Podcast appearances and mentions of Robin Zander

We're celebrating our 10th anniversary all year by digging in the vaults to re-present classic episodes with fresh commentary. Today, we're revisiting our 2021 conversation with Richard Marx. ABOUT RICHARD MARX:Grammy-winning performer Richard Marx has sold more than 30 million albums as an artist, but if you only know him from late 1980s ballads such as “Hold on to the Nights” and “Right Here Waiting,” you only know part of the story. A prolific songwriter, Marx has landed fourteen songs at the top of various Billboard charts, and has written a #1 single in each of the last four decades. His genre-crossing songwriting success includes “What About Me” and “Crazy,” which Kenny Rogers carried to the top of the Adult Contemporary and Country charts, respectively; “Edge of a Broken Heart,” a hit for the female metal band Vixen; “This I Promise You,” a Top 5 pop single for NSYNC that stayed at #1 on the Adult Contemporary Chart for 13 weeks; Josh Groban's debut single “To Where You Are,” which also reached #1; and “Dance With My Father,” which Richard wrote with the song's performer, Luther Vandross, and which earned the pair the prestigious Grammy Song of the Year award in 2004. Additionally, Richard has scored three major hits with Keith Urban: the Top 5 “Everybody,” and the #1 singles “Better Life” and “Long Hot Summer.”  Despite all his songwriting success, however, Marx is best known as a singer and performer who today jokes about his 80s hairstyle and of-the-era drum sounds. But the songs are undeniable, all of which Marx wrote and produced himself. His debut self-titled album yielded four Top 5 singles: “Don't Mean Nothing,” “Should've Known Better,” “Endless Summer Nights,” and “Hold on to the Nights.” His follow-up, 1989's Repeat Offender, was even more successful, going quadruple-platinum and earning two number one Billboard pop singles, “Satisfied” and “Right Here Waiting,” in addition to the Top 5 “Angelina.” More hits followed, including “Keep Coming Back,” “Hazard,” “Take This Heart,” “Now and Forever,” and “Until I Find You Again.” In addition, Richard's songs have been integral to a number of successful film soundtracks. He earned a Grammy nomination for his contributions to St. Elmo's Fire; scored a Top 10 pop hit with “Surrender to Me,” which Ann Wilson of Heart and Robin Zander of Cheap Trick recorded for the movie Tequila Sunrise, and wrote “At the Beginning,” a hit duet for the film Anastasia that Richard performed with Donna Lewis. Over the course of his career, Richard's songs have been recorded by Barbra Streisand, The Tubes, Sarah Brightman, Monica, Natalie Cole, Michael Bolton, Paulina Rubio, Emerson Drive, Chicago, Billy Ray Cyrus, Vince Gill, Kenny Loggins, LeAnn Rimes, Celine Dion, Julio Iglesias, Berry Manilow, Daughtry, Vertical Horizon, Lifehouse, Dave Koz, Jennifer Nettles, Ringo Starr, and many others. His memoir, Stories to Tell, is available from Simon & Shuster.   Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Kevan Lee and Shannon Deep, co-founders of Bonfire – a creative studio reimagining what it means to build brands, tell stories, and live meaningful lives. We talk about how Bonfire began as a "Trojan horse" – a branding agency on the surface, but really a vehicle for deeper questions: What does fulfilling work look like? How do we find meaning beyond our careers? And how can business become a space for honesty, connection, and growth? Kevan and Shannon share how their partnership formed, what it takes to build trust as co-founders, and how vulnerability and self-awareness fuel their collaboration. We explore their path from tech and theater to building Bonfire, hosting creative retreats, and helping founders tell more authentic stories. We also dive into how AI is changing storytelling, the myth of "broetry" on LinkedIn, and why transparency is the future of marketing. If you're curious about what's next for creativity, leadership, and meaningful work, this episode is for you. And for more conversations like this, stay tuned for Responsive Conference 2026, where we'll be continuing the dialogue on human connection, business, and the evolving role of AI. Start (0:00) How Bonfire Started (14:25) Robin notes how transparent and intentional they've been building their business and community Says Bonfire feels like a 21st-century agency – creative, human, and not traditional Invites them to describe what they're building and their vision for it Kevan's response: Admits he feels imposter syndrome around being called an "entrepreneur" Laughs that it's technically true but still feels strange Describes Bonfire as partly a traditional branding agency They work with early-stage startups Help with brand strategy, positioning, messaging, and differentiation. But says the heart of their work is much deeper "We create spaces for people to explore what a fulfilling life looks like – one that includes work, but isn't defined by it." Their own careers inspired this – jobs that paid well but felt empty, or jobs that felt good but didn't pay the bills Bonfire became their way to build something more meaningful A space to have these conversations themselves And to invite others into it This includes community, retreats, and nontraditional formats Jokes that the agency side is a Trojan horse – a vehicle to fund the work they truly care about Shannon adds: They're agnostic about what Bonfire "does" Could be a branding agency, publishing house, even an ice cream shop "Money is just gas in the engine." The larger goal is creating spaces for people to explore their relationship to work Especially for those in transition, searching for meaning, or redefining success Robin reflects on their unusual path Notes most marketers who start agencies chase awards and fame But Shannon and Kevan built Bonfire around what they wished existed Recalls their past experiences Kevan's path from running a publication (later sold to Vox) to Buffer and then Oyster Shannon's shared time with him at Oyster Mentions their recent milestone – Bonfire's first live retreat in France 13 participants, including them Held in a rented castle For a two-year-old business, he calls it ambitious and impressive Asks: "How did it go? What did people get out of it?" Shannon on the retreat Laughs that they're still processing what it was They had a vibe in mind – but not a fixed structure One participant described it as "a wellness retreat for marketers" Not wrong – but also not quite right Attendees came from tech and non-tech backgrounds The focus: exploring people's most meaningful relationship to work Who you are when you're not at your desk How to bring that awareness back to real life — beyond castles and catered meals People came at it from different angles Some felt misaligned with their work Others were looking for something new Everyone was at a crossroads in their career Kevan on the space they built The retreat encouraged radical honesty People shared things like: "I have this job because I crave approval." "I care about money as a status symbol." "I hate what I do, but I don't know what else I'd be good at." They didn't force vulnerability, but wanted to make it safe if people chose it They thought deeply about values – what needed to be true for that kind of trust Personally, Kevan says the experience shifted his identity From "marketer" to something else – maybe "producer," maybe "creator" The retreat made him realize how many paths are possible "Now I just want to do more of this." Robin notes there are "so many threads to pull on" Brings up family business and partnerships Shares his own experience growing up in his dad's small business Talks about lessons from Robin's Cafe and the challenges of partnerships Says he's fascinated by co-founder dynamics – both powerful and tricky Asks how Shannon and Kevan's working relationship works What it was like at Oyster Why they decided to start Bonfire together And how it's evolved after the retreat Kevan on their beginnings He hired Shannon at Oyster – she was Editorial Director, he was SVP of Marketing Worked together for about a year and a half Knew early on that something clicked Shared values Similar worldview Trusted each other When Oyster ended, partnering up felt natural – "Let's figure out what's next, together." Robin observes their groundedness Says they both seem stable and mature, which likely helps the partnership Jokes about his own chaos running Robin's Café – late nights, leftover wine, cold quinoa Asks Shannon directly: "Do you still follow Kevan's lead?" Shannon's laughs and agrees they're both very regulated people But adds that it comes from learned coping mechanisms Says they've both developed pro-social ways to handle stress People-pleasing Overachievement Perfectionism Intellectualizing feelings instead of expressing them "Those are coping mechanisms too," she notes, "but at least they keep us calm when we talk." Building Trust and Partnership (14:54–23:15) Shannon says both she and Kevan have done deep personal work. Therapy, reflection, and self-inquiry are part of their toolkit. That helps them handle a relationship that's both intimate and challenging. They know their own baggage. They try not to take the other person's reactions personally. It doesn't always work—but they trust they'll work through conflict. When they started Bonfire: They agreed the business world is unpredictable. So they made a pinky swear: Friends first, business second. The friendship is the real priority. When conflict comes up, they ask: "Is this really life or death—or are we just forgetting what matters?" Shannon goes back to the question and clarifies  Says they lead in different ways. Each has their "zone of genius." They depend on each other's strengths. It's not leader and follower – it's mutual reliance. Shannon explains: Kevan's great at momentum: He moves things forward and ships projects fast. Shannon tends to be more perfectionist: Wants things to be fully formed before releasing. Kevan adds they talk often about "rally and rest." Kevan rallies, he thrives on pressure and urgency. Shannon rests, she values slowing down and reflection. Together, that creates a healthy rhythm.  Robin notes lingering habits Wonders if any "hangovers" from their Oyster days remain. Kevan reflects  At first, he hesitated to show weakness. Coming from a manager role, vulnerability felt risky. Shannon quickly saw through it. He realized openness was essential, not optional. Says their friendship and business both rely on honesty. Robin agrees and says he wouldn't discourage co-founders—it's just a big decision. Like choosing a spouse, it shapes your life for years. Notes he's never met with one of them without the other. "That says something," he adds. Their partnership clearly works—even if it takes twice the time. Rethinking Marketing (23:19) Kevan's light moment: Asks if Robin's comment about their teamwork was feedback for them. Robin's observation  Notes how in sync Shannon and Kevan are. Emails one, gets a reply CC'd with the other. Says the tempo of Bonfire feels like their collaboration itself. Wonders what that rhythm feels like internally. Kevan's response  Says it's partly intentional, partly habit. They genuinely enjoy working together. Adds they don't chase traditional agency milestones. No interest in Ad Age lists or Cannes awards. Their goal: have fun and make meaningful work. Robin pivots to the state of marketing (24:04) Mentions the shift from Madison Avenue's glory days to today's tech-driven world. Refers to Mad Men and the "growth at all costs" startup era. Notes how AI and tech are changing how people see their role in work and life. Kevan's background  Came from startups, not agencies. Learned through doing, not an MBA. Immersed in books like Hypergrowth and Traction. Took Reforge courses—knows the mechanics of scaling. Before that, worked as a journalist. Gained curiosity and calm under pressure, but also urgency. Admits startup life taught him both good and bad habits. Robin notes  Neither lives the Madison Avenue life. Kevan's in Boise. Shannon's in France. Shannon's background Started in theater – behind the scenes as a dramaturg and producer. Learned how to shape emotion and tell stories. Transitioned into brand strategy in New York. Worked at a top agency, Siegel+Gale. Helped global B2B and B2C clients define mission, values, and design. Competed with big names like Interbrand and Pentagram. Later moved in-house at tech startups. Saw how B2B marketing often tries to "act cool" like B2C. Learned to translate creative ideas into language that convinces CFOs. Says her role often meant selling authentic storytelling to risk-averse execs. Admits she joined marketing out of necessity. "I was 27, broke in New York, and needed a parking spot for my storytelling skills." Robin connects the dots  Notes how Silicon Valley's "growth" culture mirrors old ad-world burnout. Growth at all costs. Not much room for creative autonomy. Adds most big agencies are now owned by holding companies. The original Madison Avenue independence is nearly gone. Robin's reflection  Mentions how AI-generated content is changing video and storytelling. Grateful his clients still value human connection. Asks how Bonfire helps brands tell authentic stories now that the old model is fading. Kevan's take  Says people now care less about "moments" and more about audiences. It's not about one viral hit—it's about building consistency. Brands need to stand for something, and keep showing up. People want that outcome, even if they don't want the hard work behind it. Shannon adds Notes rising skepticism among audiences. Most content people see isn't from who they follow, it's ads and algorithms. Consumers are subconsciously filtering out the noise. Says that's why human storytelling matters more than ever. People crave knowing a real person is behind the message. AI can mimic tone but not authenticity. Adds it's hard to convince some clients of that. Authentic work isn't fast or easily measured. It requires belief in the process and a value system to match. That's tough when your client's investors only want quick returns. Robin agrees  "Look at people's incentives and I'll tell you who they are." Shannon continues Wonders where their responsibility ends. Should they convince people of their values? Or just do the work and let the right clients come? Kevan says they've found a sweet spot with current clients. Mostly bootstrapped founders. Work with them long-term instead of one-off projects. Says that's the recipe that fits Bonfire's values and actually works. The Quarter Analogy (35:36) Robin quotes BJ Fogg: "Don't try to persuade people of your worldview. Look for people who already want what you can teach, and just show them how." He compares arguing with people who don't align to "an acrobat arguing with gravity – gravity will win 100% of the time." The key: harness momentum instead of fighting resistance. Even a small, aligned audience is better than chasing everyone. Kevan shares Bonfire's failed experiment with outbound sales: They tried reaching out to recently funded AI companies. "It got us nowhere," he admits. That experience reminded him how much old startup habits – growth at all costs, scale fast – still shape thinking. "I thought success meant getting as big as possible, as fast as possible. That meant doing outbound, even if it felt inauthentic." But that mindset just added pressure. Realizing there were other ways to grow – slower, more intentional – was a relief. Now they've stopped outbound entirely. Focused instead on aligned clients who find them naturally. Robin connects it to a MrBeast quote. "If I'm not ashamed of the video I put out last week, I'm not growing fast enough." He says he doesn't love the "shame" part but relates to the evolution mindset – Looking back at work from six months ago and thinking, I'd do that differently now. Growth as a visible, measurable journey. Robin shifts to storytelling frameworks: Mentions Kevan and Shannon's analogies about storytelling and asks about "the quarter analogy." Kevan explains the "quarter" story: A professor holds up two quarters: "Sell me the one on the right." No one can – until someone says, "I'll dip it in Marilyn Monroe's purse." That coin now has emotional and cultural value. Marketing can be the same – alchemy that turns something ordinary into something meaningful. Robin builds on that: You can tell stories about a coin's history – "Lincoln touched it," etc. But Kevan's version is different: adding new meaning in the present. "How do you imbue something with value now that makes it matter later?" Shannon's take: It's about values and belonging. "Every story implicitly says: believe this." That belief also says: we don't believe that – defining who's in your tribe. Humans crave that – community, validation, connection. That belonging is intangible but real. "Try selling that to a CFO who just wants ROI. Impossible — but it's real." Kevan adds: Values are one piece – authenticity is another. Some brands already have a genuine story; others want to create one. "We get asked to dip AI companies into Marilyn Monroe's purse," he jokes. The real work is uncovering what's true or helping brands rediscover it. The challenge: telling that story consistently and believably. Robin mentions Shannon's storytelling framework of three parts – Purpose → Story frameworks → Touch points. Shannon breaks it down: Clients usually come in with half-baked "mission" or "vision" statements. She uses Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" model: Combine a cultural tension (what's happening in the world) with your brand's best self. Then fill in the blank: "We believe the world would be a better place if…" That single sentence surfaces a company's "why us" and "why now." It's dramaturgy, really — same question as in theater: "Why this play now?" "Why us?" Bonfire's own version (in progress): "We believe the world would be a better place if people and brands had more room to explore their creativity." Kevan adds: it's evolving, like them. Robin relates it back to his own story: After selling Robin's Café, he started Zander Media to tell human stories. He wanted to document real connections — "the barista-customer relationships, the neighborhood changing." That became his north star: storytelling as a tool for change and human connection. "I don't care about video," he says. "I care about storytelling, helping people become more of who they want to be." Kevan closes the loop: A good purpose statement is expansive. It can hold video, podcasts, even a publishing house. "Maybe tomorrow it's something else. That's the beauty — it allows room to grow." Against the Broetry (49:01) Kevan reflects on transparency and values at Bonfire He and Robin came from Buffer, a company known for radical transparency — posting salaries, growth numbers, everything. Says that while Bonfire isn't as extreme about it, the spirit is the same. "It just comes naturally to invite people in." Their openness isn't a tactic – it's aligned with their values and mission. They want to create space for people to explore – new ideas, new ways of working, more fulfilling lives. Sharing their journey publicly felt like the obvious, authentic thing to do. "It wasn't even a conversation – just who we are." Shannon jumps in with a critique of business culture online Says there's so much terrible advice about "how to build a business." Compliments Robin for cutting through the noise – being honest through Snafu and his newsletter. "You're trying to be real about what selling feels like and what it says about you." Calls out the "rise and grind" nonsense dominating LinkedIn: "Wake up at 4 a.m., protein shake at 4:10, three-hour workout…" Robin laughs – "I'll take the three-hour workout, but I'll pass on the protein shake." Shannon and Kevan call it "broetry" The overblown, performative business storytelling on social media. "I went on my honeymoon and here's what I learned about B2B sales." Their goal with building in public is the opposite: To admit mistakes. To share pivots and moments of doubt. To remind people that everyone is figuring it out. "But the system rewards the opposite – gatekeeping, pretending, keeping up the facade." Shannon says she has "no patience for it." She traces that belief back to a story from college Producer Paula Wagner once told her class: "Here's the secret: nobody knows anything." That line stuck with her. Gave her permission to question authority. To show up confidently even when others pretend to know more. After years of watching powerful men "fail upward," she realized: "The emperor has no clothes." So she might as well take up space too. Transparency, for her, is a form of connection and courage – "When people raise their eyes from their desks and actually meet each other, that's power." Robin thanks Shannon for the kind words about Snafu. Says their work naturally attracts people who want that kind of realness. Then pivots to a closing question: "If you had one piece of advice for founders – about storytelling or business building – what would it be?" Kevan's advice: "Look beyond what's around you." Inspiration doesn't have to come from your industry. Learn from other fields, other stories, other worlds. It builds curiosity, empathy, and creativity. Robin sums it up: "Get out of your silos." Shannon's advice: "Make the thing you actually want to see." Too many founders copy what's trendy or "smart." Ask instead: What would I genuinely love to consume? Remember your audience is human, like you. And remember, building a business is a privilege. You get to create a small world that reflects your values. You get to hire people, pay them, shape a culture. "That's so cool, and it should make you feel powerful." With that power comes responsibility. "Everyone says it's about making the most money. But what if the goal was to make the coolest world possible, for as many people as possible?" Where to find Kevan and Shannon (57:16) Points listeners to aroundthebonfire.com/experiences. That's where they host their retreats. Next one is April 2026. "We'd love to see you there."   Companies/Organizations Bonfire Buffer Oyster Vox Zander Media Siegel+Gale Interbrand Pentagram Reforge Robin's Café Books / Frameworks / Theories Traction BJ Fogg's behavioral model Ogilvy's "Big Ideal" Purpose → Story Frameworks → Touch Point People Paula Wagner BJ Fogg MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson) David Ogilvy Newsletters Snafu Kevan's previous publication  

