Podcast appearances and mentions of joe just

in this episode, the Nitro Bro's Have in, 2022 Montee Impossible champ, Joe Shipman! Joe Just got back to the states from France where he competed in one of the gnarliest Hillclimbs in the world, and won on borrowed equipment! We get into his crazy experience and how it all went down. So much fun hearing all the stories from across the pond. Enjoy!

Tyler Hobbs is a generative artist from Austin, Texas. Bill Cresco is a geneticist who specializes in quantitative evolutionary genomics at the University of Oregon. Today Tyler and Bill joined us for a wide-ranging discussion, seeded by the topic of "complexity". The conversation was fascilitated by our two excellent moderators, Anya and Joe. Anya studied studio art and environmental studies at Wellesley College and now works at Reed Hilderbrand, and Joe studied bioengineering at MIT and now works at Ginko Bioworks. The conversation was wide-ranging and compelling, and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did! Learn more about Tyler Hobbs HERE. Learn more about Bill Cresco and his lab HERE. Learn more about the Boston Computation Club HERE. Learn more about Anya HERE. Learn more about Joe: Just kidding, you can't, he is an internet ninja. Watch the video version of this talk HERE.

How To Find A Business Coach Or Mentor with Jordan Montgomery. My discussion with Jordan involved learning about the various types of performance coaches, the styles, how can someone benefit from a coach and why you would need/want one. I enjoyed this honest conversation with Jordan, his ideas and how well he spoke and conveyed his ideas and message. There's a good chance a performance coach could really improve so many things in your life, that it's worth looking into for sure. Thanks for listening! Joe #thejoecostelloshow #montgomerycompanies #performancecoach Jordan Montgomery Owner - Montgomery Companies Website: https://www.montgomerycompanies.com/ Instagram: @jordanmmontgomery Facebook: @montgomerycompanies LinkedIn: @jordanmmontgomery Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Jordan: Hey, Joe, thanks for having me, man. I've been following your work, and I want to say congratulations on all that you've built and continue to build. And it's an honor to have this conversation with you. Thanks. Joe: Hey, Jordan, welcome to the podcast. Man, I'm glad you're here. I'm excited to talk with you. Jordan: Well, Joe: Thanks Jordan: I appreciate Joe: For coming. Jordan: That question and I'll try to be succinct with my answer, but I grew up in southeast Iowa and a little town called Colonia in Kelowna is the smallest Joe: Thank you, man, I appreciate Jordan: One of the smallest Joe: It. 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Jordan: So Joe: So Jordan: I live in Iowa Joe: The stage Jordan: City, Joe: Is Jordan: Iowa, Joe: Yours. Jordan: Actually just outside of Iowa City and a little small town called Tiffin with my wife Ashley and our three daughters. My wife today runs the business. I run my mouth. We have a full scale coaching and consulting firm, Montgomery Companies. We have several coaching partners, and today we serve several thousand coaching clients. Those clients range from professional athletes to entrepreneurs and salespeople. We do work with some executive leaders at some larger firms. And I just have a blast getting to do what I do. And I meet some really interesting people. We get to help people think more deeply about who they are and where they're headed. And ultimately you get to help people live into who they were created to be. And it's a tremendous blessing. So I had a career in the financial services business, allowed me to pivot into this world pretty open about my professional journey. But at the end of the day, I graduated college 2010 and University of Iowa spent the last 11 years really building a skill set that's allowed us to build a business around coaching, consulting and leading people. So that's kind of the short version of my story. Obviously, there's a lot of twists and turns and gods provide a lot of grace. Jordan: Certainly I've been thankful to be around a lot of the right people. But if you're asking me the short version on how I got to where I'm at today, that's the the short version on Jordan Montgomery. Yeah, I think my dad, at the end of the day, my dad was a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I wanted to model that. I wanted to be a family man with a business, not a business man with a family. And I think as a driven type, a young man living in America, I kind of fight that every day. I mean, at the other day, like my wife and my kids are my top priority. But if I say they're my top priority, then that needs to show up in my calendar and that needs to be reflected in how I spend my time. And I want to be respected the most by people who know me the best. And that means that I'm a father first. I'm a husband first. I'm leading my family well. And if I lead inside the walls of my home, then I think I can lead in other areas of my life Joe: Cool. Jordan: As well. But Joe: So Jordan: I just didn't want to be Joe: First Jordan: The guy Joe: Of Jordan: That Joe: All, I love the part Jordan: Built Joe: Where you Jordan: Something Joe: Said Jordan: Professionally Joe: That because your father Jordan: But Joe: Was Jordan: Then Joe: Able Jordan: Sacrificed Joe: To make it, Jordan: Or Joe: You Jordan: Compromised Joe: Gravitated Jordan: In really other Joe: Towards Jordan: Important Joe: That Jordan: Areas Joe: Feeling Jordan: Of life. 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Not a lot of people have said that in the past on the show when they when they said, oh, I became an entrepreneur because and it was all of these other reasons. But to actually associate it with your father sitting on the sidelines, watching you play sports and concert or whatever it might be, that was really cool. Jordan: Well, and I'll say this to Joe, because there are some entrepreneurs listening that maybe don't have that flexibility, like maybe you're truly in a situation where you've got a team or your businesses in an industry that requires you to work certain hours or whatever. So that's not a shame or guilt. Anyone who's working really hard to provide, because at the end of the day, entrepreneurs are called to work longer hours is just part of the deal. So if you're in that grind right now, here's what I'd encourage you with, is somebody that's going to change and the reason that you're doing what you're doing right now, the reason that you're working as hard as you're working right now is to have the flexibility and the autonomy. And, you know, I also wasn't there for my dad's early years. Like, I missed you know, I was born when my dad was eight to 10 years into being an entrepreneur. So he earned that flexibility. So let's just not forget that that flexibility is earned. And that looks different for every entrepreneur based on the industry Joe: Yeah, that Jordan: That Joe: Was Jordan: You're Joe: Really Jordan: In Joe: Cool, and I Jordan: And Joe: Came Jordan: This Joe: From Jordan: Stage Joe: An entrepreneurial Jordan: Of Joe: Family as well. Jordan: The business Joe: The Jordan: That Joe: Unfortunate Jordan: You're in. Joe: Thing for Jordan: So Joe: Me is that Jordan: I think Joe: My Jordan: That's Joe: Father Jordan: Important to Joe: Could Jordan: Underscore. Joe: Not attend most of my stuff. So when you said it, it kind of hit home and I hold nothing. He's passed on at this point. But I never held a grudge because he just he worked his butt off and and just to provide and create something great. So it never struck me the other way. It wasn't Jordan: Yeah. Joe: Like I was resentful over it. But I just love the way you framed that whole thing. That was really cool. Jordan: Well, yeah, you know, I just I fell in love with sports at a really early age. I just love competition. I loved competing. I love watching other people compete. I love the atmosphere. I love the energy that goes into a sports competition. I'm still the guy, Joe. Like, I will watch one shining moment at the end of the final four for those who are familiar with that show. I cry every year when I watch that one shining, but that little three minute clip. And I think part of the reason I get emotional about that as you watch young people get emotional over competition. And I just loved the rush of competition. I loved watching people give their all to a very specific activity, blood, sweat and tears. And Joe: Yeah, absolutely, Jordan: So Joe: I totally Jordan: I just fell Joe: Agree Jordan: In love with sports Joe: And Jordan: At a young Joe: I'm Jordan: Age. Joe: Still Jordan: I played Joe: Working Jordan: Sports Joe: Like Jordan: All the way Joe: Crazy, Jordan: Through high school. Joe: But Jordan: I did Joe: It's Jordan: Not compete Joe: Just Jordan: In college. Joe: Because Jordan: And Joe: I Jordan: It's something Joe: Don't Jordan: That's Joe: Say no Jordan: Kind Joe: And Jordan: Of Joe: I Jordan: Interesting Joe: Just keep Jordan: About Joe: Adding Jordan: My story Joe: More and more Jordan: And background. Joe: To my plate. 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But you get paid and your best to show you get paid really, really, really well to be prepared Joe: Hmm. Jordan: In small little windows of time. And so I developed the sort of fascination or obsession with helping athletes prepare and be at their best when that small window of opportunity presents itself and, you know, your clutch, your clutch when you can show up and do normal things. In an abnormal times, so like Derek Jeter, Kobe Bryant, you know, they're considered clutch because at the end of the day, they could show up normal. They could just be who they were because they had practiced so much in the most important windows of time. And it's a really interesting metaphor that we can apply to all of life. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's it's a pursuit of excellence, right, and you know, I'm reading a book right now by Tim Grover, The Unforgiving Race to Greatness, and it's called Winning. And, Joe: Yeah, it's Jordan: You know, there's Joe: And Jordan: So much of what Tim Joe: Again, Jordan: Grover preaches Joe: People Jordan: That I Joe: That Jordan: Really love. Joe: Maybe Jordan: I'm Joe: Just Jordan: Not Joe: Watch sports casually Jordan: Maybe not aligned Joe: Don't Jordan: With one Joe: Understand Jordan: Hundred percent of it, Joe: The Jordan: But Joe: Grueling Jordan: Winning has a price, Joe: Effort Jordan: You know, in Joe: In the lifelong Jordan: Pursuing your Joe: Commitment Jordan: Calling has a price Joe: To potentially Jordan: Regardless Joe: Never, Jordan: Of what you do, Joe: Ever Jordan: You know, sports or otherwise. Joe: Getting Jordan: If you're an Joe: That Jordan: Athlete, Joe: Chance Jordan: Great. But Joe: In Jordan: If Joe: The sports Jordan: You're an entrepreneur, Joe: World and Jordan: There's going to Joe: Used Jordan: Be a cost Joe: To have some really good friends Jordan: Associated Joe: On the Buffalo Jordan: With Joe: Bills Jordan: Your calling. Joe: Football team because Jordan: And Joe: I went to college Jordan: I Joe: Out Jordan: Think Joe: There Jordan: Sports is the epitome Joe: And Jordan: Of that. Joe: I was Jordan: But certainly Joe: A musician. Jordan: Entrepreneurship Joe: I was Jordan: Is Joe: In a band. Jordan: Is Joe: They Jordan: Right Joe: Loved Jordan: There Joe: Our band and they used Jordan: With being Joe: To come Jordan: With being Joe: And Jordan: An athlete Joe: Hang Jordan: In Joe: Out. Jordan: Terms Joe: We've got Jordan: Of Joe: The dinner with Jordan: Making Joe: Them and Jordan: Sacrifice. Joe: You would hear the stories. And it's just to live on the edge of not knowing if you're playing or you're sitting each day and who's who's looking for your spot and the work so hard and give up so much from a really young age all the way through. It's unbelievable. You know, and I watch certain friends here in Arizona, believe it or not, Arizona has got a very big hockey base. You know, like fans love hockey. And there's a lot of kids that come here, play hockey, play on the farm team of the coyotes or and we've had friends that had their kids just go through all in hockey. Moms and dads have the worst it's the worst schedule I've ever seen. And to go all the way to the very end and be on the farm team and never get called up. And I can't even imagine that it's just grueling. Jordan: Yeah, well, you know, there's there's a lot that goes into speaking, right, speaking as an art form, and in today's world, attention is currency. So something we think about a lot and the keynote speaking world is you've got Joe: Mm Jordan: To Joe: Hmm. Jordan: Keep people's attention. And if you can't, you're out, you're done. You'll never be the really high demand keynote speaker if you don't know how to keep somebody's attention. So there's multiple ways that we do that. One of the ways that we keep people's attention is through story. It's a story sell facts, tell. When you get really good Joe: Yeah, Jordan: At telling stories, Joe: Yeah, I Jordan: You keep Joe: Agree. Jordan: People's attention. Joe: Ok, Jordan: In Joe: So Jordan: Fact, Joe: Enough about sports. Jordan: If I Joe: I Jordan: Were to Joe: Watched Jordan: Tell you about Joe: The video Jordan: My business, Joe: Of Jordan: If Joe: You Jordan: I were Joe: Working Jordan: To say, well, Joe: With Jordan: You know, Joe, Joe: The Hawkeyes Jordan: These are the five Joe: And Jordan: Things that I do my Joe: I Jordan: Business, or Joe: Was watching as Jordan: If Joe: The Jordan: I said, hey, Joe: Camera Jordan: Joe, Joe: Went around the room, I Jordan: Let Joe: Was Jordan: Me tell Joe: Watching Jordan: You a story. Joe: To see how intently Jordan: The minute I said, I'll Joe: The Jordan: Tell Joe: Players Jordan: You a story, Joe: Were listening Jordan: I would actually Joe: To you. Jordan: Activate Joe: And Jordan: Your brain Joe: Like I was Jordan: At 12 Joe: Watching Jordan: Times Joe: Their eyes Jordan: The Joe: And Jordan: Capacity. 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And then the other thing I think about is being really you centered in the message being you centered. So I'm going to use two people's names. I'm going to pick people out in the crowd. I'm going to touch people, maybe even on the shoulder or the arm as I'm speaking. And I'm going to move through the crowd. And so much of communication is nonverbal, right? 90 percent is nonverbal. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. And it's also not what you say. It's what people hear and it's what they remember. Maya Angelou famously said it's not what you say that people remember. It's how you make them feel. And so I try to stay really in tune with how I make people feel. A lot of that is my energy, my body language. It's you focus communication, it's telling stories, and it's the difference between connecting and communicating. So if you're listening and you're thinking about your communication style or maybe you want to develop your craft as a keynote speaker, those are a few things that you could consider. Jordan: And I'll say this to Joe. I'm a long way away from where I want to be. I got a long way to go. So those are things that I think about repetitiously. And I get obsessed with the practice of my craft. And I'm evaluating and observing high level keynote speakers. You know, how do they move? What do they say? What do they not say? You know, their pace, their tonality, the way that they tell stories, their presence. Yeah, those are all things that I'm paying attention to. So I appreciate your kind words. I think communication as an art form is no different than playing an instrument or doing a dance. And for anybody that's in sales, for any entrepreneur, if you're not taking that seriously as you develop and grow your business, that's something to really consider and think about. Because whether you're speaking to an audience of one hundred or a thousand or an audience of five or ten, you're in the human connection business before you're in the construction business or before you're in the marketing business or financial planning business or real estate business. We've got to remember that the human connection is at the center of everything that we do. Well, thank you. It's kind of you to say. I did and I went to school for interdepartmental studies, which is a fancy way to cover recreational management, so I literally wanted to go to school, have a great social experience, and then start a business and the fitness world. Jordan: That was kind of my dream. And so I took some entrepreneurial courses, got a degree in recreation management, fell into finance and in two things were true. I didn't want to have a boss, so I went to work for myself and I wanted to create my own schedule that that was it. I want to call my shots, create my own schedule. But I didn't have any money and I didn't have any experience. And so I fell into financial services because it allowed me to be in business for myself, but not by myself. So I had a great support system. It was kind of like a franchise model, had a lot of success in that world at an early stage, had a big event in my life in twenty fifteen that really have me thinking about my future in a deeper way. And then I decided to pivot into sort of the consulting and coaching world making financial planning, kind of our kind of our core client. And so in a very early stage in a coaching business, financial advisers were some of our first clients by way of my background in the financial planning world. Joe: Yeah, and you do it incredibly well, my friend. So thank you. So let's just backtrack really quickly so that I can get the progression from college into starting this company. So did you go to school for finance? Jordan: I think it's so true Joe: Ok. Jordan: In life and in business, definitely in entrepreneurship, where we're leading people, that more is caught than taught. Joe: Ok. Jordan: And so nobody really taught me how to coach. But I watched other people coach and I watched other people in my industry that do what I'm doing now, do it at a really high level. And again, I paid attention to quality of life. I paid attention to the relationships. I paid attention to the way that they manage their decisions and manage their time. And I thought, you know, I want to do that. I think I can do that. And I actually did it in tandem with my own financial planning. And so I started sort of coaching on the side and I had really been coaching all the while I was in financial planning and some aspect working with clients. But I also started getting asked to speak and do workshops. And so I sort of fell in love with that work, Joe. But the reality is I had a couple of mentors. I had some key people in my life that had done that work in a really high level. One of those people is a guy by the name of Ben Newman. Another guy is John Wright Senior. And they both had Joe: How did Jordan: Big Joe: Coaching Jordan: Coaching Joe: Catch your Jordan: Practices Joe: Eye, or Jordan: Working with Joe: Was it because Jordan: Professional Joe: You were Jordan: Athletes Joe: Just taking Jordan: And Fortune Joe: From Jordan: 500 Joe: Your Jordan: Executive Joe: Love of Jordan: Leaders. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: Being a coach? Right. Jordan: I just Joe: I Jordan: Admired Joe: Mean, just Jordan: The work. Joe: Taking Jordan: I thought, Joe: That, Jordan: You know, Joe: But Jordan: I think Joe: Now Jordan: I Joe: Saying, Jordan: Can Joe: Ok, Jordan: Do that. Joe: Wait, Jordan: I got a lot to learn, Joe: I want Jordan: But Joe: To do a little Jordan: I'll Joe: Bit Jordan: Learn Joe: Of that Jordan: As I Joe: With Jordan: Go. Joe: Sports Jordan: And Joe: People. I want to do that with Jordan: Just Joe: Entrepreneurs. Jordan: Like you or any Joe: I want Jordan: Other Joe: To do Jordan: Entrepreneur, Joe: It with Jordan: You Joe: With Jordan: Kind Joe: Business Jordan: Of dive headfirst Joe: People. Jordan: And just Joe: I mean, Jordan: Hope Joe: What Jordan: It works Joe: Made Jordan: Out. Joe: You Jordan: So Joe: Wake up one day and Jordan: Our Joe: Say, Jordan: Business Joe: Yeah, Jordan: Grew Joe: I Jordan: Rapidly, Joe: Want to do coaching and Jordan: By Joe: I Jordan: God's Joe: Want to Jordan: Grace, Joe: Do it Jordan: Into Joe: In Jordan: The help Joe: This Jordan: Of a lot Joe: Form? Jordan: Of good people. And I woke up one day and I thought, you know what? I could leave my financial planning business based on what we built in the coaching business. And then we started to add more partners and multiply our efforts through other people. And that's when it really starts to get financed, when you can impact the world or you can impact the world around you through the people that work with you. So virtually everybody on our team right now, with the exception of maybe two to three people there in the coaching business, so their coaching partners, so they're leading, they're doing coaching and consulting work, either individual coaching group, coaching, keynote speaking, they're all contracted out. So some of them have five clients, some of them have 30 clients. We have a couple that have just a couple of clients and they're all sort of specialized. So we have some former professional athletes. We have some people that came from the ministry world. So they're actually pastors or they have been pastors. And then we have some people in the world of sales. We have some real estate agents and financial advisers. Some of them are very technical. Somebody might say a more motivational, but all of them are for hire as coaching partners. It's my job to lead them and make sure that they're getting what they need from a content standpoint and also just keeping them connected to to a vision and and keeping them connected to our company. But we're having a ton of fun. I mean, it's it's awesome to be on a team. It's fun to be a part of something that's bigger than just me. And, you know, each one of them is unique in terms of what they bring to the table. Joe: So that's a great segue because you do have a fairly Jordan: You Joe: Sizable Jordan: Know, what's Joe: Team. Jordan: Most important Joe: So Jordan: To us, Joe, Joe: What Jordan: Is that Joe: Do those Jordan: We all Joe: Team Jordan: Have Joe: Members Jordan: Similar Joe: Do Jordan: Values, Joe: For you? Jordan: So I want to give people the freedom and flexibility to be autonomous and how they work with clients. And so I've never told somebody, hey, here's the five step plan. Here's exactly what you have to do. Now, I'll make some general suggestions about the way that we lead people and care for people. But at the end of the day, most of the people that are on our coaching platform have been wildly successful in other arenas. And so they've been leading. They've been coaching. They've been training and developing people. So I think we're aligned in terms of our values. But beyond that, I want them to really operate in their true giftedness. And for some of them, that giftedness is in listening. You know, for some of them, it's in the world of neuroscience. You know, they just really understand how the brain works for others. They're just big on accountability, the kind like the bulldog that's in your face. It's really intense and motivational. So we want people to be who they are. We want them to have strong values, which for us means their faith filled and family oriented. And if they're faith filled, family oriented, others focus. They're usually a good fit for our coaching Joe: Did Jordan: Practice. Joe: They follow Jordan: And then, of course, Joe: A Jordan: There Joe: Certain Jordan: Are some other criteria Joe: Structure Jordan: That we want to Joe: That Jordan: Vet Joe: You Jordan: Out. Joe: Have Jordan: But Joe: Set up Jordan: That's Joe: So Jordan: A that's Joe: That Jordan: A good question. Joe: When someone hires one of those people, they know that if they're getting the quality of the Montgomery companies coach and there's a certain structure formula, something like that? The. Jordan: Yeah. Yeah, I would say that's that's very true of of our team, I think we're well positioned to help just about anybody in any industry with any problem. You know, there's a few that we would say, hey, we're not not licensed to do that. We're not going to dive into that space. But for the most part, if it is in the world of performance sales and driving results, there's somebody on our team that can handle the issue of the opportunity. Yes, so there's really two components to coaching for us and our business model, one is group coaching and one individual coaching, and those are obviously very separate. If I'm working with an individual client and we're talking about the phases of coaching or how I work with a client, first is discovery. So the answers you get are only as good as the questions that you ask. And people don't care how Joe: Cool. Jordan: Much you know Joe: Well, Jordan: Until Joe: I Jordan: They Joe: Just Jordan: Know that you care. Joe: It's important Jordan: And Joe: Because Jordan: To Joe: I Jordan: Us, Joe: When Jordan: It's Joe: I Jordan: A Joe: Went Jordan: Relationship. Joe: And looked at the website, I was like, Jordan: And Joe: This Jordan: So Joe: Is this Jordan: I Joe: Is Jordan: Always Joe: Cool. Jordan: Tell Joe: You Jordan: People, Joe: Have a Jordan: Hey, Joe: Really Jordan: I'm Joe: Cool team Jordan: A coach, Joe: Around Jordan: Which means Joe: You. And Jordan: I'm Joe: I Jordan: Going Joe: Wanted Jordan: To hold Joe: To Jordan: You Joe: Find Jordan: Accountable. Joe: Out if there Jordan: I'm Joe: Was Jordan: Going Joe: A variety Jordan: To share ideas Joe: In Jordan: Where to talk about Joe: What Jordan: Concepts Joe: They Jordan: And strategy, Joe: Coach on Jordan: Just Joe: Which Jordan: Like Joe: You Jordan: Any Joe: Answered Jordan: Coach Joe: That question. They Jordan: Would. Joe: Do. You have people that Jordan: The Joe: Specialize Jordan: Difference Joe: In Jordan: In Joe: All Jordan: Our Joe: Sorts Jordan: Approach, Joe: Of things. Jordan: I Joe: So Jordan: Think, is Joe: It's Jordan: That Joe: Great Jordan: I'm also Joe: That Jordan: A Joe: If Jordan: Strategic Joe: Someone Jordan: Partner. Joe: Loves working with you for all Jordan: And so Joe: The reasons Jordan: If I sign Joe: That Jordan: Up Joe: They Jordan: To work Joe: Love Jordan: With a client, Joe: To work with you, they Jordan: What Joe: Can Jordan: That means Joe: Get Jordan: Is Joe: Basically whatever Jordan: I'm going Joe: They Jordan: To advocate, Joe: Need under one roof, Jordan: I'm going Joe: Which Jordan: To support, Joe: Is cool. It's Jordan: I'm Joe: Not Jordan: Going Joe: Like Jordan: To connect Joe: You do. It's not one Jordan: And Joe: Dimensional Jordan: I'm going to highlight Joe: In any Jordan: And spotlight Joe: Any way, Jordan: Who Joe: Shape Jordan: You Joe: Or form. Jordan: Are and what you do. That means that my network is your network. It means if you want to speak engaged, we're going to help you with that. If you need marketing help or we're going to help you with that. If I need to get you connected to another leader, I'm going to help you with that. If we need help, you track down a client or prospect, I'm going to help you with that. So it's our approach is a little bit different that way. It's it's heavily based around relationship. The relationship has to start with Joe: All right, Jordan: Discovery. Joe: Cool. So let's talk about Jordan: One of my Joe: The Jordan: Other Joe: Coaching Jordan: Beliefs, Joe, is Joe: Part Jordan: That if Joe: Of it, Jordan: I'm working Joe: And Jordan: With a client, Joe: If Jordan: It's always Joe: You can go through Jordan: 100 percent Joe: And tell Jordan: Of the time, Joe: Me the Jordan: Their time, not Joe: Different Jordan: Mine. Joe: Types Jordan: Which Joe: Of Jordan: Means Joe: Services Jordan: I've got to Joe: That Jordan: Deal Joe: You Jordan: With Joe: Have Jordan: The issues, Joe: For the coaching Jordan: The Joe: Piece Jordan: Opportunities Joe: Of. Jordan: And the challenges that are most present for them right away before I try to drive my agenda. So if I show up to the call and I say, hey, Joe, here's three things I want to talk about today. Here's the here's the new approach to closing a sale or here's the new approach to the discovery process or whatever. And I find out that your dog just died or that you just lost the key employee or that your house just burned down. But I'm using really dramatic examples. But anyway, the point, is there something else on your mind? I'm missing it. I'm not know I've failed to connect with you, and candidly, I failed to lead you. So the first question I asked to all of our coaching clients and a coaching meeting, and they would tell you, this is not to say, hey, Joe, how do we create space to discuss and talk about the things that are most pressing, interesting and relevant for you today? I want to start there and then we'll recap and we'll talk about some of the stuff that we've talked about the past. I'm always, you know, forcing accountability. So we're we're bringing things to the forefront. Did you do X, Y and Z to do that or Yapp with that? But we addressed the issues that are most present. And then I'm always trying to share ideas and concepts that I feel like are relevant to them based on the seasonal life there in industry they're in or what they've said that they needed help with. Conversations tend to be fairly organic because, again, it's it's a relationship. And, you know, people open up to us about all kinds of stuff, their marriage, their finances, their friendships, their their problems that go way beyond their professional life. Jordan: So I appreciate the question. I don't know if I if I answered it exactly. But to give you a window into our world and how we work with people, that that's sort of our our process and style. You know, right now we work with such a wide range of people, Joe, so I'm not as concerned about like industry or niche. Here's what I what I'm really concerned with this character traits. So they've got to be values oriented, right? They got to care. They're going to be a decent person. In other words, if they just want to go make all the money in the world, they don't want to leave their family. I'm probably not a good fit. I'm going to challenge them on their values and lead in their family and growing in their faith. And that's part of who I am. But that's not for everybody. But so we're probably not a good fit if that's not part of who they are. And then the second thing that I would tell you is they got to be open minded. They have to be willing to learn. They have to be somebody that enjoys new information and new ways of thinking. A new perspective, fresh perspective. Right. Doesn't mean that I'm always right or my perspective is the right perspective. It just means that they're willing to listen right there. They're willing to hear and then they're willing to be challenged. So they want somebody to ask them the tough questions and share the truth and mix even said it best. You said average players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached, great players want the truth. I want people that want the truth. I want people that really want to be challenged. Joe: Great. Jordan: They've Joe: So Jordan: Got Joe: Before Jordan: An open Joe: We Jordan: Mind Joe: Move to Jordan: And they have strong Joe: A Jordan: Values. Joe: Group coaching piece Jordan: And Joe: Of it, Jordan: If they've Joe: Because Jordan: Got those Joe: We just Jordan: Three Joe: Talked Jordan: Things, Joe: About the one on Jordan: They're Joe: One. Jordan: Usually a good fit for Joe: What's Jordan: Our coaching Joe: Your sweet Jordan: Practice. Joe: Spot? Who who are the people that you feel you work best with or can can help the best. Jordan: So the group coaches typically kind of a one hour session, we try to kind of meet people where they're at. So I work with organizations, as do our partners, to figure out, hey, what really do you need? What's the right time frame? What's the right size? I'd love to tell you that we've got, like, this specific program. It's cookie cutter. It's not. But that's by design. We really want to be a partner and meet people where they're at. So sometimes it's a small as is five people. I've got one group right now, 60, which I think is a little too big. What's important to us is that that's it's intimate or as intimate as it can be where people really feel like, you know, them. And and so we call on people. I try to get to know everybody by name and remember little facts about who they are and what's important to them. It's highly interactive. So I'm calling on people throughout the session. Usually I'm delivering 30 minutes of content or 30 minutes of discussion. We challenge challenge on the spot. I have other people challenge each other. I always say this in our group coaching program that where you sit determines what you see and you see something different than everybody else's and different is valuable. And so what that means is your voice matters because whether you're the most experienced person on the call are the least experienced person on the call, you see something that nobody else in the organization sees. And so we need your voice. We need your perspective, because you've got a different perspective than everybody else. So, Johnny, that sits at the front desk, that's the director of First Impressions, has some really valuable Joe: Awesome, Jordan: Perspective Joe: I Jordan: Because Joe: Love Jordan: Johnny Joe: That. OK, cool. Jordan: Sees Joe: So Jordan: Something Joe: The group Jordan: That Sarah, Joe: Coaching, Jordan: The CEO, Joe: What does that entail? Jordan: Doesn't see. And so we really just try to foster conversation, encourage people and empower people to share and speak up and then deliver content that's inclusive and relevant to the group. Yes, so much of our business is virtual, it just kind of always has been and most a lot of our clients aren't local. So they're you know, they're kind of spread out. We have people all over the US. I'm pretty used to Zoom calls and phone calls, and I speak a lot. Right. So keynote speaking is live often, but we still do virtual keynotes as well. So it's a good mixture, I would say, in so many ways covid changed our business. I was always willing to do things virtually, but I think a lot of companies weren't until they realized like, hey, we can do it this way. And so for me, as a person with a young family, it allowed me to stay at home and I didn't have to. I wasn't on a plane twice a week sleeping in a hotel. So so covid in some ways I'd be careful how I say this, because it was a really difficult time for a lot of people for our business. It actually affected my day to day rhythm or quality of life and I think a positive way and allowed me to be more present with my family. So it's a good mix of both. But I would say the pandemic certainly forced it to be more virtual. Joe: The coaching business, covid or not covid, were you doing live coaching up until that point and now a lot of Jordan: Yeah, Joe: It has shifted Jordan: I would say Joe: Onto Jordan: A good Joe: Like Zoom Jordan: Portion Joe: Calls and things Jordan: Of Joe: Like Jordan: Our Joe: That, Jordan: Clients Joe: Or Jordan: Are either Joe: How your Jordan: In Joe: Business Jordan: Sales or entrepreneurs, Joe: Today and what's Jordan: You know, Joe: The Jordan: So Joe: Mixture Jordan: There Joe: Of live Jordan: In fact, Joe: Versus Jordan: I would say it's Joe: Online? Jordan: Probably 80 percent of our business, either business owners or they're in sales and then there's maybe 20 percent that are in the world of executive leadership or sports. So that's kind of a mix of our business. When I say executive leadership, they're a leader in some sort of a corporate setting, but it's starting to change more every day. Like we work. I work right now with a group of physicians. We've got a gal that owns a very successful cosmetology clinic. So her whole thing is cosmetology Joe: Yep. Jordan: And she's been wildly successful and real estate agents and financial advisors and and college athletes and pro athletes. And so it's a it's a it's a wide range of people. Joe: Perfect out of the clients that you have, what is the percentage of general corporations, then entrepreneurs and then sports related? OK. Awesome. OK, we're closing in on the amount of time that I have you for, which is unfortunate because I love talking with you and I love your approach. I'm getting hit up left Jordan: Yeah, Joe: And right Jordan: Yeah, Joe: With Jordan: Yeah, so Joe: People that Jordan: Got Joe: Have coaching Jordan: Multiple Joe: Businesses Jordan: Answers to the question Joe: Are their personal Jordan: That you just ask, and Joe: Coaches Jordan: It's a great question, Joe: Or their life Jordan: By the Joe: Coaches Jordan: Way, Joe: Or whatever. Jordan: Tom Joe: And Jordan: Landry Joe: There's something Jordan: Probably Joe: About Jordan: Said Joe: Your approach Jordan: It best. Joe: That's Jordan: He said Joe: Just different that Jordan: Koshin Joe: Really I gravitated Jordan: Is Joe: Towards. 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Joe: Know anything Jordan: So I've always Joe: More Jordan: Had Joe: About Jordan: A coach, Joe: Me Jordan: I got three Joe: Or my Jordan: Now. Joe: Business Jordan: I've always Joe: Or Jordan: Had Joe: Be Jordan: One. Joe: Able to help? Jordan: I had Joe: And Jordan: 10. Joe: I think Jordan: Over Joe: There's Jordan: The last Joe: There's Jordan: Five Joe: Definitely Jordan: Years, Joe: People that decided Jordan: The Joe: One Jordan: Average Joe: Day they will Jordan: Olympic Joe: Come, said, I'm going Jordan: Athlete Joe: To be a life coach. So Jordan: Has Joe: They Jordan: Seven Joe: Sort of Jordan: Different Joe: Created Jordan: Coaches. Joe: A Jordan: And Joe: Bad name Jordan: I Joe: For Jordan: Think as Joe: The people Jordan: You grow, Joe: That really Jordan: There's Joe: Do it Jordan: What Joe: Well. Jordan: Happens Joe: Right. Jordan: Is there's this paradox Joe: So Jordan: Of education. Joe: You're Jordan: The Joe: One Jordan: More Joe: Of the Jordan: You Joe: Few Jordan: Learn, Joe: People that I've had on where I could Jordan: The Joe: Ask Jordan: More you Joe: This Jordan: Realize Joe: Question, Jordan: You Joe: Too, Jordan: Don't Joe: And Jordan: Know. Joe: Say, OK, I know I'm going Jordan: It's Joe: To really Jordan: Always Joe: Get Jordan: Sort Joe: A Jordan: Of evolving Joe: Good, honest answer. Jordan: In our our Joe: And Jordan: Self Joe: So I'm Jordan: Awareness. Joe: Putting you on the spot for Jordan: But Joe: The Jordan: We Joe: Coaching Jordan: Don't have blind Joe: Community Jordan: Spots Joe: Because I Jordan: And Joe: It's something Jordan: We don't know Joe: That Jordan: What we don't know. Joe: I've never Jordan: And Joe: Had Jordan: So Joe: A Jordan: You Joe: Coach Jordan: Need Joe: And I probably Jordan: Somebody Joe: Could have Jordan: Else Joe: Used Jordan: To Joe: A coach. 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But Jordan: Even those Joe: I want Jordan: Who were Joe: You Jordan: At the Joe: To Jordan: Top Joe: Answer that Jordan: Of their Joe: Question Jordan: Game, I'll Joe: For Jordan: Give Joe: Me, Jordan: You an example Joe: Especially Jordan: Where this shows Joe: For the Jordan: Up, Joe: Listeners Jordan: Joe Joe: And entrepreneurs Jordan: Shows Joe: Out Jordan: Up Joe: There Jordan: In communication Joe: Going, Jordan: All Joe: Man, Jordan: The time. Joe: I'm alone every day Jordan: So Joe: In this business. I Jordan: None Joe: Don't Jordan: Of Joe: Have Jordan: Us are Joe: Anybody Jordan: Perfect. We Joe: Else Jordan: All have Joe: Helping Jordan: A lot to Joe: Me. Jordan: Learn when it Joe: Do Jordan: Comes Joe: I Jordan: To Joe: Need Jordan: Our communication Joe: A coach Jordan: Style, Joe: Or Dulli? Jordan: What we say, how our body moves, our tonality, our pace. So we test out salespeople all the time. So I'll get hired by a bigwig financial adviser. First of all, have 20 years of experience, a team of 20 people there doing tens of millions of dollars revenue, that they're very successful. And so they hire us. They hire me to come in and do coaching work with them. And every one of them has sort of a different set of needs. But one of the things that we always talk about, at least on some level, is our communication style. Right, because they're in sales and they're communicating all day, every day for a living. So I challenge this financial advisor. Usually within the first few meetings, I'll say, hey, I want you to send me your approach language, which is really their what they say to engage a client and conversation. So it's a first time meeting and this is the first five minutes of sort of the introductory meeting. And I can I can feel their energy when I when I challenge them and I say, I want you to send me that communication. Their energy is like at a negative to. Right, they're thinking you're going to bill me X for coaching, I've been doing this for 20 years, like what I don't need is help on the basics of what I say. And, you know, I can just feel that just not really excited about that. Jordan: But I challenge him. I say I think this is a really important part of our work together. It helps me understand who you are and how you're showing up for people. So send that over when you get some time. So they send it over and it's not going to have all the answers. But I'm willing to listen to it repeatedly. Our team listens to it repeatedly. And then we give them an analysis. We give them feedback. The energy level, when we give them feedback, goes from a negative two to a 10. Every single time. Because they do not know what they do not know. And I just had a guy the other day, I said, OK, so when the first two minutes of your communication, you said the word thirty seven times. Did you know that? You know, hey, the way that you show up, did you know that you use me focused conversation? Over and over, you are literally saying I my, me repeatedly. And you were doing it for 20 years and nobody has ever told you that you're doing it, and that's a shame because you would connect with people and a deeper and more meaningful way because you would be able to drive better results. You would have more purposeful conversation if you could just make that one small tweak. Jordan: You know, we could end the conversation at the cozy relationship right there, and the time that we had spent together would have been massively impactful. Again, not because I have all the answers, but because I'm willing to listen, give real feedback and press in on blind spots that we all have. And the last thing I'll say is people need to be encouraged. You know, people will go farther than they think they can when someone else thinks they can, period. And I don't care for the most successful person, the least successful person, the most experienced, the least experienced. I'm working with a guy the other day, Fortune 500, executive leader, big time leader of people. They had a record breaking year at the firm. Unbelievable year. This guy is in charge of literally hundreds of direct reports. And I asked him in a conversation, I just said, hey, how many people told you over this past fiscal year? So you just wrapped up the year. How many people told you? Good job. And he says, well, like, what do you mean? I said, you know what I mean? Like e-mails, texts, phone calls. Like how many people reached out to you said, hey, good job, great you. And he said, Zira. Zero people had picked up the phone and sent a text instead of an email, so the point is this job that I've worked with, this guy named John. Jordan: So the point is this, John, that you need to be encouraged. You need somebody to point out what you're doing. Well. You need somebody to touch your heart and remind you of who God made you to be and all of the natural God given giftedness that's inside of you. And I just want to share with you it's an honor to be able to do that for you and with you. But let me let me help you see what I see. Let's look back at the last 12 months. Here's what you've achieved. In that moment, I think I think when you step into somebody's life in that way, you're a lid lifter and you do it authentically and you help them see more and you help them see before. Man, I think you're in a position of strength relationally. And I think that person at that moment realizes that that relationship means more than they ever realized. So there's a lot that we can say about coaching. But I think, Joe, when you touch somebody's heart, when you appreciate people for who they are, when you point out their God given gift A. and when you deliver the truth and love and you point out the blindspots, you can be a world class coach and it has nothing to do with what you know, it's all about. Jordan: You show up and serve people. Well, that's just my answer. I don't know if it's the right answer by anybody else's standard, but in my world, it's the way that I try to live each and every day with the people that we serve. I love it. Yeah, so here's what I'd say, we do a lot of work through social media, so Instagram is probably where I'm most active. I'm Jordan and Montgomery on Instagram, so I would love it. If you want to get in touch to send a direct message, I'll communicate back with you. I would love to connect Montgomery Companies dot com is on our website. I'm also active on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and if anybody reaches out, I will gladly respond. If you got a question, if you're wrestling with an issue, an opportunity I'd love to talk to it with and be of service to anybody listening. And Joe, I want to say thank you for having me on your show. It's an honor. It's always an honor to share your great with the questions that, yes, it's very clear that you showed up prepared and you also had great energy. And so I just want to say thank you for your time and attention. Thanks for who you are and for what you're putting out into the world. It's making a difference. I. Right back at you, brother.

  Tim O'Brien along with his wife Becki, have created a unique vitamin, supplement and nutrition store that is more about helping people than it is about margins and commissions. As Tim says" Souls before sales!"   It was a pleasure sitting down with Tim to learn more about The Healthy Place and what products and services they have to offer.   After Tim educated me, I'm definitely going to lean on him and his team in the future, to help me make better and more educated decisions when it comes to my health.   I hope you enjoy this episode and you walk away with at least one snippet that either helps you in your entrepreneurial journey or with you health in general.   For 30% off, please use our affiliate link as it helps us to generate a little income to produce this podcast...thx so much!   https://findyourhealthyplace.com/?rfsn=5901087.08b0f6   Thanks for listening!   Joe   Tim O'Brien Founder - The Healthy Place Website: https://findyourhealthyplace.com/ Website: https://livelyvitaminco.com/ Website: https://wildtheory.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/applewellness/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thehealthyplaceTHP YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYQVVKB58mGd_YgxAL0LMGA/videos LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/apple-wellness-the-healthy-place/about/ Email: tim@findyourhealthyplace.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Tim: My guest today is Tim O'Brien, the founder of The Healthy Place, an e-commerce store for healthy products. They also have for brick and mortar locations, one in Madison, Wisconsin, one in Fitchburg, Wisconsin, one in Middleton, Wisconsin, and one in Sun Prairie, Wisconsin. Tim's passion is health and wellness, and he has spent the last decade sharing his passion with the world on a personal side. He is married to Becky and together they have three children. In this conversation with Tim, I expressed how much health and wellness is important to myself and how convoluted the marketplace is and very difficult to trust who you buy from and which products you buy. I was excited to have Tim on the show so that I could learn more about the difference in what the healthy place offers over buying products at other places like GNC, Walgreens, the vitamin shop and obviously Amazon.com. So sit back and listen to the education that we get from Tim on how to buy better and healthier products in the health and wellness space. Joe: Hey, Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: Hey, hey, how you doing, buddy? Joe: I'm doing great, man, happy, what is it? Wednesday, I lost track, I just got Tim: Yeah, Joe: Back into Tim: It's Joe: Town. Tim: Hump hump day of the week, man, and Joe: Beautiful. Tim: I'm doing this to say thank you for giving me a chance to be on your show. Man, this is cool. Joe: Yeah, no, that's my pleasure, as as I mentioned before, we actually started this that I have, you know, I know that literally health is everything. Like you can have everything in the world that you ever, ever wanted. And without your health, it's just, you know, it's it's unfortunate because I know people go through things that had nothing to do with them not being healthy. They just got delivered a bad hand, Tim: Yahav. Joe: You know, so that's a different story. But those of us Tim: Jerome. Joe: That can make sure we stay healthy, there are things that we can do. But before we get into all of that, and as a lot of my listeners for the podcast and the viewers of a YouTube channel, now, I'd like to get the back story because a lot of the people who listen to the show are my hope is that these entrepreneurial spirits that are trying to figure out what they want to do are there in the midst of doing it. And they they need ideas from people that are being successful doing it. So I would like to go back as far as you're willing to go back to allow myself and the viewers to understand how you got into what you're doing today. What Tim: I love Joe: For? Tim: To share that. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, like what triggered the fact that you're now in this world of, you know, Tim: Supplements, Joe: The health world Tim: Natural Joe: And. Tim: Alternatives, Joe: Yeah, Tim: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, yeah. So I'd love to hear that and then we'll get in, Tim: I'd love to. It's Joe: Ok. Tim: A cool story, I kind of like telling it because it's just cool to see how things can work together to sort of bring you to the place that you're at. And it's sort of confirmation in some different ways. So I love to share it, man. I'd be happy to do so when my when I was like five or six years old, my mom fought through thyroid cancer. And I remember her like going through the chemo radiation and losing the hair, like seeing her at the hospital. I have four siblings, so just a lot of fear in the home, worried about mom. And then I remember this time where she came home and she was sort of like excited and sort of like filled with a little bit of hope because she had gone into this health food store in a little town called Muskego, Wisconsin, just this tiny little town that had a health food store. And she talked to this guy named John for like an hour and a half. And John shared with her all these natural alternatives that had some good science and some good reason to believe that it could help her in her process recovery, treatment of the thyroid cancer. And so she would like go in there like once a week, whether it was a refill for some supplements or whether it was some more education, because there was a lot of literature that this guy handed out as well, like books that he gave her. Tim: And I would go with her. And through this whole process, she she was benefited quite a bit from these natural alternatives that helped her and her recovery process. So I remember hearing about that as a little guy. And through that process, she got a job as a manager at this health food store. And she was there all the time, 40, 50 hours a week kind of thing. And us kids were home schooled. So we would go with mom often sitting in this back room of this health food store, doing our math problems, doing our schoolwork. And I watched over the years these testimonies produced of people coming in with chronic pain, depression, sleep issues, other folks that battled cancer, that my mom held their hand through the process, educating them. And so that was like my whole upbringing. And it really got into my DNA that there is natural alternatives out there that work and the general population just doesn't know about them, because the way our medical system set up pharmaceutical medications, you know, we have some of the best doctors in the world. And, you know, you go to them, you get a prescription, you don't Joe: Mm Tim: Necessarily Joe: Hmm. Tim: Get a natural alternative recommendation. So I got a bit passionate about that in my late teen years. So I got a job at a GNC franchise and worked for the owner who invited me to move out to Madison, Wisconsin, to manage some of his GNC stores after a little while. So I was like, man, OK, my boss thinks I'm good at this. I really enjoy helping people, encouraging people. I just happen to like like people in general. So it was it was sort of a fit. Like I got this passion for this natural alternative thing. I feel like I'm helping people. I'm impacting the world. I want to make a difference. And I was managing these GNC franchises in Madison, Wisconsin. Well, there was a corporate takeover, dude, in twenty seven where everybody lost their jobs, like corporate took over these six franchises that my boss owned. And it was like, OMG, like, what am I going to do now? And so I determined, you know, hey, I want to do something. And that's natural alternative space. I have always been sort of passionate about business in general. I had like three paper routes when I was 11 and I hired my sisters for a quarter a day. I was making bank Joe: Right. Tim: And I was so I tried a network marketing business for a little while that was suppliments and that was brutal. Multi-level marketing can be really hard. And I was like, OK, I don't want to go that route. Maybe I should open my own health food store. And at that time I had just met dating, married Becky, my wife. So we're prayerfully like thinking through this. Should we do this, put the house on the line, open up our own health food store and risk everything. And we decided to take the plunge. So our first brick and mortar store, 2010, was in a town called Fitchburg, Wisconsin, which is right outside of Madison, Wisconsin. And then twenty fifteen, it was store number two in the Madison area and then twenty nineteen with stores three and four. So that was going well. We then moved towards ecommerce where like, hey, if we're making an impact and a difference here locally, which is really exciting, we really enjoy it together. We work as a team like let's let's hit the nation. That sounds fun. And so we started to see a little bit of success there, especially ones covid hit of last year because our in-store traffic took a hit. So our pivot as a company, like a lot of smart companies, was, let's focus on e-commerce. And so that really helped us talk about a blessing in disguise, really helped Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Us figure out the e-commerce space a little bit. So really exciting. In December, January of this last year, we got our little warehouse. So now we have a warehouse in Madison and we're shipping packages out all over the United States. And that's the story. And the mission is about impacting, empowering and educating as many people as we can to just like, learn, grow and create a lifelong foundation of health and wellness. It's like a fanning a flame. You know, somebody already just has a little spark. You know, they're putting the cigarette out outside my store, throwing the McDonald's bag in the trash and like, I need something for my chronic pain all the way up to the health enthusiasts. And no matter what, to me, it's so encouraging to just fan the flame of someone's health and wellness. Because you said it earlier, life is a gift and people need to remember that. Joe: Yeah, and so have you always, based on the background of sitting in that store with your mother and seeing what the proper nutrition and supplements and things like that did for her? Did you always pretty much lead a healthy lifestyle? Tim: Funny is Joe: Don't Tim: No. Joe: Tell me you're a fast food junkie. Tim: No, I wasn't. Yeah, I was, and I always felt very bad if I was going through that fast food line, but my diet really didn't really take a huge impact until I married Becky. So for whatever reason, I would I knew a lot about supplements, really passionate about natural alternatives. But I was I was not the guy who is eating ultra clean, raw, organic, clean. I was like, OK, I'm going to eat a basic diet cleaner than most know what kind of excuses that. And then I'd lean on supplements for nutrition. And so when I met Vecchi, this is two thousand eight, she's like, wow, this doesn't even make sense. Like you can't go eat at pizza, frozen pizza, you know, and then go take your supplements. And so she really convicted me. And it's been a pretty cool team because that's always been her passion is very clean eating. And she didn't understand or know about the supplement natural alternative thing. And my passion has always been for my mom's story of natural alternatives and supplements can change a life. And so then getting married and working together as a team to educate Madison and our social media platforms and on YouTube, it's like there has to be a marriage between nutritional deficiencies, making sure we don't have them eating well, eating clean exercise. So we should work together. And I've improved since meeting, Becky. Joe: Wow, so are you actually telling me that she was already before you guys even met, she was interested in this sort of thing or she was she was Tim: Yeah. Joe: A healthy, clean eating person. Tim: Yes, she was Joe: Wow. Tim: A health enthusiast, yeah, I mean, just health, and that's part of what drew me to her is like, man, this girl's got discipline, like extreme self-control. For me, that's been an area of struggle, just like in general, like discipline waking up early. I'm the guy that would, before I met Becky, like stay up till one and then sleep till nine till I had to quit, get to work. And, you know, he's like, man, we got some work to do. But, yeah, she sure inspired me and a few of those areas. Joe: Ok, so without prying too deeply then, because now you're really piqued, my interest is the fact that you guys are lying so well. How did you meet? Tim: Yeah, so we there was like a young adults meeting through it, through church called Metro Believers Church in Madison, Wisconsin, you know, I'm a Christian, she's a Christian, and in my early twenties, it was like, hey, I really enjoyed finding people like minded. And I think in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'm searching for a life, you know? So I would go to a couple of these different churches, young adult ministry meetings, whatever, 20 something groups. And we just started hanging out. So it was like a group of like six or seven of us. And I was about six months in. I pulled her aside one day after church and said, I still laugh at what I said. I said, Hey, Becky, I've taken a shining to you and I'd like to continue on to marriage. And she's like, oh my gosh. Like, OK, I'm kind of like you, too. It was weird way to ask, but OK. Joe: It's also that's Tim: Yeah, Joe: Old school, Tim: I don't do it right. Oh, yeah. Joe: But also Tim: Oh. Joe: All right, cool, well, that's that's great. So how did you change or why did you change the name from Apple Wellness to the healthy place? Tim: Yeah, really good question, you know, Apple Wellness was a good name, you know, in the sense of like Apple a day keeps the doctor away and we just had too many people thinking we are the Mac Apple store. So I literally get calls, at least weekly, Joe: Wow, Tim: And Joe: That's so subtle. Tim: At least I know, and then I'd see my employee across the way and he'd be talking to somebody and he'd be like, well, try turning the phone off and then turn it back on, you know? Joe: Oh, my Tim: So Joe: God. Tim: Especially after he got the e commerce thing going, I started, Becky, as the graphic designer and kind of branding expert within our company for a long time. She's like the Apple word's taken. That's just gone. And I should have consulted with her a little bit more before we chose the name. Joe: Uh huh. Tim: And so she's always kind of wanted it changed. But then I found out that Apple, the company, has an Apple wellness program Joe: Oh, Tim: For employees Joe: Of. Tim: Like it's trademarked. I mean, so I figured it was just a matter of time before I end up getting some sort of litigation letter from Joe: Yeah, Tim: Apple. Joe: Yeah, well, OK, that's interesting. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So you stole one of my questions, but it was perfect because it was actually in line with what you were talking about. But I want to go back to it because Tim: Sure. Joe: It's important, again, for like the entrepreneurs that are listening to this and what we just went through with covid, you talked about shifting. They're not shifting, but literally adding to what you've already established. Right. So you were Tim: You. Joe: You were a retail store, people walking in foot traffic. That's what you counted on to make a living. Right. So when covid hit, obviously, everyone stayed home. So there goes all the foot traffic. So did you already have the e commerce portion of this set up before this happened when you said it was a blessing in disguise? Were you already ready to go the moment like that? Tim: Really Joe: The Tim: Good. Joe: You know, Tim: Yes, Joe: The doors. Tim: Yes and no, I Joe: Ok. Tim: Mean, it's like we had the website, we had the ability to set up ship products out. We had maybe three hundred out of the four thousand products that we have in our stores on the site. So we were ready in certain ways and then not ready for a lot of things. And we had no idea on the digital side of marketing, Google ads, Facebook ads, SEO optimization, email marketing. We hadn't done text messaging. We hadn't done very much of that, very basic and each one of those areas. So it was all of a sudden like pedal to the metal once March hit, where it was like, OK, we have some of these basic fundamentals. And I always tell a business owner like you, if you don't already, you have to have a website like I mean, covid showed us all that pretty quick, like Joe: Yeah. Tim: Have to have a website and you can get free ones are very inexpensive. Wick's dotcom. I'll tell business owners, like even if you're not a photographer, don't don't try to be don't don't get some real basic a white posterboard. Put the product right over it. Just take a picture by a window. Don't don't try to get real clever with it because Vecchi tells me that it can end up looking really bad if Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: You're trying to do so. Basic things like get a website, get a social media, you know, ask your grandkid if you don't know how to set one up sort of thing. So we had all the basics, but then for us it was like, OK. Let's get live chat on our website, because we are one of our difference makers, is consultations Joe: Huh? Tim: With we change lives because we ask questions and we figure out the best products and forms and brands for their specific issues, problems. So let's get a live chat on our website so we can have those conversations. Let's get free shipping. Let's make it really easy. Even if we lose money on maybe one out of five orders, let's just like make it easy, reduce friction in any way that we can. Let's get on Google ads and Facebook ads. So we hired a digital agency for that and it's pretty cool. A year later, we had 30 percent overnight of our foot traffic was just gone once we were able to stay open, thankfully. But that 30 percent in one year's time, we were able to build that on our e-commerce platforms. We were able to replace what was lost. So I'm still head spinning, so thankful for my team able to bring that together because it's quite the operation and it takes a lot of work. Joe: Yeah, did you did you keep the stores open themselves or did you? Tim: We did Joe: You did OK. Tim: Not. Joe: Ok, Tim: We Joe: And Tim: Were Joe: Was it. Tim: Scrambling in the beginning of if we could be classified as essential or not, and my belief is that the immune system is something that can really be strengthened. I'm more passionate about terrain versus the germs so we can strengthen our terrain, strengthen our immune systems, both defense and offense. I mean, there's incredible science behind simple nutrients like sand, mucus from elderberry. The University of Sydney showing the prevention which with elderberry prevention of viruses entering the cell. I mean, it's some pretty cool science. So at the beginning of the covid thing, it was like, OK, I'm not going to tell anybody I can cure or prevent Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Whatever, but I'm sure as heck going to yell it from the rooftop that you can strengthen your immune system and a strong immune system. Strong health is the best defense against any disease, virus, sickness anywhere. So I got pretty passionate about that a year ago. Joe: Cool. Yeah, that's great. So I'm normally pretty good at not bouncing around, but in this case, I want to go back to when you decided to do this. You know, obviously when when someone gets released from a corporate environment and they're like, oh, my gosh, I don't have control over my own destiny because these people Tim: The. Joe: Just literally rip the rug out from underneath me, which is another thing that a lot of entrepreneurs know because this is how they got to where they are there that happen to them. Like I'm not letting someone else dictate how my life is going to turn out. Right. So Tim: Yeah. Joe: But what's really crazy is I don't know if it if in Wisconsin or the places where you have these stores, obviously we know that you already brought it up at GNC is a big brand around the country. There's also where we are. There's the vitamin store. Right. Are the stuff that one of those Tim: Yeah, Joe: Is a vitamin Tim: Yeah, Joe: Shopper. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So there's a lot of these places. So it's almost like you saying you and Becky going, oh, yeah, we're going to create the next pizza delivery like pizza Tim: Now, Joe: Delivery Tim: There's already Joe: Franchise. Tim: 10 right around Joe: Yeah, Tim: The corner, Joe: Right. Tim: So let's see number 11, yeah. Joe: Right. It's we're going to be the next Pizza Hut or Papa John's or whatever. It's just like that that industry Tim: Yes, Joe: That's it takes a lot Tim: It's Joe: Of guts. Tim: So competitive. Joe: Yeah. So when you thought about it, as all entrepreneurs, do, we always come up with these ideas and then we sometimes will kill our own ideas without our spouse or partner or someone will say they'll be the sensible one and say Tim: Right, Joe: That's Tim: Right, Joe: Never Tim: Yeah. Joe: Right. But then you have all these outside influences of of friends and things. And, you know, at any moment, if you would have said, hey, we're thinking of opening up a vitamin supplement, healthy sort of Tim: John. Joe: That people would look at you. But what about all of these major brands? So tell me about how you got over the hump to make to pull the trigger. Tim: Yeah, do that's such a good question and, you know, to identify and I had some friends who opened a coffee shop, you know, and a year later, you know, the coffee shops not doing so well is unfortunate with covid timing and everything. And it's like the supplement thing where you, like, hear this and you're like, oh, I don't know, you know, I wish him well, but I don't know if that's going to work because it's just like there's a hundred of them, you know. Joe: Right. Tim: So I think for me what happened was I worked for GNC for, I don't know, five years. And you start to see good stuff. You start to see bad stuff, you start to see their model. They were purchased by China a while back. So, OK, it's all sourced from China. Forms of nutrients are in their synthetic forms or not so absorbable forms. And you start to learn like, OK, a better product would help this person more than this form of curcumin that's not absorbing into their system from China or wherever, you know, so you start to see where you could make a difference and you sort of start to see your difference makers. So in the supplement world, there's two veins of supplement stores. There's the type of stores that are all about muscle gain and weight loss, you know, weight loss, thermogenic high caffeine, ephedra, and then trim and tracks Hydroxycut. And a lot of that isn't super healthy for Joe: Hmm. Tim: People to be taking steroids or pro hormones, you know, not super healthy. So that's like one vein of supplement stores. And then there's another vein of supplement stores that just they sourced from China. They use synthetic nutrients. It's a little bit more about margin and profit than it is about quality and making a difference. And so that is something I realized pretty early on. And there's not too many supplement health food stores that have a lot of knowledge where you walk in. And there's not just like a high schooler selling the huge jug of protein because it gets a two dollar commission on it, you know. Joe: Yes, I do know. Tim: Yeah, yeah. And there's just not a lot of those out there. So then all of a sudden starting to dream about, you know, originating from my mom's story where somebody really helped her out, where I can really make a difference, because if I open my own stores or store at the time, I can bring in some of the best brands in the world. And pretty quick, in any industry, you find out, good, better, best. And I want to be in that best category. And all of a sudden you're working with some of the best brands in the world and you have the knowledge to be a to guide somebody with Crohn's disease. Let's just Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Talk over asthma on natural alternatives that really work. And if you impact them, if you help them, if you change their life a little bit for the better, now they're going to keep coming back forever. And they tell everybody they know because there's such a vacuum, such a desperate need in this day and age for knowledgeable resources in the natural alternative space. We have a ton of medical, we have a ton of pharmaceutical drugs. We just don't have information coming to the general public on natural alternatives that work. And I get to be that resource in Madison, Wisconsin. So I think that's why we have done well in our brick and mortar stores. And I think that's probably why our attention is higher for our e-commerce is because of that customer service, that knowledgeable resource, that going the extra mile to impact their lives. And I'll give you an example. A lady might hit our live chat from California and say, hey, I'm looking for a V12. Can you give me a recommendation? And then we might ask the question like, absolutely. Here's a couple of options. Do you mind if I ask while you're while you're taking V12? Oh, my doctor said because I have really low energy, I have nerve pain and my mental clarity and focus, I get like foggy brain all the time. So then all of a sudden we say, awesome, OK, I'm actually going to encourage the method in form of V12 because it absorbs much better than this sign form that I first sent you, because I really want you to feel the difference. And since you're feeling fatigued, a little brain fog, I'd love for you to consider this adrenal boost product that has adapted genic herbs in there, like Atul Gawande wrote Rodeo Mocca because ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. So then you recommend that product. They get it. And this lady two months later goes, Oh my gosh, my energy is a little better, my focus is better, my stress is reduced, which I didn't even bring up. But that adrenal product helps with stress, too, I guess. Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Then all of a sudden they're leaving a review like, wow, that wellness consultant, Ryan, he's one of our our wellness consultants. He really helped me out. And so it's a very different sort of dynamic than a typical GNC store, health food store, vitamin shop type experience. They're Joe: Huh? Tim: All great stores. I mean, I love Natural. Anywhere you can get them. So that was like our difference maker and that's why I thought I could make a go out of it. Joe: Ok, cool. I have so much to ask you now, because you keep opening up like Kansas. So. So before again, I, I want this stuff to be helpful for the entrepreneur. And then then we're going to help the consumers that listen to this. So how when you decided on doing this and said, OK, and let's pull the trigger, how did you figure out the place where you're going to open up store number one, that you do all that extensive, Tim: Oh, Joe: You know, Tim: Good question, yes. Joe: Traffic, you know, what's going to pop up around us? What Tim: You know, Joe: Is, you Tim: Find Joe: Know? Tim: Find a good broker, a real estate broker that can find you spaces. So I had a guy named Kent in Madison, Wisconsin, and he you don't have to pay these guys. You know, it's the landlord that pays them. Joe: Right. Tim: And so as a young entrepreneur about to, like, risk everything you had, that was really important for me to know. Like, I I still am shocked by that. Like, you can just call one of these guys, try to find a reputable one, find somebody that trusts that can make a good referral. And they do all this scouting for you. They send you all the reports and you don't pay a penny. You know, I am a bottom line at the end or something, but you don't pay a penny for this. They get paid from the landlord. So he was bringing me idea after idea after idea. And he had been in the industry for a long time. So he knew the city really, really well. And he was able to guide me through, hey, this has a really strong anchor. The anchor in Fitchburg was Joe: Yeah, Tim: Target. Joe: Yeah. Tim: It was a super, super target. So I was like, oh, learning about anchors are important, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Really important. So I tell you, if you're listening, like, look for some strong anchors, because that's really going to help you for traffic. Joe: And just for the listeners and the people that don't like it, like when they talk about like a small strip mall or a plaza or something like that or even in a in a mall small, an anchor is an anchor store. That is when they go in, there's a really good chance they're not going away like they are a big thing like Target or Wal-Mart Tim: Exactly. Joe: Or Nordstrom or whatever. So I just wanted to clear that up because I didn't know at one point. But I know when you're looking at retail space like that, you want to be surrounded by an anchor store that has been around forever and is not going away. Tim: Yes, and just to further drive that point home, we have for brick and mortar stores and the one that's doing like the worst is the one that doesn't have a strong anchor by it. So just get one with a strong anchor and then look at price points and definitely negotiate. So we had that broker that was able to help us out. He was able to negotiate tenant improvement. Our big deal when you're opening a store, because you you could use money towards the build out and you can ask landlords for that. So if, again, if you have a good broker and you tell them your story, what you're trying to build out, a lot of times you can get a number of things paid for by the landlord because they're about to ask you to sign a five year lease. Joe: Mm hmm. OK. So at this point, the four locations that you have, you are in a lease situation Tim: Yes, all for you Joe: At Tim: And I've Joe: Any Tim: Looked into purchasing. Joe: Ok, so there is yeah, that's my question. It's like when do you pull the trigger on saying, OK, I want to actually start to own some of these buildings are these spaces. And that's a huge job. That's that's really put your Tim: Yeah, Joe: Neck out. Right. Tim: So in all four, I looked at them and each one has a different story, the first one I looked into though, at the Fitchburg location, the buildings were not for sale. So I was like, all this is so cool. So I looked into it and it was seven million dollars for these two buildings because it's in a strong anchor, high traffic area. So it is difficult to buy the spot by the strong anchor Joe: Maha. Tim: Because it really it would have been risking I couldn't I couldn't do it. But then the idea next idea is like, well, maybe I should move locations now that my name is established, if I can buy a strip mall down the way or something like that. So that Joe: Te. Tim: Idea is in the back of my head. But then you move away from the strong anchors. That's Joe: Right. Tim: Been called me back. Joe: Right, cool. See, that was perfect because that was like all of the things that you have to consider and Tim: Right. Joe: It's yeah, that's a tough decision, man. That's a lot of money. Tim: It is, Joe: Yeah. Tim: Dude, I Joe: Yeah. Tim: Know and I have a buddy who owns a dentistry office and he Joe: We. Tim: Was able to purchase his location and it's awesome. He's about to pay it off after ten years. And I'm super excited. So Joe: Yeah. Tim: It is depends on the situation. Joe: Yeah, OK, so now let's get into what I consider in the world that you're in and I'm a huge fan of natural like I is, it's a there's a difference between naturopathic or is. Right. Is that pronounced correctly? Is that they say it Tim: Yeah, Joe: Now Tim: Naturopathic Joe: Or Tim: Medicine Joe: Or homoeopathic. Tim: Homoeopathy yupp homoeopathy Joe: Right. OK. Tim: And integrative medicine is kind of like medical and naturopathy together. Joe: Yep, yep, so Joel and my life partner went through a battle of breast cancer where she had some lymph nodes and luckily, you know, Tim: Giese. Joe: Through through chemo and radiation, she came out on the other side and everything's great. But Tim: Good. Joe: The big thing that she also had was she had a naturopathic doctor Tim: Hmm. Joe: That went that came from the cancer world. So the advantages is that he understood the treatment that was happening with the normal medicine and he knew what to give her to not take away from what she was doing with the chemo and radiation, but at the same time helped to keep her system built up and not offset any of that. So there was a perfect marriage between the two. And Tim: That's. Joe: I swear to this day, I feel like that was the reason that she was Tim: Wow. Joe: Fairly, fairly normal through the process, like we were doing 90 X and she was in the middle Tim: That's Joe: Of chemo Tim: All Joe: And radiation. Tim: Right. Joe: Yeah, it was ridiculous. So Tim: Dude, that's Joe: So Tim: Awesome. Joe: I'm a big fan of the naturopathic side of things and natural remedies and all of that. So Tim: Not the. Joe: So that's why this was a cool episode for me, because it's hard to talk with somebody that is in this niche that you're in without it being the big stores. And so my first question, because I got so many of them Tim: I Joe: First question and the first Tim: Love Joe: Question Tim: It. Joe: Is how do you become with all of the misinformation that's out Tim: The. Joe: In the world? Right. And this is what confuses all of us as consumers. You go to Amazon and you say, I need a B vitamin of Tim: Right Joe: Some B supplement. Tim: Now. Joe: And the habit is you you click on the five star rating, things that you want. You think that's going to be the best because people are taking their time to read it, which Tim: Yeah. Joe: I think there's enough Tim: What Joe: Conversation Tim: Did he. Joe: In the world that says that's not necessarily true. Tim: Right. Joe: And then you literally are just like throwing darts at a dartboard with Tim: I Joe: A blindfold Tim: Know that, Joe: On. So. Tim: I know. Joe: So how do you get through all the misinformation that you feel so confident enough that when you when you suggest something to a client that you haven't been taken advantage of by the misinformation, like Tim: Yeah, Joe: How do you get through Tim: Because. Joe: All of that stuff? Tim: A great question and even the reviews, if a company markets really well and they're incredible at marketing, they can get a billion, five star reviews and they can be like synthetic sourced from China, not NSF certification. So over the years, you start to be able to read between the lines and you start to be able to say, hey, this is B.S. over here. This is marketing. Only not met with quality. And like any industry, you start to learn the good, better and best. So there's a few things. So first and foremost, I think everybody needs somebody on their team. Like your wife has that naturopathic doctor now as a resource that she can probably shoot an email to or make an appointment with and ask these questions. I think everybody needs somebody on their team because most people have a medical doctor and beyond that and they might have a pharmacist. Right. And they're good to have on your team, but we need somebody with. Expertise, knowledge, history in the supplement space, because even a naturopathic doctor, they know way more than I do about the human body, about maybe. Yeah, just just how to treat maybe disease. Tim: Right. When you're in the supplement space, there is you get to deal with hundreds and hundreds of brands. And over the decades, which I think 18 years now, you start to find out what brands are good and trustworthy and which ones aren't because the FDA doesn't regulate all the supplements. So you can say whatever you want on the label about me, your romantic drink here, but you can say whatever you want and. FDA isn't going to necessarily nail you if you're lying, if your label is making false label claims and this happens, there was a clinic in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where not real clinical, but where they took products from a number of stores, GNC, Walgreens, Wal-Mart and Target. They took supplements from those four stores and then they had them tested at Chavannes and it was Chavannes Labs. And all four of them had discrepancies with what the label said and what was actually in the capsule. And one product was an Asia product, which is good for the immune system. And it had zero percent echinacea in there and a little bit of garlic like Joe: Oh, Tim: What Joe: My Tim: The H Joe: Gosh. Tim: Now? Yeah. So that exactly what you said. It's shooting in the dark. Is it marketing that's producing these reviews? Is it quality? Is it going to help me? Is it a waste of my money? Am I being sold. Right. So there's all those questions and the privilege that I'm so thankful for is just being submersed in the supplement world long enough. You learn a couple of things. So sourcing is vital. Where is it coming from? There is vitamin C that you can get our China, that there's some concerns there with chemicals, heavy metals, arsenic, or you can get vitamin C from Scallan, which happens to have a really rich ascorbic acid form of vitamin C clean, great place to source it from. So where a product is sourced from is really important. Number two is does the brand have NSF certification? So NZDF C, GMP grade facilities that they work with, which they're paying money to NSF to a third party test and ensure that they're having all of these practices that are healthy for supplements, they're sourcing their cleanliness. Has it been tested? Is it clean? Those questions? And NSF doesn't care about the company. They care about the reputation. So there sure as heck going to just that's a good certification is trusted in the supplement world to ensure that what's on the label is actually in the product. Tim: So sourcing No. One, NSF, GMP certification, number two and number three, which all of these take some sort of expertise or having somebody on your your team. You know, that's why I say to have somebody on your team first. But number three is the forms of nutrients. So E 12, which I gave the example earlier, Psion Kabalan and B 12 is synthetic. So your body has to convert it and you lose a lot of the content in that conversion versus a methyl form B 12, which is the natural form that your body absorbs really, really well. So four items, number one and two, saucing and NSF, you can have a very clean form of sign Kabalan and B 12 source, very clean. You could have NSF facility ensuring that you have that 50 micrograms of cyanide Kabalan B 12 in the B complex. But then it would take some expertise to know, like, OK, that's fine, that's good. But we would prefer a methyl form would be 12 because it absorbs so much better Joe: Mr.. Tim: And every single nutrient. This blows my mind because every single nutrient has good, better, best. You know, whether you're talking about vitamin C, ascorbic acid, sodium ascorbic calcium ascorbic B 12, which I'm talking about the six paroxetine hydrochloride versus toxified phosphate turmeric. You can get the the turmeric that colors your Indian curry orange and you can take that capsule and it's good for you. It just doesn't do very much for inflammation unless you extract the curcumin out and then even that doesn't have a good absorption rate. So blending it with the turmeric, essential oils and the sunflower lecithin launch the absorption where it's literally absorbing two hundred to five hundred times better than the turmeric Indian spice that you started with. And that's the form of ninety five. That's the form that Baylor University of Texas is using to literally treat cancer and chronic pain with incredible results. I mean, the cancer story is very cool. Inflammation is the root of the root system of cancer. Joe: Mm, huh. Tim: So that's an example where it's like oh man form so saucing, NZDF, GMP, great facility forms of nutrients. Those are the big three that you want to look at to know quality. Right. So that's what I always tell somebody, find somebody that you can trust. So for you guys, it might be your your doctor that your wife worked with for in Madison, Wisconsin. A lot of people trust the healthy place to help guide them, know we don't do commission so that we can just recommend what's best so Joe: Right. Tim: People can use that live chat feature on our website to just ask those questions. But find a health food store maybe that is trustworthy in your home town, that you do meet a job like my mom met John Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: Or find a store like mine that you can connect with and you can go to when health strikes, health problems strike because everybody has some conditions, some problem, something, even if it's something as simple as fatigue, you know. Ninety two percent of fatigue is related to your adrenal glands. You can strengthen your adrenal glands and you can have more vibrant energy every day. And people just don't know that. So they keep reaching for the coffee or the soda or the caffeine pills, what have you. So get somebody on your team that you can trust. Joe: So go. So you said at one point in this conversation that do you have over 4000 Tim: Products, yeah. Joe: Excuse now, right? OK, so let's just take that as an example. It's a full time job for someone like you to be the Tim: Yes. Joe: Gatekeeper Tim: Yeah. Joe: Of your of the healthy place. You have to be the gatekeeper to say, yes, this comes into our door and gets put on ourselves or in our e-commerce store or Tim: The. Joe: No, this doesn't meet the criteria. So to me, it feels like it's continuing education and literally a full time job for whoever that person. Let's just say it's you at the moment that Tim: Yeah. Joe: Is the person that says yay or nay on these products. So it's just mind boggling what is out there and what you have to do to sort of educate yourself to to say, yes, this makes the cut, not only doesn't make the cut, but it's in a product. It's not a product and not a C product, you Tim: Yeah, Joe: Know what I mean? Tim: You're Joe: So. Tim: Absolutely right. And it's like reading a book, though, you don't want to minimize what I do, it's like it's not hard for you to read English, you know, after you've learned it. But if you're learning a new language, it looks like totally confusing. Overwhelming can take me forever to learn this language. And it might take some years to learn it. Once you have that language mastered, it's just like reading a book, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: You just check the boxes, right. OK, where is the source from NSF? GMP, what's the forms of these nutrients? Because you start to learn and then you have experts that you follow. A lot of people smarter than me that I follow. Dr. X, Dr. While, Dr. Whitaker, Dr. Northrup. And you start Terry Lambrew and you start to follow these gurus in the southern industry that have been there for 40 years, that know so much more than you. And you're reading their literature, listening to their podcasts. They're the symposiums around the planet that are going on for this breakthrough, that breakthrough. You get the subscriptions right to the. So I just tell everyone, get plugged in at least where you're getting encouraged on a regular basis to own your health, build your terrane strength in your health and all the ways that you can inspire yourself on a regular basis and then get somebody on your team that you can trust to help guide you in the space, because it is a new language, right? Joe: It's nuts, it's just it's so frustrating. Did a three month vegan plan Tim: Nice. Joe: Because Tim: Yeah. Joe: I'm not vegan, but I loved it like it was good for me. But I Tim: Yeah. Joe: Actually I actually, in the process, lost a lot of muscle mass because I was also going always going to the gym. But all of a sudden I started to shrink both, Tim: Right, Joe: You Tim: Like, Joe: Know. Tim: No. Joe: So, yes, I'm like, I'm doing all this hard work. And it's just I needed to get on a B 12 vitamin of something. And it's funny because I don't even know what I'm taking, but it's something that I got from Amazon and Tim: Your Joe: I Tim: I can do it. I've been assigned to general Joe: I'm sure. Tim: Check that Joe: So Tim: After Joe: I'm going Tim: The program. Joe: To look when yeah. When we're done, I'm going to look and then I'm going to and then I'm going to say I need a direct line to Tim in Tim: There Joe: The Tim: We Joe: Chat Tim: Go. Joe: Room. Tim: Yeah. Joe: So have you ever thought of franchises? Tim: I have, I Joe: And Tim: Have. Joe: And I'm Tim: You Joe: Just interested you don't have to you don't have to Tim: Know, Joe: Say to. Tim: I'm so I am very interested and I have been kicking that ball around in my head for a long time because we are we specialize in education, right. So you got to find ways to duplicate yourself in a franchise. And so we created a three month curriculum that our wellness consultants have to go through. They have to pass quizzes and tests and they have to get certifications from this company, this company and MKB certification, all the enzyme certifications to understand the industry, know what questions to ask customers and how to make recommendations. So that's one of the hardest things that we've done that would make it more easy to duplicate the knowledge side of our company and our brand. And as I've talked to people who have created franchises, the the legal side to it is one hurdle and then enforcing them to actually maintain your model as representing the healthy place. What we have created is the two big unknowns for me as far as difficulty. So then the choice came, should we just keep adding brick and mortars in our own territory? Right, right. In the Madison area and then put all of our energy and focus into our brands that we've created and our website because there's infinite you can do in the business world and you kind Joe: Mm Tim: Of Joe: Hmm. Tim: Have to choose. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So we decided to park the franchise idea for now and really go after lively vitamin CO. This is one of the brands that have been borne out of our brick and mortar stores. So now we're selling that to other health food stores around the country. And the number two is build find your healthy place dotcom, because just like Amazon is a freakin mammoth, there's so much opportunity to impact and power and educate everything that I'm passionate about on that website. So currently with four kids, we are chilling on the franchise idea. But I think it's brilliant because there's not there's not the option out there, which is why it keeps coming back to me Joe: Yeah, Tim: Like Joe: Yeah. Tim: There's not that many health food stores out there that really care. Soulsby for sales. You know, as one of my Joe: Mm Tim: Saying Joe: Hmm. Tim: That, Joe: I Tim: I really Joe: Love that, by the way, I love that. Tim: Thank you. Thank you. There is a time I was praying and it was like not I it going to make my friggin mortgage. When I first opened the store, I was praying to God for sales and I was like, God to declare bankruptcy here is brutal. And it was like an arrow is like, do you care about their soul as much as you care about the sales? Joe: Yeah. Tim: And it was kind of striking. So, yeah, there's not that many stores out there that really care about the human that have knowledge to help guide them and a model that works to help people, you know. So it's still an idea that keeps coming back to me. So Joe: Right. Tim: We'll see. Joe: Yeah, well, good luck if it happens, I'm sure it'll be great. Tim: Thank you. You see one popping up next door, you'll know where to get your V12. Joe: There you go. So you hit upon this a moment ago with the whole franchising thing of how to actually create this template and create a strict thing where where the people that are talking to your customers are very educated and they're giving the right information and asking the right questions. So how have you done that with the people that are at your current stores and how have you done that with the people that are on the other end of the chat? When somebody files in to ask these questions, Tim: Yeah, so. Joe: How do you get something like when is somebody OK? You're ready to take a call, you're ready to be on the chat, you're ready to to advise a customer in the store, like, what's that process? Tim: Yeah, Joe: And you don't Tim: So. Joe: Have to go too deep. I just Tim: No, Joe: I Tim: No, Joe: But Tim: That. Joe: I'm sure somebody is going to say, like, hey, Tim, super educated on this. So every time I talk, like I just said, you know what I call him on the chat, I want him, you Tim: Right. Joe: Know. So Tim: Right. Joe: How to how do you duplicate Tim so that everyone that's coming in on the chat or walking in the store says this is just a clone of Tim like he may. He's already run them through the ringer, you know? Tim: Yeah, that's so the three month curriculum that we created is our pride and joy. I'm so thankful for that. It was brutal to create. So I created one hundred videos, having a five minute conversation where I'm explaining different parts of the world and explaining brands and what to look for and how to explain it. And then we'll go through they'll have to pass quizzes and tests based on each module. So there's nine different modules to this curriculum. They have to go through trainings with specific companies. They have to do a number of roleplaying activities with our managers where they pretend to be the customer Joe: Mm Tim: And Joe: Hmm. Tim: Coming in, hey, I'm looking for some CBDs. What do you got? And so they get tested there and they have to get these certifications from each of these brands, so they have to pass it. So there's one guy who got to the end and he is like, OK, dude, we got to rewind because you're not retaining this stuff. So either you did the last minute cramming for this quiz the night before. And like I didn't I did that in high school. Joe: Ok. Tim: And then you don't retain it, right. Joe: Yeah. Tim: So do you really care about this or not? So he had to start over. He had to go through it again. So it's a team. We have a leadership team of five. And so we have these nine modules, the quizzes, the tests. They have to pass them. They have to do the role playing. And then the leadership team of five will say, OK, this person's ready or they're really not ready. And there's still a couple of parts of our team where we're like, OK, where they can be a wellness consultant in the store, but we don't think they're ready to be on live chat. So then we'll wait maybe six months until they have a little bit more experience, because where our team learns the most is from the customers coming in asking the questions and they don't know the answers of how to treat colitis Joe: Mm Tim: With Joe: Hmm. Tim: Whatever. So then they have to go find out to get back to that customer and then they learn something. So right now, I'm proud to say our live chat feature on our website, if you go to find your other place, dotcom lower, right. You get that little live chat bubble, the seven different consultants that you might run into over there are, I wouldn't say clones of Tim because I think they're smarter than me, but they are really well equipped and able to match, kind of hit the mark of where they need to be. And they all know and are passionate enough about helping people to not. One of the first things that I'll tell them is, dude, never bullshit. Joe: Yeah, yeah. Tim: That's a real thing. And I came from a I won't say anything negative where it's just more about getting the sale, about getting that commission. And and that's part of why we don't do commissions. So it's a fun process for intense. Joe: Well, that's great, man. Yeah, so I want to respect your time. We're down to the wire. I want to make sure I didn't miss anything that you want to talk about. So you have four stores in Wisconsin. Tim: Madison, Joe: Correct. Tim: Wisconsin, the. Joe: Ok, and you have the website Tim: Find your healthy place, Dotcom. Joe: Buying your healthy place, Dotcom. Anything else that I missed that is important that we talk about? Tim: You know, dude, I mean, as I was thinking about this program and your followers, like what your mission is, you're trying to encourage entrepreneurs, trying to encourage people to be thankful for life. You don't Joe: Mm Tim: Take Joe: Hmm. Tim: To treat life like the gift it is, you Joe: Yep. Tim: Know? So I did want to offer your followers a coupon code. If they don't have you know, if you have a health food store in your own home town, that's great sport. Those guys, if you have somebody on your team, that's awesome. That's my main passion. And if you need a resource that you can trust, if you go to find your healthy place dotcom and you get something type in coupon code, Castelo, and that'll give 30 percent off the full price on anything on our whole website, we have thousands of products. So anything from V12 to something more intense. And regardless if you buy something or not, use that live chat feature to ask questions. You know, I've had people call my cell phone bill. Hey, Jim, you know, I'm in Wholefoods right now and I'm looking at three different multivitamins. Like which one do you think I should get? You know, and I get to tell them and it's fun and you can share the love. And so use that live chat feature as a resource, because more than ever, dude, we need natural alternatives. We need some education we at least need to know about, like Joel and your Joe: Yeah, Tim: Life partner. Dude, Joe: Yeah. Tim: What if she didn't have that naturopathic doctor that gave her some natural supplements through one of the most intensive crisis's that she ever faced in her life? Like, you know, in your gut that that helped her in a dramatic way because you watched her do P ninety three, the cancer experience. Joe: Yeah. Tim: I mean, that's a miracle, dude. And it took somebody reaching out and it took a resource being willing to respond to create that miracle, you know. And so that's what I want for people. Joe: Yeah, it's I can't stress it enough that Tim: Right. Joe: What I saw before my very eyes every single Tim: Right. Joe: Day and it would and then I see people that are going through cancer of some type and they're only being treated, Tim: As Joe: You know, Tim: A medical doctor, yeah. Joe: And they're their body is just being crushed. Tim: Yes. Joe: And there's and there's nothing, no nothing helping to offset the chemicals and all of the harshness Tim: Know. Joe: Of that treatment. And so. Tim: Right, and let me say, you know, you saw it with somebody you loved very much, I saw it with my mom when I was five or six. And since then, I'm getting goosebumps. I have seen it for thousands of people through the last 11 years that the healthy place has been a company, thousands of people, not always cancer, but but we're talking depression, chronic pain, Crohn's disease, asthma, like people suffering like megacorp. There's so much suffering going on Joe: Mm hmm. Tim: In the world and there is natural alternatives that people literally don't know about. They have nobody in their world telling them. So they just listen to whatever mainstream media or their medical doctor Joe: Yeah. Tim: Or their pharmacist. And there's a lot of good people with good intent in those areas. It's just there's not the voice of natural alternatives. So we need to know about this stuff. We've got to get the word out. Joe: Yeah, it's great, man, I love what you're doing, and this Tim: Think. Joe: Was exciting for me and and I think I actually have your personal email, so I'm just going Tim: That's Joe: To I'm Tim: Awesome. Joe: Going to go I'm going to go ten. I need Tim: You Joe: More Tim: Should. Joe: Energy, Tim. I think I think I have inflammation. And I'm going Tim: Yeah, Joe: To be like. Tim: I know you should, and if anyone's listening to and they because sometimes, you know, they just have a trust factor or whatever, Tim at Find Your Healthy Place Dotcom. I am happy to take emails. This what I get to do all day, dude, and it's just fun. It's so rewarding. You just get to point people in the right direction and help them out. So I love it. Joe: I wish you all the luck in the world, this is a Tim: Thank you. Joe: This is a great thing that you're doing. It's nice to have somebody who is, like you said, it's it's Soulsby before sales. It's a great it's a great way to do it. And I think Tim: Thank Joe: You'll be Tim: You. Joe: Rewarded continually be rewarded for doing Tim: Thank Joe: It that Tim: You. Joe: Way. I'll put everything in the show notes. Thank you for the coupon for the listeners Tim: Now. Joe: And I'll make sure I have all the correct links. So find your healthy place. Dotcom is the website. The company's name is the Healthy Place for locations in Madison, Wisconsin. You eventually might franchise someday, Tim: Yes, Joe: But Tim: And people on Facebook, you know, Joe: Yeah. Tim: The healthy people on Facebook, my wife's a genius as far as really caring for our community there. So you'll find a lot of good content and Instagram as well. So thank you, dear. This Joe: Yeah, Tim: Is. Joe: Tim, thanks so much, man, I really appreciate your time today and thanks for all the insight and I really do wish you the best of luck. Tim: Any time, brother, and wish the same to you. Joe: Thank you, Matt. Tim: I hope you enjoyed this episode, and I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. I know you have many options to listen to various podcasts, and I'm honored that you chose to listen to mine. I would love it if you were to rate my podcast Five Stars and write a nice review. It really helps to bring up the rankings of the podcast. Other listeners, once again, thank you so much for listening to the Joe Costello show. I appreciate you very much.  

