The Robin Zander Show

Hi everyone, welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. This episode is a little different - instead of me hosting, I was actually the guest on my good friend Josh Levine's podcast, Great Mondays Radio. Josh and I went deep on a topic I care about a lot: why soft skills are the hard currency of the future. We explored what really sets humans apart in an age of rapid innovation, the rise of AI, and all the talk about machines taking over jobs. We dug into the skills that can't be automated, the value we bring that AI can never replicate, and why those human capabilities will only matter more in the years ahead. We also touched on leadership, creativity, and how we can all prepare ourselves - and our organizations - for the changes still to come. Please take a moment to subscribe to Josh's show, Great Mondays Radio. It would mean a lot to both of us, and I know you'll enjoy the incredible conversations he's hosting. I'm also excited that Josh will be joining us at Responsive Conference 2025 as a guest - so this won't be the last time you hear from him in our orbit.

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I'm joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of “guardrails” over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can't wait for you to hear more. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here.   Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone's Answer: Ultimate frisbee player – “the entirety of my adult life” Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet – “It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old.” New father – navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a “sanctuary in time,” paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen's metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can't creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone's thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a “container” with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don't care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don't tend to make predictions, but I think this one's inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as “Nones” (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. “There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it's not in the forms we're used to.” A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin's Café and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would become his café, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group – live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. This juxtaposition – a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, “hip” venue – left a lasting impression. “It felt like a revival meeting in the South… except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning – and it just happened to be church.” You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force – something he does daily, independent of career performance. Quotes from Simone's TED Talk: “Some people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble.” Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani. Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college: As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety. He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: “Do you believe in the idea, ‘Do what you love and never work a day in your life'?” Mojgani's response: “Some people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they're not working. Neither is more noble.” This countered Simone's expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work: Business Case: High performance requires rest. People with “greater self-complexity” — more identities outside of work — are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable. Moral Case: Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans. Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse — e.g., pandemic layoffs. Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment. “You're balancing on a very narrow platform… You're susceptible to a large gust of wind.” Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path: It's not anti-work or anti-grind. Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship. Shares how his friend's newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required. “Everyone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal.” Work Isn't Good or Bad – It's Complex (18:34.436) Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: Some say “burn it all down”, that work is evil. Others say, “Do what you love, or it's not worth doing.” His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way: It's not hustle propaganda. It's not a slacker's manifesto. It's about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we're more than just our jobs. He introduces the concept of temporal balance: “There's a natural seasonality to work.” Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets). But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle. What's the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) Robin poses a forward-looking question: In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what's the role of books? Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce. Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope: Human storytelling as a moat: His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies — something LLMs can't yet replicate with nuance. He doesn't know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it. Books are more than information: Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols. Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books. A vinyl-record future: Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl. But they still hold society's most well-formed, deeply considered ideas. The human touch still matters: A typed note that looks handwritten isn't the same as a note that is handwritten. People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world. “You can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world.” He closes with a self-aware reflection: “I don't claim to know whether my career will still exist in five years… which is why I picked this topic for my second book.” “Created by Humans” (25:49.549) Robin references a conversation with Bree Groff, who imagined a world where creative work carries a “Created by Human” tag, like organic food labeling. “I think we'll see that [kind of labeling] in the next few decades – maybe even in the next few years.” As AI-generated content floods the market, human-made work may soon carry new cultural cachet. Simone shares a turning point: after submitting an op-ed to The New York Times, his editor flagged a bad metaphor. En route to a bachelor party, he opened ChatGPT, asked for new metaphors, chose one, and it made the print edition the next day. “Maybe I've broken some law about journalism ethics... but that was the moment where I was like: whoa. This sh*t is crazy.” The Home-Buying Crash Course Powered by AI (27:57) Robin's breakthrough came while navigating the chaos of buying a house. He used ChatGPT to upskill rapidly: Structural questions (e.g., redwood roots and foundation risk) Zoning and legal research Negotiation tactics “The rate of learning I was able to create because of these tools was 10 to 100 times faster than what I could've done previously.” How to Live Without Knowing (29:41.498) Simone previews his next book, How to Not Know, a field guide for navigating uncertainty. In an age of instant answers, our tolerance for the unknown is shrinking, while uncertainty itself is growing. “We're trying to find clarity where there is none. My hope is that the book offers tools to live in that space.” The “Three Horsemen of Delusion”: Comfort – we crave the ease of certainty. Hubris – we assume we know more than we do. Control – we believe certainty gives us power over the future. Robin asks how Simone finds his stories. His answer: chase change. Whether internal (doubt, transformation) or external (leaving a cult, facing rising seas), he seeks tension and evolution. Examples: A couple questioning their marriage An employee leading dissent at work A man leaving his religious identity behind A nation (Tuvalu) confronting its own disappearance “The story you find is always better than the one you seek.” Want to Be a Writer? Start Writing. (36:50.554) Robin asks for writing advice. Simone offers two pillars: Ask These Four Questions: What's the story? Why should people care? Why now? Why you? “Only you can tell the story of buying a café and selling it on Craigslist.” Build the Practice: Writing is not just inspiration—it's routine. Schedule it. Join a group. Set deadlines. “Writing is the act of putting your ass in the chair.” Robin applauds Simone's book title, How to Not Know, for its playfulness and relevance. He asks how Simone's own relationship with uncertainty has evolved through his research. Simone reflects on how writing his first book, The Good Enough Job, softened his stance, from a hot take to a more nuanced view of work's role in life. Similarly, with his new book, his thinking on uncertainty has shifted. “Uncertainty is uncomfortable by design. That discomfort is what makes us pay attention.” Simone once championed uncertainty for its spontaneity and freedom. But now, he sees a more complex dance between certainty and uncertainty. “Certainty begets the ability to become more comfortable with uncertainty.” He gives the example of a younger self traveling with no plan, and the maturity of seeing how some people use uncertainty to avoid depth and commitment. Durable Skills for an Unstable Future (43:57.613) Robin shifts to the practical: In a world where stability is fading, what should we teach future generations? Simone shares three core “durable skills”: Learn how to learn – Adaptability beats certainty. Tell compelling stories – Human connection never goes out of style. Discern control from chaos – Use a mental decision tree: What can I control? If I can't control it, can I prepare? If I can't prepare, can I accept? “Often we're more uncomfortable with uncertainty than with a certain bad outcome.” He cites research showing people are stressed more by maybe getting shocked than actually getting shocked. AI as Editor, Not Author (47:23.765) Robin circles back to AI. Simone explains how his relationship with it has evolved: He never uses it for first drafts or ideation. Instead, AI serves as a “sparring partner” in editing – great at spotting drag, less useful at solving it. “People are often right about something being wrong, but not about the solution. I treat AI the same way.” Simone defends creative friction as essential to craft: rewriting, deleting, struggling – that's the work. The Chinese Farmer & the Fallacy of Forecasts (50:27.215) Robin expresses cautious optimism – but also fears AI will widen inequality and erode entry-level jobs. He asks what gives Simone hope. Simone counters with the “Parable of the Chinese Farmer,” where events can't be judged good or bad in real time. His conclusion: we don't know enough to be either pessimistic or optimistic. “Maybe AI ushers in civil unrest. Maybe a golden age. Maybe yes, maybe no.” He's most hopeful about the growing value of human touch – gifts of time, love, and effort in an increasingly automated world. Where to Find Simone (53:44.845) Website: thegoodenoughjob.com Newsletter: The Article Book Club (monthly articles not written by him, thousands of subscribers) Robin reminds listeners that Simone will be the opening speaker at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18.   People Mentioned: M'Gilvry Allen Anne Helen Petersen Anis Mojgani  Bree Groff  Tim Ferriss Steven Pressfield Ernest Hemingway Justin Gordon   Organizations Mentioned:   Responsive Conference Zander Media Asana, Inc X, The Moonshot Factory (formerly Google X)  Waymo,  Jewish Community Centers (Boulder & Denver)  Robin's Cafe Amazon Google / Alphabet    Books & Newsletters The Good Enough Job  How to Not Know (upcoming book) The 4‑Hour Workweek Just Go Grind  Article Book Club   

