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In this week's Dukect Lounge I Review the final night of AEW Fyter Fest. Will the team of Private Party finally get gold from the tandem of Page/Omega or at least the 15 bucks Page owes them. Will the Bad Boy Joey Janela survive his against his biggest challenge yet or will Lance Archer take down another Soul. Also since the show, Stargirl is getting a season 2 not on DC universe app but on the CW is this finally the death kneel for the DC App that could? Well I'll talk about that and more here in the Lounge

What can shift anxiety, depression, overwhelm, or simply feeling “down” - into feeling good, or even great? What are the hidden obstacles that get in the way? When it comes to improving your inner world, there are some things that consistently work. And there are other things that might help, but that aren’t nearly as effective. With more than 40 years of experience, Dr. David Burns, author of Feeling Good, returns to the show to reveal how his new “TEAM” approach helps you feel good - no matter what’s happening in your world. With examples from how he’s treated severe depression, anxiety, and PTSD - you’ll get a sense of how to eradicate your negative thoughts - and any resistance that's getting in the way. David Burns’s new book, Feeling Great, will be released this coming September. If you want to listen to our first episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to apply his work in relationships (based on his book Feeling Good Together), here is a link to Episode 98: How to Stop Being a Victim - Feeling Good Together - with David Burns If you want to listen to our second episode together, where David Burns and I spoke about how to recognize and deal with cognitive distortions, here is a link to Episode 133: Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life - Cognitive Distortions with David Burns And, as always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you.  Join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!  Sponsors: Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources:  Check out Dr. David Burns's website Read David’s classic books, Feeling Good or Ten Days To Self-Esteem Pre-Order David’s newest book: Feeling Great - The Revolutionary New Treatment for Depression and Anxiety FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide www.neilsattin.com/feelinggood3 Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with David Burns Visit neilsattin.com/support or text "SUPPORT" to 33444 to support the podcast. Every little bit helps! Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: David Burns: I had created - and we need to upgrade it a lot, an electronic version of my brief mood survey that patients can take at the start and end of every therapy session, plus rate the therapist: on empathy helpfulness, were there feelings that you were hiding, did you have trouble being honest? filling out the survey? And so we have before beginning and end of session, rating on relationship satisfaction, depression, anxiety, anger, happiness, suicidal urges - and although the tool needs to be improved a lot, they sent me the data from 9000 therapy sessions. David Burns: And so I've always loved statistical modeling and the kind of modeling, I do - Analysis of moment structures or structural equation modeling - requires big "Ns". And I've never had a database this big... It's kind of overwhelming like being a kid in a candy store. So I was able to... First off, just to replicate a lot of findings from 10-20 years ago, when I was working with smaller databases like maybe 500 patients from my clinic in Philadelphia, 100 and 70 patients from the Stanford in-patient unit which are relatively small. But I was able to replicate almost everything and the data is just the cleanest data set that I've ever seen and it's just full of correlational findings and potential causal findings as well. So I feel like we're seeing for the first time kind of like the anatomy of psychotherapy that's never been seen before. The veins, the arteries, the muscles, the tendons and how it works. So I can begin answering really, really basic questions, like, if you wanna have high patient satisfaction, what are the variables that cause that in the session, what do you need to attend to, or what goes into therapeutic empathy? I published an article that everyone has ignored actually in the top psychology journal about probably 20 years ago called intimacy and depression. Is there a causal connection? Because the interpersonal therapists, make a big deal about the idea that depression is caused by problems in intimate relationships. Maybe this should be our podcast. Maybe we could start broadcasting. And I never really bought it but it had never been tested. And it's hard to test because you have to do something called non-recursive modeling which is the most difficult topic in statistics where things are circularly correlated. Neil Sattin: Right, I think I heard in a recent podcast episode of yours. Testing - do thoughts cause feelings, or do the feelings cause thoughts? David Burns: Chicken or the egg... exactly, that was just a little study I did with my Standford Data it had about an n of 100 but the findings were clear cut, so I did something like that with a much larger database, maybe a few hundred where we had depression, and relationship satisfaction scores at the start of therapy. I didn't measure as intensely every session at the start and end. It was just once a session. But we had it at the intake and 12 weeks later. And intimacy and depression were correlated minus.4 at both time points, which was similar to what you see in the literature, using different scales everyone seems to come up with about that number. So high depression, low relationship satisfaction and high relationship satisfaction, low depression at both time points - and then changes in depression were associated with changes in relationship satisfaction. And so, people interpret this, like the cognitive therapists say. Oh, that's because when you're depressed, it causes an impairment in love relationships because a variety of reasons - you feel worthless, you feel un-lovable, and you're very sensitive to criticism, and you feel like I have a self that's no good. And then the interpersonal therapist says, "No, you know we need love, to feel happy" - But none of those people has ever bothered to check it out. People in our field in general, pretty much everything that's said is false, 'cause people just talk, they say things that they wanna believe and came up with it themselves, so they think it must be true. And so in my study, we found that there are NO causal links in either direction, that have any particular meaning. There are tiny little causal links that are marginally statistically significant, but the magnitude of the causal link is so tiny that you couldn't possibly improve depression by improving relationship satisfaction - even a great deal, and that itself, it's almost impossible. And in addition, you couldn't possibly improve a troubled marriage by improving the depression or even curing both partners of depression. I knew it already, because when my book 10 days to self-esteem came out. I did a bunch of studies all around - pilot studies. It's a self-help thing for depression, and I had about 40 pilot studies. This should be, in your podcast, I think. Neil Sattin: I'm recording right now. David Burns: Oh, you are recording - Okay that's great. And what we saw was that in all of these groups, people started with my book 10 days to self-esteem and they were in these groups - there were no therapists president. It was just a self-help thing I was trying to create. And all the groups, people had dramatic improvements in their depression but... but in none of the groups did relationship satisfaction improve. At the beginning they were depressed with miserable marriages, and then at the end of the group, they were euphoric with miserable marriages. It just proves that there's no connection between these domains. Well, I had a chance to try to confirm that now with 9000 therapy sessions where we've got relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction is one variable, and depression or happiness. I measured happiness for the first time - as separate from depression. Happiness at the start and end of the session, depression at the start and end of the session. And the findings were exactly the same, and it was really thrilling. The correlation was similar, like -.3, which is a small correlation - 'cause the 3 times 3, is a 9, so there's only 9% overlap in depression and relationships, and relationship satisfaction or happiness and relationship satisfaction. I have to do that one. I could test that today. Does relationship satisfaction cause happiness or does happiness cause relationship satisfaction or both or either. After our call it'll take me a minute to answer that question. Neil Sattin: We can do a little footnote on this conversation with whatever you discover. David Burns: Right, but at any rate, it came out exactly the same - there are no meaningful causal relationships between them, and that's not a bad thing. Neil Sattin: Yeah, so what it leaves me wondering is, where are the major leverage points for what does cause either of those things? David Burns: Well, as I've said for years, all the causes of all psychological and interpersonal problems are totally unknown. And anyone who claims to know is just a con artist or a fool. It's just like before we knew the cause of polio there were thousands of theories and treatments for the last two or three thousand years - and everyone was sure that they knew - and it came out to be a virus and we got the Salk vaccine. We had the true answer. We can say with certainty that depression is triggered by negative thoughts, and that if you have a negative thought and believe it like "I'm no good" or "I'm a loser", then you're gonna be very unhappy. But what we don't know is why are some of us so prone to negative thinking and pessimism, and self-doubt, self-criticism. While others are maybe more outgoing and happy. And then there's a bell-shaped curve. Some of us, most of us are somewhere in between these extremes. That question we don't know the answer to, all we can say with certain... Is that all current theories are false, like the psychiatrists claim it's the chemical imbalance in the brain, and that's been... We proved that was false in 1975 at our laboratory, in Philadelphia in our depression research unit. We flooded the brains of depressed veterans with like 30, 50, 100 times boost in brain seratonin. And that's what the so-called chemical imbalance people fraudulently call seratonin the happy chemical. There's nothing in the literature that ever said it should have anything to do with mood. Somebody just made up the theory and then there was no change in the mood of the veterans, none whatsoever. And we published that in the top psychiatry journal and it was ignored for 25 years. Because the drug company people didn't wanna hear it. And recently, people are starting to quote it a lot. All these theories of causality. Nobody knows. You know, as Freud says, "Oh it's anger turned inwards, or something in childhood" and certain psycho-analytic type therapists, they believe these theories that have no research to confirm them. But the great news is we CAN help people tremendously with depression. My new book, I'll give a pump for it, "Feeling Great" - it should be able to be ordered on Amazon soon - it's coming out in September. We've got fantastic high speed techniques to cause depression to go away really fast. And that's all I care about. And then, why do people have relationship problems? My research indicates that blame is the major factor. The problem is not that your partner is to blame, the problem is that you're blaming them and not looking at your own role in the problem. And we've got ways if people want help with troubled relationships, which is generally not the case, we have tremendous techniques to help them. But anyway, that's just kind of quick - where I'm at. The TEAM-CBT that I have created, and it's now really out-performing cognitive therapy, at least in, in my hands, and those of a number of my colleagues. It emerged because of the research I was doing, a number of years ago when I was in practice. Why do some people get better fast, and others resist, or fail to improve? And I found out why that was- it has do with motivation and resistance. Something I scorned early in my career, thinking it was not important, that turned out to be incredibly important. And once we saw that we developed new high speed ways to boost motivation, and that has, and reduce resistance. The first time we meet with someone - and then that leads to amazingly rapid recovery. Neil Sattin: There are all sorts of thoughts that I'm having at this moment, that are interweaving with things that you've mentioned already in this conversation. So, I guess first... Well, I'm thinking about Emily Nagoski and her model for Human Sexuality, and what allows people to feel connected to who they are as a sexual being, and to their partner - and she talks about the dual control mechanism, which is basically what turns you on, and what turns you off, and being aware of those things. And so I'm hearing the parallel already in what you're offering in terms of what motivates you to change, and what resistances you have to change - your accelerator and your brakes. And I'm curious to know, for you, does willpower enter into the conversation at all? I've been trying to get what's his name, Roy, Baumeister on the show to talk about willpower. We've been in conversation for quite a while, but I'm wondering where you feel like willpower ends up as part of the equation? David Burns: I don't use the term willpower, but I created a term called willingness in the late 1980s when I was trying to find out why some people don't recover quickly when treated for depression. And over the years, I've come to see more of what this willingness is and what it isn't. I developed a scale. And essentially, how willing are you to do stuff to help yourself like, psychotherapy homework for example. And that was the only variable in the world literature that's ever been shown to have a causal effect on depression or changes in depression, and the causal effect is massive. And then you can think about that as resistance, or motivation, which would be the opposite. And that variable - I tested all kinds of things that people were saying cause people to get better, like therapist empathy. Everyone was thinking, that was it. Therapist Empathy is important but it doesn't have much of a causal effect on anything, surprisingly. But that variable was huge, and people doing homework had a huge causal effect on who got better. Neil Sattin: So the variable was their willingness or the variable was their taking action? Because someone could begrudgingly take action. David Burns: Yeah, yeah both. If you take action that's meaningful, to help him reduce your negative thoughts - the actual homework had effects and the motivation that the homework reflected also had a massive causal effect on changes. Recently I saw an article, somebody took this term willingness - I don't think they attributed it to me, they should have - but they developed a willingness scale for anxiety disorders and reported that's the first variable in the world literature that's been shown have causal effects on recovery from obsessive compulsive disorder - OCD. That are you willing to use exposure to confront your fears... Neil Sattin: So, willingness. So, that does intersect with the question of resistance and... So in your TEAM model, which is what you've added on and just to mention, for you listening, this conversation is, in some respects, giving you a brief synopsis of things that we went into a lot of depth into in our first two conversations together. So in our first conversation which was episode 98, we talked about your book "Feeling Good Together," and it was this question of how to help relationships using your model. We talked about that point that you just made a few moments ago that a lot of people actually don't want to change their relationship even though they might say they want to change their relationship. So we go into that question in a lot more depth in episode 98. And then in our last conversation, which was episode 133, we talked a lot about the ways that we work on our own feeling state. So the first conversation we had was more focused on relationships, then we went through all the cognitive distortions, and we talked briefly about your TEAM model, but let's just say what the TEAM stands for in this moment. Because that may be a good point for us to dive off into the other intersection that you brought up - the polio virus. And it's impossible to have a conversation right now. I think without talking about the ways that SARS-CoV-2 or covid 19 or the novel Coronavirus whatever we're gonna call it - that is impacting us. And I'm seeing it have a huge impact on so many people, including myself, people who have been resolutely positive and optimistic, and it's the way, the scale by which this seems to be affecting everyone in every walk of life - I feel like it would be great for us to bring our conversation back to that, and maybe we'll weave in, maybe we'll weave in all these things, like our resistance, and our blame, and we'll put it all a nice bow around it before we're done... David Burns: That sounds great! We're starting on my feeling good podcast series, Corona-casting and we've got two recorded and we're gonna be doing maybe one or at least one or two more. But essentially, when you're looking at the effects of the corona virus or both at intimacy relationship issuesm because we're compressed closer together, and there's more blow-ups and anger and tension being expressed. And so we've had a couple of those in my Tuesday training group at Stanford, where we sometimes do live work. It's free training for therapists in the Bay Area or from anywhere. If they come consistently, they can get unlimited training and unlimited personal therapy for free, which is a pretty good deal. And they have to come consistently, and do homework and use the brief mood survey to see how they're doing with their patients. But in the last two weeks, we've had two people very upset. Both therapists - the therapists are human - no different from anyone else - due to intense family conflicts that have erupted because of of the coronavirus. And then I've also been working on the internal mood issues - the panic, the depression, and how we use TEAM to help with those things too - again with one live, or a real example. But what team is: T is testing, E is empathy is, A is - we used to call it paradoxical agenda setting, but that was too confusing to people. So now we call it assessment of resistance, and then M is methods. Now testing means that we test every patient at the start and end of every therapy session. They do it in the waiting room. And can do it now on their cell phone so it doesn't waste any therapy time, but we find out exactly how depressed they are at the start of the session. How angry they are, how anxious they are, how happy they are, and what their relationship satisfaction is with the spouse or mother, whoever they want to be rating. And the reason we get those ratings at the start of the session is because therapists' ability to know how patients feel is close to zero. Research has proven this. And therapists don't know this. Therapists think they know how patients are feeling, but if you stop and test it, you find out the therapist's perceptions are way off base in most cases. In fact, it happened to me recently. I thought I was doing brilliantly. I'm not in practice, but I still treat a lot of people for free because I'm addicted to it. And on one of my Sunday hikes... I was working with a woman with certain issues, and I could just see that I was hitting it out of the park, and it was just an awesome hike... There were many hikers there, and afterwards, I was just congratulating myself for how outstanding I'd been in helping her, and then I discovered that she was enraged with me. I mean she was livid. I had totally totally missed the boat. And the listeners are maybe saying "Burnsie, he's probably insensitive. That wouldn't happen to me," but it happens to all therapists all the time, and most therapists don't know it. But if you get the assessments, the measurements, because then they rate you at the end on empathy, on helpfulness, on unexpressed anger, which was the case with my so-called patient, and a lot of other dimensions. And if you use the brief mood survey, it's like having an X-ray machine. You see the truth for the first time. It is the platform for all effective therapy to my way of thinking. E is empathy, you know all about empathy. And so at the start of the session, we empathize with the patient without trying to help. That was my mistake with this patient - I just thought I knew what her problem was and jumped in to cure her. I didn't bother to empathize or reduce her resistance - I violated my own rules. But fortunately, we had talked it over, and now we're closer than ever. The failure turned into something just the opposite. Neil Sattin: Right, and how often do we assume we know what's going on with another person? And just jump in, yeah, with offering something and it can be with the best intention. David Burns: That's one of the things here with the coronavirus - people are often trying to help somebody or tell them what to do. Most people just want someone to listen, they don't want someone to try to fix them, if they're panicky, or upset, or angry about the coronavirus - good listening skills is is all that 95% of people are really, really looking for. But then after we've empathized, and that takes about 30 minutes generally, in my experience. I treat most people just with one session, I don't have multiple sessions - I just treat people once and try to "cure" them or whatever that means in one two-hour session. One and done, is my approach. But if they need more, they can get more. But I rarely see people for more than one session. So you can empathize if you use what we call The Five Secrets of effective communication, which is I'm sure similar to approaches that you use. You can generally get an A or an A plus - you can form the deepest possible relationship with any person, you've never met in about 20 to 25 minutes. And then we do assessment of resistance. We say, "What do you want help with? Do you want help with anything?" And once they say what they want help with - could be a relationship problem, it could be depression, it could be anxiety - we do what we call, fractal psychotherapy. I don't know if we brought up that - fractal psychotherapy - a fractal is a little tiny formula that multiplies itself, and you can simulate almost anything in this way. This is like, how nature works. Neil Sattin: The macro level is mirrored in the tiniest piece. David Burns: Yeah, yeah, that's it. I can take a little tiny equation that a third grader could understand, and have it multiply on your computer, and it will go infinitely to the size of the universe. You can't see it all, you can only see a portion but you got it. It could create a gorgeous multi-color parrot, but the most beautiful little parrot, but if you zero in on the tiniest little piece of that, it will always be the same thing, that's just repeating itself over again. And that's how human suffering is. At any one moment in a relationship conflict, all the causes of the relationship conflict will be embedded. By one moment, I mean, what did the other person say to you, What did you say next? And if you look at that interaction, you'll see all the causes of that conflict between those two people. You don't need their history. You don't need their childhood - just one sentence from the other person, or two sentences - whatever - and exactly what you said next. That's a fractal for a relationship problem. And you have a fractal for depression. Tell me one moment you were depressed. What time of day was it, where were you, what were you feeling? Circle all of your emotions, how depressed were you? 90% okay, how anxious were you 80%? Okay, how guilty or ashamed were you? You get all of these emotions and 9 different dimensions, and you say, "What were you telling yourself, what were your negative thoughts?" And in that one moment when the person was depressed or anxious, you can find all the causes, and all the cures for all the upset they've ever had in their life. So we want the person to say, what's one moment - if you want help, give me one moment that you want help. Where were you? What time of day was it? What were you doing, who were you interacting with? Yeah, and then I generally say to the person, Okay, you were all upset yesterday at 9:30 or whatever and you were feeling 100% depressed and angry and upset and all these emotions, but what kind of help would you be looking for? And generally it comes down to... Well, I want my negative thoughts and feelings to go away. With someone recently... We had a woman 95% depressed and 95% anxious and 65% feeling inadequate, and I think frustrated at 100, and jittery 100 because of the coronavirus. She just woke up and she's trapped at home, and she's thinking that she should be more active, but she feels like procrastinating and then she's beating up on herself for not being productive. And... Neil Sattin: it sounds really familiar, actually. David Burns: Then we say, well if there's a magic button - if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will instantly disappear, or the person you're upset with will instantly become your best friend in the whole world. With no effort, you gonna press that button? And everyone is "oh yeah, I'll press that button." And then we do what's called positive reframing - we bring their subconscious resistance to conscious awareness. This is the whole key to TEAM therapy to eliminate resistance before you try to help the person change, and that is what has opened the door to these phenomenal high-speed changes that I'm seeing. Now almost all the time when I work with people, they generally go from extreme or severe depression, not only to no depression - they go into a state of euphoria, mostly in a single two-hour session. People hearing this will get enraged, and they'll think I'm a con artist, and think it's impossible. If I'd heard this was possible 10 years ago I would have said it's a con also - don't believe that person. But I see it and I measure it, I have the data... Neil Sattin: And you're doing follow-up with those people as well? David Burns: I do from time to time... I'm building an app now, a feeling great app, that will allow us to do follow-up forever, on everybody. Doing follow-up on humans is pretty time consuming. In my clinical practice, I did relapse prevention training. I always do that before I'm done with somebody. Because we can guarantee that people will relapse. 100% of humans relapse pretty much every day. I define a relapse of one minute or more of feeling like crap. We're always relapsing all the time, but what I found is that if you do relapse prevention training, which takes about 20 or 25 minutes - relapse has not been a problem. And what I do is I just tell the person you are gonna relapse and here's what you're gonna be thinking when you relapsed, and here's how to talk back to those thoughts. And then we practice it with a role play and they record it. Then I say, if you ever do relapse, play this recording and if you're still stuck, give me a call because I offer unlimited lifetime guarantee of my work, and I'll give you tune-ups for free, if you're not satisfied. Neil Sattin: It's a pretty good deal. David Burns: Yeah, in my whole career, I've had over 40000 hours of therapy sessions - I've only had eight or nine patients who ever took me up on that. And in all of them, it was one session or two sessions and then they're on their way again. I only had one patient whoever relapsed and required intensive therapy again, to get out of her web. So I don't think the relapse thing - the people that I've been working with - I worked with a woman four or five years ago, who thought she was a bad mother, because her daughter had been shot in the face, and she thought it was her fault. Her daughter was 12 and wanted to go out and play after dinner, and she says it's a little late but I guess... Go ahead. She'd let her daughter go out every night for years, and then some neighborhood boys snuck up on her daughter and they had a high power pellet rifle - and aimed it at her face and pulled the trigger. And it hit her daughter's tooth, which exploded in her mouth, and she ran inside, sobbing, blood coming out everywhere. And she required multiple, multiple surgeries. And in addition, by the time I saw the woman she had been beating up on herself for nine years. "I've ruined my daughter's life." Her daughter was still struggling with PTSD and had failed therapy. So we did the TEAM therapy with her. I did it in a live workshop, and it took about an hour and a half, and her feelings went from extremely severe that she'd had every day for nine years. Just, "I shouldn't have let her go out and play. I'm a bad mother I've ruined her life, I can never allow myself to be happy when she's struggling. The people in the audience who are watching, they probably are judging me and thinking I'm a bad mother." And at the end, she was more than recovered - all her negative feelings went to zero, but she estimated one of them as minus a thousand and another one as minus a million an a score of zero to 100. She was in a state of euphoria. So I contacted her. I follow up with people from time to time just out of curiosity, and she sent me an email that she's still in this amazing joy, and her negative thoughts have never returned it. And the thing is that after that session, when she recovered, I have a recording of it - which I gave her and she listened to it with her daughter, who had no idea that her mother was struggling like this. And then her daughter recovered. And so it's infectious, when you're recover. But at any rate, relapse prevention training is easy to learn - it isn't easy to learn how to cause severe chronic feelings to disappear in a single session or a short period of time. It requires a lot of skill and training. But at any rate at the assessment of resistance, we bring the factors - see Anthony de Mello, maybe I said this in our last interview, he's a Jesuit mystic from the early 1900s I think, or maybe the mid-1900s but he said "We yearn for change, but cling to the familiar." And that's resistance... We say, "Oh I would really wanna lose some weight." But then when you... someone offers you a nice... like my wife made - we're cooped up here at home - but she made some beautiful peanut butter cookies. And they're so good with a fresh, crisp apple. So you say, "Well I'll lose weight next time." We have ambivalence about change. And so, we bring all the reasons to resist change to conscious awareness and patients haven't thought of it before. And what we've seen is, for the most part, at least with depression and anxiety, the reasons people resist have do with really beautiful things about them, and once they see that, they don't wanna press that magic button anymore, because then all these beautiful things will go down the drain. Like the woman who says I'm a bad mother. I hope we didn't talk about her last time. Neil Sattin: No, we haven't spoken about her yet. David Burns: I think - she's saying "I'm a bad mother" - I told her, Well, gosh, if you press that magic button all your negative thoughts and feelings will go away. But before we do that, let's say, What do they say about you that's positive and awesome? When she's telling herself I'm a bad mother what does that show about her that's positive and awesome? And what are some benefits to her? What does that actually show about her, that's beautiful and positive? Neil Sattin: Well, it would show that she really cares about being a good mother. David Burns: Yes, and that's what she came up with. And I said, "Is that important? Neil Sattin: Absolutely I would imagine so! David Burns: Is it powerful? So if you press that magic button all your sadness and concern about your daughter will disappear and you'll be euphoric, as happy as a lamb - is that what you want? "Oh no, no, I see what you mean." You see, and she's intensely anxious. What does her anxiety show about her that's positive and awesome? Neil Sattin: Well, it would again be... I'm just imagining that she's still really concerned for her daughter and wanting to ensure that she's doing whatever she can to keep her safe. David Burns: Absolutely, is that important? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: is it real? Neil Sattin: for sure. David Burns: Is it powerful? Neil Sattin: Absolutely. David Burns: Yeah. And so we went through all of her negative thoughts and feelings. And now you're concerned that the people in the audience here are judging - gonna judge you. What's awesome about that, what does that show about you that's beautiful? You're a bit afraid they're gonna think you're a bad mother. Neil Sattin: Right... so she wants to be a positive role model in the world, for motherhood. She also probably wants people to know that she takes responsibility for being a good mom - that there's something about if she were totally okay with it, then somehow she's absolving herself of all responsibility. David Burns: So does it show that she wants good close respectful relationships with the people in the audience? Neil Sattin: Definitely. David Burns: Is that a good thing? Neil Sattin: absolutely. David Burns: Is that powerful? Neil Sattin: I would say, so, yeah. David Burns: And so everything you see, we've been trained to tell patients - you have a mental disorder - you can look it up in DSM, you could qualify for probably three different mental disorders. And that makes us ashamed of our suffering. Thinking. Oh, there's something wrong with me. And what we're saying is there's actually something right with you - a lot that's right with you - your suffering comes from the part of you that's most beautiful and awesome, at least with regard to depression and anxiety, not not so much relationship conflicts, although to a certain extent. But in depression and anxiety it's something beautiful. And that's called "assessment of resistance." And then with her we came up with, I think, 22 beautiful things about her and benefits of her negative thoughts and feelings, and I said, well... Why would you wanna press that magic button 'cause then all of this will go down the drain? Why would you wanna do that? And she said "I see what you mean, but still I I'm suffering so much, isn't there something I could do?" And then we used the Magic dial and say, "Well maybe instead of pressing the magic button we could dial them down. Your depression is 90... How much would you like to be at the end of the demonstration, today?" Is there a lower level, that you could keep all these beautiful things about you and your shame, and your guilt? What would you like them to be? How anxious would you like them to be and she said "oh well 20% is enough on depression and maybe five would be enough anxiety, and shame - I'll turn that one all the way down to zero." Her anger... She was very angry at the parents who let their boys out with a loaded rifle. And she wanted that one to go from 100 to maybe 20 or something. And then we say, "Okay well, we got powerful techniques and will lower them to those levels." She had a gold she wrote down for each of her nine different negative emotions. They I say "we won't lower them any further, but we'll have to be careful 'cause the techniques I'm gonna use here are so powerful - we may overshoot." Your depression may go down to five or zero even - but don't worry if you get too depression-free or too anger-free I'll help you dial it up at the end of the session. And she liked that, and now the resistance, is gone. And then we just went on and identified the distortions and her thoughts, and showed her techniques and roleplay techniques to talk back to them, and she just blew her negative thoughts out of the water. And then at the end I said now do you think these people in the audience are thinking you're a bad mother and they're judging you? Could we do an experiment to find out if that's true? And she got very anxious and he said, "You mean maybe I could ask them?" and I said, yeah, would you wanna do that? She says No no A... And I said "your fear shows us that it's the thing to do" 'cause that's exposure, right? Confronting your fear. So she said, "Well maybe could some of you come up to the front," because a friend of mine was doing is on his tiny little cam recorder, and so talk into the microphone - and then you can ask them if they're judging you and how they feel about you. And then about 10 people came up and each one of them she said "How do you feel about me?" And they started - every one of them started crying and saying, "You're my hero. Getting up in front of the group and doing this demonstration shows what a beautiful mother and beautiful human being you are, and I'm so deep in admiration." And then she started sobbing - she couldn't believe it. To see how off-base or negative, her thoughts had been... And that was kind of the end of the session - we did the end of session measurements and everything had gone to zero and below zero. So, that's TEAM - testing, empathy, assessment of resistance, and the M is methods. That's identifying the distortions in the thoughts and turning them around. Now it plays out radically different for relationship problems when we follow the same structure. Neil Sattin: right, and I like when I've heard you talk about all the different methods that get combined, and how you work with people, that you're quick to point out that they come from all of these different places that you're sourcing all kinds of different therapy, therapeutic models and how you approach problems. David Burns: yeah, yeah, TEAM is not a school of therapy, I'm against all schools of therapy. And think they could all be got rid of, just as when the Catholic church, when science and astronomy broke away from the Catholic church, it became a science - data driven science. So now you see how fantastic physics and astrophysics and all of that, has become... And I think that therapy you can draw from all the schools of therapy and the M equals methods. I use over 100 methods really that are on my list for therapists, and they come from all schools of therapy. But then we should be focusing on basic research, to see how all of psychotherapy works. And then having a structure for therapy. TEAM is a structure for all of psychotherapy. That's how therapy works - rather than schools of therapy, which are generally guru-driven rather than a science-driven, and are pushing some theory of some person who has a lot of followers. Neil Sattin: And is the idea that you're paying attention to what is actually working for the individual? 'cause I can see that some things might statistically look like they work more than other things, but if it's not working for the person in front of you, then it doesn't matter how statistically proven, it is to be effective. David Burns: Yeah, like her thought - the first thought she wanted to work on from her daily mood log was "I never should have let my daughter go out and play." And in my mind or on paper, I generate what's called a recovery circle. I imagine that thought's in a circle that she's trapped in - and then there's arrows coming out of the circle. And each arrow is a different way of escape and at the end of each arrow would be one of these hundred methods that I use. Like a method could be identifying the distortions, or externalization of voices, or examine the evidence, or a downward interpersonal arrow, or the hidden emotion technique, or whatever techniques. And then I go through them one at a time, in my mind, until I find the "Aha!" one that just implodes the system and the patient suddenly recovers. This recovery generally happens in a matter of... Oh, maybe a minute or something like that. When the patient suddenly sees that the negative thought is not true, at that very moment they will improve or recover. Neil Sattin: Okay, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to do something that I've only done occasionally, here on the show, but what I'd love to maybe try if you're up for it is... is to do a little work together. Because I feel like one of the reasons that I reached out to you is that when I was thinking, Okay, we're in the middle of a crisis, at least that's what the thoughts tell us - and the news tells us - and most of us are living somewhat sheltered in place. We're not leaving our homes... So the world is different in this moment. I was thinking, Okay, who... Who do I know that I would most trust to show up in a moment like this? And you were the first person that came to mind for me and so it's... David Burns: So kind of you to say - thank you - you're one of my heroes. Neil Sattin: Thank you David, I appreciate that. And so what I'm hoping is that for everyone listening, that if they... I think it's so instructive to hear you talk about the process and, as you know, witnessing the process might also be really helpful for people as they think like, Okay, how do I deal with everything that's happening in the world right now? [First we revisit the data set to see if we could find any more causal relationships or correlations] David Burns: We're looking at the relationship between relationship satisfaction, happiness or unhappiness on the one hand, and then a 10-item happiness scale. It's things like "I feel worthwhile, I feel close to people. I feel productive," and so forth. We'll get on to our exciting personal work, which is gonna be way cooler than research for your listeners. But we did get some clear cut results here, with, I think the... N on this is 9000 sessions - and so we can now say... Okay, let's just, let's look at the results, right? Okay, we've gotta just make one last adjustment. Does happiness lead to better relationships? Or does better intimacy cause feelings of happiness? That seems like a reasonable question, don't you think? So, and I'm just, I'm setting this up in the software I have no idea of what these results are gonna show, but they do, they do show a fairly clear cut result here. The correlation between positive feelings and relationship satisfaction is about.38 - it's a modest correlation - not huge - you take the square root of that which would be about 15 or - the square. The square of.38 is about.15. So there's about 15% overlap between how satisfied you feel in your relationship with your spouse, or partner, and how happy you are. Now, in one of these models I declared that there was no causal effect of positive feelings on relationship satisfaction. In other words, that when you're reporting how satisfied you are with your spouse or your partner, we're testing the theory that... How happy or unhappy you are, has nothing to do with that. Now do you think that's a true or false theory? Neil Sattin: I would say that that's - intuitively I would say false. That your level of relationship satisfaction would impact how happy you say you are. David Burns: Well, you're, you're right, you're a genius. Because it has no causal effect whatsoever. Now, how about the other hypothesis? Is your happiness, feeling of happiness, influenced by how satisfied you are in your relationship with your spouse or partner? Neil Sattin: That was the one that I was saying, I thought would there would be a correlation. David Burns: Well, we're talking about causal effects not correlation... Neil Sattin: Right, so, in other words, with the first one, does your inner state of happiness cause you to report more satisfaction in your relationships? David Burns: Right, and, and you predicted "no", and you were right... Neil Sattin: But that was the one where it was 15% like that there was 15%... David Burns: No - that's just the correlation between them, but that doesn't mean there's a causal relationship. Neil Sattin: Okay, got it, thank you for clarifying that. David Burns: Yeah, but if you're very unhappy and then you become very happy, that's not gonna affect how you report your relationship satisfaction or dissatisfaction. And that's kind of what I found in my pilot study too, that when we made people's depression, disappear, it had no effect on their level of satisfaction with happiness or unhappiness in their marriage. Now we're looking at the other direction. Does how happy or unhappy you are, in your relationship, does that affect your feeling of depression? Neil Sattin: I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Yes. David Burns: Yeah, and again, you're right, so you... I think you need to go into statistics. Good statistics should reflect common sense. It often gives surprises. There is a causal effect there, and I can tell you how big the causal effect is. My relationship satisfaction scale, is highly accurate. It goes from zero to 30. So let's say your relationship satisfaction increased by 10 points - that would be a huge improvement. And it's hard to get that in a clinical situation when someone's unhappy with their marriage. But if you can boost it by 10 points there would be four-tenths of a point increase in the positive feeling scale, which goes from zero to 40. So it's the same result that I had in Philadelphia. There is a causal effect in the direction you mentioned, but it is so tiny as to be kind of theoretically and clinically, meaningless. And it's kind of an interesting result, because it means that how happy or depressed you are, on the one hand, and then how close you feel to people in general or to your partner on the other hand - that they're not related to each other - for the most part, there's no connection. So, the tools that you would need to improve a relationship and the theory of what causes bad relationships is totally different from the tools you would need to treat depression or boost happiness and the things that cause depression or happiness. That they're independent domains - they are not linked. Neil Sattin: So, there you did see a causal effect, but it was pretty small. David Burns: Yeah, it's exactly what I reported in my original paper in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology in the mid-1990s or something like that - and no one's ever attempted to replicate it. Today, I have the first replication studies of that. And it is important because it means, let's say you're a therapist, and someone comes in with depression, and they're lonely or they have a poor relationship. Clairman and Cole [sic] have this thing called Interpersonal therapy where they treat depression by improving people's relationships, and then they think that that's effective. And of course, the therapy, all therapies for depression have a placebo effect and not much more. And that's true of theirs. And so while they do get people somewhat better. It's not - the depression doesn't improve because of improved relationships - improving relationships will not cause you to feel less depressed or happier. Neil Sattin: It's so interesting, it's so interesting. And I guess this must be something that I'd account for, I'd have to account for it in a different way. At this point it makes sense to me... People often talk to me about their relationships, I think, because of what I do. But prior to what I did, I found people talking to me a lot about their relationships, and it always seems, it has always seemed as though that if something isn't going well, that that weighs heavily on them and it does ripple out into the other aspects of how they perceive themselves to be doing. So what that would suggest - what you just revealed - is that we may harbor this belief that there's a connection there, when in fact those are two completely independent domains and should be treated as such. So, what someone says, "How are you doing" and you... You say like... Well, I'm okay, but my relationship is horrible or whatever. Then maybe the next response that should happen given what you just said, is like, "okay, that makes sense. Let's separate those two, because they are a completely separate or almost completely separate." David Burns: Right, right, and because you don't have a big ego, like probably your self is dead, so you're open and can receive. But the problem with most mental health professionals is that they think they know things, and so it's hard to accept new findings. I find these new findings that are so different from what I believe to be, in a way, kind of exciting, because what it means is that we have new understanding of how the world works, and then we can use that to refine our effectiveness as therapists. But sometimes it's really hard to accept what research teaches us because it shuts down what we thought intuitively to be the case. But I found this also true, that when - I have treated thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of people with depression and now I have tools to cause depression to disappear most of the time, just really fast in a single two-hour session. And I never work on boosting relationships - I can cause depression to go away without any attention to how happy or unhappy a person is in their intimate relationships. And if they also want help with relationships, then I would use a completely different set of therapeutic tools from the ones I used to treat depression. So it's just kind of interesting and you always have to take it with a grain of salt, because you can fool yourself with research too. But I've seen this now with two huge databases exactly the same results. Neil Sattin: I'd be interested to see how this... Not that we're gonna do this right now, but how this would overlap with say all the research and modeling that John Gottman has done, and see where those datasets correlate with... Where they line up with each other, and where there might be disparities between the two. David Burns: Yeah, absolutely, and if you review the literature too, if you want publish a paper, you have to say so-and-so found this and so and so found that... And so forth. But the kind of analysis that I'm doing here is-it's difficult to do, it's the most difficult topic in all of statistics when you have A and B - the kind of the chicken and egg thing. Most people don't know how to do this. This kind of modeling. But it would be fun. Maybe he has never measured happiness at the same time that he's measured relationship satisfaction - maybe he's never measured depression at the same time he's measuring relationship satisfaction. That's what you need to measure these things. at time A and then measure them again at time B later on - and then you can model the causal connections if any between the variables. But yes, it would be fun to find that out, but let's do something cool and truly awesome now and get rid of statistics...

ATOTBO -How to be the best you With a nice process thrown in to boot! I had a wonderful Ah-Ha moment about 18 years ago that changed the way I worked with my clients and because of it, and the success that ensued for them, it stuck with me. In fact, it IS the way I work. So what was this thing that happened? Well I'll start with that story, a moment that went from inner panic to complete self-confidence and I'll explain with examples the effect it has had on me. The thing is it isn't just working with clients because as you know, we, our unconscious minds, have a wonderful ability to generalize stuff (good and the not so good), this now affects the way I approach other issues in my life too. So much so, I offer just one of many ways in the form of a lovely process that you can use to deal with such things as criticism, or changing your negative behaviors such as anger, etc. that's triggered by situations and you would like to react better. Hell, it would also work for a newbie therapist to get into the zone and be confident. So what it is Cloughie? Hey! You're just going to have to listen and enjoy, I know there will be a least one golden nugget for you to take away here and probably many :O) I really hope you enjoy this and if you do please do the right thing by sharing it to all so that they can learn too https://personaldevelopmentunplugged.com/179-atotbo-how-to-be-the-best-you/ I'd love to hear your thoughts on this and any other episode and you can reach me at feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Shine brightly Paul Please remember you can leave a comment or email me with questions, requests and feedback. If you have enjoyed this or any other episode please share and subscribe. Just email me feedback@personaldevelopmentunplugged.com Go to paulclough.co.uk/subscribe to learn more Or simply click here to go straight to Apple Music / iTunes to subscribe OR leave a review If you want to access my FREE HYPNOSIS tracks go to paulcloughonline.com/podcast Follow and inter-react on twitter @pcloughie Why not look for me and the podcast on SPOTIFY AND the app Castbox I'm also in iHeart radio YouTube - copy n paste UC3BlpN4voq8aAN7ePsIMt2Q into search bar The Libsyn podcast page http://personaldevelomentunplugged.libsyn.com Stitcher, tunein, learnoutloud, Google Play Music Here is your show on RadioPublic: Listen to Personal Development Unplugged on RadioPublic  

Join me this week as I whine and wallow in my despair. "Why all this sadness?" you ask. Well I'll be 30 years old and that's all I'm going to say about that. This week on "I'm Sorry, Que", we have some fun with "Kiss Me" but Sixpence None The Richer. Instagram: @lifeasamoon and @em_ily421 Blog: https://lifeasamoon.com

We talked last time on some of the financial impacts the Coronavirus had caused, but now we will discuss how to plan to get through tough times and market downturns. John and Nick will talk about a few suggestions they have when they see situations like this and how to withstand a volatile market.Helpful Information:PFG Website: https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/Contact: 813-286-7776Email: info@pfgprivatewealth.comFor a transcript of today's show, visit the blog related to this episode at https://www.pfgprivatewealth.com/podcast/Transcript of Today's Show:----more----Mark: Hey everybody, welcome into this week's edition of Retirement Planning Redefined with John and Nick of PFG Private Wealth. Here today again to talk some more about the, well the coronavirus, like we can't not talk about it. It's the only thing going on in the world it seems like. And we're going to talk about retirement planning for this volatile market. Mark: So guys, welcome in. How are you this week? I'll start with Nick. How's it going bud? Nick: Oh pretty good. Just trying to be a voice of reason for people during this crazy time. Mark: Are you doing your part, staying safe, staying home, all that good stuff? Nick: Yep, I [crosstalk 00:00:32]. John: So let me jump in here. Nick's been doing his social distancing for the last three years so he's pretty good. Mark: Good stuff. How about you John? Nick: For at least three weeks, at least three weeks. Mark: At least three weeks? Yeah. Mark: How you doing John? John: I'm good, I'm good. I'm more upbeat today. I feel rejuvenated. I'm ready to roll. Mark: Well that's good. And that's tough, that's a challenge we're all going to face because a lot of us have been doing this for about three weeks already and we're looking at another month going through April at the time we're taping this. We've still got a few weeks to go, so we'll see how it plays out. But there's news every day, it's changing all the time. So we'll see how this plays out. But we thought it'd be worthwhile to at least go through some conversation about retirement planning through or during this volatile market. So let's just kind of jump in and talk about the overall importance of a strategy. Nick, I mean we talked about it long before this downturn happened and more than ever I think that it benefits to work with an advisor because it's a little bit easier some would say when markets are up and things are good and everything's going swimmingly well, than it is during downturns. And if you don't have that roadmap, it certainly can make things more cloudy. Nick: Yeah, it's been interesting. John and I both started in the industry in about '06, '07, so right at the kind of onset of the recession. And after we kind of got through that period of time, people were still afraid of it and what happened in that period of time for three, four, five, six, seven years. And since the markets have been going up for so long, planning has become more prevalent and people have understood that it's an important thing to do. It seems like some have done it almost because, okay, well this is what we're supposed to do, so we're going to do it. Nick: And now the feedback that we've gotten from clients is that it's really kind of clicked to them how important the planning is and how much peace of mind kind of re reviewing it and understanding parts that maybe they didn't quite get when we first set up the plan or in the first couple of reviews, realizing the importance of the plan as we move through times like this after having kind of a smooth sailing decade really. So we can't emphasize enough the importance of clarity and even just helping to avoid rash and unsmart decisions we can kind of put it that way. So the confidence level that we've seen for people that have a plan versus those that don't, from the standpoint of we've been introduced to new clients and we've gotten referrals kind of through this period of time and it's definitely a drastic difference. Mark: Yeah, definitely. Mark: Well John, let's talk about some of the things that the plan determines. Let's go through a few things to consider in there. John: Yeah. We like to say the plan determines what type of investments you should be going into and what strategy within those investments. And that's where Nick and I really try to focus on, "Hey, let's get an understanding of what your needs and goals are. What are you trying to accomplish?" And once we determine that, secondary always comes the investments and one of the things that with the investments go, we try to curtail or develop a comprehensive strategy for each individual person because everyone's different, everyone's risk tolerance is different. But the plan really dictates how much risk you should be taking. John: So we've had scenarios where basically we're doing a plan and the person when we first meet they're pretty aggressive and then when we do the plan it's, "Hey your plan works very strong at four to 5% rate of return, so why are we taking all of this unnecessary risk?" So really when you do something like that, you could be putting more scenarios where failing happens in the plan because there was a pullback. So we really have the plan dictate how much risk you should be taking, which with our clients, if we see it working around four or 5%. Not that we just aim for that, but we kind of scale back on the risk we're taking. Which I'll tell you right now, some clients are appreciative of that strategy, of just saying, "Hey let me gear what I'm trying to aim for a rate of return based on my plan."John:Other things that we really look at is someone's risk tolerance, which I think in the last month or so people's risk tolerance kind of shifted a little bit because they saw some real volatility because we've been almost in that 10 year bull market with not a lot of pullback. So we really try to figure out, "Hey, what's someone's risk tolerance and how much can they mentally afford to lose?" There are some scenarios where we might stress test the plan and that's a case by case depending on the individual. But it's important that you kind of take a look and just stress test it to figure out exactly how will my plan work with any type of market pullback? And then we're going to touch on this later in the next session next week, but importance of kind of building the right asset allocation in your overall investment portfolio. Mark: Well Nick, a lot of people had the question, especially with the heavy downturns, it came so fast, obviously in response to the virus and so on and so forth. You have people saying things like, "Why don't you just close the market?" Right? They want you to shut it down or whatever. And we thought, well we closed it a little bit during 9/11 but that was a little bit of a different scenario. But you're effecting liquidity by doing that and that's another key component to an overall plan is understanding liquidity as part of the strategy. Nick: Yeah. So the speed at which this happened, one article that I read had pointed out that this bear market happened in half the amount of days as the one during the great depression, which was kind of an eye opening sort of thing to think about where it really only took us about 21 days to get here. And so the speed at which that happened, literally when you think about it, in between the time that people get their monthly statements, they've lost a significant amount of money. So to tie into the planning, and this is something that we've tried to reemphasize with clients as something that we take into consideration, but I think it's also helped maybe shed a little bit of light on us spending a little bit more time talking about it with clients as we're putting together the plan is having a liquidation order and a liquidation strategy. Nick: And so what we mean by that is, people tend to look at their money as one pot of money and they don't necessarily think about it as, some people refer to it as the bucket strategy and a lot of times that makes the easiest way to understand, where we have short term, mid term, long term money and in understanding that even if you are two years from retirement or in your first couple of years in retirement, et cetera, we still have a long time horizon. And we don't just shut things down from the standpoint of the overall investment strategy and shifting the cash and those sorts of things. Nick: So we try to review and make sure when we have clients that are taking monthly withdrawals, we usually look to set up six to 12 months of expenses, dependent upon the client, dependent upon what they're comfortable with from a risk standpoint. Set up six to 12 months in their account of cash so that they know they have that income. The emphasis that we've made with clients on keeping a cash reserve where some feedback that we've gotten over the last few years, "Hey, interest rates are so low. This money's just sitting there. I hate not having it do anything for me," et cetera. Nick: And we've kind of tried to hold the line and tell them, "Hey, we understand but that money will come in handy." And really the peace of mind that people have when we go through it and we kind of walk them through. It's like, "Hey, look at between the money that you have in cash in your bank account and the money that we have sitting in cash to be sending you your withdrawals, we have a year to two years worth of income without you having to sell any of your other holdings, which gives your money time to bounce back and not realize these losses that we've seen," really starts to help people understand the importance of having that liquidation order and liquidation strategy. Nick: And then also, from the standpoint of having the big broad based game plan, having a premise or an idea of when we're going to start social security, but then understanding that, "Hey, when things change like they are right now," saying, "Hey, let's look at the numbers. Instead of us waiting another year and a half to start social security, let's go ahead and get it fired up now. Let's have that income start to come in that way you have a little bit more peace of mind, you have additional income coming in, we have to take less out of your investments." And as difficult as it is for people to think in the way of, "Hey, now's a good buying opportunity from the standpoint of your investments. Let's let that money work for you and try to get as much bounce back as we can over this period of time." So that liquidation order and how it fits into the broad based game plan has become really evident and important to a lot of people. Mark: Well, and speaking of importance too, one of the things that we're doing is we're all hunkering down in place and staying safe, staying home, all these things that we keep hearing now, but we can't just hunker down on our plan through this time period and just say, "Well I'll get to it after things start to get better." Right John? You want to revisit, you still want to have these conversations even during volatile periods. John: Yeah, and one thing we've tried to do during these last few weeks is really reach out to clients, especially the ones that are retired or are knocking on the door of retirement and revisit their plan and just let them know that, "Hey, even with this pullback, this is kind of where you still stand." And for the majority of them, they're still in a good situation. Again, partly because we had some strategies in place for a downturn in the market saying, "Okay, well now that the market's down, we have these other buckets, whether it's cash or whatever it might be, where it's not tied to the market and you can access it and let your investments recover." John: So I'll say in our reviews, when we show people their plan still works, it actually really provides a lot of peace of mind and it helps them make better decisions not to cash out where it's basically like, "Okay, you know what? Even though it's dipped, the S&P's dipped 20, 30% over this time frame, my goals are still going to be achieved so let's go ahead and stay the course." So that's where it's really nice just to have the plan in place. It's something you can always take a look at and say, "Hey, I know that the market's doing this, but how am I doing? And how is this going to affect my overall goals?" And when you evaluate it and say, "Hey, you're still okay," I think people feel a bit better about what they're doing. Mark: Yeah, I agree. And I think it goes a long way towards anything we're doing whether you're getting inundated with news every day on the virus and it's driving you nuts and you need a reprieve or you're getting inundated with market volatility or whatever. Sometimes having some clarity, having a calming voice, having someone to kind of talk you through some of these pieces certainly goes a long way. So it applies to your health, it also applies to your wealth. So reach out to the guys if you've got questions or concerns. That's going to do it for this week on the podcast. We talked a little bit about, again, how to plan through this volatile market. We're going to talk some more strategy on the next session. So make sure you subscribe to us on Apple, Google, Spotify, iHeart, whatever platform you choose. Mark: You can find them by simply typing in Retirement Planning Redefined, if you're using one of those apps and you enjoy a particular one versus another, just type that in the search box and you'll find it. Retirement Planning Redefined. Or go to their website, pfgprivatewealth.com, that's pfgprivatewealth.com and you'll see the podcast page there. You can subscribe that way and get all the episodes as they come out, check out past episodes. And of course, as always, before you take any action, if you have questions or concerns, please check with a qualified professional like John and Nick before you do so, and you can reach them at 813-286-7776 at PFG Private Wealth. 813-286-7776. Guys, thanks for your time this week, I appreciate you, for John, for Nick. I'm Mark and we'll see you next time on Retirement Planning Redefined. Nick: Thanks Mark. John: Thanks. 

Roddy Galbraith is a Professional Speaker, Coach and Master Speaker Trainer, having worked 1-to-1 with around 10,000 different speakers from all over the world over the last 13 years. John C. Maxwell (#1 New York Times bestselling author, coach, and speaker) describes him as the "best speaker trainer he has ever seen, anywhere in the world". Roddy believes that we are all speakers, whether we realize it and accept it or not, because we all interact with other people, all the time. He firmly believes that the best thing any of us can do for our business success, our career success and our life success is to become a better communicator, because it will do more for us than any other skill we can develop. He has spoken around the globe and worked with, shared the stage with and developed programs with some of the very best speakers in the world including Les Brown, Robert Cialdini, Bruce Lipton, Bob Proctor, Wayne Dyer, Bonnie St John, Seth Godin, Nick Vujicic and John C. Maxwell. He has a genuine passion for helping people find their voice so they can stand up and speak out in every different area of their lives. As you’ll tell from his accent, he’s English but now lives in Jupiter Island, Florida with his wife Susan, and their 4 beautiful children. You can connect with Roddy on Instagram @roddygalbraith and find out more at  www.SpeakerPro.com. So Roddy, thank you so much for being with us. You've really made a big impact on me over the last several years and working with you I've been able to apply your teaching not only to myself but to others that I'm coaching as well. So I'm really excited to hear what you're going to share with us today. I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to talk to you Jill and share a message with you and your listeners. So very excited. I thought today what I'd speak on, I have been thinking about this, I think the key to success and happiness really is growth. I think growth is important to one of those things. I think it's particularly true for leadership or anything really, but one of the problems with this is fear often stops us from engaging in the growth promoting activities that we need to do in order to get in the growth. And so if we want to be successful, we have to find ways really. We have to find ways to face the fears or any emotions that might hold us back and get in the way of that. So that's why I wanted to share with you today. Simple process for facing fear, stepping forward into growth in spite of the fairs. I love that. I hear that so many times that what stops people, I'm afraid to fail. I'm afraid that something might go wrong. I'm going to look bad and it perfectly right, which means why. Right? And it stops and it's with everything. So it's not just at work, but it happens at home. So I'm really excited to learn a little bit more. So tell us a little bit more about that. Well, let me start with the words of the German philosopher Johann von Goethe, I'm sure you have heard of many of your readers will have heard of. He said that “if you treat a man as he appears to be, then you make him worse. But if you treat him as if he already were what he potentially could be, then you make him what he should be.” You know, as a leader, I think our job is to our team, isn't it, amongst other things? So this quote is particularly true for other people, but I think is never more truer than for ourselves. We need to think about this for ourselves and I think it's far easier to put a 10 on the head of everyone in our team or everyone we meet or everyone, everyone else. We can treat them as if they have already fulfilled their potential. But it's much more difficult to do it for ourselves, isn't it? It's so true, isn't it? I think very often we believe in the potential of other people more than we do for ourselves more than you know, we see our own potential and I think if we think about this Jill, well, I use you as an example. If you imagine someone else taking the actions that they need to take to move forward into growth and to ultimately, that will lead them to being successful.  It doesn't really change the way you feel when you do that, does it? You just kind of consider it intellectually. Maybe you think about it for a moment and that's it. But if you imagine yourself taking the actions that you need to take, you know, to grow in order to lead to being successful. When it's you, then it's very different because that forces you to come up against yourself and all your baggage. And so it's a very different situation, isn't it: I fully agree with you that it is so true in the work we do, helping other leaders do this and grow and see themselves in that different light. I don't get the butterflies in my stomach when I'm helping them visualize themselves much further but when I do it for myself, I get those butterflies. Exactly that you've hit on it. Exactly. I think that's it. So we use speaking as an example now I know you, you enjoy speaking, but the lots of people that don't know, and as a leader, I think this is one of the best ways, the fastest ways that you can define your leadership with within an organization. If you can stand up and speak convincingly and appear comfortable and look very natural and at home, even if it's only for a minute or two, people will see you as a leader and you maybe you only need one or two moments like that a month, a few times a year to really define yourself as a leader within that organization, in the minds of other people because they'll see you as a leader if you can do that. But if speaking is a growth area for you, even though it's a great skill to develop, I think probably the most important skill for a leader or anyone really to develop no matter what you do. But if speaking is a growth area for you and you just think about speaking, then you're probably going to experience some doubt, or the butterflies that you were just talking about maybe you're going to experience strong emotions of fear and anxiety and unworthiness and you don't get those feelings when you imagine someone else doing it. But you do get them in it yourself. And, and actually we, you know, we can look at other people and we think, yeah, you should do it. I know you can do it. And if you do it and you keep going, you keep doing it - I know you're going to get better and better and better. So you should do it. But it's very different when it's us. It's very different with us. And then when we experienced the fear, so the fear is a problem. And I think probably the biggest problem with the fear is not the experiencing it in itself - is because it tends to lead to avoidance tends to lead to us kind of running away, doesn't it? Well, I mean, what do you do when you experienced those butterflies often you kind of think of ways that you can avoid doing whatever it is. Is there any way any kind of outlet, any way to escape? So now avoidance, it's really worth thinking about because it's avoiding the thing, like let's say speaking in this case, but actually it's really the feeling that is the issue. It's the feeling you want to avoid. We think it's the thing, but it's not. It's how we feel about it. And so we want to avoid anything that means that the feeling will stop. And I think most people miss this Jill, the importance of it. The feeling is not the facts that we fear. It's not the information that we fear, its the feeling. And this does take a little bit of thinking about, but what's something that you fear like flying or dogs or spiders or snakes or is there anything that you fear? Oh, spiders! I will scream!  Spiders is a great example.  Would spiders for you be worse than speaking? Oh yes, yes. Isn’t that interesting. Now commercial flight I think is, uh, is a great example. So spiders, I'll come back to in just a moment, but I've got an interesting statistic for you. I suppose commercial flying is the safest way to travel on a commercial flight because it's so regulated is very, very safe. If you look at the U S census data, then it puts the odds of a dying as a plane passenger about one in over 200,000. There's some, depending on the statistics and how it's interpreted, they come out slightly differently. But for these purposes, one in 200,000 the chances of dying as a cyclist, they say about one in 4,000 so I look at the difference between those two. Cycling is like 50 times the risk, but people aren’t scared of bicycles are they? People are scared of a bomb going off five miles up in the air and being hurled into the screaming darkness to their death because it's much more emotive. The fear of drowning is one in a thousand, chances of dying in a car crash are around one in a hundred according to this, one in 24 for stroke, one in five for heart disease. But we're scared of the emotive things. We're scared of the scary things, irrespective of the logic - we're scared of speaking and what the chances of dying when you're speaking?  Very slim, very slim. We're scared of bears. We're scared of alligators. We're scared of sharks. About one person a year in American dies from sharks, about one person dies in America. It's about one person that dies from bears.  About 58 people die from hornets. More people are scared of hornets, admittedly, more than bees and wasps. But the biggest number of deaths from animals is deer in America. 120 people die from deer in America, whereas one from sharks. But people are scared of deer, they are scared of sharks.  So we're scared of spiders and its about 0.24 I think in America people die a year. But your scared of them.  Terrified, terrified!   I run out of the room screaming, I can't take it. Yeah. This lesson is for you then actually by the time we get to the end! So it doesn't matter what the fear is, it's not logical, the fear is not logical, but that doesn't matter. The body isn't reasonable like that. Emotions aren't reasonable, its kind of learned programs and so they're lying to us.  Basically, what I'm saying is we can't trust those emotions. They lying to us. It's easy to say that they're wrong, but still we put total faith in them. We trust them anyway. And every time we turn away and allow them to control the behavior, we're reinforcing their validity. So then they become a self fulfilling prophecy and then they create our reality. So we start number one, let's say we're usually speaking of spiders, spiders, I'm scared of spiders and I'm scared that it's going to be dangerous so I don't go anywhere near them. And so I can't go anywhere near them and so I am right all along. It just kind of repeats the same kind of process over and over. Same with speaking, I'm scared I might not be able to speak in front of other people, so I avoid it. I don't do it, so I can't do it. So see, I was right all along. So it creates, the reality - its not based on logic or reason or facts or anything actually that holds up to reason.  It's just that learned process. So I think really what I want to share today, Jill, is that the answer to all of this is pretty straight forward. How do we do what we know we need to do, even though we really, really, really don't feel like it? And then also linked to that, how do we not do what we know we shouldn't do? Because it's the same thing, isn't it? Even though we really, really, really do feel like doing it. So it's acting in defiance of the emotions that stop us from growing. And so I got a simple process for that. But why I'd probably like to do, first of all, if it's okay with you, is just give them a little bit of the science and background into emotions because then it makes it easier to follow the three steps. So I think the first step or the foundation is you've gotta be convinced of the fallibility of emotions because the mistake people make is they assume it's the reflection of reality and then it really isn't. And so this comes from Dr. Albert Ellis’s work, who for those of you who don't know, he was a towering figure of psychology for many years. He, um, he was working, I think he'd died 94 when he died. And he was working into his nineties 16 hours a day, really, really very well respected doctor and his work was REBT - Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy work and he came up with this model called the ABC model that makes emotions very simple to understand. So imagine I'm your boss Jill, and I tell you that you have to speak to the shareholders at the AGM next week. Okay? So this is something that you're going to do and I know you enjoy speaking, but let's imagine you don’t, you're filling in for somebody and kind of like sprung on you. You're going to experience fear because it's like, Oh my goodness, you weren't experiencing fear before we had this meeting and I told you you're speaking, but now you very definitely are. So you think to yourself, I made you scared because you weren't scared before I told you you needed to speak at the AGM. And so now you're scared. You're experiencing the fear. And so the “A” at the beginning, and you might want to write this across the page, if you're the sort of person that takes notes as you listen to this, the “A” is the activating event. So the activating event is you've been told you got to speak. Now the “C” on the other side of the page on the right, that’s the consequence. This is the feeling that you experience. So you, the activating event, you need to speak at the AGM and then the consequences is the fear. So the consequences can be an emotion. It can also be thoughts, it can be actions, it can even be symptoms if the feelings are repressed and then come out in your body and symptoms. So here we're saying fear. So there's an emotion, the consequence is fear. The activating event is, I told you you need to speak - so it appears that A causes C so we can draw an arrow across the top from A to C, A causes C.   You know when people's like ‘he made me so angry, she made me so cross’. It's the same kind of thing. They did something. We're experiencing emotion and so it appears that they are causing the emotion, but they're really not. They're really not. So a simple way to dig into this, into the fallibility of emotions to, to reveal itself and say, well, I know you're feeling fearful in this situation, Jill, but imagine a number of people in the same situation. Would they all feel the same way as you? And you say, ”well, I don’t know. What did you mean?” I say, well, is it possible that some of them might be even more terrified than you? And when you ask that, most people will agree. Yeah, I think, yeah, they probably, you know, not that bad. I'm a little bit apprehensive. I'm fearful, but I'm not terrified. I'm sure some people could be terrified in this situation. Okay, well, could some people be looking forward to it? Well, I suppose, you know, if you're like that, then maybe yes, some people could, could enjoy it. Some people could be angry that they're forced into this situation. Some people could be apathetic, you know, whatever. It's pretty easy for us to agree that there's a whole range of different emotions that are possible in this situation. Most people will agree to that. Would you agree with that? That sounds useful to you? That does. Yeah. So if that's the case and you agree that a range of consequences as possible, it can't be the event that's creating the consequence. If, because if it was, it would always be the same. So something else, it's not the activating event that's causing the emotion – it is something else. It must be something that is specific to each particular individual. That's how we get these different emotions, these different consequences. And that's the B in the middle. It's the beliefs that these people hold that are responsible for the emotions. So its not the A that causes the C. It's not the activating event that causes the emotion. It's what you believe about the activating event and yourself and you know, whatever, whatever is relevant to this situation. It is what you believe about the activating event, which causes the emotion. So it's the B about the A that causes the C, that's the way to remember it. So we can see now that beliefs and emotions and really counterparts, they work together. What we've learned about the world is the meaning that we apply and creates the emotions that we then experience. And the important thing to realize here as we've kind of seen with emotions already, but now will apply directly to beliefs. Beliefs are the result of a learning process, not a reflection of reality. I'm sure you've heard that many times, but it's really worth thinking about with regard to fears. Beliefs are the result of the learning process, not the reflection of reality. Same with the emotions because we can use them interchangeably. And so you mentioned spiders. I had some experience with our children growing up with dog. Do you have kids Jill? I do, yeah.  Are they scared of spiders?  No, not too bad. Now he'll take care of it for me when I scream sometimes. Yes. Well we um, growing up we had dogs when our kids were growing up. We had dogs from right from the very beginning. You know, we've got four kids and they've all grown up around dogs all the time. And what they know about dogs is that dogs are fun. In fact, dogs are great fun. They've all been kind of crawling in the dog basket with them their whole lives. Now let's imagine somebody, let's pick two kind of fictitious people. Mary, who's similar to my kids, grew up around dogs all their lives. So she believes dogs are fun, all dogs are fun. But then hundreds of miles away, Mike grow up in a home where he never met any dogs until he was about six years old. He's walking down the road, turned a corner, disturbed a stray German shepherd dog spooked it, jumped up and uh, and attacked him and bit him and uh, mauled his face and he had a scar on his cheek because of this kind of experience with the dog. Unfortunate, horrible experience. So Mike understandably is now terrified of dogs. I think we could all understand that, we feel like it is a reasonable response. So Mike believes that all dogs are dangerous. Mary believes all dogs are fun. Now, years later in their twenties Mike and Mary get together and then now we're kind of walking down the road together and here they are. They just started dating together. They're walking down the road together, holding hands, and then they meet a dog unexpectedly. They are both going to have completely different emotional responses in their body, aren't they? To the same activating event, but totally different responses in their body.  Mary’s instinct is just to go and play with the dog and Mike's instinct is get away from him as quickly as we can because all dogs are dangerous and this is a dog and this is potentially gonna, gonna be a threatening situation for us. So what's Mike thinking? He's thinking escape.  And what is Mary thinking - oh, how cute. Let's go play with and pat the dog. Who's right, which one is right? Which one is a reflection of reality. It's interesting, isn't it, when you're thinking about it like that, but obviously we don't know. We don't know because it depends on this particular dog, doesn't it? We don't know anything about this dog. So looking on, we can see that you've got these two scenarios, but we can't say because we don't know anything about this dog. What each of them really needs to know is what is this dog actually like? But the response in their body is based on dogs that they met years ago, dogs that died years ago, and that's driving their experiences with this particular dog. Neither of them is thinking about this. They're just experiencing the emotion of course, and that emotion as a result of a previous learning process, not a reflection of the reality that they're now facing. So the ABC model is, I think it's really powerful to expose beliefs for what they are -  expose emotions for what they are. Because the consequences can be emotion of course, as we've just said, but it can be thinking, it can be behavior, it can be acting as well. So if the beliefs are a result of a learning process our thinking or feeling or acting is also the result of a learning process. Mike isn't thinking objectively he's thinking emotionally. He's thinking scared. He's thinking, how do I get out of here? How do I escape? He's not thinking objectively. So am I articulating the fallibility of beliefs here Jill? Exposing the weakness or the potential weakness? You are spot on. I loved the way you explained that as well because I'll tell you as you were telling that story, I just met with an executive earlier today and we were doing some coaching and one of the things he said is, I hate speaking public speaking. I don't understand the value in it. Um, I don't want to deal with it at all! And so that example really came up to me and we had some other conversations about -here's some actual facts and this is how it is. And um, I started to share the beliefs a little bit with him, but I love this model because we all know that we are beliefs and you've taught me definitely that we're all combination of things that we've had experience to us and we don't really recognize that or realize that. And it stops us. And I wonder if you could share, one of the fears that tends to come up a lot is the fear of having a conflicting discussion, managing conflict. Giving feedback to an employee, a feedback that the employee might not like. How did that show up here? Okay, so it's the same thing. Really any fear, any emotion is based on our interpretation or meaning. What have we learned about this? What we anticipate. So the activating event, it could be it's actually seeing a dog, but it could be real or imagined. It could be just you imagining what's going to happen. So the same process is at work. I think the thing with beliefs is they kind of lurk in the subconscious. So if you draw a circle and draw a horizontal line across the middle, then put a like a  B underneath for what you believe about dogs, what you believe about your ability to interact with other people, your worthiness, you name it. I mean it's endless. We've got all of these different beliefs here, but they're silent until they're activated. The belief isn't shouting at Mike saying, be careful of dogs around this corner. There might be a dog, there's dogs here that doesn't happen. It takes the activating event for it to be tripped for, for then it to influence our feelings and our actions and our thinking. So if there's a fear of giving, well fear of anything really, it's kind of how we're thinking about it based on what we've learned, previous experiences. So the approach is still the same. And I think if you take that particular interaction, so let's say your, you're giving a performance review, you're interacting with some people on your team, you need to challenge some inappropriate behavior or you know, whatever it may be that you're a little apprehensive about. The key is the same that I'm going to come onto - the steps. What you want to do is dilute that fear through repetition and exposure and think about the different steps that you're going to go through. And I would recommend, you know, speaking, is a good example of this, but so is appraisals. Practice going through what you're gonna do.  Same with job interviews. They're all performances and so you can treat them all in the same way. So if you think about being assertive or challenging inappropriate behavior or something that you feel the other person is not going to take, well practice it. Role playing is another great example that, that helps with this because you're moving through the process and you end up systematically desensitizing the triggers to the emotions, the more you do it. So a seasoned manager that's used to speaking to people, a great deal is going to have moved on from those kinds of feelings.  They gained skills, knowledge and experience over the years. But initially they probably felt apprehensive. So you either wait for the experience or you fabricate the experience kind of laboratory  side of your life. So you create that experience. Speaking is such a great example of this because if you and I went on a, no, I won't use you, I will use one of your listeners. I'm sure there's someone called Mike listening. If me and Mike went on a speaking tour and he was gonna speak at the beginning every day, five days a week for 10 weeks, he would be a significantly better speaker at the end than he was in the beginning. And we all can laugh and say, yeah, that's true. But if he just had one or two speaking events coming up and he still was starting out with the same kind of feelings, we could manufacture a lot of the lessons from that 10 week speaking tour with a video camera and training program and the confidence would build in the same way and the anxiety would dissipate in the same way. So it's the same process. We need to understand that the feelings are something that we've learned. They may or may not be helpful. They may or may not be realistic. They may or may not be logical. They may or may not be something that we need to challenge and that is holding us back from what we want to get. Then, um, we probably do want to challenge them. But just because it's uncomfortable, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily wrong. It might just be that it's something that we've not done before and is trying to stop us maybe from appearing foolish or, or making mistakes or maybe just stop us from making effort to prepare or effort to do something. So the process I would recommend is the same. First of all, understanding and really buying into the fallibility of the emotions we've just been talking about. And then taking responsibility for the change. It's a funny thing. I don't know. Are you scared of heights or, or anything Jill? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not great with highs and so this is another, you know, personal experience example for me. If you take someone who's scared of heights and put them in a position where they would not be at all comfortable, you know, i.e. up high somewhere, but they say because it's not logical, the emotion, so it doesn't mean they need to be safe so that you could, you'd do it. But if you do that, you're still going to feel the emotional response, but it doesn't last forever. It's kind of brutal. But if you're immersed in that situation, you'll be fearful and panicking and Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness, and the fear kind of runs itself out. And you're still concerned that you're not experiencing the fear to the same degree. If you went back up there the next day, same thing. And so exposure to whatever it is, we're forced to acknowledge and to recognize the belief you saying, you know, “we're gonna die, we're gonna die.” And the body is responding appropriately for that as if we're going about to being by a lion or whatever. But if you stay there and you don't, you're forced to acknowledge that actually you can do it. You have to because it's happening. That that's the evidence. And so as I say, it's a brutal way to desensitize yourself to the triggers, but it works. A much more gentle approach is systematic desensitization, first of all in your mind and then in real life, but still baby steps, which, um, you know, is a, is a great, great way to deal with facing the fears and learning what you're really capable of. So it's challenging, but it's not too much. And I've been using this process for years with speakers and it works fantastically well. And if it works with speaking, it will work with anything because so many people are fearful of speaking. Well I'll, I'll run through the three steps now and really quickly if, if that suits you. That would be great. Yeah. We all have this fear and what can we get better here to help us and then help us help the people that we lead? Exactly. Yeah. So the first of all is that, you know, agreeing that the emotions are fallible and they're not a good gauge. We shouldn't be looking to our, in fact, emotions are terrible guide to our potential, terrible. They try and keep us where they are, try and convince us to stay where we are. So that's the foundations that we have to accept that and the responsibility for change. No one's going to change it for us and we have to do that. But then when you've done that, lets use speaking as an example, who do you need to become to do what it is that is going to help you grow? Think about that. And here it's useful to think about role models may be people you admire, people you see who are doing what you need to do or know that you should be doing, but you're kind of shying away from. If you can get like real people, that's very helpful so you can see what it is that done what you want to do. So step one, who do you need to become to do the things that you need to do? And then step two, this is like, you know, the first kind of baby steps towards the desensitization. Visualize yourself being the person that you need to be.  So visualize yourself living that way. I'm sure you probably had people talking about visualization already. If you haven't, I'm sure you found them coming up so I won't go into too much. But it's interesting that the unconscious doesn't know the difference between what's real and what's imagined. So the body responds to the images we accept on the screen of our mind in the same way. A simple example going back to Mike, which makes it kind of self evident in Mike's walking down the road with Mary and he sees a dog and his body responds with the fight or flight response. Mike's body will respond that way whether he actually sees the dog or whether he just thinks he sees the dog. Remember the activating event can be imagined. In fact, he might just sit down, close his eyes and imagine this dogs, and he is going to have that same response, isn't he? So this is a great way for us to get experience in a safe way. So step two, imagine yourself, visualize yourself being that person. And then step three, now we're out of the mind and into the real world. Take action steps in increasing ambitiousness. Baby steps, start small, but going up escalating in the direction that we need to go. So actually do those things. If it's speaking, start just saying your talk out loud or your ideas for a talk unattached to doing it perfectly. In fact unattached to the outcome completely. The only thing you're attached to is that you're engaging in the activity. It doesn't matter what comes out. So just start speaking out loud and use notes if you want. And then when you're ready, audio record yourself and then maybe do it in the mirror and then maybe video yourself and then watch it back. And then when you're ready, maybe get a couple of your friends together and say, I'd love your feedback on something that me. Let me share this with you. And then onto real audiences, always videoing yourself and always reviewing, cause this is the evidence you need to see what you're really capable of achieving. And so each time you're watching unattached to the outcome, you know you'd like to do a good job, but don't get hung up on that - and don’t let perfectionism stop you from even starting this. Many people that are scared of speaking. Do you know what they're actually, I'm convinced of this, I've asked so many people discussed it with so many people, I'm convinced of this. Do you know what they're actually afraid of? They're not afraid of making a terrible mess of it. They're afraid of not doing it perfectly. When you think about it, but we don't think about it. That's the beliefs that are kind of lurking and creating this thinking. So you know you gain the insight, your beliefs change as you proved yourself what you can do. You have to, you're, you're faced with the evidence, your confidence builds, the anxiety dissipates, the emotions will change. But you have to start with the emotions you have. You have to start with the anxiety and then eventually the confidence will come. So powerful Jill, honestly it really is. If it works for speaking, as I said, it will work for anything. I've seen so many people who they would never believe, would able to develop their speaking and being in front of people and then going on to, you know, to speak in front of thousands of people. And actually I know I've spoken way too much, but just one kind of final point here. If you follow this process of something like speaking, which I recommend all leaders though because it's a great, great skill to develop. Yes. Once you prove to yourself what you can do, you know the process works and then you can help the people in your team to develop this particular skill or any other growth area where they're being held back. You can help them with the process of you like going through this process yourself and facing fears and overcoming fears. Then you're able to help everyone else in your team and help them grow as well. Yeah, you gave us so much great stuff. I just, one thing was really sticking out for me, and I know you hit it a couple of times, but I think it's just important to reiterate that you said don't get attached to the outcome. Just the activity. Yeah, that's it. We're responsible for the effort and not the result. That is one of the spiritual groups say that all the time and I think that's a great way of putting it. You just got to do it. You're responsible for the effort. Not the result. Yeah, and that is, that's really powerful to think of, especially when your experienced, your a leader, you don't want to fail at anything and it's just trying it, just trying to stick to learning and trying it and I think that really stuck out for me that I think is important. Can I make one more point on the leader because I think people, when they're in charge of people, they put this pressure on top of themselves that they're supposed to be good at everything. They're supposed to be better than everyone else in the team at everything including speaking or leading or whatever. And so you don't want to risk speaking, using that as an example, because you don't want your team to maybe say you're weak or you can't do it or, and I think there's a danger in that thinking because when we shy away from something that we feel we ought to do or when we know actually we're scared and we don't do it, our self-esteem takes a hit. Our self-esteem is impacted. Even if you think you're saving yourself from the possibility of making a mistake, the self-esteem suffers. But when you take an action and you do it, even if it doesn't work out as you wanted, your self-esteem goes up. And so that kind of resilience comes from taking action. And in fact, many people don't like speaking and so they respect you for having a go as well. So I think that that's a very healthy way of looking at it as a new leader or an existing leader, that people are going to respect you for stepping forward into growth much more than they are from hiding away and trying to pretend you're perfect. Yeah, I love that. That's so true. We feel like we're supposed to be the perfect model when we actually embrace it when we see some, some people actually not doing everything perfectly, it makes us feel like they're human. Yeah, humanness is a great way to connect with your team isn’t it? You're gonna end up being connected because you have this humanness about you and pretending you're perfect is a great way to kind of create a gap between you and your team. So everything to be gained from being just stepping forward into growth. Well, Roddy, I'm curious, how have you applied this to yourself? Yeah, I mean I've used this, I used to struggle with panic attacks years ago or so, I kind of fell into speaking as like an antidote to that. So I've, I've studied this in great detail, great detail and applied it to myself and gone from being terrified to speak in front of people, to speaking in front of, you know, thousands and thousands of people and completely changing my life as a consequence. I've also, as my kind of key role with the John Maxwell team, worked one on one with about 10,000 different speakers over the last 10 plus years and I've seen many of them bloom and go from like terrified into like, Oh my goodness, I've tasted blood now and I, I can't go back. I just love this. I just love it. And sometimes it's just little things. I remember working with one lady and it was as simple as getting her feet right, and her stance right and her hands right. She saw herself on video. She was terrified. She still has her cell phone video, cause I always video everyone when I'm working with them, so you know, so you can see (A) what we're working on and (B) you can see you can do it. And she said, yeah, you're right. I do look kind of graceful. And she still felt uncomfortable but she was, basically, she came to me cause she had to give a presentation at work. But she still felt uncomfortable. But she looked like a speaker because her hands were, yeah, she he good neutral hand position and feet. She was standing up straight and feet close together. She looked very elegant and that changed everything for her. Somebody else I was working with who um, there was like a merger of departments and she had this opportunity to stand up. She had a small team and she needed to talk to the people of the combined team. And so all of the managers were going to do this and she was really worried about it. I worked with her for about an hour and a half, that was it, on this like five minute presentation and I used her phone and videoed her from the beginning and she was cringing. Like I said, right, if you have to do it now, what would you do? And she was like, I don't know, we haven't, then we videoed. And she's like, Oh, that was awful. But she like, she got over the fact that I was going to be videoing her and making her doing it quite quickly. Two or three times of doing this kind of two or three minute videos, watching it back. Okay. This time, what do you think you would change? Okay. Yeah, that's great. Right? So we went and we did this for 90 minutes, pretty much constantly. We would talk about it, we'd have some ideas. She said, I need to introduce my team. We'd do it. We'd watch it back. And I'd say, you know that, that that's a little dull, the way you're doing that, is there any stories that you have or anything you could, you know about each of them? And we talked about it and she came up with a couple of little anecdotes that she could use, have another go, watch it back and by the time we'd done this for 90 minutes and she went home to practice afterwards and the next morning I got a call after the thing and she said, you will not believe how well it went. She said everyone else like stood at the lectern and was gripping the lectern and talking down into their notes and I stood up and I didn't need notes, I was walking around, I knew it inside out and I was making them laugh and they were clapping and people came up to me afterwards and said, Oh, you are such a natural leader. You look so comfortable in front of the audience. And it was just because we spent 90 minutes working on a five minute presentation that she was going to give. I've worked in organizations for a big global organizations in the finance industry for many years, and I've seen the difference it makes when people stand up and they can, even if it's just a one minute like leaving speech or a, you know, a new joiner. If you take those opportunities, you can, you can stand out as a leader if you, if you do it and you don't if you don't. So I think speaking is a great way to define your leadership. It's something I've worked hard at and made significant progress from where I was and I've seen much, much greater progress in, in other people that I've worked with. I love that story.  Yes, it works with everything, not just speaking. Yeah, thank you. And you made another great point where they come up and say, Oh, you must be a natural. You're so good at this. Yeah. Assume that you were born with this gift. It's so true. We don't think about the process. Even if we know they've been through the process, we don't think about it. You just kind of see the end result and think, Oh, well you're lucky you're that. I mean, and it's not, I think the natural comes from when we, when we're doing something habitually and it looks like we're doing it without thinking about it. People assume, oh well they're not thinking about it, therefore they must be born this way. You know, different genes. We might as well use it to our advantage. Exactly. I love it. So fear, fear is really getting in the way of us growing to our full potential. And yeah, you said two things. (1) We need to understand fallibility of emotions and (2) take ownership of the change. Yeah. And then you gave us three steps that we need to take. You said (1), identify who we need to become and look around us and see who's around us that maybe mentors or models. So we can do the thing we know we need to do. Step (2), you said visualize ourselves being that person that we need to be doing that. You know, actually seeing ourselves doing it, visualization because we can do this in a safe way and step (3) was take actions but take those small steps, small and slow steps towards where we want to go. Did I get that right? You go that right, but I'll give you the super hack for those people who have got no patience for the process. The super hack is go straight to step three but be prepared to be uncomfortable. Be prepared to be uncomfortable. Just start doing it and videoing yourself and watching it back or you know, video is great not just for speaking actually cause the video is great for everything cause you can see yourself as other people see you – posture, everything, interviews, Q and A. Anything, anything that you're involved in - golf, swimming. If you can see yourself, it gives you a different perspective. It really helps you learn and grow martial arts, dance, everything. But yeah, if you want the super hack, just do it. Jump straight into step three and as long as you, you know, you don't get overwhelmed and give up, then you'll make rapid progress that way. I love this. I love this. I got to think about how I'm gonna apply this to spiders, but maybe later. Yeah. Its something that it's been proven time and same as snakes, systematic desensitization is a very, very popular approach with phobias like that. Well I better get used to it. I just moved to a big farm so yeah. That's okay. Increased exposure. Yeah, I'm getting, I'm getting increased exposure right now. Yep. Well Roddy, is there anything else you wanted to share or anything that you're working on right now that you want to share with us? So we have, uh, my business partner, Paul Martinelli, who maybe some of your listeners will know. We have a business called Living Empowered and so we have free content that we give out in different formats. Every week we do a show on Saturdays, we have a lesson in the week and it's all free. Some of it goes off to become paid at some point in the future, but every week there's free stuff that you can dive into. So if you're interested in finding out more from me and my business partner and other people within the community, then you can go to www.Yourempoweredlife.com  www.Yourempoweredlife.com and see how you can jump into those. We have a free program coming out starting on the 16th called the science and getting rich, which is based on an old book. It's got lots of great stuff in it with Paul and I discussing that for about 15 hours, all in all, we just finished the filming and you can find out more about that SGR2019.com if that interests you. If you're interested in developing your speaking, I'd highly recommend the John Maxwell team. If you want some more hands on help, then you can email me Roddy@speakerpro.com and if I can help you then I'd love to. I love it. I can't advocate for that enough either. I met you through the John Maxwell team. I've really engaged in the Empowerment Mentoring. I'm bringing more friends through the book study Science of Getting Rich, we already did your other study around As A Man Thinketh.  Hmm, I love that. I will continue to share everything that you do because you just help people grow and I really appreciate what you shared with us today as well.  It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.  Bye everybody. It's great to chat with you. You're welcome. It's great to chat with you too. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. Bye. Bye. God Bless. CONTACT INFORMATION: You can reach Roddy at Roddy@speakerpro.com and check out his free content at www.Yourempoweredlife.com You can reach me, Jill Windelspecht at jillwindel@talentspecialists.net and my website is www.TalentSpecialists.net.  I work with leaders and help them through coaching, organization consulting and leadership development.    

