listeners that don't know this, Altium User Groups, they have our name in the title but we don't run them - they're completely run by the users, for the users they're very democratic and we just lend support and it's something that we've been talking a lot about here, is that we would like to grow the user community and help people launch groups. So can you give us a little bit of background and give us the do's and don'ts maybe, if people that are thinking about starting a local users group from what things have worked, when things maybe haven't worked, and how do we get more people to launch user groups? Just sign up - just for a little background on that - there was a user group that was here for quite a while that was run by Bill Brooks and it had some traction, it was running for quite a while and then either the community or whatever, started to kind of drop off a little bit. Randy and I saw that as a bad thing basically, and we talked to Altium, talked to a few people here, and then put together a general terms for the the group. Randy has always done Google boards, the blog and stuff, so he's very good at that, he's got a pretty major Altium tutorial board actually that's out there. So he took some of that and ported it over and turned it into a San Diego Altium User Group Board, you can just google that: San Diego Altium User Group and you'll find his board. If you sign up you'll get meeting invites so it's really that easy. All of our IP, as it were, is all up there and and I mean fully freely distributable so anyone can go ahead and take that as a template and start porting it over. Randy would probably help if anyone asked to set up or clone a board but Altim is really great on this thing, they're really helping us out, they help promote it you guys are actually doing lunches for us and all of that, so we really, really appreciate all that support. Lunch is a good way to get people out - just feed them and they will come. Exactly, you feed them and they show up. So we were restarting the group, it had a little bit of a slow start and it's kind of typical. I think we had all of three people show up once plus the the huge group of Altium group and San Diego PCB group because we host the location but no I mean our last last attendance was in the 30s somewhere, so it's it's doing real well now. What do you think the benefits are to the users that participate regularly? One of the big things is we always bring Chris Carlson out for new updates and stuff so we can see things as they're coming out. He gave us a wonderful tutorial on 18 not long ago, really to help us all dive into it as as the interphase changed. I thought Randy was gonna eat us alive - he came out he's like yeah bring him - he had a slide deck going, and ‘what about this?’  God bless Chris Carlson, our senior FAE, he addressed most of those things and just said, no Randy we just moved it over here, it's just over there and we tackle most of it. But what I really appreciate is that Chris actually took four things back to our R&D team, and I think that kind of real-time feedback, it helps us make better tools right? And if we make better tools we sell more software, it's not rocket science right? Right and we're happier designers… Right your’e happier and you’re productive and so I think it's a win-win and I think Altium is doing a good job culturally. So say you were in... I don't know... New Hampshire okay, and you knew there was a pretty good-sized design community what would you say the first steps would be to get something going? First of all, probably to clone that board that we've already got… And we will share this, by the way, in the show notes and we'll share that if you want to go take a look at it, because Randy has done a good job of kind of making a charter, it would be a good model to share. -so it's a fairly basic charter but yeah, clone that board, start marketing it against that, call Altium… Me, call me I will help you. -so get them to put it out in a newsletter and a blog or something along those lines so you can start that foot traffic and then invite your buddies, invite your friends and get them to do the same. I interrupted you there, so you said that Chris came out and you got to see the latest and greatest, Chris did a good thing on showing you AD18 - what other kind of benefits do you think the users see over time? I mean we've already kind of hit on the the dynamic feedback and that's obviously great information, but just the user-to-user help is always nice too. I mean I've had people come in with a laptop and and open it up and go, look I'm struggling over here, what the heck do I need to do? What rule do I need to write to make this thing work right? And we can just basically rub shoulders and get things moving and get a workaround if it needs it just to move it along. Well I've been really impressed since I've been down here for about a year now and just seeing the group it's just very active and it seems like a really healthy thing and yeah all I get to do, is use my card and buy you guys lunch and if you want a speaker we’ll send one, if you don't want one we won't interfere so I think that user-to-user and that you guys really get to own it, is sort of a powerful model because it's not like we're going to come down and spring a free sales pitch... Yeah well, Altium doesn't go in they're not salesy. Yeah but we try actually, not to do it. No, it's been fantastic for that. Well I wanted to bring this up because you and Randy spoke at AltiumLive and Randy took a little part of his time speaking to talk about the Altium user groups and I was so surprised! I'm like, well you can spend your time talking about that if you want Randy, but I didn't think there would be that much interest - but I happened to pop in the back door just to see how it was going and people were really engaged and then people came and talked to me after. I think there's kind of a hunger to do it. I'm just wondering... I just wanted you to share with our listeners, if people did want to do it they would see, oh here's some steps to take because I don't know, though, that maybe we've done a really good job of advertising it because we do want to stay out of it, we want to contribute but not inserting ourselves into an organic user’s group. So, thanks for sharing that part. Hm-mm yeah, for the AltiumLive, Lawrence Romine asked Randy to do a little bit of a spiel on that and yeah, there were a lot of people from LA that sounded like they were going to be starting their own, or a couple of them, depending on the demographics or Geographics up there and then there were quite a few out of state as well that that sounded like they wanted to start one. I went to one in Utah, which I guess has been going on for a while. So, I got connected with someone actually at AltiumLive and we ended up connecting and there was like 80 people there to see Ben Jordan talk about AD18, I'm like okay, Wow! 80 - it was huge, but I think that group has been very active and been around for a long time so it wasn't like a new thing and they actually come from Salt Lake and south of there, so it was almost like two combined groups. So anyways, thank you for sharing about that. Any final thoughts? Nothing that I can think of right off the top of my head. Well thank you so much for coming in today… -Thank you You’re a good sport and we really appreciate you in San Diego PCB and thank you for sharing. Oh one thing I wanted to ask you was because the upper-end (age-wise) is starting to kind of age out in the industry and we're getting new ones coming in, what is one - since you're sort of a veteran designer - what is say, one or two pieces of advice that you would give to a young designer? The number one thing I would say is, never stop learning. I mean I got into a rut at one point where I wasn't learning I couldn't stand up on the the current trends, things like that, and that job got to be a drag, it really did because it's - overall - we did the same thing over and over all the time. It's very repetitive, but if you're standing up on the latest trends you always have something else to reach at and something else to go after. Always have the latest way to solve something too, so it just makes the job overall a breeze; makes it a lot easier to do day-to-day and keeps it fun and interesting. Very good. Okay, last question: I said that was the last one but I like my very last, last question - I call this part of the podcast designers after hours okay - so there's people like you and I know in common, like Bill Brooks who started the Alts Music Group. There's the sculptor, I just spoke to Chris Hunrath earlier today, who's a scuba diver. So what do you like to do after hours? Honestly Mike my side is a little sore right now because I did some martial arts last night so that's one of my little best-kept secrets, so to speak, been doing that for a long time done Tan Sido, got a third-degree black belt there, and then migrated over to Kung Fu and have a black sash. Well, remind me to never make you mad! You’re so soft spoken and could kick my butt. [Laughter] Pat's the one that always bounces that around the office but he's honestly the only one I’d ever damage too… [Laughter] That's cool. See, another interesting after hour designer. Well David, thanks again and I know we'll see you soon again. This has been Judy Warner and David Carmody of San Diego PCB. Thank you for joining us today we'll make sure to share our links below and please visit us again next time. Until then, remember to always stay on track.

Want to know if targeting a keyword misspelling will actually help grow downloads for your app? Well I've got some real data to give you that answer. Watch Video on YouTube and Subscribe to our Channel: https://youtu.be/Zm-Ykfdhejk

As some wise person once said, a change is as good as a holiday. Well I've had a holiday and am finally getting back to work so it's now time for some changes.  I'm starting a new format for the show commencing with my next episode #53. I'm a strong believer that you can't 'show up' at work or in life if you're not taking care of your wellBEING. I'm also a huge exponent of the thinking that we are 'human beings not human doings' as Wayne Dyer so eloquently put it. This has been an area of huge significance for me in the years post my Breast Cancer diagnosis and treatment and I feel that it's been a strong theme in the podcast episodes and talks I've done since launching Being Indispensable in mid 2016.  My belief that being perceived as indispensable or a linchpin employee as Seth Godin describes it needs to be driven by three things: Knowing yourself - what are your strengths and weaknesses, what do you need to work on improving to be perceived as a linchpin as well as what you need to be a human being. What is working for you at any given time in the area of your wellbeing and what isn't...and what do you need to do about it! Knowing your boss - what drives them, what are their values and beliefs and what are their priorities. How can you better assist them, add value to them and really be perceived as a strategic partner.  Knowing your organisation - do you really understand what the company or business you work for is all about. Where have they come from and where are they going.  So going forward I will be producing episodes based on these two aspects of us as working people - human beings and aspiring linchpins. I will alternate between a 'BEING' related episode and an 'INDISPENSABLE' related episode.  I look forward to having you along for the ride. 