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun. We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek.  Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what's “enough” in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next. Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm thrilled for you to hear her on stage. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Books Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art — Lewis Hyde Anansi Boys — Neil Gaiman Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week — Alex Pang Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less―Here's How — Alex Pang Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less — Alex Pang Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts — Ryan Holiday Today Was Fun — Bree Groff The 4-Hour Workweek —Tim Ferriss Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization — Robin Zander Podcasts/Videos TED Talk: How to Start a Movement — Derek Sivers Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree's nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover – a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background.  Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it — it stood out and made a statement. The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. The color isn't quite yellow — it's that “gross green” that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. “It's got some edge... not your straight-up yellow.” This tension – bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off –  is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself. The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn't know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. Bree relates completely. She talks about: Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. The concept of flirtation – not romantic, but playful: A wink in a branding campaign. A reference that only a few insiders get. A running joke between team members. Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection. These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity. “You need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, ‘we're in this together.'” She argues that fun isn't a distraction – it's a sign that something is working. Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don't follow the rules, and that's what makes them interesting. Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: There's a cultural script that says “seriousness = competence.” But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. Being human together – laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold – is what builds bonds. Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. “You have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work.” They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun – it's productive. Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he's realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and “likability.” Bree offers a deeper lens: Being “palatable” – meaning universally acceptable – is actually the opposite of being memorable. People who try to please everyone end up blending in. What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some. She draws a line between Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms. Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it. “Please don't chew me up. I'm not palatable — I'm not trying to be.” This philosophy shows up in her book's voice, design, and in how she shows up in the world. Selling a Book in 2025: Bottles in the Ocean (12:21.838) What's it been like trying to promote a book in 2025? Bree describes her strategy as both scrappy and intuitive: She thinks of book marketing as sending “a million notes in bottles” – not knowing which will land. Her approach includes: Partnering with a publicist. Creating swag kits with branded gear. Pitching the book to “chatty” communities (e.g., alumni groups, newsletters, podcast audiences). Posting regularly, even when it feels silly. She cites the idea of “luck surface area”: the more interesting things you do, and the more people you tell, the more chances something will stick. “You do interesting things and talk about them a lot... and maybe something takes off.” Still, she acknowledges that luck plays a role. There's no guaranteed playbook, just momentum and hope. Is It Worth Talking About? (14:47.63) Robin references a quote from Tucker Max: that all marketing, in the end, is just word-of-mouth. Bree shares what guided her during the writing process: Her goal was to create something remarkable — in the literal sense: Something people would want to talk about. Not just good – but distinct, resonant, and weird enough to share. She wanted to avoid the “business book voice” – flat, generic, overly polished. She lights up when she talks about: Strangers sharing the book on social. Friends are texting her about it. An old college boyfriend resurfaced after reading it. “When that starts happening... You realize the machine is working.” She's less interested in best-seller lists and more focused on impact – ideas spreading from person to person, because they hit. Finding Her Voice: From Blogger to Book Author (16:36.665) Bree traces the evolution of her writing life: Started a travel blog in her early 20s and loved it immediately. Played with writing publicly over the years: occasional posts on LinkedIn, Fast Company, and later Substack (which began two years ago, alongside early book ideation). Writing always felt natural, but being a public voice within organizations came with constraints: “Even when I was CEO, I still felt the need to toe the party line.” Going solo changed everything: No longer represents a company's brand – just her own. Writing feels more honest, bolder, and more fun when it's “Bree Groff's opinions” alone. Stepping out independently accelerated her writing voice and gave her creative freedom. Writing in the Age of AI (18:19.63) Robin asks: Does writing still matter in the world of AI? Bree's take: She's a verbal processor — writing is how she discovers what she believes. “I never know how an article is going to end… I write my way into the idea.” She rarely uses AI in writing (aside from Grammarly). She prefers human composition even for emails. Writing helps her organize and refine her thinking: “I'll write a sentence and go – wait, do I believe that? And rewrite.” What writing offers that AI can't (yet): Emotional authenticity. A confessional power — like stand-up comedy: humans telling uncomfortable truths, out loud. She hopes we'll someday have digital labels like: “This was made by a human.” Robin presses for Bree's take on what AI changes – for better or worse. Bree's pessimistic view: Mass unemployment is a likely risk. Not convinced by the “tech creates more jobs” argument – even referencing Jevons Paradox: as things become more efficient, we just use more of them. “I can't quite think my way out of the unemployment problem.” Bree's optimistic vision: We're burned out. AI could fix that. If used right, AI can reduce workloads, not eliminate humans: “Wouldn't it be great if we used these efficiencies to help people live happy, regulated lives?” This would require a policy change, like tax incentives for companies that adopt a 4-day workweek. But she admits: that's a long shot. “It would take a lot for companies to prioritize reducing burnout over cutting costs.” Entrepreneurship Isn't a 4-Day Workweek (And That's Okay) (25:04.686) Robin challenges Bree's hope with reality: Entrepreneurship is chaotic and demanding, as when he launched both a restaurant and a conference in one year. When building something from scratch, the work is relentless. “There's no 4-day workweek when you're going zero to one.” He notes Bree's book could become a “perennial seller,” but only if she builds that momentum now — and that means hustle. Bree agrees — and offers nuance: She's in a launch phase. The last 6 weeks have been intense: Nights, weekends, articles, appearances. Her daughter is in a full-day camp to support this push. But it's intentional and temporary. She frames her philosophy like this: Overwork can be fun, energizing, even addictive –  if it's seasonal. She's already planned recovery: A two-week log-off in late August. A blocked-out first week of September for reset. Bree continues on the myth of “reasonable” work limits: There's nothing special about 40 or 60 hours. The only reason we cap out is that we literally run out of time. Businesses will take as much as you give, and now AI won't hit those limits. So we have to decide what's enough, not the market. “If we're going to cap work somewhere, why not cap it lower and enjoy our lives?” She reminds us: Deadlines and pace are levers, not laws. You can pull other levers, like starting earlier, extending timelines, or balancing your team differently. Robin shares that his intense physical regimen (handstands, running, cold plunges, hikes) isn't about health prescriptions — it's about joy. That same mindset applies to work. If building his company lights him up, great – but it's a personal choice, not a universal blueprint. Bree underscores that agency is key: the danger arises when a founder's choice to overwork becomes the cultural expectation for everyone else. A CEO has different stakes than employees; assuming equal sacrifice is unfair and toxic. Overwork becomes problematic when choice is removed or social pressure distorts it. They introduce the idea of opportunity cost: Every hour spent grinding is an hour not spent with loved ones, moving your body, or simply resting. Many delay self-care with the illusion they'll "catch up later" – but your body and relationships exist in the now. Robin recalls a brutal 2016: two startups, no time, lost relationships – a visceral reminder that everything has a cost. Work, But Make It Weird (36:39) Robin draws a parallel between their playful ethos and The 4-Hour Workweek: redefining productivity with mischief and authenticity. He asks Bree how leaders can lead differently – more playfully – without violating norms or HR policies. Bree delivers a gem: Her team once suggested that a CEO explain their product to a bunch of 7-year-olds on a picnic blanket. They scripted techy questions ("What's your tech stack?") for the kids, hired a comedy consultant, and filmed the whole thing. It was wild, unexpected… and the most beloved part of an otherwise traditional company week. The magic was in the vulnerability and humanity of the CEO — letting people into his home, sharing space with kids, and showing joy. Bree's advice to leaders: Rearrange the office furniture for no reason. Use Comic Sans in a slide just to annoy a designer. Hide jokes in presentations that only two people will catch. Amuse yourself. That's reason enough, and it models psychological safety and play for everyone else. Robin calls this “the courage to play” – the bravery to step out of line just enough to invite others into the fun. Bree builds on this: We're often afraid that having fun will make us look stupid – but that fear is misplaced. She quotes Amy Poehler: “Nobody looks stupid when they're having fun.” Play is an act of self-assurance, not frivolity. Bree shares a personal win: she turned a project Gantt chart into a hand-drawn arcade-style horse race. No one else joined in, but she loved it. And that joy, in and of itself, is a worthy output. Work According to a 10-Year-Old (42:21.176) Robin asks: How does Bree's daughter describe what she does? Her answer? “You help people work together.” Bree beams — that's not far off. Her daughter has even become her little publicist, linking nail polish to Bree's book and promoting it to strangers. Robin dreams of having kids and wonders about their future in a rapidly evolving world. Bree is grateful her daughter is 10, not 22 – the future feels so uncertain that not knowing is oddly freeing. College may or may not matter; she might be a marketing manager or start an artist retreat in Tuscany. The one stable prediction? Human connection. Jobs built on empathy, presence, and the hug – literal or metaphorical – will always have value. Robin jokes (but not really) about resisting the idea of robot romantic partners. Bree wonders: Will we be seen as biased for resisting AI companionship? Is that the next generational tension? The Only Skill That Might Still Matter in 2040 (43:55.959) Robin asks: What durable skills should Gen Alpha learn in a world of AI and noise? Bree's first thought: “understanding human behavior” — but AI might already be better at that. So she lands on something deeper: The skill of knowing what kind of life you want to lead. It's rarely taught, and sorely needed. That's why so many people wake up at 40, mid-career, with a law degree but no love for the law, and end up switching to something that finally feels like them. Teaching kids to listen to their appetites and curiosities might be the most powerful, future-proof education we can offer. Bree argues that most people were never taught to ask foundational questions about the life they truly want: From childhood to college, we follow preset tracks – curriculum, majors, careers. If you're lucky, you get an elective or two. But real self-inquiry? Rare. We're missing education on key lifestyle preferences: What kind of schedule do I like? What kind of people energize me? Do I want to live in a city or near nature? How much solitude, structure, or chaos is ideal for me? Bree believes this underdeveloped self-awareness is the root cause of burnout: People follow “the path,” get promoted, tick boxes, and still feel unsatisfied. Companies gladly fill the vacuum with corporate ladders and titles – senior director, VP, etc. But we rarely stop to ask: Do I want my boss's job? Her hope for her daughter: not just career success, but aliveness. To develop the instincts and courage to ask: What do I want to get out of my short time here? And to find joy in helping others experience a bit more light while they're here, too. “Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose?” (51:33.666) Robin shares a surprising memory: a third-grade class titled Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose? He doesn't remember the content – school was tough for him then – but the title stuck. It captured something real and deep that still resonates. Bree lights up: “Okay, I take it all back – someone was teaching this, and it was you!” They land on a core truth: that mischief, self-knowledge, and authenticity are deeply intertwined. Knowing who you are is the first step. And honoring the weird, playful part of yourself makes life better — and work richer. Order, Chaos & a Trello Board (53:51) Robin pivots: What did Bree learn about writing through this book, especially while juggling parenting and client work? Bree shares her full process: She started with a Trello board: each list represented a chapter. Over many months, she collected bits of inspiration: ideas from the shower, great quotes, Substack entries, research snippets – all filed as cards. This meant when it came time to write, she wasn't starting from scratch. Her trick: separate idea collection from prose creation. Once she had a "pile of disorganized meat," she could stitch it together with intention. She scheduled 4-hour blocks to write ~1,000 words per session – 50 sessions = a 50,000-word book. She was thoughtful about pacing and reader experience: "That was a heavy part – maybe time for a joke. "I've been light for a while – maybe we need some grounding research." The outcome: a process that respected her creativity, time, and humanity. The Joy of Not Knowing What's Next (54:45.848) Robin asks: Now that the book is out, what's next? Bree doesn't know, and that feels exciting. She's booked through the fall with workshops, consulting, media, and speaking. But beyond that? It's open. She's leaning into serendipity: Publishing the book drew new, inspiring people into her life – people like Robin. She's open to building the classic “author-speaker-consultant” portfolio. Or possibly returning to SYPartners, depending on what fits. Or a totally new path. What makes it possible? A jumpy career history – she's used to leaps. A baseline of financial stability – and a partner with a more predictable job. Uncertainty isn't terrifying when you trust yourself to figure it out. “I can see through October. That's enough.” Robin wraps with heartfelt praise: Few first books feel as personal and reflective of their author as Today Was Fun. Even fewer come with so many shared connections vouching not just for the content, but the author herself. Where to Find Bree Groff (58:13.58) He urges people to read the book and see Bree on stage at the Responsive Conference (Sept 17–18). Bree shares where to find her: Website: breegroff.com Substack, LinkedIn, Instagram – all linked from her site. People Mentioned: Rodrigo Corral Lewis Hyde Neil Gaiman Tony Hsieh James Clear Tucker Max Alex Pang Ryan Holiday Tim Ferriss Amy Poehler Derek Sivers Justin Gordon BJ Fogg Seth Godin Organizations / Companies Zander Media SYPartners Nobel Zappos Microsoft Trello Substack AOL LinkedIn Instagram  