Sign up today: http://betterhelp.com/solvinghealthcareand use Discount code “solvinghealthcare"Critical Levels:http://www.criticallevels.ca Resource Optimization Network website: www.resourceoptimizationnetwork.com/Follow us on twitter & Instagram: @KwadcastLike our Facebook page:https://www.facebook.com/kwadcast/YouTube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLmdmYzLnJeAFPufDy1ti8w   Transcript:Kwadwo : 00:00 Yo, y'all wanted more of André Picard. We are delivering. We're talking cannabis. We're talking PharmaCare. We're talking medical assistance in dying. We're talking privatization of healthcare. Episode 14 with André Picard. Let's go.Kwadwo: 00:18 Welcome to Solving Healthcare. I'm Dr. Kwadwo Kyeremanteng. I'm an ICU and Palliative Care physician here in Ottawa and the founder of Resource Optimization Network. We are on a mission to transform healthcare in Canada. I'm going to talk with physicians, nurses, administrators, patients and their families, because inefficiencies, overwork and overcrowding affects us all. I believe it's time for a better health care system that's more cost effective, dignified and just for everyone involved.Kwadwo : 00:53 Thanks for tuning in everybody. We are super excited about this episode with André Picard. We cover a lot. We cover some of the questions that we saw on social media, on Twitter and on Facebook, but what I want you guys to really take away from this episode is how a lack of clear objectives and goals within our healthcare system really can impair care, and impair resource utilization. I think that was a huge eye-opening point that André and I get to talk about here in this episode amongst the other things, but it's a real eye-opener. Every other area within business, healthcare, your own health, your career goals, you, all of us have clear goals and objectives, but what are our goals in healthcare? Is it to reduce infant mortality? Is it to improve on mental health services? What are our objectives? These are the real questions we should be asking ourselves.Kwadwo : 01:56 Okay. Before getting into the show, I want to tell you about our sponsors, Betterhelp.com As I said, I love these guys. They are online counseling service that provides accessible, affordable, and convenient counseling services that are readily available by a video chat, via telephone, via text messaging, and they cater to your needs, whether it's teen counseling, whether it's marriage counseling, whether it's health care providers, addressing compassion fatigue. They're fantastic. So if you guys are looking to sign up, use promo code Solving Healthcare, and you'll get a 10% discount on their services. Our other sponsor today is The Podcast Critical Levels. This is hosted by my boy Zach Cantor and this show's awesome. It's about paramedicine and the issues around paramedicine, but they also dive into issues that involve us all. Specifically, he had a great episode with Dr. Zemek about childhood concussions, which as a father of three boys that are involved in hockey, I was completely engaged in. It was a great conversation.Kwadwo : 03:08 This guy's going to be a star, so you guys are game, listen to him on iTunes, Spotify, or Stitcher, anywhere you could listen to podcasts and, it's a guaranteed gamer man. Good job Zach. Lastly, I want to give a shout out to the Department of Medicine at the Ottawa Hospital. These guys have supported this show tremendously. I want to give a shout out to Abhilash, Sandra, D D, Tracy, you guys are amazing. They've assisted with marketing, on updated website on the Department of Medicine page. I'll leave links to that on the show notes. It is proper, but yeah, love you guys for all the support and uh, appreciate it. All right, let's dive into it. André Picard, the author of "Matters of Life and Death." And you heard him on Episode 13. Amazing journalist, 40 years of experience and he really delivers on this episode. We talk about it all and I can't wait for you guys to listen to it. So we're just going to dive into it. Enjoy Episode 14.Kwadwo : 04:14 So I touched a bit on universal healthcare and in how, I'm not sure in Canada we can truly say that we have universal healthcare. I'm wondering if you had any thoughts in terms of privatization. You know this is coming up a lot in terms of ways of making healthcare more sustainable, dealing with wait times and so forth. What are your thoughts in terms of privatization?André Picard: 04:40 Well let me start with the universality part of the puzzle. So we have, in Canada we have this notion that we have a universal system, but we have the least universal universal healthcare system in the world. I think once you put it in those terms, you go, "Oh hold on. Is that true?" Because we cover hospitals and we cover physicians a 100%, we cover very little of everything else. We cover about 45% of drugs publicly. Well, 30% of home care, uh, 30- 35% of long-term care, 6% of dental care. We're all over the map and it's irrational. So we don't have a universal healthcare system. So that's the first part of the puzzle. I always said, I like to use the analogy of a basket. So we have this Medicare basket of services. Right now we have a basket that's very narrow and very deep. It's hospitals and physicians.André Picard: 05:29 We pay for all of it, even though some of it probably shouldn't be paid for. And then the other stuff we don't cover near enough. So I think we need to make this basket a lot wider and a bit shallower. So we cover a lot more, but we give some people some responsibility for the rest. So that brings us to the, the second part of the privatization talk. And I think a lot of the talk about privatization in Canada, the way to shut down any discussion about healthcare is to say, "Oh, you're going to privatize, we're going to be like the U. S." Well, I think that's it. I think that's nonsense. I think it's a false dichotomy. I think the reality is every, no health system can cover 100% of everything for everyone all the time. So we're going to have some private healthcare,. We have to realize that from the outset.André Picard: 06:18 So the question is not will we have private healthcare? The question is where do we have it, how do we regulate it, and how do we make sure that everyone gets the essential care that they need at an affordable price? So that's, you have to have these philosophical parameters and then how we deliver the care. To me, it doesn't really matter. I don't care if it's delivered by a privately, publicly a mixture. What matters is that people get the care and that it's accessible and that it's affordable. So that that's my philosophy. I get some grief for that, but I think that's how we have to have the discussion about privatization. It's not black and white. It's about how do we regulate it, how do we ensure that it's delivered fairly and comprehensively, et cetera. I think in Canada, the problem we have is we have a badly administered public health care and badly regulated private health care. So we kind of have the worst of both worlds. A lot European countries have a lot of private health care, but it's very strictly regulated. It's not a free for all the way it is here. So there's different ways to, to have get that balanced right. And again, you've got me on my pet topic.Kwadwo : 07:27 That's part of my game. It's interesting because actually I've never heard it framed that way is that we're the, how'd you put it, in terms of universal healthcare, we're the...André Picard: 07:36 ...the least universal in healthcare.Kwadwo : 07:39 Yeah, I like that. And I mean cause it's often people forget that they're like, oh we don't have any private health care in Canada. But you know, if I go see a physiotherapist I'm paying out of pocket. And it's true. It's like where do we want to put our private resources? I mean, well some of the topics that come up or worries I hear people mention is like resource drain where like some of the best surgeons or physicians or whatever, allied health professionals, would just strictly go into the private sector. But it's kind of like you mentioned if you regular, if you're like anything that you're going to do that's semi new or complicated will take some nuance. And so yeah, you know, maybe you need to restrict how much time physicians could spend in the private sector. Maybe that's a solution, but certainly to think that we can't have any element of private healthcare in 2020 or beyond I think is a bit ignorant at this point.André Picard: 08:41 Well, you're right. It's about setting parameters. So if you look at a country like France, a many doctors practice in the public system and the private system, but there's strict regulations. So if you want to work in the private for every hour you give to the private system, you have to give an hour to the public system. So that's, that's a way of getting some balance there. It's not a, you know, it's not an either or. In Canada you can opt in many provinces, not all, but in many provinces you can opt out of the public system and then you can charge whatever you want. There's no limit. I'm not sure that's a good system. Now very few doctors do because our Medicare system is actually very generous for doctors and it's a good system, very little bureaucracy compared to systems like the U. S. So there's the greatest beneficiaries of Medicare have been physicians. We shouldn't forget that.Kwadwo : 09:27 Yeah. I feel like it's so taboo, but we need to go there and I, I don't know what, will make us go there. What I'm getting at is what is our breaking point? Because baby boomers, are getting to prime time, health care, utilization, age, you know, we keep saying that we can't keep this up in terms of healthcare delivery and spending. So what's next? Like what do you see? What's going to happen in Canada in your, in your humble opinion?André Picard: 10:00 Well, you know, I think that we have to realize that healthcare is really important to us. Uh, we have to find a way of delivering it. And as I said before, we obsess a lot too much about the cost. Do we spend too much on healthcare? I am often asked that question and I always give the same glib response.André Picard: 10:16 I always say, I have no idea because I don't know what we're trying to achieve. So we just spend, you know, we spend the way we spend, we don't have any set public health goals in Canada. So unless you have goals, it's hard to save for we're getting, achieving what we're trying to do. So I think that's, we have to do some basic stuff.Kwadwo : 10:34 What kind of goals would you have us, would you have in mind?André Picard: 10:38 Yeah. So I look to many countries do this. So you look to a country like Sweden. So Sweden publicly publishes every year a list of its public health goals. So for example, I take one in Canada and Canada, we have an abysmally the high rate of child mortality compared to most of the world. So I would say in Canada, we want to bring our rate of child mortality from three per thousand to two per thousand.André Picard: 11:05 That would be a public health goal for me. And then we find out a way to do that and we spend the money that's necessary to do it. So that that's how you have, goals and then you work to achieve them. People often get uncomfortable when I say, "You know, we have to treat it more like a business." And that's what a business does. A business says, here's the goals for the year. Often those goals are related to profit, but we don't have, that doesn't have to be the goal in healthcare. The target, the goal can be, you know, we're going to ensure that our child poverty rate falls by X percentage points or that, the cesarean delivery is going to be less disparate from one end of the country to the other. So there's all kinds of goals you can set once you have goals. It's easier, I think, to, to figure out how to spend appropriately.Kwadwo : 11:48 You know where you're trying to go. You have purpose.Kwadwo : 11:53 Yeah. It's funny cause you always hear on a lot of whatever endeavors that you, you, you go on that, you know, you need to set goals and, and write them down or discuss them, be clear on what your objectives are. And it's funny if you asked me what, you know, what are the goals are Canadian healthcare system, that's not an easy question. Yeah. To make Canadians healthier or whatever. But is that really specific enough? Is that like, what does that actually mean? You know? Yeah. No, that's a, that's a great point.André Picard: 12:25 When I, when I do talk to, I often ask the audience, I say, what, what is the statement of purpose of Canadian Medicare? So we spend a quarter of a trillion dollars every year or $256 billion on healthcare. What is its purpose? So I often ask that to audiences and the question, the answer is always silence. So I tell them, you're right, we don't have any, you're all right. You don't just answer nothing. And when you put it in those terms, I think people go, "Wow, we spend all this money and we don't, what's the purpose of it?"Kwadwo : 12:54 Yeah, wow.Kwadwo : 12:56 I'm actually speechless because yeah, what really is our goals, you know? Yeah. I mean it's, even if you think about it in, in specific niches, like you know, when I'm in ICU, I know my goals are clear. When I'm in the Palliative Care, my goals are clear. You know, when they, when we look at a system level, it's not clear at all. You know, we might have a bunch of issues but we're not prioritizing them. We're just blanketly throwing money in and dealing with fires. Wow.André Picard: 13:29 And Palliative Care is a really good example. You know, you have very specific goals once the patient is there, but whatever. What are our goals as society to ensure that the right patients get there? In Canada between 17 and 35% of people who should have palliative care get it. We do a terrible job of ensuring people are treated well at end of life. And you know, I can't, it's hard to imagine something that's more important than alleviating people's pain at the end of life to not see them die a horrible death. And we just haven't, we don't have goals. We don't have, we haven't made that a priority. You know, again, it's the Canadian classic thing. Once you're in power, you know, you're in palliative care, we have fabulous Palliative Care. So many people are denied access to that, that it's criminal.Kwadwo : 14:16 Yeah, and the thing that people may or may not realize is even when it studied the benefits of early Palliative Care, like there's a study out, it's almost 10 years old now that it was stage four cancer patients got either early Palliative Care or just standard care up to the discretion of their team. And the patients that got early Palliative Care, not only were their symptoms improved, but they actually lived longer, ironically. And so, yeah, I mean you're definitely preaching to the choir in terms of Palliative Care resources. I mean, you know, when you, when you look at trying to improve the experience for the family, for the patient, making sure that the, you know, they're not suffering and you know, even from a resource point of view like the patients are less likely to occupy acute care beds as a result. It's just a, it is a bit mind boggling that this is not emphasized more.André Picard: 15:12 Yeah. And it's a reminder. What you're saying is reminder. I don't, I don't think we lack money. I don't think there's any lack of money in our system, we're one of the biggest healthcare spenders in the world. But I think it's how the money is allocated, is the problem. We don't spend smartly. We don't get value for money.Kwadwo : 15:27 This is, this is my, I mean, this is like my mission, Andre. It's like I see it day in, day out us putting in money into interventions that have no benefit. Even, there's a simple, this is a very simple example, but you know, I think it clarifies things you could have if someone comes into the ICU when they're, they need to be resuscitated with IV fluids. There's normal saline that you've, we've all seen that costs maybe a $1 .30 and then there's some more sophisticated fluids that cost about $50 to $60 for the same amount of volume.Kwadwo : 16:03 So 60 times a price with no, like if you could study it through the union, there was no additional benefit for you getting that fluid. You know, and we, we spent thousands on it and if there's no reason for it. You could have an oral antibiotic that's just as effective as an IV antibiotic, but people will still order the IV one because it makes it feel better. Throwing away money just cause, you know, for lack of understanding or just because of a lack of lack of a will to change, it's just, it's all over the place. And then instead we could be putting it into places that matter. That's a, this is, I don't know if this is what drives me nuts. You know, I see my physio-therapist position gets cut , I see my social worker position get cut, things that actually are going to make a difference into the patient experience and improving care.Kwadwo : 16:56 I'm going to have to cut these positions. Yeah. It's crazy to me.André Picard: 17:00 Yeah. And you remind me of, I remember visiting a unit for girls with eating disorders at a hospital and they had cut the psychological care so they were no longer getting psychological care. So what was the result is they ended up spending many more months in hospital. I had great, a tremendous cost, way more money than it costs to fund a psychologist. A different budget, et cetera. It's just a lot of irrational stuff like that happens and it just, it actually costs more money, not less. I know people, 90 year olds with dementia and cancer are getting a hip transplant. What's the good of that?Kwadwo : 17:36 Absolutely. It's and stuff that has been studied and we know are unlikely to benefit and we still offer it. And you know, I mean when you give that example of arguably who might be the most valuable person in an eating disorder ward, I would think it would be the psychologist. Wow.Kwadwo : 17:56 That reminds me, we did get a bunch of questions on Twitter when we were doing this show and, and one of them, you're a popular man. One question that like really stuck with me and, and I don't think there's an easy answer to this, is how do we break the cycle of these four year,Kwadwo : 18:18 cycles where governments are in power. And so they, the budgets are reflective of that. So there's so much sort short, shortsighted, you know, budget, budget, intervention cuts because we got to balance the budgets despite the fact that some of these cuts are gonna make things worse in the long run. Is there a solution to this problem?André Picard: 18:38 Well, again, yeah, I think there is a solution and again, we can learn from looking at other jurisdictions. I think one of the things that distinguishes Canada is the level of political micromanagement. So there's way too much interference from that. The Health Minister's office reacts to what's on the front page of a newspaper. That's how our system runs. It's like I always call our health ministers, firefighters instead of fire prevention officers, that's what they should be doing. They should be setting the philosophical goals, as I talked about before. These are the goals that we want to achieve and we should have professional administrators running the system so that, that's what I see when I go to countries in Europe, like the Netherlands and France, they're professionally managed. They're run like a business. And the government essentially keeps their nose out of it, and the public doesn't want their noses in it. So I think it's really to let the managers manage.Kwadwo : 19:30 Mmm.André Picard: 19:30 One of the worst jobs in Canada has to be a healthcare administrator because you have all this responsibility and you have no power and you're constantly second guessed by politicians. It's a terrible position to be in. So what do they do? They just cover their butts. They try and not make waves and we just go along, you know, try and keep quiet and nobody wants to catch the attention of the Ministry of Health because it's always going to be bad news. So I think it's this professionalization, that we have to aim for. And it's weird cause we don't do it in any other part of our government. You know, the Transport Minister doesn't call and tell the airport what flight should be going out. And that's, that's how it works in healthcare. It's absurd. So I think that problem is easily solvable, but it's going to take some, some political guts for people to say, listen, hands off, I'm going to let the, you know, Ontario Health. So, you know, say take Ontario Health, this new system, theoretically you should be able to do that. That should be an independent entity. Government gives them their allocation of money, go for it, run it that it should be run that that's how a system works in most countries and that's how it should work here.Kwadwo : 20:42 Have you seen a province, the healthcare system that works better than others?André Picard: 20:47 That's when I traveled around the country. I always know that's going to be the first question when I do a talk. I'm obsessed in Canada. Are we the worst or are we just sort of in the middle? That's everybody wants to be in a major of Canadians. So I think, I think the answer to it is we don't know cause we don't measure things very well. I think anecdotally we know that every province does some stuff really well. So we all have areas of excellence. I often describe Canadian Medicare as "islands of excellence in a sea of mediocrity". We have a lot of mediocrity. We have that but have a lot of great stuff. So New Brunswick has tremendous paramedicine. Manitoba has really good homecare. Quebec has really good primary care with CLSC's.BC has a really good handle on its drug program. So there's all of these provinces that do things well.André Picard: 21:37 And the frustrating things for me is we don't learn from each other and copy each other. We do quite the opposite. We always try to reinvent the wheel. But to get back to your initial question, who does it best overall? I'll just go with my gut feeling cause again, there's no measures, but I think these days, I think it varies. I think Alberta used to have by far the best health system, sort of a pioneered the regionalization model, and it does it really well. It allowed the regions to, to run in the way we talked about, you know, you're the boss and you run it and the government keeps its hands out and until the government started meddling again, that worked really, really well. So I think Alberta was a leader for a long time. I think now probably Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan is a really good size, but a million really good size too to run a system.André Picard: 22:26 Ontario is kind of a dog's breakfast. They're trying to fix this with a reorganization, but it's really the most disorganized system as a result. I think one of the ones with the, with the worst outcomes, unfortunately. I don't think there's a best and I don't think there's a worst, but there's a lot of good and there's a lot of bad overall. Unfortunately.Kwadwo : 22:45 No, I can appreciate your answer. I'm originally from Alberta and one of the things that was taking place before I left was single electronic medical health record. You know, they had this, I'm forgetting the name off the top of my head, but you know, taking the bull by the horns and saying, you know, this is ridiculous. We should all be under one system and oh it should, all hospital charts should be able to speak to each other to a certain extent.Kwadwo : 23:15 And this was, I mean this was in 2005 when I left, so yeah, I do. I could, I could see where you're coming from. And yeah, at the time they still had the like a health authorities is what they would call them. Like which pretty much had as you described, a free reign. Relatively speaking to, to work in the way that was most effective for their community. It's a really good point you bring up though. It's, you know, a little bit more independence for some of these administrators to, you know, to try and do the right thing for their, for the community and to be able to get to their needs. Yeah, I mean that's a, that's a fair point and that you don't hear about every day, but yeah, certainly in Ontario this is what we're attempting. All right. I'm going to ask you a bit of a controversial one too.Kwadwo : 24:02 Is there a party that you feel like since you've been doing this for 40 plus years, it seems to do a better job of this than others?André Picard: 24:11 Well, you know, the, I think one of the biggest problems in Canadian politics is that there's very little difference between the parties, violent agreement on, you know, essentially the status quo. And that's, to me, it's always frustrating to me during election campaigns, there's very little discussion of healthcare because there's no disagreement. Everybody sort of has this, well, Medicare is great and we don't want to talk about it attitude. NDP, Conservative, Liberal, all the same approach. And I think a lot of it goes back to there's a famous quote to attributed to Joey Smallwood, who is the premier of Newfoundland, one of the Fathers of Confederation. He once said that, "I've never had a discussion about healthcare that didn't lose me votes." To this day, politicians feel like that...André Picard: 24:56 You start talking about healthcare and it becomes a losing proposition because you can never satisfy everyone. So the parties kind of agreed to to say nothing. We have these little discussions around the edges occasionally because there's never any serious talk of performing healthcare regardless of the party. So short answer, no, there's not one that's better than the other. What we do know is that the lesser a party's chances of being elected, the more bold their promises are for healthcare. So that, that's the sad reality.Kwadwo : 25:24 Fair enough. Okay. I'm going to touch on a few more questions that some of the our friends were, were asking. So in terms of new cannabis legislation, what's your, your overall opinion on our approach?André Picard: 25:43 Yeah, so I've been long a proponent of, I, don't believe that, you know, drugs should be regulated the way they are now.André Picard: 25:51 I'm a big believer in, legalization of all drugs because I believe people are going to use them and we have to make it safe for them to use, and educate them, et cetera. So that's my premise that I operate from. Lots of people don't like that view, but I have a very libertarian view about drugs and I think it's viewed from a public health perspective, that that's the most rational approach. Now when we take cannabis, I think that legalization of cannabis was long overdue. We started discussing this in the 1970s with the Lyddane Report and finally two years ago we got around to legalization. Now what's happened since then? I think it's been kind of a bust in a bust economically, socially, medically because we've replaced this criminalization with a whole bunch of stupid regulations. There's way more laws about cannabis use now than there were before it was legalized.André Picard: 26:45 So it's kind of a, we've undermined what we were trying to do. From the business perspective, that's the story that gets the most attention in Canada is our cannabis companies are all going bust, because they're, the sales are not what they expected. We could have built an industry here that export it, its knowledge around the world, but, there's so much red tape and regulation that we've denied ourselves that, right. So, and I think we've kind of messed up this good idea. We've get it done it very, very badly unfortunately. So the reality is what the reality is, a lot of people still buy on the black market. The government stores have a product, but they have long wait lines. You know, there's the Canadian way. We wait for everything. We even wait for in line outside to buy our pot. So I think it's kind of been a huge disappointment, unfortunately.Kwadwo : 27:35 Yeah. It's, um, I do hear you about the, from a like a public help perspective on legalization cause certainly, you know, putting somebody in jail or putting them in a spot where they can't have a job based on a substance that people are going to use anyway. It seems, you know, um, not right. But my concern personally is the use, especially amongst the youth. Like I think there's some detrimental affects that maybe we're not appreciating. Like I know we see a little bit more psychosis in lead adolescence, early adult age. I just kind of wish it was studied a bit more before we're like, hey, you know, let's just throw it out to the world, but you know, I, do hear from the public health side for sure.André Picard: 28:27 You know the youth, the youth issue, whether it's cannabis, whether it's vaping, whether it's tobacco, that's a particularly challenging one.André Picard: 28:34 And those things are all illegal. It's always been illegal for young people. Probably always will be. And that's not the issue. That's not the way we're going to deal with that demographic. We have to, we have to teach them. Uh, we have to recognize that they're young people, so they're going to be risk taking. They're going to be experimenting and we have to deal with that reality instead of being moralistic about it and saying, "Oh, we've got to ban, vaping, we've got to ban cannabis." They're going to use it. So let's make sure that when they do they do it safely, uh, they do it rationally as much as possible for a teenager to do anything rationally. I think we just have to be much more pragmatic about this stuff. I think that's, to me, that's the big lesson I've learned about writing about public health for a long time is. ..André Picard: 29:15 You really have to put your opinions aside and be very pragmatic about this stuff and realize it's going to happen. So how do we make it as safe as possible? How do we reduce harm? Harm reduction has to be the driving force of our, our public policies. And the worst thing for harm reduction is, is prohibition. Prohibition is always failed regardless of the substance.Kwadwo : 29:37 Yeah. Fair enough. I guess it's always the question, which I guess we don't know. It's just, you know, what is that safe level? What is a, what is the amount or the approach that, you know, is truly reducing harm. But yeah, a lot of questions in terms of, you know, the approach. How about, another question that came up was regarding PharmaCare. I think you've, you've written a bit about PharmaCare and Canada. Oh, any thoughts on that?André Picard: 30:07 Yeah, so an issue we've written a lot about because it, it actually did get debated politically.André Picard: 30:12 Again, I think PharmaCare is necessary. We need to, you know, we're the only developed country aside from the U.S. that doesn't include drug coverage and our, and our universal health plan. So that's something that's needed to be fixed for 50 years. So we have to do that. So we've done it to a certain extent, but we've done it in a very haphazard way. So we have 102 public drug programs in Canada. We have to make some sense of that. We need some, some more centralization, more logic. But I think the really important thing that's lost in the PharmaCare debate is we have to define what we mean by PharmaCare. So we have a lot of people talking about, you know, we need this single universal system. Sure. That's one way of doing it to be, it's not necessarily that way, but the most important thing is what are we going to cover for who and why?André Picard: 31:02 So how are we going to get value for money, uh, for our drugs? And I think the way to do it is not to copy what we've done with, with the physicians and hospitals, we've covered those 100% and it doesn't work. We've had a lot of waste. We have a lot of, stuff that's not done because we spend too much in those areas. I think we have to be careful not to repeat the mistakes we've made earlier. I think we have to be a little smarter to decide what we're going to cover and that, that to me is the essence of the debate. There's no question that we should cover. Drugs are really important. If we're going to have universal healthcare, but universality doesn't mean covering every product for every person all the time. Ensuring that everyone has the essentials in an affordable way and those are different things .Kwadwo : 31:49 That certainly was one of the few healthcare related topics that came up during this past election.Kwadwo : 31:57 And that was a, it's funny, those are my exact thoughts when it came up, I'm like, what is, what does that actually, what does formal care actually mean? Like what are we actually debating here?André Picard: 32:09 Yeah, there was no, there was no real debate. There were a bunch of platitudes that were uttered, but that wasn't debate because they, the parties never defined what they meant. You know, they said, we're going to bring in, in this program, but what exactly is the program going to be? And then, the fact that the Federal parties were debating this, neglecting the fact that ultimately it's up to the provinces, that that was a big problem as well.Kwadwo : 32:32 Excellent. Excellent. So, okay, André, what are your thoughts on medical assistance in dying?André Picard: 32:38 Yeah. So another issue that we took a long time to deal with. So I started covering that issue in the early eighties.André Picard: 32:45 Then it got a lot of steam with the, in the early nineties with Sue Rodriguez kind of died off for awhile and then came back. So that again, we finally brought in this legislation to give people more choice at the end of life to minimize their suffering. So I think that was a really big important piece of legislation. Now the problem was that the legislation was, was flawed and it was inadequate and we, we've got to fix it. So we're at that point now. In fact, a new public consultations have just started about expanding the MAID legislation. So that's going to happen. The court has ordered it, but it's always frustrating with these issues, how slowly we go, how cautious the politicians are. Thank God we have an activist court in Canada. Or we, we'd have much worse health care. Of course, it forced us to do stuff that we know we should do, but politicians are too, too wimpy to do on their own.André Picard: 33:37 So I read the important issue. I think we have to recognize it. Very few people are ever going to get an assisted death. That's going to be one, 2% very tiny percentage. But I think it's a really important philosophical point, a theoretical point that people have choice that end of life. I think that's what's most important about this debate is giving patients more control. And I think that we're going to see that now we're going to see the really tough ones. Does that apply to people with dementia? Does it apply to people with mental illness? Does it apply to children? There's some really, really tough debates coming. But again, I, I stay in my bubble about being pragmatic. I think we have to give people options and then we have to ensure at the same time that there are protections. So that these things aren't abused.Kwadwo : 34:22 So basically what I'm hearing is we can't use this slippery slope argument as a reason not to implement this. People deserve to have that choice in terms of, how they want to end their life.André Picard: 34:37 I don't know how many times I've said in my columns that not every slope is slippery, but I think we actually remember that, that that's kind of a banal argument. Not every slope is slippery there is, we have to have buffers in place to ensure there aren't abuses, but that doesn't mean denying people rights to want them. No one should be forced to take, to have an assisted death when they don't want to. No one should be choosing assisted death for lack of alternatives like lack of Palliative Care, lack of long-term care. That's unacceptable. Not no one should be denied and assisted death who wants it?André Picard: 35:11 Who's making a rational choice? We can do all those three things at once. They are not mutually exclusive.Kwadwo : 35:19 Exactly. In your book "Matters of Life and Death" you touch on transgender issues. Where do you see some of these issues in 2020?André Picard: 35:30 Well, I think it's just an example of what we talked about at the outset, it's an evolution. You know, it's a new patient group, a new demographic that's standing up and being heard, and that the health system has to adjust. This notion of treating gay men was unthinkable in the 70s and 80s, no, they're a bunch of perverts, and we hear a lot of that same when you're around a long time, you start to hear these echoes and we hear that now about transgender, Oh, we can't possibly do that. We can't use different pronouns. Oh, the language has always been the same, but the things evolve.André Picard: 36:03 Language evolves. Medicine has to evolve and I think this is these developments are good. They challenge us, they force us to think differently. Unfortunately, there are abuses or wrongs that happen along the way that forces us to deal with this, but I think it's, it's a very positive development that we're talking about. Like gender fluidity, that the gender is a social construct. I think these are really important things for physicians and few for future physicians to think about and to talk about. And how do they treat their patients well regardless of their gender or how they identify.Kwadwo : 36:38 Super important topic and definitely one for a future episode. André, what about the wait times we're seeing overall whether in emerge or if you're waiting for a hip. Do you see any solutions in the near future?André Picard: 36:55 Yes. So again, I think wait times is the systemic issue.André Picard: 36:58 So it's about creating more flow in the system. It's about breaking the bottlenecks. You know, as we talked about earlier, at the long rates in our emergency rooms have very little to do with emergency care, right? They're all about bottlenecks. It's about inability to admit people, inability to, to get people out of hospital. We have this perversity in Canada called the ALC patients, (alternate level of care) patients who live in hospitals. I've done stories about this. I met a patient who's been living in a hospital for 10 years because there's no alternative for them. This makes no sense. It makes no sense from a business perspective and makes no sense from a patient care perspective. Ethically, all these things are wrong and we have to fix them. But you know, in some provinces, one third of all hospital beds, are ALC patients. They are people who have been discharged but have nowhere to go.André Picard: 37:51 So these are, this is how you deal with wait times is you deal with things across the spectrum. No easy solution. It can't be overnight, but we have to correct the errors we've made of of bad planning. You know, we all, we hear often and over and over again, Oh well,it's the aging boomers. You know, that's what's overwhelming our system. We've known about the boomers for 60 years. No surprise here. It's just a bad planning, lack of foresight. And we have to fix it.Kwadwo: 38:20 Agreed. But what can we do now? Like if I'm, you know, the Minister of Health or I'm a lead for a health authority and I got these tons of ALC patients, what can we do?André Picard: 38:33 Well, I think, again, if look at it and say from a business perspective, what do you do in a business if you have this problem? You have a mixture of carrots and sticks.André Picard: 38:42 So you start punishing hospitals that have ALC patients. Why did patients, you know, that perversity is that hospitals actually like having ALC patients because they require less nursing care. They're understaffed on nursing. They get paid the same amount of money, require less care. So it's actually a good thing for them, which is wrong. It shouldn't be a good thing. So you have to punish them financially. And that will solve the problem pretty quickly. They'll get them elsewhere. We have to incentivize people to have more long-term care homes. Most of our long-term care homes are private businesses and we have to ask ourselves why people don't go into this business. That's because the rates suck , it's because there's way too much regulations. We have to make it easier for people to provide spaces for people who need it. And then we have to deal with the other pieces of the puzzle, which is home care.André Picard: 39:30 I think we've, put far too many resources into people getting home care just to get them out of hospital quicker from short-term surgery and we haven't invested enough in the chronic part of the puzzle. So again, from a business point of view, way cheaper to care for those ALC patients in their homes costs a fraction of the cost. So take that money and use it differently. And if you don't do that, then you're going to be punished. So the carrot and stick approach, all this stuff is solvable. And I know it's solvable because I see, I don't see these problems in other countries around the world.Kwadwo: 40:05 Interesting. We kind of talked a bit about how to create change in healthcare and you do bring up the carrot and the stick. And I mean money talks. One of my main incentives to do research around costs is because that's the language that that's a change language.Kwadwo : 40:24 That's the language of administrators, of politicians. So if you could show a financial benefit for any intervention, like that's when things actually start to move. And so withholding funds so that change can occur. You know, I think it can go a long way, but certainly just sticking with the status quo is not good enough.André Picard: 40:48 But I would add the proviso that if you're going to have carrots and you're going to have sticks. People have to have accountability and they also have to have power. So you can't punish a hospital for having ALC patients, but not giving them the power to resolve it. I think, again, when you have a regionalization is supposed to be the solution to this, right? So the way a regionalization is supposed to work is that they should say, here's our overall budget. We're not spending it well by having these people living in hospitals, we should spend it on home care or we should spend it on long-term care facilities. So you have to have the power to move that money around and that that's how the issue will get resolved. Ultimately give people, accountability and power to fix things.Kwadwo: 41:29 I love it. You know, trusting in the people that you've invested into, trying to make the healthcare system better.André Picard: 41:36 We pay healthcare administrators a lot of money, let them administer.Kwadwo : 41:40 Mmm, no, that's, that's a great point, André. One thing I like to do is always end on a positive note and allow our guests to talk about a story or a time where they've felt that your job has had a big impact in general. And you did give this story earlierKwadwo : 42:00 about, um, you know, the AIDS patient in Toronto, but is there an any other time where you felt that you covering health care and being as engaged as you have been, that you've really made a difference?André Picard: 42:16 I think there's all those little stories like we talked about, you know, the one patient who, who got better care because of your story, little policy changes. Those are always moving. But to me there, to me, there are two big things in my career that stand out. I wrote for a long time about the tainted blood tragedy. So this came out of my coverage of AIDS. I started covering, you know, there were four groups who were infected with AIDS and one of them was always forgotten. This little group of hemophiliac and transfusion patients. So we started focusing on them and this became, this became a huge story. It became an exposure of one of the worst, probably the worst public health scandal in Canadian history. About 30,000 people were infected with HIV and hepatitis, not because of mismanagement of the blood system, because of lying to people because et cetera.André Picard: 43:06 I have a whole book length version of this rant, but, that issue that the tainted blood issue I think is one of my proudest moments because it really did bring relief to a lot of people. There was more than $5 billion in compensation paid out. Ultimately, our drug regulation system changed profoundly as a result of that. And I'm not taking credit for that solely, but we did get the ball rolling. So I think that's really important story in my, my legacy, if I could put it that way. And there's another one very similar, but on a smaller scale that a very touching one was a work that I did with my colleague on the, thalidomide survivors. So there's a group of five people who are affected by thalidomide in the 1950s, sixties, left with, you know, missing limbs, et cetera.André Picard: 43:54 Those folks live the long time suffering in poverty. And we came back to that a few years ago and wrote about these forgotten survivors. And again, the result was a quite a large compensation package. People getting their lives back, people who are forgotten, you know, we got to tell their story. And there's a lot of, a lot of touching, touching stories as a journalist to hear from that and when you actually change people's lives. So those are two of the biggies for me. But all the little ones day to day, you know, they, they keep you going.Kwadwo : 44:27 Yeah, no, I got to tell you, André, it's truly is a privilege to be able to have this conversation with you. And I could truly echo the amazing, inspiring work that you've done over the years that has impacted Canadians and people worldwide and given people a voice, increasing awareness on many health care related issues. And I got to tell you, I learned a ton today. You know, I got no political, no policy, game. I'm not educated from that front, but the things we talked about today was super eye-opening, especially like the silo stuff and the regionalization aspect of, of things like the way you framed it. And it's just, I don't know, there's a lot to digest and a lot to think about, but, you know, I'm hoping my listeners are feeling similar to me and feeling pretty inspired and I'm truly grateful that you took some time to do this and I hope to have you on again.André Picard: 45:30 A pleasure. And you know, I always remind people, you know, I, my job is to sort of summarize and to translate all this. I meet all these brilliant people and my job is sort of steal their ideas and make them pithy and accessible to the public. So I can't forget that I know nothing. I learned all this stuff from other people and I think my only skill is really being able to boil stuff down and simplify it and hopefully communicate it in a way that people can understand and act on.Kwadwo : 45:55 Yeah. Well I'll tell you it's working. Awesome. André, thank you so much. There's going to be links to all your books, your Twitter handle, everything in the show notes and, thanks again for doing this.André Picard: 46:07 Thank you. I look forward to it.Kwadwo: 46:09 Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to Episode 14 with André Picard. I hope you all enjoyed it. If you guys want to follow him on Twitter, it's @picardonhealth. If you want to follow or support this show on Facebook, on Twitter, on Instagram at Kwadcast, you could send comments to Kwadcast99@gmail.com and please let us know how we're doing. We were looking to always improve on the show, the five star rating on iTunes. If you're up for it, leave a review. Thanks again guys. We'll talk soon.  Please send your comments/feedback to kwadcast99@gmail.com

In this episode, we answer questions for our community about having children, birth control, how many kids to have and more.Please also take a moment and download our free 52 Date Night Ideas eBook.http://datenightideas.com PRAYERDear Lord,Thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate, what an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others who either have not had children yet or in awaiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in the way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we also pray for those who can’t have children for whatever the reason may be. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ FULL TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're gonna answer some of your questions about having children. - [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry onlinae for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - [Aaron] Love. - [Jennifer] And Power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chased boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Hey, everyone welcome back to another episode of Marriage After God. We're happy to be with you and we're really excited about this episode, and just being able to answer your questions. So doing Q&As is gonna be just an awesome new feature of the podcast where every couple of weeks, we're gonna poll our trusty community on Instagram and ask you guys what questions you have, and hopefully get some answers, well I should say opinions. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause we have all the answers. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] On everything. - [Jennifer] We don't but you know what, we're happy to explore these questions with you. And so thank you to everyone who shared these questions with us, and specifically about about having kids which we have a little bit of experience with. And so we'll dive into that in just a bit. All right, so one thing that we really are excited to share with you guys is that we have a new freebie for all of you. - [Aaron] So everyone has already did the free prayer challenge. - [Jennifer] Right. - [Aaron] They already got the date night conversations. - [Jennifer] You better, we've been sharing about those two for a while. So I begged Aaron, and I was like, "Let's do something new. "We've gotta do something new." - [Aaron] So this one is date night ideas. It's a free download. It's a list of 52 date night ideas which you could do one a week for the whole year. - [Jennifer] So is this something we're committing to? We're gonna go through all of these and do them? - [Aaron] Sure. - [Jennifer] Let's do it. - [Aaron] Let's see how it goes. - [Jennifer] I think that would be so fun. - [Aaron] So if you wanna get this freebie, this download, you just go to datenightideas.com and you can download our free ebook with 52 date night ideas. - [Jennifer] And the goal is one a week but if you can't do one week, do three a week. It's fine-- - [Aaron] If you have to do one a day, you know what, you can get done faster-- - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. - [Aaron] And just do it all over again. - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. No, but you can use these whenever you want and you can even sift through them and pull from it. - [Aaron] You know what would be fun is if they downloaded this and then found another couple to do a challenge with. How many they can get done in a year? - [Jennifer] Interesting, the other thing you could do is print them out and cut them out and stick them in a jar and pull them out randomly. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] That would be fun. - [Aaron] That's a great idea. Datenightideas.com, one word and it's free. Go get it, so the topic we're talking about, these Q&As, they're all on a similar topic. We polled our followers on Instagram and many of the questions were around children. Having children, children after marriage. - [Jennifer] So we're like let's stick them all in one episode so we can hit them all at once. - [Aaron] And so we're just gonna, some of these we're gonna wing answering. If we don't have good answers, we might say we don't know. We're not afraid to say we don't know. - [Jennifer] And just keep in mind that these are just our positions on these questions. How we would answer them based off of our experience and knowledge and-- - [Aaron] And things that we know of the Bible. - [Jennifer] Things that we know of the Bible and what we believe in so-- - [Aaron] Take it for what it is. - [Jennifer] Yeah and thank you guys again for asking these questions and sharing them with us and we really appreciate that. If you wanna jump on board for the next Q&A, just follow along on Instagram @marriageaftergod. - [Aaron] And you can always send us your questions in a message and we may not answer it in the message but we'll take down the question and potentially answer it in a future Q&A episode. We'd love to get those from you. So why don't we just jump right in to the first question and this is a doozy I feel like 'cause it's controversial, it could be. - [Jennifer] It could be yeah. - [Aaron] And they ask us their question and they said, our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] So what's your view on birth control? - [Aaron] That's a good question. - [Jennifer] It's a big question. - [Aaron] Okay, next question is, no I'm just kidding. Our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] Let me share my point of view first. - [Aaron] Okay, go ahead. - [Jennifer] I'll just be honest. I went on birth control 'cause that's what I heard you do when you get married. And so I went on the month before I got married and I chose to go off of it a month after we were married. So I was on it for a total of two months and I got married at 21, you were 22. And we were so excited married and so excited to-- - [Aaron] Be with each other physically. - [Jennifer] Yeah, experience what sex was like and it was awful. I'm just gonna be honest. It was very painful for me and so I scrambled, you guys. I tried to figure out why is my body responding this way because it was my body that was keeping us from experiencing-- - [Aaron] Physical intimacy. - [Jennifer] Healthy, physical intimacy. And so one of the things that came to my mind was something that was super obvious because over the course of that month of being married, not only were we having these issues but I gained a lot of weight. I got acne. - [Aaron] There was a lot of things going on. There was emotional stuff. - [Jennifer] Emotional ups and downs and mood swings and it was awful and I didn't feel myself. And so the obvious question then is what happened in the last few weeks that has changed me? - [Aaron] Other than getting married. - [Jennifer] I know it's a big transition. - [Aaron] I that that guy you married can make you feel crazy, I get it. - [Jennifer] But we narrowed it down to birth control and so I chose to go off of it and I haven't regretted it. - [Aaron] And it didn't fix everything but it did actually drastically change your mood. - [Jennifer] And some of the physical things that I was-- - [Aaron] Some of the physical things you were experiencing. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] So that's an experience you had with birth control. We know tons of people use birth control. I also know that there is certain people that say birth control is a sin. I'm not gonna go that far. I'm not gonna make statements like that. What I will say is I'm not an advocate for opting to put a chemical in your body to adjust and manipulate how your body is naturally meant to work. So that's my, you're meant to do a certain thing. Your body has been created to do a certain thing and birth control is meant to stop that thing from happening, to manipulate the way your body responds to certain things and I don't think that's great. We have a lot of stuff going on this world. A lot of sickness, a lot of problems and for us to be healthy and to do something like that to our healthy body, I don't think is very wise, personally. - [Jennifer] So just to clarify for those listening, you're not saying that you won't put anything on or in your body that helps stimulate positive things to happen in your body. You're saying, you wouldn't do something that would stop the natural function of your body. - [Aaron] I'm saying I don't think it's a good idea to put something in our bodies electively to stop the natural. - [Jennifer] That alters the natural. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause there's, again, I'm not gonna. The question is about all the other things that happen in this life, we know taking things when you're sick. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say there's supplements and there's oils and there's things that are out there. - [Aaron] Right, that's different than I'm gonna take this birth control to stop my ovulation so that we don't get pregnant. I'm not gonna do that. That's just my personal perspective on this. And to be honest, there's most things like medically that I'm a little hesitant on just because I like to stay mostly natural as much as possible. But this is about birth control. I'm just saying that taking a woman's body, putting something in it to stop her from doing what it's naturally meant to do doesn't sound wise to me. Now on the spiritual side of things, we have to always ask ourselves the question of why are we trying to stop ourselves from having kids? Why are we trying to protect against that? And there's tons of worldly wisdom that we receive on why we should wait and what, there's this and that. And don't you wanna travel? Why don't you establish your marriage first? And none of those things line up with the things that we hear about in scripture about children being a blessing. That it's good for women to have children. People prayed when they were barren because they wanted children and all these positive. It's positive, positive, positive but our generation and the last couple of generations has heard the message of negative. Children are a hindrance. Children get in the way. Children are difficult, they're expensive. They're hard, some of these things are all true. Not all of them but some of these things are true but not in the sense of they're not a blessings. Not in the sense of we shouldn't do it. I think we should always be asking ourselves about our heart posture towards children because God's heart posture towards children from the words of Jesus. "Let the children come to me", that's what he said. - [Jennifer] I love that, that's so beautiful. - [Aaron] Don't hinder the children. - [Jennifer] That's really good. I was gonna say that personally, we think that it needs to be thoughtfully considered not just in its physical impact on someone's body but its spiritual impact. And I think you just hit it on the head with being a heart posture. - [Aaron] Absolutely. - [Jennifer] And asking ourselves why. - [Aaron] Yeah and what do we believe about God? Is he good? Does it give us good things? And has he made us a certain way? And yeah those are all true. So we don't believe in birth control, the chemical form. I would say do any form of birth control, and we're about to have our number five so everyone can logically find out, we don't do birth control. We would probably lean towards just what's it called? The rhythm method? - [Jennifer] Natural planning. - [Aaron] Natural planning. And again, that's not even perfect. It's more of to our own abilities, we're just gonna try and plan around this and if God gives us a child, we're gonna be stoked. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right let's move on to number two. Okay number two says, what made you wait to have kids? - [Aaron] Made us is a good word because half of it was physical. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say this is a two parter for us. - [Aaron] We just talked about how we couldn't have sexual intimacy. - [Jennifer] Yup. - [Aaron] So it was not impossible but highly unlikely 'cause it was . - [Jennifer] We weren't doing the thing that makes the babies. - [Aaron] Yeah, the thing that makes the babies wasn't happening so there was no babies being made. And then the second part of that is, and this might have been out of a bitterness because we couldn't be with each other. I have feeling that some of it was from that bitterness but also some of it just straight from our own selfish pride. We would tell people, they would ask us when are you guys gonna have kids? And we'd be like, oh we're not gonna have kids for a while or maybe ever because we're too selfish. - [Jennifer] We like sleeping in. - [Aaron] We like traveling. We like this, we like that. We said these things out loud. This isn't thoughts we had. - [Jennifer] And I would agree. Some of it was probably just to give them an answer 'cause we weren't gonna straight dig into well, we can't have sex. So we found a different way to answer it but I think at the core, we truly believe those things as well. We were selfish. - [Aaron] I remember I would pridefully say it like it was something to boast about. - [Jennifer] Looking back-- - [Aaron] You are too selfish. - [Jennifer] Looking back that's so embarrassing. - [Aaron] I know what a fool I was that I would actually say that. God's looking at me at like I know who you are. - [Jennifer] I love you Aaron. - [Aaron] I was like a little child to him and he's patient with me, thank God. But what a fool that I would just boast about my selfishness which is opposed to God, to be selfish. I was literally boasting about my opposition to God. - [Jennifer] I wanted to share a little bit about this question. What came to my mind is well the physical. We couldn't and the selfish but I was also really terrified of having children and I don't remember it being a super affirmed thing growing up. And even though I came from a big family, it wasn't like I had this dream to have a big family myself. - [Aaron] And it wasn't like children are good. Children are a blessing. All you saw was there's all of this chaos at home sometimes. - [Jennifer] Yeah, so I remember just being really scared about having children. And so I was actually okay with not having children for a long time if any. I didn't have a hearts desire to have children. - [Aaron] And I actually, now you bring that up. I remember specifically a thought I had and I had it regularly was I didn't want children because we couldn't be together. All I thought I was like yeah that would be so perfect. We'd get pregnant the one time we do come together and then now like we couldn't enjoy each other, and now we have a kid. This totally negative connotation on having children because it was just gonna get in the way of the thing I wanted. - [Jennifer] Yeah and I think we talked about that even back then. Something that I didn't talk to you about that I really struggled with was the thought that if in that turmoil, those first three years if we did have a kid how much more it would tie me to you which is really depressing and sad to think about. I just am broken-hearted over those kinds of thoughts now. - [Aaron] But that's when we were in our sinful hearts. - [Jennifer] But that's where I was and I didn't have hope in our marriage. I truly believe that we're coming to the end so it was like I have to make sure even more that I don't get pregnant which was avoiding you. - [Aaron] Which made the whole thing worse. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it was a mess, you guys. - [Aaron] The devil is good at what he does. And it's why we have to resist him and it's why we have to put on the full armor of God 'cause these thoughts and things will come if we're not focused right. - [Jennifer] Now I have a part of this question to ask you. It has to do with this question, that's not here but would you have waited if you could have sex? - [Aaron] Back then? Well probably 'cause again I had my selfish heart of I thought tons of horrible things. I was thinking about your body and I was thinking about our sex, and I was thinking about being inconvenience with now I have to raise a child, and we're doing all these things. So absolutely, I think back then, selfishly would have waited. Not because I thought it was wise but because I didn't want to have to deal with it. - [Jennifer] Okay and I was thinking more like answering now having had children. - [Aaron] No, I wished we didn't have waited. - [Jennifer] I like that you're answering really honestly. - [Aaron] No, if I knew what I know now. - [Jennifer] I wouldn't have waited. - [Aaron] We'd have a 13-year-old. - [Jennifer] That's weird to think about. - [Aaron] How incredible would that be? We'd have a teenager. - [Jennifer] Wow, lots more growth opportunities for us. - [Aaron] No, I wouldn't have waited at all but to be honest it's God's sovereignty. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] He knew who we were. Our sin kept us away from it and it's probably better back then because we had some maturing to do. Not that I'm telling anyone they should choose to wait. I just think God knew what he was doing and he let us through a lot of stuff to grow us and make us into the men and women he wanted us to be. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right. Number three, do you think numbering your children is necessary? - [Aaron] Yeah, I'd give a 10 to Elliott and then like all if I give-- - [Jennifer] What are you talking about? - [Aaron] I'm just kidding. Numbering, I'm thinking like . - [Jennifer] That's not what they're asking. - [Aaron] Numbering, the question is about should we have one, two, three, how many should we have? - [Jennifer] I was gonna change the question to what we usually get is what number do you guys want or what are you looking for? Because we do get asked that. - [Aaron] Yeah and it's usually with this like are you done yet look. Do you realize how many you have? We know exactly how many we have. So the question is do you think numbering your children is necessary? And I'm imagining the heart but it is do you think it's important to consider how many children we're having? Should we only have one or two or three? That's a pretty common thought. Most of the time, it comes in the form of, we only one, two or three. That's where that comes from. So Jennifer, do you think it's necessary. That's how the question is phrased. - [Jennifer] No, I don't think it's necessary. I don't think that we need to have a set number and we personally don't have a set number. - [Aaron] Our answer when someone asks, how many do you want is whatever God wants. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] Because to be honest, I don't know. - [Jennifer] To couple with that though, I do think that there's wisdom in every situation and so what I like to say is we take every pregnancy as it comes. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] Submit it to the Lord-- - [Aaron] And in between the pregnancies, we submit those to the Lord as well. - [Jennifer] Yeah, and you know what, it's a journey of walking with God saying God I trust you and it's not easy but-- - [Aaron] And I'll say this. - [Jennifer] He's doing this. - [Aaron] I'm gonna be a little candid here. There was a challenge after we had was it? - [Jennifer] Elliot. - [Aaron] Elliot and we went right back to that place in our hearts of we don't want any more. Elliot was difficult. It was our first child. - [Jennifer] He had colic. - [Aaron] He had colic for a couple months. - [Jennifer] I had nursing issues. - [Aaron] It was really difficult. And we just were like no, we can't do this any more. This is crazy, we are also-- - [Jennifer] Honestly-- - [Aaron] Publishing a book and we're thinking like how we're gonna do all this stuff and have another baby and everything was coming together. - [Jennifer] When I look back on it too, I don't remember it being a negative feeling. I just remember being okay with it being one. - [Aaron] We're like, we're fine. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] But again from all selfish positions. How are we gonna keep doing these things? That was too hard, I don't wanna do that again. And we were challenged by someone really hard and I'm gonna just explain to you what was challenging to us, and I'm gonna leave it at that. And they came to us and we were just sharing our hearts with them. And they very softly and gently said, you know the reasoning that you were coming to with this deciding not to want any more. And he brought up, is like it's usually for Christians, we say things like we want one, some or none. And it's like that sounds great. It sounds wise. One summer night, I'm gonna choose the size of my family. I think that's wise based off of whatever. Then they said that's very similar to the reasoning that pro-choicers have. It's your choice. Christians aren't gonna choose the abortion option right, hopefully. That's where the heart of a Christian shouldn't be that direction at all. We don't do that. But one, some or none is very similar and it's my choice. Pro-choice, I get to choose what I want. And he's explaining this to us and it cut us to the heart, and we realize wow, we're telling God, who's in charge of this area of our life. We want God to be sovereign in every area of our life except for this one. And so when they were explaining to us that we were essentially making decisions very similar to the idea of pro-choice. It's our choice and I want it to be pro-me whatever I want. And it really challenged us and it actually made us go and pray and dig into what we believed about children, and what we believed about our family, what God wants for us. - [Jennifer] I remember shortly after that conversation maybe even walking out of the restaurant, I told you that as I was sitting there listening, I could picture myself holding my hand shut tight and it was me as a Christian telling God, you are sovereign, you have every part of my life. I love you, lead me oh but you can't have this over here. - [Aaron] Don't touch this over here. - [Jennifer] And I was gripping it so tightly and I remember explaining this picture to you and just saying I feel like God wants me to open up my hands and trust Him. And I feel like we got pregnant about a week and a half later. - [Aaron] Yeah really quick. - [Jennifer] Really quick. - [Aaron] And I'll say this. It's easy to say, hard to do. Every single pregnancy we've had to go to God and say God, we need your help. We need to trust you more. We need to know what you have for us because it's difficult. Pregnancy is difficult. Children are difficult. It's just part of life so it's not like all of a sudden everything became rainbows and unicorns. It was like we have to trust God every single time which is what he wants. And then I'll say this as gently as possible 'cause I know the person that asked this question. I'm not trying-- - [Jennifer] There's a lot of people out there that asked. - [Aaron] There's a lot of people who have this question. I think the question is irrelevant and here's why I say that. You can say I want three kids and God only give you two. Is God wrong? Nope, I God bad? No. - [Jennifer] You could want two kids and never be able to conceive. - [Aaron] You could want one kid and never be able to conceive. You could want whatever you want. We could desire whatever we want. We can have this picture for our life and it's so perfect that oh if we just had a boy and a girl, you have six girls. I know people like that, okay. You could say lots of things. - [Jennifer] You can say you don't want any kids and then get pregnant. - [Aaron] We know people that are on birth control and I've gotten pregnant. We know people that have been barren for years. - [Jennifer] And have gotten pregnant. - [Aaron] And then have gotten pregnant. We know people that have had their tubes tied and then unfortunately have still gotten pregnant and had to have surgery because of the dangers of that. - [Jennifer] We also know the word of God and in Psalms when it talks about God knitting together a baby, a human inside a mother's womb, we know that's true. So it's from Him. - [Aaron] What we wanna do is we wanna say instead of asking well how many do we want? What's wrong with saying, God how many do you want? What do you want our family to look like? How do you want us to shape our family? You could say you want two children, right? And you have those two children and you stop, and there's no way for you to know that that third child was gonna be another Moses, another David. You don't know what God wants for you. So that's why I think that question is a little irrelevant because you think you have control. - [Jennifer] This is what the question should be. Do we trust what you have for us Lord? - [Aaron] Yeah and if that's a zero, and that doesn't mean that doesn't come with heartbreak but if it's zero, then God gets to choose that. If it's one, then God gets to choose that. Me and Jennifer are on number five and this could literally be our last child. We have no way of knowing. Something would happen. We could just not get pregnant again. Things happen or we could have another five. I don't know. But we want to trust the Lord with everything. I wanna encourage you to do the same. Whether that's zero, one, two, three, five, 10. That's the question we should be asking. Number four, what's the best way to prepare for or not be fearful of having a newborn? This is a good one 'cause we're literally right there. - [Jennifer] Yeah and you know what fear is a natural thing and it always comes with that feeling of I don't know what's on the other side of labor, or delivery, or having a newborn, and I struggled with all those fears. But when I look back and I think about my first baby, holding him in my arms, it's the most beautiful, miraculous thing I can think of. - [Aaron] And you don't necessarily look back and dwell on the pain. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] You know it's there. - [Jennifer] I know it happened. - [Aaron] You look back and we think about those-- - [Jennifer] The joy and the love and the incredible miracle that comes with having a child. And I think that we should also just note that this probably whoever asked this question is going to give birth to a baby but I think even for adoption. When you think of the other ways that people build their families. I think there's a lot of fear that comes. A lot of fearful thoughts that could come with the unknowns but we just wanna be an encouragement to you guys that you're not alone. God is with you and do everything in prayer. The Bible tells us to pray without ceasing, to pray constantly. - [Aaron] To pray for everything. - [Jennifer] To pray for everything and to be thankful. And so I think the first way that I would respond to this question is pray, and pray with your spouse. Pray together over your family and over every situation. - [Aaron] Present those fears to the Lord and say Lord, here's some things I'm afraid of. Give me peace, give me your peace. That's what he tells us to pray for everything. With thanksgiving, lift your request to Lord. - [Jennifer] And the other thing I would say is meditate on his Word. What does God say about children? What does God say about birth? What does God say about families? Things that comes to my mind is John 16:21. It says, "When a woman is giving birth, "she has sorrow because her hour has come "but when she has delivered the baby, "she no longer remembers the anguish "for joy that a human being has been born into the world." That's what I remember. - [Aaron] That's an awesome statement by the way. For joy that a human being has been born. That's so cool and it is true because the pain is real. It's a thing you get to experience. You can talk about that in a second about experiencing the pain but you remember the joy of that child, holding the baby, seeing their face for the first time hearing their coos for the first time. - [Jennifer] I know I said this. It's miraculous, it truly is. - [Aaron] Yeah and seeing them grow up is miraculous too. I can't imagine my life without any of these kids. - [Jennifer] I know and I feel so grateful that the Lord trusted me and gave me these gifts. It's so wonderful. Another verse that comes to my mind and something good to dwell on is Psalm 127:3. It says, "Behold children are a heritage from the Lord. "The fruit of the womb, a reward." - [Aaron] So preparing yourself for having a newborn is you're preparing to have a reward and to build a heritage that he's giving you. That's really cool. - [Jennifer] A good resource for becoming new parents, you should check out "Redeeming Childbirth" by Angie Tolpin. It was just a really good book to bring perspective to having children and what that looks like biblically. So if you wanna check that out just go to courageousmom.com. One last thing that I just wanna encourage you guys with, and this you can do prior to having your first baby but you should also be doing it throughout parenting, and that's just talking about those fears with your spouse whenever they come up. And using those opportunities to encourage one another. If the wife is afraid, the husband can go to the word of God and console her and comfort her and encourage her. If the husband has some fears and he's being vulnerable about them, she can encourage him through the word of God and through prayer, and I just think that is so vital for us to be one in the way that we are experiencing the same thing, right parenthood. And another thing you could do is find someone who you admire, who has experience that you can ask questions to. I know as a new mom, I had so many questions. I still have so many questions. And so finding someone who you can be in communication with even if it's just a quick text or if you can get into community with several people who you can have questions too, and really just have that support system. It's really important - [Aaron] Yeah and that actually leads into our last question, number five really well. This person asked us if we can talk about the best ways to invest in our spouse before having kids. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] Which is a cool thing because we could have done this. - [Jennifer] I know we did this for, no, we should have been doing this for years. The first thing that comes to my mind is having regular date nights and when you don't have kids and you're married, it can be so easy to just make everything feel like a date because you're with each other but making it significant somehow. - [Aaron] Getting it on the calendar, making it a regular occurrence. - [Jennifer] And doing something out of the norm, right? So like if you guys regularly already do something together, don't consider that your date. Go do something else. - [Aaron] Yeah, and what's good about that is it puts you into a really healthy pattern and habit so that after the kids, you guys will long and be like, hey, we need to get back on track. - [Jennifer] Not after the kids are grown and raised, you mean after having kids. - [Aaron] I'm saying after six weeks of healing and getting better. You guys are like, hey, we need to get back on schedule with our date nights, that's important. And for awhile, you're gonna have the baby with you and then eventually you'll get a baby sitter. But you start that up and it's there. It's existing. - [Jennifer] And just to encourage you guys, we've gone on dates with babies before and it can be done. - [Aaron] Just find those restaurants that-- - [Jennifer] Are really loud. - [Aaron] Either really loud or mostly full of older couples 'cause they love seeing young couples with their babies. - [Jennifer] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Some restaurants don't like it but the experience we've had, we have people come up and be like, oh, your baby's so wonderful. This is so cool seeing a couple with children now. Anyways that's a good tip. For the husband's preparing your spouse before kids just doing what a Ephesians five says, "Washing your wife with the Word." Continually speaking God's truth into her life over her reminding her what the word of God says, reminding of her of who she is, what she's capable of, how God made her and building her up because those are the things that are gonna continually give her confidence. Make her feel like she can be a mom that she can handle pregnancy and labor and that she is going to be a victor in that area. So it's immensely powerful the words that a husband speaks over her life which is why we're commanded to wash our wives with not any words but the Word. With God's Word, reminding her of who she is, what God's doing in her life. That the thing that she's going to do. Having a child is such a powerful and beautiful thing that as she disciples that child, she's literally making world changers. Growing the Kingdom of Heaven within your home. It's a powerful thing. - [Jennifer] That's awesome, I love that. Another thing that I would say and this is something to continually do throughout your marriage, but to get really good at it is practicing transparency. Aaron and I talk about this a lot and it's something that I feel like we were actually pretty good at in our marriage but could have been even better way sooner at, and that's just being transparent and honest with one another when you're struggling with sin. You confess that you repent. When you're wrestling with insecurities or doubt or frustrations, you talk about it and you find a way if you're at conflict with one another, you reconcile. All those really important-- - [Aaron] Getting better at those things. - [Jennifer] Communication things. - [Aaron] Which will be huge for your children to see and to benefit from. - [Jennifer] And your parenting because there's gonna be a lot of situational things that come up that you'll have to be transparent with one another in and talk about so that you're on the same page when you parent. - [Aaron] Which leads into the other thing, and this is hugely important. Overcoming sin and bad habits. So for the husbands, if you guys are struggling with pornography, and you think it's just like not a big deal. And you're like, oh it's every once in a while. Just realize what you do, you're gonna teach your children. And I wish I would have known that earlier. I wish I would have recognized the the magnitude of walking in what I saw as hidden sin or things that I was getting a handle on. But it's just every once in awhile, it's not that big of a deal, minimizing those things. Maximize them, take those things in your life and say no, I need to get this out of my life. I'm not gonna smoke any more. I'm not gonna show my kids that habit. The way I eat. The hidden sins of my life, pornography. The way I talk. If you have issue with bad language. Those are things that you're gonna teach your kids and so work on it. Confess them, find freedom from them. Walk in the freedom that Christ has already given us on the cross and walk in it so that you can teach your kids to walk in it. The same freedom. - [Jennifer] Have authority in their lives. - [Aaron] Yeah as a pastor once told me, purity is power. Walking in purity is powerful. Say that last line right there, babe. - [Jennifer] I just put a note on here. Have children, because the question was how do you invest in your spouse before having kids. - [Aaron] Which can be-- - [Jennifer] It could be any range of things. It could maybe you're already pregnant and you're just waiting for the baby to come but it could also be we chose not to have kids right now, so what can we be doing? Well I'll tell you what, if there's one thing in Aaron's and I life that has stimulated growth in our relationship-- - [Aaron] That God's used to sanctify us in huge ways. - [Jennifer] Absolutely, or to just grow closer to each other in opportunities in ways that we never would have known or experienced, it was through having children. And so I've really appreciated that about our journey and where we've been, and so hopefully that just encourages you guys. - [Aaron] Those are five questions that we received from the community. Again we're not the end-all be-all to these answers but we try the best of our ability to look at the word of God, to look at experience and see how God is trying to change the way we think about things. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, answering the questions is not easy for me. I'm a peacemaker and I don't wanna ruffle anyone's feathers or ever put things out there that make people feel uncomfortable, but at the same time I want you guys to know where Aaron and I are on some of these topics because you're you're listening in, you're following us. And for whatever reason, God has trusted us with an opportunity to share these with you. And so I hope that through our experience and through the things that we have shared with you today, if anything, you get to go back to the table with your own spouse and talk about them, and share your own perspectives, and thoughts behind them. And we just encourage you to, like Aaron said, get in the scriptures and dive into what God has to say about these and let that be the foundation for what you believe and your your viewpoints and your perspectives on some of these topics. - [Aaron] 1 John tells us to test every spirit and to discern. So don't just take what we're saying as pure gold. Go yourself to the word of God and find them out. But if you're not willing to go to the word of God, and you just wanna disagree and have your own opinion, you have to understand something that we're not called to just do that. We're called to trust the word of God. And so I wanna challenge you if you are in that place, go to word of God. Take the things we've said and go dig in. Find out what God thinks about all these questions. What God thinks about children in the womb and raising children. You find out for yourself and come up with your own conclusions based off of what the word of God says, not off of what we say. But we love you, and as always win in prayer so please join us. - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate. What an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others to either have not had children yet or are in waiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in a way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we pray also for those who can't have children for whatever reason maybe. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified in Jesus' name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen. And guys as always, I just wanna invite you to leave us a review, a star rating. We love those. They're incredibly powerful and effective in spreading the word about the podcast. We love you all and we pray that you guys would just grow closer to God and you chase his will for your life and get his heart on the matter of children. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Well I'll be like a chunk of ice melting off the doorknob at the end of a long ski vacation Lets look at movies and shows about the intriguing phenomenon of whistle blowers. Lets look at some great examples in film and streaming: Brittany Kaiser and Christopher Wylie in The Great Hack. A tobacco executive in The Insider, Journalists and their editor in Shattered Glass. Lets go through our listener mailbag. The work of Steve Zahn and Billy Zane will figure prominently in today's quiz questions.And Brad, Donnie and I will bring you some lilting music from Grondle to close the showCatch Brad's latest work at www.bradcolerick.com. This weeks music at the Blue Guitar in the Arroyo at South Pasadena Wednesday Jan 22 7:00pmLicity Collins, Bernie Larsen,Thursday Jan 23 7:00pmAdam Levy, Raph Humphrey, Carey Frank Organ Trio

What's a better way to end 2019 than with a total shit show? Well I'll tell you, it's by losing the first shit show and then recording a new one. That's what this show is.... We still had fun having BOTH of our wives in "studio" and hanging out.  We talked about everything from recapping the last decade to what our plans are for 2020. So kick back relax and let us help you ring in the New Year by laughing in our faces! In all seriousness, we hope that you and yours have your best year yet and thank you so much for your support! It really does mean the world to us! Happy New Year!   - Brian and Zack 

Well I'll be darned, Netflix Book Club No. 92 is the Netflix original Legacy of a Whitetail Deer Hunter! No guest this week but it doesn't matter. This is...an interesting one. The movie, the podcast about the movie..they're both riveting. But only one involves an interracial gangbang. You're gonna have to do SOMETHING to figure out which. Anyway Thanos is a hillbilly alcoholic who probably loves his kid, and that's the bottom line, son. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, throw us an honest review on iTunes, like the Facebook page, send us hate-snail-mail!

Brian Anderson:               The function of leadership is to produce more leaders, not more followers. Ralph Nader. I am Brandon Anderson and I'm a Tri-Cities influencer. Paul Casey:                         And if we must assume the only thing I would say is to assume positive intent. So if there's a gap between why that person behaved as they did and you don't know the answer, fill in that gap with positive intent and check it out. Speaker 3:                           Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities in Eastern Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast where Paul Casey interviews local leaders like CEOs, entrepreneurs, and nonprofit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams so that we can all benefit from their experiences. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services, coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey:                         Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Jane Winslow. She is the creative director and brand strategist of WinSome, Inc. And a fun fact about Jane, she said, if we really get her laughing, we might get a snort. Well, before we begin, let's check in with our Tri-City Influencer sponsors. Neal Taylor:                        Hello. My name is Neil Taylor. I am the managing attorney for Gravis Law's commercial transactions team. The CT team helps business owners, investors, and entrepreneurs accelerate and protect their business value. Today we're talking about employment law and alcohol and cannabis licensing. Josh Bam and Derek Johnson are both here with me now to describe those practice areas. Take it Derek. Derek Johnson:                 Thanks Neil. I'm Derek Johnson, partner at Gravis Law. We find that many employers in Washington State simply don't have handbooks, employee policies, or any other written materials to protect themselves and their employees. Without having these types of policies in place, an employer can run into trouble by firing employees even if the employee isn't properly performing or causing issues at work. Even if an employer fires someone for performance issues, for example, but fails to take the proper steps, they may run into trouble by inadvertently exposing themselves to a wrongful termination suit. We build strong, predictable and protective employee policies to protect our client's business. Josh Bam:                            That's true. Thanks Derek. And having employment policies in place when you're dealing with cannabis or alcohol licensing is especially important. We know that clean employment policies, clean corporate structure, and having an attorney that can work with the Washington State Liquor and Cannabis Board is critically important to protecting your business through licensing. The attorneys at Gravis Law have this experience. Visit us today, www.gravislaw.com Paul Casey:                         Thank you for your supportive leadership development in the Tri-Cities. Well, welcome Jane. I was privileged to meet you... Boy, how many years ago has that been now? Maybe like eight, seven or eight years ago. Jane Winslow:                   I don't do dates well, so probably. Paul Casey:                         Yeah, I was doing these events called The Edge, where a guy named Preston House who was one of our very first podcast guests. He said, "Let's combine pizza and professional development." And I went, wow, I've never thought of that. But he goes, "I want to platform you and the good stuff you're doing." I thought, wow, I'm just so humbled that you'd be, that sacrificial about it. And we had Edge number one, I think there ended up being 15 of them and Edge number one, he introduced you to me and me to you. Jane Winslow:                   Yes he did. Paul Casey:                         We've been friends ever since. Jane Winslow:                   Yes absolutely. Paul Casey:                         Very cool. Well let's help our Tri-City influencers get to know you. So take us through your past positions that led up to where you are right now. Jane Winslow:                   All right. Well I think my very first job was I had a coloring job at home. I would color pictures for my dad and we would have meetings when he got home from work. My sister was my secretary. I used to file them under the cushions in the couch, but that was my first job. And then he would check in with me at the end of my day. How was your day? And I would, you know, I would ask my dad, how was your day Raymond, because I think I was three possibly at the time. So I have always worked with a lot of different entrepreneurs. Jane Winslow:                   So when I got started working, you know, my dad owned a small business. It was a small family owned insurance company. They've been in business over 110 years now. It's still in the family. I think we're on generation five. And so I'd hear my dad talk about working with small businesses and some of the challenges and things. And as I grew one of my first jobs kind of in my field because I've done a lot of things. I worked for a glass and ceramic decorator, I worked for a truck driving school in the textbook printing division. And when I moved to the Tri-Cities I worked for Eagle Printing. So I kind of came up through print and my degrees in graphic design, and at the time, before Al Gore invented the internet, print was the thing. Paul Casey:                         What did you learn from influencers along the way at some of those positions? Were you associated with some people who became like mentors to you or gave you good advice? Jane Winslow:                   I was really fortunate in my opinion, really fortunate to work with pretty much all small businesses. And when you work in a small business you have the opportunity to work directly with the owner and you get a real sense for what's happening in the business. They share things with you, and they make sure a lot of times, at least the ones that I worked with, they make sure that you understand why what they've asked you to do is important. You know, it may be go clean the conference room table and reset the chairs before this meeting. Why? Why can't somebody else do that? Well, because it makes a difference to make a great first impression. Jane Winslow:                   You know, why should I send this proof to them again? Because they said they needed this by a certain date and that they don't sign off on the artwork, we can't get it ready in time. That's why. So really great communication and all through the way. When I moved to the tri cities and I worked for Dude Bodie and Dave Henry who owned Eagle Printing, worked a lot with Dude Bodie and he said to me, "I want you to treat this division, this department," which was graphic design and fairly new for them, "I want you to run it like it's your own business. You make the decisions, you work with the customers, you send the invoices and you get to collect the money." That part I didn't like so much, but I learned how to do it and he said, "I trust you and when you run into a problem you come to me." Paul Casey:                         I love how you shared a leadership principle there of giving people the why, because if you just bark out orders, people are wondering in their head why anyways, so give them that upfront. That answer, which again creates more of the purpose. It's also like delegating vision where if you just delegate a task, well they might just bang that out, but they're going to be going, "Why am I doing this?" Jane Winslow:                   Exactly. Exactly. And you know, without telling me as you know, this minimum wage employee with absolutely no skill, not at Eagle, but in Indianapolis when I started working, you know, it gave me a bit of a sense of purpose. I felt that the job I was doing was important, that if I wasn't there, there was a noticeable difference. Paul Casey:                         Yeah. Connect tasks to the greater purpose. And that's why people stay engaged at work. And when they're disengaged at work, that's usually a disconnect there. Jane Winslow:                   It's pretty much always the boss' fault. Paul Casey:                         That's right. People keep leaving their bosses, not their companies. Jane Winslow:                   Yes. Paul Casey:                         Well, when you created this business, what was your original vision and then how has that sort of morphed along the journey? Jane Winslow:                   You know, it's been interesting. So I quit my job at Eagle Printing and I quit because I wanted to do more design work, the kind of design and the kind of printing that Eagle wasn't doing in house, but that the customers were asking for. So I saw a need that they couldn't actually fulfill. So I left and I thought, well, this will be great. Maybe I'll start a family, you know, I'll do all these things. Well, inside 10 months, I had a few clients that followed me, and inside 10 months we were so busy, I had hired five people. We were working in an eight by eight, I'm bad with measurements, could have been 10 by 10, bedroom in my house. Jane Winslow:                   When one person had to get up and leave the room, everybody had to get up and leave the room in single file. It was really that hilarious. But I thought start a family. So we finally had to move out. Eagle Printing actually came to me and offered me my old space to run my business because the person they hired to replace me was leaving and they knew I was looking for space. So they actually let me come back and run my business in my old office, which was kind of cool. Little did I know I was pregnant. Had no idea. Jane Winslow:                   So it's really morphed into something completely different. You know, we've been very fortunate that our clients have come to us over 22 years through other client referrals and things that they've seen people, people have seen us doing in the community. So we haven't had to do a lot to drive business. And a lot of times I really feel like I'm holding onto the tail of a wild animal that is dragging me. And sometimes it's really nice when it slows down enough that I can say, "Okay dog, we're going this way." You know, and kind of make a few more strategy plans where you say more, I want more of this kind of customer and less of this kind of customer and so you start navigating. But it has been quite the whirlwind, which is funny because it's been 22 years of whirlwind. Paul Casey:                         Yeah, that's a great way to describe the entrepreneur journey. Holding onto the tail of a wild animal. We're along for this ride. But that's what makes it fun too, right? Every day is different. Jane Winslow:                   Every day is different. Every day is a new challenge. Every day is a new adventure and I'm the kind of person that I love challenges. I'm not somebody that is afraid of change or challenges. I love challenges. Let's solve a problem. I love puzzles. Paul Casey:                         What are you most passionate about in your business right now and why? Jane Winslow:                   My team. I have the absolute best people surrounding me. They're multi talented, hardworking, they care about each other, they care about me, they care about the business, they care about the client, they care to be engaged with the client. Every one of my people treats the business as though it is their own. In fact, frequently I have been introduced by a client to someone else who introduces my staff member as the owner because they think that they're working with the owner when it's- Paul Casey:                         That's cool. Jane Winslow:                   One of my staff members and it just, and it's awesome. And I don't usually correct them, plus it's important and somebody had to sign a check. But you know, I think it's fantastic. I get such incredible reviews from my people. Different people lead different projects and I get so much great feedback from them. They love each other, they love the company, they love me, they love the clients. And that creates an incredible atmosphere to work in. Paul Casey:                         It does. And how did you get such great people? I mean what did you look for in the hiring process? And we're not going to say their names because then they're going to get poached away. No, no, just kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. Jane Winslow:                   Stay off my website. Paul Casey:                         But what do you look for to create a culture that you have this wonderful team right now? Jane Winslow:                   Well, I can tell you I've done it wrong a lot of times. Frequently I have hired for resume experience or the look in their portfolio and those things. But what I have found is that if I hire for fit and I know they have the skills, everything else falls into play. You know, I need people that feel the way that I do about them, that feel the way that we all feel about each other and that feel good about coming to work and putting their skills to the best possible use for the client. Because we've got a culture and I don't know, a work environment of everybody is willing to pitch in at any time. Jane Winslow:                   If somebody finds themselves with kind of a lack of things to do in the afternoon because so many things are out with clients waiting bids, they visit every single person. "Do you have anything that I can help you with?" Every single day. It's awesome. It's really an awesome experience and I haven't always had that. You know, I've had people that are secretive, that are undermining, that allow their personal life to come in and dominate the workplace and it's just... It pulls everybody down. Paul Casey:                         So those people were not in the right seat on the bus as Jim Collins would say. Jane Winslow:                   True. Paul Casey:                         And so how did that come to your attention where you realize this is not a good fit? This does not fit the culture I'm trying to create here? Jane Winslow:                   Well, when I start seeing my staff struggle to tell me something because you know, I do have an office, it is an environment, I am the boss. And so sometimes they struggle with, do I really want to tell her she made a bad decision here, you know? And I have always encouraged them to be open and honest with me and I've told them sometimes I'm going to do what I want to do anyway. But just like I tell my clients when I advise them and they say, "I'm going to do the thing you told me not to do anyway." When it blows up, they come back to me and say, "You were right." Well, same thing in the office. So if I make a bad call, they find sudden... Well subtle ways to let me know that this isn't working. And if they're very concerned, they come out and tell me and we can either try to work with that person or that person needs to go. I've gotten a lot better about pulling the trigger on the person just needs go. Paul Casey:                         Mm-hmm (affirmative). Very difficult day to let somebody go. Jane Winslow:                   It is. It is. But I can tell you that most of the time when I have let someone go, they have come back and thanked me for it, which is a weird position to be in, but it's nice. Because I don't, not an angry fire person. I'm not. It's just not the right fit. It's not working for what we need at this time. And you know, we try to mitigate some of those things beforehand, but if it just isn't going to work, it isn't going to work. And ultimately people spend most of their life at work. You need to be doing the things that make you happy. You need to be doing the things that you're good at and you need to feel valuable and you need to feel part of a team. Jane Winslow:                   And if you don't feel that way, if you're not happy going to work, you don't really want to be there anyway. It's not about the paycheck. It's really about cultivating a life that you want to live. So you're dragging me down and we're dragging you down. This isn't working. You know, I know you need a job, we all need a job. I would be happy to give you a great recommendation and a great reference and I'll help you find something if I can. Paul Casey:                         Yeah, that probably means you did it well. If they come back and thank you after getting let go. Jane Winslow:                   Hopefully. We're all learning, we're always learning. Paul Casey:                         Well I'll take that rabbit trail. So then there's people on your team that do fit the culture. But they might be in the wrong seat on the bus. In other words, you've probably had to move people into different roles, responsibilities. Talk to me about maybe situations where that happens. Jane Winslow:                   So one of the tools that my coach gave me- Paul Casey:                         Who's that? Jane Winslow:                   Who may or may not be Paul Casey. So one of the tools that you recommended a long time ago was the StrengthsFinder test and a long time ago was probably a year ago. So you recommended that we do that. And so my whole team did it and we found it really, really cool. We're all nerds at heart, we love data, we love compare, contrast, those kinds of things. I mean we're designers so a little bit of friction is good, right? So we came up with our top five strengths, excuse me, we put them all out on a board. We looked at where people matched and where people were standing alone in a strength. Alysha, who's my office manager, printed out top five strengths for every single person with a picture and our name on it. And it sits on everybody's desk every single day and we've all learned what all those strengths mean and so it's been really, really nice to figure out and apply to our work what skills are needed for this type of project. Jane Winslow:                   Why when I say Lynette thinks differently than I do, how awesome that is because I don't want people that think exactly like me on a creative team. I want more ideas because more ideas is better options for the client and better results, right? So we've got more things to choose from. So it has really helped. And then conversely, if I've tried to ask an employee who seem to have more time or bandwidth to do something that I needed to delegate and then comes back to me and says, "I'm really not strong in this area, I want to help tell me which pieces I should do and then when to hand it off, because I think that Vanessa would be better than this, or Michael or Nathan." And it's been great. It's been really great. It's been a great communication tool and a great learning tool. Paul Casey:                         Let's stay on that staff topic. How do you keep your staff inspired and affirmed? Jane Winslow:                   So one thing is, two of the people on my team decided to make themselves into the sunshine committee, which is awesome because everybody needs a little joy or a lot. And so they plan monthly events for staff. Now, depending on where we are and how busy we are or what budget is, you know, sometimes they're office potlucks and they'll have a theme or sometimes we go out, we'll go to a movie, we're all nerds. So we all went and saw the Spider-Man movie together. We also saw the Men in Black movie together, you know, we also seen Avengers: Endgame. We had to see that in stages. But you know, we go out and we do things, we go to the Americans game and we go out to dinner and we do things together. Jane Winslow:                   We all really like each other, which we have been told, I've been told numerous times by clients and vendors both, it's really weird how much you all actually get along. I'm so used to going into offices where everybody's super happy and then they're dissing each other, you know, on the back. And that doesn't happen with these people. That doesn't happen with my team and that's reiterated with clients. The other thing is transparency. I am overly open and honest with my team about exactly what's going on in the business. Good, bad, ugly, all of it. They know. I personally believe because I have been on the receiving end of this as a staff person, when the boss is really upset, the boss is in a bad mood, the boss is constantly locking themselves in their office or storming in and out and it doesn't have time for anybody. You're short with people. I don't ever want to be that person. Jane Winslow:                   I've worked for horrible managers, none of whom I've talked about today, so don't go looking. I've worked for those people and I don't like it. I don't like the culture. I don't like going into work scared every day. I don't want to be afraid for my job. I want people to know. And what's great about this is that when my team knows, my team all pulls together to help every way they can. And when it's a great thing, they are all on board with celebrating. Everybody loves to party. But they get it and they get that work comes first and they get that this is how we have fun and we have lots of opportunities and we want to do something that everybody will enjoy. But we also want to push people to try new things. So, it's good. Paul Casey:                         A spirit of celebration. Jane Winslow:                   Yes. Paul Casey:                         Well no one wants to get stale in their leadership. So how do you stay relevant? How do you stay on the cutting edge yourself and how do you foster innovation in a creative company? Jane Winslow:                   So as I said, we're all nerds, so we all are looking and trying to develop new skills, looking into other uses for software. We all love to look at different marketing trends and we all kind of do that in our own way. Look at different creative tools, look at different drawing tools. You know, what are the trends and not that I care really what the trends are because I would rather be different. You know, but looking at what's going on and even different industries because we do a lot of work in healthcare, we do a lot of work in construction, we do a lot of work in arts and in education. So looking at what things are going on there, so in terms of research and just being aware. I'm in your mastermind group, the small business mastermind, which I absolutely love. I'm in a BNI chapter, I'm in the dream team right now, but I know and network with several of the other chapters as well. Jane Winslow:                   I'm in several different Facebook groups that are groups for entrepreneurial women or local business owners or graphic designers or restaurant groups because we've got a product that's specifically for restaurants and entertainment venues. I do some of the more laid back networking events like chamber and Link and just some different things. And then I've got a network with my clients. I talk to my clients. I love to learn what's going on in their industries and how it can apply to my industry or how I can put that client with another client and come up with something new. And then I've got a really great group of fellow business owners that I call brain trust and it's good to just really look, and I use the mastermind group that way as well, as these people that are leaders in their fields who are seeing different things that I'm seeing. We look at trends, we look at, you know, buying habits. We look at all kinds of different things, but they're just great resources. Paul Casey:                         People, people, people. I mean you just really- Jane Winslow:                   Yeah there's always people. Paul Casey:                         I mean you just mentioned dozens of people in your life that you surround yourself with to grow from. Jane Winslow:                   Yes. Yes. I am an active learner. I am a hands on, active learner. I love to read, but I don't make time for it anymore because I would rather be able to ask questions back because that's how I process information. I process it best that way. My brain is already engaged and I want to know why. And so instead of writing a thousand questions in the margins of a book as I go through it or talking to the air or my dog on a podcast, I am an active, engaged networker. Paul Casey:                         Extrovert, you. Jane Winslow:                   Yes, maybe a little. Paul Casey:                         Well, before we head to our next question on what makes a great day at work and at home for Jane, let's shout out to our sponsors. Paul Casey:                         Jason Hogue, American Family Insurance. Jason, what is the biggest pushback you get about life insurance? Jason Hogue:                     Hey Paul. Yeah. One of the biggest push backs I get from life insurance is from folks that are single. They usually ask me, "Why do I even need this? I don't have kids. I don't have, you know, any dependents or a spouse. Why do I need this?" Ultimately whenever you pass on, there's going to be somebody there to pick up the pieces. There's going to be somebody to deal with your affairs and I would say it's your responsibility to make sure that there is funds, that there's money there so that person can take the time needed to go through it properly and not make it their responsibility. Paul Casey:                         Awesome, Jason. So tell us how can our listeners get in touch with you? Jason Hogue:                     You can swing by our office on Road 68 and Pasco, or give us a call. (509) 547-0540. Paul Casey:                         So Jane, what makes it a good day? Just overall for you personally and on a good day at work, you look back at the end of the day and you go, "It was really a good day today." What happened in that day? Jane Winslow:                   I love new client meetings, absolutely love new client meetings. I love to learn about a business. I don't care if I have five clients or 10 clients that do the same thing. I love to learn about a business. I love to learn their story. I love to learn their why, because those are the things that truly make marketing a unique experience for them. You know, we work with a lot of real estate agents and I asked them what makes you different? And they all tell me exactly the same thing. Exactly. Well, excellent service and I'm very attentive to detail. And they are. They are. So I don't want to belittle that, but that's not what makes them different. Jane Winslow:                   What makes different is why they chose real estate. What is their passion? Give me some stories of your favorite customers because now we get back to the why. You know, in the mortgage industry and the banking industry and the insurance industry, in education, it doesn't matter what it is. We all believe the brochure copy that we're doing, all the script, not the copy I wrote, by the way, we all believe we're doing this great service. But at the end of the day, your passion for why you do what you do is what makes you unique. It is what makes you special. And it is the thing that people respond to. Paul Casey:                         It's not that I've been in business since 1985? Jane Winslow:                   It is actually not. In fact, if you have a meeting with me, and you give me that information as something you'd like in your brochure. What are the words I will say to you, Paul? Paul Casey:                         Nobody cares. Jane Winslow:                   Nobody cares but you. Paul Casey:                         So that's a great reminder. It's the why. Jane Winslow:                   It's the why. Paul Casey:                         It's the why. So it makes it a good day for you when you get to meet with those clients and brainstorm and attack their challenge and- Jane Winslow:                   Yes. Yes. And it's energizing. I absolutely love it. That's my favorite part of it. Paul Casey:                         Well, take us behind the scenes of your life a little bit. What's your best habit and what's your worst habits? Jane Winslow:                   All right. Personally or professionally? Paul Casey:                         Yes. Jane Winslow:                   Oh no. Okay. So personal best habits, I drink a ton of water, I eat clean, I take my vitamins and I have a wicked awesome skin care regimen. So those are good things. You know the things every woman is supposed to do. But my worst habits, I'm a pack rat, not hoarder level, but I do have all of my projects from college. I graduated a thousand years ago and I still have all of them there. Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous. I'm not hoarder level, but it could get that way. Paul Casey:                         You've given stuff to Goodwill, I know this. Jane Winslow:                   I have, I have, I've gotten rid of a lot of clothes. So professionally I am very honest. I'm very honest with clients and I do, I can usually tell when they kind of are not ready for the truth but they're asking me my honest opinion and I tell them, "You are paying me for my advice and my recommendations. This is what I see, this is what I recommend." And if they come back at me and say, "Yeah, no, I really want to do it this way." That is okay. You're the client, it's your budget. We're going to do the best we can in that direction. Jane Winslow:                   And then if it doesn't work and they come back and, "You were right, we should probably do the other thing instead." And sometimes I'm wrong. It has happened a couple of times. Not totally wrong, but kind of a, well this was pretty amazing that this works. Let's try that again and let's grow this way now because we saw some increase in revenue, let's add this other strategy and see what happens. And 11 times out of 10, the second strategy takes off way better than the first one. But it's important that the business owner is engaged. They know more about their business than I ever will. And that's important. I only want to work with people that are engaged in their businesses and care about the direction it goes and their why. It is their why. And that's important. And if their big why is that we've been in business since 1920, I will work with it. I can absolutely work with it. Paul Casey:                         But you found the direct approach is the best approach. You're not going to schmooze them, you're not going to try to sell them other stuff. You're going to shoot straight with them. Jane Winslow:                   Exactly. Paul Casey:                         This is what I think is going to make you successful. Jane Winslow:                   Exactly. And I'm really good at leaving money on the table quite frankly. I would rather somebody come to me with a realistic budget and then we say, in fact, I had a client meeting today and she gave me her budget and I said, "I know you can do a lot of the pieces, the execution work that I'm going to recommend and what I would like to do is factor that into my proposal to say, you'll handle this once I give you the tools to do it and use your budget for these other things that I know you can't do. But I don't want to just take all this for you and have you at the end of the day say I could have done 75% of that myself." So trying to help people use their budget and hire the experts for the pieces that they can't do or don't want to do or just have me make it easier for you to deploy it. That's what I want. Paul Casey:                         Those are three good outsourcing rules of thumb. You said can't do, don't want to do and was the third one? Jane Winslow:                   Well, it takes too long. I mean, I like to make it easier for them. It's like, let's just tighten this up and make it easier for you so that it is super easy for you to create that brochure within these tools that I've given you. Paul Casey:                         How about a favorite quote, Jane? Jane Winslow:                   Favorite quote? Well, this is on my screen at my office is, "Empowered women empower women." And I am, not that I have anything against you guys out there, I totally don't. I have a lot of male clients too so, and colleagues, but women business owners are a very strong vertical who don't believe enough in themselves. And as a female entrepreneur doing far more than I ever thought that I would as far as growth in my business. And, and I mean sideways and vertically because I mean, you know, I've got a lot of different pieces going on. But we all struggle, men and women actually, with this self doubt and we need each other to hold each other up and support each other and learn from each other and network with each other. And I think women in particular don't want to be seen as vulnerable or failing or anything else. Jane Winslow:                   Men don't either, but it's a little bit different because women an awful lot of the times, you know, we have to be successful mom, we have to be successful wife, we have to be successful boss, business owner, networker, colleague, vendor, salesperson, all the things. And I think that our ownership of all the things as a woman is different than the ownership of all the things for men. I think that men see them as different size responsibilities and women see them all as huge and full-time. Paul Casey:                         And that can be overwhelming. Jane Winslow:                   Yeah, absolutely. So I mean I know I struggle with it and I've got a great team of people around me and that is the secret. Paul Casey:                         And that's why we have to keep pumping each other up because who knows that that positive comment, "You can do this," is going to take that person and push past that obstacle. Jane Winslow:                   Exactly. Exactly. Paul Casey:                         How about favorite book that everybody should read? Jane Winslow:                   So my favorite book or the one that has I think impacted my style first and foremost is Eat That Frog, which is what, 12 pages? Paul Casey:                         Oh yeah. Jane Winslow:                   I think it's maybe, you know. It's a super fast read, but of course the gist is, do the hard, awful thing first. You know, if you get up every day and eat the frog and just do the worst possible thing, the thing you're dreading first and get it out of the way, the rest of the day is so much easier. And it's hard because sometimes that eating the frog thing, it's the really long thing that you can't make time for and you have made it up into this giant thing in your head. And if you just get through it, everything else is so much easier. Paul Casey:                         Yup. I'd rather cross off all those little things that give us the endorphin rush. But if we get the one big thing done, oh. Then we get so much more done after that. Jane Winslow:                   That's true. Paul Casey:                         It's just like a snowball effect in a good way. How about an influencer in town that Tri-Citians should meet? Jane Winslow:                   So I don't spend a lot of time looking at other business people and what they're doing and how they're doing it and try to figure it out and modeling myself after that. I'm just not that person. I've never been that person. And I try to not get externally competitive. I'm very competitive with myself. So I asked some friends, you know, it's like, okay, I know Paul's going to ask me this question, what should I say? And four out of five of them said, "You, it's you." Okay, so we're just going to answer this way. Well, thanks. But why? I'm like, okay, really? It's like, yeah, why me? Jane Winslow:                   They said, "Well, you're a power networker and you see solutions that other people can't see. And your ability to collaborate and put people together to make something completely different happen is unlike anybody else in the Tri-Cities. What you do with your clients and your friends and your power groups is completely different. And it sends businesses in a completely different direction and elevates them in a way that traditional marketing can't do and doesn't do or hasn't done." Paul Casey:                         Yeah, I would totally describe you as a connector. Totally. Jane Winslow:                   Thank you. Paul Casey:                         Totally. This person, I know this person over here. And of course that's how BNI is built. Givers gain. Jane Winslow:                   It is. Well, and that's what attracted me to BNI. Dana Mundy and I started BNI in the Tri-Cities, so a thousand years ago. I'm bad with dates, so I don't know however long it's been in the Tri-Cities, Dana and I started it. And really Dana started it. She researched networking groups and she came to me and called me and said, "Hey, would you join this?" I'm like, yeah, sure. I'll come and check it out. I didn't realize I was the second call and that we were doing this together, so I- Paul Casey:                         And nine chapters later or whatever it's at now- Jane Winslow:                   I don't know how many there are now. But it was a natural fit for me. It was just a natural fit because that's how I work anyway. So yeah, I would be a power connector in BNI. Paul Casey:                         If you left a letter on your desk for the leader who comes after you at WinSome, Inc., what would it say? Jane Winslow:                   Run! No. Seriously, if I were to leave my desk tomorrow, with the current team in place, I would tell the new me to love these people, trust them, encourage them and be honest with them that they will push this company to new heights and you just get to enjoy the view and ride the wave. Paul Casey:                         Great letter. All right. Finally, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence? Jane Winslow:                   Well, I think it's kind of been the theme of this podcast and that would be network. Get out of your own head. I frequently when in our masterminds, we've got a couple of people in the masterminds that are really good at telling me that I am the one in my own way. And it's really hard as a business owner because we're responsible for everything. We're product, we're development, we're staff, we're office, we're bills, we're management, we're vision, we're mission, we're everything. We're absolutely everything. We are the lifeline. Jane Winslow:                   So get out of your own head to get out of your way. Surround yourself with people that you trust, who look at things differently than you do and have a different skillset. There's no business that can succeed by itself in a vacuum. You can't be successful personally and professionally doing everything yourself, you know? So create that brain trust. When I worked for Eagle Printing, my boss said to me, you know, "You need to surround yourself with people who can do things that you can't do." You know, ask them questions and let them ask you questions because you are an expert in your field. Ask them questions. Work together. Don't be afraid of the competition. Learn how to work with the competition. Jane Winslow:                   We all have our own whys. I have a lot of competition in the Tri-Cities, but I do things differently than they do even though we technically, just like a real estate agent, offer exactly the same services. You know, why work with me? You've got to understand who your brain trust people are and they'll be honest with you, especially if you're sharing with them and they're sharing with you. Be honest with me. Tell me when I'm in my own way and I've got some great people that are really good at that. Paul Casey:                         Fantastic. Well, how can our listeners best connect with you? Jane Winslow:                   So you can find, let's see. I don't even know the answer to that question. So we've got a website winsomedesign.com W-I-N-S-O-M-E design.com. We've got a Facebook page, WinSome, Inc., and my phone numbers are on there. My office is at 1201 Jadwin in Richland. There. Paul Casey:                         Excellent. Well thanks again for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great place and keep leading well. Jane Winslow:                   Thank you. Paul Casey:                         Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend, actually it's more of a personal resource to recommend and some of the clients I have are thinking about, well I just need a hobby. You know, I just need something to lighten up my life. And so I found a website that's called notsoboringlife.com. notsoboringlife.com/list-of-hobbies. List of hobbies. And it's like 308 hobbies. If you're just thinking, I have got to try something new, I've got to stop working, not be a workaholic anymore. I need a new hobby. Check out notsoboringlife.com, list of hobbies. And don't forget to consider patronizing our sponsors of Tri-City influencer, Gravis Law and Jason Hogue, American Family Insurance. Finally, one more leadership ticket for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "It is one of the most beautiful compensations of this life that no man can sincerely try to help another without helping himself." Keep growing forward. Speaker 3:                           If you enjoyed this podcast or it piqued your interest in learning more about leadership and self leadership, you can continue to glean from Paul and his Growing Forward Services. Check out Paul's blog and the products, tips and tools on his website at www.paulcasey.org and opt in to his Target Practice inspirational e-newsletter. You'll get his 33 top tips for becoming a time management rockstar when you subscribe and consider buying one of his three books. The most recent one being Leading the Team You've Always Wanted. Paul Casey:                        This podcast has been produced by Bonsai Audio at Fuse Coworking Space.  