Plan: The ULTIMATE Guide to Simplify Your Documentation with Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions Frustrated with how much time you spend on documentation? Not sure what needs to go IN or OUT of your notes? Worried about Medicare coming to knock on your door? You're not alone. Many of you said you wanted more content on documentation when you all took the SRP survey a while back. Well I've partnered up with the best in the biz - Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions -www.valuebeyondthevisit.com They're bringing you the Ultimate Guide to Simplifying Your Documentation this month. We'll wrap things up on Wednesday, July 26 at 8p EST with a LIVE Interactive Webinar where Dee Kornetti & Cindy Krafft will answer YOUR questions regarding documentation, regulations, & management. This is an AMAZING OPPORTUNITY! Get access at http://SeniorRehabProject.com/LIVE

Assessment: The ULTIMATE Guide to Simplify Your Documentation with Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions Frustrated with how much time you spend on documentation? Not sure what needs to go IN or OUT of your notes? Worried about Medicare coming to knock on your door? You're not alone. Many of you said you wanted more content on documentation when you all took the SRP survey a while back. Well I've partnered up with the best in the biz - Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions -www.valuebeyondthevisit.com They're bringing you the Ultimate Guide to Simplifying Your Documentation this month. We'll wrap things up on Wednesday, July 26 at 8p EST with a LIVE Interactive Webinar where Dee Kornetti & Cindy Krafft will answer YOUR questions regarding documentation, regulations, & management. This is an AMAZING OPPORTUNITY! Get access at http://SeniorRehabProject.com/LIVE

Objective: The ULTIMATE Guide to Simplify Your Documentation with Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions Frustrated with how much time you spend on documentation? Not sure what needs to go IN or OUT of your notes? Worried about Medicare coming to knock on your door? You're not alone. Many of you said you wanted more content on documentation when you all took the SRP survey a while back. Well I've partnered up with the best in the biz - Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions -www.valuebeyondthevisit.com They're bringing you the Ultimate Guide to Simplifying Your Documentation this month. We'll wrap things up on Wednesday, July 26 at 8p EST with a LIVE Interactive Webinar where Dee Kornetti & Cindy Krafft will answer YOUR questions regarding documentation, regulations, & management. This is an AMAZING OPPORTUNITY! Get access at http://SeniorRehabProject.com/LIVE

1/4 The ULTIMATE Guide to Simplify Your Documentation with Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions Frustrated with how much time you spend on documentation? Not sure what needs to go IN or OUT of your notes? Worried about Medicare coming to knock on your door? You're not alone. Many of you said you wanted more content on documentation when you all took the SRP survey a while back. Well I've partnered up with the best in the biz - Kornetti & Krafft Health Care Solutions -www.valuebeyondthevisit.com They're bringing you the Ultimate Guide to Simplifying Your Documentation this month. We'll wrap things up on Wednesday, July 26 at 8p EST with a LIVE Interactive Webinar where Dee Kornetti & Cindy Krafft will answer YOUR questions regarding documentation, regulations, & management. This is an AMAZING OPPORTUNITY! Get access at http://SeniorRehabProject.com/LIVE

Well I've completed NaNoWrimo again! 50,000 words of a first draft written in November. But more significant than that is that it is the final book in my three book Magpies and Magic series. So now I am faced with a common problem : what to work on next. In this show I discuss the options and my thinking as to which to use. The post Choosing your Next Project appeared first on Begin Self-Publishing.