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Miki Johnson – coach, facilitator, and co-founder of Job Portraits, a creative studio that helped companies tell honest stories about their work and culture. Today, Miki leads Leading By Example, where she supports leaders and teams through moments of change – whether that's a career shift, new parenthood, or redefining purpose. We talk about how to navigate transition with awareness, why enjoying change takes practice, and what it means to lead with authenticity in uncertain times. Miki shares lessons from a decade of coaching and storytelling – from building human-centered workplaces to bringing more body and emotion into leadership. We also explore creativity in the age of AI, and how technology can either deepen or disconnect us from what makes us human. And if you're interested in these kinds of conversations, we'll be diving even deeper into the intersection of leadership, creativity, and AI at Responsive Conference 2026. If you're interested, get your tickets here! https://www.responsiveconference.com/  __________________________________________________________________________________________ 00:00 Start 01:20 Miki's Background and Reservations about AI Miki hasn't used AI and has “very serious reservations.” She's not anti-AI – just cautious and curious. Her mindset is about “holding paradox”, believing two opposing things can both be true. Her background shapes that approach. She started as a journalist, later ran her own businesses, and now works as a leadership coach. Early in her career, she watched digital technology upend media and photography – industries “blown apart” by change. When she joined a 2008 startup building editable websites for photographers, it was exciting but also unsettling. She saw innovation create progress and loss at the same time. Now in her 40s with two sons, her focus has shifted. She worries less about the tools and more about what they do to people's attention, empathy, and connection – and even democracy. Her concern is how to raise kids and stay human in a distracted world. Robin shares her concerns but takes a different approach. He notes that change now happens “day to day,” not decade to decade. He looks at technology through systems, questioning whether pre-internet institutions can survive. “Maybe the Constitution was revolutionary,” he says, “but it's out of date for the world we live in.” He calls himself a “relentless optimist,” believing in democracy and adaptability, but aware both could fail without reform. Both worry deeply about what technology is doing to kids. Robin cites The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt and says, “I don't believe social media is good for children.” He and his fiancée plan to limit their kids' screen time, just as Miki already does. They see it as a responsibility: raising grounded kids in a digital world. Robin sees AI as even more transformative – and risky – than anything before. “If social media is bigger than the printing press,” he says, “AI is bigger than the wheel.” He's amazed by its potential but uneasy about who controls it. He doubts people like Sam Altman act in the public's best interest. His concern isn't about rejecting AI but about questioning who holds power over it. Their difference lies in how they handle uncertainty. Miki's instinct is restraint and reflection – question first, act later, protect empathy and connection. Robin's instinct is engagement with vigilance – learn, adapt, and reform systems rather than retreat. Miki focuses on the human and emotional. Robin focuses on the structural and systemic. Both agree technology is moving faster than people can process or regulate. Miki uses curiosity to slow down and stay human. Robin uses curiosity to move forward and adapt. Together, they represent two sides of the same challenge: protecting what's most human while building what's next. 10:05 Navigating the Tech Landscape Miki starts by describing how her perspective has been shaped by living in two very different worlds. She spent over a decade in the Bay Area, surrounded by tech and startups. She later moved back to her small hometown of Athens, Ohio—a progressive college town surrounded by more rural areas. She calls it “a very small Austin”, a blue dot in a red state. She loves it there and feels lucky to have returned home. Robin interrupts briefly to highlight her background. He reminds listeners that Miki and her husband, Jackson, co-founded an employer branding agency called Job Portraits in 2014, the same year they got married. Over eight years, they grew it to around 15 full-time employees and 20 steady contractors. They worked with major startups like DoorDash, Instacart, and Eventbrite when those companies were still small—under 200 employees. Before that, they had started another venture in Chicago during Uber's early expansion beyond San Francisco. Their co-working space was right next to Uber's local team setting up drivers, giving them a front-row seat to the tech boom. Robin points out that Miki isn't coming at this topic as a “layperson.” She deeply understands technology, startups, and how they affect people. Miki continues, explaining how that background informs how she sees AI adoption today. Her Bay Area friends are all-in on AI. Many have used it since its earliest days—because it's part of their jobs, or because they're building it themselves. Others are executives leading companies developing AI tools. She's been watching it unfold closely for years, even if she hasn't used it herself. From her position outside the tech bubble now, she can see two clear camps: Those immersed in AI, excited and moving fast. And those outside that world—more cautious, questioning what it means for real people and communities. Living between those worlds—the fast-paced tech culture and her slower, more grounded hometown—gives her a unique vantage point. She's connected enough to understand the innovation but distant enough to see its costs and consequences. 16:39 The Cost of AI Adoption Miki points out how strange it feels to people in tech that she hasn't used AI. In her Bay Area circles, the idea is almost unthinkable. Miki understands why it's shocking. It's mostly circumstance—her coaching work doesn't require AI. Unlike consultants who “all tell leaders how to use AI,” her work is based on real conversations, not digital tools. Her husband, Jackson, also works at a “zero-technology” K–12 school he helped create, so they both exist in rare, tech-free spaces. She admits that's partly luck, not moral superiority, just “tiny pockets of the economy” where avoiding AI is still possible. Robin responds with his own story about adopting new tools. He recalls running Robin's Café from 2016 to 2019, when most restaurants still used paper timesheets. He connected with two young founders who digitized timesheets, turning a simple idea into a company that later sold to a global conglomerate. By the time he sold his café, those founders had retired in their 20s. “I could still run a restaurant on paper,” he says, “but why would I, if digital is faster and easier?” He draws a parallel between tools over time—handwriting, typing, dictation. Each serves a purpose, but he still thinks best when writing by hand, then typing, then dictating. The point: progress adds options, not replacements. Miki distills his point: if a tool makes life easier, why not use it? Robin agrees, and uses his own writing practice as an example. He writes a 1,000-word weekly newsletter called Snafu. Every word is his, but he uses AI as an editor—to polish, not to create. He says, “I like how I think more clearly when I write regularly.” For him, writing is both communication and cognition—AI just helps him iterate faster. It's like having an instant editor instead of waiting a week for human feedback. He reminds his AI tools, “Don't write for me. Just help me think and improve.” When Miki asks why he's never had an editor, he explains that he has—but editors are expensive and slow. AI gives quick, affordable feedback when a human editor isn't available. Miki listens and reflects on the trade-offs. “These are the cost-benefit decisions we all make,” she says—small, constant choices about convenience and control. What unsettles her is how fast AI pushes that balance. She sees it as part of a long arc—from the printing press to now—but AI feels like an acceleration. It's “such a powerful technology moving so fast” that it's blowing the cover off how society adapts to change. Robin agrees: “It's just the latest version of the same story, since writing on cave walls.” 20:10 The Future of Human-AI Relationships Miki talks about the logical traps we've all started accepting over time. One of the biggest, she says, is believing that if something is cheaper, faster, or easier – it's automatically better. She pushes further: just because something is more efficient doesn't mean it's better than work. There are things you gain from working with humans that no machine can replicate, no matter how cheap or convenient it becomes. But we rarely stop to consider the real cost of trading that away. Miki says the reason we overlook those costs is capitalism. She's quick to clarify – she's not one of those people calling late-stage capitalism pure evil. Robin chimes in: “It's the best of a bunch of bad systems.” Miki agrees, but says capitalism still pushes a dangerous idea: It wants humans to behave like machines—predictable, tireless, cheap, and mistake-free. And over time, people have adapted to that pressure, becoming more mechanical just to survive within it. Now we've created a tool—AI—that might actually embody those machine-like ideals. Whether or not it reaches full human equivalence, it's close enough to expose something uncomfortable: We've built a human substitute that eliminates everything messy, emotional, and unpredictable about being human. Robin takes it a step further, saying half-jokingly that if humanity lasts long enough, our grandchildren might date robots. “Two generations from now,” he says, “is it socially acceptable—maybe even expected—that people have robot spouses?” He points out it's already starting—people are forming attachments to ChatGPT and similar AIs. Miki agrees, noting that it's already common for people under 25 to say they've had meaningful interactions with AI companions. Over 20% of them, she estimates, have already experienced this. That number will only grow. And yet, she says, we talk about these changes as if they're inevitable—like we don't have a choice. That's what frustrates her most: The narrative that AI “has to” take over—that it's unstoppable and universal—isn't natural evolution. It's a story deliberately crafted by those who build and profit from it. “Jackson's been reading the Hacker News comments for 15 years,” she adds, hinting at how deep and intentional those narratives run in the tech world. She pauses to explain what Hacker News is for anyone unfamiliar. It's one of the few online forums that's still thoughtful and well-curated. Miki says most people there are the ones who've been running and shaping the tech world for years—engineers, founders, product leaders. And if you've followed those conversations, she says, it's obvious that the people developing AI knew there would be pushback. “Because when you really stop and think about it,” she says, “it's kind of gross.” The technology is designed to replace humans—and eventually, to replace their jobs. And yet, almost no one is seriously talking about what happens when that becomes real. “I'm sorry,” she says, “but there's just something in me that says—dating a robot is bad for humanity. What is wrong with us?” Robin agrees. “I don't disagree,” he says. “It's just… different from human.” Miki admits she wrestles with that tension. “Every part of me says, don't call it bad or wrong—we have to make space for difference.” But still, something in her can't shake the feeling that this isn't progress—it's disconnection. Robin expands on that thought, saying he's not particularly religious, but he does see humanity as sacred. “There's something fundamental about the human soul,” he says. He gives examples: he has metal in his ankle from an old injury; some of his family members are alive only because of medical devices. Technology, in that sense, can extend or support human life. But the idea of replacing or merging humans with machines—of being subsumed by them—feels wrong. “It's not a world I want to live in,” he says plainly. He adds that maybe future generations will think differently. “Maybe our grandkids will look at us and say, ‘Okay boomer—you never used AI.'” 24:14 Practical Applications of AI in Daily Life Robin shares a story about a house he and his fiancée almost bought—one that had a redwood tree cut down just 10 feet from the foundation. The garage foundation was cracked, the chimney tilted—it was clear something was wrong. He'd already talked to arborists and contractors, but none could give a clear answer. So he turned to ChatGPT's Deep Research—a premium feature that allows for in-depth, multi-source research across the web. He paid $200 a month for unlimited access. Ran 15 deep research queries simultaneously. Generated about 250 pages of analysis on redwood tree roots and their long-term impact on foundations. He learned that if the roots are alive, they can keep growing and push the soil upward. If they're dead, they decompose, absorb and release water seasonally, and cause the soil to expand and contract. Over time, that movement creates air pockets under the house—tiny voids that could collapse during an earthquake. None of this, Robin says, came from any contractor, realtor, or arborist. “Even they said I'd have to dig out the roots to know for sure,” he recalls. Ultimately, they decided not to buy that house—entirely because of the data he got from ChatGPT. “To protect myself,” he says, “I want to use the tools I have.” He compares it to using a laser level before buying a home in earthquake country: “If I'll use that, why not use AI to explore what I don't know?” He even compares Deep Research to flipping through Encyclopedia Britannica as a kid—hours spent reading about dinosaurs “for no reason other than curiosity.” Robin continues, saying it's not that AI will replace humans—it's that people who use AI will replace those who don't. He references economist Tyler Cowen's Average Is Over (2012), which described how chess evolved in the early 2000s. Back then, computers couldn't beat elite players on their own—but a human + computer team could beat both humans and machines alone. “The best chess today,” Robin says, “is played by a human and computer together.” “There are a dozen directions I could go from there,” Miki says. But one idea stands out to her: We're going to have to choose, more and more often, between knowledge and relationships. What Robin did—turning to Deep Research—was choosing knowledge. Getting the right answer. Having more information. Making the smarter decision. But that comes at the cost of human connection. “I'm willing to bet,” she says, “that all the information you found came from humans originally.” Meaning: there were people who could have told him that—just not in that format. Her broader point: the more we optimize for efficiency and knowledge, the less we may rely on each other. 32:26 Choosing Relationships Over AI Robin points out that everything he learned from ChatGPT originally came from people. Miki agrees, but says her work is really about getting comfortable with uncertainty. She helps people build a relationship with the unknown instead of trying to control it. She mentions Robin's recent talk with author Simone Stolzoff, who's writing How to Not Know—a book she can't wait to read. She connects it to a bigger idea: how deeply we've inherited the Enlightenment mindset. “We're living at the height of ‘I think, therefore I am,'” she says. If that's your worldview, then of course AI feels natural. It fits the logic that more data and more knowledge are always better. But she's uneasy about what that mindset costs us. She worries about what's happening to human connection. “It's all connected,” she says—our isolation, mental health struggles, political polarization, even how we treat the planet. Every time we choose AI over another person, she sees it as part of that drift away from relationship. “I get why people use it,” she adds. “Capitalism doesn't leave most people much of a choice.” Still, she says, “Each time we pick AI over a human, that's a decision about the kind of world we're creating.” Her choice is simple: “I'm choosing relationships.” Robin gently pushes back. “I think that's a false dichotomy,” he says. He just hosted Responsive Conference—250 people gathered for human connection. “That's why I do this podcast,” he adds. “To sit down with people and talk, deeply.” He gives a personal example. When he bought his home, he spoke with hundreds of people—plumbers, electricians, roofers. “I'm the biggest advocate for human conversations,” he says. “So why not both? Why not use AI and connect with people?” To him, the real question is about how we use technology consciously. “If we stopped using AI because it's not human,” he asks, “should we stop using computers because handwriting is more authentic?” “Should we reject the printing press because it's not handwritten?” He's not advocating blind use—he's asking for mindful coexistence. It's also personal for him. His company relies on AI tools—from Adobe to video production. “AI is baked into everything we do,” he says. And he and his fiancée—a data scientist—often talk about what that means for their future family. “How do we raise kids in a world where screens and AI are everywhere?” Then he asks her directly: “What do you tell your clients? Treat me like one—how do you help people navigate this tension?” Miki smiles and shakes her head. “I don't tell people what to do,” she says. “I'm not an advisor, I'm a coach.” Her work is about helping people trust their own intuition. “Even when what they believe is contrarian,” she adds. She admits she's still learning herself. “My whole stance is: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.” She and her husband, Jackson, live by the idea of strong opinions, loosely held. She stays open—lets new conversations change her mind. “And they do,” she says. “Every talk like this shifts me a little.” She keeps seeking those exchanges—with parents, tech workers, friends—because everyone's trying to figure out the same thing: How do we live well with technology, without losing what makes us human? 37:16 The Amish Approach to Technology Miki reflects on how engineers are both building and being replaced by AI. She wants to understand the technology from every angle—how it works, how it affects people, and what choices it leaves us with. What worries her is the sense of inevitability around AI—especially in places like the Bay Area. “It's like no one's even met someone who doesn't use it,” she says. She knows it's embedded everywhere—Google searches, chatbots, everything online. But she doesn't use AI tools directly or build with them herself. “I don't even know the right terminology,” she admits with a laugh. Robin points out that every Google search now uses an LLM. Miki nods, saying her point isn't denial—it's about choice. “You can make different decisions,” she says. She admits she hasn't studied it deeply but brings up an analogy that helps her think about tech differently: the Amish. “I call myself kind of ‘AI Amish,'” she jokes. She explains her understanding of how the Amish handle new technology. They're not anti-tech; they're selective. They test and evaluate new tools to see if they align with their community's values. “They ask, does it build connection or not?” They don't just reject things—they integrate what fits. In her area of Ohio, she's seen Amish people now using electric bikes. “That's new since I was a kid,” she says. It helps them connect more with each other without harming the environment. They've also used solar power for years. It lets them stay energy independent without relying on outside systems that clash with their values. Robin agrees—it's thoughtful, not oppositional. “They're intentional about what strengthens community,” he says. Miki continues: What frustrates her is how AI's creators have spent the last decade building a narrative of inevitability. “They knew there would be resistance,” she says, “so they started saying, ‘It's just going to happen. Your jobs won't be taken by AI—they'll be taken by people who use it better than you.'” She finds that manipulative and misleading. Robin pushes back gently. “That's partly true—but only for now,” he says. He compares it to Uber and Lyft: at first, new jobs seemed to appear, but eventually drivers started being replaced by self-driving cars. Miki agrees. “Exactly. First it's people using AI, then it's AI replacing people,” she says. What disturbs her most is the blind trust people put in companies driven by profit. “They've proven over and over that's their motive,” she says. “Why believe their story about what's coming next?” She's empathetic, though—she knows why people don't push back. “We're stressed, broke, exhausted,” she says. “Our nervous systems are fried 24/7—especially under this administration.” “It's hard to think critically when you're just trying to survive.” And when everyone around you uses AI, it starts to feel mandatory. “People tell me, ‘Yeah, I know it's a problem—but I have to. Otherwise I'll lose my job.'” “Or, ‘I'd have bought the wrong house if I didn't use it.'” That “I have to” mindset, she says, is what scares her most. Robin relates with his own example. “That's how I felt with TikTok,” he says. He got hooked early on, staying up until 3 a.m. scrolling. After a few weeks, he deleted the app and never went back. “I probably lose some business by not being there,” he admits. “But I'd rather protect my focus and my sanity.” He admits he couldn't find a way to stay on the platform without it consuming him. “I wasn't able to build a system that removed me from that platform while still using that platform.” But he feels differently about other tools. For example, LinkedIn has been essential—especially for communicating with Responsive Conference attendees. “It was our primary method of communication for 2025,” he says. So he tries to choose “the lesser of two evils.” “TikTok's bad for my brain,” he says. “I'm not using it.” “But with LLMs, it's different.” When researching houses, he didn't feel forced into using them to “keep up.” To him, they're just another resource. “If encyclopedias are available, use them. If Wikipedia's available, use both. And if LLMs can help, use all three.” 41:45 The Pressure to Conform to Technology Miki challenges that logic. “When was the last time you opened an encyclopedia?” Robin pauses. “Seven years ago.” Miki laughs. “Exactly. It's a nice idea that we'll use all the tools—but humans don't actually do that.” We gravitate toward what's easiest. “If you check eBay, there are hundreds of encyclopedia sets for sale,” she says. “No one's using them.” Robin agrees but takes the idea in a new direction. “Sure—but just because something's easy doesn't mean it's good,” he says. He compares it to food: “It's easier to eat at McDonald's than cook at home,” he says. But easy choices often lead to long-term problems. He mentions obesity in the U.S. as a cautionary parallel. Some things are valuable because they're hard. “Getting in my cold plunge every morning isn't easy,” he says. “That's why I do it.” “Exercise never gets easy either—but that's the point.” He adds a personal note: “I grew up in the mountains. I love being at elevation, off-grid, away from electricity.” He could bring Starlink when he travels, but he chooses not to. Still, he's not trying to live as a total hermit. “I don't want to live 12 months a year at 10,000 feet with a wood stove and no one around.” “There's a balance.” Miki nods, “I think this is where we need to start separating what we can handle versus what kids can.” “We're privileged adults with fully formed brains,” she points out. “But it's different for children growing up inside this system.” Robin agrees and shifts the focus. Even though you don't give advice professionally,” he says, “I'll ask you to give it personally.” “You're raising kids in what might be the hardest time we've ever seen. What are you actually practicing at home?” 45:30 Raising Children in a Tech-Driven World Robin reflects on how education has shifted since their grandparents' time Mentions “Alpha Schools” — where AI helps kids learn basic skills fast (reading, writing, math) Human coaches spend the rest of the time building life skills Says this model makes sense: Memorizing times tables isn't useful anymore He only learned to love math because his dad taught him algebra personally — acted like a coach Asks Miki what she thinks about AI and kids — and what advice she'd give him as a future parent Miki's first response — humility and boundaries “First off, I never want to give parents advice.” Everyone's doing their best with limited info and energy Her kids are still young — not yet at the “phone or social media” stage So she doesn't pretend to have all the answers Her personal wish vs. what's realistic Ideal world: She wishes there were a global law banning kids from using AI or social media until age 18 Thinks it would genuinely be better for humanity References The Anxious Generation Says there's growing causal evidence, not just correlation, linking social media to mental health issues Mentions its impact on children's nervous systems and worldview It wires them for defense rather than discovery Real world: One parent can't fight this alone — it's a collective action problem You need communities of parents who agree on shared rules Example: schools that commit to being zero-technology zones Parents and kids agree on: What ages tech is allowed Time limits Common standards Practical ideas they're exploring Families turning back to landlines Miki says they got one recently Not an actual landline — they use a SIM adapter and an old rotary phone Kids use it to call grandparents Her partner Jackson is working on a bigger vision: Building a city around a school Goal: design entire communities that share thoughtful tech boundaries Robin relates it to his own childhood Points out the same collective issue — “my nephews are preteens” It's one thing for parents to limit screen time But if every other kid has access, that limit won't hold Shares his own experience: No TV or video games growing up So he just went to neighbors' houses to play — human nature finds a way Says individual family decisions don't solve the broader problem Miki agrees — and expands the concern Says the real issue is what kids aren't learning Their generation had “practice time” in real-world social interactions Learned what jokes land and which ones hurt Learned how to disagree, apologize, or flirt respectfully Learned by trial and error — through millions of small moments With social media and AI replacing those interactions: Kids lose those chances entirely Results she's seeing: More kids isolating themselves Many afraid to take social or emotional risks Fewer kids dating or engaging in real-life relationships Analogy — why AI can stunt development “Using AI to write essays,” she says, “is like taking a forklift to the gym.” Sure, you lift more weight — but you're not getting stronger Warns this is already visible in workplaces: Companies laying off junior engineers AI handles the entry-level work But in 5 years, there'll be no trained juniors left to replace seniors Concludes that where AI goes next “is anybody's guess” — but it must be used with intention 54:12 Where to Find Miki Invites others to connect Mentions her website: leadingbyexample.life Visitors can book 30-minute conversations directly on her calendar Says she's genuinely open to discussing this topic with anyone interested  

