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Come one, come all, to this revolving door of sketch comedy! There'll be piss in your pop-corn, your "woke-ness" will be poke and prodded, and you will definitely see lots of 70's boobies! But most importantly, you will absolutely laugh! Featuring Joe Moubhij: A dear friend of Kyle's, Joe is an electrical engineer by day, and a climate-change denier by night! Just kidding, he's not an idiot If you're a climate-change denier, feel free to EMAIL ME so I can -not- respond!thisisnotfilmschool@gmail.com Music Suggestion:Thin Lips Special Thanks To:Ryan Maguire - For fecking jammin bro (Music)Sarah M. Frye - For fecking drawin bro (Art)Joe Moubhij - For fecking helping with computers bro (IT Advice) And David Zucker, Jerry Zucker, and Jim Abrahams! You guys fought pretty hard to get this movie made, and although the movie itself might not be timeless, it certainly laid the ground for movies that absolutely were, THANK YOU!

This week’s episode is special: we have the former and current Editors-in-Chief of Circulation on Circulation on the Run. Join Dr Amit Khera, Digital Strategies Editor of Circulation, as he speaks with Dr James T. Willerson, Editor-in-Chief from 1993 to 2004; Dr Joseph Loscalzo, Editor-in-Chief from 2004 to 2016; and Dr Joseph A. Hill, the current Editor-in-Chief. They will discuss the history of Circulation and how it continues to evolve. TRANSCRIPT Dr Amit Khera: Hi, this is Amit Khera. I'm digital strategies editor for Circulation from UT Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas. Today we have a very special Circulation on the Run. We have three Editors-in-Chief from Circulation. First, we have Dr James Willerson, who was the Editor-in-Chief from 1993 to 2004. He's a President Emeritus at the Texas Heart Institute. We also have Dr Joseph Loscalzo, who was Editor-in-Chief from 2004 to 2016, the Chairman of Department of Medicine from Brigham and Women's Hospital. And finally, Dr Joseph Hill, the current Editor-in-Chief, the Chief of Cardiology at UT Southwestern Medical Center. Welcome, gentlemen. Dr Joseph Hill: Thank you. Dr James Willerson: Thank you. Dr Joseph Loscalzo: Thank you. Dr Amit Khera: Dr Willerson, I must say, looking over the tenure prior to Dr Loscalzo, you had one of the longest tenures ever as Editor-in-Chief of Circulation, and certainly a lot happened in the practice of cardiology during that period. It was a really formative period in cardiology. As you think back, what were some of the most important topics that you covered during that time as Editor-in-Chief, thinking about the evolution of cardiovascular care and science at that time? Dr James Willerson: You have to remember, there have been many editors at Circulation. We all build on the shoulders of others, certainly I did. I really wanted Circulation to be the premier cardiovascular journal in the world. I wanted it to be much like the New England Journal of Medicine, but the New England Journal of Medicine Circulation of Cardiology. I wanted to publish it every week. We got permission to do that. That wasn't easy, but we were fortunate. I've been accused of wanting to publish it every day. There's actually some truth to that. I didn't make that. I didn't try very hard. I wanted to be able to present the information, important information, to everybody who cared about cardiovascular medicine: physicians, scientists, students, nurses, those who cared for people, and I wanted to do it frequently. I wanted to publish it quickly. So, we had some success with that. There are many other things that are well-known to the other editors, all of whom have built before me and after me, and I'm very proud of them. Dr Amit Khera: Well, thanks for that. And certainly, as you pointed out, this has been an evolution where you took the gauntlet, if you will, from the people before you, and then built on that and had many advances. I guess after you, Dr Loscalzo, you I think did have the longest tenure if I saw of any of the editors and similarly, a lot of evolutions in cardiovascular care and a lot in science, particularly during your time. Tell us a little bit about any particular papers or topics that you focused on, or that really were revolutionary in the cardiovascular space during your tenure. Dr Joseph Loscalzo: I'll pick up where Jim left off and just make the case that as you're suggesting, I mean, there's sort of been a natural transition of the kind of science that Circulation has been publishing over the tenure of the three editors here today. Before Dr Willerson, it was largely physiology and excellent clinical science. Jim really expanded the scope of what Circulation published to begin to put in press in its pages, fairly basic and translational science as well. I picked up from what he'd laid the groundwork for to expand the scope of that science. And as you know, expand it to the point that we had to develop daughter journals that would pick up the mantle in each of these increasingly subspecialized areas. So, it's hard to think about those papers that I found have the greatest impact because every field had several of them in my several years as editor. As you know, the subspecialty journals that we established, which remain active to the current time, are also broad in their scope from outcomes based research to genomics and proteomics insistence, cardiovascular medicine, to everything in between, imaging, intervention, heart failure, and electrophysiology to arrhythmias. Each of these was led, and continues to be led, by outstanding leaders in their subspecialty fields. I think the beauty of Circulation in contrast to even fine journals like the New England Journal of Medicine, is that Circulation has been able to put on its pages those studies that really do span quite a spectrum. We don't shy away from very basic studies. That actually began with Jim, I must say, because that wasn't the case previously. And of course, we move right through to epidemiology and outcomes based research. And the impacts have been broad in each of those fields, as witnessed by the excitement and uptake of the journal, measured however you wish, by impact factor, or citations, or the frequency with which it's referred to in the lay press. So, I think that tradition certainly continues under the current editor with papers of extraordinary impact. Dr Amit Khera: Thanks for that. I think your point about the evolution of science over time from Dr Willerson and certainly during your tenure and beyond to the breadth of Circulation currently. You also touched on the subspecialty journals. That happened in your watch and that was quite a marked change in cardiovascular medicine to have that explosion of new journals, if you will. What do you think the impact of those subspecialty journals has been for the cardiovascular field? Dr Joseph Loscalzo: We struggled with the idea about whether or not we should pursue that kind of fragmentation. What really pushed us was the fact that the acceptance rate remains quite low, in those days, probably eight or so percent range at its nadir. So, we were rejecting a lot of really excellent papers which wound up in competitor journal pages, that we would like to have accepted and been given the scrutiny of the careful reviews and editorials that accompany papers accepted by Circulation. We felt the best way to do that under the circumstances was to create these daughter journals. They succeeded, in many respects, beyond our wildest imagination. The numbers of papers that were published in the family increased, I think in the first two or three years, by at least 2-to 3000. So, that really speaks to the fact that we kept the best papers in the family. We gave them the right kind of audience. Some of these would have been too technical or too highly specialized to have been published in Circulation proper, but certainly of the highest quality and of significant relevance to the subspecialist. So, we think that it was a successful experiment. Now it's sort of become tradition. I think that the question that will always come up, of course, is can we fragment things more? I would say one of the best reasons to make the case that this was a successful experiment is that if imitation's the sincerest form of flattery, the New England Journal is now going to start three subspecialty journals. In fact, in my role now as an editor of the New England Journal, editor-at-large, they asked my input in how to design those daughter journals and what to expect from them. Dr Amit Khera: Well, I think that's a great point. It certainly has been a resounding success and as you pointed out, imitation is the best form of flattery. I'm going to pivot now to Joe Hill. Dr Hill, you have certainly been the beneficiary of all the great work that these two editors have done in the past. You've inherited a very successful journal and also have crafted your own vision for where you want Circulation to go in your mark. Tell us a little bit about some of the new initiatives you've tried to implement, leveraging on these past successes. Dr Joseph Hill: Thank you, Amit, it's an honor and a privilege to be in this conversation, frankly. I mean, Dr Willerson made this a weekly journal. That was back in the day when FedExes were flying around. Everything was paper. That kind of volume with that technology is impressive. And Dr Loscalzo, who has been a friend and mentor for many, many years, spearheaded the subspecialty journals, as we just heard, and took the journal to yet new heights. Each of you has been a pioneer and we've been fortunate to put together a team that I think has moved in exciting directions. We've leveraged technology now, such that we have our video conference meetings. We meet in a video conference with editors from 17 different countries. We have a third of our editors in Dallas, where I live, a third in the US outside of Dallas, and another third in 16 other countries. It turns out we alternate the time of that meeting each week because there's no single hour of the day that works around the globe, so we move it around to capture Asia or to capture California in alternating weeks. That has been a thrill and, honestly, I believe a robust success. We have leaders on the ground in all these different countries. We have a highly diverse team across the different subspecialty domains of cardiology, across different geographic regions, across race and sex and gender lines. It is an amazing team. And Amit, who leads our robust digital efforts, including this podcast and our efforts on social media, again, the opportunity now in the 21st century to take these initiatives forward has been a real privilege. Dr Amit Khera: It's ironic that Circulation was doing Zoom before everybody else was in the modern era. I'm going to pivot back to Dr Willerson. As Dr Hill just mentioned during your tenure how the volume of papers was handled, FedEx and sort of the nature of the journal publishing process. And now in the modern era, we have so much different information. We have a huge volume of journals. We have online, we have Twitter, we have podcasts. We have people that are consuming information in so many different ways. Tell us from your perspective, what's the role of the scientific journal currently and how has it changed at all in the last few decades? Dr James Willerson: It's always going to continue to evolve. It's about as good as it can be right now with Dr Loscalzo and Dr Hill's leadership, and I'm really proud of them. There'll be more. We can't even imagine what it will be in two or three years. Of course, it'll be better and better, faster, almost momentary. Thank you, Dr Hill. Dr Amit Khera: Thank you for that. I think we all look forward to seeing how this evolves more rapid information, rapid turnaround. I'm certain that will change. Dr Hill, you had a comment on that? Dr Joseph Hill: We live in an era now where peer review is under attack in many ways and pre-print journals, blogs and so forth. And one of the things that I've really seen, and we've all seen, is how the peer review process, and we're all authors, right, we live on the other end of that stick, but it really is important. It makes a big difference. And people who are anxious to accelerate that process, I totally get it. We work very hard to do that. At the same time we, following the traditions here, have an intentionally redundant review process where every paper is evaluated by multiple editors and multiple peer reviewers. On a number of occasions, we've avoided a pothole, or we've improved a paper many, many times. And that is something that has really been impressed on me that I think people who aren't on this side of the editorial fence might not appreciate as much. Dr Amit Khera: I think that's an important point about sort of the rigor about the way that articles come out in Circulation. And Dr Loscalzo, maybe as an extension of the last question, what do you see as some of the challenges going forward or opportunities for Circulation? You think about where it's been, but what are some of the things that you look forward to for Circulation in the future and what are some of the things you're concerned about? Dr Joseph Loscalzo: Well, I too am concerned about this issue of peer review being under attack, and I'm particularly concerned about it for papers that have direct clinical impact. A good example of that concern, of course, are papers published, or at least publicly released, on non-peer reviewed websites like the archive sites because of their importance in the COVID epidemic, potentially. We all know of cases of drugs, at least in test tubes, with cultured cells and viruses appear to be effective that have adverse clinical consequences. So that, and more than in any other sphere of science, ensuring that proper peer review from as many perspectives as possible is always a part of the process is absolutely critical for clinical medicine. And to me, the threat that this need for acceleration and rapid peer review poses and the sort of socialization of the transmission of scientific information that we're all interested in doing really has to have the brakes put on it a bit for the clinical science that the journal represents for this very important reason. Not to say we want to slow things down, we want to make sure that the best possible reviews are performed before we release it to the public. I know that, as Joe was pointing out, one of the most exciting parts of the role of when I led the journal was the weekly meeting. We had a face-to-face meeting because all of our associate editors, save one, was actually physically proximate and they could travel to our conference room. But it's a wonderful exercise to have people of very different perspectives, from basic scientists, to clinical electrophysiologists, to outcomes researchers, make comments on papers that were completely outside their sphere. The argument, of course, is if one can write and transmit a thought with the clear intent in a way that's rigorous and logical, that any reasonably bright person with reasonable scientific background should be able to understand it. And often these folks with very different scientific backgrounds have perspectives that very clearly improved the paper when they were acted upon. That's a process that doesn't exist in many other journals, I have to say. And I would encourage Joe, which I know, well, he's doing this because he enjoys it and he recognizes its importance, and Joe's successors continue to do that as well because that will ensure the value of the journal through all of the challenges that it is going to have to face in the next decade or two. Dr Amit Khera: I think that was a great point. We're certainly seeing candy bowl examples of the importance of this rigorous process of the editors looking through it carefully and, as you both mentioned, peer review. Joe Hill, I'm going to let you maybe have the last word. I know how hard the three of you have historically worked on your craft for the journal, how much effort you've put in, but I also know it's quite a rewarding job. What would you see as the best part of being Editor-in-Chief of Circulation? Dr Joseph Hill: Oh my, I'm learning something every day. I've been on about a steep a learning curve as when I was an intern at Dr Loscalzo's hospital long ago. Under Dr Willerson's term, I imagine many, many studies came in on acute coronary syndromes and thrombolytic therapy, primary PCI, antiarrhythmic drugs. We haven't seen an antiarrhythmic drug paper except for a recent review we did, but for quite a long time. It's artificial intelligence, it's big data, it's the UK Biobank, it's Omix, it's incredibly sophisticated genetics and genomics and basic science with genetic manipulations, IPS cells. It's a very different world now than it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago and it certainly will be again, 10 and 20 years down the road. We are now approaching, I will say, 600 COVID related papers, and they're still coming in at a record pace. The world has changed. As I said before, this is the 70th anniversary of this storied journal. And it is truly my honor to be able to stand on the shoulders of Doctors Loscalzo and Willerson. Dr Amit Khera: Thank you. I think that's a great way to end this podcast and congratulations on the 70th anniversary. It truly has been a privilege to chat with the three of you today. I want to thank you not only for what you've done for Circulation, but for the field of cardiovascular medicine. This is Amit Khera, digital strategies editor for Circulation. Next week we're back to our usual podcast with Carolyn Lam and Greg Hundley. Take care. Dr Greg Hundley: This program is copyright the American Heart Association, 2020.  

SONGS The Ren Faire Song performed by The Musical Blades from the album Up the Ante https://www.musicalblades.com I'll Tell My Ma performed by Tullamore from the album The O'Malley's Sessions - One for the Road https://www.tullamore.band/home Lord of the PounceWhere's the Cat! performed by Marc Gunn from the album Irish Drinking Songs for Cat Lovers www.marcgunn.com Beggars to God performed by Jesse Linder from the album Easy & Free http://www.JesseLinder.Bandcamp.com Cyrus In The Moonlight performed by Empty Hats from the album The Hat Came Back https://www.emptyhats.com When I Was A Young Maid performed by Tania Opland and Mike Freeman from the album Choice Fare Unknown Website The Voyage performed by Terry Griffith from the album Songs From the Pub https://www.facebook.com/terry.l.griffith.1 O'neill's March performed by Pictus from the album Fire https://pictusmusic.com Mingulay Boat Song performed by Bounding Main from the album Fish Out of Water http://www.boundingmain.com Skillywidden performed by Cantiga from the album Martha's Dragon http://www.cantigamusic.com/ Dark Lady performed by Far From Home from the album Of Course! https://www.facebook.com/WeRFarFromHome/ Exiles Of Erin performed by Compilations from the album Songs from the Village of Carlisle Unknown Website HOW TO LISTEN Apple (podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/renaissance-festival-podcast/id74073024) Spotify (spotify.com/artist/0UcBe1IGWeIQ4y22y3bWgi) Pandora (www.pandora.com/) Podbay (www.podbay.fm/show/74073024) Listennotes (www.listennotes.com/podcasts/renaissance-festival-podcast-minions-1Xd3YjQ7fWx/) HOW TO CONTACT US Post it on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/renfestmusic) Email us at renfestpodcast@gmail.com Call or text the castle at 478- castles (227-8537) SONG LYRICS The Ren Faire Song performed by The Musical Blades from the album Up the Ante https://www.musicalblades.com Step right up and come inside,  To a world of make believe, Of shiny knights and maidens fair, You'll never want to leave,  Be sure to buy your wooden sword,  For fourteen ninety five,And grab a handful of the King's nuts,As soon as you arrive, Cause fantasy's just a step away, And nothing doth compare Cause you'll see your life in a different way, Through the lens of ye olde ren faire   HUZZAH! We've got all the kilted Shrek sounding men, And the fairies ya need, We've got all the elves and the gypsy boys, And we've got a sample of mead, Step up and test your balance and strength, And be sure to jump on all the rides,  It's amazing the things you can get on a stick,And all the things that you can get fried, Cause fantasy's just a step away, And nothing doth compare Cause you'll see your life in a different way, Through the lens of ye olde ren faire  HUZZAH! You'll find fire eaters and jugglers here,You'll find Kings and their Queens too,You'll see wizards and warriors and Star Wars dweebsAnd a singing pirate crew, We've got clothes, we've got armor, We've got turkey legsJust waiting here for you, And you can use your Master Card, Or Lady Visa too... Cause fantasy's just a step away, And nothing doth compare Cause you'll see your life in a different way, Through the lens of ye olde ren faire  HUZZAH!  I'll Tell My Ma performed by Tullamore from the album The O'Malley's Sessions - One for the Road https://www.tullamore.band/home I'll Tell My Ma I'll tell my ma when I get home, The boys won't leave the girls alone They pull my hair and stole my comb But that's all right till I go home She is handsome, she is pretty, She is the Belle of Belfast city She is a courtin' one, two, three, Please won't you tell me who is she Albert Mooney says he loves her, All the boys are fightin' for her Knock at the door and ring at the bell, Saying oh my true love, are you well Out she comes as white as snow, Rrings on her fingers, bells on her toes Ould Johnny Morrissey says she'll die If she doesn't get the fella with the roving eye Let the wind and the rain and the hail blow high And the snow come travellin' through the sky She's as sweet as apple pie, She'll get her own lad by and by When she gets a lad of her own She won't tell her ma when she gets home Let them all come as they will For it's Albert Mooney she loves still" Lord of the PounceWhere's the Cat! performed by Marc Gunn from the album Irish Drinking Songs for Cat Lovers www.marcgunn.com I pounced in the morning when the world was begun. I pounced on the moon and the stars all for fun. I leaped down from heaven, and I pounced on the earth. When I pounced my first mouse, I had my birth. Pounce, pounce, wherever you may be I am lord of the pounce, said he. I'll run under feet, wherever you may be. And I'll leap on you in the pounce, said he. I pounced on the papyrus of the Egyptians They wouldn't play so I stole their feather pens I pounced on the fish caught by James and John They fed me fish then the pounce went on. I pounced on the Sabbath, rubbed my head against the lame. Many people shook their head, said this feline was insane. I may rest from pouncing, do not think I am gone. For I just saw a rat, so the pounce goes on. I and my lady meowed a song across the plain The birds came down, and we pounced on each of them. On the bedchamber floor, I laid my carrion. Then I raced out the door and I pounced again. I dog jumped down, so I leapt up high. I have nine lives that will never, never die. I'll pounce on you though you bark at me I am the Lord of the Pounce, said he. Beggars to God performed by Jesse Linder from the album Easy & Free http://www.JesseLinder.Bandcamp.com The song of gypsy Davy rang delighted through the night, A wise and foolish virgin kept her candles burning bright, Rise up, my young and foolish one, and follow if you can, There'll be no need for hot candles in the arms of such a man. Make love to each other; be free with each other, Be prisoners of love 'til you lie in the sod, Be friends to each other, forgive one another, See God in each other, be beggars to God. The night was cold and dark and wet as they wandered on alone, The sky became their canopy, the earth became their throne, And as their raiment ran to rags, they thought it nothing wrong, For earth and sky are robe enough, when you sing the gypsy song. Make love to each other; be free with each other, Be prisoners of love 'til you lie in the sod, Be friends to each other, forgive one another, See God in each other, be beggars to God. They sang and played the gypsy song wherever they were sent, To some, it seemed a dancing tune; to some, a sad lament, But in every heart that heard it true, a tear became a smile, And a pauper or a prince became a gypsy for a while. Make love to each other; be free with each other, Be prisoners of love 'til you lie in the sod, Be friends to each other, forgive one another, See God in each other, be beggars to God.   Cyrus In The Moonlight performed by Empty Hats from the album The Hat Came Back https://www.emptyhats.com Oh the hills are full of spirits And they walk when night comes round And they speak to who they choose to When the moon is shining down And ramona loves the orchard And liza loves the pine And cyrus in the moonlight Loves the flowing of the wineOh cyrus trusts the spirits And they fill his life with grace Yeah the father of his fathers Passed him down the gift of faith And one night you might hear it Like a wailing from above It's just cyrus in the moonlight Singing to the one he loves...And the two girls start to dancing When they hear that drunken voice That's when cyrus asks the moonlight Do I have to make a choice 'tween liza with her red hair And ramona with her blues And with all these gifts they bring me Tell me how can I refuse Related When I Was A Young Maid performed by Tania Opland and Mike Freeman from the album Choice Fare When I was a young maid, about seventeen I enlisted in the Navy for to serve the Queen. I enlisted in the Navy, a sailor lad to stand, For to hear the cannons rattlin' and the music so grand. The music so grand, the music so grand. For to hear the cannons rattlin' and the music so grand. Well the officer who enlisted me was a fine and handsome man. He said, ""You'll make a sailor, so come along me lad."" Well, me waist being tall and slender and my fingers long and thin, Oh the very soon they learned me I soon exceeded them. I soon exceeded them, I soon exceeded them. Oh the very soon they learned me I soon exceeded them. They sent me to bunk and they sent me to bed For to lie with the sailor lads I never was afraid But in buttoning up me blue coat, it often made me smile For to think I was a sailor and a maiden all the while. A maiden all the while, a maiden all the while. For to think I was a sailor and a maiden all the while. They sent me to London to guard the tower And I swore that I would be there until my dying hour But a lady fell in love with me and I told her I was a maid. She went up to my captain and my secret she betrayed. My secret she betrayed, my secret she betrayed. She went up to my captain and my secret she betrayed. Well the captain, he came up to me and he asked if it were so. I dared not, I dared not, I dared not say no. "It's a pity we should lose you, such a sailor lad you made, It's a pity we should lose you, such a handsome young maid." A handsome young maid, a handsome young maid. It's a pity we should lose you, such a handsome young maid. So fare you well my captain, you've been so kind to me. "And likewise, my sailor lads, I'm sorry to part with thee." But if ever the Navy needs a lad, a sailor I'll remain. I'll put off my cap and feathers and I'll run the riggin' again! I'll run the riggin' again, I'll run the riggin' again. I'll put off my cap and feathers and I'll run the riggin' again!"   The Voyage performed by Terry Griffith from the album Songs From the Pub https://www.facebook.com/terry.l.griffith.1 I am a sailor, you're my first mate We signed on together, we coupled our fate Hauled up our anchor, determined not to fail For the hearts treasure, together we set sail With no maps to guide us we steered our own course Rode out the storms when the winds were gale force Sat out the doldrums in patience and hope Working together we learned how to cope Life is an ocean and love is a boat In troubled water that keeps us afloat When we started the voyage, there was just me and you Now gathered round us, we have our own crew Together we're in this relationship We built it with care to last the whole trip Our true destination's not marked on any charts We're navigating to the shores of the heart Life is an ocean and love is a boat In troubled water that keeps us afloat When we started the voyage, there was just me and you Now gathered round us, we have our own crew Life is an ocean and love is a boat In troubled water that keeps us afloat When we started the voyage, there was just me and you Now gathered round us, we have our own crew   O'neill's March performed by Pictus from the album Fire https://pictusmusic.com (instrumental)" Mingulay Boat Song performed by Bounding Main from the album Fish Out of Water http://www.boundingmain.com Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Heave her head round to the weather Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Sailing homeward to Mingulay What care we though white the Minch is What care we boys the wind and weather When we know that, every inch is Closer homeward to Mingulay Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Heave her head round to the weather Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Sailing homeward to Mingulay Wives are waiting by the pierhead Gazing seaward from the heather Heave ahead round and we'll anchor Ere the sun sets on Mingulay Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Heave her head round to the weather Heel ya ho, boys, let her go, boys Sailing homeward to Mingulay Sailing homeward to Mingulay Skillywidden performed by Cantiga from the album Martha's Dragon http://www.cantigamusic.com/ Unknown Dark Lady performed by Far From Home from the album Of Course! https://www.facebook.com/WeRFarFromHome/ A fierce one-eyed man named Baron LaBonne A meaner pirate had never been known And he sailed on the Dark Lady A ship strong and sound with a perilous crew And high on the mast the skull and bones flew Fleet and swift was the Dark Lady And every night the Baron would drink a toast He'd say, ""Here's to our lovely lady host! My one true love"" ""Hear, hear!"" the crew replied And the Dark Lady sighed A rich Spanish galleon was spotted one night The Dark Lady's crew prepared for the fight Clash of swords.... No Spaniards survived it Except for the maiden with dark eyes so bold Found in the hull with the jewels and the gold LaBonne laughed and took her for ranson And every night the Baron would drink a toast He'd say, ""Here's to our lovely lady host! My one true love"" ""Hear, hear!"" the crew replied And the Dark Lady sighed The girl Carlotta was a beauty quite rare With each passing night LaBonne couldn't bear His empty bed... He brought her to it The Baron soon found he felt more than desire His love for her grew and his heart filled with fire He proclaimed that they would marry The night the Baron drank with jubilee He said, ""Here's to my lovely bride-to-be! My one true love"" ""Hear, hear !"" the crew replied And the Dark Lady cried The following night and storm brewed at sea The Dark Lady saw her chance to be free Of her rival, the beauty Carlotta The ship steered her south to the heart of the gale Where a wave swept the maiden out over the rail Sweet revenge on an unfaithful lover That night the Lady drank a toast She said, ""Here's to your lovely lady host! Your one true love""... No voices replied And the Dark Lady smiled And now every night when a storm fills the sky They say that a ghost ship sails in its eye Fleet and swift is the Dark Lady A ship strong and sound with a perilous crew And high on the mast the skull and bones flew While the Captain gazes out to sea And every night the Baron must drink a toast And say, ""Here's to our lovely lady host My one true love"" ""Hear, hear!"" the ghost crew replies And the Dark Lady smiles Exiles Of Erin performed by Compilations from the album Songs from the Village of Carlisle Unknown Website There came to the beach a poor exile of Erin, The dew on his robe was heavy and chilly; For his country he sighed when, at twilight, repairing To wander alone by the wind-beaten kill. But the day-star attracted his eye's sad devotion, For it rose on its own native isle of the ocean. Where once, in the flow of his youthful emotion, he sang the bold anthem of Erin-go-bragh. Oh! sad is my fate, said the heart-broken stranger, The wild deer and wolf to a covert can flee; But I have no refuge from famine or danger, A home and a country remains not for me. Ah! never again in the green shady bower, Where my forefathers lived, shall I spend the sweet hours, Or cover my harp with the wild-woven flowers, And strike the sweet numbers of Erin-go-bragh. Oh! Erin, my country, though sad and forsaken, In dreams I revisit thy sea-beaten shore; But, alas! in a far foreign land I awaken, And sigh for the friends that can meet me no more. And thou, cruel fate, wilt thou never replace me In a mansion of peace, where no perils can chase me? Ah! never again shall my brothers embrace me- They died to defend me, or live to deplore. Where now is my cabin-door, so fast by the wildwood? Sisters and sire did weep for its fall; Where is the mother that looked on my childhood? And where is my bosom friend -dearer than all? Ah! my sad soul, long abandoned by pleasure, Why did it dote on a fast-fading treasure? Tears, like the rain, may fall without measure, But rapture and beauty they cannot recall. But yet all its fond recollections suppressing, One dying wish my fond bosom shall draw; Erin, an exile, bequeaths thee his blessings, Land of my fathers, Erin-go-bragh. Buried and cold, when my heart stills its motion. Green be thy fields, sweetest isle in the ocean, ? And the harp-striking bards sing aloud with devotion, Erin Mavourneen, sweet Erin-go-bragh.

On June 18, 2020, the ACEC Research Institute held the first of a series of panel discussions on the future of engineering.  The topic covered by the panelists was the "Impact of Technology on Engineering."  Panelists included:• Jose Luis Blanco, Partner, McKinsey & Company• Mike Haley, Vice President of Research, Autodesk, Inc.• Chris Luebkeman, Director for Strategic Foresight, Office of the President, ETH Zurich• Heather Wishart-Smith, SVP Technology and Innovation, Jacobs• Moderator: Joseph Bates, ACEC Research InstituteA full video of the roundtable can be viewed here. Transcript:Daphne Bryant :Behalf of the ACEC Research Institute's, board of directors. Welcome to our first round table and the series, the future of engineering, a big thank you to our donors who have made this session possible. We have a great group of thought leaders, as you can see here today that will share their insights and expertise with us on the impact of technology on engineering without further ado. It's my pleasure to introduce two of my colleagues from the ACEC research Institute, Joe Bates, who will serve as our moderator today and Kevin McMahon, who will be monitoring the chat box and fielding your questions during the session, Joe, it's all yours.Joseph Bates:Thanks very much Daphne, and thank you everybody for joining today's round table. Before we get started with our questions, I'd like to introduce each of our panelists for the webinar. Today. First we have Jose Luis Blanco. He's a partner at McKinsey & Company Jose leads, McKinsey's engineering, construction, building materials and construction technology work in North America. And as a leader of its retail real estate practice, he brings deep expertise in optimizing performance and unlocking value through embedding digital capabilities and deploying and scaling up new technologies. We also have Mike Haley, vice president of research at Autodesk. Mike leads a team of researchers, engineers, and specialists to explore the future of how people design and make things. A primary focus of his team, is automation and leveraging technologies and disciplines that include machine learning, robotics, human, computer interaction, geometry, and visible visualization. Next, we have Chris Luebkeman. He's the director of strategic foresight at office of the president with ETH Zurich.Joseph Bates:Chris has a multidisciplinary education, including geology, civil engineering, structural engineering, entrepreneurship, and a doctorate in architecture. And he is deeply passionate about curating, constructive dialogue, insatiably curious. He relishes the opportunity to discover the opportunities which will be created by change, and perhaps most importantly, to evolve position solutions to the profound positive solutions to the profound challenges we face today. And last but not least, we have Heather Wishart-Smith. She's SVP of technology and innovation at Jacobs. Heather is a registered professional engineer and certified project management professional with proven, experience managing large design programs and developing, managing, and turning around troubled offices and the architectural engineering professional services market. And also Heather is a fellow of S A M E and she is currently the president elect for the 2020, 2021 Centennial year. Thank you all of our panelists for joining us today. I'd first like to start out with a question fairly broad one for each of you to start out with, and I'm going to ask Mike to start us with this based on your individual perspectives, as you look at the engineering industry, what are the one or two biggest impacts that technology will have on the industry in the future, say in the next five to seven years, for instance, will, will things be going faster? We'll be doing things in a different place,uwhat what's going to happen, Mike?Mike Haley:Thanks, Joe. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it is a broad question. There's two things, main things that come to mind for me. So the first one relates to systems and, you know, I think as we all know engineering anything in the world today and especially buildings is all about resolving the various forces that are acting between the systems and systems might be the relationship between the architecture of the building, the structure of the building NDP systems. It could be the relationship between the materials and the methods of production of the building and the sustainability of the environment. It could be the relationship between the people that are ultimately going to be in the building. And today in most practices, we don't have a way of resolving all of those tensions all the time because systems are inherently very complex and they're always changing. So the industries rely on rules of thumb, established practices, standards, these kinds of things.Mike Haley:And I can see that changing in the future. We're beginning to have the ability to automate the understanding of systems and be able to bring those insights and that guidance to engineers and designers in that process. So that's my one aspect that then leads to the second one, Joe, which is that with all of this automation and your question about, you know, you know, do, do we, are we going to need more engineers or are we going to need less engineers? What's the nature of the job market? I actually believe we're going to need more. And the reason I believe you're going to need more is I actually think we're opening up the world to greater possibilities right now with these tools. And that is going to lead to the next, my second point, which relates to knowledge and education. And I think as we build automation systems that understand and learn the patterns, we don't just use that knowledge to automate and make the machine do things, but we can use that knowledge to upskill people. We can train people more easily in using tools and using techniques. We can raise the sea level for lots of people at the same time with technology. So I see that as a sort of a commencement great trend that we're going to see in the coming years.Joseph Bates:Great. let's, let's go over to Chris. Chris, what do you think?Chris Luebkeman:So I, I totally agree with everything Mike just said, and I want to amplify a couple of points. I think there's three things. We're going to see expansion, acceleration and consolidation. As Mike said, an expansion of what we can do and expansion of toolsets and expansion of knowhow and expansion of what we're going to be asked to do. I think there's the acceleration, there's going to be, we're, we're suffering from this already when we like to complain about not enough time to even think anymore, we just have to do do do, and frankly, that's not going to stop. And so therefore these tools are going to help us. I hope and these techniques and our, and our teaming will help us deal with that acceleration. And the last is consolidation. I think we've seen over the past 10, 20 years, an industry wide consolidation, especially in the built environment.Chris Luebkeman:And I believe frankly, that will continue, but I also believe we come back to the first one, it's going to lead to an expansion because as we have the consolidation and either, so this core, core, core core, all of a sudden, there's going to be the realization. We need these new typepology, these specialists who can really focus on, for example, getting our, our third world infrastructure back up to what it needs to be in order to to regain our, our, you know, a position of pride and the other parts of this sort of this other is a consolidation of knowledge. I really think that we're going to be able to acquire and that it's not consolidation by what's there, but how we get it. Right. So we're going to be able to in a much easier way, consolidate know how consolidate knowledge in a much more rapid way. So those are my three words. Great. Jose, what about you?Jose Luis Blanco:Like how Chris frame it in three specific like you know, sentences or, or, or, or things? Let me try to do the same. I think that for me, the three things that I believe what I would love to see going forward, given what we see in technology is more transparency first. Second, being more output outcome driven. And the third one is actually much more collaborative environment. Let me try to just give you 15 seconds for me to one the transparency of think it's clear, but I think it's, I think right now we're capturing data. Not only we capturing data, we're storing data in a much more way that is going to be, we're going to be able to actually analyze that data and provide like, you know, transparencies and some traditional issues we always have a, in the construction industry and Jane construction English, okay.Jose Luis Blanco:Who made that change? What happened? What was the implication? So I think that that's going to be a huge unlock for us, and we wouldn't have a lot of noise that is always around our industry and to move forward. The second one is outcome driven. It's also tied to the first one. I think if we have more data, we have more transparency and then we're going to be able to actually you know, our designs are going to be much more outcome driven is going to be able to provide better service to our owners. I mean, I'm sure Mike and his team are working on Gera design, like crazy these days. And that for me is critical because it's going to be able to fully actually capture what the client needs and actually tell them, like, here are the choices for you, depending on the outcomes you're trying to achieve.Jose Luis Blanco:And the third one, which is the collaborative point, I think is much more than just breaking silos because we're going to have much more transparency. It's like for me, going back to Chris' point about knowledge, is really unleashing like the potential talent of fully the potential of like a group of engineers working together, right. Removing all the constraints that we need to do right now being tying like the King of silos and many other things. So these three things : transparency, outcome driven and collaborations is the things I expect and hope to see in the future there.Joseph Bates:Heather why don't you round us out here with your thoughts on this subject.Heather Wishart-Smith:Sure, so I think that my thoughts on this are really quite frankly, complimentary to what the gentlemen have mentioned. The first really that I would focus on is the interconnectivity of systems. So I've mentioned since, but that interconnectivity and disciplines, and then also the technical workforce. With regard to the interconnectivity of systems, you look at the interconnectivity of society we're coming out of the pandemic, the future of cities the urbanization, everything is going to need to rely on techno technology to really meet that exponential growth and the exponential growth of mega cities. So as was mentioned earlier, this will provide more opportunities for engineers to get involved, to leverage that kind of technology. And, you know, Jose mentioned silos. With that, I mean, I really think that those who are most successful in the technology enabled world will be those who are able to break down those silos and cut across disciplines.Heather Wishart-Smith:So much of what we do in innovation is rather than just say creating something in one discipline and then kind of throwing it over the transom for the next discipline and the next discipline; cutting across, and co-creating across disciplines in order to increase that speed to market. But then the workforce is that second aspect. You know, of course there's so many statistics out there about the U.S. In particular, not graduating enough STEM graduates, and of course it's about more than just graduating them. We need to retain them once they come into the workforce in order to remain competitive. But we also need to recognize the value of the trades, particularly as the trades become increasingly complex, as we bring IOT into operations and maintenance and all of that. So I think sometimes it's tempting to view technology as kind of a way out of not graduating enough STEM graduates, but it's, it's, it's really going to cause the need for even more of those graduates.Heather Wishart-Smith:They need to, you know, they need to have the skillset to design a program that operates and maintain all the technologies that we think will help, you know, get us out of, out of the, the brain drain if you will. But that, that workforce, it needs to be nimble, adaptable needs to be committed to lifelong learning. And finally, I think it's critically important that that workforce be inclusive and diverse. It's not just the right thing to do. It's been proven by study after study that inclusive and diverse companies and organizations perform better. It allows us as an industry to just really cast the widest net to draw the widest possible pool of candidates, to get as many STEM professionals as we can. And it's really once you that critical mass of diversity, that's when you can get the most benefit from diversity of thought.Joseph Bates:So, Heather, I think you've provided a great segue into the next section of questions here that I wanted to ask about. And that's about the increasing speed of design and how that impacts projects and delivery. And in particular, are there generational issues that we need to consider here are our younger people that are graduating more adept with the technology that is out there, or, you know, what, what are your thoughts on this?Heather Wishart-Smith:So because the people who are graduating today are digital natives. I think it's, you know, very often tempting to fall into that unconscious bias that people who are have more time in their career might not be as willing or able to change. But I have found and worked with so many people who were at the latter end of their career, who really do fully embrace that technology and innovation. So I mentioned earlier being nimble, being adaptable, having that commitment to lifelong learning, it's really about that mindset. And I think it's also important to be open, to taking on say a reverse mentor. Yes, we absolutely need to be learning from, from younger people. We need to provide better pathways to promotion and success. We, we shouldn't in any way be writing off due to our unconscious bias, any kind of you know, whole groups of people, right.Heather Wishart-Smith:I, I'd also add that, you know, not all technologies innovation, not all innovation involves technology. Some of the best innovations we have are those that have nothing to do with technology. It's really innovation in my mind is about how you approach problem solving, constantly asking what is the problem that we're trying to solve. So automation, of course, you know, we all know it should be harnessed to reduce repetitive tasks. And oftentimes also more higher risk operations to get people out of harm's way we should be using it for rapid auctioneering. We all know about, you know, generating just infinite possibilities, filtering them down to make sure that we're presenting to our clients what's best for them. Gone are the days where we show up at the [inaudible] with just, you know, possibilities. So we have a lot more to offer it's design attitude approach rather than the decision attitude approach, because you know, of course, decision attitude is assuming that all the, you know, the good options are out there. It's just a matter of deciding which one is best, but as we move into more automation, I really think it's important to take the design attitude approach to come up with the best alternatives. And then after that, the decision will be much easier.Mike Haley:Yeah. I'll answer that a little bit. What had I say that, you know, what, what we've found with the, with the newer generations, the digital natives, as you put it, Heather, is that there's a different expectation about the time to productivity you know, the traditional tools, certainly that we've been building were things that required a long time to become proficient. You had to study them, you had to learn them, you to learn the features you had to, there was a period of learning that was required. And there's, there's a level of expectation now about digital natives that they can pick up a tool and be productive immediately. So there's this relationship between learning and being productive, I think, is going to change. It is we're not ever going to have a world where you learn first and after I think, period, the time you become productive, the two are going to be much more intertwined.Kevin McMahon:I've got a question from the audience, one of the audience members wants to know in the future because of the varied nature and multidisciplinary skills that are going to be needed, that all the panels have mentioned, will, graduates be coming out of school with a more varied skillset - majors in civil, but perhaps minors in mechanical and electrical, for instance.Heather Wishart-Smith:Yeah. So I'll address that. I would even great question and I would even take it one step further, not just minors in mechanical and electrical, but in programming, in robotics, in all kinds of different disciplines that might not have been considered as related say to civil engineering as in the past. But the challenge for us in the industry is to make use of them. I think the risk is really there where you get the bright eyed, bushy tail, new graduates, and they come in and you're really attracted to them because they have the programming skills, they have the robotics background, they've done all kinds of three D printing. And then we sit them behind a computer and tell them to design things the same way that we've been doing it for decades. And we run the risk of burning them out of just really disenfranchising them. So we can't just be attracted to them. We need to recognize that we need to continue to foster that and cycle them through different opportunities and then listen to them when they come up with a way to challenge the status quo.Jose Luis Blanco:I think what Heather just said is super important. And I think that there's, if I may add one, another point is I think there's a very thin balance between and technology needs to help us with that between actually ensuring the that we maintain the knowhow that has been billed by the, I will call the older generation so to speak. I mean, we know that 30 or 40% of the workforce is going to retire over the next 10 to 15 years. So I think technology needs to allows us to capture that kind of knowhow making institutional and at the same time, without the same time, you know, and now we're allowing or empowering the new generation to do new things and doing them right. Right. So for me, that's a little bit of like [inaudible] out the new generation to do things differently, not the same way I've been down before that, for me, it's like what you actually make magic happen.Chris Luebkeman:So excuse me, I'd like to build on that as well. Yes. And first to the graduates, and then to what Jose was just saying, I think the question Kevin was a little bit in my mind too limited. Saying gonna major in civil and mechanical, I would much rather say, well, how about civil and philosophy or civil and biomedical or bio or, or, or some earth sciences or something that's actually, I think what we're hoping to see is actually a mix of the hard - the decision sciences with the natural sciences, because the challenges which we require, I think as a society are not just those who are trained how to make a decision, but as Heather was saying, the profound impact of a systems understanding and the need for us to understand more and more about how the elements within their systems sometimes need to be sub-optimized so that the system is optimized. And I think this is one thing. And the second point to build on what Jose was saying is I, totally agree with that. And we have to figure out how to make real lifelong learning, not just continuing education credits, which you go to some lunchtime lecture, which we all do and get a stamp and say, Oh boy, that was good. Thank you very much. But actually to real meaningful, lifelong learning and how I, and I, frankly, I don't know exactly what that means at this point, but I do know we're all recognizing that due to the, due to the rate of change, both professional, informational knowledge, that we need to find better ways to foster, to empower and encourage real lifelong learning and lifelong curiosity to learn. And I think that those are the two aspects there, which are not hand in hand, but in North self evident, but very, very critical for us.Kevin McMahon:Joe, we have one very interesting question then I'll let you ask the next question to the panelists. The question is with the super evolvement of technology to the panel is see that where most of the work is still procured locally and performed locally. Do they see a future where the local office, where the client is maybe just a small nub or collaboration, and then the bulk overwhelming bulk of the work is done around the globe or, or outside that core local office. Do they see that future happening in the next five to seven years?Mike Haley:I will. I'll say we're, we're beginning to see that happening already. I don't think it's a, I think it's, it's a growing trend. You know, technology is enabled and enabler of it. So as the economy, so it's society, right? All at the same time, we're seeing the shift of cloud adoption. People storing the data in centralized locations that can access it from everywhere. The days of having it on the server, inside your company, and only being able to use it. They're pretty long gone for a lot of companies. I think the gig economy, the notion of being able to hold down multiple contract jobs at the same time, switch between things, manage your workload, manage your life is a reality for a larger, larger number of people year over year. And then I, I just think that the borders are breaking down in terms of how we think about the world. And I think just because you live in another side of the world, you can think about problems elsewhere in the world, quite easily. You have access to that information.Heather Wishart-Smith:And I'll add to that. We've actually been doing this for years. It started out, I looked back in my career when I was, you know, managing programs. It started to become of course necessary when you needed to bring in a specialist who you wouldn't expect to have in the local office, but it really has evolved to the point where it's just a normal part of how we do things these days. And I think it will just continue to evolve. And that's a little bit different. I come from a very large firm,uand the smaller firms probably it's not as necessary, but it it's absolutely being done. And in addition to the technology and adoption of cloud, as Mike said, also,uvirtual and augmented reality has helped to facilitate that as well. And it also means,uless travel for some of our staff. So that's better from a work life balance perspective.Chris Luebkeman:To me, I agree with both, both of those, again, strange, but to me it's all about access. Now, at the end of the day, you used to not have access to first-class knowledge unless you were in a center. Now we right now are in two different continents at seven different time zones, and yet we're all accessing each other at this moment and the other, almost 300 people. And so it's it's access. And so it's access to knowledge, but it's also access to the marketplace. So I've been for the past five, 10 years, really, really encouraging the integration of small local offices, because at the end of the day, we know with the global move towards segregation. So national segregation and regional segregation, this is, this is going to continue. And so the local offices are going to become key to be networked and to create a new kind of network, which is trans-regional as, as the, you know, globalization screeches to a halt. I think this is, this is going to be a new reality, which we have to really look at. How can we make sure that the small local office can really provide the most excellent world-class delivery. And I, and I think that at the same time, we will still be, the big firms will still work globally and the Jacobs, the ARUPS, and all these they'll be able to flip work around the, around the world and continue doing that.Joseph Bates:Great. So I want to move on to the next section and I'm going to have Jose - I'd like to direct you then to start out with you on this one. There's a lot of buzzwords today in technology such as digital twins, data analytics, machine learning, and artificial intelligence. I'd like to talk about, first of all, what are the terms actually mean? And secondly, how will they actually affect the industry in the future? So maybe Jose, if you want to start out with one of these areas and kick us off.Jose Luis Blanco:Yeah. So a couple of reactions here. I think there's definitely a lot of buzzwords going on. And I think that I would like to separate the reason for that is because I think people sometimes actually confuse you know, technologies that aren't available or venture capitalists sounding, right, or that money is flowing to actually develop reinvestigate versus technologies that are really being adopted, whereas having mass adoption. So we'll make that distinction in the beginning of it. Right. So it's just been, you know, two or three or four, what you say is like, really, if I think about technologists, for instance, that are already impacting the way we work, obviously there's analytics that actually are being applied or advanced analytics are being applied on the field for early flags for projects. How do you explain, or the main factors that explain what a project can turn profitable non-profitable so you can, you can do a reduction analysis to actually do that, and even just forecast that you can definitely do it, you know, analysis of bidding and bidding factors, or even you can apply it to other electronic design for instance, right.Jose Luis Blanco:Which is starting to be widely used. Right. So there's things that are already happened, right. When you think about some of the things that may happen in the future, or maybe starting to happen, but not fully implemented, that's when you start entering like a world of lack of potential digital twinning, construction, or potential, like, you know, artificial intelligence where we actually fully explain, I don't think we're doing artificial intelligence in construction, per se right now, I think we're starting to do machine learning. And actually my, my actually disagree with that. I'm not, but actually that is a little bit like how we see. So I think the big, important thing for me is like all these technologies we're exploring and what should we be talking about all of that. Right. And, you know, venture capital is funding as soon as you get amount of them. And we're seeing a lot of them, the ones that actually read being adopted, I wouldn't say that at scale, they started to be adopted as a sizable pattern actually are much limited. I mean, they made it to analytics and we made it too, obviously maybe generated the design, some machine learning applications from project planning in advance.Jose Luis Blanco:[Inaudible] ....some Of that is implemented. I just want to hold on. When you say digital twin, the sec for various specific kind of use cases or a specific like areas who still are like ha a little bit like far away from a fully functioning digital twin, we understand in aeronautics to where we understand, you know, their industrial processes. Anyway, that's my perspective.Mike Haley:Yeah. I, I think Jose I makes a great point about, you know, I think of it as the hype cycle, right? And the reality is all technology goes through a hype cycle and terms like artificial intelligence, machine learning are, are hype terms. Now we deeply believe in artificial intelligence and machine learning and digital twins, but they have to be ready to Joe's point. One of the things I would add is I, you know, I think the things that are real today, like you said, are our analytics computational methods. You mentioned that Heather as well, the ability to explore alternatives, I think that's becoming a fairly robust capability today. When we start coming back to that systems aspect of things that we were talking about earlier, that's where it starts becoming complicated. And I think this is a big role where machine learning can actually play.Mike Haley:If we are to build - digital twins, I've also been around for actually quite a long time. And as you said in other industries too, but the difference is the future to have to understand the system. If they don't understand the systems, they're not correctly reflecting the situation and you're not going to be able to optimize your solutions correctly. The only way I believe you're going to be able to make correctly representative digital twins in the future is through sampling. The world is through measuring the data, learning from that data, generalizing those patterns, and then placing them within that digital twin. And then you, then you leverage that digital twin to optimize your designs and look for alternatives. But that's a pot. That's a path we're on. We're not there yet today.Chris Luebkeman:I think one of the interesting things with all of those is, as you said, Joe there's, there are buzzwords and there are many different interpretations. We can look at them with starry eyes and say, you know, I can't wait to do a digital twin and others get terrified of the thinking of the matrix coming down upon us. But as you've asked, I think it's, as we're talking. It's really critical that every firm, it makes the effort to learn about them. Both the potential as is implied by the technology tool makers, but also from those like Jose or Heather, or my other colleagues about what we're seeing is little small implementations that are showing success. So some of the data analytics for mobility and how that's able to really begin through the digital twinning of mobile networks and, and train systems of our airline systems actually to say, ah, okay, well maybe that works there.Chris Luebkeman:Maybe I could work on our proposals for this project, if we could try something. You know, I think so for me, the key with the buzzword is that our firms are prototyping a little bit and they're having a person or two who they give a freedom. What say one degree of one degree of freedom to try this. So that when the, when the client, the project, the tools are all right, that we're ready and it doesn't take yet another three years of ramping up to figure out what the heck it is. And I think that's, that's my 2 cents on that.Heather Wishart-Smith:Yeah. Joe, I can give a couple of very specific applications if you're interested. Yeah, yeah, sure. So starting with digital twins on water treatment and industrial water plants. So we've got a tool called replica that allows us to optimize those systems to prevent overflows in the event of emergency response, do a lot of scenario and what if training? And it also allows us to optimize the design and optimist and operations and maintenance. Another example for data analytics is for NASA at their Langley site in Virginia, we have about 120,000 sensors that are all around that campus. That measure things like vibration temperature, humidity, and we use predictive analytics and machine learning to be able to anticipate when something might break, which then leads to benefits like improved safety. You don't have to send somebody out to just regularly change a fan belt or whatnot improve reliability.Heather Wishart-Smith:That is a huge aspect of it. A site like NASA, they really do need to keep their site going and not have these unexpected outages also financial benefits, money money that saved and energy efficiency. And that we've had - we didn't start with 120. We started with, you know, you know, I think it was a few thousand or something like that, but it's been going on for about four years. And it just goes to show that there are a lot of opportunities in the built environment to be able to harness these technologies. I think we probably, you know, as far as specific discussion about artificial intelligence, but when, you know, when you marry that with automated design, we've been able to automate the design of you know, replicate some some very re repetitive sorts of components, say of rail or other things that, that are used quite frequently. But then bringing that and taking the learning again, starting small. So I mentioned starting smaller with Langley, starting smaller with some other things, learn from that and then be able to use it to scale even larger.Kevin McMahon:Joe, we have a pretty interesting question following up with what the panel just talked about from the audience. And it's with the ongoing industry evolution of technology is all for the panels of describe and the new graduate backgrounds that are not necessarily all engineering, traditionally related vertical integration of team, perhaps some of those team members being around the world. What impact does the panel see relative to professional engineering licensor requirements? Also coupled with the political issue today of making sure that America stays strong in engineering and doesn't outsource all the talent, like the manufacturing issue that we're well aware of.Joseph Bates:Good question. Anybody want to bite that one?Chris Luebkeman:So I I'm perhaps not the right person to answer this one. And I put that up front because I'm no longer licensed. So I really probably don't have the right to answer that question. I think what is critical is there, look at what the responsibilities are and who carries the responsibility because to me, a professional engineer in Switzerland, you don't need to have us go through a special, another licensing exam because the education is supposed to prepare you for that. But at the end of the day, it's who carries the responsibility. And what do you want to trust? Do you want to just, you want to trust a degree or do you want to trust actually that someone has proven their capability to make the right decisions. So I think it's that trust and I hope I've given Heather enough time.Heather Wishart-Smith:True friend, Chris, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that is a great point. I am still licensed. But I think it's, yes, it is trust. I think it's important to recognize despite the fact that there are many forces out there in various States trying to diminish the value of the license and great organizations like ACEC, like NSPE had been working hard to show that value. So despite those forces of trying to diminish the value of it at the end of the day, I think we need to remember that technology is a tool. So the tools have evolved. It used to be that professional engineers just worked at the drafting table. Then we shifted to computer aided design, you know, and then we've, we've evolved. We've got, you know, all kinds of different tools, but the technology is just a tool we still need to, as Chris said, trust the people who are applying the tool and that's for the professional engineering, licensure comes in.Chris Luebkeman:Good job Heather, thank you.Joseph Bates:So in the interest of time, I'm going to go ahead and move on to the next question that we have here. Okay. We could, we could probably have a round table on each one of these questions. This next one. I'd like to direct it at Heather and, and Chris as well, actually. How is, and you all have talked a little bit about this already, so maybe dive a bit more into this, but how will the technology affect the culture and the collaboration environment of engineering firms? You know, we talked a little bit about will, and there was a question about, will it work different places around the world, but in terms of the culture, how is that going to be impacted by technology?Heather Wishart-Smith:Yes. Would you like to start, or should I start and give you some time to think...Chris Luebkeman:You're on the edge of your seat and ready? So go for it.Heather Wishart-Smith:Okay. so we've already talked about that. I think there's going to be - several of us have said that we think that there will be a greater focus on cross disciplinary work. Innovation, pretty much demands it. And we, we can't just complete our work in silos. We need to have these multi-disciplined teams and these multi-disciplined teams, can't just be the disciplines they need to include the business model. So the HR piece, the finance and all the rest, that should be part of the development of new solutions. I think a key way of doing this is, you know, at least in my role is by embracing innovation within the workforce that we have and that's by promoting collaboration.Heather Wishart-Smith:So we need to teach people across the business to be able to collaborate, to be able to network so that when that real work does happen, they have that muscle memory of the collaboration of the innovation. And I mean, you know, in our industry, it's so difficult because we're built on a billable hours culture, it's been this way, you know, for eternity. And there's also a performance unit kind of mentality to the engineering industry where you know, it's, whether it doesn't matter how your company is structured, whether you're structured in it by geography or by discipline or by market, there's still silos. And so we need to find ways to promote and, and sustain the breaking down of the silos. Many firms are, are, are structured to promote and sustain them, but we need to find ways to break them down. They're hard to break down. But I really do think that the firms that endure and those that will be successful are the ones that are successful in doing that on breaking down those silos.Chris Luebkeman:So I agree with fully Heather and I want to bring up two more aspects. One is cooperation, we are going to be in an increasingly cooperative and competitive environment. And I think many firms already, and many of us already understand how you can compete and still be friends. And this is one of the things I always enjoyed. When I was got to travel, go down to Australia and watch a sort of Australian rugby game or rugby, you know, and people would literally like without pads, try to beat the blank out of each other, but nobody really did anything where they couldn't go have a beer afterwards and they would respect each other from, you know, the grit and their cleverness and how they played the game. But you never played dirty. Cause if you played dirty, you know, you couldn't have that had that beer.Chris Luebkeman:And this is something which I would like to hope that we can also aspires - not necessarily Australian rules, rugby. It's a crazy game, all due respect, Mike, it's crazy. But this idea that just because we're competitors does not mean we can't always be good friends and I truly believe we need to work more on the second part. I think we're very good at the first part. So I think so culture is actually a manifestation of both the written and unwritten rules and how one treats each other. And it's the written and the unwritten rules. And part of your question there, Joe is about culture change. So part of the question that has to be, as we look at ourselves and our firms, what is our culture? And do we actually understand what the written and unwritten rules are of our firm? And if you haven't asked yourself that, and not just what you think as a principal, what the culture is and you say, well, our culture is openness and you walk into the office.Chris Luebkeman:And as soon as you walk in, everybody puts their head down and they're afraid of you, but you can say it's open, but the reality might be a very different thing. So to actually have a real conversation about the culture that we need in order to be successful in the new economy, in the digital transformation and one and one more thing, Jose, and it's all you said. So for me, the most important thing that we could say with this is, and I support Heather is it's not just a technology, but it's actually having a real conversation about our firm's culture and what we wanted to be slash needed to be.Jose Luis Blanco:Yes, just 10 seconds of this. I think that there's clear, there's a very clear link between performance and health, right? Health critical part of that is culture. And I think that over the past three months with COVID, I think we shift towards a working remote environment and we all will be surprised how fast we've been able to adapt to that. Right. but I think that some of the challenges of the issues will culture are going to start to appear in the coming months. And it's my belief that you can sustain. You can potentially sustain our existing, strong cultural, remotely. I don't think you can build the cultural remotely, or you can rebuild a culture remotely. So that's something that firms will need to, you know, when we're talking about what we're hearing about are they working from home, you know, half of my staff working from home and things like that. I think the implications of cultural implications of that I get to be seen, and we just need to pay attention to that.Kevin McMahon:With lifelong learning, that a lot of the parents have mentioned, and the ability for more experienced engineers to learn new tools and skills, maybe it's more from Mike's first answer, or are the tools keeping pace with the expectation of learning curve of designers to shorten or eliminate the learning curve to use these tools?Mike Haley:No, I wouldn't say they are. I think there's a it's, it's, it's a very, it's a, it's a difficult problem because I don't think it's well understood today. I mean, we, we still live in a world with traditional educational cycles, traditional university college, whatever it may be, get your, get your certification, do that. But those are the cycles we live in. So those are the models we have today. There isn't many models that, that, that, that have this sort of rapid learning world that I referred to for. I mean, some of the only models today are actually newer technology applications. Things you might get on an iPad that people are learning supervised there's there's ideas. There's these hints. I think all over the place as to what these are, I would hesitate to think of a single really, really good example that exists in the world of technology today.Mike Haley:I can tell you, in our research group, this is a very large part of our research objective. And it's precisely for this reason is that we don't actually know the right ways to do this. We are doing experiments in our software. We were introducing features that help people understand how they're learning the software, how they compare to others who are learning it, what are their patterns of progression through the software? And as we do this, we are gradually introducing more tools, but we're also learning at the same time. So I'm not quite sure what that looks like yet, but we don't have an option. That's the point though, we have to do this. We have to make this, the nature - tools cannot just be about taking what you do today and automating it away. Tools have to be about making you more effective and making the combination of human and machine better at the end of the day.Chris Luebkeman:No, I think that's great. The other thing I think so fascinating, it was Kevin with that question is the micro-learning. And I have two 20 something year olds one's graduated. One's just about to, and you know, they, they do micro-learning if they need to learn how to do something, they take and look on YouTube and they find a little burst on how to do it. And then all of a sudden they know how to do it. And I just, it's hard for me of a different generation to think that way. I'd rather call up Mike and have Mike explain it to me and say, hey, you know, and talk to him. And my son, George would just rather just look at YouTube, look it up. And he actually doesn't care what language it's in, because if it's a tool, he can just watch the strokes. And sometimes he'll look at something in different languages, because it's just interesting to see how someone's designed something slightly differently. It just kind of blows my mind, you know?Joseph Bates:So I, again, I just want to keep us moving here. I apologize for cutting off these great conversations. I want to this one's just for Mike, and then we're going to, we're gonna move to the last questions here, but Mike, how, how are people going to pay for this? You know, are certain firms going to have an advantage, the big firms, because they can afford to pay for the technology and the education and the taking the non billable hours to learn it, what's going to happen there and how will the small firms catch up?Mike Haley:Right. So, I mean, you know we're seeing a lot of new business models around how people pay for software, right? So, I mean, we've, we've moved to subscription models which make billing more consistent. And over time, we're also seeing the emergence of capacity based models. And, you know, there was a time not too long in the past where there were, there were products and tools that we make at Autodesk that very few firms, unless you are a massive firm could actually afford, you know, you would, you would only use those tools if you're a certain size that doesn't actually make sense in a capacity based world. So if you're paying for capacity, if I'm a small, if I'm a small firm and I need to run say three structural simulations a week, if I pay per structural simulation and don't have to pay an enormous amount of money for the software upfront, then it doesn't matter that I'm a small firm versus a big firms.Mike Haley:So I think we were seeing these more flexible models that, of course they relate to the cloud, they relate to those sorts of things. And I think, I think there's an interesting difference between large firms and small firms. I think large firms have an inertia that, that, that they have to overcome, but they also have, they have the capital, they have the assets, they have the money, they have the ability to do some of these things only. So the firms lack what Heather were saying. Firms that have been doing this for awhile, actually have a massive advantage because they are there. They are able to act on it. On the flip side, the small firms are nimble, right? They are flexible. They starting up. In fact, their secret sauce will be adopting these very kinds of technologies that we're talking about right now, data in the cloud work from anywhere, flexible learning, bring the data together. Use, use generative design, use, use digital twins, use insights, use these things. And those will be the folks that will win better. But I do believe in the sort of flexible business models that allow everybody to leverage all of the technology.Joseph Bates:Okay, great. So I'm going to ask the final question for each of you, and then we may have time for a couple of questions. Kevin Jose, I want to start out with you. I know you have to log off just a couple of minutes before the rest of us. So the big final question is what is, what is the firm of 2040 look like? You know, put you put on your thinking, cap, your wizardry, whatever you want to call it, your crystal ball. What is the firm of 2040 look like Jose? He might be gone. Oh. Did we already lose them? Okay, well sorry about that. I thought we were going to have him for another five minutes, but so let's just go ahead and throw that one over to Heather.Heather Wishart-Smith:Sure. So I think that we're going to see very few of the traditional A & E's in place. I think that line between technology and design it's, it's already been blurred. I think it will become increasingly blurred. Some examples. We all know about Sidewalk Labs and their smart city project in Toronto. And, you know, yes, I know it's, you know, that project has been terminated, but it they're going to come back in a different city with a different model, with more privacy controls and all the we've seen it with Elon Musk, the Boring Company, and Hyperloop pretty much with no past performance, they've won large scale tunneling projects. You see it with tech companies with autonomous vehicles. Just what was it two weeks ago with space spaceX just launched America's first private company to do so here in America. So that line is really becoming increasingly blurred.Heather Wishart-Smith:So it's really going to result in the increase in the skill set of firms. So tech companies, I think, are going to start acquiring more traditional skill sets, maybe by buying some of these more traditional A & E companies, especially as the owners age out and traditional companies are going to be acquiring the tech skills. That's maybe not as much through acquisition, but through training, by hiring different people. It's funny at Chris, I love your term of coopertition in, I have a colleague at Jacobs who refers to it as competitive-ates. These are where sometimes you compete and sometimes you collaborate together. Taking what Chris said earlier a little bit further. I always try to remember that today's competitor could be tomorrow's client because this is such a small industry. We all have competitors who have since become a clients but, you know, with these competitive-ates, cooper-ates competition, it's really about collaborating together to address these new market opportunities because alone, we're probably not going to be able to get there. So it comes back to your behavior, your home, we talked about earlier, your mindset, not being risk averse, being open to new ideas. And if you want to endure, do not get too comfortable in your silo.Joseph Bates:Great. It looks like we have Jose back Jose. I wanted to ask you before you have to jump off, what does the firm of 2040 look like?Jose Luis Blanco:Well just kinda like very, very interesting question. I mean, I wish I had a crystal ball to actually explain all that, but I think that, I think in my mind, if I just summarize what I see the firm of 2044 as like having a very different demographics in terms of like the roles that we have and have been there for 34 years I'm very doubtful that we're going to be there. Right? [inaudible] The projects that we have right now, many different type type of led professions in there and professions that don't even exist as of today. Right. I expect us probably hopefully it'd be again, probably much more remote, but also with some sort of physical presence because in the end physical presence, local presence, because in the end, I think that the work that we do is not only even the built environment is an enabler for many of the things and we need to listen locally to be able to deliver globally.Jose Luis Blanco:Right. So that's something that also, I think the firm needs to have. And I hopefully I hopefully like you by 2040 as is like in a few years time, which is time you know, infrastructure and the brother engineering space is being seen as a critical part of how people, you know, how will you enable how people live, work and play. So hopefully we will see engineering to be playing even a more integral part in people's lives than it even paying today. So maybe I'm being too optimistic, but those are the things that I would personally see. I see all these revolutions that are happening is also like almost like an opportunity to put the engineers back at the center of so many different things that we can do to improve our society going forward. So again, maybe I'm a little bit of like an optimistic, maybe I'm just like a little bit optimistic, but those are some of the things that I would expect to see in digging the farmer to 40, like diversity from backgrounds, diversity in terms of likely for him elements being much more at the core of how we work, play and live. And and those are some of the traits that I expect.Joseph Bates:Great. Thanks Jose. Mike, what about you? And then we're going to add, go to Chris.Mike Haley:So I, since we're a group of optimists here, so I'm, I'm I'm an optimist as well. When for me, a lot of it comes back to the competition thing that Heather and Chris have both talked about, but looking at it at a knowledge level I think there's an enormous amount of knowledge that exists across the engineering architect of the entire building industry that is mostly common, but it's not always shared or is really shared. And I think by 2040, I see there being a strata of, of knowledge be a digitally represented, hopefully that is then is available to everyone. It, again, I used the term, you know, raising the sea, raising all boats, right? All boats are naturally floating at a higher level, which allows the competition then to actually happen at a higher level. The difference between firms is no longer at this lower level that everybody is benefiting from the shared observations, perhaps it's the performance of certain buildings or performance of certain decisions or materials or processes or whatever it is. So I really do see a more collaborative world centered around knowledge sharing.Chris Luebkeman:So for me, well, the first thing that I do whenever I asked a question like that, Joe, is I think of, I go 20 years back. So if we go back to two year, 2000 and think, where are we as a practice, as a world, they're all freaking out because we thought our computers were going to blow up, right? And the world was a, I would argue a very, very different place 20 years ago. So I'll then go forward and think 20 years, what's the context going to be of the firm 20 years from now. And so we will have massive water stress globally. We're already seeing that in the United States, North America. So we will see mass migration. We're going to have a political stress due to migration, which we have not in our lifetimes yet even begun to experience.Chris Luebkeman:And so therefore we're going to be called upon to solve problems, which are not just technical, but have a social dimension in a way which is quite profound. And I'm not quite sure if we're going to be up for the, up for that yet right now, the firms aren't. But I think by then we will be, I think there by 2040, we are always going to be designing and full artificial reality. And we'll be using virtual reality in construction sites as an absolute norm. It's gonna be like, duh, can you believe that we actually did this once without it just in the same way. Now we can hardly imagine using a slide rule, which I think I was the last class at Cornell to actually use, you know, and I think, and so this is going to be a new, so let's means then if you're doing in VR/AR or that means you don't have to be co located in any way, shape or form.Chris Luebkeman:So all of us can be in a design meeting right now and actually really interacting with haptics so we can push and pull and really feel that I think by 2040, we will have climate legislation, which has been a long time coming, which will then have a different paradigm shift on how we, and what we designed to. So the makeup of our firms will also be very different and what's going to be needed in order to, for us to design for things which will be fit for purpose because the purpose will be not just engineering specification. And I think that's so, and then if I think about economically, we will have gone through two recessions. We're about to hit one and we will at least go through another two within 20 years. And I think we'll go through to identity crises as a profession. We're kind of in one right now, we're doing, what's our role.Chris Luebkeman:I think we'll go through a couple more as these new tools and these new challenges come. And so, and the last one, I'll say, no, politically there will be a new ballgame. There'll be a new empire, not quite sure which one will rise stronger, but you know, our rocket is kind of kicking over. We've seen peak Americas. And so, and then the question becomes, what will it look like in this new environment for consultants that we already have a lack of sand. We have a lack of, you know, so it's gonna be very interesting in how we design in a constrained physically constrained world. So these are gonna be new challenges, which I think is super exciting for us. And we have to be walk into this with our head up, right? Not looking backwards, but to walk with that with our head up and shoulders back saying, okay, it's, it's a new, it's a new game. It's a new quarter. Let's get the team out there and let's play ball.Joseph Bates:Great. Great, Chris, thanks for closing this out there. Daphne, I'm going to throw it back to you for a few final comments.Daphne Bryant :Thank you everyone for joining us. Thank you to our panelists for all your wonderful insights to our donors for making this session possible. We do have a short evaluation that we will send you this afternoon. So please share your experience with us and be sure to join us next week for our second session, the buildings we live and work in, that'll be on June 25th at 3:00 PM. Eastern. Thank you. Have a great afternoon and please stay safe.

