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What if we combined immersion, emotion, storytelling — and games? We all want “engagement” … but what is engagement? How can our projects create it? What are the elements that go into it? Can game theory and play teach us how to make our experiences better? What is “narrative transportation”? Why are emotions key to memory creation? And what do Renaissance fairs have to do with museums? Ed Rodley (Co-Founder and Principal, The Experience Alchemists), joins MtM host Jonathan Alger (Managing Partner, C&G Partners) to discuss “Playful Engagement.” Along the way: holodecks, Sleep No More, portmanteaus, and Ed's upcoming book.Talking Points: 1. What is “Playful Engagement”?2. The Magic Circle3. Immersion 4. Emotion5. Storytelling6. Games and PlayHow to Listen:Listen on Apple Podcasts:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-the-museum/id1674901311 Listen on Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/6oP4QJR7yxv7Rs7VqIpI1G  Listen at Making the Museum, the Website:https://www.makingthemuseum.com/podcast Links to Every Podcast Service, via Transistor:https://makingthemuseum.transistor.fm/Guest Bio: Ed Rodley, Co-Founder & Principal, The Experience Alchemists (TEA), is an award-winning experience designer with over thirty-five years' experience in making exhibitions and experiences for cultural organizations large and small. Incorporating emerging technologies into museum practice has been a theme throughout his career. As a thought leader in the digital transformation of the cultural sector, Ed frequently speaks at events around the world like ICOM's International Symposium 2024 in Dubai and the National Digital Forum 2023 in New Zealand. He was one of Blooloop's 50 Museum Influencers for 2021. His book “Designing for Playful Engagement in Museums” is due out in Summer 2025 from Routledge. About Making the Museum:Making the Museum is hosted (podcast) and written (newsletter) by Jonathan Alger. This podcast is a project of C&G Partners | Design for Culture.Learn more about the creative work of C&G Partners:https://www.cgpartnersllc.com/Links for This Episode:Ed Rodley by Email:ed@theexperiencealchemists.com The Experience Alchemists https://www.theexperiencealchemists.com “Taking the Plunge” in Museum Magazine https://www.aam-us.org/2022/11/01/taking-the-plunge/  This article discusses the current state of immersive experiences, some of the conversations around these experiences and their “authenticity” and surveys the psychological research into immersion in digital environments to explore what makes them compelling. "Thinking about Museums" Blog https://thinkingaboutmuseums.com/ Ed's personal weblog on museums, content, design, and why they matter. Museopunks: The Podcast for the Progressive Museumhttps://www.aam-us.org/programs/about-museums/museopunks/ Ed had the distinct pleasure of co-hosting with Suse Anderson her AAM-sponsored podcast which investigated the fascinating work and personalities in and around the museum sector, with a focus on emergent, boundary-pushing work and ideas. Humanizing the Digital: Unproceedings from the MCN 2018 Conferencehttps://ad-hoc-museum-collective.github.io/humanizing-the-digital/ This book explored how museums can use technology to foster human connection and dialogue, advance accessibility and inclusion, and champion inquiry and knowledge, drawn from the Museum Computer Network conference. CODE | WORDS - Technology and Theory in the Museum https://medium.com/code-words-technology-and-theory-in-the-museum Brought together leading museum thinkers and practitioners to explore emerging issues about the nature of museums in the light of the dramatic and ongoing impact of digital technologies. Links for Making the Museum, the Podcast: Contact Making the Museum:https://www.makingthemuseum.com/contact Host Jonathan Alger, Managing Partner of C&G Partners, on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanalger Email Jonathan Alger:alger@cgpartnersllc.com C&G Partners | Design for Culture:https://www.cgpartnersllc.com/ Making the Museum, the Newsletter:Liked the show? You might enjoy the newsletter. Making the Museum is also a free weekly professional development email for exhibition practitioners, museum leaders, and visitor experience professionals. (And newsletter subscribers are the first to hear about new episodes of this podcast.)Join hundreds of your peers with a one-minute read, three times a week. Invest in your career with a diverse, regular feed of planning and design insights, practical tips and tested strategies — including thought-provoking approaches to technology, experience design, audience, budgeting, content, and project management.Subscribe to the newsletter:https://www.makingthemuseum.com/

The multi-talented, multi-creative, (and may I say, multi-amazing!) Mk Haley joins the show to discuss everything from her origin story, finding creative purpose, what life was like working for Disney (and beyond), and we dip into the holiday season with some compelling stories about Santa!  Support the showVisit www.creativepeacemeal.com to leave a review, fan voicemail, and more!Insta @creative_peacemeal_podcastFB @creativepeacemealpodBonfire https://www.bonfire.com/store/creative-peacemeal/Redbubble CPPodcast.redbubble.comCreative Peacemeal READING list here Donate to AhHa!Broadway here! Donate Dachshund Rescue of Houston here Interested in Corrie Legge's content planner? Click here to order! Looking for custom orthotics? Foot and Shoe Solutions is your answer. Click here for more.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends on 20th December 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.Show references: https://vacevents.com/THURSDAY 5TH OCTOBER – QEII CONFERENCE CENTRE, WESTMINSTERhttps://vacevents.com/committee/ Bernard Donoghue OBECEO & Director, ALVA, the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions, Mayor of London's Culture Ambassador. Co-Chair, London Tourism Recovery Board.https://www.alva.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/bernard-donoghue-obe-0aa9b97/ Bernard has been the Director of ALVA, the UK's Association for Leading Visitor Attractions, since 2011 following a career in advocacy, communications, and lobbying, latterly at a senior level in the tourism and heritage sector. In  2017, the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, appointed Bernard to be the Mayor's Ambassador for Cultural Tourism and a member of the Mayor's Cultural Leadership Board. Bernard is Co-Chair of the London Tourism Recovery Board. He is also Chairman of LIFT, London International Festival of Theatre; Chairman of the Bristol Old Vic, the oldest continually operating theatre in the English-speaking world, and also of the People's History Museum, the Museum of Democracy.  He has been a member of the UK Government's Tourism Industry Council since 2016.  Bernard was named by Blooloop in 2020 as one of the world's 50 most influential people in museums, and in July 2021 won the public vote for the COVID Special Recognition Award from the UK Museums and Heritage Awards for his service to, and leadership of the museums and heritage sector in the UK during the pandemic. Ken Robinson CBE FTS - Founder of VAChttps://www.linkedin.com/in/ken-robinson-cbe-fts-bb811312/Ken is an independent adviser who speaks and writes on tourism topics.  As a "tourism enthusiast" he aims to be a pragmatic pioneer of new initiatives, strategies and solutions to optimise the economic, cultural and social benefits of tourism.   Ken's Consultancy companies completed over 1500 assignments, mostly in the UK but also several hundred international projects, beginning over 50 years ago, before the days of mass tourism.  He was a founding member of the Tourism Society and supported the formation of the Tourism Alliance, both of which organisations he has served as a board member and Chair, as he has on several other Tourism bodies. Specialising initially in visitor attractions, Ken initiated and subsequently chaired the National Visitor Attractions Conference, VAC, and has been on its Committee ever since.  In addition to many clients in the public, private and third sectors, he has advised the UN's International Trade Centre, on national and regional Tourism strategy development.  His current focus is to move the industry's thinking from marketing to the critical need to manage future tourism for the benefit of host communities, and to optimise tourist's experiences.  Ken was appointed CBE for services to Tourism in 1997, and an Honorary Doctorate in 2014. Paul KellyChief Executive, BALPPA, Chair of VAC https://www.balppa.org/https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-kelly-2714a922/Having been with BALPPA for 11 years and working with VAC for that amount of time as well, Paul started his career in the attractions sector at Thorpe Park in the 80's and then moved on to the London Eye for its opening around the millennium.  He has  always been involved with visitor attractions.  Several more years working within Merlin followed both in the UK and abroad, mainly on business development.  Being a BALPPA member for 30 years means, being Chair of the organising committee at VAC keeps Paul in touch with all aspects of the attractions industry. Liz Terry MBEManaging Director, Leisure Media Grouphttps://www.linkedin.com/in/elizterry/ Janet Uttley Head of Business Transformation for VisitEnglandhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/janetuttley/  Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Season 5 kicks off today with not one, not two, but three excellent guests.On today's episode, I have the pleasure of speaking to Bernard Donoghue, Paul Kelly and Ken Robinson, founders of the Visitor Attractions Conference. You also know Bernard as, Director of ALVA and Paul as CEO of BALPPA.VAC celebrates its 20th anniversary this year and I'm finding out where the idea for the event spanned from, how it's changed and developed over the years. And we take a look ahead to what 2024 has in store for the attraction sector.Unfortunately, fellow Founder; Liz Terry, the Managing Director of Leisure Media Group, and also Janet Uttley, Head of Business Transformation for VisitEngland, were unable to join us on this episode. But stay tuned for lots of insight and to find out how you can get your ticket for the VAC conference this year.Kelly Molson: If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Bernard, Ken, Paul, it is a treat to have you all on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me. I think this is the first time I've had three guests as well, so this could be interesting. Bernard Donoghue: And three men as well. I mean, it's like a really bad testosterone banana rama, isn't it? Really. Kelly Molson: I'm just a little flower in the middle of you thorns today. Yes, it's a real shame. So, unfortunately, Janet Uttley and Liz Terry couldn't make it along to join us today, which is a shame. But I'm sure that they will get lots of mentions as we talk through some of the things that we're going to chat about today. But first, as ever, I want to start with a little icebreaker. I'm going to ask you all the same thing because I'm intrigued as to whether you ended up doing what you thought you might. So, Ken, I'm going to start with you first. When you were at school, what did you think that you'd grow up and be when you were older? Ken Robinson: I didn't know. Kelly Molson: Had no clue at all? Ken Robinson: No, I didn't have a clue. I was lucky to have a good education. I didn't work at school. And then I got into a job, which was I was very successful at it and it was very boring. So I left. And when I discovered tourism and visitor attractions, it took me over. I didn't decide to do it. It told me that was it. Kelly Molson: Oh, I love it. It's like a calling. Ken Robinson: At the time it was, I was actually sitting in a turret room which had been vacated by Lord Montague. His desk used to face in and I liked that because I didn't have to look at the faces of the visitors going past who might complain, because in those days, buli was very expensive. And then one day I thought to myself, these people are investing their hard earned money and leisure time in making a decision to come here and it's our job to make sure they have a good time. And I turned my desk round and I looked at them all day long and the moment I turned my desk round, everything changed. Kelly Molson: I love that, because you could see the whites of their eyes and how they were engaging with the venue as they turned up. Ken Robinson: Well, it's just such a failure, isn't it? If you've got somebody who makes a choice and spends their time and money, a family decision for many people, and it should be a highlight. And if it isn't, whose fault is it? It's probably the fault of the visitor attraction, given that the person has chosen to go there in not communicating well enough with them about what they've got and what they would find interesting. Kelly Molson: This is such a brilliant story and that wasn't where I was expecting this to go either, Ken. I love it. Paul, what about you, Paul?Paul Kelly: Yeah, I mean, when I was at school, I was interested in sports and that was it, really, and luckily, that dragged me through the various places I went to. But what I was going to end up doing sports. I think once you get into sports quite seriously, you realise fairly quickly that actually you're not going to make it, so you have to find something else. So, laterally, I decided that business was a good idea. So I started doing business studies up in North Wales and for some reason were doing a sandwich course in those days, I think it was called that. One of those, I got placed at Thorpe Park. I don't know why particularly, so there's a group of six of us went down to Thorpe Park to work there and I actually started working on the rides.Paul Kelly: I'm not sure what it had to do with business at the time, but I'm glad somebody thought it did. And I couldn't believe that was a job that you could do, you could be paid for, because I came from the north at that point and there wasn't an awful lot going on in the 80s and actually be paid. Everyone enjoyed themselves, fantastic atmosphere, parties every night. I'm sure it's still like that. And it was just amazing. And from that moment on, regardless of what happened after that, including other colleges, other bits and pieces, effectively, I never left. Kelly Molson: It's always going to be in that sector. Paul Kelly: Yes. Kelly Molson: Excellent. Great. Bernard, same to you. Bernard Donoghue: Well, this may come as a surprise, but my grandfather was in the Irish Guards, my father was in the Grenadier Guards, my brother was in the Royal Marines, and I had a very large collection of action men. I genuinely thought I would probably end up in the army. And actually, I got an offer after university to go into the Household Cavalry. I don't think I've ever told anyone this before. Anyway, it just clearly I didn't pursue the application. It wasn't for me at all. Got really into politics. So I started working in the House of Commons, House of Lords and the Council of Europe in Strasbourg, and then I've just been in sort of lobbying, campaigning, political world ever since. But I still miss the uniforms. Can't deny it. Kelly Molson: I think we'd like to see you in that uniform, Bernard, if I'm not going to lie. So from the lobbying aspect, which is obviously a really big part of the role that you currently have, how did the attractions bit kind of slot into those? Where did the two join up? Bernard Donoghue: It's a really odd coincidence. I was trustee of a charity that Diana, Princess of Wales, was a patron of, and I was working full time for a charity that she was a patron of. So when she divorced Prince of Wales, now the King, she reduced her patronages down from 187 to six. And I happened to be involved with six of them. I went to work for her as a deputy private secretary, press secretary. But of course, the moment she died, which was August 31st, I had no job. Suddenly I was unemployed. And I got contacted by a woman who Ken will certainly know, probably Paul will, too, by Sue Garland, who used to be Deputy Chief Executive of VisitBritain, who'd heard me speak at something and said, "Well, we're just about to create this post of government affairs liaison. Would you be interested to working on the role while working on what you do next?”Bernard Donoghue: And that was in August 1997. And here I am still. Ken Robinson: But also, can I add something to that? Because I was lucky enough to be sitting in the room on many occasions when Bernard would give his briefing at meetings that were held by VisitBritain. And it was always a highlight of the day because Bernard, in those days, never pulled his punches. I'm not saying he does now, but he would just explain to everybody in the room what was going on with all of the political parties, which we never understood, and explain what we ought to be doing in order to best put our case. So it was really no shock when he turned up at ALVA, because I would say this if he wasn't here, he was the star of the show there, and that expertise that he showed has blossomed in the job that he's doing now. Kelly Molson: This is lovely, isn't it? Aren't you all nice? Bernard Donoghue: This is love in.. Kelly Molson: Probably why you all work together, right? You will get on so well. Right, back to you, Ken. Unpopular opinion, please. Ken Robinson: Most visitor attractions do not deliver full value for money to most of their visitors. Kelly Molson: Okay, Paul and Bernard, do you agree with this? Will our listeners agree with this? Is this an unpopular opinion?Paul Kelly: Did you use the word most, Ken? Ken Robinson: I did. Paul Kelly: I'll go for some, not most. Bernard Donoghue: Yeah, I'll go for some as well. One of my favourite programmes is Yes, Minister. And whenever you'd hear something off the wall, bonkers, they would say, that's a very brave opinion, Minister. That's a very brave opinion, Ken.Ken Robinson: Now's not the time to justify it. I'll do that on another occasion. Kelly Molson: Yeah, we will invite you back and we can do that one on one, Ken. Paul, what about you? Unpopular opinion? Paul Kelly: Well, I'm guessing that anybody that's worked in a theme park will probably have the same opinion I have. So I worked at Thorpe Park, which was 450 acres, two thirds of which was water. And at the end of the day, when you were walking out, and in those days, that could be 9, 10 o'clock at night, it was beautiful. On a late summer's evening, calm waters, walking through a park which had just been cleaned and tidied and ready for the next day. It was fantastic. And we all had the same opinion once were down the pub discussing the day. It's just a shame we have to let people into theme parks because it's the absolutely beautiful place without them there. So sometimes people let the parks down. Kelly Molson: That's a good one. That is a good one. Yeah. And you don't want to let them in to see the beautiful bit either, do you? Because then there'd be people there. It wouldn't be serene. Paul Kelly: No, I mean, those evenings, if there was still time, we'd go windsurfing on the lakes, cable water ski around the back. And it was just a shame that all these people came in every day and messed it all up. Kelly Molson: Yeah. Well, I'm pretty sure that most people who've worked in theme parks aren't going to disagree with you on that one, Paul. Good one. Bernard, what about yours? Bernard Donoghue: Even though I chair a theatre and I know how important the revenue is, I'm not a fan of selling drinks and food to people in theatres because they just make a noise. I can't bear it. I mean, it depends. I mean, it depends if it's a panto or something like that. Completely fine. Ken Robinson: Oh, no, it's not. Bernard Donoghue: It kind of allies to what Paul was saying as well, which was I don't know whether it's an unpopular opinion. I think it's probably a popular opinion. But visitor behaviour, whether it's in a theatre, a museum, an art gallery or wherever, has completely deteriorated post lockdown. Some people's behaviour is getting worse and it's very difficult to know what to do about it. Kelly Molson: Yes, agree. I don't think that's going to be very unpopular at all, actually, considering some of the things that we've seen recently. Thank you all for sharing. Okay, let's get back to the serious bit. The Visitor Attractions Conference. It's 20 years old this year. If you are listening and you're not familiar with it, one, why the hell not? And two, you need to grab a ticket today. It's the leading networking and learning event for visitor attractions across the UK. And I first visited in October 2019 and it was the first sector specific conference that I had been to. We'd been working in the sector for probably about three or four years, had never really at that point kind of gone all out on our like, "This is what we're going to niche and this is what we're going to specialise in."Kelly Molson: So I was kind of doing a bit of a fact finding mission really, and I came along and it absolutely blew me away. I think it was one of the friendliest conferences I've ever been to. I think you'd created an environment where everybody was really welcome, no stupid questions. Everyone from speakers to guests where kind of felt like they were all on the same level, really happy to answer questions that you had, really happy to talk to you. And I think that was for me. I came away from that event, I went back to my team and said, "This is where we should be. This is the event for us, this is where we should be attending, these are the people that we should be speaking to." And I've absolutely loved every minute of that. Kelly Molson: I mean, the next one I went to was a virtual one. So it was very different to the 2019 event, but still excellently organised. So firstly, thank you for making that happen. But where did the idea for the VAC come from in the first place? How did this come about? Ken Robinson: So we have to remember that the world was very different over 20 years ago. Really, really very different. Not just a question of internet or pre COVID and all those things and pre Olympics, but just very different. And attractions in those days thought and acted and communicated in their sectoral associations. Historic houses talked to historic houses, curators of museums talked to curators, bishops talked to priests, zoologists talked to botanists, but they didn't talk across the sectors. There were two exceptions to that. One was that in Visit England or English Tourist Board, there'd always been a committee there which was across the sectors, but the other one was ALVA. Now, when ALVA was formed, it was a 1 million visitors plus club for attractions, with 1 million plus visitors a year. Ken Robinson: Subsequently, groups of attractions, particularly English Heritage, National Trust, were involved originally associates, but it was a 1 million plus club and that's only 1% of the attractions in the United Kingdom had over 1 million. And it was very London centric. And ALVA had a five objectives, four of which were about government. And the interesting thing was that I was very good friends all through this time with Lord Lee, who know a very big part of the early success, pre Bernard of ALVA. I said to John Lee, “Look John, could you not change your name to ALVA and be involved with all the visitor attractions because they badly need something which glues everybody together and we need to get across this away from this sectoral stuff.” Ken Robinson: And everybody was talking about historic houses, talk about the house museums, talking about the continents of the museum but they weren't talking about visitors. They weren't talking about how you communicated with the visitors or what they were motivated by or how you could better manage things for visitors, give them better they weren't doing that. So John agreed with this and I've got the original papers here. I looked them out that I was asked first of all by ALVA in December of 2001 to write a paper on the future of ALVA which is headed: ALVA in the Future Representing All Visitor Attractions. Then after that the conversation went on and we realised that if were going to have some kind of overall event we couldn't do it without the National Tourist Board, we couldn't do it without Visit Britain, Visit England. We needed their input.Ken Robinson: We needed them to talk to DCMS and make sure it would happen. And also we wanted to do this not on a commercial basis but being by the industry, for the industry, run by the industry, not for profit. And that was a problem because we wanted to do it in the QE II Centre because we wanted to be in the centre of everything and that was going to cost an extraordinary sum of money and there wasn't that much money that could in that first year come originally from VisitEngland. So the partners in this, the partners being ALVA, BALPPA, Paul's organisation, Leisure Media the wonderful Liz Terry and her magazine which has forever been behind this event for no recompense whatever and myself put up 5000 pounds each security in order that the thing would happen. Ken Robinson: You said, "We'll stand the risk, let's do it.". So in 2004 I wrote the briefing of the first conference and I found from a 2003 the government asked for a list of topics that would be discussed in order they could work out whether or not they might like it and it's still here. What I like about it is it would do quite well for this year's conference. All those topics are still relevant. So that's where it came from. That's where it came from. We wanted it to have at the time the lowest possible attendance fee to get the highest number of people there. We wanted to involve everybody. Ken Robinson: And the cast list for that 2004 event, my goodness me, absolutely fantastic cast list in terms of the people we had for an initial event and you can imagine when it was announced and everybody was behind it ALVA was behind it. BALPPA, I should have mentioned that Colin Dawson, Paul's predecessor was an absolute stalwart of the conference in the early years he stood by know, when times were tough and that's where it came from. Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal. It was really putting your money where your mouth is, isn't it? By all of you actually personally investing in this thing to bring it to life. You don't hear many things happening in that way anymore, do you? It's all about getting investment and asking other people to make the commitment to it and take the risk. Ken Robinson: Well, we have a company now, I should say. We have a company called VAC Events, and we are all equal. The four of us are equal shareholders, that's to say, Bernard and ALVA, BALPPA and Paul, Liz and myself, for no benefit. Martin does it for us, but we are the people that carry the can, if you like, and I don't think we've ever had anything out of it apart from a nice lunch at Christmas, but apart from that, it's a great feeling of doing something. When you say everybody is very friendly and talks to one another. That's why they're all in the same business. Bishop, curator, zoologist person running a heritage railway, they're all in the same business. Kelly Molson: Obviously, the first event was a success. You've been on and you've done many, what, 20, 20 events since that first one. How have you seen it kind of change and develop over the years? So what did that first conference look like compared to what this year's will look like? And how have you kind of evolved it over that time to keep it relevant to your audience? Paul Kelly: Well, I think so. My involvement directly has been the last ten years, so I'm halfway through chairing for this one, but I was actually there at the early ones because I worked at that time. I was working at the London Eye, just across the river, and I was good friends with Colin Dawson at the time. I'd worked with him at Thorpe Park and he for some people, may well remember Colin as entertaining Princess Diana on a log flume in 92, 3 and 4. Paul Kelly: And I was there. It's hard to tell, but I was actually there. I'm not in any of the photos in Paris Match and all of those places. I have a couple of myself here. I didn't get anything signed by Princess Diana and sent over to you know, bitterness takes a while to and I've joked with Colin over this many years. Colin was there, but if you look closely behind the scenes, you'll find I was there too, but so I was great friends with Colin over many years and still am. He was obviously contacting everyone he knew about this conference. He was working for BALPPA at the time. I was working for the Two Swords Group, had the operational contract for the London Eye. Paul Kelly: So I went to the first one and I suppose my impressions of the first one was for somebody who hasn't been there before, the QE II is extremely impressive as a conference center. I don't go to many that look like that around the UK. Most of them normally the ones I go to are in attractions, they're slightly different so it was hugely impressive both on its location and what was across the road and how things went and I was a little bit starstruck I suppose, for the first one. Now I get the opportunity to sit on the stage and look out at everybody and have a slightly different view on it all, but still think it's an extremely impressive environment to do that. Paul Kelly: And I think the biggest change for me, and I think we may cover a little bit later, is how we've broken up the afternoons into separate segments and sections where people can go along to a smaller, informal group discussing a topic that they particularly want. And I think the thing I also like about that is the amount of people who want to go to more than one of them that are on at the same time and are almost complaining there's too many things to go to, which I think is hilarious, which means it's really good. And hopefully that means that next time they'll really think about which one do I want to go to, obviously I want to go to more than one, but I'm going to pick my best one. Paul Kelly: So I think for me, that's probably the biggest change over time. But what doesn't change for me is the team that we have putting these things together, which we're actually relatively slick at. Everyone gets the chance to put their opinions and I'm glad we don't record those meetings and it works out really well. And I think as a team, it's amazing how long we've stuck at it and stuck together. Kelly Molson: I'd love to be on a little fly on the wall for those meetings. Have you ever had a fallout about something? Bernard Donoghue: Yes, we're frequently violent. It's a visitor experience in its own right, I think. Kelly Molson: I'll pay for it. Bernard Donoghue: We reflect the madness that some of our visitors demonstrate on site so in that case I think we're rooted in the industry. The first one that I went to was in 2011, so I just joined ALVA at that point. And the first one I spoke, it was in 2012 and I've been doing the same kind of slot ever since. I do a kind of State of the Nation in the morning because ALVA obviously gets loads of data and information and we publish all of our visitor figures and all the rest of it, and actually we collect and commission much more data now than we ever used to. So I share all of that in the kind of Donoghue half hour copyright. Bernard Donoghue: What's lovely I mean, Paul's absolutely right is that over the last twelve years I think we've seen a real move from people desperately wanting to speak about their successes to being really open about what hasn't worked, which of course is far more interesting and useful. So there's been a really lovely shift from people saying, "No, I don't have to do the propaganda stuff.” Actually, I'm going to tell you what it was like, why it was a disaster and what we learned from it. And that's so useful. So you do get this real honesty coming from the speakers who know that's what they find useful too. So why not share it? I think the other one is I do a presentation about, is there core behaviours of successful visitor attractions regardless of type?Bernard Donoghue: And there are there's about ten of them, but one of them is the ability to foster creative partnerships with unusual suspects. So the presentations that are most fascinating for me is where a visitor attraction, it doesn't matter whether it's a cathedral or whether it's a museum or gallery or theme park, have teamed up with someone that you wouldn't expect them to team up with to tell the story of their people and places and collections in a new, innovating, exciting way. And those are fascinating, absolutely fascinating. So I love those. There's much more of that. Kelly Molson: Fantastic. Well, on that note, I want to know from each of you who has been the most inspiring speaker that you've had at the conference over the past 20 years. Ken, let us start with you. Who do you think would be on your list for that? Ken Robinson: I had a look through the programs going back to 2004 and came up with the following names which surprised me, actually. I think originally our first most inspiring speaker was Simon Jenkins, the columnist of the Times, who had very strong views, which didn't necessarily agree with what government and others were doing. He did give a very inspiring presentation and then there are some people who perhaps we would expect less. The most single most surprising speaker was somebody called Tristram Mayhew, who titles himself as the Chief Gorilla of Go Ape and in a room full of suits and quite smart dresses and trouser suits, Go Ape shambled onto the stage in a car key shirt and proceeded to explain how he'd done things differently. And frankly, it was riveting. We had a chap called Tony Berry from the National Trust who gave presentations. Ken Robinson: His first one was just stunnning, you know, in the days when HR was less popular, Tony Berry would tell you why you should be interested and he was absolutely amazing. And Sue Wilkinson, incidentally, of the National Trust, who was the person responsible really for dragging the Trust from its sort of old form to its new marketing orientated thinking about its supporters future success? She was terrific. And the other person I would mention another Tony, I don't know whether or Tony's there's Tony Butler from the Museum of East Anglian Life, who again, when Bernard was talking about people talking about doing things differently and it inspires you. Some of those examples are very interesting, but not easy to copy. Ken Robinson: In other attractions, we always look for things that do go across the piece, so anybody can learn from the lessons within the example that we're talking about. And incidentally, we do have arguments in meetings, it's about whether particular speakers and particular topics are the way of doing things. And generally speaking, when we all have a good go at it comes out better than it did when anybody said, “Well, I know what the right answer is. No, you don't. Let's all talk about it. So that works.” So you get these people that actually inspire and they light up the room, not because of clever graphics and not because of a forceful way, but they light up the room because of the originality of their ideas. Now, I'll come to my number one. Ken Robinson: I'm sorry about this, because he's sitting on my screen down there, and that's young Bernard, who since he joined our there you go. That's the top half that works. You should see the bottom half doesn't work. He's just had pins put in it. Kelly Molson: Just for our listeners here, Bernard is given a little muscle strong arm salute on screen here. Ken Robinson: Bernard combines the latest immediate knowledge of talking to people across the industry with an absolutely amazing gift of the gab, with a power of communication. And he's unstoppable. And we wouldn't have stood him for all these years if he wasn't. So of all the years and all the speakers, the consistent best is Bernard. But we have had other people, often surprising, who take know, you don't expect it, you think you're going to listen to ordinary session, all of a sudden it takes fire. Kelly Molson: Bernard, what have you got to say to that? Bernard Donoghue: What I say to Ken is there are packets of cash going from London to the south coast with immediate effect. Delighted. Thank you very much. It's really lovely, actually. I've tried to change things every year to do partly political, but also partly about good practice and who's doing what and who's interesting. I'll tell you what, one of my favourite speakers, and it was in a conversation, one of the things that we've introduced is a sort of conversation with slot, which works really well, actually, because a bit like this, you're off script, you respond to people. Liz chaired a conversation last year, so were in Birmingham last year and it was all about HR issues and of course, it know, coming out of COVID and cost of living crisis and recruitment challenges and all of those kind of stuff. Bernard Donoghue: And Tina Lewis is the director of people at the National Trust. National Trust, getting great repertoire here. She came out with an idea that they're doing at the National Trust and I've implemented it in the three organisations that I chair and it's made the biggest difference. So the National Trust, they will pay the rent deposit for your flat if you need them to. So if you're going through a cost of living crisis and you can't get up the cash to put down a rent deposit on your flat, they'll do it for you. You can't get up the cash to put down a rent deposit on your flat, they'll do it for you. That was such a transformational thing to hear. You could almost hear the gasp in the room of people going, "Oh, my God. Yeah, if we can, let's do that." Bernard Donoghue: And I've now introduced it. As I say in the organisations that I chair, not many people have taken it up, but the fact that we've said it has made such a difference to people. I mean, as it is at the Trust, actually, there's been a relatively small number of people at the Trust who've taken it up, but the very policy decision, the very communication of it, just spoke volumes about an organisation that cares about its staff, and particularly those staff who are on really limited budgets. So there's been loads and loads of speakers over the course of the last few years, but that for me was a nugget which has changed people's lives and has been implementable. Kelly Molson: I think that's the key to that part, isn't it, is that it's an incredible thing that they've done, but the fact that it can be implemented someone has listened to that talk. They can take that away, take it to their board, take it to whoever needs to okay that, and they can put that into action like that straight away. That's the power of a really good initiative and a good speaker to be able to deliver that as well. Paul, what about you? Please don't say Bernard. I think he's had enough praise today. Bernard Donoghue: No, keep going. Kelly Molson: No. Paul Kelly: You're OK, Bernard? We'll leave that one where it is, shall we? If we can squeeze Bernard into the room next. Right, so one special mention I wanted to give, actually, which is one of the years not too long ago, we invited Simon Calder to speak, the travel journalist, and I have to say I wasn't convinced, because clearly he's not working in one of our attractions and doesn't necessarily know the industry pretty well. But I have to say, he was hugely entertaining, had done his homework, was hugely knowledgeable, and so he was absolutely excellent. But I think the most important thing for me is that he left us and he said to me, “Enjoyed it so much, I'll come back later.” And I said, “Yes, of course you will.”Paul Kelly: So he went away and he came back at the end of the day to talk to all the people that he'd seen early in the day, because he loved the atmosphere and he wasn't required to do that. And he came along. And for that I have to put a special mention in one for myself to actually listen to the others when they say, “This will be good”, and secondly for him, for actually doing a bit and actually coming back later. And he was a fabulous addition and outside of our industry. So my inside the industry one is somebody I ended up working with because I was with the Two Swords group and then they were bought by Merlin with Nick Varney and his Merry Men. Paul Kelly: So Nick and his team had obviously been in the industry a very long time at this point, dipped in and out of theme parks and attractions. But Nick didn't actually do many talks. You wouldn't actually hear him speak about too much. I'd heard him speak over in the IAAPA trade show held in Orlando every November, and he was absolutely brilliant. And then Ken managed to get him to speak at VAC one year. And again, he was absolutely excellent. And this fits in nicely because now that he's retired from Merlin, he's speaking again this year. So I think that will be really interesting because he's absolutely excellent. Ken Robinson: And by the way, guys, just to show you that we know what we're doing here, this is 2004, okay? And it says here the recipe for success. Nick Varney chief executive, will talk about the components for commercial success. And that's before. So we've got him first and look what happened. Kelly Molson: I'm really looking forward to that interview, actually, and I think it would be really interesting to see how he differs now. He's kind of outside of the sector, and I think that the format that you've got him in. So that's the interview with Liz, isn't it? On stage? I think that's going to be a really great format as well. I've seen that work really well in the past where she's interviewed people and it just feels really comfortable and really conversational. I think that brings out the best of people. Bernard Donoghue: Kelly, do you want to know who's been of most variable quality? Kelly Molson: Oh, yes. Bernard Donoghue: Tourism Minister. I mean, without doubt. I mean, we've been going 20 years now, therefore we've had 20 tourism ministers, had one a year, like Christmas cards. And some of them have completely got the industry completely understood. It delivered a barnstorming speech, and then the next year you'll get the annual Tourism Minister pop up and they'll read something flat, banal, uninteresting. And we're so torched by the experience that we don't invite the one next on the year. So we're always banging on about this. Tourism is very good at job creation. In fact, we've created 20 Tourism Minister jobs in years, but they are of variable quality. Ken Robinson: The best we ever had, Bernard, I think, by far, was John Penrose, when he had completed his review of the industry and got very clear views, which he put to government. Unfortunately, government didn't do it, as they usually don't, but he was good and people liked him and gave him a high rating. I think the next best was probably Margaret Hodge, who was very good and spoke from the heart. But as you say, when we look at every year, we look at a rating of every speaker and the meeting after the event, we go through those ratings and decide, those that got good ratings, why did they get it? Was it intrinsic to their character, their nature, their topic? Was there something special? And those who didn't, why was that? Was it our fault? Ken Robinson: Did we not brief them properly? Or was it never going to be any better? Ken Robinson: And that way we managed to manage the conference. So know the attraction sector. We sometimes forget that over half of all visits to visitor attractions in the UK are free of charge. We forget that the majority of visitor attractions are medium and small businesses. We forget that there are charitable and commercial attractions. We must be able to bring this whole sector together and move our thinking forward in the way that Bernard has just explained in terms of what he does with ALVA. And the other thing that Bernard mentioned was ALVA's research now. Ken Robinson: 20 years ago, you had to wait until the annual book came out from Thames Tower and then eventually from the centre of luck look to page 16 and there would be numbers, but very little interpretation of what those numbers meant. Now, Bernard is behind much of the work that is done now with ALVA. But the key to it is it's not just numbers, it's interpretation. And because of the communication skills, when ALVA put out a message, it is interpreted. It says why it was a successful year or what was mitigating against that. And that's so important in trying to move our case forward. Kelly Molson: But it's important in improving the content that you give your audience at the conferences as well, right? If something isn't working and you've got a process of evaluating why that hasn't worked and how you improve on it for the next one. Let's just focus on why should people attend VAC this year? What is in it for them? What's on the agenda? What have they got to look forward to and how can we get them to book a ticket? Bernard Donoghue: I'll happily go first and go quite niche, actually. One of the things that I do now outside of ALVA, or because of ALVA is that I co chair the advisory board for VisitLondon. So essentially chair the London tourist board. And I do that with Kate Nichols of UK hospitality. And we created the London Tourism Recovery Group during COVID So my suggestion would be Sadiq Khan. So we've managed to get the Mayor of London to come along and speak at this anniversary conference. And it's not just because he's the Mayor of London and it's the 20th anniversary, but it's because he's the first ever Mayor of London that hazard one of his four political priorities, culture and tourism. That's number one. Bernard Donoghue: Number two is that he put his money where his mouth was and he funded the Let's Do London Recovery campaign, which was both domestic and international with the industry. We delivered it with London and partners, but he put up the lump sum behind it. And third, he completely gets that tourism and heritage and culture is both where you grow jobs and we're very good at it, but it's also where you grow people. It's where you grow people in terms of their cultural literacy or their sense of community or their independence or their sense of history. And therefore knowing where you come from enables you to be a better future citizen, if you like. Bernard Donoghue: So my quick blast would be we've got him doing a welcome, but also saying why visitor attractions and tourism are so important to him and to the economy and the politics of London. So that's not to be missed. Kelly Molson: That is a big draw. Absolutely a big draw. Paul, you mentioned earlier about the variety in splitting up that second session, that second part of the day with the seminars and the smaller talks that you do as well. That for me, as an attendee, is really valuable because you can kind of pick and choose what's relevant to you and go along and see lots of different talks. What do you think is the draw for people to come to the conference this year for you? Paul Kelly: Well, I was just jotting down, thinking about it's a little bit. An extension of what Ken was talking about is that it's the variety of what we do in one place is greater than anywhere else. And all the conferences I do because of the nature of what we do each end of the spectrum. So we've got talks about people who run charities to people who run hugely commercial operations. We've got people doing talks on which are free to get into those who are quite expensive, but focus on value for money. And you've got those that are indoor, those that are outdoor. When I spent my time business development at Merlin, they were always focused on a balanced portfolio. And a balanced portfolio meant making sure that right across your business, you have every aspect covered. Paul Kelly: So everything balances indoor, outdoor, UK, Europe, USA, whatever it is. And I think with our conference, that's what we try and do, we try and balance all of those types of different types of operations so that everything is covered, not to the point where it's too thin and you don't learn anything. And that's the key to it, is that we go into the depth. And the depth, I think, is greater now because we do those breakout sessions and we've got time to do in fact, we double up for those three different areas just for that afternoon. So I think those are the things, if anyone asks me why they should come, it's about the variety.Kelly Molson: Regardless of size of your attraction as well. And actually, from my perspective as a supplier to the industry, it's just as valuable to come along and learn and understand what's going on in the sector. You don't have to be an attraction to come along and take part and be educated about what's happening in the sector. What about you, Ken? Ken Robinson: Well, I think that those of us who have stood on the stage at the QE II Centre and looked at the people who have come can see that there aren't any slumbering faces out there. There are people making notes, people nudging the person next to them, people looking round when we ask a question. We now have a sort of red and green card system for, do you agree? Don't you agree? Which we sometimes use, which is very interesting, engaging the mood of the room. And I think that the thing about VAC is don't be lazy if we're going to come to VAC. Don't be lazy. If you're coming to VAC, l And jot down what questions you might like to ask those people or what you'd like to learn from that session. Write it down, don't think you can remember it at the time. Ken Robinson: Bring it on a note with you when you come and then you will find, and we all know this, that the networking that happens at the end of the day and in the breaks at VAC it's like a family wedding in a way. I mean, everybody wants to talk to everybody else and it's so valuable. I think everybody who goes away from VAC should have a good few things that day, which they say, “I wouldn't have thought of that if I hadn't been there”, or even, “I disagree with that”, but it's made me realise what my true opinion about that is equally valuable. But don't be a lazy attendee. Come and participate, come and enjoy, come and learn, come and take back benefit to everybody that works with you. Kelly Molson: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think that thing about not being scared to ask questions is really valid as well, Ken, because this happened to me, actually. I went to one of the seminar sessions, and this is back in 2019 and was really inspired by one of the speakers about it was Julez Osbek, who was at Continuum Attractions at the time, and she talked about marketing segmentation, but had a completely different perspective on it in terms of not doing it demographically, just talking about age brackets and things like that. And it was really interesting. I didn't get a chance to ask a question during the seminar, but I found her afterwards and she was very approachable, very happy to answer my question. And then I stalked her on Twitter and got her to come on to the podcast afterwards to talk about it. Kelly Molson: But that's for me, what VAC is about. It's the openness that people are really willing to share. So don't be afraid to go and find the speaker that you've been inspired by and go and ask them the question afterwards, because everyone's really happy to talk about their topic and they're really happy to help people. That's my little key takeaway from it anyway. Right, so it's going to be on Thursday, the 5th October. This podcast episode is launching on the 20th September, so you haven't got long to go and get your tickets, so make sure you do. It is the 5th October, the QE II Conference Centre in Westminster. The website address is vacevents.com. That's Vacevents.com and you can get your ticket there. All of this information will be in the show notes, so don't worry if you didn't get time to scribble that down. Kelly Molson: While I've got you all, though, because you all are in the sector and you've got lots of insights to share. I want to know from each of you what you think that attractions should be focusing on and what 2024 might look like for the sector. Paul, what about you? Start with you. Paul Kelly: So I've been chatting to some of our operators. We have some very large operators around the UK asking them how it's going? And unsurprisingly, you could have said the same question 20 years ago, what's our biggest challenge? It's the weather. It's not actually the cost of living crisis, it's not COVID you can put plans together for those things and you can work on it, but the weather always is a little bit of a challenge. So this summer inverted commerce has been quite hard to focus on what we can deliver when the days have been half decent. Actually, we've done quite well, we always do relatively well, certainly in our sector, I'm sure the others will agree, in a recession. Paul Kelly: So the key seems to be, and I'm going to put it out, I haven't quite found the right words for it, but I'll develop this once I've spoken to a few more. What every attraction for me has to have is an opportunity for people to downgrade what they did slightly. What they're doing is they're ringing it up and saying, "Can't afford to do this, have you got something that's almost like that?" But whether it's a slightly different experience, less time, one day less so whatever the packages are that people are offering, there has to be one rung lower than it was before to still encourage people to come along because they're not able to reach the same heights at the moment that they did previously. But they still want to have that family experience that day out, create those memories. Paul Kelly: All of those things are still relevant. And if you don't have that opportunity, then they'll either go elsewhere or they won't go. So, again, it's managing. So I'm not talking about huge discounts, I'm talking about being relatively clever in what you package and what you put together to make sure they still attend and they still get what they perceive to be value for money. But unless you have that option then I think they won't come. Kelly Molson: Really great advice, Paul. Thank you. Bernard, what about you? Bernard Donoghue: Like Paul, actually, especially since Lockdown ended, but actually for about the last five or six years I've noticed a particular thing which is where visitor attractions have got reserves, and that's a big if by the way, particularly in the course of the last couple of years. Actually, especially since Lockdown ended, but actually for about the last five or six years I've noticed a particular thing which is where visitor attractions have got reserves, and that's a big if by the way, particularly in the course of the last couple of years. So it comes back to Paul's point about kind of ensuring yourself against the excesses of the weather and making sure that you're still particularly a family attractive visitor attractions that'd be one. Second is cost of living crisis, certainly for the average customer, but also the energy costs for visitor attractions too. Bernard Donoghue: Just crazy amounts of money that visitor attractions are now paying i If you're a zoo or an aquarium you can't turn down the temperature of your botanics you're a living reef. So we're going to have to find some way out of that. And that means that actually for many organisations it's going to be as financially challenging over the next twelve months as it has been over the last two. And then I think the third, and this is a continual for me and Kelly, you and I have talked about it before, but it forms the last session of the day at the VAC conference which is diversity and inclusivity. And my feeling is that every visitor attraction should be critically honest about who comes, who doesn't, why they don't come and what are you going to do about it?Bernard Donoghue: And in particular those organisations who in receipt are government money or public money or who had COVID loans from the UK taxpayer. If their visitors don't look like the community in which they're housed, they have a moral question at the heart of their business. That's it. If you want to take public money you need to have an audience that looks like the diversity of the public. And that's a challenge. I get that, I completely get that. But I think that making sure that we are as accessible in every conceivable way, economically, physically. Accessible to people and that they see their stories and themselves reflected in their collections and people and staff and volunteers and board members, I think that's the biggest challenge of the sector as it is indeed to many other sectors. Bernard Donoghue: But I think we're doing some amazing things and we need to shout about it and we need to share and we need to learn from each other. Kelly Molson: Absolutely agree. And that session is going to be a really great session. That's one not to miss. Ken? Ken Robinson: Well, I would say two things. First of all, as far as our visitors are concerned, I think there is a bigger polarisation now than there ever has been between those who have money and can still afford to do things and are not much impacted by the current circumstances, despite everything. And those who haven't and those who haven't have got to find ways of saving money, getting more for their money. There are so many things they can do that are free and alternatives that charged attractions find it difficult. I think we have to remember that the biggest number of attractions in the United Kingdom are heritage based attractions and they weren't purpose built like many of Paul's members, the attractions are purpose built for entertainment. But heritage attractions have got a bigger responsibility or museums housed in historic buildings. Ken Robinson: And all the time they're having to cut their costs and finding life difficult. Money isn't going into maintaining that National Heritage. And that's a real big long term challenge, one that government can't ignore. So government has a vested interest in the health of our businesses because the more healthy they are, the less will fall back on the state eventually. One last thing, I would like to mention Martin Evans and the tourism business. Ken Robinson: For the last I don't know how many years, Martin has been the person who has put together this event for us. He has to do the heavy lifting. He is backed up by our conference organisers, who are also very efficient. And the other person that I wouldn't like to miss from this, because if she could have been here today, you would have got a different flavour, is the wonderful Liz Terry and the support that her organisation. That's Liz's Organisation, her hard work in Leisure Media Group. She publishes Attractions Management magazine. Ken Robinson: She has never asked for anything from this conference and she gives it great support, without which we wouldn't have made 20 years, as I said earlier. And also a big shout and a screen for Liz. Kelly Molson: That is lovely. Thank you. I'm sure Liz will very much appreciate that. We won't forget her. Don't worry, she'll be on the credits for this podcast. I always ask our guests to leave us with a book recommendation for our listeners. So a book that you've loved, a book that you've enjoyed as part of your career growth can be absolutely anything. So, Paul, what would you like to share with us today? Paul Kelly: Oh, I tell you what, books are a bit highbrow for me. Yes, Bernard agrees with that. So I'm from the north, so I used to travel a lot when I was working North America. Commuting a little bit. So I did read a little bit then, but I very quickly swapped over to podcasts things that I download. I watch Silent Witness from the 90's, early 2000s repeatedly. I like Meet Marry Murder, which is one of the cable channels, so I'm quite simple. So I don't really have a book recommendation. I think when I have time to read, I will look forward to reading what somebody else recommends. Kelly Molson: Well, I will take Silent Witness as a recommendation because I love Silent Witness, Paul. Oh, so good. Never miss an episode, ever. So, OK, they go I mean, I can't give it away as a prize, but go and check out Silent Witness if you haven't. Bernard, what's yours? Bernard Donoghue: Well, I've been on this before and I remember my recommendation and it sounds really facile, but it was absolutely true, was Ladybird Books when I was a kid, and then that's how I got into history and heritage and storytelling and absolutely loved them. And I've still got loads of them, which is a bit sad, actually. I'm currently confined to home with a broken ankle. So I've been going through my big Bernard book of books, of all the ones that I haven't got around to reading, and the one that I've enjoyed most and has really surprised me is Lucy Worsley's biography of Agatha Christie. Absolutely fascinating. I thought I knew her. I thought I knew all about her. I know all of her characters, I've watched every conceivable film and TV program, but what a fascinating woman. Bernard Donoghue: So that's the one that I've loved this summer. Kelly Molson: Great recommendation. Yeah. I wondered what were going to get from you, actually, because you've had a lot of time on your hands to go through that book pile. Bernard Donoghue: It was either going to be Agatha Christie or the Argos catalogue. Honestly, it could have gone. Kelly Molson: It's not Christmas yet. You only do the Argos catalogue at Christmas. Ken, over to you for our last recommendation. Ken Robinson: Well, the best book quite hard to get hold of now, but I can supply copies is Action For Attractions, the National Policy Document, written in 2000. But if you want something other than that, then I have just finished reading a book which everyone else read years ago called Sapiens, which is about this thick, that's to say two and a half inches thick. For those of you listening. It's by somebody, I've just had to look him up because I couldn't have remembered it, by Yuval Noah Harari. And it's entitled A Brief History of Humankind. And what's so interesting about it is it goes through segments explaining the great moves that have happened to us humans since we appeared on this Earth. Ken Robinson: And I found the whole thing fascinating to read in one go what took me a long time, particularly the last bit, which talks about how commerce has changed the world and what we're all doing, and that's, after all, what we're doing at VAC. We are engaged in the kind of commerce that is to entertain, amuse and give enjoyment to our visitors, and at the same time keep the heritage of the country going and keep an awful lot of people employed, so I recommend Sapiens. Kelly Molson: Ken, that's a great book. It took me a really long time to read as well, but it is an absolutely fascinating book. I would totally back up your recommendation there. Have you read the next one as well, Homodeus? Ken Robinson: No one a year is enough for me. Kelly Molson: Well, I've got a toddler, so reading doesn't come easy for me right now. But Homodus is next on my list to read because that's the next one on from Sapiens and it's supposed to be a really good read as well. Right, listeners as ever, if you want to win a copy of Ken and Bernard's book, retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want the Vax books and you will be put into a prize drawer to win them. And also, do go and watch Silent Witness, Paul's recommendation, because it is blooming brilliant. I love it. Thank you all so much for coming on to join me today. I've really appreciated it. It's been a fascinating kind of deep dive into the Visitor Attractions Conference. I genuinely love this conference. It is one absolutely not to be missed. Kelly Molson: I mean, there might be a speaker called Kelly at this one. This is so I'll be there. Come and see me too. But no, thank you. It's been wonderful. As I said, we will put all of the info in the show notes. We'll put all of the connections to Paul, Ken and Bernard too. So if you've got any follow up questions that you want to ask them, I'm sure they'd be really happy to help. But it's vapevents.com. Go and grab your ticket now. Thank you, guys. Ken Robinson: And I have to tell you, Kelly, we are going to spend our time at our next committee meeting thinking of impossible questions for you for when you're speaking at VAC.Kelly Molson: Oh, God. Do it. I love impossible questions. Put me on the spot, Ken. I'll enjoy it. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast. 