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I'm joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum. We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he'd do differently today. Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) “Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often.”  Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp. He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds “a lot of controversial opinions” on AI, not that it's insignificant, but that there's a lot of “idealization.” Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps: Camp A: “Oh my God, this changes everything.” These are the fear-mongers shouting: “If you don't adopt now, your career is over.” Camp B: “This will blow over.” They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it. Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum. He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are “arms merchants” – they're pushing AI tools because they've invested billions. These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it's unclear how they generate ROI. believe in AI's potential and  aggressively push adoption inside their companies. So, naturally, these execs have to: But “nothing ever changes that fast,” and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base. Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) AI is materially different from past tech, but what's missing is attention to how adoption happens. “The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional.” Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software. Frontline managers are key: it's their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI. Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation. Suggests teams should “play with AI tools” in a way totally unrelated to their actual job. Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. “Well, that's a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?” The point isn't utility,  it's comfort and conversation: What's OK to use AI for? Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI? Should you tell your boss or hide it? The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) Robin brings up Ezra Klein's podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: “What's the purpose of writing an essay in college?” AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output. Says: “I'm much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter.” Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual “sob story” to win favor. All the writing he's done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better. “The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it's what it trains.” Learning How to Learn (6:35) Robin's fascinated by “skills that train skills” – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context. Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and “meta-learning” – especially since it's so hard to measure or study. He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn't the thing itself? We don't yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking. Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us “dumber.” Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time. But also: the “10,000 repetitions” idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill. There's a tension between “performance mode” (getting the thing done) and “growth mode” (learning). He relates it to writing: Says he's a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better. Has a “quad project” with an editor who helps refine tone and clarity but doesn't do the writing. The setup: he provides 80% drafts, guidelines, tone notes, and past writing samples. The AI/editor cleans things up, but Brian still reviews: “I want that colloquialism back in.” “I want that specific example back in.” “That's clunky, I don't want to keep it.” Writing is iterative, and tools can help, but shouldn't replace his voice. On Em Dashes & Detecting Human Writing (9:30) Robin shares a trick: he used em dashes long before ChatGPT and does them with a space on either side. He says that ChatGPT's em dashes are double-length and don't have spaces. If you want to prove ChatGPT didn't write something, “just add the space.” Brian agrees and jokes that his editors often remove the spaces, but he puts them back in. Reiterates that professional human editors like the ones he works with at Charter and Sloan are still better than AI. Closing the Gap Takes More Than Practice (10:31) Robin references The Gap by Ira Glass, a 2014 video that explores the disconnect between a creator's vision and their current ability to execute on that vision. He highlights Glass's core advice: the only way to close that gap is through consistent repetition – what Glass calls “the reps.” Brian agrees, noting that putting in the reps is exactly what creators must do, even when their output doesn't yet meet their standards. Brian also brings up his recent conversation with Nick Petrie, whose work focuses not only on what causes burnout but also on what actually resolves it. He notes research showing that people stuck in repetitive performance mode – like doctors doing the same task for decades – eventually see a decline in performance. Brian recommends mixing in growth opportunities alongside mastery work. “exploit” mode (doing what you're already good at) and  “explore” mode (trying something new that pushes you) He says doing things that stretch your boundaries builds muscle that strengthens your core skills and breaks stagnation. He emphasizes the value of alternating between  He adds that this applies just as much to personal growth, especially when people begin to question their deeper purpose and ask hard questions like, “Is this all there is to my life or career? Brian observes that stepping back for self-reflection is often necessary, either by choice or because burnout forces a hard stop. He suggests that sustainable performance requires not just consistency but also intentional space for growth, purpose, and honest self-evaluation. Why Taste And Soft Skills Now Matter More Than Ever (12:30) On AI, Brian argues that most people get it wrong. “I do think it's augmentation.” The tools are evolving rapidly, and so are the ways we use them. They view it as a way to speed up work, especially for engineers, but that's missing the bigger picture. Brian stresses that EQ is becoming more important than IQ. Companies still need people with developer mindsets – hypothesis-driven, structured thinkers. But now, communication, empathy, and adaptability are no longer optional; they are critical. “Human communication skills just went from ‘they kind of suck at it but it's okay' to ‘that's not acceptable.'” As AI takes over more specialist tasks, the value of generalists is rising. People who can generate ideas, anticipate consequences, and rally others around a vision will be most valuable. “Tools can handle the specialized knowledge – but only humans can connect it to purpose.” Brian warns that traditional job descriptions and org charts are becoming obsolete. Instead of looking for ways to rush employees into doing more work, “rethink the roles. What can a small group do when aligned around a common purpose?” The future lies in small, aligned teams with shared goals. Vision Is Not a Strategy (15:56) Robin reflects on durable human traits through Steve Jobs' bio by Isaac Walterson. Jobs succeeded not just with tech, but with taste, persuasion, charisma, and vision. “He was less technologist, more storyteller.” They discuss Sam Altman, the subject of Empire of AI. Whether or not the book is fully accurate, Robin argues that Altman's defining trait is deal-making. Robin shares his experience using ChatGPT in real estate. It changed how he researched topics like redwood root systems on foundational structure and mosquito mitigation. Despite the tech, both agree that human connection is more important than ever. “We need humans now more than ever.” Brian references data from Kelly Monahan showing AI power users are highly productive but deeply burned out. 40% more productive than their peers. 88% are completely burnt out. Many don't believe their company's AI strategy, even while using the tools daily. There's a growing disconnect between executive AI hype and on-the-ground experience. But internal tests by top engineers showed only 10% improvement, mostly in simple tasks. “You've got to get into the tools yourself to be fluent on this.” One CTO believed AI would produce 30% efficiency gains. Brian urges leaders to personally engage with the tools before making sweeping decisions. He warns against blindly accepting optimistic vendor promises or trends. Leaders pushing AI without firsthand experience risk overburdening their teams. “You're bringing the Kool-Aid and then you're shoving it down your team's throat.” This results in burnout, not productivity. “You're cranking up the demands. You're cranking up the burnout, too.” “That's not going to lead to what you want either.” If You Want Control, Just Say That (20:47) Robin raises the topic of returning to the office, which has been a long-standing area of interest for him. “I interviewed Joel Gascoyne on stage in 2016… the largest fully distributed company in the world at the time.” He's tracked distributed work since Responsive 2016. Also mentions Shelby Wolpa (ex-Envision), who scaled thousands remotely. Robin notes the shift post-COVID: companies are mandating returns without adjusting for today's realities.” Example: “Intel just did a mandatory 4 days a week return to office… and now people live hours away.” He acknowledges the benefits of in-person collaboration, especially in creative or physical industries. “There is an undeniable utility.”, especially as they met in Robin's Cafe to talk about Responsive, despite a commute, because it was worth it. But he challenges blanket return-to-office mandates, especially when the rationale is unclear. According to Brian, any company uses RTO as a veiled soft layoff tactic. Cites Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy openly stating RTO is meant to encourage attrition. He says policies without clarity are ineffective. “If you quit, I don't have to pay you severance.” Robin notes that the Responsive Manifesto isn't about providing answers but outlining tensions to balance. Before enforcing an RTO policy, leaders should ask: “What problem are we trying to solve – and do we have evidence of it?” Before You Mandate, Check the Data (24:50) Performance data should guide decisions, not executive assumptions. For instance, junior salespeople may benefit from in-person mentorship, but… That may only apply to certain teams, and doesn't justify full mandates. “I've seen situations where productivity has fallen – well-defined productivity.” The decision-making process should be decentralized and nuanced. Different teams have different needs — orgs must avoid one-size-fits-all policies, especially in large, distributed orgs. “Should your CEO be making that decision? Or should your head of sales?” Brian offers a two-part test for leaders to assess their RTO logic: Are you trying to attract and retain the best talent? Are your teams co-located or distributed? If the answer to #1 is yes: People will be less engaged, not more. High performers will quietly leave or disengage while staying. Forcing long commutes will hurt retention and morale. If the answer to #2 is “distributed”: Brian then tells a story about a JPMorgan IT manager who asks Jamie Dimon for flexibility. “It's freaking stupid… it actually made it harder to do their core work.” Instead, teams need to define shared norms and operating agreements. “Teams have to have norms to be effective.” RTO makes even less sense. His team spanned time zones and offices, forcing them into daily hurt collaboration. He argues most RTO mandates are driven by fear and a desire for control. More important than office days are questions like: What hours are we available for meetings? What tools do we use and why? How do we make decisions? Who owns which roles and responsibilities? The Bottom Line: The policy must match the structure. If teams are remote by design, dragging them into an office is counterproductive. How to Be a Leader in Chaotic Times (28:34) “We're living in a more chaotic time than any in my lifetime.” Robin asks how leaders should guide their organizations through uncertainty. He reflects on his early work years during the 2008 crash and the unpredictability he's seen since. Observes current instability like the UCSF and NIH funding and hiring freezes disrupting universities, rising political violence, and murders of public officials from the McKnight Foundation, and more may persist for years without relief. “I was bussing tables for two weeks, quit, became a personal trainer… my old client jumped out a window because he lost his fortune as a banker.” Brian says what's needed now is: Resilience – a mindset of positive realism: acknowledging the issues, while focusing on agency and possibility, and supporting one another. Trust – not just psychological safety, but deep belief in leadership clarity and honesty. His definition of resilience includes: “What options do we have?” “What can we do as a team?” “What's the opportunity in this?” What Builds Trust (and What Breaks It) (31:00) Brian recalls laying off more people than he hired during the dot-com bust – and what helped his team endure: “Here's what we need to do. If you're all in, we'll get through this together.” He believes trust is built when: Leaders communicate clearly and early. They acknowledge difficulty, without sugarcoating. They create clarity about what matters most right now. They involve their team in solutions. He critiques companies that delay communication until they're in PR cleanup mode: Like Target's CEO, who responded to backlash months too late – and with vague platitudes. “Of course, he got backlash,” Brian says. “He wasn't present.” According to him, “Trust isn't just psychological safety. It's also honesty.” Trust Makes Work Faster, Better, and More Fun (34:10) “When trust is there, the work is more fun, and the results are better.” Robin offers a Zander Media story: Longtime collaborator Jonathan Kofahl lives in Austin. Despite being remote, they prep for shoots with 3-minute calls instead of hour-long meetings. The relationship is fast, fluid, and joyful, and the end product reflects that. He explains the ripple effects of trust: Faster workflows Higher-quality output More fun and less burnout Better client experience Fewer miscommunications or dropped balls He also likens it to acrobatics: “If trust isn't there, you land on your head.” Seldom Wrong, Never in Doubt (35:45) “Seldom wrong, never in doubt – that bit me in the butt.” Brian reflects on a toxic early-career mantra: As a young consultant, he was taught to project confidence at all times. It was said that “if you show doubt, you lose credibility,” especially with older clients. Why that backfired: It made him arrogant. It discouraged honest questions or collaborative problem-solving. It modeled bad leadership for others. Brian critiques the startup world's hero culture: Tech glorifies mavericks and contrarians, people who bet against the grain and win. But we rarely see the 95% who bet big and failed, and the survivors become models, often with toxic effects. The real danger: Leaders try to imitate success without understanding the context. Contrarianism becomes a virtue in itself – even when it's wrong. Now, he models something else: “I can point to the mountain, but I don't know the exact path.” Leaders should admit they don't have all the answers. Inviting the team to figure it out together builds alignment and ownership. That's how you lead through uncertainty, by trusting your team to co-create. Slack, Remote Work, and the Birth of Future Forum (37:40) Brian recalls the early days of Future Forum: Slack was deeply office-centric pre-pandemic. He worked 5 days a week in SF, and even interns were expected to show up regularly. Slack's leadership, especially CTO Cal Henderson, was hesitant to go remote, not because they were anti-remote, but because they didn't know how. But when COVID hit, Slack, like everyone else, had to figure out remote work in real time. Brian had long-standing relationships with Slack's internal research team: He pitched Stewart Butterfield (Slack's CEO) on the idea of a think tank, where he was then joined by Helen Kupp and Sheela Subramanian, who became his co-founders in the venture. Thus, Future Forum was born. Christina Janzer, Lucas Puente, and others. Their research was excellent, but mostly internal-facing, used for product and marketing. Brian, self-described as a “data geek,” saw an opportunity: Remote Work Increased Belonging, But Not for Everyone (40:56) In mid-2020, Future Forum launched its first major study. Expected finding: employee belonging would drop due to isolation. Reality: it did, but not equally across all demographics. For Black office workers, a sense of belonging actually increased. Future Forum brought in Dr. Brian Lowery, a Black professor at Stanford, to help interpret the results. Lowery explained: “I'm a Black professor at Stanford. Whatever you think of it as a liberal school, if I have to walk on that campus five days a week and be on and not be Black five days a week, 9 to 5 – it's taxing. It's exhausting. If I can dial in and out of that situation, it's a release.” A Philosophy Disguised as a Playbook (42:00) Brian, Helen, and Sheela co-authored a book that distilled lessons from: Slack's research Hundreds of executive conversations Real-world trials during the remote work shift One editor even commented on how the book is “more like a philosophy book disguised as a playbook.” The key principles are: “Start with what matters to us as an organization. Then ask: What's safe to try?” Policies don't work. Principles do. Norms > mandates. Team-level agreements matter more than companywide rules. Focus on outcomes, not activity.  Train your managers. Clarity, trust, and support start there. Safe-to-try experiments. Iterate fast and test what works for your team. Co-create team norms. Define how decisions get made, what tools get used, and when people are available. What's great with the book is that no matter where you are, this same set of rules still applies.  When Leadership Means Letting Go (43:54) “My job was to model the kind of presence I wanted my team to show.” Robin recalls a defining moment at Robin's Café: Employees were chatting behind the counter while a banana peel sat on the floor, surrounded by dirty dishes. It was a lawsuit waiting to happen. His first impulse was to berate them, a habit from his small business upbringing. But in that moment, he reframed his role. “I'm here to inspire, model, and demonstrate the behavior I want to see.” He realized: Hovering behind the counter = surveillance, not leadership. True leadership = empowering your team to care, even when you're not around. You train your manager to create a culture, not compliance. Brian and Robin agree: Rules only go so far. Teams thrive when they believe in the ‘why' behind the work. Robin draws a link between strong workplace culture and… The global rise of authoritarianism The erosion of trust in institutions If trust makes Zander Media better, and helps VC-backed companies scale — “Why do our political systems seem to be rewarding the exact opposite?” Populism, Charisma & Bullshit (45:20) According to Robin, “We're in a world where trust is in very short supply.” Brian reflects on why authoritarianism is thriving globally: The media is fragmented. Everyone's in different pocket universes. People now get news from YouTube or TikTok, not trusted institutions. Truth is no longer shared, and without shared truth, trust collapses. “Walter Cronkite doesn't exist anymore.” He references Andor, where the character, Mon Mothma, says: People no longer trust journalism, government, universities, science, or even business. Edelman's Trust Barometer dipped for business leaders for the first time in 25 years. CEOs who once declared strong values are now going silent, which damages trust even more. “The death of truth is really the problem that's at work here.” Robin points out: Trump and Elon, both charismatic, populist figures, continue to gain power despite low trust. Why? Because their clarity and simplicity still outperform thoughtful leadership. He also calls Trump a “marketing genius.” Brian's frustration: Case in point: Trump-era officials who spread conspiracy theories now can't walk them back. Populists manufacture distrust, then struggle to govern once in power. He shares a recent example: Result: Their base turned on them. Right-wing pundits (Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino) fanned Jeffrey Epstein conspiracies. But in power, they had to admit: “There's no client list publicly.” Brian then suggests that trust should be rebuilt locally. He points to leaders like Zohran Mamdani (NY): “I may not agree with all his positions, but he can articulate a populist vision that isn't exploitative.” Where Are the Leaders? (51:19) Brian expresses frustration at the silence from people in power: “I'm disappointed, highly disappointed, in the number of leaders in positions of power and authority who could lend their voice to something as basic as: science is real.” He calls for a return to shared facts: “Let's just start with: vaccines do not cause autism. Let's start there.” He draws a line between public health and trust: We've had over a century of scientific evidence backing vaccines But misinformation is eroding communal health Brian clarifies: this isn't about wedge issues like guns or Roe v. Wade The problem is that scientists lack public authority, but CEOs don't CEOs of major institutions could shift the narrative, especially those with massive employee bases. And yet, most say nothing: “They know it's going to bite them… and still, no one's saying it.” He warns: ignoring this will hurt businesses, frontline workers, and society at large. 89 Seconds from Midnight (52:45) Robin brings up the Doomsday Clock: Historically, it was 2–4 minutes to midnight “We are 89 seconds to midnight.” (as of January 2025) This was issued by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, a symbol of how close humanity is to destroying itself. Despite that, he remains hopeful: “I might be the most energetic person in any room – and yet, I'm a prepper.” Robin shared that: And in a real emergency? You might not make it. He grew up in the wilderness, where ambulances don't arrive, and CPR is a ritual of death. He frequently visits Vieques, an island off Puerto Rico with no hospital, where a car crash likely means you won't survive. As there is a saying there that goes, ‘No Hay Hospital', meaning ‘there is no hospital'. If something serious happens, you're likely a few hours' drive or even a flight away from medical care. That shapes his worldview: “We've forgotten how precious life is in privileged countries.” Despite his joy and optimism, Robin is also: Deeply aware of fragility – of systems, bodies, institutions. Committed to preparation, not paranoia. Focused on teaching resilience, care, and responsibility. How to Raise Men with Heart and Backbone (55:00) Robin asks: “How do you counsel your boys to show up as protectors and earners, especially in a capitalist world, while also taking care of people, especially when we're facing the potential end of humanity in our lifetimes?” Brian responds: His sons are now 25 and 23, and he's incredibly proud of who they're becoming. Credits both parenting and luck but he also acknowledges many friends who've had harder parenting experiences. His sons are: Sharp and thoughtful In healthy relationships Focused on values over achievements Educational path: “They think deeply about what are now called ‘social justice' issues in a very real way.” Example: In 4th grade, their class did a homelessness simulation – replicating the fragmented, frustrating process of accessing services. Preschool at the Jewish Community Center Elementary at a Quaker school in San Francisco He jokes that they needed a Buddhist high school to complete the loop Not religious, but values-based, non-dogmatic education had a real impact That hands-on empathy helped them see systemic problems early on, especially in San Francisco, where it's worse. What Is Actually Enough? (56:54) “We were terrified our kids would take their comfort for granted.” Brian's kids: Lived modestly, but comfortably in San Francisco. Took vacations, had more than he and his wife did growing up. Worried their sons would chase status over substance. But what he taught them instead: Family matters. Friendships matter. Being dependable matters. Not just being good, but being someone others can count on. He also cautioned against: “We too often push kids toward something unattainable, and we act surprised when they burn out in the pursuit of that.” The “gold ring” mentality is like chasing elite schools, careers, and accolades. In sports and academics, he and his wife aimed for balance, not obsession. Brian on Parenting, Purpose, and Perspective (59:15) Brian sees promise in his kids' generation: But also more: Purpose-driven Skeptical of false promises Less obsessed with traditional success markers Yes, they're more stressed and overamped on social media. Gen Z has been labeled just like every generation before: “I'm Gen X. They literally made a movie about us called Slackers.” He believes the best thing we can do is: Model what matters Spend time reflecting: What really does matter? Help the next generation define enough for themselves, earlier than we did. The Real Measure of Success (1:00:07) Brian references Clay Christensen, famed author of The Innovator's Dilemma and How Will You Measure Your Life? Clay's insight: “Success isn't what you thought it was.” Early reunions are full of bravado – titles, accomplishments, money. Later reunions reveal divorce, estrangement, and regret. The longer you go, the more you see: Brian's takeaway: Even for Elon, it might be about Mars. But for most of us, it's not about how many projects we shipped. It's about: Family Friends Presence Meaning “If you can realize that earlier, you give yourself the chance to adjust – and find your way back.” Where to Find Brian (01:02:05) LinkedIn WorkForward.com Newsletter: The Work Forward on Substack “Some weeks it's lame, some weeks it's great. But there's a lot of community and feedback.” And of course, join us at Responsive Conference this September 17-18, 2025. Books Mentioned How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen Responsive Manifesto Empire of AI by Karen Hao Podcasts Mentioned The Gap by Ira Glass The Ezra Klein Show Movies Mentioned Andor Slackers Organizations Mentioned: Bulletin of Atomic Scientists McKnight Foundation National Institutes of Health (NIH) Responsive.org University of California, San Francisco