There'll be a part 2 to this. Once I steamroll past whats got me pissed to start, I sing 2 songs poorly, and then I take a trip down memory lane. Not to clear my name but to bask in the chaos.

In your feed for one month only, it's retro AMT192, originally from 13 October 2011, featuring questions about the first ever YouTube video, the other brick road in The Wizard of Oz, royal towns, and getting a secret vasectomy after accompanying kids to Disney World. This episode originally appeared at . There'll be an all-new episode of AMT on the first Thursday of the month. Send us questions to answer: email written words or voice memos to . For more AMT, you can obtain episodes 1-200 and our Best Ofs and special albums - including our brand new release Home Entertainment - from . Tweet us Facebook Subscribe on Apple Podcasts  Hear Helen Zaltzman's podcasts The Allusionist at  and Veronica Mars Investigations at , Olly Mann's The Modern Mann at  and his many other podcasts at , and Martin Austwick's Song By Song at . This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Want to build a website? Go to , and get a 10% discount on your first purchase of a website or domain with the code 'answer'.

With Black Lives Matter protest continuing around the world, we felt it would be irresponsible to not discuss it on the pod. No matter how small the platform, it's up to content creators to have the discussions even if they make us feel uncomfortable. So this week we discuss systemic racism, racism in pop culture and what we can all do to help the Black Lives Matter movement. There'll be a list of links on our Instagram for organisations you can donate to, so check it out.

We're back with Series 3! Now, there's some very serious and important things happening in the world at the moment and although this episode won't tackle those issues head on, we thought it was the right time to bring American Trailblazers to the table. And who better to bring six brilliant choices to the podcast than Sam and Calum. There'll be a slightly different structure to this series so stay with us for that but we hope you enjoy our first episode back with some fantastic choices for Rob to choose from. Do leave us a review, it really makes such a difference and remember you can follow us on Twitter: @3SportsRankers, Instagram: 3sportsrankers and Facebook: Three Sports Rankers Sponsorships: off for this episode

For our bonus podcast this week, which we're releasing early as it was just sitting there ready to go (and also the nature of the subject matter means it could well go out of date at any time!), we're chatting about Corrie's back to work plans. With lockdown measures easing and the number of episodes recorded up to March getting smaller and smaller, it's back to the cobbles for the cast and crew next week - but it's far from business as usual. There'll be social distancing, takeaways from the Rovers and episodes written specifically to fit three in a week - it's still going to be a while until the show goes back to normal, but it's a positive start! In this episode, we muse over a few ideas for how the gap between old and new episodes maybe bridged, ponder how more vulnerable cast members could still be included, and consider what lessons the higher ups at Corrie might have taken away after overcoming one of the show's biggest ever hurdles.

New rules around freshwater are being labelled a missed opportunity by the iwi chairs forum. The government has imposed tough new rules to improve freshwater quality. There'll be new limits on high-risk farm practices and interim limits on agricultural intensification. Higher health standards will also be required for popular swimming spots, and urban waterways will have to be cleaned up. The government says it will be guided by matauranga Māori in its implementation. But Chair of the Freshwater Iwi Leaders Group, Rukumoana Schaafhausen, told Mani Dunlop that the rules don't go far enough.

  - Barry Hoyer All of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity. Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work. Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was   INTRO   Today, I am talking with Barry Hoyer.  Barry works for DISH Network and lives in Denver with his two dogs, who have grown rather needy due to his constant, COVID-19 presence.    - Barry Hoyer I've I've been with them all day, which I think is part of the part of the problem that they're getting accustom and they're like, we're just so used to having you here.   Last year, Barry was also living with AJ, the love of his life who was killed, suddenly, by a drunk driver.  We will explore his love and his loss in today’s episode.  But first, a brief word from our sponsors.    We are sponsored today by Fullstack PEO.  Fullstack provides turnkey benefits for entrepreneurs and small businesses.  They have a top-notch staff that I genuinely enjoy interacting with.   We are also sponsored by Handl with Care consulting, offering targeted, impactful sessions to help your staff survive, stabilize, and thrive in the midst of COVID-19.    I met Barry during my second year of my MBA in Bloomington.  He was as first year, part of the GLOBASE program where we traveled to Accra, Ghana to consult with emerging entrepreneurs.  We went on morning runs through the streets of Accra together.  Barry is warm and witty with a quick laugh.     - Liesel Mertes So tell me a little bit more about A.J., what were some of your absolutely favorite, most delightful things about him?   - Barry Hoyer Oh, my God. The way he laughed when he was truly I don't know what the right word is touched by something or found something particularly funny.   - Barry Hoyer He had this different laugh that would come out that just let you know that it wasn't a reaction for the sake of a reaction. It was true.   - Barry Hoyer I'm never going to forget that laugh. He also had this way of like when things were stressful at work or when I'd had a bad day, like he would just kind of put his arms around me and I could put my head on the shoulder. And he had just this way of saying, oh, I know. I'm sorry. Yeah, it was very, very comforting.   - Liesel Mertes Did he have any particularly endearing, quirky things that he did?   - Barry Hoyer Oh, my goodness. This is. He's gonna hate that I mentioned this, especially in a recorded situation when he was growing up. He grew up. He was born and raised.   - Barry Hoyer Well, grew up for the first eight years in Southern California. Then his family moved to Indiana. And somewhere along the way, he had befriended a Puerto Rican family. And he'd be learning Spanish, and so he just continued studying Spanish in college. And next thing you know, him being Puerto Rican became part of his ancestry.   - Barry Hoyer So, so much of the point that when I met him, I thought he was Puerto Rican because he told me he was Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer All of our friends thought he was Puerto Rican. And even when he spoke Spanish, it was with a very, very heavy Puerto Rican accent. There was nothing Puerto Rican about him. Dean assumed Puerto Rican identity. It's kind of like the thing that, like people are still like, I can't believe he wasn't Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer Shortly after the exit happened, like two days later, his mom and stepdad came out to help with arrangements and just to, you know, handle everything with me.   - Barry Hoyer And I had a bunch of friends over one night just kind of needing a sense of community. And his mom and stepdad were there and his biological father was there. And there might have been a little bit of wine consumed over the course of the night. But his mom basically outed him as not being Puerto Rican.   - Barry Hoyer She told us this story that she had gone to softball practice to watch his younger sister play softball. And one of the other moms of one of the girls on the team came up and was like, Oh, your ages, mom.   - Barry Hoyer I didn't know your husband was Puerto Rican. She was just like. Neither did I. And that's what she that everyone in the room.   - Barry Hoyer And she was like, I don't care how mad he gets at me for this. He wasn't Puerto Rican. He was a white boy.   - Liesel Mertes May it be known.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah, it was going it was one of those moments of levity that was severely needed. Yes. In the midst of all of that.   - Liesel Mertes And how long ago did you and A.J. first meet?   - Barry Hoyer We met a little over six years ago.   - Liesel Mertes And were you drawn to each other quickly and did you know it was fairly intense?   - Barry Hoyer We met and we met the old fashioned way. We met at a party. A party almost didn't go to I was relatively new to Denver, I'd been in Denver for five months. And I didn't. I almost didn’t go to this party. I didn't. I don't generally enjoy showing up places by myself. And I knew there were going to be a lot of people and, you know, brand new, loud social situation. I almost stayed home, but I end up going and had a great time.   - Barry Hoyer And about two hours after I got there, I might have had a little bit to drink that night. And I shouted at one of our other friends in Spanish to make me a drink. And then this handsome stranger walked up to me. And in Spanish aska, Oh, so you speak Spanish. And then we just started talking for the rest of the night. And you would have never known that there was anybody else in the room. It was just very intense.   - Barry Hoyer A grew very quickly. It was just one those things they had never felt so sure about. And so, you know, the next morning, I would like everybody, a bunch of you will end up staying at the house just because it was that kind of party and those kind of friends. So this morning, AJ's waking up and helping clean up an. I was still relatively new. So, like one of my friends, I was like, man, what's your phone number again?   - Barry Hoyer So I was telling him my phone number. And then AJ pulls out his phone and basically said, wait. You start over again. I was like, oh, I see where this is going. And we're pretty much inseparable after that.   Last year, Barry and AJ traveled to Europe for 11 days.  They got a great deal on airfare and went to Spain.    - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Was there a city that particularly stood out? They said this was just like the best day.   - Barry Hoyer Oh, man, I'm glad you asked. He had been kind of obsessed with Spanish culture, and he really wanted to see the city of Granada. It's in the south of Spain. And so I figured out a way to fit it in and make it work. And that was probably was definitely his most memorable stop on the trip. So much so that he felt that we should move there. Mm hmm.   - Barry Hoyer But we had this really great AirBnB that was literally right across there's a little river. And we were right across this little river from the Colomba. So we had a little Juliet balcony off of the apartment that we rented. And it had just the most incredible view of the Illawarra, a daytime. And then that night, we had found a bottle of wine and sat on a little balcony and had a glass of wine and watch the kind of sunset behind.   - Barry Hoyer And D'Alemberte lit up at night. Mm hmm. And it was just kind of really I don't know. I didn't realize it at the time. How profound of a moment it would be. But it was just kind of incredible to be in this ancient setting, in this beautiful space and just be able to get to share such a view of an incredible piece of history with the person that I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life with.   - Liesel Mertes And. What was that? Was it even when you got the news?   - Barry Hoyer It was the next morning I had I had to work on that. And so I stayed up late that night and. I got home from my work event somewhere between 10 and 11. And then around one o'clock in the morning, I woke up and he wasn't home. And so I texted him and. Didn't hear anything. And but the tax, because we both have iPhones.   - Barry Hoyer I can see the, the message was being delivered. So I knew that it was going through, but I knew that he wasn't responding, so I kind of texted for an hour, try to figure out what to do next. And then when that didn't happen. We need to respond. I started calling and I probably called 70 something times and it went straight to voicemail. That's when I started to get really concerned.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. And then I started calling every emergency room in the Denver metro area. I started calling every police station to see if anybody could tell me anything and nobody could tell me anything that had happened.   - Barry Hoyer So I had kind of this false sense of security. Like if nobody is telling me anything, then everything must be OK. And then the next morning, we know and later that morning, I guess I hadn't heard anything by 10 o'clock and nobody was telling me anything and I was extremely panicked. I went to the local police station to file a missing persons report. And then after about forty five minutes of waiting, a police officer told me what had happened.   - Liesel Mertes What, what a horrible stretch of time. I mean, I just imagine that felt maddening that this cascade of not knowing what had happened.   - Barry Hoyer There's a lot I don't remember after getting the news, but from the moment when I first was worried, when I found out what happened, I can tell you what every minute was like.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. And what was the news that you received about what had happened to AJ?   - Barry Hoyer An officer took me into a separate room and told me that there had been an accident involving an under the influence driver. And that he didn't survive. The AJC did interview A.J. did not survive.   - Liesel Mertes What I mean, you mentioned that there's a lot that you don't remember. What are some of the emotions that accompany that sort of unexpected and devastating news?   - Barry Hoyer To be completely honest, I kind of went to business mode. Yeah, and it was such a shock that I didn't have time to really process what had happened. It was more I need to get a hold of his mom. I need to talk to his family. I need to let our close friends know what happened. Where do I start? How do I figure this out? And they got pretty overwhelmed. And then they called two of our closest friends.   - Barry Hoyer And told them what happened, and then they drove to the police station immediately to to come get me. Yeah, and they got home and it was just really weird walking into the space they had shared with somebody for so many years. Is everything felt different when I walked in? Mm hmm. And. That was kind of the moment where I ended up, I stayed with friends for the first couple nights. And it was just it was kind of a mix of disbelief because it was so sudden.   All right.   - Barry Hoyer Our last real conversation that we had that day was about when the air conditioning unit was going to be repaired. Such trivial conversation on one hand, like I would have loved for our last conversation to have been something meaningful where, you know, we talked about all of our future plans and how much we loved each other and how great life was and all the sunshine and roses aspect. But on the other hand, our last conversation, the last time that we spoke was about something so, just, everyday life, the stuff that every couple deals with and. I had no way of knowing that, you know.   - Barry Hoyer Like, I beat myself up a little bit more sometimes about that, if I had known, if I had any way of knowing that that was going to be our last conversation. I camera if I said I love you before I hung up. I'm sure I did. But it would be nice to really remember for sure if those were my last actual words to him.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, it just highlights exactly what you've said, that this was such an unexpected shock. You know, I am, I think. The immediacy of grief. You know, you talked about kind of switching in business mode. I can resonate with that. Because for me, when I receive hard news, I feel like I feel like where my mind and emotions very naturally go is OK. What is the next thing that needs to be done as a result of this?   - Liesel Mertes For me, oftentimes afterwards I can find that my emotions can catch up to me quite suddenly and unexpectedly. Whether that is a day or two or a week later. Did you find that something similar happened for you?   - Liesel Mertes Is there a point where the emotional weight of the moment you felt like caught up with you?   - Barry Hoyer They're. Gosh, What’s the best way to answer that? My mom, my brother and my sister in law came out immediately. To be with me and to be there for the service, and I kind of felt that as long as I had somebody there to take care of, you know, here were people that were guests in my home, even though they're family.   - Barry Hoyer But I still had an obligation to take care of people and I still had responsibilities to others in that kind of. Helped me stay in business mode and get through what I needed to get through in Denver.   - Barry Hoyer And so there wasn't a real. I feel like I was just kind of numb. I either had something to do or I had nothing to do with it when I had nothing to do. I just didn't want to think about anything.   - Barry Hoyer I took some time off from work, and so my brother had to fly home to get back to work. But my sister in law and mom and I drove out back to California with the dogs. And so I kind of felt like I was responsible for my brother's wife. I was responsible for my mom. I was responsible for getting all of us back to California safely. And then so I just stayed in that mindset that I had a job to do and I could not experience anything other than the responsibility of that job until I got to where we were going. Right.   - Barry Hoyer And then once I got to my parents house. I'm pretty sure I turned into some combination of a five year old and a 13 year old and a 30 something diva, depending on kind of what moment of the day it was.   - Liesel Mertes Right. And they did. I'm sorry. What did that what did the five year old version look like for people who have not encountered traumatic grief? What did you find yourself feeling or doing?   - Barry Hoyer My mom and I have always been extremely close. And I've got probably the most caring mother in the world. I know everybody should probably through it isn't feel that everybody should feel that, but I hope everybody experiences some level of that. But as much as I love my mom, she wanted to check on me and she was being too much of a mother.   - Barry Hoyer To the point where I basically was just like, go away. I don't want to talk to you. I want to be by myself. Leave me alone. And just having reactions that after I'd had a little the time to process them, realize that maybe that's not the way you're supposed to talk to your mom. Like, remember that she wants to do what she can. And. But you don't necessarily think about other people's feelings in those moments, you kind of like reverted to a very kind of like primal reaction to where I was overwhelmed.   - Barry Hoyer And I knew that the if I yelled at somebody or something, then that was my quickest way to let somebody know that I was overwhelmed. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes What did how did people respond to you in that in a way that was important, either like, wow, people missed me and they were really harsh with me when I was just expressing myself. Or on the other hand, you know, people did a really great job of weathering that with me.   - Liesel Mertes What did you find felt important for you?   - Barry Hoyer In the first couple days, I had some words for my mom that kept resonating in my head. My mom suffered a stillbirth before I was born. And she said one of the things that was most impactful that people had told her. Was simply just, you know, for fear of saying the wrong thing. Just know that you're in my thoughts. And I had a lot of people express very similar sentiments. And that meant the most to me, because I know that everybody wants to feel like they're helping, everybody wants to.   - Barry Hoyer It feels good to be there for people. It feels good to support people. And everybody wants to contribute to that. But there were just some moments, whereas like, you know what? Great. Thank you. And just had those more like simple. Expressions like that allowed me a chance to not have to talk about what happened, to dwell on what happened, just simply to know that somebody was thinking of me. Yeah.   - Barry Hoyer When I got back to work, the first couple days were tough and. Somebody on my team told me. Oh, well, you're handling this so well, you're you're holding up so well. And my first reaction was. Involving an expletive. Yeah. That I won't mention here. It just came across as incredibly callous. Mm hmm.   – Liesel Mertes And I had to remind myself a little bit more about that, because I can picture some people thinking, well, why was that callous?   Barry Hoyer – It was. It implies that there's some expectation of how you're supposed to kind of readjust to life. And it was like in my head, I was thinking, you know, you have no idea how I'm feeling. I'm trying to hold it together because I'm at work and I don't necessarily want to display a ton of emotions at work.   - Barry Hoyer And it's all I can do to hold it together. And you're pointing out the fact that I'm holding it together.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It just a day came across as very disingenuous. Mm hmm, yeah. It almost felt like one of those things that you say to somebody in a situation like that when you don't really have anything substantive to say.   - Barry Hoyer I tried to remind myself that, you know, people meet people where they're at. And this is where this individual happened to be at. And they were trying to say something nice would be encouraging. And they had to just kind of remind myself of that fact and move on before I let myself get frustrated.   - Liesel Mertes Oh, man. I hear that it can be that global awareness can be this added like mental burden, because not only are you processing your own stuff in your own grief, but suddenly you're having to try to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and think about how they're feeling. And I imagine that can have its own degree of exhaustion when you're just trying to get through a day.   - Barry Hoyer It can be a lot in that particular sentiment came across as like. This is how you're coming across to me, like it didn't necessarily remove the person from the thought that they wanted to get across.   - Barry Hoyer I got very much was around their perception of the event.   - Barry Hoyer I don't know that one still feels a little raw. To be honest, four and a half months later.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, I've. I have heard from other people who have been on the receiving end of that comment that sometimes they can place a particular expectation as well, like, oh, you're doing so well. And one could miss your reality. What if you're not actually doing that well? And two, I can set this, I don't know, kind of high bar of like I don't expect to see any weakness from you or to have any bad day because then you suddenly wouldn't be doing quote unquote. Well. And what would that mean? I've spoken with some people that feel like it. Yeah. It just sets a a really unrealistic bar of expectation also.   - Barry Hoyer Now, that's actually an incredible observation. I hadn't even really stopped to think about that. But soon as you said that, the first part that you hit on was like, no, like, in fact, I'm not doing that well. This is just a show. But the thing that didn't even stop to think about until now is there was some. It makes perfect sense. There's some underlying expectation. Like, oh, OK. So this is what your expectation of me is. And so this is how I have to maintain going forward.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Maybe in a strange sort of way, like, you know, a hundred years ago as women were in corsets and high heels and all of these like kind of ridiculous garments to just hold everything in for appearances sake and be like, oh, you just look so charming and beautiful. And the woman is thinking like, oh, my gosh, I can barely keep this up. And it's just a normal media like non course added in just my normal feet. Like going to just be such a disappointment. So strange parallel. But I could picture something like that. I'd be like, are you kidding me?   - Barry Hoyer This is no, that's a great analogy.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Barry Hoyer One of the more interesting reactions was when I got back to work. And a colleague who I'm not particularly close with outside of the office, saw me the first day I was back and ran up to me in the middle of the floor and gave me this huge hug and it's kind of loud. I'm so sorry. And I didn't really want that kind of attention drawn to me. Yeah. Again, I think this person had great intentions. I don't think that they were coming from a disingenuous place. It was just a bit more than I cared for at work. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes Because when that happened, what were you thinking in real time?   - Barry Hoyer I was thinking, we can talk later, but please make this stop. Because she basically wanted to have a conversation that I did not want to have in that moment. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes I think that you mentioned and not everyone is able to say this, but that actually there's some things that your workplaces done really well. What were some of those things that felt meaningful to you?   - Barry Hoyer I'm very, very fortunate in that. I have both of my my first level manager and my V.P.. Are just incredible people to start with. I have a closer relationship with both of them than I have with any other manager in the past. So as soon as I called my mom and a few close friends, the next person I called was my manager just to let her know what had happened. And it's funny looking back at it now, it's actually asked if it was OK if I didn't come into work the following Monday and this was a Saturday that I'd found everything out.   - Barry Hoyer And. I think she was in shock and she was fairly blown away. And. When she basically told me to worry about anything, we're going to handle everything you just focus on, like what you need to focus on.   - Barry Hoyer And there were a handful of times where she actually cried with me on the phone and I could tell that she truly could empathize with what I was dealing with and definitely had her own level of sadness for the situation that I was experiencing.   - Barry Hoyer So my no, my work kind of went above and beyond. A friend of mine at work that works in H.R. was trying to be helpful and had sent me a phone number to call for a direct line. Basically saying that after bereavements up, if I need more time out of the office, you know, just like here's a phone number, you can call our leaves team.   - Barry Hoyer And then my head was my immediate thought was OK. So I just lost the love of my life. And now I probably don't wanna go back to work. That's probably best for everybody. They don't go back to work right now. But on top of that, I potentially misunderstood what my managers had said. And so now, like just letting the practicalities of everything sit in, half of our income is gone, but our fixed expenses have stayed the same. And now I'm going to not have a paycheck for a little while unless I just go back to work and suck this up.   - Barry Hoyer And I truly believe that the person that sent me the text was coming from a very caring place. But my manager stepped in and she was like, no, I don't regret that. We're gonna handle everything. I'll bring you your laptop. As far as H.R. is concerned, you're working remotely for the indefinite future. And as far as we are concerned, you're not working at all until you're ready to. So she really extended herself to be able to be creative and not bound by kind of process and bureaucracy in a way that was attuned to you.   - Liesel Mertes This seemed really important.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It's one of those moments where I'm really extremely grateful that I have such a great relationship with my manager. But they truly believe that management in my department cares so much. That this offer, good offer offers not the right word, but that the same situation would have been extended to anybody.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry. Oh, you're going to just affirm. That's a great testament to, you know, things like that one offs. They are testifying to a culture that has been built in lots of other moments and that in a time of crisis that becomes the overflow like that, the natural overflow is support. So, yeah, I hear how important that is.   - Barry Hoyer It was great. I even got an e-mail from my CFO telling me to worry about myself and focus on myself first, and that work should be the absolute last thought until it felt like the right time to think about work again.   Yeah, OK.   - Barry Hoyer One of the more thoughtful responses from work. My company tends to be pretty social, especially around the holiday times, and a few years ago we had a new chief marketing officer that started an agent. We're at a holiday party at another VPC house that night. And our CMO had the opportunity to meet A.J. and chatted with us for a little bit and was very warm and welcoming and truly inquisitive about like, you know, getting to know A.J. and I in turn, got to have a wonderful conversation with his wife. And it was just a fun night. And then after news, it work had spread about what had happened. Our CMO sent me just a really kind email with a few touching notes about, you know, basically acknowledging I didn't know AJ well, but I remember talking with you guys that night.   - Barry Hoyer It seems like you guys enjoyed a Wonderful Life together and had many adventures. And I'm so sorry that this has happened. You will be in my thoughts and prayers. And it was just very touching in that he remembered specific things that you know about his conversation with AJ and knew more than just his name and that, you know, he and I were together.   - Liesel Mertes Right. That although he didn't know him deeply. He had taken the time to reflect and remember. And, yeah. Give back to you what he had known and observed.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. It was just a very touching moment. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes So for someone who has not lost a life partner, what are some of the unexpected challenges or the things that you would say in the months afterwards? Like this was so hard? I never would have known that this would be as hard as it was. Did things catch you off guard?   - Barry Hoyer The biggest the biggest surprise to me and I don't know if this speaks to my own naivete or if it just truly is one of the things that you don't know until you have to experience it. But I always imagined the stages of grief to be linear. First, you start with anger and then, you know, you kind of progressed through the next five or seven stages. One's a natural progression of the next. And or of the previous, I'm not quite sure how to say that, but I was honestly expecting to move through the stages, kind of like.   - Barry Hoyer And the straight line. Yes. And even still, there are days where, like. I know what happened. I know they can't change what happened. And I just have to do my best to move forward carrying this new aspect of my life with me.   - Barry Hoyer And then there are other days where I get so completely angry that I can't focus on anything and have to take a walk to before I can get back to work and be productive. Then I don't know if the anger comes from just given the situation of how his death happened.   - Barry Hoyer Guys get really mad. And then there are moments where, you know, the next day things feel more calm and I feel like I'm equipped to go through life again. And then all of a sudden you get more information and then you're back to being angry and you're back to being filled with a relative amount of rage. And it just it bounces all over the place.   - Liesel Mertes There is a particular nuance to your loss in that you're a homosexual man who has lost a partner and society doesn't quite have the same sort of established place for if you lost your head, a heterosexual partner or someone that you had been married to. What has it been like to navigate that dynamic?   - Barry Hoyer To be completely honest, it hasn't really. Try to find the right words to talk about this. All of it speaks to my friends or if it speaks to kind of where society has gotten to in general.   - Barry Hoyer But they feel that all of my friends have kind of treated this is like the loss of a husband or a wife, like it has the exact same gravity.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah. Work, it's. It's an interesting conversation at work. My, my V.P. is also gay, and we're roughly the same age and we've started an LGBTQ employee resource group. So my name is very out there in the company as being the leader of this group. And so it's definitely not an aspect of myself that I've ever felt the need to hide at work.   - Barry Hoyer Quite a few people showed up to his memorial service from work and so was a bit of a validation where people they didn't even necessarily consider myself that close to. Still felt compelled to show up and recognized how profound the loss was and then didn't really assign like, oh, this could have been, you know, if you were a straight married couple. My sympathy might be deeper. Right.   - Barry Hoyer I haven't really experienced any of that, but I know that's not necessarily a common perspective that gets told when it comes to loss.   - Liesel Mertes Right. Well, it sounds like in some ways, again, an overflow of the sort of company culture you were a part of. And the friend and support system that was there, that that didn't have to be an added trauma or pain on top of what was an already incredibly painful experience.   - Barry Hoyer It's been. They definitely have made it. It's been an easier transition back to work. I kind of have the leeway even still to if I'm having a bad day. You know, just pack up. Take my laptop, go work from somewhere else if I need to. There've been a couple times where I've done that. Where does feel being at work and being around people was just overwhelming. And you can't necessarily predict when this wave of emotions is going to hit.   - Barry Hoyer And when it happens, my my team has been pretty gracious with its kind of acknowledging, like we're gonna get done. We're not necessarily worried about that, but it's, you know, take care of yourself and feel free to, you know, figure work out how it fits into your life.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, you are. You are more important than just the tasks you might accomplish in this given afternoon.   - Barry Hoyer It's nice to feel that, though, it's nice to feel a validation about.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. If you were speaking to listeners who would say I've never had a traumatic loss like that. Is there anything that you would want people to understand about what that's like to go through?   - Barry Hoyer I would say. Gosh, a lot. But the person experiencing the loss. There'll be moments where they seem relatively composed that they've got to plan for life and you know, that they still have, you know, things to do in a life to live and they're ready to get back out there. But what comes across on the surface is not always a good indication of what lies beneath.   - Barry Hoyer Mm hmm. And another thing I would encourage listeners to to take away is just kind of I was talking about earlier about how the stages of grief aren't linear and you don't progressed naturally from one to the next. I went out for drinks for trivia night with some friends. About two weeks after I'd gotten back to Denver. And I felt myself having a really good time. To the point where I was laughing Charolette like carefree. And then I started to feel guilty about how great of a time I was having.   - Barry Hoyer That I shouldn't be allowed to have that much fun this close to such a traumatic event. And then I shut down again. And then for the rest of the night, I kind of like slipped into a place of guilt about being out with people and enjoying life. When A.J. can't. Nia.   - Barry Hoyer And that's kind of one of the things that just happens, and I'm sure it looks a little bit crazy to the people around you. But just remember to have the compassion that those moments are going to come and they're going to head out of nowhere and. Just, I don't know, offer a kind word and just be be patient.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, well, and it's also probably a word to anyone who is going through something like that in their own lives of the importance of patience with oneself in the midst of the journey, which can be its own challenge.   - Barry Hoyer That's a huge challenge. There are times where that night at the brewery with friends, where I was giving myself a hard time for enjoying the company of my friends, and in retrospect, you know, my gosh, I really shouldn't have been so hard on myself and I should have been a little bit more mindful of giving myself some some leeway, some grace to not always have to have the right thing to say or the right thing to do or, you know, have somebody else's expectations of grief placed upon you.   - Barry Hoyer Yeah, then you can keep it. Keep going, please. No, they say no, there have been moments where I feel like. I should be. More depressed and I am I should be sadder than I am, I should be crying all the time. And. But I also feel like those are expectations that other people put on somebody that have had a traumatic event like this happen.   – Liesel Mertes And what happens in private is usually kind of much of a bigger emotional response to what happened than anything I would want to show in public.   - Barry Hoyer Totally. I mean, I tend to be a pretty private person and I want to have like I was making breakfast one morning as it was five forty five in the morning and I was making scrambled eggs and I was listening to the ninety station and a song by The Cranberries came on and I lost it. Yeah, and I had a solid 30 minutes where I couldn't do anything other than, like, remind myself I had to go through a Wayburn decks and.   - Barry Hoyer So those things happen. But just because you're not showing it to everybody all the time doesn't mean that they don't happen.   - Liesel Mertes Are there other things I feel like you've had a lot of really helpful insights and obviously have, you know, for months, isn't isn't that long in there in the scheme of things, but have really been reflective of yourself and of grief in the process. Are there other things that you feel like would be important to add that you didn't get a chance to say?   - Barry Hoyer I think it's important to find something that makes you happy in life again. I've always enjoyed cycling. And I remember the first time that I went for a ride after I got back to Denver, we had this day in January that hit 72. And it felt like the perfect day to leave work early and go for a long bike ride.   - Barry Hoyer And it was, you know, off season. I hadn't been riding very much. I only got, I think, twenty five miles in that day. It was a very therapeutic experience. I was able to just shut my brain off and enjoy the scenery around me and enjoy the experience of being on a bike and doing something that I love. That felt good.   - Barry Hoyer And there's also say. This entire experience has made me kind of very contemplate of my own mortality. And after the accident happened, people were very quick to comment on how A.J. always offered them a smile and was always willing to help out. And so many people came forward, the stories of just saying how when they needed something, whether it was a short term loan or help moving or somebody to go talk with him about what had happened. A.J. was always there and it was just always ready to be a support system for so many people. And I feel like that kind of gave me a sense of purpose to try to carry that forward.   - Barry Hoyer And just to make sure that I am kind of honoring his legacy by. Being more compassionate, being more willing to help, being, you know, less frequent, to say no. And just always kind of like rethinking if I have a sharp comment to make. Taking an extra second to pause to make sure, is it really worth seeing? Or is this better held inside? All right. I just want to always make sure that positive energy goes out into the world and I don't want to do anything that contributes anything negative to it.   - Liesel Mertes It is a beautiful movement to carry forward. Yeah, as you honor someone who you love very deeply. Thank you, Barry. I really appreciate the time and being willing to go on to something that's been hard. So thank you. I appreciate it.   - Barry Hoyer I'm happy to. To talk about what happened in. Hopefully will have an impact on somebody.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three take-aways from my conversation with Barry…   Displays of support in the workplace are so important.An email sharing a memory, easing the path with HR, or having spaces to take off early if the days gets too overwhelming.  All of these things were deeply impactful for Barry.  As was his overall work context, where his presence as a homosexual man was not something that was an aberration or changes how people showed comfort during his time of loss.  When someone returns to work after a loss, be conservative about big, public shows of comfort.Barry described how uncomfortable it made him to have a casual coworker publicly draw attention to him and to his loss.  Grief is unpredictable.Barry describes feeling sad and then happy and then guilty for feeling happy.  If this is you, know that tumultuous emotions are normal.    Thanks to our sponsors, FullStack PEO and Handle with Care Consulting.    OUTRO  

In your feed for one month only, it's retro AMT130! Wherein we learn how canned tuna is cooked; the origins of port and starboard; your forebears bequeathing things to you while they're still alive; which came first, the McChicken Nugget or the Egg McMuffin; and an appalling homemade hair product for wooing.   We also have an announcement about a Fun New AMT Thing! This episode originally appeared at on 8 April 2010. There'll be an all-new episode of AMT on the first Thursday of the month. Send us questions to answer: email written words or voice memos to . For more AMT, episodes 1-200 and our Best Ofs and special albums - including our brand new release Home Entertainment - are available from . Tweet us http://twitter.com/helenandolly Facebook http://facebook.com/answermethis Subscribe on Apple Podcasts  Hear Helen Zaltzman's podcasts The Allusionist at  and Veronica Mars Investigations at , Olly Mann's The Modern Mann at  and his many other podcasts at , and Martin Austwick's Song By Song at . This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Want to build a website? Go to , and get a 10% discount on your first purchase of a website or domain with the code 'answer'.

Bruce Lee is best known for his amazing Martial Arts skills. But he was never a master of one. Bill Gates will forever be remembered for helping to usher in the home computer generation. Was it what he mastered? What about your journey? Have you mastered something? My Martial Arts Master always informed us that it requires 100,000 repetitions in order to begin a journey of mastering something. If you are a brilliant kicker in class I don't expect you to be a great blocker or puncher. We are designed to master only one thing. Forty one years of radio. I am nowhere near what a Master Broadcaster should look and sound like. A daily writer for twenty six years and I truly expect Creative Writing teachers to rip my attempts apart. I created the podcast View From The Writing Instrument for one reason. To talk with writers. Hundreds of them. None the same. Have they mastered their skills? Those of us on this side of print might think so until you hear them personally talk about the journey. Are we supposed to be more like Bruce Lee and accomplish a lot by being just good enough? I know plenty of multi tasking hard working mind blowing people that can cover enormous amounts of space which makes others feel like they've done nothing. As we continue to grow toward the reopening of our incredibly awesome country you're gong to be challenged by a new layer of business decision maker. Thirty three million people unemployed right now. That's a ton of creative minds about to accept whatever it takes to keep their house a home. The invisible part of this present Coronavirus journey isn't the actual virus. Its how the decision makers in companies in question will handle the employee of tomorrow during their bouts with PTSD and other mental conditions they couldn't control but were totally bent into a new shape by this changing world. My wife's school provides work groups with mental professionals weekly. They're strengthening their staff without having to threaten their job. The next steps in getting over this mess to make sure you never feel empty. There'll be new measures put into place on if you need to wear a mask, have your temp checked and heavily spraying down your space. It should also include your business providing mental rebuilding at no cost. We can do this. We have what it takes. Knowing your strength isn't having a grip on how much work you can do. It's realizing how incredibly worthless you feel after a great day of busting ass and there's an huge list of expectations still ahead of you. That creates emptiness. No! Recognize the victory. Do all you can to never feel empty.

Bruce Lee is best known for his amazing Martial Arts skills. But he was never a master of one. Bill Gates will forever be remembered for helping to usher in the home computer generation. Was it what he mastered? What about your journey? Have you mastered something? My Martial Arts Master always informed us that it requires 100,000 repetitions in order to begin a journey of mastering something. If you are a brilliant kicker in class I don't expect you to be a great blocker or puncher. We are designed to master only one thing. Forty one years of radio. I am nowhere near what a Master Broadcaster should look and sound like. A daily writer for twenty six years and I truly expect Creative Writing teachers to rip my attempts apart. I created the podcast View From The Writing Instrument for one reason. To talk with writers. Hundreds of them. None the same. Have they mastered their skills? Those of us on this side of print might think so until you hear them personally talk about the journey. Are we supposed to be more like Bruce Lee and accomplish a lot by being just good enough? I know plenty of multi tasking hard working mind blowing people that can cover enormous amounts of space which makes others feel like they've done nothing. As we continue to grow toward the reopening of our incredibly awesome country you're gong to be challenged by a new layer of business decision maker. Thirty three million people unemployed right now. That's a ton of creative minds about to accept whatever it takes to keep their house a home. The invisible part of this present Coronavirus journey isn't the actual virus. Its how the decision makers in companies in question will handle the employee of tomorrow during their bouts with PTSD and other mental conditions they couldn't control but were totally bent into a new shape by this changing world. My wife's school provides work groups with mental professionals weekly. They're strengthening their staff without having to threaten their job. The next steps in getting over this mess to make sure you never feel empty. There'll be new measures put into place on if you need to wear a mask, have your temp checked and heavily spraying down your space. It should also include your business providing mental rebuilding at no cost. We can do this. We have what it takes. Knowing your strength isn't having a grip on how much work you can do. It's realizing how incredibly worthless you feel after a great day of busting ass and there's an huge list of expectations still ahead of you. That creates emptiness. No! Recognize the victory. Do all you can to never feel empty.