What follows is an edited transcript of my conversation with Emily Hamilton about land use regulations' effects on affordable housing. Petersen: My guest today is Emily Hamilton. She is a researcher at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Emily, thanks for being on Economics Detective Radio. Hamilton: Thanks a lot for having me. Petersen: So, Emily recently wrote a paper titled "How Land Use Regulation Undermines Affordable Housing" along with her co-author Sanford Ikeda. The paper is a review of many studies looking at land use restrictions and it identifies four of the most common types of land use restrictions. Those are: minimum lots sizes, minimum parking requirements, inclusionary zoning, and urban growth boundaries. So Emily, could you tell us what each of those restrictions entail? Hamilton: Sure. So, starting off with the first, minimum lots sizes. This is probably what people most commonly associate with zoning. It's the type of Euclidian zoning that separates residential areas from businesses and then within residential areas limits the number of units that can be on any certain size of land. And this is the most common tool that makes up what is sometimes referred to as Snob Zoning, where residents lobby for larger minimum lots sizes and larger house sizes to ensure that their neighbors are people who can afford only that minimum size of housing. Petersen: So it keeps the poor away, effectively. Hamilton: Exactly. And then parking requirements are often used as a tool to ensure that street parking doesn't get too congested. So when cars first became common, parking was really crazy where people would just leave their car on the street, maybe double parked, or in an inconvenient situation near their destination. And obviously as driving became more and more common and that was just an untenable situation and there had to be some sort of order to where people were allowed to park. But street parking remained typically free or underpriced relative to demand. So, people began lobbying for a parking requirement that would require business owners and residential developers to provide parking that was off streets so that this underpriced street parking remained available. But that brought us to today where we often have just mass seas of parking in retail areas and residential areas, which are paper focuses on. Parking substantially contributes to the cost of housing, making it inaccessible in some neighborhoods for low income people and driving up the cost of housing for everyone who has been using the amount of parking that their developer was required to provide. Petersen: So that's one where you can really see the original justification. And it makes sense, if you have a business and a lot of people are parking and it spills over onto the street then maybe that's an externality. And it seems reasonable for you to have to provide parking for the people who come to your business, especially if a lot of them are driving there. But we push that too far, is what I'm hearing. Hamilton: Exactly. Yeah, it does seem reasonable but the argument in favor of parking requirements tends to ignore that business owners have every incentive to make it easy to get to their business. So, in many cases there's not necessarily an externality because the business owner providing the parking has the right incentive to provide enough to make it easy for their customers to get there. The externality really comes up when we think about street parking and Donald Shoup---probably the world's foremost expert on parking---has made the argument that pricing street parking according to demand is a real key in getting parking rules right. Petersen: So, on to the next one. What is inclusionary zoning? Hamilton: Inclusionary zoning is a rule that requires developers to make a certain number of units in a new development accessible to people at various income levels. Often inclusionary zoning is tied with density bonuses. So, a developer will have the choice to make a non-inclusionary project that is only allowed to have the regular amount of density that that lot is zoned for. Or, he can choose to take the inclusionary zoning density bonus which will allow him to build more units overall including the inclusionary unit and additional market-rate units. Typically, units are affordable to people who are making a certain percentage of the area median income, so people who might not have low income but who are making not enough to afford a market rate unit in their current neighborhood. Petersen: Okay, so that's sort of forcing developers to build affordable units that they then will probably lose money on, so that they can build the market rate units that they can make money on. Hamilton: Exactly. That's how cities make inclusionary zoning attractive to developers is by giving them that bonus that can allow them to build more market rate housing. In other cities, however, inclusionary zoning is required for all new developments so it really varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction how it's implemented. Petersen: So the fourth land use restriction you mention is urban growth boundaries. What are those? Hamilton: So Oregon is the most famous example in the US of implementing an urban growth boundary. And what it is, is basically a state law that requires each city to set up a boundary around its edges, where for a certain amount of time no housing can be built outside of that boundary. And the idea is to gradually expand the city's footprint over time to allow the suburbs to expand a little further, but to restrict that suburban development using the boundary for some time period. Other examples like London's urban growth boundary I believe are permanent, so there are certain areas that can never be developed. Petersen: So I believe we have something like this in Vancouver. We have farmland in the metro Vancouver area which---for context this area is one of the most overheated high-priced housing markets in the world---and we have this land that's just zoned for farms. And a lot of the time people don't even bother to plant crops, they're just holding the land for the day when eventually it can be rezoned into housing. So I looked it up before we went on and some of these plots are $350,000 an acre, which of course is not reflective of just how productive they are as farmland but of how productive they would be when they are eventually rezoned. Hamilton: Exactly. Yes, very similar to Oregon's program. And a lot of empirical studies have been done on Portland's growth boundary because researchers can easily look at the block that are selling on either side of the boundary to see whether or not it's affecting land prices and several studies have found a very clear effect of the boundary in driving up the price of the land. Petersen: And in Vancouver, the city is very reluctant to rezone. So, people are constantly applying and being denied but you know it's like winning the lottery having your bit of useless farmland rezoned to super high value housing. And people are just holding on to those dead lands in the hopes of winning that lottery which is kind of---it's a bizarre outcome. Hamilton: It is. And urban growth boundary supporters often frame it as environmental regulation that's going to protect this open space. While encouraging people to live in more dense and transit and walkable friendly neighborhoods, but it's not as if Portland is free of other types of zoning rules. So at the same time it has this urban growth boundary it also has a lot of traditional zoning rules that limit the potential to build up while the growth boundary is limiting the potential to grow out. So it's coming from both directions. Petersen: So, just how costly do economists think these regulations are? What kind of estimates do they have? Hamilton: So, I think some of the most compelling estimates look at the macroeconomic effect of these rules. Because typically the most binding zoning rules are also in the most productive cities, where there's the highest level of demand for people to live. Because these are where the best jobs are as well as the best urban amenities, a lot of people want to live here. One study looking at this macroeconomic effect found that the three most productive cities which are New York, San Francisco, and San Jose---I should clarify; this is just looking at the effective growth within US---if those three cities lowered the burden of their land use regulation to that of the median American city it could result in a 9% increase in the level of US GDP. So, these rules are having just an enormous effect on economic growth. Not to mention the very substantial effect they have for individuals and making it difficult or impossible for people to afford to live in their desired location. Petersen: So, you know, San Francisco that's where Silicon Valley is. And so we think of it as a place with super high productivity---tech workers working at Google---and yet with their housing market being one of the most restricted. So not only is there the loss from the housing market itself, that you could sell a lot of housing there and that would increase GDP by itself, but also there are people living in less productive areas doing less productive jobs, who could come and work for Google. But they can't because they've been priced out of the market. Is that where most of the effect comes from? Hamilton: That's right. Yeah, I think the effect is also certainly at that top-end of the market where we're seeing all kinds of blog posts and articles about a person making six figures at Facebook who can't afford the Bay area. So those people might choose to go live in say Denver, or Austin, or a city that still has plenty of great jobs but isn't as productive as San Francisco or San Jose. But then we also see this down the income spectrum, where people who are in the service industry, say waiting tables, could make much more in San Francisco then they can in Houston, or wherever they happen to live. But their quality of life is much better in some of less productive cities because of the cost of housing and other areas of consumption that higher real estate costs drive up. Petersen: One thing I've heard about a lot of these Californian coastal cities---I think it was Palo Alto---where not a single member of the Palo Alto Police Department lives in Palo Alto because you just can't live there on a policeman's salary, so they all have to commute in every day and then commute out every night. Hamilton: Yeah, and for some of these hugely important needed services it just makes the quality of life of the people in those industries so much worse than it would be if they could afford to live closer to their job. Petersen: Right. So, to summarize the labor market mobility of the United States in general has been greatly restricted by these land use restrictions. Even though the land use restrictions are local, this has an effect on the national economy. Hamilton: Exactly right. And we can see this in the data where income convergence across areas of the country has greatly slowed down since the 1970's when these rules really started taking off. Petersen: You argue that the costs of these restrictions fall primarily on low-income households so can you talk through how that happens? Hamilton: Sure. It happens in two ways. First off, you have the low income people who are living in very expensive cities and these people might have to endure very long commutes---you talked about the police officer in Palo Alto who can't live anywhere near his job. Not that police officers are low income, but just as an example that illustrates the point. Or they have to live in very substandard housing, perhaps a group house that's just crammed with people maybe even illegally, in order to afford to live anywhere near where they're working. Petersen: Yeah, I was going to say I thought those group houses were illegal from these very same land use regulations, but I guess people get around it. Hamilton: Yeah, a lot of US cities have rules about the number of unrelated people who can live in a house. And certainly those rules are sometimes broken. That, I think, is clear to anyone who's spent time in an expensive city. You know, people have to live in these less than ideal conditions and waste too much of their time commuting in order to make that work. But the unseen version of it is the person who lives in a low-income part of the country and would like to improve their job opportunity and quality of life by moving to somewhere more productive, but they simply can't make it work so they stay in that low-income area without meeting their working potential. Petersen: There was a study by David Autor---I think I cited it in a previous episode and got the author name wrong but it's definitely David Autor---and it was looking at the shock, the trade shock that hit United States when it opened up trade with China in the early 2000's. And it basically showed that a lot of parts of the country just never recovered. So, if you worked in particular industries---I think the furniture industry was one that was basically wiped out---and if you worked in a town next to a furniture factory and that was your job, not only did you lose your job, you lost all the value in your home because the one industry in the town is gone. And you can't afford to move to one of the booming industries like Silicon Valley or in another part of the country because they've so greatly restricted the elasticity of their housing supply. And that's not all, Autor's paper basically just shows that it took a very long time to recover from the shock and a lot of places didn't recover at all. But I really think that housing is part of that picture if you're trying to figure out why the US economy can't respond to shocks like it used to in the 20th century. That has to be a big part of the picture. Hamilton: Definitely. And that trend, as far as people being able to leave these depressed or economically stagnant areas, this also comes out in the income's convergence as we talked about earlier. Petersen: So, the other part of that, I saw in your paper, was not only are poor people hurt but rich people who already own homes have seen those home prices rise. So it's affecting inequality at both ends of the spectrum, correct? Hamilton: Right, Bill Fischel at Dartmouth has done a lot of work on why it is that people lobby so hard in favor of rules that restrict development. And he terms it as the Homevoter Hypothesis, where people who own homes have a huge amount of their wealth tied up in their home and so they are in favor of rules that protect that asset and prevent any shocks such as a huge amount of new development that could result in a decline in their homes value. I think you talked about that in your episode with Nolan Gray on trailer parks. Petersen: Yeah, we talked about William Fischel's Homevoter Hypothesis. So the essence of that is that people vote in local elections, and they lobby to restrict the supply of housing in their neighborhood, and that increases their wealth by, you know, increasing the land values in that area. How do you deal with that when there's such an entrenched special interest everywhere to push up land prices? Hamilton: I think that's the hugely difficult problem. And at the same time as we have the challenges with the Homevoter system that Fischel plays out, we have a lot of federal policies that encourage homeownership as not just a good community-building tool but also as an investment. So people are programmed by the federal government to see their house as an investment in spite of economic challenges that it presents. David [Schleicher]---a law professor at Yale---has done some really interesting work on ways that institutional changes could limit the activity of homeowners and lobbying against new development. One of his proposals is called a Zoning Budget. And under a zoning budget, municipalities would have to allow a certain amount of population growth each year. So, they could designate areas of a city that are going to only be home to single family homes, but within some parts of the city, they would have to allow building growth to accommodate a growing population. Petersen: How would that be enforced, though? Hamilton: It would have to be a state law, or perhaps a federal law, but I think much more likely a state law that would mandate that localities do that. Massachusetts recently passed a law that requires all jurisdictions within the state to allow at least some multifamily housing. So it's kind of a similar idea. The state government can set a floor on how much local government can restrict development. Petersen: So, what I'm hearing is that different levels of government have different incentives with respect to restrictions. So, at the lowest level if I'm just in a small district or municipal area and I can restrict what my neighbors build on their property, that really affects my home price and that's the main thing that I'm going to lobby for at that level of government. But if I had to go all the way to the state government to try to push up house prices in my neighborhood, it wouldn't go so well. The state government has incentives to allow more people to live within their boundaries. Is that the gist of it? Hamilton: Yeah, that's right. It's easy to imagine a mayor of a fancy suburban community who simply represents his constituents' views that the community already has enough people, you know, life there is good and so nothing needs to change. But, I don't think that you'd find a Governor that would say "Our state doesn't need any more people or economic growth." So the incentives are less in favor of homeowners, local homeowners, the further up you go from the local to state jurisdiction. Petersen: Right. I guess a big issue is that the people who would like to move somewhere but live somewhere else don't get to vote in that place's elections or in their ballot measures. And so there's this group that has an interest in lower housing costs because they might move to your city or your town, if they could afford it, but they're not represented politically in that city or town and so they can't vote for more housing and lower prices. But then when you go to the whole state level and people are mobile within a state, those people do have a say or they are represented and pricing them out of the places they'd like to live really is bad for politics, bad for getting their votes. Hamilton: Right. So the Palo Alto police officer can't vote to change Palo Alto's policies but he can vote to change California policy. Petersen: Right, because he still lives within California. So one of the other policy recommendations I saw in your paper is tax increment local transfers or TILTs. What are they and how can they impact land use restrictions? Hamilton: That's another idea that comes from David Schleicher and I think it's another really interesting concept. The idea behind TILT is that a new development increases the property tax base within a jurisdiction. So, if you have a neighborhood, say a block full of single family homes that is allowed to be sold to a developer in order to build a couple of large apartment buildings, each apartment is going to be less expensive than the previous single family homes, but overall the apartment buildings will contribute more to property tax. And the idea behind a TILT is that part of this tax increment---which is the difference between the new tax base and the previous smaller tax base---could be shared with neighbors to the new development to kind of buy off their support for the development. So, those people who are in some sense harmed by the new buildings, whether in terms of more traffic or a change in their neighborhood's character, also benefit from the new building financially. So they're more likely to support it. Petersen: So economists talk about Potential Pareto Improvements, where you have a situation where some people are made better off while other people are worse off, but you could have a transfer to make everyone better off. And what I'm hearing with TILTs is you actually do that transfer, you actually pay off the losers with some of the surplus you get from the winners. So everyone can be better off when you make this overall beneficial change. Hamilton: Exactly. And sometimes communities do use community benefit as a tool to try to get developers to share their windfall and build a new project with the neighborhood. So they might say, "you can build an apartment building here, but you also have to build a swimming pool that the whole neighborhood can use at this other location," and in a way that achieves the end goal of buying off community support for new development. But it also drives up the cost of the new housing that the developer can provide. So TILTs have the advantage of keeping the cost of building the same for the developer, but still sharing that financial windfall of the new development with a broader group of people. Petersen: Yeah, I really like these policy recommendations. It would be so easy to just say "land use restrictions are bad, let's not have those anymore." But these really have an eye to the political structures that we currently have and towards making progress within the structure we have. So I like that approach to policy or to policy recommendations. I think economists should maybe do that more often. Hamilton: Yeah, looking for a win-win outcome. Petersen: The one other one that I don't think we've talked about is home equity insurance, which sounds like a business plan more than a policy proposal. But how can home equity insurance help to reduce the costs of land use restrictions? Hamilton: That proposal also came from Bill Fischel a couple of decades ago following on his work of the Homevoters theory. He proposed the idea that the reason home owners are so opposed to new development is often because they have so much of their financial wealth tied up in this house that they're not just opposed to a loss in their investment, but even more so, opposed to risk. So they want the policies that they see will limit the variance in their home equity and he proposed home equity insurance as a financial goal that could lower this threat and provide homeowners with a minimum amount of equity that they would have regardless to the new development. I think it's a really interesting concept but it's unclear, would this be a private financial product? Obviously the market isn't currently providing it, or would it be some kind of government policy? And while I do think it's very interesting, I think that we should be somewhat leery of new government policies that promote homeownership as a financial wealth building tool. Petersen: Well, the funny thing is that usually with insurance, if you have fire insurance you want to minimize the moral hazard of that, you don't want people to say: "Well I've got fire insurance so I don't have to worry about fires anymore." But with this, you sort of want that, you have insurance on the value of your home and then actually your goal is to make people less worried about the value of their home so that they will be okay with policies that reduce it. It's almost the opposite of what you want with insurance most of the time. In this case you want to maximize moral hazard. Hamilton: Yeah that's a great point and I think that's why it could only be a government product. Petersen: Right. Because if the private sector was providing home price insurance to homeowners then the company that provided the insurance would now have an incentive to lobby against upzoning the neighborhood. Hamilton: Exactly. Yeah it would create a new a new group of NIMBYs. Petersen: Yeah, at first I thought 'Oh great!', well this is something that we can just do, without the government. You can just get a bunch of people together, who have an interest in making cities more livable and they can provide this financial asset. But that seems like there are problems with it that are hard to overcome within the private sector. So overall do you think the tide might be turning on the NIMBYs? Are people becoming more aware of this issue and of land use restrictions and their effects on housing prices? Hamilton: I do think awareness is growing. There's a group popping up called YIMBY which stands for "Yes In My Backyard" as opposed to the suburban NIMBY to say "Not In My Backyard" to any sort of new development. And these YIMBY groups are gaining some traction in cities like San Francisco and lobbying in favor of new development to counter the voices that oppose new development. I am somewhat pessimistic, I have to say, just because from a public choice standpoint the forces in favor of land use regulations that limit housing are so powerful. But in spite of my pessimism, I'm seeing since the time that I started working on this issue several years ago, much more coverage of the issue from all kinds of media outlets, as well as much more interest in on-the-ground politics from people who aren't in the typical homeowner category. Petersen: Yeah, and I am hopeful too. But I often see people blame other factors for high home prices. They blame the speculators. The speculators are always the ones that are pushing up home prices. And rarely, I think, do people blame restrictions, although the YIMBY movement is a happy exception to that. Hamilton: Yeah, I think way too often real estate developers are framed as the enemy in these debates because they're the ones who make money off building new housing. But it's really the regulations that are to blame both for the inordinate profits that developers can make in expensive cities, and for the high costs of housing. Petersen: Do you have any closing thoughts about land use restrictions? Hamilton: I think that it's just really important to try to spread the message about the costs that these regulations have. Not just for low-income people but for the whole country and world economic growth. That's obviously a cause that I would think everyone would be behind: creating opportunity for people to live in the most productive cities where they can contribute the most to society and to the economy. Petersen: My guest today has been Emily Hamilton. Emily, thanks for being part of Economics Detective Radio. Hamilton: Thanks a lot for having me.  