Journey Gunderson is the Executive Director of the National Comedy Center in Jamestown, NY  – the United States' official cultural institution dedicated to the art of comedy – where she led the planning, strategy, fundraising and creative development for its acclaimed museum and archives. Named one of the Top 50 Museum Influencers worldwide by international museum and attractions authority Blooloop, Gunderson has guided the National Comedy Center in its 21st Century museum design, featuring state-of-the-art technology, interactivity and personalization. Since its opening in 2018, the National Comedy Center was named “Best New Museum” in the country by USA Today, one of the “World's Greatest Places” by TIME magazine and one of “100 Reasons to Love America” by People magazine. Based on the vision of Jamestown native Lucille Ball for her hometown in Western New York to become a destination for comedy, the non-profit Comedy Center showcases comedy's great minds and unique voices in ways that educate, engage and inspire future generations. Journey also serves as Executive Director of the Lucille Ball Desi Arnaz Museum and the annual Lucille Ball Comedy Festival, both of which have reached new heights under her leadership.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends July 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report Survey - https://www.rubbercheese.com/visitor-attraction-website-report-2023 Andy Povey, Managing Director UK & Ireland for ConviousSkip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/andy-poveyConvious: https://www.convious.com/Andy Povey Twitter: https://twitter.com/MrTicketeerAndy Povey LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/Andy Povey joined Convious in November 2021 as managing director for UK and Ireland. Andy has worked in the attractions industry since the early nineties when he began as a ride operator at Chessington World of Adventures. He stayed with the Tussaud's company and later Merlin Entertainments for another 18 years, working in a variety of operational jobs at Rock Circus, Madame Tussauds, and central support, where he was responsible for the group's ticketing systems. After Merlin, he worked for Gateway Ticketing Systems for ten years, opening and then overseeing their UK operation, before transferring his experience to the Convious team. Outside work, Andy enjoys visiting attractions of all shapes and sizes with his family. Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman BathsSkip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/simon-addisonRoman Baths: https://www.romanbaths.co.uk/Simon Addison Twitter: https://twitter.com/addisonsimonSimon Addison LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simonaddison/Simon Addison is the Business Manager, Roman Baths and Pump Room, Bath, and heads the finance and business planning functions at the Roman Baths. He is responsible for business analysis, pricing strategy and leads the benchmarking work.Simon started his career in the financial services industry, where he qualified as a chartered management accountant with the Bank of New York. He moved to the National Trust in 2012, where he held roles in the finance team. Latterly he was responsible for the Trust's finances in Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire. Simon joined the senior leadership team at the Roman Baths in 2017.Simon joined the Board of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions in May 2022. Dominic Jones, CEO of The Mary Rose Museum, and Director of Portsmouth Historic DockyardSkip the Queue episode: https://www.skipthequeue.fm/episodes/dominic-jonesThe Mary Rose: https://maryrose.org/Portsmouth Historic Dockyard: https://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/Dominic Jones Twitter: https://twitter.com/DominicJonesUKDominic Jones LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dominicejones/Dominic Jones was recruited to the Mary Rose in 2019 ago as Chief Operating Officer, and became CEO in 2021.  He brings an excellent background in commercial visitor attractions (Disney, Merlin) and creative visitor experience development.During his time at the Mary Rose, he has already driven an excellent commercial and operational performance and worked closely with previous Chief Executive to create the new Portsmouth Historic Dockyard joint venture with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which launched successfully in August 2020.  Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Today's episode is a little bit different. I speak to Dominic Jones, CEO of the Mary Rose Museum and Director of Portsmouth Historic Dockyard. Simon Addison, Heritage Business Manager at the Roman Baths and Andy Povey, Managing Director, UK and Ireland of Convious. Dom, Simon and Andy share with you the merits of taking part in the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Survey. We talk about how the report has shaped their digital strategies and what that's delivered to their attractions in terms of increased revenue and improved customer experience. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue. Kelly Molson: So I've got Dominic Jones, Simon Addison and Andy Povey here. All past guests, all good friends. We don't need to do icebreakers here because we all know each other pretty well now. But we are going to do a little mini round of unpopular opinions again, because, let's face it, that's why people listen to this podcast. Dominic, I'm going to start with you. Dominic Jones: Why would you start with me? That's so unfair. It's obvious that Simon is your favourite. We can know this is how it works with Bath. He gets all of the good stuff and you come to Dominic first. I used my best unpopular opinion last time when I talked about not mentioning the weather. And I always think my unpopular opinion should be work related. So this one is an interesting one and I wonder whether you will disagree with me, let alone Simon and Andy. But I think when doing discounting, online or in person in our industry. You shouldn't use percentages, and you should use physical pounds, because I think people who use percentages can really confuse people. And also, I just think it's bad form. Kelly Molson: I should throw this one over to Andy, really, because he's pricing expert man, isn't he?Andy Povey: I go that far, Kelly. I actually agree with Dominic, but from a geeky technical perspective.Dominic Jones: Love Andy, always loved Andy. You know what, he's one of those guests that you just love. Simon Addison: Dom, is this just an unpopular opinion because you just can't do percentages, you just want to know how many pounds to take off. Is that what it is? Kelly Molson: Percentages are hard. We're not all like numbers people like you, Simon. Dominic Jones: We're not all born with a calculator. The other thing is that actually, the great British public, our international public, they don't want to be working out. They want to enjoy the day outside. They want to enjoy the Roman Baths, they don't want to be sitting there working out, “What these percentages off mean?”Simon Addison: Dom, you not listen to my podcast on pricing strategy.  We don't discount. Andy Povey: But that was going to be my point. Simon Addison: Yeah, we should be confident enough to the quality of our own products, Dom. That will be my unpopular opinion. We shouldn't discount as an industry, but that's not what I've prepared. Andy Povey: Discounting just seems like a really easy, quick thing for marketeer to do when they're desperate. And I think we should be a little bit more confident about what we're doing and actually use better tools and better ways of communicating the value of what it is that the attraction is doing. So slightly more unpopular, I suppose, Dom, would be let's not do discounts at all. Doesn't matter weather it's 4 pounds or percentages or whatever, then just don't do it.Kelly Molson: So, I'm just gonna come at this from a car boot perspective, which I have to skip randomly. But I love a little bargain. I went to a car boot sale. I'm renovating a cottage in North Norfolk at the moment and I'm trying to furnish it with as much second hand things as possible. So car boot sales are my friend right now, and if I had gone up to the stall and been like, "What's your best price on this?". And they said, "You can have 10% off", I'd have been like, "But what does that mean? It's 05:00 in the morning and my brain can't work this out". But two pounds is yes. Dominic Jones: And it works. And also, there's an element of, you do need to put discounting in, because you've got to look at reaching different audiences. You've got people like Kelly who want to bargain. So you need to put out a decoy pricing in. So they think, "Oh, I'm not paying that for tickets, but I got 2 pounds off, aren't I lucky? I like that.” The problem with percentages is it's people trying to be too clever and it's marketeers trying to be a little bit too clever. And I've never liked it. It's not as bad as the weather. I hate the weather being used as an excuse, but my second one is using percentages in discounting.Kelly Molson: Okay. I'm glad that you changed that quickly to discounting and not marketing because there's a lot of percentages in my report, which we'll discuss later. Right, Simon, moving on to you. Simon Addison: Yeah, okay. It's nothing to do with work. Camping is not a holiday. There's no way that camping is a holiday. But I love the outdoors. We're going on holiday to Pembrokeshire in a couple of months, we'll be outside most of every day. We will walk in the cross paths in whatever the weather. But at the end of the day, we got a little cottage that we are renting to come back to for a shower that haven't got to queue for. We're not sharing a toilet block like camping, washing up, cooking, they're disproportionately hard work, and that's assuming it's sunny. If it rains, it's just miserable. Simon Addison: We can go out and get wet and we don't have to worry about whether we're ever going to get dry for the rest of the week in a tent. The kids will wake up. I haven't finished yet. Kelly. In a tent, they'll wake up at five in the morning when it gets light, and that means just the suffering of the holidays extended over an even longer day. And worst of all, the red wine is too cold and the white wine is too warm. Just miserable. Dominic Jones: Do you not have a fridge when you do camping? Simon Addison:  Dom, I don't camp. You might have got that from there. Dominic Jones: I go camping. I have a fridge. I have a blow up tent. I have all the cons. Kelly Molson: Do you take your bed like the glastonbury dude? Dominic Jones: Well, I try and turn up late to someone else that can turn it all up, but it's very nice. Kelly Molson: Simon, I'm with you on this. I love the outdoors. I'm a big nature girl, but camping is a no no for me. It is miserable. Even glamping. I went glamping on a friend's hen doo once and even that was just a step too far for me. Everything was grubby. It rained, everything was then damp. Everything was damp. Like, everything was damp. It was horrible. Cottage all the way. Hello. I've got one in North Norfolk coming up, available for rent in September. If you're interested in a holiday in beautiful North Norfolk.Dominic Jones: You should go to car boot sales. I believe they've got some great deals at the moment. Kelly Molson: Yeah. They do have some great bargains, Dominic.Simon Addison:  Will you offer me a percentage discount on your cottage in North Norfolk? Kelly Molson: Right, I like that one. I don't think that's going to be that unpopular, if I'm honest. Andy, over to you, final one. Andy Povey: When you first broached the idea of coming back to the podcast, I was really excited and the fact that I was going to join probably my two favourite podcast guests was really exciting. So my unpopular opinion is hopefully it's going to be borne out or proven by this episode of Skip The Queue, in that Dominic Jones isn't going to be number one on the Skip the Queue chart by the end of next week. Dominic Jones: That's so harsh. Now, what have I ever done to hurt you, Andy? Andy Povey: You've not hurt me, Dom, you're not. It's just a little friendly competition. Simon Addison: Is Dom number one? He's never mentioned it. I've literally never heard him talk about. Andy Povey: I don't know where you'd get that from. Dominic Jones: I'm a very shy guy. Am I number one? You're joking me. Really? Kelly Molson: Yes, you do not know?Dominic Jones: We should tell people about this. This needs to get out there before it changes. Kelly Molson: So I said, if Dominic is still number one at Christmas, I'm going to send him a gift. I'm going to send him something commemorative for this at Christmas. So he was number one last Christmas. You were the official Skip the Queue Christmas number one. Dominic Jones: Amazing, I did not know that. Wow.Kelly Molson: Yeah, I know. It is amazing. I'm sure you've not mentioned that before. Andy Povey: You never talked about it. Kelly Molson: We're just at the end of June where we're recording this, so there's still a fair few months to go. We do have our summer break coming up, the season five will start in September. So we've got from September to December for someone to topple you off that number one slot. Dominic Jones: I'm happy to be toppled. And joking aside, both Andy and Simon's podcast were amazing and I love both of them. And actually all of your guests are really I do really love Skip the Queue. It's one of those treats you get to looking to the new Skip the Queue podcast. So if I get toppled from number one, life is okay. Kelly Molson: You are very kind. Right. Thank you for sharing those unpopular opinions. What would be lovely listeners if you follow us over on Twitter, you can just search for Skip the Queue. I'd like to know who's unpopular opinion you preferred the most out of those three, please. Maybe I'll do a little poll on Twitter next week when this podcast episode launches. Right. This is completely unscripted and this is really last minute for the guests and so I'm super grateful that you could come and join me today. Now, it is a bit of an unusual episode for me because I actually don't tend to talk about the stuff that I do or Rubber Cheese does on this podcast. Maybe tiny little snippets of it here and there, but we never kind of dedicate an episode to the things that we do. Kelly Molson: We had a free slot and I thought, I wanted to come on and talk about the initiative that we started last year that is now running in its second year. So bear with me while I explain a little bit of a background about it. So back in May 2022, Rubber Cheese, my agency, launched the first national survey of visitor attraction websites. So I've been asked to speak on a webinar by the lovely team at Kallaway PR, who have also Will Kallaway has been a guest on the podcast. They asked me to come on and talk about cart abandonment and ways that kind of design and UX can help prevent it. So I went away, put my slides together, tried to search for some data that would back up a few theories that I had. Kelly Molson: And that was when I kind of hit a bit of a brick wall. Yeah, brick wall, that's what I'm trying to say. Couldn't find any specific data for the sector. I could find data about cart abandonment rates for all kinds of ecommerce sites, all kinds of pharmaceutical companies. Anything and everything that you could think of was out there except visitor attractions. And I realised that I think the data gets a bit skewed for them because they were kind of getting put into hospitality or tourism in general, or hotels sometimes, I think outdoor and sports. So I wasn't kind of able to back up theories that I had with the data. So that led us to setting up the survey. Kelly Molson: And were really, really lucky to have some amazing bunch of people like the teams at ALVA and ASVA who totally supported the initiative and shared it with their members. Last year, we had a brilliant response. We had 70 leading attractions from up and down the UK take part. And in November last year, were able to launch the very first Visitor Attraction Website Report, which saw us set the first digital benchmarks for the sector. So the sector now has benchmarks for add to basket rate, basket abandonment rate, bounce rate, conversion rate, load times and then the report, because of the kind of questions that we asked, we got loads of key insight into user experience, booking journeys, mobile experience and loads, loads more. Kelly Molson: But more importantly, that report, since its launch, has enabled attractions to make improvements to their websites, which makes their service better for their clients and makes their digital presence better. So it's been such an exciting thing to be involved in and it is a real passion project for me. I've loved every minute of setting it up. This year, we are now in our second year of running it and we've got a brilliant partner in Andy and the team at Convious, which I'm thrilled about. Say thank you. So I've asked you all to come on today to talk a little bit about the survey and the report and what it has enabled you to do. I want to start a little bit with Dominic and Simon, really, and ask them the questions, because they are in the position of being senior leaders in a visitor attraction. Kelly Molson: They've both publicly spoken to me and said that the report has enabled them to do some really exciting things. And I think it's probably important for me to state that you're not our clients, like Rubber Cheese is not. We don't work with either of you from a client perspective. I'd definitely count you as friends and obviously Skip the Queue podcast alumni now as well. So, Simon, let me come to you first. What has the report enabled you to do at Roman Baths and why has it been important for you to kind of take part? What's it delivered for you? Simon Addison: Sure, I think the report came out at a really important time for us because were already in the midst of a website redesign project. So what the report enabled us to do was to look at the findings in the report, the stats in the report, and ensure that were building our new website in a way that optimised that sort of user experience and customer journey. But I think also in visitor attractions, our websites are often trying to do two quite different things. So, on the one hand, it's sort of the gateway to a visit. It's the first place that people go when they're planning their visit and they want to maybe buy a ticket and come to Bath. Simon Addison: At the same time, it's also telling sort of our more engaged audience, information about the collection and information about the history of the site or research that we're undertaking. And we want to be able to really quickly segregate those two audiences, because one audience we want to keep there for as long as possible to delve into the stories that we want to tell them and to really sort of effectively convert them from a very transactional relationship, which is buying a ticket to one of more of a supporter where they might donate in future. They'll become engaged in our program. And so designing a website that on the first page helps to divert visitors from that sort of more engaged, we're here to learn from, “We want to buy a ticket for Saturday”, and sort of get them on their journey quickly, efficiently and as few clicks as possible. Simon Addison: So I think having that endorsement of the importance of the user, the journey, how many clicks is optimal before people start abandoning and giving up, that was so helpful in the way that were designing the website. Kelly Molson: Amazing. That is such a good testimony for what we've done. And obviously we can't do any of that unless people take part in the survey and submit their data. And so we can understand and learn how websites are performing in the first place. But for me, it's really exciting to hear that because I guess having those kind of baseline benchmarks is a starting point for the industry. And that's, for me, what was missing completely in that we can talk about how we want them to improve and how we want the sector to move on. And I think, Andy, we've had a conversation before where we kind of feel like the sector is a little bit behind, where other industries are probably about four or five years, potentially behind in some areas. Andy Povey: I'd go even further than that, Kelly.Kelly Molson: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Andy Povey: Generally people don't pick up the phone to me and ask me to come and talk about their ecommerce platforms if they're perfectly happy with what they're doing. So maybe I'm seeing a different side of the market. But it astounds me how many attractions there are that aren't able to monitor their performance, to look at their conversion rates, to look at their basket abandonment rates, all that kind of stuff. It's astounding, which is why I'm really happy to be working with you on the survey this year. Kelly Molson: Okay, well, let me go to Andy now. So, Andy, introduce yourself for your role at Convious.Andy Povey: So I'm responsible for everything we do with Convious in the UK and Ireland. So job title is MD, UK and Ireland. Kelly Molson: So Andy and I got introduced quite a while ago, actually, now. I feel like it was a Ticketing Professionals Conference. Was it there? Andy Povey: I think it was Dominic Jones that introduced us at the Museums and Heritage. Kelly Molson: Yes, it was Museums and Heritage. It was.Andy Povey: And it did indeed. Dominic Jones: I can't believe you forgot that. Kelly Molson: Yes, it was with the Sarcophagus.Dominic Jones: I brought two great people together. I mean, I feel like I don't get the credit for this introduction. Thank you. Kelly Molson: I'm sorry. Dominic Jones: You do? Kelly Molson: Yeah, it was you. You're actually really good at introducing people.Dominic Jones: Talented people. Talented people to each other. Kelly Molson: Yeah. You grabbed me at this year's Eminet show and introduced me to multiple people, actually. It was very kind of you. What a kind man you are. Dominic Jones: It's a pleasure. Andy Povey: Isn't he? Kelly Molson: So this year, well, I mean, I guess this is thanks to you, Dominic. So Dominic introduced Andy and I.Dominic Jones: You are welcome, by the way. Welcome. Kelly Molson: Why is it important for Convious to be part of what we're doing this year with the report?Andy Povey: Well, it's actually more important to me on a personal level, I think, Kelly. I'm a massive fan of attractions have been for my whole working life, which is there have been quite a lot of years in that so far, and I just want to see attractions doing better than they do at the moment. We've shared lots of conversations about really awful booking experiences, not just for attractions. Booking tickets to my kids, after school clubs. Personal bear of mine is dreadful. Don't ever do it if you don't have to. Andy Povey: So I find that really frustrating. It upsets me to see attractions getting it wrong and some get it really wrong. So having some benchmarks, having some industry standards where people can go, actually, we're not doing what we should be doing. And why aren't we able to measure that? And what does it mean to our business by not measuring that? It's really important. Kelly Molson: It is really important. It's been phenomenal to have the support of Convious and specifically Andy and Mirabelle, who I've worked very closely with over the past few months on this project. What it's also allowing us to do, and hopefully this will grow year on year, is that it's opening up to a European audience as well. So, Andy, Convious is a Dutch company originally. Andy Povey: Yes. So we're headquartered in Amsterdam. Germany is actually our largest market in terms of volume of customers, but we also have significant presence in France and Belgium, Netherlands and Bedelux area. Kelly Molson: So we have had a number of submissions this year from European countries. And that's all down to Convious. Andy Povey: Thank you. Kelly Molson: We would hope over the next few years that this can start to grow and grow and become something that isn't solely focused on the UK market, which would be really exciting. We did actually have a Canadian zoo take part yesterday, which was quite exciting. So the message is slowly starting to spread out worldwide as well. An international survey. That's exciting, isn't it? Andy Povey: Absolutely, yeah. Dominic Jones: It was a game changer. That's what you've done. You've created something that is a true game changer. I remember getting very excited about the results and sitting at the back of the London Transport Theatre or wherever you launched them, and then just getting depressed every single slide. I was like, “Oh, no, we don't do that, or, we don't do that well, or, that's not great”. But it was fantastic because actually, for the first time ever, were able to compare ourselves and think, “Right, so if this is the industry standard, how can we make that better? How can we adapt that at the Mary Rose in Portsmouth Historic Dockyard?” and things like the five steps to make a booking and all this other sort of stuff that you were putting out. And I remember writing my book and thinking, “This is awful. This is absolutely awfu”l because we are performing way worse than that. We're still not fixed it.Dominic Jones: We've got some money to look at websites and we put some new websites in and we're still developing it. But even little things like we changed and had a microsite last summer, we had one of our best summers ever, but we did that because of your data. We were looking and thinking, “We've got too many steps to making a booking or It takes too long to load this page, or actually we need to.” So I think you've really been a massive game changer, and if now you're getting the Canadians involved, I mean, it's going to be fantastic. I can't wait to see what they've got to say. Dominic Jones: So I do genuinely think you've made a big difference and I can't wait to see this year's results and next year's results. And I hope this is something you keep doing forever because you've made a real difference. You really have. Kelly Molson: Dominic, you're so kind. That's really kind. Thank you. That's amazing feedback. What I love about what you said is that you've actively been able to take the data that people have supplied and go, “We are here. We're not performing to that point yet. But if we make these changes, we can get to that point.” And that's what I love. This is what this is all about. It's about marginal gains. It's about making those tiny little 1% improvements every day and getting better and better. We couldn't ask for more. That's what we hoped. Dominic Jones: And before I get kicked and hit by all my colleagues, there were lots of things that were doing great as well. But actually, you don't talk about them, do you? Don't say, “Oh, well, we're doing okay because we're very British, we only really talk about the things that we want to improve or we're not doing right.” But I do think it's a phenomenal game changer and it's the sort of report that you can use as a toolkit to really sort of check where you are and where you want to be. And I genuinely can't wait for the next one. I hope we get a preview for doing this podcast. Did we get an early release? Is that part of the deal? Simon, did you sign something like that? Simon Addison: Yeah, signed it all. Dom, did you not get the paperwork? Dominic Jones: Of course you did. He's got people. Kelly Molson: If you've taken part in the survey, you will get it exclusively before it is released to the general public. So, I mean, I can confirm that you both have, which is a relief. Dominic Jones: Of course we have. We're early adopters, we love it. Simon Addison: I did check before we came on this afternoon that we completed it because I thought that would be really awkward. Dominic Jones: You probably won the Convious prize, right, for being one of the people that completed it all. The 100th person to complete. I saw all that online, honestly.Andy Povey: I think everyone got one by you, Dom. I don't know what it was you've done to upset Mirabelle in our marketing team. Dominic Jones: I think you're taking this podcast thing a little bit too seriously. Simon Addison: Just to go back to what you were saying, Kelly, about marginal gains, I think that is where the value of this is, because most of us have got websites that are capable of selling a ticket. But when you operate a visitor attraction as successful as Dom's, or you get hundreds of thousands of people going to your website or to your attraction each year, millions of people to the website. Simon Addison: And if you can achieve a 1% shift in a customer behaviour, the returns on that are really significant. So you don't have to suddenly come up with a revolutionary new website. You have to focus on what are the things that are just holding you back a little bit, removing those pain points from the customer journey. The uplift is so significant of just achieving a small percentage change. I know Dom doesn't like percentages, but that is what we're talking about here. Dominic Jones: No, with that terms, I do, absolutely. And you're absolutely right. And even little things like how it looks on a mobile as opposed to looking on a desktop.Simon Addison: Exactly.Dominic Jones: Change our way of thinking. And you've got to keep doing it because that's what's going to make this industry and where we all work and the amazing places that we work in even better. It's brilliant. Kelly Molson: Well, we absolutely will continue to do it. So this is the second year that we're running it and we have no intention of stopping. Just going back to what you said, Simon. I think what you said about making what you already have better in terms of your website, I think that's a really important point to push is that it has been a really weird few years. And this year I think all of us were kind of hoping this would be a year of normality. And let's face it really hasn't, has it? It's been another odd one. Kelly Molson: So we've started off the year, there's an awful war happening, there's a terrible cost of living crisis, there's all kinds of stuff happening that is affecting attractions. Yet again, affecting all of us, really, but affecting attractions in terms of whether people are going to come, how much they're going to spend, what they're going to do. We know that marketing budgets were going to be probably drastically cut this year by at least 15, 20%. That was the message that was being given when I attended the ALVA Heads of Marketing meeting before Christmas. So I think that being able to look at the report and use it to implement changes to what you already have is really important. You may not have the budget to go out and start again. Kelly Molson: You don't necessarily need to, but if there's improvements that you can be made to your site in terms of the performance or the speed, all of those things are going to help. They're all things that will add up over time and ultimately make the performance of it better and make the customer experience better. So think that's quite an important message to talk about. Another thing to add is that this year we're doing it again. We're asking the same questions that we did last year because obviously we need the same data set, but it's more so it's bigger and better. We'll get feedback on whether that's too much for people, but we're asking questions around Usability, whether you're collecting feedback. We're asking questions around kind of promotions and discounts and how people are measuring their traffic sources and whether they're doing user tests. Kelly Molson: So there's so much more that's going to be in it from this year. And one really exciting thing which you touched on, Dominic, is that everybody that takes part in the survey will get exclusive access to the report before it's made public. But actually, as soon as you've filled in the survey this year, you get a little mini report. And what it does is benchmark you where you are now against the benchmarks from last year. So it will give you a little report to identify how your website is performing based on last year's benchmarks that we identified. Now that's really important. So you could be underperforming, you might be performing too, you might be overperforming, you might be doing better than those benchmarks from last year, and those benchmarks may change dramatically from last year to this year, we don't know yet. Kelly Molson: So that's like a little added bonus. If you're on the fence about taking part, you will get something that's actionable as soon as you've taken part in the survey this year. This year the report will launch towards the end of September. We will release dates and be a bit more specific once we've closed the survey. But this episode is going to launch on the 5th July. That means that you've just got one week left to take part. So one week left before the survey closes on the 12th of July. So if you are thinking about it, stop thinking about it. Go and do it. It will literally take 20 minutes. You're going to need your Google Analytics open or other analytics tool that you use. You can find the link to the survey in our show notes of this show. Kelly Molson: You can head over to Rubbercheese.com and you will find the link to it on the home page. Or you can search for the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report and you will find it. You can head over to Convious and you will find it on Convious website. It's everywhere. Go find it. Do it. Take part. These guys did it. Made a big difference. Dominic Jones: Best 20 minutes of your life. Just do it. Just do it. Honestly, what else can you do? So much value in 20 minutes. There's not much else you can do.Kelly Molson: I worry about how you spend your time. If that's the best 20 minutes of real life. Dominic, that's a concern, but, I mean, he's not wrong. Dominic Jones: I mean at work, not like in real life. I do amazing things in my normal life. Kelly Molson: If you could talk to all of the visitor attractions that are listening now, what would you say to them to encourage them to go and take part? Simon Addison: I would say that if you're not already looking at the things you need to fill in, then you should be looking at them anyway. So you say it takes 20 minutes, Kelly, to fill them in? I'll be honest. I didn't fill them in for the Roman Baths, our Digital Marketing officer did. And I think Dom's blank face when you're talking about the mini report also tells me that he didn't fill it in for Mary Rose either. But it's 20 minutes. But it's all data that you should be looking at. And if you're not looking at it's probably a prompt that you or your teams need to be looking at it anyway. Simon Addison: And getting that report allows you to either make the case with your trustees or your board to invest if you need investment, or it provides an endorsement of the quality of the website and the offer that you've got. Either one of those things is really useful and we know how hard it is to get investment. Kelly, you talked about marketing budgets at the moment. If you want to get money to invest in your website, having this evidence will help convince your CEO or your Trustees that's the right thing for you to do. And equally, if you don't need to, then this is confirmation of that. So that's what I'd say. Kelly Molson: Thank you. That is brilliant. How about you, Dom? Dominic Jones: I'd agree and I'll come clean. I didn't fill it in either, but someone did do it. But it's not the filling in, it's the reading it and using it that counts. Right? That's what matters. It's about receiving it and doing something with it. I actually think it's really useful to get as much benchmark data as possible in this industry. And actually what you do is you give us this for websites, you give it for ecommerce and it's fantastic. I wish there were more people doing it in all the areas of our industry because actually this visitor attraction to get benchmarks is quite rare. So it's fantastic to get that. So I really appreciate that. And I would say if you're listening and you work in a visitor attraction, why wouldn't you do this? Dominic Jones: Because like Simon says, you can understand where you are. You can use it for funding, you can use it towards getting revenue, you can use it towards recruiting some extra people in your team. You can use it to how you performance manage your team. You can use it for so many things. It's such a good document. I can't stress enough, I might not have filled out the form, but I definitely read it and I definitely used it and I do definitely love it.Kelly Molson: Wow. So appreciative of your fabulous comments. Thank you both. Andy, what would you add to that? Andy Povey: Well, I don't know that I can, but really it shouldn't really take you that long to complete this because you should be all over this kind of data anyway. If you're a digital offer in any business and if you're not looking at this kind of stuff, then it's probably time to really start managing your business in a much better way. And really, just to reiterate the point, that an incremental improvement, just a 0.5% improvement in the results in this kind of area can deliver you hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds extra additional revenue over a twelve month period. So what else is that you could do in your business in 20 minutes that's going to potentially deliver that kind of result? Kelly Molson: Wow. There you go. I think you've said it all. Well done. Thank you. I really appreciate this. I threw this at you literally a few days ago to come on and they've had no time to prepare whatsoever. So I'm super grateful that you've given up a little bit of time for me to talk about it today. This is something that I'm so passionate about. I bloody love this podcast. I'm so lucky that I get to talk to such lovely people. And I think, like you've all said, just like, I mean, like echoing what Andy said, being able to make this industry better is something that is literally like at the core of me right now. I just want to see good people doing really good things and having really good results. Kelly Molson: So if everyone could please just go out and fill the Blooming survey and I'd be really grateful. Thank you. Right, books. Have you all prepared a book today? I didn't ask you to. I've got a book, but I feel like you might have. Right, throw it out. Dominic Jones: So I've got a book called The Alignment Advantage Transform Your Strategy, Culture and Customers to Succeed. Now, I love a good strategy book, so the last time I was on the podcast I recommended Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, a great book about strategy. I did bill it as the best book on strategy. Scrap that. It's the second best book on strategy. This is now the best book on strategy because it talks about how you have to align your culture and as a strategic enabler, your strategy and your experience. And for people who listen to Skip the Queue or fill out the Rubber Cheese Website Survey or work with Convious, one of the best people to work with in the world, they will love this book. It is incredible. The only book to read on Strategy by Richard Nugent, The Alignment Advantage. Fantastic. Dominic Jones: There is also an interview with a great guy from the Mary Rose in chapter two, I can't remember his name. I think it rhymes with Dominic Jones. I can't remember it fully, but it's very good to read.Kelly Molson: I knew that there was something like that coming. I knew, Dominic. Amazing. Thank you for another number one strategy book. Simon, what would your book be and have you featured in it? Simon Addison: I can say I have not featured in this book. Unlike Dom, I don't read a lot of business and leadership books. I tend to read for escapism and relaxation. But I have picked a workbook and it's probably the only workbook I've gone back to and reread portions of. And it's called Leadership: Plain and Simple by Steve Radcliffe. The book was a foundation of a leadership course that I did when I was at the National Trust, which was called Future Engage, Deliver. And it was centered on the idea that in order to be an effective leader, you need to have clarity of your vision for the future. You need to engage your colleagues and your teams in that future and then collectively, you need to work together to deliver it. And it sort of broke that strategy and leadership piece into those three distinct portions. Simon Addison: And it had some really helpful models in there for self reflection, for getting meaningful feedback from teams and developing techniques to engage stakeholders in the delivery of your vision. I would recommend that obviously it's not the first or the second best book on leadership, but maybe it's the third. Who knows?Kelly Molson: Love that. What's really interesting is these books. Both neither of those books have been recommended on the podcast before, so I always like it when a new ones come up because I add it onto my little wish list on Amazon. Dominic Jones: I'm going to read that book. I've not heard of that one, Simon, but that sounds amazing. I do love the book recommendations. I do the same. I go buy them. Except for the Harry Potter one.Kelly Molson: I already had and you knocked Geoff off as well, didn't you? Dominic Jones: Did I knock Geoff off? Kelly Molson: Yeah. Geoff was number one for quite a while. Dominic Jones: Is he no longer number one? Skip the Queue. Kelly Molson: No, did I not tell you that you are number one?Simon Addison: Once you edit this out, kelly, this is going to be a really short podcast episode. Kelly Molson: I'm leaving all of this in. Andy, what about you? Have you got a book that you'd like to share? Andy Povey: A book I'll keep going back to is The Experience Economy by Joe Pine. And I don't know whether someone else has recommended this in the past, but for me, that whole life chain value thing, the graph where you talk about a thing becoming a commodity and everything moving into the sort of experience space, really fits with what we're doing in our industry. It really fits with what we do at Convious. The reason I enjoy what we do. Kelly Molson: It's a good book. I'm going to ask Joe if he'll come on the podcast. Andy Povey: So I saw him talking at the Blooloop conference a few years ago. Absolutely compelling. Dominic Jones: Could he maybe talk at the January? Why don't we get him on 2025 podcast? Let's do that, right? Kelly Molson: Yeah, let's discuss it off the pod. Yeah, we'll discuss that later. Thank you all. I'm so grateful. Oh, as ever. Sorry, listeners. If you want to win a copy of those books, head over to our Twitter feed. You know what to do. Retweet this podcast announcement. But more importantly, go and fill in the survey. Be so grateful. Andy Povey: Fill in the survey. Kelly Molson: Fill in the survey. We have got, actually a podcast exclusive. Let me tell you how many attractions have taken part so far. Last year, 2022, 70 attractions from up and down the country took part. This year with a week well, actually, it's two weeks today, but a week to go. When this podcast launches, 129 attractions have taken part. So we've nearly doubled on last year. I'm so thrilled. But, yeah, if we could get that to 140, that would be amazing. Imagine 140 attractions being able to improve their websites this year, being able to improve their customer service, being able to improve their bottom line. That's what it's all about. Thanks, guys. You've been amazing. Simon Addison: Thanks, Kelly. Dominic Jones: Incredible.Andy Povey: Thank you, Kelly. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