Sean Swarner Interesting Facts - Learn how Sean not only beat cancer twice but went on to summit Mt. Everest and the remaining 6 summits and the north and south poles. He now brings hope to all who have cancer and those who have survived cancer with his organization CancerClimber.org. I loved, loved, loved this conversation with Sean and my hope is next July 2022, I will join him to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro and add the names of my own loved ones, who have had to deal with cancer and either survived or lost their battle with this awful disease. Thanks so much for listening! Joe Sean Swarner Speaker | Author | Performance Coach Adventurer | World Record Holder Author of: Keep Climbing: How I Beat Cancer and Reached the Top of the World Website: https://www.seanswarner.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanswarner/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sean.swarner LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seanswarner/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/seanswarner Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, my guest is Shawn Swarner. Sean is an incredible human being, you're not going to believe the things that he has done already in his life. And I am so excited for this interview. As I was talking to Sean offline, I was explaining how the whole thought of summiting Everest is just in itself amazing. And then the way that it's been accomplished by Shaun and the adversity that he had to deal with growing up and just to to be this person that he is. So this is exciting, not just at a sports level or at a level of just doing all these amazing feats, but just just the human drive that this person has. So, Shawn, welcome to the show. Man, I am so excited to have.   Sean: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to do the.   Joe: So I like to start and people that listen to my podcast hear me say this one hundred times that I like to start from the beginning. And I know you probably told the story a million times already, but I like to set a foundation of pollution is where you came from, how you grew up, the main health factors that happen early on, how you got over that and then become who you are today. So if you don't mind, if you could at least give us as much of the back on the floor is yours so as much of the back story that you want to give? I welcome it all.   Sean: I appreciate that and I'm going through my mind, and one of the things that got me through was a sense of humor, which we'll get to, but I'm assuming you probably don't want to go back. Forty six years with my mom and dad got together, then nine months later.   Joe: Yeah, that's got no so that we could start right there. That's what.   Sean: So I came into the world crying and screaming and kicking. And   Joe: There we go,   Sean: I remember it like it was yesterday.   Joe: Right.   Sean: No, I. Well, I guess my I was born and raised in Ohio, just a normal Midwest kid. I remember back in the day before toilet paper was hard to find. We would TPE the coach's house and across country in the house. And then he installed a motion sensor lights. So we had to be a little bit more careful. And I just I learned to. Do things I wasn't supposed to, but I never got caught because I learned how to not get caught. So I was a kind of a studious growing up. But everything was it was completely normal until I was in eighth grade. And I was actually I was going up for a layup and basketball things and I came down and something snapped my neck and it sounded like like, say, for Thanksgiving, you grab the chicken bone and you're pulling on the leg like the ripping the tendons in the ligaments and everything. That's that's kind of what my knee sounded like when I was hobbling over to the stage that to sit down my whole body the next day swallowed up so much. My my mom and dad couldn't even recognize their own son. So they stuck in the local hospital. Willard, Ohio, population was five thousand, I think is maybe five thousand three now. So it's not much just change. Maybe eight stoplights or something like that, but they stuck in the hospital, they started treating me for pneumonia and it's very it's very difficult to cure cancer by sucking on a nebulizer. So I wasn't getting any better. But at 13, I was thinking, well, you know, I'm going to soak up all this attention. I got the cheerleaders coming in. I got my friends coming out of balloons all over my room.   Joe: The.   Sean: It was fantastic. But I didn't know what was going on in my body, which was advanced stage four Hodgkin's lymphoma. And I remember my parents didn't tell me that I had cancer. They told me that I had Hodgkin's. And I can only imagine what they were going through when the doctor told them that I had three months to live. The doctors approach to my my parents said your first born son now has an expiration date. And no one wants to hear that, and I've heard that one of the greatest pains, pains that you can have is outliving your your son or your daughter. So I didn't want that to ever happen to my mom and dad. And I remember very vividly where I was on the bottom of the on my hands and knees in the shower three or four months into treatment. And because of the treatment, I was bald from head to toe. I was on my hands and knees sobbing, just absolutely weeping, pulling chunks of hair out of the drain so the water could go down. And I was also thinking because I was getting ready for school that day, and that's when my hair came up all in that one time in the shower. And I was thinking about what my friends may have been doing at the same time, getting ready for school the same time I was.   Sean: And they were probably worried about the latest hairstyles being popular. If things that in my mind, looking back at it now, were trivial, it meant nothing because there were nights I went to bed not knowing if I was going to wake up the next morning. I mean, can you imagine what it feels like being terrified to close your eyes and fall asleep because you don't know if you're going to wake up. And that's that's what I had to deal with as the 13 year old. So I grew up with a completely different perspective. And thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, family support, prayer just in a will to move forward. I guess if I walked out of the hospital, a hairless, happy, bloated young man and I, I went back into being a quote unquote normal teenager, I guess if there is anything that's that you can say normal for a teenager. But the remission was short lived because I was going in for a checkup for the first cancer when they found a second cancer completely unrelated to the first one. And in fact, on the apparently I'm the only person to ever had Hodgkin's and ask start. And the chances of surviving both of those illnesses is roughly the same as winning the lottery four times in a row with the same numbers.   Joe: Radical Krutch.   Sean: So I think I'm a living, breathing, walking miracle, without a doubt, and. I remember going in for a check for that first cancer in one day, they found a tumor on an X-ray. They did a needle biopsy. They removed a lymph node, put in a hip and catheter. They cracked open my ribs, took out the tumor, are put in danger and started chemotherapy less and less than one day. And they diagnosed me with a type of cancer called ASCAN sarcoma. And that's basically they gave me 14 days to live.   Joe: And this is at age 60.   Sean: 16, so 13, the first cancer, 60   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Percent cancer, cancer, my my whole teenage years were just they were taken from me, from the cancer.   Joe: He's trying to just picture this in my brain of what happens during those years of like those prom, there's sports and it sound like you were active before 13 when you were first diagnosed. So you are definitely you look like someone that would be athletic. So you're missing all of that.   Sean: It's a green, it just makes me look like I'm.   Joe: No,   Sean: I   Joe: But.   Sean: Was I was I was incredibly athletic, and I, I think I because I was a swimmer, I started competitive swimming at maybe five or six years old. And I think I still have some records from the 11, 12 age group.   Joe: Still hold it.   Sean: Still   Joe: Wow, that is so cool.   Sean: Undefeated in the summer league, went to Nationals numerous times. I loved it, but I also think that's one of the reasons why I'm still alive, is because I looked at things differently from a competitive angle, and I pushed myself not to be the best, but I always pushed myself to be my best. And that's what I did, was going through the treatments, I I knew that when I was going through the cancer that I was going to have bad days. And I also knew I was going to have good days. So if today was a bad day, then I just I focused on tomorrow or the next day when I was going to have a good day. And I when I had those good days, I was I was truly living and learning how to be in the present moment.   Joe: Yeah, that's definitely one of the gifts that would come out of what you went through, which people struggle their whole life to eliminate the noise around them and to be present. Right. Because you literally only have this moment right now. So many people worry about what's on the schedule for tomorrow or the future or all of that. And some people even and I'm totally guilty dwell on the past. So I should have done that different. Where would I be today if I had gone left instead of right? So it's it's really hard to bring that in to be present and figure out how to do that. And I would assume that's a that's at least a good outcome of what you went through, is that it forced you to live every day the most that you could, knowing that this just this who knows what tomorrow will bring, if anything. Right.   Sean: Absolutely. I mean, one of the things that I do every morning before I even get out of bed, the instant I open my eyes in the morning, I don't I don't I never hit the snooze, because if you constantly hit the snooze over and over and over again, you're telling yourself subconsciously, I'm excited about the day. The day can wait. But if you turn it off and I actually have a smartwatch and just vibrate so it doesn't wake up my wife. So I turn I turn the alarm off and I lay there and I tell myself the past is done. There's nothing I can do about it. Tomorrow may never come, so no matter what happens today, today is the best day ever. And I have a choice, we all have a choice to make that day turn out however we want it to, and it starts with that morning intention.   Joe: Also, I don't want to get too far because I had so many questions. This is exciting. Like I said, I'm not going to let you go. So 16. So you're you were diagnosed and you're going through all of these treatments. When do you become and for lack of a better term, quote, normal where they say, OK, we've we've clobbered this thing, you're you're in remission and your hair is growing back. You're starting to feel like average every day. 16 year old, our seventh year, however long it took for you to become being normal.   Sean: That's a great question, and I was I was thinking, while you're talking and I honestly want to say that the answer is never.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Because no one's ever had these cancers before. No one no one knows what's going to happen to me.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: I go in once a year for a checkup and they obviously for the past 20, 30 years now, it's come back clean. So I literally see every time I go into to get my blood work done at my annual checkup, I see it as I have another year left. And I try to accomplish as much as I can in that year, so I don't think because of the way I'm looking at it, I don't think I'll ever have a normal life.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: This is my new normal. And I've just adapted to I think because of everything I've been through, I'm comfortable with being uncomfortable. So when when things are going well for me, I'm like, oh, something's going to happen.   Joe: Yeah, so that was I was going to ask you that I just turned fifty nine and I don't envy having that fact for lack of a better term, that cloud hanging over my head, knowing that I went through something, I beat it.   Sean: The.   Joe: But there's always the chance that it'll rear its ugly head. And so people that have to live with that   Sean: And.   Joe: Sort of pressure on them, that has to take its toll. I would I would assume it has to take its toll depending on how you deal with it. Right. And with everything. When you wake up, you have the choice of saying this is going to be a great day. It's going to be a bad day. And for some reason and you can help me with this and hopefully the listeners will really heed your advice on this is why do we always choose the negative part? Like everyone, people just love to complain about how their job sucks so they don't have enough money or whatever the case might be. And if they and I listen, I've gone through my whole life having sort of this always this negative thing, like, why didn't I ever reach this goal or that goal or this accomplishment? And I'm hard on myself about it. And I also know I didn't do the work to potentially get to some of those goals. So I'm starting at this ripe old age admitting to myself, OK, you just didn't put in the time. But now I'm only in the past few months I've really shifted my frame of mind to say I literally have everything that I need know. I love my life. I I love the person that I live with. Joellen, my life partner I love. I have everything that I need. And why would I just complain all the time of all the things that I don't have? And our mutual friend David Meltzer says you literally have to get out of your own way and let the universe deliver to you the abundance that's there. And we actually get in the way of making that happen. So why don't people choose the negative? That's what I want to know.   Sean: Absolutely, and I honestly, I was thinking of a couple of things, one. We do have we have we do have a choice, and when people start to get anxious, when people start to worry about things, it's because of of two words. What if. What if this happens, what if that happens? What if this happens? What if I get cancer again? But you learn to to realize that for me, it was a it was a house of letters. It was a six letter word that that I was allowed to have power over me. So. And recently, it's funny you mention that recently you were thinking of this, that with because I'm doing the same thing recently, I'm realizing that this word cancer. Had so much control and power over me because I allowed that to happen. And then I realized, why am I freaking out over a word? I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely respect cancer and it can be deadly and it oftentimes is. But it's the word that's making me freak out when I go in for my annual checkups. It used to be smelling sailin that would make me think of all these traumatic things that happened in my past. But it doesn't mean it's going to happen again. So when I realize I'm asking myself, what if. I'm projecting into the future and I'm giving my brain permission to go crazy, to come up with any any cockamamie imaginary thing that I can come up with. So when I when I think of my my treatments or what I think of my annual checkup and I constantly, constantly ask myself, what if I realized, well, what if I get cancer, but what if I don't?   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Perfect example.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So I realized that the word itself means nothing. It's what I'm actually placing on that word and how I react to it. So when people hear cancer, they're like, oh, wow. But if this is what I did, I spared myself in the mirror and I said cancer about 50 times over and over and over again. And slowly it lost its power over me. And around thirty five or forty times I looked at myself laughing, what the hell this is? This is crazy. But it's lessened its power over and over and over. You just can't cancel. The more you hear about it, the more you get rid of it, you know, the less power it has over you.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And then why people are focused on on the negative so much. I think it's because unconsciously, people are allowing their brains to be programmed by outside sources. If you look at it, most people probably I would say 80 to 90 percent of the world, the first thing they do when they wake up, they grab their phone, they check their emails, they go on social media, whatever it might be. Either they do it before they go to the bathroom or while they're going to the bathroom. It's one of the. And what happens is if you're not paying attention to what you're consuming, because there's that old saying of you are what you eat, but in all honesty, it is you are what you consume.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So if people are constantly consuming this, this this false information from the media and with the media, let me turn on the news. You don't have to watch it for more than 30 seconds to realize it's going to be depressing   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: Because it's the same stuff all over and over and over again. You have to wait through, what, 60 different stories to see one positive story that takes a point zero five percent of the hour long program. So what people are doing is they're allowing their brains to be programmed by outsiders, outside sources. That outside source is just constantly bombarding their brain with negativity. However you can you have a choice to, like, wake up in the morning and have a positive affirmation, today is the best day ever. I write down my, my, my daily affirmation and I write down three things that I'm going to do and three things I'm going to try to do or and then at the end of the day, as opposed to turning on the news, I get my journal and write down five things I'm grateful for. So I'm essentially bookending my day on a positive note as opposed to, I would say, most of the world they book in their day on the negative note.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: So if you're constantly being bombarded in allowing negative thoughts into your brain, how do you think it's even possible to be positive?   Joe: Yeah, it's I don't know if you hit it on the head and it's just it's it's letting all of that stuff come in from the outside. You have a different perspective for what you went through. And and I think people just take for granted that they're alive and healthy and have a roof over their head and all of the simple things that we just don't we don't think about. And it's important to take a step back and look at that. And instead you take what if and you say, what if all of this stuff went away?   Sean: Now.   Joe: Where would I be right? Or what if all of this stuff tripled and double that? I had even more abundance because of this, this and this. But it seems like what you wish for, what you think about when people concentrate on the negative things, more of that stuff, it's just   Sean: Mike.   Joe: It's just naturally happens. And I was doing it for so long. And now that I've shifted, it's just completely changed. And it's I don't know if it's because it's so hard to understand that you can do that with your own brain and your own inner power to shift your mindset. And people, though, that's all that fufu stuff. And it's not. It's and I think that's why it's so hard to explain. It's so hard to get people to just give it a try. Just 30 days. Just think towards the most positive thing you can think of. And every day just try to eliminate as much negativity in your life will change. And   Sean: Right.   Joe: It's just really hard for people to understand, I think.   Sean: And I think that I mean, there are some there are a large percent of the population who think they're still positive when they're actually being negative to the brain and they don't even realize it. So a perfect example. You're walking down the street and you're telling yourself, don't trip, don't trip. You're going to fall on your face, but if you turn it around it from a different perspective and you tell yourself, stand tall, stand tall, walk strong. When entrepreneurs when people go into the stock market, whatever it might be, I guarantee you they don't think, oh, I don't want to lose money. No, that's state. That's that. People are thinking, I'm being positive. No, they want to make money to focus on what they want. And that's exactly what happened when I was in the hospital. The story of that 13 year old who was 60 pounds overweight in the bottom of the shower floor. Like I mentioned before, I didn't I didn't focus on not dying. I focused on living. I mean, can you imagine how it would have turned out if I kept telling myself, oh, don't die, don't die, don't die or climbing Everest. Hey, don't fall, don't fall, don't fall, don't don't stop. And same thing for runners and people doing anything athletic. I guarantee you people who are so don't stop, don't stop as opposed to make it to that spot. And then when you make it there, make it to the next spot. Same thing in life. People are saying never quit, don't quit your brain, just quit   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: As opposed to make it to that milestone, make it to the next milestone, make it to the next day. Make it to the next day. Keep pushing forward.   Joe: Yeah, that's a great point, and that's what I think really people should take away from this section of what we're talking about is that even when they talk about visualization, right, it's like you're you your body, your brain does not know whether or not you've accomplished something or not. Right. So why not tell it the best story you can write? Why not say that? I, I, I'm like, visualize you're on top of Everest. Like just visualize it until it happens. Right. It's just so you have to tell your own, your own body the best story possible. And I think that's this portion of what we're talking about should be a lesson to say your your body, your brain and your body is listening. So make sure you tell the right story. So can you take us back to your 16? You're going through all this. What's the next phase in your life?   Sean: A wild and crazy college life   Joe: Ok, where was that?   Sean: That was in Westminster College, and I think looking back at it, because my my teen years and my high school years were taken from me, have   Joe: You're going   Sean: You   Joe: To make up for   Sean: Have you ever seen a movie Animal   Joe: The   Sean: House?   Joe: Absolute.   Sean: There you go. And I was Bellucci. I had a wonderful time   Joe: Nice.   Sean: And I wouldn't change a thing. And I started off molecular bio thinking I was going to cure cancer by splicing genes. And I took organic chemistry and immunology. And it's it's pretty difficult to pass those classes when you don't open a book and study. So. So I actually switched to psychology because I was taking a an introductory psych course while I was going through the immunology class. And I really found it fascinating. And I started thinking, oh, well, maybe there's something here where I can help cancer patients and cancer survivors move on with their lives because it's not an individual disease. It affects everybody in the family thinking, OK, well, I have this great insight. Took the GRE, went to Jacksonville, Florida, to go to work on my master's and my doctorate. And then some things happen. I was working for different jobs, trying to go through my doctorate, which is just ridiculous. I mean, just to focus on education. Wow. So at some point I decided that I hadn't dealt with my own issues. Because of what I went through, I never even considered what cancer did to me and how I wanted to quit on the other end, because in college I just I left it behind. I didn't even bring it up. I mean, there I dated some girls and I was thinking, OK, well, how do I bring up that? I'm a survivor. It's not like, you know, dinner conversation. Oh, you know, how how how's your wife and how is your dinner? Oh, I had cancer. You know, he just   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Can't do that.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: So I was so worried about I didn't know what to do. I just I just I forgot about it. So then in grad school is thousands of miles away from Ohio. And it was the first time I actually stopped and looked myself in the mirror and ask myself those deep questions, you know, who are you? What do you want from life? What's your purpose? So I just did some deep, deep understanding of who I was, and then I realized, OK, I had been given a tremendous gift of the mind body connection, and I wanted to help and give back to cancer patients in the cancer world. And that's what I did, more research and more research and kept getting bigger and bigger and thinking higher and higher and like, OK, well, how about we use the biggest platform of the highest platform in the world to scream? Hope the guy. Great. Let's let's go climb Everest. Moved to Colorado just because, like the highest point in Florida is the top of the for the Four Seasons Hotel in Miami.   Joe: And   Sean: So I moved to Colorado, Rocky Mountains   Joe: I love.   Sean: Because I know I don't know too many mountaineers who live in Florida.   Joe: No, no, but it's also.   Sean: So I moved to Colorado and I trained in and literally nine months later flew over to Kathmandu, Nepal, and headed up Everest as the first cancer survivor to some of the highest mountain in the world.   Joe: So what year was this and how old were you?   Sean: Well, that was that was 2002, I actually submitted May 16th at nine thirty two in the morning. So night again almost 20 years ago, 19 years ago. I was twenty seven at the time. That's right.   Joe: And   Sean: Twenty   Joe: You   Sean: Seven.   Joe: Did this with nine months of training.   Sean: Nine months of training and when I first. Well, when I first moved to Colorado, I didn't even have any support. My brother came with me. We lived out the back of my Honda Civic and we camped in Estes Park for two months before we even got a sponsorship.   Joe: Oh, my gosh.   Sean: So we were I remember one morning we woke up, we were going to go climb, I think it's one of the Twin Peaks in Estes Park and we got about two feet of snow in August. And I was thinking to myself, because we're living in the car, that camping, it's like, the hell am I doing here?   Joe: Josh.   Sean: What did I get myself into? My my office was the library and a pay phone bank. So I was calling corporations like Ghatak and Karvelas in the Northeast saying, hey, I'm a two time cancer survivor with one lung and I'm going to go climb Mount Everest in 10 months and I need your help. Ninety nine doors closed in my face.   Joe: Really, that's   Sean: At.   Joe: So surprising that your story is so unique that that one that triggered people to say yes more often.   Sean: But they didn't think it was even possible.   Joe: I guess,   Sean: They thought   Joe: Wow.   Sean: It was physiologically impossible to do that with half your lung capacity, so they like, like I said, nine out of 10 people. I mean, hey, you know, this is my story. Click And I thought it was a joke. So   Joe: What?   Sean: I. I actually have both lungs, but there's so much scar tissue from the radiation treatment, there's really no oxygen transfer. Yeah. So   Joe: So   Sean: It's   Joe: There wasn't removed, it was just   Sean: Like.   Joe: It's just collapsed or   Sean: Now.   Joe: If that's the right term, but   Sean: That's   Joe: The scar tissue,   Sean: A perfect term,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, and this that was from the age 16 to one. A lot of the chemo and radiation was done. That's when it happened.   Sean: Exactly.   Joe: Did you have it? Did you also have chemo and radiation at 13?   Sean: I had chemo the first time and chemo radiation the second time.   Joe: Ok, and so it just affected the one long in the sense that it just created just the scar tissue over   Sean: Correct,   Joe: It where it wasn't. So   Sean: Correct.   Joe: It doesn't really work at all.   Sean: Not not really. In fact, in January, I had a little scare, they think it's a long term side effect from the radiation where I had some spots in my back removed and now I have another another starless by about six inches long where they had to go remove that. But if that's all I have to do, the first cancer, the second cancer is 16, 17, and the now 46 year old. Cut it out. I'm good.   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok, so we are. You said what was the date again,   Sean: May 16th.   Joe: May 16th of two thousand and two,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: And you were twenty seven years old, OK? And so you trained nine months before you decided you said, I'm going to go do this. So you you set aside nine months to get ready for this.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Ok, so does the training. Is the training the stuff that I saw in some of the videos where you're you're pulling a sheet behind you and and whatever, your pull tire's up a hill and like, how did you figure out how to train for such as that?   Sean: So that was actually when I when I went to the North Pole a couple of years ago, but for training going up to up Everest, there's lungs Long's peak, which is 18 miles round trip, and it's it's fourteen thousand two hundred and fifty six feet. And I eventually worked my way up to climbing that peak once a week with 100 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So I would train myself and I'll go up onto that peak and into the Rocky Mountain National Park in a bad day, thinking that a bad day on Long's peak was probably better than a good day on Everest. And what I do a training for, for anything like the North Pole, the Hawaii Ironman, I did that. I train harder than I think the event actually event is going to be for two reasons. I get my body in shape, my mind in shape, but also I'm thankful I don't have to train more and I'm more excited about the actual event.   Joe: Right. That's crazy. So what is a normal when you're when you're training for something like that? What what would be a normal day in Sean's life? What time do you get up? What kind of stuff do you like? I can't even fathom something like this. I just   Sean: Well.   Joe: Got done skiing and snowboarding in Utah. I got home last night. I went with the old my oldest friend. We went from elementary and junior high and high school. And   Sean: Now.   Joe: Our families were friends and his father was my dentist. And so he said, I'm going to snowboard spring skiing. I haven't been skiing in twenty five plus years.   Sean: Now.   Joe: Like, come on, let's go. And I was a good skier a long time ago and yeah, I just can't imagine what it would take. My legs were shot. So what does it take. What's Seans the day in the life of of what you do.   Sean: Well, I'm going to challenge you again, then, what are you doing July twenty, Fourth to August seven?   Joe: I saw that and I was like, God, I want to do that. So   Sean: So.   Joe: Explain. So since you're talking about. Explain what that is before we talk about your daily routine. So   Sean: Well,   Joe: Explain.   Sean: Yeah, that would lead into it, because I everybody every year I take a group of Kilimanjaro as   Joe: That's.   Sean: A fundraiser for cancer charity, and what we do is we actually we pay for a survivors trip. And then it's the responsibility of that survivor to raise funds for next year's survivor, kind   Joe: Oh,   Sean: Of   Joe: Wow.   Sean: Paying it forward. Anyone can go. We just fund the survivors trip. And this year we actually have enough funds to send to survivors. So I'm hoping with those two survivors, there isn't. They raise enough funds to take three and twenty twenty two and then maybe five and twenty, twenty three and so forth up to. I'd love to take 15 people, 15 survivors for free every year at   Joe: Wow, that's   Sean: All   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: Costs. But for Kilimanjaro, let's say I would, I would wake up and about four miles from here we have a set of stairs that are pretty steep and there are two hundred and I live at I want to say sixty, sixty four, sixty five hundred feet. So I'm already an altitude which helps a lot.   Joe: Is   Sean: I   Joe: It?   Sean: Wake up in the morning before sunrise and eventually I will do that. That set of stairs 10 to 15 times with about 70 or 80 pounds of rocks in my backpack. So you're talking what, two thousand, maybe, maybe three, four thousand steps up and down in how many stairs are there? The Empire State Building. I think there's one thousand something so   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Less than I did.   Joe: Right. Wow.   Sean: Then come back, wake my wife up, will do some yoga, eat breakfast, come here to do some work on my laptop, and then I'll probably either do it depending on the day, either rowing, lifting or running, and then on the weekends go out and do a 14 or something like that and a 14 year, a fourteen thousand foot peak. But I also have a sponsorship through a company called Hypoxic Go   Joe: Check.   Sean: Where there's this machine. I call it Arcudi to like R-2 because it's tiny and it actually filters out oxygen to simulate altitude. So I'll I'll do the yoga, I'll do the rowing machine or and I'm doing this because it's a mask of   Joe: For those of you who are listening, he's putting his hand over his face.   Sean: Just randomly. That's that's what I do. And I work out, I,   Joe: That's right.   Sean: I, I'll do those workouts at home on a mask that's connected to this machine and I'll end up doing these workouts at nineteen thousand feet. So what I'm doing is I'm pretty acclimatizing my body because I have to make up for the lack of my right lung because when you get into altitude there's less oxygen, you know, it's spread out, spread out further. And when you get to like if we left, if we went from here to the top of Everest, we'd be dead in five minutes just because of the lack of oxygen. So I treat it and I try to pre acclimatize myself. And when we go to Kilimanjaro, I tell people my training schedule and like, I could never do that. Well, remember, you're training for yourself. I'm training for me and ten other people.   Joe: Right.   Sean: So   Joe: Right.   Sean: This if you're interested, this would be my 21st summit of Kilimanjaro.   Joe: That's incredible in regards to what you eat, are you like a very strict like is everything that you do? Very strict and regimented.   Sean: Not not everything, I mean, I give myself some leniency sugar during the week, I don't do on the weekends   Joe: Ok.   Sean: On Easter. Yeah, I have those little malt balls, you know, the Easter Mother's Day. But for the most part, I mean, no sugar. See, what did I have just for lunch? My wife made a salad. We had some chick like a chicken, homemade chicken salad. We're very conscious of what we eat. We stay away from the sugars. No. And that means no white pasta, no white bread. I love I've always loved broccoli. I just eat healthy.   Joe: Right.   Sean: Every once in a while I'll have a burger or steak, but, you know, maybe once a month.   Joe: Beer, a glass of wine, no.   Sean: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I   Joe: Ok,   Sean: Like I actually I brew beer at home too.   Joe: Ok, OK,   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: It's great because when I travel you know, I make the beer, I come back two weeks later I'm like, oh beer.   Joe: There you go. OK, cool.   Sean: Oh.   Joe: So were you afraid going Tavaris like, I can't I can't even imagine I'm telling you to sit here and talk with you about this. I I've watched like we've talked about before, we actually started recording, watched the shows, the different movies or documentaries about it and the getting frostbite and people getting pneumonia and their sister, their body shutting down. And they're having to have the tip of like my nose is red right now from being sunburned and windburn from Snover. And I'm like, I don't I can't even fathom all the things that must go through your brain. And then watching where you cross over on that, I don't even know what it's called. You think I know after   Sean: Remasters   Joe: Watching.   Sean: Have.   Joe: Yeah. The with the ones with the ladders. Right. I don't know how many of those you have to cross and I just I don't know. And then the spots where I don't even know if this is something people point out on the way up or on the way down. But that's where we had to leave so and so like at the all those things go into your brain and you don't want to be the weak link in the chain. Something happens to you and then all of a sudden other people have to descend, like, I don't even know how that works. So, I mean, arriving at base camp must have been just like incredible and scary as hell. I've been like, oh, my gosh, there's no turning back here. It is base camp. And I'm and I said, I'm going to do this.   Sean: I think for me, I obviously was focused on the summit, I wanted to get to the top like everybody else who goes over there, but I think I was more focused on enjoying the whole process because literally when I got to base camp, every step outside of base camp was my personal record for altitude. I had never been any higher than base camp. But so every step was higher than I'd ever been, so   Joe: What   Sean: I   Joe: Is   Sean: Am.   Joe: What is base camp at?   Sean: Seventeen thousand six hundred feet.   Joe: Ok, and you and you're saying this machine you use change you at nineteen thousand.   Sean: But I didn't I didn't have that machine before   Joe: Oh,   Sean: I.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: So the highest I have ever been was just around just below fourteen thousand five hundred feet, which is the highest mountain here in Colorado.   Joe: That's correct.   Sean: Albert.   Joe: Wow.   Sean: And when I got to the summit of Everest, I mean, it was double the whatever, the highest point I'd ever been. But I knew that I was so focused on, you know, you asked me about being afraid, there were times that those little. Negative seeds got planted in my brain, but I didn't want them. I didn't let them grow and I was very mindful and very aware of when those thoughts came in my brain, because looking back at the same analogy of that young boy on the shower floor, I focused on living as opposed to not dying. And when I when I was crossing the ladders on on the glass across the crevasses, I wasn't focused on, hey, don't fall in the crevasse. I was focused on making it to the next side. And when we passed the dead bodies, I stepped over a number of dead bodies. I just I tried to not ask myself the question, I did this when I got back down. Why did he die? Why would nine? And what's the difference, like, why would I why would I be worthy and he wouldn't be. But it's it's like anything in life where you just don't know sometimes. Why did I get cancer? I don't know. It's a whole question. Why me? Why me? Well, the fact of the matter is, it was me. So deal with it. Why not me?   Joe: Yeah, I've had this conversation with other people on the podcast who have gone through some adversity. I you know, I feel like that adversity has been given, fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, because the outcomes of things that you've learned through what you've gone through have created this person, this mental strength, and someone who is very happy day to day or other people, just no matter, they could be having the most amazing life and they still complain. But I feel like, you know, the adversity has been given to people with strength, and I'm not sure if that's true. It's something I made up of my own brain because I think I'm such a wimp that I cut my finger. I start like I don't know how I would deal with what you've gone through, what other people around me have gone through. So that's what's my own little story, I tell myself. So you just didn't choose me because he knew I couldn't handle it, so.   Sean: But but you never know what you can handle until you're put in that situation.   Joe: Right.   Sean: And people always say say things like that all the time, I don't. My God, I have no idea what I would do if I was ever in your situation. You don't know.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And you'd be amazed at how much you can actually handle when you are in that situation.   Joe: Yeah, that's incredible. OK, so you're at base camp and how many are you in? I don't know how you travel if there's 12 or 15 or whatever the number is. How many are there with you going up?   Sean: So, as you probably know, a normal Everest expedition could I mean, it could be 20, 30 people.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: A number of sardars Sherpas, you name it, and clients. I had my brother at base camp, a cook at base camp, two Sherpas and me, and that was it. We were I say I was we were on a shoestring budget, but we didn't even have shoelaces. So we.   Joe: Did   Sean: It   Joe: You end   Sean: Was.   Joe: Up ever getting sponsorship before you left?   Sean: I did in   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One of   Joe: Good.   Sean: Them was Ghatak, one was Capello's, and   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Believe it or not, I didn't even have a summit suit a week before I was supposed to go up for the top. And just my crazy luck. And I know it's not like it was by the big guy upstairs, but the north face came in with my my summit suit and it actually said Shantz Warner Everest base camp on the box. And it got to.   Joe: Wow, that's crazy.   Sean: It's like two or three days before I was supposed to go up in the sun at my summit suit came in.   Joe: That is nuts. Wow. All right, so when you start out, how long does it. How long should it take you or how long is like the most that you can spend up that high? Like, is there a period of time that you have the summit? And I know it's due to weather, too, right. You have to sometimes   Sean: At.   Joe: Just go. We can't make the attempt today. The weather is just not good enough. So what did it end up taking you from base camp to summoning Everest?   Sean: So a lot of people don't understand that when you get there, you don't go from base camp and go up to Camp One, spend a couple of days there, go up to camp to spend a couple of days there, three, four. Same thing from the south side. We actually there are four camps and then with base camp there.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So we arrived at base camp April 8th and I summited May 16. So almost a month and a half. The whole time we're going from base camp up higher, establishing different camps and then coming back down so that that does two things, we go up with a full back, a pack drop off stuff and then go back with an empty backpack, go back up with a full pack your stuff and go back down. So, like I said, does two things. It actually transports the gear and material that we need to each camp, food, gear, whatever. But it also is getting our body adjusted to the altitude.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: So then we would go up and down, up and down, up and down after we established three and then four when when you get to camp for your before you get to Camp four, you pay attention to the weather. And there's a weather window because everybody has seen that that quintessential picture of Everest with the snow plume   Joe: Yep,   Sean: Blowing off the top.   Joe: Yep.   Sean: That's because that's because the sun is puncturing the jetstream, the just   Joe: Uh.   Sean: Tunnels, the summit, two   Joe: Huh?   Sean: Hundred three hundred miles an hour. So it's impossible to climb on that. So what happens is pre monsoon season, there's a high pressure system that pushes the jet stream north. And that's when people sneak up on top of Everest and come back down. So you see on I guess you don't look on a map, but meteorologists know and they give you a weather window like it's usually mid-May. For us, it was supposed to be May 15th where the weather window was good. But for whatever reason, that may on May 14th, we were supposed to move to May 15th and go up for the summit. I was at camp three and I was suffering a mild form of cerebral edema, which is altitude induced swelling of the brain. And I couldn't move. So every single other expedition who was on the same schedules, us went from Camp three, moved to Camp four and went to the summit that night. The next morning, the winds were howling. They came down the aisle retreat, and they lost their opportunity to climb. I slept on an oxygen that day. The next morning we went up to camp for summited on May 16th, a day later, and there was just a slight breeze in the top. We spent about 30 minutes up there to forty five minutes, which is unheard of.   Joe: Who's medically trained to tell you what's wrong with you or do you just have to know, like there's no one is like in your own little group, it's you just have to know what's right or wrong with you and how to fix it.   Sean: In my group, yeah, I mean, in other expeditions are expedition doctors, you know, everybody there were we made friends with some people from Brown University who were doing a study up there. And it was it's actually really funny. They're doing a study on how the altitude affects the brain. And they gave me this book and I became a volunteer to help with the study. And I was at Camp three when I was acclimatizing and not going up for the summit, but just sleeping at Camp three is going to come back down the mountain like a little Rolodex thing. It's like the size of an index card and you flip it back and on the front of it, you're supposed to pick out which object was was different, which which one didn't belong. And it was like a small triangle, a large triangle, a medium sized triangle and a Pentagon or something like that. Right.   Joe: So.   Sean: And so and each each are different. So big, medium, small square in a circle you pick out the circle. But it was funny. So I get up to camp three and I'm radioing down to them. All right. You guys ready to go? Yeah, we're good. So I flip it over and I'm thinking I'm going to have some fun with this.   Joe: All right.   Sean: So I go page one, the Penguin Page to the House, page three, the dog. And keep in mind, they're all geometric shapes. So   Joe: All   Sean: I think.   Joe: Right, to the naming of animals, as they say, oh, for.   Sean: It's like I take my thumb off the microphone and there's a long silence.   Joe: It's not.   Sean: And all of a sudden, Sean, are you feeling OK?   Joe: Right.   Sean: Like, yeah, why, what's going on? There are no animals.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh, they were probably like, oh, we got to get a helicopter up there.   Sean: They were thinking, we need to get emergency up there and get him down off the mountain.   Joe: That is so funny. Oh, my gosh. So is it true that it gets backed up up there when people are trying to summit during a certain season?   Sean: It is now when I was there, it wasn't as bad   Joe: Check.   Sean: And also. A few years ago, there was a big earthquake and there used to be a section called the Hillary Step,   Joe: Yep, I   Sean: And   Joe: Remember hearing.   Sean: So it used to be a chunk of rock that used to hang out. And literally, if you took six inches off to your left side, you would plummet a mile and a half straight down. And there was that section where only one person could go up or one person could go down at a time, and that's where the bottleneck usually was. So with the earthquake, what I've heard is that there's no longer a Hillary step. It's more like a Hillary slope now because that giant rock has been dislodged. But from the obviously you saw a picture from a couple of years ago that just that long queue of people, apparently it's getting a little out of control.   Joe: And that's crazy. Would you ever do it again? Do you ever care about doing it again?   Sean: Well, as is my family or my wife going to hear this this time, I don't know if it calms down and it becomes less popular, I honestly would I would like to attempt it again without oxygen to see if it's possible to climb Everest with one lung and no no supplemental oxygen.   Joe: Who was the guy that did it with no, nothing.   Sean: Reinhold Messner, he's climbed, yeah, and then there's also a guy named Viscose who climbed the 8000 meter peaks. So it's been it's been done numerous times, but the first person who did it was Mesner. I believe.   Joe: No oxygen, it just all right. Yeah, I don't want to get you in trouble with your wife, so we'll just, well, not talk about it anymore, OK? I'm telling you, I can sit here and talk to you forever, and I want to respect your time. I don't want to run too far over. So besides everything you've done every day, the tallest peak on every continent at this point, is that true?   Sean: Correct. Still the seven summits,   Joe: Yeah,   Sean: Yep.   Joe: Ok, and then along with that, you have this series of books that you're doing. Can you explain what that's about, what people find when they give each one of those books?   Sean: Oh, sure, yeah, it's actually it's in the infant stages right now, but it's called the Seven Summits to Success. And I just signed an agreement with a publishing company. We're producing we're publishing the first one which is conquering your Everest, where it helps people bring them kind of into my life and understand how I've done what I've done, not just what I've done, what I've done, not what I've done I've done, not what I've done, but how I've done what I've done.   Joe: Yeah.   Sean: And it's also it's very similar to what I just I put together called the Summit Challenge, which is an online series of individual modules, seven different modules walking people through. Utilizing their own personal core values to accomplish things like self actualization, and at the end they essentially find their purpose and it came from the concept and the idea where after a keynote presentation, so many people would come up and say, that's a great story, but a handful would say, that's a great story. And then followed up with a question, but how did you do it? And then looking at Kilimanjaro again, the average success rate on the mountain is roughly forty eight percent, meaning fifty two people out of 100 don't even make it to the top. And like I said, this this July with my twenty first summit with groups and our groups are at 98 percent success rate, double that of the average. So I was thinking, OK, well what's what's the difference? And the difference is I've been subconsciously imparting what I've learned going through the cancer because my first goal was to crawl eight feet from a hospital bed to the bathroom, and then I ended up climbing twenty nine thousand feet to the top of the world. So all those little things, those little insights that I've learned, I've been imparting on people in my groups. So we do something every day that's different to help people get up there. In the main, the main understanding that they get is understanding what their personal core values are. Because once you hold fast to your personal core values and you have an understanding of a deeper purpose, nothing is going to get in your way.   Joe: So in that kind of brings us back to when you left college and you decided that you're you're camping with your brother and then you decide you're going to do this thing to Everest. Right. Was that the beginning of this this portion of Shawn's life where you're going to do these things? But now there's an underlying what's the word I'm looking for this an underlying mission, which is you're you're doing this, I guess, because you like to challenge yourself. Obviously, you just want to you're so happy with the fact that you have been given this chats with   Sean: Right.   Joe: With what happened to you. You're going to make the most of it. So here I am, Sean Zwirner. I am so grateful that I went through two different types of cancer that easily either one of them could have killed me. One of them ruined one of my lungs. I'm still living. Not only that, but I'm going to make the most of every day. So you go to Everest, you do this, you accomplish that, and then you say, OK, that that's that's it. You went for the biggest thing on your first run. You would start out small. You just like, screw it, I'm going to Everest. And then after that, all these other things would be cakewalks, and I'm sure they're not. But then you did all seven summits. And now, though, is it the underlying mission is that you are you are the voice of cancer survivors and and what you do and I don't want to put any words in your mouth, so stop me at any moment. But is it like you're doing this to to to provide hope for them to say, listen, I not only did it twice, but I am living at the highest level of accomplishment and and I don't know what there's so many words I can think of that you just you want them to all think the same way, just keep pushing forward, get the most out of life. And I'm here to support you. And look at me. I've done it. I'm not just spewing words from a stage. I've literally gone out and done this. So I want you to be on this journey with me, both mentally, physically, if you can. Does that make sense or that I just destroy it?   Sean: No, absolutely, I I wouldn't I wouldn't personally profess that I am the voice of survivors if others want to think that that that's great. But I wouldn't I wouldn't declare myself that. But I have found a deeper purpose. And it did start with Everest, because when I made it to the summit, I had a flag that had names that people touched by cancer on it.   Joe: Yeah, I saw that, yep.   Sean: And that was always folded up in my chest pocket, close to my heart as a constant reminder of my goals in my inspiration, and I planted a flag on the top of Everest. I planted a flag on the seven summits, the highest on every continent. And I also planted a flag at the South Pole and most recently at the North Pole. And I think it initially started. With the concept of I don't want to say infiltrating the cancer community, but getting there and showing them exactly what you said, you know, being up on stage and saying, hey, I'm not just talking the talk, I'm walking it as well. I know what it's like being in your situation. I know what it's like to have no hope. But I also know what it's like on the other side. And I also know what it's like to scream from the rooftops that there's there's a tremendous life after after cancer and it can be a beautiful life. So a lot of people who and like I said, it started off with cancer, but now it's it's reached out to anybody who's going through anything traumatic, which is with the state of the world, is it's everybody now. So with with any uncertainty, you can use that, especially with my cancer. It wasn't the end. It was the beginning. So what the world is going through right now, it's not necessarily the end. It's not uncertainty. How we come out of this on the other side is entirely up to us. And it's our choice. And we can use all the trials and tribulations and turn that into triumph of success if we want. It is all based on our own perspectives.   Joe: So you come off of Everest and then there's your life now become this person who is going to continue to push themselves for because you obviously want to live this amazing life and you don't you just do love the adventure. You love the thrill of the accomplishment. I'm sure all of that stuff that any of us would love, like I went skiing for three days of twenty five years. I'm glad I'm still alive. Sit and talk   Sean: They.   Joe: Because trust me, I wasn't the guy you were talking about walking down the sidewalk and say, don't trip down. I was like, you're fifty nine. You break a bone now you're screwed, you're breakable. And I'm going over. These moguls go, oh my gosh, why am I here? How did you survive? How does someone like that survive financially? How do you survive financially that you now did that? Does that start to bring in sponsorships and endorsements and book deals and speaking deals, or is it just the snowball that happens? And how do you decide that this is the path your life is going to take?   Sean: You would think so, and I've been approached by numerous corporations where the conversation went, something like me telling them, well, I really can't use your product up in the mountains and doing what I do. They say, OK, we'll just take the money we're going to give you by which you really use but endorse our product. So if I went if I went down that path, absolutely, I would be living the high life.   Joe: Right.   Sean: But because I'm a moral and ethical person, I think.   Joe: So.   Sean: It's not nearly what you probably think it is, I don't have people banging down my door for a movie. I don't have people banging down my door for a book. And I think it's because most of the media that we see on television is is paid for media. And every time I reach out to a production company or a marketing company or a PR company, they're usually the first question is what? What's your budget? OK, well, how about the story? How about helping people? Because like I said, every morning I write an affirmation down, in fact, or was it just yesterday was I will give more than I receive. I will create more than I consume. And I think most people who don't understand that think that you're living in a state of lack. And maybe I am. But I'm also incredibly grateful for everything we have. And do I want my story out there? Absolutely. But I don't need to make millions and millions of dollars on it. And what I what I want to do is take those millions and millions of dollars and take cancer survivors up Kilimanjaro every year. I'd love to do that three or four times a year. So I'm always looking for people who can who can jump in here and help me out and share my story with others to give back to help people and help them believe in themselves and help them find their purpose, their their inner drive, their inner.   Joe: Is this is going to sound so stupid, so forgive me, so when you do this, this trek up Kilimanjaro, you do it in July, right?   Sean: Yeah, yeah,   Joe: It.   Sean: People should arrive at Kilimanjaro International Airport July 20 for.   Joe: Ok, is it cold up there?   Sean: It depends. That's a it's not a stupid question,   Joe: Really,   Sean: But   Joe: I   Sean: That's   Joe: Thought   Sean: Like   Joe: You were going to   Sean: Asking.   Joe: Be like, yeah, it's it's it's however many thousand   Sean: Oh.   Joe: Feet. What do you think, Joe?   Sean: But that would be like me asking you, hey, what's it like in snowboarding? What's it going to be like in snowboarding? July? Twenty Fourth. Twenty twenty three. I mean, you have a rough estimate.   Joe: I.   Sean: So in going up Kilimanjaro, it's one of the most beautiful mountains I've been on because you go through so many different climactic zones getting up that you start off in an African rainforest where it can be a torrential downpour. It's always green, but it could be a torrential downpour or it can be sunny and the sun kind of filters through the canopy and you'll see these little streams of light coming to the camp, which is beautiful. And then the next day, it's it could be sunny or rainy, but it goes through so many different zones. You just have to be prepared for each one summit night. However, yes, it's tremendously cold. It can be zero degrees or maybe even minus 10. But with the right gear, you're going to be fine. I mean, there's there's no such thing as bad weather, just bad year.   Joe: Well, here's a good question, and if someone was to go on this is how do they get that gear that they have to buy all that stuff?   Sean: You can you can purchase it or you can rent it over there. I've used the same group of people for the past 18 months, and if you're if you're never going to use a zero degree sleeping bag again in your life, just rent it for 30 bucks. You don't spend three hundred four hundred dollars to buy one. Or if you do buy one and you're never going to use again, give it to my friends, the Sherpas of who use it all the time.   Joe: Right, so basically somebody's going on this could, when they arrive there, get everything they need to make it happen.   Sean: Well, except for your boots and your underwear, you probably don't want to rent me underwear.   Joe: The point well taken. OK, go. So I want to ask you about the Big Hill challenge.   Sean: So great, the big Hill challenge is actually an abridged version of the summit challenge, so some challenges this really in-depth twenty one week program where you take micro challenges and utilize something that you learn and just incorporate into your daily life. The Big Hill challenge is going to be a three week challenge where I take a group of one hundred people at a time and work them through three weeks of little micro challenges to help them along.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And they're both based on understanding and utilizing your personal core values.   Joe: Perfect. And these can be found on your website.   Sean: Yeah, you can go to the summit challenge dotcom event eventually, you can go to the Big Hill challenge dotcom,   Joe: Ok,   Sean: But every   Joe: Ok,   Sean: One or dotcom.   Joe: Ok, great, because I'll put all of this in the show, notes and everything else, I wrote this question down because I wanted to make it clear that besides your website, Shawn   Sean: Like.   Joe: Swane or Dotcom, you have the cancer Climategate.   Sean: Correct.   Joe: Can you explain can you explain that site to me and what the goal of that site is?   Sean: So cancer climber, cancer climate Doug is actually the organization my brother and I founded that funds trips for cancer survivors to kill javu.   Joe: Ok.   Sean: And actually, if we raise, my goal is to raise about two million dollars to have a mobile camp for kids with cancer.   Joe: Wow. That's   Sean: Because   Joe: Incredible.   Sean: You there are camps all over the country, all over the world, but oftentimes you can't get the survive or you can't get the patient to the camp because of the compromised immune system. So I thought, well, what if there's a semi truck that brings the camp to the kids?   Joe: Hmm, that's interesting. That's a really cool. And the reason I ask about coming on being cold is because Joel in my my better half of 20 some years survived breast cancer. It was lymph node sort of stuff. So taken out and be like God. But she hates the cold like she I would be so cold to do something like this with her. She just literally I mean, I don't know if she would go the last section to the summit because her cold do not mix. She's so happy here in Arizona and she never complains about the heat. So   Sean: My.   Joe: That's the only reason I ask that. So.   Sean: My wife was born and raised in Puerto Rico,   Joe: Ok.   Sean: Forty forty years of her life, and she went with me.   Joe: She.   Sean: She did. She hated the last night, but she's so happy she didn't.   Joe: So it's really just the one night that's the   Sean: Yeah.   Joe: Coldest. So it's one night out. How long does it take to get from where you started out in the rainforest to the.   Sean: So the whole trip itself is a seven day trip up and down the mountain summit on the morning of the 6th, we leave the evening of the 6th, and then after we come off the mountain, we actually go we fly into the Serengeti and do a four day safari to the Serengeti.   Joe: And when you're staying on the way up to the summit, or is it just like caps right   Sean: But   Joe: There? Oh, so that's it. There it is.   Sean: The.   Joe: That's right. So the people that are listening to this on the podcast, you'll have to look at the YouTube video later. But he's showing me the actual   Sean: The.   Joe: Tents and. And is everybody carrying their own tent?   Sean: No, I actually, because I've been there so many times, we pay two porters per person to haul your gear up and all you have to worry about is your day pack some water, snacks, showers, your camera, sunscreen, hat, stuff like that. I don't want anybody carrying anything more than, say, twenty five thirty pounds up the mountain, but the sort of porters will actually give them the leave. After we leave camp, they'll pass us on the way.

In this week's Solidarity Fridays episode, Kyle, Joe, and Michelle start out by reflecting on the awesome conversation with Dr. Carl Hart from earlier in the week and everything it made them think about concerning the drug war, society's framing of addiction, how different drugs have been vilified in different eras, privilege, and how greed is keeping the truth from us. They then launch into the articles, which really run the gamut: Nebraska's governor saying cannabis will kill your children, the Biden administration asking staffers to resign over past cannabis use (What? A politician LIED TO US?!), a study from 2008 showing no statistical difference between SSRI and placebo effects (notable because it mirrors findings from the recent microdosing study they keep discussing), and an opinion piece on the healing power of mushrooms. They then talk about an interesting study where researchers are looking to predict who will do best with psychedelic-assisted therapy, and who might have a really challenging experience. Could you always predict that? Or is it just about getting to know a patient, supporting them, and titrating the dose, hence the title? And since there aren't enough links on this page: If you've been looking to take the Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists live course you keep hearing about, new dates are up, so now is the time! And if you want a free copy of Dr. Carl Hart's amazing book, Drug Use for Grown-Ups, we're giving away 5, thanks to Penguin Random House, so make sure to enter the giveaway! Notable Quotes "Why are we only concerned about someone’s psychological well-being when it has to do with drugs?” -Michelle “Heroin was killing a lot of Black men in the 70s and no one cared. And now that it’s killing all these white people with opioids and all this middle-class stuff, all of a sudden, we care. And we want harm-reduction and we want laws and we want drug-checking. But no one gave a fuck 40 years ago.” -Michelle “So we had the war on drugs and ‘drugs are bad.’ ‘Weed, psychedelics- they’ll make you go crazy.’ And now we have that part of the drug war sort of ending and we’re legalizing them and we’re making money off of them, so all of a sudden, we’ve gone from one untruth which is 'all drugs are bad’ to this kind of other untruth which is like, ‘Weed and psychedelics: they’ll save your life, they’re great, everyone should use them!’ It’s like, fuck, dude, where was the middle? Where was the neutral? Where was the actual truth?” -Michelle “How do we catch medicine up to the state of science? Medicine seems to be 10 to 30 years behind science, often. ...Sorry doctors- I don’t mean to insult you, but it’s your field, it’s not you as an individual. If you’re listening to this show, clearly you’re ahead of the curve.” -Joe “Just thinking about how transpersonal came out of the humanistic movement because they needed something new, we’re at a new point where like, how do we incorporate and integrate a lot of this neuroscience, the somatics, the transpersonal, the depth, and what could a new field look like? ...What would that look like to create a new branch of psychology that really incorporates and integrates a lot of this stuff, and the impact that psychedelics have had on this? What type of theories and frameworks do we need, moving forward, as psychedelics become more integrated into the culture and into the medical realm? Do we need to bring psyche back a little bit with the psychedelics, to really help give a framework or some context to some of these transpersonal and numinous experiences?” -Kyle  Links Hilary Agro’s tweet Narconomics: How to Run a Drug Cartel, by Tom Wainwright Hightimes.com: Nebraska Gov. Pete Ricketts Says Marijuana Will ‘Kill Your Children’ Norml.org: Marijuana Regulation and Teen Use Rates Rollingstone.com: Evanston, Illinois Will Use Weed Tax to Fund Nation’s First Government Reparations Program Thedailybeast.com: Biden White House Sandbags Staffers, Sidelines Dozens for Pot Use Ncbi.nlm.nih.gov: Initial Severity and Antidepressant Benefits: A Meta-Analysis of Data Submitted to the Food and Drug Administration The Emperor's New Drugs: Exploding the Antidepressant Myth, by Irving Kirsch, PhD Chemistryworld.com: LSD: cultural revolution and medical advances Bdnews24.com: Can magic mushrooms heal us? Talkbusiness.net: Alice Walton’s Whole Health Institute will build a new medical school in Bentonville Scienceblog.com: Predicting Who May Do Best With Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Pubs.acs.org: Predicting Reactions to Psychedelic Drugs: A Systematic Review of States and Traits Related to Acute Drug Effects Psychedelics Today: Kyle Buller and Joe Moore – A Clinical Approach to Trauma Resolution Utilizing Breathwork Support the show! Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics  