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.  Pamela Larde, PhD is a scholar and expert on the topic of joy. She is the author of Joyfully Single: A Revolutionary Guide to Enlightenment, Wholeness, and Change and a professor of Leadership Development at Anderson University. Her mission is to help develop leaders who lead with heart.  Pamela illustrates the role of joy as a powerful tool, empowering individuals to cultivate resilience and gracefully navigate the myriad challenges life presents. Through her teachings, the concept of joy transforms into more than just an emotion—it becomes a reservoir of strength, an anchor of optimism, and a guide to living life to the fullest. In this episode, we talk about the importance of joy at work and in life, the difference between happiness and joy, what to expect from her at Responsive Conference, and more.  Pamela is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Pamela on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change. For today's episode, I sat down with Carole Robin, PhD – an expert in leadership development and interpersonal dynamics. She is best known for her work at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she taught the infamous "Interpersonal Dynamics" course. This course is considered one of the most transformative experiences for MBA students. Her expertise in this field led her to co-author the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues, which was featured as one of Bloomberg's Best Books of 2021.  In this episode, we talk about the key to great leadership, why relationships are so important in your life, what we can expect from her at Responsive Conference 2024, and more. Carole is an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Carole on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.! For today's episode, I sat down with Michael Melcher – author, executive coach, and lawyer. He's best known for his book Your Invisible Network: How to Create, Maintain, and Leverage the Relationships That Will Transform Your Career, a practical guide on building meaningful relationships. Michael's background includes a law degree from Harvard Law School and experience in both law and consulting. He writes and speaks on topics related to career management, personal development, and leadership. In this episode, we talk about how to network effectively without feeling awkward, the importance of nurturing relationships every single day, how personal experiences have shaped Michael's understanding of community and connection, and more.  Michael is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change.! For today's episode, I sat down with Abby Davisson, former president of the Gap Foundation, and author who has worked in the fields of social impact and corporate philanthropy. Abby believes in using business to make positive changes in society. She recently published a book called Money and Love: An Intelligent Roadmap for Life's Biggest Decisions. In this book, she talks about how to make important choices in life, especially when it comes to balancing money concerns with personal relationships and happiness.  In this episode, we talk about social impact through work, money being more taboo than sex, going from intern to president at Gap Foundation, why her graduate degree was the best investment of her life, and much more.  Abby is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Abby on the podcast!  