EPISODE NOTESSkip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese. Download the Rubber Cheese 2022 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the first digital benchmark statistics for the attractions sector. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.  If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast Competition ends January 31st 2023. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.   Show references: https://www.convious.com/https://twitter.com/MrTicketeerhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/ https://blooloop.com/technology/news/convious-consumer-pricinghttps://blooloop.com/technology/news/convious-digital-trends-webinar/ Andy Povey joined Convious in November 2021 as managing director for UK and Ireland. Andy has worked in the attractions industry since the early nineties when he began as a ride operator at Chessington World of Adventures. He stayed with the Tussaud's company and later Merlin Entertainments for another 18 years, working in a variety of operational jobs at Rock Circus, Madame Tussauds, and central support, where he was responsible for the group's ticketing systems. After Merlin, he worked for Gateway Ticketing Systems for ten years, opening and then overseeing their UK operation, before transferring his experience to the Convious team. Outside work, Andy enjoys visiting attractions of all shapes and sizes with his family. Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in, or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Andy Povey, Managing Director, UK and Ireland for Convious. Andy shares with us the five key digital trends attractions shouldn't miss out on and research into dynamic pricing for theme parks and tourist attractions. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Andy Povey, it's so lovely to have you on Skip The Queue podcast today. Thanks for coming on.Andy Povey: Thank you. It's my absolute pleasure.Kelly Molson: And I know you've been a bit poorly. So let's just state now, poor old Andy has had COVID, and he's got a little bit of a cold today. So be kind to him.Andy Povey: It's man flu.Kelly Molson: It's always man flu, Andy. Right. As ever, we're going to start with icebreakers and I've got a really good one for you. So how would you describe your job to a three year old?Andy Povey: Oh, to a three year old? Well, I've got eight year old twin girls. So as far as they're concerned, daddy gets to go to zoos and theme parks without them, which is not brilliant. But no, I make computers work, I suppose.Kelly Molson: Make computers work for cool attractions like zoos and theme parks. I think that's perfect.Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: Good job, Andy. We'll talk more about that later. Okay. What one thing would you make a law that isn't one already?Andy Povey: That's a really difficult one.Kelly Molson: They're always difficult, Andy. It's always.Andy Povey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're being mean to me. Yeah. Oh, I'm in our office in Amsterdam at the moment, so I'm traveling a bit. And I do have a theory that you should never, ever fly from an airport where people feel it's appropriate to turn up in flip flops.Kelly Molson: Well, even if you're traveling back from holiday and it's a bit warm.Andy Povey: So the law would be, if I'm at the airport, and I'm waiting in the back to get to Carousel, you need to get out of my way.Kelly Molson: I think that's fair. Everyone goes a bit savage at the airport. Don't you think? You know when you go into London, and there's a certain way that you act on the tubes to get to places. You've got to walk really, you've got to be very determined, haven't you?Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: That's how I feel when I go into London. I've got my London walk on. And I feel it's a bit like that at the airports as well. Everyone's all in it for themselves. They don't care about anyone else around them. It's all just-Andy Povey: No, no. Get out of my way.Kelly Molson: Yeah. It's a good law, Andy. Right. Everyone has to get out of Andy's way at the airport. That's the law. Nice. Okay. And this one, I've asked a few people this one. Because I really like this one. What would you buy as you exit through the gift shop?Andy Povey: I'm not really into things. I'm much more of an experience kind of person. So if there was another experience, or something to enhance the experience, then it would be something like that.Kelly Molson: Okay. Good answer.Andy Povey: Yeah, something to enhance the experience.Kelly Molson: Good answer. I like that, Andy. And we'll talk about that a little bit more later as well. What would your twin girls pick? What would be their things from the theme park?Andy Povey: Oh, cuddly toys. You must be the same. Shelves and shelves and shelves of these things in the house.Kelly Molson: My daughter is doing incredibly well from all of the visits though that I have been on recently. Yeah. Let me tell you the gift shops, I've been [inaudible 00:03:28].Andy Povey: Squish 'em alls.Kelly Molson: To the gift shops. Yeah.Andy Povey: What do they call them?Kelly Molson: Squishy animals, all sorts of stuff. She's now got from various attractions that she's never been to that I'll have to take her to, to say thank you.Andy Povey: No, when mine were the same age as your daughter, I went to Orlando a few times for IAAPA. And I would buy them Mickey Mouse and Mini Mouse cuddly toys, and bring them home. But because they'd never seen anything to do with Disney, these were just referred to as Boy Mouse and Girl Mouse.Kelly Molson: Oh, bless them.Andy Povey: They didn't know what Mickey Mouse was.Kelly Molson: Oh. And I'm sure they do very well now.Andy Povey: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.Kelly Molson: All right, Andy, what is your unpopular opinion? What have you prepared for us?Andy Povey: I actually did a poll of my colleagues in the office, because I was looking at something to do with Eurovision, and actually trying to work out whether my opinion was unpopular or not. And unfortunately it wasn't. So Eurovision massively overrated is my opinion of this.Kelly Molson: Gosh. So-Andy Povey: I knew we were going to fall out over this.Kelly Molson: Well, it's not just me. There's a lot of listeners that you are going to make very unhappy about that statement, Andy. Not to mention Rachel MacKay, who, if she hears this, I don't know how she's going to feel the next time she sees you. So that is for you to feel awkward about.Andy Povey: You asked for an unpopular opinion.Kelly Molson: Okay, let's put it out there. How does everyone feel about Eurovision? I feel like this is definitely going to be an unpopular one, Andy. Thank you. Right. Okay. Andy, so you have got over two decades in the attraction sector, self proclaimed attractions industry nerd. I think that's fair. Tell us a little bit about your background, and how you ended up working in the sector.Andy Povey: A colleague did tell me the other day that it's actually 30 years, and I was trying to hide away from this. Yes, I am old. So many, many years ago, started a temporary seasonal job at Chessington World of Adventures, having left college without a clue about what I wanted to do when I grew up. My first job was driving the train around the park at Chessington, and absolutely fell in love with the attractions industry. And then stayed with Merlin or The Tussauds Group, which then became Merlin Entertainment for about 18 years, and doing all sorts of different jobs. So that's how I fell into it. And I've never looked back.Kelly Molson: It's a really common theme actually, from guests that come on who've gone to work in a theme park or an attraction as what they probably thought would be a temp job for a while. And then absolutely loved every minute of it, and then have just risen through the ranks. Whether they've stayed in one group or they've moved around. But they've just continued to learn, and learn, and learn, and progress. And that comes across so frequently with our guests. It sucks you in.Andy Povey: It absolutely does. And it's a great industry. And I love the fact that you can build a career within our industry from starting right at the bottom, and just work your way up. I think it's a testament to the industry.Kelly Molson: What kind of roles did you work in then as you moved your way up?Andy Povey: So I did four years at Chessington as a ride operator. Then went to Rock Circus, which was a subsidiary of Madame Tussauds in the Trocadero and Piccadilly Circus in Central London. It was there for four years, and we were told that someone from head office was going to come and install the till system and tell me how to make it work. At which point I went, "Oh, maybe not." So I went and became that person.Kelly Molson: Oh, you were a tills man?Andy Povey: Yeah, I was. It was a tills man. So I started in ticketing before the internet.Kelly Molson: Yeah.Andy Povey: Before anybody really knew what the internet was, and then moved to Madame Tussauds for a short period of time, and then to what was Tussauds Group head office in Tottenham Court Road looking after all of the till systems for the organisation. And then did that for about 10 years, and then left, went and joined the supplier that we were using, Tussauds, so gateway ticketing. I was with them for 10 years. Basically convinced them to set up a UK office, and I ran the UK office for 10 years. And then after COVID, decided it was time to go and do something else. So came across Convious, the company I work for now, and whose office I'm sitting in today. And that's it, really. That's a very brief summary of Andy's career.Kelly Molson: Excellent career. I'd like to hear a little bit about Convious. So I am aware of you, and I think that most people at the moment would be aware of Convious. They're everywhere. Convious are everywhere.Andy Povey: Yeah. We're bright pink, and we shout a lot.Kelly Molson: And they're pink.Andy Povey: Don't know what they do.Kelly Molson: You have fantastic stands, events that we all attend. But I think there's something really different about Convious. Can you just tell us a little bit about it?Andy Povey: So it's not just what Convious are doing. There's something going off in the whole world of technology that the sales force are referring to as the fourth industrial revolution. And so competing with third industrial revolution from sort of 1949 to 2010, the fourth industrial revolution's all about data. And five years ago everyone was talking about big data. That was the buzzword that was everywhere. So we were just storing loads and loads of information. The fourth industrial revolution we're seeing now is actually doing things with that data. Because there's no point in just paying for a load of storage somewhere, if you're not going to do anything with it.So what we're doing at Convious with that data. It's really sitting on top of our partner's websites rather than being a page that you go off to, and gathering as much data as we possibly can. So we pull in long range weather forecasts, we're pulling in all sorts of information about how people are interacting with the website. And ultimately just using it all to drive sales and increase sales for our partners.Kelly Molson: I know that the weather thing is a really small thing of the system. It's a tiny thing, but it's the thing that sticks in my head the most. Because I just think it's blooming genius. I know. It's such a small thing, but it's such a clever thing to have.Andy Povey: It really does affect attendance at so many attractions. And I love Dom Jones when he was talking to you. I love his take on the weather, of actually, if you're going to blame the weather, you should also give the weather credit when you have a great attendance.Kelly Molson: I agree. Yeah, I love that quote from Dom. So it is really interesting in terms of what Convious do. Because I think that one of the things that attractions could be better at is using the data that they already have in more sophisticated ways. And the Convious platform allows you to do that really easily. Because let's face it, marketing teams are overstretched in attractions. And they can be quite small at times as well. We had Danielle and Ross on from Drayton Manor a few weeks ago. And the two of them pretty much head up their department. And I know they're a head of marketing as well. But that's a small team for what is a significant attraction.Andy Povey: Yes. Yeah, yeah.Kelly Molson: So anything that we can help to put in place for those teams is ultimately going to make it easier for them, and make it better. And they'll be able to understand better what their customers are actually doing.Andy Povey: And ultimately it's about making it easier for the customer. There's a whole focus on personalization at the moment, again, across the industry. So rather than it being one too many, it's one personalisation. And looking at, if we know something about the customer, so take me for example. I buy family tickets, and I love industrial heritage. So Google knows that about me, and Google will tell every website that I go to, that's who I am. So if we've got a family offering as an attraction, then let's promote the family offering. If you've got an industrial heritage offering, let's promote the industrial heritage offering to the people who've identified that they are. Ultimately it's about giving people what they want.Kelly Molson: And that's the really smart bit, isn't it? That the system can identify the person that's coming, and show them the things that are more relevant to them from that attraction. Then the standard things that they might like, they might buy. But actually this is the one that they really want, because that's connecting with them at a completely deeper level. That's some of the stuff that I want to talk about today. So one of the things that's good about Convious, and I'd like to hope that Rubber Cheese are aligned in this way as well, is that when we think about talking to attractions, we're giving them things that are useful. I think, that ultimately from any marketing perspective is how useful can you be? This content that I'm putting out, what value does it bring somebody? And how can they engage with it? And is it helpful for them?And that's what I feel Convious does really well. And I see a lot of your articles on Blooloop for example. And a month or so ago there was an article about the five key digital trends for attractions as we roll into 2023. And I think that this is a really good time to talk about these things. Because people are doing a lot of planning at this time of year. They're in Christmas, which this year feels very busy, because it's the first Christmas people can-Andy Povey: It certainly does.Kelly Molson: It's the first one though, if you think about it, that people can actually go out and feel comfortable that the things they're going to book, they can actually do. Last year we still had that Omicron. Do we do big groups? Do we just stay inside a little bit longer? But this year feels busy. And I think that attractions will get through Christmas, have a brilliant Christmas. And then January will be that time when they go "Right, what are we doing? This is what we need to focus on now." So this is very pertinent. It comes at a great time. One of the key trends that you just mentioned was personalization. So you talked about making things relevant to your audience. Really, really relevant. Are we talking about exclusive here as well? Because we talk about that quite a lot. Exclusive events and things that they can only get at certain places.Andy Povey: Yeah, I think so. And I think that's one of the things that, not just around digital, I think it's one of the things that the attractions world will do to really weather the economic storm that we're going through at the moment. Generally what we've seen over the past 12 months is that if you've got a short event, or a short-term event, it tends to sell out. So looking at what you as an attraction can do that creates that exclusive event. So if you are a park, can you get Peppa Pig on site for two or three days? Can you get Paw Patrol there for a couple of days? So giving people their incentive to come, and come again, and come again. So not just being, this is the six weeks of the summer at my theme park. This is the Peppa Pig, fortnight, although two days. And this is the Paw Patrol for two days. So improving that repeat visitation.Kelly Molson: And what you talked about data, I guess that comes back to really understanding your audience.Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: So you need to be collecting the data to understand what those people want in the first phase to then be able to tailor your offering to what they like.Andy Povey: 100%. 100%. There's no value in creating a Peppa Pig experience if none of your visitors have got kids. A great way to waste a load of money.Kelly Molson: I don't need to see Peppa.Andy Povey: No. No, no, no.Kelly Molson: You can keep Peppa. So you talked earlier about what you like, and that Google knows that about you. How do attractions tap into that? I guess through advertising, right?Andy Povey: Well it's not just advertising. It's actually looking at... And you did the survey a few weeks ago about the attractions, and understanding Google Analytics, that kind of stuff. It's free. You do not need to pay to get Google Analytics data. It's there for you. And there are so many venues, and so many prospective clients that I'm talking to now, that don't have access to it. It's almost criminal. There are still vendors out there that don't share this information. So I suppose to come back and answer your question is, go and look at the data that you've got. Google Analytics will give you a view of everybody that's coming to your website.Kelly Molson: Find out who they are, what they like, and then give them what they want.Andy Povey: Well, yeah. But tailor something for them. So if you've got a large foodie audience, then look at your catering.Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really good advice.Andy Povey: Can you put on a Heston Blumenthal event, or a Jamie Oliver event?Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really great advice actually, taking it to that deeper level. The second key digital trend was about online and offline, which we're talking a lot about online and offline as well. So this isn't just about digital, but I guess one of the things that was mentioned was about digital experiences. And I guess you can talk about that from a pre-visit perspective. How do you engage people digitally before they turn up at your event? But also, once they're at your venue too. So digital experiences that deepen or extend the experience that you were already giving them. Can you think of any really good examples of that, that we could talk about from an attractions perspective?Andy Povey: That's really difficult. The reason that we go to attractions as human beings, is because we like doing physical things. We want to be with our friends. We want to be with our family. Particularly after COVID, it's has been difficult to go and see granny, and whatever. So it's safer to go and visit a park, or to visit a garden than it is to possibly all sit around in the lounge, having a cup of tea. I can give you an unusual example, I suppose. The Forestry Commission did something a few years ago with The Gruffalo, and it's an augmented reality thing.Kelly Molson: Yes.Andy Povey: So as a parent, you could sit your child on a tree trunk and hold up your phone, and the augmented reality would superimpose an image of the Gruffalo sitting next to your child. They pulled it within six months, because the parent is having this experience of looking at their child through a phone. Whereas the child's sitting there going, "Well, mummy and daddy's just on their phone again."Kelly Molson: "Where's the Gruffalo?"Andy Povey: "Mummy and daddy's just on their phone again. What are we doing?"Kelly Molson: Yeah.Andy Povey: So in that situation it's about getting back to reality, rather than being digital. So it's a really fine line. At what point does an app, or a park map, or something like that, at what point does it enhance your visit, versus intruding on your visit?Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's a really good question. It's really funny, because when you mentioned that, I was like, that's a perfect example of this, how digital interacts with nature. But you're right, aren't you? Because the child doesn't interact with it. They just see you pointing a phone at them again, or you interacting with your phone and not with them. I hadn't considered that, and what message that actually sends out to them while they're outside in nature as well.Andy Povey: Yeah. And so I'm not a [inaudible 00:18:44] who's going, no, no, digital should be nowhere near your experience. It should be there, and it should be enhancing. But actually really understand that it is enhancing. So if you talk to the guys from BeWILDerwood, I know there was a podcast with Hannah. They delight on the fact that you can't get a mobile phone signal in Norfolk. Because you should put your phone away. You're here to have a day out with the kids.Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's a really good point. I actually quite like it when I can't get any mobile signal, because it means that I'm present.Andy Povey: Yes, absolutely.Kelly Molson: It means I'm not worrying about having to check something. I'm actually not even that concerned about, oh I needed to get this picture for the gram. I just forget about it if I've got no signal. It's just not going to happen. One thing that we do have to think about though, from an online perspective, is about bookings. So what we have seen, and again we've seen this in our attractions website survey that we've just published, is that bookings are increasing on mobile year, on year, on year, on year. So we do have to think about that pre-visit, and how easy we make it for people to book tickets. So actually, someone asked me this question on LinkedIn yesterday. What's one of my top infuriations with attractions websites?And I said for me, I'm often on my mobile phone when I'm doing things, because I'm out and about and I might be booking my tickets on a mobile phone. And I really hate when you're forced to create an account before you can actually buy anything. And I'm like, "God, I've got literally five minutes before I get off the train, and onto the tube. And I've got no signal. And I've got to get this ticket. I don't want to be creating an account right now."Andy Povey: No, no, no.Kelly Molson: Just give me the ticket. I might get an account afterwards, but just give me the ticket.Andy Povey: That was one of the things from your report, wasn't it? The account creation is a massive turnoff to conversion. And for me, I never remember any of those passwords. So every time I go back to their store, I'm having to reset my password, because it's just an absolute pain in the butt.Kelly Molson: I'm with you. So there you go.Andy Povey: Don't do it.Kelly Molson: Top tip from this podcast. Don't make people do that.Andy Povey: Yeah. Don't do accounts.Kelly Molson: Two very angry consumers here.Andy Povey: Absolutely. 100%.Kelly Molson: All right. So number three on our digital trends list is increasing loyalty. Now this is a big one, isn't it? Right? So again, it's interesting. So from a personal perspective, again, I was asked about memberships. We have a National Trust membership, it renews in January. I'll absolutely be renewing it. It's great value for money. It gives us so many places locally that we can go to. It's not a free day out, but it's a great day out, and we can take quite long.Andy Povey: It feels like it.Kelly Molson: It feels like a free day.Andy Povey: Yeah.Kelly Molson: Yeah. But do attractions need to think a bit more about that now? So should attractions be rewarding loyalty? So member perks for example? Or just small things that members get for being a member, that you couldn't get unless you were a member?Andy Povey: Absolutely. It's almost those money-can't-buy experiences. So it doesn't necessarily cost the attraction anything to do these things. And you can go have a member exclusive event to walk a coaster track, or to a behind the scenes tour of something. But yeah, all right. It might cost you a couple of hours for a member of staff to put it on. Again, as we came out of COVID, the first people that came to your rotation, were your most loyal customers. They've come to see you as the first thing they can do. So as an attraction, you have the opportunity to harness that loyalty, and turn these people into advocates. And that's going to be your best marketing resource, where they're recommending to people to come along to you. So if you can deepen that relationship by rewarding, by sharing, then absolutely you should do it.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's understanding what they want as well. So when we talk about delivering what they want, should attractions be surveying their members, and finding out what more they can give them? And again, it comes back to the data thing again, doesn't it? How well do you know your audience? From a member's perspective, are you actually giving them what they want?Andy Povey: No, absolutely. And surveying's great, but there's so many other ways you can capture information about members and what they're doing that isn't actually going and asking them a question. It was interesting when we did the dynamic pricing consumer research. The responses that you get from people when they're answering a survey aren't necessarily what they're doing in real life.Kelly Molson: Interesting. Give us an example.Andy Povey: There was, 30% of people believe the airlines aren't charging dynamic prices. And I'm looking at this going, well, this can't be right. This is obvious. But actually, if you dig into it a little bit more, and we did with the guys from Baker Richards. And it's actually, the consumer's not looking at the price changing. The consumer's interested in the price they're paying for the date and time that they want to get on the plane. It doesn't matter that the price changes. It's how much am I paying today? What's my price now? That's a very long winded way of answering your question about the value of surveys.Kelly Molson: Yeah. No, it's really important, isn't it? So how else do you get to know your members? If surveys are giving us not quite the full picture, what other ways can we find out about-Andy Povey: So if you are looking at app, then obviously you are tracking, or you have the ability to track where people are going, how they're engaging, that kind of stuff. I was at IAAPA a couple of weeks ago in Orlando. And there's guys there with a new product that's actually harvesting location data from 200 different apps, and bringing all that, and presenting it back to you. Which I'm not a hundred percent sure that it is GDPR compliant, or [inaudible 00:24:44].Kelly Molson: Is that okay though? I'm not sure about that.Andy Povey: Yeah. But there it's looking at where people are going, how long they're staying there, and that kind of stuff. So that's one example. Going back to what we do at Convious, we don't capture addresses, postal addresses. Because we're not interested in old school CRM. We're not going to produce a mailing, a physical piece of paper and post it out to somebody. So why are you asking them to fill in all those fields with their address on?Kelly Molson: That's interesting. So even from a geographic perspective, it's not always relevant to understand where your customers are traveling from.Andy Povey: You can get all of that from the IP address that they're coming from.Kelly Molson: Sure.Andy Povey: So obviously it's really important to understand whereabouts in the country, and how far away your customers are from you, and that kind of stuff. But there are other ways to gathering that information, rather than traditional filling in. Back to your comment about filling in my address on the phone. Yeah, I've got fat fingers. I'm not going to type my address in on the phone.Kelly Molson: And I'm busy.Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah.Kelly Molson: It's not going to happen.Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.Kelly Molson: All right. Yeah. No, I like that.Andy Povey: Make it as simple as you possibly can for people.Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. And the data's already there, so just gather it from the right place without giving people something else that they need to do. Good. Okay. All right. Well, our next one is about engagement, digital engagement. So digital engagement, from a marketing perspective, I always think about user generated content at this point. Because you're asking your visitors, from an offline perspective, you're asking them to engage with something that's at your physical attraction, but then you then encouraging them to share that digitally. So you're getting that double exposure and, you're also generating content from your users, which is invaluable for your marketing team. So that's the thing that I always focus on from digital engagement. What other things can we ask attractions to focus on?Andy Povey: A story someone told me many, many years ago was that their marketing guy actually ran a training session at this attraction, I can't remember which one, for staff on how to take the best photos.Kelly Molson: Oh that's great. Yeah.Andy Povey: You see a family, and mum or dad's taking a picture of the other parent and the kids, obviously the member of staff is going to offer to take the photograph for them. That's just human nature. That's what we do. But if you've already identified the most memorable background to put these people in, then the member staff can just move them slightly. And it improves and increases the rate of those photos being uploaded and shared.Kelly Molson: That's such a small thing, isn't it?Andy Povey: Isn't it?Kelly Molson: But again, that's genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get a better picture for people. They're more encouraged to share it. I love it. That's so clever. I hadn't even considered that. But again, that comes back to the people. People make places.Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: So you empower the people to make those things happen better for those guests. I love that. Yeah, great one. Okay. And then I guess reviews is something that's really important about engagement. And how do we encourage people to leave reviews about the venues?Andy Povey: It can be as simple as your post visit survey. Standard. Everyone's doing them.Kelly Molson: Ah, are they though? Are they though?Andy Povey: Well, yeah okay. Everyone should be doing them.Kelly Molson: Okay. Should be.Andy Povey: Everyone should be doing them. And then you can have some intelligence sitting behind it, that if you get a lot of high scores, whatever, then direct the consumer over to the review site at the end of the review. If you're getting some negative scores, then direct them to your customer service team and do something about it. As human beings, we're happy to share this kind of information, as long as we're getting something back from it. It's a transactional relationship at that point. So we talk a lot about harvesting data. But morally, you can't do that if you're not giving the consumer something back, and giving them a benefit for doing it. Back to your comment about accounts. What's the point of me creating an account? What's my benefit of doing this? There isn't one. I'm just going to get annoyed about it.Kelly Molson: This is the thing, actually. So most of the time when I've had to create an account to get my ticket, there hasn't been any further interaction other than someone's whacked me on their mailing list. And I'm probably going to unsubscribe from that mailing list, because I'm annoyed that I've had to make the account in the first place. So what is that benefit? Yeah. Think about if you are going to force people to do something, at least make it worthwhile for them than a newsletter. Just sticking them on the newsletter list is not going to cut it.Andy Povey: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And then for a long time I was on the Encore Hotels mailing list. I get an email from them a couple of times a week. And it started, Dear Povey, you-Kelly Molson: Dear Povey.Andy Povey: Dear Povey, you have got that so wrong. You cannot. Your CRM is so bad.Kelly Molson: Can I tell you though? So sometimes when I have to sign up for stuff and I have to put my company name, I get emails to Dear Rubber. That's not okay. I'm quite used to it, but it's still not okay.Andy Povey: No, no, no, no. So yeah. We're talking a lot about examples of how not to do it, than how to do it better.Kelly Molson: Well I think this is important, right?Andy Povey: It is.Kelly Molson: There may be attractions listening to this, going, "Oops, we might have done that. We might need to change that." So it's all relevant.Andy Povey: Oh no, on a positive. I got an email from Father Christmas yesterday. It's from an attraction we took the kids to last year to go and see Santa. And it's the first mail I've had from that venue since visiting, so 12 months. So I'm not getting spammed. And you see Father Christmas arrive in your inbox.Kelly Molson: Oh, that's nice, isn't it?Andy Povey: It's a very special moment. So that was very well done. Very well done.Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really smart, isn't it? If you're just going to send one email a year, make sure it's from Santa.Andy Povey: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Kelly Molson: Right. Let's talk about pricing, because that's our number five key digital trends for attractions. Now pricing's really interesting. We've talked quite a lot about pricing recently. So we had Dominic on from Mary Rose, talking about pricing. We also had Simon Addison from Roman Baths, talking about pricing.Andy Povey: Yes.Kelly Molson: Let's talk about dynamic pricing, because it's something that we touched on just earlier when we were talking about the airlines and the surveys. So airlines use something called real time pricing. When a plane's almost full, the airline company's going to bump their prices up. Because they know they're going to sell out, and they know that somebody really wants that ticket, because they have to get somewhere on a certain day at a certain time. So it's a bit of a no-brainer for them. Is that something that attractions should be doing?Andy Povey: I think so. And as an industry, we've talked about dynamic pricing for the past 20 years. And when I was Madame Tussaud's, we implemented what then was peak and off-peak pricing. And so we changed the price of the ticket three times during the day. And actually, because we were very explicit about what the price was, we were stuck at this 1995 price point, and had been reluctant to change for a while. We actually increased our ticket yield by about 30%, whilst also increasing our value for money score, which seemed counterintuitive. And actually what was happening there was that the consumer was choosing how much they were going to pay.So rather than being told what the price was, the consumer chooses. So naturally we are more comfortable about a situation, where we feel that we've had some choice. Dynamic pricing does that. Real time pricing, which is where we sit at Convious just makes that run much more efficiently, much more quickly. So a lot of dynamic pricing consultancies out there at the moment will talk about changing prices every day, which if you think, generally people are buying tickets to an attraction three to five days before they visit. They're only going to see three to five different price points. Whereas the way the modern world is going, or the way we are is, we're changing prices, or we can change the price as a result of every single transaction.Kelly Molson: Does that make it more difficult from an operational perspective, if you're constantly changing your prices though? Is it harder to do your forecasting, for example, if that's your price strategy?Andy Povey: If you are forecasting on individual ticket price level, yeah, absolutely. So don't do that.Kelly Molson: Good advice.Andy Povey: Yeah. So every attraction that I've ever worked in and around has a target yield, or a target ticket price to achieve. And we've been doing variable pricing through all the coupons that get put out on all the leaflet racks that you see on every motorway service station. So you can't control how many of those coupons are coming back, and how much discount you're going to get. So having much more control makes it easier for you to manage that, and get the computer to do it. Obviously if you're sitting there changing the prices all the time, then yes, it's going to be a nightmare.Kelly Molson: Nobody wants that job.Andy Povey: No. And the other thing on dynamic pricing is, we still get hooked up on the idea that dynamic means increased, and it doesn't. If you're doing it properly, then it doesn't mean the price is going up necessarily. Obviously you get a better yield. But the guys at Pleasurewood Hills down in Lowestoft, they have a very transient market. So there are loads and loads of holiday parks in their area. So Mondays and Fridays are change over days. So their total addressable market on a Monday and a Friday drops by 50%, because people are packing up and going home. So if you drop the price on a Monday and Friday, or drop the price on a Monday and Friday. Someone who may have come on Wednesday, is now going to come on Monday or Friday, have a much better experience, because venue's not full. And so it smooths their demand. So there's a lot of science behind it.Kelly Molson: Yep. And that all comes back to data, what we started talking about, right?Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: Knowing-Andy Povey: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Kelly Molson: Knowing where people are coming from, what they're doing, how you can change their mindset about things just from the data.Andy Povey: Yeah. And actually watching what they're doing. So we have an artificial intelligence engine that sits behind what we're doing. And it can monitor in real time what's happening about your conversion rate. So if you put the price up by a pound and then your conversion rate drops by 5%, you've probably gone up too high. So drop it down a little bit. So just manage it better, I suppose, in summary.Kelly Molson: I think that's good advice for life in general, isn't it Andy?Andy Povey: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Kelly Molson: Just manage it better.Andy Povey: Just manage it better.Kelly Molson: This has been a great chat, Andy. Thank you. I think there's loads to take away from. So what we're going to do in the show notes. So there will be links to all the blog articles that we've mentioned today about the digital trends. And I believe there is a webinar that you ran about dynamic pricing as well. And I believe that we might have a link to that too that we could share, which would be great. But Andy, we always end our podcast by asking our guests to share a book with us, something that they love or they've really enjoyed that they think our listeners would also like.Andy Povey: So I've pondered this for a while, and I know that some of your previous people you've spoken to have got away with two.Kelly Molson: Yeah.Andy Povey: So I've got a request for two books.Kelly Molson: Oh, God. Okay.Andy Povey: One's a business book. Really simple, about a half hour read. It's called Who Moved My Cheese?Kelly Molson: Good book.Andy Povey: It's one of my favorites when I first read it 20, 25 years ago, something like that, it really gave me a different way of looking at change. So I really recommend that. And the other one is actually a book I love reading to my kids, called Oi Dog!Kelly Molson: Oi Dog! Great.Andy Povey: Oi Dog! Yeah. So there's a child in all of us. And that for me really just tickles all of my childish bones. Yeah.Kelly Molson: Oh brilliant.Andy Povey: So it works pretty well.Kelly Molson: Well, both of those books are right up my street. So Who Moved My Cheese? Unsurprisingly within a company called Rubber Cheese, you won't be surprised to know that somebody bought that for me when I set up the business. And that was nearly 20 years ago. So that was one of the first business books that I think that I ever read. And it did make a big difference about how you deal with change, and how you compartmentalise it into an easier way of dealing with. But Oi Dog! sounds right up my street. I'm going to put that on my list too? Right listeners-Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: So as ever, if you want to win a copy of Andy's two books, then if you go over to our Twitter account, you can just search for Skip the Queue, and you retweet this podcast announcement with the words, "I want Andy's books." Then we'll enter you into a draw to potentially win them. Andy, thank you. It's been lovely to chat today. I've really, really enjoyed it. I'm sure I will see you out in events soon. And if I don't see you-Andy Povey: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: Before, have a wonderful Christmas.Andy Povey: And to you. Thank you very much, Kelly.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.. 

In deze nieuwsaflevering staat uiteraard de nieuwe informatie over Danse Macabre centraal, maar ook introduceren we het nieuwe karakter Bouwmeester Big, blikken we terug op het prachtige Efteling in Concert én blikken we vooruit naar de Winter Efteling. Verder praten we je bij over de vorderingen aan het Efteling Grand Hotel en het vele onderhoud dat in en om het park plaatsvindt, maar we staan ook stil bij duurzaamheid en de stikstofcrisis... En natuurlijk hebben we de uitslag van de Spookslot winactie voor je!Show notes- 25 Waarom loopt de straat onder? - Je eigen paradijs- 26 Tuinpraat: Van graftuin tot sprookjestuin - Je eigen paradijs- Een middag met Walt Disney Imagineer Michel den Dulk - D-Tales - Omny.fm- Fotoserie: kijkje achter de Efteling-schermen in Tilburg - Eftelingsestraat.nl- jesse op Twitter: "Tracklist Efteling in Concert #Efteling"- Symbolica, Villa Volta, Indische Waterlelies en Raveleijn: Eftelingconcert van extra groot Metropole Orkest | Cultuur | bd.nl- Nieuwe decoraties in de Winter Efteling- Nieuwe wintertrui en huissokken- Efteling onthult attractietype Danse Macabre in eerste aflevering Making-of- Fabrikant toont technische specificaties van nieuwe Efteling-attractie Danse Macabre - Looopings- Giertje64 op Twitter: "Juist ja, Danse Macabre. Making-of was niet zo spannend maar die tekening, die is gaaf. Hier alvast slordig aangegeven wat Spookslot referenties die ik kon vinden."- Episode 1 - The Making-of: Danse Macabre - Efteling - YouTube- Maak kennis met de familie Charlatan- Foto's: Grote sloopwerkzaamheden aan het Spookslot begonnen - Eftelingsestraat.nl- Giertje64 op Twitter: "De afbraak van Spookslot trekt veel bekijks, niet alleen van liefhebbers maar ook dagjesbezoekers."- A tribute to Efteling's Spookslot. Full Show [8K]- Nieuwe bouwmeester in de Efteling- Binnenkijken in de bouwkeet van Bouwmeester Big @Efteling 2022 - YouTube- Gerard op Twitter: "Dit krijg je te horen als je het telefoonnummer van Bouwmeester Big belt... #Efteling"- Efteling Grand Hotel | construction begins | blooloop- Nick Ringelberg op Twitter: "De #efteling is wat aan het maken, maar wat.... Ik kon de big niet vinden om het te vragen."- Kleine Boodschap op Twitter: "We nemen weer een kijkje op de bouwplaats van het @Efteling Grand Hotel!"- Events & News - Themed Entertainment Association- Duurzaam verwonderen - De Efteling- Climate-positive in ten years, that's our goal - Efteling - YouTube- Efteling presenteert nieuwe duurzaamheidsambitie tijdens jubileumjaar- Rechter haalt streep door bouwvrijstelling, grote gevolgen voor projecten- Attractie Droomvlucht gaat een aantal maanden dicht voor groot onderhoud- Kleine Zweefmolen - Eftepedia- Efteling verandert uiterlijk van Zwarte Pieten op St. Nicolaasplaets - Looopings- Rechtszaak: acteur wil geld zien van de Efteling na gemiste optredens - Looopings- Efteling-medewerkers zetten zich vrijwillig in tijdens Ambassadeuravond- Heruitgave allereerste Efteling-pin- Vacatures bij de Efteling- Werken bij de Efteling (@werkenbijefteling) - Instagram-foto's en -video's- The Blooloop 50 - Blooloop 50 Theme Park Influencers 2022- Foto's: toch Halloween in de Efteling, maar alleen voor personeel - Looopings- Xander De Rycke - Efteling (Bekend & Bescheiden) - YouTube- Dit jaar wél een Pieckplein Winterfestijn in het centrum van Kaatsheuvel | Waalwijk, Heusden e.o. | bd.nl- Albert Heijn in Kaatsheuvel stelt zelf blauwe zone in, ambtenaren volledig verrast | Waalwijk, Heusden e.o. | bd.nl- Start - Zoo-Duisburg- Home | Happy Station