This is episode 149 of Which is the Best podcast, one of the few podcasts released today that will both semi sensitively deal with a public suicide and also feature one of the most inappropriate things to have featured in the entire history of the show. Trigger warning: Don't listen. What is this thing then? Well I'll tell you. Lee Kyle (Never eaten fruit) and Sammy Dobson (Never ever have I ever felt so low, how you gonna get me out of this black hole?) decide which is the best between things of the same or similar names. This time: Barbed wire: Cuts you up if you try and steal a dog. and Bob Dwyer: Politician R Budd Dwyer who committed suicide on the news (Google it by all means but don't watch the video.) Oh, also, Lee has a new blog where he reviews every song that peaked at number 2 in the UK charts. Here's the new one: https://www.imleekyle.com/post/pretty-little-black-eyed-susie-guy-mitchell

What Makes a Successful House Wholesaler (HA 081) Steven Jack B.:                   Jill and Jack here. Jill DeWit:                            Hello. Steven Jack B.:                   Welcome to the House Academy Show, entertaining real estate investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill DeWit:                            And I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Steven Jack B.:                   Today Jill and I talk about what makes a successful house wholesaler. Jill DeWit:                            I would like just to point out something. The way you just started the show just had a nice ring to it. Steven Jack B.:                   Oh, because you're first now? Jill DeWit:                            Yeah. Steven Jack B.:                   You know what we decided? Jill DeWit:                            I was first there, but I wasn't first on the names. Maybe we should- Steven Jack B.:                   You know what we decided? Jill DeWit:                            Are we easing into it? Steven Jack B.:                   And it's been this way all along, but it was brought to our attention, my attention recently that, "Hey Jack, it's not about you, man. Hey Jill, it's all about you." Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Jack B.:                   "You're just a sidekick. You're just the guy who's standing there trying to make everybody look a little bit more intelligent, just trying to." Jill DeWit:                            The one who's doing the math, the man behind the curtain. Steven Jack B.:                   The other thing too is that Jack and Jill sounds like we're selling nursery rhymes. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly, so we thought we'd go with Jill and Jack. Steven Jack B.:                   So yeah, it probably confuses the hell out of everybody. Jill DeWit:                            It makes you think. I hope it does, we'll see. We'll find out. Steven Jack B.:                   Before we get into it let's take a question posted by one of our members on the houseacademy.com online community. It's free. Jill DeWit:                            Aaron asks, "What exactly is SPS," which is a Smart Pricing Service, "from offers to owners? Have any of you used it?" And I see someone's already weighed in and answered here. Kelly said, "Is that an abbreviation for Smart Pricing Service?" Yes. "If so, yes, I've used it for a big list and it's definitely worth it." So without getting too into it and too brainy, can I- Steven Jack B.:                   I got some instructions today about how the show should go, how we should record the show. Here's the instructions. Jill DeWit:                            Oh no. Steven Jack B.:                   "Hey Steve"- Jill DeWit:                            Jack. Steven Jack B.:                   "Can you tone it down and just stop making this so brainy and so really nothing interesting?" Jill DeWit:                            Well, I'm right on the interesting part. We like the brainy part. That part's good. Steven Jack B.:                   So I'm going to sit quietly and listen today. Jill DeWit:                            No, that's not the truth. Okay, so here is the deal. One of the things that we do when we're doing our pricing, we all come up with our own ... We have our own way of valuating these assets, looking at what's available, but let's take a step back. We all know ... If you don't, you should and you do now ... that Zillow, Trulia, Redfin, Realtor, DataTree, all these companies spend a lot of money to put together their own unique algorithms for pricing properties. That's why when you go on something like realtor.com it gives you it's value. It's not a made up number. It's looking at comps, what's available, what's sold, probably square footage. I'm hoping the size of the lot's in there, three bed, two bath, whatever it is. I'm sure they all do a version ... I don't know all the details and I don't need to get into all the details here now, but they do some version of informative, elevated, smart pricing. So what we do is- Steven Jack B.:                   It's an algorithm. Jill DeWit:                            Yeah, it's an algorithm. Do you want to continue it? Steven Jack B.:                   Yeah. So if you'll notice if you look up your home address on Zillow, Trulia, Redfin, DataTree, it's all different, but they're all not crazy, crazy different. One's not $500,000 and one's $1.2- Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   In very rare cases, that's the situation. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Jack B.:                   So they all have the different take on what's in that algorithm. The ones that are my favorite lean heavily on recent sales or recent listings, not so much on the asset itself. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   And then they look at the lot size and square footage. So is one better than the other? I don't know. But we don't judge. We just line them all up next to each other and take the average, and so it's a lot of work to look up all those properties. And we're working on automating that so that you just hit a button and it goes out and brings all that data back into the spreadsheet in the correct format. But until then a human has to do it, and we choose our virtual assistant team in the Philippines. Jill DeWit:                            Right, so we saw that on offers to owners. You can go in and you could put it ... I don't care if it's 10 units or 10,000 units. We hit them with 20,000 and then they'll work on it. Depending how many it is, it might take hours, it might take a day- Steven Jack B.:                   It's never taken longer than 48 hours and we do some 20,000 unit plus mailers- Jill DeWit:                            Exactly- Steven Jack B.:                   Often. Jill DeWit:                            And they sit and look up all those numbers and put them in for you and send it right back. And then it's great because then from there Jack still does his magic, if you will. And he uses that as a tool to price our offers. Steven Jack B.:                   Exactly. And it's very, very accurate. It's way more accurate and more fun than the values that we come up with to buy land. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   That's more of an art. Jill DeWit:                            It's true. Steven Jack B.:                   This is more of a science. Jill DeWit:                            It's very true. Steven Jack B.:                   Today's topic, what makes a successful house wholesaler? This is the meat of the show. Jill DeWit:                            You go first. What do you think? Steven Jack B.:                   After I get my keyboard thing up. Jill DeWit:                            Okay. Is everything working okay there? Steven Jack B.:                   Before we say ... We talked about what a successful wholesaler is, let's just define it. What is a house wholesaler? Oh go ahead, yeah, sure. I want to see if our answer's the same here. Jill DeWit:                            If you didn't see that, for those of you that are not watching I raised my hand. And no, I wasn't always that kid in high school that always had an answer for everything. Usually in high school by the way, I was in the back going, "Please don't pick me. Don't make eye contact." Steven Jack B.:                   Me too. Jill DeWit:                            Even if I know the answer, just let somebody else go. It's too much work. I'm over here doing my thing. I'm only here because I have to be here. So anyway- Steven Jack B.:                   This morning Jill and I were having breakfast together and for whatever reason we were talking about when we were little kids and how our parents reacted to stuff, and how as parents we are. Jill and I just walk around and say, "Gosh, we're the coolest parents there ever was." All parents probably say that. Anyway I said, "What was it like when you were a kid?" And she said, "I broke a lot of glass." Jill DeWit:                            I said, "My dad was, "Really?" Steven Jack B.:                   Did you really- Jill DeWit:                            It's so funny- Steven Jack B.:                   Break a lot of glass? Jill DeWit:                            Hold on a moment. Yeah, my dad was pretty chill. My dad's like, "Just come on, can you get your act together here?" My mom was not that way, no. And so for some reason I seemed to drop glasses a lot and my mom would always have a fit. Whether it was emptying the dishwasher or just getting them from the table to the kitchen, I have no idea why. Actually, I do think I know why. You know what, this is Jill therapy. Steven Jack B.:                   I want to hear this, too. Jill DeWit:                            You know why? I have been and forever will be someone who wants to make less trips than more trips to and from the car- Steven Jack B.:                   Me too- Jill DeWit:                            To and from the kitchen, to and from anywhere. So what do I do? Oh, I load up man. Steven Jack B.:                   Overload. Jill DeWit:                            And so I'm sure that's why. I was probably balancing 16 things because I thought I could do it in one trip and I was willing to risk it, to try. So what happens is I'm always dropping something, that's why. Steven Jack B.:                   When the kids were little I was trying to be a better parent, so I was read these books about parenting. And one of the things that stuck with me forever was this person who wrote this book, I don't remember even what book it was, they said, "There's a really big difference between telling your child that they made a mistake and telling them that they're stupid." It can be psychologically damaging forever. Jill DeWit:                            Oh my gosh. What if somebody says, "You made a mistake, stupid?" Steven Jack B.:                   You drop a glass, it's not that Jill's a ... doesn't make her a bad person. Jill DeWit:                            No. Steven Jack B.:                   She just made a mistake. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. Steven Jack B.:                   And my parents did not know the difference between that. Jill DeWit:                            Oh ... oops, sorry. No, I got in trouble for the incident, not for being an idiot. It's true. Nevermind, I was an idiot. Steven Jack B.:                   My parents whole take on the thing was, "This is just another incident that confirms what we knew all along." Jill DeWit:                            "You're not that bright." Steven Jack B.:                   "A long, long list of examples that you continue to add to. This is the most recent one." Jill DeWit:                            Nice. "Check, we knew that was going to happen." Oh gosh. Okay, so back to what is a successful wholesaler? Steven Jack B.:                   What is a wholesaler? A wholesaler is not what you see on HGTV. That is a rehabber. We don't want any part of that. Our group is packed full of people who have long thrown their tools away. We want to buy an asset for 70% of what it's worth-ish, mark it up 10 to $50,000, let's say ballpark, and sell it to the person who's going to clean it up or rehab it. We are wholesalers. Jill DeWit:                            It's the easiest thing. I love it. And imagine this, because you're only dealing with other investors. You're not dealing with the realtor who has the couple in the car, who wants to drive by and look at it and then bring the kids and maybe even have a picnic there to see if the view's that good. You never know. Steven Jack B.:                   Occasionally we hit an asset, we buy an asset that looks great, and we decide incorrectly to retail it- Jill DeWit:                            Or to do a lipstick flip kind of thing. Steven Jack B.:                   Yeah, we maybe change the carpet out or something and that's it. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   And every single time we do that, we regret it. Jill DeWit:                            We kick ourselves. Steven Jack B.:                   It hasn't happened much this year. We did one last year, but we made a hundred grand on it but- Jill DeWit:                            We have to catch ourselves. Steven Jack B.:                   It took four or five months to sell it, I think. Jill DeWit:                            So much more work. Steven Jack B.:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            A lot of talking- Steven Jack B.:                   A lot of phone calls, a lot of real estate agent contact. So if you listen to this show at all you know how we feel about that. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. You know, the thing is too when you're dealing with people who are just like you in the like mind, you bought it for cash, they're coming in with cash. They love that you had the inspection, you hand it to them. All I need to do is walk it once and they're done. I mean that's really it. And that's- Steven Jack B.:                   And if you do it right you're selling to the same person over and over again too, for the same five, eight, 10 people per market. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. So I think we're describing not only what a wholesaler is, but what a successful wholesaler is. Steven Jack B.:                   That's a wholesaler. "So that's great, Steve. Thanks for the definition." Jill DeWit:                            "I could've done this myself online." Steven Jack B.:                   If you're actually still listening, here's the topic. The successful wholesaler is data centric. The asset itself is merely the results of the manipulation of assessor data and how you've utilized it and looked at it and looked at the market. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   We are data people that happen to buy and sell real estate. We could be data people that happen to buy and sell stock. Jill DeWit:                            It's true. Steven Jack B.:                   We know people that are like that, very successful people. Jill DeWit:                            We could be doing this with cars- Steven Jack B.:                   Extremely successful, yeah. Jill DeWit:                            Boats- Steven Jack B.:                   But it's data first. So that's in my mind what makes a successful wholesaler. But I'm the acquisition guy and I designed all this, put this whole thing together from scratch. I came up with it somehow, I don't know why. Really because I didn't want to talk on the phone. Jill, once the mail gets out, if you listened to yesterday's show or whenever it aired, the most recent show before this, I'm done when the mail goes out. I'm done. What makes a successful wholesaler then is Jill. Every single person in our group who does very, very well is on the phone all day, all day. That's what this business is. And so I don't want ... I think there ... The ones who are great- Jill DeWit:                            You mean getting inbound calls? Steven Jack B.:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            Okay, yeah, yeah. I'm not outbound calls, it's inbound calls. Steven Jack B.:                   Inbound calls, responding to the mailer. Jill DeWit:                            I want to make that really clear. Do you know what, that's what's interesting. I'm going to just say real quick, we talked about this the last show too, we're just with a couple last weekend who thought they knew what we do and realized they have no idea what we do. Steven Jack B.:                   Which we don't talk about it anyway, we're out having fun. Jill DeWit:                            And it was so cute. Yeah, trust me, we don't bring this up. Steven Jack B.:                   They didn't make a mistake- Jill DeWit:                            No- Steven Jack B.:                   Is what I'm saying. Jill DeWit:                            Oh no, no, no. But what's funny is people ... and I can see where they get this, they think this is a cold calling environment. It's not, there's no outbound calls. Steven Jack B.:                   The whole concept is- Jill DeWit:                            It's all inbound. Steven Jack B.:                   We send out thousands and thousands of letters and then if you can envision these people opening their mail, all of them simultaneously sitting at their kitchen table ... there's only going to be a handful of them that have chosen themselves as a potential seller now. You just kind of rattled the cage. Then they've said, "Wow, this is perfect timing. I do want to sell this. I was just talking to my wife a couple of days ago. We need to sell this house." Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   "We need to move back to Boston. We need to," fill in the blank. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   So they choose you, we don't choose them. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. Steven Jack B.:                   And so 20 or 30 people are going to identify themselves as a seller, per mailer, and maybe three, four or five of those people, the deals actually make sense all the way through, from a financial perspective and a location and all that stuff. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Those numbers apply to a how many unit mailer that went out? Steven Jack B.:                   For houses? Jill DeWit:                            Yeah. Steven Jack B.:                   Oh, those numbers ... Let's just back it back into it this way. I feel very safe in saying that between 1200 and 4,000 people ... you want to answer this on the air? Jill DeWit:                            You want me to answer this? Steven Jack B.:                   Yeah. Jill DeWit:                            All right, I'm going to answer real inbound. This is a seller calling me back. Who knows what this is going to be. Ready, here we go. Jill DeWit:                            Hi, this is Jill. Speaker 3:                           Okay, I called this morning. I got one of your ... What are they called, purchase price things? Jill DeWit:                            Yes. Speaker 3:                           Okay, and I called you this morning because I want this name to be taken off your list. Jill DeWit:                            Okay. Speaker 3:                           Paul Romberg at 1435. Well, after the family did a little bit of research they want to make sure that you do that because it's really worth three times that much. Because when you send things out as you know, it's the seniors that you probably research sometimes. Jill DeWit:                            I don't- Speaker 3:                           And they go ahead and agree. Jill DeWit:                            No. Speaker 3:                           How are these done? Jill DeWit:                            You know what, I'll tell you. Here in Southern California it's tricky because it's based a lot of it ... There's a lot of stuff that goes into it. The way things are valued here in California and what they're really worth sometimes are very different, I totally understand that. And it's a good thing because we all know that you don't want to run down right now to the assessor and say, "Hey, I'm paying you too little in taxes. You all think my property is worth less." We like it that way, so that's part of the thing. So the bigger question is ... And I know sometimes they're off and I apologize, I did the best I can. But if that price doesn't work and you do want to sell, what price would work and I'll sure look at that. Speaker 3:                           Oh yeah, they've already done that. They're not selling. Jill DeWit:                            Oh, okay. So it doesn't matter what. I could have offered you three times what you really think it is and you don't want them- Speaker 3:                           He's 92 and he's not dead yet, so they're not selling. Jill DeWit:                            Okay, nobody wants to sell? Speaker 3:                           We don't want to get any more things like this because we don't get them very often. Jill DeWit:                            I understand- Speaker 3:                           And it's disturbing because if someone isn't here to open the mail then it creates other problems. Jill DeWit:                            Okay- Speaker 3:                           And confusion. Jill DeWit:                            No problem. Speaker 3:                           And so that's another thing. If you have a grandfather or a grandmother- Jill DeWit:                            I do- Speaker 3:                           Or something and they go, "Oh, this sounds good," and they sign papers- Jill DeWit:                            Oh no, we would ... Oh no, I wouldn't let it get to that point too, by the way. I would make sure and do my homework and make sure everybody's on board, and exactly. Don't even worry about that. Speaker 3:                           I just want it clear that it's taken off because I don't think they're going to sell it. Jill DeWit:                            That's a whole different thing- Speaker 3:                           [inaudible 00:16:33]. Jill DeWit:                            Well you know what though, save it and who knows? Someday if something changes and you do want to sell it, let me know. And you can call back and say, "Hey Jill, I know I got this crazy offer from you two years ago, but we do want to sell and here's the price. And you said you'd do it quick and fast. I might be interested." So just let me know. Speaker 3:                           [inaudible 00:16:59] the file. Jill DeWit:                            Okay. Alrighty, thank- Speaker 3:                           I wanted to know what was what because otherwise I'd be thinking about it and going, "What?" Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. Speaker 3:                           But thanks for explaining what you're doing and- Jill DeWit:                            No problem. I appreciate it- Speaker 3:                           [inaudible 00:17:12] real estate, so- Jill DeWit:                            Yes. Speaker 3:                           Thanks very much, Jill. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Speaker 3:                           No problem. Jill DeWit:                            Take care. Okay, bye bye. Speaker 3:                           Bye. Jill DeWit:                            You never know. Steven Jack B.:                   That is how you take an inbound phone call. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Jack B.:                   Jill, in a very firm and very respectful tone turned that call all the way around. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Jack B.:                   She was mad. You could hear it in the beginning. At the end she was thanking Jill, and that is what it takes. Jill DeWit:                            Thank you. Steven Jack B.:                   I'm just going to go out on a limb here because I know I say stuff on these shows sometimes and you're like, "God." Jill DeWit:                            Go ahead. Steven Jack B.:                   If that is not in your skillset, what you just saw and heard, this business is going to be very hard for you. Jill DeWit:                            Right. And you have to say that with these people. You'd be surprised how many phone calls that I have taken in the last 48 hours that I got a number out of them. They're like, "Oh, okay, well let me tell you, if it was this much money I would be interested." Okay, now we know. And so then I go back and we do our work and then sometimes it works- Steven Jack B.:                   Exactly- Jill DeWit:                            If it's still a good number. Steven Jack B.:                   But to finish my thought ... Absolutely Jill- Jill DeWit:                            Thank you- Steven Jack B.:                   To finish my thought, I don't have that talent that Jill has. I have it if I ... It's in here, I just don't want to do it. That's the truth. So I stick to the data piece and all that. Chances are you're either like me or you're like Jill. And if you find a partner that's the opposite, you're going to do just great. Jill DeWit:                            Exactly. Steven Jack B.:                   I've said this a million times on the air since 2015; when I teamed up with Jill, our revenue quadrupled- Jill DeWit:                            Thanks- Steven Jack B.:                   That week because she does what it takes on the phone with these buyers and sellers and gets them to do what she wants them to do. It's classic Dale Carnegie stuff, and they don't even have any idea that it's happening. I live with her and she does it to me all the time. Jill DeWit:                            I don't even think it's that. It's not manipulation, it's just figuring out if they really want to sell or not. What's going on? It's not manipulating anything, it's getting to the bottom of it. Steven Jack B.:                   Its helpful. That's how I look at it. Jill DeWit:                            And you know what, and if she doesn't want to, she doesn't want to sell. I'm not going to beat her up, who cares? But someday they might. She just told me the guy's 92. Well you know what, he might not make it to a hundred. I'm not trying to be mean or anything but hey, that doesn't mean I'm a bad person. My offer was off, who flipping cares? Steven Jack B.:                   For the record, we don't target- Jill DeWit:                            I don't target- Steven Jack B.:                   There's no age, or there's no way to look at that in assessor data. Jill DeWit:                            We don't look at the obituaries. Could you imagine? Steven Jack B.:                   We just send it- Jill DeWit:                            We don't do that. We don't do back tax properties. Steven Jack B.:                   Price per square foot analysis- Jill DeWit:                            Exactly- Steven Jack B.:                   That letter just happened to get to somebody who was older. Jill DeWit:                            Right. Steven Jack B.:                   That's it. The next one- Jill DeWit:                            The 20 year-old down- Steven Jack B.:                   The next one got to a millennial- Jill DeWit:                            The block got one too. Just bought his first thing. He got a letter too, so that's exactly right. He probably just bought it six months ago, who knows? That property is zoned and priced the way we wanted. Steven Jack B.:                   Exactly. Jill DeWit:                            I think we covered it. That was good. Steven Jack B.:                   We know your time is valuable. Thanks for spending some of it with us today. Join us next time for another interesting episode. Jill DeWit:                            And we you answer your questions posted on our online community that you can find at houseacademy.com. It is free. Steven Jack B.:                   You are not alone in your real estate ambition. Jill DeWit:                            That was kind of fun. Steven Jack B.:                   I think that was incredibly informative. Jill DeWit:                            I hope so. Steven Jack B.:                   I was hoping when it rang that it would be a deal. Jill DeWit:                            I know. Steven Jack B.:                   Because that'd be cool. Jill DeWit:                            That'd be good. Well I'll keep doing this on these shows now and then. When the call comes in I'll just answer it. I think it helps everybody. Steven Jack B.:                   I think it's great. Jill DeWit:                            You got to get over it, and a lot of people are afraid of those calls. You've got to get over the hurdle and it's okay. Well, you know, I had a great call today earlier too. I had one that turned out that she didn't want to sell. She's a buyer, I could tell because she's already down the process of doing their own ... We hit another investor who's already redoing the property. She's thinking she's going to sell to me now and then when it's done. That's not what I want. Slash however, now I can cue up deals to her. She's a buyer, it's really good. The House Academy Daily Show remains commercial-free for you, our loyal listener. Wherever you are watching, wherever you are listening, please subscribe and rate us there. Both:                                     We are Jill and Jack. Jill DeWit:                            Inspiration- Steven Jack B.:                   And information to buy undervalued property.  

What is the one piece of advice that an Apache helicopter pilot has for you? FIND OUT on C-Level: Guest Lucas Rice - So Lucas tell me, if you were to give one piece of advice to somebody in leadership what would it be? - Well I'll tell ya I got a great piece of advice a long long time ago from one of the greatest people in the world, my mother. And a that advice was what's the worst thing can happen, they're gonna say no. And so have the courage to go out and ask. Have the to go out and fight. Cause what's the worst thing they're gonna say? No. - No. _ On this episode of C LEVEL, I meet help with Lieutenant Colonel Lucas Rice Executive Vice President and COO of LDX solutions. - So Lucas tell me a little bit about your story. How'd you get started? Where you're from? - Sure yeah, I originally from Cleveland, Ohio. Grew up there playing soccer. - Indians fan? Of course. - There you go. - Indians and Browns. - Right okay. In reality is I'm just happy when they win anything. - Right, right, right? We're on a roll right now so it's good. - Yeah well my Giants aren't doing to well. - Well that's good. Cause we've had plenty of our own you know loses. - Yeah. - But born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio all my family and friends are still there. Grew up playing soccer was fortunate enough to be on a club team. That I got to travel the world playing soccer. And so it exposed exposed me to more than just Cleveland. - [Interviewer] Right. - And so I realized and wanting to go to college I wanted to go something a little bit further than right next door. So I ended up actually at the United States Military Academy at West Point. I was recruited to play soccer there. And not your normal school. - [Inteviewer] Yeah. It wasn't exactly the party atmosphere that you see here. - Was soccer with what you wanted, you wanted to be a pro soccer player one day? Or what is it? - No I enjoyed playing. I still play till this day - [Inteviewer] Yeah. in an old man soccer league. - [Inteviewer] Yeah. - But no I love the game. I guess I got pretty good at it. And so when it came, when West Point came to me it really turned the tide for me. That it became a sport I could continue to play, but I was going to West Point because of the leadership. The leadership model, the leadership experience that really is. You know folks talk about masters, talk about what their degrees are in. I've got an Aerospace Engineering Degree, but I went to school for leadership. - [Interviewer] Yeah. It really is a leadership laboratory. And so that's what truly drew me to it. - [Interviewer] Yeah. - It was going to the leadership side. So following that of course I had a military obligation. So I did 10 years active duty service. - [Interviewer] Yep. - As a helicopter pilot, I was fortunate enough to pick up Aviation. So I was H64 Apache Helicopter Pilot. - Wow. Spent several rotations through the states. Fort Rucker, Alabama where we training on Aviation. Fort Campbell, Kentucky was there with 101st Aviation. And then over seas so two years in Korea. And then came back to Fort Rucker and realized it at some point need to start a family. My wife's a West Point graduate also.

"Well I'll tell you something, this is no longer a vacation, it's a quest. It's a quest for fun, I'm gonna have fun and you're gonna have fun, we're all gonna have so much ****ing fun..." Clark Griswold This Mind Bullet, Quest, was inspired by two things: a listener, Micheal K., who wrote in suggesting an episode about questions, and Chevy Chase's iconic Clark Griswold character from the Vacation movies.  A little background: Emotionally keyed up and on the edge of sanity after a series of mishaps on his family's way to Wally World, Clark announces that the family trip is no longer a vacation—it's a quest for fun. He goes on to announce that they'll have so much fun they'll need plastic surgery to remove their grins, among other things. (Warning: Clip is played in unedited form, complete with F words.) Quest is at the root of the word question, and quest and question are all part of the same process. We are all on a quest in our lives, and asking the right questions is the key. Asking questions cues our mind to develop answers. Reader Michael suggests that asking questions and answering them is an excellent anchor for the habits we are striving to develop on our quest toward our goals. Listen in to hear more about the relationship between quests and questions, why asking the right questions can set your quest on the right course, and how important it is to dig into the root of words that are significant to us (such as habit!). *** New listeners: By texting the word "HABITS" to the mobile phone number "33444" you will instantly receive your "hack"/habit tracker/habit development template, or you can download it here: thehabitfactor.com/templates. Feel free to share the episode and leave a review on iTunes!  ***** Subscribe iTunes here! Subscribe: Android | RSS ***** TOOLS/BOOKS WE RECOMMEND: Grab your FREE copy of As a Man Thinketh (PDF) right here: As a Man Thinketh The 3 C's of SucCcess (Mitch W. Steel) The Psychology of Achievement (Brian Tracy) The Power of Positive Thinking (Normal Vincent Peale) The Magic of Thinking BIG! (David Schwartz) Think & Grow Rich (Napoleon Hill) The Success Principles (Jack Canfield) Getting Things Done! (Allen's Great Book!) TRELLO! **HABIT FACTOR RESOURCES!!** The New HabitXP Planner! (FREE! The Habit Factor's Tracking Template) The Habit Factor® (website: BLOG, tips, tools and other resources) The Habit Factor® Book (Amazon Kindle) The Pressure Paradox® Book (Amazon Kindle) The Habit Factor app (iOS, Android) The Pressure Paradox™ **WEBINARS** Get Unstuck Course  Habit Mastery: (FREE) Learn the process to Master Habit, Enhance Discipline and Strengthen Willpower: The 28 Day Breakthrough!

In this weeks episode Lisa Tamati and Neil Wagstaff talk about the benefits and disadvantages of using the various technologies available to improve your training results and optimise your performance. From watches to apps and heart rate monitoring they look at the good the bad and the ugly of using these tools. Here is the link to the blog on the Heart Rate Reserve Method of monitoring your training intensity https://www.lisatamati.com/blog/post/45209/A-quick-rule-of-thumb-guide-to-monitor-your-training-intensity/   We would like to thank our sponsors Running Hot - By Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff If you want to run faster, longer and be stronger without burnout and injuries then check out and TRY our Running Club for FREE on a 7 day FREE TRIAL Complete holistic running programmes for distances from 5km to ultramarathon and for beginners to advanced runners.   All include Run training sessions, mobility workouts daily, strength workouts specific for runners, nutrition guidance and mindset help Plus injury prevention series, foundational plans, running drill series and a huge library of videos, articles, podcasts, clean eating recipes and more.   www.runninghotcoaching.com/info and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel at Lisa's Youtube channel  www.yotube.com/user/lisatamat and come visit us on our facebook group   www.facebook.com/groups/lisatamati Epigenetics Testing Program by Lisa Tamati & Neil Wagstaff. Wouldn’t it be great if your body came with a user manual? Which foods should you eat, and which ones should you avoid? When, and how often should you be eating? What type of exercise does your body respond best to, and when is it best to exercise? These are just some of the questions you’ll uncover the answers to in the Epigenetics Testing Program along with many others. There’s a good reason why epigenetics is being hailed as the “future of personalised health”, as it unlocks the user manual you’ll wish you’d been born with! No more guess work. The program, developed by an international team of independent doctors, researchers, and technology programmers for over 15 years, uses a powerful epigenetics analysis platform informed by 100% evidenced-based medical research. The platform uses over 500 algorithms and 10,000 data points per user, to analyse body measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home Find out more about our  Epigenetics Program and how it can change your life and help you reach optimal health, happiness and potential at: https://runninghotcoaching.com/epigenetics You can find all our programs, courses, live seminars and more at www.lisatamati.com   Transcript of the show Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati brought to you by Lisa Tamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:12) Hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here at pushing the limits once again with my business partner Neil Wagstaff in Havelock North. How's it going Neil? Speaker 3: (00:20) It's good. Thanks Lis I am good. Speaker 2: (00:22) Good. And we've got another great show for you today. What are we talking about today? Neil Speaker 3: (00:26) We're going to be talking about using technology. Technology is a great thing. It can be a scary thing. It can be something that can, we can use to our advantage but also if it's used inappropriately it can, it can really slow us down with, with getting the results and performance we want. Speaker 2: (00:41) Yeah. So technology and we have to qualify that in regards to training. Now we're talking about, I'm using technology didn't relate here unnecessary evil in our world, but we are actually going to be talking about things like your Watchers, your heart rate monitors and your strivers and net, my runs and, and apps and, and that type of thing. And how to, how to use it and what benefits they bring, the pros and the cons of doing it. And how we use it a little bit with our athletes, with some of them and not with others. And why that is. So Neo, what watch do you use for starters? What's your favorite? Speaker 3: (01:18) I'm a Garmin fan. I've been a karma fan probably for past four or five years now. And it allows, it gives me the information I want and I'll find the, eh, for the length of runs I'm doing it, it gives me, gives me good battery life, a lot of the accuracy and a lot the lot of feedback it gives me. Speaker 2: (01:35) Yeah, I've got a Alma Gammon girl toe Garmin four runner two, three five as my one. And I'm not a big statistic person generally, so like you're a lot more statistics orientated than they may personality wise, but I still find it things like, you know, your sleep and your sleep quality and how deep you are sleeping and some of those sort of aspects. Good. As well as your heart rate monitor when you're training. But I don't get absolutely hung up on all the statistics like some people do and some people that, so that's a benefit. So we're both Garmin fans but there are a lot of other great watches out there, some too well some of the others polar you know, having a watch that as a sport orientated, watch that you can use it whether you're doing lap times, if you want to control your heart rate all of these things can be beneficial. Speaker 2: (02:24) List. Talk a little bit about heart rate monitoring, how you can use that to monitor the intensity of your training. We've just put up a blog on our website, at www.lisatamati.com which looks a little bit, it was a quick meant to the quick guide to how to sort of workout how intense your training is based on your age. And this is a bit of a, you know, a guide, not to be Satan concrete, but Neil, do you want us to discuss that a little bit and how that happened? Yeah, Speaker 3: (02:58) Let me, I mean the beauty of beauty of watches these days is if you're giving the watch tracker your information, so you, when you set up your watch, it'll ask you if you're age and ask you if your resting heart rate ask you for various different types of information. So the watch will give you very good idea on training zones anyway. What we're not so good at a lot of the time is following those. So if your watch tells you you need some recovery, then listen to what it's what it's saying. So the, the idea being that once you got your heart rates in there, then if your program says you should be doing a high intensity interval training session, then you're going to be operating up at 85 90% of your, your max heart rate. If you should be doing a recovery run. And that could be lower down at 55 60 maybe top 65% of your maximum heart rate. Speaker 3: (03:44) So the beauty of the watch is it will give you all that information so you can use the watch based on your programs. So right, these are the designs and areas I want to work in. If you're not using a watch though and you just want a snapshot of how hard you should be working, then you can use some simple formulas out there. We use the heart rate reserve method or Caveda method. And what we're looking at there is I'm just doing a simple two 20 minus your age punched only two 20 minus your age. You then take off your heart rate and so your resting heart rate and work out your percentages from there. And most people would recommend your workout from 60% up to 90% in 5% increments. And then you simply add back on your heart rate so that your resting heart rates that number and it'll give you training zones. Speaker 3: (04:28) So easiest thing to do with that is refer to the blog. Lisa can put that in the show notes just that day and that take you through, walk you through how to do it and it gives you an idea of where you, where you should be working. Where this becomes really useful is if you've been struggling with runs or you feel like you could get more potential out of your body, then actually doing either a full max heart rate test or actually seeing how your heart responds on a run. It's a really useful way to work out. Are you really getting best bang for your buck? Good example is when we, when we ran when we ran across the country for for Samuels trust and a few years back, I'm, I'm notorious for going out quick and really focusing and this is a good example of, of how not to, not to use a be watch. Speaker 3: (05:13) I become very focused on my case per minute. Okay. So I'm flexing, right? I, I want to say that, for example, a five minute case and that's, that's what I want to want to be doing. So if I'm, if I'm doing that, then that's fine. Up to a certain distance. If I need to be running longer than that's gonna hurt me. Yeah. So what we're very, very well for me with heart rate is going right, I need to be operating at a much lower heart rate. So if I am operating at around one 35 one 40 beats per minute and I know regardless of pace I'm going to be good for a long distance because I can, I can hold that. So bringing in heart rate into the mix there really does start to, it made my training more effective. I didn't worry about speed, I worried about right a stand the zones I set my set, my watch to beep if I went above it and then no worries on how fast it was going. Speaker 3: (06:02) I needed to know that I could last a long time and a long, a long period. So use it for your, for your goal. At the moment I'm running a lot shorter and I'm more interested in getting results for my four four and five K times. So I'm more interested now in taking the data out and going, right. I want to know the heart rate zone. I should be pushing hard for some of my runs and it should be up in the 85 90% effort. More importantly, I can keep an eye on how fast my Kayser and then again on top of that from a technique and performance and efficiency point of view, where's my cadence at? So I know if I can push my cadence up, my efficiency is going to get gonna get better and therefore I'm going to be going to be getting closer to my goal. So use the information in particular heart rates we're talking about here to apply it to your goal. Okay. Apply it to your goal. If you're getting warning signs, like you're going out and doing a recovery run and it's showing you that you are 70, 80, 90% of your max heart rate. Something's not right either with the technology or your body. Speaker 2: (07:00) Yeah. And this is actually we, the has a little bit of limitations and I know that I,n my my life is, is I don't actually conform to the, the age thing. So 220, minus my age, I, if I'm running it there and then trying to do 60 to 80% of that, then I'm actually in the anaerobic zone according to that a whole lot of the time. So it's a general rule of thumb and it doesn't always give you a completely accurate results. So sometimes like I'll be operating at a higher heart rate than I should be, but I know that I'm actually aerobic and I know that because I've got enough experience to, to know where my body is going in and out. Speaker 3: (07:43) With a lot of our one on one clients and there's a couple I've done this with in the past. The past few weeks is we send them out to do a max heart rate test. This can be done on there's no need for it to be done in lab conditions, which isn't practical for most people. So we use a field test we put in place, which are people interested in. We'll send you the guidelines on what the field test is and then that will give you a true maximum heart rate. Once you got the true maximum heart rate, then we work out the percentages from there. And in both of these, these clients' cases once we've got the true maximum heart rate, we then started getting more bang for their buck from their interval, the interval sessions in their threshold sessions. Because all of a sudden we were pushing up a beat cause like you were their age, they weren't, they weren't falling into the averages. So if you're interested in that, what you've got to be willing to do with that though is with the field test you've got, you've got to be comfortable, get pretty much going to your, to falling over. Speaker 2: (08:36) Yeah. And which isn't much fun. But yeah, because there is that, that role of some role of 220 minus your age, you know, can be completely skewed if you're a particularly good for your age, hopefully that's what it's showing me and it's therefore not quite appropriate. So just understanding the limitations of the test. And then using it to your best advantage. And the other side of the side of that coin is that you can become so tied up with the science. And we have some, some of our athletes, a lot of stuff, very much, well looking at the genetic profiles, most of them are crusaders like you kneel and I'm very analytical, very do you want to know about those different buyer types? And if your genetics we can take you through that one day. But very analytical, very statistic buys, very wanting to have all that data and want to be able to work completely with data. Speaker 2: (09:30) And that works for some people, but other people, they find that completely intimidating. They don't want to know all that. They just want to be able to run it and joy and you know, and, and sometimes people get a bit obsessive with the statistics and that can become a actual negative as well because you can be so focused on that you're not actually listening to your body and not actually actually feeling how am I actually feeling right now and should I be pushing this? So it's, it's having the, the, the experience and the wisdom a little bit to use a technology to your advantage but not to, not to be a slave to the technology and, you know, Speaker 3: (10:05) Totally, totally agree. One of the ways I've I've overcome my obsession and addiction with numbers is I I, I I no longer plug my, my, my watching, I plug it in to charge it, but I don't save any of the data or download any of the data. I don't actually look anymore at this point in with where I'm at, cause I use the watch to see where I'm at on my run and then I won't compare runs from previous runs or anything like that. I just look at where I'm at on the day. I use our wellness check with all our clients. So you get a subjective view before I leave for my run. Where am I at from a nutrition point of view, a stress point of view or hydration point of view, movement, niggles, injuries. And then I, I take all that and go, right, I'm feel good to go. (10:47) My scores are good and then I'll just keep an eye on Watchers. I'll go, but I won't any more. Use it as a to go back and track track data sometimes. I that's useful. And for some of, as you, so for some of our opponents we do do that because it gets some great results, but it's very important, which is what you're alluding to is that you use it to your advantage. Speaker 2: (11:07) Yeah. You'll personality chart. Yep. You know, and you make it work for you. And the other, the other danger was things like, you know, or I met my run and Cobra and all those apps that monitor your, you know, your kilometers, you're doing the speed, you're doing it at the, the, the road that you're taking and the comparisons to last week. And then you've got all the comp, the competition that comes out through that. And like, I know my husband finds that great. He loves it. You know, he's always putting his stuff up on striver and comparing how he did last week on that road to how someone else's doing. And comparing where he's on the ranks and all that sort of crap. Whereas I just not interested in that. And the, the problem that can come with that is then that you come, you very much come painting every time you go for a training and you're not actually doing what's on your actual training pain, which said you should be going out for cruisy day recovery day and then you're going fast. Speaker 2: (12:01) Cause you don't want anyone, it's think you can only run X amount of minutes per kilometer. And so you get too competitive and you're not actually following the structure of the plan, if that makes sense. And the flip side of that is also that a lot of people just want to collect kilometers for their strava account because if it doesn't, if it's not on, strava it didn't happen. This is a bit like Instagram, you know, life didn't happen if it wasn't on Instagram. And that mentality can also trip people up because you know, you're, you're, you're not doing it for the right reasons and you're not, you competing all the time rather than actually having a benefit. And what's most important is that you realize that strength training and mobility training, which is what we preach all the time, is also iPod and you are training. So if you're if you're getting an extra 10 K's a week, but you've sacrificed to strengthen your mobility, you gotta be way worse as a runner in the long run than if you had done those. Speaker 3: (12:59) And that's the, I mean that's, that's the beauty of our app as well. Cause you can use strava. Yes. That's actually should be our by line. If it, isn't on running hot app it didn't happen. We can connect to our app strava and Garmin. So you can not only see the runs, you see the mobility sessions completed and the and the strength sessions completed as well. But, but getting that balance, getting that balance as you say is, is key. But just want to come back to the personality types a bit as well, if, because again, for some people who are going through the pros and cons and there's not going to be, we're not gonna give you a perfect answer at the end of this podcast saying this is how to do it. Speaker 3: (13:44) We just want to make you very aware that what you should be paying attention to. The other thing that some people get great results from has been part of the community. So as a big part of what our business and running hall is built on, it's been in part of the community where you get support. So the technology can provide that as well. It can help you do that. If you are part of a community, if you are sharing it on Strava, if you're part of a sharing through Garmin, if you're doing it through running halt, then it does, it does definitely help with allowing you to know that you've got that support and accountability around you. Speaker 2: (14:15) Yeah, absolutely. And so once again, using it to your advantage and you know, so without at, so we have a you know, an a mobile friendly app that you can, you have on your phone and you can use it when you go out and you'll get all your mobility workouts, all your strength workouts as well as your run station. So it's not just counting your kilometers and ignoring the other thing. So it's actually quite good when you have it on your calendar. Yup. Tech, tech tech. I did, I did my mobility, I did my strength and I did my actual run stations to where strap variety counselor kilometers. I so that, that's really important. I think. So. what else? You know what I was sort of technology stuff is out there. Neo and what else do you use? I mean like this, you know, running with music, running Speaker 3: (15:00) Well I'll use, yeah, I use when I'm, when we started creating our programs like five years ago, at least as part of creating the programs weren't for the process of checking they were. And one of the, one of the things we built in one of our foundation programs was using a metronome. So for five weeks on our foundation one program, I literally ran with a metronome to make sure that the intervals were putting together the sessions we were putting together. They worked, they did what they said on the packet and they got the results they they should. Once I tested it, we then tested it, well the people and does it work and as we built the, built the programs up, that's that's how it was done. So running with a metronome is great. If you're looking to increase cadence and efficiency and run more constantly injury free, you can download. We use one from frozen eight you can download a simple metronome, put it on if you want to do what I did and remember the beep in your ear. That's reasonably insane. Way to do it. If you'd rather listen to some music on now I now use, I just got onto a Spotify list Speaker 2: (15:57) and I will download run music for 180 beats per minute. Speaker 3: (16:01) You can do it 170 and there's various different options on there. So do a base test, which you can easily do straight away. Go out and count your cadence, how many times you've put such as a four in one minute. Tom's about to, you can do it off your left foot, your right foot, and then see where you're at. If you want to increase it slightly, go and get some music. If you're at one six, eight go and get some music that Speaker 2: (16:21) Susan, one 70. Yeah. So what is the, what is a good cadence? You know, like I'm for people who don't understand what cadences are speeding your feet that are turning over and then the last time you were actually on the ground, the more efficient your running stylists. So if you're planting your foot and again you've got a very slow and big long strides but slow, steep and you're putting all the weight into the ground each time, then you're not going to be as efficient as someone who's just you know, like running on hot coal was a few like and going very fast with the legs. Smaller, smaller steps perhaps, but they're going faster. That's what you call a high cadence. And that coupled with all the techniques, stuff helps you run faster basically in run more efficiently energy. And you know, that's a topic for another day as forms and drills and so on. But so what is a good cadence in your answer? Speaker 3: (17:11) going go on and look now, then they probably get around that they can, well, they work, they get around the 180 plus and some of the stuff that people will read and again, don't, don't get hung up on it. Another example we're talking on technology you shouldn't get hung up on is you know, if the 180 is the sweet spot and anything above that, then great that there's great evidence there that shows that. However, what we'd rather you do is see where you right now. So we are fans of meeting you where you are at right now and then helping you improve from there. We've had great wins with people improving their cadence from one six eight one seven five and now they're running pain free, no injuries. And the pain that they had had is gone. Speaker 3: (17:56) And they're quite comfortable. Do they need to get up to one I80. they might get small wins, but if they're happy where they are, it's about the individual. So please, when you're looking at all your numbers on your watch, your heart rate, your speeds, your cadence, however you're doing it, and whatever type of technology are you using, please use yourself as the baseline. Don't worry about what anyone else is doing and understand, which we've talked about on other podcasts. Your why. So don't worry about, I speak, we speak to a lot of people that want to get here because that's what, that's what the world says I should do. That's what you're told. You do get to where you want to be because it's your purpose and it's your why and understand that yeah. Improving cadence will help. Having a bit of a heart rate will help, but it should be better in relation to where you want it to be too. Speaker 2: (18:43) Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to have to be an Olympic athlete so we can stop. Where we are at, and it's comparing you to you always, and we're very big on that anyway. That it's not about comparing yourself to every other person on the planet. It's about, you know, doing, doing the base for your body at this time and for your goals that you've got. Sit out for us. What other technology? I'm just trying to rack my brain of different technologies that are out there. I mean, what's your take on running with music? In regards, like for safety on like not a great fan of, of wearing headphones or having things in your ear when you're running on roads and stuff. And even on, even in the Bush, like if you've got both ears covered, I sometimes run with like one athletic in one ear. Speaker 2: (19:30) It's, you know, I like to be aware of my surroundings and you're just sometimes with your toe into the music and it can be really motivating. It can be really good, but you watch out for traffic. Right. Cause you know, I have been hit once and, and when I was running through New Zealand in Oakland and I had my things on and I just didn't hear this car come around the corner and hit me. Luckily I wasn't injured, but you know, it could have been different. And that's cause I hate the things in my ear. And even in nature, I like to, there's this subtle things that your brain picks up when it's actually tuned into your environment and when you put in something in your ears and it can broke out that part of the perception that's on their almost subconscious level. And you can, you know, not hear the, somebody coming up behind you or this, you know, those sort of things. So just being aware of your safety or at all times if you have got stuff in your ear. Speaker 3: (20:23) Yeah, correct. That's , and again, it will be very personal. It'd be very much down to people's people's health type profile and where they're at, what weights, what makes them right. But I think the key message there from, as you say, is make sure it's, it's safe. It's and you aware the environments around you. If you really are gonna need your senses, then don't block them. But if you're running in a safe environment that you know, you know where you're going, you know what you're doing, your notes, you know it's very safe then and music helps you then then use it to help you. It definitely helps me. I'm a huge fan of running your music but there's certain times or a one if I'm running certain areas or yeah, place, I don't know. But it does that, it allows me to relax and get into my, in smaller [inaudible] Speaker 2: (21:12) I was just going to go to a, in regards to technology Speaker 3: (21:17) And I've lost my train of thought. I think the, the, the bits we've covered there leaves with the, you know, the, the main ones of what is the main message we wanted people to take away from this was understanding how to use it to your advantage, understand the, how to apply it to your to your programming, to your goal, to your why. And I think what you mentioned there as well, the, the so many apps out there to help you with your, with your running, with your, with your fitness, with your health fits, choose things based on your why. I think it should be the, the clear message. If you're going to add a tool into the mix with your training, the tool should help you get to your why, your goal, your purpose a whole lot quicker. If the tool is you're just adding it in because everyone else is using it, then if it's not going to give you any value, don't use it if it gives you value personally and that's where we can help because for some people with our programming where we're so right, heart rate training is definitely for you. Speaker 3: (22:16) For others, we wouldn't even, some people, some of our clients I've actually told to throw the Watchers way but more, we don't want to put it away in a drawer. You're not using that for the next six months because it's confusing issue. Yep. Others we say, right, you need to go and buy a watch. But that's because it's very relevant to their, to their why and what they want to achieve. So when you make new choices, make it based on what you want to, what you want to achieve. Speaker 2: (22:37) Listening to your body is always a good message. I think that's probably covered that set subject. Any last words that you wanted to put up and then any other areas that you wanted to cover off under this? Speaker 3: (22:50) No, I don't think we were just bringing people back to full circle to what you finished with there on our a wellness check. So do what you're getting from a technological point, technology point of view. Please, please, please listen to what your body's saying. So our wellness check allows you to do that from a very subjective point of view. So going through a simple checklist of where your body is at each day, we'll let you know where you're at. Trust your trust your heart, and trust your gut with your decisions as well. And that's probably a whole, whole another side. Speaker 2: (23:21) That's the whole another subject. At the moment studying. Yeah. Are you Speaker 3: (23:28) Making your decisions? They, your gut will tell you things. Your brain tells you things and your heart definitely tells you things. But those are those three things where you're making your decisions and includes around the technology. The technology might be worth telling you one thing, but the gut, the heart, the brain one, all three might be telling you another, don't stop listening to this because Speaker 2: (23:48) We've got the technology Speaker 3: (23:49) Well, the technology say tell you something. No one knows you better than you. I don't care what any coach says. Any thoughts or any health professional, the person that knows you better than anyone else's you. So you, you've got all the answers. You just need to choose which tools you're going to take to get those answers. Does that make sense? Speaker 2: (24:07) And you need to trust your instincts and your intuition and use the need to understand when you're being just lazy or when you've been actually sensible. You know? And this is what the wellness check helps people do. So for those who haven't heard us talk about our wellness chip before, it's just basically a spritz switch spreadsheet that you look at every day. That ticks off is an eight different areas I think. So hydration, nutrition, sleep your stress levels, whether you got any injuries and you're writing yourself on a scale of one to 10 now one being not so good, 10 being on point. And if your hydration and nutrition and you had a bad sleep and you had been stressed to hell at work and you meet to go out and do a really intense long session, then that's not a good combination. So you might want to shift days around. Speaker 2: (24:50) And so this gives us a a day by day a taste, a few like a quick one minute taste to say, yep, these are my numbers and Whoa, I'm not doing too well today. I'm feeling a little bit often. My hydration wasn't good and I had a really shitty nights and order this for the staff and then I probably shouldn't go and smash my body on top of it. In the past, I used to, if I didn't feel good, I used to go harder. You know, if I, if I had had a couple of drinks a day before, then I'd gone special South, even worse because I'd been bad. There's actually a really dumb thing to do cause your body's already under stress and you're actually overstressing on top of the streets. And the number one intimate of performance is stress. The number one enemy of, of everything alive as stress. Speaker 2: (25:37) If we have too much stress in our bodies, our digestion doesn't work properly, our immune system doesn't work properly. Intuitive nature doesn't work properly. And Brian Stein say everything, it's got tunnel vision. You can't make decisions. All of these things. So we don't want to be adding to the streets liberals in their body. We want to be working with optimizing our performance and this wellness cheek. I'll put a link in the show notes or you can contact us to get one of those as well. But that's a really good subjective way. You know, old SKO, not part of technology but just a subjective way to test everything. Speaker 3: (26:13) But if your technology laces, if you're, the technology you've got is doing the job, it should, when you test you, when you go through that subjective score, you, if you get it right and you've got in tune with your body, and that's the whole point of going through this we want are the people that are working with us and the people that are listening to us to be in tune with their body. If you're in tune with it, then you've got this right and your scores are low, your watch should be telling you you need sleep and rest. If you, if you, if you scored high, then you'll look at your watch and say, yeah, go run and go and go heart. And that's what important want to get. Where we want to get everyone to is that they're that in tune, that they listen to the body, that that needs the technology. But the technology is just confirming that this is, this is, this is good. You're doing well. Speaker 2: (26:55) It's better to go to a yoga session today, then go into a city, Karen maybe, right? Speaker 3: (26:59) Yeah, and vice versa. Sometimes it's best thought. You go out and you do your 30 K run cause everything's stacking up as it should. Speaker 2: (27:06) Yeah. Alright, well thanks Neil. It's been a great little subject for the today's podcast. I hope you enjoyed that. Just a heads up guys. I had the real great privilege them a couple of days ago being on a do at church radio and just want to give a plug to met and a Eugene over at [inaudible]. It's radio. Fantastic Comcast. Make sure you go and check out that episode that I did with them and also all of their other great guests that that had on there. I think the guys are brilliant. I'm going to have them on my show shortly. So watch out for that and yeah, make sure you go back and check out all the other great podcasts episodes that we've done on here. We've had a couple of great weeks with JJ Virgin last week and Tom Cronin, who's the producer of the portal, a massive worldwide huge movie coming out very, very soon. Speaker 2: (27:52) So you don't want to miss out on all that action. And if we can ask you guys a favor, please go and do a writing and review for the show on iTunes. That really, really helps the show get exposure, get a better rating and all those things are really, really important for the show. So if you enjoy that and you like what we do in the content that we've reduced sets away that you guys can help support the show and we'd really, really appreciate it. And there's always, if you want to reach out to Neil awry, you can reach us either via the website. Just go to Lisa@lisatamati.com. Hit us up on the contact buttons here. You can or you can just email me at least the, at least at lisa@lisatamati.com or neil@runninghotcoaching.com. Okay. All of those things will find us. We're pretty easy to reach. We're on all the social media, at least lisatamati on Instagram. Lisa Tamati on Facebook and yeah, really easy to find and please reach out to us if you've got any questions or we can help you with your journey. We'd love to do that. And we'll see you again next week guys. Thanks Neil. Speaker 1: (28:54) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to rate, review and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at least at www.lisatamati.com.

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Hunters HD Gold is the Official Eye Wear of USPSA and Steel Challenge anecdotally I have seen their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting starting with where I first saw them at the PCC and Rimfire Championships. If you are aware of Hunters HD Gold odds are you have met my guest Brian Conley. Speaker 1: [inaudible].  Speaker 2: Hey everybody, and welcome back to the Cindy cast on this episode we've got Brian Connolly from hunter's HD gold. They're the official eyewear of USPSA and still challenged. And anecdotally I've been seeing their eyewear showing up all over competition shooting, starting with where I saw them first at the piece of seat and rimfire championships. If you're aware of hunter's HC gold, odds are you've met Brian.  Speaker 3: He's joining us now. How are you doing Brian? Hey, what's going on? Gosh, it's been a, it's been too long since we've been in the dirt together. It's been over a year at this point. It has and I'm have not been back to, um, where we met and um, it, Lucas all arranged so far yet this year. That was a pretty long ago. Yeah. I mean, just to be straight, I don't think anybody has, I mean, I went there twice last year, so I'm not missing, I logged 21 days in that house last year. Well, I never got the pleasure of I'm staying in the house. I had to drive to Warsaw every day, so I got it. Yeah, it's um,  Speaker 4: I, oh, sorry. I got my dog, Lucy here. Who is going to come here? Cool. Get in there. You're going to take a little break. Come on. Oh, you're all over my stuff and we're going to have to drop an edit in here. You're working loose Kendall up. There you go. All. Alright. She is a  Speaker 3: business associate and my secret lover, but um, she's a pain in the ass sometimes. All right, so here we go. So yeah, you know, Lucas, um, it's an interesting thing. They, um, you know, I was involved. So last year I was involved with um, strategic mash design and a couple of other companies that were doing major events and um, I got into it on the, well they wanted me to do media, which translated to, would you also do our prize tables? Wow. Yeah. So I did six last year and um, and then, you know, and it was, I learned a ton. It was totally worth the, the mental exercise. And at the same time, I don't think you'll see me doing that again. I can understand that. I actually had to, um, had the joy of walking a prize table for somebody this year when they weren't gonna be able to walk it.  Speaker 3: And I decided that was the first and last time I want to do that as well. So yeah, I definitely have my, I want to talk about prices with you a little bit cause you guys have been really gracious, but you also have kind of a spin on that that I really like. Um, so then we can talk about a little bit later in the cast as we get deeper into, um, hunter's ht gold specifically. But tell me before we do that a little bit about you, like you started out in insurance, is that what I've, I'm gathering, I've been in retail management since I was, um, 21. Okay. And I, I'm 48 now. Got It. I used to tell everybody I sold everything buddy insurance back. And then I had a friend of mine who was, um, owned an insurance company and he says, Hey, well go get your, go get your license and everything and this and this. He had a  Speaker 5: practice. He was starting up an insurance. I was like, well sure, why not? So 50 exams to the hardest test. I still keep those. I'm insurance licensed current today. He'd taking the ced seat CD be correct. Can't talk, taking the credits every two years to keep my license current in the state of Alabama. So I've got a backup plan. If I ever got to go back and sell insurance, I'm not going to lose my license cause I think now they're requiring a lot more to get your license and insurance, everything else. So every couple of years I walked back into a classroom and take eight hours of credits and um, fulfill those. But based on how everything is going now, I don't really think I'm gonna have to go back down that path. And You Thompson know you guys are having a great run and uh, well so tell me like how do you go from now you, you were born and raised in Alabama, right?  Speaker 5: Yeah, I was born in Tuscaloosa and in 92, um, moved up in Birmingham. I had been in Birmingham area every since. And, um, you know, I got, you know, like I said, I went to school and, um, at the university and, um, when in criminal justice and had a path set there for me but never really finished. Once I get into retail sales, um, got a call from the local police department that I was gonna go work for. And um, they tell me my starting salary, I think back there was going to be 16, five, and at that time in retail management as a young manager at 21 years old, I'd made I think 30 something thousand dollars. So I might've, I made a commitment in our decision and saying, well, I'm not gonna, um, turn around and look back. I can make this much more money and not get shot at.  Speaker 5: And, um, then that's kind of the path that shows every since I got that. And I would, I would imagine there's more than one human being that made that calculation in their lifetime between laundry is one of those things that, um, I've never been in a situation where I haven't had gainful employment based on being in that kind of environment. Had to change jobs a lot because in retail management, the way you may got a pay raise was getting recruited by somebody else certain or changing in a career path to sell something different. So, um, lots of, um, lots of training through that, through the years being able to go from different positions. I've managed and sold everything from, um, let me see, you know, video contents backward guy started in 92 selling big springs and camcorders and after five years that company closed up, they wrote about Tandy Corporation went to go manage your radio check and then I didn't like selling the parts that made the big screens when I was selling the big screen.  Speaker 5: So I got out of that and went to another type of sales. But I've managed everything from targets to the best buys to being in the wireless industry for multiple years. And then, um, then I was in of course like we just talked about selling them insurance with a, um, insurance agency. And then, um, my current wife's ex husband at the time, you know, called me about wanting to do their marketing and, um, stuff for the lab that I worked for now. Yeah. And, um, that was kind of an interesting blend, but we had a great working relationship and, um, started doing marketing in the lab business. So I went from the selling retail to, I'm talking directly to ophthalmologist, not Tom Matricis about how to, um, improve their sales in their field and quote unquote selling the accessories that were up. Because in the optical world, the essential, these are, you know, ars photochromics colors, tans, anything, you know, something besides just the normal thing that insurance is going to cover.  Speaker 5: And I did that for four years and then, um, got involved with, um, I'm all over the place. But then I got involved with, um, two other friends that were, one was a Napkin kinda strain. One was an older gentleman that I've known forever or 15 years now that was in the wireless industry. And we went together and bought some hunting property. And that was in back in, um, 2013. Um, place called triple forks hunting. We do executive hunts and stuff like that. So I had all these tools at the lab and I wanted to make myself a hunting lands and I wanted to, you know, something to enhance my hunting, you know, for what I was doing. Cause I had, um, prescription outwear and I kinda had all the, all the fun toys to play with at the lab to design something. And that's Kinda, you know, the beginnings of where I've got, you know, where I am now.  Speaker 5: So it really cool. So that's optical prescription lab, which is the, the lab, correct? That's correct. And incorrect. Triple fork hunting LLC was something you created in 2013 it looks like. Yup. Yup. That's correct. And that's where we basically, we didn't just want anybody with a hunting license and you know, a gun to come hunt. We wanted to open it up to corporations or a place for them to bring their employees and um, and really have a place to, you know, bond and um, team build based on the, you know, you know, to build the relationships with either their clients or their employees and works extremely well. And one of my business partners is still running that more. I'm not running it as much based on where hundreds HD go does that now. So I'm lane is really stepped up and made a difference for that, keeping it going on the side.  Speaker 5: So cool. I'm always curious about something. So you're, you're, I mean at this point, whether you intended to or not, you're heavily involved in the firearms industry. Um, and so, well you're not selling guns. You're definitely directly marketing to that group with both the hunting and the, the, the hunters HD gold. So did you grow up with guns? Did you, how'd you fall out? This is, my dad had guns and um, we always use, I mean, we used to only brought them out. Usually when we traveled, it was kind of the time he put the gun in the, you know, in the trunk. And we traveled to Texas to see his family and my mom's family in Fort Worth, you know, Dallas area. And that's how I remember about growing up with the guns that don't really have the history of out shooting guns myself. I just remember my dad would always take guns out there and trade with some relatives and stuff like that. Um, October of 2011, my, um, father passed away and we stayed with him the last two years of his life. I'm helping him. He died of, um, cancer and he was in a situation where, um,  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: that's where I inherited, you know, seven guns that he wanted me to have guns. You know, why? Um, grandfather was the mayor of, um, Bessemer, Alabama for 18 years. So he had these guns that bought a shot, guns and um, all these 11 Remington, 11 hundreds that were, um, back from the fifties and sixties. And how all these pictures with, um, local, um, celebrities, we'll call it the, um, bear Bryant's and stuff like that of shooting these guns and out shooting together and doing a bunch of 'em dog hunting and stuff. So there's a lot of history with these guns that I inherited. And that's Kinda what got everything started. Cause every time I look at sharing, we're talking or something, I always like, you know, you realize your fathers, you know, started this back in 2011, just had no idea where I was going to go. Yes.  Speaker 5: So that kind of got me involved in, you know, collecting guns and um, and getting started there in 2011. And that's what caused me that, you know, back here in the, um, previous presidency where I was wanting to say anyway, he bought some property and, you know, I have a place to shoot this and train and you know, hot and, you know, and everything else that was being, you know, jeopardize back in the, um, the 2000, you know, late 2000. Yup. Years of that. And, um, that's kind of where everything got started. And then when I actually had a gentleman, when we were building the lake at, um, triple forks hunting and, um, had a gentleman, Marketo bulldozer, it, it was moving dirt for the lake and he comes up to me and goes, hey, I need you to get me some more of this wasp spray.  Speaker 5: Um, that looks like it's in Pelham, Alabama. And I was like going, Huh, it's in my backyard. Sure. I go and look into it. Yeah. And, um, so I took this can, it was, um, kind of rainbow wasp spray. So I took it to the building and um, had to be buzzed in. They weren't open to the public and I was like, I walked to the door and I was like, Hey, I want to buy this wash spray. And I'm like, well, we really don't sell to the public, but hold on one second. And they went back in the back and then gentleman came out and he was like, where'd you hear about this? And I want it just to go on a bulldozer and I'm no, Port Alabama handed it to me and said, you know, come get some. He goes, well, we really don't.  Speaker 5: Some of the public, you know, but, but however, you know, here's the icing on the land of Basaam and you know, so forth and I'll let my business card with you before it's hunting. And he gave me his, um, and um, I went off on my merry way and went online and ordered some. And um, then about, yes, about a week later, if not yet, not that long. Um, the one of the owners of Rainbow Technologies, Larry Joe steely junior called me up and says, you know, hey, I see that you have a hunting camp and, um, so forth and tell me about that. When did that process, and he actually booked a hunt with his brother and one of his employees to come out there during hunting season. And then, um, we become a cane. You know, Franz went after, did the hunt together in the early fall, late fall season when the hunting season was starting.  Speaker 5: And, um, he saw the lenses there that I had used. I'd made up some just some demo stuff there as you want to use tested with, um, you know, people that were coming to hunt. I'd already was testing the lens with some game wardens, stuff like that. You know, just trying to get their feedback and stuff cause I was made a lens that, you know, allowed me to see a lot earlier in the mornings to hunt and in the state of Alabama hunting hours of defined 30 minutes before sunrise and 30 minutes after sunset. These were actually bringing in enough light to be able to hunt during those hours when it's pretty dark. So having the hunting property, I'd already made friends with a bunch of the game wardens cause I wanted them to be, you know, the places, two hours from where I live. So I always wanted them around the property to be able to keep watching what was going on and gave them full rights to come out there anytime they wanted to.  Speaker 5: They saw some suspicious, you know, come hang out at the place and you know, using this, it's kind of your home base. So that met Larry and Larry come out there and did a hunt and he got me involved in them. He goes, you ever do any competitive shooting or anything? And I was like, no. And um, he was doing cowboy action shooting and not a time slap, you know, single action shooting to Saudi SAS. And he got me involved in that and I was pretty intrigued cause I always, you know, like I said, I was collecting guns that look like this was going to give me another reason to, um, to buy some more guns, which I was all about. So got my cowboy outfits together and um, we got me at, um, an 1873 navy arms of Winchester that had been ridden and um, couple of Ruger voke heroes that we'd set off to have tripped out.  Speaker 5: Um, stoker double barrel shotgun and I wish you can. Cowboy action shooting was a blast. And I've had these lenses I've made there and I'm using them. And couple of locals there were like, what are you wearing? It's awesome. And made Larry Joe some of course, and he was all about it. And Larry Joe steely, if you don't recognize that name, he's the gentleman that now alone still target paint. Oh Man. That's the correlation there. This is before still target pink was even created. Yes. So if this time, you know, he was telling me, you know, I'm thinking about making a paint for the steel targets, he saw a need there. And um, the locals were all kind of intrigued about what I'd done with these. Lindsay goes, I really think you got something here. You gotta to see what you can do with it. And I started getting more intrigued cause I was already, I was kind of, you know, thought about going down the hunting road and I was doing a couple of, I didn't do any shows.  Speaker 5: I was visiting a couple of 'em, you know, directs expos and stuff like that. Just trying to see what was going on and made it a couple of visits to shot show with, um, some of my friends that start arms, they're hearing best from Alabama, about 20 minutes away and became good friends with them. So I was, you know, intrigued in what was really happening around the lands and what kind of feedback I was going to get. So I went to shot show a couple of years before it was, um, anything just to see if anybody was offering something I'd already created in the lab and make sure I wasn't walking into something that was already there. So why create something that somebody else is already putting out there? And there's already a market that's already been exposed to it.  Speaker 5: Um, come to find out there was nobody that was putting a traffic's lands together with a photochromatic combination. And, um, so I was even more intrigued to see where this would really go. And then I guess about a year later, Larry Joe Staley Jr was running, you know, had his thing going with still target paint. And he had called me up and says, I think I found a way pressed again and the competitive shooting, I was like, what do you mean? You know, everybody, you know, Sass already knows about it locally. You talked about something that goes, no, no, I think it's something bigger. Even with this thing called steel challenge. He goes, he had met a, he had met a competitive shooter named Steve Foster out of Georgia and was thinking about putting a team together. And um,  Speaker 1: okay,  Speaker 5: he asked me if I wanted to, um, sponsor the team. I was like, well sure, what does that, what do you want? What do you want to do? He goes, well, I'm just very, we put them all in hunters, HD gold. Well I'll put a Jersey together and we'll get your, you know, logo on the Jersey. And I said, sure, why not? Sounds great. And um, that's Kinda how I got involved with, um, steel challenge. Really cool. Wow. Oh my goodness. An interesting, you know, why do you get into it? Cause I had no idea what I was doing and I was, you know, I knew what I was doing on the land side, but I had no idea what the, um, competitive shooters of steel challenged was. I knew about Calloway shooting cause I've been doing that for about, you know, six or eight months, you know, once or twice a weekend.  Speaker 5: And I had a lot of fun with that. I didn't really think it was going to go much farther. And I was focused on the hunting side. So we were already testing a lot of products at triple forks hunting. I was obtained up with, um, Pradco, they're here in Birmingham as well and they all, they all Moultrie summit on tree stands Code Blue Night and hell game calls a lot of other brands. Yeah, I had come pretty close with veil and still close with them. Today. I'm testing their products out in the field and I'm had a lot of those guys, you know, helping me. Um, did some testing with hunters HD going and having some other avenues with on the hunting side. You know, with, I'm trying to get a hundred HD go to see what kind of um,  Speaker 5: way I could break into the industry. You kind of see what that looks like with my, with my lenses, but I'm meeting, I'm stay, you foster kinda change that entire direction. I kind of told the hunters I'll be back with you later. This is something that's really happening now. And Steve Foster had actually told me that um, he was always finished in second and third and once he got a hold of the 160 go and he was actually finishing first, that's the only thing he changed. Found that kind of, you know, intriguing because I didn't realize, you know what, I was really opening up to the competitive shooters to find them a shooting at vantage. I knew we had one in cowboy action shooting, but the targets are a lot closer and there's not much distance involved. It was just about more of transitioning and being able to work a leap or action and reloading your shotgun fast regardless,  Speaker 3: regardless of the platform, regardless of the game. I think Jerry Mitchell, he says it best is like you can see it fast, you can shoot it fast.  Speaker 5: Yup. And that's what [inaudible] when we were thinking about slogans, we were going through that, my wife and um, we were going back and forth cause one of the things she said is you can only shoot as fast as you can. See that's what it is. That's what it is. She always wants to put something together with the lenses being able to change in the eye. And she actually came up with a slogan as well. They changed so you don't have to. So that was kind of, you know, that kind of told a story about you know, the land without, you know, getting too much into it just because I have a lot of people would still walk up to the tent today when I traveled and I go, what is this? They changed it. I'll have to, and it just opens up the story. So it's working real well.  Speaker 3: That's really good. Well, okay, this is like, you just opened up like a bout a thousand conversations. Okay, good. So first thing I want to say is, is I've been, I've been in the firearms industry now for Ah, well, let's see. I've been really engaged as a consumer for about seven or eight years now and I've been engaged as a service provider for let's say five or six of those years. And I can't tell you how many people stumble into their careers. Like I just was looking for something for myself that worked better. Alex gun works. Great example. That guy just wanted a gun that worked better for himself, made a gun work great, kept making him. Um, you know, I'm here, I hear this over and over and it's really interesting to me how few people in the modern games are, um, on the gaming side of things.  Speaker 3: Uh, started with hunting and started a lot. I mean like, you know, you and I both grew up, like I didn't grow up around guns and sound like you, you know, you had him in the House, dad had him, but no, it wasn't like you grew up shooting every weekend or he lived on the farm shooting all the time. Um, and just how many people have like really who have really advanced the sports significantly come from like a whole different world of um, you know, uh, firearms used to saw post 18, you know, um, it's fascinating. But let's do this. I um, so when you were starting to develop this lens, so let's just explain this to those who you know, I'll give the simpleton. So for those of you who aren't watching this on video or you've never seen 180 gold lens is a essentially a very bright yellow lens, not unlike what you've seen in inexpensive, um, lenses.  Speaker 3: Like, if you just saw somebody walking by, you know, you find that like you buy the three pack, there's the smoke, there's the red and there's the yellow and you throw away the yellow and you take the smoke and the red with you out to the right, you know? Um, and so it looked kind of like that, but then you put them on and instead of it just liking everything, like super vivid and uncomfortable. Cause when I wear yellow lenses, I'm just like, I mean it's just like I'm being assaulted by light. I don't like it. You put these on and it takes a second. Especially if you haven't worn them before and then you sort of like, I don't know, you're like relax into this. Just sort of flow a light into your eyes all day. And what you don't notice is they're photochromatic so they're adjusting and the amount of light they're letting in based on the conditions outside, which is something like, you know, if he told me his photochromatic I immediately would be thinking of my brother's like 1978, you know, a glasses that he wore that were just not cool by even 1978 standards does that.  Speaker 3: But as a shooter, as a competitor outside all day long and all kinds of different light, you know, light's always changing and you're either switching lenses all day long or your, you know, you could wear these and they give you that all day sense. And I, I use them all the time. Um, I have them, I mix them with a couple of other things and I want to talk about that with you in a second. Cause I've recently gotten into this tactical games thing and um, I think I need a specific set of la or like frame for that. I got it. I'll talk to you about that, maybe offline, but like, um, cause I've got, I w you know, you made me, you gave me a set of the archers right away, the day that we were out there and um, at, I think that was PCC championships, there's a PCC roll championship.  Speaker 3: Give you a pair of orange shoes to wear around. I wore, Oh man, I wore them all. I wore them for the two days of the event. And see for me the biggest issue I have is I'm always transitioning back and forth between shooting the guns and dealing with cameras and electronics when all that kind of stuff. So like I'm changing things now. My eyes have gotten a little a showing off my, you know, readers right now, but my eyes in the last couple of years have significantly, um, diminished and quality. But I'm, I'm always switching back and forth between glasses, between what I'm shooting with when I'm working with, you know, polarized glasses, make my screen look like crap. Um, you know, there's a lot, whatever you go back and forth. So like I where it's just become kind of a thing for me. I've always got three or four pairs when I'm going to shoot and do cameras.  Speaker 3: I always just wear the eight hundreds HD gold now cause they just worked perfectly for both. Um, and the only negative is occasionally I've got to flip them up so that I can like make sure my color balance is correct before I start filming something. I have on a couple of occasions gotten an under saturated shot cause my lenses were exaggerating the Co, you know, so much the color richness. So, um, and I just, so I use them all the time and you've got a couple of friends here up in town now. Like A, Dustin Sanchez is one who is wearing your lens now and um, and they're released. We made him a pair of custom pair as well. Yeah, I know. I know we're all were us three gunners or a bunch of premadonnas or like I can't possibly wear  Speaker 5: in shooting sports offhand. That I think I learned that the hard way at the PC works with PCC world championship and everybody goes, Oh, all righty.  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well look, I mean, and I, you and I had a pretty cool interview. If you go to the huck origins youtube channel, there's an interview of the two of us that I did, um, at the PCC champion. No rimfire we met at PCC, but we did that when it rimfire and I'd had some experience then with your lens and that's when you made me the ones in the Oakleys. I was like, I love these lenses. I don't like the frames. Okay. Whatever. So, and we've had this conversation, we don't need to rehash this, but um, so you made me a set of Oakleys I took a set up. Yeah. I think I took a set out of my car and sent him with you. And you made a set of Oakleys for me with these lenses. And those were the ones that were, I mean, I literally wear 'em all the time.  Speaker 3: That where I'm driving around I where I'm there, they're kind of my constant rotation. If I'm wearing black boots, I'm wearing my hunters h g gold for wearing brown boots. I'm probably still wearing my Oakleys, but you know, so, um, so that's Kinda like I'm a pretty simple guy. It's like my glasses go with my boots. Um, but, um, and then I wear them, you know, all summer. I am also setting up matches I'm doing. And then I shoot the match and they work all day for all of that. And we run right up until nine o'clock here in Minnesota, which this time of year we're getting to the point where it's almost dark and I'm not switching to clears, which is just huge. Um, I can't, I wouldn't tell you if there's an advantage per se, um, in my shooting, but I'm not at the level where like any, especially any more where like you, I would notice such a subtle difference.  Speaker 3: Right. You know, not, not a hundred thought at first place, you know. Um, and so, but I will say that just from a personal comfort level, they're fantastic. And then I wear 'em all the way home in the car because I have like a blue light thing. It's like I tried to get my s I'm really conscious of my sleep and um, and they block some of the blue light from my car all the way home, but I could still see and drive and they blocked glare. So they just kind of cover me from the moment I leave the house till the moment I come home and I never, the glass is just managing that. So that's kind of like the layman's term of what they're doing. But I'm curious from your standpoint, like what was the design philosophy like? I mean, I know you tried a bunch of different things, but what did you finally end up with? Well, there was a lens that came out  Speaker 5: how many years ago? Back in the light, I guess early two thousands and then went through the probably 2010 or left. And that was a, um, company that had put out a actual actual shooting and hunting lands that had been discontinued. And that gave me an idea where to start at, because when I was talking to my wife about what I wanted to do, she goes, I think there's already something like this out there. I said, well, why is it not being, you know, talked about? And she was like, well, doctors don't, the aren't talking about it because they aren't asking their patients lifestyle questions. They're just trying to get through as a general thing. They're just trying to get through and do the eye exams and try to control what insurance is going to pay him. But they're not selling multiple pairs of glasses. Right. And that's something we deal with every day still today in the optical industry.  Speaker 5: You know, trying to get doctors to talk about more lapdog questions. Because when you get into people's, you know, what they do besides, you know, just going to work every day, you know, they need glasses for different things that they do. And if you're on a computer all day, there's a computer lands. If you're playing golf, there's a golfing lens. If you need no shooting and hunting, we now know there's a hunting lands. If you are driving, there's a driving lens that helps out for different things. And I'm fishing of course you need Polaroid polarized lenses and fishing and you need prescription polarized lenses and you know, you can find that by actually talking to people. And that's what I kind of brought to the optimum industry with all my years of experience in retail was qualifying a customer to really, you know, talk to them and find out what other needs they may have than just needing quote unquote glasses.  Speaker 5: And that's what gave me the idea of running into so many different things, whether it be with a hunting lands, because you know there's a lake, I don't know how much you want to remember. I'd probably do somewhere, but going through all the R and d of the one away lenses that this thing I'll work cause I know work. Yes, I like this, but no I don't like this. And then, you know, we, we threw away a lot trying to find the right combination of what we wanted to do and, or what we wanted to accomplish and what we wanted to accomplish was, um, one, we knew that the base of being tribex was superior to plastic or polycarbonate hands down because tribex by itself is lighter and stronger than plastic or polycarbonate, and also allows 43% more light to pass through the lens than polycarbon now.  Speaker 5: Okay. Wow. We knew the only other optics that are better than tribex is glass. And we didn't want to have glass anywhere around any including my own, anywhere near around our eyes as something catastrophic happen because glass, you know, shards and just is a disaster for your eyes. Yeah. That's not that dog will hunt. But believe it or not, I still see people wearing Kostas every day when they go shooting. And that's just, you know, I like coach. I, there's that role with that coach is a great brand. So [inaudible] jams. There's a lot of great brands out there in the [inaudible] industry, but those are fishing glasses. And that's how they marketed. But people still use them today because they want the, you know, the big C on there, you know, they're on their truck when they go hunting. That's just part of it. Totally. But if you stand around any three gun match, you rimfire match anything where the steels be in shot, you're going to eventually end up a wipe and blood off your face from a frat.  Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. And when I went to my, when I went to Sherri and I said, this is where I'm wanting to go with this, I really think I've got something. And um, she goes, well, where the hell is our liability? I'm not taking a company. We started back in 1977 and gets screwed up or something. We just coming up with and I was like, oh, well that makes sense. I said, hell no, I'll get back with you. So about two days later, I got back with it. I said, I figured it out. We're gonna do everything. And um, OSHA safety frames and all the lenses. We're going to do an ansi standard 2015 cause most of the cyclins that are out there, only 2000, three, 2010 and we're going to take it all we 2015 and she says, well get me the OSHA certificate and you can go from there.  Speaker 5: And um, about six months later I got everything approved going through a lot, some more trials and this working and not working and paying a lot of money to have a bunch of lenses come back to me and didn't pass and trying to figure out why and put other coatings together and other solutions together to finally get the certificate. And um, we move forward at that point. And that's what informed the original selection of frames. Correct. Is the ocean rating. That's, you know, that's why we have the frames we have, cause they're all Ziad, seven plus one and z 87 plus two for prescriptions. And that's the difference than our frames are. And you should have saw the frames that were out when we first got started. We'd come along on frames because you know, there's no such thing as a sexy safety frame. And now wife to this day still hates these frames as a huddle.  Speaker 5: And the new velocity that we just came out with was another frame style that finally came out that we worked with the manufacturer to get some that were listening to us to try to get some things like we want. And that's kind of where we're at now. And I've got some, still have some frame manufacturers I'm working with up in New York area that are, you know, tried to design more and more stuff. That is, I'm quote unquote getting more of a more photo friendly. Here's your commitment. Those to stay OSHA approved with all of your frames. It is okay. And the reason being is is it's about safety. We're talking about safety, we're talking about protecting the only two eyes you're gonna have period. And you know, do we have some stuff out there? What? You've got one that's not us framing. We have the conversation, it's got the same properties, it's got the same thickness, it's got the same everything. But you've got to remember, I can't put an anti rated frame and a non safety frame. So conversation I have with you, you got the same thing. It just doesn't have the Ansi markings. Correct. It won't, you know, based on what OSHA has put in front of us, it will not, you know, provide the same protection. But conversation is, is this the same thickness as the same everything you know, it should, you know, just don't have the same, you know, Angie ratings on, yeah.  Speaker 3: So does that, does that make it impossible to have a, a lens that has no w you know, sorry I say this better. Does that make it impossible to create an OSHA rated lens that doesn't have any frame around like the bottom half for example?  Speaker 5: Not at all. There's one thing about it, there's not an interchangeable lands out there that is OSHA approved. I got now. Now that was saying that we are working on some things now on a model that's going to roll out if everything still goes as planned in January of 2020 yeah. So we have been, we've got some things in testing. We're still waiting to get some stuff back from, um, the writings. But there is that OSHA approved, you know, rimless frame that we are working on. That's going to be a game changer for almost to get into the shotgun world more. And also to get in a situation where we can deliver what you and all the other shooters you're telling me, you know, hey, what can we do to get nothing at the bottom? What can we do to get nothing, you know, there, so we're working on that.  Speaker 5: Um, that's gonna be a whole different, um, level of taking it to the next level for hunters HD because one of those things that's going to be, you know, we've still got to worry about the, um, the safety, but we're trying to listen very diligently to every, you know, shooter we can to get the feedback. Cause when I do demo days, I do it for two reasons. One is to go out there and use the Lens, you know, I know what they're going to like about it, but I want to, I want to hear more from the shooters that don't like it. Yes. Can I tell them that? Because if this is where I can take the brand in the future, does it mean it's going to happen tomorrow? No, but if I get enough feedback on a certain area, just like we were talking about now with rem lists, then guess what?  Speaker 5: The future is bright. We're going to have a rimless site, the frame going as planned. And when you talk about that then you're talking about different shapes and different things best. Let's make clear, it's not going to be just a one piece frame. We've talked about one piece lands, we talked about that before, that that's an injected molding process and it's all, you know, call the carpet. There's a lot of things there that, you know, we're limited to the blanks of the, of the, of the lands itself at 80 millimeters. You know, it's gonna have to still be two separate lenses, but it's going to be something that is going to be, you know, lighter and uh, keep the same strength as well.  Speaker 3: Well let me, let me dig into this a little bit cause this is like really interesting to me personally. And I, you know, and I don't know if others will enjoy it. And that's not really why I do this. Um, so, so really cool. So like I would say, you know, arguably, well first of all, there's, there's a lot of great conversations and I want to exclude a handful of things to begin with to make life really easy and fair for us to have a conversation. So, um, I let me say this anecdotally, I am standing at Ahrens and arms, which is an awesome gun shop here in town. We sell lots of high end equipment, lots of high end guns. If you want three gun gear, you're probably coming or USPSA gear, you're probably coming to us, right? And they'll, um, I can't tell you how many people are like, like, I mean, just like, uh, obsessing about the details between two or three, $2,000 optics for their rifle.  Speaker 3: And then they tell me that and I asked them what shooting glasses they're wearing and they're spending about $45 over the counter. And I'm like, ew, this doesn't matter. Get the cheapest thing possible. Cause you know, if you're not gonna look through a good lens. So we can, we're excluding everything in the, in the lower cost categories for the most part in this conversation. Right. And I say that because, you know, this is one thing about a hundred days she called. This is not an inexpensive lens, right? That's correct. Yeah. And so this is somebody who's looking for a very high end, very tailored lens specifically for what they're up to. Now you go into rim fire or steel challenge shooters, they're always living with a single focal point with their eyes or sh or directly through the glass and they're making small adjustments, right? They're not having to like calculate targets, you know, 90 degrees to their left in order to see where that's happening before they break a shot and move.  Speaker 3: Right? There's certainly not dealing with what we're dealing with, whether they're looking through the top of their eyes and the bottom of their eyes, depending on the angle up and down, they're dealing with [inaudible] long range rifle shooting. So, um, then we kind of get into like what's out there in the, you know, premium marketplace and really there's only a couple. And I would assume you hear a lot about Oakley in your world, right? Just cause the Oakley's the, um, the painless, you know, there's a lot of ranger arms, there's a lot of Nice stuff. Yeah. And they make two lenses. We specifically see a lot of in our world, which is the flax, which is a two lens interchangeable model. And then the tombstones, they have a couple of versions of the wraith and whatever. Um, and I have a set of the tombstones that I use.  Speaker 3: Those are my primary, if I'm doing lots of shooting on multiple angles at different, you know, targetry and all kinds of stuff, that's one of my go to lenses because it's lightweight wraps around the head and I've got completely unobscured vision anywhere. I might, you know, angle the gun short of like shooting down through my feet, which doesn't happen very often. Oh yeah, it has happened, but it doesn't have ever happened. That's usually a result of some sort of catastrophic mistake. On my part where now the only way that you can engage the target is on my back through my legs. Um, but that's a hasn't happened. It has. Um, and that's, I go to that Lens for that very specific reason. So big terrain matches lots of running, lots of open space. That's something I'm wearing. Um, that's the only other shooting lens that I wear besides the HD Gold's now.  Speaker 3: And, um, and so for me, that's the one thing about these glasses that I, you know, and even with my Oakleys, which are perfect, um, that's the one time that I don't wear them. And that's just because I just don't have the Mo. I mean those, I think the wraith and the, the tombstone line has got arguably the most field of view available without obstruction on the marketplace. So I'm not sure where I'm going with this other than to say like, how are you dealing with that? Um, cause you're, you're convincing three gunners, slowly but surely, I'm starting to see these things show up. Um, you know, obviously it's an objection you're dealing with. What is the conversation like around that?  Speaker 5: Um, take them to trial. Yeah. Really, really tight. Come and try him. Um, cause I, and I've had this conversation with some shooters, I won't mention their name, but because they are very, they do a lot of training and they're very specific in what they do. And I don't want to get involved in some detailed conversations. Yeah. When the, when you try them and you use them and you put yourself in a, and when I, I'll back up 20 seconds, I'll tell you, I'll tell them to take them with them off the stages. Yeah. Well the walk that, you know, they got to 10 minutes so I'll take, take them with the law at this stage. No, I can, when I did a lot of matches, especially three Golytely, they've all been championships. Nobody likes to change gear in the middle of the match. Correct.  Speaker 5: I get that they're already there. They're there to win. They'd been practicing. So take them and try and when you want the stage. And that's my soft approach to saying, put them on, see where the contrast is and when you walked the stages, you know, walk and see exactly what's happening when you move your head with these lenses. Um, come to find out with the new velocity that we have, um, that we just came out with in January for USPSA Ayers gives a lot wider view than people imagine with a smaller lands. And that's a little bit more wrap on it. But  Speaker 1: yeah,  Speaker 5: people are finding out, you know, when they, when they see me at the [inaudible] that can put them on, they're like, well I can see this. I can see that. Well of course you're not engaged in high heart rate, high situation, the timer's not going off and your focus is not where it needs to be, which is through your optics, where your sides, um, when this happens for lack of a better vision, for lack of better words, tunnel vision and your direct focus has taken over. Yup. You don't notice anything but what you're looking at and what's your end game? 100% I call alligator brain. There, there is transition period where you have to cut your eyes and be ready for the next target. But it doesn't really affect that either. On some of the frame styles we have, there are some, we had their closed off and that's, you know, it's not good.  Speaker 5: But I always tell people, you know, we have the discussion when I go to these matches, you know, they say, well, what's the difference? I was so, all the lenses are the exact same. So the only differences yet and what we're looking for in a frame, they pick this up. I'm like going, that's not gonna work. Try this one. And I'll put them in. I push towards the gauge, the aviator, um, for the, for the 70s, you know, look, or the either the velocity because I know the rat allows a lot more. Yes, you can get it. I have fun with all these, you know, [inaudible] it doesn't bother me when people say, well, I look like a, you know, an old, you know, seventies, you know, you know, porn star, it doesn't bother me. You know, it's not my fault. They have a mustache. That's right.  Speaker 5: But oh wait, we have a lot of fun with it. But truth be told, it's once we get past the vanity, which is not easy to do. I want, I want people to focus on the lens. And when people try and when they go out and use them, they're like, you know, they come back going, well I didn't notice any of the sides. You know, I don't want to look at somebody and say, well you're not gonna notice that when you shoot, cause I don't shoot myself. I just know based on what the eyeball does, I don't want to get in people's, you know, I not tell them what they're gonna say or how they're going to see it go track theirself. And I guess getting back to the answer, your question specifically is just go demo it for yourself. Go try it. Um, does it work every time?  Speaker 5: No, but I get the feedback I need where I can take it to the next level. And, um, when, you know, like I said, what's going to happen come January is going to be, you know, a lot of people coming back around and saying it's time for me to try it again. Well that's really good. So let's transition just a little bit. I mean the one thing I've really noticed cause I, I did a little dive on like the overall like um, know like I would for any company that solicited my business, the marketing firm, right. This is just do a little dive in like what, where you are, where you're out there in the digital space and all that. And you know, I mean you have a decent presence on several sites but I mean the main thing that you've seem to be doing is you're out there every weekend at the match, putting the glasses in people's hands.  Speaker 5: Is that the last year primary strategy for the company? It's, it's one of those things where when I talk to Sherry about it, I said I've got to go educate people on lenses and technology. You can't do that. You can, but nobody's going to just take the time to go to the benefits page 160 and go and study that. I mean, it's there, everything's there. But to be able to actually talk to somebody about it and actually say, well, why is it doing this compared to this? And I get to talk about the technology to people and educate when I go to these matches. I'm not, you know, this sounds crazy. I've been in, I've been in sales my whole life. I'm not there to just sale. I'm there to educate and build relationships. Yup. That's what it's all about. I've been doing, you know, I have so many people don't have some people walk up that are in sales saying, why didn't you ask for the order?  Speaker 5: I'm like going, they're not ready to buy yet. They're going to let you know. I can get, don't get me wrong, I can sell it better. I've been doing it all my life, but I go out there and I start selling and promoting and putting somebody in a position where they're going to go home and go, what the hell did I just buy? Right? Then you have buyer's remorse that for sure in the social media world that we live in today, you know, that can kill your writings real quick. You don't want that. And that's one reason why when I do demo days, there truly is no pressure. My job is to educate, let people experience it. And even on the prescription side, I actually make your prescription before you buy it and you get to demo with your prescription as well. There's nobody ever heard of this before, and my wife goes, you've lost your mind. I've got doctors that don't pay their bill. I said, you don't these shooters, myself being a shooter when I got started. Yep. The, we're different and we're not going to be known as that individually. We're not gonna be known as that guy or that person that didn't pay for something. And especially Zuni world. It's a very, it's a, it's an amazingly huge shooting world, but it's a small world when it comes to somebody doing something or not supposed to do  Speaker 3: blows me away. I, it's one thing, I mean obviously you've gotten to know a lot of shooters now and you've, you've come to a conclusion that um, that many do. I mean, I take a, I'm like the only game in Minnesota that'll take a credit card for a matching and I don't ask people to sign, which is obviously a, a liability from a business standpoint. Never even crossed my mind. I'm like, we don't, we don't  Speaker 5: either. It's just one of those things that, you know, I always have people ask me all the time, you know, especially I get a lot of emails and everybody goes, what's the warrant? I'm like going, well, what it a warranty warranty? A warranty is nothing but a state of mind. Correct? Correct. Okay. I've sold extended warranties to all the places I worked. I've sold warranties, I've sold, I've sold people a state of mind. And the reason being that there's no actual warranty listed on the website is because warranties don't have to really be curated until somebody take it takes advantage of something. Now let me tell you what I mean by that. My philosophy, when somebody catches a frag or something happens, they contact me. I'm just gonna replace the Lens. Yep. No questions asked. Um, if somebody sends me a pair of glasses that have had, um, I can, I can we say lenses every day by our doctors that returned stuff for warranty.  Speaker 5: It's where the manufacturer, we are the warranty. We handle everything. Yep. So seeing lenses come every day, I can tell when a lens has been abused. You know what I mean by abused is leaving it just on the dash your car in extreme heat, um, cleaning it, um, and causing scratches because of clean. Um, we see everything and that people try to put my people a lot smarter than me in the lab here. You know, we know how to identify things. So when I talk to people about, you know, cleaning, you know it with, they come with cleaning instructions, like they come with a, they come a z clear, which is a cleaner, an atoll fogging agent, you know that, you know, we try to do anti fogging in house. I have all the tools to do it in the house, but there's another heating and cooling process that causes us to fail Ansi standards.  Speaker 5: So we had to find an outside source and I met up with um, Chris Ward who owns z clear and then that's why we package everything and hunter's HD go. Was he clear? There are specific things we put in place with every part of the process to be able to try to overcome the objections before they become objections. And I've had people that have brought me lenses before saying I've got this stuff in here. I can't get it off the lens. Am I going? Yeah, this is where pretty much you cleaned your lenses with your jersey, where your shirt, which is the worst thing to do because every bit of dust and dirt that's on that Jersey is going to get in there. And that's what scratches and this, it's when you're using that, I'll talk to them. I say, well take them back. I'm still replace them for weed because I'm here to, I mean I'm not here to sell another pair of lenses every time someone has a problem or I'm here to, you know, build customers for life.  Speaker 5: So I'll tell them, you know, well next time before you clean your lenses, take whatever liquid you have, be it, um, water, kool-aid and Gatorade poured on lenses cause there's a hydrophobic top coat that's not gonna allow anything to stick to them. Then clean them with the stuff that we provided. And then, you know, here's a new, you know, here's your, here's a set of lenses and replaced no charge. If this happens again, I'm gonna charge you $2,000. So it's just, you know, cause we've had, you know, it's all a part of training happens. Um, so, you know, we, I have fun and I'm not just dealing with, you know, if somebody has a problem, it's just not a customer. I said it's a person. I've met some person I've come to know and we have, we have a real life conversation just like we just had, you know, she's like, this is, this is how you, how you can overcome this in the future.  Speaker 5: Don't do that. It's so clear. Cause I see you out there and there's just, there's always a line of people to come talk to you and check them out and figure it out. And part of that is, I also have been, I don't know if you're still doing this, but at least the last season you were doing like a custom set of glasses for each, for each. Yes. I still, I still do that. Getting Ready to, you know, not when I'm sure this podcast is going to be produced, I mean published, but I'll be somewhere else this weekend with another custom pair everywhere I go. And um, that's, that's part of the fun because it does two things. One, it brings people to the tent to see what I've got. Cause I don't ever release any pictures of it until the day of. So people want to come see what I've put together and I gathered their email address for any kind of, you know, a future marketing's or any new product releases.  Speaker 5: What's a good way to, you know, the catcher that on the business side, I'm always have people all the time ask me, you know what, they email me all the time. I said, I don't have time that, you know, so you may get an email once or twice a year about product, you know, a new product update or something that's happening in the, in the, in the honey hundreds HD gold world. But, um, those are mine to keep and I'm not going to sell in anybody. So, um, I've had people ask me in the industry, you know, hey, can I get, you know, have some email addresses for this and this? And I'm like, no, I can't do that. Just like the, when I became part of the USPSA I talked to them and I said, do y'all have an emails out there that can market to, and it's actually in their bylaws, the answer's no, which is fine.  Speaker 5: So I still had to create a way to, you know, build my own list and um, my list I feel in some cases is better than their list because um, if they're not at the award ceremony, the only way I'm going to contact and let them know is through email cause I'm not collecting phone numbers or anything else. So they, they're, you know, they're inclined to give you their correct email address. So when I do have time to send out an email about a product release or what we're doing on youtube or whatever we're doing, um, which has happened, not all think, but once this year when our first time I contest the beginning of the year that lasted out the entire year, they actually emailed everybody. And when are, when I sent out that email, I had a pretty high, I mean, think my open rate was like 80 something percent. So that's pretty high based on talking to other people that are only getting 20 or 30% of their open rates. So kidding. When I email somebody, it's like, hey, you know, it's not very often and you know, we all get those emails two or three times a day from the same company and we, you know, they just become like, I just need to go away. They just see everything and you stuff  Speaker 3: that's a real markable number. Right? That's like, I mean, when we were marketing my mom, uh, my family's been residential real estate for a very, very long time and she was very early on in the email marketing and when we were sending out emails, you know, like 2005 to 10, somewhere in there, 70 to 90% open rate was like pretty awesome. Right? Uh, but now 70 90% is like three x. They did not it. Like I told you, when I go meet all these people, what am I doing? I'm, I'm making friends, I'm building relationships. How many times you open an email from your friend [inaudible] it's all about building that relationship. Well, the other thing too is, I mean, I don't know if you're aware of this, but like I, you know, if you went to American Express and you asked them for email addresses that were as fine tuned as humanly possible to get, um, to get like the right client, right?  Speaker 3: You'd pay like five to $10 per email address. Wow. And that's nothing compared to how refined they are when they opt in directly to your company. Right. So when I tell my clients, for example, is like on your website, wherever you're at, consider that every time someone gives you an email address, it's like they handed you a $5 bill and that's on the bottom of the value of it, right? And you start looking at these assets. I mean, we've got companies that have 10, 12,000 email addresses. I mean, that's a 50 or $60,000 minimum asset that people have built up over time. Um, you know, look, I mean you're not in a position where tomorrow going to come along  Speaker 5: and say you can't market anymore on Facebook because you're a, you know, you're in the protective. Oh really? Some of the tags I've done, I've had some stuff taken down before. Just people shooting competitively based on maybe a Hashtag. I don't know what it was, but they said it was something I promote. Um, firearms or something I liked going and actually challenged it. I'd actually challenged it one time when I tried to boost a post that was um, nothing but the um, it was a youtube page when I looked at that. When I do now, I go around and I, when I'm doing everything, when everybody is shooting, I'm just sitting in a tent. Yeah. I have chosen to go out there and get videos of people shooting and capture like you to use your words that I heard you use a year ago. They're Disney world moment.  Speaker 5: Yeah. And I took that from you, kind of go capture, I take videos of people and at the end of the end of that day, I go put on a youtube page for free. I'm not making money off of Youtube. They're there for them to download their self. Yup. It's a way, you know, to do, you know, promote that. But when I promoted at one time on the 160 go youtube page, they shut it down. And based on my, um, promoting the sh, promoting ammunition and stuff like that, it was weird. So I counteract it and came back and said, I'm promoting safety prescription. I'm promotion to safety, protective eyewear, just like the list that eight other companies that were same thing. And it came back. And finally, you know, I, I won, I won my, uh, you know, I've had my problems too. Robin had the same problems over the hour.  Speaker 5: But when I, you know, I'm very careful on what my hashtags are now. I can't put certain hashtags on there when I want to boost something. But it's one of those things that, um, I'm waiting for the day and I'm always out there looking for something that is, we're not being shadow banned. We're not being, you know, I can go type in, you know, looking for certain companies out there and I actually have to type in the company. Exactly right. Or it doesn't even pull up anymore. He used to get tight, hey, and there's angle lamination and all these other companies at Chi, everybody's right there now. It's like you type I and it's like, nope, nope. You have to type them specifically what they are to get them to pull up now. Yeah. Is that the answer? Is that the way they're doing it now? I guarantee you that's what they're wanting to happen. It could be. It could be either. So my philosophy on all this stuff is I don't get romantic about any of it. I just look. The fact is, is if I had a new company tomorrow that sold guns and I could get away with two months of Facebook advertising before they shut me down, I do it in a second. Um, it was earlier this year actually, that for whatever reason, because we run tests pretty much monthly. Yeah. On Google, on Facebook and places like that.  Speaker 3: Or I just, I've got a couple of hundred bucks this kind of rolling all the time to see if I can get ads through and Google all of a sudden just all my gun ads got through. So we just quintupled down on that for like, I don't know, three or four months. Then all of a sudden we started getting disapproved, disapproved, fine, whatever. I made like 300 grand in the process. I'm not for the companies that I, so I'm just, I just don't get romantic about it. Cause the truth is, is that's just what, where we're at. What we're dealing with and still today, Facebook is, is one of the great arbitragers for your dollar in advertising. And, um, the one thing I'll tell you though is you can get a f an advocate at Facebook. So you've, if you got a couple of ads that have been knocked down, you can apply for an advocate.  Speaker 3: And once you have an advocate, if you're a proven product, they go through and do all the research and you guys aren't selling anything. What you want to make sure is there's no, like there's no, you know, like right now, uh, if I go to your page, I'm at a hunter's ht gold and I go to your, uh, ba Ba ba Ba ba. I was at your testimonials where, yeah, you've got your gold team partners and I can link right to a Chi, for example. And he sells guns. So what you might want to do there is if you were to, it's like one degree of separation you've got to put in place, right? So you could create a page for your website, for each of your, where you give it, like, uh, so the click through goes for a Chi, goes to a page on your site that has what you think of, you know, stuff about a Chi.  Speaker 3: And then there they can click over and go to your, um, to their page instead of having just directly to the correct. And if you do that and the advocate clears all that, then you probably will be okay. And you can run ads all day long and you can still do what you want to do, which is promote your, you these companies, right? And so, um, and you get that in place. Uh, you know, there's some like kayaks holster companies, technically holsters or not banned on Facebook, but try to get an ad out on a, on a holster. It's like fricking impossible. So you got to go through the process and get an advocate and go through the whole thing. And the problem is most holster companies spend a lot of time promoting guns and they don't realize they're doing it. And all they have to do is just do a little clean up and get their house in order. Now look, I don't want it to be that way. Right? But who gives a damn what I want. No, my job is to make money for my and see. Right?  Speaker 3: So, so, you know, and I, I just don't get too romantic about it. And the thing is, if, you know, my competition out there is going to be upset about it all day long and just not pay for advertising on Facebook, they're welcome to do that. But the truth is, is I'm gonna win right at the bottom line. And so I just don't. So are they shadow banning? Probably. Are they making life more difficult for us? Probably, but I don't spend any time thinking about it. Right. You know, and do I want to give my money to a company like that? No. But the truth is, most of the companies I work for are well south of $10 million a year. So, even if you had a $10 million company, your ad budget being 1%, it's gonna be, you know, that's a hundred grand, right? Right. If your ad budgets 3% is $300,000, tell me where you can buy that kind of exposure for 300 grand.  Speaker 3: And I'll do it. It's certainly not the backpage at USPSA front sight magazine. That's correct. So that's where I started to, you know, I start to look and I'm like, well, in the, in the big cost benefit analysis of marketing, um, I just bet ponies and I'll bet whatever pony is gonna win the best of my ability. If I have an option between a winning pony and another winning pony that doesn't, you know, um, put us in third gear all the time. Um, then I'm going to, I'm going to pay for the one that's open throttle. Right? But, but at the same time they don't exist. Right. So it's interesting. Okay. So, look, we covered a lot of stuff and I got a couple of things I just got to ask you because one thing we do a lot on this show is, um, is we talk about how we get our business done and you are traveling like basically every weekend, nine months of the year from what I can tell. What's your, what's your like, what's your key, like what do you like, what are your go to things to like, you know, keep your life in order to keep your business in order. Any tips or tricks, you got hacks we like to call them. Um, it is to, um, one, stay real with yourself. Really good.  Speaker 5: And that's what I mean by that is not just with business but with, with home and everything else with life. Um, Sherry is, um, very, very supportive and everything I'm doing, I