Jenn T. Grace – Episode 88 - Building a Niche Online Community with Dr. Gloria Brame Jenn T Grace:              You are listening to the Personal Branding for the LGBTQ Podcast, episode 88.   Introduction:              Welcome to the Personal Branding for the LGBTQ Professional Podcast; the podcast dedicated to helping LGBTQ professionals and business owners grow their business and careers through the power of leveraging their LGBTQ identities in their personal brand. You'll learn how to market your products and services both broadly, and within the LGBTQ community. You'll hear from incredible guests who are leveraging the power of their identity for good, as well as those who haven't yet started, and everyone in between. And now your host. She teaches straight people how to market to gay people, and gay people how to market themselves. Your professional lesbian, Jenn - with two N's - T Grace.   Jenn T Grace:              Well hello and welcome to episode 88 of the podcast. I am your host, Jenn, with two N's T. Grace, and today I have another interview for you. So this is four interviews in a row, all of which have had amazing content. I really appreciate the feedback that you're giving on the guests, and the topics, and all that great stuff. So today we are talking to Gloria Brame who is a certified sexologist. She has been writing about sex education, sex therapy, BDSM; you name it, she's been writing about it for a very long time. She started the first Internet group back in 1987 that was an online community for people in BDSM. So she has quite a historical perspective of the Internet, how she's used it to grow her personal brand, and her platform, and she's one of the most recognized and cited sources on the topic, which she talks about in the interview, which she really thinks has a lot to do with the fact that she is an academic and she has a PhD in the topic, and it was just a really, really fascinating interview to hear all of the ways in which she's been able to really get her message out there. And she talks specifically about social media strategy, we also talk about the difference between doing traditionally publishing a book, or doing a self-published book. So it's just honestly a wealth of information, and the topic was really interesting to talk to her about. So overall I really hope that you enjoy this interview, and she provides information on how to get in touch with her, but as you're listening to this if you're on a treadmill, or in the car and can't write it down, you can go to www.JennTGrace.com/88 and that is for episode number 88 of the podcast, and there you'll find the links of anything we discussed, her books, all that good stuff. But anyway I really hope you enjoy this interview, and feel free to reach out with any questions or comments. Thanks so much and enjoy.                                     Alright yeah so if you can just kind of start off by telling the listeners who you are, and what you do, and then we'll go from there.   Gloria Brame:             Okie dokie. My name is Gloria Brame. I have a PhD in Human Sexuality. I'm probably best known for being the lead author on a book on BDSM called 'Different Loving' which came out originally in 1993. I just did a 23-year follow-up I called 'Different Loving Too.' I started out just as a kinky person writing about kinky sex from an academic point of view because I was actually an English professor at the time, and that's really my background. But then I found it was very difficult to get any jobs once I've written a book about BDSM. So I decided to go back to school, I got a PhD, I made my dissertation project- I had a research project and a dissertation all about BDSM so you could say I have a degree now in BDSM.   Jenn T Grace:              Nice.   Gloria Brame:             And about a year after I was graduated I became a certified sexologist, which means I'm certified to work in the field of either sex therapy, or sex education, or public sexual health, any of those things. So I hung out my shingle and decided to become a sex therapist, and basically that's how I make a living even though I continue to write and publish books.   Jenn T Grace:              Nice. So when did you become certified, was it 2002?   Gloria Brame:             Yeah. I became a certified sexologist.   Jenn T Grace:              And you started your business shortly thereafter?   Gloria Brame:             Fourteen years ago. Right I had been doing really since the nineties what I guess I would call peer counseling because I founded a BDSM support group online way back in 1987, and before it was called BDSM. But it was for kinky people, and I founded it and I had such a huge membership, and a lot of the people were so encouraged- you know how it is, I was like the leader of the chat so I started doing a lot of peer counselling there because people would start writing me an email. So I started to think about- I really just wanted to write because that's my true love. I just wanted to write, but you really can't make a living as a writer unless you have phenomenal success. Like 'Fifty Shades of Gray' maybe. Or you're Stephen King, or something. But most writers do not make a lot of money. Most of us have to do something to earn money, so instead of teaching I wanted to do therapy, and that's been really awesome.   Jenn T Grace:              And have you used I guess the learnings and the knowledge that you've gotten by working with people one-on-one? Has that influenced what you've written about in any way?   Gloria Brame:             You know I see all of my life, and my life work really, as like just one big bowl that on the very inside, the inner rubber band if you will, is the writing. But everything is built up to a point where I feel that everything is about sex, and everything is about speaking my various truths about sex. So I've written academic types of books like the ‘Different Loving’s are more on the academic end. You know I'm working on a trilogy, I have one more book to write, called 'The Truth about Sex,' which is basically my twenty years of knowledge as a sexologist and theorist packed into three short volumes that sort of re-educate people on sexual diversity as a norm, and not binary heteronormative sex as a norm, because it never really was. And then I also have published some autobiographies where I talk about my sex history, because that's another piece of my work, my belief that what happens to us early in life impinges on sexual choices we make as adults. Not sexual identity, but choices.   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting. And now you've obviously written a handful of books, and right before we hit record I was saying that you must have some insights around how you've really positioned yourself as a sex expert, especially since you're frequently cited- one of the most frequently cited in the world.   Gloria Brame:             I came from a humanities background. I was a literary nerd, probably like many of the writers who are listening, we all start out as readers, and that was really my thing and I never really even went close to the sciences. I was okay in science but I wasn't even interested in it, and after writing 'Different Loving,' which I wrote because for one reason only, I didn't feel that anybody had written an honest book about that type of sexuality, and I was two or three years into being out, and I was really rah, rah, rah and I felt like, 'This is a terrible thing, nobody knows what it's really like.' So I said about writing that book. In the process of writing that book, I totally became hooked on sex history. I mean totally became hooked on my topic. I mean what could be better for a writer? I mean you write what you know, but then the more you know about it, you suddenly realize you want to devote your life to it. And I think what really got me in 'Different Loving' was just going back and reading all these nineteenth century source documents about what people originally said and how they studied homosexuality, or transgenderism, or fetishism, or what they later called sadomasochism; and their theories were completely kooky. And yet based on those kooky theories the psychiatric community has held sexual minorities in this death grip of disapproval for a hundred years. You know? So the more I learned, and the more I wrote, and the more I researched, the more hooked I became, and then I felt like well if I'm going to be a sex expert, I'm going to read everything I possibly can, and that's really what I did for like ten years.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow so you went all in for sure.   Gloria Brame:             I went all in and I didn't write any books during that time.   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting. So now what are the types of organizations or publications that are reaching out to you that are looking to quote you as a sex expert?   Gloria Brame:             Well I've been very academically successful, I've been incredibly successful in my practice, and my first book 'Different Loving' really set me up as an expert in that particular field; in a field where very few people except for pro-doms for a long time were really- most people were not comfortable admitting they were into it. And I was totally out of the closet since 1991 under my real name and everything. And I had a degree. One of the reasons I went back to school and got a degree in sex is because I felt that it would lend more authority to the books that I write.   Jenn T Grace:              I was actually going to ask you that question.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah, you know it's like okay this is just a kinky, poly, bi woman who's writing everything from her perspective, as opposed to oh this is somebody with a PhD in the subject. And I felt that definitely enhanced my ability to get my message out, and I really- I'm not entirely sure how my name has gotten out that much except that I've always positioned myself from the start as somebody who knew a lot about BDSM, and from there it grew, and I have always kept a high profile on the Internet, or as high a profile as a private person can.   Jenn T Grace:              As far as your high profile status, or trying to still have a low profile but being really heavily involved on the Internet, if you were to look back at what you were doing- because I feel like we have technology also kind of complicating things, but also enhancing things at the same time. So the fact that you had started an online group in 1987 is so amazing because it shows how in a sense cutting edge you were then. So have you been I guess keeping up with, or leveraging, or taking advantage of just the wide world of information that's out there right now. Has that helped you?   Gloria Brame:             The main thing of course- and this is where writers really fall down on the job, and a lot of artists, because they don't understand the Internet. Although I don't think that's going to be a problem to anybody under the age of 35 anymore, but I would say consistency and it's fluidity because in the early 1990's I hosted this- I was teaching classes for Netscape. Now does anyone even remember what Netscape was?   Jenn T Grace:              I do.   Gloria Brame:             You know it was the router that everybody used in the 1990's that was crappy and went away. So but at the time they thought they were going to take over the world, they thought they were going to be what turned out to be Google or something, and they had classes. So I was the first person to teach online BDSM, you know what I mean? A few years later Netscape was gone, then AOL merged with another platform, and again a lack of at the time people who had academic credentials to back up their expertise in BDSM. And then we jump ahead to blogs, and then you jump ahead to Facebook and LinkedIn. So I have a consistent presence on every new media platform, or every new platform that has emerged really since 1987.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow I feel like that's impressive.   Gloria Brame:             I tried Myspace, totally not for me. Totally not for a sexologist adult. But you know places like Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter, I consider essential. And Pinterest. I mean you have to be where there are going to be readers, and I think part of why I have a good reputation is I've also always offered a lot of free content.   Jenn T Grace:              Which is totally key in building a personal brand, is the more content that you put out there for free, and dripping it out to people when you have something that is paid for, I feel like you're going to have a higher likelihood of people wanting to buy from you because you've been giving away so long.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah and my goals as a writer because I used to teach creative writing, was to get myself locked onto routines and disciplines, things that I did every day. One of the hardest things for me was when blogging first emerged, to actually have something to say every day. You know I felt like, 'Oh my God.' You know or even something to say three times a week it felt overwhelming. So for a while like I switched to an all visual blog, after like a couple years of trying to write something new for my blog every day, it became impossible. So I switched to all visual, but by being all visual and being a sex person, I got banned like on all the search engines.   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting.   Gloria Brame:             So I learned my lesson. And now I've switched back to commentary, but now I use my blog- I would say 50% to 60% to promote my books.   Jenn T Grace:              And how often are you blogging? And what is it about? Have you found a new routine that seems to be working for you right now?   Gloria Brame:             I have. My routine is I now share with the public what I did for those ten years of not writing, which was I used to track every single new sex study, and I would take like post-graduate education modules online in sex, and so I was keeping up with everything. I still read the sex news every single day, I just got into the habit. So now I share on my blog. And sometimes really it's just a link. Like today there was a historic event in transgender history in the Philippines. Geraldine Romano, a trans woman, was elected to a Congressional office in Manila. So like that's a big thing. So something like that, all I need to say is congratulations. But there's always something that keeps people coming back to my blog, and of course to the right of my blog are links to my various books, and lots and lots of content to keep people there if they want to stick around.   Jenn T Grace:              And are you finding that Google has been good to you now with the amount of information that you have on your website in terms of ranking high?   Gloria Brame:             Yeah I actually had to write to them and all of that, but I got McAfee to take me off their banned website list.   Jenn T Grace:              Oh wow.   Gloria Brame:             And that was really important.   Jenn T Grace:              That's a big thing.   Gloria Brame:             Because you couldn't read me in other countries. I'm still banned in some countries, but that's okay. It's the nature of my work. When you're writing sex books, and talking frankly about sex, and you're not coming from a heteronormative perspective, you should expect to encounter pushback and censorship.   Jenn T Grace:              Now how does that play out on Amazon for example? Do you have any pushback or problems with them carrying your books?   Gloria Brame:             No, not so much on Amazon. I really don't. I haven't had any problems. You know again, I think some of it has to do with your credentials. I'm really grateful I have the credentials, that's all I can say. You know I'm really glad that I'm so nerdy that I could stand going back to school at age forty and getting a degree in something.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah.   Gloria Brame:             Because the payoff is that I do think that mainstream media are always going to be more comfortable with somebody who has the PhD or Dr before their name, or some kind of impressive to them credential, whether you're the founder of something, or whatever it is. And that's how my name has spread I think.   Jenn T Grace:              Do you think that that was partly why McAfee was willing to take you off their black list so to speak?   Gloria Brame:             It was, I'm sure of it. I was able to say, "Look go to my site." You know I stopped running the images, and I went back to just talking about it, and I said, "Well please look at the totality of my site. I'm a sex therapist and yes, I talk about frank things in frank language, and there it is." And they de-demonized me. They unblocked me.   Jenn T Grace:              I feel like that's a victory. Yeah that's a big one.   Gloria Brame:             That is a big one. But again, you know if the women and men listening to this are planning to do let's say erotic fiction for which they don't need any kind of degree because it's all about your creativity, but if you're doing that kind of- it's going to be hard to get noticed and branded.   Jenn T Grace:              And now-   Gloria Brame:             Whereas if you write self-help books you might be able to do without the degree.   Jenn T Grace:              I was going to say- yeah my audience is definitely more of the nonfiction side of things who might be writing some kind of self-help book rather than some fiction-related stuff.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah. So I would say that part of branding is making sure that people associate you with what you do, and not just erotic writer which is- but like something more specific like Queen of the Lovology Institute- pardon me, I think there is a Lovology Institute. But you know, something like that, something that is memorable.   Jenn T Grace:              So they think your name and they think exactly, very specifically what you do so that way they can find you when they're looking for you online.   Gloria Brame:             Right you know there are plenty of my peers, and colleagues are sexologists, but I always put that out there. Because it's not that common a word but it turns out to be a word that everybody sort of understands.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah.   Gloria Brame:             And sort of like they're involved in sex but it isn't too dirty because they're helping people.   Jenn T Grace:              I know you throw 'ologist' onto anything and it seems like it works.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah.   Jenn T Grace:              Do you think that if somebody were to be starting to do something even remotely similar to what you're doing now without having that PhD that they may encounter any type of resistance like you faced earlier on? Or do you think some of that's been a little bit lifted.   Gloria Brame:             Well it depends on where you go. Like for example I'm very, very frequently quoted but when I've tried to get 'The Truth about Sex' published, no mainstream publisher wanted to touch it because they felt that it was just too far out. They felt it was too far out for me, and this was like back in 2010 or 2011 to be saying that sexual diversity was normal. You know? And they felt- at least one place, that had marketing- at a place that had formerly published me said, "I can't sell a dominatrix in today's environment." Whatever that meant. You know because I've never hidden that I'm involved in BDSM as a topic. So it depends on what you're selling. If you're a lesbian and you find a sympathetic lesbian editor who wants to publish articulate books, you know about the lesbian experience, you may not experience any pushback. But if you go someplace mainstream and they're like, "Oh well we already had two lesbians this year," you know what I mean? You may experience marginalization, pushback, people not really taking you that seriously, and for me since all of my stuff is like cutting edge, you know I feel lucky that I actually got my first book through a big publisher. And in recent years I just moved to self-publishing.   Jenn T Grace:              I was just going to ask you about that. So when the big publisher shuts the door in your face, the solution is to self-publish. Can you just talk a little bit about that experience compared to the traditional publishing experience?   Gloria Brame:             There are a lot of great things about self-publishing and there are a lot of great things about commercial publishing. I don't want to discourage people because the bigger money usually is to be made in big publishing, although again I'll note 'Fifty Shades of Gray' I think started out as a self-published 'Twilight' fanfic and I believe sold enough copies on Amazon that it got a publisher interested. That happens once in a blue moon, but it does happen. Mainly the advantages of going with a commercial publisher are very simply- and you need an agent to get into a commercial publisher by the way, because I operate only with an intellectual property lawyer, I don't have an agent anymore. Fired them, too. You have to have an agent, an agent takes 20% of your money, all your money. The advance, residuals, everything.   Jenn T Grace:              How about services that you provide, or other products?   Gloria Brame:             Right that they provide. But they can get you into- they'll know who to send your manuscript to, hopefully they'll know the right people to show your manuscript to, and they have an in with those people so those people will actually read your manuscript. So if you send a manuscript in blind, you may never get read. You'll never get higher maybe than a reader for the editor who is a grad student or something like that. You know? But if you can get through in commercial publishing, they'll do all your publicity, they'll create your publicity campaign, they'll tell you where to show up, they'll sign you up for any book signings and readings, they'll do all of that. They'll do all of the backend work on copywrite and production. You may not even get a choice in the book cover they slap on you, but maybe. You know and they take all of that stuff, all the financial end, and the creative end of production, and they do it all for you. So basically you submit your manuscript and other than having to re-edit it to their like several times, you kind of work for them once they pay you for your book. With- and you also have your best chance, finally the most important thing is distribution. They distribute your book across the country, and make sure it gets on Amazon. If they like it enough they'll really push it harder and try to get book sellers interested.   Jenn T Grace:              So in your experience, the 20% that the agent would take, did it seem worth it for at least the ones that have gone through that traditional publishing route?   Gloria Brame:             Yes, it does. You may not be happy if you're not seeing a big number and what you end up with is really not that great, and then you may really resent 20%, but overall the value of getting into a commercial publisher, you know there are many positive things about it. Unfortunately there's also a tremendous downside to commercial publishing. And the first downside of course is that it's very hard to get a book published, and even when you do, if they tell you to change it, you have to change it. And my first book, 'Different Loving' was really censored, and at the time I accepted it and I don't think I would today.   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting. And how much did it take away from what you were talking about from that censorship standpoint? Did it like really dilute the message that you were trying to convey?   Gloria Brame:             I don't think it diluted the message itself, but it definitely diluted what the sexuality was about and how extreme it could get. Because they made us remove a chapter on people who into some really edgy, edgy play. And anywhere there was really edgy play, they wanted it to go. So to somebody who's in BDSM that edgy, edgy play didn't seem that edgy, but to straight people it scared the bejesus out of them. So- and lawyers said, "You know we're going to see a million lawsuits on this, and blah, blah, blah."   