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcastCompetition ends October 1st 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: www.complete-works.co.ukhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/bala-mcalinn-05406683/ Bala McAlinn began working in the Visitor Attraction industry in 2007 writing and directing shows for organisations including London Zoo and the Science Museum. In 2012 he founded Boo Consultancy Ltd, a sister company to the event agency Boo Productions Ltd. Boo Consultancy is a training and staffing agency that applies theatrical techniques to the environments of Visitor Attractions. They predominantly place actors in FOH positions to increase membership sales and visitor donations or deliver workshops to improve the sales and storytelling skills of inhouse teams. In 2021 they rebranded to Complete Works a nod to the greatest storyteller and their theatrical past and because our approach is holistic, redefining the 3 key elements of success: your visitors, your destination and your team.They work with many leading organisations including the Royal Botanic Gardens Kew, Wembley Stadium, The Macallan Distillery and the National Gallery where they won a 2019 Institute of Promotional Marketing award for increasing visitor donations by more than 300% whilst also improving visitor satisfaction scores.His parents are from Los Angeles, his wife is from Sydney and he was born in London. Thus, he has had various accents over the years and matched with the fact that he has an Indian forename and Irish surname, He has grown accustomed to people being generally intrigued, mildly amused and partially confused by him. Which is great for networking and tricky when changing energy supplier over the phone. Thankfully he does more networking than the latter. Bala has 3 hilarious children whom he enjoys making music, drawing cartoons and boxing with. Transcriptions: Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting.In today's episode, I speak with Bala McAlinn, founder of Complete Works. I ask Bala how you teach someone to be a good storyteller, and he shares his tips for improving visitor experience through performance.If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the user channels by searching, Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It's lovely to have you on.Bala McAlinn: Very welcome, Kelly. Nice to be here.Kelly Molson: I am going to ask you a few icebreaker questions, because this is how we start every interview. We've met before though, I don't feel like we need to break the ice, but everyone loves these, so let's go ahead.Kelly Molson: We're going to talk about storytelling and we're going to talk about visitor experience. I want to know what your favourite story is?Bala McAlinn: I'm going to go with, I think my favourite story of all time is The Diamond as Big as the Ritz by F. Scott Fitzgerald, which is a short story that he wrote about, it's slightly science fiction, but within the real world.Bala McAlinn: And there's a family who for generations live on a mountain and the mountain is a diamond, but they have to control the flow of diamonds into society otherwise the price of diamonds would plummet and they wouldn't be as rich.Bala McAlinn: So they're like a secret Bond villain family who live on this diamond mountain and have servants who speak their own language.Bala McAlinn: And one of the children goes off to college and meets the protagonist of the story and invites him to come to the mountain. I won't give away what happens next, but it's bonkers and fascinating and exciting, innovative.Kelly Molson: Great. Sure. I've never read that either. So I'm going to add that to my list. All right. In terms of customer service, what has been your best ever customer service experience?Bala McAlinn: So I think in recent times, the one that instantly pops into my mind, is a client. So I will share that but I'll also potentially try to think of another one as well. So it doesn't just seem like I'm doing that.Bala McAlinn: So some of the greatest customer experience I've received in recent times is at the Macallan Distillery up in Speyside, which is just second to none, it.Bala McAlinn: When you talk about a five star customer experience, that phrase is used a lot, and people talk about world class customer, visitor, guest, whichever word you want to use, experiences and they are truly nailing it across the board in so many different ways.Bala McAlinn: So their team are fantastic, they've done a great job of investing in them, making them feel important, supporting them and you can just tell because it's so authentically good.Bala McAlinn: All the people you interact with truly want to be there, are truly passionate about Macallan and its history and there's so many good stories.Bala McAlinn: I think one of the last times I was up there, I was given a tour by one of the tour guides and they're in a unique position that not every organisation could do this, but when she was given us the tour, we're in a section that had, it wasn't a museum, but had a case that's like a museum case.Bala McAlinn: And there was an old hip flask in there. It was lady called Lindsay and she's, I would imagine, 25. So quite young in the world of whiskey. And then that was her grandfather's hip flask.Bala McAlinn: And she started telling us about how she's third generation on the estate and all this, and you're just pulled in and it was just such a powerful emotive story and such a connection with her.Bala McAlinn: And she's not unique. When you spend time there and meet other people, there's so many people who have a family connection to the place.Bala McAlinn: But it isn't just that. There's so many people who have immigrated from other parts of the world to come and work there and are equally as passionate. The whiskey is delicious and their food is sublime.Kelly Molson: Wow.Bala McAlinn: They do a incredible tasting meal that the chef Pavel creates and it certainly doesn't stay the same, it's all local ingredients.Bala McAlinn: A lot of it's come from the Spey on their estate and you'll have fascinating adaptations of trout and salmon and local beef and things all paired with wines and whiskeys and it's truly magnificent.Kelly Molson: You've sold it. If that isn't the power of storytelling I don't know what is. There's the example that we've all been listening for today.Kelly Molson: All right. Final icebreaker. I want to know, what is your guilty food pleasure?Bala McAlinn: Turkish Delight. There you go.Kelly Molson: Oh, okay.Bala McAlinn: Yeah, no, I love Turkish Delight. My palette, I've got quite a Victorian palette or something, because I don't like a lot of modern sweets, but I love Turkish Delight. I love marzipan.Bala McAlinn: So it's really convenient if there's a box of chocolates, because everybody goes in for certain truffles or different ones and the Turkish Delight or the marzipan one is often left till last.Bala McAlinn: But I'll definitely go for those or in a box of Celebrations, which I don't particularly like, but if I'm going to have one of those, I want the Bounty. I don't want the others.Kelly Molson: Why has Bounty got such a bad name? It is such a superior chocolate when it comes to Celebrations. I don't understand this. It's delicious.Bala McAlinn: Coconut's delicious. So I like those ones. But yeah, my real guilty pleasure is burgers. I had a burger last night. I eat too many burgers. It's just the perfect meal.Kelly Molson: So compact, all in one.Bala McAlinn: Picking up just a big meat sandwich with lots of cheese, lots of pickles, lots of things in it. Yeah, I'm happy with one of those.Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. And we're at unpopular opinion time. So what have you got for us?Bala McAlinn: I suppose my unpopular opinion, I don't really like technology. And a lot of people say that, but I think I genuinely don't.Bala McAlinn: And obviously I'm aware of how much technology has helped the world in so many ways and why we live longer and we can communicate with people who we wouldn't be able to have connections with if we didn't have technology.Bala McAlinn: But yeah, I find it annoying. So I don't like computers, I don't like phones. I keep a paper diary and a paper notebook, which everybody who works with me finds incredibly frustrating.Bala McAlinn: Because I can't share. I can tell them what I'm doing next Tuesday if they ask. But I can't let the counselors see it on a calendar invite.Bala McAlinn: I struggled getting on this Zoom call today. When you asked me to be on this, I said, "Yeah, but can we do it in person?"Kelly Molson: I said, "No, that's a real pain in the arse."Bala McAlinn: There's a huge insult and an indicator that you didn't really want to chat to me. And I was like, "Yeah, there's a lovely sunny day where we could be strolling through some woodland having a chat or doing something," and you could have invited your listeners to come as well, we could have had a picnic.Kelly Molson: So this will come. I just needed more time to organise it. Oh, it will happen. All right. Okay. Look, we all need technology in our lives but I know that this is quite stressful for you.Kelly Molson: But thank you. I appreciate that you've you've given this a go today for me. Do you think, now I want to talk about your background a little bit, because we've talked about this before and it is super fascinating how you've gone from being a classically trained actor to working with visitor attractions.Kelly Molson: So tell us about your background. So tell us how you've gone from being a classically trained actor to running Complete Works?Bala McAlinn: So yes, so I was an actor, not particularly successfully, but successful enough to do it for five years and pay the bills. Not Hollywood or Royal Shakespeare Company, which is where I wanted to be.Bala McAlinn: Lots of pantomime and theatre and education. And I did a couple of little bits on TV, which was fun, but nothing significant. So I enjoyed the lifestyle of being an actor and the fun and experience of it.Bala McAlinn: And then the reality is I met my now wife and she became more important to me than the lifestyle of basically not having to work that much, doing some shows, and getting to lie in the morning, which was great fun in my 20s.Bala McAlinn: But yes, so decided I needed something with a bit more stability, a bit more of a stable future progression. So yeah, started looking and thinking about what else I might do.Bala McAlinn: So I decided to become a cartoonist because that's really stable as well and the obvious progression from being an actor. So that was fun. That didn't work out.Bala McAlinn: But actually it did give me some really good experience because I started a greeting cards company.Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.Bala McAlinn: It was called Of Mice and Mice. And it was this mouse in human situations but what it did is it talked to me about sales and starting a business.Bala McAlinn: Designed the cards and had them made and website and branding and everything, and then sold them on Portobello Market in West London. So had a stall and sold them there, and they sold.Bala McAlinn: So I was like, "Great, that works." And then had to get them in shops. So I had to go through the process, which was really good for confidence building in terms of being a business person and sales, just having to book appointments, try and convince them to see you then come in and pitch your portfolio and get them to stock and supply you.Bala McAlinn: And so I did that for a year or so. I got 10 London stockists, which for ages I'd really wanted. It was like 10 London stockists, that's like a landmark.Bala McAlinn: So I got there and did it and then realised my cards, because they were printed on recyclable material with vegetable ink and recyclable and everything, costs like 50p to make and I could sell them for a pound to a shop. I have 10 shops selling me and I make about £30.Kelly Molson: Wow. Back to the drawing board.Bala McAlinn: Didn't give me the lifestyle I crave. But it was a good experience. So then I went back to thinking really about my skill set and what I'd done as an actor and the training I'd had to be an actor.Bala McAlinn: So I worked freelance for a number of years for a number of companies. So doing shows again and writing shows, but then working with visitor attractions.Bala McAlinn: So I did projects with the Science Museum and London Zoo, writing shows for them or tweaking the scripts of The Bubble Show and Rocket to Bullet show at science museum and Animal Talks at London Zoo and it was fun and I enjoyed that.Bala McAlinn: And so started doing more of that and then started a business doing that. My business, which I started in 2012, the original company, which we still do is training.Bala McAlinn: What we thought that the majority of our training work would be. The animal team, upskilling them to deliver a better gorilla talk or the workshop team, that's in the education team that museums have.Bala McAlinn: So we did that and we still do some of that, but quite quickly we saw that people were just asking us, "Oh actually, can you apply those skills to the front of house team? Because you're making the animal team better communicators. We want our front of house teams to be better communicators. And ultimately we want them to be better communicators to increase commerciality."Bala McAlinn: And that's where our business really took off for obvious reasons. If we're working to help people make more money, we get more work.Bala McAlinn: So focusing on using the skills of performance communication, improvisation, stagecraft in the environments of visitor attractions to upsell membership or increase onsite visitor donations or special exhibitions, is a huge benefit to the organisation and we are skilled and suited to do that.Bala McAlinn: So we started doing that and then the real unplanned success story of our business is then our staffing agency. So we started the business of training and consultancy, but then whilst I was working at Kew Gardens, this must be I think about 2013.Bala McAlinn: And I was doing communications training for their membership team and I'd mystery shopped them a few times to see the experience through the eyes of their guests.Bala McAlinn: And they had some membership promoters at the front, like sitting on stools behind a desk, and it said talk to me about membership. And I was looking at it and they're like, okay. And if people walked up to them, they would tell them about the membership, but there was no proactivity in it at all.Bala McAlinn: And so I'd put in the report. I was like, "It looks like you've got a real opportunity to increase the membership sales there." Because I was mystery shopping, I presumed, they were Kew staff.Bala McAlinn: They then told me that actually they were from a promotional agency that they book to promote the membership. And I said, "Well, they don't promote it. There's no proactive sales. It's just reactive. They sell the membership and it's testament to the strength of Kew Gardens offer that without any proactive sales..."Bala McAlinn: The results were good that. They were getting a decent return on investment from this company, but there was nothing proactive.Bala McAlinn: So I was like, "Well, actually I know load of actors. Let us have a go and let's see what we can do." So we trialed a summer of doing it and increased the sales exponentially and Kew were really happy.Bala McAlinn: And we were really happy and said, "Well, great, let us now do that for you." And, yeah, so our staffing agency is actors between roles predominantly working at visitor attractions and predominantly doing commercial tasks like membership sales or visitor donations.Bala McAlinn: And it's such a great model. Obviously it was my idea, but I didn't really take credit for it. It was like one of these lovely, accidental things where we saw it, we tried it, but the model worked so well.Bala McAlinn: And we love in the company, myself and my employers, supporting actors because a bunch of us are ex actors in my company so we like having that connection and supporting them.Bala McAlinn: And then the actors, we also like that we support actors and we do it by supporting the arts, which is a lovely little circle of artists supporting the arts in their job to pay the bills.Bala McAlinn: And because we're ex actors, we've managed to create an agency that works really well for our actors. We are only as good as our people on the staff and business.Bala McAlinn: And there are lots of promotional agencies and staffing agencies out there but we are quite niche and we are very good for our people, which makes them very good for us.Bala McAlinn: Because know the trials and tribulations of being an actor, whether it's London, Edinburgh, wherever, it's a tough job and you need to pay your rent and you need flexibility.Bala McAlinn: So we give our staff 100% flexibility so they aren't committed to a job if they get an audition or acting. Whereas if they're working in a bar or working somewhere else, regularly they say, "Oh, I've got an audition tomorrow." And regularly they're told, "Well, if you don't come tomorrow, you're going to lose your job."Bala McAlinn: So then they either turn up to work because they need that job, but then they're in a bad mood so they're not going to deliver great experiences or service for whatever they're doing or they just don't come or mysteriously, their grandmother gets sick or something.Bala McAlinn: So we know this can happen. Just give us as much notice as you can, but if you're not working just tell us, which means we have to restaff all the time, but it means that our staff are happy to be there.Bala McAlinn: And then appreciative that we give them that flexibility and we pay them well. It's a premium product and rightly so. We don't do any commission, which lots of our clients always ask, lots of other agencies do.Bala McAlinn: When I was an actor I did loads of sales jobs, telesales and charity fundraising and all sorts. And it was often commission based. And it's again, it's your highs and lows.Bala McAlinn: So if it's a sunny day and you are doing charity fundraising or membership at a visitor attraction, which is I didn't do myself then yeah, you're going to sell loads and it's fantastic. But if it's a rainy day, you are not.Bala McAlinn: And my experience of seeing people do it in other agencies and businesses when I did it was then on the rainy days nobody tries because everybody knows, "Oh, we're just going to get our per deal or something. We're not going to hit commission."Bala McAlinn: So everybody just sits back because there's no point. Whereas for us, we charge fair, we pay fair and our team appreciate that and the attraction can budget accordingly. It's not in terms of our billing, as can the staff.Bala McAlinn: And they know I will be able to pay my rent if I do those shifts or it might be that one might and that one not, and that emotional journey, we want them to be happy that they're there with the flexibility.Bala McAlinn: We want them to be happy that they're being paid well and then we pay them quickly as well, which lot of agencies don't because they're freelancers and they're used to being paid six weeks, two months after putting in an invoice.Bala McAlinn: So we pay our freelancers every other Friday. Used to be every Friday pre pandemic. We dropped it to every other Friday since the pandemic, but that's still much better than a lot of companies.Bala McAlinn: It means we are often in effect running a bank for our staff because our clients don't pay separate, we're not chasing invoices two months, three months, six months down the line.Bala McAlinn: But we get the results that we do with our staff because they are happy, well paid, have flexibility and know they're going to get paid next Friday.Kelly Molson: This is wonderful. Who have created an organisation or create a business that can deliver so brilliantly for both of the sectors, for both the actors that work for you and the attractions that you work for, that's a huge achievement. Something to be immensely proud about.Kelly Molson: I loved some of the things that you talked about there because I've had this conversation before. I think it was actually with Carly Straughan and a mutual friend of ours about visitor experience and attractions.Kelly Molson: And about how it does attract a lot of people from the theatrical world because you are on show, aren't you? When somebody comes to your attraction, you want that experience to be the best it possibly can be for them.Kelly Molson: And so essentially you are performing for them to make that happen. So it's amazing that you can bring people in that have that background to be able to do it.Kelly Molson: What I find fascinating is that you would never know either. So if I came along to the attraction, if I spoke to the membership people or I spoke to the donations people, whoever it is, I wouldn't know that those people didn't work there. You integrate them so seamlessly in that organisation that you would just think that they were there every single day.Bala McAlinn: Absolutely. And that's what we always tell our clients as well with the staffing offer that we do, we want them in the same uniforms as the rest of the team.Bala McAlinn: We don't want them to look like a promotional team or this is the special team that does something different because for the visitor experience, and this is something you see regularly where obviously in a large organisation there's lots of departments, lots of roles and responsibilities, but to the visitor, anyone wearing a badge or a lanyard or a green fleece or whatever it is, represents the organisation.Bala McAlinn: The visitor will just go to the most convenient person to ask a question or a query. And you do sometimes see in an organisation that isn't delivering great experiences that people work in silos and, "Oh no, that's not my department. You need to speak to someone else."Bala McAlinn: And people hate getting passed around. They just want to deal with the person there and get whatever service it is that they need at that time.Bala McAlinn: So for our guys, we want them in the uniforms so that they integrate also because we are doing sales and we want to do it in a somewhat sneaky way.Bala McAlinn: Because, and it's not malicious by any means, but it's that experience of if you're walking down a high street and you clock someone up ahead with a clipboard or an iPad smiling at you and trying to make eye contact.Kelly Molson: Run.Bala McAlinn: Can I cross it? I'm going to brave this fast moving traffic to get to the other side of the street to avoid this person who's going to either ask me questions on a survey or try and sell me something or get me to sign up something.Bala McAlinn: And that's a natural reaction that we have. So for our teams, we want them integrated and then we always lead with service. We never come straight in with sales because it's off putting. It can be jarring.Bala McAlinn: Wherever you are in the attraction, whether it's entrance, exit or mid experience, if you're suddenly interrupted with sales, it can take you aback. So our team are always trained and we have different processes at different sites, different organisations.Kelly Molson: Can we share an example of this? Because this was one of my questions about what we're talking about, because there's two very distinct trains here of what you do, but they intertwine, don't they?Kelly Molson: So it's very much about storytelling for sales, but also visitor experience as well. And this is the bit where they cross over.Kelly Molson: You've got some absolutely incredible case studies on your website about the results that you delivered. I've got here increased donations at the National Gallery by between 300 and 400%. That's phenomenal.Bala McAlinn: Yeah.Kelly Molson: How do you do that? How do you lead with the experience? What do you teach people to do?Bala McAlinn: Yeah, so that one specifically was all about improving the welcome experience at the National Gallery, which led to those results. So that was a great project.Bala McAlinn: Yeah. So that started 2016, 2017, something like that. So originally we won a tender to do a research trial and the National Gallery was great.Bala McAlinn: Because often we'll do a project like this and we just get given a week or a day even and it's hard to really work everything out in such a period of time.Bala McAlinn: But here we had four months and the tender was put out to see if you could increase onsite visitor donations with a team who self-funded themselves through increased donations, made additional income on top and did not affect the visitor experience.Bala McAlinn: The National Gallery, the director Gabriele, was absolutely resolute that he didn't want suddenly the experience to be altered. And everybody felt that they're being shaken down for cash as they came through one of the entrances.Bala McAlinn: And then in that tender, we won the tender, and then we were given six questions to answer over a four month period. It'll be, who will donate? Where will they donate? What other commerciality can you connect with donations? Times? Et cetera, et cetera.Bala McAlinn: But yeah, so we had four months. So we had four people, seven days a week for four months, with a tablet literally velcro'd to their patent and we'd change the patent every two weeks.Bala McAlinn: So we'd do something for two weeks, look at the data, record it and then tweak it and change it. So we'd try different scripts, different ask, different locations. And after every interaction they'd record on the tablet.Bala McAlinn: We split the visitors into I think, six different broad demographics. So they'd click the type of visitor, whether they donated, if they did donate the amount, and where they were and what time.Bala McAlinn: And we had something like, I can't remember exactly, 140,000 interactions over the period of time. So it was a huge amount of data. So we had the time and opportunity to get it incredibly slick.Bala McAlinn: And we found that there were really surprising, subtle changes and differences that would have dramatic effect on income. The positioning of boxes, the relationship of the positioning of boxes to where security is, or ticket desks or experiences again has dramatic effect. Security in particular. So it was fascinating.Bala McAlinn: So obviously National Gallery's on Trafalgar Square so you absolutely need security, absolutely need that. But the security does affect the visitor experience.Bala McAlinn: Because you're coming into an exquisite, arguably the world's greatest collection of art, and you're going through airport style, beepy things, having bags searched, which it's necessary, but it's not a pleasant visitor experience to have that.Bala McAlinn: So if that is happening and then immediately after that you have a welcome led donation ask, you'll get some, but you won't get as many as if you don't have that.Bala McAlinn: You can still have that, but simply by distancing it from that and distancing it can literally be a few meters and a door. So we moved security from inside the entrance to outside the entrance.Bala McAlinn: And the security guards, they're a bit like, "You can wear a coat, it's all right." We weren't always popular with the things that we did.Bala McAlinn: But yeah, by putting the security outside of the building, at both Portico and Sainsbury entrances that they're covered. So you could put the security there, people are searched, they then walk through the doors and it's like-Kelly Molson: That's the start, yes.Bala McAlinn: So they then disassociate. They then walk in and then they see a friendly, welcoming person who welcomes them to the National Gallery.Bala McAlinn: And, oh, they've now forgotten about the bag searching, forgotten that they had to shove their keys back in a bag or whatever it is.Bala McAlinn: They're now in the building, there's an instant release of tension from that and then they meet a friendly, welcoming person and their propensity to donate instantly increases.Bala McAlinn: And the training for the team there was relatively straightforward. We had 17 frequently asked questions that in such a high percentage can create a great, welcome experience.Bala McAlinn: Most people it's the Sunflowers, Whistlejacket, where's the cafe? Where's the toilet? What time do you close? That level of information can create a brilliant welcoming experience for most people.Bala McAlinn: Of course, there's occasionally somebody looking for a very particular more obscure work of art and that's different. And the team will then have to go to the very efficient in-house team who has a broader knowledge of the collection,.Bala McAlinn: But simply by welcoming people, answering a frequently asked question or two, and then informing people that the National Gallery is a charity and if you can donate, please do, donations skyrocketed.Bala McAlinn: And we kept it consistently between three to 400% for three years. So after the four month tender, we then won a two year contract to do it.Bala McAlinn: Well, there was an extension up to a year then we won a two year contract after that to do it. We kept it for three years at that level.Kelly Molson: That is phenomenal, that's phenomenal, isn't it? Because now it's not just about the visitor experience, not just about sales training, it's about location, it's about understanding how your guests enter your attraction. There's so much involved in it. That's fascinatingBala McAlinn: It's core to what we do and our background. And we predominantly look at three things, which are from the world of theatre, and that's storytelling, stagecraft, and improvisation.Bala McAlinn: Storytelling being your communications, the words you're delivering, but not just verbally with your mouth, but with your body and your tone and voice.Bala McAlinn: And we want whatever you are communicating for it to be articulate and for it to not just be heard, but to be understood.Bala McAlinn: So we look at the nuances of that, and little changes of script can have big differences in a donation ask or in a membership pitch.Bala McAlinn: And then, yeah, we look at stagecraft and if you are producing a play, of course, you have a tech rehearsal or several tech rehearsals.Bala McAlinn: And you block the play so that everybody knows exactly where they're going to be standing so that the technical team and the lighting designer plans it so that they make sure that if it's a touchy moment in the play or dramatic point that the lights are just right, and the audience can not only hear the words, but they can see what they're supposed to see.Bala McAlinn: And we look at that in the environments of visitor attractions, looking at where donation boxes are placed, membership asked, are they front and centre? Should they be?Bala McAlinn: And we'll often see them tucked away in dusty corners and people say, "Oh, nobody really ever donates." It's like, "Well, yeah, because so many people don't notice it or there's nobody interacting with it."Bala McAlinn: So we look at the stagecraft and then we look at improvisation because no two days are the same in a visitor attraction. And the ability to be able to think and adapt quickly on your feet is an incredibly useful skill.Bala McAlinn: And then match with that improvisation, that there's a principle, the yes and principle. When you are doing a scene, you don't block the scene, you don't simply say no, because if you do, it ends the scene.Bala McAlinn: So if I was doing the scene with you and you walked in and said, "Oh, hi, I've got a delivery. Are you John?" If I just say, "No." The scene ends.Bala McAlinn: Where I need to say, "Yes, I'm John. I've been waiting for my delivery. Please give it." So yes and drives the action forward. And we want that mindset within a visitor attraction as well.Bala McAlinn: We can't always say yes to every request, but we can offer an alternative. We can improvise. So somebody wants this X, if we know they can't have it, if we just say, "Oh, I want this." "No, you can't have it." Bad visitor experience.Bala McAlinn: But if I go, "Oh, wow, it's great you want that. However, I've got Y and I think you're really going to like this." Then we've driven the action forward, so yeah.Kelly Molson: I love this. Just going back to what you were talking about with Macallan right at the beginning where you talked about Lindsay and her story.Kelly Molson: Obviously she has a personal connection to the site, that was her grandfather's hip flask. She could talk about it very emotively. But how easy is it to train someone to be a good storyteller?Bala McAlinn: Everybody within reason and physical and cognitive abilities can improve their storytelling, certainly. And in the vast majority of cases, virtually everybody I meet and work with is a good storyteller.Bala McAlinn: They are just often not confident at storytelling so can't necessarily do it in a public environment. But you guarantee that when they are at home with their buddy or their family member, they've been telling stories for years.Bala McAlinn: In the vast majority of cases, there are of course exceptions to every rule, but often it's a fear of presenting or public speaking or interacting with people.Bala McAlinn: There was a study in the Washington Post, it was a year or two ago, of the most common fears in the United States and the third most common fear was snakes. The second most common fear was heights. And the number one most common fear in the United States of America was public speaking.Bala McAlinn: And there will be a correlation with the UK as well there. So I often tell people who aren't confident public speakers that that's pretty much the most normal thing to be, the most number one common fear.Bala McAlinn: So that's often in terms of delivering a briefing to a team of staff, or delivering a pitch to a board or conference speaking or something like that. Often lots of people have reticence to do that.Bala McAlinn: But storytelling in the environments of a visitor attraction is the same, this is public speaking and having the confidence to approach a family next to a work of art who are looking slightly confused and tell them the history of that takes confidence.Bala McAlinn: So to become a good storyteller, there's lots of tips and tricks. As when you go to drama school and when you become an actor in the rehearsal room, you learn lots of nuances of body, breath and voice, and that's great. Absolutely.Bala McAlinn: And that takes you to a higher level of technical ability in storytelling, but by far and above the most important thing is gaining experience more than the technique and it's gaining experience so that you become confident.Bala McAlinn: And what I say is experience leads to confidence and confidence leads to good practice. It's not about being a confident person, the most confident person in the world if you give them a task that they're inexperienced at, they may confidently give it a go, but they'll fail at it.Bala McAlinn: So whatever it is, whether it's public speaking, whether it's small interactions with a visitor, whatever it is, whatever task it is, you need to build experience.Bala McAlinn: And that takes time. So you just have to apply yourself to the task and repeat it and repeat it until there's a point that, "Oh, I've built confidence because of the experience I have."Bala McAlinn: Once I'm confident at the task, then that's when you start adding a bit of vocal technique or body language, more interaction, more humour, because you're now at a confident place where you can play around with it and get to that point of good practice.Bala McAlinn: Then that's fun, that's fun. It takes a while to get there but being at a place of good practice is joyful. And it's not just storytelling and public speaking.Bala McAlinn: We all do it in our jobs. A new job takes a while. A new job on a till, you don't know how it works, all the buttons, and you might be learnt quite quickly, but you're inexperienced for a while.Bala McAlinn: Until click, "Oh, I'm confident at it." Now I can run the products through the till whilst having a conversation with the visitor. For a while, I'm having to look at the till and do this and I can't.Bala McAlinn: Once I'm on the till at the place of good practice, I'm now asking that person how their day is and what did they say, noticing the kid. "Did you see the giraffe? That's great. He's called Henry." So I'm now adding to the experience, but because I'm at a place of good practice.Bala McAlinn: With storytelling, that place of good practice allows you to adapt and change for your audience. If you're having to think about your content and your technique, you are not fully in the moment and connected to your words.Bala McAlinn: If you've got to a place with good practice where I can deliver this animal talk, I can deliver this membership pitch, I can deliver whatever it is because I've done it so many times that I now don't need to really think about it like a person on the till.Bala McAlinn: I can be live, present in the moment, and listen and react. So because I'm not having to think about it, I notice that I start losing the attention of somebody who I'm presenting to.Bala McAlinn: And if I notice that I can probably get their attention back by changing the pitch of my voice or the volume or becoming very serious if I'm being jovial or becoming very jovial if I'm being serious.Bala McAlinn: A juxtaposition or a change brings the attention back. Or if I'm engaged in sales and I'm really confident what I'm delivering, I'll start noticing the bits of the pitch where there's a little flicker in the eye and I go, "Okay, they're interested in that benefit."Bala McAlinn: So I'll talk more about that benefit. Because if I'm not live in the moment, I'm just listing benefits and not really noticing what's good for them or not good for them.Bala McAlinn: So yeah, so to improve storytelling techniques, first and foremost it's just building experience. And you do it in safe environments, you do it with your friends, do it with your family, do it at work.Bala McAlinn: But you have to step out of your comfort zone a bit. You have to push yourself forward to learn and we can all become better storytellers.Bala McAlinn: I do it for a job and have done for a long time, but I certainly am not the best in the world and I'm certainly not the best that I can be.Bala McAlinn: And I certainly hope that, may have been doing it for 20 years, but I certainly hope in 20 more years I will be as much better then from where I am now 20 years.Bala McAlinn: It's a constant journey. It's a constant development. And to develop you need to just push yourself a bit further to the point where I am now a bit inexperienced and then do it, do it, do it until, "Oh. Now I'm confident and now I've grown and I'm better."Kelly Molson: And that's where the magic happens.Bala McAlinn: Yeah.Kelly Molson: Brilliant. Thank you. Absolutely excellent tips today that I'm sure our listeners are going to love. Just before we wrap up, I really want to ask you, how would an attraction recognise that they needed to get in touch with you?Kelly Molson: What's the pain points for them? We've talked a lot about donations side and driving membership. What's that trigger where they would need to think about calling you guys in?Bala McAlinn: So our core products are training and staffing. Some organisations we do one of those things, some we do both. So the training is we come in and deliver storytelling workshops, visitor experience workshops, or sales workshops for the in-house teams to build their confidence, build their experience at those tasks.Bala McAlinn: The staffing is where we simply come in and do it with our own people. Often we do both. I love combining the two on a project where if somebody wants to increase commerciality and wants their team to improve on it, for us to be the best we can be in the workshop, we need to experience it first.Bala McAlinn: So before a training workshop, we'll come and do some benchmarking where somebody will get in touch, say, "We want," whoever it is, "This department to sell more memberships."Bala McAlinn: We go, "Great. Can we come for a week and sell your memberships?" Then we'll come. We'll mystery shop it, look at everything, see if we recommend making a few tweaks in the stage craft.Bala McAlinn: Then we'll put some of our actors in uniforms in position for a week or two and sell the memberships because then we can say, "Okay, definitively we know on a Saturday you should be targeting X memberships. On a rainy Tuesday you should be targeting Y and it's achievable because we've just done it."Bala McAlinn: "And whilst we were doing it, we noticed that this little phrase or this benefit in the offer, that was the tipping point for so many people."Bala McAlinn: So then in the training room where we are training their staff then and we'll be using body language vocal techniques and getting their confidence to interact more with visitors.Bala McAlinn: But if we can then put in specific lines, specific little bits of script, that this little group of words had a great effect for anyone with kids. Oh, the retired couples mentioned that and then that's really useful for them.Bala McAlinn: We like scripts. We don't like anybody ever appearing to be delivering a script because that is the worst type, well, wouldn't say the worst side, it's an awful type of visitor experience.Bala McAlinn: And we've all experienced where you talk to someone and you know they're just saying something that they've been told to say and they've said it a thousand times today.Bala McAlinn: I use the analogy often of a good actor and a bad actor. We've all seen both probably. And the bad actor often appears to be not proficient at their work because they're not in the moment.Bala McAlinn: They're not connected to it because they're thinking about the words they're saying next or thinking about the action in the performance that's about to happen.Bala McAlinn: So suddenly the tone of voice goes a little monotone. Their eyes may come up because I'm not actually thinking about these words, I'm thinking that I need to go open that door because there's another character and you see them come out.Bala McAlinn: Whereas the actor who is the good actor can be delivering Shakespeare, 500 year old words that have been said millions of times, but we've hopefully all seen Shakespeare where it genuinely appears like these words have been said for the first time.Bala McAlinn: And it's emotive and beautiful and powerful and we know they're not, but because the actor's living and breathing that character, they're fully in the moment.Bala McAlinn: Whereas we want that in a visitor attraction. There will be a most likely route to commerciality, whether it's an exhibition ticket, a membership sale, a visitor donation, and then that will change for different audience groups.Bala McAlinn: But okay, you see the family, most likely benefits that appeal to them. You see the overseas visitor, most likely script that appeals to them.Bala McAlinn: So we want the team to know those, have learnt them. We don't want to turn a team into robots saying things but we want them to be at that point of good practice, where they're live in the moment, interacting, having fun.Bala McAlinn: But then there's the moment and suddenly they say something scripted. Like, "You must come to the Botanic Gardens in the fall. It's my favourite time of year. And with the membership, you can come back then too."Bala McAlinn: So it's just suddenly like a scripted line. It doesn't seem like it's scripted, but actually they've said it a lot. But because they've said it so many times and they've seen the benefit.Bala McAlinn: That oh yeah, mention autumn or mention snowfall at Christmas, say something emotive that you use storytelling to put the person you're selling to in the story, "You must come back in February, it's orchid season and you can walk through the glass houses and see these flowers in bloom."Bala McAlinn: And suddenly that person, because you've said, "You must come back," and you're using descriptive language, sees themselves walking through orchids in February and suddenly their propensity to buy a membership goes up because it's not February and they want to come back and they can take the price of their ticket off.Bala McAlinn: To absolutely improvise every single time for the visitor in front of you is a difficult task. Orchids, that's probably going to work at Kew Gardens because it's a growth thing.Bala McAlinn: Jousting, that's going to work at Historic Environment Scotland. It was jousting weekend last weekend. So we've been telling people about that. That was at Linlithgow Castle.Bala McAlinn: But we're telling people about it at Stirling Castle and Edinburgh Castle because they're there, buy the membership, you can go see the jousting. "Imagine being there and seeing..."Bala McAlinn: Suddenly you put someone in a store and then they get their propensity to buy whatever the product is.Kelly Molson: Oh you are good, you're good. I want to go jousting. I want to walk through the orchids. I want to be there in fall. That's the story, isn't it? That's the power of the story.Bala McAlinn: Excellent.Kelly Molson: All right. We're coming to the end of the podcast. I always ask our guests to recommend a book that they love to our listeners. It might be something professional, it might be something personal. What have you got for us today?Bala McAlinn: Cool. Okay. I've got a couple with an admission as well, which is a sad, sad truth about myself, I used to be an avid reader and used to read lots of books.Bala McAlinn: And I started my business 10 years ago and had two more children during that time as well. And for the past eight years or so I've become somebody who starts books and then never finishes them.Bala McAlinn: And George, one of the key guys I work with, George Mclean, always says, "If you talk about tiredness, it becomes a competition." "Oh, I'm really tired to that." "Oh yeah, I'm really tired." "Oh yeah, my kid woke me up at five." "Yeah, my kid was up at 2:00 AM."Bala McAlinn: And it's just this and the more you talk about tiredness, the more tired you become. But the reality is running a business, having kids, I've been exhausted for the last decade.Bala McAlinn: Try and read a book and just fall asleep. However, I do occasionally manage one. So there was a great book I read recently and actually did manage to finish called Get in Trouble by Kelly Link.Bala McAlinn: They're short stories. Maybe they're novelettes, their length, they're 100 page stories as opposed to full novels and in a exciting, surreal sci-fi type environment, which I very much enjoyed.Bala McAlinn: And I've bought a new book this week, which I haven't read, so it could be awful.Kelly Molson: It could be good. Who knows?Bala McAlinn: Hopefully. And it's more connected to visitor attraction industry. So there's a guy called Nick Gray who had a company called Museum Hack.Bala McAlinn: I met him at a conference, the Blooloop conference, in Liverpool a number of years ago. Great guy. Museum Hack was awesome. So it still exists, but he sold it.Bala McAlinn: So Museum Hack is an awesome company who does, primarily in America, tours and museums, but focusing on sex, death, value. So focusing on the idea everybody really wants to know how much that's worth.Bala McAlinn: And then things like people only have an attention span of a certain amount of time. And a lot of people I'd imagine will hate the sound of this, but it ticks boxes for me and they get rave reviews.Bala McAlinn: So they'll be delivering the tour in The Met or wherever and then after half an hour, they'll stop and all do a little bit of yoga because it then reconnects you and your attention span can come back.Bala McAlinn: And they are these super fun companies-Kelly Molson: I love that.Bala McAlinn: Great guy. Really interesting. And yes, so I met him there. We linked, I don't really know, but we linked on LinkedIn an occasionally like each other's post and things like that. He's just released a book called The 2-Hour Cocktail Party, which has just come out.Kelly Molson: Ah, I saw this. I saw this. I didn't know it was him. This looks great.Bala McAlinn: So I haven't read it, but I do know quite a lot about it because he's been talking about this for several years and so he hosts cocktail parties.Bala McAlinn: So he was in New York for a long time. He's now been moving around. I think he lives in Austin now. But yeah, so he used cocktail parties as ways to meet people.Bala McAlinn: And sometimes for business purposes, but also just to make new mates in a new town or a city. And so it's a easy to follow manual of how to produce a simple, effective cocktail party.Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.Bala McAlinn: Simple, lovely idea. So I bought it this week, but I'm looking forward to reading at least the first few chapters before then I fall asleep and it gets put-Kelly Molson: All right, well look listeners. As ever, you can win these books. So if you go over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words, "I want Bala's book," you could be in with a chance winning that.Kelly Molson: I am going to buy this book and then what we can do is have a competition about who's read the least of it because they're the tiredest.Bala McAlinn: And then we can have a cocktail party, which is much more fun.Kelly Molson: In real life, without any technology.Bala McAlinn: Exactly.Kelly Molson: And that's perfect. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Bala. It's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you for all of the tips that you've shared.Kelly Molson: We will put all of Bala's contact details in the show note. So if you need some sales training or if you need some help with your visitor experience, you'll know exactly where to go. Thanks for joining us.Bala McAlinn: Thanks a lot. Take care.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Artist Adam Schwerner joins us to discuss Your (Un)natural Garden, currently delighting visitors to LA's Descanso Gardens. We talk about the interactive installations, botanical gardens as a canvas for art, and what he's learned about large-scale art as part of the executive team of the most iconic venue in themed entertainment.Plus: The Pick of the WeekHeadlinesApple Mixed Reality Device Details Begin To Emerge (Daring Fireball highlights The Information)Report: Apple Board Gets Mixed Reality Demo (Bloomberg)Two Bit Circus Announces Merger, New Venture (Blooloop)Hunt-A-Killer's New, More Mainstream Offerings (Press Release)Associate Producer: Parker SelaMusic: Chris Porter Headlines: Kathryn Yu, Executive Editor of No ProsceniumProducer and Host: Noah Nelson   Get bonus content on Patreon See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Journey is the Executive Director of the National Comedy Center, the nation's official cultural institution dedicated to the art of comedy. Under Journey's direction, the National Comedy Center leads the way in 21st Century museum design, featuring state-of-the-art technology, interactivity, and customization for visitors of all ages. Blooloop recognized Gunderson as one of the Top Museum Influencers in the world. Under her leadership, The National Comedy Center was named “Best New Museum” in the country in 2020 by USA Today, one of the “World's Greatest Places” by TIME magazine, and one of “100 Reasons to Love America” by People magazine. The Interrobang named Journey and her design team second on its list of “Innovators Who Changed Comedy.” Gunderson also serves as Executive Director of Jamestown New York's Lucille Ball Desi Arnaz Museum and the acclaimed Lucille Ball Comedy Festival. In this episode, she talks about the importance of maintaining the archives of George Carlin, Carl Reiner, Joan Rivers, The Smothers Brothers, and many others. She also recounts filling time on a microphone waiting for Dan Aykroyd to make an entrance on a motorcycle at the grand opening and introduces us to comedy karaoke. There is definitely something funny going on around her.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends April 29th 2022. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references: https://www.ukhospitality.org.uk/https://twitter.com/UKHospKatehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/kate-nicholls-093b0514/ Kate Nicholls is CEO of UKHospitality, the powerful voice representing the broad hospitality sector, having previously worked as CEO and Strategic Affairs Director of the ALMR.In July 2019, Kate was appointed Chair of the Tourism Alliance, the membership organisation for the tourism industry comprising of leading trade associations/trade bodies within the sector. Kate is also Chair of Mayor of London's Night Time Commission and is also a member of the Events Industry Board, London Food Board, Tourism Industry Council, Cultural Cities Enquiry, London & Partners Members Group and the Advisory Board for the Institute for Industrial Strategy.After gaining a degree in English and a post-graduate diploma in competition law, Kate worked as a researcher in the House of Commons and European Parliament before joining Whitbread as Government Relations Manager, starting her career in hospitality in 1993. Kate was Director at one of the largest independent public affairs companies, working with a number of hospitality, retail and leisure accounts before establishing her own strategic communications consultancy in 2000. She is a graduate of Fitzwilliam College, Cambridge and Kings College London.A highly motivated Board-level adviser with a proven track record in devising and delivering strategic public policy and communication campaigns. Over 25 years experience working in a variety of government, corporate, agency and freelance roles. Transcription:Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Kate Nicholls, CEO of UKHospitality and the Co-chair of the London Tourism Recovery Board. Kate answers your burning questions on how to attract and maintain talent in the current challenging climate. If you like what you hear, subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Kate, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. I know how incredibly busy you are, so I'm very grateful.Kate Nicholls: Thank you. It's great to be with you. I don't think I've had any time in the last two years really where it hasn't been incredibly busy, so it's good to take some time out and have a chance to have a chat. So thank you for having me.Kelly Molson: You are very welcome. You are very welcome. I'm glad I could give you that time. Right, Kate, icebreaker questions, because this is where we start all of our podcast interviews. I want to know what is at the top of your bucket list?Kate Nicholls: Ooh, well, for the last two summers we'd been planning ... My eldest was just about to go to University when COVID hit, and for the last two summers we'd been planning to go to Costa Rica as a sort of last big family holiday. And of course that's been canceled for the last two years. So top of my bucket list at the moment is to go on holiday with my two daughters, ideally Costa Rica, but actually I'd settle for anywhere at the moment. I haven't really had a proper break. But yeah, Costa Rica.Kelly Molson: Costa Rica, definitely. Yeah. I hear you. I feel like anywhere with some sun right now would probably do you the world a good, Kate.Kate Nicholls: Exactly.Kelly Molson: Okay. If you could bring back any fashion trend, what would it be?Kate Nicholls: Well, to be fair, they've never gone away from my wardrobe, but I would really like to bring back the wrap dress. They were such a good staple for anybody who worked in the '80s and '90s and the early '00s. Quite like to bring them back as a major fashion trend.Kelly Molson: Yeah, good. Can't go wrong with a wrap dress, can you? Boots, wrap dress, cardie, done.Kate Nicholls: You can't. Very forgiving, pair with boots or heels or flats or trainers, and you can just adjust it according to how you're feeling during the week.Kelly Molson: It's the perfect work-to-evening outfit. They're perfect.Kate Nicholls: Exactly.Kelly Molson: Okay, Kate, and this might be a little bit like asking you what your favourite child is, but I want to know what your favourite restaurant is?Kate Nicholls: Oh, that's the difficult one because it changes so much depending on how I'm feeling and the time of day and what I'm doing. But during the lockdown, my local Korean cafe has been my go-to place for getting a quick fix, some comfort food, and they've kept me going throughout lockdown. I'm a big fan of street food.Kelly Molson: Oh yeah, love street food. We have a really big street food community in Cambridge, actually, and it's just amazing, isn't it? Like being able to try all those different cuisines in one place? Fantastic.Kate Nicholls: It is. It is. And I think I've got kind of a butterfly brain, so being able to go try lots of little things, lots of little samples and eat that kind of stuff is great. But the other thing we did do over the summer, my daughter and I, we went and celebrated the new three Michelin star female chefs that we had in London that were awarded. So again, I go from street food to high-end.Kelly Molson: Love it. Absolutely love it. Okay, Kate, it's unpopular opinion time. I ask everybody that comes on the podcast to share an unpopular opinion with us. It can be humorous, can be serious, whatever it needs to have to be your unpopular opinion.Kate Nicholls: Well, I did think long and hard about this one because there are so many unpopular opinions I think I could have. But if I'm sort of talking about the biggest one that would sort of divide a lot of people, cats are better than dogs. I'm really not a dog person.Kelly Molson: Oh, okay.Kate Nicholls: That's going to be controversial and split.Kelly Molson: It's very controversial. And I'm not going to lie, I've got two dogs, so I am a dog person. But Kate, my dogs are a nightmare at the moment. We've had a flea situation this year. I've got a very noisy little dachshund who is absolutely filthy. The weather is disgusting. You have to go out with them all the time. Cats are sounding more and more appealing to me by the day.Kate Nicholls: Cats are sort of neat, clean, undemanding. They're not as problematic as dogs. I always think dogs, you feel as though you've got another kid in the house. I mean, my unpopular opinion is based on the fact that I did have a nasty encounter with a dog when I was little, so I am quite scared of them. But yeah, dogs are not as good as cats.Kelly Molson: All right. Well, let's see what our listeners think. I'm not going to lie because it's the time of year I'm swaying towards a swaying cat, Kate. Yeah. You might have changed my opinion there. Nice. Listen, thank you again for coming on the podcast. I really do appreciate it. I mean, I'd be super gobsmacked if anybody that's listening to this podcast episode doesn't know who you are, but just give us a little brief overview of what your role is at the moment, just to explain how critical it has been over the past couple of years.Kate Nicholls: Yeah. So I'm currently Chief Executive at UKHospitality. That's the national trade body that represents hospitality operators and businesses and employers. And so we have 700 member companies. Between them, they operate just over 100,000 outlets across the UK, from a single-site pub, coffee shop, cafe, restaurant, park bar, hotel, holiday accommodation, right the way through to the national chains.Kate Nicholls: Our role as the trade body is to be the voice and face of the industry to promote the sector as a great place to grow, work, and invest, to engage with the government, to make sure we've got the most supportive regulatory and tax environment within which businesses can thrive and survive. And then to provide insight, advice, and guidance to our members on the way in which they can operate to be compliant and to help their businesses grow.Kate Nicholls: And so normally that's quite a broad-based role, but it was really front and centre as soon as COVID hit because clearly, we've got inbound tourism. We've got hotels that were hit first. City centre restaurants, pubs, and bars started to feel the effects of COVID back in February. And really since February ... I mean my first meeting on COVID with the government was the 28th of January last year.Kate Nicholls: And since then, it's been pretty full-on making sure that in real-time we can present the views, concerns, impact of COVID on our business sector and try and make sure that we get the support needed to sustain those businesses, to maintain the employment, to protect jobs within the industry when we've been so hard hit by COVID.Kate Nicholls: So really a big role with government, meeting government ministers and officials two, three, four times a week at the height of the crisis, and also being on the media to try and explain what the impact is of what appeared to be relatively small scale changes, what big impact that can have on business viability and really spelling it out to make sure that people understand what that means potentially longer term in terms of viable businesses, the economy, employment in the UK.Kelly Molson: And, as I said, you have been the spokesperson for the sector throughout the pandemic. And I have to say, Kate, you were in my top five Twitter accounts that I followed continuously throughout. So I had Kate's, I had Bernard Donoghue, I had ALVA, ASVA and Blooloop. And that was my top five to find out what the hell was going on in the sectors that we worked in. So thank you so much for sharing and for doing that role.Kelly Molson: So what I want to talk about today is about attracting and retaining talent within the attractions and hospitality sectors. But I guess, from a ... I don't run an attraction. I work with them. I'm an associate in that sector. So I guess I want to ask a couple of questions about the general public and what we can do right now.Kelly Molson: So we have a situation in our local town. I live in a town called Saffron Walden just outside Cambridge, a beautiful town, a market town, lots of lovely pubs. One of my favourite pubs, which is one of a chain, has had to close for a good couple of months now. And essentially, it closed because some of its other restaurants were so overwhelmed and so busy but so short-staffed that they had to redistribute staff from our pub to their pubs.Kelly Molson: And I guess that's happening in a lot of different places as well. So if we're unable to book a table because a venue is short-staffed, what can we, as the general public, do right now to support the sector?Kate Nicholls: Well, I think it does highlight a challenge that the industry has got. It's more acute in certain parts of the country, but up until Omicron hit and we were all going back eating and drinking out more regularly, the industry as a whole just did not have sufficient labour to be able to operate at full strength. So a quarter of our businesses in the same situation as the one you just describe saying that they were having to restrict hours, cut covers, not open for certain days of the week, turn away bookings simply because they didn't have the staff.Kate Nicholls: So I think as the general public, what we can do with those businesses is try and be a bit more creative in supporting them. Is there a different time that we can book? Because everybody tries to book dinner or lunch at the same time. Can we spread it out a little bit throughout the day? Can we look at going for early suppers or late suppers or brunches or afternoons? If we can't, then can we help them in other ways if they're still doing takeaway, if they're still doing delivery, we can support our businesses in that way. Or booking ahead in advance and making sure that we take out gift cards and those kinds of creative solutions some of our businesses have done where you can get cash through the tills and book two or three meals in advance.Kate Nicholls: So that's a main bit of support. The second thing is that if you do have a booking and your plans change and you can't make it, let them know, and let them know in sufficient time. Because we still are getting quite a lot of no-shows that people make these bookings, something changes. Plans always change, we do know that, but people aren't letting them know. And particularly at the moment when you've got larger scale bookings for Christmas, people will have bought that food in well in advance and will start cooking it well in advance, so you do need to let them know the day before or at least a good couple of hours before if you can't make your booking, and then they can pass it onto somebody on a waiting list.Kelly Molson: That actually leads to another question is how is the sector feeling right now? So with Omicron, with the Christmas rush, what's the general mood like in the hospitality sector at the moment? Are we seeing a lot of people booking, cancelling reservations that they have for large groups of people? Is it quieter than it should be?Kate Nicholls: Quieter than it would be at a normal Christmas. So even before we had Omicron, we knew that we weren't having the same level of bookings as we were seeing Christmas 2019 and previously, so trade is down. We have seen cancellations. They're running at about 10% at the moment, and we have seen a downturn in footfall over the last week. Not just for those bookings and corporate events, Christmas parties, Christmas socials, but just a more general decline in walk-in bookings and walk-in activity. So we are seeing revenues down over the course of the last week, 15, 20%, and that's as a result of the uncertainty.Kate Nicholls: There's a high degree of nervousness within the industry and a great degree of fear at the moment because we've all been in this situation before. Sadly, this time last year, people will have invested heavily to be able to open and operate at Christmas, and unless you get that Christmas trade-in, it can be very damaging to the businesses. They rely on having a good December in order to get them through the quieter months of January to March. And without that good December, there are many businesses that will undoubtedly go to the wall. What should be a very optimistic and hopeful time has, in the space of a week, turned to be very uncertain and very concerning.Kelly Molson: Okay. So look, some great advice there from Kate. If we can look at when you're booking, changing times, if you can look at supporting your local restaurants by booking gift vouchers, for example, or if they are doing takeaway, please do do that and let's try and get them through this really difficult period that we're seeing.Kelly Molson: Now Kate, as I said, I want to talk about attracting and retaining talent in the visitor attraction sector. I don't run an attraction. So what I did, and what I thought was a good idea, is to ask some of the past guests that have been on to ask me to ask you questions. And I've had some fantastic questions in from many of the different guests that we've had on. So let me just ask you a few of the things that have come in. Gordon Morrison, the CEO of ASVA, and Adam Goymour, park director at ROARR! Dinosaur Adventure, actually had really, really similar questions. So let me read out what Gordon wrote over because he puts it far more eloquently than I ever could.Kelly Molson: So Gordon said, "Staff are the beating heart of every tourism business and can undoubtedly make the visitor experience memorable both positively and negatively. As we face up to what is quite possibly the most difficult recruitment and retention environment in the tourism industry has ever seen, is it right that we should continue to rely on our people so heavily to deliver outstanding experiences? And if so, how do we ensure that our businesses are attractive, and how do we keep that top talent in the industry?"Kate Nicholls: I think this is the number one issue that all operators are grappling with at the moment as we come out and we've got a very tight labour market and we've got a real battle just to get staff in, nevermind the battle for talent that we had going into COVID. So we were already facing those challenges. I do think what we need to do is to use COVID as a reset moment and look again at our ways of working, style of working, what we're expecting of people. This gives us an opportunity to revise terms and conditions and to look again at hours of work in the sector to make sure that we are being as flexible as we possibly can and we are being as responsive as we possibly can to what new recruits are telling us.Kate Nicholls: Because we've got lots of new, younger people coming into the industry, many have had no experience before and are questioning, quite rightly, some of the ways that we do things. So particularly in food and beverages and things like that, less so in attractions, but you do get some antisocial hours. You do get double shifts. And people have different ways of paying people. And I think the labour scheduling and the flexibility that we can provide should be a positive rather than it being something that holds us back.Kate Nicholls: So I do think we can look again at making sure that we are as attractive as we possibly can be and that we've got our best foot forward. I think secondly, what we need to be doing as an industry is to look after the sector's employer brand. Individual business is very good at doing this, promoting themselves as a career of choice, but we want to get across the fact that we're a career and we have a great plethora of opportunities available to people if they come and work within our businesses.Kate Nicholls: Because we're an industry largely of small and independent businesses, we don't have the size and scale, but I think we can look again at the sector branding to be able to make sure we put the best foot forward, that we describe how important it is as a career, how meritocratic it is. Because there's no sector likes ours that provides young people with such opportunity where you can come in with limited experience, limited qualifications and skills. We will upskill you very rapidly and you can move into management within about two years. There's no other sector that will give you that level of responsibility and authority at such a young age and at such a low level within the business, and the pay and salary that goes alongside it.Kate Nicholls: So I think there's more we can do around that in terms of communicating career of choice. And also communicating that even if you only want to come with us for a short time, we will equip you with common transferrable skills that other employers will find valuable; business, finance, people management, leadership, conflict management. You get that by working in hospitality businesses and visitor economy businesses, again, at a very low entry-level, and these are soft skills, people skills that are valuable at all levels.Kate Nicholls: And then the final element is about making sure that we do invest in our people, that we do train them to provide continuing professional development and we invest in leadership and management as people go through. We're very good at taking people at entry-level and doing the immediate skills and training they need to be able to function. We need to look at how we can continue to invest in those people. That's what young people particularly are looking for from careers and employers now.Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. It's really interesting what you said about the soft skills as well, because I think that one of the best starts that I ever had to my working career was working in hospitality and in retail because it gave me so much experience of understanding how to talk to people, how to communicate with people. And from that customer service perspective as well. I think it gave me such a good grounding in my career, and all of those skills I learnt then, I've taken through into what I do now in terms of sales and an account management role.Kate Nicholls: Absolutely. And if you think about some of the young people who've been most affected by COVID and had their schooling disrupted, their social lives disrupted for a couple of years, those are the skills that they are lacking. When teachers are talking about young people coming back into school, it's time management. It's personnel skills. It's social skills. It's communication. That's what they get from us.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Completely, completely agree. Mark Ellis, who's the interim lead at the National Memorial Arboretum, actually has asked a question that picks up on some of your earlier points there. He says that, "One of the outcomes of the industry-wide staffing shortage is that staff are able to negotiate a better work-life balance, which is a really good thing. Ultimately that is going to lead to better conditions throughout the industry, hopefully, more job satisfaction, higher standards and a better customer experience." Mark asks, "Do you think that we will see the appearance of some widely-accepted examples of best practice?" So things like how businesses will manage seasonal contracts or flexible hours or unsociable hours like you mentioned?Kate Nicholls: Yes. I think we will start to see that evolving as we go further forward and as we come out of this. I think that's what I mean by a COVID reset moment, that we can look again at the ways that we've done things to be able to offer that kind of attractive proposition to people. So moving away from some of the zero-hours contracts, moving away from some of the seasonal changes where people don't have that much certainty, and towards one that is focused on what the applicant is looking for and wanting and the flexibility that they're needing, and presenting it in a way which is appealing to them.Kate Nicholls: I think we will, if we work carefully at it, I think there's a great opportunity for us across the entire sector to pick up some of those really good case studies and examples and promote them and push them out around the sector so that we have a positive employability story to tell.Kelly Molson: That is great. Now, I'm going to pick up on that a little bit later on because we've had a really good question about that very topic. Let me ask you about the supply chain, though, and again, this is another question from Mark at the National Memorial Arboretum. So the supply chain at the moment is disrupted. Food costs are increasing. We all need to find a more sustainable way to feed humanity. What can we do as an industry, and this is the attractions industry, to help the public recognise that hospitality outlets that source locally, use seasonal ingredients, increase their plant-based options, that they are the best place to respond to these pressures? But at the same time, costs are going to rise through dual pressure of food and wage increases.Kate Nicholls: Well, I think this is going to be a collective challenge for all of us because it's inevitable that with the cost pressures that we've got that are building across the sector, and not just our sector but across the economy, prices are going to have to go up to consumers irrespective of what we're talking about in terms of local sourcing, et cetera, and the positive efforts we've got. So I think as an industry we're going to have to work to be able to communicate to consumers clearly why we are having to put prices up post-pandemic, and it is going to be a struggle and a challenge and there's going to be that juggling act which there always is around pricing decisions about how far you can push prices onto consumers before you turn off demand.Kate Nicholls: But with VAT alone going up, there is going to have to be a price increase that we are going to have to pass on. So I think that's one challenge that we need to look at separately. I think the advantage is it's going to be across the economy as a whole and we're not going to be doing it in isolation. So I think customers are going to get more used to hearing about prices and hearing about costs coming through.Kate Nicholls: And then I think, you're right, there is a real opportunity there for turning that conversation around and explaining about how local sourcing is more beneficial, meets the broader sustainability issues that consumers are increasingly concerned about. Not just consumers, potential employees. So sustainability and environmental and social governance issues are coming higher up the agenda when we're talking about recruitment and putting ourselves out as an attractive proposition.Kate Nicholls: People are looking for authentic stories about local sourcing, local supply chain, carbon net zero, limiting waste, all of those kind of positive issues that we can turn to our advantage. But I do think customers understand it doesn't come cost-free. So I think they are two sides of the same coin. I don't think we should be apologetic about the fact that we need to be able to invest in good quality produce in order to deliver a more sustainable food supply chain.Kelly Molson: Do you think those conversations are slightly easier to have now as well, since the pandemic? Because I think what we did see when attractions were able to open up and hospitality were able to open up is that we saw a huge increase in demand for things that were local. We wanted to understand more about our local environment. We wanted to be able to support our local independents. So do you think that's going to be an easier conversation to have now that we're in that mindset already?Kate Nicholls: I think so. I think COVID provides us with that opportunity. Certainly one of the strong trends, and it sees no sign of abating as we come out of COVID, localism and hyperlocalism was a trend we saw during lockdown when, inevitably if you can't travel, you explore in your neighborhood. But even as we reopened, people were exploring in their locality before they've got confident enough to go further across the country or into city centres. And clearly you're moving away from global travel for two years. Again, those are trends that become sticky with consumers and consumers are interested in hearing and exploring it more.Kate Nicholls: So I think neighbourhood is going to stick with us for a lot longer. Certainly as well in terms of the different ways in which we work, I don't think it's going to be as polarised as in the office or at home, but I do think you're going to be working remotely and people are going to be looking at neighbourhood and local options to be able to facilitate that. So I do think that that frees up the conversation to be had more generally about how we are making a more sustainable, more robust, more resilient supply chain by looking locally. But equally, that doesn't come cost-free.Kelly Molson: Absolutely. Let's talk about opening hours. So Mark had a really good question around that. So he says, "Over the last few months, as venues have reopened, we've seen many places change their opening hours, and that's to enable them to offer fair shifts for their staff in response to business needs." He actually says some are open fewer days each week, and some are closing earlier. The micropub and brewpub and taphouse that he tends to frequent, he does put in brackets here, "On an all too infrequent basis though. Nights out are a rare treat. But they're all offering a brilliant experience with great staff during their opening hours. Does Kate think that the public will learn to understand that not opening all hours is a new thing to be embraced, or do you think that pressure to increase the venues to go back to 11:00 to 11:00 will be the norm?"Kate Nicholls: I think it's probably too early to say yet with consumers and consumer habits and trends because I don't think people are going out in the same way that they were yet. What we have seen after this reopening, post the 19th of July, that there is an expectation from consumers to go back to normal and they're not very forgiving of those who aren't. So I think consumers during COVID have got used to having things when they want it, at the time that they want it, and rapidly, and they don't take kindly to things not being available for them.Kate Nicholls: So I suspect it will be more challenging to have that on a longer-term basis if that's a longer way of working. What we do know, however, is that what consumers really don't like is uncertainty. So if they can guarantee that you are always open for these particular days, these particular hours, they will understand that more readily than they turn up at your door and you're not open today because you can't get the staff. That's the bit that seems to create the disconnect.Kate Nicholls: And what we don't have yet is a loyal customer base back. So if they can't get it from you, they will go and find it somewhere else is what we're seeing very rapidly. So I don't think it means that everybody has to go back to 11:00 to 11:00, seven days a week and full service, but you do need to get back to some consistency and some standardisation for customers. And certainly what we're finding in the restaurant side, for example, are quite a lot of businesses in city centres are closing Monday and Tuesday, and that causes a degree of confusion for consumers when they're back out.Kate Nicholls: Now, having said that, our customer habits are going to change a little bit again over Christmas if we do have restrictions brought back in due to Omicron and therefore customers again will be adapting to changes and the ways that they're doing things and changes in the ways of working. But I do think that will depend on where you are located. If you are located in a city centre and people are not visiting the city centre as regularly, you need to have that certainty about when you are available and open that matches and meets with them. If you are in a local neighbourhood and a local area and you're part of the community, I think there will be increasing pressure back being available when the customers want you.Kelly Molson: Earlier in this question you mentioned that it's too early to tell because we're not seeing the demand, we're not seeing people going out as frequently as they were. It's a difficult question, but how long do you think that we need to leave it until we do start to see some data around that?Kate Nicholls: Again, I think that's difficult to be able to work out because of the uncertainties of new variants and changes in restrictions. We haven't had a clear consistent period where we've been able to trade normally. Had we not had Omicron coming along, I think we would have got a better feel for it. After Christmas, we would have been able to look back at five, six months where we could see what customers were doing, how confident they were, and could try and see trading was doing without the blips that were caused by supply chain shortages, delivery shortages, pingdemics, labour shortages across our industry. I suspect that it's going to be until the middle of next year before you can really start to plan with any certainty around what's stuck, what's a long-term trend and what's something that you're nudging consumer behaviour around.Kelly Molson: Thank you. You mentioned earlier about sharing best practices and we've had a great question from Hannah Monteverde who's the Park Manager at BeWILDerwood in Cheshire. So Hannah says, "It's not always feasible to be able to offer an increased salary or market-leading benefits." She'd be really interested to know of any examples of curveball ideas that have attracted staff recently. Do you have any case studies or examples of attractions that you feel have really bucked the trend for recruitment particularly well?Kate Nicholls: I think the ones that are doing interesting stuff around flexible hours, hours when you want it, more frequent pay. One of the things that we found across our sector was that people were getting paid after four weeks, six weeks in some cases when they were a new starter, compared to some of the newer startup companies and labour scheduling companies and temporary recruitment from Amazon where they were getting paid within the week. So as soon as they did a shift, they were getting paid.Kate Nicholls: And actually that was something that people found was really attractive, that as soon as they'd done their job, they were getting their pay almost immediately, so a return almost back to weekly pay packets was quite an interesting one. It's not necessarily creative or curveball, but it's just listening to what people were saying that was a frustration for them that they wanted to be able to have.Kate Nicholls: Food, uniforms, selling those kinds of benefits, the walking to work for anybody who's in a local attraction or provision of transport for those people who were off the beaten track and people relying upon cars, et cetera. Those are things that have been used quite creatively. And then flexible labour scheduling, giving people the ability to tell the employer when they were available to work and how many hours they had rather than getting that rota coming down on a fixed basis saying, "This is when we rota-ed you and you have to go away and work out somebody else to swap with if it coincides with your yoga class or your student lesson or a GP's appointment."Kate Nicholls: So I think putting more power in the hands of the employees and giving them the ability to be able to ask for what they want, when they want, hours and pay, those are the two creative ones I've seen most frequently.Kelly Molson: That's fascinating. I mean, the crux of it is flexibility, ultimate flexibility as the employee. That is such a simple change to be paid weekly, so that instant gratification, "I've done a really good job. I've been paid for it." What a simple change to be able to make that could make such a big difference.Kate Nicholls: Yeah. And there's technology that enables you to do it now. So on the labour scheduling front in terms of, "I'm available for these hours and I'd like some work." Stint provides the opportunity and there's labour scheduling that provides the opportunity to do that, to just log on and say, "I can do four hours," rather than, "I can do a full day." And that sometimes is better. And equally, there's technology that allows you to drawdown. So if the business still wants to keep a monthly salary payroll, you can draw down earlier ahead of your salary, so you just get it a bit more when you've been doing your work. Particularly relevant for young people coming into the sector.Kelly Molson: Yeah, absolutely. And hopefully retaining them for a little bit longer, because that is the challenge with the sector is that it has always been seen as a bit of a stopgap, hasn't it? And ideally, we want to-Kate Nicholls: It has, and in some respects, we shouldn't be apologetic for that because it is a good first job. It's a good first base. Transferrable skills that we talked about before. We obviously want to keep and capture those people who want to use it as a career. But equally, given the labour shortages we're facing, if we can keep those people with us for longer who are just looking at it as a stopgap, that's all to the good as well. And that's about making sure we invest in them and make sure that they're supported as they come into the company.Kate Nicholls: Because at the moment, churn is so high across the sector as a whole. People come in, find that the work's too busy, too demanding, not for them, and they go away again. So let's just support them, nurture them and try and help to make sure that they have as good an experience as they can while they're with us.Kelly Molson: Definitely. Final question for you from our attractions audience. And again, this is from Hannah. So Hannah asks, "Do we have any realistic idea of timescales in terms of the forecast for recovery?" And this is specifically around the recruitment challenges that we're having at the moment. She asks, "Is this something that we have to adapt and change to live within the long term, or is it something that we could potentially predict will slowly improve and recover back to a pre-Brexit and pre-COVID-19 scenario?"Kate Nicholls: Gosh. There are two factors to that, particularly if we're talking about labour markets. So the government-commissioned independent research to look at when domestic tourism for fallen revenues would recover to pre-pandemic levels, and I suppose that's the best indicator of when do you think demand is going to get up there? When do you think your money is going to come back? And the independent forecast suggested that domestic tourism revenues would recover by the end of 2023 and international, that's not until 2024.Kate Nicholls: Now the government has said it will work with the industry to try and bring that forward a year, but that still looks as though you're going to have most of 2022 where you are operating suboptimally, that you're not operating at full demand. And I think in terms of labour shortages and challenges, again, likely to be temporary but let's not forget that pre-COVID, we had a 5% vacancy rate. Post-COVID, it's 10%. So it was a tight labour market before we went into the COVID crisis.Kate Nicholls: How temporary is temporary? I think you're going to be living with cost price inflation and the disruption to the supply chain for at least six months of 2022 and I think the labour issues are going to be with us probably for a year or two. If nothing else changes, our biggest challenge for getting people back into work is twofold. One is we've got a hiatus in the talent pipeline where we haven't been able to train our own. Our apprentices haven't been able to go through people and vocational training, haven't been able to go through catering colleges, et cetera. Haven't been able to go through because people have been disrupted in education.Kate Nicholls: And the same goes at the higher levels for hospitality degrees, but also curator jobs and those kinds of occupational training skilled jobs in the sector. So you've got a two-year talent hiatus, talent pipeline hiatus, and you've got COVID travel restrictions that are preventing people from moving globally. And you can only see what's happened with Omicron to see that that's going to be with us probably for at least another year. So you are going to have a global disrupted labour market and you're going to have global disrupted supply chains for at least another year.Kelly Molson: Gosh. Another year of this.Kate Nicholls: Sorry.Kelly Molson: Weren't we saying this last year? We were nearly-Kate Nicholls: I don't mean that we're going to be having another year of COVID restrictions or the challenges that we've got, but I think the global supply chain, the global economy is still going to be in quite an uncertain state for the whole of 2022. And people certainly won't be moving around the globe as freely as they have been pre-pandemic. We're not going to get back to that sort of free movement. It's nothing to do with Brexit, but just that movement of people isn't going to be happening to the same degree, hence you've got a delay in domestic and international recovery. You've got a delay in international recovery.Kate Nicholls: The people who've moved abroad during COVID or people who would normally be coming into the UK to look for work or those with settled status who might be returning, they're not moving around because of COVID and they're not moving around because of the problems of international travel.Kelly Molson: Kate, thank you. Thank you so much for answering the questions today. It's been incredible to have you on. I'd like to end the podcast the way that I always end the podcast which is to ask you about a book that you could recommend to our listeners. It might be something that you love. It might be something that's helped your career in some way or helped shape your career in some way. What would you recommend for us today?Kate Nicholls: I am a voracious reader, so I usually have three or four books on the go at any one time. But I'm definitely a fiction reader. I've got two books. One that was really ... is a business book that I found really quite useful when I first was made chief executive about six, seven years ago. And that was Sheryl Sandberg's Lean In, which I would definitely recommend for any female leaders in the industry to look at. It talks about some of the different ways that people experience things at work and certainly helped me to think about how I wanted to support the next generation of women coming up and making sure that we had more female representation on boards.Kate Nicholls: And then my absolute favourite book, which is my go-to book at any time that I just want a little bit of escapism and a really good story is Wuthering Heights. However bad you're feeling, there's always something entertaining and enjoyable in getting lost in somebody else's story and that's my recommended read.Kelly Molson: Fantastic recommendations. I actually do remember on Twitter you tweeting photos of your book pile, your COVID book pile. They were huge.Kate Nicholls: Yeah. Because everybody knows I'm a reader and I read an awful lot, at Christmas I get big ... And that's what everybody buys me as a gift. So I always get quite a lot of books at Christmas, and last Christmas I got 20. And as we went into lockdown, of January, I thought, "Right, can I complete my reading pile before we come out of lockdown?" Actually, I had to go and buy another 30 books. By the time we came out of lockdown on the 19th of July, I had read 56 books.Kelly Molson: Oh my goodness, 56 ... Well, I guess books are a much better option than getting socks for Christmas, right?Kate Nicholls: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yes, I do have big piles. I still have piles of books all over the house that I'm still reading. But yeah, I usually have ... I finish three books a week.Kelly Molson: Oh, I love that. Well, listen, so if you want to win a copy of Kate's books, you know what to do. Go over to this podcast announcement on Twitter, retweet the announcement with the words I want Kate's books, and you might well be in with a chance of winning them. Kate, thank you once again for coming on the podcast today. Very, very grateful that you've been able to spare us some time to come on and chat, and I very much hope that you get that well-deserved rest and holiday to Costa Rica sometime very soon.Kate Nicholls: Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends August  27th 2021. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references:www.twitter.com/bernarddonoghuewww.linkedin.com/in/bernard-donoghue-0aa9b97www.twitter.com/alva_ukwww.alva.org.uk/index.cfmBernard Donoghue is the Chief Executive of the Association of Leading Visitor Attractions (ALVA), the umbrella body for the UK's most popular, important and iconic palaces, castles, museums, galleries, heritage sites, stately homes, cathedrals, churches, gardens, zoos and leisure attractions. ALVA is a powerful advocate for the sector to Government, the media and business; it organises events, benchmarking, training, commissions research and the sharing of best practice for members across marketing, visitor experience, fundraising, public engagement, security, education, retail and a variety of other areas.In May 2017 he was appointed to be a member of the Mayor of London's Cultural Leadership Board and is the Mayor's Ambassador for Culture. He has been a member of the UK Government's Tourism Industry Council since 2014. In January 2021 he became Co-Chair of the London Tourism Recovery Board, to plan and deliver the strategic recovery of London's visitor economy and sits on the GLA's COVID Business Forum and various London Mayoral cultural and business recovery taskforces.Bernard has been Chair of the award-winning London International Festival of Theatre (LIFT) since 2010, having been a Board member since 2005 and Deputy Chair between 2007 and 2010. In June 2021 he became Chair of the Board of the Bristol Old Vic, the oldest continually operating theatre in the English-speaking world. He is a Trustee of the People's History Museum – the Museum of Democracy, in Manchester, and will take over as Chair of the Board in November 2021.He is a member of the Cathedral Council of St Paul's Cathedral, London, and a member of the Exhibition Advisory Board for Two Temple Place and the Hoare Trust. He was Chairman of WWF-UK's Council for 10 years, until 2020, and is a former trustee of WWF-UK. He has been a trustee of Centrepoint, Kids in Museums, the Museum of The Home and the Heritage Alliance. He has been a judge for the Museum and Heritage Awards since 2003.In October 2020 Bernard was named by Blooloop, the world's leading online resource for professionals working in visitor attractions, as one of the world's 50 most influential people in the museum sector. Transcription:Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Bernard Donoghue, CEO of ALVA. We discuss what the fast-approaching end of restrictions mean for attractions, how to balance digital engagement with an overseas audience and what these past 15 months have really been like for Bernard personally. If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. Kelly Molson: Bernard, I am so happy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for coming on and joining us.Bernard Donoghue: It is my absolute pleasure. It was a choice between you and a meeting with four MPs so here we are.Kelly Molson: Well, I mean, I have to say, I'm clearly the better choice here. Thank you. Okay. As ever, we're going to start off with our ice breaker questions. If you had a time machine and you could travel backwards or forwards, what year would you go to and why?Bernard Donoghue: Oh, good lord. Sorry, by the way, this reminds me of the brilliant line by Sandi Toksvig. She was in a café in York once and there was a sign saying we serve tea at all times so she asked for a tea in the Renaissance, and they didn't understand her.Bernard Donoghue: I don't know. Wow. I don't know. I think possibly in the 1920s because you're just at the cusp of so many things. You're at the tail end of the Edwardian period so you've got all of that and then you're at the cusp of electricity and technology and radio and aeroplanes so probably then.Kelly Molson: We're hearing a lot about it being like the Roaring Twenties as well, aren't we? Once we get through all of this too. It's probably quite current that you've chosen that as well. Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. Kelly Molson: Obviously, flapper dresses because all of those were completely beautiful. I mean, I would be down with that.Bernard Donoghue: No. Seriously, I do look good in beads. It's true.Kelly Molson: I could see that about you. You've got that look. Great. Okay. If you were a WWF wrestler, which I can see actually, I feel like you've got the look of a wrestler about you as well, maybe not in beads, what would your entrance song be?Bernard Donoghue: For years, by the way, I used to be a trustee of WWF UK and all of my friends just assumed that I had a sort of parallel existence in spandex somewhere and I had to remind them that actually, no, it was about conservation. What would it be? Something from RuPaul's Drag Race actually because they're always fantastic. Yeah. When they come back on the stage at the end, that's the music.Kelly Molson: Okay. Something really flamboyant I feel like.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. You know, you can strut ... I mean, I know strutting is not necessarily a WWF thing but presence is all.Kelly Molson: Absolutely. We can make it a thing. It can be whatever we want.Bernard Donoghue: Thank you.Kelly Molson: Okay. If you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, what would it be?Bernard Donoghue: If I was 20, I think my advice to my 20-year-old self would be to make the ... This sounds a bit professional. Just make loads and loads of connections, network, network madly, even though, and this will come as a bit of a surprise, even though, I'm an introvert, get out there and network because it suddenly dawned on me in the last few years, when I was in my twenties, I was a campaigner, I was a young lobbyist and I worked for disability charities and all the people who did the same kind of job as me then, are all chief executives like me now. Bernard Donoghue: Of course, that makes sense because you grow through the ranks so now I've got a peer group of lots of chief executives in lots of very varied, different spheres and realms. It's been brilliant because we've all come through the ranks together and in good times and bad and now we've got a ready-made oven-roasted peer group that we can all rely on. There's about six of us. I think that.Bernard Donoghue: And B, take your job seriously but don't take yourself too seriously.Kelly Molson: That's good advice. That's really good advice. The networking thing is really interesting, somebody asked me a couple of weeks ago what has been the thing that ... What's been the one thing that I've invested the most in over the last few years that has made the biggest difference to my business and I completely agree with you and I said it is about building your network and it's about getting out there and making those connections because such incredible things come from knowing such a variety of different people in all kinds of sectors. You just never know what kind of opportunities and doors are going to be open for you from doing that.Kelly Molson: Also, you just can't grow a business on your own or do anything on your own. You need that peer support around you. Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. You're absolutely right. The key to that is knowing people who are not like you and in businesses that are not like yours. In ALVA, for example, I hear it time and time again that museums and galleries don't actually learn much from other museums and galleries because they're all kind of in the same boats and cathedrals don't learn much from other cathedrals, but they will learn things from Zooms or Harry Potter or Warner Bros, so places that are very different to them and, therefore, come at an issue from a very different perspective. That's where you learn most.Kelly Molson: Absolutely. I completely agree with you on that one as well. That might come up later actually in our chat. Okay. Last one but it's your one, what's your unpopular opinion?Bernard Donoghue: I hate the phrases going forward, and very much, as in, "I am very much looking forward to it" or, "I am very much committed to this." I hate those phrases with a passion whereas it's clear other people don't. They would be capital punishments when I take over the rule. Bernard Donoghue: What's another unpopular opinion? I cannot see how people can watch Jeremy Clarkson. I don't get it. Absolutely don't get it at all. Oh, oh, here's one actually and it's only because it was his birthday last week, I have never understood Bob Dylan and his popularity.Kelly Molson: Wow. Gosh, that's quite a strong one.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. I don't get it. Kelly Molson: Okay. Bernard Donoghue: Glad he's around, glad he's there, not for me, thank you.Kelly Molson: I like that. Bob Dylan and Jeremy Clarkson was not a mix I was expecting to get on the podcast today.Bernard Donoghue: They're not a duo that has ever performed together as far as I'm aware, or likely to. It's probably just as well.Kelly Molson: It wouldn't make either of them even more appealing to you, though, would it? Not really.Bernard Donoghue: No. I think I would have to take out a restraining order if they decided that they wanted to come around.Kelly Molson: I love that. Well, let's see what our listeners think, Jeremy Clarkson fans out there? I don't know. It's not my cup of tea. Tweet us and let us know what you think about that. Kelly Molson: Now, Bernard, I don't even know where to start with this list so Mayor of London's Cultural Ambassador, CEO of ALVA, Co-chair of the London Tourism Recovery Board, Chair of LIFT Festival and Trustee of People's History Museum. Quite an impressive list that you've got going on there. What I want to know is where did it actually begin, though? Where did your connection with cultural heritage and attractions organisations start?Bernard Donoghue: I've always absolutely loved ... I'm kind of being paid for all the things that I would do at a weekend. Kelly Molson: Nice.Bernard Donoghue: You know, when I was a kid, my parents would take us around National Trust properties and English Heritage properties and stately homes and places like that so the first place that I went to was Waddesdon Manor, which if people don't know it, it's the maddest, most beautiful Loire valley style chateau but in the vale of Aylesbury, just outside Aylesbury. Built by the Rothschilds as kind of an entertaining pad. Absolutely beautiful, absolutely stunning.Bernard Donoghue: My first stately home ... Well, that's kind of a stately home. The first stately home is Blenheim Palace. I just got the bug. I just have loved history, heritage, visitor attractions since I was a kid. I went off to do political jobs and then back in '97 I joined Visit Britain as their first-ever head of government affairs, not quite a lobbyist because it's a government agency and so you're not allowed to be called a lobbyist, but it was all but a lobbyist. That just opened my eyes to tourism and then visitor attractions. Bernard Donoghue: On the culture side, the theatre side, the theatre has always been a complete passion so I stepped down this year as chair of LIFT London International Festival of Theatre after 11 years and I'm just about to go onto the board of the British [inaudible 00:09:15]. My theatre passion continues.Kelly Molson: I love that. I love what you said, I get paid to do all the things that I would love to do on the weekend. What a fantastic role to be in. Bernard Donoghue: It's absolutely true. I should show you my wallet actually. My wallet is full of membership cards, as in 30 of them, so occasionally I'll look at my wallet and think, "This is money laundering essentially." I'm being paid and I'm paying them back in return. This is just a circular economy.Kelly Molson: That's one of the things that you've done really well throughout the pandemic is you've been so supportive and you've been really proactive on Twitter about saying to people, "Look, if you want these places to still be around when we come out of this, buy the membership, buy something from their shop when their shops are open, or buy something from them online" and I think it's been such a positive message to send out the whole way through, so not money laundering, supportive. Being very supportive in your role.Bernard Donoghue: You'd have to talk to my bank manager because some days it was like money laundering.Kelly Molson: There are loads of things that I want to talk about going forward, even though you don't like that but what I want to go back to is a little bit in the past as well. I really want to talk about what it's been like for you personally. I think you have been a real kind of pillar of strength to the sector and huge support and I think that as wonderful as that's been, that can bring its own challenges on yourself as well. Kelly Molson: Ultimately, you're the person that's putting out this kind of positive message all the time and being really actively encouraging but I could imagine that's had a lot of pressures and challenges for you personally as well. What has it been like, the last 15 months? How have you motivated yourself to be upbeat and positive throughout all of this?Bernard Donoghue: Well, that's very kind, first of all. Thank you. I think I divide it between last March until Christmas and then sort of Christmas onwards. Last March until Christmas, there was a sense of really being able to cope because the adrenaline was getting you through. It was all novel and new and I've always thrived in crisis management. In all the roles that I've had over the last 20 years, crisis management has been at the heart of that, whether that's about actively managing crises or the corporate PR response or being a spokesperson or whatever.Bernard Donoghue: In some ways, I sort of thrived on all of that through adrenaline. It's been much, much more draining and exhausting since Christmas and I think that's probably the same for everybody actually. We've gone through it again and actually, it's no longer new and it's no longer novel and now it's just sapping.Bernard Donoghue: I have often felt on an almost kind of daily basis, and this is just honest, I'm not exaggerating, there's quite a lot resting on my shoulders and it feels quite lonely because the advice from the government has been so inconsistent and so unclear and often contradictory. There's a small group of about three or four of us in the tourism sector who have had to daily unpick all of that and interpret it for our respective sectors.Bernard Donoghue: I know that if I weren't doing that then it just wouldn't get done ... It would probably get done somewhere at somehow at some point but, as you know, I do a daily bulletin so it goes out every evening at six o'clock with the latest information. There's a real sense of I need to get this out and get it done every day. Bernard Donoghue: I've made a rod and back really because there was nothing that I would love more than stop doing these bulletins. That's not possible while we're still in a state of flux. It's been a bit lonely. It's been odd working from home when normally I would be a consummate traveller and visit loads of my members around the country. There's been a lot of pressure but the feedback from people about the vital nature of the information and the advocacy and all the rest of it, and the achievements actually, has been extraordinary.Bernard Donoghue: I don't think myself, my work has ever been more exposed than it has in the course of the last 15 months. Sometimes that felt scary and sometimes that felt brilliant.Kelly Molson: I think as well it's never been more celebrated as well because you have had so much support from the sector. There are a lot of people looking for you. Like you say, you're delivering daily bulletins, you've been doing incredible webinars with ALVA so regularly, you've opened those up to non-members as well so everybody can benefit from the knowledge on them. There's a lot of eyes on you as well. That's a lot of pressure. I think from a positive perspective, what I see being delivered back to you is nothing but encouragement. Everybody has been so incredibly supportive of what you're doing and so grateful for the things that you're doing for them. I think that's been really lovely to see.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. It absolutely has and, in particular, from those organisations and businesses who, as you say, are not members of ALVA, I mean, I took the decision on day one that although ALVA is a tiny organisation and people will probably be really surprised, there's me and one other member of staff.Kelly Molson: Wow. I'm surprised.Bernard Donoghue: We're just two people. Lucy is brilliant. She's our finance and business manager. She's living in Norwich and I'm here in London. It's just the two of us. It's a tiny organisation so we're spread very, very thin. But given the nature of our members and my role of years in getting high-level meetings with government and all of that, I just thought we're in a leadership role here, we should use that for the benefit of everybody, let's be generous, let's not be parochial.Bernard Donoghue: We made the decision to commission all the research and give it out for free, and that visitor sentiment research has just been vital. It was one of the best things that we did. Open up our webinars to everybody. If anybody wants a bulletin, they could go on the mailing list. Whether they're members of ALVA or not because there was the analogy, it's been used a lot of times but I think it's true, we're not actually all in the same boat. We're all in the same storm but we're in very, very different boats and some are bigger and more stable than others. We happen to be in a relatively stable, well-structured boat so I think it's beholden on me and us to try and help everybody as much as possible.Kelly Molson: I am absolutely gobsmacked that it's just the two of you. I did not know that myself and I think that's an incredible achievement, what you've been doing, just the two of you to organise all of that. Wow. Hats off to you both there.Bernard Donoghue: It's exhausting. I mean, look at me. I'm actually 47 in real life.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Me too. That's what I tell to everyone, Bernard. Gosh, that really has surprised me. Just go back because you said about you're a big traveller, you would be out and about all over the place and up and down the country, I'm sure, what do you think that you'll take away as a positive from the time that you spent working at home? Are there any kinds of changes that you'll make to your working habits? Kelly Molson: For example, I would commute to my office on a daily basis, I would often be out in London or all over the place doing meetings. Now I start to think, well, some of them I'm really missing but some of them are actually probably a bit unnecessary, we can cut down on the fuels that we're burning, we can cut down on the time that we have, and I've actually quite enjoyed having a little bit more personal time to do things like eating better because you don't eat that well when you're travelling or doing a little bit more exercise. Have you found that there are some positive things that you can take from this that you'd continue?Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. There's a number. I mean, one was we made the decision, we used to have an office in Somerset House on the Strand, a beautiful, beautiful room in grade one listed former palace. Absolutely gorgeous. Looking down onto the piazza, currently covered in trees. I couldn't justify the cost because Lucy, my colleague, went over to Norwich to be near her parents. We very sadly lost one of our colleagues. There used to be three of us in the office and we lost one of our colleagues last year to cancer. Bernard Donoghue: There were just the two of us and I thought I can't justify an office just for me, lovely, though, it is so actually we haven't had an office. We've given it up, which means that I am, for the foreseeable future, working at home. There are plus things to that ... Well, this is a plus and a minus, this is no particular priority order, we've got a cat, Tom, he's a badsy cat. I think he's going to go into trauma whenever we leave the house.Kelly Molson: Oh gosh. Yeah. Bernard Donoghue: We've been around 24/7. We are now more grateful ... When I say we, this isn't a royal we. This is me and my partner. We are now more grateful than we ever thought possible to have a garden in central London. That's just been fantastic. Bernard Donoghue: But I am looking forward to getting back to some degree of working normality because I have to say I've never worked longer or harder than I have over the course of the last 15 months. It's been exhausting.Bernard Donoghue: On a normal day, I would probably have five or six, at least, one-hour Zoom meetings back to back. And then write the bulletin at six o'clock in the evening. Typically, I'm working from about 7:30 in the morning until about seven in the evening. I was doing a bit of that pre-COVID but it's pretty unsustainable so I'd like to get back to a degree of normality.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Definitely. I think that the difference between having multiple face to face meetings during the day is very different to the Zoom meetings. I don't know about you but my diary gets crazy and I look and I think, "I've got four back to back" and there's no time to process in-between. It's that cognitive overload whereas if you had back-to-back face-to-face meetings you don't get the same kind of drained feeling. Yeah. I really feel you on that. It's definitely been longer working hours for us here as well. I really sympathise.Bernard Donoghue: Also, I mean, the meetings that I'm having, bluntly, you can't coast because either I'm the guest speaker so you can't wing it, or it's a meeting with ministers or SAGE or public health England and so it's serious grownup stuff. You can't step back, you can't just switch off, you can't think I'm going to coast this for half an hour, I hope that nobody asks me a question because they're not those kinds of meetings.Kelly Molson: No. You can't switch off your Zoom and quickly grab a cup of tea and a biscuit while everyone else is talking, can you? It's not the done thing. Bernard Donoghue: It's not really, no. Kelly Molson: That was a good segue into something that's going to happen today. We are recording this and it is the seventh of June. There are reports that Matt Hancock is going to give us another COVID statement this afternoon and, potentially, that is about the dates that we are due to be opening up with no restrictions.Kelly Molson: Now I want to ask you a little bit about what that means for attractions and what we could potentially now be looking at. We are hopefully coming through to the other side. The vaccine program is doing phenomenal things. What does this fast-approaching end to restrictions mean for attractions now? Do you think that we're going to see this extended?Bernard Donoghue: It's a really good question. I've been talking to about five or six chief execs over the course of the weekend just about guidance and advice. I think there are two very significant things and at first glance, they're in contradiction with each other. The first is that the longer we have social distancing measures and face mask use and mitigation measures in place, the longer it will take for the sector to recover.Bernard Donoghue: When we have businesses, whether it's a hotel or bar or restaurant, a theatre or an attraction when we have those businesses opening up one-third capacity, none of them is making a profit. Actually, they're opening for PR purposes and in order to achieve fuller visitor figures down the track so no one is operating profitably.Bernard Donoghue: Getting those backup and running is really critical but we know from all of our visitor sentiment that still 80%, eight zero, 80% of the British public are uneasy or cautious about those very mitigation measures, like social distancing and face mask use, being eased too early. Bernard Donoghue: Visitor attractions are faced with a real dilemma I think, which is if it's announced that on the 21st of June all social distancing measures are lifted throughout England and, therefore, visitor attractions can up the numbers, don't have to do face mask use measures, abandon social distancing, still the vast majority of their visitors won't like that and will feel uncomfortable and a tiny minority will think they're in bliss and think that they're liberated and all the rest of it.Bernard Donoghue: My advice has been to visitor attractions, you and your visitors have to be the ultimate arbiter of the visitor experience. It may well be that you have to keep social distancing and face mask use measures in a place way beyond the 21st of September because that's what the public wants so, even though, you are technically allowed to get rid of those things by government, actually, take your lead from the public because they're going to be the ultimate arbiters. Bernard Donoghue: Those things are potentially in contradiction with each other. One of the things I'm constructing literally this week is some ALVA national advice to visitor attractions so that front of house staff can basically say to an irate guest on the 22nd of June, "I know the government has just announced that but actually, we're adhering to ALVA national advice" in order that they don't get than that confrontational pushback from members of the public because I genuinely feel that the loudest voices are for liberation but the quietest voices are for care, safety, sensible precautions and we need to manage that really, really carefully.Kelly Molson: That's a really difficult challenge, isn't it? For front of house staff that will be in that position of having to push back on people. I can see it in my head happening. There's an encounter where people are angry about the fact they're being told that they still have to wear their mask, yet the government has said that they don't need to do this anymore. I can't imagine how difficult that's going to be so I think what you're putting in place is a really valuable kind of asset for the organisations to have.Bernard Donoghue: We saw some examples, relatively limited, but we saw some examples of poor behaviour on the parts of the public last year when attractions reopened for, frankly ... It's not an excuse but it is understandable. They, like us, we're tired, fraught, and quick to anger, end of their tether, and they just wanted to get out and be in nice places. We've seen some of that poor behaviour on the part of the public again this time round as indoor and outdoor attractions. Bernard Donoghue: Honestly, for every one person who pushes back saying, "Don't make me wear a mask. Don't manage my social distancing", there are nine others watching saying, "Well done, you. You're doing exactly the right thing." That, I think should be the barometer of safety.Kelly Molson: How does this work with ... What we want to see is attractions open and open at full capacity. But we, obviously, have got this challenge around overseas visitors and many of them not being able to come here, many of them not feeling safe to come here at the moment, understandably. How do attractions manage that? If they can open at full capacity, is the reality that they're not going to be at full capacity because we just don't have that influx of people that we need?Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. That's right. I mean, bluntly, there are some visitor attractions in the UK and just off the top of my head, they're places like the British Museum, Edinburgh Castle, Stonehenge, Westminster Abbey, St. Paul's Cathedral, Tower of London that are so heavily dependent on overseas visitors, inbound visitors coming from the rest of the world, that even the best ever staycation this summer won't help them repair their balance sheets. Bernard Donoghue: We've made it really clear to ministers ... I took the minister for London and the minister for tourism round four visitor attractions in London a couple of weeks ago to Westminster Abbey, Tower of London, London Transport Museum and the Royal Opera House and, at each one, showed them what a COVID safe welcome and visitor experience looks so they were comfortable with that but also made it clear to them that some of those, particularly, the Royal Opera House, Tower of London, Westminster Abbey are so dependent on inbound visitors that they will require additional support way beyond the rest of the sector to really recover sustainably because their visitors, their market won't come back in any meaningful numbers until next year.Bernard Donoghue: It was really to peg to ministers even if you lift all restrictions on the 21st of June, that's not the end of the story. Kelly Molson: Yeah. Yeah. You have to be prepared to give more support past that point as well. Those attractions, in particular, that do rely really heavily on overseas visitors, what can they start to think about putting in place at this point? I know there are many attractions that have put on lots of digital events or things that people can engage with online. Do you see that continuing hugely for the rest of the year and then into 2022 as well?Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. Yeah. I do. I mean, we've talked about this actually. At the VAC conference, one of the great achievements of last year was the explosion in digital content and not just the amount of it but the diversity and the brilliance and the innovative use of digital. I think because the last year has been sort of chaotic and odd and no holds barred, it's just liberated a lot of organisations to take risks with their programming and their content and their decision making in a way that they would never have conceived of before and to speed up some of their decision makings and just to think actually let's just do it and see what happens.Bernard Donoghue: I think the digital explosion has been absolutely phenomenal so downloadable jigsaws and recipe books and maps and behind the scenes tours and going up into the attic of buildings and into the archives, all of that, absolutely phenomenal. Bernard Donoghue: It hasn't particularly connected with audiences who weren't already interested in those buildings so it's had some public engagement successes but not massive but what it has made people do is get on the customer journey so if they're seeing the stuff online, they'll one day aspire to be there and stand there on the spot because it can't replace the actual physical experience of being there.Bernard Donoghue: In terms of digital output, the Bristol Old Vic, and the London Symphony Orchestra, they've both made decisions recently that in addition to their live performances, they're going to broadcast their performances on digital as well. If you're in Tokyo or San Francisco, you can subscribe to watch these performances, a bit like a Netflix subscription, so you buy a book of 10 performances at reduced costs.Bernard Donoghue: What this means, of course, is that those theatres, that orchestra is getting a whole new audience who are paying money that they never had before but they're also starting them on a customer journey so that person in Tokyo one day, hopefully, will want to stand in the Bristol Old Vic and see where David Garrick performed. You're getting them on that customer journey whilst also monetizing it as well.Bernard Donoghue: I think that's probably the biggest evolution and change to businesses in the course of the last year. You may have got round to it in about three or four years time but all of that has just been sort of contracted and sped up in an extraordinary way.Kelly Molson: It's what you said, it's about risk-taking. I can remember having this conversation with Laura Crossley from the National Football Museum. They came on the podcast to talk about their podcast and they said that actually, it was something they'd been talking about for ages, they were going to do it, and then things kept getting in the way. Ultimately, they just got to a point where they were like, "Let's just try it. Let's just throw something at it. Let's see if it sticks and let's just do it." Kelly Molson: I loved that attitude that has been taken by so many different organisations this year and it's propelled them forward in a digital sense because let's just try it, who knows what's going to happen? None of us had a clue what was going to happen last March. That whole attitude about risk-taking I think is really important and I'd really like to see that continue as well.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. Me too. I mean, two years ago, people would have thought it would be utterly impossible to run a business with nearly all of their staff working from home and even if they thought it was possible, it didn't sound particularly attractive because it just sounded too complicated and messy. Look where we are now.Bernard Donoghue: Things can be done. I think one of the things that we've done for years is collect all of the visitor numbers from all of our members and then publish them in the media in March. I've done some longitudinal research to look at are there common characteristics or behaviours on the part of those visitor attractions that sustainably and successfully grow their visitor numbers but also diversify their business numbers as well? Bernard Donoghue: I do a presentation and a workshop on this and, funnily enough, there are. There are common behaviours. You can absolutely see them. In that group of about six or seven behaviours, one of them is about the appetite for risk on the part of the board and senior management. The other one is about the confidence to foster creative partnerships with unusual suspects. Don't just work with the people who are your natural neighbours, either physically or theoretically, but actually, this is something we were talking about at the beginning, try and foster creative partnerships with people who are not like you and, therefore, they bring something completely different to the party.Kelly Molson: That's going back to what we talked about, about museums not learning from other museums and theatres not learning from other theatres because you're just in the same challenges all the time. Looking at that kind of wider sector communication of sector cooperation even and seeing where the boundaries overlap and what you can do that like you said, the theme park or the zoo down the road might be doing but you're a theatre. How can you embrace some of the things that they're using?Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. Yeah. One of my favourite examples recently is that I was down ... I've managed to get out of London a couple of times since September in the last three weeks and I was down at Bristol going to see the Bristol Old Vic. They're doing something really, really clever, which is they have just parted ways with their in-house catering company and they've just decided that they want to be a community showcase so they're getting in local Bristol restaurants and chefs to be their in-house caterer for a month and they have a different one every month.Bernard Donoghue: It's just blindingly brilliant because, A, they're connecting with their communities, they're showcasing the diversity of food in the local area, it's all five-mile menu stuff so it's all locally sourced. But it also means there's a new reason to come back every month, even if you don't go to the theatre to see a show, you'll go there to eat. I just think that was genius.Kelly Molson: It is genius.Bernard Donoghue: I've been sharing that with a lot of museums and galleries and heritage attractions saying actually if you're in-between contracts and you're thinking about an interim period between catering contracts, why don't you think about this?Kelly Molson: That is an absolutely brilliant idea because I love attractions but I'm a big foodie as well so, for me, I'd be looking and going, "Oh, well, I need to book a table at that place at least once a month now because I'm going to go back and I'm going to experience a different food" or, "I've really wanted to go to that person's restaurant, how amazing, I can combine eating that person's food with a show that's on at the same time." It's a genius idea.Bernard Donoghue: It really anchors the theatre in its community. We've seen over the course of the last year that the wreaking of your community and understanding your community and reflecting back who your community are through your work and your HR programs and your staff recruitment measures and all those kind of things, that's been absolutely key because if you lose your connection with the community, you're lost and wondering.Kelly Molson: Yeah. Completely agree. I think, for me, personally, that's one of the best things that have come out of this. As an individual, I've always been really keen on supporting local independents and shopping locally anyway but even more so since this happened because you can see the effect of what's happened so drastically on your own community. You want to be able to do as much to support that as possible. That is such a great idea. I hope everyone that's listening picks up on that because I just think that is awesome. Well done, them. Kelly Molson: We're coming to the end of the podcast interview but I can't not ask you what's next for ALVA? What have you got planned that's coming next? It's been a pretty full-on year. Are the webinars going to continue? Are your daily bulletins going to continue for the foreseeable future? Sounds like you might need a little bit of a break at some point.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. Well, the daily bulletins will certainly continue because I don't think anything is going to change significantly until September or such. The webinars are coming back. We took a month off from the weekly webinars so we had a webinar every Wednesday from the beginning of January until last month with over 50 case studies from across the UK. I mean, they were all amazing. Absolutely amazing.Bernard Donoghue: I think, by the way, that it's been through the webinars and also your work as well, that we've got to know what people are doing in a little bit more detail and from unusual suspects in a way that we didn't really before. We always used to rely on big annual conferences to get case studies and stuff. Now we're just full of case studies everywhere. I love that more generous, more open, more accessible, more sharing environment that we now inhabit.Bernard Donoghue: The webinars are coming back at the end of June. They'll probably be fortnightly and our first webinars will be the latest wave of visitor sentiment research so what are people thinking about now? Are they confident about going back into attractions? Are they confident about social distancing measures and those kinds of things?Bernard Donoghue: Also, we'll be doing case studies about post-21st of June, how visitor attractions are going to cope with that dilemma about being told, on the one hand, you can open with no restrictions, on the other hand, knowing well, that their visitors require and expect some degree of social distancing and protection of safety measures. How do you balance those two things? Those will be the first two webinars.Bernard Donoghue: Then beyond that, I suspect global domination. Kelly Molson: Of course. It's the obvious next step, isn't it?Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. I mean, I don't want to get Napoleonic about it all but I think we could be replicated around the world.Kelly Molson: Well, actually, on that note, what can people that are listening, what can our listeners do to support ALVA? Bearing in mind that I've had the bombshell that it's just the two of you that are doing all of these things. What can our listeners do to help you back?Bernard Donoghue: Oh, well, the most useful thing and I've said this a lot, honestly, it's been my complete saviour, is that we wouldn't have been able to achieve things like the reduced rate of VAT for visitor attractions, the continuation of furlough, the construction and the creation of the Cultural Recovery Fund, I mean, all of those critical measures for the tourism sector ... I mean, the tourism sector, by a long country mile, has been the part of the economy that's received the most financial support from the government. Bernard Donoghue: I think it's partly because we were hit first, hit hardest, and we'll take the longest to recover but it's also because we've had amazing data. I know data is a bit un-sexy but, honestly, we couldn't have got through the meetings that we've had with treasury and number 10 and DCMS and public health England and the Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Ireland governments without the depth of really, really useful data that visitor attractions have been able to provide us, what their percentage of furlough rates are, where they've had to make staff redundancies in what areas, where their visitor numbers have been affected, the difference between the dependence on domestic and inbound tourism, conversion rates in shops, average transaction values.Bernard Donoghue: All of that kind of stuff has just been bliss to work with because it's really good, really solid, well-evidenced data and as a lobbyist, that's just gold. Keep giving us information, anecdotes, case studies, and experiences as well. Those case studies can often feed through to government ministers in a way that just a raft of figures can't. If you can bring it to life, particularly, in small kind of epithets like sanitise the site, not the visitor experience and you can't furlough a penguin. Really short, understandable, Sesame Street type lobbying, that works.Kelly Molson: I love that. Keep sharing, keep cooperating, keep helping others, and we'll get through the other side in the best position that we possibly can.Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. I'm confident of it. Absolutely confident of it.Kelly Molson: Good. I'm really glad to hear that. Last question for you, we always end our podcast by asking our guests for a book that they love or a book that's helped shape their career in some way. Can you suggest one for us today?Bernard Donoghue: Actually, if I'm going to be really, really honest I'm not sure that I'd be in my job today were it not for Lady Bird books, that I had when I was a kid. Everything from Marie Curie to the plant life of Africa through Joan of Arc through to Christopher Columbus. Honestly, those Lady Bird books ignited my curiosity and the more I got, the more I started just reading about heritage and history and sciences and those kinds of things. Bernard Donoghue: Yeah. I mean, it's not quite Brideshead Revisited but if I was going to be completely honest, it would be the collection of Lady Bird books that my parents got for me from car boot sales and secondhand shops when I was a kid.Kelly Molson: Oh, I love that. I can remember them all lined up on the bookshelf as well with all the different coloured spines. Beautiful. All right. We'll choose one. Let's have a think, off-podcast, and we'll choose one. Then as ever, if you want to win that book when we decide what it is if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with, "I want Bernard's book" then you're going to be in with the chance of winning it.Bernard Donoghue: Actually, I have got spare copies of the Lady Bird book of London from about 1960. I'm very, very happy to donate it.Kelly Molson: Oh my gosh. Well, that would be fantastic. If you're happy to do that then all right, listeners, get tweeting and you could be in with the chance of winning. That's a really lovely gift. Thank you. Bernard, I've loved having you on today. Thank you so much. You are our season finale as well because we're going to have a little bit of a break over summer and we're going to come back again in October once all of you listeners will be so busy over summer with plenty to do. You'll have more interesting things to do than listen to this podcast every day. Kelly Molson: I'm really delighted that you could be our season finale. Thank you. I know how busy you are and, even more so, having had a chat today. We'll put all of your contact details and everything into the show notes so people can find where you are. If you're not following Bernard on Twitter, then, one, you're a fool and, two, where have you been for the last 15 months? Because, for me, personally, if there's been anything that I've needed to understand about what the sector is going through or go and find, it's either speaking to people on this podcast or it's go and follow ALVA and Bernard on Twitter and I'll always find out the answer to what I want. Thank you for being such constant support and thank you for all of the hard work that you've been putting out there through this pandemic. Really appreciate it.Bernard Donoghue: Oh, no. It's my pleasure and for those of you who do follow me on Twitter, I can only apologise for my behaviour on Eurovision song contest night. I just got carried away and it was inappropriate.Kelly Molson: What goes on on Eurovision, stays on Eurovision, Bernard. Don't worry about that.Bernard Donoghue: Thank you very much.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. Remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by rubber cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends August  27th 2021. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references:https://www.rubbercheese.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolsonhttps://twitter.com/TheChiefCheesehttps://www.skipthequeue.fm/https://twitter.com/Skip_the_Queuehttps://www.painshill.co.uk/https://twitter.com/PGriffiths_PHP Transcription:Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip The Queue, a podcast for people working in, or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip The Queue.In today's episode, everything has been turned on its head. Paul Griffiths, Director of Painshill Park, is interviewing me about what it really takes to launch a podcast, and why we started Skip The Queue in the first place. I think I should probably be worried about the ice breaker questions.Paul Griffiths: Hello, and welcome to this latest edition of Skip The Queue. And I'm your guest presenter today, Paul Griffiths, and I'm delighted to have a very special guest for you today, Chief Cheese herself, Kelly Molson. Kelly, welcome to Skip The Queue.Kelly Molson: Thank you for welcoming me to my podcast. Paul Griffiths: All right, it's an honour. I know we've been trying to get you on the show for a long time, so it's great to finally get there. Now, we're here today to talk about how you made a podcast, and how you turned Skip The Queue into the ultimate podcast for visitor attractions. But, before we do that, of course, regular listeners will know, we have to start with our ice breaker questions. Kelly, are you ready for some ice breaker questions?Kelly Molson: No, I don't think I am, if I'm completely honest. I'm starting to feel like this is a big mistake.Paul Griffiths: No, no. Well just think, all the people you've had on, and all the questions you've asked them...Kelly Molson: I am.Paul Griffiths: I think we're going very easy on you like you do for your guests. You hope you'll not get difficult questions. Now Kelly, through the series of podcasts, I think we've all learned little bits about you from various things you've said, or say. So, I've tried to theme these questions slightly on your interests. So, I know you're a big fan of all things '80s, so particularly music. So, I want to know, and our guests want to know, what is your favourite '80s dance floor filler of all time?Kelly Molson: Oh, okay. Do you know what, so this is really weird because we were just talking about '80s music on our morning catch up with the team. Because one of my team members... So, we've got a password system that we built ourselves, and it's called Kenny Loggins.Paul Griffiths: Nice.Kelly Molson: And one of... Yeah, I know, great, right? But one of our team was like, "Who's Kenny Loggins?" I lost my mind. Okay, so I think a great '80s dance floor filler, it's got to be Wham, hasn't it? I feel like something like Club Tropicana.Paul Griffiths: Nice.Kelly Molson: Would be a good choice. But I do, on the theme of Kenny Loggins, I do love a bit of Footloose, and I also am a massive Top Gun fan. So, Highway To The Danger Zone. I mean, is there anything more '80s than that?Paul Griffiths: It's the perfect song, isn't it? The Aviator sunglasses. Funny enough you should mention Club Tropicana, my son Barney, who I think I got mentioned before on Skip The Queue, his class got the '80s as an era for world music decade. Each class got a decade. And they had to vote on what song they wanted to sing and dance to. But Club Tropicana didn't make it. Kelly Molson: Oh.Paul Griffiths: They had Club Tropicana, Madonna's Holiday, or Madness' Our House. And they went for Our House as a class vote.Kelly Molson: Oh right. I'm disappointed. It's the spirit of the '80s for me.Paul Griffiths: Absolutely. Okay, now we all know that you are a big Spurs fan, so we're going to give you an option here, you've got to pick one of these two strikers, who is going to play for Spurs forever. But the one you reject is off to play for the Arsenal forever. Kelly Molson: Oh.Paul Griffiths: So, will you take Harry Kane upfront for Spurs forever, or will you an in his prime Gary Lineker to play for Spurs forever? The other's off to The Emirates Stadium. Kelly Molson: Oh, God.Paul Griffiths: Now, I'll give you some help here, maybe. Lineker scored 80 goals in 138 games for the Spurs. Kane's, at the time of recording, 166 goals in 242 games. Obviously, a lot more games played now with European football. But, who are you going to take, and who's off to The Emirates?Kelly Molson: Oh my God. This is awful. This is a dreadful question if you're a Tottenham fan, because Gary Lineker, Gary Lineker was just, I mean, he was just an absolute hero. Oh, and I can't imagine him. No, God, this is dreadful. I'm going to have to go Lineker. Yeah, no, I'd have to, because I just feel like I couldn't live with watching him on the telly, and him having played for Arsenal. No. I'd have to go for Lineker. I know that doesn't work out in terms of how many goals, and stuff, but...Paul Griffiths: No, but that ratio [crosstalk 00:04:58].Kelly Molson: It's from my childhood. Yeah, I couldn't bear that.Paul Griffiths: Oh, you Gazza as well as a package. He comes with Gazza [inaudible 00:05:07].Kelly Molson: I wanted to marry Gazza, genuinely, when I was a kid. Gazza was like my... Yeah, I thought I was going to marry Paul Gascoigne. Maybe I had a bit of a lucky escape there, though. Paul Griffiths: I was just going say, probably better you didn't [inaudible 00:05:15]. Right, and the other thing we know you love is visitor attractions, especially as you've spent so much time on podcast talking. So, there's some either ors for you here, would you go to, Disney Park, or Merlin Park?Kelly Molson: Disney.Paul Griffiths: Museum or stately home? Kelly Molson: Stately home because I really like the grounds as well that become part of a... Like that kind of outside space too. So, stately home I think.Paul Griffiths: Good answer. National Park, or landscape garden.Kelly Molson: Oh, that would be National Park.Paul Griffiths: Fair enough.Kelly Molson: I'm going to feel like I've upset... I'm going to upset someone along the line, aren't I? But how can I not say National Parks?Paul Griffiths: And that's what ice breakers are all about, but moving on to upsetting people, of course, we have to ask you, what is your unpopular opinion?Kelly Molson: Right, well I thought about this, and I've got many. I've got one about Lorraine Kelly, but I don't know if I'm prepared to take the backlash for that one yet, so, I might save that for another day. So, I'm going to go... Oh, I've got so many, I'm going to go with afternoon tea is rubbish, absolute rubbish. I don't understand why, when you get to a certain age as a woman, every... I don't know, all of your mates are like, "Hey, let's go out for afternoon tea." Like, "Really?" I'd rather go to the pub. Kelly Molson: And, I don't understand what meal afternoon tea actually is, because you always have it at about 3.00 o'clock. So, do you have lunch before you go, because I'd be hungry by 3.00. So do you have lunch, and then you have tea? And then dinner? So you're having an extra meal. And then you never get enough sandwiches. Too much sweet stuff, not enough sandwiches. And you have it with tea. I just don't get it. It's just not for me.Paul Griffiths: That's a really well thought out answer, Kelly, there. And I have to say, I'm with you on a lot of those points, although, as someone who's selling afternoon teas from this afternoon on, I'm a great fan of course. But ours do come with Prosecco, so maybe that's an added bonus.Kelly Molson: Yeah, I mean... Yeah, if it is a Prosecco based one, it elevates it slightly for me, but I still just... I don't understand the big hoo-ha about an afternoon tea. And I just... The idea of it is actually better than the reality I think. Paul Griffiths: I think that's going to be an unpopular opinion that splits a few of our listeners, but I think it's a good answer, and well thought out.Kelly Molson: Thank you.Paul Griffiths: It's okay. Thanks for coming to the show.Kelly Molson: You're very welcome.Paul Griffiths: No, it's great to have you. You know that we're all great fans of Skip The Queue, and I think we'll talk about it later, you've got an amazing, almost family, of listeners who almost become a little group that talk regularly together, et cetera. And it has been a lifeline for many over the last year, with resource, and with so much great content that's helped so many of us through lockdown, re-opening, sharing... I mean, the amount of times I've been in the car chortling at peoples' experiences because of the laughter of recognition because I've been there myself. Paul Griffiths: Now I think we want to know a little about how you set up the podcast, and I thought it would be really useful to start with because, over the podcast, we've learned a lot about you as well. But I thought it would great if you told us a bit about how you became chief cheese, and how you set up Rubber Cheese, why you got the name. I know you did tell us on another podcast, but people might not have listened to our American friends. So, just chat a bit about the background before we go into podcasting.Kelly Molson: Gosh. So, Rubber Cheese has been around for 18 years now, which is... It is the longest job that I've ever had in my entire life. I met my co-founder, Paul, when we were working at an internet company. So it was like... It was the first foray into people being able to build their own e-commerce stores. You know you've got Shopify now, where you can go on and load your own store. So, about 20 years ago, there was a version of that called iShop which is still around now. And Paul and I met working there. And I think there was just something. We just always wanted to do something for ourselves. So I think I worked there for a couple of years, got a bit of a taste for web stuff. I was a graphic designer previously to that. I used to design branding, and brochures, and marketing materials, all kinds of stuff, and packaging as well.Kelly Molson: And so, yeah, we were 24, and 25, and we just thought, "Hey, let's leave our jobs, and go and set up an agency, right? What could be difficult about that?" Paul Griffiths: What could go wrong?Kelly Molson: What could go wrong? And lots went wrong. But no, actually, it was great. It was... Look we didn't really have a huge amount of ties at that point, so it was like, "Let's just give this a go, and see what happens after a year." And about two months in, we won a really big contract with Tescos, via a friend of mine who I had recently reconnected with on Friends Reunited, which is really ageing me. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, we are ageing ourselves there, for both doing that one, yeah.Kelly Molson: Massively. And just... It started there really, so we won this big contract with Tescos, it was a two-year contract, it put us in a really great position of then being able to go, "Okay, well great, our rent's paid." And we could then start to look at clients that we were working with, and just grew quite organically. It was just the two of us for five years. And then we took on our first full-time employee, who... She came in as a designer. So she took my design role, and then that was at the point where I became Chief Cheese. So I then had to stop learning about design, so to speak, and start learning a lot about spreadsheets, and pipelines, and sales forecasts, and all the stuff that was really hugely complicated to my creative brain. Kelly Molson: And it's just gone from strength to strength really. So we've been really, incredibly lucky. I mean, there's seven of us. We're not a huge, huge agency, but we work with global brands, and I just think we've been so incredibly fortunate over the years to work with some amazing clients. Kelly Molson: And the last six, seven years, a lot of them have been within the tourism attractions sector, which is where we end up today.Paul Griffiths: What about the name, how did you come up with Rubber Cheese, because it is fabulous?Kelly Molson: Thank you. I really want to tell you that there's an amazing story behind it, but it's so dull. So Paul and I were, again, this is nearly 20 years ago, we were teaching ourselves to use Flash animation, which was all the rage back then. And we needed a website where we could upload stuff, and test it out, and see if it was working. And Paul was like, "Oh, we'll buy a domain. Rubber Cheese, that'll do." So we just bought this domain, and then when we left the company, we said, "Well, we'll take that domain with us, we'll buy it, and take it with us." Kelly Molson: And that was it. There was no... It was just, "Okay, well great, we've got this ridiculous name, that will draw some attention, won't it?" So, I'd love to say from a branding perspective, you should really think about your name, and what that means. But we didn't do any of that whatsoever. It just became this odd name. But it was quite... It was quite funny because when we'd start to go networking events, or even just a bank to pay in a cheque, how retro is that? You'd get asked, "What is Rubber Cheese?" And you'd end up having these great conversations with people about what it was. Sometimes I'd go to a networking event and people would go, "We've been waiting for you to turn up, because we really wanted to know what Rubber Cheese is." And it was like, "Oh, this works in a way." Because people want to talk to you and find out a little bit more. I think we did... We might have thought about changing the name at one point, but it's there to stay.Paul Griffiths: Perfect. And then now, she's been chief cheese, what more could you want?Kelly Molson: Exactly.Paul Griffiths: So, from Rubber Cheese, and obviously you've said, in the last six, seven years you've been focusing... Well, not focusing, but doing a lot of visitor attractions, talk a little bit about how you set up Skip The Queue, and what made you do that and why, if you're working in a number of sectors, you thought actually tourism, we'll focus on visitor attractions.Kelly Molson: So we have worked in lots of different sectors over the years. We've been really lucky. But what happened is, we started working so... I mentioned a global client earlier, we've been working with Pernod Ricard for, probably about 10 years, in various forms. And probably, it must have been about five or six years ago, that we started talking to them about the Plymouth Gin Distillery Visitors' Center, a fabulous place. And we were contracted to build a platform for them, which was a ticket booking platform. And what was really great about that project is, it was our first foray into understanding the visitor experience, and the experience economy, and a tourist attraction, and a visitor attraction, and what challenges they had. And it was the best project. Everybody loved working on this project. And it was such a good learning experience for us, and so that worked really well for them. Kelly Molson: They then rolled it out to the Beefeater Distillery, and then we've been working it again with four of the Whiskey Distilleries up in Scotland as well. And so, over those three years, four years that we've worked with them, we've just built up this huge amount of knowledge about what they were doing, and their challenges, and how we could make things work better for them, which then led to winning other projects in that sector. So, it was fabulous that we worked with Eureka, The National Children's Museum, who are just wonderful. If you haven't been there, please go. Find a child to take so that you can go. It's definitely, it's worth it, you know.Paul Griffiths: Brilliant. One of your podcasts with you a few episodes ago and listen to a chat about the new Eureka, that's really inspiring. I think everyone then was like, "I want to go, I want to go." Kelly Molson: Oh definitely. Yeah. And the new centre is going to be incredible, I cannot wait for next year when that opens.Paul Griffiths: We'll go with our Crocs and socks on. Kelly Molson: Oh, Michelle. Michelle. No Crocs and socks. Please don't do that. So yeah. It came from there really, and I think what was interesting is that all of the team are very much... We're all people that spend our money on doing things, rather than buying stuff if that makes sense. Paul Griffiths: Yeah, it does.Kelly Molson: We want to spend our money on things that make memories, so we love to travel, Lee and I, we travel a lot. We like to go to different places, we like to... Even like Christmas presents, we don't really buy each other stuff, we'll go, "Okay, well, why don't we go to the theatre, or why don't we go and..." That's what we would rather do with the money that we have. And we just spoke to the team, and said, "Look, we've never done this before, but we'd really like to focus all of our attention on one sector, what do you think?" And everyone was up for it. Everyone was behind it. And that's really where the idea came from because although we'd been working in that sector, we didn't know enough, it wasn't broad enough for us. So the podcast was a way for us to learn more from people. Paul Griffiths: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Kelly Molson: And so that's how we came up with the idea of starting it.Paul Griffiths: I should have said earlier actually, I must say thank you to a number of regular listeners who have emailed in or LinkedIn or Twitter with questions. And lots of these, I hope I'm covering in the next bit of the show. And a number of questions that people have sent in. And a lot of people are interested, Kelly, to know how you initially set this up from a brainwave of, "Let's do a podcast." To recording and turning Skip The Queue into what it is. But how did you start up in that sense?Kelly Molson: So, I guess there are quite a few facets to it really because you have to think about why you're doing it in the first place. So that for me is the first starting point. It's like, "Why are you doing it?" So, what are your objectives with the podcast, and ours was really... It was initially about education. We wanted to understand about the sector, understand about people's individual challenges, what the sector was going through. Good things, bad things. Kelly Molson: We wanted to meet people in the sector, so again, we wanted to expand our network. We really wanted to create a platform where we celebrated the people that worked in attractions as well, because we thought that was really important. There's a lot of things that happen behind the scenes in attractions that you don't realise when you visit them. And even the people that you're talking to front of house, you don't realise the kind of pressures that they're under, or you're sometimes not aware of the service that they're delivering you. So it was like, "Well, why don't we celebrate that?" And then, ultimately, it was a way of raising our profile in the sector as well. Kelly Molson: So from a marketing perspective, a podcast is a really great thing to have, because it can position you right in the centre of that industry that you want to be part of. So that was a big part of it. And then, we had to look at how we were going to do this. And what skills did we have internally to be able to set up a podcast? And so, I think Paul and I were like, "Okay, well we can host." I do a lot of public speaking for the agency anyway, so I was quite comfortable talking, although a podcast is very different from standing up in front of hundreds of people at an event. It's... In some ways, it's more uncomfortable, but I'll tell you why it started off being a bit more uncomfortable. And then you have to think about what format your podcast is going to be. Kelly Molson: So, is it going to be you just delivering your knowledge, or are you going to try and get guests in? What are those topics going to be? What are you going to talk about? How are you going to find the guests that you want to come on? Are they going to say, "Yes?" Is anyone going to say, "Yes," they want to come on this podcast, I don't know. What kind of content is there going to be? And then you have to really think about where your audience is because anyone can set up a podcast but not everyone is going to find it, and listen to it. So you have to think about, "Is there an element of community building that you need to do around this podcast as well?" Where you promote it, and how you get that out to the right people. And then, once you've done all of that, you have to think about, "Okay, well, who's going to edit this podcast? How are we going to actually make it a thing?" I can sit and record something. Kelly Molson: None of us internally had any podcast editing skills, and we made the decision really early, that nobody was going to learn that. It was going to be too much of a time drain for us. So we were going to outsource that element, so we work with Steve Folland, who is super. We knew Steve, he works and is based locally to where our office is. But he works on some really awesome podcasts. And he actually has his own podcast, Doing It For The Kids. He's got a really great podcast for the freelance community as well. And then it's down to, where are you going to host the podcast, you need some kind of platform to host it on? What are you going to record it on? And how are you going to promote it? So, we talked about building a community. If you're going to promote a podcast, you need things like graphics created. Are you going to have our podcast transcribed? That was really important to us. Kelly Molson: We wanted to make the podcast as accessible as possible to everyone, so not everyone can listen to a podcast. So we make sure that it's transcribed, so you need to have that done so that people can read the podcast if they want to. So there is a huge amount of things to decide on before you go, "Right, let's do it."Paul Griffiths: It's interesting. Lots of the points you've touched on, I'd like to delve into a bit more in detail, if we can, over the next few questions. A lot of people... One of the things that came up a lot when we put a plea out for questions, and what people want to know was costs. Because you just described things that people aren't doing free of charge. And I wondered if you could give an idea of what it costs to do an episode, or what it costs to set up, or whatever figures you're happy to give. It's just, I think a lot of people would be interested to know what sort of budgets they would need if they're looking to set up a podcast.Kelly Molson: Yeah, totally. So, I've thought about this in quite great detail. So because we knew initially we were not going to edit, we didn't have to buy any editing equipment. So I'm really sorry I can't answer any questions about that because genuinely, the best thing that we ever did was hire Steve to do the editing. He's a specialist. He makes everything sound brilliant. He even makes me sound funny sometimes. But what we did purchase were things like a really good microphone. So this is my microphone. A blue yeti microphone. Which was about £120, £150, somewhere around that. But that's a really great investment. It was a bit of trial and error actually, we bought other microphones that weren't that great, and ended up going back, but this has been the best one that we've bought. You need good headphones. These are average headphones. My good headphones I actually left at the office, and I haven't been back there for a while. So a good pair of headphones, noise cancelling ones are normally quite good. I don't know, 30, 40 quid for a pair like that. You could go higher if you want, but something around that price bracket would be fine. Editing an episode is an interesting one. You can hear my little dog barking in the background. Steve will edit her out.Paul Griffiths: Oh really?Kelly Molson: He'll work his magic somehow. You probably won't be able to hear her. But that for us is worth the weight in gold. So...Paul Griffiths: Desperate to be on the show, isn't she?Kelly Molson: She's such a drama queen. She's just... She craves attention. I mean, I wonder where she gets that from?Paul Griffiths: Ooh.Kelly Molson: But then you need to think about your site hosting. So we host our podcast on a platform called Simple Cast. That's about £15 per month. We record through Zoom. And Steve curses me for recording through Zoom because the sound quality is not great. We used to record through a platform called Zencaster, which again, is a cloud-based platform. It's about £15 a month. Now, the reason we stopped recording through Zencaster is, it became a bit complex for the guests, and sometimes some of the guests didn't really understand what they need to do, even if I'd sent instructions. People are really busy. They don't always read the things that they need to before they come on, which is understandable. Zoom, everyone was really comfortable using, because they were using it every day for all of their meetings. So it just became easier for us to do Zoom. So we've got a pro Zoom account. But obviously, we use that for other things as well, so I don't really tie that into podcast costs. But then you need to think about who's going to create your promotion graphics for this. We're lucky, we've got in-house designers. Kelly Molson: We've got an amazing VA who supports me hugely with our podcasts. So we've got templates set up, she will then create all of the podcast graphics from the templates that we've already got in place, but that is potentially a cost that someone needs to think about.Paul Griffiths: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Kelly Molson: Then I said we get it transcribed, each episode. It's roughly about $40 to get it transcribed. So there are lots of little things that you don't think about, that you need to think about in advance. We also run a competition. So there is a cost to that in the fact that you have to purchase the books that people recommend, sometimes they recommend two or three when I ask for one. And then that puts my budget up. And then the postage for that, and things like that. So I think we worked it out that the podcast probably costs about five, to six grand a year.Paul Griffiths: Oh. Kelly Molson: Which isn't a huge amount if you've got... It depends on what your marketing budget is, but it also then depends on what the returns, or what your expected returns are for that podcast, and for that amount.Paul Griffiths: Yeah. Kelly Molson: So you have to work out... And that takes you back to why are you doing this in the first place? And is this a worthwhile investment for you?Paul Griffiths: I think that that would be one of my later questions actually. Thank you for that Kelly, that's really honest, and I think that's really useful for people. Because I think that's one of the things that a lot of people, me included, probably felt that you go on Zoom, you record speaking to someone, bang, it's up live. But actually, there's so much more work behind it which is just quite frightening.Paul Griffiths: You obviously manage to attract brilliant guests, and I think they get better and better all the time, but how did you go about... Well, firstly can you tell us about how you got the initial guest, because you had no podcast, you were starting up. You had to invite 10 people on, and you had some fabulous people in those early days, real industry leaders coming on the show. And then, how do you now go about getting guests and picking topics, and thinking about what people might want to hear about?Kelly Molson: Yeah, so it was really difficult to get guests when we first started because you haven't got anything to show them. You've no proof of concept, you're just getting in touch with people and saying, "Hey, we've started this podcast, it's about this subject, we'd really love you to come on and talk to us, how do you feel about it?" And we would get emails back from people, and they'd be like, "Well, can you send us an episode? What is it? How many listeners have you got? How long..." We were like, "Well, zero listeners at this moment in time. Hey, we're listening." So, it was quite tricky. We lucked out a little bit, I'm not going to lie. So we had the CEO of Paradise Wildlife Park come on. Which, for us, was quite a big coup, because they're quite local to where we are, but the luck that we had is, one of our team members was actually related to her. So we had a little bit of an ins there already.Kelly Molson: And then I think some of the others we, again, it was just... We maybe just got them at the right time. They had something that they wanted to talk about, that they were quite keen to get out in the world. And then, actually, it was a case of, I stalked people a little bit. So, I went to the visitor attractions conference at the end of 2018, or no, it was in 2019. So, I'd been stalking people that had spoken at the attractions conference previously, and saying, "Oh, I really loved your talk, it was really interesting, I wondered if you could come on and talk about the same thing on our podcast?" And that's how I got a few of the early, of the second series people, come on. Kelly Molson: So Jules Ozbek, who I think is fantastic, I heard her speak at the Visitor Attractions Conference at the end of 2019, and then I... I basically just stalked her a little bit on LinkedIn and asked her really kindly if she would come on the podcast, which she agreed to. And also Abigail Olive, as well, who was awesome, from Castle Howard. Her story about... She shared the love story.Paul Griffiths: Yes.Kelly Molson: You must go back and listen to this episode because it's a brilliant story. But it was about how they... There's a wonderful love story that had happened that then brought them all of these incredible Chinese tourists to the place. And she was fabulous. And I think once people hear the calibre of guests that you can get, it sort of spirals a little bit from then.Kelly Molson: But those first ones were... It was really, really tough. And I just think you've just got to keep ploughing on, and asking people. People will say no, but don't be offended by that. Some of the people that have said no, would probably say yes now if I went back because I can showcase what we've done, and who's been on.Paul Griffiths: And so, how about now Kelly, do you have a long waiting list of guests lined up, you plan your series, don't you? So, are you finding it easier to get guests now, how do you go about it now, now you're that you're already onto this podcast?Kelly Molson: So, I still stalk people, if I'm honest. So, what I think, what's great is that the guests we've had on... There is something really lovely about the attractions sector, in that, there is a community there already.Paul Griffiths: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.Kelly Molson: And what is wonderful is that we've had guests on, that I've then been able to say, "Who do you think that we should have on? Who do you think has got a really interesting story?" And I can remember doing this with Carly Straughan, and Johnny Lyle as well, both of them. I had really good chats with them after their episodes. And said, "Could you recommend some people that you think that would be really great for us?" And they're so well connected, and they know everybody in the industry, and they were like, "Yeah." And they sent me lists of people. They were like, "You need to speak to this person, this person would be great." And so, that's how it spiralled. But because they knew them, obviously those guests come on, and then they knew more people and more people. So, that's one of the best ways, is like saying to your guests, "Who do you think should come on and talk about this? Because you know the industry better than we do right now." Kelly Molson: And then I do stalk people. I go on to Twitter, and like I said, there is quite an active attractions community on Twitter.Kelly Molson: And I see who people are talking to, or I see Blooloop is a fantastic resource, Attractions Magazine is another great resource. I see stories that come up in there, and I think, "Wow, that would make a great podcast episode, let's talk to them." So I've got my eye on the Black County Living Museum at the moment. So, I'm doing a little bit of stalking at the moment, because I'd love them to come on and talk about their Tik Tok fame.Kelly Molson: And so, stuff like that happens where you see what's going on, and you think, "Great, they would be awesome. And then you just reach out to them." But you do... I do get people to email us. Not very often actually, but occasionally people email us and say, "I think this person would make a great guest on the podcast, or we've got this thing that we'd love to talk about." I have to be really conscious that there are sometimes will contact that... I don't want the podcast ever to be salesy.Paul Griffiths: Right yeah.Kelly Molson: For me, it is an education piece, and it's really important that it stays an education piece, so I'll try to get that balance right between the kind of people that do come on, and what they're talking about and those topics. So, sometimes people will say, "I've got this thing that I've launched, and I want to come and talk about." And I don't know that that's a good fit for the audience at that point. So...Paul Griffiths: Fab. And what about the promotion of a podcast, from the early days of getting it known, I guess was word of mouth. And now, how do you promote it? How do you keep gaining more listeners, and how have you got your success?Kelly Molson: Well, it's lovely that you think it's successful. It is interesting because I think that success is really subjective. So, again, it goes back to your objectives, and what you are trying to achieve from it. Because our top one was always about education, we weren't that focused on what the numbers were. So, people are, "Oh, how many downloads do you get?" It's not really that relevant to us because that's not what we were... We weren't aiming to be number one in the podcast charts. So, the way that we've promoted it is by understanding where the community is. So, where do the people that would be our listeners hang out, and it's mostly Twitter. Kelly Molson: It's a very active community on Twitter, so that's really where we do most of our promotion. So we've got a Twitter account, specifically for Skip The Queue. We will post out on there when the new episodes are coming, and we'll make graphics and snippets, and we'll do as much as we can to promote the guest.Kelly Molson: It's actually probably more about promoting the guest than it is about promoting the podcast if that makes sense? So we really try to highlight those people and raise them up. And what's great is that so many people then help us spread the word. So, the best people to share, and promote the podcasts, are the guests that come on. And we've been really lucky that we've had great guests that have wanted to do that. We've had other great guests that have come on, and that's it. They've come on, they've done the podcast, they've shared their knowledge, we don't hear from them again. They're not, they haven't shared any of the Tweets, or any of the posts. And that's fine. If that's not their bag. But then, you do get a huge proportion of people that really want to. They're really proud of the fact that they've been on. They want to share what they've done with other people. And that's really where you see the numbers start to grow, and the interaction happen. We've got some really incredible loyal fan base.Kelly Molson: You are one of them Paul. You're always super generous with sharing what you think about the podcast, or what you've learned from it. And Mark Ellis does as well, from the National Arboretum. And that's how you spread the word. There are other things that you can do, which we haven't done as actively as we could. But things like going on other people's podcasts is a really good way of promoting your own podcast.Paul Griffiths: Right.Kelly Molson: And I was very kindly invited on the Attraction Pros podcast, which is our... It's the US equivalent. Josh and Matt who run that are fabulous. And honestly, all of our listeners should subscribe to that if you're not already because they get some really interesting guests on there, and they ask great questions as well. So that was a really lovely opportunity for us to cross-promote. And Matt and Josh have both been back on our podcast as well. So hopefully, that's helped and crossed the big pond. Kelly Molson: Sometimes it is also about getting a big name to come on the podcast too. And that drives up your listeners because they... So I reached out, oh God, I was so nervous about doing this. So I asked the ex VP of Disney if he would come on the podcast. And I was terrified. I sent this email on LinkedIn thinking, "He's never going to reply to me." And honestly, five minutes later he emailed back, and was like, "Yeah, I'll come on." "Oh God, now I've got to actually interview him." I was so nervous. But that was incredible, the value that that gave to the podcast, and how it was able to position it. After that, no one said no to coming on the podcast since that point so...Paul Griffiths: Lee Cockerell and you really are hard-hitting, aren't you? And of course, I think from his perspective, I guess because he's got a brilliant weekly podcast. Dan's got a brilliant weekly podcast. So they are, as you said, going on other people's podcast as a guest is a great way. And you said, was a brilliant episode of you on Attractions Pro, as was then, Matt and Josh came on yours. You talk about not worrying about the stats. Is there a little bit of you Kelly, that thinks it's like Top of The Pops, back in the old days, and you're wanting to see where you are on that list, and seeing how many people are listening, I know I would?Kelly Molson: I don't check it very frequently. I'll be completely honest.Paul Griffiths: Really.Kelly Molson: No, I don't check it very frequently. I started to do a top three on Twitter. Like the top three downloaded episodes, because I thought that would be interesting for listeners to know. But I did check it before we recorded this because I knew you were going to ask, so the most downloaded episode at the moment is The Making Of Harry Potter.Paul Griffiths: Oh yeah. It was a-Kelly Molson: With Geoff Spooner So, that was a great episode. And that, at the moment is on about 270 downloads. So, that's like 270 individual brand new downloads. And at the minute I think we're just about to hit 6,000 downloads in total. I don't really even know what that means though. So, again, I'm just not that bothered about it. It is a niche podcast. It's not for everybody.Paul Griffiths: No.Kelly Molson: And it was never made to be for everybody as well. So, I just think, for me, the numbers don't really matter that much.Paul Griffiths: Good answer. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And I suppose for you it's a quality, not quantity because you're getting some people who are in that business, and going back to your original objectives, might well want to work with a digital agency, and you guys are therefore on the tips of everyone's tongues I guess, which is achieving your objective.Kelly Molson: Hopefully, yes. If it's achieving one of the objectives, that would be wonderful.Paul Griffiths: Yeah. Absolutely. The next question was all about the tech side, and I think you've already talked about a lot of things like the equipment you need, but also... So, when you're planning your episodes, so your guest has agreed to come on. You've contacted them, and stalked them through various social medias, they know they're being followed, and it's like, "Better say yes, otherwise Kelly is never going to leave me alone." Tell me a bit about what you do after that to prepare your guests, or to plan the episode. Kelly Molson: So, a lot of the time I will have invited that guest on for a specific reason. So, there will have been something that I've seen, that they've been talking about, that I'll think, "That would be really great to understand a bit more about that, and I think our listeners would like that as well." So, that's normally how it starts. Sometimes we have a pre podcast chat, so it might just be a five or 10-minute chat about what we're going to talk about. Sometimes it might just be, I'll email over and say, "Look, I heard you speak about this topic, I think it would be great to come on to the podcast, how do you fancy it?" If they say yes, then I work out a few pre questions. So, I don't like it to be super structured, I mean, obviously, there is a structure to the podcast. Kelly Molson: You all know that there's ice breaker questions coming. You know that I'm going to ask for an unpopular opinion. But the rest of the podcast is... I try to structure it in a way where there's three or four key questions that I really want to understand, but the rest of it is quite conversational, so it can go off on a bit of a tangent, and sometimes that's a bit more relaxed for the guest. But also, some guests, they like to know what we're going to be talking about, and what they're going to be asked. So, by giving them three or four questions that structure the topic of that conversation, it makes them feel a bit more at ease because they know what to expect. So that's what I do. I just... And then there'll be other times where I just think, "This person's really great, and they would make a really great guest. I think they'd be a great guest." But I might not have seen anything that I think they've been showcasing, or they've been talking about. Kelly Molson: So then we'll have a chat and say, "What could you share with the listeners?" What would you think would be relevant for them right now? Have you been through anything recently that's been a learning curve for you? Have you had any challenges that you're happy to come on and talk about?" Or, "Is something really exciting just about to happen that you think our listeners would be really interested in understanding more about why that's happened?" So it's a bit of a mixture.Paul Griffiths: Brilliant. So, I'm sure some of our listeners today have been listening in because they are thinking about starting a podcast, or they've... And I think it's been really great, Kelly, you've been so honest. Because I think it isn't an easy process it seems. There's a lot of work involved in it. I think it's great that people know that. But if people were thinking of starting a podcast, what are your key tips, or advice you'd give them?Kelly Molson: So I think that it's going back to what we talked about initially, so it's, "Why are you doing this in the first place? What are your objectives for starting a podcast?" And they're going to be very different, depending on what you do as an organisation, whether you're a supplier to the industry, whether you are the National Football Museum, for example, came on. And they talked a lot about why they started their podcast. Paul Griffiths: Yes of course.Kelly Molson: And a lot of that was to facilitate the fact that they weren't open, they'd got all of these fantastic artefacts, shirts, all of those things that they could talk about, and have conversations about. And they've got a lot of content already that they knew that they could do something with. So the podcast seemed like a natural way of getting that out to the public when they couldn't visit the centre. So, go right back, and think about what it is that you want to achieve by setting up this podcast. Kelly Molson: And that might education, it might be getting something out to the world that you've got to share. It might be... It genuinely might just be, you're an agency and you want to position yourselves in a certain sector. There's other agencies that we know have podcasts who work in the tech sector, for instance. So they focus on having tech guests, and those kinds of conversations. And then you really need to think about where your audience is, because I don't think it's enough to just have a podcast. You really want to be building some kind of community around that podcast. Or it's just output all the time. There's no engagement. There's no... It doesn't go to a deeper level. We've had so many incredible guests on there now. And a lot of those guests have turned into people that I can just call on about stuff. Or I can email and say, "How about this?" Or, "Oh, I saw this thing that I think that you'd really love. Here you go"Kelly Molson: And I like that. I think that there's a real positive energy to that. So, really think about what your objectives are? Who your audience is? Where they are? What do they want? What does your audience want to listen to? What is going to be relevant to them right now? We launched Skip The Queue in the middle of 2019, which was very different to the middle of 2020. And so, when we brought it back in 2020, for us, it was all about, "Okay, maybe COVID situation has given us a little bit of an opportunity here, because our audience is going to be, probably, far more engaged this year than they would last year. They've got a lot of time on their hands, sadly, with venues being closed and people on furlough. What would help them right now? What would be useful to them right now?"Kelly Molson: And so, we pitched it as, "Let's get people on that can share their experiences of how this has impacted them, what they're doing to plan for re-opening. What things are they thinking about past COVID? How has this changed what their marketing plans might look like? How has this changed their digital strategy, and what that might look like?" Kelly Molson: So, really, really think about what's relevant to the audience that you're trying to get in front of, at that time. Yeah, I think they're my top tips.Paul Griffiths: You've mentioned objectives quite a bit, Kelly, which is fascinating during this. And do you feel, when you sit back or look back at why you started it out, you've ticked those objectives? I mean, it sounds like you have, but do you feel that you have?Kelly Molson: Yeah, I do. And I feel really proud of what we've achieved actually. I think that I've always been quite honest and said that I think that actually, the podcast was the thing that got me through last year, because although we work in the sector, we were very fortunate to be relatively busy last year as a digital agency, because of the situation, and people having to pivot, and make those changes. But it was still really, really tough, and for me, being able to speak to someone new and really interesting every week, or every couple of weeks, that could come on the podcast, was just a bit of lifesaver really. It really helped me. But yeah. In terms of the objectives, has it ticked all the boxes? I mean, absolutely. I mean, what we know now about the sector, and what we know about the people in it, and the network that we have in it, is phenomenal. I couldn't have asked for more from it. Kelly Molson: And it has really brought some really interesting things. So, for example, I talked about going on the Attractions Pro's podcast. Because of our podcast, we've been asked to go on to other people's podcast. And that's helped promote our services. And our services, and what we do isn't really what we talk about on the podcast that much. So, that's been really nice. We've been asked to speak at webinars. We were always going to exhibit at the Visitor Attractions conference last year, which we did. But I think the fact that we had the podcast helped me then get a speaker slot at that as well, because they could hear that I was, maybe not a bumbling idiot. Kelly Molson: I don't know? So, maybe that bolstered my chance of getting a speaker slot. And we've been asked to contribute to publications, we, like I said, we've got an amazing network, we've built up all of these fantastic connections and community. But actually, it has brought leads as well. It has brought us leads and things into the business, where people have said, "Well, I was looking for an agency and found you, but then I heard the podcast as well." And so it reinforces your understanding of the sector, which I think makes people feel more trustworthy towards you. And more confident that you know... You'll understand what's important to them in their challenges.Paul Griffiths: Yeah. No, I think it's really done that. And moving forward, obviously, the last year has been successful, as we've said earlier, some amazing guests. What do you see... How do you take it forward? How do you take Skip The Queue forward, is it more of the same, or do you branch off into different things? Or what do you do next?Kelly Molson: That's a really good question. So, there's lots of things that I've been thinking about doing. We are going to have a little bit of a Summer break.Paul Griffiths: Yeah.Kelly Molson: And we're going to come back in October. So, just because we've been doing this continuously for a whole year now. And it wasn't what I expected. I always thought we'd do... I thought we'd make it very seasonal. So we'd do eight or 10 episodes, and then have a break, and then do more. But I loved it so much last year, and genuinely it was keeping my spirits up, I said to Paul, "I'm just going to carry on. I'm just going to keep going through." But it is definitely time for a little bit of a rest while all you guys open up this Summer, and go crazy with all the visitors that are going to come. I might just put my feet up for a little while.Kelly Molson: I definitely want to do some panel events. There's some things that Hannah and I, Hannah Monteverde from BeWILDerwood, spoke about. About women in the sector, which I think would be really interesting. Paul Griffiths: Yeah.Kelly Molson: And I'd like to get more... I'd like to do more panel events in terms of hot topics in the sector as well. And so, have three or four panellists that come on and talk about things. I really would like to do an event. I would love to do some kind of Skip The Queue event. I don't know what that would be, whether it would be like a little mini-conference or a live podcast event. I think live podcast... Steve would probably go insane listening to this, and go, "No, don't do it." But I think I would really like to do something where we get everybody together because it has really felt like a bit of a community effort where people have got behind us.Paul Griffiths: Yeah.Kelly Molson: And it would be really nice to put something on when we've got everyone together when we're able to do. So, I've got something like that ticking around in my head. Definitely more of the same as well. If that's what everyone wants to hear. But I take this opportunity to ask, what would our listeners want? If you're happy with the way it's going, great. We'll do more of that. If there are extra things that you'd love us to do, or you think would be really interesting, then email me at kelly@rubbercheese.com. Don't be shy.Paul Griffiths: Brilliant. Kelly, thank you so much for sharing everything with us today, but more importantly, thank you for everything you've done in the last year. These podcasts have been a lifeline for so many of us. We've all loved listening, and you've built up this family of regular listeners who comment all the time. And I know people look forward to it, and can't wait to download and listen. And you see that now, how quickly are responding to your episodes, and we've commented on it. But I know, from what you've told us today, you've really got into just how much work it is. So, on behalf of everyone, all the listeners, thank you so much.Paul Griffiths: But we can't finish, of course, without a book recommendation, and I hope you've got several. So you have to drive your marketing budget through the roof, so, Kelly, I want to know a book that you would recommend, and our listeners can get by re-Tweeting this episode, and saying, "I want Kelly's book." On Twitter. So, what is your book recommendation? Kelly Molson: So, this is the book that I have probably recommended the most throughout my career. And I read it about a year into having set up Rubber Cheese, well maybe about six to eight months into setting up Rubber Cheese, because somebody said to me, "Oh you need to get out, and you need to start networking." And I was like, "What the hell is that then? I don't know. What is networking? What do you do?" And they said, "Oh you go to meetings, and you meet loads of interesting people, and you just talk to them." And I was like, "All right." I was 25. I was like, "Okay, that sounds weird, but I'll do it." But somebody recommended Dale Carnegie's How To Win Friends And Influence People.Paul Griffiths: Really?Kelly Molson: And it is a really old book, but it is genuinely the book that I credit with changing my whole perspective about how to listen to people. About how to have really good conversations. And ultimately, it is the book that I've given out the most to people. So, I think a really lovely girl that I know, I was mentoring her for a little while a couple of years ago, and that was the first book that I sent her. And said, "Have a read of this, I think you'll really enjoy it." And it's just the one book that I've sent out religiously to people. I've made Lee read when he started his photography business. Because I just think there's something about it that just makes you really understand that it is about the other person, more than it is about you.Paul Griffiths: Mm-hmm (affirmative).Kelly Molson: And I think when you're younger, you maybe... Well, me personally, when I was younger, maybe didn't really understand that fully, about how to listen to people, and understand what was important to them, and letting them speak. So, that would be my recommendation.Paul Griffiths: Well, thank you. And as I said, if you want that book, re-Tweet this episode link, and put, "I want Kelly's book." And Kelly will send you a copy if you're the winner. Kelly Molson: I will.Paul Griffiths: If you're the one lucky winner, I should say. She won't send them out to everyone, because Kelly's budget doesn't stretch that far. Well, Kelly, thank you so much for coming on Skip The Queue, it's been so insightful, so brilliant. And thank you for coming on.Kelly Molson: Oh, you're welcome. I really enjoyed this Paul. So thank you for being a fabulous interviewer today.Paul Griffiths: You're very kind. Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions, that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes, and transcriptions from this episode, and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