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller. We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else. Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he's faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that's truly his. We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way. He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries. We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life. Bobby's story shows that creativity isn't about perfection – it's about showing up and being authentic. He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others. This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter. 00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling Bobby on storytelling Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure. Drama is about “what you're both keeping back and what you're waiting to surprise your audience with.” Steve Jobs anecdote Jobs builds suspense with “one more thing.” On stage, he asks: “Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?” (the tiny jeans pocket). Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out “the world's smallest iPod and people flip out.” Why it works: audience knows the pocket's size → no need to explain iPod's dimensions. Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff. Bobby's takeaway: “That's really good storytelling, man. It's really good storytelling.” “People call him a salesperson. Like he's a great salesman. He's a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you're pulling people in. That's the key.” Robin on storytelling & AI His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups. Says video itself doesn't matter as much as impact: “What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion.” Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: “The value of sitting at Homer's feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away.” Bobby on storytelling & art Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect. Sees it like art: “Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to.” Calls art his “oldest friend, who I've probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform.” Believes everyone can create: “Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world.” Goal of art/storytelling: help others “find some relationship to the world around them through it.” 06:01 Art as a Form of Expression Robin's setup Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – “perfect intersection” of art + business. Distinguishes museum art (“old, on walls”) from art that's “around us all the time.” Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, “that is great art in the form of good communication.” Asks: why do we separate “high” art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)? Art is everywhere Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness: “You're looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn't just appear. You're just paying attention.” Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it's all around you. Lesson from a design teacher: “If it wasn't dug up or grown, it's designed.” Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art. Pushes back on the museum-only view of art: “Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There's art everywhere.” Examples of art woven into daily life: Clothing, headphones, glasses Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints Freeway dividers, lamps Even tools: “Go get a hammer. The handle's probably painted a color. It may be a penny's worth of art, but it's art, man.” Definition of art: “All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something.” Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling. Perspective shift: Once you adjust your lens, “there's a lot of art out there. It's really, really amazing.” 12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art Bobby compares practice to a relationship: “It's like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst.” Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting: Wants to be fed, but often ignored. Always ready to show up again. “It's like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out.” Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder. Bobby: “It probably is… but I love it. If there's a napkin, I'll doodle.” Art as a shared childhood language: Everyone starts out drawing: “Have you ever met an adult who didn't draw as a kid? Everyone says yes.” Drawing is how children interpret the world. Family encouragement made “the artist” part of his identity. Becoming a writer: Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called “Finishing the Novel.” Professor's advice: “You're all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers' group.” Writers' group provided accountability → led to a first draft. Draft → literary agent → graphic novel → published book. “Flash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out… I guess I'm an author.” Lessons on growth and identity: Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition. Progress isn't linear: “The road is not a straight line.” Common trap: believing “I should have been there already.” Bobby reframes time: “You can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it.” Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving. 18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel. Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before. Thought to himself: “If I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?” Origin spark: a daydream while driving. “What if an animal just jumped out in front of me?” What if it leapt into the air and flew away? “What if that animal was a reindeer?” Question: what would a reindeer be doing here? That “what if” became the seed of the story. Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea. Loves holiday stories and movies → wanted to write one. Describes storytelling as crafting from a “pantry of experiences.” Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life. Details of the novel: Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado. Bobby: “I was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer — spoiler alert.” Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative. Goal as an author: To blend reality with imagination. To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own. 20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling Robin asks about storytelling: what's similar between Steve Jobs' two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel? Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same. Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in. Events and books both follow arcs: setup → build → climax → resolution. “He doesn't start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That's the climax.” Storytelling has shape across mediums: Characters introduced → audience grows to care → surprises and turns → payoffs. Example: Steve Jobs' coin pocket reveal → set up, then payoff. In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds. Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you're still using the same fundamentals of music. Robin shifts to Bobby's background as a visual storyteller. As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones. Robin compares Bobby's graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt. Robin: making comics doesn't have to be like “my mother's artwork she slaved over for years.” It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story. Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story. Bobby's advice: Many people don't think visual storytelling is possible for them. Shares personal story: On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book. It took him 25 years to actually write one. Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn't look like Marvel or X-Men. Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome Realization: it's not about imitating Spider-Man — it's about drawing in your own style. Art is your opinion expressed visually. Stick figures can work if they serve the story. Doesn't have to be polished airbrushed paintings. How his graphic novel came about: Originally wrote the story as a regular novel. Sent to publishers with just a few illustrations. All said no — except one, who said: “I love the illustrations. Would you consider making this a graphic novel?” Bobby: “All right.” Treated it as an invitation. Decided to draw in his own style. Practical process: Took all the dialogue he had already written. Turned descriptions into drawings. Book was already written in close third person, without inner thoughts → made translation easier. First pass: dialogue in speech bubbles, description drawn. Realized: “I guess this works.” Takeaway: You don't have to start by drawing an entire book from scratch. You can begin with writing, then translate description into visuals.   28:10 Resilience in the Face of Rejection Robin points out the sheer amount of work Bobby went through: writing a book, getting rejected repeatedly, reinventing it with illustrations, then turning it into a graphic novel only to be rejected again. Robin: “It's almost the literal definition of courage… getting back up and trying again.” Notes that outsiders might think: “30-year Pixar animator, easy for you.” But the reality was rejection after rejection. Asks: how do you come back? What is your relationship with practice that allows you to face no 50 times and keep going? Bobby on optimism and imagination: “I'm lucky that I happen to be what myself and other people probably call an optimistic person.” Describes himself as “an optimist with a vivid imagination” → always assuming, “Yeah, we'll figure this out.” Loves being middle-aged because experience gives perspective: you've seen enough to know you can recover. The arc of a career/life: Beginning stage: fearless. “I can do anything because I cannot die.” Willing to leap into anything: start a company, go broke, jump off a cliff → “We'll figure it out.” Middle stage: awareness of consequences. Relationships, responsibilities, failures and successes → “I don't know if I should do anything.” Weight of awareness can freeze you. Later stage: resilience. “I'm still here, I figured it out.” Confidence comes not from avoiding mistakes but from knowing: “I can recover from anything.” Personal examples: Bobby's two kids are both in college. He reflects on their application process: multiple schools, multiple options. His own experience was the opposite: Applied to only one school (CalArts). Barely got in. Supported by his single mother, who let him pursue art school. That early challenge taught him persistence and how to “figure it out.” The practice of persistence: Life and career filled with moments of trial and error. “That didn't work. Okay, maybe this. Well, that didn't work. Maybe this.” Sometimes progress feels like moving backwards before going forward again. Analogy: like a Roomba. Hits an obstacle → bounces, changes direction, keeps moving. “I don't know that equating myself to a robot vacuum is the best thing, but it eventually gets the whole job done.” 33:33 Storytelling Frameworks and Structures Bobby on classical story structure in his book: Book follows a traditional arc: opening, inciting incident (

Hi everyone, welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. This episode is a little different - instead of me hosting, I was actually the guest on my good friend Josh Levine's podcast, Great Mondays Radio. Josh and I went deep on a topic I care about a lot: why soft skills are the hard currency of the future. We explored what really sets humans apart in an age of rapid innovation, the rise of AI, and all the talk about machines taking over jobs. We dug into the skills that can't be automated, the value we bring that AI can never replicate, and why those human capabilities will only matter more in the years ahead. We also touched on leadership, creativity, and how we can all prepare ourselves - and our organizations - for the changes still to come. Please take a moment to subscribe to Josh's show, Great Mondays Radio. It would mean a lot to both of us, and I know you'll enjoy the incredible conversations he's hosting. I'm also excited that Josh will be joining us at Responsive Conference 2025 as a guest - so this won't be the last time you hear from him in our orbit.