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting.   Gloria Brame:             So we let them cut us down, and you know the basic message is this stuff's okay, and then we just weren't able to include all of the interview material and that was kind of sad. And one chapter had to go on edge play. So you know that was sad, but then I found even when I wrote a very mainstream book called, 'Come Hither,' which was like a basic introduction to the community, and how you can tell if you're kinky, and it was really like a fun book for couples who were talking about kink together. Even there, you know with a different publisher, and even though they signed up with me because I had written 'Different Loving.' You know they really reigned it in, and their PR plan for me fell apart when the editor and then the head of PR left. New people came in, and they didn't really care about my book. So that's the peril of being at a big house, is that even when you land that contract, in the end you may not see the money you were expecting because if they pay you up front you have to earn it back in sales. And not a lot of books earn back their advances; that's why publishing is in shitty shape. You know it's very hard for them to make profits these days on book sales. And with self-publishing you have total intellectual freedom, and total creativity, it can be the book you wanted to write, but the downside is you have to do everything yourself. You know if you sign up with like- the place I signed up with actually treats me like a publisher not a vanity press. In other words I don't pay them anything and they do things for me because I was a known entity and they felt they could sell my books. So my deal with them is 50/50 profits. I don't invest anything, and they don't charge me anything, and we share profits 50/50 down the line from the day the book starts selling. I pick the cover, they do the copywrite stuff in the background, I have to do all my own marketing.   Jenn T Grace:              Interesting. So they'll take care of all the logistics if you will.   Gloria Brame:             They take care of all the logistics. This particular company works with you if you can submit a cover, they can suggest a cover, they have volumes and volumes of clip art, they can design with you or use your designs. They will also make sure to file for all the important copywrite and ISBN data for your book, they do all of that stuff.   Jenn T Grace:              And do you find that there are-   Gloria Brame:             And they get it on Amazon, they get it on all of the online book stores, Barnes and Noble, and they do a digital version as well.   Jenn T Grace:              Do you find that there are a lot of companies similar to what they're offering? Is this kind of a new- it's not even really a new frontier but you know what I mean.   Gloria Brame:             It's not even a new frontier, no. There are lots of places and the degree of your own autonomy there is according to place. Like I believe some sites you have to fill out all the paperwork and you're just using them to print your book literally. You know? Or you can go to Amazon which I believe now has its own print-to-vision for authors, and you can work directly with Amazon and make sure it gets on Amazon automatically. Or you can use a service where you would pay a nominal fee like $300 to $1,000 depending on the level of service, and they give you a la carte services like, 'Well we'll do this, and we'll do that, you can pick all the way up to- we'll give you a fancy cover design.'   Jenn T Grace:              So are there other benefits to the self-publishing road other than what you described?   Gloria Brame:             Well for me I prefer it because A) I will always write niche books. In other words I doubt I'll ever have- my books will have ever have universal appeal even though my blog may. Because you know on my blog I write about women's sexual health, and just everything that is newsworthy in the field of sex. But my books are really pretty specific to a more queer, and then sometimes BDSM perspective.   Jenn T Grace:              So knowing what you've been talking about, for somebody who- maybe they're just starting out, and they're just trying to figure out the lay of the land for how they can make their name synonymous like we were talking about before with what it is they do. What do you think the number one thing, or the first step that would be worthwhile for them to take, into really kind of building their online community, which is what you have. It seems like you have a really big online community.   Gloria Brame:             First I would recommend before they go to their blog, is that they start building their social networking platform that they believe will be a great place to promote any free content they're going to be doing. So like if they're going to be posting covers of their book, they want to have a Pinterest board. Like I have a Pinterest- in addition to all my sex history, and [Inaudible 00:30:05] pictures, and kittens, of course there must be cats. But I mean in addition to all of that I have a board devoted to 'Different Loving,' you know a Pinterest board. And all my book covers as I'm designing the book, or any pictures of people who are in the book, or anything like that goes on that board, so that's one place. I have a Tumblr account, all my blog posts go there. My blog posts auto-post to a Facebook fan page which is dedicated only to my work. My LinkedIn page which is dedicated only to my work; I will not use LinkedIn anymore for chat or even for networking because I didn't find that it did a damn thing for me.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah for your industry.   Gloria Brame:             But what does do a thing for me is when I post a blog post as an article on LinkedIn, you know? In other words just making sure that word of my free content appears everywhere, and on Twitter. And there's a program you can use called www.IFTTT.com.   Jenn T Grace:              Yes I've heard of that before.   Gloria Brame:             Okay.   Jenn T Grace:              How are you using it?   Gloria Brame:             I use IFTTT and I advise it for anybody who wants to get writing and news of their books out in a very targeted way. IFTTT is an online software program that allows you to automatically re-post your post from let's say Twitter, or from your blog, to all of your other social media. And they actually have a much wider range of social media platforms than I ever use because I'm not on everything, you know? But you could probably use it to- if you're on everything you can- you just set it up one time and then every time you post on a particular place, that particular content will go out to ninety social media platforms. And you may only get one or two hits on some of them, but it's worth it.   Jenn T Grace:              It's still exposure, right? It's still getting your message out.   Gloria Brame:             It's exposure and you keep doing it, and you can't really rely on other people these days to promote you, or that a single promotion in any one place is really going to change your life. It's just not like that anymore because the Internet is drowning in content.   Jenn T Grace:              So as the Internet is drowning in content, how do you think the best way to stand out in this kind of flood of information? Have you found any particular way that seems to work for you?   Gloria Brame:             Well I find that- I've shifted a lot. I mean I'm constantly adapting. Like the reason I ended up with IFTTT was that I just spent a year casually just sort of browsing media impact on my numbers. You know? Just sort of watching to see what was more effective, what seemed to get more hits to my website, where was I selling more books? And I found like Twitter was useful for that, so whereas I used to use Twitter for the usual kind of banter that people get into, or personal things. I never got into what was for lunch, but you know what I mean. Yeah just like random comments on Twitter. I stopped that completely. I only use Twitter now as a promotional tool for my free content and my work. Period. No chatter, no nothing. Because I think that in such a busy world people really need to know who you are, and what your identity is. It's like you know Kim Kardashian, what's her brand really? Well it's being Kim Kardashian but I think it's having insane outfits and always looking perfectly coiffed. You know? Or deliberately looking great when she's disheveled too.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah.   Gloria Brame:             So I mean it's all about looking good.   Jenn T Grace:              So what I'm hearing, and you're saying that you're using Twitter to put out content, it's not always asking for something- for people in return. You're just saying, "Here is my free information."   Gloria Brame:             You know like when I say 50% to 60% promotes my stuff, like today I'm writing a thought piece on redefining BDSM that's going to go up on my blog a little later this afternoon. And there were opportunities because they were relevant, opportunities to talk about an opinion that I had in one of my books on this subject. You see what I mean? So I'm not doing a big promotion for my book, I'm not going to include a big picture of my book, or anything like, but among the various things that I'm linking to including other people's articles and thoughts, I'm including a link for my book.   Jenn T Grace:              Yes I think that's the key.   Gloria Brame:             I feel that in exchange for getting people to see that there's a link to my book, they're getting five or six paragraphs of provocative reading that they don't have to pay for.   Jenn T Grace:              Yes. Yeah I think that's the key. So you're not telling people to just go out there and start spamming people saying how great your book is, you're giving valuable content that's related to what your book is providing, and everyone's winning because you're giving out stuff. You've spent time and energy writing, and writing well, that you want people to see that free content, which then just gets your name in front of them more often.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah, you know I'm sixty years old, I'm like a different generation and I'm really uncomfortable praising myself. I'm really uncomfortably going and saying, "I'm the greatest-" you know whatever I may think at home with people who love me and forgive me, whatever flights of fancy my ego may take here. I think it's really rude, and crass, and ugly when people just get up and start telling you how fucking fantastic they are.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah for real.   Gloria Brame:             You know it's just like- and who's the judge of that? You and your mother?   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah. There needs to be a balance for sure.   Gloria Brame:             So I don't do that. I mean I do believe that my work contains important stuff, or relevant stuff, or fun- whatever my books contain, I will push the content, but I'll push the content by showing rather than claiming, if you know what I mean. I'll give them some content to show what I'm talking about. However that said, I will say that on Twitter, I don't know if it's not a hit on my blog, but on Twitter and on my Facebook fan page they like getting promotions. People respond positively to promotions. They don't on LinkedIn, not nearly as much.   Jenn T Grace:              You're paying attention to your audience. I think that's so important is that you're not just splattering it.   Gloria Brame:             So seeing that people will like or even love when I create- I create a lot of funny ads for my book, so I'll create a funny ad and even there I hope it's not just 'go and buy my book,' but 'here's something that will make you giggle, and please buy my book.' Or 'here's an excerpt from my book, don't you want to read more?' That kind of thing.   Jenn T Grace:              That makes a lot of sense.   Gloria Brame:             And I don't do it a lot, I do it a couple times a week because I have seven books that I really want to sell.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah so we're already getting over forty minutes here so I would love to have you spend a couple of minutes just talking about your new book that you were mentioning, and letting everyone know where they can find more information about you since we're really kind of talking about your community, and all the places that you are. I'd love for people to be able to know exactly how to follow you should they want to.   Gloria Brame:             Well I'm really easy to find, just Gloria Brame into Google and you can find me on Facebook and Twitter or www.GloriaBrame.com and once you get to my website you'll see my blog link and you can subscribe to it, or you can- anything that goes on my blog goes out to social media, so if you follow me @DrGloriaBrame you'll see links to all of my free content. Now the new book, I wasn't sure if I wanted to ever write a sequel to 'Different Loving' to be honest, because it was an enormous, enormous task and it took three people almost three years to write that book.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow.   Gloria Brame:             So I couldn't do that now, I couldn't commit three to six years. One of our collaborators died in the interim, et cetera, et cetera. But what I did want to do is I really got interested some years ago about doing like what happens to people after they've been in the scene for twenty years? Because I first got involved in like 1985 or 1986, now it's 2016, I'm still involved in my community to some degree. I don't really appear many places anymore, I don't attend conferences much because I'm older and I have my BDSM community in my home with my partners. But so I've evolved enormously even in terms of how I play, or how I live. One of my partners is a woman, you know that was kind of unexpected, I thought I would be partnered with men. So you know things really changed and I really wanted to know how things changed in the lives of other players, and I was in touch with- I don't know about a half dozen or more of the original interviewees over the years, hooked up on Facebook. So I decided that was the place to start. I was going to start not by trying to look at the overwhelming phenomenon of BDSM online that has completely transformed our community, but first to go and see how many of the old interviewees I could find twenty years later. And I found about twenty of them which was awesome.   Jenn T Grace:              How many were in the original?   Gloria Brame:             The original was like sixty or seventy that appeared in the book.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow that's a good percentage, yeah.   Gloria Brame:             And for this one I actually found more, I found 25 but some people had withdrawn, a number of people had died, and some people just didn't want to be in this book. They were living very different lives and they didn't want to be defined as BDSM publicly anymore. So I added to those nineteen, twelve people who hadn't been in the book who were a lot younger, but who also had been at least- had at least twenty years' experience. And so our youngest participant was a woman of 37 who started out when she was 17. And I decided that the best way to chronicle like what had changed in the BDSM world- because that was the real question, is where are we as a community now 25 years later, was to chronicle it through individual stories. So I did in-depth interviews with 31 different people across all of the orientations; trans people, trans men, trans women, gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and straight people. And then I went and I did on Facebook general community surveys where I asked like 200 BDSM friends to contribute their answers to a range of questions on BDSM subjects. And that was like my research base; using those interviews and then all of the rafts of community dialogues as I called them about different subjects like what does consent mean to you, or what's your bottom line in a relationship, or what have you learned? I asked everybody I interviewed in depth, 'What would you say now to the person you were 25 years ago after everything you've learned?' And then from there I just treated it like a sexologist by looking at some of the science that submerged in the twenty years, how the culture has changed in the twenty years, how growing acceptance of sexual diversity means that we couldn't even count the number of people in the BDSM worlds if we counted like every fetishist out there, et cetera, et cetera. So that's really what the book is about. It brings 'Different Loving' circa 1993 into the 21st century.   Jenn T Grace:              It sounds fascinating.   Gloria Brame:             Where we now- what has the journey been like, what's our real history, with some predictions of mine on what future sex will be like.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow that sounds really interesting. So if somebody were interested would it make sense, or would you still recommend that they read the first one and then read the second one?   Gloria Brame:             You know it really depends on the person. You know if they're a BDSM-er they probably want to start with number one, and then go to number two. If they're coming to BDSM as scholars or just people who have friends involved who are just kind of interested in it, DL Too is the 21st century of BDSM. So it's kind of like do you want the whole historical perspective? Because the original volume really goes into the history- like I'll have a chapter on bondage and then we look back to ancient practices, and what people have written about BDSM, what they had written about it in the seventeenth century, and the nineteenth century, and so forth. The new book is definitely rooted and based in the 21st century.   Jenn T Grace:              Wow.   Gloria Brame:             And it's a look back at where we were and where we are.   Jenn T Grace:              It sounds really interesting just from the historical standpoint of it, just to get a lesson.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah it's really cool to me because I feel it's- I mean the next best thing to a real longitudinal study, which has never been done. You know I mean it's just never been done that you look at this particular sexual population and then you come back to them twenty years later, and interview many of the same people, and find out how massively their lives have changed without their sexual orientation changing.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah, wow that's so interesting.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah I mean a lot of them are just doing all new things, things they weren't doing, and many of them have partners they never expected to have.   Jenn T Grace:              Yourself included, right?   Gloria Brame:             I can't tell you- like a lot of people have become poly, something that would have been really out of the box twenty years ago.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah this is really interesting. I have a client who does a lot of work in terms of education around the poly community, so I think that she would love this book, so I'm certainly going to send her to your website. She probably already knows about you for all I know.   Gloria Brame:             Yeah one of my favorite interviews was a woman who had been married like two or three times, and they'd all failed, and she was really depressed, but she also had this secret life as a spanking fetishist. She had done movies as a spanking fetishist. Well- and that was her interview, was based on she's this star of spanking fetish movies back in the 1990's. But now when I meet her in 2015 I guess was when I spoke with her, you know she couldn't find anyone, she couldn't find anyone, she finally said, "That's it, I'm done with straight marriages." And then she met a man and his female partner and she fell in love with both of them.   Jenn T Grace:              That's awesome.   Gloria Brame:             And now they're a three way marriage. They found a place to get married as a three, as a triad. And she said, "I never would have imagined I could be this happy. Who knew?"   Jenn T Grace:              That's so nice to hear, right?   Gloria Brame:             I mean she vaguely knew she was bisexual, or so she thought until she fell in love with a woman. So you know, people's lives- I think that once you allow yourself to be sexually free, that you know, the potentials for your life are just genuinely transformed.   Jenn T Grace:              I think it's just trying to not put yourself in a box or feel the need to label yourself, which is something the LGBT community certainly struggles with in a lot of ways.   Gloria Brame:             Correct. You know?   Jenn T Grace:              Wow so for folks-   Gloria Brame:             It's funny because the blog piece I'm writing today is about I'm tired of people defining BDSM as bondage and discipline, dominance and sub- you know because actually most people, I don't even know how many people still even do bondage and discipline. People have moved on, they've evolved, you know? And the reality was, is while it was a very politically effective acronym to use, you know because it seemed to unite us, you know millions of us don't do any of the stuff in that thing, and being defined- as the gay rights movement knows, being defined by the things you do in bed sends a really creepy message.   Jenn T Grace:              Absolutely.   Gloria Brame:             As opposed to who you really are as people. You know or your right to have dignity and equal rights in society.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah labels do us a disservice.   Gloria Brame:             So I think even there, I mean we're still growing.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah, absolutely. I feel like this interview has been so good because I feel like just having such a historical context for even social media, you're bringing so many very perspectives to us, and also just knowing about your book. So for people who- I know that you had given your website, is there a different place to send people to get your books, or still just straight to your website directly?   Gloria Brame:             I have a shop on my site but of course the cheapest option is Amazon, and you can just type Gloria Brame into Amazon and hopefully my author's page will come up with- oh that's another place every writer should be of course, is have your own author's page on Amazon, have your own author's page on Goodreads.   Jenn T Grace:              Yes absolutely.   Gloria Brame:             So I have an author's page with a bio and a picture of me with a flower I believe, looking very mature and professional.   Jenn T Grace:              That's awesome.   Gloria Brame:             And there it is. I would appreciate and love if your listeners would support my work because I'm out there.   Jenn T Grace:              Absolutely. Been putting yourself out there for a while. Well I sincerely appreciate your time today, this has been great and I'm sure my listeners are going to love this.   Gloria Brame:             Thanks so much Jenn, it was a great interview.   Jenn T Grace:              Yeah thank you so much.   Gloria Brame:             Alrighty.   Jenn T Grace:              Thank you for listening to today's podcast. If there are any links from today's show that you are interested in finding, save yourself a step and head on over to www.JennTGrace.com/thepodcast. And there you will find a backlog of all of the past podcast episodes including transcripts, links to articles, reviews, books, you name it. It is all there on the website for your convenience. Additionally if you would like to get in touch with me for any reason, you can head on over to the website and click the contact form, send me a message, you can find me on Facebook, LinkedIn and Twitter all at JennTGrace. And as always I really appreciate you as a listener, and I highly encourage you to reach out to me whenever you can. Have a great one, and I will talk to you in the next episode.  