The special guest for this I'M4FUN podcast is Franceen Gonzales, Chief Experience Officer with WhiteWater West Industries. Franceen's background in senior roles with Great Wolf Resorts and Six Flags, coupled with her 7+ years with WhiteWater, has catapulted her to be twice named to Blooloop's Top 50 theme park influencer list. Franceen is known throughout the industry as a significant advocate of safety for the amusement industry. She was named Chairwoman of ASTM's F-24 Committee, the first woman to hold that position. At WhiteWater, Franceen works tirelessly to oversee project development in a way that ensures the customer journey is the highest priority. Join Dennis as he and Franceen have a frank and honest discussion about not only the waterpark sector, but our industry as a whole in terms of product changes, consumer expectations, and safety.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends August  27th 2021. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.Show references:www.linkedin.com/in/jamesrpenfoldwww.itv.com/imacelebrityjunglechallengewww.itv.com/coronationstreettourhttps://village.emmerdalestudioexperience.co.uk James PenfoldJames is the Controller of Partnerships over at ITV and the name behind some of the prolific IP attraction, tour experiences and event ventures – including Coronation Street The Tour, Emmerdale Village Tour and the brand new (for 2021) I’m A Celebrity… Jungle Challenge. James has garnered an indisputable reputation during his 20+ year career at the forefront of leading British media and entertainment branded content formats. An instrumental and respected figure within the industry, James has directly influenced some of the most pioneering live events, UK visitor attractions and big-brand agency collaborations of recent times. His strategic vision, creative energy and unequivocal commercial drive has captured the essence of Intellectual Property (IP) immersive content as he continues to push the boundaries with trailblazing concepts for the biggest players within the media landscape today. With business development disciplines stretching across mergers and acquisitions, brand licencing, IP visitor attractions and participation services, cross platform content distribution, media strategy and commercial partnerships, James has carved out an illustrious career when it comes to brand experiential.Now, a distinguished and well-networked figurehead for immersive experiences and visitor attractions, James’ name is associated with new-format arena tours, big-brand visitor experiences, digital cinema trials, TV channel launches and live entertainment events.  Transcription:Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with James Penfold, Controller of Partnerships at ITV, the name behind prolific tour experiences including Coronation Street The Tour, and Emmerdale Village Tour. We discuss translating big brand IPs into commercial ventures, what the most successful formats are, and the brand new I'm A Celebrity Jungle Challenge, opening later this year.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's such a pleasure to see you again.James Penfold: Thank you. It's great to see you today.Kelly Molson: Well, I mean, you say that now, you might not say that after the questions that I'm about to ask you.James Penfold: No, no. Listen, I'm a regular listener and I don't know what's going to be thrown at me, so yeah, I've taken my Xanax and I'm ready.Kelly Molson: I had a lot of fun putting these together. I've gone for a theme. You might notice what the theme is. Okay, let's begin. Would you rather eat a fish eye or drink blended fermented duck eggs?James Penfold: The duck eggs, definitely.Kelly Molson: Oh, really? You'd go for the duck eggs? But the smell though?James Penfold: Yeah. But that's the eye thing, and I always say, the eyeballs or anything, it's that kind of crunch moment, I suppose. Mind you, a fish eye is quite small, isn't it? I was kind of thinking ... Yeah, no, I'll have to stick with my answer, sadly.Kelly Molson: All right. Blended duck eggs, okay. I was not expecting that. Right, who's funnier; Ant or Dec?James Penfold: Oh my god. Well, listen, I love them both, but it's got to be Dec.Kelly Molson: I agree, but then I had a bit of a crush on Dec when I was younger, so he's always been my fave.James Penfold: Yeah, I'm not going to say who my crush is with, but they're both lovely.Kelly Molson: Maybe we'll find out later when you've relaxed a little bit. If you could be any Coronation Street character, who would you be?James Penfold: William Roach. Ken Barlow. Because who doesn't want to work for 40, 50 years in the industry and get so many great storylines?Kelly Molson: He's been a bit of rogue as well though, hasn't he?James Penfold: Absolutely.Kelly Molson: He's been a hit with the ladies.James Penfold: Completely. And a returning hit with the ladies. And he gets great one-liners, he's been involved in amazingly iconic plots. So whenever I ask colleagues within the industry, if any actor can have anything, it's longevity within the industry, isn't it? So yeah, I'll go that road.Kelly Molson: Great. Thank you for answering those. Right, tell me what your unpopular opinion is?James Penfold: My unpopular opinion? Well, let's just say that this is formed off the back of a big reunion. It was controversial, certainly then at the time, certainly on the trips, it was simply that the live recording of any single is 99% of the time not as good as the single recorded in the studio. And obviously, I used to say things like, "Well it's not as good as in the studio," and yeah, it didn't go down that well.Kelly Molson: I think you're probably right though, aren't you?James Penfold: Yeah. I mean Adam Rickitt took it personally, but I think we'd all have to agree. I Breath Again, sitting in the fish tank, needs to be done in the studio.Kelly Molson: I cannot wait to talk to you about this. So James and I had a kind of pre-interview chat a few weeks ago, and I did share my huge love ... I mean, who doesn't love Ant and Dec really? I mean, maybe that will come up as someone's unpopular opinion some day, that they detest them. But I've been such a massive fan, I kind of grew up with them over the years as well, and when they came back a few years ago and brought out Ready to Rumble again, I lost my shit watching that episode. I can remember my friends texting me, it was like, "What is happening? This is amazing." And then for that to kind of expand into the whole big reunion thing was just phenomenal. But we will come to that.Kelly Molson: James, at the moment, you're Controller of Partnerships at ITV, which sounds like a very grand title. What about your background? How did you get to where you are today, and what big highlights have you had in your career?James Penfold: So, like anyone, I think career is all about a bit of a zigzag. Not many people go straight to the end role they hope to achieve. So, left school not knowing at all what I wanted to do, always absolutely loved television. I mean, was an avid fan of Multi-Coloured Swap Shop every Saturday morning. But how did I, therefore, end up in a BT technical apprenticeship at the age of 16, having just done the first year of GCSEs? So we were kind of guinea pigs on that front. Ageing myself here. But BT ran an amazing classic apprenticeship scheme. Three years, going across, two months at a time, every facet in the business. So you could be on estates one week, you'd be on customer residential services and installations, you'd be on externals, so working in the man-holes and those sorts of things and learning about that aspect, marketing, sales, customer service in the sense of operator services. It was a great induction, and all the while being able to go on block release, again, doesn't happen very often, paid for by the company during the day, three months at a time, to colleges and that to get a technical qualification. And then I was very grateful when they offered me, "Did I want to go to university and do a degree?"James Penfold: So I do those three years later than most, probably, at 21 rather than 18. But that meant that I was absolutely ready for it, I knew what I wanted to do, I loved commerce and commercial and the marketing sales. And so I went to Birmingham University, studied B-Comm there, Bachelor of Commerce. Again, coming back into BT in the summer holidays. The internet was just kicking off and so I was fortunate enough to have the choice of, "Which division do you want to go back to in those holidays?" And I went into a division that was just a startup division called the Internet and Multimedia Services. That was actually the precursor days of BT becoming an internet service provider, it was all about the narrow band, but we quickly learned, or the company quickly learned, like everyone, that whether you're an AOL operator or anybody else, that once the people had logged on, what were they going to go to? Because it was the early days of search engines. There wasn't a great lot of content.James Penfold: So I just opted to be a content development manager, which was basically business classic, business development. So looking to acquire content fees. So, in the day, you'd go to BT's various partners and obviously think to what you personally liked, whether it was Top of the Pops, the music, Bloomberg for financial services, and you'd pick off these various brands and go and do deals to acquire that. That moved into broadband services, then worked on a number of trials that were pioneering, I suppose, towards all the things we use now. Multimedia payphones. So they were a whole trial of payphones across Cardiff and Central London for people coming when not many people had email, and certainly, not many people had laptops at home and computers at home, but they did want to be able to send email messages or check their messages when they were between stations or travelling between offices.James Penfold: And then the early precursor to BT TV, which was an ADSL trial, so again using copper wire to send TV signals down it. Well, again, where's the content there. So I was lucky enough to ... again, all hands to the pump really when you're launching these trials, so I opted to talk to the music companies. So EMI, Sony BMG, [inaudible 00:07:33], to provide a variety of content to prove. And then we were really just looking to the customer to say what they wanted. These were only closed user group trials, two or three thousand people in Ipswich and those sorts of things.James Penfold: My boss then got snapped up by Sky. Sky was really taking off as a digital satellite broadcaster, and that inherently launched something called Interactive Services, or the Red Button services, which many of us might have used. He stayed very briefly at Sky, I should say, because he didn't get famously on with James Murdoch, but quickly learned that there was a real desire with multi-choice TV. The reason we had those 200, 300 channels, it's obviously refined itself now as technology has moved on, there are other ways of accessing content. But we settled on a company called the Interactive TV Group. I'm fortunate for Adam Faith, the singer, he'd set up a financial TV group based out of Wapping. Sadly, three weeks into operating that, he passed away. But the facility was available, and my then boss at the time, John [inaudible 00:08:37], picked it up at an absolute song, and we went in. And he'd reformed a team from people he'd worked with at BT and Sky to become an Interactive TV Group, so launching TV channels for other parties here in the UK, and some further afield.James Penfold: I was a business development manager at first, looking after studio facilities and winning clients to use those. And then also looking then into interactive services, which is, again, taking back, I suppose, the internet skillsets, some red buttons. We used to provide those red button services. If Sky didn't develop them for you and do all the coding and the content, then probably the Interactive TV Group did at the time. So BBC, all the Children In Need apps, the multi-screen sports, the Glastonbury multi-screen sports. Not all of it was just developed in-house at the BBC.James Penfold: That took me then to a company called Interaction TV because brands and branded content was becoming very much niche, but certainly a fad at the time, and obviously it's come back in many facets now. I was a commercial director at that company for about four years, which took me to 10, 11 years ago when a colleague, and now my boss, William Van Rest who had joined ITV, picked up the phone and said, "Do you want to come in for a conversation?" And I was lucky enough to literally join ITV.James Penfold: So, probably 20 years after starting my career, always having wanted to work in television, never thinking, "What's my route to being that?" Sadly I'm never going to be in front of a camera, not while Ant and Dec are around and other greats on like that. And there the role, it wasn't defined, which is always, again, a great opportunity where I thrive from. It was about classic business development or sales, looking at what the opportunities are, "Where aren't we making use of the assets that ITV might have?" ITV was absolutely just coming off the back of a transformation where the regions, all the various regions, Granada, HTV, Meridian, London Carbon, LWT, were all combining in to become under one brand for once.James Penfold: And so that journey began. And the team at first was called Brand Extension, which I think was really simple, did what it said on the tin, which was literally, if there's a brand that would have intellectual property that ITV has, owns or makes, what could we be doing with it that isn't the core show itself? And that took me into actually working with all the producers who make all of our shows, whether they're in-house or in the ITV Studios group or third parties, to see where there are opportunities. And often there aren't, but every now and again you strike lucky and there is.Kelly Molson: That's such a crazy path to get to where you really wanted to get to. I love hearing how people have got there. And that must be such an exciting thing to do, to have that opportunity to say, "We have this amazing brand that people love; what more do we do with it? How do we make that even more immersive for people? How do we build this into an experience?" What a fantastic role.James Penfold: Yeah, no, I mean I'm one of a great team, and it's been and is an incredible train set to play with. And you don't take any opportunity for granted, and the show must come first, and absolutely respect the IP in that sense. But sometimes it's not always necessarily the show itself, but there's something that happens off the back of that show. Or you feel, "Right, okay, a tour is warranted off the back of this." Whether that's a theatrical tour, whether it's an arena tour, whether there's obviously a set tour opportunity as we change buildings that we own and opportunities present themselves. Or, increasingly now, again with colleagues, the whole app generation, and games and gaming, and the natural brand extension that you might have to the very successful quiz shows that we produce.Kelly Molson: Well, this is one of my first questions really, because essentially, breaking down what you do is you translate big brand IPs into commercial ventures. So it's taking something and making it more than just a TV show.James Penfold: Yeah.Kelly Molson: What qualities does a brand need to have for it to succeed beyond the telly? What are you looking for?James Penfold: Let's see. It helps if it's got a super fan base. I mean, there is always one ... not one rule, something that we certainly began to find over the years. Again, because ITV's been around for 65 years, and it's a commercial broadcaster, but really this notion of brand extension beyond just simple merchandising is something that's only probably looked at in the last 10, 12 years. A super fan base is great. A show that's certainly finding its feet, so second, the third series, so you don't jump at the opportunity too quickly. That's not always the rule, and I'll come back to the big reunion. Broad appeal, longevity, again, that helps because you've got the fan base and it's really aligned itself with that fan base, viewer engagement. Repeatability is obviously a great commercial opportunity because one-offs tend to be expensive, and that's again a very good learning point. And sometimes we do things that are more celebratory about a show, and they're commercial, but ultimately they've not got the rerun factor or the repeat factor.James Penfold: And then a decent amount of context. I think that's another important thing. So with context, that could be timing in the sense of an anniversary. A talent anniversary, a show anniversary, or related events, so a season in the year where it's just summer festivals, or even just like the exhibitions field where certain things happen in spring and Easter and you think, "Do you know, God, that really resonates with what we do as a show?" And that was a really good example when we took This Morning to the NEC for three years running because as a show it lends itself, it is live, it lends itself to an audience. And you think of nature as a news and consumer affairs show, if you think of what the subject matter is, the broad base of it all, then God, you don't even need to think what the floor plan of the exhibition is, and you don't even really need to change from what people already do for exhibitions. You're just layering our IP onto it. So that's an easy one.Kelly Molson: Some of the things we're talking about today are what you're involved in terms of TV shows and real-life visitor experience. So we've got Coronation Street The Tour, we've got the Emmerdale Village Tour, and again, we'll mention the Big Reunion, there's been various tours and live experiences that have spun out of existing TV shows as well. But then you've also got something brand new that's launching this year, which I'm not going to mention just yet, we're going to keep the suspense, we'll talk about that a little bit later. What are the most successful formats that you find translate from the telly to real-life experiences?James Penfold: So I suppose the obvious ones, and this isn't unique to ITV, but certainly, it's about Mass Market big entertainment, stuff that appeals to the broadest audience; so with Syco and Fremantle, X Factor was an obvious tour in its day, at the height of unknown people becoming music talents, celebrities, recording artists, and then going on tour. You have it with the BBC, and they still do it with Strictly. With ourselves again, BGT, Britain's Got Talent, absolutely lends itself to scalability, and scalability leads to commercial success, and it leads itself to repetition. But everything has a life cycle.James Penfold: For ourselves, purely on your own, Saturday Night Takeaway. I've talked about anniversaries; Ant and Dec. What are we? Five or six years ago now it was their 20th anniversary in the industry, they wanted to do something, we'd actually spotted the opportunity; why are Ant and Dec not on tour? Well, there are many reasons. They're very busy and not everybody wants to be on tour the whole time. But the Saturday Night Takeaway show, it's just mass-market entertainment, and it's a show that's so professionally produced that when it airs as a live TV show if you arrived as an audience member, you don't have to arrive hours and hours and hours beforehand. You're slotted into your seats. There might be a few hits done to record some interim piece, some inter-show pieces that play out in the ads or links to that, but then you're straight onto the show. And the 90 minutes you see in the TV audience is the 90 minutes you get at home. God, if you're in that audience, there's a live buzz to it. So, taking that to an arena tour, 30 dates, matinees and evenings, 15, 16 days with the boys on tour around the country, absolutely lent itself. And hats off to colleagues in my team who helped to deliver that. The production company, ITV Entertainment and ITV Studios Entertainment, and of course working with Live Nation as a promoter. So there’s a great marry of partnerships.James Penfold: Big Reunion, again, that's the one, I would say, where it didn't need to be into its 10th series, it didn't need to be coming back like Saturday Night Takeaway was doing after a bit of a hiatus. That was, "Okay, it's been certainly 10 years since we've seen a lot of these acts in arenas or in larger-scale theatres. What have they gone on to do?" Michael Kelpie and Potato, one of the ITV labels, had had success with bringing back Steps for Sky, and they've made that format. I've looked at that format and there was an obvious journey there. And then it was, "Okay, how does ITV do that?" Well, we do it on the scale, so why bring back just one band? Why not let's bring back five every series? And we did two series because basically, there were about 15 real acts that when we thought about it and looked at chart successes and also their back story, what they've gone on to do and where they all are now, we didn't even have to air the first episode. And Twitter was really a thing by then and it was like, "Well, obviously there's going to be a tour." I can assure you there wasn't going to be a tour.Kelly Molson: Oh, so the public requested that? It wasn't the plan to start with?James Penfold: Well, there was a kind of concept. When you work with that many artists and that much talent and its confusing schedules, you think, "Okay, this could lend itself to be but let's be ready, waiting in the wings," but consumer demand, instant feedback. And then, by picking the right partnerships, you've got to be able to move quickly on those sorts of opportunities. And they don't often come along in that way.Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's fabulous. I mean, that show, for me, was really like reliving my childhood, because I'm of a certain age.James Penfold: Much younger than me.Kelly Molson: Thank you. I doubt that very much though. But I was into a lot of those bands at the time, on some level, and it just brilliant watching what they'd gone on and done, and then trying to get them back into shape to do the routines and stuff. It was so funny and so interesting.James Penfold: Kelly, I'm in the exact same situation as you. Don't think I'm not. As somebody in an 18-year-old apprenticeship, or working in and around Soho as I did, because that was where my apprenticeship was based, it was based in the West End of London, love pop music; if you'd ever said you'd then be working with those individuals, sitting on a couch, sometimes on short journeys, sometimes on long journeys, and sometimes in the craziest situations. Well, the show was playing itself out, and of course, the stories were, and then we were getting to take them on tour at the time. So yeah, no, you don't get many opportunities like that, and I'm ever so grateful.Kelly Molson: Fantastic experience for you. So, with the TV, what's interesting is you've obviously got a captive audience with the TV, and it was really interesting to hear how that audience demand kind of spurred ... there was obviously a little idea about the tour, but it really spurred it. How do you strike that balance between developing products to reach new audiences? How do you get that right?James Penfold: So I think, importantly for us, and this is done by trial by error, is you've got to, I suppose, look at does it feel right? Is it a natural extension for us, ITV, to be taking? Because we're not a theme park operator, we don't do reparatory theatre, those sorts of things, and there are other parties out there. And one of the principal roles, I suppose what my role's evolved into now, is looking at the licensing side, where there are many entities who might choose to look at something from a slightly less obvious position and take the thought.James Penfold: But from our perspective, it's really looking at ratings, it's looking at social media and how that talent engages with their audience. Do they engage with their audience? Don't they? Are there natural wins? Because of course, people can always involve them and move their careers forward. A really good example is Gino D'Acampo. So I think we did three tours with him. So Gino, incredible talent, was iconic from his season when he was on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here, he was obviously becoming a prominent TV chef, he was on This Morning pretty much every week or every other week. And then he starts getting his own show, and that's the test for the commissioners. They're almost like a litmus test; they spot these opportunities and take some of the pain out of it for us. And it was Gino ... I think was Italian Escapes, and that was where he'd go to a different part of Italy.James Penfold: And then we were talking again to a promoter, I think it was clean and Gyro, could he live, who also looked at Ed Sheeran, so talk about different ends of the spectrum for them. And they were talking about theatre shows and the successes they have, and they'd said, "Would Gino be interested?" And there was a quick conversation to be had, "If the talents are interested, then great." Of course, he was. And for him, it suits his purpose, because there he is, having done I'm a Celebrity, having done some TV chef shows, having done This Morning, and now with his own Italian Escapes, but what does he actually stand for? And he wants to evolve his career and put himself differently. So I'd like to think three sellout tours in theatres, 1500, 2000 seats a night, which we were told we were doing well at because we're doing 14 nights a run. And it wasn't just Gino who goes on stage and cooks, because that would have been obvious. It's Gino who goes on stage and does what he does best, which is to engage with the audience. The cooking almost becomes auxiliary to the evening.James Penfold: And then, quickly really, we learned that the audience ... it becomes almost a 50/50 divide. 50% of them were there because they wanted some cooking advice or to hear his anecdotes about Italian Escapes and what it's like to be on the road and cooking the food of his homeland, and 50%, of course, enjoy him because he was suddenly an overnight success in Celebrity Juice. And that audience wanted quite a different thing. And of course, Gino being Gino, he would play to the Celebrity Juice audience, and it made for an unpredictable but incredibly entertaining show. The first tour, it was fairly locked down in what they produced and what it would be and what the format would be. Number two and three, "You go for it. You know what you want to do. As long as you pitch it correctly to the audience as to what they're going to be getting," so Live and Unplugged was tour number two, "Then you've got success."James Penfold: Another good example is, I suppose, This Morning Live. So there we'd been approached by Media 10, the guys who deliver Grand Designs and the Ideal Home Show for a number of years. In fact, for probably nearly about eight or nine years. And they hit us when it was right to have a conversation, because I'd thought, "This is madness?" I'd be challenged; "Why aren't we doing festivals? Why isn't ITV more involved with festivals?" Because you had the Good Food Program for the BBC, you had The Clothes Show historically being such a success.Kelly Molson: Yeah, it is.James Penfold: And in truth, we have always been very successful in the daytime, and I think with This Morning, it was really ... well, we looked at all the shows, so Good Morning Britain, Lorraine, This Morning, and Loose Women, and could you take them all on the road, and would there be an exhibition? And then you start getting into the realities of cost, of logistics, of actually the quite disparate audiences that do come across those four different shows and what they want to engage with. And we quickly settled on This Morning, and then just simply This Morning Live, in that it has cooking in it, it has health issues, it does fashion, it does entertainment. And ultimately, at the heart of it are Phil and Holly, or Eamonn and Ruth at the time. And we learned very quickly that we were taking the show on the road whilst we had a replacement presenter team in London. So you'd have Phil and Holly in Birmingham and Eamonn and Ruth in the studio, or vice versa. They'd hand to each other. Great segments of the show were able to be done from the NEC.James Penfold: Yes, there were costs involved, but to us, that was more of a marketing vehicle. It worked really well for Media 10, because they absolutely know how to deliver a live exhibition. And from a Stand's perspective, and from all those consumer brands that want to sell to our audiences who would normally take advertising slots in those shows anyway, it was a no brainer for them to want to attend. And it was on for four days a week every year, 40 to 50,000 people attending over those four days.James Penfold: And then you get into the great hurdles of, "Oh my God, it's almost too successful in terms of capacities." And fans being more than just, I suppose, the typical ticket buyer and visitor. Everyone wants to meet the talent. And so meet and greets, I think that became a whole performance item in itself.Kelly Molson: So, a huge success. You can see that the formats work, you've got huge engagement from people, and then a global pandemic comes along and kind of smashes us all in the face. I mean, it's affected obviously your plans and things that you've got in fruition quite extensively; how has it affected you and how have you tried to overcome some of those challenges this year?James Penfold: Yeah. So if we look back to this time this year, or actually go back a further two, three weeks, when the UK government was still slightly in denial of the nature of this pandemic-Kelly Molson: I think we all were, weren't we? Because I think we were watching the news going, "Oh, it's all happening in Italy, isn't it? Oh yeah, that looks bad."James Penfold: Yes, the broad public were, but don't forget, ITV is a stakeholder in ITN, so we produce Channel Four News, Channel Five News and ITN News, the three variants, different editorial flavours. So I don't think you could avoid it from that point of view. And I'm based in Gray's Inn Road. Well, I was based in Gray's Inn Road, which is where the news studios are, so I think there was a real feeling there, most importantly about just hand sanitisers introducing themselves.James Penfold: But the thing came to was three weeks out of not even lockdown, us beginning to talk about it, so probably we're talking the back end of February. I was approached by my then division director to say, "At a board level, we think we need to curtail or stop set tours." So the set tours of Coronation Street and the Emmerdale Village Tour. Both were external sets, although there were some interiors to be seen, as in interior sets on the Coronation Street set. And that is principal because, first and foremost, we're a broadcaster and a producer of content, a producer of successful TV shows. These serial dramas have been going last year, 60 years for Corrie, and this year we're celebrating 45 years for Emmerdale.James Penfold: And so hearts and minds, which is a phrase that's very well known now within the business, is looking after staff wellbeing. And staff wellbeing is, therefore, the actors, the talent, all the production staff, all those many people that come on board. So, quickly the sets began to lockdown, and a wrapper was put around the productions to enable them to come on production for as long as they could. That wasn't feasible from the moment the national lockdown happened, and we had to then wait and work with health and safety committees and other people, and with the government, to work out what the safe way through production was.James Penfold: So from my perspective, it was, "Please turn off tours." And we were just starting the season. And we had loads of pre-bookings across Emmerdale, and we had loads of booking across Coronation Street. And of course, we'd just recruited our seasonal workers in the sense of our tour guides for that year, many who come back each year and have other roles when the tours aren't operated at weekends. So I think it was straight away onto the phones with Emmerdale, our partner, Continuum Group, Continuum Attractions, who will work with on many tours and attractions. And obviously, from their perspective, there was a quite rightful debate, "Are we jumping the gun and doing this too soon?" Because they weren't seeing that advice in the tourism market for their attractions. But ours was, "No, this is what we need to do." And we didn't want to let consumers down at the last minute, because with Corrie certainly, people travel quite a distance across the country to come to those weekends. They book hotels in advance, they book transport in advance, and so then it really is about you're just going into a situation of customer management.James Penfold: So there it was a case of, "Listen, sorry, we need to cancel down tours. Obviously, refunds were immediately available if you wanted them, or you can basically move to hold a voucher and we'll contact you as soon as." So that's a complete curtailment of that business, and it became then a reality that even with unlock-down, lockdown, over the backend of summer, that again the situation was even just worse. Think of where we are now in winter. So autumn and the end of summer last year, everyone was feeling great in the UK, and around most of the world. Some had fitted in summer holidays or done stay-cations and things like this. So again, from a consumer point of view, it's all about proactively managing the comms to them.James Penfold: But at the same time, for us, because we don't have a lot to say on this because we're not a true classic digital attraction, just enough communication where you're engaging, giving the consumers what they need to know. Of course, at all opportunities, offering refunds. When we began to realise, "Do you know what? We aren't going to be opening these in autumn, because if anything the pandemic's getting worse," and this was even before new variants, it was, "Okay, well we hope to be able to bring this back in in 2021." That's a realisation now that probably that isn't even a reality. And of course, it's incredibly disappointing to the team. Thank God in the early days, when the furlough opportunity was there, we absolutely used it. From a customer point of view, social media, thank God we've got decent outlets to be able to contact customers. And from being a broadcaster with viewer services, we were able to really talk about it's a business for them to help us to get in contact with as many consumers as possible.James Penfold: And even now it's a difficult one because we look to the advice from ALVA, we keep across Blooloop, we listen to your podcast, we talk to experts, we're talking with Continuum every day, and we have health and safety advisers from the tourist market as well. But from a set tours point of view, it just isn't realistic. There is nobody in any of our offices, we all work remotely. All the editing of the shows is pretty much done remotely, incredibly. In the early days of the pandemic, every show was produced remotely. The galleries all became laptops, so editors and directors were sitting at home. And the two teams that make the soaps have done an incredible job of creating cohorts where nobody overlaps, you're in your cohort group, and you move through, based on your plotline, through those cohorts so that you always stay safe. And then you have the people who go on sets, their costumes are already hung out for them, and their makeup they do themselves.James Penfold: And so I suppose the thought on the ITV Studios drama and production side, the thought of even entertaining us being able to welcome the members of the public onto those sets currently is still untenable. So the good news is very exciting plans for next year. What this has given, I suppose, the pandemic, let me come to the positives, is it's given us a time to reflect. We were very lucky six years ago when the old set became available, Coronation Street. The Granada building was sold quite quickly after 55 years of ownership by ITV. It would have just been quickly demolished, but I was like, "No, that can't happen. Let's think about this."Kelly Molson: Sacrilege.James Penfold: Yeah. Well, and also, to the developer who bought it, "When do you need the building by? You've got planning to do, you've got plans to put into council; when do you need it by?" "We need it probably in about 24 months time." So for 18 months, we were able to open that set, and 900,000 people came through that set tour in that period of time. And that's a success. And that felt completely natural.James Penfold: But now when we're working in a different environment, we're part of a living breathing production, a production community, so we're looking at it from a filming perspective and from that visitor perspective. The exciting thing is we are able to look at now how do we make the tours more accessible? Is there technology that can almost enhance them? We've worked with groups like Antenna. We've long resisted audio guides because we love the interpersonal nature of the tour guide, but actually, if you think of the amount of content and archive and things like that, it can actually bring sets to life, and everybody's got a different character they like on those shows, and different memory of the storylines. Some people like the '60s, the '70s, the '80s. Some people remember Emmerdale, and I'm going to say ITV sacrilege when it was called Emmerdale Farm. And so there are those angles to it. And it's given us time to reflect.James Penfold: Completely exclusive to you, where we're building a new building next to Coronation Street in Manchester. The pilings underway. The intention is to have it open by next Easter. What's it going to serve? It's multifaceted because it addresses multiple problems. The scriptwriters and there are about 200 in Corrie, normally meet in hotels and go to conference centres to marry all the plot lines together and to do the timelines. Again, with the cast, with all the principal production team, they'll now be able to haggle on the top floor of this almost event space building. The middle floor will have an exhibition space, which will be used by us from a Coronation Street perspective. And the ground floor will have a 70 seat theatre for those, like me, who believe that people will come back in some form to a similar environment. And we'll have a café and we'll have a retail outlet.James Penfold: So I'm going to call it a visitor reception area, as opposed to them just meeting somewhere in Media City and then we walk them over to the set and take them on the set there. That will allow us to be seven days a week from an experience point of view as people engage with the brand. It really plays for Peel, the landowner of Media City, because there's a brand new tramline that opened ... it was pretty much all whilst we've been in lockdown, that serves the Trafford side of Manchester and is a much faster link into Manchester. There's a stop right by ourselves and the Imperial War Museum, so there'll be that stop. There'll be a café there that which I say will provide to. So that's playing to an opportunity, that if we'd not had the pandemic, would have taken quite a lot longer because we've been able to do stuff when the set's been closed, when the filming hasn't happened, and it's a great positive.James Penfold: Something similar is happening with the village for Emmerdale for hopefully the backend of 2022 so that we can get more people into the village and really celebrate the sets and do Q and As and audience with cast and things like that. So yeah, so positives.Kelly Molson: Oh, I love that you've come on and dropped a few little exclusives for us, James. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, many of our listeners are in the attractions world, and they will be completely sympathising with the situation you've been in terms of having to shut down the sets, but it's such a different challenge that you have. I mean, the attractions now, they're planning for their reopening in May time, and are incredibly excited about that and what that looks like, that roadmap. But your roadmap is so much longer because of the logistics of filming, and I hadn't really taken that into consideration at all, how difficult that would be because obviously, you can't have the general public on the sets when you've got to protect the people that are on the sets recording each day. It's a huge challenge.James Penfold: I mean, they're such substantial principle revenue streams, and the most important audience drivers for ITV. The soaps still regularly get between six and eight million, depending on where we are in the storylines, five days a week. And that's incredible in the streaming platform and non-linear broadcast era that we all live within.James Penfold: That said, colleagues within my team who look after our Ninja Warrior brand, in lockdown we started last year with eight licensees and eight sites. By the time we get to the backend of summer, there will be 15 sites, because people are proactively taking and opening sites because they've seen properties becoming available. Previous guests of yours have talked about the nature of retail and leisure finally beginning to merge, which we haven't seen in the UK. It's been prevalent in Asia, very strong in the USA, and to some extent mainland Europe. But that's created a real opportunity. And so there's a real opportunity in that, and obviously those, they're nothing to do with show production, and so they can open, as you're talking about, with these May time scales, and I hope they go on to have really successful years. And whatever sort of restrictions we have in 2021, let's hope 2022 then gives them a full run.Kelly Molson: Yeah. And there's going to be a huge resurgence in people wanting to do things. We're all desperate to get back out and have new experiences because we've been stuck between our four walls for so long. But this brings me to something very exciting, which is the I'm A Celebrity Jungle Challenge. Is it opening this year? Maybe this year? Who knows at the moment? Tell us a little bit about it.James Penfold: I can tell you that based on current government guidelines and what we know of the roadmap, we're absolutely opening this summer. I mean, for me it's very exciting. It's the fruition of a three-year project in a sense, from talking with Peel Holdings, the landowner, to then working with various design companies and settling with Scruffy Dog Productions, and then the exciting part, which we started right back at the start of this podcast, working with the producers of the show. And Richard Cowles, Tom Gould and that ITV entertainment team are genius. I'm A Celebrity is his format, Saturday Night Takeaway is his co-format, Love Island is his format. That team know how to do live programming. And being able to look under the bonnet of what is the essence of I'm A Celebrity if we were going to make it an attraction, has been really exciting.James Penfold: So yeah, Media City, or Quayside Media City I should say, what was the Lowry Outlet, will be opening this summer.Kelly Molson: Oh, I'm so excited. You know, the team, we've already started planning that we'll come and do it as one of our Christmas do adventures because our Christmas do is always a thing. We go and have an experience somewhere. We went and did the Crystal Maze challenge, and then we'll go for dinner and drinks and stuff. And as soon as I mentioned this, they were like, "That's it. That's the Christmas do."James Penfold: I know, Kelly, I need you there soon. We need those guinea pigs for early summer, so I'll be calling you up.Kelly Molson: All right, we'll bring our Christmas to do forward. That's right, we missed out on one last year, so we'll be there.James Penfold: There are no restrictions on tinsel, so you're welcome.Kelly Molson: Fabulous, because I do love a bit of tinsel. Has COVID changed how you will deliver that visitor experience for that attraction, though? Because I think one of the things that we've been talking about quite a lot with attractions are actually some of the positives, of the visitor experience is better when the capacity has been reduced. So, for example, you want to go and visit the Mona Lisa. Well, on a normal day, if you go and visit the Mona Lisa, there are thousands of people that are doing it with you at the same time, and so that experience is just not what you might have hoped for. But actually, if you did it ... well, not now, but when they're open and you've got that reduced capacity, it's a nicer experience. It's more engaging for you. Maybe people will pay a slightly higher price for that as well. So how has that changed how you open and your strategy?James Penfold: So, obviously, when you design any of these attractions, and again, we work with good partners, and we're not experts. We hold people to flame as to how we want it to look and we want it to be delivered 100% to be true to the format, but you've designed it for this sort of flow, for this capacity, and people use it in this manner. And of course, only when we start getting to the customer testing, which we're pretty much just approaching now, will we see how that happens. Now we layer on the COVID factor, and the COVID factor is exactly what you've said. Probably a little more time in that attraction, yes, reviewing the price for that, but the capacity is being reduced, but then the experience is so much better. I think also all leisure attractions are getting price-sensitive, but I do think, and I hope when you see it ... the layering over the IP of the Jungle Challenge, and whether it's the thematic, and even a safety video from Ant and Dec, through to the gameplay we've put on what would traditionally be a rope and swinging course and a bit of Ninja Warrior in the middle, really does bring value to it. So I think we've got to, and we are, reviewing what that customer experience is.James Penfold: Similarly, on the tours side of things, it's absolutely about capacity. Less people maybe in tour groups, certainly fast-tracking this notion of pre-flow that colleagues have had, which is, "Okay, tour guides are wonderful and they give the as scripted and in the tone of a show version of events," but we know, especially as we look to the younger audiences, that it absolutely is all about the selfie moment, the racing to the bit of the set that you know most. Again, I mentioned characters earlier, so we've got to look at that. And then that looks at, "Okay, well how do we then convey some of the knowledge and depth and years of plot lines, characters, and why things look the way they do? Why the houses aren't as big as real houses would be and all those sorts of things." Then we're looking at the audio guide, or certainly the interactive guide, and how smartphones, that again really have got pretty much mass market penetration now across all age brackets, how we can use those.James Penfold: I think last week somebody raised a really ... so the podcast that aired last week, and I can't recall the chap's name, but oh my God, never did I think we'd be looking back at QR codes. And-Kelly Molson: QR codes; 2020 was the year of the resurgence for them. Who knew that was going to happen?James Penfold: Absolutely. It's like the spectrum of tourism, it's suddenly back.Kelly Molson: I was going to say Atari, but that would super age me.James Penfold: Yeah, no, that was 10 years before me.Kelly Molson: So we're coming to the end of the podcast, but one more question to ask you. But can you let us know what kind of things that we might find in this new attraction? Are there going to be any disgusting eating challenges? Because I feel like that is up there with what people really want to do.James Penfold: Listen, I'm A Celebrity just had its 20th season, even in an amazing cast in Wales, did record audiences, and I know we've got pandemic viewers and that people can't go out, and there are many facets to the show. And so I think this is the first iteration of what you're going to see and what we'd like to do with the I'm A Celebrity brand, working with not just property partners, but also with operator partners that we're currently engaged with. This one is all about the Jungle Challenge and getting stars because, at the heart of the show, you get those stars, and it is for the more physical aspects of it. So you've got to climb 15-meter rock-faces, you've got to zip line across the venue, you've got to do a treetop trail that doesn't have much to support you other than the harness you're clipped to, and so that'll test your heights. There's a spy ride, if you so wish, that you can strap yourself into and travel 20 miles an hour around the rooftop. There's Escape the Jungle, which is our variant on Ninja Warrior. So we've packed a lot into this. And if you want to test, again, your test of heights, there's Leap of Faith, where you go and you jump, you hang onto a cushion for as long as you can before you drop to the ground.James Penfold: Yeah, but don't worry, you're in a safe be like.Kelly Molson: Oh, it's going to be great. I feel super excited about it already, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of our listeners will be booking up tickets as soon as they can. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing that, James.James Penfold: Pleasure.Kelly Molson: We always ask our guests for a book that they would recommend to us, and it can be anything really. I used to always ask ... it was a book that had shaped someone's career, but I think actually just a book that you really love, or one that you would just like to share with our audience would be great.James Penfold: Okey-dokey. Well, I've changed my choice as of this morning, and it's courtesy, because of course, working from home, or even when I work in the office, I've always got ITV on, playing in the background. And a book that I found absolutely charming, and not a lifesaver, but just really resonated with me in this lockdown, being single, working on my own, working on a project quite distanced with a team that's quite disparate around the country, has been The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and the Horse. Charlie Mackesy.Kelly Molson: Oh gosh.James Penfold: And it comes into mind today because I saw him over my shoulder just because we came on the call because he was on This Morning and it's being made into a movie, which is incredible. An animated movie using his beautiful artwork. And as I understand it, it's going to extend the characters and give some background to those four wonderful subjects. And I just feel, with all that's going on, whether it's headlines in the news this week on any level, whether it regards ITV or not, that you put a bit of love out there and we'll all be good, and we'll get through this storm, as he likes to put it.Kelly Molson: Oh, do you know what? That book has given me so much comfort over the years, and I'm so glad that somebody ... nobody has recommended that book yet, I'm so glad that you chose that one today because it really does sum up what we all need right now. And like I said, for me, it's been a huge comfort on many different levels, and I think it has been a huge comfort for a lot of people through the lockdown as well.James Penfold: Absolutely. And yeah, you can turn to any page of it and there's a quote or a phrase that you can draw something from it. And I think there have been many books prior to that, and I'm not going to bankrupt you as others do, so that's my book.Kelly Molson: Thank you, just the one book. Just remember, I ask for one book, people.James Penfold: Yeah guys, just listen, one book, please. That's all Kelly wants.Kelly Molson: Costs me so much money. Oh, thank you so much, that's a great recommendation. As ever, if you want to win a copy of that book, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words, "I want James's book," then you will be in with a chance of winning a copy. And you should do that because it is a really lovely book. I'm so glad that there's going to be a film as well, that's really nice.James Penfold: Yeah.Kelly Molson: James, thank you.James Penfold: Can I say thank you, by the way? Because I listen to your podcast every week; fascinating insights helps all of us, and yeah, so I'm really pleased that I was invited on. Thank you.Kelly Molson: Aw, that's very kind. All of our guests have said very lovely things about the podcast and I feel super humbled by it. I actually felt really humbled that you put us in the bracket of ALVA and Blooloop there, who are phenomenal organisations that have been doing brilliant things for attractions throughout this. Thank you, James, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you today. It's been wonderful, so thank you so much for your time.James Penfold: You're very welcome, you take care.Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast. 