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I'm joined by Simone Stolzoff – author of The Good Enough Job and the upcoming How to Not Know – and our opening keynote speaker at Responsive Conference 2025. We explore what it means to have an identity beyond your job title, why rest is essential for high performance, and how ritual and community offer grounding in an age of uncertainty. Simone shares how Judaism and Shabbat have shaped his views on balance, the role of “guardrails” over boundaries, and how we can build more durable lives – personally and professionally. We talk about the future of religion, the risks and opportunities of AI, and why books still matter even in a tech-saturated world. Simone also offers practical writing advice, previews his next book, and explains why embracing uncertainty may be the most valuable skill of all. Simone will be speaking live at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18, and I can't wait for you to hear more. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here.   Start (00:00) Identity Beyond Titles (01:07.414) What identities do you hold that aren't listed on your LinkedIn? Simone's Answer: Ultimate frisbee player – “the entirety of my adult life” Aspiring salsa dancer – taking intro classes with his wife Former spoken word poet – “It was the most important thing to me when I was 19 years old.” New father – navigating life with a five-month-old "I encourage people to ask: what do you like to do, as opposed to what do you do?" Shabbat as a Sanctuary in Time (01:58.831) Robin references Simone's TED Talk, focusing on Shabbat as a metaphor for boundary-setting and presence. Simone expands: Shabbat offers a weekly rhythm to separate work from rest. Emphasizes the idea of "sacred time" and intentional disconnection from screens. Shabbat is a “sanctuary in time,” paralleling physical sanctuaries like churches or synagogues. Relates this to work-life balance, noting that intentions alone aren't enough – infrastructure is needed. "We have intentions… but what actually leads to balance is structural barriers." Boundaries vs. Guardrails (04:44.32) Cites Anne Helen Petersen's metaphor: Boundaries = painted lane lines Guardrails = physical barriers that actually keep you on the road There are calls for more guardrails (structural protections) in modern life. Examples: Airplane mode during playtime with his kid Attending yoga or activities where work can't creep in "Individually imposed boundaries often break down when the pressures of capitalism creep in." Religion, Ritual & Community (06:48.57) Robin asks how Judaism has shaped Simone's thinking around work and life. Simone reflects: Religion offers a “container” with a different value system than capitalism. As organized religion declined, people turned to work for identity, meaning, and community. Religion can offer rituals to process uncertainty — e.g., mourning rituals like sitting shiva. Religious or community spaces offer contrast: they don't care about your career success. "Religion is sort of like a container… with a value system that isn't just about growth charts." "It can be refreshing to say: Day 1, do this. Day 7, go for a walk." Personal journey: Simone reconnected with Judaism in his 30s as he built his own family. Once, went out of obligation, then rejected it, and now see beauty in ritual and intergenerational wisdom. The Future of Religion & Community (09:12.454) Robin theorizes a future rise in spiritual and communal gatherings: Predicts new spiritual movements or evolutions of old ones Notes a hunger for meaningful in-person connection, especially post-AI and amid tech saturation "There's a hunger... as AI and screens define how we relate, people want to gather in person." "I don't tend to make predictions, but I think this one's inevitable." Simone agrees... but offers data as contrast: Cites the decline in religious affiliation in the U.S. 1950s: 3–4% unaffiliated Today: Nearly 1 in 3 identify as “Nones” (no religion) Notes reasons: Rising wealth tends to increase secularism The internet creates alternate identity spaces "I do believe there is inevitability in the growth [of spirituality]... But the data points the opposite way." Simone reflects on the factors behind declining religious affiliation: Doubt now builds community – the internet has enabled people to connect around leaving religion as much as practicing it. Political entanglement – many young Americans, especially, are alienated by the perceived overlap between right-wing politics and Christianity. Yet despite this secular trend, the need for meaning, ritual, and purpose remains universal. “There still is this fundamental need to find meaning, to find purpose, to find ritual… even if it's not in the forms we're used to.” A Church in the Mission (13:07.182) Robin shares a formative experience from 2016: That year, he launched both Robin's Café and the first Responsive Conference. When he walked into the theater space that would become his café, he encountered a young, diverse Christian revival group – live music, dancing, and energetic worship happening in a Mission District theater. This juxtaposition – a traditional spiritual gathering inside a modern, “hip” venue – left a lasting impression. “It felt like a revival meeting in the South… except it was full of people my age and younger, partying on a Saturday morning – and it just happened to be church.” You Are More Than Your Work (14:51.182) Robin segues into the idea of multiple identities: He recalls how reading The 4-Hour Work Week helped him embrace not defining himself solely by his entrepreneurial work. Even on tough days running a business, movement and fitness have been a grounding force – something he does daily, independent of career performance. Quotes from Simone's TED Talk: “Some people do what they love for work; others work so they can do what they love. Neither is more noble.” Robin asks Simone to share the origin of this line and how it connects to the poet Anis Mojgani. Simone recounts a pivotal conversation during college: As a poetry and economics double major, he was wrestling with career path anxiety. He interviewed his favorite poet, Anis Mojgani, asking: “Do you believe in the idea, ‘Do what you love and never work a day in your life'?” Mojgani's response: “Some people do what they love for work. Others do what they have to so they can do what they love when they're not working. Neither is more noble.” This countered Simone's expectations and left a deep impression. He highlights two cases for cultivating a broader identity beyond work: Business Case: High performance requires rest. People with “greater self-complexity” — more identities outside of work — are more creative, more resilient, and more emotionally stable. Moral Case: Investing in other parts of ourselves makes us better citizens, community members, and humans. Singular identity (especially career-based) is fragile and susceptible to collapse — e.g., pandemic layoffs. Solely work-based identity also sets unrealistically high expectations that can lead to disappointment. “You're balancing on a very narrow platform… You're susceptible to a large gust of wind.” Robin reflects on how the Responsive Manifesto intentionally avoids prescribing one path: It's not anti-work or anti-grind. Recognizes that sometimes hard work is necessary, especially in entrepreneurship. Shares how his friend's newsletter, Just Go Grind, embraces the idea that seasons of hustle are sometimes required. “Everyone figuring out their own boundaries is actually the goal.” Work Isn't Good or Bad – It's Complex (18:34.436) Simone adds that society tends to polarize the narrative around work: Some say “burn it all down”, that work is evil. Others say, “Do what you love, or it's not worth doing.” His book The Good Enough Job argues for a middle way: It's not hustle propaganda. It's not a slacker's manifesto. It's about recognizing that we spend a huge portion of our lives working, so it matters how we approach it, but also recognizing we're more than just our jobs. He introduces the concept of temporal balance: “There's a natural seasonality to work.” Sometimes, long hours are necessary (e.g., startup mode, sales targets). But it should be a season, not a permanent lifestyle. What's the Role of Books in the Age of AI? (22:41.507) Robin poses a forward-looking question: In an age when AI can summarize, synthesize, and generate information rapidly, what's the role of books? Especially nonfiction, where facts are easier to reproduce. Simone responds with both uncertainty and hope: Human storytelling as a moat: His work relies on reporting, profiling, and character studies — something LLMs can't yet replicate with nuance. He doesn't know how long this will remain defensible, but will continue to lean into it. Books are more than information: Books have utility beyond facts: they are entertainment, physical objects, and cultural symbols. Quotes the vibe of being surrounded by books: there's even an untranslatable word (possibly German or Japanese) about the comfort of unread books. A vinyl-record future: Books may become more niche, collectible, or artisanal, similar to vinyl. But they still hold society's most well-formed, deeply considered ideas. The human touch still matters: A typed note that looks handwritten isn't the same as a note that is handwritten. People will crave authenticity and human creation, especially in a tech-saturated world. “You can appreciate when something has a level of human touch, especially in an increasingly tech-powered world.” He closes with a self-aware reflection: “I don't claim to know whether my career will still exist in five years… which is why I picked this topic for my second book.” “Created by Humans” (25:49.549) Robin references a conversation with Bree Groff, who imagined a world where creative work carries a “Created by Human” tag, like organic food labeling. “I think we'll see that [kind of labeling] in the next few decades – maybe even in the next few years.” As AI-generated content floods the market, human-made work may soon carry new cultural cachet. Simone shares a turning point: after submitting an op-ed to The New York Times, his editor flagged a bad metaphor. En route to a bachelor party, he opened ChatGPT, asked for new metaphors, chose one, and it made the print edition the next day. “Maybe I've broken some law about journalism ethics... but that was the moment where I was like: whoa. This sh*t is crazy.” The Home-Buying Crash Course Powered by AI (27:57) Robin's breakthrough came while navigating the chaos of buying a house. He used ChatGPT to upskill rapidly: Structural questions (e.g., redwood roots and foundation risk) Zoning and legal research Negotiation tactics “The rate of learning I was able to create because of these tools was 10 to 100 times faster than what I could've done previously.” How to Live Without Knowing (29:41.498) Simone previews his next book, How to Not Know, a field guide for navigating uncertainty. In an age of instant answers, our tolerance for the unknown is shrinking, while uncertainty itself is growing. “We're trying to find clarity where there is none. My hope is that the book offers tools to live in that space.” The “Three Horsemen of Delusion”: Comfort – we crave the ease of certainty. Hubris – we assume we know more than we do. Control – we believe certainty gives us power over the future. Robin asks how Simone finds his stories. His answer: chase change. Whether internal (doubt, transformation) or external (leaving a cult, facing rising seas), he seeks tension and evolution. Examples: A couple questioning their marriage An employee leading dissent at work A man leaving his religious identity behind A nation (Tuvalu) confronting its own disappearance “The story you find is always better than the one you seek.” Want to Be a Writer? Start Writing. (36:50.554) Robin asks for writing advice. Simone offers two pillars: Ask These Four Questions: What's the story? Why should people care? Why now? Why you? “Only you can tell the story of buying a café and selling it on Craigslist.” Build the Practice: Writing is not just inspiration—it's routine. Schedule it. Join a group. Set deadlines. “Writing is the act of putting your ass in the chair.” Robin applauds Simone's book title, How to Not Know, for its playfulness and relevance. He asks how Simone's own relationship with uncertainty has evolved through his research. Simone reflects on how writing his first book, The Good Enough Job, softened his stance, from a hot take to a more nuanced view of work's role in life. Similarly, with his new book, his thinking on uncertainty has shifted. “Uncertainty is uncomfortable by design. That discomfort is what makes us pay attention.” Simone once championed uncertainty for its spontaneity and freedom. But now, he sees a more complex dance between certainty and uncertainty. “Certainty begets the ability to become more comfortable with uncertainty.” He gives the example of a younger self traveling with no plan, and the maturity of seeing how some people use uncertainty to avoid depth and commitment. Durable Skills for an Unstable Future (43:57.613) Robin shifts to the practical: In a world where stability is fading, what should we teach future generations? Simone shares three core “durable skills”: Learn how to learn – Adaptability beats certainty. Tell compelling stories – Human connection never goes out of style. Discern control from chaos – Use a mental decision tree: What can I control? If I can't control it, can I prepare? If I can't prepare, can I accept? “Often we're more uncomfortable with uncertainty than with a certain bad outcome.” He cites research showing people are stressed more by maybe getting shocked than actually getting shocked. AI as Editor, Not Author (47:23.765) Robin circles back to AI. Simone explains how his relationship with it has evolved: He never uses it for first drafts or ideation. Instead, AI serves as a “sparring partner” in editing – great at spotting drag, less useful at solving it. “People are often right about something being wrong, but not about the solution. I treat AI the same way.” Simone defends creative friction as essential to craft: rewriting, deleting, struggling – that's the work. The Chinese Farmer & the Fallacy of Forecasts (50:27.215) Robin expresses cautious optimism – but also fears AI will widen inequality and erode entry-level jobs. He asks what gives Simone hope. Simone counters with the “Parable of the Chinese Farmer,” where events can't be judged good or bad in real time. His conclusion: we don't know enough to be either pessimistic or optimistic. “Maybe AI ushers in civil unrest. Maybe a golden age. Maybe yes, maybe no.” He's most hopeful about the growing value of human touch – gifts of time, love, and effort in an increasingly automated world. Where to Find Simone (53:44.845) Website: thegoodenoughjob.com Newsletter: The Article Book Club (monthly articles not written by him, thousands of subscribers) Robin reminds listeners that Simone will be the opening speaker at Responsive Conference 2025, September 17–18.   People Mentioned: M'Gilvry Allen Anne Helen Petersen Anis Mojgani  Bree Groff  Tim Ferriss Steven Pressfield Ernest Hemingway Justin Gordon   Organizations Mentioned:   Responsive Conference Zander Media Asana, Inc X, The Moonshot Factory (formerly Google X)  Waymo,  Jewish Community Centers (Boulder & Denver)  Robin's Cafe Amazon Google / Alphabet    Books & Newsletters The Good Enough Job  How to Not Know (upcoming book) The 4‑Hour Workweek Just Go Grind  Article Book Club   

Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander. In this episode, I'm joined by Bree Groff, consultant, writer, and author of Today Was Fun. We talk about why mischief belongs at work, how humor and flirtation create real psychological safety, and the bold design choices behind her unforgettable book cover. Bree shares how she moved from CEO roles to full creative freedom, and how that shift helped her find her voice. We discuss marketing in 2025, how AI might reshape work and writing, and why personal agency, not hours, is the most important lever in a workweek.  Bree offers practical insights for leading with joy, helping kids future-proof their lives, and deciding what's “enough” in a world that always demands more. She also reflects on writing the book while parenting, consulting, and building her own business, and what it means to embrace the joy of not knowing what comes next. Bree will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm thrilled for you to hear her on stage. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. Books Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth, and Art — Lewis Hyde Anansi Boys — Neil Gaiman Work Less, Do More: Designing the 4-Day Week — Alex Pang Shorter: Work Better, Smarter, and Less―Here's How — Alex Pang Rest: Why You Get More Done When You Work Less — Alex Pang Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts — Ryan Holiday Today Was Fun — Bree Groff The 4-Hour Workweek —Tim Ferriss Responsive: What It Takes to Create a Thriving Organization — Robin Zander Podcasts/Videos TED Talk: How to Start a Movement — Derek Sivers Start (0:00) The Story Behind the Book Cover (00:07.822) Robin opens with a personal observation: Bree's nails are the exact shade of green as her book cover – a smiley face on a highlighter yellow-green background.  Bree laughs and explains the choice behind the bold, offbeat cover: It was designed by Rodrigo Corral, known for iconic covers like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fck*. When she first saw it (at 3 a.m.), she gasped and loved it — it stood out and made a statement. The smiley is cheeky but not cheesy; it suggests optimism with a bite. The color isn't quite yellow — it's that “gross green” that almost hurts to look at. That tension is the point. “It's got some edge... not your straight-up yellow.” This tension – bright and fun, but just a bit weird or off –  is exactly the tone she wanted for the book and for herself. The Wink That Makes Work Fun Again (01:51) Robin brings up his old graduation photo: he posed slightly off-center, adding a knowing smirk. At the time, he didn't know why he chose that shot, but later realized it made people curious, like a small rebellion baked into something formal. Bree relates completely. She talks about: Why humor and a bit of mischief matter in professional settings. The concept of flirtation – not romantic, but playful: A wink in a branding campaign. A reference that only a few insiders get. A running joke between team members. Mischief creates risk and intimacy, both essential for real connection. These small acts of rebellion are actually signs of psychological safety and creativity. “You need a little bit of flirtation at work... a wink that says, ‘we're in this together.'” She argues that fun isn't a distraction – it's a sign that something is working. Tricksters, SNAFUs, and the Role of Risk in Work (05:49.219) Robin brings in the idea of the trickster, from folklore characters like Anansi and Coyote to his podcast title SNAFU. These figures don't follow the rules, and that's what makes them interesting. Bree expands on the connection between play and professionalism: There's a cultural script that says “seriousness = competence.” But in her experience, some of the best work moments involve play, risk, and even slight embarrassment. Being human together – laughing too loud, saying something weird, trying something bold – is what builds bonds. Real joy at work comes from these edge moments, not the sanitized ones. “You have to go beyond professionalism to access the most fun parts of work.” They agree that creating spaces where people can color outside the lines is not just fun – it's productive. Beyond Palatable: From People-Pleasing to Belonging (08:29.068) Robin shares a lesson from his mother: that once you leave high school, life is no longer a popularity contest. But he's realized that in business, especially branding, people often still chase approval and “likability.” Bree offers a deeper lens: Being “palatable” – meaning universally acceptable – is actually the opposite of being memorable. People who try to please everyone end up blending in. What she wants is to be delicious, or at least striking, not for everyone, but unforgettable to some. She draws a line between Fitting in: performing a version of yourself to meet social norms. Belonging: being your full, vibrant self and finding others who welcome it. “Please don't chew me up. I'm not palatable — I'm not trying to be.” This philosophy shows up in her book's voice, design, and in how she shows up in the world. Selling a Book in 2025: Bottles in the Ocean (12:21.838) What's it been like trying to promote a book in 2025? Bree describes her strategy as both scrappy and intuitive: She thinks of book marketing as sending “a million notes in bottles” – not knowing which will land. Her approach includes: Partnering with a publicist. Creating swag kits with branded gear. Pitching the book to “chatty” communities (e.g., alumni groups, newsletters, podcast audiences). Posting regularly, even when it feels silly. She cites the idea of “luck surface area”: the more interesting things you do, and the more people you tell, the more chances something will stick. “You do interesting things and talk about them a lot... and maybe something takes off.” Still, she acknowledges that luck plays a role. There's no guaranteed playbook, just momentum and hope. Is It Worth Talking About? (14:47.63) Robin references a quote from Tucker Max: that all marketing, in the end, is just word-of-mouth. Bree shares what guided her during the writing process: Her goal was to create something remarkable — in the literal sense: Something people would want to talk about. Not just good – but distinct, resonant, and weird enough to share. She wanted to avoid the “business book voice” – flat, generic, overly polished. She lights up when she talks about: Strangers sharing the book on social. Friends are texting her about it. An old college boyfriend resurfaced after reading it. “When that starts happening... You realize the machine is working.” She's less interested in best-seller lists and more focused on impact – ideas spreading from person to person, because they hit. Finding Her Voice: From Blogger to Book Author (16:36.665) Bree traces the evolution of her writing life: Started a travel blog in her early 20s and loved it immediately. Played with writing publicly over the years: occasional posts on LinkedIn, Fast Company, and later Substack (which began two years ago, alongside early book ideation). Writing always felt natural, but being a public voice within organizations came with constraints: “Even when I was CEO, I still felt the need to toe the party line.” Going solo changed everything: No longer represents a company's brand – just her own. Writing feels more honest, bolder, and more fun when it's “Bree Groff's opinions” alone. Stepping out independently accelerated her writing voice and gave her creative freedom. Writing in the Age of AI (18:19.63) Robin asks: Does writing still matter in the world of AI? Bree's take: She's a verbal processor — writing is how she discovers what she believes. “I never know how an article is going to end… I write my way into the idea.” She rarely uses AI in writing (aside from Grammarly). She prefers human composition even for emails. Writing helps her organize and refine her thinking: “I'll write a sentence and go – wait, do I believe that? And rewrite.” What writing offers that AI can't (yet): Emotional authenticity. A confessional power — like stand-up comedy: humans telling uncomfortable truths, out loud. She hopes we'll someday have digital labels like: “This was made by a human.” Robin presses for Bree's take on what AI changes – for better or worse. Bree's pessimistic view: Mass unemployment is a likely risk. Not convinced by the “tech creates more jobs” argument – even referencing Jevons Paradox: as things become more efficient, we just use more of them. “I can't quite think my way out of the unemployment problem.” Bree's optimistic vision: We're burned out. AI could fix that. If used right, AI can reduce workloads, not eliminate humans: “Wouldn't it be great if we used these efficiencies to help people live happy, regulated lives?” This would require a policy change, like tax incentives for companies that adopt a 4-day workweek. But she admits: that's a long shot. “It would take a lot for companies to prioritize reducing burnout over cutting costs.” Entrepreneurship Isn't a 4-Day Workweek (And That's Okay) (25:04.686) Robin challenges Bree's hope with reality: Entrepreneurship is chaotic and demanding, as when he launched both a restaurant and a conference in one year. When building something from scratch, the work is relentless. “There's no 4-day workweek when you're going zero to one.” He notes Bree's book could become a “perennial seller,” but only if she builds that momentum now — and that means hustle. Bree agrees — and offers nuance: She's in a launch phase. The last 6 weeks have been intense: Nights, weekends, articles, appearances. Her daughter is in a full-day camp to support this push. But it's intentional and temporary. She frames her philosophy like this: Overwork can be fun, energizing, even addictive –  if it's seasonal. She's already planned recovery: A two-week log-off in late August. A blocked-out first week of September for reset. Bree continues on the myth of “reasonable” work limits: There's nothing special about 40 or 60 hours. The only reason we cap out is that we literally run out of time. Businesses will take as much as you give, and now AI won't hit those limits. So we have to decide what's enough, not the market. “If we're going to cap work somewhere, why not cap it lower and enjoy our lives?” She reminds us: Deadlines and pace are levers, not laws. You can pull other levers, like starting earlier, extending timelines, or balancing your team differently. Robin shares that his intense physical regimen (handstands, running, cold plunges, hikes) isn't about health prescriptions — it's about joy. That same mindset applies to work. If building his company lights him up, great – but it's a personal choice, not a universal blueprint. Bree underscores that agency is key: the danger arises when a founder's choice to overwork becomes the cultural expectation for everyone else. A CEO has different stakes than employees; assuming equal sacrifice is unfair and toxic. Overwork becomes problematic when choice is removed or social pressure distorts it. They introduce the idea of opportunity cost: Every hour spent grinding is an hour not spent with loved ones, moving your body, or simply resting. Many delay self-care with the illusion they'll "catch up later" – but your body and relationships exist in the now. Robin recalls a brutal 2016: two startups, no time, lost relationships – a visceral reminder that everything has a cost. Work, But Make It Weird (36:39) Robin draws a parallel between their playful ethos and The 4-Hour Workweek: redefining productivity with mischief and authenticity. He asks Bree how leaders can lead differently – more playfully – without violating norms or HR policies. Bree delivers a gem: Her team once suggested that a CEO explain their product to a bunch of 7-year-olds on a picnic blanket. They scripted techy questions ("What's your tech stack?") for the kids, hired a comedy consultant, and filmed the whole thing. It was wild, unexpected… and the most beloved part of an otherwise traditional company week. The magic was in the vulnerability and humanity of the CEO — letting people into his home, sharing space with kids, and showing joy. Bree's advice to leaders: Rearrange the office furniture for no reason. Use Comic Sans in a slide just to annoy a designer. Hide jokes in presentations that only two people will catch. Amuse yourself. That's reason enough, and it models psychological safety and play for everyone else. Robin calls this “the courage to play” – the bravery to step out of line just enough to invite others into the fun. Bree builds on this: We're often afraid that having fun will make us look stupid – but that fear is misplaced. She quotes Amy Poehler: “Nobody looks stupid when they're having fun.” Play is an act of self-assurance, not frivolity. Bree shares a personal win: she turned a project Gantt chart into a hand-drawn arcade-style horse race. No one else joined in, but she loved it. And that joy, in and of itself, is a worthy output. Work According to a 10-Year-Old (42:21.176) Robin asks: How does Bree's daughter describe what she does? Her answer? “You help people work together.” Bree beams — that's not far off. Her daughter has even become her little publicist, linking nail polish to Bree's book and promoting it to strangers. Robin dreams of having kids and wonders about their future in a rapidly evolving world. Bree is grateful her daughter is 10, not 22 – the future feels so uncertain that not knowing is oddly freeing. College may or may not matter; she might be a marketing manager or start an artist retreat in Tuscany. The one stable prediction? Human connection. Jobs built on empathy, presence, and the hug – literal or metaphorical – will always have value. Robin jokes (but not really) about resisting the idea of robot romantic partners. Bree wonders: Will we be seen as biased for resisting AI companionship? Is that the next generational tension? The Only Skill That Might Still Matter in 2040 (43:55.959) Robin asks: What durable skills should Gen Alpha learn in a world of AI and noise? Bree's first thought: “understanding human behavior” — but AI might already be better at that. So she lands on something deeper: The skill of knowing what kind of life you want to lead. It's rarely taught, and sorely needed. That's why so many people wake up at 40, mid-career, with a law degree but no love for the law, and end up switching to something that finally feels like them. Teaching kids to listen to their appetites and curiosities might be the most powerful, future-proof education we can offer. Bree argues that most people were never taught to ask foundational questions about the life they truly want: From childhood to college, we follow preset tracks – curriculum, majors, careers. If you're lucky, you get an elective or two. But real self-inquiry? Rare. We're missing education on key lifestyle preferences: What kind of schedule do I like? What kind of people energize me? Do I want to live in a city or near nature? How much solitude, structure, or chaos is ideal for me? Bree believes this underdeveloped self-awareness is the root cause of burnout: People follow “the path,” get promoted, tick boxes, and still feel unsatisfied. Companies gladly fill the vacuum with corporate ladders and titles – senior director, VP, etc. But we rarely stop to ask: Do I want my boss's job? Her hope for her daughter: not just career success, but aliveness. To develop the instincts and courage to ask: What do I want to get out of my short time here? And to find joy in helping others experience a bit more light while they're here, too. “Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose?” (51:33.666) Robin shares a surprising memory: a third-grade class titled Who Are You and What Is Your Purpose? He doesn't remember the content – school was tough for him then – but the title stuck. It captured something real and deep that still resonates. Bree lights up: “Okay, I take it all back – someone was teaching this, and it was you!” They land on a core truth: that mischief, self-knowledge, and authenticity are deeply intertwined. Knowing who you are is the first step. And honoring the weird, playful part of yourself makes life better — and work richer. Order, Chaos & a Trello Board (53:51) Robin pivots: What did Bree learn about writing through this book, especially while juggling parenting and client work? Bree shares her full process: She started with a Trello board: each list represented a chapter. Over many months, she collected bits of inspiration: ideas from the shower, great quotes, Substack entries, research snippets – all filed as cards. This meant when it came time to write, she wasn't starting from scratch. Her trick: separate idea collection from prose creation. Once she had a "pile of disorganized meat," she could stitch it together with intention. She scheduled 4-hour blocks to write ~1,000 words per session – 50 sessions = a 50,000-word book. She was thoughtful about pacing and reader experience: "That was a heavy part – maybe time for a joke. "I've been light for a while – maybe we need some grounding research." The outcome: a process that respected her creativity, time, and humanity. The Joy of Not Knowing What's Next (54:45.848) Robin asks: Now that the book is out, what's next? Bree doesn't know, and that feels exciting. She's booked through the fall with workshops, consulting, media, and speaking. But beyond that? It's open. She's leaning into serendipity: Publishing the book drew new, inspiring people into her life – people like Robin. She's open to building the classic “author-speaker-consultant” portfolio. Or possibly returning to SYPartners, depending on what fits. Or a totally new path. What makes it possible? A jumpy career history – she's used to leaps. A baseline of financial stability – and a partner with a more predictable job. Uncertainty isn't terrifying when you trust yourself to figure it out. “I can see through October. That's enough.” Robin wraps with heartfelt praise: Few first books feel as personal and reflective of their author as Today Was Fun. Even fewer come with so many shared connections vouching not just for the content, but the author herself. Where to Find Bree Groff (58:13.58) He urges people to read the book and see Bree on stage at the Responsive Conference (Sept 17–18). Bree shares where to find her: Website: breegroff.com Substack, LinkedIn, Instagram – all linked from her site. People Mentioned: Rodrigo Corral Lewis Hyde Neil Gaiman Tony Hsieh James Clear Tucker Max Alex Pang Ryan Holiday Tim Ferriss Amy Poehler Derek Sivers Justin Gordon BJ Fogg Seth Godin Organizations / Companies Zander Media SYPartners Nobel Zappos Microsoft Trello Substack AOL LinkedIn Instagram  