Dr. Sherr believes that Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy (HBOT) -- the administration of 100% oxygen at greater than atmospheric pressure -- is one of the most powerful ways to decreasing inflammation, accelerate wound healing, and optimise both physical and mental performance. He is one of the few HBOT providers in the USA that creates personalised treatment plans for patients that include cutting edge & dynamic HBOT protocols, adjunctive technologies, laboratory testing, and nutritional interventions. Dr. Sherr is the Director of Integrative Hyperbaric Medicine and Health Optimization at Hyperbaric Medical Solutions, in addition to operating his own independent hyperbaric consultation practice and performing in-person consultations in the San Francisco Bay Area (where he lives). Dr. Sherr aims to create access and educate all those who may benefit from HBOT through telemedicine consulting, advocacy, and education practice worldwide. I wanted to share this second episode with Dr Sherr (he was on back in episode 77) to go even deeper into the little known facts about hyperbaric oxygen therapy like making epigenetic shifts, angiogenesis, stem cell production, lymph drainage and how it influences around 8000 genes in the body.   Hyperbaric oxygen  therapy was a major component in my mother, Isobel's rehabilitation after a devastating brain injury over 4 years ago. Isobel was left with hardly any higher functioning, the brain damage was so severe she was unable to control her body in any meaningful fashion, had virtually no memory, no speech and was let in the . stage of a toddler at the age of 74. But after three months in hospital and after months studying hyperbaric oxygen therapy and searching for somewhere to get her access to it I was lucky enough to find a chamber to use.  What followed was in my opinion nothing short of miraculous. and now after thousands of hours of training, combined with supplementation and diet changes and over 250 hyperbaric sessions later. Mum is completely normal again, can walk, read, write, do all her normal daily duties and is living a full life again, her doctor saying is a one in a million comeback story. This is why I was so excited to get one of the worlds leading experts on this therapy to speak on my podcast and to explain much clearer  and better than I ever could, just what the mechanisms of HBOT are and the benefits, limitations and research going into this area of medicine.   My book "Relentless" which is out now on my website and everywhere good books are sold shares our journey with hyperbaric among other adjunctive therapies.   We would like to thank our sponsors for this show: For more information on Lisa Tamati's programs, books and documentaries please visit www.lisatamati.com   For Lisa's online run training coaching go to https://www.lisatamati.com/page/runni... Join hundreds of athletes from all over the world and all levels smashing their running goals while staying healthy in mind and body.   Lisa's Epigenetics Testing Program https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epige... measurement and lifestyle stress data, that can all be captured from the comfort of your own home   For Lisa's Mental Toughness online course visit: https://www.lisatamati.com/page/minds...   Lisa's third book has just been released. It's titled "Relentless - How A Mother And Daughter Defied The Odds" Visit: https://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ for more Information   ABOUT THE BOOK: When extreme endurance athlete, Lisa Tamati, was confronted with the hardest challenge of her life, she fought with everything she had. Her beloved mother, Isobel, had suffered a huge aneurysm and stroke and was left with massive brain damage; she was like a baby in a woman's body. The prognosis was dire. There was very little hope that she would ever have any quality of life again. But Lisa is a fighter and stubborn. She absolutely refused to accept the words of the medical fraternity and instead decided that she was going to get her mother back or die trying. This book tells of the horrors, despair, hope, love, and incredible experiences and insights of that journey. It shares the difficulties of going against a medical system that has major problems and limitations. Amongst the darkest times were moments of great laughter and joy. Relentless will not only take the reader on a journey from despair to hope and joy, but it also provides information on the treatments used, expert advice and key principles to overcoming obstacles and winning in all of life's challenges. It will inspire and guide anyone who wants to achieve their goals in life, overcome massive obstacles or limiting beliefs. It's for those who are facing terrible odds, for those who can't see light at the end of the tunnel. It's about courage, self-belief, and mental toughness. And it's also about vulnerability... it's real, raw, and genuine. This is not just a story about the love and dedication between a mother and a daughter. It is about beating the odds, never giving up hope, doing whatever it takes, and what it means to go 'all in'. Isobel's miraculous recovery is a true tale of what can be accomplished when love is the motivating factor and when being relentless is the only option.   Here's What NY Times Best Selling author and Nobel Prize Winner Author says of The Book: "There is nothing more powerful than overcoming physical illness when doctors don't have answers and the odds are stacked against you. This is a fiercely inspiring journey of a mother and daughter that never give up. It's a powerful example for all of us." —Dr. Bill Andrews, Nobel Prize Winner, author of Curing Aging and Telomere Lengthening.   "A hero is someone that refuses to let anything stand in her way, and Lisa Tamati is such an individual. Faced with the insurmountable challenge of bringing her ailing mother back to health, Lisa harnessed a deeper strength to overcome impossible odds. Her story is gritty, genuine and raw, but ultimately uplifting and endearing. If you want to harness the power of hope and conviction to overcome the obstacles in your life, Lisa's inspiring story will show you the path." —Dean Karnazes, New York Times best selling author and Extreme Endurance Athlete.   Transcript of the Podcast:   Speaker 1: (00:01) Welcome to pushing the limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa [inaudible] brought to you by lisatamati.com. Speaker 2: (00:12) Well hi everyone. Fantastic to have you back again on pushing the limits today. I have a fantastic interview with Dr. Scott Scheer, who is a physician out of the United States. Now Scott, Dr. Scott has been on my podcast previously and it was one of the most popular episodes, so I'm really, really privileged to have him back on. Yeah, Dr. Scott is a pioneer in health optimization medicine and in this episode we really going and doing a deep dive into one of my favorite therapies, hyperbaric oxygen therapy, but we're also going to be talking about meta below mix in the hollow biome. Yeah, Dr. Scott is a position certified in the health optimization medicine and in hyperbaric same time and he uses both of these protocols and adjunctive technologies. Uh, he's a father of four and he's an incredible, uh, really outside of the box thinker and I love his approach to his work. Speaker 2: (01:04) So I'm hope you enjoy this episode with Dr. Scott shoe. Just a reminder, my book [inaudible] is now out. And, uh, my story with my mom was all, uh, one of the cornerstone therapies was hyperbaric oxygen therapy and I was, it was wonderful to connect with Dr. Scott about that previously and to learn all about hyperbaric. So I hope you enjoy this interview and if you want to grab the book while you're at it, he don't have it to my website, lisatamati.com and there was a lengthier under the shop for the books, so check them all out. Thanks for listening and we'll see you again soon. And now over to Dr. Scott. Well, hi everyone. Lisa Tamati here and very excited to have you on board again today for an exciting episode. I have Dr. Scott Scheer with me who is a hyperbaric specialist, uh, from the States and he is, uh, had been on my show before and he is now coming back on here. It was one of the most popular episodes on the whole show. So I'm really, really excited to have Dr. Scott Beck and he's actually sitting in his own hyperbaric chamber right now and doing the interview from inside his own hyperbaric. So Dr. Scott, how are you doing? Speaker 3: (02:16) I'm doing well. Can you hear me okay, Lisa? Speaker 2: (02:18) Yeah, it's not too bad. We might have to ramp up the volume when we're doing the either thing, but we'll give it a go. See, here we go. Okay, Speaker 3: (02:26) sounds good. Speaker 2: (02:27) I'm sorry. Speaker 3: (02:31) Yes, I'm in my own chamber. I, um, I have my own mild hyperbaric units. Mild hyperbaric therapy is defined as hyperbaric therapy, less than or 1.3 atmospheres or more superficial than that. Um, and so these chambers go to about 15 feet of seawater equivalent. Um, and these chambers are approved for home use. Um, and I use them for a lot of different reasons, but personally I use it for just overall health and wellness, cognitive capacity enhancements, muscle recovery, jet lag, and a couple of other other indications. The chamber is nice because it's a triangular type of chamber, which means that you can actually sit up in it and not have to lie down completely. And I've been using it a lot these days, given pandemics and all those kinds of things and doing my best to stay healthy along with everybody else. At least a lot of other people that are not eating junk food all the time. Speaker 2: (03:32) Yeah. And we'll get into that a little bit later that year. Um, no amount of boy hacking all out to a good dog bed diet. So we definitely need to focus on that. But, so Dr. Scott, so I have my own hyperbaric chamber. I go in and every pretty much, you know, three or four times a week at least my one goes up to 1.5 atmospheres. And, but you also have a clinic that goes, uh, has, um, hyperbaric chambers that go, uh, too high up precious. Can you explain a little bit difference between the mild hyperbaric and the medical grade, if you like hyperbaric sort of things? Speaker 3: (04:09) Yeah, sure. So hyperbaric therapy in the United States is approved for 14 different conditions and all of those conditions have been studied at two atmospheres or greater. And so all the medical conditions for hyperbaric therapy cannot be treated in mild hyperbaric units. They can only be treated in, in units that are more medical grade. The medical grade chambers go down. Uh, there's different types of medical grade chambers. The most common, it's called a motto place or a single unit occupancy chamber. That chamber goes down to somewhere between 2.4 to three atmospheres of pressure. Three atmospheres of pressure is the equivalent of 66 feet of seawater. What's interesting about 66 feet of sea water equivalent is that when they, that's actually where they've done studies showing that at that level you no longer need red blood cells in circulation to get enough oxygen diffused into the plasma where the liquid of your blood at that level and maintain your physiologic functions. Speaker 3: (05:10) So it's a, it's a significant amount of oxygen that we can get into circulation. And so, um, what we're doing in a chamber is obviously driving more oxygen into circulation. And that's kind of like the quick and dirty of what's happening. When you go in there. The heart chambers are typically going down to deeper pressures, um, two atmospheres or above. Mmm. And then the soft chambers, um, depending on the type of chamber you have, it could go down to 1.3. Some of them go to 1.5. It depends on the country and the location. Well, I think what's more important for people is not that type of chamber really. But because some soft chambers can actually go to very deep pressures and heart chamber go to any pressure, they can go to superficial chamber pressures and they can go to deep pressure. What's most important, I think is knowing is treated or what the difference in treatments is depending on the pressure. Speaker 3: (06:03) Mmm. We think of neurologic pressure. So brain and spinal cord related pressures being somewhere between 1.3 and 2.0 and we think of things outside the central nervous system, soft tissue, um, and sort of overall hello. Outside of the central nervous system. A 2.0 and greater in general. No. From a like detoxification, lymphatic perspective, you can get benefits at both at 1.3 to 2.0 along with a 2.0 or greater. And from a STEM cell release perspective, the further down you go, the deeper you go, the more STEM cells that are released. So the indications fall into those two basic categories of neurologic versus non neurologic conditions. Although you can modulate the salt chambers to help you with some non neurologic conditions as well. You are getting more oxygen in circulation, right? So you are getting the ability to enhance your flow of oxygen to tissues regardless of the chamber and regardless of the pressure actually, although some pressure is needed. Mmm. And then you are helping with detoxification as well, no matter what pressures you're using, Speaker 2: (07:19) but it's more optimal at the, at the higher pressures. So, Speaker 3: (07:23) okay. Speaker 2: (07:24) So for neuro separate brain injury, like um, you know, not my story with my mum, um, 1.5 was what, you know, we were recommended is an ideal, uh, pressure for, for brain injury. So, so you're saying the neurological, the problems that people have actually better at the lower or the a then this oppression. So I should say, and for things like, um, Mmm diabetic wounds or um, healing injuries, uh, boons, that type of thing at a higher pressure would be more beneficial, but, or hyperbaric will help with detoxification. And was the limps and speeding up the healing hearing properties, the STEM cell release, is that higher when it's deeper, uh, pressure or high pressure? Speaker 3: (08:11) Yes. Yeah. The deeper you go, the more STEM cells are released because it's related to how much oxygen is being infused. The more oxygen infused, the more STEM cells get released. It's a, it's kind of a, it's kind of, it's a direct relationship. Speaker 2: (08:27) So do you know the, um, so I remember from the last podcast you're saying, you know, up to 12 times the amount of oxygen can be taken up into the body. Um, it is sad. So it says three atmospheres, there'll be 12 times in it at one and a half atmospheres. That would be, I don't know, somewhere in that for some six, seven times the amount of Mmm. Uh, oxygen that's diffusing. Now, the difference with a hyperbaric is actually, you know, like people will say, well, you know, I put an SPO two of my little thing on my finger and it says I'm 98%. I'm saturated with oxygen, right? How do I get more oxygen in? So what is the different mechanism between normal barracks, uh, pressure and hyperbaric pressure? Speaker 3: (09:16) Yeah, it's a question I get a lot, Lisa, and I'm sure you get it a lot too. So a pulse oximeter, it's something you put it on your finger and that measures the arterial oxygen saturation of your red blood cells. So you, red blood cells are what typically carry oxygen from your lungs. When you take a deep breath [inaudible] after going out of your lungs, as they go through the rest of your body and they to release oxygen so that you can make energy without oxygen, you cannot make ATP, which is the energy, energy currency of, of our body. And so you're right, our red blood cell carrying capacity for oxygen at sea level, he's actually quite good. That's when you put a pulsox machine on your finger. You get 97 to a hundred percent if you have normal lungs. So hyperbaric therapy is going to saturate any more sites on the red blood cells where they can carry oxygen. Speaker 3: (10:08) If there is like 97% sites, I already occupied those extra 3% will be occupied. But what's actually happening and the power of hyperbaric oxygen therapy in its ability to change this gaseous form of oxygen into a liquid form that actually diffuses directly into the plasma or the liquid of our blood and the liquid of our blood has very little oxygen in it at sea level. And we can diffuse up to 12 times or actually even more than that, a deeper pressures than three ATA, oxygen in circulation. And it's that extra oxygen you cannot get without having also been under pressure at the same time as getting more oxygen as well. Speaker 2: (10:49) So then this is really powerful when it comes to say injuries where uh, there's been a blockage to the blood supply to a certain area so that whether that's from a heart attack or a stroke or you know, Mmm. Or even as I presume with crush injuries and certain things like this we are not able to get, Lisa was a blocked in some way that you can actually perfuse the area around the injury with oxygen despite it not going through the blood vessels. Is that, is there a correct way of explaining it or Speaker 3: (11:25) know? The way I like to think about it is that you have all this oxygen that's now in circulation and it's kind of like oxygen, just like osmosis. We'll go to the area where there's less of it, so the more oxygen you have in a blood vessel, the more of that oxygen is going to get into the tissue around the blood vessel so you don't have to have as much vascular density potentially to get oxygen to that tissue because we've found a few, so much oxygen inside of that tissue bed itself that it could potentially factor as a way of saving tissue in the acute setting. So like you said, like the acute ischemia is the acute hypoxia is or low oxygen safe that happened with a heart attack. Well you have a lack of a blood flow in a coronary artery or a stroke. Speaker 3: (12:09) We have lack of blood flow, an artery in the brain or a spinal cord injury. When you have arteries that are actually broken you can actually get more oxygen to that tissue because you can diffuse more into the tissue bed around the injured blood vessel. It was also good is that when you have an acute injury there's also going to be a lot of swelling and actually injury too. The vessels that are going to cause leakage of that fluid and swelling. And actually in the chamber you actually constrict down blood vessels a little bit and that constriction actually helps you and prevents some of that fluid from releasing. And for some of that swelling to happen, even though you have this constriction of the blood vessel, you've also net had a significant delivery of oxygen to that tissue regardless because we've had all of that oxygen diffuse into the plasma. So Mmm, oxygen carrying capacity in normal settings without pressure is only dependent on how many red blood cells you have. But in a chamber we're pressurizing your body, pressurizing your breath or your whole body really. But when you take a deep breath, that pressurized oxygen is driven into the plasma or your liquid of the blood and that liquid of your, of your blood, it can go much further and diffuse much further into tissues outside of blood vessels as well. Speaker 2: (13:26) So for an example was, um, you know, my mom's story with the aneurysm. If I had managed, and of course at this stage I didn't know anything about Harbor about when this first happened, but if I'd been able to get her into a chamber immediately after the event occurred, uh, the cause the inflammation obviously with a broad love and Brian tissue mixing causes inflammation in the skull. Yeah. Um, that would have been hugely beneficial if I've managed to get her in a few times immediately after the event. So after she was stable, yes. Obviously, yeah, Speaker 3: (14:03) being stable. So I have some people, I just like to be very clear, you should go to a hospital. Did you have a stroke or you will have a heart attack and don't go to your local hyperbaric provider once you're stabilized. Yes. Um, there are some indications that the sooner that you can get treated in a chamber, the more oxygen you can get to your brain to a certain degree. I mean, not huge amounts. You don't want to go down to three atmospheres because that could be dangerous for your brain, but oxygen to your brain, oxygen to your heart after an acute event is going to save tissue in your brain and save tissue in your heart. [inaudible] they've even done studies looking at people that are getting bypass procedures, coronary bypass procedures. And if they're doing this, they get into a hyperbaric chamber right before, um, they save tissue in their heart so they, they have more harder to function, have better neurologic function after a coronary artery bypass grafting procedure. Speaker 2: (14:56) Wow. So, so Dr. Scott, like why is there any place in the world where this is offered in the ICU? You know, in the acute setting where people are coming in with major injuries or strokes or heart attacks or this type of thing where it's actually used as a part of the syrupy and if not, why not? Why is it not everywhere? Speaker 3: (15:17) Well to do acute care, hyperbaric therapy, it takes very specialized capability because if you're going to be in there with attendance or you have IVs going and you have others drugs you need to give, it's, it's definitely a specialized service. Um, in Japan, China and Russia, it's used much more in the acute setting than it is in the United States. The U S it has, and it still is used for acute trauma. So if you have like a traumatic ischemia, like we have a traumatic injury to one of your soft tissue areas, for example, it can be used. Um, but in general, um, it's not used as often in the trauma setting in the, in the U S as it is in other countries, especially China, Russia and Japan. Speaker 2: (16:05) Right. Okay. And it's not, it's not used here either and it's not even approved. Is it on the, in America, is it an approved treatment for, um, neurological events? Speaker 3: (16:18) There's no neurologic indication that's covered right now in the United States. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 2: (16:23) Even though it is right, Speaker 3: (16:24) I'm going to change that. And I mean the one that has the had the most, I think research behind it in the most interest is traumatic brain injury and concussion. There is definitely some good studies from across the world. M a U S showing how hyperbaric therapy can help people recover from concussion and traumatic brain injuries, which is another name for concussion really either in the short term and like from an acute concussion or even from hello term symptoms that may not go away. Speaker 2: (16:53) Yeah, absolutely. So we were talking about like there's different things here that are going on. You've got, it's detecting the inflammation is producing more STEM cells. It's a, it's Oh, sorry. Knocking off senescent cells isn't it? Which are your old cells that are not doing much of anything. Speaker 3: (17:15) Yeah, they're called the zombie cells. Right. So, um, can we, I like to think about hyperbaric therapy is, is relatively simply, there's four things that we do in the chamber. The first thing we do is we reverse hypoxia. We've been already talking about that. We reverse low oxygen States by getting more oxygen into circulation and over the longterm a protocol of hyperbaric therapy, create new blood vessels in those areas that have been injured. We're going to play games and then maintain the ability to get blood flow to that tissue over the long term. That's the first thing, reversing hypoxia. The second thing is decreasing inflammation. It does that immediately by constructing down the blood vessels like we talked about, but also over the longterm. It has the ability to shift our epigenetics, change how our body, our DNA expresses certain proteins that are responsible for inflammation. Speaker 3: (18:07) Things like TNF alpha, I'll one L six I'll eight and others. The third thing it does is releases a massive number of STEM cells. Those STEM cells all released throughout the body and they hone or they go to areas where there is more inflammation or there's more need for STEM cells to go to those areas and regenerate them. The next thing that happens is that there is, especially in higher oxygen environments, we have the ability to kill bugs, kill bacteria, fungus, and potentially even viruses. A deeper pressures in the chamber. So senescence cell populations look like they do get decreased or they do go down. We're not exactly sure how that's happening. We don't know if that's happening because those cells are being regenerated or if those cells are being killed off and either way is good for the body really. Because when they stick around and they're not replicating, and there we have a high association with cancer, with degenerative disease. Yeah. With aging overall. So senescent cells aren't cool in general. So we want those to go away. Uh, we don't know if that's because new STEM cells are coming and just the other ones are dying or if we're now getting more oxygen to the tissue. And so those cells are getting enough oxygen to regenerate their mitochondria and start making energy more effectively, which is where we make energy in ourselves. We're not sure. Speaker 2: (19:39) So the senescent cells are basically cells that have had past their use by date really. And they're not doing much of anything except causing trouble in the body, causing inflammation, causing changes, perhaps even, uh, in closing cancers and so on. Um, so it's really good to be getting rid of those. You mentioned the, um, I was six. Yeah. I are six from memory as one of the ones that they talking about in the Cobra, uh, scenario a that that's so interleukin six is, can you explain, um, I mean obviously we don't know whether it's good for coven Mmm. But is this potentially something that if someone has the Corona virus that they can potentially look at doing to stop the cytokine storm that's actually killing the people? Speaker 3: (20:30) Well, we're actually looking into it now. I have several colleagues around the United States that are starting with clinical studies to look at how hyperbaric therapy I can work on two fronts. It can work as a way to get more oxygen to the system as we've been describing it, because one of the things that's happening in covert is that they're getting very, very hypoxic. They're getting very low oxygen levels and we think this has something to do with destruction of the red blood cells or the inability of red blood cells to carry oxygen as effectively. So again, we can bypass that by being in a chamber like I am right now and pressurizing around you. And then as a result of that pressurization, I'm getting more oxygen in circulation regardless of how many red blood cells I have working or not, how many hemoglobin molecules I have working or not. Speaker 3: (21:16) So that's one area that we're looking at is how hyperbaric therapy can work. The other area that we're looking at is as, as as an anti-inflammatory. So it does have the ability to downregulate those inflammatory cytokines, one of them being IO six. So maybe helping with that cytokine storm at the same time. We also know for other studies over the years that hyperbaric therapy is and immuno modulator, it helps the immune system function better. Um, so we think in the early part of the process, maybe if coven 19 we don't know yet for sure, but it may help to support the immune system and allow it to sort of weather the storm better as opposed to not weathering it as well. So it's a lot of conjecture right now, Lisa, you know, we don't know for sure how it works or if it's going to work, but there are definitely some of my colleagues around the U S and around the world that are looking at how hyperbaric therapy might be a helpful adjunct to conventional care. Speaker 3: (22:16) Maybe prevent people from getting intubated or being on ventilators, which would be a great thing. And so they're looking at that as another having you, and they're also looking at pressurizing the hoods, the hoods that you were in a hyperbaric chamber as a way to get more oxygen into the system without being an hyperbaric chamber as well. So yeah, I've posted a little bit about this on my Instagram because I just find these really intriguing. There is actually one company that's looking to retrofit airplanes. Airplanes are usually pressurized at 8,000 feet above sea level, so they're actually hypoxic environments. There's lower oxygen on and off on an airplane. That's your breathing as opposed to being at sea level. Wow. But what they can do is that they can reverse their pressurization and actually pressurize it. Like a hyperbaric environment. No, you couldn't fly with a plane like this because it would be too heavy, but you can keep it on the ground and and make it a hyperbaric chamber. And you know those oxygen masks that come from the ceiling already, right? So they could use those oxygen masks as a way to get more oxygen into circulation. So this is just one of those sort of crazy ideas. But it's a really interesting idea where you can actually retrofit airplanes to be hyperbaric chambers. Wow. Speaker 2: (23:31) Because that's one of the reasons we get jet lag, isn't it? Because we're, we're, we're at this, um, you know, equivalent of 8,000 feet or 2,500 meters. Mmm. Right? So we're just, we were actually coming out with a bit of an altitude situation where you've actually not got enough oxygen and that's adding to the fact that you've been traveling for how many hours and sitting still and not oxygenating. Anyway, Speaker 3: (23:55) there's the circadian rhythm piece of it, but you are at low oxygen levels and you are at higher risk for jet lag and infection too, so that's why you have a higher risk for infection when you fly. Not so much because of the sanitation on the plane. Although yeah, the air itself on a plane isn't the cleanest. Yeah, and I'm hoping that one of the things that happens with this whole covert thing is that the air on planes becomes cleaner than it is now. That more is coming from the outside of the plane and be less being research related, but in in in essence the low oxygen environment is, is definitely not helping from your health perspective and like the Dreamliners. Some of the newer planes are pressurized to 6,000 feet above. See instead of the 8,000 you said it helps with jet lag and you add on circadian rhythm changes or helping urge on your circadian rhythms to be in the, the times when you're going on it's going to help significantly and that's what new plans are trying to do and that's a new health. Your hotel rooms are also trying to do as well, new hotel rooms with new lighting and things like that that are happening, which is super cool. But in essence, yes, the airplane itself is a hypo H Y P O Barrick environments. And we can make it and retrofit it to be a hyperbaric environment as well, which, so if you have any extra seven 30 sevens hanging around, let me know and we can work on it. Speaker 2: (25:14) There you go. We can got Richard put them together. That sounds really good because flying is one of a really big danger to our health and we've, we've seen the effects of covert going through airplanes, you know, all that sort of, um, um, I just wanted to, to touch on a couple of years, NGO Genesis. Can you explain what angiogenesis is and what is actually happening there in regards to Hochberg? Speaker 3: (25:42) Yeah. So angiogenesis is the creation of new blood vessels. And in a hyperbaric chamber, that acute infusion of, of oxygen, it's going to flood the body with more oxygen, but it's not going to create new blood vessels. What happens after a protocol call of hyperbaric therapy is that we have these epigenetic shifts, we have these shifts and expression of DNA and that DNA expression is shifted in a way that more blood vessels are created because of some of the various factors that are released under pressure and under a high oxygen conditions. Those are things like VEGF, which is a very common blood vascular growth factor and others. And we have these new blood vessels that form and they tend to form in areas where there is hypoxic tissue or there is low oxygen in tissue. They tend to form an areas where there have been injuries in the past. And so these new blood vessels which are created allow the sustainability of the results on the effects of hyperbaric therapy to be a longer term play. Speaker 2: (26:43) So if you have a heart problem, so you have to ha, you know, you've got a blockage in one of your, your arteries. Um, is this a possible way to get around that blockage without surgery in conjunction with surgery over the longer term enough stations here. Speaker 3: (27:01) So we're talking about collateralization of blood vessels, which which would, what I mean by that is that that's the medical term of you basically create collaterals around blockages and that's what a bypass is, right? A bypass procedure is creating ways to go around blockages. It's like, it's like going off the on ramp and taking the service road like around traffic, uh, that stopped and then going back on the service road back onto the freeway after the traffic is over kind of deal. That's a good way to describe it. What a collateral would be like a collateral road. And so hyperbaric therapy can help you create those. And we don't know about the heart specifically though because we haven't done the studies to know. But we do know from the studies that have been done that there is an increase in vascular density in the heart. There's an increase in vascular density in the brain after a protocol of therapy. And so as a result of that, you will have the ability to get more oxygen to tissue because you have more density of blood vessels. No, we haven't done the study looking at people with blocked blood vessels to see what happens under hyperbaric conditions. It just hasn't happened. But the conjecture that we have is that it would potentially help without collateralization. It goes off roads, service road kinds of ideas. Speaker 2: (28:18) Yeah. Going around, I heard, um, that DHEA is an interesting one for the main, at the uh, uh, erectile dysfunction can be helped with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, creating new new blood PA angiogenesis for that sort of a problem. Is that correct? Speaker 3: (28:35) Yeah, it's the same deal. I mean the, the physiology of hyperbaric therapy, it goes everywhere. Your, your full body is oxygenated. So decreasing inflammation, reversing hypoxia, the STEM cell release and killing bugs happens anywhere and that includes regenerating blood vessels in, in a penis or and uh, in areas around the heart or in areas that have degenerated otherwise. And so they did a study looking at erectile dysfunction in males that were relatively healthy and their erectile function improved after, I think it was 6,600 hyperbaric chamber treatments. And so that's new blood vessels that are getting created, a new blood vessel, low vascular flow and the penis. And so we have indications that happens in women as well with, with vaginal flow. But we don't have the studies to show that. Right. Often we'll get the, uh, the feedback from women and men that sex life is better in, in hyperbaric. There's people that have gotten hyperbaric therapy. Speaker 2: (29:38) That's a good reason. Speaker 3: (29:40) Yeah. Speaker 3: (29:41) Well, yeah, there are some studies on infertility already, uh, in helping with fertility because it helps getting it a deeper pressure helped, helps with the uterine lining. The uterine lining itself will, um, we'll get thicker under hyperbaric conditions we think. And then as a result of that, there's a higher chance for the embryo, the embryo to be implanted. And so if you have a thinner uterine lining, you can pick it up potentially in the chamber. So this is used already in Russia and in China as a fertility treatments actually quite commonly in the West and the U S it's not very common. Speaker 2: (30:19) No, I haven't come across the same one. You know, you the troubles with fertility for years. [inaudible] um, I'm going to get in there even more often now. That's not the reason. Speaker 3: (30:31) Just to be clear though, this is at the deeper pressures. Speaker 2: (30:34) Oh yeah. Speaker 3: (30:34) It's shown effect. So this is at like two atmospheres, 2.4. Speaker 2: (30:38) The 1.5 why won't quite cut it so that, that sort of a problem. It probably can't hurt Kenneth. Speaker 3: (30:44) I don't think it would hurt. No. I mean, but there are certain things that I don't recommend going at less pressure. Uh, and that I'm pretty emphatic about. So the things that I don't feel are likely well-treated at 1.3 are any open wounds. Any open wounds really need to be treated at deeper pressures. If you have any ongoing infections. I don't, I feel for the most part, that 1.3 atmosphere is enough. Really. I see a significant benefit unless it's an it, a bug that does not like oxygen environments. And then in that case maybe, but the deeper pressures would likely still be better. Yeah. If you have any chemical sensitivities, these chambers can sometimes make them worse because they're made out of a plastic material. And that plastic material, uh, does off gas to some degree. And I do find that some of my patients that are highly sensitive, so plastics and to chemicals, uh, will not feel good in these kinds of chambers either. Speaker 3: (31:46) If you have any of the FDA approved conditions in my country, I don't recommend using a soft chamber either. Those should be done in deep pressures. The only approved indication for these chambers, assault chambers, that's insurance coverage in the U S is acute mountain sickness. So you go up a mountain too fast, you get signs of altitude sickness, you can get into one of these chambers and you can feel better pretty quickly. And that's, you know, one of the reasons why I have some interests in, Oh, there has been interested in coven 19 specifically because they're thinking that some of the physiology is similar. Yeah. Altitude tickets, how people are, how responding to the virus. Speaker 2: (32:30) So, so, so most of those, um, so since only the only thing that, uh, Molotov America is approved for is mountain, even though there are, but, um, from, from, yep. Okay. Speaker 3: (32:45) There are studies to show that these pressures can be beneficial for brain related conditions. Yes, yes. Speaker 2: (32:52) Yep. Mmm. That's interesting. So, so oxygen oxidative stress was the next thing I wanted to touch on. So, so w when we think of oxidative stress, we think that that's a negative thing. Generally. You know, we should, we need to get rid of the oxidants in our body and we need antioxidants and we need to detox and so on. So why isn't this case oxidative stress? Not a bad thing. What is it [inaudible] is it an oxidative stress? Speaker 3: (33:19) Well, there's a lot of things in life that are good for us that are oxidative stress. One of the most common, hopefully his exercise exercise creates inflammation and oxidative stress. Body responds with the ability to produce antioxidants. And then as a result of those anti-oxidants being released, the body has a way of compensating and then growing stronger. And that's what's happening inside a hyperbaric chamber. Every single thing that's happening almost in a hyperbaric environment is because of oxidative stress. The only thing that's not as a result of oxidative stress is purely the oxygen infusion that's getting more oxygen to the cells and that's allowing more energy to be produced, but everything else, of course, that's very important, but everything else, the oxidative stress causes those epigenetic changes that are happening on the DNA. It causes is that STEM cell release, it causes that inflammatory downregulation. Speaker 3: (34:17) It causes those that vasoconstriction, that constriction of blood vessels that could be injured during an acute event, so it's oxidative stress that initially spurs the system to have a cataclysmic cataclysmic. Yup. Okay. That sounds almost like like a catastrophe. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Basically, you know, it's a huge catalyst for change. Cataclysmic and catalysts are not the same word, but I had a huge catalyst for change. But what happens is that the body, just like with exercise, has a significant ability to have a reactive antioxidant search and that antioxidant surge, it happens and equates or balances out all that oxidative stress or the oxidative stress that we gave the body initially. So it's important for me when I'm thinking about hyperbaric protocols, I think about the person in front of me, I think is this person, somebody that has the ability to have a re the reactive antioxidant surge to balance out that oxidative stress. Because if you're not healthy, if you are sick, if you're inflamed, if you have lots of chronic conditions you made, do be depleted in various things that could make it difficult for you to do this. And that's why I'm very emphatic when I can and when there's time to consider a foundational of cellular health, looking at vitamins, minerals, nutrients, antioxidant levels, looking at signs of gut dysbiosis and immune system function to understand how well somebody is going to do in the chamber before they get in. Speaker 2: (35:54) So that, that's a perfect segue because I wanted to go into, um, the whole foundational health, uh, and, and, and also adjunctive therapies too. Hyperbaric. Um, so it started with a couple of things like Mmm. You know, like taking things like vitamin C infusions before going into hyperbaric, uh, doing the keto diet or exogenous ketones in combination with hyperbaric. Mmm. And then looking as the next step and the conversation into the foundational things which really need to be addressed as well. Um, so they start with it junked of therapies that will benefit from a hyperbaric in combination. Speaker 3: (36:40) Sure. So yeah, that's a good segue I feel before getting into adjunctive, it's important I think to describe that I jumped in. Therapies can definitely synergize together, but it's really important I feel to have a good sense of your own foundational biology before you start stacking therapies on top of each other. Because synergistic tools that are both potentially oxydative, IB, vitamin C, and I can direct therapy, it can be very helpful. However, if you don't have the capacity to physiologically benefit from it or potentially have side effects as a result of the too much oxidative stress, it could be detrimental. So when I think about stacking therapies, I often try to take it a step back and say, okay, let's look at that foundation assessment first. Like your vitamins, your minerals, your nutrients, you're announcing the levels. That's the reprogram that I have that I, that I work with called health optimization medicine, which was founded by a colleague of mine named dr Ted Archer, COSO. Speaker 3: (37:43) And I work as the C Oh of our nonprofit that's educating doctors on how to do this. And I also have my own clinic concierge virtual clinic, really in the Bay area in San Francisco, working with clients across the U S across the world. So once I've done that, once I've looked at that foundational biology, then I think about therapies that can stack on top of hyperbarics or with it. One of the things that I think about is a low level light there. There'll be a low level light technologies because lights have the ability to get more oxygen to tissue by dilating the blood vessels in that area. And so if you're dilating various blood vessels in an area, you can then get more oxygen to that area. So that's one way for some specific spectrums of light to help. Um, infrared light is also really good for detoxification. Speaker 3: (38:33) So I often combine hyperbaric therapy with detox publication strategies and one of them being infrared light, I think about post electromagnetic field technologies. Wow. Those are micro circulatory pulses of electromagnetic fields that can help with circulation. And then increasing circulation is going to help you benefit in a hyperbaric chamber as well because you're getting more tissue oxygenated because there's more tissue that's dilated in blood vessels. And so we can help there. I also think about using various technologies inside of a hyperbaric chamber. If you're in a software like this one because then now you can bring in things that are portable and then you can do brain training like neurofeedback for example. And you can do other types of brain training and using computers or iPads or whatever, doing certain things to sort of work on your multitasking capabilities and, and the like. And you can do a lot of other different things. But those are some of the things that come to mind. Speaker 2: (39:31) Wow. This is what really getting into the whole, you know, optimizing in, in high performance and being able to, to stack the different biohacks if you like. And the different things on top of each other. I'm very interested in the infrared light therapy and um, have some of the products from vital light. Um, again, something that I've used in conjunction with, uh, for mums rehab. Mmm. And uh, very interested in the PME if I haven't had a chance to, to go down that route, but very keen cost prohibitive to have that at home unfortunately. Um, so there are so many amazing things in the biohacking world if you like, where we can actually, uh, sat to look with relatively low risk, um, the lights therapy. Um, it's an interesting one. Also the detrimental effects of blue light coming from our computer screens, stuff like that. Speaker 2: (40:28) Um, yeah and that's um, you know, probably a topic for another day. But what I did want to go into is as you work with dr Ted COSO who I would love to get on the show as well. He's amazing. Um, so dr Ted, uh, is from the Philippines and he has a um, uh, he has health optimization, Madison and so you are the CEO of that company. Can you tell us, well dr tin has created his own own hole. What would you call it, system of looking at so meter below mix the hollow biome. Can you explain what the heck those are? Cause I'm sure nobody listening to this podcast would have come across those terms yet. Sure, no problem. Speaker 3: (41:16) Yeah. So dr ten's an anti-aging doctor. He, uh, we specialize in antiaging medicine and then created his own practice that looks right. Two, I think take the best of conventional medicine. And then the best of what was under the radar in conventional medicine, which is called metabolomics, which is the field of study that we look at real time cellular metabolites. So the real time factors that are making ourselves work. And we can measure all of this. This is something that I didn't know when I was in medical school that you can actually do, but you can actually measure all of these various factors and understand how the body is making energy, how the body is processing your various foods into like from macronutrients all the way down to micronutrients, understanding how we can measure antioxidant levels. And so you can do all this. And so what Ted developed was a way to do this sort of like in the 80 20 framework, which is 80% of the benefit for 20% of the testing and focusing that testing on health and not focusing on any specific disease or condition and setting that aside for the moment and, and just doing, Mmm. Speaker 3: (42:25) More testing related to health and health focus. And so the program itself has seven pillars, but they all comprise what's called the hollow biomes. H, O, L, O, B, I, O, N, T. And this is the idea that we are not just an individual in a population, but we're actually up population of organisms or individuals together in ourselves, in it of ourselves. So we are made up of fungus, virus, bacteria, human. And then we're also made up of the, the metabolites or the production, the toxins and the other things that are in environment. That's all happening all on our cellular level that we can see. So the idea is to create a program for people that uses all of that data that we can measure and understanding where it's coming from and then how to optimize and balance. So the first pillar is metabolomics, which is looking at the cellular data. Speaker 3: (43:25) Another one is epigenetics or looking at how our environment and how are exposures overall change how our epigenetics are or express or how our DNA is expressed through epigenetics, looking at chronobiology or circadian rhythms and how light especially affects our circadian rhythms, looking at the gut immune system. So that's our gut microbiota and in detail how our gut is a very significant indicator of our overall health and our immune health and neurologic and psychologic health are all related to our gut, just on some level looking at evolutionary biology. So the idea is that we have trade offs in our evolution that some certain traits will help us when we're younger, but actually be a detriment to us when we're older. And also how our evolutionary biology is related to our ancestry. So where our ancestry as well also indicate where we should potentially best focus our diet and our and how we change it depending on seasons, et cetera. And there's also the bioenergetics pillar, which is related to energy production, other cellular level. And that's mostly our mitochondria as well, where we're making energy and exposomics, which is the study of toxins, the toxins in our environment. But in essence, this is what we call our whole bio. And we can use about 500 or so data, measure measures to look at measures of all of these things and then create programs for our clients using those metrics and these pillars. [inaudible] really optimize health over the longterm. That's the idea. Speaker 2: (45:09) Wow. So that's just, this is, this is unsigned and something that I'm hoping to study in that in the future. Once I get through the next lot of study, it's just seems to be one Speaker 3: (45:19) the chamber you can study. Speaker 2: (45:21) I do. I was yesterday sitting in there listening to all your lectures and preparing for today's podcast. It's a brilliant way to do it and it just seems so much to learn. Mmm. And I'm very interested in dr Tibbs work and um, you know, coming to grips with it. Um, you know, we, we, we do something in our company, you know, if the genetic testing was that dr Alberto Gralise work and we're finding that absolutely. Yeah. Fascinating. Now, adding in the functional genomics into that with document's or Mohammed's work, uh, it just gives another lens at another lens to be able to look through. And the microbiome is an, is an area anyways, you know, um, you can't have one without the other. I just wish there was more hours on a day to day to deep misinformation. Speaker 3: (46:08) It's a network, Lisa. I think that's what you're going at, right? It's a network effect. Our body doesn't work in silos. You don't just have a heart, you just don't have a brain. You don't just have a gut. They all work together. It's this beautiful symphony. Mmm. Bacteria, virus cells, humans, human cells, mitochondria, which can be classified potentially as bacteria cells as well. Probably back in the day became or came from bacteria that combined with another type of cell that didn't have oxygen capabilities. And that's our, so we have all these things working together. We have hormones working together. We have chemical factories called cytokines working together, um, from a distance. Nothing has to be right next to each other to get there. We have blood vessels, we have lymphatics, we have nerves and other different types of channels to get things. So where they need to go with neurotransmitters. Speaker 3: (47:00) And so it's very difficult to just boil it down. So just a couple of things. I think where the future is going, there's a great article that I loved. It was actually, I think published about six months ago. It was at, it was actually published at Stanford, they called it the narcissism like narcissistic, right? The idea that you'll know everything about yourself, you're no your jeans, you'll know you're genomics, your proteomics, which are the proteins get from genes, you'll know your epigenomics, you'll know you're metabolomics and you will be able to use all this data to create a personalized understanding of you, your risk factors, but also what's actually happening to you right now and getting ideas of what you need to do now so that you can optimize over the longterm. The problem with just looking at genomics is that yeah, it gives you risks of what you may have, but it doesn't tell you actually what's happening. Speaker 3: (47:56) That's what metabolomics does. And so the narcissism is the idea that you have access to all this information and access to the data that's being, I studied as a result of this information too. So anyway, I think we're all gonna have those in our pocket books at some point in the next two years. It's a fascinating to be able to have all of that and to be able to look through these different lenses and to look at the person as a whole. And I think that's where, um, you know, allopathic medicine has had its limitations and that every specialty is very siloed in, in not necessarily communicating with. Right. Hmm. It's still too siloed and the brain does a work independently of the knee and the, you know, whatever the case might be. Mmm. Is it interconnected, focused on, in the past I'm saying would that would be a fear? Speaker 3: (48:52) Well, because as human beings, we try to simplify things as much as possible. There's very good reasons for that. Um, and I'm not, I'm going to be against it, but I think it's important that you have certain people that specialized in organs and do the work that they do and be very, very good at it. But it's like not having a primary care doctor, I'm just going to see a specialist. If you're just in the conventional world, what's going to happen is that you just get opinions in the very singular lens of that particular organ system. So it doesn't look at the big picture. And then you look outside the conventional system and you have to think about this larger, this larger understanding to really get a good holistic, comprehensive plan I feel of of how to maintain your health over the longterm. Cause if you're just looking at, I want to optimize my heart function, I want optimize my, my brains function. Speaker 3: (49:48) It's like, well what about your gut? You know, what about your antioxidant levels? What about your, see, what about you're motion in your feet and how that's affecting your back. And there's all these other aspects of things that are important. So I tend to work with people that look at more of a holistic view of movement and holistic view of health with whatever capacity. And I do my best to help people across the world in not only hyperbaric therapy, but helping them understand the best ways to approach their goals from a holistic perspective. And so I do, I think you remember, I do virtual consultations, education, advocacy for hyperbaric across the world. And I love new challenges and ways to people. I mean, I often get the thing, it's the same things over and over again, but I love when new things kind of pop up and I go, Oh, that's super interesting. And then I get to harness the network that I've created across the world to really help people. And a lot of these things, things can be done remotely now, which is great, which is even even better given that most of us are stuck in our homes. No, anyway, at the moment, given the whole pandemic thing, I was talking to my hyperbaric chamber for a little while longer, which I'm not too sad about that. Speaker 2: (50:58) And, and you know, I find this just such a refreshing approach that you, you know, as a doctor, as a medical doctor, an internal doctor who's looked outside of the box you had on your website somewhere or some somewhere I read, you know, the box was broken a long ago. Um, you don't all to confine yourself to one way of thinking or one. Speaker 3: (51:18) There was never a box Speaker 2: (51:20) for me, Lisa. Speaker 3: (51:23) It was actually, I created a box after not having a box and then I broke it open again. I grew up because I'm the son of a chiropractor who didn't have a box. There was no such thing. And so aye created some sides of that box and some, you know, some stingy walls and pretty thin walls when I went to medical school. So I could learn what I needed to learn and then now use that information and work within that framework when necessary in the conventional framework, but also knowing that they're clumsy and that it's easy to get outside of those walls and we should, especially if there's time, if there's time to work unconventionally than work on unconventionally. If there isn't a time work eventually, but also do unconventional things if you can and you could do them side by side. And that's one of the things I specialize in too is understanding that most things in life are not mutually exclusive and you don't always have time to wait for one or the other. And sometimes you just kind of have to throw the bus at it in a very methodical way to help it. I know that's what you did with your mom. Speaker 2: (52:31) Yeah. By Sigma. Yeah. A multifaceted Chuck everything. It started them out at the wall and I'd hope some of it sticks. [inaudible] it has, Speaker 3: (52:41) yeah. Throw shit at the wall is like is the nice way of saying it for maybe the nonsense nice way of saying Speaker 2: (52:46) and, and Speaker 3: (52:47) you do that in a methodical way and that's the important, the thing that I try to emphasize is that there has to be a physiologic reason and they have to be done, at least if it's, yeah. If it's a recommendation for me, it's have to be done in a methodical way that you kind of understand what's happening. And w the factors that are playing and not just throwing shit at the wall without a plan of what shit is going at the wall. At what time Speaker 2: (53:10) and looking at the risk reward. Yeah. And then making sure that you're not, um, and you know, for someone like, so, you know, if my nature is, is very much a dive in and just have a crack and, um, you know, sometimes they have to pull myself back and go hang a minute. The risks too high here or yeah. Speaker 3: (53:29) Words. So Speaker 2: (53:31) yeah, it's really, it's, you know, it's one thing to do it on yourself. It's another thing with other people in being able to, Speaker 3: (53:40) yeah. What I was saying is that as a new Zealander, you're, you're known for your risk taking. So sometimes you gotta you gotta you gotta bring it back in a notch there. Speaker 2: (53:48) Exactly. Yup. Too much adrenaline. You can say it in my epigenetics, my ring finger is longer than my index finger. I've got too much to drink. Nice. Um, but you know, like doctor dr Cher, you know, we'll wrap up in a second, but I just wanted to thank you so much because the advocacy that you're doing, the work, the connections that you're boating, the network, you really are the worlds having age of, of, of Oh this new, whatever the says that sets happening with us as personalized health, uh, this new paradigm shifts. And um, I'm excited to get your message out there. So if any of the lessons sitting out there, we'd like to talk to Dr. Scott because obviously he's a super expert in everything from a hyperbaric right through to metabolomics and the holiday BYOD. Um, if you would like a bitch or a consultation with doctors, dr shear, where can they go doctor? Speaker 3: (54:43) So for my consultation work, my education and advocate, you can see work, I do it all through my, my website. It's integrative HBO t.com Speaker 2: (54:52) integrated kioti.com. Speaker 3: (54:54) Yeah. And then if you could also disconnect with me on Instagram to add Dr. Scott [inaudible], S C O T T S H E R R. And I also, we can set some things up through that as well if people have interest. I've been looking to post more and get more out there for people. And I know I've been doing podcasts for awhile but I feel like smaller little bits of information are helpful too given the attention deficits of our current state of affairs. So I have this like funny airplane pillow around my neck there. That's better. Okay. Um, so it was nice when I was in the other position. Um, but so those are the two major places that I do my education, advocacy and consultation. I also have a new Facebook group actually just set up called optimize H optimize HBO T with Dr. Scott Cher. Speaker 3: (55:43) And this is a really fun one. I'm looking to have a location where we all can kind of get along in the hyperbaric community. They have like the heart chamber advocates and the salt chamber advocates and you have to be able to know a lot about having barrier therapy in that, you know, very little. And my hope is to create a platform where we can kind of all come together and I'm going to be creating content and curating content with a team of people to hopefully bring, I think I hope the community together a little bit more and bring more information out there. So that's a new, that's a new one that I've just come out with. Speaker 2: (56:16) I'm definitely count me in, count me in. I'm definitely an advocate for all of us. And um, want to share, you know, um, I've just sent you actually a copy of my book. I don't know if it'll get through when the covert situation, but I really want the story to get out. Speaker 3: (56:32) Yeah. For sure. Speaker 2: (56:33) Yeah, Speaker 3: (56:34) we'll hear that story. Speaker 2: (56:35) Yeah. And that's like 250 and counting hyperbaric sessions so far. Speaker 3: (56:41) That's amazing what you and your mom has done. It's really beautiful. Speaker 2: (56:44) That is really beautiful. So Dr. Scott, thank you so much. I'll put all those links for everybody in the show notes today. I really appreciate your time. Um, it's very, very precious to me and I really, really grateful for you doing all this work. So thank you very much. Okay, Speaker 3: (57:00) and you, Lisa. Thanks for all your hard work and your advocacy and it's been my pleasure to be on your podcast, my first one in the hyperbaric chamber. Speaker 1: (57:09) That's it this week for pushing the limits. Be sure to write, review, and share with your friends and head over and visit Lisa and her team at lisatamati.com.

In this latest episode of Tuning Healthcare, Joe Ruth, the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of Sparrow Health System in Michigan discusses the impact of COVID-19 and recovery approaches in a post-pandemic world. He also talks about the importance of advancing value-based care strategies, moving from fee-for-service toward managing the entire premium dollar, and investing in the right care that drives happier physicians, happier patients, and better outcomes. “I think fee-for-service has been a challenge for a long time. When you get paid for what you do, and again, most of that payment is on the back end of very high, very expensive procedures and towards the end of life. If we can reposition the spend towards more preventative medicine, being more connected, providing greater access to our patients, the care will be better at a lower cost. There'll be a happier physician involved, there'll be a happier patient involved. … I think as healthcare providers we have an opportunity to really reset what we think is important in how best to care for patients.” – Joe Ruth, the Executive Vice President and Chief Operating Officer of Sparrow Health System In this episode, Joe and Lumeris SVP Nigel Ohrenstein discuss: • The impact of COVID-19 in Lansing, Michigan (Note: this episode was recorded on Tuesday, April 14, 2020) • How the course of the pandemic across the country illustrates how healthcare is local • A patient-centered, phased recovery approach for coming out of COVID-19 • How owning and operating a provider-sponsored Medicare Advantage plan can drive broader population health efforts • The importance of managing the entire premium dollar that allows investment in the right care, allowing for higher provider and patient satisfaction Recorded April 14, 2020 To tune in, subscribe below: Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/lumerishealthcare iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tuning-healthcare-powered-by-lumeris/id1468061183 Tune IN: https://tunein.com/podcasts/Podcasts/Tuning-Healthcare-p1270312/ Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5lSXJs7CbiHhgN93rW35fI Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/lumeris/tuning-healthcare-powered-by-lumeris

Our Giro starts on Saturday and in this episode we look ahead to what's in store during our three-week virtual journey round Italy. Richard Moore, Lionel Birnie and Daniel Friebe will be celebrating the best the Giro and Italy have to offer. The classic races, the riders, the food and wine, the culture, countryside and history. We'll look back at some memorable moments from our time covering the Giro d'Italia and hear from some familiar voices. Before that, we discuss the impact of the coronavirus-related lockdown on the riders and races, hear from Mitchelton-Scott sports director Matt White and former Giro winner Tom Dumoulin. There's also another update from Larry Warbasse and the first details of how our Friends of the Podcast can watch our first film, And So We Rode... The Cycling Podcast is supported by iwoca and Science In Sport. STARTING ON SATURDAY... OUR GIRO The Giro d'Italia may not be taking place in May this season but The Cycling Podcast will be releasing daily episodes telling the story of Our Giro. Race director Daniel Friebe has designed the route and we'll delve into our memory banks to celebrate the great race. There'll be the usual flavour of Italy along the way too... Here's our teaser (https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1240658410707849217?s=20) . RIDE OUR GIRO ON RGT Everyone can ride sections of Our Giro on the digital cycling platform RGT. Around 30 kilometres of each stage will be available to ride for a few days. Ride as much or as little as you like. RGT's platform is free for the duration of Our Giro. Download the apps from rgtcycling.com (https://www.rgtcycling.com/) now so you are ready for stage one – a short time trial in Budapest – on Saturday. Alternatively, check out http://thecyclingpodcast.com/ourgiro HOW TO BUY STACY SNYDER'S GIRO CUPS ON SATURDAY Stacy Snyder's handmade cups will go on sale on Saturday. Check our Twitter (https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast) feed for details. The cups will be available from Stacy's Etsy store (https://www.etsy.com/shop/SnyderCeramics) . Check out Stacy's website (http://www.stacysnyder.com/) too. OUR SUPPORTERS iwoca is title sponsor to The Cycling Podcast.  Over the past seven years iwoca has grown from a small start-up to one of the fastest-growing business lenders in Europe. Now they’re a team of more than 300 in London and Frankfurt working towards the goal of funding one million small businesses, including cafes, spin studios and bike shops. They can lend between £1,000 and £250,000 and make it quick and easy to get a decision. If you are interested in finding out more about what iwoca can do for small businesses go to: iwoca: Fast, fair and flexible business funding (http://iwoca.co.uk/) The Cycling Podcast is supported by Science in Sport. For a 25% discount on all your Science in Sport sports nutrition products use the code SISCP25 on www.scienceinsport.com (http://www.scienceinsport.com/) KEEP UP TO DATE Sign up for The Cycling Podcast's weekly email newsletter to keep up with what's going on behind the scenes. This week, Lionel writes about the return of Explore. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com (https://thecyclingpodcast.com/) BECOME A FRIEND OF THE PODCAST Signing up as a Friend of the Podcast has never been easier. Our new system will get you connected in just a few clicks. Why sign up? Apart from getting access to our special episodes throughout the year – there are five online already – you will be helping us to keep The Cycling Podcast's team car on the road to provide daily Grand Tour coverage. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com/subscribe (https://thecyclingpodcast.supportingcast.fm/) . We've frozen the price again – it's just £15, which will work out at less than £1 per special episode. If you want to pay more we'll send you a copy of our new book, The Grand Tour Diaries. THE GRAND TOUR DIARIES Available now at thecyclingpodcast.com/book (https://shop.visionsp.co.uk/other/TheGrandTourDiaries) . All Friends of the Podcast can get a 20% discount.

Yep, you heard us right! Get EXCITED to move your body, because we're coming at you with TONS of great exercise content. Rach and Dave (and a few others) and spending this entire week filming all the workouts your heart desires (and more!). There'll be more info about the app when it's time to release it. For now, enjoy some great stories about the filming process and the reality of leading people through a workout verus doing the workout (spoiler alert: it's SO MUCH harder to lead a workout!). Come hang out with us weekdays LIVE at 9AM CST on Facebook and Instagram, and catch up on episodes you missed here! -- Psst.... hey you, yeah - you! Have you heard? We're doing a brand new challenge, and it's called #Next90Days. Who will you be 90 days from now? How do you want to show up for your life in that time? Head on over to https://bit.ly/risenext90 to learn the deets and get started.

Bourbon and ham, is that a pairing you would expect? To be honest, neither did I. I’m a sucker for killing a plate of prosciutto at a dinner party, but thanks to our guest Steve Coomes, we’ve discovered a new love for country ham. When done right, the saltiness of the ham just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve as he talks to us about a past life as a pizza judge (yes, a pizza judge!) and then we get into hams. The diet of the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those ham legs you see hanging inside rickhouses. I think it will surprise you. Of course, it wouldn’t be complete if we didn’t do a bourbon and ham pairing. Try not to salivate too much. Show Partners: You can now buy Barrell Craft Spirits products online and have them shipped right to your door. Visit BarrellBourbon.com and click Buy Now. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Whiskey From Home: WhiskeyFromHome.com Show Notes: Bourbon in a Decanter: Does is go bad? https://advancedmixology.com/blogs/art-of-mixology/does-bourbon-go-bad-in-decanter This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about Derby. How did you get into spirits writing? Tell us about your bourbon and ham parings. Talk about your culinary background. How do you judge a pizza? Tell us about the hams you brought today. How do you come up with the pairings? Are the pigs fed a specific diet? What is the difference in the thickness of country ham and prosciutto. Tell us about curing. What sizes do hams come in? What flavors are you looking for when pairing? How much does this ham cost? Where can you buy country ham? What do you think about hams aging in rickhouses? 0:00 That country ham industry is its own worst enemy, many times and understanding what it needs to do to make itself look on par with Italian cured hams. Yeah. My wife it's charcuterie. She's like, Oh 0:11 yeah, you say it's like oh no, no way. It's like 0:28 Welcome to Episode 251 of bourbon pursuit. I hope you all are hanging in there with your quarantine here, because I know right now, mine's looking pretty Shaggy. I'm due for a haircut. But before I get to the news, I want to tell you once again about whiskey from home with the help of some of the best names in bourbon. We're doing a five and a half hour livestream of whiskey soap entertainment on May 2, starting at 12pm Eastern. So right now go to whiskey from home calm and get your free ticket there sessions on bourbon history. The best Bourbons on the shelf right now. Blind flights how to hunt for great bourbon, a virtual food pairing with Peggy no Stevens and a virtual bourbon tasting with our good friend, Fred MiniK. The shopping list for everything that you need to follow along. Is it whiskey from home calm, so go there. Check it out. It's a free event. So come and spend your Saturday afternoon with us. Now, bourbon into decanter doesn't go bad. This is a question that was asked and answered with extensive research from advanced mixology calm. After you buy a bottle of bourbon, how should it be stored? does it stay preserved for years or even decades have left on open? What about the canning of bourbon? Can it go bad then? Well, it all comes down to aeration, and without giving too much of it away. You can read all the answers to these questions to the link from advanced mixologist calm in our show notes. For today's podcast, we talked about bourbon and ham. Is that a pairing that you would expect? Well, to be honest, neither did I I'm a sucker for killing a whole plate of for shoot, I was at a dinner party. But thanks to our guest, Steve Coombs, I found a new love for country ham. When done, right, the saltiness of the ham, it just hits all the right spots. We sit down with Steve, as he talks about his past life as a pizza judge, you heard that right up pizza judge, I mean, talk about a dream job. But then we get into hands, the die to the pigs, curing processes, and even his professional opinion of those hand legs that you see hanging inside of Rick houses. I think it's gonna surprise you. Of course, it wouldn't be complete if we didn't do a bourbon and hand pairing. So try not to salivate too much. All right, don't forget it whiskey from home calm, go register and get your free ticket. If you haven't had a chance yet, go to barrel bourbon.com and you can get cash drink bourbon, whiskey, rye and rum. All delivered direct to your door. Just look for the Buy Now button at the top of the page. All right. Now here we go. Yo, here's Fred minich with above the char. 3:04 I'm Fred MiniK. And this is above the char. I'm a little sad right now. I'm actually really, really sad. We've had to cancel bourbon and beyond. I think many of you all know that. But that's the festival that I co created with Danny Wimmer presents and COVID is forcing a lot of cancellations, especially in the music world. What's gonna happen to the Kentucky Derby? No one really knows. But this Saturday would have been my 13 Kentucky Derby in a row to attend. And I'm just sad because that piece of that that moment is gone. It that it's gone. That piece of culture, that piece of celebration. And it's not necessarily about the horses. It's about the gathering of the people the smoking of cigars, a sipping a bourbon, seeing my wife go through, you know, 15 thousand different hats before she chooses one. So many great moments I've had over the years. I want to share one with you. Now, if you followed me you know that I've, I was a guest of the governor last year and I've been a millionaire's row and I've been around the celebrities and all that. And a lot of people be like, that would be that would be the one that would be like the one memory that you would want to take away when you think about your experiences as the from the derby. I've also been a photographer on the derby. I was on the finishing line in 2008 and got some really beautiful photos of a Belle's before she passed away. And yet, that's not it either. Now, my favorite Derby of all time, was when I was in Peggy know Stephens box with with my wife. We were just pregnant. We're just getting out of that first trimester where we could start telling people you know how it is if you've been pregnant? Well, I've never been pregnant. My wife spent pregnant but I say we as in like, you know, family, and you get out of that first trimester and you're so excited to tell people and we're Catholic. So that first step is always like, Alright, who are going to be the godparents? So it was on Derby Day, like, two, three years ago, that we were in Peggy's box and we asked Peggy, if she would be the godmother to our son, Julian. And she cried, said yes, of course. And it was just a magical moment. It was a wonderful celebration. And then I think I lost a couple hundred bucks on the race. But there's no replace in the derby. We can't replace that. That's just a magical, magical moment. If you've ever been, you know what I'm talking about, but we're doing something that is as good as we possibly can present right now. And that's whiskey from home. It is an amazing lineup of bourbon personalities. And I hope you will join us all day Saturday. As we drink bourbon as we talk bourbon, we're going to be streaming across the interwebs. Unlike any time before, this is the first, this is the first time my knowledge that we've ever seen something like this a virtual conference in the bourbon world. And my hat's off to Kenny Coleman. He's just done such a good job, you know, stepping up and getting this thing going. On the back end. I'm trying to get all the streaming stuff set up. And Ryan's going to be making cocktails and you know what, I'm going to try and make them alongside him. So I cannot wait to see how this goes for everybody. And I hope you will join us. It's this Saturday. I'm sure Kenny's already talked about it, and you're going to hear more about it later on. But it's going to be a great time is it going to replace the derby? Nothing can replace that in our hearts. But what it can do is it can help us get us through the fact that we are missing missing the greatest two minutes in sports. So that's this week's above the char. This one came from the heart. If you have a heartfelt story about the Kentucky Derby, hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, or go to my website Fred medic comm and send me an email. I like reading those kinds of stories. Until next week, cheers 7:23 Welcome back to another episode of bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon, the whole team here today we've got bourbon and we've got ham where we talking pigs and bourbon today so this is this is something that I know Ryan and myself we're big barbecue guys, we got our green eggs, you've got your drum, you've got all kinds of things so terrible, but yes, it's a better omen. Yeah. And you know, for me, I love I love charcuterie boards when I go out to restaurants to can't get enough a ham. And I mean you remember we were talking about going to North Carolina you're talking about the gym. Oh, and ham. Is that what it is? Yep. 7:56 Yeah, the Serrano Hamza Oh, the ham on Hello. Yeah. 8:00 hormone 8:00 that's a source that's your jam on or GMO yeah 8:03 Jay Michael Jackson working there. 8:04 It's the jam the jam and ham. cured meats are like you're talking about love language and I used to raise pigs I used to raise pigs so like this is like ham to me is like it's what I grew up with. We used to raise do rocks and Berkshires and everything's kidding 8:21 yeah I had my Linux I knew you're in the hug business you ever notice had their day their pig in the mud? Did everyone pay the pig you know in the mud? 8:28 Yeah, we made them yeah, we literally like I'd had to clean them all the time because they would get it get really bad and we had some we did have some some hampshire's as well. I had like, like one of these really nice prized hampshire's, and the damn thing died when it touched concrete like it was it was a carrier of what they call a stress gene. And one of my big contributions to the hog community is that I donated him to science instead of eating him 9:00 After he died, you get a tax write off for that or something. I 9:04 don't you know what I think we did, but if they actually they've cured they've bred most of that out there. 9:09 Yeah. And you can't eat them unless you cause its death. Right? If it does that on its own, you gotta 9:15 take there's any rules on 9:19 that to show up live to the budget, 9:22 whatever it sounds delicious. So if 9:24 you hit by a car, I think that seeing well we don't want to know how the sausage made, you know, no pun intended. 9:29 Who knows we might get back into that action today and kind of talking about cured meats as well as we go through here. But you've already heard our guests today. So today is our guests. We've got Steve Coombs. Steve is all over the place. He knows about pigs. He knows about bourbon. He's been a writer for bourbon Plus, he's also an author. He's been a contributing writer for bourbon and banter. So Steve, welcome to the show. 9:49 Thanks for having me. Glad to be here. 9:50 Yeah, so I mean, we kind of talked a little bit there but let's let's kind of talk about some of your your bourbon cred. You know, how did how did you get into actually start writing and kind of Knowing and exploring the spirits world, 10:02 I always call this the confession moment in that I was probably 4748. before somebody got she was the tourism director in Bardstown. And I was down there doing a story for Southern Living magazine, y'all remember Don crystal? Oh, yeah, Don, Don said, we pulled up to heaven Hill. She said, Steve Coombs, you get out of this car right now go inside and do that tasting said you're not going to do an article on my town without tasting some bourbon and believe it or not honest truth, it really clicked that day. It was funny that 92 proof larceny lit my mouth on fire to the point of numbness. And I mean, and now we're drinking barrels, barrel strength, dry, you know, it's no big deal. So I got hooked on it literally just because of the culture. And of course, watching Fred, Fred and I worked many years ago together and seeing what it did for his career and becoming attracted to the characters in the business. My gosh, I mean, I've written about the culinary business for 30 years and never had Have I found such a concentration of friendly characters in one single business? And you especially talking about how rough it was in the wine industry, you know how snobs were in that like you didn't want any more involvement with that the low ego part of this businesses just you know gold for writers don't think yeah, 11:15 I mean the the characters are amazing. I remember that time in your career you You called me I've really how did you get here? How did you do that and all that and I and it for me, this has always been easy because of the of the people and at the time, you were like thinking about, you know, teetering with tequila a little bit. Remember I was and I still love it. But it's a whole country away. 11:38 And here we live in the country of bourbon country, and it's right here and you can drive to barks down to 15 minutes and be interviewing the geniuses in the business or Frankfurt or, you know, Larkspur, 11:49 one of the great things that you've done is that a lot of people come into, into in bourbon and they just, they kind of repeat the same stories. You know, not a lot Have people you know, try to go outside of what's already been done. And you've kind of you've done that. And I've been telling you for a long time that people want to be, you know, learn more about ham and the pairings of it and now you're doing seminars on it and everything. So how did that how did that start? How did you develop this whole new platform that really no one's explored Really? And this ties back to you? Hopefully you remember the answer to this gotta stop this kiss fest over Yeah, 12:27 it is. Yeah, all right 12:30 later, but let me let me say this. he mentored me 15 years ago when we really started he was your supervisor. He said your light just like today? No, I'm kidding. 12:40 I'm totally kidding. 12:41 I was always on time. You were I told him that the company didn't really tolerate that crap and you still ended up military and you just show up on time? 12:47 Yeah, that was that was back when I was still falling a little bit my military code now I'm 10 minutes late to everything cuz I just don't care. Fred. Fred 12:54 called me in July of what was it? 2014. You said that a publisher called Do about doing a book on country ham? That's right. And you said I don't know anything about the subject but I have a feeling I know someone who does. And he called me and he said call the publisher and see if this will work out for you. And I wound up writing that was my is my It was my first book country ham, a southern tradition of hogs salt in smoke, which came out the year after that. And so by then I'd already begun enjoying bourbon and I'm tasting it just like we're gonna taste today. It was late night it was it Believe it or not, sounds so fake, but it's really true is midnight, I was editing the book and sipping it and tasting it with this. Oh my gosh, this works really well together. 13:39 Yeah, it's a match made in heaven. 13:41 Oh, exactly. In and that's really where it kind of clicked. But Jay Denham, who is one of the great cures and Kentucky who's moved back to Cincinnati, had come to me, we're friends. We're talking ham and he said, you know, we should do a big whiskey and hand pairing some time and somehow or another led to the bourbon classic. And we did One with have not had been hell I'm sorry Jim Beam. And it was a hit from then. And ever since I've been doing a lot of these tastings My gosh, we've got six books already this year through March out of town. And it's a lot of fun to spread the gospel of both I mean, pork gets a bad name the United States and this is this is really good stuff that we don't try today. The other other white man and he is really really read me forgot that tagline. Yeah, so horrible. I kinda want to rewind it back to you even a little bit more here. So kind of talk because you were you were a chef previously in your life too, right to kind of talk more about your culinary background. So I my mother was a good Southern cook but never did understand restaurant food until I had to start paying my tuition at St x and my parents said you know, times are a little tight you boys need to get some better jobs if you're gonna keep going to say next pay for it. So I start working and fine dining. And it was the restaurant that really gave Louisville its own restaurant boom was called Casa goes on. It's long since gone. But that was the first place that I tasted really, really good fresh fish, real asparagus, Hollandaise, all these kinds of things. And I realized that was wired for the culinary industry. didn't know what I wanted to do when I graduated college and was stuck watching the chef's and thought that looks interesting. I'll try that. I wanted to be a writer. I've always wanted to be a writer, but I was an absolute terrible manual typewriter typist, mine was the last class at St x in 1982 that use true manual typewriters. And the best I ever did was 32 words a minute. And that wasn't gonna fly at a newspaper. About five or so years later, I got a laptop. It was an IT WAS AN NTC multi sink if anybody remembers it, you guys are toddlers 15:43 weighed 11 and a half 15:44 pounds when that one had like a real floppy like the five and a 15:48 half inch floppy? No, not that 123 and a half no hard drive. And that was the first time that I ever discovered that word processing allows you to correct your mistakes and like well maybe I can do this thing after all. And then so I started writing about the rest Strong industry that was 1991 I still do it not nearly as much because of, you know, publications like yours and, and I'm really digging the spirit scene but to be in it this long and have gotten to travel to really neat places in the world, just writing about food has been a treat and I'm in a food town. So it's been a good career. I let me let me add something to this. He was the editor in chief of pizza today. And then he later was the editor, editor of a website called pizza marketplace. And Steve was a god in pizza around the world. And if you think about pizza, it's like its own sounds delicious. Anyway. 16:44 Steve likes too skinny to be like, doing all this food cookies, but 16:47 he would he would write about these like pizza dough throwing contests and it'd be like Italy versus United States or Canada and that was going on when you're there, man. And it's just it was just it was fun. For me from a career perspective, that was the first time I had ever seen anyone cover a beat very uniquely, and that I've never told you this, but the way that you own pizza gave me a lot of like motivation, you know, to, you know, to discover, you know, in that or in the early times in my career to find what I could like your neck hat, find my niche like you did. And like, he was a god and pizza. If you Google Steve Coombs, you know, we put the quotation marks around it, and then pizza, you'll find a lot of his old stuff and it's beautiful. I kind of want to talk about both. I know 17:41 I kind of talk about pizza just for a second. So kind of talk about like, how do you judge a pizza like in your mind when you were going into judge a pizza like what how does that how does that work? 17:50 there? It's It's the last contest that I did for a long time was in Columbus, that client I was telling you about that I had been up there was the North Custom was a minute American pizza contest can't recall but we judge it on crest quality Christmas. You would look at what you know the rim of the crest which at the time is called the corny God or the cornice. And you'd look for the texture of the dough. You judge it on the the flavor of the sauce how it presents itself well with cheese you don't want to slide off. That's a problem. He looked at the ratio of toppings with sauce and crust. And when you look at the marketability of it is this thing really something that would sell in a in a pizza restaurant or do the guy just make it up on his way in and then do you do thumbs up sideways? Thumbs thumbs down? There wasn't there was there were 38 judges in this contest to manage you know, the volume of pizzas that were coming through. So you really did have to have a rigorous pizza quickies now it's a bookies. Yeah, we could Yeah, yeah. So it was it was pretty rigorous judging, and I'd seen a similar system in Italian I'm sorry in Italy, but uh, it's basically based on what you know, making the Italians win. What's their system What style do you prefer? Like? 19:03 Okay, I really do. 19:04 Yeah, me Neapolitan, New York. Go neck and neck. Yeah. And I like that salt mine like a Pete not pizza. Taco foldable floppy. 19:11 Yeah, there seems to be a trend right now of people bashing Chicago style pizza saying it's not really pizza. It's just like a big like a lasagna. Yeah, it's 19:20 Are you in that? Are you No, not at all. That that's it's a derivative of an Italian version of pizza called torta pasqual Lena which means Easter tart or torte. And it was basically you know, the deep dish and they would put another layer of crust over the top and it was it was like kind of like we will roll out a big lasagna for celebratory event. And and that's the way it was treated. It wasn't the Italians don't see pizza as a slice after slice thing. Like we eat it here. I mean, we're committed. These dudes have had an appetizer, some wine, the little bit of pizza, then, you know something afterward. We look at Pizza as a whole meal sometimes our meal. Yeah, no. So 20:01 kind of goes back to that old saying like, any pizza can be a personal pain if you want to try harder. Yeah. 20:06 Yeah, yeah. So 20:09 they would look at that at a pizza that size and say, Man, that's for 10 people. 12 people, you know, and we look at it sometimes they will you get two friends. Yeah. 20:22 All right pizza pursuit come to you in 2021 Yep. All right. So let's let's kind of head and kind of dive in here with with what we have in front of us. So kind of Tell me Tell us a little bit about like what you brought today and variations and why you chose this. 20:34 So we have a couple of hams before us today. And I like to focus on people who use the very breeds that Fred was talking about having raised years ago. Heritage breed hogs because the quality of the meat is higher. The fat is much more present. It's better marbled, there's a better cap like this area here is called and you get a much better balance of flavor and texture. encoding a lot of the things that we talked about with bourbon but only presented in a solid form. I also when I did the book several years ago, I really got to taste a lot of country ham and these specific cures are the one that I ones that I really like to use in presentations. I have found that their meat tastes best with whiskey out of you know many others, partly because of the fat partly because of the complexity that's gained in aging just like bourbon. 21:26 Yeah, I was about to ask like how what what the rigorous process of testing all that was like to be able to figure out exactly what would pair well 21:33 and what no more rigorous and you guys sitting at the bar, just tasting lots of different things and lugging it somewhere in your memory or Notepad. It's just tasting and tasting, tasting and tasting and think it through. It takes it again like bourbon, a little goes a long way you don't need a ton of country hand three ounces, a country hand would give you your full RTA dose of salt, so you don't need much of it. But I've really gotten to where I'm very fond of this first hand nearest us is from the hammer it in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. This is a guy who his name is Bob woods and he's the one that coined my favorite phrase that he used in presentations and he said, Steve, country ham Ain't nothing but hillbilly prosciutto that's what it is. A traditional ham is cured basalt only a country ham is cured with salt and sugar and various other peppers if you like but that's basically the difference 22:26 now these particular pigs you talked about that are worth or they spent a specific diet or they just like you know, in Italy I've seen you know, the swine are fed like a corns only and like massage Do you know? sure that's the procedure department hawks, but they do like to let him get out and free range and did you guys or did you have to keep them in pens or it varied? 22:49 You know, there were some breeds that we would like kind of roam Chester hogs were ones that we would let roam around. You could kind of trust them and they were diggers. They route the hell out They were real readers. 23:02 Very what's rude or mean? Guys? You gotta understand. 23:05 They stay with their nose. I'm gonna say slay 23:07 their noses into the ground to get at grubs and such. Right, 23:09 right. Yeah. So they and they also like to get a nice cool spot to get underneath there. the Berkshires were runners. And so like, if you let them out, there's a pretty good chance that coyote would get it, you know, because they would go out in the woods or something. And they do rocks for really, they were just kind of lazy. They didn't really want to do anything. So even if you open the pin up, they'd be like, yeah, there's a lot out there and I got this water bucket. We're good. 23:35 I love the accent do rocks. Because here in Kentucky me Derek now. Yeah, same spelling, 23:41 just like him. Oh, and and Jim. Oh, well. 23:44 What's fascinating about that is that we would buy hogs from all over the all over the country. You know, because we were competitive. We were showman we were competitive, you know, trying to win jackpot hog shows and stuff. And you go to you we'd go to Illinois, which Illinois had like For a long time, they had like the best genetics for hampshire's and everybody was trying to get a little bit of Hampshire in their in their breeding processes. And they would you would go there you couldn't even understand and they'd say hag, you know, the different enunciations of the breeds? It's fascinating you can it's one of the few kind of light words where you can tell where someone's from, based on how they pronounce breeds. Yeah. And if you look at all they're all most of the of the breeds come from like some kind of European You 24:33 know, when did when you said free range so like, I'm trying to think like a, you know, a cow, like if you have grass fed beef or versus like corn fed corn fed, like much more fatter, like, more flavorful for me anyways, whereas you get grass fed, it's kind of more grainy, kind of earthy kind of flavors, is that do they do the similar things with pigs or? 24:52 Absolutely, I mean, you can you can tell the difference and it just tastes this against some neutral pork sometimes if you cured it, and you do. If we didn't have that diet to begin with, it's not going to influence the meat 25:05 in a thing to that they do with with all animals in, it's very prevalent amongst swine is that they actively add antibiotics because these things are always getting sick. You know, if one of them gets, you know, some kind of flu or some kind of cold, it could wipe out an entire herd or a farrowing house, which has all the piglets in it and you you lose your entire investment so that a lot of these farmers will actively add antibiotics into the feed. And so like when when you hear someone talking about free gain free range or natural or a lot of that means is that they're getting a feed that is not as you know, doped up if you will, and also like they're able to see 25:52 the mo corn thing for you know, hang their hat on that you know, but does it make a difference in the you know, antibiotics versus not any biotics with the meat flavor. 26:01 I've never heard anybody yeah say whether it just always I think it's a no better than I sure 26:07 I think a lot of that also too when you look at this a lot of like ham and sausages is about the processing. So very few people are actually are actually just getting the you know, getting the getting the meat from the hog, you know slicing it and cooking two of them, you know the same way everyone's doing a sauce or they're doing a special cure. It's very it's not like before you can cut you get two steaks, slap it on there, cook it up, and you can tell you know, it's very it's very different with this because much of the art is in the curing and I'm fascinated to me. I'm very fascinated with the art of curing because we go into warehouses and Kentucky, you know, bourbon warehouses like will it and you can see these little, you know, hams just kind of in the rafters. We won't talk about that. 27:00 Alright, we'll see you later. So 27:01 yeah, I want to talk about Yeah, no, I have my opinion on that. 27:05 Well, let's go ahead we'll come back Let's taste I don't know let's let's definitely taste I kind of want you to kind of talk us through, you know what, what we have and like what we're pairing it with. We already talked about what we what we have and then we went on, despite what your brothers 27:16 told you. So what are we left or so let's go with the front one, the one closest to you. This is from the hammer. This is an 18 to 20 month old hand it's called a tin Shuto. So I'm like Fred. I like to hold it up. I like to see the marbling in it. Oh wow, I've never done a efficient Oh wow. 27:33 Can you imagine being do i mean i don't know if I've ever gone to a restaurant and then like I never seen anyone, 27:38 anybody. I don't do that in a restaurant. They bring a light to this and make me a flashlight. 27:42 That smell I mean, I guess like I'm not using 27:44 this particular ham has huge Parmesan cheese note to me, but it also has that very Porky note that barnyard note that I love Parmesan cheese is definitely there on Yeah, for sure. And it's like to lay it right on my tongue. 27:56 I've also I don't think I've ever gone through and like tried to I mean, dude, I'm assuming since you do this and you judge you try to do the palate tasting and trainings like it's the same way you do with a bourbon you're sitting there you're looking at the color you're looking and you're actually smelling it you're nosing it the same way you would do with a whiskey or something like that. 28:12 Believe it or not the way they judge ham contests you don't see the internal part of the ham it's never cut to look at it is in Italy they typically use a horse's cannon bone and they kind of sharpen it down to a point in they stick it into the near the H bone of the ham to see if the thing is properly cured because you know instantly about that aroma that comes out a stick it in the stick through their nose and say yea or nay. And that's one of the criteria for judging here in Kentucky is is that thing properly cured and so you put it in a couple of parts of it the Beavis and Butthead joke in the butt face of the ham. And so they're checking on aroma. They're checking on appearance, how it's trimmed. Typically a country ham is smoked so that The way that is colored is important they don't want they don't want to just super mahogany like Western Kentucky cares will do that sometimes it's not 29:09 a favorable the typical to use mahogany wood for no or they use all different okay oak is really common 29:15 I'm sorry hickory Hickory, Hickory. Okay. So yeah but it's much more superficial than you would think they'll probably palpate it you know smash around some but it's not nearly as intense as you might think. But taste that with the toasted which is on the left you know it's gonna love This is Lauren when she added this guy's like smacking our lips we're gonna do and 29:36 she's always never do that. 29:39 I sound effects 29:40 is if this didn't have enough brown sugar on its own. It's really bumps it up. Andrea Wilson at makers not talk about when we do these pairings we want to compliment, contrast or elevate when we make a pairing. Compliment means they go well together. Contrast means they make each other interesting. Elevate means each makes the other better. And I think this is a 30:05 pairing appearing that elevates so why go with the the toasted on this one? What was the? What was the significance behind that one just 30:13 it's a simple approachable whiskey. I mean, it's it Who doesn't like toasted? It's not my favorite of the mixtures line but I really really like it. And it just pairs well with food. I've paired with a lot of foods and you think you guys can jump in on this with me, but for some reason, their line the mixtures line pairs better than any and I'm thinking that there are two things that are noticeably different from everything else we've done. And that's low barrier entry proof and low proof in the bottle. And for some reason that seems to result in a really good pairing food. I don't know if you've ever thought that through But 30:51 no, I mean, I guess with alcohol overpower. Yeah, I would say that's probably 30:56 but I think everyone's different to you know, some people have you know, burned their power. What's out they need that barrel proof all the time. I wanted to ask you a question about about like the the the the sliced country ham always feels sticker to me then prosciutto and I when I was in I was in Italy and I was at a price Judo place and they had me go up go behind and cut they they let me cut and I used actually did the bone and when I cut they were like you're too thick Get out of here. So it wasn't that thick it was like this but so why why what's the difference between like you know the standards of the thickness? 31:40 What do you get if you mix Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how that's to bar spirits to our spirits traces its roots to a ranch in rural Texas run by the founder, Nathan Kaiser his family for six generations. Nathan grew up on the ranch was stories of relatives bootlegging moonshine, and after moving into Seattle, he wanted to keep the family Traditional life any opened to bar spirits in 2012. They're very traditional distillery making everything from scratch and each day starts by milling 1000 pounds of grain. Their entire product lineup consists of only two whiskies, their moonshine, and the only bourbon made in Seattle. Both bottles are being featured in rack house whiskey clubs. Next box. rack house whiskey club is a whiskey the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer racquel ships out to have the feature distilleries finest bottles, along with some cool merchandise in a box delivered to your door every two months. Go to rack house whiskey club.com to check it out and try some two bar for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 32:49 What's the difference between like, you know the standards of the thickness In contrast, I think it's a great question 32:57 in the United States and certainly in the south. In United States where country ham is most prevalent people don't eat it and people I say eat it raw No not yet rots cured it is chemically and physically transformed into a shelf stable product so it's cured it's not raw it My mother was one of many who just abused ham country ham and would cook it to you probably had it Ryan in Barcelona baseball leather consistency and intensify the salt it was just overwhelming absolutely no fun but when I did this book I can't tell you how many people how many cures did not like it like this. They they thought that this is kind of like it with a little red add gravy or whatever and like this is the best expression Yeah, this is the barrel proof barrel strength expression of their product 33:50 or essentially throw it in a sandwich with tomato and you know let us in pickles. 33:54 Well done like well yeah done like that. I've enjoyed it too. It Nancy nuisance place I think I posted a photo A couple days ago of it but yeah Fred This is the shark eatery cut that really shows to me respects the the product and its natural best and did you cut it with I not like you're talking about like off the the hammer itself I'd still be doing it to try to get these things done you got to be an expert or an expert to do that I can do it but I'm slow I have a commercial slicer in my house. Oh 34:24 nice and then I know what I'm getting at Costco next commercials 34:29 I'll help you find one on the on the US market will be a lot better go where one out with a ham 34:33 I got a question after you cut yes or no because it's cured do you have to do anything to like seal it to preserve it or how do you preserve it after you've already cut into it? 34:42 Well, before we started you probably saw me taking it out of those vacuum packages that just do that but 34:47 oh you and I'm talking about the actual whole ham. What do you do with that after? 34:52 I like to break it down into as large sections of muscle as I can both to make it easier to slice But to do is you say get it into a vacuum package and and seal it that way so that the more muscle integrity you have the better it's going to be preserved I can keep them in a refrigerator or a freezer for a long long period of time and they're fine 35:13 What size do these typically come in when say you want to go buy like a hammer 35:17 so a country ham depending on the maker or the cure, I should say starts out at about 20 to 23 pounds green weight is Joe recall that to green that seems to be industry and industry time. And what's that? What's that mean though? It means fresh. Yeah, fresh 35:35 jiggling way so it's basically like trying to buy like an eight ounce filet or an eight ounce steak and then you cook it and then it 35:40 but that's been that's probably been dry aged for a little while so that this this thing was only King you know, 48 hours ago. 35:46 All right then. So remember my role and stray from butter dogs. It was just it was raising them. Put them on a truck and say goodbye. Give me the check. Yeah, once they were done, I was don't name them. I did name a couple of 35:59 yeah But But yeah, they'll they'll shrink to about if they start out at 22. There'll be ready it, you know, at about a year at 17 pounds so they lose. That's their Angel share, you know them losing that moisture to intensify the flavors that are inside the ham and to trigger I'm trying to think of the garden it's an enzymatic reaction that that really makes the meat shelf stable. All that works together and it works together because the place we live just like bourbon is so good here because of our climate. The same thing happens to hams that you know that once you hang them outside and let them be subject to the weather. It's amazing. Now there's not that many places in the world that you can do this. 36:44 Well I've never I've always wanted to get into like curing my own ham or something like that. Because I know a few people and a few different bourbon groups and that's like one of their kind of like side projects or side hobbies assisting 36:55 at 89 guy yeah, he's got some good ones going 36:58 yeah. So with the One 37:00 of those in my refrigerator home All right, 37:02 perfect. So I mean, so talk, I mean, because I don't even know like, even the process of how you would even start doing that, hey, you'd have to require the leg, but be like, what, what's that? What's the next step in that process? 37:13 It's it's pretty crude, frankly, it's, you trim the trim away certain parts of the hand to make it look good. And you rub the hell out of it with carrying salt. You know, I mean, you're sticking in every little nook and cranny because you want to get that salt in there to penetrate to the bone and push the way with and push the water out essentially. As cures would say it's a race to the bone if if, if bacteria gets to the bone of the hand first, you've lost your ham if if salt gets there first you've got a cured ham. And what it does, basically is created by getting the water out it starves the bacteria, that's what they need to thrive. And that's all the salt does is pushes it out. And of course flavors it very deal 37:58 to I just did the second premise. I'm sorry I jumped ahead 38:01 I couldn't I did it too oh my god it's perfect oh my god i mean it was it was funny like going into this you know I have a I have a little bit of I don't want to say a criticism but I have a little bit of that that kind of I hold back a little bit be like oh can you really pair like ham and bourbon together holy shit yeah you can 38:20 say that's so fun about this is to see that happen and people you know the scales fall from their eyes they go really 38:27 you can do this well I mean it's in I think it kind of just gives you a little bit more you know a benefit to hear to say like okay, you were able to show me like for me to sit there and say like, I don't even know where I would go and find a different kinds of handy and start experimenting with around here. But if I did, and I came down here my basement I started pulling, you know, Jefferson's reserve, I started pulling Booker's I pulled you know, whatever, you name it across the line and tried to figure out like, how did these pair I don't really know if I'd be able to do that. So I guess when you're doing this, what are some of those new wants his or flavors in a ham or a bourbon that you're trying to pair with a particular Wang Kenny. I wish I could French it up and give you some fascinating answer. But it is mostly trial and error. But But the key 39:14 attribute that I want from the ham to actually from a country ham is fat content to coat the palette and smoke a little bit of smoke in there. Salt is everywhere it doesn't matter the to AI know how to cut the the hand correctly so choose correctly. So really it's it's fat. And one of the virtues of a whiskey that pairs well is that it cleanses the palate. Yeah, and and this this so what we tasted here just a second ago that Fred and Kenny cheated on wisely. was a 24 month old Broadbent country ham. Yeah, broadband done from a Berkshire hog. Yeah, Burke charade. Yeah. And it's just as there's no app That's it. This is one the the the company's won the Kentucky State Fair country ham championship 18 times out of 53 or so. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