Adam Sandy has one of the coolest titles ever... Roller Coaster Sales & Marketing Director at Zamperla. Adam loves sharing the newest innovative coasters from Zamperla and is a frequent contributor at Blooloop.com.  This conversation has lots of twists and turns and we get to share our nerd-level love of all things roller coasters and amusements. Adam talks about the roller coaster sales process and how listening to his clients and having boots on the ground is one of the most important aspects of getting it right. For more on Zamperla: Website: https://www.zamperla.com/ Twitter: @zamperlarides For more on Adam: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adam-sandy/ Twitter: @Adam_F_Sandy (Roller Coaster Sales Guy) Instagram: rollercoastersalesguy   To connect with AttractionPros: attractionpros@gmail.com #weareallattractionpros

Dr. Kathryn Woodcock is a professor at Ryerson University and was named to Blooloop's to 50 Theme Park Influencer List 2020. Her work and research on human factors engineering is a fascinating study that we get to dive into on this episode. Kathryn walks us through some key design factors that could enhance the experience for everyone, and sheds light on how to play on a guests intuition when trying to influence their behavior. Ultimately, it's about keeping people safe AND preserving the incredible experience that the designers intended.  For more on Dr. Woodcock: https://www.ryerson.ca/woodcock/about/   If you know of someone who would be a great guest on the show, or have an idea fo a topic for us to explore, email attractionpros@gmail.com. For more on Josh and BackLooper: https://www.backlooper.com/ josh@backlooper.com   For more on Matt and Performance Optimist Consulting: http://performanceoptimist.com/ Matt@performanceoptimist.com #weareallAttractionPros  

Welcome Ohana to the Disney Guys: Uncensored. This is episode 96 recorded on January 18, 2021. We are your hosts Bub and Tim tonight we have the privilege of sitting down with Carlye Wisel, who was recently named one of Blooloop's 50 Theme Park Industry Insiders, and is the go-to magazine reporter for all things Disney, in fact she has far too many accolades to list here… we'll also take a look at our favorite snacks, touch on some retirement news, and we'll update you on all of the goings on for our big Episode 100 Bash! As always, please remember, there is no eating, drinking, smoking or flash photography on this podcast! Season 2 Survey!: https://forms.gle/G19LGsw9tWACTAha6 TIMESTAMPS BUZZZTUBE (Patreon Content): 2m 30s NEWS: 5m 17s MAIN TOPIC (Carlye Wisel): 10m 35s RHOM (WDW Snacks): 1h 1m 36s CONTACTS EMAIL: TheDisneyGuysUncensored@gmail.com PATREON: Patreon.com/thedisneyguysuncensored REDBUBBLE: TheDisneyGuys.redbubble.com INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thedisneyguysuncensored/ TWITTER: twitter.com/thedisneyguysu YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2JihbRREpJkR0B45TYaeFA?fbclid=IwAR27jpah8vlEECjlaGIW7CBQT9uu3oZ1zF-iDDvUijmACL7Z1qjX4nfS41w

This week on ‘Green Tagged: Theme Park in 30' we examine the slow US recovery and what some attractions are doing to diversify revenue.Stories covered: The Malaysian Tourism Ministry reveals recovery plans for pandemic-hit travel sector; Reuters reports US $500B travel spending dive, slow recovery through 2024; Academy Museum of Motion Pictures exceeds pre-opening fundraising goal by leaning mostly on private investors; The Dublin Zoo also leaned on private investors to raise operating capital; California's theme parks may not open until summer 2021; Kennywood offers annual pass pandemic protection; Wine Bathing in Japan; Blooloop reports How Monterey Bay Aquarium is engaging AND generating revenue with Animal Crossing on Twitch; Imperial War Museum opens online center; Falcon's Game Suite is the Karaoke Lounge of Gaming; and the International Association of Mixed Reality Sports is here.

This week on ‘Green Tagged: Theme Park in 30’ we examine the slow US recovery and what some attractions are doing to diversify revenue. Stories covered: The Malaysian Tourism Ministry reveals recovery plans for pandemic-hit travel sector; Reuters reports US $500B travel spending dive, slow recovery through 2024; Academy Museum of Motion Pictures exceeds pre-opening fundraising goal by leaning mostly on private investors; The Dublin Zoo also leaned on private investors to raise operating capital; California’s theme parks may not open until summer 2021; Kennywood offers annual pass pandemic protection; Wine Bathing in Japan; Blooloop reports How Monterey Bay Aquarium is engaging AND generating revenue with Animal Crossing on Twitch; Imperial War Museum opens online center; Falcon’s Game Suite is the Karaoke Lounge of Gaming; and the International Association of Mixed Reality Sports is here.

This week on ‘Green Tagged: Theme Park in 30’ we examine the slow US recovery and what some attractions are doing to diversify revenue. Stories: The Malaysian Tourism Ministry reveals recovery plans for pandemic-hit travel sector; Reuters reports US $500B travel spending dive, slow recovery through 2024; Academy Museum of Motion Pictures exceeds pre-opening fundraising goal by leaning mostly on private investors; The Dublin Zoo also leaned on private investors to raise operating capital; California’s theme parks may not open until summer 2021; Kennywood offers annual pass pandemic protection; Wine Bathing in Japan; Blooloop reports How Monterey Bay Aquarium is engaging AND generating revenue with Animal Crossing on Twitch; Imperial War Museum opens online center; Falcon’s Game Suite is the Karaoke Lounge of Gaming; and the International Association of Mixed Reality Sports is here.Full show notes: www.greentaggedshow.com

This week, presidents of the resorts respond to the new guidelines, annual pass changes could be coming, Buena Vista Street is reopening, we talk to former Jungle Cruise Skipper Vedder, and more! Please support the show if you can by going to https://www.dlweekly.net/support/. If you want some DLWeekly Swag, you can pick some up at https://www.dlweekly.net/store/. Book your travel through ConciEARS and ask about custom dining adventures! Be sure to mention that you heard about ConciEARS from DLWeekly at booking! All Enchanting Ears is offering 10% off for podcast listeners. Head on over to allenchantingears.com and use DLWEEKLY10 at checkout. Also, this month they are re-launching their Ear of the Month Club. Head on over to https://www.patreon.com/AllEnchantingEars to sign up! News: The California Attractions and Parks Association, an organization that represents amusement parks and attractions througout California, streamed reactions from the big theme park operators last week. Ken Potrock, President of the Disneyland Resort, Kurt Stocks, President of Legoland California, Karen Irwin, President and COO of Universal Studios Hollywood, and Raffi Kaprelyan, Regional Vice President for Cedar Fair, which operates Knott’s Berry Farm were on the stream. Good points were made by each of them, such as local residents might be traveling out of state to go to theme parks since the local ones aren’t open, helping with the COVID-19 spread. Overall, the group of theme park leaders were not happy. – https://www.facebook.com/CaAttractionsandParks/ The Orange County Register reported this week that the Southern California theme parks are considering legal action to gain permission to reopen, or, at the very least, change the guidelines for reopening. The parks at least want to be able to open in tier 3 instead of waiting for tier 4. – https://www.ocregister.com/2020/10/21/disneyland-universal-studios-knotts-and-more-considering-legal-action-over-californias-unachievable-reopening-guidelines/ Disneyland sent an email out to annual passholders discussing the reopening guidelines that were announced last week. The email went on to mention that they are not sure what that means for the annual passholder program. They finish saying that they will be in touch soon, when they can share more details. – https://www.micechat.com/273627-disneyland-update-the-nightmare-before-christmas/ Tokyo Disneyland is a huge annual passholder park, much like Disneyland. This week, Tokyo Disneyland has ended their annual passholder program and refunded the balance to passholders. Could this be something that Disneyland will do when it eventually reopens? – https://www.micechat.com/273340-tokyo-disneyland-annual-pass-program-ending-could-it-happen-at-disneyland/ and https://www.micechat.com/273627-disneyland-update-the-nightmare-before-christmas/ Beginning in November, Buena Vista Street will be open for shopping and dining! Disney is considering this as an expansion to Downtown Disney. All of the stores on Buena Vista Street will be open, including Elias & Co., Julius Katz & Sons, Kingswell Camera Shop, and Trolley Treats. The Fiddler, Fifer & Practical Cafe, Carthay Circle Lounge, and Smokejumpers Grill will also be open for dining. – https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2020/10/more-shopping-more-dining-coming-soon-downtown-disney-district-at-disneyland-resort-extends-to-buena-vista-street/ With the reopening of Buena Vista Street, Cast Members have been called back to work, ending their furlough. However, others got messages from Disney that the furloughs have become layoffs. Over 200 cast members will be retuning to work on Buena Vista Street starting COVID training on November 1st. – https://www.micechat.com/273627-disneyland-update-the-nightmare-before-christmas/ Another Downtown Disney shopping event is happening from October 26th-29th. Reservations are required, but have gone quickly. Products that will be available include the 65th anniversary Walt and Mickey vinyl, the 65th anniversary Mr. Toad vinyl, both priced at $29.99, plus tax. – https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2020/10/23/make-your-reservations-now-for-this-exclusive-disneyland-shopping-event/ We talked about the 40th anniversary of the Make-A-Wish foundation last week, and just after that episode posted, Disney released the “Wishes Come True Blue Color Collection.” 25% of the purchase price for each item will go to the Make-A-Wish foundation, up to $500,000. This is the first color collection that helps benefit a nonprofit. 10,000 of the cloth masks are also being donated to the nonprofit. – https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2020/10/celebrate-40-years-of-disney-and-make-a-wish-with-debut-of-all-new-global-products-including-the-wishes-come-true-blue-color-collection/ Ralph Brennan’s Jazz Kitchen has added three new sauces to their lineup for beignets. The new sauces include a BOO-Berry sauce, a caramel apple sauce, and a praline-maple anglaise. The sauces are $1.49 each and are available at the Jazz Kitchen Express. – https://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2020/10/21/three-new-beignet-sauces-just-rolled-into-ralph-brennans-jazz-kitchen-in-downtown-disney/ Disney has partnered with Historically Black Colleges and Universities to inspire students to dream big. Disney is hoping to create career paths for HBCU students, in order to build a long-term pipeline of black talent. Student internships, mentorship opportunities and inclusive hiring practices are all aspects of this program. – https://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2020/10/disney-working-with-historically-black-colleges-and-universities-to-inspire-the-next-gen-to-dream-big/ Blooloop, an online resource for professionals working in the visitor attractions sector, have recognized five leaders from Disney on their 50 Theme Park Influencer list for 2020. The list celebrates the most creative and inspirational people in the theme park industry. – https://twitter.com/DisneyParksNews/status/1319337221149872128 This week a trailer was released for Raya and the Last Dragon. The movie is currently scheduled to premiere in theaters in March of 2021. The movie is inspired by Southeast Asia and will combine Disney classics with Hong Kong action films. – https://dlnewstoday.com/2020/10/video-disney-releases-first-official-trailer-for-raya-and-the-last-dragon/ Discussion Topic: Jungle Cruise Skipper Vedder Cast Member Pantry – https://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories/furloughed-disney-cast-member-launches-the-cast-member-pantry-to-help-others-feed-their-families/

Join us for episode 246 of the Theme Park Trader podcast!This week we run through the Blooloop list of the top 25 theme park attractions for 2020 and state whether we agree or disagree with the rides that appeared on the list.We will be running our own top lists a bit later on in the year as 2021 gets a little closer!Be sure to check us out over on www.themeparktrader.com.If you like us then please check out our podcasting friends Disney Parks and Beyond

We divided this week’s news into three piles: the Florida and New York governors’ responses to how themed attractions can move forward during the pandemic, the evolution of IP experiences, and the trend to virtual. Full show notes here: https://greentaggedshow.com/theme-park-industry-news-green-tagged-sep6/