Hello and welcome back to Snafu, a podcast about behavior change! For today's episode, I sat down with Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, a Silicon Valley-based author, consultant, and researcher famous for advocating for the  4-day work week.  Alex has become a leading advocate for the concept of "deliberate rest" through his books Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less and Work Less, Do More.   Alex challenges traditional notions of productivity, arguing that strategic periods of rest and shorter working hours lead to higher productivity, more creativity, and better job satisfaction.  In this episode, we talk about why we should work less and not more, the importance of deliberate rest in work, breaking work down into smaller tasks, and much more.  Alex is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Alex on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today's episode, I sat down with Sally Thornton, the founder and CEO of Forshay. Forshay is a company that specializes in executive recruiting and improving workplace dynamics through diversity and inclusion. She has a background in creating innovative solutions for work-life balance and has been a speaker at various conferences, including TEDx talks.  In this episode, Sally and I talk about the science of work, how to be a good leader, doing work you love, and much more. Sally is also an official speaker at Responsive Conference 2024! If you haven't yet, get your tickets here: https://www.responsiveconference.com/tickets It was a pleasure having Sally on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today's episode, I sat down with Michael Bugay Steiner, author of books that have sold a million copies, including The Coaching Habit, a self-published book that's become the best-selling book on coaching this century.  Michael Bungay Stanier is a speaker and executive coach. As the founder of Box of Crayons, he's trained thousands of managers in coaching skills. Michael's work focuses on helping people unlock their potential and create more effective workplace cultures. In this episode, Michael and I talk about turning your weaknesses into strengths, giving feedback the right way, talking about how to work together before you actually work together, and much more. It was a pleasure having Michael on the podcast!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today's episode, I sat down with New York Times bestselling author, Charles Duhigg. In this episode, Charles and I talk about the art of communication and the insights from his new book, "Super Communicators." We explore how effective communication is a skill that anyone can learn, focusing on the importance of asking deep questions to connect with others.Charles shares his experiences, including lessons from his time as a reporter in Iraq, and how understanding the types of conversations – practical, emotional, and social – can improve relationships. It was a pleasure having Charles on the podcast! Find his book here: https://www.charlesduhigg.com/supercommunicators

The Habit of Doing Hard Things I appreciate the irony. Do hard things, move to the Caribbean! And while most of us probably aren't going to move to a tiny island in order to make our lives more difficult, there are a lot of simple habits that can help. Identify One Thing  Every Day That Scares You Identify something that scares you. Notice someone you are intimidated by.  Recognize a moment when you avoided speaking up. Identify one moment in your day when you feel physically nervous or afraid. You don't need to take action – not yet! Just bring attention to one uncomfortable moment.  Start with awareness. A Daily Movement Practice There is a lot to be said for daily exercise.  Exercise is hard. When you push your physical limits, you get better at pushing the boundaries of what's possible everywhere else in your life, too. Unfortunately, more than two thirds of Americans are overweight or obese, so clearly pressuring people to exercise does work for everyone. My approach to movement is different. Having broken my neck and then gone on to perform in the circus, I also know the consequences of pressure. Instead, I make a habit of moving every day to build the confidence that I can learn new things. If you're interested, here's a short video about my movement practice. Coffee Shop Challenge (h/t Tim Ferriss) Try this challenge: go to your local coffee shop and ask for a 20% discount.  The rules are that you are not allowed to give any explanation for why you are requesting a discount or any additional details alongside your request. If asked, “Why?” just say that you would like a discount and that is why you are asking.  The point of this exercise is that you are going to be uncomfortable. It will take you outside of your comfort zone.  Notice how it feels to make this request. Notice the tension in your body and  your voice. It doesn't ultimately matter if you get a discount or not, so long as you try.  As a former coffee shop owner, please give that 20% back to your barista as a tip!   Do Something Difficult Every Day Do one thing today that is out of your comfort zone. It could be as small as a short exchange with a stranger, a much-needed conversation, or advocating for your opinion. Thank someone in their native language - If you first have to learn to say “thank you” in a language you don't speak, all the better. Have a conversation with your spouse or a friend - You probably have something that you've been meaning to share, but haven't gotten around to saying yet. Say it! Try to persuade someone of something - We are all selling to and inviting each other constantly. Advocate for your preferred restaurant or movie. When my friends first moved to Vieques, I was skeptical. I'm all for beautiful ocean views, but it was so remote and isolated. (And the hurricanes!) Now that I've spent a month living in that remote paradise, I understand their motivation a little better.  Living there is difficult. Every day is a stretch. And that's the point! In a world where I – and probably you – enjoy every other modern convenience, it is easy to get complacent.  Perhaps, we could all use a bit more discomfort in our lives.  

There are a lot of things about being an entrepreneur that I avoid, but one of the silliest is opening physical mail. When I was starting Robin's Cafe, I got a lot of mail - plans from the San Francisco planning department, legal documents, food permitting, alcohol permitting, pest control notifications, more. I was so busy figuring out the day-to-day of running the business that I developed the bad habit of just ignoring mail and leaving the pile to build up on my desk for weeks on end. When I finally got around to dealing with the pile, there was always a notice that I'd ignored for too long - a vendor I was late to pay, an IRS document I'd missed, etc. As we all do when a task is too big, I came to dread opening my mail. Failure as discouragement When you fail at a task, the experience is often one of discouragement, and that discouragement leads to a diminished desire to attempt that same task in the future. As I discussed recently, success is usually tied to positive feelings and the release of dopamine. Negative feelings often have the opposite effect and result in a feedback loop of negativity and failure. For me, that meant avoiding the mail until I discovered late bills, which meant I'd continue to dread opening mail and let it pile up further. Failure is often a sign that the task you are trying to undertake is too big. A trick, then, is to leverage the cue of the negative feelings of “I can't do this” into action and try again, but make the next attempt different. One way to do this is to break the task down into smaller parts. Make the next step smaller When you are overwhelmed by a new behavior, the easiest way to tackle it is by making the next step smaller. I don't need to open and respond to all of my mail on the day it arrives. A small step is to open every envelope, even if I don't take the mail out right away. This small step moves things forward and makes the next steps - removing the contents, reading them, responding - easier. Take your large goal and just take one small step in the right direction. Create positive associations I have a letter opener that I really love - it is a beautiful folding knife with an olivewood handle. I've learned, in the years since Robin's Cafe, that I derive a particular delight in opening mail with this knife. Look for ways that you can create positive associations around the edges of the habit you've been avoiding. Positive feelings equate to feelings of success. Play more Play and self-judgment are antithetical. When we are being playful or curious with a habit, it is impossible to regard an outcome as a “failure.” The best way I know how to play - especially when I'm not feeling playful - is to get profoundly curious about the task I'm trying to accomplish. Another is to make a game of the process. Personally, I get delighted when I see weeks worth of dealt-with mail pile up in my recycling bin! Look for a step by step breakdown You can almost always find a step-by-step breakdown of the task you are trying to accomplish. Google “how to do x” or interview someone better at that thing than you are. If you've hit a roadblock and aren't sure how to make a task more manageable, someone else has likely solved this problem before you. In writing this article, I asked a few friends about how they handled their daily deluge of mail and got some interesting ideas I'll try in the future! At Zander Media, I receive 10x less physical mail than I did at the cafe. And while there are still remnants of my avoidant behavior, I'm excited to reframe failure as a cue for novel action. These days, I look for areas of my life where I've historically failed and replace the cue of failure with the understanding that I haven't made that behavior small enough, yet. Now, your turn: what's something you've failed at, recently? Reply back and I'll respond with one idea for how to turn that failure into a learning opportunity! Until next time, Robin