I had the honor to interview Brian Bogert who for me, is a real life superhero in a sense. He has dealt with his share of adversity and he continues to brush himself off while continuing to bust through barriers to create his best self. I admire all that he has accomplished in his life and he's here to help other accomplish the same and more. He goal to impact over a billion people is lofty yet if there is anyone who can do, I'm putting my money on Brian. This was a special episode as Brian was so gracious and share so much and sometimes the conversation gave me a lump in my throat as we went deep. I sure hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did creating it with Brian. Thanks for listening! Much love, Joe Brian Bogert: Human Behavior and Performance Coach, Keynote Speaker, YouTuber, Podcaster and Course Creator Founder - Brian Bogert Companies Website: https://brianbogert.com/ No Limits: https://brianbogert.com/no-limits/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bogertbrian/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/bogertbrian YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmhaMgY8q-tMMCj0rpGg7iw LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-brian-bogert-companies/ Email: info@brianbogert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, today, I want to welcome my guests, Mr. Brian Boger. Brian, welcome.   Brian: What's up, Joe, I love I love that shirt you're rockin no limits, soldier, right there. I   Joe: Hey,   Brian: Love it.   Joe: There you go. You know what? So since we're talking about the shirt, we've brought it up. Explain to me the purpose behind this shirt. I know that you give all the money away to   Brian: One hundred   Joe: Charity.   Brian: Percent of the proceeds, huh? Yeah, so I'll first describe kind of what no limits is just high level and then we'll talk about kind of where this is. No limits is is part of our branding. And it's this belief that I genuinely feel like we all can live with no limits. It's not that we're unlimited and we can do anything we want. It's that we can live significantly beyond the limits we place on ourselves and certainly be on the way the world has placed limits on us. And so that infinity sign, there's a lot of intentionality around it, which is really about awareness and intentionality and how those weave together to help us find who we are so we can live with no limits with our life in alignment. And so as we've been building this brand, there's always been this altruistic philanthropic side of me. Everything I do and desire for me to be financially successful is also for my ability to distribute that wealth back out into the community. So when we had an opportunity that people started to really attach to the brand and what they were doing were like, you know what, let's make some apparel. And we've got, I think, five different t shirt designs, both in men and women. We actually also have a dog design, too. I'll explain that in a second.   Brian: But the reason we did it is one hundred percent just to allow people to attach to it. You see, there's not Brian Bogot companies and stuff written all over it. Right? It's really the infinity in no limits and embedding people in that. And one hundred percent of the proceeds are going to nonprofits that we're going to rotate on a quarterly basis. And so, you know, it's just another cool way. You know, I'm not gonna make a bunch of money off t shirts. That wasn't something that needed to move the needle. But, you know, people can attach to the brand and feel like they're doing something better. Their investments also helping more lives. And a big part of who I am, I'm on a mission to impact a billion lives by twenty, forty five. This is just another way to perpetuate that. The dog shirts are that we're an animal family and my wife is like obsessed with them. And she's like, we can't have apparel without matching dog apparel, which just saw me die laughing because I still think it's so ridiculous. But I love my wife to death and every time my animals wear clothing, it just makes me laugh. But it's been cool because, yeah, those are those who go to support our local Humane Society and ASPCA as well. So some of the proceeds.   Joe: That's great. Yeah, and it's a beautiful shirt. I'm always nervous about when you can't you can't feel it first, but when I took it out, I was like, I don't know. I've been in the gym a lot lately. I might be a little a little too big for him. It's like fit perfect. It makes me actually look better than I should look. So I   Brian: Well,   Joe: Appreciate   Brian: You know,   Joe: It.   Brian: I'm super anal about t shirts as well, so I'm actually happy that he said that because I before we ever posted them, before we started selling them, we actually tested a bunch of shirts. And I wanted to make sure that they fit and they felt like I like shirts to fit. Not that that means everybody else needs to like what I like. But I've had so many other t shirts and different apparel that they just don't fit right in. You never wear it. And I'm like, if I if I'm going to buy something for my own brand or have something for somebody else, I want something that people feel comfortable in.   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: So   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: I'm   Joe: So   Brian: Happy that you feel that way.   Joe: Yeah, and besides wearing it out like normal, like this with her jeans and whatever, I definitely am going to get some more because I think it's cool and it'll be a gym shirt for me. And then I think people will come to me and go, that's cool, what is that? And then send more people your way. So that's my goal.   Brian: I'm so grateful, yeah, for the gym one, you're going to get one of those embrace pain to avoid suffering shirts. That's   Joe: There you go. That's   Brian: That's   Joe: Right,   Brian: That's that's the motto in the gym that's   Joe: That's   Brian: Going to help push you, man.   Joe: Right. All right, deal. So I always I know you've told your story a zillion times, I'm sure. And I want you to tell as much or as little as you want to bring us up to today. So however, you can kind of let the audience   Brian: All   Joe: Know. Yeah.   Brian: Hold it a million times, so I feel like I know the points I want to hit, so I'll just I'll just run with it. I'm going to ask you and anybody who's listening, unless they're driving to just close your eyes for just one second. And I want you to imagine going to a store, having a successful shopping trip, heading back out to your car. And it's a beautiful day. And you think you're just going on with the rest of your life like it was just any other normal shopping trip. And then you get to your car and you turn your head and you see a truck barreling 40 miles an hour right at you with no time to react. Go and open your eyes. That's where this portion of my story begins. My mom, my brother and I went to our local Wal-Mart to get a one inch paint brush. And anybody who's known me followed me or even in the few minutes we've been talking can probably tell. I've always had a lot of energy. It's the first one of the car and not a surprise to my mom because I want to get home and put that paint brush to use. You know, this is back in the days, though, before they had key fobs. So I had to literally wait for my mom and brother to close the gap of those four or five feet, catch up, stick the key in the door and unlock it to get on the other way.   Brian: And as it happened, the truck pulls up in front of the store and a driver, a middle passenger, get out. And the passenger all the way to the right felt the truck moving backwards. So he did what any one of us would do, Joe, and he screwed up and put his foot on the brake instead of the gas combination of shock and forced Zoom up onto the steering wheel, up onto the dashboard. And before you know it, he's catapulting across the parking lot 40 miles an hour right at us with no time to react. Now, we were in that spot, so we went up into the median, went up to the car in the median, ultimately knocked me to the ground, ran over me diagonally, tore my spleen, left the tire tracks, scar on my stomach and continued on to completely sever my left arm from my body. So there I am laying on the parking lot on one hundred and fifty three day in Phoenix, Arizona, my mom and brother just watched the whole thing happen and they look up and they see my arm 10 feet away. Fortunately for me, so did my guardian angel. She saw the whole thing take place, she was a nurse that walked out of the store right when this happened.   Brian: She saw the literal life and limb scenario in front of her and she rushed immediately into action. She focused on life. First, she came over and stopped the bleeding and she saved my life. And then she instructed some innocent bystanders to run inside, grab a cooler filled with ice and get my detached limb on ice within minutes. Had she not done one or both of those things, I either wouldn't be here with you today or I'd be here with you today with the cleaned up stop. That's just the facts, right? So I will expedite a whole lot of the rest of that particular story. We can dig deeper if you want to. But as you can imagine, there was years of recovery that came from this. Twenty four surgeries and a whole lot of lessons and observations. What I've definitely learned is that I have an extremely unique story. I'm sure that your listeners weren't expecting it to go there today. But what I've also realized is that we actually all have unique stories. And what's important is that we pause and become aware of the lessons we can extract from those stories and then become intentional. How do we apply to our lives? And we all have the ability to do that. We also all have the ability to tap into the collective wisdom of other people's stories, to shorten our own curve, to learn something to share with you two primary ones.   Brian: And then we'll just see where the conversation goes. The first is I learned not to get stuck by what has happened to me, but instead get moved by what I can do with it, and the second I didn't realize until far later. I was a kid. I was seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old when I was going through the meat of all of this. Yes, I was the one doing the the therapy. Yes, I was the one having the surgeries done to me. But I was also being guided through the process. So I was a little bit in a fog. My parents, however, were not they were intimately aware of the unceasing medical treatments, years of therapy and the idea of seeing their son grow up without the use of his left arm was a source of great potential suffering for them. So they willed themselves day in and day out to do what was necessary. It was tough to embrace the pains required to ultimately strengthen and heal me. So whether it was intentional or not, what they did was they ingrained in me a philosophy and a way of living which I embody and everything I do now, which was to embrace pain, to avoid suffering. And I believe when that's done right, that's also where we gain freedom.   Brian: So it's these concepts that I use to not only become this unique injury, but how my business partners and I scaled our last business to 15 million with the span of a decade. And now how is a human behavior performance coach and entrepreneur? I flip that on its head. You will have individuals and organizations just like you, just like the people listening, become more aware, more intentional, and who they already are, their most authentic selves. You see, I believe that's when magic starts to happen and the door starts to crack to perspective, motivation and direction. And that's when people have the opportunity to have joy, freedom and fulfillment and to back into their lives. And those are the reasons I'm spending the next twenty five years of my life committed to trying to impact a billion lives on this planet. Because if we can reduce the level of suffering that people experience, which there's a lot, and we give them the chance to experience joy, freedom and resentment, we give them the permission to be exactly who they are and know the world will embrace them and love them for exactly who they are. And we can bring vulnerability and authenticity into everything we do, which are the glue that binds human connection. Then we can come together and leave this world a lot more. Beautiful place for my kids, my grandkids.   Joe: Well, let me start here first. Do you still are you still in contact with that nurse?   Brian: You know, I am actually on a mission to find her right now. I've never spoken with her. And so part of the reason I also talk about that role in that process on so many platforms is I want there to be a lot of exposure and hopefully the world is going to help me track her down because I just want to say thank you.   Joe: Sure, that time that I've heard the story, it was like, I need to ask him that question, I'm just wondering if they're in connection with each other.   Brian: We're not I'm actively looking for her right now.   Joe: Got it during the time you were going to school. How did you handle I would assume you were treated differently, right,   Brian: Of   Joe: By   Brian: Course.   Joe: Your by your friends and teachers and they always whatever the case might be. How did you handle that?   Brian: Yes, so I think I handled it from a place to survive and protect myself, although I didn't realize that's what I was doing until far later. I didn't I didn't like being the center of attention and I didn't like. Being defined. By boundaries that were placed upon other people's view of what they'd be capable of in my scenario, and so I got this really adamant approach to I'm not going to be defined by those boundaries and I'm going to break beyond boundaries for my entire life, because why not? If I want to do something, the limitation is inside. Right. I need it. And there may be a physical limitation in some ways, but like I can always overcome the physical limitation. If I have a will and desire, that's great enough. But what happened right to protect myself is I created this intellectual narrative, which was I'm good, I'm strong, I'm capable. I don't need anybody's help. And it served me really well for a long time during that period of time, I was able to really hone my emotional intelligence because I got so good at wanting to divert attention from me that I got very strong in my ability to read people, read environments, read situations so that I could almost ensure that that attention wasn't on me. And so it honed those skill sets. And it also honed my mental toughness, which, again, I'm a huge believer is a big part of the equation to be kind of successful. That intellectual narrative ended up biting me later in life. And when I was 20 years old, I broke my arm in a snowboarding injury.   Brian: Compound fracture almost lost it again. And that was the moment that I realized the power of our narratives because the world bought into mine. I had I had sung that preached that narrative so strong. I never even said those words right. That's just the message that I was sending with my energy and how I showed up and how I interacted. And now all of a sudden, I'm in my most vulnerable period ever as an adult, not having the same infrastructure and support system that I had at home that I probably took for granted up until that point, how much support I had. Now, sitting in this vulnerable position, I didn't have the courage to ask for help. So I had a lot of friends, a lot of family. Nobody showed up and they didn't show because they didn't love me or didn't care about me. And they showed up because they just believe Brian's goody strong is capable. He doesn't need anybody else. And so that's kind of the during that whole school adolescent period. Right. It was really about me proving that I could overcome the physical limitations, that I could protect myself, that I could get myself there. But what I really downplayed the importance of was the importance of human connection. So that whole next year of my life, I shifted to vulnerability and authenticity and how do I hone the relationships that I was developing so strongly through emotional intelligence to be able to focus on a true connection.   Joe: So it sounds like your parents were super special. Did they go out of their way and whatever normal way for them to handle it, to not limit you from doing anything like when somebody knocked on your door and said, hey, can Brian come out and play and we're going to play football? Did they say, Brian, go have fun? Like, is   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That the approach they took?   Brian: You know, nobody's ever asked me that question, you just gave me chills when you asked that. I think it's a blend, honestly. They did. They never wanted to be the reason that I didn't do something. But as you would expect, all parents have a protection mechanism that kicks in. So immediately after the accident, I was I was in slings and during surgeries for a few years. And so that first year after the accident, no, I wasn't going out and playing at the level that I would have right between seven and eight. But it wasn't long after that that it was it opened up. We started having good friends in the neighborhood. We played football in the street. We played basketball on the street. We rode bikes nonstop. And so they were never going to tell me that I couldn't do those things. Now, what they didn't want me to do, they didn't want me to join a football team where we were playing tackle because for obvious reasons, I get hit really hard on that arm. Even though the doctor said the bone wasn't strong, we don't know. Right. So so they would limit it in terms of like, exactly the application. But at the same time, they got so used to me doing what I was doing that whenever the phone rang and it was somebody a number that my mom didn't know back then, she was expecting insert branded something again because I needed I think they appreciated the fact that that's who I was when I was born.   Brian: I mean, I was always the guy that was pushing the limits even before this. This gave me perspective in humility that I wouldn't have had otherwise. And so they at least were aware enough to recognize, like Brian's got a higher risk threshold and probably has an even higher one after the accident than he would have had anyway. And they they knew that they needed to give me those outlets to be able to spread my wings and be free. So they always encouraged. Right. Like, if I wanted to go mountain bike and do jumps, they'd be like, OK, you're going to get hurt. And then if I got hurt, we'd figure it out. Right? I mean, within reason, they gave me the freedom. I think they made the right decision to not let me play tackle football. Who knows what could have happened, but did I play on other sports teams? Absolutely. So, yeah, I think my parents really did encourage and they still do to this day, despite the fact that they know you know, I think my mom has just gotten used to constantly being on edge, like expecting that Brian is going to do something crazy and get hurt. That's how we find our limits in this world, is we've got to push them.   Joe: Well, tell her to not follow your Instagram account so she doesn't have to see you squatting. Four hundred pounds. I saw that. I saw the photo of you sitting there. I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't watch this. This is killing me.   Brian: Well, I mean, and that's one of those things I had to learn, right? I mean, my biggest limitation for some of those things is my hand strength. And so I have to get creative and I figure out how to do things. And when I first started deadlifting, I mean, I knew I couldn't deadlift with a normal bar because of the imbalance in my body already, but I could deadlift with a bar and protect myself for the most part. Well, that worked really well until the one time that my strap broke   Joe: Oh.   Brian: While I was lifting. And this was like early on. So I had to, like, learn these things. Well, my instinct wasn't to just let go of the bar on the other side. And I think so what you saw the other day, I wasn't 400 pounds. I think it was two hundred and   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: Forty.   Joe: I know, I just I couldn't remember,   Brian: But   Joe: But.   Brian: But I but I have I have reps significantly above 300 pounds. I don't say that to impress. I rest to the point I was doing that in this one scenario when the strap broke and I didn't let go on my right hand because it wasn't instinct, because I wasn't expecting the strap to break. And this was a learning experience because it tweaked me really bad. And I mean, I didn't deadlift for a few months after that. I had to recover. But once I started getting back into it, it changed my form. It changed my focus, it changed my attention. And now I'm like intimately aware of, like every movement on the strap. And I'm like ready at any moment to just drop so that I don't tweak my back. But my core strength is a big part of my ability to not be in debilitating pain every single day. Those deadlifts keeping my upper thoracic, keeping my shoulders, keeping my back because I don't have a lot on the left side of my back, keeping them strong is essential for me to not be literally in debilitating pain every day.   Brian: And so those are the those are the pains I have to embrace. I've got to embrace the pain of figuring out how do I lift in a way that pushes my body, gets the hip hinge in there, gets the movement, my back and my core strength and all that stuff engaged in a way that's going to allow me to maintain a livable amount of pain in my back because the imbalance versus debilitating suffering. So it's funny that you mention that. But yeah, I think my mom is just used to it. My wife is too. I mean, my wife is incredible. She literally is like I know that if you set your mind to something, you're just going to go do it. And there's a high degree. At some point you going to get hurt. She's like, but what am I going to, like, box you in and continue? Like, you're just going to go do it anyway. I was like, yeah, see, like, I love that, right? It's like just let people let people spread their wings.   Joe: That's right. Well, that's great before we get off of this subject and move on. I know that you and Blake do mountain biking,   Brian: Yeah, we do,   Joe: Right?   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: And that's like a big thing he loves to do with you and you with him. And so that's got to be at least I mean, I've done it and that's a lot on the arms.   Brian: Yes, so what's funny is I have no other perspective because I didn't learn how to mountain bike until after my injury, I didn't I didn't learn how to mountain bike when my when my son did at five and six and seven. So, yeah. It isn't in balance. Yeah, it is difficult. And I did it for almost. Let's see, I did it for probably 20 years before I actually started adapting my bike. And so there's no tricep, so Tricep and Laerte are the two muscles that you absorb, all of it, all of the impact with when you're mountain biking outside of the suspension. So I don't have a lot of tricep. So there's an automatic imbalance in my body, but I've learned how to balance it because I didn't know any other way and I was motivated and wanted to do it. Mountain biking is one of the few places that I'm absolutely free. And the reason I'm absolutely free there is I don't have the ability to think about anything else. Almost any other workout I do, almost anything I do like there's time to think. Mountain biking, you've done it right. You know, like you've got to be on your game.   Brian: One hundred percent focused on what's ahead of you. And so because of that, I've learned how to how to modify my body, my weight distribution, the way that I actually handle the handlebars. But two years ago about I started researching modifications for people with upper extremity injuries. And I landed with this company in the UK that they're actually right now building a product for me that I think is going to take my mountain biking to the next level, which is cool. But what I did is I got a steering stabilizer almost like the ones they have on their bikes. There's a company in the US called Hoby and they make these steering stabilizers for for mountain bikes. So I ended up getting that which what it essentially does is it's a spring unit which snaps the bars back to being straight. I thought it was going to help me more going downhill than uphill. What's crazy is it's actually helped my climbing more than anything because I can pick a line and put all the power I need to in the pedals and not worry about the imbalance in the handles, because it'll it'll keep my lane pure   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: And with slight, rigid and then downhill. It just gives me more confidence as well, because if I were to hit a bump and it goes on the left side, your weight goes forward, the handlebars collapse. Right. And just like twist the bars, this steering stabilizer stabilizer allows me to balance it with the muscle structure having the right arm and how I can balance my body on the left and then hope, hope he breaks is also another brand that I actually found out they just released this last year, a brake unit that has two master cylinders in one unit so you can have your front and your rear brake both on the same side. I've always never used the front brake in mountain biking   Joe: Sure,   Brian: Because my right   Joe: All that   Brian: Side   Joe: Pressure.   Brian: Is always   Joe: Yes.   Brian: What you want to be able to use primarily anyway, right? Whereas road biking, which I do a lot of the front brake is more important. Mountain biking, the rear one's more important. So I was always able to get around the corners, but I never had the confidence that I could actually stop and modulate my brakes effectively. So I would take things a little more cautiously now that I have these brakes on both sides and I can truly modulate, like just with, like little twitches in my fingers and the steering stabilizer and it's changed my mountain biking game. I can go out there and rip at a level that I've never been able to with confidence. And then there's like I said, these are these two other products that I'm really excited about. But, you know, one of the things I never knew any different, I wanted to do it and I figured it out. And I think that, again, that's one of those things that I could have just told myself, like, nope, you can't do it. You don't have tricep, you don't have a lot. But I genuinely believe if you want something badly enough and you take the time to think, plan and put things into trial and error, you start to realize you can do a lot more than what the world conditions us to believe we're capable of. Mountain biking is just another example for me on many things that I've been able to break those boundaries and expectations. I see I go mountain biking. People are like, how do you do it? I'm like, how do you do it? I mean, you could you could explain to me with a fully abled body how you do it, but I wouldn't understand because that's not my experience.   Joe: Yeah, that's crazy. So, Blake, is your son Addisons, your beautiful redheaded little daughter? With what happened to you, do you believe that certain people on this earth are have the power to get through some of these things where I just think about what you've gone through? I think about even my own brother, who, when he was young, why they were there at my parents house, they were splitting wood with one of those hydraulic splitters. That goes really slow. Right. But the   Brian: Oh,   Joe: Log   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Slipped and he had like these two fingers crushed   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: Then, you know, reconstructed but not usable in a sense. Then he lost his son at 21 years old in a car accident. And I think about this and I go, God, I. I am not I don't have the capacity to handle something like that. And I guess when it happens, it's different. Right? You figure it out. But I almost feel like certain people I don't know if they just they're born to be able to handle these things. And if this is more for the audience   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: That might hear this and go, oh, God, there's all of these things that come into people's lives that they're they're given to deal with whatever that might be. And is it just the chosen ones that can handle it? That's why they've it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's.   Brian: Yeah, so. I really appreciate the direction your questions are going. By the way, I just have to compliment you on that. You're asking a depth of questions that don't often get contemplated. And I think that there's a lot of truth behind even what you said. You know, it's interesting if you even think about what you just said when you were talking about your brother, you say, I look at him and I'm not sure that I could have handled it. And the reason I pay attention to that is because that is what I truly believe in, how the world has viewed me, they have viewed my limits through their own lens of what they believe they're capable of. I don't think that people truly know what they're capable of until they're tested. And that can be done either intentionally or externally, right? Sometimes we get tested not by our choice. Clearly getting run over by a truck was not by my choice, but it was a test. And I could show my strength to myself into the world by how I stood back up and what I've now done with it. Why I say I have a unique story is it doesn't matter the trauma that I experienced because it's unique solely to me. The trauma that your brother experienced, the trauma that other people experience with divorce or loss of a loved one or financial despair or like you name it, we all have our own unique challenges that we face. And I don't care who you are, if you're still on this planet and you're still standing. You are a survivor. None of us get through this world unscathed.   Brian: None of us. Perspective allows us to really pay attention to what other people are going through, but what perspective is really doing is allowing us the opportunity to get in someone else's world to gain perspective, to apply to our own. So it's not necessarily about what each one of us are inherently able to handle. It's that I think we're all dealt a unique set of cards and it's how we play those cards that matter. So the thing about pain, and I'm just going to speak to that, because my experience was pain, your brother's experience was pain. He had physical pain, probably emotional and spiritual pain with the loss of two fingers and a deep emotional, mental, spiritual, and probably manifested as physical pain with the loss of his son. Pain, that's what it is. Now, pain can't be measured independent of the person experiencing it. But the one thing we know is that it's a universal human experience, we all experience pain. And so what's important is not to question can I or could I have handled that? But just to say I've handled everything that's ever been thrown my way and I'm still standing here today. So what that tells me is you're probably capable of handling a lot more than you thought you were capable of at a prior period in your life. And if something were to happen that's devastating, right in that moment, you have to choose, is this going to define me and keep me stuck or am I going to use this as fuel to who I'm capable of becoming because of what I've gone through? That's why I said earlier I learned not to get stuck by what's happened to me, but I get moved by what I can do with it.   Brian: I realize I have a gift not just in my own natural abilities and gifts and intuition and emotional intelligence and all the things. But this has given me perspective that I couldn't I couldn't have gained any other way. I can put myself in other people's shoes and know what it feels like to not be seen, to know what it feels like, to feel like nobody understands me, to know what it feels like, to have people question everything I'm capable of for my entire life, even if it has nothing to do with my physical ability, even if it's one hundred percent mental, one hundred percent job and application, they view me. As not capable of doing I know what that feels like and I've had to battle that my whole life, I don't know a single person on this planet who has never felt that way. We all feel that we all experience and it's real to each one of us uniquely so I know it's probably a lot longer of an answer than you were hoping for, but the depth of the question, I think, required that approach because it's not about what you believe you could handle based on other people's circumstances. It's about what you already have handled and what you're very capable of handling if you change the way you think and feel about what you're capable of, which, again, is typically limiting in our own belief system.   Joe: So because we're doing this recording and you and I have not talked about what we could talk about or what we couldn't talk about, I want to ask this and obviously I can always edit it out. And you   Brian: Free   Joe: Know   Brian: Game, buddy, go ahead, go ahead.   Joe: What? So when does someone say, like, did you ever have these dark moments? And this is not the part of the question that I'm going to ask. This is just in front of it. And you ever have a moment that you said, why me? Like, did you ever   Brian: Absolutely.   Joe: Ok?   Brian: Absolutely, and I have those moments still today when I get when I get hit with certain things. The reason I was able to shift out of that so quickly, I remember being seven years old and that was the first thing I remember when I woke up, one feeling like it was a dream. And then I was like in this hazy state of like what this altered reality felt like, it didn't feel real. And then it was probably a day or two before I really came to and was like awake, awake, not just like in that dazed awake. At least this is from memory, I don't know the exact timeline. This is just how I feel it. And I literally remember. That question. Weiming. What is the rest of my life going to look like, like this sucks. I felt sorry for myself. I was given the opportunity to snap out of that quickly because the uniqueness of my story drew a lot of attention to it and there was a lot of families in the ICU with us who were coming up to us saying, we're so sorry for what happened to you. This is so horrible. We can't believe how hard this must be for you as a family. Let us know whatever we can do to help. Just getting wrapped with love and support from strangers to strangers saved my life. Right. That's crazy to think about. A stranger went into action and saved my life. Had she not chosen to do that, I wouldn't be here.   Brian: So I don't take that lightly, but what's happening in the ICU with these families is we start to realize that these families that are giving us just unfiltered support. Are also questioning whether or not their kid is going to survive another 30 days from the terminal illness that they're in the ICU with. Only immediate threat to my life and not at that moment knowing whether or not I'd be able to use my arm. I knew I'd be alive and over the course of the next ten years, being with those kids and all of us who wanted to rally around this cause to help more people, to bring perspective, motivation, direction to an organization that helped us so holistically in a healing process, either physically, emotionally, spiritually, whatever. Right. I lost multiple of them to their terminal illnesses over the course of the next ten years. And so although I don't think about them every day, when I'm asked questions like that, it really centers me on grounds me because I'm here happy, healthy and productive, living a life that many would dream of. And those kids didn't have the opportunity to do so. And so I have to just know and honor that it was me for a lot of reasons, I might not know all those reasons in this lifetime, I believe I know a lot of them at this point, but I still ask that question. I mean, last week was an unbelievably challenging week for me.   Joe: I saw the story and, yeah, that's part of where,   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: You know, this   Brian: I mean,   Joe: Is   Brian: Last   Joe: Going.   Brian: Week   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Was an unbelievably challenging week for me, for a variety of reasons. One was around this fabricated reality, around a date that in some ways is very significant, in other ways is not significant. But coincidentally or coincidentally, I got kicked in the stomach multiple times last week. And yet it didn't really totally faze me in a way that brought me down to the deepest, darkest moments, because every time I face those things, every time I start to ask the question, why me? It starts to reveal itself faster and faster the more I go through the pain. And and and so I now have this element of trust in surrender where the literally last week I was like, why do I always have this stuff happening? Why am I the one that has to deal with this? Literally? I mean, I said to my wife last week and then in the same breath, I'm like, I know why. And so for those that did ask that question still. I would just encourage you to recognize that there absolutely is a resum. Nothing happens by accident. You could call this my accident, but this was for a purpose, it wasn't on purpose, but it was for a purpose. And I realize that now more holistically than I have in my entire life, but it's the same thing for everybody else. I mean, I guarantee that your brother has learned from his experiences and having to adapt and do things with the loss of two fingers. He's had to learn and adapt. What does it mean to be a parent? And there's so many are out there who live on their lives without their child. Still a part of it. Parents aren't meant to outlive their kids.   Joe: Correct. What's   Brian: Right,   Joe: The what   Brian: And.   Joe: The worst car I could think of?   Brian: And by the way, there was this pending doom around this date last week that was connected to that for me, as well as from a parent's lens now. And the data is reference to a couple times I didn't I didn't say specifically on the show, but this last Saturday, March 6th, was the day that my son, who's my little clone, my little mini me, my my only boy and my oldest. Was the exact same age to the day that I was on the day of my injury. Twenty nine years separated. And. There was a lot to that most of what happened in the 10 days leading up to it had nothing to do with my son. But they were absolutely clarifying moments that needed to take place in that window. And Saturday was kind of a new start for me and a whole variety of ways, which was just unbelievably cleansing and freeing and purifying. And so even the questions last week, why me? Why does this always happen to me? Why do I have to be the one to do this? We're very clear. I know, and I think all of us do we just fight and we resist because it's not in alignment with what the world tells us. It's not in alignment with what the narrative is externally. Right. But it's not about being the victim. It's about recognizing that if we have ownership and accountability with everything we do, we recognize that there's always a reason, there's always a cause, and there's always a way through it if we desire it enough. That's when we start to become free.   Joe: Ok, so here's the the part where I want to talk about Blake and Addison really quickly, I don't want to stay because, you know, I know you're super productive, positive guy. And I don't want this episode to be like the Debbie Downer episode. But you went through a lot in your life up to this   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Point. Right.   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: And   Brian: A lot.   Joe: Then, Blake, I remember you talking about this, so I'm only bringing this up because I think you've talked about   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: It and.   Brian: I've shared publicly on stuff, I'm sure I know where you're going,   Joe: Yeah,   Brian: But go ahead.   Joe: So so you said it is is on the spectrum, right, and so you there's an extra amount of attention that has to happen   Brian: Of course,   Joe: There. Right.   Brian: Of course.   Joe: So then you deal with that another moment where you said, why me? Like, I haven't I haven't. I gone through enough. Why me? Right. And then now you have yet a third time now with with Adderson with her here. Right. And I could be another time we go. What is it going to stop. Like why me. Right. I'm sure there's people out there that do not handle this anywhere near as well as you do. And I'm hoping your words of wisdom, if they run across this episode, that it will help them understand how you I mean, you can look at their beautiful faces and go, oh, it doesn't matter. You know, they're amazing. It just it's a it's a small little blip on the radar. But it's still some people can't even handle the bullet. So   Brian: They   Joe: That's,   Brian: Can't.   Joe: You   Brian: They   Joe: Know.   Brian: Can't. And by the way, there's a lot more depth and truth to that statement than than you probably even realized, I mean, to the point that when we found out about our daughter's hearing loss. The audiologist actually said to us she does have loss and she could benefit from hearing devices. And I paused and I said. She could benefit, like are you saying she needs hearing aids, like is her hearing profound enough that it's not like she would benefit? She she needs it to restore it to what we would expect are going to be? And she said, yeah. I said, why didn't you just say that? And she said, because most parents don't want to hear it. And she said that even when they do want to hear it, she said, because of the reports that we get when we plug in hearing aids, even if they go through the process of getting hearing aids, even if they go through the process of doing these things, she said. Most kids, the hearing aids live in a drawer. Because of some reason, right, that either the parents don't think it's important they're embarrassed by their kid or whatever, like there's a whole slew of things. You're exactly right. And in both those moments, by the way, when we found out about our son's diagnosis on the autism spectrum and we found out about our daughter.   Brian: It was it was challenging, right? It was absolutely challenging for both my wife and I and we both we both grieved in different ways. And why I choose the word grieve is any time we have a vision for our lives. And that reality that we've created gets stolen from us, we experience loss. We literally go through the grieving process, the multiple steps of grieving, sometimes it's anger that manifest first, sometimes it's just like absolute depression. But but recognize it for what it is like having something happen to your kid and realizing that they might have an altered future from what you always desired and hoped for them. You have to process that, but then once you process that and you start to realize like this doesn't define the kid, just like a mine accident didn't define me right. What this really does is it's a gift because what getting both of their diagnosis is as early as we did, what allows us to do is wrap them with services, wrap them with all the support they need to close the gap between whatever their diagnosis limits them from doing to what a typical kid might be capable of doing. It shortens that gap early in those foundational early development years so that it won't really ever hurt them.   Brian: Plus, the more that we talk about it not as an ailment, but just a part of who they are, right. It's no longer a label. It becomes a term of empowerment because they recognize that like they have superpowers as a result of what their diagnoses are. So the answer is yes. There's there was absolute grieving for both my wife and I, for both children. We're well beyond that at this point. But it hung with us for a while. And and there are still moments where the difficulty and complexity of our household that most people will never understand and ours is light compared to what some other people's situations are. Right. So we keep that in perspective, too. Is it harder than most parents and most households might have to be? We believe so, but it's not about like we have got it more difficult than what they have. It's just this is the cards were dealt, so we're going to play them as best we can for both of our kids. We know how lucky they are to have us. My wife is brilliant. My wife is brilliant and what she has done to allow our kids to feel authentically who they are in safe, despite all of these things, despite the fact that they know they're different in certain ways and honoring and cherishing, encouraging them to just make do the things that make their hearts happy and stand up for what is right and know that they're worthy of receiving love like exponentially.   Brian: And all these things, like my wife and I were partners, but our kids are lucky to have us at the counter to that is we also feel extremely privileged to have our kids because they have challenged me to go to depths of myself, my soul, my emotions that allow me to be more effective in the world. That had I not recognized those scenarios for what they were, which is we can handle them and let's figure out the plan forward. It probably would have made me feel stuck longer than it did. And so for those parents that are listening out there that might have kids like this or even if there's not a diagnosis, but you just have a challenging time or there's an injury or there's something like, again, nothing happens by accident. And so the only way through it is through it, and if you if you desire something on the other side, then you've got to go through and that's really what it comes down to.   Joe: Really powerful and I appreciate you sharing leading up to this interview, I wanted to talk about those things and I was just like, I know he's talked about it, but I I didn't know how to actually go after it and   Brian: You did it beautifully, my friend, it was   Joe: Think   Brian: Great.   Joe: I'm grateful that you shared. And so, OK, so now you and I know this is a big jump, but I just want to I know we   Brian: Yeah,   Joe: Have limited   Brian: No, let's go. We got it, yeah.   Joe: We have limited time and I don't and I want to get to where you are today. So then you get into the insurance business. Correct. So you're in that for you grew a company. I think it was from like.   Brian: Quarter million to 15 million over the span of a decade.   Joe: You just picked that that was just a career that you pick at one point and.   Brian: Yeah, you know what's funny, I saw depicted it sort of picked me up, I was my junior year in college, was deciding that I needed to go get an internship. And so I started looking at a whole bunch different places. And I actually ended up getting into insurance because my one of my childhood friends and my childhood girlfriend, in fact, that we grew up together. And a lot of ways I always had her parents were like second parents to me for a lot of years. And I always had a great lot of respect. But I always viewed her dad as this very successful man. But I knew nothing about what he did. And I reached out to him as a mentor, frankly, and just said, hey, I'm going out. I'm doing these interviews and I have these things. And I talked to my own parents and they're successful. They've done these things as well. But I wanted extra perspectives. And he ultimately was like, I'm going to pass on your resume to so-and-so. And if you don't get a call in three days, call me. I was like, OK, not a clue what it was. It was the only one that was in insurance. Right. Very, very amazing opportunity. And it just took off from there. And nobody grows up wanting to be an insurance, right? I mean, and if they do and if you're listening to this, I apologize if you always had a desire to be an insurance. I know there's some people who love it. I never loved it. It was a great vehicle for me. And it was a great testing ground for me to grow and develop who I was as a professional, who I was as a man. I kind of grew up in it, but yeah, no, I didn't seek out insurance. I kind of fell into it and it just it fit.   Joe: Right. So while you were there with your inner voice saying there's more out there for me, I want to do more, whatever it might be. I mean, how did you make the jump then when you left   Brian: Yeah.   Joe: There to now what you're doing, which is the coaching and the speaking and and the podcast. And I mean, I, I look at your website and I get tired just looking at all the all the different menus that I could take a look at stuff. And then I went into the podcast when I was like, wait, is he doing actually three podcasts? Like, how is he doing all this? So how did you decide how did you decide you were going to leave insurance and then pursue the Brian Bogot we know today?   Brian: Yes, so I'm going to start with the first question you asked, which was, did I always know? I knew for a long time I've always had this gut feeling that like there was something meaningful that I was meant to do. No idea what that meant. OK. And then I conditioned that out of myself, and when I first got out of college, it was like bright eyed and bushy tailed, I was going to go take over the world and make a ton of money. Right. I'm going I'm literally going to be running the company. I'm going to climb the corporate ladder. I mean, it was all external. And, you know, this is one of the things I talk about now is I chased the what like so many of us did. Right? I chased what house, what car, what amount of money, what amount of success, what image do I want to portray? What, what, what, what, what. And I lost the who along the way. And I woke up one day after having accomplished all the words that I ever desired, way earlier than I thought I would have, in a way bigger level than I ever thought I would. And I realized, like, what have I been doing all this for? The more money I made, the less I cared about money, the more I got into a successful career, the more I was like, why am I doing to myself? And then I'm running in circles with people making six, seven, eight figures who all were having high of success and they were all miserable to.   Brian: And so those were the turning turning point moments over the probably the last seven to eight years, maybe six, seven years, if I'm being real honest, because when I first started coaching, it was because I had my son and I always said that I'm going to do everything for the benefit of my family always. And I did. But then six months went by when my son like that and I realized I missed all of it except the first week because I was burning the candle at both ends, I was still living the life that I was to create this abundant amount of external success and validation that I needed to prove to myself I could do it and I never recalibrated my life. So part of providing everything for my family is with finances and security and opportunity and safety and all those things. But but but it's also love and leadership and presence and connection. And I don't want to be that guy that did everything for his family, then woke up twenty five years later and never had a relationship with any of them.   Brian: They decided that I didn't serve a role for them outside of money. It's not all about money. It never was all about money. And so it was the first in my life. I didn't have the people in my life, the mentors, the experience or the intellect myself to figure out how to fix it. So I hired my first coach. And he said to me, a month of working together, because you're going to be doing this, like, what are you talking about? He said you need to be coaching and speaking. So you've been on stages since you were seven because you've got a unique ability or a unique story and you have an ability that you're not afraid in front of groups. And he's like, you're all about building people and building businesses. Like you're always helping. You're always finding ways to level people up. You're always helping them connect dots. And I was like, yeah, whatever. I was like, I'm paying you a lot of money. Not that's how great I have to figure out this stuff. And I completely threw it out the window. And then it just kept trickling. It kept trickling in every single month for about nine months.   Brian: And then this crazy experience happened, which again, nothing happens by accident. But the universe gave me the sign that I needed, which was he told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. And that's when I started to desire a little bit more and started to feel like maybe I wasn't in alignment. But I had to ask the question if I'm going to jump in being in coaching, is this complementary or conflicting to everything else I had because I was so significantly invested mentally, physically, emotionally and spiritually and monetarily. Right. In this other business that we built, that was the fruits of its labor were just starting to pay off. And it's like, let's let's make sure that we forge ahead on what we're doing here. So I started coaching and speaking and I did it alongside for about five years and then summer of twenty nineteen comes around. And again, I told you, I'm running in circles with people that are miserable. And I realized my relationship with my clients started shifting to more coaching relationships. We were placing multi million, hundreds of millions, tens of millions of dollars of insurance for people. And my conversations had nothing to do with insurance with the people that I was actually interacting   Joe: Right.   Brian: With at the C Suite.   Joe: Yeah.   Brian: Right. I was coaching them on how to be better people, how to be better leaders, how to change the culture of their business, think through and problem solve on things that really had nothing to do with insurance. But the insurance was how we were in the door. And so the more that started to migrate, we have this connection moment summer twenty nineteen with my wife and I. We go away for a weekend and it was one of those that like mentally, spiritually, physically and emotionally, like brother, like our souls were bonded like we were one and we're driving back to pick up our kids and she looks, everybody goes, how would you feel if you did have to go to the office on Monday morning? And I was like, that's a pretty loaded question.   Joe: No.   Brian: Why don't you tell me more? Well, I had some other I had some other health stuff that impacted me pretty significantly a few years back. I'm good now. It's all all squared away. But she said, I think you let some of this stuff allow fear to enter into your world in a way I've never seen you operate. She said, I feel like you've convinced yourself that we need the money, the status, the prestige, the security, the all of the above, what's been built. She said, I'm here to tell you we don't I don't care if we live in a cardboard box. What we need is one hundred percent of you. And she said, I don't know if you see it or not, but I see you dying a little bit inside every single day. You live in insurance. And and so she said, I think you're barely scraping the surface of your potential, nor do I think you have any impact on the world that you want. And then she said, you know, there's nobody on this planet I'd rather take a bet on than you. We took a big bet on you once and it paid off. Why don't we double down on that bet and see what you can do? And so, you know, this was one of those moments where I was flooded with fear, flooded with a whole bunch of emotions. And I had to spend three months really unpacking it with complete awareness, complete intentionality, understanding where my blocks were and ultimately came to the decision that I needed to embrace the pain of walking away from the easy button, from the sure thing, to avoid the suffering of not ever knowing what I could become or what I'd be capable of doing from an impact perspective.   Brian: So you fast forward to today and you know, I spent 10 months unpacking that business left at the time, the best year ever in that industry, the year I left and was simultaneously building the foundation for where we could go. And, you know, I'm not sure if I said it or not yet on this show. I think I did. Yeah, but but that's that's now where I'm so clear and convicted on this billion lives. I genuinely believe, like we've got an opportunity to to change the world and make people feel at a level that they've never felt and feel free. And so I know what that miserable, dark place looks like. I've spent a lot of my life in moments like that. No one deserves to feel that way, but a lot of people do. And right now, I feel more free, more fulfilled, happier and more like myself than I have in my entire life. Everybody deserves to feel how I'm feeling right now. And so when I started to get the curiosity, I didn't even lean into it. My wife pushed me. And she, along with my other coach, told me what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear, and it's not lost on me, the courage it took in my wife to take that leap of faith with me and give me the push knowing it could upset her entire lifestyle. And so that's what I had to honor because my kids are watching, I don't want my kids to see me do what I want my kids to see me do what's right.   Joe: Incredible. I love it, so your podcast, what are there, is there are there three, is that   Brian: You   Joe: Right   Brian: Know what, I actually   Joe: Or.   Brian: Don't even have my own yet,   Joe: Ok.   Brian: I I'm in the process of developing a few. What you've probably seen as I have Bogarts Bullets, which is a regular consistent thing, but and it's going to be repurposed into a podcast. But right now it's just on YouTube and it goes on all my social channels. We have a marriage hack's string that we've started that my wife and I, we've now done we've only done one episode, but we repurpose it into three. And then my content team and strategist's decided that there are a whole lot of thought leaders, influencers, speakers in the world that create intellectual content similar to what I have for years, Bogarts, bullets putting things out, podcasts, other pieces of content to get distributed. And then there's bloggers that are much more niche, but there's nobody that's doing both. And so he's like. If you talk about how you live, you talk about these philosophies, you talk about these guiding principles, these lessons, these things that you do. Why don't we pull the curtain back and show people behind the scenes that that's actually how you operate. And so those are the three things that you've probably found is bogus bullets, the marriage tax and then the No Limits blog. And all three of those, although they're not currently set up as podcasts, one of them will be repurposed that way. And then I'm actually in the process right now. I'll be a co-host on at least two podcasts. We're going to be launching here soon, likely three if this other concept takes off. The podcasting world has kind of changed my world in a lot of ways, in a way I never saw coming. And I've been on over one hundred and fifty other people shows in the last seven, eight months, and it's allowed me to have opportunities to meet people like you. Right. And the connection with Ken Joslyn and Steve Sams. Right. Which both were people that I was on their platforms, on their shows. Like it's allowed me to align myself with incredible individuals on this planet so that we can truly have collective impact. So those are the three shows that currently exist. But they're not podcast currently.   Joe: Got it. OK, so you have things coming up, I know that you're doing the Ken Joslin's   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Boot camp, right?   Brian: Yep, yep, I'm doing his boot camp in April, I've done two of his I've got some other speaking events coming up. And then we've also got a few things launching that I'm really excited about. So we're still doing all of our work with no limits university, which is really like the concepts and the philosophies to help people understand who they are, leading them on intrinsic journey. But we also have another entity in a movement that's called Who before what that's launching as we speak, which is really an attempt to help us change the language and narrative in society about putting more emphasis on what we do versus who we are. And it's not that one or both don't matter. It's that they both matter. But one needs to lead, which is who. And so we're going to change the narrative because it's this whole idea that you go to a networking event. And the first question everybody asks is, what do you do? And even if you asked who you are, like, tell me who you are. Ninety eight percent of people answer with what they do, not who they are.   Joe: So   Brian: Part of the   Joe: True.   Brian: Pain and suffering that exists on this planet, as so many people don't know who they are. And so a lot of the core of the work with everything we do with our coaching and the No Limits university and those things are all about that. But we're actually creating a specific movement to bring into conscious awareness this idea of who needs to be before what.   Joe: I love that is the university and the who before. What are they separate from your actual coaching piece   Brian: They're   Joe: That you   Brian: All   Joe: Do   Brian: There, it's all kind of integrated,   Joe: Ok?   Brian: So, yeah, my my I would say my one to one coaching is the only thing that's kind of outside of that umbrella. It all fits on the same coaching philosophies. But just with the people I work with one to one, it's it's just inherently different than the other structure that we have. But it's the same philosophies, what you'll know about me and a lot of what we do with the no limits you and everything is this idea that we truly have the ability, if we are aware enough and influential enough to build a life of alignment that can become self-regulating. So for me, I'm very clear on who I am. I'm very clear on where I'm headed. I'm very clear on the impact I want to have, as well as the hierarchy of importance in my life. Family being first. Right. After that, because I'm so clear, everything I do is in alignment with where I'm headed. So when you ask the question, are they all, yeah, they're integrated because they're all holistically apart and in alignment of where we're going to impact a billion lives. How those are translated look a little bit different. But they are all towards the same intent, which is to impact a billion lives.   Joe: So it's the YouTube channel, it's eventually some podcasts on their way. It's but no limits university. There's the Who before what portion of that? There's the coaching, which is one on one with you. Correct. Speaking engagements. When when? I mean, obviously, you still do it virtually, but you're actually going to be live at that bootcamp coming   Brian: Yep,   Joe: Up in   Brian: Yep.   Joe: April. So as that opens up again, I mean, when I watched you on the Growth Now summit, which I attended, your portion of, it was brilliant. I   Brian: Oh,   Joe: You   Brian: Thank   Joe: Know, I   Brian: You.   Joe: Just said, I mean, you're an amazing speaker.   Brian: Thank you.   Joe: You're just not talking to us. But you bring people in to the story.   Brian: Thank   Joe: And   Brian: You.   Joe: I just   Brian: Thank   Joe: Sat   Brian: You.   Joe: There and I was like, oh, this is unbelievable. Like, I would have paid thousands of dollars to   Brian: Thank   Joe: Watch.   Brian: You.   Joe: So it   Brian: Thank   Joe: Was amazing.   Brian: You.   Joe: Did I miss somewhere on your website? Because it's just so much on there. I can't figure out.   Brian: No,   Joe: But   Brian: You   Joe: Is   Brian: Didn't miss you didn't   Joe: It.   Brian: Miss anything. There's going to be new sections actually built on the website, Zoom. Let's put it this way. You listed a lo

My conversation with Brad R Lambert was a complete joy. To see someone so successful living in a town where egos can definitely get in the way of being human, Brad is a shining star. We had a real life conversation involving real life circumstances and in the end, empathy, love, comparison and the want to help others, trumps all. Success has not ruined this young man and he is an example of what is very right with the world and how he plans to love his life and leave his legacy. Enjoy, Joe Brad R Lambert: Producer, Talent Manager, International Speaker & Author Website: https://www.bradrlambert.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bradrlambert/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thebradrlambert LinkedIn: https:https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradrlambert YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/BradRLambert/ Email: brad@bradrlambert.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Brad, thanks so much for joining me on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm so looking forward to this conversation with you, Matt. Brad: It's great to be here, thanks for having. Joe: So I want to start I always like to get the back story, because I really think it helps people know the person and become more familiar with where you came from and where you are today. And so if you don't mind doing that, that would be awesome. Brad: Oh, of course, I am from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, so I'm actually from the East Coast, was born and raised in the Steel City, spent some time in North Carolina as well in Charlotte. I went to college at NC State, but I started really working, working when I was like 16, 17, 18 years old. You know, I had the traditional jobs of, you know, working at a sandwich shop or a movie theater. Like I worked at a movie theater all through high school and college for side income. And that's why I really fell in love with movies. So we'll get to that. But working working wise, I really found my entrepreneurial self at that age. I was very passionate about sports, so I wanted to be a part of the sports industry in any way, shape or form. Specifically, I wanted to work directly with my athletes, the guys that I cheered on Sundays and Mondays, now Thursdays, you know. So I wanted to provide whatever value I could for those guys. So I was able to get connected to a few of the Pittsburgh Steelers. And at that age, I was, like I said, still in high school so that the age gap between me and a lot of these athletes was pretty significant. So the disconnect was there, but I had to prove myself and build that trust and credibility through my actions. So I learned very quickly how to connect with high level people at a young age, and that was by building genuine relationships and adding whatever value I could to benefit them both personally and professionally. So, you know, simple things like, you know, later on down the road, it would be like, hey, man, I'm in Arizona training. Can you swing by my house and move my car for me? Yeah, dude, I'm around whatever Joe: Right. Brad: You need, you know, or, hey, help me with this massive campaign endorsement deal, whatever. So I had a range of things that I did for these guys. But at the start of it, it was at the the initial beginnings of Facebook and social media. So these guys didn't understand how to utilize social media to benefit themselves. And I had been playing around with it for a while. So I saw the opportunity. So I was able to then bring that knowledge and expertise to the table to help establish these guys on social media, help with content creation strategy, etc.. So through high school, I worked with these athletes and some agencies just do my own thing. Then all through college, I actually worked with a marketing agency while I was at NC State. So I was basically full time with the agency and doing school at the same time. So it was such a great experience because I had, you know, got in at the right time with this agency, proved myself and that I was going to New York City almost twice a month, sitting down with Fortune 500 brands in these, you know, Penthouse suites in New York City. And it was my job to sit there and be quiet, that that's what I was told. And that at the time made a lot of sense. So I would just sit there and soak up the room, all the knowledge, all the exchanges, everything. And a funny nickname I had was these guys were just so used to me sitting there very stoically and just listening. Now they're like, who's this silent assassin? Like, who is this? You know? But I was just following directions, you know. But now, obviously. Joe: And what what year was this? Sorry to interrupt, I just want Brad: No, Joe: To get the timeline. Brad: Not a problem, I mean, freshman sophomore year of college, I was working with this agency, maybe even through junior year, I'm not sure, Joe: Like Brad: But I was young. Joe: What year, what year, like. Brad: Oh, I. She's 20, 21. Joe: That's how old you are. Brad: Yeah, so I was 2009, 2010, maybe, so I was I was young and it was started college for me, so I was, you know, doing school work and then doing work, work and then traveling and doing both. And it was just such a great experience for me because it got me ahead. It put my feet to the fire and challenged me at early age, which I love. Like I'm fearless in that regard. I'll try anything. I'm not afraid to fail. At worst case, I learn one. I'm not good at it, or I learned how to do it a different way. So, you know, I'm not really caught up in those elements of what if I fail or, you know, I'm like, screw it. I'm just going to try. And if I fail, so be it. I'll learn and move on, you know, and be better because of it. So, you know, with that experience, man, like, fast forward to, you know, after school and I moved back to Pittsburgh to work with a sports agency. And then eight months later, I was out in L.A. working with Robert Downey Jr. and his team. So those elements of that experience from high school to college, where I was working with high level celebrities and professionals and entrepreneurs and things like that, it didn't bother me. Brad: So, you know, being in the same room with professional athletes or celebrities or talent like Robert Downey Junior, it doesn't bother me like they're just like us. They're just normal people. They just have high profile jobs and lives in general. So I'm able to build that trust and that credibility because, one, I'm not a fan girling, you know, in front of these guys and to it's it's all business. I want to have a genuine relationship with these people. So it's not about, you know, hey, what can you do for me? It's about what I can do for you. And my scale of giving and receiving is so far skewed and giving. And I'm not complaining. I'm just stating a fact. That's how I live my life. And I'm so happy because of it. The relationships I have are just mind blowing. I mean, just from status and success and, you know, credible people as well, as well as just good people. At the end of the day, that's all that really matters to me, is like you could be the most famous successful person in the world. But if you're not nice or kind to other people, I don't really care to associate with you. And I've had to cut off some big fish, but I don't care. Brad: Like, I really don't want to surround myself with that negativity, that ego or that hate. So my circle is very specific about who I associate with and who I call a friend and family and so on and so forth. So. You know, I moved out to L.A. and got my feet wet in the entertainment industry and going back to what I said earlier about working on a movie theater, I was the guy rep and tickets and cleaning up popcorn and stuff in high school. And I fell in love with that, just going to the movies. And, boy, I can't wait to go back when it's safe to do so. But, you know, that's where I fell in love with all the different genre of film, because before I worked at the movies, I was like, oh, just action, you know? But then that opened up my palate, rom coms and dramas and the horrors and literally everything, thrillers like thrillers. So now I have an appreciation for all different genres of film and that whole process. So coming out to Los Angeles, I wanted to pursue film, TV and entertainment as a whole. I never wanted to be the the actor, you know, BSR. That was not my my goal. I always wanted to be involved at whatever capacity. Brad: So I brought my marketing, my business background out here and that's what got my start. And I really started to find myself out here. After working with Downey, I went to Warner Brothers and I was managing the marketing campaigns for TV, film and catalog titles. So that experience really helped me find the producer in me because I was given task with large budgets. I had to collaborate with different agencies and teams and then flex my creative and business muscles to get stuff done. And that was me managing those very high level campaigns for Warner Brothers. So for me, that was like as a producer, you have to have a good balance of business and creative. And that that was me and I really was like, wow, I can do this. So I actually went on to executive produce my first film, which was a horror film I helped raise. I think it was between three to five million dollars, which I'd never done before. So that was just I was grateful to be a part of that project. And just once again, someone threw me an opportunity instead of being afraid of failing or oh, I don't know how to do this. I was like, give me a few days and let me see what I can muster up. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. Brad: I'll figure it out. And I ended up making a bunch of calls and connecting dots, and we were filming a few months later. So it was just to be a small part of that project and kind of have that experience now moving forward with the other stuff that I'm doing from music videos to commercials to I have a full slate of films right now that I'm working on getting funding for because they're all independent. I'm taking calls with voices and, you know, investors and things of that nature. So once again, that early experience. Pays dividends, you know, so waiting for the perfect time to to try things is not always the best route to take. You know, if you can start early while your competition is not, I think you'll really get an edge for yourself. And I am by no means you know, where I want to be yet. But the progress I've been able to make, and I'm only thirty two. So I'm I'm I feel the momentum. I feel myself coming together and who I am and what I'm about and the people I surround myself with and I'm just grateful for. And they inspire me and they need to be better each and every day. And I couldn't ask for anything more. Joe: That's incredible. So you're going to have to forgive me, because I know the part about this that means a lot to me is helping to educate the audience on how you become the type of person that you are that a lot of people want to be where they have to put one foot in front of the other and actually go through the stuff and not overthink it, not over planet. So I'm going to pull you all the way back to high school because I know what I was like in high school and I just I played soccer. I was interested in girls. I, you know, whatever. I never had the focus that it sounded like you had. So my first question is, did this come from your parents? Was there something that they instilled in you to say, hey, Brad, you can go out and do anything you want, just go and you just going to ask, how Brad: Yeah, Joe: Did that happen for you? Brad: Well, it's funny to ask that is so spot on, you'll laugh, but my mom always said if you don't ask, you don't get. And that has stuck with me from day one. She she's always been my biggest supporter. I love her to death. Obviously, you were a part of the Growth Now summit, but she was there. So Joe: Yeah, that's right, it's. Brad: In one of my she's my biggest supporter and I love her to death. So she's inspired me in so many ways. And, you know, so, yeah, she definitely pushed me. But I would say, you know, I was wired differently, you know, just in a sense of I was a dreamer man. Like, I, I always swung for the fence, whether it was asking out the the hottest girl or, you know, trying to get the biggest opportunity or whatever, you know, I didn't care. I was like, you know, my standards for what I wanted. You know, I didn't want to talk down to myself or limit myself of, oh, I could never accomplish that. Like, what kind of mindset is that? You know, I would say if you're not challenging yourself, you're never going to know what you're truly capable of. And each and every day I'm constantly stepping into something that I never thought was possible. Like I just got approached with an opportunity that wasn't even on my radar, not even remotely maybe down the line, but it was thrown in my face three weeks ago. And I've had to be scrappy and jump on the opportunity. But I wasn't planning on it. But I also was not going to be like, I'm not ready for this or now talk to somebody else. I'm like, I'm going to give it my all and it's either going to happen or it's not, you know, and that's how I look at things. So, you know, I'm fairly confident in that. And that project I was just mentioning, it's come along nicely. But what's cool about that project? I'm not going to dive into details, but I was approached for me. Brad: Get this done, but instead of looking at it like me, me, me, lalala, I was like, you know what, I'm going to bring in some heavy hitters and we are going to win together because including then we'll take away some stuff for me, but everyone will benefit and the project will be that much better because of it. And I want I want that to be very clear, I could have done this by myself as I. I could have done a good job, but it wouldn't be what it is right now if I didn't include these other heavy hitters, so it's having that selflessness to step aside, right. And say, you know what, this is what it is, I'm going to I'm going to bring in people I care about, people who I have a lot of respect for, who are so talented in their own right that are going to really complement what we're doing or what we're trying to do. And man, the the the masterpiece that we've kind of put together for this project, I'm so excited about it. But once again, I could have taken the ego approach to made it all about me. And I was like, no, I'm going to bring in the squad and we're all going to benefit and when because of it. So it's just that kind of approach where it's like, you know. Am I trying to just get it done or am I trying to go overboard and do the best job possible? And a lot of people want one hundred percent of the credit, whereas not many people are OK with 12 percent. Joe: Something great, as opposed to one hundred percent or something semi, you Brad: That's Joe: Know, Brad: Nothing Joe: I mean, right, Brad: Once one hundred percent of nothing. Joe: Right. Brad: I mean, that's that's the reality of it. So a lot of people only want to think of themselves or they want all the limelight and they want all the shine and credit. And it's like, look, at the end of the day, nobody gets anywhere by themselves. And people who say otherwise are either insane or they're egomaniacs to the point where it's like there's no talking to them. They just they are who they are. So for me, it's like I never want to be put in that category. I think ego is one of the biggest turnoffs up in general and to it's one of the biggest inhibitors to success, growth, relationships, period. And being in Hollywood, I'm sure you can imagine the egos that exist here. And it's funny from people who have no right to have egos here have egos. So it is it's fascinating to me where, you know, I'm from Pittsburgh. It's a blue collar town. It's a hardworking town. It's a good town. The people are kind. They're giving, they're generous. And, you know, so coming out here, I was very much an alien in a way because I didn't subscribe to the norms of L.A. and the behavior and the competition and the wild, wild West nonsense. And, you know, I didn't get along with people who who played that game because I'm not going to play that game. I'm not going to cut somebody's legs off to to win. That's just not who I am. So that's what allowed me to kind of separate myself and find myself and find my lane. Brad: And, you know, there are consequences to your actions and how you treat people. And in this business, they always come back around the person you screw over. Now, I guarantee you you'll see them in five years. That's just how the business is. Unless you leave the business because it's not for you and you fail, you're going to see him again. So you need to treat everyone with respect and kindness. You may not like them, but that's not a requirement, right? Like there are a lot of people I don't like in this business, but I still will treat them with respect and kindness. I don't have to like them. You know, I wouldn't have to be friends. We can be acquaintances, professional. Relationship, but aside from that, like we're not going to be grabbing a beer, watching football, like that's just, you know, that's not. But everybody, once again, they're still like this with so many aspects of their life, just like this, where you need to widen. That view and why, in your mind and your horizon to the possibilities of not just what you're capable of, but looking at situations differently, like I try to plan five to 10 moves ahead if I do or say this, this, this and this is going to happen, you know? So it's it's it's mental chess in a way of understanding how, you know, things move, how things operate, how people move and how people operate and everybody's different. Brad: But if you can understand, you know, interpersonal communication and kind of get a good read on somebody, you can understand the ebb and flow of conversation and their actions. People are very stuck to patterns. They behave a certain way and they rarely change. So if you can identify that pattern and how they move and how they speak and things like that, you're able to kind of ride the wave in a way of like, this is how this person is. I got to kind of change chameleon wise to to be able to deal with it and make it successful because we can't just stay the same core values. Yes, stay the same. But in regards to, like, how you communicate with certain people, some people, you got to have the most amount of patience in the history of time. Other people, it's like it's so chill, like it's a chill work environment. Whatever other people you have to really kind of be on them to to make sure they're getting whatever tasks done. And so everybody's different. But you have to you can't just stay the same person with everybody. You have to understand that each each everybody's different and you have to kind of change to best suit that like a puzzle piece, because if you don't. That's where the issues happen. You know, you're not the way I want you to be, Joe. So we're going to have problems Joe: Ok. Brad: Like that. That's not how it works. But put a lot of leaders are like that where it's like you don't fit what I want. You're out of here. You're not a brainwashed zombie. You're out of here. And trust me, I've had so many experiences like that where it's like if you have an opinion, if you're your own person and it's the way the business is, it's the wild, wild West. And I will say this, those people make it far very quickly, but long term, you know, fall on their face. Joe: So and that's what attracted me to you in that that Growth Now summit. I heard you talk and then I started looking at all that you've accomplished at the ripe old age of 30 to Brad: Thank Joe: Like Brad: You. Joe: I was like this. He is the most humble person that I've seen with the accolades that you have. And I just was like, got to have to talk to this guy because I just turned fifty nine. And there's many things I want to do with my life. I didn't do all of the things the way. I mean, I don't like I don't want to say regret, but I definitely feel like I have some regret because I just didn't if I don't know, I've always had really high goals. Did I work as hard as I should have on all those things? Probably not. So I take all of the blame. But I just think that I want to surround myself with people that even now, like, I could just say, well, you know, it didn't work out. I'm just going to just going to do it constantly. I think a big motivator for me with this podcast when I started it almost a year ago was I want to be around people that are successful, people that through me and these conversations can spread the word of what they did to make things like this happen. And so, yeah, you you definitely had to be wired different. The fact that a in high school, you were doing all that you were doing and then again in college, college is like, wow, I'm finally out of the house and I'm just going to I'm going to do as little work as I can and I'm going to have a great time. Brad: Look, Joe: It's just Brad: I Joe: It's. Brad: Don't think I went to one party in college, I'm Joe: I Brad: Not Joe: Know Brad: Getting. Joe: It doesn't surprise me. It sounds Brad: I Joe: Like. Brad: Just I had no interest like the the one to one exchanges and the nonsense now I had fun in my own way, but like I just that college, like it just didn't it didn't appeal to me. But I was also so busy on the other things that I was trying to do. And I saw the potential and the benefits of the things that I was doing. I actually stepped away from school for a year because that marketing agency opportunity was thriving so much. Where I'm in these boardrooms at Fortune 500 companies, I'm like, why am I still in school? You know, like and so I took a year off and I went all in on this marketing agency and the experience I got out was crazy. And I ended up finishing school online. But it was like that's the kind of real world experience that, you know, I had a conversation with the young lady the other day in Canada. And she's like, how do I how do I get to where you are? And I was like, what are you doing right now? You took the time and the effort to to follow up with me on LinkedIn. And we finally found a time to talk. And I'm giving you 15, 20 minutes to talk. And however I can help you, I'm going to do it. And she was just very laser focused, right, on what she wanted to get out of this conversation. And I was like, your hustle, your focus. Like, that's going to get you really far. Brad: And now you just have to act on it. You can't worry like it's like sales. You're going to knock on two hundred doors and you might get one or two answers. But the second you're about to quit that next door might be the one that changes your whole life. So that's why it's like you just got to keep going. You've got to ignore like there are things where I have an opportunity, biggest opportunity ever and I'll just like I'll do what I need to do. But then I move on. Like, I'm not waiting or dwelling, I'm just like next, you know, that's not something that I, you know, I don't want to waste time because it's out of my hands. Once I do what I need to do, I hand it off and then what will be will be right. So I'm not going to sit here and and be kind of bent out of shape of, oh, my gosh, I haven't got one. Yes. Like I've got so knows I've lost count. But that is what we need to do. Like we have to persist, we have to keep going. And that's something that a lot of people aren't like. Some people can't handle failure and I get it. But at the same time, like you're capable of more than you think, you just have to rewire how you look at things. Once again, it's not you're a loser, Joe. You failed. It's that opportunity wasn't meant for you. And what did you learn out of it? Well, that changes the whole game like that, I don't feel like a loser, right, because I did it when, you know, when I win, I learn. Brad: When I lose, I learn. But I don't look at it is like, wow, I failed, you know, just like look. And if anything, it's another chip on my shoulder, right. Somebody passed on me. The opportunity didn't work out, whatever. But like a great example is what's right behind me right here. This this poster of Avenger's, a game that's signed by the entire cast. OK, I'm a huge nerd. I love pop culture. I love film. I love TV. I love comics. I grew up with these characters. So to be able to work with a guy like Downey, you can imagine how awesome that was. So I wanted to work for Marvel after Downey. I went to Warner Brothers and at Warner Brothers, I was working on all these IPS and campaigns and titles that I loved. And I was like, this is so much fun. I would die to, like, go to Disney and do this for Marvel. I have to do this for Marvel. So I tried. I tried it, tried even it down. I tried to get a job at Marvel and I came second place. And then when I was a WB, I had, I think, two tries where I came second place. And I was just like, oh, it's not it's not working, you know? And a lot of people would have just given up on that dream. It's never going to happen. Brad: I'm never going to work for Marvel, never going to work for Disney. It's just not meant to be. All right, fine. So I'm going to create my own path. That's why I did I was doing my own thing. I was producing, managing, consulting, and I brought value. To Marvel and Disney put this collaboration together with one of the biggest artists on social media, and he designed this incredible artist, so freakin talented, but the goal of working with Marvel and Disney right there. So I went from failing multiple times, not giving up and then working on the biggest movie of all time, being a very small piece to that campaign. And that's something like like I said, it's signed by the entire cast. And that's a living reminder every single day where it's like. You know, I got this tattooed on my arm, if you say a tattoo right here says whatever it takes and that's a line from Avengers and game, whatever it takes to get it done, whatever it takes, make it happen. And that's that's right there, Sam, with this one, like it's like I, I don't set limitations for myself and I will fail constantly, but it's, you know, getting hit, getting back up and keep going and trying again. And what's the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Right. So when something's not working, you got to create a new path or try something else. And that's what they did. So to fail as much as I did trying to get that job with Marvel and Disney, those opportunities didn't work out. Brad: I went out, did my own thing, created my own path and ended up working on Avengers and being part of that marketing campaign. And then I followed that up with working on Spider-Man Far From Home with Sony Pictures. And I grew up with Spider-Man. So that was an unbelievable experience for me. So once again, like chasing your passions, adding whatever value you can around those passions and staying consistent and persistent with that approach. And that was my goal, like Disney, Sony, Universal. What value can I bring to your campaign to make it the best campaign ever? Like and that's how I looked at things. I look at things from a broad standpoint of, OK, there's an opportunity here. I'm going to try to fill that hole with Zouliou. You know, but a lot of people are like, I need you to tell me. What you need to do, as I know you've got to be scrappy and self starting in that regard where it's like. I followed this artist for so long, I know I knew what he was capable of, I knew he had a huge following. So working with WB, I knew I paid creative agencies a lot of money to create assets for campaigns and then they would deliver the assets and that would be it. So I was like, why not pay an artist who has almost a million followers? To do art with a demographic that's your target market, right, so the value there was way more than what it would be with a creative agency. Brad: The value was the creative agency doesn't have a million followers that they'll post and push it out. So not that Disney needs the extra million followers, but if you're going to pay for it either way, why not be smart about it and get the most bang for your buck? And that was the approach I brought creatives influencers talent to the table who could add a unique twist to these campaigns where, you know, working on them as much as I did for two years would be a lot of the content looks the same, the same countdown images, Meems, quote, images, static images, trailers, same thing. So what can we do to make it different? That's how you make it different. So it's finding those opportunities and trying to be self starting in a way of I recognize talent. I'm going to go out and get that talent and do whatever I can to help that person. So win win. Right. And that's, you know, I'm going to bring value, you're going to bring your talents and we're going to win together, that's it. You know, and that. It's that simple, but a lot of people once again, they want all the light, they want all the credit, and those are people that are really shooting themselves in the foot because at the end of the day, that's where ego comes in. And once you get sucked into that big fat ego, you're done. Joe: Yeah, again, on that that call that we did or that video that you were on, I was like, how is this guy so humble and down to earth? And it was a total attraction to me because I mean it from my heart. I grew up just a couple hours north of New York City, and I spent a good 12 years there as a musician. And I've been to L.A. doing auditions where I was the guy from out of town. And I've seen the egos on both sides of the coast and I get it. And for you to to be the way you are and be in this business for as long as you have been and still you are who you are, that's that's a you know, you should pat yourself on the back for that because that's a big thing. So. Brad: Well, I a big thing is, you know, your reputation is everything. So when you let ego come into play. You're really once again shooting yourself in the foot and your reputation will take a massive hit because of it, because at the end of the day, man like especially in a business like this, like nobody cares, like they want whatever it is done, they don't care how it gets done, just get it done. You're not as important as you think you are. That's just the way it is. So, like, why have an ego? And plus, I'm not where I want to be. You know, there's a million people better than me. Like, that's just around. I'm 32 years old. You know, how can I possibly have an ego when there's a guy like Elon Musk walking around? Right now, I'm serious, Joe: I know. Brad: I'm serious. It's like, you know, how can I have an ego when you know a guy like Gary Vaynerchuk taken over the world? You know, like but Gary is a friend, you know, so like, where's the ego come into play? To me, it's like I have so much more room for growth and learning and just continuing to grow in that regard where it's like, how could I possibly have an ego? But I also don't want the people who I'm friends with in sixth grade to be like, wow, you really turned into a jackass. I don't want that, you know? But, you know, the guy who is on the growth now said the call was my best friend in elementary school and middle school. He was in that room. And I hit him up afterwards and thanked him for I didn't know he's going to be there, but he was there and he he thanked me profusely for acknowledging his existence in the room. And he was like, you're a good dude. My best friend from elementary school and middle school Joe: It's crazy. Brad: Just said I was a good dude after all the time had passed all the experiences I've had, but I'm not perfect. You know, I make mistakes, but it's never done in a I'm better than you, you know, way. I just I don't believe in that. We may have a bad exchange. You may catch me on a rough day. We're human, but there's a difference between. A mistake and an exchange and just being a pompous ass, right? Huge difference. And there's if you look hard enough, you'll see the difference. But I try so hard to make sure every interaction that I have is a good one. And it's not just about. I got to make myself look so cool in this chat. It's like I want Joe to really enjoy this conversation and have good things to say about me, hopefully on the end. That's my goal. But if I'm here like Joe, you are a worthless dude. Like, I mean, come on. Like, it's just like Joe, you wouldn't understand. I'm in the big leagues, Joe: Right, Brad: Bro. Joe: You're right. Brad: It's just I don't it drives me crazy because I've experienced it so much with with egos on the people that I've interacted with. And it's such a turnoff where you're just like you won't even look at me in the face or you won't talk to me enough to talk to me through somebody else. I just like I don't care. I don't care who you are. I don't want to deal with that. I'm a human just like you. You're in a high profile position. That's the only difference. That's it. So, yeah, I mean, there's nothing to have an ego about. Like I'm nowhere where I want to be. Yet I've done a lot of great things I'm grateful for and and I'm continuing to build in that regard. But yeah, there's there's absolutely if you're making others feel little. Unless then you're a pretty shitty person and I don't ever want to be a person that makes somebody else feel less than ever. Joe: Well, like I said, I could tell it's just so natural for you and I'm thrilled to be here with you. So I again, I'm going to drag you back to my school. So forgive me, but I want to understand what the pivot was from you starting out with sports, which seemed like a natural thing for you to do because it's such a heavy sports town. But you so you did this, but you also mentioned that you've worked in a movie theater. So was your first love, the whole movie thing. But sports, how did you transition and are you still involved in sports? Brad: Yes, I'm so very involved with with my guys specifically on the Steelers and the Penguins, I want to I want to be a person of value to those guys, whether it's personally, professionally, whatever they need. Like I said, hey, move my car. Hey, you know, how do I get this done? Help with an endorsement deal, whatever it is. So I I'm very much still involved with sports. I love sports, but I'm a two sided coin, right. When one side sports, you have those entertainment. So I dabbled in sports initially. That was my my first thing. And I got to the point where I was like, man, I'm like 24, 25 if I don't pursue this other thing. I might miss my window, and that's when I. Had the opportunity to move out here and work with Downey and his team, and that's where I went heavy into entertainment. So but what's great about entertainment is like you could very well pull sports into it, like sports is under the entertainment umbrella. So I don't really look at them separate. Obviously, I started in sports initially, but, you know, once you're in entertainment, fashion, gaming, TV, film, music, sports, I mean, my goodness, you could everything falls under that. Brad: So it's that's what's exciting to me is when I was, you know, in a smaller town like Charlotte, I knew a lot of people. And then when I went to Pittsburgh, I really. Built a lot of crazy relationships, and once again, this is not networking, I want to be very clear, it's actually building genuine relationships with people, whether they're not famous or famous, like it's it's the same. It's consistent, but it was more of like, how can I build how quickly can I build in a bigger city like Pittsburgh? Right. And eight months I i from the top of the Steelers organization to the to heavy hitters and the Penguins organization to, you know, Lynn Swann like huge, huge names. And we're talking like personal relationships with these people. And that showed me, like, if I ever go to a big city and live in New York or L.A., I could really get stuff done. So when I came out to L.A., that was that was my goal. What can I accomplish in L.A.? Who can I get connected to and build relationships with and what could we accomplish together? Right. And I moved out to L.A. and started with Robert Downey Jr. and Joe: So, Brad: Then from there. Joe: Yeah, so before we go there, because I want to ask how that happened, and I think it's it's driving my mind crazy because I want to know how someone gets their first gig out there in a sense. And I'm not sure if that's true, but if that is true, then I really that's incredible. But with the sports figures in Pittsburgh, when somebody hears you tell this story, it's like, well, what does that mean? Ditcher, did someone in your family know somebody and allowed you to stand on the sideline what they were like? How do you get in front of these people? What's what's the connection that you used to kind of stack on all these people Brad: Yeah, Joe: That you would meet? I mean. Brad: Well, stacking on is a good way to put it, because at the end of the day, we are our own brand right now from me, starting at 16, 17, 18 years old and working with professional athletes and the Steelers. I've been around that organization since like 2005, 2006. Consistently, it's twenty twenty one, so that's a long time being around the team, the players, the ownership, the coach like. Joe: But how how did you do that, like what Brad: Well, it Joe: Does that mean, because I am Brad: Once Joe: In Brad: Yeah, Joe: Love, I have never seen it. So I go to the Cardinals games, Brad: Once Joe: But. Brad: You get once you get connected to one and back when I got connected, it was I literally was able to connect through the phone book like it was that kind of scrappy thinking that I was able to at the time. Phone books were still a thing and one thing led to another, got connected to somebody else and that was it. But, you know, now it's Deanne's or introductions through contacts, but you have to be able to introduce yourself and a wow manner. Right. So I've been building my brand since 16, 17, 18 years old. So when I run into someone or I'm at an event or I'm at training camp and I have the opportunity to say hello, I'm not saying, hey, can I have your autograph Joe: Right. Brad: Or hey, can I have a picture I can't write? Brad Lambert, you know, I've been around the team since 2005. I would love to connect any way I can help. Let me know. I mean, what more could you ask for that? That's an elevator pitch. Home, right? Right. So that was how I handled it, and it was like, yeah, I'm friends with Willie Parker, I know Hines and all the guys, you know, and, oh, OK. You know, once you have that credibility where you can attach your name to somebody else in a way that I'm friends with so-and-so, that wall of defense goes down. Goes away. Immediate because a lot of people are like, who are you and why are you talking to me when you say something like that? That wall comes down now like, oh, what's up? You're just a normal person. You're not a crazy fan. Right. And that is how you separate yourself by not acting like crazy fan. And the best example I could give is I went to training camp a lot back in the day and I used to bring a bunch of my friends. We would go and we would be on the field because of my relationships, be on the field during practice, which is amazing. And then after practice, everyone would scatter and get as many photos and as many autographs and we'd all come back like half hour later when everybody left. And would you get what you get? How'd you get that? And everyone would be like, Oh, I got so-and-so this, not this and that. And then Bobby Brown, would you get I was like at zero. No, like you had 30 to 40 minutes to get as many photos and autographs as possible on the field with all these guys. And you got zero. I was like, yeah, but I got seven phone numbers. And they're like, oh, Joe: Yeah. Brad: That's how different we were wired, right priorities, man, like I'll get autographs and photos later when I'm hanging out with them at their house. I don't care about that. Like, I want to build a genuine relationship. And you're not going to do that when you start by asking for photos or autographs. It's just not going to happen. So like Downey, for instance, I've known him for six years. But I didn't get my first picture with Downey until like 20, 19 Christmas right before the pandemic, I was at his Christmas party and it was like a five year. Window was like, it's been five years, like, can I get a photo? I would love to just close that Joe: Right. Brad: That loop. And and he was like, get over here, man. Of course, like that. Don't be ridiculous, you know? But once again, if I the first time I saw him, I ran up and was like, can we get a selfie like that? That's so annoying. The first time I saw him, I walked up to him and I introduced myself and I said, thank you for the opportunity. I look forward to working with you. You know, but Joe: Yeah, Brad: That's Joe: Yea. Brad: That's the difference. Joe: And you're very wise for your years of being, because I I was that person because I was so starstruck as like I wanted to be this touring drummer, that was my goal. I went to music school, which that's another question I'd have to ask, but I can't forget that. I have to make sure we talk about that quickly. But so anytime I went to see someone, I don't think I was obnoxious, but I was definitely starstruck. And it was it wasn't I never was thinking of, hey, I know you're in town. If there's anything I can do for you while here, let me know. Like, if I just said that whatever and walked away, that would have been. But instead, I know that I gushed and Brad: It's Joe: So Brad: Normal. Joe: And so I wasn't wired like you. But my it's changed for me a lot. So even where I am now, now it's just like, listen, I'm just trying to do good in the world and the people that can see that through me. Great. And so things have really changed in the last, I would say, a couple of months for me just because I changed my mindset. And it's a shame it took me this long to figure it out, but at least I figured it out before it's too late. So. Brad: Everybody has their own their Joe: Yeah, Brad: Own time and Joe: Yeah. Brad: Their own their own path, their own way of living. I mean, it's not a competition. I mean, I you know, my way of thinking wasn't always right, you know? I mean, it's just the reality of it. I missed out on a lot because of the way I was. I've been wired and I wouldn't change it. But it's not all rainbows and unicorns, you know what I mean? It's it's just it's tough, you know? So it's I don't want you to or anybody, for that matter to think, oh, I don't think like Brad, I failed, you know, or I waited till I was fifty nine years old to get this. It's like it's not a competition like, you know, so I don't I don't subscribe to that kind of stuff. But yeah, I mean it was the relationships are what matter. And when you deal with high level people, they don't really have genuine relationships. Because they're high level people, a lot of people want stuff, so when you come at it almost obnoxiously like, what can I do for you? How can I help? They're like, wow, this is refreshing. You know, how are you? Like, how are you? Like, who's asking then that, you know? But that's the difference, you know? And that's at the end of the day, these are normal people and they just want to feel normal sometimes. Brad: And that's what I try to give. You know, it's like let's go back to the house and play that. And till our eyes bleed, like, that's that's the kind of like normalcy I want. These guys, most of them are young man, like twenty, twenty one years old. I'm the old man now at thirty two when I was 17, 18 when I first met these guys. Now I'm the old guy so like you know, but that, that trust that I have and you know, just try to help and give them opportunities and keep them away from certain things early in their career. You know, some of them don't want to hear it. And I've lost relationships because I've been brutally honest from a professional standpoint of like, yo, this is not this is not a good move for your brand and your business moving forward. And some of them like see you later. OK, but at the end of the day, it was all love. You know, I didn't get anything out of it. So it's it's been honest and transparent and truly having their best interests in mind. And just anybody I work with, I try to have really, you know, care and show that I care. Brad: But the one thing, too is, is empathy is so important. A lot of people aren't empathetic enough. They don't look at people and read that they're sad or they're stressed or they're anxious or whatever and then react accordingly. They only care about themselves and what they want out of a situation, and that's it. But you have to acknowledge these things and you have to care about how other people are feeling, because if you can identify. Oh, wow, look at look at, you know, Joe, he looks like a little down today. I'm going to hit him up, you know, makes a difference. I've had people on Twitter just. Oh, my life sucks, I'm having a horrible day, getting out of bed is hard. I call him. How are you? Talk to me. I'm here. I send my message, hey, sound good vibes. I'm here if you need to talk. You're not alone, your loved. Whatever everybody's going through, man. But if you just say about yourself, you know, and one person that I did do that to recently hit me up like that meant a lot to me. Because I was struggling. And that little text that you sent me a text, Joe, you know how long it took me? Joe: Right, right. I Brad: But Joe: Think Brad: Once Joe: You Brad: Again. Joe: Brought that up on the call on Brad: Yeah, Joe: The summit. Yeah. Brad: But that's that's a difference, it's like a lot of people think they're too important or too busy, too arrogant, too ignorant to do these little simple things, or in reality, if everyone did a little extra, the simple things that we overlook or don't want to take the time to do the world would be a much kinder, happier place. But that's the issue. And that's like, you know, naive of me to think. But I'm trying to make that the norm. I'm trying to show people that those little things that you do mean something and and it matters, especially when everyone's dealing with a global pandemic. So, you know, I think hearing that someone appreciates you or like you reaching out to me after the event like that was awesome. That made my day. Like anybody who wants to hear me speak, I'm like, wow, OK, cool, thanks. You know, so it's but that's it's the little things, you know. And a lot of people don't care to acknowledge those things or give those little things that you do. And I think that's where the problem lies. Joe: Yeah, I agree with you so much. OK, so you get on with college, you what is the catalyst in the plan like what groundwork was laid so that you literally could move to L.A. and hit the ground running? And not only that, but work with somebody like Robert. Brad: From a very young age, I was trying to surround myself with people who I admire and who inspire me. That's like just not because I wanted anything other just to be a part of their lives, like and that's what I constantly did since I was young. And I build genuine relationships because of that. Like, I it's not I need something better. And when I don't get what I need, I'm now like, that's not what we're talking about. People like we're talking like. And her relationship, genuinely, you're not expecting anything if you get something great, hallelujah, good for you. But if you don't get something that doesn't mean you're bailing and you're out of there and you never talk to that person again, that that's not a genuine relationship, that that's what you're doing. Period. So I've constantly tried to surround myself with people who I admire, they could be massive celebrities, they could be professional athletes, it could be someone who works at the grocery store down the street. They're a good person. Or they could be an artist who's just so ridiculously talented. It blows my mind like I don't have ulterior motives. I just want to surround myself with amazing good people, period. So with that mindset, my network is pretty robust and I have some pretty incredible people in my life. And I got connected to someone and he opened the door for me and that that was it. That's how I got to Downey at. Joe: When did you move? What year was that? Brad: A 15, I think, yeah, because I've been in L.A. six years, so it was February Joe: So Brad: 2015. Joe: And when you moved out there, you literally had this gig ready, you hit, you just landed, got an apartment or whatever, and you started working with Robert. Brad: Right away, hyp. Joe: That's incredible. Brad: But that's but that's that's an example of some of the amazing things that can happen when you lead with kindness, you add value, you build genuine relationships, and when all those things add up and it gets to a point where people are like, all right, you've done so much for me, what can I do for you? You know, like it. Unless they're the worst type of person, they're probably going to say that to some extent. Like I said it last night to somebody, somebody has helped me out with a project like what can I do for you? How can I help you? Any phone calls, emails, whatever. I'll do what I can. No promises, but I'll try to help you. It's just human nature, like we all have the ability to help someone, but if you don't ask, right, going Joe: And. Brad: Back to the start of this conversation, you don't ask, you don't get. So that's that's the whole thing where it's like, you know, some people are too afraid to ask. Some people are too in their head about asking. But it's like if you ask them, then they feel more comfortable to be like, you know what, they're really struggling with X, Y, Z. Like that young lady who reached out to me on LinkedIn. Can I talk to you for 15 minutes, please? Who the hell am I? Yeah, of course we did it, you know, and she emailed me in the next morning. It was like I'm so driven and motivated from our conversation of email. Two hundred people today. The good. You've get it. You know, but that's the. I want to have an impact. I want to be a source of positivity and kindness and, you know, people are going to talk crap about you one way or another, but make them look really stupid to talk crap about someone who's doing that kind of stuff. Right. Like, are you seriously having this conversation about that person right now? All the all that they're doing? Really. OK. Good for you, but that's that's the thing, it's everybody's going to have their opinions, they're going to hate, you know, the peanut gallery is very large, but that's the thing. It's like those people are unhappy with themselves, their lives, and they feel better about themselves by talking crap about other people. That's not my thing. I don't do that. I don't care to do that. But those people are broken and hurting in their own rights and they'll do what they do. But you can't let it get to you. You got to keep just doing your thing. But once again, if you're meeting with kindness and value and you're trying to make the world a better place and make somebody's life better, you know, I've got messages like you saved my life. Joe: You just need one of those and then you go. All right. I know what I'm doing. Brad: But that's Joe: I'm doing. Brad: That's my that's like some bigger people would look at this podcast, be like, this isn't Joe Rogan, why am I going to waste my time? It's like if I impact one person, even if it's you, Joe, with this conversation, it was worth my time. Joe: Well, it's so funny because you're probably going to be the only guest in this whole year that I've done this, that I was going to ask, what made you say? Brad: That's it, like I look at this, I try to do as many of these as I can and yeah, I'm busy, whatever, but like once again, what's 15, 30 an hour to to do a podcast that will live forever on the Internet. So I could impact someone ten years from now or I can impact someone today like, like that. That's the once again broader. Mindset, looking at the big picture, because I have people from different continents, like places I've never even heard of who found me on social media, who follow me, and then literally what one guy in particular is his name's Yassir and he listens and watches all my stuff. And then he sends me these beautifully written messages of his thoughts and all of these, like what he got out of it. And I'm just I just sit back every time, like, wow. Like this guy who I've never met before and I'm in a place I've never been to like. We're not connected other than social media. He found me and he's a he appreciates my stuff so much that he takes the time every single time to listen and watch my stuff when it comes out. So he watches and he'll he'll hear me talking about him and stuff. But Joe: It's Brad: That's Joe: Called. Brad: But that's like that's why I do this man. It's just like he's so impacted by what I have to say. And that's a mind blowing thing to say. Like for me, like I'm just trying to be honest and tell my story and hopefully it helps impact somebody else in a positive way. But but when you really get in that group of hearing from people and and you motivated them or you inspired them, like I spoke at Columbia College, Hollywood about a month ago and some of the responses afterwards from the students were like, you gave me the confidence to pursue my dreams. Joe: That's powerful, Brad: Are you kidding Joe: Yeah. Brad: Me? Like like how selfish would I have to be as a human being to not do what I do? If that's the response I'm getting, even if it's one person. Joe: Yeah, it's Brad: How Joe: Incredible. Brad: Idiotically selfish is that, but once again, I'm not here saying, Joe, if you do, you'll be a billionaire. Like I'm not that person and I'm not trying to hawk a class at you or get you to pay like I'm trying to. I'm trying to teach foundational skills that have been completely lost in this generation, completely lost and GenZE. They're even worse, like they have it off worse. So I'm trying to fix this and also instill this into the up and coming generation. I'm even writing a children's book right now to instill these core values at a very young age. So it's I'm trying to trying to get this back into where the world was. You know, it's not such a hateful and nasty place. Like I had someone said to my dad the other day and just say the nastiest shit to me. And I was just like I was like, how am I going to respond to this? And I responded with thank you so much. I appreciate the love and with like a flex emoji. Right. And that person laughed with a bunch of emojis and I haven't heard from them again. So I gave them the attention they were looking for. And I also probably shook them to their core because they wanted a shouting match. And instead I like self-destruct in their brain because I hit them with that. OK, you know, I've had people do that where I hit him with kindness, kill with kindness, kindness to do that, and you do that and they're like, oh my gosh, I love your content. I'm like, well, what happened to Joe: Yeah, Brad: The Joe: Right, Brad: You know, or they follow me right after. Joe: Right. Brad: They follow me right after, like, oh, my gosh, you know, but that's that's like once again, these people are just broken, you know, and they they're hurting. And I feel for them and I hope they can find their happiness in their path. And but it's not by being hateful and nasty to other people. If if you're actively going out of your way to sabotage and bring other people down or make other people feel less than you are broken. And you need to do a lot of soul searching because whatever you're doing is not working, and I promise you, you're not going to get to where you want to go by going down this path, you may feel really powerful and cool about yourself, but at the end of the day, nobody else thinks you're cool and nobody else likes you. That's the reality of Joe: Yeah, Brad: It. Joe: It's just so I want to respect your time, because we're getting close and I literally could go on and I have so much that we never got to, but I want to thank God so much. We didn't get to I want to talk about your book because you mentioned it on the summit. And so is that something different than the children's book or. That is the book. Brad: Now, that's that's the book I'm starting with a children's series partnered with a phenomenal artist in Sweden that I found years ago on social media. Once again, I try to surround myself with people who I admire and who inspire me. I found her work two years ago, and I knew from the onset of finding her, I was like, there's there's something there and I'm going to figure it out. She's just phenomenal. And here we are right now, and she's doing all the illustrations for the book. So it's just one of those things where it's, you know, she'll love, support other people and good things happen. And if they if something doesn't happen, you're still OK because you're connected with that person and you have those conversations and the happiness exchanges, that that's what makes life worth living, you know, and that's a lot of people want the transactional stuff. And yeah, it's great. But at the same time, it's not everything. You know, so many people have the transactions, but they have no soul. So what's what's the point of that? Joe: How much can you share about the book, like whatever Brad: Yeah, Joe: You want? Brad: It's pretty straightforward, I mean, it's a picture book for kids, so it's a very entry level in that regard. I want to kind of put it in the same category as like, you know, a Dr. Seuss reading level. Like, it's very basic. It's not a crime book, but it is very basic in that sense. You know, I'm not a professional writer or anything. So for me to put my words on paper and do this is once again, I'm stepping out of my comfort zone to do this because I feel like I could hopefully potentially impact someone in a positive way. So I've created this little universe with, you know, my my dog is the main character champ, and he's a boxer and he's my my child. I love him to death. So he's he and his friends are going to be teaching is valuable lessons to whoever reads the book and the first books about kindness. So it's going to be champ giving examples of how to be kind. And we're talking basic stuff like helping someone in need, you know, complimenting someone, defending someone in front of a bully. Very basic stuff. No one's asking you to move mountains. Basic stuff. Give someone a gift. Like it's just basic stuff. And that's, I think from that digestible level of those basic tasks at a young age, people will get that compliment. Someone I like your shirt. Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. You know, or. Oh, my my kite is stuck in a tree. I wish someone would help me. Oh, got you on there. You know, but that's the thing man. A lot of people look the other way and that's that's the problem. So if I can you know, the artwork she's doing is so incredible. It's like I compare it to like the likes of Pixar and Disney. Like, she's just so amazing. So the illustrations are going to be out of this world. So as long as I don't screw up the basic story, I think we'll be OK. Joe: And when's it due out? Brad: Man, I'm juggling so many different projects. I'm trying to get it done as soon as possible. You know, she has a lot going on, so we're all kind of just doing the best we can with the time. I'd love to get it out in the next three to six months, but once again, I'm hoping for a series where you'll see all these different characters and multiple books. And it's been cool because I've incorporated my previous pets into dogs that are no longer with us. For me, I have pets of dear friends of mine that are basically family that passed away, that I put in the book out of love and respect for them so they can live forever. So it's just really cool to to have that control, to tell my own story. And everybody plays a role. There's a significance to every character in the book. And I think it'll be fun for people to to enjoy these unique characters and illustrations and really bring them to life. And that's I can't credit her enough for names in the arts on Instagram. She's phenomenal. Brad: Her real name is Hedvig and she's in Sweden and she's amazing. So any updates I get from her always puts a smile on my face because she's just talented. And that that's one thing. As a manager, as a producer, I'd like to think I have a good eye for talent, whether it be for sports or music or anything. I just have a good grasp on that because I look at the big picture, whether it's from your brand or your talent in general or in a potential, you're being underutilized or whatever. And she's definitely one that is just so gifted and talented in any way. I can help her grow and win like we're winning together on this book. So it's it's a cool project. I'm excited. And like I said, if one kid reads it. And get something out of it, I've done my job, but it's also cool to to do it for my dog champ and to see him as a cartoon character is is pretty cool. So I'll send you some images offline and you can get a first look. Joe: I would love it. I would love it. All right, cool. So, again, we're right Brad: You Joe: At Brad: Had Joe: The. Brad: You had one question, you said, I can't forget. Joe: I know, but I don't want to keep you because Brad: I'm Joe: It's Brad: Good at Joe: Ok, Brad: It. Joe: So OK, you promise? Brad: Yeah, yeah, I'm good till one Joe: Ok, Brad: One 30. So. Joe: Ok, so I wanted to get to the school thing about you went to college and took the year off, you finish on line. I love Gary Vaynerchuk. I spoke to him once on the phone for like maybe two minutes tops. It was it's a story I'll tell you at another time. But he talks about you have to make that decision. And and if people are listening to this that are younger in high school or college right now, what is your opinion, if you don't mind, on doing what you love and just getting out there and doing it as opposed to going to college? And I know it varies on the circumstance, right. You can't you can't go out and walk into a surgery room and say, OK, I'm here to learn. And certain things have to happen that way. But certain things which I'd like to know what you think about that. Brad: For the parents out there, I would always say, you know, academics are important, I would I would go to college if you can. But I would also say on the flip side, if you're in a situation where you're getting good experience. In the streets and on the ground and real world experience, in my opinion, that's something that is far beyond anything you'll ever learn in school. And I can say that wholeheartedly. My on the ground in the street work that I've done since 16, 17, 18 years old, that's what made me who I am. School had a part of that, obviously. But it's you know, you can't adapt to to situations in a classroom, whereas in the real world, like, things come at you quick and you've got to be able to adapt and react accordingly. And that experience that you challenge yourself at an early age, I mean, there are high school kids where I'm like, get out there. Like, what are you waiting for? Start like now has never been a better time to do your own thing because you have Google, we have YouTube, we have all of social media, you have master class, you have all these tools that you can leverage to do your own thing, whether you're consulting, whether you want to be a music artist. Like there are so many tools that like with our iPhones now shooting for K, you don't even need a crew anymore like it. It literally is so easy to do your own thing. Brad: So now I would say if it makes sense for you and you have support around you financially and good people who are going to help you when you fall, give it a shot. But if you don't. Go to college, do what you need to do, get your degree and move forward, but like some people truly are wired for entrepreneurship. And I was that person and when I put myself in nine to five,