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter. Show references:blooloop.comblooloop.com/blooloop-50-theme-park-nomination-2020/blooloop.online-event.co/registration/blooloop-3  Transcriptions:Kelly Molson:Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode, I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. In today's episode, I speak with Charlie Read, Managing Director of Blooloop, the world's leading online resource for professionals working in the visitor attraction sector. We discuss what attractions can learn from the COVID-19 situation and the positives that are to come from it. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.Kelly Molson:Charlie, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. It's really lovely to have you.Charlie Read:You too, thanks for inviting me along.Kelly Molson:Very welcome. I always start off these interviews by asking you a few icebreaker questions just to get to know the real you. And we haven't spoken before, so this will be a quite nice insight into what the real Charlie is like. I hope you're prepared. Okay. Can you tell me, what's at the top of your bucket list?Charlie Read:Oh, the top of my bucket list. I think my main passion in life is probably wildlife. I've never been on a safari to East Africa. That's something I'd like to do.Kelly Molson:Ah, that would be pretty incredible, wouldn't it?Charlie Read:I want to see the wildebeests and the crocodiles and the lions and so on.Kelly Molson:Lovely, good bucket list. Can you tell me, what's the worst job you've ever had?Charlie Read:Oh my. I had a job once where I had to ring up people from a very, very long list and ask if they wanted to speak to someone to sell pensions to them. I wasn't the guy selling the pensions, I was the guy trying to make appointments. The percentage of people who told me to get lost was very high, in more flowery language than that. Yeah, I found that quite dispiriting, but I didn't do it for very long.Kelly Molson:It's quite soul-destroying, isn't it? You have to be really thick-skinned for all of the negative nerves that you're going to get from it.Charlie Read:Yeah, exactly. As a part of that, part of the thing I've learned is I'm always really nice to people who cold-call me, because I've done that job and it's not a lot of fun and they're just doing their job.Kelly Molson:Yeah, that's true. Well, that's nice. That's a good learning thing to take away from that. Okay. Cats or dogs? It's an important question.Charlie Read:Probably dogs. We've got two of each, but I'm definitely a dog person.Kelly Molson:Right, and last question. Can you tell me something that is true to you? So you believe that you completely agree on, but nobody else agrees with you on, your unpopular opinion?Charlie Read:I've got to be honest. I'll say, I've never been a fan of Star Wars.Kelly Molson:Wow.Charlie Read:I don't get it, really. I like Empire Strikes Back, I think that's a good film. But I've never really bought into Star Wars.Kelly Molson:That's quite a big one. That's quite controversial as well, I think.Charlie Read:Yeah.Kelly Molson:My partner is exactly the same. He's never ever watched a single Star Wars film, never. I don't even know how he's got through life having avoided them.Charlie Read:Yeah. There's a film... I'm pretty obsessed with trees, which we might talk about later. But there's one of those films that takes place in the Redwood Forest in California, which I love.Kelly Molson:That's the one with the Ewoks?Charlie Read:Yeah. But I never got Star Wars.Kelly Molson:All right. I feel like you're going to get some comeback to that, Charlie, when this airs. Thank you for answering those questions. I mean, for people that don't know, Charlie is the Managing Director of Blooloop, which is the world's leading online resource for professionals working in the visitor attraction sector.Kelly Molson:I have to just start by saying that throughout the last three or four months, Blooloop has been absolutely invaluable to anybody working in the profession and in this sector. It has been an absolute fountain of knowledge about what's happening in the UK, what's happening globally. It has been the one place that I have turned to on a daily basis actually, to see what is going on and how people are coping.Kelly Molson:Firstly, thank you for all of the hard work that's gone into that. I'd really love to hear a little bit about what your background is, and how you ended up as Managing Director of Blooloop.Charlie Read:Yeah, sure. I am going way back. My degree was from a poly. They don't exist anymore, I think they're all universities. I did Law, so I was a Lawyer for a while. Then I sort of drifted into publishing. By the time we came down to Devon, where I live now... we live in the middle of nowhere, I needed a job I could do from home. I had always been really, really keen on zoos, aquariums attractions. I knew the publishing world which I had worked in was gradually moving online. That's when I came up with the idea.Charlie Read:I very purposely decided to make it about attractions as a whole rather than just museums or just theme parks. Because right then, I recognized this is a dreadful awful management were the commonalities between all these kinds of attractions. I saw that there were a few sites that were just about specific sectors, and companies that marketed themselves as just being about working in a specific vertical market.Charlie Read:To be frank, most design companies, for example, they don't really care if the call comes in from an aquarium or a zoo or a museum. And also, museums specifically more and more are becoming much more interactive, much more immersive. They're understanding even if they're not for profit, commercial organizations need to drive people through the gates. They need to get people to stay there, they need to help them have memorable experiences. All visitor attractions are about creating experiences, so I thought it would work to have a site that covered all kinds of experiences and attractions.Kelly Molson:Yeah, I completely agree. You see museums in a slightly different segment quite a lot of the time. I've never really understood that because they do have the same challenges as a theme park for example, in terms of getting those customers through the door and that experience part of the process. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that. How has it developed over the years? Was it just yourself when you started it, and then how has it grown?Charlie Read:Yeah, it was just me. I started on my own. My wife who runs the business with me, Rachel, she was an accountant for a long time. She was earning very well. It took me a good few years until we got our revenue up enough that she could leave that job and work with Blooloop. Since then, it's progressed and grown very well every year since then. Yeah, but we've just gradually built up what we offer and developed a website, made it better. Yeah, just really, really worked hard to provide a good service to our readers and to our clients.Kelly Molson:How has lockdown been for you? Because I guess you're quite used to working from home, so that obviously hasn't been a huge change. But how has it been for you, personally? And also as an organization, what kinds of things have you been doing to support your audience through all of this?Charlie Read:Yeah. I think first, personally in terms of my experience, I do work from home. The day-to-day life is much the same. We live in quite a rural area, so it's been okay to go outside and walk around and running or whatever. That's all fine. And so, the main change to me personally is not traveling. I normally go to London probably once a week. I tend to fly somewhere once a month, I would say. Not traveling anywhere has been a change, but it's not been about change. I've quite enjoyed being at home, and focusing on the garden and walking and dogs and stuff like that.Charlie Read:As a business, we decided early on that we wanted to maintain and continue to give as good a service as we could. We thought it was important to provide as much useful coverage as we could about coronavirus and its impact. Fortunately, there's been some great resources online. Including you, Kelly, the work you've done putting together sources. For example as well, Alliance of American Museums. There's a lot of great resources out there, and we thought that we were one of them in terms of just putting information out there and reporting what's happening. We decided to do that.Charlie Read:Yeah, and business has been fine, to be honest. It's been impacted a little bit, but our traffic has continued to grow which has been great. And so I think we're at a good position to continue through to the new normal, whatever that will be.Kelly Molson:Yeah. Who knows? There's a long way to go, isn't there? We'll ask you about that in a little while. What kind of things have you been doing to support your audience? I mean, you have been so constant, like a constant source of resource and a constant source of knowledge throughout it. You obviously have a huge membership database of attractions. How have you been able to help them whilst this has been going on?Charlie Read:A lot of what we do is not really... I guess you wouldn't see. We speak to a lot of people on the phone on calls, and where they seek advice. We put people in touch with other people. We do a lot of that kind of stuff. But it's more really in terms of the business, creating content, chasing up people for news, checking news, this kind of stuff. Just making sure that what we report is correct, which is always important. Yeah, and just making sure we give a good service to our readers.Charlie Read:I'm very aware that there's an awful lot of people out there who are either furloughed or have lost their jobs. There's whole attractions that are closing. I think from our point of view, at least if we can carry on giving as good a service as we've been doing, then that's important to us.Kelly Molson:Yeah. That's good. I guess you want people to continue to use you, so you've been super supportive throughout all of this. I think any membership organization that I've spoken to, has been doing the same. They care about their members, they care about the people that as their audience and they've wanted to do as much as they possibly can to help them throughout all of this. I mean, that's certainly the approach that we've been taking with our clients as well.Kelly Molson:From a different perspective, we've seen people that we work with and talk to on a daily basis, just not there anymore. They've been furloughed. There's nothing that they can do to help the organization that is closed. It's been really tough. Lots of positives this week, though. As we speak, it's coming up to mid-July. Attractions are open if they are able to open safely, which is wonderful to see. We are seeing a number of our clients opening next week, which is great. We do lots of work to support them.Kelly Molson:I mean, how is the general mood in the industry at the moment? You're probably be best placed to answer that question, because you speak to so many different people.Charlie Read:It's obviously a bizarre and unique time. I think that's the first thing to say. And also, people don't really know. It's the uncertainty, I think is the worst thing. Obviously, a lot of attractions are facing pretty catastrophic times immediately right now. There's the misery of people losing their jobs, people being furloughed who won't get taken back on, there's all that kind of stuff.Charlie Read:I think there's a kind of cautious optimism from a lot of people I speak to about... We're a resilient industry as a whole. We'll adapt. Theme parks, attractions, museums, they'll just have to change the way they operate. They'll have to invest in new technologies. I think there's a kind of cautious optimism. It is a resilient industry. People do want to go out and do things. People are bursting at the seams to go out and visit attractions. It may not be right now. It may take a few months until coronavirus sort of drifts away a little bit more.Charlie Read:But as I say, I'm generally quite an optimistic person. I think we're also seeing a lot of companies pivoting in terms of what they do. People are adapting their businesses. There are some kinds of businesses that will do well out of this. Perhaps tech companies, app companies, for example. Companies are doing things, really obvious things, like making masks or sanitizing equipment and that kind of stuff. I think it's a time of innovation and change. I think although we can acknowledge it's dreadful in many, many ways, I think the industry will survive as a whole but just come out differently.Kelly Molson:It's good that you mentioned that. Because one of the questions that I wanted to ask you is if there's anything that attractions can learn from the COVID-19 situation, if there's anything positive that can come out of this situation.Charlie Read:One thing it's going to do is accelerate... I think it's going to accelerate change in terms of a move to digital, for example. That is happening. It was happening, and it's going to happen much more quickly than it was. Things like face recognition for example, and touchless technology and this kind of stuff was happening, but that will be accelerated. That's one thing.Charlie Read:I think a lot of attractions are going to perhaps rethink how they operate. In the States for example, right now, there's a boom in agritourism. People are visiting farms near to where they live, because they are becoming places that you can go for an afternoon. You can go... I don't know, working in the fields, for example. I think organizations like let's say The National Trust, organizations, theme parks with lots of lands perhaps can start leveraging their outdoor spaces more than they are now. I think there are ways that we can innovate in terms of what we do with visitors when they get through the doors, and I think that kind of change will happen as well.Kelly Molson:Yeah, that's interesting. We were actually speaking to Alistair Barber from the National Parks, and that's one of the things that I want to speak to him about. Obviously, at the moment, outdoor attractions are seemed and deemed to be a lot safer than indoor attractions.Kelly Molson:There has been a huge increase in demand. I mean, we've seen ticket sales for Chester Zoo, Whipsnade Wildlife Park. The ticket sales have gone through the roof. And obviously, they're at capped to capacity at the moment, but the demand is absolutely there. And it will be really interesting to see how that translates into the demand for some of the indoor attractions as well. If there are things, if they have outdoor space, will they start to use them more? Will they start to see that as an advantage?Kelly Molson:You talked a little bit about overseas there. I wanted to see if there's anything that you think that the UK attractions can learn from overseas attractions. Is there anything that you've seen that they are doing differently that we can implement here?Charlie Read:Well, I think that the most obvious thing is to look at in terms of operations, is to look at what attractions are doing in places where they've essentially conquered to a large degree, Coronavirus. If you look at China, Singapore, these kinds of places when they're operating, but where attractions have been open for weeks, how are they doing it? Look at the day-to-day operations, like Shanghai Disney, for example. Look at how they treat visitors, look at how the streamlined process is, this kind of stuff. That's what we can learn from in an obvious way.Charlie Read:Also, there's been a big move from attractions to becoming I think, more engaging on social media. Reaching out to audiences even if the audiences aren't there. That kind of reaching out will continue even when the visitors are coming back. That will again, will have accelerated that kind of move. There are tons of initiatives online in terms of gaming and game education and engagement with audiences that are really inspiring. I know the Animal Crossing worked with the Field Museum. Even something really obvious like the penguins from the Shedd Aquarium wondering around the Field Museum.Kelly Molson:Oh.Charlie Read:It's a good example of two institutions collaborating and doing something really engaging and thinking outside of the box.Kelly Molson:That was lovely, wasn't it? I think that for me at the beginning of lockdown, there was a real surgence of some really creative and innovative content being pushed out by a lot of organizations. It was just lovely. It's like you say, it's about being part of the conversation even if you can't be open to your guests. It's still sharing that experience with what your attraction is like. I mean, I don't know if you saw the National Cowboy Museum.Charlie Read:Oh, yeah.Kelly Molson:Oh my gosh, Tim. It was just lovely.Charlie Read:What a star.Kelly Molson:What an absolute star. Cowboy Tim, for any of you that haven't seen this, please go and check it out. Go and look at the National Cowboy Museum, because their Twitter content was just so fabulous at the start of lockdown. Cowboy Tim is their security guard, isn't he? He's the security manager.Charlie Read:Yeah.Kelly Molson:He was inside the museum, and he was just talking to you around some of the things that were there and showing you what he was doing on a daily basis. It was just heartwarming, wasn't it? It's not his role. He's no social media manager. But it was so authentic, and I'm sure it's gained them a huge amount of extra followers.Charlie Read:Oh, yeah. It was fantastic for exactly the reason you say. It was real. It wasn't someone who had been schooled in social media, very obviously. But he was just genuine. He was articulate and genuine, and he was just funny. It was everything that social media should be, really.Kelly Molson:Yeah. Yeah, it's really lovely to see. I do hope that that's done wonders for them. It's funny. I mean, I don't know when I'll get over there, but that's definitely a place that I'm going to go and check out as soon as I can.Charlie Read:Oh yeah, and see Tim.Kelly Molson:Absolutely. Tell us a little bit about what's next for Blooloop now, because we know that you run a conference every year that is I'm guessing, going to change quite a lot this year. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've got planned?Charlie Read:Yeah, sure. We've been running Blooloop live in London for the last four or five years. We started thinking actually probably around a year ago about moving online, but long before COVID. COVID has been dreadful for a billion reasons, and the most trivial of them all is that it made me feel quite opportunistic when we announced we were doing a virtual conference when COVID started because we had been planning it for many, many months.Charlie Read:So yeah, we are doing our conference in October. It's called the V-Expo, Virtual Expo. It's essentially a version of our London conference, but bumped up. It's relying on great content. We've got fantastic speakers from around the world. We've got speakers from across a whole variety of attractions, from major theme parks to top museums to new live experiences. We've got speakers announcing expansions to major institutions. We've got speakers launching new live experiences, revealing new plans for resorts. We've got a ton of people announcing new things at the conference. We've also got an exhibition also, vendor companies can have booths and they can showcase their products and services, they can interact with people who visit.Charlie Read:We see it as an opportunity of basically expanding our London conference and making it available to a global audience. And also, it's online. We can get speakers from California or from India without them having to fly over here. It's just much easier for attendees and for the speakers. We've also made it... it's free to register.Charlie Read:We were absolutely aware that this year of all years, there's tons and tons of people who either have been furloughed or lost their jobs or are uncertain about their future. We've made it free to attend, I think that's an important point. We're also working closely with our friends at Merlin. They're supporting us in terms of promotion and in terms of providing the backdrops for the exhibition as well.Charlie Read:Yeah, that'll take place in October. So we're doing that. A few things will happen during that we're working on now. We're just about to launch in the next few days, our Blooloop 50, which is the Theme Park Influencers of the Year. And we're also launching a Blooloop 50 Museum Influencers as well. The results of both of those will be announced during the virtual expo as well. We're also going to do a virtual run during the expo. I know the UK will be doing at least five miles.Kelly Molson:Wow, okay. I feel like-Charlie Read:I'll take that as when, and we'll sign you up.Kelly Molson:The gauntlet has just been thrown down there, hasn't it?Charlie Read:Exactly, yeah. We're doing that. Yeah, I think there's a whole lot of things we'll do to make it really interesting and really engaging. It really won't be just a series of Zoom calls. It will be very, very different to that. I'm looking forward to doing it.Kelly Molson:That sounds so positive. I think it's lovely that you've been able to make that free for people. I think what an incredible gesture at a time where things are still going to be very difficult. We have to be cautiously excited that attractions can open and are open now, but this is the start of quite a long phase of challenge for people. To be able offer that for free is wonderful. And I think it's such a positive that you can take something that was so London-centric and now it's a global conference, and anyone from all over the world can come and access it so easily. We'll be there, you know that for sure.Charlie Read:Yeah, great stuff.Kelly Molson:I love to end the podcast interviews by asking you about a book that you'd recommend that's kind of helped shape your career or stood out to you in any way throughout it. Do you have one that you could suggest for us?Charlie Read:Yeah. It's an interesting question, because I don't read business and leadership books very much. I tend to read fiction. I've never been a fan of business books. But I'd say, first of all, two books that really influenced me were... when I was a kid, I read My Family and Other Animals, which got me interested in wildlife and I have been ever since. I've got tanks of praying mantids downstairs. I've been keeping praying mantids since I was about seven.Kelly Molson:Wow.Charlie Read:I've got mantids downstairs. I'm completely obsessed with trees, I grow trees. That book really shaped a lot of my outlook for my whole life, really. I also read Out of Africa when I was in my teens, which again, is about East Africa. Perhaps it's about an East Africa that once was and doesn't exist. It's a very beautiful book. That's a great book.Charlie Read:In terms of business, I prefer a story. The Enron story is fantastic. There's a wonderful book called The Smartest Guys in the Room, about the guys behind Enron and how that story unfolded. That's a remarkable book. I think in terms of writing, one author I love is the American crime writer, Elmore Leonard. He has a fantastic essay he did. I think it's 10 Rules of Writing. Anyone who's writing anything, it's worth reading. It's absolutely brilliant. I think the first one is, never start with the weather, which I think is a great-Kelly Molson:Yes, that's a good point.Charlie Read:Exactly. It's tons of just really great tips from a brilliant, brilliant writer. One of them again is, never used a euphemism for set. So you would never write Kelly observed or Kelly observed astutely, just Kelly said. Because it just sounds better, it's quicker. I think bad writing is when you do that.Kelly Molson:I love that you have recommended books that nobody else has spoken about. I really love that you've recommended books that are linked to your personal development, aside from your career development as well.Kelly Molson:I have to say though, that you've completely blown my marketing budget yet again. I ask everyone to recommend a book. Most people have recommended at least two books. We give them away as prizes. So if you're listening to this and you'd like to get a copy of all of Charlie's books that he's recommended, then if you head over to our Twitter account, Skip the Queue and retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Charlie's books." Then you could be in with a chance of winning. I need to ask you about your praying mantis, did you say that you've got downstairs?Charlie Read:Yeah.Kelly Molson:Gosh.Charlie Read:They're incredible insects. There's I think 2,500 species or more around the world. They're all made to the same design, but each species is different. There's mantids camouflaged as dry grass, mantids camouflaged as sticks. The ones I've got are camouflaged as dead leaves. There's even mantids camouflaged as orchids, that live on orchid leaves. I think they're extraordinary animals, and they're really easy to keep.Kelly Molson:This is not tied to attractions at all. But I need to know this, Charlie.Charlie Read:Yeah.Kelly Molson:How did you first decide this is the pet for me, this is the animal for me?Charlie Read:Well, when I was really young, I used to get a magazine called Look and Learn in the UK, which your elder listeners will know about. It had an article about mantids. I'll always remember, it had a paragraph that said they're really easy to keep, you can simply feed them on pieces of dried vegetables. So my mum said, "Fine. That's fine. We'll get one of those." So we got one. And then as soon as we got one, we realized that that paragraph had been completely untrue and you have to feed them on live flies.Kelly Molson:Oh, God. I bet your mum was delighted.Charlie Read:Well exactly, yeah. Ever since then, I've just found them fascinating. Wherever you go in the world, if you're in a reasonably warm country, there are different species of mantids. If I'm in Singapore and I'm visiting a trade show, I'll always go off to the national parks and I'll always go off taking photographs and looking for insects.Kelly Molson:Oh, I love this. I'm not going to ask you to choose your favorite attraction, because that would be, I'm sure, too difficult. But does that mean that you are much more drawn to attractions that are like parks, botanical gardens, wildlife parks, that kind of thing?Charlie Read:I love theme parks of course, and I go to theme parks whenever I can. But we've got people who work here who are obsessed with theme parks all the time. But I wouldn't say I'm like that. But I am pretty much obsessed with botanical gardens, aquariums, and zoos. Yeah. I think the attraction I've been most to in my life is Kew Gardens.Kelly Molson:Yeah. I mean, it's just a beautiful place as well. I hope that they are going to do their Christmas show this year because the Christmas lights is just magical, isn't it?Charlie Read:Oh, the Christmas lights are fantastic.Kelly Molson:Yeah.Charlie Read:I'm supposed to be running a marathon there in September as well.Kelly Molson:You're a marathon runner who's just challenged me to a five-mile. I feel like this could end quite badly for me.Charlie Read:Oh, yeah. Make it 5K, 5K.Kelly Molson:All right. Thanks, Charles. Charlie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. It's been absolutely delightful to talk to you. We will put all of the information in the show notes, especially all the information about the Blooloop Expo, which is coming up. I think it's wonderful that you're doing that just for registration. Thanks so much for everything that you've been doing for the sector throughout this, it's really appreciated.Charlie Read:It's a pleasure, Kelly. Thanks for inviting me along.Kelly Molson:Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five-star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you byRubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is  Kelly Molson, MD of Rubber Cheese.Download our free ebook The Ultimate Guide to Doubling Your Visitor NumbersIf you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcastIf you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this episode.Competition ends October 31st 2020. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.Show references:www.9degreeswest.londonwww.linkedin.com/in/thompbenCOVID-19 and the enduring strength of the attractions industryThe above article was written in collaboration by Ben Thompson, Carolien Nederlof, Klaus Hoven, Luca Liboa and Raymond Oude Groen.Since recording the podcast, Ben has joined  Storyland Studios as their Chief Strategy Officer   Transcription:Kelly Molson:Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. Each episode I speak with industry experts from the attractions world. These chats are fun, informative, and hopefully always interesting. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue. In today's episode, I speak with Ben Thompson. Ben is chief storytelling officer at 9 Degrees West, a strategic consultancy specialising in brand and marketing strategy for theme parks, visitor attractions, and brand homes. An IAAPA speaker, Ben has previously worked at Mars, the Walt Disney Company and Merlin Entertainments. We discuss the future of the experience economy and how organisations may need to adapt in a post-COVID world. Kelly Molson:Ben, welcome to the podcast. It's really great to have you on here. Ben Thompson:Thank you very much, Kelly. It's great to be here. Great to be talking to you and the dog today. Kelly Molson:Yes. So look, we are recording these in semi-lockdown or easing out of lockdown. So we're kind of at home, my dog is behind me. Ben Thompson:And I've left my dog Barney at home. So I'm actually in a nice quiet office. So it's all good on my side. Kelly Molson:I'm glad that you read the prep notes accordingly, Ben, well done. Well done for following instructions. So we're going to start off a little bit with a bit of a quick fire round, just to get to know you in a little bit of detail. We've spoken a couple of times previously, but we don't know each other super well. So I've got some quick fire questions for you. So, think I know the answer to this one already. Cats or dogs? Ben Thompson:Definitely dogs. Cats are rubbish. It's all about dogs. Kelly Molson:And what's top of your bucket list? Ben Thompson:Oh, my word. I think it is taking a long trip to Australia. We've got quite a lot of relatives over there. I've never been, it's one of the few continents I didn't get to go to when I was traveling the world with Merlin Entertainments. So yeah, definitely probably going to Ayers Rock, doing some of the islands getting down to Tasmania and so on. I think that's probably, yeah, I need to do that. Kelly Molson:Great choice, Ben. Do you know what actually, we got engaged at Ayers Rock. Ben Thompson:Oh, really? Oh, fantastic. Kelly Molson:Yeah, it's a really special place for us. Really, really special. Ben Thompson:Or Uluru as I probably should be should be calling it, yeah. But yeah, no, I'd love to get down to Aussie and meet up with my... My mother's brother went out there and he had five children. They all got married. I think there's about 50 Thompsons that are out there now. So yeah, looking forward to catching up with them one day. Kelly Molson:Oh, good. Well yeah, you've got a lot of people to visit out there. Sounds fab. Okay. Tell me one thing that you're not very good at. Ben Thompson:Oh, my word. I mean, how long have you got? I'm really, really impatient. I'm an ENTJ in Myers Briggs terminology, so extroverted blue-sky thinking. So I'm brilliant on the future and possibility and what could it look like? I get very bored very quickly with what I consider to be the mundane administrative tasks. And I'm terrible at hiding my feelings. So if I'm bored about something, it's written all over my face. You definitely can't air this now, this is far too personal. Kelly Molson:I'm really worried that I'm going to start looking at your face soon. And sense that boredom coming across as well, Ben, you're giving too much away. Ben Thompson:Good question. Kelly Molson:One last question. Tell me something that you believe to be true that nobody else agrees with you on. So what is your unpopular opinion? Ben Thompson:Oh, my word. Listen, these questions are really good and terrible. Okay. So I believe that cricket is the very, very best sport in the world, bar none. And I have a really solid argument as for why that is the case and hardly anybody apart from a very tiny percentage of people agree with me. Kelly Molson:Do you want to share that argument just in case we've got any listeners that share this opinion? Ben Thompson:In a nutshell, it's the ultimate combination of the individual and the team game and conditions and everything else, skills and experience sort of wrapped into one and it has different formats. You can have a really short game, like only three hours or quite a nice leisurely version of five days where you can have a draw at the end. Kelly Molson:Okay. I mean, I will agree to disagree on that one, Ben. Ben Thompson:Well, there we go. Kelly Molson:But maybe some of our listeners... Well, I mean, tell us, let us... Yeah. Tweet us and let us know if you agree with Ben, I'd love to hear. Thank you for sharing. I always like to do that. I think it's quite nice to get a little bit of an insight into people's mind. And also what I really enjoyed is that the thing that you said that you're not very good at actually showcased the things that you are very good at, which is talking about the bigger picture and the future and what things look like. And that's really one of the reasons that I have asked you to come on the podcast because you've got an incredible background in attractions and the experience economy, and it's challenging for many in that sector at the moment. And I'm really keen to get your opinion on how it's been and what you see the future to be. But could you just kind of give us what a typical project is for you, Ben? Ben Thompson:Yeah. I mean, obviously the immediate answer is there's no such thing as a typical project because every client is different and that is true. The kind of golden threads that I get involved, it's all about storytelling. I call myself a chief storytelling officer and that is what I do. I've always loved books and narrative and kind of rich tapestries. I love Lord of the Rings as a kid, I loved all of the kind of The Hobbit, all that type of stuff. And I read voraciously and as I got kind of older, I read a lot of psychology books, really fascinated by how the brain works. And Danny Kahneman is my sort of absolute number one fan in the... He wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow, and Kahneman worked with a guy called Amos Tversky and Kahneman ended up being a Nobel Prize winner and basically invented kind of behavioral economics. Ben Thompson:And I find all that stuff fascinating at the point where kind of story and narrative meets in a meaning, how we interpret the world around us. I think that story forms views, it forms culture, but it can also transform. So Joe Pine and Jim Gilmore talk about that they're at this stage of the transformative economy where the product is the change I see in me as a customer or a guest when I engage with your brand. And I think story has a huge role to play in creating those kind of transformative experiences. So that's sort of a big thread that runs through it. But back to my sort of personality and loving the new, I'm often working on new projects. So that could be like Tony's, which we released our beautiful video, which we produced with Storyline Studios. Kelly Molson:So this is Tony's Chocolonelies. Ben Thompson:Yeah, Tony's Chocolonely. Yeah, exactly. So that is an amazing brand that has got a fantastic story, wants to transform the industry in which it's working and wants to create a visitor experience to immerse people in that brand and to create advocates for their mission, which is to end slavery in the chocolate industry. And our role was to take that from very basic, "Okay, we want to do this and it's going to be kind of this size and it's going to be this location. Oh, and by the way, it's going to have a roller coaster." To, "Okay, how do we actually put an immersive narrative around that?" And what we've done successfully is this, it's either a great story when you stand back and you sort of, you think about it, it's so simple. Our approach to that was a three acts, heart, head, and hands. So we'd engage you with all of the joy and the fun of what chocolate is all about. Chocolate is ultimately about happiness and sharing. Ben Thompson:So we do all of that great color, great richness, texture, and so on, but then we do a twist and we go into the head, which is about saying, "What's the bitter side of the sweetness of chocolate?" It's the reality of people working on cocoa farms in West Africa, Ghana, Ivory Coast, where it's a really kind of terrible situation. Then we educate. So how can it be done differently? That's the rest of the head piece. And then we move into hands, which is all about impact. That particular brand is all about engaging people to make a difference with their decisions, with their activism, all that kind of stuff that we do. And that's where we segued into the roller coaster. So when you get on the coaster, which we're going to call something like the impact express or whatever, you're actually going to be shrunken down to the size of a bar and fired out into the world to have an impact. Kelly Molson:Wow! Ben Thompson:Not literally fired out, health and safety will be taken into consideration here. Ben Thompson:So that has been an awesome project. I have an amazing client in Brazil who are largest park operator out there, they run the Christ the Redeemer statue in Rio, they run the Equis Sioux falls down in the South of the country, which is the number one waterfall in the world, they have a big aquarium and so on. And there it's all been about kind of, how do you go from being an organization that's grown through acquisition, has around 6 million guests a year, but in kind of silo style businesses. And how do you create the sort of structure that sits above that? A little bit like Merlin, where you can get great synergies, get great best practices, and a lot of that's in your world of digital and get right structures and so on. So they can get the good data, make the good decisions and so on. Ben Thompson:And we've got other projects that we can't talk about yet. Kelly Molson:Of course, there's always secret projects. Ben Thompson:Which is so frustrating. We've got two amazing, amazing clients that we're working on. One in Europe and one, a global company, but based on the East Coast where the work we're doing is just going to be incredible, but you're going to have to watch this space. Kelly Molson:All right. Well, we definitely will watch this space. And that brings me to my next question, really, because I'd like to know if you're having to advise your clients differently at this point, because we are still in the middle of a pandemic. As we sit here, it's the 1st of July, attractions in the UK can start to open safely from this weekend, if they are able to. And we're seeing a really big demand, actually. We've seen a huge demand for ticket sales for London Zoo, Whipsnade Zoo, for example. And we know that Shanghai Disney Resort sold out its capacity in three minutes. So we know that there's demand there. We know people want to go back. And what are those conversations like at the moment with your clients that are looking to open their experiences in a year from now, two years from now? Are you having to talk to them very differently about things? Ben Thompson:It's a great question. I think the first thing to say is, I'm not at all surprised that there's a massive pent up demand. And I think I've been fairly consistent with that, with my clients and stuff that I've written about. Disney have the most amazing metaphor for this, to explain why there would be this pent up demand and they call it the " Closing Window ". And as a parent of children, I can really relate to this. So the idea of the Closing Window is, if you have children, let's say you have two or three kids. You don't really want to go to the big park experience until they're sort of five or six, because they don't really get it. The rides maybe aren't quite ready for them, unless you go to Legoland of course. And by the time they get to be 15 or so, and I've got a 16 year old, so I can relate to this, parents are deeply uncool and they want to go off and do their own things. Ben Thompson:So you've kind of got maybe eight or nine summers to go and make the memories that last a lifetime. And actually, that's not that many summers, so if you take one away, you're like, "Oh wow. I just lost a really big opportunity to go and do something amazing with my family." And if you think about the experience for parents with their children in parks, basically, it's the best you ever feel in the whole year as a mum or a dad. I think particularly as a dad, by the way, because you've put so much energy into it, it can be really expensive and it's a day that you'd never have to say no to your kids, typically. At least the way I try and do it. So you feel great, right? And those memories kind of reinforce your sense of yourself and the story that you tell yourself. Ben Thompson:So that's the power of the industry that we work in, and if you close the doors on people and say, "You can't go," and then they open up again, no surprise, there's going to be a kind of a rush to the doors. I think indoor is going to be different from outdoor. I think outdoor's obviously going to have the benefit of it's going to feel safer for the more risk-averse folks out there, like my wife. But the thing about indoor is still a massive role for it. It all depends about whether you've refreshed the experience. A big part of our industry is about suspense, surprising people, "Oh, I didn't know they were going to do that. Oh, that's different from last time," or, "I want to go further into that experience than I could the time before." I think that's why escape rooms are such a great trend, because you want to do it quicker. Maybe they change a few things and it's a different experience each time. So I think for anybody who is still waiting to get open, please don't try and open with the same experience that you did last time, because I think people are going to be looking for something new. Kelly Molson:That's really good advice. I guess there are some experiences that can't open at all at the moment, and that's a huge challenge. So I read last week about the Poster museum who is allowed, they are allowed to open and the restrictions have been lifted. However, they can't make it safe enough for people to come in because they've got restricted space and actually restricted space on the postal ride that they have, the actual experience. And so it is still really, really difficult for the industry. And I guess how can you advise... I guess you can't advise them if they physically can't look at the safety implications and they can't make it safe for people to come, that's a very different story. But so your advice to attractions is to refresh what they're doing. Don't just open as they have previously. Ben Thompson:I think that's right. One of the most important things I feel is about empathy. So I engaged a few of my colleagues in IAAPA organization, in February I think, with an idea around how we might recognize our healthcare and key workers once we opened. We called the idea Healthcare Heroes, and actually a number of people have taken it on. People in China have done it, a load of the folks in Europe have done it as well. And the idea there was just simple way of... The first people who come through the doors of our attractions ought to be the people who put their lives on the line to help us during COVID. So doctors, nurses, people working in healthcare. Actually teachers as well, by the way, my wife's a teacher. Teachers get a bad rap most of the time, but they had to go back into their workplaces a long time before anybody else. Ben Thompson:I thought that was a good idea for two reasons. One, is it shows that the people who are running that organization understand and care and empathize with what people are going through. There's a sense we're all in this together. Secondly, I think it allays risk. So if you are more on the kind of cautious, risk-averse side, if you can think, well, actually these guys are going to get healthcare workers are going to come through and they'll help them check out their facilities and run the rule over their sanitation measures and so on. Then you can have a double win. Ben Thompson:So yeah, I think empathy is good, and I think just communicating with people, what you're doing and why. The guys over in Shanghai, when they opened earlier in May, I thought they did an outstanding job of just being right up front. Here are the guidelines, this is what we're following. We're not putting the full number that we can put through from the get go. I think they had the right to go up to sort of 25, 30,000 people a day, I think they put 5,000 in on the first day and then it kind of moved up to 10 and so on. And that shows a really, again, kind of a sensitive mindset. It's not all about shoving as many people through as possible to try and generate some revenue. It's a bit more caring than that. Kelly Molson:Yeah, absolutely. Again, that's one of the things that we've been talking about in the office the last couple of weeks is we talk quite a lot about getting visitor numbers through the door, we've got an ebook, Double Your Visitor Numbers. You can't do that at the moment, so you've got to try and kind of maximize the revenue of the people that can come through, but also caring about their health and safety and making sure that they are safe is the fundamental thing that you need to be hearing about when you get those visitors back through the door. Ben Thompson:Yeah. I mean, I think, again, I wrote another piece on this about guest centricity as opposed to customer centricity. I've always thought that the metaphor of the host at the dinner table is the right one for any kind of hospitality business. When you invite people to come into your home, you're treating them as if they are a member of your family. You do anything for them. You want to understand all about them, their needs, their preferences, whatever it is. I think in the article, I kind of used the example of so many of the CRM platforms where you get asked your name five times, or I have to fill in the same details, yeah. It's the equivalent of after the second course say, "Oh yeah, what's your name again?" And, "Oh, is your husband... Dave is it? Oh, James, oh, sorry." So I just think that mindset of being all about the guests and caring for them and their day will stand us in good stead. Kelly Molson:See, it's really interesting actually. I think I'm going to hook you up with a past guest who's on our season one of the podcast. We spoke to Alex Book from Arcade. So they are a big VR agency and they actually talk about not calling guests, guests, or visitors. They talk about calling them players. And it was a really interesting discussion around how you engage with them and what that kind of message is. I think that the two of you should have a chat about that. That would be... Maybe on here. Maybe on here actually. Ben Thompson:That'll be great. Language is important. One of the things Joe talks about is the idea of staging an experience. They say work is theater. It's not a metaphor. We're not saying, "Think of work like theater." They're saying, "It is theater." You go to work every day to play a role and when you have an organization that is like a theatrical production, everyone playing their parts, staging the experience for the guests, whether that's a pharmaceutical company looking after patients, or a retail organization looking after shoppers or Alton Towers or Disneyland looking after families and so on in the theme park. Kelly Molson:Yeah. So on that note actually, with Disney, we were discussing last week about the Disney magic and how they still create that feeling. I mean, it's super exciting. I've been to Disney about four or five times when I was a kid and my parents love it, and there's not one part of that experience that isn't magic. I can remember my dad parking the car, even getting on the little tram that takes you into it. Every part of it is exciting. How do they keep that up with the measures that they have to have in place now? Ben Thompson:Yeah. The funny thing about Disney, and I was trying to explain to people as you, with all the talk that we've just been talking about, guest centricity, you would think that Disney were the ultimate guest-centric company, but they're not. They're not guest centric, they're cast-centric. I went to the IAAPA Leadership Summit in March of this year just before lockdown happened, actually. And I attended a presentation and met with a lady called Chris Tyler. Chris is the operations VP at Disneyland, Anaheim, California. And she took us through the launch of Galaxy's Edge, and I'd had the kind of privilege of seeing Galaxy's Edge, both in Anaheim and in Florida and I think it's outstanding. Anyway, Chris just talked about the cast. She talked about the long lead-in to that opening and about how they invested in education, in programs to tell the backstory of the characters, the narratives, all the different movies, how they approach costuming, how they allow personalization of costuming, how they chose the staff, the cast who actually ended up taking up those frontline roles. Ben Thompson:And then the launch event that they ran, and actually they did a fashion show where the kind of key Imagineers, people like Scott Trowbridge, Chris Beaty, Margaret Kerrison dressed up in the new costumes for Galaxy's Edge for Batu, the new world, which they've created. Or should I say the existing part of the Star Wars universe which they've brought to life, because that's what it is, it is an existing part. And so, basically the philosophy is about happy cast equals happy guests. That's the mantra of the Disney Institute, which is the external-facing management consultancy part of the organization who train companies all round the world. And if you're listening, guys, I'd love to partner with you one day. Ben Thompson:But that simple principle is the reason why when you go into any Disneyland park, chances are 98 times out of 100, you're meeting somebody who is happy to be there, and they are super motivated. They believe in what Disney are trying to do, whether it's somebody who works in the janitorial department, whether they're doing the laundry, whether they're in frontline guest service, whether it's ride ops, whatever it is, they know they're there to create a magical experience and magical memories. And they're generally some of the happiest staff that you're going to find. And that, in my view, is the reason why Disney will endure, the magic will endure, because they've done a pretty good job of looking after people and they'll continue to do so. Kelly Molson:I love that. Yeah, I love that. Happy team makes for happy visitors, for sure. Ben Thompson:I mean, it makes sense, doesn't it? Kelly Molson:Yeah. Ben Thompson:So much of... Whenever I've done research on launching parks, and there's so much of... The fantastic experience comes down to staff. Probably 25% of the overall piece. It isn't the coast, it isn't the... Well, it is those things, but those guys make up so much a part... And we forget that at our peril. Kelly Molson:Yeah, you're right actually, and I can draw a parallel to one of our clients for exactly the same reason. So we work with Eureka, the National Children's Museum and their team are called enablers. And every single one of them, every time I've been, is happy. They are engaging. They are genuinely really so delighted to be there and to welcome you and to help you. And it is just lovely. And that is part of the whole experience for me, that front of house team are so incredibly caring and dedicated to the people that are coming through the doors. And that is a big part of what that makes that experience brilliant. Ben Thompson:Absolutely. Kelly Molson:Big, big question for you. So what do you think the experience economy is going to look like post-COVID? Are experiences like Tony's, for example, are they going to need to have a different focus? Are they going to need to look at things that are more virtual continuing? We've seen a lot of that during lockdown. Virtual museum tours, virtual tours, virtual experiences, is that going to continue, or do you think things are going to go back to how they were? Ben Thompson:It's a bit like the saying in the Hollywood industry, in the film industry. Nobody knows, right? You get a lot of people who'll say, "Oh yeah, it's going to be like this. The world's going to change." No, the world isn't going to change. It's going to be exactly the same. How do you say whether a film is going to be a success or not? Nobody knows. We do a lot of work benchmarking what we think are really successful brands who've understood what the transformational economy is all about, and we showcase their work. So good example, not in our industry specifically, but they are an experienced provider, Peloton. Peloton they provide the program of how you become a better cyclist. I actually think it's about becoming a better looking cyclist as well, by the way, because it's a very sort of sexy brand. Ben Thompson:The products of Peloton is wellbeing, how I feel about myself. Yes, my fitness, but my sense of belonging, being in something part of in myself, bigger than myself. My sort of competitive juices flowing and all that kind of stuff. People who love the brand, they would not lose their whatever it is, hour in the morning or at the end of the day, or whatever, for anything. It's a sort of super positive drug, effectively, if you kind of think about it like that. Now, interestingly, that's an experience that's in-home. They connect it around the world through these super cool screens and you've got people from all different parts of the world, and that's sort of the point of the online community. Ben Thompson:I'm sure though, that there's a version of that that could go from, in the home, to in a physical space with lots of other people. And a good example there would be eSports. So eSports has grown out of gamers sat in front of a screen like this, maybe one or two together, playing in multiplayer. Now you've got leagues, franchises. When the London resort launch in X number of years time down in Kent, there's talk of an eSports franchise, having their physical home. Like Arsenal or Chelsea Football Club. The equivalent of them having it there and having stadiums full of people, sort of watching the gamers. So the point is it can go both ways. We're talking about physical theme park visitor attraction, brand homes, museums being places where people go to and we're worried about will they kind of come back? Ben Thompson:Well, I think lots of good examples of organizations creating virtual digital experiences and they're obviously revenue-driving opportunities as well. So we're about to do some work with the distillery industry, they are a provider, a curator, if you will, of really, really high-end product that, unless you tell the story... So bottles of whiskey or gin or whatever that are selling for hundreds and hundreds of pounds, you're never going to buy that in Waitrose. But if you wrap a story around it and talk about the provenance and the heritage and the characters who put that together in the years and years and whatever, then I think you're going to stand more chance of being successful. And all that can be done virtually just as well as it can in a... And often more effectively with some of the latest digital technologies. Kelly Molson:Yeah, absolutely. Ben Thompson:I almost certainly haven't answered the question, but I at least hopefully gave some thoughts. Kelly Molson:Oh, I don't think the question can be answered, can it? It's impossible at the moment. It's like you say, we just don't know. At the moment we don't know what's coming in the next couple of weeks, let alone the next couple of years. So I think I really enjoyed your answer though. And distillery is something that we know a little bit about Ben, so I feel like, I feel like there might be something happening there. Ben Thompson:Okay. Let's talk, let's talk. Kelly Molson:Let's talk. Do you know what, we connected quite early on at the beginning of lockdown, and one of the things that I really enjoyed, you wrote an article, a brilliant article, actually on Blooloop. It was called COVID-19 and the enduring strength of the attractions industry. What I have really enjoyed about the content that you've been sharing and the things that you've been talking about over this period, is how unbelievably positive that you have been about the industry. And you've talked a lot about the overriding resilience that attractions have. I kind of wanted to know, that article came out right at the beginning of lockdown. If you could go back, is there anything that you would add to that now, having seen what you've seen over the past few months? Ben Thompson:Well, first of all, I collaborated. It was my idea to write it, but I collaborated with four brilliant Dutch people. And we actually... We love the idea of putting a Zoom collaboration together. Obviously, we did it on Google Docs and whatever. So Raymond and Luca and Caroline, and I've forgotten the other guy's name. Oh, I'm sorry. Kelly Molson:Don't worry. Let me know. We'll put it in the show notes. So there'll be.. Ben Thompson:Yeah, put it in the show notes. Yeah. So they helped me sort of put that together. I don't think I would change anything. If I had a bit more time, I would like to have gone more into the psychological drivers, the deep kind of reasons why... Joe and Jim have this experience framework. So you've got education, entertainment, aesthetic, which is the sort of art appreciation, and then escapism in this sort of four box grid. And then they overlay that with things like edutainment and escatainment. What I think is really interesting is why do we feel the need to be entertained? What happens when we appreciate art? In our mind, in our heart, in our soul, what's actually going on there? Ben Thompson:And often it gets down to transformations. We as human beings, I think, are always looking to better ourselves. We have an idea of ourselves that's bigger, more perfect, better than the way we kind of realize we are, and we're always striving to try and get there. And I think brands that can help that sort of journey, help me understand my ambitions, achieve some of those ambitions, contribute to the world. I sometimes think... I oscillate between thinking we're all fundamentally selfish and we're all fundamentally good. And I think the truth is we're both. Successful businesses in our industry will be those who can really create the environment where we can be our best selves. Now, I've forgotten what the question was, but... Oh yeah, would I change anything about the article. I would love to go into more of that, kind of the sort of psychological approach to it, and what psychology can teach us in the entertainment industry, but the article was way longer than we started out, so. Kelly Molson:There was a lot to talk about. Ben Thompson:Charlie Read at Blooloop would probably have got his editing pen out. Kelly Molson:Well, I'll ask him, he's coming on air in a few weeks. Ben Thompson:Yeah. Kelly Molson:We are coming up to the end of the podcast interview. I thoroughly enjoyed speaking to you, Ben. Ben Thompson:Yeah, me too. Kelly Molson:I think you've got a really great take on what things are going to be like future. I know we can't be so specific at the moment, but I think some of the things you're working on just sound so incredibly exciting, and I'm really pleased to see that there's still that kind of overriding resilience in attractions. They're going to come back bigger and stronger. We like to ask our guests at the end of the podcast, if there's a book that you'd recommend that has helped shape your career in any way. Ben Thompson:Yeah. So there's two books, actually, if I can be cheeky- Kelly Molson:You can. Ben Thompson:If you have marketing in your job title at all, or you have any responsibility to do marketing, you need to read a book called How Brands Grow. It was written about 15ish years ago by a guy called Byron Sharp at the Ehrenberg-Bass Institute down in South Australia. I had the privilege of being trained by Byron and his team when I was at Mars. It's incredibly simple concept of how brands grow, obviously, hence the title, around mental availability, so that the memory structures that sit in your mind. So if I say Coca-Cola to you, now you're thinking about the colour red and swirls and the silvery writing and the shape of the bottle with the little glass pieces, which if you drop it on the floor, it's so recognisable that every shard will look like your worst Coke bottle. Ben Thompson:That's mental availability. And physical availability is the concept of being at arms reach. Whenever the desire to purchase from that category is triggered, that's the concept. But the book kind of goes into much more depth than that. And then I think for anybody in our industry, they need to get the latest copy of Joe's book, Joe and Jim's book The Experience Economy for which I really should be on commission. So I think Joe, we need to have a word about that. I just think you can't operate in this space without having understood that. Authenticity is also a really good one, which is the followup to experience economy. Kelly Molson:That's three books, that's super greedy, but I'm really glad that you shared The Experience Economy because it is a fantastic book. And I'm sure that many of our audience have read it. And if you haven't, you definitely need to. So what we like to do is if you'd like to win a copy, I mean, Ben, this is two books. So this is a double whammy. So if you'd like to win a copy of both of those books, then if you head over to our Twitter account, and if you retweet this episode announcement with the comment, "I want Ben's books," then you could be in with a chance of winning a copy of both of them. You've just upped my costs for this podcast, Ben. Ben Thompson:I actually have several spare copies of How Brands Grow. Kelly Molson:Oh, maybe Ben will send you one, personally. Ben Thompson:So, I'll put one in the post, well thumbed. Kelly Molson:Great. Ben, is there anything else that you'd like to share with us before we head off today? Ben Thompson:I think we're good. This has been really, really enjoyable. Apart from all the skewering you did at the end and made me talk about all the things I was rubbish at. Which is good. Kelly Molson:Just trying to get under the skin, Ben. Ben Thompson:Yes, you did that. Definitely need to edit that out. No, no, it's been great. I think this is a fantastic industry. We've taken a bit of a punch, but there's no limbs broken, we'll come back stronger. We've been growing 3 or 4% Kager for the last 10 years and the industry, entertained a billion people last year, probably slightly more and strong growth across the regions. I think it's a great place to work and have fun. Kelly Molson:That is a lovely place to end the podcast to us both today. Thank you so much for joining us, Ben. It's been a pleasure. Ben Thompson:Pleasure. Awesome. Thank you so much, Kelly. Kelly Molson:Thank you. Kelly Molson:Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website rubbercheese.com/podcast. 

Brought to you by Dexibit, together with the American Alliance of Museums (AAM), IAAPA and Blooloop. For more COVID-19 response resources: https://dexibit.com/covid19/

Nick's ERT: The Decade of the Dark Ride.    Nick joins theme park creative Julian Sylva to discuss the top 10 dark rides of the last decade.  Our thanks go to BLOOLoop for the list! 

Sound design plays an important role in creating immersive attractions. Falcon’s Director of Sound Rick Morris had the opportunity to share how powerful sound can be when creating emotion, anticipation, and even authenticity during his presentation at this year's InfoComm trade show.    Special Credits A huge thank you goes to Blooloop and Avixa for inviting us to be a part of the attractions technology sessions at InfoComm.     ABOUT THE SHOW: “Experience Imagination” is a Themed Entertainment Podcast presented by Falcon’s Creative Group, a design studio and media house that works to create immersive experiences around the world. Learn more about us at www.falconscreativegroup.com.   FALCON’S SOCIAL MEDIA: Tweet Falcon’s: twitter.com/falconscg  Follow Falcon’s: facebook.com/falconscreativegroup/  Like Falcon’s: instagram.com/falconscg/  Pin Falcon’s:  pinterest.com/falconscg/boa

We live in the age of entertainment at our fingertips. Interactive games, exciting videos, and groundbreaking stories are only a click away. So how are theme parks staying competitive as an entertaining pastime and leisure activity, and how is AV playing into this immersive experience economy? Giving their perspectives are Erik Baeumlisberger, corporate manager of guest experience technology at SeaWorld Parks and Entertainment, and Mike Wallace, creative director at Falcon's Creative Group. Both were part of a panel session, presented by Blooloop, at InfoComm 2019 titled "Trends in Theme Park Attraction Experiences." A big takeaway from their presentation and from the podcast is that theme park designers are having to create rides and experience that are personalized and repeatable, and they're turning to tangential industries to draw inspiration. One of those, and the one that piqued our interest the most, was video games. "The video game industry has outpaced the film industry for a few years now," Baeumlisberger said. "It's realtime decision-making that affects your environment and your journey, and if we try to apply those lessons to a dark ride or to a physical environment in a them park, that's when we start to get into this frontier of untapped potential" Wallace said. That realtime differentiation creates an intrinsic uniqueness to each person's ride and tells a new story. It has to, Wallace said. "There's no way you're going to have the same eight people make the same decision." As the world advances technologically at break-neck speed, theme parks are keeping pace by creating immersive, personalized experiences influenced and inspired by tech. So what sets them apart from Virtual Reality or Augmented Reality that people can experience at home? In an ironic twist, theme parks are differentiating themselves from modern digital entertainment by throwing it back to the original form of entertainment, too: theatre. Like video games, improvisational actors add an element of surprise and individuality that keep guests coming back for new experiences. In addition to live actors, theme park innovators are customizing the guest experience by collecting data to help curate an ongoing journey that continues to please the likes of each individual person. Experience creators like Baeumlisberger and Wallace are pushing the limits of creativity by crafting narratives that draw the guest in and make them part of a story. These theme park experiences are unique and catered to each guest, and have a built in sense of repeatability because of that personalization. Listen to these two thought leaders explain why, whether it's a roller-coaster or a haunted house, the thrill for future theme parks lies in users holding the ability to define the ride more than the designer.

BlooTalk is back with an “end of season” special from the famous British seaside resort of Blackpool. Our guests include Blackpool Pleasure Beach deputy managing director Nick Thompson, Blackpool Council's director of place, Alan Cavill, and Iain Hawkins, head of Merlin Entertainments' Blackpool cluster. The north west tourist destination has been visited by 70% of the UK population at one time or another and now it's attempting to reconnect with lapsed visitors with a host of new attractions and upgraded infrastructure projects. Join us for almost an hour of conversation to discover how a failed casino bid paved the way for Merlin's expansion in the town, why IP-based attractions have helped the Pleasure Beach attract a more family-friendly demographic, and how the traditional Illuminations festival is facing new competition from Halloween events around the country. We also catch-up with Charlie Read over a rather dodgy Skype connection for some of the latest stories for Blooloop.com and news of the three blooloopLIVE conferences planned for 2016. Podcast presented by Owen Ralph. #Blackpool #Themeparks #Attractions

The very first attractions industry podcast from Blooloop is here. Episode 1 features interviews with Continuum group CEO Juliana Delaney, discussing Coronation Street The Tour, her opinions on attraction discounting and the case for reduced VAT on attractions, departing Compagnies des Alpes executive Jan Reuvers on Walibi, Disneyland Paris and his outspoken views on Park 21, plus Jamie Christon of Chester Zoo in England, previewing the £40 million Islands projects which opens this July. We also chat to Charlie Read of this parish about the recent blooloopLIVE events in London and Hong Kong. Presented by Owen Ralph.

*Subscribe @ iTunes*   Owner & Editor of Blooloop.com, Charles Read, joins Doug Barnes (SeasonPassPodcast.com) & Brent Young (Super78) in the Season Pass Discussion Room to talk the origin and purpose behind his website.  Charles gives insight on the people who strive to make Blooloop an essential resource for the industry including the informative Bloggers of Blooloop.  The guys also get into a discussion on Merlin Entertainments, Harry Potter, King Kong, Animal Kingdom, Ferrari World (& it's record breaking roller coaster) and the future of Abu Dhabi & Dubailand.  There's plenty of sand ahead, make sure to wear your goggles and enjoy the ride!   www.blooloop.com www.seasonpasspodcast.com Season Pass will be Podcasting in Busch Gardens Williamsburg, VA on August 21st and Kings Dominion Doswell,VA on August 22nd. Follow us on Twitter! – www.twitter.com/theseasonpass   Like the NEW TSPP Facebook page! - http://www.facebook.com/theseasonpass   Contact us:  doug@seasonpasspodcast.com brent.young@seasonpasspodcast.com nick@seasonpasspodcast.com shannonrocks@seasonpasspodcast.com  Call the Hotline with Park Trip Reports, Podcast Comments, or Anything else you would like to announce. – 1-916-248-5524   Thanks to each one of you for listening to the show.  Your support is extremely appreciated.   The International Authority on Everything Theme Park Related.  Join a Cast of Experts and Fans Every Week On an Informative, Immersive Experience into the World of Rides, Attractions and Parks.   © 2010 Season Pass Podcast 

Thrillride.com Creator Robert Coker is back in the Season Pass Discussion Room!  He joins Doug Barnes (Owner and Producer of The Season Pass Podcast) as they discuss www.blooloop.com, more Six Flags woes, other views of the InBev Purchase, Pixar in DCA, future trip to Knott's, and so much more.  Enjoy episode 37!   Check out the website www.seasonpasspodcast.com - Join the  Season Pass Forums when your over there and become our friend on our new MySpace and FaceBook Sites! : )   Want your “Theme/Amusement Park Fun” Pictures on the Season Pass Website?  Send them to seasonpasspodcast@gmail.com or doug@seasonpasspodcast.com and we'll post it!   Contact us: doug@seasonpasspodcast.com brent@seasonpasspodcast.com matt@seasonpasspodcast.com   Call the Hotline with Park Trip Reports, Podcast Comments, or Anything else you would like to announce. –  1-916-248-5524    Thanx to each one of you for listening to the show.  Your support is extremely appreciated.   seasonpasspodcast@gmail.comThe International Authority on Everything Theme Park Related.  Join a Cast of Experts and Fans Every Week On an Informative  Immersive Experience into the World of Rides, Attractions and Parks.