So I got to The Kitty where I've been playing house for the last two years and a bit, and the DJ before me told me they've changed the music brief: more commercial after 9.30pm. Well I've never been shy of dropping commercial tracks and mixes into my sets before, but I wasn't prepared for an all commercial set. So I pivoted hard dancey nu disco / house where I was meant to play french house and nordic space discoe, towards even a few sections of droppy EDM in this set. Might not be what you expect from my sets, but I'll play just about anything (see my party sets), so if you feel like an up tempo dance-y GenErik set, this might be your thing. It also has an odd curve. I lost the first two hours to a technical error (thanks Traktor DJ never fixing their search bug), so it starts hard, dips as the holiday crowd dissipates, then picks back up as a rush of punters show up an hour before my set ends and demands to dance (around where In Da Club shows up). It was a fun rollercoaster of a night really as I got thrown for a loop.

Well I've been hyping it for a few weeks and it is finally here! The Dave Kerzner Special, complete with interesting chat about Dave's company, Sonic Reality, working with notables such as Genesis and Alan Parsons, and of course, his various musical projects Sound of Contact, the Dave Kerzner Band, and Mantra Vega! We'll also be playing a lot of great music from those projects along the way! So don't miss it!As always, send questions, suggestions or comments to progsquatch@gmail.com. You can also follow the Squatch on Twitter (@ProgSquatch) or visit our Prog-Watch Facebook page. If you follow on Twitter or like the Facebook page, you can see the Daily Classic album---a fun little feature which the Squatch sends out six days each week! (Squatches rest on Sundays!)And if you haven't yet, check out the website Progwatch.com! Lots of great stuff there from our previous seasons!