Going on podcasts can be a great opportunity for small business owners. You’re getting in front of a new audience to tell your story and show your expertise. But did you know there’s a whole other avenue you can explore? Kristin Molenaar does, and she tell us all about it! Plus, in Build Something More, she walks us through forming your podcast pitch. (more…) View on separate page Transcript Joe: Hey everybody, and welcome to Episode 207 of How I Build It, the podcast that asks, How did you build that? Today my guest is… I’m so terrible because I just asked you how to pronounce your last name. Kristin Molenaar. Kristin: You got it. Molenaar. Joe: Excellent. Excellent. I’m excited to be talking to Kristin Molenaar. She is the founder of YesBoss. And we’re going to be talking about why being a podcast guest is ineffective for many entrepreneurs. But before we get into that, I do want to tell you that today’s episode is brought to you by three fantastic sponsors: Mindsize, Restrict Content Pro, and TextExpander. You will be hearing about those fine folks later in the episode. Right now. Let’s bring on our guests. Kristin, how are you? Kristin: Hey, I’m doing well. How are you? Joe: I am doing fantastically. Like I said, I’m really excited to talk about this. Because I do feel like for a long time I didn’t take advantage of the fact well enough that I was going on other people’s podcasts and trying to build my audience, things like that. I know that a lot of my guests, this is a platform for them. Basically, what we’re trading here is you are giving me some of your time so I can create good content and I am putting you in front of my audience. So I want you to have people get in touch with you and stuff like that. So hopefully, this will be a good reference for future guests on this podcast and others. But before we get into that—I just said ‘before we get into that’ like three times—I want you to tell people who you are and what you do. Kristin: I run a company called YesBoss. We’re a podcast booking agency, essentially. So we help mostly service-based entrepreneurs, so online service providers, we help them get booked on podcasts so they can generate more leads in just an hour a week. My zone of genius is talking. I like to talk for a living, and we help other clients who like to do that exact same thing. Joe: That’s fantastic. And I’ve got to say you do a good job. I get lots of guest pitches each day and I have a pretty strong litmus test for if I’m going to respond or not or if I’m going to accept the guest or not. And you pass not once but twice or thrice, I think at this point. Kristin: A testament to our service, huh? Thank you for that. Joe: Absolutely. Because you get the pitches and it’s like, “Hi (name), I’m person…” And then like five paragraphs about why they’re so great. And I’m just like, “I don’t want you to just… I want to bring value to my listeners.” I don’t remember exactly what you said in your email but I read it and I was like, “I think this will be insanely valuable for both me and my listener.” Kristin: Well, I’m excited. There’s definitely a formula there. There’s definitely a lot of testing we’ve done to those pitches. So I’m so glad to hear your thoughts on it. Thank you so much. Joe: Absolutely. And thank you for taking the time. I feel like you’ve listened to the show and you knew exactly what I want to talk about. So, you don’t have to say whether you have or not, but it felt that way at least. So you are a podcast booking agency. There is definitely a lot of value in that. So maybe before we get into the main thing that we’re talking about, why should more entrepreneurs go on podcasts? Kristin: I would say that it’s like the simplest sales funnel I’ve ever built in my whole entire life. I feel like as entrepreneurs, you know, especially if you’re an entrepreneur that has ever been on Facebook, you’re gonna be hit with a lot of messages about how to do all the things. And I think what took me a while to really learn because when I first started in this entrepreneurial journey I was floundering for 14 months, and then I found a rhythm that really worked. What I really found is it all boils down to having a sales funnel that hits a few checkmarks. So at the top of that sales funnel is, how are you getting visible? How are you attracting those people? How are you then nurturing those people, selling those people, and retaining those people? So that’s just this basic sales funnel strategy. And there’s all these ways to do that. There’s ads, there’s social media platforms. There’s all these top level things to get new audience attraction, then there’s all these ways to nurture your clients, you know, email lists or people that are on your social media. How are you retaining those existing people and selling? So there’s all these different ways to do this. What I have found though is… I stumbled upon this honestly. When I started doing podcast guesting myself, what I realized is I was getting in front of new people and attracting new people, and forming relationships with a new person. So specifically the podcast host. And what happened afterwards was people were coming to me to ask about my services and they had already been pre-sold. Because the nature of a podcast episode is that you are building that trust factor really rapidly, you are attracting. You’re the nurturing by really sharing all of your genius on that episode. Like you already said at the beginning of this episode, you bring on guests, and you want to highlight all the ways that they know how to do what they do. So you’re providing a platform for me to talk to you about how smart I am. I mean, if you want to put it that way. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly what it is. Kristin: And by the end of the episode, you know how to work with me, you know who in your network to tell to work with me. And then as a ripple effect, so I see this as a secondary thing, as the secondary thing, your audience and the people that are listening to the podcast also know that. So I’ve just been kind of blown away at how effective and fun it’s been. Joe: That’s incredible. I love a lot of what you said there. I mean, if longtime listeners of the show will know I’ve said no trust a million times on this podcast. Because it’s so important. It’s why I teach people how to start their own podcasts to grow their business because it’s an easy way… not an easy way but it’s a fast way to convince people that you are likeable and trustworthy. And people invite me into their headphones every week. So they feel like they know me. And it’s a strong bond. So, when I have a guest on the show, I’m saying I trust this person enough to give them the platform of listeners I have teach me something. I learn something from every single one of my guests. So I love what you said there about how this is the simplest sales funnel you’ve ever built in your life. How do you figure out what shows you should go on? Kristin: I think this is a really good question. I think I’ve got to start it by saying this. I think that most people see podcasts guesting in one of two ways. They see it as a traditional marketing strategy. And that marketing strategy says, “Find the podcast with the biggest audience that you can attract and go there.” And then the other people see this as traditional PR strategy. And the PR strategy says, “Get on the podcast with the biggest name recognition so you can leverage that authority on your website, your social media presence,” all those places. For me, I see it a bit differently. For me, I have realized that being a profitable podcast guest has more to do with relationships than it does marketing and PR strategies. So when I’m looking at what podcasts I want to be on… You know, I looked at you, Joe, I didn’t necessarily look at your audience and who you’ve attracted but like, are you someone that I want to have a business relationship with? Are you someone who has a complimentary or similar message to that that I share? Do our business philosophies align? Do we think the same way when it comes to what we do for our clients? Because I have seen that when I focus on relationships, the ripple effects of every time that I show up are so much greater than what can happen when I just attract your audience. I’ve seen things being invited to be a guest inside somebody’s paid course or mastermind or whatever. I’ve had those opportunities arise. I’ve been invited to speak on stages, I’ve been invited to have JV partnerships, somebody that interviewed me is now an affiliate partner for me, so they make money when I make money. These kinds of things all come from relationship. And when you’re looking just at the person’s audience, you’re really missing out on that relationship aspect. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by Restrict Content Pro. If you need a fast, easy way to set up a membership site for yourself or your clients, look no further than the Restrict Content Pro WordPress plugin. Easily create premium content for members using your favorite payment gateway, manage members, send member-only emails, and more. You can create any number of subscription packages, including free trials and even free tiers. But that’s not all, their extensive add-ons library allows you to do even more, like drip out content, connect with any number of CRMs and newsletter tools, including my favorite ConvertKit, and you can integrate with other WordPress plugins like bbPress. When the Build Something Club comes out later this month, you can bet it’s going to be using Restrict Content Pro. I’m a big fan of the team. I’m a big fan of the tool and I know they do fantastic work over there. If you want to learn more about Restrict Content Pro and start making money with your own membership site today, head on over to howibuilt.it/rcp, that’s howibuilt.it/rcp to learn more and get a special offer for listeners only. Thanks so much to Restrict Content Pro for supporting the show. Joe: It becomes increasingly clear now why your pitch to come on this show stood out more than other pitches. Because, again, I really can’t stress this enough. I talk a lot. I try not to talk about myself a lot. When I get a pitch is just like, “Jim baseball, went to Harvard, and was the first of his class and all this and now he’s great. And here’s all the reasons He’s great.” I’m just like, “Cool. What does that mean for me?” I’ve had great people on my podcast, but I want my audience to come away with someone they can feel like they can form a relationship with. So I really love that. Kristin: There’s two things that I want to say to kind of expand on what you’ve just said. It’s the job of the podcast guests to deliver an episode on a silver platter to the podcast host. And that starts with writing a really good pitch. The pitch has got to include talking points that are not all about how I built a million-dollar business with a team of five people. Okay, cool. But what is that episode about? What is the value that you’re going to be bringing to the podcast host audience? So, the podcast guests, they should be focused on the podcast host. What they have to understand is a podcast host is looking for how to deliver the most value to their audience. So you’ve got to deliver to them exactly what the episode is going to be about. Because if I hadn’t written talking points that were valuable to your audience, we would get on this interview and you would be thinking, “Cool, I don’t know what to ask Kristin. I am not sure what her zone of genius is. I don’t even know what this episode is gonna be about.” No one would find value in that episode at all, and that would be me doing you a disservice. Joe: That’s a very generous way to put it. Because I also think it’s the host’s job to tee up things, really good things for the guests to ask. It’s a good back and forth, a good conversation. But like you said, you gave me topics, and I’m like, “Yes, this is really good for my audience.” If we look at the pitch and it’s like, “Yeah, I built a million dollars in 30 days with five people or whatever,” it’s like, “Cool. I want guests that my audience can relate to.” I’ve had really good big name guests, but the episodes didn’t do very well because the guest was not relatable. Whereas some of the episodes with maybe lesser known people, people who don’t have their own giant audience, but delivered huge value… downloads through the roof. So it’s definitely less about who is on the show as much as what you talk about on the show. Kristin: It also hits on the point that your accolades have to have relevance. Accolades for the sake of accolades are not interesting to anyone but yourself. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Kristin: There’s a place for it in the pitch to talk about the things that you’ve done, but the point of talking about those things are to just prove to the person that you have the ability to talk about those talking points. So if it’s where I went to college or something else, there’s no relevance there. There’s no tie into what the episode is actually about or what we’re going to be talking about. Joe: Right. Yeah. Unless my show was like, “People who went to Harvard.” Kristin: There you go. Joe: Especially the revenue one. This is my last ranty point. But the revenue one is always suspect to me, because if you have a million-dollar revenue business and your expenses are like a million in one dollars, you don’t have a successful business; you are making no money. There are at least better accolades than how much revenue your business makes. Kristin: Right. It’s a vanity metric. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Kristin: Revenue is a vanity metric. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Well, that was fun. I have strong opinions and I’m always happy for it to wax poetic about them. But getting back on course here, why should we go on a podcast? We answered how do you figure out what shows to go on. Let’s say now that the listener here has reached out to a podcast and they have successfully landed the guest spot. The topic that you reached out about, the reason why being a podcast guest is ineffective for most entrepreneurs is one that really rings true to me. Because it’s time that you should really take advantage of in some way. First of all, let’s talk about why is it ineffective for most entrepreneurs, then we can talk about how to not make it ineffective. How to make it effective? There we go. Kristin: Yeah, I think that’s perfect. I think that’s perfect. I do talk to people all the time and have said, “I’ve been invited to speak on a podcast and it didn’t yield any results for me. I didn’t get any clients from it. There were no results.” However, that looks to you. And at the root of it, I feel that there’s a common denominator here. And often that is that the person doing the guesting doesn’t really know what they’re offering. It’s probably too wide. I mean, really, this is like a business foundational thing, but it is so essential when you’re getting yourself out there and creating visibility for yourself. Yes, okay, maybe you’re a business consultant, business coach, maybe you’re a copywriter, but those are really, really broad things. You’ve got to know like, what are you specifically doing? So here’s the thing about what I do. People know that I booked people on podcasts. That’s not very wide. That is really darn specific. That same kind of specificity can be for even the business coaches or consultants that offer a wide variety of services, you have to think about what’s your point of entry. What’s the first thing that people do to work with you? What is that one problem or one solution that you can solve for somebody, that very first one that you can solve for them? If you’re a copywriter, I’ve talked to several copywriters, who because they’re really great copywriters and they’ve got great social media presences, they’ve been invited to speak on podcast and they’re like, “But it didn’t yield anything.” And I’m thinking, “Okay, when you got off that episode, did the podcast host, they probably thought that you were really smart, and they would love to work with you if they had some kind of work to give to you, but did they even know what to hire you for? Were they hiring you to write their sales pages? Were they hiring you to write their social media content? Were they hiring you to write emails for them? What were they hiring you to do?” Because there’s got to be that really specific offer that you know how to talk about. The way that I talk to my clients is, do you have a methodology for what you do? That methodology becomes so easy to get in the room and have an interview about how you do all the things you do. So, for me, my objective with a really good podcast interview is I’m able to talk someone else through how to do my job. So essentially, if you’re a DIY kind of person, you could do my job for me. And that’s okay because my ideal clients, the cream of the crop are the people that hear that I know what I’m doing, they know that they don’t want to DIY it themselves, and it becomes a no-brainer for them to work with somebody like me. Joe: Love that. Because something I think a lot of people are worried about, especially when they go on podcasts or when they blog, is that, “Well, if I just tell people what to do, they’re gonna do it, and they’re not gonna hire me.” But that’s not the case. Imagine if you hired somebody to remodel your kitchen. After he walks me through how he’s going to do it, I want to hire him even more because I’m like, “I can’t do this. I’m gonna mess this up.” Kristin: That’s a good example. Joe: It’s the same. I was on a podcast recently where we talked about four ways to monetize your podcast. And I told them everything that they need to do to monetize their podcast. And if they want to go off and do it, they can, but if they’re like, “Wait, I don’t know how to configure this tool that Joe talked about to do it,” or “I don’t know how to set up a membership site with WordPress,” now they know how to get ahold of me because… Well, I don’t want to spoil what you’re about to say, but they do know how to get a hold of me I suspect because of the way you’re going to answer this next question, which they don’t know what they’re offering. How do you begin Build an offering for a podcast? What are the steps that I need to take to make sure I am making the most of being a podcast guest? Kristin: There’s two things. There’s what happens before, which we already kind of touched on, and what happens after. So the what happens before is making sure that you’re writing those talking points that lead the conversation into that. The whole topic that we’re talking about right now is being an effective versus an ineffective podcast guest. You asking me that tees up all the talking points and the methodologies that I have to share. You are asking me questions where the answers are my methodology. Like I’m able to talk about that. This is something that when we work with our clients, we give them a really big questionnaire that’s talking… We ask them to tell us all about how they serve their clients and just tons of stuff. And then we use that information to write talking points that will really showcase their genius in the best way possible. So it all starts there. But then I think what people really miss out on is it follows up by having a connection with that podcast host. And starting that relationship after the interview has ended, after you stop recording, having a conversation about like, “How can I serve your audience? How can I be of value to you?” I think that that then formulates the snowball effect of a genuine relationship and showing up in a way for that podcast host where they know that you’re there for that relationship. Well, I think that some people would think that my answer would have to do all about the methodology and sharing about that methodology. The only real secret there is, when you’ve got to have one? And it’s going to be dependent on what you do. You’ve just got to know how to do what you do, and you’ve got to be willing to have a genuine pullback, all the curtains, talk about all the things. I mean, I tell podcast hosts when I come in, like, “I’m an open book. You can ask me whatever you want.” My mindset is that I don’t have any secrets. We live in a world where you could Google everything. Like me pretending if I don’t tell you you won’t know, who am I fooling really? So you’ve got to leverage on teeing up the conversation and being really genuine about having a goal of a relationship with the person that you’re in the room. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by TextExpander. It’s a new year and you can start off on the right foot by reclaiming your time. With TextExpander, you can save time by converting any text you type into keyboard shortcuts called snippets. Say goodbye to repetitive text entry, spelling and message errors, and trying to remember the right thing to say. With TextExpander, you can say the right thing in just a few keystrokes. Better than copy and paste better than scripts and templates, TextExpander snippets allow you to maximize your time by getting rid of the repetitive things you type while still customizing and personalizing your messages. TextExpander can be used in any platform, any app, anywhere you type. Take back your time and increase your productivity in the new year. And let me just say that snippets is not all it does. With advanced snippets, you can create fill-ins, pop up fields, and much more. You can even use JavaScript or AppleScript. I can type out full instructions for my podcast editor, Hi, Joel, in just a few keystrokes. Another one of my favorite and most used snippets is PPT. This will take whatever text I have on my keyboard and convert it to plain text so I’m no longer fighting formatting. Plus, if you have employees or contractors, you can use TextExpander to manage and share snippets with them so you all get it right every time. I’ve recently started sharing TextExpander snippets with my virtual assistant. This year, How I Built It is focusing on being productive while working from home. TextExpander is the perfect tool for that. Plus, they’re providing resources and blog posts to help you make the most of their tool and be productive. TextExpander is available on Mac OS, Windows, Chrome, iPhone, and iPad. If you’ve been curious about trying TextExpander or simple automation in general, now is the time. Listeners can get 20% off their first year. Just visit textexpander.com/podcast and let them know that I sent you. Joe: Actually, to your exact point, the exact point that we’re making, I listened to Smart Passive Income some time ago. This is Pat Flynn’s podcast. And he had a publicist on there named Brittney Lynn. And I listened to that episode and I was like, “Well…” I hired her. I hired her to help me figure out my messaging. And she sent me a huge questionnaire and I honestly had to think about it for a week. And I’m like, “What do I want out of whatever? What is my messaging?” Now I have those talking points, mostly around podcasting and a target audience and things like that. I think that’s super duper valuable. I think also something that you’re talking about that I had not thought of, or I honestly didn’t think the conversation would go in this direction, so this is great, is you’re really leaning on the relationship you’re forming with the podcast host. So this is not just a call to action, go to my website/joe to get the free download. It’s like, “I just spent an hour talking to this person. We get along well. How can we help each other?” It’s almost like you’re creating public networking meetings with a podcast host? Kristin: It’s like speed dating for business almost. And I say speed dating on purpose because the idea is that we get past all the fluff. We’re not like, “How are you?” And we did do some of this. I know that you have kids. You know that I have a kid. We did a little bit of that before the interview recorded. But it’s like, let’s get down to like the nitty-gritty of how we’re serving our people and the meaningful stuff about our business to see if like, “Hey, maybe I can support your audience. Maybe you can support my audience.” We’re getting into the really important details that are essential when you’re having a good business relationship with somebody. Joe: That’s super interesting. I’ll ask you this then. This sort of, we’ll say strategy, works pretty well for you because you are in the business of podcast booking. So obviously, you go on a podcast, I like you, I trust you, now you know what the show is about. So if you have a potential guest for me, I am more likely to accept that, right? Kristin: That’s true. That’s true. Joe: What about people who aren’t necessarily in the podcast space. Again, let’s say I make or I fix bicycles or whatever. I keep using that example but it’s like hyperlocal. So it doesn’t really work that well. But let’s just say I make websites. What… Kristin: That one works. Joe: Yeah, that one works. Kristin: I can work with that. Thank you. Joe: Just to give you a really hard exam. How good are you? Kristin: I know, right? Joe: So I make websites, I’m booking myself to go on podcast to talk about making websites, how do I nurture that relationship with a podcast host if they don’t have…” Well, I won’t qualify? How do I nurture that relationship with the podcast host? Kristin: What we have found is our sweet spot is entrepreneurs that serve other entrepreneurs. No, I’m not saying that there is not a viable strategy here beyond that. But for us, that is really our sweet spot, and where I can just talk all day long. Here’s the thing. When you are an entrepreneur and you’re getting in front of somebody who has the same business philosophies as you do, you can riff and get passionate about the same exact things, which I know that you and I can do that. What happens is my network becomes open to you and your network becomes open to me because we know that if this friend of ours or this peer of ours, somebody… Well, I’ll just say it this way. Somebody else that has interviewed me, another podcast host, we know that telling that other podcast hosts that they should meet you, Joe, like, well, they like me and they got passionate about the same things with me as you and I got passionate about. So if they need websites, you’re the guy. And you know somebody in your network that you have hit it off with, they hit it off with you and you and I have hit it off, so they’re gonna hit it off with me. So it’s easy to make those inner network connections. This is where I think that the strategy in my mind or what’s played out for me and our clients is so different than PR and marketing because we’re looking at… You’ve said it. We’re looking at the relationship and we’re looking at, you know, is this somebody that would be an easy person for me to tell my network, “You’ve got to hear about Joe.” But also what that does is… This is not the answer the question, but it just came to mind. Another thing that does is when I go and fulfill my obligation to tell my audience about this interview, because I do think that if you’re going to be a guest, you’ve got to be willing to talk about the fact that you’ve been on the interview, that is bare minimum commitment in my mind, it’s easy for me to write something genuine on LinkedIn, like, ” You’ve got to listen to podcasts with Joe. He and I have so many things in common. These are the things that we talked about.” That excitement that comes from sharing that episode is genuine because of the relationship I felt. I see this as really tapping into each other’s networks. Another example that I like to give is relationship building also opens doors to bigger podcasts, and bigger mediums, and all of those things that you want to look at when you’re doing traditional marketing and traditional PR. So, the example you talked about Smart Passive Income, you know, there’s tons of people that would love to be on Smart Passive Income and they’ve come to me and said, “Can you get me on Smart Passive Income.” And what I say is this. “Look, you don’t just knock on that door and say, ‘Hey, here I am. Can you please have me on your podcast?'” What you do though, is you look at other people that are in his circle, and get in with those people to see who can open those doors. So a great way to drive this home is you don’t go and send a cold pitch to the queen and expect to be invited to visit the queen. However, there are people that know the queen that maybe you can get in with them. And if you really liked them and you have some commonalities there, they might invite you to come meet the Queen someday. This is a long-term strategy and it doesn’t stop at just my network and your network. It ripples. It ripples if you really foster these things. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great analogy. And it’s proven too. A warm lead is more often likely to succeed than a cold call. If someone makes the introduction for me as opposed to me just saying, like, “Hey, I want to use your platform,” the warm lead is going to work out better more often than not. So we’ve talked about kind of tapping into the network through forming the relationship with the host, and the guest host relationship. Do you do anything to talk directly to the audience? If someone is listening now, they’re like, “Man, I really want Kristin to help me get on other people’s podcasts,” is there a strategy there for that as well? Kristin: On our end, if I’m asked what my call to action is, we do have that backend stuff in place. I will say though because I want to make sure everybody’s expectations are correct, I have found that not as many people wanted to come and get on my email list and take my DIY content. For me, that hasn’t been a huge… I don’t know, a huge success, I’ll say. Some people do end up on my email list but I think that… And maybe this is because my service is very done-for-you that the people who are attracted to a done for you service are interested in consuming your DIY content. Joe: Oh yeah. Kristin: So I think that you’ve got to be really creative about how your content is positioned if you’re a done-for-you service. I mean, you can touch on that DIY but you’ve got to be really concise about it. So for example, my opt-in is a 10 minute masterclass and I had a few clients review that and they were like, “I think it needs to be shorter.” It had been like 13 minutes and I chopped it down to 10 minutes. Because what I realized is, look, the people that want to hire me don’t want to hear me drone on and on. I’ve got to get to the point as quickly as possible. So I think you’ve got to think about that back end offer a little bit. And I will just say my experience has been that, that has not been the most profitable. So, like say 100 people end up on my email list. I am getting more value from meeting two people in the podcast host network than I am from those 100 people that got on my email list. And heck, those 100 people took a whole lot more work. Because that’s the kind of work that you’re like sitting behind your computer trying to… You know, you’re writing the content. For me, that’s harder. Joe: You’re building up. Kristin: Exactly. I would rather meet another podcast host or be invited to speak inside somebody’s paid mastermind or group coaching program. For me, those have gotten just greater impact because the people that want to say yes are quicker yeses, and I don’t have to nurture them as much. So I don’t know. Yeah, you can nurture but it’s not my favorite strategy. Joe: I think that’s a very interesting perspective. Because, again, longtime listeners of the show will know, I’m like, “Your call to action if you have your own podcast or whatever, build your email list, build your email list.” This is from a more product-centric approach for me. I sell $99 courses or whatever. I sell a $9 a month membership or whatever. So the nurturing and the adding value is a bit more important for me. Also, those people are DIYers. So my DIY opt-in is going to work a little better. But for the done-for-you service, I think that’s a really interesting and valuable perspective. Perhaps we’ll dig into that a little bit more in the members show. If you are not a member by the way, you can go to buildsomething.club to sign up. It’s just fantastic. It’s a hoot there. Before we get into tips for the listeners, I am distracted by something in your background. Is that a cigar box? Kristin: It is. It is. My husband and I found a bunch of cigar boxes in a thrift store. I don’t know, five-plus years ago, and I have them sprinkled throughout my house because they’re really great storage boxes, and they’re just kind of industrial and fun. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. They smell nice. I’m a cigar smoker myself. So I saw the box and I was like, “I wonder.” Kristin: Oh, that’s interesting. Joe: Yeah. Fantastic. I don’t have any empty boxes right now, but next time I have some I’ll let you know. Kristin: I mean, they’re perfect for storing things. They look cool in your house. I think so. Joe: Yes, they do. Yeah, absolutely. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by Mindsize. Look, it’s super important for stores to have an online presence these days. If customers can’t buy online, they might not buy at all. And while doing eCommerce fast has gotten easier, doing eCommerce right still has its considerable challenges. That’s where Mindsize comes in. They are a full service digital agency that focuses on WordPress and WooCommerce development. But that’s not all. They work with Shopify, big commerce, and more. And they’ll work with you to create the perfect strategy and website for your business. Already have an eCommerce site and want to make sure it’s up and running in tip-top shape? Their flat-rate site audit is exactly what you need. Over the course of two weeks, they’ll dive into every aspect of your site and deliver a prioritized list of actionable recommendations to make your site even better. That means more sales and engagement for you and your store. Or if you’re a freelancer or agency who feels in over your head or with an eCommerce build, their agency support plan is built specifically for you. There were a few times in my career where I really could have used that. They’ll take a high stress situation and help you relax while still delivering for your client. So check out Mindsize over at mindsize.com today. They will help you make more money, whether you need an eCommerce store, whether you need to improve your current eCommerce store, or if you build eCommerce stores for others. That’s mindsize.com. Thanks so much to Mindsize for supporting the show. Joe: As we get to the end of this conversation, what are some tips for the listeners that you have? I think we talked a bit about how to get on people’s shows and the things that you should think about before you go on people’s shows. Maybe if they’re starting from square one, what’s one or two things that they should do to make sure they have an efficient podcast guesting experience? Kristin: Talking to this audience, the person that’s never done it before, one of the biggest apprehensions that I hear is, “Am I ready? I’m nervous. When I show up, is it going to be a good episode? It’s gonna get published and I don’t know who’s gonna hear it.” There’s some of those concerns that come with first time guesting. And I know that people that ultimately are going to be fantastic guests still have those apprehensions. I did. So I can totally relate to that. So I want to offer this piece of advice that I feel not a lot of people take into consideration. And that is that there’s still a ton of value in being featured on a brand new podcast. I talked to somebody recently, a podcaster, I was interviewed by her and she told me that she actually likes to be in that first episode because when somebody finds a new podcast that they like, they go way back to the beginning and they begin bingeing it. So maybe that doesn’t help prove by point that you should go after a smaller podcast because the barriers are lower, because I just talked about how everybody’s going to hear it. But the strategy for me has been, look, if somebody is serious enough about their business to decide to start a podcast, that’s a serious entrepreneur right there. You can speak to the fact that building a podcast, it is not a small logistical commitment. It is a big deal to decide that you’re going to be a podcast host. So if you are feeling apprehensive, but want to kind of test the waters, get out there a little bit, I would say there’s tons of Facebook groups, tons of communities of people learning how to launch their podcast. Get in with those people. I think that the barriers might feel a little bit lower because they’re not going to be expecting as much from you because they’re just starting out. You can kind of be beginners together a little bit. But I would also say with that, like, here’s the reality. This is a conversation. Joe, you’re asking me questions, and I’m answering them with things that I can just talk about off the top of my head. I’m not over-preparing for episodes. If you were to ask me things… “Well, here we go.” If you had gone with that bicycle example, I would have said, “You know, Joe, I would love to tell you how I’m smart enough to figure that one out but I don’t know.” Being okay with saying that and realizing like, “I know what I know really stinking well but that doesn’t mean that I know everything. And I’m okay with that.” So it’s just a conversation. Be true to who you are, talk about what you know, and be honest about the things that you don’t know or maybe even your failures. Some of those things are really inspiring as well. Joe: I agree wholeheartedly actually. One of the reasons that this show did so well in the beginning was because we did talk about failures a lot. And I think that makes starting a business maybe less intimidating, right? Because you see the gold medalist win the gold medal at the Olympics but you don’t see the years it took for them to train and fail and break their leg or whatever. You don’t see the struggle as often as the success. And I think that that’s important. That’s great. So get in with people who are learning how to podcast. Remember, it’s a conversation. I think that’s super important. Because some people want me to send them exactly the questions I’m going to ask ahead of time, and I’m always happy to oblige. But honestly, I genuinely don’t because I did a little background research on my guests, I know what you’d like to talk about and I mean, frankly, I’m gonna have any conversation. I talk a lot. I’m an extrovert, I’m from New York, and I’m Italian. So we talk a lot. So I’m most likely going to ask you questions that you’re prepared to answer anyway. I love that. I think that’s fantastic. Then, before we go, I do need to ask you my favorite question, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us? Kristin: Gosh, I’m trying to think of the best way to answer that. The trade secrets. Yes, I do have one. I do have one. So when you are pitching for yourself and you want to find podcast hosts that are in alignment with what you talk about, here’s a really cool insider secret. Find somebody who has done a podcast tour who has a message that’s complimentary to yours. I have a very easy example. I’m all about work less, make more. I offer a done for you service. So this is for people that are not interested in DIY, they’re cool with delegation and spending a little bit more to shortcut things. You know who talks about work less, make more? James Schramko who has a really great podcast and he has been a guest on a lot of other people’s podcasts. So what you can do is you look at that influencer, so James is my influencer, you find all the places that he has previously been featured. And guess what? There’s a gold mine of people that would probably be a good fit for you. Joe: What? That is an incredible… That’s a good trade secret. That’s legit. I love that. Like I said, we’ll talk a little bit more about kind of building your pitch and figuring out your messaging and things like that in the show after the show, the membership show. But for now, Kristin, this has been fantastic. If people want to learn more about you, where can they find you? Kristin: I personally hang out on LinkedIn. And because my last name is spelled with two A’s, got a unique spelling there, when you search me on LinkedIn, I’m the only one that shows up. Kristin Molenaar. So if you’re a podcast host, and you’re looking for guests, I mean, that’s not our paid service but we would be happy to hook you up with some people that have got their act together. Joe: Awesome. Kristin: And then if you’re interested in our services and just want to check that out, our website is yesbossva.com. And that has our 10-minute masterclass that I just briefly talked about here. Joe: Excellent. I will link to all of that and more over at the show notes. You can find those at howibuilt.it/207. Kristin, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Kristin: This was so much fun. Thanks for having me. Joe: Yes. And thank you to our sponsors, TextExpander, Restrict Content Pro, and Mindsize. Thank you, of course, for listening. And until next time, get out there and build something. Sponsored by:Mindsize: Your WooCommerce Partner Restrict Content Pro: Launch your membership site TextExpander: Get 20% off your first year by visiting the this link. Source

On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we speak with Dillon Carter about his path to launching a wholesale CRM, why he pivoted to a slighted different business model, and how his company helps their clients succeed. Dillon Carter is one of the founders of Aura, a wholesale CRM that helps you with repricing, managing wholesale suppliers, and growing your Amazon business. Tune in to hear our interesting discussion!   Topics:  How he floundered before finding his true passion. Launching a wholesale-based CRM software, before pivoting into repricing software. Explaining wholesale. Working with an antiquated business model. What happens when everyone is using Aura at the same time. How Aura works.   Resources:  Aura Dillon Carter's Website Quiet Light   Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast sponsored by Quiet Light Brokerage, oddly enough. Everybody here is an entrepreneur. We've all built, bought, and sold our own online businesses. I sold my last e-commerce business in 2010. Things have changed a little bit since then. We've got to Dillon Carter on the podcast today. Dillon is one of those changes. He was; well, let's see, 2010, you were still in high school back then, weren't you? Dillon: I graduated in 2010, yeah. Joe: That makes me an old guy or you very good at what you do at such a young age. Probably just that, I'm going to call at Syed Balkhi right now. Syed I think might have just turned 30 years old and referred a client over to me so I was just chatting with him earlier today. Incredibly impressive at a young age and I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile, I'm looking at Vendrive, I'm looking at Aura Repricing and, man, you've got a lot going on in your life. Can you help people that are listening, who you are and what you do and summarize or give more detail to that summary that I just gave? Dillon: Sure. So I started out graduating high school not knowing what in the world I wanted to do, like most entrepreneurs. So, I kind of floundered for about four to five years, just testing a bunch of different things. I found myself being a personal trainer, working ridiculous hours and realizing I did not like a service based business because that's kind of difficult to scale. I realized okay, physical products is something that could theoretically scale in my mind at that time so I started playing around with the Amazon FBA model. Like most people, you get started with retail or online arbitrage, right? Low capital requirement, you could kind of test the waters. I did that and eventually me and the GM of the gym I was training at did not see eye to eye so I decided, you know what, let's go ahead and put myself in a corner and make it work. And so, eventually I decided retail arbitrage, although was better than being able to scale my time so I could not scale in the way that I wanted the business to. So like most FBA sellers, I decided to either go the wholesale or the private label route. I chose wholesale. It made a little bit more sense to me; low capital requirement, I could start paying the bills immediately because it was certainly an issue that I was faced with. I went that route and really spent a handful of years just crafting what wholesale meant to me, how I approached it. At the same time, I decided to go back to school full time for college. So it was one of those lingering aspects of my life where I was like do I really want to be that statistic where you took a few semesters, you kind of dropped out, and never went back. I'm like, no, I'm tripling down on my life at this point, no holds barred, and so that's what I did. And then eventually I met my co-founder, James. We eventually launched www.Vendrive.com, which is wholesale-based CRM software and then pivoted actually funny enough into repricing software. And that's our primary focus at the moment. So I've kind of traversed this world in a few different ways. I launched a podcast or two here and there. I shared all the knowledge that I've gained along the way and the podcast and blog posts and our Facebook group I mean, really just somewhat built an audience just teaching everything for free and I learned a lot from that. It's been a long journey, so to speak, but I feel like I'm just getting started. Joe: That's the way to do it. You help, help, and help some more. Give it all for free and make some friends along the way. It's amazing what you do when you help others, how it comes back to help your own business. In fact, we had Steven Pope on our podcast. I think he's www.MyAmazonGuy.com and so did you and he connected the two of us together. Strangely enough, I told you at the beginning of this call or before we hit record, that I sent a message out to the team that we just don't have enough wholesale guys; men, women, people, individuals, entrepreneurs on the podcast, because we have not historically sold a ton of wholesale businesses. But it's a funny thing, I come from the private label world. I didn't sell on Amazon. When I sold my e-commerce business it really wasn't much focused on Amazon. I did after that, but it was always my own products, always private label and some people look down on wholesale. At this point in my career; not that I'm going to change what I do, but if I were, I might look at wholesale before I look at private label. I might look at an agency before I make a private label. I might do a lot of different things. I might even look at content. But why don't you, for the sake of those that are listening, that are not as versed in it as you are define what wholesale is versus private label and how it works? Dillon: Sure. Wholesale is a very antiquated business model and I don't say that in a negative tone. What I mean by that is you are buying low and you are selling higher. You're literally finding listings on Amazon that are already doing well and you are doing what we call reverse sourcing. So you're finding listings already doing well, finding those brands, those products, and then you are going to the brand to open a wholesale account to purchase in bulk like pallets and stuff like that. It's actually very straightforward. There's nothing crazy to it. The difference here because you made a good point that a lot of people don't view the wholesale business model as a sexy business model. That's not your quote but that's kind of what I hear and you hear it a lot. And I think the reason why you have not sold a whole lot of wholesale Amazon business models is because the multiples are not that great. So, when I went back to school, I actually went to be finance major and so my focus was actually M&A. So doing a lot of valuations, some discounted cash flows, kind of nerdy stuff. But when you look at it, those businesses are easy to replicate. There's not a lot that you're really protecting, right? There's not a lot that I can really build up and get a decent multiple on. And so, I think they're very great in the sense of I can get cash flow positive within 30 days if you kind of know what you're doing and you're being serious about it. Right. Whereas private label is going to take a little bit more time. That's an investment for the future. I view a wholesale business model as a cash flow business where private label is more something you're looking to expand the value of your equity over a long period of time and potentially exit and so, it depends on what you're optimizing for. Joe: There's definitely a difference between the two, because the private label businesses that are growing like crazy, those folks are not taking a whole lot of money out of the business. They're constantly putting it back into inventory to try to keep up. But you said you said sourcing by looking out in the marketplace; Amazon, if that's what we're talking about, to see what other people are selling and then sourcing the product from the brand owner. So, we're talking about brands that have multiple sellers on Amazon in this particular case and you are then going to compete against the other sellers on Amazon as well, correct? Dillon: That's correct. Absolutely. Joe: All right, that doesn't sound very attractive. How do you compete against the others? How do you do a better job on your listings and your ratings and reviews and your pricing and things of this nature? Dillon: This is where it becomes an antiquated business model, in my opinion. And again, not in a negative tone where it comes down to relationships. So, a lot of people are jumping into the Amazon space want that lifestyle business, right. What a lot of people kind of project as this is what it's like to sell on Amazon. The reality of it is it's a lot of phone calls. It's a lot of old school relationship building. It's understanding that… Joe: We all have to do that. Dillon: I know right. Joe: It's now like rocket science. Yeah, it sounds much simpler than trying to figure out the thickness of a corrugated box that you're going to import from China. Dillon: 100%. I've said for the past three or four years that wholesale is simple, not easy. It's simple enough. I mean, we can sketch the entire business model on a napkin, and I've done that. It's not easy because it's a lot more work. Now, that's not a bad thing, right? This is not sending a bunch of emails to manufacturers in China and playing that kind of game. This is actually jumping on the phone and having a real conversation with somebody. What's different about wholesale and why it's uncomfortable for a lot of people is that you are essentially doing a sales job; you are calling a brand to sell them on allowing you to give them your money. It's a bit backwards, right? But that's kind of what it is. And so a lot of people get stuck where they jump into these relationships and they're trying to get these accounts and they're like I keep getting denied. Why won't they take my money? I'm trying to give them money. And what a lot of people have to learn, first and foremost, is the value add that you are bringing to the table is not your money, it's the relationship. What else can you do for that brand? Because what you're not doing is necessarily just jumping on the listing and taking another slice of the pie. You're strategically looking to increase the sales volume here, right? You're looking at running PPC campaigns, you're looking at listing optimization, and you're looking at how can I help my supplier negate other sellers. I keep going below minimum advertised price so, mat price. You're looking at this as a very strategic business model if you're doing it correctly and I think a lot of people view it too simplistically. And again, it is simple, but when you approach it from an operation standpoint as too simple, I think you negate the requirements that enable you to be successful. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah, they're looking at the wrong things. Dillon: 100%. Joe: They're not looking at the most important thing, which is the relationship. With wholesale accounts, with wholesale clients, you've had friends; I mean, you're in the circles, people that you work with. How many wholesale brand relationships do they have or have to have; sorry, I know this is an unanswerable question with accuracy, in order to really make a good living out of it? Dillon: Sure. If you want to replace a job, the way I source, and the criteria I look for purchasing inventory, which is not super complex by any stretch of the imagination, 10 to 12 SKUs is pretty solid. I think you can get to a point where you're actually replacing job income and at least paying the bills. The cool thing about; so you have the spectrum, right, where private label is going to have like a handful; like a small amount of SKUs, in my opinion. One to two, obviously, you're trying to grow that over time, but if you look at the average it's probably a little bit less. Then on the other end of that spectrum, you have like retail and online arbitrage where it's like thousands upon thousands of SKUs. Wholesale is kind of somewhere in the middle, but leaning more towards the private label route. So a handful of great relationships is enough. You don't need to have 30 plus relationships. I think that's where you get really, really big but you don't really need that. You could do a quarter million in revenue with six to seven SKUs if they're the right kind of SKUs because it is repeatable and scalable. Joe: And what are your margins on that? What's left over for you at the end of the day, if you're doing a quarter million in revenue? Because if it's a private label, that's kind of doing a quarter million in revenue, there's not a lot left over. I guess maybe upwards of 50,000 maybe. But they're taking that money and they're putting it right back in inventory so there's not a lot of cash flow in that situation. Dillon: Yeah, it can vary. I've seen people have some pretty high margins. I've seen people take really, really slim margins. I look for at least 30% in gross margin. Obviously, the business expenses that's kind of going to be situational. But if I could do 30% outside of the business expenses, that's pretty good in my opinion. I think it's scalable. Joe: This is after Amazon fees. Dillon: That's correct. Joe: Okay, that's pretty good. That's pretty solid, actually. What about exclusivity? At what point do you get to be exclusive? Because in my view, that's going to make the business more sellable and have value. So, you're not only building cash flow but you're also building equity. Obviously you got to do better than everybody else and be really important to that relationship. Is that it? Dillon: For the most part, yeah. What's funny is it is that relationship and it's understanding that it just takes time; like any great relationship, it just takes time. So a lot of sellers jump in and say, hey, I just got this account, how do I get exclusive? You wait. You do a great job, you become their biggest buyer, you work with them, you add more value than just your money, and then you start to have that conversation over time. I had a friend, she started her Amazon business, it was doing well, and she followed up every two weeks for a year just to get an account. And not just like, hey, how's everything going? These are in-depth emails of, hey, I noticed this on your listing here's what I would recommend you do and gave them all of that knowledge. And eventually they let you know that that's a lot of work, what would it take for you to do that for us? Give me the account and I want exclusive rights. They go, you know what, let's test it for two weeks and if it if it pans out, we'll absolutely give you the exclusive rights. And she's got it now. Joe: Excellent. Yeah, I know that's the trick. Just again, help them. It is a ton of work so give it all the way and then they realize I really do understand the value of having you do it for me. Let's talk about competing on Amazon for the buy box and what Aura Repricing does because it's so very different than what most people have heard on this podcast because most people are content owners, SaaS owners, private label brand owners. They're not wholesale. Dillon: Yeah, so roughly 82% of organic sales come via the buy box. So that buy box is just that where you go as a consumer and hit one click purchase. That's what we call the buy box. When you're competing with other sellers on the same listing, you're not trying to optimize your listing to beat the other listings. That goes out the door. Now, it's about value. In terms of your price it obviously comes down to your competitive advantage in terms of getting cost lower from your supplier hence relationships matter. It comes down to seller feedback a lot of the times. So what we're having to do is stay competitively priced 24/7. And by the way, these things are changing every few seconds. Private label, you're used to set the price and maybe every now and then we'll change it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: No, 24/7 here and so some of our larger users that have a few hundred thousand SKUs that are actively repricing, we're doing tens of thousands of price changes per second just for them. So, what we're having to do is say you can't do it yourself, it doesn't scale so let's hand that over to a computer with an algorithm with a set of rules that can say, you know what, the price just changed let's react to that as quickly as possible. And if doing so, we increased the amount of time you're in the buy box, which increases the amount of sales you get. Joe: What happens if you've got three products in the buy box, they're all the same brand, and two out of the three are using Aura Repricing? Dillon: Yes, we get this question a lot; what if everybody's using Aura at the same time? At that point, it comes down to two major things. One, your strategy because you have some control over that. Some people are willing to be more aggressive than others. And then number two, what's really more important, in my opinion, is your cost. A lot of sellers make the assumption that we got the same costs. I know what I paid for so therefore, I theoretically know what you paid for it. That's not true. I could have lower cost because I have a better relationship or I have more capital to play with. So, I'm purchasing in larger quantities, in which case I'm getting quantity breaks on my cost, in which case I can be more aggressive in my price. So, it comes down to those major two things. Joe: Okay, what else can people that are a wholesaler do to improve their rankings, listings, and so on and so forth on Amazon? Dillon: Yeah, one of the things we've seen; forecasting with wholesale is very important, just like it is with private label. However, it's a little bit different. So, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of private label people are purchasing like three months' worth of inventory because you have a lead-time for manufacturing. For us, it's like every two to four weeks we're placing restock orders. So, we're trying to get dense from when the capital goes out of the business to when it comes back with profits as small as possible. Joe: So, it's two to four weeks if you just average to three I mean that's a quarter of the working capital that you need for a private label business. Dillon: 100%. So, we're looking at stuff like that. What's important there was a lot of forecasting won't factor in regional distribution. And what I mean by that is a lot of times you can take a SKU that you're selling on and you have repeat sales and let's say you're moving a hundred units per month like clockwork. You testing increasing that to 200 can actually have a larger distribution in terms of where your SKUs are in the country and now you're starting to get access to what's called a regional buy box and you actually start to see a little bit more sales from that. I didn't believe it at first and then I tested it with a few selling friends, and sure enough, they increased sales by just doing that. So you don't have just the one global buy box, although that's what we're able to focus on as developers. You also have a regional buy box. Joe: And Aura Repricing can have an impact on that? Dillon: That's correct. That comes basically down to where is your inventory today, like right now. Joe: And how do you control that again with Amazon? Dillon: Increased inventory. Joe: Just spend more money and have more inventory and then you're going to… Dillon: Yeah, it's a test for sure. Joe: And you can do that over time, obviously, if you have personal overhead. Dillon: Absolutely. Joe: Okay, tell me about Aura Repricing and when did you launch it? To me, honestly, the development of this must have been crazy. I mean, you did finance and M&A; is your business partner a coder or a developer? Dillon: Yeah, so me and my co-founder, James, met actually via Instagram. So, we were both wholesale sellers, separate of each other and we just started to meet up once a week via Skype back in the day and just, hey, what's going on? What's new? He was kind of helping me scale my business because his was already at seven. Mine was at six figures so he was helping me understand some cash flow stuff that I needed to learn. And eventually he was like, hey, by the way, I'm at UMass and I am an engineering student. I'm already starting to work on some side projects. Do you want to partner up? And that's when we started to launch Vendrive. So, Aura, the beta took roughly eight to nine months of him by himself, because I'm not an engineer. I'm not a coder. I can script some stuff and that's about it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: So that was him pretty much working 80, 90 hour weeks for eight to nine months, just grinding it out and we got the beta up. We tested with 20 to 30 users just from day one just to get that feedback loop going. Launched my winter break between semesters in December of 2018 and then we launched that and I had 50 users paying and we just started a feedback loop and scaling from there. Joe: And you both finished college? Dillon: We did. Yeah, we both finished college at the same time and now we're actually; we were fully remote. I was in Florida, now we're in Boston and we have our first like large office which you can see back here. We have the walls painted and the whiteboard is up, and we're actually hiring three engineers in the next month or two. Joe: Very cool. That's a great success story, man. Dillon: Yeah, thanks. Joe: I know that you said he was in college and you were in college at same time but developing it in college; doing seven figures in revenue while in college is pretty impressive. So let's say he's doing a million, he's doing maybe 300,000 in cash flow, in profit, even if you divide by two while a student in college, that's pretty damn impressive. Dillon: It's not bad. Yeah, it's definitely not bad. That's the thing about wholesale is I tell people, it can be at whatever scale you want. I think it's difficult to really take a private label brand and just be like, oh, I just kind of want to make a little extra cash. When I started mine again, I went back to school, and I was like if this thing just pay my bills and allows me to focus on school full time and get through that and not take six years to get through, it's kind of a solid win. And to be honest, that's kind of where I got it and I was happy with that. And then once I graduated, it's like cool now, we can go full force. And really I did like two semesters before because Aura started to really scale and outpace itself, which was awesome. But yeah, I think it's cool thing. Joe: Let's get back to the repricing part, because if I'm the wholesale owner, how am I going to work with Aura and Aura Repricing to determine how low it goes? Is this simply a matter of math and numbers and what my relationship is; how does it work? Dillon: So you have two major ways of setting a min max. We always require a minimum and a maximum price. This is the range of which Aura is allowed to play within because we don't want to go too low and not too high and all that good stuff. You can manually set that. Some people have their own formulas, some people just take current buy box price and reduce that by 30%. What I typically recommend is the second option, which is an automated option. So, you can set that based on an ROI. We'll actually import your cost that you give us or you're using a tool like Inventory Lab to store that. So, we'll import those and you'll say a minimum I want 20% ROI. What we'll do is we'll factor in your cost and then the Amazon fees, obviously factoring in that 20% ROI and say, okay, here's your calculated min price. We'll automatically set that for all your SKUs. So we create different strategies and those strategies can be assigned to a group of SKUs, one SKU, your entire account; it's really up to you. And then however you want to set those min max prices, you can definitely do that. Joe: That's pretty impressive. Dillon: Yeah. Joe: When it comes to wholesale, again, I'm a little ignorant on it, because it's probably a well-known brand; I would assume or a well enough known brand are people searching for the brand name and therefore there's not as much sponsored ads or are people doing sponsored advertising as well? Dillon: This is what's interesting, I know ads are very prominent and expensive for private label. What's interesting is when I started testing paid ads on wholesale, they were actually very cheap. And for whatever reason, the brands themselves do not seem to be doing that on Amazon. They don't. They just let the sales happen and they don't progress with it, period. The opportunity is that it's less competitive because from my personal experience, what I've done is I've created ads targeting the brand name and the product name and not the type of product. So the proverbial garlic fresh, right. Joe:  [Inaudible 00:22:36.5]. Dillon: Yeah, but we're going to do as an example, Nike, blah, blah, blah. When you're doing that they're super cheap and very scalable. I had a product that retailed for $329.95, it was costing me an additional $5 per sale via paid ads, and they're already doing 30 to 40 units per month organically. But that netted me $55 net profit so minus the $5 we're still doing 50 bucks. So I'm able to increase my volume. I'm trading five bucks for 50 bucks at this point. Joe: Sure. Dillon:  [inaudible 00:23:11.3] oh, that's expensive, five bucks. I'm like, not really when you do the math on it. Joe: Absolutely, you're paying five bucks and you're getting 50 bucks back. That's a good return. Dillon: Yeah, I'm not even very good at it. That's the important part. Joe: Are you doing any video ads; do you have the options to do whatever you want or can you not do video ads for wholesale? Dillon: I've yet to see any restrictions on that. I haven't done the video ads. There's this weird dichotomy where there's some things you should be willing to do for your brands and then there are some things that are just going to cost too much. It's very ROI driven. So, some brands are going to do that themselves and that's going to help you organically. Some sellers, if you have the right exclusive agreement, it can make sense. It just comes down to the math where it really will... Joe: We just had Judson Morgan on from www.Butter.la and he talked everybody through how to do videos from your iPhone or a Pixel, and it's not a lot of dough. An unboxing, if you will. You're making it natural and normal and he talked about the lighting and all that stuff. That's what I'm talking about. He talked about the bump in conversion rate with videos, either video ads or videos in your listings. I know that with private label, they get six or seven; maybe six to eight images that they're allowed to have and one of them can be video. Normally it's pushed to the very end. Do you do that with wholesale as well, the video, the unboxing, and things of that nature? Dillon: You do to a certain degree. So, part of the value add to the brand, again, is not just your capital. It's looking at where the listing itself can be optimized. A lot of sellers are hesitant to do that stuff because all that work is not just coming back to you. It's coming back to all the other sellers. And so that's where it gets kind of interesting, where there's some growth hacks, so to speak, that are only going to come back to you as the seller. So you're not really increasing competition's volume as well. I'm of the opinion if it raises all boats, I'm still probably willing to do it because I'm still getting a positive ROI on that it just depends on the person. So, I'm a huge fan of a growth strategy that I kind of created actually from Amazon affiliate sites. So, I was looking at different brokers. I'm just looking at what's for sale in the Amazon space. I'd like to keep a look at multiples and what's being sold. I was like, you know what, these Amazon affiliate sites are genius. They're there to make money and move inventory because that's when they get paid. So then I said, well, what happens when I start to reach out to these site owners and say, you know what, I sell a grill thermometer, you have a bestbarbecue.com Amazon affiliate site, what happens when I get you to replace your $200 grill thermometer with my $329 one, does that actually increase sales? And if we can structure the URL correctly, all of the sales are coming straight to me, not just anybody who happens to be in the buy box at the moment. It turns out you can. So, there's some more strategy there in terms of growth but that's where you have to really think through the relationship you have. If it's a very short term seasonal relationship, I may not be willing to go to that extent because it is a lot of work. However, if it's a brand that I want to work with for a long period of time, that's different. And I've always told people to approach it that way. If I don't in my mind think that I can work with a brand for the next 12 plus months, I really don't see the point in it. I'm not opportunistic in the way I approach wholesale. Joe: You're blowing my mind that you're 28 years old, I got to tell you that. Dillon: I appreciate it. Thank you. Joe: All right. So, Aura Repricing, anybody that does any wholesale got to go to Aura Repricing. Check it out and see what Aura repricing could do for them. Let's talk also about the two podcasts; I think you've got two podcasts or is it one? Anything else you want people to know about you and things of that nature before we wrap it up here? Dillon: Sure. So, I kind of got sick of the $3,000 courses. I'm not anti-course by any stretch of the imagination. Joe: We just launched one for $3,000. Dillon: So, I decided I was going to share everything that I knew, which is I'm not an expert in my opinion, but I know some stuff and so I'm willing to share everything that I do know. So if you go to www.Vendrive.com/blog, I've pretty much written some crazy in-depth articles on wholesale in terms of overcoming objections with suppliers, the cash flow management of it; all the fun nitty-gritty stuff. And of course, Wholesale Made Easy, which is the podcast. I'm not running that active anymore. That was structured to be like an evergreen podcast where it's not short-term tactics. It's foundational stuff like we're talking about here that if you listen to it a year from now, it's still going to apply. We do have the new podcast called Welcome to Growth, which is me and my co-host, Jonathan. It's way more casual and it's more just me and him going back and forth every Thursday on different topics. Joe: That's where I heard your first. I'm like I like these guys, they don't have any scripts at all. It's perfect for me. Dillon: We literally show up that morning. We might text the night before and say, hey, here's three topics that I would like to talk about. We'll pick one and just riff on it for about an hour. Joe: Yeah, it's awesome and you're a wealth of knowledge. We need to talk more about wholesale again someday. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Dillon: Yeah, thanks for having me.

On today's episode, we speak with Justin Christianson, the Co-Founder and President of Conversion Fanatics. Conversion Fanatics helps businesses find additional revenue through conversion optimization strategies. Tune in to hear us discuss exactly what conversion optimization is and Justin's specific approach to helping companies increase their revenue.   Topics: Justin's work history. Explaining “conversion optimization”. Justin's favorite tools. Why directing traffic back to your homepage can make a huge difference. At what point the strategy goes beyond the customer's website. The importance of incremental adjustments. Keeping it simple. What is helping him through 2020.   Resources: Conversion Fanatics Justin's Social Media Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast. As you know, we are online business brokers, a crew that has been there, done that. We help people sell their SaaS, content, FBA, e-commerce businesses and everybody's got a crazy amount of experience. Everybody's built, bought, and sold their own online business. Brad bootstrapped a company from 10 employees to 129 with three men ownership. He also acquired 26 companies or content sites in a six-year period and sold them to a private equity firm. Jason raised 10 million dollars in venture capital money and built a company. Amanda launched an affiliate business as a hobby, and it became the top four in affiliate in four months. Brian founded the world's first internet-based due diligence firm. There's a whole other crew; the rest of the team they've all got a ton of experience like that and now they're all advisors, brokers here in the Quiet Light team. I'm probably the least impressive of the crew. However, in the last eight years, I've sold close to 100 million in e-commerce transactions, probably at an average of about 1.1, 1.2 million dollars at a time. And we help first, that's the most important thing. We take that experience that we have and we help people around us, whether you are buyers that are listening or sellers. And we bring people on to the podcast like Justin Christianson so that he can help as well. Justin, from Conversion Fanatics and I'm stumbling on that a little bit. Justin, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Justin: Hey, thanks for having me. Joe: One of the things that we don't do is read scripts as you can tell by stuttering through that but we also don't give fancy backgrounds on people. We love to hear it from them; what their story is and what their background is so could you introduce yourself to the audience here? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the digital marketing online world; I think this is year 19 for me. I started in my early 20s. I kind of moved up the ranks through affiliate marketing and lead generation and then became partners on a company and we exploded that company. I was actually the number one affiliate for it. We exploded it and grew it like… Joe: Just for the record, three ahead of Amanda. There's no question. She was four you were number one. Okay, I'm busting on Amanda right now, even though she doesn't listen to our own podcast. Continue. Justin: Yeah, we grew it like 500% in one year. We grew it almost 150 the next year. I sold it back to my business partners about; I guess it's been about 10 years, which is my time to leave. I started a private consultancy. I'm kind of teaching the implementation and optimization side of things. And then basically out of demand, I partnered up with my longtime friend Manish, who is my now business partner, and we founded what became Conversion Fanatics about six and a half years ago. Since then I've helped several hundred businesses. I think we calculated somewhere close to an additional hundred million in additional revenue for them through our conversion optimization strategies. Joe: Incredible. Justin: We just keep working every single day to be a little bit better and I'm fortunate enough to help some of the top companies in the world. Joe: And I know a few of them. I know a few of the folks that you worked with through Blue Ribbon Mastermind, our friend Ezra Firestone, and they speak very highly of you. And you actually helped Mark here at Quiet Light with his business Catholic Singles. Why don't you tell us though; I know the definition of it and I'm going to give a short story here afterwards but what is conversion optimization? Justin: Conversion optimization is really the understanding; well, I'm going to back up because conversion optimization, when you first say that, people often say, well, it's split testing. Well, split testing is just the vehicle that we use to prove or disprove whether we're right or not. But conversion optimization in and of itself is understanding the behaviors of the visitor; understanding their wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and where the key friction points are in an online journey and then doing what we can to answer the question why certain things are happening in that journey and then we split test to make sure we're right or not. So really, it just comes down to reading data and then executing on the ideas of why we think that data is telling us what it's telling us. Joe: And it's not just split testing, written content, or split testing images or videos or emails. It's a combination of all of the above, I would think. Justin: Yeah, we focus primarily on-site or on the ad side, but we're primarily; I would say 95% of our business is on-site, user experience, user interface kind of optimization. So, what happens on the website after they come from that ad and what can we do to make that experience better for those visitors and help those brands excel which will also lift up many other metrics in the business as well. Joe: So it's really perfect for the content, e-commerce owner, SaaS owner, and maybe the FBA owners that are trying to expand beyond Amazon and get some traction in their Shopify store or whatever store they might be using. Justin: Yeah. Joe: One of the things I have to say, I didn't understand what split testing was back in the day. I sold my e-commerce site through Quiet Light back in 2010. Mark, actually, Jason here was my broker at the time. I knew everything. I understood exactly what my customer wanted more than they did and kept doing these campaigns and putting them out there and putting out there, putting it out there. Finally, my web developer said, Joe, don't be an ass. Try split testing. I'm like, but this is right. And he's like, let's test it. Without a doubt every new campaign that I tested that I knew which one was going to win, I was dead wrong. And it would result in like 3% to 5% conversion rate differences and at a $200 or $300 transaction, that's a tremendous difference, isn't it? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we'll see; I'm looking at a test right now, it's like a 15% swing. Joe: Holy cow. Justin: I've got one running right now that's almost a triple-digit swing in terms of percentage gain. Joe: When you look at a client that let's say they're selling a physical product, are you looking first at their website to try to help speed up the website and improve it? What approach do you take with new clients? And I know they're all different, but give me an example of one. Justin: Well, really, I take the same approach with all of them, because my philosophy on that is at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. It doesn't matter what we're selling, they've all got wants, needs, buying habits, and decisions and pains and pleasure points and all of those things that go into that. So, I just try to understand and put myself in the shoes of that visitor. I look at the data and say okay, I'll look at their analytics and say, well, they're female aged 35 to 44, primarily they're shopping on mobile, they're falling off on this part of the website. And then I just put myself in the journey like what's stopping; what are the 10 things on this page that could potentially stop a visitor from going through the next step? What isn't clear? What can I add or remove to alleviate those friction points? And really what I'm trying to understand is what on that page holds the most weight in the eyes of the visitors? Because at the end of the day, you said you were proven wrong on a bunch of times. You were assuming something was going to happen. I've ran thousands of marketing split tests. I've strived for just pulling myself out of the equation in terms of my bias; my understanding, and I try to just really put myself in the head of the visitors. And once I do that, then it becomes much more apparent of what I need to test and where. And then as soon as I figure out what holds the most weight, I can then exploit that throughout the rest of the website. If they respond to social proof or they respond more to the benefits of the product or they need more trust aspect in the brand or they need to read more about the product or whatever, I try to figure that out. It could be copy-based. It could be image-based. It could be something as simple as moving a button off on a page. But I incrementally test those things to figure out what holds the most weight and once I figure that out then we just move throughout the site areas on the website and just keep going to try to continually evolve and scale and grow that business. Joe: Going back to the beginning, you said, you see when they drop off in their journey at a certain point. If they're looking at a product and reading an article and at some point, they drop off instead of actually placing an order, what tools or software do you utilize to see that path that the customer takes or potential customer takes to then drop off? It seems to me like that would be hard to access, that information. Justin: No, actually is not. It's one simple report in Google Analytics. Joe: I've been using Google Analytics for; how long have I been self-employed? More than a decade or more like 15 years, I don't know; something like that. Too long to the point where I still don't know how to do stuff like that. Is that training that Google provides you inside of Analytics and workshops or things of that nature or you've just learned it over the years? Justin: Well, it's literally a default report that I go to. It's under Conversions and you have to have e-commerce enabled. So it's under Conversions and then E-commerce and then Shopping Behavior. Literally, it's just a bar graph and it shows you the drop off points in that process and I just know how to read that and then you can dig in deeper and deeper and deeper from there. But generally, I'll get the understanding of it. So, I'll look at the landing page view and it's basically two reports. I'll look at the landing page behavioral report, so I'll see which landing page; their first visit interaction, what that conversion rate is. The Home Page is almost in the top three, almost always, even if you're driving traffic to a separate page or a landing page and the Home Page is generally underutilized by 90% of the businesses out there. Joe: What does it mean underutilized? Justin: They're not focusing on it. They don't care about it. They're focused on landing pages and product pages and checkout flow but yet I've seen campaigns double their return on ad spend by just turning some traffic to their Home Page versus a specific product page. But I look at the top-performing landing pages and then I look at that shopping behavior report and then I'll see okay, we've got this many people that are going on the Home Page, this many people have product views, this many people viewed the cart, this many people went to check out, this many people completed transactions. And usually, there's an outlier in that report. So, if it's on the product page like the product view one, I'll see okay they're in the product view and that means they're viewing a product page, but they're not adding to cart. And then I just go ask a few more questions of where you're driving the majority of your traffic, are you driving traffic directly to that product page or are you driving it to your home page or collections or whatever and then that'll give me a better understanding what those visitors are telling me. Joe: Okay, I got it. And at what point do you go beyond the website itself? Well, actually, let me back up, first and foremost. I talked to thousands of entrepreneurs over the years. Everybody listening to this podcast has a website. Please install Google Analytics because you're not going to be able to do any of this stuff that Justin's talking about. And just to dispel a myth that's out there, Justin, is Google stealing information from the people that are installing software on the website, or are they really just giving you the tools to help improve your business and make more money? Justin: I guess that's up for debate with who you ask but every single website… Joe: I don't want to debate that, by the way. Justin: No, I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Every website out there has it, I mean, has some form of Analytics involved. Joe: Yeah, I just sold a number of them where people have said they straight up don't use Google Analytics and they use some other unknown software or stat tracking data that doesn't do what Google does. So, please everybody install that. When it comes to AB split testing. So, you're figuring these things out. You get to the point where you decide you want to move a button-up or the order button up on a page. Do you just go ahead and do that based off of your experience or do you split test that always? Justin: Always split test it. I am literally proven wrong almost daily. Joe: Okay, it's not just me then. Justin: And we launch 50 plus new split tests a week for our clients. Joe: 50 split tests a week. Okay, always split test regardless. Here's a question for you. This might be tough to answer. When it comes to deciding the winner in a split test, my developer years ago gave me stats and he said, well, you've got to get to this number of total views and then statistically it's got to get here in order to make it a valid split test when you determine a winner. Is that still the case or just kind of do you wing it? Justin: Well, a little bit of both. I look at several different factors. I'll look at statistical confidence, which is one. You have to be statistically valid. You have to have a big enough sample size. You have to have a big enough separation. But I also look at the trend in the data. I look at is it flip-flopping back and forth or is it staying pretty steady as an improvement or a loss? How big of a loss is it out of the gate? And then I look kind of anything north of 25 conversions per variation then I'll start looking at the data. I always run it for at least a calendar week if it's showing promise or sometimes longer. Sometimes a test will run for a month. But there are also the times where you can run a test for six months and run millions of visitors through it and it'll never reach statistical confidence one way or another so you have to know when to cut it. Because if it's null or if it's flat or if it's bouncing back and forth, it's never going to reach confidence because there's not an algorithm on the planet that can factor that fluctuation. Joe: Confidence being the winner, one that's going to produce the end result that you want. Justin: Yes. Joe: What do you do at that point? Do you just flip a coin and decide whoever; if I'm the owner of the website and I like the images on one better than the other and if it's… Justin: So, if I don't know if it's a winner not, I'll generally call it a null result and I'll stick with the original. Unless it's not hurting anything and it's actually making it a better experience for the visitors. Meaning it's cleaning up a page or it's adding a function that might be beneficial that I can use to build upon. Or maybe if it's stripping down a page, then I can go in and then test adding some different types of elements back to the page and it just gives me some more online real estate to work with. So, it's kind of just sort of a guess at that point but I usually have an end goal in mind and I never want to push something that I'm not validating that it's an improvement. And I also don't focus just solely on conversion rate either. I focus on the bigger picture on engagement revenue per visitor, average order value, views on check out; all of those other secondary metrics just to make sure we're not; because you can improve conversion rate but make a lot less money or really dramatically decrease your revenue per visitor. So we just take a very holistic approach to the whole thing and I'm in it to win so I'm not going to push stuff just for the sake of pushing stuff. Joe: Yeah, so number one people have to have Google Analytics installed, figure out how to run the reports, and then always do split testing regardless. What are some of the; I mean you've been doing this for a long time, what are some of the other than I think you said which was people are not paying enough attention to their homepage? What other low hanging fruit is there that folks can do when they look at their own website where you see most common issues, where they can take a look on their own and try to fix things up? Justin: Well, there's a bunch of them, but generally visitors, we kind of live in this speed and this trap, I call it, of growth hacking and a lot of people just go in and say, oh, I think this looks better, let's go ahead and do it or let's change this or I saw so-and-so had it on their website can we do it on my website? And I've never seen that really go well. And also, I think that people think bigger is better so they feel like they need to completely redesign a page or add these big changes to make a big impact and the opposite is actually true. You need to incrementally adjust things to better understand those behaviors. The majority of people that I see are trying to cram too much stuff into a very small area. They're trying to over app their way to better conversions. I've seen stores with 70 plus applications and plugins and all of the stuff installed and they don't necessarily do the right things; adding more urgency and more timers and more pop-ups and things to your website isn't going to help you for a long term sustainable growth. But the glaring one that I see is people do not lead from a place of benefit to the visitors. They're screaming how awesome they are as a company instead of listening to the visitors and what their product is actually going to do for them. And I've said this in my entire career, it's kind of copywriting 101, it's you lead with benefits. So, benefit bullet statements. I go back to that all the time and then I use the features of the product to support those benefits. I've said this many, many times is I've got 16 gigabytes of RAM in my computer, which is great. It's a feature, but it's not a benefit. What does that do for me by having 16 gigabytes of RAM; a faster processing speed, faster video rendering, all of those things because nobody wants the feature. They just want what it's going to actually do for them. And a lot of companies just simply don't do it. They don't pay attention to it and I see it every single week on many, many occasions. Joe: I used to write ad copy for radio direct response stuff and it was 60 seconds and 18 of those 60 seconds were the call to action, which was the phone number; the 800 number at four or five times. We used to be able to get the features and benefits in 42 seconds; simple, clean, quick, clear. It's funny now we've got so much information and so many endless pages of websites that we feel like we do need to just jam more in and do more. Mike Jackness has been a regular guest on the show. He runs Ecom Crew and Ecom Crew Premium and he had a brand called Color It that we sold for him. And one of the things that Mike did very, very well is exactly what you're talking about when he reached out to customers regarding Color It. He had one of the biggest Klaviyo campaigns. He talked about it a lot on the show and that was giving them some benefit with every email that went out; helping them, teaching them, giving them some benefit, not hitting them up with a sales promotion every time. It's a help first mentality and that generally comes back to you. I think that's great. It's sometimes simple to do on a website, and I would think that sometimes it's a little more complex. Are you finding getting a little more complex with video for instance? We had Judson Morgan from Butter.la on talking about the increase in conversions from a static image to a video. Are you finding similar findings or do you split test those types of things as well? Justin: Yeah, we always split test it. I've seen the video go 50% improvement to a 50% decrease and everywhere in between. It just depends on the brand. I've got an auto detailing client that has all the gear for auto detailing and they're very video-focused so moving a video into the main spot on a product page in the carousel would prove really effective for them whereas other companies showcasing a shirt, for example, isn't necessarily as effective as a product that needs to be demonstrated so it's really a case by case basis. And if there's a video available, we'll try to leverage it as much as possible but I have literally seen swings go both ways. Joe: Have you been in a situation where you have been testing video and you're testing that less is more where it's maybe user-generated content versus high-end production and one outperforms the other consistently; probably not consistently, yeah? Justin: Not consistently. But I would say I do this with imagery too, is I kind of lean towards more of the user-generated real type side of things; the shaky camera, the ums and ahs because I think more people are relatable to that or they can relate to that a little bit easier. I've got a client right now that's got a product and all of their imagery looks like straight out of an Instagram model's website. Even their user-generated content is Instagram filtered and perfect and looks like they used a super high-end camera and I'm like, do you have anything real? Like some real, hey, this is awesome look at this. He's like, yeah, I've got all sorts of that. I'm like, well, let's test that because your visitors are literally saying we don't know if these are actually as good; the pictures are great, but we don't know if they're actually as good so we've got to build that trust that the product is great. And this is a site that sells 2,000 plus orders a day so they're doing volume, but their visitors are still screaming we don't know if we can trust this even though they've got 500,000 plus customers. So we're just trying to leverage that as much as we possibly can to showcase in different ways like, hey, this is real and it's not… Joe: Have you had the chance to split test that yet? Justin: We're in the process of gathering all the images. I'm literally going through this this week. Joe: And is that your role within the company or do you have other folks that help you? Justin: Well, I've got a team. Joe: Well getting down to the point where you're picking out those images, or do you let the company owner or your client pick out the images that you'd be choosing? Justin: A little of both, we're very collaborative. But I've got a big team of smart people; designers and developers and strategists and analysts and all of that stuff. But I'm very much involved and my business partner and I are in the overarching strategy. Some clients I'm more in the weeds with than others. This one I just happened to be going back and forth with because he was trying to push for one thing and I'm like, well, your visitors aren't saying they want that so I kind of had to interject and say, here's what we're seeing from that standpoint. Joe: And they're literally saying and you're; and I'm saying you and I know it's your team, but I'm saying it's so that the audience can go and do this themselves as well. You are literally going on to the reviews, to the Instagram comments and things of that nature, and seeing what the visitors are actually saying, or are these e-mails into the company that tips you? Justin: No, survey. This one is actually like just a type form survey saying here's the; we took the top three questions, like what questions do you have that we didn't answer? I do this with exit polling a lot too so almost all of our clients we've set up an exit poll. So catch the people that are leaving and just ask them what problem did we solve for you today or what question weren't we able to answer and give them that open-ended kind of outlet to tell us where we're falling short. And you'll see a trend very quickly of what that data is telling you. In this case… Joe: So somebody when somebody leaves the site without placing an order, if that's the objective, you've got the ability to have them fill out an exit poll form? Justin: Essentially, yes, just a one question kind of survey. Joe: Okay, that's fascinating. Imagine that, asking them why they didn't order and having them tell you and having you be able to fix that problem. What you're doing is not actually that complicated it's just hard work. Justin: Right. Joe: I guess you got to take the time in the detail to get to it, and it's funny, I find a lot of things in this e-commerce or online world that we live in not very complicated. It's common sense. Sometimes we just have to be told what we already know. Justin: Yeah, common sense is kind of lacking in a lot of cases these days it seems like. I mean, even in my career of almost 20 years, nothing's changed. Just the mediums have changed. So that's really it. Joe: True. Justin: People come to me and they're like, oh, hey, what's your framework and what fancy tools are you using and I'm like, I'm simple. I want to go down to the bare bones minimum possible to get the job done. I don't want to over-automate and over-analyze. I just want the visitors to tell me what it is and optimization in that. I mean, there's a science to it, obviously, but an understanding and an experience definitely helps but it isn't rocket science. I mean it's ask the right questions and my question just happens to be why. Why are they clicking on the button or why are they leaving that page or why are they watching the video or aren't they watching the video, why are they dropping off at that point in the video? It's just questioning everything and then looking for all the ways we can possibly test to improve that. Joe: It's a lot of whys in there and none of that becauses come from the founder of the company or the CMO or something like that. They come from the customer, which is smart. It's the mistake I made years ago when I thought I knew everything. I was dead wrong. It sounds like you are too most of the time when you're doing your split testing all week. So, listen to the customer, obviously, but you've got to get that information to the customer and ask them. Justin: Yeah, and I think as business owners, and it's why I hire coaches. It's why I hire people to get an outside, unbiased perspective because I see so many business owners often look at their business or even marketing executives for large, large corporations, they're in there every single day looking at the data, looking at the website, looking at the marketing message that they just get numb to it and blind to it. And sometimes the smallest little change and the smallest interaction or they're overlooking just some small lever they need to pull that's going to dramatically improve their marketing performance. And I fortunately and unfortunately see it all the time. Joe: I'm going to go on a short tangent here. You said you hire coaches. You've been self-employed for two decades in the online space. What kind of coach would somebody with your experience be utilized? What kind of coaches do you hire for yourself? Justin: So I started out; I'm a direct response marketer. I'm a B2C guy that for some reason started an agency. I have no idea how to run an agency. I never did when we started it so I've hired several; I've hired sales coaches, I've hired other business development coaches, I've hired lead generation coaches, I'm in a Mastermind right now for agency owners; all very top level just because there's a lot of stuff that I don't know from the inner workings of the process. I'm a forever student and I think I can learn how to do something and I live kind of by the motto that every day I need to be a little bit better than I was yesterday even if it's just one small incremental improvement. I'm a split test guy so I have to strive for that improvement all the time. And sometimes I have the wrong questions or I have the questions or I'm not asking the right questions on my own business and it's even helped me even through all of the stuff that's going on this year. There was a time where we had a lot of unknowns, even back in March and if we don't change this stuff we're going to be in freak out mode if we don't fix some stuff. So, I needed to lean on my coach and my crew and my circle of influence on the agency side to kind of help us navigate. Joe: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I ask the question because you obviously have done some things right over the last couple of decades and some of the audience members might just be leaving the corporate world and coming into this online world that we live in and one on one coaching is the equivalent of one on one therapy for people that need help but it's for you and your business. In many ways, it improves you as an individual as well as a business person and as an individual. We have David Wood on the podcast; he's a business coach, just talking about the benefits of asking certain types of questions and trying to make incremental growth as you've talked about here. And then the Mastermind groups like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, like Ecom Crew premium, like eCommerceFuel, like Rhodium Weekend, those are all group therapy, but it's group enhancement. Everybody shares their secrets with the other members of the team so everybody can grow and learn together. So I think it's brilliant, very, very smart things to do. Justin: There is a lot of; if you get in a room with people that are on that level or even above you and I don't always join into our monthly or biweekly phone calls on our Mastermind and all of the stuff and I don't always need help. I don't always have something to share but when I do, they're there. And I think there's a lot to be said about that, too. It's just having kind of that fallback and kind of a sounding board when you do have an idea or you're falling short in certain areas. Joe: I couldn't agree more. Justin, I appreciate it. Where do people go to learn about your business Conversion Fanatics; is it just simply www.ConversionFanatics.com? Justin: Yeah, www.ConversionFanatics.com. You can find all information about us. I've got a best-selling book that's also available on Amazon. If you go over there, find it. It has the same name, Conversion Fanatic. Joe: Awesome. Justin: And I'm all over social media so you can find me at www.onespotsocial.com/JustinChristianson and you can find links there; basically everything. Joe: Fantastic. Justin, I appreciate your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Justin: Thanks for having me.