I'm traveling with my family to Mexico for two weeks this winter. The trip is a throwback to holidays from my childhood. Every other year, my family avoided the holidays altogether and traveled to Latin America. As a kid, I was sad to miss the holidays, but in retrospect those international trips were formative. This will be the first family trip in a decade and the first time with my nephews (7 and 10). Know why When I took a month-long trip with my mother to Ghana, I had to get very clear in the months leading up to the trip why I was going. And my purpose for taking the trip wasn't to have a great experience. Visiting Ghana was a lifelong dream of my mother's and a trip she wouldn't have attempted alone. My primary reason for going to Africa was to support her; to facilitate her having a positive experience. As you are heading into an experience with family, ask yourself why you are prioritizing spending time in this way: What are you hoping to get out of it? What do you want for your family members? The more clearly you know why, the better you will be at boundaries and making productive use of the time. Habit: Write down 10 different reasons “why” you are taking the action that you are. They won't all feel true, but you'll find something new through the exercise. There's no problem so big you can't walk away I use this phrase, which is oft repeated by a close friend, to remind myself that I have agency. We always have the ability to leave – even when it feels like we don't. It is something of a cardinal sin in my family to leave a conversation or issue unresolved. And yet I'm always calmer for stepping away for ten minutes and coming back to the issue later. Any of us is free to take a break or walk away at any time. Habit: Remind yourself, maybe even aloud, that “There's no problem so big I can't walk away.” Repeating that serves as a reminder that you are not stuck in a difficult situation. Take a pee break Years ago, a friend taught me the trick of taking a “pee break.” Maybe you actually need to use the toilet, but that's beside the point. The goal is that when you are upset you take a couple of minutes to reorient yourself and come back refreshed. Under very few circumstances is it considered socially inappropriate to take a couple of minutes out of a conversation “because I have to use the restroom.” And often you come back better able to handle whatever challenge has been going on. Habit: Practice “taking a pee break” when the stakes are low. During an otherwise unheated conversation say, “I'll be back in 2 minutes. I need to use the restroom.” The better you get at taking a break, the better you'll be able to when things get heated. Therapy with family I'm a proponent of facilitated conversation: therapy, coaching or anything else that works for you. In advance of our trip to Ghana, my mother and I went to therapy together. The objective was to create some guidelines about what we might expect while we were traveling in Africa, and how to collaborate better. My mother and I walked out of therapy with a new willingness to listen to each other, which led to a gentler trip in Ghana then might have happened otherwise. (It was still an intense experience!) Habit: Organize a facilitated conversation. It might not change anything, but it might also result in less drama. Family meetings We had regular family meetings growing up. Once every few weeks, our family of four would sit down and discuss challenges that had come up recently. I don't remember what got discussed, but “let's have a family meeting” remains my family's shorthand when communication is getting tough. Habit: Schedule a brief “family meeting.” The goal isn't to change anybody's behavior, but to create space for airing of grievances – so they don't bubble over at inopportune times. ​ As I get ready to spend two weeks in close quarters with my family in Mexico, I know that I am going to need to practice a lot of these habits and tools. I hope that one of these habits is useful for you as you head into your own holiday plans. Until next time, Robin

I've always believed that in order to acknowledge what's going well in my life, I have to first solve any difficult emotional situations. Over the last few years, I've come to realize that it is often more effective to focus on the positive, instead of first trying to solve the negative. Instead of waiting for things to go just right, it's more effective – and more fun – to focus on what is already going well. Here are some tools that can help… Celebrate the small things By celebrating the small things that are going well – no matter how small they are – we get more practice celebrating. Don't wait for things to go well in order to celebrate. Practice and you'll be surprised at how quickly you feel good about seemingly mundane things in your life. Habit: First thing each morning, write down one small thing that went well from the day before. Flip the judgement I have daily practice with my best friend: we phone each other and inquire “Is there a judgment that you would like to flip?” We pick a negative judgment – that we're holding about ourselves or in the world around us – and look for the positive. If I'm berating myself for a misunderstanding with my mother, I'll look for ways in which that misunderstanding could be beneficial. If I'm judging myself for pushing through an injury, I'll examine how that pain could actually be helpful and result in recovery. By taking something that you are judging as bad and looking for the positive in that same example, you are "flipping the judgement” and practicing gratitude. Habit: Flipping judgements requires a lot of mental dexterity, so start small. Pick something small that you are judging as bad. Write a few sentences about how that situation could, hypothetically, be beneficial. Worst case scenario Tim Ferriss popularized the idea of “fear setting” through this TED talk. The purpose is to identify the worst case scenarios, which usually turns out to not be quite so bad. My worst case scenario usually ends up with me shitting my pants in public and leaving the country in humiliation. But even in my hypothetical worst case scenarios, I usually survive and learn from the experience. For extra credit, you can also explore the Best case scenario! Habit: When you're considering something you are scared of, ask yourself “What's the worst thing that could happen?” Write down a few of your answers. What went well exercise What went well is my favorite among the many exercises Martin Seligman, teaches in his book Flourish. Historically, psychology research focused on “abnormal” psychology or problems to be solved. More than 30 years ago, Seligman began researching and teaching tools that help everyone improve. One exercise that Seligman teaches is “What went well.” Very simply, the practice is to list out three things every day that have gone well. The practice forces you to focus on the specifics of what has gone well. By bringing attention to them, you recognize them, reinforce them and make them bigger. Habit: Write down three things that went well for you in the last day. Feel shine In Tiny Habits, BJ Fogg coined the word “Shine” to describe the internal positive emotion we give ourselves when we've done something well. When we reward ourselves with that internal feeling of celebration, we create a positive feedback loop. For more on Shine, here's an article on the topic from TED. Habit: Take 2 minutes and deliberately feel good about something you've done today. Pat yourself on the back, pump your fist or smile in the mirror. Look for awe I was sitting in the sauna a few weeks ago and struck up a conversation with UC Berkeley Professor Dacher Keltne, who has spent his career studying awe. As we began to talk about his research I was reminded of the life changing moment when I first saw the circus. My parents took me to see Cirque du Soleil's Alegria, shortly after I began studying gymnastics at 17 years old. Watching the acrobats opened my eyes to what the human body is capable of and led to the last few decades of my movement career. Awe has the capacity to fundamentally change our perspective and widen our world view. (I'm also going to attend the professor's last class of the year next week. I'll report back) Habit: Seek out awe. Whether through a beautiful view, over a meal with family or in listening to great music, look for an experience of awe. When you open yourself to the feeling of awe, you're more likely to experience it. ​ As you spend time with friends and family this holiday weekend, or go about your life, I hope one of these tools is helpful.

Everything You Know About Sales is Wrong Everything in life is sales. From inviting your child to do her homework, to deciding where to go for dinner, to encouraging a colleague at work, the situations we encounter daily are filled with the dynamic of sales and persuasion. And, unfortunately, most of what you know about sales is wrong. What is Sales? My favorite example of sales comes from a scene from the classic Christmas movie Miracle on 34th Street. In Miracle, the Macy's department store Santa asks each child who sits on his lap what they want for Christmas. Santa then tells the family where they can purchase that toy at the best price, even if it means at a competing department store. At first, the store manager is outraged that Santa is supporting his competitors - until he sees enthusiastic customers returning to Macy's because of the excellent customer service. The value to Macy's of Santa's recommendations is greater than the sale of a single children's toy; it's customer loyalty. Sales is having a clear solution – a service, opportunity or opinion – that can help to solve somebody's problem. Like Santa, good sales means aligning yourself with the interests of the person you are talking to, to discover if your solution is a good fit for them. If it is, invite them toward your solution, and if not, move on. How to Do It Wrong Sales and persuasion are most often practiced with pressure and urgency. Think of the reputation of a car salesman – pushy, fast-talking, deceptive. They aren't considering what is best for the customer. They only want to sell a specific car at the best possible price. The result: nobody enjoys the experience and the customer won't recommend that product or service in the future. Pressure and urgency can work, but only in the short-term. They don't increase trust or loyalty. How to Do It Right A Process of Discovery Done well, sales and persuasion should be a process of discovery. Instead of using force, inquire about what your friend wants to eat for dinner. Get curious about why your colleague doesn't want to do the work assigned to them. When you start by asking questions about what someone is looking to solve – for themselves, their business, or their family – you'll discover if what you are selling is a good fit for the other person. People relate through the stories that you tell them, so share your experience, too. As I discussed in “Everything is Storytelling,” your story should be brief, personal and relatable. Useful Beliefs About Sales and Persuasion Abundance - If the person you are talking to doesn't want the solution you are offering, somebody else will. There are between 7 and 8 billion people in the world today. If the person you are talking to is not a good fit, move on. Believe it - Believe in what you are selling. That doesn't mean that it is valuable to every single prospective buyer, only they can tell you that. But believing that it is valuable in the world makes closing easier, genuine, and fun. Decrease the stakes - There are very few game changing moments in life, and this specific sale isn't likely to be one of them. Whether or not you make this sale today isn't likely to matter over the course of your or your customer's life. Autonomy - Foster the belief that everybody knows what's best for themselves. You aren't trying to convince anyone, but rather inviting them to entertain if what you're offering is a good fit for them. Look for “What I've learned” - It is useful to hold that even if you don't close a sale, you will have learned a lot along the way. This practice of iteration and repeated repetitions will make you better at closing future sales. Put in the Reps Improving at sales is a matter of practice and incremental improvement. Many of the most successful salespeople and deal makers in the world have practiced tens of thousands of times. Sales is as much a performance as trying out for a sport or auditioning for a play, and practice makes for consistency. Your Attitude Closes Deals Who you are and how you show up with a prospective customer is what will determine whether they buy. Who you are closes deals. Maintain an attitude of enthusiasm and want what is best for the other person. You'll have a better chance of having things go your way. ​ Next time you are debating with your spouse about the dishes, trying to get your child to do their homework, or asking an employee to fill out their hours, think of Santa, sitting in Macy's department store, referring customers to the competition. Until next time, Robin