In this week's episode of The Cycling Podcast, Richard Moore, Lionel Birnie and Daniel Friebe reveal a few more details of the upcoming coverage of Our Giro d'Italia. Our virtual journey round Italy kicks off in Budapest on Saturday, May 9 and over the course of three weeks we will delve into the history and culture of the Giro d'Italia, capturing the sounds and flavour of the first grand tour of the season. There'll also be an opportunity to ride part of our virtual Giro every day, but stay tuned for the fine details on that. In this week's episode we hear from Dave Brailsford, the boss of Team Ineos, as he marks the first anniversary of his working relationship with the chemical company owned by Jim Ratcliffe. Brailsford also talks about the impact of the coronavirus on professional cycling. There's François Thomazeau's latest song and Larry Warbasse talks about e-racing, having taken part in the Digital Swiss stage race. DONATE TO RYSZARD SZURKOWSKI We heard from Herbie Sykes about Ryszard Szurkowski, who won the first edition of the Peace Race 50 years ago and, aged 72, was paralysed in a crash during a race in Cologne a couple of year ago. The Lions Club of Poznan has set up a crowdfunding page to raise money to buy a customised vehicle for Ryszard. If you'd like to donate, you can do so here: https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/herbiesykes COMING SOON... OUR GIRO The Giro d'Italia may not be taking place in May this season but The Cycling Podcast will be releasing daily episodes telling the story of Our Giro. Race director Daniel Friebe has designed the route and we'll delve into our memory banks to celebrate the great race. There'll be the usual flavour of Italy along the way too... Here's our teaser (https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1240658410707849217?s=20) . OUR SUPPORTERS iwoca is title sponsor to The Cycling Podcast.  Over the past seven years iwoca has grown from a small start-up to one of the fastest-growing business lenders in Europe. Now they’re a team of more than 300 in London and Frankfurt working towards the goal of funding one million small businesses, including cafes, spin studios and bike shops. They can lend between £1,000 and £250,000 and make it quick and easy to get a decision. If you are interested in finding out more about what iwoca can do for small businesses go to: iwoca: Fast, fair and flexible business funding (http://iwoca.co.uk/) The Cycling Podcast is supported by Science in Sport. For a 25% discount on all your Science in Sport sports nutrition products use the code SISCP25 on www.scienceinsport.com (http://www.scienceinsport.com/) This episode is also supported by Laka, a community of cyclists all joining forces to provide each cover for bikes and equipment in order to keep premiums low and ensure pay-outs in the event of a claim are swift. Check out laka.co.uk (https://www.laka.co.uk/) KEEP UP TO DATE Sign up for The Cycling Podcast's weekly email newsletter to keep up with what's going on behind the scenes. This week, Lionel writes about the return of Explore. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com (https://thecyclingpodcast.com/) BECOME A FRIEND OF THE PODCAST Signing up as a Friend of the Podcast has never been easier. Our new system will get you connected in just a few clicks. Why sign up? Apart from getting access to our special episodes throughout the year – there are five online already – you will be helping us to keep The Cycling Podcast's team car on the road to provide daily Grand Tour coverage. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com/subscribe (https://thecyclingpodcast.supportingcast.fm/) . We've frozen the price again – it's just £15, which will work out at less than £1 per special episode. If you want to pay more we'll send you a copy of our new book, The Grand Tour Diaries. THE GRAND TOUR DIARIES Available now at thecyclingpodcast.com/book (https://shop.visionsp.co.uk/other/TheGrandTourDiaries) . All Friends of the Podcast can get a 20% discount.

The bells in the church tower chime, so it's time to grab our Telecasters and talk about Jeff Buckley. Specifically, it's time for a deep dive into Buckley's "Last Goodbye," one of the centerpiece songs on his sole studio album, Grace. There'll be spacious drums, grand basslines, spiraling string parts, alternative guitar tunings, and of course, loads of beautiful singing. Artist: Jeff Buckley Album: Grace (1994) Written by: Jeff Buckley Listen/Buy: Apple Music | Amazon | Spotify ------ ALSO FEATURED: “Mojo Pin,” "Grace," "Hallelujah" and "Corpus Christi Carol" all from Grace, 1994 “Unforgiven (Last Goodbye)” from Live at Sin-é, 1993 OUTRO SOLOIST: Dan Nervo Dan plays guitar all around the San Francisco Bay Area in bands like Neon Velvet, and also teaches private guitar lessons - in fact, he taught Kirk some of the guitar parts for "Last Goodbye" back in the day. Hit him up if you want to get really good at guitar: https://www.facebook.com/DanNervoGuitarLessons/ 'GRAM BY 'GRAM If you're interested in occasional music and Portland-related photos and videos, as well as teases for upcoming Strong Songs episodes, follow Kirk on Instagram @kirk_hamilton. https://www.instagram.com/kirk_hamilton/ NEWSLETTER/MAILING LIST Sign up for Kirk's mailing list to start getting monthly-ish newsletters with music recommendations, links, news, and extra thoughts on new Strong Songs episodes: https://tinyletter.com/KirkHamilton STRONG PLAYLISTS Kirk has condensed his Strong Songs picks into a single new list, which you can find on both Spotify and Apple Music. You can also find a recent playlist Kirk specifically designed for listening while staying home and not spreading viruses on Spotify, Apple Music, and Google Play (thanks Thomas for making that last one) SUPPORT STRONG SONGS ON PATREON! Thank you to all of Strong Songs's Patreon patrons! You are all incredible. If you want to support Kirk making the show (and also see a new behind-the-scenes video about how he makes it), go here: https://Patreon.com/StrongSongs APRIL 2020 WHOLE-NOTE PATRONS AccessViolation andrew walters CALEB ROTACH Chad Barnard Clint Johnson Craig J Covell Dan Apczynski Dave Florey Glenn Jared Norris Mark Schechter Merlin Mann R Watson Ryan Torvik Viki Dun APRIL 2020 HALF-NOTE PATRONS AJ Schuster Albukitty Alex Singer Alexander Polson Amanda Furlotti Andre Bremer Andrew Baker Andrew Lee Arjun Sharma Bill Thornton brant Phillip Brett Douville Brian Amoebas Brooke Wilford Chas Lednicky Chris Brown Christer Lindqvist Cyrus N. White Darryl Stewart Dave King David Stroud DuncannLL Earl Lozada Eero Wahlstedt Elliot Jay O'Neill Emily Williams FlSHBONES Forrest Chang Gavin Doig Gerry Nelson Jacob Dye Jaehoon Jeong James Johnson Jeffrey Olson Jenifer Carr Jennifer Bush Jeremy Dawson John and Sharon Stenglein Jon O’Keefe joujou Juan Carlos Montemayor Elosua Judith Stansfield Jules Bailey Justin Liew Justin McElroy Kate Albury Kevin Morrell Kevin Pennyfeather Leigh Sales Mark Steen Markus Koester Matt Betzel Matt Gaskell Max Schechter Melanie Stivers Michael Blackwell michael bochner Miriam Juskowicz Mueller Nate from Kalamazoo Nicholas Schechter Richard Toller Robbie Ferrero Robert Paul Sam Fenn samuel gardner Shane DeLeon SP Tanner Morton Tom Clewer Tom Lauer Toni Isaacson Wayne Marsh

In another bumper edition of The Cycling Podcast, Richard Moore, Lionel Birnie and Daniel Friebe enjoy a ramble through the Ardennes, recalling memorable editions of Liège-Bastogne-Liège and also discuss ASO's plans to hold the Tour de France at the end of August. 00:00 Introduction 07:50 François Thomazeau sings... This week, in honour of Bernard Hinault's win in the 1980 Liège-Bastogne-Liège, when the weather was so bad the race was nicknamed Neige-Bastogne-Neige, François sings Snow by Randy Newman. 13:00 Part one – A ramble through the Ardennes We set out from Liège, turn at Bastogne and head back to the industrial heart of Wallonia in a potted trip down memory lane. Daniel compares Flèche Wallonne to Lana del Rey and calls it the uphill cheese roll. 34:00 Mike Woods Hear from Canadian Mike Woods, who broke his leg in a crash at Paris-Nice and ended up in a French hospital just as the coronavirus crisis was taking hold. He has enjoyed a couple of excellent editions of Liège-Bastogne-Liège, including second place two years ago. 51:00 Lockdown Larry Another despatch from AG2R-La Mondiale pro Larry Warbasse. 1:00:05 The coronavirus part What's behind the Tour de France's decision to announce new dates for the race – and is it a realistic prospect? Plus we hear from Geraint Thomas, who recently rode three 12-hour shifts on Zwift to raise money for the NHS. WILLIE SMIT EPISODE The episode featuring Willie Smit that Richard mentioned is here (https://audioboom.com/posts/7368808-stage-19-avila-toledo-vuelta-a-espana-2019) . JOIN OUR NON-DROP CAPPUCCINO RIDE ON ZWIFT THIS SUNDAY On Sunday we hosted a meet-up for 50 riders on Zwift. In time for this Sunday, Zwift has raised the meet-up limit to 100, so if you'd like to join Lionel and the rest the ride will be one-hour, starting at 10am (BST). How to join us: 1. Follow Lionel Birnie on Zwift 2. Email contact@thecyclingpodcast.com with the words Cappuccino Ride in the subject title 3. Include your Zwift name in the email body. See you on Sunday. WATCH ON YOUTUBE 1980 Liège-Bastogne-Liège (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR_N3odC0-o) – Hinault in the snow (short) 1987 Liège-Bastogne-Liège (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOaGK4bIIDg) – Roche and Criquielion caught by Argentin COMING SOON... OUR GIRO The Giro d'Italia may not be taking place in May this season but The Cycling Podcast will be releasing daily episodes telling the story of Our Giro. Race director Daniel Friebe has designed the route and we'll delve into our memory banks to celebrate the great race. There'll be the usual flavour of Italy along the way too... Here's our teaser (https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1240658410707849217?s=20) . OUR SUPPORTERS iwoca is title sponsor to The Cycling Podcast.  Over the past seven years iwoca has grown from a small start-up to one of the fastest-growing business lenders in Europe. Now they’re a team of more than 300 in London and Frankfurt working towards the goal of funding one million small businesses, including cafes, spin studios and bike shops. They can lend between £1,000 and £250,000 and make it quick and easy to get a decision. If you are interested in finding out more about what iwoca can do for small businesses go to: iwoca: Fast, fair and flexible business funding (http://iwoca.co.uk/) The Cycling Podcast is supported by Science in Sport. For a 25% discount on all your Science in Sport sports nutrition products use the code SISCP25 on www.scienceinsport.com (http://www.scienceinsport.com/) This episode is also supported by Laka, a community of cyclists all joining forces to provide each cover for bikes and equipment in order to keep premiums low and ensure pay-outs in the event of a claim are swift. Check out laka.co.uk (https://www.laka.co.uk/) KEEP UP TO DATE Sign up for The Cycling Podcast's weekly email newsletter to keep up with what's going on behind the scenes. This week, Lionel writes about the return of Explore. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com (https://thecyclingpodcast.com/) BECOME A FRIEND OF THE PODCAST Signing up as a Friend of the Podcast has never been easier. Our new system will get you connected in just a few clicks. Why sign up? Apart from getting access to our special episodes throughout the year – there are five online already – you will be helping us to keep The Cycling Podcast's team car on the road to provide daily Grand Tour coverage. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com/subscribe (https://thecyclingpodcast.supportingcast.fm/) . We've frozen the price again – it's just £15, which will work out at less than £1 per special episode. If you want to pay more we'll send you a copy of our new book, The Grand Tour Diaries. THE GRAND TOUR DIARIES Available now at thecyclingpodcast.com/book (https://shop.visionsp.co.uk/other/TheGrandTourDiaries) . All Friends of the Podcast can get a 20% discount.

A LEAP TO AN ECOLOGICAL ECONOMY by Derek Paul Is the present economy working for you and those around you? Is your government in debt? In your country, is there a real drive to deal with climate change? Are you aware of the great urgency of doing this? Are you aware that many economists consider that one cannot address climate change and other urgent problems within the economic system we now have? If it seems to you that the world has come to an impasse, there is a solution in the form of a new kind of economic thinking, with many practical changes to match. Its called an ecological economy (EE). It calls us to put the health of all life on this planet as the central issue. The EE will focus on resources rather than only money. Money will no longer rule us; rather it will help us do what needs doing. And well measure capital in natural units, not money. There'll be employment for those who want it; and the extra jobs will be found in projects that will be directed at the health of the ecosphere; and that includes your health. The fields and forests that have been denuded of nutrients will, over time, be restored; carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels will be eliminated. The costs of such projects will be assessed in terms of resource requirements and the needed human effort, with money as the servant, not the boss. The nations will learn to cooperate better,it will be in all of their interests. The worlds burgeoning population will halt its expansion, just in time to give wild life the breathing space it needs. Derek Paul is a retired physicist who has also published in several other fields. He obtained his Bachelor’s degree from Cambridge University and then worked for three years in industry. In 1953 he took up residence in Kingston, Ontario teaching and doing research in atomic physics for a decade at the Royal Military College of Canada. He obtained a doctorate from Queens University in 1958. From 1964-95 he was a professor at the University of Toronto. In 1976 he became a participant in the Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs, with their focus on peace issues. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in December 1979 and the maximum tension in the Cold War greatly changed his off-duty activities, which came to include co-founding Science for Peace (1981- ), and several visits to the Soviet Union and one to East Germany, all on peace matters. In 2005, he cofounded the Global Issues Project which grew to a committee of eleven and organized international roundtables over seven years on crucial issues spanning forests, climate change, fresh water, food, population, a no-growth economy, biochar, and peace in outer space. He was motivated to write this book because of the urgent need for a new economic system that would enable the world to address the huge threat of climate change. He is a member of two physical societies and of the International Society for Ecological Economics, and is a board member of Coalition Climat Montreal. He lives in Montreal. www.derekleverpaul.ca https://www.amazon.com/Leap-Ecological-Economy-Derek-Paul-ebook/dp/B079KGQ964/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=A+Leap+to+an+Ecological+Economy&qid=1580764663&s=books&sr=1-1 http://www.bluefunkbroadcasting.com/root/twia/dpaul.mp3

This week's episode is a Netherlands-themed ramble to go alongside our latest special for Friends of the Podcast, which is called Van der Poel. Introduction 00:00 Francois's song 8:16 This week François Thomazeau sings In the Dutch Mountains by the Nits – an homage to the Amstel Gold Race. Part one – An Amstel Gold Race ramble 11:48 In an extended ramble, Richard Moore, Lionel Birnie and Daniel Friebe talk about the Amstel Gold Race, focusing on last year's victory by Mathieu van der Poel. We hear a snippet of Richard's special episode, which feature's Mathieu's dad, Adri. And we discuss Van der Poel Snr's career and the similarities between the two. We also weigh up the Amstel Gold Race, the youngest of the main spring Classics. Plus, hear from Dutch journalist Raymond Kerckhoffs about Van der Poel, the rivalry between Jan Raas and Peter Post and Tom Dumoulin and Jumbo-Visma. Lockdown Larry – 1:05:00 The latest bulletin from AG2R-La Mondiale rider Larry Warbasse corrects Daniel's geography. Part two – The coronavirus part 1:09:00 The latest news from the world of pro cycling plus hear from Mitchelton-Scott pro Jack Haig about the difficulty of maintaining focus and motivation for training during these extraordinary times. The Cycling Podcast is supported by iwoca and Science in Sport. WATCH ON YOUTUBE The 2019 Amstel Gold Race, won by Mathieu van der Poel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6rA9zou0PU) The 1990 Amstel Gold Race, won by Mathieu's dad Adri. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNe9pziY0hw) The 1987 Amstel Gold Race, Malcolm Elliott v the Dutch. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwU7GXvbjlM) COMING SOON... OUR GIRO The Giro d'Italia may not be taking place in May this season but The Cycling Podcast will be releasing daily episodes telling the story of Our Giro. Race director Daniel Friebe has designed the route and we'll delve into our memory banks to celebrate the great race. There'll be the usual flavour of Italy along the way too... Here's our teaser (https://twitter.com/cycling_podcast/status/1240658410707849217?s=20) . OUR SUPPORTERS iwoca is title sponsor to The Cycling Podcast.  Over the past seven years iwoca has grown from a small start-up to one of the fastest-growing business lenders in Europe. Now they’re a team of more than 300 in London and Frankfurt working towards the goal of funding one million small businesses, including cafes, spin studios and bike shops. They can lend between £1,000 and £250,000 and make it quick and easy to get a decision. If you are interested in finding out more about what iwoca can do for small businesses go to: iwoca: Fast, fair and flexible business funding (http://iwoca.co.uk/) The Cycling Podcast is supported by Science in Sport. For a 25% discount on all your Science in Sport sports nutrition products use the code SISCP25 on www.scienceinsport.com (http://www.scienceinsport.com/) This episode is also supported by Laka, a community of cyclists all joining forces to provide each cover for bikes and equipment in order to keep premiums low and ensure pay-outs in the event of a claim are swift. Check out laka.co.uk (https://www.laka.co.uk/) KEEP UP TO DATE Sign up for The Cycling Podcast's weekly email newsletter to keep up with what's going on behind the scenes. This week, Lionel writes about the return of Explore. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com (https://thecyclingpodcast.com/) BECOME A FRIEND OF THE PODCAST Signing up as a Friend of the Podcast has never been easier. Our new system will get you connected in just a few clicks. Why sign up? Apart from getting access to our special episodes throughout the year – there are five online already – you will be helping us to keep The Cycling Podcast's team car on the road to provide daily Grand Tour coverage. Sign up at thecyclingpodcast.com/subscribe (https://thecyclingpodcast.supportingcast.fm/) . We've frozen the price again – it's just £15, which will work out at less than £1 per special episode. If you want to pay more we'll send you a copy of our new book, The Grand Tour Diaries. THE GRAND TOUR DIARIES Available now at thecyclingpodcast.com/book (https://shop.visionsp.co.uk/other/TheGrandTourDiaries) . All Friends of the Podcast can get a 20% discount.

Are you a property manager who spends too much time struggling with leasing requirements? It may be time to automate rental property management and focus more on how to grow your business. Today’s guest is Faizan Khan from LetHub, an AI leasing assistant service for property management businesses. LetHub utilizes AI to interact with renters, resolve their problems, and get them to the doors.  You’ll Learn... [03:40] Why LetHub? Opportunity to use AI to automate rental property management. [04:21] Myth: AI is a simple chatbot with multiple threads of what needs to be done. [05:00] Reality: AI goes beyond basics by understanding how the human brain works.  [05:26] Good vs. Genius AI: What’s the difference? Ability to learn and fix mistakes. [06:39] How to build an AI: Data scientist, algorithms, machine learning (ML), and supervised learning approach are needed to get started.  [07:29] LetHub’s Goal: Make experience for renters and landlords very easy.  [07:55] Property Management Problem: Difficult to get a rental apartment. Demand is high. Everyone is looking. AI can help. [09:05] Why LetHub uses AI? AI is not going to replace humans, but it’s a substitute. [09:19] Retention Rate: Property managers want to get the best tenants and keep them.  [10:25] LetHub’s AI: Replies to questions, books tours, provides CRM, handles emails. [12:15] LetHub’s Automated System: Requires less staff and time to generate results. [15:35] Pre-call Process: Top four questions focus on pets, moving date, student or employed, and tell me about yourself.  [17:25] API and Integrations: Connect to Buildium, Yardi, or other account. [20:00] LetHub Listings: All channels have Web link; connect email with Web platform.  Tweetables LetHub’s goal is to make the experience for renters and landlords very easy. Get people to the door. A good AI understands; a genius AI learns from its mistakes. AI won’t replace humans, but be a substitute for property managers to focus on growth. People like to chat. They don't want to call. They want instant replies.  Resources Faizan Khan’s Email LetHub Buildium Yardi Rent Manager RealPage DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today's guest, I'm hanging out with Faizan Khan. Faizan, how are you today? Faizan: I'm good. How are you? Jason: Welcome to the DoorGrow Show. I'm doing great. Faizan Khan has one of the coolest names that we’ve ever had on the DoorGrow Show. We were joking in green room that it sounds like he’s a gangster rapper, just cool. Actually, you made that joke, because I’m a nerd I said it sounds like some badass [...]. Faizan: That’s right, yeah. It’s a different name. I haven’t heard this name myself before. Faizan, I'm really excited to have you. You have a service that we're going to be talking about today called LetHub. I know nothing about it. I'm excited to ask you a lot of questions. I get curious. Before we get into that, let's talk about you. Where this guy with this cool name came from, what your background is, and why people should listen. Faizan: As a child, I had been involved in entrepreneurship stuff and starting businesses small or big. I'm originally born and brought up in Dubai and Pakistan, considered like a mixture. Then I moved to the UK for a bit and after that I have been living in Canada. I've lived in five different countries throughout my life. I love traveling. Whenever I get a chance, I try to go to any other spot that I can go to, provided there's no Coronavirus over there. I'm really interested in real estate. I've had a bunch of start-ups before. I saw this opportunity of using AI to automate rental property management, so I started this company called LetHub. We are in our start-up phase but we're doing pretty well working with a few clients in Canada and States. We're trying to help people to automate all of their leasing requirements so they could sit down and focus more on how to grow. Right now, we're using a very sophisticated AI to interact with renters, resolve their problems, get them to the doors, and all that stuff. We can get deeper into that. That's my background of why I started and who I am. Jason: This sounds really interesting. A lot of people talk about AI and you hear that thrown around. I think the term can sometimes be used very loosely. Their version of an AI is they're creating a chatbot with multiple threads of what they need to be done. Faizan: That’s a very good question. I think a lot of people are sort of sold on the idea that AI is basically just like a pre-made thread of questions or a pre-scripted bot. But the truth here is that it understands something in a similar way as a human would, like the sentences or words I'm saying to you, your brain is breaking them down, understanding the context of that, processing it, and then replying. That's how our brain works. A good AI would understand that, even a better or a genius AI would really learn. If it creates a mistake, you can teach it what to do or it could teach itself what to do next. An example would be if someone says hey, do you allow pets, or hey, do you love furry friends? The AI would respond saying that, hey, we do. This is our pet policy. The renter would say, hey, is a small dog or cat okay? The third thing that the renter says is context. The context is do you allow any pets. Truly, I would not understand that, but an actual AI would understand the context. Jason: How does one go about starting to build an AI thing? Is there an AI system that you are leveraging to build? Is that how this works? Faizan: Yeah, that's a good question. You need a data scientist, number one, and you need to build some algorithms. You need to understand how machine learning works. It's a lot of techy-techy stuff to get data, to train the AI from an infant to a child to an adult. It's a simple process like any other human would be trained, how we grow up, we learn a few words, and then we're taught a few things. Pretty much like that. We use a supervised learning approach. It's a very sophisticated machine learning approach. Our goal is to make the experience for renters and landlords very easy. From our tests, we see that a lot of people ask the same questions. We cut that down, get people to the door rather than them giving you a call or sending you hundreds of emails. Jason: Let's talk about the problem first. What problem have you seen to the property managers you're dealing with that you thought maybe AI can help with this? Faizan: First and foremost in a very dense city where I was living in Vancouver, it's very hard to get a rental apartment. The demand is high. Everyone is looking. For us as renters, it was getting impossible. It would take two months to get something, that's how I started. I was like, why is this process not solved? If I send an email to a landlord, why am I not getting a reply? If I show up there are 20, 30 other people, I need to fill out a new rental application every time. If you go into 10 units or 10 different spots or places, it will be 10 different applications and that's all while you're working 9:00 to 5:00 as a professional. That's how I started. Why do we use AI? AI is not going to replace humans, but it's going to substitute a lot of their work that they do so they can focus on other stuff. A lot of the problems that property managers face are mostly around getting the best tenants and then keeping them. What's the retention rate? That's one of the bigger problems in multifamily and also single family.  I believe that you can cut that whole process down to finding someone from a listing, to getting them to the door, and to sign the lease. You can cut the time down by around 60 to 70%. If you're spending four to five hours a day, if you have a lot of vacancies or spending a lot of time just on replying to people with the same questions and it gets monotonous, you might lose focus. You're not that happy talking to people. That's where an automated system comes in.  People like to chat, especially millennials. They don't want to call. They want instant replies. Our product comes in there and solves this problem. It replies to everyone's questions and books you a tour right away into the leasing team's calendar. It provides a nice CRM for property managers just to have a look at who's coming when, weather details, do they qualify, all that good stuff. It also handles emails coming through. We see that 50 to 60% of property managers get emails than calls. Emails and texts are the king right now in terms of communicating. We deal with that as well. Jason: LetHub is handling emails? Faizan: Yes. Jason: It's dealing with text messaging too? Faizan: Yeah. Apart from calling, everything. Our AI assistant is dealing with all the online web chat. You can put it on your website or you can just post it on ours. It would reply to your emails. It would reply to the text. It will send reminders, all that good stuff. Honestly, there's a lot of companies that have already built this, but the automation piece is missing. There's always some manual work. We built it in a way where you can just click a button and start using it. There's no need for a three week training. I hate that. Jason: What are you seeing in terms of how this is impacting the clients that you brought on some of your initial prospects? What are you seeing? What are they noticing? What's different for now? Faizan: I don't want to jump the gun on this one, but I think it's helping people not to hire more which is scary. An example is one of our clients, they used to hire interns who would take calls, reply to emails, and then give the lead to a leasing agent who would go out there and show the unit, do a tour and then sign the lease and all that stuff. They stopped hiring an intern because now the system’s so automated, they’re getting good results. From a leasing agent’s perspective, they’re leasing faster. Those hundreds of emails they get, because it’s automated, they can filter through renters faster and get signed leases faster. The rate of listing to lease, the timeline has decreased. We've been measuring that very specifically. Minutely looking at is that the USP, is that actually the time spent by a leasing agent, but it's both. If someone spends on these activities, that goes down and the time to lease goes down as well. Jason: Let's go through the lifecycle then. I want to understand which pieces of the lifecycle of dealing with prospective tenants, showing the property, getting the lease, then on boarding, how much of this is LetHub connecting with and helping with? Faizan: Our goal is to get people to the door. Jason: It's getting people to the showings and getting showings scheduled and that sort of thing? Faizan: Yeah. It's answering our questions, dealing with increased, pre-qualifying people, and getting them to the door according to your schedule. Just get them to the door and then after that you could do the rental application or whatever you'd want to do, but also we get feedback as well. We're getting them to the door. If they don't like the property, we're getting some feedback as to why they didn't like the property or something like that. The goal is to get them to the door fastest with good pre-qualification, answering all their questions that they might have, and booking tours in a smart way. If you manage more than 400 units, 1000 units, or even 2000 in our case, then your time is money in that sense. There'll be no shows. There'll be people who are not that qualified. You'll always be dealing with not a higher quality of tenant like prospective renters. Jason: Give listeners an idea of the pre-call process, like some of the questions you might ask or what property management might have connected or built out in that piece. Faizan: I've built the algorithm myself with the help of my CTO. It's highly customizable. Obviously staying within human rights, there's some questions you cannot ask but it's customizable. You put your criteria and river our AI. We'll make sure she gets those answers from people. Jason: What are some of the questions that it's asking? You had mentioned earlier like maybe pets, maybe if they've had an eviction before. Faizan: You could ask anything from if you had an eviction, do you smoke, do you have any pets, how many people are moving in, why are you moving, are you a student. A lot of people ask this. We suggest people not to ask more than four questions, otherwise, that drives renters away. The top four I'm telling you is number one is pets, what's your moving date, when do you want to move in, are you a student or do you have a job, that sort of thing, and then the fourth is please tell me a bit about yourself. Generally, tell us whatever you would want. Though you can keep the criteria strict. If they don't fall under your criteria, they don't actually book a tour. We'd show them other properties. Jason: I understand the idea of decreasing the amount of time wasting type of calls where they're just asking details about the property. Will this be able to pull in some of the data on some of the properties through API or connect, because most property managers have all this in their property management software? If somebody's getting into your chat tool or the system and asking what's the square footage on this property or where is this located, how many of these things can it feel? Faizan: All we ask people to do is connect their Buildium or Yardi account and then go from there. We are constantly working on improving the integration and it will have enhanced integration with time. Right now if you as a property manager want to have a taste of LetHub, just let us know and we'll add a few of your properties. You can have an experience and then we can attach your integration and all that stuff. But we're not really partners with any of these companies, we just want to be clear. These are one off requests from property managers where they say this software, can you integrate so that we help them integrate. There's some softwares that do not have APIs. Jason: What manager has a full API, I guess property now has an API? Faizan: Yeah, probably Rent Manager. I was talking to the folks at Rent Manager as well. We're in moving talks with them soon. We'll meet with them at the conference as well. With Buildium, they don't really have an open API, same way as bigger companies like Yardi or RealPage. They have a paid API so they have this whole program. But we're happy to work with anyone. The key is to cut down the time it would take to on board anyone if they are using a very sophisticated software. We're happy to work with them and help them set that up while not changing anything. That's the important part. They keep doing what they're doing, we're just going to be working on the side getting them into leads. Jason: LetHub can operate as a chat tool on their website for people that are coming there. How does it help them via their listings that are out on the internet on various channels? Faizan: All the channels, email, text, and just having a web link, when you list your property, all you do is you just connect your email with our web platform. When you list your property just in the description and say, hey, click here to book a tour, or you can just redirect users to your own website. If you spent a lot of money on branding and making your website amazing, which a lot of people have, just redirect them to your own website and the river would just pop up and guide the user to book a tour or answer any questions. Jason: What questions are property managers asking you that are a little bit curious or wary or whatever? What are some of the most common questions they're asking about LetHub before they're willing to take it for a full spin and utilize it? Faizan: That's a good question. I think it depends on the size of the company. We were in talks with Aimco which has 10,000 units, bigger company, and multifamily. Their number one problem is integration so they would want integration with their current software which is totally fine. Make sense, bigger companies, got more complex. With the smaller property managers, I think their major concern is that will people be okay chatting with an AI versus a human. I want to be clear on this that nobody's replacing nobody over here. We're just helping people and we've got the tests to show you that that's the future. There's a lot of banks using this technology and you can order a pizza. I don't know how smart it is, but you can order a piece of pizza through an AI assistant. Jason: Anything else you want to let people know about LetHub before we wrap this up and how can people get in touch and maybe check this out? Faizan: Yeah, for sure. I think if you're a property manager who is looking to automate things so you don't have to run after renters and if you're looking to really use the latest and greatest tech, then please get in touch with us. Our website is lethub.co. You can email me at faizan@lethub.co, I'll be happy to do a demo myself or one of my team members would do it for you. Happy to chat about your problems and see if we can build a more customized solution for you. Yeah, that's about it. Keep growing I guess. Jason: Faizan Khan, really great having you on the show. I appreciate you hanging out with me today and we'll let you go. Faizan: Awesome. Thank you so much. Jason: Awesome to have him on. Check out LetHub and let us know inside the DoorGrowClub Facebook group what your experiences are if you decide to try them out, what you think. We'd be really curious to hear about your feedback. Go post an update inside the DoorGrowClub. Get to that on doorgrowclub.com. That's our community for this property management podcast. If you are wanting to figure out how to grow your business, you're struggling to grow, you're running into issues, reach out to our team. Check us out at doorgrow.com. Until next time everybody, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.

New cast cameos as we search for an old acquaintance on Bandameerwww.rollmongers.comwww.teespring/rollmongers for merchSeason 3 ep. 3 Impromptu Doctors appointments keep Dr. leth busy for most of the episode. The party Finally reaching Banomeer for resupply and picking up a new 501-Z police droid, we meet an old partner of Rahaul's.Music:Intro: Star Wars - The Force Theme (Far Out Remix)Far out official – Far-out-the-force-theme-star-wars-coverStar wars soundtrack x-wing formation by Kurt Thomlinson"Busy Space Port""Dying Planet""Starship medical""Starship Bridge""Deep Space eva""Alien night club"All by Table top audio .comStar Wars - The Force Theme (Far Out Remix)OutroOriginal track is "Feel it still" by Portugal the Manhttp://x-minus.pro/track/341408/feel-it-still#Parody Lyrics:I keep the force to myselfAll because the emperor ruined it for everyone elseWe gotta find a place to hideGuess we`re going underground nowOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillGotta make it out to TheedGonna reason with the senators try to make it better nowSomewhere out theres gotta be freeI guess I`ll head to Alderran nowOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillWe should fight a war for peace(Ooh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks now)Ressurect the Jedi, bring the emporer down to his kneesThe Sith mean nothing to meI should strike them all down now(Ooh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks now)There'll be no aquittal for the sith who killed the littlePa-da-wansHe is my enemyIs he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming back?Ooh Woo I'm a rebel just for kicksand I'm gonna keep on going till the galaxy is fixed nowCause the force is strong and I feel it stillOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillCause the force is strong and I feel it stillBest Regards,Matthew WittHVAC Designer and InstallerHRAI Cert# 8797 (RASD, RHLG)Cell: (705) 464-0916

This week’s episode is about The Signs of Depression and What You Need to Know. We look at this from an energetic perspective along with mindset. 01:50 Depression is Not a New Thing Depression's a really big deal and it's not a new thing. The ancient Greeks called it black bile. There's a one in six chance that you'll deal with this at some point in a significant way in your lifetime. It's that prevalent and I think a lot of the time, it doesn't look or feel or sound like what we think it's supposed to so we're like, no, that couldn't be me. Nick 08:40 How do You Approach it? So when you work with somebody in healing for anxiety or depression, how do you approach it?  KISMA 08:52 Small Steps Anxiety has a lot to do with harnessing the energy and directing it in a really positive way because there is a more productive way. With depression, particularly when somebody's having a tough time finding the energy and the motivation to do anything, it's really about small steps. So the exercises that I teach in energy mastery are really important. When you have those tools to really clean up in a very thorough way, everything that's going on in the system and systematically, then you have a way to release it.  It'll move and then you have a little bit more to take the next step. Nick 10:19 The Energy Perspective So from the energy perspective of say, the chakra system that you work on, where would you start or does it depend on each person? KISMA It kind of depends on each person. Basically the biggest one for everybody is solar plexus. Not only because it is a clearing house for lower emotion and it gets congested super easily just by living life, but also because all of your major organs are right there. And if you think about a chakra kind of as an organ that lives outside the body, well that chakra is responsible for all those organs. So when the chakra, when that particular place, gets really bummed up, then it can really have an impact physically very, very quickly. Nick 11:19 Spark of Light What do you recommend for someone who is tiptoeing in the state of depression? To take a different action or have a different thought around it? KISMA If somebody is kind of skirting on that, it's definitely keeping in motion, keeping your body active. And then to me, creative action is one of the things that really adds some kind of spark to it. Go do what lights you up. Nick I think when the human becomes creative, there's at least a little spark of joy that lights up. And as we know from the spiritual perspective, if we can focus on a spark of light, it really does become a glow. It takes on a bigger glow. KISMA 15:21 Moving the Body I want to know more from your perspective about moving the body. What does that do and why is that important for someone who has depression or is in a depressed state? What does moving the body do to the energy in the field? KISMA Not only do you have the chakra system, you have all of these meridians in your body. You are very intricate and there’s an energy system that's fueling your body and moving it. And when your body doesn't really move, then those things tend to get stuck. So physical activity helps. It gets everything moving as well. So the stuck things can start to flush out and it brings your energy up. Depending on the kind of workout that you do or the kind of exercise, it can increase endorphins too, which will give you a nice little lift. Nick 24:04 There is a Solution Just to come full circle for anyone struggling now in the quarantine or for anyone who's listening down the road. There is an opening. There's always an opening. There is a way out because just like any problem, there's always a solution. We have to have a willingness to see it or receive it. KISMA 31:54 A Higher Truth There's always a higher truth. There's always a higher truth and do reach out if you need some support. If you feel like you're struggling, you need some extra help, go to . There'll be an option to take the Ultimate Life Tool. There'll also be an option to set up a session with Nick and to dive in and do some healing right away. It's well worth it to invest in yourself for some extra care should you need it. KISMA I'd love to hear from you.  Nick

In this episode of "Steve has a Chat", I catch up again with Steven Guggenheimer "Guggs" to get the latest on the ISV Connect program. It seems that the word is out at Microsoft about calls from me... they all seem ready now. But I still had a few surprises for him.  Enjoy! BTW, don't forget, Mark Smith (@nz365guy) and I do PowerUpLive every Tuesday at 4PM EST, click here to be alerted, and here's a link to the replays! Transcript below: Steven Guggenheimer: Hello. This is Guggs. Steve Mordue: Hey, Guggs. Steve Mordue. How you doing? Steven Guggenheimer: Good. How are you doing? Steve Mordue: You know how I'm doing. You know why I'm here. Steven Guggenheimer: I do. I do. I assume we're get to go do a little update session, and so I know or I assume you're recording and- Steve Mordue: You bet I am. Steven Guggenheimer: ... whatever I say is ready to go. Steve Mordue: You got time? Steven Guggenheimer: Sure. Yeah, I got a little time. Steve Mordue: All right. Perfect, perfect. Well, it's been a while since we talked. It's actually been a while since we've heard from you. I was looking, and I think November was the last post, kind of an update to the world of what's going on. I've been hearing the hammers banging back in the background, but lots of folks, lots of ISVs are reaching out to me for some reason or other, saying, "Hey, what's the latest? What's going on? What's happening on that ISV front?" Steven Guggenheimer: Yep. Like you said, lots of hammers in the background. Once you get into that middle of the year, you're just mostly heads down trying to do two things, trying to solidify all the work that's going on for this year, so working with the field. The team went out and did a field tour and, on lots of calls, we have our middle of the year checkpoint. You're just grinding away on that, and you start doing the planning for the next fiscal year. It turns out our Q3, which is January, February, March, is kind of double busy. You're working pretty hard to do whatever tweaks you need for this year and you're busy planning for the next year, and so I think everybody's been pretty heads down. Steven Guggenheimer: Then you get into January and February with the virus coming out, I think you're busy trying to figure out, "Are we going to do [MBAS 00:02:13] live?" You plan for one version of it, and then you plan for a different. You're working with customers and partners. I think all of those things combined means everybody's busy. My virtual team gets together on a regular basis, and I've got a couple of calls after this, so that's where we're at. Steve Mordue: The ISVs have definitely had some challenges with Microsoft. Not all of this, of course, is within your area. You're working on the program for ISVs that will link to the products, which you're not related to the products. You're related the program. But on the product side, even, the ISVs are having some challenges. I know that there's been ISVs that... The platform keeps shifting, keeps moving around, new things added, things dropped. I even know some ISVs that have said, "Hey, they just launched something, and it kind of wiped out my whole solution." Steve Mordue: I think there's multiple things going on on the ISV side that's got a lot of them nervous, and I think they're looking for some reassurance that, "We bet on the right platform, and was that a good bet, and when are we going to see a payoff on that bet?" What kinds of things can you say to maybe reassure some of these ISVs that are out there that are scratching their heads saying, "Hmm, what's next? I mean was this a good bet?" Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. I can't think of a better bet right now, but that's me. Of course, I'm on the wrong side of the fence for that. The- Steve Mordue: Well, we're all biased. Even us ISVs are biased. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, we're all biased. Steve Mordue: We're all biased. Steven Guggenheimer: Well, people want a little reassurance that, to your point, that they made good decisions. From a platform and product perspective, there's probably never been more energy in the combination of Power Platform and D365 than we have today. I talked a lot about product truth. I didn't think there was a lot of product truth for an ISV in the platform SaaS offerings if you go back five years when we were in the DPDx days. Steven Guggenheimer: James and [Mohamed 00:04:24] and Charles have just been cranking along, and so from the breadth of the portfolio and the quality in that link to Azure going down the stack and that link to SharePoint and M365 going up the stack and the coherence in the platform. Then we've been cleaning up. I mean God bless the team for all the work they've had to do to clean up just years and years of monolithic offerings that weren't in good shape. That speaks a little bit to the change of the underlying platform. Steven Guggenheimer: We're probably as solid as we've ever been. We've got a twice-a-year release train. The notes come out early. We did an ISV session for the partners to get ahead of it. We'll do that again on an every-six-month basis. Satya is sort of heavily invested. Scott's heavily invested. Amy, our CFO, is heavily invested. I think there's both product or platform truth. There's good energy in the marketplace. I mean we're growing very well. Steven Guggenheimer: Can't say anything. Q3 will be coming up, but you look at Q2 and Q1, you look at just quarter over quarter, now the platform's growing and, if the platform's growing, that's opportunity, in particular, Power Platform, Power BI, some of the D365 services. I think all of that speaks to just incredible momentum. I see a decent number of ISVs coming into the program and the platform unsolicited wanting to take part in that. Steven Guggenheimer: Now, the one place people might feel a little discomfort is, as the platform solidifies and as the services solidify and we add things like AI and mixed reality in there, there might be places where people were making an investment or were looking to extend that we might be extending in that area. I would say, look, if you're an ISV on the Microsoft platform, historically, one of your trademarks is being somewhat nimble. I don't care if it's all the way back to the Windows days and Windows 95 working your way up through the internet era or intelligent cloud, intelligent edge. The value of a platform is that balance between giving developers something to build on and having enough coherence and consistency that both customers and ISVs can count on it. Steven Guggenheimer: There's a fine balance there in terms of where you add features or functionality or new capabilities to keep up with what your competitors are doing, to keep up with what the customers are asking for. It's a balancing act. I think the good thing, at least in the Dynamics side, is that we're always open for conversation. Whether it's myself or Greg or Mohamed or Charles, look, we'll pick up the phone and we'll have the discussion. There'll be places where people might feel uncomfortable that we've gone in that direction. Great. We'll have that conversation, and we'll talk about, roughly, where we're going without breaking NDAs on either side. Steven Guggenheimer: My feedback to ISVs has always been the, "There's always someone at Microsoft who thinks, someday, they're going to build something that competes with you, so let's focus on the 90% where we don't compete and know that there's going to be 10%." I think that's just a truism. Look, energy is really good. I mean product coherence is good. Product truth is good. If you look at what's going on, right now, during the COVID response and the pickup for the Power Platform in terms of helping hospitals and healthcare workers and quick solutions, holy crud. Steven Guggenheimer: Then the new areas are good conversation, so let's have the discussion. I mean I know a lot of the historical ISVs have been around a long time, and some of the work they did that was either custom on the product side or custom in terms of working with our field as we make that available to everybody, that feels a little less comfortable. We do a good amount of handholding for that. Steve Mordue: Yeah. I think one of the things you guys have been telling ISVs, for years, as a way to build a business but also, in a way, to protect your business is to go vertical. The more vertical you can get, the safer you are. You guys are not going to go there. A lot of horizontal ISVs, and they're... If you're horizontal, you're plugging a hole. You're always at risk that Microsoft's going to get around to the time to plug that hole. You're definitely safer going vertical. Steven Guggenheimer: That's for sure, and that's even more true today. As some of our competitors invest in the acquisition of vertical solutions, it opens up that direction more. I would say, as a company, we're making that pivot, albeit slowly but surely, to industry-led versus product-led. We've always had product conversations. We've always had audience conversations, developers or IT pros. We've always had sides of organization enterprise, but industry was always kind of a... not as strong a direction in terms of how we went to market. We pivoted the company pretty heavily, and Azure's doing a lot of this work at M365, and so is Dynamics. In industry-based solutions, those are always the ones that get the best pickup, and now our sales force is pivoting more and more in that direction. That's the way to stay aligned. Steve Mordue: Yeah. You talked about nimble. Frankly, one of the challenges some of these ISVs have is they're not that nimble. They built a bunch of IP on something, and their goal was to just sit back and collect checks, but you can't do that anymore. We're no longer in a space you just build something and sit on it for years. You may not be able to sit on it for months before you've got to go back in, modify, refactor, take advantage of some new technology or... It's a continuous motion now for ISVs. They're in continuous development mode where they didn't use to be. It was like, "We're going to go build something, sit on it, and cash in." Steven Guggenheimer: And particular in this space, and we see it a lot. I use the term, sometimes, there's this notion of lifestyle businesses where you build something and it supports the lifestyle, and there's not a lot of interest or energy in reinvesting to change it or modify it. Truthfully, that doesn't work. There are places where- Steve Mordue: Tell me about it. Steven Guggenheimer: They're- Steve Mordue: That's what I've been trying to do. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, it's not working. Part of the blog series I've been working on, it's called Continuous Transformation, and it's all... If you look at 25 years or the 26 years of Microsoft, all we've ever done is evolved and changed, and it's driven by technology and scale and culture. I can't remember a period of time where something's not upending the conversation. Steve Mordue: Yeah, but the pace is much greater in the past few years. The shift to the cloud and the catch up, really, because we were behind getting in the cloud, the catch up necessitated a pace that we have not ever seen from Microsoft, this kind of a pace. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. I think, in the line of business application space or the Dynamics/Power Platform, we were further behind in that move, as a Microsoft property, than some of the others, be it Office or Azure, and so we're doing a lot of catch up, and that's why think that... I talked a lot about product truth. I think they've done a phenomenal job, but that's like a bit of a whip where we're as close to it as you can be and, the further out you get, the more you're going to have to go and make those changes, and you're playing a lot of catch up. Steven Guggenheimer: The truth is, D365, there were custom deals floating around there and custom support and all kinds of things that, as you modernize and change, that goes away. I think some [crosstalk 00:12:10]- Steve Mordue: It's not scalable, yeah. Steven Guggenheimer: Well, people get frustrated because they had this special deal. Well, look, we don't even build that product anymore or that product's not one we're trying to sell. We're off doing cloud stuff, so no, we're not going to go renew a set of terms or a set of conditions for something that we're not trying to drive anymore. The market's moved on. That's gone, and so you need to go modify and change your solution to meet the current market needs. Yeah. Steven Guggenheimer: On one hand, I get it. On the other hand, look, the time to move is now. The world is moving, and the opportunity is very good. Despite current conditions which are there, look, there's... The world, the first thing they move is their infrastructure as a service. They move the core horizontal infrastructure out, but sooner or later, the next thing they're going to do is they're going to want to go to a set of SaaS applications. They're not going to want to have a cloud-based infrastructure then run some client server on-premises solution. They're going to want to set a SaaS services. Steven Guggenheimer: Even though people may feel like it's a push or it's a hurry, that's where the world's going. We're going to go push on it, and you need to move your solutions there. Steve Mordue: I'll tell you, it's been very acute, these folks that have on-premise solutions, particularly if they're physically on premise, with this virus and the push to send everybody to work from home in organizations that really weren't set up for people to work from home from a technical standpoint. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. Steve Mordue: I'm sure there are people out there now that are thinking, "Damn, I wish we were in the cloud right now because those guys got it pretty easy working from home if you already made this transition." It's very acute right now. Steve Mordue: I was talking to Charles two weeks ago. I pounced on him, or a week ago, I pounced on him for a call. He was saying one of the things that's a- Steven Guggenheimer: You are getting a bit of a reputation, but keep going. Steve Mordue: Yeah. People are going to be scared and have my number blocked. Steven Guggenheimer: Nobody's going to pick up the phone. Steve Mordue: One of the things he said that was a big focus right now is making everything work better. It's like we were firing off lots of solutions, getting them to like 90%, move on to the next one, fire it off, fire it off. Now there's this effort to kind of go back to this. Let's close these gaps. As he was talking about, there's still some significant gaps in not the product truth. The product truth is there, but there's some gaps that they're now really going to focus on closing. It feels like it's kind of like it's time to do that. We've shot out tons of things. Now let's go back, tighten them all up, and then go back to revisit shooting out more things so- Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, I think that's right. You look for gaps and overlaps. You look for how do we take all the AI scenarios? They're kind of scattered. Can we bring some of them together? Do they make sense together? When they first came into the portfolio, they were sort of all independent, so we ran them uniquely and independently and just kept them going and, excuse me, tried to find alignment with the various SaaS services. Now you go back and you say, okay, where is their consistency? Where is the sum of the parts greater than the individual? Steven Guggenheimer: You go and you look for whether it's process automation and the work we're doing there, whether it's the power of virtual agent. If you look at what they've done in terms of for COVID-19 in terms of using a virtual agent, making it available, how do you turn these into tools that can really scale and operate and work at the levels needed? Steven Guggenheimer: I think Mohamed's got the same thing. There's a bunch of solution areas as we took ERP and CRM and took them into their natural marketing and sales and finance and operations, and we picked up some other areas. He's doing that same work. Now is a beautiful time to not necessarily double the number of offerings or add a whole bunch of new products. It's now is the time to take the momentum we've got and the offerings we've got and fill in the gaps and, where there's overlap, bring things together, make these things really operate at scale. Steven Guggenheimer: When you have the energy and you've got the interest, then what you start to get is feedback on what you're missing or what's not quite right. We want to take advantage of this time to go work on that. Steve Mordue: Let me circle this back to your space, the ISV side specifically. Over the past month, I've had two calls with some folks on your team that were looking for my opinion about some complaints they were getting, because you know I have opinions, about some complaints they were getting from some ISVs that had built their solution depending on this Team Member license and the changes to Team Member. I am actually aware of a couple of these ISVs that actually built their solution on the Team Member license without regard for the restrictions of that license. Certainly pretty easy to make your ISV solution have a lot of appeal if you've put it on a lesser license than it should be on. Steven Guggenheimer: Right. Steve Mordue: They're complaining now about the changes. Both of your folks had asked me my thought about that. I said, basically, "The hell with them." I mean I have no sympathy for somebody who built a solution on top of a license they shouldn't have. If you can't make revenue on the right license, then your solution's not right or you're thing isn't right. I mean do you have similar feelings of lack of sympathy for those folks that did those things? Steven Guggenheimer: I sort of think about it a little bit differently. Yes, look, there's people that take advantage of, it maybe intentionally or unintentionally, of licensing they shouldn't. That just has to get fixed, and we'll go work on that. Steven Guggenheimer: What there is that I think about is there are two scenarios that I think of as light use or light functionality scenarios. If you have something, a very large group of people... Students is a good example. Healthcare workers might be a good example. Pick your scenario where you have lots of people, and you have some people that are heavy users, and you have some people who might touch the solution once or twice a year or who touch the solution quite often, but they need just a very lightweight answer to it. They're not- Steve Mordue: A light touch. Steven Guggenheimer: They're users. They're users versus creators. That lightweight or light touch scenario is one we still are trying to figure out the right scenario for because there's not a great license type for this. By the way, this isn't a Dynamics-type conversation. I can say the same thing for Office for all the years it was there and people would talk about different types of workers. It's one of the- Steve Mordue: Contract workers, things like that. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, yeah. They used to use the term knowledge workers, and there was something else I can't remember. There is a collective challenge, which is how do you build a licensing framework where you can't tell between the two, light touch or light use, or you can tell but there's no consistency. If I ask the question, "What does light touch mean to one ISV or light use?" I'll get a very different answer than what I get from another one, so you can't design a licensing type that works for everyone. Steven Guggenheimer: That's one where I definitely have some empathy. It's not a sympathy term. I get it. I don't know what the answer is. To your point, ultimately, you have to design the solution to work with the licensing types that are out there. There's this funny juxtaposition between everybody wants simplicity but everybody wants all ultimate choice. Well, those two things aren't the same. You either get simple or you have the... and not as much choice or you get all the choice in the world. It's the most complex thing you'll ever seen, and so I don't know the answer to solving for this one. Steven Guggenheimer: I know that the licensing teams are very aware of it. They've had tons of these calls, in a good way, but there's not... I don't know the answer. I haven't seen anybody figure out the answer in 10-plus years of banging heads on this, and so I do think trying to design a solution for the licensing types that are out there is the right thing to do. Team doesn't serve that purpose. It's gone relative to that where people try to use it for something that it wasn't designed for, which in many cases, is that light use, light tough scenario, but it doesn't work. Steven Guggenheimer: We'll keep banging our heads. We'll keep talking to people. People do have to work within the licensing confines that are out there. We're always evolving them. We're always taking feedback. We're always trying to do better. Assuming something's going to come magically, it doesn't happen. Steve Mordue: We're not alone there. I was reading the Forrester Report on low-code solutions. We're obviously up there at the top now with a couple of others. The negative for all of the ones at the top was overly complex licensing. I was just thinking to myself, "You know what? Whoever figures that out is going to win because that's the thing holding all of the low-code platforms back a little bit is people can't figure out how to buy it." They just can't. Partners can't figure out what to sell. Customers can't figure out what to buy, too many moving parts in the licensing. Fortunately, we're not the only ones that have that problem, but whoever could figure that out is really... I'm sure you guys have got some smart people trying to figure that out. Steve Mordue: A couple of other things before I let you go. On- Steven Guggenheimer: Well, just on that one, there's also a difference between the customer angle for that and the ISV angle. Trying to figure out a licensing framework that works well for customers and ISVs, whether it's the low-code scenario or some of these others, it adds to the complexity. I highlight that in the sense that customers are a big chunk of... That's typically where we start first when we're working on a licensing framework because they're the... many times are the purchasers or it ends up as part of a broader agreement set, and so we have to figure that out, and so that- Steve Mordue: Actually, I think it's easier for ISVs because, as an ISV, I can figure out and understand what license would be necessary to run my solution and talk to a customer about, "Here's exactly what you need to run my solution." Bigger challenge, I think, for customers and SIs where a customer's like, "We want to do all these wonderful things," and then for them to try and figure out what kind of licenses they might need to accomplish those things. At least I know what I'm doing with my solution. It's pretty straightforward. I may have to shift it from a license I used to have it on to some different licensing construct as things changes, but it's a little easier for me. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. Steve Mordue: One of the things that came up in one of my calls with a pretty good size ISV recently was the lack of... I think he told me his costs this year are going to be over $90,000 for Microsoft licensing to be able to actually build and develop their solutions on between their multiple sandboxes, different things like that. It's a frustration for him that, "I'm building an ISV solution, a big one. I have lots of customers that are generating licenses and revenue for Microsoft, but I'm having to spend, as an ISV, a ton of money to even be able to do that." Steve Mordue: We had that ISV competency out for about eight minutes, decided that wasn't a good path. Some of the other paths to get IUR and those sorts of things that you would need to build on aren't always relevant for ISVs. The biggest thing the ISV competency really gave was, "Here. Here's some benefits. Here's some resources for you to go build on." What can we tell those folks that... I mean this guy's literally having to buy retail. You know? Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. That's a Microsoft-level challenge in many ways. It's the what's the benefits? It really comes out of the MPN, the Microsoft Partner Network. What's the benefits? That's where that competency came from of being a partner and, if you're an ISV, how can you get access to the software you need to build a solution? Steven Guggenheimer: I know that the team is deeply aware of that. It's from the day the ISV competency went away to through all the conversations. I haven't checked in in a while to see where they are on coming up with an offering. I'll go back and ask. It's a good question. I don't know. Look, I don't know the answer, the how do you provide software? It ends up being, to your point, sandboxes or one-offs or these other things versus what's the programmatic approach that scales across Azure, Dynamics/Power Platform at M365? How do we make it available? What do you need to do to qualify, as a partner, so it's not just out there for everybody? It's an expensive offering [crosstalk 00:25:23]- Steve Mordue: Yeah, so is manning an ISV practice with developers and people to build, so- Steven Guggenheimer: Yep. No, they're both... That's right. Steve Mordue: Yep. Steven Guggenheimer: How do we find that balance? I don't know. Again, it's a little bit like a light-usage, lightweight licensing SKU where I haven't seen the answer to that. This is one of those ones that pops up and down in terms of, sometimes, we seem to give a lot of benefit in that direction, and sometimes we don't. Let me go back. I'll go back. It could be one of the last things I can go poke on a little bit, especially since- Steve Mordue: Yeah. That would be good. Steven Guggenheimer: Especially since I know Nick super well. Nick Parker took over the... He has the ISV remit underneath him now, so I'll go bug him about that. Steve Mordue: Yeah, we kind of kicked the can down the road when the ISV competency went away, kind of grandfathered everybody into business biz apps or some other competency while we figured it out, but now we'll be looking at people coming up on that expiring, and they'll be like, "Okay, now what do I got?" I mean it's obviously a big expense for ISVs when they're looking at partnering with Microsoft. They're thinking, "Here's something you can do for me," but other things- Steven Guggenheimer: No, that's super constant, consistent feedback. That's not a new one. We probably had that conversation the first time we did a call and- Steve Mordue: Every time since. Steven Guggenheimer: Every time since, and I still haven't... It's one I get to poke on. It's not one that I own, but it's one that I'll go poke on again. Steve Mordue: How is ISV Connect? Have you guys collected revenue yet? Are we at the point where we're collecting revenue from ISVs? Steven Guggenheimer: Oh, yeah. Yeah, collecting revenue. We crossed 1,000 ISVs that have signed the agreements. I think we've crossed 1,000 apps in AppSource now. We've done all the work to remove the ones that didn't go through certification that didn't join ISV Connect. Steven Guggenheimer: We're actually in a good in a good spot. We've got a decent number at the 20% level, and we're trying to get the ones that our field is really asking for aligned with more of the 20-percenters because those are the ones that are going to close out with the most. I feel really good about the getting people into the program. We've gotten the time to do the certification down. That's all been cleaned up. I think terms and conditions, we've been through all of that. We're heading into the next year. We won't add a lot, so keep it simple, do more of the same. Steven Guggenheimer: The place we're spending energy now is on the benefits side. We've got almost all the partners activated with their marketing benefits now, and they've had the call, and we're working on that. On the co-selling side, look, we're continuing to do the work with the field to drive that forward. Some people feel pretty good about it and we get really good feedback, and some people don't feel as good quite yet, and so we're working on both of those. Steven Guggenheimer: Now as you head into Q4 with an economic challenge around the world, everybody hunkers down a little bit, so we're going to have to work a little harder. One of my meetings later today is how do we stay focused on the right things and the fewest number of things to keep the momentum going as we head into this year and next? We're doing the planning for what would we tune for next year. Overall, it's going well. Steven Guggenheimer: The operations, a lot of the challenges we had, once you got past the people discomfort with a new program, a lot of challenges we had were operations. We're cleaning those up. We have some marketplace work to do. We've had good calls with that team. When people give us feedback, we understand it. We're doing the engineering work now. I sort of feel like we'll work our way through Q4 this year and then, as we head into the next year, we'll have both an engineering uptick on operations work, on the marketplace, on the back end. There's work going on on Partner Center because it's going to scale to more and more partners across the company. Steven Guggenheimer: I feel pretty good, not perfect. I always say these things are a journey and they take time, that's for sure, and so we'll- Steve Mordue: Yeah, yeah. It always takes longer than you think, right? Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, yeah. I'm scarred enough to know that we still got another year of cranking away, but we're in a good spot given where we were. The energy's in a good place. We just got to keep focused and keep going. Steve Mordue: Yeah. Maybe there's a way to solve both those problems. I seem to recall, at least, the initial benefits that were being, "Here, in exchange for the rev share, we're going to give you guys these benefits." A lot of those benefits were targeting brand-new ISVs. A lot of the benefits on that list for an established ISV, they were like, "Oh, I don't need this. I don't need this. I don't need a bunch of these things as an established ISV." Those are all, certainly, high value to someone brand-new to the platform, which is something we all want is more ISVs. Maybe there's a way to tie in those IURs or the benefits back to, "Okay, you don't want a marketing thing? Fine. How about if we give you some credits that you could use towards the underlying platform stuff you might need that could be a little more value to those folks?" Steven Guggenheimer: That's some of the conversations we're having is which benefits are people finding value in? Where would they like to see other benefits? The IUR is a constant one, so that one I sort of table off on the side because it's a consistent. Steve Mordue: Yeah, yeah. Definitely, benefits will be different for someone brand new to the platform who's never done anything versus someone who's been there for a long time. Let me ask- Steven Guggenheimer: Right. This is one of the trade-offs when you go... A platform is only as strong as its ecosystem. To make the ecosystem stronger, you're going to add more people in, and so you're going to bring people in. Part of what you're trying to do is attract that. Not all of those things feel great for the people that have been there and been working on it. That's where a little bit of the tuning and being agile helps because you're adapting to... Look, the platforms are going to scale and grow. It's in a good spot, so there's going to be more people you know on it, and so we have to find that the tools that work for everyone. Steve Mordue: Yeah. Thanks to your little kick, I got a call next week with about a dozen people on the AppSource team, so they're going to get an earful of all my opinions so they can put that in the mixer. Steven Guggenheimer: No, I think it'll be good because look... and they know. To be honest with you, they know. We told them, "Look, it's better to hear directly. There's a couple of folks, we're having them talk to you. They're sending me the feedback," and then they can tell you where they're at and what they're doing and why it's taking a little longer than maybe people had hoped for. That's the beauty of doing it right and getting it fixed is... not the beauty, the reality. Steve Mordue: Necessity. Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah, the reality or the necessity. It's a little like rebooting this program. Steve Mordue: I want to wrap up here because I don't want to take up too much of your time. Steven Guggenheimer: Yep. Yeah, I got somebody- Steve Mordue: You recently announced a retirement. Steven Guggenheimer: Yep. Steve Mordue: Coming soon. Who's going to be stepping into your shoes for this ISV motion? Figured that out yet? Has that been just thought about? Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. No, we're going to move the team into another part of the organization. It'll be close to the Accelerator Team, which used to report to me anyway, and the Industry Team and with one of our real good leaders and with DSI. It'll end up in a spot with Greg and Sean still running their teams aligned with the work going on for another key part of the ecosystems, which is SIs, and the industry work, which has a ton of ISV work. It's all the accelerators. Again, that team used to report into my org, so it'll feel like a pretty natural connection into places it would fit and the people we've worked with pretty closely all along. Steve Mordue: You're going to have every single one of these issues fixed, buttoned up, running like a well-oiled machine before you walk out the door, right? Steven Guggenheimer: I'm going to stay committed to doing the best job to make sure we're set up well for our next fiscal year to transitioning well and to being there. Then I'll be around for a little longer to make sure if there's questions or engagements that are needed to done that I do them. Steve Mordue: All right, cool. Well, I'm looking forward to everything that that comes. Thanks for making the time for the call. Steven Guggenheimer: No worries. I always enjoy a surprise call on whatever day it is. Days get lost nowadays, but- Steve Mordue: Yeah. I'll bet you enjoy them, right? Steven Guggenheimer: Yeah. Steve Mordue: All right, man. Have a good one. Steven Guggenheimer: All right. We'll talk you, Steve. Take care. Bye.