On this episode of Quiet Light, we speak with Jon Elder, who had a seven-figure exit and now guides others on their startup journeys. We discuss the start of his Amazon career; his new business, Black Label Advisor; and how he guides his clients to success.   Topics:  Why he got into an Amazon business. How his conservative spending affected his start. What he negotiated in the sale of his business. Who his current business helps. How his methods have changed since he started. Why you should consistently innovate. Creating experiences for customers. Who his typical client is.   Resources: Black Label Advisor Jon@blacklabeladvisor.com Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: Starting an online business and an Amazon business, that can be tough, right? There are a lot of mental challenges in that and especially those first couple of years; there are a lot of decisions you have to make in order to be successful. You have to think about how much inventory should I be buying in that first year, how much should I be investing, how many new products should I be launching, all while not seeing a lot of cash in your pocket, because any money that you bring in, you're typically reinvesting in that business to be able to help it grow. And so, there are a lot of challenges through those first few years and I think a lot of people get drowned down mentally during that time because there are just so many decisions to try and make as you're growing a business. Joe, you had Jon on the podcast to talk about that. He went through this. He went through a successful exit, and now he's training people on that startup process. How to start up an Amazon business, how to build brands and make those decisions a bit more clearly, have the right mindset as well going through this to make sure that you have some resiliency through that process. Joe: Yeah, Jon reminds me of us and what our website says which is a bunch of entrepreneurs with a bunch of crazy, been there, done that experience. That was a terrible quote from our own website. I should have had it up and read it. Mark: It's something like that. Joe: It's something like that; a bunch of people that have done something. Mark: We're just a bunch of guys and Amanda. Joe: And Amanda, she runs the show. Jon, he had a mid-seven figure exit and it was a substantial and life-changing one that will probably change a generation or two of his family. And he did it through building an Amazon business the right way with multiple brands in one Seller Account. Not that that's the only right way. There are many ways to do it. But he's sharing his direct experience. He's not the typical guru if you will. And I shouldn't say that because we have many friends who would be considered gurus that are actually really good at what they do. But he's been there, he's done it, and now he's going, okay, look, I can help people. I truly, truly can help people. And he set up a system and a process to help people understand how to identify the right product, not just from maximizing value and return on dollars but upon doing that, you're going to be happy and satisfied with working with you and your cash flow; how long the launch process really takes, how often you should launch. He never used any launch services or anything like that. There are a lot of steps that he's set up and he goes through and he's working with people one on one. And I thought it would be beneficial to have him on the podcast because he does have a crazy amount of done there and done that experience. Joe: Hey, folks, Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast. Thanks for joining us. Today we've got somebody that had an incredible exit, one in the mid-seven figure range. Jon Elder ran an Amazon business with multiple brands. Jon, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Jon: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe. Joe: That was a short but powerful introduction if I do say so myself. We don't read fancy intros here. Jon, can you give the audience listening a little bit of background on yourself so they understand who you are and why you're here? Jon: Yeah, of course. My story is kind of similar to a lot of people in the sense of I wanted to get more out of life and there is always an entrepreneurial spirit in me. And so, 2014 is when I started on Amazon and I was also working on a corker construction job and I honestly thought I was going to be in that type of career the rest of my life. I went to college for Construction Management and so it's a pretty high profile, very successful career. But the scaling of salaries is driving me a little crazy and so I wasn't okay with just getting the 5%, switching companies maybe down the line. So, I got into the Amazon world because I thought it was a really great opportunity. At the same time, I'm really conservative so I didn't go in with a large amount of capital. I started with roughly $5,000 and I got my feet wet in the golfing category. Some of that is due to just my general interest in sports and it was a product that there weren't a lot of competitors in that category. It was something I was interested in and something that I thought I could innovate a little bit in that category and become the leader. And within a year I actually did become the leader. I became the number one seller for that specific product. Joe: And you have a job the whole time, Jon, or did you quit? Jon: Yeah, actually I worked full time until 2016. Joe: Excellent. Okay, that's good to hear. Jon: Yeah. Joe: That's what I like to hear. It's a less risky path for people. Jon: Yeah, I'm married, I have a son and so their needs actually come first. I had to make sure that I wasn't putting my family in a bad financial position. So, yeah, I definitely worked with factories in eight. I spent a lot of hours. My wife was very sacrificial, allowing me to spend all that extra time. We used to have conversations about this that we're building a business in the future and there's some sacrifice that has to be made for that. And that's just part of life. Anyone who says that it's easy and it doesn't take that much time is a complete lie. It's a lot of work and very, very stressful but it definitely paid off. Joe: Yeah, you've got five brands over that time period as well, not that just one? Jon: Right and part of that story is just pursuing products that I had an interest in. And not all the brands were successful. Some of the brands were definitely not successful but thankfully the vast majority of my brands took off and became leaders in their respective categories. Joe: Okay, so just to review and just to understand fully who you are, what you've done, because we're going to talk about some of the nitty-gritty here. But in the last year that you sold the business, you did about six and a half million in revenue. You ran the business side by side with being a new dad and a full-time job for a couple of years before you exited. You had five brands and ultimately you sold for mid-seven figures. We're not going to give away the detail here, but an amount that is a life-changing figure that would have taken you 20 years in your construction business to earn probably maybe even more, right? Jon: Oh, yeah. Joe: Over the over the five years or so that you were running the Amazon business, I always love asking this question and it's a tough one because you haven't done the math yet but did you take and make more money as you were running the business; take more cash out of the business for you and your family during that five-year period, or did you get more when you sold the business? Jon: Oh, I definitely got more when I saw the business. One of the driving factors behind the success of my business was the vast majority of the money; any profits that we got were reinvested. That helped us launch products faster. It helped us launch new variations faster and so that allowed us to grow the business very, very quickly. Joe: You must have taken something out for yourself, though, I would assume. Jon: Oh, yeah, definitely. Joe: Just enough to live off of, was your wife working? Jon: No, my wife is a stay-at-home mom. In 2016 when I went full time with Amazon, the goal was to pay myself a salary that mimics my salary at my job and then as the business grew to continue to scale that up from there. And of course, at Christmas time because of the sales and the profits there, doing things like small bonuses and things like that. Yeah, the money that I paid myself definitely increased over time. In the first two years, I paid myself very little just because I was obsessed with growing the business. And honestly, from the very beginning of starting the business, I had a number in mind for my exit someday. A lot of people will say they have vision boards mine was a very specific number. It was in the multiple seven figures and everything I did in the business was geared towards that end goal. And so that's everything from having all my brands under one seller account, all my bookkeeping, just keeping everything clean, strong tax records. Joe: Preaching to the choir, I love that. I love all of it. That's great. It's a clean and easy deal. Did that enable you; was your buyer and SBA buyer or were they a cash buyer? Jon: He was an SBA buyer and the package deal for that was kind of interesting. Roughly 75% was upfront cash and then the rest was split between the seller note over five years and then an earn-out in perpetuity. And so that actually wasn't originally in the contract and with my lawyer at my side, we negotiated that to be perpetuity so I'll get the money eventually. Joe: Wow, that's fantastic. That part of it was probably outside the SBA guidelines though, yes? Jon: That's completely outside the contract. Joe: Good, good, good. Understood. Okay, so you learned an awful lot, you had five brands, some were successes, some were failures along the way, and you're now helping other people as well. What are some of the basic tips that you would give somebody if they're just starting out? So this podcast, even though you had a multiple seven-figure exit, even though you've operated five brands, you're really focused on helping people that are just starting out more than anything else. What are some of the basic things that somebody should look for if they're, let's say, either starting out or if they're buying a small Amazon business, that might be a couple of hundred thousand dollars in total value? Jon: So it sounds cliché but follow your passion. That's something that I tell my clients and friends and family who are interested in starting an Amazon business. Do something that you're generally interested in. And it doesn't have to be your ultimate passion. For example, golfing was never the ultimate sport. It was just a general interest in it. But go into something that you have some sort of interest in because at some point you will have hurdles and you will have issues with your business. So, for example, you might have to spend a couple of hours on a Friday night talking with one of your factories about resolving quality issues on a previous purchase order. You got to be invested in that product and if it's not a product that you're interested in, for example, I would never go into women's makeup because I have zero interest in it. I just don't know if I would be totally in it once I hit those bumps in the road. Joe: Yeah, and I've heard people say just the opposite, except for that part of the bumps in the road. So you could be product agnostic, but it helps, it's not an absolute requirement, it helps, as you're saying, to have some passion about the product. If you're going to end up on a call at 11 o'clock on a Friday night with a manufacturer on the other side of the world to work out some kinks in the detail, if you're not passionate about it, if you're not interested, if you hate it, you'd probably think about doing something else. Jon: Yeah, and I think along this subject too it's even deeper than that. I mean, so often, you're going to have other competitors for your product. There is so much innovation and improvement in your product that takes place over time. Personally, I wouldn't want to be looking at makeup and spending hours and hours and hours trying to get a better formula because I just don't care about it. One of my other product lines was an outdoor kid's product. The mission behind that brand was actually to encourage kids to rediscover the great outdoors. So many kids are on tech now and they spend hours and hours inside on the Switch and on iPads that; and this is how I parent as a dad, too is I encourage my son to go spend hours outside. Joe: How old is your son? Jon: He's five. Joe: Okay, wait until they're teenagers. It gets even worse, man. It gets even worse. They're playing with friends all the time it's just online I tell you. So, yeah, have some passion about what you do. There's no question about it. You started with 5,000 bucks. Are you helping people that haven't even picked a product yet or those that have a product idea and has sourced it and are really just trying to figure out how to how to get some traffic on? Jon: Yeah, obviously it depends. Some of my clients definitely have product ideas and they're already innovating and they want to go into a category where it's going to be truly unique and different. And then others are still in the brainstorming stage. My job is to just advise and help them along the journey all the way through sourcing and getting on to Amazon and launching. But there is so much that goes into the product research phase, and that's what I tell people, is just expect to spend hours and hours researching and researching because this is your money you're talking about. And some people take out loans. This is real stuff. You need to be 100% sure that you're in it for the long haul with your product. So, it comes down to researching the estimated revenues for that product. The thing that made me the most successful was innovating products that had some negative reviews. So I would harness all those reviews and fix all the problems. Joe: How do you do that with the manufacturer on the other side of the world? Jon: It's pretty incredible. I actually never visited any of my factories. I had four factories and it was all through phone calls, Skype, and emails. Joe: And it worked, not a problem. So are you working with a product innovation firm that's doing industrial design work for you or are you just sketching it out yourself and asking for innovations from the manufacturer? Jon: No, actually, the innovations were things that; again, because I was in product categories that I had a deep interest in, I was able to innovate myself. Joe: And do you then just put a drawing in front of that manufacturer and say can you do this? Jon: Exactly. Yeah, sketches are really useful, and then something that blew me away was how intellectual or sophisticated the Chinese factories were. They actually had 3D modeling engineering guys in-house. And I worked with some big boys. The factory for the golfing product that I sold, they actually supplied some products for the PGA Tour. One of the keys to my success was working with factories that were not starting out their journey as a factory. These were very established factories that sold products to Walmart and brick and mortar companies. Joe: Yeah. For those listening one of the additional options is Gembah, www.Gembah.com. We had Zach on the podcast here. It's a product innovation company, its industrial designers that can do that. If you're not good at drawing and innovating, they can do that work for you so that you present a more professional look to the manufacturer. Okay, so advise number one, spend a lot of time on deciding what product and product categories you're going to go into because this is where you're going to be spending all of your money in the future years, yes? Jon: 100%, and all your time. Joe: All right, let's just say we picked a great product. What's next? I mean, is it simple photography, put the listing up, look at basic stuff in terms of recommendations from Amazon? Are you using a launch service like Viral Launch or are you using some other launch service or a combination of different things? Jon: Yeah, for launching, I can get into that in a second. So, the next step that worked really well for me was doing a ton of screening with the factories. And then what I would do is I would do three final samples and we're dealing with weeks and weeks of communications here. Like this is a long process to make sure that my factory is the best of the best. So I would test the factories over email and I would ask oddball questions. I would also come across as the VP of Logistics or the VP of Product Innovation. So I would definitely present myself as an image of a large corporation. They never thought that I was a mom and pop shop in the States. But getting three samples from three strong factories was really successful for me. Joe: Three samples from each or one sample from each? Jon: Sorry, one sample from each factory. And then I would stress-test those products, use them, inspect them, see how they feel in my hand. I would do all those types of things. I ask friends and family what they thought of the products. That was a very common process. And then I ended up after taking in all that data, deciding on my final factory. Joe: This may be a basic question, but I assume you're paying for the sample and paying to have it shipped, right? They're not sending free samples and free shipping. Jon: Correct. Joe: So you're going to spend several hundred to a thousand dollars in just reviewing product samples I would assume, depending upon product cost of course? Jon: I would say a couple of hundred. Joe: Expected, and that's an incredible investment that you have to make, right? You can't just look at some stuff and get one sample and off you go. Jon: Yeah, so it's common to see that everywhere right now. It's like you can skip all those steps and you don't need to worry about that. There is some time and money upfront that is going to save your butt long term. 100%. Joe: So then if you've got the product samples; let's say you want to innovate on all three, let's say they're pretty close but you want a thicker grip on a handle or something like that, are you asking the manufacturers all three just to see how they respond and react and work with you in terms of innovation? Jon: 100% and part of that is also testing how flexible they are as a factory and how easy they are to work with. Joe: Okay. Jon: If they put up a big fight and complain about things, that's going to be a red flag for me. In the factories that I ended up working with, the answer was always yes. Their response was yes, we can do that. Yes, we want your business. Yes, yes, yes. Those are the guys that I ended up working with. The ones who caused issues for me and said, no, we can't do that, that's going to cost $5,000, I just got rid of those guys off the bat. Joe: All right, so what's next? You've tested three manufacturers. You chose a product, you innovated the product, and you're at the point where you've got the final decision on what you're going to invest your money in. What's next after that? Jon: So at that point, you have your final sample, and hopefully you have that in hand, typically production, depending on how many units. My test unit order was always 250 units, sometimes 500 units. So what I would do is while production is happening, whether that's two weeks or four weeks, I would have my final sample sent to a professional photography firm. In the very beginning, I actually took pictures myself and had a designer kind of edit my pictures and pump up the colors a little bit. But later down the road, when I was launching product after product, I'd send the products to a professional photography firm and have them do the enhanced brand content just to tie in the branding for my product. Because in the beginning, I sold a lot of random products, and then as time went on and I got more educated on it, I realized I need to be establishing my brand. I need people to come to Amazon for that specific golfing product. I want them to see my name and think quality and fantastic customer service. That's what I wanted them to remember about me. And so part of that is beautiful packaging, part of that is beautiful enhanced brand content. I had videos as my seventh picture on the listing. Joe: I was just going to ask that. How many of your listings had videos on them, all of them? Jon: The two largest brands had videos and that was kind of like a cost decision because the videos that I went with were extremely high production videos. And not everyone has to do fancy videos. The reason why we justified that was those brands were very, very large. We're talking big revenue numbers so it was something that I felt was needed. Joe: You didn't do that out of the gate on that first golfing product I assume, right? Plus, it was 2014. It probably wasn't an option for you. Jon: No. I don't remember the year that they allowed videos on the listing. I think it was maybe starting to happen in 2017-ish but yeah, in the very beginning you were locked out of everything. You had a paragraph for your description; you had bullet points, and then seven pictures. That was it. Joe: Yeah. Okay, so now you've ordered products, you ordered 250 units, spent a couple of hundred bucks on samples, you got another final sample you sent off to a photographer. It doesn't sound like you've got a whole lot of money left if you're starting out with five grand. I guess it depends on how much product cost is. Jon: That initial investment can range drastically. My first product in the golfing category, I sourced it for a dollar a unit. Joe: Well, that makes a difference, that it explains it right there. Jon: Yeah, exactly, it makes a huge difference. And I did that on purpose just because I'm so financially conservative that I wanted to learn the logistics process of Amazon and if I did screw something up along the way, whether that was customs or something at Amazon, I wanted that capital invested a tad small. Joe: And if you were in a competitive space that would have meant the barriers to entry in terms of cost are pretty low. A year later you said you wound up with the top listing, but did you start to see competitors come in pretty rapidly after that? Jon: Oh, yeah, 100%. And I think what drives that is people see a new seller take over that category and then they see all the revenue go to me and then they think, oh shoot, I'm going to mimic him and I'm going to come in and take some of the revenue. And that's part of life is you have to; and when I mentioned innovation, you have to be constantly innovating your products. So I ended up adding a special device to my golfing product that actually had a patent for it. No one else could do that but that was kind of like an additional tweak I did for the products that made my listing unique and different from all the other listings. That's just the harsh reality of Amazon is once you become a category leader, you will have a lot of other people come in and mimic you. Joe: And the way to fight that is to innovate. Jon: Innovate, be the best, and when you think your pictures are good just get even better pictures. Joe: Yeah, I hear you. All right, so now we've got the product. You've ordered it. You are starting to have your photos done. What's next? I had mentioned launches and systems and things of that nature, where are you helping your clients and advising them to go from there? Jon: I'm different in the world of Amazon because most of my products; actually all the products were done organically and so my strategy is a little slower than other sellers. Joe: Let's define what you mean there organically. Jon: So for example, never using services like Viral Launch or other services where you're paying discounted rates or using websites to launch your products. Joe: You simply put the listings up on Amazon use Amazon Sponsored Ads and off you went? Jon: It's a little more than that. Joe: It always is. I'd like to simplify things and dumb it down but I know it's a lot more complicated than that, yeah. But no launch services, nothing like that? Jon: Right and so what was really beneficial was really actually humorous autoresponder emails. So we use a service called Feedback that was really, really successful. Alongside that doing a little bit of a giveaway through the early reviewer program and then just pumping PPC, to be honest with you. And so typically we do like slightly reduced cost for the products to be priced a little lower; nothing too drastic because that can mess up your Lightning Deals down the road. So we would reduce it a little bit and just funnel a ton of money into PPC. And then we had an autoresponder series on average two to three emails. Joe: So explain the autoresponder part because you don't have control of the customer. This is after they buy the product? I'm confused on the autoresponder part. Jon: This is right after someone buys the product. So one email goes out three days after they receive the product and then another one goes out seven days and another one goes out 14 days. And those are all tweets specifically to be kind of funny. So many people open up emails and to be honest with you, most people don't open their emails very often. So having a really funny title for the email and then the actual body of the email being short and sweet and using a joke or something about the product was really, really helpful. Joe: I got you. So, you're not breaking even upfront, I assume, because you're spending a lot of money on Pay-Per-Click. Jon: No, I'm definitely in the red when I first started. Pretty much all my product launches started in the red. Joe: How long are they in the red for? Jon: Probably a minimum of six months because I'm doing it organically. Joe: So, how many products are you launching in the first year; two or are you going after more? Jon: The first year was two products actually. Joe: So, if somebody is coming to you with a little bit bigger of a budget and let's say they've got 20 grand and they're really needing your guidance to get launched and they've got an idea of the product. Are we still looking at losing money or breaking even for the first six months, eventually breaking and making a little bit? Jon: That is so dependent on the category that you're in. If you go into a category where you're competing with guys that have 500 reviews or a thousand reviews; let's say the top 10 sellers have a thousand reviews, it's going to take some time and you're going to have to burn through some cash. And the reason why is PPC gets more expensive every single day. That's just the reality of it. And everyone is competing for those keywords. And so, for example, with my products, I always outbid my competitors for the top search volume keywords, and the reason why is that that drove incredible sales to my listing. And PPC was actually the highest cost in terms of expenses for my business. Joe: Do you know what it was overall as a percentage of your revenue? Jon: Oh, man. Joe: I'm typically seeing anywhere between 10 and 20%. Jon: Yeah, I want to say was more like 25%. Joe: Okay. Jon: If we're dealing with the PPC costs alone my CPA would just look at me and be like, man, you guys are spending a lot of money on PPC. But that's just the reality of the business. Joe: But your CPA still has a day job? You get to do whatever the hell you want at this point in your life, right? Jon: Yes sir. Joe: Then who is right, you or the CPA? I think you were. Jon: Those expenses look kind of scary, but when you're looking at the percentage of revenue, it becomes a little less scary. Joe: Yeah. Now do all; I know the answer to this, but not all product launches are going to take six months to start to get traction and breakeven, did you have any in your five-year stretch where you would see some just home runs out of the gate or get some profitability within the first one to two months? Jon: The kid's product took off very fast and that was a very organic launch. And the reason why was there were maybe two or three sellers for that product and they had an inferior quality problem. So if you go look at the reviews, the actual liner of the material for the toy would just deteriorate like within a month under the sun. And so we innovated and we got the best liner possible, got UV-resistant liner and improved the product drastically and that took off with beautiful pictures. We actually hired some models; some family members actually took pictures with the product and just focused on quality for that product. People bought it and I realized, wow, this is like; it showed up in the reviews, your product is as lasting a long, long time. And that became very successful, very quick. Joe: And it was all from looking at other listings and the negative reviews that those had and innovating and improving the product? Jon: Correct. Joe: Yeah, pretty cool. How hard is it, though, to find a category where there are only two or three sellers? It seems like an impossible task these days, is it not? Jon: So Amazon is definitely; there's a lot more competition now. I think the secret's out about FBA. Joe: It might be, yeah. Jon: It's definitely harder now. I think that most categories are going to have far more than two to three sellers and so what I always recommend is even if there's seven sellers, you can break into those market segments as long as you're not dealing with sellers that have like a thousand reviews. If seven of them have 75 reviews or maybe 200 reviews, that's something that you can definitely go into and compete with. But there is always going to be a hole in the market. There's always going to be a chance to innovate and do something and spend the time to make the best product possible that lots of other people aren't going to do. And one example was actually the leather goods category that I was in. It was specifically for men. We drilled down all the way into the product packaging. A lot of people don't do that. They would get their leather goods products and they'd open it up from the box and it's in a polybag, right? That's not an experience. Joe: Right. Jon: So our idea was let's make it an experience for this person to open it up and sell everything down to the custom packaging for the box down to a branded tissue with branded tape. So whenever the person opened this product up, they knew that they were receiving a high end, high-quality product that was different from everyone else. So that's just like; it sounds kind of silly, but no one spends time with packaging and what does it feel like when you open up that product at home? Joe: It's because it's not sexy. They spend time on marketing and topline revenues and talk about it with their friends because it's sexy. But packaging and good bookkeeping and good branding and good photos and videos and the profit is actually what puts you in the best position possible, which is doing whatever you want at this point in your life. Jon: Yeah, definitely. What's interesting about that is the customers would actually talk about all the nitty-gritty details that I spent time on. That would come up as content and some of those reviews would be the top-rated reviews. Someone left a review on one of the leather goods products and it was this detailed long review with pictures and they went out of their way to be like, I've never opened a product from Amazon and the packaging was just stunning. So I was like, yes, it worked. And so other customers who are on Amazon obviously see the top-rated reviews and see that type of content and it definitely helps and it soon became a leader in that category. Joe: Cool. Jon, we're a little short on time, but I wanted to ask you, what are some of the biggest challenges you think folks are going to face? Jon: I think the biggest challenge is definitely just not getting swept up in sexy products. I've seen this online so much, just this huge push for going into supplements, for example. I tell my clients, do not do supplements. Don't go into that category. Don't do it. Don't do products that go on people's skin. Don't go into products where you're ingesting things. I'm always recommending kind of simpler products that are very, very low risk. And don't go into knives; things where people can get injured. So, just focusing on a product that you're interested in and it's low risk. And that's always tough because you see the revenues that other sexy products are bringing in and people get swept up in that. Joe: This is one of the first times I wish I just hadn't asked that question because I sold; my own company was a digestive wellness supplement company. I've got a good friend that's selling his makeup business for like 40 million dollars. We have, as a company supplement companies that are under contract for anywhere from two to 20 million dollars. And I think when they're when they're done right, they're done right. Jon: Exactly, and I would never want to give the impression that it's not possible. It's just my conservative nature kind of stays away from those types of product lines. And you have to be you definitely have to be a more sophisticated seller to… Joe: These guys are. These guys are all very, very smart, very good at what they do, have SOPs that'll pass on to the owners of the business, as did mine. And it's competitive, right? It's that they are low barriers to entry cost-wise. Jon: Extremely, you have to have big capital and that's one of the barriers for sure. Joe: Yeah. Well, I think it is a nice; it's a low barrier to entry to buy into the product category, but then you've got to rank and that's where the additional capital and expertise goes. It's very, very challenging. All right, so how do people reach out to you? I see its www.BlackLabelAdvisor.com, but ideally, let's talk about who your typical client would be and how they reach out to you. Jon: Yeah. So the easiest way to reach out is to go to my website, www.BlackLabelAdvisor.com or you can email me Jon@BlackLabelAdvisor.com. My passion is to help other people replicate my story. So many people I talk to you are they'll see my story and they'll say, oh my gosh, that's a dream, you know? And I used to think it was a dream too. And when I closed on the sale of the business, it was a dream come true to see the money come through. It was an unbelievable feeling that you just never think it's ever going to happen. I have recommendations and systems and third party companies I highly recommend. Along the way, I made mistakes myself and my passion is to help people avoid those mistakes and grow their business faster just because of all the experience I have and just help them along the journey with the end goal of selling someday. Joe: Yeah, I like it, folks. Jon is not somebody who can't so he teaches. He actually did it. He built an Amazon business with five brands, sold for a multiple seven figures, and now he's helping them. And that's what we do at Quiet Light, we help first. We want to help you succeed. Strangely enough, it actually helps us in the long run too, right? Somebody listening in the audience hire somebody like John who has real-life experience to give real-life advice to help them succeed in their online business. That person will come around at Quiet Light someday as well. So with that look around, who can you help? Help out your neighbor, help your friend that's in the online space and keep helping, it'll come back around too in time. Jon: Definitely. Joe: Jon, I appreciate your time. BlackLabelAdvisor.com folks, reach out and connect with Jon if you need some help to help get your Amazon business off the ground. Jon: Awesome. Thanks, Joe.

On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we have the opportunity to speak with Jesse Kaufman, the CEO and founder of Shipping Tree. Though Amazon sellers often use that company's fulfillment services, some people engage a third party. 3PL's can do everything from start to finish or they can merely be used as a prep center. Regardless of how you use a 3PL, there are ways to optimize your expenses. Tune in to hear our discussion about how to negotiate with a 3PL.   Topics: The typical Shipping Tree client. Deciphering quotes from 3PLs. The best integration models for 3PLs. How using a 3PL can save money. Commerce zones. Different types of Amazon seller accounts.   Resources: Shipping Tree Jesse@shippingtree.co Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: So within the world of Amazon FBA, a lot of sellers rely on Amazon's fulfillment services and simply ship all the product over there but there are other sellers who utilize a 3PL either to fulfill the product and do everything from beginning to end and there are also those that use it just as a prep center before sending it off to Amazon in a way to try and save on some of the fees. And I think we can all agree Amazon's fees for fulfillment are pretty high compared with a lot of other solutions out there. Joe, I know you had somebody on who owns a 3PL and you guys talked a lot about how to negotiate the rates with that 3PL and how you can optimize some of your expenses by using a 3PL as opposed to just sending everything carte blanche over to Amazon. Joe: Yeah, these are my favorite kind of podcast guests when they go on and they talk about everything that they do and give it all away for free on podcasts like this. He's not pitching their services. He's just like, if you're negotiating with a 3PL look for this, don't do this, throw that contract away, if you have recurring revenue shipments, this is how you save on your shipping cost. If you have a 3PL located in Southern California, here's the benefit; monetary benefit by way of example of shipping from Ohio and things of that nature. It was fascinating. We've had a lot of people over the years say hey can you recommend any 3PLs and that was the point of having this person on knowing that he would give it all away for free. I think it's going to be very helpful for those that currently have 3PL, very helpful for those that ship exclusively through FBA because it's convenient, and some of the benefits of having a 3PL for kitting, for doing so fulfill Prime to avoid what happened during the pandemic where there were delays from Amazon shipping because of shipping medical supplies first; all sorts of different things that I think will really help the current e-commerce business owners and those that want to buy improve their bottom line and improve their customer experience as well. Mark: Yeah, I think this is all about control, right? I think the pandemic is a great example. Those that were 100% reliant on Amazon often saw; many of those guys saw delays and disruptions in their supply chains and also their ability to fulfill orders. Those that were using 3PLs didn't because they had that outlet for everything. So this is an interesting topic and this is where a lot of ROI is made in acquisitions, is learning how to optimize the expense profile and especially on that Amazon side so I'm excited for this one. Joe: Me too and just as a teaser it gives away one example where I, based upon the numbers you gave me, probably added a million dollars in value to the company. Obviously a very large company but if it adds $10,000 or $100,000 in value just by doing little things that make a difference, it really adds up to the overall value so let's go listen. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and Quiet Light Podcast. Thanks for joining us again. Today we're going to talk about 3PLs, how to save money on shipping, all sorts of different things in that regard. And today, we've got Jesse Kaufman from Shipping Tree. Jesse, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Jesse: Thanks for having me. Joe: Good to have you here. As I said earlier, we don't do fancy introductions, so I don't have a big bio on you. No one knows you better than you so why don't you tell everybody listening who you are and what you do? Jesse: Yes, my name is Jesse and I'm the CEO and founder of Shipping Tree. A 3PL based in Los Angeles with facilities across the country. I'm Canadian and got my start in the fashion distribution business and quickly realized that the 3PL world wasn't where it should be, at least in North America, and that's why started Shipping Tree. Joe: And is your typical client an e-commerce client with lots of different SKUs like from your fashion background? Jesse: Yes, our typical client now are e-commerce direct to consumer-focused companies in the CPG supplement cosmetics space, actually. Joe: Wow. Okay, so lots of people picking, packing, and shipping. That's great. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Okay, so let's jump into it. A lot of people; I've worked with 3PLs myself, I had a nutritional supplement company that I sold a decade ago if you can believe that; almost a decade ago, before I joined the Quiet Light team and I don't know if I negotiated the greatest deal with my 3PL because he was a friend of mine. Jesse: Impossible, yeah. Joe: We did recurring revenue shipments and the owner was a friend of mine and because of that probably either I got an amazing deal or I got a terrible deal; probably nothing in between. Jesse: You'll never know. Joe: I'll never know. No. And I was just going to go on the craziest side there but people do not need to hear that history. Let's talk about, first and foremost, what's the best approach to reaching out to a 3PL and not just simply accepting the boilerplate prices that you give or should they or is there a way that you can professionally negotiate so it's a really healthy deal for both parties? Jesse: Yeah, totally. So, I think most important in your 3PL search is kind of put as many feelers out there as you can, get your internal data together, and organize before you put out those feelers so you could give those prospective 3PLs the data they need to give you pricing quickly. Joe: What kind of data are we talking about? Jesse: It's really like shipment data. So like a pretty basic Shopify export of your orders that includes the dimensions and the units in the order. That should give any 3PL the ability to quote you really accurately. Then once you start getting those quotes back right away, it'll be pretty evident. Some 3PLs their quotes will have 30 line items. Others like mine and some of our closer competitors will have more in the neighborhood of three to five line items. So right away, all those 3PLs with 30 line items of potential charges throw those proposals in the garbage. There's no use even negotiating with those guys. The other ones with simple line items, three to five, maybe up to 10, those are the ones you want to focus on because, in my opinion, those are the ones that have the most merchant focused approach to the way they do business. And then areas where you can negotiate with 3PLs, in my experience, would be the initial processing fee on an order. So typically speaking, the most labor-intensive and expensive part of the work that we do are the individual picks. So 3PLs are rarely going to have margins to negotiate on the pick fees for your orders. Joe: And the pick is literally someone walking around and picking your product off the shelf and putting it on the proper conveyor belt to have the label put on. Jesse: Exactly. Joe: Okay. Jesse: Yeah, so you want to negotiate on the larger items on that list. So things like storage, processing fees, get rid of any minimums and stuff and kind of like frame your business as one that's even if you're just starting, it's ready to scale you're a smart team, you're going to scale it quickly, get rid of those minimums, focus on things like storage, processing, packaging, and you could kind of dwindle those down a little bit. Joe: Are there startup fees in most cases with 3PLs that I have to pay you $5,000 for the pleasure of doing business with you and that's just the setup fee and then it's going to be a monthly pack and ship fee? Jesse: If that comes across your desk, throw it in the garbage. Joe: Just throw it in the trash, okay. Jesse: Yeah, throw it in the trash. If you have really complex integration needs like an ERP system like NetSuite and a ton of different marketplaces, then there might be; you could expect some sort of integration fee and tech fees for that. But if you're just running like run of the mill, Amazon, Shopify, Walmart.com, maybe an accounting system; like all of that should be out of the box with the 3PL that you work with. Joe: Can you just dumb down what an integration fee is? Jesse: Yeah, so you're going to want your 3PL to plugin with whatever systems are running your business on the shopping cart side or the marketplace side of things and so you that you don't leak your sales channel. You want the 3PL to plug into there so data flows back automatically, your team has very little to do, that really is going to take the weight of shipping and fulfillment off your plate. And some companies charge for these integrations really like a setup fee, which isn't right because for Shopify, for example, we've built the integration already. We enter a couple of lines of code and the integration is done in five to 10 minutes so why would we charge you $500 for that? It's just not right. Joe: Good markup, $500 for five minutes of work. I like that. Jesse: I do like that markup, but we don't do it. Joe: Not if you want to keep the customer long term, I suppose, right? Jesse: Yeah. So, we've built out; and you want to find a 3PL that owns their tech stack. So what I mean is they kind of own their platform and they own the integrations. So we've built out these integrations so we've done the work upfront already and it's ready so we could just deploy it for the merchant. Joe: That makes a lot of sense because that's probably where the $500 charge comes from, is because they're using somebody else's software that somebody else is charging them and they're passing it on to the product owner. Jesse: Exactly, yeah. Joe: Is there a particular; I know that within Shopify, within the different websites platforms, there are different integrations for processing shipping. Is there a favorite integration that most 3PLs are comfortable with? And I cannot think for the life of me of a single one of them right now and I've used them before in the past but is there any particular integration that people like in terms of that processing of the order and having it ready to be shipped just to be shared with a 3PL or am I a little off track here? Jesse: A little off track. A little, so that's like if you just had a regular Shopify store, you would actually install the Shipping Tree app in your Shopify store. Joe: Okay, so you've got your app that you would install. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Okay. Jesse: But you're talking about a product like Ship Station. Joe: Yes, that's the one I was trying to think of. Thank you. All right. Jesse: So Ship Station is great. We integrate with them also. Ship Station is great if you're selling on a ton of marketplaces like Etsy, Groupon; like if you're really marketplace heavy grand Ship Station is great because it brings all that in one place and then that's just one integration for us to run and manage. Joe: Okay, for people that are selling on Amazon is the largest marketplace and some of their own Shopify sales as well is there a benefit to using a 3PL to store inventory before shipping it off to Amazon, and do you provide those types of services? Jesse: Yeah, totally. So we do that a lot for our customers. We kind of run in parallel to Amazon like the verticals and the brands we serve and everyone needs to work with Amazon these days especially in CPG and cosmetics and supplements and stuff. So, yeah, our storage rates are generally cheaper than Amazon and more flexible. Joe: You can probably do kitting that  Amazon's not doing, right? Jesse: Yeah, so we could help prep your stuff to go to Amazon. So if your factory isn't putting the Amazon FNSKU barcodes on the boxes we could do all that work for you. Joe: And you happen to be in Southern California so if it's coming off a boat it just have to go very far, which is kind of a strategic location, I would imagine. Jesse: Exactly, yeah. Joe: I had a guy named Rocky Cliburn on the podcast in the last, I don't know, maybe it was a year ago and Rocky was just this great buyer in his 60s. He was a general manager of car dealerships, if you can imagine, for his entire life and then he bought a jewelry business; an e-commerce jewelry business from Amanda here on the team. And Rocky and his daughter ran the business and within months improved the margins by like $8,000 to $10,000 a month by working with their fulfillment center in terms of shipping rates and packaging and things of that nature. You and I chatted prerecording here about saving on postage in terms of improving the value of a business and so you understand we always talk about the value of a business and it's really based upon profit, which is actually called seller's discretionary earnings. It's not about topline revenue. It's about what you get to keep. And a lot of folks don't focus on the 3PL potential savings as they prepare an eventual exit of their business. So how do you end up saving thousands of dollars on your shipping and postage like Rocky did if you're working with a 3PL, what kind of recommendations have you implemented for clients of yours? Jesse: That's a great point; a great question. So there's two things there. One is choosing the right shipping methods and another is the packaging that you're choosing. So I'll start with the packaging and for example, a jewelry company they might have one standard box size for all their orders just to they think it's a good solution that's like a catch-all. Every order ships in the same box so it either might be too big or it might be too small. If you optimize that, especially for smaller weight items, every ounce is almost 20 cents with the Postal Service. So if you could figure out a way to ship in a smaller box, maybe a more efficiently sized box, even though you think it might be it's a bigger inconvenience to have to source two different sized boxes or whatever it may be, you're going to knock 5%, 10% off your postage just right there optimizing for box size especially for orders under a pound. Joe: How much do boxes really weigh I mean if we're talking about the size of a shoebox? Jesse: So a shoebox is quite like half; almost half a pound, I would say. Joe: Okay, so if you can save a couple of ounces, you might be saving $400 or $500 a month if you're shipping a thousand orders a month or something like that. Jesse: Easy, yeah. Joe: Back in the day, when I was doing what most folks do that are listening, we had a fulfillment center up in Maine, which is just crazy because I was shipping all over the country but that's where I was from at the time. But they had a subcarrier. It wasn't the US Postal Service. They had somebody else that was sort of a cheaper version of that that would take it to the US Postal Service and then the US Postal Service would deliver it for that last mile or so. I forget what that's called but is that something that a lot of 3PLs can utilize and how do you find out about it if you're working with a 3PL now? Jesse: Yeah, so those are called shipping aggregators or an aggregator service. A lot of the major carriers offer that these days. The FedEx one is called Smart Post, and then there's a DHL product called DHL E-commerce. So those guys would pick up from your 3PL, bring it as close as they can kind of to the customer, then USPS finishes it. So those are good and bad. They're great for saving money. They're bad for making first impressions. Joe: So they take a little longer to ship, right? Jesse: Yeah, exactly because there's more touchpoints. But I think what we spoke about was; like we have a lot of subscription-based companies. Joe: I think we did that. I think that's what we did, is did it on the recurring revenue aspect of it where it didn't need to be there in two days, you could get it in five. Jesse: Exactly. Yeah, so we could set it up. And always look for this in a 3PL to have flexibility with mapping your shipping methods. It's really important that they don't just like put all your orders like this is it, this is what you have to use because we work with all the carriers. We probably have over 100 available methods and we work with our customers to make sure they're using the best ones. So for a subscription-based company, that first-order should go out with like a fairly premium single carrier option like USPS Priority Mail or FedEx Ground or whatever it may be so that is quick and the tracking is seamless. And then once they get into that subscription funnel; the customer, you could set it up programmatically so that instead of the order shipping on the anniversary date, you ship the order like three days in advance and you use one of these slower and cheaper methods. So that way the order is going to arrive within one or two days of the correct window for the subscription renewal, you're going to save easily 30%, 40% on your postage that way, and yeah, everyone is happy. Joe: That could certainly add up, that's for sure. That subcarrier method, is there tracking with it as well or not? Jesse: There is tracking, but it's known to go dark the tracking sometimes. Joe: Okay. Jesse: It's not as reliable as a single carrier because yeah. Joe: Okay, do you have; actually location, does it really matter? As I just said a few minutes ago, my fulfillment center was up in Maine. I was shipping all over the country. Jesse: That might be the worst place, Sanford Fulfillment Center. Joe: Oh really? Okay [INAUDIBLE 00:19:30.4]. Why would that be the worst? Is it just zone wise is the best place inside of the country or is the best place in Southern California where you are? Jesse: Okay, so if you could only choose one fulfillment center or one location, middle of the country is best unless obviously, all your customers are west. Like, if you're a surf brand and all your customers are on the West Coast choose a West Coast 3PL. But if you're just a normal run of the mill brand and you could only have one facility choose something in the middle, that way shipments are never really going to go to the outer edges of the zone map. So if you just Google search a zone map, the country will be split up into kind of columns like a heat map with the further you go, the further the zone and it goes up to nine zones. If you're in the middle of the country, the furthest zone is like six or seven possibly. And so with Maine, the reason why Maine is not so great is New York, historically one of the biggest population centers in terms of e-commerce orders going to that area, that's a zone two or three for Maine. So you're not even getting the benefit of being that close to New York geographically and then everything in L.A. is a zone nine. Joe: Let's talk dollars, though. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: And you've seen this with clients that you've brought in. How much are we talking about? If somebody is; and I know it's hard to quantify, so maybe we're only talking percentages but… Jesse: I could give you an example. Joe: Please. Yeah. Thank you. Jesse: Yeah. So we opened our facility in Ohio last year and we had a customer; one of our better customers, the supplements company, they were shipping everything out of our L.A. warehouse, obviously. Right away they probably spent close to $100,000 a month on postage. Joe: Okay. Jesse: Or they did when we were; they still do it [INAUDIBLE 00:21:34.4]. Right away when we started shipping out of Columbus and Los Angeles; so now you cut it down to furthest the package is going is zone four. Right away they started saving $15,000, $20,000 a month. Joe: Holy cow. Jesse: Not changing anything and the shipping speed… Joe: I hope everybody is listening to this far just because in that situation, $100,000 a month, even if all you spend is $10,000 a month on shipping, you're saving 15% to 20%. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Go ahead. Jesse: And your customers are getting their orders quicker. Joe: So they're happier too; you're getting no return rates, higher customer satisfaction. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: The value that adds to the company in terms of customer satisfaction is huge but the value in terms of the sellability of the list price of the company for that one spending $100,000 and it drops to $80,000 a month, that's $240,000 of real cash saved on an annual basis. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: The size of that business, I'm going to guess maybe it's at a four-time multiple. They just added nearly a million dollars to the value of their company by saving $240,000 a year. That's that net worth. It's pretty incredible. So as whatever, it's just shipping, I'm going to focus on revenue, just stop focusing on revenue alone and look at some of these other things, because it's just math and logic saves a tremendous amount of money. That's awesome. What other tips and tricks do you have here Jesse? Come on, keep throwing them at us. Jesse: Yeah, so splitting up inventory; that's a big one. So using multiple facilities and find a company that has a few facilities and if you could afford it, there's a lot of fulfillment consultants out there who aren't terribly expensive at all. But it could be a really daunting process for brands going through their whatever they use Excel or the ERP or their inventory systems and be like, how am I going to split up the inventory between two warehouses? I don't know where demand is, all that stuff. There's people out there and software tools out there that could help figure that out for you. Joe: It's not something that a 3PL will do when they've got multiple centers or you'd refer them on to these consultants? Jesse: Yeah, we could do it. For inventory planning, we're building tools for that. It's really complicated to do and to do properly. It's not our core competency. And it's a big responsibility to do that properly. We could totally look at your shipping data and tell you how much you would be saving by using Facility A, Facility B, or them in conjunction. Joe: Okay, so splitting up inventory to the right fulfillment centers you're saving like your client did 15% to 20%. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Any other sort of immediate thoughts come to mind in terms of somebody that either let's assume that they don't even have a 3PL now what should they; I know obviously you want them to go to ShippingTree.co and work with you but if they're already in a relationship with somebody, how do they improve that relationship and any other tips that you can think of? Jesse: So always think of your 3PL partner not just as another vendor, but really as a partner and part of your business and kind of put yourself in their shoes when it comes to the way you send them inventory, the way you keep them in the loop on sales or promotions you're running. Like really consider them like an outsource or your shipping department that's just outsourced. So if you were doing your fulfillment, you wouldn't run like a flash sale and then call down to the warehouse 20 minutes after the flash sale launch and be like, hey, buddy you have 15,000 orders coming down the pipe. You would tell your people in your own company a few days in advance. So do that with your 3PL, help make their jobs a little easier, send them stuff that's barcoded, clearly divided. We deal with a couple of hundred customers and you could imagine how many different items we have in the warehouse. All our merchants are really passionate, but like, I can't tell the difference between print like bandana print 1 and bandana print 2 you know? Joe: Yeah, we always hear stories of Amazon messing products up. I'm sure it happens in 3PLs as well. It's not you. Jesse: It happens but there's things you could do to mitigate that. Like work with them as a true partner and if you sense any pushback in trying to improve the relationship, I would look elsewhere. Joe: Yeah. Can 3PLs do fulfill by merchant with Amazon Prime? Jesse: Yeah. Joe: And are you in that situation or is it not a 3PL, in general, it's more of the product at the 3PL, how does that work? Jesse: Okay, so fulfilled by merchants we could do no problem. And then there's Seller Fulfilled Prime, which is that is actually on the merchants. They have to get their accounts authorized for Seller Fulfilled Prime. Joe: Even if they're using a 3PL? Jesse: Yeah, so their specific Amazon seller account has to be authorized for Seller Fulfilled Prime. Joe: Is that a daunting task or something? Jesse: Yeah, it's at least 90 days, and yeah. Joe: And what's the benefit to that in your opinion? Jesse: So the benefit there is you get the prime badge on your Amazon listings, you kind of get all the benefits of winning the buy box that you'd get with using FBA but the package could be sent out in your own custom packaging. You control the whole process and generally, it's a little cheaper than Amazon; storage wise and stuff like that. Joe: You still have to abide by the terms of services I would imagine. You still don't own the customer, even though you've got all the customer data minus the phone number, I suppose. Is there any advantage to doing Seller Fulfilled Prime using a 3PL in terms of customer data that you get to keep versus just using FBA? Jesse: I don't think so. It's more like a flexibility piece. Joe: Okay. Jesse: So those sellers that were set up with Seller Fulfilled Prime when COVID hit and FBA stopped allowing shipments in, they didn't skip a beat, they kept their Prime badge, all that stuff. Joe: Yeah, okay. Jesse: It's a little bit more secure. Joe: Having control as opposed to letting Amazon have full control of it, yeah. Okay. This has been great. We're up against the clock here, but this is fantastic stuff. I think that anybody out there listening needs to dig deeper into their expenses on the 3PL side. If all you're doing is fulfilled by Amazon, you might want to look at at least a 3PL like Shipping Tree to do kitting and prepping and getting it shipped off to Amazon so you're not paying exorbitant storage fees at Amazon and then as your offline Amazon sales grow running a Shopify side so on and so forth, I think is great to do. So any last-minute thoughts in terms of other things that people could do to benefit themselves with 3PL negotiations and working with them before we wrap this up? Jesse: No. Just be aware of this. Like I said I think the biggest red flag are those proposals you get back that are like two or three pages long with a ton of line items. That's going to be a headache of a relationship for you to manage. Find someone that keeps it simple for you. It's a complicated process. It's my job to simplify that for our merchant customers and find someone that will do that for you. Joe: I got you. Okay, how do folks reach you and your firm, Jesse? Jesse: If you're going to reach out you could email me directly Jesse@ShippingTree.co or go to our website and fill out the form there. Joe: Awesome. I appreciate your time. We'll look forward to a lot of folks reaching out to you as well. Jesse: Cool. Thanks, man. Take it easy.

I'm continuing my quest to inspire as many people as I can, to take full advantage of the time we have during the COVID-19 pandemic, to start to architect their new life. I feel as if I'm beating this concept into the ground but I really feel like this is the universe sending us a gift in disguise, to help us realign our thoughts, our beliefs, our wishes and our goals. We all deserve to be happy and live our best lives doing what we want each and every day. I hope this episodes provides words for encouragement and you take the bull by the horns and create your new, amazing life. https://youtu.be/Qct_Lo5EWNw ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Create Your New Life During the COVID-19 Pandemic Joe: Everybody, thanks for joining me on this podcast. This is going to be a short one, but I wanted to talk about, you know, the struggles that people are having during this time of COVID-19. And I don't want people to give up. I just I feel like everyone's just sort of you don't want to say that it's bad. Not everyone. Joe: But I feel like we're waiting to be rescued. And people are, you know, collecting unemployment, which they have to do, obviously. I'm doing it myself in order to survive. But at the same time, I think if I read the comments that people make and it feels like they're just kind of waiting for things to happen and this is a time to plan. This is a time to think about what your old life looked and felt like. And I think it's time to plan for what your new life should look like and feel like. Joe: And I put up post about this because I'm working hard on it myself. And I do that with the with not like I'm saying, hey, look what I'm doing or are bragging or anything. Nothing like that at all. Like, I haven't even really shown a lot of the things that I've been working on ya know,  behind the curtain. But it's more about trying to inspire people to do the same thing. I really feel like my purpose is to help and to inspire. And so these posts that I put up carefully think about and I don't just grab a quote from someone that I've heard in the past or whatever, I actually sit. And when I write my Instagram post, they take a lot of time and effort and thought I usually do them later on in the evening because I reflect on the day and what has occurred. So my routine now is pretty much getting up early every morning, going to the gym every day. Joe: I purposely am getting up and doing the things that I need to do to continue to stay healthy. Joe: And then I come back and I work on all of the projects that I have going. One of them being this podcast, I'm trying to make this podcast better. I'm working on reaching out to guests all the time. Really great content for all of you. And at the same time, I'm working on things that I can't talk about right now, but it's super exciting. Joe: So when I put up any of the posts that I put up on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter or even a video on YouTube, it's I do it out of the want to inspire because I feel I could be completely wrong. But I feel like I've heard from people that I don't know really well all the way to people that I do know really well that it's a waiting game and I'm not sure whatever one is waiting for. I think that this is the time to create the next iteration of your life. And I don't know how to to express this more. I feel like it's just something that keeps eating away at me. I just it's drives me everyday to know that for me, this was I even wrote the post tonight on Instagram. This was a gift in disguise for me. Joe: It has given me the time off to do all the things that I haven't been able to do. I don't know if I would have ever gotten this podcast launched if it wasn't for the pandemic that hit, because I was so busy running my day to day business and I was able to get that done and just work more on myself. Joe: I get to spend a little bit more time at the gym. The same thing that a lot of you been doing. You're cooking at home more. You're spending more time with family. You're reading maybe more. You're listening to audiobooks. You're listening to podcasts, whatever it might be. Joe: But I feel like this is truly a reset that you need to take advantage. Joe: And I don't want anyone to think that there's going to be someone on the other side of this, it's going to be there to rescue you. This is the time where you have to grab the bull by the horns and get it done. Joe: Just create a sheet of paper that has pros and cons and on the top should be the thing that you would do if you could wake up everyday and do it, whether it paid you or it didn't pay you. And you just have to go for it. This is it. You just you don't want this time to be over with and you've done nothing with this time off. Yeah. Joe: You've rested you've you've tried to stay safe from, you know, catching COVID-19. You've hung out with family. You've maybe read more books. You've maybe hopefully even better as you go on eating out all the time, you're cooking home cooked meals. Joe: But despite all of that, this was the time to use to plan how you are going to spend the remaining years you have on this earth. And that's the way I've looked at it. Joe: And again, this has not been pleasant for a lot of people. Loss of their job, loss of income, loss of so many different things, the loss of family members, but. Joe: Again, life will keep going on no matter what happens. So you have to look at this and say this is going to be the time that I use to create this amazing life. So when we come out the other side of this, you are already on the onramp to what you've always wish you could do. Just think about waking up every day and saying, "Wow, I get to do this again, how lucky am I?" Instead of waking up and going, "Oh, I gotta have to drive 40 minutes and punch a clock in and deal with people that I don't like at work doing things that I don't like to do." It's just an awful feeling. And I don't think we were ever meant to live this way. I don't know how we got programmed in the wrong direction to just punch a clock or do things we don't want to do. Just to make money to make a living. There's just has to be another way. I mean, I know there is you see you see people doing it all the time. People that have just created this life, this amazing life that they have come up with. And they believed in themselves wholeheartedly that they follow their dream and they just kept working on it. And it doesn't have to be mainstream. That has to be what makes your heart sing. It's just like whatever your soul wants you to do. So I hope you you listen to this. I know I'm sort of pounding this in, but I don't know how else to get through to some, some people out there that are just hoping they're going to be rescued at the end of all of this or they're their crappy job that they hated is going to come back or whatever the case might be. Joe: So I want to inspire you. You're hearing my words. You've you've subscribed or downloaded the podcast and you're listening to this episode. And what I want this episode to do is inspire you to start to plan to do whatever it is that you've always, always wanted to do. I think it's that simple. I think it's making a list and saying, if tomorrow I could wake up and I could rub the side of a genie bottle and I got three wishes, instead of them being different things, I would make those three wishes, the three ways that you would want to live your life and then just create a column of pros and cons and figure out, well, if I did this, you know, could I handle this, this and this and what are all the good things? And if I did this, what are all the things that I might have to let go of? But I really believe that we've been brainwashed to think we can't do what we love and we can't live a life of happiness and wake up everyday knowing that whatever it is we do, we love and we're happy with and we're not we have no self-doubt and we have no regrets. Joe: So I hope you'll take what I'm saying here and really put forth the effort to use this time that we have. Well, COVID-19, is still around in that pandemic and things are shut down and the world is still pretty much at a hall to design your new life moving forward and then really put the work in so that you're already, like I said, on the on ramp before things go back to whatever they're going to go back to. I really wish everyone could wake up and just feel happy about their life and just be really grateful for what they have. And right now, I don't feel that's the case. I personally am really happy where I am at the moment, working really hard to move my life forward. I have so many amazing things that I want to do. So many plans in the works. I'm super grateful for where I am at the moment and I just want everyone to get a taste of that, because I think once you realize how easy it is to live a life that you create, you'll look at yourself in the mirror and go, why did it take so long to do this? So my wish for you is that you find the perfect plan for your new life. You execute it and you realize that you can be happy from this point forward doing exactly what you love each and every day. Joe: I wish you all the best.

Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. ********** Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/wtg_TV3j_wA ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Richard: Basically on a whim. A weird situation develops. And I get a phone call from the then band teacher of all things at Arcadia. This is the late 90s, I'm giving away my age a little bit, I suppose, but we didn't know each other directly, but he had also gone to U of A at one point. And we've heard of each other and for a variety reasons, it just wasn't happy in Tucson. And he says, "Hey, I have a situation, would you be interested in moving up to teach here at Arcadia? [Richard] "Sure!" [He says] "You want to know what the gig is?" [Richard] "Not really" So we're three weeks into the school year at this point. So I come up and I spent a day with him at the school getting a sense for what it is and I walk away thinking, ok, this could be kind of cool. I want the orchestra too. Because that's where my love was, so, I, I meet the principal, great guy, Jim Lee. And he hires me and in the conversation I said, "Look, I'm so excited for it," it's like a first real, it's a big gig for me, it's a huge thing. And it's I'm going to, you know, bigger city, better music town, I'm thinking all these different things, but I tell him, like, "I know the orchestra teachers a couple years from retiring, I want writer first refusal." And he's, you know, whatever, but he, he agrees, thinking probably I'll forget and I can remember a long interview process, with parents and everybody else. Basically what happens is, is after my first year, a couple of things happened that kind of get things a little weird. So I'm still trying to do my own thing in the world of regular music but I don't know enough about the Phoenix music scene at the time I was trying to hold down this job, that is awesome but kind of beaten me up just because I'm new at it. So I make a whole bunch of changes, you know, he had a very, very big jazz program, which is awesome! I love jazz, but as a director, which I don't like the word director, if it makes me feel like a traffic cop, if I can still want to Greg's themes, but I didn't that wasn't where I wanted to be. So I morphed into more like wind ensembles and we ended some pretty heavy stuff. And there's a bit of a love hate with it, but you can see like the level of musicianship. And I'm like everybody who's gonna read notes, like we're not playing games with this, lot of wrote stuff, a lot of, you know, play it based on your, you know, improvising skills, which is fine and you need to do that as well. But I had a certain level standards and I was still pretty, pretty much full of my own brilliance at that point. I mean, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: And this Richard: And Joe: Was just band at this point. Richard: Was that Joe: Was this just Richard: This Joe: Band Richard: Is band Joe: At Richard: This Joe: This Richard: Is that Joe: Point? Richard: First Joe: Ok. Richard: Year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So the second year, two things happen. One is Jim, I guess, decides the principle that I must not have completely destroyed things. And he comes to me and says, "Look, we have this opportunity to expand your contract. We don't have a choir teacher anymore. Can you take over the choir?" I very foolishly said Joe: Well. Richard: "Yes!" It was bad idea, it  was a bad idea for the kids. It was bad idea for I mean, it was just bad. It was. It was. It was. It was well-intentioned... if had that opportunity now, because I do a lot of stuff with a lot of vocalists now, now I could do it and do it comfortably and make that experience significant in a way for those kids that they would be glad, I think that they had it, not then! Oh, my gosh, not even not, I mean, like, literally, I want you to imagine the worst possible experience for those students and then be grateful if they would have had even half of that level of a caliber of experience. I mean, it was, it was, it was horrible. But the other thing he asks me to do is take over the guitar class slash club. Because Joe: Interesting. Richard: He knows that I gig a little bad and I do the singer-songwriter thing a little bit and the studio stuff a little bit, he knows I have these other interests, but he doesn't really know to what extent. And you know, I'm not responsible basically anybody but myself in terms of my time at that point. I don't have any real you know, why not? And it's money and and it's a gig and I like the school and I like the people there and I like the community and da a da a da. So "Sure, why not?" So I take on this whole thing and basically what happens is, things start to build and eventually you wind up with, you know, I have two full symphony orchestras, winds, strings, percussion, all in the same rehearsal hall every day, all year round. We're still doing a marching band, while my version of marching band, which I have been justifiably criticized many times, I'm not a marching band guy, I'm a, I mean, I love the art of it. But I was I like, you know, one year we wrote our own show, the kids and you know, one year, you know, we were doing crazy, we were, it was just nuts, it was you know, they wanted to do rock shows the last two years. And I was kind of moving away from that because I you know, you just you know what you know and you know what you are Joe: Yep, Richard: Or what you're not. Joe: Yep. Richard: So I was like, okay, we'll do rock shows, but if we're going to do rock shows, you don't need a conductor, that's where literally we're wasting a ah resource, right? So, so we had a drum line, our drum line became our click track, screwed up everything in our scores because you didn't get a caption award and you didn't get points, they deducted points for not having a drum major. Joe: WOW! Richard: So it killed our scores. But musically, I think those kids benefited from that. Because that sense of internal clock and time and how you synchronize and what that does to intonation and every other musical element you can think of. I mean, all the things that you as a very seasoned studio player, let alone all your live work when you're sitting there in the control room, listening to playback on that and you're going, you know, because somebody can't...you know, Joe: Yeah, Richard: I know, you know, but Joe: Sometimes Richard: But Joe: It's me, Richard: well... Joe: So I do know. Richard: I doubt it. No, seriously. But my point is, is that, that, that was sort of where things started to change up a little bit. The guitar program is growing crazy. Some Joe: Still Richard: In Joe: To Richard: Some Joe: This Richard: Ways Joe: Day, Richard: Because it Joe: Are then. Richard: This is then Joe: Then Richard: This is Joe: Ok. Richard: Then. So we've got the orchestra building. We've got you know, there's Joe: A Richard: Now there's Joe: Wind Richard: Piano, Joe: Dancer. Richard: There's, you know, everything's building up and we've got songwriting I introduce because for me I've always been kind of a cool you play an instrument, what can you make with it. Well but it's the clarinet. I don't care, what can you make with it? You know, I don't, it doesn't matter to me. So guitar to me, you know, the first year or two was very much about just technique and then I got very much in to, I don't, I don't care about this technique. Let's write songs, let's make music. And it just so it seems kind of going and going, going and eventually it just, the circumstances are such, that there's basically too much to do for one person or even two people. My oldest son, who came in a minute ago, was born without going too far, but he was born 10 weeks early. And he's obviously, you saw he's fine. But at the time and I'm like, I need a change. I've been at Arcadia at that point for nine years. Joe: You Richard: There Joe: Basically Richard: Is a point. Joe: Have said yes to every single thing they've asked you to do. Richard: Well, Joe: Ok. Richard: But I've also enjoyed the challenge. I mean Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, the truth is, is I enjoy the challenge. I'll tell you, this is heading to something that you're probably going to go either think, WOW!, that's really cool or are you out of your mind or possibly both. But in any case, we, you know, there's an opportunity, that our principal has changed, and we have Anne-Marie Woolsey, Dr. Woolsey is there. And I start talking about this idea. And the idea is why, I'm starting to really and maybe it's just because of my own state of mind, but we're doing all these things with, you know, we have what we call the songwriters and we have the more traditional ensembles, it's not CMAS yet, but it's in its early stages of existing. And I'm actually still, I have I have a couple of now what I would say close friends that are graduates from that time who are incredibly supportive people you might even talk to, you just like, like I'm like, so I'll just, local guys like Thomas Brennaman and Alex Fry and Zach Tonkin and there's a ton of them, there's a ton, Ed Bakerman, Addie. She's still gigging all the time all over the country, she's brilliant. I mean, there's, there's, there's a ton of these people, but Joe: And Richard: They're Joe: This Richard: On one Joe: Is late, Richard: Side of. Joe: This is late. Richard: This is this is still within those nine years. Joe: Right. So this would be since you started there. Richard: This is like 08, 07, 08 kind Joe: Right. Richard: Of thing. Joe: Right. OK. Richard: And I am starting to get and it's just kind of I think it's a culmination of things. Most music teachers at a school are, you know, the average is less than five years, I'm at nine, which isn't like good or bad, it just kind of is what it is. But I'm also really struggling. I realize now in retrospect with this dual musical experience, because you know, this is at a time where these devices are starting to come of age, streaming is starting to become a thing and on and on. And you, I just, other people have phrased it so much better than I have but just this idea that the kids, it's done in their rehearsal and they explore all this music, but then as soon as the rehearsals over, they're going home and what are they listening to? Everything but what they're rehearsing. Joe: Right. Richard: And I understand the argument of well, but that's why you need to have those ensembles and do, and I don't think that's necessarily wrong. But fundamentally, there's something missing, if you are, if you, if the real world has one opportunity and the educational world has one that is completely diametrically opposed to that. And we're talking about something that ultimately comes down to a cultural element, a tell your story, if you will, element, which is what I think all art really comes down to. And that's being effectively either ignored or dismissed or in many cases, I would say, mutated into something that basically makes somebody feel, makes a student feel like somehow their musical instincts are either, I don't know, at best immature. But, you know, you talk about a terrible amount of disenfranchisement and disenfranchisement, you're talking about a terrible amount of just not, they think, they feel like it's not legit, like they're not legitimate somehow, that's their choice, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, or we don't do that here, kid, that kind of thing. Joe: There's a misalignment. Richard: Yeah, and Joe: It's Richard: It doesn't Joe: Just weird. Richard: Mean anything if you walk the logic through, it doesn't make any sense. And yet, it is still essentially perpetrated across the world and a lot of ways, and I just was like, got to do something, now I, you could argue I went too far to the extreme and I regret but, you know, for all the things we've accomplished and all the things that we've done and, you know, the program is basically now I said, okay, look, I've got all these songwriters, we've got this, this is what I've become kind of like an industry history class. We've got the guitar players. You know, we had the pianist. We've got, we, we have this contemporary thing happening anyway. So I went to the principal and I basically said, "Can I just walk away from the band and orchestra part?" It's become, you know, "It's just not me anymore the way we'd like it to be," the politics with the parents and everything else is getting sick, I was just tired Joe: Yes. Richard: Of it. I don't do well with it anyway. That's why, I just, I'm just, I'm very confrontation adverse. It's just, just naturally. And then you get into like high school band and orchestra parent land, with all due respect and it just wasn't, it wasn't gonna be, I wasn't gonna last long without losing my mind. Plus again, Grayson, ten weeks early. So I held on for one more year and I remember very clearly that last concert we did, you know, the good, the farewell symphony, the Haydn at the, as the last piece. And I remember choreographing it and nobody knew about what I was doing, except for my very good friend, who's still my good friend, the theater teacher who was running the lights for us in the on the stage and the head of the school security who's still there, Jeri Eshelman. I told the two of them what I was gonna do, and that was it. Go through the whole concert, do the whole senior recognition thing, the whole thank you's and all of it and then we do, traditionally, we would do one last song. We do the one last song which the farewell symphony, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with, but literally the way Haydn wrote it was that as it's ending, the players get up and leave the stage until eventually Joe: Right. Richard: Not Joe: Right. Richard: Even the conductor is there and it's just I believe it's just the single first violinist if I remember right. So we did that and I added one element. I walked off the stage and very quietly walked out the stage door to my car and went home. Joe: Of course you did. Richard: I just left. It's kind of rude, I suppose. Joe: It's awesome! Richard: But, but, but it is. Joe: And you're still there Richard: Yes. Joe: And you're still employed by that school. Richard: I am, I am, but doing something very different. And it has been, I mean, you know, we could have an entire series of podcasts on the politics of what has gone on. Joe: Oh, Richard: It has Joe: I Richard: Been. Joe: Can Richard: It's Joe: Only imagine. Richard: It's been. I used to get really angry about it. I still am frustrated by it at times. But now I'm more like, I don't, I'm almost more entertained. Because there are too many people now that like yourself who are seasoned industry professionals or their education professionals, who see the concept of what what we've built there and very specifically say that concept is important and vital and necessary so that, you know, you get enough music education, professors and universities and like I said, actual, real in the industry, people saying this is what should happen. And all the arguments become a little bit silly after a while. So now Joe: Yup. Richard: I'm just kind of like, really? You want to line up, you know, your cynical view against of, forget me, you're going to tell all these other people they're wrong!? Joe: Yeah. Richard: WOW! Even in my most arrogant, I wasn't going to do that. So it is what it is. But, you know, it's, it's, it's, it has evolved a lot. I mean, you know, if you look at the setup and even now, I mean, obviously with the closure, Joe: But Richard: Things are different. Joe: Wait, Richard: But. Joe: Before you get past this, so you, you, you state you said you were gonna do one more year. Richard: This is the end of that year. Joe: Ok. Richard: So this is the end of that year. So I basically, you know, and, you know, I made several mistakes, big ones! One of them was, the then head of the district's fine arts and I've talked to Anne Marie since about this and she agrees that she should never have agreed to this. Basically said, ok, we'll support you doing this, but you have to stay away from your old program because you're still going to be on campus and the new teacher needs the opportunity, because, because that kind of community of students is it's a, it's a very family kind of thing. Well, what happened is it became very confrontational between the two programs. My new program is the new "IT." The new teacher is struggling for a lot of different reasons. Put in a situation that she cannot possibly succeed in. You know, imagine being a young teacher and they give you a class of band, a class of orchestra that they've separated now, you have a percussion ensemble, you have a piano class, I think she had a computer class, I mean, it was literally like we're giving you all of the leftovers. It was Joe: Yes. Richard: It was a terrible gig. Nobody is going to do well in that situation under any circumstances, period. It's just. Joe: Right. Richard: A nightmare scenario. But what winds up happening is it creates a lot of friction and a lot of confrontation. And I again, I am so committed to, we have to prove that this thing should exist because I like in my gut, I know it should but I don't have proof of concept yet. There's nobody doing it at a high school, the way I wanted to do it, you know, there was, there were programs that I had found it, then maybe, maybe this is more my inability at the time to search Google effectively. But, you know, you had people doing production. Absolutely! You had the technical side of it and you had people having like composition classes or songwriting classes, even rock band classes or whatever they call them. But I wasn't finding anybody that was looking at it in a more homogenous way, in a more holistic way of it needs to all be, it's all of it, you know. And so I was kind of starting from scratch. I took a lot of college curriculum. I talked to a lot of people that were in the industry and just kind of threw things against the wall to see what would stick. But in those early years, as I'm getting, you know, all these criticisms and destroying this, you know, you're killing the orig...you know, the traditional program, all these things that are provably false and everything else. But that reputation did build for quite a while and I I was like constantly biting my tongue because, again, you know, if I could avoid the confrontation and put it off for Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little while, I'd rather do that bad habit. Don't you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Kids don't do that if you're listening, don't do that! But I know, so I just, I really I struggle with that a lot. But we kept building things and one of the things that I saw, a couple of things that I've discovered in all of this, which is that, kind of like what I was saying earlier about the shows we did even during the COVID closure, that are very imperfect. If you, if you were to sit down and look at those shows that we did just these last several weeks, you could be arguably disappointed in a lot of there's, there's glitches and sound and some other things like but this is not what, don't you deal with audio and all this other stuff? But that wasn't really the point. And so we would have we have shows and in some shows there's people that are like, wow, you put that act onstage? Really? I'm like, yeah, is that kid now has been on stage and now we can move from there. Process has to matter more. I get in the professional world why it can't on some level but at the same time, boy, I wish it could. I'm Joe: Yeah, Richard: Sure you do too. And a Joe: Yeah. Richard: Lot of ways just knowing you, you know, I mean, you don't, you get duplication and you get repeats and you get even a certain level of perfection, but you don't get real originality unless you're willing to deal with process over product. I mean, you have to really embrace it. You know, Little Richard just died, as you know and it really, I mean, aside from I mean, is there anybody he did not influence in some way? I mean, literally, the man's legacy is endless. The other thing that kind of is horrible to say, but we're getting to a point where we are going to be out of truly original musicians, truly innovative people, there are very few people and I'm not even saying it's an age thing, it's just who's out there doing things that you go, WOW!, I've never heard that before in that context. And they're just, you know, there's a lot people perfecting it. There's a lot of people doing incredibly viable things and wonderful things musically. But to truly be innovative like that. But anyway, I'm so sorry I get Joe: No Richard: On tangents. I'm Joe: Better. Richard: So sorry Joe: It's okay. Richard: He I'm so, so, so this idea of, you know, process becomes really, really important and we're building it. And then. And what I was gonna say is, is that. Joe: But at this point, I'm trying to just make sure that both the viewers and listeners and I'm clear, though, that that you have this woman who is now responsible for these various things like band and orchestra and whatever else she was given that you have now been given the license, you know, the stamp of approval by the principal or Richard: And the district. Joe: The Richard: Yeah, Joe: District Richard: Yeah. Joe: To create this program that involves what at that time? Richard: Ok. So I you know, I'm sorry. Thank you for pulling back. So there actually is another player, analyst named Mitch Simmons, who needs to be mentioned. He is the director of the district's what's called Career and Technical Education Department at the time. And Mitch is brilliant and wonderful and will self-described himself as not having a musical bone in his body. But when I made this absurd proposal to him and I gave him like a 20 page document, like I had a curriculum and I had standards that I had adapted and which later wound up becoming basically the first draft that the state used and is still using for a lot of, a lot of things. Thankfully, they've had other people come in and perfect them and not just be stuck with my mediocrity, but. But Mitch, Mitch looked at and he goes, we so need this, this is the bridge, we've been looking for the bridge. Arts and here's the thing, everybody looks at career technical education, they get so hung up on the t the technology part. That's, in my view, as I get a lot, I get on a lot trouble with actually CTE people. I get, I get in trouble with the arts people for one thing and then I get in trouble for CTE people with the other. The "T" is, is completely to me, is nearly, it needs to be like lower case and in the smallest font possible. It's the "C" it's the career part. Joe: Right. Richard: Where's the job? Mitch saw it even better, like I understood, like it was my idea. But he saw other things in it and he's like "You", he's like, "Oh, my gosh, we can get, kids could get jobs in these industries." I'm like, "Yeah, we could!" And he gave me, I was, it was a perfect storm. He gave me the flexibility to just screw it up and rework it and reiterate it and retry and my principal did the same thing. And coming back to these shows that we had done, I told you I knew I would loop around back to my tangent. One Joe: And Richard: Of the Joe: This Richard: Things Joe: Is still Richard: That I. Joe: 2009. Richard: We're Joe: Is Richard: Still Joe: This Richard: In 2009, Joe: Ok? Richard: But Joe: Ok. Richard: It relates to something that just happened in the last few weeks. When you have students go through a process where we start with essentially nothing and they go through a self derived process or a self adapted process at the very least and then at the end there's a thing. I don't care what that thing is, that is powerful and wonderful and awesome and so that when you have like we would have shows, we still sometimes have shows that are just like, oh, you got to be kidding me. Because underneath that, there's also the, you've got to be kidding me! Joe: Yeah. Richard: Like, I mean, it works in both directions because it's derived and, and one of the things that I've learned is, teachers and educators who live exclusively and vicariously through their students are doomed to get burned out, frustrated and every other negative you can possibly think of. And I, I am committed to that completely. I don't think you can be competitive and creative at the same time. I believe that is like one of my very big mantras. I think that, you have to be your own creative, like I have struggled a lot, like, like thank God for therapy a lot, with not feeling like I've been able to do my own creative stuff. And I've sort of over the last year and it's been a struggle, it's made this year very weird and very difficult in some ways to say, like wait, I need to find a way to have my own creative outlet because it's not healthy. Like, it just isn't healthy. And whether that creative outlet is me throwing a video up on YouTube or a song up on SoundCloud that four people listened to or four million people listened to is kind of not really the issue. But that, we go from nothing through the process that a thing exists. It's all, it all ties together in this weird Zen ying yang thing. But as we grow, you know, we start doing all kinds of live events. We are, you know, we start very cobbled together. The early parts of the program in the early versions of the program, I didn't let the kids record anything in the first year. It was all learn an instrument. Keeps Joe: Did you even Richard: Them. Joe: Have the equipment Richard: Oh, yeah. Joe: That early? Richard: I mean, it was it wasn't what we have now. Don't Joe: No. Richard: Get me Joe: But Richard: Wrong. Joe: But you went Richard: Yeah. Joe: In there and you said, I need this, this, this, this and this to make this happen. Richard: So we started they got me a bunch of iMacs and we got some interfaces and we got Pro Tools early on because I know we're gonna do it for real and I was very committed to the legitimacy. Overcommitted, possibly, that I allowed other things to suffer. That battle that I know, the politics of things that I allowed myself to fall into the traps of these circular logic arguments that now I would never allow myself to do but, you know. Joe: Guy. Richard: Past is behind us and what's been has been, you know, that is what it is, but. But we just kept evolving and it's still evolves and, you know, we've we've, we've gone so far, as you know, there were years, the marching band kind of fell into a state of disarray and almost non-existence for several years. We started playing all of the home games, kind of like mini Super Bowls. Literally wheeling stages out and putting together shows for that. We still do them once a year. The marching band is back and is now for the last several years, like wins every award on the planet, literally. And God love them for it. It's amazing! Not my, you know, but that wasn't me. And that needs to be ok. I have some people that are still mad at me about that too, but whatever I don't, you know. But we, you know, we can go into studios, we go into every couple of years now we've been going to Blackbird Studios in Nashville this is like, in Nashville. This is a multi-million dollar facility. The last time we were there in February, just before all the closure happened, we were, I mean this is how far the things have evolved, this is possibly the greatest, I've gotten a lot of big compliments and they all mean a lot to me. We befriended Steve Marcantonio because he's the uncle of one of my former students. I don't know if you know, forgive the namedrop but Steve, I mean, like he got his start on John Lennon's last album. What, I mean, so you mean he's, the man knows his stuff! He's a genius and the nicest guy in the world. Like, like unbelievably giving of his time. He has come in and produced our sessions at or engineered our sessions at Blackbird and supervised them while we're there. So we're like one of the greatest recording spaces on the planet with one of the most gifted engineers to ever live and it's a bunch of high school students and me. Joe: That's amazing. Richard: Yeah. Life, Joe: How many Richard: Eight life. Joe: How many go to that trip? Richard: We took like 25 or so, this time 30. Joe: And how do you how do they get chosen? Richard: They just decide they want to go. Joe: Ok. Richard: We make it through tax credit. I have, I'm not going to do the cookie dough thing. I'm just not going to. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hey, I just I can't do it, but and it's expensive and it sucks and we try to scholarship where we can, Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, we don't take nearly as many. But, but it's an opportunity. We do other things, we go to the conservatory recording arts and sciences. I'm looking at doing more. There's a lot of great stuff here in Phoenix for that opportunity Joe: Right. Richard: Or similar opportunities. But there is something cool about it, I mean, Nashville is Nashville. Let's not kid ourselves. It's just it's a great if Joe: Get. Richard: I could move anywhere and know I could still make a living, Joe: Yeah. Richard: I'd totally I'd totally being Nashville. I Joe: Yeah. Richard: Just. What a great place! But what you say is, is that this is this, this, this is unbelievable to me. So Steve walks in and he's giving the students an orientation and he's talking about all this gear and he gets about two minutes into it and then he looks at me and then he looks at them and he literally goes, "What? I'm wasting our time, your kids already know all this!" Because he's like talking Joe: Nice. Richard: About how, like the studios are set up and everything else. Ok, so that's not even the biggest compliment. We start getting everything set up and the boards placed and you know, Blackbird's provided interns and these are very highly skilled professionals and we've got Steve, ok? I have a couple of my more experienced students, one in particular who's she's like, I don't even think she's five feet tall, she's a graduating senior. She's just really quiet, sweet little girl, Emma. And she's up at the board and he just walks away. Like, not like I'm quitting, he walks away and he leans over to me and goes, "You don't need me." Joe: What's so funny? Richard: He goes, "She's got this!", he's like, "I'm going to just sit here and listen and I'll give some suggestions." And literally, that's how we spent an entire day recording, I don't know, 9 or 10 tracks or whatever it was of the students, some of them are great, some of them not so much, it doesn't really matter. But, you know, he, and it wasn't because he was lazy. Steve is like the least, you know, like between the two of you, it would be a really tough pick of who works harder. I mean, he wasn't just walking away because he didn't feel like helping, he was just like I'm going to give them the chance at this and this is a like it's like an 18, 20 million dollar place. This was not like, you know, these weren't inexpensive facilities with inexpensive gear. This was, you know, potentially massive, you know, liability and he's like "They have, they have this, just just do what you're doing." Joe: And I assume Emma is running a Pro Tools session? Richard: Oh, yeah, yeah, Joe: Right! Richard: A but, but mostly running the board, you know, on the side. I think it was an API. Joe: Ok, Richard: Something worth like more than my house, like Joe: Sure. Richard: 10 times over Joe: Yeah. Richard: In a room, you know, I think at one point Queen had recorded in the same room. I mean, this is not you know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And who knows who else. I mean, this is unbelievable! I mean, Joe: Right. Richard: It was, but that to me, that was one of those moments where I was like, ok, the ups and downs of everything that may have gone on, clearly, again, at least as terms in terms of the concept, wWe're doing ok. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: If Steve Steve Marcantonio feels like he can let my students run a session on that equipment...ok Joe: Yeah, Richard: I'm going to take that for the win. I just Joe: Sure. Richard: I just don't think Joe: So the program Richard: I. Joe: At this point still in 2009 involves what different aspects? And how do kids get into it or not be in it? Richard: Ok, so I and I still, as much as I can have a, if you like anything at all about music in any capacity, I want you in here. Joe: Ok. Richard: If you're hard to work with, this is probably not going to go well. If you're, if you're lazy, that's going to be ok, as long as you're not blaming me for your laziness. If you own up to it, we'll find a way to make it work. I know that there's a lot of people will say, you know what? "You got to drive the kids, you got to drive the kids." And you know what? That's probably true. I just can't do it because my brain keeps going back to like I get, I get, I get hung up on the I, "You don't want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" I don't, what? what? "Why would you not want to pick up that instrument and play it!?" It literally, doesn't, I can't, I can't sort it, I wish I could, I know that maybe that's a cop out. But basically, at this point, everybody comes in and it's a year of intense, got to play instruments, got to play instruments, got to play instruments. There's a lot of benefits to that. But I start running into a philosophical problem, which maybe I needed to get over myself. But, you know, at the time, the original name of the program was not Creative Musical Arts and Sciences, it was Contemporary Music and Sound. The word contemporary has a lot of baggage, I soon found out. And I also felt like it wasn't really accurate. I wanted the word creative. Joe: Super important. Richard: It needed, it just needed to be there. So there you have the name change. And what, what starts to happen over the preceding years and you know, we get better at producing more material. We are proving ourselves more and more so we can get a hold of more equipment and things of that nature. And all the while, in the back of my head, is this creative name thing happens. You start referring to like what I wanted to be, which is a truly open, creative platform. And so what happens is I start to look at that first year and I go, well, wait a minute, I'm setting up roadblocks for these kids, well-intentioned roadblocks. And I think from a pedagogy standpoint, the idea of you have to rock or a rock...you to walk before you can run. I get it! I understand it! You know, you got to start with, you know, plan like, you know, your 50's kind of surf beats before you're gonna go play Tom Sawyer kind of stuff or whatever, you know, you're not you know, you're not playing a Purdie shuffle right out of the gate. You know, it's I mean, there's you know, and I understand that. But, and maybe this is a, a nod to the reality of the world that students currently live in and maybe maybe it's wrong of me to to say, well, it's ok but there is a, if you're going to be truly open and creative, then you need to be open and creative. Richard: And I started to develop this process where I would look at the program and anything we would want to do or anything the kid would propose and I would say, "Does this move their process forward or not?" And I started to look at the first year and that massive intensity on learning to play an instrument. And I looked at the well, ok, it could be argued that the long term benefits outweigh the short term frustrations but I'm loosing kids. And I'm also, I realize the thing that made me stop having just a year long exploration, if you will, of how to play an instrument, was I realized that the very thing that I was railing against in the traditional music world that, you know, you got to stop telling kids that just because they want to, like the turntables thing, is somehow illegitimate musically. I realize that in my own way I was doing that. And there are so many graduates now that I have been so tempted to try to find on social media and be like, hey, you probably don't remember me, that jerk music teacher you had for a year or two in high school but I wanted to tell you, I was wrong about this part of the approach. And I'm constantly looking like, to me, this is cathartic, like I will confess that in a heartbeat. Whereas other people what are you doing? What do you know? But I'm I can't, I can't, I have a hard... Richard: I look at the program right now. I look at the program in terms of this closure and I even thought, we were doing a workshop yesterday with a bunch of students on some stuff and we got on the topic of it and just their frustrations and the whole thing and I said, honestly, I'm not looking for false compliments here, I said "I would give myself a C plus for how I've executed things as the instructor, as the facilitator." And I'm pretty good at this stuff, I actually have been consulting for years with other people on how to move their game forward and you know, weird situations or whatever. And I'd only give myself a C plus. And, you know, that's really made me think. But in any case, it all comes back to this open creative platform idea. And so what I realized is that when I tell a kid, look, you're going to spend a year really getting good at guitar so that in year two we can start writing and recording. What I've actually said to them is your ideas aren't worthy yet. And the more I thought about it, the more I got really upset with myself. And I just basically decided that whatever happens, happens but I'm not going to do that anymore. And if a kid comes in and all they can do is grab a single drumstick and whack a snare drum in time with their friend. Go back to that Marcus Mumford kick drum idea Joe: Yeah, Richard: A little Joe: Yeah. Richard: Bit, if that's all they can do? We're going to legitimize that because and here's what I found. It's like a slingshot a little bit. Yeah, they seem like they're almost moving backwards in their musical skill set because you're not pushing that but what seems to happen is when you legitimize it a couple of things happened, including they get self-motivated. Because that kid that starts just on that snare drum hitting out time, if they stick with that in the context of I'm making music with my friend, they will get it in time, and then once that's in time, they're going to go, "What happens if I pick up another drumstick and now I've got one in each hand?" And now we have, you know, doubled the rhythmic possibilities. But they're looking at it through the perspective of what can I do with it musically, not all about technique. Technique can't be the "T" for technique can't be important, just like the "T" for technology can't be important. It just can't! The creativity, the career, the career part has to be the over shouting or over overarching thing and it has to be overshadowing everything else on, as far as I'm concerned, a multi expo, an exponential level. It just has to be! So I've continued to move into that. So now the technique is covered differently. I have what I call the, I just, I call it the GAC should be the GEC. It's G, E minor and C and the premise is you're going to learn G, E minor and C or you're going to learn how to keep a very basic beat to somebody else who's learning G, E, minor and C and we're going to have you make a piece of music with those three really basic chords that are all white keys on a piano, that you can play with one finger on a couple of strings on a uke or a bass or a guitar, or you're gonna you know, you're gonna sing unison tones if you're a vocalist or match it with that clarinet or I don't care, it's not about that. It's about seeing the musical connections with somebody else. You are going to collab, that's the other thing, the collaboration part. I can keep bringing on all these "C" words, but it really. They'll become, the self motivation will make up for it. The other thing, too, is, you know, if I want to play Beethoven, I need a certain amount of technique or I'm not getting Beethoven, I acknowledge that, that's important. There is an art to that, that cannot be overstated. But I don't require Beethoven to express myself. And I think a lot of people get confused about that. And I think a lot of people don't understand the importance of it. I think. well, heck, Beethoven himself changed things so radically because he himself believed that he should express himself the way he felt he should express. I mean, I mean like literally by ironically moving away from Beethoven, where if we do it, I think in this context, we're actually paying an odd sort of homage to him Joe: All right. What he believed Richard: Philosophically Joe: In. Richard: in terms of music. And it's just evolved from there. I would rather see a kid get up and play something that's theirs, that is imperfect. But that is them. Then have a kid get up there and feel like, well, it doesn't sound like it's supposed to because that's not what the recording sounded like. Who cares? That's not what it's for. I found over the course, you know, as it's as this is as grown. It was interesting over that, we're finished out. The school year ends next week. But I've been having weekly scheduled workshops that I have kids come into when they can. I should have probably and this is part of my C plus or C minus that I'd give myself. I made them essentially optional as long as they kept up with the asynchronous assignments and stuff. But what I found happened was, is a lot of kids are showing up to these things, just for the sense of showing up to something. You know, we're having conversations that are Joe: To Richard: Rooted Joe: See their Richard: In Joe: Friends Richard: Music. Joe: And. Richard: Yeah, but, but, but, but that's, that's OK. Like, like that's turning into good things. Or I'll go out and frequently what happens is we'll have our session, we'll be talking, we'll come to the end of it, I'll have to go on to something else with another group or whatever and they'll be saying, "Hey, can you hit me up real quick? You know, open up another Zoom?" Or they'll do it on Dischord or whatever and, you know, let's play around some ideas or stuff. So it's, they're still making connections and if they use the workshops for that, do I really have to care that they didn't present the project, you know, in the same circumstance? They submitted the project, will take a look at it or we'll do it in a different workshop. It's ok. I think things like that have to matter more. What I was gonna say and I know, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna hit your two and a half hour mark. I'm so sorry! Joe: So Richard: I mean, I'm, I'm embarrassed. Joe: It's okay...No not at all Richard: I do have to, but I do have to share one other part of the program that has evolved since just last year. And I'm glad you're sitting down for this, because when I describe it to you, it's almost comically funny, but I mean to preface it by telling you that I am now so committed to this because I see the open creative platform element, in such a different way now, that I am, I'm well into my career as an educator. I'm not that old, but I'm old enough. This has given me so much of an interest in what could the next phase of this CMAS program be that I can't even begin to tell you. I would love to bring back the more traditional ensembles. I know, I actually have derived a plan. I know it would work. Politics won't let me do that.  Someday I still have hope but this is different. Out of the blue last spring, I get asked and I still don't fully understand why I got asked. I got asked to, of all things, pilot, no, not pilot. I got us the first started with teach at Arcadia, an engineering design class. Why are you giving me an engineering design class? Well, because you're technically qualified because of the CTE, the way the rules are written for CTE. And you like having the extra contract and this way you can keep the extra contract, because every I look at everything through the lens of my two little boys. That I will literally do I will braid your hair, Joe, for a six fig, for an extra contract. Richard: That's literally where my, that's I mean, I will totally do it. So but so I'm like, ok, sure, why? why not. Right? And I'm, I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but to put it nicely, I'm promised a whole lot of resources and none of them, none of them come through. On a whim, I threw a thing like, the one thing that they said they were setting up for me, the people organizing were like, "Yeah, you don't have the engineering background to come to this conference for us to work with you, really sorry." The woman who was basically organizing it for this conference, not in my district, not at my school, actually still have yet to meet her. I would like to meet her. Jill was really kind. She's like, but I know of this other thing going on. I'm going to call you back in half an hour. She calls me back with these phone numbers. I went up on the phone with these people that are going to pilot for this previous school year, for the first time, they have a multi-million dollar grant through the National Science Foundation to revamp the entire concept of engineering in schools. Richard: It's headed up by and now I am flexing on their behalf. ASU, which is one of the large...I think it's the largest engineering school in the world, believe it or not, Vanderbilt, University of Maryland, Virginia Tech and I forget the fifth major university that is supervising this. And they, because the woman, Jill, from this other thing, this small little training session that they won't let me go to because I don't have the degree in engineering. Got all this experience in audio engineering but none of that, and that's fine. They are all excited and I think they may all be drunk. I don't know what's going on. So literally, they're like, no, no, no, no, we, I'm like, I'm like, what are you talking about? They're like, okay, here's your, [Them]"Can you come to Maryland for a week over the summer?" [Richard] "I guess" [Then] "We'll pay for it, don't worry, we'll pay for everything. Just can you come to the University of Maryland, we're gonna do a training session." [Richard] "Yeah, OK." [Them] "It starts Sunday." This is like a Tuesday. They're like [Them] "If you can get on a plane, we want you here for a week to do this thing. We just got to make sure we, we just got dot some "i's" and cross some "t's" or whatever. Richard: So we get to Friday night and I get this call from, you know, one of their head lead, lead investigators on this whole thing and he goes, [Them]"Ok, yeah, yeah, we need you here!" I'm like, [Richard] "Are you sure? [Them] "No, no, no, we've been looking at your website and we've been looking at you, you're the perfect person for this!" And I'm like [Richard] "I'm a musician, maybe, I sure as hell I'm not an engineer, and they're like, [Them] "No, you don't understand." OK, they're like [Them] "Just come to Maryland." So I literally, I booked a flight on a Friday, I get on a plane Sunday morning and Sunday night I'm at a dinner where I am so not the smartest person in the room, it's not even funny, Joe. I mean, it's, and by the end of dinner, I realized what they're trying to do and what they've basically decide, what they've basically come up with and they've done all this research prior to it over the last several years, that the concept of what people think engineering is, is completely off. I say the word engineering not to be funny and flip the script here a little bit on you, what are the first three words when I say engineering that you think of? Joe: Well, I always think when you and I are talking and you say engineering, I'm thinking just sound engineering. That's like so when you keep, you keep talk, you keep talking about engineering, I'm like, what does he know about engineer, like Richard: Ok, Joe: Sound engineering? Richard: Ok, Joe: But Richard: So remove Joe: There's electrical Richard: The sound. Joe: Engineering, there's, I don't know, mechanical engineer, I don't know. There's whatever. Richard: Right. But are you going to minus the sound engineering part, you're not going to time much of any of that to music in any fashion right? And the thing of it is, where they did all this research is that apparently most people don't tie it to creativity either. And they don't tie it to solving problems for people. And they don't tie it to something that I've latched on to that, there's a story behind every single thing that has to get designed or built or created or engineered, because otherwise, how would you come up with the need? And some of these stories are incredibly impactful. So their whole premise is that they wanted to pilot this year, there were nine of us across the country, most of them on the East Coast and the Midwest. I was the only, one part of the reason they got excited, I think was also because I was from Arizona and Arizona didn't have anybody in it. And the University of Arizona was one of the biggest contributors to this whole thing excuse me, not University of Arizona, Arizona state. But in any case, but what started to happen, we start having these conversations. And by the end of dinner, we are talking about what they call the engineering design process and what I have for years been calling and have gotten, I guess you could say, known for of the creative process. And what we start to realize are, well, they're, they're kind of like halfway laughing at me, halfway laughing with me because they understood this already. This is why they got so excited for me, I know and they've told me this since. Because when you take the two processes, engineering, design and creative process and you put them next to each other when you keep the definitions the same, but change the jargon on a few terms, they're not just similar, they're actually identical in a really freaky way. So all of a sudden, last fall, I'm in the summer and fall, I'm like, oh my gosh! Well, now and you have to remember all these years of building this thing, then that whole epiphany about open creative platform and what that needs to mean. And now I just feel like I'm on a mission with this. So I go through this whole year and it's, it's very much kind of an engineering design process, although interestingly, I'm still getting and I still am every year getting the music education interns from ASU, nearly every music I get, I don't know I don't get every one of their music education majors, but I get almost all of them. At some point they spend a semester with me, for better or worse. They're coming in and they're watching this class, too and it's getting really interesting to see. And we're talking about parallels and process and parallels and possibilities everything else. And as we're going through this and I'm having meetings with these engineering folks from all over the country and we're talking about all the connections. And I'm like, I have an idea for year two. And I'm like, so I've built this industry based music program that has proven itself, I'm not saying we've got it perfected, but you know, I have a, I do at least have a reasonable track record for flying a plane while it's being built. Richard: And for upping the possibilities of where we can push things in terms of opportunities for kids. And I've been successful,I mean, it's not like, you know, I think that, you know, on balance, the risk of sounding a little egotistical, it's not unreasonable to say at least "Give me a shot to explore the idea." Right? So I started looking some like I'm looking at the standards for this new program I've been piloting for a year and looking at the state education standards. I'm looking at my music standards and my own program standards. And I'm going, oh, my gosh, we could take all of this stuff, you know, speaking of mixers, could have a kid build a mixer. Why not? They're going to have to, I mean, there's electrical engineering in that, we're getting into mechanical engineering because of what a mixture does in terms of its functions, in terms of controlling the sound of space in a room. There's all kinds of engineering already that and I was starring in little projects throughout the year. You know, had them designing windows. We'd need a window between our control room and our life studio space. These are the champagne first world problems that we have in CMAS. But I had the engineering students designing how that would look. We were talking, you know, the lighting on the soundstage and how can we build a different mechanism, door thresholds. I mean, we were already starting to do some of these stuff, at least as concepts and on all these different things. And I'm like, there's so many things. So I called the head of the State Joe: Wait, Richard: Department. Joe: Wait. Please Richard: I'm sorry. Joe: Tell me please tell me you're addressing the the buzz that can potentially come through the console from the lights Richard: Oh, absolutely. No, Joe: And Richard: We're talking about the electrical Joe: Please, Richard: Interference. Joe: Please tell me you're you're talking about the the awful sound of the air conditioner when it comes on while you're in the middle of Richard: Absolutely, Joe: All those all those Richard: All Joe: Things Richard: Those Joe: We Richard: Different Joe: Struggle. Richard: Things. Joe: That's right. Richard: You know, right now above my head, there's a fan because we live in Arizona and this is a house that I've been very lucky enough to be not to convert to a nice home studio, but it's still a house not built as a studio from scratch, you know. And we're talking about things of that nature, you know, how do you deal with isolation when you don't have isolation? I mean, you name it, we're, we're dealing with all this kinds and it's endless and this is my point. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I have this idea my, my district, God love them, doesn't quite see it. But the people who run the pilot with the National Science Foundation, they're looking at, they're going, "You're basically just talking about changing up the projects, not really changing up the standards of the curriculum goals." And I'm like, "Exactly!" Because it's the same thing, the prob...I mean, it's just the same thing. So I call the state, the head of the State Dept. of Ed, who I get along with to be fair. And I'm just like, "I just want to run this by you so that if anybody comes back and says you can't or shouldn't." And she hears that and she's like, "That's just I said, I already wanted to take your classes and now I now, I think I'm going to like, I'm going to come take your class!" Like she's all over it, but she's giving me ideas. So now, just to give you a sense of where this is headed, she goes, "OK, what about this?" I looked like she was even worse than I was. She's like, "What if you had the kids simulate like they're touring, like they're, they're a production company for a tour and they have to get the band from, let's say, LaGuardia Joe: That's awesome. Richard: Airport Joe: Yeah. Richard: Over to London and they got a design like, how are they going to put the gear on the plane? And they've got to calculate now, like, how much tonnage can they actually take and what are they gonna have to buy or rent over there versus what can they take it? How are they gonna get all these other things calculating like the air velocity and how long it will? Well, I'm like, we are so open like that, I mean, like the creative options are there, the industry options are there. And if you had told look, if you had told me years ago that, first of all, I'd be making, you know, my day job would be an education and I would enjoy that, I would think you were nuts! If you told me that I would be developing a pilot for an engineering program that somehow tied in the music industry legitimately and I'm not just like phoning it in and I'm like passionately committed to it. I would have had you locked up somewhere for being certifiable. But, but, you know, back to the original thing and I know that sounds funny, but this all still comes back to those key concepts to me, and that's why I'm excited about it. To me, what is the, what does the art need? Well, the art needs engineers. The art needs musicians. The art needs producers. The art needs...and I'm not just talking about sound engineers. They are important too. The art needs marketing. We've actually had and you've mentioned we've brought in a marketing track a little bit into, you know, what we do with the program. Anything that's industry based, the career part, you know, if it's career based, if it's creative, if it's collaborative. We should be able to do it, and if we can't, what I have learned is that's not because we can't do it, it's because we haven't figured out how to do it yet. And so I'm really big on any silos or any walls that block creative process. I'm knocking them down, you know, and I'm going to try piss off some people doing it. This engineering thing, there are some people that aren't thrilled about it and I'm gonna have to work through that at some point with them, just like there are people who aren't happy that the program exists. You know, on the music education side of it. Joe: That, to me, is just, blows my mind because and Richard: Because Joe: I Richard: Your career, Joe: Don't get it. Richard: But that's because you're career oriented. To you, you love the art but you also know what's necessary to pay the bills. Joe: Yeah, but it's just, it's a tool set that is invaluable because you're, you're going to run into situations where you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I was a part of that, because I can take even that one little piece of it and it's going to help me get through this moment. I mean, to be able to be a musician but at the same time, understand the process of recording, of acoustics, of, you know, so many other things. It's, I don't know. I'm blown away to even hear that. But that's. Richard: I, I, I hate to say it, but it's true. I mean. But like I said, part of me now looks at that and thinks it's just kind of funny almost. And not to, I don't I'm not wish, I'd like, I don't want the confrontation. But I mean, like the people that are going to say no to this, are going to go on record and saying those five major engineering institutions. You know, the National Science Foundation is wrong, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That that's not a real engineer. The state, the Department of Ed for the state, which is funny enough, almost like the smallest bat to swing in all of this, and that's a huge bat to swing. So I'm just kind of like, I'm just going to keep moving forward. It's good for the kids, the good you know, my site administration think they've, they don't get it, but they like it and they're kind of like, we're just going to stay out of your way. I'm not really worried, you know. I mean, it'll be what it'll be. If I'm wrong, I'll go find some, I mean, I guess I'd go find somewhere else, but I just don't I know I'm not wrong, I hate to say it that way. That's such a horribly arrogant thing to say after I talk all of that about not being arrogant. But these people have convinced me people like you have convinced me, you know, like I said, the industry part of it. Why? You know, of course, we all want to be A Listers with valets and somebody plugs in all our gear for us and everything else. But at the same time, the best musicians know how their gear works. Joe: Yeah. Richard: They just do. And to some extent, want to go and make sure it's, like even if they have somebody who plugs it in for them, can you honestly tell me? Look, I know you've had gigs where some but, you know, you've got a drum tech or whatever. You don't go and check that kit before before you perform on it? Just Joe: Yeah, it just Richard: I mean, it's Joe: It's part of your being. Yeah. Richard: Exactly Joe: Yes. Yeah. Richard: It's absurd not to. So I think all of that put together. This is fascinating to me. Joe: And you've already proven the concept. So you would think that, I guess that would be the most frustrating part for me is that you've already proof of concept been done. It's how many years is the program now been in running. Richard: It's officially 12, I guess. Joe: Because of the CMAS program is 12 years, is it, is it, you're in the program from what? What year of high school. To. Richard: So well, and this is becoming an issue, too, it's always been open from freshmen through senior. Joe: Ok. And is it you're either in it or you're not? Or is there tracks that you can say, I'm interested in the sound recording track. But I'm not Richard: Ok, Joe: Interested Richard: So, Joe: In the songwriting Richard: Yeah. Joe: Tracks. Richard: As he was saying, so I'm going to take the this new engineering, in the traditional word of the word engineering, I'm going to set that aside, because that's where that's going to take some years to develop. Richard: So I'm going Joe: Right. Richard: To set that aside. But as far as the rest goes. Basically, it's what's your interest? I want to be in it, I want to I want to do sound engineering. I want to be a producer. I want to be on the stage as the performer. I want to be a beat maker. You name it and again, I, I, I want to promote the shows. I want to make the music videos, whatever. OK. Everybody's gonna go, there's like some core things, I need everybody to understand the basics of how this microphone works that I'm talking. I need the basics of why your headphones need to go into an interface and what that interface does. I need you to understand the stuff on the walls here, why it does what it does and why it's actually not gonna soundproof the roomm, it's only treating the roo