Welcome back to Snafu w/ Robin Zander.  In this episode, I'm joined by Brian Elliott, former Slack executive and co-founder of Future Forum. We discuss the common mistakes leaders make about AI and why trust and transparency are more crucial than ever. Brian shares lessons from building high-performing teams, what makes good leadership, and how to foster real collaboration. He also reflects on raising values-driven kids, the breakdown of institutional trust, and why purpose matters. We touch on the early research behind Future Forum and what he'd do differently today. Brian will also be joining us live at Responsive Conference 2025, and I'm excited to continue the conversation there. If you haven't gotten your tickets yet, get them here. What Do Most People Get Wrong About AI? (1:53) “Senior leaders sit on polar ends of the spectrum on this stuff. Very, very infrequently, sit in the middle, which is kind of where I find myself too often.”  Robin notes Brian will be co-leading an active session on AI at Responsive Conference with longtime collaborator Helen Kupp. He tees up the conversation by saying Brian holds “a lot of controversial opinions” on AI, not that it's insignificant, but that there's a lot of “idealization.” Brian says most senior leaders fall into one of two camps: Camp A: “Oh my God, this changes everything.” These are the fear-mongers shouting: “If you don't adopt now, your career is over.” Camp B: “This will blow over.” They treat AI as just another productivity fad, like others before it. Brian positions himself somewhere in the middle but is frustrated by both ends of the spectrum. He points out that the loudest voices (Mark Benioff, Andy Jassy, Zuckerberg, Sam Altman) are “arms merchants” – they're pushing AI tools because they've invested billions. These tools are massively expensive to build and run, and unless they displace labor, it's unclear how they generate ROI. believe in AI's potential and  aggressively push adoption inside their companies. So, naturally, these execs have to: But “nothing ever changes that fast,” and both the hype and the dismissal are off-base. Why Playing with AI Matters More Than Training (3:29) AI is materially different from past tech, but what's missing is attention to how adoption happens. “The organizational craft of driving adoption is not about handing out tools. It's all emotional.” Adoption depends on whether people respond with fear or aspiration, not whether they have the software. Frontline managers are key: it's their job to create the time and space for teams to experiment with AI. Brian credits Helen Kupp for being great at facilitating this kind of low-stakes experimentation. Suggests teams should “play with AI tools” in a way totally unrelated to their actual job. Example: take a look at your fridge, list the ingredients you have, and have AI suggest a recipe. “Well, that's a sucky recipe, but it could do that, right?” The point isn't utility,  it's comfort and conversation: What's OK to use AI for? Is it acceptable to draft your self-assessment for performance reviews with AI? Should you tell your boss or hide it? The Purpose of Doing the Thing (5:30) Robin brings up Ezra Klein's podcast in The New York Times, where Ezra asks: “What's the purpose of writing an essay in college?” AI can now do better research than a student, faster and maybe more accurately. But Robin argues that the act of writing is what matters, not just the output. Says: “I'm much better at writing that letter than ChatGPT can ever be, because only Robin Zander can write that letter.” Example: Robin and his partner are in contract on a house and wrote a letter to the seller – the usual “sob story” to win favor. All the writing he's done over the past two years prepared him to write that one letter better. “The utility of doing the thing is not the thing itself – it's what it trains.” Learning How to Learn (6:35) Robin's fascinated by “skills that train skills” – a lifelong theme in both work and athletics. He brings up Josh Waitzkin (from Searching for Bobby Fischer), who went from chess prodigy to big wave surfer to foil board rider. Josh trained his surfing skills by riding a OneWheel through NYC, practicing balance in a different context. Robin is drawn to that kind of transfer learning and “meta-learning” – especially since it's so hard to measure or study. He asks: What might AI be training in us that isn't the thing itself? We don't yet know the cognitive effects of using generative AI daily, but we should be asking. Cognitive Risk vs. Capability Boost (8:00) Brian brings up early research suggesting AI could make us “dumber.” Outsourcing thinking to AI reduces sharpness over time. But also: the “10,000 repetitions” idea still holds weight – doing the thing builds skill. There's a tension between “performance mode” (getting the thing done) and “growth mode” (learning). He relates it to writing: Says he's a decent writer, not a great one, but wants to keep getting better. Has a “quad project” with an editor who helps refine tone and clarity but doesn't do the writing. The setup: he provides 80% drafts, guidelines, tone notes, and past writing samples. The AI/editor cleans things up, but Brian still reviews: “I want that colloquialism back in.” “I want that specific example back in.” “That's clunky, I don't want to keep it.” Writing is iterative, and tools can help, but shouldn't replace his voice. On Em Dashes & Detecting Human Writing (9:30) Robin shares a trick: he used em dashes long before ChatGPT and does them with a space on either side. He says that ChatGPT's em dashes are double-length and don't have spaces. If you want to prove ChatGPT didn't write something, “just add the space.” Brian agrees and jokes that his editors often remove the spaces, but he puts them back in. Reiterates that professional human editors like the ones he works with at Charter and Sloan are still better than AI. Closing the Gap Takes More Than Practice (10:31) Robin references The Gap by Ira Glass, a 2014 video that explores the disconnect between a creator's vision and their current ability to execute on that vision. He highlights Glass's core advice: the only way to close that gap is through consistent repetition – what Glass calls “the reps.” Brian agrees, noting that putting in the reps is exactly what creators must do, even when their output doesn't yet meet their standards. Brian also brings up his recent conversation with Nick Petrie, whose work focuses not only on what causes burnout but also on what actually resolves it. He notes research showing that people stuck in repetitive performance mode – like doctors doing the same task for decades – eventually see a decline in performance. Brian recommends mixing in growth opportunities alongside mastery work. “exploit” mode (doing what you're already good at) and  “explore” mode (trying something new that pushes you) He says doing things that stretch your boundaries builds muscle that strengthens your core skills and breaks stagnation. He emphasizes the value of alternating between  He adds that this applies just as much to personal growth, especially when people begin to question their deeper purpose and ask hard questions like, “Is this all there is to my life or career? Brian observes that stepping back for self-reflection is often necessary, either by choice or because burnout forces a hard stop. He suggests that sustainable performance requires not just consistency but also intentional space for growth, purpose, and honest self-evaluation. Why Taste And Soft Skills Now Matter More Than Ever (12:30) On AI, Brian argues that most people get it wrong. “I do think it's augmentation.” The tools are evolving rapidly, and so are the ways we use them. They view it as a way to speed up work, especially for engineers, but that's missing the bigger picture. Brian stresses that EQ is becoming more important than IQ. Companies still need people with developer mindsets – hypothesis-driven, structured thinkers. But now, communication, empathy, and adaptability are no longer optional; they are critical. “Human communication skills just went from ‘they kind of suck at it but it's okay' to ‘that's not acceptable.'” As AI takes over more specialist tasks, the value of generalists is rising. People who can generate ideas, anticipate consequences, and rally others around a vision will be most valuable. “Tools can handle the specialized knowledge – but only humans can connect it to purpose.” Brian warns that traditional job descriptions and org charts are becoming obsolete. Instead of looking for ways to rush employees into doing more work, “rethink the roles. What can a small group do when aligned around a common purpose?” The future lies in small, aligned teams with shared goals. Vision Is Not a Strategy (15:56) Robin reflects on durable human traits through Steve Jobs' bio by Isaac Walterson. Jobs succeeded not just with tech, but with taste, persuasion, charisma, and vision. “He was less technologist, more storyteller.” They discuss Sam Altman, the subject of Empire of AI. Whether or not the book is fully accurate, Robin argues that Altman's defining trait is deal-making. Robin shares his experience using ChatGPT in real estate. It changed how he researched topics like redwood root systems on foundational structure and mosquito mitigation. Despite the tech, both agree that human connection is more important than ever. “We need humans now more than ever.” Brian references data from Kelly Monahan showing AI power users are highly productive but deeply burned out. 40% more productive than their peers. 88% are completely burnt out. Many don't believe their company's AI strategy, even while using the tools daily. There's a growing disconnect between executive AI hype and on-the-ground experience. But internal tests by top engineers showed only 10% improvement, mostly in simple tasks. “You've got to get into the tools yourself to be fluent on this.” One CTO believed AI would produce 30% efficiency gains. Brian urges leaders to personally engage with the tools before making sweeping decisions. He warns against blindly accepting optimistic vendor promises or trends. Leaders pushing AI without firsthand experience risk overburdening their teams. “You're bringing the Kool-Aid and then you're shoving it down your team's throat.” This results in burnout, not productivity. “You're cranking up the demands. You're cranking up the burnout, too.” “That's not going to lead to what you want either.” If You Want Control, Just Say That (20:47) Robin raises the topic of returning to the office, which has been a long-standing area of interest for him. “I interviewed Joel Gascoyne on stage in 2016… the largest fully distributed company in the world at the time.” He's tracked distributed work since Responsive 2016. Also mentions Shelby Wolpa (ex-Envision), who scaled thousands remotely. Robin notes the shift post-COVID: companies are mandating returns without adjusting for today's realities.” Example: “Intel just did a mandatory 4 days a week return to office… and now people live hours away.” He acknowledges the benefits of in-person collaboration, especially in creative or physical industries. “There is an undeniable utility.”, especially as they met in Robin's Cafe to talk about Responsive, despite a commute, because it was worth it. But he challenges blanket return-to-office mandates, especially when the rationale is unclear. According to Brian, any company uses RTO as a veiled soft layoff tactic. Cites Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy openly stating RTO is meant to encourage attrition. He says policies without clarity are ineffective. “If you quit, I don't have to pay you severance.” Robin notes that the Responsive Manifesto isn't about providing answers but outlining tensions to balance. Before enforcing an RTO policy, leaders should ask: “What problem are we trying to solve – and do we have evidence of it?” Before You Mandate, Check the Data (24:50) Performance data should guide decisions, not executive assumptions. For instance, junior salespeople may benefit from in-person mentorship, but… That may only apply to certain teams, and doesn't justify full mandates. “I've seen situations where productivity has fallen – well-defined productivity.” The decision-making process should be decentralized and nuanced. Different teams have different needs — orgs must avoid one-size-fits-all policies, especially in large, distributed orgs. “Should your CEO be making that decision? Or should your head of sales?” Brian offers a two-part test for leaders to assess their RTO logic: Are you trying to attract and retain the best talent? Are your teams co-located or distributed? If the answer to #1 is yes: People will be less engaged, not more. High performers will quietly leave or disengage while staying. Forcing long commutes will hurt retention and morale. If the answer to #2 is “distributed”: Brian then tells a story about a JPMorgan IT manager who asks Jamie Dimon for flexibility. “It's freaking stupid… it actually made it harder to do their core work.” Instead, teams need to define shared norms and operating agreements. “Teams have to have norms to be effective.” RTO makes even less sense. His team spanned time zones and offices, forcing them into daily hurt collaboration. He argues most RTO mandates are driven by fear and a desire for control. More important than office days are questions like: What hours are we available for meetings? What tools do we use and why? How do we make decisions? Who owns which roles and responsibilities? The Bottom Line: The policy must match the structure. If teams are remote by design, dragging them into an office is counterproductive. How to Be a Leader in Chaotic Times (28:34) “We're living in a more chaotic time than any in my lifetime.” Robin asks how leaders should guide their organizations through uncertainty. He reflects on his early work years during the 2008 crash and the unpredictability he's seen since. Observes current instability like the UCSF and NIH funding and hiring freezes disrupting universities, rising political violence, and murders of public officials from the McKnight Foundation, and more may persist for years without relief. “I was bussing tables for two weeks, quit, became a personal trainer… my old client jumped out a window because he lost his fortune as a banker.” Brian says what's needed now is: Resilience – a mindset of positive realism: acknowledging the issues, while focusing on agency and possibility, and supporting one another. Trust – not just psychological safety, but deep belief in leadership clarity and honesty. His definition of resilience includes: “What options do we have?” “What can we do as a team?” “What's the opportunity in this?” What Builds Trust (and What Breaks It) (31:00) Brian recalls laying off more people than he hired during the dot-com bust – and what helped his team endure: “Here's what we need to do. If you're all in, we'll get through this together.” He believes trust is built when: Leaders communicate clearly and early. They acknowledge difficulty, without sugarcoating. They create clarity about what matters most right now. They involve their team in solutions. He critiques companies that delay communication until they're in PR cleanup mode: Like Target's CEO, who responded to backlash months too late – and with vague platitudes. “Of course, he got backlash,” Brian says. “He wasn't present.” According to him, “Trust isn't just psychological safety. It's also honesty.” Trust Makes Work Faster, Better, and More Fun (34:10) “When trust is there, the work is more fun, and the results are better.” Robin offers a Zander Media story: Longtime collaborator Jonathan Kofahl lives in Austin. Despite being remote, they prep for shoots with 3-minute calls instead of hour-long meetings. The relationship is fast, fluid, and joyful, and the end product reflects that. He explains the ripple effects of trust: Faster workflows Higher-quality output More fun and less burnout Better client experience Fewer miscommunications or dropped balls He also likens it to acrobatics: “If trust isn't there, you land on your head.” Seldom Wrong, Never in Doubt (35:45) “Seldom wrong, never in doubt – that bit me in the butt.” Brian reflects on a toxic early-career mantra: As a young consultant, he was taught to project confidence at all times. It was said that “if you show doubt, you lose credibility,” especially with older clients. Why that backfired: It made him arrogant. It discouraged honest questions or collaborative problem-solving. It modeled bad leadership for others. Brian critiques the startup world's hero culture: Tech glorifies mavericks and contrarians, people who bet against the grain and win. But we rarely see the 95% who bet big and failed, and the survivors become models, often with toxic effects. The real danger: Leaders try to imitate success without understanding the context. Contrarianism becomes a virtue in itself – even when it's wrong. Now, he models something else: “I can point to the mountain, but I don't know the exact path.” Leaders should admit they don't have all the answers. Inviting the team to figure it out together builds alignment and ownership. That's how you lead through uncertainty, by trusting your team to co-create. Slack, Remote Work, and the Birth of Future Forum (37:40) Brian recalls the early days of Future Forum: Slack was deeply office-centric pre-pandemic. He worked 5 days a week in SF, and even interns were expected to show up regularly. Slack's leadership, especially CTO Cal Henderson, was hesitant to go remote, not because they were anti-remote, but because they didn't know how. But when COVID hit, Slack, like everyone else, had to figure out remote work in real time. Brian had long-standing relationships with Slack's internal research team: He pitched Stewart Butterfield (Slack's CEO) on the idea of a think tank, where he was then joined by Helen Kupp and Sheela Subramanian, who became his co-founders in the venture. Thus, Future Forum was born. Christina Janzer, Lucas Puente, and others. Their research was excellent, but mostly internal-facing, used for product and marketing. Brian, self-described as a “data geek,” saw an opportunity: Remote Work Increased Belonging, But Not for Everyone (40:56) In mid-2020, Future Forum launched its first major study. Expected finding: employee belonging would drop due to isolation. Reality: it did, but not equally across all demographics. For Black office workers, a sense of belonging actually increased. Future Forum brought in Dr. Brian Lowery, a Black professor at Stanford, to help interpret the results. Lowery explained: “I'm a Black professor at Stanford. Whatever you think of it as a liberal school, if I have to walk on that campus five days a week and be on and not be Black five days a week, 9 to 5 – it's taxing. It's exhausting. If I can dial in and out of that situation, it's a release.” A Philosophy Disguised as a Playbook (42:00) Brian, Helen, and Sheela co-authored a book that distilled lessons from: Slack's research Hundreds of executive conversations Real-world trials during the remote work shift One editor even commented on how the book is “more like a philosophy book disguised as a playbook.” The key principles are: “Start with what matters to us as an organization. Then ask: What's safe to try?” Policies don't work. Principles do. Norms > mandates. Team-level agreements matter more than companywide rules. Focus on outcomes, not activity.  Train your managers. Clarity, trust, and support start there. Safe-to-try experiments. Iterate fast and test what works for your team. Co-create team norms. Define how decisions get made, what tools get used, and when people are available. What's great with the book is that no matter where you are, this same set of rules still applies.  When Leadership Means Letting Go (43:54) “My job was to model the kind of presence I wanted my team to show.” Robin recalls a defining moment at Robin's Café: Employees were chatting behind the counter while a banana peel sat on the floor, surrounded by dirty dishes. It was a lawsuit waiting to happen. His first impulse was to berate them, a habit from his small business upbringing. But in that moment, he reframed his role. “I'm here to inspire, model, and demonstrate the behavior I want to see.” He realized: Hovering behind the counter = surveillance, not leadership. True leadership = empowering your team to care, even when you're not around. You train your manager to create a culture, not compliance. Brian and Robin agree: Rules only go so far. Teams thrive when they believe in the ‘why' behind the work. Robin draws a link between strong workplace culture and… The global rise of authoritarianism The erosion of trust in institutions If trust makes Zander Media better, and helps VC-backed companies scale — “Why do our political systems seem to be rewarding the exact opposite?” Populism, Charisma & Bullshit (45:20) According to Robin, “We're in a world where trust is in very short supply.” Brian reflects on why authoritarianism is thriving globally: The media is fragmented. Everyone's in different pocket universes. People now get news from YouTube or TikTok, not trusted institutions. Truth is no longer shared, and without shared truth, trust collapses. “Walter Cronkite doesn't exist anymore.” He references Andor, where the character, Mon Mothma, says: People no longer trust journalism, government, universities, science, or even business. Edelman's Trust Barometer dipped for business leaders for the first time in 25 years. CEOs who once declared strong values are now going silent, which damages trust even more. “The death of truth is really the problem that's at work here.” Robin points out: Trump and Elon, both charismatic, populist figures, continue to gain power despite low trust. Why? Because their clarity and simplicity still outperform thoughtful leadership. He also calls Trump a “marketing genius.” Brian's frustration: Case in point: Trump-era officials who spread conspiracy theories now can't walk them back. Populists manufacture distrust, then struggle to govern once in power. He shares a recent example: Result: Their base turned on them. Right-wing pundits (Pam Bondi, Dan Bongino) fanned Jeffrey Epstein conspiracies. But in power, they had to admit: “There's no client list publicly.” Brian then suggests that trust should be rebuilt locally. He points to leaders like Zohran Mamdani (NY): “I may not agree with all his positions, but he can articulate a populist vision that isn't exploitative.” Where Are the Leaders? (51:19) Brian expresses frustration at the silence from people in power: “I'm disappointed, highly disappointed, in the number of leaders in positions of power and authority who could lend their voice to something as basic as: science is real.” He calls for a return to shared facts: “Let's just start with: vaccines do not cause autism. Let's start there.” He draws a line between public health and trust: We've had over a century of scientific evidence backing vaccines But misinformation is eroding communal health Brian clarifies: this isn't about wedge issues like guns or Roe v. Wade The problem is that scientists lack public authority, but CEOs don't CEOs of major institutions could shift the narrative, especially those with massive employee bases. And yet, most say nothing: “They know it's going to bite them… and still, no one's saying it.” He warns: ignoring this will hurt businesses, frontline workers, and society at large. 89 Seconds from Midnight (52:45) Robin brings up the Doomsday Clock: Historically, it was 2–4 minutes to midnight “We are 89 seconds to midnight.” (as of January 2025) This was issued by the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists, a symbol of how close humanity is to destroying itself. Despite that, he remains hopeful: “I might be the most energetic person in any room – and yet, I'm a prepper.” Robin shared that: And in a real emergency? You might not make it. He grew up in the wilderness, where ambulances don't arrive, and CPR is a ritual of death. He frequently visits Vieques, an island off Puerto Rico with no hospital, where a car crash likely means you won't survive. As there is a saying there that goes, ‘No Hay Hospital', meaning ‘there is no hospital'. If something serious happens, you're likely a few hours' drive or even a flight away from medical care. That shapes his worldview: “We've forgotten how precious life is in privileged countries.” Despite his joy and optimism, Robin is also: Deeply aware of fragility – of systems, bodies, institutions. Committed to preparation, not paranoia. Focused on teaching resilience, care, and responsibility. How to Raise Men with Heart and Backbone (55:00) Robin asks: “How do you counsel your boys to show up as protectors and earners, especially in a capitalist world, while also taking care of people, especially when we're facing the potential end of humanity in our lifetimes?” Brian responds: His sons are now 25 and 23, and he's incredibly proud of who they're becoming. Credits both parenting and luck but he also acknowledges many friends who've had harder parenting experiences. His sons are: Sharp and thoughtful In healthy relationships Focused on values over achievements Educational path: “They think deeply about what are now called ‘social justice' issues in a very real way.” Example: In 4th grade, their class did a homelessness simulation – replicating the fragmented, frustrating process of accessing services. Preschool at the Jewish Community Center Elementary at a Quaker school in San Francisco He jokes that they needed a Buddhist high school to complete the loop Not religious, but values-based, non-dogmatic education had a real impact That hands-on empathy helped them see systemic problems early on, especially in San Francisco, where it's worse. What Is Actually Enough? (56:54) “We were terrified our kids would take their comfort for granted.” Brian's kids: Lived modestly, but comfortably in San Francisco. Took vacations, had more than he and his wife did growing up. Worried their sons would chase status over substance. But what he taught them instead: Family matters. Friendships matter. Being dependable matters. Not just being good, but being someone others can count on. He also cautioned against: “We too often push kids toward something unattainable, and we act surprised when they burn out in the pursuit of that.” The “gold ring” mentality is like chasing elite schools, careers, and accolades. In sports and academics, he and his wife aimed for balance, not obsession. Brian on Parenting, Purpose, and Perspective (59:15) Brian sees promise in his kids' generation: But also more: Purpose-driven Skeptical of false promises Less obsessed with traditional success markers Yes, they're more stressed and overamped on social media. Gen Z has been labeled just like every generation before: “I'm Gen X. They literally made a movie about us called Slackers.” He believes the best thing we can do is: Model what matters Spend time reflecting: What really does matter? Help the next generation define enough for themselves, earlier than we did. The Real Measure of Success (1:00:07) Brian references Clay Christensen, famed author of The Innovator's Dilemma and How Will You Measure Your Life? Clay's insight: “Success isn't what you thought it was.” Early reunions are full of bravado – titles, accomplishments, money. Later reunions reveal divorce, estrangement, and regret. The longer you go, the more you see: Brian's takeaway: Even for Elon, it might be about Mars. But for most of us, it's not about how many projects we shipped. It's about: Family Friends Presence Meaning “If you can realize that earlier, you give yourself the chance to adjust – and find your way back.” Where to Find Brian (01:02:05) LinkedIn WorkForward.com Newsletter: The Work Forward on Substack “Some weeks it's lame, some weeks it's great. But there's a lot of community and feedback.” And of course, join us at Responsive Conference this September 17-18, 2025. Books Mentioned How Will You Measure Your Life? by Clayton Christensen The Innovator's Dilemma by Clayton Christensen Responsive Manifesto Empire of AI by Karen Hao Podcasts Mentioned The Gap by Ira Glass The Ezra Klein Show Movies Mentioned Andor Slackers Organizations Mentioned: Bulletin of Atomic Scientists McKnight Foundation National Institutes of Health (NIH) Responsive.org University of California, San Francisco