http://x-minus.pro/track/341408/feel-it-still#Original track is "Feel it still" by Portugal the ManParody Lyrics:I keep the force to myselfAll because the emperor ruined it for everyone elseWe gotta find a place to hideGuess we`re going underground nowOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillGotta make it out to TheedGonna reason with the senators try to make it better nowSomewhere out theres gotta be freeI guess I`ll head to Alderran nowOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillWe should fight a war for peace(Ooh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks now)Ressurect the Jedi, bring the emporer down to his kneesThe Sith mean nothing to meI should strike them all down now(Ooh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks now)There'll be no aquittal for the sith who killed the littlePa-da-wansHe is my enemyIs he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming?Is he coming back?Ooh Woo I'm a rebel just for kicksand I'm gonna keep on going till the galaxy is fixed nowCause the force is strong and I feel it stillOoh woo I'm a rebel just for kicks nowI`ve been rocking it since order 66 nowThe force is strong, and I feel it stillOoh woo I`m a rebel just for kicks nowWhy`d the emperor say order 66 nowBut the force is strong and I feel it stillCause the force is strong and I feel it stillBest Regards,Matthew WittHVAC Designer and InstallerHRAI Cert# 8797 (RASD, RHLG)Cell: (705) 464-0916

How did Chili Piper grow to become one of the hottest new sales software providers, and what would the team do differently if they had to start all over again? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Chili Piper Founder and CEO Nicolas Vandenberghe shares the story of growing his company, from his early days bootstrapping, to what he is doing now that he has secured venture capital funding, and what he would do differently if he had to start over again today. One of the biggest things Nicolas would change is his approach to marketing. Listen to the podcast to learn why he would have started investing in marketing much earlier than he actually did, and how he thinks that would have changed the company's growth trajectory. Highlights from my conversation with Nicolas include: Nicolas started Chili Piper to help solve the problem of companies not booking meetings with interested inbound leads. The solution he developed helps his customer double their bookings. Nicolas credits his early success to achieving product-market fit quickly. The company gained traction in the US market by using what it calls the "bullseye" strategy, which involved targeting highly influential customers to establish social proof. This strategy was successful in helping Chili Piper bootstrap its initial growth. Now that the company has secured venture capital funding and Nicolas needs to scale it, he wishes he had made a larger investment in marketing earlier. Chili Piper calls the category in which it plays "buyer enablement" and is focused on creating products that are so good, buyers will demand to switch to them. This is how Nicolas believes they will unseat the incumbent providers, like Microsoft and Google, that their prospective customers currently rely on.  Resources from this episode: Visit the Chili Piper website Listen to the podcast to learn why startups should invest in marketing early, and how even an unknown startup can take on the industry giants. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth and I'm your host, and this week my guest is Nicolas Vandenberghe, who's the CEO and co-founder of Chili Piper. Welcome, Nicolas. Nicolas Vandenberghe (Guest): Thanks. I'm happy to be here. Nicolas and Kathleen recording this episode. Kathleen: I’m excited to have you here. I've been sort of watching you and your company for a few years now and I have a personal passion for startups. It's something that I've invested a lot of my time in, and I really especially love following startups that bootstrap for some of their time and find success, so I'm really excited to talk to you about that, and how you fueled your growth, and what the company does. About Nicolas Vandenberghe and Chili Piper Kathleen: So let's actually start out, if you would, by having you tell my guests a little bit more about yourself, your background and story, because that's pretty interesting as well, and Chili Piper and what the company does. Nicolas: Sure. I'm originally French, as I'm sure everybody will guess. I came to the US in the mid '90s. I went to Stanford Business School with the idea of traveling the world, and when I was there I met Steve Jobs. He was invited to our class. He sat on the floor. At that time he was CEO of Next, going next to nowhere. It was an amazing experience and I thought, "That's what I want to be when I grow up. I want to be like him, doing tech companies." And so I proceeded to do that and I've done several startups, not quite as successful as Apple, I must say, but enough success to be happy and done three different startups. I also had spent a lot of time in sales, so I funded my studies. I say that I sold newspapers in the streets of Paris. It's a true story. I am very proud of it because I outsold everybody else; this newspaper that sold more than anybody else. So I have a passion for sales and more recently I got to know the world of sales is going to be completely changed. Digital is going to have a big influence and it hasn't happened yet. Right now we are still at the stage where records have been put in place. That's what you call CRM. But it's a different role for crossing the chasm and I make a distinction between a system of records and system of action. The system of action is what should be used to do your job, and that is yet to be invented. So that is the business of Chili Pepper is to say we're going to be the company that will bring central revenue to the scene. Kathleen: I love that, and it's one of the reasons I was excited to talk to you. I've been working in marketing and actually sales, I've been in sales roles as well for a long time, and technology and tech stacks have become an increasingly important part of the daily lives of anybody who's in marketing or sales. It might just be me, but I feel like on the marketing side, there have been just substantial advancements in making the technology a lot more user friendly, but on the sales side, maybe not as much, for the most part. You see that with CRMs and systems of records as you referred to them. Things like salesforce.com. Everyone I talk with kind of both loves it and hates it, and the problem with these platforms, if they're not user friendly, is they don't get used. Your tech stack is only as good as the decisions of the person who is meant to be using it. If they choose to use something else, then it's garbage in and garbage out. So that's my little rant but what I like about- Nicolas: You're absolutely right, and still to this day the service is so bad that these days you have companies saying, "If you don't put your data in Salesforce, I won't pay your commission." It's like threats and punishments to use the software. I mean, imagine if I had to tell my kids, "If you don't use your iPhone, I won't give you any candies." Kathleen: Yeah, it's ridiculous. Nicolas: Right. That's right. Kathleen: It's ridiculous that we're in that position. Yeah. Nicolas: That's why I'm trying to change the system. An introduction to Chili Piper Kathleen: I read an interesting article that said that today every individual, marketer, and salesperson is their own CIO because of this exact problem. Because as a company, you can choose to put software in place but every individual person on that team is going to decide what software they're actually going to use. If there's friction in the process, they're going to find a way around it. It's sort of like water. When water hits an obstacle, it goes around it and carves a new river. And I think that's what people do with software. So tell me a little bit about exactly the problems that Chili Piper solves for because you mentioned that it's great for revenue teams, but what exactly does it do? Nicolas: Yeah, so I started the company to help sales people, and we accidentally stumbled into inbound process. It's something relevant to this podcast. What's happening is we started with helping people schedule their meetings. So especially with complex situations where there's a big SDR team booking a lot of meetings for a big company team, which they should book with the routing being fair with a round robin distribution. So that's how we get started. And I was talking to some of our customers and saying, "What's your job?" and they say, "I am an inbound SDR, and what do you do?" "Some people come to the website, marketing people spend a lot of money to bring them to the website. There's a form to request a demo or talk to somebody. I submit the form and my job is to call them and to book that meeting." I said, "How is that going for you?" and they said, "It's going great. We're converting at 40%." To which I said, "Wait a minute, you're telling me that out of a hundred people who want to have a meeting, only 40 of them get a meeting? Because somewhere they got lost?" That seems completely crazy to me but it seems to be accepted in the industry. That's what it is. You have a 40% conversion rate inbound, you're doing great. I didn't even have the... beat yourself up! I don't want to touch it. I'm 40% right. Thinking like it would be the ultimate achievement. So we decided to build a solution for that and what we did is a small piece of JavaScript that companies put in their webpage, in their form, and when the form is submitted, we get the data from the form. We can augment the data with solutions like ZoomInfo and Clearbit, these kinds of data sources. And in real time, based on this data, we need to find the right rep who should handle that prospect. We can dial the rep and dial the prospect and connect them in real time or we can retrieve the calendar and show options of the prospect and book a time. So instead of saying, "Thank you I need to call you," say, "Just pick a time that works for you," they pick a time they're all set. That seems obvious, but we are the first - and only to this day - company doing it. When I launched it I said, "That seems too obvious to be true. I must be missing something." It turned out I wasn't. All of our customers doubled their conversion rates. We had people at 80% conversion, a lot of people at 70% conversion. We had a company that was at 23% and went up 55% which is a very high volume. So it just works. It was just a matter of innovating, coming up with a new way to do things. The reason why it stayed at that level for so long is because we were just at the junction between the marketing and sales. So marketing thought we were bringing a good job bringing a lot of leads. Sales thought we were doing a good job filling up the leads. The reference point was outbound, right, so all these companies you reach, you convert maybe 10% percent of meetings. In inbound we were getting 40%; that looked good. That was a disconnect, so we're putting that all together with all inbound solutions to do this, handle it very efficiently and improve conversion rates. Kathleen: It's really genius and it's funny how you mentioned that nobody thought of it sooner. You know, it makes me think of an experience that I recently had as a buyer, and I should preface this in saying that you referred to this under the umbrella of buyer enablement because I do think it's all about giving the buyer choices and allowing them to choose the path that they want to take, and not then putting things in their way. It makes me think of, I was recently looking to vet agencies that do pay-per-click marketing and I went on to a website of a particular agency who I will not name and they had sort of like a quiz that they needed me to fill out instead of a contact us form, and I get the logic behind it so I filled out the quiz even though I was sort of annoyed. I just wanted to talk to somebody and then at the end of the quiz, it was like, "We'll get in touch with you to set up a meeting," and I thought, "Well, no." Now I really want to talk to somebody and there was no way for me to go to any kind of a contact form or find any phone number. It's interesting. By the time they emailed me to set up the meeting, I had already found somebody else that I was really happy with. So there's like a perfect example of how the 60% of people who can fill out a form, who say they want to talk to you and then don't actually turn into a viable, bottom of the funnel lead/opportunity, because you've allowed that time in between to be filled with another solution, or they've talked themselves out of purchasing, which I'm sure happens a lot. But it's frustrating. It's frustrating as a buyer. Nicolas: It's crazy, it's crazy. Something similar happened to me. I submitted a form to talk to somebody at LinkedIn. At the time, it was a while back, I wanted to buy a license of their solution, and you had to talk to a sales person, so I submitted the form and they said, "Somebody is going to call you," and to my knowledge, nobody did call me. It turned out that two weeks later, it's not that somebody did call me the next day, but it was a 408 number and I got my setting that it go straight to voicemail, because I didn't know the number, and so I never knew that somebody had called. And it doesn't make sense these days. So with our solution, a company has the option to connect in real time. We even have what we call real time video. So if you... it's used a lot by companies for their in-app solutions, so if they're the free service, or paid service, somebody wants to talk to somebody, the most efficient in-app format for conversation is Zoom Video, because you can see each other, you can share your screen you can really engage with others. We have a real time Zoom Video connection, where you can submit a form and say, "I need to talk to somebody," boom, so here is your Zoom Video link and you're connected to somebody over Zoom. So, that's such a better experience for the potential buyer to be in real time connected to Zoom Video as opposed to waiting and wondering when they're going to be reached out to. Kathleen: I want to make sure I understand. Are you telling me... I get that you guys through this JavaScript code can do this on a website, but you're saying that in-app, somebody can also use Chili Piper and immediately spin up a Zoom conversation with... Nicolas: That's right. Kathleen: That's a game changer. I mean, just like when you talk about trial to customer conversions and adoption and eliminating those friction points early in experience... that's amazing. I did not realize that it did that, which is very very cool. Nicolas: Yeah. I think we need to market it a little bit better. Kathleen: Well, there you go, we're talking about it on the podcast. When should startups invest in marketing? Kathleen: One of the things I am fascinated by is your earlier story with the company, when it first started, because, as I mentioned, I work with a lot of start-ups. I am a head of marketing for a start-up right now, and the conversation always revolves around, in those early days, before you have really deep pockets or VCs have thrown a lot of money at you, what should the approach to marketing be? I feel like there's really two schools of thought from the founders I've met. Either they believe in throwing all their money and resources at sales and having an entirely sales led organization and they defer marketing until after they get a lot of investment money, or they really really believe in marketing and make an early investment in content and building out their top of the funnel, etc. And that's a bit more of a long game but it's a leap of faith so I'm sure there's an in between but I seem to talk to those two people who fall in those two courts. So I'd love to hear what your experience was, because you were successful in your early days bootstrapping. Nicolas: That's a great way to put it, and I will say that I think the right approach is to do the second, the all in, in marketing. I mistakenly did the first and went to sales, so I'm here to exemplify the mistake. We did something right at the beginning -- the strategy that I call the "Bull's eye." When we came up with the first product -- and the first product was around handoff between teams, so distributing between SDRs and account executives -- we had a company come to us and say, "I have this problem, can you solve it for us?" And so the product market fit was easy because somebody came and said, "I have this problem", and we check if other companies have this problem, and we finally did, and so there was no question of having an idea and- Kathleen: I was going to say, because that's the danger of having that one customer who's the squeaky wheel and you build out a product just for them only to find out nobody else wants it. Nicolas: Right, right, so the worst part of that, we actually went to SaaStr. Only SaaS companies, and I went around and said, "Do you have that problem?", "Yes", "Do you have that problem?", "Yes", so more than half had that problem. Then we did something that was inspired by the fashion industry and namely I was exposed to, in the early 2000s, Louis Vuitton, the luxury brand, built their business in the U.S. They targeted the most influential people in the world, the celebrities, so they were not so well known in the U.S. except for a few people. They went to famous actresses and got them free bags and free jewels, so these actresses were photographed. That was the center of the bull's eye. From there, they went to what they call socialites. In every city there are people who are more visible than others. They're social, they're visible. They targeted these people, and from there they extended it. So it was a top down, concentric circle. That worked really well and we did the same and thought, "Okay, which companies are the most influential in our space?" Obviously it's not Beyonce that helps you sell software. It's companies like Square, Greenhouse in New York, Segment in the bay area -- the companies that people look up to and say, "These guys know what they're doing when it comes to sales and marketing." So we targeted these companies. It may have taken longer to get the business from them, but once got the business, other companies came to us and that built our early inbound flow from these companies saying, "Hey I booked with Discover Org," "I booked with Discover Org, that was awesome, that was the same experience," "I booked with Segment and it was great, I just did one yesterday. That was a good experience." So that's what did well to get started to build the foundations. And back to your question from there, what we should have done was build the marketing and expand it, our content and case studies. Instead, what we did is extend our sales team, so that worked. Every rep paid for themselves. We were able to bootstrap. We passed two million without funding. It worked well but now two years later we think, "Well we have to build these foundations," because if you want to grow to the hundreds of millions in revenues, you can not do it without a strong brand, and a strong marketing presence, so we waited too long to build marketing foundations at the outset. Kathleen: This is such an interesting conversation to me and I appreciate your candor in saying you would have done it differently, but I think if somebody is listening they might be thinking, "He says that but they were successful," and so I'm curious what you think would have been different had you started marketing earlier? Would there have been a different outcome or would it have been the pace that would have changed? Nicolas: I expect that we would have grown faster. We typically double over a year, and  expect that we would have done even better than that. You have to think, the number one problem for us starters is product market fit. If our customers more than double their conversion, they have a return investment that is massive. That's obviously the first place to get to, but once we have that then the question becomes, how fast can I go and what's the most effective way to go so for all you listeners, you can bypass the product market fit. The question we're addressing now is how to go from there and the marketing investment is more leverage, so for the same investment, you're able to serve more people. Initially it doesn't work, but when it does work then you have more leverage right there. A piece of content can reach 20,000 viewers. A rep can not be in touch with 20,000 viewers at the same amount of time. That's the leverage you need to get and how you're able to grow at 3x or 4x instead of 2x because you get this leverage from marketing, that's big. We just hired a CMO a few months back, and we're putting all these things in place. That's why I say, we'll see if it all happens, but I have a lot of trust in our CMO and his team to make it happen. I can see he is already putting in the information and I can see how it makes sense. About the "bullseye" strategy Kathleen: Well I definitely think you have a good team, I did a little bit of stalking on LinkedIn to see who was on your marketing team and it looks like a really qualified group of people so I'm sure you're going to see fantastic results from that. I want to go back to something you said earlier, about the bullseye strategy. That's interesting to me because you talked about how Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy used that to bring Louis Vuitton into the US. I've seen it also with one of the people that I sort of idolize who is Sara Blakely, who is the founder of Spanx, she did the same thing. She sent products to Oprah and other people like that. In some respects, that can be really risky, and those are examples of product companies, but if you're sending product to somebody you don't really know, if they're going to do anything with it, if they're going to evangelize it... In your case it was going after really high value accounts. While it's one thing to say, "We're going to do this, we're going to land the biggest fish in the industry," it's another thing to make it happen. So, I am curious, did you have another approach, or what did you do in those early days that you were able to get those meetings, especially as a company, at the time, that these other companies haven't heard of. Nicolas: Yeah, it's actually not so much high value accounts we went after, it's highly visible accounts. It's a strong difference. You get a lot more licences from selling to, say, I am thinking of an example, HP, than you get from selling to Segment. Both are costumers actually, and HP came much later, so we got a lot of licenses. Equal industries, these days. Marketers look up to Segment to what they should do much more than HP, HP is known for other things. The target was not so much larger deals, it was very much who do people look up to. It turned out that you think that, "Well how did you get about getting these costumers," people look up to these companies because they are forward thinking, and because they are forward thinking, they are interested in trying new tech. I remember Segment had this French guy, Gillaume Cabane, and there was this discussion and he pushed back and I said “Hey Guillaume, you're super, and on the leading edge. Surely if I am right, you don't want to have missed it." He said, " Okay, fine we'll do an AB test", and boom, we did an AB test, he went across 61%, it was super successful. He led a team that was known in the industry as forward thinking because he would try new things. That helped us, because we would go to companies that would try new things, because they would implement these practices, and to implement these practices you have to take some risks. You have to go and squeeze new solutions, you have to explore, you have to be willing to try new things. So that's how we did it, and more practically, since...we implemented, and immediately, I did most of this in person. I actually went to events, meet ups and met in person in the early days. It's not really scalable, but in the early days that's the best way to do it. Nobody knows who you are, if you email campaigned people will ignore it, so you have to go in person and engage in person, and try. Once you get a few reference accounts, of course the game changes, and you can go online. How Chili Piper gets customer success stories Kathleen: Well, it definitely seems to be working because, I think, when Chili Piper came on my radar screen, I actually heard Udi Ledergore from Gong talking about some of the results they have gotten. I am curious, you're going after these highly visible accounts, they're having some success. Do you have a particular way of approaching them and asking that they talk about those success stories? Nicolas: Yes, Udi is a great guy and Gong is definitely one of the visible accounts that we love. We do case studies. We have a case study with Gong, it's on our website. We have one with Grow. We have one with Segment. So we definitely package it as success. Then we ask them to share with other companies in the community. Often you have questions in the community say, what should I use, partner with them? That's something we could have done better, but we did pay attention to make sure that these champions would serve as references and would talk about us through case studies, and other type of discussions. How Chili Piper is approaching marketing today Kathleen: Now, you got your first round of funding last spring, was it April of 2019? Nicolas: Yeah. Kathleen: Since then, you've gone on to hire some folks for the marketing team, you mentioned you have a new CMO, and I saw a few other roles. How big is the marketing team today? Nicolas: We just hired....It's four people now. Kathleen: Okay. As you think about looking forward, what is your approach to marketing, what are you looking for in the year ahead? Are there particular things that the company is focused on in terms of building its brand, its content, etc.? Nicolas: Yes. When we took money last year, we were cash positive, so we didn't need the money from the existing business. What we wanted to do was to invest in product development because we developed the new IDs that we thought were mature enough to bring to market, or to start building. I should preface with that our inbound solution is growing. Of course we want to keep growing the business. We're about to launch a very bold take on inbox, so we're taking on Microsoft, Outlook and Gmail. With the new inbox, the difference is a collaborative inbox. The idea that revenue teams will be able to, we syndicate account-related emails across email boxes, so if you take a common account, you can see everything being discussed within the account, directly in the inbox. Let's just say an account, let's say Gong, so if it's just for Gong, I'll see every email that's been sent to Gong, every meeting with Gong directly into my box from everybody. Then I can chat, comment on it, so ask somebody, "Hey, what did you do, say, when you talk to him at that meeting?" It's a collaborative inbox. We think it's exactly the type of approach that sales and revenue teams need, especially the account manager, or CS. We need to know whether that's happened before. We're about to launch that, and back to your question, we have this marketing team of four, what do we expect from the year? Well we have this dual mission of building the business around our solution. As you pointed out, not everybody knows about everything we do, like the in-app solution. And start to position that new product line around our inbox, our collaborative inbox and revenue teams. It's a lot to do. We are going to invest in content because we see that, obviously content marketing stuff works well, but in case there are lot of questions from companies, a lot of the things we do are new, leading edge, the idea of specializing revenue teams... What should the account managers do, what should the CS, costumer success do, how should the head off be done, how to be the best account manager of the best CS? We are fortunate to have a lot of customers who are very smart and have great ideas, so we can bring these ideas, write them up and bring this content. That's a big piece of what you're going to do in the future to lead the change... We said earlier on in the podcast, I'm a big believer that sales and revenues are going to be completely transformed with a new set of tools, so we want to make sure that we evangelize that. How Gong is building the "buyer enablement" category Kathleen: Now, it's interesting to me, because you coined this term buyer enablement and a lot of what you're doing, as you explained rightfully, is new. It's something that hasn't been done before. This inbox, totally different than what anybody has constructed. You know some of the functionality that you have in your initial tools, totally different. I am selfishly going to ask you this because I am fascinated by the topic of category creation. So, as a smaller company, you're thinking about this concept of buyer enablement. I assume you're also talking to analysts, companies like Gartner or Forrester, what have you? How do you look at that, because everything I've read, and I've researched, and seen about category creation, it's an incredibly difficult play. But if you can pull it off, it can be huge. But it's not a quick thing to build a category. I just would love to hear your thinking about that, and how much of your strategy revolves around that term, buyer enablement, which you're really coining and introducing into the market, versus drafting off of existing searches and things like that. Nicolas: I'm smiling because I had a long discussion with our CMO yesterday about the category creation and the role of analysts. You have to think that an analyst is not going to come up with an innovation that's in your category currently. An analyst is not going to say that, "the new way of doing inbox is collaborative inbox, and this is the new category, and players come play in my new category." Kathleen: Right. Nicolas: Their job is to observe where the market is going and say, "Oh there is something new happening there, it's real," and, "I'm going to call this category, I'm going to explain it within there." That's typically useful in crossing the chasm when you're moving to mainstream. When you move to mainstream, you need this clear explanation of what it is about, but when you build a category you're not at that stage, moving to mainstream, you're at the other stage, the early state. Our focus is to provide a solution to an existing problem. It's going to sound boring, but the fact that this problem is big enough that it's worthy enough of being labeled its own category is unintentional. We think that sales people should have better tools, and we think that inbox and calendar, we are also going to launch Chili Calendar, should be specialized for them. Because it works, we're going to solve the problem, and we're going to help them coverup their revenues better. Hopefully someday Forrester, one of our costumers is Forrester, will call that a new category, will put us in the right quadrant. It works the other way. Once we’ve done it, they'll say, "This is what's happening and we'll do it," so for now we focus on the solving the problem. It's not as hard as it seems in a sense to create a category because if the problem is real, you're going to have real movement in the market. A great example, that has happened recently, is sales engagement. Sales engagement is actually, in effect, is synonymous with sales development, it's the tool for sales development. Their job is to prospect and to engage the initial engagement. A bunch of companies can request tools early on in to us, CalTAP and Yesware, they were doing templates. Then SalesLoft and Outreach which came with a better way to do it, which was cadences, multi-touch cadences, it's the right tool for this team. They did that tool. Then they got a lot of costumers, high growth. Somebody, I'm not sure who, called it sales engagement. They thought, "Oh, that makes sense, I like it," and then the category was born, but it didn't come the other way around, it didn't come the other way around. So buyer involvement is a term we've used because we strongly believe that the focus has switched on the buyer, and that's what we do with our inbound solutions. You can't let your buyer wait two hours or two days to get that. It’s a focus, but it’s more of a philosophy. We don't expect that somebody is going to come up and call this category buyer enablement. Some day the category will be called, and as a mission, we hope that we'll be in the right quadrant when that happens. Kathleen: I think that's the right way to look at it, because everything I've seen is that even if an analyst sees it as a new category, they're not going to spend the time to coin it as such until there is more than one player in it. You can't have a category with only one company, at least in the eyes in most analyst firms. Nicolas: Yeah. How to unseat the incumbent solution provider? Kathleen: I think you're right. Last question, and then we'll kind of move into the wrap up. The thing that you're talking about doing, especially some of these new products around inbox start to get into the territory of taking on very well entrenched existing tools. If I'm an enterprise level sales person, I have an inbox already, well I mean if I am anybody these days I have an inbox. Nicolas: Yeah. Kathleen: Often, in these larger organizations, it's generally Outlook, it's Gmail, and these platform, Google, Microsoft, have their tentacles into just about every aspect of the business. So, how are you accounting for the fact that there is going to be an incumbent product in everyone's hand already, and does what you're building play with these other things, or how does that work, because that would seem very daunting? Nicolas: That is a great question and it's for sure that the feedback we're getting from a lot of people, especially in the investing communities, are people who've never switched from our product, they get so attached to our product. Kathleen: Well I don't know about that, Outlook is like SalesForce, people love to hate it. Nicolas: You must be a Mac person because it doesn't work very... But the world has changed. Kathleen: Yeah. Nicolas: People adopt new tools much faster than they ever did. You see this on the iPhone, the level reduction, but look at Slack. There was email, there were also a bunch of messaging solutions like Skype and PICCHAT, but they came up with a better one, and people switched must faster than they used to. It's up to us to come with a solution where the benefit is so obvious, it's a better way to do it, that people will switch intimidatingly. That is much less of a risk than the investing communities sees, because people do switch. If in the inbox, this company called Superhuman that launched, say took after the inbox, and they've been successful. Now there are so many new apps that users are accustomed trying new apps, changing new apps, and if it's better, they will do it. The job is to do something that is obviously better, and that's the challenge. If we do, then companies will switch, and usually will switch. Kathleen: You just said something interesting, and this is my follow up question. Users might switch. This goes back to how we started the whole conversation about every person being their own CIO, because, especially in larger enterprise, I could see a sales rep saying, "Oh, I want to use this." But at the end of the day if you want to get enterprise adoption, particularly for something like inbox, isn't the CIO, or the head of IT the key decision maker in that process. Which is a different audience than maybe you've dealt with in the past so- Nicolas: Yeah, yeah, but there are two privileged citizens in the world, software developers and sales people. The software developer or sales person say, "I want that tool, nobody gets on their way," because you don't want to mess up your software development and you don't want to mess up your sales. The reason for that is because obviously the software developers build the product, and you want to make them happy, but sales people, they bring the revenues. If they say the tool is going to help them, then it's very measurable. That's the thing that's beautiful with our inbound solutions, that Chili Piper for the work sites. When conversion rates double, it's directly twice as much pipeline from inbound, the return investment is very easy to calculate. It's not the feel good solution where you think, "Oh. That is helpful." No, you have twice as much pipeline, and that's easy. So, same thing. When we launch our inbox, you're going to see shorter sales cycles and higher conversion rates. I mean obviously it will be more subtle, I don't expect that it will double conversion rates. It will be a few points, but it's a few points on your total revenue. So if you can increase 5% your revenue, then the company making $200,000,000, that's 10 million, we'll charge less than 10 million. Kathleen: Yeah. Nicolas: We'll all make money. Kathleen: Well I think you're probably right about software developers and sales people. I am just waiting for the day when the marketer becomes the privileged citizen as well. I have a feeling I shouldn't hold my breath. Nicolas: You're right, marketers on a budget also, but for some reason, they struggle a bit more. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah, yes. This is the path we choose though. Well, all right, so... Shifting gears, there are two question that I ask all of my guests and I would love to have what you have to say about these things. One is the core of what we talk about in this podcast, is inbound marketing. Is there a particular company or individual that you really think is killing it right now with inbound marketing? Nicolas: Well, I am going to be boring and name the king, and the king is HubSpot. They've nailed inbound marketing. To a large extent, they've been so good that they've been able to hide the weaknesses of their product. It took the longest time to... But now they have a reasonably good marketing product, a reasonably poor sales product. They've written the book on it, and I think all the other companies that are doing well... A lot of companies have spun off of HubSpot and are doing well. In the case of Drift, they take the playbook, they replicate it, and it works for them. That's definitely the company I would mention. Kathleen: Okay. Well I've definitely heard those names, HubSpot and Drift, a lot on this podcast. The second question is, the biggest complaint I hear from marketers, or the biggest pain point I should say is that digital marketing is changing so quickly, mostly driven by technology. They feel like it's trying to drink from a fire hose to keep up with everything and to stay on top of latest developments. How do you personally stay on top of things? Nicolas: On top of all marketing and technology, all the tools are there? Kathleen: Right. Marketing, but also you're kind of in that sales and marketing technology space. Are there particular blogs, or podcasts, or people you follow? How do you stay up to date? Nicolas: Of course, since we're in the space, we want to know what's going on at anytime, so it's almost our job to stay open. I do that with all the tech, I was looking at whatever tools can help us. We have this concept of decision memo, so whenever we look at the particular piece... For example, I want to train my salespeople better right now. The first reflex we have in the company, at Chili Piper, is to say, "Is there a piece of software that could help us do that," and of course we’re biased, because we are software developers, but that's how we do it. That's the answer to your question, we go outbound looking for solutions. There'll be different places where we can find good advice. Podcasts are a great one, yours in particular. We listen to what other people do, say, and you learn a lot more from podcasts because people leave more practical description of what happens. Look at the vendor talk, often abstract. Then there are also online communities where people discuss the best tools, and we pay attention. Then we do, we take, random demos. Right now we are in the process of taking tons of demos from Learning Management Systems, for this particular solution. We have tech savvy people in the operation, that also makes a big difference. I see companies that don't invest in operations, or don't put the right people in operations, and they're held back by that choice. It's a super important opinion that all companies over sites get tech savvy strong people in their operations. These people are able to bring in new technology. Kathleen: Yeah. I think that makes a particularly big difference in the early days, when everyone has to be willing to roll their sleeves up, and not just strategize but do a lot of the work as well, and understanding how to use technology is very powerful for that. How to connect with Nicolas Kathleen: Well, we are coming to the top of the hour, so I wanted to make sure I ask you, if somebody wants to learn more about Chili Piper or reach out and connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do that. Nicolas: That is to come to our website, because we use our own tools. Chili Piper is a play on word, chili pepper, Piper as in pipeline, so it's C H I L I, Piper, Chili Piper, and if you request a meeting with us you'll see our technology in action. It will pop up for you so you will be able to book it. Kathleen: Great, I'll put that link in the show notes. Also, I didn't tell you I was going to do this, I also want to give just a small plug for Gipsy Time, which is another company that you are involved in founding. I just submitted my request to get in on the early access, it looks really cool, because one of my biggest problems is I have a million tabs open on my computer at any given time, plus Slack, plus inboxes, and it's super distracting, and it looks to me like you're solving that. Is that right? Nicolas: Thank you, I am really delighted to hear that. Yes, yes, it's a typical case of solving your own problem. I have ADHD, I have a focus problem, and these to-do lists, they keep accumulating tasks, and I needed to manage a way to do that. On the side, I did this other company, Gipsy Time, to help people focus. It's not about capturing the task in the long to-do list, it's about getting it done. We have the distraction blocking, where you can block, close all your tabs, and reopen them when you're finished. Make sure how much time you spend on something, make sure you spend the right amount of time. Did I tell you... When you requested that... Invited, it's very promising and it's helped me a lot in getting more done. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Well, I need it for sure, so I can't wait to get my invitation. Well, thank you so much for joining me this week, this has been so much fun, if you are listening, and you like what you heard, please head over to Apple Podcasts, and consider leaving in the podcast a five star review, that's how we get in front of new listeners. And, of course, if you know somebody else who is doing kick-ass inbound work tweet me @workmommywork, because I would love to make them my next interview. Thank you so much Nicolas, this was a ton of fun. Nicolas: Thank you, great fun, yes.

I try and sneak up on Charles Lamanna a third time, but he was ready for it, "fool me once". Recently promoted to CVP, Citizen Application Platform I wanted to check in with Charles, who was working from home, about some of the things that are going on.  We covered a lot of topics, including the post-virus workplace, RPA, API Limits, Multiplexing and Restricted Entities. Enjoy! BTW, don't forget, Mark Smith (@nz365guy) and I do PowerUpLive every Tuesday at 5PM EST, click here to be alerted, and here's a link to the replays! Full transcript follows: Charles Lamanna: Hello, it's Charles Lamanna. Steve Mordue: Charles, Steve Mordue. How's it going? Charles Lamanna: Hey Steve. I guess this is being recorded, huh? Steve Mordue: You bet. This is our third time. Have you got some time? Charles Lamanna: I do, always. I have a lot of time locked in my house right now. Steve Mordue: Yeah. It's going to be interesting for people who are listening to this in the future, we are recording this on March 27th 2020. The country is on lockdown and we're still heading upwards, so we don't know where this thing will go or end or what things will look like, but that's where we are now and the whole campus has been basically shut down except for essential people. You're all working from home. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, for a little over three weeks now actually. We did the MVP Summit from home, we did the partner advisory council from home. We even did a virtual offsite where for four days, we all joined a Teams meeting for eight hours each day. Steve Mordue: Oh my God. How are you finding it, compared to going in the office and being with the team. It was massive loss of productivity of your stuff or is it still okay? Charles Lamanna: I'd say there definitely is a slight loss of productivity. It's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I mean, never thought I'd miss my office so much. I really miss just ... you get used to it for a few years, you get everything in place. Steve Mordue: There's a bunch of businesses, I look up my apartment window to downtown Tampa at all these office buildings that are full of law firms and all sorts of people, with bunch of cubicle farms within them with people that could actually be doing their job from anywhere and could have for years and now of course are, and I'm wondering how many of these companies that were reluctant to do remote, that felt like I need to keep eyes on you, by the time we get through this, we'll have figured out how to do it remote. I wonder how many of those remote workers will end up coming back to an office. It could be a huge shift. Charles Lamanna: It definitely will. It's interesting. I was in a talk yesterday and we were talking about how when the original SARS outbreak happened, that actually is what launched eCommerce in APJ, and it's around then this jd.com and Ali basically like mobile ordering took off during that time because people were locked at home and then the rest is history, right? Those are the second largest eCommerce properties out there in the world second only to Amazon. So definitely, I would imagine the way people work and the technology people use will be fundamentally different on the other side of this. Steve Mordue: Well, I'll tell you what, it's almost prescient the way you guys decided to invest deeply in Teams over the past year before any of this was out there. And now looking back, that's looking like really brilliant move. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, there's a lot of impact. A lot of people are in trouble, but it's just, it's so exciting to be able to use something like Teams to do remote learning and tele-health and just video plus chat plus meetings integrated, Teams is really the only one doing that right now and it's just phenomenal for someone working remote or working virtually like us right now. Steve Mordue: You said we did recently go through MVP Summit, which converted into a virtual event at the last minute and it was not horrible for a virtual event first-time scrambled together. But I'm also wondering about events in the future if this may change a lot of events into virtual events even when they don't need to be anymore. But it feels like the technology needs to get one step better on the idea. It wasn't really built for virtual events at scale like that. But it seems like you guys are in a spot to really, you know what, we could figure that out and make a virtual event application actually built specifically for that purpose and potentially get rid of a lot of future ... because I tell you, there's no executive out there that's happy about approving travel expenses for his team to go to some in person event if he could sit at home or sit online, what for? Charles Lamanna: And what's really interesting is, I read Ben Thompson, he has a article called Stratechery and it's one of my favorite things to read and he talks about like is this the end of large conferences? Because when you move to all digital and you realize you get such bigger reach. I mean, you get 100,000 people, no problem. That's almost impossible to do in person and for a fraction of the cost and it can be way more tailored and you don't have to worry about double booking. That's another example where maybe things start to change fundamentally in the future. Steve Mordue: And I think conferences for years have been more about, or at least equally about, the social aspect, seeing people in person going out to the bar after the event, having fun going out to dinner, seeing some town, that sort of thing. And that part of course is probably what causes a lot of people want to go to a conerence and I have guys you and I both know that go to a conference and don't go to any sessions. Guys like myself and Mark Smith, we don't go to any sessions. We just go out there. We do that little things like we had you on and stuff like that just for fun and mainly are out there for the drinking. So we're going to miss it. Charles Lamanna: Yeah. Well I guess, the one thing too is just having a group of 20 ... that's the only thing I've learned for ... like Teams is amazing, like four people, you can have a really good conversation or a big broadcast, but if you want to have a group discussion it's hard. And that's something that works so well because you get all these people together that would never be in the room at the same time in person at these conferences and you can have some really interesting conversations. Steve Mordue: That would be the thing to figure out because in person in like MVP Summit, you guys get up in front of, I don't know, a hundred of us and we're all raising our hand, taking our turns, asking questions until we run you guys off the stage in fear. But now in this virtual, there's no real raise your hand. It's just the loudest person, the one that doesn't stop talking gets to continue until his questions gets out of his mouth and that would be an area that it seems like they could do some improvement. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, and I think [crosstalk 00:06:35] is raise your hand in Teams so you can press the button to raise your hand. I can't wait for that. Steve Mordue: That would be awesome. So you could mute everybody and they'd have to raise their hand and ... well, there you go. That's already heading the direction it would need to because that's what you'd need really for some kind of a virtual conference. Charles Lamanna: Yes. That way also I can just never answer you when you raise your hand. No, I'm just kidding. Steve Mordue: Yeah, exactly. "Oh, it's Steve raising his hand again. We'll just ignore him." Charles Lamanna: Yep. Steve Mordue: A lot of stuff that you guys announced at MVP Summit and of course as everybody knows that's mostly NDA for now so we can't talk about a lot of that stuff, but there's a couple of things that we could talk about. One theme I think I heard, which I wouldn't think is NDA, was this idea of make everything we have work better. And when you guys are building like you've been building at the pace you've been building. It's like somebody threw matches in a box of fireworks at stuff that's coming out. It takes a while for all of those wires to get connected and everything to be singing like you'd want it. And sometimes it's like, you know what, this is working darn good. Let's get this other thing launched and then we get a bunch of stuff that's working darn good but not perfect. So it definitely feels like there's a motion now to let's go back over top of all this awesome stuff we've launched and let's connect those last few wires. Let's get this stuff really working as good as it could work. Is that a fair statement? Charles Lamanna: That's exactly right. And the mantra we keep repeating internally is "end-to-end" because what you'll see is there'll be components that work well individually but they'll just be huge seams or gaps when you try to wire them up together and our whole vision has been that you want to wire these things together. That's why we talk about one Dynamics 365, one power platform. So we have this big focus on making sure scenarios that span applications or expand parts of the platform actually work well end to end and it's going in and wiring those things up and spackling over the creases and putting a new coat of paint on it. It's not fundamental and it's not necessarily something that will pop in a demo or in a keynote, but it'll just make a huge difference for our customers. And we see it already, we track our net promoter score very closely, like what are the makers, end users rate the product as they leverage it, and we just see it as we systematically improve these end-to-end experiences. That net promoter score just keeps going up and up and up and up. Steve Mordue: I know we're a one Microsoft now, which is a nice term, but in reality, these are lots of groups that are focused on their things. You've got the Office group focusing on their things, Biz Apps focusing on theirs, Azure focusing on theirs and you've got within your own group of bag things like VRP and power platform that they're wiring there you're working on and at least that's in your realm. You can make that happen, but then you get Azure AD group go do something out there that messes up something for us, or you talk about a gap, like a gap maybe between something we're doing over here and something's has happened over in the Office side and those are kinds of things that you don't have direct control. You got to try and influence and almost make a case internally to those teams that, hey, this is good or get Sacha to make a case, get somebody to make the case. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, and I think like that is a challenge. As any organization gets bigger you have, like I'd say it's not perfectly well mixed. Kind of like the ocean, right? The ocean is big enough. It's not perfectly well mixed, but I think the fact that it's actually a cultural tenant of Microsoft now to operate in the one Microsoft interest, useful listening and being willing to have the dialogue on is this truly better at the macro level? Is this a global maxima for Microsoft to go do this capability? Even if the things you directly own, it's maybe not a maxima for you and this opens the door to have that dialogue of hey, we need this feature for say the Outlook at [inaudible 00:10:38] so that our Outlook mail app can be better and we can get people off the comm at it. That's an example of a really tight partnership between Outlook and us. Charles Lamanna: And systematically, the Outlook team is completely willing and has shipped feature after feature to go make that Dynamics and Power Apps mail app richer and richer. And just the most recent example is to finally bring delegation to the mail app and that's come over the last three and a half months. So that definitely is a challenge, but it's eminently surmountable and solvable. Steve Mordue: I would imagine there's to some degree of quid pro quo, right? I mean, hey, you guys helped me out with this. I know there's nothing in it for you, but it'll help me. And then when I have an opportunity later to help you guys out. So we're all kind of open arm instead of crossed arms when [inaudible 00:11:27] approaching these other things. So how big is your list of things you owe other people? Charles Lamanna: For Power Apps, I owe a lot. But what's great is a lot of these things aren't like a zero sum in that in order for it to be good for one product or one team at Microsoft has to be bad for the other. The reality is Power Apps inside of Teams, I'll use that as an example. As Power Apps, we're very excited about that because are asking for an integrated experience inside Teams. I want it by my left rail for the app bar or I want it as a tab inside my channel. Those are real customer demands and on the other side, Teams wants to go support as many line of business applications as possible inside Teams. And we all know what's the fastest way to go create a bunch of line of business apps? It's not to go write code is to go use a low-code solution like Power Apps. So you actually can go help accelerate the platform and the line of business awareness and teams and you can go up Power Apps, reach new customers at a broader base just by doing that one feature. Charles Lamanna: So it is a very much win-win situation and adopting that mentality through one Microsoft that really the Microsoft cloud is what customers want and customers want to go trust and transact with Microsoft and not individual product teams. It is just a cultural shift that has really grown under Satya with great success. So I would say, I don't know if a product like Power Apps could have been successful 15 years ago, but it definitely, we have the environment where you can't have something like Power Apps embedded in SharePoint, embedded in Teams, the platform for Dynamics and a standalone business and having that not be dissonance or in conflict. Steve Mordue: It's interesting, I think that the companies that have embraced Teams, and it was frankly a slow go to get people to bite on because it looked a lot different than what they were used to and how they did business. But now the ones that have really gone into it are like, they're maniacal about Teams and Teams is like their new desktop. They're operating in Teams all day long now and like I can't imagine how we ever did anything before Teams. So we're still at that inflection point with Teams where I think there's a huge number of customers yet to discover what a lot of customers have about how transformative that can be. So you had to have Power Apps along for that ride. I think that ride is just getting started. Steve Mordue: It's interesting these times right now, there's an awkwardness about marketing or promoting things that make sense because of a virus. For example, I tactfully tried to write a couple of posts here recently and stood back. I was thinking, does that look opportunistic? But the one was this idea that I'd mentioned earlier, lots of people sending people home to work from home. Well, these companies that have had on-premise systems and still have them been reluctant to move to the cloud, that moved to remote workforce is going to be much more complicated than it would have been for those that had already gone full cloud, people just logging in. They got all the security they need to get. Some of these VPN solutions just were never designed or reinvested enough into to support the entire workforce. What are your thoughts about that? Do you have an opinion on that? Charles Lamanna: Yeah. I think the way we view it is number one, things have changed right now. That's just the reality. People are in different working environments, people are under a different economic pressure. There's very real frontline response necessary to go and combat COVID-19 out in the field. So things have changed. That's number one. And the second thing that we've adopted is because things have changed, we need to be flexible. And if you look across what we've done at Microsoft, even just specifically in the area that I work on, we took the April release or the 2020 wave 1 release. Originally it was going to be mandatory upgrade in April. Talking to a lot of customers, they said, "We can't get the workforce to test it. Please don't do this change, we can't take it." Charles Lamanna: So we extended the opt in window for the wave 1 release to May for an extra month and we'll keep evaluating stuff like that constantly. But we did that and that's a big change for us because we really have trumpeted that clockwork. It's always in April, it's going to come up. But we just felt like that was the right thing to do. Or we've also done a bunch of programs where for six months you can get Power Apps or Dynamics CE free if you're in healthcare, hospitals, life science or government organization because we want to go help. So there's literally dozens and dozens and dozens of state local government, hospitals that we're working with right now inside my team. And we wanted to make sure we could help them in a way where it was clear we were not trying to profiteer off of the crisis. Steve Mordue: It is that fine line though, because obviously there'll be a lot to these folks that'll take you up on those opportunities. And then when all this stuff passes, at some point you guys are going to reach out and say, "Hey, that thing we were giving you for free for so long, we like it back or have you start paying," and it is a fine line about, the super cynics could look at it very cynically I guess. The other thing that is interesting to me, I was talking about how in this time of business, revenue is going to be a challenge for businesses right now. Revenue is going to drop for most businesses that are out there. There'll be certain businesses certainly that will ... in every crisis there's always some businesses that do better than others but most are going to have a little downturn. And their revenue growth is going to be largely out of their control at the moment. And the government could shut down the people that are buying your product or who knows and it's not something you could control like you could before. Steve Mordue: So what you can control though is your costs. That's really all you can control right now. It's the cost side and both those drop to the bottom line the same way, right? Charles Lamanna: Yeah. Steve Mordue: And obviously you laying off people as people are doing that, but it seems like the time for people to really look into their organization for where money is leaking out. Because I look at historically to solve a problem like that, maybe with a business application, we're looking at Dynamics 365 or Salesforce or some big applications, costs a lot of money, a lot of time to get implemented to plug up a leaky ship that's losing some money. Where now with Power Apps, we really had the ability to go, let's identify those leaks. Let's spin up a Power App in a week or two weeks and solve this problem. Steve Mordue: We're doing one right now for a Fortune 500 company that discovered [inaudible 00:18:20] $50,000 a month. And in a big company, you can not notice that. I would notice it, but they didn't notice it until someone suddenly noticed it. We're literally going to plug that hole with a Power App at a total development cost of about 15 grand. And it's just amazing, amazing when you think about how many of those sorts of things and now's a good time for people to really focus on where's money leaking out of your business and there's some lower costs, low-code, quick tools now that could potentially plug those leaks that we didn't even have before. Charles Lamanna: Yeah. And if we look at as a company, we actually view Power Apps and Power Automate together as two products that will be envisioned doing quite well even during an economic downturn for that reason. Because you don't have to hire a very expensive developer to maybe go solve the solution or even if you go work with a services company to implement it, they can implement it much more quickly than they would if they had to go write code. And we're working with I said like a Fortune 100, like very large company just I was talking to this week and they said, well before we were talking about Power Apps all about like transformation. How do we go drive revenue forward and now for the next six months we're going to pivot and we're going to be focused on driving efficiencies in our business process and retiring other IT solutions which overlap and can be replaced with Power Apps. Charles Lamanna: So they're now going to go hunt for like this licensing thing, they pay one million bucks a year. This one, they paid two million bucks a year. Can they just spend a little bit of effort, move that to Power Apps and be able to shut down those licenses once and for all. So that's the benefit of the flexibility of the platform and just the ROI is so clean that we think that there's going to be a lot of opportunity between Power Apps and Power Automate with the new RPA capabilities. Steve Mordue: And talking about RPA in a second, but you did make a point there that it's funny how their original thought was to use it to grow revenue. And because of the situation we're in now, they're looking at another use case, which frankly was just as valid before any virus or anything else was out there. It's interesting that it took something like that to have them say, well what's the other hugely obviously we could solve. Charles Lamanna: Exactly. Steve Mordue: So RPA is an interesting one. There was a lot of talk, a lot of excitement about RPA. And I know that you're probably still somewhat limited on what you can talk about, but whatever you can say, what are you thinking about that? Charles Lamanna: The RPA, we're going to be GA in that with the April wave. So wave 1, just in a week or so. We announced the licensing details for RPA four weeks ago or so I think on March 2nd and what's exciting between the capabilities of it being a true low-code offering like typical power platform offering plus the reasonable licensing options that we have, which are generally like I'd say, the most affordable you're going to find out there for an RPA solution, we think we can actually start to democratize enterprise grade automation. Make it possible to really have business users, IT, pro developers, partners, service companies all use the same platform to go automate and drive efficiencies. So that's the exciting bit, because Power Automate and Flow have been around, Microsoft Flow before that had been around for a while but have really been, I'd say capped to a degree around personal and team and light departmental automation. Charles Lamanna: But now with the RPA functionality, we're starting to see enterprise wide invoice processing, quarterly earnings preparation, accounts, basically resolving receivable accounts, things like that. Very heavy workloads built on top of Power Automate, the same low-code tool has been there for a few years. So we're very excited about it for that reason. And in a world where you want to go trim costs, there's real opportunity to go drive efficiency using Power Automate over time. Steve Mordue: Yep. Definitely. It wouldn't be a talk with me if I didn't bust your balls about some stuff. Charles Lamanna: Let me hear it. What is it about? Steve Mordue: In one of our last calls we talked about the hot topic at the time was about these API limits and you said, this isn't something we want customers to think about. We actually thought of it more as like an asterisk on your cable bill. It shouldn't be a factor. Yet it continues to persist in people's minds. The conversation has not gone away. We've got people claiming that they're running into limits and doing stuff like that. And what are your thoughts around that now that it's actually out there and we're seeing how it's landed in people's organizations. Charles Lamanna: I do still hear a little bit of noise from customers or partners that are running into it. But it is dramatically less because it doesn't impact 99% of customers, it wouldn't impact that 99% of customers. So since it's kind of rolled out, we've heard a lot less noise but there's still does exist some noise. And the thing that we could- Steve Mordue: Would you call it air? Would you just call it a false noise? Because you guys have the analytics in the background, you know what's exactly happening. You know if once you launch this that suddenly half of our customer base is hitting this wall and you know that that's not happening. So is it still the feeling that the ones that are squawking either of that small percentage or just fear mongers? Charles Lamanna: I think there are ... I'd say I'd break down three very valid concerns that we hear. The first is, we don't have enough reporting to make it clear and easy to understand where you stand for the API limits. We have early stage reporting and power platform admin center, but we don't have enough. So there's a lot of improvements coming for that by wave two of this year. So by the end of the next wave, release wave for Dynamics, you'll be able to go in and understand exactly how your API limits are being used and if there's any risk. And that's just going to be exposing telemetry that we ourselves look at today and we think that will help with a lot of the concern that people are facing. So that's one. Charles Lamanna: The second is we have people that are using a lot of the Dynamics products. They're using customer insights, they're using Power Apps, they're using customer engagement, you're using marketing. And their concern is all these application workflows. Like imagine customer insights taking data from CE or marketing doing segmentation on CE are actually generating a lot of API calls. So as they actually keep adding more and more apps, which we like of course, and we think that's the whole special value prop of Dynamics, they are generating a huge amount of API calls. And so this is something we're going back and looking at to see how do we count the application API calls from Microsoft delivered apps and also what API inclusions should come with those other licenses. So that is something we're looking at and we don't have enforcement today so people aren't really feeling the pinch, but people are looking at it and saying, "Hey, I can see that I'm making a lot of API calls because of these other apps." That's the second one. Charles Lamanna: And third thing is we have customers who have a web app or some other service which calls into CPS in the background and that generates a lot of load and that is causing friction. Those are probably the people that we intended to have impact from these changes. And because those are people where maybe they have 10 user licenses but they generate like a billion API calls a day. So that's probably not correct. But we are seeing noise in a few places there. And that last one I think is probably, we're not going to do anything to simplify, whereas the first two are things we're going to go try to simplify and improve over time. Steve Mordue: Couple of other things before I let you go. One is, multiplexing is a concept that's been around for a very, very long time. Back when we had CALS, back when it was a physical app installed on machines and stuff like that. Now we're in this different world with all these cloud apps and services bumping into each other. But multiplexing is still this big gray box for lots of folks. And even in the Microsoft documentation, it's kind of contradictory in some places. What's the story with, we've got Salesforce Connectors, we got SAP Connectors, we've got all these other kinds of connectors that almost seem to be in direct conflict with some of this multiplexing. How do you guys get to figure that out? What does multiplexing going to look like in the future? Charles Lamanna: I would say the spirit of the law when it comes to multiplexing is, if you're doing something to reduce the number of user licenses you'd have to get for users, then you're probably doing multiplexing. And the problem is to convert that to a letter of the law is we create confusion historically to a degree as well as accidentally prevent things that we don't want to prevent based on how the language is written. And I'll give an example. So if I use a connector to say Salesforce or SAP, I still have to be licensed through Power Apps to Salesforce or SAP because you're running with your identity to Salesforce and SAP. So we feel like that's totally aligned with the spirit and those partners feel good with it. Charles Lamanna: One of the places where there was some weirdness was like say I have a Power App connecting to my Dynamics CE data, but I'm not using any of the Dynamics CE logic. Is that multiplexing? Technically four months ago that was multiplexing as the way the licensee guide was written. But that was not the intent and that was not the spirit of the law. So we've gone and changed that actually to say if you're licensed for Power Apps, you're writing a Power App to connect to Dynamics data, but not using the Dynamics app logic or app experience, then that's totally fine and not multiplexing. And that was changed I think in late January, early February because some people pointed out, like this doesn't make sense. And then we said, "You know you're right. That's not where we want to have the impact of that being." So we went and changed it. Charles Lamanna: But at its core, if you're using or doing something to circumvent a user license and you'll know you're doing it because it will feel unnatural because the system's not built to behave that way, that's multiplexing and not allowed. Everything else, the intent is to have it be allowed. Steve Mordue: So if your goal is to game the system, you're multiplexing. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, and you'll know it. If you're like, okay, I'm going to create one system account and people will use a web portal I build in Azure and the system account will then have to fake authorization talking to CDN, you're like in bad territory when you're doing that. Steve Mordue: Yeah. A lot of that comes from customers. Customers are like, "Can't we take a Power App and then have a custom entity that by workflow goes and recreates a record in a restricted entity." I'm like, "No, what are you talking about?" Anything you're doing to try and go around the fence, it's probably going to fall into that funny territory. But- Charles Lamanna: Yeah. And a challenge we always have is, how do we convert these ideas into a digestible licensing guide? And I think it's almost like running a law, like legislating, but there are no judges to actually go interpret the law. Steve Mordue: And we also know that when it's written down in a licensing guide, it almost might as well not be said. If we can't get it technically enforced at various levels, we can point back to the licensing guide. We as partners should be telling customers, "Yep, not allowed to do that." But without technical enforcement, these licensing guides are just something you could beat them over the head with when they misbehave. And speaking of restricted entities, when we last talked, you had mentioned, yep, there may be some more coming. That was a very long time ago and we haven't seen them. Is the thinking still along the lines of that is how we're going to protect some of the first party IP or we maybe have some different thoughts of different ways to protect it in this new world of a common data service, open source, data model, et cetera. Charles Lamanna: We actually do ... we are working on something, I can't quite tip my hand yet, that will better allow you to share data and share schema from the common data model, the common data service in the apps without running into the concept of the restricted entities. So there is something in the works that we're working towards and I would say at a high level, restricted entities as a concept are largely antithetical to our common data service, common data model and vision. And they were just like the least bad option to go make sure that we appropriately can license Dynamics apps. So we are working feverously on many proposals to get out of that restricted entity business, but still have a model which more appropriately captures and protects the value of the Dynamics apps without introducing restricted entities. So there, I'd say stay tuned. There definitely the best minds are working on it and I've seen a very digestible and good proposal that is running up the chain right now and that'll get us in a much better place later this year. Steve Mordue: I had that assumption since you talked about adding some and so much time had gone by and my thinking was, because I never liked the idea of the restricted entities for reasons you just said. It felt like a quick down and dirty temporary solution and I had the assumption that since we hadn't heard any more that you guys were actually coming up with a better idea. So very glad to hear that. I'm sure everybody would be glad to hear that. So I know you got to get back to work. You're a busy guy. Anything else you want to convey to folks out there right now? Charles Lamanna: The biggest go do I'd have for folks right now at this point in time, it would be go play with Power Automate, learn the new RPA functionality. It's a huge addition to dynamic CE. It's a great thing for support and customer service workloads. It's a great thing for finance workloads. Like we have one customer that went from 22 finance ops people down to three just using Power Automate and RPA. Plus if you use Power Apps, it's a great way to go extend it. So I say go give Power Automate and RPA a try. That is the number one thing I think to pay attention to and that's the number one thing we're going to be talking about at the virtual launch event. That would be my call to action. That'd be the one thing I'd say. And the second thing would be, I even wore short thinking Steve would maybe video call me today, but it's too bad you can't see it. Steve Mordue: That's very nice. Charles Lamanna: But maybe I take a picture and send it to you about a merry pigmas. So that's the current state here is I work from home, but I say- Steve Mordue: We're all letting the hair grow and- Charles Lamanna: Yeah, I had a call with our PR and AR folks, our analyst relations folks because I had an interview on Wednesday and they said, "You're going to shave, right? You're going to shave before you get on the camera with him." So yeah. But anyway, exciting times. As always, pleasure. Steve Mordue: Listen, you never have to shave to talk to me. Charles Lamanna: Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate that. Steve Mordue: All right Charles, thanks for the time. Charles Lamanna: Yeah, always good to chat with you, Steve. Have a good weekend. Stay safe.