CONTENT NOTES "​Well I've had the pleasure of hanging out at Facebook the past few years. It's definitely a different relationship that you have with your patients and it definitely gives me the advantage to really focus on patient care because I don't have to deal with the business aspects of running a clinic.” - Daniel Lord, DC. Find out what Daniel has discovered... IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL LEARN: - How Facebook takes care of their employees with in-house integrated medical care that delivers a well rounded approach to caring for the individual. - Employees love this perk so much that many of them say that they won’t work anywhere else. - Daniel’s number 1 common problem that he treats is BACK-PAIN because people sit and work at computers all day. - Daniel wants to teach his patients how they be the “CEO of their own Health." - Eliminating pain is important but so is preventing it from returning! - There is a “super-market” of choices for patients, how do you choose which solution to solve your problem? - Many developing countries don’t have the same back-pain problems modernized countries do, find out why. - Something you can do right now to help yourself: "abdominal contraction of 20% on, at all times." - Daniel has a short list of electronic and physical gadgets/tools that he loves and help people be healthier while they work; Lumo Lift, Posture Shirts, Fluid Stance and the Topo Anti-fatigue Mat. Listen to the podcast and learn why. TIPS: Check them out at http://lhdiet.com/lhd019 LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE: Check them out at http://lhdiet.com/lhd019 GIVEAWAY Sign up for the Lumo Lift Posture and Activity Tracker Giveaway at: http://lhdiet.com/lhd019 TAKEAWAY There is so much great actionable content in this episode, but the big takeaway is simple; There are so many choices available to treat your ailments, aches and pains, but it all starts with you being an active, informed participant in your health journey. We all need to be The CEOs of our own Health.