You've created your podcast, blog, video or ebook - but if you don't promote it, will it get the results you're looking for? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Repurpose House Founder Shaina Weisinger talks about the power of repurposing marketing content into video, audio, and visual assets that can be used to promote it on social media. Her company, Repurpose House, is an end-to-end, outsourced solution for content repurposing, and her clients have been seeing some pretty impressive results when they share captioned video memes and audiograms, image quotes, and thumbnails formatted for social feeds, stories, and Youtube. Get $200 off setup for any Repurpose House plan with promo code "INBOUNDSUCCESS" Highlights from my conversation with Shaina include: Repurpose House is a flat rate service that takes existing content, and turns it into micro assets for social media. Shaina uses her service for her own podcast, The Content Coalition, and estimates that she can get 10 to 12 micro assets out of each individual podcast episode. One of Shaina's clients, Endless Events, has a video podcast and by just using one repurposed asset per episode - one video podcast or one little video clip and also an image quote - within 90 days of starting to just repurpose that one content piece, they got 138% more site sessions and 300% more contacts with zero ad dollars spent. The key with repurposed content assets is to spread out the postings across platforms and on different days of the week, and to vary the message with each post.  Shaina also recommends putting some paid ad dollars behind the repurposed assets. There are many types of content that can be repurposed, from podcasts, to blogs, Facebook Live videos, speaking engagements, ebooks and more. Shaina has seen the most success from promoting repurposed content on Facebook, IGTV, LinkedIn and YouTube. Resources from this episode: Visit the Repurpose House website Check out The Content Coalition podcast Connect with Shaina on LinkedIn Follow Shaina on Twitter Check out the Endless Events case study to learn how that company grew site sessions by 138% and contacts by 300% with zero dollars spent on ads using Repurpose House. Visit the Repurpose House Resource Center to see videos and read articles on how to get the most mileage out of your repurposed content. Get $200 off setup for any Repurpose House Plan with promo code INBOUNDSUCCESS. Listen to the podcast to learn how to get more mileage from your content by repurposing it and promoting it on social. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth, and today my guest is Shaina Weisinger, who's the Founder and CEO of Repurpose House. Hey Shaina, welcome to the podcast. Shaina Weisinger (Guest): Hey there. Thanks for having me. Shaina and Kathleen hamming it up while recording this episode together . Kathleen: Yes, I'm excited to have you here. It was fun meeting you a few weeks ago, and I am so excited to learn about Repurpose House. I got a little taste of it the other day and we're starting to test it out at IMPACT, and I think it's really cool. Why don't you start by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself, and about Repurpose House, and what it does and how you came to start the company? About Shaina and Repurpose House Shaina: Yes, absolutely. Repurpose House was an iteration of two or three different original ideas, which really all fun things are, right? My background is in video production for digital marketing. I went to school for film. I was doing a lot of freelance work six years ago and I was incorporating marketing into the video production piece. One thing that I started to do a lot for my clients was tell them, no to the videos that they wanted to produce because so many of them would come to me and be like, "I need a three minute video about how awesome my company is." And I'd be like, "Okay, but nobody cares." Although, we create video and content that gets them to care about who you are as a business. We get them to a place where they actually want to see that video, and then it will make that video way more effective. Because to just make a three minute piece about yourself and throw it on YouTube, and hope that it gets a million views, it's crazy. Kathleen: It's like you don't watch TV just for the commercials. Shaina: Right. Let's just talk about you. Anyway, I was like, how about we add some strategy in this? For me, it was more about creating content that made sense in the audience's journey to get to you as a business. I started to really promote value based content. And one thing that came out of that was creating a lot of video podcasts for clients. That to me was just a huge massive win because A, it's long form. You can get a ton out of it. It's all value-based generally speaking. I mean, if you did a 30 minute podcast about how awesome you are, I don't know how much value you're giving to your audience consistently, but usually it's educational or story-based or something for your audience to enjoy. Having been in the digital marketing space for so long, and knowing that the attention span of people is very, very short. To be able to have a piece of content that sits in somebody's ear or that they're watching for 10-15 minutes minimum was bonkers to me. Because, if you get ten second view on Facebook, that's great, right? But if you have somebody listening or watching your content for 15 to 20 minutes, and my mind was blown. For me video podcasting was a really, really great way to create a good long form content strategy that you can then re-purpose. And a part of what I was giving them were these micro assets. Putting them in a square format, the headlines, the captions, the whole deal, and taking smaller chunks out of their content so that they could use it for social media. Because generally speaking, a 20 minute video on Facebook isn't going to do a whole lot, but a one to two minute video will if it's formatted properly. I started to pitch that idea, the actual video podcasting idea to prominent podcasters, just audio. And the more that I spoke with them, they were like, "Hey listen, we don't care about the video piece, but if you just did those repurposed assets, we'll throw our money at you." And I was like, there's nobody who's doing this? I started to do some research and there were a lot of tools to do it yourself. There wasn't really anybody who was niching hard and just doing it for you. Actually, Repurpose House started as podcast memes almost a year ago to the day. We went to Podcast Movement, did the whole thing. And what was interesting with that model was that we were kind of doing the same thing mostly for podcasters and we had two different audiences. One was like, "This is amazing, we love what you do." It was a no brainer. And the other one was like, "Absolutely not." To me we were trying to figure out why we were beating our heads against the wall, in trying to pin down an audience. And we found out that the common denominator of the people who thought it was a no brainer, well, they were all marketers. They weren't podcasting for fun. They were using it as one arm of their content marketing strategy. I was like, "Well, I know this crowd. This crowd is my favorite." We rebranded to Repurpose House, decided we would repurpose any type of content. Audio for audiograms, video for video memes. We'll take blog posts, eBooks, we'll take a hundred words and turn them into little text motion snippets for social. And we just made it a way to help any content marketer take any type of content they've created, whether it's long form, short form and be able to optimize it the right way for social media. We kind of take the onus of knowing what the best practices are, how the trends are changing. The best shapes, formats, algorithms. How everything's working on social and making sure that the content that people then send through our service is ready to rock and roll at the best level that it can be. Well, Repurpose is a long story, still kind of long. Repurpose House is essentially a flat rate service that takes existing content, and we turn it into micro assets for social media. We do it on a ticket based platform. You'll say, "Hey listen, here's a podcast episode. Here's the 90 second clip that I want out of that. And we'll turn it into a square video meme with captions. We'll do it vertical and make sure that it fits IGTV, and will preview to the feed properly. We'll do it landscape for YouTube. We'll have the thumbnails for all of those. And then you also get the image quotes where you can take 25 words of something awesome somebody said and throw that on social media as well. We just try to make it really simple and easy for the users to just say, "Hey, here's my content. I need to make it awesome for social and drive traffic to the original content." And that's what we're doing. Kathleen: It's really interesting because I am absolutely squarely in your target audience, which must be why I'm so excited about this as a marketer who is also a podcaster. It's interesting to hear you tell this story, because I'm a member of several private groups for podcasters, and on Facebook. And a lot of the conversation revolves around how much people love podcasting, but how much they really dislike all of the production work and the promotion work that goes along with it. Most podcasters, like the art of the conversation, this part of it. Like you and I talking, they do not like editing and post production. They do not like creating all these graphics. For them it's a time suck. They'd rather be just having more conversations. And that certainly is me also. Even though I'm a marketer by training and by day, I would rather not spend all my time on that because to do it right, it does require some time. Anyway, I was selfishly really excited when I discovered Repurpose House, because my first thought was, yes I get to make that easier because I'd been doing it all myself. But then to hear you talk about kind of that evolution that you had, to other types of content it was interesting too. Because I think, I owned an agency for 11 years before I came to IMPACT, and now I run our marketing department and that is a perpetual challenge. You're producing content. In our case here at IMPACT, we're producing a really high volume of content. I mean it can be up to six new articles a day. And to try and build a strategy where you can promote that content effectively at scale is virtually impossible. We would have to hire one or more full time people to do it. Anyway, all a long way of saying, I can completely see the need that it's filling. And I'm sure people listening can as well. I'm curious to know you've built this engine to repurpose content into these bite sized, I would call them almost, snackable memes and audio clips, things like that. For your company itself, you really launched a year ago, correct? Shaina: Yes. How Shaina is Marketing and Growing Repurpose House Kathleen: Talk me through what you're doing to grow. I'm assuming you're as they say, eating your own dog food. Or as one of my guests once said, it's much better to say drink your own champagne because nobody wants to eat dog food. Shaina: Who was that guest? Kathleen: Whoever that was. I like that, I'm going to use that. Are you using the product and what else are you doing to grow the company? Shaina: Yes, we are. We're using the product. It's hard to do as I say, not as I do. Especially, when we're telling people all the best practices. Because we have clients that we've done all these awesome case studies for, and I consult on it. Doing it yourself again is a lot of work and takes a lot of man hours. And while we were trying to get operations really tight and all of those things, we realized, well, we should probably put our money where our mouth is on this kind of stuff. We initially started with case studies with clients, which was really, really helpful. But for us, we have our own show called The Content Coalition. I essentially took what I was doing for my clients in video production, I did it myself. What's funny is a bunch of those episodes were actually filmed before podcast memes existed, and Repurpose House existed. They were done at Traffic and Conversion Summit in 2017 or 18. We basically took those, they were still about content, they're mostly about podcasting as a form of marketing. But we took those, we have a bunch of new interviews with really incredible guests and we turned it into a video podcast, which then is audio video, you can see it everywhere. And we repurpose all of those episodes in to a bunch of different micro assets. We right now our process is, we do three to four, up to two minute clips of every episode that we film. We also know that once we've run out of that content, like we're wrapping our season with 30 episodes. I we're on 25 right now, so we're going to be wrapping season one. I looked at Sarah, my director of ops, I'm like, "We need to consistently be sending traffic to these episodes because we have the clique." I talked to one of the head marketers at Microsoft the other day, I'm like, "How are we not just consistently sending people to interviews like that?" We know we can get 10 to 12 amazing micro assets out of each one of those episodes. We know we can turn each of those episodes into blog posts, into LinkedIn articles. We can do more than what we just do for social, but we are taking those and turning them into the micro assets, to then start driving traffic to the existing full length piece of content. One thing we are going to be doing with them, which I had helped another client with a while back is, we're going to be taking those individual snippets and actually putting some ad budget behind them to the audience of the person who is on the podcast, to grow our audience as well. That's one way that we're going to start really trying to hit getting more people kind of into the ecosystem, and starting to nurture them and all of that. But we have a lot of cold outreach events were a huge for us. Traffic and Conversion to me this last year was really our coming out party, if you will. I rebranded in November and I foot the bill for a booth there. Just because I'm like, if this is the audience we think- Kathleen: These are my people. Shaina: I'm like, if this isn't the right audience and if this is going to work, people will be excited about it. Or we'll at least, get some feedback and know how this is going to work. And that was incredible. We've been doing a bunch of events since then and that's been super helpful growth. And start up is tough, because you're limited on human, people and resources and budgets. It's been a lot of just cold outreach, nurturing amazing relationships like with you guys. Just trying to build that way in addition to still repurposing content with a small audience that we're trying to grow too. Kathleen: Now, you make a really interesting point about continuing to drive traffic to content assets that you may have created before the current week or month, or what have you. Because when you think about podcasts especially, I always think of it kind of like Netflix. I literally in the past week was just binge catching up on the latest season of the Handmaid's Tale. That came out months ago. But I can go in now and for me it's fresh and I'll just tear through all whatever, eight or nine episodes of the latest season. And I think it's the same thing with the podcast. Somebody could discover any one of your episodes at any time, and all of a sudden they can become a big fan and tear through the entire series. How Shaina Uses Repurposed Content Assets In Her Marketing Strategy Kathleen: You've been doing this repurposing. Now, if I understand you correctly, I want to make sure I get it. You take those initial, I think you said 12 assets that you create and you promote them right away, I assume. Then do you also have some sort of schedule you follow while you're promoting them out into the future? Shaina: Yes. We use a goal pulse to schedule all of our social media posting. What we'll do is, initially when the episode launches, we will do kind of a run through that week of video memes, audio... all be video memes and the image quotes. It'll be like the small quote that they said, a start usually super helpful and we'll post those immediately when the episode launches. We usually do one little asset of me just talking to camera right after I interviewed it, to talking about the three most impactful moments of that episode. And I'll go out the day before as a teaser, and then we just stagger and drop those little micro assets throughout the week. What Is The Impact That Repurposing Content Can Have On Traffic and Leads? Shaina: We actually have one client who does this incredibly well. I actually talk about it in my deck every time I speak, because they have a video podcast, kind of like what we do. They talk to industry experts in the event planning field. And they just used one repurpose asset per episode, one video podcast or one little video clip and also an image quote. And in 90 days of starting to just repurpose that one content piece, they got 138% more site sessions, hits to their website, 300% more contacts of people who opted into continuously get their information. They spent zero dollars. Kathleen: Wow. Shaina: And this was all just, all organic social media posting that was super strategic. They made sure they were staggering that same post, they made sure they were posting across all of the different platforms. They were utilizing groups really well. Engaging in conversations and stuff. And to me they use HubSpot, so we were literally able to track absolutely everything. But I was excited to see their results and when they actually came to the table with the physical graphs that I was looking at, I was floored. Because I was like, "You spent zero dollars, this all came from this one campaign in 90 days and you literally repurposed at one time into two different assets and it just went crazy." It's been really cool to see they're kind of a machine. They know how to do it really well. It's been fun to see how they did it, and now I get to tell other people how they did it as well. And we're going to basically follow the same protocol ourselves because if they're able to make it happen on zero dollars, I'm down to do that too. How To Promote Repurposed Content Kathleen: Yes. Can we dig into that a little deeper? How did they do it? Are there any specifics around how they scheduled, or how they formatted their posts or the channels they used? Shaina: Yeah, absolutely. There's tons of it. First of all, there's a downloadable PDF on our site, where we literally give away the form on how they did it. Kathleen: I'll put that link in the show notes. Click here to learn how Endless Events used repurposed content assets to increase site sessions by 138% and contacts by 300%, with zero dollars spent on ads. Shaina: Yes, for sure. It's a full download. On the site. It kind of just breaks it down like a little bit how they did it. But the download will actually go through every platform like what they did specifically. But the overall general way they did it was, they made sure to stagger their posts across all the different platforms on different days. They didn't do a blast all in one day on all of the different channels because, what if one of your amazing target audience members is just out of commission on a Wednesday, and that's the day you put all of your stuff on all of the channels. That doesn't make sense. They made sure that Wednesday was Facebook feeds, Thursday was Instagram feeds. Friday was IGTV. And then they kept going with stories and all of those. They also said that they changed the copy for all of the different platforms as well. And not just to fit the audience but also just to trigger other thoughts, because they said maybe it could be a copy thing. That if the person who is on LinkedIn saw it there and didn't watch it, it may have been because of the copy. If they saw it on Facebook and the copy was different, that may have triggered them a little bit differently and they were more enticed to watch that small piece of content. Kathleen: Now, you mean the copy, not the copy on the actual meme, but the copy associated with like the caption or what have you? Shaina: Correct. Yes, the copy on like the actual platform. Like, "Oh my gosh, this episode is super cool." Then it's the actual piece of content. They would change that copy on every single platform, and also the different places within the platform that they would post it. Another thing they were saying is the way that they posted pictures was unique as well. Instead of just throwing the image quote, because they'll do a quote and then an image of the guest. They make sure always to tag the guests. I feel that's obvious. Cross promotions are really big deal. Then, they also made sure to post it in different ways. They would do just the individual image, on a Tuesday on Facebook or whatever. I mean don't quote me on the dates, you know what I'm saying? Kathleen: Yes. Shaina: They'll just post the one individual image and then they get three images out of each episode because they usually have multiple guests. They'll do one image, they'll do one image and then, they'll also post them as an album and highlight the album. And then they'll post them in the groups and then they'll have a different copy. What we do is eight different assets for each repurpose like these. And they just took them and just lost their minds with them and posted them everywhere. I'll bet they got like 30 to 35 posts out of just the one little clip every single week. Kathleen: That's amazing. Shaina: Yes. Kathleen: It was crazy. They do all this, call it in week one if you will. And then do they have a schedule for if this is a really good asset, I'm going to repost it every X weeks to the same channel. Are they doing that as well? Shaina: For as far as I know, no. They are a content powerhouse. They are constantly creating the most incredible long form content. I don't know that he's doing a lot of pushing back to prior episodes, which to me is kind of crazy. Because if you had one to five episodes, that just crushed consistently, why not continuously send people to that piece of content? And it's funny because I'll hear it from other clients or other like marketers and, well everybody already saw that. Everybody already saw that post? Kathleen: Everybody did not already see that. Shaina: Maybe your audience at that moment, 50% of them, if that saw that. But you can always send people to evergreen content or content that's just super interesting. I don't know that they're doing a lot of that. This was all just based on new episodes, weekly repurposing those episodes specifically for social media. Combining Content Repurposing With Paid Ads Kathleen: That is so interesting. I'm intrigued by what you're talking about with doing paid ads, targeting the audiences of the people that are your guests on your show. You have not started that yet, correct? Shaina: I haven't. I've helped other businesses do it. And it's pretty cool, because generally speaking, we're chatting here and if the roles were reversed and it was my show, your audience is my audience. And I would assume it's vice versa. Right? If I were to go ahead and if you have a big following yourself, and I'm going to put some ad spin behind getting in front of your audience, I'm awesome by association. They already think you're awesome, right? Why am I not going to throw some ad spend into getting some exposure with somebody who they're already excited about? That kind of just picks interest of, well, who else do they have on their show, if they're already talking to this person that I follow. Kathleen: Yes, that's a great idea. You've been testing out, or not even testing. You've been regularly using your product for yourself. Can you talk through any other results that you've gotten in terms of growth from the repurposing or from some of the other things you're doing? Shaina: Yes. The repurposing for us is tough because we just started to get on the bandwagon of really being consistent. We just hired a Social Media Manager. That's a thing that we're super excited about. I don't have a lot to promote on how we have seen benefit because we've been trying to get our clients to see benefits and make sure that our process is trial tried. Yes, exactly. For me this whole business has been about user experience. I want it to be super clean and easy when you come in and I want it to be, I don't want to add more stress to your content marketing. The whole point of doing this for you is to make you just feel you've crossed something off of your list and don't have to worry about it. One of the big things for us has been focusing on making sure the user experience has been great. Social media has kind of taken a backseat because... startup mode. But that's something that the next quarter we're going to be really cranking out. I'm happy to follow up and let you know how we see results on that. But- What Types of Content Assets Can Be Repurposed? Kathleen: Yes, I would love to hear about that. Let's talk a little bit about non podcast promotion because certainly not everyone who's listening has a podcast, but most of my listeners, if not all of them are doing some form of content marketing. They definitely have this pain point of, "I've invested all this time and energy into this blog or this premium piece of content, now what?" I would love to hear a little bit more about how some of your clients are using Repurpose House to promote those assets. What that looks like, how do you turn a blog into different visual assets, et cetera? Shaina: Blogs are one of my favorites. And it's funny because not a lot of people know how to make those social media savvy. People will put a link to their blog post and be like, "Oh my gosh, this is one great snippet out of it." And then they think that that's it. They just have to keep posting the link. Well, we all know links on Facebook don't do well because Facebook wants you to stay in Facebook. It's like how do you now make a piece of content that is utilizing all that energy and time spent on a really great blog post. And we're doing it in the form of text motion videos because video gets way more engagement than any other type of content online. The stats are crazy about it. It's like 1200% more engagement on video than text and images combined. In order to take a piece of text and turn it into video, we just do text motion videos. We'll keep it in the same format. We'll still keep it square with the big headline and any call to action on that piece of content. Then in the middle you'll see up to a hundred words of that blog post that will populate kind of those goal cast videos. Or you've seen those online where it's, "The top three places to visit in Hawaii," or whatever. We make them look real, trendy and fun. You can put like stock imagery or stock video behind it, have really cool texts coming in and out. They're all branded to your brand. What you can do with that is take up to a hundred words, which usually equals out to about 90 seconds, and which is about the sweet spot for social. And you can put a really great impactful snippet of your blog post in there. And then your call to action can be to read the rest of the blog posts. Go here. And we'll tell our clients to create a short link. A Bitly link or something that's easy to remember, because we'll actually put it on the video file to avoid Facebook being angry about you putting a link in the copy. But you can do as many of those as you have, a 100 word snippets in your blog posts that can stand alone, which should be a lot if you're creating good content. You're able to get a lot of views on content that is on your website that doesn't traditionally work well on social media. And then if people who really resonate with it want to see more, then they know where to go every single time. Kathleen: Now, have you also seen any results from, you've got the Bitly in the actual asset. One of the things I've heard people say is you should then also put the link in the first comment. For the same reason, like don't put it in the post itself, put it in the comment. Have you tested that out at all? Shaina: Yes, we always. That's what we do. That's what we tell our clients to do. You got to make it easy for the user to click through. We'll just put the short link regardless. Just in case somebody is scrolling and they don't take that much initiative. But then to think that they're going to go through and actually type in a Bitly link, who knows? Right? Kathleen: Never know. Shaina: I know. Well, the thing is... and also the social media powers that be get smarter and smarter every day. I'm kind of like, at some point they're going to eliminate that whole link on comments or deal. We're just kind of trying to stay out of it. Kathleen: Right. Shaina: I definitely say in comments we use for like Instagram, we use Linktree. I tell clients about that constantly. If you can add as many links in Linktree as you want depending on what's that you have. What that means is, for those you don't know what Linktree is. In Instagram, you get one link in your bio and that's it. You better make it a good one. What Linktree does is you click it and it opens up and it gives you multiple links that you can have people click on. We'll say like, for the latest episode of the Content Coalition, click this link. Or for the website, click here. For the downloadable PDF on this, click here. You can give all of these options to send people somewhere instead of having to put those links in copy, which doesn't even work in Instagram anyway. Kathleen: Yes, those link in bio tools are really cool. I know just as an Instagram user, I really enjoy them, especially for media companies. A great example I always cite of a company that does link in bio really well is The Today Show. They do a really good job of posting pictures on their feed with little teasers, and they tell you just enough that you I need to know, what this is about. Then, it's always click the linking bio and then they have a really good robust linking bio platform that you can then dive deeper into all the stories. That that's something I just don't think a lot of brand marketers are doing well at this point. Shaina: What's so tough is there's just so many different ways to market that it's like a fire hose in the face. You've got to figure out what types of pieces to drink up and really do well. It's hard to say, do all of it great because it's a lot to take in. Then you've got LinkedIn on top of it now, you know. And there's just so many different platforms that for me, what I try to tell people who are really, they want to do all of it. Pick one or two that you can do really great and just do it really, really well. And then once you get the hang of that, then start bringing in more because to try to knock down all those dominoes at once that are lined up next to each other that doesn't, it's too much work. You have to come up with clean processes and systems that work well in one or two different platforms and then move on from there. Kathleen: Right. Shaina: And I think it's about knowing your audience. Is your audience more likely to be on Instagram or on LinkedIn or on Facebook? Where are you're going to invest your time is really where your audience is. Kathleen: Right. That's great. Are there any other types of content? We talked about podcasts and blogs. Any other types of content that people produce that they could repurpose in the way you're describing? Shaina: Yes, there's so many. It's crazy. Any time you get in front of a camera and talk or have some sort of presentation, that can all be repurposed. We do a lot with speaking engagements. If you go and speak at a bunch of different conferences, those are great because usually they're 38 minutes to 45 minutes. There's so much that we can take out of those. And what's crazy and multiple of those, then you've got tons of different pieces of content. Also seeing an influencer speak on stage also gives authority as well. That is a really, really great thing to repurpose. Webinars are really helpful, if you're giving information, those do well. We have one guy who's got the most incredible process in repurposing his Facebook lives. He does his Facebook Live every day. Thus he downloads it from Facebook, he uploads it to Google Drive. It triggers like 94,000 zaps and it goes to even all these different ways, and then one of those zaps is sending it into Repurpose House. And then what we don't have is zap. But one of those zaps is the person gets notified to send it to him. Kathleen: I know you guys need a zap. That would be an amazing... Shaina: Wouldn't that be amazing? But he does Facebook Lives, and so now I've started to do my Facebook Lives landscape, so that I can then put them into the video memes. We could do the vertical and then pop them into a different template. But those have been doing really well. Really anything video wise. We do eBooks, actual books. Honestly, it's any kind of content you can really fathom that you create for any platform. We can 99% of the time, turn that into a repurposed asset and make it work for social media. How Much Does Repurpose House Cost? Kathleen: That's great. If you're listening and you're creating content, so many options available here. Now, I don't mean to make this a commercial for Repurpose House, but it is such a cool tool and I'm sure people are wondering how much does it cost? Can you share anything around that? Shaina: Yes, sure. We have two plans with add-ons that you can add to either. The basic plan is basically one ticket a week. This works great for podcasters. We have a lot of podcasters in this. You would basically submit one ticket, one ticket is going to be one asset repurposed one way. You'll say, "Hey, here's my podcast episode between two minutes and 30 seconds and four minutes and 30 seconds. That's my clip. Here's what I want my headline to be. Here's my image quote, go. And then if you submit by 5:00 PM Monday by Friday you get all of those assets drip to you in its completion." It's a square video meme, landscape video meme, vertical. You get all the images and all the different sizes and thumbnails. That's $279 a month. If you want to do more than just the one a week. This is honest. This is where everybody sits is in the influencer package. It's $479 a month, but you get one of those full tickets per business day. You submit by 5:00 PM, and you get it all back by 8:00 AM the next day. I don't suggest being in the platform everyday because I don't even want to be there. We tell people to front load. Like a Monday, go through, submit all five of your tickets for the week and then just know that they're going to drip out to you one every business day and you've got content for days that you can then go ahead and post and put into your schedule or and make sure that you're good to go and it's clean. And then we have add-ons, we can actually do the tickets for you. We have a content curator who has a meeting with your team. We talk about the types of content you want consistently repurpose the brand, voice your audience and then we'll go through the content and submit tickets on your behalf. You can decide, if you want two of those a week, then the remaining three you have a week your team can handle. If you have consistent content like your blog that goes out every week or your podcast that goes out every week. Those are really great ones for us to go through and find the content pieces. And then you can have the remaining tickets for your team to do one offs that are about things that are happening that are current, just to have a little freedom to post yourself. And then lastly, we have a two minute limit on all of the different content pieces that you can submit. We have what's called super tickets now because with IGTV, I have some friends who are power users. And they're like IGTV's algorithm is crazy and awesome. And if we aren't posting their first, like the feeds aren't getting anything anymore. We now do an up to a 10 minute max on tickets, so you can purchase those if you know you have longer form content that you want to post IGTV and yes, that's just an add on also. Kathleen: I love that you have the option to have somebody carry that for you because I think that's the next pain point honestly. Is if somebody wants to offload it, odds are they want to offload it all. That's great that that's an option. Shaina: Yes. That's really great for the... generally speaking, if it's a new piece of content, somebody who's been in it recently, it's easy for them to say, "Okay, here's a great little section." But if you're repurposing evergreen content, that's amazing. From way back then, I have to go back through and make that a part of your process. It's a lot. For you to be able to say, "Hey, here's the blog from the last six months, just go." It's so much easier to just delegate that out and let somebody else handle it. What Channels Work Best For Repurposing Content? Kathleen: Now, do you just anecdotally, do you see any particular channels or formats that are really killing it? Or any that are emerging? Shaina: LinkedIn is massive. I mean just the reach that you're able to get. I don't think it's going to last forever, but I think that it's like Facebook before it turned into completely pay to play. It's really exciting to be able to link the way that you can there. IGTV is really, really good right now. I mean at any of our clients that switched to posting to IGTV, and then previewing to the feed are getting way more results. I've seen that myself personally with my own posts. Instagram is definitely favoring IGTV posts that then preview. Those are the two ones that I say always post. I think that people forget about YouTube also. Like making sure that you're posting your repurposed assets to YouTube and actually we'll give you the caption file, so that it all becomes searchable for SEO. Making sure that you're utilizing YouTube in addition to the social media platforms is huge. Because when people go to search for a how to or education, they're not going into Facebook and searching how to, change a tire. They're going into Google or YouTube to do it, and YouTube is the second most used search engine. It's also owned by Google. Anytime somebody searches for anything, they're going to find it. And if you have video content, put it on YouTube too so that it's able to be found there as well. How to Get In Touch With Shaina or Repurpose House Kathleen: Now, if somebody wants to learn more about Repurpose House or how to do this right. Assuming they're going to get either get a bunch of repurposed assets from you or they might DIY at themselves. What's the best way for them to learn how to do it right on Instagram? How to do it right on LinkedIn? Are there any really good sources of information for best practices on that? Shaina: Yes. We try to keep our resource center updated. We have a lot of how tools, I'm really big on just showing you how to do it. Because we can talk ambiguously all day long but I have videos on our resource center that literally walk you through, and granted it all changes consistently. We try to keep it up to date as quickly as possible. So here's always that. I also am doing a webinar where we do a full fledge course, where you can literally learn how to do all of the posting properly. Actually repurposing your own content. How I learned how to do it myself when I was doing it, with my team for other clients outside of using our service. There's a lot of really cool... I just finished our course and it's robust and it literally shows you A to Z how to. The type of content to curate, how to curate it efficiently and not waste your time going through 94 different pieces of content, ineffectively. How to repurpose it and then how to also post it and get it. Basically talks about that case study that I spoke about too and walks through each of those pieces individually. That is actually launching next week. I have lot things now, but I will have a link there by that time. Kathleen: By the time this goes live it'll be up. Definitely, we'll be including that link in the show notes. Shaina: Awesome. Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: That's so interesting. All right, before we wrap up, I want to ask you a couple of questions that I always ask all my guests. The first is when it comes to inbound marketing, you work with a lot of companies that are putting out content, doing online lead gen. When it comes to inbound marketing, is there a particular person or a company that you think is really killing it right now? Shaina: It's Endless Events. They're ones that we did the case study with. They are the kings of content. And Will, is the founder, I have known him for six years. And he was with HubSpot in making sure that he could track everything and every single content piece that he creates. This video podcast I was telling you about that they got all these results from, you also have to opt in to even view the content. He literally, initially it was your email address and your name, and then he was like, let's just test it and see how much information we can get. The more fields he put for you to fill out, the higher the opt-ins he got. Kathleen: Kind of intuitive? Shaina: Right. He tests and he's very meticulous about making sure he knows what works and the sheer amount of content that they put out consistently is incredible to me. They're definitely somebody to follow, and see what their content strategy looks like. It's pretty good. Kathleen: That's great. I cannot wait to check them out. They sound like they're really doing some cool stuff. Now the other question is, and you hit on this already. Being a digital marketer these days is like drinking from a fire hose, and trying to stay up to date with everything that's changing in the world of digital marketing is really, really hard. How do you personally educate yourself and stay up to date on everything? Shaina: Oh man. I'm always scrolling through search terms that I'm like, "Okay, I need to get to down this." And then it literally, like I said, it turns into like a Google search and then a top, any of the top posts by any of the people that I really respect. Neil Patel's a great resource. Any of like the HubSpot blogs or just things that... it's literally a client will generally bring it to our attention because they'll have a great question. We have three power clients who are always like, "Hey, are you doing this or have you seen this?" I'll get text messages from Matt. I'm like, "Okay, oh, I'm an expert now that I've googled it." Well, it's funny because I get a lot of questions that come up from clients and then I'm like we should know this. If it's something that's popping up that we don't know about, we have to stay on top of it. Then it turns into going into the people who are doing it really well and finding out why they're doing it and how it's working. A lot of it is just random searching. I like to follow people who are doing it well online. Like Gary V, I follow him everywhere. I like to see what he's doing because he's kind of the voice of content on social. Anything he's doing, when I see tweaks or changes to any of his content, I'm curious and I'm seeing what it is that they're doing and why. Just following the right people who are always ahead has been really helpful for us. Kathleen: Neil Patel and Garry V... anybody else that really stands out for you? Shaina: Those are the two big ones. I mean, obviously we keep up with DigitalMarketer and all of their clients, which is super cool. Max actually from them, he's always the one. He's like, "Did you see this?" I'm like, "Yes I did. I'm so excited." Those are really the big ones. Sarah does a ton the research on this stuff too. I don't know who her main hitters are. I know they're a little different than mine, but those are the big ones. Learn More About Repurpose House Kathleen: Those are some great names. I'll definitely check those out. All right, well if somebody wants to learn more about Repurpose House, or get in touch with you, what is the best way for them to do that? Shaina: Sure. The website is repurposehouse.com. It kind of goes through exactly how we do what we do, and how it works as a service. Obviously, we're on social media. It's going to be repurposehousesco on all of the different platforms. And I'm Shaina Wesinger, on all the platforms. I'm mostly engaged on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is where I'm really trying to personally hit. That's where you'll see a lot of my stuff and feel free to link with me there. You Know What To Do Next... Kathleen: Great. Well I'll include all of those links in the show notes, so check that out if you want to connect with Shaina, or find out more about Repurpose House. Or check out the new course or any of those case studies. And if you're listening and you liked what you heard, of course, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts or the platform of your choice. And if you know somebody else who is doing kick-ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks so much Shaina. Shaina: Awesome. Thank you.

Everyone always tells me, "I wish I could go to San Diego Comicon.". Well I'll break it down and tell you all the facts you should know so you can decide for yourself. Plus I talk about the awesome #orvilleexperience and my adventures down at SDCC.Then we hit all the other insane news like suing over hashbrowns, pepper spraying the school nurse, how young is too young to be made fun of and Justin Bieber can't stop fighting and more.Please Follow and subscribe to our new RSS is https://www.spreaker.com/show/the-burr-martin-experience-podcastVisit my new and improved website! http://burrmartin.wixsite.com/burr Have me send a message to someone with CAMEO https://www.cameo.com/therealburrmartin Visit the new SelfieDad/Podcast Merchandise site at https://cafepress.com/therealselfiedad YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/heroicpose For more Burr Martin, go to Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/burrmartinexperience/ Get this podcast commercial free at https://www.patreon.com/pantspendingQuestion or comment? Email at bmexpodcast@gmail.comIn Time by Robbie RobThe Burr Martin Experience podcast, brought to you by Pants Pending Studios, is hosted by the Internet's "Selfie Dad", who was made famous overnight by recreating his daughters selfies on Instagram. Joined by his wife/co-host of more than 28 years, Burr brings his unique brand of humor, nerd experience and C List Internet celebrity status to talk about the strange, odd and downright funny news stories from around the World, plus a few other surprises thrown in.A product of Pants Pending Studios. This is a copyrighted internet broadcast. Any reproduction or rebroadcast without express permission of its creators is strictly prohibited.

Beneath anxiety, depression, guilt, and shame, are core emotions that are hardwired into our circuitry. When you’re able to tap into the core emotions - and move through them - you’ll feel a new sense of freedom and empowerment - with the ability to handle anything that life sends your way. Our guest today is Hilary Jacobs Hendel. She’s a psychotherapist and the author of the new book, "It's Not Always Depression: Working the Change Triangle to Listen to the Body, Discover Core Emotions, and Connect to Your Authentic Self,” which will definitely be a game changer for you. Today she has some practical tips for you on how to identify and work through these core emotions, so that you don't get stuck in the secondary emotions that can get in your way. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Want to experience a Luxury Suite or VIP Box at an amazing concert or sporting event? Check out Suitehop.com/DATENIGHT to score sweet deals on a special night for you and your partner. Find a quality therapist, online, to support you and work on the places where you’re stuck. For 10% off your first month, visit Betterhelp.com/ALIVE to fill out the quick questionnaire and get paired with a therapist who’s right for you. Resources: Visit Hilary Jacobs Hendel’s website to learn more about her work. Pick up your copy of Hilary Jacobs Hendel’s book, It's Not Always Depression: Working The Change Triangle To Listen To The Body Discover Core Emotions And Connect To Your Authentic Self. FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE) Visit www.neilsattin.com/triangle to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Hilary Jacobs Hendel. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host Neil Sattin. It's been my mission of course to give you the best tools that I can find to help you have an amazing thriving relationship. And some of those tools are relational and how you interact with other people, and some of those tools are all about the inner work and how we can come to understand ourselves better and experience life more fully, shine more brightly and to get past the obstacles that stand in our way. And today, I hope to synthesize both of those things for you. Though, we're gonna start with the inner work as we unearth how to get to our core emotional experience and just why that is so important. And along the way you're gonna learn how to identify when you're in a core emotional experience and when you are not and learn exactly how to handle that situation. We are diving more deeply also into the work known as AEDP: accelerated experiential dynamic psychotherapy. Which is a mouthful but if you listened to Episode 176 with Diana Fosha, or episode 189 with David Mars then you're getting a sense for how this way of working with people can be so profound in its ability to create positive change. Neil Sattin: Today's guest has taken the model even further in showing us how we can apply it for ourselves. So, it's great when you're doing it in, in therapy it's great when you're doing it in couples therapy. And this is going to show you how to do it on your own so that you can experience this kind of change in your daily life, using what's known as "the change triangle.". Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Our guest today is Hilary Jacobs Handel and her recent book: "It's Not Always Depression: Working The Change Triangle To Listen To The Body Discover Core Emotions And Connect To Your Authentic Self," is, I think, a game changer for you in terms of deepening your experience and being able to bring that fully into your relationship with your spouse, your partner, and your relationships with others in general. As usual we will have a detailed transcript of today's episode. You can get that if you visit Neil-Sattin-dot-com-slash-triangle, because we're talking about the change triangle, or as always you can text the word passion to the number 3-3-4-4-4 and follow the instructions. So let us dive in to the change triangle and discover how to get even more in touch with who we are at our core and how to bring that into the world. Hilary Jacobs Hendall, thank you so much for being here with us today on Relationship Alive. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Thank you Neil. I am delighted to be here talking about my favorite subjects, of emotions and relationships. Neil Sattin: Perfect. Well we're on the same page then, definitely. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes we are. Neil Sattin: And I do want to mention before we get too deep in, that if you are a visual person and need a visual representation of the triangle that we're talking about then that's also available both on Hilary's Web site, which will announce in a little bit, and also at Neil-Sattin-dot-com-slash-triangle, where we have the transcripts. You'll be able to to see it in front of you if that's required. But we'll do our best to to make it, make it real for you as we're talking about it. Neil Sattin: So Hilary, why, why is it so important to get in touch with our core emotions and and how do we distinguish core emotions from just that emotional wash that can come, come at us or come over us throughout our day? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Well, it's, there's many reasons why it's important to get, not only get it, well understand the different types of emotions and to get in touch with emotions and to be able to discern what you're what you're feeling and what you're experiencing. Because most of us live up in our heads. And thoughts are fantastic and we need them. And I love my thoughts but it's half the picture of knowing who you are and what you need and what's good for you and what's bad for you. And core emotions are these biologically wired survival programs that really tell us, at the core, so much about what we who we are and what we need that if we're not listening to them and our society really teaches us to avoid them and block them, which I think is responsible for the epidemic we're seeing in depression and anxiety and so many mental health issues, that, and we don't learn anything about emotions, that, that without knowing about emotions and understanding how they work, we're really at a huge disadvantage to thrive in life. Neil Sattin: Right, when you're able to identify the emotional experience that you're having, it gives you clues as to how you need to best respond to the world in the moment with whatever is going on in your life. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly and I think what's become more and more important for me, just to say from the beginning to the people listening out there, is that this is not about wearing emotions on our sleeve. This is not about looking for an excuse to act out or behave badly, to rage or to cry, experiencing emotions is a wholly internal process it has nothing to do with what we actually then show to others, or, or enact. It may, but I'm, we're always trying to think about what is constructive for us, constructive for the person we are with. It's not about an excuse to behave badly and I think we live in an emotion phobic culture partly because people don't understand that, they think "Oh my gosh, you know, if we're all into our emotions it's just gonna be you know not good. It's just, it's..." I'm only thinking of curse words now that would come out and explain like a shit show, but I'm just you know that type of a thing. And this is a very thoughtful process that I am talking about that only helps us. There, there is no downside to getting in touch with emotions the way that I am thinking about it and the way that I try to educate others. Neil Sattin: Right, what you just said is such an important distinction that we're talking about a constructive way to meet your emotions and to metabolize them into something that's beneficial not just for you but for the other people in your orbit or for life in, in general. And you know we had Harriet Lerner on the show to talk about her seminal work, "The Dance of Anger," and turning anger into, into a constructive emotional phenomenon. And I love how in your book it's not always depression you talk about each of these core emotions and we're talking about emotions like sadness and fear and anger and disgust, and we're also talking about emotions like joy or excitement or sexual excitement. Lust I think is the way that Jaak Panskepp talks about it. And we're talking about all of those core programs that you just mentioned and looking at how they lead to our common good. The common benefit and also ways to know when, when something's coming at us that really isn't healthy and and how to respond effectively to that. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly right. In particular with using anger to set limits and boundaries and to assert ourselves without being aggressive. Neil Sattin: Right. Right which you're able to do when you've figured out "Wow I'm, I'm really angry. And here's why I'm angry right now." And so it becomes less about telling someone that you're angry and more about setting an effective limit with them. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes, and I would add an additional piece: it's, it's also working with that anger internally to to discharge some of that energy that causes us to, to act too quickly, and act, and say mean things or do hurtful things, so that there's techniques to work with the energy that, that most emotions have and that grip us into impulses right and these impulses have to be thought through very, very up, down and sideways, before we decide to say something or do something that we really want to be thoughtful about ourselves and the action that wants to come out. Neil Sattin: Right. Yeah. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: It's hard work too,  this is a lifelong process. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So important to name that and, and for you, listening, we're going, we're gonna get to some of these techniques of how to really integrate and and process your emotional experience in the way that Hilary was just naming. And I want to say too that well, as you know I read a lot of books for this show and I love the ones that just right out of the gate, I'm like, "This book is gonna make a difference in my life." And I definitely felt that reading your book it's so practical and in some ways the title is misleading because I think people see it and they think "Oh this is a book about depression. I'm not sure that impacts me." And so I want to encourage everyone listening that this is really a book about what we're talking about: how do you encounter your own emotional experience and chew it up in a way that's beneficial for you and then bring that into how you how you interact with the world around you. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah exactly. And I think you're right about the title. I guess if the title was exactly what it should be, it would say "This is a basic emotion education that you should have received in high school," and hopefully one day people will. But it's something that every, everybody knows that the title came from the article that I wrote for The New York Times back in 2015 and because the article went viral and so many people responded to it, that Random House said let's just name the book that. And you know it's not always depression what is it? It's really life, and how surviving our childhoods and all the adversity that life entails affects us emotionally and what happens when you block those emotions and what happens when you embrace those emotions and learn to work with them. And it's it's it's a fork in the road. And it matters. Neil Sattin: Yes. Yeah. So let's start with talking about "the change triangle," because I think identifying the three different corners of the triangle will be really helpful for everyone in understanding what we're talking about because why is it a triangle, why isn't it just like well you've got to have your core emotional experience, and there, there's more to it. And this was where your book was so eye opening for me in many ways, was getting to see oh these kinds of things that I experience< they're happening because I'm, I, I'm trying to I'm trying to protect myself from a core emotional experience as an example. So, I think as we as we dive in this is going to make a lot more sense for everyone listening. So, where's a good place to start, Hilary? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: I think just a quickly, describe it and and what I, I'll try to bring it to life a little bit. Neil Sattin: Great. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: So for everybody listening you want to imagine an upside down triangle superimposed on your body. The point of the triangle is in your core, you know, somewhere between your stomach and, and your, under your ribs. And that's because, and that's, at the bottom of the triangle is where core emotions are and they're in the body and that's why I'm asking you to imagine them in your core. And they're, the core emotions to say them again are: fear, anger, sadness, disgust, joy, excitement, and sexual excitement. And each of those have their own unique programs and they're very simple in a way, you know, when something, when somebody hurts us... Well let's just take anger because it's something that we all struggle with in our culture. And there's so many myths about anger, but anger is there basically to protect us. Anger and fear. And when when somebody attacks us. And I always think about how these were designed to be sort of, hundreds of thousands of years ago, if somebody wanted to kill you, and, and had a threatening pose or gesture you would evoke anger in the middle of the brain, like where all core emotions are evoked, and then it sends out a myriad of responses to all organs of the body to ready the body for an action and that action is meant to be adaptive for survival. So anger will make us kind of want to make a fist and put up our dukes and get ready to attack. And it come, it's visceral. We all know that experience of when someone we care about insults us or doesn't do something that we really needed to and there's energy in the body and our, and we get tension in the body and we really feel like we want to lash out. So it's a full body experience and each of the core emotions have their own program that has an, uh, an uh, group of physical sensations that we can learn to recognize and name, and each of the core emotions has an impulse to action that we can learn to recognize, and, and explain and name, and, and an impulse to action, that we are, that it's pulling for us to do. And it's that whole experience that we want to get really good at recognizing and that is really just a part of knowing ourselves. The, the emotions react similarly in everybody. But there is nuance in everyone. So the way that I experience anger will be differently than the way you experience anger, Neil. And that's the same for all the core emotions. Neil Sattin: Great. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: So that's the bottom of the triangle. Does that make sense? Neil Sattin: Perfect. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: OK. Now there's uh, there's three corners of the triangle, which I'm going to explain. But there is a fourth point here and I'm just going to share it real quickly now because when we have a core emotion, we're at a fork in the road and there's base likely two ways it can go. We can bury that emotion and push it away and block it and then we're going to be moving to the top of the triangle. Or, we can validate it, name it, and work with the experience that it's evoking, in which case we get to this place that I put on the bottom of the triangle. That's called the "open hearted state of the authentic self." And what that is basically, a more practical way of saying, is it's a regulated state of mind and body and that when we are with our core emotions, and we let them process through, and we are allowed to experience them, and again nothing has actually happened yet in the outside world it's wholly internal, it's a way that comes the body back down. Because core emotions come up they kind of cause an arousal of the nervous system like a wave. You ride the wave and then they come down. And if we don't block them the energy kind of naturally will dissipate over time, and in ways and techniques that we can help with that, and then we come back to this kind of calm state, where our mind and body feel relaxed, and in that state good things happened, and there's a bunch of c-words that I borrowed from Richard Schwartz with his permission, where when we stay in this kind of calm regulated state, we are more curious, we feel more connected, we have a greater capacity for compassion for ourselves and other people, we tend to feel more confident because we can deal with our own emotions and we feel more courageous in life and we have more clarity of thought. So you obsess less. So this is where we all want to spend more time. Neil Sattin: Definitely. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: And it's not that it's the goal to spend all our time there, right? That's impossible because life happens but that's where we want to spend more and more time. And so working this change triangle to get back to core emotions and to go through them down to this calm state is the whole point of this. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I think it's important to mention that too, that we're describing this, this static image but it implies a process that you can go through in order to get to the openhearted state of self energy that that Hilary's just described. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Right, because we're moving around this triangle all day every day many times and it's what we do that matters and then we're also kind of moving around in this triangle in life on a macro level spending less time in our defensive states and more time in the openhearted state. So. So that's sort of a sort of a micro and a global way to look at it. Neil Sattin: Great. So then when you have that core when you're when some core emotional response comes up, you said you're at a fork in the road and you can head, you can ride the wave and and get to that core self state or... Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Or like most of us do, because that's what we're taught to do in our society, is we tend to block them. And so the top of the triangle if we move to the top right that corner is labeled inhibitory emotions and the inhibitory emotions which everyone will recognize are anxiety, guilt, and shame. And again what they have in common is that they all push down, and block, and bury core emotional experience, in purpose for the purpose of pretty much getting along in our society. There are more social emotions, so that if the core emotions are the selfish emotions what's good for me the inhibitory emotions are, "How do I curb my own impulses and desires, so that I stay in the good graces, good graces of initially my mother and then my father and my siblings, my family, then my peer groups, my uh, by then you know as you broaden into society, my religious groups, my, oh, my collegial groups..." That we it's so important for human survival to get along. So in a way there's a fundamental conflict here. So, so the inhibitory emotions when we it's the way that we block our core emotions. And so what we end up doing is noticing that we have anxiety, for example, and if we have anxiety we know that we're on the top right hand corner of the triangle. But what that means practically, is that we also know that we are inhibiting some core emotional experience that if we can get to and name, and, and, and use, we will likely feel less anxious. Feel much better and I can give an example of this, but, then the way we do this is with muscular contraction, all sorts of maneuvers that anxiety, shame, and guilt block these core emotions and for different purposes. And some of us will feel more shame, some more anxiety. You know, we have to mix in genetics and disposition here, and then the environment for why we end up feeling ashamed or guilty or anxious. Neil Sattin: Right and something that feels important to name right here is the way that you can feel those inhibitory emotions from a core positive emotional experience as much as a core negative. And I'm kind of putting those words in quotes because I think what we're getting at here is that they all have the capacity to be positive but one might not think like, "Oh you know, I'm, I'm experiencing shame because I'm feeling too much joy right now," or "I'm too excited. And so my anxiety is coming in to to block that, or my guilt about being excited about this thing.". Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That is so crucial and the more that I do this work in psychotherapy and just observe the people that I'm with, the more I believe that it's the larger emotions. I wouldn't even say so... I think you're right, that people block joy and excitement and pride in the self and anything that makes us feel physically bigger. It's kind of fascinating you can almost reduce all below the neck deep experience into emotions that have energy that makes us feel larger, which is dangerous when we take up more space and we feel bigger, we tend to experience some inhibition either anxiety, guilt or shame. And so people tend to stay small and in a way people go negative... I'm not so sure anymore, which came firrt, err, do people kind of move into negative thoughts to keep them small? Because there's some core fear? Or is it that it's a it's a way not to feel big? I dunno if it gets sort of too complicated. But you can start to think of everything as almost like amoebas like am getting bigger or I'm getting smaller? And to begin to understand one's experience as, "Is this an expansive emotion now, that I'm feeling, like, joy and pride, and anger?" In which case it's going to make me feel vulnerable and then I'm going to come down on myself with some anxiety or shame or guilt. So that's just getting to what you were saying about people struggle with feeling good. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah. So it could go either way. And, and what I love is this sense of, "Oh. When I notice shame or anxiety or guilt that the problem isn't the shame or the anxiety or guilt." That's, the I don't want to spend all my time there, because they're indicating that there's a deeper core experience that's happening and that's where the the gold is. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. That's where the gold is. Now. I think it's also important to mention that that, we're talking about kind of detrimental levels of anxiety, shame and guilt here, that the shame has a purpose too. Guilt has a purpose. Like when we do something that hurts somebody else it's good that we feel guilty. That means that we're not a sociopath and so we want to listen to the shame. Listen to the guilt. Listen to the anxiety. And we also know that we have to look for our core emotions. So, it's, it's both because the inhibitory emotions are going to bring us to the relationship piece. But we also need to know what we're feeling so that we can express ourselves to, to yourself and to others. Neil Sattin: Yeah and I will say just as a side note your, your chapter on dealing with anxiety shame and guilt. I think it's also super helpful along with creating self compassion but for understanding the other people in your life and what might be motivating certain behaviors that you experience from them. That was, in many respects, worth the price of admission for the book because that's part of what's going on is not only understanding yourself but being able to see these things happening in other people and to, and to recognize how it might be impacting them as well. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. So we can understand ourselves and others and I've had so many people read the book and tell me that they thought it should be in the Parenting section of the bookstore because we also want to understand our children's emotions so we don't unwittingly cause too much shame and guilt and anxiety when it can be avoided just by the education and emotions. Neil Sattin: Yeah yeah they should have a "self parenting" section in the bookstore. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. Self parenting, and parenting though, there's so much you know parents mean well, I made so many mistakes. If I had had this at this book in my 20s that would have spared me and my children a lot of heartache and I know most people feel that way. Most people have intent to do good. And if you don't have proper information, and you're just basing things on what you sort of intuition and how you were raised and what society says then it's easy to make mistakes anyway, easy to make mistakes, and we're not free that you know there's no way not to screw up your children on some level but you just want to know what's going on in the emotion department. It's really, really helpful. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So we've covered the bottom corner of the triangle the core emotions, and the top right which is these inhibitory emotions that are are meant to block or suppress the core emotions. Neil Sattin: What's up with the with the other corners triangle. : So and again if we go back to that this is superimposed on the body. The point is of course in core emotions as in is in the gut area and then we're coming up. So anxiety and defenses are kind of sitting above the shoulders, is how I imagine them because they're out of, they kind of take us out of our body, they take us up into our head. And so because emotions, core emotions feel so at best they feel weird and new if you don't know what they are, and, and at worst they feel awful emotions and core emotions, and inhibitory emotions when they come in, in large doses and they come, many at one time and they're all mixed together... It's a horrible experience and a horrible feeling. And so we then tend to want to avoid the whole enchilada and we move into defenses and that's the topped, top left corner of the triangle. And defenses are basically anything we do to avoid feeling something that we don't want to feel and I don't even mean it in a pejorative sense I always say that that defenses, as I learned in AEDP training, which was so helpful, are really these brilliant creative maneuvers that humans can do to spare themselves pain as opposed to in my psychoanalytic training... I don't want to sell psychoanalysis down the river because I got a lot out of my studies there, but there was always this negative sense of bad, that you're doing something bad, and you're resisting and that defenses are bad and I think that defenses really need to be appreciated for one when they hold up. They get us through life. And two, when they don't hold up and we break through and start to have symptoms of depression or anxiety or many other things that we needed them at one time those defenses and now they're not working so well and then we need to embrace other ways of being that bring us peace and calm. Neil Sattin: So defenses are like toward the, the last stop on the on the train. They're, they're, they're meant to help you not feel anything. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Exactly. Or to for, to exchange one emotion for for something else like defenses... Emotions can be used as defenses. For example, I would, you know, my whole younger life, if I felt scared or vulnerable I sort of had a more of an irritable, crusty armor and I would get angry and I would try to curtail it a lot because I had a really sweet, gentle mom and a really sweet, gentle sister and I was kind of the, the, the, the tougher one in the family. So I was always working hard to be quote sweet like like my mom. But I felt it. I felt it and I really didn't understand. I would beat myself up for you know, Why, why do I feel angry?" And it was really a big defense against fear. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: I had no idea I had no idea even I was the one that I was anxious when I was younger because it was just kind of covered by this kind of this kind of tough armor. Neil Sattin: Right. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Or how many people do we know that might be feeling fear but instead go to like humor or lightheartedness, instead of instead of being able to go to that place. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. And so there are so many ways we can use defenses can be emotions. They can we can use behaviors as defenses. Self-destructive behaviors like, like cutting just behaviors like joking, making, being sarcastic, eye rolls, shrugs this is like body language defenses, not being able to make eye contact. There is, there is a myriad of defenses and I list a ton of them in the book and on my website. And you can try to recognize your own defenses which is probably one of the hardest things to do. It's much easier to see other people than ourselves and so you could probably much more easily recognize the defenses in the people in your family. But it's good to begin to recognize our own defenses so that we can loosen them up a little bit and know what the feelings are underneath them and then it kind of, gives us more resilience, more choices for how to be. Neil Sattin: Yeah if we wanted perspective from an outsider that we more or less trusted about our defenses what would you say is a is a safe way to ask for that from another person? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That's such a wonderful question. I think it's not only the safe way to ask for it, but I think you're saying to make sure that person is safe is a safe person to be vulnerable with. Yeah, because what we really want to spare ourselves, as much as possible, is the excruciating experience of being shamed or humiliated. So, I think I would say and I do say this to my to my husband and my children, even friends sometimes: "Please let me know if I do something that..." I mean it's not so much as a defense, I would say, "Please let me know if I do something that you don't like or that hurts your feelings or that doesn't feel right." And then I guess if I was asking it I think I would just leave it at that. I'm concerned for the people out there listening who might say that to somebody they care about who doesn't have a lot of therapy background or understand emotions that might not be so gentle. So, I think you could always say: "But, be please be gentle with me." You know and I believe in using humor and lightheartedness in relationships a lot, but you know be be gentle. But I do want to know.... Yes. Neil Sattin: Yeah. No, I think that's great to name that desire for for gentleness or just to point out like, it's, "It's kind of tender or vulnerable for me to even be asking you this but I know that you may see, something that I don't see." Yeah. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: That's it's such an interesting question Neil. No one's ever asked me that and I think it's because most people get feedback from their family, when they're, when they're acting in ways that are are not pleasurable and they they might not all be defensive maneuvers some may be just like self care. Like I don't want to do this. Setting a limit or a boundary and then somebody reacts badly to that. But some of it would be defensive. So again, it's sort of interesting to think about. Neil Sattin: Right and I think if you're not inviting someone into that conversation, then the feedback that you're getting is most likely not coming at you either at a moment where you're truly receptive to it, or in a manner that's that's constructive.   Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Mhmm. Exactly. Constructive being the operative word. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So we we found our way up to the top. And let's talk about what the process would look like if I noticed, "Oh I'm about to do that defensive thing that I always do." So maybe for someone like I'll just kind of out myself here, I might go to a political blog or to Facebook or something like that. I'm doing that, it doesn't serve any real constructive purpose in my life. So, even though, you know, you could argue about being informed or whatever but when I notice that I'm doing that, what would be the steps that I would want to take to help bring me into identifying whether or not there was a core emotional experience at work? And I think, especially because we as adults... Like these patterns are pretty well developed for us. So, so it may be a bit of a journey to find your way down into into your core, but what's, what's the map look like? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. Yeah but I think very possible, and, and I like your example, which I'm going to address. And you know, we could also use the example of reaching for a snack when you're not hungry or reaching for a drink right after work. Right? These are all these kind of they're just sort of automatic defensive behaviors and they don't serve us. So what I do is, you know, for all these examples is the first thing we have to be able to do is notice, right? If we don't notice what we're doing then we can't work the change triangle at all. And the way you get good at noticing is really by slowing down. We can't really notice much about how we're feeling if we're moving fast, it just tends to obscure or we just stay up in our head and our thoughts are churning and it kind of numbs us out below the neck. So, I when I'm teaching new people this you know you can just set aside, you can write in your, in your inner, in your, in your calendar, in your phone, you know, just set aside three times a day and remember to kind of check in and observe what you're doing. Meditation, obviously, is a great practice for this. So, let's say you actually notice that you're about to go check, what did you say Facebook or the political blogs? Neil Sattin: Right side or more or more likely I'd, I'd be you know five or 10 minutes in, and I'd be like, "Wait a minute here I am. You know here I am on Facebook again.". Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Good. Good. OK. So before, or during... Neil Sattin: Just being, just being honest. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah of course. You know, join the rest of humanity. That's great. So what you would do is stop what you're doing. And you would, kind of feel your feet on the ground like you instructed me to do before this, and, before we started, and maybe take a few deep breaths to kind of set the stage for noticing. And then I personally especially in the beginning would ask myself I would kind of scan my body head to toe, and toe to head, and just kind of see what I can notice about my physical state. Am I tense? Am I anxious? I might even go through all of the emotions and ask myself, "OK Hilary,or Neil, you know, do you notice any anxiety now check? Do you notice any shame? No, not right now. Do you notice any guilt? No. OK, so we've got some anxiety. What else? Let's see if we can get below that anxiety and see what else we might be feeling". And you may want to bring in the context of what's going on in your life also and what might be affecting you. So let's say, uh, this is the day my, my, my kid goes off to kindergarten. What else is happening today? I have work stress, what not. So then I might ask myself, "Is any of these things in life causing me fear? Check." And then we want to go through all the core emotions, do I feel angry? No. Do I feel sad? Check. And you want to name all the emotions that you possibly can but kind of holding them all together like, as I tell my patients, try to hold all the emotions but imagining them with lots of air and space between each one, because we have to, we have to attend to each emotion separately. Another way that I say it, is don't say "I feel afraid but I also feel sadness." I want to change the "but" to an "and." "I feel sad, and I feel afraid, and I feel excited, and I feel happy." And once we get a lot of emotions going at the same time it's a lot of energy. We can automatically push those down because we don't know we can handle it all. Feel some anxiety and then boom. Reaching for a political blog. So, that would be the idea to try to start to name the emotions and then just by doing that just by naming emotions and taking that time to slow down and do that, you might feel much, much more relaxed and in fact it gives you space to think, "OK do I want to continue with the blog? Because this is a good distraction that I need now." Because defenses aren't bad by definition it's only if they're hurting us or if we rely on them all the time. So you may continue to read or you may decide, "You know what. I'm going to go exercise instead or I'm going to go tell my partner how I'm feeling about everything going on." That type of thing, and that's the last step is to think through, what's the best thing for me right now? If I don't feel better and I'm trying to change my state what are some things that, that helped me feel better where I can take better care of myself. Or you may want to work with one of these emotions using some of the techniques that I, that I outline in the book. Staying with them in the body or imagining using fantasy to discharge some of the energy. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I definitely want to talk about fantasy, but before we go there, I, I just want to name that for me even though I knew this to be true it was really a revelation to stop and think about what that's like, that we can be experiencing fear and disgust and joy and sexual excitement that we could be feeling all of those things at the same time. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Neil Sattin: Each one calling out for potentially a completely different kind of response. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Neil Sattin: So, no wonder we get all bound up with anxiety or overwhelm or feel any any of those things that just kind of paralyze us in a moment. Or if we, if we name one and we just kind of go with the first thing, "Oh, I'm feeling sad right now," and then you neglect the others, how you could feel incomplete in terms of actually processing the experience that you're having. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. Exactly and that's why it's so important to keep sort of searching when you notice one particular emotion to just keep looking around. What else is there? And to, it really helps to kind of run through that checklist. I still do that I've been practicing this a long time and I, I run through the different emotions and once you name them and search for them you know you might even find them. I say to my patients, "Even there's you know just check for like a little molecule of joy there, or a little molecule of sadness, and then if you find it you know, Oh maybe I need to actually make space for this particular emotion I spend so much time, you know, really orienting myself towards my anger, that I'm missing out on what the sadness or the fears telling me.". Neil Sattin: Yeah. I was I was searching for a good acronym while, while I was reading the book, I was like there must be a good one for those core emotions to like help people just kind of do the, do the checklist. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. Did you find one? Because I looked hard also. Neil Sattin: Not yet but I'll let you know if I can. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. Yeah. Neil Sattin: And there's not a good one for all those C's when you're when you're... But I do like how you also offer that as an example of looking for you know am I feeling calm, right now? Am I feeling clear? Am I feeling compassionate? To be able to go through that list to find the nuances of your experience right now and to highlight, "Okay here are ways that I am feeling courageous even though at the same time I'm getting all this, this tremulous fear going through my body. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes, exactly. And I think even sometimes you can bypass the whole thing and just really try to shift into those states if you don't like what you're feeling right now and it's a particularly a great idea when you're about to have a conversation with somebody important to you, to before you do try to, try to just see if you can shift into a calmer, certainly more curious standpoint, more state, where you can try to take a couple of deep breaths and access some curiosity, so we don't make assumptions about another person's motives because they're often incorrect you know we make up our own stories and then we believe them without checking them out. And to try to lean into connection, so that, let's say you know again your partner really pisses you off. It's important, and the brain doesn't naturally do this, you have to push, put energy behind this idea of remembering the good things somebody has done to kind of take the steam out of the uh... You know, we can rev ourselves up with anger and start to think it's like chaining, you then, everything that someone ever did to hurt you comes back with a vengeance. Unless we really pull the other way and say, "OK, what is why do I love this person." Or if I can't remember that I loved him at one point, you know what is it that I used to love about this person and try to conjure those that part of it as well. It takes energy. It's not easy because we're really pulled to tough places and we have to use mental energy to pull ourselves back and it doesn't feel good at first, always. Neil Sattin: Yeah yeah. Wow so many different directions that I'm going in at the moment. I think first I just want to name, it's really lovely the way that you show the integration of AEDP work through the vignettes, vignettes that you offer in your book, and also internal family systems and working with different parts of you, younger parts. If you're a listener for, and you have been for a while then you've perhaps heard the interviews we've done with Dick Schwartz, the most recent one is episode I wrote this down episode 140, where so you can you can get a sense of how the two modalities work really well together, fit super well together. And so all of that work to get to understand and process and metabolize your emotional experience, and to learn how to show up for yourself can come through what we've been talking about today and can also be helped by getting to identify the places in you that are stuck in a past experience. And the reason that I wanted to bring that up is because you were just talking about like the the possibility of skipping to connection and calmness, or doing what you can to to get to that place especially if you're going to reach out to someone that's important to you. And I liked how you also bring in the work of Peter Levine and talk about how all of this energy that emotions bring up in, in us when they're not processed when, when that energy isn't metabolized, then that is what creates trauma in our bodies -- that, that stuck energy that never quite got released. And so some of those stories in your book are just were so moving to me, as I, as I read them and got to see like oh right there's another nuance of how this could apply to me or to my clients. And so really beautiful, I think, to to see it written out like that but let's get into a little bit more of the... Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Thank you by the way. Neil Sattin: Yeah yeah you're welcome. Let's get into the metabolizing and in particular let's talk about fantasy, because that use of the imagination and how it can help I think can be so powerful for us when we, when we're wrestling with that question of: "Well, I feel so angry or I feel so sad or bereft or whatever it is, and I don't know like I want to bring it to that person I want them to feel my anger. I want them to see the depths of my sadness." How can we do it in a way that's actually going to be more productive and give us the satisfaction of truly handling and, and, and giving our body some relief from those unfulfilled impulses? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's a question that has many levels because I think what I'm first responding to is this idea of wanting someone to see and wanting to really be seen, in with one's emotions. And so I think that is legitimate. And, and then there are times when that's all somebody sees and they get weary. So it's it's really... you have to keep a lot in mind. So, I thought you were just going to kind of ask me about working with child parts and releasing stuck energy as a sort of either, either as an alone process or with a therapist and then you surprised me when you brought in this idea of, if you bring it into relationship and that makes it all sort of like it, I think we have to deal with one and then the other. Neil Sattin: Yeah let's start with a first part.: Yeah, let's start with the first part... Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah. Neil Sattin: ...which would be that the inner process that we might go through, and then and then we can bridge into bringing that into relationship. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Great. Great. So, I now I really consider myself a trauma therapist and I now think of trauma as something that everybody has just from surviving their childhoods. And so then we were changing the definition of trauma. This is still very controversial. You hear the word trauma, which most people still think of as a, as a some major catastrophic event happening, that is trauma. I'm adding on to that something that is also called small-T trauma -- which many people in the trauma field object to because it's it's sort of putting a value judgment on trauma. That one is smaller or bigger, which is, I want to say, that, that's not the case it's just some way to to differentiate different types of trauma. And small-T trauma is really what I believe everybody has, and small-T trauma is really, um, can be from so, so many, so many things that actually happened in our childhood. But the bottom line is, and I'm sure Diana Faucheux and David Marr spoke about this in the other episodes, that whenever we have too much emotion which happens a lot when we're children because our brains are full of emotion and very powerful emotion. So when there's too much emotion and too much aloneness at the same time, then the mind figures out a way to kind of block it. So it's not overwhelming. And then once that happens a lot where we're kind of blocking whole parts of ourselves and whole experiences and those are these little kind of child parts that we all have that are alone these kind of child parts of us exist alone because they had to be kind of cordoned off. So this, this happens you know if you have... In most families there's a parent that doesn't tolerate a certain emotion and so when you feel that emotion you are really told, you know, to put it away or get over it or you're yelled at or it's not acknowledged. So that kind of thing, on a small level, becomes big because when we have to exclude parts of our experience then they are literally excluded in the mind, they're not integrated. They're not connected to other parts of the... of us. So these are the the parts when I use the word parts from Richard Schwartz or in psychoanalytic literature they were called interjects. That we might have absorbed parts of our parents in us. It can be many, many different things but these are the parts that sort of live on with us, within us and they can get triggered and then we can start to react. The reaction is, is not really commensurate with what happens in our adult relationships. So, I think everyone can relate to like just when somebody pokes you in that just wrong place and you felt the feeling many, many times before and you can kind of track it back into fourth grade when you were bullied or ostracized, or you can track it back to sixth grade when you started to know that your sexuality or gender wasn't the same as the people around you or you were punished too severely, yelled at, you know all these or somebody you loved died when you were young or got sick or there was substance abuse, active substance abuse in the family, all these type of things and then these parts of us hold... They have their own triangles in a way and we need to be with those parts and liberate those old emotions so that they don't fire off and cause havoc in our adult relationships and inside us and make us feel bad all the time. Neil Sattin: Yes. So we can, so you can get related to in a particular moment. The part of you that is feeling, that is having this emotional experience and to what was happening at the time and the way that you portray that in the book, I think is, is a great illustration of how to go through this process for someone and then talk about if you could, that, taking it to that next level of where you incorporate fantasy as a way of helping either a younger part or just helping yourself in the present with an emotional feeling how you could actually kind of burn off some of that energy before you're bringing it out, into how you connect with the world. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah I guess I'll use the, we could take any emotion and you can change this, but I'm going to, I'm going to go with these big energy emotions that are common like how you burn off as you say anger energy and also kind of feeling good about the self prideful energy both of these create a lot of anxiety and depression in people when they're blocked. And so I really like to, to harp on let's liberate this, this energy and how can we do it in a safe way. So one of the the the most effective ways to work with anger is, and I use this a lot myself... And I'm sort of pausing here because as people listen to this, it may seem kind of crazy. But we begin with the fundamental idea that the brain doesn't know the difference between fantasy and reality in certain, in emotional ways. And we know this from experiments where somebody imagines running and they're hooked up to an FMRI, that they imagine they're running. And there is movement in the in the parts of the brain as if they were actually running. So... And we see this every day in clinical practice. So, let's say I am angry, I'm going to take my sweet and wonderful husband John as an example here because I use him all the time. Let's say John does something, and he really doesn't anymore, we really get along quite well. But let's say he did something that really, really threw me into a rage. What I have learned to do and practice many times is before I go talk to him about it, I will, I know I will be able to identify that I am angry, right? And rage is sort of all emotions are on a spectrum from a little irritation or annoyance to outright rage. I will know, I will be able to say to myself: I am enraged. I will be able to feel that deeply in my body a burning energy in my stomach and a, and a movement of energy that wants to come right up and out, and I will not do anything, but I will focus in on that energy, listening to it with a kind of curiosity, kind of tuning in like a radio receiver feeling it deeply and seeing what that energy wants to do to John and it might want to just, so I and then I try to make it into a fantasy. So the idea is I'm noticing that if that energy could come up and out of me in a fantasy or a movie like, let it play out in a movie I would see myself just like punching the crap out of him. Like that's how angry I am that I really want to hurt him. And then I will allow myself in a fantasy to imagine doing that. And I do this in sessions for people that have a lot of pent up energy from being abused as children and neglected and various very hurtful things that were done to them. So I can see myself actually doing what this anger wants to do and trying to really even feel it as I see myself making contact with skin. And just let it... Imagining it and imagining it, watching it and watching it and watching it, and doing it and doing it and doing it in fantasy, until it feels done. Like the the energy will discharge and will drain out. And then when I tune back into my body, I'll feel probably tired and a little more calm so that I can then gather my wits about me and go back and say, and say, "We need to talk about what you did. I was so furious because you hurt me so badly when you did this this and this. And I never ever want you to do that again." That type of thing as opposed to storming out, I wanted divorce, you know this isn't working or attacking him you know verbally abusing him for everything that he's ever done, and which isn't going to help, it's going, it may feel better in the moment. And then I'm going to feel guilty afterwards. He's going to withdraw. It's going to escalate a fight and it's going to increase our disconnection. Neil Sattin: Yes. . Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Does that make sense? Neil Sattin: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And one thing that I think you mention in the book is how often you can go with that initial like you're feeling all that anger and rage and seeing that. And then when that is finally discharged through imagining this scenario, that it leaves room for another core emotion to rise up. So it may not end there, it may be that after you experience your rage, you then experience your sadness or your fear. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. Neil Sattin: And so there's there's a lot there to be processed and what you named so beautifully was the problem not only with having those experiences, but, or emotions but having them and feeling alone and how showing up for yourself in this way also undoes that aloneness. I think that's such a powerful aspect of the work as you describe it. It's also so powerful in my experience of Dick Schwartz's work in IFS, that it it's kind of undoing aloneness with yourself not that you don't want to get to a place where you're inviting other people in. But, it also just builds such resilience knowing that in a moment like that, a powerfully charged moment, you actually have the capacity to to do something about it. Just you. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. And in that sort of reminds me to say that when you are connecting to yourself in that way, one has to have the utmost compassion and empathy as though you were relating to your own child or pet who you love or someone that you really cared about that you would never hurt. It's really unconditional love and positive regard, and not shaming yourself not judging yourself. Right? Because fantasy is so fabulous it doesn't hurt anybody. Even though some people get scared you know, when a lot of people that have a lot of trauma or even a little trauma, and I first kind of try to teach them how to do this. They... Guilt comes up and they're like," Well I don't feel good about myself. You know good people don't do this," and and I was like, "Well I'll explain. You know, you don't do it out in real life. That's what we're trying to to prevent." But, the capacity to use fantasy is very, very healthy and that's why it's so important when you have little children to use imaginative play and even as parents listening that when you're one child let's say wants to hit your other child, when they're young, because it's not always easy to have a sibling. Just use this as an example. You don't kind of block the anger and say no you have to love your your sister or brother, and, and we don't hit, you have to find a way to, to accept and to channel it, like we don't hit grown ups and we don't say mean thing -- we don't say we don't hit people and we don't say mean things to people. But here's this doll you can imagine it's your sister. And we can beat it up together and have a good old time. And that way the kid is learning to sublimate -- how to use emotions and play at the exact same time and that it doesn't have to be a toxic experience that the emotions are validated and they have to be released. And it doesn't have to be with again beating up like or even a fantasy of beating up like I just shared about myself. It could be writing these things out, unedited, just writing what you want to say to someone drawing a picture of what you want to say or do to someone. The idea is to just get it out, and it has to work so we not only have to get it out but you have to sort of the next step after this is do I feel calmer. Do I feel better. And if the answer is no, there's either more to be done or there's inhibitory emotions that are getting in the way and complicating it or other emotions that need tending. And it may be that you need to bring it to someone who is a professional to help you do this. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I was going to say this could be a good place to get support. Especially at something. If you're like, Oh, that feels like a big river of rage or grief or whatever it is. Well great. Like it's awesome that you identified that and sit with someone who knows how to help, how to hold you in that. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Exactly. Exactly. Neil Sattin: Well what a rich conversation. And before we go today, Hilary I'm wondering if we can just take a moment to bring this back into the relational realm and, and talk about how, like, if you identify something going on with your partner or something is going on with you and we've talked about taking this space so that you can process and metabolize, is there a way to bring what you now know about the change triangle, maybe into your connections so that you and your partner can now be on the same team with seeing how this dynamic is at work as the two of you come together? What's a good first step, I think, for people to bring this into their relationship? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Well, what what I would say as a, as a good first step is to make sure that both of you have the exact same information. So when possible, I really wrote the book to be used in many ways as a, as a workbook and to read the book together with your partner and to go through the exercises gives you just that, you're on the same page. And even though it will take practice over a lifetime to work it together. That at least you have the same bit of knowledge and you've gone through the same exercises which are pretty simple and, and, and, and, and just to say why I put case examples is because emotions have to be experienced. How do you help somebody get a sense for an experience? And that had to be through the stories. So, I would say just to make sure that the person that you're wanting to connect with has some basic emotion education. And... Neil Sattin: Perfect. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: And then after that established ground rules. I wrote a little blog on this for, for, for how to find your life partner on medium that you want to establish ground rules that you won't be mean that nobody is going to attack or retaliate in ways that are dangerous and hurtful and that you don't abandon, so that if a conversation has to stop because it gets hard, and one person gets too anxious, then you then you have to be able to say to each other. I'm overwhelmed I'm not able to really think as I'm talking to you, anymore. Let's take a break but we'll come back and finish this because really in relationships all there, all there is is talking. You have to just keep talking. And then lastly I would say is you want to try to use the change triangle to make sure that, that both people are relating as much as possible from a core place. Either from that openhearted state or from the emotional state of the core emotions where you're saying, you're using I statements like, "I'm afraid," "I feel anger about this," "I feel sadness about this," as opposed to you, you, you, you, you. And that, when you're, when both people move to the top of the triangle, when you're either you're they're anxious or ashamed or guilty or defensive, you really have to stop. Like, I make a time out motion when I'm working with couples or even working in my own relationship, let's stop and then I say let's rewind to where we were going fine and then somehow we went off the rails and then it's usually a miscommunication, or let's stop and take a break and calm down and let's come back tomorrow again sit and have coffee or tea and begin again and see where did we go wrong, where, where, literally if you sort of track moment to moment: You're having a discussion. Everything is going fine. I want to talk about you know, why we, we don't have more fun together and then all of a sudden one person starts to get anxious or you start to, one person starts to get angry then you can literally stop and say, "Let's rewind to right before you, like I felt like I was with you we were connected and then all of a sudden I said, 'Well I don't really you know. You know, you're no fun anymore.' And then I noticed you got defensive." And then that's where you have to work because the person might say, "Yeah. When you told me that I wasn't fun anymore it hurt my feelings. And then I, I went up into the top of the triangle. I started to get defensive." Neil Sattin: That's great. And, and I see to this opportunity for couples who really start to get this together to like, in a state of shame or anxiety or guilt those inhibitory emotions to learn how to show up for each other in those moments to help, settle whatever is going on or to help navigate their partner back into a place of like feeling understood or seen, and that might be a good, a good return visit for you on the show to talk a little bit more about how how they can collaborate in a moment like that to bring themselves back to a core emotional state. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yeah I would love to. Neil Sattin: Hilary Jacobs Hendel, thank you so much for being here. If people want to learn more about your work where can they find you? Hilary Jacobs Hendel: I have a website with tons of free resources all about emotions and that's Hilary-Jacobs-Hendel-dot-com. Or you could just google "the change triangle" and you can also get there by going to "the-change-triangle-dot-com," and there's articles that I've written for major media outlets. There's my blog which the titles are pretty explanatory of what they're about. And then there's a tool box section that has a lot of resources. So that would be the best place. I also have a youtube channel, so I could go over and explain certain aspects of this and I do something called 1 minute videos on emotional health, because everybody's so busy and nobody has an attention span anymore, so that's "The Change Triangle" YouTube station and then my Website. And then of course the book is the whole enchilada because it was what I did is it's got exercises so that you work The Change Triangle along with me as I'm working The Change Triangle with the people in my practice and then there's little bits of no jargon science to explain what's going on because I wouldn't have been interested in any of this had it not been deeply grounded in current neuroscience. That was really important to me. So, that's really gives you the whole kind of flavor of what's going on. Neil Sattin: Great. And again the book is called "It's Not Always Depression" and we will have links to all of that on the page for this episode where you can download the transcript. And that's Neil-Sattin-dot-com-slash-triangle or as always you can text the word passion to the number 3-3-4-4-4 and follow the instructions. Hilary... Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Yes. Can I just say one more thing? Neil Sattin: Yeah of course. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: The book just won two book awards that won the 2018 Best Book Award for psychology and mental health, and the Nautilus Award for personal growth. So I just wanted to share that because I'm hoping that people will read this book and that eventually the, our entire society will be very well educated from an emotional standpoint. I think it can really change things for the better. Neil Sattin: Absolutely and congratulations on those awards. They are well-deserved. You definitely have a gift from taking all of this information and making it really practical for people who read the book. So, big recommend for me. Hilary Jacobs Hendel: Thank you. Thank you.