Rick and I became friends some years back through a mutual acquaintance and our friendship has grown more and more over the years. We have a deep respect for each other, our drive and our accomplishments. We share a kinship in that we're both drummers and love to watch each other perform and share our experiences on and off the stage. Rick takes us all the way back to his early childhood where we learn how his path and his outlook on life, was created at a young age both musically and personally. You will hear him say throughout this interview, the words “No Fear!” and you'll see why he has accomplished so much in his life up to date and why he continues to push himself and grow even more. ********** Rick Lewis: Radio Personality Color Commentator for the Denver Broncos Drummer for The Rick Lewis Project *iHeartRadio Shows* https://thefox.iheart.com/featured/the-rick-lewis-show/ https://koanewsradio.iheart.com/featured/logan-lewis/ Rick's Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/1ricklewis Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ricklewisproject/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/1RickLewis https://youtu.be/oDbwc0ss72A ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links:   http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. For show notes and past guests, please visit If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Rick Lewis Interview: Rick Lewis Interview Joe: Hey, Rick Lewis, man. How you doing? Glad you Rick: Well, Joe: Could join me. Rick: Good to see you, too, Joe. As you can tell, as we were setting this up, I'm a borderline moron when it comes to this type of technology, so I'm trying my best. Joe: Hey, that's what happens when you're a big shot and they have everybody around you taking care of the technology. You just sit back and put the Rick: Yeah I need an I.T. guy at my house Joe: Headphones on and start talking Joe: [laughter] All right, cool. So I just wanted to start from the beginning. We're gonna just do a quick overview of where you started out and so let's just dig into it, man. Everyone's going to know by the time we start talking, at least your bio and everything else. But, you know, I want to start from the very beginning and get a quick synopsis of where you grew up, where you were born, where you grew up. Start from there. Rick: Yeah. So I was. I was born outside of Detroit, Michigan, in a steel town, blue collar steel town. Great place to grow up. Just, you know, really, really good childhood. A lot of great memories. My dad worked for a chemical company there and we lived there from the time I was born till 6th grade. And then my dad started moving around the country because he was kind of moving up, up the ladder in his company. My dad was the first guy in our family to ever get a college degree. And so he kind of broke the mold of, you know, generations of the family. And I really admire him for doing that because he had five kids. He was going to night school to get a degree. I don't know how he did that, but he did it. And once he got his degree, he started kind of moving up in the corporate world a bit. So middle of 6th grade, I moved from Detroit to Columbus, Ohio, middle of 9th grade, I moved from Columbus, Ohio, to Naperville, Illinois, which is right outside Chicago. And then just before my senior year, we moved to Cincinnati, Ohio. So we moved around quite a bit. I went to I think it was four different high schools, in two different states. And I think that...you know, what the time was was a little bit traumatizing because you're always the new kid. But looking back on it now, I realize that it it there were some good things about it that kind of molded me into who I am today. Joe: Right and from what I know, you and I are friends and I know you a fair amount, but I have a feeling that you are really good athlete, right? Rick: I was a really good athlete. Yeah. You know, growing up, I always thought I wanted to be a pro athlete. And that was my dream and that was my dream until I got into college, and then once you get into college with with better competition, you know that that dream was quickly shattered and I realized that that wasn't going to come to fruition. But so that was about until I was about 19 years old, until I realized that, yeah, I'm a good athlete, but there's a lot better athletes than me out there and it just wasn't in the cards for me. But yeah, growing up, we played every sport in Detroit. You know, every sport throughout the season, hockey, baseball, basketball, football and very, very competitive. We played we played a lot of sandlot games back there that were very competitive with some really good players and it was it was really cool to be in that type of competition where you have a real sense of pride for your street or your neighborhood and you're playing against all these other neighborhoods. And it got, it got to the point where there'd be fights. You know, there'd be a lot of, a lot of people that held grudges, you know, and that type of thing and ah like I said, it was kind of a tough part of of the country with all like blue collar, you know, people's kids that were really grinder's and just really gave everything they did...100% percent effort. Joe: Right! Rick: And I was one of those guys. Joe: I know, I know from your mentality that you weren't going to take any shit from anybody, so, so so how did you get to NAU in Flagstaff? Rick: Ok. Joe: How'd you pick that school out of out of Rick: Yeah, Joe: Everything? You know Rick: Well, like I said, we moved around a lot, so I was a good football player. And the fact that we moved right before my senior year was not good for somebody that was hoping to move on and play college football and get recruited and get it to a good football program because, you know, it's hard to follow somebody, especially back then, not today with social media. You know, it's a lot easier to get your profile out there to, you know, college recruiters and coaches. But back then, it wasn't. So the fact that I moved right before my senior year was a bit of a handicap for me. But I had a good senior year and I was getting recruited throughout the state of Ohio and Indiana and Kentucky and places like that. That I wasn't really that interested in going to, you know, a lot of smaller schools, a few mid-level schools. I did get letters from some other schools around the country, too, that were bigger. But I didn't have the confidence at that point to one up, you know, leave, leave or leave home and go halfway across the country to try to play at a at a bigger school. But anyway, NAU one of the schools that that did recruit me back then, I never even heard it in a year in Ohio. I mean, I had never heard of that. I heard the name before. So I ended up going to actually went to Miami University, Miami of Ohio, which was about an hour, maybe an hour and a half from my house. And the reason I did that is because at a high school girlfriend that I thought for me it was more important that I stay close to home so I could be around this high school girlfriend and Miami of Ohio had a really good football team at the time. Rick: They didn't recruit me. So I just went there so I could be closer to my girlfriend. Three weeks since you broke up with me and, you know, the typical freshman story. And so I couldn't wait to get out of that school. I mean, I just kind of I waited one quarter and I quit and I came back home and try to figure out what I was going to do next. And it was at that point that I really I think is when I would say I became a man at that point, because I had a I had a bit of, I guess you'd call it an awakening or epiphany back then as I was going through all of this pain, you know, this is high school heartbreak. And I realized that ah, that I had, I was I was blessed with a lot of things. I was I was born at the right time, you know, born in the United States. You know, I was athletic. I had had some intelligence. I had some musical ability. And I realized that I had all of these skills that were already given to me and that it was my job at that point to take all of these gifts and then try to make them better, you know, try to enhance myself in every way and become a better person all around. And so once I had that epiphany, I decided that it was time to launch. And I remember that NAU had recruited me and I like I said, I'd never even heard of you before but Arizona seemed like a really exotic place to be, especially for a kid from Ohio. And so I decided that's where I was going to go. Joe: And what did you. Yeah. So what did you go there to do? Cause it it wasn't getting go there for football, right. Rick: Yeah, Joe: What was your major. Rick: I did. Joe: Oh you did. Rick: Oh, definitely. Yeah. Joe: Oh, cool. Rick: And I had no major in mind at that point. I was I was on a different kind of mission. I wasn't going there to learn or be educated out of a book. I was going there to experience life. And so the school part of it wasn't all that important to me. I had something else in mind and that was just, you know, finding out who I was, what I was fully capable of doing, challenging myself and at that point, I would say I had no fear. I had no fear of failure. I had, I didn't even have a second thought that whatever I did wasn't going to work, that I would find a way to make it work. And I would find a way to be successful and I just...I could have I could have done anything at that point. I literally could have done anything. But I didn't know what it was yet. But I had a feeling whatever I did, it was going to be great! It which change this belief, just this faith that I had. So I went out there, you know, the football was a part of the package, but it was really just to find myself in the football part of it ended up becoming becoming a very minor part of the experience out there, because I learned so much about myself and what I was capable of doing. And I had several majors when I was there. I just you know, I could never find anything that really interested me enough in school until one day at the gym, a guy told me that he had a show on the campus radio station and he said, you should come down tonight to them on my radio show. I'd never even thought of it. And I said, "OK, that sounds cool, I'll do that". So I went in there that night and I really liked it. He put me on the air. I ended up getting my own show. I'd found my thing, basically. So when I went out there for with complete confidence that I would find but not knowing what it was at the time, I did find it. It's... Joe: How far was that into into that college year or like was it the first year, second year? Rick: I want to say it was year two. And I was only there for two and a half years, so I would say probably right after my first year I discovered that. And then I switched my major to radio TV. Like I said, I got my own show on the campus station. I, I knew I was...I knew I was good at it right away. You know, I just found my thing just like you when you found that you could play drumms, right? You knew Joe: Yeah. Rick: What your thing is. So I knew what my thing was. And so I also got I was doing ah...I was like a club deejay. They had nightclubs and stuff like that, you know like disco kind of thing. I became a disco deejay and that was really fun, I really enjoyed that. And just once again, just developing my craft, basically learning how to talk in front of people, learning how to put on a show, learning how to present. And that just was just giving me more and more experience for my radio TV career that follow. So after, after a year or so of doing that, you know, a lot of people were telling me, you know, a lot of people in Flagstaff were telling me right now my, my group of people [laughter] Joe: Right. Rick: Would be, you know, they were saying, you know, "Rick, you're really good at this man. You should go to Hollywood. You should you should try to get into movies in Hollywood". And I was thinking, yeah, you know what? I should probably try that. And so once again, going back to the no fear thing, that's what I did, I ended up quitting NAU after two and a half years. This was this because after like right after the fall semester. So going in to the spring, some guy that was driving to California for a job and I didn't have a car, I didn't have any money, I literally five bucks, that's all I had. So I had no car, I had five dollars to my name, everything I owned a pillowcase. I did, I didn't have any, anywhere to go up there, I had no place to stay...nothing. Well, there's this guy that I was driving out with, had a van, so I thought, well, you know, if I get desperate, I could maybe sleep in this guy's van. So I went out there and I quickly got hired at a club about there in Orange County as a deejay. And not only did I get a job, they gave me room and board at a at this nice hotel because the club was at a hotel. So I got a job, room and board at the hotel, I got a company car, all my, all my meals paid for and all my laundry and dry cleaned. Joe: Geez. Rick: So it was like I hit the lotto, you know? And I remember I called my dad up when I got out there because he was really mad at quit school. And I called my dad up when I got out there and he ah...he goes, "So what are you really doing out there, son?" He goes "Are you in the Mafia or something?" He goes, "He said, no...nobody gives a 21 year old kid a company car". I said, yeah, I know, Dad, but they did and so I had that, you know, so that gave me some stability and some income. And I went out and got an agent and this agent sent me out on my first, like very first audition was a movie called "Fast Break", which was a basketball movie, Gabe Kaplan was the star of it. And um,  I tried out for it was a very minor role in the movie. Basically just had to play basketball. So once again, going back to the athletic ability that I had. Right. So that was my tryout and they went, OK, good, you got the part. So I ended up I work six weeks on this film every day for six weeks, and it didn't pay that much. Rick: I still remember when paid it paid seventy five bucks a day. And at that point, I'd had a motorcycle. Um, I rode the motorcycle to the set every day in L.A. for six weeks...it never rained one time. Lucky because at that point I didn't have the car anymore because when I got this job, I had to quit the the deejay job. And so that I had to get a motorcycle, somebody loaned me money to get the motorcycle. Some guy just said, you know, "Let me buy that for you". So once again, it's just like it's like everything was just meant to be for me. And so that kind of got me started down the path of trying to be an actor. The movie was a was a big hit for those of you watching this now, you could still find that movie. It pops up like on, on TBS, like once a year they play it. At the time, it was one of the biggest movies of the year that came out because Gabe Kaplan was a big star back. He was coming from Welcome Back Kotter to that. And so. Joe: I'll have to rent it now so that I can and I have to figure out if I can find you somewhere in the film before we get past this point, though, I want to ask you, what gave you the foresight to to actually go and get an agent? How did that come to your brain to go, wow. I need to go get an agent. Rick: Why just knew I just knew if you're going to be if you want to try to get some TV or movies, you needed an agent. And so this guy this guy got me in quite a few things, mostly, mostly extra roles but I did pick up ah, I got a couple of national TV commercials, I got a Budweiser commercial, I got a Marantz stereo commercial. I was an ABC sitcom called "Makin' It" with David Naughton. You know, just a minor role...I beat him up in the show. I was like a tough guy and, and they and they you up, they didn't think I looked tough enough and I had, I had blond hair, kind of surfer guy look and so they sprayed my hair black with, with a Joe: Oh Gosh... Rick: spray paint out of the can. They sprayed my hair black to make, it look like me. So I was kind of disappointed in that because if you watched it and knew me, you wouldn't even know it was me. Joe: Oh Wow! Rick: But a lot, a lot, a lot of cool experiences along the way. Joe: That's really cool, and it's funny because you started out doing the radio thing, which is not in front of a camera to being fully in front of a camera and then come where we are today, now you're well, actually you do both now. So it's kind of cool. You got the experience, so you're comfortable in both situations. Rick: Yeah. And the way I got decided to go back into get into radio is, this is, this is really was a turning point in my life. I was working at a liquor store, like all actors do. You're either a wait, you know, a waiter or you work at a liquor store or something like that. Something that gave you the freedom to be able to go out in an audition and do whatever you needed to do. So as working at a liquor store in Anaheim, right down the street from Disneyland. And it was a Friday night and that night a show that I was on was on TV. So I brought a TV in to the liquor store because I wanted to...you know, I obviously wanted to watch myself on TV. And in effect, it was that show "Makin' It" that I just mentioned, the ABC sitcom. And so I brought to TV in and I had it on the counter and it was a Friday night on Harbor Boulevard in Anaheim, right down the street from Disney. And a couple of guys came in and, you know, put a 12 pack on on the counter and and I'm busy looking at the TV over here and I turned around I said, "You want anything else?" They went "Yeah, I think we'll go get another 12 pack. I said, "Yeah, that's great!" And so I go back, I'm looking at the TV, one guy comes around behind me and the guy in front of me puts a gun to my head. So they're obviously holding me up. Yeah, Joe: Yeah, man... Rick: It's so. Rick: You know, it's you don't know how you're going to react in a situation like that, until that happens and everything for me just slowed way down almost like slow motion. And I didn't panic, I was, I was really calm. I gave him the money out of the um, the cash register, but I knew that they had some marked bills in there. If you pulled these marked bills, that triggers a silent alarm and the Anaheim PD comes because if you're getting robbed, that's what you did. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't want to give him those bills because I knew that the alarm would would trigger the police to come and I thought if the police came, these guys would either hold me hostage or kill me. So you could see how how clear I was thinking. So I didn't give the bills and they said, you know, "Give us all the bills you M'efer". And so I pull them out, I threw them in the bag. Now, I knew that the cops had been alerted. So they're trying to get me to open the safe. I couldn't open that, I said, "Hey, man, I just work here, I don't have the combination". And they said, "Open the safe!!". and I said, "I can't man, I just work here". So they said, "Get in the back room, hands over your heads!!" I'm walking back like this. And that's when I thought, well, I might be in trouble now and then it's the same time, I'm still thinking, man, I hope nobody comes in that front door because they'll probably kill me. Rick: Even the cops were there, if the cops come they'll hold me hostage, if somebody else walks in, they'll probably kill me. This is a Friday night and then nobody comes in. So then they told me to lay on the floor, hands over my head, you know, like execution style...I'm doing that. And they're still trying, they find a crowbar. They're trying to open the safe, and so they, they couldn't get it open and they finally realized they're going to get out of there. And they told me to count to 100 before I got up. They had to step right over me to get out. And I'm thinking they're either going to kick me in the head, shoot me in the back of the head, you know, who knows what they're doing? Well, they didn't you know, they stepped over me and ran out the door. I counted to three and I ran up the door because I wanted to see if I could catch a license plate. But they were on foot. So they got away. It is up standing in the parking lot, five cop cars pulled up and at first they thought that I robbed a liquor store. And I quickly explained to them what had happened. And so, anyway, long story short, they never caught the guys but the next day I got called into the corporate office. It was a U-Tote'Em, I know if you remember you U-Tote'Em Joe: Ok... Rick: Became they became Circle K's Joe: Ok. Rick: Yeah, so a corporate liquor store. Joe: Mm...hmmmm Rick: And I got called in to the corporate office and the guy sat me down and he goes, "Well, you got robbed last night!", I said, "Yeah, yeah!". He goes, "Well, you know what? They got a lot of money!!" I was like? "Yeah!?", he goes "No, they got like $227 dollars. I said "Ah ha!" and he goes, he goes, "That's a lot of money!" And and I said it, and I was, I was probably twenty three years old, twenty two, you know, still just a kid and this guy's got his suit on and everything. And I said, I said, "Have you ever had a gun pointed at your head!?" And he said, "No, I haven't". And I said, "Listen, man"...I said, "I would've carried the safe to my fuckin' car!!". If I...that's a quote, you know, quote unquote. I told them that, he goes, "Oh, no, no, I understand,you know, I totally get that", but he goes, "We're going to have to let you go!". I, Joe: Oh, Rick: I got fired... Joe: Gosh... Rick: for being held up, and so I said, I said, "Why would I give up my life for a minimum wage job?" I said "I would get I wouldn't give them anything they wanted". He goes, "No and I get that we can have you work here anymore". I don't know, I still don't know what that was about. But I ended up realizing that I should probably get into radio. You know, that's really what I was born to do. Now, the acting thing wasn't my thing and so I ended up going back to school at Long Beach State because they had a really good radio program there. And I had a year and a half to go to get my degree and I got a degree at Long Beach State. They had two broadcast stations on campus, broadcasting into Long Beach. It was great experience...I did everything from a deejay shift to a sports talk show, to a news, I was a news anchor and I did play by play for the Long Beach State football, baseball, basketball team. And so I got a ton a great experience. Yeah, it turned out to be really, really good. Joe: That's amazing because I got on the radio at my college and I got the shitty 4 a.m. to 7 a.m. slot or something like that, because like it was only drunks calling in and telling me to play this and that and I'd get in trouble with it. I wouldn't stick to the playlist that the program director gave me, so. Yeah. So yeah, that's Rick: Oh, Joe: Good. Rick: I didn't know you do that. Joe: Oh yeah. It was it was a disaster. Rick: Yeah, I got to do everything, but keep in mind now I'm a little older, so I'm probably twenty three, where everybody else there is 18 and 19. So I was more experienced, I've been around. And so I really don't want to say I was the best guy there, but I probably was, you know. And so they want it, so they utilize me any way they could. And it just turned out to be great in fact I'm not bragging, but I got nominated as outstanding graduate the program. And this is Joe: Oh cool! Rick: it and me, a guy who never cared about school. I mean, I could care less about what I could learn at school or at least a classroom part of it but once I got into radio, it was just my thing. I got straight A's, I got a 4.0. my last year and a half with, without really even trying. And when that happens, you know, you found, your thing, you found. Joe: Yeah. Rick: You're supposed to be doing, you know, just Joe: Yeah. Rick: Like I mentioned earlier with you playing drums. Same thing. Joe: So now, now you're, you found it! You found what you love, you got your degree, you excelled in it. How you know, if we can just cover quickly the, the the brief stop offs at the different stations around the country that you, you got work at and then finally landing in Colorado. Rick: So, yeah, I graduated in June. I sent out tapes for, I sent out tapes for, you know, to be a deejay and I also sent out sports tapes to do sports talk or be a sports reporter because I like both. And and I didn't, you know, I thought I'd end up in sports, honestly, like to be a sportscaster but I didn't want to limit myself, so I set up both and I got hired in August. Two months later, I got hired at a radio station in San Clemente. So in the market still right on the beach, it was it was pretty cool. The money wasn't very good. I still remember what I was making back then, it was twelve hundred a month to do mornings at this station in San Clemente, but I wasn't in it for the money. I had, I knew, I knew what the goal was, I knew that the money would come at some point. This was just all about getting getting you getting reps, as they say in football, you know, building up my chops. I knew I had to build up my chops. I didn't come out of college, you know, a good broadcaster. I came out of college a you know, a green professional broadcaster with a lot of potential. So I totally saw the big picture and I knew I just had to get reps in and every day, you get better and better and better. Just like playing an instrument, you just got play. And, you know, anybody can crack open a mike and talk on the radio but it's the years of experience that really, you know, fine tunes, what you can do, just like playing drums or playing any other instrument. So, so San Clemente, I was there for a year and a half and I started getting noticed by some of the bigger markets like San Diego, they had me working weekends and say Diego at a radio station down there. In fact, they offered me the morning show down there and that's a whole another story, I kind of blew that one. Well, I don't know how much time we have. But Joe: It's Rick: Yeah. Joe: Up to you. Listen, I. I will stay here as long as, I have a lot I want to cover. Rick: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: But if Rick: Well, Joe: If this is Rick: Ok. Joe: A great but if this is a great story, because the story with the five dollars and the pillow Rick: Yeah. Joe: Case, Rick: Yeah well anyway... Joe: I had never I had never heard. So that was a great story. Rick: Yeah. Well, anyway, it was a, I learned a lesson talking to fans that would call the show, you know, a lot of times when records are playing, you'll kill time talking to people on the phone. And I happened to mention it to somebody, who happened to call down the morning show guy at the station in San Diego and tell them, "Oh, by the way, I heard this guy in San Clemente, Rick Lewis, is taking your job!" This guy's "What!!?" He went to the boss, told the boss, the boss called me. "Who? Who did you tell, you had the morning show here at the radio station!!?" And said, He said, "I can't hire you!" He said, "I had to deny it, I'm not going to be able to hire you". Anyway, that's the short version of the story, but still from there, from San Clemente, I ended up getting hired at a radio station in Anaheim. After about a year and a half in it, it was quite a big step up. It was a union station. The money was really good. I had probably more than tripled or quadrupled what I was making, you know, so I was there for just a week and they changed the format. I got fired a week into the week into this job and it was, you know, like I said, it was. Rick: It was a pretty good step up. And like I was thinking, how did they not know that they were gonna change the format a week ago when they hired me? It was pretty devastated. And so once again, I'm starting over I ended up sending tapes out. This time I'm certainly tapes out of the L.A. Three months later, I got hired at the biggest rock station in L.A. and probably the biggest rock station in the country. Some of you may remember KMET The Mighty Met, those of you from from L.A. certainly remember KMET. So, so one door closes, another one opens. I ended up like just jump, jumpin' over the mid-market, you know, radio station, right up to the very top. So in a year and a half out of college, I'm working at the top radio, top rock radio station in the country. It was named Billboard Magazine's Major Market AOR Radio Station. And so this was like a dream. It's unbelievable! I was the youngest guy there, they had legendary radio personalities there and just just a blessing for me. You know, I'm not the most patient guy anyway. Yeah, I don't think I was ready for it, to be honest, I still had a lot of a lot of growing to do as a radio personality, but that's certainly accelerated it. Rick: And then once again, the pay was two or three times more than what it was gonna be an Anaheim so in a year and a half, I just like I shot right to the top of my field. And, you know, you're probably thinking, well, you didn't pay your dues, you know. I guess maybe you could look at it that way, like I didn't have to go to a lot of shitty markets and you know, grind it out for 10 years before I got the opportunity but that's just how it happened for me. But I never took it for granted. I never took it for granted because going back to my blue collar roots, I would call myself a grinder with talent. The talent a blessing, the grind part, that's on me. I had nothing to do with the talent. But the grind part's on me, and I always thought that a grinder with talent, is the, the person you would want to hire because that person is going to take what they got and they're going to outwork everybody and they're just going to get better and better and better. And so that's kind of how it happened with me. So there I was LA, now you want to know how I got to Denver. OK. So. Joe: Yeah. Now, I wanted to how cause, like cause, that's where we're going to get into more of this other stuff. So... Rick: Yeah, so I worked in LA for...see, I started in 81' at San Clemente and I worked in LA till 1990 so nine years. I also worked at Power 106 in LA, which is still a big powerhouse radio station in L.A. because I ended up getting fired from KMET twice, um yeah, two times. Yeah, one time I just signed a three year deal and this fired me three months later. They pulled the plug on the whole radio station, this was in 1987. They, they became the first smooth jazz radio station in the country. They just pulled the plug on one of the greatest, if not the greatest rock radio station ever! Turn it into smooth jazz, fired us all. So that's the third time I've been fired now since 1981. So I went to...I realized then that I, to make the really big money and the biggest impact in the business, you got to do morning drive radio. So I stepped back down to that radio station Anaheim, that I was that early on in my career and started doing mornings there and I did mornings there for three three years and I got fired...again. So for no reason, you get fired in radio, not for doing anything wrong, it's usually a turnover of, you know, upper management, middle management, format changes, that kind of thing. So, so now I've been fired four times, since I started in 1981 and it's really hard to get a job in radio. Every time you get fired, you think I'm probably never going to get hired again. Rick: You know, because it's it's it's really hard to do. And I had, I had so many chances along the way there in LA where I almost hit like the big time. Like I got asked to guest host PM Magazine and I crushed it! And I killed it!. They call me later, they said "Hey, we want to, we're thinking about making you the national PM Magazine host" and I was probably, I was probably about twenty six years old, twenty seven, and they were like "I was like, cool!" So they said, we got to, get we got to get a reel, gotta to get something more than this to show people nationally, come on down, we'll do some test and test rule. And that day I got stuck in traffic driving from Orange County to Hollywood, took me two and a half hours. I didn't know then, that I'm hypoglycemic, so my blood sugar just tanked on the way down there. So I got there, I did the audition and I was flat, totally flat. And I knew it was not a good audition. And the guy pulled me aside, he goes, "Rick, what happened man, you crushed it when you guest hosted the show, the just wasn't very good!" "Yeah man,I know", I said "I'm just not feel "in it today. He goes, "I can't show anybody this!". "Well, can we try it again?" He goes, "No". So anyway, I blew that one. Dick Clark called the radio station in LA that I was working at, some, somehow he had seen me somewhere and he said, "Hey, I want to meet this guy, Rick Lewis, one of your radio people". Rick: They gave me the message, I call back, they set up a meeting with me. I go to Dick Clark's Studios in Burbank and I never met Dick, but I met his right hand man. We had about a 90 minute meeting. And he told me that they were going to develop a bunch of shows around me. And so of course, at this point I realized not to get your hopes up in Hollywood or in show business because a lot of times it just never happens. So I was feeling good about it, but I didn't get my hopes up at that point and I'm maybe twenty seven years old, twenty eight, I already knew better than to get my hopes up. So we had some conversations on the phone after that about different shows and different show ideas for about three, four months and then they went dark on me. Nothing, nothing ever happened again, I never heard from him again. So anyway, I had all these near misses or near hits along the way. And so at 1990, a radio guy in L.A. named Frazer Smith, and once again, anybody from LA would know that name, he was, he's one of the legendary guys out there. He was from Detroit and he told me, he said "Hey man!", he goes "I just got offered a half a million dollars to do mornings in Detroit" and this was in the 80s, so translate that into today's money. That's a lot of money! Joe: Right. Rick: He said big money Joe: That's a lot of money. Rick: You can make big money in some of these Midwest towns doing mornings. I went "Really!!? OK, it's good to know". So I contacted a guy that I knew in our company that I still work for and they offered me an afternoon show back in Cincinnati, which is where I used to live. I thought that was too big of a step down in market size, I turned it down. A show, a station in Detroit, told me that they were very interested in hiring me to do a show there and so I went back and interviewed. I took my life back, we were looking at houses and neighborhoods, never happened! And anybody that's in show business,  you know, Joe, you've been you've been in the entertainment business a long time, you know that this is just how it goes. All of these big things get dangled in that most of time they don't happen. But, I knew at that point that I'm ready to leave the market if the right opportunity came along. So the guy who offered me the job at Cincinnati got back to me and he named off about three or four other markets that they were willing to hire in and Denver was one them. And I'd never really been to Denver before. And he said, hey, we got this comedian named Floorwax, he's really funny, but he doesn't get the radio business, he doesn't understand it. He needs a really good partner to make it work. He'd already, he'd already had a show here in Denver. He was on the air with another guy and he said the station is losing money. Rick: They're they're not right even in the top 20, but he said, if you can go there, turn it around, he said you can write your own ticket. And I kept thinking back to what Frazer Smith told me about how this could all work out financially. So my wife and I flew out and we liked the city. I thought it was worth taking a chance for a year. Once again, back to no fear. I left the L.A. market and I by the way, I did get after getting fired there, I did have another radio show, another radio station I was working for back there, so it wasn't like I was unemployed, but I, I told my wife, I said, even if this only last year with Floorwax, we'll go somewhere else, meaning me and Floorwax will keep going somewhere till it hits. Because I knew I knew that what we had, was really special. And it ended up here we are 30 years later, I'm still doing the same radio show..it's unbelievable. And it's been just an incredible run and I'd never take it for granted because of how I started my career, getting fired four times in the first nine years. I wake up every day just counting my blessings. And I also realize it didn't matter how good you are, how big you are, how much money you make, they could fire you in a second and I've never taken that for granted. Joe: I know that about you, I know that you're grateful every day for what you have and what you've accomplished and that's why this is a special interview for me, because we we think along the same lines and in, you know, that's what they say, right? You said you are, what is it? The quote is something like, "You are the sum of the five people that you associate yourself with" or hang around whether or whatever. So, Rick: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, I get Rick: We all Joe: Yeah Rick: Attract, Joe: Yeah. Rick: You know, the energy we put out. We named Energy. And so Joe: Yeah. Rick: That's how you and I became friends. You know, you Joe: Yeah. Rick: Kind of attract who you are or what you what you put out there. Yeah. Joe: Yup. So you get to Denver and they get rid of this other guy that Floorwax is with and you step in and you guys create this this Lewis and Floorwax show that was on the air for how many years? Rick: Well, Floorwax and I did twenty three years together. And then Joe: Ok. Rick: Unfortunately for floor wax, he ended up quitting the show and he's been gone ever since. So he's been gone for seven years now. And the show continues to go on. The show is still very successful. You know, big revenue maker, big ratings. It's amazing. I can't believe it's lasted this long. I really can't. Joe: Yup, yeah, and there must have been a lot of pressure, right, when that whole thing happened where Floorwax was going away, you were still handed the show to say, let's keep it going and make the best of it. And I'm sure at that point everybody's eyes were on you going, ok, can he pull this off without having the secondary person with him on the air to exchange that banter with and all that other stuff? And I know listening to it after that, that it just it just kept shooting upward. It just was amazing! Rick: Yeah, I kind of thought Joe: And still is so... Rick: Maybe it was over here in Denver when he had left. In fact, I hired an agent outside. You know, the more I had a New York agent, you know, a national agent thinking that I would probably be looking for another job. And I looked at it once again as an opportunity. You know, like, all right, this is the universe telling me, hey, it's time to move on. Floorwax left in January and by that summer, the radio show was number one in the morning. And so then they the company was coming back to me talking about a new contract. And so it ended up working out where they signed me to a new contract. I don't think they thought it was going to work. I thought, I think they thought the show was over, you know, and this will be it. I think everybody was surprised, including myself. I ended up retooling the show, kind of reinventing it, reinventing myself. I looked at it as an opportunity to just get better. You know, I had a band with Floorwax as well, that was real successful. I looked at that as an opportunity to, as kind of a rebirth. And, and the approach that I took and it took a lot of work, it was a lot of work with the radio show and the band, to get it actually to the level we were before and in some cases even better. Joe: Right. So the timeline is you start with Floorwax. What year? Rick: 1990. Joe: And then it ends January of what year? Rick: Well, twenty three years later. So that would be 2013. Is what you Joe: Got Rick: Walked Joe: It. Rick: Off? Yeah. Joe: Ok. OK. And you picked up and you just just it was it's amazing. So I know that the list could be huge, but let's just for the sake of keeping it condensed. I know just a few times you invited me into the studio and I've been in town or I've listened to it from being in Arizona. What's the top five most famous people you either interviewed live in the studio or remotely on like call-ins over the phone? I know it's ridiculous because the list is probably hundreds. Rick: You know what it is, it's a really hard question to answer. Joe: Did any of them make you nervous? How's that? Maybe that would pinpoint them somebody like being really over the top. Well known. Rick: I literally interviewed almost everybody you can think of joke. You know, if even when I was in L.A., I worked for Westwood One and my job was to go get, to do probably seven to 10 interviews a week of either movie stars or rock ah, you know, rock stars, singer songwriters. So I was interviewing seven to 10 people a week for a couple of years out there. I interviewed everybody. When somebody is new album would come out, I got to meet them at a hotel in their hotel room, you know, and interview them. So it's all kind of a blur, to be honest Joe: Yeah, I'm Rick: With Joe: Sure. Rick: You. You started naming names. I could I could tell you. Oh, yeah. Joe: Yeah. Rick: I could tell you a story about Joe: Yep. Rick: That Westwood One gig did make me a really good interviewer or me, you know, it made me really know how to interview people and how to how to listen to people instead of, instead of having a list of questions in your ask, that you ask, you know, question number seven off your list, while they're talking, you're already looking at question number eight. You're just like, you've just got to let it flow, you know, and it just go with the conversation because a lot of these people, they, they, they're not that comfortable being interviewed. It's not their thing, though, some of them are great, like David Lee Roth. That's a guy I've interviewed many times. All you gotta do is turn the mic on and let em' go and just try to guide it, you know and try to, hopefully you get from point A to point B to point C without losing your license. You know, guys like that, Ted Nugent, Joe: Right. Rick: Ted Nugent, you just let him go. But you try to guide them, you know, along the way to try to get what you want out of them. Guys like that are real easy, but a lot of them, they really have very little to say. A lot of a lot of these rock stars are somewhat introverted, movie stars, really a introverted.  Movie stars, you take away a script, they don't have a whole lot to say. You know, they're always you know, they're going off, everything they do is off a script. You've seen some of these guys on the talk shows. You know, it takes a really good interviewer, Jimmy Fallon and David Letterman guys like that, to bring them out. And so you learn how to do that. I like I have so many. I really. Joe: I know, I know it's it's it's Rick: We Joe: A bad Rick: Wear Joe: Question. Rick: This watch. We can do this for hours Joe: I know, Rick: A day Joe: I Rick: For. Joe: Know. All right. So now you are currently on the Fox, 1.3, 103.5 Rick: Yeah. Joe: On weekdays. And you've been doing that alone since the spring of 2013. Correct. January 2013, that's Rick: Since Joe: When four Rick: January Joe: Weeks Rick: Of Joe: Left. Rick: 2013. Joe: Ok. So on top of that, you recently. I don't, I say recently only because in this industry, you know, a couple of years is still recent. But you, is it true that you're the color commentator for the Denver Broncos? I just didn't want Rick: This Joe: To get Rick: Is true, Joe: It wrong. I don't Rick: Joe. Joe: Want to say. Rick: Yes, it Joe: And Rick: Is. Joe: Just for Rick: Yes, Joe: The audience Rick: It is a. Joe: Sake, because I didn't even though I watch a shit ton of football, I didn't really understand what color color commentator was. So if you can quickly, you know, explain what that means, because I don't want to I don't want to give it the wrong description. Rick: Ok, I, I've been doing play by play, which is a different role for a long time, going back to when I was in college, I'd been doing play by play of high school and college games for, I got back into it at least 10, maybe 12 years ago, and I was working for Comcast here in Denver doing games play by play. So it wasn't like this whole thing of being at the booth was foreign to me. So four years ago. Ed McCaffrey was the color commentator on the radio on the Broncos flagship station. Ed McCaffrey, great football player, Denver Bronco legend. And he for some reason had to miss a game and so my boss called me like on a Tuesday and he said, "Hey, Ed can't do the game Sunday in Jacksonville, what do you think? You think you can do it?" I was like, yeah, yeah, I can do it. No fear, right?. I'd never been a color commentator before, but I understood the role because I've done play-by-play so much, so I prepped for it really hard and did the game and it went really, really well. And so much so that I thought, you know, you know if Ed ever decides he doesn't want to do this anymore, I'm going to throw my hat in the ring and see if I can get that job. And it happened the following spring. Ed McCaffrey decided that he wanted to spend more time with his kids. He's got at the time, I think he had two kids in the NFL and one in college. Christian McCaffrey, his son, is one of the best running backs in the NFL. So he, he decided he wanted to watch him play more and didn't have time to do this. Rick: So, I did get the job and so the color commentator is a is a different role than play by play. The color commentator has a very short window to try to color up the broadcast, keep in mind, this is radio, not TV. It's different on TV, on TV, you don't have to explain what happened because everybody can see it. On the radio, you have to paint the picture. And so the play by play guy will tell what happened on the play and in some cases even break it down. And then I have about maybe 10 seconds in between plays to say something that he didn't already say that actually add something to the broadcast and moves it forward and kind of resets the next play and so, it's a real challenge. It's a real challenge. I always thought play by play was easier, I still do, I think for me, play by play is easier to do than the color roll. So it was a bit of a learning curve on it. But I really, really enjoy it because it's challenged me for the first time in a long time, not only with the prep that's involved, that it's a lot of prep, but the speed of the broadcast is, is such that, you really got to be on your game because it's moving really fast and you got one shot. So it's like you're a Nik Wallenda, you know, when you're on a tight rope walking across the canyon, there's no safety net. You've got to be on your game. You've got to be super focused. Joe: Yeah, and it has to be Rick: And Joe: This Rick: That's Joe: Super Rick: What I like about Joe: Delicate Rick: It. Joe: Balance between knowing when he's actually done saying what he's going to say in the play by play and where you guys aren't constantly stepping on on top of each other and then there's room for the next play to come in or whatever. I hear it, I just I, I'm baffled at how it gets done so cleanly. Rick: Yeah. And my partner, Dave Logan is one of the best in the business. He is up in the upper elite 1 percent of play by play guys in the world and so the fact that he's so good, of course he could cover up any mistake that I might make or if I if I, you know, stub my toe a little bit, he can completely cover it up in a very smooth way, which I'm sure he's done for me many times, you know, to make the broadcast on good. You know, the fact that I've been in broadcasting so long, well over 30 years, what, 39 years, you know that I'm able to make a broadcast sound good. Joe: No. Rick: Let's figure out a way Joe: Go Rick: To make Joe: Ahead. Rick: It something. Joe: Yeah. So Rick: And Joe: I Rick: So Joe: Just it just as we're talking Rick: That's Joe: About Rick: What I Joe: This Rick: Do. Joe: See how I stepped Rick: Yeah. Joe: Right on top. Yeah, that's right. So is it true? I don't know if if where I heard this, but is it true that you are the only broadcast person doing these NFL games that is not and an ex NFL player. Rick: Yeah, on TV, I don't think there's anybody certainly on ah,  I don't anybody doing NFL games on TV that wasn't a player. There may be one on the radio, but I don't know who that would be. There's only 32 teams. So you got 32 broadcast teams doing it on radio. I don't think there is a guy doing color that didn't play in the NFL. Most of the play by play guys or guys like me that are broadcast, you know, guys, you know, experience broadcast guys. We kind of flipped the formula in our broadcast because Dave Logan played 10 years in the NFL. So you've got to play by play guy that played 10 years in the NFL. And then me being a broadcaster that I know the game, I understand the game, I played a little bit of football myself, so I totally get it. But it is pretty unique. Joe: And you're having to do what is an eight away and eight home? Rick: Yeah, eight home/away and then four preseason games, so 20 games a year. Last year we did twenty one because we had the Hall of Fame game. Joe: Right. And what's the most grueling conflict with the rad... that, you know, the morning drive time show now with you having to do the football games, what what days are the hardest for you? Is it Mondays because of the Sunday game or? Rick: Well, if we play a game like on a Sunday night or Monday night or Thursday night on the road, I don't work the next morning on the radio because we will get into 4:00 o'clock in the morning, sometimes 05:00 in the morning. So I take the morning show off. I do two radio shows a day, I don't know, I don't think you're even aware of it. But I'm do two live radio shows a day. So I do the morning show on the Fox actually from 6 to 9 a.m. from 9 to noon, I do a talk show on K.O.A., which is the Broncos flagship station with Dave Logan and Kathie Lee, who's on with me on the Fox show. So I'm doing six hours of my radio in a day. Joe: I had no idea. Rick: That also also pretty, pretty unheard up in a major market. Joe: Yeah, I had no idea that you were doing that extra stuff, I had only known about the Rick: Yeah. Joe: The Morning show so well. Rick: Well, this is why you don't hear from me much anymore. [laughter] Joe: I don't that's why I'm excited that I have you right now and I can't let you go until I get through Rick: Yes. Joe: A lot of this stuff. So let's let's bounce over to, you know, you and I have this mutual kinship and in playing drums. So when did you start playing? And then we skipped over it a little bit, when you're talking about you and Floorwax and having your band, which was the Groove Hawgs and now you have The Rick Lewis Project and you run the band and, and you and I had this same sort of leadership role in our bands. But when did you start playing drums? Rick: Yeah, I started playing drums at 17, I believe. I played piano when I was a little kid. Ah like classically trained, you know, lessons, piano recitals, all of that. I probably played piano for about three and a half years, I never liked it, but my mom was kind of forcing it on me. I would have much rather been outside playing football or baseball or whatever. So that was always the dilemma for me and I was pretty good. I picked it up pretty quick, I could read music and all of that. And then she finally, she, she gave up and said, "Ok, you can quit piano and do whatever you want." You know, I'd always wanted to play drums, I was always interested in drums but my mom and dad would never get me even a snare drum up. You know, we had five kids in the family, we didn't know we didn't have enough money for, to go out and buy me a drum kit. So I just kind of put that on the back burner, but at 17, somehow my younger brother got a drum kit. I don't know, I don't remember how it happened. Maybe my mom or dad gave it to him for a Christmas gift or whatever, and I started playing drums at 17 and I realized right away, like, you know, I can I can kind of play these. And, so I really took a great interest in it, and I played a lot of self-taught, as you know, played along to records, you know, put headphones on and just play the songs. And so I learned how to play, I think I learned how to play musically, you know, I never took any lessons and so for me, I play like the record because that's how I learned how to play. And like I say, I was so people I don't have chops, I have a chop, I got one. You know, I can play a song, I can play a groove, right? That's all I got, I can play a groove, but Joe: You have more than that, trust me, I've seen you play. Rick: Well, I don't. But I, I played until I was twenty one, when I went to NAU we'd go to the music room, me and a bunch of guys, you know, and we would jam in the music room. Remember I played once in a country bar in Flagstaff. You know, it took a lot of beer to Joe: Yes. Rick: Get up there to do that. And I did it and I just I just loved it. But then when I moved to LA to be an actor, I quit playing drums and I didn't pick up a pair of drumsticks again until I was probably 40 years old, so almost a 20 year span of not Joe: Well. Rick: Playing drums. And then when I was 40, I got it, I got interested again and I bought myself a drum kit and started to try to get up to speed and we formed a band pretty soon after that. That was the Groove Hawgs Band and with the connections I have here in town, I was able to hire the best musicians around here and it was it was a pretty good band. It because of who we were on the radio and Floorwax was in the band too. Because of who we were on the radio and the high profile that we had, we were getting really good gigs. The first gig we ever played was at Red Rocks...sorry, Joe. Joe: I know, it's like man! Rick: Yeah, we opened for the Doobie Brothers and CCR at Red Rocks and it was just amazing! And I was working as hard as I could to get back up to speed. You know, just practicing every day and having had no formal training, you know, was strictly just instinctive, you know, trying to get better and once again, just play the music, just trying to play songs. You know, for some reason, I got a really good natural feel for song structure. So that that, that's a gift. And being able to play drums is probably, it might be my favorite thing I do right now is maybe playing music, which is saying a lot because I do a lot of really cool things. The Groove Hawgs got to play big shows and we played, we opened up for ZZ Top and James Brown and Leonard Skinner and Ted Nugent to Def Leppard. We got to open probably seven shows at Red Rocks. Joe: That's amazing! Rick: We opened for The Who at the Pepsi Center...that was amazing! Back in 2007 or 8, there was The Who and The Pretenders at The Pepsi Center. So we played some really Joe: And you do it right, too, because you have a drum tech and I don't Rick: Good gigs Joe: So you just rollup, with your stick bag on your shoulder and you're like, oh, here. Rick: Yeah, yeah. The whole breaking down Joe: Oh, Rick: The drum kit, Joe: God. Rick: They...love...about it...that's one that's the big downside of playing drums. But luckily for us, you know, we the band gets paid pretty good for doing these gigs and so I can afford to pay my band Joe: Yeah. Rick: Members really well. You Joe: Yeah. Rick: Know, I told you they get paid really well and so I can also afford to have a Joe: Yep. Rick: Drum tech who can do all of that Joe: Yeah. Rick: For me as well. So I'm not in it for the money. Joe: No, Rick: Believe me, Joe: I Rick: This has nothing to do with money for me, just playing music. Joe: Know, I know. And it's too bad. I know right now it's like a kind of a tough question, but you guys are still doing local gigs around town. Like when things get on the other side of what's happening now with COVID-19, you guys will be out doing your normal festivals that, you normally just play like festivals and things, right? You're not. Rick: Yeah, we have a new band, The Rick Lewis Project started in 2013. So seven years in already and once again hired the best musicians around here. We played some big gigs too, which we've opened for Leonard Skinner and you know, many other people like that. We did a show with Ziggy Marley, I mean, we were the only non reggae band on the lineup and pulled it off. We ended up switching like four or five of our songs into reggae songs. I never played reggae before and we pulled it off. So it's it's really, really cool. But yeah, we have a residency at a casino here so that we can play anytime we want, pretty much so we play there about every six weeks. In the summer, we play a lot of festivals and we do still support some big acts. We've got a show in August with Government Mule on the books. Hopefully we'll be able to play it. You know, that type of thing. And others were I mean, we were just in the process of really rounding out our schedule for 2020 when all of this Coronavirus Joe: Yeah. Rick: Hit. Hopefully we can come out of it. You Joe: Yeah. Rick: Know, who knows? I think I think we will. I think by at least July, I would think, we'll be able to start playing live shows again and people will be able to start going to concerts again...I'm optimistic Joe: Yeah. Rick: About that. But Joe: Yeah. Rick: Who knows? Joe: Yeah, it's crazy. So this is something I don't know if I've ever asked you or we talked about and I'll have a few more things, so I'm not going to keep you much longer. But if you had the opportunity with all you know about music and all the musicians you've made and all of the conversations that you've heard, if you had ever had the chance to become a professional touring drummer over being the, you know, the radio personality that you are and all of that, would you ever have chosen that, that lifestyle? Rick: Well, that's a good question! Joe: I know you love performing in front of people. When I watch you play, I'm like, you know, you are so in your element doing it and and you're a great frontman when, when you know, anytime that I've jumped in behind the drums and you've run up to the front of the stage and like, you know, you're a great front man as well. So I just was like, man I wonder if he ever goes God, if I had only started that earlier and, and my path taking me in that direction. Rick: That's a great question! I have no regrets but I do think that looking back on it now, I wish I would have focused more on music than sports because, sports was my whole world back then and now I realize that for most people, your athletic career is over and after high school and if you're lucky, after college. Very, very few get to play professionally or make a living out of playing sports. Looking back on it now, I wish I would have stuck to the piano. You know, I told my mom that recently. I said, I wish you would have forced me to continue to play, just to establish, you know, that side of me. I wish, you know what I did? I did discover drums young enough at 17 that I could have been probably a pretty darn good drummer by now, good enough to tour with a big band. I don't know if I put enough work into it to be that good. I think, I have, I have whats inside of me to be that good but I haven't put in the work you know, because of everything else I do. You know, I wasn't a guy that could sit down and play drums for 10 hours a day, which a lot of guys do it, you might have been one of them. I was a guy who could sit down and play drums for an hour a day. And so that's what I did, you know, for 20 plus years, I would play for an hour a day. That's all I had time for,you know, with a family and an established radio show and everything else that I was doing. But boy, you know what? If I could, I sometimes say, man, if if like Earth, Wind & Fire would hire me to go on a tour, because I love playing funk music, that's my thing. If I could be the drummer and Earth, Wind & Fire on one tour, Joe: Yeah. Rick: that would be hard to turn that down, the really hard to turn that down. But, but, you know, a lot of musicians, a lot of these successful musicians that we all know and love, they've had a lot of hardships along the way and a lot of it's drugs and alcohol. Almost every one of these successful bands goes through that. You know what? I don't know, man, I don't think I'd change anything. You know look look, you know, my friend Danny Seraphine, who is the drummer from Chicago...longtime drummer from Chicago. I just watched a documentary on the band and I think it was on Netflix and drugs and alcohol once again, you know, Terry Kath's ends up killing himself. Maybe accidentally, maybe not. But you watch every documentary on Netflix about a successful rock bands, it's drugs and alcohol that takes them, almost all of them down. I don't know if it would be worth it to have to go through that type of thing but I did take one lesson on drums and that was Danny Seraphine. I told you that, right? Joe: Yeah. Rick: Yeah. Danny, Danny Seraphine came this my basement Joe: Yeah. Rick: Right here that we're sitting in. Joe: He's a sweetheart. Rick: Danny Seraphine came over and spent a weekend, I think, or two or three nights at my house and I got to drum kits set up in my house and he goes, "Hey man, let's get out a jam a little bit." He goes, "I want to see if I can help you." And I was pretty intimidated, but once again, no fear. So we sat down and we played together for like 90 minutes together, side by side. You know, he'd play a lick and I'd try to copy it. You know, that he'd play a groove and I jump in on it. And then he showed me a couple of things and after about 90 minutes, we stopped. He said, said, "You're a good player" and this is a long time ago, this is probably almost 15 years ago, he said, he said, "You're a good player," he goes, "but I can tell you don't have you." He said, "I can tell you you don't think you're a good player." He goes, "You should know you're a good player" and he goes, You have good time", he said "You have a great sense of time, great feel, a great groove." And he said, "Take that with you every time you play and realize that every musician wants a drummer that has those three things, time, feel groove..You said you got it." He says believe me. "That's what all these guitar players want is a drummer like that," he said "they don't want drummers that are playing all over the song and doing drum fills, you know, every break," And he said, "Take that and be confident that you have that." And that really helped me a lot. So that one lesson from Danny Seraphine really meant a lot to me and it gave me the confidence to, you know, be myself in play and play like I do, which is my one chop, I've got the one, I got the one Joe: Yeah. Rick: Here. Joe: Doesn't matter a grooves, it feels great. That's all right, man. All right, so what's next for Rick Lewis? What's...anything that is a super exciting that you can talk about or you know, I know you got a shit ton on your plate, I don't even know how you sleep. But just wondered if there's anything new you wanted to talk about before I let you go. Rick: I've gotten really good at living in the moment and living in the now. Joe

One year ago we listed a business that created a massive amount of activity, garnering ten offers, many above asking price. As part of our incredible exit series, today we welcome a seller who has had some time to reflect on all the things he did right in his sale and share what he has been up to since. Paul Anderson started his career as an accountant, taking the safe path and spending ten years in corporate America. An increasing lack of passion led him to start to build his own lifeboat. He avidly studied Amazon FBA and learned by following experts in the e-commerce space. Although his first launch failed he carried on, honing his awareness of product opportunities out there and eventually he hit it big. Today Paul delves into the building of the business, the pillars of his success, and the components of his path to becoming an exitpreneur. Episode Highlights: Paul's first product's failure to launch and what he learned. How he sourced the second product and what happened in the last quarter of 2016. Funding subsequent stock and the challenges of inventory planning. How Paul stands on all four pillars of a successfully built business as well as that invisible fifth pillar. The scheduling and nitty gritty of the sale process. How the final buyer was chosen and the deciding factors for Paul. Why the highest bidder does not always win. The toughest challenges of running the business. Why Paul decided to sell. What he has been doing since the sale. Tips for building a successful content website. Transcription: Mark: So almost one year ago to the date of the recording of this episode of the podcast I was on a car ride with Joe; you Joe from where was it? It was from Dallas down to Houston and then Houston back up to Dallas. We were meeting with a good friend of ours that lived in Houston and while we were in that car ride you had launched a new listing that went absolutely berserk. And I've referenced this; I think we've actually talked about this on the podcast a few times, I've referenced this deal because it was one of these outlier deals that seem to check every single box and the result was just a massive amount of requests for phone calls and I believe 10 offers within a very short amount of time. And it's been a year since that launched and obviously, the deal closed which we're super happy about but now you finally get to have the seller on the podcast talking about all the things that he did right. Joe: Yeah it's a great time because it's a year out so he gets to look back. And over the years of doing this podcast the people listening have heard us talk about the four pillars; risk, growth, transferability, and documentation and someone might go yeah ok whatever, the reality is that they matter. Paul Anderson sold his business; 10 offers, he checked off every one of these pillars and the six little subtitles under each pillar and then the fifth one which I know Mark there's no fifth pillar, but the fifth one is the man or person or entrepreneur behind the business. Paul being a former CPA turned entrepreneur who outsourced his bookkeeping to a bookkeeper is just a super likable guy, stay at home dad, buttoned up in so many different ways. The end result is I had to clear his schedule; he basically had three conference calls with highly qualified buyers for five days in a row. He was exhausted from it because each one was… Joe: So you had 15 conference calls then. Paul: 15 conference calls. Joe: And I remember again we were in the car going back up to Dallas and you were on the phone pretty much constantly telling people okay let me see if I can arrange a time for you. So there was a lot more requests for conference calls on this deal. Paul: A lot more requests and we say we had 10 offers but finally a few people dropped out because they just didn't want to compete because they knew what it is going to be. And the funny thing is people get concerned about that and we always say right up front look don't get caught up in the hype of multiple offers, don't go beyond your comfort level, offer-wise. We want you to make an offer that works for you and hopefully will work for the seller as well because we want it to go all the way from letter of intent through to due diligence and that's exactly what we wound up with. And oddly enough Paul did not choose as we always say they don't necessarily choose the highest price. He didn't do that. He picked the offer that was best for him and I think it was somewhere $150,000 lower than the highest price. So we talked about a little bit of that process, what makes a good seller, a good buyer, and then we talked about what he's doing today which is really interesting as well so hopefully, everybody will enjoy this podcast. Joe: Absolutely. Paul: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks. Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have an Incredible Exits client on the phone with me. It's Paul Anderson. We sold Paul's business I think; when was it, Paul? Paul: March of last year, so a little under a year ago. Joe: Spring of 2019; so a little under a year ago. So we're going to talk about Paul's exit. We're going to talk about what Paul went through when he built the business, sold the business after he sold the business, and what he's doing now so we're going to get the full picture. Paul welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Paul: Thanks Joe, good to be here. Good to talk to you. Joe: So for the folks listening why don't you give a little bit of background on your professional pedigree and your entrepreneurial journey? Paul: Yeah, sure. So I actually studied accounting and followed that path. I was kind of one of those people that never really knew what I wanted to do. Like some people I think they're just like hey I want to be a TV news reporter or a journalist, I never really had that strong thing tapped me on the shoulder that said this is what you should do so I took a pretty safe practical path. I went into accounting and got my CPA. I spent about 10 years working in corporate America doing accounting and finance jobs and didn't really ever feel like that passion and eventually it started to kind of wear me down. I got to the point where I had to think of something else to do and try to build my own little lifeboat to escape from that because something inside me just didn't feel right anymore doing that. So that's kind of what led into starting a business. So that's in 2016. Somewhere; I don't even remember where I started to hear about Amazon FBA and I kind of consumed everything I could about it like podcasts, there's this guy Manny Coats inaudible[00:06:09.6] Helium10, he had a great podcast back then, Amazing Seller; there's all sorts of good stuff online about the model and that's kind of how it started and I started really small. We can get into it from there but that was kind of the first step, learning about it and seeing like oh I think I could do this. Joe: So you learned about it from podcasts; you didn't pay for a course or anything like that, you were absorbing free information from experts in the space. Paul: I never bought a single course it was all podcasts, Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and I was just… Joe: I love it. Paul: Yeah I can tell you about the first launch which was a total fail but that was like my training course like the very first launch because I learned. Joe: Failure is a great lesson. How much money did you pull together to launch the business and were you working at that point in the CPA business? Paul: Yeah I was still working. It was 2016, I put $5,000 in to do; most of it was an inventory buy so I was on Alibaba like at night trying to find my suppliers talking with China and I put in probably about 5,000 bucks to start on my first product. Joe: Okay. And you just mentioned Helium10; did you use Helium10 to help you find that first product? Paul: Yes. So it's funny like almost all the products I launched I've kind of like encountered in the real world somewhere and the product that turned out to be my big business was I kind of got onto it from a discussion with my parents. We're just having a casual discussion like you would have many times a day and they mentioned this particular thing and I would always in my iPhone put down; anything that seemed interesting I would just like log it in there and then I come back to it. So I had a list of 20 to 30 things going and I went back and started doing some research. I actually was using Jungle Scout back then and I switched over to Helium10 for everything now. Joe: Oh they're both great products; both of them. Manny and Greg have both been on the podcast; great guys. Paul: Yeah, for sure. So I kind of punched it in there and said like oh this looks like; the numbers look good and that's kind of how it started but it really was that conversation being like; I think if there's a lesson there it's being aware, we have so many kinds of filters and blinders on like if you really put yourself in the headspace of looking for opportunities you'd be surprised how many little things you read online or you hear about through friends like this is really popular; there's just all sorts of those little things that pop up that could turn out to be big businesses. Joe: So pay attention to your surroundings; the stuff that you use every day, emerging products in categories and niches and try to pay attention to and think is there an opportunity? Did you use any tools to see if a lot of people were selling in that particular category and that particular product? Paul: I mean Jungle Scout helps with that but mainly you can just go on and kind of assess like if page one everyone's got a thousand reviews and they're really well-known brands or something that's probably going to be a tough place to break into. Joe: Tough barrier; okay. So tell us about your first test, it was an epic fail? Paul: Yeah, so I was really pumped and thought like here it is, this is going to be like my ticket out of full-time work and it's going to be amazing and it was actually an accessory. Have you ever heard of pour-over coffee? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So that was kind of just bubbling up, seeming like oh this is really a trending product… Joe: Too much work; I never bought it because… Paul: Too much work, yeah, but there's a lot of people that are really into the craft obviously a coffee one and having some artisan experience. So I sourced these little wooden coffee stands that's basically used to make pour-over coffee. And it was kind of a cool thing but it turns out products made out of wood can crack and can break and have issues and I was not an expert at sourcing at that point in time so the long story short a lot of the products ended up cracking and breaking. And then once you start getting all these one-star reviews and returns; like my garage was full all around with carts of returned inventory and there wasn't that much demand I think. At the start, I was thinking oh you really got a niche down into this little tiny space and own that and there just wasn't quite enough demand in that space either. So I kind of learned to be a little smarter on sourcing and just to look for ways that things can go wrong inaudible[00:10:31.6] thing that's just so niche that like even if you execute and everything is great like you're going to be selling a couple of units a day. Joe: So how much money did you test and lose on that first product launch? Paul: So that was about 5,000 bucks in and I didn't take to bad a bee but I think I lost about a thousand dollars on it which isn't bad. Joe: Oh that's not bad. Paul: Yeah. Joe: Not enough to make you go away and say okay this didn't work I'm done; I'm going to go back to the corporate world. You got a taste for it and you said okay I just picked the wrong product. Paul: Exactly. And I mean I was still in the corporate world and like 5,000 bucks it's not like a lot of money at the time so it wasn't like I was; I'm like yeah whatever it doesn't matter. At that point, the stakes felt real and high. Joe: Yeah. Paul: Because it definitely was like I can see the power here on Amazon it's just like finding the right thing to really get this thing spinning. Joe: Okay. So you learned a lesson; you only lost 20% of your money but you get an excellent education from it better than any course you could have ever purchased. You went out there tried it, failed, learned, and didn't lose so much that you couldn't do it again. So you came up with another product niche and decided to go at it again? Paul: Exactly yes. So then I was actually going over to; are you familiar with the Canton Fair which is the big supplier…? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So I had a trip booked to go over there and kind of in-between going there… Joe: Just out of curiosity did you book it with a group or was it just you? Paul: Just me and my wife went over. Joe: Oh okay, because I was just talking to Athena from China Magic and they have a group of folks that go on a regular basis for those that are terrified to go alone. So you and your wife chose to book a flight to China and go to the Canton Fair alone. Paul: I loved it. It was really, really full out and I'm eager to go over there. Joe: Okay. Paul: I actually ended up finding my supplier on Alibaba before I went so I can't really say that the trip necessarily paid off in terms of like… Joe: Did you connect with him in person when you got to the Canton Fair? Paul: No because it was still too early and he was pretty far away from the Canton Fair. I think it helped me really see kind of like the culture of China and doing business with China and I think just a little savvier about how things work. So it was a great education for that and just like a lot of fun to check it out; I mean the place is just massive, like multiple football fields. Anything you want to ever source it would be out there so it was a super interesting spot. But anyway back to your second question so yes I stumbled upon this other product and started kind of the wheels turning in 2016 to source it. I got it on I think in the fall of 2016 and I remember that Q4 for Amazon or e-commerce is like the prime time and I remember just refreshing that seller app that Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like all through up until Christmas and it was just mind-blowing the sales that were coming in off this new product. Joe: What was it like your first day that you got a sale, how many sales did you have all together; do you remember? Paul: Oh I mean it started slow. The first thing was probably just two or three units. I mean it's really; it was in such a momentum game like when you have no momentum it's hard to keep momentum and then once you get this momentum going and the wheels start spinning it can blow your mind like the amount of sales that… Joe: And that actually blew our mind within the first month or in that first quarter like what did you wind up with on the biggest day within a couple of months of launching it in the Q4 of ‘16? Paul: I don't want to say maybe like $8,000 of sales there. Joe: Oh, wow. Paul: Something big like and then when you look at the profits from that it's like wow I made more money like on this one day than; and I had a pretty decent corporate job, I'm like this is crazy like the potential. So the hooks kind of got in me right there and then '16 was kind of just getting off the ground and then the next year is when the ball really started to roll. Joe: When you started to get revenue in the fourth quarter of 2016 and sales started to come in you had euphoria with the fact that you were getting that kind of revenue and making more money in one day than you made perhaps in a month in the corporate world but did you also have the fear of oh my God I'm going to run out of inventory? Paul: I did. Joe: Okay. Paul: Yeah, inventory is like not something glamorous to talk about and you don't really hear about it that much in podcasts or anything else but it's like running a physical products company doing an Amazon business like the inventory planning is so difficult because your sales can change on a dime. inaudible[00:15:20.7] your supplier 30 days early to make something and another 30 days to put them on a ship to get it over here. So you've got these difficult variables to manage that can leave you stocked out or even a little bit too much stuck so that's always a tough thing to manage. Joe: Awesome. I don't think I've ever met an Amazon seller or an e-commerce business person that's been growing rapidly that's not run out of inventory at one point or another. All right, so you started with $5,000, did a test, failed, how long between the first failed test and the second product that took off; how many months was it? Paul: That was about three months I think. Joe: Okay, and all the time you kept your day job which is fantastic. So you've got some revenue, you've got some money in the account that's transferred to your business account, at what point did you order more inventory with and did you just use that money or did you sit down and talk as a family and say okay this is a winner we need to take a home equity line of credit; how did you fund the rest of the inventory purchases? Paul: It was all really funded with profits. Joe: It was? Okay. Paul: Yeah, it was. Joe: And you didn't have to take any money out for living expenses because you had your day job so that's perfect. Paul: Yeah. If I wouldn't have my day job it would have made it much more difficult but luckily I had some steady income coming in on the day job and then I was able to just take the profits and reinvest them back in and just go from there. Joe: Fast forwarding you had an amazing 2017, an amazing 2018; strong year over year growth, like huge year over year growth. For those listening, Paul's business was listed again spring of 2019 and it's those perfect situation folks where we talk about the four pillars of a sellable business and that invisible fifth one which is the person behind the business and that's Paul. We have a 30-month-old Amazon business with an incredible brand that's growing rapidly year over year. The financials we're set up impeccably. Paul is a CPA but he did something incredible which was what? You outsourced the books to an e-commerce bookkeeper; brilliant by the way. So those of you that are out there saying oh I can do this I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks to a bookkeeper we've got a CPA here that chose to outsource to an e-commerce bookkeeper because he can do better things than bookkeeping with his time like grow a multi-million dollar Amazon brand which is exactly what you did. Your business checks so many boxes. It was SBA eligible. You were the owner behind the business. You built trust. People believed in you. During the recorded video interview, you're the first person; and I keep asking people to do it now, you're the first person that ever sat in front of the camera, reached down picked up the product and demonstrated the product. You showed the new packaging that you had just done. It was beautiful and the end result was an overwhelming request to buy the business, conference calls where you had to clear your schedule for a week. I said Paul cancel everything, right? We had to clear it and we ended up with I think three calls with qualified buyers every day for five days. We wound up with 10 total offers. I think we were at; the top one was something like $150,000 over asking price. Paul: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, and we say this all the time that it's not always the offer that comes in with the highest number, it's the right fit more than anything else. We had; of the 10 offers, I think we had maybe six that were SBA and four that were cash. You ended up choosing a cash buyer and not just because it was a cash buyer but also the person behind the business. We did video interviews between the buyer and seller. How much did that matter and how much of a difference did that make for you? Paul: The interviews mattered a ton. I mean that was the deciding factor because when I went into the process I just thought like well it's pretty simple, right? You take the highest number and the highest bidder wins but as you get into it and talk to different people it's like a huge diverse set of backgrounds that people are coming through Quiet Light looking to buy, right? Joe: Right. Paul: And some people I felt like wow I could just hand this to them and they could run with it immediately and do like as good or better a job with this than I ever could. And others are like hey I really like this person and their heart is in the right place but I feel like the transition might take a little bit longer and then what if somewhere they dropped the ball and things get sideways like I don't want that somehow to come back to me. I don't know if that's a rational way to think about it but if there was a lot of comfort like feeling this guy or these guys I feel like really got it, they get it, they know what to do, they will hit the ground running from day one so to me that mattered a whole lot. Joe: Yeah. And I think given the fact that we're in this remote world where your buyers and sellers are all over the world literally sometimes doing a video conference call for that initial call breaks the ice. You're not reading the client interview anymore, you're not just talking to somebody on the phone; you can see the whites of their eyes and anybody that wants to see Paul we're recording this both on Zoom with video and audio and it will be up on the YouTube page as well. He does not look like a buttoned-up CPA today and I was making fun of him when we first got on the call. You've always looked like that but today you know what you're a successful exitpreneur. You got the sweatshirt on, a little stubble, working from home; I love it. All right so I want to you ask a couple of things just for the audience purposes. Number one back to running the business what was the toughest challenge in running the business? Let's start with that. Go ahead. Paul: Yeah. I'd say even at the start this isn't even a tactical thing but the hardest thing was just getting the momentum going. Starting an Amazon business is not like hey I'm trying to create an electric car and beat Elon Musk but even me like I had a lot of doubts at the start like is this is going to work, am I going to lose all my money? All of these doubts kind of creep into your head so I remember really kind of struggling to pull the trigger in a way thinking like I just don't know is this supposed to be my pathway? So I think that was really hard to overcome and you just kind of keep going one foot in front of the other and once you get a little momentum it just like brings all this energy and life into you that you just feel so energized to just keep improving and add products and make your products better and make the packaging better. Getting that first momentum can feel elusive and challenging so I think that was like a big thing at the start. Joe: And you failed and then you stuck with it and then you succeeded. Paul: Yeah. And I was kind of at an inflection point like should I keep going or is this just not meant to be and then you know. Joe: This may be a dumb question but are you glad you kept going? Paul: I'm very glad. It changed my life that I kept going. I mean I'd still be sitting at a desk in corporate America right now I hadn't kept going and like we've got a three-year-old son at home like the physical time we will spend with him and then mentally my head is so much like the stress is away from me. So I was always stressed working in corporate America so it's been the biggest blessing ever to go out and do this. It's changed my whole family's life. Joe: Okay. So let me ask the question that all buyers ask, why did you sell the business? Paul: Yeah, it was a tough decision to sell because I was having so much fun running it. And I think the honest answer is the value of the business became such that it really could provide a lot of security for our family. And it felt like if I was 23 and single and didn't have kids I'll like alright instead of going for this I might have just keep on going and try to sell it for three times this or five times this or just keep going. But knowing Amazon can be volatile and like I had all my eggs in that basket so it just felt like the responsible thing is to take some chips off the table and let go of the business but it was really hard. Joe: The responsible thing; I like that, the responsible thing. Your CPA background is coming out now. That's good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right so what was the toughest part about going through the sales process and selling the business; what was the hardest part there? Paul: Picking a buyer was really tough. Joe: It's a good problem. That's a good problem to have. Paul: I mean just even knowing how to approach it and you really helped a ton Joe in that process. When it's your first time through and you already have kind of these emotions like you built this thing and now it's worth something that people want it, it's a weird feeling and like how to value it and how to find the right fit and thinking about SBA versus cash; there's just a lot of things that are spinning through your head at that time so I think just getting a clear head and trying to identify what the right fit was the toughest part. Joe: Okay. I think you again exception rather than really had 10 offers, I think maybe one or two might have come in slightly under asking price but the vast majority was above. I think 2019 the average offers that we had on any single listening was two and a half so you are five times that amount which is pretty exceptional. That goes to the brand that you built. It goes to the way that you set the business up with its own entity. You didn't come and go books. You're a CPA but you hired a professional bookkeeper. You instilled so much confidence in buyers. They clearly came out of the woodworks to buy your business. All right, the toughest part was choosing the buyer; that's amazing. It's not what I would've guessed you would have said. Sometimes it's due diligence but with you, it was choosing a buyer. All right so now there's life after the sale, you were in the corporate world working 40, 50 hours a week or sometimes more in tax season and then you're an entrepreneur working from home spending time with your son now what are you doing? You've sold the business nine months ago, what are you doing with your time? Paul: Yeah so it's been nice to have a little; in life usually you're just like chasing after the next thing and I've had just the time to step back and think really what I want to do and what I want my life to look like so it's been like a real luxury. So I'm going into; I'm building a website, it's called WealthFam.com. Joe: Fam like family? Okay. Paul: Yup like family. It's brand new but basically it sort of like combines my background and what I like to do. So it's all about building wealth; becoming financially independent, starting and running online businesses. Basically, it's how to be smarter with your money and use the money to help kind of enable the life that you want to live whether it's being with your kids or going on trips or whatever else. So it's a content site which is a super interesting thing. I thought a lot about going back and doing another Amazon business but I just didn't feel the same spark for like starting it and it takes a lot of energy and mental fortitude to take something from A to Z and you've got to really want it kind of every step of the way. So this just kind of really energized me and there's been some great stories like Ramon's story; you featured Ramon. It like blew my mind the… Joe: His content site, yeah. Paul: And that happened in the content space so that was really exciting to me. And on top of that I just like doing this stuff so it feels like the right sort of fit. Joe: So what kind of subjects are you going to cover on Wealth Fam? Paul: So it's broken down a couple of categories like making money, saving money, investing money, financial independence, and then some stuff like how money intersects with having a kid and being married or buying a house. So I'm trying to make it like a modern personal finance site that people in their teens, 20s, 30s, can find well like at least from my experience like education society; like our schools and in general, there's not a lot of like real training about… Joe: There's none of it. There's none of it, yeah. Paul: And there's even a lesson mode like starting an online business and like the potential kind of betting on yourself. Joe: It seems like a great idea because you're taking your educational experience along with your entrepreneurial experience and marrying them together with a content site which is great. I love content sites. We work with SaaS, content, and FBA and content is just fantastic. Scott Voelker is really, really focused on helping people go beyond FBA and build content sites and some of them have great success and its driving more traffic back to FBA and getting their business products sold. For those that aren't familiar with content site monetization, how do you plan to monetize the site? Paul: So there's a couple of traditional ways that people will do it. So, first of all, you have to have traffic. I mean if I have traffic inaudible[00:28:43.3] selling eyeballs like it's tough to; getting traffic is really hard and you're playing like this SEO game and it takes a long time to rank in Google. Then there's a couple of primary ways, the first is affiliate links like you could be selling a course or selling something on Amazon or selling; the Amazon FBA thing is a really interesting thing for Amazon sellers to marry their inaudible[00:29:04.9] business with content. I love that idea. I think that's really smart. There's brand sponsorships, other partnerships; but it's like advertising and affiliate income are kind of the two main plays for monetizing. Joe: I got you, okay. All right how's life at home; what do you do with your time? I mean you've you don't have a job. You're starting a content site which might take a little bit of your time. You've got a baby. Paul: It takes a lot of time. Joe: It takes a lot; the startup phase is always the hardest, isn't it? Paul: Inaudible[00:29:38.4] the thing I underestimated about content is that like writing is really hard. Joe: Yeah. Paul: I think oh I can write something about Amazon, that's easy, I know this. It takes a lot of time to really do a good job at clarifying your thoughts but overall I'm just trying to optimize my life for happiness and contentment and I get that right now being with my son and my wife. So I spend a lot of time with my family. We do a lot of cool stuff together. And I'm really liking; I do some Amazon consulting because I'm still at the Amazon blog and I like to be involved in it so I'm doing some of that for some local companies which I love doing.   Joe: Good. Paul: And then this content thing really is exciting and fun and I'm going to see where it can go and… Joe: So you didn't make enough on the sale of your business to never work again but enough to give you a pretty long runway and you're enjoying your expertise in the Amazon space and doing some consulting while you're building up another content or a content business? Paul: Yeah that's a fair way to… Joe: Does that sum it up? Paul: Yeah and I'd like to go up those kind of shift too, right? I'm not sure how in-tune you are with the financial independence world, all the people that want to retire early and be financially… Joe: Oh yeah, fire. Paul: So like if your burn rate or you can live on 40 grand a year once you stacked up a million bucks, in theory, you can quote-unquote retire. Joe: Sure. Paul: But as you think about education and college and healthcare and all these other things that number maybe gets a little bit… Joe: It gets blown out of the water. I have an 18-year-old and we're 14 days away from knowing what he's getting into which is schools and I'm rooting for the in-state schools; I'm not going to lie to you, I'm rooting for the in-state. Paul: Hey, I went to an in-state school and… Joe: Look at how it turned out; pretty damn good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right cool. Well, listen Paul I always tell the story about you and your brand and the fact that that fifth pillar makes a huge difference. It's the person behind the business that builds a great business with the next owner in mind. You kind of did that, I don't know if you did it intentionally or not but you said I'm going to build a great business. I want to put it all in a package that's going to help the new owner of the business do amazing things with it. And Matt the new owner of the business as you know is doing amazing things with it. And it pays off when you think about others exactly what you did that paid off for you, it paid off for your family, and now hopefully through Wealth Fam, it's going to pay off for a lot of other visitors to your website as well so people can start young and start smart and get on the right path financially. So listen man thanks for your time. I appreciate the business that you've built because it allows me to tell a story of how the person behind the business makes a tremendous difference so thank you and I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Paul: You got it. Anytime. Thanks a lot, Joe. Links and Resources: Paul's Website Jungle Scout Helium 10