Written, produced, and narrated by Remedy Robinson Twitter: @slowdragremedy Email: slowdragwithremedy@gmail.com Podcast music by https://www.fesliyanstudios.com Rate this Podcast: https://ratethispodcast.com/slowdrag ----------------------   Elvis Costello Wiki Resource, “A Voice in the Dark”: http://www.elviscostello.info/wiki/index.php/A_Voice_In_The_Dark   “A Voice in the Dark”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-CJTZMKh7E   Companion Blog: https://slowdragwithremedy.home.blog/2020/03/27/episode-37-a-voice-in-the-dark/   References: Episode 16 of “Slow Drag with Remedy,” “I Might Recite a Small Prayer.” It’s a slow drag with “Bedlam,” another gem from “National Ransom”: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/16-i-might-recite-a-small-prayer/id1478037117?i=1000456392629 Episode 17 Supplement of “Slow Drag with Remedy,” “The Quickening Art” https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/17-the-quickening-art/id1478037117?i=1000456956290 A slow drag with Live solo performance of “A Voice in the Dark,” with “Pennies from Heaven” Prelude: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szu-y3n9ubg Elvis Costello in Isolation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfXyl0fBcTY&feature=youtu.be      So, until next time, Adieu, my little ballyhoo   "A Voice in The Dark" Lyrics: You can read right through a book of matches But that won't make you smart You can laugh in the face of watches But time will only break your heart Kings reign beneath umbrellas Hide pennies down in cellars And money pours down and yet Not everyone gets soaking wet When bores and bullies conspire To stamp out your spark Listen for… A Voice In The Dark Not a moment too soon as we blue the moon And a wolf began to howl in tune I announced for all mankind / A boon Stand aside you big baboon Now I'm the a prize invention You're the image of yourself Forget your cares your disapproving stares I'm not here to try to jump your borders Just ask your nieces and daughters I'm flat as sole, I'm happy as a clam But you don't know the kind of man I am Little fish swimming in a jealous shoal Now my net is overflowing And suddenly I seem to be all seeing and all knowing I got something right there You might want to hear I have no fear Lend a hand / Lend an ear If your rent-money is in arrears We'll be striking up a symphony bandstand Long of hair and loose of tooth There'll be pirouettes and startling handstands And who but acrobats know how to tell the truth When all is said and then redundant They gallivant in peg-leg pants I‘ll be your servant You'll be my pal and I'll be faithful you know I shall There's no fool like an old fool Who blames it all upon his youth When times are tough and you find you're down Without a star to wish upon Listen for… A Voice In The Dark I was striking through a box of matches Hoping that one would spark I heard somebody calling to me A voice in the dark A voice both wild and gentle Daring and confidential I thought there was music playing But it was all and only talk When liars and bullies conspire to stamp out spark Fill up that empty space in your heart Listen up as the herald says, "Hark" Believe in the voice in the dark…

Today’s episode features one of the largest spirits companies you might not know much about. You’ve heard of brands like Ezra Brooks, Rebel Yell, and Blood Oath, but there is a lot to discover about Luxco. We sit down with Philip Lux, Global Brand Ambassador at Lux Row Distillers and son of CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of the Lux’s along with their acquisitions of bourbon brands. Then we also get the inside scoop on what’s happening at Lux Row Distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, KY. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan to grow and evolve. Don’t sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility is incredible. Show Partners: The University of Louisville has an online Distilled Spirits Business Certificate that focuses on the business side of the spirits industry. Learn more at uofl.me/bourbonpursuit. Find out what it’s like to taste whiskey straight from the barrel with Barrell Craft Spirits. Learn more at BarrellBourbon.com. Receive $25 off your first order at RackHouse Whiskey Club with code "Pursuit". Visit RackhouseWhiskeyClub.com. Show Notes: Black Market Liquor Sales: https://www.forbes.com/sites/fredminnick/2020/03/19/wholesalers-warn-of-black-market-liquor-if-liquor-stores-close-amidst-coronavirus/#3b5445042e88 Supporting Spirits United: https://p2a.co/JRoHtT8 Bourbon Pursuit USBG Fundraiser: bourbonpursuit.com/usbg Bourbon Crypto: https://www.coindesk.com/wave-financial-to-tokenize-20m-worth-of-bourbon-for-new-whiskey-fund Pat Heist on TedX: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSLWEnz-1mc This week’s Above the Char with Fred Minnick talks about supporting craft distilleries. What was your introduction to bourbon? How did you get into the business? What stands out about bourbon when you are traveling? Talk about the difference between Luxco and Lux Row. Did your dad ever tell you about how he had the foresight to acquire all these brands? Tell us the story of David Nicholson. Talk about Blood Oath. Was Rebel Yell acquired the same time as David Nicholson? Tell us about your bourbon portfolio. When did you break ground on the facility? Why did you decide to build in Bardstown and not St. Louis? What is the difference between regular David Nicholson and the reserve? Tell us about your still and capacity. Any worries about your bourbon being ready in 4 years? Are you trying to replicate the existing flavor profiles? What is your storage capacity? What is something that people might not know about your brands? When is the Lux Bourbon coming? Any plans to use this facility to support Luxco? What issues have you had starting a distillery? 0:00 If you have a bachelor's degree and live anywhere in the United States, there's now a way for you to take your bourbon education to the next level. The distilled spirits business certificate from the University of Louisville is a six course online program that will prepare you for the business side of the spirits industry offered by the AACSB accredited college of business. This certificate is taught by business professors and industry leaders from Brown Forman beam Suntory jack daniels and more. join this one of a kind experience and prepare for your next adventure. get enrolled into this online program at U of l.me. Slash bourbon pursuit. 0:38 Let's kind of talk about you know your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad your last names luck, so obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah. 1:00 Welcome back, everybody. It's Episode 246 of bourbon pursuit. I'm Kenny, one of the hosts. And here's your Cova 19 updates because a lot has changed since last week. Texas has temporarily adjusted its laws to be more lenient on the drinks industry and are now allowing alcohol as a part of to go orders. This is pretty big news because we know that anything in Texas that is regulated by alcohol is very, very hard to change. And they are also in listening distributor trucks that are designated for alcohol only delivery to support grocers and delivery needs during this time for roses distillery will temporarily suspend their operations of us distillery located in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky, and that began on March 20 of 2020. And based on the current situation for roses expects to commence operations once again on April 6 of 2020. A new statement by the wine and spirits wholesalers of America or known as the W swa their CEO and President Michelle Cosmo warns that in a crisis 2:00 consequences are major concerns for industries and private citizens. And they implore all governors to keep Wine and Spirits retailers open as to not encourage bad actors to pop up black market liquor operations. Other industry partners including the distilled spirits Council of the United States, otherwise known as discus has made a similar statement. And Fred MiniK recently published an article on Forbes, referring to the actions taken by the state of Pennsylvania, where they closed the doors of all alcohol stores in the state that the same thing could happen to them, as it did during Prohibition. And you can read more with his article to the link in our show notes. Right now, many other distilleries are making hand sanitizer. Back on March 20 of 2020, the FDA issued a new guidance for the temporary manufacturing of hand sanitizer by companies and entities that are not currently regulated by the FDA as a drug manufacturer. The TTB or the Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau has found that it isn't necessary and desirable to waive provisions of internal 3:00 Revenue law with regard to distilled spirits, and therefore is providing certain exemptions and operations to distilled spirits permittees who wish to produce ethanol based hand sanitizers to address the demand during this emergency. any existing DSP can immediately commence production of hand sanitizer or ethanol for use in hand sanitizer without having to obtain authorization first. These measures are generally authorized under authorities that apply in disaster situations, and are right now approved through June 30 of 2020. There are now over 50 distilleries across the US that have switched to making hand sanitizer including big ones like wilderness trail, smooth Ambler town branch, rabbit hole, old Forester, and there's many more craft distilleries across the nation like co vault, Illinois, Coursera in Tennessee, and Caledonia spirits in Texas. I would love to be able to give everyone a shout out on here but you can contact your local distillery to see if they had any available Republic purchase in a day. 4:00 There's a lot of giving going on by bigger corporations. And here's some of the highlights. Beam Satori and southern Glaser's are donating $1 million to support the impacted bar and restaurant employees. Beam centaurea is also working with other distributors across various states, including major brands, badger liquor, Fenway associates, Allied beverage Corp, Empire distributors, best brands, horizon beverage group and more to provide donations to local organizations that will further help to support in the trade of their respective communities. biagio has also pledged $1 million to the US VG or the United States bartenders guild and their emergency assistance fun for Cova 19. biagio is also doing another million euros to support bartenders in the United Kingdom with a million million pounds. Brown Forman is donating $1 million to us big the restaurant workers Community Foundation and one level is separating between those three different organizations. gallows, New Amsterdam vodka and barstool sports 5:00 created a new t shirt highlighting support your local bartender program, where 100% of the net proceeds will go to us bartenders guild foundation. And additionally New Amsterdam will donate $5 for every t shirt purchased. Jamison donates another 500,000 to the US big mixers distillery in Philadelphia have made a $10,000 donation to the US BG patrol is donating $1 million to three different organizations. You have the children of restaurant employees otherwise known as core, another round another rally and the James Beard Foundation. Sasa rack and fireball Have you started a GoFundMe called the world's biggest tip jar by starting it off with $100,000 donation, and it will match all contributions up to $400,000 donations with everything going to tax exempt organizations. Tito's is donating $1 million between four organizations focused on those in the industry. We have the core, US big Southern smoke and the world central kitchen. They're all 6:00 pledging another additional $1 million as further needs are seen. Zamora is donating 400,000 euros to charities such as Caritas, the Red Cross and the food bank foundation. Yelp, who you all know the app is providing $25 million in relief in the form of waived advertising fees and free advertising, products services and more that during this period. 6:24 In addition, we're trying to do our part as well. bourbon pursuit we have our own fundraiser going to help support the US BG or the United States bartenders Guild. So at this time, you can go and you can win bottles of pursuit series and our latest peril picks from will it go to bourbon pursuit.com slash USB G to get entered into our raffle? We appreciate all the support. 6:47 Discuss that we talked about a little bit early before the distilled spirits Council of the United States is now asking the government to include distillers in the Cova 19 Relief Fund. distilleries across the nation have close tasting rooms suspended to 7:00 And cancel large events to limit the exposure of Cova 19. As a result, the Steelers have been forced to make difficult decisions, including in some cases shutting down production in laying off staff. As a result, many distilleries may not be able to survive during this crisis. distillers right now employ 1.6 million people across the country and generate 180 billion dollars in economic activity for the United States. You can help take action by supporting spirits united with your name and vote with the link in our show notes. This story poured out a little bit over last week, and I'm sure many people know about it, but we need to report on anyway because we all know about jack rose. It's that iconic whiskey bar in DC that's owned and operated by Bill Thomas. But you've heard back on episode 67 and 127. They're putting up all 2700 bottles for sale. In response to the escalating health and economic crisis. The public can now search through their treasure trove by stopping into the bar 8:00 browsing their whiskey Bible menu which is also available online and talking to Bill Thomas himself, you can order anything you want. That could mean 20 or 30 year old pours in our bag or MacAllan hard to find bullet family estates or jack roses own private barrels that are made in collaboration with Blanton's and other distilleries. The drums will be packaged in little sealed bottles that could be kept on your home bar in pours of the rare stuff or anything that's $100 plus an ounce will be 50% off while all other pours are 20% off. Thomas says he plans to offer the spirits at a lower price than what consumers would find on the secondary market. If you're in the area, they also have to go cocktails available from all three of their company bars, jack rose, Imperial and DRAM and grain and classics like old fashions a Manhattan's two visible creations that they all have starting at $10 each. The story is spread and when it broke, people were lined up for around five blocks. Their website crashed and they had to use Facebook and Instagram to let everyone know 9:00 Know how to contact to them. So please check out the jack rose social pages for the latest and up to date info on how to get your hands on anything. All right, let's change subjects for a minute. Let's get out of the coronavirus talk. Wave financial has finalized an agreement with Danville Kentucky based wilderness trail distilleries to tokenize between 10 and 20,000 barrels of whiskey worth up to around $20 million that will be made publicly available through a specialized digital asset fund. Now if that didn't make sense, this is turning bourbon inventory into cryptocurrency. So known as wave whiskey 2020 Digital fund, investors are able to purchase asset backed tokens linked to an inventory of whiskey barrel this year, that will represent as many as 4 million bottles of bourbon by tokenizing. It wave says that investors can gain exposure to Bourbons value appreciation and can also share some of the proceeds from when a whiskey is sold to wholesale to merchants and three years after the whiskey is first 10:00 Still, and the tokens are then issued to investors, users will be able to trade their tokens at whatever price they wish. And wave is also in discussions with some security token exchanges to develop an official secondary market infrastructure to facilitate better trading in the whiskey back tokens. A wave spokesperson added that the token was available for accredited investors from all around the world. And what they first closed at the end of March and a second at the end of June, a final close expected to take into place in September. You can read more about that with the link in our show notes. And didn't more wilderness trail news. The yeast and fermentation doctor from wilderness trail that we all know is Pat heist, who we had back on episode 121. That blew everyone's mind, had his first TED Talk published. It talks about the effect of climate on production and the quality of bourbon. And this was done at TEDx at the University of Nevada. Give it a listen on YouTube with the link in our show notes. All right for today. 11:00 Today's episode, we feature one of the largest spirits companies you probably don't know much about. You've heard of brands like Ezra Brookes, Rebel Yell and blood oath. But there is a lot to discover about Lux CO, we sit down with Philip Lux, the global brand ambassador of Lux ro distillers and he's also the son of the CEO Don Lux, as he guides us through the family history of Lexus, along with the acquisitions of their bourbon brands and labels. Then we also get the inside scoop on what's happening at Lux ro distillers. After sourcing whiskey for many years, it became apparent they needed to build a distillery and they did it right in Bardstown, Kentucky. We discuss the future of the brands and how they plan on growing and evolving. Also, don't sleep on this location during your bourbon trail visit because the facility looks incredible. Let's get on with the show. Here's Joe from barrel bourbon. And then you've got Fred minich with above the char 11:56 it's Joe from barrel bourbon. Tasting whiskey straight from the barrel was truly alive. 12:00 changing moment for me. In 2013 I launched barrel craft spirits so everyone could have the experience of tasting whiskey at CAST strength. Next time ask you bartender for barrel bourbon. 12:11 I'm Fred medic, and this is above the char. I have some very, very staggering news. This just in from ACS a or better known as the American craft spirits Association. According to a survey of a CSA 150 craft of 150 craft distillers 67% will be forced to close within three months. 32% of those respondents said it, they won't even last a month 87% of all craft distillery tasting rooms have closed and 60% of the distilleries making craft spirits has already laid off employees or furloughed staff. 13:00 This is absolutely staggering to thousand small distillers across the country. And that survey tells us, we may very well lose two thirds of them in a matter of months. Those are people who have put it all in the line to do something that they love and, you know, want to really push the envelope. And this just breaks my heart. This just absolutely breaks my heart. The distilling community right now is trying to get federal support, you know, so they're basically looking for the same kind of federal funds that's going to be given to the airline industry in the hospitality industry. And here we are. 13:49 amidst this coronavirus scare, and we're about we're about to see a lot of a lot of great people lose their dreams. And that's just fair. 14:00 Very scary. 14:02 I think about what we do you know, Kenny Ryan and I, you know, this is, yeah, it's it's my job. But let's face it, I have a dream job. I talk and write about whiskey for a living like all the time. And I have some time said some things that are not so nice about craft whiskies. It was never anything personal. It's just about their whiskey. But never in a million years. What I wish this upon anybody in the industry, I can't even imagine, to begin to think of like, what it what it must be like right now to be a craft distiller and to know that if things don't change, you're going to have to shut down for good. So let's do what we can. Let's, let's do what we can Let's buy their products. And you may push back here and say, Hey, well, Fred, we can't go to the liquor store. Our governor is shut us down. We have to stay inside. You know, that's very well true. But get this. There's a 15:00 A lot of delivery services out there right now. That will bring a good old DRAM to your doorstep. You can go to silver box comm craft shack is another one you can go to drizzly calm, and these are all delivery services that will buy from a local retailer and deliver to you. Another one that you can join is called spirits network comm go to spirits network comm I actually have a lot of shows on there, but you can, you can buy booze, and then watch booze TV. So there's a lot of options out there that you can go to and buy craft whiskey or any kind of craft spirit. But listen, we have to band together we have to do what we can to help these small distillers because we can't lose them. We just can't. It's not. 15:51 It's very scary. It's absolutely very scary. And so let's do what we can let's band together. Hello 16:00 Let's save a distillery or two. 16:03 And that's this week's above the char. Hey, make sure you are checking out my YouTube I am dropping content every single day, in hopes of helping you get through the boredom. You can go to YouTube and just look for my channel. Just search my name Fred MiniK. Until next week, cheers 16:26 Welcome back to another episode of the bourbon pursuit the official podcast of bourbon. Kinney and Ryan back in Bardstown on the road again often, but this is fun, we love going on the road. And today it's funny because, you know, we drive around bars and we do a lot of these interviews. However, this is one place that I had never driven up and we drive past it quite frequently especially if you're a frequent are over at Keystone liquors. Yeah, you drive by where the cinemas you have the movies in. It's right across the street. It is and but this is it's one place where I drove up and I was I was amazed like 17:00 How beautiful the grounds are here at Lux row distillers and being able to in the first thing that we saw a was like some house that you said your buddy grew up in that owned the land here. And then we saw their their resident peacocks. Oh yeah, yeah, this. I've been up this driveway many times. You know, it's a running joke that I say that I'm from Bardstown. But I am from bars town and grew up hanging out here with my buddy john and his family. So 17:29 it's a beautiful property got a bunch of old farmhouses gold house and some peacocks and they were like Kenny walked up and they kind of spread their feathers out I think they're excited to see Kenny And so yeah, maybe maybe see us Who knows? Yeah, but I've kind of been you know, just being in town seen the construction and everything but never really seen it till now. And man it's an it's an impressive property with all the distillery and everything. So it's all about the property. But you know, this is also we're getting a chance to talk to 18:00 About a company that's kind of like a unknown Titan in the industry, you know, it's they've had a lot of established brands that have been out there. For the longest time, it had been a sourcing product and now that they are sealing the light, they're like, Hey, we got to grow, we got to expand, we got to we got to start pumping out our stuff too. And so we know when we start talking about these brands, a lot of them are gonna start ringing a lot of names like Rebel Yell, like Ezra Brooks, like these are all the labels that these are all the names that you're probably very well familiar with and probably didn't know much about the the distillery and the people that are behind it. So guilty. I don't know much. But now I do know, because we just did the tour got the family history, and it's like a really cool story. So I'm excited to share that with our audience. Absolutely. And that's a good way to kind of segue into our guest today. So today we have Philip Lux. Philip is the global brand ambassador for Luxor distillery. So Philip, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Kenny. Ryan, thanks for having me on. Absolutely. So 19:00 Before we kind of get into this and start talking about the whiskey in the tour and the grounds and all that sort of stuff again, let's kind of talk about you know, your history your your upbringing, because because you're you're young strapping lad, your last name is luck. So obviously you have something to do around here. Yeah. 19:16 So, you know, the and you kind of talked about like, your family's been in this business? What 40 years now something like a almost 60 years, almost 60 years. Wow. So talk about your first run in with bourbon. My first run with bourbon honestly, was was pretty recent, over the past two to three years when we decided to build this and that so your mom and dad and like 19:41 and now I mean, it's really was you know, as personally my my first run with bourbon was was recent, but as a company, we've been in the bourbon industry for over 40 years doing some private label stuff with my grandfather back when you know, he was still still around. And David Sherman, who originally started the business with my grandfather, Paul 20:00 Whenever you know it's doing that private label bourbon just for four different grocery stores or, or convenience stores, stuff like that around the country. And then we we bought our first bourbon. And I believe 93 with Ezra Brooks from from Glenmore distillers, who's now owned by Sam's rack and has just kind of grown from there. And, you know, that was a little over 20 years ago now and we've grown. We've had award winning brands and grown our brands over the past 20 years and into into big, big names that allowed us to now break off from sourcing and start our own distillery and have everything distilled in house verse, you know, sourcing our bourbon from somebody else. Okay, so let's get back to the original question. What was your first my first run with bourbon was was probably three years ago. In you know, Colorado when I was when I was living there and decided I wanted to get away from kind of the, the vaca vaca scene so I started to drink some different stuff and my mom actually came 21:00 To me and in said that'd be a really good opportunity for, you know, to maybe have an idea of getting into the industry as we're getting ready to build this so I jumped kind of head over heels into the bourbon industry and 21:13 kind of ran with it from there went to moonshine University in Louisville and where I really got introduced to bourbon and whiskey and that kind of helped me in golf myself in the industry and in golf myself and what bourbon really is, especially here in Kentucky in Louisville, where it's you know, American spirit and in most popular spirits, so, huh, so she kind of was like the catalyst you didn't really you were like, that's your thing. I'm gonna do my own thing. Yeah, I'd never even really wanted to be in the industry. My I was always not necessarily pressured. My dad always said Do whatever you want to do. Yeah, he was never pressuring me at all. It was always his friends are my friends asking when when are you going to get in the industry? When are you going to do this? do that so because I'm sure your friends are like, hey, yeah, 21:58 I mean, I would take boxes of boosts. 22:00 to college with me, whether it be vaca Yeah, you'd be Ron knock that probably we just got in the house, we used to own Admiral Nelson. So that was a pretty cool product for us. And that was a fun product in college. And everybody enjoyed that. But, you know, on the bourbon side, I really didn't know much about it until I started taking classes and really engulfing myself in it with Stephen thief, like I said, as well, with moonshine you and you know, my mom is said, you know, take a chance this is something that's different, it's something that's new, it's gonna be something that you can help grow and you can be a part of, I was working in a ski shop in Colorado two years out of school, and you know, love in life, but it's hard to work in a ski shop for the rest of your life. Right? Well, I guess I work in a ski town so I need to find something a little different. And I you know, I've I've used my dad in different people in the company, and then the industry is kind of stepping, you know, stuffing box to help me work into it and learn more about it and I feel 23:00 That I've, I'm learning, you know, every day, whether it be with our products or the distillation process or the supplier versus distributor side. And, you know, with my job, it really allows me to learn, you know, frequently and, and continue learning and traveling and seeing different how bourbon and whiskey is viewed in California versus in Kentucky versus in New York. You know, I like to call you know, the bourbon trail like the Napa Valley of the Midwest now because you guys probably see it firsthand as well where everybody's flocking here now for that burden. Even the peacocks even though 23:39 they're they're always here and they're, you know, they love it here. So kind of talk about what you do see the difference in in bourbon, whether it's the community or culture as you're doing these travels, you know, just across the US like what is what's something that kind of stands out to you? You know, I think something that really stands out is the, the recognition of the bigger 24:01 You know, you go to California where, and I went up to Seattle for Seattle cocktail week and people had never heard of Lexapro but they had heard of, you know, they heard of heaven, hell and Maker's Mark and Jim Beam. And, you know, being, for me my passion and what I really strive to grow not only our brands, but our brands are part of a bigger name now of Lux. Lux row. So I think you know, to answer your question, Kenny, the The major difference that I see is how quickly a brand like Lux row catches on in Kentucky, because, you know, we're a year and seven months out from, you know, putting juice in our first barrel. And people recognize those brands like you know, they, they have, you know, throughout time and they recognize Lexapro now, as in you go to San Francisco whiskey Fest, those are all whiskey, you know, enthusiasts, so they're gonna, you know, they're they've probably been following those brands, but they're not super familiar with it. Maybe they've seen that Lux ro logo somewhere and now they're gonna be you know, 25:00 Gonna be there and they can, you know, learn more about it on a first hand basis or up in New York, I was up there and personally introduce David Nicholson reserve into the New York in the Boston Market in front of all the distributors so just different brands that aren't necessarily recognized throughout the country or are and don't have a lot of backing to them that need help you know, growing and with the distillery it's allowed us to help grow those brands in a different way where we can one bring customers here and you know, they can see that product we have people from all over the country if not the globe coming here. When they come to see heaven Hillary Jim Beam or Maker's Mark or limestone branch down in Lebanon, they drive right past us now. So we're in a very unique spot here that 25:50 it allows us to help grow. Yeah, I mean, go ahead, right. Oh, no, good. All right. Well, I'll keep going. I mean, cuz i was i was talking about like his Yeah, I mean, we talked about 26:00 Kind of beginning to show that you know, the rebel gal David Nicholson blood oath like Ezra books like these are these are pretty iconic names in in whiskey like they've been around for a long time but people didn't really know a lot of the background. And so Lux ro is also is it underneath the umbrella or an extension of Lux co as well? Can you kind of talk about the differences what you have there? Yeah, absolutely. So Lux CO is I like to call it our parent brand. But Lux Lux row is actually technically a supplier of Lux Co. You know, we own it as a family. My dad, you know, is the chairman CEO still of Lux row, but we act as a supplier for Lux, COEs Bourbons. But we're also you know, owned and operated family operated out of St. Louis with my father. myself my brother my mom. My brother's not in the industry. he's a he's an aerospace engineer, but he's the winner. Yes, James. He's a one a little bit of a different path than myself But no, to each its own. Yeah. 27:00 I found you know, a niche here but yeah, I mean Lux CO is is a worldwide supplier of spirits. We own a multitude of about 100 different brands everclear probably being the biggest my grandpa Paul purchase that, you know, way back in the day that was his first popular guy in college. And to this day I'm proud to admit I've actually never drink and everclear Yeah, it really is brutal. Yeah, never drink and it was like hooch or something. 27:28 So it's, it's, you know, everclear is you know, the biggest one but then we've got you know, provoq arrow cordials we own three different two kilos, whereas tequila, which is our mixto which you can find in you know, like a Texas Roadhouse Well, it's you well Margarita is usually whereas tequila, we have LA or tequila, which is our ultra premium as well as exotic tequila. All based out of Mexico. But it all you know, we're the supplier for that. So we we've been partners with the Gonzales family over there for 28:00 3040 years my grandfather worked with Rodolfo Gonzales his father so so very family oriented. And then over on locks row even you obviously can't get to locks row if you don't have locks. 28:11 And so we've over the past 20 years we've purchased all of our bourbon brands as your Brooks been the first and 93 from Glenmore distillers. And then we had Rebel Yell in 99. We purchased from Stetson Weller, David Nicholson is one of my favorite brands to talk about because it started originally started in St. Louis, Missouri, and we can go into that story. You got a little bit of a soft spot for St. Louis don't I do I do St. Louis born and raised my hometown. Got to give a shout out to our blue Stanley Cup champions. But you know, all of our brands have a very unique backstory to them very unique roots. That's why here at Lux row we are I guess motto is real roots real family real products. We have the roots not only with the products, but the real roots here in Bardstown with the Ballard 29:00 farm. They've lived there and and Ryan you know this but 29:05 big john Ballard lived there for 40 years raised his kids there, his grandkids there. I mean, this was their family farm. So we have the real roots with the products as well as with the farm. We've got the real family with myself, my dad, my mom being the creative director. So she worked her butt off, you know, getting this place up the top notch, you know, within two years, and then we've got the real products and the drinkability obviously speaks for themselves when you when you let them touch your lips, but each one has different wards. As what to say cuz the ezard Brooks barrel proof kind of went off gangbusters this year. Yeah, we're going crazy. It was crazy. Yeah. So we'll right when we introduced it wherever we reintroduced it, Fred. 29:45 Fred MiniK, who's never heard it never had that. But he called it he called it his, 29:52 his 2018 everyday sipping whiskey of the year, which absolutely blew it off the rails, all the allocations from across the country. We're going to 30:00 Wire. And so people you know we're in love with it and then somehow some way it one in San Francisco 2019 straight bourbon of the year 2018 straight straight whiskey of the year, which was absolutely huge for us once again. But then David Nicholson reserve back to back 2000 back to back double Gold's in San Francisco and in 2017 2018 as well as straight bourbon of the year 2017 Rebel Yell 10 year old single barrel was top 20 whiskies of the world it was number 12 there were only three American whiskeys on that. So we were really really fortunate to you know to have that one it's also very delicious product as well as won some some gold medals. So each one you know that real roots, real family real products, you know really comes into play with Lux row as well as Lux CO and St. Louis. But you know, very family oriented but Lux Lux row is what we that's what we strive here. So he says your dad ever told you about how you had the foresight to like start buying up these brands like before the you know, the big boom 31:00 Like, has he ever talked about that? Like, why did he get why did bourbon interesting, I guess from in the early 90s? When no one cared? Yeah, it's a great question and I'll need to, to pick his brain about that. Because, you know, I should definitely know that I know that. He's always looking to acquire and sell different brands, whether it be bourbon or, or rum or vodka, or tequila, stuff like that. But, 31:24 you know, he's, he sees an opportunity, and he'll jump on it. I mean, David Nicholson, he literally bought that product from the Van Winkle family. He was on the phone with Julian Van Winkle, which is pretty cool story, especially. I mean, if you guys want I mean, I can go into you know how David Nicholson 1843 came about, do it. Let's hear it. But so my favorite This is my favorite story to tell about our Bourbons because it hits home for me, it goes back to 1843. I've looked it up on Google, and actually found it. Actually, it actually found David Nicholson's grocery store that I'm about to talk about in St. Louis. Okay. He was a great 32:00 grocery store owner back in 1843 in St. Louis, Missouri. So he made that four year old weeded bourbon in his basement of his grocery store 50 years later as well, it's like you can do that 50 years later in 1893, some guy named Pappy Van Winkle. Never heard of them might know something about we did bourbon. I'm not sure. What's that? Yeah, exactly. He purchased that product continued that Nashville and then in 2000, my father, Don purchased that product from from Julian Van Winkle. So which means we've now brought that full circle from 1843. Back to St. Louis, where it originally started, which is a really cool story to tell. It's 100% true, and it it puts that family you know, atmosphere that family feel back in that product that has been there throughout time but might not have been recognized. And then we introduce David Nicholson reserve that won a bunch of awards. It's not it's a seven year ride bourbon at 100 proof so they they interact with each other very well. 33:00 They're different taste profiles, one's very creamy, one's still a little bit sweeter because of that we did bourbon. 33:06 So that you know, that's David Nicholson is a really cool story with with roots dating back to 1843, but also roots a back to the Van Winkle family. So where was blood oath made? Not a grocery store, right? How not to talk about that, and how it got its name and how it made it wait made its way to your portfolio. So blood oath was a product that were our head distillers very, very fond of john rappy. We wanted something that he could put his name to, and that it could be his in that he could continue to create, you know, delicious blends, you know, year after year. So, you know, john goes to different places and different distilleries and finds very unique barrels that he can blend together. And what we wanted was three extra age Bourbons blended together with a unique bourbon that's finished in something different. So packed, one was 34:00 three extra age Bourbons blended together not finishing anything unique barrel after that and pack to three extra age Bourbons, one of which was finished in a pork barrel from Meyers winery in Cincinnati. 34:12 also failed and operated with my cousin Paul Lux who owns Meyers winery. Pack three was finishing a Cabernet 70 on barrel for an extra six months. JOHN actually went out to Napa Valley and pick those barrels from the the smiley or the head wine guy you know at Swanson vineyards Napa Valley pack for was finished in Rebel Yell 10 year old toasted oak single barrel. So that was a 10 year old, a 12 year old and a nine year old and that nine year old was finished for an extra six months. So you got very dark chocolate notes. So these are all things that you know, john, personally, you know, puts that bourbon in those barrels and tastes them month over month to make sure that they're at that flavor profile that he wants. So when I tasted that blood oath, or that that nine year coming out of 35:00 Those old 10 year old toasted oak barrels It was very dark chocolate tasted not like chocolate milk, but kind of cocoa almost. It had a very, you know, chocolatey taste to it and then pack five you know, everybody's looking for that extra aged, super high proof, very unique Bourbons these days, so pack five, it's a, 35:21 an eight year old 12 year old and a 13 year old and that the eight year old rize actually finished for an extra six months and Caribbean rum cast. So that's what we're drinking right now. Nice. That Caribbean rum casks you get 35:33 you get very sweet and sweet. Yeah, Ryan signs empty, sweet sugary notes on the front end. You get like dark fruit banana, you get that okayness coming through from that extra age that you know 13 and 12 year old coming through there. So blood oath is something that 35:51 you know, the but the blood of the tests is that you know, nobody knows where he finds his barrels or his bourbon but you know, he puts together 36:00 product that is very unique and is for the the bourbon enthusiast. And if you'd like I can read you know what the actual blood oath label says on there. But it'll, it'll, it gives the whole story but if you think about it, you prick your finger with a buddy, and you make a blood oath, you know, you don't tell, you know, tell those things. Only you guys know where it's from, and tell you get on the podcast and 36:23 reveal everything. It's all we do. We sit here and poke and prod until you run out mash bills and ages and where your source your barrels, we save our blood. 36:32 So that's cool. I mean, that's, I think that's a side of, of, at least that particular brand that most people don't know about. You know, for I mean, I can remember when I think blood was packed, one came out, and there was just kind of this, like, what is this? Where do they come from? It's in a box like, what, what is this stuff? And so now we kind of have a little bit more of the information and really kind of what goes into it now. Now I know that each pact is uniquely different as well. It's not so 37:00 supposed to be this 37:02 similar creation over and over and over again? Yeah, the main similarity and that's only three barrels yet another thing to three three extra age Bourbons is the main submit similarity, excuse me, and, you know, each year, different box different label different flavor profile completely. And it's something that that john can really get behind and put, you know, a lot of his passion to it as well, other than, you know, all the other Bourbons, but he loves the blood oath, and it's growing in popularity, you know, year over year, we've continually made more of it. It's still allocated. 37:36 But I believe we made 37:39 I think it's 5003 in cases for this one, so about 15,000 bottles, maybe a little bit more might be vitamin 17,000 bottles, but it's allocated bottles for three barrels. You know how you're doing that? 37:51 Well, it's not three barrels total. Oh, yeah. Okay. 37:55 I thought it would be different. I literally thought it was like three barrels. No, no, so like, math as well. 38:00 All right, we'll take about we'll take about 40. 38:03 About 40 barrels. So like with the pack for we had 40 to 10 year old barrels that we sent back to the cooperage, they took them apart, scrape the number three char off, put them back together, suck a flaming hot rod in the middle for about an hour, put a very deep toast on them, put it back together and send it back to us. And then we aged that nine year old or finished that nine year old for an extra six months in those barrels. So it wasn't all three Bourbons finishing those barrels, it was only that one. So then john will blend them together in whatever way he finds, you know, best so that he gets those flavor profiles that he's looking for. So it's more than just it's three, three types of barrels. But it's not three barrels total. Gotcha. And so it was was Rebel Yell acquired at the same time as David Nicholson. About a year before but right around the same time. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's, that already has a pretty historic past, you know, being something that was at Stillwell or stuff like that, you know, it's it's good to kind of get the background of 39:00 What these are and I'm assuming this is this is the the line that you have right now in your Bourbons. Yeah Miss Rebel Yell at her Brooke split oath and David Nicholson, the Rebel Yell we just reintroduce, or we just new label on it, which you know pops much better than the old one, you can really read the lettering. So we've reintroduced that to the, to the market. 39:22 You know, we're coming out with new bottles and new new products eventually, as you know, as we get going. 39:32 There'll be there'll be something along the lines of you know, a regular or just like a distillery product from Lux row. 39:40 So definitely look look forward to seeing that at some point. 39:45 But yeah, this is this is our line. These four products are two mash bills. I ride Nashville and our we did Nashville, we can get to all of our products from those. Hmm. And so I guess let's talk a little bit about the distillery here because 40:00 Cuz we mentioned when we were walking and talking, breaking ground around 2016, which was, you know, for us, I remember doing the podcast and we're like, oh, what's this place that's getting ready to start and we didn't really, really think anything of it now, a couple years later, we're here finally doing a podcast. Yeah. And then you realize they make you know, they have Rebel Yell and all those brands, all the big brands, yeah, I'd never heard of before. And so kind of talk about the the timeline of breaking ground. When you first started distilling, getting everything online, first barrel, everything like that. Yes. So see, we broke ground, January 2016. 40:39 The ballers lived in that house pretty much two weeks until we broke ground on the property. So it was still their family farm pretty much up until then, I mean, we obviously haven't get out. 40:50 So yeah, we broke ground, January 2016. We're on about a two year you know, we wanted it to be you know, up and running in two years. So 41:00 January 2018, I think January 10. We filled our first barrel, January 5, we turned the steel on. 41:06 And then April 11, we opened up to the public. So that was our grand opening. And that was a huge day not only for our family, but for our company. It was the largest investment that we've ever made for our company. But it was really big in nursery, more morale, but just for the whole team, I mean, my dad shut down our whole company in St. Louis and bust about 350 of his employees out here so that they could stand out on this front lawn while we had bagpipers walking, you know, taking my mom and my dad and David Bratcher, the president of our company down to the flagpole to, you know, to raise that Lux row flag for the first day. So you got people that, you know, have worked have driven a forklift in a warehouse in St. Louis for 30 years, with a smile on their face coming to work every day for my dad and my grandfather. That got to come out here and see firsthand where they're, you know where that Rebel Yell or that Ezra Brooks is that they're pushing every single 42:00 All day unloading trucks they got to see firsthand where that's made with with their co workers. And it really spoke volumes you know who our family is and what we're all about and just to have everybody out here is just a really cool experience. You know, April 11 2018 we'll remember that day is you know, the day that you know we we cut the ribbon on this place and open it up to the world and that really is what you know what what we did you know, not only here in Bardstown but i mean i'm going to London next week to you know, work in the market with our with Ezra Brooks and rebel yo with our, our international reps over there. So 42:37 to see a grow over the past, whatever it is year and a little over a year and a half now from where it was to where it is now and then just envisioning where it can go, you know, over the next two 510 years and past that is really special and just to see, you know, everybody in the company, really get behind 43:00 Everybody in you know, in our bourbon 43:03 section of Lux co get behind it and all the events that we're doing, we're now going to be at at every whiskey fest around the country. So Chicago, San Francisco, New York. 43:16 I'm missing a couple nights, but there's no whiskey fest whiskey in the winter in St. Louis. We'll have a booth there. So you know, the everybody's really getting behind it, especially here in Bardstown. I mean, you got to tell better mommies, they've got our products and they love it and they'll they'll sell it or 43:34 you gotta love Manny's Gotta love nannies you can't go wrong with the country cooking there. Yeah, we had one actually. We had a group that came here. I was like a VIP tour or something. And they went to mommies for breakfast. And they were just like, That was crazy. The pancakes are huge. And I couldn't even like we're bloated. Yeah. secondaries. Yeah. 43:54 So talk about why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint 44:00 You know in St. Louis, 44:04 there are more craft distilleries popping up around the country now, more than ever before. So how do you find the best stories and the best flavors? Well, rack house whiskey club is a whiskey of the Month Club, and they're on a mission to uncover the best flavors and stories that craft distilleries across the US have to offer rack houses box shipped out every two months to 39 states across the US and rack houses April box, they're featuring a distillery that mixes Seattle craft, Texas heritage and Scottish know how rack house whiskey club is shipping out to whiskies from two bar spirits located near downtown Seattle, including their straight bourbon, go to rack house whiskey club comm to check it out and try some for yourself. Use code pursuit for $25 off your first box. 44:52 Why did you all decided to do the distiller here and not kind of do a footprint you know in St. Louis, you know you got a bunch of breweries here 45:00 They're, you know, a nice big city like, you know, in your bottling they're still currently why not do it there and instead of kind of putting your foots down here or not your foot putting making your stamp here in Bardstown? Yeah, definitely, I mean, I think I think that you know Bardstown is the heart of bourbon country. And we found that I think we wanted to be around everybody else. I think it definitely helps us being here. Versus you know, being in St. Louis. We have our other our plant in St. Louis, where everything else is made. But you know, this is bourbon country and we wanted to be by by the other distilleries, and we wanted to be right in the heart of it. Like I said earlier, you know, the, the Napa Valley of the, you know, of the Midwest is that bourbon trail right now, and yes, people are going through St. Louis to you, but they're gonna go there and see beer when they're coming through Kentucky. They're coming for bourbon and we needed somewhere that could be you know, 100% about our Bourbons that we could, you know, really get behind and, and we 46:00 been, you know, we've been sourcing for 20 years so we've been driving our barrels from Kentucky back to St. Louis for 20 years and it's been working for us why change anything now? Why not you know break ground in the heart of bourbon country where we have that limestone filtered water. I mean, we just still we cook we ferment with Bardstown city water, this limestone filter we don't do anything with you know, with it when we're putting in the cooks or anything like that. Well, you know, we'll reverse osmosis, purify it when we're, you know, we're proofing down everything, but to be here in Bardstown in the heart of it is what it's all about, and that's where the most traffic is. That's where people want to want to come to see that bourbon, and also, in Kentucky in it's the same weather as Missouri. You just get it about a day later, but you get all four seasons. You get all four seasons, very hot summers, very cold winters. So that aging process is really unique here in Kentucky, 46:54 and is probably the best agent process for bourbon. 46:58 So I mean 47:00 We're right in the home in Lebanon, Kentucky is not far away so independence Dave it's easy to get barrels from them. Everything very centrally located here in Kentucky. selfishly I like being in Kentucky because it's close enough to St. Louis Right. You can drive back for a few hours and one hour drive. Yeah, it's not bad at all. But I think this is where the majority of people know what they're talking about here in Kentucky for bourbon. And you know, when I got started I in the industry I it was a little challenging for me because I was kind of just cold calling on different bars and restaurants and stuff like that and the saturation of bourbon in in Kentucky. Louisville is just insane. I mean, you go into any bar and there's more than 100 Bourbons on there. So 47:48 to be able to get our name behind something that can compete directly with those big brands. With Lux ro but also you know, Rebel Yell is growing as her Brooks is growing. David Nicholson is growing. David Nicholson reserved 48:00 The biggest you know our top skew coming out of the distillery here you know it's it definitely speaks to the location that we're in. I guess I forgot to question about this so what's there between this the regular David Nicholson and the reserve the 1843 is a four year old we did at 100 proof so for us we did bourbon in the reserves a seven year old ride burn out 100 proof There we go. Yeah, so once we add ones ride, Alright, so now our listeners know exactly what you're looking at when you're perusing your store shelves. 48:29 So I guess, you know, as we kind of keep talking about the the distillery here and everything like that, what's the I mean, it's a massive still so kind of talk about the relationship you have with Vendome and and the size of it and kind of like how much product you're pumping out to. Definitely so yeah, we got are still 43 feet tall. 36 inches in diameter handmade custom copper still from Vendome in Louisville. So family operated with the Sherman family. 48:54 They are the best when it comes to still making this obviously, other stills hillbillies. 49:00 Try it instills. I would think Vendome is up there with, you know, the best in the industry. 49:07 But yeah, so Ours is a 43 foot column still, which then feeds the low wine into our doubler, which is also made by Vendome. I'm not 100% sure the capacity of the doubler. But once it gets into that double, there's a slide on that one. 49:23 pure, pure alcohol in there, no more grains or anything. And we're going to pump out about a million million gallons a year, which is about 70 barrels a day with the capacity to do about what we do about 20,000 barrels a year and we have the capacity to do about 50,000 barrels a year. If we add a couple fermenters 49:42 down the road when when we need that to production to jump up. Is that based off like what you're kind of seeing sales in the marketplace, either current brands or more is that kind of like we see this is the growth of what this company is going to be. Yeah, a little four to five years. Obviously, there's projections and I don't see those projects. 50:00 firsthand, but I think you know, we deplete about 20,000 barrels a year. So maybe a little bit less. But as as those projections and stuff as we get rid of some other barrels that we have at other distilleries will, you know, by the time those are finished, we'll be ready to dump our first four year old barrel here and we can just kind of jump right into it same seamlessly and that's what was kind of unique about us building building here as well is that you know, we've been in the bourbon industry owning our own Bourbons for over 20 years and and we've been doing it you know, we've we've had it it working very well and very good relationships and to have those those products. We're doing the same thing that those other distilleries had been doing for us, except now everything's in house and we can just, we were able to have have barrels aging, 50:56 continue producing those products and having them in the market. Why 51:00 We're building our distillery. So whereas you know, a smaller craft distillery that's just popping up out of the ground, they're either going to source their product off the start, or they have to wait, you know, a year or two years for their first product to come off the still or to be dumped out of the barrel for us, we could just jump right into it. 51:18 And they're not too much of a leeway. And in you know, getting that still turned on pumping out juice and just jumping right back into that, that process of putting bourbon in, you know, on the shelf. Yeah, I guess that that also kind of leads into another question is when you start thinking about when the day does come when your barrels are ready, until you said like 20 2022 2022 is kind of like the date that you all are aiming at. Is there ever any any worry because, you know, if you're, if you're sourcing and you're buying and you've been buying at a consistent product, and you kind of know exactly like what it's going to be at that age, you have a little high confidence and then now you're kind of like Okay, now we're working with our equipment. 52:00 Is there any sort of thoughts or worries to say like, God, I really hope it's gonna be ready in four years. Personally, I don't have any worry. But people in the industry I'm sure will have worry. 52:12 For I don't have any worry for a couple reasons. One, I've tasted our year juice that came out of our first make barrels. And it's absolutely delicious at 125 proof very calmly, very dark for a year, which gave me a lot of confidence into what we're going to be taking out of those barrels, you know, three years down the road, but also when when we're doing the exact same thing that those other distilleries you know, had been doing for us for 20 years, our head distiller was, was you know, we were deciding what that Nashville was going to be stuff like that. But when we pull our barrels, you know, especially for our Rebel Yell, and our Ezra Brooks, as well as some for the David Nicholson, but mostly the rebel Jonas for Brooks, we're going to pull in a cross sectional method from the Rick house, so we're not going to rotate any of our barrels so when we pull those barrels, we're going to pulled 200 barrels, maybe 250 barrels at a time and blow 53:00 those all together to get to that consistent, you know, flavor or proof that we've had for the past 20 years that's been, you know, award winning or that we've been putting on the shelves year in and year out. So, and that's all tested by our head distiller and some people back in St. Louis to making sure those flavors are there. But me personally, I don't really have anywhere because we have the best in business, you know, doing what, what they do here, but I'm sure that's going to be a thought of some people once we get our first product, you know, that we actually distilled here, you know, into the market. Y'all trying to kind of replicate the existing profiles you have now with the existing brands is that kind of what your match bills are geared towards is kind of replicating the agenda now. It's gonna be the same Nashville, we're using the same corn we're using the same wheat or rye, we're using the same yeast, everything like that. We're just doing it in house now. So gotcha. You know, it's, it's hard to I would think that would be the smart way to do it. 53:56 Yeah, I mean, it's it's hard to it's hard to kind of replicated 54:00 offer, you know, a year and seven month old barrel shirt. As we get closer and closer, I'm sure that replication process will become more in depth and taking a couple different barrels and mixing them together and proofing them down to see if we can get to that exact proof 54:17 for that exact flavor profile, which I know we will. 54:22 But yeah, I mean, there's definitely, I'm sure there's definitely some worry or thought into if it's going to be exactly the same. Mm hmm. I mean, I think that's always a always a concern when you're doing this and figuring out Okay, do we do we keep the sourcing do we start blending a little bit, that sort of thing as you start going down that path? Even more? 54:44 And so we kind of went on the tour kind of so we have what 1212 fermenters here 12 54:51 I'm already testing my knowledge here. 12 fermenters a massive still doubler what else am I missing that we kind of solve on our little tour here? 55:00 We talk about think tanks. So you got some proofing tanks, we'll we'll put, we'll put juice in the proofing tank said 140. And we'll prove it down to 120 4.9. For it to be bourbon can't go in 125 or higher. And so we'll talk about the storage capacity we have here too, because we were able to go inside there you have this beautiful wall of barrels, anybody that missed you can always check out Instagram scroll way, way, way back and you can probably find it but there was a an idea that they had of being able to make an impact when you come into a particular warehouse 55:34 to kind of talk about what that is. Yeah, so my dad Don and David Brasher, the president of the company had a really good good really great idea honestly to take out first couple Rick's and and Rick house and just make a big wall of barrels that people could see and, and allow people to really, you know, see what a wreck house looks like see the magnitude of a wreck house. 55:59 You 56:00 See how many barrels are in a wreck house from floor to ceiling instead of just being in a confined claustrophobic area and and leave you know a lasting impression on on people that come to the distillery 56:13 I don't don't quote me on this but I believe it's probably the number one picture people take at our distillery once they get in there the wow factor is definitely ducks. Yeah number two speaker blend them together and make one 56:26 you know the wow factors you know definitely there we have we have in that Rick house will all of them were are built by bucyk construction here in Bardstown also family owned operated. But you know, they were kind of skeptical about it at first until they did some engineering on it and they found a way that it would work. And so we were the first ones to do it. We're one of you know that Rick house is one of a kind in the industry. So they've bucyk is brought other people you know, that are maybe interested in it to kind of look at that, but all of our rec houses aren't like that. So that one holds our first one Rick house, one holds 57:00 19,200 barrels, and then all of our other Rick houses hold about 20,000 barrels. So if my math is right, about an 800 barrel sacrifice about 800 barrel sacrifice and we definitely think that that sacrifice you know paid off an aesthetic purposes. 57:18 I'm hoping that those barrels stay on that wall for a very long time, at least like 10 years. Me personally, but I'm not the one calling the shots when it comes to what barrels are being pulled. But, you know, we've got some special barrels on that wall that people can see and hear the story about. 57:36 And you know, those brick houses, that's where the magic really happens. I mean, in my mind the barrels most influential aspect of the bourbon process, see 70% of the flavor or 70% of the flavor 100% of the color. So it'll be interesting to see how a little bit of that extra airflow kind of affects the barrels in a positive or negative way. We hope all positive Yeah. 58:00 Either absolutely, hundred percent. But, you know, it's it's just we tried to be differentiate ourselves from other distilleries in a few different ways through visuals, whether it be the video at the start of the tour, the artwork throughout the tour, or, you know, the Rick house, you know, very, very visually appealing that people you know, it sticks with them when they when they leave here. Yeah, it's one of the first warehouses we've been around to recently that doesn't have like the black fungus several or Yeah, so we don't have that yet. We'll get better. I think it's starting to grow on a couple of the small trees out there. Yeah. 58:40 It's like every tree bars on the black like, like you brazenly like what's wrong with your trees? It's like, I'm worried. It's just the 58:47 tree. It's just the bourbon. It's just the bourbon talking. Yeah. So you know, last thing I want to kind of talk about because I think the brands are a very sort of focus for what you do in all the ambassadors 59:00 centering. I think that's a word that you that you do around the globe, sort of what is what has been like the one thing that people latch on to when you talk to them about their brand or about your brands? Like is there one thing in particular each one of these that they're kind of like, oh, wow, like, I didn't know that, or that's a pretty cool little factoid. I think there's there's a couple things. I think the roots behind each one of our brands is very unique. And people don't realize the roots that you know, each brand has come from, I mean, you mentioned if you mentioned stitz, a Weller to anyone that you know, drinks bourbon, they know that it was a very prestigious distillery back in the day that you know, has amazing juice that we've continued that you know, that process or you mentioned, the Van Winkle family. 59:44 Everybody knows who you are, most people that drink bourbon, know who, you know, the van winkles are so I think that the, the, the roots of each one of our Bourbons is very unique. The flavor profile is very unique, but what I really enjoy about this job 1:00:00 is telling our family story and how we've grown throughout the past 60 years, starting as just a small you know, private label distribution company in modeler all the way up to one of the top suppliers and you know, in the country, if not the world of spirits and to be able to grow that family name into bourbon is very special for for not only myself but for our family as a whole. I mean, I've my mom, and it was absolutely a job to raise me over, you know, 25 years but she put her heart and soul into this distillery for two year process and, you know, 1:00:45 the tasting room the visitor experience that was all her so to see, to be able to tell our family's story and put it behind not only the brands but the whole distillery in general is very special and I think people will actually latch on to it. 1:01:00 at, you know, whiskey fests and stuff like that. Because 1:01:06 no, okay, like you're saying, some people do know the brands, some people don't know the brands and, and if you can give them something to latch on to that reminds them of that brand. I think it's it helps them, you know, one they'll drink it, they'll maybe ask for that over a different product and at the store after, you know, they go from San Francisco whiskey fest drinking all day and night and the next morning, they're like, oh, what was you know, what was that? What was that product from Lux, Rhoda. Still it was that thing I can't remember. And then maybe, maybe they remember it. Or maybe I was just in the liquor store that they go to. And they walk in there. And I was just, I personally had just been talking to the owner and talk to them and explained all of our brands. So they walk in there and they say, Oh, do you have any brands from Lexapro, distillers? Oh yeah, we have Rebel Yell we have as Rob Brooks. We have these great 1:02:00 Are any of those ringing a bell and they can kind of relate to, y