After last episode.......yep it got me talking about that incident...well I'd be using that excuse sometimes for stupid annoying pieholes that are on Riverdale, the show that I am watching; and watched a lil bit of Jane the Virgin (I watched the rest of the episode in my living room btw, just not when I was recording). But ANYWAYS, what's with the dealy-yo with Produce X 101 tho? Well I'll explain my best on it, and you can take a listen to this ep ;)

Neuroscience experts, practitioners, research and methods for making brain-friendly organizations and healthy individuals. Subscribe to Mind Your Noodles!   This is the sixth episode of the Mind Your Noodles podcast. In this episode our guest is author and neuroscience practitioner Christine Comaford. We discuss her SBM (Safety, Belonging and Mattering) Model, the difficulty of revenue inflection points and two tools to help employees aspire and own their own insights.   Show Notes [00:00:06] Mind Your Noodles Episode 6 [00:01:33] Christine's Story [00:09:21] SBM and the Brain [00:15:55] How the Brain Reacts [00:20:17] Looking for Role Models [00:22:16] Why Organizations Pull for Smart Tribes [00:23:54] Revenue Inflection Points [00:27:34] Two Tools [00:34:00] smartribes.com/ERA [00:35:07] Storytelling and Reframing [00:39:51] Emotional Change Takes Time [00:40:47] Start with the Willing [00:42:42] How to Approach the Organization - Smart Tribes Style   Transcript Tripp: [00:00:06] Take care of the brains that take care of you with the Mind Your Noodles podcast or we keep you up to date on the latest neuroscience research and practices to keep your brain healthy. And strategies to help your organization be brain friendly. Hi I'm Tripp Babbitt host of mine your noodles. My guest today is Christine Comaford. Welcome Christine.   Christine: [00:00:38] Thank you. TRIPP It's awesome to be here.   Tripp: [00:00:40] Well I got to tell you Christine. I've spent the last week like inside your head somehow I've been watching videos of your book The Power your tribe book which is your latest book. I've been to YouTube I read your Web site I got your mission vision values sitting in front of me. And so just kind of introducing yourself to guests and I also know that you're into story so people of of have listened to an episode by park how talks about the importance of story. And by the way it seems to be the only thing people in the neuroscience world seem to agree on is storytelling.   Tripp: [00:01:17] So I thought that maybe you could give us your story and tell us a little bit about you and how how you wound up doing things in the neuroscience world. And I'll I'll just shut up at this point.   Christine: [00:01:33] Got it. Thank you. So you know what we do first. First let me just make sure he understands what we do. So at Smart Tribes Institute what we do is could be considered Applied Neuroscience if you will. We take the latest neuroscience research and the stuff that's useful to leadership and we then map that down to very specific very practical tools and we'll be talking about and sharing some of those tools today. So we are in executive coaching firm organizational development. We do workshops consulting coaching. So we are always looking at what in neuroscience has been discovered recently what have we learned recently that is actually relevant to optimal teams to leading on a new level to applying tools to sales and marketing. So let's just kind of a quick look at context if you will. So. So when I was 13 I started studying different religions because I wanted to understand what's the meaning of all this. And by the time I got to 15 I had studied a bunch of the different religions and I said you know what I think that it's important to start to understand human potential and then it was called human potential. So I went to a program called est Earhart seminars training and they said Come back when you're 18 and I thought you know there's gotta be a way around this. So I got my parents to take EST which is you know a very and which was a very intense personal development multiple weekend deep dive where basically you're totally ripped down so you can then build yourself up internally in a new way. And my parents when they were good sports and then they wrote a letter so I could go.   Christine: [00:03:15] And I learned that life is meaningless. You have to create meaning in your life and you can. And we have full 100 percent responsibility for whatever happens in our life. And I was absolutely fascinated by that and I thought that is so great why don't I just you know take control of my life and run away and start my you know start my career. So it's a totally delusional. So then I was 16 I had a fake I.D. I ran away in New York City.   Christine: [00:03:43] Nobody questioned Tripp. The easiest way to make my fake I.D. was to go from 1962 to 1952 right.   Christine: [00:03:52] Nobody questioned that there was a 16 year old who said she was 26. I mean like there's a huge difference in appearance but nobody bothered. So I got to I got to work in a neuroscience lab then it was called a human potential lab. And so I was totally geeking out on wow what makes people do what they do. How do they form beliefs. Where do behaviors come from you know identity come from all the stuff was super interesting to me. So I started at 16 and I was totally like burnt out with the world and I like being an adult. And at 17 I took my vows as a Buddhist monk. So then I thought you know I'm going to check out the god angle because maybe that's. It's like it's not the religion angle it's actually doing it. You know celibacy vegetarianism you know vouchers.   Christine: [00:04:43] So I did that for seven years but while I was doing that I was teaching myself how to program computers. So I thought wow well this is actually kind of programming the brain which is the coolest computer out there. But let's also learn like how to program computers because sooner or later this month thing might not work out and I'm going to need a job.   Christine: [00:05:00] So because I was like going you know I think we need to go down and they were like No let's go up and out I'm like. I think Buddhism is going the wrong direction you know and they're like Oh   Christine: [00:05:12] So I was you know you know I want to go in and down and in the in the the branch of Tibetan Buddhism I was and they wanted to transcend transcend. I'm like Oh I think we could deal with our stuff first you know. So anyway ultimately I broke my vows and went to a different type of monastery which was Microsoft. And I fit right in. You know. You know socially inept and all that stuff. And so what we what I did was I kind of brought all the the the spirituality stuff and the brain stuff and there how people form their beliefs stuff. And I kept working on it. And you know ultimately I built a bunch of companies sold them or took a public and the whole time I'd been just going Wow. Human beings. There's a there's a vast universe inside of each of us like let's understand it you know cause like that's like the great frontier the Star Trek was talking about. So. So that's how it all how it all started. OK.   Tripp: [00:06:09] So Christina I've written down a couple of things here. One is under achiever and low energy.   Christine: [00:06:18] Slacker.   Tripp: [00:06:18] Oh my God you're killing me. All right. Well this is great. No. That's a great story. I do like that story. So here we go. Go ahead.   Christine: [00:06:29] So I mean that's that so. So now what we do is what's kind of cool is I retired at 40 because I was like OK I've done it I've done business I've done money you know I've done all these other things that I'm done. You know now I'm just going to like chill out and you know hang out with nature and and then my dad got pancreatic cancer and I've been by then I had been a hospice volunteer. I've been volunteering with hospice for 20 years now. Now it's 20 years I've helped 43 people die. That's why volunteer work that I do. And and I really thought you know what all these stories start to come up. So I want to understand my life like my dad is dying. You know I want to understand my life. So I started running stories and ultimately became a book and then it became a New York Times bestseller and then suddenly everyone's calling me and I'm Unruh tired. So I became unretired at it at like 41. So I kind of failed retirement. And I'm like 56 now. And just that's what we do now we help companies help their people perform at new levels with much greater engagement fulfillment satisfaction lower burnout lower stress. And people just get to see how awesome they are and the companies get to thrive and do really well. Everybody's happy the tools work great. And it takes a lot less energy you know. So that's even better. Like why get it done in 60 hours when you could do it in 40 you know.   Tripp: [00:07:58] Yeah. Boy Lot to unpack there. I feel like I haven't lived up to my potential after listen to you tell those stories although I know people like you.   Christine: [00:08:13] Well that was my path. Let me just say that you think it might not fun and glamorous now but it was freaking hard. I'm thinking about your parents at the moment. Yeah. Yeah they were good sports. My mom just passed away in October of 2018.   Christine: [00:08:28] And yeah we use these tools. You know I use these tools with Mom and Dad as they were going through their death process. So some of the tools that we're going to learn today because it just helps us shift into you know a different mindset where there isn't suffering you know. OK.   Tripp: [00:08:43] Well in the beginning of Power Your Tribe you start to get into the brain and this whole thing on SBT and I've read enough books now you know people some people are comparing the importance of social as much as even sustenance and Maslow's hierarchy saying that those are actually equal.   Tripp: [00:09:08] You know they're going so far as to say some things like that. And and you've got to start us out a little bit with the basics of the brain and the whole concept of this SBT and what that acronym is.   Christine: [00:09:21] Yeah. And actually the acronym is SBM safety belonging mattering. Okay. No problem. So. So this is just gonna be a super high level view of the brain in the context of leadership. OK so three key parts of the brain reptilian brain a million brain and neocortex that's where the prefrontal cortex is reptilian brain. This is our brain stem. This is where we have this is basically our stimulus response machine coded for safety. This is where we have life support systems breathing temperature regulation balance the reptilian brain doesn't understand quality of life. So if you touch something hot you'll jump away just automatically right your reptilian brain because it's keeping you not dead. It doesn't think of living or dead it thinks of dead and not dead. So pretty simple really pretty simple pretty darn primal. OK. So concerned primarily with physical life you know physical not deadness. OK next mammalian brain which is more our emotional. Our emotions are our emotional brain concerned with whether somebody is a friend or foe. A little bit more evolved than dead or not definitely but still a stimulus response machine coded for emotional safety.   Christine: [00:10:42] Now the limbic system the debris always talks about the fight flight freeze response is a series of areas of the brain and in my experience the try and brain theory it kind of overlaps the reptilian mammalian so it's not quite so clean as to say it lives there. But here's what's interesting and here's what leaders need to really know. The hippocampus the hippocampus in the mammalian brain which is responsible for learning and memory. It's in the emotional brain. OK so what does this mean. Companies will have like Oh I'll walk into a company. Oh what are your values. Oh just a sec and they'll start digging through their file cabinet I'll be like Wait you don't like. No your values by heart. No. I mean you know they change and they're kind of boring and you know so they're not emotional. So if we want somebody to learn something we want somebody to retain something. We have to attach emotion to it. Why. Because humans are emotional beings emotions to a human are like wings to a bird.   Christine: [00:11:40] They are how we navigate our experience in the world. And if we look at the research from Carnegie Mellon M.I.T. Stanford Harvard NYU UCLA we will see that 90 percent 90 percent Tripp of our decisions of our behaviors are driven are dominated by our emotional brain. This stuff is important we use our intellect and we think our intellect is awesome and it is but it's 10 percent of our decision making is 10 percent of why we respond the way we do. So anyway we got them a million brain and it's saying Friend or foe. All right next we've got the neocortex. Prefrontal cortex is part think of it like a like a bike helmet. Maybe it goes it goes kind of across the top of your head a little bit goes a little bit towards the back and the prefrontal cortex is right behind your head. The prefrontal cortex is where we have decision making vision language skills tool making discrimination that doesn't quite work for me judgment. We have the ability to say I'm here but I want to be there how do I get there.   Christine: [00:12:46] So if the prefrontal cortex could speak it would say What can I create so much more interesting than friend or foe or dead or not. Right. But but what we want then as leaders is all three parts of the brain working well together. So we get innovation creativity we have the level of safety that we need and when we have all three parts working together we call this the smart state. Now what happens though when we have lots of stress changing directives random acts of violence out there in the world crazy political climate you know all sorts of challenges out there in the world we often will go into what we call critter state like a little animal like a little critter stay for not dead or not fight flight freeze. Right. That's when we are in kind of reptilian mammalian brain lockdown. And when anybody listening has been under major stress you might notice that you don't have great ability to envision things. You don't have great ability to make decisions you don't have great ability with language skills et cetera because that part of your brain is shut down. So as leaders we want to get people in and keep them in the Smart State and we'll talk about some tools to do that today. Now to answer your question about SBM if we look at why we do what we do humans don't really buy products or services. You know what we're looking for out there in the world are one of three key emotional experiences safety freedom from fear certainty knowing people have our back belonging knowing that we fit in we have equal value we are loved we are cared for and mattering knowing that we are making a difference uniquely we are not a cog in a wheel we are a unique expression of our unique accomplishments are unique gifts are being recognized and seen.   Christine: [00:14:37] Achievement is here as well. So if you look at a company culture if you look at a country right. If you look at why elections swing to this side or that it's always due to safety belonging and mattering you can look at all the different models the SCAERF model the self-determination model it doesn't matter. It all boils down to three things. Why have seven when you can have three right. It's easier to remember. Okay. All right. Yeah.   Tripp: [00:15:06] So. So I thought that kind of comes into my mind and I guess maybe I start to look at myself. You know I spent my entire career learning things around statistics and a kind of engineering types of things Lean Six Sigma and all those types of things.   Tripp: [00:15:27] And one of the things that I've found over the years is that they can be totally ineffective unless somehow you're connecting. But I didn't have a method. You know what I mean. I didn't have a I didn't have a system to go through to be able to understand that the people I'm talking to needed safety belonging and all those things. Before I could even start talk to them about data and all of that is would you say that that's true. Pretty much across the board.   Christine: [00:15:55] Yep. If somebody is craving safety and they're not feeling safe. Think about when you've had that experience. Right. You're not super open to anything else. You're just trying to be safe. Right. Belonging if you feel like you don't fit in. You've had that we've all had that weird experience of Oh man I don't feel like I fit in I don't feel like I'm part of this group. Right. That's super distracting and unsettling and then mattering if we feel invisible. Gosh that's painful. You know how we're going to perform at work if we're not seen and we're not appreciated right ow ow ow. So as leaders it's really important to notice what somebody is asking for because when they're in critter state remember their prefrontal cortex is off line. So when they're in critter state they're gonna have certain behaviors that will clue you in that they are actually asking you for safety. So when somebody's in Critter state and they want safety because they're not experiencing it they're going to spread gossip and rumors spread fear. Talk about getting the heck out of here talking about exit plans. Right. Because their tribe is back to that adage you know misery loves company company they're trying to they're trying to reconcile how they feel inside and what the world looks like outside. So if everybody else is scared right then OK I'm not nuts. If somebody wants belonging and they're feeling like they don't fit in they will isolate drop communication withhold information. Right. Because they're not feeling that they belong with the other people. So they start to kind of affect belonging in those around them. So important in leadership mattering if somebody is in Critter state makes sense.   Tripp: [00:17:40] Yeah. Oh yes. It just takes me back to when I first time I was a manager I didn't know what I was doing.   Tripp: [00:17:45] You know you know and and you know 42 years ago I mean it was just kind of I don't know Game of Thrones yet to live.   Christine: [00:17:58] Yeah.   Tripp: [00:17:59] Where were you forty two years ago. Don't answer it. You know.   Tripp: [00:18:06] So let's let's finish up with mattering so with mattering if somebody has the behavior of condescension arrogance at the extreme extreme extreme mattering absence of mattering we can see bullying. So I want us to start to have some compassion when we see these challenging behaviors and instead of judging the challenging behaviors say oh wait a sec wait a sec. This person just wants safety. Let me sit down with them. Ask them how they're doing and see how we can give them some experience of safety. This person just wants belonging they're not being a jerk and withholding information they're not feeling connected to us. Let's go bring them back into the tribe mattering this person who is saying I'm doing everything nobody appreciates me this place would fall apart without me they're just looking for some mattering let's say hey wow I really appreciate your unique accomplishments you know you're unique gifts I really see as a thought leader Hey can I run some stuff by you because I really value your opinion. See we don't have to judge each other anymore. We can as leaders as leaders if we if we signed up to be leaders we didn't sign up to be taken care of but we signed up to take care of others and to help others rise up. We signed up to cultivate and elevate others. And if you don't want to do that you know leadership isn't your gig. You know I find so many people get surprised what is the take care by people what cause you signed up to be a leader.   Tripp: [00:19:34] You know that's interesting. It's. And I've been I guess I go back. You. We didn't have back in the day when I was a young manager knowledge of these types this type of thinking. I mean even the neuroscience community really a lot of the research has been done over the last decade. I mean some of that data certainly got more people you know running with those types of things. I wonder if it's how much do you think Christine that it is that maybe people don't want to be leaders because they see the leaders that they have and they said that I want to be like that ever. You know because they don't have a method they don't have this system to be able to break things down.   Christine: [00:20:17] Ok. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. I don't it's not a role model right. Hey well I don't want to be that if that's what leadership is. Give me the heck out. Here right now. Yes. And I think the more I hate to see enlightened look let's say aware conscious the more aware the more conscious we become we can start to look because we do have some good examples of leaders in the world. We have a lot of video kind of counterexamples Well I do want to be that but we have some good examples. You know we have Warren Buffett. You know we have you know we have a handful of people that can just say oh gosh that doesn't work for me. Use discernment instead of judgment. I'm going to go ahead and do this. You know we have a handful of people that are really making a difference. So everyone needs to kind of find who is their role model. And even if your role model is a character in a movie that is fine. No seriously Abraham Lincoln JF JFK I mean you know I think Meg Whitman is a great example of leadership. And you know we've got a lot of examples and I think you know Bill Gates has definitely mellowed over his years. You know back in the 80s he was not a great example of leadership. You know now he definitely is. You know Steve Jobs had his days for sure. You know we're we're hoping that Mark Zuckerberg is going to really turn the corner and you know become a stronger example of leadership. You know the line best is a little bit of a counterexample right now. But when he went along Musk manages his emotional state and gets out a critter state where he seems to spend a lot of time you know he'll be a great example of leadership. OK.   Tripp: [00:21:54] So one of the things I wanted to talk about here. Great conversation though I think this is great foundational stuff to be able to have the rest of these this conversation. But why do organizations. You know maybe just a couple of reasons why people come to Christine or you know Smart Tribes for help. Why do they pull for you.   Christine: [00:22:16] Yes yes. People come to us and one of two scenarios they want to grow and they don't quite know how to get to that next level. I mean they could keep doing it slowly creeping along but they either don't quite know to get all the way that they want to get. And you know if you need a jungle guide if you want to navigate a jungle you've not been through before because we've built companies up to seven billion dollars. And so that's a lot. Knows all that. That covers a big enough landscape for us and we've worked with guys at 1 million. But so how to actually get your people mobilize your people so that they can navigate growth and change. That's kind of the primary reason. And then secondary is when it's a turnaround situation you know or it's a integration situation. Wow. We're changing the direction of the company entirely and people are kind of freaked out or one of our clients. I mean gosh they've been they've been acquiring anywhere between seven and 14 15 companies per year. That integration alone of bringing all those people together. So it's navigating growth and change. You know it's called the executive summary. Now anybody who's doing that needs to help their people get to the next level.   Tripp: [00:23:34] You mentioned one of the things that I caught on it and you called them I think there are inflection points for.   Christine: [00:23:40] Oh yes. Type of thing yes.   Tripp: [00:23:42] Is is this a good place to talk about. Sure. I wasn't sure I didn't get enough. I may be out of the reading of the videos or I got confused so I thought maybe you could share with us what that means.   Christine: [00:23:54] Yeah and we totally geek out on revenue inflection points in our second book which is Smart Tribes. So yeah with power your tribe you're not going to see that much of it. Yeah. Power your tribe is more about human behavior whereas Smart Tribes is more about how to create a company and the structure of it so that people get in and stay in their smart state more. So we found over the past 30 years there are certain points when a company hits this revenue number it's a whole new company. And there are three things we've got to really look at the people and how we're caring for the people and helping them grow and align in a role and engage them the money how we're working through sales and how we're financing the company and how we're structuring operations et cetera. And then model business model you know if the dessert topping is a failure maybe we can make it into a floor wax. You know like how are we actually tweaking and adapting and shifting our business model to match the industry people money and model.   Christine: [00:24:54] So we've found we map it all out in Smart Tribes that revenue inflection points occur really profound ones at 10 million 25 million 50 million one hundred million 250 million five hundred million and then it goes generally with each billion or so. Once you get up to about five billion you know a couple more billion doesn't really change thing that things that much. But I want to I want to notice that anybody listening. What happens is if we don't take care of the people. Money and model components and we have this chart that shows you what you need to do in each of those areas. If you don't take care of those you won't navigate to and through that next revenue inflection point. I cannot tell you Tripp how many companies come to us and they are stuck around 25 30 40 million. They can't get to 50 million and they swirl around below that 50 million revenue inflection point or worst case they start to slide backwards. So you have to have the tools to get to the next level or you're gonna swirl or slide backwards because again how are you going to get somewhere that you've never been before you know if you don't know that the path if you will. So we have sort of four components. There's leadership there's influence there is navigating change and growth and then there's optimal teaming. And for each of those segments if you will and there are a one day workshop in the Smart Tribes methodology there are about seven tools one has six one is nine but there's an average of seven tools per per component. And some companies you know they've got there they're navigating change okay maybe but they aren't they'd navigate a lot better if they had stronger influence with their people or if their leaders were engaging in enrolling people better or their teaming isn't totally working and people aren't coming together and connecting. So there's usually an obvious kind of sign there.   Tripp: [00:26:59] Okay. So on those. So that's why they're swirling around this 25 to 40 million because they're deficient in one of these areas one or more of these areas is is that kind of what you find.   Christine: [00:27:09] Yeah. And it reflects in the people money or model.   Tripp: [00:27:13] Okay yeah. More specifically than that or more generally the people money model piece. Okay. Yep yep yep. Okay. Is there something else you want to say about growth because you're also involved in kind of helping companies with kind of their salespeople and so forth is there.   Christine: [00:27:34] Yeah. There are two things I want to focus on and I want you guys to learn two tools. So for starters what we really need to do in the workplace is we need to help people aspire. So we're cold and hungry now but we're go to the Ritz Carlton 24/7 room service Egyptian cotton sheets. So it's it's hard now but I see how great it's gonna be okay. Aspiration second is we need to help people have their own insights not leaderships insights that are handed down their own insights. So let's talk about a couple of tools then we'll talk about a sales and marketing tool. The first tool that is fantastic to help people have their own insights is called the outcome frame the outcome frame is a series of questions and the outcome frame starts with what would you like. So maybe we're looking at the problem let's start to look at the outcome that we would like. Okay. Oh and we can we can send you these images you can put them on the website so people can have a companion visual to go with this podcast. So question number one what would you like something you can create and maintain. I you know I'd like more strategic time. Okay good. Question number two what will having that do for you. What are the benefits how will you feel. Well I'll feel more engaged more energized like I'm really making a difference to the company I feel peaceful and powerful and proud and it'll be awesome. Question number three How will you know when you have it this is going to be the proof the criteria. Well I have more strategic time when I spend two hours or more each week on strategy and planning when I cut the number of meetings I attend by 25 percent when my direct reports are at leadership level five or greater.   Christine: [00:29:11] Okay great. Number four my favorite question what a value what that you value might you risk or lose what side effects may occur. Well to get more strategic time I might initially feel less important because I'll be less involved in the minutia I'll have to let go of some control maybe resist the temptation to rescue people. I'll have to oh shoot I'll have to invest time and cultivating leadership My people won't magically rise up I'll have to actually cultivate them. So question number 4 is there is the reason you don't have the outcome that you wanted. So because this Leader isn't willing to do these things they don't have more strategic time. Makes sense. Yeah well two more questions. Okay. Question number five where when with whom would you like it what I wanted it work. I want it with my direct reports I want it in 45 days. Okay great. What are your next steps. We've got to get specific here set up recurring meetings on my calendar for one on ones to cultivate leaders leadership and offload work. Determine what you need to skip implement Smart Tribes effective meetings and delegation processes. So we've got to actually spend about 15 minutes on this outcome frame to make sure that we are brain is. Firing the visual auditory kinesthetic possibly olfactory is many of the five senses as are possible. So we are stepping into that glorious future and test driving it. We're not fantasizing about it. We're saying wow what's it like in that cool future where I have this. Oh yeah I want this it's worth it. QUESTION.   Tripp: [00:30:48] Yeah. SO. SO WHAT I SEE built you building here is exactly what you talked about early in our conversation which is you're building this emotional foundation to be able to grow. Is that.   Christine: [00:31:01] Yes. Okay. Yes yes yes. And what's happening in your brain okay neural coupling. OK we're starting to step into this future dopamine Y. Right we're releasing dopamine we're saying oh this feels really good. Yeah. That that's going to start to motivate the reward oriented behaviors. If we're listening to somebody telling us a story you know the person who is hearing the outcome frame they're actually there they're going to start to mirror the behavior of who they're hearing and then cortical activity. You know we're processing facts were we're connecting parts of our brain that are called Broca's and Wernicke's areas we don't need to get on that boat but we're we're actually experiencing those sensory cues of of actually having that outcome so powerful so often I find people just look at the problem and they complain about the problem. Our job as leaders is to help them shift and focus on the outcome so please use the Outcome Frame for that. And we have to also look at how much resistance there is out there so there are seven steps to really BOOT build emotional resilience. First is releasing resistance because that way it makes room for more choice. So start to notice what the heck are we resisting. Resisting takes a tremendous amount of energy and now start to look at use the Outcome Frame. Oh but what what I like. OK. Number two we've got to start increasing rapport with ourselves.   Christine: [00:32:35] I call it antisocial media because it's not really helping people get more connected. What helps people get more connected and we know this from Alexandria Arabians research many many years ago is when we're with people physically we're seeing them we're hearing them we can touch them you know we're connected to them more deeply so increasing report yourself increasing report the others actually getting face time. Number three making new meaning start to notice when you get stressed and when you're on critter state start to notice what stories you're telling yourself oh he's so hard to work with Oh I don't like this and then do an Outcome Frame Well what would I like. We are meaning making machines and the stories we tell ourselves create are reality reality is what you say it is Shakespeare told us this ages ago there's nothing good or bad only thinking makes it so what are you thinking about something and if it's not working shift your reality and look at what you would like and start to create that name before anchoring the outcome that's more complex you're gonna need to empower your tribe to learn how to do that five enrolling and engaging others bring your safety blanket mattering they're six build tribal agility expand and keep that good change going seven. Expanding tribal power so safety belonging mattering we can use a lot four five six and seven.   Christine: [00:34:00] So if we start to notice how often do I feel good versus how often do I feel bad that will help us understand our level of emotional resilience. Everybody write this down go to Smart Tribes Institute dot com SmartTribesInstitute.com/ERA That's an emotional resilience assessment it's going to take you gosh five minutes and here's what's so cool about it as you answer these questions and then you're gonna get your answers displayed on the screen as well as emailed to you right away you're then gonna know what tools to use from power your tribe to give you a better experience.   Christine: [00:34:46] Yeah super cool super effective.   Tripp: [00:34:48] By the way I will put those in the show notes too so that people have a link to it.   Christine: [00:34:52] Okay great. And I will give you the outcome frame image and then the emotional resilience image. OK cool.   Tripp: [00:34:59] All right so we're in growth and we're talking about the outcome frame and you've given us several things to think about there and the resistance.   Christine: [00:35:07] So those are the two things that you need for growth then well releasing resistance helps you then focus on the outcomes that you want. Okay. Okay. It's not it's not quite that simple but that's a starter. Okay. You know Navigating Growth and change You gotta look out for the emotional state right to safety belonging mattering. We want to make sure that we teach everybody to tell to tell news stories that we're telling a story that doesn't feel good. A lot of companies think about this in your experience. Tripp we've all done this. I have definitely done this myself. Think about when you have belonged with somebody around pain when you have belonged with somebody around maybe complaining about something right. That's what you have in common. So you get together and you complain about stuff. So you belong with each other. I want people to start looking at how we create belonging around things that are not actually empowering. So start to look at how do I connect with others around what topics are they expansive and positive and growth oriented or are they contracting and negative and do I feel sort of drained and discouraged afterwards because I want us to start to notice that we can shift that once again. What's the story. Basic reframing. What's the story we're telling ourselves. How does it make us feel. How would we like to feel. What's the story that we would need to change there. So in reframing I want us to start to notice daily as leaders one of our clients will give me an example.   Christine: [00:36:44] One of our clients they they had a really bad quarter who really and they're a public company. So they got smacked by the stock market really bad quarter. Everyone's all freaked out and the CEO gathers every together and says Hey everybody. What an educational quarter we just had. So it's not like gloom and doom. Layoffs are coming blah blah blah. No. Wow what an educational quarter we just had. We learned three key things. We learned that we had lost touch with our customers. They want upgrades to our product more often. We have learned that we have competition that we didn't take very seriously. They're nipping at our heels. We need to innovate faster. We need to increase our expand our product lines. And we learned actually that we have a handful of advocates that we've been ignoring. So in this next quarter we're going to tackle those three areas. We're going to get back on top. How great that we learned these lessons. And yeah it was painful but we got him we got him. Now let's take this next quarter and Rocket. Susie Q is going to own this initiative. Bob's going to own that initiative. Juan is going to own that initiative. Boom everybody knows what team they're on. Let's rocket instead of Oh my God it's a scary bad quarter. We're gonna do layoffs we suck and get.   Tripp: [00:38:08] This is actually a good segue way into kind of my next question which is kind of the purpose of this podcast is I come from a background of systems thinking which I know you're familiar with because I read where you talked about Peter Senge he and why you probably your mission vision and values just together.   Tripp: [00:38:28] And so so one of the things that that is part of actually my method which I call the 95 method is mostly about having method which can be so so in other words if I've got so far as I'm I to you talk you go for these things for growth for innovation there is this mindset that needs that you need to have but when you have that mindset you still need a method correct. I mean in order to.   Christine: [00:39:00] Oh yeah.   Tripp: [00:39:01] So. So from a method standpoint I do a podcast with a gentleman by the name of Doug Hawes worked with Disney and Procter and Gamble and Nike and and companies similar to you actually.   Tripp: [00:39:15] But he just focuses on innovation. He's the he's the big idea guy and an end-to-end system for. For doing it. And you know as I hear you talk. Lot of things I think I'm trying to get to is because I'm so method oriented and you play a method for kind of the brain is how how do we design in some of the stuff to build a brain friendly organization. How how how do y. Yeah you did so so that it's in need into the way that you've got your company designed.   Christine: [00:39:51] Ok well I have to tell you it doesn't happen overnight. And what we do when we do our leadership acceleration program is it's for one day workshops eight webinars. Thirty micro learnings which are a little short baby videos that people share with their teams and it takes about a year and a half. Mm hmm. And then the culture is absolutely transformed and I have to go forward before you know the outliers. Yeah we have had a few enormous companies where it took two and half to three years because it was enormous and we were transforming thousands and thousands of people.   Tripp: [00:40:25] But you still have the mindset began that that I heard and one of your videos I believe. Yeah. You talk about you know sometimes we just go in an organization will start with a team just a game. Yeah. So you see you're kind of breaking you're breaking down the elephant and if I get to you the whole elephant I go to it one by the time. So you're still taking the approach of let's start with an area or something like.   Christine: [00:40:47] Yeah because you've gotta it is sometimes it's too big to eat the elephant right. And so a client will come to us and they'll say OK help us with this you know group leaders and we'll start to see positive change and then everybody else would go Hey what's going on over there. How come you guys are knocking it out of the park and nobody else is you know let's figure this out let's do this. So what matters is that we we take this wherever people are receptive and we start to build a groundswell. So bottom up can often work better than top down you know because if it's top down at a huge organization. So when Procter and Gamble brought us then they had us work on their Latin American sales division. Great. I can get my arms around that. No problem you know. And we taught them a bunch of tools for connecting more deeply with our clients. We talked about safety belonging mattering for the client but we also taught them about Meta programs you know how do we step into the shoes of our client and actually feel and and understand the experience our client has having so we can message to them more effectively so we can connect with them more effectively so we can build trust much more quickly so we can actually have a profound meaningful connection instead of just you know we don't want a one off sale who wants that. You know we want a profound meaningful connection with our clients.   Tripp: [00:42:11] Ok so from your standpoint it's it's a it's kind of these classes that you have in order to to kind of build the brain friendly organization because you are in essence taking them right from where they are today. Yeah I'm trying to say OK. Because that what applies over here to Procter and Gamble isn't going to necessarily apply to Nike because they have different systems if you will. So you have to take them kind of. From that spot.   Christine: [00:42:42] Well we'd just Sec. They have but they have humans. Yeah. So we always look at what the business challenges and you know like the top three business challenges. That's where we know where to start. Okay. We're gonna start with optimal team stuff that optimal teams tools. Oh we're gonna start with the influence tools over here. So we look at what the what the greatest opportunities or challenges are at the company. And that's the tools that with that we start with you know and sometimes they just want transformation in that one area so they'll only get the tools in that area and that will be enough you know or they'll come back to us a year later hey you know we're ready for for some more tools. The way that these really get ingrained and this is why we have the workshops then the webinars in between the workshops and then the micro learnings so everybody in the company can watch a five to 10 minute video for each of the tools and learn that you know there are 30 to micro learnings you know the average bear in the company if they want to learn these tools they can't you know it's a scalable way to do it. And you know it can also be a great tribal thing where people come together in the lunch room and they watch one of the videos and they practice with the tools and then we give our clients all of the graphics and you'll walk through the halls of some of our clients and you'll see or at least in the meeting rooms you'll see our key infographics describing the Outcome Frame or myelin Asian or maneuvers of consciousness or reframing or cultural game plan or safety blocking mattering. You know you'll see our different diagrams. The emotion will you'll see better programs you'll see these these graphics so that people remember to use the tools because it's really helpful to have them in our environment.   Tripp: [00:44:22] All right very good. Let's now get a kind of interim phase here and we call it kind of the hot potato phase which is fitting. So so I am deeply embedded in the philosophy of W. Edwards Deming which we kind of emailed back and forth a little bit about and sectors I wrote some things down and it just there. There are things I'd be curious what your perspective is on. And the first one of that I want to talk about with regards to Deming philosophy is this concept of drive out fear. So one of his 14 points was drive out fear and you write about this in Power Your Tribes which is you know there's a lack of trust in in order to drive out that fear. Can you come in a little bit about how you drive fear out of organizations.   Christine: [00:45:13] Yes and fear. I find that many leaders you know are scaring their people into mediocrity. And we're scaring them and sending them into critter state. Not intentionally but we're scaring them with incomplete information with not making it safe to experiment or fail. Right. Public beheadings. We're creating fear by not having open clear communication having conflict avoidance is a great way to create fear. Having unrealistic perpetually unrealistic deadlines where people just can't do that much work in that short of time. Changing directives. Oh no we're not doing that anymore. We're doing this well nobody told me and I'd been doing that for two months. So we create fear and a lot of ways. But it primarily boils down to communication which is why that's our first corporate value. You know our company if we have if if human beings have clear explicit communication. In my experience you can get through anything. Okay.   Tripp: [00:46:26] All right. Yeah. I like that and obviously there's a ton of stuff in here about how to mitigate that fear in your book. The second one or another one because I got many but it would just get through a few of these. But there is the mindset of that we're all taught in the Deming philosophy ninety four a five percent of performance comes down to the system that you work in and one of the things I had trouble with early on is this kind of. There seems to be there's a component of neuroscience it's very individual the focus is on the individual. They're the problem they're the they're the focus of it as opposed to the system.   Tripp: [00:47:08] Now the system includes the individual. You kind of see where I'm going with this question. So. So I'm trying to reconcile. Yeah. He's from a Deming philosophy standpoint as Deming wrong because I'm open to that you know from a perspective of could have we learned enough to say it really is the individual and not the system and there are there. There's a lot more to that obviously to unpack but I'm not gonna do I just kind of want to hear what your initial reaction is to that.   Christine: [00:47:37] Yeah well but the individual is existing within a system.   Tripp: [00:47:41] True. yes.   Christine: [00:47:43] And that system is affecting the individuals. So so if we look at I mean for us we use six logical levels of change and that's sort of the environment the system that's happening in an organization. And if we look at the symptoms that are occurring we can understand where to change the system got it. So you know the environment physical emotional you know mental space I walked into a company a while ago it was an open floor plan and you just you walked in there and I was I was uncomfortable even breathing. It's like people were so uptight about being absolutely silent. And I was like This is ridiculous. Human beings aren't absolutely silent. You know and people were emailing each other and of just reaching over and talking to each other. It was e-mailing people like right next door to them. So you know there was just kind of this tense weird environment and you can have an open floor plan and do it really well. And so environment behavior what we do a person's or a company's values really define our behavior. That's why it's important up good values that people understand because it's the code of conduct or company values capability. Those are skills our tools are abilities you know how are our capabilities growing by being part of this system. Beliefs decisions you know meaning that we make about things outside of us. They are. It is you know the world is that the market is our customers our identity the decisions that we make about ourself right the meaning that we make about ourself. I am powerful I am valued I am capable I am safe I belong I matter. And then core you know the most sacred thing to the company and you know it's not profits. The most sacred thing to the company is like how that company is making a difference on this planet. Like why should we bother working there.   Tripp: [00:49:38] That's good. No I think that as I've helped organizations you know write Mission Vision Values nowadays. There are three components that I believe that it has to have. And one of them I just added in the last probably eight years which is the first one is customer some concept of customer some concept of innovation because of the rapid pace of change that we're facing in disruption that we face today. And then the third one is the one that you just talked about which is the greater good. How do we get you know how do how do how do we tap into that now. What do you think as you were talking through that kind of made a note and maybe you can help me with a a name for this. You know there's a say in in your your talk about the system I'm thinking in terms of maybe it's more because I have an engineering type of mindset brain which is the mechanical methods the Six Sigma the statistics you know those types of things versus the emotional system. And I you know that kind of you kind of added that by virtue of what I read while I was listening to you and there's probably a better name than mechanical but I'm just trying to come up with some type of label but that you're talking about that if we're going to affect 95 percent of the performance of a system we have to also account for the emotional system.   Christine: [00:51:01] Yeah. And here's the thing. I'm all for measurement yay measurement. But if we don't enroll and engage people they aren't going to use the measurement type systems.   Tripp: [00:51:14] Agreed. Yeah.   Christine: [00:51:15] They'll mock them. They'll skip them et cetera. And they will be all for naught.   Tripp: [00:51:21] So here here's another one that I wrote down that is just you know it's upsetting but is layoffs.   Tripp: [00:51:33] And you talked about in one of your videos you talked about exile and and people being exiled from there you know from organizations or from their countries. Right. That was the worst thing that could happen to you. And now I have this series of layoffs and we're creating did we have this culture now we're going to lay off this this person one of the things that Dr. Deming talked a lot about is you know there are reasons for. Companies have to lay off if you're in the financial dire straits and it's either sink or swim. I get it.   Christine: [00:52:04] You got to do it I guess.   Tripp: [00:52:05] I think where people have difficulty today is they see the dividend go up and oh I was laid off because they were able to build a new building or to raise their dividend or you know do something that a point. And Dr. Deming was a big advocate of before you do layoffs. What's first of all talk about did the leadership take a 10 percent cut in their pay.   Tripp: [00:52:28] You know sometimes where you're having an actual leadership you know what I'm saying that hey oh well we just had to do it and we just. And there seems to be this unemotional or this you know method and having been an executive and had to lay off people I can tell you it's it's very emotional. Oh yes. Not only to you. For you know why you're doing it but. And you're basically giving the marching orders right to took that you're going at the last people but the only reason to be is because you know find out that the CEO wants a new helicopter or once a week or something like that.   Tripp: [00:53:00] I think that's where we're you know as a culture or as a society we're starting to to push back on those types of things. What are your thoughts how do how do you write are you put into situations like that or do you then you get to the point where you're so in the growth and navigating growth and all those types of modes that you don't really come up against this.   Christine: [00:53:24] Oh no we come. We come up against layoffs we come up against terminations you know for non-performance you know or God forbid you know for epic cause you know I mean these are humans right. With humans you get the full spectrum of experience. If there are layoffs we have to have. We have to have. We have to have an explanation that is fair and makes sense. And you know sometimes a division is closed you know a product line is discontinued you know et cetera. But here's the thing when we lay people off we have to have a clear communication about it that actually makes sense. But then we also have to honor their contributions to the firm. You know so you know we're discounting continuing such and such product line. We haven't been able to find an internal job for Joe. So you know Joe Joe and his team you know will we'll be let go and we want to thank them for all the contributions that they made. And we're going to celebrate those contributions are going to do all that we can to outplace them to help them find their next adventure and we're gonna help them with their resumé or whatever you know. But yeah I mean just this is business. So I want to make sure that.   Christine: [00:54:37] We're balancing it's business and we have to run a a profitable healthy business that makes a difference in the world. And that does sometimes mean that people have to be let go for a variety of reasons. You're not going to have a culture with high employee retention and high employee engagement. If you're doing random layoffs that don't have stories that make sense.   Tripp: [00:55:05] Good answer. I'm going to ask one more question then I'll get to my last question. Great which is around who does and rewards one of the things that Dr. Deming railed against was the concept of quotas versus rewards. And as we've seen like with Wells Fargo and a number of other companies over the years Sears I think with their automotive repair business too. But you don't have to look far too tough to find bad behavior with regards to how those drive certain behaviors within organizations. How do you we know rewards people want rewards. Right yeah. I I've I've read in your book where you've talked about the emotional is greater than than the reward that you get. And and people are more involved with winning career path and public recognition that then rewards. But just that this this concept that you know especially in the US to be win because of Deming came back to the U.S. from Japan it's basically boy rewards are killing us here. You know there people are doing dysfunctional things to hit their quarterly goals so that their price will go up. Those types of things how do you how do you what are your thoughts on that.   Christine: [00:56:20] So I do believe in rewards and consequences and consequences just you know if you drop the ball there will be a consequence there won't be a punishment there won't be a shaming you know but there will be a hey you know Are you OK you know and walking through we have four questions that we walk people through. If somebody you know has an accountability challenge and they drop the ball. But but I find you know one of the greatest problems with quotas is that people don't provide what these sales people for example truly need in order to meet their quota or worst case scenario they actually cap it. You can only make so much commission which is insane because if you have a salesperson that wants to sell like crazy let them you know why would you ever want to mess that up. So I think we like to use needle movers that the minimum acceptable performance because you have to tell people what you expect them to perform you know where how you expect them to perform the minimum acceptable. Rawlence The target is what you want them to hit. The mind blower is wow you know if if we can hit this number that's really amazing at NYU. Emily Balcetis actually did some research at NYU where she also used three levels of goals if you will.   Christine: [00:57:34] She called it something like easy moderate and impossible. I don't like the word impossible because I don't think that it's actually Tripp. But what she found was the systolic blood pressure which is our our readiness to act was so so on. Easy OK high on moderate on the middle one that we would call target and then a little bit lower on the one that she called impossible. So what does this mean. This means that our focus and our readiness to act works is stronger when we actually have three goals three levels of a given goal barely acceptable. What we really want and will if we knock it out of the park. Because when you have this you're going to get the what we really want. One of the middle but goals are often set in a binary way achieve this you know or you're in trouble. And the brain doesn't like that the brain can actually we perceive goals as spatial as psychological as physical. The way the brain deals with goals. So when we have these three levels we can actually move. If you look at what's happening with people who use these three levels we actually move the perception of that goal closer it feels easier and we can imagine achieving it more effectively.   Tripp: [00:58:51] Okay. And just that just to come in I know Dr. Deming comment with regards to quotas what is our targets even is, "By what method?" So you know and I think that's you we're getting there. There's probably a longer conversation associated with that but that because that's guess that's a good start. So my last question to you Christine is this Is there anything that you during the course of our conversation that you'd like to make some clarification of. Or is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I would have more.   Christine: [00:59:22] Good for now. Ok. But the executive summary is leadership is a privilege it is our great good fortune as leaders to have amazing people to work with so please invest in your people look at their emotional experience help them. The better emotional experience so they can give you the performance that you want. Everybody wins.   Tripp: [00:59:43] Fascinating stuff. Please get Christine Comaford's latest book Power Your Tribe. We appreciate you being a guest on Mind Your Noodles.   Christine: [00:59:53] Thank you. And if you guys want to get our regular tools that we send out monthly go to work with s t i. Dot com and you'll get little goodies from us every month. Work with SETI dot com.   Tripp: [01:00:08] Very good and we'll put that in the show notes also. Thank you again Christine.   Christine: [01:00:11] Thank you.   Tripp: [01:00:12] Bye bye.  

[fusion_builder_container hundred_percent="no" equal_height_columns="no" menu_anchor="" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" id="" background_color="" background_image="" background_position="center center" background_repeat="no-repeat" fade="no" background_parallax="none" parallax_speed="0.3" video_mp4="" video_webm="" video_ogv="" video_url="" video_aspect_ratio="16:9" video_loop="yes" video_mute="yes" overlay_color="" video_preview_image="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" padding_top="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" padding_right=""][fusion_builder_row][fusion_builder_column type="1_1" layout="1_1" background_position="left top" background_color="" border_size="" border_color="" border_style="solid" border_position="all" spacing="yes" background_image="" background_repeat="no-repeat" padding_top="" padding_right="" padding_bottom="" padding_left="" margin_top="0px" margin_bottom="0px" class="" id="" animation_type="" animation_speed="0.3" animation_direction="left" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" center_content="no" last="no" min_height="" hover_type="none" link=""][fusion_text] Watch the live interview below [/fusion_text][fusion_youtube id="https://youtu.be/ETQuFR4pf5M" alignment="center" width="" height="" autoplay="false" api_params="&rel=0" hide_on_mobile="small-visibility,medium-visibility,large-visibility" class="" /][fusion_text] P026 Transcription (was completed by automated process. Please ignore any speech-to-text errors) [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Beatty Carmichael and welcome to another session of get sellers calling you a real estate podcast and I'm excited today because I get to interview just an amazing friend of mine a friend who's been with friends since 2012. Actually one of our very first clients and that's Stuart Sutton out of Austin Texas area so student Harry Stuart. How are you doing. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me today. Well I'm excited to have you because I used to pick your brains many years ago if you recall we did mastermind conference calls and I learned more about marketing for real estate agents than I ever could have. And you just been a wealth of knowledge there. [00:00:49] Well that's very nice of you I learned a tremendous amount from me too. [00:00:52] But we have definitely enjoyed working together. I just kind of set the stage. I know you don't brag about yourself so let me brag about you so people understand who it is I'm interviewing. You've been in business for a few years. Is that correct. Just started. Just started. How many years ago. Already for about thirty four years ago. And you are a Diamond Club member and a is at masters. Why were those two levels. [00:01:24] Well with Remax I'm going to get RE MAX for I just hit seven years. OK. I do have the lifetime achievement award with the chairman's job is an annual award which means you have to make over 500 thousand in the Diamond Club is the club you have to make over million a year. So yes I mean in each of those. [00:01:46] Very good. And and when you and I met we the thing that impressed me so much. [00:01:52] One of many is at the time you were doing between 80 and 100 transactions a year all personal production. And you were asked you know how many hours a week do you work. And you said between 35 and 40 hours. Do you remember that day. Yes sir. And it blew me away that you could have that type of volume on those few hours. And is that part that I really want to talk about on this call and just to understand what you do now. I know things have changed a little bit. So kind of give me an idea of where things are now if you don't mind. [00:02:30] Well we're just plugging away. I've narrowed down the number of transactions I do in my goal when I when I came with Remax was very straightforward and that was I want to do fewer transactions but I don't want any less income. So I had had a big team and we've done hundreds of deals and and all that. And I just was changing the way that I approach the business. So I now manage each of my clients myself by each of my team members manages each of their clients themselves. We do have staff that helps us but I have narrowed down from doing as you said 80 to 100 at that time and actually the year before I met you I've done 111 sales. Just personally now when you add my team in the volume is pretty impressive. But as a team we don't nobody knows what we do in the way of volume because each of my agents keeps their own. I let them keep their production for themselves. And unless you know who all my team members are a contract that nobody really knows what our volume is except from our Remax broker when we do that it's just it's real simple. I've been there done that with the big team in big volume and I want my agents to really get all the accolades that they worked so hard to get. So it's not just the you know I'm selfless I'd love to have you know all that production under my name but it's time for them to to you know they're just so proud when they go over a certain landmark and have a certain level of production I've got six agents that work for me and for make very good incomes very good incomes. [00:04:03] We know that integrity I have to. [00:04:06] So for the folks listening when we first got started we do a unique thing with with our services over at Master grammar and in identifying people who respond to a postcard. And I remember one of your friends that you helped you with marketing and then a coach. I think for many years he came out with something that you thought he kind of was trying to knock us off and you got so upset with him. I mean you were telling me you weren't talking to him on that and I had to hold you back but your integrity of the fact that someone would possibly take something you had shared and then turn around and use it you know and try to duplicate something I don't know if you recall that but. But when you were talking about your agents and letting them keep their own production and so it shows off for their record and share years I just think that you know that's what makes you so special in my eyes. Is it just that level of integrity. Well thank you that's not for me to say. So let's hope this is real quick. So you've got a you've got a thriving business and you've got a well honed machine. In terms of how you do it. Tell me where you generate money because I know you're talking about different different income streams. So can you kind of give me a breakdown right. [00:05:31] In Europe we've really gotten it down to a general. We've got it down to a science. But the processes that we take are consistent. It's not exciting but consistency means a lot. And I'm really trying to get that through to each of my agents and we have I say we. Want when I say we I'm talking about me and my staff and in my mind it's really kind of try to model what I do. But I have four areas of income. It all comes from marketing. I've got a farm area. I have a niche which is an expanded farm area meaning a specialization in a type of property. And I've got my past clients and customers. And then I've got my online market. So those are my excuse me those are my four sources of income. My agents really try to model that in in in growing their businesses. They're doing a great job I said for the six had really high incomes well a fifth one just hit a milestone. He did more business in the last two months and most able to do in two years so. Wow. Got it for him. [00:06:38] So if you were to take those four income streams and kind of rank them how would you write them from top to best production down lowest production. [00:06:48] So the top two without question has clients and customers and that should be everybody's first source but my niche is extremely lucrative so there are years when I'll make more money from my niche than I do from my past clients and customers. In an area of specialization. One of my agents for example specializes in townhomes. Another one specializes in homes with views. [00:07:11] I specialize in homes on an acre or more and so the members of that particular population see me as someone who has an expertise that they need. We don't just want them to think well you know it'd be nice if we had that. We want to create a need. So because of my expertise in that arena sellers call me and quite often I'm the only one I talk to. [00:07:38] Very interesting so talk to me in terms of what you do in marketing. If you were to do do something different for your personal list and your your one acre plus. [00:07:47] And if so what would you do. [00:07:49] Yes well so I'm going to I don't know going to break down the niche in the farm because really they're very similar but the niche is just more lucrative unless you have a farm that has twenty five hundred five thousand houses and you can just keep growing it. But my niche you can just keep growing. So I've got an agent in another part of town that I'm not going to grab down there but he takes care of all the one acre plus clients in that part of town. So there are really three areas of marketing in a niche or a farm number one is the general population of that niche right. In other words the areas that you want to work the locations et cetera. The second is what I call a targeted and guess who needs to sell their home on acreage probably more than anybody else. When that time comes. Seniors. So I target people who have an exemption of 65 or more a tax exemption. And we market to them when they need to sell their home on it. Could you give us a call. The third is expires. Anyone whose home has expired in the last several years but they've never listed again. We market two very strongly and that's a very powerful database. So those are the three. Now if you're talking about a farm you have three different ones. You've got the general farm then you've got the expired. Same thing. And I'm going to tell you how powerful this is maybe in stopped me if you want me to quit rambling you want to ask a question but let me tell you a powerful. I've got a farm with eight hundred and ninety three people and I have 74 people who have expired in the last three years and never we listed out as more people from this group of 74 than the rest of the eight ninety three. Really. Yes because differently to them than we do the rest of the farm. [00:09:42] So like how do you market differently because most of the times when you're marketing to expire says you're on the phone and calling them as soon as they expire and you try to drop by and you're doing something different. [00:09:56] You don't need to do that with these because here's the thing. If I'm marketing to the farm all eight hundred and ninety three people almost people who expire are getting that mailing. Right. But then I'm marketing to the 74. In addition in sending marketing pieces that are poignant to somebody who's had their home inspired. That makes sense. [00:10:20] It does. But let's elaborate a little bit more because I think this goes into. [00:10:24] You were talking about when connect two very divergent dots years back you were doing a lot of postcard mailings and then you understood and learned marketing. And it turned your business around here you're talking about doing something different for those in. But I have an idea that the concept between both of these is a same concept. [00:10:47] Can you take it give an example to the general farm area. I may send a marketing piece that compels a response to go to a landing page to learn about something like my new level of service to an expired. They're going to receive a postcard specifically about a home that says this home was listed with another agent for six months and then Stuart listed it and sold it in eight days. So the very best marketing I can do for expired is to show them success with somebody that was in their exact situation. [00:11:22] That makes sense so you're making it very specific to them. [00:11:28] So you're marketing to the entire farm and then these that are experts you're sending additional marketing pieces. But I guess most of these are saying this home was on the market for all these days or months and then I sold it. And so they're constantly saying that you were successful. In the same environment that they were a failure that the previous right. [00:11:50] That's right. And then the third area of a farm is out of town owners in some farms have a lot more of them printed on the price range and all that. But so we sent unique marketing pieces to people who don't live in the house they own in the farm area. So you've got the general farm population expired in the farm and they had a town owners in the farm. And those are three specific marketing databases Wow. [00:12:21] So you're kind of the word that comes to mind is pass and you're really passing that market and then very specifically targeting them for their unique needs. [00:12:34] Right. For example if you if you owned a rent house in my farm you'd get a mailing that said hey if you decide to sell your rent house in this area you need to make sure you qualify. And so if you're in out of town owner you're going to receive a card that speaks to you. And I actually offer a guarantee to you because what is the problem that out of town owners have. Well they don't know their houses are vacant they don't know what's going on with it. Well we guarantee that we're going to check in every week and send you a check list showing hey all the lights are working. The doors are locking the windows are more thermostats. We have a whole checklist. So we're going to we have a guarantee that we're going to do that for you every single week that your home is on the market with us. And if we miss any single week or Market Commission at 100 bucks. [00:13:23] Wow. So now as I'm listening you go through this the thought that hits me that may be hitting some other folks is this is a lot of work. I mean it's not just you know go to this Web site a peer upload it just sell photo send it out and then go about your way over here you're actually spending time creating these pieces. [00:13:44] Yes sir. Yes sir. Now once we have a good marketing piece in place blog company we can just adapt and edit and make some changes. Yes OK. You know there's a lot of work in setting up any cash flow system any income stream. There's a lot of work and get this set up. Maintenance becomes a different story. And that's why I can work 35 to 40 hours a week because I'm maintaining several systems that I've had in place for years. [00:14:09] That makes sense I was going to ask you that kind of leading the follow up question to that leading question. Yes it takes a lot of work. My question was going to ask does it make a lot of money. [00:14:19] Well you know what I I'm very blessed to be one of those guys I decided. You remember the book that came out about how to. Be a Millionaire in your underwear. You remember that book. [00:14:29] I remember something like that. Yes. [00:14:31] And that might not be the exact power. I'm blessed to be one of those guys that can sit at home in work literally wearing shorts and flip flops until it's time for an appointment. Then I'll get up and put on a suit. Yes I can do that and I'm very blessed to be in the position where I can work on my schedule on my terms and make a very nice income. [00:14:53] All right so let's talk on because one dig a little bit deeper in if you don't mind the concept of marketing OK. [00:15:03] You learned something from at one point in time that when you applied it to your existing mailings it totally turned everything around. And and that's the same stuff that you're applying right now. Can you help those who are listening to kind of understand marketing at a really simple level so that those people who say this is a lot of work. I don't know even where to begin in kind of give them a starting point. Does that make sense why I'm asking. [00:15:28] Yeah it does and the overall most simple basic marketing world is find out what people want and need. Make it easy for them to get. And the biggest thing that anyone ever taught me. You may. You did meet Randy Smith was really a marketing mentor. Brilliant marketer took all the marketing rules outside of real estate and brought them into real estate. And that's what I try to teach my agents to do. But it's very straightforward. Quit selling and start solving. So what is the problem that the consumer has and how can you solve it. And the easiest example of that ever is Domino's Pizza they were the first ones to guarantee delivery and a certain amount of time because they solved the problem what were their consumers BIGGEST PROBLEM. WELL DIDN'T GET THROWN type atomic out there. It was cold and without it the worst thing is it got there late. It was cold and they still had to pay for it. So what was their marketing like. It was. It's fast it's hot or it's free. Remember that. [00:16:40] I do. I do a date. [00:16:42] Same thing in real estate. You're an out of town owner. Your biggest problem is hate. I don't know what's going on with my house I don't know. I mean we have some either myself or my assistant. We'll check on your vacant house every single week and we guarantee to do that. So we've solved a problem that every agent could solve but nobody else has put it into words. Does that make sense. [00:17:04] Yeah it does give me a couple other examples so that those listening can kind of grasp and start to apply in their own situation where they can where they can use it. [00:17:16] So what's a problem for a home seller who's just thinking about selling a home. They're not quite sure OK what can I get this call all the time and I'm sure a lot of other agents do as well. And that's what do we do to get our house ready. Where should we spend our time and money. Well we have a program where we actually provide a stager an inspector handyman a painter a window washer at our expense to get your home ready for the market. So now instead of well what do we do. [00:17:45] What do we do how do we do it. Who do we call. What what's it going to cost. We've solved that for you so instead of just selling selling selling we're solving solving solving so the more problems we solve for you the more chance you're going to. [00:18:00] Very interesting. [00:18:01] What are some other examples that you can give me. [00:18:07] Well I've just had one situation where if this hasn't been the market for this was the most recent. That's why I'm bringing it up for nearly a year with three other agents. They call this obvious now if one of our marketing pieces I went out and the house was vacant carpet in the master was wavy. I've just paid a carpet stretcher to come in and stretch it. I carpet cleaners to clean it. The patio was extended. Very nice big but it was all stained. I had a handyman coming in power watch it had a crew come in and clean the house because it was bacon. Kind of you know you start to see bugs and cock and other agents have had this home on the market in this condition. We sold in sixteen days. So basically what we're doing is stepping in that owner's out of town. You know how hard it is to coordinate that type of thing. You know it's done and make sure they're paid. We took care of all that. We paid all we coordinated them. We scheduled them to put the house in condition to show. I mean to sell destiny. [00:19:10] So if you and so if you take all the things you do in terms of marketing what you know some people running Facebook ads and some people running getting you know they're there doing email blast and all kinds of things. When you say marketing are you talking about all these things are you talking about something down this channel or that includes all those postcards and mailings. [00:19:37] I still believe very strongly in mailings and in a lot of my income comes from maintenance. I've just got a mailing. This is I don't know if you only take the time and all that but literally a couple months ago from a little company that made me feel like mailings work because Google sent me a postcard. Wow that's very hard trying to get me to use Google AdWords. [00:20:03] A lot of people send in postcards I think and they work they they must I know we send a lot of postcards and they do work so well let's shift gears a little bit and I want to talk about balance in your life because one of the things that when you and I had first started talking you were sharing and this is a first in 2012 2013. You spent a lot of time with your family as a realtor and and a lot of there's a lot of struggle especially you know everyone straight commission and fighting for the next deal. And so the idea of being available almost like 24/7. Yeah. We'll ask an agent know hey how is your weekend they look at me and go what's a weekend. Okay talk to me in terms about how you bring balance to your life as a real estate agent. [00:20:53] That's that's a great question. It truly is a challenge for most people in this business. It's a matter of fact a friend of my son was getting into real estate or is getting into real estate and he asked if I'd have lunch with them and they were interviewing. And just having lunch with a few top agents around our market and they asked me. OK so tell us about your schedule and you know weekends and evenings and I said well at work we can tell you said really. So what about your phone you always interested. Well if I'm with my family I do not answer my phone because I want my family and my kids to know you're more important than anything else that's going on here. Now my family understands I'm in the real estate business. So even when we're on vacation I'll set a time of the day when I return calls. But if we're out and they said you know what. We just talked to another agent she said she was in Paris France not Texas. Well I'll be with her family. She got a call. She took it. He goes I'm in real estate I take my call. I just feel differently about it. So I do not as quick work on Sundays. Many many many years ago when my first son was born I quit work in 30 days and let my wife have a whole day off and spend it with him and we took that through both sons and it it's just it's just too important. Guess what. I've never lost any business that I know of because I've put my family as a priority. [00:22:21] Wow. [00:22:22] So there are two things running through my mind on this one is what's the motivation to be that determined that deliberate. And number two the other thing running through my mind is the risk because you know you're potentially losing business. So help me understand those two things that makes sense. [00:22:45] It does. And I'm going to be kind of straightforward and blunt place. I believe that there are two words to start with that that are really really important and one is fear and one's faith. And I have faith that my father in heaven is going to provide. And I don't fear that I'm not going to get business because my faith overrides that fear and I'm not. Believe me I'm not always successful that because fear can certainly creep in. But this is a business where if you don't depend on faith it's going to be a much more difficult road to hoe. So I've always depended on the fact that my father's been blessed us our family and that if I go about doing my business in a way that I believe is is pleasing to him then we're not going to have to have that fear. [00:23:38] That makes a lot of sense. We we do a lot that sells on our own as you know. [00:23:44] Talk to me a little bit more than about your faith and really kind of how it drives your business or maybe how how your faith drives you in your business. Does that make you kind of talk a bit more on that. [00:23:57] No I would say it's the real estate business is it is a challenging one. And I really preach to my agents that you know faith is is really really important as far as pay if you do what you're supposed to do. You can't be afraid that you're going to fail at it. So that that step by step faith over fear is something that we're always working on. [00:24:23] But the way we handle our business is is not I know this going to sound trite but it's not money driven. Do I have financial goals. Absolutely. Do I have financial obligations. Absolutely. [00:24:38] But I've got a song on my wall over here that says the more you serve others the more successful you will be. [00:24:47] And I just believe that in my heart. So we treat each situation in a unique way that has to do with that client. And we don't ever. My team and I for example we collect money we contribute our own money to make house payments for people in need. You know a lot of people you know hit a time in their lives when they need a helping hand. And we don't. We've had many people want to help give publicity to us for that. And we've always refused. That's just a part of something we feel like we should do. So as a teen we call it our house payment program. Once a lot to have someone asked me to come do some training. What. What do you charge. And I'll say it was instead of me charging a fee you in your office contribute to our house payment program. [00:25:40] Now give a little pitch about what it is and tell me about some of the people that we've helped. We helped a fireman a year before last who had a devastating accident and couldn't work for some time. And yes he had some some income come in from you know disability and all that but it didn't really cover all their bills so we helped make their house. We had a family grandparents who lost their children in a car wreck and took in their five grandchildren. And you talk about financial struggles. We've stepped in and helped them make house payments. So those are the kind of things that we we feel like or part of what we need to be doing. As you know it's part of our business. [00:26:25] That's really neat. [00:26:26] You know the whole idea of trusting in giving is it resonates really with me a lot because you know our business over the years we've been in business for 20 to two years I think it is now and we've seen some highs and we've seen some lows and even in the lows I advised it out. I'll tell you this story because this is years back so I can't take really any credit but we at that time we gave a real high percentage of of every profit every dollar we made whatever I took out and whatever the company made is profit. And every month we would give it into ministry and we had this client that was 70 percent of our volume and about one hundred and some odd percent of our profits and they were scheduled to leave about three four months from now. It was a term contract. And so we kept giving and you know storing nothing up. Now it's talking to a friend of mine who's a another Christian businessman and his name is building said Betty I believe in trusting God but I've never put myself in a position where I had to. And but you know this whole this whole lifestyle of you taking the day off or doing these things you know helping other people out and just really trusting your fate to your faith in the Lord. [00:27:57] I just think it's it's it's it's freeing isn't it it makes all the difference it makes doing this business of pleasure it really does. And not being tied to that commission is is everything. And I may have shared this one with you I had a client you know I've had this happen several times over the years but one I think I shared with you I had a client that the Commission on their house was just shot fourteen thousand dollars like thirteen thousand nine hundred. And they were in having some difficult financial struggles. And when we got to the closing after their escrow because yes we should know the pay off and they told me what the payoff was and when it got to it they did not share with me that they were behind payments. [00:28:45] So after paying off their loan that was thirteen hundred and twenty seven dollars left. Now they have paid my commission they have had to come out of pocket twelve thousand plus I didn't have it so I said we're fine. No I'm not depending on this commission you know to make my house payment and I believe that you guys can go in close I believe that you should have this burden lifted from you and in the you know if I can ever help you again I'm I'm here to help and I can tell you a lot of people would think that you twelve grand you can I didn't give up twelve grand I didn't have twelve grand I helped somebody in a situation and I came out you know thirteen but to hit thirteen hundred dollars hit you know and they still for referred me business to this day so that's just the way I approach each of those commissions it's it's not money driven it's people and again am I. [00:29:52] Do I fall short of that. [00:29:53] Of course I do but it's nice to step back in and I pray every single day that God will put people in my path that I can serve on his behalf do you do anything else with your faith in how you engage with clients on an ongoing basis I know like when we bought our house you know our realtor really super lady loves the Lord and so you know we're at the kitchen table of the house that we now own and filling out the the offer and so she said hey let's just pray over this I'm thinking you know what a great way to do it how do you do you live it out in any way like that strategically it's not great with many clients over the years and I do have it I call it my pre listening package which has enough every single cell in it has a a page in it that basically espouses my faith and lets them know that we depend on God for all of our blessings and we put him first and that's in every marketing package that we send that I love that so you don't you obviously don't subscribe to the idea that he has your faith here and you have your work here and they need to be separated right. I'm not sure that's possible I don't think it is. One last question just saw as we're on this topic and there you may not have anything or you may not have anything that you care to share but you know a lot of times as a realtor or even just as a husband and a father you go through struggles and and there are times when you just have to. You fall on your knees and the Lord just really carries you through is there anything that stands out that you would like to share in terms of the impact of your relationship with Christ as you go through struggles absolutely no question that he has brought us through many difficult times. [00:32:01] I still remember many years ago when we were in danger of not being able to make our house payments. This was before we had kids. Not to say that it's been a cakewalk since and because it hadn't but I still remember Rebecca and I and I bless her. She is the most incredible prayer warrior. I still remember sitting at a table approaching midnight praying about whether we should get out and try to find no less smaller house and find a way to move bills aside and find a way to find a way to do all that. So as we as we prayed through that and continued to over time we just felt we knew what what what he wanted. And so we continued on the path that we were on in and we're just blessed with you know the relief of that art. I still remember back then going you know what. I don't know anybody that does this much business with real estate but I'm truly. Again it's not one of those. Oh well if you believe in God and Carville he'll bless you and give you a lot of money that's not what it was at all we were willing we went look at smaller houses and we went and looked at different ways to lower our last home. [00:33:23] We weren't leaving an exciting lifestyle by any means but we just hit. Been in some tough roll snake markets when interest rate 10 percent. I've been I've been in three crashes over my career but we just felt truly comfortable that we should you know stay on the path that we were on. So we did he blessed us. My business flourished in a time when you would never expect it in. A couple of years after that we had kids and just moved on down that line. But one of the best things that I remember is I asked my kids questions all Thompson. Come on. But I said if you were to say one thing about your mom and your dad that you remembered us for what would that be. And I shared what I remember my parents for in the thing that I I'm really just overwhelmingly touched by. [00:34:17] Is one of my sensitive you said you know you have an incredible work ethic but you do it for a reason and that reason is your family and God. [00:34:33] If that's the way he remembers me you know I'll be very happy. [00:34:38] What a legacy. What a legacy on that. [00:34:42] That's great. You know our children. They pick up more from what we do than what we say. Yeah. Let's talk on one more thing if you don't mind. [00:34:54] You've been married for how long thirty three years. [00:34:57] Thirty three years. And if I'm approaching an area let me know and we can edit this part out but I want to talk in terms of a marriage that's founded on Christ. And can you talk anything on that. You know how's your relationship and and what do you consider kind of the core reasons for the relationship being as it is wow you aren't getting big. [00:35:26] You know it's it's incredibly comforting to know that my wife's faith is is so strong in that she doesn't necessarily depend on me for her happiness and gratification. She depends on our Lord and in the same way with me. We we both know that our marriage is is. I mean it's wonderful. Now have we had some tough time yet. Absolutely I don't. Yes I really know of anybody money. But the bottom line is is we both know that supporting each other based on and our prayer is always that the decisions we make will be in our mortgage will and that's the decision we make for our kids. That's the decisions we make business decisions we make for each other and her faithfulness over the years it's just been an inspiration to me. [00:36:27] You know I I I stepped in here without really having much knowledge but I felt I was safe in that direction because I'm similar. [00:36:37] We're married a lot fewer years where I'm coming on our 26 anniversary on. But what's really interesting is our love for each other is so much stronger today than it was years back. There's never been a time we haven't been in love but it's gotten a lot stronger Yelp experience. [00:36:56] Absolutely. Absolutely no question about it. It does matter fact. We have been talking about that recently. You know we're empty nesters and you know wow I was afraid how it's going to come up with me. You know when the kids are gone. But we we've just grown closer and stronger as the years go by. [00:37:13] You know one of the things that someone taught me years back he said kind of a triangle put God at the top. [00:37:19] And then the two lines coming down is the husband and wife and as each husband and wife seeks and they get closer and closer together. So that's kind of what I attribute. And I have to tell you an interesting story. One of the members in our separate club that church is a he's a pastor. He came from pastoring his own church and now being an assistant pastor in our church and in his area of ministry as a pastor. A lot of challenges relating to divorce and moving into divorce. Now he's asking in this quiet house because I'm using this concept and I'm saying has there ever been a time that you recall anyone going through the process of divorce or considering divorce where one or both of those people had been consistently seeking the Lord and he said no he cannot recall and that I think has been the about bedrock for our relationship as I would imagine for years. [00:38:26] Very good. That's that's a good one thank you. [00:38:30] Well we kind of probably need to wrap up a little bit is there and we start on a real marketing side and excited now we're kind of mellow down and talking to about really the most important things in life. But is there anything that's been on your mind or anything you've thought about that you'd like to share before we wrap up anything that on any topic or anything. This is your chance to shine. [00:38:55] Well I can tell you that the more people like you that I'm able to work with who have a faith in a belief like mine the Better Business is. So being able to talk openly with you in I know I don't know how much people watching us know about you but if they've never heard you teach scripture you're an amazing teacher but they might have friends. My broker people on my team and people involved in my business be able to pray together vehicle to encourage each other to be able to you know share in challenges and in victories and give that glory to God rather than to ourselves. We understand that. I mean the guy that I've told you about just had a breakthrough with an incredible couple months and then couldn't himself or any of he feels and knows that it's it's a blessing. And he put in the work and God bless him with the results in total surround yourself with people that that really makes the real estate business very different and a more enjoyable career than if if you're not. [00:40:17] Yes it does. [00:40:18] And to work with people like you like mine makes my work all the more meaning that frequently I go you know what's the purpose of it. You know it's just money right now. Is there any eternal purpose and the Lord keeps reminding me. Yes but you need to be a full time minister secretly disguised as a business owner and you do a great job of that. Well I don't know. He's been spiking me a little bit saying you haven't done it the way I've asked you to. So we're working on that. Well Stuart I've really enjoyed visiting with you and thank you for sharing your time. And for those who are listening or watching if you like this please Subscribe or like us and they come back as we interview more people. So Stuart and have a great day and be blessed. [00:41:10] Thank you. You too. [/fusion_text][/fusion_builder_column][/fusion_builder_row][/fusion_builder_container]

EP004 - Senior Director of Special Projects at Carvana, John Hanger http://www.vehicle2.getspiffy.com Episode 4 is an interview with John Hanger, Senior Director of Special Projects at Carvana; recorded on March 26th, 2019. John and Scot discuss a variety of topics, including: John’s career path, including his trek from CEO of Car360 to being acquired by Carvana The origins of Carvana and its impressive performance in the used car retail space Exploring the Carvana customer experience, from buying online to vending machines and vehicle delivery Behind the scenes look at how Carvana continues to evolve for its customers and employees Carvana subverting expectations of buying, selling, or trading a car Growth of car subscription services and the impact on traditional ownership models Where connected cars, EVs, and AVs realistically fit into the near-future of the automotive industry Be sure to follow John on LinkedIn! Those interested in reading more about the topics we cover should check out The Banks Report, an online source for analysis in the automotive industry created by award-winning journalist Cliff Banks. If you enjoyed this episode, please write us a review on iTunes! The four pillars of Vehicle 2.0 are electrification, connectivity, autonomy, and changing ownership models. In the Vehicle 2.0 Podcast, we will look at the future of the auto industry through guest expert interviews, deep dives into specific topics, news coverage, and hot takes with instant analysis on what the latest breaking news means for today and in time to come. This episode was produced and sound engineered by Jackson Balling, and hosted by Scot Wingo.   Transcript: Scot: [00:51] Welcome to the Vehicle 2.0 Podcast. This is our fourth episode and it is being recorded Tuesday, March 26, 2019. So when we started the podcast, we said, let's put on the whiteboard some of the coolest companies in kind of driving innovation around what's going on around cars and the vehicle 2.0 framework, and one of the top companies on that list was Carvana. So we are very excited to have on the show today, John Hanger. He is the senior director of special projects at Carvana. John: [01:25] Yeah. Hey Scot, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here today. Scot: [01:29] Absolutely. So you and I have known each other for a while, but the listeners haven't, haven't they don't know you. So I'd love to hear your, your career path. How did you get to be the senior director of special projects at Carvana? John: [01:43] Cool. Well I'll keep it short because otherwise I start feeling old if I go over too many details of my career path, but in a nutshell, I have a electrical engineering and a physics background of all things, but decided right out of college, I didn't want to do that. So I went into consulting with what's now Accenture and then just through some happenstance really I got involved with what was then a enterprise software group was at Accenture and I found what I really liked to do. So I helped launch a product within Accenture, both here in the US and in Europe. Got a tremendous amount of experience at a young age, then left to do my first startup back in the early nineties. And have done a sixth sense, either a, as a founder or as a early employee slash executive, the most recent of which was an Atlanta based company here called car 360, which did 3D imaging and augmented reality around automotive retail. John: [02:47] So making it easy for people to really go beyond snapshots to interactively explore and understand things about a car before considering a purchase car. Three 60 was in turn acquired roughly a year ago in April of 2018 by Carvana. That brings us to here, today, where I worked for Carvana and special projects role, which, which basically just means I'm working on a number of risk skunkworks projects that, if I can use the term startups within Carvana, that we're building some exciting things as an innovator in the space. Scot: [03:29] Cool. As a fellow entrepreneur, I'd love to learn more about the car 360 stories. So did, was this technology you came up with or is it out of one of the, I know you're in Atlanta, is that out of like Georgia tech and then, you know, did you guys go to the venture capital route? Tell us a little bit about that journey. John: [03:46] Yeah, so car 360 is actually a very fascinating startup story. I was not the founder. The founder's name is Bruno Francoise. Bruno originally founded the company as Egos ventures. His original product was not what the car 360 product ultimately became. It was instead a mobile app that allowed a person to set their iPhone five on a table, press a button and it would, modulate the vibration of the vibrator within the phone in order to spin the phone in a 360 degree circle and take basically a 360 selfie in the room. They were sitting in and, Bruno appeared on shark tank and his original investor, coming out of that shark tank appearance was Mark Cuban. You know, the company did well for a couple of years, basically 99 cents at a time selling the, the app. but ultimately, like most consumer apps, you know, they saw a huge spike in demand and then an equally large drop in demand and found it was really tough to, to, to make a go of it. John: [04:53] So, so smartly they, they took the proceeds from that a burst of success and started building something that was a bit more of a, an enterprise play. What became ultimately car 360, my involvement came when, when the company had had just the first taste of success, but was really struggling to, to build, an enterprise business. Bruno's a, a genius inventor and technologists. But, you know, the company had grown beyond his ability to run it. I was brought in basically to, to help the company acquire financing and continued its growth. We were able to raise an a round, after a period of venture Atlanta, in 2017 we raised that round was led by BIP Capital here out of Atlanta and it was only less than a year later when Carvana acquired car 360. So it was a relatively quick acquisition, which has not been my experience in my previous five companies, but it's worked out great. Ron Is really a fascinating company to be a part of. It's incredibly fast growing and even though it's nearly a $2 billion company in revenue, it's still very much a startup in terms of how it operates. Scot: [06:10] Very cool. So I definitely want to talk about Carvana but, but I have to ask the question. Is the technology integrated into the Carvana platform at this point? John: [06:18] The immigration is very close actually to launching. Obviously our engineers have been heads down just under a year since the acquisition, working to make that happen. Right now, I think that the current status is that the, the car 360 power pieces of the technology are visible only to a really small percentage of visitors to Carvana.com on the experimental basis. And then, the way that Carvana does things, it's still ramped that up to a hundred percent of users, you know, as we get the kinks worked out. So we're imminently ready to announce that that's visible to everybody, but it's a pretty exciting time as you can imagine for the car through the former car 360 team here to see the technology, you know, fully integrated incorporated into the Carvana website. Scot: [07:05] Awesome. I'll look forward to seeing how that, that goes. so let's, let's kind of go back up to 30,000 feet with Carvana. You know, I think I mentioned on the podcast and I can't turn on the TV without seeing an ad now. and so I think a lot of people kind of know what you're doing, but I'd love to hear kind of from the horse's mouth, how you guys think about Carvana and what the company's kind of mission is. John: [07:27] So Carvana was only founded in 2012, so it's still a very young company. The company was founded really with the idea to, to change the way that people buy vehicles. in the same way perhaps using the Amazon analogy in the same way that Amazon changed the way that people buy books. Carvana set out to change the way that people buy cars. So rather than a physical dealership where a person goes to a look at and test drive vehicles and then ultimately make the purchase and do the financing, Carvana's model is a hundred percent online. So consumers shop online, they take advantage of the various advanced technologies that Carvana is delivered to, to make that possible. When they find the car they want, they placed the order, the cars typically available as early as the next day, just depending on where that car is in the country and how long it takes to get to the shopper. The car is either deliver on a truck to the customer's driveway or to their place of business or in certain cities where we have them. We have what's called vending machines, car vending machines, and the customer can choose to have the car delivered to have any issue. Scot: [08:42] Yeah, we have one of those in Raleigh and it's kind of a genius thing because it's on this highly trafficked area and it's very eye catching because most, most times you're not driving around and seeing a giant car vending machine. So, so I think it's a, it's a genius marketing trick and technique. And then, I haven't had a chance to, to get up close to one. Tell us how that works. So my understanding is you put like a giant coin in there. It's all, some of it's kind of showmanship. I understand, but isn't it essentially like a European parking structure of some kind that you guys have converted to do this? John: [09:15] Yeah, it's a really cool idea and, you know, on the face of it, it looks a little gimmicky, but, I've been blown away by how, how much our customers actually enjoy it. The way it works in a nutshell is the vending machine, first of all, is not where you go to shop for cars. It's not like a dealership where you go and look around and test drive various cars. It's where you're taking delivery of the car you've already purchased through the website. And so typically what happens is you have an appointment, the customer shows up at the appointed time. There's a team there that's basically responsible for delivering a tremendous experience for them. You know, taking delivery of a car, is something that doesn't happen every day. It's a big event. It's a fun event. John: [10:00] It should be a fun event. We go to great lengths to make it fun. So, you know, when, when they show up there, they're given a token that's like, you know, four inches around. They actually go drop it in to the venue machine. You know, there again, they've already bought their cars so we know where their car is. It's somewhere in this stack, you know, different vending machines or are different heights. Some of them are as high as nine stories, some four or five stories. But somewhere in that glass tower is, is this customer's car. there's a robotic platform that goes up, pulls the car from whatever floor it's on, brings it down, scoots it out in front of them, spins it around so they get a chance to, to see it under the bright lights and then drops it into a, into a glass garage area where the customer can then go inspect it for themselves, take it for a drive and ultimately taking home, the whole thing's recorded video and pictures so that the customer has a chance to post things to social media. And most customers will bring family members and so on just to, make it that much more fun and, it just turns out to be a great experience for everybody involved. Scot: [11:08] Very cool. So, you know, there's a lot of new car companies out there like TrueCar and car gurus. And I think the thing a lot of people may not understand is you guys aren't just kind of surfacing inventory that dealers have out there. You yourself are the dealer. You're buying these used vehicles and you're selling them direct to consumer, correct? John: [11:30] Yeah, that's correct. It's not just, you know, like car gurus and TrueCar and so on are our great partners of ours. They actually, you know, are, are what you would think of as an aggregator. They bring in, inventory from lots of different places, so, so they can, you know, arguably enhance a consumer shopping experience, but on the consumer is ready to actually, you know, really dive in and understand the vehicle that they think they're interested in and ultimately to purchase it, understand the financing around it and so on. They need to either a go through the traditional dealership experience or be a, we now offer them the alternative of doing that fully online through Carvana.com Scot: [12:11] Cool. And then just another clarification thing, so that people 100% understand you guys don't sell new cars. So, you know, it's all used cars. and then, so fact check me on that. And then also what is the sweet spot? Are these things like 10 years old or do you kind of go for, is there a certain kind of sweet spot you guys have found in the market? John: [12:31] Yeah, so it's correct that Carvana is used cars only. at this time we do not sell new cars in terms of the types of new cars, we focused strictly on high quality used cars. So every car without exception that is listed on Carvana.com will have passed our 150 point Carvana certified inspection list. And it will be, you know, less than, I don't remember all the specifics, honestly, I've thought in my head, but it's less than a certain number of years old. It's less than a certain number of miles. It'll have zero accidents reported. It will have no frame damage. In short, it'll be a super high quality used car. We take trades all the time, obviously when, when we get a trade, it's actually rare that the trades we take in, we'll meet our own criteria to resell them. So we ended up wholesaling out a lot of cars that are taken on trade because they simply don't meet our standards. So, you know, the type of shopper we attract then are people that are looking for a high quality, super dependable, clean used car. And that's our sweet spot. Scot: [13:37] Cool. So give listeners an idea of how big is Carvana. So you guys are revolutionizing the used car buying experience. Where are you on that journey? John: [13:46] So, we just announced we're a publicly traded company now, so I can, I can talk about the publicly announced results. We just announced the 2018 annual results. We sold just under 100,000 cars in 2018. So that puts us among the top largest used car sellers in the US in terms of revenue. I mentioned earlier, we're just under $2 billion in annual revenue in 2018. But perhaps the most amazing number that I can share is, you know, we, we have grown since 2012 when the company was launched to this size. Obviously by growing at a very rapid rate and a in 2018, we grew well over 100% versus 2017. And there's really no end in sight for, for that level of growth, right? It's a huge market. It's not a zero sum game. So we don't need traditional dealerships to fail in order to be successful. we just need to continue to expand in the new geographies and capture that currently small percentage consumers that want a different experience wanting online shopping experience for buying a vehicle. And we continue to be the leader in that space and hope to continue to capture more and more market share as more and more consumers embrace this online shopping. Scot: [15:08] Cool. So that's amazing. You know, I don't know what the record is for getting to $2 billion in sales, but it seems like 2012 to 2018 doing that in six years at a hundred percent growth rate. I'm not sure there's many other companies that have achieved that, so that's awesome. John: [15:23] Yeah, I'm not a full historian on that, but, my understanding is there's only a couple companies that have done that. One being Amazon and other being Uber, Scot: [15:32] Yeah. Selling cars helps versus books. So you have to sell a lot less cars then books. And then so, you know, it seems like what's causing that growth is you guys have just created a better user experience for buying cars. Right? John: [15:46] That's it, yeah. Scot: [15:47] So it's kind of seems like what people like is online option for the vending machine. And then, you know, I think another innovation you guys have done that, that we haven't explicitly talked about is the, you know, the traditional model is you would go and you'd have the sales guy and all that whole experience and then you do the test drive and then whatnot. And you guys have gotten rid of the test drive explaining how that works. John: [16:11] Yeah, well, we haven't actually. I mean, at the end of the day, we're all consumers and we all wanted to, you know, when we're making a really big purchase, we want to touch it, smell it, and drive it in the case of a car. And I, I don't think that's changed. What has changed is, from a Carvana perspective, we basically just provide a guarantee you that says, you know, you buy a car through Carvana, we're going to deliver it to your door or delivered to a vending machine and let you pick it up there with that great experience. But either way, you're going to have seven days after you take delivery of that car to decide whether you liked it. And if you don't like it for any reason or no reason whatsoever, you can return it with no questions asked and you can either trade it for a different one or you can just get your money back. John: [16:58] And, you know, that's a pretty strong statement, but that radically changes how consumers think about car shopping. Instead of having to test drive it and go around the block and then make a, you know, 30 or $50,000 decision about buying the car with no way to reverse course, you can now shop from the convenience of your computer or your mobile phone, make a purchase, and then take delivery and have seven days to just make sure that you pick the one you really want it. And that's everything you thought it would be. You know, that that's a, that's a fundamental shift in the whole purchase experience and really takes a lot of friction out of it and changes the way consumers approach it. Scot: [17:35] Yeah, I think that's what I love about the experiences you guys have just made it zero friction, which, which is key for today's consumer. you know, I spend a lot of time in my eCommerce, a job, you know, thinking about the value or the consumer versus the convenience where to consumer. And so it'd be able to buy a car online, have it delivered to me, and I can just drive it for seven days and keep it or return it. I think that's obviously really disrupting things. And have you seen traditional, you know, the other kind of competitors start to wake up to this? It's kind of funny in eCommerce it took, a good analogy would be Zappos, right? So they, they really broke open the shoe category by having free three 65 returns, you know, unlimited returns essentially for shoes because people wanted to try them on and yeah. So, but then it actually took like five or six years for the rest of the industry to wake up and have to offer to that. Have you guys seen other people react to that? John: [18:27] Well, we have, and I think we'll continue to see the automotive. Retail is a giant industry, right? And it gets mocked and made fun of a lot, because of some of the sort of stereotypical bad practices of the past. But, but by enlarge, and I've worked in the industry for, for the last 15 years or so. And you know, by and large, it's, it's actually a very innovative industry. It's constantly changing. And so, you know, whenever somebody comes up with a new idea, of course, others are quick to follow, but, you know, what Carvana is doing is a little more challenging for certain companies to follow. If you aren't selling high quality used cars, it's really hard, if not impossible for you to offer a seven day return. It no questions asked guarantee, right? John: [19:16] Because that's the financials of that probably aren't going to work too well for you. And there's a lot of other reasons as well that Carvana is uniquely positioned to do this sort of things it's doing. Because we don't have the financial burden of, you know, huge physical dealerships with, with lots of employees and so on, on the side. You know, Carvana doesn't have some things that the traditional dealerships have. And that's why I made the comment earlier that I don't think it's a zero sum game. I think the industry will evolve and change. I think there's absolutely a place for dealerships, the traditional physical dealerships going forward. I truly believe that more and more consumers will be shopping online going forward. I think it's just a matter of, you know, everybody figuring out what their spot is. John: [20:02] And on that point I should mention, you know, one of the special projects I'm working on is actually exploring ways that we can partner with traditional dealerships. And, I've done a few presentations and speeches lately. you know, reaching out to dealers. I've got a number of conversations going on with dealers where, you know, we're just exploring. I mean, what are the synergies? What are the ways we can help each other? Yeah. We, you know, we sort of compete on, on one level, but there's absolutely ways that Carvana can work with dealers and vice versa. And I'm currently exploring what some of those may be. Scot: [20:32] Yeah. I've seen in the eCommerce world that, you know, when you get to this existential crisis, all the, all the barriers break down and you know, unusual partnerships start to form. So it'll be interesting to see what that turns into. John: [20:44] Yeah. And I think, we saw that, to just drive home your point. We see that with Amazon as well, using, using that analogy. You know, Amazon originally was strictly an eCommerce providers selling books and some other things where, you know, they would essentially go to publishers by the books in bulk, put them in the Amazon warehouse and then ship them when a customer came. Right. But today you look at Amazon, it's really something very different. It's more of a marketplace where there's many retailers selling through that Amazon marketplace. Every consumer is buying with the Amazon brand promise. But in terms of on the supplier side, on the retailer side, there's many different people selling through that marketplace. And so, you know, it evolved. And, like you said, very interesting partnerships come out of it and, I think we'll see, I don't know exactly what that's gonna look like, but I think directionally that's what we'll see in automotive retail as well. Scot: [21:37] Cool. It seems like, it's a pretty geographical kind of oriented expansion plan. And is that true? So if I'm in, I don't know, Cheyenne, Wyoming, can I still work with Carvana or do you guys have to have a physical presence there? John: [21:53] Well, the technical answer to your question is, you know, in any of the 48 contiguous United States, we can facilitate delivery of a car. Now having said that, it's not going to be next day if you're in Cheyenne, Wyoming or my hometown of Missoula, Montana, because we don't have a physical presence area. So that's going to take us a little longer to get a car there. We do offer customers in those areas. The alternative of taking delivery from the nearest any machine they can, we actually reimbursed $200 towards travel expenses for those customers that want to go let's say to Phoenix and take delivery from the Phoenix vending machine or we can deliver it. It's just going to take a little bit longer. But obviously the vast majority of our businesses in markets where we have a presence and where we can offer that as soon as next day delivery promise. I lose track because we had market so frequently. I think we're in well over a hundred markets now. It might be closer to 110 markets and a that continues to grow the business. Automotive, retail has always been geographic. It was a function of where the dealership is or was. In our case, it's less so because we don't have dealerships, but there is still obviously a geographic component. And, and the level of service we can deliver obviously is a, is higher when, when we're in a given market and have the ability to deliver as soon as next day. Scot: [23:13] Cool. And then you're a hundred markets are, so what, you know, loosely around a hundred. are you guys primarily just in the US or have you gone into the rest of North America? Are any of them international at all? John: [23:24] Yes, strictly US and no, no plans have been announced to go outside the US. The opportunity is so huge here that it's hard to even start thinking about it. Obviously there are other markets in car 360, as an example, had customers in Europe. I'm familiar with many of the international automotive retail markets. There's slight differences to US but at the end of the day, mainly similar and, you know, there could be opportunities there, but right now Carvana is strictly focused on the US and I don't anticipate that changing any time soon just because we're barely scratching the surface here in the US. The hundred plus markets we're in represent something like maybe roughly 60% of the consumers in the US so a long, long way to go. Scot: [24:10] Absolutely. So I've seen the kind of the front end location. I imagine there's some kind of a back-end location or maybe those are separate. is there kind of like a supply chain part of what you guys do where, you know, so for example, the product photography you guys do are amazing and obviously car 360's gonna going to be a big part of that. but the things I've seen, it looks like the car is sitting on a giant turntable and like kind of rotating as part of that. And I, you know, I imagine that's not happening at the local dealer level. Is there some other location where that goes on? John: [24:43] Yeah. So, I'll, I'll dive into your specific question about the photography in a moment, but, but to answer the first part, you know, Carvana is more than just, any eCommerce company. It's actually a vertically integrated group of companies, one of which, you know, it's not the glamorous part of the company, but it's a critically important to our success. And a big part of our competitive moat, frankly, is the logistics and supply chain business. we operate, and I don't know the exact number, but I'm going to say in the ballpark of 259 car trucks that haul around the cars all over the country. We, they'll, all those drivers work for us. All the trucks are owned by us and a very sophisticated software group that does the optimization of the routes. We really believe in treating our employees right. So for example, with those nine car truck callers, no driver ever spent the night on the road. John: [25:37] The software group works really hard to optimize the routes so that drivers can basically meet in the middle of swap keys, take each other's trucks, and always be home at night. which is, which is a big part of a sort of the lifestyle side of Carvana and commitment to employees as well. But you can imagine, you know, we're selling 100,000 cars in 2018. Every one of those cars had to be, had to be mood. Most of them over a long haul from one part of the country to another. So it's a big part of what we do. beyond that, we then have many, many, many hundreds of the single car haulers, which would probably double if you or your listeners live in a market where Carvana operates, you've probably seen our single car haulers. They're small flat beds and those are the, those are the vehicles we use to deliver cars for home delivery or to pick up traits for example. John: [26:27] And so, you know, just the sheer investment of capital by all these trucks, single car haulers, nine car haulers, employ all the drivers and so on is, is a big part of Carvana's business in a big enabler for what we're able to do. coming back to the, the photography takes place in what we call our inspection and reconditioning centers or IRC. we have I think five of those now, around the country. And we continue to add more to compare and contrast that the traditional dealership, to the extent that a dealership decided to do any inspection and reconditioning on a used car, they would do so with basically, you know, spare, spare time and spare resources from their service department. But it's not really the focus obviously in the service department that focuses on servicing retail customers cars. As a result, reconditioning in the truthful dealership wasn't, it wasn't a big focus, was inconsistent, had challenges and certainly wasn't the least cost approach to, to accomplish in the reconditioning. John: [27:31] What we've done is we think about the IRC is as essentially like a manufacturing plant or a factory and a, we have teams of process engineers that just really focused on how do we make them incredibly efficient and able to deliver an incredibly high level of quality on a consistent basis. And they're really amazing to see. The ones that we have. we've got one in New Jersey, one here in Georgia, one in Texas, one in Arizona and w and, we just recently announced one in Indianapolis and these IRCs are amazing. Each of them employs 500 plus people and you know, they're processing tens of thousands of cars a year, some slightly bigger than others, but all sort of in that order of magnitude. So it's just incredible watching the number of cars that go through there and the incredible job that our associates do and both inspecting and then reconditioning the cars yet. Scot: [28:31] It's funny, it's like eCommerce to have a tab, the simple front end experience. It's amazing how much it has to happen on the backend. John: [28:36] It's true. And then I almost forgot to talk about the photography, but the very last step that those IRC is the photography. So once a car arrives, it's inspected. They basically determine what needs to be done on any given car, right. To get it up to our standards. And then each car takes a different path through the factory, just dependent upon what, what his needs are. But they all ultimately end up going through a detailed process. And at the end of the detailed process going into the photo domes and we have, we have, made a huge investment in these photo domes that ensure perfect lighting on the car. We know that consumers buying a car online obviously need more than a few snapshots. John: [29:18] They want to know interactively explore the car and even before the car 360 acquisition Carvana heads full of the most sophisticated software for, for, for doing this, capture of the photographs and presentation of the photographs with annotation with car 360, where obviously taking it to the next level with 3D. But the bottom line is we invest a tremendous amount of time and effort to, to light and then capture the imagery of the vehicle to annotate it as an example of the type of things we annotate. And you know, just beyond the sort of standard features and capabilities of the car, if there's a, if there's a small rock chip on, you know, the, the front bumper, it wasn't big enough to justify the expense to repair it, it's probably barely noticeable to the eye. But nonetheless, as part of our inspection process, we'll highlight that. John: [30:11] We'll take a closeup photo of it. And then when the consumer views the car on Carvana.com we're actually going to bring their attention to it, which, you know, for traditional automotive retail is like counter intuitive. You know, you try to hide things when you're trying to sell somebody a car. You don't try to highlight things. But we take the opposite approach. We want full transparency, we want the consumer to know exactly what is good about the car and conversely exactly what any of the blemishes or nicks and chips are, so that when they take delivery, they will receive what they, what they thought that they had ordered. And that's another big part of our business that I think sets us apart from the traditional industry. Scot: [30:53] And we've, so, so far we've talked about how you guys have innovated buying cars. A lot of people I talk to love the selling car experience. Maybe talk a little bit about that. John: [31:03] Yeah. So, it's kind of a, a relatively new focus for Carvana. You know, obviously from the beginning we took trades and, and a fair number of people buying a car, we'll, we'll have an old car to trade in. More recently we launched a national campaign. We have a part of the site that's set up where if you have a car you want to sell, we, you know, we'll make a binding offer and we'll do that sight unseen, which is a pretty radical when you think about it, right? Because traditionally you could get a, you can go and get a black book estimate or, or a blue book estimate or any number of other quote unquote estimates out there. But those are just guidelines. They aren't, they aren't binding. And certainly nobody's willing to write you a check for that amount until they seen the car and driven the car and so on. John: [31:49] But, but Carvana has a really innovative program where you can go, putting the information about the car, and we'll give a binding offer and, if you accepted it, we'll send a truck out to pick up the car from your driveway. And that has been going extremely well for us. It's strategic. It gives us access to cars so that we don't have to buy at auction or source in any other way. The key to it really is we have a super sophisticated set of technology and, and and a sophisticated database that has what's called build data. For those in the industry, they may be familiar, but for most they probably aren't. But each car has a vehicle identification number or Vin. And from that number there's commonly available data that allows you to do what's called a vin explosion, which he'll tell you, you know, make model what year the car is, that sort of thing. John: [32:40] But what it doesn't give you is all the detailed information about what packages and options did that car come with from the factory. Those, those sorts of details are really important before he can put it in, put a value on a car. What we've done is we've, we've built, through a bunch of sophisticated technologies, a database that allows us to know better than better than most, if not better than anybody based on event all the information about that car. Then we have, you know, sort of level of confidence and a lot of sophisticated data technology that allows us to, to put a binding offer on a car and a view it as a, as an overall portfolio. And that part of our business is growing very fast and it couldn't be more convenient, right? If, if you, if you're looking to sell a car, what could be more convenient than getting a binding offer online. and then having somebody come pick it up versus the traditional, you know, listed hope that somebody that isn't a mass killer in response to your ad on craigslist and it gives you a fair offer. And you know, most people that go through that process, thankfully don't have meat, a mass murderer, but they do get frustrated after, you know, four to eight weeks and can't sell their car. And they ended up selling it to a dealer probably for a first, substantially less than they could have sold it to us for. Scot: [33:54] Yeah. And some of the other companies that have tried to make the song a car experience better. I always get frustrated because you'll go take your car and then they like take an hour to review it and then then like the dude comes back and says, I'm sorry, you know, your car is great, but we've got five of those on the lot and it's just like you, you couldn't have told me that before I sat here. Now they seem to, you know, they're there. I've never had a great experience on that side of thing. So, so I liked the idea of just like getting an online quote and having you guys come get it. That's amazing. John: [34:22] Yeah, that's right. And you know, it's not defending the local dealer that did that to you. But you know, they only, they have to look at what they can sell on that lot, which, you know, hich is a relatively small sample size. Whereas Carvana looks at it as, you know, we know what demand there is for certain vehicles and we have a nationwide footprint. So naturally we have a much more efficient algorithm for determining in what the car is really worth and giving you a fair offer. Scot: [34:53] Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool to be able to, when data is king, having a wider lenses is really important. John: [34:58] Well said. Scot: [34:59] So the last part of kind of the existing Carvana before we kind of go into future vehicle stuff, you guys also offer financing. You know, I, I know that that's where a lot of, at least new car dealers, that's where they make their bread and butter said the financing options are kind of hard to navigate. it seems like, yet again, you guys have kind of made it pretty simple. Tell us a little bit about how that came to be and what happens there. John: [35:21] So first it'd be clear a while financing is something we offer it as part of a key part of our business, it's not required. So a lot of our customers do bring financing from their local credit union or from, you know, Bank of America or whatever it may be. And that's fine. But the fact is a high percentage, more than half of our customers end up using financing through Carvana. And the reason for that is obviously we're very competitive in terms of the rates and so on, but, but more importantly, I think is we've integrated it into the shopping experience. So it's not, it's, it doesn't have to be a separate thing. A lot of consumers shop for cars based on, you know, how much they can afford in terms of a monthly payment. And we've got tools that allow shoppers of that nature to approach the car shopping from, from that standpoint so that it doesn't become like this long drawn out. John: [36:14] I found the car I liked, but now I find out I can't afford it sort of thing. It's more like a streamline where you can, you can solve for both at the same time, solve for what you can afford and what you like simultaneously and reduce the inventory that you're looking at according to those filters all at the same time. So, that technology is, is pretty unique to us. I'm not aware of many others who are able to do that today and, you know, it is an important part of the overall shopping experience above and beyond the delivery in the vending machines and that sort of thing. Scot: [36:48] Awesome. Cool. Well that- John: [36:50] Sorry Scot I forgot one other thing to add there, you know, one of the interesting things to me is there's trends, as you're well aware and your listeners on this podcast are well aware. You know, when you look at how car ownership is just changing in general, when you look at subscription models and shared car experiences and so on, there's clearly some trends there that, that are happening and that will certainly affect us. We're not playing in that directly. But what we have done, I think, and I've heard several outside folks comment on this is, you know, we, we've sort of blurred the line a little bit. You know, there used to be a really clear delineation between the traditional car buying experience in a subscription model, but if you really radically changed the traditional car buying experience, streamline and bring it online, add the financing tools so that it's an integrated part of the shopping experience. All of a sudden getting a traditional loan as part of that shopping experience looks an awful lot like a subscription model. John: [37:52] It's not, but it's a lot less friction than the traditional car buying and loan processing part of it. So, I think that is important and you know, nobody's placing their bets on this, but you know, from my perspective, I would have to venture a guess that, you know, if you can make that experience where the consumer incurs a lot less friction, they're more likely to transact more frequently. And I think that's something that does a really interesting dynamic for the industry, whether it's, whether it's subscription or, or, or just traditional buying experience through financing, but, but it happens more frequently. You know, that's a really interesting thing, right? Like if people instead of owning cars for an average of five years, which I think is sort of the accepted norm today, what if it's four and what does that do to the industry and how does that change how, how consumers think about things. So, I think that's a really interesting trend for us all to watch. Scot: [38:46] Yeah. Have you guys seen that where, because you've made it so easy, your Carvana customers are probably I'd guess. And it's fine if you don't want to answer this, but you know, we see this in eCommerce, like once you make something easier than, than people use it a lot more. And it always surprises folks like, you know, 10 years ago, no one thought same day delivery would be a thing. And now because it's offered then it, you know, people realize how convenient is and it's incrementally added. Have you guys seen that where, because you're buying experiences, so easy and then the trade back experiences is so easy, that your Carvana customers are kind of owning cars on a shorter, shorter time frame? John: [39:23] Yeah, I think we've seen early signs of that. but you know, we're, we're data people, so we're not ready to say that, you know, we're seeing that definitively or that, you know, we can predict what it means to our business. Again, you know, we sold a handful of cars in 2012 that we sold 100,000 last year. So the historical data that we have as a basis for drawing surfaces is still a relatively limited, but we're definitely seeing encouraging signs and we fundamentally believe that, you know, if we can make the experience that much better, that people are more likely to, to transact more frequently, and we draw that conclusion from some of the same, analogies that you decided, right? It's been a common theme across multiple industries where eCommerce has changed consumer behavior. Scot: [40:16] Yeah. And then, you're comment on subscriptions is interesting cause you know, as a consumer, if I could pay, maybe there's a tiered system and you've seen so, so like clutch for example, has worked with a lot of dealers to offer something like this where, you know, for 500 up to maybe a thousand dollars a month, if I could just kind of have subscriptions to a variety of cars, that could be a lot of fun as a consumer, right. Because, you know, maybe you've always wanted to try the convertible, but it's not really practical. And so maybe I could just go get that for a week and then like, you know, now I'm going to the mountains and I need a four runner or whatever. So, so it seems like you guys could be in a position if you chose to do that, because you've made all this stuff so simple and you've got all the inventory and all that. It's easy to say what I just said, but like, you know, the, you're going to need the reconditioning centers, you're going to need the photography, you're going to need the delivery, the singles at the nines, all that stuff. It seems like you guys have actually kind of built all the stuff you would need to do something like that. John: [41:13] Yeah. So I personally, just on a personal interest level, I've spent a lot of time thinking about and exploring subscription models and like you, from a consumer experience perspective, I think it's really attractive, right? Like I want a convertible for the weekend, but I need a pickup truck next weekend because I'm doing some yard work or whatever. I think it's very compelling. How have you been in the industry? I also probably have a greater appreciation that most for, for the other side of the equation and, and you know, it's really just a question of fleet utilization. I think that's where there's still a lot of question marks, right? Like if you don't get the fleet utilization really high, then the cost of operating that sort of subscription model is just beyond reason, right? Like you'd have to charge consumers such a premium that it probably isn't viable. John: [42:05] And so that's really the key. Right? And there's a lot of really smart people in the industry working on that and trying to figure out, you know, how to, how do you do that utilization? How do you make that work? I think the only examples where it's working today are, you know, fleets for, you know, Uber drivers or similar company-wide fleets. And there's a lot of really smart people in the industry trying to learn from those examples and bring it into just for the general consumer world. I don't think we're there yet. I think it's a really exciting area for us all to keep our eyes on and see what happens. And to your point, to the extent that there is a viable model there, I think Carvana could be well positioned to take advantage of it, but it's not something we're doing today. Scot: [42:47] Cool. We'll, let's, let's kick it back up to high level again. So, you know, here on the podcast we talk about this framework, we've come up with a, which is the vehicle to a framework. We've talked a lot about car ownership. So I think we've checked the box there. The other three parts of the framework are connected car, and then electrification or EVs and then autonomy or AVs. Yup. How about connected car and he, and Oh yeah. And for this part of the program, let's kind of, you know, obviously you're at Carvana, but I'd love to, so this is not like a Carvana speculation or anything about what you guys are doing. Just more of your personal, you know, as a guy that's been in the car industry for a long time, we'd love to hear your more personal thoughts on where you think these trends are going. John: [43:29] Yeah, sure. Totally. A car guy on a personal level, I have a daily driver and a fun car, but both have, you know, sort of modern connected car type capabilities. And I followed closely shared with you at the beginning of the show, you know, my electrical engineering and physics background probably goes without saying that I just find all three of these things connected car, EV, AV as incredibly fascinating. So, you know, all three are going to happen. First of all, I would just tell you, I personally believe that the question I think is, you know exactly how and exactly how pervasive, right? Like connected car I think, of the three, is just absolutely going to happen because it makes so much sense. The only restraints, I think ours, we, you know, we've got to find the proverbial demarcation zone, when it comes to personally identifying information and data. John: [44:26] But, otherwise there's just so many things there that make sense and the technology's so it's, it's just going to happen. EVs, I mean, it's happening, right? Like it's, it's undeniable. I think, the range question is really the last frontier. I myself would probably own a Tesla or something today if, if only the range where greater. but you know, I have four kids in college and then I'm driving anywhere from four to seven hours to go see him on a frequent basis and I can't get there in any of today's EVs. So I think that's, at least from my personal experience, sort of the only thing holding back. But you know, for commuting to work and, and, and for shorter drives, they're awesome. I have so many colleagues and friends who have EVs and are super happy with them. John: [45:14] I just personally believe that's, that's a foregone conclusion that a large percentage of the cars that we drive going forward will be EVs. On the AV side, you have to start getting into levels there. Clearly, somewhere of autonomy is going to be common place in every vehicle going forward. The question is how much autonomy, and I'm still not swayed to believe that, maybe in the biggest cities we'll get to some of a five, but I think I just don't see that being as pervasive. I think, I think the, the, the kind of features that, that, you know, I have, on my cars today that are, you know, an intelligent cruise that bring awareness to the cars around me and break some level of autonomy are, are going to become a place that's a little less clear to me whether we'll ever get to where we've got fully autonomous vehicles that are picking this up and driving us around. I, there's a certain part of that that's intriguing to me as, as a, as an engineer, but there's, there's a certain amount of skepticism I think as well, just because I'm a practical guy and I just don't see it as pervasive. I think maybe limited use cases and in certain big cities might be the place to look for that to start. Scot: [46:37] Yeah. One tactical kind of curiosity question with the EVs. I've poked around Carvana a lot. And, I'm a Tesla guy and you guys have a really good inventory of Teslas and I've noticed you have a lot of like, you know, the Leafs and the plug in hybrids and stuff. Does that, is that a challenge because you have to have the charging infrastructure internally to be able to charge all those things? John: [46:57] No. You know, I mean, I guess the correct answer would be yes, of course it's a challenge, but, but you know, we, we look at inventory, we know demand on inventory, we know there's demand for that inventory. So obviously we want to facilitate, facilitate delivery of that inventory. And that requires some charging infrastructure. But it's, it's not a problem, right? It's when you think about all the other capital investments we've made, those, are, you know, relatively minor piece. And I think it's serving a growing part of, of what we see as the future inventory will be selling. Scot: [47:29] Yeah. Here, here's an idea. So since you already have that, you guys could become charging stations and you know, while I'm charging, I could browse the vending machine so you can put that in your special project bucket. John: [47:43] Where we're doing the charging, right? It's in those IRCs. You know, like the one here in Georgia for those of your listeners in Georgia that they'll get a kick out of this, but it's in Winder, Georgia, which is, you know, roughly 45 minutes to an hour outside of Atlanta. As you can imagine. I mean, these are giant facility, so you're not going to put him in a metro environment. They're going to be where real estate's a little bit cheaper. So, so it's out in the middle of absolutely nowhere where we're probably, nobody's ever going to be going happened to be going by and needing to charge. But, but those are interesting. it's an interesting point. And, you know, I think that whole, charging center challenges is, is, is really, like I said, the last frontier and part of what's holding back, they even broader adoption of EVs. So maybe we can play a part in it, who knows? Scot: [48:27] Yeah. Cool. Well I charge 10% for all my ideas too, so keep that one. Okay. John: [48:33] All right. You got a reputation for having a lot of good ideas, so maybe that's not a bad deal. Scot: [48:39] Any other thoughts on, on where you see cars just generally going in the next five to 10 years? John: [48:44] Nah. We've covered a lot. I would just say, you know, it's very exciting. Automotive retail, like I said, sometimes gets, it gets a black guy because of some of the, some of the experiences people have had in the past. But, it's an incredibly exciting and huge market and, were, from a Carvana perspective, thrilled to be, innovating and bringing about what we think are some really positive changes. We do it in a way that, you know, is great for our employees. It's a great company to work for. And, I think, Carvana has a bright future. I think automotive retail as bright future. And I think, you know, all the sort of trends that you and your listeners are following in terms of changes in car ownership and connected cars and EVs, AVs are just incredibly exciting areas to, keep an eye on and to follow in the coming years because, no doubt they'll just be a lot of, a lot of innovation continuing to come at us. Scot: [49:38] Very cool. Well, we really appreciate you being on the show. We're up against time here, so obviously people can go to carvana.com if they want to learn about that. I always love for public companies to go to the investor relations area because that's where you get all the really good juicy stuff. And that's investors.carvana.com. How about you on a personal level? Are you, do you kind of pontificate online about the future of cars? Where can people kind of follow you if that's something you do? John: [50:02] Yeah, I'm not a big pontificator except maybe in person, just don't ask my wife. But I do spend a fair bit of time on Linkedin and post a bit there. So anybody interested in following can do that. Also I just point them to the Carvana social media accounts. We do a lot, not just of self promotion but in terms of highlighting industry trends. The last call out I'd have, and Scot you may know Cliff as well, but Cliff Banks has a site called The Banks Report; banksreport.com. And Cliff is one of the smartest guys and most connected guys in the industry who follows all these same trends. So he's another great resource for those interested in the topics that you cover. Scot: [50:49] Awesome. Thanks for that. We really appreciate you highlighting that. And thanks for coming on the podcast. We really appreciate you taking the time and this has been super informative. I have learned like a thousand things about Carvana. John: [50:59] Thank you Scott. I appreciate the opportunity and keep doing all the great stuff you're doing.