Cash-flow forecasting can be the key to running, building, and eventually selling your e-commerce business. Today's guest is an accountant and successful business builder who helps owners run their businesses with successful financial results. Aside from traditional accounting, his firm offers fractional CFO services to his clients. As we have said many times here on the podcast, bookkeeping is not something business owners should do without an expert. Today we are talking to accounting expert Tyler Jeffcoat. Tyler built and sold a  healthcare company and has experienced the acquisition process firsthand. In building his current business, Seller Accountant, he made sure that his focus was razor sharp on what he could offer to clients in order to deliver top results. Episode Highlights: How Tyler's fractional services work for the clients. How his service cost is offset by the value why it's less expensive than inhouse. Cash-flow forecasting and how it helps owners with profitability Ways operation data plays into the full forecast. The impact of not forecasting. Refinancing and SBA lending as an option in a moment of need. The importance of SKU grading to keep on top of product performance. The difference between cash and accrual accounting Tools that can help the layman forecast on his own. Why you need to track your numbers on an inventory value. The benefit of outsourcing while focusing on core expertise. Transcription: Mark: So Joe I'm normally not a big advocate of business but I'm becoming more and more of one and in the entrepreneurial community people always ask what book are you reading now and I'm usually thinking well it was actually on World War II or some other kind of obscure topic. Because when I'm off of work I like to be off of work. But this past year I picked up a few different business books based on some recommendations. And one that I read that I would recommend to anybody is Shoe Dog by Phil Knight; the founder of Nike. And I don't want to give away a lot of secrets with this book because honestly, it's a great read; it reads more of like just a novel or story of how he started Nike but one of the things that really resonated with me specifically because we deal with so many people that have Amazon businesses was how long Nike had problems with cash flow and how long that they were living on the float. And they were living on a very large float where they were writing checks that weren't in the bank account yet and they were counting on that money being in there. It's the nature of any growing business especially a physical product business is that the cash flow comes in, you reinvest in the product, you keep growing at a rapid rate. It can be really hard to manage that cash flow. And I know that we talked to Scott Dietz a few weeks ago on forecasting but forecasting doesn't really matter if you don't have any cash in the bank and you're closing the loop on this or kind of continuing this conversation today with Tyler Jefcoat about cash flow forecasting. Joe: Yeah Tyler and I have been working together off and on with a variety of different clients. Tyler owns Seller Accountant and he's just a smart guy. He's built his own company, sold it, and then started any commerce bookkeeping company specifically focused for the most part on his own businesses. Mark: Is that a phone I hear in the background? Joe: No, that was not a phone at all. No. Mark: I figured that you're so busy people are calling you all the time. Joe: No, that's my wife actually. Sorry folks. Sorry. Tyler, yes but the really cool thing about what Tyler does is cash flow forecasting, right? So he does fractional CFO services on top of is bookkeeping services and only for his own clients. And he does in the different levels. He does monthly reviews with some, quarterly reviews of some, and then gets into deeper reviews with others. But the cash flow forecasting model that he went over and shared with me I saw it on another video in a webinar that he did and then I had him show it to me and then he's sharing it in the show notes of this podcast. It's a cash flow model along with the video that talks about it and I know going back to my e-commerce days before I sold I did that; I did the float just like Phil Knight, a little smaller level of course. Mark: But just like Phil Knight. Joe: Just like Phil Knight, but it was the same thing. You are paying for that inventory with a credit card or you're just playing the flow and it's ridiculous. Fortunately for me, I didn't have a big staff but those that are growing beyond that solopreneur aspect and they have to worry about payroll and things of that nature I think it's really, really important to focus on cash flow. So Tyler goes over that quite a bit here and the links in the show notes will help anybody that's having issues in that area. Mark: These are fantastic tools to put in our war chest of things that we can use as business owners to be able to plan the growth of our businesses. So forecasting is something I've been skeptical in the past. Again the conversation with Scott Dietz and my experience with forecasting through his company has really turned me around to this and now I'm super excited to see this because again cash flow forecasting might be one of the most important things in a business as it's growing. Joe: It's important but what else is important? I've got to call my wife back so let's go to the podcast. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today well I ranted in the intro with Mark about bookkeeping. I've talked to at least 5,000 entrepreneurs over the last seven years and the vast majority of those when it comes to bookkeeping they say I got this and the reality is they don't. So we've got an expert on the podcast here, Tyler Jefcoat from the Seller Accountant. Tyler, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Tyler: Thanks, Joe. Thanks for having me. Joe: I could rant and rave for hours on time about this because it's the number one reason people don't sell their businesses or sell them for a heck of a lot less. Somebody said to me the other day Tyler that when they think about their P&Ls they bleed from their eyeballs and I think that sums it up for how a lot of people feel. Alright so as you know on this podcast we don't do fancy intros, we want to hear from you so tell us about yourself and your business. Tyler: Yeah, well thanks again for having me. My company is Seller Accountant. I'm coming at this as a guy who sold a health care company about two years ago. We had a good run; zero to a hundred employees in about four years and I was a minority guy and I went through the M&A process and it was interesting. So as we built this accounting firm; I'm an accountant, we really built it around two ideas, Joe. One was we wanted to have a very vertical focus so we only do e-commerce and the second thing is that we want to focus on not just the price of admission of just having clean books but having the ability to use data to drive profitability. So I think that's why you and I have resonated with each other so well was I want to partner with brokers that really have the best interest of clients at heart and your clients all have the same issues which is we got to have investor great books so we can go to market and so yeah man it's great to be here. Joe: Cool. Everybody that's listening knows how I do feel about the books but I want to go beyond what you do at Seller Accountant. You manage people's books, you do an incredible job with that, do you streamline it? It's not expensive. It's much better for their bottom line than if they had an in-house bookkeeper. There's no question that that math works but let's talk about some of the additional services you do. I saw a video where you talked about your fractional CFO services, where you talked about cash flow analysis, Cost of Goods Sold analysis and some of those things. What are the top two or three things that you focus on with clients on I guess is your fractional CFO services that you do that for? Tyler: It is and is still part of Seller Accountant but in addition to just doing the bookkeeping each month for a bunch of Amazon and other e-commerce sellers we provide a fractional CFO service. And so I think what makes it powerful Joe is that we're just crazy focused; again we're crazy focused, my eyes don't blink when I look at a P&L for e-commerce but I do it all day long. And so our ability to step into somebody's business and see things differently because we look at it kind of like you do Joe honestly; you're looking at P&Ls constantly also but then focus on kind of the big things on a macro level. How does a seller really understand how their sales channels are performing over time? So that kind of goes back to the visibility of the book but it's more important than that, it's understanding okay, is Amazon the right channel for me to focus on versus Shopify? That's kind of one of the big discussions. And then we tend to the other kind of macro discussion as you allude to is around cash flow. This is a cash hungry business that we run; this e-commerce retail and a lot of the sellers tend to be undercapitalized meaning they're not coming to the table with 2 million dollars in free cash to just dump in inventory. And so our ability to understand not just what we think our sales are going to be next year but what we think our actual cost are going to be related to inventory when we're going to have to spend that money, that's critical. And so that's a discussion we have with our clients and then honestly just understand the profitability of our different product lines and SKUs. Those are areas where we can really help our clients not just know what the bottom line is for a given month but help them get the data they need to make better decisions as a CEO. Joe: And you do this as part of the fractional CFO services. You meet with these clients once a month after you review their P&Ls and you do a deeper dive. Are there other different levels of fractional CFO services where you're spending more time with some than others; how does it work? Tyler: Yeah there are and at this point, most of our CFO clients are bookkeeping clients that have chosen to layer on the CFO service. The reason for that is it is very challenging for me to add a lot of value efficiently for you if I don't understand your books and you just have a really nice way of doing the books. So yes they can choose to have quarterly calls. We have some that will meet even less frequently but it's basically normally quarterly or monthly. And we have some things in the pipeline that may allow us to just generate some value and it'd be a little bit less can you get on Tyler's calendar because I think that can be something that can be prohibitive. But at this point, we've got a great monthly service, a great quarterly service, and I think maybe it'll be somewhere around the neighborhood of 70 million dollars in e-commerce sales that I'm responsible for; me and my team for just the CFO side of it this year. And so it gives us an update that we can speak intelligently about what's happening in the business. Joe: You must be very expensive then, yes? Tyler: Oh man we're so expensive, yeah. No, you know what I mean. I would say we provide extreme value to our clients. And I would just say this we're not cheap; I don't want to be cheap, you want the provider that you can partner with us providing superior value. But I will say this we are way less expensive than actually trying to hire somebody. And if we can generate the kind of value that makes your business grow or allows you to get maybe a better multiple when you go to market in a year I don't think we're charging nearly enough for that to be honest with you and I love it, man. This is the fun part of the business; it's really understanding how to help business owners make money. How do we actually turn this pile of work into a profitable business? And so for me, this is kind of what gets me out of bed. So it's really I'm an accountant, of course, it's about money; we want to make a living but this is a part of the business I'm passionate about. Joe: Well let's talk about some of those individual things you do as the fractional CFO provider. I saw a cash flow forecasting video that you did. This is an enormous problem for e-commerce business owners and a lot of will just go the way of an Amazon loan at 14, 15%. I guess it's lower when you do the math. But talk to us about the cash flow forecasting that you do for these clients and how that helps them in terms of profitability. Tyler: Yeah. So when it comes to cash flow forecasting I think where most entrepreneurs stop is they take the time to open a spreadsheet and say what do I think my sales are going to be in the next six months? By the way, I would caution you there, if you ever run a forecast in the future of your business and every month in the future is way more profitable than your last six months of them, there's a good chance that you are kind of suffering from optimism that happens. All of us entrepreneurs we love running our businesses and we're like just tomorrow we're going to make money, now next month that's going to be wildly profitable. Joe: You're delusional. We know that after doing this for so long that there is great years and bad years. Tyler: You may run into a P&L and somebody hasn't made money in a year and they're like but guess what Joe tomorrow we're going to make money. And so my encouragement is to go ahead and be honest with yourself about how your business is performing and take a minute to say okay based on our seasonality, based on the products we're going to launch; as the actual owner of these e-commerce businesses you guys are in the best position to guess what your sales are going to be next year and put them in a spreadsheet Expected Sales, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And then if you look at your historical data you can say okay our cost of goods sold, our margins have tended to be at a certain level. And so most entrepreneurs are pretty good at building a forecast around what their operation is going to generate. We kind of know what our overhead is. We kind of know what our advertising budget is going to be. We know if our rent's going to go up next year. And so you got to do that work but a lot of entrepreneurs stop there and you can't stop there. Because of the impact of debt and the impact of inventory and the impact frankly of taxes you need to take that operational data and then work it into a full cash flow forecast for maybe the next year or the next six months. And so the way we do it is we take that baseline info that I just mentioned; how much profit are you expecting your operation to generate each month over the next six months or a year. Okay, great, now tell us what your loan payments are going to be, what's the cash coming out of your business for; for that Amazon loan or for your SBA loan or for your line of credit. Okay great, let's take that into account each month and then inventory forecasting can be kind of tricky. The more I thought about this I think it just needs to be simple. You have an average amount of days that it takes you to; you're going to issue a PO and you're going to get your container sent from China or wherever you're getting your goods. And so if I have forecasted that in April I'm going to have $30,000 in cost of goods sold then I'm going to have to pay for that $30,000 in inventory probably about 90 days before that. And so if you know what the waiting times are in your inventory you can use your forecast that you just did for your quote-unquote P&L; your profit and loss to basically guess okay I'm going to need to have that 30 grand in the bank in January so that it's ready to sell in April. And I mean they're going to have to fund that inventory purchase with some kind of great terms with the supplier or I'm going to have to have a loan, I'm going to have cash in the bank. And so what I advise the clients to do is to kind of what are my inventory purchases going to be? This is not a surprise. It's going to take a few months to fulfill it. Let's get that on this cash flow picture and then the other thing that you might consider is if there's going to be any owner distributions including your CPA may have you take a tax distribution once a quarter to keep Uncle Sam happy. And so this all goes together; your operations, your financing activities, your inventory, and then lastly the investing kind of from your owners and it's going to give you; it's not uncommon to have a picture where you expected to make money in the month of January, on paper you have profit but because of your debt payments or because of your purchases of future inventory your cash flow is actually negative for that same month. And so we just blew a spreadsheet; in fact, I'm glad to share it with you. I just have it in a Google Sheet here where we try to understand the impact of all of those factors on cash flow. So if there's going to be a negative on the sheet I knew it now instead of it being an emergency. Joe: We'll link that up so people can use it and try it themselves and then reach out to you for help if they need it. But what's the impact? You talked about good money at good rates versus bad money at bad rates. So what's the negative impact if they didn't do the forecasts and they come up against the month of January and they need to get a loan somewhere; what do you see people do and what's the drawback of having little to no notice of it? Tyler: Yeah. So there's two major impacts. One is if I know that I'm going to run out of cash in six months I can make two important adjustments that I don't have the luxury of making if I'm right on top of that shortfall. So if I've got six months I can cut expenses. If I need to actually lower some overhead if I need to renegotiate my rent if I need to do anything if I need to slow down if I need to go to my suppliers and renegotiate those payment terms. I've got some internal leverage. In other words, I know how important it is to me because I know I'm out of money say in April if I don't figure this out now. The second thing is if I know I'm going to run out of cash in four to six months I've bought myself a bunch of time to go find the right kind of loan if I have to pick up some debt on the balance sheet. And just as you alluded to I've got six months and have a pretty good business I might be able to get through SBA underwriting, I might be able to get all sorts of favorable lending options but if I wake up and realize oh crud tomorrow I'm out of money I don't have a lot of options. I'm going to take whatever money is going to fund me in the next week. And I would say that's where a lot of sellers get in trouble. They haven't forecasted effectively and so now they're out of money. They've got to fulfill that PO tomorrow and so now they're in a bind where how are they going to get stuff on the shelves to be able to sell it. And so yeah that's what I would say to that. Joe: So on the SBA underwriting, if somebody owns an e-commerce business and they've got good financials, they've owned it for a while and they use services like yours you're seeing them able to go out and get SBA financing to help with cash flow of their current business. Tyler: Yeah I think there's; I don't know that I've seen; I've seen more SBA lending when the deals come together for an actual exit but I will say this if you have a couple of years of good financials and you're carrying some debt I've definitely seen some of our clients refinance other lines of credit using SBA lending once they have a couple of years of good financial history. Joe: That makes sense. Tyler: You can go through the underwriting and what ends up happening is the bank has a much lower risk profile because the SBA; the government is going to back a certain percentage of that loan. And so it's always going to be your best terms, your best interest rate; the underwriting is a bit of a pain but again if you have six months you can get through that process and explore that as an option instead of having to take whatever emergency lending process. Joe: Yeah for those that don't understand the terms on the SBA lending it's generally 10 years and the interest rate is somewhere between 5 ½ to 8 ½%. Compare that to an Amazon loan where the term is somewhere between 14 and 15%; I'm sorry the interest rate and the term is generally 12 months. They take it out of your account as they make deposits. Tyler: And I've seen Amazon be as high as 19, 20 percent and they will underwrite it down to 11 but it never gets anywhere close to touching the SBA. Joe: Yeah, it's incredibly convenient. There's no question about it but there's a pretty steep cost that comes along with it. Tyler: The only one that steeper is when you have to get more of what's called like a payday funding option maybe like a Payability; nothing wrong. It's a good service in the right context but those cost capital numbers end up getting up in the 25, 30% range if you're not careful and that can really crush your business. Joe: Okay, cash flow taking, money off the table, these things are what keep entrepreneurs up at night so I love the fact that you help them with that and we'll share that in the show notes. Let's jump on to something that I think is incredibly important when we talk to people about selling their business. Well ultimately we're going to help them when they're ready but we'd prefer to talk to them 12 to 18 months in advance so that they're working with someone like you in order to prepare the best exit possible. And we often talk to them about renegotiating their cost of goods sold, focusing in on those inventories that are hero SKUs and those that are just okay. We always say you can break even doing nothing so why bother but often when it looks like they're breaking even they lose money. You help them focus in through your fractional CFO services on hero SKUs, cost of goods sold, things of that nature; yes? Tyler: Yeah I think something that's really important whether you have a fractional CFO or you do it yourself, it's extremely important to do a SKU grading. So I don't even care if you have a thousand skews you have to have some kind of a system for understanding which product lines are successful and which ones are losers. Which ones are the heroes like you said Joe, which ones are duds? And I have been shocked; I've been continually shocked as we do these analyses for clients to see that a guy's favorite SKU is taking them like an 80% advertising budget to move the SKU. Joe: That doesn't sound profitable. Yeah. Tyler: No, that's bad. Yeah. And just in case you're wondering, an 80% advertising budget is terrible. But they didn't know that because it's buried in this entire pile of SKUs and so it's extremely important to understand at least occasionally how each of your products is performing so that you can support the good ones, renegotiate the bad ones, or kill them. Joe: Yeah. So revenue insanity profit; no revenue is vanity, profit is sanity. So it gets down to understanding your profit and loss statements, digging into revenue by SKU, profit by SKU. I get most people don't get this. A lot of people that I work with that come across like I did early on I tell people openly I fell asleep in accounting class in college. I've since had to adapt and learn and now I understand it very, very well. But most people don't understand the simple difference between cash and accrual accounting and that when you're selling a business the books need to be presented on an accrual basis. Can you describe the difference between the two in layman's terms? That's the challenge; layman's terms. Tyler: Sure. So simply put if you have cash going out of your business, say you're buying inventory to actually stroke the check and you have a deposit coming into your business say the deposit from Amazon and you book that sale when the cash hits your account and you book that expense when you pay the money that's called cash basis accounting. And from a compliance tax standpoint, for most small businesses that is acceptable. But here's the problem and you got anyone who's looked at their P&L and saw a negative gross profit for a month. When you look at there and say why did I sell $100,00 this month but all of a sudden had $200,000 of inventory expenses? That doesn't make any rational sense. The reason is that you book the entire inventory the day you stroke the check instead of having the inventory asset and expensing it slowly as you sell the goods. And so in an accrual accounting method, you are on a quest to attach the sales dollar to the expenses that are associated with that dollar. So if I sold; let's just use that same number, if I sold $100,000 on Amazon in November I want to know how much it actually cost me; what the actual inventory expense for those units were that I sold in that month. And so you can kind of tell me and hear me say it's a little more difficult. Getting good accrual books takes a little bit more work. You have to deal with receivables. You've got to book things a little bit more sophisticatedly but it's the only way to be able to answer the question Joe did I make money last month? Because if you're doing it on a cash basis you really have no idea. You know when you've made your investments but you don't actually know whether your business is profitable unless you have an accrual system. Joe: And is that something that; I know it's hard to set up in Quick Books online but what do people have to have? Their landed cost of goods sold or their cost of goods sold the freight might be separate in your P&Ls; is it something that a layman could set up and figure out and flip to or does it really take a tremendous amount of experience like you have? Tyler: Well it could. I mean I don't want to; let me just say it's worth the effort. I will say this for everyone who's listening to this to this podcast if you haven't explored a tool called A2A accounting; literally the letter A, the number 2, the letter A. So A2A Accounting, I think it's A2Aaccounting.com that is a tool that lets you kind of pre map Amazon journal entries and it makes doing the accruals a lot easier. Well, what makes e-commerce so challenging is that Amazon pays us every 14 days normally and some of those sales might have happened in one month but I'm getting the entire paycheck from Amazon in the next month. And so I would say Joe yes normally having somebody that really understands e-commerce accounting is very helpful but for smaller sellers or sellers who don't have the budget to hire a team like mine it's worth learning how to do it and it's worth trying to understand; you mentioned the term landed cost of goods sold if I spend $100,000 on inventory, I've stroke the check, I've sent the wire, I have that inventory now, it's really important that I try to understand what that fully landed value is per unit. So let's say I bought a thousand of a particular SKU I can't just say I spent $100,000 divided by 1,000 so I've got basically was that a dollar SKU, right? It doesn't work that way. Joe: Because you pay the extra 10 cents to ship each individual unit; yeah. Tyler: Yeah you got shipping, tariffs, duties, everything else you need to just do the math. Make sure you have a spreadsheet; call it kind of a Master SKU Spreadsheet and understand what it really costs you per unit to get your product to the customer. And that's probably one of the biggest keys to understand. Joe: And let me just put some reality to this in terms of the why. Look anybody out there listening is like why the hell do I need to do that? The reason is because eventually, you're going to sell your business. You're going to get bought out. You're going to sell it to a partner. You and your partner are going to get in a fight and you're going to want to move in different directions. Or you own it with your wife or husband and you're going to get a divorce or at least half of you are. Or you're going to die. It's all going to happen eventually so you need to have your numbers on an accrual basis because when you sell your physical products e-commerce business you're going to get paid a multiple of your seller's discretionary earnings plus the landed cost of good sellable inventory on hand at the time of closing. Landed. If you're not tracking that landed figure and you're paying an extra 50 cents per unit you could be losing tens of thousands of dollars in inventory value at the sale. The other thing in terms of cash versus accrual and doing it yourself versus hiring somebody like Tyler is that if you're off by a couple of percentage points; let's just say that you're spending a million dollars a year in revenue. It's not a small business, it's a sizable one. And I've talked to these people that do this and have in-house bookkeepers and I'll give you some math on why you shouldn't admit it but if you're off by 2% on a million bucks that's $2,000 right? That's not right; that's $20,000 that you're off by. Your business is probably sizable selling it 4, 4 ½ times that would mean that your numbers; your profit, your discretionary earnings are off by $20,000. The value of your business is $80,000 off if you're a four-time multiple. So you're either overpricing the business by 80,000 because you overestimated or underestimated your cost of goods sold or worse yet you're undervaluing your business because you're off by 2% and your business is worth $80,000 more than you've got it listed for. These things matter. You worked so damn hard on driving more revenue and looking at your bottom line. But if you don't get the details right like this you're just wasting a whole bunch of money. Okay, that's my momentary rant now I'm going to go into another one. The services that you provide Tyler and there are others out there like you that's just like there's other brokers out there besides Quiet Light; it is what it is but I talked to somebody last week, they spent $24,000 a year on an in-house bookkeeper just out of college that does everything the CPA tells her to do. The numbers are all wrong. They're recording deposits; it was on a cash basis, it was completely and utterly incorrect. And this person thought they were doing something like 1.2 million in discretionary earnings, it really was about 800,000. If they fired the bookkeeper; we'll do the quick math for everybody, fire your bookkeeper is my message, $24,000 a year, hire somebody that does the e-commerce bookkeeping like Tyler and Seller Accountant, even if it's let's call it 600 bucks a month and you're doing an all-encompassing service it's only $7,200 a year, right? So 24,000 minus the 7,200, it's $16,800 in annual savings to the bottom line numbers of your business. If your business is worth four times that adds $67,000 to the list price of your business when you eventually sell it. It's simple and logical math and you don't have an HR problem anymore; you don't have that bookkeeper in-house, you've got somebody like Tyler helping you who's a Bulldogs fan by the way. For those watching the video, stand up just a little bit; what's that logo on your shirt say? Tyler: Man I'm a University of Georgia guy. I'm across the street from the campus here in Athens and Double Dog. I have my MBA and accounting degree here. Joe,  I will say this it really is it's not even so much what you could pay per hour because, to be honest with you the client that's doing a million in discretionary earnings is unlikely to be 600 bucks a month for any service even me if we're getting it done right. But the reality is that if you're paying someone your full-time salary; I know this when I had a company with 100 employees. We always had somebody sitting around. If you're going to carry someone you're always having to get them at a rate where you can't use their full capacity or frankly if you're using your full capacity you got to hire somebody else. And so it's inefficient because; and there are some businesses that need to have a full-time controller. I think if you're doing 15 million a year in revenue you probably need to have a high-end controller on your staff. At that point, that's a six-figure job you're looking to hire for. I think the issue that the seller may be that you're describing would come across is not only are they spending the 24,000; even if they paid me the same amount to do it it's actually going to be done correct and when I go to market those books are going to be stated in accrual basis and they're going to have everything the way they want it. And we can scale with them without them having to hire an entire new employee. So I think that really is a big benefit unless you are; this is what I've learned in general. And this is every business I've worked in or own, I want to make sure that I inhouse my core competency; whatever my competitive advantage is I'm going to make sure that I have teammates that allow me to perpetuate that competitive advantage. Anything that isn't my strength I want to find someone that that is their strength; someone that can do it more efficiently and can do it better than I can. I'm not a broker if I need a broker I want to go to someone like Joe that gets the broker business and can do it more efficiently I'm going to pay Joe but I'm going to make a lot of mistakes and lose a lot more money if I try to do it myself. It's really the same with accounting or PPC or anything else. I'm a big believer. That's what my dad always told me. It's just spend your time where you're making your money. I want to get so focused that I can be the best in the world at something and then I want to outsource as much as I can so that I can be better at my core rather than trying to fix my errors all the time and fix my screw-ups and that kind of thing. Joe: I think that's incredibly well said. I don't have a whole lot to add to that. I think it's just brilliant. I think it's a great business methodology and mindset and it's what everybody should be adopting. Tyler, how do the audience members learn more about your services? Tyler: Yeah so thanks again for having me, Joe. So SellerAccountant.com is our website. You can learn more about our services there. Feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to have a discussion with you. And yes it's been a pleasure to being on the show. Joe: And you're going to share that cash flow forecasting spreadsheet. We'll put that in the show notes so everybody can do their own numbers and if it's confusing reach out to Tyler he'd be there to help you. Thanks for the honor man, I appreciate it. Tyler: You got it. Links and Resources: Tyler's Wedsite A2X Accounting Cash flow forecasting spreadsheet

In this episode, Dr. Joe shares his story of how he used visualization as a means to create a really cool trip to the UK and Ireland with his wife. Dr. Joe also explains the reasons behind using daily visualization. See the video right here: https://bit.ly/2wpLSXz Want a personal mentoring session with Dr. Joe? Just call 801-607-2599 and schedule a free 15 minute consult with him!

These days Amazon businesses are getting more complex, and one way to add margin to your business is to extend to other countries. Today we are talking about the importance of understanding foreign exchange when buying and selling overseas. Since your business can potentially save a few thousand dollars, euros, or rupees, it is a good idea to use a broker for fx, where every little bit counts. Today we have an expert on to talk about the benefits of getting the best foreign exchange rates for your growing business and how having that broker can make a big difference. Jared Van Orden is a financial expert with GPS Capital Markets based in Utah. Since 2002, GPS has been the leading corporate foreign exchange brokerage firm dedicated to handling foreign exchange for companies, large and small. Jared's firm helps its clients exchange funds back into their working currency when selling overseas. Additionally, they exchange the currency of the country where clients are doing business and making foreign purchases. GPS Capital Markets deals in any type of transaction that has a foreign currency element to it and helps companies implement best practices. Episode Highlights: Jared explains the impact of WorldFirst Brokerage's US operations closing. The cost difference between using an exchange broker and being directly exchanged via Amazon. How getting the best exchange rates can affect an exit. Savings opportunities when purchasing goods from overseas, particularly China. Opportunities in other countries such as Thailand and India, a broker can offer. How the cost of a product going up or down can affect the exchange rate. Can sellers set up an EU bank account if they're a US company and what are the tax ramifications? The advantages of multi-currency accounts set up in the country where you do business. Understanding VAT and using an experienced accounting firm for taxation. Transcription Mark: Everybody for those of you that have been long time listeners of the Quiet Light podcast you've probably noticed that we have a brand new shiny introduction to the podcast. Let me know what you think. I like it quite a bit and there's a point in that introduction where there's a movie quote. We thought we would just throw this in there really for no reason other than it's somewhat fun. So here's what we're going to do, if you know what movie that quote was from send me an e-mail at mark@quietlightbrokerage or e-mail Joe at joe@quietlightbrokerage. For those of you that think that this podcast is actually Joe's podcast, you can do that. Let us know what movie it is from and we'll give you a shout out on one of the future podcast episodes. So what movie was that from? And Joe I got something just really funny. Just to tell you briefly I was just at Traffic and Conversion out in San Diego and we were talking about the different people at Quiet Light Brokerage and somebody actually told me that they thought that what you did at Quiet Light Brokerage was the podcast. So that's all that you did. Joe: That's all that I did? That's all I do? Mark: That's all you do. Joe: Oh. Well you know I wish it was all I did and my life would be a lot easier and I'd sleep better because the podcasting is the easiest part. All I do is talk and you and the content team, Chris, everybody else they do the rest. Podcast Motor; they make my life easy. So cool I wish … maybe that will come true someday. The other alternative versus mark@quietlight or joe@quietlight … you don't have to play favorites you can just send it to inquiries@quietlight and put movie quote in the subject line. And that way both Mark and I will see it and we can call you out and tell you we love you and that you picked the name of the movie. But listen we should talk about— Mark: Well on that be honest if you use Google like I do with every single one of these tell us that you used Google just to find it. Joe: Well when you were showing me this sample and you gave a movie quote I did, in fact, Google it. So don't cheat like I did folks. I knew what it was. I was pretty sure I knew what it was. And it was maybe people we can … I know I won't want to confuse them with the intro that is not pride to this. Anyway, we have a new guest; a person that specializes in foreign exchange. And it's something that you and I don't have a whole lot of expertise or experience in. His name is Jared Van Orden. He's from GPS FX. I met him at the Prosper Show last year and we talked a little bit about what they do. And finally because of some things that have happened with a company called World First we decided to get him on the podcast and talk about saving some money for the folks that do sell overseas and also buy from overseas manufacturers. Mark: Yeah. I'm sorry I thought you were going to continue talking. I didn't know you were done. I usually when you talk I just kind of tune you out so I— Joe: I know. I know. Mark: Well look the Amazon businesses are getting more complex and one of the best ways to expand and grow your business … any e-commerce business but Amazon specifically is to go into different countries. And when you do that there's going to be added complexity but also added areas for margin. And one of the very simple ways … and I talked to Jared before at Prosper Show is just that right? Looking at the foreign exchange this is an area where you can definitely add margin to your business. And it's an area that frankly I don't know much about so I'm glad that we have somebody who does know a lot about this to come on and talk about it. Joe: Yeah and let me just say real quick before we go to the podcast Mark is mentioning margin and it's important if you're going to save a thousand dollars a month on foreign exchange by doing it right. Or another thousand a month by using a foreign exchange company when you're placing orders overseas. That's $2,000 a month; $24,000 a year. That could result in an additional 75 … a hundred thousand dollars onto the value of your business so every little bit counts. Please listen to the entire podcast because Jared does a really good job of explaining the entire process. Mark: Awesome let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks Joe here at Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Jared Van Orden with me on the phone. Hey Jared, how are you? Jared: I'm doing great Joe. Joe: Awesome. Well as I said in our little chat before, today I've got a guest on talking about a subject that I know very little about which is great because I'm going to ask a lot of dumb questions. But before we go into those dumb questions that I'm going to ask and questions that I think will help the buyers of internet based businesses selling physical products and selling overseas; sellers of those save some money in the future why don't you give a little bit of background on yourself so folks understand who you are and what your company is and what you do. Jared: Sure. Thanks, Joe. So I'm with GPS Capital Markets. We're a foreign currency exchange brokerage that headquartered out at the United States; Utah actually to be exact. And we do all things foreign currency exchange. So we help companies specifically if they have revenues that are being collected in a currency outside of their functional currency, outside of the currency they use on a day to day basis. A US seller that's selling in to the UK; we help them to exchange those funds back into US dollars. Or a company that's paying for products in a foreign currency; we help to exchange funds from US dollars into those foreign currencies. And you know that it can be on a revenue cost basis. We help companies to acquire other entities overseas or to sell other entities; any type of transaction that has a foreign currency element to it. We really go out and try and help those companies number one to find the best practice solution to what they're doing. Sometimes that may mean not doing business with us but to help them find really what's going to fit best for their unique situation in dealing with foreign currencies. And then help them to implement that strategy if at all possible. It could be anything from just converting funds to locking the exchange rates for them. Joe: Excellent. I've dealt with this a few times over the years when we've got people that are not US citizens. They're … I just did one in Germany last year and the exchange rate was a major factor in terms of the timing of when we're going to close a transaction for him because it was being sold … purchased in US dollars. And I've had a lot of Canadian folks as well and folks from different parts of the world. But the big savings here and the way that people ultimately and this is what we look at can boost their bottom line discretionary earnings. There's many, many different ways to do it but the key here is a one or two or three percent savings in that foreign exchange. We're on this podcast because your team had sent me an e-mail. We met at the Prosper Show last year. I think you'll be there this year. We will as well. But you had sent me an email in regards to World First which is a very well-known foreign exchange firm that they're closing their doors. Can you touch on that a little bit for those folks that are currently using World First and may not know about this and what's … how it's going to impact their bottom line? Jared: Sure World First is actually a very good exchange brokerage. It has been around for quite a while and they had been helping a lot of Amazon sellers in the seller space to convert their funds from the foreign marketplaces back into US dollars. Basically, this is another option rather than using Amazon … to let Amazon convert those revenues for you into US dollars. And what happened is that World First is in an acquisition type situation where a foreign buyer out of China was looking to acquire the company. But because of some of the blocking that the US has done for Chinese financial companies purchasing US corporations that transaction didn't look like it was going to go through with World First US operations. And so World First sent out an email here back in January to all its clients saying that their US operations are going to be closing immediately. And that leaves a lot of our Amazon sellers in a situation where they're no longer going to be able to use that service with anywhere less than about a 30 day notice that after February 20th which is today you cannot use World First services if you are a US Canadian corporation. So those services out in US and Canada are no longer available to you. Now that doesn't mean that World First just quit doing business if you're a UK seller that's doing a business in the EU that services still can keep working for you. It's really only affecting the US companies that are based out in the United States and Canada. Joe: Okay so if we've got a US company or a Canadian company doing a $100,000 a year in revenue in the EU and they were using World First and they just default back to using Amazon what's the cost difference in terms of the exchange rate, what they're going to be left with? Jared: It's going to be pretty substantial. I mean if you're using Amazon, every two weeks Amazon sends your revenues back to you and if you have not entered an EU or UK based bank account those funds get exchanged by Amazon and sent to you every two weeks. And by default, the exchange rate that they're giving you is not what the market exchange rate is. It's actually the Amazon exchange rate they provide to you and it's over 3% off market. So if you're doing $100,000 in sales over there you can expect to only get $97,000 back or a little bit less than that because of the exchange rates that come that with your Amazon's platform. Joe: And if that same seller was using say you guys or World First what kind of rate would they have been getting? Jared: It would have been at least 3% better than what they were currently receiving at the time if they're through Amazon. Joe: I'm confused. Do the math for me. Jared: Amazon is around 3.75%. It's kind of where they come in at on their mark up on the exchange rate. Joe: Okay. Jared: Whereas if it's coming through GPS you're going to see significant or any other broker that is helping the Amazon sellers you're going to see significant reduction that oftentimes two to three or more percent back to you for those conversions. Joe: So you go from you're at 3.75% which is the default Amazon number … and these are just numbers that float and change I would assume. Are we looking at a full percentage point, two percentage points … are you talking 2% versus 3.75%? Jared: I would say for most of the brokers including GPS you're looking at two to three percent back in your pocket on the exchange. Joe: Yeah that seems really high just given that … I mean two to three percent. So you go from 100,000 if it's 3.75 with Amazon that's $3,750 you're going to save 3% by using GPS or if they were with World First is that only costing them 750? Jared: Yeah. Joe: Really? That's a huge difference. Jared: It's a huge difference. And that seems really high but in all reality that's actually pretty on par with a lot of other methods that are employed right now. If you're in e-teller and you have your own website. So you're selling on Amazon but you're also selling on your own website or in the UK your credit card processor is collecting those funds and oftentimes they're converting the foreign revenues into US dollars and placing them into your account. You're often losing 2.25% on that conversion and often a 1% to 1.25% cross border fee that's charged to you. And so that's 3.25 to 3.5% that you often lose on that conversion even if it's coming through a credit card processor that may be integrated to your Shopify account or some other online platform. So it seems really high but you'd be surprised that currency conversion buffer is in there for most conversions. Joe: Okay so a simple math again though if someone's doing $100,000 in foreign currency, a foreign land they're going to save 3% by using … if they were using World First or using a firm like yours. That's $3,000 for every 100,000. So if they're doing a million it's an awful lot larger. Just to break it down further for those that are listening if you've got a business and you're planning to exit in the next 12 to 24 months and you're paying these high numbers that Jared's talking about not only is it hurting your bottom line, taking money out of your pocket but you're also devaluating your business. If your business is worth a three time multiple of discretionary earnings, if you're losing 3,000 in currency exchange you're taking $9,000 off the value of your business. If you're doing a million overseas and that's going to be $90,000 off the value of your business in terms of these additional expenses. I had Mike Jackness on the podcast and hopefully, you guys listened to it a couple of weeks ago where we talked about his exit and one of his businesses. And he and Dave on eCom Crew always talk about that revenue is sanity… revenue is ego … I'm getting this wrong I know but profits are sanity. Too many folks focus just on the top line and don't focus on that bottom line profit; renegotiating cost of goods sold, looking at foreign exchange rates and making every dollar count will help you build a more valuable business. And it actually instills confidence in your buyers as well because they see that you're running a real business and you're doing what you can to make it as profitable as possible. All right so I ranted there for a moment Jared, sorry about that. You mentioned …at one point you said you can … if people are buying products in a foreign land are we talking about currency savings, cost savings if someone is buying product from China because a lot of folks have got e-commerce businesses are importing from China and spending tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands a year. Is there an exchange rate opportunity … savings opportunity there when they're buying from a foreign manufacturer or did I misunderstand that? Jared: There is and you know there are two parts to that answer so maybe I'll dig in a little bit. China is unique. A lot of these products are coming out of China and a lot of these companies in China they want US dollars when they're selling to you. That has a lot to do with in the past you know China has controlled the exchange rate between the US dollar and the Chinese or in the CNY CNH [inaudible 00:15:59.3] names for the currency; Yuan. When you are sending money over there in the past they have often wanted to receive US dollars. And in a time period where the Chinese currency is weakening, that's just an added bonus to these Chinese suppliers when they receive US dollars and getting it converted to their currency. They receive more for it. So in China most of the time you'll see that it's really hard to get any pricing outside of the US dollar and if you're being priced in US dollars because the supplier knows that they're not going to get your payment for 30, 60, 90 days they don't know what the exchange rate is going to be in 90 days. And so the Chinese suppliers will actually increase the price of your product to add a little bit of a buffer in there just because if the exchange rate fluctuates they don't want to be out one or two percent or more because the rates have changed between then and when they actually receive the funds. Now China aside looking at all other countries where companies may be purchasing your product, if you're having to pay a euro invoice to buy your product you probably hop on a banking platform to purchase those euro and you'll notice that the exchange rate that you receive on that transfer is not what you can see online on Google or any of these other sites that are recording grain rate. And that's because the rates that you're seeing online through Google and these other locations like Bloomberg or Reuters those rates are averaged rates of transactions of 5 million dollars or more. Some of these are 10 million dollars or more and those are referred to as market trades. And so if you're trading blocks of 5 million or 10 million at a time into these other currencies those are the exchange rates that banks are trading with each other at. Now we little guys who are not purchasing blocks of currency that big, when we go and buy foreign currency and go to send it to that supplier the reason we don't get that rate the banks are getting is because there is risk associated with us buying those funds. And so the banks mark up the exchange rate and it really have a lot to do with volume. Somebody who's buying a million dollars at a time, a million dollars' worth of euro at a time is going to get much more favorable exchange rate than somebody who's buying a thousand dollars' worth of euro at a time. Joe: What about some of the other countries that are more likely to be countries that folks would manufacture in like India, Thailand, maybe even Mexico? I've seen a few of those. Is there a … for folks that are buying in those countries, manufacturing in those countries, is there a currency exchange savings opportunity for them and if so how do they go about doing it? Jared: There is on those and again if you're just using a typical bank to do those transactions that may not be the best opportunity for you. Reaching out to a broker or one of these other companies, World First, GPS, and looking into what type of exchange rate that they give you on sending those wires, that could be really substantial savings. And there's a bank here locally near me that charges $50 per outgoing wire transfer and that is not the cost of sending a wire. That's part of the cost. So it might cost you anywhere from $20 to $50 to send an international wire to pay a vendor but then there's also that foreign currency element. Maybe your bank just doesn't have a great relationship when sending money to Korea and so the exchange rate they provide to you might be 3½ % off of market plus the $50 wire fee or $20 wire fee to send the funds to that country. And so the savings can be quite significant but it's going to be on a bank by bank, provider by provider basis and also looking at what currency that you're purchasing. Joe: So how does it work? If I'm manufacturing in India and I'm placing an order for $40,000 worth of goods, would I work with a GPS to lock in that exchange rate and you wire the funds over in whatever the Indian currency is? What is the Indian currency? I want to put you in the spot. Jared: Indian Rupees. Joe: Okay. Jared: So if you're sending … and you picked a good one, India has some very interesting tax laws over there and so if you're buying from an Indian provider and they're pricing you in US dollars you'll often see an INR price … Indian Rupee price printed on the invoice. And if you take that Indian Rupee amount and you just look on Google to see what the exchange rate is and you convert it back into US dollars well now you've got a US dollar cost on the invoice and then the US dollar cost that you back in to from the rupees. If you compare those two, you'll often see a very significant difference. I've seen up to 5% built in to the pricing for you to pay them in US dollars and that has to do with the way the funds get converted in the country and whether they receive a certain type of tax credit. But there are opportunities where if you pay them an INR … Indian Rupees you might get four to 5% right off the top in savings just simply because they're not dealing with the riskiness of achieving a currency anymore. Joe: So if I was manufacturing and buying $40,000 worth of goods from India for instance and I work through GPS I could save that 5% because you'd be able to wire over and do it in that. Is that $2,000? Am I doing the math right? Jared: There is very much that chance. And not just GPS I mean almost any institution in the United States that is doing it for you rather than sending over dollars. I mean in this case you're just sending dollars over there and it's being exchanged in country. Joe: Right. Jared: By simply paying the invoice in Indian rupees you might be saving 4% right across; four to 5%. Joe: Wow. So … and this can be done in multiple countries. China … maybe the opportunity is not as big in China because they want US dollars. Is that right? Jared: Exactly right. Joe: Okay. Jared: They typically want US dollars but some that's changing. China would like to become more of a global player and their currency is becoming one of the reserve currencies in the World Bank. You're going to see that change over the next few years. And there's real opportunity there but there's also a risk that comes in to it as well. If you decide to start purchasing Indian rupees to pay that supplier there is a chance that the Indian currency would strengthen 5% over the next year. Joe: Can you lock it in in terms of … because when people are manufacturing products they're putting 30% down and the other 70% when it's inspected and going on the boat. And that usually all happens within a 12 week period. Jared: I know. You're exactly right. And so the timing may not be really wide on those payments and so maybe the market isn't real significant but if you start paying a foreign supplier in their local currency and that may give you back some … a little bit of a discount on purchasing your product, but you also have to then take into consideration that you're now at risk that the Indian currency could weaken 10% in your favor over the next 12 months so going in 12 week increments but a year from now if the currency has weakened 10% then it's 10% in your favor but if the currency has strengthened over the next year, a year from now it's now 10% against you. And so you may have to make decisions on how to lock exchange rate ahead of time on those purchases you're going to make. Or you may have to go back to the negotiating table in order to get your pricing down a little bit with the supplier. Joe: And just to include it, the owners of these businesses their eyes are probably on the back of their heads right now because they've got so many things that they're supposed to be experts on but they don't have to be here. They can hire a firm like yours to do these things for them right? Jared: Absolutely. Joe: Okay. Jared: I would always look at what your costs are doing. Sometimes these companies and this … I'm glad you've mentioned that because there's a big misnomer here where a lot of companies think I'm buying my product in US dollars so it doesn't matter where the exchange rate go. That's not actually true because if I'm in China and I'm receiving your US dollars and it's a hundred thousand dollars today, if the Chinese Currency strengthens 10% at the end of next year I'm only getting $90,000 worth of [inaudible 00:24:11.1] when I receive it. And so I have production costs in country and if I'm no longer able to be profitable I have to raise your price. And so some of your clients here they may see that they've been buying the same SKU for the last 10 years and then we see that the price of that SKU has gone up and down over the years even though they're only buying it in US dollars. And that has a lot to do with the exchange rate. If the costs go up and down to the supplier they have to adjust the pricing even if it's in US dollars. Joe: Okay. You had mentioned something earlier about I think I heard you say EU bank account if you don't have one the funds are going back to your US account and charged in exchange rate. For those that are selling in the EU let's say via Amazon are you … or should they have an EU bank account and can you do that if it's a US institution or US corporation? Jared: Okay so that's a really good question. Let's look at that in a couple of parts. So one is if I'm selling into Europe, I'm selling into the EU, let's use Germany as example. If I'm selling my products into Germany on Amazon if I don't log on to my seller central account over there and punch in a Euro bank account Amazon automatically converts the funds to dollars every two weeks. So you have an option if you could go over and get an account in the EU set up. So you go to Germany and set up an account in country. You could have those funds go to that Euro account and pool into that account and if that account has online access you could manage it from here in the United States and send the funds back to you however often you want. Joe: Just to be clear you're saying … you mean a bank account not a Seller? Jared: A bank account, yes. Joe: Okay. Jared: So you can open an in-country bank account. Joe: Can you set up an in-country bank account in all of the EU countries if you're a US corporation or LLC? Jared: You're likely going to have to go over and register in country. Joe: Okay. Jared: So there is going to be some tax Nexus situations that are created by that. So another option you have is you can go to your bank here in the United States. You can go to a GPS and you can say I would like to get an account in-country over in EU. And so in the case of GPS, we would open an EU account for you in euros and this is referred to as a multi-currency account. And this multi-currency account is an account that is assigned to you. You're likely not going to have to register any country that you use this account. And then you can now take your euros and login to your Seller Central account and plug in that euro account into Seller Central and now those euros are going to pool into your own multi-currency account. One of the big advantages of that account is if you have cost in Europe so you have to pay VAT back. You can simply take those funds and pay those taxes out of your own account … this account, this multi-currency account. Or you can take all the funds and convert it back to US dollars. Joe: I got you. You know I … we had Avask Accounting on the podcast in 2018 talking about that. And I do know that they actually help people set up EU bank accounts as well as part of it. And folks can find them at AvaskAccounting.co.uk. And then use a company like Jared's for the foreign exchange as well. Just quick math if based upon what we've talked about is somebody doing $100,000 in revenue they're going to save a couple of percentage points; $2,000 by making sure they're using good foreign exchange. And then if they're not; if they're manufacturing overseas, if they can save another 5% on that $40,000 inventory purchase that's in India for instance that's another $4,000. Folks that $6,000in savings, money in your pocket and if you're selling your business for a three time multiple that's $18,000 added on to the value of your business. And you can adjust that number in any way that you want. But these are the things that matter when you are growing your business with an eventual exit in mind or if you're buying an interest … buying a business and you want to increase the discretionary earnings and build equity right away. These are some of the things you can look at. Jared, I appreciate your time here. It's a complicated subject. How do they find you? What is your web address and how can they reach out to you either via e-mail or finding your website? Jared: Okay so our web address is www.gpsfx.com and to get in touch with us it's just usually a phone call at 801-984-1080 and then I can send you my e-mail but I'll state it here as well. My email is jvanorden@gpsfx.com. Joe: Awesome. That's great. Jared: And if people just have questions I'm happy even just to answer questions that point you in the right direction. If someone has listened to this and they're like I think I have this but I just need some help on it I'm happy just to point you in the right direction as well. Joe: I appreciate that. That's why we have you on because you're here to help first and build value so I appreciate that. Folks I would encourage you to reach out to Jared and his team over there and see if you're overspending and if you've got some savings there. Jared, I appreciate your time. I look forward to seeing you at the Prosper Show. Jared: Thanks, Joe. You too. Links and Resources: GPS Capital Markets Contact Jared

One of the mistakes people often make when starting their own e-commerce business is they try to make the business an extension of themselves. They don't build out enough within that extension and therefore don't build a real business. A real business that is going to be attractive to buyers. Some also make attempts to reject Amazon, feeling they can achieve success with Shopify, Walmart, and other E-commerce channels. Today we are talking with a true Amazon veteran and success story, getting to the truth behind building real e-commerce success, working to build a real and viable business, and why it pays to go to China. Kevin King is an e-commerce entrepreneur's advisement expert. He teaches to and works with seven to eight-figure companies and speaks at e-conferences all over the world – attending nearly twenty-six events in at least 10 countries in 2018 alone! He runs his own e-commerce site selling his Amazon products, and has developed and guided hundreds of products from inception to market. He's been in the Amazon Private Label space since 2015. He's here talking about the Amazon opportunity bubble and how he doesn't see it popping anytime soon. Episode Highlights: The skyrocket of the Amazon business model and how that model has changed. Kevin shares his tips for doing business right from the start and increasing chances for success. The different ways to approach the Amazon model. Kevin gives us a definition of Amazon Private Label. The number one crucial skill you need to succeed on Amazon. What you really need financially to start a real business. How to find out where the demand is on Amazon. Why being on top of your inventory is vital to your success and how often you should turn your inventory each year. What it really means to build a brand and if brands mean anything to potential buyers. Why Amazon is a great place to launch a product but not to build a brand. Why product choice is the backbone to business success. What to look at when choosing a product to sell. Selling cheap easy turnover items versus high ticket items. The most important thing to do to improve traffic on Amazon. Unless it garners at least 20% of your revenue, multichannel sales don't increase your chances of finding a buyer. The international factor and branching out to other marketplaces. Kevin's golden rules for moving a product. How many products are the right amount to have in your portfolio? Where the money is really made in the Amazon space and the importance of how and where to source products. Transcription: Mark: Okay Joe I want to start this off with a question for you. Back when you owned Puristat how long did it take before you realized this is going to be able to grow into something and how long did it take before you turn it into kind of like a real business that could be scaled? Joe: That's a great question. I wish I had a really good prepared answer for it. Mark: I got you completely unguarded with that. Joe: Yeah. I'm one of those guys that built a business without knowing I could actually sell it. And as you and a lot of folks that know my history I started out on doing radio and direct response and did a TV infomercial and then eventually took it 100% online. But early on in my entrepreneurial career, I did have a sit down with a good friend … a family friend that slapped me upside the head in terms of accounting and I did have my ducks in a row in that sense. And I always built what was a real business so that if I got hit by a bus one of my head people could take over, my wife could take over things of that nature. But it never actually occurred to me until I was emotionally tired that I could sell the business. And then I reached out to a guy named Mark Daoust back in … gosh, 2010 right? Mark: Way too long ago. I think one of the things … one of the problems I see and I've seen over the past 11 years with entrepreneurs is we make the business an extension of ourselves; an extension of our personality. And because of that sometimes we don't really build the business in a way that can be sold and we don't have intentionality of building something outside of ourselves. And I know you talked to Kevin King who had a lot of suggestions and tips as to how somebody should be building their business for that expansion and again for lack of a better term a real business. Joe: Kevin used the term real business probably 10 times in the first five minutes and he is such an honest straightforward tell it like it is kind of guy that he says you got to build a real business. Grow up build a real business. Don't be a … build a real business. And he just says it in a way that you just have to go okay he's right, I need to stop messing around, grow up, and build a real business that is going to be really attractive to buyers when I'm ready to sell. Kevin is one of the few guys that is out there teaching, helping, coaching entrepreneurs build ecommerce businesses with a focus on an eventual exit. He's got a four year plan in terms of … you know step 1, 2, 3, 4 in terms of year 1, 2, 3, 4 with an exit in mind not that you're going to exit but that you're in a position to exit in 48 months. Part of that is giving it enough time to mature and grow and gain value. And he's a believer as many folks in his position are that a majority of the revenue that an entrepreneur gets to put in their bank account comes upon an exit and that's a simple matter of math. We hear Scott Deetz talk about that a lot and he's an advocate of that as well. But I tell you there are … the gurus are a dime a dozen and Kevin has been around a long time. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, he's a guest podcast on lots of podcasts, AM PM Podcast co-host, and helps out a lot with Helium10. And now he is so sought after. He's being asked to go and present and speak around the country … around the world and he's being paid to do it. You and I have to … we have to say can we sponsor and by the way can we speak and we pay them to let us up on stage these people are actually paying Kevin to get up there and talk because the wisdom that he shares is so valuable. Mark: That's fantastic. I want to get to this, hear what he has to say. I was at a conference a few months ago and there's a speaker who said … and I'm going to keep this PG even though he wasn't PG but he said if you want to have a real business you have to do real business stuff. And it's one of those truisms that is just kind of basic but good to hear once in a while. So I'm interested to hear what Kevin has to say about it and for those listening, I think it would be a good idea to listen to some of the specifics that he gives here and just measure up against what you're doing right now. Are you doing these things? Have you been doing real business stuff within your business to actually build something that's real and external? Joe: Perfect let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley with the Quiet Light Podcast and I have an amazing guest today. His name is Kevin King. Kevin, how are you today? Kevin: I'm doing good Joe. How are you doing? Joe: I'm good man. You're kind of a legend in this industry now. You're traveling all over the world speaking at events, getting paid to speak at events, helping 6, 7, 8 figure entrepreneurs build their Amazon businesses. That's kind of the intro, why don't you tell us who you are and what you're all about so the people will understand it directly from you? Kevin: Sure no problem. Yeah, I've been doing ecommerce since the 1990. So I go back about 20, 25 years or so since the days before there was even a Google. I've been selling ecommerce to my own websites. I started selling on Amazon on around the year 2000 or so and then I've been doing the FBA model which most people are familiar with now since 2015. I originally started out doing wholesaling, some arbitrage, and some other stuff on Amazon and still do that through another business. And then I'm also involved in a couple of different training things. So I teach advanced level sellers, 6, 7, 8 figure sellers in the Illuminati Mastermind which I'm mostly training. Like a 3 hour training [inaudible 00:05:54.2] these tactics and techniques for sellers and then we do a live event once a year. It's a pretty high level live event and then also I have a course called the Freedom Ticket which trains new people on how to sell on Amazon as well as how to have a 7 figure Amazon Business that I do myself and then I'm partners with a couple of other people and a couple of other Amazon businesses. And then I … like you said I speak at a lot of events all over the world for Amazon sellers and ecommerce. Joe: And why don't you tell us how many you went to so far this year? This is being recorded in late 2018. Kevin: Yeah in 2018 I'm at 26 events so far this year. Joe: And say how many different countries. Kevin: Oh man I haven't added that up. The number of countries would probably be at least 10. Joe: At least 10. Kevin: So I would actually … it's a … China, Hong Kong, let's see … several United States including Hawaii and it's not another country but Hawaii and then several and Germany, so Germany, London, Greece, Romania, Ukraine, man all over … all over the place. Joe: That's incredible. And you're attending and speaking at these as well right? Kevin: That's correct yeah. Some of them I'm just an attendee but over half of them, I'm actually speaking at. Joe: All right well let's help the people that are listening, those that have Amazon businesses and those that don't, those that want to get started. A lot of folks like you and me started off with our own websites and Google AdWords and content development and eventually morphed over to Amazon. I didn't, I sold my business before you were selling in Amazon but before I realized that Amazon was a tool I could sell on. I sold in 2010. I look back and think man I wish I knew a Kevin King back then. Kevin: Yeah the Amazon space is one of those that … it had a hot wave around 2012 or so. The guys over at Amazing.com kind of set this off where they turned it into a business model and started instead of getting rich in real estate let's get rich in selling on Amazon. And so they started doing courses and it took off and since then there's probably about 4 or 500 other people that came out with different courses. And to be frank, most of them suck. The guys at Amazing do a pretty good job and there's three or four others. I'd like to think that mine is one of the better ones but most of them are people that either isn't selling on Amazon or tried it and failed or they're just not very good. So you have to be very very careful out there. It's become a big industry that is … a lot of people realize they can make more money selling the show than they can selling the gold or whatever or that saying is you know. It's teaching people how to do it rather than doing it. But the opportunity … so as a result of that a lot of people say hey is this selling on Amazon saturated? Is it too late? Did I miss the boat? I say absolutely not. I think it's better than ever right now. The difference is it's no longer an easy game where when 2, 3, 4 years ago it's pretty easy to just go to Alibaba.com find a product slap your name and logo on it and sell it on Amazon and those days are pretty much gone. It's a real business now. So if you approach this as a real business and not a get rich quick scheme and not listen to a lot of these course guys that are saying you can quit your job tomorrow and sit on the beach drink margaritas and just check the app and watch the sales come in. But treat it like a real business and keep your job. Don't quit your job maybe for a year as long as you got money … unless you have a lot of money in the bank saved up that you can live on. But if you treat this like a real business that you can reinvest it there's no better business out there that has a better return right now. And Joe you know this, you guys broker a bunch of businesses so you see these numbers and you see the guys that do it wrong and the guys that do it right. And like I always say if you take $5,000 and you put that into the best mutual fund on Wall Street in about 3 years you'll have about 7500 bucks or so roughly on average. If you put $5,000 on an Amazon business and do it right that $5,000 in 3 years can pretty easily turn into about $52,000. So the ROI is tremendous but you got to do it right, you got to treat it like a business. And I always tell people if you're going to start in this business the thing that you need to do is … I say it's like a 4 year plan. Year one you're basically learning and you're earning. Year two … whether that's you taking a course from someone that you paid, you're watching some YouTube videos or whatever you may be doing, you have to be careful though if you're watching YouTube videos because some of that stuff is out of date or incorrect. So you're learning and you're earning. In the 2nd year, you're optimizing. So maybe you're adding additional products and additional variations. The 3rd year you're preparing to sell. You're getting all your ducks in a row. You're getting all your financials correct. Hopefully, you've been doing this all along but you're really optimizing your financials and in the 4th year you sell. The best opportunity in this business is not running the business; it's in selling the business. Because when you sell an Amazon business typically that's where you're going to take in over half of your profits. Sometimes as much as 70 or 80% of what you're going to walk away with from running the business. People would say why the heck would you sell a business if this is such a great opportunity Kevin why the heck would you even sell it? And I say well it's leverage. I mean there's no better … that's how you get ahead. You know in real estate that's how you get ahead and wherever it is leveraged. Even if you're making $200,000 a year off this business if you can walk away in one year with a million bucks let's say in your pocket, you can just turn around, pay off some bills, take a nice vacation, buy the wife a new car, whatever you want to do and then start over again. And I know a lot of people that are on their 3rd Amazon based business right now. I know a guy that sold his first one in a year for half a million. He sold his 2nd one for 7.5 million. Now it's the third one. I know another couple, a really nice husband and wife team that just recently sold one for 4 million, got a multiple of almost 4.2 and their next goal is 2021 to sell it for 10 … the next one for 10 million. So it's a great way to do that. Joe: [inaudible 00:11:38.6] them the skill set. You know the folks that I talk to they build these and then we sell them for them. Once they've got that skill set they can go back to the well. They can go back to the Amazon well and build another brand because they understand it. But let's throw some chips out there. You said you could turn 5,000 into 50 in 4 years. We've seen 5,000 turned into several million in 4 years. How much would you recommend to the newbies that are out there and what I want to do here is give some tips from you the expert. I get so much misinformation out there. I want you to talk about a few tips that newer folks should do so that it increases their success level. And then to those folks that are out there doing it now some of the things that you may be able to call from your travels and your experience that are new that are completely different than they were maybe even just 12 months ago. But how much money do you think somebody at a minimum should start off with and should they be focused on branding, wholesaling, arbitrage … what is your opinion on what they should do to get started and increase their chances of success so that they can have that big exit down the road? Kevin: Well I can say this 11 different ways to skin the Amazon cat. You can make money off affiliate market by doing wholesale, by doing retail, arbitrage, online arbitrage and there are several other ways. The best way, in my opinion, is private label. It has the most opportunity and the best margin. So if you're looking to maximize your return you should really look at the private label side. Joe: Let's define that if you would please? Kevin: Sure. Joe: Just for the new ones starting off. Kevin: The private label is where you're actually basically creating a brand … attempting to create a brand or you're actually taking products that already exist, maybe modifying them slightly and putting your name on it. It's kind of like if you go to the supermarket and you look at that ketchup, there's Heinz ketchup which everybody knows that do all the advertising and right next to it is the local store brand, Safeway, Kroger, whatever it may be brand of ketchup which often comes off the same factory. And it's often the exact same materials they just has a different name on it usually at a slightly lower price. Joe: Right. Kevin: So that's private label. So the idea behind the private label is to go onto Amazon use a lot of these tools, these 3rd party software tools, find the opportunities, and that could be either based on keywords or it could be based on complaints and customer reviews and you can fix the problem and you can come in and compete. The Amazon business itself is the number one most crucial skill you need to have is mass. This business is all about numbers and so if you're not a numbers person you need someone on your team that is a numbers person. It's not something where you get emotional and hey I built a better mousetrap or I've made a new invention. I mean there are opportunities there if you have a new invention or you have a new idea but there has to be the demand. And the beauty about Amazon and selling on Amazon is it's a huge laboratory. I mean with 550 million or so products on there most of them with a review someone with thousands of reviews. It's a great laboratory. I mean companies 10, 15 years ago used to have to do focused group marketing and all kinds of expensive research just to get this kind of feedback and it's publicly freely available right now to anybody that wants it. So you can go in there and if you know how to mine this data you can find major opportunities. And so you want to look … it's all about math. So back on how much should you start with you know that depends. I recommend you have at least 5 to $10,000. I mean you hear stories of people start with 100 bucks or 500 bucks but usually they may have started with 100 bucks but what they don't tell you is that a week later they borrowed 50,000 from their rich uncle. They have these rags to riches story where they get terms from their supplier, there's something else to it. You can't start with it, I mean you could start arbitrage with a 100 bucks if you're going to grow a real business you need money. You can start a business with a thousand or a hundred … hundred to a thousand but it's going to be a really slow build. So the more you have the faster you can go. So what I always say is if you going to start this business how much do you need? You need 2 ½ times your initial inventory investment. So if your first round of products is going to cost you let's say $4,000 to have made. So you're buying 1,000 units of something. That means you can basically spend about $4 per unit landed cost. Landed cost means the cost to manufacture the item whether that's in the United States or in China plus the cost to ship it and if you're importing it all the taxes and shipping cost that's basically landed in the Amazon warehouse. So you need 2 ½ times that. That means you need about $10,000 to start the business. If you don't have $10,000 you need to find a different type of product to sell. If you only have 5,000 good, do the math and you have to find some things you can buy for about $2,000; your initial inventory. Joe: So if you're buying 1000 pieces at 4,000 bucks what's the other 6,000 for? Kevin: The other 6,000 is because in this business it's a very cash intensive business. So if you're successful you're most likely going to have to be buying your 2nd round of inventory before you sold your 1st and probably before you've even paid for your 1st in full. So you're going to need … the worst thing you can do on Amazon is to run out of stocks. If you run out of stocks on Amazon for more than a few days you're basically starting over. That's the death. Now 90% of people that start selling on Amazon fail or they take a course either they don't launch or they fail because they don't do the math right. They don't plan it properly. They don't pick products that are within their budget that they can maintain, that they can sustain. And in the other … you know in this case of the 4,000 so you might need another 4,000 to place your 2nd order and then the other 2,000 is for advertising cost. You might need some software, some other miscellaneous things. That's the bare minimum. In my opinion, it's better to have a better cushion than that but that would be the bare minimum. And then it's all about math. It's all about looking at keyword demand. It's not trying to invent something new, that's kick starter or that's … you know there are other business models for if you have something that's brand new that you want to do. But the best opportunity is to look at the demand on Amazon. Use these keyword tools. See what people are searching for, what they're buying, what they're complaining about, and go in and either make a slightly different product of that or fix the problem that people are complaining about and then come out with something. And so that that's why I say it's all math. It's all about the financial side which most people are not good at and the forecasting and it's all about the keyword and the demand side. And there are some great tools out there … 3rd party tools that have come a long way in the last 3 years that can really help you with it. But most people that even are paying for these tools … you know they're paying 100 bucks for a tool like Helium 10 for example that's one of the better tools out there. A lot of people don't even know how to use the tools. It's kind of like they have a nice race car with all these gizmos and buttons and all these kinds of things that they can do to really race down the track at 200 miles per hour but they're just putting along at 40 miles an hour. So master these tools and learn these tools and you can do really well. Joe: Okay and that's the 1st year really the mastery of those types of tools and things of that nature. Kevin: Correct. Joe: Got you and we say a lot of the same things. I put myself on mute because I'm struggling because we're doing … one of the things I'm always saying is that and I'm actually doing a presentation next week and its, if you want to increase the value of your business in the year before you sell, don't run out of inventory. You know that it's going to kill maybe certain things in terms of momentum on Amazon. I know that when you run out of inventory it reduces your revenue and your profit and that times your multiple is going to be the loss on your business value. I just said a lot. It probably doesn't make sense to most but just don't run out of inventory. Do what you can; beg, borrow, steal, hillock, line of credit, credit cards, whatever it takes if you've got a good solid business. As far as the brand sell or the private label do you recommend and do you prefer seeing people picking a category, let's say they're going to … okay, I'm going to invent a new … I'm not going to invent, I'm going to build a better mousetrap and it's a swimming pool cover and then all of the additional products evolve around swimming pools or do you think you find that great product there and then you do this search for the next great product and it may not be related at all? Kevin: I think there are two different ways to do that. I mean one is if building a brand is difficult, building a brand it's not just sticking your name and your label on something. A lot of people think that's a brand. They think that if I create a logo and stick my name on my pool cover I, therefore, have a brand and I have a bunch of pool and that's not true. Brand is an identity. It's something that people relate to. It's like … you know think of Apple, people are lining up to get the new iPhone. It's a certain cool you know Apple came out with that thing differently you know that it's almost like a … it's hard to build a brand and I don't think Amazon is the place to build a brand in my opinion. I think Amazon is a great launching … if building a brand is your strategy that's awesome and Amazon can be a great place to launch because the marketplace is already there. The view about Amazon is they already have a huge audience and just all these cool tools that you can use to figure out how to reach them. If you go out and you build your own Shopify site or your own ecommerce store you've got to figure out how they bring the traffic there. You've got to start doing Facebook ads, email list, PR, whatever it may be to bring the traffic there versus on Amazon you don't have to do that it's already coming. You'll only use outside traffic … if you have to use outside traffic to drive sales on Amazon you're doing something wrong. In my opinion, the only time you should use outside traffic to drive sales on Amazon is when you're doing a launch. If you're launching a new product and you need it to kind of influence the algorithm, that makes perfect sense and you should do that. But if you're heavily weighted on driving outside traffic from Facebook and you're sending it to Amazon just to make sales on Amazon then you shouldn't be doing it. You should have sent that to your own store because when you send someone from Facebook to Amazon they're not … they don't become your customer. They're not identifying with your brand, they're identifying with the Amazon brand. They're buying because it's Amazon, they get it in a day or two. They trust Amazon. They know that it's easy to return blah blah blah. In most cases, they don't really care about your brand. So if you're trying to build a brand you need to drive it to your own store. But using Amazon as a launch pad because it has a built in traffic and then you could use the data you get from Amazon you can refine your product get it fixed get that good feedback and then take that data from Amazon even as a 3rd party seller you can create what's called [inaudible 00:21:36.9] and all kinds of stuff on Facebook and then go out and build a brand that would identify more with you. And I think the best opportunity to build brands using Amazon is on consumables … on people … maybe it's dog treats or supplements or something like that where people will come in over and over and over. But if you're selling pool covers … building a brand is difficult so what I tell people is still trying to really build a brand initially that may come and evolve into that is more build … go after an avatar. So rather than just trying to be the guy doing all the pool supplies, to give yourself the best opportunity on Amazon so you're not stuck in a niche. I mean if you go after the pool supplies and you're doing pool covers and pool chemicals and pool everything else you're kind of stuck there. You're like okay what else can I find in a pool category versus if you go after an avatar and you pick a person … let's say it's a runner. I'm going to go after an athlete, people who love to run outdoors, then you can actually go across multiple categories and you can do something like something in electronics category that's a fitness tracker or a band to hold your iPhone on your arm or whatever and you could do socks and you could do water bottles. You can get across over all these different categories and you open yourself up to more opportunity. Or you can just … you know some people they don't care; it's just the shotgun approach. It's like I just find opportunities I don't care it's just cash flow. Typically if you have a brand it depends on the buyer. Some buyers actually really value that and they'll pay a higher multiple for that if you're planning on selling. Others don't care they just want the cash flow. So it depends and so when you're 1st starting you might just … I don't know that you need to think about that because it's going to evolve. Most people their 1st or 2nd product doesn't succeed, it's more of a learn … some people get lucky and it does but you can ask most big sellers that are doing 7, 8, 9 figures a year and they'll say yeah my 1st one it just I don't sell it anymore it didn't work. So I would get too stuck at that in the beginning. I would just keep going and then it's going to come to you. You're going to start seeing the opportunities and you'll be able to drive off. Joe: I got you, great information. It totally makes sense, the avatar and being able to say okay I'll do a running … people that are running. And it could be men, women, it could be kids. Again the products breath and depth is really really broad and deep as opposed to limiting to grilling products or swimming pool products. Kevin: Not to say you can't do that, I mean you can do that but I think the opportunity is better if you go towards an avatar rather than just a niche. Joe: Yup, got it. I love it. Let's talk about for those that are listening to this podcast Kevin obviously they can tell you know what you're talking about. They probably already know your name and have seen your presentations. What things are you doing and are your 7 and 8 figure friends doing that is new and different and must be done to help take things to the next level? What kind of tidbits can you share there? Kevin: Well the number one thing is to me the thing I've learned in this business is it's not about profit; it's about ROI if you're trying to grow a business. When I 1st started I was looking at products that would have nice profit margins. You hear people sometimes on Facebook say I've got 40, 50, 60% profit margins and those cases do exist rarely but I used to say bullshit on most of those people. The average in a private label business is between about 20 and 30% if you're doing things right. Joe: Let's call that seller's discretionary earnings for everybody listening that's … it's you run a net profit and you run a profit loss in Quick Books you get net profit on the bottom then we're going to add back those owner benefits like your salary like your meals and entertainment like your travel and things that nature that are not business related. So your net income plus your add backs equals your seller's discretionary earnings that's what we're talking about. Kevin: Now once you do your add backs that could go a little bit higher. I'm talking about just on the books you know when you when you are factoring it all your cost is about 20 to 30% on private label. On wholesale, it's closer to the 10 to 15% range. Joe: Right. Kevin: And wholesale businesses are a little bit harder to sell because you don't have really a brand. You're just selling other people's products. You don't have anything proprietary so they're a little bit harder to sell that's why I also said private labels is one of the better ones. So let's say it's in that 20 to 30% that's average, some people are higher than that some people are lower. But if you're in that 20 or 30% net you're doing okay for the most part. But what I used to do is when I was … it's … this business is all about choosing products. The product is the backbone of it. That's where it has a stone in a walk for a lot of people is they're afraid to pull the trigger because they're like I only have 5 grand or 10 grand to start, did I pick the right product. And sometimes they get paralysis by analysis and they just don't move forward. But when you're choosing a product I used to look at the profit margins. I'd find a crate maker for example as one of my old products and you know it had about a 40% margin from what I could buy it from landed and from what I was selling it from and I was like okay this is great but the problem was I was ordering … I ordered 1,000 of them and it took me about 6 months to sell those 1,000. And then I ordered another 1,000 and it took me about 5 months to sell the next thousand. So that's a turnover a little over 2 times per year. So I had a great profit on it but it was tying up my cash tying up my money and so ROI to me is the most important by far number in this business as you want to look at when you're sourcing products is what kind of return on investment. And that's basically how fast can you get your money back. And so I looked for ROI's of at least 150% or greater on everything I do now. And that basically means how many times … if I have and maybe a lower profit margin. Instead of the 40% profit margin, I may have a 25% profit margin. But if I have 150% ROI I'm working and turning that money and that inventory much much faster. And I can grow a lot quicker without having additional outside capital, without having to go into my RA or whatever it may be, or take expensive loans that are out there and you can grow your business faster. So by picking high ROI products, you have a greater chance to success. For example, I recommend you at least turn your inventory 4 times a year in an Amazon business. So it's basically every 3 months you need to be turning your inventory. Ideally 6 to 8. Some people you know a supplements business are at 12 or more. Just by example Walmart stores, their average inventory turnover is 8.3. So 8.3 times per year they're selling through their entire inventory. That's a critical number when choosing products and when choosing things to do in my opinion. So one of the bigger opportunities right now in the space is in the high ticket expensive items because all these courses out there they teach you find something if it fits in a shoe box it's lightweight weighs less, it's cost less than $20, it's easy to source you can buy in for a buck or 2 in China and sell them for 20 bucks on Amazon and the problem is that everybody is there. That's where everybody goes, that's where all the courses … everybody finds the same products, the same weighted blankets, the same barbecue gloves, the same stuff and only a few of those people succeed. And so if you go outside the box and look at the more expensive stuff maybe you don't have to buy a thousand units of them, you only have to buy some things that sell 5 per day but they're selling for $300 versus things that sell 50 per day and they're selling it at $20. You could make a lot more money on these more expensive things. And some people shy away from that because sometimes it's a little bit more of an investment to get into it. But there's great great opportunity there. And the other problem right now is what's happened with all the low end stuff is the Chinese hackers … most of them are Chinese, there are some that are Russian and Eastern European but the vast majority are Chinese and it's crazy what's happening out there. There are leaks inside of Amazon where these guys over in China can get the actual data straight from Amazon, the actual conversion data, the actual … they're doing all kinds of crazy stuff; hardcore competition and its part of their culture to do this. And most people don't … aren't aware of what's happening and your chances of competing on that lower end are getting harder and harder and harder because of all this. Joe: So you recommend to start off that way or you're thinking in terms of larger people … larger account owners to move into that category where its a larger ticket item and a high ROI? Kevin: Both. Joe: Both? Kevin: Yeah, both. Joe: Okay, you mentioned that if you're sending traffic to your Amazon store from Facebook you're doing something wrong on your Amazon … inside your Amazon seller account. What tools can be done what … and maybe it's all basics, Kevin, maybe this isn't anything new but what are the most important things to do to make sure you're improving your traffic on Amazon as much as possible or is it a combination of a number of different things? Kevin: I mean if you're a brand that already exists up there Amazon should just be a channel for you. You already have your own store. You're already selling in retail Amazon is just a channel so that's a little bit different approach. But if Amazon … if you're starting this business and Amazon is your primary focus at the beginning which is what most people are doing now that they're doing FBA business, Amazon is their primary focus in the beginning and that's great and people always say you shouldn't be an Amazon only business. You should be off Amazon and I agree with that but … and you could probably tell me more about this but my experience Joe in the valuations people always say well I don't want to just sell on Amazon. What if Amazon shuts my account down? Amazon likes to shoot 1st and ask questions later and then I'm screwed. I need to be selling on Walmart. I need to be selling on Jet. I need to have my own Shopify site. But most people, the vast majority of people that's a very small percentage of their sales and from my experience, unless it's 20 or 30% between … you know most people say about 30 % maybe you have a better number of your sales it doesn't really add to your valuation. If you got a sale or a buyer coming in if you got 2% of your sales in Walmart or [inaudible 00:30:59.9] if you get shut down on Amazon so what you're still screwed you got to fire everybody. And so most people it's hard to make that adjustment so my advice is if you're going to be starting on Amazon take advantage of the platform. There's never been a better opportunity. It's one of the best business opportunities in the last 100 years of business to start selling on Amazon. And like I said earlier if you're trying to build a brand then use that data and there are ways to do that to then start going off Amazon especially if you're on the consumables side. But I think you're better off taking that same energy that you're trying to put into building a Shopify site or trying to launch on Walmart to go expand to Canada, go expand to Europe, or go expand to Japan. You're much better off. You're going to get a better valuation. Canada is like 5% of my sales compared to the US but that's 2 ½ times what my sales in Walmart are and it's easy. It's same format. I already know how to do it. It's natural and most people are afraid to do that. They're afraid of other countries or they're afraid of other tax systems or they're … whatever. And its ego based. I want to be saying I sold on Walmart or I had my own site … it's bad. Joe: Yeah a lot of the folks that you and I know that are buying up Amazon businesses; one of the 1st things they do is take them international. They buy them and take them overseas. Let's talk about that for a minute- Kevin: But a lot of people don't do that because it's … you're basically doubling your investment. Let's say you want to go to Europe- Joe: They don't have the capital. Kevin: Most people in this business are cash strapped and that's where the opportunity right now is it's like the people that you just said that you know and that I know that are buying these, they're coming in with money and they see the opportunity and they come into play. And at first most of these entrepreneurs they use their life savings or … and then some to try to build this and they're cash strapped so they can't … I mean to go over to Europe you're basically okay now I got to buy all new inventory and float it and they can't do it. Joe: Yeah the people that are buying businesses like this that are coming into the entrepreneurial world for the 1st time say it's great why in the world are they selling? And I always have to ask that question on what they need to understand and what they're learning by going through the process is that most of these businesses whether it's a Shopify store or an Amazon business even those that I've sold in the past that are a combination of both and have a utility patent. It's still bootstrapped and most of the money being made is going back into inventory to keep up with growth. And they're not able to pull a whole lot out and so they're bootstrapping. And they don't expand overseas because they don't have any more places to dip into to pull more money. So somebody coming in from the outside that has that extra working capital and a mindset to take it beyond the 4 hour workweek and run it as you said a dozen times already as a real business and grow it into the different countries and take it beyond a one channel platform and beyond Amazon. You can take it to different countries and it's going to increase your value; it is when you could take it beyond into building that brand off of Amazon into different platform it builds your value even more. But you're got to be challenged. You got to look at that and say okay what … how long am I going to be in this game and how much am I going to invest in terms of time, energy, resources, risk into building a Shopify store and generating traffic to it. If you're going to sell in 6 months for those that are listening and you hear Kevin's advice you know multichannel he's right but every story is different and unique. You don't want to build a Shopify store and start driving traffic to it and investing a lot of money in breaking even or losing for 3 years down the road if you're going to sell in 6 months. My advice is to do what you do and do it really well. Keep selling on Amazon and make that business strong and have some built in path to grow. Kevin: Another one too besides Europe I mean like … or expanding to other market … I mean Amazon's into what 13 marketplaces now? But besides expanding to other marketplaces the other opportunity that's out there is … it goes again back again that gets cash strapped is retail. I mean retail is not dead. I mean there are all these stories about retail is dead and tears is going out of business and Radio Shack went out of business and blah, blah, blah. They didn't adapt. Amazon is going into retail. They've bought whole foods. They're opening retail Amazon Go's. They're opening these 4 star stores out. They're going … retail is not dead. It's still 90% of all sales out there and it's going to probably remain at above 80% for the next several decades. I mean ecommerce is gaining on … it's going to take a bigger share but so going into retail using Amazon as a proven ground is a great way to get into retail too. Joe: How do you make that leap though in Amazon? How do you go okay I'm going to go into retail? Is there a Helium 10 for retail? Kevin: No there's not a Helium 10 for retail, it's a whole different animal. You're just saying about the opportunities outside of Amazon is I agree going to Amazon … other Amazon Marketplace is first should be your top priority if you can. But going into retail I know several people that have started on Amazon and now they're crushing it in retail. But that's … again that's another cash flow thing you know you've got to … it's a whole different animal. There's people that teach … like Karen Waksman stuff that teaches actually people how to go from Amazon to retail and how to get into retail and how to use your Amazon reviews and sales and demographics. And you have this data like look you know I have a lot of people in New York or these areas and you have 27 Target stores right here you know you should be tearing my products. There's a lot you can do there but it's it takes again it's another financial thing. You got to wait 60 days or more to get paid or you got to use factoring to factor invoices and brief purchase orders and so it's a whole different animal but there's great opportunity there too. Joe: But it's also as you're saying it's more cash but it's also math figuring that out and pulling that data out of Amazon. A lot of people have trouble just pulling the data out. Kevin: Yeah they can't that's why I said in the beginning, this is math. If you're not good at math or data analysis you need someone on your team that is. This business is not about … I see so many people go like I improved the product, I made it better, I know my product is good people should just buy it. If the demand is not there, if the data doesn't work, the analyst … there's too much competition you can't … you don't have the margins you've got to bail. To me, people get too emotionally tied to products and then it becomes their little baby and they don't want to abandon their child. Sometimes you've got to kick the kid out of the house. So many people won't do that. I have a rule that after 6 months … I get a product 6 months that I launch. When I launch a new product under my account if within 6 months it's not throwing off at least $2,000 a month in profit, I drop the product because I can deploy that capital in a better way. And so I have … you know some people their business models add, add, add products they got hundreds or thousands of products in their portfolio, mine is not that. I have about 15 to 20 and I do 7 figures so it's manageable. And I kick out once that I replace them with something that can give me a better … it's like stocks you know. I treat products like stocks. And I look at them like stocks, where can I get the best return? And get rid of the low performing ones and replace them, deploy that money into getting something that's higher return. Joe: Let's talk about that just for a minute. We're running a little short on time but I want to touch on new products and staying relevant. And it's going to different for each one. But we're talking now about again the people that are buying the Amazon businesses and one of the great things they can do if they've got capital is to expand to the other countries. What about launching new products is there any methodology to how often you should launch a new product? Or should you just adopt what you've talked about which is it needs to kick off this amount of profit or I get rid of it? And how many can you manage and the folks that you know that are doing … are they doing 10, 15, 20; what are they doing? Kevin: It depends on your … I know people that have 800 products doing 9 figures a year and I know people … typically the people that are doing 9 figures a year have a lot of products. The people that are doing 6 and 7 figures typically … I mean some of them have a lot of products some of them has 50, 60, 70 products. That seems to be kind of a ballpark range. For these guys there in the million dollar figures, they typically are in the probably at least 40, 50 products and then some thousands of products. But as far as launching new products it's all based on the more products you can launch the better you can grow, its cash flow and its opportunities. I see opportunities all the time when I'm doing keyword research and product research and I can't act on it I just don't have the money or I don't have the resources. I'm a small team you know. Some people have 20 people and they could deploy faster. They're sitting in their underwear in their house and it's just them and a couple of VA's. So you're limited by that as well. So it depends on your strategy and your resources how fast you could deploy but as you see opportunities and they still exist out there and there are still new ones coming up every day is taking advantage of those depends on your cash and your team size. And the more of them you can take advantage of the faster you could grow and the more you could sell for. But the money in this business too, one of the important point I want to make is I truly believe that money is made in the sourcing, not on the selling. A lot of people always go what can I sell the product for? It's not what you can sell it for it's what you can source it for. Because you have more price … you're more immune to price competition that way. If everybody is going to Alibaba or global sources or online Google and stuff and just by example you know I just went to China. I went to the Canton fair and there are some socks that a friend of mine sold last year and sold like six … $700,000 for these socks Christmas time and they were paying something like 2 bucks a pair for these socks. Well I found those exact same socks by just going to the Canton fair at 57 cents. You're not going to find that online so most people that are out there doing Amazon they're sourcing online. They're using Alibaba, they're using global sources, my saying is get on a freaking plane and go to China. Because going in face to face you can … it's a big deal in their culture and you could find a lot of stuff that just doesn't exist. I found one supplier of these like Christmas bags that I was like okay great you have a lot of bags I might want to sell these next year as a seasonal item. I said can I go to your website? He said no I don't have a website, oh if you have a catalog … no, I don't have a catalog. I said so how do I order from you? He said take pictures. He had 10,000 different types of bags. Take a picture of what you want here and I'll give you a price, that and the prices were ridiculously low from what I could find on Alibaba. Joe: Sounds like an awful and wonderful- Kevin: So I'm like this is the best opportunity ever because nobody else is going to find this guy. His quality is good, the prices are ridiculous. So that's what I mean the money is made in the sourcing. So if someone else … if I buy a box of socks for example if someone else … you know if I'm buying them at 57 cents and someone else comes in and I'm selling mine say for 10 bucks and all of a sudden someone comes in and starts selling them for 5 bucks. Well, I'm like shoot if I got to go to 4.99 to compete and I'm paying 2 bucks there what my margin maybe I'm going in the hole even after the Amazon fees and everything. Because typically it's about a 3rd a 3rd a 3rd … I mean just as a … if you're doing math, get math, ballpark math Amazon typically takes about a 3rd of the selling price, about a 3rd of the selling price is your cost of goods sold and other expenses, and about 3rd is your profit. So I don't [inaudible 00:41:52.6] 5 bucks there went all my profit but if I'm at 57 cents I can still compete. So that's what I mean the money is in the sourcing and so don't be afraid to get on a plane and go to one of these big fairs in China. Go visit factories that can make a huge difference. And people that are selling, you know the biggest thing that they're already successful the number one thing you can do is if you're sourcing from China especially is get on a plane and go meet your factory. Go eat strange bugs and weird stuff and monkey hearts and whatever the hell else they eat crazy stuff over there and get drunk with the supplier and watch what happens to your pricing. Watch what happens to your terms. All of a sudden 30% down 70% on delivery all of a sudden maybe you get a 60 day terms or you get some other things that can make a huge difference in your business and the pricing is lower. Now you're their buddy you get priority on the production line when it's Christmas time or before Chinese New Year your stuff goes out first. It's amazing what you can do on the sourcing side. Joe: Wow Kevin that's incredible stuff, a lot of tidbits there. Incredible; really, thank you. I understand why you're traveling all over the world speaking and presenting here. If people want to reach out to you and find you how do they go about doing that? Kevin: Yeah sure I mean the probably easiest way is to go to AMZmarketer.com That's A – M – Zed Marketer.com that just redirects to my Facebook page where you can … I don't sell you anything there. It's just where you can listen to all the different podcasts I've been on; a lot of free content. You might get some ideas or learn something. Or if you're already selling at IlluminatiMastermind.com or if you're new to the business and I always recommend this to people … if you're new to the business or even if you've been selling for a while go to FreedomTicket.com there's a webinar there. It's about a two hour webinar it's … you could choose a date on auto replay. It's not live right now but just watch that. You don't have to buy the course if you don't want to but just watch the first hour of that webinar and I think you'll walk away from that. It's not a sales pitch in the first hour. It's a lot of hard core data on how to choose the keywords, how to do things right in this business and just … it's hard core training and just watch that and that might help you understand some stuff. Joe: That sounds great. I hope a lot of people will do that. Those people that are currently running their Amazon businesses and plan to exit someday and the people that are buying we want them to be successful and grow their businesses and come back and sell them someday so that's awesome. Thanks so much, Kevin. I appreciate your time. I look forward to seeing you at the next event. Kevin: Cool, I appreciate it. Thanks. Links and Resources: AMZMarketer.comIlluminatiMastermind.comFreedomTicket.com  