Two years ago, my best friend was diagnosed with Stage 3 breast cancer. Two months ago, I went through a breakup. Whether personally or globally, challenges arise. Someone you love dies. A friend lets you down. You're forced to confront your own aging or an aging parent. Grief is complicated. We aren't taught much about it or how to deal with it. It is important to take time to mourn a loss. Here are some habits and practices that might help.   The role of emotions Sometimes emotions are almost too much to handle. You'll criticize yourself, or other people. You are less happy or healthy than you want to be. But, it turns out, without emotions, we are unable to function in the world. There are some interesting studies done on the role of emotions. When someone suffers brain damage such that they can't experience emotion, they are also unable to make decisions. While you sometimes might prefer to do without emotions, the alternative is much worse. You can't enjoy the beautiful things in life if you don't also experience some of the challenges. Habit: When you are grieving, find something in the same situation, however small, to be grateful for. ​ Take time to grieve Grief sneaks up at random times. When you least expect it, you may see something that reminds you of someone who's died and the upswell of emotion can be hard to handle. It doesn't have to be an actual death, either. The loss of a relationship, or even a missed opportunity can be something we need to grieve. It helps to take time to grieve. Difficult emotions will still come up, but setting aside time does help. Habit: During a difficult time, carve out at least one minute a day to be present to your emotions. I like to set an alarm on my phone as my cue. I prefer to write during this pause, but any reflective activity can help. ​ Don't judge your process Everyone's process for getting over a challenging situation is different. It might mean going to therapy or bitching to a friend. I process emotions by waking up at 5 a.m. full of adrenaline and going for a hard run. The key is not to judge yourself for the fact that you are grieving. Then you're not only feeling bad, but you are beating yourself up about it, too. Don't judge your process. Habit: Recognize what helps you. Take 10 minutes and write down a list of things that help you take care of yourself. ​ Grief takes the time that it takes I was in a serious car accident last year. I knew that it would take some time to heal and I was gentle with myself for the first couple of weeks. But a few weeks in, I started getting anxious to get back to my movement practice and the rest of my life. I wasn't in pain, but I was still very shaken up and the added pressure didn't help. In all, it took more than six months to get back to baseline. Just like healing from physical injury, grief can't be rushed. Healing happens on its own time. Habit: If you find yourself pressuring yourself to “get over it,” decide on a timeline. Give yourself one day, one week, or one month where you won't pressure yourself to “be there” already. ​ Don't use force The Morningstar Company, which I wrote about in my book Responsive: What It Takes To Create A Thriving Organization, is one of the largest tomato manufacturers in the world. What makes the company unique is that it is self-managed by the employees. One of the company's two core tenets is “Don't use force” in working with each other. We're accustomed to using anger, pressure, and blame at work – but at what cost? To the detriment of relationships, our own health, and building the habit of doing more in the future. Instead of trying to force yourself to feel better, acknowledge your grief. Take time to feel what you are feeling. Habit: You wouldn't use force – physically or emotionally – with a young child or in an intimate moment with a partner. Treat yourself that same way, even if only for a moment. ​ We don't get to control what happens to us or to the people we love. (I can't. If you've figured out how – please email me!) But we do get to control how we respond. Grief is a natural part of life. It is how we make sense of what's happened and move forward. When you're going through a challenge, take the time to acknowledge your grief. I hope some of these habits help.

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!  For this week's episode, I sat down with Eden Full Goh, the founder & CEO of Mobot.  Eden founded Mobot, a physical testing infrastructure in the cloud after her experience as a Product Manager. She noticed how challenging it was to do regression testing on mobile apps and created Mobot as the solution.  In this episode, we take a deep dive into her experience learning how to Coxswain (leading a team of rowers) and how that ties into entrepreneurship. We also talk about the companies she built leading up to Mobot and her experience as a Thiel Fellow.  It was a pleasure sitting down to chat. I hope you enjoy this spirited and comprehensive conversation! 

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For this week's episode, I sat down with my longtime colleague and friend, Katie Stricker. Katie is the Co-Founder, President, and Chief Coaching Officer at Sayge, a tech-enabled service that provides companies with accessible coaching services. Having worked with a coach for 14 years, Katie knew the importance of coaching and seldom saw it offered beyond C-Suite employees. Sayge has been around for over 6 years and coaches people in all positions, from CEO to Administrative Assistant. We sat down to talk about her history with coaching, what it takes to run a thriving organization, and the transition from Co-Founder to Leader. It was a joy to sit down with Katie and learn more about her story and Sayge. Enjoy!

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! For today's episode, I sat down with my dear friend, Rajkumari Neogy. Rajkumari is the founder of iRestart and an executive coach utilizing epigenetics and neurobiology to understand clients and shift communication across organizations. He uses the intersection of technology, culture, and empathic language to address complex and deep-rooted problems in individuals and businesses. All while making you feel heard, seen, safe, and taken care of. It was a great joy to sit down with him and hear more about his work, the impact that trauma has on each and every one of us, and the experiences that led him to coaching. You can learn more about him and his work here: https://rajkumarineogy.com/ 

Hello and welcome back to The Robin Zander Show!  Today's episode was recorded right before going on stage at Culture Summit 2022.  I spoke on a panel called Trends and Insights that will Shape The Future of Work in 2022 and Beyond about becoming more of ourselves through the work we do. In this episode I talk about embracing the energy I feel before going on stage and the vocal prep work i've been doing with my voice coach. 

Hello and welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is a panel discussion I participated in at @Culture Summit 2022 called Trends and Insights that will Shape The Future of Work in 2022 and Beyond. We cover remote & distributed work, empathy in the workplace, how to show up as a full human at work, and the responsibility of organizations. A pleasure to join this incredible group onstage: Lisa Paredes Lauren Guilbeaux

Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is a talk I gave to a group called First Founders. Based in Lagos, Nigeria, First Founders is a group of venture capitalists and entrepreneurs who build, scale and fund startups based out of Africa. I sat down with a group of founders and VC's to share some of my personal stories from founding businesses. From building Robin's Cafe, to Responsive Conference and Zander Media, I talk about what I learned along the way. It was an honor to speak at their conference. I hope you enjoy!

Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is an interview I did on my friend Lar Schmidt's Redefining HR podcast.  In this interview, we discuss my atypical career path, creativity and digital storytelling, and our work in video at Zander Media. We also talk about Zander Media's new documentary, “Parenthood @ Work.” I've long admired Lars and his work at Amplify Talent, so it was a pleasure to sit down with him and talk about the future of HR and the importance of people.  Enjoy!  

Welcome back to The Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is one I did with Jamie Ceglarz, Co-founder and Managing Member of the Operators Guild & Guild Talent. Ran by Jamie, both organizations provide a community for excellent operators, COOs who are in charge of running sophisticated organizations. Jamie and I discuss problem solving processes', learning from each other's similarities and differences and finding your driving North Star. We also talk about our entrepreneurial endeavors and the organizational importance of self starters, specifically in the Operators world. It was a pleasure to sit down with Jamie, you can find more about him, The Operators Guild and Guild Talent here: https://operators-guild.com/ https://guildtalent.com/ Or reach out directly: jamie@guildtalent.com

Welcome to Episode 6 of Ask RPZ, where I answer your questions! I've been asking people questions, via my podcast, for almost 10 years, so I've decided to turn the tables and answer your questions, too! This week I answer questions from @Noah Hussin, @Jesse Freese, @Emily Rogers about video marketing and making content that people want to see! I answer questions about social media platforms and how my online content has evolved since I started creating in 2008. Watch the video @Zander Media did for @Jesse Freese and @startupexperts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdNW5Rj26vs We are currently preparing to film episode 7 of Ask RPZ- comment below with questions about narrative strategy, marketing, behavior change, and more!

Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! For today's episode I sit down with Eddie Hudson & Tullio Siragusa on the Tech Backstage podcast. The podcast goes behind the scenes with today's leaders who discuss the intersection of technology and problem solving, and applying Design Thinking to business. In this episode, we discuss how connection is essential for a courageous organization and drives innovation in business. I tell the stories of my first adult gymnastic class and opening Robins Cafe with no prior restaurant experiences - both of which involved growing comfortable with my fear. We also discuss supporting people within your organization on their own self awareness journeys and leading by "Love, Guide, Let go." I am thrilled to share this episode with you!

Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today's episode is an interview I did with my friend Jennifer Brown on her podcast The Will to Change. Jennifer Brown is a long time DEI consultant, speaker, and the author of several books, including "How to Be an Inclusive Leader" and "Beyond Diversity."  Jennifer and I discuss a wide array of topics from the importance of bravery and courage at work, to the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on various marginalized communities. We also talk about my recent vocal training. As a former operatic singer herself, Jennifer had lots of questions, and you can learn here. I am delighted to share this episode!

Andrew Bartlow is the founder of Series B Consulting and People Leader Accelerator, and the author of the new book "Scaling for Success." In this conversation, I sit down with Andrew Bartlow to talk about his career and work in HR, what it was like to grow up in a family business, and how he's built People Leader Accelerator, his modern executive development program for HR people. We discuss how growing up in a formative family business that eventually went bankrupt has impacted both his need for stability and security, and his passion for entrepreneurship, and his path into HR. I've known Andrew for many years, and my company Zander Media has had the privilege of working for his company People Leader Accelerator, but in this conversation we dive into a lot of far more personal conversations which we've never before taken the time to share. I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation about the highs and lows of family business, entrepreneurship, and the modern face of HR.

Welcome back to the Robin Zander Show!   Today's interview is a sit down I did on the new podcast “Talent Talks with Nolan Cox!” For the inaugural episode, Nolan Cox and I sat down for a deep dive about the future of work and building courageous organizations. I talk about being a "future of work" OG - or anyway talking about things like remote a distributed work at my annual event Responsive Conference as far back as 2015. We discuss how organizations have been forced to evolve as a result of Covid-19 and the upheaval of the last few years. And we talk tactics for building great places to work, to keep talented employees engaged, longterm. If you enjoy this conversation, check out new episodes of Talent Talks, wherever you listen!