Welcome back! Episode 2! We made it… You are now listening to the Game of Grow Podcast and I’m your host, Muoyo Okome. Episode 2 of the most dangerous business podcast in the universe. It doesn’t matter where you start or where you are right now. Where are you trying to go? Who do need to become? What price are you willing to pay to get there? Are you willing to take that challenge and grow? Review of the Day Before we dive into today’s topic, let’s tackle a little thing I like to call the review of the day. This is going to be a brief segment where I grab one of the recent reviews I like and feature it on the podcast, as a little way of saying thank you, because listen, we are underdogs here in the podcasting world. We don’t have huge budgets or influencer marketing like some of these other shows. This is grassroots. We sink or swim based on the actions of you, our community. You taking that minute, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, to subscribe and review the show and getting others to buy in and do the same is the only way we can hope to compete and get our message out. So listen to this review I got… even before we officially launched (I’d given a sneak peek to just a few people… and guess what… they did the right thing and got back to me…. Here we go) And this is exactly what keeps me going. I don’t make money on this show, so your feedback is the only KPI I’ve got... your feedback is life. If you are getting value, and better yet if you are getting results, then this podcast is doing it’s job and I’m happy. If not, I have no idea what we’re doing here at all. Let’s all go home… So here’s the review from Shirley: “it was an EXTREMELY real powerful intro...  it was authentic, it was simple, I made sure to listen on my drive to compare the experience with my other audiobooks and podcasts and it was really great quality... I like the message mostly because u said u weren’t an EXPERT! I find too much of that and that really resonated with me... you shared where u want to go, no hidden agenda... very REAL! This is NEEDED..” That was Shirley…. Shoutout to you Shirley… Really appreciate you. So go ahead and subscribe and leave a rating & review on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play… wherever you happen to be listening and perhaps I’ll be featuring you next! On This Episode... On this episode…. I guess we’re still getting to know each other, so I want to share a bit about my family and what makes me who I am. We’ll be discussing the lessons I learned as the son of immigrants, how they’ve helped me in business and life, and more importantly, how they can hopefully help you. And I stillll want to hear more about you, so make sure you use those communication channels that have been provided on gameofgrow.com and hit me. We also have the Game of Grow Community, which you can find on Facebook, so make sure you search for that and take advantage. And I should also point out now, that yes, this is a business and entrepreneurship podcast, but the messages we talk about here are not limited to entrepreneurs alone. Whether or not you own a business or even want to in the future, if you are striving to grow and have more success in your life, this show absolutely applies to you as well Today’s Topic So without further ado... Today, we’re going to talk about what I learned from being the son of immigrants, and how you can apply that to your life and your business… cool? And real quick since we are on the topic of family, big shoutout to my younger brother who I neglected to mention on our introductory episode of the podcast… (we don’t edit) He’s studying to be a doctor. Super proud… And although it’s kind of a stereotype for African kids to be pushed to be doctors, lawyers, or engineers, there was no sort of pressure like that from my parents… shoutout to them… this is legitimately what he is passionate about doing and I wish him nothing but the best So with that, let’s get right into it... 1981 they touched down in JFK airport. Two suitcases. One bad check. Somebody had decided to pay my dad for his car with a bad check. This was a so called “friend of the family”. So at the time,  we're living in a small apartment in Brooklyn New York... probably an illegal apartment, but you know I had one of the best childhoods, even though it was difficult for my parents. And I wouldn't say that I got everything I wanted. For example I never had pair of Jordan sneakers. Grew up in Brooklyn never had Jordans... but I always had everything I needed. I was extremely provided for. So in this household we had the education, we had the hard work, we had the athletics... But more than anything, what I learned from my parents was resourcefulness. You don't complain, you make the best of what you have and you just try to be extremely resourceful and make it happen… and that's what they did. So I recall an instance that really drilled this don't complain thing home... We went to Nigeria. I was still a young kid. We flew to Nigeria every so often… So getting off the plane in lagos, we're walking to the car and I'm rushed by a bunch of kids who were touching my arms, grabbing on my clothing, and asking what I can give them... and the reason why was because clearly I was from America and they perceived that I had something that they did not… And as we're making our way through Lagos… keep in mind not everyone in Nigeria lives in poverty... I don't want you to think that, but many people do...  and this was my first exposure to it on that level... And I'm seeing these scenes, experiencing these experiences, and seeing the way that people perceive me and it just really hit home that a lot of the things that I thought to that point where problems were not problems. And as I'm returning home, my young mind is reflecting on this and it really stuck with me and I just thought... man these things are not problems and I'm just not going to complain. And matter of fact, I don't need to go to Nigeria to find poverty or or hardship, I can find it right here in the US, and many countries around the world... Watching the news will tell you that much. And so I resolved that I was not going to complain. I was gonna try to make the best of what I had and I'll be extremely resourceful. And those habits and those traits have really played themselves out very well and benefited me throughout my life. The gratitude thing… it’s so huge. Even to this day, I wake up each morning, and think about 3… well, at least 3 things I am grateful for. I used to actually take time and write them down in a physical journal with pen and paper, which is cool and impactful for its own reasons, but now I just visualize, and it still works very well… And one thing I’ll tell you… and this is not just woo woo, fluffy shit, this is real shit… Putting that gratitude in motion from the start of your day helps to put you in a positive mind frame, which makes it much easier to operate and tends to make you a lot more productive, or at least it does for me. So even on my worst days, when I wake up in a mood feeling like nothing is going right… believe me, i experience those often… at the very least I can think to myself yo… I woke up today and that is amazing. I have my health, I have my legs… I can go to the bathroom and turn on water and it runs… amazing. I can afford food. I have a roof over my head. A lot of this may sound cliche, but if you think about it, it’s real shit. And a lot of the time, we don’t appreciate some of the most amazing things until we lose a friend, or take a hit to our health, or miss a check… etc… Anyway, I'm not here to preach, but practicing gratitude is amazing. Give it a try for 3 weeks and hit me up to let me know your results. @gameofgrow everywhere… Game of Grow Community on Facebook, gameofgrow.com… you know where to find me Moving on... So in terms of the resourcefulness aspect, one really concrete example I'll give you people ask me all the time... Hey I want to become an entrepreneur. I want to go full time… How do I get funding? How do I find investors? Well I'll tell you, I invested in myself, and this all came about because of resourcefulness. Now, when I got my first job out of business school, this was my first time making over six figures… making a hundred thousand dollars, which was amazing to me. Some of you might be saying, wow, that’s a solid salary… that’s good money. Some of you might be saying, well, that’s not a lot of all Well to me, it was A LOT OF MONEY. I had never seen more in my life. And rather than step up my my cost of living, step of my standard of living, get a really fly apartment like many of my peers I decided to keep it, you know, decent, but basic (people who are close to me still make fun of me for this apartment). I lived in a simple nice townhouse, old townhouse… and I was spending a lot less for this apartment than many of my peers… and there were certainly some sacrifices that came with that. I’m not saying there weren’t... But what this allowed me to do was to put away money every month which allow me just a lot more freedom when things got difficult at my job and I knew that I needed to leave and do something different I had the money to invest in online courses that we're going to help my mind, help my mindset help, my skills help me to advance myself. I had the money to invest in my business before my businesses had the revenue that would invest back into themselves so things got difficult, and sometimes things sucked, but I was still grateful um for the check the job was giving me. I thanked God for that every single week, and I really tried to not complain, and instead just stay focused on solutions. At that last job I had, on every Friday I would say, “I have no idea what we are doing around here or how we even make money around here… I don’t really like it around here…. but thank God for this check!” haha… Because I knew they were investing in my future business, which was huge. In each and every situation I’m faced with, if I don’t like what’s going on, rather than fix my mouth to complain I try to figure out what can I do about it and if I don't want to do something about it, then I gotta let it go. So I really want to thank my immigrant parents for teaching me how to be grateful, how to be resourceful, how to have grit, and how to just make things happen. (and maybe this is how other parents operate too… I have no idea… I can only speak from my experience) So those are some of the biggest lessons my parents taught me…. There are many, trust me. No short supply. What's the biggest lesson that you've learned from your parents? Make sure to sign up for the mailing list at gameofgrow.com If and only if you received great value from this episode, I ask that you pay the fee… which is, in addition to you subscribing and leaving a review (the single biggest thing you can do to say thanks, and help us to reach more people), for each episode you get value from, please bring me back one person, show them how to subscribe for the show, let them know what we do here and what we’re about, etc, etc… Sound fair?? Question of the Day Oh, and of course the question of the day…. What’s the most valuable thing you learned from your parents? And our bonus question: What are 3 things you are grateful for? You know how to reach me, so reach out and let me know… The Fee This episode was sponsored by you, so IF AND ONLY IF YOU GOT VALUE, make sure you pay that fee and bring me back one like minded person who you know would enjoy this content… If you didn’t… this doesn’t apply to you. You can give me the middle finger and keep it moving. You don’t have to do anything. But if you got value, bring me back one person back for each episode where that’s true… I’m not talking 5 people, 10 people, 20 people… I mean I won’t be mad, but the fee is just one. I’m nothing if not FAIR! Right?? Alright… Enough of this tomfoolery…. And with that, I’ll see you guys back here real soon on the Game of Grow Podcast. 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Well I'll tell you what, "Pro Talk Outdoors" in the beginning was something that we wanted to get started and just get some more information out there for folks, and I'll admit that "Pro Talk Outdoors" was kind of a selfish thing for me. I selfishly started the podcast because I wanted to be able […]

Home Cookingwith Kate McDermott Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Kate McDermott: Hi, Suzy, and your listeners. I'm Kate McDermott, and I'm here at Pie Cottage today in Port Angeles, Washington on the beautiful peninsula. I'm here to talk about my new book "Home Cooking with Kate McDermott" that just came out.Suzy Chase: The very first line in the cookbook is, "You can do this." I love it. What compelled you to make that the very first line of this cookbook?Kate McDermott: I have taught so many people in pie-making in my Art of the Pie pie camp classes, and people come in feeling nervous that they can't make a pie. I learned the first thing you let them know is, "This is really easy. There is nothing to it," and by the time they leave the workshops, they're feeling like, "Well what was the big fear about this? It's so easy?" I felt that it's the same thing when you go into, my kitchen at least, when I'm cooking. This stuff is easy and delicious I feel, at least people tell me that it is, and that anybody can make these dishes. There's nothing hard about it, there's no exotic ingredients, it requires no special equipment, and pretty much anybody can make them.Suzy Chase: Speaking of pies, talk a little bit about what is enough, how pie recipes are being tweaked to fill larger pans these days.Kate McDermott: I had a very interesting conversation a few years back with an editor for one of the larger food magazines. She mentioned to me something that corroborated my experience over the years when I have been making recipes, older recipes from the '40s, '50s, sometimes even the '60s and early '70s, in cookbooks, pie recipes. The ingredients, following the recipes never filled the pie pan correctly; there was not enough dough, there was not enough filling. My solution to that, of course, was just to size the recipes up to fit the pie pans. Now, what she told me was that our recipes in older cookbooks, in decades prior to this, were sized for the size of vessels that we had at that time, which were substantially smaller than what we have now. A full-sized pie, the pie pan is very different. The size of a piece of pie that is cut now is probably one-and-a-half to two times the size-Suzy Chase: Oh my gosh.Kate McDermott: Of a piece of pie that we ate in, say, 1950. I think this is also true with many of the dishes that we make now, the serving sizes. It is not necessarily that, "Oh, we should be cleaning our plate" as our mothers told us to do. When our plate is so overfilled that really I look sometimes at plates of food that come to me at a table in a restaurant and I say, "This could feed four people."Suzy Chase: Well, come to New York City because it's the exact opposite. It's like a tiny nugget.Kate McDermott: Well there's probably a balance there somewhere-Suzy Chase: Yes.Kate McDermott: More than a tiny nugget but more than the whole casserole on your plate. "Less" than the whole casserole on your plate, sorry.Suzy Chase: It's so hard to get your mom out of your head, though, saying, "Clean your plate."Kate McDermott: Oh yeah, yeah. I know for me, there were things that she really worked hard to get me to eat. I was not fond of vegetables when I was young, so I spent many an hour at the table. I couldn't leave the table until my plate was clean, and I know she was just trying to get me to eat my vegetables.Suzy Chase: For you, every morning is a different painting. Tell me about Duncan and his breakfast hash.Kate McDermott: Well, my son Duncan has been in the kitchen with me since always. He loves to be in the kitchen. He does many other things also, but he's really competent over these years of being in there with me of now taking on kitchen responsibilities in his own house and when he comes over here. He loves to cook for lots of people. I remember at the home of one of his girlfriends one time, her dad says, "Oh we love it when Duncan comes over because he immediately goes in the kitchen and starts cooking," and many times what he's making is his breakfast hash, which started by just going in and chopping up pretty much whatever was in the fridge or [inaudible 00:05:52]. There always were potatoes. He loves bacon. Who doesn't love bacon? He likes to season things highly, actually. He would just chop and chop and cook and cook, and started making this hash. Usually when people would get up in the morning, if I had a house full of people, the house was already smelling like breakfast and Duncan was in the kitchen cooking. When you get up and you smell something great like my son's cooking, or if I may be so bold, some of my cooking, it's just a wonderful way to start the day.Suzy Chase: One photo in the book that I love is on page 28; it's a few of your cookbooks. You read cookbooks like novels. What was your first cookbook, and what's your favorite cookbook?Kate McDermott: Okay, well my first cookbook as it is shown in there is "Betty Crocker's Cookbook for Boys and Girls." I still do have my original copy and that is the copy that you see. All those cookbooks that are on page 28, those are my cookbooks. That was my first one, and I loved looking through the pages and picking out what I was going to make. I think that's translated now into continuing to read cookbooks as if they were novels, and picturing me in the kitchen, my hands chopping the vegetables, my hands making whatever it is. You kind of can read the recipe and imagine the smells and the textures. My favorite cookbook, oh my goodness. I probably would say, well I love Marion Cunningham's "The Fannie Farmer Cookbook." It's just like a good, old friend to me, but also one of my favorites is "The Tassajara Bread Book." Not so much that I bake out of it anymore, but just because it's like a talisman to me. It's how many of us in the generation that grew up in the '60s and the '70s, it's how we learned to make bread.Suzy Chase: What year was that cookbook put out?Kate McDermott: That cookbook was put out, I believe, in 1970-something. It was at least out by the mid-seventies I believe.Suzy Chase: Okay. Speaking of old friends, you also have various story time sections, and one was when you met Marion Cunningham-Kate McDermott: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Suzy Chase: The woman who revised "The Fanny Farmer Cookbook." Reading that piece made me feel like you hit it off immediately. Describe that.Kate McDermott: We did. I was on the farm in California, at Frog Hollow. Great stone fruit orchard, wonderful fruit there, and I was there for a wonderful celebration of Alice Waters' edible food yard, her project. It felt like everybody in the world was there, including Marion, and of course I was just agog at like, "Oh my God, here's this person and here's that person," and there was Marion. It was a very, very hot summer day. There was going to be a tour of the orchard, and it was too hot for Marion to go out. I absolutely said to her, "Well I'll stay behind" because being now a north-westerner, although I was transplanted; I was originally from Santa Barbara, as a north-westerner now, anything above 60 degrees was hot to me and I was delighted to stay behind. We went up to the farm office, which was air conditioned, and sat together and had a wonderful, one-hour conversation one-on-one about things that we both felt were important: family, family at the table, the table, putting meals on the table, gathering friends and family. It was absolutely one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I got to hear very interesting things about her too, that really what she had wanted to do in life was to have a garage and be a mechanic.Suzy Chase: Oh wow. Really?Kate McDermott: Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, after everybody came back, then we went out into the orchard where the big table was set in-between the rows of peach trees. She just motioned and said, "You sit right over there." It was just such a magical evening. I saw her after that when she came up to Washington to speak. She greeted me like I was her long lost best friend. It was so amazing.Suzy Chase: Oh wow. You'll always remember that.Kate McDermott: Oh totally, and I have a picture of that day. Actually, I have a picture of myself at the farm on that day, but the one that I love the most is when she was in Washington and I have a picture of her signing my very dog-eared copy of her cookbook, "The Fanny Farmer Cookbook." She looked at it and said, "I think this would take the prize for the most used."Suzy Chase: What an honor.Kate McDermott: Oh yeah.Suzy Chase: How old was she when you met her?Kate McDermott: Oh, she was I believe in her eighties at this point.Suzy Chase: In the High Noon section of "Home Cooking," you have the "Good Old Butter Sandwich," but your spin on it is that you have re-imagined it in 10 different ways. Describe the one with peppers and arugula.Kate McDermott: Oh, this is one of my favorites. So you're going to take some bread, and if you like, my mom used to spread an extra layer of butter on our nut butter sandwiches. That's optional, and then I like to put almond butter on mine. Then I place on there the arugula, a nice little bit of arugula on one side, and on the other side I place my favorite red peppers. My favorites are Mama Lil's Picked Hungarian Goathorn Peppers, and I liberally put those on. Sometimes maybe I'll put a little sprinkling of salt if I feel like it too, and then I put it together. You can either eat it like that, or some people I think grill these things too. It's just delicious, and I was inspired to do this when I realized when I go to restaurants, many times there'll be peanuts in a dish or nuts in a dish, and peppers. I thought, "Well why can't I be doing this with a peanut butter sandwich?" I just tuck this stuff in, and it's really good. Suzy Chase: I can't even imagine it in my head. That's how crazy it sounds.Kate McDermott: Give it a try. Some of the peanut sauces that we have, like with spring rolls, sometimes those will have a little bit of sweetness to it. If you like, this is not mentioned in the book; this is just for you, you could also take a little tiny pinch of sugar and put that in the sandwich also just to bring it up a little bit.Suzy Chase: Fall is hearty soup season, and I love a good bean soup. What are your three ways to cook beans?Kate McDermott: Okay.Suzy Chase: Hit it.Kate McDermott: You got it. The first way is to soak the beans overnight, the long way. Actually, you bring them to a boil and then soak them overnight, and then the next day you cook them until they're soft. The second way is to bring them to a boil for five minutes, then let them sit for a little bit, and then you cook them for another couple hours. That seems to work just fine too, so that's the medium way if you have forgotten to soak your beans overnight. The third way is to get out the can opener and open the can. That works really well too.Suzy Chase: That's my favorite.Kate McDermott: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Suzy Chase: I just got a ham hock from my butcher too. You just put it in some white beans, and-Kate McDermott: Yes.Suzy Chase: Oh my gosh, the best.Kate McDermott: I was just visiting some friends. We had a lovely meal of black-eyed peas, which they did in the same way of soaking the beans and then they did a ham hock, but even if you didn't have that, I think pork belly's always good.Suzy Chase: Oh yes, totally. So I'm not sure why, but one thing I hate to make is salad. You have the perfect answer to my disdain for salad-making-Kate McDermott: I do?Suzy Chase: The Make-Ahead Layered Salad. Describe that.Kate McDermott: Well, that salad is a very retro salad from the '50s and '60s. You really just shred lettuce, you chop pretty much whatever vegetables you want, and make sure that you have different textures in there so that there's some crunch as well. Then, you kind of seal it all in with a mayonnaise topping and let it sit in the fridge overnight or for some hours, and it's ready to go. You just sort of toss it all together if you'd like, and that's it. It's made its own dressing pretty much, and it's like salad ready to go.Suzy Chase: What do you put in the mayonnaise part of it?Kate McDermott: So, the dressing for the Make-Ahead Layered Salad is super easy. You take a couple cups of mayonnaise, which sounds like a lot but remember that this is a big salad and it's going to be spread out quite liberally. Put in some sugar for sweetening it up a little bit, some seasoning salt. One of my favorites is Spike, and some garlic powder. You can either mix it together or you can spread the mayonnaise completely over the top and then sprinkle all of those dry ingredients over the top of the mayonnaise. It'll kind of seep in there and flavor it, and then also you put some Parmigiano-Reggiano on top of that. It's quite good. Now right before you serve it then, sprinkle it with some crumbled hard-boiled eggs and bacon. It's always better with bacon, right?Suzy Chase: I'm going to make that for Thanksgiving.Kate McDermott: I think you'll like it.Suzy Chase: I can do that the night before. Kate McDermott: Yes you can.Suzy Chase: Well there you go. On page 204, you write about how to roast a chicken. I made that chicken the other night, and I always forget how easy it is to roast a chicken.Kate McDermott: That is so true. When I was a young cook, I was petrified of roasting a chicken for some reason. When I finally just took the bird by the legs and decided to do it, I found that it's very, very simple. The recipe that I have in "Home Cooking" really requires nothing more than a vessel to put the chicken in. Just salt and pepper it both on the inside and the outside. If you want to stuff it with whatever fresh herbs you have; it could be rosemary, oregano, sage, whatever you have. If you want to put some garlic on the inside, you can do that. If you don't anything other than salt and pepper, that's fine too, and you toss the bird into an oven that is at 350. 90 minutes later, it comes out and it's done. You can baste it if you want; you don't have to baste it. It comes out every time.Suzy Chase: I made little slits and I stuck roasted garlic into the slits.Kate McDermott: That's a classic. That is so yummy.Suzy Chase: It was so good, and then the next day I made ramen for my little boy, so it's great.Kate McDermott: So you had the chicken to be able to put in it.Suzy Chase: Yeah. Kate McDermott: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Suzy Chase: So good. For my segment called My Last Meal, what would you choose for your last supper?Kate McDermott: A simple piece of bread hot out of the oven slathered with butter would be right up there, and a perfect peach with juice with juice that would be dripping down my chin that we could all share and pass it around, and maybe some home-pressed cider. I would want to be sharing this with lifelong friends and of course my son, and hopefully I would have some grandchildren at that time. Hint, hint, Duncan if you're listening.Suzy Chase: No pressure.Kate McDermott: No pressure at all. I think that last meal is more who you're sharing it with and the memories. Quite frankly, I hope I go out laughing.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Kate McDermott: You can find me at artofthepie.com. I am on Instagram @KateMcDermott, and I am on Twitter @KateMcDermott. On Facebook, you can either find me at Art of the Pie and then my personal page is Kate McDermott.Suzy Chase: You and Marion Cunningham agreed that the kitchen table is one of the most central places in the home. That is so homey and comforting just like the recipes in this cookbook. Thanks so much for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.Kate McDermott: Thank you so much, Suzy, and to your listeners, just cook. It's easy.Suzy Chase: Follow me on Instagram @CookeryByTheBook. Twitter is @IamSuzyChase, and download your Kitchen Mixtapes, music to cook by on Spotify at Cookery by the Book. As always, subscribe on Apple Podcasts.

In what critics* hail as, "The Breaking Bad of the modern podcast generation" our host comes back from his sojourn to continue on with season 3! What could possibly be more important to making people sound intelligent than having a conversation about the NFL malfeasance surrounding it's concussion history and protocol? Well I'll tell you-- having a conversation about political discourse in 2018! And buddy, we've got 'em both for ya. So give it a listen and have some faith that we won't bludgeon you with our political ideologies. You just might come away entertained and with a new perspective on a couple things that are actually timely! *My aunt

We are all on a journey with money and the Bible talks a lot about money so because of this It is very important for us as Marriages after God to be able and willing to discuss money with each other and how to manage money in marriage. In this episode, Jennifer and I ask each other questions about money and we give candid on the spot answers to those questions. We discuss our individual view and relationship with money. We talk about how we were raised with money and what we were taught about it. And we share our fears that surround money. -- Take our 31-day marriage prayer challenge today and join the 1000's of couples who have done it. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com/products/thirty-one-prayers-bundle -- FOR MORE MARRIAGE ENCOURAGEMENT https://marriageaftergod.com https://instagram.com/marriageaftergod SHOP MARRIAGE RESOURCES https://shop.marriageaftergod.com FOR WIVES https://unveiledwife.com https://facebook.com/unveiledwife FOR HUSBANDS https://husbandrevolution.com https://facebook.com/HusbandRevolution READ: Hey we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. And today, we're gonna ask each other random questions about finances and money. Hey, thanks for joining us this week for another episode of Marriage After God. We're excited to have you. As usual, we wanna invite you to subscribe to our channel, so you get notified whenever we upload new content. Today's episode includes questions that we came up with, that we haven't shared with each other just yet. Just about finances and money, but we know that you guys have questions too, and we can answer them in a future episode of Marriage After God, so be sure to leave those comments, and leaving your questions about finances and money. So, before we get started, I want to start off with a disclaimer. We are not financial advisors. No way. So, we're not giving stock suggestions, or anything like that. We're just gonna ask each other questions about our experience with money, and I actually have no clue what your questions are, and you don't have any clue what mine are. These things always make me nervous. I like to be prepared. So, we do these episodes every once in a while, but these are gonna be really candid answers from our own life. Which, I feel like is really helpful for the listener, because I feel like they're gonna relate to us and understand what we've been through, or what we're going through currently. And so, I do but I don't like these. And they're hard 'cause we do cut out the pauses 'cause sometimes we have to think about them. Yeah. We're like uh let me think about that for a sec. But, hopefully what we wanna offer to you guys is just an inside perspective on where we've gone in life with finances and money, and where we're coming from and what God's teaching us, and maybe they'll be some funny stuff in here. I actually don't know. Some reality and some encouragement. Yeah, and 'cause our heart is that as marriages after God we would have hearts that are yielded to God in every aspect of our life. One of them being money, and to be honest we are on a journey with money. Yeah. The Bible talks a lot about it, but today we're just gonna talk about the journey we've been on. Yeah. So, let's get started. Do you wanna do the first question or do you want me to do the first question? Let me do the first question. Okay, you do the first question, and then I'll do mine. Okay, so my first question is were you taught good money habits like savings, building up a savings account by your parents? Or I guess the question is, who is your biggest influence? That is a great question actually. So, let me think for a second, I have a terrible memory and you know this. Okay, so first thing I remember is my Mom did definitely teach me how to use a checkbook. Does any use checks anymore? I don't know. I was taught how to do the reconciliation in the back pages and write them. What comes in, what goes out. Yeah, so I do remember that. I remember them opening a bank account for me, and me putting money in it and learning to save. So, I think the basics. I remember saving when I was a little kid like $100. I don't remember how I got all the money. That's a lot. I had a box, it was this wood box, and every dollar I'd get I'd get it, and I'd wet the dollar and flatten it out. Oh my goodness, I didn't know this about you. I would flatten the dollar out and I'd make it perfectly crisp, and I'd let it dry and then I would put it in the box, and I'd have them all organized and I'd have a rubber band around them, and I saved up all these $1's and $5's and $10's. Okay, this type of personality explains a lot about how we organize our finances now. You never heard this story before? I've never heard this story before, and I feel like now that I know, it makes sense because how you organize... You're like, I'm gonna change some of these questions I have for you. No, no, no, but as I see it, 'cause you lead us in our finances, and you organize our budgeting and all of that, and it's meticulous, and I feel like you've been really good at that. SO, I don't know who taught me that. Okay. So, somehow money was talked about. I remember my parents giving me a dollar at church to put in the tithe. So, I feel like they gave me the foundational stuff, the basic stuff. Good for them, that's awesome. So, yeah, I think they might have given me more, they had to of. But, I just don't remember it, all the details. Real quick, does Target have anything to do with any of these questions? I didn't actually ask any. Okay, good. I'm just kidding. Didn't think about Target. For all the wives out there. But CostcoI'm just kidding. Okay, here's your first question. Okay. Okay, what was your view of money growing up? Well, I remember it being kind of this elusive thing of we never had it. I don't wanna go as far as saying we were poor growing up, but I often heard my parents say things like that, and things have changed now in their life and in ours. But, I just remember having very little, and I remember personally when I started working and getting my own income, I protected it. But, I spent it, but it was mine. Yeah. I didn't necessarily share it, I wasn't super generous. I tithed here and there, but it wasn't consistent. So, would you feel like you were, based off the question you asked me, were you taught about money, other than just hearing about lack of it, or not ever enough? I don't remember my Mom sitting down specifically with me to show me certain things, but it was kind of like we'd be at the grocery store and I'd be like hey can I fill out your check for you? 'Cause I remember checks back then too. And she would let me, and she would show me what boxes to fill out. And then, when I was a teenager, probably like 13 or 14, she also opened up a savings account for me, and so I got to get familiar with putting money in the bank. So, we both had those foundational things. Yeah. So, there is a second part to this question. Oh no. So, I was asking about your view of money, but what was your view of giving growing up? Yeah, so shared a little bit about that, and I remember it just being a little bit harder for me. It's weird, it wasn't as hard to if I was gonna buy a gift for someone. Like, I saw value in that, and then give it to them. But, just giving someone money or even giving the church money, I justified it by saying well, I'll serve with my time or my energy. I'll go work in the children's ministry. Yeah, I don't need to give money. I remember us having conversations about that. Yeah, I just saw the benefit of that, but I guess because I always thought money was tight, or it was so little that I had to kind of keep it. Yeah. To myself. Keep it really close. Keep it real close. I was controlling over my money, and not in a healthy way. And we're all at a certain place when it comes to money and our perception of it, and it comes from how we were raised, or things that we've experienced. So, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Okay, so my next question for you is going into marriage and being the husband and I don't know if you felt the weight of responsibility with finances and having to provide. But, did you have any fears going into marriage and managing our finances? No, I didn't know what managing our finances looked like. Yeah, we hadn't experienced it yet. 'Cause we hadn't experienced it yet. But, I feel like I might be a little unique, maybe not but I don't feel like I've thought too much about money. I remember that we had lots of conversations about it, I remember even telling you when we got engaged, hey I may not have a lot of money, I may not ever be able to buy you anything. But I'll love you. But, I'll be here for you and we'll figure it out. And that was just me being honest, I didn't know what kind of money we would make, or if we'd ever be wealthy or have a home. I didn't know any of that stuff. But, I wasn't worried about it either. So maybe in a unhealthy way I didn't think about money at all. Like no concern? Like no concern. I don't know, maybe that's a healthy thing too, I've never been too concerned about money as a whole. But, no so going into marriage I don't think it was a anxiety of mine like oh I gotta figure out money stuff. Again, we've learned a lot over the years of like how much we need to focus on it, and manage it well and steward it well. But, no I'd say early on when we were getting married it wasn't something that was on the forefront of my mind. Other than we needed it to go to Africa. Yeah, so just to let people know who are listening, we jumped started our marriage by jumping into missionary ministry. We went to Africa for four months. Yeah, we traveled around, went to Africa and stuff. And so, our finances were kind of unique jumping into marriage because we relied on the support of other people while we were traveling internationally. We had no money. We didn't have money. Like legitimately no money. We raised money to go to Africa. We raised money and then we took it, but then while we were there, and leading up to that, we had our jobs leading up to the time that we left. Which was about two or three months of marriage, but then we heavily relied on the support of others. Not only that, but we when we moved to Florida for a bit, just to give a little bit of background, there was a season where I was working full-time for free in the ministry that we were apart of, the missionary organization. And you were working part time, we had no kids then, and we still had no money. We were broke. We were so broke of course because I was even being paid, and you were getting paid minimum wage. Yeah. In Florida, which is like less than normal. And part time. I remember us being in our car one night, or one afternoon and we had no money for gas. Yeah, we're gas less. We're just like okay. God's taken care of us every step of the way though. I'd say your parents were a huge blessing to us during those times because they've always supported us and been open handed with their finances, and that day specifically you called your Mom. I remember that day my Mom gave me $20. and I was so embarrassed, and I said just don't tell her, what did I say? I said don't tell her that we're homeless, okay that was the same day that we were in transition that's a good word, transition from one house to another. But we didn't have another house yet. Yeah. We couldn't stay at the house we were at. They weren't our houses, they were people letting us stay at their places, because we were trying to serve as missionaries, and we were traveling a lot, and it was just a really interesting time. God took care of us, but I would say it was foolish. Yeah, looking back at it yeah. Again the negative part of me not paying attention or considering our finances. Yeah. I should of changed that scenario. And we did, God convicted our hearts and put us on a whole journey of changing our thought process on money and our responsibility with it. Yeah, but I did tell you don't tell her that we're homeless, just tell her that we need the money for gas. Yeah And it all worked out, we got a place that night it was all great. Yeah we did, it was awesome. So, God was lookin' out even when we weren't. He's faithful even when we're not. Even when we're not yeah. But that's where we started our journey of money is just experiencing that side of it. So, let me get to my second question for you. Okay, this is a question for you, but it's about me. Oh. Yeah, so what is one area I can grow and mature in when it comes to money? Okay, that's really funny because I have a similar question for you about you. Oh then we should make yours the number three for me. Okay, so what's one area that I want you to grow in? That you think I could grow or mature in when it comes to money? I think sometimes, okay, so you have this part of your personality that loves to research. Like, you spend a lot of time on researching things. Which is a really good. Can be really good. It is really good I think. The downside is because you do so much research, and you look at reviews and you look at what other people are saying, and you look at price value, when you do actually go to make a purchase it's a really good purchase. Sometimes really expensive purchase, or sometimes it's something that we think we need when we don't necessarily need that one, or that thing. So you're saying I buy the more expensive thing because... It had the better reviews. And it's gonna last longer, or it's a better value. We have all these justifications of what we walk through when we buy a purchase. Which I do, I do that. Yeah, so and you don't do it all the time, but when you do make those bigger purchases, I don't know. So you're saying having a little bit more of a sober mind about certain things. It's not like I make big purchases all the time. No. But when I do often instead of just going with the more affordable or something that will fit what we need, I'm gonna go and get, 'cause I'm looking for value. Yeah. And I'm like, well I need to spend a little bit more to get the value I'm looking for. And sometimes that also hangs us up on the purchase that we need to make. For months. Yeah, because you're like I need to do my research. That could be good though, the slowness of it. I know, I know, but that's why I said it's like a catch 22. Maybe getting more sober about my expectation of the value. Yeah that's good. And being okay with less when it matters. I don't know, thinking faster and wiser and slower and smarter all at the same time. All the things, all the same time. Yeah, I know what you're saying. No one's gonna understand what we're talking about, but I get it. If you have an example. I don't know to put you on the spot. I don't, I'm trying to think. No, I don't. Okay, so give you an example something I'm thinking about. Okay. Like, I wanna buy a lawnmower. And I could go down to the thrift store and pick up a lawn mower for like $25. Call around, ask a friend. I could call around and see if any friends have an extra one I could borrow or buy. But, the way I think is I'm gonna go look online and be like well if I'm gonna be using this every weekend, I might as well get a new one. But if I'm gonna get a new one and spend that kind of money, I might as well look for the best one. It just keeps going up and up. And I haven't bought a lawnmower yet. And you haven't bought a lawnmower yet. That's a great example. And this has been a few weeks. Yeah, okay. Okay, I will think about buying a lawnmower in a better way. Like, not go buy the best one, and I might call some friends up soon. Actually someone actually told me they might have one. Oh really? I was gonna say, you might buy one and then it breaks down and you can learn how to fix it. It's good all around. That's true. Time waster. Yeah I know. Okay. Okay. That was your question for me about you. That was my question for you about me. Really confusing okay. Okay my next question is, throughout our marriage I guess for a little back story if people don't know us, we got debt free and we've been really committed to remaining debt free. But, one thing you've been really adamant on, even from the beginning of our marriage was no credit cards. Right. So, I guess my question is why Aaron? Why so adamant about that? Even times where I had good justifications or excuses why no we should do this, we'll get miles you're like no. So, let's be honest, you're right I've been so adamant about no credit cards, but we did get a credit card. We did. Just a couple years ago. For about a year. For about a year, it was an Amazon credit card, because they had such good points and like all the things. Okay. And, we did that to buy a house, and we needed credit because we literally had no credit, 'cause we've never had credit cards. Yeah. And, it made it harder which was fine. What made it harder? What do you mean? Not having credit. Oh, yeah. No credit score made it harder to do the loan thing and so I was like hey let's get a credit card, and we were just gonna do like one or two things on it. It became a habit over that year. Just to build credit, and then what happened was every thing we were spending on our debit, we now put on our credit. And even though we were paying it, what happened was our way of spending money even on all the normal things got so out of whack, because what we would do is we'd spend on the credit card, and then by the time we paid the credit card, the money that would of been spent a month ago, hadn't been spent yet. And so by the time we pay off the credit card, now we're back to zero. We're always playing catch up. Catch up yeah. And I hated that, and I finally like cut the credit card up, and it took us like a couple months to detox from using the credit card. Well one thing that I noticed with the credit card was that there was this access to it felt like free money. It's the same concept as poker chips. The reason casinos will play with poker chips versus cash, is because poker chips are less painful to put on the table. Interesting. They're all the same size, maybe they're different colors. But, it doesn't feel like money. And so you spend more. I think Dave Ramsey also shared this tip once is when you're spending with cash, you're feeling it going through your hand, you're not gonna go waste it on that $8 Mocha, you'll just get a black coffee or whatever. $8, yeah. Yeah, but when you're constantly using your debit card you don't feel it as much. But, it's even more true with credit cards I feel like. Well it is, and also with credit cards, they do the whole points thing, and it gives you enough of an incentive to spend more. Which we don't need incentives to spend more. We're human. We have enough incentive to spend more, so that's why I've always been afraid of credit cards, I just knew that debt and credit cards were so dangerous. So before and after that year that we had a credit card, that's why you're so adamant about it? Like having the credit card proved exactly why I hate credit cards, even though we were doing it the right way. Anyone would say, oh yeah, get a credit card, just make sure you pay down the balance, and not keep a balance and all that. We never paid a penny of interest, but that doesn't make it anymore of a healthy habit. We were so backwards on the way our money was being spent, that it like gave me anxiety. That's true, I remember you really frustrated over it. And then the detoxing, it took a few months, like we were negative a bunch, because we were playing catch up on the way our money was coming in, and the way the money was going out. And we forgot how to spend correctly. Yeah, it was totally different, we were like what we have to look at our budget again. We have to like look at how were... So, I just hate credit cards. Okay. And so that's just the reality of it. Okay. You ask me my next question. Next question, this is also in the beginning of our marriage. I thought you were gonna say it's also about me. No, in the beginning of our marriage, I remember us praying that we would make more money so that we could give more money and be more generous. You remember that? Mm-hmm. And over the years, we've had opportunities to do so. Mm-hmm. Has your or our perception of our giving changed at all since then? Yes, I mean mine definitely, I don't know if your has increased because I feel like you've always been a really generous person, and what you shared in the beginning of that question of praying that prayer I feel like you've taught me a lot and led me a lot in this area of generosity, and I feel like that was one way where you taught me in a really special way 'cause it's not like you just sat down with me and pointed out where I was not being generous. You sat down and said hey we should be praying about this. And so we prayed, we lifted our request up to God, and anyways I just really feel like over the years, He's answered our prayer, He's been faithful to show us different ways of giving different opportunities. He's invited us a lot to just participate in serving the body and being generous. And, I feel like more of a generous person because of that. Awesome. Yeah. I used to see generosity, the pinnacle of generosity, as giving more. That's why I prayed this, 'cause I truly wanted to increase in what we had, not so that I can have more but so that I can give more. That was a reality of how I felt and believed. And as we've matured and gotten better jobs and now we just making money from our books, and trying to be more generous and giving more something that I've changed in is not that I don't wanna give more, I still have a heart to give and wanna be generous. But what I've found is I can get lazy in giving in the other ways of my time, my energy, my resources, my love, my other things. Because I can give money. Not that giving money is a bad thing, but I just felt like God showed me that there's lots of ways that he desires us to give. And that there's other ways that could be more valuable, than just giving someone $10 or $100 or something. That I could give them something more valuable than money. Almost like showing me that money's... Like what is true generosity? It's not just money. Well, and not just true generosity, what God is actually desiring us to give. And not that, like I said, the money, or time or none of those are intrinsically different or like bad or better. But, seeing the true value in things. Because I can give all my money as it says in the Bible, and have not love and I'm nothing, right? And so, it doesn't matter what I'm giving, it matters why I'm giving and who I'm giving for. And so, he's just been transforming my perception on giving and I could default to like oh let's just give so and so money, or how about I give them a whole day of me helping them. What do they actually need? Yeah, what do they actually need? And money could be it, but am I using that as a crutch in my giving? That's really good, yeah. Which is a weird thing to think about. Well, I wanna add to that first part of the question about us praying for God to give us more so that we can give more. I remember specifically you mentioning we're not gonna wait for him to give us more, we're gonna start now. And I think that's really important especially for our listeners to hear, because I think sometimes we can always be in a season of waiting. And we're like we have to wait for God to give us more in order to give more when we can give out of what we have even if it's a little bit. And so I just wanna encourage them with that. Yeah. 'Cause we found it to be truly a blessing even when you give when you barely have. Well and the Bible says that exactly. You know, it talks about Jesus talks about the woman who gives her last mite. And he says she's giving more out of her poverty than you did out of your wealth. Yeah. And so there's this perception that we have of well I can't give until I have more to give. Which doesn't make sense, because unless we have a heart of giving, we're never gonna give, because it's never gonna feel like enough. 'Cause that's the chase of numbers. There's always another number to jump to. So, that's how I've changed in this, but I think you're right. You've gotten much more generous, and I feel like I've changed in what I see as generosity. Yeah. Making sure that my heart is right and not just I can give money. That's really good. Which could be so cheap in the Kingdom mindset. Or, perfectly generous it's all how we do it. Yeah. Your question. Okay I'm up next. So, did you ever have a goal of how much you wanted in your savings account or in our savings account? Has there ever been a number? This probably goes back to my first answer about not thinking about money very often. No. No. I don't think I've ever had a number. There's been specific times in our life when we're saving for something specific. So we needed a number, yeah. Yeah, but I don't think I've had like a oh I want $10,000 in savings or I want $5,000 in savings. Even though Dave Ramsey says you should have a certain amount in there. I think it's like $2,000 or something emergency fund. Yeah, I think there's a minimum emergency fund, but then there's like six months savings of payroll or whatever. But, no I don't believe I've ever had a specific number in mind. Okay. But, maybe I should I don't know. I don't know. We'll let the listeners tell us if I should have a specific number in mind. Okay. Okay here's a question for you. This is kind of a fun one, and it's also maybe it's a question they could be asking each other. Okay, that's good. That are listening. What is the best thing you've ever spent money on? And here's my catch with this, is I'm trying to point out that sometimes we look for value in things, and we think it's gonna be there, but then it's not what we think it's gonna be. So I wanna see if you can recall oh the best thing I've ever spent money on was? The best thing I ever spent money on was oh man. I feel like I know what kind of thing it will be. What kind of thing? Yeah. Well, the only thing that really comes to mind are two things and they're both jewelry orientated. Jewelry, okay. One thing you bought me. Would this be like a typical thing for women and jewelry? Actually I think you bought me both, so I can't even use those examples. Why not? I don't know. Oh 'cause I bought them. 'Cause you bought 'em. It's the ring that I have now as my wedding ring. You bought it for me on my 10 year wedding anniversary. Yeah but you didn't buy it I guess. No. Well, if it's our money then maybe you did. I can't think, I guess the couch? That was a good purchase. That was a good couch. Okay, so let me give you some background. The couch behind us? Yes. Yeah it's a nice couch. So, just some back story real quick. I was pregnant with Olive and we had just moved to Central Oregon, and somebody had given us this old 1970's floral couch it was bright yellow. Smelled like cat pee. Oh my gosh it smelled so bad. And we had it for almost a year I think. Yeah. I really liked that couch though. It was really stiff, and I was over it and I told Aaron can we please, please, please, please, please buy new couches? And, what's really funny we're renting this little tiny house, like it was like a little cottage bungalow style. What was it, it was like 1,100 square feet? I feel like it was smaller than that. But anyways, the living room was not very big, but we went to this furniture outlet place I sat on every piece of furniture until I found the one that I wanted. I was probably like six months pregnant, and I found these couches. And I've loved them, they've been one of the best things we ever bought. And it barely fit in that house. Yeah, it didn't fit in that house, but we had them in there. Yeah. It was the most money we spent on furniture. Usually we would get given furniture or we'd go to the thrift stores and get furniture. It was our first house purchase of furniture. And you know what? If people read The Unveiled Wife, they would know that our very first couch as a married couple was an inflatable blue blow up couch. Plastic couch. Yeah. That it deflated. That deflated while we watched T.V. The bottom part did. So, couches is like a thing for us? I guess so you guys. We had this beautiful ugly blue couch, from like the '70's in Florida. So the things with the couches that we have now, I even remember the day that the delivery guys dropped it off and unboxed it. Like that's how powerful this purchase was for me. So, I'm really happy with it. So, I actually that you were gonna answer like trips we've been on. Oh. Like adventures. I didn't even think about that. That's what I thought you were gonna say. I knew that you would probably answer. Okay. Although I like that too. Your biggest thing is spend money on memories. Yeah, and these couches have been awesome. They're comfortable and the kids play on them, make forts out of them. They're huge pillows so yeah, building forts is like awesome. They're like perfect fort couches. What's funny though is the pillows are so big, they're super heavy. Anytime they wanna build a fort they're like gung-ho about it, and then the moment we say 'kay clean up they're like we can't they're too heavy. Yeah they can take 'em off and build a fort, but they can't put 'em back it's difficult. Okay, anyways. Okay so you have one more question for me. Okay, so what's funny about this is my last question... Let me guess, it's the exact same one as me? No, it happens to be what was your worst purchase ever? Because you're such a researcher and you go for the top notch thing. So, okay. You gotta have a bad one in there. It's not gonna be worse in the sense that you're thinking like a bad thing I bought. It's more in like I regretted. Yeah. Like what is it called, buyer's remorse? Okay. I've had that several times. Yeah you have. So, and you're probably gonna remember this story. The paintball gun that I bought. -That's exactly what I was thinking about. I knew that was what you were thinking about. And the reason, I've had plenty of remorseful purchases in my life not gonna lie. But because the Lord used it to teach me something about myself. Yeah. When it comes to not just money but where I find my value. And I was gonna going through a season we were financially strapped, I didn't feel very successful at what I was doing in life. Our marriage was a little like It was more than Okay, alright. We were drowning. I can only laugh about that now because we are so far from that place now. Yeah, not back then it wasn't funny. No. But, I wanted to feel successful again. I wanted to feel needed and useful and valuable and I did use to be part of a paintball team when I was younger. You remember when you were first hanging out with me, I was working at a huge paintball park in California. The first day I met your Mom was at one of our tournaments. Yeah, and I was good and I loved it and it was a very short season in my life, and so when I'm in this season I'm feeling like a little sad and depressed and unsuccessful. And so I was clinging to an idea of who I was and who I could of been and so I said hey I wanna buy a paintball gun and I wanna get back into that hobby. What's funny about paintball is it's not a cheap hobby. You don't buy cheap paintball guns to go do a hobby of paint balling. You definitely would never buy. So, like I said, I bought a really nice paintball gun and all the equipment and all the stuff, and it was really surprising because you were like okay. You let me even though you probably thought it was such a stupid idea. I didn't see the value in it at all. And I went one time and I felt the Lord tell me why are you doing this? Why did you go spend all this money and this is not what you want. How long did the gun sit in the box for? Maybe a couple months. And it just sat in the box, I only used it one time it was brand new, and I finally came to my senses and the Holy Spirit was like you are looking for something in the wrong place. And the only reason you bought this is because you feel this way and you're going through this and I had to repent. I came to you and I said I'm sorry. You said I feel like an idiot. That's actually what I said. I said I feel like an idiot. I said I think the only reason I wanted to do this and buy this is because I don't feel successful. And I had to admit to that, and you forgave me. And you're like I'm really glad that you're deciding to get rid of this 'cause I did not want you to do that. And I was like can you sell it for what it's worth? And no I didn't I lost money on it. Yeah. But that was a lesson that I learned in looking for value and security and fulfillment in something else other than God. And so that's why that sticks out to us, or to me specifically is that story is that was me buying a feeling or a notion about myself and trying to turn into something I wasn't and trying to fulfill myself through money. Yeah. Which doesn't work. Yeah don't do that. In any way ever. For anyone. For anyone. Yeah don't do that. The Bible tells us you cannot serve God and money. Yeah. You'll hate one and love the other, or you'll serve one and despise the other. You cannot do it. And so that's not the worst purchase I ever made, but that was on the top of the list. Most regrettable. Not most regrettable. Actually I look back and I thank God that he allowed me to do something dumb. In a safe way, 'cause it's not like I emptied our savings account. Yeah, I don't know back then it could have been pretty close. I guess you're right. You're right, it probably was. But you weren't paying attention to the savings accounts. I wasn't paying attention to the savings accounts so thanks. Ask me your last question now, we'll get the spotlight off of you. Okay what is one area you can grow in your relationship with money? I don't wanna say. I take the fifth. You can't. It's not a court of law, this is Marriage After God. Okay, so ready for some truth, some honesty? Yes. Okay, you already know this about me. I have this problem when I feel like we need to spend money for things especially if it's for the house or for the kids or whatever, and let's say I'm at Target or Costco or WholeFoods or whatever. Or online. Or online, and I see a few extras that I wasn't necessarily planning on buying or at least at this time, and I just go ahead and go get it without consulting you. I feel really bad about that, and I know it's an area that I need to grow in because there's been seasons where I am good at it, and I feel like I'm respecting the commitment that we've made to discuss purchases over a certain amount and then there's other times where I just disregard it, and I don't know why I do that. And you're not talking about a pack of gum or an extra pair of socks? Well I'll buy an extra pair of shoes for one of the kids, but they really don't need it, it's just they're really cute and they're right there on the end aisle at Target. How often does this happen? How many shoes does Olive need? I know, I know. We try and be pretty minimalist when it comes to the way that we live, but then there's times where I'm just like oh and I need this type of hand soap and laundry detergent and all of these extra things when I wasn't planning on making those happen that day. Truthfulness, transparency. Transparency, I think that's a good one. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we both do it though. We base it off of what we see as valuable. Yeah. Like oh this is an important purchase but our scales of value are so different from each other sometimes on purchases. Yeah. But, which is why we should discuss them more. Yeah. Which is actually something that we've just another level of honesty with our finances, we just recently are revisiting with each other because we get out sync. Yeah, we just went on date night and that was the topic of our conversation which is why we're doing this broadcast. Yeah, so we're out of sync right now, and so we're trying to get back in sync with each other of communicating. Just a rule of thumb something that we've instituted in our marriage and what we're talking about is that we've stopped doing, but what we used to do is we would discuss any purchase that was going to be over $50. Yeah. We would plan out things that we were trying to save money for and we just haven't been doing that lately and it hurts us. Yeah. And so we're gonna get back into that, we're gonna discuss be on the same page with each other on things that we want to spend money on. Needs versus wants. Yep, that's a big one. What we're trying to save for. Okay so we're done with our questions but I do have one more question that I wanna answer so that those listening know. Okay. So, we're writing this book Marriage After God, and we are dedicating a whole chapter to finances, and how it's foundational to a marriage after God, and I just wanted you to share a little bit about that before we close out. It is. There's a few things that are on the top of the list that cause divorce and destruction in marriages and it's sex and money. And so, if we don't have a sober Biblical mindset of money, if we don't understand what it's for, if we have the wrong perspective and relationship with money, it will destroy us. And we experienced that, and this is not just having it or not having it. This is whatever money you have what your relationship with it is. And even if you don't have money, what's your relationship with pursuing it. Because the Bible talks about not pursuing wealth or not toiling to pursue wealth. It says be wise enough to desist, right? It tells us that we can't serve God and money. Jesus talked more about money than he did about other things. Money is important to God. There's a wrong perspective that verse that says money is the root of all kinds of evil. But, it doesn't actually say that. See that's a wrong understanding of money. It's the love of money it's the root of all kinds of evil. And so having the correct biblical mature relationship with money and how when we have that, it becomes a tool, a powerful tool in the life of a marriage after God, in a marriage that's wanting to see God's Kingdom grow and their marriage be used for his purposes. Because then he can trust us. Yeah. The Bible tells us if you are faithful with the little you will be faithful with much. And so that's why we have a whole chapter in the book dedicated to finances and money and our relationship with it, and how we're suppose to view it and think about it and use it, and it's foundational, and if you just think money's not important as in a topic to consider and to truly evaluate in your life it's gonna control you versus you controlling it. Or maybe you know that money is a source of contention in your marriage, and you guys aren't being one. That is just a red flag that it is time to get on the same page. Go for a date night, talk about strategies on how you guys can organize your finances, and then commit to implementing the things that you discuss, and we're not perfect at this. Like we just said, we just went on a date night to talk about how we're out of sync right now and we need to refocus and just move forward in oneness and in unity when it comes to our finances. So that's really good. This isn't' just financial advice so that we can be wealthier and happier and all that. The point is the money and the resources God's given us, he desires for us to invest into his Kingdom. Now that looks a bunch of different ways, but he wants us to think that way. Like oh, my money and the things that God's given me are not just for my own benefit. They are for our benefit, but they're for the benefit of what he has given it to us to use for in growing our families, taking our families in generosity, in building the Kingdom through supporting missionaries or building an orphanage or adopting a child or whatever it is. Yeah. The money's for that. Yeah. For those things, the things that God's called us to not for our own pleasures. Now, we do get to enjoy all good things that God gives us. Right. But if that's our own focus, we're in the wrong place in the first place. So, yeah that chapter is an important one. Yeah. We actually been editing it right now. We're working on it right now. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us this week on money and finances. Yeah. We hope that we gave you a little bit of insight into just the conversations that you guys can be talking about it with each other. We hope that you have an incredible week, and we'll see you next time. [Aaron Smith] Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

“I’ll do it until it is not fun anymore.” How often have you heard or said that? Is that truly how we want to live our lives? Perhaps we should be substituting the word “fun” for “rewarding”? If you like the show, please check out our Official Morning Mindset Merchandise! Episode Transcription [INTRO] ♫ Trenches by Pop Evil ♫ *Alex* Welcome to Morning Mindset. A daily dose of practical wit and wisdom with a professional educator & trainer, Amazon best selling author, United States Marine, Television, and Radio host, Paul G. Markel. Each episode will focus on positive and productive ways to strengthen your mindset and help you improve your relationships, career goals, and overall well-being. Please welcome your host; Paul G. Markel. *Professor Paul* Alright, ladies and gentlemen, it's that time again. It's time for Morning Mindset and I am your host Paul Markel and I thank you for joining me once more, and yes, I am sipping on a cup of coffee. It's good coffee because why because life is too short to drink bad coffee and I think that many of you out there probably share that feeling with me. - Today, I'm going to talk about something that you probably never thought about, or phrase that you may have said and thought that it sounded reasonable or correct or wise or what-have-you. We do this a lot, we do this often in our lives. We regurgitate phrases, we say things that we have heard other people say because. - Well, we heard other people say it and it seems reasonable or it seems wise or it seems thoughtful or maybe it seems cool to say that or what have you and today's phrase is I'll do that until it's not fun anymore. I was having a conversation with a friend recently, and we were talking about our career paths and all the different things we do and you know, like like myself he does a recorded podcast show, but he also does training and he just coaching and you just a lot of different things and he said use the phrase he goes. - Well, you know, I'll do this until it's not fun anymore, and I said, you know, I actually had a business partner once somebody who's was working with me on a project and that person said to me when we started. He said he goes. Well, I'll tell you I want to tell you this I'll stick with you and I'll do this with you until it's not fun anymore, and of course at the time, you know I said, okay, you know, we're excited when you're a new you have a new project or new business or new anything. Everybody's full of, you know excited emotion and hope and they're like, oh this is going to be the greatest thing ever. It's going to be wonderful. - Everything's going to be great. You know, we're all Geniuses. We all have the best product in the world. Well after I don't know year or so maybe a little more. This person approached me and they said you know, I told you that I would do this with you until it wasn't fun anymore. Well, it's not fun anymore, and I'm not going to do it good to go my separate ways where we go our separate ways and and I accepted it and I said, okay, that's fine. I accept your your feelings are reasoning or what have you. - But the more I thought about it the more I thought that that phrase in and of itself and I'm sure you've probably heard it, you know from someone else or maybe you said it yourself, if you examine it honestly. Let's do this until it's not any fun anymore, or I'll do this job until it's not fun anymore. I'll work on this project until it's not fun anymore. Well, who is all about fun or what group of people or classification of people are all about fun children, right? - If you want children, you know to read if you want children to study if you when we want children to do something. What do we do? As parents, we turned it into a game because if you turned it into a game, it doesn't seem like it's a job or a chore and the kids like it they'll do it. We do this with songs. We do this, you know School teachers, Elementary School teachers, kindergarten teachers, whatever they turn everything into a game with Rhymes and prizes and rewards and what have you because when you're dealing with a child. - A child has very very immature emotions. They're very mentally immature because they haven't had time to mature yet, and so what we do is we make things fun or we turn things into games in order to get kids to do it. You can't explain to a six-year-old that it is their Duty and responsibility and it is the mature and right thing to do X. - Because the six-year-old doesn't have that kind of mentality. They don't understand Duty or you know, a moral obligation. They understand fun. What's fun and was not fun. If it's fun. I'll do it. If it's not fun, I won't do it. But at some point in our lives, we have to under you know, except the fact that you know, what not. - Everything is fun, and not everything that is perceived. As fun is going to always be that way now. I've in the last 10 years or so I ventured out and I've done television I've done I've been on other people's TV shows as a guest and I've done my own show. I've done radio. I've done live radio. - I've hosted shows I've done podcast shows have been pre-recorded shows and I've done a lot of things in front of the microphone or camera and to the person to someone who's never done that and I and through that I've gotten to know a lot of directors and producers and you know people who act and so forth and musicians as well, and people who are on the outside looking in. - You see someone who's on a TV show and you think "Man that is so cool. That would be so cool to do that, to be on a TV show. It really would or a radio show or to be a musician" or whatever, in the movies, and yeah, it can be it can be very exciting. It can be very fulfilling and rewarding and you know fun, you know, you get to participate you get to play with other people in front of a camera you get to do things you get to go places that other people but it's not always that way. - Sometimes it's really frustrating. Sometimes it's not fun. I know you're like no but man you get to be on TV or you get to do radio or you could do this for that and that's got to be fun. It's got to be great. Yeah, it can be but it is everything at some point in time. No matter what. Well, you know people who sell candy or people who make balloons or you know people who seem to have the most fun job in the world. - Every job or everything you do eventually becomes a job, and there will be times when you don't really want to do it. You'd really not do it. Or you'd rather not do another take sometimes you just don't want to do another take sometimes you feel like that was good enough. Let's do it, but you do it again. - Because you know that's what needs to be done. Now. It's not fun, but it's what needs to be done. So when we look at that phrase, I'll do this until it's not fun anymore or I'm willing to do it until it isn't fun anymore. Maybe instead of the word fun. We should be substituting the word rewarding and this is what I talked with my friend about. - Recently I said yeah, and he said yeah, that's what he said. He goes, you know, he goes I never thought about it quite like that, but he said you're right really I should substitute the word rewarding for the word fun because things can be difficult. Things can be tough. Things can be a bitch, but they could still be rewarding. - You know physical training lifting weights when you get underneath a barbell and you're trying to squat more weight than you ever have. That's not fun. That really isn't the definition of fun. Most people when they're at the in the hole at the bottom when they get down there. They're not thinking wow. - This is the most fun I've ever had. But we do it why because when we're finished we see the rewards. So the next time you hear someone say that or the next time you think that "Well I'll do this until it's not fun anymore." Maybe you should substitute the word 'Rewarding' and you could say honestly like I'm going to do this job until it is no longer rewarding. - I'm going to participate in this activity until it is no longer rewarding and that actually is a better way or a more honest way to look at it and I've had jobs that I started and I was excited and you know, I thought I was going to be able to do good things and then eventually that job was no longer rewarding and so I left so the next time you hear someone say that say hmm. You know fun is for children rewarding is for adults. I'm your host Paul Markel, and I will talk to you again real soon. [OUTRO] ♫ Trenches by Pop Evil ♫ *Alex* Thank you for spending time with us today. To get show notes, submit a topic request, for more from your host Paul G. Markel, visit MorningMindsetPodcast.com. That’s MorningMindsetPodcast.com. Please leave a review of this podcast on your favorite podcast player, we appreciate your time & effort, and we look forward to reading your honest feedback.

This week we're back with another edition of our Sweet Side Action. This time around, Matt takes the guys through the third scenario in the Doomsday Dawn Pathfinder Playtest material. "Third scenario?" you may ask, "What happened to the second one?" Well I'll tell you. The audio quality was simply not up to snuff, so we decided to put that episode on the shelf for the time being and move on. We apologize for any confusion, but this episode should more than make up for it. As always, please remember to subscribe, rate, and review us in your podcast distributor of choice. If you want to get in contact with us you can follow us on Twitter and Facebook, join the discussion on Reddit at SwissArmyScorpion.reddit.com, check out our website at SwissArmySocrpion.com to learn more about us, or shoot us an emaiil at SwissArmyScorpion@gmail.com. Thanks and enjoy the show!

Seasons come and Season go right? Well I'll be the first to let you know that when you are going through a difficult rough "motherhood" season, that little saying is hard to hear. In today's episode I  share with you how this season has been difficult for me and what I'm doing to make it just a little bit better. Check it out! Wanna connect more?  Email me at hello@uslovewe.com  Instagram me at uslovewe  Check out more at uslovewe.com and sheisyoupodcast.com  

As your relationship changes, are things getting better and better? Or have you gotten stuck along the way? If you get stuck - how do you get unstuck? And no matter what happens, how do you foster a sense of collaboration, of being on the “same team” with your partner? Today’s guests, Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson, have charted the course of how relationships develop - in fact, they created the “Developmental Model” for working with couples. Along with practical experience from having helped many couples, Ellyn and Peter are among the leaders in the field of training couples therapists to become more effective. Their book for therapists, In Quest of the Mythical Mate: A Developmental Approach to Diagnosis and Treatment in Couples Therapy is a classic that has stood the test of time - unlike many other books and theories that have come and gone. Today you’ll learn how to figure out where you’re stuck in your relationship, and how to be on the same team as you steer things back in a healthier direction. Also, please check out our first episode with Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson - Relationship Alive Episode 24: Why We Lie (and How to Get Back to the Truth) As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode has a cool new sponsor with a special offer for you - Songfinch.com. Songfinch.com helps you create an original song as a unique gift for any special occasion. You tell them what the occasion is, what emotions you want your song to evoke, what type of song you want, and give them a little bit of your story - and they bring your story to life with a radio-quality song that captures it all. Songfinch is offering you $20 off a personalized “Song from Scratch” if you use the coupon code ALIVE20 at checkout. Resources: Check out Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson's website Get Ellyn and Peter’s Guide to Super Negotiation for Couples and find out about their other resources FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict… Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) www.neilsattin.com/development Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Ellyn Bader and Peter Pearson. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Thank you so much for being with us here today on Relationship Alive. Pete Pearson: It's good to be here, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, really happy to be with you again, Neil. Neil Sattin: Awesome. Yes. It's been a while since episode 24, which was when we last spoke, when we're now in the 150s here. So ... Pete Pearson: Oh my goodness. Neil Sattin: I know, I know. So Pete, we were just talking, and we were talking about the ... Before we started officially, we were talking about this question about what people do when they get triggered, and you said, "That's not the most important question for people to be asking." And so I'm curious, from your perspective, what is the most important question that people should be asking? Pete Pearson: See, here's what's interesting, Neil. In just about every couple that we see, a couple will get an insight into where they're stuck, how they're stuck, and why they're stuck. And the next question almost inevitably is, "Well, what do we do about it?" And that's an understandable question. And I used to think, "Oh, they're asking me for advice. I'll give them advice about what to do right now." And then they will leave, they will practice what I just expressed, they will come back, and they will be on bending knee thanking me for my wisdom, intelligence, smarts, etc. Pete Pearson: What I discovered is, and they say, "God you're so wonderful, what other advice do you have? And we're gonna tell all our friends about you, because you're so smart. " Well what I discovered was, it didn't happen that often. But yet they asked, "What do we do about it?" And then I discovered, the what do we do about it is a good question, but it's a premature question. Really the question that comes before is, "How motivated are you to do something about it?" See, it takes a strong motivation, a bigger picture that pulls us forward, and that bigger picture, that stronger motivation is what allows us to unhook from those triggers. And if the motivation is puny, then no matter what I say that could be effective, will not be applied. Neil Sattin: Yeah, we had David Burns on the show, and he was talking about how surprised he often is that when it gets right down to it, a lot of couples that he's worked with, actually aren't willing to change. Even though they are coming to couples' therapy, they would prefer being stuck where they are, versus whatever's required to change the direction. Pete Pearson: Well I think that's true for one part of them. Here's what I mean. And I think the dilemma of change was summed up brilliantly by James Baldwin, the playwright and writer, when he said, "Nothing is more desirable than to be relieved of our affliction." And that's the motivation that brings couples into therapy. "Nothing is more desirable than to be relieved of our affliction, and nothing is more terrifying than to be divested of our crutch." And that I interpreted as, "nothing is more terrifying than to be divested of our coping mechanisms. Our self-protections." Pete Pearson: So couples are in a terrible bind. They want to be relieved of their affliction, yes, and it's terrifying to be divested of their coping mechanisms. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and you speak also in your work about the importance of both people recognizing that there's something in it for them, whatever it is they're experiencing. I'm thinking right now of the example you give of people, and we'll explain this a little bit more as we go, but people who are in a symbiotic and practicing relationship. Where one of them is working to be more independent from the other, and the other one is like, "No, come back here. Be with me." And it creates all of this tension and conflict and it's easy for the practicing partner to overlook the fact that they actually benefit a lot from that symbiotic welcome home, that they get from their partner, even though it's confounding them in their quest for independence. Pete Pearson: Ellen, you want to speak to that? Ellyn Bader: Yeah, but I'm not sure what the question is. I can speak about that type of couple, but Neil, did you have a question there? Neil Sattin: Yeah, good point. So the question in there, I think it was more of an observation that this is a situation where people are invested in the problem, or invested in the crutch as Pete was talking about. Maybe the question is, what are some strategies you have for helping people become aware of their role or of the crutch that they have in the moment, even if they think, for instance, that something is all about their partner's problem? Ellyn Bader: So I think what you're asking is, first of all, at least to me it's like, how does a person take a look at what they're doing that's getting in their own way, and can you get some acknowledgement that a particular thing somebody is doing, is actually getting in their own way of being able to realize the dreams that brought them together or being able to accomplish something they want to accomplish. So there's the question of, "Okay, what are some things you do to help somebody realize it?" So that's one piece. Then the second piece is what Pete was talking about, is "Can you lay out what it's going to take to change it, and then increase motivation? Or is there motivation to actually do the work or put in the effort." And then certainly you want the couple to be able to collaborate and work together on that process of change, so that they are reinforcing each other as they go through what is challenging and difficult for them to do. Ellyn Bader: So when you can get all three of those things really solidly in place, you're gonna have a couple that's motivated and working with you in the therapy process. When any one of those things, is missing, you're gonna have a much harder time, and therapists often report having sessions that are repetitive and seem to go nowhere and the couple comes in week after week with the same fight or the same dynamic. So I think you have to look at all three of those, and make sure that you've got them all in place. Neil Sattin: Yeah, where do you feel would be a great place to start? I mean, what's popping into my mind immediately, is your concept of developing a strong future focus for a couple, based on where they are developmentally? Pete Pearson: See, that's an important place when we start to figure out the steps for change. But to get people to own their part, I find now is, what I do in the first 10 or 15 minutes of the first session, is to have people own their part. But I do it in a rather indirect way. It's like it's traditional for most therapists, when a couple comes in for the first session to ask, "Why are you here," or "How can I help?" And at that point most couples launch of barrage of cross complaints about, "Well, I'm here because my partner is insensitive. They're a slob. They're not affectionate. They're not responsible. They don't follow through." Etc., etc. And so they trade blames. Pete Pearson: And then after a few minutes, everybody in the room is feeling miserable, I know that because I've been there so many times. And then I found there's a much better way to get to the bottom of what they struggle with without any blame at all. And I will say to them, "It's typical for most therapists to ask when we start the first meeting, is to say, 'why are you here?'" I say, "I don't want to do that, because it just ends up everybody blaming everybody. So what I'd like to do is ask you guys a diagnostic question, and it lets me know how well you've been listening to each other. Which also lets me know how hard you're gonna have to work in here. So Joe, tell me what do you think are Sue's major complaints about you are? And Sue, what do you think Joe's major complaints about you are? And it doesn't matter who goes first, because you both get a chance to express that." Pete Pearson: And at that point, Joe will say, "Well Sue will say that I'm too preoccupied with my devices. I don't spend enough time with the family. I don't call if I'm gonna be home for work. I just, and I want affection without being nice during the day or the evening, and ..." And then I'll say, "Oh, man, those sound really good, Joe. What else?" And he says, "Well, I think she thinks I'm not very careful with money." Well I'll say "Dynamite. Those are good. Joe, how confident are you on a scale of one to ten that Sue's gonna say you nailed it?" Joe'll say, "Well about a seven or eight." And then I'll say, "What those complaints you just mentioned, is there some legitimacy to her complaints?" And he'll say, "Well, yeah." But I don't go into detail. Pete Pearson: See at that point, and then I'll say, "So Sue, how good has been doing?" "Well he's been listening, and frankly, I think he's listened better than I thought. I'd give him about a seven or eight on that or maybe even a nine." "Sue, do you have any appreciation for Joe, listening so well to you? Now why hasn't he done anything is why you guys are here. But is there a part of you that appreciates that at least he's been listening?" And she'll say, "Well yeah." "Well tell him." "Joe I didn't know you listened so well. Thank you for listening." Pete Pearson: So instead of being defensive, now they're collaborating and giving each other compliments, and each of them, when they do that, have just laid out what the problems are by owning their stuff instead of having their partner do it for them. Almost nobody Neil, nobody wants to meet somebody and within 10 minutes start being ripped by their spouse about all their flaws and faults. All that does is create shame, embarrassment and guilt. But doing it this way, people claim their stuff for themselves, I don't have to work as hard, I get to understand the problems, and the atmosphere in the room is a whole lot better. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I can see how that would get things started off on the right foot. Both with giving you a sense of what's going on for them, and how well they listen, and also, the degree to which they're able to see their part or take responsibility for at least what they think their partner is complaining about with them. Pete Pearson: Exactly. And that can only be done in the first 20 minutes. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. That's perfect. I'm curious. Do you still ... You talk about the paper exercise in your book, The Inquest of the Mythical Mate. Do you still do that exercise with couples? Ellyn Bader: Actually, you're right where I was gonna go. Because that exercise is an absolutely fabulous exercise. In five minutes a therapist can see and then can help feedback to the couple where they break down. It's an exercise that's designed to help you and couples ... And a concept the we talk a lot about is the concept of differentiation. And basically, the way the exercise goes is the therapist hands the couple a piece of paper and asks them to hold it between them, and gives them up to five minutes to decide who gets to hold the paper without ripping or tearing it. They can do it verbally, they can do it non-verbally, they can do it anyway they like, but at the end of five minutes, decide who has the paper. Ellyn Bader: And then you get to sit back as the therapist, you get to sit back and watch for five minutes, and then in watching, you're going to be giving the couple feedback about how they do. And the exercise, I can give you a few highlights right now. It's a very wonderfully sophisticated exercise for getting to leverage stuck places in couples' relationships. But I mean, you're looking for whether people self-define. Whether they avoid conflict. Whether they're able to go into the conflict. Whether they have skills to negotiate and move a conflict forward. Ellyn Bader: And so when you can talk to a couple about, "Hey, here's what I saw. Does this make sense? Here's what I think each of you did that was positive and great and effective, and here's where I think you're stuck, or here's where I see you getting stalled. And usually what you see in terms of how couples are getting stalled in that exercise, are similar to what they do at home, that prevents them from solving problems or sets them up to be angry at each other. And it's a very not-threatening, very sort of collaborative process that you can get into with couples when you do that exercise with them. Neil Sattin: Yeah, and what I loved about reading your book, was not only the recognition that I had about, "Oh, okay. Yeah. I recognize having been in a relationship that was stuck in this place or that place," and let's, before we go too much further, we'll define them so that people know what we're talking about. But I also love PART 1 OF 3 ENDS [00:17:04] Neil Sattin: how, I think it's easy to, let's say, someone here says, "Well, I'm going to try that with my partner. Let's grab this paper and see if we can figure it out." And then for some reason they can't or they have a huge eruption or at an impasse to feel like, "Wow, we must be really horrible as a couple because we couldn't even do this paper exercise right." Neil Sattin: But what I love is that it just is simply a way of getting insight into where you are, but that each place where you might be stuck simply represents a place where you need to grow and growing past that place gives you a pathway to a new level of intimacy and being able to handle conflict better and being able to stand really strongly in who you are while still enjoying intimacy with your partner. Ellyn Bader: Oh, absolutely and one of the things that I think is so valuable about it is that it's easy when you're in the midst of it with your partner and you're like going home after work and you're having fights or you're not getting along well on weekends or you're fighting over disciplining the kids. It's easy to think you have a whole lot of problems, but when you can find the leveraged place, the place that repeats, and you learn how to do that differently, then you start doing it differently in all the different areas that you have conflict. So you don't actually always have to go back and solve every single problem that you think that you have if you change the process of how you talk and the process of how you approach things that are stressful. Neil Sattin: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. How much do you feel like awareness, before we dive into it, briefly, of the developmental model, how much do you think that awareness is helpful for a couple to be able to see, like, "Okay, this is the span of how couples develop looks like and this is where we're at." Is that enlightening or confining? From a couple's perspective versus the therapist's perspective. Ellyn Bader: I can tell you what the therapists in my online training program report. And so, I have therapists who work with me, basically, who are in countries all over the world and many of them report that their clients feel relieved when they see the process. We have little brochures that we use and that a lot of therapists give to their clients which layout the stages and sometimes they'll send a couple home to look at it and figure out where they are. Sometimes they'll just talk about it. But when couples can see, hey, there is kind of a normal progression that a lot of relationships go through and either we're right on track, which is sometimes the case, or hey, we got stuck here and this is what our challenge is so that we can move forward. And what we always say is, when couples get unstuck, then they can get back into their own developmental process. They don't need a therapist all the way through their whole development. Neil Sattin: Right. So, would you be willing, or I could do this too, but because I don't want to put you on the spot completely, but to give sort of the two to three minute overview of, what are we talking about, the developmental stages that a couple goes through? Ellyn Bader: Pete, do you want to do it or do you want me to do it? Pete Pearson: Go ahead, Ellyn. Ellyn Bader: Okay. So, the quick version is, two people meet, they fall in love. In the ideal world, everything is beautiful, wonderful. They have that incredible falling in love period, which I sometimes call a period of temporary psychosis. But it's a period in which there's bonding and attachment and not everybody starts that way, but a lot of couples do. And then it's normal by about two years into the relationship, sometimes a little sooner, sometimes a little longer, but it's very, very normal to hit a period of disillusionment when the partner is taken off that pedestal and instead of being seen as wonderful, all of a sudden the flaws start to show up and that disillusionment period is normal. Ellyn Bader: And then what people have to contend with is, how do we work out who are you and who am I given that we not only have parts of ourselves in each other that we love, but parts of each other that we find sometimes disgusting or we don't really want to be around or we don't like and that's all normal. But what's hard for couples is to learn how to manage those differences effectively instead of ineffectively. When they handle it ineffectively, they start to blame, accuse, or withdraw and then they get into some negative patterns. Ellyn Bader: So the second stage of relationship is the stage of differentiation. It's a stage in which partners do learn how to come to terms with their differences. When that goes well, actually people are able to have a lot more independence than they had in the first two stages because there's a base of connection and a base of, hey, we know to solve things. We solve them well. And then they can be out in the world more. They can be doing more independent things, enjoying other things that they're bringing back to help nourish the relationship, and so there's often a period in which that can go on for many, many years in which each partner is developing their own self-esteem apart from how the relationship is fairing. Ellyn Bader: And then at some point often there's a period of reconnection or of returning to the relationship as a source of greater nurturance and often couples at this time tend to focus more on their sexual relationship or on different aspects of intimacy when they're reconnecting. And many couples who get through all of this end up wanting to create something together and so we even talk about a last stage being a synergistic stage. A stage in which one plus one is really greater than two and they support each other in ways or goals or projects that are meaningful to both of them. So that's a very quick version of sometimes what I teach in a whole morning. Neil Sattin: That was great. And I'm thinking back to how you mentioned that you're working a lot with entrepreneurial couples these days and I'm curious to know how you draw distinction between couples who are working together from a synergistic place that one plus one is more than two, versus couples who are coming at that from a more enmeshed place where they're not ... It's about just not being able to be without each other. Pete Pearson: I guess, that gave me, what a great question. If couples want to start working together and they haven't been able to work out yet how to manage their differences or their disillusionments, boy, are they in for a wild ride. If you think about all the different areas of interdependence that couples have when they're not even working together, where they have areas of interdependency, our family and friends and finances and fitness and food and fidelity and faith and man, there are a lot of F words in an interdependent relationship. Pete Pearson: And each one of those areas require a set of negotiation problem solving skills and working together. And then you add all those areas of interdependency with all the areas of interdependency at work, when they're working together. What could possibly go wrong? So, the problems just are geometric when you work with your partner, your spouse, and yet, more and more couples are working together. There's a lot of entrepreneurs out there on the internet or doing franchise operations and their spouse is involved and that just really doubles the opportunity to collide. It also doubles the opportunity to synergize your strengths and abilities. Pete Pearson: So, it really, the push and pull is enormous to deal with the differences and it's ... Sometimes I will say, I will ask couples, "Would you want to be married to a personality clone of yourself?" Most couples say no. And I'll say, "Well, why is that?" And the category it's generally falling to, "Well, if I'm married to a clone of myself ... If I married a clone, it would be like World War 3." Or, "If I married a clone of myself, it'd be really interesting, but nothing would get accomplished." And as one woman said, "I would have all my problems times two." Pete Pearson: And so the good news is, they're smart enough to know that differences can enhance a relationship, but the same differences can also corrode a relationship, but we want to marry somebody who is different. And that's the good news and the bad news. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I'm just thinking too about how time, being such a limiting resource in many respects with everything that people are trying to accomplish in today's world and so I could see that providing incentive for people to want to work together as a way to actually maybe be able to spend more time together. Pete Pearson: Right. Neil Sattin: And yet, from what you're saying, I also gather, like, wow, it is so important in that case to be able to identify, oh, here we are not handling conflict very productively and here are all the signs of that. Whether it's increased resentment or increased ... Just increased conflict that gets explosive versus actually resolving. And that comes from what you were talking about, right Ellyn? That sense of, have you differentiated effectively enough so that you can stand in who you are, but actually meet the other person as a whole person unto themselves and have a collaborative way of being on the same team as you navigate those places where you're not in alignment. Ellyn Bader: Yeah. One of the things, Neil, that I find really interesting, as I said, I've started doing some more work with entrepreneurs and their spouses and particularly, I love working with the couples who are fairly new to going into business together because one of the things that they know they have a ton at stake because if they don't make it, their business is going to have problems or have to be split up as well as their marriages or their committed partnerships. And so they actually have, in some cases, a much higher motivation to get it right at the beginning, and also sometimes it's easier for people to get the concept that in business, our roles and responsibilities need to be really clearly defined. Ellyn Bader: And that's also true on the home front with a lot of couples, but couples don't tend to think about it that way, they tend to think about it as, well, if our relationship is good, everything will just go smoothly and we can move back and forth smoothly. Neil Sattin: Right. It all just works itself out. Ellyn Bader: Exactly. And so they know- Pete Pearson: That's the hope. Ellyn Bader: Right. That's the hope and the belief that it should be easy. But yet, when you have clearly defined roles, it mitigates a lot of conflict. Ellyn Bader: Here comes our gardener making some noise I'm sorry to say. Neil Sattin: I can hear it, but it's so faint in the background and you're coming through so loud and clear that as long as you're able to concentrate, then I think we're good. Ellyn Bader: Okay. Neil Sattin: Yeah. So, I love that. So, one potential option if you're having trouble motivating to actually change is to start a business together. Ellyn Bader: Well, except if your relationship is a mess, it's not a great time to start a business together. Pete Pearson: You'll have all your problems times two. Neil Sattin: Just kidding. But it does bring us back to that question of how you get people to buy-in. To like ... Okay, this is actually going to require something of me to create change in our relationship. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, and most people who have worked in the workplace understand that there are different roles and responsibilities that come with a job and they've been in jobs where they've had people on a team who are doing different aspects of the work. And so they've had that experience and it makes logical sense. But then when they go home and they think, there's just two of us, they don't think about saying, okay, who's responsible for organizing childcare? Who's responsible for our finances or is somebody paying the bills and somebody else doing the investments? Who's responsible for cooking dinner on Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday or does somebody always cook and somebody always clean up? And they get into patterns, but often it's not really clearly delineated. Neil Sattin: Right. So, is there a process that, if I'm listening to this and thinking, "Oh, you know, some of those things we haven't actually figured out," or "I wonder if we've differentiated effectively?" How could I diagnose myself or our relationship to know if that's happened or not? Pete Pearson: Well, the easy way to know that it's happened, Neil, is, what does my partner do that annoys me? And when you start from a place of, what does my partner do that annoys me in what area of stuff around the house, I would bet that it's because you haven't clearly delineated and agreed upon the roles and responsibilities of that area. Couples kind of normally fall into those patterns in kind of like happenstance, but there's a lot of slippage and a lot of boundary confusion or unclarity about who is really responsible for what and who gets the deciding vote in that area. And that's when our annoyances almost always come from expectations, "My partner's not meeting my expectations." So, the annoyances have to do with expectations of partners that haven't been clarified very well or agreed upon. Neil Sattin: Yeah. Or assumptions that you're making. Pete Pearson: Assumptions, yes. Neil Sattin: So, I'm curious for couples who say, think, "Well, generally it works out okay, but when we try to have that conversation, it doesn't go so well, like either ... That could be an explosive argument, or it could be I just always have to give in, because we can't have that conversation. What are some ways that you offer couples to help them have that conversation in a way that's more generative, and you talk about ... I think you talk about fighting fairly or conflict ... I can't remember the exact phrase that you use, but agreements around how you have conflict. Ellyn Bader: Well, before we even go there, let's say that when couples are trying to negotiate, they make some mistakes. One of the big mistakes that people make is caving in too quickly and they don't realize that when they hit that place of tension, that's actually the place where it's important to stay with it a while longer and figure something out and not see that tension as something bad, but see that tension as where their growth edge actually is. Ellyn Bader: And so, it's a long story, and we won't go into all the details, but Pete and I talk about many years ago, when we ran workshops together, how we reached a point of conflict, and where we each wanted something very different and it took a full year to sort it out and a full year of actually having to work with the tension, until we came to something that worked for both of us and enabled us to keep working together, because otherwise we would've had too much conflict and not been able to continue working together, running workshops together. People think they should get through stuff faster sometimes than is actually possible. Ellyn Bader: The process of getting through it is a process where both you get to know yourself better, and you get to know your partner better, if you can stay curious about why something matters to your partner, stay curious about why is it so important to you, learning how to ask really good questions, learning how not to cave too fast. There's many different capacities that are involved in successfully differentiating and successfully managing conflict that get strengthened. The emotional muscle gets built as couples go through that together. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, so I could almost see, like for instance, if you sense that your partner is just caving in, because you've hit that point of tension, to have the willingness to say, “No, I don't want to just get my way here. Let's figure out a way to have this conversation, as long as is required.” Ellyn Bader: Right, right, and you know, people who tend to be very active and assertive often end up with partners who are a bit more passive than they, themselves, are and for a while it may work to let the more passive person just cave in, but then, over time, instead of having clear roles and responsibilities, what you actually have is the active person doing way, way, way, way more, and the other person doing less, and resentment building. You need to be able to stop that caving in process early. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, what's ... Maybe we could talk briefly about a structure that could be helpful for people, when they realize they're at this place, a point of tension that's where they tend to get stuck. What might- Pete Pearson: Hey, I have an ... Ellyn, I have an idea. Neil, if we could post somewhere, where your listeners could go to and get a four-page document called, “Super Negotiation for Couples.” Neil Sattin: Love it. Pete Pearson: It's a really step-by-step process for how to negotiate and how to avoid the two big problems of negotiation, which is either caving in too quickly or pushing yourself too hard to get what you want, at the expense of the other. I can give you a link where your listeners could go and get that document. Neil Sattin: Yeah, that would be great, if it's easy. We can always post it in the transcript of the show, as well. Pete Pearson: That would be great, but very quickly, and then we'll send you the link, and it could be posted in the transcript. It's couplesinstitute.com/blog, and then in the blog, it's Super Negotiation for Couples, couplesinstitute.com/blog, and the blog is “Super Negotiation for Couples.” It's four pages, which is really good, a step-by-step process to lead you through what can be negotiated, and, interestingly enough, what cannot be negotiated, and even more importantly, how to prepare ahead of time to make an effective negotiation. Neil Sattin: Great. I can already envision enlisting Chloe and doing it experimentally and recording ourselves for the podcast- Pete Pearson: Oh, cool! Yeah. Neil Sattin: So that you can hear us live going into negotiating or not, something really sensitive for us. Pete Pearson: Oh, that would be interesting. Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, totally. I appreciate your sharing that link, and we will definitely have a direct link to that in the transcript and show notes, as well. Pete Pearson: Terrific. Neil Sattin: I guess that saves us from having to go through the whole thing here. Pete Pearson: Right. Neil Sattin: One thing that I want to touch on is when people get into relationship and, Ellyn, you mentioned, very often, not always, but very often there's that initial falling in love or that feeling of merging, or we're the same, or we're meant for each other. This is perfect. Then the disillusionment happens, where you start realizing the person isn't perfect. Yet, towards the end of the developmental process, when you're actually in that place of synergy, I don't think you're going to feel like you're the same again, but you will feel an intense level of intimacy and closeness that, in some ways, is at least a variation on the theme of that kind of intimacy that you experience at the very start of your relationship. Neil Sattin: I want to bring this up, because I feel like, so often, the struggle for people is wanting to hang onto what they experienced at the very beginning out of fear of moving like that, in the differentiation process, they're going to lose each other. How do you keep people connected, while they're differentiating? Ellyn Bader: First of all, one of the ways that I explain this, and I think it's a visual that people really get, is you know the disco balls that have mirrors all around them? Neil Sattin: Yes. Ellyn Bader: I keep a disco ball in my office. What I say is a disco ball represents each person, and all the mirrors on the ball are different facets of yourself. When you two met and fell in love, the disco ball mirrors that were facing each other or were setting each other off, and you were falling in love, and all the brain chemicals got going, are those places where you really felt like you were the same, like you were meant for each other, like everything was just perfect. Ellyn Bader: Well, because everybody has so many different facets of themselves, it's inevitable that those balls are going to spin. There's going to be a period in which the ones that are facing each other are actually the ones where you don't get along so well, or you're not the same, and where you have growth that needs to take place, in order to keep the connection. Over time, the balls are going to continue to spin, and you will learn things that will deepen your connection and, actually, the kind of intimacy that most couples experience when they get to the other side of that is a kind of intimacy that feels more real and more grounded than that super-exciting, temporary psychosis that went on at the beginning. Neil Sattin: Yeah, I mean the disco ball isn't terribly effective when it stays in one place. It needs to spin for- Ellyn Bader: Exactly. Neil Sattin: Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Ellyn Bader: Now, and a relationship needs juice. It needs energy, and some of that energy comes from the differences, as well as from the similarities. Neil Sattin: I suggest that you, at home, you pick your favorite disco tune, and you can hum it to yourself when you're in a moment of uncertainty about the direction that you're headed. I'm already getting it might be the night fever, we know how to go it. Pete Pearson: Cool. Neil Sattin: There's that reassurance that you're headed towards that place, and yet it can feel really scary to give, to grant, freedom, or to take freedom, let's say, to take that independence. Is there a specific way that you encourage people to do that, to enter into that required process, but to maintain an awareness of the other person's heart and how they're affecting them, but not in a way that leads to codependence? Pete Pearson: That question, Neil, brings us full circle back to where we started. Instead of saying, “Here's how you do it,” or, “Here's the way to do it,” it's like, “What is your motivation for doing it? What are the advantages for put ... Why would you put forth the effort? Why would you take the emotional risk? Why would you take the sustained effort to bring that about?” Then we can talk about how to do it, but let's first talk about the "why" you would be willing to do it. It's the why that gives us the motivation to do the work. Ellyn Bader: Pete, I think of some of the stuff that you've been doing lately around couples as a team also is part of an answer to Neil's question. Pete Pearson: Totally, because we first have to identify where we get stuck, where the pain is. That's easy for couples to do. Pete Pearson: “Here's where I get triggered. When my partner does X, this is what happens, and I get triggered.” Pete Pearson: I say, “Great, let's look at what you feel/think when you get triggered.” Pete Pearson: They go, “Oh, that's easy to do.” Pete Pearson: Now I will say, “Let's shift, because we have to shift from where you are in that emotional brain, that lizard brain reflex, that self-protection, and let's talk about how you aspire to be instead. If you come from your higher self, your transformative self, you're better self, what would that look like? Instead of responding from a defensive, blaming, accusatory, withdrawing place, what would be a better way of responding?” Pete Pearson: Most of the time, people can say, “Well, I'd be better if I was calmer, if I was curious, if I was a little more compassionate, if I was a better listener.” Pete Pearson: Then here's, I say, the key question, which is, “Why would you be willing to make the effort to go to that future focus, that forward focus? Why would you be willing to do that?”  Then, that gets us to all the benefits for change. People only change for three reasons: to avoid a greater pain, for the benefits involved or the rewards involved, and to live more within our integrity about how we aspire to be. We talk about why they would be willing to make the effort. Pete Pearson: Then, I'll say, "When you get stuck, when you get triggered, I want you to clasp your hands together and squeeze. That will, first of all, distract you from being looping in that emotional, lizard brain response. Then, think about how you would aspire to be, and why you would change and be that way. When your partner sees you clasping your hands, that's a signal to your partner that you are struggling to change your response and come from your better self. Then your partner will say to you, 'Oh, thank you. I appreciate your willingness to try to avoid going into that old place and do something different. I really appreciate that. What can I do to help that? What can I say or what can I do right now that would be helpful?'"  I say, "When you guys do that, now you're working together as a team." Neil Sattin: Perfect, and that being the whole goal is recognizing that, even as you progress through these stages of togetherness leading into greater independence, leading back to greater interdependence, that you're on the same team with each other. Pete Pearson: Yes. Neil Sattin: You're not out to get each other. You've got each other's back, and you can help each other through that process. Pete Pearson: Exactly. Neil Sattin: Well, Pete Pearson and Ellyn Bader, it's been a treat to have you on the show again, just like the first time around. I wish I had read your book, In Quest of the Mythical Mate, years ago, but I'm so thrilled that I read it now. I would say it's required reading for any couples therapist out there. You're doing a lot of work, training couples therapists, as well as work helping lay people just do better in relationships, through your work at The Couples Institute. Neil Sattin: Thank you, again, for being with us here today. I'll make sure we have links to your website, so people can find your work. I just want to say how grateful I am for the work you're doing in the world, and for your willingness to come and share it with us here on Relationship Alive. We could talk more, and hopefully, we'll get that chance again sometimes soon. Pete Pearson: Thank you, Neil, so much, for what you're doing to bring the message to the people out there. Neil Sattin: My pleasure. Ellyn Bader: Yes, thank you, Neil. It's always a pleasure talking with you, and I also will mention that I'm going to be doing a free online workshop between August 13th and 25th, so if any of your listeners want to participate in that, I can send you a link for that, as well. Neil Sattin: That would be great, and I can actually send that out to my mailing list, as well, so that people can find out about it that way. Ellyn Bader: That would be fantastic. Pete Pearson: Thank you, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Yeah, that would be great. Neil Sattin: Absolutely. Well, we'll be in touch about that, and always great to talk to you guys. Take care. Ellyn Bader: You, too. Pete Pearson: Bye-bye, Neil. Ellyn Bader: Bye.  