    It’s four in the morning and someone is angrily pounding on your front door, trying to get in. What do you do? That’s what Army veteran Greggory Farr had to decide. Don West and Shawn Vincent discuss Farr’s decision and the legal consequences.   Transcript: Don West: You know that surprisingly, there are plenty of those out there. Once they're on your radar and you start looking around, you see these tragic consequences coming out of people that make what may turn out to be a fatal mistake pounding on somebody's door, typically in the middle of the night, often under the influence of alcohol or sometimes, I suppose, combined with some other intoxicants of some sort. And then we had as a point that the tragic case in the Detroit, Michigan area, that Ted Wafer case, a young disoriented woman who had been in a fairly minor car accident, but clearly under the influence of alcohol and maybe some other things.   Shawn Vincent: Marijuana.   Don West: Yeah, and was pounding on the door, I suppose looking for help. I don't know if she was mistaken as to where she was or if she just was trying to raise anybody that could come help her, but she certainly gave all of the outward appearances to Mr. Wafer as an intruder, someone trying to break in the house.   Shawn Vincent: Well, and it's terrifying. So you have one person who's intoxicated and disoriented and confused and someone else who's just been awoken from a deep sleep in their home in the middle of the night. And it's confusing for everybody. Don West: Yeah. You've got people a world apart trying to meet somewhere in the middle to exercise good judgment and make some decisions that keep everybody safe and often that just doesn't get there.   Shawn Vincent: You got me thinking about my tone. When I talk about these things and write about these things -- and I think sometimes I can be harsh on the defender while we have our conversations. And I think it's in the same spirit that I'm harsh with my kids sometimes. It comes from love. Because I've seen so many of these cases were very good people, well-intentioned people are put, not because it's their fault -- these people came to their home drunk in the middle of the night and imposed on the security of their home, their family -- and they make a couple of mistakes, and you and I have tried to defend these people, and have successfully sometimes in court, but they make a couple of mistakes and it makes your job and our job so much harder, where if they had spent a little more time thinking about it in advance, what they're going to do in certain circumstances, they could have avoided it altogether or had been just so clearly justified that they never have to call us in the first place.   Don West: I suppose that we're talking now how you can prepare for what may be a highly unlikely event, but at the same time if it ever happens to you and you've taken a few minutes to think it through in advance or to get some special training on how to deal with these scenarios, whether it's the parking lot scenario and somebody's walking up to you and you have to figure out whether it's an attacker or whether it's a homeless person looking for a handout or whether it's a crazy person, a potential rapist, who knows, but you've got those moments when you have to protect yourself, but at the same time hope that you can make some good decisions and that innocent lives aren't lost.   Shawn Vincent: That's fair.   Don West: And most importantly of course, is that you don't wind up committing a crime during that process, so that even though you firmly believe that you are doing what is absolutely necessary and lawful, reasonable people can sometimes disagree and if depending on where you are, what the jurisdiction is, who the police officer is that's investigating. Perhaps we should talk about prosecutorial discretion at some point. Maybe this is a good case that we'll get to talk about that. And you just wind up on the other side of this traumatic event in what we've called before the second fight, the next fight. The next fight. And that's when you're dealing with the criminal justice system.   Shawn Vincent: I hate to see good people get prosecuted and sometimes go to jail for making what are entirely understandable mistakes, but mistakes that could have been avoided.   Don West: And by that, I think the keyword is avoidance, because any time it doesn't happen, you've avoided it and your risk zero.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the legal risk.   Don West: That's what Andrew Branca talks about. No matter how legally or actions are.   Shawn Vincent: How justified you might be.   Don West: Yeah, the risk is not zero that something won't happen.   Shawn Vincent: Or that you've misperceived one critical thing. And so let's go to Hawaii. There's this place called, I'm not going to say it right. EWA beach in Hawaii, I'm going to call it Ewa beach and there's a guy named Gregory Farr. He's 35-year-old army veteran. He lives there with his girlfriend and a daughter in this townhouse community, rows of townhouses. They all look-   Don West: Kind of cookie cutter?   Shawn Vincent: Remarkably similar to one another. So it's an April 15th a couple of years ago, tax day, and a sailor in the Navy, John Hasselbrink, Chief Petty Officer, 41 years old, was out drinking. He was reasonably responsible. He Ubered.   Don West: If that's the case where, well one can assume he's probably a career military if he's still in.   Shawn Vincent: At 41, yeah.   Don West: Sure. And was living that life. And did I read it correctly that he was going to ship out the next day somewhere and that's why he was, kind of lighting it up that night?   Shawn Vincent: I'm pretty sure. And so he lives in this town row, a couple of doors down. He usually keeps his door unlocked because you've got friends who come and go will crash on his sofa, and he's fine with that. So the Uber drops him off. The Uber's not pinpoint accuracy as it turns out, so he's a couple of doors down and he doesn't go to his front door, which he assumes is unlocked. He goes to the front door of Gregory Farr, who's asleep upstairs. Now Gregory, three days ago prior to this event, had hurt himself. He's in a cast, broke his ankle I think.   Don West: So he's got some limited mobility.   Shawn Vincent: He's hobbled. Right. And so now it's four in the morning, the terrible hour, four in the morning where all this stuff happens, and there's frantic pounding on the front door. This guy thinks he's at his house, he's trying to get in.   Don West: So he probably goes to the door, turns the knob. What happens is not what he expects. He gets resistance, the door is locked.   Shawn Vincent: Right. I think he assumes one of his buddies came in and crashed on the couch, they locked him out.   Don West: So he pounds on the door, wakes him up and they let him in and he goes to bed and.   Shawn Vincent: And they'd laugh about it and work off their hang overs the next late morning I imagine, but that's not what happens. Our guy Farr, he gets a rifle. The reports didn't say what kind of rifle he has, but it's a long gun and he goes downstairs and he's sort of covering the stairway that leads to the front door. There's a window there. You can see that there's a figure out there. It's someone he doesn't recognize. He calls out, wants to know who he is.   Don West: So at this point he's making noise from the inside trying to get this guy's attention, asking him questions, but no sense of recognition or no response on the outside other than the continued. . .   Shawn Vincent: The continuation of it. He's said that he had his girlfriend call 9-1-1. I assume she did. I haven't found any reports that prove that she did that. I haven't heard the 9-1-1 phone call in any of the news reports that I read on this, and that's what we have to go by. But let's assume that that happened ,or at least that he intended for her to call. So this goes on. So then we read at one point that he tells investigators, he thought his daughter was asleep up in bed, but I guess she's on the mattress downstairs. So she's sort of in between him now at the top of the stairs with his hobbled ankle in a cast and a rifle and this guy who's plowing away on his front door. And he fires.   Don West: So as I understand his thinking, from what the reports seem to indicate, is that once he realizes that his daughter is essentially between him and the door, but in close proximity to the door, he's now concerned for her individual safety, not just the general safety of the family, but now he realizes that she is at high risk from this fella if he bursts in.   Shawn Vincent: Right when he comes in, he's going to get to her first, and I'm the father and I'm injured I can't get to her quickly. That's a terrifying place to be.   Don West: So that basically was the deciding factor from what you can tell-   Shawn Vincent: So this guy's not responding. He's had it. And so it seems like he fired one shot this rifle through the door.   Don West: And as far as we know, the door is still locked. There's been no progress made getting in by this intoxicated sailor.   Shawn Vincent: That's right.   Don West: But nonetheless, inside the homeowners are now armed, yet to some degree disabled, not as able to be physical, not as able to make some decisions in terms of his relative capacity physically with the guy outside and whether anybody would allow someone in just to fight them under these circumstances is certainly overwhelmed by the idea of a minor child at risk.   Shawn Vincent: Right. We talk about immanence all the time, and I think he seemed content to call out and wait -- until he had a suspicion that his daughter might be at risk, and that wasn't a chance he was willing to take, so he fires and kills the guy.   Don West: Why are so many of these cases that we talk about one shot fatalities. I've been a criminal defense lawyer for a long, long time and I've handled lots of aggravated battery cases, attempted murder cases where there's been one, two, three, five shots and nobody dies. And yet these innocent homeowner cases almost always one shot and the person on the other side dies. They're typically pretty decent people in their own right. They just made a tragic mistake of going to the wrong door and compounded of course by their level of intoxication.   Shawn Vincent: Michael Drejka just happened to hit him in the heart. Could have hit him an inch over.   Don West: The handicap parking place shooting.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, George Zimmerman. One shot.   Don West: Yep.   Shawn Vincent: This guy's an Army veteran. He understood how to handle a rifle and been trained to shoot. Gerald Strebendt had one shot; he was a veteran Marine sniper.   Don West: Well, and that's, I imagine if you're going to assume that training played some part in it, even if it's through a door, that the notion is you shoot for the large part of the body, the center mass, and that's where a lot of vital organs are.   Shawn Vincent: And if you hit it, then you hit it.   Don West: And if you don't, you may very well not kill somebody, but if you do or you hit a place that's going to bleed out, then it just takes a few seconds.   Shawn Vincent: So for whatever reason, often it is one shot as the case in this case. So he's eventually arrested on manslaughter charges. I'll add that the gun he had, I don't know all the details behind this, but he didn't have it legally, so he was arrested on weapons charges as well. And you and I have talked about this before in cases where those are mutually exclusive things. You can legally justifiably defend yourself with an illegal weapon and potentially be justified in the homicide but still face weapons charges for having an illegal weapon.   Don West: That's right. That's happened surprisingly often actually where the claim of self-defense may very well be supported by the evidence and no charges are filed, but at the same time a convicted felon in possession would be a charge that some people would have to deal with or some other illegal weapon possession of some sort.   Shawn Vincent: And we've seen people run for the scene because they knew they weren't allowed to have the gun and made their defense case much harder. And then some of the weird stuff happens, and we'll talk about, you called it lawyer nerd stuff earlier. We went and talked about some lawyer nerd stuff, but it's relevant because each one of these cases gets prosecuted or not differently, and it affects the defender's lives in myriad ways, but in this case, they arrest him, the charge him with a manslaughter, then they screw up speedy trial. They took too long, I guess, the prosecutor, to go through certain steps, and a judge dismisses it. But you made a distinction here. He dismissed it without prejudice, which meant that months later they pulled together this case and they came back and they charged him with manslaughter again.   Don West: The initial criminal charge was dismissed on a speedy trial violation, because apparently the judge specifically allowed that the dismissal was without prejudice. In legal parlance, that typically means that a legal, a judicial action is taken typically a dismissal of some sort, but the key word is without prejudice. Without prejudice means that it's not fatal to the case and oftentimes that lawyers have, especially in a civil context, you can fix it. You can amend the pleading and file it again. So a dismissal without prejudice usually gives leave to take another run at it. Whereas frankly, that's a pretty novel concept to me in criminal law. I'm not really familiar how many states would allow a dismissal, especially on speedy trial grounds without prejudice, but clearly that's what happened here.   Had the judge dismissed it with prejudice, that typically means that's the end of it. Nobody can go back at another bite at the apple. A speedy trial is a notion that's a criminal procedure issue that originally is sort of designed at least, constitutionally, to keep people from languishing in jail waiting for their day in court.   Shawn Vincent: You, the State, the oppressive government, you can't just arrest me on charges and then keep me in jail pending trial for 10 years, keeping me in prison without a trial.   Don West: Without a determination of guilt. Sure. There's a provision in the United States Constitution for speedy trial in the day to day work of a criminal defense lawyer that would be known as constitutional speedy trial and that looks at a lot of factors including prejudice to the defendant for the delay and bringing the person to trial. Maybe they've lost witnesses or other evidence that they could have preserved had they then brought to trial more quickly.   Don West: That can even sometimes exist in a far different context than what we're talking about here. But here we're talking about a state procedural rule, just like there's an overall constitutional speedy trial concept, that essentially focuses on due process and the fairness of the way that you were treated and the prejudice that you've encountered as a result of not being moved along in the system. And under state court, there might be very specific rules and it could be as hard and fast as a specific number of days. And if you're not brought to trial with any specific number of days, then the court has the authority to dismiss it. I remember in the old days, old days meaning 20, 30 years ago, that Florida had a very specific speedy trial rule for both misdemeanors and felonies, but for felonies it was 180 days. And if you were arrested and you were not brought to trial within 180 days, the court had the obligation to dismiss the case on application.   So you often would look at the calendar and figure out how many days actually where the 180th day fell and if you weren't brought to trial and jury selection started on that day, then you could file a motion with the court to dismiss it and it didn't matter if it was a bad check or a first degree murder. The judge had no discretion in that. And sometimes it gets kind of silly because the prosecutor would sometimes just count wrong and misunderstand when the 180th day was. That's changed now, it's still pretty rigid though because it's 175 days and then there's a window that the defendant must request the trial and then they've got a couple of weeks to bring the person to trial, but then it would be dismissed.   Don West: Unlike other states, for example, well North Carolina is one where there really isn't any state speedy trial, so people can wait weeks or months to go to trial and not have any specific provision that guides that. Other States, when I talked to lawyers around the country, always seem to tell me a different story how their speedy trials worked and that's not to be confused -- I won't go on too much longer -- not to be confused with the statute of limitations. So the statute of limitations is basically how long the prosecuting authority can wait between the incident and the prosecution. That's typically measured in years. In most jurisdictions, a felony would be maybe four or five years, statute of limitations. And in some cases, cases that you and I have worked on, there is no statute of limitations on in most places for murder for example.   Shawn Vincent: Which means there could be some defender who was involved in the self-defense incident and the police decide not the charge for some reason, but he's never explicitly exonerated, so he lives his life month after month, potentially year after year, with this specter that a prosecution could happen at some point.   Don West: Yeah, a lot of those cases just kind of hang out there because there is no statute of limitations, the prosecutor doesn't have to finally decide and frankly there's pretty good reason in some cases, not the ones we're talking about, but we know all those cold cases, right? Technology changes. There are people that committed murder 30 years ago that are now being successfully prosecuted because of DNA and these genetic databases and things that. . .   Shawn Vincent: The Golden Gate Killer.   Don West: Yeah, there you go. They're able to identify people there was simply not enough reliable evidence on before.   Shawn Vincent: I bring that up, because one of the, you talked about the next fight, right? One of the points of our discretion and our podcast is to help the members understand just what comes or what can come after a self defense shooting. And what we'd like to think is that the cops show up, they look around and say, "Oh yeah, he was trying to break into your house. Congratulations on being a great citizen. You're fine." And life goes on. But that's hardly ever the case. They're going to come, they're going to treat it as a homicide. Sometimes they clear these pretty quickly, other times they don't. And then the defender's left in this limbo for days, weeks, months, years sometimes. Usually an arrest comes within days or weeks, but not always. And then there's, depending on where you live, different speedy trial clock, your lawyer will probably opt to voluntarily to spend that to take the time they want to get the experts they need to. . .   Don West: Yeah. In most circumstances, if there's a rigid speedy trial rule, it can be waived or told because of something that the defense wants to do to get expert review of evidence or that sort of more investigation.   Shawn Vincent: That's why you have a year or two before you get the trial.   Don West: Yeah. You know your point is . . . I've personally been involved in a case that's now a year and a half old and there's been no prosecution to note, no clear evidence that there ever will be, but there's been no absolute dismissal with prejudice. You know we talked about with prejudice if the case is dismissed with prejudice. . .   Shawn Vincent: There's no deep sigh of relief for this guy.   Don West: No, and then there's another case I'm personally involved in that is almost four years now since the incident and once again, well there's no interest apparently in prosecuting, and the longer the time passes I think the more comfort one can take that there won't be, but there's no guarantee that it won't be picked up at some point in time.   Don West: Now this is not the kind of case where DNA and advances and forensics are likely to change the shift. It's a self-defense case and I think the facts are pretty well known and we can be confident because no charges were filed, that it was thoroughly assessed and an intelligent and informed decision was made. But no guarantee that, who knows? You know that's how, frankly, you hear cases all the time where after five years or 10 years, a suspect in a case, in the traditional typical kind of murder case where they can't prove who did it, they know it was a murder. It's clear that it was a criminal murder, but they don't know for sure who did it or the suspect. There's just not enough evidence. There'll be a statement made, there'll be new forensic evidence or something that will connect the dots and all of a sudden there.   Shawn Vincent: There's a case. So this guy Farr, he had sort of a, the case was dismissed at one point. There are several months, then it was reasserted. The reporting kind of goes cold on this. At one point there's going to be a trial in December. I don't think that trial happens. I couldn't find any reports on it, so it was continued or the likely case of it or dismissed. But that guy spent a long time and wondering what was going to happen to him. And a lot of that has to do with some of the choices he made during this. Well, I guess there's, there's one critical choice here. If we're going to talk about the lessons learned from the case and that is he chose to fire against the intruder before the intruder had gained access to his house. This is, we were talking about the enemy at the gates.   We talked just earlier today about a guy who went out to meet an intruder in his yard. We've talked about the Ted Wafer case where he opened the door to the intruder on the porch. We talked about a similar case where a guy had two people breaking into his house. He knew who they were. He knew they were there to get them and he fired through the door and killed both of them. He was found justified probably because he knew once he got into the house, he knew what their intent was.   Don West: And he was outnumbered and apparently the police were pretty satisfied that was good. That was true.   Shawn Vincent: But our general advice was you probably should never shoot through a closed, locked door. We talked about a case in Cincinnati where this mother of five, her abusive ex boyfriend came, was raging on the front yard and trying to get in, and he finally pulled out the air conditioner, the window unit, and it was only then when he tried to get into the window unit that she fired and ended up wounding him and just disabling him. She was clearly justified, but it was that moment when that threshold was to be crossed. The breach had been made and Farr shoots before that moment.   Don West: So we touched upon this in our conversation, this notion of prosecutorial discretion, the discretion that a prosecutor has in any criminal case, but I think especially in these kinds of cases. If they don't have clear marching orders from above that they always do something when these these things are present and the prosecutor's going to, after looking at the case package, you want to talk to law enforcement, they may reach out independently to talk to witnesses. They have the authority to do that. Of course, they have the benefit of the forensic reports. A lot of them the police don't have, at least not at first and they can sort of piece this together. They will scrutinize and scrutinize and dissect and turn inside and out any statement that the accused made, the shooter made, to see if it matches up with other witness statements, but I think maybe most importantly if it matches up with the physical evidence. They'll take a look at gunshot residue, trajectory. In this case they might very well look at the door jamb. Was there damage to the door jamb? What kind of door was it? Is it steel or is it thin wood that could be easily smashed down?   Shawn Vincent: Right, in Ted Wafer they brought in the screen door that was between him and Renisha McBride to try to decide what damage was caused by her that night.   Don West: Sure, and they can do this in the comfort of their office with the quiet and a time to reflect. Nothing like the decisions that were made of course at the scene.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the life or death imminent decisions.   Don West: They'll take a look at his statement when he said, "My daughter was there in between me and the door." And see if that really holds water. How old was she? Could he have said to her, get out of the way. Come here, go upstairs. Could he have done anything to have increased her safety before he used it as a justification for shooting through the door? He said, as I recall, that he could see the face of the sailor through the window in the door and that he was yelling at him and showed him the gun and one would think just logically, the prosecutor certainly will think this through, it's not a home invasion robbery. It's not somebody bursting into your house to hold you at gunpoint to steal things from you typically, if they bang on the door and yell and want you to come open the door. They may be crazy. They may be drunk, but it's not likely that they're part of a home invasion team.   Shawn Vincent: If it's a home invasion robber, they'll knock and say, "Hey everybody, we're here to rob you. We're going to barge in 10 seconds."   Don West: "Please open your door."   Shawn Vincent: "Get ready for us. Get your shotgun ready." And yeah.   Don West: There apparently wasn't any clear attempt to kick the door in. I'm sure that would have been mentioned if there'd been evidence to show that. So even though Mr. Farr had seconds to make these decisions, they're going to be looked at over the course of days and weeks and months, in this case a number of months. Speedy trial and then refiled. And there may be some critical evidentiary aspects. There may be some part of his story that doesn't fit some of the other known facts and they're really wrestling with how to go forward. The prosecutor has to feel bad for this guy, probably doesn't want to prosecute him. Hawaii, I don't think, necessarily, is the best state to be in when you're dealing with the. . .   Shawn Vincent: As a defender. Yeah.   Don West: You've got all that stuff.   Shawn Vincent: And the fact that he didn't legally own the weapon he used -- it doesn't help.   Don West: Does not help.   Shawn Vincent: We talked about how they're mutually exclusive charges, but it doesn't make his judgment in the self-defense case look better.   Don West: And the fact of who you kill really shouldn't factor in either. Every life is worth the same, I guess would be the statement. But as a practical circumstance, he killed a 41 year old Navy veteran . . .   Shawn Vincent: Active service.   Don West: Who was about to ship off, who was serving his country, who was just blowing off a little steam before he headed out to protect us.   Shawn Vincent: Freedom and democracy.   Don West: Yeah. And that's very compelling and makes it even more tragic.   Shawn Vincent: And the victims have an influence on the prosecutors, don't they?   Don West: Sure.   Shawn Vincent: I mean the prosecutors make their decisions, but if it's the Navy saying, "We want you to get this guy." I'm not saying that they said that in this case, we don't know. But if it's a compelling -- the victim has somebody, an uncle in law enforcement and he has some sway -- they're sensitive. They're advocates for the victims.   Don West: They are, and the family of the victim, frankly, as you know, it sounds kind of crude almost, but how much noise the family of the deceased makes can impact how the decisions are made and the prosecution. Are there legions of people in protests or are the family members that are really focusing the attention on this case and maybe the media attention as well?   Shawn Vincent: You saw that in Ted Wafer too that the family was out there protesting every day until they finally filed charges.   Don West: And I know there are some cases, you and I have been involved in them, where the prosecutor's feeling so much heat, even when they think they probably don't want to file criminal charges, they either do anyway, which is sort of succumbing to the political stuff or in a lot of jurisdictions, even when they don't have to, they'll punt and put the case before the grand jury. I've seen that several times where the prosecutor has the authority to file the charges, but they decide it's kind of a hot potato.   Shawn Vincent: Like Ferguson.   Don West: Sure.   Shawn Vincent: Ferguson, Missouri where the kid shot the cop.   Don West: Other way around.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, the cop shot the kid, right. I think the prosecutor wanted to null pross that, but he sent it to the grand jury.   Don West: And the grand jury cleared, and it's still controversial. So there are those cases where the prosecutors under lots of pressure from any number of angles and that's assuming true motives. You still never know when there's a political pressure somewhere because the boss wants to get reelected or you want to run for office as a prosecutor and in a close call you may make the personal choice. Who knows. I'm not . . .   Shawn Vincent: Suggesting that any of that's happening here, but it's funny it’s been dismissed and then reappointed.   Don West: Yeah. But this is another one of those examples of just a tragic outcome and we spend so much time and we wring our hands. Could something have happened that would have changed the course of this, either for the homeowner, frankly, for the deceased. It was what it was. He was just drunk and out of his mind a little bit and confused. And the homeowner . . .   Shawn Vincent: Well, we've talked before about this window of justification, that the window opens and it closes and it's only in this very specific frame work of time where use of force is justified. And we've seen cases where they fire a little bit too soon. This is one of those cases. It very well could have been 30 seconds from then the door splinters, the glass breaks, and all of a sudden now the windows open, literally opens, and then we've seen cases where like in the pharmacist's case where the perpetrator leaves and there's a final shot after the fact. Once the threat was neutralized.   Don West: That's like the person in Oklahoma city where there are shots fired after the robber is incapacitated.   Shawn Vincent: That's right.   Don West: And that's clearly viewed by the prosecutor, a guy who was viewed as sort of the hero initially by the media for stopping these armed robbers, winds up getting prosecuted and convicted of murder for shooting the robber after the robber was already down.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah. And so I think you have a case here, a guy who was almost justified and he's facing prosecution because he fired too soon. And the lesson I take from it is if I ever find myself in that circumstance, I want to be thinking about that window. If someone's calling 9-1-1, I'm thinking tactically. Where am I? There's where my daughter is. Has the window opened yet? Is that threat imminent and what would it take for that threat to be imminent? And hopefully I'll have the peace of mind, state of mind and the judgment to wait for them. But that's like I said at the beginning -- we talked about tone -- is why I get so passionate about these cases, because I can see myself there and how seconds can make the difference.   Don West: Obviously easier said than done. You would think, well the daughter goes upstairs, he retreats further up the steps maybe with still a view of the door and the gun ready and if he comes through the door and still seems to be aggressive, maybe that's a better time. It certainly would be much more justifiable when a prosecutor is sitting in the easy chair trying to decide whether to prosecute this guy or not.   Shawn Vincent: Yeah, tough case.   Don West: This is one of those as so many of them we talk about that we know they're awful, they're absolutely awful, but are they lawful? And this is one that may very well be awful but lawful, but the fact that he's being prosecuted suggests that there are at least some of the authorities believed that he had other decisions he could have made, and that the decision he made to fire the gun, to take life as a consequence of it were simply not supportable under the law of self-defense.

Normally a podcast anniversary is a purely joyous occasion - I've been putting out The Thoughtful Travel Podcast consistently for four whole years now! - but in the times of Covid-19 it's certainly a bittersweet time to be talking about anything connected to travel. I debated long and hard about how to celebrate and then realised that, stuck as I am at home, it was finally time to take a deep dive into my huge stack of travel journals documenting past trips. I hoped to find some gems and lessons to share with you all - and I think I did, or perhaps I just spent a completely self-indulgent day in my own memories - I'll let you be the judge! There'll be photos and more at the show notes. Enjoy! Links: Join our Facebook group for Thoughtful Travellers - https://www.facebook.com/groups/thoughtfultravellers Show notes: https://notaballerina.com/180

127: Interview with Dr Larry Little Josh: So, I've got a special guest with us today, which is Dr. Larry Little. Now, Dr. Larry Little is somebody who's been very, very fun part of my life and has influenced millions of people through his book Make a Difference. Now Make a Difference is all about doing just that, making a difference. And I'd like to introduce you now, Dr. Larry Little, why'd you want to make this book? Learn more about how to make a difference at dorksdelivered.com.au Dr. Larry Little Well, Josh, thank you first of all For allowing me to be with you and just to hang out and to talk. I'm so proud of you and you're such an incredible leader, and example of what that make a difference the whole concept is about. And you're a wonderful example of why I wrote the book. Because I understood that people they may be brilliant and certainly can do things from a skill standpoint, can do things from a technical standpoint that were... and they were very gifted in that area. But what happened was I had entrepreneurs and owners and people that were leaders would come to me and they would say, "You know, Larry, I had this wonderful, for instance, engineer and she was brilliant. So we promoted her and she failed miserably. We promoted her, she had a team of people around her. She had no clue how to lead a team. She frustrated the team. She was frustrated. She ended up leaving. So we lost a great engineer, not to mention we still have a need for this leader in this area." I got to thinking about that, Josh and I saw a gap and how we literally talk, communicate, engage others. And I thought we're going at this kind of in an ineffective way. So, the Make a Difference concepts began to emerge around understanding who you are but not so you can just understand who you are, but let's understand who you are so that I can then understand who others, who they are and so that I can get to where they are and speak their language. And that's the real secret if you were to take... So if you take the whole book, in a nutshell it's understand who you are, but understand how to speak the language of others. The results have been really, really exciting as I've seen relationships grow personally in business, professionally simply because people begin to understand how to connect, engage, and really speak the language of those within their circle of influence. Josh: I completely agree. And one of the things that I definitely found from the book that I got now, I was fortunate enough to have started reading the book a number of ago when you did a bit of a tour around Australia and I met you in person, which was... didn't realise I guess the golden nugget, the opportunity that had landed in my lap in meeting you and how it was the change and pivot the direction of my life and the influence that it gave to me. So one of the things that I've found is it's not just about business, and it's definitely about relationships and communication and the way that you're talking with people and understanding what's their carrot for some people, and what is the driving motivators? why do people act the way they do? I know myself, and if it's not overly obvious, I'm definitely a quite a monkey. And the the interesting thing, actually, I'll give you a bit of background on the book. So you've got different characters that you all relate to, and there's different of profiling that you can do. But this is really easy to see and understand what type of person that you are and the type of... and how you discuss different things with different people. And how you've received the information from different people. And there's different books that I've read over the years and other ones on the five love languages, which I'm very familiar with. A different type of concept, but still resonates strongly with me. And being able to understand that when I'm talking with a line and they told me something very directly, and it was impacting me emotionally from them telling me what they've told me and it was... And they've told me and then it's been shifted on, it's out of their mind. And someone might say, "Josh, you look stupid in that shirt. What are you wearing that shirt for?" And all of a sudden that's in my head every time I see them for the next three years, they think I look stupid. And whether or not it was just something silly that I did or some off the cuff comment. And in my mind they were thinking about that as well the whole time, and I was thinking about it. It had entered their mind and let their mind and that was it for them. Dr. Larry Little Great. Josh: So, it's interesting just to understand how people think about you and how you should start thinking about others. And I'd say comfortably it's affected in positive ways, all areas of my life. My communication with family, friends, business associates, anyone and everyone. The way that I present myself on stage, the whole lot has changed because you can more easily gauge the feedback of the people that you're discussing or conversing with and work your way from there. It's a valuable read. So what would you say is where are you going from here? Dr. Larry Little Well, first of all, Josh, once again, congratulations, you get it. That's exactly the purpose of the book. And books like The Five Love Languages the Make a Difference these books all have one thing in common. And that is, it's about servant leadership. It's about understanding how to get to where someone else is instead of them to get to where you are. And that means you've learned to put your sensors in when you're around lions and not be offended with their direct language. You've learned to when you're presenting, to understand who your audience is and present in that format. And all of those things are... those are concepts, principles that really are undergirded by that servant leadership model. And the servant leadership model is just, let's understand and look at leadership from a service mentality instead of a dictatorial, narcissistic mentality. Josh: Yes. Dr. Larry Little Which it really is about serving others. And that's the premise of the book. The book, there are two myths that we really have to debunk. And the first myth is that we believe everybody shares our value view. In other words, we believe that what we think is important, everybody else thinks is important in terms of emotional connection and those kinds of things. That's not true. Everybody has their own value view. The second myth is that we believe everybody views us the same way we view ourselves. That's not true. We had this narrative that we tell ourselves, and this is how, based on our personality, based on who we are that is the narrative that drives our behaviour many times. But when we become self aware and we say, "Wait a minute. You know what, that narrative is not true for her or for him," then it changes the way we connect with others. And it's that understanding that drives us to serve others. And really the crucible of leadership is your purpose. Why are you leading? Why are you doing what you do, Josh? And the answer is because... for me it's because I want to make a difference in the lives of others. I want to make a difference in their life. I want to be able to speak into that. So this is a vehicle, this Make a Difference book is a vehicle for that. And that book it's been around and it's been around the world and we've been just very excited and very humbled by seeing the difference that it's made in relationships. Because Josh, if you in this interview you had said, "Hey Larry, this book it's really good. It's helped me to be a better leader. Boy it's helped me to be really much better president, CEO of my company, entrepreneur. Boy I could really lead my people in my company now." I would really be disappointed in you and I would say, "I'm so sorry. I was disappointed in myself because we didn't achieve what I wanted for you." But if you said what you said a minute ago, that, "Hey, this has helped me personally. This book has helped me in my personal life with those relationships that are so important to me. And oh by the way, I use the concepts in my professional world as well because it spills over." Then we celebrate. Then we say, "Hey, that is awesome. I'm so excited. I'm so proud and I'm so glad that you were able to use a bit of this to speak into the lives of others." So what's next? And it's really cool to watch it. The organisation that I work with, it's called Legal Centre for Leadership and we are taking these Make a Difference concepts and we continue to coach around them. With the executive and leadership coaching. We also have make a different seminars. We have a series of those that from accountability to engaging the disconnect, those kinds of things that our trained facilitators do a tremendous job. Very excited about our products and tools that we offer to support that and assessments. And really excited to roll out in 2020 what we are calling Eagle University. And Josh, we are taking those concepts and we are building a university online where you can go and get certified as an Eagle leader by walking through these, make a difference courses and other courses and that kind of thing. We are, our team is, they're going at it. They're excited about it, and we're focused on it. And I'm so grateful they let me hang out with them. It's exciting times around Eagle leadership. Josh: That's cool. So for the people that are in the land down under, a lot of the time that we find I guess we were only a very small, I guess we're a small continent full of widespread people. Is that someone that you'll be touring around Australia with or is that something we could say and definitely jump into online for some of the online university type media? Dr. Larry Little Oh yeah, the answer's yes and yes. Definitely you can jump online. Definitely you can participate in the Eagle university in the coaching, the seminars. With that I was just over in... well I would say your neighbour, maybe, we were in New Zealand. Josh: East Australia as I call it. Dr. Larry Little Yeah, the East Australians. Yes. So we were in New Zealand and we were able to roll out some of these concepts and yes, we'll be back in Australia. We'll look forward to that. But a lot of our work from a coaching standpoint can be done virtually now. We coach leaders literally across the globe. And so to answer your question, absolutely, we can do it virtually or in person or online. So that's exciting. Josh: That's cool. Yeah. Well, it's definitely as I said, it's impacted my life and it's been something strong enough that my position has evolved as it does over the years. Over the 12 years I've been in business, I've gone from being the guy in the trenches and talking with customers all the time, to being the guy that goes out and builds a team. And then from the team now I've started influencing and leading other business owners, which is something I'm very, very dear about and interested in doing. Because it's helping not just grow my business and the way that on own my mindset, it's helping grow theirs and hopefully accelerating their growth. Instead of taking 12 years to gain the knowledge that I've gained, helping them get it in a fast paced way that allows for them to apply that to their business, grow their business. And have the maturity that they can have, hopefully sooner. One of the actual great bits of feedback that I got and only a couple of weeks ago I had someone call me up, and I'm sure he would've called you up if you had your number. But he called me up and he said, "Joshua, I can't tell you how happy I am that you book Make a Difference on to me and how much it's changed my life." He's only halfway through the book at the moment. And him and his partner, they both work together in a local plumbing business. And he took his car to the mechanic and so the mechanic he's been taking his car to for years, and he he left. And he noticed that there was something wrong in the brakes and he thought, okay I'll bring it back to him and I'll just let him know there's something wrong with the brakes. And he thought, I'll talk to him as he would because they're on a friendship basis, the working friend relationship. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: He said, "Oh, I know you came in and you discussed... you had my car serviced, but I've noticed that the brake pads don't seem quite right. I've had a bit of a check over some pretty technical mind and I've noticed there's only a couple millimetres left. And I know I didn't bring it in to build the brake pads, but whats to go with that?" Now the mechanic went into an attack position, got rather upset with him. And Dan, the person who took the car to the mechanic was able to diffuse the situation by not retaliating and showing his teeth, and instead understanding where he was coming from and making sure to calm down the situation. Now the relationship with the mechanic might not continue on a whole bunch because it's... he felt very, I guess... you don't feel comfortable when someone does something like that. Josh: But it showed him this mechanic that's been a local mechanic for 20, 25 years around the area, what he could gain from the learnings or from the teachings that you have. And how impactful it's been for somebody who's only halfway through your book. And I can only imagine what value they would be getting out of any of the courses and through your seminars. Dr. Larry Little Well, you know I'm really glad to hear that. It is fulfilling and I just love to hear when someone says, this is helping me in my personal life. That was the purpose of the book. And that Dan had the competency to absorb and then to put into practise how to have those hard conversations. Realise that situation, how to have a hard conversation is certainly very, very important part of the things that we talk about in the book and in our seminars. So it speaks well of your friend. And like you said that professional relationship may change and look different and not be salvaged. But the fact that he did not allow himself to engage in that personal conflict, but yet he had healthy conflict and had a hard conversation, it says a lot about him. Josh: Absolutely. And there's a book that I've read by called [Flawsome 00:15:14] and it's about embracing your flaws. Now these aren't necessarily personal flaws, but about embracing flaws that you might have had because you dropped the ball, you stuffed up. Now everyone does it. Everyone has a bad day. Everyone has an off day. And when you dropped this ball, Flawsome is all about making sure that you embrace the flaw and then overcome it. What I love about Make a Difference is it's about making sure you're understanding it from the other person's perspective so that once you aren't... you have a lot of empathy towards the situation and you're not going in with the Lion heart outset or the monkey outset or the camel outset. And I think that's such really important to do. Dr. Larry Little Well, I think that you're very wise and that is a skill and you're 100% right. You've got to be willing to fail. You've got to be willing to say, it's not about getting it right every time, Joshua. Right? It's about saying, "I'm going to try to get in those other quadrants." And when I say other quadrants, I'm talking about where are the other personalities live? And the book breaks that down. So, that takes practise just like anything else. It takes discipline, rigour and rhythm. And if we have those things and we say, "I'm going to have the discipline." Yeah. Josh, just a quick... we'll chase a quick rabbit is, one of the things I've never understood this when we start teaching and talking about this, sometimes some of those lions or camels will say, "These are soft skills. You're just teaching soft skills." And the truth is no, there's nothing soft about it. This is hard. These are hard skills. If they were so often easy, then everybody would be doing it and relationships would be flourishing everywhere and we would never have problems. Right? This takes practise and it takes it... Good news. It is something you can choose to learn and choose to grow in. Right? But it takes practise and being willing to say, "Hey Josh, I blew that. I tried that. I'm sorry. Let me back up and try something. Yeah, Josh, I thought you were lion. I was a bit direct there. Let me back up." Because you're really a monkey and I got to tell you how good looking that shirt is and how I really like it. Josh: Exactly, exactly. And it's about understanding someone else, understanding how your team's working. And I also find, and I've done a couple of YouTube videos and this one's called the Mirror Mindset. It's about understanding yourself and about also knowing a situation where you need to be present as a different person. So, being a leader is about making sure you understand your team and you have your team all pulling towards... I think the saying goes, all ships rise with high tide. And hopefully I didn't quote that wrong. Josh: The important thing is when I was very introverted at school, and very introverted for the first part of my life. I was overweight. I was picked on to a spot where I wasn't able to walk anymore. Walk any more for a couple of weeks, when I was... Sorry, bashed up would be the more appropriate term rather than picked on, physically picked on. It was a traumatic experience. And when I lost the weight, I lost 38 kilos, I was still the timid person that was still trying to make people feel good, feel happy. And the reason I believe I became a monkey or what was because everyone resonates with the class clown. Everyone resonates with something that can make them laugh. And the universal languages is the smile. And Mr. Bean did it really well as did Charlie Chaplin making everyone smile without even speaking. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: Now, now when you read this book and you understand the teachings of Larry, it's fantastic to sort of know, okay, when you jump onto stage, you need to snap out of the mindset that you had and the person that you was, and you then need to become this other person. And one of the things that I found that taught me a lot is people such as [WindoyYankovic 00:19:19] Jim Carrey and a bunch of other people that are very loud extroverted people. But at heart are still very introverted people and they're actors and they're acting extroverted. Now, what I found is I was able to put on different hats, depending on different situations, and more easily resonate and get my message across. If I'm talking with a lion and I know that the information they want is to be direct. They want information, but they're not looking for details, that they're wanting to pieces to get the information... to get everything done. And that also goes for myself when I'm in a situation that I can't be a monkey or I shouldn't be a monkey. Or I need to be aware of all of those traits. It allows for me to be a better person in all situations, even if it's, yeah, I guess in just all situations. So- Dr. Larry Little Well, Josh you know, you're so right. And first let me say to you congratulations for how you walked through trauma because the truth is that was a very traumatic event for you as a young man. Congratulations for losing the weight, I knew that took discipline and nobody understands that work. But I'm really impressed with the fact that you look back at that very difficult, unfair, not okay situation that you found yourself in. And in today's world would call it being bullied, and that's not okay under any circumstance. However, you chose to look at that and instead of remaining the victim, you chose to learn and you chose to grow, and you chose to overcome that and say, "I'm going to... Was that fair? No. Was it okay? No. But neither is life." Life has never fair. Life is not fair. Josh: No. Dr. Larry Little And the only thing we really get to choose is how we handle the struggles. We don't get to choose if we struggle because we all struggle. We all have things. But we do get to choose how we navigate those. And you chose to learn and to grow from a... I hate this really, but the truth is we seem to learn more from the hard experiences in our life. Not that they're okay, but if we choose, we can really learn and grow from those. And you did just that, and boy that's inspirational. Thank you for that. That's choosing to learn and grow and become a better leader and then to go into these concepts instead of becoming bitter, angry, defeated, you said, "No, no, no, I'm going to learn these concepts so that I can invest in others better, so that I can lead through serving them. So that I can understand and be self aware of who I need to be." Josh, that's great work. Congratulations. Josh: Thank you. It's obviously doesn't come with having the right mentality and making sure that you are investing in your personal development. Interestingly, actually that story has a second part where the person... there was these, about three different people that were picking on me out of a school of 1200. It was relatively low numbers, but still life impacting, isn't it? It's not about the percentage, I guess. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: And so one of my first jobs was at subway, subway sandwiches, which we've got everywhere I guess. And I'm there behind the counter as a sandwich artist as it would be, and one of the bullies came in and my heart dropped. And I went, Oh my goodness. And I started freaking out and I thought to myself, no, because... I thought to myself and thought about it from their perspective, and put why are they bullying? What is going on in their life? And I feel whatever's happening in my life could only be... I've got great parents, I've had a great upbringing. I'm fortunate enough to say that I live in one of the best countries in the world, and we... and I thought what has happened in their life for them to be doing what they're doing? And I felt in my mind, it calmed me down. So I thought, okay, they've gone in a direction where they've had to lash out. And I thought they probably don't have the best family and upbringing. And I'd thought of this in my head and as I'm making their sandwich, and obviously everyone has this one thing sitting on this shoulder saying, spit in their sandwich. Dr. Larry Little Right. Josh: No one listens to this one, I hope. I hope not. I still go to subway. Obviously we're not talking about yet. So and he said to me without me saying anything and I was just smiling and being the best person that I could, and making sure that my outlook was not dropped down to any of the previous influence that I'd had from the situation. And he said, "Josh, I'm sorry for picking on you." And he said, "I'm sorry for bullying you at school." And he said that without me putting anything up, and nearly made me cry because I thought, wow, he's also matured in his mindset- Dr. Larry Little Wow. Josh: And that instantly all like... everyone's sort of... always having not miss about it. No, not about that situation, but at school. And when he said that everything sort of just felt like it was just a blanket that disappeared, and it shows the mental games that you make in your mind and how that plays and the impact that has on you, and what someone might say or do to you that changes and pivots the direction of your life. And as I said I'd be lying if I said that... I'm pretty sure when you first gave me the book, it was 2013 I think. Might have been 2012 around then. But it was, I can comfortably say that people come into your lives sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. That bully... And it's all again up to the mindset. That bully came into my life, and at the time I thought it was for bad, but then it's allowed for me to further understand how people think. So in a way it was for good. It was a hard lesson to learn. You came into my life for good. And again, that's a pivot and grown the direction of my life and how I've gone to impact things and people and that has been for good. So, it's all about your mindset, everyone... And this is again in the YouTube video I made the mirror mindset is about. When I started losing weight, I felt still overweight. My eyes saw a fat person in the mirror. And it was only after I then put on a couple more kilos that I then looked at a photo of me when I'd lost as much weight that I look anorexic. And I thought I've gone in the other direction. And so it's about your mindset and making sure that you keep in check and making sure you understand how people are perceiving you, how you're perceiving people. And know that the way that you're seeing you does not necessarily reflect the way that other people are seeing you. And we always, we're our worst critics, I'd agree. We do agree? Dr. Larry Little Yeah. There's no doubt. Well, unless we're narcissistic and then we're delusional. Right? Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little But I think a lot of times that's very true of leaders and people that we are our worst critics. But perception is reality. And so you have to make sure that your perception is rational and it is real. And you had to check that even when the bully was apologising to you. You could have perceived that for him just to try to make up to you or that he had an ulterior motive, or that he wanted to get something for it. But you didn't. You took that at face value. You allowed it to be a source of healing for you. When people come into your life, when we introduced you to the concept that you had a choice to make. You could have perceived that as these are just soft skills and maybe it's good for somebody else, but you don't know what I've been through. You don't know what I've suffered. You don't know... But you didn't do that. You said, "I'm going to take those, I'm going to perceive that as something good and I'm going to use it and I'm going to apply it." And you did that Josh. And your choice, and we can never underestimate the power of choice in our life. We all have choices to make every single day. And you chose to take those concepts, you chose to use those concepts, you chose to apply those concepts. And you know as well as I do, if you were honest that took work. I mean, you've been doing this now since 2013 and you're still applying it and still using it. It's not a onetime and done. It's you've made that a part of your life and that took a lot of hard work. Josh: Right. And it's hard work. Nothing comes easy. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: And a few things my father has taught me, is nothing comes easy and trust everyone until they prove themselves untrustworthy. Dr. Larry Little That's right. Josh: So, walk up to someone with open arms, not, not closed, and feel comfortable with the person that you're approaching until they show themselves to be, not the person that they first appeared to be. And that's a... Another person that's influenced my life. It's you and dad now, so- Dr. Larry Little Love that. Wow. You know, it's so true. And the whole centrepiece around the Make a Difference is that. And that's what we entitled it Make a Difference is that it's outward focused. It's about becoming self aware, yes. But becoming self aware so that we can give to others. Becoming self aware so that we can make a difference in the lives of others. And so you have done that, you've taken that and that's our goal in teaching these concepts. Josh, the truth is there are a lot of personality profiles out there. There are a lot of psychological assessments and they're all good. But seriously, there are a lot of very good psychological assessments that you can take. The problem comes when you take those tools and you get this plethora of data, you get all this stuff right? And they set it, and you try... First, you don't have time to go through it all. Second, you're not really sure what it means. And third, and most importantly, you don't know how the heck you're going to apply that quickly. So, the concepts we developed, the secret is not in a little assessment tool, that's not the the secret. The secret is well, I'll show you. So the secret is this, the secret is white picket fence. Josh: Okay. Dr. Larry Little White picket fence. So right now, Josh, even if you wanted to or not, it doesn't matter. Who you are, you're thinking of a white picket fence. You could say- Josh: I sure am. Dr. Larry Little ... I'm not thinking of one, but you are. And so that's the secret of what we do because neurologically our brains are hardwired to download word pictures very quickly and to process them very quickly. So, we use silly animal names, much love monkey, leading lion, competent camel, a tranquil turtle, so that our leaders are... And by the way, when I say leaders, I'm talking about all of us because we all are leaders. We all lead- Josh: Absolutely. Dr. Larry Little ... at least one person and that's ourselves. We only get to choose if we lead ourselves poorly or wisely. So, we wanted something that leaders could take and download quickly and apply quickly. So, the secret is in making it simple so that it can be practically applied so that then you can begin speaking that lion language to the lions in your life. You can speak the turtle language to the turtles in your life, and learn how in the world do you speak camel language and you speak that into the lives of camels. But the secret to the success of this, I truly believe is as simple as white picket fence. It's the practical application. It's the word pictures that we created because colours and numbers, our brain can't process that quick enough to really use it in the moment. Josh: Having a full letters that come back on a piece of paper without talking about the other tests. Obviously you can't really describe that or relate that to someone. But when you ask a five-year-old, "What does a monkey do, and how does a monkey look? How does a monkey react to a situation? And how does a lion look and what does a lion do and how does a lion react to a situation?" And anything that's worth teaching and worth learning should be able to be understood by a 12 year old. And I could comfortably say that being that we're related to animals, everyone knows animals, everyone loves animals. Everyone can see and see how they work together and how they can work better together. So, it's very, very smart the way that you did it. And as you said, situationally you can look and go, "Okay fine. They're that sort of person, they're that sort of person." And we've got a job network in Australia called Seek, which is you put an ad up on there to find a new employee. And we were using the make a difference test to sort of work out how they would fit into our organisation and how that would fit with us and the rest of our team. Dr. Larry Little Love it. Josh: And right from the word go we knew how we would be relating to them. And it's important too, what you pointed out earlier about engineers. And engineers may be being put into a managerial role does not necessarily mean that they should be managers. And it doesn't necessarily mean like a pay rise and a responsibility rise may not be what they're looking for. It may not be their carrot, and it may not be something they're looking for in their skillset. But if it is, it's definitely make a difference as a way that they can make it work with that position to make a difference, to there, present in the moment around that new position. Dr. Larry Little You're so right. Hey Josh, so I have a little secret and if you want me to, I'll let you in on it. You'd ask earlier what do you have? What's next? You want me to share it with you? I'm going to tell you just a little snippet about what's happening next. Josh: Yes, please. That'd be wonderful. Dr. Larry Little So, we're very excited that we knew the Make a Difference book, we felt like it had the concepts and we're so thrilled that it has helped people on an international level. That's awesome. But I knew there was something else and I knew there was, and the series is wonderful. We're glad to do that. We're so glad that, so cool what would people do that? But I knew there was something else. So, for over a year I've been piloting ideas and thinking about ideas and teaching and doing some work. And just last weekend I finished, I went in to an intensive, what I call an intensive, and I wrote a book that I believe is the sequel to the Make a Difference book. The working title of the book is called Lead to Make a Difference Above and Below the Line. Josh: Okay. Dr. Larry Little It's a different concept, but here's a snippet just to kind of give you an idea of where I'm coming from. You have to read the book to find out what above and below the line is all about. But it builds on, if you think about the DNA diagram, in the Make a Difference, it'll give you a hint. But the concepts are more around this. We talk about teams and that kind of thing and why they underperform or why there's toxicity in the team, or toxicity in a relationship. And the book centres not only on professional, but we talk a lot about personal relationships. And I think there's a monster. I think the monster attacks our relationships and attacks our teams. This monster is, I believe the reason that companies go under, that company's struggle, that relationships are destroyed. And the monster is fear, and the fear of failure, fear of being misrepresented, fear of being misunderstood. We could go on and on and I think the antidote to that fear is trust. But not in the traditional context of trust. We always talk about trust in terms of trust in a team or building trust in your relationship or building trust to be a strong... to trust each other to... Here's the problem with that. There's a huge disconnect there. Gap, if you will, and this is it. I don't think we can truly develop trust in someone else until we understand how to develop trust in ourselves. And I think self trust is something that people don't want to think about, but how in the world can I ask you to join me in a trusting relationship if I don't trust myself? Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: How can I build trust on a team if I don't trust my reaction? Josh: Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: Yeah. So that, the book Lead to Make a Difference Above and Below the Line talks about how to gain that self trust. There an assessment tool in there about it. So, I'm very excited about it. I think it's going to... Boy, I hope that it helps a lot of folks. It was difficult to write because it kind of went down a different direction even then when I first started the concepts way back. Because I've talked and listened, and learned and I've tried to learn from others. But I think the end result is going to be pretty exciting. Josh: Well, I'm definitely pumped. I've loved your first book and I'm very interested to read the next one. It's something that I think everyone has... As I said, everyone has this demon inside themself. They're self-doubting, and I know I'm going to say I'm the worst for it. The worst for it, I guess. And I know myself, I have a team that look up to me. I have staff members that have left. And I've continued personal relationships with them. I'm still friends with them. And whenever they come to Queensland, they see me. And I sent out a something to one of them recently. And and I said, "Oh look, I'm looking to go this approach." And I said, "I'm worried about some of the directions that, some of the parts of the business are going." And I sort of brought them up to him and he said, "I've worked for five companies since you. You are the most professional company. You offer the best, most outstanding service verse any of them. You should not be worried about anything." And I felt wow, the way he's told me and how he was able to put that data together nearly made me cry to be honest. It was wonderful and I thought, everyone's got this doubt in himself and I can't do this and I won't do this. And I relate it back to the girl at school that you had the crush on, or 2009. The person you had at school, you had a crush on I guess. But the girl at school that you had the crush on, looked across you thought, Oh, I'm going to... At the right moment I'm going to go there and talk to her and I'm going to... Oh, I'm going to ask if I can say hey or hang out with her at lunch or whatever the case was. And then you didn't. And a year goes by, two years goes by and this person is saying, still do it. And you go, "No, I'm not going to do it." And then you... I'm not going to have to hang out with her. She's too pretty. She's too beautiful. And then the last day of school happens and then you finish school and you realise, wait, I'm in the same position now as I was before if I hadn't jumped on that opportunity. And this self doubt can have you lose opportunities and have you fail at I guess the butterfly effect. If you've got a small thing that just saying hello once to someone, reaching out like I did with yourself and saying hey. The smallest thing can build into a big thing for everyone involved, if you've got the... I guess not the guts, but the power within yourself to override those thoughts, feelings, and strive forward. So, I guess it's an important message. Dr. Larry Little: No, it really is. And it's revelation when someone realises that she no longer has to allow feelings to drive her behaviour. He no longer has to allow irrational thoughts, right, to define who he is or who he's not. That there is choice involved and we can learn the discipline of learning to lead through those emotions and making good choices based on that rational thought process. In fact, if you take two leaders and look at two leaders who were put in the exact same scenario of struggle. One may do very poorly that he may become a victim. He may become disassociated, he may become... Another may experience struggle and hardship and pain and so... But at the end he's grown stronger. Josh: Yeah. Dr. Larry Little: What is the difference? And so the book addresses that head on. The difference is this person understood how to lead above and below the line, understood the voices that he or she had before them. And we talk about the importance of having a grit, G-R-I-T and leading. And so I don't want to go into all of that and take out time, But I'm very excited about it. I think it's a good, I really do think it's a good sequel to the first make a difference project. Josh: Cool. And is that going to be available in Australia or online or audio books?> Dr. Larry Little: Yeah, all of the above. Right now, it's just brand new and it's actually at our... we're in the editing process right now, so look forward in the spring of 2020. And it will be, our goal is to have it hard copy, online obviously you can get it on Amazon, those kinds of things. And then also I'm going to push our team so that we can do an audio version. I want to do it... In fact, I want to do that for both of those books and create that audible experience as well. So it was a great question. Josh: Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, especially I guess for business owners, and I'm going to say I love a physical book. I love feeling a physical book. I love the paper of a physical book and you want to get many technical people saying that. But I'm in front of a computer monitor sometimes eight hours a day, sometimes 18 hours a day. And the thing that I absolutely love is stepping away from that feeling something and you can... I think you can feel more of an emotion in the book. I don't know. It's probably just someone I'm saying. I feel that there's something there that you just can't get off of a screen. And that's where I'm looking forward to getting the physical book and I think that's going to do it for me. But at the same time, business owners are busy people and some people spend half their lives driving around in cars and I'd sincerely suggest not reading a physical book while in a car driving. Right. Dr. Larry Little: Agreed. Agreed. Josh: Yeah. So, it would be good to see it as an audio book. Well, I'm really happy to have been able to speak with you and go through and hear about the new exciting projects that you've got on offer coming through in the future. And also the, some of the ones that you've got on offer now through the university in bits and pieces, and... or soon to be on offer. Is there anything else that you'd like to ask me will go through? Dr. Larry Little: I'll tell you, Josh. It's leaders like you who are truly going to successfully make a difference moving forward because you are, as our friend Brad Scow talks about the entrepreneurial journey. You're in that leadership journey of now mentoring and coaching and just be encouraged that that is a very, very influential and important place to find yourself. So it is my hope. Who knows, Josh? This is what I might ask of you moving forward. Let's have a talk. I mean, we're always looking for coaches, so you never know, and presenters. So we may have to talk offline a bit about what you're doing. But seriously our website is eaglecenterforleadership.com and we'd love to talk with whoever is listening or watching and to be able to speak into your life as a leader, to walk with you to journey with you. That's a call that we have that is bigger than any of us any one person. We have a team of around 60 or so individuals that are all committed to walking with leaders in order to help them to lead differently and help them to influence others just like you Josh. And so it's been just a real honour. Thank you for calling and inviting me to come hang out with you for a while in the land down under. It's been a blast. Josh: Any bloody time. All right. I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity here as well. And as I said, I've looked up to you and your teachings for quite some time and I've carried them through to my life and carried them through in all aspects. And also in the lives of the people that I'm influencing. And it's touching to hear the stories. And I could only imagine the stories that you would have with people that have come to you and how you've helped them out. And there's a few written in the book, but the amount you would have had from the book, I could only imagine, would be a very impressive and very humbling to have all those. We will put a link to your website in the description below as everyone does, or it will be in the article on our website or in the podcast, or whatever the method is that you're listening. There'll be some way to jump on the site and check it out. And yeah, I really look forward to speaking with you again and yeah, going from there. Dr. Larry Little: Thanks my friend. Good day. Josh: Thanks. You too.  