He's jammed with Freddie Mercury after Live Aid, written songs with Beach Boys royalty, and once found himself shooting guns in a backyard with KISS guitarist Ace Frehley…while on Quaaludes. I'm talking about musician, songwriter, and producer Larry Dvoskin. Over the years, Larry has collaborated with legends like Robert Plant, Sammy Hagar, Sean Lennon, Robin Zander, Bad Company, Al Jardine, and MGMT. In this episode, we cover it all—from co-writing “Wish” with Al Jardine, to talking quantum physics with Paul McCartney, to the unreleased David Bowie–Brandy track he's holding onto. He shares the full story behind that surreal Ace Frehley moment and discusses his latest release, “This New Age,” recorded with the band Familiar Faces. We kick off this conversation with a heartfelt look at the legacy of Brian Wilson - and the timeless music of the Beach Boys that continues to inspire generations. Keep up with Larry with the following links: ⁠Instagram⁠ ⁠Larry Dvoskin Website⁠ ⁠This New Age- Larry Dvoskin and Familiar Faces⁠ Songs from this episode: The Beach Boys - Don't Worry Baby KISS - Lick It Up Larry Dvoskin - This New Age The Beatles - Yesterday Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven For more information on My Rock Moment and the Host, Amanda Morck: www.myrockmoment.com For more information on upcoming episodes and your regular dose of rock history follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/la_woman_rocks Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

"Xtra Cherries" An aspiring baseball player with a solid fastball, the Illinois-born Chip Znuff put down the glove in favor of the bass and he left home at 17 going west with his punk rock band D-Generation. The D Generation story is told best by Chip himself, so I'll leave that one to him, and I'll cover what happened after that band broke up. Licking his wounds from his first time around on the rock and roll train, Chip formed Enuff Z'Nuff in 1984. Inspired by everyone from The Rasberries to Cheap Trick to Squeeze, Enuff Z'Nuff had pop hearts filled with hooks, but they were marketed as glam metal dudes, which led them into that lane, but it was probably a misrepresentation of the band's real chops. If you listen to the music and and ignore the image, they come across more like a tougher version of Jellyfish. Nevertheless, they made it work; in spite of their image, hits from their debut self-titled album like Fly High Michelle and "New Thing" were catchy blasts of ragged psychedelia that found the band all over MTV. Their follow-up record Strength found them looking decidedly less glam and it garnered rave reviews from Rolling Stone and the Washington Post and they absolutely crushed it on Letterman. Over the course of their career, Enuff Z'Nuff has toured all over the world, been on Howard Stern numerous times, been featured on VH-1, played on the Jenny Jones show, had Little Steven sing their praises as one of the most underrated bands on the planet and have put out close to thirty albums, including greatest hits and live recordings. Although the band has had its share of tragedies, losing members like Derek Frigo and Rickey Parent and its share of personnel changes with singer Donnie Vie stepping away from the band on two separate occasions, Enuff Z'Nuff are survivors. Chip took over vocals in 2014 and the band has never sounded better. Their new album Xtra Cherries has a deep bench, featuring Steve Stevens, Robin Zander of Cheap Trick, Donnie Vie, Gunnar Nelson and Steven Adler, who Chip played with in Adler's Appetite. The album is a refreshing blast of gritty pop that's played with muscle and heart, each track finding the band tearing the cover off the ball. https://enuffznuff.bandcamp.com/album/xtra-cherries https://www.enuffznuff.com/music www.bombshellradio.com (http://www.bombshellradio.com) www.stereoembersmagazine.com (http://www.stereoembersmagazine.com) www.alexgreenbooks.com (http://www.alexgreenbooks.com) Stereo Embers: Email: editor@stereoembersmagazine.com (mailto:editor@stereoembersmagazine.com) BLUESKY + IG: @emberspodcast

In this episode, we speak with Chip Z'Nuff from the legendary band Enuff Z'Nuff to talk about the bands 40 year history and discuss their 21st studio album, Xtra Cherries, which features a list of rock royalty, including Robin Zander, Steve Stevens, Steve Adler, Neal Schon and more!