What's the quickest and easiest way to turn your sales people and subject matter experts into content creators? On this week's episode of The Inbound Success Podcast, marketing agency coach Max Traylor talks about "The Rockstar Creative Method" - the process he's used to make reluctant sales people and subject matter experts into rockstar content creators by having them interview clients and then turning that into a video show. Listen to the podcast to learn more about Max's process and how he's used this approach to grow his own business. Transcript Kathleen Booth (host): Welcome back to The Inbound Success podcast. My name's Kathleen Booth and I'm your host. Before we get started today, just one quick announcement. I'm excited to let everyone know that the podcast now has an Alexa skill. So if for some crazy reason you want to hear my voice talking at you for one hour a week out of your Alexa, now you can. All you have to do is go into your Alexa app to the skills and search "Inbound Success" and you should find it. With that, I want to introduce my guest today who is Max Traylor. Max is an inbound agency coach, a marketing strategist and a product strategist. Welcome to the podcast Max. Max Traylor (guest): Hello Kathleen. Max and Kathleen recording this episode Kathleen: It's great to have you here. Max: It's great to be here and I'm already learning things based on your Alexa ... Kathleen: My Alexa skill. I'm not convinced there's anyone that actually wants to hear me talking for an hour every week in their Alexa, but should there be, we have provided that option. I'm interested to have you here because every week, this podcast is me talking to somebody who's a practicing marketer, who's doing something really well, and we try and pick apart what they're doing well. Many of those guests have been inbound agency owners and a lot of people think, "Oh, if you run an agency, you must really be an expert" and many of those people really are. What I think is interesting about this particular interview is, I'm interviewing somebody who helps the agency owner. So this is like "the expert behind the expert." So for agency owners that are struggling to take their business to the next level, you're a great resource, but you also yourself are directly somebody who advises on marketing strategy and the product positioning of services, which is an area that I think is just ripe for discussion. So that's enough of me tooting your horn. Tell our audience a little bit about yourself and what you do. About Max Traylor Max: Well, your introduction sounded really good. I'll probably borrow from that.  Kathleen: You can pay me later. Max: Yes, thank you. I ran an agency for about five years...very traditional, what everybody says to do. And during that time I really, I really fell in love with the strategy part, which was when clients paid me for my knowledge and not necessarily doing the work, but advising them on what was most important, creating plans that could be executed by other project managers. So I fell in love with strategy and somewhere along the line, I accidentally productized what was in my head. We took our process for delivering a content strategy ... we took our process for delivering content marketing services and we turned that into a strategy that we called the Content Marketer's Blueprint. After that, I was exposed to this world of licensing intellectual property, of creating online classes, these residual business models. And I always grew up with that with my dad working from home and he'd always say, "Digital, scalable, residual Max", and I had no idea what he was talking about until that day that I accidentally created a product. So I like working with experts in their field that are really knowledgeable on a particular topic and have created processes of their own. For those people, I help them productize what's in their head. For agency owners, I help them do more strategy work because for the people with the most knowledge and the most experience, I think that concentrating on delivering strategy and playing the role of the strategist is really the way they can provide the most value. And then over the years, I've experimented with a lot of alternative marketing methods for myself and I like to package those up and work with marketing and sales software companies when I'm doing my marketing strategy work. So definitely a problem with shiny object syndrome, but I've limited it to three. So that's nice. Kathleen: I want to go back to what you said about "digital, scalable, residual" because as soon as he said that in my head, what popped up was my father. My father who was in real estate, unlike your father, and he always said it was "location, location, location." I feel like digital, scalable, residual is the location, location, location of marketing. So I love that. Max: Yeah. Well, I always wondered why he was at home everyday and taking me to Disney World and now I'm able to provide value to clients by sitting next to my pool. So I feel like I've gotten at least a piece of it, but it's sort of a mentality that I've always had looking at the opportunity for marketing entrepreneurs and more broadly the opportunity for sales consultants and marketing consultants alike. The current state of content marketing Kathleen: You've been in this inbound marketing space for a while and you've been in it as an agency owner, as a strategist, as a consultant. You've worn different hats and I'm sure if you're anything like me, over the course of those years, you've seen inbound marketing evolve quite a bit. When I first got into this business it was like all you had to do was throw up a 500 word blog once a week, and it was that old field of dreams "if you build it, they will come?" model and you didn't have to work that hard because not everybody was doing it. Now the landscape has changed so dramatically and I'm curious -- as somebody who advises both companies on their actual marketing strategy, but also agencies on how to grow, I would love to hear your take on how that landscape is changing and what you see as the key drivers going forward. Max: Well, in the beginning it was a land grab. Google changed a couple of their rules to where people actually had to provide value and the way most people interpreted that was, "I create a bunch of blog articles and I really increase my traffic, and then I put some little buttons on my website that gets people to fill out forms and I can call those people and generate some new business." In the early days, that's what it was because it was the early adopters that really had all the opportunity in the world, and they didn't have to work too hard. It was very easy to provide more value than the black hat SEO folks of the past that were using trickery to increase their traffic. It was very similar to in the early U.S. when we were all moving west and the government would literally give you land grants. All you had to do was go out there and that's kinda what the early days of inbound were like. All you had to do was create some content people would show up at your front door. But now we live in a very saturated market and every industry is becoming saturated. I talk to a lot of people in the manufacturing space that say, "Well, not a lot of people in our industry are creating content and all the other people are focused on inbound in our industry." That's just not true. I mean google inbound marketing for manufacturers, google anything that a potential customer of a large industrial manufacturer would be googling. There's pages and pages and pages of content. So we're forced to get more creative, we're forced to provide more value. In my opinion, what we're shifting from is organizations trying to make themselves attractive via content and we're shifting to an era of personal brands where it's real people that are creating the content. It's not some marketer in a dark room somewhere trying to repeat what you've said. It's actually the subject matter expert that's creating content and generating conversations with their target audience. Kathleen: Yeah, I would agree with that. It's funny, I always ... People talk about setting a high bar or a low bar, and when I'm thinking of the evolution of inbound marketing, I always in my head think of it like a game of limbo. So it's almost like the opposite, where we started out with a really high bar and everybody could just slightly bend backwards and limbo right through it with their short little blogs. And the bar has gotten progressively lower over the years and now you have to bend a lot farther backwards. It's a lot harder to do it and there's far fewer people/companies or brands that are putting in the work needed to make it through that bar and get to the other side and really see success. I don't know why in my head I kind of reversed the bar analogy, but yeah, it's harder work. Max: No, that's an appropriate analogy. Not to be confused with, like you said, setting the bar high or setting the bar low. Kathleen: We're setting a really low bar. Max: Exactly. Obviously that's a broad suggestion to say, "Be more creative, create better content." "Great, okay. How do I do that?" The simple answer is focus more. The more focused you are at providing value to a specific industry, or even a sub industry in a lot of cases, because of how saturated these markets have gotten, but also a horizontal practice area. And I see that the companies that are creating content for a specific type of target buyer with a very specific problem, are the ones having the most success. And the more you can dedicate yourself to that focus, it's almost like taking that bar and raising it up a little bit more, so it's just a little bit easier to get under it. Kathleen: Now what do you say to people who hear that and say, "But if I get super specific, I'll be alienating all those other people out there." Max: So you just described 99% of people out there. Kathleen: Yeah. Max: And I'm kind of thankful for it because that's what keeps the 1% having fun. The 1% ... You just have to do it. I mean, if you've ever invested for a year in content trying to generate opportunities and you haven't focused on a particular industry area, let me know how that worked for you. Kathleen: Yeah. I work with Marcus Sheridan, a man who lots of folks listening probably know, and he is famous for saying "the riches are in the niches." Max: Yeah. Kathleen: And it's true. Max: He's a smart guy. Kathleen: Yeah. Max: Why 99% of people don't listen to you, don't listen to him, don't listen to me? It's fear. It's fear that they are limiting their opportunity, when in fact the exact opposite is happening. You cannot be everything to everyone, and I try to interview experts all the time in sales and marketing and startup consulting. No one has ever, ever, ever said, that I respect as a consultant, "Oh, you should go more broad." Kathleen: Right. Max: Never. Not once.  Kathleen: I would be willing to bet that inbound agency owners are some of the biggest violators of this because the agency space has gotten very crowded and there's lots of general, "full service inbound agencies" out there. So I'm sure that they are not necessarily practicing what they preach all the time either. Max: So that's the weirdest thing about agency owners. Most people can sit there and bask in the fear and say, "No, I'm not going to go that specific because I'm afraid that I'm giving up all these opportunities." But agency owners are the only ones that day in, day out tell their clients that they need to focus without focusing ourselves. Kathleen: Yeah. I would agree with that. So one thing is getting specific in your content. How important it is it also to have a strong point of view? Max: I mean, when have you ever enjoyed a conversation when somebody didn't have a strong point of view? Like I said, this is becoming more about individual conversations. It's becoming more about a personal brand and somebody's actually enjoying listening to somebody. Regardless of if your opinion is met with a rejection or if it pisses people off or if people are really refreshed by your point of view, you have to have an opinion. And if you don't have an opinion, it's just boring. Kathleen: I think I know the answer to this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you also find that 99% of people come back to you with the same response on that as they do on getting specific? That they're afraid that if they take a strong stance, they're going to alienate a lot of people. Max: A hundred percent, which again is ... It's sort of a natural market defense for the people that are willing to take those risks and be specific and have a specific opinion. If everybody was doing it well, then it'd be much harder to stand out. Luckily, there still exists a land grab today. We haven't gotten all the way to the Pacific Ocean. We've reached like, California, and California is still reserved for those that will focus and have a clear opinion as they provide value for that specific marketplace. Kathleen: Excellent. All right. I'm taking over San Francisco. Max: Yeah, right. I'll meet you on the beach. The Rockstar Creative Method Kathleen: So when you work with folks these days, obviously you're evangelizing the need to continue to produce content, but to do it in a way that is very focused, that it has some sort of point of view. If I were your client and I said, "Okay, I'm ready to go." How would you generally advise me to get started? What's the best way to produce that content? Max: Well, the content is about answering questions and there's a lot of very smart people that have written books about that. That's what inbound marketing content is. It's taking the most burning questions, the most valuable questions when answered, and projecting that out into the marketplace to attract people with those problems. I've found that over the years the best content -- if you think about content in a broad sense, not just what we sit down and write on our blog -- the best content being created is between the actual buyer and a subject matter expert. And we spend thousands of dollars and years trying to recreate that magic. And I've come to the point where I've stopped trying to recreate that magic and instead encourage more of those conversations. My advice to somebody getting started with inbound marketing, is do not pay someone to blog for you. Reach out and have a conversation with your target buyer. Call it research, call it an interview, call it you're writing a blog and you want their opinion. But if you're creating content and you aren't speaking with your target buyer, you're doing it wrong. That is what inbound is all about, is answering people's questions. Why not start a new relationship, get someone's real question and provide value right then and there? Capture it on video. Capture it on Zoom. You get an audio automatically, just like this podcast that we're doing on Zoom today, and there's transcription services at ten cents a minute that gets you 80% accuracy. There is a blog right there. You do an hour long interview. I never do hour long interviews, but if you do a 20 minute interview at ten cents a minute, that's $2.00. Kathleen: Yeah. Max: It's going to take you $2.00 and a little bit of elbow grease and putting your fear aside to reach out, interview someone in your target market and get a video resource, audio resource and text. Post that on your blog. And the only- Kathleen: And that's funny that you say that because that's basically the process I follow for this podcast. Like Max said, we're on Zoom right now. I don't actually use the video. It's something that maybe we'll evolve into at some point, but I sometimes use stills from it. But I send it off, it gets transcribed by Rev.com and it's amazing the accuracy and yeah, that's how the show notes come about. It's super easy, fast and inexpensive. Totally worth it. Max: Doing it video is probably the most difficult thing that you can do. I happen to love doing video, and I really like the relationships that get created as part of these interviews, so I choose to do it on video, but the concept is including your ideal customers in the content creation process. You could get on the phone and interview them and write down what they're saying. I don't know why you would do that because there's ... You just shouldn't be doing that, but regardless of how you do it, creating a new relationship in the beginning of the content creation process, it's taking inbound -- the typical process for creating content, where you put in all the work, hopefully to get paid off at the end -- and it's turning it on its head and saying, "Wait a minute, I'm trying to generate relationships with my ideal customers. Why don't I do that first and let the content creation come as a natural byproduct?" Kathleen: Yeah. I love that. And just to be clear, I don't have anything against video. In fact, we're big fans of video at IMPACT, but I selfishly don't use video for my podcasts because then, every time I recorded one, I would have to put a lot more effort into looking good, and I personally feel like I have a face for audio. We have a lot of really great webinar guests at IMPACT, and we did a webinar recently with Mari Smith, who, if folks haven't heard of her, she's this amazing Facebook marketing expert, and she did the webinar in a way that you could see her via a live feed through her DSLR camera, and everybody on my team was just like, "Wow, she has set a new bar," in this case, a high bar, "for how to look phenomenally camera ready." And after that I was like, "I can't be on video ever again until I get a stylist and a wardrobe consultant," so... But I think there's something to that. When it comes to creating content, I've always said go with what you're most comfortable with, because if you try to put yourself in a position you're not comfortable, you're not going to do it and you're not going to stick with it. So for me, in this case, I really love the audio format. I'm comfortable with it. It's easy for me. I don't have to blow dry my hair and put on makeup for an hour before every podcast interview. I can just show up and have a great conversation, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, the most important thing is that you get great content out there, and if that means video, great. If that means audio, great. Whatever you're going to really love doing, I think is the best format. Max: Kathleen, that is so important. I hadn't really thought of that before you were mentioning it, but the most important thing with content is that you're consistent with it. And people will say, "Well, it's not about writing 10,000 blogs a week. It's about getting great content." Yes, but in some respects you do have to be consistent. That's the nature of the personal brand. That's how you're going to continue to grow your audience, continue to provide value. You do need to be consistent, and the one thing that prevents people from being consistent is they hate doing it. So here's a tip. Write down all the things you hate about creating content, and simply don't do those things anymore. If I had created a list back when I was writing blogs, it would be speaking with an editor, trying to write what was in my head. So what did I do? I removed that. I no longer write articles. I do video interviews, and I don't need to try and write down what's in my head because of these great transcription services. So the number one thing, to your point, is it's got to be fun. Kathleen: Absolutely. Max: Boy, what a cool rule to follow. Kathleen: You said earlier, "Don't ever hire anybody to write blogs for you," and I would just caveat that and say that I have seen that work, but really it only works well where the person or the company that's writing the blog for you is phone interviewing you. So if you were my client, and you just said you don't love to write, and if I was like, "Max, we need to get written blogs on your site," the only way that can work in an outsourced scenario is if you and I do a 30 minute phone call and I record it, just like you're talking about doing, and I give that recording to a writer, because then what they're really doing is just massaging your own words and turning them into a written format. If you're not doing that, it's really, really difficult to get an authentic sounding, detailed, meaty piece of content that works really well. Max: Yeah. And maybe that's the opinionated me having an opinion on it that isn't always going to be right. I think there's definitely a place for professional writers that have developed knowledge and expertise in certain areas. That's my caveat to it. If you're going to hire somebody to do your blogging and actually be the one contributing the expertise, they have to be experts. If you, yourself, are the subject matter expert, and it's your expertise, then the more you can make it easy for your writer to not have to reinvent, to not have to make up, to not have to sound like an expert, to literally take the words out of your mouth and provide the flow, provide the organization. But the words, the insights need to come from the subject matter expert, and we have the technology to very easily capture those words exactly. Kathleen: One hundred percent. So, all right, let's go back for a second. You started talking about how everybody should start by talking with their actual customers, or somebody who's a representative of their customer. Walk me through that. Give me examples of where you've done it or where somebody that you've advised has done it, and what does that look like when that content is produced and published? Max: Yeah, so I actually did this by accident. When I went out on my own as a consultant, I knew that I wanted to have fun, and I knew that having beers with people that were truly experts in their space was something that I did during marketing events in Boston once a year, and it was a great time. So I said why not do that like all the time?  I created this show, this video show, called Beers With Max, and all I knew is I wanted to interview people that were experts in their industry and that had a business model that was more than delivering a service one-to-one, they had some type of productized intellectual property, because I wanted to motivate and give confidence to people that were stuck in a traditional one-to-one services model. That's how it started, and what I realized is that, by reaching out to people with that genuine message and saying, "Look, I want to have a beer with you online, and we'll ask some questions, and here's the people that I'm trying to motivate. What do you think?" I just kept getting more yeses, and so I started raising the bar in the traditional sense of the analogy, and I started to reach out to established authors and speakers and CEOs. And it turns out, people are very willing to have an open conversation sharing their challenges, sharing what they've done to be successful in their own right. Good people are sort of naturally motivated to give back, and that's what I'm trying to do with my show, is get people to talk about what they've done to try and inspire others. And what happened by accident is a lot of those relationships turned into new business, because I wasn't trying to sell people things. I was actually talking to my grandfather last night, having dinner, 93 years old, and he goes, "You know, I was never ..." He made a lot of money, put it that way. He said, "You know, I was never able to sell things, but people bought from me," because he never tried to sell them anything. He just created a relationship, and I think that's what naturally happens when you're including people in your process of educating the marketplace. So, that's how I get all of my clients today for product development. That's what I use Beers With Max for. And then I started to say, "You know what? Maybe I'm not the only one." I had a client that was a marketing agency focused specifically in providing services to the publishing space. So we created a show happy hour, and we reached out to distributors who we knew had relationships with hundreds of publishers, and we said, "Great, we're going to have a cocktail and we're going to interview you about the biggest challenge in publishing companies." And magically, every time we interview a distributor, that distributor sends out a message saying, "Hey, check out this interview that I did," to the hundreds of publishers that they work with. Bam, new business created. I've got a technology client who is a differentiator, and their opinion is that people that are investing in sales enablement and sales coaching are being failed by technology. They don't feel that the current sales technology landscape is supporting sales enablement and sales coaching. So that's what his show Technical Difficulties is about, and he reaches out to CEOs of his target audience, interviews them, and the magical part is, anyone that says yes to that interview is, by default, his ideal ideal customer. They have to be investing in those things or else they wouldn't agree to an interview about investing in those things. Social Mixers is a show by an agency I work with that specializes in social media. Again, I always try to have an alcohol theme because I think it says "no prep required." It's going to be fun. Kathleen: You know what it reminds me of? Have you ever seen Jerry Seinfeld's show Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee? Max: Someone made that reference when they heard about Beers With Max. I haven't seen it myself, but yes, I've- Kathleen: It's awesome. He has these other comedians, and they literally ... Every episode is him driving a different car. I don't know where he gets all these cars, but he matches the car to the person that he's with. And so one week it'll be ... It was like, I think he did one with Garry Shandling. He's done one with Sarah Silverman. They just literally film him in the car, getting coffee, and talking about, as Jerry Seinfeld does, random things. So it sort of reminds me of that, but I love it. I love the concept. Max: Well, I wonder how much a collaborative ... I'm sure Jerry Seinfeld makes his money through relationships and through different gigs that he's interested in, so I'm sure he's got a very similar payoff of interviewing different comedians. Kathleen: Yeah. And every comedian he interviews is pretty high profile, and as you say, they share it, and that just amplifies the audience that much more for him. So that's neat. Now, they've got all these different shows. Are these all video shows? Max: They're really whatever. In the beginning I was like, "Wow, you need to do video because video automatically makes everything more productive." Google likes video more in email -- higher click rates and such. But what it comes down to is what people enjoy and what they're comfortable with. I can force a client to do a video interview and it's awkward and it's weird, and that's just not sustainable. So sometimes it takes the form of research, and it's not a video conversation. Sometimes people are writing books and they want to gather opinions. It's whatever they're comfortable with, and it's whatever they want to naturally produce. I want to produce a show because I'm charismatic and I just love getting on video. Other people like writing books, they're serial authors. Great. You've got another book coming out, go interview people that you want to feature their insights in your book. So whatever makes you tick, include your customers in the ticking. Kathleen: And I imagine that there's so much you learn in the process. As marketers, we always come back to one of the cornerstones of any good marketing strategy is your audience persona -- understanding that target audience. I imagine even if you never got any new leads from doing this, you would still reap so many benefits from learning more and more about your target audience and that would make you better in other ways. Max: Yeah. You know, my grandfather said one other thing last night that really resonated with me. He said, "Nobody's going to buy from you unless you know what you're talking about." If I was ever asked, "Max, what gives you the right to charge me money, to charge money for what you think we should do?" I would say, "Hey, you're not getting it from me." I spend every day thinking about new leaders in the market to interview, and that's what I do. That's the only way I can have some relevance in this fast changing world. So unless you've got somebody having the amount of conversations with different experts, unless you've got somebody that's that dedicated to learning, maybe we should listen to me. Kathleen: What makes any consultant qualified, right? When you first start consulting, you've got to start somewhere, and it's about, I think, innately being able to connect dots. I used to be a management consultant, so most management consultants I know don't come from a deep level of technical expertise in the industry to which they're providing their consulting. They are people who know how to connect dots and who know how to research and learn quickly and package that information in a way that's useful for their client. Max: Yeah. Well- Kathleen: Not saying that you're not an expert, just saying that I think that's an interesting element of pushback that you got. Max: Well, you know, that's an interesting thing, the concept of an expert. I look at a strategist as a dot connector. A strategist will help a client identify what the most important opportunities are and come up with a plan to pursue those opportunities, but then you've got a very different type of expert, and that is an expert that has focused their lives and their learning on a particular practice area or a particular industry, and those experts are the tools that a strategist has available to them. So like in my strategy work, for example, I pitch it in three ways, but one of the ways is I am going to help you build your A-team, because if somebody is a Linkedin expert, but is also an SEO expert, but also knows how to do Facebook advertising, guess what? They know how to do a bunch of things relatively well. It's like a bed of nails. If you'd lay down on a bed of nails, you're not going to get pricked. It's dull. It's nullified. Kathleen: Jack of all trades, master of none. Max: That's so much more prominent today, as you've got thousands of technologies, and the different practices in marketing are just ... The complexity is skyrocketing, so what we need is a group of people that have focused in particular areas, and as a strategist we can identify when it's the most appropriate time to bring in those experts. And again, creating focus is the best thing you can do in this increasingly complex marketing landscape. Kathleen: Yeah. So you've had your show Beers With Max for how long now? Max: A little over two years. Kathleen: Okay. And you've already mentioned that that has resulted in new business opportunities for you. Max: All of the business opportunities. Kathleen: And how have those come about? Like if somebody is listening to this and thinking, "Okay, I'm going to test this approach," is it that old "Field of Dreams" thing, like "If you build it they will come," or are there certain things that you advise people do in order to maximize the likelihood that listeners will turn into leads? Max: I'll use the Field of Dreams analogy. It's kind of like going out into the cornfield, finding somebody, and dragging them by the hand back to your house and going, "Look, here he is." I don't have to build the shit. He's right here. And excuse me, I don't know if you're- Kathleen: No, you can say that on here. Max: I won't say it too many times, but I got excited. Yeah, it's, what is the downside of having a conversation with your ideal customers? I think the thing that holds people back from trying it, is the fear of reaching out. It's the same reason they do in marketing and wait for leads to show up. We have to combine reaching out with the noble idea of.inbound marketing -- educating the marketplace and actually providing value. So it's a combination of reaching out and actually having a conversation with the people you want to work with, but as my 93 year old grandfather would say, "Don't try and sell to them." This is about learning. This is about educating the marketplace. And people that are willing to collaborate with you on that and share that vision oftentimes are your best customers and they're a joy to work with. So it comes about, again, this was an accident, and it was probably the best accident that ever happened to me, but I'd reach out and I'd start off with a 15 minute conversation before the show about what they were up to, what challenges they'd seen in the marketplace, what they've done that's unique, and then they would ask me that and now we're introduced. Now we know who each other are, and then when do an interview, and we have a beer, and it's fun and people show up. Maybe some relationships are created. But we're having an interesting conversation, and what happened was nine times out of ten people would say, "Hey, I'm interested to learn more about what you're doing. That was a fun conversation. I'd have fun having another conversation." And that never happens when you're trying to sell something to them or to somebody. So create as many accidental conversations, but just have faith that creating value and speaking with people that you might eventually want to work with is gonna build some lasting relationships. I'll never forget the conversation I had with my grandfather. Literally last night, he was like, "I built really incredible relationships with people I happen to do business with." And that's how he was able to be so successful whilst being a terrible salesperson. Kathleen: One of my favorite things about this interview is that I have gotten so many little knowledge bombs secondhand from your dad and your grandfather. Max: Well they certainly don't come from me, so - Kathleen: It's great, I love it! There was a famous twitter account a few years back called Shit My Dad Says. So there you go, I'm saying the word, too. And I feel like you have a "Shit My Grandpa Says" opportunity, because there's so many great little tidbits of advice there. Max: Well, if I had to learn from people, it would be people in their 90's. They tend to have a lot of experiences. Kathleen: Yeah. That's great. So you have a great name for this approach to creating content. Can you share that with everybody? Max: Well it's really if you take the approach of doing a video interview and then you get the audio as a natural byproduct and you get the text as a natural byproduct, I look at that as the pinnacle of what you can do in creating content and it's worked so well for me. I call it the "Rockstar Creative Method," because you kind of have to have that rockstar mentality to do a video show. You don't have to be a rockstar, but that's sort of the persona you take on is that you're going to host a show and it's about the person you're interviewing and there are other ways to do it but rarely do you get all three consumption formats. You get video, you get audio and you get text. So if you want to be a rockstar, there you go! Kathleen: I like the Rockstar Creative method. You heard it here first. Kathleen's Two Questions So changing gears for a minute here, I always ask my guests the same two questions and as somebody who's been in this industry for a long time, I'm very curious to hear what your responses are going to be. The first question is, company or individual, who do you think is doing inbound marketing really well right now? Max: Well, you know, I knew you were going to ask that and I was hesitant at first, but you guys are probably -- and when I say you guys I mean IMPACT Branding -- probably one of my best examples of doing this. Because Kathleen, you don't just have your show. If you look at all the shows and podcasts that IMPACT is doing, you're taking all of the most valuable personal brands within your organization and you're applying this method. From everything we've talked about about personal brands and creating content and including folks in the content creation process, I mean you guys are doing it perfectly. Once you understand what you're looking for, you could do content marketing really well without this. It's that traditional way of creating content and hoping for people to show up. If you got in early enough, if you're one of the early movers west, congratulations! Because you probably have a lot of traffic and you generate a lot of opportunities, but for individual entrepreneurs that are just getting into this or companies that were a little late to the game, they need a golden ticket. They need something different. You look at new companies that just started out that are so successful like DataBox, pretty much overnight they've created an incredible blog and the whole strategy was to use their partners to generate content. And guess what? That's exactly what HubSpot did. They took their content team and expanded their efforts by using their partners and their ideal customers collaboratively to generate content. And now that you're looking at it through this lens, you look at all the most popular blogs, and the blogs and the content isn't being created by one person or faceless marketers. It's being created by real subject matter experts in collaboration with the people that would potentially buy their products or services. Kathleen: Well thank you for the very kind words about IMPACT's content. I mean, I will say that we're very fortunate, because we're an agency full of marketers, that we have so many people on our team who are very comfortable creating content, and so with almost 60- employees, we have a very deep well from which to draw that content out. Pretty much everyone in the company contributes once a month to our blog, but we also do -- as you noticed -- we have a lot of people that are even more prolific and have decided to start podcasts. It's kind of funny, because we didn't set out to have whatever it is, five or six podcasts that we have now. It's just that we had a lot of people who said, "You know what? I'm just gonna do this." And the company said, "Great, go ahead and do it!" And we wound up with almost our own channel of podcasts, if you will. Max: It's a collection of personal brands which I love to see because I think people are buying from people, and people are attracted to people. Is it the IMPACT brand that's so attractive or is the cumulative of the six personal brands that are doing shows all the time and the other 60 personal brands that are experts in their own right creating content as well? I'd tend to say the latter. Kathleen: Yeah and what you said about DataBox is very true. I had Pete Caputa who is the CEO on as one of my earlier guests and I think the title of that episode was How to 6X Your Organic Traffic In Six Months, and exactly how he did it is what you said. He used all of his network, his audience, his ideal customers as contributors and it made it much easier for him to create content. It made it easier for him to go faster with a small staff, and now his staff is getting much bigger because they've been successful and it's been like this kind of cumulative effect. So it absolutely does work. Max: Well it was actually Pete that made me realize what I was doing, what I was accidentally doing. It was a webinar that he was on, and he said, "If you're not creating content with your target audience you're doling it wrong." Kathleen: Yeah. Max: A light bulb went off and I was lik, "Oh, yeah. That's what I'm doing. That's why this is so great." Kathleen: Well, and the funny thing about Pete -- I think he said this when I interviewed him -- he was like, "I talk about this all the time, about how people should be doing this and how it's worked for us." And he's like, "You would be amazed at how almost nobody actually does it. They hear me say it. They know it works, but they just don't go do it." So he's like, "I want to see who's going to be the first one to listen to this episode and do it themselves." That's why. I think you have the opportunity for that last number of people to get to California as you were saying earlier. They know what it takes to get to California. Somebody has told them where the path is and how to get there. They're just not doing it. Max: All you gotta do is follow directions. The directions are right there. Kathleen: Yeah. Max: Yeah, no, he's very right. That's been my experience as well. Even when people pay for this advice and strategies to lay out exactly how they should be doing it, the resistance is a lot more than you'd expect. Kathleen: Absolutely. Well, you talked earlier about how you advise companies and what they're buying is not only your expertise, it's the cumulative expertise of you plus all the people that you're regularly talking to. And so that leads me to my last question for you which is, with the world of digital marketing changing so quickly, how do you stay up to date? Max: Talk with experts all the time. My favorite book right now is by David C. Baker, it's always on my desk. It's not today. The name of the book is Business of Expertise. He sort of addresses this question in that an expert won't know everything. An expert will know what he's not an expert in. That's what defines an expert. But he will have an opinion on everything. So it's this process of, how do you consistently build your opinions on different things out there in the marketplace? And for me, the best way that I've found to do that is to actually speak with the experts. They tend to be pretty willing to share their experiences and the biggest insights that they've gained over the years. So I would say get out and talk to the people. You can subscribe to their blogs and this and that, but nothing beats actually speaking with somebody that's dedicated their life to a particular practice area or industry segment and just listening to them. And having no preconceived agenda on what you're going to talk about. Just, "Hey, learn me something! What are you up to? What's going on in LinkedIn these days?" You'd be surprised at what you'd hear and those conversations make that bag of knowledge, that list of opinions that you have so valuable for somebody that doesn't know where to start. Kathleen: Absolutely, that's exactly why I do my podcast. For me, it's all about learning. I learn something new every single time I talk to somebody, without fail. Max: Yeah, like when I was paying for a college education, why didn't I have a different professor every day? Kathleen: That's a great point. Max: That would have been amazing. Want to get in touch with Max? Kathleen: Yeah. Certainly would make it less boring sometimes. Well, this has been so great, and if somebody wants to get in touch with you and ask a question about what you've discussed here or wants to talk to you about helping them with some coaching, what's the best way for them to reach you online? Max: Maxtraylor.com, it's very easy to find the little button that says "Book a time," and there's some videos on me if you haven't gotten enough of my opinions. It would be a fun conversation and given the nature of my learning, I'm really interested in talking to anybody that's got something on their mind because I typically learn from it and sometimes create some content out of it. Kathleen: All right. Well I'll put a link to your site in the show notes and so if you're interested in reaching out to Max, make sure to check those out. Have you reviewed the podcast yet? If you listened to this podcast interview and liked what you heard or learned something from it, I would really appreciate it if you would consider giving the podcast a review on Stitcher, iTunes, SoundCloud wherever you listen to your podcasts. And if you know somebody who is doing really kick ass inbound marketing work, tweet me at workmommywork because I would love to interview them. That's it for this week. Thanks, Max. Max: Thank you, Kathleen. This was a lot of fun. I appreciate the invite. Kathleen: For me as well.

Speech Generating Devices and speech assistive devices on the market today are expensive. Insurance policies are complicated and not everyone who needs one is always covered. Meet Mary Elizabeth McCulloch, she’s changing lives by ​giving a voice to the voiceless with Project Vive and Voz Box. A recent biomedical engineering graduate from a family of engineers and makers, Mary and her team are inventing Speech Generation Devices in new wearable forms by working closely with the people who most need them. Listen and find out how Mary and Project Vive are using low cost sensors and changing lives by leading the development of innovative medical devices and technology.     Show Highlights: It was really all about the access, not just in price, but in the sensors. Low cost sensors that could change someone’s life. These are sensors in our cell phones that can be used, and we’re really adapting that for the disability community. Wearable for independent communication - worked closely with the person using the device so that the design was modified to fit real life. Loop of instantaneous feedback - Gave the person using device a voice and a vote. People with disabilities are problem solvers. This is about innovation that is informed by people within the disability community. This is a great way to break down the stigma of disabilities. Cisco - 100k prize Projectvive.com - accepts donations via fiscal sponsor Links and Resources: Project Vive Meet Arlyn Project Vive on Youtube Learn more about Mary and Voz Box Altium Resources   Let us know if you know anyone who needs Project Vive technology. Or read more about Project Vive in this month’s OnTrack article.   Hey everyone this is Judy Warner with Altium's OnTrack podcast. Thank you for joining us today. If you've been listening to our podcast I would equate today's podcast with being the desert or the cherry on the sundae. It's a great story and a great woman that I look forward to sharing with you. Mary Elizabeth McCulloch who has a startup called ProjectVive. Before we get into our conversation with Mary Elizabeth please remember to connect with Altium on Facebook, Twitter and LinkedIn and I would also love to connect with you on LinkedIn or on Twitter, I'm @AltiumJudy and also, if you prefer to watch this on YouTube rather than listening just go to Altium's YouTube channel, click on videos and you'll see all of our podcasts there. So that is all the housekeeping. So let's get into the good stuff. So, about a week or so ago I got a message through LinkedIn - an introduction to this young lady Mary Elizabeth, and she was telling me about her company and we've since connected, had a couple conversations and I'm so excited to share what this young innovator has done. So Mary Elizabeth, welcome my dear I'm so glad to have you and thank you for taking the time to to meet with me today. Thank you it's such an honor to be on this podcast. Ya no, it's truly our honor. You know technology does so much for us in our lives but what you're doing is such a great human story. So tell us a little bit about your educational background and tell us about your parents and background, cuz I think that does a lot to set up your story? Yeah, yeah awesome. So I guess educational background; I studied Biomedical Engineering at Penn State, I graduated spring 2016. I was always really interested in Science and Math in high school - what else? So my dad, he was a Physics major at Penn State, he's gone into Engineering for really his whole career. He's worked a lot with CNC controls in the milling machine industry and then my mother, she has a Biology Degree, a Mechanical Engineering degree, and some Biomedical Engineering graduate work - actually on the artificial heart at Penn State - so you know my family's background and my own. Impressive. So you shared with me a little bit about - I had asked you: did you always know you were gonna go into engineering? So tell us a little bit about the things you and your dad used to do when you were young cuz I think it speaks to your story? Yeah so, growing up my parents really had an interesting - or an interest in - farming and fixing things around the house and not going out and buying something new and really just trying to understand how to repair motors like rototillers, tractors, things like that and I guess my dad would also buy little chemistry kits for us to work on in the basement and yeah, we kind of had a blast with that. But also, my parents always really encouraged me to try new things, and one of those new things was to go, after I graduated high school, to Ecuador and I decided to be a Rotary Exchange Student and so I spent a year in Ecuador and outside of high school I decided that it would kind of be cool to volunteer in an orphanage, and this orphanage specifically was for children and adults with disabilities. And this is kind of one of the things that it I had never really had this like experience coming from you know a student who grew up in the middle of Pennsylvania and there I was and I really was taken aback by a woman who was in a wheelchair sitting by the window who had cerebral palsy and couldn't speak. So I started asking her yes and no questions - wasn't getting a response back and then after, a couple days of working with her saw that she had voluntary movements. If it wasn't a blink of an eye and I figured out what was a yes movement and what was a no movement, what was a tremor, um and started kind of communicating with her in this way. And I - it kind of hit me that there were a lot of other individuals not just only in this orphanage but in this country who had these type of disabilities and didn't have someone there who was asking them these yes and no questions and figuring out what they like to do, what they didn't like to do. And then really the lack of opportunity because of their disability that they had. And I was, you know, 18 years old at the time, was going back to the United States to major in Biomedical Engineering, and I really thought you know, I would really like to create something to fix this and who did I tell - I told my dad - and my dad right away, was like: you can fix it, you can - we can figure it out you know, just like these little ideas that I had growing up that dad just was - got really excited about. Yeah I mean they're - I guess I didn't go into it a little bit, but growing up there was sometimes like when I was learning how to draw flowers and stuff he's like: we could, you know make, a milling machine that would draw these into bed boards and you can program it that way, and anyway, it just kind of was a natural thing for my father to just when that inventor side of me came out, for him to encourage that and not be some crazy idea but something that yeah would take a lot of work but I knew it was something I was really passionate about and you know I'm 26 now, and I'm still just as passionate about it and I'm really glad that my dad pressed me to move on with it. Well I was so impressed in our conversation where I almost felt like you were set up in this life to do the work you're doing because I remember you saying that when you were answering the yes and no questions, that you could see her countenance light up and she was in a better place after being able to communicate and I don't think any of us can imagine what it would be like to live with the frustration of not being able to communicate in a fluid way. And there are speech assistive devices available to people that are mostly affluent so what's the cost of speech assistive devices, on the market for people who have the money to buy them? Yeah, so you know, a speech generating device isn't just you know, a box like a tablet, it includes things like a mount, to put it on their wheelchair. It also includes different sensors you know, if they can't do direct selection and select on a board sometimes they need a sensor and that they can control with their foot, or even with their eye movement. So if you're looking at a full speech generating device, for a low-cost one six thousand dollars, for a full one you're looking at fifteen thousand dollars and sometimes even more, so it's a thing that has you know, made some headway on getting covered by insurance. But having a communication device covered by insurance can cause issues as well. Because sometimes it's not medically necessary, and then of course, people that don't have insurance, that can be really hard to get one. And is that kind of the disconnect you saw I mean, obviously people that are in Ecuador don't have that reach or that capacity. So is that sort of an area of compassion for you to go: they don't have access? Yeah absolutely. It was - it really was all about the access and not just in the price but also in the type of sensors to give people access to you know, control speech generating device not just with a finger, but with eyes. And knowing that you know, there's so much technology out there and I know in the beginning we prototyped with Arduino and Raspberry Pi and these really low-cost sensors that could like change someone's life and just like you said, can you imagine not being able to communicate and connect with someone? And to think that these low-cost sensors could allow someone to make relationships, to share their dreams with and that was definitely one of those things that you know, as a freshman engineering student really gave me a passion to bring these types of sensors that we are using every day you know, in our cell phones and in all this technology all around us but really adapting that for the disability community. So once you were in college, you have this idea, your dad's encouraging you. What was the next step for you? How did you start innovating and deciding to actually make a device? Yeah, so I guess as soon as that, the first thing I did was decide that I was going to make a device. I think that was just like that was... -that was a first step right? That was the first step. The training and the business model, that kind of all came later, but I guess the first thing that I did was, I took a trash can, I carved out two sticks, put a potentiometer in the middle of them and hook that up to an Arduino Mega and basically wrote a program that allowed someone to calibrate it to say what angle, or the threshold that they needed to to make a selection. And then had these WAV files playing that basically went through menus. So for example, one was like food, the other was emotions and so if they kick the foot and they move the potentiometer for the angle that it needed, with the width of threshold that would open up the food options and then they could you know select something like: I want to eat, or I want to cook, and then yeah made that a checkmark. Then I made a glove, so that somebody who could just you know, twitch their finger also press a finger on a surface and really the whole time I was thinking about the individuals that I worked with in Ecuador you know. At one point I was like: Christina could use this.. - Ah, I love that. -she was really - and she still is - I actually just saw her last summer, she's doing wonderful. But um really great foot control but nonverbal cerebral palsy like the things that she could do with her foot, I would give her you know my cell phone, and she could click down on a button. So I was thinking like, what is - - what are ways that I can create something that was wearable for independent communication? Because a lot of times these people didn't have caregivers that are around them all the time to make sure that their communication device was in the right position. But then as soon as I had a working prototype you know, it was like I gotta test this you know. Let's see if this works and if what I'm doing is completely you know, not gonna work and that's where I found Arlyn. Arlyn is from Johnstown Pennsylvania, she has cerebral palsy. She's in a residency home and she also has great control of her feet - very strong legs, similar to Christina. And we used the foot sensor for her to share her poetry for the first time. And were able to really adapt our program to do that, and right away there were things you know, that didn't work. We tried an insert into a shoe, and she was like you know that doesn't feel comfortable I don't want anything in my shoes - and really just started this design process with her you know and seeing what she would be comfortable wearing and also what was working and what was efficient. And how did that integrate into her daily life and be something that she did want to use to communicate every day. I love that you were collaborating with her, and that you gave her a voice to say, I don't like that in my shoe right. So to create this loop of instantaneous feedback, you gave her a voice, but you also gave her a vote on how she would interact with this device, how would I - that feels good, that doesn't feel good, this works for me and, by the way, for those that may be listening or watching, I will share the videos with Arlyn, they will make you tear up instantly. It's - this woman is a poet and her poetry is beautiful, and she is now sharing her poetry for the first time in her life because of Mary Elizabeth's ingenuity. -and Arlyn you know, she - she is so smart, and really our design has so much of her in it. And I talk about this sometimes, I know I talked about it with you. With people with disabilities - just you know - being problem solvers because they have had to overcome hurdles their whole life. Like Arlyn, she sets her VCR with her foot, so many people don't even know how to set their VCRs she's doing it... That's hilarious [laughter] -so many people don't even - caregivers who come around, they don't know how to work this VCR and you know, to make sure that, that experience and that perspective that she has, is in this assistive technology that we're developing and I think it's a really important population that really gets overlooked in technology and innovation and especially innovation, for the disability community.   Well you have no idea how much I just love you and what you're doing. It is such an amazing thing. In just the few videos that you have Mary Elizabeth, you can see the light in her eyes and you can see the camaraderie between the two of you and the deciphering and working together on how to make this the best fit for her - it's really a beautiful thing. And so, at some point in college, you got it working right, you got a working prototype right? And did you show that to your dad at some point or how? -Oh he was involved in this, this whole point. Oh he was, okay. -he you know, he had  and still does - in CNC controls, so you'd have little parts that we would need to mill out so we'd be talking you know: can can you make this design for us? We didn't even have a 3d printer at the time so - we have a 3d printer now which makes rapid prototyping - but yeah, yeah he was you know really alongside of us. But also it was, taking engineers - and a lot of times you know this happened with us - was people that had all this tech skill but never interfaced with people of disability and seeing where they could apply their skills, and how much an impact that could make on a life, and on many lives. And I think really, for my father, that was you know, a really aha moment, because you know a lot of times - people with disabilities - when you meet them for the first time, and if you're not used to it - you might think that they don't have anything to contribute, and that they don't have ideas because of their communication disabilities. Right. And me - when my dad saw Arlyn give us design advice - he was like: oh my god you know, here is this woman in the middle of Johnstown with all these ideas. We've been working in our lab and on the bench for a year, and like we didn't come up with these things, and right away she was like: hey why don't you try it just as you know, a switch here, and place it here, move the -  let's categorize the menus in a different way to make them more optimal and just all these ideas and it was really just a great way to break down the stigma of disabilities while helping people. I love, you know obviously, I've been in this industry for a long time and I love what technology can do you know, for people's lives. And I love that you've been able to make that connection. I love that, hearing about your dad that his eyes are so wide open and I think that is something you've really made me aware of, that makes complete sense to me now, it seems like an obvious thing is people that are not speech capable would be amazing problem solvers, they would have to be and so to have those as your collaborators. What a genius idea right, plus they're gonna be the ones using it so also to have a vote in how this is. So, you continued to develop it and then did you patent it at some point? Yeah so actually, my freshman year I filed for my first patent - provisional patent. Full application my sophomore year, which is a awesome you know. Two and a half - three years waiting to hear back from the patent examiner - but we were awarded our first patent November 2016. Exciting. Yeah it happened like two weeks before our IndieGoGo campaign went live, so there was just a lot of excitement going around that and yeah, so that was our first one down, hopefully many more to go, and we're always innovating new things around here. But yeah that was a huge, huge accomplishment for me. Yeah not many have their first patent awarded while they're in college - that's pretty neat. So you got your patent, and tell us about - you had mentioned on the phone about - I think it was in your junior year about Penn State coming up with a Young Entrepreneur program and so you started filing for some competitions or some things that would actually give you some funding to help move you forward? Yeah, so really in my junior years I kind of had this realization that if I was gonna make the impact that I wanted - a large social impact - I was gonna have to scale. If I was gonna scale, I would need a really sustainable business model to fuel that. So luckily right around ProjectVive's birth, Penn State and President Barron launched the Invent Penn State initiative which started Happy Valley Launchbox, which was a no-cost business accelerator downtown for students and community members so I, we applied for that - we were the first ones in - and so being the first cohort team, it was like an empty building, no one was there at the time, and yeah it was actually really cool for us 'cause we went from like being a dorm, to like having this awesome space. But then, they had, an NQ competition where we pitched ProjectVive in front of a shark tank kind of set up at our University, and it was actually aired on WPSU and we got $17,000 from that - which was huge for us at that time. That's a lot of money yeah. Yeah and that really just gave us validation, that what we were creating was something that was needed. It also pressed us to do a market analysis and realize that wow, there are so many people that need these type of devices that just can't afford it, or don't know that it exists. So yeah I took advantage of that in college. So, before we go forward. Something we didn't mention, but I think it's good to insert here is - so jumping ahead for a moment - what is your plan to market the Voz Box at one, two, go to market? Yeah, so you know I really have a passion for developing countries and also South America. So two things of how we're gonna go to market: One is - there's a lot of trade shows for people with disabilities - so there's ATIA the Assistive Technology International Association, ASHA, and where you can set up a booth and speech-language pathologists, parents, teachers and also a bit of alternative communication users, or people with disabilities that use speech generating devices will come to learn about new technologies. So that's definitely one way. We're also doing kind of grassroots - by reaching out to local disability organizations here in State College, that also have chapters all over the world, so and definitely all over the US - Easterseals, we've done a collaboration with them. So what is your price point right now -  we're projecting, I'm not - we won't hold you to this but what's your projected price point that you'd like to sell it for? Yeah our projected price point is $500. $500 ? Yeah that's for the full communication device. And then also, we're gonna be doing a lot of open source devices that can help you and ways of creating mounting systems on your own, to even get that lower. It's incredible. Like I see that as such a, I mean, lowering the barrier to entry to almost anyone right. Because I wanted to mention the price point before we move ahead - and so you won the $17,000 then you entered a couple other competitions tell us about those? Yeah, so we applied for the ALS Association and Prize for Life Assistive Technology Challenge, where we were one of five out of 87 teams, it was an international competition, and we were flown out to Ireland where they brought in... - Wow. -Yeah, and they brought in ALS patients from all over the world to try out our technology which was a really important thing for me. I've had two uncles who have passed away with ALS and even though I had a lot of work with people with children and adults with cerebral palsy ALS is a terrible disease and 75% of people with ALS will lose their voice. You have two to five years to live after diagnosis, and to see our devices, that I had created you know, thinking of specifically people in this orphanage but then realizing that people like my uncles could also use these devices. We had someone from Iceland, another person from Japan. We've developed also these little blink detector glasses that you can basically blink to select, and he used those and he loved them, and he was able to spell out a word and just to see someone from Japan, to meet us in Ireland try out our devices, and realize that so many people around the world - not only with cerebral palsy - but with ALS and Rett Syndrome, it just really opened my eyes to the impact that this could have. And also getting this support from the ALS Association was really awesome. That's an incredible story. You have a video on that also right Elizabeth? Okay, so we're going to share that one as well in the show notes. And the last award that I think you mentioned to me had to do with Cisco right? So tell us about that one. Well I'll let you tell the story, but because I know you had an IndieGoGo campaign too, and a patent, you had lots going on. So spell it out however - how you know - I may be getting these things out of order so. Actually you're not. Okay good. So then - this is actually last summer - we applied for the Cisco Global Problem Solvers, a challenge which was inaugural, it was also the first Global Problem Solver Challenge that they've had. Some recent projects these days are the guinea pig for everything. But yeah, so we applied for that , and I really could talk about my mission, and working with you know, people in Ecuador, and just the low price point and how this - this wasn't just for people in the US, for people in Ecuador, but also we did a little work with a professor in communication disorders, who was in Sri Lanka, we sent a device out to to her where she used it with a boy who was 17 years old , with cerebral palsy. And it's just so many places in the world, don't have access to this type of technology. And in schools and education also, in just adult community life. So we applied for that, made a video for it, and they had this People's Choice Award. So the main award was for $100,000, and the People's Choice was for 10k. And I got everyone to vote for us, you know I sent out to my professors, 'vote for us'! you know ProjectVive, all my friends and family and all of Arlyn's friends and family too. Then that - the day that they were gonna announce it, I kept on refreshing the People's Choice page and all of a sudden I realized that you know this team from Costa Rica won, and I was like, oh man you know, we didn't get the people's choice! And then I checked my email, and it said: 'Congratulations Grand Prize Winner Cisco - - $100,000.' Oh my gosh, you won a hundred grand! I know, and I was like, what's going on? That's not 10k, and that I mean, I'm still - I still can't believe it. And you know this - it's been a couple months now - but that just really pumped into our research and development and got us to where we are right now in creating our final product. And yeah, we're just really, really thankful for that support. That's amazing. I gotta say I'm not surprised, but it's the best story ever. And then so lastly, tell us about the IndieGoGo campaign and - and your Road to Ten Voices that ended up being more than ten voices? Yeah so we did an IndieGoGo campaign: Journey to Ten Voices and we - I was actually in Ireland for like the end of it - but we raised enough for 14 voices actually, so that was really exciting. And really yeah - that's really allowed us to reach out to the community. For instance, a recipient of one of our Journey to Ten - well 14 Voices - was a 16 year-old, who lives an hour outside of State College and he's doing great. And we also helped him out with a wheelchair gas pedal so he not only is using his speech generating device with an e-sensor, but is also able to independently move around which has been so cool and he's just learning so much from having a device that really wasn't reliable before we helped him. And then you know, just learning from another person, so it's been really cool. That's something else, we have pictures so when Mary Elizabeth introduced herself to me on LinkedIn she sent me a screenshot of him getting his Voz, and you've never seen a kid smile this big in your life you know. I thought he was gonna rip his ears off with a smile - he was just so happy and it just makes -  you can see me also, I got this smile-grin talking to you this whole time. It's just a beautiful story. So now you have seed money right? And so tell us where you are now, and kind of what the next year or so holds as you forge forward? Yeah - so really, it was a great thing that this whole time we've been working with users, also talking with you know doctors, and teachers that we did the I-Corps Program, where we interviewed 50 people from all over the world. Parents, speech-language pathologists, doctors, teachers, augmentative alternative communication users themselves, and really took one - you know, the user testing that we did, our feedback, what we've learned, the market analysis that we've done - and then also these interviews, to test our assumptions and make our final product. So really what we're developing now - it's the next thing of our beta product and creating something that we believe is going to be able to scale, that we can bring to places like Ecuador and Sri Lanka, and that we're gonna be able to make a sustainable business model on because I know I talked to you about this. We really want to make sure that once we give a voice that we don't take it away, and I think that it's been a great thing that during college I've been able to experiment and test and really have this quick feedback loop and creating something that will make a long lasting impact so that's what we're doing now. I think that really shows so much a vision on your part actually Mary Elizabeth, because I can't imagine - again I can't imagine giving someone a voice and then having to take it away right, that would be so devastating, and that you've had the foresight to make sure that it's sustainable and and that you're looking at it, not only from an engineering and visionary, but a very practical standpoint to make sure that you're gonna build a solid business. So I really appreciate that about you. Yeah there's got to be someone there to answer the phones when something goes wrong. Right, right so I love that you're actually building a sound company and and having good mentors and, and helping you along, and that you have a really solid vision on this. Well what else do we need to talk about? So you're heading towards a scalable product. I think I'll insert here that I got to meet Mary Elizabeth's and project Phoebe's CTO, Trip what's Trip's last name? Miller. Miller, I got to meet Trip Miller and we had a call, so one of the roadblocks that they ran into, is that they were using basically a free design tool that got them this far but they they needed something farther and God bless Altium. They were able to sponsor Mary Elizabeth and ProjectVive, and give them a license of Altium Designer, so they've been having a lot of fun trips - being like a kid in a candy store... [laughter] I know, we really have, I mean the trouble that we have gone through and also just working with other collaborators and not being able to get the right schematics for them and and having to basically transfer, not only our Altium files or -  I don't want to say that exact names - Yeah I know, I was trying to avoid that too. Some companies' schematic... [gestures] yeah. But we've just been able to very quickly start up and I know that it took us about you know four hours to start up our other PCB programs and with Altium, like within an hour, we were creating traces, which was just awesome. So we are so excited and just being able, it's - it's accelerated our development and we're very thankful for it. We feel lucky, we feel like we get to remove - we get to have the privilege of removing a roadblock for you and just let you charge ahead my dear, so good good for you and Trip. And I'm really glad that we really have the privilege, to do that for you. So we are gonna list in the show notes everything about ProjectVive, the Voz Box, your - like anything you want us to share, let's share it because it's a beautiful story and all of us that love technology, love to see kind of the social aspect of doing good. Doing good in the world, through use of innovation and technology and you're kind of like a STEM-girl poster child which is really fun for me as a woman in tech to see how you came up, and your parents, how they inspired you, and this is really great. What else should we share with the listeners? Have I skipped anything - what else can we talk about, have we missed anything? Um you know, if you really do feel moved by ProjectVive's story, we do have a fiscal sponsor, so we accept tax-deductible donations and if you go to Projectvive.com - you can hit the donate button or just support us, like us on social media and share our story, and if you have any family members that would be interested in our technology, let us know and we would love to help. Great - well thank you this has been the highlight of my day and we will also be sharing Mary Elizabeth's story - I've interviewed her already and she will be also in the OnTrack newsletter, coming up in June, and so keep your eyes open for that. If you do not subscribe to the OnTrack newsletter, you can go to our resource hub and subscribe - there's a newsletter tab there, and you can subscribe. So if you're not already subscribed, you can subscribe there and again in the newsletter we'll include all these links in that because we certainly want to put her on the Altium platform, and celebrate all this young innovator's doing. So Mary Elizabeth, you are the best, thank you so much for spending your time today I know you're a busy woman and we'll stay in touch and thank you again for all you're doing, we just think you're wonderful. Thank you so much Judy, and thank you so much to Altium, and we're just very blessed, thank you so much. Thank you. Again, this has been Judy Warner with the OnTrack podcast with Mary Elizabeth McCulloch of ProjectVive, we look forward to hanging out with you again on this podcast. Until then, remember to always stay OnTrack.

Well I'll never record moments before going on a trip again. I sure talk fast this episode, but the music sure is a good time. We've got some ska jazz, some of Colorado's finest, and new stuff that's sure to become favorites. Featuring music by The Dance Crashers, Sao Paulo Ska Jazz, Quito Ska Jazz, The Breachers, Roka Hueka, Younger Than Neil, Vendetta, Ghost Town Steppas, and Heavensbee!

Well I'll be.

In episode #30, Wilco talks how you can 10X your marketing and growth without some clever hack. Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:53: I want to dive into how you can 10X your marketing or 10X your growth without some clever hack. 00:59: Something that's going to keep them working today, tomorrow, next year and over the next ten years as well. 03:13: The way I look at it, in order to 10X your marketing is really just to get yourself out of it. 03:27: You need to find a way to tap into a certain traffic source, which doesn't take you too much time. 03:37: In 2018, I want to publish more and better content for our audience and for our customers. 05:09: The three steps are to systemize something, automate it and delegate it. 05:25: The first thing when I think of content marketing, I need to make it more concrete. 07:07: What I recommend you to do in various of your tasks is that you really try to break down what exact steps you're doing. 08:10: Because as sexy as delegating is, automating is always better. 08:12: If you can automate it, it's cheaper, it's more reliable, it's always good. 10:36: At the end of the day, what's even more important is that you understand common business practices. Transcription:                  Hey, what's up. It's me, Wilco de Kreij here back with you again in the very first podcast episode of 2018. We're actually already two weeks into the year, so it's been a while since I recorded the last episode, and I would say with good reason. I feel that over the last couple of episodes, I always start out like, oh it's been a while, so I should probably be more consistent with my podcast, which is actually kind of what this episode is about as well. So in this podcast, I want to dive into how you can ten X your marketing or ten X your growth without some clever hack. We're not going to talk about some clunky hack that may only work today or this week or this month, but something that's going to keep them working today, tomorrow, next year and over the next ten years as well. And I think that's really important if you grow a business. If you're running your business, you don't want to rely on things that are just working for a little while, you want to focus on things that keep on working day in, day out, for a long period of time, because that is how you reach true momentum in your business, and that's how you truly reach your goals.              It's actually been an exciting time for me. It's 2018 like I said, I'm having very big plans for this year for both UpViral and for Connectio. I couldn't be more excited. And on a personal level, it's going well as well. In a couple days from now, I actually get the keys for my new dream home, which is pretty fantastic. I'm really excited about it. We've been looking forward to this moment, me and my wife, for a long time, so it's good.              But let's not bore you with my personal stuff. So how do we actually ten X your marketing without clever hacks? Well I'll tell you. Basically there are so many things you can do in business or in marketing that you know will get you results. You can do, for example, content marketing. You see all these kind of people who are bragging about content marketing and it's the best thing ever. And then others, they're focusing on paid ads, on Facebook ads, or YouTube ads, and it's the best thing ever for them. And others, they're focusing on the affiliate model. They're having affiliates promoting their product and they say it's the best thing ever.             No matter what state at your business you're currently at, you'll have to admit that a lot of these things, they work, but the problem is, you need to put in the work to make them work. It's not like you're going to give it a try on content marketing, publish a couple of blog posts, and all of a sudden, you are at the top of everyone's mind, you're getting leads in, you're getting customers. It's not that simple, and it doesn't matter which channel you're using, every channel or every traffic source will have its challenges and basically you'll have to learn about it to see how it works. The way I look at it, in order to ten X your marketing is really just to get yourself out of it and it may seem simpler than it is. What I mean with get yourself out of it is that you need to find a way to tap into a certain traffic source, which doesn't take you too much time.              I'll give you an example. Currently, I am rethinking my content marketing strategy. So I want to, in 2018, publish more and better content for our audience and for our customers as a way to basically create momentum and drive more traffic, reach new audiences. So it's a marketing tool. Now there's multiple things I could do. Let's say I'm like, cool, I'm going to do content marketing so I'm going to create videos, I'm going to create blog posts, I'm going to do a lot of social media posting, I'm going to do a Facebook and LinkedIn, maybe not Twitter, that's not as big as it used to be, but I'm going to do all these things. Let's say if I would do all these things, it would take me a ton of time. Like seriously a lot. There's a direct correlation. I only have X amount of days in the week or in the day, and if I start doing all these things myself, then obviously it's not going to work out. I would not be able to keep working, growing, I would not be able to work on new features or come up with new tools for connecting or whatever.              Even though I want to create that content machine, that content marketing machine, there's no way I can do it all myself. The easy way to think is like, all right, just hire someone to do it. I've been at that spot as well where I start outsourcing and then I figured all right, I'm just going to find someone who can already do it, and that's it. Easy Peasy, they will do it, and I don't have to do anything. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. What I learned is actually I need to implement a three step process if you want to get it done right, and that's how I currently do it.              The three steps are to systemize something, automate it and delegate it.  I'll just keep on talking about the content marketing plan that I'm currently working on. Like I said, systemize, automate and delegate. The first thing when I think of content marketing, I need to make it more concrete. I need to know exactly what parts I'm going to do. Let's say if we're writing a blog post, you could say, well we're going to write a blog post. No, that's not enough. I'm actually dialing in, and I'm thinking about the process, like how do we make sure to go from nothing to a fully published blog post that is promoted at various places.             Now if we break it down in small steps, and this is what I call systemizing it, the very first step is idea creation. We need to come up with the idea, what we're going to write about. And then research, like are we going to use some articles, what's going to be in there. And then usually we go for like a bullet point section where there basically is a synopsis of what the blog post is going to be about, then the blog post will actually be written, then there will be editing as well to make sure it's all good, images will be added.             There's a checklist of things that basically checks if everything is in order, like are the subtitles in order, like any kind of things that we need to check before being published, then we publish it, and then we go into promotion. And of course promotion in turn is like a certain systemized way. Perhaps we want to say all right, we want to post it on Facebook three times over the next three weeks, and we want to post it on LinkedIn, and we want to rewrite the article to post on LinkedIn, or maybe we want to create a video out of it as well, and we want to publish that on YouTube.              There's certain steps involved. What I'm trying to say is instead of just going at something, instead of just seeing how it goes and every single time you're sort of reinventing the wheel, what I recommend you to do in various of your tasks is that you really try to break down what exact steps you're doing. Because once you know what exact steps you're taking, then you're able to see the full process, and then you create something that can be repeated. If something can be repeated, it can be repeated by someone else as well. It's really important to basically create whatever you're working on. Whatever marketing channel you're working, whatever it is you're working on, try to break it down in small steps and see if there's a one pattern that every single time you're doing that task, all these steps have to be taken.              Because once you ... Sometimes it can take a little practice, but once you're able to identify it, and once you're able to create all these small steps, then it already becomes easier to start outsourcing it later on. But before I start outsourcing, right after I sort of systemize it and I actually have in my mind or on paper, what exact steps need to be taken, then I go to the automate section and I ask myself what can be automated. Because as sexy as delegating is, automating is always better. If you can automate it, it's cheaper, it's more reliable, it's always good.              Often times, there are parts in that list of tasks that can be automated. For example, with content marketing, I could automate, set up, set an automation that once something is published and work for us, it would immediately be added into a buffer so that automatically there will be something going out to some social media networks for example. There's always things you could automate or I could automate on Trello, if a certain Trello or management system where we basically, a project management system in our business that we use to maintain tasks and see who's doing what, et cetera, so I could automate it. If a certain blog post is done, it's published, then automatically it will add a to do to the person who's doing our promotion to make sure that they know exactly what this article needs to be promoted to here, here, here and here.  That's also a part of the automation.              I ask myself which part can be automated. And only after that, I look at it and like which part can be delegated. Because obviously there's things that you may need to do, and there's other things that perhaps you could easily delegate. If you look at the whole picture, if you look at, all right I want to outsource, for example my content marketing, or I want to outsource for example Facebook ads, or I want to outsource like this whole big thing. It's going to be really hard to find the right person who's doing it in a way that you want him to do. It's really hard. However, once you start breaking it up, you start to systemizing whatever you're working on, then all of a sudden, it's suddenly a lot easier, because there's usually smaller tasks that require a specific skill. Maybe you as the entrepreneur, you have like 1,000 hats and you know all these skills, you have all these skills and you know how to learn it, but someone else may be really good at copywriting, but they may not be good at designing, for example, just as an example. Then you know, all right, I need to find someone who can write a good copy and also someone who is able to create good images, for example.             That's really it. We can all thing about all these sexy tricks and hacks and whatever could rank us number one on Google or get us more social reach on Facebook or whatever, and all these things, it's true, it matters, and I like to experiment with new things as well, I do that a lot, actually, however at the end of the day, what's even more important is that you understand common business practices and one of them is definitely this three step process to whatever you're doing. Systemize, automate and delegate. It's incredibly, incredibly important and once you're a master at that, everything becomes so much easier because you can take on so, so much more ideas and work and projects, et cetera, et cetera because you create a system for it first, you automate part of it, you delegate the rest and you are there only at the beginning part.             We'll talk about our content marketing. What my idea is, in a nutshell, is really like I prefer to create videos. I'm not a very good writer, so my idea is, and we're going to see how this works out. My idea is I'm going to create a lot of video content, and then I create various processes to turn that video content into various articles for different places. I'll have someone to create, to turn that video into a blog post, to that what I'm saying on camera will be used on text as well. Then if it's relevant, we may be able to create an infographic from it. Also just with a clear process, a step by step plan. Not all of these things will be ready right away, but my goal is throughout this year, I'm going to build a repeatable process and basically a content marketing machine where I can just put in my input, share my ideas and thoughts and knowledge, and then my team will be able to either automate and delegate, to make sure we produce all this content on all kinds of places online.             That's it for all of you who don't have enough time in the day. Systemize, automate and delegate. It's incredibly effective. If you're not a master at it, become a master at it, because it's going to change your life and your business. That's it for now, and I will see you all in the next episode.        

Hello Boss, It's me The Not S̶a̶f̶e̶ ... uh...Suitable For Worker Placement Podcast. I'm calling to let you know that I could and probably should stay home do to illness and also to inform you that I will report for duty at my scheduled time. Although I am gravely sick, I hate the idea of leaving you in the lurch, so I'll be there! Why am I calling to tell you this? Is it because I want to solidify myself as a really dedicated worker? Is it just to ease you fears since other have called in frequently lately? Well I'll tell you why it isn't. It isn't because I plan on going to a raging kegger next Friday and am absolutely sure I won't be working on Saturday, that much you can be sure of! And so it goes listeners in this the 11th Episode! We fight through sniffles, sneezes and the occasional hacking coughing fit (mostly edited out, I think) to bring you a fantastic double sized episode! We've always lived by the motto that it's about quantity not quality, always leave em wanting less, that's what we always say! We talk games we've played including Magic Maze and Viticulture and have a fantastic interview with Jerry Hawthorne, the creator behind Mice & Mystics and Stuffed Fables. He gives us some candid behind the scenes info on the making and inspiration of these two fantastic family games. Then in our feature we give some recommendations of games to play with your family, from little kiddos on up to your surly Uncle! So start coughing in front of your boss right now and set yourself up for a relaxing day off tomorrow to devote your full attention to this stupendous 11th episode of The Not S̶a̶f̶e̶ Suitable For Worker Placement Podcast!

Cass Midgley and Dr. Bob Pondillo converse with Rusty Shackleford. That's not his real name. Like many of our guests, they're not completely out as non-religious to everyone and for their own personal reasons wish to keep it that way. Rusty is a 31 year old mental health counselor. He holds two Master’s Degrees in Early Childhood Development/Education and Counseling. He's lived in TN his entire life, and church was always a part of his upbringing.  He grew up in the Church of Christ (with music) and Freewill Baptist. He played drums on the worship team and was involved in the children’s ministry and driving the church vans to pick up the children in the housing developments for the Wednesday night program. Rusty began chipping away at parts of his belief in his 20s, first dropping the literal interpretation, then realizing that the story of the Christ was a repackaged story from folklore of many other religions and belief systems that pre-dated Christianity. He tried attending a church that was a “Progressive" Christian Community, and found a lot of peace within this congregation, but also found that I simply could not align himself with even the most liberal of Christian beliefs.   After interviewing people every week for over three years, most of the guests have told me that it proved to be a catalystic event in their lives. Something shifts. It can have a rattling effect or it wakes them up in a way or emboldens them to do something significant. People have gone on to start their own podcasts or write that book or come out to their parents, etc. Bob and I forget how nervous guests can be when they come on and almost everyone is at first. And I think that's perfectly normal and even right, since their story is now available to the world for the rest of time, or at least as long the electrical grid stays intact. Either way, people will be able to access it long after we're all dead. I just think its cool how many ways the show is changing lives. Who knew? that Bob and I started this thing that it would create such a beautiful community of people. I've never been a part of something so beautiful. If you'd like to be more involved, add me on FB, private message me that you'd like to be in the private support community of this podcast. If you're middle TN, there's a group, and there's also an international group, and the conversations that take place there (completely private) are so beautiful. I'm grateful for the courage of all the guests who have come on here and shared their story so that thousands of others could be encouraged and feel less alone, less crazy, less afraid. One more thing I'd like to share. Back in January, I was diagnosed at Vanderbilt Psychiatric with clinical depression. I ended up in the hospital because I was suicidal. I was suicidal because I was thinking crazy thoughts, believed crazy thoughts, and as a result my anxiety and depression came unhinged from reality. I was prescribed medication and things started to get better. So much better that I thought I was fine, that my anxiety was sparked by circumstances and when the behavioral medicine doctor I was seeing was charging me $60 co-pay every two weeks to see him, I took the liberty to stop going and eventually ran out of meds. Well they didn't tell me that this kind of medicine has to be taken for a year or it'll drop you back down like a rock to the state that got me there. And this last month, it did just that. The way it manifests is that if I'm alone in my thoughts for more than 30 minutes, I start to get anxious. I get a tension in my abdomen area, my thoughts race into a vortex of panic and fear and rage and resentment and I start hating. Myself and people in my life. I start distrusting everyone and I marvel at their ignorance. Why can't they see what's happening. Well I'll tell you why. Because it's not happening. It's in my imagination. And if you don't think mental illness is real, then it's only because you haven't experienced that particular disfunction personally. I remember counseling a young man, as his pastor, about his fear of dying in his sleep. It was really debilitating. He fought sleep, he had anxiety attacks, he drank heavilly to cope. I didn't relate. I wanted to tell him, "Dude, you're not going to die in your sleep. You're 30. You're healthy. The odds are astronomical." Essentially I was saying, "stop thinking that way." And that was naive. He needed real help. He eventually got it and he's fine today. But no thanks to me.   I was sharing with someone this week that I was excited to get back on my meds. I don't want to put too much hope in things but it may be why I drink as much as I do. It may be why I smoke. I may be why I'm unmotivated in life. Why I can't write the books I know I have inside me. Basically, I've been just trying to stay alive AND slowly killing myself at the same time. I told her, "help is on the way." Now I used to be a big Bryan Duncan fan and we were reminded of an old song of his called Help is on the Way.  So just for kicks we found it online and played it. But notice that he blames Lucifer--the author of confusion--for the suicidal thoughts. The way my brain plays tricks on me can feel like a separate entity. We've talked a few times on this podcast about Sam Harris' question, what is the self? So the fact that our brain is firing constantly, feeding us thoughts with or without our permission can feel like we're possessed by another thinker. Secular people reference this metaphorically as "he's fighting his own demons" which is apt metaphor but within most forms of Christianity, Satan is real. Is it so that we can blame something outside of ourselves? So we're not responsible? so God's not responsible for giving us such fucked up brains? who knows why people throughout history have ascribed mental illness to demons, but I no longer have that luxury. I have to get help--real, scientific help. And I'm glad to so and certainly unashamed to do so. I go back to my prescription this week and I'm sure it takes weeks for the effects to start remapping my neural pathways, but it'll be interesting to see how it changes how I show up as an interviewer, but more importantly as a human being, a husband, father, co-worker and friend. I'm excited to find out.  We taped this conversation on September 10th, 2017. We interview people you don’t know, about a subject no one wants to talk about. We hope to encourage people in the process of deconstructing their faith and help curb the loneliness that accompanies it. We think the world is a better place when more people live by sight, not by faith. Please subscribe to our podcast, and leave a review wherever you listen to podcasts. Our show is available on most podcast platforms.  Also, you can support us monetarily in two easy ways: you can pledge one dollar per episode or more through Patreon; that’s www.patreon.com/eapodcast, or leave a lump-sum donation through PayPal at our website, www.everyonesagnostic.com. The smallest contribution is greatly appreciated. Credits:"Towering Mountain of Ignorance" intro by Hank Green https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3v3S82TuxU Intro bumper "Never Know" by Jack JohnsonThe segue music on this episode is a song that was influential in Rusty's deconversion: The Pig by Showbread. Thanks for listening and try to cooperate with reality.

On this week's Dukect Lounge I get into the question that I have been think about for a while. With recent NXT wrestlers going to the WWE main roster and not connecting with the crowd or even finding a good place on the main cards on PPV's or even put in good storylines. What is happening with these now WWE Superstars not connecting with the main audience why is that? Well I'll throw my 2 cents on the subject. Also a new Video game study is now out and its saying that playing action video games can be detrimental to the brain. I'll talk about that study as well and more here on the Lounge