Well I've finally cut episode 43! Everything is coming to an end so shit is crazy hectic lately. But the move and transition is only 3 weeks away, and then hopefully we can get these shows going again. We started the show with that ALS challenge. Which by now I think is pretty obsolete. But man....it was HUGE when we did it. Shows how long ago we did this show. So it's been a crazy news time lately. We talk about all of the rioting going on. Ahhhhh....that takes me back to the LA days! Jess does her news stories, which include National Topless Day. Why isn't every day topless day? OBAMA!!!! We talk about the Napa earthquake, which is a complete tragedy. I mean, I don't really care about the damage to buildings....but all that awesome wine destroyed forever....terrible! Jess talks about pickpocketing bees and tape worms. We talk about the Mexican CEO who changed his company to a 4 day work week, and says it's the best thing ever!  Jess has a huge storm roll through, and you can hear crazy thunder throughout the show. Sounds like Armageddon going off. We touch on the beheadings that are unfortunate going on in the news, and how these barbarians need to be dealt with. And we finish the show discussing a friend Jess and I met, who happens to be a gay pastor. We discuss if we could go to a church where the pastor is gay. This will probably be the last show for a bit. Once the dust settles with everything, we'll be back. But probably will be a little different of a show. As always, thanks to those of you who have listened despite the hiccups we're currently having.

Hey there kids, do you like candy? Well I've got some candy right here for you... ear candy, in podcast form for your enjoyment.  In our first delicious segment, Patrick sits down with Daan, who just finished Pikmin 3. You'll get the lowdown on Miyamoto's latest garden strategy simulator. Secondly, Alex and Dave break down the New Super Mario Bros. series in detail. What's the best game in the series? Has it gotten stale? Will there ever be good music? And finally, Neal, Scott, and Andy discuss gaming with kids. It's something us older folks find fascinating, probably because we're old. Don't forget to send your listener mail to us at connectivity@nintendoworldreport.com. And if you've got a moment, please rate and the review show on iTunes.

dBPony LYRICS: I've waited far too long for my one moment to shine To show them all that I'm not like the other pegasi But you are told that you are not what they expected "If you cannot push your limits how do you expect to lead them?" In the end you will finally realize I can see it in your eyes Count your stars and all your dreams And take off to the skies Shut out all of your doubts And forget what you've been told This is what it'll take To be a Wonderbolt So you all think you've got what it takes to be elite fliers huh? Yeah! Well uh... Well I've got news for you. You don't. If you had what if took you already would've been a Wonderbolt! YES MA'AM! So many times I've tried to show that I'm a leader Pulled my head out from the clouds to show them all I'm not a dreamer Speeding out just to be ahead We've been pushing everyone back in the dust We showed them all. They've been outdone You took too long to see it how could you be so blind If you're going to be reckless, you can leave your dreams behind Follow your ambitions and do it your own way You'll never see the light if you can't clear it for today