Ryan Roxie discussed his move from Stockholm to Cape Town, highlighting the cultural and environmental differences. He addressed media sensationalism about South Africa's safety, emphasizing personal experiences. Ryan praised Alice Cooper's non-political approach to rock and roll, citing a 2018 Guardian interview. He shared insights on the music industry, including the challenges of promoting his solo work and the importance of hooks in songs. Ryan also mentioned his podcast, "In the Trenches," and its AI-driven special episode. He reflected on his career, including collaborations with Slash and Cheap Trick, and his admiration for comedians and their truth-telling roles.00:00 - Intro 00:20 - Move From Stockholm to Cape Town 03:23 - Alice Cooper, News & Comedians 05:00 - Metal Sludge, Metal Edge & Hooks 08:45 - Catchy Music & Standing Out 13:10 - Alice Cooper Interruption14:01 - New Roxie Song & Video & Roxie's Voice16:25 - Robin Zander & Liam Gallagher 18:30 - Learning From Alice & Work Ethic 21:45 - GnR, Slash, Cheap Trick, Oasis & More 24:12 - Bands Opening the Door to the Next Band 26:42 - Jackie From Canada and Favorite Song 28:30 - Meeting Famous People & Comedians 31:01 - Traveling & Touring & Seeing New Cities 32:30 - Alice Cooper Sightings 33:25 - In the Trenches Podcast, A.I. Video & Podcasts 36:55 - Having Guests on a Song & Algorithm  39:35 - Jordan Peterson & Eric Weinstein 40:39 - Collaborating & Connections 41:35 - Doing Podcasts 42:42 - Loving Music, New Single & Solo Shows 45:05 - Outro Ryan Roxie website:https://ryanroxie.com/Chuck Shute link tree:https://linktr.ee/chuck_shuteSupport the showThanks for Listening & Shute for the Moon!

Robin Zander is on Celebrity Jobber with Jeff Zito this week. What type of work would Robin Zander be doing if not for being the lead singer and rhythm guitarist for Cheap Trick? Many celebrities will tell you that if not for that one lucky break or meeting, they would be working at the GAP like Kanye West or A Calligrapher like Meghan Markle. Before she was a Suits actress, or hello, a member of the Royal Family. They may have been just a jobber. Thanks for listening. Please rate, review, and subscribe to the Celebrity Jobber with Jeff Zito wherever you pod.

new LA Guns, Robin Zander and Danko Jones plus Tesla, Hanoi Rocks and more! 

Mike Shirinian and Dave Fansler talk Rock & Roll and share their love for Cheap Trick with Marc Kapetan. They also talk about Marc’s new cover band featuring Margot Kim on lead vocals. On the Plate: From Pismo’s Coastal Grill, a Salmon with Dijon Beurre Blanc is served. The meal is paired with Robin Zander's "Surrender" Cabernet. Please Like, Comment and Follow 'The Restaurateurs' on all platforms: --- The Restaurateurs Podcast is available on the KMJNOW app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube or wherever else you listen to podcasts. -- The Restaurateurs | Website | Email | - Everything KMJ KMJNOW App | Podcasts | Facebook | X | Instagram See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Here's an episode that we originally released on our sister show, Why? but if this isn't Grad School, well, we don't know what is.If you're like us, you need more Cheap Trick in your life. Thankfully, Ross Warner is here with his new book, American Standard: Cheap Trick from the bars to the Budokan and Beyond. It's a look at one of the great American bands and tries to sort fact from fiction. And don't just take us for it- the book is making a lot of year-end best-of lists.American Standard: Cheap Trick from the bars to the Budokan and Beyond is available right now from Backbeat books.

Once in a while, you find a band that just does everything right. Western Massachusetts band THE GLAD MACHINEhas all the right elements, the big hooks, big guitars and the reliable rhythms that make it a joy to discover. The band is helmed by vocalist Brad Thayer with Neal Robinson (Bass), Greg Saulmon (guitar) and Mike Franklin (drums) Tommy Pluta (2nd guitar/vocals). The list of influences is a who's who of power pop; Cheap Trick, The Posies, Jellyfish, and Superdrag.It's been a long time since The Glad Machine's self titled album, but thankfully the quartet from Northampton Massachussets have lost none of their chops. Indeed, there's even more variety on "Hey". The group sound and blend as well as ever and the diversions are interesting and beautifully played.Brad Thayer is still well in Robin Zander territory and the band's default is somewhere between Cheap Trick and Sloan, but the subtleties are more evident on "Hey." Eight songs, eight big choruses, wonderfully produced, "Hey" is an album of songs that rock out, but also two slower affairs that show a very different side of The Glad Machine. The best part is that we have even newer music to look forward to from THE GLAD MACHINE!!! Thanks for listening!!! Please Follow us on Instagram @hiddentracks99Pre and Post roll music brought to you by @sleepcyclespa

If you're like us, you need more Cheap Trick in your life. Thankfully, Ross Warner is here with his new book, American Standard: Cheap Trick from the bars to the Budokan and Beyond. It's a look at one of the great American bands and tries to sort fact from fiction. Ross is a passionate guy when it comes to pop culture, so, of course, we got along like a house on fire.American Standard: Cheap Trick from the bars to the Budokan and Beyond is available right now from Backbeat books.

Send us some Fan Mail? Yes please!Dr. George S. Maurer, Ed.D. grew up in Toms River, New Jersey and currently resides near Temecula, California. He is a retired Air Force Master Sergeant who deployed to Iraq during the Global War on Terrorism. He's an award-winning broadcast journalist with more than 35 years of experience who has interviewed high profile guests such as Sammy Hagar, Pat Benatar, Dan Ackroyd, Gene Simmons, Paul Stanley, Robin Zander and many more. Dr. Maurer enjoys RV travel with his fiancé, Adriana. He's a connoisseur of pizza, cheese steak and sub sandwiches and is a die-hard fan of the New York Giants. Dr. Maurer also enjoys California's wine culture.Connect with George: PodMatch & Amazon. . Subscribe, rate us 5, come join in all the other fun we offer, but most of all we hope you enjoy! If you liked this, and want to hear more, give us a follow and let us know! Or maybe you just want to tell us how awful we are? Comments help the algorithm, and we love to see ‘em! And as always, don't kill the messenger. ~Beloved Sponsors~Exotic Fridge Join our DISCORD server!! Whiskey Fund (help support our podcast habit!): PayPalOur Patreon & YouTube Connect with Hermes: Instagram & Twitter Connect with Morpheus: Instagram & Twitter Support the Show.

Jeremy AsbrockHe plays guitar for Ace Frehley AND Gene Simmons in their respective solo bands -- obviously quite the rocket ride for any lifelong KISS fan. Jeremy Asbrock joins us to discuss his band Rock City Machine Co., touring with his childhood idols (and the songs they wouldn't play), his favorite KISS deep cuts, jamming with Robin Zander and how he was secretly “ripped” during Ace Frehley's “Cherry Medicine” video.Created and Produced by Jared Tuten

If there's anything more American than great pop rock, than we don't know it. And if there's anything better than Cheap Trick when you're talking great pop rock, well, you need to get your head examined. And when it comes to Cheap Trick, the second generation of insanely wonderful songwriting is emerging.You know Robin Taylor Zander's dad's work, but wait until you check out Robin. His debut record is a beautiful album, and you know us, we aren't going to lie to you about this sort of thing. So whether you're out by the pool this 4th, or just trying to stay cool, cue up Robin's record and enjoy. You can thank us later.“The Distance” is available to stream now. Check out Robin's website or follow him on Facebook.Your Most Interesting StoryEveryone has at least one fascinating story. We help them tell it. Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

Send us a Text Message.Welcome to artist record your ultimate intimate conversation with your favorite artist…"When you think about rock ‘n' roll, this man *is* rock ‘n' roll. From the grooves to the lyrics, the songs to the anthems, his music defines an era that will never be forgotten. Today, in the hot seat, we have the legendary Ian Hunter. Ian has just released a new album, **'Part Two,'** featuring an incredible lineup of guest artists such as Chris Robinson and Rich Robinson of the Black Crowes, Joe Elliott and Phil Collins of Def Leppard, Robin Zander, Rick Nielsen, and Tom Petersson of Cheap Trick. This album also includes a special tribute to Jeff Beck, featuring recordings with Jeff Beck, Johnny Depp, and Lucinda Williams.We're diving into all of it right now, so don't touch that dial! And don't forget to put your comments down below — we always love to hear from you.Links to order the album are in our description, so make sure you check that out."➜https://amzn.to/3ReuSxc****************************************************"Support your favorite show and channel! Click the link below to donate. Don't forget to include your name for a special shoutout. Thank you!"*MEMBERS ONLY➜https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpDurwXKpDiXuGBdsklxigg/join*MERCH STORE➜https://adika-live.creator-spring.com*PATREON➜ https://www.patreon.com/The_adika_group?fan_landing=*PAYPAL TIP JAR➜ https://www.paypal.me/stephenadika1*AMAZON WISHLIST ➜ https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/30GQNR69L9048?ref_=wl_share* The New Website ➜ https://www.adikalive.com/Theme Song - Mark SlaughterWebsite:  ➜ https://www.markslaughter.com/Support the Show.

Cheap Trick drummer Daxx Nielsen looks back on his musical career and shares his personal and professional insights on the 'In The Trenches' podcast. With an impressive musical background, Daxx talks about his influences, journey in the industry, and drumming techniques, alongside his bandmates Rick Nielsen and Robin Zander. Join us for an exclusive look into the life of Cheap Trick's drummer. Don't miss this exciting episode with Daxx Nielsen! Episode No. 7139 ✔️SET THE REMINDER! Don't forget to Like & Subscribe! For more information about Daxx Nielsen follow his Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/cheaptrickdaxx/ For more information about Cheap Trick follow their Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/cheaptrick/ Cheap Trick - Surrender (from Budokan!) ▶ https://youtu.be/ZbkypX1OhZ0 For more information about Ryan Roxie follow his Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/ryanroxie and In The Trenches visit: https://ryanroxie.com/podcast ***Roxie's Enjoy The Riff*** Watch this space

Tom Petersson is a musician best known as the bassist and co-founder of the iconic rock band Cheap Trick. Born in Rockford, Illinois, Petersson's musical journey began at an early age when he picked up the guitar. However, he later transitioned to bass guitar, a move that would define his signature sound and role in shaping Cheap Trick's distinctive style. In the early 70s, Petersson co-founded Cheap Trick with guitarist Rick Nielsen, drummer Bun E. Carlos, and vocalist Robin Zander. The band quickly gained recognition for their high-energy performances, catchy melodies, and fusion of hard rock, pop, and punk influences. Petersson's melodic basslines became a hallmark of Cheap Trick's sound, adding depth and groove to their music. Throughout his career with Cheap Trick, Petersson has been a key contributor to the band's success, both in the studio and on stage. His innovative bass playing can be heard on many of the band's hit songs, including "Surrender," "I Want You to Want Me," "Dream Police," and "The Flame." In addition to his work with Cheap Trick, Petersson has collaborated with various artists and pursued solo projects. He released a solo album titled "Tom Petersson & Another Language" in 1984, showcasing his versatility as a musician beyond the confines of Cheap Trick's sound. Petersson's influence extends beyond his musical contributions. His distinctive 12-string bass guitar, custom-built by Hamer Guitars, has become iconic in the rock world, inspiring generations of bassists. He is also known for popularizing the use of the 12-string bass in rock music, pushing the boundaries of the instrument and paving the way for its acceptance in mainstream rock. Over the years, Petersson and Cheap Trick have received numerous accolades and awards, including inductions into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2016. Despite lineup changes and the evolving music industry, Petersson remains an integral part of Cheap Trick's enduring legacy, continuing to tour and record with the band, captivating audiences with his dynamic bass playing and infectious stage presence. Tom Petersson's contributions to rock music and his enduring influence on bassists worldwide solidify his status as a legendary figure in the annals of rock history. I hope you will enjoy Tom Peterrson's story. For more information about Tom and Cheap Trick head for the band's website http://www.cheaptrick.com/ or https://watch.countrymusichalloffame.org/videos/tom-petersson-of-cheap-trick-demonstrates-gretsch-white-falcon If you'd like to request a future guest for the show, please get in touch with me through my website https://www.abreathoffreshair.com.au

Awesome interview with Robin Taylor Zander, he's the son of Robin Zander. We talk about being a part of Cheap Trick, his influences and his new album "The Distance".

The Mike Calta Show Featured Cut

Robin Taylor Zander talks:-New Solo effort-How he played EVERY instrument on his new album-Did his father Robin Zander give him advice cutting this album-Recording in a 19th century home in Upstate NY-He played every instrument in Cheap Trick at one point-His hat collectionHigh and Low on YouTube 

Robin Taylor Zander joins Ralph Sutton and James Mattern and they discuss Robin Taylor Zander trying to avoid the opinion of nepotism, starting to tour with Cheap Trick in 2017, his relationship with the other kids of the original Cheap Trick members, realizing his dad was different from other dad's, growing up with amazing musicians such as Joe Perry and how he avoided becoming entitled, a live performance of What Am I To Do, Cheap Trick going back to the studio, Robin Taylor Zander's favorite moment performing with Cheap Trick, Robin Taylor Zander's first concert, first drug and first sexual experience and so much more!(Air Date: May 20th, 2023)Support our sponsors!YoKratom.com - Check out Yo Kratom (the home of the $60 kilo) for all your kratom needs!mangorx.com - Use promo code: GAS15 to get 15% off your first order!To advertise your product or service on GaS Digital podcasts please go to TheADSide.comand click on "Advertisers" for more information!The SDR Show merchandise is available at https://podcastmerch.com/collections/the-sdr-showYou can watch The SDR Show LIVE for FREE every Wednesday and Saturday at 9pm ET at GaSDigitalNetwork.com/LIVEOnce you're there you can sign up at GaSDigitalNetwork.com with promo code: SDR for a 7-day FREE trial with access to every SDR show ever recorded! On top of that you'll also have the same access to ALL the shows that GaS Digital Network has to offer!Follow the whole show on social media!Robin Taylor ZanderLink Tree: https://linktr.ee/rtzmusicWebsite: http://robintaylorzander.com/Ralph SuttonTwitter: https://twitter.com/iamralphsuttonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamralphsutton/James L. MatternTwitter: https://twitter.com/jameslmatternInstagram: https://instagram.com/thejamesmatternThe SDR ShowTwitter: https://twitter.com/theSDRshowInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thesdrshow/GaS Digital NetworkTwitter: https://twitter.com/gasdigitalInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/gasdigital/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Dumb Ass News - A fight between brothers included frozen chicken being used as a weapon. (0:00) AJ was barefoot for Stunt or Stupid, for every 5th-grade science question he could not answer he had to snap a toe in a mouse trap. (2:08) Robin Taylor Zander called Chaz and AJ to talk about his latest album, which includes some big producer names from the rock world. Plus, his experience growing up around rock royalty, touring with his father Robin Zander and Cheap Trick. (9:35) Dumb Ass News - How could a woman have been run over by her own car? Plus, the surprising response from police to the accident. (17:40)

On this episode I play show reviews from Lars Lenova and Chuck Speer, talk about the Aerosmith Peace Out tour and more. Music by : Ravagers Ginger Wildheart Cheap Trick Hangmen Listen to all of these bands on Amazon Music and I get a kickback. Donate to the show – Rock and Roll Geek Friends […]

In this episode Phil Lewis returns to the podcast. Phil talks about LA Guns new album Black Diamonds, the virtuosity of Tracii Guns, the grittiness of Ace Von Johnson, the greatness of Johnny Martin, channeling Robert Plant on “Gonna Lose”, his long love for Alice Cooper, Donnie Vie. Rod Stewart, The Faces, the vast differences between recording now and in the 80s, the Cocked and Loaded catering budget, Robin Zander, Cheap Trick, Rammstein, Rival Sons, The Struts, performing acoustic, and a ton more! Thanks for listening, and please share! #podcast #allkillernofiller #phil lewis #LAguns This episode is brought to you by DEB Concerts. Follow DEB on Facebook and Twitter to get updates on upcoming shows, and more! This episode is also brought to you by Med Pharm. Follow their Facebook page and visit medpharmok.com to find out why they are “Cannabis With a Cause.” 30% of profits go towards building no-kill animal shelters in the area. They have a wide selection of products, and they have a doctor on site every Friday and Saturday. Mention Thunder Underground and receive 10% off on your first purchase! This episode is also brought to you by Sunset Tattoo Tulsa. Sunset Tattoo has over 25 years of experience, and is located at 3146 E. 15th St. in Tulsa, OK. They are state licensed and Mother approved! The tattoos are "Done Good and Proper" so be sure to like their facebook page for more details. Become a Thunder Underground #patron on Patreon: www.patreon.com/thunderunderground Stream us anytime everywhere podcasts are heard.