After leaving the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses we learned even more eye-opening things about it. Then we applied the same scrutiny to the book that everything we ever believed was based on. Where did we end up? How is our life now? How will I end this last episode of my story? Listen to find out. Direct Download Here [expand title="Click Here To Show Transcript"] [00:01:59] I'm going to break down the nearly two years since my wife and I left the call in different sections to tie up some loose ends and and report on what life has been like after the call. So let's just jump right in. First section we're going to talk about is what I've learned since leaving the cold about the cold admittedly Jehovah's Witnesses know very little about the religion that they pledged their loyalty to. As far as history goes and they also honestly don't know a lot about what is involved in it. Presently you see a good magician only shows you what they want you to see. They don't slow things down and show you the sleight of hand used to make the allusion appear seamless to your naked eye. I've had time now to slow things down to get away from the indoctrination and to get that detailed look at things that I never even had any clue were going on. Around the time that I was coming out there were two big events that happened in the Colts. First the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses. Again these are the leaders of the cult. They started coming out from behind the curtain. Now when I was growing up. One of the selling points of the cult was that our leaders were unknown to us. So it couldn't be a call right. You know these people were behind the scenes they weren't doing it for personal glory. So it wasn't like we were following some man. Well those men have now decided to make themselves known. And it is glorious. [00:03:28] Now I'm just going to sit here and take shots at them unnecessarily. But if you've ever seen a picture of them or if you ever hear them speak the mental illness in them just drips off their words one of them looks like a caricature of Cecil the turtle from the old Bugs Bunny cartoons and speaks about like him. It is so creepy. Others have he's really flat facts as though they are dead inside something that kind of tends to do anyway to people by robbing them of their humanity. But they are truly caricatures. Now one day around when I left there was a huge meeting that was broadcast throughout all the congregations. This was a big deal. [00:04:11] It was a special thing and everyone flocked to their kingdom halls to watch this live stream on video screens of the governing body during a special meeting. This [00:04:21] wasn't something that the average Jehovah's Witness ever got to see. [00:04:26] There were these annual meetings that were held up at Bethel or the headquarters in New York in New York City. But this wasn't something that the average person got to participate in. But they took the opportunity to come out pretty much to great fanfare to be seen on these video screens that each congregation would either buy or rent so that they could show the members this live stream now this is a great chance. [00:04:58] The governing body could speak to anything they wanted anything in the world. They had their subs subjects were captive they could encourage them in any way they wanted. Would you like to know what the highlight from that meeting was Anthony Morris one of the governing body members used his 15 minutes of fame to go on a rant about tight pants tight pants. [00:05:25] In fact he is no now as tight pants Tony he could have talked about anything he could have encouraged single parents that were going through tough times. He could have encouraged young people that had to live a messed up life in the cold. But instead he chose to harp on things like how tight the pants were that people were wearing. And if you don't like it as he is so fond of saying take it up with God because you know that's right there in the Bible in the book of fashion you know the chapter about how tight your pants should be. He he talked about those Spanx as he called them just to show how out of touch he is. He talked about those Spanx as he called them that women used to work out in. And how appalling it was that they would ever wear those out of the house. Then he went on to talk about how the homosexuals that design men's pants want to see you in those tight pants the more slender dress pants as opposed to the pleated pans that looked like balloons were. Remember those as I remember when I was younger you'd wear these pleated pants a little balloons in your crotch when you sit down. Well you know these homosexuals they're just making you wear these tight pants so they can see your bold young men. That's what it's about. You could see how out of touch these human beings are what their world view is like in just a few statements. It doesn't take a lot. [00:06:51] You don't have to get to know these men. This man is a God. A G O D or a guardian of doctrine as they literally referred to themselves as at one point. What a shame that instead of helping people. All he did was put more burdens on them like the Pharisees in Jesus day that Jehovah's Witnesses liked to poke fun at that talk helped to wake a lot of people up. He even went on a rant about the socks that brothers wore with crazy colors on them or designs really now also around that time was the live streaming online of the Australian Royal Commission. The FARC is investigating religions in Australia and how they deal with childhood sexual abuse in their organisations. Now it isn't just Jehovah's witnesses that were being investigated but it was the Jehovah's Witnesses that got special attention not just from those of us that were watching. Ex Jacob's but from the commission itself you see ANGUS STEWART Now a hero among us ex SJ Dubbs was not fooled by the court's appearance and persona. He went in prepared in part because the ex Jehovah's Witness community reached out and gave him things that helped him to prosecute the witnesses in his court. I'll let you in on a little something regarding Jehovah's Witnesses and child sexual abuse or honestly abuse of any kind. Let's say that Little Susie claims that a relative molested her she tells her Jehovah's Witness parents first her parents will go to the elders not to the police but to the elders as that is pretty much how everything is handled in the creation's. [00:08:38] Then once they're little Susie would have to sit down in front of men elders and tell them what happened. Faced probing questions into it again. I think I mentioned earlier they want to know all the details. Then the elders would call the legal department at Watchtower headquarters for advice on how to proceed. Now Jehovah's Witnesses will deny that this is the case but the case is that Jehovah's Witnesses have always been discouraged from going to the police. As a general rule remember they're concerned more about appearance than anything and they will avoid the courts because they don't want the organisation to look bad publicly just like they'll encourage people that seek psychiatric care. So then please don't disclose that you're one of Jehovah's Witnesses because it reflects badly on them. So Susie has now been through this ordeal and the elders would then go confront the relative in the congregation that was accused of molesting her. Often it would come down to a judicial hearing and the little girl would have to face the person that she accused often an adult and likely a man in this scenario in front of three men in the end unless the accused confessed. There could be nothing done unless there was a second witness. Now how many times do you think someone witnesses such predatory behavior. So the relative goes free to molest others and only if another person comes forward later. Will they then have their two witnesses. They have what's called the two witness rule. They take it from one particular verse in the Bible out of the mouth of two witnesses and they use it in this particular scenario. [00:10:27] And because people aren't going to the police it really causes a lot of problems and there's a lot of behavior that has repeated There was an elder that was being shaken down by Angus Stewart that was on the stand in the course of questioning Mr. Stewart asked him what he was doing to protect the general public. Her he got all indignant and was like well you know of course we care about other kids but how could we protect everyone. Well Mr. Stewart beautifully pointed out that by keeping everything in-house and avoiding taking matters like this to the police they were at best only trying to protect those in their own cult and that even if the abuser confessed and was disfellowshipped that did nothing to protect the community at large from a predator. The elder as if thinking about this for the first time in his life thinking about other people he turned blood red and was humiliated. You see Jehovah's Witnesses are so full of themselves that they don't even consider outsiders. This was an eye opener. In the end over 1000 cases of pedophilia were documented and not one was ever reported to the authorities. Jehovah's Witnesses have a policy of also destroying notes taken during such questionings of abuse cases and when questioned on the stage on the stand as to whether or not they would continue doing so. They said yeah that's our policy because again it's policy over people. Now people have even been threatened with disfellowshipping if they were to take these accusations of abuse to the police. Justice McClellan who was presiding over that court pointed out that Jehovah's Witnesses were the worst organization that he had seen in dealing with this. [00:12:22] And the quote was defiance at every turn in areas where they were expected to cooperate. They even hired an outside expert to sing their praises. That was snowed by them as to what the reality was. [00:12:36] And then when this woman gets up on the stand she looks like a complete tool because she had to admit as their own hired expert that they were not doing what they should be doing at all. [00:12:49] She didn't realize what the real situation was and so she got on the stand. She had gone by what the organization had told her. All the flowery things about how wonderful they are and then when she got confronted with the reality of it she had to admit what that reality was she was absolutely taken apart on the stand. [00:13:11] In fact it's also funny that they have a woman up there as an expert in the first place. [00:13:16] We all know as the Jehovah's Witnesses at least know that only those with a male appendage know anything of use. They're the only ones who could be an expert for them to actually put a woman up there. It's just so counter to who Jehovah's Witnesses are. In fact the court was hoping that the court would allow women to hold a role in these types of abuse cases particularly where girls or women were being abused so that they didn't have to go speak to men about it. And of course the court declined to consider that I could go on and on. I could do an entire podcast about the RCC alone but I'll leave it there. The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses actually has a database of thousands upon thousands of such accusations of pedophilia and even known pedophiles who have confessed to what they did. They have a database of thousands upon thousands of these situations around the globe that they keep secret. The court is not co-operative and holds those databases close even redacting basically any information they want when forced to cooperate by the judicial system. Further showing how little Jehovah's Witnesses regard outsiders was another event that happened at the time there was a massive earthquake in Nepal that killed thousands and injured tens of thousands. It was a nightmare it was all over the news well the way the witnesses react it bothered me so much as I was waking up. That actually put a post up on one of the SJW forums in a thread entitled they only care about themselves. [00:15:02] I said I've watched the reaction to the Nepal disaster for the first time with eyes open. What do I see. [00:15:09] Lots of comments about praying for the brothers and sisters affected the official release on the Web site because the witnesses main web site they actually have kind of like a media section where they address things that happen in the world regarding them. [00:15:26] So there is this official release on their Web site references only the sister and her two children that died along with the impact on the brothers there. That's it for an organization that is supposed to be marked by love for all of the gum flapping about how much love for neighbor they show. They can't even be bothered to shout out to the thousands killed and their families and friends. Would it be too much to even acknowledge that other people you know the ones that you supposedly love so much that you go and preach to them door to door even exists. [00:16:00] I understand taking care of your own but you don't have to ignore everyone else like calous Narcissus. [00:16:07] So that's the end of my post that I had made. I just couldn't believe how they wouldn't even acknowledge that other people were impacted. There was literally no mention of those other people. It shows again how little they care about anyone that is outside their group. Here's some other random things that I've learned since being out. I came to realize that there is now no concept of grace in the Colts. They don't use the term grace. That's something that I heard for the first time outside of Jehovah's Witnesses Instead they use the term undeserved kindness so that you always know that you're not really worth anything. I also realize that they they use a lot of weasel words like the word evidently when about to make a point that requires a huge leap and has no real basis. They like to make leaps tobacco whatever ridiculous thing that they're about to posit. So they'll use a word a use word like evidently to get you to make that leap with them. On that. No. They often use the term present truth and the other does speak term present truth to let you know that you have to obey because whatever they're telling you is true but that truth is subject to change. [00:17:29] I learned that they are involved in all kinds of things that they would never allow their members to be a part of or even given the appearance of association with. The biggest example of this is the United Nations now. Jehovah's Witnesses are not even supposed to join the local YMCA because it is a Christian organization not affiliated with the cult and thereby it is false religion because remember they and they alone have the truth. But the colt which claims that the United Nations will eventually cause the nations to turn on and shut down religion and which they see as the scarlet colored wild beast in Revelation. They Jehovah's Witnesses actually became an associate an NGO or a non-governmental organization of the United Nations in 1992 the Guardian and the United Kingdom actually broke the news in October of 2001 that the Jehovah's Witnesses were a member of this organization that they claim to be the scarlet colored wild beast of Revelation. [00:18:38] And that very same month the cult withdrew and disassociated as an NGO member of the United Nations. They are hypocrites of the highest order. If you look up the company of Rand cam that's R.A. in the space s.a.m Aranda cam if you look at their SCC or Securities and Exchange Commission information as a traded company in the United States you'll see that the Watchtower holds a large stake Rand's cam makes engines and is involved in the defense industry the war machine something that Jehovah's Witnesses are opposed to. [00:19:16] Do they think do you think that they would have let you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses do anything that even sniffs such an industry of course not years ago Jehovah's Witnesses aligned themselves with the well-known televangelist Jimmy Swaggart and listing themselves as a quote friend of the court during his case regarding sales tax on books sold. You see Jehovah's Witnesses used to sell their books and magazines from door to door. We would go and we would sell them we would collect money for them. Well one day we got a notice from the top at one of our meetings that we were so blessed by Jehovah that we were going to start relying on him to make this organization go. [00:20:01] We would show our trust in him by going to a donation arrangement instead of charging for the literature we were given suggested donations and proof that Jehovah was backing us would be demonstrated as the organization would have an abundance materially under this new system of getting funding through voluntary donations instead of charging for our literature. [00:20:22] This was God ordained right. Well what they didn't tell us and what I found out later was that the government decided that selling books like this should be taxed and they didn't want to pay taxes. [00:20:34] So that is the real reason that the donation arrangement came about it wasn't blessing from Almighty God. It was prompting by the almighty dollar. In the end it is the members of the congregation that donate the money for the literature that they then go out and give away for free. Most of the time they jilted their members into funding all of it. Well-played colt. Well played another great play is this. It used to be that every congregation was its own entity and own its own property including the building the local brothers and sisters would donate money to the upkeep of the building. They donate money to pay the mortgage or eventually save money for a down payment on a new building if needed. Well the organization often funded those mortgages and the local congregations would get a loan for their Keenum hall that they would you know them be so proud of well Watchtower headquarters decided that they were going to be nice a few years ago. They sent out a letter only part of which was read to the creation and part of which was for the elders eyes only and which they forgave all the mortgages those congregations that had a loan with the organization we're now debt free. That's awesome right. [00:21:53] I mean really how can you mess that up. Well as with just about anything. Read the fine print. What they actually did was to forgive the loans to be sure but they had all of the properties turned over to them. They now owned everything including Keenum halls that were long since paid for. They scarfed up all the properties. [00:22:17] They also told the Koreans that since they were taking care of everything now there was no use in the individual congregations having much money in the bank. So they took everything over a certain amount of basic operating costs. There are creations that had tens of thousands of dollars saved up and earmarked for a new building and all that money was just taken to sweeten the deal for the cold even more. [00:22:42] They told the members that you know what since you've proven that you can pay X amount for your mortgage over these years you know whatever they had previously been paying for the mortgage you could just keep donating that amount through a pledge. And what they did is they handed out slips of paper for everyone to write down how much money they would commit to giving each month so that they knew that they would still be getting their money. In other words don't think you can relax and not keep donating just because you don't have a mortgage anymore. They weren't about to take that foot off the throat of their members. [00:23:15] This new arrangement is forever. So yeah you don't have a loan anymore but you have a commitment in perpetuity to pay at least the same amount. And oh yeah that's took all of your money out of the bank and they took your property too. Again well. [00:23:32] Well played in fact one of the things that Jehovah's Witness has always bragged about was that every month we would have this accounts report that was read from the platform. A brother would get up the account servant who took care of everything. And you know so how much money was donated he'd tell how much you know went to the electric bill the gas bill the water bill it's maintenance on the creation. And I mean you know to be honest to you know give them props for this. [00:23:59] They were very transparent on the local level and when they go to conventions they have a much less detailed accounts report that they go over. [00:24:11] But has anybody ever seen an accounts report for the entire organization. Has anybody ever seen where all of that money goes. Because all they would ever say at the local level is we had X amount that was donated to the quote worldwide work a catchall for the money that was given to the organization. [00:24:31] And you know this was beyond the money that was given to the local herniation. So there was a lot of transparency locally. [00:24:39] But all of the funds that went to Watchtower headquarters said he didn't know where all that money went. [00:24:46] But not until 1961. [00:24:51] Changing the subject. Jehovah's Witnesses could say blood transfusions without penalty. [00:24:57] There were brothers and sisters who you know got a blood transfusion that maybe even save their life. In 1961 it was made a disfellowshipping offense. Eventually as I stated in an earlier episode it was deemed to be an automatic disassociation so that they could put the entire blame on you for being out. [00:25:18] If you took a blood transfusion that saved your life instead of looking bad themselves for kicking you out for taking such a life saving measure over time they have now decided that certain blood fractions are OK to say how many died or were disfellowship during their changes in beliefs. And yet no apology was offered. [00:25:39] And if you are disfellowshipped for taking a fraction to save your life prior to their change in doctrine you would still remain disfellowshipped because ultimately the real problem is that you didn't submit to their wishy washy doctrine. I always wondered when they would start letting sex fractions be OK. There are a lot of witnesses who question that fun fact at one point Jehovah's Witnesses considered organ transplants to be cannibalism. [00:26:08] Here's some other fun facts. The cult was started by Charles Taze Russell. He was associated with the millwrights and the Seventh Day Adventists and he bought into their predictions of the end of the world with specific dates. He is rumored to have had involvement with the Knights Templar Freemasons. He used pyramid ology to try to predict things like 1914 using the dimensions of pyramids. Speaking of 1914 they arrive at that date for the beginning of the end of this system of things based on calculations starting from the fall of Jerusalem in 6 0 7 BCE only do a quick Google search and you'll see that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 6 so seven BCE 587 is the accepted date. For its fall for any exodus out there that haven't looked that one up yet. Take a look at that that dates 1914 that Jehovah's Witnesses hold so dear as the date that Jesus took his invisible reign in heaven. Just waiting to come and crush this this world or at least the non Jaida on it. That day was based on 6 0 7 BCE and then other speculative ridiculous calculations but six so seven BCE. Pretty much according to Jehovah's Witnesses they're the only ones who say that that's when Jerusalem fell. I mean it doesn't really take much research. Anyway back to Russell. Charles says Russell is buried in a cemetery adjacent to Masonic property and there's a large pyramid monument nearby his grave that Rutherford the second president of the call is rumored to have put their Russell was involved in something that was a scam a called Miracle Wheat as well. [00:28:00] At one point it was said that God lived on a star in the Pleiades constellation Jehovah's Witness has purchased two properties under the direction of Rutherford the second president one called Best Seram and one called Beth Shan. Both I believe were in San Diego. Best Seram meant the house of princes princes and these properties were supposedly purchased because they believed that the faithful men of old these princes like Abraham or Mose's they believed that these men would be resurrected to the earth and they wanted to have a nice place for them to stay. Yes I'm serious. It is well-documented. You see photos of the place. There was rumor that Beth Shan How's the bomb shelter some sort of bunker for the impending Armageddon. Most Jehovah's Witnesses don't know anything about these matters. I never did. Another thing they don't realize is that they are being played in the literature often the use of an ellipses. [00:29:05] Those few dots you'll see something said then dot dot dot and then some more things said. Usually when you see one of those ellipses those few dots indicating that part of something usually a quote we're left out there often hiding some very real lies and manipulation of quotes for instance Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that Jesus died on a cross. They believe it to be an upright stake like a pole. Here is a partial quote that the cult gives to support its position on this upright stake taken from the Imperial Bible Dictionary. Now first I'm going to read what Watchtower's says in their book. Reasoning from the Scriptures on the subject and then I'm going to read what the actual dictionary says. So here's what Watchtower's says that this book says the Greek word for cross rose properly signified a steak and upright pole or a piece of paling on which anything might be hung or which might be reused in impaling or fencing in a piece of ground. Dot dot dot dot. Even amongst the Romans the crux from which our cross is derived appears to have been originally an upright pole. All right so if you read this. Sounds like the Greek word for cross-bow star rose. It was a stake and so that would be used in impaling right. Even the Romans appeared to have used a cross that originated from an upright pole. All right. It's a pole. It's not a cross Well let's see what the quote actually says. [00:30:42] It says the Greek word for cross star rose properly signified a stake an upright pole or a piece of paling on which anything might be hung or which might be used in impaling or fencing in a piece of ground. Now here's the dot dot dot dot. The ellipses but a modification was introduced as the as the Dominion and usages of Rome extended themselves to Greek speaking countries even amongst the Romans. The crux from which the word crosses derived appears to have been originally an upright pole and always remained the more prominent part but from the time that it began to be used as an instrument of punishment a traverse piece of wood was commonly added. Not however always then there can be no doubt however that the later sort was more common. And that about the period of the Gospel age crucifixion was usually accomplished by suspending the criminal on a cross piece of wood. Honestly if you continue going through the dictionary there there are several places where it talks about the cross and how it was a cross. But the witnesses have manipulated the quotes to mean something else. [00:31:53] In fact I remember one time this isn't actually in my notes. I tried to find it but at one time there was an expert that they used. You know he was some scientist that they used to explain something. [00:32:11] I don't know about how you know things were really here by creation not by evolution. You know this former evolutionist or something. What they failed to mention was the person that they quoted was one of Jehovah's Witnesses who used to be a science as that's what it was. [00:32:28] And then when caught on it they took the entire part about that out. So you know they have no qualms in bending the truth and claiming to have the truth if they are changing the words of others to fit what they want they will do the same in their own publications. If you were to go look at their publications today the cult keeps them online for easy access part of that easy access that they can change things in their own written word without anyone noticing. In fact if you go look at what they allow people to see now they only allow you to go back to like the year 2000. Everything before then is gone as though it didn't happen. All the crazy things that they said are just gone. [00:33:18] In fact they often will try to get rid of older books and try to destroy them so that the average person can't come across them you see with all the books that they've produced over the years. [00:33:32] They were caught on a lot of things that they predicted and got wrong. For example the cult said over and over and in many ways that the world would end in 1975. There was even a saying stay alive till 75 people were encouraged to give up their worldly possessions and to spend more time preaching the message of salvation. Door to door because the time was near for Armageddon the biggest increases the organization ever had were during the years leading up to this. People sold off everything. They quit their jobs they quit basic education like high school and devoted everything to the cause. I'm guessing you realize that since we're still here they were wrong yet again. Let's look though at how they change the past through their written word. [00:34:22] There was a book released in 1968 around the time when they kind of started pushing the rhetoric about this 1975 thing and the book on page 88 paragraph 11 says during and after World War II widespread. Now I should say first sorry the title of this chapter. [00:34:46] This book is called the truth that leads to eternal life. The title of this chapter is God's Kingdom comes to power. OK. So supporting the when God's kingdom will come in. And of course God's Kingdom coming in means Armageddon the end of this current system of things subparagraph 11 says that during and after World War 2 widespread food shortages added to the distress. [00:35:09] Shortly after the war look magazine observed a fourth of the world is starving today. Tomorrow will be even worse. Famine over most of the world now is more terrible than most of us can imagine. [00:35:22] I wonder what it says there anyway. There are now more people hunting desperately for food than at any other time in history. More recently the book entitled famine in 1975 said concerning today's food shortages. Hunger is rampant throughout country after country continent after continent around the undeveloped belt of the tropics and subtropics. [00:35:45] Today's crisis can move in only one direction toward catastrophe. Today Hungary Nations tomorrow starving nations by 1975 civil disorder Anarky military dictatorships runaway inflation transportation breakdown and chaotic unrest will be the order of the day in many of the hungry nations. [00:36:08] So you see there they were already starting to point to 1975 is this time when all these bad things are going to happen right. Well and I think it was like 1980 they revised this book. So let's look at what it said after 1975 during and after World War 2. [00:36:31] Well I'll just skip the first part. Shortly after the war. [00:36:35] Look magazine observed and then it goes on about how the world is starving today. And to me it just goes. More recent reports have shown that a constant lack of adequate food resulting in chronic malnutrition has become the major world hunger problem today. [00:36:49] The London Times reported and then it just goes off into some you know random quote having nothing to do with 1975. [00:36:59] So the previous the original iteration there was a quote from a book entitled famine 1975. And in that book it actually pointed to 1975 as when chaos would ensue. So they will do anything they can to try to avoid admission of being wrong even changing their own written word. [00:37:21] And now they can do it with impunity because they can do it online on their own Web site where they control everything. [00:37:30] Now I initially they blamed the members of the organization for making up the whole 1975 thing on their own and they blame them for running with it when it was actually them the organization that mentioned it over and over suddenly putting it out there like the manipulative people that they are. Speaking of books through a crisis of conscience by Ray Franz the former Governing Body member I learned that beliefs and policies are actually voted on now. I mean he kind of makes some sense is not a huge revelation you know but let's play that out. That means that there are members of the governing body today that don't even believe their own teachings. If you or I believe something different and others found out it could be grounds for a ruling of apostasy and we could be disfellowshipped. [00:38:19] However those men are voting on things that impact people's lives their real everyday lives the decision not to allow the brothers and sisters in Malawi to purchase a party card because of their stand on political neutrality cost thousands their lives and they were brutally raped and mutilated and tortured because the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses would not allow the brothers and sisters in Malawi to purchase this party card. They said it would not be showing neutrality as it turns out. Malawi only had one party so they wouldn't have been taking sides. And this car costs very little it was like getting an ID and the brothers pleaded with Jehovah's Witness headquarters because the ruling made no sense. In the end a lot of people were slaughtered. Lives were ruined. People were tortured and Jehovah's Witnesses have a lot of blood on their hands. I came to realize that that whole field service work that we always did it's not to make converts. [00:39:26] It's to keep you the publisher going from door to door so that you stay in the colt. [00:39:33] You see human beings have a need for internal consistency we need our thoughts and our actions to align or or we'll start going a different path because they don't match up. But if they can get us to go knock on doors investing so much time and energy when they're teaching can't come up in our head that maybe it makes sense or or the cold asks us to do something ridiculous. We were more inclined to just brush it aside because we were investing so much into this. In fact the Jehovah's Witnesses and I looked this up. I forgot about it just now come to mind. But there's a quote in a recent magazine where essentially the governing body has written that there's going to likely come a time in the future when the governing body is going to ask Jehovah's Witnesses to do something that may not seem prudent or may not seem to be the smartest decision given the circumstances. But it's a matter of obedience and salvation to go ahead and follow that direction. [00:40:46] They they basically have set them up to tell their people anything they want and people can't question it. They're supposed to just go along with it. I mean how sick is that. Additionally there are a lot of people that leave the cold that end up going Buchwald. Why. [00:41:09] Well you might think it's because they've been pent up for so long in a restrictive call and you know you'd be at least partially right in some cases. [00:41:16] However if you think about it the cult tells people that those on the outside are basically having sex with anything that moves taking every drug getting drunk constantly just leaving and living the the life of every sort all the time so when a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses leave the Colts they think that's what's expected of them to fit in. They often go far wilder than anyone around them because they've been told that's how it is and they're just trying to fit in and they've been given a false vision of what that means. The hope is that yeah they'll go wild and ultimately they'll implode and come back to the Colts. So coming and going they've got you brainwashed. They then use those people on convention parts as examples of of the person that went out into the evil world and found that there was nothing good out there for them. Well it's a self-fulfilling prophecy inserted into the consciousness of members that is then played out when they leave. If you want to know what it's like to live in a cult I would encourage you to read the book 1984 by George Orwell. [00:42:29] I'm not going to spoil it for you but there are so many phrases that are used in daily life like Big Brother is watching those phrases come from this book. If you are an ex Jehovah's Witness you have to read this book. It is a very dystopian novel. [00:42:45] And honestly once I was done reading it I felt dirty like I needed a shower. [00:42:51] Realizing that it was largely the life that I had lived didn't quite help that feeling a whole lot. It's just gross. The manipulation of human beings all right now we're going to move on to Section 2. This is something that that people actually often ask me and that's all you know where are you now spiritually or you know what do you believe now. So I'm going to talk about where I am spiritually and how I got there. In fact if you think about it just the end of last episode when I came out I was seeing God's praises I even said that I was closer to Jehovah then than I'd ever been in my entire life. [00:43:34] I saw I thought I saw God's hand in so much of what was changing my life for the better. I thought I was being blessed and it blew my mind that I was doing things differently than what I had been told I needed to do in order to be blessed. The coach said that I could be blessed for things that I was doing that were now turning out in my favor as my life was changing dramatically for the better. [00:43:58] Jehovah's Witness who can quote quote scripture the scriptures as they've been shown and the narrative that has been woven through disparate verses is something that they're very good at. [00:44:08] However they don't know much about the book itself or at least I didn't and I know a lot more now than I ever did as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Just like with with the cold itself. I have gone deep on a lot of things after leaving. So after taking apart the cult that I pledged my allegiance to for so long I realized that my faith was all built upon the Bible which you know makes sense. [00:44:35] But the same thing that was true of my religious faith was true of this book that it was all founded upon. [00:44:42] I never really examined the book itself. And so I sat down and looked at it with fresh eyes. Now while I woke up in large part because of how the cult was so unloving and harsh and how it was mentally and emotionally unhealthy my wife if she was telling her own story right now she would tell you that it was actually the Bible itself that woke her up while I was diving deep into the side of things. [00:45:07] She was trying to double down on her Bible reading so that she could prove the truth to herself and God's word. We really approach things differently. But there's a saying that atheists are atheists because they've never read the Bible. They are atheists because they actually did. [00:45:24] Now this is where I'm going to relate a part of my journey that could be somewhat uncomfortable for some of you. It's not my goal to attack anyone's faith. [00:45:34] You have a right to feel or believe anything that you want to believe or look at the evidence however you want to look at it. [00:45:47] I'm going to keep this somewhat brief because my goal isn't just to tear down the beliefs your beliefs but this is a part of my journey. This is my story. This is real and I'm going to share it. This is this is the progression of everything for me. [00:46:02] For those of you who are out there that feel a need to save me through your faith I will respectfully tell you that although I appreciate where you're coming from and your intent because we've had many people since we left to have something else that they want us to get in I'm not really interested unless you can come to me with evidence. [00:46:20] You see I lived a faith based life for three decades and then it was actually different facts that started waking me up to things that I actually had faith in so it was now time for me to really take a look at this book and the facts of what it contained and the facts surrounding its composition. These were things I never really looked. [00:46:42] I just kind of accepted on faith that the Bible was true from day one. I mean that was a foundation that was something that was given to me. And I mean I never even had a chance to look at that. [00:46:55] So I'm going to be blunt. I'm going to be quick here and then we'll move on to my life after the cold and what my life afterward has been been like including some key events that happened there. [00:47:06] So these are the things that my faith in the Bible the way first of all in Genesis the plants are created before the light sources. That's bass ackwards God. That's kind of the wrong way. There is a literal talking snake but the creative days were supposed to be figurative. When Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden there was an angel placed to guard it with a flaming sword swords weren't even invented back then if you take Bible History is written if all of the scientific evidence is right and man has been here much longer than 5000 years. Then there was no Adam and Eve according to Bible chronology and thus no original sin and no real need for a redeemer. And the whole narrative falls apart. The Marians also had very similar stories before the Bible was written and the Bible is very similar to many of those because I was curious as to how I had always been told basically that the Bible was the original not necessarily the facts Noah's Ark. I mean come on. [00:48:15] There are too many species of animals to take them all and not only to but to you. But if you read on some were taken by sevens it depended on clean versus unclean. [00:48:25] Really they all fit on that ark. What about the dinosaurs. Where were they in any of this. How did all of the aquatic life not die. [00:48:36] Because if the waters really rose above the entire surface of the earth as stated then the mixing of salt and fresh waters would have killed everything in the sea and destroyed their habitat. [00:48:49] Afterward where did all that water go. So they had to go somewhere and the last time I checked I'm not living in Atlantis underwater. Why did God kill all of his creation that wouldn't fit on the ark. Isn't that cruel. Why are we supposed to respect his creation when he doesn't. Why is there no fossil record of kangaroos anywhere but Australia to know a swing by there and drop them off at some point. [00:49:14] Or how did they get there. [00:49:17] Another thing that woke me was that Scripture were 40 something kids make fun of a Lycia was saying go up you baldhead. [00:49:24] And then God sends two she bears out of the woods to tear the kids to pieces. Really God really was that really necessary it let's face it. The old testament god wasn't very kind. He ordered his people to dash the children of a conquered nation on the rocks they would conquer and take the virgins as their own. I'm pretty sure they weren't taking them just because they wanted to give them a better life. Women were concubines and those with God's favor that led his nation. Lot of the Kings had lots of concubines violence. Massage any infanticide all at God's direction. It has been pointed out that God kills way more people in the Bible and say it never did. [00:50:11] The Messiah was supposed to come through the line of David. Joseph was indeed in that line but Mary wasn't and apparently old Joseph had no hand in the matter as far as the pregnancy with wit and for that matter Mary was a virgin. So how was Jesus through that lineage. I mean if it was so important and would prove that he was the Messiah shouldn't God make sure that Joseph was involved in some way if you know what I mean. I mean like that's one of the main prophecies. [00:50:41] How can it not be straightforward. Read the accounts of the resurrection of Jesus in Matthew 28 1 through 10 and open another Bible and read the account of the resurrection of Jesus and John 20 1 through 18. [00:50:59] Read those two accounts together side by side and compare them. They aren't quite the same. There are scriptures in the Bible with clear direction on everything from not mixing certain materials and fabric to how long a woman was ceremonially unclean with the flow of blood to warnings against beast reality in very specific language. Yet I've never found any scriptures specifically protecting children the most vulnerable human beings against sexual abuse and this kind of hit me one day and it kind of seems like a big oversight there God. I mean where is it. [00:51:40] You point to a scripture about fornication or something like that. But I mean if that's the case and it's just about how not having sex with some one you're not married to the while the Scriptures on reality. I don't think you're married to your dog or whatever. [00:51:54] Where are the verses to specifically condemn child sexual abuse when so much else is spoken about. [00:52:09] The Bible was voted on to see what books would be included. It was written by men and the accounts of Jesus were written well after the fact Mark was written first and the original copies did not contain mentions of the virgin birth or anyone seeing Jesus after his death. Though it appears the latter was added and some translations later it is as though other things were added by later writers to make the story more appealing. Romans Chapter 9 talks of God as a potter and starting at verse 20 it says. But who are you O man to be answering back to God. Does the thing molded say to it's older. Why did you make me this way. What does not the potter have authority over that collates to make from the same Lumpe one vessel for an honorable use another for a dishonorable use. Just think about those words. It kind of sounds a lot like that whole free will thing. Was it quite so free. If you can't you know God can make you this person a vessel for honorable use this one for dishonorable use. How is that fair. And then you know another thing that always caught me was the book of Revelation. [00:53:25] But that doesn't mean all the book of Revelation I mean come on. If our salvation is Shearman's hangs in the balance of understanding the Bible. Why put such insane riddles in it. God has been described as a loving father. The superlative example and the bible is supposed to be his love letter to us. If that's the case then why couldn't he make it more clear. Shouldn't any good father understand what his kids need in order to understand something. Shouldn't he know our abilities and limitations as humans if he created us. [00:53:58] And what good father gives his book gives his kids a book of riddles and then if they can't figure it out to his liking destroys them. [00:54:09] The final thing that I'll say is there's a lot of circular logic used when discussing the Bible like well we know the Bible is true. Just read this scripture here at well that's not a basis for belief. You can't use the bible to prove the Bible that that's that's bad logic is circular logic. That doesn't mean it's true just because it says it is. So where am I now own I guess pretty much my wife too though I guess I got let her speak for herself. As far as myself I simply can't have faith in the Bible or the God of it. I just can't. Now does that mean there is no God. Well not necessarily though. It absolutely could mean that there is no God. And you know at this point I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of it. But you know I don't claim to know everything anymore. See I I spent my entire life thinking I had the truth about my entire life thinking that I didn't know at all that I didn't know that there was a God that this book was his word too was. But as I've gotten to examine those things with fresh eyes it just doesn't add up. Now there might be a God that loves us and wants to offer us everything we've ever dreamed of on this earth or maybe in heaven or some other planet. I don't know. Maybe I can believe in possibilities. I can believe that I don't know everything and maybe there is something else there also might be a god that just walked away and is indifferent. [00:55:47] Or there could be a god that's malevolent and hates us and wants bad things for us. We look around there's a lot of bad stuff that goes on. You know it's always funny. Always look that you know what I called creation for evidence of this loving god. You know I would talk about the beauty of creation. It shows there must be this god of love. [00:56:08] But what I never bothered to look at was the absolute cruelty of the animal kingdom and the parasites and diseases the critters that get an utter critters and eat them from the inside out that are just as much a part of that creation. [00:56:25] There's there's a yin and yang to a lot of life. There's there's you know these different extremes. [00:56:34] Now at this point I guess I'd have to say that I'm basically an atheist. Some might call it an agnostic atheist I mean I'm open to possibilities and I'm open if there is a god out there and you can open my eyes and I can have some evidence not faith. Not just the faith that I have my entire life where I have to make leaps. But if he if I could find any easy evidence that there is truly this god I'm open to that. But there just has to be more proof for me to ever put my belief in something again. [00:57:16] I just can't do it. [00:57:18] Now you might say. But what about all those blessings that you just said. You know in the last episode you said you experienced all those blessings firsthand while you were exiting the coal the van that was running the you know the things that happened as you made yourself available to get more work and all that. [00:57:35] Well here's what I'll say. I learned better things I did better things and better things happened in my life. It would be just like if I played a game of basketball but didn't know how to play the game would be pretty ugly for me wouldn't it. But if I concentrated on my handles I'd learned how to dribble. Then I worked on my form I learned how to shoot if I figured out how to position my body on defense so as to limit the mobility of the player in front of me. I'd have a much easier time on the court. Now God didn't help me I help to me. I finally reached out for better tools. I worked on my life. I did better things and therefore I got better results. Just like if I worked out or anything else if God was helping me and I have left God and basically become an atheist why hasn't my life spiraled again. It hasn't because it wasn't God in the first place or at least that's my take on it. You're you know you're welcome to have your own. And I can appreciate that now. We don't all have to think of field together. I'm no longer the same. I'm no longer in a Colts so we can have those differences and that's fine. We're part of the beauty of this world is that we don't all have to be the same and we aren't all the same. In fact I now appreciate the beauty of each day. I still appreciate the life around me. [00:59:06] In fact I can look at my life today as the miracle that I was waiting for my whole life to happen to me at some point in the future after death or when the world ended or whatever. I'm so much more in tune with life now around me. I realize it just for me to be here today doing this podcast there was such a statistically improbable scenario that the sperm and egg that made that happen made it happen that time. Just the fact that I survived two full term birth that I was born without complications that nothing catastrophic happened in my childhood that I learned to drive and drove like an idiot as a teenager without disaster that I didn't take my own life in my darkest moments and that I made it out of a cult. I am in heaven now. I mean I'm not really you know I don't believe in a heaven but so to speak. I'm in heaven now I've experienced hell. I made it out. I'm not going to spend my time now dedicated to things that have no real proof attached to them. I can't. Now that doesn't mean that I don't marvel at the complexity of everything. I was listening to a podcast or something. I believe it was Adams but it was said that scientists could put an atom in one room and another atom in another room. They can stimulate the one add them to vibrate at a certain frequency and the other one in the other isolated room were spawned by very vibrating at the same frequency. That is amazing stuff there. I can still marvel at things bigger than me. [01:00:50] Like the universe and I don't claim to know everything but a lack of answers doesn't mean that the answer is God. [01:01:00] I live a beautiful life now. [01:01:02] Now speaking of that let's go ahead now. We're going to go to section three and I'm going to talk about my life after the colt. All right. So when we first left the coke it was like my wife and I were aliens being dropped in this planet and we had to figure out a lot of things we are still doing that at times. For instance someone gave me a birthday card and a present the other day because this Saturday August 12th I turned 40 years old and it was so cool and unexpected. I thanked the person personally while I was there very sincerely Oh am I supposed to send a thank you card as well. I don't know. I don't know if you bring presents to a birthday party for an adult. I mean people did to ours but like or from our wives. But it was you know her for her first birthday. I've heard different things. There are so many things that we have to figure out. We decided this year to celebrate the Fourth of July here. You know here in America I don't know where everybody is listening from. And we want work walked into a a large fireworks superstore and we had absolutely no clue what anything was in that store other than sparklies those labels might as well been in a foreign language to us. We didn't know what a jumping this was or a fountain or whatever it was we had no clue. [01:02:24] Though you know we experimented and we know a few things now but there are so many things that I think other people take for granted that we just don't know. I can still remember going to our first cocktail party. [01:02:37] I didn't know how we should dress or what we should expect to do. We don't drink so I didn't know what. [01:02:45] You know how we were going to fit in but we ended up having a great sob. We've had to do so many new things and it's scary. Like when you go just to do you know do anything for the first time. But as we do more and more new things and they continue to work out we've had greater comfort as we've done other new things. I want to say this what we called worldly people those people outside of the call there are nothing like what we were told. I just want to take this moment right now to thank all of the beautiful people that have helped us that have been on this journey with us not just watching but actually taking an active interest in helping us. Thank you so much. We have the best friends and you know we would call many people family. [01:03:36] We disassociated from the call in September of 2015 and that November we celebrated our first Thanksgiving one amazing family that we work with invited us to their Thanksgiving to be a part of their family. And that was huge for us. In fact we now have two families that we visit on Thanksgiving that we've been adopted by. I can't tell you what that means when you've lost everyone that meant anything to you. [01:04:02] We've had people take us on trips like pay for our meals and drive us to places and share their lives with us. These were people that we cleaned for just another amazing worldly family. [01:04:17] You know I hate that term but I'm using it just to show the contrast. [01:04:22] We've also reconnected with extra witnesses that we knew back in the day. [01:04:26] And it's so great to have those links to our past as everything was stolen from us by the Kalt other groups of friends that you know maybe weren't people we cleaned for links to our past as Jehovah's Witnesses have become friends too. It's really cool to look at our friends list and see people that we made friends with that we didn't already have some sort of connection to now with that said among others there is a struggle that my wife and I both face and it seems to hurt my wife the most. [01:05:00] And that is that we just don't have roots anymore those people like your family that you know that you could just go talk to and reminisce about the past with just relax with be transported back in time for my wife and I. [01:05:15] There is no back in time. Well I guess this podcast is a version of back in and I'm sharing it with you but I can't share it with the people who were there. They're all gone. [01:05:27] There's like this it's like the foundation to our lives that just disappeared one day. It's like waking up one day and everyone you knew was killed in a car accident only They're still actually out there. But they're unwilling to even say hi to you. Imagine that all of your friends from high school or college and your family was gone tomorrow who would be your friends. [01:05:51] Who would you talk to who would you go for who would you go to for things. It's so strange and it's it's hard to convey what that feels like. Unfortunately because we had a family in the coal it will always be a part of us if nothing else. I once heard that leaving a coal and de-programming. It's kind of like if you have an image on your computer and you delete it well you may have deleted it or sent it to the trash bin or whatever but it isn't really gone. It's somewhere in the background and on your hard drive and new data is written over it bit by bit little by little but it's still there and it's retrievable. If you have the right software the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses will always be a part of us. It will always be with us. [01:06:44] We're linked through family that is still in. And you can't have your formative years co-opted by a cult without certain neural pathways being built in and emotional pathways. [01:06:56] The one major struggle for me since being out is the thought of death. Honestly a lot of times before I go to bed at night when my my mind is quiet I think about dying. [01:07:13] It's not the thought of being dead that is the big deal or at least the way I see it. I think it was like a man I'm blanking on who wrote it Tom Sawyer or something. We've all been dead already before we were ever born. So I like that thought but the thought of there being an end to all of this that I might not wake up tomorrow at some point. That's that's pretty hard to swallow. Realizing that I wasted so much time probably half my life in a cold. You know assuming my life continues to go well physically you know the fact that I wasted so much time in a hole with time being you know the real precious commodity of life that's pretty hard to swallow. The fear that we had when we were Jehovah's Witnesses It was never of a fiery hell. The fear we actually had was of dying and just being dead forever. That was the punishment. Either you become a good Jehovah's Witness and live forever on this paradise earth or you die forever and there is nothing else which was always a terrifying thought to me. And honestly now I know that the only evidence there is out there is that's what it is. One day I'll die I'll be worm food and that's it. There's there's no do overs there's no to be continued. There's there's nothing there still you know these feelings while real they're not enough for me to reach out. [01:08:52] You know for faith in something that you know just to me feels unsubstantiated just to make myself feel better or give myself some sort of prospects for the future. The Buddhists actually teach impermanence from the start. And [01:09:07] I was actually taught the complete opposite I was taught absolute permanence that I wouldn't ever have to die that I will walk right into a paradise earth where I could live forever and I was taught this since I was a child. I wish I had been taught impermanence it would have would have been so much more healthy for where I am today. It's so hard to shake that fear of nothingness when that was always the fear that I had above all others and now I'm about to turn the big 4 0 this weekend something that I never really ascribed a lot to because age didn't mean anything to us. We didn't even celebrate birthdays so we didn't even pay that much attention. [01:09:49] And you know now I realize that yeah I'm about to be 40 and you know if I if I can stay healthy you know maybe I make it to 80 or so. [01:10:02] You know that would be cool. So at least I've got to have a life to do it over. But it's still just a tough thing to to face it's like for the first time I'm facing my mortality. It's like I left the call and I found out I was going to die. You know I mean how would you feel if you found out you were going to die in X amount of time. Well that's that's kind of what I found out which seems so odd. I'm sure that the average normal person out there. But when you've been taught your whole life something else it is tough to contend with still. [01:10:39] You know despite all that you know we do have struggles from it but our lives are beautiful. We've heard so many beautiful lessons. My wife and I still work together we still clean for amazing human beings every day. We try to start out every day in the van by doing two things. First we discuss where we are that day you know kind of like what our moods like what side of the bed we woke up on how we're feeling. Things like that so that we know where each other is coming from for the day. [01:11:08] It kind of helps to head off misunderstandings when you work together every day. [01:11:12] And you know you're married to after that we do our Happy's what we do is you know in our happiness we just go back and forth trying to name things that we're happy for. Whether it's you know big or general things like you know I'm happy we're out of a cold to small things like I'm glad I can fill up my gas tank now and not have to look at the amount of worry that I can't pay it. Or it might be something you know just around us like man I'm so glad the sun is out this morning or or we're going over the river to work and there's a fog over the river just trying to be present and appreciate life around us in that moment. It's a really great way to start the day. Now people were there to support me in April of 2016. [01:12:04] That was a rough little rough patch for me after we we'd gotten out of the call just seven months after we left it. [01:12:11] I got a call from my mom that my dad was in hospice care. I was cleaning a house and I mean the phone rang. I was shocked to hear from her in the first place. In fact not 100 percent sure I knew it was her. But nobody ever calls me. [01:12:26] So I just let it go to voicemail. Figured it was just a telemarketer. But she left a message and told me that I was able to come up if I wanted to to see my dad one last time. I have to admit that that was a very difficult decision by that point I'd been officially shunned for seven months. [01:12:48] But unofficially I've been Shaun for I don't know probably about a year or so. My wife called my mom to get the details. My head spun with the possibilities. [01:12:58] And what I should do. I appreciate the opportunity. There are many ex Jehovah's Witnesses that never even get that. Some actual witnesses actually find out after the fact that a parent is that often you know from someone else because that's how cruel the cult is. But I really wasn't sure what to do with this opportunity. I really thought about it a lot. And in the end I decided that you know this is a new path I was on was one of being authentic. So I decided to be me. I didn't want to let external things like the Colts or whatever dictate my reaction or my family than what I wanted to react to in a way that was just purely me. So I decided to go. [01:13:50] I wanted to be a good person. I wanted to show love where it hadn't been shown to me. I wanted to end on a better note than that horrible conversation where my dad yelled at me for defending the gays. [01:14:03] So my wife and I went to a hospice and there were some Jehovah's Witnesses there already. Mom had told us on the phone that they had said that they wouldn't be there if we were there. [01:14:16] What a horrible thing to do to leave like that. So we arrived on the floor. My dad was on and my mom kind of seemed to try to get my wife and I to go around the corner from the elevator to talk you know the one elevator everybody goes up and down. Well I didn't quite move where she wanted me to and there I saw a brother and sister leaving down the elevator away from my dad. [01:14:41] These people that w

This episode is heavier than the first two as I delve into the personal life at home in my family of Jehovah's Witnesses.  You will learn some of what really went on, as opposed to the appearances that were always kept up, as that is what Jehovah's Witnesses often tend to focus on. Direct Download Here [expand title="Click Here To Show Transcript"] All right so now let's go and talk about home life not the bugs and such that I mentioned were a problem for me when we first moved but the actual dynamics of our house I'm going to say now that I'm going to try to keep this story as close to the whole Jehovah's Witness narrative as possible. My family was dysfunctional as can be. But I'm going to do what I can to stick to the witness story here not the personal one though obviously they're intertwined. Some parts are going to be necessary to the story and I'll get into those. But out of respect for my family I'll leave a lot of things out that aren't necessarily pertinent to the subject at hand for some reason I still have respect for them even though they're shun me and act like I no longer exist. My goal is to be better than that. As a loving human being something that I've actually been able to become since I left the call.   [00:02:45] So let's get to it. I already mentioned that holidays went away. And I believe that last Christmas that I refer to previously was truly my last holiday period. That was it. What the absence of holidays that meant that we no longer saw our extended family much if you think about it. That's actually when everyone usually gets together. I didn't see many of them for decades. In the end they weren't Jehovah's Witnesses and were therefore not really the best Association anyway we could do better. Doesn't that sound horrible. But that's actually how you kind of start to feel the US versus them attitude is a race to the bottom and someone starts being seen as almost inhuman in order to justify the behavior. Us versus Them or paranoia about them being against us is the hallmark of any good cult though. As I stated before I was told that my parents no longer needed an excuse to get me gifts and that I could get them any time not just on specific dates so we didn't need holidays anymore. Well I'll let you guess how many presents I got after that. Even birthdays went away. No celebrations no presents nothing. Speaking of presents let's talk about toys. Things like my GI Joes having guns or weapons on other toys suddenly became an issue. Even water guns are a thing that many Jehovah's Witnesses never have. Toys also aren't supposed to be anything that they might deem spiritist like wizards or sorcerers or ghosts or anything like that. Entertainment suddenly became a big deal as well Joe.   [00:04:33] Witnesses aren't supposed to watch anything that might even suggest sexuality violence or obscene language. So you learn to really watch what music you listen to the lyrics and to judge for yourself that liking that song with the great music and lyrics because one line says something that quote Jehovah or God in their eyes won't approve of you start to judge yourself for for what you're drawn to. I remember one talk at the Kingdom Hall about how we should consider that if we wouldn't listen to or watch whatever entertainment it is if Jesus was in the room then we really shouldn't be entertained by it period. This applies to any entertainment videogames as well. We did have games throughout the years but they were usually just sports games for the most part and games like Mario. Things that are fairly innocuous though I guess. Actually if you've got deep enough into the Mario game I'm sure you can find something wrong with it. I borrowed a game that had I had to give back at one time because it was too violent and it was very mild but I don't know maybe you had like an army scene or something like that. We're talking eight in Tendo here so it couldn't have been very graphic or gory. My parents also decided that country music was the only acceptable music they deemed it clean enough to listen to now myself. I love pop and rap music before then leaning toward rap. That's something I always enjoyed.   [00:06:10] But that that went away. My parents would no longer let me listen to that. After that it was it was all of my achy breaky heart. So I remember one time my grandparents actually I don't know exactly how old I was but the same mid-teens I remember.   [00:06:31] For some reason they had bought me a Walkman or we went out shopping and I bought a Walkman and they paid for it.   [00:06:42] But I remember that my mom and dad when I got home and they found out that I had a Walkman. They made me take it back because they quote couldn't know what I was listening to. So again we go back to that level of control over your children. I think it was that last spring that I was talking about on the last episode that needs to be crushed. I had to be controlled. And so even what I listened to in private had to be controlled if at all possible. Again we had to watch anything that could be seen as spirit cystic as well. Like I think Scooby-Doo even though I think it was obviously just someone in a ghost costume that was usually the culprit but things like Scooby Doo with ghosts in it are more notably things like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.   [00:07:40] That stuff was seen as being linked with demons so it was out you really weren't supposed to watch those things. In fact there were entire articles in the Watchtower publications devoted to things like that.   [00:07:55] So let's talk about demons real quick. Jehovah's Witnesses were often afraid of buying things at yard sales because they might be demon possessed. You know maybe the person who owns that piece of furniture or whatever.   [00:08:10] I also had a Ouija board and they they practice that.   [00:08:13] And so they invited demons into their house and in demons inhabited this piece of furniture there was actually this is going to sound farfetched but there was actually a story that circulated through many congregations about a smurf doll you see Smurfs weren't really something we were supposed to be watching anyway. I guess I don't remember the narrative of that story. I watched Smurfs when I was little but I guess somehow it was seen as spiritist But regardless the legend was that a child brought a smurf doll purchased at a yard sale to the Kingdom Hall or the witnesses church and this poor kid was about to have to sit through two hours of an indoctrination session aimed at adults. But he brought this also. He could have his little toy as the legend has it the Smurf doll supposedly jumped out of his hands ran up the aisle and out of the Kingdom Hall. Yes. This was actually circulated. And yes grown human adults actually take this seriously and perpetuated the myth. Our next door neighbors the Jehovah's Witnesses claimed to have a chair. I think it was a chair that they thought had demons. I remember that once as an adult. My wife and I went to eat dinner with friends an older couple from our congregation.   [00:09:45] We were in our thirties.   [00:09:48] They were in their let's say 50s.   [00:09:53] It was Father's Day it just happened to be Father's Day when we went out to eat and that kind of caused an issue because people were come home the waiters would come by our table and they thought maybe the husband of this other couple was one of either my father or my wife's father.   [00:10:12] And so you know of course we can't celebrate Father's Day so there was a little trepidation over all that but this particular restaurant had hired a magician and this magician came by our table and he joked around with this little bit and then he.   [00:10:31] He wanted to tell our fortune and he threw down something on the table called Between my wife and I think we've determined it was called a fortune fish. I couldn't honestly tell you what it really was at this point. It might as well have been a live rattlesnake because the couple that we were with Again grown people in their 50s would not touch this fortune fish. It was some sort of little piece of paper or a toy or something. And so my wife seeing that they were completely freaked out. Quickly I reached over grabbed the fortune fish and cooler heads prevailed. But you would have literally thought that they threw a live snake on the table because they were absolutely petrified of this. In fact I remember there was a big thing among Jehovah's Witnesses if you go to a Chinese restaurant will you eat the fortune cookie or not because that's a pretty big deal there. If you read that fortune so demons were a huge scare for us as Jehovah's Witnesses. But think about it as kids we were having this stuffed drum this stuff drummed into our psyches. My parents were studying one of the publications with a family they had met while knocking doors and the family was telling us all kinds of things about how they thought they had demons. And I remember as a kid sitting in their living room while my parents would study with this couple strangers and I would think I saw stuff move in the house obviously it was just confirmation bias.   [00:12:08] I'm sure the heating and air conditioning system kicked on some air was blown in the house and some leaves moved on a plant or something and I'm sure I thought that was demans because that's what I had been told. I'll get into more teachings as such in the next sections about my life actually at the kingdom hall meetings as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. But it was applicable to this part of life at home and how things changed. Everything is kind of so intertwined that it's hard to separate these different issues fully in these episodes. Back to our family. Our parents had to start studying the Bible with us each week. Well not the Bible necessarily but one of Jehovah's Witnesses publications and they were supposed to study with us weekly.   [00:12:56] But in the end it ended up being pretty sporadic. My dad as the husband was to take the lead in this our studies were excruciating. My mom never knew when it was her turn to read a paragraph out of whatever book or magazine it was what we were studying. Then my dad would get upset with or we kids would answer questions to show that we were learning to the best of whatever ability we had. My mom was very emotional and she was really into this information. My dad was an emotional desert and he pretty much just seemed like he wanted to get it over with and do his duty as a Jehovah's Witness father. If everyone wasn't pissed off by the end of this study or someone hadn't cried chances are we weren't doing it right. It was absolutely miserable. When I got older my dad liked to wait until I was about to go out and do something with my friends.   [00:13:51] And then he announced that now it was time for us to sit down as a family and have our family study. I hated it. And honestly by that time I hated him. My dad was a very emotionally abusive man.   [00:14:09] I remember being told once that his own mother told my mom before they got married that quote that boy has never loved anything or anyone. And you think he loves you. Now he never hit us or anything. He was just an absolutely miserable man that made everyone else absolutely miserable in his house. However he was a totally different person at home that he was in public and especially at the meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses. He would be happy and everyone at the Kingdom Hall loved him. They thought he was great. He was a great Jehovah's Witness. He moved up through the ranks he became an elder in the congregation. Again one taking the lead. The only problem is that one taking the lead was supposed to quote and then this is according to Scripture the Scriptures that they use as qualifications for those taking the lead as elders. He should have been presiding over his household in a fine manner Well I'll tell you. My dad never fit that description. He treated us like garbage. Then he would be assigned a public talk. The 45 minute discourses that are given on Sundays for the public and of course. Well primarily the witnesses at the Keenum hall he will be given a talk to give and an outline on how to have a happy family life then he would get up and he would give his talk about how wonderful family was while of course we kids. We sat in the audience and rolled her eyes. My mom It got so bad at times she would have to get up and physically leave the auditorium.   [00:15:51] It was easy to see that even as a kid Jehovah's Witnesses valued performance and appearance over substance one of the first memories I have as a Jehovah's Witness is that we were up on stage at a big assembly in front of thousands.   [00:16:08] And when I say we I mean myself I know I had at least one younger brother at that point maybe two.   [00:16:17] In the end there were three of us brothers. I was the eldest had two younger than me and also had a sister who had it up to 20 years younger than me.   [00:16:28] But anyway here we were our perfect little Jehovah's Witness family in front of thousands at this assembly and we were giving a well-rehearsed demonstration of how our family was a great example of a young Jehovah's Witness family. We were sitting there with some brother who was interviewing us or performing an example of how a family study should be handled.   [00:16:59] And of course it was all a farce. I was a kid. I don't know how old I was but even then I knew it was just an act. My mom would get upset about my dad and she would go to the congregation elders about him. That's something that you need to know about Jehovah's Witnesses so the elders in the congregation are essentially they've been set up as who you are to go to with any of your problems. So if you have marital problems you go to the elders. If your child has told you that someone in the congregation molested them you go to the elders not the police. You go to the elders.   [00:17:42] Everything is funneled through the congregation first and that is seen. I mean that's just so indicative of the cult mentality that they had. So in this case my parents are having issues between them. My mom would get so upset about my dad she would go to the corrugation elders about him. She was hoping that they would either help him or at least take action to remove him as an elder which they had the power to do.   [00:18:13] However my dad did anything the elder elders wanted him to do. You know if there were little jobs to be done around the corrugation or a talk to do at the last second or anything my dad could not say the word no to them. In fact he once told me that if I was ever asked to do anything I should just say yes without even thinking about it because I should want to show that I wanted to serve Jehovah.   [00:18:41] Of course this wasn't really about serving Jehovah or the name for God as Jehovah's Witnesses teach. This was about serving the organization serving the elders serving the congregation.   [00:18:57] It is really a lot of it was just petty work. It was a lot of it was busy work.   [00:19:04] So think about that just just think about what it tells a kid to watch his parents completely submit to this organization and to be taught explicitly that your needs don't matter your desires don't matter whatever you are asked to do. That is what you need to do.   [00:19:31] It's something I still struggle with today giving weight to my own needs and wants in life.   [00:19:40] So my mom is talking to the elders about my dad. And guess what they want to talk to me. They weren't going to just take my mom's word for it. They need a corroboration of some of the stories she told. Well I told them all kinds of things. They didn't care. They didn't care for years when I was in my late teens maybe 18.   [00:20:02] They finally removed him as an elder in the congregation. I don't know why but they did. Nothing seemed to have changed. Maybe there was something that happened that they couldn't overlook anymore and had to take action. I don't know really what forced their hand there. I was never aware of anything though. In the end it was all a farce because he was removed as an elder. And then within X amount of time I don't know how long exactly but give it a year or two.   [00:20:31] He was an elder again.   [00:20:36] So this being caught in between an emotionally abusive father and my mom not to mention my own relationship with each of them was extremely stressful. We were a part of an organization that claims to have the happiest families on earth because they all know the quote truth from the Bible. But we were not happy. And frankly neither were most of the other families that we knew. There is so much drama in those congregations. Most are just completely unaware of it. Now I did have some friends at the Kingdom Hall.   [00:21:13] I couldn't have any school of course but I was lucky to have other young people in my congregation.   [00:21:21] My wife on the other hand grew up in a congregation without any other young people other than her four sisters four younger sisters and she never really had any friends to speak of. Well there was one girl but that girl moved in and was only her friend for a couple of years before ditching her.   [00:21:38] I on the other hand had a good group of guys.   [00:21:41] Notice though that I said guys you see boys and girls if they were to get together then they're going to fornicate. I mean sex is immanence. Something that has to happen if a male and female are in the same room. So there are really no reasons no good reasons for people of the opposite sex to be friends. It just really wasn't ok in my corrugation and it was a feeling through most of them though very varying levels of the extreme. I was probably in my late teens before I even spoke to a girl at our Kingdom Hall and it was just to give her some books or magazines or something that you know some job that I had in the congregation.   [00:22:25] They really kept us apart.   [00:22:29] I was lucky enough to have a great friend who lived right next door. You see the Jehovah's Witnesses that introduced us to the call that a son my age we did just about everything together and we would you know play toys out in the backyard.   [00:22:42] We played basketball. We'd make games we'd when we when I got older I drove I had a car. We go places together. We did all kinds of things together it was awesome. I'm glad that I had him. Or it would have been so lonely although I had other friends at the Kingdom Hall Like I said I did have a group of guys. It isn't like we could just get together all the time. Having a friend next door was awesome.   [00:23:10] It thinking back I remember that my grandfather bought us a basketball go. I loved basketball. I would have played all day everyday if I could.   [00:23:22] But I remember that the goal that he bought us was sitting in a box for a long time at our house. I think it sat for so long the box was getting torn out probably from us kids just playing around or maybe wondering what's inside that box.   [00:23:38] I would ask my dad to put it up. And of course he never would.   [00:23:43] So I remember one time a neighbor across the alley put up a hoop on the garage in the alley so I wasn't even in their yard.   [00:23:50] It was in the alley. Some kids were playing on it and I wanted to play so bad. I remember going in. I asked my parents you know can I go out there and play ball with them. I was told no I can't remember crying and being devastated. I wanted to play basketball. I didn't care that those other kids weren't witnesses. I just wanted to play but that's all the cult cares about. If you weren't one of us we simply couldn't associate with you without absolute necessity.   [00:24:21] Sure. Now we could come to your door and preach to you. But really that's all any of you were there for. We had a name for you. Yeah you. Whoever's listening to this you were called worldly people. Now in the real world worldly is a term that is that is looked upon with some measure of admiration. You know a worldly person is a person who maybe is well-traveled has great perspective on life has learned a lot of things are done a lot of things worldly people for Jehovah's Witnesses or people of the world people outside of our little group Jesus had said in the Bible to be no part of the world. And that's what we were trying to do. We were no part of you so you couldn't be any part of us. So a kid might not be able to play basketball with your kid depending on how strict His parents were interpreting such things. Most would at a minimum most are going to stay away as much as possible.   [00:25:31] Now although I had friends you have to know something about Jehovah's Witnesses you see people often think that we must have had a great community as witnesses. I mean especially you've got that whole US versus them mentality. So US must have been awesome us must have been so close.   [00:25:48] We called each other brother sister so it must have been like a family. Well no we weren't. Because remember this is a performance based cult. People were constantly trying to one up another. I've actually heard a term called Jesus juking that somebody mentioned in another religion once just trying to outmaneuver the next person to look better. You have to think this is a world where everyone is pretty much being forced to be the same. So how do you feel special. Well you feel special by maybe getting to know someone with a position in the congregation or maybe attaining that position yourself maybe you put in more hours and knocking on doors than somebody else or you have more Bible studies or you give better talks or you comment more at the meetings. Just any little thing that could be done in Jaida life if you could do it just a little better a little more maybe you commented at the meetings in your own words instead of reading it from a paragraph. And so you showed that that you know you really believed you know just little things like that to try to one up one another.   [00:27:08] There are also a lot of big families in the cold and different areas. And those families tend to gain prominence and Jehovah's Witnesses are known for being very cliquey.   [00:27:18] There are a lot of cliques in the corrugations there's always an in crowd and then everybody else is picking up the crumbs trying to fit in the cool club.   [00:27:28] The flipside of that is that everyone is watching everyone else you see there is necessity laid upon the brothers and sisters to quote keep the congregation clean.   [00:27:41] So we can't have any bad influences in the congregation so friends might turn in friends to the elders if they listen to a bad song or maybe if I saw you coming out of a movie theater where some rated R movie was playing well it's not just I'm supposed to keep the corrugation clean but they use different scriptures to essentially say that if I don't tell on you that I am a sharer in your wicked deeds. So you know I don't want God to be mad at me. And I want to keep the congregation clean. So yeah I'm going to go tell the elders that I saw you doing this thing. And yeah I did it. Of I think everybody did at some point it's just what you do and especially if you're trying to be a good many people actually feel so much shame over things that you will wait for somebody else to turn them so turn them in they turn themselves in. And now we're not talking about kids here we're talking about grown people going to corrugation elders and telling them what we did and when we're not talking about a confessional where you're sitting in a booth or maybe you don't see somebody you don't know who's on the other side or whatever. We're talking face to face. I did this. If you don't want to be punished for whatever it is you have to show repentance. You have to show that you're sorry and that you won't do it again.   [00:29:12] And of course that gives those men those elders tremendous power because they get to determine whether you're sorry or not as if there's any way they could actually tell you are at their mercy. So just let that sink in for a minute. Think about the indoctrination it takes and how powerful it is to make grown people go grovel because they watched a movie they shouldn't have watched or had. There were people I knew a young brother who had he had a quote problem with porn. So he he would go Tumwater himself to the elders and be like I watched porn. And then he would they would deal with him. However I don't know the details don't care. It's creepy. So there was a ton of pressure for me as a kid with my family dynamics but adding in all this cult stuff made it horrific as a kid in middle school I was under so much stress that I developed shingles. I had a that my right cheek burst out with all these fever blister looking things I don't know if my mom didn't want me to know that it was shingles or if she was just being weird but she would always talk about my herpes zoster outbreak. That's the technical term for shingles. I have to wonder if for some reason she didn't want to say the word shingles out loud because it made it real. It literally wasn't until a couple years ago that I looked up the term that she was using to find out that shingles is what it is. I didn't even know until a couple of years ago.   [00:31:05] So imagine going to a middle school with a side of your face blown up with what looked like fever blisters all over as if I wasn't weird enough already by not being able to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and just all the things that I mentioned in the school episode had now had this looking back those teacher I had some teachers who kind of gave me a looks of pity. And you know at the time I figured it was just because I looked like a freak. But maybe they actually realize that I was a kid with shingles and knew that there had to be some reason behind it. And usually what brings on shingles is tremendous stress.   [00:31:46] To give you an idea of the environment in my house I like to say that we had the three ups. These were favorite terms from my dad.   [00:31:55] The three ups in no particular order were grow up buck up and shut up.   [00:32:02] Did I mention that he gave talks from a platform as an example of the head of a happy family. Those three ups were the answer to just about anything. I think I mentioned earlier it was a total emotional desert. I believe that I mentioned earlier also that I hated my dad. I truly did.   [00:32:21] I was a sensitive kid and my dad had zero emotional sensitivity as evidenced by the witness the wisdom that he's dispersed through these three ups at night when I was really little I would cry myself to sleep. I would sometimes write notes and leave them out for my dad to see. I don't know if he ever did see them but I would leave these notes. My guess is that my mom intercepted them and took them down. Obviously when I was younger. Eventually I just learned to become dead inside and show no emotion. So there were points in my life where the rage started to show through my best friend once told me that I had no heart because he told me something pretty emotional. And I did not react at all. Looking back I can't remember what it was but I remember what he said. I remember him pointing out that I had no heart. It really hit me. I think maybe somebody had died and I seemingly didn't care. And you know I don't know at that time I probably didn't.   [00:33:23] On the other hand my mom was very emotional. I would say too much. OK. I did say too much so when I was a kid something changed with her at a point in my childhood.   [00:33:38] Now again my goal here isn't to exploit the personal issues of people that I was close to. I'm trying to only mention things that tie into the plots of the whole Jaida narrative. But I do feel that this relates I'm going to try to write a line here and we'll see how I do. I've actually got this written out pretty much word for word because I'm trying to be sensitive but it does apply. And I think you'll you'll see how Suffice it to say that my mom went from a very vibrant person to what could only be described as catatonic when I was in my early teens. I think it was my early teens some around there. She spent some time in some facilities trying to get help for whatever was going on. She would be gone for weeks at a time. I remember being at the meetings and she would just sit and rock during the meeting with a vacant look in her eyes. It was honestly pretty scary as a kid. She would disappear into the back rooms of the Keenum hall during meetings. And I remember watching elders running back there after her. I didn't really know what was going on but I didn't know that something had changed things changed. Nobody was talking about it. And we were just expected to sit there and pay attention at meetings like good little Jehovah's Witness kids like nothing was going on. There was a certain amount of denial that always hung over my family. And honestly Jehovah's Witnesses in general nothing to see here move along. It's all about appearances.   [00:35:23] Let's make it look good. I mentioned already that we had neighbors on one side that had a horded yard and some of the issues that we felt.   [00:35:33] Arose from pests and things like that. I also mentioned that the neighbors on the other side were witnesses and the mother next door study with my mom and they were friends. But what I didn't say was that the mom next door was pretty abusive to us. At one point she accused my mom of gouging her couch if her kids came home from school or just it just happened that they had lice.   [00:36:03] She would come over and accuse us of giving it to them and wanted to check us all for lice and of course my mom would acquiesce because she couldn't stand up or because they always talk down to us like a lesser class of people. And the lights must have come from the US those those kids next door. Not that there's any shame in having lies. I mean it happens it can happen to anybody. It's just that this is one of those things especially when you have kids at school they get transmitted. But we never had it. Not that that stopped her from blaming. She was going to blame us. It was always our fault. My friend next door and I played too much at my house. Then the complaint was that we were playing too much at her house. There was always some complaint and she was always pushing my mom around. Honestly I could not stand her.   [00:36:57] But my mom always defended her.   [00:37:01] I would say or I have said and my wife and I joke that that she almost worshipped her.   [00:37:08] Now I believe there was a reason for that. I never understood this.   [00:37:15] It always completely baffled me other than maybe you know here's a person who's a bully and here's a person who's a victim but without getting into the gory details within the last year in reconnecting with people and hearing stories and things like that let's just say that there was there was abuse.   [00:37:42] That's my mom likely or allegedly went through as a child. Well there was also abuse next door. Not only did they treat us poorly but our houses were three feet apart and the walls are paper thin. So we are all kinds that thing is going on. There was always someone screaming or yelling.   [00:38:05] There was a garage in the back where the kids would get punished and you hear some kid get in Scream screaming while he was being hit. The one time I was in the backyard playing with my friend next door and I heard his parents fighting. She was screaming at him like she often did. I believe she slapped him and then I heard a boom and a thud. He hit her back. I jumped the fence went home got my mom and it was handled I don't remember if the cops are called or what. But but regardless there was a lot of there were a lot of things going on next door.   [00:38:44] That doesn't mean it was all potentially prosecutable. But abuse doesn't have to be prosecutable to be abuse. Actually though one child did go to jail for specific abuses Well it just so happens as things sometimes do.   [00:39:08] There's a certain synchronicity in life abusers and abuse victims seem to find each other somehow.   [00:39:17] I don't know if it's an energy they put off or what but it happens all the time. I feel that my mom stuck up for the mom next door so vehemently even though she treated my mom like a dog because she just had that abuser vibe and it made my mom feel at home in some way. It seemed to be almost destiny that led our family down the path of becoming Jehovah's Witnesses. Everything fits together in one perfect storm of dysfunction and crazy.   [00:39:48] I'm going to take a second here and say that the experience of writing this all out recording it talking about it it's not real easy. It's not easy to talk about people that you know. I don't know that that you care about you.   [00:40:05] You wish things could be different but them's the facts. This is it.   [00:40:11] And so I'm trying to put it out there and be real because this is the reality behind the appearances that so many of Jehovah's Witnesses put on.   [00:40:26] It's kind of hard to see that decades of my life were impacted so deeply because of a chance real estate transaction that led to moving next door to Jehovah's Witnesses who just happened to play roles that fit with the roles of my parents and then kind of took everything in a horrible direction.   [00:40:47] But moving on we didn't really have much money. My dad often just worked a low fairly low wage factory job.   [00:41:04] The company he worked for was horrible. He would have nightmares later in life even after quitting working there about that company because of the conditions there they would go on strike quite often so when the company went on strike we would have no income. And honestly if it wasn't for someone leaving bags of groceries on our car after a meeting one time I'm not sure what we would have had to eat that week. So you know props to the Jehovah's Witness who did that that reached out like a good human being and did help. Let's also admit that because your home was with us it would feel well you know of course we did that because we're this worldwide brotherhood and we take care of our own well and they like to pat themselves on the back. But let let's just admit that there are lots of nice people out there that if they knew of a situation like that with a family with kids would have helped by sharing some groceries with them as well. So it's not not specific to Jehovah's Witnesses but I will give whoever anonymously did that props for doing so. Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from working overtime or giving any more to their employers than necessary because they have responsibilities to the organization or to God as they see it.   [00:42:27] My dad had a ton of things to do in the corrugation. He was an elder. So in addition to working full time he had those meetings for an hour. Tuesday night two hours Thursday night and two hours Sunday morning that we all went to. He also made sure that we went out in field service. That's the term for going out knocking on doors of field service or field ministry. So we would go out in service knocking on doors on Saturdays from 9:30 to noon or maybe 12:30 because he was an elder Sometimes he would then have special meetings that he had to attend with other elders on Saturday afternoons to handle you know like official corrugation business. And then Sunday after the two hour meeting we would go out in the field ministry again for an hour after eating lunch.   [00:43:15] So it's not like he had a lot of time or energy to devote to getting us out of the hole to be honest. I've often wondered who and what my dad would have been if it wasn't for the pressures that he was under as one of Jehovah's Witnesses as an elder and as a father of a family that was growing. I don't know if it's just a confirmation bias of my own that I remember this this happy year dad before we ever became Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe that's not actually true. I don't know. But things certainly did change and I do not remember a happy. That is one of Jehovah's Witnesses maybe I was just getting older as well I'm more observant.   [00:44:08] But anyway he did not have the time or energy to get us out of the jam that we were in. In fact it was our tax returns every year when it was tax return. That was our Christmas. There was no celebration. But when we got a tax return it bailed us out of whatever James we were in. Look we can we could finally get an oil change on our car. You know the one annual oil change we could get some used clothing maybe some school supplies. There was other kids that usually kept me afloat in school with like paper and pencils and stuff. I would quote borrow from them. Obviously I never returned it. I couldn't I didn't have anything to give them but tax return. There was a good time and we did have fun times though.   [00:45:04] You know like I said it was hard to find time. My dad was pretty militant about us always being at all those things. All those meetings going out in the ministry on Saturday and Sunday none of it was optional. At one point I noticed that it wasn't really like we made a choice to do any of these things anymore it was just compulsive. It was just what we did. And then if the opportunity came up to go fishing or something. Usually we'd turn it down because you know dad said we had to go out and service Saturday morning so we couldn't go fishing. Most families I will say that my parents brand of Jehovah's Witnesses. They took things rather literally. They really they were perfectionistic had some degree in their pursuit of this though that really is the admonition from the organization. There are just some people that blow off certain things eventually my grandfather who bought that basketball goal for us that sat in a box for what seemed like eternity. Eventually grandpa went ahead and paid somebody to come out and install it for us after he saw that my dad would do it on occasion. My dad would actually even come out and play with us. He played basketball. He throw a baseball with us sometimes and that was that was absolute magic to kids who just were looking for any kind of positive attention from their dad. We would go fishing sometimes the local modern league baseball team had free tickets all the time. It was never sold out so we could go to those games.   [00:46:43] My mom was good about trying to make sure we had things to do she'd she'd squirreled away change in and we go on little adventures at times or she just go up the street and get us McDonald's is a treat. She was the only chance that we had of reasoning with my dad. His answer to pretty much everything in life which actually now that I'm saying this like literally now while I'm recording is ironic because my dad what did he tell me to tell the elders if I'm ever asked to do anything in the congregation. My answer was to be an automatic yes.   [00:47:18] My dad's answer to him. I don't say literally everything let's say 98 percent of things at home hey dad cannot. No no was the answer to everything for him.   [00:47:35] So my mom was a pretty good buffer. She would run interference sometimes. I wish she could see that he was in a bad mood and tried to make life a little better.   [00:47:49] If you saw us outside you'd think things were great if you saw us at the meetings. You would think things were awesome. But it's behind closed doors that monster hard not out in the open.   [00:48:03] Jehovah's Witnesses are no different though they put an absolute premium on appearances in the next episode.   [00:48:10] I'm going to get into what actually happened in my life as one of Jehovah's Witnesses as a young person. What happened at those meetings. What was it like to go knocking on strangers doors. How are we taught to view the world around us.   [00:48:26] There are so many things that we were taught that had lasting impact that there are literally people who have been out of the organization for decades that still struggle and can't shake certain things that they were indoctrinated with even though they're free from the cold.   [00:48:48] So I really do appreciate you listening if you like this or think that it might help somebody else please subscribe so that you can get each episode as they come out and tell others about this. I'm putting this out into the world to be of help and it's not going to help anybody. Obviously people don't spread the word. I don't have a big podcast network behind me. I don't have the cache of Leah Remini. That allowed her to do a series on Scientology. I'm just a guy that lived a certain life that wants to expose what literally millions of other people around the world have gone through. There are over eight million Jehovah's Witnesses and scores of ex Jehovah's Witnesses out there. There are millions more that have family or friends that are Jehovah's Witnesses that they might be concerned about take this to them so that they can see what it's like. And if nothing else maybe it just helps somebody to feel less alone. Visit my site at w w w dot this J.W. life dot com if you want to discuss this further. I'll even post some pics and other information there that will add to the story if you like. If you look now you'll find some of my childhood before things changed. Some pictures from that there will be a place to comment below each episode that I put out so there can be a discussion. Ask questions give suggestions or if you want just say hi I might answer them on another podcast or maybe have fun you know. [/expand]

I've only been in Bali five days and I already feel blissed out. I've had four massages, two meditation sessions, one surf lesson, two yoga lessons and a 4.5 hour pampering session! And I TOTALLY needed this, because the last month or two has been pretty cray-cray. As you may remember in my previous episode called Changing Plans, there's been quite a few plans that have been changed, including now owning a lifestyle property and getting a puppy for my birthday. Yes! My lovely man Josh has gone ahead and put a deposit on a white German Shepherd. So when I get back to New Zealand on April 5th, it's going to be all go - moving into the house, getting it furnished, setting up our new base and waiting on the puppy. I was content to go hard out on the organizing, planning, doing and making shit happen on all fronts, because I knew I'd be having this relax time in Bali, and of course my upcoming business sabbatical starting April 1st. If you've never been to Bali, let me just tell you this island has a very special energy to it. It's renowned for being a vortex of feminine energy. So for females in particular, when you're here you have this sense of being grounded, feeling strong, sensual and in your feminine power. Everywhere you look there are lush trees, green rice fields, beautiful flowers, street dogs, friendly Balinese people smiling, scooters whizzing by, yoga studios, cute cafes, healthy juices galore and many relaxed looking foreigners who are whiling their days away doing not a lot of anything much. Which is why Bali is the perfect island to come and unwind, de stress and lose yourself, or find yourself depending on what you're here to do. But obviously we don't all have the opportunity to buggar off to Bali when we feel like it do we? So it got me thinking: Why can't we have a mini vacation each and every day to get some of the same affects of a longer vacation? Why do we have to book in holidays months, and for some people, years in advance? Why all this waiting when we have the power and ability to take a break right now? In a Huffington Post article by Jill Ferguson she lists the benefits of vacations as: Reduces stress - as I can attest to, vacations help shrink stress and anxiety while boosting the mental and physical health of you and the entire family, if you happen to be vacationing with them. Helps your heart stay healthy - no really. In a 20-year study, researchers found that women who took a vacation once every six years or less were almost eight times more likely to develop coronary heart disease or have a heart attack than women who took at least two vacations per year. Improves your mental health (especially if it's longer than 2 weeks) because you're less tense, have higher energy levels and more positive emotions, fewer negative feelings and less depression. Improves your relationships because families or couples who vacation together undergo shared experiences, communication and togetherness, escape and relaxation and experiential learning, all of which contribute positively to well-being and to relationships. You may have heard me talk about taking a mid week weekend. I mean why wait for the weekend to experience one, but what about a daily vacation? That's a novel thought right? I dug into this idea with my dear friend Jaime Masters, of Eventual Millionaire fame, who's with me here in Bali. We planned this holiday in late 2016 when she found out she got asked to speak in the Philippines, just before my Freedom Mastermind Retreat I hold in Bali each year. So this was our window of time to fly into Bali at the same time and enjoy 9 days together. And we are doing that extremely well. Jaime is a single mother of two with an extremely successful and busy coaching and mastermind business. She's also a self prescribed geek when it comes to maximizing time efficiency and more recently bio hacking - do it yourself biology optimization, so to speak. Or as Jaime puts it - how to be a badass. So here's our jam session on how to optimize your day and also how to take mini vacations through a variety of suggested activities we do, and that we also think should be on your list. Natalie: So this is exciting! We are recording this in our lovely little room in Ketut's Place in Bali in Ubud and there's thunder and lightning happening and rain. This is cool. I am sitting on the bed as you do, with my girl, Jaime Masters and we've been talking a lot over the last couple of days about treating yourself because yesterday we had a four and a half hour pamper session! Thanks to Jaime, an early birthday present and it was amazing. And I was like, "Why don't we do this all the time?" and then I think actually if you did that all the time you'd just be in bliss zone and you wouldn't get anything done. Jaime: I think it can get boring after a little while. Natalie: Yeah, but it was pretty amazing. Like we had several massages, we had a facial; we had pedicures, manicures, head massage, hair treatment, body scrub. And I was in and out of states of bliss, in an out of state of sleeping, dreaming, imagining, ideating. It's beautiful. But what I want to just chat to you about, because I think you are really good at this with your full-time roster of amazing clients that you coach over at Eventual Millionaire and your business and your full time podcast where you are interviewing millionaires all the time. I mean you have one of the busiest schedules I know off plus you are a mom, full-time mom. So do you want to just share a couple of the ways you treat yourself throughout the day because I think you do this really well. Jaime: So first of all anybody that says that they don't have time, means that they don't want to. There is a great quote about that by Lao Tzu. "Time is a created thing. To say 'I don't have time,' is like saying, 'I don't want to." ? Lao Tzu So out of everybody I know, I am extremely busy. We need that time because we go crazy and nutso and when you get on that roll you are not efficient or effective in anything you do. So lessons learned from me sort of going a little insane, to children, and to my business and everything else has led me to actually taking the time in between. Even 15 minutes of going, "Ah! This is just for me and I don't have to do anything else." So we talked about meditation before and I definitely do meditate a lot. Sometimes in small spurts. Like I literally was just meditating for fifteen minutes while you were on the phone just now, because I feel like it gives me a deeper state of relaxation. I do that throughout the day quite often even at home in-between calls. But just trying to take that time where you can actually shut off whatever you're crazy entrepreneur brain is saying and go, "Okay this is time that I don't actually have to think about that", because otherwise we will. Our brain will just keep going forever and ever and ever. And so trying to pull those pieces out as best as you can, you know what I mean? Natalie: And I think we started discussing this from the minute I landed in Bali and I think you did too. We've both come off some pretty hectic schedules, me with house buying and packing up and book writing and helping my mom move and you with speaking in the Philippines, and having to do all the work around that as well. I think we both got to Bali and we are just like, 'ahhhhhhh' and I just noticed instantly how my mind just quietened and I've done more yoga and massage in the last two days than I had probably in the last months. So why don't we roll through, like kind of spit-fire out some of our favorite at home mini vacations we take during a pretty busy working day? Jaime: Okay so for me, I have a routine at the beginning. I literally wake up before my kids wake up now, 5:30am in the morning. I am not a morning person as much as Hal Elrod told me to wake up in the morning. I was like, "No I don't think so." It's literally only been the last four months or so. Beforehand I would meditate right after I brought them to school, but I realized that it wasn't quite enough for me and I kept feeling like I had too much to do throughout the day when the kids are at school so I moved it. And so far so good. I'm going strong but I am not a morning person! Natalie: Thunder. If you have any of this, this is real Bali in the background. Just making it real. Jaime: That was number one, so that was an evolution in my process. I have been meditating for a very long time and I was never like, "I have to meditate every day." It's just I wanted to, I wanted to. It is something that I pull out. I also do probably five to fifteen minutes in between whenever I am feeling overwhelmed or brain dead. So when I do a lot, I batch everything and so whenever I do client calls, sometimes I'm like, "How can my brain stop functioning like it should?" and being in states of flow are way more productive in general, so I try and figure out ways. There's a good book called Stealing Fire, it talks about hacking into the flow state that I was telling you a little bit about. What can we do that makes us feel so much better that we can come back and hit the ground running instead of just feeling horrid and crazy? Just what we were talking about this before too, like all day long nutso. And so I'll do that, I have a pool in the back sometimes when it's nice out, I'll go jump in the pool and reassess things, especially during the day when I'm actually working on stuff. At night time I'll definitely go, "This is my time! I am going to have a bubble bath. I am going to do whatever I can possibly do to turn that piece off". Because we don't make a conscious effort in general to turn it off. Natalie: A bubble bath is so good. I am looking forward to potentially buying a spa and having a spa pool for night time relaxation. I like the idea of a sauna, whether you go to one or have one at your place. Often gyms have a sauna so just even ten minutes sweating it out and just being present with your body is pretty amazing. Other things are just dropping into fifteen, twenty, or a thirty minute yoga session during the day, and I love starting with five minutes of downward dog because it ultimately ends up being a lot more, and just giving yourself that space. Also, when I have a dog which I am getting soon! I would just have cuddle time with my dog. I'd literally have a play time, go outside, throw the Frisbee, throw the ball, play. You've got kids around you, you'd grab them, play. Jaime: That's a funny thing. So sometimes I'm so back-to-back I like walking into the mailbox it's like my time. I literally go, "Okay I need some sun. I am going to go walk outside", because I literally only have like five minutes, like literally I am so scheduled. No matter what the time is, it doesn't matter I think it's the intention behind it that makes a huge difference. Because sometimes you can play with your dog and be like, "Oh that still didn't really help." But if you are really intentional about it, it makes-- Natalie: Throw the phone away for a minute. Jaime: As hard as it is. Natalie: Get back to nature. Sometimes just actually being outside and getting sun on your face is a really beautiful thing and just tune into the sounds around you. Jaime: I go and I lay in my backyard. I have the pool and I will go and lay on the bed and feel like, because we have an outdoor bed, just sit there for five minutes and not even have to do a meditation or anything like that, but just sort of soak in the sun. Natalie: The Vitamin D. Jaime: Sometimes I need that big time. And then being able to sort of go; "Now I reset. Now I can go back in". Very helpful. Natalie: We should caveat this with the fact that you are very efficient with your time. So it's not like you ever say, "I am really busy." You are fulfilled. You are busy but I as you said you batch things. Do you want to maybe talk people through kind of your working week so that... they do hear that you have time off, and time out and you are really good at, oh we didn't even mention it, you get regular massages? So do I but you get them every single week, yeah? Jaime: Oh yeah. Natalie: I think if you can you should even if it's half an hour. Jaime: Well this is the thing I kept going, "Oh I don't have the time because I have kids and I can't... when can I get a massage when I don't have them. We'll I have to work during the school hours". All that craziness goes on in your head. Let me just say, everybody can solve every problem pretty much. So my massage person comes in at their bed time, my kids go to bed, massage person comes in and I literally go to sleep right afterwards. Natalie: They come to your house? Jaime: They come to my house. It's not anymore expensive either. And they will do it like nine o'clock at night which is insane. Natalie: And then you just go to sleep? Jaime: I just go to sleep. It's like the best ever. It's amazing but it's because I am so scheduled and so intentional with my time. Because this is the thing too, it's not like I don't take a time off with the kids, it's that I have to be super effective whenever I am doing whatever I am doing. I have a lot of things going on so a typical schedule for me ,and I make my clients do all this too. I call it the master's schedule: Mondays are meeting days, back to back meetings like literally, with my masterminds, with my personal scrum from my team. Tuesdays are coaching days. Wednesdays, every other Wednesday is an interview so either back to back millionaire interviews or back to back me doing interviews on other people's podcast and then the rest of the week is free. So it's 'working free' so within the time my kids are in school which they get out at three thirty. Then I have open space that I can actually fill in advance because I am one of those people. But usually when I have the kiddos I'm done at three and then I don't work again unless it's like a crazy launch and I have to make an exception. It's me like going for a walk with the kids or I try and get some of the more special, relaxing kind of time with them. Not that I don't have to do homework, not that I don't have to do all the other stuff, but it's just trying to have that space within the confinement. How to take a quick daily vacation Alright hopefully you have some firm ideas on how to take a daily mini vacation. To recap: Short bursts of exercise - dance, walk to the mailbox, dip in the pool, play with your dog, drop down and do yoga. Treat yourself - have a massage or a sauna, at home or book it in at your local. Read a book - jump in a hammock, laze on your bed, lie on the floor, curl up in the couch, throw your phone away and disconnect the internet for 30 mins...then enjoy your fave book. Pleasure yourself - did I really just say that? Heck yeah I did. Have a quickie, grab your fave sex toy and take a moment to...you know...have some fun. Or grab your partner and kiss them passionately. It releases endorphins which are feel good hormones and everyone needs those - plus you do that stuff on vacation right? So this IS a mini vacation. Meditation - refer to episode 2 - Mind Your Mindfulness for a 1 minute one! They say meditation can be better than sleep and sometimes sex. So I think it's time to really take this one seriously. Before we bring back Jaime, as she's been delving into meditation for almost a decade but has upped her game in the last year with amazing results, let's say hello to Freshbooks The working world has changed. With the growth of the internet there's never been more opportunities for the self-employed. To meet this need, FreshBooks is excited to announce the launch of an all new version of their cloud accounting software! It's been redesigned from the ground up and custom built for exactly the way you work. Get ready for the simplest way to be more productive, organized, and most importantly get paid quickly. The all new FreshBooks is not only ridiculously easy to use, it's also packed full of powerful features. Here are just a few of the ones Jessica Broome, entrepreneur and Freshbooks customer loves: Go to freshbooks.com/quest and check out their full list of amazing features then sign up and save yourself time and money today. Just enter Quest For Freedom where it says 'How did you hear about us'. Ok, let's dive into meditation. So on a couple of the previous episodes I've been talking about meditation. And I have to say that I think we've only just scratched the surface on this and I am going to be doing a lot more work around this. But having chatted to Jaime over the last couple of days intensely around her her meditation practice, I've seen this different side to it so I think I've always sat on the surface going, "What if I could just get five or ten or fifteen minutes a day?". I know the benefits of meditation but I wanted to bring Jaime back because she's just sort of open my mind and blown my mind with the routine and the practice and the intention behind her meditation and how much is that impacting everything else. So I haven't seen Jaime for a year and a half and this time around seeing her I turned up and I was like, "Oh my gosh! You are just more like grounded." So here's a conversation we had about her meditation. Natalie: So who is this Joe Dispenza guy that you keep going on about? Jaime: Okay so I've been meditating for a really really long time and then I became a disciple. The reason why I found Joe is because I'd injured my foot and he wrote a book called "You Are the Placebo" and I didn't want to have foot surgery. That's the thing it was for the problem-solution piece of it. I'd always meditated. I didn't even know his whole thing was about meditation. Natalie: How did you find him? Jaime: My best friend gave me the book. Because she had been following him for awhile. But I was just trying to solve whatever the heck that thing was. I didn't know how deep he goes into meditation about how your body can change itself. And so it makes sense with, You Are the Placebo, but I never linked meditation and that before which was really awesome. Because before I thought it was, "I am a crazy, business entrepreneur that needs to get everything out of her head and feel okay" because otherwise I might have anxiety or whatever the pieces are. That's why I'd meditated before. And then I found this thing and I was like, "Oh there's so much more to it than that!" Natalie: And they are self-guided aren't they? Which I like because It's quite hard to just sit and not have thoughts. In fact, it's near impossible. Even the monks after many decades of practice don't' do it super well but they are far better than us. And I think I'd like to be like walking down the beach listening to meditation and then there you were, I was having a surf lesson and you were walking down the beach listening to a self-guided meditation. One where Joe got you to like ground your feet into the sand at one point, stop and just be. So I love the sound of that. Because I love walking and I like being active while meditating. What happens in that meditation? Jaime: So that one's really interesting. Joe has a bazillion different types of meditation. Some were shorter. This one's an hour and fifteen minutes. Some of our friends are like, "Oh surfing is so like that". It was funny when I was walking, thankfully eyes open for quite a bit, I was looking at some of the surfers and just thinking about how amazing that is too. There's a quite a few different pieces to his types of meditation. And so one is a big breathing aspect and then walking, where he doesn't have you do that because you look weird. But what he does as you start walking, he has you start envisioning your future and then walking as your future self. And imagining whatever happened that you want to have happened in the future as if it was a memory of the past. So you are walking and he is like talking about how to think of this and think of that, and as you are walking you feel amazing, on top of the world type of person. And then he has you stop and just close your eyes and imagine the feelings that you would feel: gratitude, joy - whatever those things are or affirmations are. And literally, because your body's been walking and energized, already like to me it goes like crazy. It makes you really feel the emotions. And then you walk again. And it levels up the emotional side of it. Levels up the feeling of, "Oh my gosh! This is what I'll feel like in the future." Right, that confidence, whatever those pieces are. And so you are sort of stepping into what that is and it makes a lot more believable. So as an entrepreneur I feel like, "Oh I want to speak on a stage at TEDx in front of a thousand people." I was chatting with somebody when I spoke in the Philippines, she's like, "I love crowds of 10,000 to 15,000 people." And I was like, "Hmmmm. I haven't done that before. 10,000 people that's a lot of people. Wow, Okay great!" She said, "The energy is just insane." And so then I started going, "Let's imagine what that would look like. I'm sure I can do it". And so in the walking meditation, I started bringing in some of those pieces. So when you start bringing in the pieces as if it already happened, especially the science behind meditation, it actually does. Have you heard the piano player thing? They had a study where: Some people actually play the piano in a certain number of hours per day for a specific song. Another one just did the finger exercises with no piano. And then the other ones meditated on it. So the people would actually meditate on it. They never touched the piano, and they actually were just as good as the other people. Natalie: When they finally went to play the piano? Jaime: Yes which is insane. Natalie: I've heard a few studies around stuff just re-visioning exercise on that. Jaime: Yes. It gets your body in certain state. It's really interesting to see the studies because we are placebos by the way, right? So we affect our thoughts and everything affects everything. And I think entrepreneurs need to get this better and better and better. It's not just clearing your brain it's all those thoughts that we think, that determine what we actually take action on, what we actually do. All those beliefs or whatever you want to say whether they are subconscious or not. When you start flushing those out, and you start imagining yourself..... I've had a friend who hated speaking and then he did like a hundred different speaking gigs all in a row just to get over the fear and to get really good at it. Well, you do a 100 of them and you'll get really good at it! Imagine meditating on it a hundred days in a row instead of actually having to go do it. And again there might be a little bit of twinge when you do the first one but it's going to feel so much more natural even just the visualization of it. And I've interviewed a ton of millionaires, 400 and something millionaires, so many of them bring up visioning, it's insane. I was not woo-woo at all and I started going down this road and interviewing millionaires and I'm like, "How come everybody keeps talking about this?". Because I really wanted to know and so then I started looking at the science behind it all. And then I'm like, "There's something to this", because I am a sciency kind of gal and then I've started implementing and doing it. It has literally changed so many things and what I can see is possible moving forward. Natalie: You mentioned that it's helped you, one being all grounded and not even noticed that visibly in you. You said your skin is glowing. You think you looked younger like not aging. What are some of the other benefits? Jaime: There's a whole thing on epigenetics which if you read any of Joe's books. Sleep Smarter by Shawn Stevenson talks about epigenetics - our bodies and what we feel basically. Because this is the thing, I don't think people really understand, and again the science is very very new behind all this. It hasn't really come out to the general population. If I say epigenetics, people are more like, "I don't have a clue what that is". But your DNA actually can turn on and off based on your environment. And so it's not all like you were born like this and now we are like that forever, it's what you ingest, what you are doing, what you are thinking that all affects your body, which makes logical sense when you think about it. We are not emotionless robots. All the pieces and parts really make a difference. You've seen the president go from looking really really young beforehand and how the heck did he age so much in such a short period of time? Like the stress and everything. And so it really affects your body. So you can do it in the opposite direction also. How can we change that? Natalie: I was telling you about Josh's friend Rohan, his father from England who's been doing transcendental meditation for something like forty five years or more. I haven't met him and I really want to meet him. I told you that right? Because he is late 70s and he looks like he is in his 40s. He gets up at five a.m every morning. He does one to two hours of transcendental meditation with the music and all the vibrations and everything. And he is apparently just super focused and onto it. He doesn't need much sleep. Just incredibly aware and has energy all day and that youth, that vitality and that absolute solidness around what he does and who he is. He's absolutely precise and clear on who he is and what energy he gives off. So that fascinates me. It does make me feel, yes you could change your state and you can change your entire DNA makeup. By the way, did you know that when you get sunburnt you are changing the DNA? There's a whole science behind it which you'd love. When you get sunburnt, your cells are exploding and we have billions of cells right, but they are exploding and each little explosion is shifting and changing your DNA. So overtime you can actually change your DNA of your body. Jaime: Good way or bad way? Natalie: I don't think sunburn is obviously good for you at all, but it's just more the point that scientists have seen that you are actually changing your DNA through that. So there must be other ways of changing your DNA. Jaime: When you look up epigenetics and you'll see some of those pieces because it's insane to read some of the studies on this. I didn't realize this. I'm like, "Man!". It is one of those things where it's such a new science so it seems a little woo-woo to people. It is with any sort of newer science. Natalie: I know scientists needs the data and the facts but also I just want to see it's working. Jaime: This is what I do, I'm like, "Well I'll test it and If I like it, I'll keep doing it and if I don't like it, then I won't." But there's a lot of Charletons that are like, "Oh you do this thing and it's amazing!". So that's what we have to be careful of, but to me I'll test anything and if I like it and I see results then I'll continue. I care about the smarts and logic. And so meditation has allowed me to tap in way more and not just be a 'running around like trying to do everything head wise', but actually tapping into all parts of your body. I never thought that your gut or intuition was a big deal until, again I heard so many millionaires going, "I went with my gut" and I'm like, "Wait! There's no real science behind that." I'll put a spreadsheet together so I can look at all the facts, this is why I am so science based because I need something to make a decision. I would almost never go with my gut. Natalie: Gut every time. Jaime: See... but to me I didn't get the point of gut. I thought that that wasn't logic. When you read like the book, Blank and we realize how amazing we are as human beings. We can make an assessment on something without even necessarily knowing the facts and data. Like that book was very eye opening to me because I was like, "Oh, maybe I do know more than logic will tell me and research and data." And so realizing that, along with everything else tapping into that. You can shut yourself off big time. Most people do. Most of the clients that I talk to I ask "What's your gut saying?" They are like "I don't know." Natalie: Oh really? I do it all the time. The only time that I haven't sometimes is travelling, because I listen to my gut and instinct all the time in travelling. "Don't go down there" or actually "Don't take that bus". Jaime: What does that feel like? Where? How do you do that? Natalie: Literally like a strong sensation to not go ahead and buy that ticket. Where? It's a good point. You do actually feel it in your stomach and then I feel like it just triggers straight away to your brain with a no. I have voice in my head going, "That's not a wise idea." It's really crazy and I just listen to it all the time. Jaime: I had heard this one place, and I have not verified sources but, what's interesting is they were saying that it's actually your heart that is making a lot of these decisions, and then going to either your stomach and then your brain and so it triggers all of them right? We sometimes think it's our brain first. Natalie: It's literally like a decision and sometimes your body will stop. Sometimes your body will stop walking like 'you are not going to go down there, Natalie'. It's the fight-or-flight response that I feel kicks in and that is triggered by your immune system and/or your nervous system, so I guess your heart is the thing that's beating. Jaime: We just don't know very much about our bodies though. Like it's kind of sad. I am trying to teach my children like, "Okay. Where do you feel that in your body?" so that they can become more in tune because I never was. I was like, what is that feeling? I would never go with my gut in general. So knowing and being able to say, "This actually works." I needed all the data from all the millionaires like, "Wait, you've went with your gut and that worked? Wow! Interesting." It would be really interesting to ask which ones typically go with their gut and which ones don't. Natalie: And where do you feel that in your body - that's an interesting question to ask anybody. Going on a bit of tangent here but asking 'how do you feel' and see what people's responses are, because if you ask a very pragmatic logic based person, they will go, "I am blah blah blah." Jaime: Okay so this is my best friend, she had to ask me every single day. She goes, "How do you feel?" and I'd say, "Good" and she'd go, "Good is not a feeling." "Great! I feel great!", she said, "That's not a feeling." I didn't have the words to express it. I literally had one of those little cards that said all the emotions on it. But I couldn't find the nuances between the emotions because I didn't think it was a big deal. Like what does it matter? Natalie: And it does matter. Jaime: It totally does now I know. I am teaching my children this. So tapping into intuition or tapping into your gut is an example. I don't know what that felt like. I was like, "Huh! Nope. I got nothing." The little nuances in anxiety or the little nuances in joy, the little nuances in things that I just never paid attention to. And yet we can be so much more expressive as human beings if you actually know that. I had beforehand thought, "If I just negate all the bad emotions and only felt the good ones, I'll be happy in my world". I mean you know in entrepreneurship too, it doesn't work that way. Shit happens. Natalie: It's a rollercoaster. Jaime: Exactly. You have to mitigate all of it and sometimes the crappy stuff is teaching you the most and you have to be okay with those emotions because if you try and negate that you won't take the risks, even calculated risks. You just won't make the steps towards that because you are so scared of negative emotions. It's an interesting thing. Natalie: I think a lot of people live in the state of, "I'm okay. I'm okay. So I am not going to show any emotions." And you asking me the other day, "Do you feel that you tapped into that? Are you emotional?" I have my moments around my Dad because I was quite surprised that I wasn't more upset or just really in that state, but I do think it's because I focused on celebrating his life. It doesn't mean I think I shut down my feelings. Like I will have my moments where I'll just cry. As I told you I am big soak in movies. I'll just have waterworks in movies. I feel like a lot around animals and nature. I don't worry so much or sweat the small stuff but I often think about global issues or environment or inhumane treatment of animals or people. And that stuff gets me really emotional but I think there are so many people who are walking through life they are taking the drugs and numbing them. Jaime: But that's the point right? The placebo, the book is all about, you don't need to rely on what we think. One of the reasons why we take a placebo and think it will work is because people have told us that it will work. If a doctor someone of high authority goes, "This will work for you." Even if it numbs you like crazy, you are like, "Oh then half of it's probably the placebo effect and the pills don't even work." So it's one of those things where us knowing ourselves better. If you are the type, "I am emotional in these sort of ways and I don't need to like make myself be emotional in other ways either", but knowing yourself better makes a huge difference. So if you do get sick or whatever, trying to pay attention to what those emotions were within it and then solving that instead of going after like, "I just need more alcohol" or "I need more drugs". Like when I injured my neck they gave me Hydrocodone and I'm like, "That's a lot!". It's a narcotic. They gave me a lot of pills. I was kind of surprised. They gave me like three sets of pills. Natalie: The United States scares me with what they give out. It's such a pill based society. Jaime: And I was like, "So how do I fix it though?". It's one thing to numb the pain and I am okay with pain I can handle a lot of pain but how do I fix it? Nobody really went down that path which sucks. Natalie: It does. Western medicine is very much like immediate solution where as I love the Eastern philosophy around preventing it before it's even happened. Jaime: Yes but the thing is I agree a thousand percent but because we've already gone past the point. So again this is western world but we are sold that we can have everything right now and this is why meditation is so important too. Because we are moving at a constant pace especially entrepreneurs. We are problem solvers and we wanted the problem solved yesterday not today. And so a pill, sure! Faster, easier, more efficient. Natalie: The headache was just from the hours of pampering and all the detox. And when I was in that yoga class, that restorative yoga which I loved and I was having trouble with the hamstring pose and it was really like sinking in. Sinking into that pose and feeling the pain and I wanted to come out of it because we had to hold it for five minutes. And that's when she said, "If you are challenged by this pose, you probably have issues with control, because the control that you put into your everyday life will manifest itself into your basically your hamstring." So the tightening there is the constant control or tension. And I think in intrinsically you know that but whatever we are holding any source of tension or pain or even love manifests itself in your body. Jaime: So that's the whole point of Joe Dispenza, the whole point completely. He was a doctor and he actually cut his spinal cord. It was like crazy he couldn't walk and he didn't want to have surgery. And all the doctors are like, "So you kind to have surgery to fix this", and he was, "I am not going to do it." He meditated. And people were like, "Okay, you meditated your spinal healing. That's a little insane." Natalie: Have he done meditation before? Jaime: I don't remember. I think he must have done something. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be like, "Oh I am going to try meditation and see if this works." He was a chiropractor so he knew the body really really well but what is interesting like you were saying is being able to have whatever is existing in our body usually is for a reason. And unfortunately because we are problem solvers and we want to fix this so fast we just take the pill and go, "That will be okay." But more and more instances of cancer, more and more instances of crazy stuff and we are going, "What's wrong?". Well yeah it's probably food and stuff like that too but there's so many things that we don't understand that us taking care of ourselves, like you said the eastern side of things could have probably prevented but now we are at this tipping point where we can't see the force for the trees anymore. And so that's why it's great that he wrote the book called, You Are the Placebo because there's literally everybody going, "I have a problem. I need a solution." And so being able to show people, "Oh by the way, this could help this." Natalie: I was going to say it sounds of ironic but I am about to say we have to take control or more importantly, we have to take responsibility because things are not going to get better. We are going to have more and more technology. We'd be more and more connected. We are going to have more and more devices. We are going to have more multi-tasking. We are going to have more and more things in our life that are causing us to live lives in totally different way where we don't have peace, quiet, nature, reflection, timeout, thinking time, quiet time. And so we just have to and that's why I am so proud of you because you are making time because you love it every morning to do your meditation. Jaime: One I didn't love it. I couldn't sit for five minutes. I used to lay down because I couldn't sit up. So I couldn't sit up for that long and I hated the five minutes every single time. It's just very much an evolutionary process. That being said I learned my own process. A lot of clients are resistant because they are entrepreneurs and logical and my brain is way too crazy, "I can't do it Jaime". I was like, "I have the same crazy brain you do. I have ADD literally". And so when we are looking at, "Okay what can you do as a first step?" We talked about five minutes of headspace. Headspace is great, Calm app is great, just to sort of slowly get into that and then I have people come back and they are like, "Oh that felt a little better." And then what is that next step and what is that next step, I did this as part of the evolutionary process it to try to make meditation efficient. I would get all the crap out of my head so that way I could feel like i could be more clear. David Allen's Getting Things Done, getting everything out of your head. So I would do that piece along with having this inspired thoughts of, "Oh you know what I should do and this". Natalie: You'd actually literally go sit down or lie down to meditate but then you'd have bing bing bing thoughts. So you'd actually then stop the meditation? Jaime: I wouldn't actually stop the meditation. It's really kind of funny I had a eye pillow on and I'd literally have a journal right next to me and I'd scribble. It's just like a twenty, thirty minute meditation, it wasn't a lot because I would only do the first piece like this. I would literally just go, "Oh!" and write those. Changes of launch plans or the ideas that I have. And then I would be able to clear and be a lot better. So it's still guided meditation but this is what I have my clients do because in general they are like," I can't make it stop." You know what makes it stop? Write all that crap down. And because David Allen talks about with getting things done, if it's still on your head it will keep reminding it. It will keep bringing it up. So there you have it. This topic of Personal Freedom here on the Quest for Freedom Podcast continues to come back to freedom of the mind in so many respects. I know I will continue to delve deeper into this. In the next episode I'll be discussing personal freedom from a place of less stuff weighing you down - as in decluttering. Tune in for that one. And read the full show notes for this episode at nataliesisson.com/7 You can also sign up to get fresh, hip and timely email updates when I release a new episode. Or you can simply subscribe in iTunes, Stitcher, SoundCloud or Google Play and make my day - and hopefully make yours.   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Radio Free Moon Boy is a radio podcast hosted by Jack Bielli and Mike Melanson of Moon Boy Records! We sit down and talk music, tell stories, interview artists and find ourselves in odds situations, time and time again. Is it a music podcast? Is it a comedy podcast? It's Radio Free Moon Boy, baby! Episode 11 - Snowed In With Santa: HO HO HOld the phone! Say what? It's almost Christmas?! Let me check my calendar. Well I'll be.. you're right! There's snow on the ground, nog in our cups and love in our hearts. In this very special Christmas episode, we are joined once again by Santa Claus (wow), Little Bag Of Eggs the Elf (aka Eggbag) and Cody Rudolph (younger cousin of THE Rudolph). Except something is wrong.. and Santa is considering hanging up the red pompomed hat! Can Jack and Mike save Christmas? Find out on this holiday episode of RADIO FREE MOON BOY! This Weeks Playlist: Frosty The Snowman - Santanta Christmas Vibin' - Scented Candle Nog Nog Open Up! (Christmas Is At The Door) - Eggnog Brothers We Love Our Christmas Tree - Outercourse Santa's A Snake - Guy Snake 'Moon Boy Records: Christmas Potluck Three' is available to stream and download via Moon Boy Records here: https://moonboyrecords.bandcamp.com/album/the-moon-boy-records-christmas-potluck-threewww.moonboyrecords.bandcamp.com

Can we, or should we consider Michael Phelps one of the greatest athletes of all time? It's just swimming, right? And it's only every 4 years? Well I'll give you my opinion on it. Why do some people judge pro wrestling fans as losers, or a guy with no life or friends? LeBron James just NOW at 31 years of age and after 13 years in the NBA the highest paid player? Plus some MLB, NBA, and NFL talk. I also give you my opinions on the 49ers first preseason game. I'm bias, outspoken, controversial and very opinionated.

What? Turn off the noise - what does that even mean? Well I'll tell you. You, me and everyone else is bombarded with noise in the form of distractions. Distractions of our own making such as Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, email, messenger let alone the phone actually ringing! So how do we get some quite? Take five minutes to listen and I can share a few ways to get things done and get you to feel a great sense of achievement having done so. Please enjoy this FMQ 5 minute quickie and if you do please share and subscribe in iTunes - There's a link on my website paulclough.co.uk Enjoy and shine brightly Paul

A Bun in the Oven and Johnny's Baby - Episode 9 Season 1Welcome to the extra special Episode 9 of We Write Weird Shit! What makes it so special, you ponder sardonically to yourself. Well I'll tell you! First of all, we finally added an sign-on, a little touch that responsible podcasters started in episode one. We also tried out a new recording method that I think sounds much clearer than before. But what really makes it special is, Jake and Jon have co-written today's story, starring Jake and Jon as themselves! Thanks, Kyleigh, for the suggestion. We hope you regret it.Otherwise, we talk about, like, Star Wars and Batman and shit.Next week: An ant as a roommate and a muffin store, suggested by Kim.Links mentioned this episode:http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053125/http://mamalaz.tumblr.com/tagged/modern-solo-adventureshttps://soundcloud.com/idriselba/idris-elba-look-with-your-earshttp://www.buzzfeed.com/katienotopoulos/questions-about-mpreg-you-were-embarrassed-to-ask#.qaA2aPK07

What's that sound? Well I'll be! It's the dulcet tones of Mr. David Tach. Yes, this week Dave "Sweet Sweet Butter Voice" Tach fills in for Justin "Hoops" McElroy. We discuss the rising of a triad, the setting of a sun, the returning of a shadow and the escaping of a zero. Won't you join us on this audio expedition? 4:05 - The best new old game (Rise of the Triad) 13:20 - The best old new game (Shadowrun Returns) 21:20 - Halftime! 32:10 - The best PC game that could be a mobile game (Race the Sun) 36:50 - The best game that was on PS+ but isn't anymore (Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward) 43:00 - The winner is... Theme song by Ian Dorsch Get the show: Download MP3" Subscribe to the podcast (RSS) Subscribe on iTunes

Well I'll be a monkey's anus. Where your boys feel like they've been led into a glue factory in front of an 8 year-old. These guys are rotten, they're just rotten. Seriously, it's rotten.

Well I'll be darnn - Jimmy again at Martinsville, Denny stays cool, Edheads look out we have Brandon Mudd, Director, Public and Media Relations at Gateway International Raceway, Tony tells us about how his team is improving, As always NASCAR Newscast gets us ready for Texas Motor Speedway