GUEST BIO: Joe Birch is an Android Engineer, working as part of the Android team at Buffer.  He is passionate about coding and loves creating robust, polished and exciting projects for mobile, the web, TV, wearables and whatever the latest thing is.  Joe is also a keen writer and public speaker, enabling him to share his learnings and experiences with others. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: Phil’s guest on today’s show is Joe Birch. Currently, he is working as a Senior Android Engineer at Buffer. He also spends a lot of time at Caster.IO sharing his knowledge as an Android Instructor. Joe has also worked as a content manager for Eroski and as a freelance photographer. KEY TAKEAWAYS: ­­­(1.02) – So Joe, can you expand on that summary and tell us a little bit more about yourself? Joe explained that he is also a Google Developer expert for Android and that he loves playing with anything technology related. Phil noted that Joe’s current role provides him with a nice balance. In that role he is able to continue to develop his skills as an Android developer as well as explore new tech. (1.42) – Phil asks Joe for a unique IT career tip. Joe believes that sharing what he has learned is helping him to continue to learn new things. At first, he was reluctant to speak publicly and share what he knows in writing. Like many developers, he was afraid that people may not think he was good enough or what he was saying was right. He was worried about being trolled and having to deal with a lot of negative comments. In reality, the opposite is true. He believes that putting yourself out there is a great way to further your IT career. It is especially good for networking. (2.54) – At this point, Joe is asked to share his worst career moment. About 3 years ago Joe wanted to make a big change at the company he worked for. In an effort to achieve that change, he ended up spending virtually every waking moment online. He believed that he had to be constantly online to be able to advance in his career. In reality, that is not necessary. Joe did not burn out completely, but, it did have a negative effect on his well-being. (3.56) – Phil asks Joe if this experience has lead to him changing his approach. The answer is yes, he balances work out with running and keeping fit. He goes to the gym before going on his laptop and makes time to read and does not work right up until he goes to bed. (5.01) – Phil asks Joe what his best career moment was. He says that when he gave his first public speech, the fact that it was a success significantly boosted his confidence and opened several doors for him. It gave him the speech bug and really helped him to build a name for himself. If he wants to learn a new technology, he will apply to give a speech about it. That pushes him to really dive in and learn everything he can about that new technology. (7.03) – Phil wants to know what excites Joe about the future of the IT industry. For Joe, it is the pace of change. You know that there is always going to be something new to explore. Just look at Android, to start with it was just phones. Now there is Android TV, Android Things and Google Home, with more in the pipeline. (8.24) – What drew you to a career in IT? Joe studied computer science at university, but he was not sure exactly what he wanted to do. For his final project, he created an App. The thrill of seeing people download and use it is what hooked him and made him pursue a career in IT. (9.14) – What is the best career advice you have ever received? At Joe’s last job his boss had a chat with him about the fact that it is not necessary to “know everything”. He helped Joe to realize that he was getting caught up in the latest things instead of focusing. His boss wanted him to stop being so distracted and focus in on the things he enjoyed and was passionate about. (10.06) – If you were to begin your IT career again, right, now, what would you do? Joe says it is important to network right from the start. He used to attend conferences, but never spoke to many people. This was largely due to a lack of confidence. (10.51) – Phil asks Joe what he is currently focusing on his career. Joe explains that for about two years now, he has wanted to write a book. He is in the process of trying to make that a reality. Joe also has several side projects on the go, some of which he has been working on for a while. Right now, he is focusing on actually getting them finished. (11.38) – What’s the most important non-technical skill that has helped you in your career? The ability to say no has really helped Joe to focus on what he really wants to do. Joe has noticed that for a lot of developers saying no is really hard. Phil agrees, he says it is a combination of not wanting to miss out and feeling the need to please everyone. “The risk is that you just say yes to everything.” (12.51) – Phil asks Joe to share a few final words of career advice. Joe’s advice is to learn new things and share what you know. Put it out there, get feedback and take action. BEST MOMENTS: (2.15) JOE – “That held me back from sharing things. And in turn, I think that also held me back from learning new things.” (5.10) JOE – “Giving my first talk was a massive confidence boost for me and really opened up a lot more doors.” (7.41) JOE – “I know there's always gonna be something new for me to engage with and play with.” (13.11) JOE – “Just get stuck in and show what you're doing, even if someone's already written about it.” CONTACT JOE BIRCH: Twitter: https://twitter.com/hitherejoe LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-birch-80392157/ Website: https://hitherejoe.com Medium: https://medium.com/hitherejoe

John began his career working in politics, including as a writer in the Clinton White House, Office of Presidential Letters and Messages. He was also a Speechwriter in the California Governor's Office during the Davis Administration, and later he became an Attorney. John gave up speechwriting and the law to become a blogger and podcaster! He helps business owners connect with anyone they want to connect with. And they find their businesses grow exponentially because of it. He also owns and operates a website and related Podcast called SmartBusinessRevolution.com where he shows entrepreneurs how to build and use relationships to build more value, revenues and profits in their businesses. John's take on the business: The number one, most important thing that will determine your level of success or failure in business is your relationships. In this Podcast episode John shares his insights on building stronger relationships, and connecting with people that can make a difference in your business. Episode Highlights: John's history as a white house intern, staff writer, attorney and entrepreneur Why “helping first” matters most. How to build relationships without being awkward. How to break the ice with a new group of people. Learn some basic mechanics of talking with people. Making connections brings more value. Why delivering value works best. How making introductions builds value for you. How does John make a living in “networking”. Events where “mixing” is required and new people are attending. How to monetize Podcasting Transcription: Mark: So I remember an event … I think it was three years ago, I was at Pubcon and I had hired a PR firm to be able to help with Quiet Light Brokerage and some things that we were trying … no was it four years ago we were trying to do and I had hired somebody to come with me from a PR firm and she was an awesome networker. I mean she was phenomenal at what she did. And she came out to me laughing at the networking event at Pubcon because she said this is so funny. She's like I'm so used to networking events where everybody's a professional networker and she said people here obviously are not because everyone was looking down at their phones and shuffling their feet and saying I don't really want to introduce myself to anybody so I'm going to pretend like I actually have something to do on my phone. And you know what that was also me. I'm a terrible networker. I'm not really good at it. I'm a natural introvert. Joe, I understand you had John Corcoran and he's a networker and you guys talked about networking. This is an area where I struggle so I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you guys discussed. Joe: You know one of the first things John said was don't fall asleep, don't tune out because it's networking. You can grow your business dramatically by meeting the right people and being introduced to the right people. You don't go at it with that approach ias John's thought it's more just building relationships and those relationships lead to additional connections and relationships that can help grow your business; double, triple the size of your business. It's helped us dramatically through what this podcast we've met so many people. It's broken down doors and they feel like they know us more because of it. The networking that John talks about is exactly the same. It's through all of the different events that we might attend to. And he kind of gives some tips on breaking the ice to make connections and really kind of the Golden Rule approach to networking. It's a fascinating story. John's actually a fascinating guy. He used to work as a speechwriter for … I think it's called presidential letters during the Clinton administration. He did not know Monica Lewinsky. For those listening, I did ask. It was pre-recording but he absolutely didn't know her. Yeah, everybody chuckles poor girl really, seriously. He went to law school after doing that and eventually became a lawyer, practicing attorney and replaced his income as a lawyer by podcasting and blogging and doing that through networking. Pretty impressive guy, great story and I think he can help a great deal with people that don't realize how important networking is in helping other people is to their business at the end of the day. Mark: Awesome let's go right on into it and learn a little bit more about networking. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got a very special guest. His name is John Corcoran and he has a ton of experience both as a writer for the White House, as an attorney, and as a networking specialist. John, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. John: Thanks to have had me, Joe. Joe: Quite heavy here man. We met at the Prosper Show you're doing that very thing, walking around with a camera and a microphone, networking, talking to people, helping James do a great job there which they always do and I think you've been a big part of that. But that's my intro right there. I need you to tell these folks that are listening all about your background, your experience, who you are, and what you're all about. John: Sure. Well hopefully, people didn't tune out when they heard oh networking I hate that stuff. That's a funny reaction that people have. It's kind of like sales right? We know it's important but we also kind of hate it. And oftentimes that's because we've had some kind of negative interaction or negative experience with it; some guy coming up and sticking you his business card in your hand, in your face trying to sell you on something at a networking event. I'm not an advocate of that. I think there's a lot smarter ways to do it, a lot of tools that we have available. My background you know when I was a kid I moved around a lot. My father lost a job three separate times and each time we had to move across the country 3,000 miles away; away from family and friends. That experience taught me the importance of building relationships in business and it's critically important. And as a result of that, I've had some amazing experiences in my career. As you mentioned right there in the White House, in the Clinton White House years, speechwriter with the Governor of California. I had my own legal practice for a number of years and now I've got a business called Rise25 and a blog and a podcast called Smart Business Revolution. That's really more of my focus now and we bring people together at live events and I really enjoy doing that. Joe: Tell us a little bit about your background in terms of … I'm looking at your bio here and it says you went from party school to the White House. Just for the sake of the people that are listening, how the hell did you make that transition from being at a party school to writing speeches for the president? John: It's strange I know. It's a strange trajectory. So yeah I mean basically I went from an English major, getting a BA in English at a party school to within a year of that I was a writer in presidential letters and messages in the Clinton White House. It's kind of like a second tier speechwriter. I'm kind of like a … you know as a speechwriter has pulled a hamstring then we would step in, that kind of thing. But it was an amazing experience. I had interned in the speechwriting office during college. It was an amazing experience and I went back to college. And networking lesson number one is keep in touch with the people in your network. And once you build a relationship with someone it's really important to keep in touch with them. And so I was back at college, I knew I'd love to get a job at the White House but not all former interns get that kind of gig and so I kept in touch. I would send things from time to time like speeches or articles or passages that I found that I would send to the speechwriters. Not as a way of saying like hey do you have a job for me? But they … it kept me top of mind and what do you know a month or a couple of months later, a year later something like that they reached back out and said hey we heard about this position for you and I ended up applying and getting it. So it was an amazing experience. Joe: Were you taught that or did you just intuitively share information, stayed in touch and tried to help with little bits and informa,tion that you found? John: Yeah looking back I think really it was part of how I grew up and having to be that kid who is new in the class. I remember what it's like to move in the middle of a school year into … I went from Southern California to Massachusetts which is a huge culture shock. From being a kid it was like out at the beach to like dock siders and button downs and stuff like that in Massachusetts. It's a very different kind of culture and showing up in the middle of the school year when everyone had been in the same group of kids for years and years. And so it taught me the importance of being able to go into a new community and be able to make friends essentially. And I did that a number of times growing up and so I just realize the importance of it. And also just with watching my dad struggle when he got laid off a couple of times, the importance of building a network before you need it. You need to have these things so that when the S-H-I-T hits the fan, which it does from time to time, the economy or your company going under or whatever you've got to have that network. You have to have built those relationships first so that you can use them when you need them. Joe: Yeah I think it's essential. There are several mentors in my life that have given imparted wisdom. One of them is along those lines and it kind of goes with what I've recently studied which is a DarrenDaily … they call them DarrenDaily it's a Darren Hardy program, you know essentially it sounds like what you do about speechwriters was you gave something to them first. You didn't expect anything in return. You were giving them something to help them. Hey here's an idea and you were on top of mind because of that. And then you kept giving throughout the year and eventually, you got something back. Maybe it wasn't your intention to get something back but you were there, you were front of mind and you were offering something to them. I find that the same thing applies to what I do. You talked about networking it'll gross folks, don't tune out because of that. Same thing with a broker man, I'm a “broker” right? I'm a business broker. People get sort of turned off by that if they go with the general label of business broker. But more than anything else we just simply try to help. We try to help people with whatever the issue is, with the experiences that we have, with the knowledge that we have, with the relationships that we have. I refer people out all the time helping them connect with bookkeepers, attorneys, whatever it might be expecting absolutely nothing in return. Eventually, we'll run into them at a conference and spend some time with them and build a relationship with them and then they may refer somebody to us or if when they decide to sell their business they'll think of us first. I don't like networking. I don't. I never have. I'm a bit of an introvert. I love doing the podcast because it's just you and me it's not a whole group of people here. I don't have to walk up in a crowded room. I'm a kind of a low talker so people can't hear me. I've got a big microphone now so that helps. How do you advise people to sort of break the ice with a new networking group or a mastermind group or if they're at an event like Rhodium Weekend like E-commerce Fuel like Smart Marketer, like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, and to just walk up to a group of people and start talking? How do you recommend they do that? Just say hey because obviously, they're strangers too? John: Yeah I mean there's a high level and then there's the mechanics of what you use in a physical … a face to face type of interaction like that which also applies to online. You know a lot of networking we do these days can be through tools like LinkedIn or Facebook or something like that where you can really leverage relationships. So I would say first you got to start with okay am I at the right event to begin with? And that requires some really deep soul searching. Are you going in the right direction with your career? And people do pivots all the time. They change, they just … they lose passion for something. So you have to be sure you're going in the right direction because you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. And if you're at the wrong event then you're not going to find the right people there who you're going to want to engage with or you're going to want to talk to. So start with that and then secondly I think you're right about the give approach. You've got to focus on okay I'm going to give, give, give as much as possible and then after that people are going to want to return the favor. And that doesn't mean you should be taken advantage of but it means you should try and deliver value to people first before you try and hit them with a sales pitch. We've all been hit with a sales pitch right off the bat where people tries to get something from us or tries to get us to buy from them and it just doesn't feel right. It sits in our stomachs. So don't be that kind of person. Be a giver first. And then [inaudible 00:11:08.3] talking to people face to face in an event or something like that. Usually, I think people struggle because they over think it and they think okay I want to come up with some brilliant thing that will be related to my vocation, that will get us in a big discussion around what it is I do so that I can sell them on something. Well, the truth is you should spend a lot more time on just more human conversation. It could about hey how about this crazy weather we've been having or when did you get in? If you're at a conference you know where are you from? Maybe it's something on their attire, maybe they have an interesting shirt on or something like that. A lot of times there are little tidbits that you can you can pick out of there and then that gets you into a conversation. And then people leave little breadcrumbs all the time they just require exploring. People will mention oh yeah I was a little delayed my daughter had a volleyball tournament and so I wasn't able to get here when I wanted to. Well, that's a huge opening right there explore that. Go a little bit further and say oh really where did she play volleyball, what was the tournament, what was … how is she doing, what position is she in? Just taking an interest in people will get you really really far. Joe: It almost goes back to our teenage days when our parents told us just to take an interest in the girls and ask questions and it would work out pretty well. John: I know. Joe: We were teenagers and we paid no attention and we got it all wrong. At least I did, I don't know about you though. John: Exactly. I don't even know if my parents gave me that amount of advice so [inaudible 00:12:37.8]. Joe: I'm trying to do with my kids and I know that you're doing something with your son. I saw it on LinkedIn. I love that you're helping him sell some- John: Yeah we're- Joe: It's … I almost said Girl Scout cookies. John: Yeah … oh no, it's Kab Scout. And it's funny he's like a natural born entrepreneur. He just turned eight and loves selling stuff, loves making money and so we're kind of using it as a teaching opportunity. But right there, there's a good example okay. You said I hate networking, a lot of people say that I hate networking but I love connecting with people. They'll follow it up with that and then I'll say okay well what do you think networking is really? I mean it's connecting with people. Maybe you hate being in a room full of strangers and not sure what to say, that's a given and that's fine. I totally get that. A lot of people get uncomfortable in that kind of situation. But me sharing my son's experience and experience we're going through with learning about setting up a website to sell Boy Scout popcorn as a fundraiser you know that's a way of remaining top of mind with people who are in your network on LinkedIn. And people see that and then it's also a way of teaching too because I'm also using it as a teaching opportunity as well. And it also personalizes me. I found … you probably found this too, when people they know more about you personally, a passion, or a hobby that you have or they know something about your kids or something they're a lot more connected to you. And I mean I discovered this a long time ago, long before I had kids. When I asked people about their children before I had kids I would ask too about their children because I notice they would light up. And it just breaks down these walls, breaks down these barriers, it allows you to really accelerate the connecting process so that you get to know that person a lot better and they're a lot more motivated to help you. They start to treat their interactions with you less transactionally and more like a true friend, a relationship; something that they actually are invested in helping. So that's why I do things like that is sharing a little piece … if you share a little piece about your life, it's not everything, but sharing a piece about your life it makes people more connected to me. It makes me top of mind and who knows where it might lead after that. Joe: Right, I couldn't agree more. I saw it and I felt it humanized you and I felt like I knew you a little bit better even though we've only met a couple of times. I was a guest on your podcast, you're a guest on ours, and we met at the Prosper Show. So I totally get it. By way of example a lot of people listening they're either buyers or sellers and they love to monetize things. They say well how can I monetize something? And I want to give an example, I got a text today about two hours before this recording where someone was at an event in Miami and I introduced him to somebody else. They connected and he said to me, he sent me a text and he's like thank you for introducing me to so and so. I feel like I got 1.5 million dollars' worth of value out of that lunch and I'm buying a business from him for much less than that so I feel like I've doubled my money. And they were able to meet face to face for the first time and just get that connection. And that particular individual is making a point of helping lots of different people. I can't give you his name but every time I speak with someone that has connected with him it's not about what they got from him it's what … which they did get it's what he did for them. And that comes back around and it gets monetized in a variety of different ways. Most people listening again are either buyers or sellers thinking how the heck is this going to help me? Back when I sold my business in 2010 there weren't really any Mastermind groups. There were certainly not any Facebook groups. There weren't any Smart Marketer events or Rhodium weekend, any of these things that we go to now and connect with people over and over and over again and it's eventually just a trip to hang out with our friends. Hanging out with those friends now and sharing that information without expectations or getting back anything else is what I think is the way to immaterially monetize it. You can monetize it but you have a hard time calculating it. Do you have any direct experiences or examples where you can say you know I introduced these two people … this person connected with so and so and their business took off because of it? John: Oh … I mean I couldn't narrow it down. I mean I have so many examples of that sort of thing and I do it more than most people. So I don't want to say that you need to spend all your time doing that. There are some connectors who spend too much time going out delivering value, connecting other people. But let me put it this way if you try the alternative … the opposite that certainly doesn't work. We know that doesn't work. If you just go out there and you don't try and deliver value and you just try and pitch people we all know that doesn't work very well right? So if you try the alternative, if you try the give first approach you will see dollars and cents to your bank account, others will see dollars and cents in their bank account. I can think of offhand two situations where I introduced two people to each other, kind of like you, you're just an introduction; no strings attached or anything like that. I just thought you two would get along and they started a business together. In one case those two individuals, they lived in the same state but opposite sides of the state. One ended up moving to the other part of the state so that they could work together and have a business together as a result of that one introduction. And you know those people will walk to the end of the earth for me after I've made that introduction. So it definitely turns into dollars and cents in terms of more clients, more referrals that sort of thing. Joe: But that wasn't your intention right? John: No … I mean it's not my intention but I will say this, look we're all in business, we're all motivated by making money, we want to keep the lights on, we want to keep food in the fridge right? So I don't say at all that you should go out there and you should just be randomly introducing everyone on the street or be doing it matchmaking or something like that. You should do it strategically. You should do it because it's good for your business. I'm not saying go on and do it because for charitable purposes although it is a great thing to do and it does great … it puts great good out into the world. I'm saying do it because it's good for your business. It's good for your career. And it has just been the experience that I've lived. There are great books out there by the way, Give and Take by Adam Grant, Dale Carnegie all the books that he's written. These books they give voluminous examples of people who have resulted in much value coming back to them as a result of the value that they put out in the world. Joe: And you got to a lot of events, a lot of networking events where you have got both business owners, employees, founders, and potential buyers attending them; are there any particular events that you love because specifically the way that it's organized for networking that you can … through off the top of your head, two or three of your favorite events? John: Is this cheating or can I say the ones that we do because they're- Joe: You know people are probably going what the hell does this guy do for a living? It's networking, how does he make money so … answer the question how do you make a living? John: Sure. Joe: You're a networking guy, how do you make a living? What do you do? John: Yeah. So … well, first of all, I was a practicing lawyer for many years. And even when I was a practicing lawyer I mean just introducing your clients is really valuable and giving … thinking about your clients because they will send more business back to you. Your referral partners would send more business back to you. So when I was actually full time practicing law I was practicing what I do today. Eventually, that pivoted into a blog and a podcast which replaced my income as a lawyer and I monetized both of those through a variety of digital courses and through affiliate promotions and that sort of thing. Today I run Rise25 with my business partner. We do live events. We go to conferences and we partner with conferences and hold on connection events like VIP receptions, like dinners, like all-day Masterminds at conferences. Again connecting people but we create the forum. We invite the people. We bring them in. Another thing we do also- Joe: Just to understand so you're not actually putting on the entire event, you're putting on a segment of it or a specific group of attendees. John: Right, and there's an important lesson in that because we've done our own standalone events but the reason that we do a lot of that now … an important lesson for others is it's a lot easier to go where the fish are already gathered to go fishing rather than try and pick some spot in the middle of the lake where there are no fish and attract them back to it. Go to the spot where all the fish are gathered which is what we do around conferences. The other thing we do is we do some Done-For-You lead generation as well. So we do Done-For-You lead gen so helping people with the process that we've used for years to generate leads for our self we help other businesses with that as well. Joe: What types of businesses? John: It's primarily professional services but e-commerce as well. So it's anyone who's … I mean who doesn't need leads right? Every business needs leads whether it's you're trying to connect with someone who might buy your business or whether you're trying to connect with new customers or clients or referral partners or strategic partners or whatever. You know there's a lot of different … the truth is everyone need … and like you're selling like a very inexpensive widget which is often the case with e-commerce there's often someone higher leverage who you are trying to connect with. So that might be other website owners or it might be other people who are selling on the same marketplace as you, or just other sellers that you want to connect with, or other professionals or something. It's a variety of different applications that we'd manage for people. But you asked … so you asked the question earlier was types of events that I'm preferable to. The type of event … and I want to answer that because that's an important question and it actually guides my decision making in what events I go to. I don't like going to events where the culture does not encourage people to mix with one another and what do I mean by that? Oftentimes you have events where at a local … this often happens on a local level like at a chamber of commerce or something like that where you have repeat people coming back month after month and they kind of know enough other people that there isn't enough mixing. I like events personally where I go to an event and I can just stick out my hand and talk to someone or someone else will stick out their hand and just talk to me where you feel free to meet other people. The other thing is I really like formats of events which breaks the mold. They're not just the boring, stuffy kind of reception type of format but I like the ones that are different. So actually just last night we had an event in Chicago which was a VIP food tour and we've done this a number of times, I did one in San Francisco a couple of weeks back and it's like a progressive dinner party meets a networking reception. We kind of combine the two and rather than keeping everyone in one room with watered down drinks and talking to each other all night or maybe being at a dinner table where you're stuck talking to the guy in the right of you and the guy in the left of you for the entire night, we take a group and we take them to multiple locations over the course of an evening. So you're up, you're down; you're sitting next to different people the entire time. You're walking or sitting on a bus next to different people. And we love doing that format because it gets people meeting more people which is really what we're about. So that's another piece of what we do. I realize [inaudible 00:23:45.3] to what we do but you asked the question what types of events so I really enjoy that format. Joe: All right. Tell us about Rise25 and the blog … the podcast and the blog. I want to know more about that. I have a feeling here John that people are going to want to listen to your podcast and learn more about what you do. John: Yeah. Joe: Just … let's hear it. John: Yeah so Smart Business Revolution I started it about eight or nine years ago now. It was a blog and a podcast, it still is. I continue to write there. I continue to publish podcasts. I started … this is an important lesson because now we do help clients with this as well so this is part of the lead generation piece is eight or nine years ago when I was a full time practicing law literally I had a client who came in and he hired me for a tiny little matter. It was $500 of writing a lease for him. I was reading about the guy and I was like wow this is a really interesting guy. He was an entrepreneur. He had started multiple companies one of which had gone public. So he's really successful. I was thinking how can I make … how can I turn this guy into like my best client? You know come back to me over and over again. Literally what I just did is I said hey do you have like 20 minutes I'd love to just like ask you some questions about your career and your businesses and everything. I'm going to record it and I'm going to publish it. I didn't even know how to do that. I didn't even know how to record or publish; podcasting wasn't even a thing back then. And so I ended up doing that, I asked him all these questions. What's amazing is you're publicizing that person. It's exactly what we're doing right now. But you're publicizing that person and you're also asking them questions about their challenges, their opportunities, you're figuring out are there other ways that you can help this person or deliver value to that person? And so what do you know he ended up turning into a great client. He ended up coming back to me and saying hey can you help me with this and this and this other thing too. And it's a strategy that I've used over and over again. I've done it probably three or 400 times with different people where you just simply take an interest in someone else. And you go the extra mile so you actually record it and you publish it and you give them a promotion, give them publicity, you send traffic, you send eyeballs to them. Again it's exactly what you're doing right now. You don't have to have a podcast to do it although podcasting is such an accepted and understood medium these days so that's really the best way to do it today. And I think everyone should have a podcast because it's so powerful. Joe: And you've figured out a way to monetize the podcast and the blog as well which is really weird if we think about the fact that you went to law school, quit to be a podcaster and a blogger and you replaced your income. How did you manage to do that? John: Well so, first of all, you can monetize a podcast … when people hear … I know I just wrote an article about this. I did a research study and I surveyed hundreds of podcasters and I asked them how they monetized their podcast. And so you can go to Smart Business Revolution and you can see the article now. It's at Rise25 also. And people generally thought … they thought of the traditional model, the old school media model. Like I'm just going to build up a big audience and then I'm going to sell ads or sponsorship. And that is only one of dozens of different ways of monetizing a podcast. It's actually probably the worst of all of them and yet everyone thinks that that's what you need to do. It's the most difficult to do. So I mean I've monetized my podcast in a variety of different ways including getting more clients, getting more referrals, filling live events, filling webinars, strategic partnerships; you name it. If you can connect what it is you do which is your business, your profession with the podcast which not everyone does a great job of connecting those two. Sometimes they are completely unrelated and if you have a hobby podcast that's fine that's not what we're talking about here. But if you connect those two and you use them to build more relationships with prospective clients, with referral partners, with strategic partners, you use that podcast in order to build more of those relationships and connect with SALT leaders and gurus and speakers and authors that you would never otherwise have a chance of connecting with then it's an amazing powerful tool. It's … I mean I've been able to have conversations with people who would never give me the time of the day you know what I mean? Like I can't email Gary Vaynerchuk and say hey man I would be in New York can you meet me at a Starbucks for 45 minutes? I want to pick your brain; I'm going to ask some questions about my business. Is that cool? [inaudible 00:28:00.1] like who are you I'm not going to do that but I had him on my podcast even though he's a busy guy because of the nature of the medium. So that's why I'm such a huge fan of the medium it's just … and it's a much better way to network. That's what we're talking about right? Connecting, building relationships, seeing how you can help each other, giving, all of those are encapsulated in the process of doing a podcast and everyone should do it. Joe: I agree 100%. It's what we do; it's why we do it. Because we're connecting with people like you that might be hard to connect to or with otherwise. John: Oh yeah absolutely, I wouldn't return your call if it weren't for that. Joe: I know you're never going to list it … and it personalizes things right? You can write an amazing article, give some amazing advice but without that personality behind it, it's just words on paper. We had people tell us that if they chose someone else to go with someone else it's because they felt like they knew them because they listened to their podcast. John: Yeah. Joe: So I think the personalization of it is important. I think that for those listening that maybe an expert on an advertising business, content, blog, or a SaaS business, or an e-commerce business and you're wondering how the heck do you benefit from this, how would you start a podcast and what … how is it going to work for you? You're going to connect with people that are going to be experts giving advice and you're going to benefit from it in your own business being able to apply some of that advice and being able to pick their brain as well. In addition to other people that have had great success that may come onto to the podcast and share their story and may want to do business with you as well. You just never know what's going to come of it if you just help others and give. And yes it is business we're all in this to put food on the table and hopefully put some money in retirement and stop doing this someday when were not capable anymore but it's fun and it's enjoyable. John: Yeah. Joe: And we get to make a living from it which is kind of nice too. John: Yeah and you know I say it's kind of personal and professional development that also doubles as marketing. Because you're enriching yourself, you're learning, you're asking questions, you're learning and you're also recording it and you're going to put it up on the internet and it's going to exist forever. So it's marketing that will be out there for you forever. And if you're asking well I sell a widget, it … I don't see how that's going to help me or maybe it's some other seller out there that you want to connect with or maybe it's potentially a buyer. I mean that's a great way to use that as a tool. It will help me with hiring, recruitment right? There's so many other ways that you can you can do it. I mean I'm sure Joe you've had this experience, I've had this experience when people come up to me and you have a conversation with them and they're just kind of like smiling as they listen to you talk because you know what's going on in their head they're thinking wow he sounds just like he does in the podcast. And people will say that, they'll be like man you just … you talk just like you do in the podcast. Well, guess what when I'm on the podcast that's me. I'm not putting out an act or anything like that I'm just actually being me you know. And we've had people that would go … a couple of people who came in to our event recently in San Francisco who had gotten to know me from the podcast and the funny thing is … and this takes a little getting used to, the funny thing is that they've been listening on their own time while I'm doing other things to episodes, past episodes, the whole back catalog and when they come up they feel like they've already built a relationship with you. That's wonderful because of the know like and trust process right? You are already that much further along so it then makes it just a lot easier to have a conversation with them around some kind of strategic partnership or a client … a relationship of some sort. It's just a lot easier. You'd move the ball a lot further down the field. Joe: 100%, I couldn't agree more and I would recommend that everybody does it. For those that are going to events and I've been to many of them and I have that stigma of being a broker. We don't pitch at Quiet Light, we're just here to help so we have to get around that stigma some way. But I was at an event last March I think it was and I've had a conversation with two or three other people and this guy walked up and he just stood there and he started to shake his head up and down and you know at the right moment he just stuck his hand out and introduced himself. And that I think taught me a lesson. It's the hardest thing to do when you go to some of these events like this, you see groups of people talking and you'd say damn they all know each other. I really don't know anyone. It's my first time here. The reality is that even though they're talking and having a good time and having a drink and laughing they may have just met. That was exactly the case that night. The three of us had just met and this person came into our conversation not knowing whether or not we really knew each other and he was welcomed into it and that's what these events are all about. You should never be shy about walking up to somebody and saying hello. You should never be shy about talking to someone like John, talking to someone like myself if we have something that we can help with that's our operation. That's exactly what we do. We're going to give you any and all advice we can. And if someone like John and myself try to get their hooks into you for a commission they're the wrong people to work with. Just walk away, get what you can, and move on. But don't be afraid to stick your hand out and shake your hand and just say hello. It starts a conversation. It's the hardest thing to do but it's also the best thing to do wouldn't you agree? John: I totally agree. Absolutely. Yeah. It's just funny as you're saying about having a stigma you know I think a lot of people feel that way. Especially when they're in business which most people are right? You're in business, you're at a networking event and you're thinking oh other people are thinking that I'm just going to try and sell them. I know this because people email me every day about this saying these things. And I think a lot of times we get stuck in our head a little bit and look I mean I totally get it. I worked for politicians. I've been a lawyer. I think I'm going to round up my career by working for the IRS or as a tax professional so just the most detested professions possible. So I'm used to being in that type of position. I totally get it but look if you approach not thinking about okay how am I going to get this person as a client as soon as possible and you approach thinking okay I'm just going to learn about this person. I'm going to learn what I can do if there's some recommendation I can provide. Maybe they're a huge fan of something else I'm a fan of and we can connect over that. That's it. That's all that matters. You're going to build up trust. You're going to get to know them. And then later there might be the possibility of doing business together but start with that first and that gives you a great foundation. Joe: I agree if you do that enough your pipeline of new business will eventually fill up and it will be continually flowing. John: Absolutely. Joe: John, how do people find out more about you and learn about your experience and get to listen to the podcast and things of that nature? John: Yeah, thank you sir. So Smart Business Revolution is the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts. SmartBusinessRevolution.com is the website. Rise25 is the other website and yeah reach out, I love hearing from people who heard me on a podcast so I appreciate it. It's a pleasure being here. Joe: You're a good man John. Thanks for your time. John: Thank you.   Links: John's LinkedIn Profile Smart Business Revolution Blog & Podcast Rise25 Book recommendation: Give and Take by Adam Grant

Lianna Patch is funny. Not everyone can stand up in front of 150 entrepreneurs and make them laugh, respect her, and want to hire her all at the same time. Yet – that's exactly what she did when I attended the Blue Ribbon Mastermind event in Denver last month (August 2018). When Lianna shares her passion, which is writing copy infused with humor that converts, people make more money. How? Their customers stay on page, get engaged in, and actually read what you write. Oh, and then they buy your product, write reviews and spread the word about your brand. Humor makes people like you. So why not write copy infused with humor? Because you are not funny. Me neither, at least that's what my kids tell me (what do they know…). It is a skill we don't all have, clearly. Episode Highlights: What Lianna does to help clients who come to her with the need for something new. How her techniques to boost add-to-cart conversions as well as purchase conversions. Why it is important to message-match across the board, through the entire purchase and follow-up process. The importance of building the relationship so that if the product is a one-off perhaps that client will be swayed to purchase other items. Lianna shares the biggest mistakes people make when writing online copy. Steps business owners should take to improve copy and what should be first on the list. What makes certain checkouts places that people want to revisit again and again. The importance of grammar and how intentionally not using perfect grammar can work if done the right way. Why Lianna thinks being buttoned up is a thing of e-commerce past. How to grab people's attention with web copy content. Transcription: Mark: Joe you spent a lot of years in the direct response world specifically within the agency world and buying radio ads right? Joe: Yeah. Yes, I did brought a lot of copy. Mark: Brought a lot of copy and this is an area that we're going to talk about today, writing copy. I find for myself when I have to actually write copy it's a completely different mindset from pretty much everything else and it can be difficult to do. Lianna Patch and she is a professional copywriter for specifically conversions right? Joe: Yes Lianna Patch did a presentation at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind in front of 150 entrepreneurs and she writes copy that conversion … calls herself a conversion copywriter which I think is brilliant. I'm sure it's a phrase that lots of people have heard but for some reason, it is brand new to me. Although that's what I did, that's what my contractors did back in my radio days and my online days. But what she did was she infused comedy into her presentation and she infuses comedy into her clients' websites, their emails, their … all of their different campaigns and Mark it works. I'm telling you the presentation was fantastic she gave some examples of what the before and after copy was like and it just made me want to read it. When you go to her website it just makes you want to stay on the website and poke around and look at different things. And throughout the whole podcast, I keep going back to her website and giving examples that I think are just hilarious and make me want to keep reading. And I don't think enough of us e-commerce entrepreneur or SaaS entrepreneurs whatever you want to call yourself infuse the human factor and a little bit of comedy into your content so that people realize you're not just some big corporation that's sending your standard email. It makes a big difference I think. Mark: Absolutely, any time you can get somebody to laugh that's going to loosen them up and also to disarm them a little bit from that and accessible as well. That's fantastic. You need to make sure you send me her website so I can take a look and enjoy some of the copy as well. Joe: Yeah there's some great ideas there you can get right from her website. But this is important stuff, right? Our first line of engagement with our customer is content. There's going to be some visual stuff but there's usually some content as well. So anyone listening that has any online presence or hopes to buy one and do better than the previous owner I would strongly recommend they listen to this entire podcast. Mark: All right, well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley at the Quiet Light Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Today I have a very special guest, her name is Lianna Patch. Lianna, welcome. Lianna: Thank you so much for having me. Joe: You are apparently funny, you're from Punchline Copy. I saw you … I know you're funny because I saw you at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind. There's no question about being apparently funny. Lianna: Okay. Joe: You said some pretty vulgar sayings in front of a big crowd of entrepreneurs and you could have fallen flat on your face or they all could have laughed out loud. And you did it within like the first 60 seconds and I- Lianna: I did. Joe: We all laughed out loud so thank you. Lianna: I'm so glad. Joe: It made us very comfortable being audacious ourselves so thank you for that. And I've looked at your website and I want you to tell folks about yourself but then I'm going to just like comment on a few things as well. So the for the folks listening instead of me doing that introduction, that fancy thing, why don't you tell us who you are, what you do, and what you're all about? Lianna: Sure. So I'm a conversion copyrighter which basically means I don't just make stuff up I base my copy on customer research and what people need to actually hear. And on top of that, I use humor as a tool to help mostly e-commerce stores and bootstrap software businesses connect better with their customers and retain customers longer. Joe: Conversion copywriter, wow. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: I love that. Did you make that up? Lianna: I did not. Joe: Somebody else coined that phrase? Lianna: I believe we can attribute it to the great Joanna Wiebe. She is a fabulous copywriter. I'm pretty sure she came up with the term conversion copywriting. She's the most well-known one. Joe: Okay. Lianna: And I met her in her first copywriter mastermind. Joe: And we will attribute it to Joanna Wiebe. But conversion copywriter really stands out and tells people exactly what you do. It's pretty quick and pretty direct to the point. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And you infuse it with humor so I just want for people that are not watching this video on the home page of your website … where is it, it says… oh, I've got to scroll down a little bit, where is it. All right there's something that says something along the lines of … oh my God it's gone I'm on the wrong page. Really. Anyway, it says something along the lines of blank blank blank AF and it's right there in your face funny as AF. And for those that don't have teenagers and don't understand … I'm sorry for those that don't understand what that means ask your teenager because they do. You have a knock knock joke on your website as well and it says “Knock knock who's there and the answer is a shitload of money.” It's all good. It's all funny and it converts. So tell us about some of the experiences you've had with people that have terrible copy and how you fixed it and what kind of impact it has on their end mind revenue which is what folks are really looking for. Lianna: Yeah. My favorite type of client to work with is someone that comes to me and says okay we did the thing where we hired a professional copywriter and we come off like really cool and corporate and solid and we hate it and it's not working and we need to be more personal and funny please help because they already know the value. They already know that humor is going to help them connect better. So one example that I have been talking about a lot lately because it's exciting … and it's an e-commerce brand that sells wedding rings, it's called Manly Bands. And I came in and worked on some of their product descriptions. And they already have a super fun brand. They were already using humor throughout. I like to think of them as like the Dollar Shave Club of wedding rings but their product descriptions were very short. And they were kind of funny but they weren't really converting. So I went in, wrote longer descriptions, which is funny for some people because they think oh short copy is better. People don't like to read, people will read if you give them a reason to. And we made them funny and we made them personable and kind of weird and they boosted conversions almost across the board; both add to cart conversions and purchase conversions. So that was a really great test result to just be able to point to and say “hey look it works”. Joe: That's great it's a … you know I'm old school direct response, I used to sell stuff on radio. We'd write a 60 second spot ad that had to convert with someone actually calling the 800 number. I started in 1997 as I said before but you have to write copy that converts and get an action. So I love the conversion copy and it's measurable. You also talked about not just on the website where people are looking at the product description, not necessarily in the cart things of that nature. But you really if you have a client and can touch every aspect of their branding campaign do you hone in on the and if yes what kind of things do you do? Lianna: I do try to so I work more on the … I work closer to the purchase and post purchase for attention. That's kind of my jam. So I do a lot of emails. And I really feel like emails are one place we can use humor the most because it's the ability to build that one on one connection. You can be so personal, you can be so weird and funny in email and people will … you know even if it's coming from a brand they'll be like I like this. It feels like a real person in my inbox. Of course, it's top of funnel, sometimes you can scare people away with humor if you go about it the wrong way. It just depends on your brand and how willing you are to test those kinds of things. But if I can I'll address all of those touch points because they should be cohesive. There's got to be a message match between the ad, the landing page, the follow up emails, you know the eventual sale or whatever it is that you guide people to. Joe: I think the instinct of an entrepreneur that's building a brand is to give the impression to the end customer. The first impression is to that hey we're a real company, we're doing things in a very professional manner; which kind of may be boring. I just had a business that won on a contract fairly quickly with multiple offers and his customer service emails and responses were “hey thanks for helping the little guy we're here just taking care of my son join us and really … really appreciate it” that kind of thing. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: I think that does resonate. I think using the word feel, it feels like a real person behind the email. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And really reaches out and helps them quite a bit. So you will touch all aspects of it from … if you can. From the website to … I mean from the email to conversion, would you do follow up emails after the sale as well and work out as well all aspects of it there? Lianna: Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite things to work on. I was just talking to my friend Val Geisler, she's an awesome email strategist about this and we were talking about especially with e-commerce businesses so many people are neglecting the long term post purchase follow up sequence. So someone has bought once and then they just get thrown back into this regular newsletter or sales email cycle. And there's no like follow up and say like hey do you want this product that sort of corresponds to what you bought. You get the review ask emails every now and then or take a survey but there's like two to three emails max after the purchase and then you just get lumped into existing customers. There's no specific long term nurture track to get you back for that second purchase. So that seems like a huge opportunity for most e-commerce stores and for humor because again they've already bought from you once. Now is the time to build the relationship more. Joe: And it's not just spamming them with emails if you're writing good content that's funny and enjoyable and they like reading them. They're probably not going to unsubscribe. Lianna: Right. Joe: Perhaps. Lianna: Right and you can test your sending limits like if you start to see a higher rate of unsubscribes back off; that's not rocket science. Joe: So I did a podcast early in the week with a guy named John Warrilow and he's written several books and he has something called the Value Builder System. And it's all about creating recurring and repeat revenue in your business and I would think that what you're doing is helping build the relationship with the customer so that if they sell a one off product … you said earlier you know hey maybe you might be interested in this too, that follow up email sequence keeps them engaged and maybe perhaps will help them become a repeat customer and buy an additional product along the way. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:10:58.9] Lianna: Yes and even if it's something that they might not need to of … I hear this a lot from mattress companies, I've worked with a few mattress companies you know A. they have other product lines. They have bedding and pillows and things like that accessories. But B. even if you move into a different business completely, if you've built those crazy rabid fans they'll follow you to whatever you do next. Joe: So you've mentioned Man Rings was the first one or something like that. Lianna: Manly Bands. Joe: Manly Bands, I love it. Lianna: It's great. Joe: And a mattress company, so I mean very very diverse product categories here. What other kind of physical product companies do you work with? So that people listening can say oh yeah okay she can help. Lianna: Oh yeah, clothing … I like to work with clothing. Honestly, any consumer product I think is really fun. I have to obviously believe that there's a benefit to it. I've had people come to me. Especially in the supplement world, I'm a little skeptical sometimes of actual benefits. So I like to try the product first and say can I get behind this? And if I can then I'll happily write a copy for it not that I can't but I will. Joe: You know I wish we met …. what is it a decade ago now right? I sold my company in 2010 and boy you would had fun with that. I sold a colon cleansing product. Lianna: Oh great. Joe: We started selling colon cleansing on radio back in 2002 and a TV infomercial in 2003. It went 100% online in 2005 and ultimately built a digestive wellness center around it. Lianna: Okay. Joe: But boy you would have had some fun ones. Lianna: Is that like colon cleansing from the outside in or from the inside out? Joe: Well that's from the inside out. Lianna: Okay. Joe: No it wasn't [inaudible 00:12:39.2]. Lianna: That's easier to sell. Yeah, okay. Joe: And it was … you know for those listening I mean you can't … you think what's fun about my product? You can't … you have to be serious about it something like that. We try to be serious about it and I think it was okay. We got lots and lots of testimonials and people would actually love to be … strangest thing ever people, when we produced a TV infomercial we had a producer travel around the country following up people to give testimonials and they'll actually get on camera and talk about their bowel movements and it's just crazy. And you would have had a great deal of fun with it and we could have made more fun of it and made it more enjoyable for all I guess. But I mean you can … from what I've seen [inaudible 00:13:21.0] for your presentation you kind of make every little aspect of it fun so that the entire feeling of the company is joyful and fun. For instance, the 404 redirect that you put up on the screen at Blue Ribbon Mastermind, can you describe that for the people? Lianna: Yeah so that's one of my favorite places where people aren't expecting humor, to just give them a joke or something weird. And this is … what was it called? I think it was eventcenter.uk or something. The site's not there anymore but it's oh no you hit the wrong link this isn't here choose one of our developers to fire. And it's four guys and if you click one of them he puts his head down in his hands and the rest of them looks relieved and then it says oh no he's only been working here for six months. He was just an intern like you're so horrible. And then it redirects you back to the homepage. Joe: Keeps people on the site versus you hit a 404 redirect … oh my god, this guy is terrible and you leave. Lianna: There's so many great ones, NPR has one too that's oh there's nothing here but here's a bunch of other articles about missing things. And there's an article about like lost luggage, Jimmy Hoffa … you know our retirement, things like that. [inaudible 00:14:28.0] for them like. Joe: That's fantastic. What would you say from your experience and the clients that you've worked with, what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes that they make when writing copy? Lianna: One of the biggest mistakes no matter what industry you're in is making the copy all about you. One of the easiest ways to fix that is to go through it and say how many times do we say we or I versus you the reader because they should always know what's in it for them while they're reading. Joe: Ok so back on the focus of the customer, what kind of things have you seen happen when people … if they want to take one, two, or three steps and try to improve their own copy? Is that step number one? What are the things should they do to try to make a big change and what areas should they focus on first? Is it the tagline on their website? Is it the email? Is it something in the cart? What do you focus on first? Lianna: I'd like to focus on whatever is closest to the actual purchase. So that's going to have the biggest effect on revenue if you can improve your checkout, not just copy but UX. If you're using something that's not an out of the box thing like Shopify you might have some serious UX issues in your checkout that you don't know about. What else- Joe: You're infusing humor in the copy in the checkout? Lianna: If I can. Joe: If you can. Lianna: I was just talking about this this morning. It's interesting how things connect. I think it's Shopify doesn't really let you change the form instructions or form auto-fill like the placeholder text in the checkout but that can be hugely persuasive. And it's a great place to run tests because you can just change something like email address to your email address or your favorite email address and that can have a huge impact on conversions. And obviously changing copy on the buy button can have a big impact too. But all of those things come standard or you can't tweak them unless you're a custom coder. And I think even then it's hard to get that stuff developed so I don't know that's been like a pet peeve of mine with certain checkouts. Joe: You want to be able to touch everything and change it and make it better. Lianna: Yeah because there are … I've been through some check outs that are just delightful and it makes you want to keep going even if it's a multiple screen checkout. There's a … do you know Cards Against Humanity? I've mentioned that at the talk. They have actually a fortune cookie company. Joe: Oh they do? Lianna: It's called OK Cookie and the fortunes are horrific. I have one over there that says you will die at an Arby's in Columbus, Ohio. That's the kind of fortune you get from them. But their check out process is just written the same way that all their other copy is which is very informal. Like pop, your email address in here hit this button to whatever and it can be as simple as a verb change to make people think oh a real person touched this. This isn't just a robot that's going to take my money and maybe not send me these cookies that will make me sad. Joe: Again going back to how the end customer feels in the process. Love it. You talked about grammar and that it's not always best practices to have proper grammar. I think … you know I was in the remedial English class in high school. I didn't have Mrs. Henderson I had Mrs. Lane and she was a step down so my grammar is always kind of poor. We were at a friend's house, I've got 14 and 16 year old boys and the neighbor was copied on an email because … it has something to do with the kids, the kids who are here and she asked my son if he'd already sent that. And he said yes, she goes oh there was a grammatical error and blah blah blah. And it's still read very well, it felt good and it was like from a teenage boy. And you can tell it was from a teenage boy. And the intent was good and I never would have corrected it. And she tried to after the fact you intentionally will misspell things and misspeak or misspoke whatever the case might be from what I can hear and what I've seen is that correct? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Can you talk about that? Lianna: Yes and if it's a weird thing to say because I spent so long as first a copy editor and then a content editor. So I've been like in the nitty gritty line level proofing and the overall structural editing for so long and I was such a stickler for such a long time. And then eventually I had to let go because my heart rate was getting nuts. It just wasn't … that was great for me physically. But I think it's important to do it intentionally so that it doesn't come across as an oversight. So for instance, if you're going to put in a misspelling like I just said gonna, I didn't say going to. Technically you know that's an allusion it's mashing two words together, cutting off the end of a word, that's intentional. It comes across as intentional. Misspelling a word in a subject line can be intentional done the right way. The example that I gave was spelling M-O-R-E more as M-O-A-R because that's kind of internet speak. That's obviously intentional. Even when subject lines do go out with actual unintentional typos they tend to get higher open rates. I just saw one from Wistia they're having an online conference called CouchCon. And there's a subject line with “its” and there should have been an apostrophe in “its” and I marked that unread in my inbox for days because I was like I want to know if they did that on purpose. I don't think they did. Joe: I don't think- Lianna: They got a bunch of replies. Joe: I don't think I would have known if it was proper or not but did I just hear you say that subject lines that have misspellings or grammatical errors actually have a higher open rate? Lianna: Sometimes I mean every … like if you're talking to any conversion copywriter they're going to be like it depends no matter what you ask them. So I have to just give that disclaimer right now; it depends. But I personally have seen it. Lower case subject lines often get a higher open rate because that's the kind of email we receive from our friends and family. We don't bother capitalizing subject lines, especially not title casing each word which I think that's officially dead now in the email marketing world. I haven't seen a ton of emails in my actual inbox so definitely in my spam folder. Joe: You've never inquired on a Quiet Light listing because I know that with my follow up drip campaigns I will capitalize the first letter of each word in the subject line. I need to stop that is what you're saying? Lianna: [inaudible 00:20:21.1] test for you just … yeah start running an alternative version of each of those emails with A. more [inaudible 00:20:26.2] well, if you were to do a true test you would just uncapitalize the rest of the sentence but you can try more conversational subject line. Then I could do a whole thing on subject lines so I like them a lot but yeah making- Joe: So it's the first point of contact- Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And it never occurred to me to chill out a little bit and be more casual even though you know we were … and hopefully anybody listening will take this and apply it to their own business but we are online business brokers. We're selling businesses for a million dollars or whatever the case might be and sometimes we think we've got to be buttoned up and serious. We're working with entrepreneurs. We all work remotely, around the country, around the world in Brian's case and we try to be professional and serious but we can be professional and casual and funny at the same time. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:21:09.9] on our subject lines. Lianna: There's a scale I think you don't have to go- Joe: Are you telling me to loosen up? Lianna: A little bit. I mean you … do you have that top button undone? Is that a- Joe: I do. Yeah. Lianna: See we're great, yeah, no tie. Joe: It's hot. Lianna: I don't think [inaudible 00:21:22.6] video so I just look like garbage so you know. Joe: I'm in North Carolina, Lianna is in New Orleans did I say that right? Lianna: No. I'm going to … no. Joe: Say it, give it to me. Go ahead. Lianna: New Orleans born and raised. Joe: You actually have to enunciate it? Lianna: Not New Orleans. New Orleans. Joe: New Orleans not New Orleans. Lianna: [inaudible 00:21:42.3] people say New Orleans. Joe: All right it's New Orleans. Lianna: Never New Orleans unfortunately. Joe: Okay all right. Well, we're both hot and you know figuratively anyway. And that's why I have my top button undone. What other things can people focus on besides of the subject line, some of the stuff in the first point of contact with customers, what other little weird places do you think that they could focus on and try to be a little bit funny or a little more personal that the average person wouldn't look at that you've seen? Lianna: One of my favorite places to look at is copy surrounding a call to action. So any time you're going to ask somebody to do something you should probably be addressing their objections and previewing what's going to come next. And it's really nice to see a human and funny touch around the ask. So I can't member if I mentioned this when you saw me speak but I wrote a call to action to start a free trial for a software product. And normally underneath you would see small text that says no sign up required or credit card required or whatever your information is safe with us that kind of standard objection reducing stuff. We wrote … oh I wrote a copy there that said we do ask for your credit card but it's just because we love online shopping. It's just a little reward for someone reading to feel like okay all right we're good. And obviously, that person has to have a sense of humor because if they take it seriously then they're not going to sign up but who is your target customer is that a person without a sense of humor? No. Joe: Again personalize it, make it feel better. I'm looking at your site now and I must have moved my mouse off the screen and something popped up and it says I'd love to email you and there's three O's in the word love. Lianna: Yes. Joe: Now what is down below there, it says subscribe now and then nah, fam. Lianna: Nah, fam? Joe: What does that mean? Lianna: It's a no thanks, it's another way to say no thanks. So you can just … it's good to know that it's not coming across entirely clear to everyone. Joe: Well. Lianna: It's like you can sign up or no, fam. Joe: But I can tell like a human wrote this which is again exactly what is supposed to happen. And for those again listening and not watching so this … all of you have this exit intent … exit pop ups on websites. This one is personal and funny and I'm actually reading it. Normally I just X out, but now I'm reading it because you spelled the word love wrong, no fam; I don't know what that is. And I believe it's you in the image. Are you drinking coffee out of a box? Is that what's happening there? Lianna: Drinking box wine. Joe: Yeah. So there's a picture of Lianna sitting at her desk, her laptop is open and she's got a box wine up above her head and she's boozing it up. It's very very entertaining and it made me stop and look at it where I go to all of your websites whenever I'm doing work with you and if there's a pop up I generally just quick X as quickly as I can. So very cool just one other- Lianna: Yeah that's a great place the exit intent pop up is so hard to get people's attention and people often think like you know I have only two sentences or I have to cut my offer just $20 off and it has to be no longer than that. But I worked with a client we … this is for my other business SNAP Copy so it's me and my business partner James Turner, we optimized his opt in offer to get people on his list for free planning. He runs a productivity website and the headline that we ended up going with was hey don't leave without your goodie bag. And it was boosted opt-ins by 129% and there was some additional copy and it was a pretty long paragraph of what they were going to get when they signed up. But people read it and signed up a lot more than they did when it said get free planners. Joe: Hey don't leave without your goodie bag and it was an online thing just to get people to sign up and was there like I [inaudible 00:25:19.8] a goodie bag as a swag bag when you go to an event like Blue Ribbon Mastermind. What kind of goodie bag was it? Was it just something you could get electronically? Lianna: Yeah it was a digital goodie bag. It was like free weekly agenda or a free monthly planner. He has a lot of free resources like that. Joe: But he didn't say free gift it said hey don't leave without your goodie bag? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Simple. You think it's simple but it's- Lianna: Yeah. Joe: People get too buttoned up I think. Lianna: Finding new ways to say also the things that people are already accustomed to because we've seen free gifts so much, we've seen claim my deal a lot. I feel like that's kind of … it's still working because it's very clear but if you can find another way to say something that doesn't obscure the meaning of the copy then it'll get people's attention. And they're like oh I haven't seen that before. Joe: Okay. So pretty simple stuff but not something I think everybody can do. You have a special skill. You're funny, you actually do stand-up comedy as well right? Lianna: I do. Joe: You do. Are you funny? Of course, you are right? Lianna: People … you know I feel like I want to write a bit about that but it might be to hack because there have been better comedians writing bits about that. But someone did that to me the other day she was like so I don't get it you do stand-up but like you're not funny right now. And I was like maybe I'm not inspired. Joe: Ah. Lianna: You're not a good audience, I don't know. Joe: I'm glad I didn't say that. I think what you do is fantastic. You know back to my radio direct response days I would write 60 second ad copy and we would be able to get direct responses; how many people called in when we gave out that phone number after 60 seconds. And so we knew exactly how well the copy worked. You're a conversion copywriter so you found a way to do the same thing and boost conversion when somebody visits a website or open emails and things of that nature. Do you find your clients doing split testing with your copy against with the original copy or things of that nature or did they just say this is really good it's funny let's go ahead and just put that in place and then they see how it works for a week or do they do an actual split test? Lianna: If … so this is like this is where the cobbler has no shoes because I should be making sure that they do that but sometimes my clients are in that stage between small and medium business where they don't really have the team to split test appropriately or like they don't want to learn how to use Google Optimize, Optimizely, or any other split testing tool. So usually it's we see how the control over the original copy was doing then we implement the new copy and it sort of functions as the test and we see what the lift is; the uplift or downlift usually. Usually up. Joe: Usually up, okay. Well, I had an experience many many years ago where we had … when we take the phone calls and someone didn't want to buy the product we would get their name and address and would send them out this simple little trifle brochure. Really simple, black and white or I think there was blue and white and you could tell that it was somebody stuffed the envelope and we hand wrote it and it went out. It was from that person that you talked to on the phone. We had a consultant come in and say oh that's not very professional, we need to step it up, we need to get a multi unfold brochure, colors and charts and graphs and all this stuff and of course we have to print out the addresses and make a professional. And conversion dropped by at least 50% and it was a real eye opener because it was in that personal touch and feel. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And so I think everything that you said up on the stage at Blue Ribbon Mastermind made me want to have you here because I've seen it firsthand and I know how much a word here and there and a feeling here and there converts. And it's really tough online, it's getting easier and you know hopefully some of your work is being tracked with before or split tested and so your clients know. But I think that all I know is when I go to a site like yours I want to stay on it and I want to look. Lianna: Good. Joe: As opposed to a pop up like I know you got a rubber chicken being cut in half and blood spurting, it's cute and funny so I love it. I think what you do is fantastic. How exactly would people reach out to you? Is it simply punchlinecopy.com? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Can they get a sort of assessment? How do you work with your clients? Lianna: Yeah so I have different product test services on my site. Sometimes people just need … they want to use me as like an ad hoc email copywriter for instance. They'll come in and like buy one or two emails and they'll say rewrite my abandoned cart email because again it's close to purchase. Or rewrite my welcome email so I get fewer unsubscribes when I add someone to my list. So I have one off emails, I have something called upper cuts which is where I do an audit of your landing page from my heuristic perspective. So I'll take any customer research data that the clients have for these kinds of audits; the more the better. But I'll just look at it and say like this UX is garbage like this photo doesn't open, I can't zoom around the product, the call to action isn't visible enough from far away. And then I'll rewrite the copy line by line. And then I also do custom projects and I've got an intake form there. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to work with me. Joe: Can you be funny in a sponsored ad or a Google ad? Do you work with anybody in those regards? Lianna: I don't do a lot of top of funnel acquisitions. Joe: It's a little tricky. Lianna: I've tried … I mean I've done it. I haven't run ads for my own business in forever. I probably should but I'm the first result for funny copywriter so who needs to? Am I right? Joe: So one other simple clean example is again … and people could just go to your website and go oh that's cool, that's cool, that's cool, and get some ideas. Again punchlinecopy.com but you know folks you probably have a chat now talk to us little thing down in the lower right hand corner of your website so somebody can chat with you. Lianna's has a picture of her. Lianna: It's a bit [inaudible 00:30:59.5]. Joe: A caricature of you and it says you there and it has you looking up over the little pop up bubble as opposed to the standard stuff which is great. Again it's personal and makes it me want to click it just to see if you are there. Lianna: Awesome. I'm not because I'm doing this but I just- Joe: Everybody go to Punchline Copy and click you there and see what happens. Lianna: Or send me an email. Most of the stuff on my site that I think people like the most is just stuff that makes me laugh because I thought it was hilarious to have that little thing pop up in the corner. Joe: I like it. I like it all. Well, I think it would be great if some folks can use your sevices. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And we have people on that I think can help more than anything else whether that's somebody that is in the process of trying to grow their business and make it more valuable or some of that's going to buy one and tweak it and make more valuable than what they bought it for. And I think copy is so essential because if it converts you are a … again conversion copywriter that just gets them more value for the money that they spent on advertising. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: So it is fantastic, we will put your details in the bottom of the show notes so people can reach out to you and any last minute thoughts on copy that people should think about [inaudible 00:32:18.1] got here? Lianna: I mean I always want to challenge people to just try a joke somewhere. Like take your most boring email in any of your series and go in and add a joke or add an aside, you know add a PS that's kind of weird and see what happens. Joe: Just to see what happens add a PS; I like it. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Well PS folks thank you for listening to the Quiet Light Podcast, I appreciate it. Lianna, thank you so much for your time. You are awesome. Lianna: Thank you. And so are you. Joe: Well I appreciate that thank you. Links: PunchlineCopy.com Punchline's Facebook Page Lianna on LinkedIn

After discussing a tweet Joe JUST sent, we talk about some of my favorite recent podcast interviews. Also, talk about a high profile lawsuit that just ended is covered and how Joe’s mind and decisions are clouded by the Dark Side on a daily basis. The post After Dark Episode 185: Inspector Hammett & Lester appeared first on Longbox Heroes.

After discussing a tweet Joe JUST sent, we talk about some of my favorite recent podcast interviews. Also, talk about a high profile lawsuit that just ended is covered and how Joe’s mind and decisions are clouded by the Dark Side on a daily basis. The post After Dark Episode 185: Inspector Hammett & Lester appeared first on Longbox Heroes.