FRIDAY HR 5 Robin Zander lead singer for Cheap Trick calls the Monsters!! K.O.D. - His highness catches up with the official Monsters Photog Jay Vladimir. Monsters BOTW - Clermont Brewing Company - Red Ale

This week LC & Bakko debate Water Parks vs. National Parks. Chris Cornell sings a couple of Ones. Cate Blanchett dismisses metal. Margot Robbie defends it. Bakko takes a cheap shot at Robin Zander. Ground Hog Day comes up for some reason. The Fappening. Ugly Kid Joe tours the US for the 1st time in 27 years. A Metal Fest bans backing tracks. They pay their respects to Van Conner, David Crosby & Jeff Beck. Pantheon Podcasts Reach out to us! Rate, review and subscribe at Apple Podcasts: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show on Apple Podcasts Join our fanpage on Facebook: (2) Cobras ON Fire: Private Group | Facebook Click like and follow on Facebook: (2) Cobras & Fire: Rock Podcast | Chicago IL | Facebook Follow us on Twitter: Best Hard Rock & Metal Podcast (@CobrasFire) / Twitter Subscribe to our YouTube channel: Cobras & Fire Rock Podcast - YouTube Email us: loosebakko@gmail.com Buy a shirt!:"Cobras and Fire Podcast" T-shirt for Sale by CobrasandFire | Redbubble | cobras and fire t-shirts - cobras fire t-shirts Stitcher: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show on Stitcher Spreaker: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show | Listen to Podcasts On Demand Free | TuneIn Find it all here: Cobras and Fire Podcast - Comedy Rock Talk Show Music: Blackberry Smoke - Let Me Help You Find The Door Chris Cornell - One Black Stone Cherry - Out Of Pocket The Bronx - Style Over Everything Ugly Kid Joe - Failure Classless Act - This Is For You Screaming Trees - Dollar Bill Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week LC & Bakko debate Water Parks vs. National Parks. Chris Cornell sings a couple of Ones. Cate Blanchett dismisses metal. Margot Robbie defends it. Bakko takes a cheap shot at Robin Zander. Groundhog Day comes up for some reason. The Fappening. Ugly Kid Joe tours the US for the 1st time in 27 years. A Metal Fest bans backing tracks. And we pay our respects to Van Conner, David Crosby & Jeff Beck. Pantheon Podcasts Reach out to us! Rate, review and subscribe at Apple Podcasts: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show on Apple Podcasts Join our fanpage on Facebook: (2) Cobras ON Fire: Private Group | Facebook Click like and follow on Facebook: (2) Cobras & Fire: Rock Podcast | Chicago IL | Facebook Follow us on Twitter: Best Hard Rock & Metal Podcast (@CobrasFire) / Twitter Subscribe to our YouTube channel: Cobras & Fire Rock Podcast - YouTube Email us: loosebakko@gmail.com Buy a shirt!:"Cobras and Fire Podcast" T-shirt for Sale by CobrasandFire | Redbubble | cobras and fire t-shirts - cobras fire t-shirts Stitcher: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show on Stitcher Spreaker: Cobras & Fire: Comedy / Rock Talk Show | Listen to Podcasts On Demand Free | TuneIn Find it all here: Cobras and Fire Podcast - Comedy Rock Talk Show Music: Blackberry Smoke - Let Me Help You Find The Door Chris Cornell - One Black Stone Cherry - Out Of Pocket The Bronx - Style Over Everything Ugly Kid Joe - Failure Classless Act - This Is For You Screaming Trees - Dollar Bill Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a special complete episode featuring the great Power Pop band Cheap Trick. The band wore it's 1960's influences openly and you can hear instances of The Move, The Who, The Kinks and especially, The Beatles. They carried the sound and spirit of the 60s into the 70s and beyond. Please feel free to donate or Tip the show at sonictyme@yahoo.comPlease have a look at these special interest sites.If you would, please make a donation of love and hope to St. Jude Children's HospitalMake an impact on the lives of St. Jude kids - St. Jude Children's Research Hospital (stjude.org)Get your Vegan Collagen Gummies from Earth & Elle, available thru Amazon at this link.Amazon.com: Earth & Elle Vegan Collagen Gummies - Non-GMO Biotin Gummies, Vitamin A, E, C - Plant Based Collagen Supplements for Healthier Hair, Skin, Nails - 60 Chews of Orange Flavored Gummies, Made in USA : Health & HouseholdKathy Bushnell Website for Emily Muff bandHome | Kathy Bushnell | Em & MooListen to previous shows at the main webpage at:https://www.buzzsprout.com/1329053Pamela Des Barres Home page for books, autographs, clothing and online writing classes.Pamela Des Barres | The Official Website of the Legendary Groupie and Author (pameladesbarresofficial.com)Listen to more music by Laurie Larson at:Home | Shashké Music and Art (laurielarson.net)View the most amazing paintings by Marijke Koger-Dunham (Formally of the 1960's artists collective, "The Fool").Psychedelic, Visionary and Fantasy Art by Marijke Koger (marijkekogerart.com)For unique Candles have a look at Stardust Lady's Etsy shopWhere art and armor become one where gods are by TwistedByStardust (etsy.com)For your astrological chart reading, contact Astrologer Tisch Aitken at:https://www.facebook.com/AstrologerTisch/Tarot card readings by Kalinda available atThe Mythical Muse | FacebookEmma Bonner-Morgan Facebook music pageThe Music Of Emma Bonner-Morgan | FacebookFor booking Children's parties and character parties in the Los Angeles area contact Kalinda Gray at:https://www.facebook.com/wishingwellparties/I'm listed in Feedspot's "Top 10 Psychedelic Podcasts You Must Follow". 

On the latest Jagbags we talk one of the all-time legendary bands of all time: Rock Hall of Famers Cheap Trick. Are they Top 20 ALL-TIME? A hefty designation, and Beave argues why they belong. We talk their albums, their incendiary live performances (At Budokan, Music for Hangovers), their personnel, their best songs, best cover versions and their colorful personalities. We go through the Beatles' influence on the band, where "At Budokan" ranks as far as all-time live albums are concerned, and much much more! It's a JAM PACKED episode! Tune in now.

Cheap Trick singer Robin Zander says he would be willing to stand in with AC/DC on tour if asked, but on one condition -- Brian Johnson, his neighbor in Florida, would have to give his blessing. Zander tells Rolling Stone: "I wouldn't go there as a slap in the face to him. But if he said, 'Go ahead,' I would do it. And I'd donate the money to somebody. They're AC/DC. People want to hear those songs. Sure, they want to hear them with Brian. But if Brian isn't there, they can get someone else. I don't know what else to say, but I know I'd be heartbroken if something happened to me and I couldn't sing in Cheap Trick." Axl Rose has been rumored for the slot, an idea that doesn't sit well with Zander or his bandmate Rick Nielsen. "I don't know about that. That's weird. Malcolm [Young] left, and if he was still there this wouldn't be happening, I don't think. We love Angus [Young] and all that stuff and Brian's my neighbor for god's sake and I'm afraid to walk over and say hello. To see this happen is sort of like a death in the family."

Cheap Trick singer Robin Zander says he would be willing to stand in with AC/DC on tour if asked, but on one condition -- Brian Johnson, his neighbor in Florida, would have to give his blessing. Zander tells Rolling Stone: "I wouldn't go there as a slap in the face to him. But if he said, 'Go ahead,' I would do it. And I'd donate the money to somebody. They're AC/DC. People want to hear those songs. Sure, they want to hear them with Brian. But if Brian isn't there, they can get someone else. I don't know what else to say, but I know I'd be heartbroken if something happened to me and I couldn't sing in Cheap Trick." Axl Rose has been rumored for the slot, an idea that doesn't sit well with Zander or his bandmate Rick Nielsen. "I don't know about that. That's weird. Malcolm [Young] left, and if he was still there this wouldn't be happening, I don't think. We love Angus [Young] and all that stuff and Brian's my neighbor for god's sake and I'm afraid to walk over and say hello. To see this happen is sort of like a death in the family."

Pat welcomes author Brian "BJ" Kramp to the Zoom Room to discuss his fantastic new Cheap Trick book "This Band Has No Past." This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/ROCKSOLID and get on your way to being your best self.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In this episode of Redefining HR, I'm joined by Zander Media's founder and CEO, Robin Zander. We discuss his career path, creativity and digital storytelling, and his work in video production at Zander Media. We also talk about his new documentary, “Parenthood @ Home.”

BJ wrote a book, published by Jawbone Press and available now:https://www.amazon.com/This-Band-Has-No-Past/dp/1911036874For this episode BJ covers some of the podcasts he has been on to promote the book, along with some of the reviews that have come out, then interviews Trouser Press editor Ira Robbins, who shares his thoughts on the book, and also some insights and stories relating to Cheap Trick. Also included is a recording of a casual conversation between Howie Klein and Rick Nielsen and Robin Zander from March 1977.

This week we invite Mike Floros from Love In Chains and SteelCity as well as fellow podcast host Kevin Williams from Inobscuria podcast to join us in another fun rocked out version of Scattergories. Join host Sonny Pooni as he leads the other 3 fools down the path of craziness. WE NEED YOUR HELP!! It's quick, easy, and free - Please consider doing one or all of the following to help grow our audience: Leave Us A Five Star Review in one of the following places: Apple Podcast Podchaser Connect with us  Email us growinuprock@gmail.com Contact Form  Like and Follow Us on FaceBook Follow Us on Twitter Leave Us A Review On Podchaser Join The Growin' Up Rock Loud Minority Facebook Group Do You Spotify? Then Follow us and Give Our Playlist a listen. We update it regularly with kick ass rock n roll Spotify Playlist Buy and Support Music From The Artist We Discuss On This Episode Growin' Up Rock Amazon Store Love In Chains Website Inobscuria Podcast Website Music in this Episode Provided by the Following: Love In Chains, Iron Maiden, Steelheart, Warrant, Steve Stevens, Robin Zander, Billy Sheehan, Matt Sorum, Kevin Dubrow, Tony Franklin, Frank Banali Crank It Up New Music Spotlight Love In Chains If you dig what you are hearing, go pick up the album or some merch., and support these artists. A Special THANK YOU to Restrayned for the Killer Show Intro and transition music!! Restrayned Website

This episode features an interview with author, acrobat and entrepreneur Robin Zander as he discusses the importance of bravery and courage and the impact that the COVID-19 pandemic has had on various marginalized communities. Robin discusses what he learned from creating a video where he returned to his middle school and how the painful experiences in his past have made him the leader that he is today. He also reveals the work that he is doing to develop his voice and how taking singing lessons is helping him embrace his fears. 

Hello and welcome back to the Robin Zander show! Today's guest is Merritt Quisumbing Anderson, an employment attorney, former Head of People at Github, a mother of 3, and founder of Merritt+ Consulting. Merritt also happens to be an adviser to Zander Media, and my dear friend. In this episode, we cover Merritt's history, ranging from her experience as a child of immigrants to how she has built a career advocating for employees, as well as the organizations, she works with. Whether you are building a company or contributing to a company's culture, Merritt's experience across multiple industries has tactics and stories you can use. Learn more at www.robinpzander.com

Chuck Wright is a bass guitarist who has played with Quiet Riot, Alice Cooper, Giuffria and many others. He has a new solo album out now titled “Sheltering Sky” that features a long list of stellar musicians including Jeff Scott Soto, Scotti Hill, Troy Lucketta, and Derek Sherinian. We discuss all this in the interview plus Axl Rose in the bathroom, Robin Zander in a bowling alley, music royalties, social media and more! 0:00:00 - Intro0:00:37 - Facial Hair & Style 0:02:28 - Military School & Rock n Roll 0:04:18 - Jack Bruce's Bass & Memorabilia0:05:45 - Developing Artists & Music Scene0:07:47 - Axl Rose & Guns 'n Roses 0:11:45 - Alice Cooper & Spinal Tap Moments 0:15:30 - Slash & Guitar Feel vs Technicality 0:18:17 - Chuck's New Solo Album 0:22:20 - Throwin' Stones & Negativity 0:26:34 - Jam Night at the Whisky & Robin Zander 0:31:15 - Social Media Use 0:33:32 - The Other Side & Frankie Banali 0:36:00 - Giving Up The Ghost 0:37:00 - Farewell Horizon 0:38:25 - Writing Lyrics 0:40:50 - Cradle of The Sun 0:42:46 - Performing Live 0:46:05 - Current Projects 0:48:02 - Quiet Riot & The Simpsons 0:50:20 - Two Different Quiet Riots 0:52:19 - Background Vocals & Michael Anthony 0:53:15 - Ted Nugent 0:54:40 - No Picks 0:57:10 - Song Royalties  1:00:03 - New Album 1:02:05 - World Central Kitchen 1:03:55 - Outro Chuck Wright website:https://www.chuckwright.comWorld Central Kitchen website:https://wck.orgChuck Shute website:http://chuckshute.comSupport the show

Legendary rock scribe David Wild joins Matt and Jeff to discuss Ringo Starr's Time Takes Time on the brink of the album's 30th anniversary. But that's not all -- David came armed with audio from Ringo Starr and additional audio of a conversation he had with Don Was to revisit Don's experience as one of the producers on Time Takes Time.While David's wife just wants him to listen to more Rick Springfield (that's our flimsy tease for one of the subjects of this episode), we somehow convinced him to tell us about working with Ringo on the new book, Lifted. The book is available now in two different editions, with profits benefiting The Lotus Foundation charity.David has also teamed up with Phil Rosenthal (Everybody Loves Raymond) for the forthcoming podcast, Naked Lunch. He shares plenty of details on that exciting endeavor as well.No worries, he tells plenty of rock and roll war stories also. We had so much fun chatting with David and we're already plotting to get him back.Join the Record Club for additional content related to all of our episodes, including this one. We appreciate your support.Show Notes:David's famous experience trying to interview Van Morrison  David's Bob Dylan storyBob Dylan's Hearts of Fire movie ​​ Ringo Starr - Time Takes Time EPKDavid's experience working on Ringo Starr's new book, Lifted.Ringo Starr on Jimmy KimmelDavid spoke with Don Was for this episodeDavid's Flowers in the Dirt storyPaul McCartney - “Figure of Eight”Paul McCartney - “Distractions”Ringo Starr - “Weight of the World”The Ringo audioRingo Starr - Don't Go Where The Road Don't GoPaul McCartney - “1985”David's Paul McCartney Grammy storyRingo Starr - “Don't Know a Thing About Love”Ringo Starr - “Golden Blunders”Ringo Starr - “In a Heartbeat”Mickey Thomas and Robin Zander are, in fact, awesome.Matt's defense of “We Built This City” Starship - “Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now”Mickey Thomas - Alive AloneElvin Bishop - “Fooled Around and Fell in Love”Jeff's UCR article regarding Jefferson Starship and Starship  David Wild's 1992 Rolling Stone profile on Time Takes Time  Ringo's Old Wave album David's new podcast with Phil RosenthalDavid's appearance on Jimmy Pardo's Never Not Funny 

Adam Hamilton was raised in Shreveport, Louisiana, and began playing drums at the age of three. As a child, Hamilton began aspiring to a professional music career through listening to both his father's records and to the music on the radio. While attending Captain Shreve High school, he experimented heavily with production and engineering and produced demos for local bands in Shreveport. After graduating from high school in 1988, Hamilton moved to Dallas, Texas, and then to Austin to pursue music.While Hamilton was performing at a club in Austin, he met Poison guitarist C.C. DeVille, who invited Hamilton to move to Los Angeles. Hamilton lived in DeVille's home for a time, and played drums in DeVille's post-Poison band The C.C. DeVille Experiment. Other members of this band included Joey C. Jones of 1980s glam metal band Sweet Savage, and Christopher Torak of Liquor Sweet. During the time they were together, The C.C. DeVille Experiment also went by the name The C.C. DeVille Experience. The band, minus DeVille, ended up leaving Los Angeles, relocating to Dallas and Shreveport, and renaming themselves Joey C. Jones and the Glory Hounds, with Hamilton's hometown friend Craig Bradford replacing DeVille on guitar. Joey C. Jones and the Glory Hounds released one self-titled album on Tony Nicole Tony (TNT) Records in 1993; the album featured songs written by C.C. DeVille and by Robin Zander and Rick Nielsen of Cheap Trick.His production work includes many titles released by Cleopatra Records, including albums by Leif Garrett, Dale Bozzio of Missing Persons, Vanilla Ice, and George Lynch. Hamilton also produces and writes music for television, and his work has appeared on Family Guy, The Simpsons, The Osbournes, Six Feet Under, Saturday Night Live, Numb3rs, Gene Simmons Family Jewels, Bones, America's Got Talent, and many others.

Robin Zander is a perpetual founder, creator of Zander Media and Responsive.org. YouTube: https://youtu.be/yCskspsQ788 We jump in and Zander helps set the stage with where he's come from, his history, and what drives him. All with a common point of creating great places to work (sound familiar?). Movement away from Hierarchy towards distributed ways of working. Away from top down control and towards people enacting change. Away from privacy and more towards transparency. Building a great culture. How do you make such a big change to a culture or structure when you're in the middle? You can't. Or maybe there are areas of influence that you start to initiate change. How can you give away your power? Flip the power structure on its head. Maybe approach it as an org within an org. The future of work? How does the rate of change play into it? The ability to respond to change. Not just systems but teams, skills, etc. Change is only going to accelerate. Is a business a Family or a Sports Team? For Zander it's a sports team that he hopes to be playing with for a really long time. He is a leader in service of his team and employees. The future of work really is whatever the organization wants to make it. So how about incentive structures that are out there in particular the difference between public vs. private companies. Probably a little bit beyond his pay grade but Zander certainly recognizes the tension of those incentives and how they affect decision making. Can you really be a responsive organization without continuous learning? No. Hard no. Growing as an individual is how the organization grows. An organization is just a collection of individuals.

This is Day 20 of The Dog Days of Podcasting. I attempt to do a show a day for the month of August. Friend of the show and friend of mine, Michael Street , calls in with a Brush With A Rockstar and I do a track by track review of the new record by […]

Former Spin Magazine editor, world's biggest Cheap Trick fan, and author Doug Brod joins us to discuss his amazing new book, They Just Seem a Little Weird: How Kiss, Cheap Trick, Aerosmith and Starz Remade Rock and Roll. Crucial matters discussed inlude: conflicted feelings over Kiss playing without our beloved Ace Frehley; our mutual devotion to Cheap Trick; how CT bassist Tom Petersson's replacement looked a hell of a lot like Tom Petersson; the profound unlikelihood of Aerosmith's second act in the 90s; why Starz is an important band; and much more.