Hello, and welcome back to the Robin Zander Show! Today, I'm pleased to sit down with my dear friend Jenny Sauer-Klein. Jenny is the founder of Scaling Intimacy: a School of Experience Design, and the Culture Conference, an invite-only immersive 2-day event for leaders. She is an experience designer, facilitator, and also the co-founder of the global movement of AcroYoga. Jenny played a big role in the earliest days of several of my businesses, including Robin's Cafe and Responsive Conference, and I learned a lot from her when I started building physical spaces for people to gather and learn. In today's conversation, we discuss Experience Design, how the pandemic only accelerated the importance of skillful facilitation, and much more. For part I of this conversation, listen in here: https://www.robinpzander.com/co-founding-acroyoga-how-to-create-a-global-movement-and-the-courage-to-start-over-with-jenny-sauer-klein/ Learn more about Jenny and her work: https://www.jennysauerklein.com/ https://scalingintimacy.com/ Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

My guest today is Marcus Sawyer, the founder of EQ, a private community that connects diverse professionals with professional opportunities. I connected with Marcus because of a mutual love of building the Future of Work, our shared passion for entrepreneurship and the hustle that building great companies requires, and building communities that support people. As Marcus and EQ say: "each one touch one" - when each individual within a community supports someone else, magic happens! In this interview, we also talk about learning to put in the work by selling gym memberships, when to put in the work and when to let go of control, his "Ten Ps" framework (including: Purpose, Problem, Positioning, Prospects, Profit model. Prototype, Partners, People, Process), and much more.

Hello and welcome back to the Robin Zander show! Today's guest is Merritt Quisumbing Anderson, an employment attorney, former Head of People at Github, a mother of 3, and founder of Merritt+ Consulting. Merritt also happens to be an adviser to Zander Media, and my dear friend. In this episode, we cover Merritt's history, ranging from her experience as a child of immigrants to how she has built a career advocating for employees, as well as the organizations, she works with. Whether you are building a company or contributing to a company's culture, Merritt's experience across multiple industries has tactics and stories you can use. Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

Marie Szuts is the consummate professional dilettante. Marie grew up in a family of musicians, and in University picked up the extremely nerdy, and quite beautiful Viola da Gamba at University, which she continues to play at the highest levels today. Along the way, she obtained a Masters of Divinity Studies from Yale, became Managing Editor for food magazines, and then found herself as the Vice President of People at two fast-growing technology companies, Inkling and Figma. From an obsession with spoon carving, renaissance music, and the modern world of HR, Marie has built a life and career by finding beauty in everyday things. You can find Marie on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marie-szuts/ Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

Today's interview is with my friend, Eric Bahn, the co-founder of Hustle Fund. I admire Eric for his authenticity on the internet, the kinds of organizations that he backs and promotes, and, most importantly for his, minivan dad life! Eric always stays true to himself - in a world that, that encourages the opposite. I'm really excited for this interview. I hope you enjoy!

My guest today is Aaron Beashel, Founder of Attributor and former Head of Marketing at SafetyCulture and Campaign Monitor. Aaron is passionate about getting away from the venture capital funding model and the world-changing moonshot mentality that it mandates. In this conversation, he shares a wealth of ideas for how to build and sustain a company that's NOT aiming for a billion dollars in annual revenue and a global reach. How do you gradually grow a company that supports your lifestyle goals? Aaron is a master of his craft, and we're lucky that he's turned his attention to smaller, simpler projects. His vision for sustainable company culture and work-life balance is inspiring. We're definitely all about this type of business and growth at Zander Media, and it's a real pleasure to sit down with such an experienced marketer to hear about how he makes a bootstrapped business work for him.

Today's episode is an interview that I gave on the Agile Wire Podcast, all about Responsive Org and the future of work. We talk about building resilient and adaptable organizations. We talk about Agile and Responsive, those movements, and what they mean. And there's a lot in here about how to build organizations that are truly adaptable and can thrive in tumultuous circumstances. I hope you enjoy.

I'm excited to share Episode 3 of Ask RPZ, with my friend Aubrey Blanche. This this episode we tackle some big, philosophical questions like: “What's a moment from your life of bridging understanding across differences?”  “What's a powerful moment of recognizing universal truth? We also get down to brass tax with: “What's the worst business decision you've ever made?” (Any decision made hastily and out of anger. ) And, very important: “What's your favorite flavor of ice cream.” (Mint! And I will die on this hill.)  If you enjoyed this episode, check out the first two episodes of Ask RPZ on my YouTube, and my recent longford interview with Aubrey Blanche here.

My guest today is Kalee Gardella, founder of KMG collective.  KMG collective is a consultancy which works to foster network and community among some of the better known venture capital firms in the world. I was really struck when I first met Kalee, by her words, “Serve those with the courage and conviction to build from scratch.” And being somebody who builds my companies from scratch as well, I'm really intrigued by what that means to her.  In this conversation, we talk about brand and marketing strategies for startups and for venture capital, and dig deep into the role of venture capital in building the current and future world of work. I hope you enjoy this wide ranging conversation about marketing, brand, and the future of venture capital with my friend Kalee Gardella.

I've built two successful businesses and am deep in the weeds of growing my third, Zander Media. What you miss when I say that is the dozen or so failed businesses I've started along the way or that never really got off the ground. One of the biggest factors that contributed to my success with building businesses has been an unexpected quality – solving a problem that I have. It's silly, it's humbling, and it keeps me showing up and working hard every day.

Welcome to Episode 2 of our new show Ask RPZ, where I sit down with questions about anything! But in particular, about business, movement, and self-awareness. In today's episode I tackle a variety of questions, including: -Do you get bored doing the same thing every day? -What were some of my lessons building and selling Robin's Cafe? -How do I stay diligent and productive all the time? -How has the covid pandemic impacted marketing? -How do you celebrate a big win? Also, I talk about how much I don't love broccoli! I hope you enjoy, and if you have question, leave a comment or email me at robin@zandermedia.com.

Today's guest is Morgan Chaney, Senior Director of Marketing at Blueboard. Blueboard is an organization that helps companies like Pinterest, Eventbrite, Gopro, and more reward their employees with memorable and meaningful experiences. In this conversation, Morgan and I cover her background, the importance of leadership, and what works in the contemporary ecosystem of marketing to create a lasting impact. I hope you enjoy this conversation!

Hello and welcome to the Robin Zander Show! Today my colleagues at Zander Media are asking me a few questions about work and home. It's always fun to turn the interviews around on myself, especially because self awareness and self inquiry are at the core of how I live my life. These questions delve into the balance of intensity and intentionality that I'm finding as I grow my company right now. We also talk about my home life in the redwoods with my dog Riley, and my favorite things about cold plunges and float tanks. Please send me any questions you'd like to hear answered! I love hearing from all of you. I hope you enjoy today's conversation.

My guest today is Zach Morrison, the CEO of Tinuiti, one of North America's largest independent digital marketing agencies. Tinuiti manages more than $1.5 billion in advertising, spent across the triopoly of Google, Facebook, Amazon. I learned about Tinuiti when their founder spoke at my annual event, Responsive Conference, in 2017. Throughout its history, Tinuti has led the way as an extraordinarily people-centric organization, including winning AdAge's Best Place to Work for multiple consecutive years. We discuss how Tinuiti has built their business on the idea of “treating people well,” and much more. I hope you enjoy this interview!

I've always been insecure about my voice. For whatever reason, it never occurred to me before that I could train my own voice, just like I train handstands, writing, and business. But a few months ago, I started taking voice lessons. My understanding of my own voice on both a technical and an intuitive level has increased at the same time as my confidence. It's humbling to share this insecurity of mine, especially when I'm just in the early stages of, literally, finding my voice. Thanks for joining us today for this short episode. This is also released as a vlog on my YouTube Channel, which you can find via robinpzander.com or search YouTube for Robin P Zander. I hope you enjoy!

Katie Bisbee is the Chief Marketing Officer of one of the most innovative non-profits in the world - Donors Choose. DonorsChoose.org was one of the very first organizations to use crowdfunding, before that was even a coined term. Donors contribute on the website, and that money then goes to supporting teachers and schoolchildren with the tools needed to have the best public school experience possible. Donors Choose has raised over one billion dollars for schools across America! In this interview, we discuss how Donors Choose has kept ahead and remained one of the most innovative companies in the world by fostering personal relationships between donors and classrooms, and staying focused on nimble growth. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Katie Bisbee, the CMO and Executive Vice President of Partnerships at Donors Choose.

I'm so excited to introduce my guest today: Michele Floriani, Chief Marketing Officer at Sequoia Consulting Group.  Sequoia started out as an HR broker 20 years ago, but has morphed into a full service provider, bringing HR tools to companies from early stage startups through to enterprise companies.  Michele comes from a fine art and business background, and he blends these in his work today leading brand and marketing at Sequoia. He focuses on the company as a whole: The experience of employees and clients is an essential part of both branding and just running a good business. This holistic viewpoint is grounded in Michele's dedication to getting the details just right for both creative work and operational processes. Listening to him talk about his work is truly sitting with a master craftsman. And I should note: Zander Media has had the pleasure of working with Sequoia over the last several years to produce a variety of videos about the company. Michele's wealth of experience and deeply caring approach to his work are a beacon in a rapidly changing world. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did!

This is one of the toughest parts of my life to look back on. And there is so much value in looking at ourselves, understanding our history, bringing those moments to the present and asking, “Who do I want to become?”  Without having overcome challenges in my childhood, I would never have had the confidence to open up a cafe or start a media company. Strength comes from understanding our past, and our failures, and then building a future on top of what we've learned.

Today's delightful guest is Jacqui Gibson-Clark, CEO of Job Portraits.  Job Portraits is an employer branding studio, which helps fast growing companies showcase their culture and values to prospective hires.  Jacqui brings a decisive vision to her work with Job Portraits that comes from years of hands-on learning in the field. She's also full of delight, laughter, and practicality. In this conversation, Jacqui shares about her greatest teachers in life -- mistakes and on-the-ground experience. She talks about the structure of a great agency, and the biggest mistakes she's seen agencies and clients make. I hope you learn as much as I have from Jacqui today.

One of my most important self-awareness practices is my daily writing habit. And I've always written a lot, not just for the blog or publishing books, but for myself to synthesize my own learnings. In today's episode, I talk about how I approach writing each day, and what I try to get out of it. Over the past ten years, I've built up a deeply supportive practice. Thanks for taking a few moments to stop in, and I hope you make some time for reflection and personal growth today.