BE SURE TO SEE THE SHOWNOTES AND LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE HERE. Eve Picker: [00:00:14] Hi there. Thanks so much for joining me today for the latest episode of Impact Real Estate Investing.   [00:00:23] My guest today is Tom Murphy, Pittsburgh's turnaround mayor. He oversaw the difficult, but transformative transition of the city from the mid-1990s to mid-2000s. Those were turbulent times and included many highlights and many struggles. During his tenure, he declared a budget crisis, built two stadiums, created a $60 million development fund and built many miles of river trails. Tom Murphy is an authentic city expert.   Eve: [00:01:03] Be sure to go to EvePicker.com to find out more about Tom on the show notes page for this episode, and be sure to sign up for my newsletter so you can access information about impact real estate investing and get the latest news about the exciting projects on my crowdfunding platform, Small Change.   Eve: [00:01:38] Hello, Tom, I'm so delighted that you found time to join me today.   Tom Murphy: [00:01:42] I'm always honored to be with you. You were one of the pioneers in many developments in Pittsburgh when very few people saw the opportunity.   Eve: [00:01:50] You were the second longest serving mayor in the history of Pittsburgh. And in 1994, when Pittsburgh wasn't sure what it was going to become, was really on the verge of collapse. And you shepherded the city through a very turbulent transition from a place that had emptied out with the closing of steel mills and suburban flight, to a city transformed almost every respect. And I was in Pittsburgh for every moment of it. So, you reshaped Pittsburgh, kicking and screaming all the way.   Tom: [00:02:22] Underlining kicking and screaming, Eve. As you remember, every time we tried to do something, there were, there was controversy. I mean, it just, it was amazing to me.   Eve: [00:02:34] Well, this is slightly conservative city, so maybe that was part of it, but people couldn't imagine what you imagined. When you begin with a city that has lost its industry and half its people?   Tom: [00:02:47] Well, I'm a product of that, I mean, my father worked for 51 years at Jones & Laughlin Steel steel mill on the South Side. So, my whole life was defined by the shifts he worked there, I mean ... you know, he was, he worked in the mill. I mean, he wasn't a boss or anything, he just worked in the mill and our lives were shaped by that and ... and sort of everybody I knew pretty much, their lives were tied to the mill. And so I grew up with that. And to watch that disappear in the, really the 70s and the 80s, I was a state legislator on the North Side, and I don't think people appreciate how incredibly destructive it is for families. You know, where you had very traditional families where the husband went to work in the mill, you can make a good living, buy a house, buy a car, take a vacation and now all of a sudden that disappeared. You know, the wives went to work, kids who had thought about going to college deferred that, you know, we lost a whole generation from Western Pennsylvania – 500,000 people left and they were overwhelmingly are our kids, young people who were leaving, because they didn't see a future in Pittsburgh. And so having come through that, having lived it, you know, on the North Side, where we've lived for almost 50 years now, and how destructive it was, never thinking I would be mayor. When I became mayor, I mean, my focus was how do we stabilize this situation? And to do that, we needed to re-imagine Pittsburgh in lots of different ways. In how we educate kids, because you didn't need a high school education, let alone a college education to work in a steel mill. And you know, what we did with all this land, all of these industrial, thousands of acres of industrial property. And the culture of Pittsburgh, which, you know, was almost opposed in the technology industry because they were seen as non-union.   Tom: [00:04:40] And so we went through huge controversies in talking about re-imagining Pittsburgh. And now we've come out the other side and, you know, it looks very different.   Eve: [00:04:51] It does. Did you have a strategy from day one?   Tom: [00:04:57] Well, I laugh at that. I mean, hindsight always gives you the strategy. But we did in the sense that we felt we needed five things, right? We needed money. We were a flat broke city and ... you know, essentially, as you said, I mean, close to bankruptcy. And we needed to figure out how we will get money so we could invest in Pittsburgh and entice developers. Two, we wanted land control. A lot of this land was tied up in bankruptcies and it was, you know, uncertain titles. And so, a developer who has a choice of buying a 100-acre greenfield site or 100-acre steel mill site, they're going to buy the greenfield site. It's safer. And the third was that we needed a really good team of people who were going to be public entrepreneurs, in effect, that were willing to take risk. And the fourth thing we needed, we needed a vision. We needed to be, to sort of know where we wanted to go. And the fifth thing is we needed good public-private partnerships. We needed people who believed that Pittsburgh could be a different place. And you remember back then, Eve, you were one of the few people that ...   Eve: [00:06:08] Yeh.   Tom: [00:06:08] ... were willing to invest in places like East Liberty. It was very hard to get local developers to re-imagine Pittsburgh. They had their little niche. They were comfortable in it. They've been through 30 years of decline. And so all those ingredients, you know, we talked about them when I ran for mayor. And people obviously voted for me. But when we started to do this stuff, they said we didn't know you meant that. So where do we get money? And the first month or so I was Mayor we reduced the city's workforce, reduced the number of police officers we had, then shifted six million dollars of that money annually to finance a $60 million bond issue, which we called the Pittsburgh Development Fund, which gave us money to invest in the future. In every city, I mean, I talk, I meet with cities a lot and talk to them and that's one of the challenges they face is, your demands for the day-to-day. Just 'today' is huge in a city. I mean, everybody wants more police. Nobody's streets are getting salted enough, and potholes, and if you just spend the stuff on all your resources on today, nothing changes. I mean, you're Pittsburgh and in Pittsburgh we were still declining, so the challenge was how do we get some of those resources and use it to invest in the future, which entails risk.   Tom: [00:07:27] The second thing we did, Eve, we went out and bought, as you know, Mulugetta Birru was head of the Urban Redevelopment Authority, and we had him go out and buy almost 1500 acres of land. You know, we bought what was then the South Side works of Jones & Laughlin. We bought the slag dump in Squirrel Hill. We bought the old Sears site in East Liberty. And then, you know, we looked at each other and said, what do we do with this stuff? And that's when we began to form great partnerships with developers. Somebody like you who was willing to invest in that old building in East Liberty and, you know, and others. And the $60 million gave us the ability to create really creative and effective public-private partnerships that share the risk with developers who believe that Pittsburgh could be a different place. That's what we did.   Eve: [00:08:17] I was going to ask the question that, do you believe developers played an important role in the transformation of the city? Obviously you do.   Tom: [00:08:24] I do. I think place is everything. I think it has huge impact on how people live, I think, like crime rates, a whole host of other things. How they, what they think about themselves. I mean, if I live in a neighborhood that has, half the buildings are vacant and there's a lot of litter and everything, you know, I come out my door every morning, I probably have a different reaction than if I live in a neighborhood that has lots of gardens and clean. And so I think that, it has huge impact. And so developers, from our point of view, as you know, were really important partners. And this is, I tell this story all the time, is when we started to see things happen, developers would come and say, Mayor, I have a great idea for you. And we'd say, with all due respect, tell us why it's a great idea for you. And we'll decide whether it's a great idea for us, and if our self interests come together, we'll figure out how to be a good partner and share the risk with you. But that assumed we knew what we wanted and so that was one of the really big challenges. As you remember early in my administration, I had a really great planning director, Eloise Hirsh, who really helped shape that vision, as well as Tom Cox and Mulu and Steve Leaper, really helped shape that whole vision of what Pittsburgh could be. It was really reimagining, you know, old steel mills in the South Side and a slag dump in Squirrel Hill. And so we were looking at, not to ignore other things, but we were looking for things that could be catalytic, that could change people's image of Pittsburgh. And the ballparks obviously help with that, too. I mean that when I was running for mayor, I wasn't planning to be, have anything to do with sports stadiums. And that sort of was one of the challenges of running the city, as you know, I didn't think about it. And then all of a sudden, it's the number-one topic.   Eve: [00:10:17] Well, it's always the number one topic in Pittsburgh. Sports, so.   [00:10:20] Well, unfortunately, I mean, I don't know if you know the story, Eve. As I, when I ran for mayor, I was elected mayor in November. In early December, the then-owners of the Pirates gave me a letter that said they intended to sell the team. I don't even know this, that Dick Caligiuri many years ago had signed an agreement with the team that if ever they were going to sell it, that the city would in affect own the team for nine months in which they would be required to find a buyer. And if we couldn't in nine months find a buyer, then the team could be sold to another city. And so there I was, having run on crimes, jobs and taxes, now owning a baseball team. It really, literally when I was running in November, I had no idea that the first year of my time as mayor, two years, would be dominated by trying to figure out how to build a baseball park and a football stadium and a convention center. So, that's life, right? So, we had to figure it out, right?   Eve: [00:11:20] When the sun goes down, with Downtown as a backdrop, it's a very special place.   Tom: [00:11:27] Well, it's a, my favorite seat in PNC Park, regardless of what the team is doing, is that, at the very highest point in the left field stands, and because the view of the city at dusk like that is incredible.   Eve: [00:11:41] Was the Pittsburgh Development Fund the most important thing that you implemented? Were there the other programs or policies with very big impact?   Tom: [00:11:49] Well, what's the Development Fund gave us is, it gave us the ability to be, to be flexible. When I go to lots of cities, they would say, we'd love to do this, but we don't have any money. The money, for better, for worse, becomes a really important part of being able to pursue your dreams. And so the Development Fund was our money in the sense that we didn't have to look to the state or the federal government, you know, to wait for months or a year before you figure out whether you're going to get the money or not. We also, as you know, in the URA, people at the URA led by Mulu and Steve, were very entrepreneurial in understanding how they used tax increment financing and other federal and state sources, so it ... it was fairly typical, it might be true in your deal, your deals that you were doing, is that you were getting sources of money from 10 or 12 different sources. And what I have found is that's unusual in a lot of cities, that cities are not entrepreneurial like that, of understanding how you mix and match money to make a deal work. So, what I say, Eve, is it's really, it's really a market driven approach, is that basically you as a developer come and say, you know, I want to do this building, but this is what the bank is going to lend me, and there's this gap in financing, and if it's something we want to see happen, we being the city in this case, then we become your partner and figure out how to help finance it, whether it's our Development Fund or other sources.   Eve: [00:13:30] My experience with the Liberty Bank Building was very typical. I think I had 12 sources of financing.   Tom: [00:13:36] Yeh.   Eve: [00:13:36] Most of the URA money, which I'm really glad gets to be recycled. But Mulu was extremely entrepreneurial. He, first of all, he didn't quite trust me when we started ...   Tom: [00:13:36] Well, but you were a small developer at the time, right? With not a long track record. But with great ideas.   Eve: [00:14:05] There were really interesting meetings. I really became very fond of Mulu. So, but he, you know, his approach was, look, we have this amount of money. 300,000 dollars out of this pot of money, or whatever it was. And you need two million. Go away and think about how it might work. And so I would come back and I'd say, look, I could make it work if you took little interest payments for two years or, you know, whatever, whatever it was that made it to some sort of stabilized scenario. I learned a lot. And then, you know, things shifted very much, and I think the URA lost a lot of its funding in the mid-2000s and the banks got more skittish and it all changed, right?   Tom: [00:14:49] Well, it did and it didn't. I mean, I think the philosophy in the city changed and maybe ... so I was saying this about being market driven. Mulu met with you and you convinced him that the market was what it was, that without flexible public money that could defer interest or payments even for a few years, that that this deal was not going to happen, and we wanted it to happen, and so we would make the loan. The market has become much better in Pittsburgh, though. You were, you know, in my view, the early bird gets the worm in this case, in the case of your building, you were, you were the early bird. Is that you got better financing then maybe after the market's healthy. So, we tried to be market sensitive in that sense. And at the same time, recognize that we wanted these deals to happen, so we were willing to put, risk public money. I think the key to it, what I learned about myself in this, Eve, as I was, I am not a good day-to-day manager, but I understood how to hire good people and just give them room. And if a deal blew up, you know, that's what's going to get reported on the news. But I need to be willing to support the people if they did the deal for the right reasons and it just didn't work. And we had some of those done, you know, Fifth and Forbes Downtown was one of those examples. But we were willing to take those risks, whether it was with you or other developers, that we didn't know with the market, we didn't know if people would move and live on a slag dump in Squirrel Hill or, you know, live in apartments in South Side. We didn't know what the market was. We were way out there and that was the risk involved in this, and using public money.   Eve: [00:16:33] I moved to Pittsburgh accidentally and was kind of involved in all of this on the periphery, and it really shaped my life. The way I think about cities is very different now. So, thank you for that. The plan that did not work out was the redevelopment plan to reshape Downtown which...   Tom: [00:16:49] Actually it worked though didn't it? I mean, four of the five blocks that we were going to acquire have been redeveloped.   Eve: [00:16:57] Yes, it did work. But my question was, yeah, it just took time, didn't it? Took time for people to get used to the idea.   Tom: [00:17:04] Well, it looks differently than what we would have, I mean, we were more focused on a retail strategy and it might or might not have worked. I don't know.   Eve: [00:17:12] Well, today with Amazon, it might have backfired again.   Tom: [00:17:15] And that's where you don't, I don't know with today's retailing whether it would have worked or not. If we would have been able to put together sort of what we were thinking. But, in any case, all five blocks have now been redeveloped, that we focused on. And it's a much more vibrant place. We could see the decline there. I mean, we could look at the sales numbers of businesses that were there and just see the decline of what was going on, and I think felt the need to try to intervene, you know, and maybe did it really in a clumsy kind of way. And but, you know, at the end of the day, it was a necessary intervention that ended up working. PNC played a big part, was a big partner in that with their new building   Eve: [00:17:59] Yes. It was really difficult, I remember. What would you do differently today? A different city.   Tom: [00:18:06] When I've come to really love is the public spaces. So, in East Liberty, I think we would have had, we had the opportunity, which we didn't do, to create a sort of a central plaza somewhere there. That we could have really recreated a much more, you know, in a public space, it can be the most democratic place in the city. And so, I mean and so with Home Depot, we were looking to make a democratic place where people, wealthy people and poor people would all shop. If I had done East Liberty thoughtfully more, maybe we would have created a public space like that, too. And Market Square, in many ways, plays that role Downtown now. There's a public space where people of, with all incomes and all backgrounds show up. And so even in smaller neighborhoods like Lawrenceville and other places, because there were such, you know, abandonment of property, we had opportunities to really create better public spaces, little town squares. Because one of the strengths of Pittsburgh is with its 90 neighborhoods is, is that we have this real sense of communities and I've come to appreciate that much more. And we really would have focused more on creating places where that community can play out in neighborhoods like Lawrenceville and other places. I go to China a fair amount. Not recently. thank goodness. And when I, I get up early in the morning to go for a run and one of the things I see there, and China has done a very bad job of creating public spaces, but where there is public spaces like at six, seven o'clock in the morning, there are hundreds of people there in the plaza doing tai chi or dancing to a boombox. It's this great sense of community. There's lots of older people or people running. And you can see feel this community, I mean, people talking and laughing. Every morning they're there. And we don't have that tradition in America. But it would be wonderful. We did, but but we ought to create places where that happens. You know, the Blue Slide Playground is a place like that in Squirrel Hill. I mean, famous now because of Mac Miller.   Eve: [00:20:24] I visited Beijing three years ago, and the photo I loved the most from there is a small urban park which had exercise equipment in it. And in fact, I saw this several times ...   Tom: [00:20:34] Right.   Eve: [00:20:35] ... exercise equipment, really basic. And you could see people all congregating, and doing their little exercises in the park, open to everyone, It was fabulous.   Tom: [00:20:46] Right. We did a half step under Eloise's leadership in public works. We made a decision to rebuild all of our 100 and some neighborhood parks, like the Blue Slide Playground or the Schenley Park, and also many of the smaller ones. And we would have community meetings and we would hire landscape architects who would meet with the community and, you know, with the playbooks. And then they would work to design the kind of playground they wanted. They would given a budget, 100, 150 thousand dollars, and they could pick from the play equipment books, the playground they wanted. But the instinct we had was right, but we should have expanded it. And in many neighborhoods where, like Homewood. I mean, you have an opportunity in Homewood, still today, I think, to create a really great plaza that would become the center of Homewood, and how you would do that. And East Liberty represented that opportunity. I mean, there were, as you remember, lots of vacant land there that was tax, you know, essentially abandoned. So that's probably one of my bigger regrets, was not creating places where that sense of community can play out.   Eve: [00:21:58] What do you love most about Pittsburgh? I know you still live here.   Tom: [00:22:01] Our strength and our weakness is our parochialism and that's what I love most ... is that we're an unusually friendly city. I'm in Washington four days a week, right? And my habit in Pittsburgh is pretty much everybody you see, even before I was mayor, but when I'm mayor I don't know whether I know them or not, or they know me. So you say hello to people, right? You get on an elevator, you say good morning, right? People, you do that in Washington, D.C. people look at you like you're ... going to rob them. You know, it's a weird feeling for me. I see that in lots of cities. I would just did Orlando for a couple of days that I felt it there. Same thing, is that, sort of people don't make eye contact, don't acknowledge. I mean, if there was just two of you in a place, that you don't, they don't acknowledge you.   Eve: [00:22:50] You know, that's interesting. There are other cities like, I think Atlanta and Detroit are very friendly. I always notice it when I go there.   Tom: [00:22:56] Yeah. So it's, and I hear that. It's funny, I mean, when I speak, and I was in 50 cities last year, so I end up engaging with thousands of people. One, is the numbers of people that have lived in Pittsburgh. You know, I mean, that's sort of the legacy. I always say you're our failures. We couldn't give you a reason to stay, you know, there's so many people that left in the 70s and the 80s. And the other is inevitably people who are not from Pittsburgh. I just was talking to a guy in Orlando yesterday who, his daughter and he, and they've never had any connection with Pittsburgh, but she loves the Pittsburgh Penguins. And they go to Pittsburgh every year to see a couple of Penguins game, and he was telling me he's going in March and, you know, he said, I've never been to a friendlier place in my life. Everybody talks to you and it's just, it's a great place, right? We don't even think of that. And that's partly what I like. And I think that's the strength of Pittsburgh. When I say parochial is that we are really, those of us who are from Pittsburgh or who moved there, you become really rooted in your neighborhood, and in the city. I think in places like Orlando, that is, you know, a lot of Florida cities in California and even Texas cities. You know, there's lots of new residents. And so they don't have that kind of history. And so I, that's part of the challenge of Pittsburgh. How to keep that, and at the same time not have it be a deterrent to making Pittsburgh a competitive city.   Eve: [00:24:28] But you know, I think what's most interestingly Pittsburgh, about Pittsburgh to me, is again, I've always thought it's topography saved it from becoming what Detroit has become.   Tom: [00:24:40] Oh, I think definitely, I mean, the hills and valleys and how Pittsburgh is defined, I think is a large part because of its topography. You know, I learned that running for office when I was in the legislature, when I first ran for the legislature. If you confuse people from Spring Garden with people from Spring Hill, they will never vote for you. I mean, they're very rooted in their neighborhoods, right? And so there's that whole hierarchy like that around Pittsburgh. When I meet somebody, when they say they're from Pittsburgh, I typically say, where did you go to school? And that tells me a lot about them.   Eve: [00:25:19] Interesting. Yeah, I think the topography also, it kind of contains each neighborhood. So, I think that that sense of being in a neighborhood is going to stay.  I can't, I can't see it disappearing in the city.   Tom: [00:25:33] No, and that's what, when I was talking about the public space, I mean that's, that's what I have a big regret it was around that idea of how do you build even a stronger sense community using public space, whether it's playgrounds or a park, a community. How do you in a very thoughtful way connect people in that neighborhood so they feel a sense of place? And there's a purpose for that, because I think if people feel rooted in their neighborhood, I think they're willing to put up with a lot of problems if they see themselves and others committed to wanting to making it better. I mean, if I can see a light at the end of the tunnel, I'm willing to stay on the journey, right? A lot of people are not willing if they don't see any end to it. And I think of a neighborhood like Allentown that's been through a lot of problems. And yet, there's a strong core of people in Allentown who have really stayed with that neighborhood. And, you know, it has gone up and done and now I think it's back, going back up again. I know we used say, Eve, you know, that houses in the North Side up in Fineview at the time, I mean, you could buy for 30 or 40 thousand dollars. And we said if Pittsburgh's population were like any other city and it was growing, those houses would be worth a million dollars with the views. And that was part of the problem, is that we weren't growing as a city. And it's still part of the challenge of Pittsburgh, is that we're doing much better, but we're still not growing compared to, certainly the region is not, compared to a lot of other cities and communities.   Eve: [00:27:19] Today you work, you're a senior fellow at the Urban Land Institute, which some of my listeners may not know about. What do you do in your role there?   Tom: [00:27:32] So the Urban Land Institute is an organization founded about 75 years ago by a group of developers concerned about the quality of development beginning to happen in America. And fast forward, the Urban Land Institute now has about 50,000 members worldwide. And it really, it's focus is how do you create thriving communities? And ULI had participated in several programs in Pittsburgh when I was mayor, and then I got recruited to speak at different ULI events. And when I was leaving as mayor, it was right after Katrina in New Orleans and along the Mississippi coast. And they asked me whether I would go down and work with the mayor of New Orleans and with other public officials across the Mississippi coast. And so I did that for about a year and a half after leaving as mayor. And it was fascinating. I mean, it was really a fascinating experience. And, you know, in New Orleans, their mayor ended up going to jail for 15 years. And the political structure was really fairly inept back then. It's gotten better. And so I watched, really, New Orleans return in large part because of grassroots decisions and leadership, through churches and nonprofit groups and neighborhood groups, and a lot of outside help. Foundations and movie stars like Brad Pitt. But people, but ultimately, the up-swelling was really, really bottom up. It wasn't top down. And so it was a fascinating experience to work in, there. And I still am, I was on the board for many years of a community development corporation there. So it's been an experience. Since then I got to about 50 cities a year and speak at ULI events or other events, and then often end up working with cities for a while. And I've written several papers – working on one now for ULI.   Tom: [00:29:40] It's been a good, a good experience, really a great experience after being a mayor. And part of what I get asked to do all over the world is, in part I get asked to talk about Pittsburgh. How we went from this failing industrial city  to what we're becoming. And the reason I get asked by, about that is, wheat I've come to realize, Eve, is virtually every city in the world, whether it's Hong Kong or London or Dublin, or are all struggling with some of the same issues that we went through in Pittsburgh, of sort of what what is our place in the world? We were forced to have that conversation because of the collapse of the steel industry. Other cities have not had that kind of dramatic change, but they are seeing the world change and they are trying to figure out how to  stay current and get in front of those changes and manage them.   Eve: [00:30:34] Are there any current trends in real estate development that interest you the most?   [00:30:39] Well,every city, every place I've been, and this is, I mean, last month I was in Dublin and London, right. And I was supposed to go, I go to China about four times a year. I was supposed to be going in March. My plane trips are now all being canceled, but I was going to cancel anyhow. But so whether it's cities in China or European cities, affordability is a huge issue. Of how do people, where do people live? And how do they afford to live? And so how cities develop affordable housing is a big, big issue. Where am I going to work? Because of the impact of technology and we see it in Pittsburgh up close every day as we see a whole litany of driverless cars on the streets of Pittsburgh or autonomous vehicles with attendants in them. But, you know, pretty soon the attendance won't be there. As I mentioned, I was in Orlando yesterday, just east of Downtown Orlando but still in Orlando is a place called Lake Nona. And they now have, I don't know, a half a dozen driverless autonomous buses that drive people around this very large development. Nobody driving. Nobody in, no driver. And no attendant. It is just on its own already on a sort of a, sort of private street where bikes and others places can go, but not cars. So we're seeing this happen and what does that mean? I mean, if you think of 50 percent of the land use of a typical city is for cars, between roads and parking and everything like that, what does that do to how we think about cities. And not it's not even that kind of technology. It's why do young people want to come places? Part of what I say is what does General Electric and McDonald's and Marriott and Fifth Third Bank and Heinz Kraft Foods and what they have in common is over the last five years they've all moved their headquarters from suburban office parks into cities. And why are they doing that? They're doing it because ... they're having a hard time recruiting talent, young people, to move to the suburban office park. Where you need a car to get to. You know, if you do a survey of the Google employees in East Liberty, I'm betting that 25, 30 percent of them either walk or ride a bike to work. So that has huge implications on cities. You know, do you spend your money building more highways or do you build a transit system. That's part of Orlando's challenge. They don't have a good transit system and now they're  strangling, you know, because of the congestion.   Eve: [00:33:33] Yeah. It's changing.   [00:33:34] So it's those debates that I'm watching all over. Mobility is a huge conversation. The equity conversation, I mean, one of the things I see really fascinating, The New York Times did this, I thought, very cruelly. A few months ago they did an article about cities and they talked about winners and losers.   Eve: [00:33:56] Yes.   Tom: [00:33:56] And they talked, and they compared Nashville and Birmingham. And they said Nashville is a winner, they both start at the same place 25 years ago. Nashville is now a hot city, booming, and Birmingham is not. And they talk about, why, how that happens is really a lot to do with leadership. And then within, so we're seeing cities sort of separate themselves, if you understand, those that are, where Amazon is going to consider locating, and those that are not. And what are the ingredients that make that cut? And then the other, within cities we are watching a huge divide with lower income people and the people that are sort of part of the new economy. And so, I think that equity issue is a huge challenge for cities also.   Eve: [00:34:43] Yes. You know, I have always thought that one of the things that's most overlooked in discussions about cities and how to grow them is their connection to other cities. And, you know, I think that's probably Pittsburgh's growth problem. It takes a really long time go by train.   Tom: [00:35:00] Well, we lost a whole generation of people that would normally be having babies.   Eve: [00:35:07] If you want to get to New York by train, it's a day. There's no easy, fast way to get to work hubs. We're sort of a little bit stranded. And I was always puzzled by the fact that we, you know, people would talk about better transit in the city, but I wanted better transit to other places, nearby, to open up opportunities. If I wanted to do a development project in a city, I wanted to be able to get there in a day in and back. Right?   Tom: [00:35:37] Right.   Eve: [00:35:37] So I, you know, I wonder if you plot out those connections, you know, where the, you know, the cities done well, will land.   [00:35:49] I think it's a mix. I think mobility is one piece of the conversation of how easy it is to move around a city. Our son, for example, is now 29 years old, does not even have a driver's license. He lives in Pittsburgh. On the North Side right now with us, he's moving, though. You know, he is, has been able to manage fine living in Pittsburgh, using Uber and using public transit and, you know, walking a host of other things and abusing his friends every once while they're able to, you know, he's able to sort of manage living in a city pretty well. But I think mobility is part of the conversation. And that's what, when I was becoming mayor, Eve, our focus was we need to figure out how to create a diversity of jobs. And we needed to make Pittsburgh a place where people wanted to live. You know, we're never going to be, maybe we will someday, we're never going to be a warm city. Like I was just in Orlando yesterday. It was 90 degrees. We're not going to be near the ocean, but we had other assets. And so, as you might remember, I was very focused on building riverfront trails for that reason is that was an underutilized asset. You know, we watched, you know, a great music and bar scene sort of, and that happened organically. It's funny, I watch the, I read the media in Pittsburgh now about the Strip District and we made a very intentional decision not to do anything in the Strip District. We, you know, people would come and why don't we do this and why don't we do that in the Strip District.tAnd we really said The place is working really well. Why do we want to get involved in it? Let it, it's just happening on its own. So. You know, that it's interesting that that's the big, big debate right now in Pittsburgh, I guess about, are we killing the Strip District. So I think that you make decisions, you know, some of them are going to be right. Some of them were wrong. Hindsight will tell you whether it works or not.   Eve: [00:37:56] You know, this show is about real estate impact investing. And I want to know what you think a key factor is that makes a real estate development project impactful.   Tom: [00:38:06] You know, I think it's the public space. Is the building itself attractive, but it's the space around it, how it engages people that work in that building, and even people walking by, how they might use it. I think that, how it all connects. And you can get senses of it, right? When it works well? I think, you know, there are places in Pittsburgh that I think of that are just great places to be. People like to be there, right? I look at Mellon Park, you know, going back many, many years, long before I was mayor. Still a very iconic place on a nice summer day. It's packed with people, having lunch. And I think how that happens, and that's where the public private interface is so importantA and where the public needs to have, to be put money in the game, to say to a developer, you know, we want to get this quality in, and a developer might say, but I can't afford to do that. And if you look at the books and the market is going to be make it hard for the developer to do that, then there's a public role for that. I think another good example is that is Schenley Plaza, which for for 40 years or 50 years was a parking lot. I mean, think about that. I mean, I, you know, on one side is Schenley Park, on the other side are the museums, on the other side is the Pitt law school. And then on the other side, the Cathedral of Learning. And what is the highest and best use of that land for 50 years? It was surface parking. And Mark, this chancellor at Pitt and I got together and said we should be, we should do better than that. And so we work with the Parks Conservancy and came up with an idea to put a park there, to take the parking. And I got all this hate mail, but I'm never going to vote for you again. You're taking away my parking place. And I said, you know, you'll get over it. There'll be other places to park it. But this is, this, we can do better than that is the interest of a great university. To a great park. To a great museum. We can do better than that. And you look at that on a nice summer day, it's filled with people. So creating those kinds of places, I think is is that there's a responsibility of both the developer and the community. You know, you did something quirky Downtown with those statues. And I bet lots of people walk over, who maybe have never been in Pittsburgh, walk over just to look at them.   Eve: [00:40:58] Yes. In fact, I think the taxi drivers use it for directions when someone says, I want to go Downtown.   Tom: [00:41:05] Yeah. So that's what I mean. And look at Randyland on the North side.   Eve: [00:41:10] It's fabulous. Yeah.   Tom: [00:41:12] You know, I mean, it's just things like that make a cityS so the other word that we use a lot in ULI is authenticity, right? Pittsburgh has a great history. It has a great story. And we could still do better at telling that story. The South Side Works, when we started to develop that we put, had a competition for, and we brought artists and old steel workers who worked there together for like a morning of talking. And then we had a competition for artists. And there's, at the end of Hot Metal Bridge is a little monument that we established for the steelworkers. But Pittsburgh is an incredible story.   Eve: [00:41:56] So I'm going to ask one last question, because I've taken up a lot of your time.   Tom: [00:42:00] It's fine, I've enjoyed it. It's fun to talk to somebody who actually knows Pittsburgh, Eve.   Eve: [00:42:05] So is there something that you think could really change real estate development in the U.S., for the better?   Tom: [00:42:14] I think it is, is the idea, the partnership idea. I'm amazed that the cities I go to, many developers attitude is I want a minimize my involvement with the city. Maybe there's a reason for it. I want to get in and get out. I want to get the entitlements, whatever I may need and do what I want to do. So the challenge is the developer has a piece of property. The developer needs to figure out how to make money from that property. I accept that. I want the developer to make money from the property. On the other hand, the city, the city has the responsibility to build a great city. That it will never be a great city if these developers see their development as sort of an island disconnected from what's next to it. And so the city's responsibility is to figure out how that all fits together. Give you two examples that drive me nuts. I can drive on pretty much any suburban shopping street. I can go into a gas station. Maybe I want to go to the store next door. And I have to drive back out onto the highway. Or maybe I want to go to a store across the street, I have to go out on the highway. Maybe I have to drive a half a mile to get over there to the other side. So I can't, there's no sense of connection between any of that. And the other is, I watch in suburban areas like Cranberry Township subdivisions being developed of 100 acres or so. What would it take for those subdivisions that, maybe there's five different developers doing one hundred acres each, if they would, then the city's role would be to say we want to connect all this with a bike trail at the edge of your property so that every, so now instead of having a couple little playgrounds, you might have a five or ten mile bike ride, safe, off road. You don't have to worry about traffic with your little children. And there is examples of where the public fails. Both the public and private developers fail. Because you create great, great amenities if you begin to think in a bigger way rather than individual pieces of property. That's what's destroying development, and quality in America today.   Eve: [00:44:33] Yeah, I agree, I think we both believe that real estate development, just as a financial tool, as a way to make money, isn't making our cities better.   Tom: [00:44:43] Well, I think you make more money if you build quality. In the long run I think your development is more valuable. I mean, we didn't get into all the other sustainability and all that which a lot of cities are facing.   Eve: [00:44:54] Thank you very much.   Tom: [00:44:55] Look forward to see you sometime. Bye bye.   Eve: [00:45:04] That was Tom Murphy, past mayor of Pittsburgh. Tom thinks place is everything, so place is what he invested in during his long term as mayor. He did that by reducing operational costs and creating the Pittsburgh Development Fund, a $60 million fund focused on helping developers who were willing to work in places and on projects that made the city better and better. It was a very bold, and unpopular move, but paid off in ways that no one imagined, as did many other moves that Mayor Murphy made.   You can find out more about impact real estate investing and access the show notes for today's episode at my website, EvePicker.com. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter to find out more about how to make money in real estate while building better cities. Thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And thank you, Tom, for sharing your thoughts. We'll talk again soon. But for now, this is Eve Picker signing off to go make some change.

Dusted off and brought up from the AMT cellars for an airing, it's retro AMT96, featuring judges' wigs, newsreaders' desks, and jury service. This episode originally appeared at on 21 May 2009. The retro episodes are in your feed for one month only, but to keep them forever, buy episodes 1-200 from . There'll be an all-new episode of AMT on the first Thursday of the month. Send us questions to answer: email written words or voice memos to answermethispodcast@googlemail.com. Tweet us http://twitter.com/helenandolly Facebook http://facebook.com/answermethis Subscribe on Apple Podcasts  Hear Helen Zaltzman's podcasts The Allusionist at  and Veronica Mars Investigations at , Olly Mann's The Modern Mann at  and his many other podcasts at , and Martin Austwick's Song By Song at . This episode is sponsored by Squarespace. Want to build a website? Go to , and get a 10% discount on your first purchase of a website or domain with the code 'answer'.

After the holidays have come and gone, you might find yourself surrounded by fruitcake. What's a person to do? Why not head outdoors and try throwing it as far as you can?That's what they do every year in Manitou Springs, Colorado, where they have thrown fruitcakes for the past 24 years. We talked with Jenna Gallas from the Chamber of Commerce about the annual tradition, how it got started and, more importantly, where they get their fruitcakes from.This year's event is being held this Saturday, January 25th from noon to 2:30. There'll be costume contests, a bake off, and, of course, the fruitcake feats of strength. For more information, check out their website.Enjoy this special bonus episode of the show and we'll be back on Monday with more Why!

WeThreeQueens are back and we're putting a little extra something in this season(ing) of the #FishTeaPodcast. To begin, we're taking stock. We'll be taking a look back at the past decade to see how things have changed as it relates to LGBTQ politics in the Caribbean. There'll be some predictions too, of course. At least one queen thinks we're in the #DecadeoftheBatty. Find out more at https://fishtea-podcast.pinecast.co

SPACE! The final space! A wacky new animated comedy is the topic of discussion this week. There'll be laughs, there'll be tears, and there'll certainly be nonsense. Welcome an all new guest and let's get stuck in!   

WeThreeQueens are back and we're putting a little extra something in this season(ing) of the #FishTeaPodcast. To begin, we're taking stock. We'll be taking a look back at the past decade to see how things have changed as it relates to LGBTQ politics in the Caribbean. There'll be some predictions too, of course. At least one queen thinks we're in the #DecadeoftheBatty. Find out more at https://fishtea-podcast.pinecast.co

Ending off the year with a blast! Well at least I had one recording this crossover episode with the ladies from Potty Mouth Poopcast! Sarah does double duty. We break down Nepal vs Naples, why women love true crime so much and reveal some of our New Year's resolutions, if we made any at all! In the game segment that starts at 30:05 we play a really weird game of 2 truths, 1 lie. There'll be broken bones, mystery tattoos, and dead frogs... or maybe not. https://www.instagram.com/bswithbspodcast/https://twitter.com/bswithbspodcast/----------------------https://www.instagram.com/pottymouthpoopcast/

It continues! Thanks to heroic efforts by the crowd-writing team, Nick Knowles' steamy, and edge-of-the-seat exploits are extended far beyond an appropriate length. Tuck in! There'll be more tomorrow. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Not a dream! Not a hallucination! Not an imaginary story! Reid goes to prison at the behest of being charged with murdering what looks to be a Mexican citizen and having a huge cache of drugs in his truck. Can the BAU bail him out and get him on a plane back to the States? Considering this is the start of a storyline, the chances of everything going right are very little. The point is to enjoy the non-sequential journey of Deliver The Profile's look at the 10 part Reid in prison storyline. There'll be plenty of rape jokes, don't you worry.

"There'll be scary ghost stories and tales of the glories of Christmases long, long ago..."

The S&P 500 tops 3,200 for the first time ever as U.S. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin tells CNBC that ‘phase one’ of the trade deal with Beijing will be inked in early January. There'll be a new boss at Threadneedle Street. The FCA's Andrew Bailey is set to take over from Mark Carney as the Bank of England governor from February. We hear exclusively from the new European Union economy chief, Paolo Gentiloni, who tells this channel that monetary policy alone won’t be enough to move the bloc out of the doldrums. And in Washington, President Trump demands a speedy Senate impeachment process but looks to be frustrated by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi who intends to push the GOP to meet Democrat procedural demands.

"One thing I love about sports is the one who wants it the worst usually wins, especially in team sports. It's not so much about how fast and strong an athlete is, but in a team sport especially, it all depends upon the heart. " Family Discussions: Which of Jesus is signs of his coming you observed recently? What does he mean when he says keep on the alert because you don't know the day that I'm going to come back? How can your family better pull together as a team to defeat the enemies that are all around you? Transcription: 00:13          Hey, today I want to tell you about the greatest award ceremony that you'll ever be. The trophy of trophies. We're going to be reading from Mark chapter 13 and we're going to start with verse eight. Jesus is talking about the signs, the birth pains, if you will. The signs that will be proceeding the second coming of Christ to planet earth. In verse eight he says, "for nation will rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom. There'll be earthquakes in various places." So the world's going to be at war, especially in the area of the middle East. And in verse 10, he says, "the gospel of the kingdom must be preached to the whole world." And then we go, uh, skipping to verse 13, he says, "you Christians will be hated by all nations because of my name, but the one who endures to the end will be saved." And then in verse 22, he says, "for false Christ and false prophets will arise and will show signs and wonders if possible, even to lead astray the elect." They are the Christians. And then finally in verse 33 he says, "Take heed. Keep on the alert. For you do not know when the appointed time comes."   01:24          I'm telling you folks, one thing I love about sports is the one who wants it the worst usually wins, especially in team sports. It's not so much about how fast and strong an athlete is, but in a team sport especially, it all depends upon the heart. And Jesus is saying, man, if you want it bad enough, if you want the love of Christ, if you want to live for Christ bad enough, then the trophy is going to be yours. Are we living in the last days? Well, there's a lot of us who believe that we sure can be. As these prophecies come true all around us. You see the gospel going out the whole world. You see the whole world literally fighting each other over everything, especially in the middle East. You see the terms where the supernatural, the sayans, Satan worship, demon possession, wiji boards, Dungeons and dragons. Movies in their cult everywhere.   02:12          You know, you see Christians persecuted and I'll say this, I am the proudest of the of the young generation, the high school kids and college kids that I get to work with. I've never seen a bunch of heroes like you before in my life. Guys and girls who are willing to go to school with their Bibles. They witness and willing to write papers on creation and intelligent design even when they get ridiculed in their classes, oftentimes are in the hallways for, for wearing crosses and living for Christ. But I will tell you this, the one who overcomes is going to win the prize. So don't lose heart. When he sees you, He'll say, 'well done now, good and faithful servant.'   02:54          Here's the questions for today. Which of Jesus is signs of his coming you observed recently? And then what does he mean when he says keep on the alert because you don't know the day that I'm going to come back. And then lastly, this is great. How can your family better pull together as a team to defeat the enemies that are all around you? And then here's the thought for the day. You know, groups of individuals often lose tough contests, but a team that's united, a team that's focused, a team that's full of heart are almost impossible to defeat, make your family a team like that today.

Hi, we are trying something new this week. We are including whole transcription in the show notes. This time we used machine transcription and it got a little messy. Next time we will do better. Enjoy! Brad: 00:26 I'm Brad from anchor advisors. Jill from the founding moms. And today we're talking about how do you go about raising prices for your services. We've been talking about raising prices in general. Yeah. And today we're going to get into the nitty gritty. That doesn't sound fun, but before we do that, Joe. Okay. All right. Let's just put ourselves in a frame of mind here. Let's, let's get into a mood. So let's say that you're sitting down with a client, Hey, is this a romantic mood? Let's do you have romantic modes with your yes. Mood. We're getting home to, we're getting into the mood raising prices. Oh, got it. So you're seeing that with a client and you're about to tell them that this thing that you've been doing for them for like $4,000 now it's going to cost them $5,000 okay. How are you feeling? Jill: 01:13 What's going on inside you? I should tell you, you didn't raise your prices enough, but you, you mean me? The client? No, I mean you the, if you're, if you're, I'm the one member, this news to the client. Oh, extremely fearful. Fearful, extremely fearful that they'll say so what kind of Iran? Oh, so you think they're just going to drop you like a hot potato? Yeah, of course. That's, that's the reality of my mind. That's not the reality of the [inaudible]. So, so your expectation, the thing that's most likely to happen in your mind is they're going to fire me. Something bad will happen. Something bad. There'll be upset at least. Yes. Yeah. Interesting. And so, so when you're feeling that way, what did you think? I was going to say? I'm just listening. I'm trying to be with you here. Okay. So when you're feeling that way, how confident do you think you come across?

Life is never smooth sailing. There'll be ups and downs. In sports those downs are called adversities. One thing is guaranteed in sports, those adversities would come. How you prepare for them determines how far you'll go in your career. On this episode, i try to prepare you as much as I can by breaking down 5 different adversities you'll likely face in your career. If you find this episode helpful, share it with a fellow athlete to help them on their quest to achieve their sports goals. There are a ton of podcasts you could listening to right now but you chose Athlete Maestro. What should I talk about next? Please let me know on twitter or in the comments below Subscribe for FREE lessons on Itunes: athletemaestro.com/itunes If you found anything useful on the podcast, please leave a RATING AND REVIEW so other young athletes like yourself can find and benefit from the podcast. To learn how to SUBSCRIBE AND LEAVE A RATING on the show, head to www.athletemaestro.com/subscribe. For more on Athlete Maestro visit athletemaestro.com If you have any questions, feel free to send an email tola@athletemaestro.com Get the Athlete Maestro Daily Planner, www.athletemaestro.com/dailyplanner Find me on social media Instagram - @tolaogunlewe Twitter - @tolaogunlewe Thanks for tuning in.

Why is STEM so important in Michigan right now? Because Michigan businesses need STEM educated workers and currently those workers are not available. Businesses struggle to understand why it appears public education is not producing the workforce they need, while educators are attempting to teach kids collaboration, creative thinking and other 21st Century Skills, while navigating another legislative edict, state standards, and school district goals. Our guest Drea Weiner from MiSTEM is attempting to repair that disconnect, and helping to make education applicable to a real world setting by fitting STEM into the curriculum to meet the needs that businesses are desperately crying out for.Elementary is Engineering WorkshopNovember 26thTCAPS Sabin Data Center Acronym ListMiSTEM - Michigan Science, Technology, Engineering and Math NetworkTBAISD - Traverse Bay Intermediate School DistrictCHAREMISD - Charelvoix - Emmet Intermediate School DistrictELA - English Language ArtsREMC - Regional Education Materials CenterMETS - Michigan Education Technology SpecialistsEVR - Experience Verification RouteEIE - Elementary is EngineeringREMC RITS - REMC Instructional Technology SpecialistsSEL - Social Emotional LearningDigCit - Digital Citizenship  Full Transcript:Drea Weiner 0:02 I'm pretending like I know what I'm doing but I don't actually know what I'm doing most days.Larry Burden 0:11 The most important thing we can teach our kids is to recognize that everybody's just winging it.Drea Weiner 0:15 Because you need to integrate that with your content.Larry Burden 0:19 I want to do that. That looks like more fun.Larry Burden 0:26 It's Episode 97 of the EdTechLoop podcast. My name is Larry Burden and she's been attempting to 3D print snow tires for her Hyundai Elantra, it's Danelle Brostrom, and we are also joined by Northern Michigan Sensei of STEM, it's Drea Weiner. Multiple snow days have allowed for additional time to meditate on this week's moment of Zen.Moment of Zen 0:47 To appreciate the beauty of a snowflake. It is necessary to stand out in the cold.Larry Burden 0:52 After several field attempts to brave the icy roads we've decided to stay home and fabricate this week's meat of the show. STEM heats up in Northern Michigan.Danelle Brostrom 1:03 I wasn't ready for any of that Larry.Larry Burden 1:03 I worked really hard to come up with a title.Danelle Brostrom 1:03 It took you all week to write, didn't it?Larry Burden 1:04 So I worked...Larry Burden 1:10 Naw, about the last 15 minutes. Come on, there's no prep here. Okay, so thank you for joining us Drea, because I know your schedule is crazy. We've got tons of questions about what you do and what's happening with STEM in northern Michigan. I don't think we've actually covered a lot of STEM so far this year now so fill us in.Drea Weiner 1:34 First one in. So yeah, so I'm the Regional Director for the MiSTEM network, and the MiSTEM network is a statewide effort to make sure that there's a cross curricular look at science, technology, engineering and mathematics, are we teaching those areas, are we teaching them in an integrated way, are we teaching them in a way that prepare our students for life beyond school, are we teaching them in a way that's applicable to the workforce. So that's kind of MiSTEM network, in a nutshell. I can talk to you about that for like hours on end but we'll, we'll end on that particular note.Larry Burden 2:07 go ahead, you've got questions galore. Don't wait for me to just jump right in.Danelle Brostrom 2:11 No, I'm just curious about the connection with business, you know and typically in schools we think about how, how we're teaching these skills, kind of on our own. Can you talk to me about the connection with business, why is that important?Drea Weiner 2:22 So I would say that this is important because right now in Michigan, businesses do not want to engage, they do not want to invest in education. They do not understand the importance of engaging in education because they're having to do a lot of apprenticeships, a lot of workforce, work based learning within their own house because kids do not have the skill sets and which they need, and that's everything that's been expressed for me, like kids cannot problem solve, kids cannot critically think, they're not showing up on time, they don't have basic mathematics skills, they don't understand taxes which is, I don't know if I always fully understand taxes to be completely honest, but like having to sit down and explain, like here's the math on how you budget out your life because we do withhold your taxes from, from this end of things. So, from the business end of things they're just like we, we don't understand, you're not giving us what we need. Now from the educator side of things, here really like we're in charge of these kids from eight until three or whatever your school day is and like we're teaching your kids collaboration, and how to talk to each other, and here's the content that we're teaching in them, and here's like another legislative edict, and here's what our school districts coming from and, like, there's all these different components from a teacher's perspective over what they're having to do as well. And there's a disconnect between why a kid has to learn fractions in elementary school and like how that actually gets applied in the workforce, because Danielle you and I've worked with 3D printing and looking at decimal places, and so, for engineers when they're creating prototypes, if something's off by a fraction, you need to want to understand what that fraction is and two, understand like, if your material shrink by 1%, how do you change that to make sure that like, your materials don't shrink, and that your prototype is actually fitting when it's supposed to fit. And that's, and that's really the disconnect that we're trying to close with like how is your education applicable to a real world setting as well, and fitting that need that businesses are desperately crying out for because there are some people that will hire you for $60,000 on the floor in a manufacturing plant, and I'm pretty sure that's not the entry level of a teacher. So, like how do, we how do we make sure that kids can also get jobs, and stay in your communities, and be able to contribute to the economy. Once again, that's another like huge...Danelle Brostrom 4:46 But this is such an important thing but it's a large task Drea. How are you, how are you getting started with this and how is the MiSTEM network finding a place where they can connect businesses and educators.Drea Weiner 4:58 Yeah, so part of that is right now I'm doing a needs assessment of the whole region. So I covered TBAISD and I cover CHAREMISD. And so it's everything from looking at assessment scores, looking at what are the needs of the teachers have expressed to me, it's looking at the workforce data over what's projected to grow in the next 10 years. It's looking at, okay so if I'm going out and meeting with companies, what are the top five things coming up, like bubbling up through those conversations. Trying to figure out where these needs, and what's being discussed, and like how do those align. And it is a huge task, and I'm not in any way shape or form getting it right, right off the bat, but it's kind of one of those things that like how do I make sure that we're building in that iterative process of like, okay so, last year I've heard a lot of teachers needing like, I need help for supplies first because science is more expensive than an ELA project in your classroom. I need help. And I was just like, okay, I'll figure out how I can help you. Well, now that we're there, how do we, how do we move forward with like what is this cross curricular component look like, who's actually doing it in your classrooms, or who's, who's trying to do it but just needs help, who are the resources like yourself to reach out to, how do we get the workshops, like code.org and CS Fundamentals to the areas that need them. Like it's, a it's a lot and it requires a lot of people to bring to the table. It requires us to look at how we're currently using our resources, because my, my grant dollars and my dollars come from the state are meant to be generative and so, who else can I get to the table, in order to have an event or not even just an event, to have a program. And some of its, you know, here's how the ISD and I partner, because they are my fiscal. And here's how a business can come to the table and like, you know what I want an intern, and I'm like, great, which teachers have students that can actually, that are ready for an internship. Because that's part of it as well, the bringing people a table and let's talk about what these needs are saying.Danelle Brostrom 7:01 And you said there's a whole network throughout Michigan of people just like you so if listeners aren't local to the TBAISD or CHAREM area, they, how would they find their MiSTEM person so they could learn more about this.Drea Weiner 7:15 So I would go to michigan.gov/MiSTEM. You will be able to find your director there. And then part of its also reaching out to the other net, networks like REMC, like METS, the Math and Science Center Network etc.. Trying to figure out like, okay, so who are the, who are the people that I can connect with. I would start with the MiSTEM state site for, how do I connect with you.Danelle Brostrom 7:39 The workforce wants these specific set of skills. Why is STEM the vehicle to get our kids there.Drea Weiner 7:46 I would say, because it allows for a way that shows students how learning can be cross curricular and it shows how it can be applicable. So if you're working with, oh, I'm going to fall back on manufacturing because it's my experience. If a manufacturer for example wants an intern, they're going to go look for a student that has engineering experience, they're going to go look for a student that has solid science experience, they're going to look for a student whose teachers going to say, yeah, this kid shows up on time, apologizes when they don't show up on time, has the basic mathematics skills in order to push them forward, they asked for help, that was a huge one that's been coming up lately. You know, wide variety of my conversations of like, the kids, these kids know how to ask for help. And I would say STEM, like, a lot of the careers moving forward, are based in those four arenas. And like, more and more the workforce is working from home, you've got telecommuting going on. We actually have a really strong Computer Science Programmer base here in Traverse City that most people don't know about because they're all working from home. Yeah, if you're a homebody and you like to work from home and you've got solid, computer science skills like, people in New York City would rather hire someone from Traverse City than someone who lives in New York because it's a fraction of the price, and it's pretty competitive. Or go to the co-op if you do need to work with people. So that's another skill set that I don't think many teachers are aware of because most people don't realize, I won't say most people, I would say people who traditionally have to show up at a space for work, um, don't fully understand what it means to work from home. So if you're a kid that can't do an online course, like you have to have a lot of self regulation skills to be able to work from home. Because like, there are days where I work from home and it's great. I get to sit down and actually focus on what's going on. There are days where I'm just too distracted by how cute my cats are, and I have to go into the office because I will get nothing done. So that's, that's another example of the disconnect.Larry Burden 9:48 You mentioned teachers a lot.Drea Weiner 9:50 Yeah,Larry Burden 9:50 And a concern that I have, or a question that I have is, is it teachers to MiSTEM, or is it District to MiSTEM? It seems like we're asking a teacher to do a lot,Drea Weiner 10:04 Yeah,Larry Burden 10:04 without support from the District, and it's such a large thing that we're asking them to do, I mean we're basically asking them to to look at their curriculum and figure out ways to fit, fit STEM in. It doesn't seem like that should necessarily be the teachers, I mean, it really doesn't seem like it should be the teacher's job or all on the teacher. It seems like the District should be supporting the teacher in their curriculum to allow for something as important as STEM to be embedded in what they do every day. It should just be there. How are we having those conversations.Drea Weiner 10:39 Yeah, so I'm really, Yeah, I'm really glad that you brought that up because that is another layer of the MiSTEM network of looking at how do we talk with our district, districts. Because it should, in my opinion, it's got to be both. You have to have those gorilla educator teachers who, who are doing this regardless. Who's like, this look ,this work...Larry Burden 10:56 Pushing it forward.Drea Weiner 10:56 Pushing it forward, especially for an administrator who didn't teach that way. I've seen EVR I've been talking to people about CPM, Classroom Makers, over like a lot of that, students will show you their learning, how do you stop talking at the kids and help guide them through their learning. And that's an evolution from where some people were in the classroom you know maybe 20 years ago. And so, the, there's the flip side of that like okay, how does the district move forward with the research of what good learning looks like, and how do they support the teachers that way as well. And so that's a, that's another conversation and sometimes it's packing people up in the car and going to a school where they're doing that. And sometimes it's, you know, bringing people to the table or having business and education just sit at the same table and talk about what that means, and sometimes it's a district administrator, sometimes it's a principal, sometimes it's a teacher. So, yeah, that is a lot to ask teachers, and in no way shape or form do I expect every teacher to be like, yeah, let's go for this and like, if you don't have the support of your admin you're either one, not going to do it right, two not do it all, or three, do it but also have a really uphill battle.Larry Burden 12:09 The resources end up, I mean we've seen it so many times in the classroom, a teacher has a great idea, or wants to pursue this, and the energy, the time, the resources, run out, or they move.Drea Weiner 12:24 Yeah.Larry Burden 12:24 So something happens at this one school and it's getting some traction but then the teacher gets moved to x school and then...Drea Weiner 12:31 it's gone, because they take it to that school, yeah.Larry Burden 12:34 And it's hard to get any real traction if it's not, kind of, site or District based. And I've just seen it too many times where they have that STEM classroom, and it's dedicated, and it's all good and then next year it's a closet.Drea Weiner 12:49 Yeah, and I would say like from my vision, my personal one, I wouldn't say this is necessarily the whole MiSTEM networks vision, is that every teacher is comfortable with STEM. Like, long term, years down the road, like anyone is comfortable, like here's where, you know what we're going to do a literature and science lesson, and we're going to time together today, because I think everyone needs those skills, but until you have people from the administrative side of things and the teachers working together in that space, it's, it's going to be frustrating. And it's going, it's going to continue with teachers popping around and kids either getting it or not getting it depending on where that teacher, or helpful administrator is so.Larry Burden 13:29 So there's a thing that's happening that maybe administrators and teachers should maybe get involved in. Isn't there like a workshop coming up.Drea Weiner 13:35 Oh yeah, we've got our Elementary is Engineering Workshop, coming up pretty quickly here, which by the way you get a free Elementary is Engineering kit, if you decide to attend.Larry Burden 13:46 Plug away.Drea Weiner 13:47 Yeah.Drea Weiner 13:48 So Heidi Skodeck is the one who's running the workshop for us, and she's been fantastic in helping me plan this, and it's been a long time coming. And so, here's a way that, here's a program that looks at how do you apply engineering in an elementary classroom. It's all tied to a story about a something related to other solar ovens, or building bridges or, I think designing circuits. So if you, if you do circuits with your kiddos, or you, or if you've designed solar ovens with your kiddos before just here's another way that you can do it that's also ties back to some of your standards and, you know, Heidi Skodeck your STEM person is on board for this, so like you know you're going to get some level of support in addition to, you're going to walk away with, you get to choose from one of those three kits to have that go back in your classroom. And I know, that you guys have the materials in your Elementary Materials Center to check out more kits, if you decide that you really like Elementary is Engineering.Larry Burden 14:46 I think this is a great model for this. So we have the MiSTEM network partnering with our, a District administrator, working with district resources to support teachers.Drea Weiner 14:56 And MiSTEM resources as well, yeah.Larry Burden 14:58 Exactly.Drea Weiner 14:58 And that's kind of, that's kind of what this is supposed to do, is like, the one kit that you get to take home back and keep your classroom, like that's technically coming out of my funds. There'll be a sticker on it but overall I don't care. There's more resources back in your Elementary Material Center that you guys can just check out, and that you don't have to worry about how am I going to replenish this kit once I use all the consumables because you have the Center for that.Danelle Brostrom 15:18 I will say to, kudos for choosing that program because I think the Engineering is Elementary kit and their philosophy is phenomenal. It is top notch for kids, and I also think it's great for, you know you mentioned educators that have built solar ovens before and want something different, I think it's great for the educator who has no clue what they're doing and it's just excited about trying to help kids learn.Larry Burden 15:39 Yeah.Danelle Brostrom 15:39 It's very easy to get into.Drea Weiner 15:41 Yeah. And honestly, so how I'm structured is that there's me and then I have an advisory council from the local level. And I have an education subcommittee of that and so Heidi sits on that board, Annette Cole that's on that committee, but then Shelly VanderMeulan, who used to work in your Elementary Material Center sit's on it. Michael George sits on it. We've got someone from CHAREM and the NMLC group that sits on it. And then we've got a teacher from Greenspire who sits on it too. So here's our education resource within the committee and like they're the ones who actually self identified that because they recognize that we're not doing a lot of engineering or science at the elementary level, and they're just like you know what we've used this before and it's a pretty easy entry toward, that's not scary for teachers to use.Larry Burden 16:27 Give us the details for the Workshop.Drea Weiner 16:28 OK, so the Workshop, you can register on our MiSTEM page for the local one. So my local link is MiSTEM.tbaisd.org. And TBA my fiscal so, what, I service many organizations, but they are my fiscal so the their name gets in the URL right now. And so you go under, Educators, there's a whole resource for you, for you guys that lists out any workshops that's going to be popping up in the area. And you would go, the registration link is there. If you are struggling with your administrator for sub costs, what you would be able to do though is that we actually have a Teacher Professional Learning Scholarship that you can apply for, and be like, oh, okay, great, you know what, you're willing to cover my sub costs, great, if you're not from within TCAPS and, like, then you're starting to get the argument over, well the drive to Northport, we don't know if we can, like pay your gas, or your mileage, or what happens if a snowstorm happens. You can also apply for that, for that scholarship as well and we'll pay your mileage and whatnot. And that's not just for this workshop, that's for any workshop or conference. If you want to go to MACUL let us know, we're going to do a carpool down there, I'm sure. But like, that, that's what that scholarship is for is to make sure that you guys can attend this workshop. The workshop itself is November 26. We need you to register as soon as possible. It will be first come first serve so I'll let you guys know when it is full. I will feed you so you don't walk away hungry that day. The rest is all on Heidi. Like she's, she's going to be the one leading you guys through it.Danelle Brostrom 18:05 Now you also have many grants available right now.Drea Weiner 18:08 Yeah,Danelle Brostrom 18:08 Can you talk about those?Drea Weiner 18:09 This is my second year as Regional Director, and I spent a lot of time listening to educators both out and about in the community and also in their classroom. Listening to the different consultants both from within TCAPS, and within TBA, and listening to my fellow MiSTEM Directors. So what came up from all of those conversations was, we don't have the resources. How can we just try this if, like I don't want to spend $1,000 or $500 on additional materials like out of my own pocket. So we created a mini grant system where like, okay you've got an a, an idea of how you can bring STEM into your classroom, great. For the first tier, which is, I just want to try something, $500, I just want to try. Great, come, apply, we'll review it to make sure that you've actually thought it through. This is not meant for, oh, we're out of crayons in our classroom, or we're, like it's not meant to replenish anything, it's meant to actually be for a project of some kind.Larry Burden 19:09 I really think Ozobots are cool but I don't have a plan to do it.Drea Weiner 19:12 Yeah, something like that, or hey I really want to start a Blockables in my classroom, or I want a set of iPads, but I don't know what, you would do in fact have to think about what this is through. Or, like, once again, if you want to go to the EIE workshop and you'll find another one that you really want but maybe you're a little worried about like, when you're going to get your stuff. You can apply for this grant and get a whole nother kit to try. It's really meant to be like, think about what you want to try in your classroom. Here's some funds for this. It is meant for materials, not for just like hiring in a consultant or something like that to come into your classroom. It is that for materials for you to do. But like, that's what that's for. And then we have a second tier, which is $1,000, where if you're working in a team environment that includes business or the community that's, that's a little bit more meaningful, that's showing like, here's how it's a little bit more cross curricular, this is how we're bringing in the workforce component. Like, for example, if you're, if you've decided to code.org like all their resources for code.org are free, but you, there are programmers here in town who are very much aware that computer science is not necessarily being taught in our schools and they want it to because their kids are here in these schools, and they're just like you know what let's use Microbits in the classroom. But Microbits are $15 a pop not including the alligator clips and how do we, who's going to teach the kids the Python. Well then you can bring in, you can purchase all the stuff for the micro bits, you can bring in the community partner to help the kids with what your programming is going to be, but also Microbits has a free curriculum that's either tied to code.org their own thing, Project Lead the Way, I think there's one more I'm not entirely sure. But anyways, there's at least those three that you can apply to your classroom, but you do need some seed funding to purchase the materials for your class. And that's what the thousand dollar one is for, because we really want people talking to each other. We really want people reaching out to each other over like, what does this look like. And so those applications, which also can be found on our website, are due, November 27th, with the goal to have them announced in December, so you can do this right after the school, no the turn of the year, and give us your feedback and your evaluations before the end of the school year so you're not losing your mind. So that's, that's what the mini grants are for. And I...Larry Burden 21:34 You have all the resources.Drea Weiner 21:36 Not all of them but I'm trying, I'm trying pretty hard. Yeah, and so, and that came out of, that idea came out of actually another region, another MiSTEM region in the state was doing it, and they didn't reach 100% saturation, but it allowed for certain schools who typically either get forgotten or lost to explore how to do STEM in their classrooms. And once again, I'm not prescribing what you do, you do have to think it through, you do have to tie it to your standards, you do. And if you need help reaching out to a community member I've got people who can help you with that. There's that part as well, because I know, reaching out to community members can be scary. You still have to have a, have at least thought it through. Because if you give me an application that it looks like you're just purchasing classroom materials and that's it, I'm going to tell you no on that one, so.Danelle Brostrom 22:25 So what do you hope for in terms of the future of this program?Drea Weiner 22:28 Oh my gosh, so I hope for, oh, gosh,Larry Burden 22:32 World domination?Drea Weiner 22:33 World domination in STEM! Um, what I'm really hoping for is that teachers feel empowered by, well by their administrators, by the state, by community partners to try things out in their classroom, and to not feel the fear of how does this tie back into what I'm doing. Like you, you have people you can go out and ask questions to. I'm hoping that kids are thinking, like, maybe you ask the kids what they want to do. We want to work on an erosion project, or we want to go to the bay and count like how many birds have died from whatever bird flu is going on. Like, you know, how do you bring in the student voice to this. How do you have a full supportive community coming in saying this is how, these are our issues, please kids come solve this, because I think that's another component, or how do we expose kids to these type of careers that no one knows are going to be out there in 20 years.Larry Burden 23:31 It seems like, you know, I think STEM gets labeled or viewed sometimes as coding.Drea Weiner 23:36 Yeah,Larry Burden 23:37 It's coding, you know, and so...Drea Weiner 23:38 or it's FIRST Robotics and exclusively FIRST Robotics.Larry Burden 23:41 Exactly whereas, whereas really it's more about problem solving, it's taking, its taking learning and making it applicable.Drea Weiner 23:47 If you're talking about food chains, okay, let's talk about the invasive species that are found out in our bay. Let's talk about like, why is it important for the micro plastics, that from the 3D printers, how do we make sure that those do not wind up in our food chain and wind up in the fish that we also eat when we go fishin'. You know, how does that affect us? And, you know, we talk about food chains, we talk about food webs, we talk about, you know pollution on some level, what does that actually mean? That's what it's all about.Larry Burden 24:17 It's really, it's just good practice, it's good educational practice.Drea Weiner 24:20 Yeah.Larry Burden 24:21 We just have to maybe take that one, one extra step, that one courageous step away from what's, what's built into the curriculum we're getting from wherever we're getting our curriculum from, and going okay how can this be applied to something that our students care about.Drea Weiner 24:40 Yeah.Danelle Brostrom 24:41 And I love the State of Michigan is saying that this is valuable. They're, they're putting money behind it, they're not just giving us some other mandate that we have to do. They're saying this is important and we're going to give you people that will help guide you and make this happen, so it's fortunate.Drea Weiner 24:53 Yeah, Yeah. And I would also say that our Legis., a lot of my work is Legislator based. That's where some of my requirements come from, which a lot of those are listening to the businesses. And so I'm someone where if something doesn't make sense, a teacher can be like, Drea, here's my concern, this is what's popping up, and if it's something that is systemic, because let's face it, a lot of these issues are systemic, I get to go down to Lansing and advocate for what's going on. And the Executive Director of the program. Megan Schrauben, and she's the one who, like meets with the governor's office saying, okay here's where we're struggling with in STEM education, and you really need to listen to this. So that's, that's another piece of what I do like I don't get to spend the days in the classrooms with the kiddos and see like them doing it every day, most days. But I at least get to like take those stories with me and, and advocate.Larry Burden 25:48 So, Tech Tool of the Week!Techtool of the Week 25:52 Tech Tool of the Week, I want to talk about the STEM in Literature Project. Drea, Would you like to tell us a little bit about that.Drea Weiner 25:57 Oh sure, I'm gonna have to let everyone know that my hat is shifting here a little bit I'm not just the MiSTEM Regional Director for us. I'm also one of the REMC RITS members for us. And this,Larry Burden 26:11 I just want to stop really quick. We're going to have an acronym, like list, because you've thrown about seven of them out and they usually stop and go, and what does that mean, but we're just gonna let this go.Drea Weiner 26:24 Once again I work with Legislators so I like it doesn't, I have now like become so accustomed to them I don't even realize it using them anymore.Danelle Brostrom 26:32 That's okay.Drea Weiner 26:33 Yeah, SEL, that was a new one I had to teach one of my co workers this week it was great social emotional learning. All right. Yeah,Danelle Brostrom 26:40 STEM in Literature Project, tell us.Drea Weiner 26:42 Promoting STEM through Literature Project. Okay, so this came out of the REMC Classroom Makers Project. And I think the thought was a, first of all this, I do not own this project, one, it is a REMC project, and two, Judy Bowling, and Kerry Giuliano are the wonderful, masterful ladies throughout the state who came up with this project and have been promoting it at every single ed tech conferences this summer. And this year, they are doing full day workshops throughout the state of how do you apply this. Anyways, taking another step back, is that this came from the Classroom Makers Project where they're using all that Make philosophy in the classroom, and how do you, how do you give students time to actually ask questions and inquire, and through their own space by Making great. Some of the things that people were running into, teachers were running into throughout the state were like, that's great how does this tie in to my standards. That's great. We've got a third grade reading bill coming down the pipeline, we don't have time for this. Okay, well maybe it fits, you know, on the day before Thanksgiving where all the kids are squirrely but you know, I don't really see this as something that I can continuously have in my classroom. And so looking at the third grade reading bill, the feedback from the teachers, and like how does this tie into my classroom, how do I get my administrators on board. Those two wonderful ladies, Kerry and Judy, they actually went and like, okay let's go look at which books that are, for the most part, based on real people, and that have design thinking, and making in their story. And so they picked out all of these books, many of them are by people of color, or marginalized voices, or like people who suffer from autism. And, like, here are these stories that they also have created like a pseudo, like, I don't know if they're called key cards or it's like a pseudo lesson plan Danelle help me out a little.Danelle Brostrom 28:35 Yeah there's a lesson plan, and there's sample questions that you can use. There's also simple activities that you can connect with the maker kits that are waiting your MC for you to be checked out. Or if you read the book yourself you might come up with three other ideas on how you can use making to connect these. They're phenomenal books and the work that those ladies have done is top notch.Drea Weiner 28:54 Yeah, and they're free. So we have those books at REMC for you to check out. We have the list of materials that require, that go along with the lesson plans. Okay, so here we have these free materials for you to check out and actually go back and apply it in your classroom, we also, like they're K-12. I sat down with a secondary English consultant over at TBA, and I was like hey, so these are picture books, and usually when I think about picture books it's for elementary school but they're telling me this is K-12, this is notLarry Burden 29:23 You're in a safe place here.Drea Weiner 29:23 This is not my area of expertise, and then like I shared with her the website. I shared with her, here's a lesson plan, one of the lesson plans tied to one of the books. She immediately tied three different standards for sixth grade into the lesson plan. And so, that's kind of one of the things to, where if you guys are confused about how do I fit this in, like what does this look like in my classroom, like this is meant to be K-12 and like there are people here within TCAPS, there's here, there's people within TBA who are just like, let me, let me help you out.Danelle Brostrom 29:56 Um, but go to the website it's bit.ly/pstlmaker. And you can see the resources that are availableLarry Burden 30:03 My tagline, I've got this. And of course I have to throw the A in there because I love STEAM. Yeah, STEAM is Lit. No? Yeah, no? Okay, moving on.Danelle Brostrom 30:12 Rolling the eyes just a little Larry.Larry Burden 30:14 Tutorials and updates, I just wanted to throw out, um, you shared with me yesterday. Two days ago, your DigCit for Parents.Danelle Brostrom 30:22 Oh yeah,Larry Burden 30:23 Which I thought was awesome,Danelle Brostrom 30:25 and Stephie, I didn't do it on my own.Larry Burden 30:28 Well you shared it on your own.Danelle Brostrom 30:29 I had to give credit.Larry Burden 30:30 But the presentation is great, there's so much in there, and I have a feeling we're going to be doing a lot with that in the upcoming weeks because I think it's really important to be communicating some of those resources with our parents. It's just, it's just too important. In closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoopDanelle Brostrom 30:48 @brostromdaDrea Weiner 30:49 @dreaweinerLarry Burden 30:49 Subscribe to the podcast on Podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, Downcast, Overcast, the Google Play Store or wherever else you get your ear candy. Leave review, we love the feedback. Thanks for listening and inspiring.Danelle Brostrom 31:03 Yes. This is why I love you.Transcribed by https://otter.ai